From technobug at prelim.org Sun Mar 1 00:36:46 2015 From: technobug at prelim.org (Technobug) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2015 23:36:46 -0700 Subject: Miscellaneous Freebies In-Reply-To: <54BFC01E.5010002@bitsavers.org> References: <20150120160244.85CA018C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <54BEF977.70706@shiresoft.com> <54BFC01E.5010002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The 11/780 logo has been claimed. The Mac Power PC wasn't part of the offfer... ->CRC From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Mar 1 05:42:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:42:33 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-01 06:14, Jon Elson wrote: > On 02/28/2015 04:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did >>>> exist for the PDP-7. >>> > I looked up the instruction set of the PDP-7, ghastly little machine, > basically > a PDP-8 extended to 18 bits. Stored the return address in the first word > of the subroutine, just one accumulator, conditionals were done with > a skip instruction, so you did this skip / jump structure for conditional > branches, unless the conditional code was only one instruction. All the > stuff I disliked on the PDP-8. One oddity was there was a 13-bit address > field in the instruction, but it was possible to have more than 8K words > of memory on the machine. Another oddity is there were both > ones-complement and twos-complement add instructions. I guess > the designer just couldn't decide which arithmetic representation to use? The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. Sometimes it's really handy. Return address in the first word is also not so bad, unless you want to recurse, or have reentrant code. I haven't properly looked at the 18-bit machines, but I suspect the 13 bit address field is not much different from the 7 bit address field of a PDP-8 instruction. The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. I suspect that is because they really had decided that twos complement was the future. However, the DEC 18-bit series really started with the PDP-1, and all follow on machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the PDP-1 was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC built that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to keep the capability, I guess. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 1 10:41:53 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 10:41:53 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> On 03/01/2015 05:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. Sometimes it's > really handy. Yeah, SOMETIMES. But, a conditional branch ended up always being two instructions. > Return address in the first word is also not so bad, > unless you want to recurse, or have reentrant code. > > I haven't properly looked at the 18-bit machines, but I > suspect the 13 bit address field is not much different > from the 7 bit address field of a PDP-8 instruction. > > The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. > I suspect that is because they really had decided that > twos complement was the future. However, the DEC 18-bit > series really started with the PDP-1, and all follow on > machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the PDP-1 > was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC > built that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to > keep the capability, I guess. > I did a bit of work on the LINC, which was ones complement. The messy bit was that if you compared negative zero against positive zero, you got a not-equal indication. So, you needed two compare strategies to be sure to know that -0 really did equal +0. UGLY! Of course, it would have cost a bunch of gates to fix that glitch. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 1 11:59:12 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 09:59:12 -0800 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> On 3/1/15 3:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. It makes sense on machines with a single word order code. Incr instruction pointer by one and you're done. It makes much less sense on multi-word order codes where you have to crack the instruction to see how far to advance the instruction pointer. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Mar 1 13:36:37 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:36:37 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54F36A45.5070802@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-01 17:41, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/01/2015 05:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. Sometimes it's really handy. > Yeah, SOMETIMES. But, a conditional branch ended up always being two > instructions. Happens on a PDP-11 as well, when you want to branch further than the branch instructions allows, in which case you instead have to branch around a jump. But 256 words range is definitely better than just 1 word range. :-) Best, of course, is if you can get both schools... >> Return address in the first word is also not so bad, unless you want >> to recurse, or have reentrant code. >> >> I haven't properly looked at the 18-bit machines, but I suspect the 13 >> bit address field is not much different from the 7 bit address field >> of a PDP-8 instruction. >> >> The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. I suspect >> that is because they really had decided that twos complement was the >> future. However, the DEC 18-bit series really started with the PDP-1, >> and all follow on machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the >> PDP-1 was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC built >> that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to keep the >> capability, I guess. >> > I did a bit of work on the LINC, which was ones complement. The messy > bit was that > if you compared negative zero against positive zero, you got a not-equal > indication. > So, you needed two compare strategies to be sure to know that -0 really > did equal +0. > UGLY! Of course, it would have cost a bunch of gates to fix that glitch. You won't get an argument from me about that. Ones complement really is not something I like. And obviously DEC wasn't going for it either, witnessed by the fact that no machine after the PDP-1 used it. (Unless you count the backwards compatible stuff to the PDP-1). Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 1 14:01:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:01:21 -0800 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F36A45.5070802@update.uu.se> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> <54F36A45.5070802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54F37011.3010201@sydex.com> On 03/01/2015 11:36 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You won't get an argument from me about that. Ones complement really is > not something I like. And obviously DEC wasn't going for it either, > witnessed by the fact that no machine after the PDP-1 used it. (Unless > you count the backwards compatible stuff to the PDP-1). I don't know--I'm of mixed feelings about it. I've been on both sides. If -0 and +0 both tested as zero, that was fine in most cases. Worst case, you added +0 to the value in question, which would have the effect of converting -0 to +0. Ones complement has the curious benefit that some bit-twiddling operations can be very useful and not possible otherwise in two's complement. See: http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/cute_tricks.html for similar tracks on the Univac 1100 series. What I've developed a definite distaste for is condition codes on machines with significant register files. I can understand their application in memory-to-memory architectures, but on register or register-memory, they make little sense and get in the way, particularly when scheduling instructions. For me, that's one of the biggest drawbacks of the x86 architecture. --Chuck From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Mar 1 08:19:40 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 15:19:40 +0100 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Message-ID: <201503011419.t21EJdQi014780-t21EJdQj014780@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> I have a couple of 8" drives Mitsubishi M2863 slim type that I recovered I think around on 1990 both in excellent conditions with which I created images and written several floppy disks 8". For some reason, including my incompetence, both their spindle motor do not run any more. And powering correctly with only +24Vdc the circuit part of the engine rotation control of the disk (called spindle motor) begins to smoke near a chip LB1620. The schematic contained in the maintenance manual of the drive includes components of other different model of spindle motor circuit. If that were possible, how could I to be able to run the drives correctly: reusing partly engine or even replacing it with analogous maybe even creating handcrafted a motor with pieces of recovery and manage the number of RPM (I think 360rpm for 8" drive) possibly with special circuit ? At this moment there is a shortcircuit between +24vdc pin and ground pin. Pics https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 references M2896-63_Maintenance_Manual https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rhukkr1xf78m8c/M2896-63_Maintenance_Manual.pdf?dl =0 M2896-63_Half-Height_Drive_Brochure https://www.dropbox.com/s/elmj3nwz59dz2eo/M2896-63_Half-Height_Drive_Brochur e.pdf?dl=0 Spindle motor SRC SHINANO TOKKI CORP. MADE IN JAPAN 702V Modello DLF-3ME DC24V Any suggestion is welcome. Enrico From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 1 10:24:49 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 08:24:49 -0800 Subject: Nicolet stuff In-Reply-To: References: , <003601cfe4d3$573d47e0$05b7d7a0$@xs4all.nl>, , <543876FE.2020801@bitsavers.org>, <005401cfe52e$da25cb40$8e7161c0$@xs4all.nl>, <543950E4.5040906@sbcglobal.net>, <00bf01cfe570$9d17bc30$d7473490$@com>, <000101cfe656$44e92620$cebb7260$@classiccmp.org>, , , , Message-ID: Hi Bob I'd gotten the hard drive for the Nicolet but not had time to fiddle with it. I'm currently redoing my code for the floppy drive on my Nicolet. I have a couple disk platters that should be able to be used for the hard drive ( and one that had a head crash ). I'd cleaned up the heads on the drive and with the new disk, seems OK. I've not fiddle with it since though. I was wondering if you'd like to fiddle with it on your Nicolet. You could barrow it for some time and install the demon code on it. On a separate issue, when I'd gotten my Nicolet, I had 2 failed ICs. One was a 7474 and the other was a DTL with expanded input ( I swapped a location that didn't need the expander input and use a TTL there for that part ). I just got started again and found the address wouldn't increment. After some frantic trouble shooting ( knowing it was Saturday and most places would be closed tomorrow for parts ), I finally traced it to a bad 7404. It is not easy without an extender card. I'd attach a couple wires to locations I wanted to see and stick the card back in. I must have pulled an inserted two of the cards 30 times. I hope is wiped the connector pins good and clean. If you should decide to make an extender, I'd split the cost of the boards with you. I think it would be easy to make three separate extenders and put a rail across them to hold them together. It wouldn't be too bad to just have the three separate ones and be careful connecting things. I believe they are just three 100 pin connectors, like S100 boards use. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 1 13:46:41 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 11:46:41 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: References: , <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <54F36CA1.20009@sydex.com> On 03/01/2015 11:13 AM, tony duell wrote: > Yes, if you replace the LB1620 then the new one might fail too. But you'll not get it working > without trying things. My suggestion to Enrico was to pull the driver transistors that switch between the +24 and the motor windings. If his case is usual there are three of these (often Darlingtons). If the board still smokes when power is applied, you know that the fault does not lie in the motor nor in the driver transistors. I received no response, FWIW. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 1 14:27:00 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 12:27:00 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: References: , <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> , <54F36CA1.20009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54F37614.40608@sydex.com> On 03/01/2015 11:53 AM, tony duell wrote: > Are there any discrete transistors for this? I know the diagram in the > service manual shows them, but that is a different version of the motor > and the LB1620 can normally drive the windings directly. I don't remember > seeing them in the photos. I found the datasheet for the LB1620 and apparently the thing is perfectly capable of directly driving the motor windings. I note that a small (10uF to 47uF) electrolytic is specified between each of the windings and +24 Vcc. Were one of those to short, that would indeed have nasty consequences as the output of the LB1620 is via a complementary pair operating totem-pole fashion for each phase. So, in absence of a readily available LB1620, I'd start with the per-winding caps. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 1 10:42:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 16:42:10 +0000 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503011419.t21EJdQi014780-t21EJdQj014780@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503011419.t21EJdQi014780-t21EJdQj014780@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: > > I have a couple of 8" drives Mitsubishi M2863 slim type that I recovered I > think around on 1990 both in excellent conditions with which I created > images and written several floppy disks 8". For some reason, including my > incompetence, both their spindle motor do not run any more. And powering OK, what did you do? Seriously, it may help in finding what needs to be replaced. > correctly with only +24Vdc the circuit part of the engine rotation control > of the disk (called spindle motor) begins to smoke near a chip LB1620. The > schematic contained in the maintenance manual of the drive includes > components of other different model of spindle motor circuit. If that were > possible, how could I to be able to run the drives correctly: reusing partly > engine or even replacing it with analogous maybe even creating handcrafted a > motor with pieces of recovery and manage the number of RPM (I think 360rpm > for 8" drive) possibly with special circuit ? Is there a good reason for not restoring this spindle motor to its original form? The TC9142 chip is a well-known motor speed controller PLL thing, if it's the one I am thinking of it has a pin called 33/45 which indicates where it was intended to be used :-) I've come across it in disk spindle motors, laser printers (the Canon CX uses them for main and scanner motor control, etc). The LB1620 looks to be the motor commutation IC. It takes in signals from 3 (I guess) hall effect sensors, these are just visible, I think, in the track-side PCB photos. The IC then drives the 3-phase motor windings, most of the time they are star connected. You can get data sheets on both these ICs from http://www.datasheetarchive.com The motor PCB seems to have a 3 pin connector on it, I would guess +24V, ground and motor_run. I should therefore be easily possible to run it on its own for testing. I think the first thing you need to do is find that short. The LB1620 is possibly at fault here, maybe desolder it and see if the short goes away. -tony From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Mar 1 11:56:15 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 18:56:15 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". Not having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a Chinese power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure the resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i get 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep a finger on it. I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a control. The point is that I have no experience on these components. Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di tony duell Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 17:42 A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Oggetto: RE: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > I have a couple of 8" drives Mitsubishi M2863 slim type that I recovered I > think around on 1990 both in excellent conditions with which I created > images and written several floppy disks 8". For some reason, including my > incompetence, both their spindle motor do not run any more. And powering OK, what did you do? Seriously, it may help in finding what needs to be replaced. > correctly with only +24Vdc the circuit part of the engine rotation control > of the disk (called spindle motor) begins to smoke near a chip LB1620. The > schematic contained in the maintenance manual of the drive includes > components of other different model of spindle motor circuit. If that were > possible, how could I to be able to run the drives correctly: reusing partly > engine or even replacing it with analogous maybe even creating handcrafted a > motor with pieces of recovery and manage the number of RPM (I think 360rpm > for 8" drive) possibly with special circuit ? Is there a good reason for not restoring this spindle motor to its original form? The TC9142 chip is a well-known motor speed controller PLL thing, if it's the one I am thinking of it has a pin called 33/45 which indicates where it was intended to be used :-) I've come across it in disk spindle motors, laser printers (the Canon CX uses them for main and scanner motor control, etc). The LB1620 looks to be the motor commutation IC. It takes in signals from 3 (I guess) hall effect sensors, these are just visible, I think, in the track-side PCB photos. The IC then drives the 3-phase motor windings, most of the time they are star connected. You can get data sheets on both these ICs from http://www.datasheetarchive.com The motor PCB seems to have a 3 pin connector on it, I would guess +24V, ground and motor_run. I should therefore be easily possible to run it on its own for testing. I think the first thing you need to do is find that short. The LB1620 is possibly at fault here, maybe desolder it and see if the short goes away. -tony = From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 1 13:13:50 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:13:50 +0000 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: , <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: > > Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: > > It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read > through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". Not > having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc > and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a Chinese > power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few > seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied I think it is very likely you have damaged the LB1620, and maybe the other ICs too. > I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= > LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 This IC was originally designed to operate the head drum motor in a VCR, and at least in the UK some old-establised TV spares companies still have it. I have no idea if you can find it in Italy. What _I_ would do is to trace out the schematic of your spindle motor board. You will probably have to dismantle the mechanical part to see the windings and hall effect sensors. There may be a wiggly PCB track round the outside of this area, just inside the rotor. This is the FG (frequency generator) track, it produces an AC signal that is fed to the TC9142 chip to measure the motor speed. Most of the time you can temporarily remove the TC9142 and associated components (I notice an 8 pin IC on the board too, that is probably a single or dual op-amp), and run just the commutation IC. The motor will run far too fast, but if it can be got to run then the windings, etc, are OK. Yes, if you replace the LB1620 then the new one might fail too. But you'll not get it working without trying things. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 1 13:53:47 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:53:47 +0000 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <54F36CA1.20009@sydex.com> References: , <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> , <54F36CA1.20009@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, if you replace the LB1620 then the new one might fail too. But you'll not get it working > > without trying things. > > My suggestion to Enrico was to pull the driver transistors that switch > between the +24 and the motor windings. If his case is usual there are > three of these (often Darlingtons). If the board still smokes when > power is applied, you know that the fault does not lie in the motor nor > in the driver transistors. Are there any discrete transistors for this? I know the diagram in the service manual shows them, but that is a different version of the motor and the LB1620 can normally drive the windings directly. I don't remember seeing them in the photos. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 1 15:08:09 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 13:08:09 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503011756.t21HuEHe007725-t21HuEHf007725@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <01037004-744A-4FB1-9763-B0CDC4990FA3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: > > It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read > through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". Not > having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc > and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a Chinese > power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few > seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied > also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and > cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure the > resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i get > 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There > are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. > In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep a > finger on it. > I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= > LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 > > The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a > control. > > The point is that I have no experience on these components. > Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and on both boards they look like they have been replaced. D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 on the LB1620. The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to 14V, not 15V. Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what voltage they are. I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Mar 1 15:12:06 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 22:12:06 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <54F37614.40608@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201503012112.t21LC5Qt031427-t21LC5Qu031427@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Well, for 1st thanks for your suggestions. I tried to desolder any sigle pin of each component between +24vdc and ground from almost one side, but the short circuit remains. So the only pin that remained are those of LB1620. I ordered 2 from ebay. It takes almost 2/3 weeks for the shipping from usa to me. The pcb I have THERE IS NOT that described in the last page of the maintenance manual. IT NOT have power transistor to drive the motor. The only one transistor on the pcb not appear to be a power transistor Connectred to the LB1620 there are 3 electrolitic caps of 22microf 15Vdc, 3 very small resistor 6,8ohm, and 3 ceramic caps of 4700picofarad. The smoke seem to come just from one of there last one, but it appears clean. I will try to desolder the LB1620 tomorrow to check if there will be more the short circuit between +24vdc and the ground. 3 things: 1) changing the lb1620 not means that could be more components broken even if the short circuit will not any more 2) what kind of socket has the LB1620. it is not dual in line DIP. Is it exist a socket for it? Or have I to solder 2 line of pins separate by them? 3) Why do not use a graetz bridge to power this pcb? Almost inverting the power would save the pcb forever.... https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 Enrico From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 1 15:39:04 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:39:04 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> On 03/01/2015 11:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/1/15 3:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. > > It makes sense on machines with a single word order code. > Incr instruction > pointer by one and you're done. It makes much less sense > on multi-word order > codes where you have to crack the instruction to see how > far to advance the > instruction pointer. > Oh, I KNOW why they did it, it was a VERY simple operation to wire up in the control logic of the CPU. But, I really like the instruction layout of the PDP-11, which was a VERY different paradigm, entirely! On the PDP-5/8 and the -7, I am guessing they DON'T incr the PC an extra time, they set up for increment through the main adder, and then make a carry-in if they want to double-increment the PC. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 1 15:40:19 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 14:40:19 -0700 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F34151.5070207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54F38743.7050409@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/1/2015 9:41 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/01/2015 05:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. Sometimes it's really handy. > Yeah, SOMETIMES. But, a conditional branch ended up always being two > instructions. >> Return address in the first word is also not so bad, unless you want >> to recurse, or have reentrant code. >> >> I haven't properly looked at the 18-bit machines, but I suspect the 13 >> bit address field is not much different from the 7 bit address field >> of a PDP-8 instruction. >> >> The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. I suspect >> that is because they really had decided that twos complement was the >> future. However, the DEC 18-bit series really started with the PDP-1, >> and all follow on machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the >> PDP-1 was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC built >> that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to keep the >> capability, I guess. >> > I did a bit of work on the LINC, which was ones complement. The messy > bit was that > if you compared negative zero against positive zero, you got a not-equal > indication. > So, you needed two compare strategies to be sure to know that -0 really > did equal +0. > UGLY! Of course, it would have cost a bunch of gates to fix that glitch. > > Jon The problem with ones compliment, is the end around carry for multi word arithmetic. I still think that ones compliment is the better format. Skip on zero would be signed or unsigned. Ben. From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Mar 1 15:56:14 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:56:14 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54F38AFE.6080603@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-01 22:39, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/01/2015 11:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 3/1/15 3:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> The SKIP paradigm isn't so bad, in my mind. >> >> It makes sense on machines with a single word order code. Incr >> instruction >> pointer by one and you're done. It makes much less sense on multi-word >> order >> codes where you have to crack the instruction to see how far to >> advance the >> instruction pointer. >> > Oh, I KNOW why they did it, it was a VERY simple operation to wire up > in the control logic of the CPU. But, I really like the instruction > layout of > the PDP-11, which was a VERY different paradigm, entirely! > > On the PDP-5/8 and the -7, I am guessing they DON'T incr the PC an > extra time, they set up for increment through the main adder, and then > make a carry-in if they want to double-increment the PC. I don't think so. On the PDP-8 at least, the increment of the PC is done at different clock phases for different reasons, and they are not combined. I/O peripherals can also increment the PC, and it happens at a defined time. The clock state machine of the PDP-8 is somewhat complex compared to more "modern" machines. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 1 16:03:23 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 15:03:23 -0700 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F38AFE.6080603@update.uu.se> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> <54F38AFE.6080603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54F38CAB.2030709@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/1/2015 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I don't think so. On the PDP-8 at least, the increment of the PC is done > at different clock phases for different reasons, and they are not > combined. I/O peripherals can also increment the PC, and it happens at a > defined time. > The clock state machine of the PDP-8 is somewhat complex compared to > more "modern" machines. I suspect all of the classic machines of the 60's era, would have similar timing since it was the split cycle of core memory the defined your major timing states. > Johnny Any how, Bitsavers has all the details where hard ware manuals said more that "Made in . From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Mar 1 16:10:05 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:10:05 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F38CAB.2030709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> <54F38AFE.6080603@update.uu.se> <54F38CAB.2030709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <54F38E3D.8070500@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-01 23:03, ben wrote: > On 3/1/2015 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> I don't think so. On the PDP-8 at least, the increment of the PC is done >> at different clock phases for different reasons, and they are not >> combined. I/O peripherals can also increment the PC, and it happens at a >> defined time. >> The clock state machine of the PDP-8 is somewhat complex compared to >> more "modern" machines. > > I suspect all of the classic machines of the 60's era, would have > similar timing since it was the split cycle of core memory the defined > your major timing states. Uh... No. The timing in the PDP-8 is very specific to the PDP-8. A cycle contains four states. Different operations in the CPU instruction execution happens at different states. The length of each state is specific to that state. Admittedly, states in which memory is accesses were defined based on the speed of core memory, but that is just a small part of the picture. Some states only exists for certain instructions. Indirect dereferenceing only happens if the instruction has the indirect bit set, and the DMA state only happens if there is a DMA request active (or Data Break as it was called). The whole time state machine is built based on how the PDP-8 instructions work. It's far from as generic like you suggest. > Any how, Bitsavers has all the details where hard ware manuals said more > that "Made in . Yes. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 1 17:05:54 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:05:54 -0500 Subject: One's complement - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/03/15 6:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-01 06:14, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 02/28/2015 04:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did >>>>> exist for the PDP-7. >>>> >> I looked up the instruction set of the PDP-7, ghastly little machine, >> basically >> a PDP-8 extended to 18 bits. ... > > ... > > The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. I suspect > that is because they really had decided that twos complement was the > future. However, the DEC 18-bit series really started with the PDP-1, > and all follow on machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the > PDP-1 was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC built > that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to keep the capability, > I guess. Studying the CDC 6000 instruction set (through the Grishman book) really gives me the impression one's complement would be quite a headache to use correctly. --Toby > > Johnny > From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 1 17:13:57 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:13:57 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> References: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20150301231357.GA3301@lonesome.com> On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 09:59:12AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > It makes sense on machines with a single word order code. Incr instruction > pointer by one and you're done. It makes much less sense on multi-word order > codes where you have to crack the instruction to see how far to advance the > instruction pointer. OK, true story time. Those who have been around computing for a while will be able to put a pretty close range on my age with this one. My _second_ computer was a PDP-8. Remote timeshared. IIRC an 8/M. I _do_ remember what happened when the 4th user logged in: (nothing) It was usable with 1 or 2 users. But my confusion was the assembler manual. I looked at the example listings and thought "but how does it know in what order to execute the instructions?" You see ... my *first* machine was a Bendix (although late enough to be labeled Control Data) G-15. Those have drum memories. 29-bit words, too. And, due to rotatinal latency, the address of the next instruction is _contained_ in each instruction. You can imagine the games that were played to optimize (and, in a few specific use-cases, pessimize) access time over an instruction stream. I think it took me a good 30 minutes to puzzle out "oh, I guess they just use the next instruction in the sequence." (Yes, I already understood test-and-branch operations. I mean, other than that.) mcl From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 18:06:46 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 17:06:46 -0700 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I looked up the instruction set of the PDP-7, ghastly little machine, > basically a PDP-8 extended to 18 bits. Actually it's basically a PDP-4, which was basically a PDP-1 though not binary-compatible. Those were both 18-bit. The PDP-5 (and thus PDP-8) were basically a PDP-4 shortened to 12 bits. > All the stuff I disliked on the PDP-8. One man's Mede is another man's Persian. Some people consider the simplicity of the PDP-8 architecture to be quite elegant. Obviously that style of architecture is not prevalent today, though some vestiges of it can still be seen in current production, e.g. in the Microchip PIC 8-bit microcontrollers. > One oddity was there was a 13-bit address > field in the instruction, but it was possible to have more than 8K words > of memory on the machine. All of the DEC 12-bit and 18-bit machines did that, at least as an option if not as a standard feature of the base machine. For that matter, many of the 16-bit machines (PDP-11) and many of the 36-bit machines (PDP-10) did that also, but in rather different ways. On the PDP-1, there were two *different* memory extension options that were not compatible, the Type 15 and the Type 171. Apparently the Type 15 wasn't considered flexible enough, so they designed the Type 171. Most PDP-1 systems that had memory extension used the Type 171. It is possible that machines originally equipped with the Type 15 might have been field-upgraded to the Type 171, because most PDP-1 software that supported memory extension at all only supported the Type 171. (Most PDP-1 software didn't support either, and ran in 4K.) All the later DEC architectures had only a single kind of memory extension, which on the 12-bit and 18-bit machines was similar to the Type 171. The PDP-11 memory management supported 18-bit physical addresses on some machines, and selectable 18- or 22-bit on others. > Another oddity is there were both ones-complement and twos-complement add instructions. I guess > the designer just couldn't decide which arithmetic representation to use? The PDP-1 used one's complement arithmetic, though MIT modified one to also have two's complement. DEC must have decided that two's complement was more useful, because the PDP-4, while not binary-compatible with the PDP-1, provided both two's complement intended for "native" use, and one's complement for some degree of PDP-1 compatibility. The remaining 18-bit machines (PDP-7, PDP-9, PDP-15) mostly preserved binary compatibility with the PDP-4, so they also had both. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 1 18:08:28 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 16:08:28 -0800 Subject: One's complement - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54F3A9FC.2010002@bitsavers.org> > one's complement would be quite a headache to use correctly. > Extended precision arithmetic is a PITA on an 1's compliment machine I have heard the argument that one of the reasons for going to 2's compliment on short word length machines was because of that. From isking at uw.edu Sun Mar 1 18:43:31 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 16:43:31 -0800 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Well, learn something new every day?. :-) Thanks for enlightening me. On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 1:21 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Feb 27, 2015 12:57 PM, "Ian S. King" wrote: > > I believe the PDP-1 used a Flexowriter. I suspect DEC would have used > an > > IBM product over Ken Olsen's dead body. :-) > > The PDP-1 console typewriter is an IBM (model B IIRC) modified by Soroban > Engineering for use as an I/O device. It was horribly unreliable, so DEC > didn't use the same for the PDP-4 and later. CHM has copies of some angry > correspondence between DEC and Soroban. > > Some PDP-1 sites used Flexowriters for offline operations, and it was > possible to add them as additional I/O, but they weren't compatible with > the PDP-1 console interface. > > I think some other PDP-1 I/O options were rebadged IBM equipment with > DEC-built interfaces, but I don't have details of the specific models. DEC > didn't have the resources to build all the equipment, and just engineering > and building all of the interfaces to the OEM devices nearly bankrupted > them. They optimistically put a wide variety of not-yet-designed I/O > equipment on the price list, and the salesmen sold *all* of them to > Lawrence-Livermore. Apparently some of those DEC options only ever sold one > or two units for the entire line of 18-bit machines. > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 1 18:48:29 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 16:48:29 -0800 Subject: seeking R.Stricklin In-Reply-To: <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54F3B35D.9080708@att.net> Apologies for the list noise but this seems the only way to contact Mr Stricklin: Your email server has been "unavailable" for several days.... I can see stuff FROM you but replies to you are bouncing! Please get in touch about the materials you want from the Barry Dobbyns library.... Steve Shumaker 831-252-1067 From js at cimmeri.com Sun Mar 1 20:28:28 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 21:28:28 -0500 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150227082758.GA9856@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54F3CACC.9000603@cimmeri.com> On 3/1/2015 7:43 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Well, learn something new every day?. :-) Thanks for enlightening me. > > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 1:21 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On Feb 27, 2015 12:57 PM, "Ian S. King" wrote: >>> I believe the PDP-1 used a Flexowriter. I suspect DEC would have used an IBM product over Ken Olsen's dead body. :-) >> The PDP-1 console typewriter is an IBM (model B IIRC) modified by Soroban >> Engineering for use as an I/O device. It was horribly unreliable, so DEC >> didn't use the same for the PDP-4 and later. CHM has copies of some angry >> correspondence between DEC and Soroban. >> >> Some PDP-1 sites used Flexowriters for offline operations, and it was >> possible to add them as additional I/O, but they weren't compatible with >> the PDP-1 console interface. >> >> I think some other PDP-1 I/O options were rebadged IBM equipment with >> DEC-built interfaces, but I don't have details of the specific models. DEC >> didn't have the resources to build all the equipment, and just engineering >> and building all of the interfaces to the OEM devices nearly bankrupted >> them. They optimistically put a wide variety of not-yet-designed I/O >> equipment on the price list, and the salesmen sold *all* of them to >> Lawrence-Livermore. Apparently some of those DEC options only ever sold one >> or two units for the entire line of 18-bit machines. >> > What's even more aggravating to read than something not bottom posted? Something not bottom posted to a chain that already begun in the bottom posted format. - J. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 20:35:47 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:35:47 -0700 Subject: date representation standards before ISO 2014 and ISO 8601 Message-ID: In a lot of contexts that predate widespread adoption of ISO 2014 and ISO 8601 (and their relatives), I've seen dates represented in a form such as "02-MAR-79" or "02-MAR-1979". This is similar to the RFC 822/1123 date format, except that those RFCs don't use a hyphen between the components, and use mixed-case for the month. Was there ever an official standard defining such a representation? From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 1 21:51:25 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 21:51:25 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <20150301231357.GA3301@lonesome.com> References: <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <20150301231357.GA3301@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <54F3DE3D.6090408@pico-systems.com> On 03/01/2015 05:13 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > You see ... my *first* machine was a Bendix (although late > enough to be labeled Control Data) G-15. Yup, I tried to help bring up a surplus G-15D, but finally discovered the drum was trashed. If you didn't reorganize the instruction stream around the drum for best access time, the machine ran at roughly 30 IPS, one instruction per drum revolution. (I'm simplifying here, as the drum on the G-15 had recirculating tracks that were rewritten continuously between read head and write head.) if you reorganized the instructions to just come under the head when the last instruction was done, you could get 10K + IPS. A number of other drum-memory machines used similar schemes. And, that was the GREAT advantage of core memory, RANDOM access! Jon From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Mar 1 21:51:47 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 21:51:47 -0600 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> Message-ID: At 01:39 AM 2/27/2015, you wrote: >Just a heads up for anyone around Los Angeles, I was browsing some local estate sale listings and saw one that had a big collection of DEC handbooks from the late-70s/80s: No one's asked who died? - John From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 22:25:33 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 22:25:33 -0600 Subject: LPS-11 Message-ID: I had my hired help here yesterday digging some things out for me. While looking for a LAB-8 for a list member they dug up a Lab Peripheral System 11. If anyone is interested in that or a MINC-11, please contact me off list. Oh, were still looking for the LAB-8. Maybe next weekend... Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 22:33:12 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 22:33:12 -0600 Subject: BC01W-25 cables Message-ID: They also dug up some BC01W-25 cables that I thought were LCG cables, which I have some here somewhere. According to the option module list they are for Bell series 303 modems and work on the DP8-EB, DQ11, and who knows what else... If interested, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 1 22:51:07 2015 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 04:51:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 9100B not functioning after shipping. Suggestions welcome Message-ID: <1144752842.1222531.1425271867308.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I recently acquired an HP9100B which was working before shipping, but on arrival does not respond. The fuses are intact, and I can hear the power supply humming on power up, but there is no CRT output, and I cannot activate the error light (for example, by STOP-CLEAR-/ to get a divde by 0 error.) The register label backlight also doesn't light, but apparently did not light before shipping, when the calculator otherwise worked. I have Tony Duell's excellent schematics, which I'm grateful for. I also have a service manual, and plan to go through it, but it seems a bit short on theory and detail. I'm not in position to swap out boards. I haven't been able to check it out in depth yet, but this week I will be able to spend some time on it.? I have, however, done some basic inspection, and reseated whatever boards are accessible without a screwdriver.? This didn't help anything.? I didn't hear any rattling from the CRT, but haven't yet pulled it out to inspect it. My plan is to start out by checking the power supply voltages, clocks, and move on from there. However, since apparently something changed during shipping, I'd be interested in any suggestions that would help inform a smarter investigation. I am hopeful it's not the CRT, as I would expect a bad CRT to not interfere with the error light. Any suggestions or guidance would be very much appreciated. Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Mar 1 23:16:59 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 21:16:59 -0800 Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH Message-ID: <223212F7-5485-4815-B2BA-88D6F0240AFE@aracnet.com> I'm not in the habit of bringing my photography projects here, in fact this might be a first. I'm hoping someone might recognize this, or at least have an estimate as to when it was made. I'm guessing somewhere between the 1950's and 1970's. Google is useless, the only thing it found, when I looked, was this photo, twelve minutes after I'd posted it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanes-photography/16504361399/ Zane From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 23:44:16 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 23:44:16 -0600 Subject: PDP8 Boards Message-ID: I have numerous requests lately PDP8 parts. In digging out some I knew I had more than I would ever use. The following is a list of boards that are probably not needed for my current plans. Please contact me off list. Shipping is from 61853. $10 for any qty shipped to US. For sale or trade. M8315 8A cpu $150 M8316 option #1 150 M8320 100 M8342 LS8-E 100 M8350 POS I/O 150 M8360 Data Break 150 M8365 LC8-P 75 M8366 LQP8E 75 M841 LE8-E 100 M865 KL8 100 M8650 Kl8 100 M8650-YA 100 M8652 100 M8653 100 M866 DP8-E 100 M884 KG8-E 100 Thanks, Paul From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Mar 2 00:19:53 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 00:19:53 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F3DE3D.6090408@pico-systems.com> References: <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <20150301231357.GA3301@lonesome.com> <54F3DE3D.6090408@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20150302061953.GA4658@lonesome.com> On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 09:51:25PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: > Yup, I tried to help bring up a surplus G-15D, but finally > discovered the drum was trashed. Too bad. Was it physically dead, or just the bits scrambled? IIUC there was _one_ machine that was set up to write the timing track. It was at the factory :-) When was this? What happened to the pieces? mcl From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 2 00:50:02 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 06:50:02 -0000 Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH In-Reply-To: <223212F7-5485-4815-B2BA-88D6F0240AFE@aracnet.com> References: <223212F7-5485-4815-B2BA-88D6F0240AFE@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <029601d054b5$1c06dd10$54149730$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy > Sent: 02 March 2015 05:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH > > I'm not in the habit of bringing my photography projects here, in fact this might > be a first. I'm hoping someone might recognize this, or at least have an > estimate as to when it was made. I'm guessing somewhere between the 1950's > and 1970's. Google is useless, the only thing it found, when I looked, was this > photo, twelve minutes after I'd posted it. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanes-photography/16504361399/ > > Zane Are you on the Greenkeys list? They might have an idea. Regards Rob From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Mar 1 15:38:20 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 22:38:20 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <01037004-744A-4FB1-9763-B0CDC4990FA3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503012138.t21LcIF0010242-t21LcIF1010242@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Mhmhm... i checked the pcb. The LB1620 pin 4 is wired to the pin on which I think comes +24vdc... so... let me check what could happens before. Could happens that is it broken something and it goes to this little pcb +24vdc instead of 12-15vdc??? I misured the voltage coming to this pcb and over there is +24VDC This explain well the why this pcb smoke and it is hot. Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 22:08 A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: > > It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read > through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". Not > having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc > and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a Chinese > power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few > seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied > also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and > cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure the > resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i get > 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There > are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. > In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep a > finger on it. > I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= > LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 > > The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a > control. > > The point is that I have no experience on these components. > Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and on both boards they look like they have been replaced. D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 on the LB1620. The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to 14V, not 15V. Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what voltage they are. I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 1 21:20:25 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:20:25 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503012138.t21LcIF0010242-t21LcIF1010242@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503012138.t21LcIF0010242-t21LcIF1010242@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: Indeed, pin 4 (Vcc1) should be +24V, this is for the motor windings drive. You need to look at pin 19 (Vcc2) of the LB1620 or the voltage across zener D102. Follow the pcb trace from the junction of R112 and D102, goes to pin 19, looks like pins 9 & 2 as well, and on to supply the other ICs. On 2015-Mar-01, at 1:38 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Mhmhm... i checked the pcb. The LB1620 pin 4 is wired to the pin on which I > think comes +24vdc... so... let me check what could happens before. Could > happens that is it broken something and it goes to this little pcb +24vdc > instead of 12-15vdc??? > > I misured the voltage coming to this pcb and over there is +24VDC > This explain well the why this pcb smoke and it is hot. > > > Enrico > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert > Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 22:08 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > > On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: >> >> It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read >> through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". > Not >> having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc >> and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a > Chinese >> power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few >> seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied >> also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and >> cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure > the >> resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i > get >> 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There >> are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. >> In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep > a >> finger on it. >> I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: >> > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= >> LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 >> >> The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a >> control. >> >> The point is that I have no experience on these components. >> Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. >> > > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and > on both boards they look like they have been replaced. > > D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip > supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). > +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 > on the LB1620. > > The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to > 14V, not 15V. > > Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what > voltage they are. > I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 1 21:43:24 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2015 19:43:24 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: References: <201503012138.t21LcIF0010242-t21LcIF1010242@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-01, at 7:20 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > looks like pins 9 & 2 as well, correction: .. looks like pins 9 & 12 as well, From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 2 01:21:23 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:21:23 -0800 Subject: HP 7970E mag tape brackets In-Reply-To: <003d01d052ce$07cc3b30$1764b190$@classiccmp.org> References: <003d01d052ce$07cc3b30$1764b190$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54F40F73.7000308@sbcglobal.net> On 2/27/2015 12:43 PM, Jay West wrote: > I was just informed that the "new manufacture" mounting brackets for the > 7970E are ready. I saw them at about 90% of the fabrication process being > complete and they looked really good. Today I'm going to stop at the > hardware store and buy a set of bolts/nuts/washers that match the originals > (got them there before so I know they have the right ones) so that I can > ship each one with a baggie of the "right stuff". I will probably have them > shipped out to the people that wanted one by the end of next week-ish. > > > > If you were one of those people that confirmed you needed one or two, please > email me your shipping address. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > I can use one or two sets. Bob Rosenbloom 8445 Empire Grade Santa Cruz, CA 95060 831 460 0747 Thanks, Bob -- Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I've been practising it for years. -Prince Philip From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 2 01:43:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:43:27 -0800 Subject: One's complement - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54F4149F.9080602@sydex.com> On 03/01/2015 03:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Studying the CDC 6000 instruction set (through the Grishman book) really > gives me the impression one's complement would be quite a headache to > use correctly. It wasn't, trust me. Because the long add unit on the 6600 used a subtractive algoritm, negative zero was pretty uncommon as a result of arithmetic operations. Either value registered as zero for the conditionals--remember, no condition codes. The big difference is that negative zero registered as minus. Remember that on X-register tests, you could, with a single instruction, only branch on zero/nonzero or minus/plus. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 2 01:50:09 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2015 23:50:09 -0800 Subject: One's complement - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F3A9FC.2010002@bitsavers.org> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> <54F3A9FC.2010002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54F41631.8080701@sydex.com> On 03/01/2015 04:08 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> one's complement would be quite a headache to use correctly. >> > > Extended precision arithmetic is a PITA on an 1's compliment machine > > I have heard the argument that one of the reasons for going to 2's > compliment on short word length machines was because of that. Again, it depends. On the CDC 6000 series, integers for doing math were pretty much 48 bit as multiply and divide were done using the floating point unit. The long add unit did 60 bit integer adds and subtracts. So, if you kept to 48 and 96 bit integers, it was no worse than on any other machine. Even extended precision integer math on the PPUs was less of a hassle than you'd think--the memory word length was 12 bits, but the accumulator (A) register was 18 bits long. Seymour Cray was no fool. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 2 05:19:01 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 12:19:01 +0100 Subject: date representation standards before ISO 2014 and ISO 8601 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F44725.7070405@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-02 03:35, Eric Smith wrote: > In a lot of contexts that predate widespread adoption of ISO 2014 and > ISO 8601 (and their relatives), I've seen dates represented in a form > such as "02-MAR-79" or "02-MAR-1979". This is similar to the RFC > 822/1123 date format, except that those RFCs don't use a hyphen > between the components, and use mixed-case for the month. > > Was there ever an official standard defining such a representation? I'm sure you can find all kind of standards. Exactly who wrote them, and who recognized them is another story. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 2 07:56:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 08:56:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: RA81 removal Message-ID: <20150302135625.BC04718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist >> I compared the DEC part numbers on the RA81 slides and some RL02 slides >> I have, and ... they are indeed the same part number! > What? That can't be. They are physically different. All I know are the following facts: - I bought a group of surplus RL02 drives from a scrap dealer, and they came with slides with the following part #'s: 1213686-00 Rev-K1-R and 1213686-00 Rev-K1-L. (BTW, I have extra -L's, if anyone needs them; will trade for something useful.) - I bought a machine which had previously belonged to DEC in Vancouver, and it came with a couple of RA81 drives, and they had slides with the following (identical to the above) part #'s: 1213686-00 Rev-K1-R and 1213686-00 Rev-K1-L. The two slide sets above are completely identical in appearance; the only difference is that the part # is in different places on the two. - I was given an RL02 drive a while back, and it came with slides, but they don't have any part #'s that I can see. They look almost identical to the ones above, except that the newer ones have two rocking trip levers (one in the middle, and one at one end), and the older ones have only one (the one in the middle). Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 2 09:06:55 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:06:55 -0500 Subject: One's complement - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <9487D76F-ECE3-4465-A1CE-BDD8AA255B0E@comcast.net> > On Mar 1, 2015, at 6:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 01/03/15 6:42 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-03-01 06:14, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 02/28/2015 04:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> Not that Unix was ever written in B anyway, but I believe that B did >>>>>> exist for the PDP-7. >>>>> >>> I looked up the instruction set of the PDP-7, ghastly little machine, >>> basically >>> a PDP-8 extended to 18 bits. ... >> >> ... >> >> The ones and twos complement is the most interesting part. I suspect >> that is because they really had decided that twos complement was the >> future. However, the DEC 18-bit series really started with the PDP-1, >> and all follow on machines were somewhat backwards compatible, and the >> PDP-1 was actually a ones complement machine. The only one DEC built >> that way. So all followon 18-bitters would have to keep the capability, >> I guess. > > Studying the CDC 6000 instruction set (through the Grishman book) really gives me the impression one's complement would be quite a headache to use correctly. It isn?t, actually. One?s complement has some handy properties; a number of arithmetic operations that are distinct from common logical operations in two?s complement share those operations in one?s complement. For example, you don?t need a separate negate and complement; one operation serves both. One critical bit of design is that the ALU needs to be a subtractor rather than an adder, otherwise you end up with -0 as the default zero result. It?s interesting that CDC extended the one?s complement approach to the float format, unlike the (at least nowadays) conventional approach of sign/magnitude encoding. And with the binary point at the right rather than left of the mantissa, you end up with integers (up to 47 bits) being valid floating point encodings of that same value. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 2 09:07:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 07:07:11 -0800 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: <20150302040028.242D82073E90@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150302040028.242D82073E90@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54F47C9F.5060001@bitsavers.org> On 3/1/15 7:51 PM, John Foust wrote: > No one's asked who died? > I thought the art was interesting. He also had a picture of Goddard. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 2 09:10:48 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 10:10:48 -0500 Subject: A few DEC boards available Message-ID: <24232369-4C67-47EE-A049-504F977A4B92@comcast.net> Available, free, first come first serve: M9202 Unibus long jumper (I have 3) DEFPA-DA dual attached FDDI PCI NIC (untested, no software, but believed to be working) paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 09:39:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:39:46 +0000 Subject: HP 9100B not functioning after shipping. Suggestions welcome In-Reply-To: <1144752842.1222531.1425271867308.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1144752842.1222531.1425271867308.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Hello, > > I recently acquired an HP9100B which was working before shipping, but on arrival does not respond. The fuses > are intact, and I can hear the power supply humming on power up, but there is no CRT output, and I cannot > activate the error light (for example, by STOP-CLEAR-/ to get a divde by 0 error.) The register label backlight > also doesn't light, but apparently did not light before shipping, when the calculator otherwise worked. OK, the first obvious thing to check is that the logic power supply is there. It's -15V, the chassis can be taken as 0V. This is unlikely to be the problem, but you don't want to spend time working out why nothing works, only to find it's got no power. The register label is lit by a couple of T1+3/4 bi-pin bulbs running directly off the -15V supply. They might be burnt out. The error lamp is a similar bulb running from a transistor driver on the left sideboard, this bulb may also be burnt out. With a machine as complex as the 9100, it is well worth making sure trivial things are right before diving into the logic. > > I have Tony Duell's excellent schematics, which I'm grateful for. I also have a service manual, and plan to go > through it, but it seems a bit short on theory and detail. I'm not in position to swap out boards. The lack of processor information in the manual is one reason I traced out the schematics :-) To be fair, the service manual is useful for the PSU and display sections. But if that's not the problem, you need the schematics. Have you read the interfacing manual? Read with a hackish eye it gives away a few of the 'secrets'. One trap for the unwary, the flip-flops are current-operated (the J and K inputs are to the bases of transistors with the emitters held at -1.4V). So you won't see much there with a 'scope. The outputs of the flip-flops (E and F) do swing by almost 15V, and are easy to measure. > > I haven't been able to check it out in depth yet, but this week I will be able to spend some time on it. I have, > however, done some basic inspection, and reseated whatever boards are accessible without a screwdriver. This might be bad connections. It's worth removing the keyboard, card reader and processor chassis, then taking off the sideboards (3 screws each) and making sure they connect correctly to the gating board and the ROM assembly. Note that the machine will work without the card reader. It will not work if the keyboard is not plugged into the processor. > This didn't help anything. I didn't hear any rattling from the CRT, but haven't yet pulled it out to inspect it. > My plan is to start out by checking the power supply voltages, clocks, and move on from there. However, since > apparently something changed during shipping, I'd be interested in any suggestions that would help inform a > smarter investigation. I am hopeful it's not the CRT, as I would expect a bad CRT to not interfere with the error > light. Well, you don't know the error lamp is good :-). Worth checking. The processor will run and give errors with a faulty CRT (or CRT driver circuits, EHT power supply, etc). But if the CRT is internally shorted which can happen if the electrode supports break in shipping, you can and up with a couple of hundred volts on the processor. This wipes out diodes and transistors... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 10:24:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 16:24:32 +0000 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org>,<54F386F8.7010504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > > On the PDP-5/8 and the -7, I am guessing they DON'T incr the > PC an > extra time, they set up for increment through the main > adder, and then > make a carry-in if they want to double-increment the PC. FWIW, that's basically how it is done on the HP9800 calculator processor, a bit-serial machine. The program counter is incremented by adding 1 to one bit, then adding 0 to 15 bits (the register shifting after each add). The 9800 processor hardware allows a microinstruction (like add 0) to be repeated 1-16 times, obvously a useful feature on a bit-serial machine. For that to work, the carry flag has to be preserved between microinstructions, of course. At the end of the microcode routine for each machine instruction, the microcode jumps to this increment_P_register routine, which then goes on to fetch and decode the next machine instruction. If the carry flag is clear at the entry to increment_P_register then P (the program counter) is incremented by one. But if the carry flag is set, then it is incremented by 2, skipping the next machine instruction. -tony From bear at typewritten.org Mon Mar 2 11:23:13 2015 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:23:13 -0800 Subject: seeking R.Stricklin In-Reply-To: <54F3B35D.9080708@att.net> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> <54F3B35D.9080708@att.net> Message-ID: <17A1CC7B-3C38-4513-AC0C-FBABA99FAE5D@typewritten.org> On Mar 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Apologies for the list noise but this seems the only way to contact Mr Stricklin: Your email server has been "unavailable" for several days.... I can see stuff FROM you but replies to you are bouncing! Please get in touch about the materials you want from the Barry Dobbyns library.... That is odd, I have been receiving email from other folks. Thanks for the ping, I will phone this afternoon. ok bear. -- until further notice From bear at typewritten.org Mon Mar 2 11:23:13 2015 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 09:23:13 -0800 Subject: seeking R.Stricklin In-Reply-To: <54F3B35D.9080708@att.net> References: <54E3ED1E.5080601@cox.net> <54E539DC.1060704@cox.net> <54E5560D.4040307@sydex.com> <54E559D4.800@jetnet.ab.ca> <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F39B52.9050406@telegraphics.com.au> <54F3B35D.9080708@att.net> Message-ID: <17A1CC7B-3C38-4513-AC0C-FBABA99FAE5D@typewritten.org> On Mar 1, 2015, at 4:48 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Apologies for the list noise but this seems the only way to contact Mr Stricklin: Your email server has been "unavailable" for several days.... I can see stuff FROM you but replies to you are bouncing! Please get in touch about the materials you want from the Barry Dobbyns library.... That is odd, I have been receiving email from other folks. Thanks for the ping, I will phone this afternoon. ok bear. -- until further notice From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 2 11:57:20 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 11:57:20 -0600 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <20150302061953.GA4658@lonesome.com> References: <54F0DF1B.3050601@update.uu.se> <54F0E866.6060301@sydex.com> <54F0E9CF.7040901@update.uu.se> <54F0ECB3.1050204@sydex.com> <54F19FA2.3060503@update.uu.se> <54F2A02F.7080706@pico-systems.com> <54F2FB29.6000708@update.uu.se> <54F35370.3020305@bitsavers.org> <20150301231357.GA3301@lonesome.com> <54F3DE3D.6090408@pico-systems.com> <20150302061953.GA4658@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <54F4A480.7060207@pico-systems.com> On 03/02/2015 12:19 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Mar 01, 2015 at 09:51:25PM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> Yup, I tried to help bring up a surplus G-15D, but finally >> discovered the drum was trashed. > Too bad. Was it physically dead, or just the bits scrambled? The G-15 had a drum sectored off into short lines and long lines. the long lines were the "main memory", the short lines were the register set. Each line had a write head, read head and an erase magnet, except for the clock track, which only had a read head, and was recorded at the factory. So, whenever you turned the machine off, the drum was erased. The sealing of the drum was REALLY bad, just an aluminum cover with a bundle of wires fed through a hole with caterpillar grommet around the edge. So, the drum area was FULL of dirt, and some had wedged against the heads and scored several tracks. At least one track was scored down to brass. We tried writing data to the drum and reading it back, but got a lot of garbage. There were probably some bad tubes in the machine, too. Jon From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 13:48:48 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 20:48:48 +0100 Subject: A few DEC boards available Message-ID: Hello, you have email. Andrea From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 2 15:44:31 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 13:44:31 -0800 Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH In-Reply-To: <029601d054b5$1c06dd10$54149730$@ntlworld.com> References: <223212F7-5485-4815-B2BA-88D6F0240AFE@aracnet.com> <029601d054b5$1c06dd10$54149730$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2015, at 10:50 PM, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane > Healy >> Sent: 02 March 2015 05:17 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH >> >> I'm not in the habit of bringing my photography projects here, in fact > this might >> be a first. I'm hoping someone might recognize this, or at least have an >> estimate as to when it was made. I'm guessing somewhere between the > 1950's >> and 1970's. Google is useless, the only thing it found, when I looked, > was this >> photo, twelve minutes after I'd posted it. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanes-photography/16504361399/ >> >> Zane > > Are you on the Greenkeys list? They might have an idea. I'm not, I'm vaguely aware of its existence, but never had a reason to join. Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 2 15:50:55 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 15:50:55 -0600 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: <54F47C9F.5060001@bitsavers.org> References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150302040028.242D82073E90@huey.classiccmp.org> <54F47C9F.5060001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 09:07 AM 3/2/2015, you wrote: >On 3/1/15 7:51 PM, John Foust wrote: >>No one's asked who died? >I thought the art was interesting. He also had a picture of Goddard. Yes, the art caught my eye, too. An emphasis on Bali or Indonesia. And a large format VCR. Cue the "Such as I am, such shalt thou be" refrain, and a reminder that if we pass before arranging the post-mortem disposition of our collections, it could all land in the dumpster, or maybe at an estate sale if we're lucky. - John From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 16:31:25 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:31:25 -0500 Subject: New Maryland BBS :P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: After some downtime recently due to a hard drive failure, I've received a new ESDI drive! 30mb this time, but from a good source. Should be up again later tonight! On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > +1-410-734-6804 best bbs in the world > > .... mainly 'cuz it's in my bedroom. > > I even have a legitimate Wildcat! 4 license! >_> > > Hosted on an IBM PS/2 Model 70 with 8MB ram and a 130MB ESDI HDD. > Blue Lightning version, too, so it's a blazing fast 486 instead of the > normal 386 model. > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Mar 2 16:40:34 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 14:40:34 -0800 Subject: Flexi-bit PUNCH In-Reply-To: References: <223212F7-5485-4815-B2BA-88D6F0240AFE@aracnet.com> <029601d054b5$1c06dd10$54149730$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <23252825-A4B5-4244-8AE5-84F67A050D03@nf6x.net> I have a different style of manual punch which is part of a tape splicing kit. I wonder whether your Flexi-bit was meant for a similar purpose, or if it was meant for producing new tapes from scratch? With something like that, you could bootstrap a machine from scratch that can boot from a tape reader but doesn't have a toggle switch panel. Now, if it also came with a gadget for cutting strips of the proper width from random paper, that would impress me! :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 16:45:01 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:45:01 -0500 Subject: [HacDC:Blabber] Re: New Maryland BBS :P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why 10bT ? I have regular TP and AUI Ethernet nic. :P On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, wrote: > After some downtime recently due to a hard drive failure, I've received a >> new ESDI drive! 30mb this time, but from a good source. Should be up again >> later tonight! >> > > You could always boot from a floppy disk with a 10baseT NIC, and then > mount a share on a linux machine that is running Samba (using Microsoft > WFW3.11 or something.) > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 2 17:22:16 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2015 15:22:16 -0800 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: <20150302221045.743D42073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150302040028.242D82073E90@huey.classiccmp.org> <54F47C9F.5060001@bitsavers.org> <20150302221045.743D42073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54F4F0A8.20904@jwsss.com> On 3/2/2015 1:50 PM, John Foust wrote: > > t was interesting. He also had a picture of Goddard. > Yes, the art caught my eye, too. An emphasis on Bali or Indonesia. > And a large format VCR. > > Cue the "Such as I am, such shalt thou be" refrain, and a reminder > that if we pass before arranging the post-mortem disposition of > our collections, it could all land in the dumpster, or maybe at > an estate sale if we're lucky. > > - John > > I made contact with the company conducting the sale, and the stuff in the photos which didn't sell are still available. I will post more photos of items sometime this week if they look of interest here. I don't know what is left, but it may be interesting. I'm helping another list member obtain an item from the sale, and can look at the other stuff if anyone is interested. thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 17:23:40 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:23:40 -0600 Subject: A few DEC boards available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrea, Did you leave a message? Paul On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:48 PM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > you have email. > Andrea > From mokuba at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 19:16:42 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 20:16:42 -0500 Subject: [HacDC:Blabber] Re: New Maryland BBS :P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry to whoever just called. i'm still working on it. ;) On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Why 10bT ? I have regular TP and AUI Ethernet nic. :P > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, wrote: > >> After some downtime recently due to a hard drive failure, I've received a >>> new ESDI drive! 30mb this time, but from a good source. Should be up >>> again >>> later tonight! >>> >> >> You could always boot from a floppy disk with a 10baseT NIC, and then >> mount a share on a linux machine that is running Samba (using Microsoft >> WFW3.11 or something.) >> >> -- >> Ethan O'Toole >> >> > > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From ethan at 757.org Mon Mar 2 16:35:35 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:35:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [HacDC:Blabber] Re: New Maryland BBS :P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > After some downtime recently due to a hard drive failure, I've received a > new ESDI drive! 30mb this time, but from a good source. Should be up again > later tonight! You could always boot from a floppy disk with a 10baseT NIC, and then mount a share on a linux machine that is running Samba (using Microsoft WFW3.11 or something.) -- Ethan O'Toole From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Mar 2 07:48:52 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 14:48:52 +0100 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Message-ID: Well, i desolder the LB1620... it has obvious signs of burning under the chips and also on the pcb. I saw the smoke coming from that place but I thought it came from one of cap of 2700pf instead came from the chip. The short circuit between +24vdc and the ground is gone out.   +24vdc go just at pin 4 of the LB1620. +24vdc to R112 and the D102 Zener that is saved so from here to pins: 19, 2 and 12 of the LB1620 then it continue to pin 16 of the TC9142P. The datasheet of this last one say that the power voltage would be between 5Vdc and 9,5Vdc. So would this say that the zenere has to be from 5 to 9 vdc? Have i to measure the exact voltage on pin 16 of the TC9142P without the  LB1620 and how have i to expect?   The LB1620 is smoked. What other components must be tested to ensure that the new LB1620 can not be broken just fitted?   Thanks a lot.   E.     --------- Original Message -------- Da: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Data: 02/03/15 04:20 Indeed, pin 4 (Vcc1) should be +24V, this is for the motor windings drive. You need to look at pin 19 (Vcc2) of the LB1620 or the voltage across zener D102. Follow the pcb trace from the junction of R112 and D102, goes to pin 19, looks like pins 9 & 2 as well, and on to supply the other ICs. On 2015-Mar-01, at 1:38 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Mhmhm... i checked the pcb. The LB1620 pin 4 is wired to the pin on which I > think comes +24vdc... so... let me check what could happens before. Could > happens that is it broken something and it goes to this little pcb +24vdc > instead of 12-15vdc??? > > I misured the voltage coming to this pcb and over there is +24VDC > This explain well the why this pcb smoke and it is hot. > > > Enrico > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert > Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 22:08 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > > On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: >> >> It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read >> through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". > Not >> having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc >> and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a > Chinese >> power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few >> seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied >> also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and >> cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure > the >> resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i > get >> 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There >> are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. >> In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep > a >> finger on it. >> I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: >> > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= >> LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 >> >> The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a >> control. >> >> The point is that I have no experience on these components. >> Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. >> > > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and > on both boards they look like they have been replaced. > > D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip > supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). > +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 > on the LB1620. > > The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to > 14V, not 15V. > > Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what > voltage they are. > I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. > -- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli Clicca qui http://posta.email.it/caselle-di-posta-z-email-it/?utm_campaign=email_Zimbra_102014=main_footer/f Sponsor: Idee regalo classiche o alternative? Trova l'offerta migliore in un click Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=13327&d=2-3 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 09:50:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 15:50:30 +0000 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Well, i desolder the LB1620... it has obvious signs of burning under > the chips and also on the pcb. OK... That is a likely result of getting the power connections the wrong way round. To answer a question you asked in another message. I've never seen a socket for this chip and I think you need to solder it in directly so the metal heatsink bracket will fit properly. [..] > +24vdc to R112 and the D102 Zener that is saved so from here to pins: 19, 2 > and 12 of the LB1620 then it continue to pin 16 of the TC9142P. > > > The datasheet of this last one say that the power voltage would be between > 5Vdc and 9,5Vdc. So would this say that the zenere has to be from > 5 to 9 vdc? Have i to measure the exact voltage on pin 16 of the TC9142P > without the  LB1620 and how have i to expect? Yes. Connect up the 24V supply now and measure the voltage across the zener D102. It should be, I guess ,between 5V and 9.5V. > The LB1620 is smoked. What other components must be tested to ensure > that the new LB1620 can not be broken just fitted? Check that zener voltage. If that's OK, it is very likely nothing will damage the new IC. Thanks a lot.   -tpmy E.     --------- Original Message -------- Da: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Data: 02/03/15 04:20 Indeed, pin 4 (Vcc1) should be +24V, this is for the motor windings drive. You need to look at pin 19 (Vcc2) of the LB1620 or the voltage across zener D102. Follow the pcb trace from the junction of R112 and D102, goes to pin 19, looks like pins 9 & 2 as well, and on to supply the other ICs. On 2015-Mar-01, at 1:38 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Mhmhm... i checked the pcb. The LB1620 pin 4 is wired to the pin on which I > think comes +24vdc... so... let me check what could happens before. Could > happens that is it broken something and it goes to this little pcb +24vdc > instead of 12-15vdc??? > > I misured the voltage coming to this pcb and over there is +24VDC > This explain well the why this pcb smoke and it is hot. > > > Enrico > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert > Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 22:08 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > > On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: >> >> It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read >> through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". > Not >> having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc >> and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a > Chinese >> power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few >> seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied >> also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and >> cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure > the >> resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i > get >> 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There >> are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. >> In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep > a >> finger on it. >> I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: >> > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= >> LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 >> >> The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a >> control. >> >> The point is that I have no experience on these components. >> Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. >> > > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and > on both boards they look like they have been replaced. > > D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip > supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). > +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 > on the LB1620. > > The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to > 14V, not 15V. > > Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what > voltage they are. > I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. > -- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli Clicca qui http://posta.email.it/caselle-di-posta-z-email-it/?utm_campaign=email_Zimbra_102014=main_footer/f Sponsor: Idee regalo classiche o alternative? Trova l'offerta migliore in un click Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=13327&d=2-3 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 2 14:58:06 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 12:58:06 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83C5FD1B-4E9E-44DC-838A-F2BFE9FDE06D@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-02, at 7:50 AM, tony duell wrote: Lazzerini wrote: >> +24vdc to R112 and the D102 Zener that is saved so from here to pins: 19, 2 >> and 12 of the LB1620 then it continue to pin 16 of the TC9142P. The D102-zener-regulated supply, in addition to supplying the 1620 & 9142, appears to supply that other 8-pin chip, and the hall-effect sensors. >> The datasheet of this last one say that the power voltage would be between >> 5Vdc and 9,5Vdc. So would this say that the zenere has to be from >> 5 to 9 vdc? Have i to measure the exact voltage on pin 16 of the TC9142P >> without the  LB1620 and how have i to expect? > > Yes. Connect up the 24V supply now and measure the voltage across the zener D102. It > should be, I guess ,between 5V and 9.5V. The 1620 min Vcc2 was 8.5V, so with the max 9.5V of the 9142, it looks like the zener is supposed to be 9V (9.1V). >> The LB1620 is smoked. What other components must be tested to ensure >> that the new LB1620 can not be broken just fitted? > > Check that zener voltage. If that's OK, it is very likely nothing will damage the new IC. One concern is that if the zener is incorrect and too high a V, and the short in the 1620 was pulling that V down, the shorted 1620 may have been saving the other semiconductors. Powering it up with the 1620 now removed might apply high V to the other semis, so it would be an idea to isolate them for testing the zener voltage, or remove the zener for out-of-circuit checking (apply a voltage to it though a series R). I'm just going by your writing in one of the photos that it's a 15V zener - how did you know that or come to write it? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 2 15:39:11 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 13:39:11 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503022117.t22LHAgd009487-t22LHAge009487@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503022117.t22LHAgd009487-t22LHAge009487@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-02, at 1:17 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Connecting the bigger resistors and the zener D102 the voltage on this last > one is 12,45Vdc. This one is direct connected to: > LB1620 pins 9,12,19 > TC9142P pins 4,12,16 > C358C pin 8 > Then LB1620 pin 4 = +24Vdc > > Is in this way that TC9142P could be burned? Well it is excessive, so you wouldn't want to run it at that level for long periods. Whether it (the 9142) has failed already is an open question. Did you test the zener and big R together out-of-circuit, or with the other ICs still connected? 12.45V sounds low for a 15V zener (if that's what it is), so I wonder if something else is pulling the V down. I hope the hall sensors are OK, I don't know how much variation on supply V they can tolerate. From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 15:12:57 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 22:12:57 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Message-ID: Enrico, probably I could help you, but unfortunately I think you are too far from me... or not? Where are you in Italy? Andrea From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Mon Mar 2 15:17:11 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 22:17:11 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503022117.t22LHAgd009487-t22LHAge009487@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Connecting the bigger resistors and the zener D102 the voltage on this last one is 12,45Vdc. This one is direct connected to: LB1620 pins 9,12,19 TC9142P pins 4,12,16 C358C pin 8 Then LB1620 pin 4 = +24Vdc Is in this way that TC9142P could be burned? Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: tony duell [mailto:ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Inviato: luned? 2 marzo 2015 16:50 A: Enrico Lazzerini; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Oggetto: RE: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > Well, i desolder the LB1620... it has obvious signs of burning under > the chips and also on the pcb. OK... That is a likely result of getting the power connections the wrong way round. To answer a question you asked in another message. I've never seen a socket for this chip and I think you need to solder it in directly so the metal heatsink bracket will fit properly. [..] > +24vdc to R112 and the D102 Zener that is saved so from here to pins: 19, 2 > and 12 of the LB1620 then it continue to pin 16 of the TC9142P. > > > The datasheet of this last one say that the power voltage would be between > 5Vdc and 9,5Vdc. So would this say that the zenere has to be from > 5 to 9 vdc? Have i to measure the exact voltage on pin 16 of the TC9142P > without the  LB1620 and how have i to expect? Yes. Connect up the 24V supply now and measure the voltage across the zener D102. It should be, I guess ,between 5V and 9.5V. > The LB1620 is smoked. What other components must be tested to ensure > that the new LB1620 can not be broken just fitted? Check that zener voltage. If that's OK, it is very likely nothing will damage the new IC. Thanks a lot.   -tpmy E.     --------- Original Message -------- Da: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Data: 02/03/15 04:20 Indeed, pin 4 (Vcc1) should be +24V, this is for the motor windings drive. You need to look at pin 19 (Vcc2) of the LB1620 or the voltage across zener D102. Follow the pcb trace from the junction of R112 and D102, goes to pin 19, looks like pins 9 & 2 as well, and on to supply the other ICs. On 2015-Mar-01, at 1:38 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > Mhmhm... i checked the pcb. The LB1620 pin 4 is wired to the pin on which I > think comes +24vdc... so... let me check what could happens before. Could > happens that is it broken something and it goes to this little pcb +24vdc > instead of 12-15vdc??? > > I misured the voltage coming to this pcb and over there is +24VDC > This explain well the why this pcb smoke and it is hot. > > > Enrico > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert > Inviato: domenica 1 marzo 2015 22:08 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > > > On 2015-Mar-01, at 9:56 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Thanks Tony for your suggestions. What I means is: >> >> It happen in two distinct times every time when I used the drive to read >> through a PC with the software IMD to create images of floppy disks 8 ". > Not >> having the correct power connectors i power the drives in this way: + 5vdc >> and ground coming by a PC power supply and +24vdc and ground from a > Chinese >> power supply. I must have certainly reversed this last one even for a few >> seconds exchange +24vdc with the ground. Now both spindle motor supplied >> also with only +24vdc start smoking in the vicinity of the chip LB1620 and >> cause of cooling you can not touch it as hot it is. If I try to measure > the >> resistance between pins +24vdc and ground of each spindle motor drive i > get >> 1327ohm on FD0 while i measure 19ohm on the spindle motor drive FD1. There >> are no visible damage nor to the components nor the PCB wires. >> In both pcbs anyway the chips LB1620 sunburnt from not being able to keep > a >> finger on it. >> I searched on ebay and the only place that has LB1620 seems to be: >> > http://www.ebay.it/itm/LB1620-INTEGRATED-CIRCUIT-IC-BOX-74-/390955452872?pt= >> LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b06c2c9c8 >> >> The input's pins of the pcb are : +24vdc, ground, and the rest could be a >> control. >> >> The point is that I have no experience on these components. >> Replace the chip could make it burn again for my inexperience. >> > > I notice in one of the photos you have written 15V for the zener D102, and > on both boards they look like they have been replaced. > > D102 and R112 are a simple regulator to reduce the +24V down for the chip > supplies (looking at the photos to trace the circuit). > +24 is otherwise used directly only for the motor windings, in part via Vcc1 > on the LB1620. > > The LB1620 datasheet specifies the Vcc2 range for the 1620 to be only 8.5 to > 14V, not 15V. > > Check the Vcc2/zener level to see whether the zeners are good and what > voltage they are. > I expect Vcc2 (and the zener V) is supposed to be 12V or 9V. > -- ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli Clicca qui http://posta.email.it/caselle-di-posta-z-email-it/?utm_campaign=email_Zimbra _102014=main_footer/f Sponsor: Idee regalo classiche o alternative? Trova l'offerta migliore in un click Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=13327&d=2-3 = From earl at retrobits.com Tue Mar 3 00:09:12 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2015 22:09:12 -0800 Subject: DEC handbooks at LA estate sale In-Reply-To: <20150302221045.743D42073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <40CB80CB-DD57-4CB9-A3BF-14F01C6039EF@bslabs.net> <20150302040028.242D82073E90@huey.classiccmp.org> <54F47C9F.5060001@bitsavers.org> <20150302221045.743D42073C3A@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 1:50 PM, John Foust wrote: > > Cue the "Such as I am, such shalt thou be" refrain, and a reminder > that if we pass before arranging the post-mortem disposition of > our collections, it could all land in the dumpster, or maybe at > an estate sale if we're lucky. > > - John > > Shameless plug - we cover exactly this topic in the latest Retro Computing Roundtable episode #95, which should be on the air pretty soon at http://rcrpodcast.com. - Earl From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 02:22:50 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 09:22:50 +0100 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm repairing an M4data 9914 tape drive. After fixing some problem with psu, replacing the roller rubber with a cut of tubing, cleaning mechanical parts, oiling some pulleys, now it starts up on power on, runs diagnostics, but unfortunately ends with a **BIFF error (scsi interface). The drive hasn't been connected to a pc via scsi yet. I have a couple of questions: - what should be the correct external diameter of the rubber roller? - where could I find schematics? thanks Andrea From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 3 07:58:09 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:58:09 +0100 Subject: RA81 removal In-Reply-To: <20150302135625.BC04718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150302135625.BC04718C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <54F5BDF1.9090404@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-02 14:56, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > >> I compared the DEC part numbers on the RA81 slides and some RL02 slides > >> I have, and ... they are indeed the same part number! > > > What? That can't be. They are physically different. > > All I know are the following facts: [...] All I can speculate at, without seeing the equipment, would be that someone mounted RL drives on RA rails. That wouldn't be hard. They are compatible enough. Johnny From slandon110 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 13:29:29 2015 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 14:29:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for a 24U rack or smaller Message-ID: <54F60B99.1010501@gmail.com> The 42U racks I have are too big for my house, so im looking for a couple of 24U enclosed racks. Im located In Farwell Michigan Let me know what you have Thanks Steve From tsg at bonedaddy.net Tue Mar 3 13:40:27 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:40:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for a 24U rack or smaller In-Reply-To: <54F60B99.1010501@gmail.com> References: <54F60B99.1010501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150303194027.GN11570@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Steven Landon [150303 14:28]: > The 42U racks I have are too big for my house, so im looking for a > couple of 24U enclosed racks. > > Im located In Farwell Michigan > > Let me know what you have > > Thanks > > Steve You should pay people the money you owe them before you attempt to engage in further commerce. Todd From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 3 07:37:24 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 07:37:24 -0600 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d055b7$2f18b970$8d4a2c50$@classiccmp.org> Andrea wrote... ---- I have a couple of questions: - what should be the correct external diameter of the rubber roller? - where could I find schematics? ---- Headed out of town this morning for a couple days, but when I get back I can measure my roller for you. I have the operators guide for sure, diagnostics manual too, but not positive have schematics. When mine needed repair, I had to send it off to GreenTree and it's worked flawlessly since. J From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Tue Mar 3 13:00:05 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:00:05 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503031900.t23J064u008723-t23J064v008723@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : About powers: LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? ENrico From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Tue Mar 3 13:00:05 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:00:05 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503031900.t23J064u008723-t23J064w008723@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Pisa - Airport 150 meters -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di shadoooo Inviato: luned? 2 marzo 2015 22:13 A: cctech at classiccmp.org Oggetto: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) Enrico, probably I could help you, but unfortunately I think you are too far from me... or not? Where are you in Italy? Andrea From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 3 13:27:34 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 11:27:34 -0800 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive In-Reply-To: <001901d055b7$2f18b970$8d4a2c50$@classiccmp.org> References: <001901d055b7$2f18b970$8d4a2c50$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <54F60B26.3080104@bitsavers.org> On 3/3/15 5:37 AM, Jay West wrote: > > GreenTree and it's worked flawlessly since. > They bought Storagetek's tape operation along with all the documentation. I got nowhere a year ago trying to get 9914 schematics from them, which I desperately need to try to figure out the modifications that John Bordynuik made to the motor control board when he modified a drive to support a MR head stack. The thickness isn't particularly critical. It may be more so on 800 bpi tapes but 1600 and 6250 will self-clock. The 9914 is very touchy about sticky tapes though since the tape tension system doesn't have much mechanical play once a tape starts to bind. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 14:23:30 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:23:30 -0600 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes Message-ID: Does anyone have any scraped out RL drives with brushes they don't need? I need 4 or so and will pay cash (Paypal) or trade. Thanks, Paul From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 14:31:37 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 15:31:37 -0500 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Although I haven't yet deemed it scrap, one of my 5 'was-working-fine' RL02s isn't powering up correctly. Let me know if you find no sources more appropriate. On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Does anyone have any scraped out RL drives with brushes they don't need? > > I need 4 or so and will pay cash (Paypal) or trade. > > Thanks, Paul > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 3 14:43:54 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:43:54 +0000 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Peter Corlett Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2015 11:47 AM > APL fails as a programming language because it is quite unlike more familiar > programming languages, and doesn't offer anything new. It may have been novel > in 1979 but I doubt it was even then. It requires special support from the > environment due to its non-ASCII character set, adding further friction. In 1979, Iverson was doing a retrospective on APL for his Turing Award. The language was ~15 years old at the time; his book _A Mathematical Notation_ was nearly 20. The language was hardly novel, being used for real world work by then. I was first exposed to APL at the Computer Assisted Instruction Laboratory at the University of Texas in the autumn of 1969, on a System/360 Model 50 and an IBM 1500 (an 1800 running Coursewriter II as its OS). APL\360 and APL\1500 were similar but not identical. I thought it an interesting toy. I encountered APLSF on the DEC-20 at UChicago while in grad school, c. 1978. In 1983, I shared an office at UChicago with a gent who made a good living at an investment bank programming in APL. It was he to told me about geek challenges of the form "I bet you can't tell me what this APL one-liner does!" I told him that my response would always be "You're right!" If you're going to offer a critique of an historical paper, be sure of your history first. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From n2dvm at arrl.net Tue Mar 3 15:31:57 2015 From: n2dvm at arrl.net (Daniel V. Mackey) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2015 16:31:57 -0500 Subject: Xybernaut Wearable.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20150303162857.0a542ae8@pop-server.twcny.rr.com> >Does any one know where I can find the drivers for XP for the >Xybernaut Mobile Assistant V? It's one of these : http://www.ebay.com/itm/Xybernaut-MA-V-Mobile-Wearable-Computer-Set-/271609851848 --- WWW: http://www.commodoredungeon.com QUOTE : "A Clean bench is a sign of a weak mind." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 3 15:41:20 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 13:41:20 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503031900.t23J064u008723-t23J064v008723@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503031900.t23J064u008723-t23J064v008723@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-03, at 11:00 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I > previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : > > About powers: > LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC > TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC > C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc > > I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. > This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? 8V of a 7808 may be low/marginal for the 8.5V min specified in the LB1620 datasheet (at least in the Sanyo one I'm looking at). You could add a diode or two in series with the GND leg of the 7808 to raise the voltage to around 8.6V (1 diode) or 9.2V (2 diodes). (cathode to GND, ordinary 1N400x for example). From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 3 16:00:22 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:00:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> APL fails as a programming language because it is quite unlike more >> familiar programming languages, To my mind that is why it _succeeds_ as a programming language. >> and doesn't offer anything new. Perhaps I'm just revealing the paucity of the languages I know, but it does to me - in particular, it's one of the very few languages I know in which arrays are first-class objects, and the only one I know with a reasonably rich set of operators tuned for operating on arrays. >> It requires special support from the environment due to its >> non-ASCII character set, adding further friction. It doesn't, actually; I've seen APL systems described which use ASCII substitutes for the various `special' characters. (I suspect code written that way would be less readable than with the proper characters, but that's equally true of, say, C's trigraphs.) > I thought it an interesting toy. It is. But I'd say that's a positive thing; a language that isn't an interesting toy - ie, isn't fun to play with - is unlikely to be much good for anything larger. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Tue Mar 3 16:25:55 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 23:25:55 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503032225.t23MPuBs021921-t23MPuBt021921@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> I thought to this with a 7808: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ekj0bftrh86nhsa/PowerOK.jpg?dl=0 to test before to resolder the new LB1620. Thanks for the kind support of all of you. Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert Inviato: marted? 3 marzo 2015 22:41 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) On 2015-Mar-03, at 11:00 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I > previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : > > About powers: > LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC > TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC > C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc > > I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. > This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? 8V of a 7808 may be low/marginal for the 8.5V min specified in the LB1620 datasheet (at least in the Sanyo one I'm looking at). You could add a diode or two in series with the GND leg of the 7808 to raise the voltage to around 8.6V (1 diode) or 9.2V (2 diodes). (cathode to GND, ordinary 1N400x for example).= From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 3 16:49:05 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 14:49:05 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503032225.t23MPuBs021921-t23MPuBt021921@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503032225.t23MPuBs021921-t23MPuBt021921@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <60E877E3-60F7-4F99-8C08-1A6D26629DF8@cs.ubc.ca> > On 2015-Mar-03, at 11:00 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >> Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I >> previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : >> >> About powers: >> LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC >> TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC >> C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc >> >> I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. >> This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? Brent wrote: > 8V of a 7808 may be low/marginal for the 8.5V min specified in the LB1620 > datasheet (at least in the Sanyo one I'm looking at). > > You could add a diode or two in series with the GND leg of the 7808 to raise > the voltage to around 8.6V (1 diode) or 9.2V (2 diodes). > (cathode to GND, ordinary 1N400x for example).= > On 2015-Mar-03, at 2:25 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > I thought to this with a 7808: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ekj0bftrh86nhsa/PowerOK.jpg?dl=0 > to test before to resolder the new LB1620. > > Thanks for the kind support of all of you. > Enrico If you cut where you indicate and install the 7808 across that point, you will miss the supply point for the hall-effect sensors, they would still be supplied by the higher zener V (note R109 that takes off around the R112-D102 junction to head to the sensors). Rather than cutting the trace, I would just remove R112 & D102 and install the 7808 across the former R112 opening, with the aforementioned diode(s) in the GND leg. There's enough copper there you may be able to drill a new hole or two to catch the 7808 legs. (Alternatively, 9.1V zeners are pretty common.) From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Tue Mar 3 18:12:38 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 00:12:38 +0000 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> I have a friend working on CNCing new ones out of graphite blocks using the dimensions I took off a good one. It's all highly experimental right now, but I'll report back on how it goes. Christopher Parish On Tuesday, March 03, 2015 15:32, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >Although I haven't yet deemed it scrap, one of my 5 'was-working-fine' >RL02s isn't powering up correctly. Let me know if you find no sources >more appropriate. > >On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Does anyone have any scraped out RL drives with brushes they don't need? >> >> I need 4 or so and will pay cash (Paypal) or trade. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 18:56:05 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:56:05 -0600 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: I have a friend with a lathe and that was his thought too. It should work fine, but he doesn't have CNC. Do you have a good source for graphite rod? I'm looking for some for another project. Thanks, Paul On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Christopher Parish < christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com> wrote: > I have a friend working on CNCing new ones out of graphite blocks using > the dimensions I took off a good one. It's all highly experimental right > now, but I'll report back on how it goes. > Christopher Parish > > On Tuesday, March 03, 2015 15:32, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > >Although I haven't yet deemed it scrap, one of my 5 'was-working-fine' > >RL02s isn't powering up correctly. Let me know if you find no sources > >more appropriate. > > > >On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > >> Does anyone have any scraped out RL drives with brushes they don't need? > >> > >> I need 4 or so and will pay cash (Paypal) or trade. > >> > >> Thanks, Paul > >> > From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Mar 3 19:24:09 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 17:24:09 -0800 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: > On Mar 3, 2015, at 16:56 , Paul Anderson wrote: > > Do you have a good source for graphite rod? I'm looking for some for > another project. McMaster-Carr carries graphite rod stock. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 3 19:29:44 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 20:29:44 -0500 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: > On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > >> On Mar 3, 2015, at 16:56 , Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> Do you have a good source for graphite rod? I'm looking for some for >> another project. > > McMaster-Carr carries graphite rod stock. So does Enco (use-enco.com), which often is less expensive (but doesn?t have quite the enormous selection of stuff that McMaster-Carr does). They call it ?EDM Rod? because these rods are used for the tool bits in electric discharge machines. paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 3 20:01:01 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 02:01:01 +0000 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB1DFB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Mouse Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 2:00 PM Regarding APL, I had said of my first encounters with it >> I thought it an interesting toy. > It is. But I'd say that's a positive thing; a language that isn't an > interesting toy - ie, isn't fun to play with - is unlikely to be much > good for anything larger. I was 18, and had just learned FORTRAN, COBOL, and PL/1 (still so spelled). I wasn't *ready* for the interesting languages. I met LISP 1.5 the next spring, and didn't see the use in that yet, either. I got better. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 21:54:16 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:54:16 -0600 Subject: RL01/02 spindle ground brushes In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEB2DB@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. Paul On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 7:29 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Mar 3, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > > > >> On Mar 3, 2015, at 16:56 , Paul Anderson wrote: > >> > >> Do you have a good source for graphite rod? I'm looking for some for > >> another project. > > > > McMaster-Carr carries graphite rod stock. > > So does Enco (use-enco.com), which often is less expensive (but doesn?t > have quite the enormous selection of stuff that McMaster-Carr does). They > call it ?EDM Rod? because these rods are used for the tool bits in electric > discharge machines. > > paul > > From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 4 00:05:15 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 22:05:15 -0800 Subject: Nicolet stuff In-Reply-To: References: <003601cfe4d3$573d47e0$05b7d7a0$@xs4all.nl> <543876FE.2020801@bitsavers.org> <005401cfe52e$da25cb40$8e7161c0$@xs4all.nl> <543950E4.5040906@sbcglobal.net> <00bf01cfe570$9d17bc30$d7473490$@com> <000101cfe656$44e92620$cebb7260$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 1, 2015 at 8:24 AM, dwight wrote: > Hi Bob > [snip] > I just got started again and found the address wouldn't increment. > After some frantic trouble shooting ( knowing it was Saturday and > most places would be closed tomorrow for parts ), I finally traced > it to a bad 7404. It is not easy without an extender card. > I'd attach a couple wires to locations I wanted to see and stick the > card back in. Yup, I've done that, too. It feels kludgy, but sometimes it's the only way to go. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 4 00:11:54 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 22:11:54 -0800 Subject: Patching vs. new code (was Re: Pascal not considered harmful) In-Reply-To: <54EC0EBC.8030905@sydex.com> References: <54EC0EBC.8030905@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/23/2015 09:17 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > My first (paid) programming job was in 6800 assembler, using the Motorola >> EXORCISER system. It took hours (as in a major part of a day, longer than >> the work day) to reassemble the entire code base, so we would patch the >> program in the PROM programmer. We would, of course, back port the >> changes >> in symbolic assembler to the source, and every few days just take the >> downtime hit to rebuild the code base. Keep in mind that this was >> natively >> hosted on a 6800 system. >> > > Well, I *know* that there was a cross-assembler for 6800 code. Even a > moderately small minicomputer would outpace a 6800. > > Patching is okay, as long as it doesn't become permanent. I have a memory > of 7080 COBOL production programs patched with Autocoder object. Of > course, nobody knew exactly what the patches did. > > One of the very good reasons to run legacy programs on emulation. > > I'm certain there are thousands of these stories. > > --Chuck > > > Yes, a cross-assembler would have run faster and provided better OS support (!) than the EXORciser, but the Powers That Be hadn't thought of that. And patching was accompanied by *hand-written* notes on an "authoritative" printed listing. Every so often we'd incorporate all the patches back into the sources and run a new "authoritative" build. Since the EXORciser monitor didn't spool its output, the printer's speed was the limiting factor - so a build would take HOURS. Those were the days?. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 14:42:51 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:42:51 +0100 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive Message-ID: I already checked the manuals on bitsavers, user, diagnostic and service manuals are there, together with scsi interface specifications... but no schematics. thanks for the help with measurements! could you confirm that the drive gives no interface error if powered without scsi connection to a host? thanks Andrea From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 3 15:01:03 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 21:01:03 +0000 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB047C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: shadoooo Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 12:43 PM > could you confirm that the drive gives no interface error if powered > without scsi connection to a host? BIFF is a real error. We OEM'd 9914s at XKL, and I have 2 of them here at the museum. I have had to send them to GreenTree in the past (once successfully, once not) for repair. I can confirm that if you power on the drive without a SCSI connection to the host, the drive is perfectly happy. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Mar 4 07:20:43 2015 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 13:20:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Someone is using Kickstarter to make new Commodore C64c cases Message-ID: <1807454170.2524613.1425475243242.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I thought this was rather interesting. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1670214687/original-commodore-64c-computer-housing-in-new-coo From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 4 08:37:40 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 06:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: New C-64C cases... Message-ID: Check this out: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1670214687/original-commodore-64c-computer-housing-in-new-coo/comments It's very tempting. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Mar 4 10:39:50 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:39:50 +0000 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> On Mar 3, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Mouse wrote: > Perhaps I'm just revealing the paucity of the languages I know, but it > does to me - in particular, it's one of the very few languages I know > in which arrays are first-class objects, and the only one I know with a > reasonably rich set of operators tuned for operating on arrays. Mouse, one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is Mathematica. I hesitate a little to recommend it, because for most of its history, the price of entry has been pretty high, but at the moment it?s a free download for Raspbian on Raspberry Pi, which puts it in the $50 US or so range, depending on what cables, power supplies, etc. you need to buy and assuming you already have monitor, KB, and mouse and can supply ethernet connection. I do recognize also that the language has a pretty steep learning curve. This is a reasonable description of the language and its place within programming styles. http://www.mathprogramming-intro.org/book/node66.html As you can maybe guess, I?m a fan and user, but not otherwise connected. - Mark From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 4 11:15:06 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:15:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Perhaps I'm just revealing the paucity of the languages I know [...] >> it's one of the very few languages I know in which arrays are >> first-class objects, and the only one I know with a reasonably rich >> set of operators tuned for operating on arrays. > one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is > Mathematica. I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion - on either its status as a language or its fit to my descriptive sketch. But it wouldn't surprise me if you're right. > I hesitate a little to recommend it, because for most of its history, > the price of entry has been pretty high, but at the moment it?s a > free download for Raspbian on Raspberry Pi, [...] It's not a criticism of the language, and it's a criticism of the implementation for only my own purposes, but it still carries the price of running closed-source code, which is too high for me. (Note that this is a personal judgement call. Others, obviously, make that tradeoff differently.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Wed Mar 4 11:20:08 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 11:20:08 -0600 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! He found original molds! That's amazing. On Wednesday, March 4, 2015, geneb wrote: > Check this out: > > https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1670214687/original- > commodore-64c-computer-housing-in-new-coo/comments > > It's very tempting. :) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 4 11:41:23 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 09:41:23 -0800 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> On 3/4/15 9:20 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > Wow! He found original molds! That's amazing. > I decided to get a set for CHM. This is the first time that I know of that anyone has done this. Like others have said, clear would have been an interesting option. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Mar 4 11:45:49 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 09:45:49 -0800 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 4, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>> Perhaps I'm just revealing the paucity of the languages I know [...] >>> it's one of the very few languages I know in which arrays are >>> first-class objects, and the only one I know with a reasonably rich >>> set of operators tuned for operating on arrays. > >> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >> Mathematica. > > I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion - on either its status > as a language or its fit to my descriptive sketch. But it wouldn't > surprise me if you're right. I've been using Mathematica for years. It's an extremely powerful tool. I especially like the whole notion of notebooks. I've also used MatLab which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really optimized around vectors and arrays. > >> I hesitate a little to recommend it, because for most of its history, >> the price of entry has been pretty high, but at the moment it?s a >> free download for Raspbian on Raspberry Pi, [...] > > It's not a criticism of the language, and it's a criticism of the > implementation for only my own purposes, but it still carries the price > of running closed-source code, which is too high for me. (Note that > this is a personal judgement call. Others, obviously, make that > tradeoff differently.) A somewhat similar tool is Maxima (a clone of Macsyma) that is derived from the original at MIT and work continued by DOE. I've never been rabid about closed vs open source. If there's a good tool that runs in an environment I use/have access to, I use it. I don't have the time to mess around with trying to get tools to work. After more than a decade of working on Linux (both personally and professionally) I finally gave up due to incompatibilities and getting into circular loops and the weeks spent trying to get a system configured that would run various tools (without having to have a different system for each tool). I had several cases where one program needed a specific version of a system library, another program needed a *different* specific version of the library and the rest of the system wanting yet a 3rd version of the same library. TTFN - Guy From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Mar 4 11:56:59 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 12:56:59 -0500 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> References: <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150304175659.GA7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Guy Sotomayor [150304 12:45]: [..SNIP..] > After more than a decade of working on Linux (both personally and > professionally) I finally gave up due to incompatibilities and getting into > circular loops and the weeks spent trying to get a system configured > that would run various tools (without having to have a different system > for each tool). I had several cases where one program needed a > specific version of a system library, another program needed a > *different* specific version of the library and the rest of the system > wanting yet a 3rd version of the same library. > > TTFN - Guy > After running into that particular package hell early on in my Linux experience, I switched to Gentoo linux where multiple versions of libraries can be installed at the same time and used by whatever software needs them. Todd From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:33:08 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 14:33:08 -0600 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I'd be happy with original color myself... but being c-64c-less at the moment I have no dog in this fight. Now if they have 128d bezel molds...: ) Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 4, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 3/4/15 9:20 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: >> Wow! He found original molds! That's amazing. > > I decided to get a set for CHM. This is the first time that > I know of that anyone has done this. > > Like others have said, clear would have been an interesting option. > > > From dmackey1 at twcny.rr.com Wed Mar 4 12:39:13 2015 From: dmackey1 at twcny.rr.com (Daniel Mackey) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 13:39:13 -0500 Subject: New C-64C cases... Message-ID: <39yp6mdu75cgj8m24xeluqfs.1425494353162@email.android.com> I'm in for one of each.? Sent on a Virgin Mobile Samsung Galaxy S? III
-------- Original message --------
From: geneb
Date:03/04/2015 9:37 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: New C-64C cases...
Check this out: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1670214687/original-commodore-64c-computer-housing-in-new-coo/comments It's very tempting. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:49:32 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 15:49:32 -0500 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 3:33 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I'd be happy with original color myself... but being c-64c-less at the moment I have no dog in this fight. I have a c-64c or two, but the red is tempting. >> On Mar 4, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Like others have said, clear would have been an interesting option. I would *definitely* have pounced on clear. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 15:17:51 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:17:51 -0500 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: <218476609.135092.1425503635997.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw02.lxa.perfora.net> References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> <218476609.135092.1425503635997.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxuslxltgw02.lxa.perfora.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On March 4, 2015 at 3:49 PM Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would *definitely* have pounced on clear. > > The kickstarter is funded, and the note he sent out said he would consider > more colors when the initial color stock is sold (500 of red/white/blue. > Most people seem to be focusing on clear and charcoal grey/black, so I would > expect those will be the next options. I did see that after I read the comments. Very cool. Clear and Black are definitely two good choices. -ethan From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Wed Mar 4 16:22:37 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 23:22:37 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <60E877E3-60F7-4F99-8C08-1A6D26629DF8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503042222.t24MMdiL032187-t24MMdiM032187@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Sorry Brent, did you means like this pic? https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5pj6lgbjos70fj/PowerSAFE.jpg?dl=0 Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert Inviato: marted? 3 marzo 2015 23:49 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > On 2015-Mar-03, at 11:00 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >> Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I >> previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : >> >> About powers: >> LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC >> TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC >> C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc >> >> I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. >> This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? Brent wrote: > 8V of a 7808 may be low/marginal for the 8.5V min specified in the LB1620 > datasheet (at least in the Sanyo one I'm looking at). > > You could add a diode or two in series with the GND leg of the 7808 to raise > the voltage to around 8.6V (1 diode) or 9.2V (2 diodes). > (cathode to GND, ordinary 1N400x for example).= > On 2015-Mar-03, at 2:25 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > I thought to this with a 7808: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ekj0bftrh86nhsa/PowerOK.jpg?dl=0 > to test before to resolder the new LB1620. > > Thanks for the kind support of all of you. > Enrico If you cut where you indicate and install the 7808 across that point, you will miss the supply point for the hall-effect sensors, they would still be supplied by the higher zener V (note R109 that takes off around the R112-D102 junction to head to the sensors). Rather than cutting the trace, I would just remove R112 & D102 and install the 7808 across the former R112 opening, with the aforementioned diode(s) in the GND leg. There's enough copper there you may be able to drill a new hole or two to catch the 7808 legs. (Alternatively, 9.1V zeners are pretty common.) From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Wed Mar 4 16:22:37 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 23:22:37 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <60E877E3-60F7-4F99-8C08-1A6D26629DF8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503042222.t24MMdiL032187-t24MMdiM032187@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Sorry Brent, did you means like this pic? https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5pj6lgbjos70fj/PowerSAFE.jpg?dl=0 Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Brent Hilpert Inviato: marted? 3 marzo 2015 23:49 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) > On 2015-Mar-03, at 11:00 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: >> Well, on the zener i measured 12,45V. So it is a 12V I think. Not 15V as I >> previous supposed. It power the pins as I written so : >> >> About powers: >> LB1612 pin 19 datasheet says 8-14VDC >> TC1642P pin 16 datasheet says 5-9.5VDC >> C358C pin 8 datasheet says until +32vdc >> >> I could try to substitute the zener with a 7808 ic 1W. >> This could keep all is not warm and protect. RIGHT? Brent wrote: > 8V of a 7808 may be low/marginal for the 8.5V min specified in the LB1620 > datasheet (at least in the Sanyo one I'm looking at). > > You could add a diode or two in series with the GND leg of the 7808 to raise > the voltage to around 8.6V (1 diode) or 9.2V (2 diodes). > (cathode to GND, ordinary 1N400x for example).= > On 2015-Mar-03, at 2:25 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > > I thought to this with a 7808: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/ekj0bftrh86nhsa/PowerOK.jpg?dl=0 > to test before to resolder the new LB1620. > > Thanks for the kind support of all of you. > Enrico If you cut where you indicate and install the 7808 across that point, you will miss the supply point for the hall-effect sensors, they would still be supplied by the higher zener V (note R109 that takes off around the R112-D102 junction to head to the sensors). Rather than cutting the trace, I would just remove R112 & D102 and install the 7808 across the former R112 opening, with the aforementioned diode(s) in the GND leg. There's enough copper there you may be able to drill a new hole or two to catch the 7808 legs. (Alternatively, 9.1V zeners are pretty common.) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 4 16:36:16 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 14:36:16 -0800 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503042222.t24MMdiL032187-t24MMdiM032187@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503042222.t24MMdiL032187-t24MMdiM032187@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <62B73720-4274-4F24-BC1C-69F8F57E7FEA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-04, at 2:22 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Sorry Brent, did you means like this pic? > https://www.dropbox.com/s/z5pj6lgbjos70fj/PowerSAFE.jpg?dl=0 Yes. I take it you found a 7809 instead of 7808, great. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 16:41:00 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 16:41:00 -0600 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Being from the USA, I'm not particularly familiar with the 64C version, which was less common here. Is it possible to use the internals of a standard, beige 'breadbin' 64 to fully populate one of these new 'C' cases? Will the keyboards & motherboards simply drop-in? Do they use the same DIN-type power connectors? On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/4/15 9:20 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > >> Wow! He found original molds! That's amazing. >> >> > I decided to get a set for CHM. This is the first time that > I know of that anyone has done this. > > Like others have said, clear would have been an interesting option. > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 4 17:07:09 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 15:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Mar 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > Being from the USA, I'm not particularly familiar with the 64C version, > which was less common here. > > Is it possible to use the internals of a standard, beige 'breadbin' 64 to > fully populate one of these new 'C' cases? Will the keyboards & > motherboards simply drop-in? Do they use the same DIN-type power connectors? > Internally the cases are identical to the breadbins. They were also VERY common in the US. The 64C case design started shipping some time in 1986. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From brain at jbrain.com Wed Mar 4 18:22:26 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2015 18:22:26 -0600 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54F7A1C2.80102@jbrain.com> On 3/4/2015 5:07 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 4 Mar 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > >> Being from the USA, I'm not particularly familiar with the 64C version, >> which was less common here. >> >> Is it possible to use the internals of a standard, beige 'breadbin' >> 64 to >> fully populate one of these new 'C' cases? Will the keyboards & >> motherboards simply drop-in? Do they use the same DIN-type power >> connectors? >> > Internally the cases are identical to the breadbins. They were also > VERY common in the US. The 64C case design started shipping some time > in 1986. > > g. > I have moved a c64 mobo to the c64c case, and there are a few things: * You need to be aware of the KB. Newer c64cs have the KB connector on the middle right of the mobo (the e boards, or some such, too lazy to google the exact part no.). Anyway, if you want the c64c KB and a std c64 mobo, you need to find an older c64c kb (I think the ones that do *NOT* have F2/4/6/8 printed on the key top), so the cord will be long enough, or make an extension cable. The power LED cable might also be an issue, but that's not a big deal. * On the c64c, the top of the KB mounts with some little brackets that are not on the breadbin case. You'll liekly need those. * The c64c uses some funky screw head. Pitch those screws and use phillips :-) I think that is all it took to move the boards. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ryan at hack.net Wed Mar 4 19:28:44 2015 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 19:28:44 -0600 Subject: New C-64C cases... In-Reply-To: References: <54F743C3.9070503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > I would *definitely* have pounced on clear. > Ditto for clear. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 20:17:28 2015 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 03:17:28 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL Message-ID: On 4 March 2015 at 18:56, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Guy Sotomayor [150304 12:45]: >>[...] I had several cases where one program needed a >> specific version of a system library, another program needed a >> *different* specific version of the library and the rest of the system >> wanting yet a 3rd version of the same library. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > > After running into that particular package hell early on in my Linux > experience, I switched to Gentoo linux where multiple versions of > libraries can be installed at the same time and used by whatever > software needs them. > > Todd As can Debian, so I'm a bit surprised. It's straight forward on *nix-like systems to have multiple run-time versions of a library. It's designed for it. The problem is when you need different *compile time* (aka development) versions of a library, then you'll need to have different name spaces. The remaining issue may be that the distro may not provide different versions of all the libraries you need out of the box. Then there will be additional work. And that may or may not be more effort than it's worth, granted. -Tor From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 23:37:21 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 05:37:21 -0000 Subject: Anyone have a M8340 (EAE) schematic rev.D? Or M8341 rev.D sch? In-Reply-To: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> References: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 4:23 PM, Stephen Lafferty wrote: > PS: The revision letter can be found in the lower right-hand corner of the > DEC schematics that I have. Note that the schematic revision (CS) and the corresponding etch revision often do not match. A particular etch can have different levels of ECO corresponding to different schematic revisions, and a particular schematic revision might correspond to both an older etch with ECOs and a newer etc without ECOs (or with fewer ECOs). The schematic revision is supposed to be stamped on the board or handle, and updated if ECOs are applied in the field, but they're not always marked correctly. The field maintenance print sets often, but not always, have a table listing the correspondences. From steve at tronola.com Wed Mar 4 23:23:42 2015 From: steve at tronola.com (Stephen Lafferty) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 05:23:42 -0000 Subject: Anyone have a M8340 (EAE) schematic rev.D? Or M8341 rev.D sch? Message-ID: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> Hi Folks, We're trying to get an EAE (extended arithmetic element) board set working in a PDP-8/e. It turns out that DEC made changes which render M8340 rev.D incompatible with M8341 rev.D. (Both of the boards we have are rev.D, sigh.) M8340 rev.D requires at least an M8341 rev.E. We would like to modify the boards to be compatible but the only schematic of M8340 that we've been able to find is rev.F. So it's difficult to figure out what changes are needed. If anyone has an M8340 schematic earlier than rev.F or an M8341 rev.D sch, that would be a huge help. The goal is to get Spacewar! working on the PDP-8/e for the upcoming VCFSE show. This version of Spacewar! requires the EAE. We GOTTA get Spacewar! working for the PDP-8's 50th! :) Please help. Thanks, Steve PS: The revision letter can be found in the lower right-hand corner of the DEC schematics that I have. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 00:22:04 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 06:22:04 -0000 Subject: Anyone have a M8340 (EAE) schematic rev.D? Or M8341 rev.D sch? In-Reply-To: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> References: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> Message-ID: I've been in touch with Kyle, and can't find my boards. I have 2 sets that should be here by Friday and will check the revs as soon as they get here. I will try to look for prints and fiche by tomorrow night. I plan on sending a package to Kyle by Friday, express mail. Do either of you have access to a fiche reader? If there is anything else I can do let me know. Paul On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Stephen Lafferty wrote: > Hi Folks, > > We're trying to get an EAE (extended arithmetic element) board set working > in a PDP-8/e. It turns out that DEC made changes which render M8340 rev.D > incompatible with M8341 rev.D. (Both of the boards we have are rev.D, > sigh.) M8340 rev.D requires at least an M8341 rev.E. > > We would like to modify the boards to be compatible but the only schematic > of M8340 that we've been able to find is rev.F. So it's difficult to figure > out what changes are needed. > > If anyone has an M8340 schematic earlier than rev.F or an M8341 rev.D sch, > that would be a huge help. > > The goal is to get Spacewar! working on the PDP-8/e for the upcoming VCFSE > show. This version of Spacewar! requires the EAE. We GOTTA get Spacewar! > working for the PDP-8's 50th! :) Please help. > > Thanks, > Steve > > PS: The revision letter can be found in the lower right-hand corner of the > DEC schematics that I have. > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 00:56:47 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 06:56:47 -0000 Subject: Anyone have a M8340 (EAE) schematic rev.D? Or M8341 rev.D sch? In-Reply-To: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> References: <54F793F1.1090906@tronola.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Stephen Lafferty wrote: > > We're trying to get an EAE (extended arithmetic element) board set working > in a PDP-8/e. It turns out that DEC made changes which render M8340 rev.D > incompatible with M8341 rev.D. (Both of the boards we have are rev.D, > sigh.) M8340 rev.D requires at least an M8341 rev.E. > > We would like to modify the boards to be compatible but the only schematic > of M8340 that we've been able to find is rev.F. So it's difficult to figure > out what changes are needed. > > If anyone has an M8340 schematic earlier than rev.F or an M8341 rev.D sch, > that would be a huge help. One small correction: M8340 Rev. D is compatible with M8341 Rev. C and earlier, from best I can tell from the DEC ECO Log. I don't think there were many changes between M8341 Rev. D and E. An M8341 Rev. C schematic would help to establish the differences between incompatible board sets. If anyone has a Rev. C (or earlier, even) and is willing to scan both sides, I can attempt to make a schematic. I'm working on that right now for the M8340 Rev. D. Right now, obvious differences between M8340 Rev. D and F are that two ICs have been dropped (both DEC 380s) and a 74H40 has been exchanged for a 74H11. I'm betting that the logic change there created the incompatibilities they mention. By the way, I did try running these boards in my 8/M; multiply seems to work fine, but divide returns the wrong answer. I didn't do any more testing after that (and instead read the ECO Log and found out the incompatibility reference). A big thanks to Steve, Chuck D., and Jack R. for their help in providing boards and pictures so far! Kyle From martin at shackspace.de Thu Mar 5 11:19:15 2015 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 18:19:15 +0100 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 service manual Message-ID: <20150305171915.GA6187@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi! Anyone owning the service manual for an ADM-5? Seems like this terminal is not as common as the ADM-3(A). Couldn't find it on bitsavers or anywhere else :( --map -- Martin Peters martin.peters at news.uni-stuttgart.de From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 5 11:35:57 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 17:35:57 +0000 (WET) Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 service manual In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 05 Mar 2015 18:19:15 +0100" <20150305171915.GA6187@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <01PJ992YWYEC0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> Martin Peters wrote: > > Anyone owning the service manual for an ADM-5? > Seems like this terminal is not as common as the ADM-3(A). > Couldn't find it on bitsavers or anywhere else :( > I'm looking for one too. I did find the service manual for the ADM-3A (on bitsavers I think) and some of the ciruitry is similar or the same so it might be of some use to you. Unfortunately, the fault in my ADM-5 appears to be in a part of the circuit which they do not have in common. I wonder was the ADM-3A more common though? In the college where I came across them, there was row after row of ADM-5 terminals but only a single ADM-3A which nobody liked using, mainly because there were difficulties clearing the screen. But 25 years later, there is much discussion of the ADM-3A and everyone seems to want one while the ADM-5 barely gets a mention. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 5 11:56:39 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 12:56:39 -0500 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 service manual In-Reply-To: <01PJ992YWYEC0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150305171915.GA6187@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <01PJ992YWYEC0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20150305175639.GA13945@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 05, 2015 at 05:35:57PM +0000, Peter Coghlan wrote: >I wonder was the ADM-3A more common though? In the college where I came across >them, there was row after row of ADM-5 terminals but only a single ADM-3A which >nobody liked using, mainly because there were difficulties clearing the screen. >But 25 years later, there is much discussion of the ADM-3A and everyone seems >to want one while the ADM-5 barely gets a mention. I wonder if it's because it's 25 years? It makes sense that the later model would be selling then. During the 1980s we had tons of "blue pigs" (ADM-3As) around but I don't think I've ever even seen an ADM-5. John Wilson D Bit From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Mar 5 12:09:16 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 13:09:16 -0500 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150305180916.GZ7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Tor Arntsen [150304 21:17]: > On 4 March 2015 at 18:56, Todd Goodman wrote: > > * Guy Sotomayor [150304 12:45]: > >>[...] I had several cases where one program needed a > >> specific version of a system library, another program needed a > >> *different* specific version of the library and the rest of the system > >> wanting yet a 3rd version of the same library. > >> > >> TTFN - Guy > >> > > > > After running into that particular package hell early on in my Linux > > experience, I switched to Gentoo linux where multiple versions of > > libraries can be installed at the same time and used by whatever > > software needs them. > > > > Todd > > As can Debian, so I'm a bit surprised. It's straight forward on *nix-like > systems to have multiple run-time versions of a library. It's designed > for it. > The problem is when you need different *compile time* (aka development) > versions of a library, then you'll need to have different name spaces. > The remaining issue may be that the distro may not provide different > versions of all the libraries you need out of the box. Then there will > be additional > work. And that may or may not be more effort than it's worth, granted. > > -Tor You don't strictly need different namespaces even at compile time, just to pull the library in from a different install location (and set the proper link options on the build. This is a lot easier under Gentoo than in Debian or RedHat or other binary distros (IMNSHO.) And while it's not hard to add a PPD or whatever it's called for Debian, it's exceedingly easy to add a slotted ebuild on Gentoo supporting a new version of a library that can be installed alongside other versions of the same library (runtime and compiletime on Gentoo.) But to each their own. Todd From bob099 at centurytel.net Thu Mar 5 12:17:25 2015 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 12:17:25 -0600 Subject: Looking for manuals for a Gridpad 1910 Message-ID: <54F89DB5.1000009@centurytel.net> I have a working 1910, everything seems to be working. Except the memory cards, not sure if they are bad or I don't know how to check them. On screen keyboard is working as good or bad as expected, battery is dead but looks easily rebuildable. Most of DOS seems to be missing, can it be replaced with Free Dos or another version? -- But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel I Timothy 5:8 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 5 12:34:30 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 18:34:30 +0000 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 Message-ID: Can anyone tell me anything about the subject: line? It seems to be a high-end graphics terminal from the mid 1970s. I have found the electronics unit while unpacking here, I think I have the keyboard (with a little built-in joystick?) somewhere too. I don't have the monitor, but I am guessing it's TV rates. Pysically it's just a metal box (about the size of a 4U rack unit without flanges). There is nothing on the front panel. The back panel has the on/off switch and connectors for a keyboard (DA15), 'Digital Video' (ditto), Host and Downstream RS232 ports (DB25, of course) Host and Dowstream current loop ports (DE9), 3 video outputs (BNC, I assume these can be used as R,G,B), mix video output (ditto) and video input (my guess is that the terminal video can be overlayed on some other video signal, again a BNC). The top cover comes off with 2 screws. It reveals very little apart from a massive linear PSU. The interesting stuff is exposed by removing the front panel (4 screws) which gives access to the card cage. There are 2 columns of half-width cards at the top, then about 7 full width ones. 2 of the half-width cards are wire-wrapped not PCBs. I forget what they do, one of them seems to be the video timing/sync counters. On other half-width cards are the processor (6800), ROMs (lots of EPROMs),Comms, video output (resistor DACs, etc) and a 'vector generator' which I guess is to draw lines, it's just a lot of of logic ICs, no microprocessor. One of the full-width cards is something like 'area fill'. So it does that in hardware too? The others -- and there are half a dozen of them -- are 'Pixel Store'. Each has 16K*16 of DRAM and a 16 bit ALU (4 off 74181). I hate to think how much this cost when new. RAM and ALUs were not cheap! -tony From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Mar 5 14:57:04 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:57:04 +0100 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Hi at all, a friend of mine, has an old working IBM PS/2 model 30. She needs to change its broken hard disk that is a IBM 20mb Part number 72x7568, model WDI-325Q. The broken hard disk is similar to this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ and its cable is like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2473802378/ Well this cable has 44pins and it cabled in different way from modern IDE cables. THe 44pins cable is described here: http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/misc/IBM_IDE.html Well the question is: if she can't find a working used hard disk for this machine, how could she solve for connect a new hard disk (i suggested to use a ide to cf adapter with a 32mb max cf card, but the ide connector has 40 pins so it should necessary to realize a specified cabling from the ps/2 hard disk connector to the ide to cf card connector) Thanks in advance Enrico From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 15:06:55 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:06:55 -0500 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 3:57 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi at all, > a friend of mine, has an old working IBM PS/2 model 30. She needs to change > its broken hard disk When we used a PS/2 Model 30 for our accounting machine and we needed more than 20MB, we just went with an ISA MFM drive adapter (WD WX-1 or similar) and a "modern" (for the early 90s) 3.5" ST-506-type drive around 50MB or so (ISTR under DOS there was one 30MB partition and some leftover). I think we had to move one jumper on the planar board. I don't know IBM's IDE scheme for the PS/2, but Western Digital did have some 8-bit IDE drives (seen in some Commodore equipment) that is *not* the same as 16-bit "ATA" IDE. I think your best bet is an 8-bit interface to either CF or SCSI. 8-bit IDE is a bit rare. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 5 15:20:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 13:20:58 -0800 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> On 03/05/2015 01:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think your best bet is an 8-bit interface to either CF or SCSI. > 8-bit IDE is a bit rare. Agreed (8 bit IDE/XTA is uncommon) and an ISA XTIDE adapter might work. This showed up on the Vintage Computer list today; so there may be some hope for you and the XTA interface: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46618-TRUE-IDE-8-bit-XT-%28XTA%29-Hard-Disk-Replacement --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 5 15:53:53 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:53:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Tektronix 1240/41 diagnostic lead sets - resend Message-ID: <20150305215353.0B0D318C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> For the benefit of those (like me) who read CCTalk via the Web archive, and thus missed this as it came in during the period when the server thought it was 1970 (and it thus went into the March 1970 archive... :-), a re-send: -------- Hello all, I'm setting up to make one of these (part # 012-0556-00) for my own use, and can easily make more if anyone needs any (although I will need to order some of the parts needed, if so). So if anyone needs one, and would like me to produce one for them, please let me know (ASAP, so I can order the parts). I imagine the cost will be on the order of $10-$15. Note that i) you have to have a P6460 probe/pod to use them (the TTL P6462 probe/pod will _not_ work), and ii) full automatic testing on a 1240D2 18 channel Data Aquisition Card requires a pair of diagnostic leads (which is why I'm making one - I found one on eBay, but only one). Noel From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Mar 5 15:58:58 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 16:58:58 -0500 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20150305215858.GR7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Chuck Guzis [150305 16:21]: > On 03/05/2015 01:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I think your best bet is an 8-bit interface to either CF or SCSI. > > 8-bit IDE is a bit rare. > > Agreed (8 bit IDE/XTA is uncommon) and an ISA XTIDE adapter might work. > > This showed up on the Vintage Computer list today; so there may be some > hope for you and the XTA interface: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?46618-TRUE-IDE-8-bit-XT-%28XTA%29-Hard-Disk-Replacement > > --Chuck > I have bare XT-IDE and XT-CF-Lite boards available the OP wants to have a little fun... http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=XT-IDE%20V2 http://www.malinov.com/Home/sergeys-projects/xt-cf-lite Todd From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:22:06 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 00:22:06 +0100 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5 March 2015 at 22:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Agreed (8 bit IDE/XTA is uncommon) Someone built an 8-bit IDE interface for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum by the simple expedient of throwing away the upper byte of each word. You only got half the capacity of the medium, but the electronics were pleasantly simple. http://www.retroisle.com/sinclair/zxspectrum/Technical/Hardware/spectrum+3e%20-%20ide_if.php Might an adaptation of that principle be doable? An 8-bit IDE interface that gave half the capacity of a largish CF card? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 5 18:29:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 16:29:50 -0800 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> <54F8C8BA.3020400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <54F8F4FE.3070204@sydex.com> On 03/05/2015 03:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 5 March 2015 at 22:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Agreed (8 bit IDE/XTA is uncommon) > > > Someone built an 8-bit IDE interface for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum by > the simple expedient of throwing away the upper byte of each word. You > only got half the capacity of the medium, but the electronics were > pleasantly simple. AFAIK, all CF cards support 8-bit transfer mode (unlike almost all IDE drives). The problem is that the XTA interface is more like that to an XT hard disk controller. CF's and IDE drives are based on the PC AT hard disk interface. And therein lies the rub. Electrically, the interfaces are similar enough to convert an XTA interface to ATA with only some minor changes. But the port and register conventions are very different. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 21:34:23 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 21:34:23 -0600 Subject: WTB or trade: RA60 parts Message-ID: If you have any RA60 parts or drives you are parting out, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Mar 6 00:27:40 2015 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 07:27:40 +0100 Subject: Teleray Micricon 82306-3 on ebay Message-ID: Hello everybody, stumbled across this while looking for a HP 82306C GPIO Card to go with my 11835 data buffer (hint hint). Looks just old and arcane enough that it might be of some interest to the community here ;) http://www.ebay.com/itm/251594970760 (no ending date given, BIN/OBO) Micricon 823 Chassis Microprocessor 82306-3 Teleray NASA Research Lot of Two No association whatsoever to the seller, not interested in bidding on the item (TWO units) myself. Then again, if somebody decides to go for it and wants to split up (provided this can be made into two reasonably complete units), we can talk. I'm in Europe but can effect PayPal payments and CONUS -> EUR shipping with some (reasonable) effort. So Long, Arno From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 5 15:14:16 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 23:14:16 +0200 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool find! > One of the full-width cards is something like 'area fill'. So it does that in hardware too? Yes, probably, it is not that big trick (in theory). Example Amiga's custom chipsets was capable for area fill (line mode), and btw, prototype of that custom chip set was made from TTL chips:http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/cbm-lorraine-portrait.jpg Please send some photos of that Sigma's miracle! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2015 18:34:30 +0000 > > Can anyone tell me anything about the subject: line? It seems to be a high-end graphics terminal from the > mid 1970s. I have found the electronics unit while unpacking here, I think I have the keyboard (with a little > built-in joystick?) somewhere too. I don't have the monitor, but I am guessing it's TV rates. > > Pysically it's just a metal box (about the size of a 4U rack unit without flanges). There is nothing on the front > panel. The back panel has the on/off switch and connectors for a keyboard (DA15), 'Digital Video' (ditto), > Host and Downstream RS232 ports (DB25, of course) Host and Dowstream current loop ports (DE9), 3 video > outputs (BNC, I assume these can be used as R,G,B), mix video output (ditto) and video input (my guess is that > the terminal video can be overlayed on some other video signal, again a BNC). > > The top cover comes off with 2 screws. It reveals very little apart from a massive linear PSU. The interesting > stuff is exposed by removing the front panel (4 screws) which gives access to the card cage. There are 2 > columns of half-width cards at the top, then about 7 full width ones. 2 of the half-width cards are wire-wrapped > not PCBs. I forget what they do, one of them seems to be the video timing/sync counters. On other half-width > cards are the processor (6800), ROMs (lots of EPROMs),Comms, video output (resistor DACs, etc) and > a 'vector generator' which I guess is to draw lines, it's just a lot of of logic ICs, no microprocessor. > > One of the full-width cards is something like 'area fill'. So it does that in hardware too? The others -- and there > are half a dozen of them -- are 'Pixel Store'. Each has 16K*16 of DRAM and a 16 bit ALU (4 off 74181). > > I hate to think how much this cost when new. RAM and ALUs were not cheap! > > -tony From sander.reiche at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 17:00:11 2015 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 00:00:11 +0100 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane Message-ID: Hi all, I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. Does anyone have one available? With kind regards, Sander Reiche the Netherlands From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 6 00:07:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 06:07:10 +0000 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Cool find! I think I rescued it about 25 years ago, as it looked interesting. It then got somewhat hidden in my old house and has turned up in the move. Fortuantely [1] my new house is mine alone so I can put classic computers everywhere [1] Don't take that the wrong way. I wish my parents were still alive, I think of them every day. But living in their house meant I had to (very reasonably) go with their rules. > > One of the full-width cards is something like 'area fill'. So it does that in hardware too? > > Yes, probably, it is not that big trick (in theory). Example Amiga's custom chipsets was capable for area fill (line > mode), and btw, prototype of that custom chip set was made from TTL chips:http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits > /ckb/secret/cbm-lorraine-portrait.jpg Sure. My guess is that the line drawing on this terminal is going to be similar to that on the HP2623. A simple state machine where the main CPU (in the HP a Z80, in the Sigma a 6800) calculates various parameters and the state machine goes along setting pixels. The area fill board is perhaps 50 or so TTL ICs. Not complex really. But I think it is a high-end feature for a 1970s terminal. > > Please send some photos of that Sigma's miracle! Will do. -tony From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 03:08:46 2015 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 10:08:46 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <20150305180916.GZ7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20150305180916.GZ7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: On 5 March 2015 at 19:09, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Tor Arntsen [150304 21:17]: >> On 4 March 2015 at 18:56, Todd Goodman wrote: >> > After running into that particular package hell early on in my Linux >> > experience, I switched to Gentoo linux where multiple versions of >> > libraries can be installed at the same time and used by whatever >> > software needs them. >> > >> > Todd >> >> As can Debian, so I'm a bit surprised. It's straight forward on *nix-like >> systems to have multiple run-time versions of a library. It's designed >> for it. >> The problem is when you need different *compile time* (aka development) >> versions of a library, then you'll need to have different name spaces. >> The remaining issue may be that the distro may not provide different >> versions of all the libraries you need out of the box. Then there will >> be additional >> work. And that may or may not be more effort than it's worth, granted. >> >> -Tor > > You don't strictly need different namespaces even at compile time, > just to pull the library in from a different install location (and set > the proper link options on the build. > > This is a lot easier under Gentoo than in Debian or RedHat or other > binary distros (IMNSHO.) > > And while it's not hard to add a PPD or whatever it's called for Debian, > it's exceedingly easy to add a slotted ebuild on Gentoo supporting a new > version of a library that can be installed alongside other versions of > the same library (runtime and compiletime on Gentoo.) It's no much different from Debian really. You're of course free to build from source there too, apt-get source instead of apt-get install, and then build and install. It seems to me the difference is more in the focus of the package management system, where Gentoo's 'emerge' nominal method is a package from source (but binary is possible), while on Debian the nominal method is from binary (but source is possible). And in any case, on any *nix it's of course no problem keeping different versions (with the same naming - in this case libsomething.so) anywhere. But it's a matter of personal preference exactly which distro feels best for you. For me .deb-based systems totally beat .rpm-based ones, for example, but not everyone would agree. And I can easily accept that Gentoo may be better prepared to parallel-install compile time libraries and still be under package management, but it's a matter of degree, not ability. -Tor From martin at shackspace.de Fri Mar 6 04:25:43 2015 From: martin at shackspace.de (Martin Peters) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:25:43 +0100 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-5 service manual In-Reply-To: <01PJ992YWYEC0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20150305171915.GA6187@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> <01PJ992YWYEC0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20150306102543.GA21474@zdi2.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Hi Peter! Peter Coghlan: > Martin Peters wrote: > > > > Anyone owning the service manual for an ADM-5? > > Seems like this terminal is not as common as the ADM-3(A). > > Couldn't find it on bitsavers or anywhere else :( > > > > I'm looking for one too. I did find the service manual for the ADM-3A (on > bitsavers I think) and some of the ciruitry is similar or the same so it might > be of some use to you. Yes, we got an ADM-3A here and I know that there are similarities. Anyhow, it's not the same. Reassuring the details und finding out the differences often is a lot of work. > Unfortunately, the fault in my ADM-5 appears to be in > a part of the circuit which they do not have in common. > > I wonder was the ADM-3A more common though? I think so. The ADM-3A is documented well and you can find much references and images of the terminal itself and its circuit board in the web, in contrast to the ADM-5. Ok, probably this is because of the ADM-3A being much more popular because of it's historical impact on the Unix history and the origins of the vi editor. > In the college where I came across > them, there was row after row of ADM-5 terminals but only a single ADM-3A which > nobody liked using, mainly because there were difficulties clearing the screen. > But 25 years later, there is much discussion of the ADM-3A and everyone seems > to want one while the ADM-5 barely gets a mention. Ok. Probably this is because of the ADM-3A being much more popular because of it's historical impact on the Unix history and the origins of the vi editor. --map -- Martin Peters martin.peters at news.uni-stuttgart.de From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Mar 6 07:59:51 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 08:59:51 -0500 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: References: <20150305180916.GZ7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <20150306135951.GZ7189@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Tor Arntsen [150306 04:08]: > On 5 March 2015 at 19:09, Todd Goodman wrote: > > * Tor Arntsen [150304 21:17]: > >> On 4 March 2015 at 18:56, Todd Goodman wrote: > > >> > After running into that particular package hell early on in my Linux > >> > experience, I switched to Gentoo linux where multiple versions of > >> > libraries can be installed at the same time and used by whatever > >> > software needs them. > >> > > >> > Todd > >> > >> As can Debian, so I'm a bit surprised. It's straight forward on *nix-like > >> systems to have multiple run-time versions of a library. It's designed > >> for it. > >> The problem is when you need different *compile time* (aka development) > >> versions of a library, then you'll need to have different name spaces. > >> The remaining issue may be that the distro may not provide different > >> versions of all the libraries you need out of the box. Then there will > >> be additional > >> work. And that may or may not be more effort than it's worth, granted. > >> > >> -Tor > > > > You don't strictly need different namespaces even at compile time, > > just to pull the library in from a different install location (and set > > the proper link options on the build. > > > > This is a lot easier under Gentoo than in Debian or RedHat or other > > binary distros (IMNSHO.) > > > > And while it's not hard to add a PPD or whatever it's called for Debian, > > it's exceedingly easy to add a slotted ebuild on Gentoo supporting a new > > version of a library that can be installed alongside other versions of > > the same library (runtime and compiletime on Gentoo.) > > It's no much different from Debian really. You're of course free to > build from source there too, apt-get source instead of apt-get > install, and then build and install. It seems to me the difference is > more in the focus of the package management system, where Gentoo's > 'emerge' nominal method is a package from source (but binary is > possible), while on Debian the nominal method is from binary (but > source is possible). And in any case, on any *nix it's of course no > problem keeping different versions (with the same naming - in this > case libsomething.so) anywhere. > But it's a matter of personal preference exactly which distro feels > best for you. For me .deb-based systems totally beat .rpm-based ones, > for example, but not everyone would agree. And I can easily accept > that Gentoo may be better prepared to parallel-install compile time > libraries and still be under package management, but it's a matter of > degree, not ability. > > -Tor Yes exactly, Gentoo's package manager is source-centric which makes it really easy to support bringing your special build under the package umbrella to work with it instead of against it. There are sometimes problems with the *nix method of shared library versioning (e.g., when upstream doesn't bump .so versions or does a minor when they should do a major.) Yes, it's a matter of personal preference. It's good to be aware of the different options available though and I just wanted to let people know what's worked for me. Your mileage may vary, etc. Todd From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 6 08:40:38 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:40:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>> Mathematica. >> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] > I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab > which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really > optimized around vectors and arrays. That might be more similar to APL, then. This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is that they're single-implementation. Most of the things normally thought of as programming languages are more or less independent of their implementations, with multiple independent implementations. Things like Mathematica, while they certainly can be seen as languages, have only one implementation, often have an imprecise (or no!) spec beyond "what the implementation does", and sometimes even come from vendors who think they own the language somehow, throwing around lawyers if anyone else tries to create an independent implementation. (I don't know which, if either, of those applies to Mathematica specifically, but I _have_ seen examples of each.) This makes them less useful; for example, even if I were willing to run someone else's binary, I doubt Mathematica exists for NetBSD/sparc 1.4T. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 6 10:28:57 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 10:28:57 -0600 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> On 03/05/2015 05:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not > mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA > (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, > cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. > > Unibus or Q-bus? I have some Q-bus backplanes that came from the WELL. Picked them up at some surplus place in the bay area, I think probably Mike Quinn's. The backplanes don't have a manufacturer's label. They may have been custom made by the WELL, I don't know. I also don't know if they are Q-18 or Q-22. They have a card cage, cooling fan and Todd power supply. I have two of them. Jon From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 6 11:30:30 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 18:30:30 +0100 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 10:28:57AM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/05/2015 05:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > >Hi all, > > > >I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not > >mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA > >(4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, > >cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. > > > > > Unibus or Q-bus? I have some Q-bus backplanes that came from the > WELL. > Picked them up at some surplus place in the bay area, I think > probably Mike > Quinn's. > > The backplanes don't have a manufacturer's label. They may have > been custom > made by the WELL, I don't know. I also don't know if they are Q-18 > or Q-22. > They have a card cage, cooling fan and Todd power supply. I have > two of them. > > Jon What size? /P From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Mar 6 11:44:12 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 18:44:12 +0100 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1425663852.4323.2.camel@hpdc7k.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2015-03-05 klockan 18:34 +0000 skrev tony duell: > Can anyone tell me anything about the subject: line? It seems to be a high-end graphics terminal from the > mid 1970s. I have found the electronics unit while unpacking here, I think I have the keyboard (with a little > built-in joystick?) somewhere too. I don't have the monitor, but I am guessing it's TV rates. > I think that the school were i was 1988-1989 had one of those. The school had an PR1ME 9955. The student computer association had the terminal. We mainly used it to view mandelbrot sets. It took 4 hours to render a complete screen. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 6 11:48:51 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 09:48:51 -0800 Subject: Teleray Micricon 82306-3 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hello everybody, > > stumbled across this while looking for a HP 82306C GPIO Card to go with my 11835 data buffer (hint hint). > Looks just old and arcane enough that it might be of some interest to the community here ;) What is an HP 82306C GPIO Interface? Is that the same as thing as an 82306A? http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=1111 http://www.ebay.com/itm/281557879632 From simski at dds.nl Fri Mar 6 06:33:15 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 13:33:15 +0100 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54F99E8B.70802@dds.nl> ja. kom maar eens kijken bij hack42.nl in arnhem. we hebben wel wat :-) waar zit je ergens? On 06-03-15 00:00, Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not > mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA > (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, > cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. > > Does anyone have one available? > > With kind regards, > > Sander Reiche > the Netherlands > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From scaron at umich.edu Fri Mar 6 10:28:38 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 11:28:38 -0500 Subject: Teleray Micricon 82306-3 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting... appears to be some kind of temperature controller... I found a NASA technical report that mentions it and discusses some of the specs; apparently it's based on the Signetics 2650A at 1.25 MHz and according to the spec sheet, it's designed to use standard 4-20 mA interface to instruments, etc. Maybe worth it if someone's looking to hunt down some 2650A CPUs and maybe some support chips for a vintage SBC project. http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19870004136.pdf Best, Sean On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Hello everybody, > > stumbled across this while looking for a HP 82306C GPIO Card to go with my > 11835 data buffer (hint hint). > Looks just old and arcane enough that it might be of some interest to the > community here ;) > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251594970760 (no ending date given, BIN/OBO) > Micricon 823 Chassis Microprocessor 82306-3 Teleray NASA Research Lot of > Two > > No association whatsoever to the seller, not interested in bidding on the > item (TWO units) myself. Then again, if somebody decides to go for it and > wants to split up (provided this can be made into two reasonably complete > units), we can talk. I'm in Europe but can effect PayPal payments and CONUS > -> EUR shipping with some (reasonable) effort. > > So Long, > Arno > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 6 12:33:26 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 13:33:26 -0500 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: <, > Message-ID: > On Mar 6, 2015, at 1:07 AM, tony duell wrote: >> ... >> One of the full-width cards is something like 'area fill'. So it does that in hardware too? >> >> Yes, probably, it is not that big trick (in theory). Example Amiga's custom chipsets was capable for area fill (line >> mode), and btw, prototype of that custom chip set was made from TTL chips:http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits >> /ckb/secret/cbm-lorraine-portrait.jpg > > Sure. My guess is that the line drawing on this terminal is going to be similar to that on the HP2623. A simple > state machine where the main CPU (in the HP a Z80, in the Sigma a 6800) calculates various parameters and > the state machine goes along setting pixels. The area fill board is perhaps 50 or so TTL ICs. Not complex > really. But I think it is a high-end feature for a 1970s terminal. It?s interesting to compare with the PLATO terminals. The first plasma panel terminal (?PLATO IV?, ?Magnavox?) is from the early 1970, all hardwired logic. It does line drawing in hardware, essentially the Bresenham algorithm. It doesn?t have area fill. The ?PLATO V? terminal is a 1976 successor, using an 8080 with some hardware assist (the Bresenham per-pixel step is in hardware, but the full line loop is in software). That one initially did not have area fill but a somewhat later successor added that, in software. So, high end feature, I suppose; PLATO terminals were used in fair numbers but were not mainstream graphics terminals. paul From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Mar 6 16:02:27 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2015 19:02:27 -0300 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <00fa01d05859$413c0310$c3b40930$@computer.org> Enrico: If it isn't broke don't fix it. U likely have a perfectly good controller for any ST412 type MFM HDD controller. Why would you even consider and IDE or SCSI drive when there are many good refurbished MFM drives available at capacities well above the 20 MB you are replacing. Personally I would look for a Maxtor or a Quantum drive staying away from the stepper motor types, like the one u are replacing. Just Google, "MFM HDD drive for sale" Select anyone that claims an ST412 interface from a reputable vendor, I bet u can even find one in Italy :-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Lazzerini [mailto:enrico.lazzerini at email.it] Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 5:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 Hi at all, a friend of mine, has an old working IBM PS/2 model 30. She needs to change its broken hard disk that is a IBM 20mb Part number 72x7568, model WDI-325Q. The broken hard disk is similar to this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ and its cable is like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2473802378/ Well this cable has 44pins and it cabled in different way from modern IDE cables. THe 44pins cable is described here: http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/misc/IBM_IDE.html Well the question is: if she can't find a working used hard disk for this machine, how could she solve for connect a new hard disk (i suggested to use a ide to cf adapter with a 32mb max cf card, but the ide connector has 40 pins so it should necessary to realize a specified cabling from the ps/2 hard disk connector to the ide to cf card connector) Thanks in advance Enrico From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 6 20:53:10 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 20:53:10 -0600 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54FA6816.1090102@pico-systems.com> On 03/06/2015 11:30 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 10:28:57AM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 03/05/2015 05:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not >>> mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA >>> (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, >>> cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. >>> >>> >> Unibus or Q-bus? I have some Q-bus backplanes that came from the >> WELL. >> Picked them up at some surplus place in the bay area, I think >> probably Mike >> Quinn's. >> >> The backplanes don't have a manufacturer's label. They may have >> been custom >> made by the WELL, I don't know. I also don't know if they are Q-18 >> or Q-22. >> They have a card cage, cooling fan and Todd power supply. I have >> two of them. >> >> Jon > What size? > > 9 slots x 4 connectors wide. Standard Q-bus. Jon From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat Mar 7 04:26:11 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 11:26:11 +0100 Subject: R: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <00fa01d05859$413c0310$c3b40930$@computer.org> Message-ID: <201503071026.t27AQHgW023462-t27AQHgX023462@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Hi, thanks for your answers. Tom, the drive of mine friend who live in Los Angeles, has an ISA-like 44 pins connector so I thought that while it is possible to find an used working old drive, you maybe have to pay more for it, you could have doubt if it works really, or it could hard to find it cause its strange old connector. https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ I will suggest her to look well around where she lives. Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Tom Gardner Inviato: venerd? 6 marzo 2015 23:02 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: RE: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 Enrico: If it isn't broke don't fix it. U likely have a perfectly good controller for any ST412 type MFM HDD controller. Why would you even consider and IDE or SCSI drive when there are many good refurbished MFM drives available at capacities well above the 20 MB you are replacing. Personally I would look for a Maxtor or a Quantum drive staying away from the stepper motor types, like the one u are replacing. Just Google, "MFM HDD drive for sale" Select anyone that claims an ST412 interface from a reputable vendor, I bet u can even find one in Italy :-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Lazzerini [mailto:enrico.lazzerini at email.it] Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 5:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 Hi at all, a friend of mine, has an old working IBM PS/2 model 30. She needs to change its broken hard disk that is a IBM 20mb Part number 72x7568, model WDI-325Q. The broken hard disk is similar to this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ and its cable is like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2473802378/ Well this cable has 44pins and it cabled in different way from modern IDE cables. THe 44pins cable is described here: http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/misc/IBM_IDE.html Well the question is: if she can't find a working used hard disk for this machine, how could she solve for connect a new hard disk (i suggested to use a ide to cf adapter with a 32mb max cf card, but the ide connector has 40 pins so it should necessary to realize a specified cabling from the ps/2 hard disk connector to the ide to cf card connector) Thanks in advance Enrico From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sat Mar 7 04:26:11 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 11:26:11 +0100 Subject: R: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <00fa01d05859$413c0310$c3b40930$@computer.org> Message-ID: <201503071026.t27AQHgW023462-t27AQHgX023462@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Hi, thanks for your answers. Tom, the drive of mine friend who live in Los Angeles, has an ISA-like 44 pins connector so I thought that while it is possible to find an used working old drive, you maybe have to pay more for it, you could have doubt if it works really, or it could hard to find it cause its strange old connector. https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ I will suggest her to look well around where she lives. Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Tom Gardner Inviato: venerd? 6 marzo 2015 23:02 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: RE: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 Enrico: If it isn't broke don't fix it. U likely have a perfectly good controller for any ST412 type MFM HDD controller. Why would you even consider and IDE or SCSI drive when there are many good refurbished MFM drives available at capacities well above the 20 MB you are replacing. Personally I would look for a Maxtor or a Quantum drive staying away from the stepper motor types, like the one u are replacing. Just Google, "MFM HDD drive for sale" Select anyone that claims an ST412 interface from a reputable vendor, I bet u can even find one in Italy :-) Tom -----Original Message----- From: Enrico Lazzerini [mailto:enrico.lazzerini at email.it] Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2015 5:57 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 Hi at all, a friend of mine, has an old working IBM PS/2 model 30. She needs to change its broken hard disk that is a IBM 20mb Part number 72x7568, model WDI-325Q. The broken hard disk is similar to this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2472982139/ and its cable is like this one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/chefelf/2473802378/ Well this cable has 44pins and it cabled in different way from modern IDE cables. THe 44pins cable is described here: http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/misc/IBM_IDE.html Well the question is: if she can't find a working used hard disk for this machine, how could she solve for connect a new hard disk (i suggested to use a ide to cf adapter with a 32mb max cf card, but the ide connector has 40 pins so it should necessary to realize a specified cabling from the ps/2 hard disk connector to the ide to cf card connector) Thanks in advance Enrico From jonas at otter.se Sat Mar 7 07:18:22 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:18:22 +0100 Subject: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54FAFA9E.5090205@otter.se> On 2015-03-06 15:40, Mouse wrote: >>>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>>> Mathematica. >>> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] >> I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab >> which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really >> optimized around vectors and arrays. > That might be more similar to APL, then. > > This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I > think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is > that they're single-implementation. Most of the things normally > thought of as programming languages are more or less independent of > their implementations, with multiple independent implementations. > Things like Mathematica, while they certainly can be seen as languages, > have only one implementation, often have an imprecise (or no!) spec > beyond "what the implementation does", and sometimes even come from > vendors who think they own the language somehow, throwing around > lawyers if anyone else tries to create an independent implementation. > (I don't know which, if either, of those applies to Mathematica > specifically, but I _have_ seen examples of each.) This makes them > less useful; for example, even if I were willing to run someone else's > binary, I doubt Mathematica exists for NetBSD/sparc 1.4T. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > There is also SageMath, which is open source, written in Python. It is available as source code or as downloads for Linux. There is also a VirtualBox appliance for Windows (you need to install VirtualBox). http://www.sagemath.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 7 12:47:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 10:47:05 -0800 Subject: Working HD for a IBM PS/2 model 30 In-Reply-To: <00fa01d05859$413c0310$c3b40930$@computer.org> References: <201503052057.t25Kv8Mt019509-t25Kv8Mu019509@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> <00fa01d05859$413c0310$c3b40930$@computer.org> Message-ID: <54FB47A9.6030902@sydex.com> On 03/06/2015 02:02 PM, Tom Gardner wrote: > Enrico: > > If it isn't broke don't fix it. U likely have a perfectly good controller > for any ST412 type MFM HDD controller. Why would you even consider and IDE > or SCSI drive when there are many good refurbished MFM drives available at > capacities well above the 20 MB you are replacing. Personally I would > look for a Maxtor or a Quantum drive staying away from the stepper motor > types, like the one u are replacing. > > Just Google, "MFM HDD drive for sale" Select anyone that claims an ST412 > interface from a reputable vendor, I bet u can even find one in Italy :-) If memory serves, Tom, the hard drive in a model 20 and 30 is indeed an ST412 interface, but it's a 3.5" model. While not impossible to find, they are quite a bit less common than the 5.25" variety--and probably close to unobtanium in Italy. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 7 13:05:09 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 20:05:09 +0100 Subject: General Electric TermiNet 340 printer doc? Message-ID: I picked up a really heavy line printer last week. It is a General Electric TermiNet 340. My searches for doc were not very successful. It seems to be a line printer that prints 340 lines of 132 characters per minute! At the rear side near to the floor is a large rectangular connector. Lucky me, the previous owner had a connection cable. It is a ribbon cable. At one side is the mating rectangular plug, at the other side is an IDC header. Is it possible that this printer is also sold by others using a different name? So far I have not been able to find any documentation. I'd love to get this beast operational! Thanks for pointers, - Henk From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 7 13:13:51 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 14:13:51 -0500 Subject: VCF East shirt preview Message-ID: <54FB4DEF.9050601@snarc.net> This year we decided to pay homage to the PDP-8 and Spock. :) http://snarc.net/vcfexshirtpreview.gif From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 14:13:22 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:13:22 +0100 Subject: 2 big anniversaries are looming Message-ID: Both for the Atari ST... http://mrchimps.lyfordrome.com/AtariStuff/Atari.html http://www.stuff.tv/features/hall-fame-atari-st-computer-kickstarted-home-recording-boom ... and its greatest rival: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=39821&forum=25 http://fo.hn/amiga30/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sat Mar 7 13:35:29 2015 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 20:35:29 +0100 Subject: Teleray Micricon 82306-3 on ebay Message-ID: Glen Slick wrote: > What is an HP 82306C GPIO Interface? Is that the same as thing as an 82306A? > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=1111 > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281557879632 Probably close but not identical. The datasheet (catalog page actually, http://www.premerec.com/pdf/hp11835a.pdf, English version on second page) for the 11835A Data Buffer I have explicitely calls for the C suffix card - but maybe just because it was the current variety at that time. I got the device from a surplus outfit figuring it might come in handy one day, say for demonstrating or debugging bit-serial circuitry, as it can spew out bits at an arbitrary rate between zero and about 4 MHz. It has two banks of 1024 Mbits data memory each that are alternately loaded from the computer and read for driving the serial output, plus some additional memory for configuring an internal state machine and driving auxiliary signals, originally intended for a frequency hopping synthesizer. Intended application for the device was mobile phone and related equipment development; my example came out of a Nokia R&D facility of in Oulu, Finland according to its inventory tag. Sean Caron wrote: > Interesting... appears to be some kind of temperature controller... I found > a NASA technical report that mentions it and discusses some of the specs; > apparently it's based on the Signetics 2650A at 1.25 MHz and according to > the spec sheet, it's designed to use standard 4-20 mA interface to > instruments, etc. > > Maybe worth it if someone's looking to hunt down some 2650A CPUs and maybe > some support chips for a vintage SBC project. > > http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19870004136.pdf Thanks for the hints. File however doesn't load for me (from Germany). Might not even take ripping the device apart and rebuilding it into an SBC - I find the case, display and keyboard quite nice and would be looking to preserve as much as possible of that. The provided keyboard and display (that look as if they're seven-segment, but might even be alpha-numeric "star" type) could be be quite sufficient for many an application - mostly depending on how much RAM and ROM and which sorts of I/O there are in, can be crammed into or hung off that box - to realize a hex monitor or whatever floats your boat. So Long, Arno From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 7 15:37:10 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 16:37:10 -0500 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54FA6816.1090102@pico-systems.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FA6816.1090102@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54FB6F86.3090005@compsys.to> >Jon Elson wrote: > >On 03/06/2015 11:30 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> >On Fri, Mar 06, 2015 at 10:28:57AM -0600, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> >On 03/05/2015 05:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if >>>> I'm not >>>> mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. >>>> The -BA >>>> (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very >>>> nice, >>>> cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. >>> >>> Unibus or Q-bus? I have some Q-bus backplanes that came from the >>> WELL. >>> Picked them up at some surplus place in the bay area, I think >>> probably Mike >>> Quinn's. >>> >>> The backplanes don't have a manufacturer's label. They may have >>> been custom >>> made by the WELL, I don't know. I also don't know if they are Q-18 >>> or Q-22. >>> They have a card cage, cooling fan and Todd power supply. I have >>> two of them. >>> >>> Jon >> >> What size? > > 9 slots x 4 connectors wide. Standard Q-bus. If I remember correctly, a 9 slot x 4 connectors wide are ABCD and available with support for either 18-bit or 22-bit addresses. The last slot usually expects a terminator board. I can't remember the actual part numbers. There are also more recent backplanes in a BA23 box which are 8 slots by 4 connectors wide. The BA23 box also contains bays for 2 * 5 1/4" drives, one of which is usually an MSCP drive for which there is a distribution panel at the rear of the drive bay that is connected to an RQDX1, RQDX2 or an RQDX3 via a 50 pin cable. The first 3 slots and ABCD and the remaining 5 slots are ABAB. There were many, many BA23 boxes sold and they may be easier to find. Jerome Fine From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Mar 7 15:54:27 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:54:27 +0000 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015, Windermere UK, April 11/12th is just around the corner! Message-ID: Sincere Greetings This is a quick email to remind you that DEC Legacy 2015 is just around the corner! I've recently updated the web page with some exciting presentations and demonstrations including the following topics: *VAX MP - Simulating a SMP VAX* *Mark Wickens, DEC Legacy Organiser* *Unearthing an important historical computer at the computer sheds museum* *Jim Austin, The Jim Austin Computer Collection* *Video Presentation* *Bernd 'vaxman' Ulmann* *An Update from the Living Computer Museum* *Rich Alderson, Senior System Engineer* *The MCPRINT Utility, 30 years in the making* *Malcolm Blunden, retired VMS Systems Manager* *The Future of VMS * *Sue Skonetski, VP of Customer Engagement, VMS Software* *Getting the DEC experience on modern hardware* *Peter Allan, ex VAX system manager and VMS programmer* *HECnet - A worldwide DECnet network* *Mark Wickens, DEC Legacy Organiser* ... and there will be more yet to come. We also now have quite an impressive list of exhibits which I expect to continue to grow throughout the next month. Whatever your favourite era of DEC kit you are sure to find something of interest. The registration page allows registration for a single day or the whole weekend. Please come, join in and experience the best computing equipment from the best manufacturer! Kind regards, Mark Wickens *Event Organiser* p.s. please forward this email to anyone else you think might be interested in attending! From evan at snarc.net Sat Mar 7 17:32:10 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 18:32:10 -0500 Subject: DEC Legacy 2015, Windermere UK, April 11/12th is just around the corner! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54FB8A7A.8070307@snarc.net> > Sincere Greetings > > This is a quick email to remind you that DEC Legacy 2015 > is just around the corner! > > I've recently updated the web page with some exciting presentations and > demonstrations This is great! Between this event and the PDP-8 Pavilion @ VCF East, there will all kinds of DEC exhibits next month. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Mar 7 20:09:04 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 02:09:04 +0000 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54FB6F86.3090005@compsys.to> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FA6816.1090102@pico-systems.com> <54FB6F86.3090005@compsys.to> Message-ID: <54FBAF40.6040102@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2015 21:37, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>>> On 03/05/2015 05:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: >>>>> I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if >>>>> I'm not >>>>> mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. > If I remember correctly, a 9 slot x 4 connectors wide are ABCD and > available with support for either 18-bit or 22-bit addresses. The > last slot usually expects a terminator board. I can't remember the > actual part numbers. Not necessarily. H9273 (18-bit) and H9276 (22-bit) are indeed straight backplanes, but H9275 is serpentine. > There are also more recent backplanes in a BA23 box which are > 8 slots by 4 connectors wide. True, but Sander was looking for something small, and those boxes aren't very small with the PSU and drive bays! He'd be better looking for a BA11-M or its backplane, an H9270. That's a a 4x4 serpentine with card guides, that can fitted right onto the side of an H780 PSU. Or a BA11-V which is a small-form tabletop box with a 2x4 serpentine backplane similar to an H9281-BA. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 20:53:34 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:53:34 -0500 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54FBAF40.6040102@dunnington.plus.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FA6816.1090102@pico-systems.com> <54FB6F86.3090005@compsys.to> <54FBAF40.6040102@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 7 March 2015 at 21:09, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Not necessarily. H9273 (18-bit) and H9276 (22-bit) are indeed straight > backplanes, but H9275 is serpentine. > I can confirm that the H9273 is Q18/CD (and thus straight), and that the H9275 is Q22/Q22 serpentine. I actually have a "naked" H9275, that I intend on building a nice 11/73 system out of when I get some time... and more importantly money. Something I've been wondering about actually. Since I don't have a proper mounting box for the H9275 (looking for a BA11-NF box; specifically one with a PDP-11/03-L bezel), I'd been wondering about doing a silly project of mounting it inside a nice custom box and bolting a 35KSR Teletype (another difficult as hell thing to find. Would it be possible to "rehome" the guts of a VT-220 into something else?) to the top in a sort of strange "Steampunk-11/73" setup. Anyone here have any words of wisdom with regards to this harebrained idea? ...You know at a certain point you realize how much of a nerd/geek you truly are when you're discussing casemodding a PDP-11. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:31:37 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:31:37 -0600 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have numerous boxes and just remembered 4 or 5 q-bus systems which were built by one of the departments at the University of Illinois. I don't remember which backplane is in them, but I also have a few other new 3ed party ones here somewhere . On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently searching around for a small cardcage+backplane, if I'm not > mistaken DEC part numbers H9281-BA or H9281-BB for a bigger one. The -BA > (4x dual heights) has my preference as I'm looking to build a very nice, > cute and not that power hungry PDP-11. > > Does anyone have one available? > > With kind regards, > > Sander Reiche > the Netherlands > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 7 23:03:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 23:03:38 -0600 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54FBD82A.5090104@pico-systems.com> On 03/06/2015 11:30 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: I've put a couple pictures of the backplanes on my web site: http://pico-systems.com/images/qbusbp.jpg http://pico-systems.com/images/qbusps.jpg I have two of these units. I just noticed that they have Compuserve property tags attached to the power supplies. Jon From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Mar 7 23:05:15 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 00:05:15 -0500 Subject: Math software - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <54FBD88B.4000308@telegraphics.com.au> On 06/03/15 9:40 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>>> Mathematica. >>> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] >> I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab >> which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really >> optimized around vectors and arrays. > > That might be more similar to APL, then. > > This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I > think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is > that they're single-implementation. ... It certainly existed on SPARC, though... Mathematica was very widely ported because of the era it was born in - it supported just about every serious platform of the 1980s - I remember seeing price lists with maybe 50 different ports, everything from SPARC to Mac to Cray (at the time I used it on Mac 68K and I have a license for NeXT). Wolfram's pathologically proprietorial mentality doesn't support the spirit of openness that progress and science require; a tragedy when so many have sleepwalked into relying on his black-box tools ... --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From earl at retrobits.com Sat Mar 7 21:38:58 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 19:38:58 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply Message-ID: Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. I've read the instructions at: http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz line time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd you work around the LTC issue? Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs galore. I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. Thanks! - Earl From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:42:07 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2015 21:42:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why not just replace the H786? On Sat, Mar 7, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, > > I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The > power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. > > I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. > I've read the instructions at: > > http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx > > However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz line > time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has > anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd > you work around the LTC issue? > > Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs galore. > I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. > > Thanks! > > - Earl > From lenox.joseph at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 22:17:45 2015 From: lenox.joseph at gmail.com (Joseph Lenox) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 22:17:45 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> Well, you could make some clock-generation hw and run it off the 5V standby on ATX. Seems straightforward-enough. On 03/07/2015 09:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, > > I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The > power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. > > I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. > I've read the instructions at: > > http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx > > However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz line > time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has > anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd > you work around the LTC issue? > > Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs galore. > I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. > > Thanks! > > - Earl -- --Joseph Lenox, BS, MS I'm an engineer. I solve problems. From wilson at dbit.com Sun Mar 8 01:43:01 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 03:43:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150308074301.GA7942@dbit.dbit.com> On Sat, Mar 07, 2015 at 07:38:58PM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: >However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz line >time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has >anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd >you work around the LTC issue? I haven't done it with an ATX PS, but years ago I set up a 4-slot dual-height box (is that BA-11VA?) that didn't drive BEVENT L, to run RSX11M+ which of course requires the clock, so I dangled a little piece of perfboard in the backplane (wire-wrapped to BEVENT L and the power pins) with a PIC CPU that generated the clock. Code here: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pic/kw11l.asm ... and there's an ASCII drawing of the ultra-simple circuit in a comment block there. If I were doing it now I'd use an 8-pin PIC. John Wilson D Bit From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 07:38:51 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 09:38:51 -0300 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> References: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: 60 hz? Little wall wart transformer with 1 diode feeding a 7805. Done. enviado do meu telemovel Em 08/03/2015 06:57, "Joseph Lenox" escreveu: > Well, you could make some clock-generation hw and run it off the 5V > standby on ATX. Seems straightforward-enough. > > On 03/07/2015 09:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > >> Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, >> >> I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The >> power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. >> >> I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. >> I've read the instructions at: >> >> http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx >> >> However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz >> line >> time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has >> anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd >> you work around the LTC issue? >> >> Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs >> galore. >> I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Earl >> > > > -- > --Joseph Lenox, BS, MS > I'm an engineer. I solve problems. > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 07:38:51 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 09:38:51 -0300 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> References: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: 60 hz? Little wall wart transformer with 1 diode feeding a 7805. Done. enviado do meu telemovel Em 08/03/2015 06:57, "Joseph Lenox" escreveu: > Well, you could make some clock-generation hw and run it off the 5V > standby on ATX. Seems straightforward-enough. > > On 03/07/2015 09:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > >> Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, >> >> I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The >> power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. >> >> I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. >> I've read the instructions at: >> >> http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx >> >> However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz >> line >> time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has >> anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd >> you work around the LTC issue? >> >> Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs >> galore. >> I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. >> >> Thanks! >> >> - Earl >> > > > -- > --Joseph Lenox, BS, MS > I'm an engineer. I solve problems. > > From kirkbdavis at hush.com Sun Mar 8 08:19:33 2015 From: kirkbdavis at hush.com (kirkbdavis at hush.com) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 06:19:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: <54FBCD69.6030908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150308131933.9A374400B1@smtp.hushmail.com> This page discusses making a small pdp-11 system which may be useful: http://www.pdp-11.nl/ba11-boxes/ba11va/ba11va-info.html Kirk On March 8, 2015 at 5:30 AM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > >60 hz? Little wall wart transformer with 1 diode feeding a 7805. >Done. > >enviado do meu telemovel >Em 08/03/2015 06:57, "Joseph Lenox" >escreveu: > >> Well, you could make some clock-generation hw and run it off the >5V >> standby on ATX. Seems straightforward-enough. >> >> On 03/07/2015 09:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: >> >>> Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, >>> >>> I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height >backplane. The >>> power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something >useful. >>> >>> I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently- >powered ATX PSU. >>> I've read the instructions at: >>> >>> http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx >>> >>> However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply >a 60 Hz >>> line >>> time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my >question - has >>> anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if >so, how'd >>> you work around the LTC issue? >>> >>> Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and >SLUs >>> galore. >>> I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> - Earl >>> >> >> >> -- >> --Joseph Lenox, BS, MS >> I'm an engineer. I solve problems. >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 8 09:00:01 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 10:00:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply Message-ID: <20150308140001.EEB2718C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Earl Evans > I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. > The power supply is toast. Toast, how? Physically mangled, or just not working? If the latter, it might be possible to fix it. (Even if you're not up to that, don't pitch it - someone else might be interested in it as a repair item.) The other thing you could do is install a BA11-S power supply (H7861); some are available on eBay. They are compatible (physically/electrical interface), the H7861 just has a few more amps of +5V. Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 8 11:43:29 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 09:43:29 -0700 Subject: Math software - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54FBD88B.4000308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54FBD88B.4000308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <54FC7C31.6010800@shiresoft.com> On 3/7/15 9:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 06/03/15 9:40 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>>>> Mathematica. >>>> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] >>> I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab >>> which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really >>> optimized around vectors and arrays. >> >> That might be more similar to APL, then. >> >> This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I >> think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is >> that they're single-implementation. ... > > It certainly existed on SPARC, though... Mathematica was very widely > ported because of the era it was born in - it supported just about > every serious platform of the 1980s - I remember seeing price lists > with maybe 50 different ports, everything from SPARC to Mac to Cray > (at the time I used it on Mac 68K and I have a license for NeXT). > > Wolfram's pathologically proprietorial mentality doesn't support the > spirit of openness that progress and science require; a tragedy when > so many have sleepwalked into relying on his black-box tools ... > While it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles of Mathmatica, something in the same vein is Maxima (a port of the DOE version of Macsyma). Both are symbolic processing. I use Maxima in situations where I don't have a Mathmatica license readily available. There are several books on Macsyma also available. Maxima is open source and is easily portable. The distribution does have a lisp included (can't remember if it's binary or source) but that lisp is also readily available as I recall but I would think that any common lisp implementation would work. It also integrates (sorry for the pun) with gnuplot for some pretty spectacular graphing. There's also a graphical front end (so you can use the various TeX fonts to integrals and other math input/output looks good on the screen). TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 8 13:21:16 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 13:21:16 -0500 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> On 03/06/2015 11:30 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > What size? > > OK, I checked this unit, and it powers up fine. I also have an MDB card cage with backplane, 8 slot, marked MLSI chassis backplane #40328. I also have a DEC backplane only, no card cage, Backplane Assy 5412233 I'm assuming from the 4 x 9 slots it must be Q-bus, but I don't know any more than that. Jon From simski at dds.nl Sun Mar 8 15:38:45 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 21:38:45 +0100 Subject: GNT-4601 punch cable help In-Reply-To: References: <54CF9220.9000405@dds.nl> <54D47DB9.1000903@dds.nl> Message-ID: <54FCB355.2030904@dds.nl> Hey Mike. I took apart the cable we use and this is the setup: db25 de9 ---------------------- 1 ------ shield 2 ------ 2 3 ------ 3 7 ------ 5 4,5 1,4,6 6,8,20 simon On 23-02-15 04:06, Mike Loewen wrote: > Well, I finally got back to the GNT 4601, and I'm still unable to > get it to work correctly. I'm using the following (null) cable, > connected to the DCE connector (the one on the corner): > > DE9 DB25 > -------------------- > 1 20 > 2 2 > 3 3 > 4 6,8 > 5 7 > 6 20 > 7 5 > 8 4 > > On the GNT 4601, FDX, DC Codes Off. > > On the Linux side: > > stty -F /dev/ttyS0 -a > > speed 1200 baud; rows 0; columns 0; line = 0; > intr = ^C; quit = ^\; erase = ^?; kill = ^U; eof = ^D; eol = ; > eol2 = ; swtch = ; start = ^Q; > stop = ^S; susp = ^Z; rprnt = ^R; werase = ^W; lnext = ^V; flush = ^O; > min = 1; time = 0; > -parenb -parodd cs8 -hupcl -cstopb cread clocal crtscts > -ignbrk brkint -ignpar -parmrk -inpck -istrip -inlcr -igncr icrnl -ixon > -ixoff -iuclc -ixany imaxbel -iutf8 > opost -olcuc -ocrnl onlcr -onocr -onlret -ofill -ofdel nl0 cr0 tab0 bs0 > vt0 ff0 > isig icanon iexten echo echoe echok -echonl -noflsh -xcase -tostop > -echoprt echoctl echoke > > With these settings, nothing happens when I send chars to the punch > (cat > /dev/ttyS0). If I turn RTS/CTS off (-crtscts), the punch runs > and chars are punched, although I'm certain not all of them. > > If I try and read a tape from the punch (cat /dev/ttyS0, press the > Read button on the punch), I get nothing on the Linux side. The tape > reads a short burst every time I press Read, but nothing ever shows up > on the terminal. > > I'm beginning to the the 4601 has a problem, at least with the > reader. I've tried to duplicate a tape in Local mode, and nothing seems > to be read and nothing gets punched. > > Feeling very frustrated. > > On Fri, 6 Feb 2015, Simon Claessen wrote: > >> well I located the machine and it turns out that the connector closest >> to the corner is used. we made a nullmodem cable going to a db9 >> connector and we grab the papertapes on a 600/1200 baud setting as >> handshaking is somewhat broken on the pc side and we want to be shure >> to get al the bits. :-) >> >> Our capture of pdp-8 tapes is here: >> https://github.com/Hack42/Museum/tree/master/Papertape >> >> On 02-02-15 16:05, Simon Claessen wrote: >>> we have a 4601 and i've made a nullmodem cable, but at the moment, I >>> cant to remember on which connector it went. i think is was the >>> connector going to the terminal, not the computer one. via the dip >>> switches on the bottom you can preset three speed settings, >>> available at >>> a switch on the top. I will take a look wednesday when i'm back at the >>> museum. >>> >>> simon >>> >>> On 02-02-15 05:43, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> > I have a box of old HP paper tapes to read, and am having an >>> awful >>> > time trying to build the right serial cable to connect a GNT-4601 >>> > reader/punch to a Linux PC. Does anyone have a known good cable >>> diagram >>> > and stty settings that will work? Thank. >>> > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >>> > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >>> > >> >> -- >> Met vriendelijke Groet, >> >> Simon Claessen >> drukknop.nl >> >> > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Mar 8 17:44:01 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 15:44:01 -0700 Subject: Math software - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL In-Reply-To: <54FC7C31.6010800@shiresoft.com> References: <54E58EE6.6030107@sydex.com> <20150219142414.GA4416@mooli.org.uk> <54E62754.3050608@sydex.com> <20150227142905.GB31338@mooli.org.uk> <54F0B6FC.3010004@sydex.com> <969493A3-978D-49CB-944B-1AEE70897703@shiresoft.com> <5B0809E0-059B-49CF-A08C-0B4C7A6A83EF@gmail.com> <54F11047.5010108@sydex.com> <20150228113506.GA28314@mooli.org.uk> <4276BC78-9CE0-4B93-90C1-04E702F5B3E9@bitscience.ca> <20150228194656.GA4953@mooli.org.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DB03FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201503032200.RAA26543@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <35E50127-E9BB-461A-8729-96F858A18CAD@swri.edu> <201503041715.MAA13379@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <71EFC134-A941-43F0-B52B-A4B00275BD30@shiresoft.com> <201503061440.JAA18381@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <54FBD88B.4000308@telegraphics.com.au> <54FC7C31.6010800@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <54FCD0B1.2010001@shiresoft.com> On 3/8/15 9:43 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 3/7/15 9:05 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 06/03/15 9:40 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>>>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>>>>> Mathematica. >>>>> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] >>>> I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab >>>> which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really >>>> optimized around vectors and arrays. >>> >>> That might be more similar to APL, then. >>> >>> This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I >>> think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is >>> that they're single-implementation. ... >> >> It certainly existed on SPARC, though... Mathematica was very widely >> ported because of the era it was born in - it supported just about >> every serious platform of the 1980s - I remember seeing price lists >> with maybe 50 different ports, everything from SPARC to Mac to Cray >> (at the time I used it on Mac 68K and I have a license for NeXT). >> >> Wolfram's pathologically proprietorial mentality doesn't support the >> spirit of openness that progress and science require; a tragedy when >> so many have sleepwalked into relying on his black-box tools ... >> > While it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles of Mathmatica, > something in the same vein is Maxima (a port of the DOE version of > Macsyma). Both are symbolic processing. I use Maxima in situations > where I don't have a Mathmatica license readily available. There are > several books on Macsyma also available. > > Maxima is open source and is easily portable. The distribution does > have a lisp included (can't remember if it's binary or source) but > that lisp is also readily available as I recall but I would think that > any common lisp implementation would work. It also integrates (sorry > for the pun) with gnuplot for some pretty spectacular graphing. > There's also a graphical front end (so you can use the various TeX > fonts to integrals and other math input/output looks good on the screen). One of the things that I really appreciate with both Mathmatica and MatLab is the fact that they can handle enormous data sets that other tools choke on. At a previous employer, I justified the expense of Mathmatica because I had to do some analysis on some trace files that had on the order of 100,000,000 records. I had previous experience with smaller files and using Excel spreadsheets that indicated spreadsheets were just not up to the task. Once I had coded up what I needed in Mathmatica's language, I could do the processing/analysis of the trace files in about an hour. Even with much smaller data sets, spreadsheets (Excel specifically) took significantly longer. The way I had coded in Mathmatica was probably not the most efficient. Just like proper APL, there were no loops in the code. The entire trace file was read into a list and then applications of "map" were done on the entire list (sometimes doing a selection from the list). One of the powerful features is applying a test against the list and getting a bit vector out (one bit per list element) for the entire list (a really long bit vector). You could then use the bit vector directly (I had used it for some frequency analysis) or to extract a sublist for different processing. TTFN - Guy From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Mar 9 01:09:47 2015 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 07:09:47 +0100 Subject: Math software - was Re: Rich kids are into COBOL Message-ID: On 06/03/15 9:40 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> one other, which you may or may not classify as a ?language?, is >>>> Mathematica. >>> I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion [...] >> I've been using Mathematica for years. [...] I've also used MatLab >> which also falls somewhat into that category. MatLab is is really >> optimized around vectors and arrays. > > That might be more similar to APL, then. > > This has been rattling around in my mind for a little while now and I > think one reason I didn't think of things like Mathematica or Matlab is > that they're single-implementation. ... > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > As I haven't yet seen it mentioned in this discussion, I think I need to toss in Scilab (http://www.scilab.org/ , also on WP), which is a Matlab workalike that came out of a French mathematical research iInstitute (INRIA, Institute Institut national de recherche en informatique et en automatique). It is under a GPL compatible license (CeCILL) and should therefore also work for those of us for whom free beer isn't free enough :) I used it^w a tiny portion of it during my student thesis for predicting and comparing the EMI spectra of phase and burst fired power controllers under different load conditions and power settings. So Long, Arno From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 8 10:53:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:53:19 +0000 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > Please send some photos of that Sigma's miracle! I have posted a few pictures of the unit and the PCB in it on my flickr account. You can find them here : https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/sets/72157651171931246/ -tony From js at cimmeri.com Sun Mar 8 11:03:36 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 11:03:36 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54FC72D8.9030305@cimmeri.com> On 3/7/2015 10:38 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hello fellow DEC enthusiasts, > > I have a BA11-N mounting box with Q18 9-slot quad-height backplane. The > power supply is toast. My goal is to hack it into something useful. > > I'd like to replace the power supply with a sufficiently-powered ATX PSU. > I've read the instructions at: > > http://www.diane-neisius.de/pdp11/index_E.html#atx > > However, unlike the DEC PSU, the ATX power supply won't supply a 60 Hz line > time clock (LTC) signal to the backplane via BEVENT. So, my question - has > anyone used a standard ATX PSU for a PDP-11 QBUS system, and if so, how'd > you work around the LTC issue? > > Once I solve the power issue, I have 11/23 CPU cards, RAM, and SLUs galore. > I'm not planning to make this very power hungry though. > > Thanks! > > - Earl Earl, I did an ATX conversion on my BA123 to dual 500W ATX PSUs. I used Brad Parker's QBus POR device for generating the LTC, but am not sure on current availability as past emails to him have gone unanswered. http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Pcbs.Qbus-por A trick is that his LTC output is open collector, thus needs a pullup unless your backplane provides. - J. From billdeg at buzz1.com Sun Mar 8 11:05:55 2015 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 12:05:55 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 AC LO and M7235 (Status K5 Module) Message-ID: <9c27a5cb76734fd9a82c0217c28fbe6e@buzz1.com> Working on PDP 11/40, issues with DC LO and AC LO The front panel confirms a DC LO issue, CONS and RUN lights are off, BUS and PROC lights are on. The panel is unresponsive. With the cable removed from the h742a connector, P9 says DC LO and AC LO are 3.53v, which is lower than the expected +4.8v. This tells me there is a fault in the h742a. I hate to remove the 742a power control board but I finally have the machine in my basement so I can work on it for an extended period. Voltages of the other regulators are OK. I think it's conclusive that the h742a has a fault to be repaired. Next, I re-connected the cable to P9. The DC LO and AC LO wires lead to J18, which feeds DC LO and AC LO to the backplane on my system. Reading from J18 the DC LO value remains at 3.53v, but the AC LO drops further to 1.72v. I get similar readings from the backplane pins themselves. When I remove the Status Module card (M7235) from the backplane the AC LO on J18 jumps up to 3.53v - i.e. AC LO jumps back to origination levels. Question - Is there is *also* a potential fault in the M7235 circuit related to AC LO, -OR- is it normal for the M7235 to detect and pull down AC LO further forcing the system to halt? I am working to understand the circuits from page 120 of the KD11-A Maint manual http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1140/KD11-A_Maint.pdf My plan is to repair the h742a first and see how it goes, but I'd like a 2nd opinion if anyone has one, regarding the M7235....thanks! photos http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=178&tid=8 Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 8 11:15:45 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 16:15:45 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/40 AC LO and M7235 (Status K5 Module) In-Reply-To: <9c27a5cb76734fd9a82c0217c28fbe6e@buzz1.com> References: <9c27a5cb76734fd9a82c0217c28fbe6e@buzz1.com> Message-ID: > With the cable removed from the h742a connector, P9 says DC LO and AC LO > are 3.53v, which is lower than the expected +4.8v. This tells me there is Have you confirmed these are steady DC voltages Or could the signals be oscillating with that as the average value? There is a capacitor in the H742 that if it fails (and it does...) the ACLO and DCLO will oscillate at mains frequncy (or probably twice it). Certainly on the 11/45, this really confuses the CPU microcode. It's the obvious smoothing capacitor for the supply to the ACLO and DCLO circuit. -tony From billdeg at buzz1.com Sun Mar 8 16:55:43 2015 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:55:43 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 AC LO and M7235 (Status K5 Module) In-Reply-To: References: <9c27a5cb76734fd9a82c0217c28fbe6e@buzz1.com> Message-ID: <8f363ff04f9b42559e72950021a3d64d@buzz1.com> > > > With the cable removed from the h742a connector, P9 says DC LO and AC LO > are 3.53v, which is lower than the expected +4.8v. This tells me there is Have you confirmed these are steady DC voltages Or could the signals be oscillating with that as the average value? There is a capacitor in the H742 that if it fails (and it does...) the ACLO and DCLO will oscillate at mains frequncy (or probably twice it). Certainly on the 11/45, this really confuses the CPU microcode. It's the obvious smoothing capacitor for the supply to the ACLO and DCLO circuit. -tony Yes, steady voltage, but I agree with your point. My question though is, will the M7235 "go lower" if it detects inbound AC LO is too low and lower it some more, or is the additional lowering of voltage a symptom of a fault in the M7235 as well as the h742a. hope that makes sense...I ask because it's exactly 1/2 the voltage when installed. DC LO on the other hand is not changed with or without M7235 installed. AC LO = 1.76v - with M7235 installed (3.52 / 2 = 1/76) AC LO = 3.52v - with M7235 disconnected b From earl at retrobits.com Sun Mar 8 15:09:58 2015 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 13:09:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: <20150308140001.EEB2718C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150308140001.EEB2718C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 7:00 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Toast, how? Physically mangled, or just not working? If the latter, it > might be possible to fix it. (Even if you're not up to that, don't pitch > it - someone else might be interested in it as a repair item.) > > It's not working, and I don't think I'm up to fixing it. I may not have the analog electronics troubleshooting skills or equipment to pull off such a feat. Also, I tend to shy away from voltages in the "kill you" range :-) But rest assured, I wouldn't throw away or recycle anything without checking for interest. Case in point, I have a couple of QBUS cards where a component has been snapped off. I've kept those boards for parts/repair. - Earl From jws at jwsss.com Sun Mar 8 20:21:31 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2015 18:21:31 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: <20150308074301.GA7942@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150308074301.GA7942@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <54FCF59B.80401@jwsss.com> On 3/7/2015 11:43 PM, John Wilson wrote: > I haven't done it with an ATX PS, but years ago I set up a 4-slot > dual-height box (is that BA-11VA?) that didn't drive BEVENT L, to run > RSX11M+ which of course requires the clock, so I dangled a little piece of > perfboard in the backplane (wire-wrapped to BEVENT L and the power pins) > with a PIC CPU that generated the clock. Code here: > > ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pic/kw11l.asm > > ... and there's an ASCII drawing of the ultra-simple circuit in a comment > block there. If I were doing it now I'd use an 8-pin PIC. > > John Wilson > D Bit Can you dig up this include file in the source? include I didn't find it in your /pub/pdp11 or at least not a candidate. I saw the binary is there too, but it would be nice to have all the info to compile it in one place in case I need it. thanks Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 9 10:06:54 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 11:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP 11/40 AC LO and M7235 (Status K5 Module) Message-ID: <20150309150654.86DA918C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: B Degnan > Yes, steady voltage I think Tony meant 'did you look at it with a 'scope'... :-) Noel From wilson at dbit.com Mon Mar 9 10:56:18 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 11:56:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: <54FCF59B.80401@jwsss.com> References: <20150308074301.GA7942@dbit.dbit.com> <54FCF59B.80401@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20150309155618.GA17398@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Mar 08, 2015 at 06:21:31PM -0700, jwsmobile wrote: >Can you dig up this include file in the source? > >include > >I didn't find it in your /pub/pdp11 or at least not a candidate. > >I saw the binary is there too, but it would be nice to have all the info to >compile it in one place in case I need it. p16f84.inc came with the assembler -- I forget whether I was still using DOS MPASM at that point, or GPASM (the GPLed clone). Anyway the PIC-CPU-specific defs are all I was pulling out of there, so whatever the file is on your assembler is right. Maybe that's an 8.3.-ified version of the filename and pic16f84.inc would be the one to use on Windows or Linux. John Wilson D Bit From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Mar 9 15:03:11 2015 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2015 14:03:11 -0600 Subject: Ceiling Apples In-Reply-To: References: <4FEE62FB-770E-484A-8D54-AC0ECFF8E3CF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <54FDFC7F.7020807@Rikers.org> Nice write up. Thanx! Wish I had a color monitor for my //e enhanced instead of the green one I have now. Anyone have one they are not interested in? From billdeg at buzz1.com Mon Mar 9 13:56:25 2015 From: billdeg at buzz1.com (B Degnan) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 14:56:25 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/40 AC LO and M7235 (Status K5 Module) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11a2baacd22440ffbd57322c8299d91e@buzz1.com> > > > From: B Degnan > > > Yes, steady voltage > > I think Tony meant 'did you look at it with a 'scope'... :-) > > Noel I used two different scopes and a Fluke meter that can capture MIN/MAX. It's a nice steady flow as far as I can tell. The min/max is in the hundredths place, there is no major ripple. Bill From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 9 15:56:22 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 22:56:22 +0200 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Thanks for photos! Chip codes seems from 77...79. It is obvious, it is not mass producted (board type, also serial no. of vector board is 039). Maybe tailor made for some special CAD system? "Vector Gen" board seems some nice Signetics chips, like weird multiport 8x4-bit ram (82S112), maybe used as some buffer? Top of that same card goes 12-bit bus to 8263 multiplexers (wild guess: 4-bit for each color?). Also there is 32x8 PROMs (82S23), maybe used as glue logic / sequencer, too small for look up table. How many 16Kx16 + ALUs board there were? Three? Maybe there is one processor/memory for each color plane... You have to put that back to live, and make some reverse engineering. It seems to be really exciting machine! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 15:53:19 +0000 > > > Please send some photos of that Sigma's miracle! > > I have posted a few pictures of the unit and the PCB in it on my flickr account. You can find them here : > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/tony_duell/sets/72157651171931246/ > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 9 16:04:28 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 21:04:28 +0000 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: > > Thanks for photos! > > Chip codes seems from 77...79. It is obvious, it is not mass producted (board type, also serial no. of vector > board is 039). Maybe tailor made for some special CAD system? The fact that 2 of the boards are wire-wrapped not PCBs suggests it was a low-production unit, but equally it is too well made to be a one-off kludge IMHO. > > "Vector Gen" board seems some nice Signetics chips, like weird multiport 8x4-bit ram (82S112), maybe used as > some buffer? Top of that same card goes 12-bit bus to 8263 multiplexers (wild guess: 4-bit for each color?). I suspect it's similar to the little state machine in the HP2623 terminal for line drawing and these RAMs contain the parameters for the state machine. I doubt it's 4 bits per colour, I suspect lines are drawn one at a time, you specify the colour, the state machine does its thing and the colour setting simply determines which bits in the video RAM are changed. So the vector generator would not know anything about the colour > Also there is 32x8 PROMs (82S23), maybe used as glue logic / sequencer, too small for look up table. I think that's a state machine type of sequencer. > > How many 16Kx16 + ALUs board there were? Three? Maybe there is one processor/memory for each color > plane... 6 of them. It might be 2 boards per colour, but one thing I didn't notice until later were the 74189 RAMs on the video processor board (the one with the DACs on it). My guess is that these are a colour look up table forming a mapping between bits in video RAM and the DACs (maybe 3 off 5 bit DACs). This suggests 4 bits per pixel (to address the CLUT RAMs) at the video memory side, how that fits in with the 6 Pixel Store boards I don't know. > > You have to put that back to live, and make some reverse engineering. It seems to be really exciting machine! It is going to be a big job to sort it out, but one that will be worth doing. That is, unless manuals for it turn up... -tony From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Mon Mar 9 18:34:21 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:34:21 -0500 Subject: Input text, output 300 bps? Message-ID: I?m wondering if anyone has seen something like this: You input text. The program converts the text into what it would sound like if it were being transmitted at 300 baud which you can then save. Oh, I imagine that, say, I dunno, some kind of 300 baud modem could do this, but I don?t have such a beast. I wondered if someone may have created such an item as a programming exercise.? Cheers, m From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 9 18:47:09 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:47:09 -0500 Subject: Input text, output 300 bps? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150309234709.GB2234@n0jcf.net> On Monday (03/09/2015 at 06:34PM -0500), Mike Whalen wrote: > I?m wondering if anyone has seen something like this: > > You input text. The program converts the text into what it would sound like if it were being transmitted at 300 baud which you can then save. http://www.whence.com/minimodem/ > Oh, I imagine that, say, I dunno, some kind of 300 baud modem could do this, but I don?t have such a beast. I wondered if someone may have created such an item as a programming exercise.? -- Chris Elmquist From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Mon Mar 9 18:48:39 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:48:39 -0500 Subject: Input text, output 300 bps? In-Reply-To: <20150309234709.GB2234@n0jcf.net> References: <20150309234709.GB2234@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On March 9, 2015 at 6:47:17 PM, Chris Elmquist (chrise at pobox.com) wrote: On Monday (03/09/2015 at 06:34PM -0500), Mike Whalen wrote:? > I?m wondering if anyone has seen something like this:? >? > You input text. The program converts the text into what it would sound like if it were being transmitted at 300 baud which you can then save.? http://www.whence.com/minimodem/? Cheers, m From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 9 17:32:34 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 00:32:34 +0200 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Sounds really weird, six times memory and ALUs..? Maybe that another set of three CPU+MEMs are just for another independend graphic layer? I noticed before, but there is VIDEO IN connector. What if this is video mixer, I mean system which you can made text and etc. effects to over real time video... Where that video in goes, to same video processor board..? Anyways, this can be long shot, but eBay is full of Sigma Electronics Inc. (not Ltd.) video generators and mixers, like this... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sigma-Electronics-SS-2100-16-Plus-HSB-16-Video-Switching-System-SS2100/171438618692 Same company..? http://www.sigmatechsys.com/index.htm ...send photo to them, maybe they regocnize that box! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 > Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 21:04:28 +0000 > > > > > Thanks for photos! > > > > Chip codes seems from 77...79. It is obvious, it is not mass producted (board type, also serial no. of vector > > board is 039). Maybe tailor made for some special CAD system? > > The fact that 2 of the boards are wire-wrapped not PCBs suggests it was a low-production unit, but equally it > is too well made to be a one-off kludge IMHO. > > > > > "Vector Gen" board seems some nice Signetics chips, like weird multiport 8x4-bit ram (82S112), maybe used as > > some buffer? Top of that same card goes 12-bit bus to 8263 multiplexers (wild guess: 4-bit for each color?). > > I suspect it's similar to the little state machine in the HP2623 terminal for line drawing and these RAMs contain the > parameters for the state machine. > > I doubt it's 4 bits per colour, I suspect lines are drawn one at a time, you specify the colour, the state machine > does its thing and the colour setting simply determines which bits in the video RAM are changed. So the > vector generator would not know anything about the colour > > > Also there is 32x8 PROMs (82S23), maybe used as glue logic / sequencer, too small for look up table. > > I think that's a state machine type of sequencer. > > > > > How many 16Kx16 + ALUs board there were? Three? Maybe there is one processor/memory for each color > > plane... > > 6 of them. It might be 2 boards per colour, but one thing I didn't notice until later were the 74189 RAMs on > the video processor board (the one with the DACs on it). My guess is that these are a colour look up table > forming a mapping between bits in video RAM and the DACs (maybe 3 off 5 bit DACs). This suggests 4 bits > per pixel (to address the CLUT RAMs) at the video memory side, how that fits in with the 6 Pixel Store boards > I don't know. > > > > > > > You have to put that back to live, and make some reverse engineering. It seems to be really exciting machine! > > It is going to be a big job to sort it out, but one that will be worth doing. That is, unless manuals for it turn up... > > -tony From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Mar 9 20:18:31 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2015 18:18:31 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 with ATX power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm also interested in mating an ATX supply with a QBUS backplane. I have a naked backplane (I think it's either Q18-CD or Q22-CD) that I bought off eBay, and I plan to (eventually) use it as a dedicated bench test backplane for working on boards. I figured I'd mate it up with an ATX supply. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 9 23:59:07 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 04:59:07 +0000 Subject: Sigma Electronics Systems Display Generator 5564 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: > Sounds really weird, six times memory and ALUs..? Maybe that another set of three CPU+MEMs are just for > another independend graphic layer? Maybe, but I suspect it's more interesting than that. > I noticed before, but there is VIDEO IN connector. What if this is video mixer, I mean system which you can > made text and etc. effects to over real time video... Where that video in goes, to same video processor board..? Yes, the 5 BNCs are wired to that 20 way ribbon cable (seen in the picture of the front view of the cardcage). That plugs into the header on the video processor board. There are 2 wires each for the centre and shield of each BNC, maybe to get the characteristic impedence of the cable correct. My guess is that it is like the video input on the VT100. The video outputs from the unit are added (analogue) to this signal and fed to the output BNCs. The external video source has to be synced to the terminal rather than vice versa. -tony From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 10:53:25 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 17:53:25 +0200 Subject: Seeking HP1000/21MX TTY (12531B/C) board Message-ID: I'm planning connect my HP1000 to ASR-33, so I could play with it for real...but only problem: I have no TTY board :( Anyone have spare for sell/exchange/donate? I might consider give up my Grumman HP1000 SCSI controller board in exchange... Also I'm interested other boards (X&Y and RS232), peripherals and etc. HP stuff... - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 10 11:17:12 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 11:17:12 -0500 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <54FF1908.9010202@pico-systems.com> On 03/08/2015 01:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/06/2015 11:30 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> What size? >> >> > OK, I checked this unit, and it powers up fine. I also > have an MDB card > cage with backplane, 8 slot, marked MLSI chassis backplane > #40328. > > I also have a DEC backplane only, no card cage, Backplane > Assy 5412233 > I'm assuming from the 4 x 9 slots it must be Q-bus, but I > don't know > any more than that. > > Jon > So, I still have one of the powered 9-slot Q-bus backplanes available. Also, the above mentioned DEC backplane and the MDB backplane with card cage. All, I'm assuming, are Q-bus. Anybody want these? Thanks, Jon From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 10 14:01:15 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:01:15 -0500 Subject: Seeking HP1000/21MX TTY (12531B/C) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801d05b64$95f56910$c1e03b30$@classiccmp.org> Johannes.... I've probably got 80+ units of most every HP board for the 1000/21MX series, with a couple notable exceptions that I'm short on. I might be able to get you a tty board in exchange for the scsi board. However, I will NOT give up my KSR model 35 teletype ;) Best, J From jws at jwsss.com Tue Mar 10 14:08:49 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 12:08:49 -0700 Subject: Data General 800 or 1200 frame, power supply and front panel Message-ID: <54FF4141.4060900@jwsss.com> I have a friend with a large number of pulls from DG 800's and 1200's and am sending out a general query to see who might have a chassis to serve as a system for testing and eventual build up of a system. We will be photographing / posting somewhere the boards, but he feels they are ffrom the Nova 800 or 1200 and not later. Thanks Jim From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 10 15:18:16 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 22:18:16 +0200 Subject: Seeking HP1000/21MX TTY (12531B/C) board In-Reply-To: <002801d05b64$95f56910$c1e03b30$@classiccmp.org> References: , <002801d05b64$95f56910$c1e03b30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Wow, you have "full house" of HP cards :D 2nd wow, KSR 35! Don't worry, I'm not going to whine it from you, I'm happy with my "Nokia" labeled ASR-33 ;) I'll send PM! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: jwest at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Seeking HP1000/21MX TTY (12531B/C) board > Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 14:01:15 -0500 > > Johannes.... > > I've probably got 80+ units of most every HP board for the 1000/21MX series, > with a couple notable exceptions that I'm short on. I might be able to get > you a tty board in exchange for the scsi board. However, I will NOT give up > my KSR model 35 teletype ;) > > Best, > > J > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Mar 10 10:08:05 2015 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 08:08:05 -0700 Subject: Question about core sense amplifiers Message-ID: <910743A6CCA74D28B929A3E52DCD01EA@Vincew7> I've got a technical question about core memories. I've been looking, in particular, at the MC1540G sense amplifier. There's an external capacitor that is supposed to be connected between pins 1 and 10 (it looks like about .01uF was traditional). Maybe I'm being thick this week, but I don't quite get what this does for the circuit. It's part of the "DC restoration" section. I think I have some idea what amplification and slicing mean in this context, but "DC restoration" isn't firing any neurons. Can any of you that have studied how core works help me understand this? Thanks, Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Mar 10 16:40:48 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 22:40:48 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? Message-ID: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> Hi all I was told that VAX-11/750 memory could also be used in an PDP-11/70 (or maybe some other model). Is this true? I have also read that there are three kinds of memory boards for the 11/750: M8728: 256k byte memory array; M8750: 1M byte memory array; M7199: 4M byte memory array. (As well as some third party boards. Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? Kind Regards, Pontus. From steven at malikoff.com Tue Mar 10 20:01:14 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:01:14 +1000 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/03 front bezel (2U high) Message-ID: <222e098ae5093046c1c9d5d15d780a2e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Hi all, I'm looking for the front panel for a 19" 2RU (3-1/2") high four-slot PDP-11/03-KA, with a rectangular hole for the three switches. Looking at photos on the web, some appeared to have badges and some didn't, is that the case? I've not much to swap in my 'stash' except some old Terak Qbus cards and a hex-height Unibus M7234 timing board from an 11/40, of unknown working condition so I'm happy to Paypal if you had one. Thanks for any help - I recently joined this list and the posts I've seen so far are really interesting. Regards, Steve Malikoff. From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Mar 10 18:11:31 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 00:11:31 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54FF7A23.5000602@update.uu.se> On 03/11/2015 12:03 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-10 22:40, Pontus wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I was told that VAX-11/750 memory could also be used in an PDP-11/70 (or >> maybe some other model). Is this true? > > Yes. :-) Hmm, it was probably you that told me in the first place :-) > >> I have also read that there are three kinds of memory boards for the >> 11/750: >> >> M8728: 256k byte memory array; >> M8750: 1M byte memory array; >> M7199: 4M byte memory array. >> >> (As well as some third party boards. >> >> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? > > Only the 256K ones. Thank you! I only have the bigger two, so I'll have no future regrets if ship them with the 750 when it leaves me this Saturday :'( /P From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 17:39:09 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 18:39:09 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hi all > > I was told that VAX-11/750 memory could also be used in an PDP-11/70 (or > maybe some other model). Is this true? Somewhat... > I have also read that there are three kinds of memory boards for the 11/750: > > M8728: 256k byte memory array; > M8750: 1M byte memory array; > M7199: 4M byte memory array. Yes. That sounds right (without looking up specific handle numbers), depending on which memory controller you have in your 11/750. In mine, I can handle 256K and 1MB boards. You also have to add row wires to the backplane (I did this to upgrade a 2MB 11/750 to 8MB). I have never had the fortune to run an 11/750 with 4MB boards (max of 14MB mixed with 1MB boards due to max physical address space of 16MB, shared with other resources). > (As well as some third party boards. Yes... CMI and others. I've run a couple of those. They might or might not pass DEC diags but the OS doesn't care. > Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? I am aware of the 256K array board working in the 11/70. Also, the 1MB board that works in the 11/750 also works in the 11/725 and 11/730. I _think_ the 256K board should work in the 11/725 and 11/730 but since you are limited to 5 memory boards in that backplane, 1.25MB isn't enough to boot a VMS that's compatible with that CPU. So electrically it would work, but logically, you wouldn't be able to boot it. I suppose one could try 2x1MB+3x256KB and that might be enough to boot an ancient VMS, but in practice, every 11/730 I've used was crying for 5MB of physical RAM. -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 10 18:03:38 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 00:03:38 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-10 22:40, Pontus wrote: > Hi all > > I was told that VAX-11/750 memory could also be used in an PDP-11/70 (or > maybe some other model). Is this true? Yes. :-) > I have also read that there are three kinds of memory boards for the > 11/750: > > M8728: 256k byte memory array; > M8750: 1M byte memory array; > M7199: 4M byte memory array. > > (As well as some third party boards. > > Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? Only the 256K ones. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 10 18:06:07 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 00:06:07 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-11 00:03, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-10 22:40, Pontus wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I was told that VAX-11/750 memory could also be used in an PDP-11/70 (or >> maybe some other model). Is this true? > > Yes. :-) > >> I have also read that there are three kinds of memory boards for the >> 11/750: >> >> M8728: 256k byte memory array; >> M8750: 1M byte memory array; >> M7199: 4M byte memory array. >> >> (As well as some third party boards. >> >> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? > > Only the 256K ones. By the way, while I'm at it. The 4M ones can only be used if you have the right memory controller in a 11/750 as well, and then only two of them, in the first two slots. The rest are at most 1M cards, if I remember right. And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and I'll walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is not trivial, but it is possible.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 18:11:58 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 19:11:58 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? > And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and I'll > walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is not > trivial, but it is possible.) I have a crate of 256MB RAM on my 11/70s but I'd love to learn what it takes to use 1MB boards (which I have a few of from 11/750s and 11/730s and 11/725s). I might decide it's too much trouble, but I'd to know what's involved. -ethan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 11 02:23:09 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 08:23:09 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150311072309.GA23294@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:06:07AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > By the way, while I'm at it. > The 4M ones can only be used if you have the right memory controller > in a 11/750 as well, and then only two of them, in the first two > slots. The rest are at most 1M cards, if I remember right. That is correct, it's pretty well described here: http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/750faq.html Regards, Pontus. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 07:30:16 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 08:30:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP-11/03 front bezel (2U high) In-Reply-To: <222e098ae5093046c1c9d5d15d780a2e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <222e098ae5093046c1c9d5d15d780a2e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: I have one that I don't wish to part with, but in the name of pdp11 brotherhood, let me know if nothing else turns up and I'll reconsider. --jake On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 9:01 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I'm looking for the front panel for a 19" 2RU (3-1/2") high four-slot > PDP-11/03-KA, with a rectangular hole for the three switches. Looking at > photos on the web, some appeared to have badges and some didn't, is that > the case? > I've not much to swap in my 'stash' except some old Terak Qbus cards and a > hex-height Unibus M7234 timing board from an 11/40, of unknown working > condition so I'm happy to Paypal if you had one. > Thanks for any help - I recently joined this list and the posts I've seen > so far are really interesting. > Regards, > > Steve Malikoff. > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 11 10:44:14 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:44:14 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150311154413.GC15688@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:03:38AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Only the 256K ones. A small follow-up. Can a M8728 (256K) be used in an 11/44? /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Mar 11 10:44:14 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:44:14 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150311154413.GC15688@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:03:38AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Only the 256K ones. A small follow-up. Can a M8728 (256K) be used in an 11/44? /P From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 11 10:39:21 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 16:39:21 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-11 00:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? >> And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and I'll >> walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is not >> trivial, but it is possible.) > > I have a crate of 256MB RAM on my 11/70s but I'd love to learn what it > takes to use 1MB boards (which I have a few of from 11/750s and > 11/730s and 11/725s). I might decide it's too much trouble, but I'd > to know what's involved. 256K, not 256M, but anyway... :-) There are several bits to it. The MK11 only have 18 address pins on the backplane, which means it cannot directly address larger boards. In addition, there are 16 card select pins. One for each slot. At power on, the memory controller in the MK11 writes to all cards in parallel, in order to initialize the ECC bits on all cards. The way you get 1M cards to work is that you need to tie together 4 card select lines, so that your 1M card would appear to be four 256K cards in the MK11. In addition, you also need to code back from the four select lines into the two additional address lines. This is not so hard. Essentially we're talking about a OR of 4 lines, and a 4-2 encoder. Important additional detail is that you *really* want to make sure that when all cards are select together, that is equivalent to the lowest addressed cards. So far for the hardware. After you've done this, you then also needs to fix a software problem. Like I said at the start, the MK11 initialize all the ECC of all the cards, at initialization time. And it does this in parallel for all cards. That means all card select lines are active together at initialization. And then the address lines runs through address 0-256K doing writes. This means that the ECC for 3/4 of a 1M card will not be initialized. The 1/4 that do get initialized, you want to be the low addresses, since those you need before you can really do anything more. Having memory errors for address 0 is really bad. Once you've come this far, you need to write a short program that will initialize the ECC of the rest of your memory. This can be done through software, but it requires some tricks. Normal writes of memory expects the ECC to already be correct, so you need to turn off ECC checking in the MK11 before writing to the uninitialized memory. You can turn off ECC checking in the MK11 by changing a CSR register, where you can set the operation of the MK11. However, there is a problem here. The CSR is in the MK11 box. But the MK11 box is on the memory bus, and not on the Unibus. And the CSR address is in I/O space. The trick for this is to use the MMU and the Unibus map to get access to the I/O space on the memory bus. How this actually is done is hidden deep inside one of the technical manuals of the 11/70, and in a rather weird form. I can't seem to find that manual online. It's something like "11/70 memory subsystem manunal" or something similar. I (Update) have a hardcopy of it somewhere. But the theory of it is not so hard. You access an address in the Unibus memory address space, using the MMU. The Unibus map then remaps this address into an address in the I/O space. All access of memory through the Unibus map will go to the memory bus. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 11 11:35:41 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:35:41 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <20150311154413.GC15688@Update.UU.SE> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <20150311154413.GC15688@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <55006EDD.2050500@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-11 16:44, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:03:38AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> Only the 256K ones. > > A small follow-up. Can a M8728 (256K) be used in an 11/44? No. The memory in the 11/70 (and VAXen) is 32 bits wide. The other 11s have 16-bit wide memory. Johnny From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 11 12:22:12 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:22:12 -0700 Subject: Question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: <910743A6CCA74D28B929A3E52DCD01EA@Vincew7> References: <910743A6CCA74D28B929A3E52DCD01EA@Vincew7> Message-ID: <633DCDB3-D9AF-47D1-8BE8-2F769834241C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-10, at 8:08 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I've got a technical question about core memories. I've been looking, in particular, at the MC1540G sense amplifier. There's an external capacitor that is supposed to be connected between pins 1 and 10 (it looks like about .01uF was traditional). Maybe I'm being thick this week, but I don't quite get what this does for the circuit. It's part of the "DC restoration" section. > > I think I have some idea what amplification and slicing mean in this context, but "DC restoration" isn't firing any neurons. > > Can any of you that have studied how core works help me understand this? Looking at the 1540 internals schematic, it looks like a frequency compensation capacitor. Early op amps like the 709 required external capacitors for freq. comp. Core sense amps are essentially a form of voltage comparator adapted to respond to the absolute value of a differential input (produce the same output for a voltage difference of either polarity at the inputs), and voltage comparators in turn are essentially op-amps running open-loop. (if that helps any . . ) From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 11 12:45:45 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 10:45:45 -0700 Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers Message-ID: OK, while we're on the topic of core memory sense circuitry, in some of the old calculators that I've come across (a good example being the Casio AL-1000 -- http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/al1kck10l.html) ) there are transformers (pulse transformers) in the core memory sense circuitry. What purpose would these serve, and why are they used in some core memory applications, and not in others? In the case of the AL-1000, similar transformers are used in the X-Y drivers as well. Core memory sense amps and drivers are that mystical analog stuff that I don't understand very well :-) Can someone enlighten me about these transformers? Thanks, -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 11 13:31:49 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:31:49 -0400 Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34DD33F6-4BF3-4E34-A245-CE950C2A4DEB@comcast.net> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > OK, while we're on the topic of core memory sense circuitry, in some of > the old calculators that I've come across (a good example being the > Casio AL-1000 -- http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/al1kck10l.html) ) there > are transformers (pulse transformers) in the core memory sense > circuitry. What purpose would these serve, and why are they used in > some core memory applications, and not in others? In the case of the > AL-1000, similar transformers are used in the X-Y drivers as well. > > Core memory sense amps and drivers are that mystical analog stuff that I > don't understand very well :-) > Can someone enlighten me about these transformers? I found a very good detailed description of high speed core memory in the CDC 6600 training manual ? copy available on bitsavers at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60147400A_6600_Training_Manual_Jun65.pdf . Chapter 4 describes the memory. It includes schematics, and a pretty detailed description of how the circuits work. Those memories are a bit more complex than usual; there are two inhibit wires rather than one, and the inhibit does not cover the whole core plane but only a part of it (i.e., there are several independent inhibit current paths). It doesn?t say why. My best guess is that this is to keep the inductance of the inhibit wire similar to that of the X and Y wires, so the same driver design works with roughly the same timing. This memory is much faster than most other memories of the same era: 1 microsecond full cycle, in 1964. paul From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Mar 11 13:43:33 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: <34DD33F6-4BF3-4E34-A245-CE950C2A4DEB@comcast.net> References: <34DD33F6-4BF3-4E34-A245-CE950C2A4DEB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Mar 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> OK, while we're on the topic of core memory sense circuitry, in some of >> the old calculators that I've come across (a good example being the >> Casio AL-1000 -- http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/al1kck10l.html) ) there >> are transformers (pulse transformers) in the core memory sense >> circuitry. What purpose would these serve, and why are they used in >> some core memory applications, and not in others? In the case of the >> AL-1000, similar transformers are used in the X-Y drivers as well. >> >> Core memory sense amps and drivers are that mystical analog stuff that I >> don't understand very well :-) >> Can someone enlighten me about these transformers? > > I found a very good detailed description of high speed core memory in the CDC 6600 training manual ? copy available on bitsavers at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60147400A_6600_Training_Manual_Jun65.pdf . Chapter 4 describes the memory. It includes schematics, and a pretty detailed description of how the circuits work. > > Those memories are a bit more complex than usual; there are two inhibit wires rather than one, and the inhibit does not cover the whole core plane but only a part of it (i.e., there are several independent inhibit current paths). It doesn?t say why. My best guess is that this is to keep the inductance of the inhibit wire similar to that of the X and Y wires, so the same driver design works with roughly the same timing. This memory is much faster than most other memories of the same era: 1 microsecond full cycle, in 1964. There's an article online from Byte Magazine, July 1976, about coincident current core memory: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Byte/76jul.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 11 16:47:03 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:47:03 -0700 Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99F95CA3-9AA9-4734-A541-EE18B954FCB1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-11, at 10:45 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, while we're on the topic of core memory sense circuitry, in some of > the old calculators that I've come across (a good example being the > Casio AL-1000 -- http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/al1kck10l.html) ) there > are transformers (pulse transformers) in the core memory sense > circuitry. What purpose would these serve, and why are they used in > some core memory applications, and not in others? In the case of the > AL-1000, similar transformers are used in the X-Y drivers as well. > > Core memory sense amps and drivers are that mystical analog stuff that I > don't understand very well :-) > Can someone enlighten me about these transformers? Speaking very generally, pulse transformers were often used in the discrete days as a cheaper means of providing some circuit functions compared to doing so with multiple transistors. -- Regarding the AL-1000 specifically: schematic ref: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calctd/CasioAL1000.pdf, page 21-22. The transformers in the sense amps are formed as a single primary & center-tapped secondary. The floating primary is essentially a cheap way of providing a differential input. (Be it transformers or ICs, the differential input is used with the sense loop - in contrast to grounding one side of the sense loop - to avoid detecting (to reject) common-mode noise and induced signals produced by all the other electrical activity on the address lines.) The center-tapped secondary is then used in essence for the "absolute-value" function: one or the other side of the secondary will produce an equivalent pulse for a pulse of either + or ? polarity from the sense loop / primary. Each side of the secondary has a one-transistor amplifier, then combined in the AND gate - actually functioning as a negative-logic OR - to produce the output indication of a sense-pulse having been seen. The "absolute-value" function is necessary because the typical threading of core memories has the sense line going through half the cores in one direction and half the cores in the other direction relative to the address wire currents. This results in a read-pulse on the address wires producing a relative-positive pulse for half the cores and a relative-negative pulse for the other half. That is, if A & B are the two ends of the sense loop, then the sense amplifier must produce an output indication if either: V(A-B) > Vthreshold or V(A-B) < ?Vthreshold == V(B-A) > Vthreshold Similarly, the address-line drivers use a center-tapped primary configuration as a cheap way of providing the bi-directional drive current for the address wires (like push-pull audio). Note in contrast the inhibit drivers - which only require uni-directional current - do not use transformers. -- In other core (and other digital) designs, pulse transformers were used to simplify the binary decoding functions in address decoding, by putting n*n transformers into a matrix, driving them by 2n drivers along the matrix axes, and taking pulse outputs off each secondary. This is much better described graphically than in prose, but for example, in a core memory system I have, 8 of the 15 address lines need to be decoded to 1-of-256. It does so with two sets of 16 pulse transformers formed into two 4*4 matrices. Each of the 4 axis of 4 lines is driven by simple 2-bit to 1-of-4 decoders. The 16 secondaries from each little matrix then drive each end of one core plane axis of address wires, thus forming them into a 16*16 matrix. Each address wire is thus selected as 1-of-256. That accounts for just one axis of the core plane, a similar scheme is used for the other 7 address bits for the other axis of 128 wires, to achieve the net 1-of-32,768 memory word decoding. Pulse transformers could also be used to isolate and float a signal, so it's voltage level relative to ground could be shifted to something more amenable to another circuit element. For example in nixie anode drivers, the digit pulse of say 0-to-5V relative to ground could be shifted up to 180-to-185V to trigger the anode driver. Keep in mind that in audio and telephone, transformers were used for some similar objectives: producing the differential drive and input for balanced lines for common-mode rejection. Pulse transformers are still used in twisted-pair ethernet line xcvrs, for differential input with high common-mode voltage rejection. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 11 20:59:02 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:59:02 -0500 Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5500F2E6.8060202@pico-systems.com> On 03/11/2015 12:45 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, while we're on the topic of core memory sense circuitry, in some of > the old calculators that I've come across (a good example being the > Casio AL-1000 -- http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/al1kck10l.html) ) there > are transformers (pulse transformers) in the core memory sense > circuitry. What purpose would these serve, and why are they used in > some core memory applications, and not in others? In the case of the > AL-1000, similar transformers are used in the X-Y drivers as well. > > I think most core memories that use the 3-wire scheme use transformers to couple the sense amps. The older, 4-wire scheme used separate wires for the inhibit wire and the sense wire. When merging those (which allowed smaller cores, thus faster cycle time) you had a bunch of driver transistors attached to the sense/inhibit winding, which may have unbalanced the line, affecting the balance of the sense amp. Well, I think that is somewhat close to the reason for them. Jon From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Mar 11 21:22:20 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:22:20 +1300 Subject: Another New Zealand Bits&Bytes scan Message-ID: Through the efforts of a volunteer, I've re-started uploading scans of New Zealand Bits & Bytes, Browsing through the pages might be of interest to some. This one is from February 1987. Among other things there are reviews on the Commodore PC/AT and the Apple IIGS. It also includes an article I co-wrote on a simulation I developed for my students. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/bits-and-bytes/issue5.5.htm Other issues will be uploaded when Richard (the volunteer) gets time to scan them. Terry (Tez) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Mar 11 21:40:04 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:40:04 -0500 Subject: 2 big anniversaries are looming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was hoping for an Amiga event in the USA. Oh, there's this! http://amiga30.com/ at CHM, July 25. - John From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 11 11:37:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 17:37:03 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55006F2F.6010603@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-11 16:53, Paul Birkel wrote: > Perhaps the Chapters 9/10/11 on Cache, MMU and Unibus Map in > KA-K1170-MG-003 are what you're thinking of (somehow ... :->)? > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/KA-K1170-MG-003_1170_Maintenance_Service_Guide_Apr88.pdf Nope. The manual I'm thinking of is for the memory subsystem only. And it has a really nice/odd description on how you reach the MK11 CSR, which is written in the form of a small adventure story. (Almost) Johnny > > On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> On 2015-03-11 00:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Johnny Billquist >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? >>>>>> >>>>> And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and >>>> I'll >>>> walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is not >>>> trivial, but it is possible.) >>>> >>> >>> I have a crate of 256MB RAM on my 11/70s but I'd love to learn what it >>> takes to use 1MB boards (which I have a few of from 11/750s and >>> 11/730s and 11/725s). I might decide it's too much trouble, but I'd >>> to know what's involved. >>> >> >> 256K, not 256M, but anyway... :-) >> >> There are several bits to it. >> The MK11 only have 18 address pins on the backplane, which means it cannot >> directly address larger boards. In addition, there are 16 card select pins. >> One for each slot. At power on, the memory controller in the MK11 writes to >> all cards in parallel, in order to initialize the ECC bits on all cards. >> >> The way you get 1M cards to work is that you need to tie together 4 card >> select lines, so that your 1M card would appear to be four 256K cards in >> the MK11. >> >> In addition, you also need to code back from the four select lines into >> the two additional address lines. >> >> This is not so hard. Essentially we're talking about a OR of 4 lines, and >> a 4-2 encoder. >> >> Important additional detail is that you *really* want to make sure that >> when all cards are select together, that is equivalent to the lowest >> addressed cards. >> >> So far for the hardware. >> >> After you've done this, you then also needs to fix a software problem. >> Like I said at the start, the MK11 initialize all the ECC of all the cards, >> at initialization time. And it does this in parallel for all cards. That >> means all card select lines are active together at initialization. And then >> the address lines runs through address 0-256K doing writes. >> >> This means that the ECC for 3/4 of a 1M card will not be initialized. The >> 1/4 that do get initialized, you want to be the low addresses, since those >> you need before you can really do anything more. Having memory errors for >> address 0 is really bad. >> >> Once you've come this far, you need to write a short program that will >> initialize the ECC of the rest of your memory. This can be done through >> software, but it requires some tricks. Normal writes of memory expects the >> ECC to already be correct, so you need to turn off ECC checking in the MK11 >> before writing to the uninitialized memory. You can turn off ECC checking >> in the MK11 by changing a CSR register, where you can set the operation of >> the MK11. >> However, there is a problem here. The CSR is in the MK11 box. But the MK11 >> box is on the memory bus, and not on the Unibus. And the CSR address is in >> I/O space. >> The trick for this is to use the MMU and the Unibus map to get access to >> the I/O space on the memory bus. >> How this actually is done is hidden deep inside one of the technical >> manuals of the 11/70, and in a rather weird form. >> I can't seem to find that manual online. It's something like "11/70 memory >> subsystem manunal" or something similar. I (Update) have a hardcopy of it >> somewhere. >> >> But the theory of it is not so hard. You access an address in the Unibus >> memory address space, using the MMU. The Unibus map then remaps this >> address into an address in the I/O space. All access of memory through the >> Unibus map will go to the memory bus. >> >> Johnny >> >> From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 10:53:57 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 11:53:57 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Perhaps the Chapters 9/10/11 on Cache, MMU and Unibus Map in KA-K1170-MG-003 are what you're thinking of (somehow ... :->)? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/KA-K1170-MG-003_1170_Maintenance_Service_Guide_Apr88.pdf On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-11 00:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Johnny Billquist >> wrote: >> >>> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? >>>>> >>>> And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and >>> I'll >>> walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is not >>> trivial, but it is possible.) >>> >> >> I have a crate of 256MB RAM on my 11/70s but I'd love to learn what it >> takes to use 1MB boards (which I have a few of from 11/750s and >> 11/730s and 11/725s). I might decide it's too much trouble, but I'd >> to know what's involved. >> > > 256K, not 256M, but anyway... :-) > > There are several bits to it. > The MK11 only have 18 address pins on the backplane, which means it cannot > directly address larger boards. In addition, there are 16 card select pins. > One for each slot. At power on, the memory controller in the MK11 writes to > all cards in parallel, in order to initialize the ECC bits on all cards. > > The way you get 1M cards to work is that you need to tie together 4 card > select lines, so that your 1M card would appear to be four 256K cards in > the MK11. > > In addition, you also need to code back from the four select lines into > the two additional address lines. > > This is not so hard. Essentially we're talking about a OR of 4 lines, and > a 4-2 encoder. > > Important additional detail is that you *really* want to make sure that > when all cards are select together, that is equivalent to the lowest > addressed cards. > > So far for the hardware. > > After you've done this, you then also needs to fix a software problem. > Like I said at the start, the MK11 initialize all the ECC of all the cards, > at initialization time. And it does this in parallel for all cards. That > means all card select lines are active together at initialization. And then > the address lines runs through address 0-256K doing writes. > > This means that the ECC for 3/4 of a 1M card will not be initialized. The > 1/4 that do get initialized, you want to be the low addresses, since those > you need before you can really do anything more. Having memory errors for > address 0 is really bad. > > Once you've come this far, you need to write a short program that will > initialize the ECC of the rest of your memory. This can be done through > software, but it requires some tricks. Normal writes of memory expects the > ECC to already be correct, so you need to turn off ECC checking in the MK11 > before writing to the uninitialized memory. You can turn off ECC checking > in the MK11 by changing a CSR register, where you can set the operation of > the MK11. > However, there is a problem here. The CSR is in the MK11 box. But the MK11 > box is on the memory bus, and not on the Unibus. And the CSR address is in > I/O space. > The trick for this is to use the MMU and the Unibus map to get access to > the I/O space on the memory bus. > How this actually is done is hidden deep inside one of the technical > manuals of the 11/70, and in a rather weird form. > I can't seem to find that manual online. It's something like "11/70 memory > subsystem manunal" or something similar. I (Update) have a hardcopy of it > somewhere. > > But the theory of it is not so hard. You access an address in the Unibus > memory address space, using the MMU. The Unibus map then remaps this > address into an address in the I/O space. All access of memory through the > Unibus map will go to the memory bus. > > Johnny > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 12:10:51 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 13:10:51 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me > > 256K, not 256M, but anyway... :-) Ah yes, as you say. 256K. > There are several bits to it. > The MK11 only have 18 address pins on the backplane, which means it cannot > directly address larger boards. Right. That's why you have to add wires when upgrading an older 11/750. Just putting in new boards isn't enough. > In addition, there are 16 card select pins. One for each slot. Sure.... makes sense. > At power on, the memory controller in the MK11 writes to > all cards in parallel, in order to initialize the ECC bits on all cards. Ah ha! That's the not-obvious trick. > This is not so hard. Essentially we're talking about a OR of 4 lines, and a > 4-2 encoder. Sure. This part makes sense to reverse the "fan-out" for the per-slot select. > Important additional detail is that you *really* want to make sure that when > all cards are select together, that is equivalent to the lowest addressed > cards. This totally makes sense in light of the initialization phase. > This means that the ECC for 3/4 of a 1M card will not be initialized. > > Once you've come this far, you need to write a short program that will > initialize the ECC of the rest of your memory... You can turn off ECC > checking in the MK11 by changing a CSR register... on the memory bus, > and not on the Unibus. And the CSR address is in I/O space... Thank you for a very good explanation of the pitfalls. So I take it that refresh isn't an issue then? I'm not likely to try this since I do have enough 256K boards for my 11/70s (and I have plenty of places to stick 1M boards in VAXen), but it's interesting to see what it takes. Thanks! -ethan From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 13:30:47 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 14:30:47 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/750 memory in 11/70 ? In-Reply-To: <55006F2F.6010603@update.uu.se> References: <54FF64E0.40702@update.uu.se> <54FF784A.2060801@update.uu.se> <54FF78DF.3050308@update.uu.se> <550061A9.7020008@update.uu.se> <55006F2F.6010603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Then keep looking (please) ... and thanks for the lucid explanation. Hadn't previously given any thought to initialization of ECC memory. Now I know better! On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 12:37 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-11 16:53, Paul Birkel wrote: > >> Perhaps the Chapters 9/10/11 on Cache, MMU and Unibus Map in >> KA-K1170-MG-003 are what you're thinking of (somehow ... :->)? >> >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/ >> KA-K1170-MG-003_1170_Maintenance_Service_Guide_Apr88.pdf >> > > Nope. The manual I'm thinking of is for the memory subsystem only. And it > has a really nice/odd description on how you reach the MK11 CSR, which is > written in the form of a small adventure story. (Almost) > > Johnny > > > >> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Johnny Billquist >> wrote: >> >> On 2015-03-11 00:11, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Johnny Billquist >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Which one of these, if any, could be used in an 11/70? >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> And if you absolutely want to use 1M cards in an 11/70, ping me, and >>>>>> >>>>> I'll >>>>> walk you through the howto. (Update have done this in the past. It is >>>>> not >>>>> trivial, but it is possible.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I have a crate of 256MB RAM on my 11/70s but I'd love to learn what it >>>> takes to use 1MB boards (which I have a few of from 11/750s and >>>> 11/730s and 11/725s). I might decide it's too much trouble, but I'd >>>> to know what's involved. >>>> >>>> >>> 256K, not 256M, but anyway... :-) >>> >>> There are several bits to it. >>> The MK11 only have 18 address pins on the backplane, which means it >>> cannot >>> directly address larger boards. In addition, there are 16 card select >>> pins. >>> One for each slot. At power on, the memory controller in the MK11 writes >>> to >>> all cards in parallel, in order to initialize the ECC bits on all cards. >>> >>> The way you get 1M cards to work is that you need to tie together 4 card >>> select lines, so that your 1M card would appear to be four 256K cards in >>> the MK11. >>> >>> In addition, you also need to code back from the four select lines into >>> the two additional address lines. >>> >>> This is not so hard. Essentially we're talking about a OR of 4 lines, and >>> a 4-2 encoder. >>> >>> Important additional detail is that you *really* want to make sure that >>> when all cards are select together, that is equivalent to the lowest >>> addressed cards. >>> >>> So far for the hardware. >>> >>> After you've done this, you then also needs to fix a software problem. >>> Like I said at the start, the MK11 initialize all the ECC of all the >>> cards, >>> at initialization time. And it does this in parallel for all cards. That >>> means all card select lines are active together at initialization. And >>> then >>> the address lines runs through address 0-256K doing writes. >>> >>> This means that the ECC for 3/4 of a 1M card will not be initialized. The >>> 1/4 that do get initialized, you want to be the low addresses, since >>> those >>> you need before you can really do anything more. Having memory errors for >>> address 0 is really bad. >>> >>> Once you've come this far, you need to write a short program that will >>> initialize the ECC of the rest of your memory. This can be done through >>> software, but it requires some tricks. Normal writes of memory expects >>> the >>> ECC to already be correct, so you need to turn off ECC checking in the >>> MK11 >>> before writing to the uninitialized memory. You can turn off ECC checking >>> in the MK11 by changing a CSR register, where you can set the operation >>> of >>> the MK11. >>> However, there is a problem here. The CSR is in the MK11 box. But the >>> MK11 >>> box is on the memory bus, and not on the Unibus. And the CSR address is >>> in >>> I/O space. >>> The trick for this is to use the MMU and the Unibus map to get access to >>> the I/O space on the memory bus. >>> How this actually is done is hidden deep inside one of the technical >>> manuals of the 11/70, and in a rather weird form. >>> I can't seem to find that manual online. It's something like "11/70 >>> memory >>> subsystem manunal" or something similar. I (Update) have a hardcopy of it >>> somewhere. >>> >>> But the theory of it is not so hard. You access an address in the Unibus >>> memory address space, using the MMU. The Unibus map then remaps this >>> address into an address in the I/O space. All access of memory through >>> the >>> Unibus map will go to the memory bus. >>> >>> Johnny >>> >>> >>> > From mstaunton at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 11 22:14:56 2015 From: mstaunton at roadrunner.com (mstaunton) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 20:14:56 -0700 Subject: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 In-Reply-To: <95A8F11E-6B3B-4451-B174-8FD8EB79A2B1@roadrunner.com> References: <7D9CB56D-AC31-47C5-BE5F-C83126F303C6@gewt.net> <95A8F11E-6B3B-4451-B174-8FD8EB79A2B1@roadrunner.com> Message-ID: <008501d05c72$b7b00e20$27102a60$@com> Sorry again new year work rush. Is anybody still interested -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Staunton Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 8:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 btw the Mentor Graphics is also based on the Apollo and contains all the same parts. I will be posting a full inventory of all hardware specs this weekend. Sent from my iPad On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > > Id love the Apollo. List a starting price. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 20, 2015, at 21:20, Matthew Staunton wrote: >> >> Sorry got really sick. Below is the model numbers. I will supply more info if anybody is interested >> Pricing is open due to shipping weight is included >> >> CRT monitors working with cables >> HP A4033A 65lbs >> HP A45764 75lbs >> >> servers/workstations >> HP Visualize C180 30lbs >> HP Apollo 400 MOD#A2193A 90lbs >> Mentor Graphics HLN5065W 100lbs >> I clan also be contacted via cell 7607030986 >> From b4 at gewt.net Thu Mar 12 02:02:57 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 03:02:57 -0400 Subject: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 In-Reply-To: <008501d05c72$b7b00e20$27102a60$@com> References: <7D9CB56D-AC31-47C5-BE5F-C83126F303C6@gewt.net> <95A8F11E-6B3B-4451-B174-8FD8EB79A2B1@roadrunner.com> <008501d05c72$b7b00e20$27102a60$@com> Message-ID: <710E5DAC-280B-4215-96B3-76CAFD6C9EE4@gewt.net> Price for the Apollo or mentor graphics? Or both? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2015, at 23:14, mstaunton wrote: > > Sorry again new year work rush. Is anybody still interested > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matthew > Staunton > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 8:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 > > btw the Mentor Graphics is also based on the Apollo and contains all the > same parts. I will be posting a full inventory of all hardware specs this > weekend. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> Id love the Apollo. List a starting price. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 21:20, Matthew Staunton > wrote: >>> >>> Sorry got really sick. Below is the model numbers. I will supply more > info if anybody is interested >>> Pricing is open due to shipping weight is included >>> >>> CRT monitors working with cables >>> HP A4033A 65lbs >>> HP A45764 75lbs >>> >>> servers/workstations >>> HP Visualize C180 30lbs >>> HP Apollo 400 MOD#A2193A 90lbs >>> Mentor Graphics HLN5065W 100lbs >>> I clan also be contacted via cell 7607030986 > From b4 at gewt.net Thu Mar 12 02:02:57 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 03:02:57 -0400 Subject: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 In-Reply-To: <008501d05c72$b7b00e20$27102a60$@com> References: <7D9CB56D-AC31-47C5-BE5F-C83126F303C6@gewt.net> <95A8F11E-6B3B-4451-B174-8FD8EB79A2B1@roadrunner.com> <008501d05c72$b7b00e20$27102a60$@com> Message-ID: <710E5DAC-280B-4215-96B3-76CAFD6C9EE4@gewt.net> Price for the Apollo or mentor graphics? Or both? Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2015, at 23:14, mstaunton wrote: > > Sorry again new year work rush. Is anybody still interested > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Matthew > Staunton > Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 8:12 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: San Diego, CA: 1991 ERA AS400 > > btw the Mentor Graphics is also based on the Apollo and contains all the > same parts. I will be posting a full inventory of all hardware specs this > weekend. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jan 20, 2015, at 11:03 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: >> >> >> Id love the Apollo. List a starting price. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jan 20, 2015, at 21:20, Matthew Staunton > wrote: >>> >>> Sorry got really sick. Below is the model numbers. I will supply more > info if anybody is interested >>> Pricing is open due to shipping weight is included >>> >>> CRT monitors working with cables >>> HP A4033A 65lbs >>> HP A45764 75lbs >>> >>> servers/workstations >>> HP Visualize C180 30lbs >>> HP Apollo 400 MOD#A2193A 90lbs >>> Mentor Graphics HLN5065W 100lbs >>> I clan also be contacted via cell 7607030986 > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 12 08:45:00 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers Message-ID: <20150312134500.46EA718C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > Similarly, the address-line drivers use a center-tapped primary > configuration as a cheap way of providing the bi-directional drive > current for the address wires (like push-pull audio). On re-reading this, to ensure that I had fully extracted the content into my brain, I realized I didn't fully grok this. Could you expand a tiny bit on this (and especially the push-pull reference)? On thinking about it, I guess that what's happening is that there are two driver transistors, each attached to the center tap and one end, but with the polarity reversed. A positive pulse through one produces a positive pulse on the output secondary, whereas a positive pulse through the other produces a negative pulse on the output secondary. Or am I mis-understanding? What I don't get is why that's better than simply attaching two opposed transistors directly to the address lines, as one sees in the output stages of audio amplifiers, to handle the two halves of a sine wave. Noel From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:31:37 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 14:31:37 -0500 Subject: Dilog and Emulex boards Message-ID: While looking for parts for a fellow list members project, I found these-again, and decided it was time they found a new home. I have more than one of a few. If interested please make an offer off list. $10 shipping for one or all within US. If you are outside the US, please send me your city, country and mail code. Thanks, Paul DILOG DQ130 DQ686 Emulex SC01 SC03 TU11 TU121 UC171 QD241 From slandon110 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 15:22:38 2015 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 16:22:38 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist Message-ID: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> Thought id share this with you guys. http://annarbor.craigslist.org/sys/4913726464.html He says his bottom dollar is $250. I could possibly coordinate pick up if someone out of the area wanted it. Just cover my gas is all I ask. Steve From scaron at umich.edu Thu Mar 12 15:23:13 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 16:23:13 -0400 Subject: Dilog and Emulex boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you have Q-bus SCSI and can beat the standing eBay price of like $250 a card I'm interested but I can't do the deal until I get my tax refund back. Best, Sean On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > While looking for parts for a fellow list members project, I found > these-again, and decided it was time they found a new home. I have more > than one of a few. > > If interested please make an offer off list. $10 shipping for one or all > within US. If you are outside the US, please send me your city, country and > mail code. > > Thanks, Paul > > DILOG > > DQ130 > DQ686 > > > Emulex > > SC01 > SC03 > TU11 > TU121 > UC171 > QD241 > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 16:01:38 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 16:01:38 -0500 Subject: Dilog and Emulex boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sean, Waiting is not a big problem, unless I trip over it. The problem is I have no idea which boards, if any are SCSI. Some I know aren't, but I don't have very good docs here to look them up, or time to do it on line. If you can find one on there that will work for you, we can put something together and wait. Need anything else? Thanks, Paul On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > If you have Q-bus SCSI and can beat the standing eBay price of like $250 a > card I'm interested but I can't do the deal until I get my tax refund back. > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > While looking for parts for a fellow list members project, I found > > these-again, and decided it was time they found a new home. I have more > > than one of a few. > > > > If interested please make an offer off list. $10 shipping for one or all > > within US. If you are outside the US, please send me your city, country > and > > mail code. > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > DILOG > > > > DQ130 > > DQ686 > > > > > > Emulex > > > > SC01 > > SC03 > > TU11 > > TU121 > > UC171 > > QD241 > > > From scaron at umich.edu Thu Mar 12 16:14:55 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:14:55 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: I live in Ann Arbor (well, Ypsilanti) and I've been tracking that thing on eBay for at least a year or so... nine months? I figure, if I ever see the listing disappear, I will try to catch the seller on the way to the scrap yard, ha ha... I think they would have better luck if they parted it out; nobody wants to take that rack; I would gladly take the BA23 local pickup and I'd even offer them like $100 or something for it separately but I don't want the rest... They could probably get a decent price for the 9-track drive if they pulled that and sold it separately... they are likely never going to move the gear (outside of paying someone to come pick it up) unless they ditch the rack. If anyone here is interested in the deal; I'm happy to facilitate as much as I can but my garage has got enough racks in it already, LOL. Best, Sean On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > Thought id share this with you guys. > > http://annarbor.craigslist.org/sys/4913726464.html > > He says his bottom dollar is $250. > > I could possibly coordinate pick up if someone out of the area wanted it. > Just cover my gas is all I ask. > > Steve > From b4 at gewt.net Thu Mar 12 16:47:01 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dilog and Emulex boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Mar 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: [Manual excerpt, or descriptions follow] > > DILOG > > DQ130 Dilog DU120 tape controller. Emulates TM11. 4 Drives. Pertec I/O > DQ686 > Dilog 4 x ESDI disk controller. Emulates MSCP. Replaced (with restrictions) by DQ696. > > Emulex > > SC01 This manual provides information related to the capabilities, desiqn and installation of the SC01 disk controller. This controller can be used in LSI- 11 based systems to interface to any large disks having a Storage Module Drive (SMD) interface. This controller is capable of emulating a number of disk subsystems built for the PDP-11 by Digital Equipment Corporation. Details of the functional characteristics of the controller in a particular emulation can be found in the appropriate User's Manual. > SC03 SC03 Q Emulex SMD disk controller. Emulates RM11/RM03 Includes BDV11-compatible line-time clock. > TU11 Tape controller of some sort > TU121 Google turns up a "TU1210201" which is a tape formatter for use with a TC13. > UC171 Looks to be Dual-port SCSI > QD241 ??? QD24 is an ESDI controller emulating MSCP...possible relation? > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 17:08:37 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:08:37 -0500 Subject: Dilog and Emulex boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Cory, They both did strange things with numbers. I've seen people use 2 digits, 3 digits, and sometimes all 6 or so. Paul On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Thu, 12 Mar 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: > > [Manual excerpt, or descriptions follow] > > >> DILOG >> >> DQ130 >> > > Dilog DU120 tape controller. Emulates TM11. > 4 Drives. Pertec I/O > > DQ686 >> >> > Dilog 4 x ESDI disk controller. Emulates > MSCP. Replaced (with restrictions) by DQ696. > > >> Emulex >> >> SC01 >> > > This manual provides information related to the capabilities, desiqn > and installation of the SC01 disk controller. This controller can > be used in LSI- 11 based systems to interface to any large disks > having a Storage Module Drive (SMD) interface. This controller is > capable of emulating a number of disk subsystems built for the > PDP-11 by Digital Equipment Corporation. Details of the functional > characteristics of the controller in a particular emulation can be > found in the appropriate User's Manual. > > SC03 >> > > SC03 Q Emulex SMD disk controller. Emulates RM11/RM03 > Includes BDV11-compatible line-time clock. > > TU11 >> > > Tape controller of some sort > > TU121 >> > > Google turns up a "TU1210201" which is a tape formatter for use with a > TC13. > > UC171 >> > > Looks to be Dual-port SCSI > > QD241 >> > > ??? > > QD24 is an ESDI controller emulating MSCP...possible relation? > > >> > -- > Cory Smelosky > http://gewt.net Personal stuff > http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects > From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Mar 12 18:09:07 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:09:07 -0500 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 05:14:55PM -0400, Sean Caron wrote: > my garage has got enough racks in it already, LOL. blasphemy! mcl From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Mar 12 18:39:55 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 16:39:55 -0700 Subject: Accurite Technologies Message-ID: <004801d05d1d$d93db8c0$8bb92a40$@net> I was wondering if anyone out there knew if these guys are still in business? I want to order something but before sharing my CC info I actually want to make sure there is someone on the other end of the line. I've tried emailing them and calling multiple times. Emails have gone unanswered and the number is never picked up. It goes to what seems to be a generic home answering machine. Thanks. -Ali From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 12 21:57:22 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 21:57:22 -0500 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <002801d05d39$6dec34e0$49c49ea0$@classiccmp.org> Sean wrote... > my garage has got enough racks in it already, LOL. To which Mark replied >blasphemy! Nah, blasphemy would be parting the thing out like Sean suggested. $250-$300 for that.... reasonable in my book. J From philip at neoncluster.com Fri Mar 13 00:12:18 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 18:12:18 +1300 Subject: Another New Zealand Bits&Bytes scan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great stuff Terry. Thanks again for your great support for the community. Philip > On Mar 12, 2015, at 3:22 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > Through the efforts of a volunteer, I've re-started uploading scans of New > Zealand Bits & Bytes, Browsing through the pages might be of interest to > some. > > This one is from February 1987. Among other things there are reviews on > the Commodore PC/AT and the Apple IIGS. It also includes an article I > co-wrote on a simulation I developed for my students. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/bits-and-bytes/issue5.5.htm > > Other issues will be uploaded when Richard (the volunteer) gets time to > scan them. > > Terry (Tez) From scaron at umich.edu Thu Mar 12 22:24:49 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 23:24:49 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: <002801d05d39$6dec34e0$49c49ea0$@classiccmp.org> References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> <002801d05d39$6dec34e0$49c49ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: There's nothing particularly special about it... just a (relatively stripped, at that) BA23 and a CDC 9-track drive in a rack. If the buyer could actually sell the stuff by breaking it into shippable parts it might contribute to a good home for the gear in the long run I don't see any harm in that... Many systems are designed to be whole-rack units and I agree it's wrong to split those up... but IMO this is not really an example of that... Best, Sean On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 10:57 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Sean wrote... > > my garage has got enough racks in it already, LOL. > > To which Mark replied > >blasphemy! > > Nah, blasphemy would be parting the thing out like Sean suggested. > > $250-$300 for that.... reasonable in my book. > > J > > > From tiggerlasv at aim.com Fri Mar 13 02:01:55 2015 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 03:01:55 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist Message-ID: <14c11f07db7-417-b0fc@webprd-m36.mail.aol.com> The BA23 isn't as stripped as mentioned earlier. The front-panel bezel can be seen laying in the bottom of the rack, and the back door to the chassis is present, with no empty filler plates. I've seen photos of the inside of the chassis, so I have some information on the contents - The backplane is fully populated with boards -- there are no empty slots. 1.) Some sort of MicroVAX CPU, with unknown amount of memory. 2.) 2 x Emulex CS02's (32 serial lines total) with the possibility of the rack-mount bulkheads. 3.) RQDX3 controller 4.) TQK50 controller 5.) DZV11 controller There is another quad Emulex board (model unknown) as well as an unidentified dual-wide board. One of these is a pertec controller -- I just don't know which. T From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 13 10:36:36 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 10:36:36 -0500 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> <002801d05d39$6dec34e0$49c49ea0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55030404.6040409@pico-systems.com> On 03/12/2015 10:24 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > There's nothing particularly special about it... just a (relatively > stripped, at that) BA23 and a CDC 9-track drive in a rack. If the buyer > could actually sell the stuff by breaking it into shippable parts it might > contribute to a good home for the gear in the long run I don't see any harm > in that... Many systems are designed to be whole-rack units and I agree > it's wrong to split those up... but IMO this is not really an example of > that... > > Hmmm, CDC 9-track tape drive? How is that interfaced? SCSI? Ah, I see some mention of Emulex boards, so probably one of those is the Pertec formatted interface. The tape drive is a Magnetic Peripherals Inc., either 92181 (800/1600) or a 92185 (1600/6250). There was a SCSI interface board for these drives, which I'd like to find. I have a 92185 with the Pertec interface, and made a hideous little interface board for it, but it is somewhat of a nightmare. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 13 11:34:48 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner Message-ID: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like to ask for recommendations. I'm looking for something that's easy to find on eBay, not _too_ expensive, and can handle (via the appropriate adapters, which should also be relatively easy to find) a very wide range of old PROMs/EPROMs from back in the day. (I.e. ability to support modern chips is not really an issue.) The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common capability or not). Serial interface preferred, but I could work with parallel (again, no idea what was usual). Thanks in advance for any insight! Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 13 11:36:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:36:20 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000001d05dab$d6599410$830cbc30$@classiccmp.org> Noel wrote.... ---- So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like to ask for recommendations. [snip] ---- Data I/O 29B with Unipak2 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 13 12:07:51 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:07:51 -0500 Subject: Terak 8512 external 8 inch floppy drives Message-ID: I'm tinkering to connect the CBMStuff.com SuperCard Pro to eight-inch floppy drives. The SuperCard has a contemporary 34-pin floppy connector. The Terak 8510 main unit held a drive and its system cards, and its external 8512 drives just held a power supply and a floppy drive. The ribbon cables between 8510 and 8512 are 40 pin. The 8512 doesn't have its own power switch. The back of the 8512 has a small circuit board. (And by "back", I mean the board is actually exposed, which seems odd for a computer that's otherwise built as robust as aircraft or mil-spec.) It accepts the 50-pin cable from the internal floppy drive and has two 40-pin male for daisy-chain ribbons to the 8510 and additional 8512. The board has a socket for a drive terminator and a DIP for setting the drive ID. The 8512 power supply has a relay that must be sensing a signal on the 40-pin cable, as that's what turns on the 8512. Similarly, the Terak main unit's single power switch controls the Terak mono monitor. I haven't traced the signals on the board yet, and I have not yet found a doc that explains the cable pin-out. Because I have a bunch of 8512, it would be convenient for me to be able to use them as self-standing eight-inch drives. I purchased one of John Wilson's 50-pin Shugart to 34-pin adapters for its generation of the TG43 signal and the LED blinkenlightz. I'm tempted to tease out the Terak's 40-pin pinout and perhaps make some sort of adapter to go to 50-pin. - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Mar 13 12:31:52 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 10:31:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New scans. Message-ID: I've uploaded the issues of International Journal of Computer Forensics and the Z-Letters I got from Chuck a while back. They're on http://www.retroarchive.org All scans were done at 600dpi. I'll be getting them uploaded to the IA as well. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 13:07:16 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:07:16 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 10 Message-ID: The silence may have led you to believe that it was all over. Oh no... The 10th Vintage Computer Festival is a GO! Bigger, bolder, nerdier than ever, a wonderful way to tack on our second digit, VCFMW10 will be held August 29-30 at the Holiday Inn Chicago-Elk Grove Village. A remarkable convergence of amenities and price have come together in this spot. Among the features: - A single 4550 sqft banquet hall - at long last, VCFMW and ECCC shall truly be one! - First-floor facilities - no more elevator rides or Level of Discharge! - 11'x12' loading doors that open direct to the parking lot - you could drive a truck right into the ballroom, but don't! - A separate room for talks, videos, quiet time, etc - like we're a real conference or something! - No (known) conflicts with holidays, wives' birthdays or other local events! - The quaint, vaguely Blade Runner-esque surroundings of industrial parks, truck depots and factories - just the way we like it! - An on-site restaurant, pool, exercise room, outdoor firepit/smoking area, shuttle buses to/from the airport and Woodfield mall, close proximity to fast-food and the two greatest Chicago eateries, Portillo's and Lou Malnati's! (Seriously, those two alone are reason enough to attend.) I have updated the http://vcfmw.org web page and FAQ with most of the information we have so far. Please give them a read before posting questions. Hotel room rates will be slightly higher than last year's $79 at the Fairfield Inn; I am still negotiating the block rate. Due to the restaurant being on-site, there will be no continental breakfast. Sorry :( Now the hard sell: all of this geek-luxury does not come without a price. Some of you know that the deal we had at the Heron Point was extraordinary and unheard-of in the event hosting business. Since the HP no longer rents to the public, we were faced with the choice of resting on our successful nine-year record or figuring out a way for the show to go on. And go on it shall...with your help. Without getting into specifics, the cost of putting on VCFMW has more than doubled - and we are getting a bargain if our comparison shopping is to be trusted. Donation links have been set up on the main VCFMW page for PayPal and GoFundMe sites. Please use the GFM only if you do not have a PayPal account, as GFM charges us a fee. If you'd prefer to donate in person, contact me directly. I will get you a receipt (sorry, we're not a 501.3c yet, so it won't be tax-free.) The main site features our non-patented Donate-o-Meter which will (more-or-less) track our progress. We have a lot of time to reach our goal as payment is not due until the day of the show. Extra money raised will be either spent on bonus features for the show (more space, pizza bar, etc.) or put into a fund for next year. We will engange with the community as much as possible before making any decsion regarding extra funds. There will be much to do between now and August - a new floor plan to design, tables to allocate, speakers to recruit. But our first big task is one where everyone can help: let's get the word out! Many of you are on forums that I am not, so spread the news: the show will go on! -j From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 13 13:32:54 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 11:32:54 -0700 Subject: 360/50 microcode listing Message-ID: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org> CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which are the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded yesterday to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050 This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a while now. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 13 13:43:53 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:43:53 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004c01d05dbd$a8287450$f8795cf0$@classiccmp.org> Jason wrote.... ---- The 10th Vintage Computer Festival is a GO! ---- Three cheers for Jason! AWESOME and THANK YOU! Your hard work on pulling this together for the community is sincerely appreciated! I'm hoping - this year - to have a non-trivial display for VCFMW. Details if I can get it arranged :) J From scaron at umich.edu Fri Mar 13 11:29:57 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 12:29:57 -0400 Subject: MicroVax II in original DEC Rack on Ann Arbor MI Craigslist In-Reply-To: <55030404.6040409@pico-systems.com> References: <5501F58E.7050900@gmail.com> <20150312230907.GA20859@lonesome.com> <002801d05d39$6dec34e0$49c49ea0$@classiccmp.org> <55030404.6040409@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I guess I just look at the situation more that I was able to get more VAX shipped in from CA for less money than simply picking this thing up in my own backyard... If the system is really important to someone I'm happy to help facilitate your purchase and you're welcome to store it in my garage for some definite period of time :O I didn't ever mean to say the 9-track drive was worthless, quite the contrary, it's probably where the bulk of the value is in the rack... it's just that I can't really use it personally so it's less interesting to me. Best, Sean On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/12/2015 10:24 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> There's nothing particularly special about it... just a (relatively >> stripped, at that) BA23 and a CDC 9-track drive in a rack. If the buyer >> could actually sell the stuff by breaking it into shippable parts it might >> contribute to a good home for the gear in the long run I don't see any >> harm >> in that... Many systems are designed to be whole-rack units and I agree >> it's wrong to split those up... but IMO this is not really an example of >> that... >> >> >> Hmmm, CDC 9-track tape drive? How is that interfaced? SCSI? > Ah, I see some mention of Emulex boards, so probably one of > those is the Pertec formatted interface. The tape drive is a > Magnetic Peripherals Inc., either 92181 (800/1600) or a > 92185 (1600/6250). > > There was a SCSI interface board for these drives, which I'd > like to find. I have a 92185 with the Pertec interface, and made > a hideous little interface board for it, but it is somewhat of > a nightmare. > > Jon > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 13 15:30:40 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:30:40 -0700 Subject: Another question about core sense amplifiers In-Reply-To: <20150312134500.46EA718C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150312134500.46EA718C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-12, at 6:45 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> Similarly, the address-line drivers use a center-tapped primary >> configuration as a cheap way of providing the bi-directional drive >> current for the address wires (like push-pull audio). > > On re-reading this, to ensure that I had fully extracted the content into my > brain, I realized I didn't fully grok this. Could you expand a tiny bit on > this (and especially the push-pull reference)? > > On thinking about it, I guess that what's happening is that there are two > driver transistors, each attached to the center tap and one end, but with the > polarity reversed. A positive pulse through one produces a positive pulse on > the output secondary, whereas a positive pulse through the other produces a > negative pulse on the output secondary. Or am I mis-understanding? That's not quite the circuit arrangement, but yes, that is the operating principle. The center-tap is driven by the address-selection to +supply, one end is driven by the read-pulse driver for one polarity of pulse, the other end by the write-pulse driver for the other polarity, the latter both going to GND. > What I don't get is why that's better than simply attaching two opposed > transistors directly to the address lines, as one sees in the output stages > of audio amplifiers, to handle the two halves of a sine wave. In a direct-coupled arrangement a regulated dual-polarity power supply is needed, rather than single-polarity, and there's going to be some asymmetry and additional complexity to driving the output drivers in either a complementary or stacked-pair arrangement. With the transformers, the +/? pulse drivers are identical in design and components - there is no asymmetry - there's some benefit to that in easily getting matching characteristics of the +/? address pulses. Even in that other design I was describing (from the late-70s), the transformers did the level-shifting to drive the output drivers as half are on the +supply and half on the ?supply, which then directly drove the address wires. For a single-polarity supply it could be done with an H-bridge-style arrangement, requiring more transistors. There's lots of ways of doing it, with changing economies and tradeoffs. It's a mid-60s calculator, and while the design issues are not entirely the same, it's from the same period when every cheap 6- or 7-transistor radio had two audio transformers to implement push-pull drive - which is to say little transformers were a functional and economic option for the time. We don't bother today of course, as a zillion transistors in an IC are better and cheaper. (Just for some additional context, it wasn't till the late-60s that solid-state audio really started focussing on direct-coupled designs and getting rid of the output transformer.) From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Mar 13 16:52:02 2015 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:52:02 +0100 Subject: 360/50 microcode listing In-Reply-To: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org> References: <55032D56.2070504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <55035C02.7050003@update.uu.se> On 03/13/2015 07:32 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a > while now. > Congratulations :) And keep up the good work. /P From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Mar 13 18:12:04 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:12:04 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress Message-ID: Hi All, Long time reader, first time poster. I am in need of some assistance in trying to revive an IBM 5100. It is a Basic 32k version that was in rough shape. You can see pics here: http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-5100-before/ I've been able to clean it up but when I fire it up I see a single "A" on screen. I can't seem to get into any diagnostic modes. The single "A" indicates an issue with the F2 Base I/O card. Some of the ICs do have some rust on them but I'm wondering if it might be the "bridge connectors" between the Base I/O and Controller (CPU) card. Are they directional or can then be swapped or turned around? I may have not kept them in the correct orientation but I don't see any mention in the Maintenance manual. I, pretty much, need someone who has one to take a picture of the top of their Base I/O and Controller cards. Any help is much appreciated. If someone happens to know a common issue that would make the "Bring up Program" stop at A, I'd love to hear about it. Thanks in advance, Santo From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Fri Mar 13 18:13:25 2015 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 23:13:25 +0000 Subject: Another New Zealand Bits&Bytes scan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55036F15.1040608@ljw.me.uk> Thanks Terry & co - I hadn't noticed these before. I see I have my name in B&B No 1 as I was on the committee of the NZ Microcomputer Club :) Quite a few names there from the past. LJW On 12/03/15 02:22, Terry Stewart wrote: > Through the efforts of a volunteer, I've re-started uploading scans of New > Zealand Bits & Bytes, Browsing through the pages might be of interest to > some. > > This one is from February 1987. Among other things there are reviews on > the Commodore PC/AT and the Apple IIGS. It also includes an article I > co-wrote on a simulation I developed for my students. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/bits-and-bytes/issue5.5.htm > > Other issues will be uploaded when Richard (the volunteer) gets time to > scan them. > > Terry (Tez) > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)7841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 13 20:51:19 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 20:51:19 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> On 03/13/2015 11:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like to ask > for recommendations. > > > > The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common > capability or not). Yes, they all need this capability, as that's how you verify the write got all the bits set correctly. I have a Logical Devices Allpro 88, with the ISA card that controls it, if that is of any interest to anybody. I do NOT have a copy of the software for it. I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. I doubt you will find anything with a serial interface. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 13 21:08:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 19:08:45 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5503982D.5070907@sydex.com> On 03/13/2015 06:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. > It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't > find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. Well, as with any tool, it depends on what you're planning on doing. Do you foresee the need to program PALs? GALs? MCUs? How about testing old TTL packages? Do you need program the old 3-rail EPROMs? (e.g. 2704, 2708)? I like the Xeltek Superpro as well. I'm a little shy about the Chinese USB models because you don't know what the heck is in them. But you can't beat the price. Some folks like the Willem-based programmers. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Mar 13 21:31:22 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 03:31:22 +0100 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-14 02:51, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/13/2015 11:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd >> like to ask >> for recommendations. >> >> >> >> The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common >> capability or not). > Yes, they all need this capability, as that's how you verify the write > got all the bits > set correctly. > > I have a Logical Devices Allpro 88, with the ISA card that controls it, > if that is > of any interest to anybody. I do NOT have a copy of the software for it. > > I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. > It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't > find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. > > I doubt you will find anything with a serial interface. There definitely exist PROM programmers with serial interface, even if none are made any longer. If anyone happen to have, or stumble on a PKW-1000, I wrote a program for RSX-11M-PLUS to use it from there. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Mar 14 00:09:10 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:09:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> Santo, This is the first time I am seeing the "5106". Is that an external tape drive for the 5100? -Ali From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 14 00:20:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 00:20:20 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <002401d05e16$91875000$b495f000$@classiccmp.org> I believe he said his primary interest was the old bipolar proms (82S141, 82S129, etc.). I didn't think the more "modern" ones mentioned earlier in this thread would do those but I could be wrong. The data I/O 29B most definitely has a serial port, does the old bipolars, and is somewhat frequently on ebay. The serial port has 3 modes; one is designed to hook up a dumb terminal to and it presents menus. The second is a simple protocol you can type by hand. I think the third is for use with an external computer (and they provide dos-based "Prom-Link" which provides full control over the programmer). J From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 02:27:18 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 00:27:18 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F7B7407F9274924924748858B897F8A@workshop> >Jay wrote... >Data I/O 29B with Unipak2 Nice and very vintage! But not cheap (>$400?). http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/330940089317?lpid=82&chn=ps What about the modern TL866? Anybody has experience with these? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLG03f_ua5g - Marc From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 02:37:54 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 02:37:54 -0500 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> Message-ID: Congrats, Santo - and my best wishes for your project. I feel like I can speak for many of us, when I say "Thank you" for taking interest in this old machine. Please do your best to document your experience with it, and I'm sure that we'll all (including posterity) appreciate your efforts! On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ali wrote: > Santo, > > This is the first time I am seeing the "5106". Is that an external tape > drive for the 5100? > > -Ali > > From scaron at umich.edu Fri Mar 13 21:01:06 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 22:01:06 -0400 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure how old or unusual you're trying to read or write but I've been very satisfied with my GQ-4X USB that I got on eBay... Great deal at $100. Best, Sean On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 9:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/13/2015 11:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like >> to ask >> for recommendations. >> >> >> >> The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common >> capability or not). >> > Yes, they all need this capability, as that's how you verify the write got > all the bits > set correctly. > > I have a Logical Devices Allpro 88, with the ISA card that controls it, if > that is > of any interest to anybody. I do NOT have a copy of the software for it. > > I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. > It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't > find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. > > I doubt you will find anything with a serial interface. > > Jon > > From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Fri Mar 13 23:06:12 2015 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 00:06:12 -0400 Subject: VCF Midwest 10 In-Reply-To: <5503548F.3030301@ljw.me.uk> References: <5503548F.3030301@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <000501d05e0c$3b354630$b19fd290$@sc.rr.com> Hi Lawrence, I am going to have to go to this year's VCFM10! It sounds Awesome! Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Wilkinson > Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 5:20 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Fwd: VCF Midwest 10 > > Sorry, but Jason's original message was dropped by cctech, so here it is: > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: VCF Midwest 10 > Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 13:07:16 -0500 > From: Jason T > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > The silence may have led you to believe that it was all over. Oh no... > > The 10th Vintage Computer Festival is a GO! > > Bigger, bolder, nerdier than ever, a wonderful way to tack on our > second digit, VCFMW10 will be held August 29-30 at the Holiday Inn > Chicago-Elk Grove Village. A remarkable convergence of amenities and > price have come together in this spot. Among the features: > > - A single 4550 sqft banquet hall - at long last, VCFMW and ECCC shall > truly be one! > > - First-floor facilities - no more elevator rides or Level of Discharge! > > - 11'x12' loading doors that open direct to the parking lot - you > could drive a truck right into the ballroom, but don't! > > - A separate room for talks, videos, quiet time, etc - like we're a > real conference or something! > > - No (known) conflicts with holidays, wives' birthdays or other local events! > > - The quaint, vaguely Blade Runner-esque surroundings of industrial > parks, truck depots and factories - just the way we like it! > > - An on-site restaurant, pool, exercise room, outdoor firepit/smoking > area, shuttle buses to/from the airport and Woodfield mall, close > proximity to fast-food and the two greatest Chicago eateries, > Portillo's and Lou Malnati's! (Seriously, those two alone are reason > enough to attend.) > > I have updated the http://vcfmw.org web page and FAQ with most of the > information we have so far. Please give them a read before posting > questions. Hotel room rates will be slightly higher than last year's > $79 at the Fairfield Inn; I am still negotiating the block rate. Due > to the restaurant being on-site, there will be no continental > breakfast. Sorry :( > > Now the hard sell: all of this geek-luxury does not come without a > price. Some of you know that the deal we had at the Heron Point was > extraordinary and unheard-of in the event hosting business. Since the > HP no longer rents to the public, we were faced with the choice of > resting on our successful nine-year record or figuring out a way for > the show to go on. And go on it shall...with your help. Without > getting into specifics, the cost of putting on VCFMW has more than > doubled - and we are getting a bargain if our comparison shopping is > to be trusted. > > Donation links have been set up on the main VCFMW page for PayPal and > GoFundMe sites. Please use the GFM only if you do not have a PayPal > account, as GFM charges us a fee. If you'd prefer to donate in > person, contact me directly. I will get you a receipt (sorry, we're > not a 501.3c yet, so it won't be tax-free.) The main site features > our non-patented Donate-o-Meter which will (more-or-less) track our > progress. We have a lot of time to reach our goal as payment is not > due until the day of the show. > > Extra money raised will be either spent on bonus features for the show > (more space, pizza bar, etc.) or put into a fund for next year. We > will engange with the community as much as possible before making any > decsion regarding extra funds. > > There will be much to do between now and August - a new floor plan to > design, tables to allocate, speakers to recruit. But our first big > task is one where everyone can help: let's get the word out! Many of > you are on forums that I am not, so spread the news: the show will go > on! > > -j > From roeapeterson at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 04:14:25 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 03:14:25 -0600 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <9F7B7407F9274924924748858B897F8A@workshop> References: <9F7B7407F9274924924748858B897F8A@workshop> Message-ID: >> Jay wrote... >> Data I/O 29B with Unipak2 > > Nice and very vintage! But not cheap (>$400?). > http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/330940089317?lpid=82&chn=ps > > What about the modern TL866? Anybody has experience with these? > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLG03f_ua5g They are fairly decent units, but can not handle 68764/68766 EPROMS, which you might need for pdp11 systems. > > - Marc > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Mar 14 05:11:13 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 05:11:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <5503982D.5070907@sydex.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <5503982D.5070907@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Mar 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/13/2015 06:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. >> It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't >> find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. > > Well, as with any tool, it depends on what you're planning on doing. > > Do you foresee the need to program PALs? GALs? MCUs? > > How about testing old TTL packages? > > Do you need program the old 3-rail EPROMs? (e.g. 2704, 2708)? > > I like the Xeltek Superpro as well. I'm a little shy about the Chinese > USB models because you don't know what the heck is in them. But you > can't beat the price. Some folks like the Willem-based programmers. Most of the Chinese made programmers I've seen have been either outright copies or variations of Willem's designs. I seem to remember some of his later board versions used a relay which would allow them to program devices that required more current during programming. http://web.archive.org/web/20090501014807/http://www.willem.org/ From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 09:03:06 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:03:06 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> Message-ID: Yes, it is an external tape drive that is very similar to the internal drive. I'm guessing it was touted as doubling the "mass storage" for the 5100 but it was probably used for backups. Unfortunately, I don't have any tapes or documentation and thee is supposed to be a supplemental tape that had the utility to make backup tapes. I'll take some more pics when I clean it up. I've only ever seen a picture of the front online. There are a few examples out there but it is not common. On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 1:09 AM, Ali wrote: > Santo, > > This is the first time I am seeing the "5106". Is that an external tape > drive for the 5100? > > -Ali > > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 09:12:19 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:12:19 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> Message-ID: Thank you but no need for thanks. If I did that for every wonderful restoration project I've read about, we would need a listserv just for that (not to mention great websites with helpful tips for us hobby restorers) :) For this particular project, thanks should go out to those archiving documentation like the IBM 5100 Maintenance manual that gives me the proper tools to even attempt this. Santo On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 3:37 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Congrats, Santo - and my best wishes for your project. > > I feel like I can speak for many of us, when I say "Thank you" for taking > interest in this old machine. Please do your best to document your > experience with it, and I'm sure that we'll all (including posterity) > appreciate your efforts! > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:09 AM, Ali wrote: > > > Santo, > > > > This is the first time I am seeing the "5106". Is that an external tape > > drive for the 5100? > > > > -Ali > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 14 10:17:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 15:17:06 -0000 Subject: DESQA Manual? Message-ID: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> I picked up a DESQA recently which seems to be configured for thinwire rather than AUI. There is no external switch for it and I can't find a manual to tell me how to swap it to AUI. Does anyone have a scan of the manual? BitSavers doesn't have it, and the Manx link is broken and is probably only for the ToC. Regards Rob From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 10:32:09 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:32:09 +0100 Subject: DEC manuals: interest to scan it? Message-ID: <55045479.4060309@gmail.com> Hello, I have the following manuals, I could scan them if not already available somewhere. Al, please could you check if you have all of them on bitsavers, or if you need some parts to be rescanned? FORTRAN 77 AD-L979A-T1 F77 LANGUAGE REFERENCE MANUAL AD-1884D-T1 F77 USER GUIDE AD-1874C-T1 F77 OBJECT TIME SYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL AA-JQ94A-TK F77 DOCUMENTATION SUPPLEMENT PDP11 FORTRAN AA-1855D-TC FORTRAN LANGUAGE REFERENCE MANUAL AA-1936F-TC FORTRAN USER GUIDE RSX-11M AE-H653B-TK SOFTWARE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION AA-2593M-TC INFORMATION DIRECTORY AND MASTER INDEX AA-2573I-TC RELEASE NOTES AA-W259F-TC UPDATE NOTES REV A AA-L763B-TC INTRODUCTION TO RSX-11M AI-Y508B-TE GUIDE TO VAX/VMS FILE APPLICATIONS AA-D035D-TE FORTRAN USER GUIDE AA-H953E-TE FORTRAN INSTALLATION GUIDE / RELEASE NOTES AA-KN06A-TE VAX/VMS RELEASE NOTES V4.6 AA-R429A-TE VAX11 DECGRAPH USER GUIDE AA-1749E-TC PDP11 COBOL AA-L672C-TC RSX-11M COMMAND LANGUAGE MANUAL AA-L671A-TC RSX-11M BATCH AND QUEUE OPERATIONS MANUAL AA-FD05A-TC INDIRECT COMMAND PROCEDURE MANUAL VT240 PROGRAMMER REFERENCE MANUAL VOLUME 1 AA-H625C-TC RSX-11M SYSTEM GENERATION AND INSTALLATION GUIDE AA-JK92A-TE INTRODUCTION TO DATABASE DEVELOPMENT AA-93A-TE INTRODUCTION TO APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT AA-Y501A-TE GUIDE TO USING DCL AND COMMAND PROCEDURES ON VAX/VMS AI-Y516A-TE VAX/VMS MINI REFERENCE AA-FB84A-TE GUIDE TO CREATING MODULAR PROCEDURES ON VAX/VMS Andrea From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 10:41:23 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:41:23 +0100 Subject: M4data model 9914 tape drive Message-ID: <550456A3.1020101@gmail.com> Hello, I managed to repair the SCSI board of my tape unit. In the end it was fairy simple, just one bus buffer not working as expected. On SCSI board I have ROM 193996 rev 10, while on control board ROM 123248 rev 30 and ROMs 123615/123616 rev 06. Could worth to update it for better tape reading support or compatibility? Anybody has some more recent ROM? If anybody is interested, I can share the ROM images. Andrea From chd at chdickman.com Sat Mar 14 10:46:09 2015 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 11:46:09 -0400 Subject: DESQA Manual? In-Reply-To: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> References: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I picked up a DESQA recently which seems to be configured for thinwire > rather than AUI. There is no external switch for it and I can't find a > manual to tell me how to swap it to AUI. I think there is a ganged jumper block that needs to be moved. It is marked thinwire/thickwire. -chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 14 10:47:36 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:47:36 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <002401d05e16$91875000$b495f000$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> <002401d05e16$91875000$b495f000$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <55045818.6030008@pico-systems.com> On 03/14/2015 12:20 AM, Jay West wrote: > > I believe he said his primary interest was the old bipolar proms (82S141, > 82S129, etc.). I didn't think the more "modern" ones mentioned earlier in > this thread would do those but I could be wrong. > My Xeltek Superpro/Z supports Lattice GAL 16, 18, 20 and 22 parts, as well as PALCE. Also, Microchip 93L, and a few Nat Semi GAL 16, 20 and 22 parts. They don't even show Signetics as a manufacturer, and I didn't see any 82S types there. Jon From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 11:07:31 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 09:07:31 -0700 Subject: DESQA Manual? In-Reply-To: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> References: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I picked up a DESQA recently which seems to be configured for thinwire > rather than AUI. There is no external switch for it and I can't find a > manual to tell me how to swap it to AUI. The M3127 DESQA boards that I have all have an obvious push button externally accessible next to the BNC connector and there are externally visible LED indicators adjacent to the BNC and AUI connectors to indicate which connector is active. Those M3127 DESQA boards look like the version shown in the pictures for this eBay listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/141321641194 It appears that there is an earlier version of the M3127 DESQA which does not have that externally accessible push button. Does the M3127 DESQA board you have look like the version show in the pictures for this eBay listing? http://www.ebay.com/itm/221696083936 On that version it looks like there is a 10-way jumper block in the middle of the board and THINWIRE / THICKWIRE legends screened on the board next to the jumper block to indicate how it should be positioned to select the connector type. It looks like there are externally visible LED indicators adjacent to the BNC and AUI connectors to indicate which connector is active. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 14 11:27:45 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX tests? Message-ID: <201503141627.MAA05806@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [Teal deer: I'm looking for generic any-VAX MMU-hardware test code.] Some of you may recall that I've mentioned, a few times, that I've got a MicroVAX-II emulator I've been working on. I think it's most of the way there - seems to me I'm into the last 10% of the work which takes the second 90% of the time. :-) But when I netboot NetBSD and start to run it diskless, I get peculiar crashes which make me think I'm mis-emulating the MMU somehow. Basic operation seems to work fine - cd, ls, and the like - but under conditions the details of which I haven't pinned down yet, I get crashes like pid 65 (install), uid 0: exited on signal 11 (core not dumped, err = 14) panic: pmap_protect: outside P0LR Stopped in install at _pmap_protect+0xdf: movl $15, r8 db> I can reproduce it relatively reliably, but it takes about five minutes to do so. I'm trying to reduce the test case to something a bit more manageable, but, in the meantime, I also thought it might be worth asking after possible thorough test code. I have some test code, but it seems to be for bigger machines - 780, 8600, and the like. I searched for KA630 and I searched for MicroVAX (case-insensitive); the former gave no hits and the latter only two. One MicroVAX hit was a message in one test saying H-Floating instructions are not part of the MicroVAX instruction set, therefore tests 71 - 98 are not executed. The other was in a .hlp file, describing the use of the ATTACH command: 2 MicroVax DS> ATTACH Device type? LESI Device link? HUB Device name? DAA UDAIP? 772150 [...] Collectively, these make me think the tests I have probably predate the MicroVAX-II. I'll be trying to get the diagnostic supservisor netbooted, but it doesn't look designed for netbooting, and it's not clear to me that any of the tests are sufficiently generic to be of any use here. So, while I will be pursuing this on my own, I'd be interested to hear if anyone has any test code I might be able to get my hands on that's generic (or uV2-specific) and might indicate what's wrong in a useful way. (Useful to a simulator author, that is; "PCRB L from U248 not getting to U144, or U248/U144 bad" is not useful, whereas "translation not valid fault is pushing a partially incremented PC" is useful. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Mar 14 12:12:42 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 12:12:42 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <000001d05dab$d6599410$830cbc30$@classiccmp.org> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000001d05dab$d6599410$830cbc30$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20150314171242.GA10963@lonesome.com> On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 11:36:20AM -0500, Jay West wrote: > Data I/O 29B with Unipak2 Oh wow. You just threw me into a 1980-vintage time warp. Back in the day, we fought over who got to use them. mcl From leec2124 at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 12:18:12 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:18:12 -0700 Subject: DEC manuals: interest to scan it? In-Reply-To: <55045479.4060309@gmail.com> References: <55045479.4060309@gmail.com> Message-ID: HI Andrea - I've scanned for Al in the past and I'd suggest that you first go to bitsavers yourself and check if any of the list are already uploaded. If so, then you know you don;t have to scan those. That relieves you of waiting for Al, and I'll tell you he is a busy (busy busy) guy. ANything you can do to off-load him is a Good Thing. Lee C. On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 8:32 AM, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > I have the following manuals, I could scan them if not already available > somewhere. > Al, please could you check if you have all of them on bitsavers, or if you > need some parts to be rescanned? > > FORTRAN 77 > AD-L979A-T1 F77 LANGUAGE REFERENCE MANUAL > AD-1884D-T1 F77 USER GUIDE > AD-1874C-T1 F77 OBJECT TIME SYSTEM REFERENCE MANUAL > AA-JQ94A-TK F77 DOCUMENTATION SUPPLEMENT > > PDP11 FORTRAN > AA-1855D-TC FORTRAN LANGUAGE REFERENCE MANUAL > AA-1936F-TC FORTRAN USER GUIDE > > RSX-11M > AE-H653B-TK SOFTWARE PRODUCT DESCRIPTION > AA-2593M-TC INFORMATION DIRECTORY AND MASTER INDEX > AA-2573I-TC RELEASE NOTES > AA-W259F-TC UPDATE NOTES REV A > AA-L763B-TC INTRODUCTION TO RSX-11M > > AI-Y508B-TE GUIDE TO VAX/VMS FILE APPLICATIONS > > AA-D035D-TE FORTRAN USER GUIDE > AA-H953E-TE FORTRAN INSTALLATION GUIDE / RELEASE NOTES > > AA-KN06A-TE VAX/VMS RELEASE NOTES V4.6 > > AA-R429A-TE VAX11 DECGRAPH USER GUIDE > > AA-1749E-TC PDP11 COBOL > > AA-L672C-TC RSX-11M COMMAND LANGUAGE MANUAL > AA-L671A-TC RSX-11M BATCH AND QUEUE OPERATIONS MANUAL > AA-FD05A-TC INDIRECT COMMAND PROCEDURE MANUAL > > VT240 PROGRAMMER REFERENCE MANUAL VOLUME 1 > > AA-H625C-TC RSX-11M SYSTEM GENERATION AND INSTALLATION GUIDE > > AA-JK92A-TE INTRODUCTION TO DATABASE DEVELOPMENT > AA-93A-TE INTRODUCTION TO APPLICATION DEVELOPMENT > > AA-Y501A-TE GUIDE TO USING DCL AND COMMAND PROCEDURES ON VAX/VMS > > AI-Y516A-TE VAX/VMS MINI REFERENCE > > AA-FB84A-TE GUIDE TO CREATING MODULAR PROCEDURES ON VAX/VMS > > Andrea > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 14 12:30:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 10:30:29 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55045818.6030008@pico-systems.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> <002401d05e16$91875000$b495f000$@classiccmp.org> <55045818.6030008@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55047035.3050601@sydex.com> On 03/14/2015 08:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > My Xeltek Superpro/Z supports Lattice GAL 16, 18, 20 and 22 parts, as > well as PALCE. > Also, Microchip 93L, and a few Nat Semi GAL 16, 20 and 22 parts. > They don't even show Signetics as a manufacturer, and I didn't see any > 82S types there. ISTR that TI took over the line years back and re-christened it as SBP... parts. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks with me. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 14 12:50:25 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 17:50:25 -0000 Subject: DESQA Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b301d05e7f$59cbcb50$0d6361f0$@ntlworld.com> Oh dear! My wife keeps telling me I don't look properly, now I can see the jumper block as plain as day. Sorry about that! Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 14 March 2015 16:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DESQA Manual? > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > I picked up a DESQA recently which seems to be configured for thinwire > > rather than AUI. There is no external switch for it and I can't find a > > manual to tell me how to swap it to AUI. > > The M3127 DESQA boards that I have all have an obvious push button > externally accessible next to the BNC connector and there are externally visible > LED indicators adjacent to the BNC and AUI connectors to indicate which > connector is active. > > Those M3127 DESQA boards look like the version shown in the pictures for this > eBay listing: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/141321641194 > > It appears that there is an earlier version of the M3127 DESQA which does not > have that externally accessible push button. > > Does the M3127 DESQA board you have look like the version show in the > pictures for this eBay listing? > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221696083936 > > On that version it looks like there is a 10-way jumper block in the middle of the > board and THINWIRE / THICKWIRE legends screened on the board next to the > jumper block to indicate how it should be positioned to select the connector > type. It looks like there are externally visible LED indicators adjacent to the BNC > and AUI connectors to indicate which connector is active. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 14 13:37:53 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 18:37:53 -0000 Subject: DESQA Manual? In-Reply-To: <00b301d05e7f$59cbcb50$0d6361f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007801d05e69$ef174100$cd45c300$@ntlworld.com> <00b301d05e7f$59cbcb50$0d6361f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00b501d05e85$fbbbe200$f333a600$@ntlworld.com> Still, there is no DESQA manual online, if anyone has one scanned it would still be nice to have it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 14 March 2015 17:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DESQA Manual? > > Oh dear! My wife keeps telling me I don't look properly, now I can see the > jumper block as plain as day. Sorry about that! > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen > > Slick > > Sent: 14 March 2015 16:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DESQA Manual? > > > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 8:17 AM, Robert Jarratt > > wrote: > > > I picked up a DESQA recently which seems to be configured for > > > thinwire rather than AUI. There is no external switch for it and I > > > can't find a manual to tell me how to swap it to AUI. > > > > The M3127 DESQA boards that I have all have an obvious push button > > externally accessible next to the BNC connector and there are > > externally visible LED indicators adjacent to the BNC and AUI > > connectors to indicate which connector is active. > > > > Those M3127 DESQA boards look like the version shown in the pictures > > for this eBay listing: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/141321641194 > > > > It appears that there is an earlier version of the M3127 DESQA which > > does not have that externally accessible push button. > > > > Does the M3127 DESQA board you have look like the version show in the > > pictures for this eBay listing? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221696083936 > > > > On that version it looks like there is a 10-way jumper block in the > > middle of the board and THINWIRE / THICKWIRE legends screened on the > > board next to the jumper block to indicate how it should be positioned > > to select the connector type. It looks like there are externally > > visible LED indicators adjacent to the BNC and AUI connectors to indicate > which connector is active. From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 15:19:44 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 16:19:44 -0400 Subject: [HacDC:Blabber] Re: New Maryland BBS :P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Whoops. Misconfiguration. It really is up now at 410-734-6804. sorry for that :P On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Sorry to whoever just called. i'm still working on it. ;) > > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> Why 10bT ? I have regular TP and AUI Ethernet nic. :P >> >> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 5:35 PM, wrote: >> >>> After some downtime recently due to a hard drive failure, I've received a >>>> new ESDI drive! 30mb this time, but from a good source. Should be up >>>> again >>>> later tonight! >>>> >>> >>> You could always boot from a floppy disk with a 10baseT NIC, and then >>> mount a share on a linux machine that is running Samba (using Microsoft >>> WFW3.11 or something.) >>> >>> -- >>> Ethan O'Toole >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >> KB3HAG >> > > > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 15:23:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 14:23:10 -0600 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55047035.3050601@sydex.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <55039D7A.4030302@update.uu.se> <002401d05e16$91875000$b495f000$@classiccmp.org> <55045818.6030008@pico-systems.com> <55047035.3050601@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR that TI took over the line years back and re-christened it as SBP... > parts. Of course, my memory could be playing tricks with me. TI cloned some of the other vendor's popular programmable devices, but they didn't take over anyone else's line in that time frame. One of the most notable cases was TI offering equivalents to MMI PALs, which may have briefly had part numbers in TI's existing SBP (Schottky Bipolar PROM) family, but mostly were seen with the TIBPAL prefix. TI may or may not have had an agreement with MMI, but TI apparently had their own silicon designs, because the device programming specs were NOT compatible with MMI's, even though the non-programming functionality was identical. TI's bipolar PROMs originally had 74 series part numbers (e.g., 74S471), but they decided to make them a separate "SBP" family. That happened at roughly but not exactly the same time that TI switched the bipolar programmable devices from NiCr fuses to TiW for higher reliability (less fuse regrowth). IIRC, the new part numbers were SBP1nnn for NiCr and SPB2nnn for TiW. The later TI bipolar programmable devices such as PALs used the TiW fuse technology from the outset. From a1a96636 at telus.net Sat Mar 14 15:21:16 2015 From: a1a96636 at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 13:21:16 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <74F819C8-6977-4D86-9FD5-09A0966CEE58@telus.net> Actually the Andromeda Eprom Programmer handles almost all the early devices including reading the 1702, if you get the extra modules. I can burn 1702s if anyone needs that, however I do charge for that service. John -#)# > On Mar 13, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 03/13/2015 11:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like to ask >> for recommendations. >> >> >> >> The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common >> capability or not). > Yes, they all need this capability, as that's how you verify the write got all the bits > set correctly. > > I have a Logical Devices Allpro 88, with the ISA card that controls it, if that is > of any interest to anybody. I do NOT have a copy of the software for it. > > I use a Xeltek Superpro/Z, which supports most EPROMS going way back. > It supports the 2732, and may support some 16K EPROMS, too. You won't > find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to program. > > I doubt you will find anything with a serial interface. > > Jon > From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 20:02:52 2015 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 21:02:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for HP UX for an HP 9000/712 Message-ID: <5504DA3C.5010807@gmail.com> Hey all, Im looking for HP UX for my HP 9000/712 Anybody got a source, I cannot find anything and I am trying to get it back to its original glory Thanks Steve From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Mar 14 20:02:56 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 21:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <74F819C8-6977-4D86-9FD5-09A0966CEE58@telus.net> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55039417.1040105@pico-systems.com> <74F819C8-6977-4D86-9FD5-09A0966CEE58@telus.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Mar 2015, John Robertson wrote: > Actually the Andromeda Eprom Programmer handles almost all the early > devices including reading the 1702, if you get the extra modules. I can > burn 1702s if anyone needs that, however I do charge for that service. I'll second the recommendation for the Andromeda programmer. They sell bare boards and schematics if you want to build the various personality cards. I cobbled together the PROM programmer for mine and it works great. The only downside is setting up 20-odd jumpers for the various pinouts. I ended up building pre-wired plugs after a few rounds. -- From supervinx at libero.it Sun Mar 15 01:12:47 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 07:12:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for HP UX for an HP 9000/712 In-Reply-To: <5504DA3C.5010807@gmail.com> References: <5504DA3C.5010807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1426399967.2305.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno sab, 14/03/2015 alle 21.02 -0400, Steven Landon ha scritto: > Hey all, Im looking for HP UX for my HP 9000/712 > > Anybody got a source, I cannot find anything and I am trying to get it > back to its original glory > > Thanks > > Steve I surely have disk images of installed and running systems, but I should have also 10.x installation CDs. Tell me if it's OK and I'll post them somewhere. BTW, you can also install NeXtStep on that beast... http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum/HP/712/100/02/ Regards -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 15 02:34:56 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 20:34:56 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. Message-ID: The satisfaction of fixing a classic. For those interested what it was about and what was wrong, here are the details. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-13-trs-80-model1-L1-fix.htm Terry (Tez) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 15 02:53:33 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 07:53:33 -0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> That looks great, congratulations on getting it working again! I am mostly interested in DEC equipment, but the TRS-80 is one of the few micros I would like to have. I can't quite remember which model my school used to have, but I think it was a model I. You mention a technical reference which sounds really useful, is that online somewhere? I had a look on bitsavers and was surprised that there is nothing at all listed under Tandy or under Radio Shack. Manx lists some technical reference manuals, but not for the Model I. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry > Stewart > Sent: 15 March 2015 07:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. > > The satisfaction of fixing a classic. For those interested what it was about and > what was wrong, here are the details. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-13-trs-80-model1-L1- > fix.htm > > Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 15 03:08:51 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:08:51 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: >You mention a technical reference which sounds really useful, is that online somewhere? Hi Robert, Thanks for those nice comments. From memory I got that manual from here: http://akhara.com/trs-80/docs/model1/ Terry (Tez) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 15 03:10:44 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:10:44 -0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: References: <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010f01d05ef7$8950eea0$9bf2cbe0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks, grabbed the manual just in case I ever get a model I. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Terry > Stewart > Sent: 15 March 2015 08:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. > > >You mention a technical reference which sounds really useful, is that > online somewhere? > > Hi Robert, > > Thanks for those nice comments. From memory I got that manual from here: > http://akhara.com/trs-80/docs/model1/ > > Terry (Tez) From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Mar 15 00:23:09 2015 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 00:23:09 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b1/Unix PC Floppy controller help Message-ID: <5505173D.7020702@tdh.com> I'm working on one of these systems, and have run across a floppy controller issue. Everything else in the system is functioning fine, including booting from HDD. However, I have a problem where the floppy drive has power, physically works, and connected properly etc, but what I find is the drive/controller will recognize a disk is put in, click, then nothing. Just due to the way I'm working on this, I haven't been able to test any signals at the controller IC (WD2797), but I have completely swapped the IC with a different one just to check. Now, the question is, without looking at signals, what is the probability the lack of any action is could be a problem with the input to the IC (write, ready, track0, index, write protect, density signals) or with the output signals (step, direction, DRQ IRQ)? There are tri-state buffers (74LS244-input side, 74LS240-output side) on these signals, and I'm thinking one of these are misbehaving, but trying to determine which. Or could it be something completely different? Or any good suggestions on troubleshooting this? From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Mar 15 09:44:24 2015 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:44:24 +0000 Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1426430664.44522.YahooMailBasic@web171806.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> [apologies for abuse of list protocol, bit pushed for time, crappy webmail client lazily replying to digest... usual excuses] In the absence of other suggestions so far: Brief background: Real VAXes had real diagnostics. MicroVAXes had diagnostics in ROM, or if that wasn't sufficient, the MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor was available. Readers of the list may know where to get hold of a copy of the MDM; a quick search doesn't find an obvious source. Moving on: Are you aware of EK-O19AE-SG-005_MicroVAX_Troubleshooting_and_Diagnostics_May89.pdf or similar? Bitsavers is where I found it, e.g. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/vax/3800/EK-O19AE-SG-005_MicroVAX_Troubleshooting_and_Diagnostics_May89.pdf Does your emulator have a console ROM like the real thing? Does it have any tests in it? The KA630 ROM diags are covered briefly in Chapter 5 of the KA630 Users Guide, e.g. at http://www.vaxination.ca/vms/microvax/EK-KA630-UG-001_FEB86.PDF A VAX is a VAX, to a large extent, so generic diagnostics (not CPU-specific) might be helpful in some cases. The detailed innards of memory management may not be one of those cases, though there are likely some CPU-independent parts too. Have a read of the manual(s) above if you haven't done so already, see if you can get hold of a downloadable MDM image, report back? Best of luck. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 15 10:38:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner Message-ID: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Thanks to everyone who responded! I decided, after a look at the manuals, and on eBay, to go with the 23B/Unipak2B combo; it seems like it is likely to cover most things I want to do, and was available, something I could hook up to, etc, etc. A few points: > From: Jon Elson > You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to > program. I checked, and the 29B/Unipak2B combo does not support them. Does anyone know if DEC used 1702s in anything PDP-11? Are there any other early PROMs I'm likely to run in PDP-11's that are also going to be difficult to deal with? > From: Roe Peterson >> What about the modern TL866? Anybody has experience with these? > They are fairly decent units, but can not handle 68764/68766 EPROMS, > which you might need for pdp11 systems. Well, I don't know about for PDP-11s, but the very first thing I'm going to do with it is blow EPROMs for a diagnostic ROM pack for my Tek 1240's, and those take 68764/68766's (or equivalent). So that one was out, for me. (BTW, what's the difference between the two? Looking at the data sheets very quickly, they seemed to be pretty much the same?) > From: Chuck Guzis > Do you need program the old 3-rail EPROMs? (e.g. 2704, 2708)? I have no idea what PROMs I will, over time, want to blow. I know of a couple of applications right off the bat (BDV11s, which I guess take a large range of things), and the afore-mentioned Tek 1240 ROM pack, but in the long run, I don't really know what I'll want to do with it. That's why I said I was looking for something that could do a wide range of early stuff. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 15 10:46:46 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:46:46 -0400 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> > On Mar 15, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > ...A few points: > >> From: Jon Elson > >> You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to >> program. 48 volts, according to a 1702A datasheet I just dug up with Google. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 10:53:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 10:53:33 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> On 03/15/2015 10:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 15, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> ...A few points: >> >>> From: Jon Elson >>> You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to >>> program. > 48 volts, according to a 1702A datasheet I just dug up with Google. > > OK, but the device programmer I had for them had, as best I remember, and 80 V power supply. Seems a bit high, and it HAD been a while, but that's what I remember. So, yes, the voltage at the chip was lower. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 15 11:06:53 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:06:53 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> References: , <010601d05ef5$22b6ace0$682406a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > You mention a technical reference which sounds really useful, is that online somewhere? I had a look on > bitsavers and was surprised that there is nothing at all listed under Tandy or under Radio Shack. Manx lists > some technical reference manuals, but not for the Model I. There are a lot of TRS-80 technical manuals and/or service manuals (they contain much the same useful info like schematics and PCB layouts) on http://www.archive.org. Search for 'radio shack hardware' (no quotes). I am pretty sure I got the M1 manual from there (I have an original on paper too, the M1 was my second computer and even back then I wanted schematics!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 15 11:13:28 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:13:28 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The satisfaction of fixing a classic. For those interested what it was > about and what was wrong, here are the details. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-13-trs-80-model1-L1-fix.htm As regards the monitors, the older one (the one you now have on the Level 1 unit) is a converted RCA portable TV. The exact convertion depends on the mains voltage. You see the original TV was designed for 115V (US) mains and had a hot chassis (not isolated from the mains). In all cases the tuners, sound section, speaker, etc were removed. Then : 115V model : The video IF PCB was replaced by an opto-isolated video input board (so the TRS-80 was isolated from the mains). The input side of this circuit took 5V from the TRS-80 PSU. 230V model : Since the TV chassis was designed for 115V input only, it needed a step-down transformer for 230V mains input. An _isolating_ transformer was fitted inside the monitor case so the chassis was now insolated. The video IF PCB was replaced by a simple 1-transistor (I think, maybe 2 transistors) video amplifier. This model just needs composite input from the TRS-80, the 5V supply is not used. The later one (which I have never seen inside) was sold in the UK with a moulded green plastic cover over the entire front, with holes for the knobs to poke through. This gave a 'green screen' display using the normal TV white CRT. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 15 11:18:11 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:18:11 +0000 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to > > program. > > I checked, and the 29B/Unipak2B combo does not support them. Does anyone > know if DEC used 1702s in anything PDP-11? I don't know about the PDP11, but the Omnibus (PDP8/e , etc) EPROM board uses them. They are soldered to the board with jumper blocks on the top connectors to connect them to the Omnibus interface circuit. For programming you connected the programmer (presumably with a special cable) to said top connectors in place of the jumpers. The only thing I have that will program 1702As (which, IIRC are not the same programming spec as the original 1702) is my Intellec MCS8i. > Are there any other early PROMs I'm likely to run in PDP-11's that are also > going to be difficult to deal with? They did use the 3-rail 2708 quite a bit. Many modern programmers can't handle that one, I have no idea if the 29B can. Not EPROMs, but the early PLAs like the 82S100 turn up in some PDP11 stuff (11/44 I think is full of them). -tony -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 11:50:20 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:50:20 +0100 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2015-03-15 17:18 GMT+01:00 tony duell : > > > > You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 > V to > > > program. > > > > I checked, and the 29B/Unipak2B combo does not support them. Does anyone > > know if DEC used 1702s in anything PDP-11? > > I don't know about the PDP11, but the Omnibus (PDP8/e , etc) EPROM board > uses them. They are > soldered to the board with jumper blocks on the top connectors to connect > them to the Omnibus > interface circuit. For programming you connected the programmer > (presumably with a special cable) > to said top connectors in place of the jumpers. > I think that you mean this card: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-8-e The programmer is a rack mounted unit with integrated connectors where you plug in the board. The programmer has a fan to cool the board while programming. I have said programmer but I am unsure about how to connect it to anything and unfortunately the lid of one of the 1702 is missing. Otherwise it is a nice board. > The only thing I have that will program 1702As (which, IIRC are not the > same programming spec as > the original 1702) is my Intellec MCS8i. > > > Are there any other early PROMs I'm likely to run in PDP-11's that are > also > > going to be difficult to deal with? > > They did use the 3-rail 2708 quite a bit. Many modern programmers can't > handle that one, I have > no idea if the 29B can. > > Not EPROMs, but the early PLAs like the 82S100 turn up in some PDP11 stuff > (11/44 I think is full of them). > > -tony > > -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 12:32:26 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:32:26 +0100 Subject: DEC manuals: interest to scan it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5505C22A.2090704@gmail.com> Hello, checking on bitsavers for bare presence is not a problem at all... I should assume that all the documents widely available on other sites (like manx or related links) are also on bitsavers? I mean, searching on bitsavers and not founding a specific file there is enough to assume that the file is unavailable and should be scanned? Anyway, I would need some advice about the way to transfer scanned files (huge unprocessed/uncompressed or post-processed to bitmap with level/contrast adaption) to the archive. Andrea From lproven at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 12:33:56 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:33:56 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 March 2015 at 08:34, Terry Stewart wrote: > The satisfaction of fixing a classic. For those interested what it was > about and what was wrong, here are the details. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-13-trs-80-model1-L1-fix.htm A good read, Terry -- thanks, I enjoyed that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 13:13:54 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 19:13:54 +0100 Subject: A rather nice Atari Falcon but possible at an ambitious price... Message-ID: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Atari-Falcon-030-14-Mb-Super-Nice-Internal-External-Harddisk-Cubase-Very-Rare-/331494015021?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_146&hash=item4d2e95402d -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From vlad.stamate at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 13:43:07 2015 From: vlad.stamate at gmail.com (Vlad Stamate) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 11:43:07 -0700 Subject: Radioshack documentation Message-ID: Hi all, Now that RS is going down is there any effort to preserve the information that is on their website, which I assume will go down at some point (I could be wrong though)? Apologies if this has been discussed before. Things like this for example (pinouts, specs, drivers etc) http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=25-3539&Name=Tandy%20Laptops%20and%20Portable%20Computers&Reuse=N Regards, Vlad. From cctalk at fahimi.net Sun Mar 15 14:12:26 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 12:12:26 -0700 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> Message-ID: <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> > Yes, it is an external tape drive that is very similar to the internal > drive. I'm guessing it was touted as doubling the "mass storage" for > the > 5100 but it was probably used for backups. Unfortunately, I don't have > any tapes or documentation and thee is supposed to be a supplemental > tape that had the utility to make backup tapes. That is very cool. As far as tapes are concerned any std. DC300 or DC600 tape should work. However, make sure to check for gooified insides on both tape drive mechanisms. I did some googlefu and found the following which may help you: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/5106.html Not much but a starting point. > > I'll take some more pics when I clean it up. I've only ever seen a > picture of the front online. That would be great. Even if you can't get it up and running at least we would have some records for posterity. Congrats on your find! Those machines are rare and when they come up they always sell for way more than I am ready to spend! -Ali From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 14:51:49 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:51:49 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5505E2D5.6020901@pico-systems.com> On 03/15/2015 10:53 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/15/2015 10:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa >>> wrote: >>> >>> ...A few points: >>> >>>> From: Jon Elson >>>> You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, >>>> they needed 80 V to >>>> program. >> 48 volts, according to a 1702A datasheet I just dug up >> with Google. >> >> > OK, but the device programmer I had for them had, as best > I remember, and 80 V > power supply. Seems a bit high, and it HAD been a while, > but that's what I remember. > So, yes, the voltage at the chip was lower. > > Jon > From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 14:54:11 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:54:11 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5505E363.8000106@pico-systems.com> Here's a link to a photo of a Logical Devices Allpro 88 programmer with the ISA plug-in card. I do NOT have the software for this unit. The socket deck on top unplugs, and other sockets can be plugged in. http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6989.JPG If anybody wants it, $25 plus shipping and it is yours. (I'm in the St. Louis, MO area, ZIP 63122.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 14:58:49 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 14:58:49 -0500 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <54FF1908.9010202@pico-systems.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> <54FF1908.9010202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5505E479.3010103@pico-systems.com> I have two more items. One is a 9-slot DEC backplane, Backplane Assy 5412233 http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6985.JPG http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6986.JPG Also, I have an MDB card cage with backplane, 8 slot, marked MLSI chassis backplane #40328. http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6987.JPG http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6988.JPG If anybody is interested, $10 plus shipping (each item) and you can have it. I'm in the St. Louis, MO area, ZIP 63122) Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Mar 15 15:21:29 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 13:21:29 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-15, at 8:53 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/15/2015 10:46 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 15, 2015, at 11:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>> ...A few points: >>> >>>> From: Jon Elson >>>> You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices, they needed 80 V to >>>> program. >> 48 volts, according to a 1702A datasheet I just dug up with Google. While the datasheet says a program voltage of 48V (actually ?48V), that's with another of the chips supplies at +12V, so there's a voltage difference at the chip of 60V. Different programmer designs can shift the voltages different ways relative to GND. A (period) programmer design I've looked at uses 0, +48, +60; while if one is looking at the datasheet it's ?48, 0, +12. >> > OK, but the device programmer I had for them had, as best I remember, and 80 V > power supply. Seems a bit high, and it HAD been a while, but that's what I remember. > So, yes, the voltage at the chip was lower. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Mar 15 13:12:26 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:12:26 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3b1/Unix PC Floppy controller help In-Reply-To: <5505173D.7020702@tdh.com> References: <5505173D.7020702@tdh.com> Message-ID: > > I'm working on one of these systems, and have run across a floppy > controller issue. Everything else in the system is functioning fine, > including booting from HDD. However, I have a problem where the floppy > drive has power, physically works, and connected properly etc, but what > I find is the drive/controller will recognize a disk is put in, click, > then nothing. Just due to the way I'm working on this, I haven't been > able to test any signals at the controller IC (WD2797), but I have > completely swapped the IC with a different one just to check. > > Now, the question is, without looking at signals, what is the > probability the lack of any action is could be a problem with the input > to the IC (write, ready, track0, index, write protect, density signals) > or with the output signals (step, direction, DRQ IRQ)? There are > tri-state buffers (74LS244-input side, 74LS240-output side) on these > signals, and I'm thinking one of these are misbehaving, but trying to > determine which. Or could it be something completely different? Or any > good suggestions on troubleshooting this? Yes : Why do you insist on doing it blind? Seriously I do not see how you cna troubleshoot any part of a classic computer without observing signals. The problem could be any one of a number of things (which I will come to in a moment), unless you start making measurements there is no real way to determine what is going on. Troubleshooting _should_ consist of knowing what the unit should be doing, determining (by measurement) what it is doing and working out what could cause the differences. At this point, do you know if the problem is the controller or the floppy drive? In the case of the latter, have you tried to format, write and read a scratch disk? If it will do that, it points to head alignment problems. If not, the fault could still be in the drive. I assume the disk is rotating but have you checked this? Do the heads move at all? If you start with the heads near the spindle do they restore to cylinder 0 when you try to boot from the disk? The problem might be a fault in the head or read amplifier -- even something as simple as a dirty head On the controller side, given it's a 2797, I'd try asserting the test input and seeing what the setup waveforms look like. This will detect a serious failure of the data separator part of the IC or associated components. At this stage don't adjust anything though. Does the CPU try to access the FDC chip (is CS/ being asserted)? Is there activity on the other bus lines (maybe a bus buffer has failed and there is no data bus at the FDC chip). Does the FDC ever assert DRQ or IRQ? Does the appropriate bit of the system respond? Are the floppy drive signals (in particular Read Data) getting to the chip? Without more information as to what it is actually doing I don't think you have a chance to logically troubleshoot this. -tony From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Mar 15 16:55:53 2015 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:55:53 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3b1/Unix PC Floppy controller help In-Reply-To: References: <5505173D.7020702@tdh.com> Message-ID: <5505FFE9.1060609@tdh.com> On 3/15/2015 1:12 PM, tony duell wrote: > Yes : Why do you insist on doing it blind? Just a limitation of where and how I'm working on it. I figure I'd try to start with the basics. The machine is a pain to work on without a lot of space or dismantling it to a point I could get that accomplished properly. Also, limits of what test equipment I have to work with at the moment, as in a multimeter at best. > Seriously I do not see how you cna troubleshoot any part of a classic computer without > observing signals. I agree it's not the best approach to it. It is going blind at it, but at the same time, I want to make some educated guesses. At this point, do you know if the problem is the controller or the floppy drive? I've swapped the controller IC itself, and also the floppy drive with known working ones, and same behavior, which leads me to believe it's something just slightly upstream or downstream from the IC. The disk does rotate, seems to recognize a disk in the drive, but no seeking or other movement. > > On the controller side, given it's a 2797, I'd try asserting the test input and seeing what the > setup waveforms look like. This will detect a serious failure of the data separator part of the > IC or associated components. At this stage don't adjust anything though. As far as I can tell actually the IC itself is operating properly, which leads me to believe it's either not receiving the proper signals into it, or able to send the proper signals out through the tri-state buffers, leading me to this discussion. > Does the CPU try to access the FDC chip (is CS/ being asserted)? Is there activity on the > other bus lines (maybe a bus buffer has failed and there is no data bus at the FDC chip). The general data bus and address bus appears to be fine, since the hard drive portion is working, which again leads me to think it's the signal line buffers leading in or out. Obviously if the signal to move the drive isn't working, then the drive wouldn't move. At the same time, if it never receives a signal to operate, then it'll also not move. > Does > the FDC ever assert DRQ or IRQ? Does the appropriate bit of the system respond? Are the > floppy drive signals (in particular Read Data) getting to the chip? This might be easy enough to test, and I'll try that. Now, thinking about it, if I can test the input and output of the buffers at the same time, I could see if the right things pass, and that could also be doable. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Mar 15 17:05:29 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) Message-ID: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [Seen thanks to off-list assistance - thank you!] > Brief background: Real VAXes had real diagnostics. MicroVAXes had diagnostic$ I'm fairly sure the MDM is not what I have, then. > Moving on: Are you aware of > EK-O19AE-SG-005_MicroVAX_Troubleshooting_and_Diagnostics_May89.pdf I wasn't. I picked up a copy and it turns out to be unreadable for me; the ghostscript I have says "Unable to process JBIG2Decode data. Page will be missing data.". Modern Ghostscript is no longer suitable for open-source use, so I'm looking for alternatives, either other PostScript renderers or something to replace the JBIG2Decode code in the version I have. I have a few leads, but even in the best of outcomes it will take time. > Does your emulator have a console ROM like the real thing? Does it have any $ Yes. It is an image of the ROM from a real KA630 I have. In particular, it has the same set of tests the real thing has. The simulator passes all of them, as far as I can tell. I have a copy of EK-KA630-UG-001 and have scanned it, and read it multiple times. As far as I can tell the tests there are all run at startup, and they all pass. If there's any way to run any other tests from the ROM, I don't know what it is. I'll also see if I can find that MDM thing, though if you couldn't find a copy it seems unlikely I will. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 15 17:27:58 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 17:27:58 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <004701d05f6f$4b109190$e131b4b0$@classiccmp.org> I suggested the data I/O 29B originally, so obviously I'm a fan. To whomever suggested the Andromeda unit; I had never heard of that one and it DOES support the early bipolar proms that I frequently encounter with pdp11, HP, etc. stuff (with an additional adapter). I'm impressed, it looks like a really nice unit. That being said, I think it's pretty pricey. $299 for the base unit, plus $179 to do the 82Sxxx bipolars and I'm basically at $500. Plus it doesn't have the wonderful retro keypad of the 29b ;) I don't know... if I had to do it all over again (given that a data I/O 29B with unipak2 seems to go for about $400+ on ebay), I'm not sure which I'd go with. The Andromeda sure is nice... but I already have the 29B :) J From steven at malikoff.com Sun Mar 15 17:30:13 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:30:13 +1000 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: <5505E479.3010103@pico-systems.com> References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> <54FF1908.9010202@pico-systems.com> <5505E479.3010103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Hi Jon, If no-one else has taken them, I'd like both if that's ok? If that's alright by you, I would need the postage to Brisbane, Australia just in a small box, lowest-rate airmail would be fine. I can pay you via PayPal, Regards, Steve Malikoff. Brisbane, Australia ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Small DEC cardcage with backplane From: "Jon Elson" Date: Mon, March 16, 2015 5:58 am To: General at classiccmp.org "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have two more items. One is a 9-slot DEC backplane, > Backplane Assy 5412233 > > http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6985.JPG > http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6986.JPG > > Also, I have an MDB card cage with backplane, 8 slot, marked > MLSI chassis backplane #40328. > > http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6987.JPG > http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6988.JPG > > If anybody is interested, $10 plus shipping (each item) and > you can have it. > I'm in the St. Louis, MO area, ZIP 63122) > > Jon > From steven at malikoff.com Sun Mar 15 17:46:18 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:46:18 +1000 Subject: Small DEC cardcage with backplane In-Reply-To: References: <54F9D5C9.2050300@pico-systems.com> <20150306173030.GA2521@Update.UU.SE> <54FC931C.70504@pico-systems.com> <54FF1908.9010202@pico-systems.com> <5505E479.3010103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6a3dadf1178cee32b82724a1571e3394.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Facepalm.... my sincere apology to this great mailinglist I only recently joined - In my extreme haste I forgot to edit the 'reply to' to send my reply to Jon directly, and it appears it went to the list. Please disregard it, I've only done that once before in my 29 years on the net :( - Steve. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 15 18:36:02 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 16:36:02 -0700 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <5505E363.8000106@pico-systems.com> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> <5505E363.8000106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55061762.4060206@sbcglobal.net> On 3/15/2015 12:54 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Here's a link to a photo of a Logical Devices Allpro 88 programmer > with the > ISA plug-in card. I do NOT have the software for this unit. The socket > deck on top unplugs, and other sockets can be plugged in. > > http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6989.JPG > > If anybody wants it, $25 plus shipping and it is yours. > (I'm in the St. Louis, MO area, ZIP 63122.) > > Jon > The software is available on their site at: http://www.logicaldevices.com/download2.htm Bob -- Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I've been practising it for years. -Prince Philip From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 18:59:12 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:59:12 -0500 Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> On 03/15/2015 05:05 PM, Mouse wrote: > [Seen thanks to off-list assistance - thank you!] > >> Brief background: Real VAXes had real diagnostics. MicroVAXes had diagnostic$ > I'm pretty sure there was a TK-50 diagnostics tape (I never had one, but saw the DEC techs use them). There may also have been floppies in the very early MicroVAX days. There was a set of CPU diags on floppies that came with our first 780. I think we also had a set of additional diagnostics on 9-track tape if the CPU was fully operational. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 15 19:00:38 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 19:00:38 -0500 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55061762.4060206@sbcglobal.net> References: <20150315153825.7313518C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <741F1EFA-8DF0-453C-9E8E-6F51BDA6DE85@comcast.net> <5505AAFD.8040206@pico-systems.com> <5505E363.8000106@pico-systems.com> <55061762.4060206@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <55061D26.4020901@pico-systems.com> On 03/15/2015 06:36 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 3/15/2015 12:54 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> Here's a link to a photo of a Logical Devices Allpro 88 >> programmer with the >> ISA plug-in card. I do NOT have the software for this >> unit. The socket >> deck on top unplugs, and other sockets can be plugged in. >> >> http://pico-systems.com/images/102_6989.JPG >> >> If anybody wants it, $25 plus shipping and it is yours. >> (I'm in the St. Louis, MO area, ZIP 63122.) >> >> Jon >> > The software is available on their site at: > http://www.logicaldevices.com/download2.htm Oh, cool! Thanks for looking this up. Now, it just needs somebody who wants it enough and has a machine with ISA slots. Jon From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Mar 15 18:49:54 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 23:49:54 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:05:29 -0400 (EDT)" <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01PJNKZTZQ1G0004E1@beyondthepale.ie> > > > Moving on: Are you aware of > > EK-O19AE-SG-005_MicroVAX_Troubleshooting_and_Diagnostics_May89.pdf > > I wasn't. I picked up a copy and it turns out to be unreadable for me; > the ghostscript I have says "Unable to process JBIG2Decode data. Page > will be missing data.". Modern Ghostscript is no longer suitable for > open-source use, so I'm looking for alternatives, either other > PostScript renderers or something to replace the JBIG2Decode code in > the version I have. I have a few leads, but even in the best of > outcomes it will take time. > I ran across similar difficulties using a very old version of xpdf on VMS. A less old version of xpdf (v3.02) worked for me. I didn't try that specific file but I used to have problems with files containing JBIG2Decode data and I haven't seen these problems since using v3.02. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Mar 15 19:42:34 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:42:34 +1300 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 Level 1 repair. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's another one on a machine I got in the same haul. I would almost be embarrassed to call this one a repair as it didn't take much effort. I'm pleased to have an original variant of this machine though. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-14-s80-mk1-fix.htm It's got an interesting EPROM extension to ROM which I'm finding out more about (see the DISQUS comments at the end). Terry On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 6:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 March 2015 at 08:34, Terry Stewart wrote: > > The satisfaction of fixing a classic. For those interested what it was > > about and what was wrong, here are the details. > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-03-13-trs-80-model1-L1-fix.htm > > > A good read, Terry -- thanks, I enjoyed that. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From bqt at update.uu.se Sun Mar 15 19:54:26 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 01:54:26 +0100 Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> References: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550629C2.5020608@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 00:59, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/15/2015 05:05 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [Seen thanks to off-list assistance - thank you!] >> >>> Brief background: Real VAXes had real diagnostics. MicroVAXes had >>> diagnostic$ >> > I'm pretty sure there was a TK-50 diagnostics tape (I never had one, but > saw the DEC > techs use them). There may also have been floppies in the very early > MicroVAX > days. That would be the MDM. And yes, I think it existed for both RX50 and TK50, but I've only used the TK50 version myself. I still have the TK50, but I wonder if my TK50 drive is operational... I can't remember how much CPU diagnostics is on that tape. My recollection is that it's more about testing peripherials, but there should be some basic tests in there as far as I remember. > There was a set of CPU diags on floppies that came with our first 780. > I think > we also had a set of additional diagnostics on 9-track tape if the CPU > was fully operational. That won't help. This would be the diagnostic supervisor, which do not run on MicroVAXen. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From matt at 9track.net Sun Mar 15 20:26:25 2015 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 01:26:25 +0000 Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> References: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55063141.1070708@9track.net> On 15/03/2015 23:59, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/15/2015 05:05 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [Seen thanks to off-list assistance - thank you!] >> >>> Brief background: Real VAXes had real diagnostics. MicroVAXes had >>> diagnostic$ >> > I'm pretty sure there was a TK-50 diagnostics tape (I never had one, > but saw the DEC > techs use them). There may also have been floppies in the very early > MicroVAX > days. > > There was a set of CPU diags on floppies that came with our first > 780. I think > we also had a set of additional diagnostics on 9-track tape if the CPU > was fully operational. > > Jon > Here are the RX50 and TK50 versions of the MicroVAX II customer diagnostics: http://www.9track.net/vax/mv2diag.zip This includes the following media: BL-GL3AG-DN - MVII DIAG CUST RX50 #1 BL-GL4AG-DN - MVII DIAG CUST RX50 #2 BL-GM2AG-DN - MVII DIAG CUST RX50 #3 BL-GM9AE-DN - MVII DIAG CUST RX50 #4 BL-FI50A-DN - MVII DIAG CUST RX50 #5 BL-GNRAA-DN - MICROVAX II MACROVERIFY(CUST) AQ-GL5AE-DN - MVII DIAG CUST TK50 I used them when I added the MicroVAX II to Simh a few years ago. I had some problems running them but that was largely due to the fact I didn't implement memory parity, serial port loopback and other non-essential features. I guess you have these though if you are able to pass all the startup diagnostics. If it helps at all, my code is in the main Simh repository: https://github.com/simh/simh Look for the vax630*.* files Matt From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 15 20:28:01 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 18:28:01 -0700 Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: <550629C2.5020608@update.uu.se> References: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> <550629C2.5020608@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > That would be the MDM. And yes, I think it existed for both RX50 and TK50, > but I've only used the TK50 version myself. > > I still have the TK50, but I wonder if my TK50 drive is operational... I have a TK50 tape image of MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor, Release 136, Version V4.7 I forget were I found that tape image. There are release notes for a newer version which I do not have, MicroVAX Diagnostic Monitor (MDM), Release 139, Version 5.0. http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd1/vax/pk29ete.pdf According to those release notes that version was also available on CD. I'd like to find an image of that CD. It is supposed to contain a MDMNET.SYS image which can be used to boot the MDM diagnostics from an InfoServer, which could be pretty useful. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Mar 15 20:58:05 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2015 21:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX tests? (Mouse) In-Reply-To: <55063141.1070708@9track.net> References: <201503152205.SAA29233@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <55061CD0.1080701@pico-systems.com> <55063141.1070708@9track.net> Message-ID: <201503160158.VAA20276@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Here are the RX50 and TK50 versions of the MicroVAX II customer > diagnostics: Ooh, thank you! Thank you very much. > I used them when I added the MicroVAX II to Simh a few years ago. I > had some problems running them but that was largely due to the fact I > didn't implement memory parity, serial port loopback and other > non-essential features. I guess you have these though if you are > able to pass all the startup diagnostics. Yes; those are both things I simulate. (I also had to simulate the instruction prefetch buffer; it turns out the KA630 ROM code depends on being able to execute out of the prefetch buffer briefly.) > If it helps at all, my code is in the main Simh repository: > https://github.com/simh/simh > Look for the vax630*.* files I suspect my issue, whatever it is, is not KA630-specific, in which case the KA630-specific files from SIMH won't help. Still, it can hardly hurt to look. Hmm, perhaps I could rip the emulation core out of SIMH and run it in lock-step parallel with mine, to see where they diverge. I wonder how hard that would be to do...if I can't find anything more promising I'll have a look at it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 07:40:22 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 06:40:22 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: Was the J11 chipset (11/73, 83, and 93) the only qbus processor with separate instruction and data space? And did 2.9BSD ever run without it? Thanks. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 07:43:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:43:55 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 13:40, Roe Peterson wrote: > Was the J11 chipset (11/73, 83, and 93) the only qbus processor with separate instruction and data space? And did 2.9BSD ever run without it? Yes, the J11 is the only chipset that have split I&D space. All other I&D space processors were made with several boards. And yes, as far as I know, 2.9BSD should be able to run on a J11. I don't remember if it was capable of taking advantage of split I&D space, but I think it was. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 07:45:11 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:45:11 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 13:43, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-16 13:40, Roe Peterson wrote: >> Was the J11 chipset (11/73, 83, and 93) the only qbus processor with >> separate instruction and data space? And did 2.9BSD ever run without it? > > Yes, the J11 is the only chipset that have split I&D space. All other > I&D space processors were made with several boards. > > And yes, as far as I know, 2.9BSD should be able to run on a J11. I > don't remember if it was capable of taking advantage of split I&D space, > but I think it was. Doh! Misunderstood the last question... As far as running 2.9BSD without split I&D space, I've definitely read about it being able. I think it was mentioned somewhere, that this was the last version known to be able to do this. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 16 08:03:55 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:03:55 +0000 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5506D4BB.6050601@dunnington.plus.com> On 16/03/2015 12:45, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-16 13:43, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-03-16 13:40, Roe Peterson wrote: >>> Was the J11 chipset (11/73, 83, and 93) the only qbus processor with >>> separate instruction and data space? And did 2.9BSD ever run without >>> it? > As far as running 2.9BSD without split I&D space, I've definitely read > about it being able. I think it was mentioned somewhere, that this was > the last version known to be able to do this. AFAIK, that's correct - 2.9BSD doesn't need split I&D, but 2.11BSD does. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 16 08:17:47 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:17:47 -0500 Subject: equipment available Message-ID: <007001d05feb$98f10530$cad30f90$@classiccmp.org> 3 lowboy racks: Rack1: Vax 11/750 Rack2: Cipher (looks like a F880), and some hard drives appear to be present Rack3: DecTalk and a VME 68030 system "stuffed with boards" Intonation is "Free to a good home". Location is just north of Boston, MA Contact me off-list if interested. Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 16 08:29:14 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:29:14 -0500 Subject: equipment available In-Reply-To: <007001d05feb$98f10530$cad30f90$@classiccmp.org> References: <007001d05feb$98f10530$cad30f90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007801d05fed$329d6c90$97d845b0$@classiccmp.org> This batch has been claimed.....wow, that was fast :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Monday, March 16, 2015 8:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: equipment available 3 lowboy racks: Rack1: Vax 11/750 Rack2: Cipher (looks like a F880), and some hard drives appear to be present Rack3: DecTalk and a VME 68030 system "stuffed with boards" Intonation is "Free to a good home". Location is just north of Boston, MA Contact me off-list if interested. Best, J From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Mon Mar 16 08:32:27 2015 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:32:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150313163448.DCBD218C0EE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2017510748.401624.1426512747531.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> There are several BP-1200 units on EBay for in the $200-250 range "or best offer".? I'm thinking you could pick one up for less than $200. While the BP-1200's do have the drawback of no longer being supported, the software is still available for download from the BPM Micro ftp site (BP Micro changed their name to BPM micro a few years back).? These programmers will program just about any 5V part out there.? They are rock solid and are built to last.? One of these with a 48-pn socket will cover just about any vintage computing application except, as mentioned elsewhere, the 1702/1702A. Compared with the cheap Chinese programmers, this has the disadvantage of only programming 5V parts, and parts are no longer being added. It requires a parallel port rather than a USB port.? It has the advantage of a truly comprehensive list of 5V parts, including the bipolar PROMS, etc.? And it will last forever. The Data I/O Unisite and 3900 series is still supported and there is an excellent support group on Yahoo Groups.? These do tend to be more expensive, as are the adapters, but these are also built like tanks.? They have the advantage of having all the software on board (and someone developed a DIY hard disk interface, so upgrading is not terribly expensive).? They only require a serial terminal or terminal emulator and a serial port (a USB-serial adapter will do.) The Xeltek's also look very versatile, and are supported, but not cheap. Dave On Friday, March 13, 2015 11:34 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: So, I need to add a PROM burner to my collection of stuff, and I'd like to ask for recommendations. I'm looking for something that's easy to find on eBay, not _too_ expensive, and can handle (via the appropriate adapters, which should also be relatively easy to find) a very wide range of old PROMs/EPROMs from back in the day. (I.e. ability to support modern chips is not really an issue.) The ability to read them would be a real plus (no idea if that's a common capability or not). Serial interface preferred, but I could work with parallel (again, no idea what was usual). Thanks in advance for any insight! ? ? ? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 08:34:43 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:34:43 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Doh! Misunderstood the last question... > As far as running 2.9BSD without split I&D space, I've definitely read about > it being able. I think it was mentioned somewhere, that this was the last > version known to be able to do this. I have run 2.9BSD on a real 11/24 (F-11, no split I&D). -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 16 08:58:39 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150316135839.ACD5818C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > 2.9BSD doesn't need split I&D, but 2.11BSD does. Doesn't 2.11 also need Supervisor mode (at least, for the networking code)? Of course, there is not (AFAICR) any machine with split I&D but not Supervisor, so the question above is purely intellectual, not of practical consequence. (Unless you have an 11/xx with an Able ENABLE board! :-) Noel From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Mar 16 09:12:40 2015 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:12:40 +0000 Subject: DEC manuals: interest to scan it? In-Reply-To: <5505C22A.2090704@gmail.com> References: <5505C22A.2090704@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd start by searching (by part number) using Manx: http://manx.classiccmp.org/search.php If a manual is available on the net, then manx usually lists it and offers a link (at least for DEC manuals). It also lists manuals that are known to exist but are not known to be available, so you do need to check that it offers a download link (and, probably) check that the link works. Whenever I've scanned stuff for bitsavers, I've done so at 600dpi, B&W, G4 encoded, scanned to PDF. Very occasionally a few pages in a manual have had a photograph, so I've scanned those at 600 dpi 8-bit (greyscale) and substitued the page if it looks better. I've never found a clever way to do pages that are mostly B&W but have a small amount of colour (such as some of the older RSX manuals), so I've defaulted to 300dpi 24-bit colour for those pages. Uploading to bitsavers via FTP used to be the method I used to send stuff in bulk. I suppose these days you could upload to dropbox and offer links that way. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org On 15 March 2015 at 17:32, shadoooo wrote: > Hello, > checking on bitsavers for bare presence is not a problem at all... > > I should assume that all the documents widely available on other sites > (like manx or related links) > are also on bitsavers? > I mean, searching on bitsavers and not founding a specific file there is > enough to assume that the file is unavailable > and should be scanned? > > Anyway, I would need some advice about the way to transfer scanned files > (huge unprocessed/uncompressed or > post-processed to bitmap with level/contrast adaption) to the archive. > > Andrea > From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:16:04 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:16:04 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <10DB8137-7D04-4169-9F36-DD9CFA6AC58C@gmail.com> > On Mar 16, 2015, at 7:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Doh! Misunderstood the last question... >> As far as running 2.9BSD without split I&D space, I've definitely read about >> it being able. I think it was mentioned somewhere, that this was the last >> version known to be able to do this. > > I have run 2.9BSD on a real 11/24 (F-11, no split I&D). Thats what I gleaned from comments in the unix faq. I am going to try installing 2.9 on my 11/23+ and see how far I get. Can you recall if anything oddball was needed to install it on the 24? Thanks, all! > > -ethan From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:26:22 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 08:26:22 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316135839.ACD5818C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316135839.ACD5818C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2015, at 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Pete Turnbull > >> 2.9BSD doesn't need split I&D, but 2.11BSD does. > > Doesn't 2.11 also need Supervisor mode (at least, for the networking code)? Yep. Netnix runs as a standalone task in supervisor mode. > > Of course, there is not (AFAICR) any machine with split I&D but not > Supervisor, so the question above is purely intellectual, not of practical > consequence. Nothing wrong with purely intellectual questions. > (Unless you have an 11/xx with an Able ENABLE board! :-) What is an ENABLE board? Unibus, qbus? > > Noel From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 16 09:20:07 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:20:07 -0500 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? Message-ID: I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. The Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television says: "Older video game consoles and home computers generated a nonstandard NTSC or PAL signal which sent a single field type which prevented fields from interlacing. This is equivalent to 240p and 288p respectively, and was used due to requiring less resources and producing a progressive and stable signal." Another source says this was true for the "NTSC Atari 2600, Apple II family, Commodore 64, Nintendo Entertainment System, Sega Master System, and the vast majority of games for NTSC Genesis, Super NES, PlayStation, and Nintendo 64." This page http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/ calls it a "special timing signal" and gives examples of how contemporary flat-panel TVs can misinterpret the old signal. The issue has spawned the creation of dozen of devices to give the retro look on new TVs. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 09:54:53 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 10:54:53 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <10DB8137-7D04-4169-9F36-DD9CFA6AC58C@gmail.com> References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> <10DB8137-7D04-4169-9F36-DD9CFA6AC58C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Roe Peterson wrote: >> I have run 2.9BSD on a real 11/24 (F-11, no split I&D). > > Thats what I gleaned from comments in the unix faq. I am going to try installing 2.9 on my 11/23+ and see how far I get. What disk controller do you have? That's the biggest issue. > Can you recall if anything oddball was needed to install it on the 24? Nothing oddball except I had to have the right type of tape controller to boot my install tapes (MS vs MT) and I had to have enough storage on a supported controller. There was no MSCP support for 2.9BSD in those days. There are modernish patches now. I did my install onto a pair of RL02 disks (because I didn't have an RK07). You will need more than 10MB if you want to rebuild the kernel, but you can put the install kernel on a 10MB disk and noodle around. ISTR there's support at install time for a number of types of system disk, but RK05 was now too small. There are also 3rd-party ESDI and SMD controllers that would work. -ethan From ats at offog.org Mon Mar 16 10:07:17 2015 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 15:07:17 +0000 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <20150316143357.14E192073CCF@huey.classiccmp.org> (John Foust's message of "Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:20:07 -0500") References: <20150316143357.14E192073CCF@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: John Foust writes: > I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers > and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. There's a pretty good description here, with diagrams of the video waveforms involved for both PAL and NTSC (both use the same idea): http://martin.hinner.info/vga/pal.html In brief: a video signal consists of a series of fields (about 60 per second for NTSC). Each video field starts with a series of "vertical sync" pulses that returns the electron beam to the top of the screen (there's also a "horizontal sync" pulse at the end of each line, which moves the beam back to the left of the screen). There are different vertical sync pulse sequences for odd and even fields, so the monitor knows to offset the even field by half a line. A normal video signal alternates between odd and even fields; in the kind of non-interlaced signal you're talking about, every frame starts with the odd field vertical sync, so the monitor always pulls the electron beam back to the same place. Cheers, -- Adam Sampson From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:26:00 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 09:26:00 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> <10DB8137-7D04-4169-9F36-DD9CFA6AC58C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <52DDB0A0-673F-440F-8CBF-49877A924B8B@gmail.com> > On Mar 16, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 10:16 AM, Roe Peterson wrote: >>> I have run 2.9BSD on a real 11/24 (F-11, no split I&D). >> >> Thats what I gleaned from comments in the unix faq. I am going to try installing 2.9 on my 11/23+ and see how far I get. > > What disk controller do you have? That's the biggest issue. Im thinking about a pair of RL02 drives myself. I am guessing I will have more success prepping a pair of RL02 images with simh and using vtserver to copy them to the RLs than trying to find a suitable working tape drive... > There was no MSCP support for 2.9BSD in > those days. There are modernish patches now. I did my install onto a > pair of RL02 disks (because I didn't have an RK07). You will need > more than 10MB if you want to rebuild the kernel, but you can put the > install kernel on a 10MB disk and noodle around. ISTR there's support > at install time for a number of types of system disk, but RK05 was now > too small. There are also 3rd-party ESDI and SMD controllers that > would work. Ive got an old eagle drive I want to play with, I have an emulex SC03 on the way... > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 10:41:31 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 11:41:31 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <52DDB0A0-673F-440F-8CBF-49877A924B8B@gmail.com> References: <5506D00B.1060301@update.uu.se> <5506D057.2090009@update.uu.se> <10DB8137-7D04-4169-9F36-DD9CFA6AC58C@gmail.com> <52DDB0A0-673F-440F-8CBF-49877A924B8B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 11:26 AM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Im thinking about a pair of RL02 drives myself. My memory of that is you will have to do some manual directory management to split across two disks. Like I said, the primary install should fit in 10MB, but not with source and man pages, and the load-from-tape procedure doesn't give you a lot of flexibility. > I am guessing I will have more success prepping a pair of RL02 images with simh and using vtserver to copy them to the RLs than trying to find a suitable working tape drive... I didn't figure you had a real tape drive (most people don't, especially for Qbus) and I don't even remember if there _is_ a DEC MT Qbus controller (there is probably a 3rd-party one). > Ive got an old eagle drive I want to play with, I have an emulex SC03 on the way... That sounds like a winning combination. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 16 12:21:58 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Roe Peterson >> (Unless you have an 11/xx with an Able ENABLE board! :-) > What is an ENABLE board? That's that thing we had an 'energetic' discussion about a while back; it's a board that allows one to put more than 256KB of memory in a UNIBUS machine (other than a /44 or /70, which already support more than 256KB - and probably the /24 too, too lazy to check). Noel From ryan at hack.net Mon Mar 16 12:31:04 2015 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:31:04 -0500 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.14E192073CCF@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9C1E8D60-17D1-47A6-9E76-A0DAA26ADEF3@hack.net> Great description, thanks for posting this. -Ryan > On Mar 16, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > > John Foust writes: > >> I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers >> and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. > > There's a pretty good description here, with diagrams of the video > waveforms involved for both PAL and NTSC (both use the same idea): > http://martin.hinner.info/vga/pal.html > > In brief: a video signal consists of a series of fields (about 60 per > second for NTSC). Each video field starts with a series of "vertical > sync" pulses that returns the electron beam to the top of the screen > (there's also a "horizontal sync" pulse at the end of each line, which > moves the beam back to the left of the screen). There are different > vertical sync pulse sequences for odd and even fields, so the monitor > knows to offset the even field by half a line. A normal video signal > alternates between odd and even fields; in the kind of non-interlaced > signal you're talking about, every frame starts with the odd field > vertical sync, so the monitor always pulls the electron beam back to the > same place. > > Cheers, > > -- > Adam Sampson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 12:39:44 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:39:44 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > What is an ENABLE board? > > That's that thing we had an 'energetic' discussion about a while back; it's a > board that allows one to put more than 256KB of memory in a UNIBUS machine > (other than a /44 or /70, which already support more than 256KB - and probably > the /24 too, too lazy to check). The KT-24 Unibus Map Module allows more than 256KB in an 11/24. I bought one long ago for running 2.9BSD. -ethan From b4 at gewt.net Mon Mar 16 12:43:55 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 13:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Mar 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The KT-24 Unibus Map Module allows more than 256KB in an 11/24. I > bought one long ago for running 2.9BSD. > > -ethan > Did 2.10 require split? -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 12:49:53 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:49:53 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <550717C1.1090500@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 18:21, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Roe Peterson > > >> (Unless you have an 11/xx with an Able ENABLE board! :-) > > > What is an ENABLE board? > > That's that thing we had an 'energetic' discussion about a while back; it's a > board that allows one to put more than 256KB of memory in a UNIBUS machine > (other than a /44 or /70, which already support more than 256KB - and probably > the /24 too, too lazy to check). Yeah, the 11/24 also supports more than 256K. However, at least the ENABLE board that I used on an 11/34 did not add neither split I/D space, nor supervisor mode. Essentially it made the 11/34 look like an 11/24. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From sander.reiche at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 13:00:27 2015 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:00:27 +0100 Subject: VMS Notify SimH beeping Message-ID: Probably stupid question, I'm sure, but I'd like to disable the beeping of SimH when VMS is notifying. I cannot seem to find anything of a configurable parameter in the documentation. Am I missing something? Kind regards, Sander From drb at msu.edu Mon Mar 16 13:15:54 2015 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:15:54 -0400 Subject: VMS Notify SimH beeping In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:00:27 +0100.) References: Message-ID: <20150316181554.AE3BCA580AD@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Probably stupid question, I'm sure, but I'd like to disable the > beeping of SimH when VMS is notifying. I cannot seem to find anything > of a configurable parameter in the documentation. It's VMS, not simh, that injects the bells. But you might look into the simh SET CONSOLE PCHAR= to see if you can get simh to filter them out. De From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 16 13:18:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150316181840.E2C0A18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > the ENABLE board that I used on an 11/34 did not add neither split I/D > space, nor supervisor mode. Essentially it made the 11/34 look like an > 11/24. Right, it doesn't add any modes, or separation, or anything like that; just more memory. It's entirely separate from the CPU; it just sits in the middle of the UNIBUS. Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 13:18:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:18:59 +0100 Subject: VMS Notify SimH beeping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55071E93.1070100@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 19:00, Sander Reiche wrote: > Probably stupid question, I'm sure, but I'd like to disable the beeping of > SimH when VMS is notifying. I cannot seem to find anything of a > configurable parameter in the documentation. > > Am I missing something? Yes. simh isn't the one doing the beeping. VMS is outputting the BEL character, and your terminal program reacts to that, just as it reacts to CR, LF or BS. Just that BEL causes your terminal program to emit a sound. Change the config in your terminal program, if possible. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 13:20:30 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:20:30 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316181840.E2C0A18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316181840.E2C0A18C106@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55071EEE.2070802@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 19:18, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > the ENABLE board that I used on an 11/34 did not add neither split I/D > > space, nor supervisor mode. Essentially it made the 11/34 look like an > > 11/24. > > Right, it doesn't add any modes, or separation, or anything like that; just > more memory. It's entirely separate from the CPU; it just sits in the middle > of the UNIBUS. I need to see if I can locate the manual in the summer when I get close to where I had that 11/34, since we still seem to talk about two different ENABLE products, though... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 13:33:13 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:33:13 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316172158.9B80018C0F6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote: > On Mon, 16 Mar 2015, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> >> The KT-24 Unibus Map Module allows more than 256KB in an 11/24. I >> bought one long ago for running 2.9BSD. >> > > Did 2.10 require split? I think so. Back in the day, I couldn't afford a Split I&D machine of my own and we didn't have any at work (at my disposal were 11/03, 11/23, 11/23+, 11/04, 11/34, 11/24). The 11/44, 11/73, and 11/70 were out of my reach (but not anymore! Now, my problem is choosing what disks to use, but at least 2.11 supports MSCP out of the box, which allows for pain-free SCSI, etc., and I really ought to try playing with the 2.9BSD MSCP patches). -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 16 13:43:33 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:43:33 -0600 Subject: VMS Notify SimH beeping In-Reply-To: <55071E93.1070100@update.uu.se> References: <55071E93.1070100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55072455.3060703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/16/2015 12:18 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-16 19:00, Sander Reiche wrote: >> Probably stupid question, I'm sure, but I'd like to disable the >> beeping of >> SimH when VMS is notifying. I cannot seem to find anything of a >> configurable parameter in the documentation. >> >> Am I missing something? > > Yes. simh isn't the one doing the beeping. > > VMS is outputting the BEL character, and your terminal program reacts to > that, just as it reacts to CR, LF or BS. Just that BEL causes your > terminal program to emit a sound. > > Change the config in your terminal program, if possible. But what ever you do, don't redirect to your phone.:) > Johnny > Ben. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Mar 16 13:34:33 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:34:33 +0000 (WET) Subject: VMS Notify SimH beeping In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:00:27 +0100" Message-ID: <01PJOOGASXU20004E1@beyondthepale.ie> Sander Reiche wrote: > Probably stupid question, I'm sure, but I'd like to disable the beeping of > SimH when VMS is notifying. I cannot seem to find anything of a > configurable parameter in the documentation. > If you are getting opcom messages on the console, log on to the console and do a REPLY /DISABLE to stop the messages until the next reboot. Have a look at the comments in SYS$MANAGER:SYLOGICALS.TEMPLATE regarding OPC$OPA0_ENABLE and OPC$OPA0_CLASSES for details on how to disable opcom messages permanently. For other ways of filtering the messages, check out the online help for SET BROADCAST and SET TERMINAL /BROADCAST If you want the messages but not the beeps, it should be possible to write a program that listens for messages and writes them out without beeping. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 16 13:51:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150316185125.77D1A18C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > I need to see if I can locate the manual in the summer when I get close > to where I had that 11/34 That would be wonderful, if you find it! In addition to showing for sure how it basically worked, I still also have a number of questions as to exactly how it connected up to the optional cache, EUB memory, etc. > we still seem to talk about two different ENABLE products, though... :-) I saying what I'm about to say, I am not in any way trying to be argumentative (truly, I would be as happy if you were correct, just as much as if I were, _provided that we had found out what the correct answer really is_), but I really do think that your memory is playing tricks on you, with the 'it didn't require any software changes at all'. The "Enable/34" described in contemporary posts here: http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.09_ucbvax.2202_fa.unix-wizards.txt http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.12_ucbvax.2254_fa.unix-wizards.txt works the way I'm describing... (Although note I do think Mike made some mistakes in the diagram in the first one - I think the DMA devices have to be behind the ENABLE/34, per his description in the second post of how it works.) I wish we could find a copy of the paper mentioned there ("Modifications to UNIX to Allow Four Mega Bytes of Main Memory on a 11/40 Class Processor" by Clement T. Cole and Sterling J. Huxley), as it might also answer the questions I have... Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 14:15:25 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:15:25 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316185125.77D1A18C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316185125.77D1A18C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55072BCD.3070808@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 19:51, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > I need to see if I can locate the manual in the summer when I get close > > to where I had that 11/34 > > That would be wonderful, if you find it! In addition to showing for sure how > it basically worked, I still also have a number of questions as to exactly > how it connected up to the optional cache, EUB memory, etc. > > > we still seem to talk about two different ENABLE products, though... :-) > > I saying what I'm about to say, I am not in any way trying to be > argumentative (truly, I would be as happy if you were correct, just as much > as if I were, _provided that we had found out what the correct answer really > is_), but I really do think that your memory is playing tricks on you, with > the 'it didn't require any software changes at all'. > > The "Enable/34" described in contemporary posts here: > > http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.09_ucbvax.2202_fa.unix-wizards.txt > http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.12_ucbvax.2254_fa.unix-wizards.txt > > works the way I'm describing... (Although note I do think Mike made some > mistakes in the diagram in the first one - I think the DMA devices have to be > behind the ENABLE/34, per his description in the second post of how it works.) > > I wish we could find a copy of the paper mentioned there ("Modifications to > UNIX to Allow Four Mega Bytes of Main Memory on a 11/40 Class Processor" by > Clement T. Cole and Sterling J. Huxley), as it might also answer the questions > I have... Noel. All I can say is that I did a number of RSX SYSGENs on that 11/34, and it truly looked just like an 11/24 from a software point of view. I wish I had some more details at hand, but all I have are my recollections (but anyone who have done an RSX-11M SYSGEN or three knows that you do not forget them lightly). I'm hoping that Update (the computer club) still have the documentation around. I know we had the manuals when I played with the machine in the early 90s. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 16 14:40:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:40:52 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <55072BCD.3070808@update.uu.se> References: <20150316185125.77D1A18C101@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55072BCD.3070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <550731C4.30805@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-16 20:15, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-16 19:51, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Johnny Billquist >> >> > I need to see if I can locate the manual in the summer when I >> get close >> > to where I had that 11/34 >> >> That would be wonderful, if you find it! In addition to showing for >> sure how >> it basically worked, I still also have a number of questions as to >> exactly >> how it connected up to the optional cache, EUB memory, etc. >> >> > we still seem to talk about two different ENABLE products, >> though... :-) >> >> I saying what I'm about to say, I am not in any way trying to be >> argumentative (truly, I would be as happy if you were correct, just as >> much >> as if I were, _provided that we had found out what the correct answer >> really >> is_), but I really do think that your memory is playing tricks on you, >> with >> the 'it didn't require any software changes at all'. >> >> The "Enable/34" described in contemporary posts here: >> >> >> http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.09_ucbvax.2202_fa.unix-wizards.txt >> >> >> http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.12_ucbvax.2254_fa.unix-wizards.txt >> >> >> works the way I'm describing... (Although note I do think Mike made some >> mistakes in the diagram in the first one - I think the DMA devices >> have to be >> behind the ENABLE/34, per his description in the second post of how it >> works.) >> >> I wish we could find a copy of the paper mentioned there >> ("Modifications to >> UNIX to Allow Four Mega Bytes of Main Memory on a 11/40 Class >> Processor" by >> Clement T. Cole and Sterling J. Huxley), as it might also answer the >> questions >> I have... > > Noel. All I can say is that I did a number of RSX SYSGENs on that 11/34, > and it truly looked just like an 11/24 from a software point of view. > I wish I had some more details at hand, but all I have are my > recollections (but anyone who have done an RSX-11M SYSGEN or three knows > that you do not forget them lightly). > I'm hoping that Update (the computer club) still have the documentation > around. I know we had the manuals when I played with the machine in the > early 90s. By the way. One thing I have not considered, and which might prove you right, is that I do not know if the RSX system I had on that 11/34 had been modified in any way. I (we) got the machine when it was decommissioned, and we continued using it. So no installation was done from scratch, as far as I can remember. I have some vague memory that I installed RSX-11M-PLUS on that machine, but my memory is hazy enough on that part that I wouldn't swear on it. Every time this comes up I really want to go searching for manuals... :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 15:43:16 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 14:43:16 -0600 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <20150316143357.4A68B2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20150316143357.4A68B2073E92@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 8:20 AM, John Foust wrote: > I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers > and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. There were several non-standard aspects of the Apple II "NTSC" video signal which made it not actually NTSC-compliant. It was mostly a matter of timing. The most significant deviations were lack of interlace (60 frames per second, rather than 30 frames per second each comprised of two interlaced fields), and that each horizontal scan line was 228 color carrier cycles long rather than 227.5, which was done so that the color carrier phase relative to horizontal timing was the same on all scan lines. Early revisions of the Apple II were also missing the serrations in the vertical interval. Some people claim that the way color was generated in the Apple II was somehow "fake" and refer to it as "artifacts" that somehow "trick" the television or monitor, but in actuality it was just a clever way of having the hardware produce various signal amplitudes and phases, just as "real" color does. It was clever enough to be patented, but it's not in any way "wrong" or "fake". When other devices have an issue with Apple II video as a source, and don't reproduce the colors properly, in my experience it is usually the 228 vs. 227.5 color carrier cycles per scan line that is at fault. In the early 1980s, Video Associate Labs sold a product for the Apple II called the VB3 Microkeyer. This consisted of a long slot 7 card, and a larger card that installed atop the power supply, connected by a ribbon cable. You had to pull about a dozen chips out of the Apple II motherboard (thus it would only work with the II and II+, but not the IIe or IIgs), and install in their place ribbon cables to the VB3 boards. The results were: 1) The Apple II would generate fully-compliant broadcast-quality NTSC output. (IIRC, there was a way to selectably disable interlace, which would break NTSC compliance.) 2) proc amp and gen lock: The Apple II video could be overlayed on an external video input. This could be done selectively (keying), and it was also possible to do software-controlled "wipes" between two video inputs, using the Apple video bitmap as the input selector. 3) A special "linear" high-res graphics mode was added, in which the addressing of the frame buffer was linear rather than having the normal Apple II interlaced addressing. This made it easier to program keying and wipes, but could be used for other purposes. I used and programmed one of these in the instructional television studio of a community college. I wrote some "wipe" programs for it, and licensed them to Video Associate Labs in exchange for a VB3 of my own. Alas, I no longer have it. :-( Years later Apple introduced a Video Overlay card, which did produce broadcast-quality NTSC output, and would work in the II, II+, IIe, and IIgs. It supported all of the IIgs graphics modes, even when used in an earlier model computer. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 17:46:34 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 17:46:34 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms Message-ID: The VCFMW hotel room group rate is active! Follow the Holiday Inn link under "location" on the main vcfmw.org page or mention "vintage computer festival" or group code "CCC" when calling 1 (877) 834-3613. The rate is $84/night, only $5 more than last year for a finer venue. That rate covers either the single-King or double-double "executive" room, which means you get a microwave and mini-fridge for your leftovers. The block is held until 8/7, so there is plenty of time yet if you're not sure you can make it. But if you are, book soon so we have an idea of how many are coming and whether we need to expand the block. See you in August! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 16 18:27:50 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 19:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > All I can say is that I did a number of RSX SYSGENs on that 11/34, and > it truly looked just like an 11/24 from a software point of view. The thing that I wonder about it, for that to be true, is something that someone (sorry, to lazy to look in the archive to give proper credit) pointed out, which is that that CPU is only two boards, and the memory management, including the PARs, is built into one of them. So how could one extend a PAR from 12 bits to 16, when there's already 12 bits buried deep inside the CPU? That's the part that I can't work out... > I'm hoping that Update ... still have the documentation around. You and me both! :-) I have this dream of one day having an 11/45, with the Enable and the optional cache. Now that would be a sweeet machine: most of the capability of an 11/70, but a lot less power draw. But I'd need the documentation to see how to connect it up! :-) > Every time this comes up I really want to go searching for manuals... > :-) Please do! :-) Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 19:10:35 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 18:10:35 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel Chiappa wrote: > I have this dream of one day having an 11/45, with the Enable and the optional > cache.Now that would be a sweeet machine: most of the capability of an 11/70, > but a lot less power draw. The power draw of the 11/45 and 11/70 is almost the same, with the exception of the separate memory box(es), MJ11 core or MK11 MOS, for the 11/70. I'd *much* rather have an 11/70 with third-party memory than an 11/45 with any amount of third-party enhancements. The PEP70 was a single-board memory that you could plug into an otherwise unused slot in the 11/70 CPU backplane, with a few extra wire-wrapped jumpers on the backplane, and plug in the four ribbon cables from the 11/70 cache modules. The same vendor also offered an HC70 "HyperCache" option, which when used in conjunction with the PEP70, made all memory operate at cache speed. It would probably be difficult or impossible to obtain a PEP70 (with or without HC70) at this late date. The 11/70 memory bus (between the CPU and memory box) is quite simple, so it should be very easy for someone with reasonable hardware expertise to design and build a modern memory board for it, comparable to the PEP70. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 16 19:40:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:40:18 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> > On Mar 16, 2015, at 8:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I have this dream of one day having an 11/45, with the Enable and the optional >> cache.Now that would be a sweeet machine: most of the capability of an 11/70, >> but a lot less power draw. > > The power draw of the 11/45 and 11/70 is almost the same, with the > exception of the separate memory box(es), MJ11 core or MK11 MOS, for > the 11/70. I'd *much* rather have an 11/70 with third-party memory > than an 11/45 with any amount of third-party enhancements. The PEP70 > was a single-board memory that you could plug into an otherwise unused > slot in the 11/70 CPU backplane, with a few extra wire-wrapped jumpers > on the backplane, and plug in the four ribbon cables from the 11/70 > cache modules. The same vendor also offered an HC70 "HyperCache" > option, which when used in conjunction with the PEP70, made all memory > operate at cache speed. > > It would probably be difficult or impossible to obtain a PEP70 (with > or without HC70) at this late date. The 11/70 memory bus (between the > CPU and memory box) is quite simple, so it should be very easy for > someone with reasonable hardware expertise to design and build a > modern memory board for it, comparable to the PEP70. Interesting notion. With a fairly large FPGA, you could use the on-chip memory for a single-chip solution (well, not quite, some bus driver (level shifters) are likely to be needed). Or a small FPGA plus one or two SRAM chips. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:05:36 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 20:05:36 -0700 Subject: 11/23+ Console cables In-Reply-To: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > This may be common knowledge here, but I was unaware of it (and, AFAIK, the > DEC documentation doesn't point this out), so here goes... > > It turns out one doesn't need the fancy cab-kit to connect up to an 11/23+'s > console. The headers on the card are completely compatible with standard > DLV11-J connectors, and a DLV11-J cable can be used to connect up to an > 11/23+ card. (One has to select the desired baud rate with the DIP switches > on the card, of course.) I have verified this by trying it, and it worked. > > The cabkits merely allow one to select the baud rate at the console connector > (via a clock generator on the cabkit, and the 'external clock' input on the > serial interface). This implies that one should be able to plug a cabkit into > an appropriately configured DLV11-J (external serial clock select), and > select the baud rate via the switch on the cabkit. I haven't tried that, > though. If anyone is looking for the real cabkit for the M8189 PDP-11/23+ JT Computer currently has some listed on eBay for $45. There were 5 listed, 2 sold last week: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151615474481 CK-KDF11-BA M8189 CABKIT INCLUDES PANEL AND CABLES I finally got around to buying a CK-KDJ11-D cabkit for the M7554 KDJ11-D directly from their website ( www.jtcomputer.com ) a week ago. I've had good results buying a few things from them. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:10:25 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 23:10:25 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 16 March 2015 at 20:40, Paul Koning wrote: > Interesting notion. With a fairly large FPGA, you could use the on-chip memory for a single-chip solution (well, not quite, some bus driver (level shifters) are likely to be needed). Or a small FPGA plus one or two SRAM chips. > You could also make use of some of those rather quite interesting MRAM memory chip technology that's about. All the non-volatility of core, with all the speed, low-profile, and low power consumption of modern volatile RAM technologies. Unfortunately, the cost of MRAM chips is rather a lot, especially since you can't just order small batches. Minimum order on Mouser was 128 chips at something like $20 CAD per. - Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:32:35 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:32:35 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 6:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Interesting notion. With a fairly large FPGA, you could use the on-chip memory for a single-chip solution (well, not quite, some bus driver (level shifters) are likely to be needed). Or a small FPGA plus one or two SRAM chips. Assuming that you want any reasonable amount of memory (1MB or more), a "fairly large FPGA" that provides it as on-chip memory costs several *thousand* dollars. It makes far more sense to use external memory, and then you only need a tiny CPLD for control, or a small FPGA if you want to implement ECC. Assuming that you run the programmable logic and memory at 3.3V, the "level shifters" are just 74LVC245A bidirectional buffers. If I were going to do that, I'd use MRAM for the memory, so that it would be nonvolatile (equivalent to the MK11 battery backup, which supports power-fail restart). From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 16 22:42:11 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:42:11 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:10 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Unfortunately, the cost of MRAM chips is rather a lot, especially > since you can't just order small batches. Minimum order on Mouser was > 128 chips at something like $20 CAD per. Digi-key sells them without any minimum order quantity. Their quantity 1 price for the 1Mx16 35ns TSOP-54 device (p/n MR4A16BYS35) is $36.72. Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Mar 16 23:23:50 2015 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 21:23:50 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5507AC56.5010309@mindspring.com> On 3/16/2015 8:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:10 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > wrote: >> Unfortunately, the cost of MRAM chips is rather a lot, especially >> since you can't just order small batches. Minimum order on Mouser was >> 128 chips at something like $20 CAD per. > Digi-key sells them without any minimum order quantity. Their quantity > 1 price for the 1Mx16 35ns TSOP-54 device (p/n MR4A16BYS35) is $36.72. > > Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire > 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require > another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. > > Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out > a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing > to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. > Most any FPGA development / evaluation boards for the major devices from A and X come with onboard DDR SDRAM that is typically from 16MB to 64MB, so in that case the memory is more or less free. If one were to build a state of the art FPGA board from scratch even then adding a couple of dollars worth of DDR memory is no big deal (one or two devices) given the fact that most of the mid/higher end FPGA devices have hard macro DDR controllers in them these days. The Terasic Cyclone IV based board comes with 32MB of SDRAM memory, an EP4CE22 Cyclone IV device with ~600Kb of internal memory and ~22K logic elements. It can be had for about $80 these days. It is several year old tech at this point. The BeMicroCV board comes with 128MB DDR3 memory, a 5CEFA2 Cyclone V device with ~1700Kb of internal memory and ~25K logic elements. It can be had for only $49. See: https://parts.arrow.com/item/detail/arrow-development-tools/bemicrocv#zgRz For the X vs A folks there are a number of similar boards available at Digilent, altho they tend to be a bit higher priced and a few more bells and whistles (lights and switches) etc. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Tue Mar 17 01:21:48 2015 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:21:48 +0100 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? Message-ID: John Foust wrote: > I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers > and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. > > The Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television > says: (...) Adam Sampson wrote: > There's a pretty good description here, with diagrams of the video > waveforms involved for both PAL and NTSC (both use the same idea): > http://martin.hinner.info/vga/pal.html > > (...) in the kind of non-interlaced > signal you're talking about, every frame starts with the odd field > vertical sync, so the monitor always pulls the electron beam back to > the same place. A-ha, interesting to see that this sort of shortcut was actually taken in commercial products. I pretty much accidentally ended up with that sort of signal when I, back in 2010ish, tried to coax a Sun cg3 style framebuffer (onboard FB of a SPARCclassic) into outputting a (50Hz) TV displayable RGBs Signal by feeding it a hand-crafted "mode line" after working out what the registers on the video timing ASIC do. I'm pretty sure there will be some accounts of that adventure in the list archive as a list member helped me through it. I got the picture to display on my Commodore 1081 Monitor via a 13W3 to SCART cable I had fashioned therefore, but of course wasn't very impressed with the vertical resolution, and couldn't find out how to enable interlaced mode on the ASIC - if it's capable of that at all. So Long, Arno From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 17 05:45:10 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:45:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Mar 2015, John Foust wrote: > I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers > and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. > > The Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television says: > > "Older video game consoles and home computers generated a nonstandard NTSC > or PAL signal which sent a single field type which prevented fields from > interlacing. This is equivalent to 240p and 288p respectively, and was > used due to requiring less resources and producing a progressive > and stable signal." [...] This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't describe in any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, timing). They only describe how to put colour information into the signal. Christian From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Mar 17 01:42:09 2015 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 07:42:09 +0100 Subject: 360/50 microcode listing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Al, This is realy great ! >> CHM was able to obtain volumes 18-20 of the IBM 2050 drawings, which are >> the microcode charts and ROS dump. I got them scanned and uploaded yesterday >> to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2050 >> This was one of the things that I had been trying to locate for a while now. Did the CHM also obtained the other volemes ? Any one has some time to write a micro code emulator for it ? I have done it a few years ago for the model 30. Regards Henk Stegeman From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 17 07:34:31 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:34:31 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55081F57.5080803@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 01:10, Eric Smith wrote: > Noel Chiappa wrote: >> I have this dream of one day having an 11/45, with the Enable and the optional >> cache.Now that would be a sweeet machine: most of the capability of an 11/70, >> but a lot less power draw. > > The power draw of the 11/45 and 11/70 is almost the same, with the > exception of the separate memory box(es), MJ11 core or MK11 MOS, for > the 11/70. I'd *much* rather have an 11/70 with third-party memory > than an 11/45 with any amount of third-party enhancements. The PEP70 > was a single-board memory that you could plug into an otherwise unused > slot in the 11/70 CPU backplane, with a few extra wire-wrapped jumpers > on the backplane, and plug in the four ribbon cables from the 11/70 > cache modules. The same vendor also offered an HC70 "HyperCache" > option, which when used in conjunction with the PEP70, made all memory > operate at cache speed. > > It would probably be difficult or impossible to obtain a PEP70 (with > or without HC70) at this late date. The 11/70 memory bus (between the > CPU and memory box) is quite simple, so it should be very easy for > someone with reasonable hardware expertise to design and build a > modern memory board for it, comparable to the PEP70. I have from time to time played with the thought... An 11/70 with the PEP70/HC70 combo would probably draw the same as an 11/45. And you'd have a much sweeter machine. Johnny From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 17 07:40:45 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:40:45 -0400 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550820CD.3050505@sbcglobal.net> On 03/16/2015 06:46 PM, Jason T wrote: > The VCFMW hotel room group rate is active! Follow the Holiday Inn > link under "location" on the main vcfmw.org page or mention "vintage > computer festival" or group code "CCC" when calling 1 (877) 834-3613. > > The rate is $84/night, only $5 more than last year for a finer venue. > That rate covers either the single-King or double-double "executive" > room, which means you get a microwave and mini-fridge for your > leftovers. > > The block is held until 8/7, so there is plenty of time yet if you're > not sure you can make it. But if you are, book soon so we have an > idea of how many are coming and whether we need to expand the block. > > See you in August! > Shouldn't the title be VCFMW 1010 ? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Mar 17 07:43:14 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:43:14 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <55081F57.5080803@update.uu.se> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55081F57.5080803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <55082162.6010705@e-bbes.com> On 2015-03-17 13:34, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-17 01:10, Eric Smith wrote: >> Noel Chiappa wrote: >> It would probably be difficult or impossible to obtain a PEP70 (with >> or without HC70) at this late date. The 11/70 memory bus (between the >> CPU and memory box) is quite simple, so it should be very easy for >> someone with reasonable hardware expertise to design and build a >> modern memory board for it, comparable to the PEP70. > > I have from time to time played with the thought... > An 11/70 with the PEP70/HC70 combo would probably draw the same as an > 11/45. And you'd have a much sweeter machine. > I guess, everybody who has a 11/70 toyed/played with this idea. But you need few people who would pitch in to make the boards ... Cheers From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 07:45:49 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:45:49 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Update: Unfortunately, I think I'm at a dead end. After cleaning everything up, I am still at the "A" in the "Bring Up" program that isn't very far but it's better than garbage. I removed both memory cards and get garbage so the memory cards might be working (I have two and tried both individually). I think my problem is in the "Basic I/O" card as indicated in the Maintenance manual. I am also not able to get into the Diagnostics screen because it must be failing too early. Either that or my keyboard isn't working. It's hard to tell. I'd be happy to try to replace some of the logic chips but IBM uses their own numbering scheme. Does anyone know of a way to read them? I assume they are normal logic chips but with IBM numbering in most cases? Ali, thanks for the link. I did look over that document a while ago but the Maintenance manual is also very thorough in regards to the 5106 tape drive both internally and as an external unit. The rollers look great and hard in both the internal and external unit but I obviously can't test out either at this point. Anyway, I did clean it up and took some more pictures to document where the cards go. Thanks to Dave Dunfield's IBM 5100 site, I was able to figure it out. Much appreciated Dave! I have also taken pictures of my cards and where they go. You can find new pictures here: http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-5100-in-pictures/ On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 3:12 PM, Ali wrote: > > Yes, it is an external tape drive that is very similar to the internal > > drive. I'm guessing it was touted as doubling the "mass storage" for > > the > > 5100 but it was probably used for backups. Unfortunately, I don't have > > any tapes or documentation and thee is supposed to be a supplemental > > tape that had the utility to make backup tapes. > > That is very cool. As far as tapes are concerned any std. DC300 or DC600 > tape should work. However, make sure to check for gooified insides on both > tape drive mechanisms. I did some googlefu and found the following which > may help you: > > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/5106.html > > Not much but a starting point. > > > > > > I'll take some more pics when I clean it up. I've only ever seen a > > picture of the front online. > > That would be great. Even if you can't get it up and running at least we > would have some records for posterity. > > Congrats on your find! Those machines are rare and when they come up they > always sell for way more than I am ready to spend! > > -Ali > > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 17 08:22:09 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 14:22:09 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <55082162.6010705@e-bbes.com> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <55081F57.5080803@update.uu.se> <55082162.6010705@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <55082A81.5000308@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 13:43, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2015-03-17 13:34, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-03-17 01:10, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Noel Chiappa wrote: > >>> It would probably be difficult or impossible to obtain a PEP70 (with >>> or without HC70) at this late date. The 11/70 memory bus (between the >>> CPU and memory box) is quite simple, so it should be very easy for >>> someone with reasonable hardware expertise to design and build a >>> modern memory board for it, comparable to the PEP70. >> >> I have from time to time played with the thought... >> An 11/70 with the PEP70/HC70 combo would probably draw the same as an >> 11/45. And you'd have a much sweeter machine. >> > I guess, everybody who has a 11/70 toyed/played with this idea. Yeah... :-) > But you need few people who would pitch in to make the boards ... Making just a replacement for the PEP70 would be easy, I think. Just interface the 11/70 memory bus. The more interesting one would be the HC70 style thing. Make all memory work like cache. That would require ripping out the existing 11/70 cache, and replace those boards. Means you need to interface to the whole CPU. But the gains would be much larger. I guess it is possible. You just need to read the 11/70 drawings and manuals, to figure out how the cache works and interfaces with the rest of the CPU. I would definitely be interested in helping out, but I do not have enough time at the moment to do much of the work myself. Johnny From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 17 08:28:01 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:28:01 -0500 Subject: 11/23+ Console cables In-Reply-To: References: <20150216194746.815D018C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55082BE1.6020103@compsys.to> >Glen Slick wrote: >>On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > >>This may be common knowledge here, but I was unaware of it (and, AFAIK, the >>DEC documentation doesn't point this out), so here goes... >> >>It turns out one doesn't need the fancy cab-kit to connect up to an 11/23+'s >>console. The headers on the card are completely compatible with standard >>DLV11-J connectors, and a DLV11-J cable can be used to connect up to an >>11/23+ card. (One has to select the desired baud rate with the DIP switches >>on the card, of course.) I have verified this by trying it, and it worked. >> >>The cabkits merely allow one to select the baud rate at the console connector >>(via a clock generator on the cabkit, and the 'external clock' input on the >>serial interface). This implies that one should be able to plug a cabkit into >>an appropriately configured DLV11-J (external serial clock select), and >>select the baud rate via the switch on the cabkit. I haven't tried that, >>though. >> >If anyone is looking for the real cabkit for the M8189 PDP-11/23+ JT >Computer currently has some listed on eBay for $45. There were 5 >listed, 2 sold last week: > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/151615474481 >CK-KDF11-BA M8189 CABKIT INCLUDES PANEL AND CABLES > >I finally got around to buying a CK-KDJ11-D cabkit for the M7554 >KDJ11-D directly from their website ( www.jtcomputer.com ) a week ago. >I've had good results buying a few things from them. > Check From bqt at softjar.se Tue Mar 17 10:38:32 2015 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:38:32 +0100 Subject: [HECnet] Announcing TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS In-Reply-To: <54C129B4.8080902@softjar.se> References: <54B5ACD2.7080804@softjar.se> <54B889EE.4050807@softjar.se> <54C129B4.8080902@softjar.se> Message-ID: <55084A78.5090302@softjar.se> It's been close to two months since the last announcement. I have been busy with improving thing since then, and I guess it's time to announce a new version, for people who might be interested. Improvements since last announcements: . FTP client and server have had extensive bugfixing, performance improvements and feature enhancements. . NETSTAT has been rewritten to be more useful and friendly. . Bugfix in INETD. It never checked the result from the ACCEPT. . TCP have had several bugfixes and improvements: . At tcp close, retransmit didn't happen if only FIN was left unacknowledged. . If both sides sent FIN at the same time, the socket could get out of sync. . Improved performance at FIN time by allowing ACK to be delayed. . Accept legal packets after the FIN. . Cleanup of how offspring task sockets are handled. . Added the ability to transmit TCP URGENT data. . Redesigned the TCP receive window handling for improved performance. . TCP PUSH could transmit more data with push flag that it should. . Added handling of ICMP error packets to TCP. . Installation procedure have been updated with the ability to not install some command files. The helps with updates of existing installation. . Documentation have been updated (although it still miss a lot of pieces.) I encourage everyone who have installed BQTP/IP on an RSX system to update to the latest version, as some of these fixes can make a big difference. As usual, the distribution is available from: ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc Johnny On 2015-01-22 17:47, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I just thought I'd make yet an announcement. > (Maybe I should find a better forum for this?) > > The last week I've been busy with FTP improvements and performance, and > I've managed to improve this a lot. > Enough that it is worth sending information out that people should > upgrade if they have installed this. > > The FTP client and server have improved performance and some additional > features. Along with this I also changed the protocol format for RSX > special mode transfers. This is not backwards compatible, and due to an > initial design miss, the old ftp client/server will not reliably detect > this incompatibility, resulting in broken files if RSX mode is used > between the old and new version. This will not be a problem going > forward. If you run FTP from RSX to fetch the new package, use BLOCK > mode instead of RSX mode, and fetch the disk image and not the tape > image, and you'll be fine. Once upgraded, RSX mode is definitely the > recommended mode for the future. For all kind of files. > > TCP itself increased the receive buffer size, which also improves > performance for everything that would be interested in higher throughput. > > I've also gone over the distribution and installation scripts and fixed > a few minor details. > > As usual, the distribution is available from: > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.dsk > ftp://madame.update.uu.se/bqtcp.tap > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip/tcpip.dsk > > The documentation is also available through ftp on Madame, or also at > http://madame.update.uu.se/tcpipdoc > > Johnny > > All in all, > On 2015-01-16 04:47, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> There have been lots of positive comments, and obviously some people >> have even tested using the software. >> >> Of course, a bug was also found. A really weird corner case with >> severely loading the network stack and having a socket in listen state >> programatically could trigger a corruption of kernel memory. >> >> So I've cut a new release with the bug fixed. >> >> While I'm at it I also realize that I forgot to mention that included in >> the distribution is also a simple IRC client as well as a simple IRC >> robot. >> >> I've also taken a little time to slightly improve the documentation, and >> the documentation is now also available directly by ftp from >> Madame.Update.UU.SE, so you do not need to get the whole distribution >> and unpack it to just read something. >> >> So - same as before. Disk image and tape image are available at >> Madame.Update.UU.SE. Use anonymous ftp. >> Disk image is also available at >> ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip. >> The disk image is a virtual RL02 disk. Can be used with any emulator, or >> also directly inside RSX if you have virtual devices available. >> >> Happy hacking. >> >> Johnny >> >> >> On 2015-01-14 00:40, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Well, it's been a long time project, but I'm happy to finally announce a >>> more public initial release of TCP/IP for RSX-11M-PLUS. >>> >>> This is the result of over 20 years of development. Needless to say, >>> I've been doing a lot of things over the years, and this code have been >>> through four reimplementations over the years. >>> What I now release is something that I believe is a nice and useful >>> piece of software. I am aware of the fact that most people do not use >>> these machines any longer, but if someone actually wants to talk to me >>> about support for this or other RSX software, let me know. >>> >>> Also, feel free to spread this information to anyone who might be >>> interested, anywhere. >>> >>> So - what is in this release? >>> It is a complete implementation of ARP, IP, UDP, and TCP for >>> RSX-11M-PLUS. It has been tested on RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6, but should work >>> on any V4 release. There might be some small tweaks or fixes required, >>> but nothing major. >>> It do require a system with split I/D-space, or else at least the TCP >>> part will not fit. >>> For Unibus machines, it should be possible to run without any additional >>> software except what is in a base RSX distribution. >>> For Q-bus machines, DECnet is required for ethernet networking. >>> The TCP/IP stack can co-exist with DECnet. >>> Some utilities also utilize RMS for file access. >>> >>> A bunch of tools, utilities and libraries are also included. These >>> include: >>> . IFCONFIG network configuration tool. >>> . NETSTAT network information tool. >>> . PING >>> . TRACEROUTE >>> >>> . DNS client >>> . FTP daemon >>> . FTP client >>> . HTTP server >>> . TELNET client (rudimentary) >>> . TFTP client >>> . TFTP server >>> . INET server that can do SINK, ECHO, DAYTIME, QUOTE, and IDENT >>> . NTP client >>> . LPR client that sits in the queue manager (rudimentary) >>> >>> . FORTRAN-77 library >>> . BASIC+2 library >>> . PDP-11 C library >>> >>> The implementation fulfills most of the requirements put forth in RFC >>> 1122. There are a few limitations because of restrictions in the PDP-11, >>> but none of them should really cause any problems. >>> >>> Documentation is still on the thin side, but example configs are also >>> provided, along with installation scripts. >>> >>> A bunch of test programs and example programs are also included, as well >>> as the sources of all tools and libraries. >>> >>> The TCP/IP stack itself only comes in binary form. >>> >>> All tools are also included precompiled in the distribution, so an >>> installation only have to build the stack itself for your system, and >>> then you should be ready to go. >>> >>> The API only have a slight resemblance to the Unix sockets API. However, >>> if someone sits down to write code to use TCP/IP under RSX, I'm sure >>> they will discover that it is extremely easy to use the libraries, or >>> the basic functions. >>> >>> The TCP/IP implementation is mostly written as device drivers. This also >>> have some other interesting implications, such as it is possible to >>> access TCP as a normal file. You can, for instance do something similar >>> to the Unix netcat command by issuing the MCR command: >>> >>> > PIP TI:=TC:"foo.com";4711 >>> >>> which would open a connection to foo.com, on port 4711, and any data >>> sent from that machine will be shown on the terminal. >>> >>> The resources used by TCP/IP are modest. A memory area (size selectable >>> at generation/startup) is used internally. The amount of memory in the >>> private pool limits the amount of data that can be buffered. Normal pool >>> is used in a small quantity for each TCP port that is open. >>> >>> People are welcome to play around with this, and make improvements. >>> Contributions of code is most welcome. >>> >>> There are still lots of things to do. The programs marked as rudimentary >>> should be rewritten. >>> The most obvious thing still missing is a telnet daemon, which probably >>> is my next step. >>> >>> However, the reason for now announcing the release is that it can >>> finally be distributed natively from an RSX host. >>> >>> The main locations to download the TCP/IP for RSX are: >>> >>> Madame.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp). >>> >>> This is one of my development systems for this software. It runs under >>> E11, and if things are down, I blame E11. :-) >>> When connected, you are already in the right directory. There is both an >>> RL02 disk image there, which can be downloaded by anyone. If you happen >>> to have an RSX system which you are conneting from, you can also try >>> getting the BQTCP.TAP tape image. Such an image will not transport >>> cleanly to a non-RSX system, however. Sorry. >>> >>> ftp.Update.UU.SE (anonymous ftp) - /pub/pdp11/rsx/tcpip >>> The disk image is normally duplicated to ftp.update.uu.se as well, so >>> the same file can be found there. >>> >>> I hope some people will find this useful/amusing. :-) >>> >>> Johnny Billquist >>> >> >> > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Mar 17 10:41:44 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers and >> game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. [...] > This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or > whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't > describe in any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, > timing). [...] You might want to update Wikipedia, then; its article on NTSC begins its second paragraph with The first NTSC standard was developed in 1941 and had no provision for color. The PAL article, though, _does_ say it's a colour encoding scheme; SECAM too. In any case, even if you're (strictly speaking) right, the terms get used to refer to other aspects of the signal that usually uses that colour scheme, so it's not entirely unreasonable to use them as the original post did. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 17 11:17:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:17:32 -0700 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5508539C.5030109@sydex.com> On 03/17/2015 03:45 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or > whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't describe in > any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, timing). They > only describe how to put colour information into the signal. Regardless, isn't this discussed in detail in the "Understanding the Apple II" books by Jim Sather? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 17 11:24:13 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:24:13 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Mouse wrote: > >>> I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers and >>> game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. [...] > >> This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or >> whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't >> describe in any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, >> timing). [...] > > You might want to update Wikipedia, then; its article on NTSC begins > its second paragraph with > > The first NTSC standard was developed in 1941 and had no provision for > color. Sounds right to me. NTSC is the standards body. When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?. > The PAL article, though, _does_ say it's a colour encoding scheme; > SECAM too. And indeed those two acronyms name a particular color transmission mechanism. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 17 11:40:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150317164057.BB11D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > The power draw of the 11/45 and 11/70 is almost the same, with the > exception of the separate memory box(es) Well, the 11/70 does have the cache, the UNIBUS map, etc that the 11/45 does not. I forget how many extra cards that all works out to, but my vague memory is that it's roughly half a dozen. Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 17 11:47:15 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:47:15 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317164057.BB11D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150317164057.BB11D18C0D0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55085A93.3020707@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 17:40, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Eric Smith > > > The power draw of the 11/45 and 11/70 is almost the same, with the > > exception of the separate memory box(es) > > Well, the 11/70 does have the cache, the UNIBUS map, etc that the 11/45 does > not. I forget how many extra cards that all works out to, but my vague memory > is that it's roughly half a dozen. Cache is four cards, the unibus map is one. I doubt the Unibus map draws much of any current, though. The cache I would suspect is at least some. But I doubt this is any significant amount in the bigger picture. Johnny From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 13:30:10 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:30:10 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <550820CD.3050505@sbcglobal.net> References: <550820CD.3050505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:40 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Shouldn't the title be VCFMW 1010 ? Hah, yeah...we haven't done the shirts or any "branding'" yet so maybe it will. Defcon alread did the hexidecimal thing with their 10th being "0A." From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 17 13:33:39 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:33:39 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: References: <550820CD.3050505@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00ac01d060e0$e3d67d50$ab8377f0$@classiccmp.org> ...Defcon alread did the hexidecimal thing with their 10th being "0A." 012 because Octal is where it's at ;) From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 14:03:30 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:03:30 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: > Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire > 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require > another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. > > Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out > a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing > to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). Plus since they're modern devices, they would be a massive upgrade to the PDP-11/70s performance in place of its normal MOS memory or core memory. (Whether it would be an improvement on the speed of the PEP70, I do not know.) Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 17 14:06:18 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:06:18 -0700 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <20150316143357.0E27C2073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20150316143357.0E27C2073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <731AA55D-BCC3-40E3-9587-2DB634D2A55F@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-16, at 7:20 AM, John Foust wrote: > I'm trying to understand at a low level how some early computers > and game consoles generated a non-standard form of NTSC. > > The Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-definition_television says: > > "Older video game consoles and home computers generated a nonstandard NTSC > or PAL signal which sent a single field type which prevented fields from > interlacing. This is equivalent to 240p and 288p respectively, and was > used due to requiring less resources and producing a progressive > and stable signal." > > Another source says this was true for the "NTSC Atari 2600, Apple II > family, Commodore 64, Nintendo Entertainment System, Sega Master > System, and the vast majority of games for NTSC Genesis, Super NES, > PlayStation, and Nintendo 64." > > This page http://www.hdretrovision.com/240p/ calls it a "special timing > signal" and gives examples of how contemporary flat-panel TVs can > misinterpret the old signal. The issue has spawned the creation of > dozen of devices to give the retro look on new TVs. If you're just referring to the interlaced vs. 'progressive' scan issue, it comes down to the relationship between the vertical and horizontal scan rates. The standard RS-170/NTSC sync-pulse frequencies of V=60Hz and H=15,750Hz [*], give an H/V ratio of 262.5, which of course is the number of lines which will be scanned during the vertical scan period. The half fraction results in the vertical sync ' interrupting' the last line of half the scan fields half way through the line and the first line of the other half of the fields starting halfway through the line so the fields are vertically offset slightly and thus interlaced. (Multiplying 262.5 by 2 gives the proper 525 NTSC lines per frame (and of course notice it's an odd number)). When ones looks at the V and H sync pulses in relation to each other, they are alternating/oscillating in relative phase to each other. In the properly-implemented standard, that alternating phase relationship necessitated equalizing pulses in the signal at twice the H rate around the V sync/retrace period to keep the old analog-implemented sync-separators happy. If the H/V ratio is adjusted slightly off the standard to an integral relation, for example by setting the H scan rate to 15,720Hz to give 262 (lines), the H & V sync pulses are always in the same phase relationship, and there's no interlacing. The altered scan rates were still within the sync-lock range of the analog TVs of the day, perhaps needing a slight tweaking of the horizontal-hold control. I was trying to find what the -exact- frequencies are for some of those early computer/game systems but nobody seems to want to readily present them on the interwebs. [*] In NTSC, the rates were adjusted slightly from the original B&W spec with the introduction of colour, to, 59.94 & 15,734; IIRC, to deal with the colour information in the signal displaying artifacts when displayed on existing B&W TVs. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 17 14:27:22 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:27:22 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> > On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: >> Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire >> 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require >> another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. >> >> Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out >> a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing >> to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. > True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM > than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then > you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, > like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if > you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). MRAM is non-volatile, sure. I?m not sure its write limit is high enough to be used as a substitute for main memory. In any case, what PDP-11 operating systems use the non-volatility of memory? I know of one: RSTS-11. But RSTS/E dropped that (it reboots on powerup instead). That makes sense, given that semiconductor memory appeared fairly early in the PDP-11 product life, and none of that came with battery backup. In other words, only some of the models in some configurations offered non-volatile memory, which made it fairly uninteresting for operating systems to support. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 14:32:19 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:32:19 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > True, SRAM would be cheaper... a massive upgrade to the PDP-11/70s performance > in place of its normal MOS memory or core memory You can get some pretty fast SRAM for not much money, and 4MB isn't "that much" in terms of part count. I'd love to replace an MK11 and several cards with that PEP70, but I doubt I'll ever see one. As for MRAM, unless you have a full front panel, I don't think non-volatility is as important as raw performance. Sure... it's nice to be able to walk up and turn the key (I do that on a PDP-8/L with power-fail restart) but really... how hard is it to log in, shut down the OS then power off? I'd rather have a faster machine while I'm using it. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 17 14:39:21 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:39:21 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2015, at 12:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire >>> 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require >>> another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. >>> >>> Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out >>> a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing >>> to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. >> True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM >> than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then >> you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, >> like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if >> you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). > > MRAM is non-volatile, sure. I?m not sure its write limit is high enough to be used as a substitute for main memory. In any case, what PDP-11 operating systems use the non-volatility of memory? I know of one: RSTS-11. But RSTS/E dropped that (it reboots on powerup instead). That makes sense, given that semiconductor memory appeared fairly early in the PDP-11 product life, and none of that came with battery backup. In other words, only some of the models in some configurations offered non-volatile memory, which made it fairly uninteresting for operating systems to support. The parts that I've been looking at have unlimited write endurance and >20 year data retention. I'm using MRAM in my MEM11 board (seems the previous FRAM vendor was bought out and no longer produce some of the parts I was planning on using) for emulation of main memory, ROMs and RF11 disks. They're also plenty fast enough at 35ns access times. TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 17 14:41:35 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:41:35 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 17, 2015, at 12:32 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > wrote: >> True, SRAM would be cheaper... a massive upgrade to the PDP-11/70s performance >> in place of its normal MOS memory or core memory > > You can get some pretty fast SRAM for not much money, and 4MB isn't > "that much" in terms of part count. > > I'd love to replace an MK11 and several cards with that PEP70, but I > doubt I'll ever see one. > > As for MRAM, unless you have a full front panel, I don't think > non-volatility is as important as raw performance. Sure... it's nice > to be able to walk up and turn the key (I do that on a PDP-8/L with > power-fail restart) but really... how hard is it to log in, shut down > the OS then power off? I'd rather have a faster machine while I'm > using it. Hmm. Maybe I should consider building a PEP-70 clone (I already have a PEP-70/Hypercache in my 11/70). It shouldn't be too hard to do (as has been mentioned before). TTFN - Guy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 17 14:46:19 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:46:19 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7BEC9C39-B5B0-4607-B75E-1C7B7BF027F8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-17, at 12:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire >>> 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require >>> another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. >>> >>> Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out >>> a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing >>> to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. >> True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM >> than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then >> you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, >> like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if >> you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). > > MRAM is non-volatile, sure. I?m not sure its write limit is high enough to be used as a substitute for main memory. In any case, what PDP-11 operating systems use the non-volatility of memory? I know of one: RSTS-11. But RSTS/E dropped that (it reboots on powerup instead). That makes sense, given that semiconductor memory appeared fairly early in the PDP-11 product life, and none of that came with battery backup. In other words, only some of the models in some configurations offered non-volatile memory, which made it fairly uninteresting for operating systems to support. Well, even if the OSs didn't support restart, non-volatility of core was useful for retention of the bootstrap program on the front-panel/pre-boot-ROM machines, just so you didn't have to re-toggle the bootstrap at every power-up. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 17 14:47:16 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 20:47:16 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150317194716.GA9804@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:41:35PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Hmm. Maybe I should consider building a PEP-70 clone (I already > have a PEP-70/Hypercache in my 11/70). It shouldn't be too hard > to do (as has been mentioned before). > I have found fairly little documentation on the PEP and HC. Do you have any schematics? /P From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 17 14:50:13 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 12:50:13 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317194716.GA9804@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> <20150317194716.GA9804@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2015, at 12:47 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:41:35PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> Hmm. Maybe I should consider building a PEP-70 clone (I already >> have a PEP-70/Hypercache in my 11/70). It shouldn't be too hard >> to do (as has been mentioned before). >> > > I have found fairly little documentation on the PEP and HC. Do you have > any schematics? The documentation that I have is basically operation and installation. AFAIK there is no other documentation. However, the 11/70 schematics should be sufficient to replicate them. TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 17 14:51:10 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:51:10 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <7BEC9C39-B5B0-4607-B75E-1C7B7BF027F8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> <7BEC9C39-B5B0-4607-B75E-1C7B7BF027F8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7939F30C-B9F0-44A9-8480-74674535AA54@comcast.net> > On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2015-Mar-17, at 12:27 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> ... >> MRAM is non-volatile, sure. I?m not sure its write limit is high enough to be used as a substitute for main memory. In any case, what PDP-11 operating systems use the non-volatility of memory? I know of one: RSTS-11. But RSTS/E dropped that (it reboots on powerup instead). That makes sense, given that semiconductor memory appeared fairly early in the PDP-11 product life, and none of that came with battery backup. In other words, only some of the models in some configurations offered non-volatile memory, which made it fairly uninteresting for operating systems to support. > > Well, even if the OSs didn't support restart, non-volatility of core was useful for retention of the bootstrap program on the front-panel/pre-boot-ROM machines, just so you didn't have to re-toggle the bootstrap at every power-up. True, though I think in practice PDP-11s came with boot ROMs. Even fairly early 11/20s did ? the M792 discrete diode array, programmed with diagonal cutters :-). paul From radiotest at juno.com Tue Mar 17 14:58:29 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:58:29 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?. "NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. I spent four years as Chief Engineer of a couple of NTSC stations. Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 17 15:04:59 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:04:59 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20150317200459.GA13663@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:39:21PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >The parts that I've been looking at have unlimited write endurance and >20 >year data retention. I'd be slightly worried that there are conditions being assumed here, even if the MRAM data sheet doesn't seem to say so. F-RAM claimed unlimited writes, but under slightly cherry-picked conditions that might be exceeded after all. You could certainly write the whole memory from beginning to end all day long, but whaling on just a small area (like the stack) could be trouble. Obviously I hope I'm wrong -- MRAM *looks* wonderful! I used battery-backed SRAM in the Unibus RAM card I prototyped a while back (and just recently got working and have been finishing the XMOS firmware for). The SRAM is cheap and fast and draws hardly any current (so it's nothing like a lead-acid BBU setup -- AAs are fine and a CR2032 might even last a while, so I've got one dangling off for testing to see if Rev B should have coin cell holders), and once the battery is there, it's a nice excuse for a TOY clock (my favorite KDJ11E feature that all PDP-11s would benefit from). John Wilson D Bit From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 17 15:06:46 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?. > > "NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined > analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current > receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same Color. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 15:08:26 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:08:26 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hmm. Maybe I should consider building a PEP-70 clone (I already > have a PEP-70/Hypercache in my 11/70). It shouldn't be too hard > to do (as has been mentioned before). As much as I would like one (or two), what's the actual market for such a thing? How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 17 15:13:00 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:13:00 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55088ACC.5090401@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 20:03, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: >> Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire >> 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require >> another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. >> >> Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out >> a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing >> to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. > True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM > than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then > you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, > like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if > you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). Plus since they're modern > devices, they would be a massive upgrade to the PDP-11/70s performance > in place of its normal MOS memory or core memory. (Whether it would be > an improvement on the speed of the PEP70, I do not know.) You can't improve on the speed of the PIP70/HC70 combo. At that point, the speed is just the clock speed of the CPU. It no longer waits on memory, as far as I know. But getting to that point would be a nice improvement already. Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 17 15:17:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:17:03 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55088BBF.3010306@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 20:27, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 17, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> On 16 March 2015 at 23:42, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Not including parity or ECC, it takes two devices to fill the entire >>> 4MB address space of the PDP-11/70. Either parity or ECC will require >>> another one additional device, which won't be fully utilized. >>> >>> Ordinary SRAM is cheaper, but $110.16 for enough RAM chips to max out >>> a PDP-11/70 doesn't seem all that expensive, unless you're comparing >>> to DDR SDRAM DIMMs for PCs. >> True, SRAM would be cheaper, and you can find faster SRAM and DRAM >> than the currently available MRAM (if I recall correctly). But then >> you lose the benefits of MRAM in the first place: It's non-volatile, >> like core memory, and doesn't need battery backup (as you'd need if >> you wanted to make SRAM "non-volatile"). > > MRAM is non-volatile, sure. I?m not sure its write limit is high enough to be used as a substitute for main memory. In any case, what PDP-11 operating systems use the non-volatility of memory? I know of one: RSTS-11. But RSTS/E dropped that (it reboots on powerup instead). That makes sense, given that semiconductor memory appeared fairly early in the PDP-11 product life, and none of that came with battery backup. In other words, only some of the models in some configurations offered non-volatile memory, which made it fairly uninteresting for operating systems to support. RSX supports suspending on power fail, and resume at power on... Johnny From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Mar 17 15:20:31 2015 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:20:31 -0700 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> Message-ID: <000701d060ef$d18f63f0$74ae2bd0$@comcast.net> The French standard is SECAM, which stands for "System Essentially Contrary to American Method" Michael -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 2015 1:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?. > > "NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined > analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current > receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same Color. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 17 15:20:48 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 13:20:48 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317200459.GA13663@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> <20150317200459.GA13663@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2015, at 1:04 PM, John Wilson wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:39:21PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> The parts that I've been looking at have unlimited write endurance and >20 >> year data retention. > > I'd be slightly worried that there are conditions being assumed here, even > if the MRAM data sheet doesn't seem to say so. F-RAM claimed unlimited > writes, but under slightly cherry-picked conditions that might be exceeded > after all. You could certainly write the whole memory from beginning to > end all day long, but whaling on just a small area (like the stack) could > be trouble. Obviously I hope I'm wrong -- MRAM *looks* wonderful! > > I used battery-backed SRAM in the Unibus RAM card I prototyped a while back > (and just recently got working and have been finishing the XMOS firmware > for). The SRAM is cheap and fast and draws hardly any current (so it's > nothing like a lead-acid BBU setup -- AAs are fine and a CR2032 might even > last a while, so I've got one dangling off for testing to see if Rev B > should have coin cell holders), and once the battery is there, it's a nice > excuse for a TOY clock (my favorite KDJ11E feature that all PDP-11s would > benefit from). Since I'm using the MRAM to store not only PDP-11 boot ROMs but also the J1 code that makes the whole thing work, I'm really hesitant about using anything that isn't truely non-volatile. TTFN - Guy From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 17 15:22:49 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:22:49 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <9DC6FCD7-A196-4D3D-9658-0DD0E43E0A06@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20150317202249.GB9804@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:08:26PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Hmm. Maybe I should consider building a PEP-70 clone (I already > > have a PEP-70/Hypercache in my 11/70). It shouldn't be too hard > > to do (as has been mentioned before). > > As much as I would like one (or two), what's the actual market for > such a thing? How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? Quite a few I would think. We have no less then three at the club. And of the top of my head there are at least three more owners on this list. Given how many of the more rare machines people have, I'd venture that there are at least 25, if not more, 11/70 machines in private hands. /P From radiotest at juno.com Tue Mar 17 15:24:48 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:24:48 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20150317162121.03f6c5e0@juno.com> At 04:06 PM 3/17/2015, geneb wrote: >Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same Color. :) TV engineers often referred to it that way, and to PAL as "Picture Always Lousy" and SECAM as "Something Exceedingly Contrary to the American Method." :-) Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Mar 17 15:36:52 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:36:52 -0500 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: <20150317203652.GA18361@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 08:45:49AM -0400, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Update: Unfortunately, I think I'm at a dead end. After cleaning > everything up, I am still at the "A" in the "Bring Up" program that isn't > very far but it's better than garbage. Well, you've gotten farther than I ever did. I've had one of these, or a similar model, for a couple of decades or so. I was at a friend's house one day and saw it out on their front porch. They were tossing it. They said one of their kids picked it up somewhere. They also claimed that they had it checked at Radio Shack and it only needed an inexpensive part. Anyway, I saved it and its printer from being tossed. It wouldn't power up at all. I'm not a hardware person, and never found the right tools to open it up. Sadly it got left at my parents place along with some other stuff when I moved up to the area I'm in now. When I went to collect said stuff I found the computer and its printer outside in a wheel barrel, with its power cord cut off. My father claims I told him it was "junk." Aaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggg!! It had been rained on, and there was standing water in the wheel barrel. The printer was so rusted up I tossed it. I wish now I'd kept it even if it was too far gone to save. I still have the 5100, or whatever model it is. In case the previous torture it endured wasn't enough it's been out in my garage for years. I probably don't want to know what shape it's in internally. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 17 16:02:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > I used battery-backed SRAM in the Unibus RAM card I prototyped a while > back (and just recently got working and have been finishing the XMOS > firmware for). UNIBUS RAM cards? Neato-keeno!! When will they be available, and how do I order some? :-) BTW, what's an 'XMOS'? Google didn't enlighten me... > From: Ethan Dicks > As much as I would like one (or two), what's the actual market for such > a thing? Oh, probably almost as large as all the other custom UNIBUS/PDP-11 cards people are building these days... :-) > I'd rather have a faster machine while I'm using it. Somehow, I'm thinking that if it's speed we're after, a hardware PDP-11 isn't where I'd turn... :-) Noel From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:12:30 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 22:12:30 +0100 Subject: DEC manuals: interest to scan it? Message-ID: <550898BE.8050608@gmail.com> Ok, I will scan in this way... I just ordered an used semi-pro HP scanner with front/back ADF... I hope it will arrive sooner. In the end, when the documents will be ready, I will but them on dropbox. Whom should I send the link then? Andrea From mspproductions at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:13:32 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:13:32 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150317162121.03f6c5e0@juno.com> References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317162121.03f6c5e0@juno.com> Message-ID: Another one for PAL People Always Lavender On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:24 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 04:06 PM 3/17/2015, geneb wrote: > > >Today I learned that NTSC doesn't actually stand for Never Twice Same > Color. :) > > TV engineers often referred to it that way, and to PAL as "Picture Always > Lousy" and SECAM as "Something Exceedingly Contrary to the American > Method." :-) > > Dale H. Cook, Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:20:09 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:20:09 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > As much as I would like one (or two), what's the actual market for such > > a thing? > > Oh, probably almost as large as all the other custom UNIBUS/PDP-11 cards > people are building these days... :-) I kinda have to disagree there... the RAM card John is talking about works in *lots* of machines, most importantly, 11/20 (there are a few out there and expansion opportunities are limited), 11/34 (there are lots of them out there) and anything where you want to use the device capabilities (it's a disk controller + RAM). A PDP-11/70 RAM card works in one type of machine that was not terribly common and there can't be more than a few dozen total in hobbyist hands. > > I'd rather have a faster machine while I'm using it. > > Somehow, I'm thinking that if it's speed we're after, a hardware PDP-11 isn't > where I'd turn... :-) In my case, I already have 4MB of MOS, in 8 cards loaded with 4116 DRAMs... I don't need to run it 24/7 so, yes, even though a single card sucks up less power than a cage of RAM cards and is cheaper to run, I'm unlikely to ever lay hands on a PEP70 card and I'd really like the speed bonus of fast SRAM in a single card that I _can_ get. I'd also like a modern disk controller, but Unibus SCSI is quite rare (and not the problem we are addressing here). There's clearly no reason to make a slow 4MB card. Worst case, add a toggle switch for 250ns memory cycle time for that 1978 feel. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 17 11:40:03 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 09:40:03 -0700 Subject: 360/50 microcode listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550858E3.50009@bitsavers.org> On 3/16/15 11:42 PM, Henk Stegeman wrote: > Did the CHM also obtained the other volemes ? > no, just vol 18-20 From steve at tronola.com Tue Mar 17 07:58:42 2015 From: steve at tronola.com (Stephen Lafferty) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 08:58:42 -0400 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55082502.1070401@tronola.com> > You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices... --- This article presents a simple 1702 programmer you can build: http://www.tronola.com/html/1702a_prom_programmer.html (Shameless plug... :) Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 10:08:36 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 11:08:36 -0400 Subject: Recommendation for a PROM burner In-Reply-To: <55082502.1070401@tronola.com> References: <55082502.1070401@tronola.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 8:58 AM, Stephen Lafferty wrote: >> You won't find ANYTHING that supports 1702 devices... > > --- This article presents a simple 1702 programmer you can build: > http://www.tronola.com/html/1702a_prom_programmer.html Nice! I have a board of 1702s I picked up long ago, probably from a surplus place on High St before it became our hipster gallery district. The edge card fingers were already chopped off (I think it was a board from a local company, Accuray, now owned by ABB Process Automation) but it's a pad of 2x4 1702s in sockets, ready for new code. I might even have an old 70s micro that _needs_ a 1702. I certainly have a couple of 4004s, and those play nice together ISTR (PMOS). Thanks! -ethan From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:28:43 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:28:43 -0600 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <731AA55D-BCC3-40E3-9587-2DB634D2A55F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20150316143357.0E27C2073C33@huey.classiccmp.org> <731AA55D-BCC3-40E3-9587-2DB634D2A55F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > [*] In NTSC, the rates were adjusted slightly from the original B&W spec with the introduction of colour, to, 59.94 & 15,734; IIRC, to deal with the colour information in the signal displaying artifacts when displayed on existing B&W TVs. No, the 1000/1001 change doesn't in any way prevent that. Instead televisions use filters to remove the color carrier from the luminance. Originally this was done with low-pass filters, which significantly reduced the available luminance bandwidth, and thus horizontal luminance resolution. Starting in the 1980s (or maybe late 1970s?) comb filters were used that could better separate the luma and chroma with less degradation of the horizontal luma resolution, though it is imperfect so there still are some artifacts such as dot crawl. What the 1000/1001 sync rate change did was reduce the interference between the color information and the 4.5 MHz sound subcarrier used on broadcast. The problem actually was not an issue for the transmitting and receiving equipment of the day, but became an issue years later with comb filters. The NTSC committee requested that the FCC change the audio subcarrier frequency by 1001/1000, which would not have caused any problem whatsoever, but for whatever inscrutable bureacratic reason the FCC didn't want to do that, to they changed EVERYTHING ELSE by 1000/1001 instead, causing all manner of annoying issues, such as a frame rate error when converting film by telecine, and the abomination of drop-frame time code. From wilson at dbit.com Tue Mar 17 16:45:49 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:45:49 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 05:02:37PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >UNIBUS RAM cards? Neato-keeno!! When will they be available, and how do I >order some? :-) I think Guy's MEM11 is going to be way cooler. I made my board in 2012 to scratch my own itch (but then didn't get it running in time and had to spend real money on an MS11LD after all), and it's a memory-only device so it plugs into the A/B positions of a MUD/SPC slot, which makes it useless on an 11/20 which doesn't have those (right? unless you add a BA11K?), and can't emulate anything that does DMA or interrupts (but that still leaves a few things). I'll be doing a new rev one of these months (to incorporate ECOs and battery holders and add more devices, now that I did the CRC emulation for E11 anyway) and then I'll certainly make them available, but not seriously expecting anyone to order one. Guy's MEM11 is nicer! >BTW, what's an 'XMOS'? Google didn't enlighten me... Sorry -- XMOS is the successor-in-spirit to Inmos. They make the XS-1 microcontrollers, which are wonderful (eight hyperthreads at 50-100 MIPS each, with a lousy base instruction set but fantastic event handling and timers and locks and inter-hyperthread pipes -- in half a dozen projects I've never needed to use interrupts). I used it instead of loose logic for range checking and decoding MSYN/C0/C1 and generating SSYN just because it was worth the cost savings in PCB sqinches at qty=1, and still way faster than a real MS11L. But now that it's there, it makes all kinds of device emulations easy (TOY clock for starters). Plus it's jumperless -- it's perfectly easy to have a hyperthread bit-bang a UART so there's a DLV11J-style plug for a TTY that does config, and there's already flash in the RTCC chip (besides what's hanging off the XMOS CPU). Naturally I've gotten way sidetracked writing that firmware; XON/XOFF works, you can delete tabs w/o messing up the cursor, it figures out the day of the week if you say "set date 17-Mar-2015", etc. Totally out of hand. Speaking of sidetracked, I'm intrigued by the Enable/34 discussion. I was thinking of making Rev B have 4 MB memory anyway, since it sounds (from the MS11P manual) as if the 11/24 and 11/44 extended Unibus would be easy to support as an option (seems like the four extra address bits on AN1, AP1, BE1, and BE2 are all that's new, and the I/O page still works normally in the highest 8 KB even though it's mostly a memory-only bus). But for 18-bit machines, emulating the Enable thingy might be fun for a tiny handful of people, which is always enough to justify months of work in my book. Even if it means adding parts to diddle the address bus. But thinking about how it must work hurts my head. It's emulating Unibus memory at the same time that it's emulating the Unibus map -- i.e. CPU accesses (which should be relocated through the onboard PARs) are coming over the same bus as DMA (which should be relocated using the Unibus Map). How does it know which is which? Does it need to tap into each model of CPU somehow (like how a Microverter gets at MMR3)? Or is it something simple like, BBSY is never asserted by the CPU (not obvious from docs -- the CPU doesn't need to negotiate to become a master but it still is one when it's accessing memory) so if it's on, this is DMA? And what if there's a cache, like the KK11A, that doesn't know about the outboard PARs? Anyway here's a picture of Rev A: http://www.dbit.com/wilson/uram.jpg John Wilson D Bit From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 17 16:54:09 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:54:09 -0600 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317200459.GA13663@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150316232750.BD34D18C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9EC13917-6D8E-4D8E-A4F0-6E0785D9CA3B@comcast.net> <4F47272E-7FE7-4981-9EA6-E19DD888BB8D@comcast.net> <20150317200459.GA13663@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:04 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 12:39:21PM -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>The parts that I've been looking at have unlimited write endurance and >20 >>year data retention. > > I'd be slightly worried that there are conditions being assumed here, even > if the MRAM data sheet doesn't seem to say so. F-RAM claimed unlimited > writes, but under slightly cherry-picked conditions that might be exceeded > after all. The Ramtron FRAM data sheets always gave the actual endurance, which on 3.3V parts was typically 10^14 cycles, and applied to both read and write cycles. MRAM works by an entirely different principle, and neither read nor write cycles cause any significant physical or chemical stress, so the endurance is as close to unlimited as makes no difference. The part will wear out for other reasons before it wears out due to too many accesses. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Mar 17 16:59:26 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 16:59:26 -0500 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <20150317203652.GA18361@RawFedDogs.net> References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> <20150317203652.GA18361@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20150317215926.GA24629@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 03:36:52PM -0500, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > I've had one of these, or a similar model, for a couple of decades or so. I just got home and checked. What I have is a similar model - a 5110. Mine appears to be a model 2 without internal tape or floppy drives. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 17 17:02:14 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 15:02:14 -0700 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5F03CDB2-11F1-41D5-AEBE-ED1949EE72C5@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 17, 2015, at 2:45 PM, John Wilson wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 05:02:37PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> UNIBUS RAM cards? Neato-keeno!! When will they be available, and how do I >> order some? :-) > > I think Guy's MEM11 is going to be way cooler. I made my board in 2012 > to scratch my own itch (but then didn't get it running in time and had to > spend real money on an MS11LD after all), and it's a memory-only device so > it plugs into the A/B positions of a MUD/SPC slot, which makes it useless > on an 11/20 which doesn't have those (right? unless you add a BA11K?), > and can't emulate anything that does DMA or interrupts (but that still > leaves a few things). > > I'll be doing a new rev one of these months (to incorporate ECOs and > battery holders and add more devices, now that I did the CRC emulation for > E11 anyway) and then I'll certainly make them available, but not seriously > expecting anyone to order one. Guy's MEM11 is nicer! Thanks! I'm in the midst of writing a J1 emulator so that I can better debug all of the forth code I've been writing. Looks like it'll be sometime this summer by the time I can get a prototype built. :-( > > > Anyway here's a picture of Rev A: > > http://www.dbit.com/wilson/uram.jpg > Cool looking little board! TTFN - Guy From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Tue Mar 17 18:08:24 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 00:08:24 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <62B73720-4274-4F24-BC1C-69F8F57E7FEA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503172308.t2HN8Px2024015-t2HN8Px3024015@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Dear All, I wish to update about my work. I received finally a couple of LB1620 from Arizona. Italian custom got them for a lot of time. Well I desoldered it from the pcb and I checked between +24vdc and ground for not have any shortcircuit. Good thing. I algo put away the circuit with a resistor and a zener diode and insert a new 7809 ic to give a good power of 9vdc to pins: 19,9 and 12 of the lb1620. powering with +24vdc the spindle motor its not rotate. As you can see from the its pics from here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 there is a tirdh input pin in the connector: what is it use? Is goes to pin5 of the C358C as input of the operational IC. On each pin of the engine I misured a +4,6 vdc respect to the gnd. I have also a scope but what have I to checK? Thanks so much for any suggestion. Enrico From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 17 18:12:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150317231230.14D1C18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > But for 18-bit machines, emulating the Enable thingy might be fun for a > tiny handful of people, which is always enough to justify months of > work in my book. D'accord! :-) > But thinking about how it must work hurts my head. OK, let me give you my best understanding/recollection of how it works. The UNIBUS from the CPU is pretty much only used as a CPU<->ENABLE bus. The CPU does reads/writes (which all go to the ENABLE) on it, and interrupts from devices come in on it, but that's all. (I don't think the CPU did NPR arbitration any more.) The CPU's internal PARs are used to distribute various chunks of CPU address space across that UNIBUS' address space. Most code set up that mapping statically at startup, and afterwards played only with the PARs in the ENABLE (which could map chunks of the UNIBUS space to the 22-bit address space) from then on. With a total of 256KB of UNIBUS address space, that means it will hold a full-sized Kernel I+D, and a full-sized User I+D. There is therefore no Supervisor (I or D), _unless_ you skimp on one of the other 4, or dynamically re-allocate the address space in the CPU<->ENABLE UNIBUS (e.g. when switching from User to Super). The Enable had two (maybe three) other bus connections: one was a device UNIBUS in/out (for all DMA, and possibly other, devices), one was the 22-bit address memory bus, and the potential third was the bus to the optional cache. (Except I think maybe the latter two were combined into one; see below.) In theory you could put non-DMA devices on the CPU<->ENABLE UNIBUS, but I don't know if anyone did. The second UNIBUS had a UNIBUS map on the end of it inside the ENABLE, through which all incoming DMA cycles were fed to the 22-bit memory. So, NPR cycles on it acted just like those on the 11/70's UNIBUS (they even used the same register locations/etc, so programming-wise an 11 with the ENABLE looked just like an 11/70, as far as the UNIBUS went). There are code/.h files which give all the register locations, bits in the CSR, etc so it should be possible to build a replica (so that existing code for it still works). If you look at a picture of an ENABLE (there's one in the Product Summary), it's a hex card which has i) the normal edge connector, ii) a pair of DuPont headers (which are, I'm pretty sure, the cache connector), and iii) a UNIBUS connector stuck on the top edge of the card. I think one UNIBUS came in the edge fingers (but I could be wrong, that's just a guess); the other clearly used the one of the top of the card. I don't know if it plugged into a 'normal' Extended UNIBUS system unit, or if it was a special backplane that Able supplied. I suspect the latter, because one way or another, that backplane had to have normal UNIBUS on either the input or output A/B slots, and I can't see how that would work with EUB memory cards plugged into that backplane. But maybe I'm missing something? (This is why I'd really like to have the documentation - to see how it was hooked up. How it worked, I can tell from looking at the software.) It's possible the cache connector doubled as the memory bus; all memory cycles would have been sent out that connector to the optional cache card, and if it hit, cycle done; if not, it went out (over the backplane?) to the EUB memory. So maybe if there was no cache, there was a different 'null' card there with a connector for the ribbon cable, and minimal circuitry, to connect up to the EUB - but that's a pure guess. Another possibility is that only the cache used the DuPont connectors, and memory cycles went out other 'fingers' on the edge connectors. (Grr! Wish we had installation instructions!!) It would really help to know if the ENABLE needed a special backplane. Maybe someone can look at the one at Update, and see what kind of backplane it's plugged into? That could also tell us whether the UNIBUS connector on the back edge was the 'in' or 'out' UNIBUS. (And of course they should make sure their card looks like the one in the Product Summary brochure!) > It's emulating Unibus memory at the same time that it's emulating the > Unibus map -- i.e. CPU accesses (which should be relocated through the > onboard PARs) are coming over the same bus as DMA (which should be > relocated using the Unibus Map). Nope. Two separate UNIBI. > Does it need to tap into each model of CPU somehow (like how a > Microverter gets at MMR3)? AFAIK, it doesn't connect up to the CPU at all. > And what if there's a cache, like the KK11A, that doesn't know about > the outboard PARs? Good question! Probably you should pitch the KK11A, and use Able's optional cache for the ENABLE. Or flush the KK11A whenever you change the mapping (does the KK11A have a register to do that)? The one thing I'm still confused about is that I'm pretty sure that on our 11/45, with the ENABLE and its cache, running 'mips' produced 3. But could it really get that much speed out of the UNIBUS? I had thought that somehow the one we had plugged into the FastBus on the 11/45, but maybe my memory is (somehow) playing tricks on me? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 17 18:30:21 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 19:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150317233021.A2B6F18C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Wilson > I think Guy's MEM11 is going to be way cooler. ... I'll be doing a new > rev one of these months ... and then I'll certainly make them > available, but not seriously expecting anyone to order one. Guy's MEM11 > is nicer! Yeah, but for some machines I wouldn't mind having pure memory boards. > it plugs into the A/B positions of a MUD/SPC slot, which makes it > useless on an 11/20 which doesn't have those (right? unless you add a > BA11K?) I haven't checked, but I suspect there might be a way to power like a DD11-C through some sort of conversion plug, but I'm not up on 11/20 power (would have to read the H720 manual, which I'm too lazy to do). > Naturally I've gotten way sidetracked writing that firmware ... > Totally out of hand. Hah, what else is life for? :-) > it sounds (from the MS11P manual) as if the 11/24 and 11/44 extended > Unibus would be easy to support as an option (seems like the four extra > address bits on AN1, AP1, BE1, and BE2 are all that's new I'm pretty sure. If you look at the MS11-M prints (FMPS #742, pg. 4), they have a jumper called 'UNIBUS/Extended UNIBUS' and basically all it does is disable listening to those 4 extra bus address lines. (It also affects CSR stuff, but not the basic memory operation, other than disabling the 4 extra address lines.) I've got some MS11-P cards (which are now really cheap, compared to real UNIBUS MOS memory) here, and I'm planning on hacking them so they are UNIBUS cards, via a similar hack. (I'm not going to use MS11-M cards because they use some wierd voltage that's only easily available in the 11/44; the MS11-P's use +5V only.) Noel From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 17 19:56:07 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 17:56:07 -0700 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503172308.t2HN8Px2024015-t2HN8Px3024015@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503172308.t2HN8Px2024015-t2HN8Px3024015@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <4685ACBC-F114-4602-BA6B-B1D5A2CEED43@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Mar-17, at 4:08 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > I wish to update about my work. I received finally a couple of LB1620 from > Arizona. Italian custom got them for a lot of time. Well I desoldered it > from the pcb and I checked between +24vdc and ground for not have any > shortcircuit. Good thing. I algo put away the circuit with a resistor and a > zener diode and insert a new 7809 ic to give a good power of 9vdc to pins: > 19,9 and 12 of the lb1620. powering with +24vdc the spindle motor its not > rotate. As you can see from the its pics from here: > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 > there is a tirdh input pin in the connector: what is it use? Is goes to pin5 > of the C358C as input of the operational IC. On each pin of the engine I > misured a +4,6 vdc respect to the gnd. > I have also a scope but what have I to checK? Looking at your photos, I think I can trace the 3rd connector pin to (LM358).5 as you say, the other input looks like it comes from a voltage divider, the output looks like it goes to a transistor and then on to (TL9142).11, which from the datasheet is the play/stop control. So it looks like that 3rd pin is a motor on/off input, using an op-amp as comparator for sensing the control input. You could try pulling the 3rd connector pin up to +5V through a (say) 10K limiting resistor, to see if it turns on, but we won't really know what the trip voltage is without knowing the voltage divider resistor values. If you'd like continued assistance, I have to ask you to take a couple of better-resolution photos of the top and bottom of the board(s), so we can make a decent schematic. Then we might be able to figure out some voltages or signals to test for, to check whether any of the other semiconductors were damaged by the previous bad voltages. I'm also curious about D101 - is it really a diode? it sort of looks like a resistor in the photo - and what is the color code? From tracing it looks like it raises the GND leg of the 9142 IC, which would lower the supply voltage to that IC. From supervinx at libero.it Tue Mar 17 20:41:35 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 02:41:35 +0100 Subject: Siemens FDD-200-8P 8" floppy drive Message-ID: <1426642895.4621.6.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Hi! Do you know if the Siemens FDD-200-8P has a Shugart compatible interface? I found only a scanned manual, but it's incomplete, missing the last part with the interface specs. I had a Magnetic Peripherals drive which no 50-pin Shugart compatible interface. I need a drive to connect to the FDADAP adapter. Thanks! -- Vincenzo (aka Supervinx) --==ooOoo==-- My computer collection: http://www.supervinx.com/OnlineMuseum --==ooOoo==-- You can reach me at: www.supervinx.com www.facebook.com/supervinx http://www.youtube.com/user/supervinx http://www.myspace.com/supervinx From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 17 20:56:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 18:56:11 -0700 Subject: Siemens FDD-200-8P 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <1426642895.4621.6.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1426642895.4621.6.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <5508DB3B.30008@sydex.com> On 03/17/2015 06:41 PM, supervinx wrote: > Hi! > Do you know if the Siemens FDD-200-8P has a Shugart compatible > interface? > I found only a scanned manual, but it's incomplete, missing the last > part with the interface specs. Yup--I have two here that I run in the usual way. Look at the Siemens FDD-100 on bitsavers. The interface connections are pretty much the same, but for a side select signal. Pretty much a Shugart drop-in replacement. CHM apparently has a copy of the FDD200 OEM manual (collection id 102704183), but I don't think it's on bitsavers. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 18 01:02:10 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:02:10 +0000 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317162121.03f6c5e0@juno.com>, Message-ID: > Another one for PAL People Always Lavender Or 'Pay another licence' (refering to, I believe, a royalty payment to sell a true PAL decoder). Sony sold a TV set in the UK which avoided this by essentially treating PAL as NTSC and only decoding every other line of colour or something. I have the service information in one of my boxes of books. Apparently in the early days of colour TV (I do not know which system) they were doing closed- circuit tests. The camera was pointed at a known test subject, the image on the monitor was inspected and things were tweaked so it looked OK. One of the test subjects was a still life of a bowl of fruit. One day they just could not get a reasonable colour image no matter how much they fiddled with the phase shift controls, etc. And then somebody had the sense to look at the subject. Some joker had painted the banana blue... -tony From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 01:23:39 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 02:23:39 -0400 Subject: Surviving PDP-11 stats (was: Qbus split I&D?) Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:08:26PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >... How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? > > Quite a few I would think. We have no less then three at the club. And > of the top of my head there are at least three more owners on this list. > > Given how many of the more rare machines people have, I'd venture that > there are at least 25, if not more, 11/70 machines in private hands. > > /P > So, I've never thought of the 11/70 as being "that rare", but "at least 25" still sounds to me as being fairly uncommon as PDP-11's go? How (relatively) common are the remaining early 11's these days? With some lumping, and ignoring the F11/J11-based ones, in these categories: 20/15; 10/05; 40/35; 45; 50; 55; 60; 70; 34/04; 44? The last two I'm thinking are still quite common; really no idea about the others ... although the number of remaining 11/60's seems to be in the bare-handful category. 50's and 55's might be similarly low? ----- paul From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 03:19:06 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 03:19:06 -0500 Subject: Surviving PDP-11 stats (was: Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might be picking up a 55 this summer, and it's not even on my list. On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:08:26PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > >... How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? > > > > Quite a few I would think. We have no less then three at the club. And > > of the top of my head there are at least three more owners on this list. > > > > Given how many of the more rare machines people have, I'd venture that > > there are at least 25, if not more, 11/70 machines in private hands. > > > > /P > > > > So, I've never thought of the 11/70 as being "that rare", but "at least 25" > still sounds to me as being fairly uncommon as PDP-11's go? > > How (relatively) common are the remaining early 11's these days? With some > lumping, and ignoring the F11/J11-based ones, in these categories: 20/15; > 10/05; 40/35; 45; 50; 55; 60; 70; 34/04; 44? The last two I'm thinking are > still quite common; really no idea about the others ... although the number > of remaining 11/60's seems to be in the bare-handful category. 50's and > 55's might be similarly low? > > ----- > paul > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Wed Mar 18 03:26:01 2015 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:26:01 +0100 Subject: Siemens FDD-200-8P 8" floppy drive In-Reply-To: <5508DB3B.30008@sydex.com> References: <1426642895.4621.6.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> <5508DB3B.30008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55093699.60403@web.de> Am 18.03.2015 um 02:56 schrieb Chuck Guzis: > On 03/17/2015 06:41 PM, supervinx wrote: >> Hi! >> Do you know if the Siemens FDD-200-8P has a Shugart compatible >> interface? >> I found only a scanned manual, but it's incomplete, missing the last >> part with the interface specs. > > Yup--I have two here that I run in the usual way. Look at the > Siemens FDD-100 on bitsavers. The interface connections are pretty > much the same, but for a side select signal. > > Pretty much a Shugart drop-in replacement. > > CHM apparently has a copy of the FDD200 OEM manual (collection id > 102704183), but I don't think it's on bitsavers. > > --Chuck > > this manual should be the right one. http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/manuals/siemens_fdd200-8p.pdf From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 18 05:27:51 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:27:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Update: Unfortunately, I think I'm at a dead end. After cleaning > everything up, I am still at the "A" in the "Bring Up" program that isn't > very far but it's better than garbage. I removed both memory cards and get > garbage so the memory cards might be working (I have two and tried both > individually). I think my problem is in the "Basic I/O" card as indicated > in the Maintenance manual. I am also not able to get into the Diagnostics > screen because it must be failing too early. Either that or my keyboard > isn't working. It's hard to tell. What you don't say is whether the machine just halts, or stops with a machine check. Here's the relevant part of the Bring Up test 'A' from the 5110. Since I still haven't got a 5100 I can't verify what the 5100 does, but I suspect that it must be quite similar at this point. [...] ; --- Test A --- ; Bus In bit test 0078 251E MOVE R5, $3C 007A 81C1 LBI R1, #'A' 007C 7150 MOVB (R5)+, R1 007E 8FFF LBI R15, #$FF 0080 00FE GETB R15, $0 0082 CF04 SS R15 0084 0000 HALT [...] So essentially, the routine reads the byte from I/O device 0 (the processor or display adapter card) and halts if it isn't $FF. You should be able to check what R15 contains after the halt by switching to the register display. According to the 5100 MIM, the 'A' routine is described as "Test bus in for the ability to turn all bits on". So apparently you have a stuck bit. Are you shure that you don't have any external devices attached to the machine? And check the top connectors and all the jumpers. Then you might find the stuck bus in bit with a scope/logic probe by probing the external connector A2. > I'd be happy to try to replace some of the logic chips but IBM uses their > own numbering scheme. Does anyone know of a way to read them? I assume > they are normal logic chips but with IBM numbering in most cases? The normal "black" TTL ICs, yes, they are standard ICs. For a (incomplete) list, have a look at our FTP server at /pub/cm/ibm/ibmparts.txt > You can find new pictures here: > http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-5100-in-pictures/ One note: the terminator box is only needed when you use the 5106 drive *without* the 5103 printer, because the printer has a terminator built in and thus must be the last device in the chain. Christian From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 05:50:13 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:50:13 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <20150317215926.GA24629@RawFedDogs.net> References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> <20150317203652.GA18361@RawFedDogs.net> <20150317215926.GA24629@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: I wonder if the cards are interchangeable with a 5100... Santo On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 5:59 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 03:36:52PM -0500, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > > I've had one of these, or a similar model, for a couple of decades or so. > > I just got home and checked. What I have is a similar model - a 5110. > Mine > appears to be a model 2 without internal tape or floppy drives. > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.Lassie.xyz > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 05:58:10 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 06:58:10 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Christian, Thank you for the reply. I think I mentioned the machine halts or my keyboard doesn't work or it's not far enough in the Bring Up test to allow the Diagnostics to come up with the special key sequence. This is new territory for me so I'm not sure if input is accepted at that point. Where did you find the code for the Bring Up tests? I would love to have a look. The 5100 Maintenance manual is not very specific and certainly doesn't have code in it (unless I missed it). My registers looks like this: You'll notice that the first two characters in second line is not right. Sadly, it's gotten a little worse after taking this picture so lines 5 and 6 have some garbling of the dots. Since I was seeing text, I didn't suspect the display card right away (again, not knowing the machine) but it may be bad RAM on the display card. I'll refer to your IBMparts.txt file and see what is on that card. If you do see anything else in the registers, I'd be very happy to hear your thoughts. Thank you! I now have renewed hope. Santo On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 6:27 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> Update: Unfortunately, I think I'm at a dead end. After cleaning >> everything up, I am still at the "A" in the "Bring Up" program that isn't >> very far but it's better than garbage. I removed both memory cards and >> get >> garbage so the memory cards might be working (I have two and tried both >> individually). I think my problem is in the "Basic I/O" card as indicated >> in the Maintenance manual. I am also not able to get into the Diagnostics >> screen because it must be failing too early. Either that or my keyboard >> isn't working. It's hard to tell. >> > > What you don't say is whether the machine just halts, or stops with a > machine check. > > Here's the relevant part of the Bring Up test 'A' from the 5110. Since I > still haven't got a 5100 I can't verify what the 5100 does, but I suspect > that it must be quite similar at this point. > > [...] > ; --- Test A --- > ; Bus In bit test > > 0078 251E MOVE R5, $3C > 007A 81C1 LBI R1, #'A' > 007C 7150 MOVB (R5)+, R1 > 007E 8FFF LBI R15, #$FF > 0080 00FE GETB R15, $0 > 0082 CF04 SS R15 > 0084 0000 HALT > > [...] > > So essentially, the routine reads the byte from I/O device 0 (the > processor or display adapter card) and halts if it isn't $FF. > You should be able to check what R15 contains after the halt by switching > to the register display. > According to the 5100 MIM, the 'A' routine is described as "Test bus in > for the ability to turn all bits on". So apparently you have a stuck bit. > Are you shure that you don't have any external devices attached to the > machine? And check the top connectors and all the jumpers. > Then you might find the stuck bus in bit with a scope/logic probe by > probing the external connector A2. > > I'd be happy to try to replace some of the logic chips but IBM uses their >> own numbering scheme. Does anyone know of a way to read them? I assume >> they are normal logic chips but with IBM numbering in most cases? >> > > The normal "black" TTL ICs, yes, they are standard ICs. For a (incomplete) > list, have a look at our FTP server at /pub/cm/ibm/ibmparts.txt > > You can find new pictures here: >> http://vintagecomputer.ca/ibm-5100-in-pictures/ >> > > One note: the terminator box is only needed when you use the 5106 drive > *without* the 5103 printer, because the printer has a terminator built in > and thus must be the last device in the chain. > > Christian > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 18 06:26:55 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:26:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> References: <20150316143357.8A5142073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> <201503171541.LAA14288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <7.0.1.0.2.20150317155416.03cb3b10@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Mar 2015, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 12:24 PM 3/17/2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> When people refer to NTSC as a color encoding scheme, that?s a >> shorthand for ?the color TV standard defined by the NTSC?. > > "NTSC" is National Television Standards Committee, which determined > analog TV standards in the US. The digital equivalent for current > receivers is ATSC - Advanced Television Standards Committee. The Wikipedia article says that the non-colour standard was only a recommendation, and that this Committee was reconstituted to standardize colour television (and in my opinion drop the analog signal definitions). The same article then says "NTSC color encoding is used with the System M television signal". The German Wikipedia says that "NTSC is a US American institution that defined the first colour television standard [...] The term NTSC was later adopted as a generic description for this television system." And as I recall it, what you call NTSC is what we call "CCIR System M" - without colour (the CCIR and the ITU being much older than the NTSC). So as I understand it, the NTSC started to define a television signal standard and dropped it in favour of the CCIR standard, but became the insitution to define the colour standard in the US. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 18 06:54:53 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:54:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Where did you find the code for the Bring Up tests? I would love to have a > look. The 5100 Maintenance manual is not very specific and certainly > doesn't have code in it (unless I missed it). I disassembled it myself. You can find the disassembly on our FTP server, too: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibm/ibm5100/execros.asm But as mentioned, all information refer to the 5110. > My registers looks like this: I don't see anything... was that an attachement or inline picture? > You'll notice that the first two characters in second line is not right. They are absulutely right! This means that the processor is running (executing a halt instruction that in reality is a jump to itself). What you are seeing is the program counter (register R0) changing. I you put the machine into single-step mode (there's a switch in the machine under the cover) you can step the instructions one-by-one. > Sadly, it's gotten a little worse after taking this picture so lines 5 and > 6 have some garbling of the dots. Since I was seeing text, I didn't suspect If all other characters are ok, what you describe as garbling are just changing data bytes. > the display card right away (again, not knowing the machine) but it may be > bad RAM on the display card. I wouldn't suspect the display card, too. > I'll refer to your IBMparts.txt file and see what is on that card. If you > do see anything else in the registers, I'd be very happy to hear your > thoughts. Could you put the picture on your web site or send me an email? And please also make the following readable screenshot: 1. Put the machine into single-step mode 2. Press RESTART 3. Switch to DISPLAY REGISTERS 4. Make photo This is the hex dump of the first 512 bytes of the Executable ROS. At least that's how it works on the 5110. Christian From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 07:05:30 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:05:30 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Sorry about that. Here's the registers: http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IBM-5100-Register-display-at-A.jpg It was an inline image and I can still see it when I look a the email I sent :) That's a direct link. The display of registers is consistent from first start up and through restarts. I did want to thank you also for the terminator clarification. I changed my page. I also looked at the IBMparts.txt reference chart. That's exactly what I needed. I do have some rusty logic chips that cleaned up decently but I don't trust them exactly since the previous owner turned this computer on with the rust bridging pins. He claimed it worked with the Register screen on. I knew otherwise. All of the "cans" looked good though. Thanks again. I do need to look at the Maintenance manual when I get home to line up the registers and see if $FF is in the right one but you can probably tell that pretty quickly with the picture. Thanks for looking. Santo On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> Where did you find the code for the Bring Up tests? I would love to have >> a >> look. The 5100 Maintenance manual is not very specific and certainly >> doesn't have code in it (unless I missed it). >> > > I disassembled it myself. You can find the disassembly on our FTP server, > too: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibm/ibm5100/execros.asm > But as mentioned, all information refer to the 5110. > > My registers looks like this: >> > > I don't see anything... was that an attachement or inline picture? > > You'll notice that the first two characters in second line is not right. >> > > They are absulutely right! This means that the processor is running > (executing a halt instruction that in reality is a jump to itself). What > you are seeing is the program counter (register R0) changing. I you put the > machine into single-step mode (there's a switch in the machine under the > cover) you can step the instructions one-by-one. > > Sadly, it's gotten a little worse after taking this picture so lines 5 and >> 6 have some garbling of the dots. Since I was seeing text, I didn't >> suspect >> > > If all other characters are ok, what you describe as garbling are just > changing data bytes. > > the display card right away (again, not knowing the machine) but it may be >> bad RAM on the display card. >> > > I wouldn't suspect the display card, too. > > I'll refer to your IBMparts.txt file and see what is on that card. If >> you >> do see anything else in the registers, I'd be very happy to hear your >> thoughts. >> > > Could you put the picture on your web site or send me an email? And please > also make the following readable screenshot: > 1. Put the machine into single-step mode > 2. Press RESTART > 3. Switch to DISPLAY REGISTERS > 4. Make photo > > This is the hex dump of the first 512 bytes of the Executable ROS. At > least that's how it works on the 5110. > > Christian > From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Mar 18 07:25:19 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:25:19 -0500 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> <20150317203652.GA18361@RawFedDogs.net> <20150317215926.GA24629@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20150318122519.GA9177@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 06:50:13AM -0400, Santo Nucifora wrote: > I wonder if the cards are interchangeable with a 5100... The Wikipedia 5110 article says the 5110 is partially incompatible with the 5100. Unfortunately that's the extent of my knowledge on the subject. I don't know if any of its cards are interchangeable with a 5100 or not. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 18 07:34:16 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 07:34:16 -0500 Subject: HP stuff on ebay Message-ID: <007a01d06177$d9b93320$8d2b9960$@classiccmp.org> By now, many have seen the 2100A on ebay (item # 141602578927). Those are truly wonderful machines and a great example of HP engineering at the time. IMHO, the best (usability) front panel of any machine I've ever touched. It looks to be in good shape and from what little I can tell from the pictures it looks to be complete (foggy memory makes me think there was an A9 card as well, but don't recall for sure, probably optional). Only downside is it has 8K (give HP-IPL/OS a try), no terminal board, and no disc controller; the only thing missing that is really essential is the terminal board (either 12531 {HS TERMINAL} or 12966 {BACI} is what it needs). I suspect it will go for "substantially" more than the current bid ($290). Note that by and large, I/O boards for the 1000 series (21MX M/E/F) are compatible with it. The auction states there is no key, I have a whole box full of keys for the 2100 if someone here gets it. I have several 2100's, plus a couple spare machines, so I have no dog in that hunt. Hope someone gives it a great home. Whoever gets it - there is a chance I have a spare set of rails for it, not sure. Also of note is the 7970E tape drive (ebay item # 141603907013). I can't really tell from the pictures, but careful inspection of them makes me wonder if there isn't some corrosion present. Of particular concern is the condition of the capstan surface. It may be completely fine, but the grainy picture raises that question. On the bright side, the seller says the load button produces the expected results which is a fair sign of some amount of life. Bidders should be aware that the electrical interface for this drive is "HP Only", not a common standard. I asked the seller to get a picture inside the unit, particularly so I could see the date code and options placard but didn't get a response. At the least it would be nice to know what speed the drive is and more importantly if it is a "slave only" unit (requiring a master). Lastly, can't tell from the pictures, but I'm guessing it does not include the oddball HP mounting bracket. It is unlikely you'd be able to mount this thing in a rack at all without that bracket. If someone here gets this unit, contact me off-list as I did actually get one extra bracket manufactured in the recent order that is unspoken for. I was going to bid on this unit because if it arrived and was in poor condition - it would be a complete spare board set for my other two units. However, the bidding has already gone above what I was willing to pay for a spare boardset J Again, hope someone gives this a good home! Best, J From tsw-cc at johana.com Wed Mar 18 05:25:48 2015 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? Message-ID: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> A discussion about sync rates on a TV signal. Christian Corti Wrote: > This has absolutely *nothing* to do with NTSC or PAL (or SECAM or > whatever). NTSC etc. are colour encoding standards and don't describe in > any way how a image signal is generated (fields, syncs, timing). They only > describe how to put colour information into the signal. > Christian Sorry, but this is UNTRUE.? There have been several NTSC standards. The first one defined the signals for standard Black/White TV, it dates from the 1940s.? It defined such things as horizontal sync, vertical sync, field definitions,? and equalizing pulses (among other things).? This version used a horizontal sync rate of 15750Hz, and a vertical sync of 60Hz (field rate).? The later NTSC standard (from the 1950's) added the color definitions (color burst, re-definition of horizontal sync, color phase signals, color sub-carrier, etc.).? This version reduced the sync rates by 0.1%, yielding a horizontal rate of 15734Hz, and a vertical rate of 59.94Hz.? This was needed to make things proper multiples of the color burst rate.? A later definition added stereo audio (related to horizontal sync). If you know things about the signal, you know that there are 4 field types in NTSC color that differ with phase start of color burst, and odd/even field.? I believe that PAL has 8, but I'm not exactly sure. Yes, PAL and SECAM are color definitions.? They are encoded over various underlying TV sync systems.? One can make a SECAM receiver work a PAL signal. Many of the broadcast standards have been dictated by governments.? I believe that the 625/50 standard is "CCIR"? What devices generate is anybodys guess.? What TV sets accept is a crap shoot if it isn't "standard". From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 18 08:45:08 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:45:08 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <55098164.8090200@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-17 22:45, John Wilson wrote: > But thinking about how it must work hurts my head. It's emulating Unibus > memory at the same time that it's emulating the Unibus map -- i.e. CPU > accesses (which should be relocated through the onboard PARs) are coming > over the same bus as DMA (which should be relocated using the Unibus Map). > How does it know which is which? Does it need to tap into each model of > CPU somehow (like how a Microverter gets at MMR3)? Or is it something > simple like, BBSY is never asserted by the CPU (not obvious from docs -- > the CPU doesn't need to negotiate to become a master but it still is one > when it's accessing memory) so if it's on, this is DMA? And what if there's > a cache, like the KK11A, that doesn't know about the outboard PARs? Not sure it's that hard. On the bus, I believe it is visible if this is an NPR transaction or not. The Unibus map only applies to NPR transactions. Addresses originating from the CPU should get the full 22 bit address from the MMU. I was thinking about the Enable/34 again the other day. As others have mentioned, there is the question (if I remember right) how the PAR registers could be 16 bits (required for 22 bit addressing) when the CPU PAR registers only hold 12 bits, and only 12 bits comes out. One possible other answer might be that the CPU had been modified, so that the internal PAR registers were disabled. I found a post that possibly suggested something like this on the net. See http://gopher.quux.org:70/Archives/usenet-a-news/FA.unix-wizards/81.07.09_ucbvax.2202_fa.unix-wizards.txt, where the mention that the Enable/34 gives you new PAR registers, but keep the PDR registers in the CPU. But this is still way too little to actually know for sure how things works. Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 18 08:51:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150318135155.A7F2018C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > But this is still way too little to actually know for sure how things > works. Even if you don't have the documentation, it's possible that the ENABLE at Update can answer some questions for us. Does Update still have their ENABLE? Is it still plugged into a machine, or has it been pulled (and is now sitting on a shelf somewhere, perhaps)? If the latter, are there any pictures of it in the machine? Thanks! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 18 09:07:04 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:07:04 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <55098164.8090200@update.uu.se> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> <55098164.8090200@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5CEDF057-9F6C-4568-A451-FC8655ED8792@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-03-17 22:45, John Wilson wrote: >> But thinking about how it must work hurts my head. It's emulating Unibus >> memory at the same time that it's emulating the Unibus map -- i.e. CPU >> accesses (which should be relocated through the onboard PARs) are coming >> over the same bus as DMA (which should be relocated using the Unibus Map). >> How does it know which is which? Does it need to tap into each model of >> CPU somehow (like how a Microverter gets at MMR3)? Or is it something >> simple like, BBSY is never asserted by the CPU (not obvious from docs -- >> the CPU doesn't need to negotiate to become a master but it still is one >> when it's accessing memory) so if it's on, this is DMA? And what if there's >> a cache, like the KK11A, that doesn't know about the outboard PARs? > > Not sure it's that hard. On the bus, I believe it is visible if this is an NPR transaction or not. The Unibus map only applies to NPR transactions. > > Addresses originating from the CPU should get the full 22 bit address from the MMU. Yes, but the Unibus map is still involved; if the CPU generates an address in the range 17000000 to 17577777, it lands on the Unibus and is then mapped by the Unibus map. More precisely, it works that way for 11/44 and 11/70 ? but not for the J-11. That?s a difference not documented in the PDP-11 Architecture handbook model differences table; I ran into it while helping Sytse van Slooten debug an error message from RSTS/E on his VHDL PDP-11. The reason I/O registers work is that the Unibus maps has 31 pages, not 32; it maps the Unibus addresses below the 4kW I/O range only. paul From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 18 09:08:59 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:08:59 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150318135155.A7F2018C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150318135155.A7F2018C0C8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <550986FB.4060809@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-18 14:51, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > But this is still way too little to actually know for sure how things > > works. > > Even if you don't have the documentation, it's possible that the ENABLE at > Update can answer some questions for us. Does Update still have their ENABLE? > Is it still plugged into a machine, or has it been pulled (and is now sitting > on a shelf somewhere, perhaps)? If the latter, are there any pictures of it > in the machine? I'm not sure where the machine is any more. It was moving around between different people, and I lost track of it. I didn't really try to keep track either. It might be that some people knows its current whereabouts. One more thing to check this summer... Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 18 09:23:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:23:47 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <5CEDF057-9F6C-4568-A451-FC8655ED8792@comcast.net> References: <20150317210237.4622818C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150317214549.GA15846@dbit.dbit.com> <55098164.8090200@update.uu.se> <5CEDF057-9F6C-4568-A451-FC8655ED8792@comcast.net> Message-ID: <55098A73.3040801@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-18 15:07, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 18, 2015, at 9:45 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-03-17 22:45, John Wilson wrote: >>> But thinking about how it must work hurts my head. It's emulating Unibus >>> memory at the same time that it's emulating the Unibus map -- i.e. CPU >>> accesses (which should be relocated through the onboard PARs) are coming >>> over the same bus as DMA (which should be relocated using the Unibus Map). >>> How does it know which is which? Does it need to tap into each model of >>> CPU somehow (like how a Microverter gets at MMR3)? Or is it something >>> simple like, BBSY is never asserted by the CPU (not obvious from docs -- >>> the CPU doesn't need to negotiate to become a master but it still is one >>> when it's accessing memory) so if it's on, this is DMA? And what if there's >>> a cache, like the KK11A, that doesn't know about the outboard PARs? >> >> Not sure it's that hard. On the bus, I believe it is visible if this is an NPR transaction or not. The Unibus map only applies to NPR transactions. >> >> Addresses originating from the CPU should get the full 22 bit address from the MMU. > > Yes, but the Unibus map is still involved; if the CPU generates an address in the range 17000000 to 17577777, it lands on the Unibus and is then mapped by the Unibus map. More precisely, it works that way for 11/44 and 11/70 ? but not for the J-11. That?s a difference not documented in the PDP-11 Architecture handbook model differences table; I ran into it while helping Sytse van Slooten debug an error message from RSTS/E on his VHDL PDP-11. Right. It is documented in the 11/84 and 11/94 manuals though. > The reason I/O registers work is that the Unibus maps has 31 pages, not 32; it maps the Unibus addresses below the 4kW I/O range only. Yes. But this also is only true for the 11/44 and 11/70. On J11 processors, you cannot (for the above reason) access memory indirectly through the Unibus map from the CPU no matter what. Since the Unibus map actually sits on an external card that interfaces between the Unibus and the PMI bus on the J11 machines with a Unibus. The KT84 (did I remember that name right?) only maps accessed from the Unibus to the PMI bus. Access from the CPU is an access from PMI. (And with PMI I mean the modified PMI of those machines, which slightly deviates from "standard" PMI.) Johnny From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 18 10:16:02 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > if the CPU generates an address in the range 17000000 to 17577777, it > lands on the Unibus and is then mapped by the Unibus map. Umm, I think you meant "to 17 757 777", no? (Too many 7's - I find it helpful to break them up into groups of 3, the way DEC does, to prevent that kind of confustion.) > More precisely, it works that way for 11/44 and 11/70 - but not for the > J-11. That's a difference not documented in the PDP-11 Architecture > handbook model differences table But, but, but... the J-11 doesn't _have_ a UNIBUS map! Well, the 11/84 and 11/94 do, but not other J-11 machines. (And the Architecture Handbook table does not have separate columns for the 11/73, 11/84, etc.) So an 11/73 can't have a reference in the range 17 000 000 to 17 757 777 go out the UNIBUS - there isn't one! :-) So what happens if one does a reference to something in the range 17 000 000 to 17 757 777 on the 11/84? The 11/84 _does_ support having memory on the UNIBUS (up to 248KB), _but_ how it appears depends on how much there is. (See section 3.13.2, EK-1184-TM-PR2.) There's a special register to configure it (the 'KTJ11-B Memory Configuration Register', KMCR), which includes _how much_ UNIBUS memory there is. If there is _no_ UNIBUS memory, then PMI memory appears (to the CPU) at 0 up, and the UNIBUS Map is enabled. References to 17 000 000 to 17 757 777 go to PMI memory ("PMI memory, as seen by the CPU, resides in contiguous locations from 0 up to as high as 17 757 777"), and presumably if there is no PMI memory there, they fail, they don't even go out the UNIBUS to see if anyone's home. If there is _no_ PMI memory, then _UNIBUS_ memory appears (to the CPU) at 0 up, and the UNIBUS Map is _disabled_. (And I assume references to the range 01 000 000 to 17 757 777 just immediately fail.) If, on the other hand, there is a _mix_ of PMI and UNIBUS memory, things get really wierd. UNIBUS memory does not appear at 0, _or_ at 17 000 000 up to 17 577 777; instead, that memory appears to the CPU (depending on how much there is) from 17 757 777 _downwards_ to (17 600 000-UNIBUS_memory_size); UNIBUS memory apparently has to be assigned UNIBUS addresses from 757 777 _down_ ("[UNIBUS] DMA Address XXX XXX accesses the same UNIBUS Memory location accessed by CPU addresses 17 XXX XXX"). (Which is slightly odd because in the case where there is no PMI memory, the UNIBUS memory needs to be assigned UNIBUS addresses from 0 up, which is quite different from how to assign UNIBUS addresses to that memory in the 'mixed' case. But never mind... :-) The UNIBUS map will not respond to UNIBUS cycles in the address range assigned to the UNIBUS memory. And, to look at the original point, I would _guess_ that references to locations in the range 17 000 000 to 17 757 777, but below the configured UNIBUS memory, again don't go out the UNIBUS, but try and perform a PMI cycle, which may or may not fail. Basically, it seems like DEC was determined not to waste any address space on the J-11/UNIBUS machines. Either it's configured as UNIBUS memory, or it's PMI. The KTJ11-B can also be configured to operate in 18-bit mode, with a mix of PMI and UNIBUS memory, but I will leave the ugly details unless someone is particularly interested in them! :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 18 10:28:22 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:28:22 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8FFF29DB-2C8B-4F0B-ACAD-F82ABBAF37D6@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> if the CPU generates an address in the range 17000000 to 17577777, it >> lands on the Unibus and is then mapped by the Unibus map. > > Umm, I think you meant "to 17 757 777", no? (Too many 7's - I find it helpful > to break them up into groups of 3, the way DEC does, to prevent that kind of > confustion.) Oops. Yes. > >> More precisely, it works that way for 11/44 and 11/70 - but not for the >> J-11. That's a difference not documented in the PDP-11 Architecture >> handbook model differences table > > But, but, but... the J-11 doesn't _have_ a UNIBUS map! Well, the 11/84 and > 11/94 do, but not other J-11 machines. (And the Architecture Handbook table > does not have separate columns for the 11/73, 11/84, etc.) So an 11/73 can't > have a reference in the range 17 000 000 to 17 757 777 go out the UNIBUS - > there isn't one! :-) Correct, I meant J-11 Unibus systems. > > > So what happens if one does a reference to something in the range 17 000 000 > to 17 757 777 on the 11/84? The 11/84 _does_ support having memory on the > UNIBUS (up to 248KB), _but_ how it appears depends on how much there is. (See > section 3.13.2, EK-1184-TM-PR2.) There's a special register to configure it > (the 'KTJ11-B Memory Configuration Register', KMCR), which includes _how > much_ UNIBUS memory there is. > ... > Basically, it seems like DEC was determined not to waste any address space on > the J-11/UNIBUS machines. Either it's configured as UNIBUS memory, or it's > PMI. Interesting. I was referring to what I learned by reading the RSTS/E memory size determination code. That code says that the main memory limit is 2M - 128kW for 11/44 and 11/70, and 2M - 4kW for J-11 Unibus. So it looks like RSTS/E doesn?t support the mixed case you mentioned, only the ?just PMI? flavor. paul From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 10:43:45 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 11:43:45 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Christian, execros.asm doesn't exist on the ftp server. If you could send it to me off-line, I would appreciate it. I know it's different but it should be similar enough to that point, I would think. Thanks, Santo On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> Where did you find the code for the Bring Up tests? I would love to have >> a >> look. The 5100 Maintenance manual is not very specific and certainly >> doesn't have code in it (unless I missed it). >> > > I disassembled it myself. You can find the disassembly on our FTP server, > too: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/ibm/ibm5100/execros.asm > But as mentioned, all information refer to the 5110. > > My registers looks like this: >> > > I don't see anything... was that an attachement or inline picture? > > You'll notice that the first two characters in second line is not right. >> > > They are absulutely right! This means that the processor is running > (executing a halt instruction that in reality is a jump to itself). What > you are seeing is the program counter (register R0) changing. I you put the > machine into single-step mode (there's a switch in the machine under the > cover) you can step the instructions one-by-one. > > Sadly, it's gotten a little worse after taking this picture so lines 5 and >> 6 have some garbling of the dots. Since I was seeing text, I didn't >> suspect >> > > If all other characters are ok, what you describe as garbling are just > changing data bytes. > > the display card right away (again, not knowing the machine) but it may be >> bad RAM on the display card. >> > > I wouldn't suspect the display card, too. > > I'll refer to your IBMparts.txt file and see what is on that card. If >> you >> do see anything else in the registers, I'd be very happy to hear your >> thoughts. >> > > Could you put the picture on your web site or send me an email? And please > also make the following readable screenshot: > 1. Put the machine into single-step mode > 2. Press RESTART > 3. Switch to DISPLAY REGISTERS > 4. Make photo > > This is the hex dump of the first 512 bytes of the Executable ROS. At > least that's how it works on the 5110. > > Christian > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 18 11:23:19 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:23:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > execros.asm > doesn't > exist on the ftp server. If you could send it to me off-line, I would Sorry, there's a typo: .../ibm/ibm5110/... (instead of 5100). And use FTP as I said, so just change http:// with ftp:// or use a FTP client. BTW I had a look at your screen shot. The register contents is as follows: R0 - varying around $0090 R1 - $0090 R2 - $0000 R3 - $0600 R4 - $0006 R5 - $0202 R6 - $0005 R7 - $05C0 R8 - $00C0 R9..R14 - $0000 R15 - $0005 R13L1 - $7FFF (last RWS address? Do you have 32kB in your machine?) If your machine really halts at stop 'A', then this is strange. R5 should contain the screen address for the next character. $0202 should be for the 'C', so the machine might hang at stop 'B'. R15 should contain $00FF. Having R1 with $0090 implies a negative test instruction at $008C with the halt instruction at $008E. (R1 is used as link register with conditional skip instructions. If no skip occurs, the next instruction can be a jump to a subroutine, and R1 contains the address of the instruction following that jump. This is automatically done by the CPU). R3 and R4 might contain the end values after the screen clear routine (just before the 'A' routine). The 5110 version looks like this: ; Clear display 006C 8F40 LBI R15, #' ' 006E 0FFD MLH R15, R15 0070 8D06 LBI R13, #$06 0072 5F51 MOVE (R5)+, R15 0074 C5D7 SBSH R5, R13 0076 F005 BRA $0072 ; -> -$06(R0) And the 5100 version could be something like this: 8200 LBI R2, #' ' 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 8406 LBI R4, #$06 ; R4 <- $0006 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 C347 SBSH R3, R4 F005 BRA $-6 The screen is cleared from $0200 (begin of screen) up to (excluding) $0600 (end of screen). So R3 contains the address of the first byte after the screen area. But to find out what the machine did until this point, I need the Executable ROS hex dump as described in my last post. Address 0090 is well within the first 512 bytes so we should get the first couple of diagnostic routines. Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 18 11:44:09 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? Message-ID: <20150318164409.0F32618C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Michael Holley > The French standard is SECAM, which stands for "System Essentially > Contrary to American Method" The French! Don't get me started on the French! (If there any French people on here, don't worry, you're all forgiven, because of CYCLADES! For everyone who doesn't know what CYCLADES is: Google it!! These bits are coming to you via its descendant! :-) Question: Why is the ATM cell payload 48 bytes? Clue #1: Multiply 1/c by the largest diameter of France. Clue #2: What is a camel? Noel From wilson at dbit.com Wed Mar 18 11:57:16 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 12:57:16 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20150318165716.GA1759@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 11:16:02AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >The UNIBUS map will not respond to UNIBUS cycles in the address range >assigned to the UNIBUS memory. Just to state the obvious: I assume the whole point of this "Unibus fence" concept is really for things that *aren't* memory. Mixing in some Unibus memory that's slower than PMI etc. and needs to use real addresses for DMA (vs. mapped ones) seems like a giant hassle for just 6.5% more RAM, so I figure it's really for bus windows or ROM boards or frame buffers or any oddball device that looks like memory and is too big to fit in the I/O page. (Even more obvious in case this is greek to anybody: the Unibus map acts as a RAM emulator for DMA accesses, passing those to real memory after remapping the addresses, and the "fence" optionally sets a Unibus address range in the low 248 KB where the map is disabled from doing that and steps aside to let any real Unibus devices at those addresses respond -- or not, so timeouts are still possible.) John Wilson D Bit From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 18 12:29:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:29:52 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <20150318165716.GA1759@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20150318165716.GA1759@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5509B610.3000107@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-18 17:57, John Wilson wrote: > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 11:16:02AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> The UNIBUS map will not respond to UNIBUS cycles in the address range >> assigned to the UNIBUS memory. > > Just to state the obvious: I assume the whole point of this "Unibus fence" > concept is really for things that *aren't* memory. Mixing in some Unibus > memory that's slower than PMI etc. and needs to use real addresses for DMA > (vs. mapped ones) seems like a giant hassle for just 6.5% more RAM, so I > figure it's really for bus windows or ROM boards or frame buffers or any > oddball device that looks like memory and is too big to fit in the I/O page. (And it's not giving you more RAM. PMI memory already gives you 4M minus the I/O page) Johnny From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Mar 18 13:07:47 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 19:07:47 +0100 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <8FFF29DB-2C8B-4F0B-ACAD-F82ABBAF37D6@comcast.net> References: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8FFF29DB-2C8B-4F0B-ACAD-F82ABBAF37D6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5509BEF3.6050807@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-18 16:28, Paul Koning wrote: > >> So what happens if one does a reference to something in the range 17 000 000 >> to 17 757 777 on the 11/84? The 11/84 _does_ support having memory on the >> UNIBUS (up to 248KB), _but_ how it appears depends on how much there is. (See >> section 3.13.2, EK-1184-TM-PR2.) There's a special register to configure it >> (the 'KTJ11-B Memory Configuration Register', KMCR), which includes _how >> much_ UNIBUS memory there is. >> ... >> Basically, it seems like DEC was determined not to waste any address space on >> the J-11/UNIBUS machines. Either it's configured as UNIBUS memory, or it's >> PMI. > > Interesting. I was referring to what I learned by reading the RSTS/E memory size determination code. That code says that the main memory limit is 2M - 128kW for 11/44 and 11/70, and 2M - 4kW for J-11 Unibus. So it looks like RSTS/E doesn?t support the mixed case you mentioned, only the ?just PMI? flavor. I'm not sure RSTS/E needs to explicitly know if there are Unibus memory, except if you end of with non-contiguous memory because of this. Johnny From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 18 13:15:09 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:15:09 -0400 Subject: Qbus split I&D? In-Reply-To: <5509BEF3.6050807@update.uu.se> References: <20150318151602.C042318C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8FFF29DB-2C8B-4F0B-ACAD-F82ABBAF37D6@comcast.net> <5509BEF3.6050807@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <0300D8F6-FA9E-4D34-A411-457C73783C5F@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 2:07 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-03-18 16:28, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> So what happens if one does a reference to something in the range 17 000 000 >>> to 17 757 777 on the 11/84? The 11/84 _does_ support having memory on the >>> UNIBUS (up to 248KB), _but_ how it appears depends on how much there is. (See >>> section 3.13.2, EK-1184-TM-PR2.) There's a special register to configure it >>> (the 'KTJ11-B Memory Configuration Register', KMCR), which includes _how >>> much_ UNIBUS memory there is. >>> ... >>> Basically, it seems like DEC was determined not to waste any address space on >>> the J-11/UNIBUS machines. Either it's configured as UNIBUS memory, or it's >>> PMI. >> >> Interesting. I was referring to what I learned by reading the RSTS/E memory size determination code. That code says that the main memory limit is 2M - 128kW for 11/44 and 11/70, and 2M - 4kW for J-11 Unibus. So it looks like RSTS/E doesn?t support the mixed case you mentioned, only the ?just PMI? flavor. > > I'm not sure RSTS/E needs to explicitly know if there are Unibus memory, except if you end of with non-contiguous memory because of this. RSTS doesn?t need to know, and it actually supports non-contiguous memory (it looks for memory at every 1k address, until it hits the top of the address space it is told to use for the given processor model). But apparently the decision was not to support Unibus memory in 22 bit systems, since the scan stops at the top of the main memory address space. Given that it goes all the way to the 4k I/O page on J-11 systems, that would allow it to recognize Unibus memory if any were there, but whether the RSTS team would consider such a config unsupported is a question I no longer know how to answer. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 18 13:15:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 14:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Qbus split I&D? Message-ID: <20150318181559.2C18B18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > One more thing to check this summer... OK, if you can, that would really be great; if either i) it's still together, or ii) there are pictures, it would fill some of the key knowledge gaps. In particular, i) what kind of backplane is it plugged into, and ii) what is the UNIBUS edge connector on the card connected to... Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 18 08:53:44 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 09:53:44 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> > On Mar 18, 2015, at 6:25 AM, Tom Watson wrote: > > A discussion about sync rates on a TV signal. > > ... > Many of the broadcast standards have been dictated by governments. I believe that the 625/50 standard is "CCIR? At one time there were at least four B&W video transmission standards in Europe (we had a tube TV with a 4-position selection knob to support them). 625/50 regular, 625/50 inverted in some way (?) used by the Dutch speaking Belgian stations, 819/50 for France, and a different 819/50 for French speaking Belgian stations. paul From scaron at umich.edu Wed Mar 18 09:14:53 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:14:53 -0400 Subject: Surviving PDP-11 stats (was: Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As a data point, mine is an 11/34a and the original customer was Western Michigan University. I do believe that the 11/34 is one of the more common models; you tend to see a fair number of them in private hands. I agree, the 11/60 has always struck me as the most uncommon. Best, Sean On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I might be picking up a 55 this summer, and it's not even on my list. > > On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren > > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:08:26PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > > > >... How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? > > > > > > Quite a few I would think. We have no less then three at the club. And > > > of the top of my head there are at least three more owners on this > list. > > > > > > Given how many of the more rare machines people have, I'd venture that > > > there are at least 25, if not more, 11/70 machines in private hands. > > > > > > /P > > > > > > > So, I've never thought of the 11/70 as being "that rare", but "at least > 25" > > still sounds to me as being fairly uncommon as PDP-11's go? > > > > How (relatively) common are the remaining early 11's these days? With > some > > lumping, and ignoring the F11/J11-based ones, in these categories: 20/15; > > 10/05; 40/35; 45; 50; 55; 60; 70; 34/04; 44? The last two I'm thinking > are > > still quite common; really no idea about the others ... although the > number > > of remaining 11/60's seems to be in the bare-handful category. 50's and > > 55's might be similarly low? > > > > ----- > > paul > > > From mspproductions at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 09:25:25 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:25:25 -0400 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> References: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> Message-ID: "Apparently in the early days of colour TV (I do not know which system) they were doing closed- circuit tests. The camera was pointed at a known test subject, the image on the monitor was inspected and things were tweaked so it looked OK. One of the test subjects was a still life of a bowl of fruit. One day they just could not get a reasonable colour image no matter how much they fiddled with the phase shift controls, etc. And then somebody had the sense to look at the subject. Some joker had painted the banana blue..." That story IS true, it happened at NBC while RCA was testing the preproduction TK-40 cameras at the colonial theater in NYC. It was a late night test and there had been problems all day with the equipment. On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 9:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Mar 18, 2015, at 6:25 AM, Tom Watson wrote: > > > > A discussion about sync rates on a TV signal. > > > > ... > > Many of the broadcast standards have been dictated by governments. I > believe that the 625/50 standard is "CCIR? > > At one time there were at least four B&W video transmission standards in > Europe (we had a tube TV with a 4-position selection knob to support > them). 625/50 regular, 625/50 inverted in some way (?) used by the Dutch > speaking Belgian stations, 819/50 for France, and a different 819/50 for > French speaking Belgian stations. > > paul > > > -- Matt Patoray Owner, MSP Productions (330)542-3698 mspproductions at gmail.com KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 18 13:18:33 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 18:18:33 +0000 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> References: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>, <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > At one time there were at least four B&W video transmission standards in Europe (we had a tube TV with a > 4-position selection knob to support them). 625/50 regular, 625/50 inverted in some way (?) used by the Dutch > speaking Belgian stations, 819/50 for France, and a different 819/50 for French speaking Belgian stations. Not part of the _video_ signal, but part of the overall signal : IIRC continental Europe (mostly?) put the sound carrier 5.5 MHz way from the video carrier, but the UK had a 6MHz offset. -tony From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Wed Mar 18 16:05:08 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:05:08 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <4685ACBC-F114-4602-BA6B-B1D5A2CEED43@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503182105.t2IL5BED007927-t2IL5BEE007927@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> I tried to connect a resistor of 10kohm to 3rd wire of the connector but putting it to ground or to +5vdc nothing happens. I also checked if with a disk inserted into the drive what kind of signal come out from the 3rd wire from the main but always remains at zero volts. Checking with the oscilloscope signals on chips of the spindle motor all seems very stop and static. I report below some value of voltages misured on the IC's pin and photos at high resolution at the link below. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ozy5mn06hyz9jn1/AADelz2vVsTSEAwmwoVzvwppa?dl=0 LB1620 Pin1= 18,2V Pin2= 9,2V Pin3=0V Pin4=24v Pin5=pin6=pin7=0V Pin8=0V Pin9=pin19=8,93V TC9142P pin1= pin5= Q101Base=3,52v pin4= pin10= pin16=8,93v pin6=6,2v pin7=pin8=3,5v pin9= NC =3,52v pin11= Q101collector = 8,97v pin12= pin13= NC pin14= pin15= square wave C358C pin1=pin2=pin3= 4,5v pin4=GND pin5=0,5v connected to the 3rd input wire pin6= 1,2v connected to the r101 - r105 with the other side of r101 connected to pin 16 of 9142 pin7= 7,76v connected to Q101 collector pin8= 9v main link with other info https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 Thanks in advance for your help. Enrico From roeapeterson at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:24:55 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:24:55 -0600 Subject: Surviving PDP-11 stats (was: Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63045C4A-53CF-46BB-B2FE-4FCFF91F7A63@gmail.com> I have an original 11/15, not currently completely working. > On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:14 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > > As a data point, mine is an 11/34a and the original customer was Western > Michigan University. I do believe that the 11/34 is one of the more common > models; you tend to see a fair number of them in private hands. > > I agree, the 11/60 has always struck me as the most uncommon. > > Best, > > Sean > >> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 4:19 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> I might be picking up a 55 this summer, and it's not even on my list. >> >>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 1:23 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Pontus Pihlgren >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 04:08:26PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ... How many 11/70s are in the hands of folks like us? >>>> >>>> Quite a few I would think. We have no less then three at the club. And >>>> of the top of my head there are at least three more owners on this >> list. >>>> >>>> Given how many of the more rare machines people have, I'd venture that >>>> there are at least 25, if not more, 11/70 machines in private hands. >>>> >>>> /P >>> >>> So, I've never thought of the 11/70 as being "that rare", but "at least >> 25" >>> still sounds to me as being fairly uncommon as PDP-11's go? >>> >>> How (relatively) common are the remaining early 11's these days? With >> some >>> lumping, and ignoring the F11/J11-based ones, in these categories: 20/15; >>> 10/05; 40/35; 45; 50; 55; 60; 70; 34/04; 44? The last two I'm thinking >> are >>> still quite common; really no idea about the others ... although the >> number >>> of remaining 11/60's seems to be in the bare-handful category. 50's and >>> 55's might be similarly low? >>> >>> ----- >>> paul >> From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 16:28:31 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 17:28:31 -0400 Subject: Recovering Leading Edge Word Processor (LEWP) docs? Message-ID: I recovered a bunch of old floppies for a friend of mine. Her documents are from the 1980s, but all in LEWP format. Alas, I could not recover the disk with the binary on it. :-(. I am hoping someone has a copy of the binary or a pointer to the file format so I can write my own converter. I can't find either From david at attglobal.net Wed Mar 18 20:43:17 2015 From: david at attglobal.net (David Schmidt) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 21:43:17 -0400 Subject: Recovering Leading Edge Word Processor (LEWP) docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550A29B5.7050307@attglobal.net> On 3/18/2015 5:28 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > I recovered a bunch of old floppies for a friend of mine. Her documents are > from the 1980s, but all in LEWP format. Alas, I could not recover the disk > with the binary on it. :-(. > > I am hoping someone has a copy of the binary or a pointer to the file > format so I can write my own converter. I can't find either Transformenator has a LEWP transform: http://transformenator.sourceforge.net/ http://transformenator.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/transformenator/transformenator/src/org/transformenator/transforms/leading_edge_rtf?revision=1.1&view=markup Transformenator is a little fiddly to set up, so I can help if you just want converted files. - David From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Mar 18 22:19:54 2015 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 22:19:54 -0500 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms Message-ID: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> Jay.. think of the children! ..and wives...and other non octal folk and how long it will take to explain the shirt! ;-)
-------- Original message --------
From: Jay West
Date:03/17/2015 1:33 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
Subject: RE: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms
...Defcon alread did the hexidecimal thing with their 10th being "0A." 012 because Octal is where it's at ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 19 00:57:02 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 05:57:02 +0000 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> Message-ID: > Jay.. think of the children! ..and wives...and other non octal folk and how long it will take to explain the shirt! ;-) Just quote Tom Lehrer : 'Base 8 is just like Base 10 -- if you're missing 2 fingers' :-) > 012 because Octal is where it's at ;) -tony From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 00:50:51 2015 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 06:50:51 +0100 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? Message-ID: On 18 March 2015 at 19:18, tony duell wrote: > Not part of the _video_ signal, but part of the overall signal : IIRC continental Europe (mostly?) put the sound > carrier 5.5 MHz way from the video carrier, but the UK had a 6MHz offset. > > -tony SECAM comes in two variants, one with a 5.5MHz sound carrier offset and another with a 6.5MHz offset. The Russians apparently use a variant of the latter - many years ago I visited a family living close to the Russian border and they used to tune in to Russian TV on their black&white TV. But they had a hard time getting picture and sound at the same time, IIRC it was either one or the other. They would tune to sound or video depending on what was on - there are some great classical music programmes so presumably that's when they tuned to sound only. As for NTSC - 'never twice same color' - that sounds cumbersome, what we learned in (TV repair!) school was 'Never The Same Colour' :-) (PAL means Phase Alternating Line, except for the lines/frequency differences it is really just NTSC but with the phase of the colour subcarrier alternating every other line. Thus automatically cancelling out transmission phase errors which would otherwise change the colour. That's all really: NTSC with automatic colour phase error cancellation.) -Tor From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 18 17:02:35 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 15:02:35 -0700 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503182105.t2IL5BED007927-t2IL5BEE007927@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503182105.t2IL5BED007927-t2IL5BEE007927@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-18, at 2:05 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > I tried to connect a resistor of 10kohm to 3rd wire of the connector but > putting it to ground or to +5vdc nothing happens. I also checked if with a > disk inserted into the drive what kind of signal come out from the 3rd wire > from the main but always remains at zero volts. Checking with the > oscilloscope signals on chips of the spindle motor all seems very stop and > static. I report below some value of voltages misured on the IC's pin and > photos at high resolution at the link below. > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ozy5mn06hyz9jn1/AADelz2vVsTSEAwmwoVzvwppa?dl=0 This directory is currently empty, at least as I see it here. > LB1620 > Pin1= 18,2V > Pin2= 9,2V > Pin3=0V > Pin4=24v > Pin5=pin6=pin7=0V > Pin8=0V > Pin9=pin19=8,93V > > TC9142P > pin1= pin5= Q101Base=3,52v > pin4= pin10= pin16=8,93v > pin6=6,2v > pin7=pin8=3,5v > pin9= NC =3,52v > pin11= Q101collector = 8,97v > pin12= pin13= NC > pin14= pin15= square wave > > C358C > pin1=pin2=pin3= 4,5v > pin4=GND > pin5=0,5v connected to the 3rd input wire > pin6= 1,2v connected to the r101 - r105 with the other side of r101 > connected to pin 16 of 9142 > pin7= 7,76v connected to Q101 collector > pin8= 9v Haven't been through them thoroughly yet but most of these look sensible. Presence of the square wave on (TC9142)pin14,15 is a good sign, that's the reference oscillator, and suggests the 9142 may be OK. - Observe (C358)pin7 while alternating the 0/+5 test voltage on the 3rd connector pin, pin 7 should change accordingly to 0V & 9V. Similarly (LB1620)pin11 should be changing. - The hall sensors may still be suspect. They are supplied by being stacked in series with two resistors, one each in the ground leg side and +9V supply side. First thing to do would be to measure the V on the two supply pins of each hall sensor (the pins closer to the motor center). The supply voltage should divided between the 3 sensors and 2 resistors. The halls sensors feed the LB1620 with a differential drive from each sensor to avoid having to make a fixed GND reference, which allowed them to be stacked in series for the supply. In theory you would be able to observe a change on one of the drive pair of each sensor with the scope as you manually rotate the rotor but the change may be too small to observe within the bias from the stacked supply. Properly one would use two scope channels in A-B difference mode to observe the drive pair. - Instead, or in addition, you might try watching the (LB1620)pins1,2,3 outputs while spinning the rotor manually to see if they change. > main link with other info > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/p12w71v69tjgfz7/AAAIReql4Se5ZCkLClPoAVOPa?dl=0 From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 07:22:11 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 08:22:11 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Christian, Thank you, I did find the dump yesterday and to answer your question, I do have 32k of memory (two 16k boards). It is my understanding that if an A gets printed, the A test completed successfully and it is dying at the B test where the last part of the test is to print the letter B on screen. We certainly need a hex dump for the 5100 but I've looked around and found nothing. I don't suppose I can dump my Executable ROS in the condition my machine is in. Is there a list of the Assembler opcodes I can reference? Thanks again for your help, Santo On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 12:23 PM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> execros.asm >> >> doesn't >> exist on the ftp server. If you could send it to me off-line, I would >> > > Sorry, there's a typo: .../ibm/ibm5110/... (instead of 5100). And use FTP > as I said, so just change http:// with ftp:// or use a FTP client. > > BTW I had a look at your screen shot. The register contents is as follows: > R0 - varying around $0090 > R1 - $0090 > R2 - $0000 > R3 - $0600 > R4 - $0006 > R5 - $0202 > R6 - $0005 > R7 - $05C0 > R8 - $00C0 > R9..R14 - $0000 > R15 - $0005 > > R13L1 - $7FFF (last RWS address? Do you have 32kB in your machine?) > > If your machine really halts at stop 'A', then this is strange. R5 should > contain the screen address for the next character. $0202 should be for the > 'C', so the machine might hang at stop 'B'. R15 should contain $00FF. > Having R1 with $0090 implies a negative test instruction at $008C with the > halt instruction at $008E. (R1 is used as link register with conditional > skip instructions. If no skip occurs, the next instruction can be a jump to > a subroutine, and R1 contains the address of the instruction following that > jump. This is automatically done by the CPU). > R3 and R4 might contain the end values after the screen clear routine > (just before the 'A' routine). The 5110 version looks like this: > ; Clear display > 006C 8F40 LBI R15, #' ' > 006E 0FFD MLH R15, R15 > 0070 8D06 LBI R13, #$06 > 0072 5F51 MOVE (R5)+, R15 > 0074 C5D7 SBSH R5, R13 > 0076 F005 BRA $0072 ; -> -$06(R0) > > And the 5100 version could be something like this: > 8200 LBI R2, #' ' > 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 > 8406 LBI R4, #$06 ; R4 <- $0006 > 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 > C347 SBSH R3, R4 > F005 BRA $-6 > The screen is cleared from $0200 (begin of screen) up to (excluding) $0600 > (end of screen). So R3 contains the address of the first byte after the > screen area. > > But to find out what the machine did until this point, I need the > Executable ROS hex dump as described in my last post. Address 0090 is well > within the first 512 bytes so we should get the first couple of diagnostic > routines. > > Christian > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 07:09:35 2015 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:09:35 +0000 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) Message-ID: This is a classic case of "Great minds run in the same ruts" (sometimes rephrased as gutters...) I've almost designed a 4 MB card twice now. Because I'm a cheapskate, I didn't want to use FRAM. And there are very nice SRAMs available: for example, the Cypress CY62167 is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd need two, that's ~$30 total. (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so fuggitaboutit). So, you'd only need the bus interface (no, I'm not going there) and the control logic. These SRAM parts are so speedy (45 ns) that cache isn't needed (obviously). Maybe I'll almost design it for the third time! From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 19 09:29:03 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 10:29:03 -0400 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 19, 2015, at 8:09 AM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > > This is a classic case of "Great minds run in the same ruts" (sometimes > rephrased as gutters...) > > I've almost designed a 4 MB card twice now. Because I'm a cheapskate, I > didn't want to use FRAM. And there are very nice SRAMs available: for > example, the Cypress CY62167 is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd > need two, that's ~$30 total. (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so > fuggitaboutit). I used to think of BGA as not possible for home construction. Then I read a nice article ? https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf ? about reflow soldering using what amounts to a toaster-oven with a temperature control added, which apparently does the job just fine. There are some details to get right, which the article explains. paul From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 19 09:51:47 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 15:51:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > It is my understanding that if an A gets printed, the A test completed > successfully and it is dying at the B test where the last part of the test > is to print the letter B on screen. No, first the letter is printed, then the test is started. > We certainly need a hex dump for the 5100 but I've looked around and found > nothing. I don't suppose I can dump my Executable ROS in the condition my > machine is in. Shure you can, please just do what I told you. Make a screenshot with your camera of the first 512 bytes of the Executable ROS: >> Could you put the picture on your web site or send me an email? And >> please also make the following readable screenshot: >> 1. Put the machine into single-step mode >> 2. Press RESTART >> 3. Switch to DISPLAY REGISTERS >> 4. Make photo I don't have any further clue without that screenshot. > Is there a list of the Assembler opcodes I can reference? Ehm, you did have a look at our web site, don't you? http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/ibm_5110/technik/en/5110.html Navigate to "Programming in machine language --> Opcodes" Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 19 11:02:36 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) Message-ID: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Kahrs > there are very nice SRAMs available: for example, the Cypress CY62167 > is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd need two ... > (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so fuggitaboutit). Actually, one 4Mx8 (assuming it's really only 8 bits wide) wouldn't be as easy to work with as two 2Mx8; since most QBUS cycles are 16-bit word, not byte, you'd have to do two memory cycles for each QBUS cycle -> more complexity. Noel From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Mar 19 11:13:38 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 17:13:38 +0100 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-19 17:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Mark Kahrs > > > there are very nice SRAMs available: for example, the Cypress CY62167 > > is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd need two ... > > (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so fuggitaboutit). > > Actually, one 4Mx8 (assuming it's really only 8 bits wide) wouldn't be as > easy to work with as two 2Mx8; since most QBUS cycles are 16-bit word, not > byte, you'd have to do two memory cycles for each QBUS cycle -> more > complexity. And for the 11/70, we're talking about 32-bit wide memory... Johnny From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 19 11:30:48 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:30:48 -0500 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> On 03/19/2015 09:29 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I used to think of BGA as not possible for home > construction. Then I read a nice article ? > https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf ? > about reflow soldering using what amounts to a > toaster-oven with a temperature control added, which > apparently does the job just fine. There are some details > to get right, which the article explains. I reflow boards in a modified toaster oven, not too different from the one in the picture. But, it did NOT work well when I first tried it. I just hung the thermocouple in the air, and the boards were burnt to a crisp! The IR from the heating elements is absorbed VERY well by the boards, and they heat much faster than the air. So, my trick is to poke a very tiny thermocouple into a plated through-hole in the board, and then it reads the actual temperature of the board. I still have some problems with hotter and cooler areas of the oven, but you can usually find a good compromise. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 19 11:52:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:52:56 -0400 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> References: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 19, 2015, at 12:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 03/19/2015 09:29 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> I used to think of BGA as not possible for home construction. Then I read a nice article ? https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf ? about reflow soldering using what amounts to a toaster-oven with a temperature control added, which apparently does the job just fine. There are some details to get right, which the article explains. > I reflow boards in a modified toaster oven, not too different from the one in the picture. But, it did NOT work well when I first tried it. I just hung the thermocouple in the air, and the boards were burnt to a crisp! The IR from the heating elements is absorbed VERY well by the boards, and they heat much faster than the air. So, my trick is to poke a > very tiny thermocouple into a plated through-hole in the board, and then it reads the actual temperature of the board. I still have some problems with hotter and cooler areas of the oven, but you can usually find a good compromise. Nice solution. Yes, that?s the main detail the article mentions: the sensor has to be in a spot that has similar IR response as the actual board. The solution used in the article is to use a spare (blank) board for a reference. A different board with similar ratio of copper to etch should also work. Your solution is elegant if there?s a suitable spot you can arrange. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 19 13:00:06 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 12:00:06 -0600 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> Message-ID: <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/18/2015 11:57 PM, tony duell wrote: > >> Jay.. think of the children! ..and wives...and other non octal folk >> and how long it will take to explain the shirt! ;-) > > Just quote Tom Lehrer : 'Base 8 is just like Base 10 -- if you're > missing 2 fingers' :-) Arg! I got two MORE fingers. Where is base 12? >> 012 because Octal is where it's at ;) > Ben, with 10 eggs in a Dozen. From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Thu Mar 19 13:22:11 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:22:11 -0700 Subject: BASIC Week 4 starts on Saturday Message-ID: BASIC Week 4 starts on RetroBattlestations on Saturday, March 21st. The program this time around is a Space War inspired turn based game with simple graphics, so it doesn't need a fast computer. This will be the 4th BASIC Week we've done on RetroBattlestations, the previous two used ASCII graphics, and the first one used simple vector graphics. The challenge is about getting out old computers and doing something with them, in the spirit of the old type-in magazine listings. Usually there a lot of ports to various platforms, although the past programs have been a lot smaller. This will be the largest one yet and might be almost too big to actually type in. While the contest is more about having fun with your old computers, there are prizes. At the end of the week I randomly select five winners and send them their choice of two retro themed vinyl stickers: http://imgur.com/a/iAS5T So far the only versions of the program are for an Apple II and the original HP 3000 which used terminal graphics. If anyone would like to contribute a another port, that would be awesome! The program is on github, you can find the link here: http://redd.it/2yi2d2 -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 19 13:43:13 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:43:13 -0400 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <550B18C1.8010503@sbcglobal.net> On 03/19/2015 02:00 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/18/2015 11:57 PM, tony duell wrote: >> >>> Jay.. think of the children! ..and wives...and other non octal folk >>> and how long it will take to explain the shirt! ;-) >> >> Just quote Tom Lehrer : 'Base 8 is just like Base 10 -- if you're >> missing 2 fingers' :-) > > Arg! I got two MORE fingers. Where is base 12? Over there ----> >>> 012 because Octal is where it's at ;) >> > Ben, with 10 eggs in a Dozen. > 42 -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 14:46:52 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 13:46:52 -0600 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tor wrote: > (PAL means Phase Alternating Line, except for the lines/frequency > differences it is really just NTSC but with the phase of the colour > subcarrier alternating every other line. Thus automatically cancelling > out transmission phase errors which would otherwise change the colour. > That's all really: NTSC with automatic colour phase error > cancellation.) NTSC does have alternating color carrier phase on consecutive lines. A horizontal scan line is exactly 227.5 cycles of the color carrier, so the color phase changes 180 degrees on each successive line. In PAL, the scan line is 283.75 cycles of the color carrier, plus a 25 Hz offset so the color carrier phase changes by slightly less than 90 degrees on each successive line. The 25 Hz offset makes digital generation of a correct PAL signal a bit more difficult than NTSC; that is one of the places that a lot of cheap consumer electronics cheats. What PAL does significantly differently than NTSC is that the color burst (in the back porch) doesn't have the same phase as the color carrier. The burst phase is offset 45 degrees in opposite directions on consecutive scan lines, so it alternates by 90 degrees. This is the "alternating" referenced in the name. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 19 15:20:34 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:20:34 -0600 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <550B18C1.8010503@sbcglobal.net> References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <550B18C1.8010503@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <550B2F92.8060607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/19/2015 12:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > 42 > > " (1) X=Y ; Given (2) X^2=XY ; Multiply both sides by X (3) X^2-Y^2=XY-Y^2 ; Subtract Y^2 from both sides (4) (X+Y)(X-Y)=Y(X-Y) ; Factor (5) X+Y=Y ; Cancel out (X-Y) term (6) 2Y=Y ; Substitute X for Y, by equation 1 (7) 2=1 ; Divide both sides by Y -- "Omni", proof that 2 equals 1 " From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:21:36 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:21:36 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Hi Christian, Sorry, I missed the "Single Step" mode line and thought you just wanted the registers. Screenshot is here: http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/exeros-5100.jpg After trying single step mode, I'm in an endless loop and not actually halted, it seems. Do let me know what you think. Santo On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> It is my understanding that if an A gets printed, the A test completed >> successfully and it is dying at the B test where the last part of the test >> is to print the letter B on screen. >> > > No, first the letter is printed, then the test is started. > > We certainly need a hex dump for the 5100 but I've looked around and found >> nothing. I don't suppose I can dump my Executable ROS in the condition my >> machine is in. >> > > Shure you can, please just do what I told you. Make a screenshot with your > camera of the first 512 bytes of the Executable ROS: > >> Could you put the picture on your web site or send me an email? And >>> please also make the following readable screenshot: >>> 1. Put the machine into single-step mode >>> 2. Press RESTART >>> 3. Switch to DISPLAY REGISTERS >>> 4. Make photo >>> >> > I don't have any further clue without that screenshot. > > Is there a list of the Assembler opcodes I can reference? >> > > Ehm, you did have a look at our web site, don't you? > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ > dev_en/ibm_5110/technik/en/5110.html > Navigate to "Programming in machine language --> Opcodes" > > Christian > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 15:38:35 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:38:35 -0600 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Transcribed but not proofread: 00001f800202805380c4f08408807868c0a18808807868c0a08c08807868c008 0400ff202d343821423707808d8088141c0b808d8088141c0d808d808814148d c0001f1f038a038280078f8001830001800202818053c4f0318c098858c08ea1 840000ff523a3d40757d7f141d162304202d3432462137058d708480919c9f90 09c7f0758f0fc0007531a08f318031800101e3a8730163e403d3f7530663d353 9d820d50ff0ef400505c031f1f111e101d300d323121430d46535f5453768788 07d3b00367e505530ae2d3e90967099508eb30f0200d0c0b0085cfcf00cfcff0 27987778a80fa9a82a0e980c9bb88c8ab50c3cc2d7e4e8e8f4f6eae200e1e901 cfcff0c0c000c0c000cfcf00c5c500cccc002121847580a031c1f921c0fa8075 e8e001e3eb00e4ec00ede500eee600e7ef002e5c502812202e28073f330a5350 8001858102835113007580018b31a132a43315858105848200a000a0cb807ea0 111d10202d2028000050141d1a1017101b100450dae4e0b5a4adc4d0dad1d8a3 8f0a0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c0f0c ff040e041e042e043e044e045e046e047e048e049e04ae04be04ce04de04ee04 0f807e75121d1f7515a0c0f01175218a8004808001830001a02531131f800580 fed0d850faf5ff5040f0f40542507d3a465d40141d16230403141d04ff525d59 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 19 15:38:36 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:38:36 -0400 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <550B2F92.8060607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <550B18C1.8010503@sbcglobal.net> <550B2F92.8060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <550B33CC.2030005@sbcglobal.net> On 03/19/2015 04:20 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/19/2015 12:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> >> 42 >> >> > " > (1) X=Y ; Given > (2) X^2=XY ; Multiply both sides by X > (3) X^2-Y^2=XY-Y^2 ; Subtract Y^2 from both sides > (4) (X+Y)(X-Y)=Y(X-Y) ; Factor > (5) X+Y=Y ; Cancel out (X-Y) term > (6) 2Y=Y ; Substitute X for Y, by equation 1 > (7) 2=1 ; Divide both sides by Y > -- "Omni", proof that 2 equals 1 > " :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 19 15:44:03 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:44:03 +0000 Subject: VCFMW 10 Hotel Rooms In-Reply-To: <550B2F92.8060607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <8xteahb96on462ylq0t22r0b.1426735194376@email.android.com> <550B0EA6.5050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <550B18C1.8010503@sbcglobal.net> <550B2F92.8060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <63C82147-2E62-49A1-AD85-8EB1C9E6101B@swri.edu> I think my son?s favorite ever stated reason for learning electronics is so that he can build a calculator that, when this step (or any other division by zero) is performed, bursts intentionally into flame. - Mark On Mar 19, 2015, at 3:20 PM, ben wrote: > (5) X+Y=Y ; Cancel out (X-Y) term From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 19 15:59:17 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 16:59:17 -0400 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> References: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20150319205917.GA16120@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 11:30:48AM -0500, Jon Elson wrote: >I reflow boards in a modified toaster oven, not too different from the one in >the picture. But, it did NOT work well when I first tried it. I just hung >the thermocouple in the air, and the boards were burnt to a crisp! The IR >from the heating elements is absorbed VERY well by the boards, and they heat >much faster than the air. So, my trick is to poke a >very tiny thermocouple into a plated through-hole in the board, and then it >reads the actual temperature of the board. I still have some problems with >hotter and cooler areas of the oven, but you can usually find a good >compromise. Same experience here. Many fried boards until I tried touching the (bare -- not sheathed) thermocouple to the board (doesn't have to be in a PTH, although that might stop it from occasionally twanging and sweeping components off). I've only minimally tried BGAs (just liquid flux w/no solder paste at all seemed to be the answer there) but I've had fantastic luck with QFPs, SOICs, TSSOPs, and and all kinds of SMT passive components. www.oshstencils.com makes it just too easy. John Wilson D Bit From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 16:54:16 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:54:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress Message-ID: <044701d0628f$3f7ff460$be7fdd20$@gmail.com> >Christian Corti wrote: >Ehm, you did have a look at our web site, don't you? >http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/ibm_5110/technik/e n/5110.html Wow, nice! Highly informative site. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 18:08:31 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:08:31 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: <044701d0628f$3f7ff460$be7fdd20$@gmail.com> References: <044701d0628f$3f7ff460$be7fdd20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, something is definitely wrong. I can step through the boot process and at one point I see one A. Then I see "A A". Then it goes blank. Then it starts all over again. I have taken out the BASIC ROS, the ROS controller, the IO cable driver and one of the memory cards and this still occurs. Taking anything else out results in garbage or a blank screen. Thought this would be relevant. Also, thanks for the transcription. I was going to type it in myself. Santo On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > >Christian Corti wrote: > >Ehm, you did have a look at our web site, don't you? > > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/ibm_5110/technik/e > n/5110.html > > Wow, nice! Highly informative site. > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 19 20:33:07 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 20:33:07 -0500 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <20150319205917.GA16120@dbit.dbit.com> References: <550AF9B8.7080506@pico-systems.com> <20150319205917.GA16120@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <550B78D3.7090304@pico-systems.com> On 03/19/2015 03:59 PM, John Wilson wrote: > Same experience here. Many fried boards until I tried > touching the (bare -- not sheathed) thermocouple to the > board (doesn't have to be in a PTH, although that might > stop it from occasionally twanging and sweeping components > off). I've only minimally tried BGAs (just liquid flux > w/no solder paste at all seemed to be the answer there) > but I've had fantastic luck with QFPs, SOICs, TSSOPs, and > and all kinds of SMT passive components. > www.oshstencils.com makes it just too easy. John Wilson D Bit Right, I've never tried the BGAs either. I have done many thousands of SOIC and TSSOP parts, and a few thousand QFPs up to 128 pin 0.5mm pitch parts. I've probably done over 100K passives, generally 0805, but I have one board that is 0603 that now works pretty well. I do have a pick and place machine. I make my own stencils with gear I used to use to make PC boards. I get brass .003" shim stock and laminate it on both sides with dry film etch photoresist, just as if it was a PC board. I have a laser photoplotter I made, and make the artwork for the solder stencil with that. I make a normal and a mirror image, and glue them together on a light table, with a little spacer between to compensate for the shim stock thickness. I just glue one edge and let the glue dry. Slip the shim stock with resist between the artwork, expose both sides and develop and etch. It took a while to get the whole process dialed in just right, but now it works quite well. Part of the trick is to reduce the apertures to be smaller than the solder pads on the board. Jon From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 19 23:48:18 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 23:48:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/E EAE Troubleshooting Message-ID: I've recently been in the midst of repairing an EAE set for the Omnibus. I finally got it working tonight. Surprisingly, unless I was simply reading it wrong, it appears as though the M8340 etch rev. D is in fact compatible with M8341 etch rev. D, despite what the DEC ECO Log suggests. Now, on the other hand, the M8340 does have some ECO changes, but some of these are not cited in the log, perhaps indicating that it was brought up to an equivalent revision E or F, but there are still some big differences particularly involving the inputs to the instruction register. Anyways, here's an album: http://imgur.com/a/QVRLs The TL;DR of it all is I replaced one bad IC. I also ended up making a board that replaces the hard-to-find Signetics N8235 with easy-to-find 7400-series components. A big thanks to all those involved (you know who you are!) in helping get this set functional again, just in time for VCF East and Southeast! Kyle From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 20 00:39:29 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 05:39:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises Message-ID: I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM battery and installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. The machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even though nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, buzzes, and burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at the time. I'm quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking up RF noise from the system bus. What does this symptom indicate? Should I recap the whole machine? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 20 01:21:42 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 07:21:42 +0100 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> On 2015-03-19 17:13, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-19 17:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Mark Kahrs >> >> > there are very nice SRAMs available: for example, the Cypress >> CY62167 >> > is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd need two ... >> > (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so fuggitaboutit). >> >> Actually, one 4Mx8 (assuming it's really only 8 bits wide) wouldn't be as >> easy to work with as two 2Mx8; since most QBUS cycles are 16-bit word, >> not >> byte, you'd have to do two memory cycles for each QBUS cycle -> more >> complexity. > > And for the 11/70, we're talking about 32-bit wide memory... Just because nobody mentioned it so far, what about the cy7c1460? 1mx36, so you even get the parity if you like one. Used them quite a lot, are nice chips, and speedy too. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Mar 20 01:27:09 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:27:09 +1300 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes it sounds like caps Dave. A very common issue with those machines. Terry (Tez ) On 20/03/2015 6:39 PM, wrote: > > I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM battery and > installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. The > machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even though > nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, buzzes, and > burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at the time. I'm > quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking up RF noise from the > system bus. What does this symptom indicate? Should I recap the whole > machine? > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Mar 19 13:36:41 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 19:36:41 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503191836.t2JIajKt010250-t2JIajKu010250@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Well the verifications taken here: - Observe (C358)pin7 while alternating the 0/+5 test voltage on the 3rd connector pin, pin 7 should change accordingly to 0V & 9V. => NO it remain statically at 7,76V - Similarly (LB1620)pin11 should be changing. => NO it remain at 3,44V - The hall sensors may still be suspect. They are supplied by being stacked in series with two resistors, one each in the ground leg side and +9V supply side. First thing to do would be to measure the V on the two supply pins of each hall sensor (the pins closer to the motor center). The supply voltage should divided between the 3 sensors and 2 resistors. => The chain is : - from the +5vdc to R109 = 6,76V - then from R109 to the 1st hall sensor = 5,17V - then from the 1st hall sensor to the 2nd hall sensor = 3,62V - then from the 3rd hall sensor / R110 to the gnd = 2,2v So at each hall sensor we have (potential difference): 1st = 1.59V 2nd = 1.55v 3rd = 1.42v The halls sensors feed the LB1620 with a differential drive from each sensor to avoid having to make a fixed GND reference, which allowed them to be stacked in series for the supply. In theory you would be able to observe a change on one of the drive pair of each sensor with the scope as you manually rotate the rotor but the change may be too small to observe within the bias from the stacked supply. Properly one would use two scope channels in A-B difference mode to observe the drive pair. => confirm that rotating the motor my voltmeter change a bit its measured value - Instead, or in addition, you might try watching the (LB1620)pins1,2,3 outputs while spinning the rotor manually to see if they change. => confirm that rotating the motor my voltmeter change a bit its measured value Could at this point the problem to be on c358c or the transistor q101? Enrico From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 19 16:43:16 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 14:43:16 -0700 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503191836.t2JIajKt010250-t2JIajKu010250@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503191836.t2JIajKt010250-t2JIajKu010250@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: <9BB77286-2B0F-4274-84B1-E4083E344B20@cs.ubc.ca> See schematic: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/mitsubishi8fdd.pdf On 2015-Mar-19, at 11:36 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Well the verifications taken here: > > - Observe (C358)pin7 while alternating the 0/+5 test voltage on the 3rd > connector pin, pin 7 should change accordingly to 0V & 9V. => NO it remain > statically at 7,76V > > - Similarly (LB1620)pin11 should be changing. => NO it remain at 3,44V > - The hall sensors may still be suspect. They are supplied by being stacked > in series with two resistors, one each in the ground leg side and +9V supply > side. First thing to do would be to measure the V on the two supply pins of > each hall sensor (the pins closer to the motor center). The supply voltage > should divided between the 3 sensors and 2 resistors. > => The chain is : > - from the +5vdc to R109 = 6,76V > - then from R109 to the 1st hall sensor = 5,17V > - then from the 1st hall sensor to the 2nd hall sensor = 3,62V > - then from the 3rd hall sensor / R110 to the gnd = 2,2v > So at each hall sensor we have (potential difference): > 1st = 1.59V > 2nd = 1.55v > 3rd = 1.42v This may be a concern. We don't know just what hall-effect sensors are being used but I found a datasheet for functionally similar 4-pin sensors. The specs may of course be different, but the supply voltage range in that datasheet is 2.2-12V with 3.25-5mA current. From calculations, operating at 9V, I was wondering if the voltage drop across the resistors left what may be too low a voltage on each sensor. Recall we concluded the regulator voltage would be 9V because that fit inbetween the limits of the 9142 and 1620 specs. However we now know the 9142 GND is raised by 3.5V, lowering the supply to that IC. Ii may be the regulator voltage is supposed to be 12V rather than 9. This would give: - 12V for the 1620, within spec, - 12-3.5=8.5V for the 9142, within spec, - and raise the voltage across each hall sensor. > The halls sensors feed the LB1620 with a differential drive from each sensor > to avoid having to make a fixed GND reference, which allowed them to be > stacked in series for the supply. In theory you would be able to observe a > change on one of the drive pair of each sensor with the scope as you > manually rotate the rotor but the change may be too small to observe within > the bias from the stacked supply. Properly one would use two scope channels > in A-B difference mode to observe the drive pair. > => confirm that rotating the motor my voltmeter change a bit its measured > value How much (voltage change)? > - Instead, or in addition, you might try watching the (LB1620)pins1,2,3 > outputs while spinning the rotor manually to see if they change. > => confirm that rotating the motor my voltmeter change a bit its measured > value > > Could at this point the problem to be on c358c or the transistor q101? The 358 could be a concern, or the diode at location R117, or Q101. R117 looks like it was supposed to be a pull-down resistor but was installed with a diode as a reverse-bias clamp instead, for who knows what reason. You could try removing Q101, then with the limiting resistor feeding the 3rd connector pin, watch what happens to (LM358)pin7 while toggling the control voltage into the limiting resistor. But also watch what happens at (LM358)pin5 to ensure it changes. The concern is that the R117 diode, if damaged/shorted, could be clamping the input voltage to the op amp comparator. Expected operation of the 358 half with pin 7 open (Q101 removed): pin 5 pin 6 pin 7 ------ ------ ------ 0V 1.25V ~ 0V >1.25V 1.25V ~ 9V Also with Q101 removed, you could try connecting (LC9142)pin11 to pin 1 (see 9142 datasheet). If the motor still doesn't run it may be time to consider changing the voltage regulator to 12V. From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Thu Mar 19 18:00:37 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:00:37 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <9BB77286-2B0F-4274-84B1-E4083E344B20@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201503192300.t2JN0fOP021768-t2JN0fOQ021768@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> I desoldered Q101 and i reconnect the 12v zener D102 and the resistor R112 and I measured those voltages on 358: 1=6,32v 2=6,37v 3=6,36v 4=0v 5=0,74v 6=1,752v 7=11,49v 8=12,7v Have I to resolder just the q101 now? Enrico From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 20 02:22:57 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 00:22:57 -0700 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503192300.t2JN0fOP021768-t2JN0fOQ021768@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503192300.t2JN0fOP021768-t2JN0fOQ021768@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-19, at 4:00 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > I desoldered Q101 and i reconnect the 12v zener D102 and the resistor R112 > and I measured those voltages on 358: > 1=6,32v > 2=6,37v > 3=6,36v > 4=0v > 5=0,74v > 6=1,752v > 7=11,49v > 8=12,7v > > Have I to resolder just the q101 now? It looks like the 358 is faulty, but you should try pulling pin 5 high/low while watching pin 7 again - see last part of my previous message. Also the bit about pulling the 9142 pin 11 to pin 1. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 20 04:37:11 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:37:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Screenshot is here: > http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/exeros-5100.jpg Ok, here we go: 0000 0004 DW 0004 ; R0L0 0002 0000 DW 0000 ; R1L0 ; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ; Clear memory from $0008 to $01FF 0004 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices 0006 8200 LBI R2, #$00 0008 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 000A 0324 MOVE R3, R2 000C 8308 LBI R3, #$08 ; R3 <- $0008 000E 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 0010 8402 LBI R4, #$02 0012 C347 SBSH R3, R4 0014 F007 BRA $000E ; Loop ; R3 contains now $0200 ; Size installed memory in increments of 16 kbytes ; The last usable memory location will be in R8 ; Check if memory at $4000 is present 0016 8840 LBI R8, #$40 0018 088D MLH R8, R8 001A 8800 LBI R8, #$00 ; R8 <- $4000 001C 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 ; ($4000) <- $00 001E 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- 0020 C10C SNS R1 ; 0022 A01B BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump ; Check if memory at $8000 is present 0024 8880 LBI R8, #$80 0026 088D MLH R8, R8 0028 8800 LBI R8, #$00 002A 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 002C 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- 002E C10C SNS R1 0030 A00D BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump ; Check if memory at $C000 is present 0032 88C0 LBI R8, #$C0 0034 088D MLH R8, R8 0036 8800 LBI R8, #$00 0038 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 003A 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- 003C C104 SS R1 ; no memory here, skip 003E 088D MLH R8, R8 ; last location is $FFFF 0040 C804 SS R8 0042 0000 HALT ; error, low byte not $FF 0044 10F0 CTRL $0, #$F0 0046 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices 0048 0532 INC R5, R3 ; R5 <- $0201 004A 83AA LBI R3, #$AA 004C 033D MLH R3, R3 ; R3 <- $AAAA 004E 8420 LBI R4, #$20 0050 8705 LBI R7, #$05 0052 077D MLH R7, R7 0054 87FF LBI R7, #$FF ; R7 <- $05FF 0056 8104 LBI R1, #$04 0058 011D MLH R1, R1 005A 8136 LBI R1, #$36 ; R1 <- $0436 005C 0203 INC2 R2, R0 005E 0014 RET R1 ; call $0436 ; Clear memory from R9L0 to end of display 0060 8200 LBI R2, #$00 0062 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 0064 0324 MOVE R3, R2 0066 8312 LBI R3, #$12 ; R3 <- $0012 0068 8406 LBI R4, #$06 006A 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 006C C347 SBSH R3, R4 006E F005 BRA $006A ; loop 0070 381D MOVE $3A, R8 ; last memory location to R13L1 ; Put 0000, 1111, 2222, ... into locations $0080-00BF ; This is an aid to locate the registers in display ; register mode 0072 87C0 LBI R7, #$C0 0074 0894 MOVE R8, R9 0076 8880 LBI R8, #$80 ; R8 <- $0080 0078 5981 MOVE (R8)+, R9 007A C90C SNS R9 007C 89EF LBI R9, #$EF 007E A910 ADD R9, #$11 0080 099D MLH R9, R9 0082 C872 SE R8, R7 0084 F00D BRA $0078 ; -> -$0E(R0) ; --- Test A --- ; Bus In bit test 0086 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'A' to $0201 0088 8FFF LBI R15, #$FF 008A 00FE GETB R15, $0 008C CF04 SS R15 008E 0000 HALT ; --- Test B --- ; Op Code test 0090 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'B' to $0202 0092 351C MOVE $38, R5 ; save R5 to R12L1 0094 A003 BRA $009A 0096 81FF LBI R1, #$FF 0098 311F MOVE $3E, R1 009A 8101 LBI R1, #$01 [...] So everything looks perfect, except that test 'A' fails. R15 should contain $00FF after the 'GETB R15, $0', but instead it contains $0005. Now, that's many bits stuck at zero... (the Bus In lines are active high). Is there any difference in the value if you run the machine with terminator (directly attached to the computer) and without terminator? Are all power cables correctly seated? Somehow I have the impression that the internal terminator or pullups on the Bus In lines don't work as they should. Or the input receivers (whatever they are) are toast for 6 out of 8 lines. According to the 5100 MIM page C-9, a GETB with address 0 is not used, so should read $FF. Hmm, another thought: Maybe there's an addressing error, and instead of addressing device 0, it addresses e.g. device 1. You should definitely also check the DA (device address) lines. Christian From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Mar 20 06:32:03 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:32:03 +0100 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <550C0533.6040108@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-20 07:21, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2015-03-19 17:13, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> On 2015-03-19 17:02, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Mark Kahrs >>> >>> > there are very nice SRAMs available: for example, the Cypress >>> CY62167 >>> > is a 2Mx8 1Mx16 RAM in 48 pin TSOP. So you'd need two ... >>> > (n.b. there is a 4Mx8 but it's only in BGA, so fuggitaboutit). >>> >>> Actually, one 4Mx8 (assuming it's really only 8 bits wide) wouldn't >>> be as >>> easy to work with as two 2Mx8; since most QBUS cycles are 16-bit word, >>> not >>> byte, you'd have to do two memory cycles for each QBUS cycle -> more >>> complexity. >> >> And for the 11/70, we're talking about 32-bit wide memory... > > Just because nobody mentioned it so far, what about the cy7c1460? > 1mx36, so you even get the parity if you like one. > Used them quite a lot, are nice chips, and speedy too. Sounds like a perfect fit for the 11/70. One chip, and you're done. :-) Johnny From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 20 06:40:13 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:40:13 +0100 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550C0533.6040108@update.uu.se> References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> <550C0533.6040108@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <550C071D.5070800@e-bbes.com> On 2015-03-20 12:32, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-20 07:21, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> Just because nobody mentioned it so far, what about the cy7c1460? >> 1mx36, so you even get the parity if you like one. >> Used them quite a lot, are nice chips, and speedy too. > > Sounds like a perfect fit for the 11/70. One chip, and you're done. :-) guess, why we used it for the ks10 ;-) From azd30 at telus.net Fri Mar 20 11:00:01 2015 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 10:00:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1037217443.22660962.1426867201876.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Yes. It needs a re-cap job. SE/30's are notorious for that apparently. We just had that discussion on the Seattle RetroComp list. check these out: http://applefool.com/se30/images/img/2d9cbc05.png https://wiki.68kmla.org/Capacitor_Replacement#Macintosh_SE.2F30_.28630-4198-11.29 Hope this helps. cheers -- alex ----- Original Message ----- > From: dave at 661.org > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 10:39:29 PM > Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises > > > I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM battery and > installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. The > machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even though > nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, buzzes, and > burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at the time. I'm > quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking up RF noise from the > system bus. What does this symptom indicate? Should I recap the whole > machine? From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 11:52:14 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 11:52:14 -0500 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the meantime, have you re-soldered the power connections to the analog board? There's a group of them, large-ish pins (might be a connector body, don't totally recall), which tend to develop near-invisible cracks in the joints where they meet the board. AFAIK the issue is common to all of the classic compact Macs, and it can cause all sorts of odd problems. On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Yes it sounds like caps Dave. A very common issue with those machines. > > Terry (Tez ) > On 20/03/2015 6:39 PM, wrote: > > > > > I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM battery and > > installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. The > > machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even though > > nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, buzzes, and > > burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at the time. I'm > > quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking up RF noise from > the > > system bus. What does this symptom indicate? Should I recap the whole > > machine? > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dave at 661.org > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 12:24:24 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 13:24:24 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: First off, thank you for disassembling the 5100 Executable ROS. I just saw the link to your website and I can say I lived there for a while. I first saw this 5100 for sale back in April 2014 and I agreed to buy from the seller at that time, During that time I looked for any information I could find on the 5100 and read every word of your site. It didn't make much sense to me because you have to experience the true hardware first but I appreciated it anyway. It took me just under a year of patience to get the seller to complete the deal (I think he was worried about shipping to another country) but it's here now so thank you for your site. If I can get mine to work, maybe I can help make a 5100 version of your emulator :) Early on I tried with the terminator but my I/O cable driver card had severely rusted ICs. I will try again with the terminator and see if there is a difference. I am writing this down for what I am going to check when I get home: 1. Check with terminator 2: Check bus lines as indicated in the IBM 5100 Maintenance manual Page 3-14: *Halt code: A* *Test: Turns all bus in bits on* *Area tested: A2*, F2, G2, H2* *Service Aids: Probe the 'bus in' lines on the F2 card. All bus in bits should be up or pulsing.* Note: F2 = Base I/O board (525 - 528) Page 5-22 to 5-25 = Base I/O card F2 logic and wiring Page 5-24 bottom has references to Bus In lines but I wouldn't know where to begin probing them. Your site mentions the A2 connector which is referred to on page 5-15 at the bottom. I can check that. Thank you once again and if you can post the full disassembly, I would appreciate that. If I am able to get past this, I'm fairly certain I won' t be sailing through the rest of the tests. Santo On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: > >> Screenshot is here: >> http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/exeros-5100.jpg >> > > Ok, here we go: > > 0000 0004 DW 0004 ; R0L0 > 0002 0000 DW 0000 ; R1L0 > > ; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ; Clear memory from $0008 to $01FF > > 0004 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices > 0006 8200 LBI R2, #$00 > 0008 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 > 000A 0324 MOVE R3, R2 > 000C 8308 LBI R3, #$08 ; R3 <- $0008 > 000E 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 > 0010 8402 LBI R4, #$02 > 0012 C347 SBSH R3, R4 > 0014 F007 BRA $000E ; Loop > > ; R3 contains now $0200 > > ; Size installed memory in increments of 16 kbytes > ; The last usable memory location will be in R8 > > ; Check if memory at $4000 is present > > 0016 8840 LBI R8, #$40 > 0018 088D MLH R8, R8 > 001A 8800 LBI R8, #$00 ; R8 <- $4000 > 001C 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 ; ($4000) <- $00 > 001E 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- > 0020 C10C SNS R1 ; > 0022 A01B BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump > > ; Check if memory at $8000 is present > > 0024 8880 LBI R8, #$80 > 0026 088D MLH R8, R8 > 0028 8800 LBI R8, #$00 > 002A 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 > 002C 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- > 002E C10C SNS R1 > 0030 A00D BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump > > ; Check if memory at $C000 is present > > 0032 88C0 LBI R8, #$C0 > 0034 088D MLH R8, R8 > 0036 8800 LBI R8, #$00 > 0038 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 > 003A 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- > 003C C104 SS R1 ; no memory here, skip > 003E 088D MLH R8, R8 ; last location is $FFFF > > 0040 C804 SS R8 > 0042 0000 HALT ; error, low byte not $FF > > 0044 10F0 CTRL $0, #$F0 > 0046 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices > > 0048 0532 INC R5, R3 ; R5 <- $0201 > > 004A 83AA LBI R3, #$AA > 004C 033D MLH R3, R3 ; R3 <- $AAAA > > 004E 8420 LBI R4, #$20 > > 0050 8705 LBI R7, #$05 > 0052 077D MLH R7, R7 > 0054 87FF LBI R7, #$FF ; R7 <- $05FF > > 0056 8104 LBI R1, #$04 > 0058 011D MLH R1, R1 > 005A 8136 LBI R1, #$36 ; R1 <- $0436 > 005C 0203 INC2 R2, R0 > 005E 0014 RET R1 ; call $0436 > > ; Clear memory from R9L0 to end of display > > 0060 8200 LBI R2, #$00 > 0062 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 > 0064 0324 MOVE R3, R2 > 0066 8312 LBI R3, #$12 ; R3 <- $0012 > 0068 8406 LBI R4, #$06 > 006A 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 > 006C C347 SBSH R3, R4 > 006E F005 BRA $006A ; loop > > 0070 381D MOVE $3A, R8 ; last memory location to > R13L1 > > ; Put 0000, 1111, 2222, ... into locations > $0080-00BF > ; This is an aid to locate the registers in display > ; register mode > 0072 87C0 LBI R7, #$C0 > 0074 0894 MOVE R8, R9 > 0076 8880 LBI R8, #$80 ; R8 <- $0080 > 0078 5981 MOVE (R8)+, R9 > 007A C90C SNS R9 > 007C 89EF LBI R9, #$EF > 007E A910 ADD R9, #$11 > 0080 099D MLH R9, R9 > 0082 C872 SE R8, R7 > 0084 F00D BRA $0078 ; -> -$0E(R0) > > ; --- Test A --- > ; Bus In bit test > > 0086 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'A' to $0201 > 0088 8FFF LBI R15, #$FF > 008A 00FE GETB R15, $0 > 008C CF04 SS R15 > 008E 0000 HALT > > ; --- Test B --- > ; Op Code test > > 0090 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'B' to $0202 > 0092 351C MOVE $38, R5 ; save R5 to R12L1 > 0094 A003 BRA $009A > > 0096 81FF LBI R1, #$FF > 0098 311F MOVE $3E, R1 > > 009A 8101 LBI R1, #$01 > [...] > > > So everything looks perfect, except that test 'A' fails. R15 should > contain $00FF after the 'GETB R15, $0', but instead it contains $0005. Now, > that's many bits stuck at zero... (the Bus In lines are active high). > Is there any difference in the value if you run the machine with > terminator (directly attached to the computer) and without terminator? > Are all power cables correctly seated? Somehow I have the impression that > the internal terminator or pullups on the Bus In lines don't work as they > should. Or the input receivers (whatever they are) are toast for 6 out of 8 > lines. > According to the 5100 MIM page C-9, a GETB with address 0 is not used, so > should read $FF. Hmm, another thought: Maybe there's an addressing error, > and instead of addressing device 0, it addresses e.g. device 1. You should > definitely also check the DA (device address) lines. > > Christian > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 20 12:28:53 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:28:53 -0500 Subject: Amiga 30th anniversary event kickstarter in July at CHM Message-ID: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/890300835/amiga-30th-anniversary-in-california - John From jonas at otter.se Fri Mar 20 12:40:47 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:40:47 +0100 Subject: Old NTSC tricks: 240p? In-Reply-To: <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> References: <917818081.1249726.1426674348329.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <748728BA-97DA-4B69-AF9D-2DE46DF3F82C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <550C5B9F.10307@otter.se> On 2015-03-18 14:53, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 18, 2015, at 6:25 AM, Tom Watson wrote: >> >> A discussion about sync rates on a TV signal. >> >> ... >> Many of the broadcast standards have been dictated by governments. I believe that the 625/50 standard is "CCIR? > At one time there were at least four B&W video transmission standards in Europe (we had a tube TV with a 4-position selection knob to support them). 625/50 regular, 625/50 inverted in some way (?) used by the Dutch speaking Belgian stations, 819/50 for France, and a different 819/50 for French speaking Belgian stations. > > paul > > > There are a number of CCIR 625/50 standards, as well as other CCIR/ITU-R standards for other broadcast systems. CCIR was a precursor to ITU-R, which is a UN agency, in common with the FAO, the ICAO, the ILO, the IMO, the IMF, etc etc. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 13:18:32 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 12:18:32 -0600 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: <550C071D.5070800@e-bbes.com> References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> <550C0533.6040108@update.uu.se> <550C071D.5070800@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:40 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > guess, why we used it for the ks10 ;-) You designed a new memory card for the KS10? From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Fri Mar 20 14:26:07 2015 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:26:07 +0100 Subject: R: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201503201926.t2KJQCWe031546-t2KJQCWf031546@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> IT WORKS!!! IT WORKS!!! AGAIN!!!!! Thanks BRENT!!!! Thanks for the schematics. Well the problem were 3 solders. After to insert the D102 zener (maybe 12,5V) and the resistor R112 (180ohm) on their position it I set the 3rd wire to the ground, the pin7 of c358c change its level. I reconnect also the transistor Q101. The spindle motor do not want to work. I remember that pin 1,2 and 3 were soldered even on the component side of the PCB so I would wanted to try to solder them again: the spindle motor begun to rotate. What emotion!!!! I not know if it rotate at the correct speed cause I have to rebuild on a table my old pc an to connect the 8" drive to see if with IMD software I will can to read a 8" floppy disk correctly, but at this moment the spindle motor works again!! Thanks A lot Enrico From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 20 16:08:05 2015 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 14:08:05 -0700 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On March 20, 2015 9:52:14 AM PDT, "drlegendre ." wrote: > In the meantime, have you re-soldered the power connections to the > analog > board? There's a group of them, large-ish pins (might be a connector > body, > don't totally recall), which tend to develop near-invisible cracks in > the > joints where they meet the board. > > AFAIK the issue is common to all of the classic compact Macs, and it > can > cause all sorts of odd problems. > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 1:27 AM, Terry Stewart > > wrote: > > > Yes it sounds like caps Dave. A very common issue with those > machines. > > > > Terry (Tez ) > > On 20/03/2015 6:39 PM, wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM > battery and > > > installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. > The > > > machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even > though > > > nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, > buzzes, and > > > burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at the > time. I'm > > > quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking up RF noise > from > > the > > > system bus. What does this symptom indicate? Should I recap the > whole > > > machine? > > > > > > -- > > > David Griffith > > > dave at 661.org > > > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > > A: Top-posting. > > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > > > Would that be the cause of a flicker in the crt? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 20 16:27:37 2015 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 22:27:37 +0100 Subject: 4 MB memory unibus/qbus card (was Qbus split I&D?) In-Reply-To: References: <20150319160236.120DF18C0DF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550AF5B2.6070408@update.uu.se> <550BBC76.10602@e-bbes.com> <550C0533.6040108@update.uu.se> <550C071D.5070800@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <550C90C9.9090509@e-bbes.com> On 2015-03-20 19:18, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:40 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> guess, why we used it for the ks10 ;-) > > You designed a new memory card for the KS10? Sorry, just FPGA stuff, not the real thing :( From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 20 18:03:49 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 16:03:49 -0700 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> On 03/20/2015 02:08 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Would that be the cause of a flicker in the crt? To me, it sounds as if there's an arc going on in the FBT. But that's just from general knowledge--I have no experience with Mac SEs. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Mar 20 19:53:44 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 19:53:44 -0500 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> References: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/20/2015 02:08 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Would that be the cause of a flicker in the crt? >> > > To me, it sounds as if there's an arc going on in the FBT. But that's > just from general knowledge--I have no experience with Mac SEs. > > > It's been a while, but as I said, those power connections can cause all sorts of odd issues. Just carefully & completely re-flow them with some SN63 material (if you have it, else SN60 will do) and know that it's one issue you won't have to face. IIRC, one unit with that problem had flicker, static in the speaker and also system instability. It was either an SE/30 or a Plus, I had several of each model at the time. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 20 20:41:25 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 18:41:25 -0700 Subject: How to save two Mitsubishi M2896 drive (spindle motor smoked!) In-Reply-To: <201503201926.t2KJQCWe031546-t2KJQCWf031546@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> References: <201503201926.t2KJQCWe031546-t2KJQCWf031546@SMTP01.dsl.vodafone.it> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-20, at 12:26 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > IT WORKS!!! IT WORKS!!! AGAIN!!!!! > Thanks BRENT!!!! Thanks for the schematics. > > Well the problem were 3 solders. After to insert the D102 zener (maybe > 12,5V) and the resistor R112 (180ohm) on their position it I set the 3rd > wire to the ground, the pin7 of c358c change its level. I reconnect also the > transistor Q101. The spindle motor do not want to work. > I remember that pin 1,2 and 3 were soldered even on the component side of > the PCB so I would wanted to try to solder them again: the spindle motor > begun to rotate. What emotion!!!! > > I not know if it rotate at the correct speed cause I have to rebuild on a > table my old pc an to connect the 8" drive to see if with IMD software I > will can to read a 8" floppy disk correctly, but at this moment the spindle > motor works again!! Great; if the 3rd-pin motor control does work then the 358 is likely OK and the speed regulation (that uses the other half of the 358) is likely good as well. From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 01:00:51 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2015 23:00:51 -0700 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0CD3B64A454A468585B501608FFEF4A2@workshop> A classic case of Mac SE leaking electrolytic caps. Soon your sound will disappear completely. Then your Mac SE/30 won't even boot. You can confirm looking for shiny leaks traces around the caps. Very easy to take care of. Replace all of them, as they will all go bad. But there aren't many of them, I think I counted just 11. Most of them are of the 10 uF variety if I remember. Surface mount with leads hidden underneath the caps, a bit annoying to remove, but you can pretty much break them off the board carefully. The leads should break off at the cap and stay attached on the board. Then desolder the lead remnants and clean off the old solder with copper wick until you get pristine pads. Clean any spilled electrolyte under the caps thoroughly. Replace them with regular 10 uF ones - or whatever value is needed. I used standard axial through holes ones, just soldered the bent leads on the traces. It's even written on the board where the + go! Thanks Steve Jobs. If I could attach pictures of the before and after, I would... I can send them to you off line if you want. Actually I see your email, I will. Marc On 20/03/2015 6:39 PM, wrote: > I'm gradually restoring a Mac SE/30. Today I got a new PRAM battery > and installed it. There was no battery leakage, so I'm good there. > The machine seems to run just fine. The big problem now is that even > though nothing should be emitted from the speaker, I'm getting zips, > buzzes, and burbles from it depending on what the computer is doing at > the time. I'm quite sure the the sound circuitry is somehow picking > up RF noise from the system bus. What does this symptom indicate? > Should I recap the whole machine? > > David Griffith > dave at 661.org From brain at jbrain.com Sat Mar 21 01:23:58 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 01:23:58 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 4 + 88 boot disk (81-232 ROM) Message-ID: <550D0E7E.6040701@jbrain.com> There seems to be quite a few options for a boot disk for a K4+88 here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/disks/kpro/ The unit has a 81-232 ROM. Gene (again, thanks), sent some disks, but the 81-232 one did not work. I created a disk from one of the images on the site, and the unit boots (yay!), but not sure if I am using the best image for the unit. Any particular image I should use? Also, any links to the '88 stuff for this unit? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 03:17:14 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:17:14 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) Message-ID: I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning... I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I really couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is right, Commodores are step to mainframes ...) Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and he sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM. Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is in their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate anywhere. But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better than nothing I thought. After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big iron, no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service in dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It have stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk packs was left probably just where they are 30 years ago. Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0 System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, terminals, card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system! Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet that easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you want". :D So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always wanted, own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the trick as well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like below 200 at 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is totally unlikely you could find anything this good at Finland these days. ************** But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light those "little" bit. I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ? I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sat Mar 21 01:46:09 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?B?SsO2cmcgSG9wcGU=?=) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:46:09 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches Message-ID: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Hi all, Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic program listings. These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing SimH). I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of 53545 document pages. Almost all of them should be new stuff. The PDFs are ready for download now. Until they appear at bitsavers.org, you can use my link: ftp://u58104846-pub:open4you at ftp.j-hoppe.de (Note the embedded user/password strings) The scans come in two versions: "high quality" and "black&white": The HQ version is gray level and contains a true image of the micro fiches, after non-destructive contrast enhancement. It is the base for further image processing. Download path is ./fichescanner/hq/gh The BW version is compressed to black & white and aggressively optimized for size and letter quality. File sizes are 20x smaller than the HQ version. Its intended for daily use and OCR, but for some very problematic fiches textual information is lost. Download path is ./fichescanner/bw/gh And there is a background article on http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches describing the self-build automatic micro fiche scanner (video!) Enjoy! Joerg From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Sat Mar 21 03:56:15 2015 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:56:15 +0000 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550D322F.3040706@ljw.me.uk> Well done Johannes! I guess you have the Physical Planning manual from Bitsavers. 907kg seems a bit much - but maybe if it's fully optioned. Yes, power supplies are heavy, frames are heavy, motors are heavy. If they got it up there it must be possible to get it out! From my time dismantling and reassembling the Model 30 I would say it's not designed to be dismantled on-site. It can be done, of course, and I suggest copious photographs before the during the process. I stripped the CPU down to a bare frame, but maybe you don't need to go that far. It will be in manageable sub-units, but they're likely to be solidly wired together rather than with convenient connectors. All the best, and I'm sure Mike Ross will chime in soon: http://www.corestore.org/1800-2.htm for some of his photos of the innards. Lawrence On 21/03/15 08:17, Johannes Thelen wrote: > I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning... > > > > But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light those "little" bit. > > I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ? > > I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) > > Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks! > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)7841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 03:57:21 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 03:57:21 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, it sounds like you really "petted the puppy", eh? Now you own it, and it will never leave you.. ;-) In any case, good for you! I only wish I had the kind of space a man would really need to devote to this kind of materiel. Best of luck, my friend! On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 3:17 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > > I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning... > > I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I > really couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is > right, Commodores are step to mainframes ...) > > Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers > anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which > he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and > he sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM. > > Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I > called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After > some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is > in their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate > anywhere. But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but > better than nothing I thought. > > After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that > time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big > iron, no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was > stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service > in dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It > have stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped > that room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 > disk packs was left probably just where they are 30 years ago. > > Here's pic: > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W-NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0 > > System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive > adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, > terminals, card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system! > > Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could > make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet > that easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you > want". :D > > So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always > wanted, own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the > trick as well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like > below 200 at 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is > totally unlikely you could find anything this good at Finland these days. > > ************** > > But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only > (wide) staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly > disassemble to light those "little" bit. > > I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get > it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I > know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these > units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead > poured to structure ;) ? > > I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some > good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) > > Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks! > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 04:08:21 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 09:08:21 -0000 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <030601d063b6$94a89be0$bdf9d3a0$@gmail.com> 1) As its in-place might have been easier to negotiate rent on location, but probably too much money for one person. 2) I wonder if it went in through a window. It was common practice to take a window out and crane the pallets in. 3) If it's a "museum" does any of the documentation remain. There would usually have been a set of Customer Engineer hardware manuals in a wheeled trolley. I used to have a photo of these but I can't find it now.. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes > Thelen > Sent: 21 March 2015 08:17 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > > I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning... > > I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I really > couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is right, > Commodores are step to mainframes ...) > > Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers > anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which > he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and he > sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM. > > Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I > called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After > some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM is in > their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate anywhere. > But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better than > nothing I thought. > > After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that > time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big iron, > no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was > stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service in > dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It have > stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that > room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk packs > was left probably just where they are 30 years ago. > > Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0 > > System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive > adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, terminals, > card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system! > > Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could > make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet that > easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you want". :D > > So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always wanted, > own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the trick as > well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like below 200 at > 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is totally unlikely you > could find anything this good at Finland these days. > > ************** > > But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only (wide) > staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to light > those "little" bit. > > I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get > it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know > what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these > units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead > poured to structure ;) ? > > I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some > good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) > > Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks! > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 05:03:22 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:03:22 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches In-Reply-To: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: Fantastic! You have done a great work! I found the listing for the DGKAB 11/04 trap test that I have been looking for. /Mattis 2015-03-21 7:46 GMT+01:00 J?rg Hoppe : > Hi all, > > Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic program > listings. > These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing SimH). > I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of 53545 document > pages. > Almost all of them should be new stuff. > > The PDFs are ready for download now. > Until they appear at bitsavers.org, you can use my link: > ftp://u58104846-pub:open4you at ftp.j-hoppe.de > (Note the embedded user/password strings) > > The scans come in two versions: "high quality" and "black&white": > > The HQ version is gray level and contains a true image of the micro > fiches, after non-destructive contrast enhancement. It is the base for > further image processing. > Download path is ./fichescanner/hq/gh > > The BW version is compressed to black & white and aggressively optimized > for size and letter quality. File sizes are 20x smaller than the HQ > version. Its intended for daily use and OCR, but for some very problematic > fiches textual information is lost. > Download path is ./fichescanner/bw/gh > > And there is a background article on > http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches > describing the self-build automatic micro fiche scanner (video!) > > Enjoy! > > Joerg > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 21 05:35:43 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 03:35:43 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches Message-ID: <20150321033543.393341c3@asrock.bcwi.net> Joerg, On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:46:09 +0100 J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi all, > > Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic > program listings. > These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing > SimH). I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of > 53545 document pages. > Almost all of them should be new stuff. --snip-- Great job. A serious "labor of love". Thanks a LOT! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 21 06:00:53 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:00:53 +0000 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <030601d063b6$94a89be0$bdf9d3a0$@gmail.com> References: <030601d063b6$94a89be0$bdf9d3a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <550D4F65.5030005@btinternet.com> Wow!! Where would you put someting that big? Document docunment document! draw plans of how it is now and photograph every thing in situ. On 21/03/2015 09:08, Dave G4UGM wrote: > 1) As its in-place might have been easier to negotiate rent on location, but > probably too much money for one person. > > 2) I wonder if it went in through a window. It was common practice to take a > window out and crane the pallets in. > > 3) If it's a "museum" does any of the documentation remain. There would > usually have been a set of Customer Engineer hardware manuals in a wheeled > trolley. I used to have a photo of these but I can't find it now.. > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johannes >> Thelen >> Sent: 21 March 2015 08:17 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> >> >> I hope this is not too long story, but I'd like to start from beginning... >> >> I was selling and donating my 80's computer collection away, because I > really >> couldn't get anymore kicks of home computers (gateaway theory is right, >> Commodores are step to mainframes ...) >> >> Anyways, I asked every buyer have they seen any thing big, old computers >> anywhere here in Finland. One guy gave hint of some truck sized IBM, which >> he had seen at his old job. He told it is probably going to scrap yard and > he >> sent photo of it. I was stunned, FULL 1800 SYSTEM. >> >> Next step was find boss who decide what is going to happen that IBM. I >> called him and asked how's IBM. Firstly he thought I'm gold digger. After >> some talk, he became convinced I'm real deal. Sadly, he told me that IBM > is in >> their private museum, and not for sale or not planned to donate anywhere. >> But he invited me to see that IBM. I was little dissapointed, but better > than >> nothing I thought. >> >> After couple months, I went to there to see IBM. Boss had changed at that >> time, there was new guy. He also understand historical value of that big > iron, >> no doubt it. We drove plant where that IBM was. When I see it, I was >> stunned. It was absolute spectacular! It was stood 30 years after service > in >> dry and warm warehouse, same place where it installed early 70's. It have >> stood still almost long as I have wander this world! Time was stopped that >> room, it looks like we have got back to 80's on time machine. 2311 disk > packs >> was left probably just where they are 30 years ago. >> >> Here's pic: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_DR111cK6W- >> NnRINlhESk5aNUk&authuser=0 >> >> System contains 1801 CPU, 1803 additional core storage unit, 2841 drive >> adapter, couple 2311 hard drives, 1826 data adapter, 1443 printer, > terminals, >> card readers/punches, etc... It is giant system! >> >> Now comes twist to plot, this new boss suddenly asked: "When you could >> make pickup for this IBM?". I'm not that type guy, who can get be quiet > that >> easy, but I could just stutter something like "I can pickup every you > want". :D >> So, I was so excited, own IBM 1800, that is just what I have always > wanted, >> own mainframe :D (...360 would be even better but this would do the trick > as >> well ;) We have not that much computers back 60's or 70's. like below 200 > at >> 1970. So you can imagine how rare big iron is here and it is totally > unlikely you >> could find anything this good at Finland these days. >> >> ************** >> >> But now comes the problem. This IBM is in second floor. There is only > (wide) >> staircase down to street level. So cabinets have to partly disassemble to > light >> those "little" bit. >> >> I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get >> it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I > know >> what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these >> units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead >> poured to structure ;) ? >> >> I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some >> good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) >> >> Also any help to bring this back to life is welcome! Thaaaaaanks! >> >> >> - Johannes ThelenFinland >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 21 07:28:36 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 08:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches Message-ID: <20150321122836.78DBC18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: J?rg Hoppe > Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic > program listings ... I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a > total of 53545 document pages. Wow! That is a fantastic job, and I'm sure they will be incredibly useful to the community. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Noel From roeapeterson at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 07:32:15 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 06:32:15 -0600 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BD099F7-417A-4A42-B99D-80977AEB49BF@gmail.com> > > I would need some kind of document of wireharness and schematics, so I get it back together. Also good pictures inside of cabinets would help, so I know what is waiting me there. And by the way, what weights so much these units? CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ? There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack, no joke. > > From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Mar 21 08:55:09 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:55:09 +0000 Subject: Wheels turning slowly ... but arriving at the right location In-Reply-To: References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: <2786B2EF-0867-4749-AA5C-4FC5E765DB19@swri.edu> All, Berkeley has gotten around to honoring one of its most deserving alumnae: http://alumni.berkeley.edu/announcements/caa-announcements/caa-announces-2015-alumnus-year-steve-wozniak-bs-86-and-other-alumni Congratulations are definitely due and then some. - Mark From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 21 09:23:42 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) Message-ID: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Roe Peterson > There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out. Noel From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 10:04:24 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 10:04:24 -0500 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: <0CD3B64A454A468585B501608FFEF4A2@workshop> References: <0CD3B64A454A468585B501608FFEF4A2@workshop> Message-ID: <550D8878.3060103@gmail.com> On 03/21/2015 01:00 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > A classic case of Mac SE leaking electrolytic caps. Does anyone know why Apple machines of that era (including GSes and even late IIe machines) seem to have a reputation for this? I've never seen it in systems from other manufacturers - obviously there are cases of caps going high-ESR or with bulging (and sometimes even split) tops, but I've never seen one puke its guts all over the PCB. None of my Apple hardware seems to be affected (or at least, wasn't the last time I had cases open), but I hear enough reports of it that it seems to be quite common. If it was a problem with a specific machine I'd think it was a design issue - heat build-up, maybe, or working at close to voltage limit, but it seems to hit several different products. My guess is that Apple just used a particular supplier that few other makers did, and those caps happen to be prone to age-related failure? cheers Jules From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 11:30:10 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:30:10 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550D9C92.5070806@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 03:17 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ? > > These cabinets are built of HEAVY gauge steel, with a lot of heavy steel framework inside. They intentionally built them heavy to withstand rough shipping. The cabinets should separate fairly easily, just mark the locations where cables plug into backplanes, etc. Tape up all dangling cables. My guess is that the individual cabinets won't be all that heavy, a couple beefy guys should be able to work it down the stairs safely, but it will be a rough, sweaty job. Yes, if this has a 50 Hz linear supply, the power supply WILL be very heavy. It may be possible to remove the power transformer to lighten that cabinet. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 11:35:39 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:35:39 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550D322F.3040706@ljw.me.uk> References: <550D322F.3040706@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <550D9DDB.20305@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 03:56 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Well done Johannes! > > I guess you have the Physical Planning manual from > Bitsavers. 907kg seems a bit much - but maybe if it's > fully optioned. Yes, power supplies are heavy, frames are > heavy, motors are heavy. > > If they got it up there it must be possible to get it out! > From my time dismantling and reassembling the Model 30 I > would say it's not designed to be dismantled on-site. YOU'RE the guy who put the 360/30 on a 2nd floor office! My hat's off to you! Incredible story, I have it archived on my computer. Actually, I think the 1800 is quite modular, each cabinet will separate pretty cleanly, with a couple cables and some bolts. These won't be light, but a LOT lighter and more manageable than even a 360/30. I'm pretty sure a few guys could get this down a flight of stairs one cabinet at a time without great difficulty. > It can be done, of course, and I suggest copious > photographs before the during the process. I stripped the > CPU down to a bare frame, but maybe you don't need to go > that far. It will be in manageable sub-units, but they're > likely to be solidly wired together rather than with > convenient connectors. > No, as I say, it was quite modular. (Not an 1800 expert, but I know just a little about that system.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 11:38:51 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:38:51 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Roe Peterson > > > There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack > > I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are > so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out. > > Noel > Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but removed when shipping the unit.) Jon From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 12:02:20 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:02:20 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all!By the way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of the firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still here. I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how they react when they hear this :DTrucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends who have with that kind of equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or dig hole on the wall, also I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my place and IBM is several hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it makes turn another way in half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs. I could rent stair crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck.At (metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight ton. Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what there is bottom of rack?And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have to make frequency converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere.So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before loading goods to truck (when you remember still where parts were).I have plenty of room for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part of it for old computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get original simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual project: to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive).Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this kind of project not sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be harmed any old computer at that performance ;) - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:38:51 -0500 > From: elson at pico-systems.com > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Roe Peterson > > > > > There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack > > > > I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are > > so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out. > > > > Noel > > > Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges > or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might > have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached > to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out > for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but > removed when shipping the unit.) > > Jon From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 12:06:21 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:06:21 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all! By the way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of the firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still here. I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how they react when they hear this :D Trucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends who have with that kind of equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or dig hole on the wall, also I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my place and IBM is several hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it makes turn another way in half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs. I could rent stair crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck. At (metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight ton. Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what there is bottom of rack? And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have to make frequency converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere. So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before loading goods to truck (when you remember still where parts were). I have plenty of room for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part of it for old computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get original simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual project: to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive). Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this kind of project not sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be harmed any old computer at that performance ;) - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:02:20 +0200 > > > I answer to all in this post, because there came so much replies! Thanks for all!By the way, this IBM is very important to Finnish computer culture, because this is one of the firsts what here is used process control. Guys who program this back then, are still here. I'll contact original programmers soon as I get this back to power, lets see how they react when they hear this :DTrucks, forklifts, etc. is not problem, I have lot of friends who have with that kind of equipment. Problem is they can't allow to remove windows or dig hole on the wall, also I have very limited time to do the job andndistance between my place and IBM is several hundreds of kilometers. That staircase have another problem, it makes turn another way in half way, so there is hard to use winch at last part of stairs. I could rent stair crawler, but those not can't carry more than normal hand truck.At (metal) machine builder view, hollow rhs beams and some transformers can't weight ton. Also if look gate array hinges, they are not for hundred kilos weights. At parts list can't be seen any part number for weights, maybe weights at OEM manual are absolute maximum weights. Center of gravity is quite high, so there could some weights at bottom of rack, but why those are not listed parts manual? Can someone who have 1800 check what there is bottom of rack?And yes, this is for 50Hz grid (luckily, otherwise I should have to make frequency converter...), I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere.So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. Quick assembly before loading goods to truck (when you remember still where parts were).I have plenty of room for machines and I'm making new warehouse where I sacralize part of it for old computers. I can reveal little bit my plans for this IBM, it probably get original simulation of its purpose, plant management, but before that I have real unusual project: to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive).Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one... I hope this kind of project not sound totally sacrilege :D ...but I promise there is not going to be harmed any old computer at that performance ;) > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:38:51 -0500 > > From: elson at pico-systems.com > > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > > > On 03/21/2015 09:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > From: Roe Peterson > > > > > > > There are very likely lead bars in the bottom rear of the rack > > > > > > I recall finding one in some machine (don't remember what, now); they are > > > so the thing won't fall over when something is extended/swung out. > > > > > > Noel > > > > > Yes, machines that had tape drives that swung out on hinges > > or big removable pack hard drives on chassis slides might > > have this. The PDP-11/45 had outriggers that were attached > > to the front of the rack before you could roll the CPU out > > for maintenance. (Generally left permanently in place, but > > removed when shipping the unit.) > > > > Jon > From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 12:12:37 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 18:12:37 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550DA685.7050606@gmail.com> Wonderful!!! :) Andrea From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 12:42:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:42:43 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <550DAD93.7020000@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 03:17 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > CPU weights 907kg, why? Is power supplies so heavy or is there lead poured to structure ;) ? > > I'm picking this up next week, at least small items, so I would need some good advices also. Rolling cabinets via stair case is not option ;) > > Note the CPU needs 3-phase power, and a lot of it. Just the CPU is supposed to be 3 KW, although that power input may feed a number of other units. I can't believe the 907 kg weight, it just DOES NOT make sense! Looking at some detailed pictures of the system with the doors open, I'd easily believe 200 or maybe even 250 kg for the CPU alone. It does have 50-Hz transformer power supplies, so that would make it heavier than the 360's with their converter-inverter and 2500 Hz transformer supplies. But, 3 KW worth of 50 Hz transformer is not going to weigh a TON! So, I'm really suspicious of that figure in the manual. I can easily believe that whole system does weigh a ton, however. Well, I watched ONE GUY push a 360/65 CPU cabinet up a ramp. He was a BIG guy, but there's no way that thing weighs almost 2 tons. So, something is way wrong with ALL these weights. I can't figure out why they do this, however. Maybe they were hysterically afraid idiots would under-specify the raised floors, so they put a HUGE safety margin in there. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 13:25:39 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:25:39 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 12:02 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere. A quick look at the FE manual seems to indicate it uses a bunch of "medium power converters" which seem to be modular transformer/rectifier/regulator type supplies. I think these are made to pull out fairly easily as field replaceable units, so that might get the weight down. I also looked in some 360 docs and they had wildly different weights listed for the same box in different configurations. This makes me think these are NOT weights of individual cabinets but total system weights in different configurations. Clearly, the machine in your picture is a larger configuration with a number of cabinets added to the CPU box. > So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. I'd be very careful about removing "gates". There will be a LOT!!! of wires, and the wire-wrap side of the boards are pretty fragile. (This is an SLT machine, build much the same as a 360, so I know a fair bit about how those are put together. The gates are not going to be very heavy, it may be much better to leave them in place. The disks are probably ruined from dust accumulation, and these disk drives likely have metal (not ceramic) heads, and will require a lot of work to get running again. I think these use the same scheme as the 2314, with hydraulic head positioners. They will almost certainly have to be rebuilt completely. I'd clean the tops of the drives carefully before opening the lids, and try to be very careful to not get any more dirt in there when removing the packs. it may be a fool's errand to try to get the 2311 drives to ever work again, possibly a fairly simple device could be built that emulates the signals. The 2311 and 2314 "protocol" is extremely simple. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 21 13:39:07 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:39:07 -0700 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DAD93.7020000@pico-systems.com> References: <550DAD93.7020000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DBACB.3060108@sydex.com> I remember running into a fellow who got his 1130 programming experience through an education program by Standard Oil of Indiana offering access to their 1800 system to participating high school students. Such behavior would scare the pants off of any corporate IT security VP nowadays. Did any company offer a similar program employing the 1710? --Chuck From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 13:47:41 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:47:41 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Thanks Jon for tips! No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I think use ultrasonic or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle cleaning methods. I like to dump core and all disc packs for future uses ( = make original configuration). I noticed too there is wire warppibgs at back, but can assemble gate arrays back to their places after stair case, so those are not rolling all around in truck. I agree, I can't see why CPU would weight almost ton. - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:25:39 -0500 > From: elson at pico-systems.com > To: General at classiccmp.org; classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > On 03/21/2015 12:02 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > > I supposed there is some big 380/220VAC transformer somewhere. > A quick look at the FE manual seems to indicate it uses a > bunch of "medium power converters" > which seem to be modular transformer/rectifier/regulator > type supplies. I think these are made > to pull out fairly easily as field replaceable units, so > that might get the weight down. > > I also looked in some 360 docs and they had wildly different > weights listed for the same box in different > configurations. This makes me think these are NOT weights > of individual cabinets but total system weights in different > configurations. > Clearly, the machine in your picture is a larger > configuration with a number of cabinets added to the CPU box. > > So, my only plan is now to get small items first, make better plan how to disassemble cabinets. Of course I have to label everything and take photos, but I'm sure something could (and surely) forgot... Disassembly is not that bad, power sources out, gate arrays can be removed releasing connectors and hinges. > I'd be very careful about removing "gates". There will be a > LOT!!! of wires, and the wire-wrap side of the boards are > pretty fragile. (This is an SLT machine, build much the same > as a 360, so I know a fair bit about how those are put > together. The gates are not going to be very heavy, it may > be much better to leave them in place. > > The disks are probably ruined from dust accumulation, and > these disk drives likely have metal (not ceramic) heads, and > will require a lot of work to get running again. I think > these use the same scheme as the 2314, with hydraulic head > positioners. They will almost certainly have to be rebuilt > completely. I'd clean the tops of the drives carefully > before opening the lids, and try to be very careful to not > get any more dirt in there when removing the packs. > > it may be a fool's errand to try to get the 2311 drives to > ever work again, possibly a fairly simple device could be > built that emulates the signals. The 2311 and 2314 > "protocol" is extremely simple. > > Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 14:25:12 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:25:12 -0600 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: <550D8878.3060103@gmail.com> References: <0CD3B64A454A468585B501608FFEF4A2@workshop> <550D8878.3060103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 9:04 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know why Apple machines of that era (including GSes and even > late IIe machines) seem to have a reputation for this? I've never seen it in > systems from other manufacturers - obviously there are cases of caps going > high-ESR or with bulging (and sometimes even split) tops, but I've never > seen one puke its guts all over the PCB. In the Apple II series, I've only seen the X2 and Y2 safety-rated capacitors in the power supply fail, which can be somewhat spectacular, and that happens in non-Apple equipment of that age as well. I think that's just expected as the capacitor gets way beyond its expected operating life. For the Macintosh, Plus, SE, etc., the electrolytics, and pretty much all of the other components of the analog board are subject to heat substantially beyond their rated specifications. Mr. Jobs insisted on having no fan, and only vent holes, and it is inadequate. > My guess is that Apple just used a particular supplier that few other makers did, and those caps happen to be prone to age-related failure? I don't think so. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 14:39:33 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:39:33 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > Thanks Jon for tips! > > No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I think use ultrasonic or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle cleaning methods. You have to be very careful with anything that requires temperature extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the hydraulic head positioner? If the oxide coating of the packs has deteriorated, which I think is quite possible, then the disks will not be usable. Anybody else have experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago? The other problem is this machine uses SLT. That was never a super-reliable technology. They start with 1/2" square ceramic substrates, and fire thin film resistors onto them, then print and fire thick film wiring. Then they use bump-bonded discrete transistors and diodes, and solder these by bump bonds to the wiring, and add leads. Then, because the transistors and diodes are not well-passivated, they smear silicone goop over it and epoxy on the die-drawn aluminum covers. These are not totally hermetic, and oxygen gets inside and slowly deteriorates the semiconductor devices. They also had some problems with the solder joints to them developing cracks. So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after FORTY years of storage is pretty small. There are, of course, no replacements for SLT modules, as IBM stopped making them in the late 1960's! It was a form of diode-transistor logic, and not terribly dense. A single flip-flop would not fit in one SLT module, it took at least 2, and the usual scheme was to integrate some steering gates with it and ended up with about 4 modules to implement the typical register bit. They didn't use what we think of today as a FF, they used D latches, as it was simpler to implement, but required several clock phases. One clock phase to latch input data to the ALU, wait for the ALU to settle, then a pulse to latch the result out of the ALU. > I like to dump core and all disc packs for future uses ( = make original configuration). I wouldn't worry about what is left in core, it would be interesting, but you might have to do a lot of testing and repair before enough of the machine is working to read it out. Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a scratch on the heads, you will not be able to replace them. Also, if anything at all happens to the heads, you will need an alignment pack to realign any replaced heads. Do you have ANY experience with old-school mainframe equipment? If you think you will just dust this thing off, mount the disk packs and fire it up, you are quite crazy! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 14:50:14 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 14:50:14 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! (The following comes from my knowledge of the 2314, but it is likely to be similar.) These had a Cessna hydraulic pump belt-driven by the same belt that turned the spindle. Short hoses connected it to a big tank at the back. This acted as the fluid reservoir as well a a housing for the servo valve and the linear actuator. It is very likely the seals on the pump, valve and actuator have deteriorated, and the hoses are cracked and brittle. If you were to fire it up, the hoses might blow, and spray oil all over the inside of the drive. This has happened at the two installations I was at, while under IBM maintenance in the early 1970's. It caused a lot of damage. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 21 14:52:30 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 12:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DAD93.7020000@pico-systems.com> References: <550DAD93.7020000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I can't believe the 907 kg weight, it just DOES NOT make sense! It makes perfect sense, when you consider that the original spec was NOT metric. If somebody said, "It weighs a ton! (figuratively), OR it was something between 1000 pounds and 3000 pounds, and ROUNDED to "a ton", then automated unit conversion, or some idiot that doesn't understand the error of adding significant digits to a less significant number, . . . results in 907 Kg I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that it weighed 907.18 Kg. So, figure 1000 Kg, plus or minus 400 From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Sat Mar 21 05:00:11 2015 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (fritz_chwolka@web.de) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:00:11 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches In-Reply-To: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: <550D412B.7000304@web.de> Am 21.03.2015 um 07:46 schrieb J?rg Hoppe: > Hi all, > > Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic > program listings. > These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing SimH). > I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of 53545 > document pages. > Almost all of them should be new stuff. > > The PDFs are ready for download now. > Until they appear at bitsavers.org, you can use my link: > ftp://u58104846-pub:open4you at ftp.j-hoppe.de > (Note the embedded user/password strings) > > The scans come in two versions: "high quality" and "black&white": > > The HQ version is gray level and contains a true image of the micro > fiches, after non-destructive contrast enhancement. It is the base for > further image processing. > Download path is ./fichescanner/hq/gh > > The BW version is compressed to black & white and aggressively > optimized for size and letter quality. File sizes are 20x smaller than > the HQ version. Its intended for daily use and OCR, but for some very > problematic fiches textual information is lost. > Download path is ./fichescanner/bw/gh > > And there is a background article on > http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches > describing the self-build automatic micro fiche scanner (video!) > > Enjoy! > > Joerg > Danke daf?r.. From j_hoppe at t-online.de Sat Mar 21 05:18:54 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?B?SsO2cmcgSG9wcGU=?=) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 11:18:54 +0100 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches In-Reply-To: References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: <550D458E.7070002@t-online.de> Yeah ... this one was meant for you ;-) joerg Am 21.03.2015 um 11:03 schrieb Mattis Lind: > Fantastic! You have done a great work! > > I found the listing for the DGKAB 11/04 trap test that I have been looking > for. > > /Mattis > > 2015-03-21 7:46 GMT+01:00 J?rg Hoppe : > >> Hi all, >> >> Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic program >> listings. >> These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing SimH). >> I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of 53545 document >> pages. >> Almost all of them should be new stuff. >> >> The PDFs are ready for download now. >> Until they appear at bitsavers.org, you can use my link: >> ftp://u58104846-pub:open4you at ftp.j-hoppe.de >> (Note the embedded user/password strings) >> >> The scans come in two versions: "high quality" and "black&white": >> >> The HQ version is gray level and contains a true image of the micro >> fiches, after non-destructive contrast enhancement. It is the base for >> further image processing. >> Download path is ./fichescanner/hq/gh >> >> The BW version is compressed to black & white and aggressively optimized >> for size and letter quality. File sizes are 20x smaller than the HQ >> version. Its intended for daily use and OCR, but for some very problematic >> fiches textual information is lost. >> Download path is ./fichescanner/bw/gh >> >> And there is a background article on >> http://retrocmp.com/projects/scanning-micro-fiches >> describing the self-build automatic micro fiche scanner (video!) >> >> Enjoy! >> >> Joerg >> >> > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 21 05:29:04 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 03:29:04 -0700 Subject: DEC PDP-11: 330 XXDP listings scanned from micro fiches In-Reply-To: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> Joerg, On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 07:46:09 +0100 J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi all, > > Over the last months I scanned micro fiches with XXDP diagnostic > program listings. > These listings are essential for repairing PDP-11's (or enhancing > SimH). I digitized 330 listings from 452 fiches, with a total of > 53545 document pages. > Almost all of them should be new stuff. --snip-- Great job. A serious "labor of love". Thanks a LOT! Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Mar 21 12:27:22 2015 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 13:27:22 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED References: Message-ID: <90F20EAB16FF45AB9D6F5CA8AA1A0CD0@OptiplexGX620> Still looking? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; ; "Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED > Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system I > had running. > > HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. > > I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) > > I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll > just > have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA SCSI > card .... > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG From cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Mar 21 14:58:10 2015 From: cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:58:10 +0000 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DCD52.9050206@ljw.me.uk> On 21/03/15 19:39, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: >> Thanks Jon for tips! >> >> No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back to life ;) I >> think use ultrasonic or carbon ice cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. >> Both are quire gentle cleaning methods. > You have to be very careful with anything that requires temperature > extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the hydraulic head > positioner? If the oxide coating of the packs has deteriorated, which > I think is quite possible, then the disks will not be usable. Anybody > else have experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago? Yes, hydraulic actuator. Assuming it hasn't run for a long time then flushing and replacing the hydraulic fluid would be necessary. > > The other problem is this machine uses SLT. That was never a > super-reliable technology. They start with 1/2" square ceramic > substrates, and fire thin film resistors onto them, then print and > fire thick film wiring. Then they use bump-bonded discrete > transistors and diodes, and solder these by bump bonds to the wiring, > and add leads. Then, because the transistors and diodes are not > well-passivated, they smear silicone goop over it and epoxy on the > die-drawn aluminum covers. These are not totally hermetic, and oxygen > gets inside and slowly deteriorates the semiconductor devices. They > also had some problems with the solder joints to them developing cracks. The plus side is that you can pretty well replace a module with a few transistors/diodes/resistors, if you have the manual that shows you what is inside each one. Also, the same SLT card will be used in many places so it's easy to swap them around. For the Model 30 there was a manual that showed where each card was used, which facilitated this swapping. Of course there were odd cards that only appeared once or twice. > > So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after FORTY years of > storage is pretty small. There are, of course, no replacements for > SLT modules, as IBM stopped making them in the late 1960's! It was a > form of diode-transistor logic, and not terribly dense. A single > flip-flop would not fit in one SLT module, it took at least 2, and the > usual scheme was to integrate some steering gates with it and ended up > with about 4 modules to implement the typical register bit. They > didn't use what we think of today as a FF, they used D latches, as it > was simpler to implement, but required several clock phases. One > clock phase to latch input data to the ALU, wait for the ALU to > settle, then a pulse to latch the result out of the ALU. The power supplies would be the first thing to work on - they'll be switchers and have the potential to make a very large bang. >> I like to dump core and all disc packs for future uses ( = make >> original configuration). > I wouldn't worry about what is left in core, it would be interesting, > but you might have to do a lot of testing and repair before enough of > the machine is working to read it out. > > Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a scratch on > the heads, you will not be able to replace them. Also, if anything at > all happens to the heads, you will need an alignment pack to realign > any replaced heads. Do you have ANY experience with old-school > mainframe equipment? If you think you will just dust this thing off, > mount the disk packs and fire it up, you are quite crazy! I got away with it, but the Model 30 was only 10 (or fewer) years out of service. By defeating interlocks it's probably possible to get a 2311 to spin up without a pack and have it load the heads (with something soft between them!) to check head loading and cylinder actuation. I'm not sure what diagnostic facilities exist for the 1800, but the 2841 controller had microcode routines to manually test drives. > > Jon > Lawrence -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From philip at neoncluster.com Sat Mar 21 16:20:38 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 10:20:38 +1300 Subject: Looking for PSS RAM65 S100 Manual Message-ID: Hi all, I have a Problem Solver Systems (PSS) RAM65 card that I would like to get working in my IMSAI 8080, but I can not find any manuals for it online. Does anyone on the list have a manual they could possibly scan for me. Much thanks in advance. Philip From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 21 17:15:03 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 15:15:03 -0700 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and drives. IBM had to air freight in an entire subsystem to replace it. The datacenter was down for about a week. Main system was a 360/50 MVT / HASP system FWIW. This 1800 would be a great system to preserve and eventually restore. I agree with Jon, hard to tell how to actually run these disks now days. (BTW, Jon and I are from UMR) thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 17:21:59 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:21:59 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DCD52.9050206@ljw.me.uk> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCD52.9050206@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <550DEF07.5010604@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 02:58 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On 21/03/15 19:39, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 03/21/2015 01:47 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: >>> Thanks Jon for tips! >>> >>> No, that is not option, I mean 2311 is have to get back >>> to life ;) I think use ultrasonic or carbon ice >>> cleaning for 2311 and disk packs. Both are quire gentle >>> cleaning methods. >> You have to be very careful with anything that requires >> temperature extremes. Can anybody verify the 2311 uses >> the hydraulic head positioner? If the oxide coating of >> the packs has deteriorated, which I think is quite >> possible, then the disks will not be usable. Anybody else >> have experience with 14" disk packs from 40" years ago? > Yes, hydraulic actuator. Assuming it hasn't run for a long > time then flushing and replacing the hydraulic fluid would > be necessary. I think it is going to need more tender loving care that that! It is now over 40 year old. Seals and hoses will have dried out and become brittle. >> >> > The plus side is that you can pretty well replace a module > with a few transistors/diodes/resistors, if you have the > manual that shows you what is inside each one. Also, the > same SLT card will be used in many places so it's easy to > swap them around. For the Model 30 there was a manual that > showed where each card was used, which facilitated this > swapping. Of course there were odd cards that only > appeared once or twice. Yes, this is true, and I was pretty amazed at your ability to fix the 360/30 you had. But, time has been continuously taking its toll. On the other hand, I was amazed to see on Wikipedia that 4 1800's were still running in 2010. There were no SLT parts available after sometime around 1980, and IBM was supposed to get as much stuff back so they could support the FAA's 9020 computers, which were slightly modified 360/50's and /65's. I'm pretty amazed they could keep those 1800's running for an additional 30 years. Maybe they were a lot more reliable than I thought, from my 360 experience. >> >> So, the likelihood of the CPU actually working after >> FORTY years of storage is pretty small. There are, of >> course, no replacements for SLT modules, as IBM stopped >> making them in the late 1960's! It was a form of >> diode-transistor logic, and not terribly dense. A single >> flip-flop would not fit in one SLT module, it took at >> least 2, and the usual scheme was to integrate some >> steering gates with it and ended up with about 4 modules >> to implement the typical register bit. They didn't use >> what we think of today as a FF, they used D latches, as >> it was simpler to implement, but required several clock >> phases. One clock phase to latch input data to the ALU, >> wait for the ALU to settle, then a pulse to latch the >> result out of the ALU. > The power supplies would be the first thing to work on - > they'll be switchers and have the potential to make a very > large bang. I don't know. The power system in the 360's was different. They used a "converter-inverter" that changed mains power to DC, than inverted it to single-phase 120 V, 2500 Hz sine wave. This was fed to remarkably small linear transformer/rectifier/regulator modules. The downfall of this was there was little energy storage for momentary line fluctuations, so any tiny blip on the mains caused a system crash. The 1800 may have been designed differently to work in a known-bad power environment. it seems to have some quite large bulk supplies of relatively low power output, each. There is a mention in the FE manual about making sure the machine has the right 50 Hz or 60 Hz transformers. I believe the 360s only needed to have one card swapped in the converter-inverter to set up the SCR preregulator timing for the right frequency. So, anyway, it is not clear the power supplies are of the switching type. but, in any case, they need to be checked before power is applied, or the filter caps could pop. >>> I like to dump core and all disc packs for future uses >>> ( = make original configuration). >> I wouldn't worry about what is left in core, it would be >> interesting, but you might have to do a lot of testing >> and repair before enough of the machine is working to >> read it out. >> >> Be very careful with the disk drives. If you even get a >> scratch on the heads, you will not be able to replace >> them. Also, if anything at all happens to the heads, you >> will need an alignment pack to realign any replaced >> heads. Do you have ANY experience with old-school >> mainframe equipment? If you think you will just dust >> this thing off, mount the disk packs and fire it up, you >> are quite crazy! > I got away with it, but the Model 30 was only 10 (or > fewer) years out of service. By defeating interlocks it's > probably possible to get a 2311 to spin up without a pack > and have it load the heads (with something soft between > them!) to check head loading and cylinder actuation. I'm > not sure what diagnostic facilities exist for the 1800, > but the 2841 controller had microcode routines to manually > test drives. Yup, I think you were VERY lucky, too! It was not hard to make a big mess with the old 14" disk drives, the heads were very easy to scratch. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 21 18:29:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tek 1200 series GPIB interface available Message-ID: <20150321232955.717F518C0F4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I acquited (with a Tek 1240 I recently got) a 1200C02 GPIB Comm Pack, which I have no use for. Dunno if it works or not. Looking for a good home for it - shipping plus whatever donation the receiver feels is appropriate. Noel From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 18:53:48 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 19:53:48 -0400 Subject: IBM 5100 Restoration in progress In-Reply-To: References: <014a01d05e15$0230a150$0691e3f0$@net> <009d01d05f53$fa0d14f0$ee273ed0$@net> Message-ID: Quick update. I tried with/without the terminator and no difference. I also checked the "bus in" lines with a logic probe on the rear A2 connector and they were all high with no pulsing. I'm going to try to break out the scope tomorrow and see if there's any pulsing in them as I start the computer. Santo On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > First off, thank you for disassembling the 5100 Executable ROS. > > I just saw the link to your website and I can say I lived there for a > while. I first saw this 5100 for sale back in April 2014 and I agreed to > buy from the seller at that time, During that time I looked for any > information I could find on the 5100 and read every word of your site. It > didn't make much sense to me because you have to experience the true > hardware first but I appreciated it anyway. It took me just under a year > of patience to get the seller to complete the deal (I think he was worried > about shipping to another country) but it's here now so thank you for your > site. If I can get mine to work, maybe I can help make a 5100 version of > your emulator :) > > Early on I tried with the terminator but my I/O cable driver card had > severely rusted ICs. I will try again with the terminator and see if there > is a difference. > > I am writing this down for what I am going to check when I get home: > > 1. Check with terminator > > 2: Check bus lines as indicated in the IBM 5100 Maintenance manual > > Page 3-14: > > *Halt code: A* > *Test: Turns all bus in bits on* > *Area tested: A2*, F2, G2, H2* > *Service Aids: Probe the 'bus in' lines on the F2 card. All bus in bits > should be up or pulsing.* > > Note: F2 = Base I/O board (525 - 528) > > > Page 5-22 to 5-25 = Base I/O card F2 logic and wiring > > Page 5-24 bottom has references to Bus In lines but I wouldn't know where > to begin probing them. > > Your site mentions the A2 connector which is referred to on page 5-15 at > the bottom. I can check that. > > Thank you once again and if you can post the full disassembly, I would > appreciate that. If I am able to get past this, I'm fairly certain I won' > t be sailing through the rest of the tests. > > Santo > > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 5:37 AM, Christian Corti < > cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > >> On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Santo Nucifora wrote: >> >>> Screenshot is here: >>> http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/exeros-5100.jpg >>> >> >> Ok, here we go: >> >> 0000 0004 DW 0004 ; R0L0 >> 0002 0000 DW 0000 ; R1L0 >> >> ; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ; Clear memory from $0008 to $01FF >> >> 0004 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices >> 0006 8200 LBI R2, #$00 >> 0008 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 >> 000A 0324 MOVE R3, R2 >> 000C 8308 LBI R3, #$08 ; R3 <- $0008 >> 000E 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 >> 0010 8402 LBI R4, #$02 >> 0012 C347 SBSH R3, R4 >> 0014 F007 BRA $000E ; Loop >> >> ; R3 contains now $0200 >> >> ; Size installed memory in increments of 16 kbytes >> ; The last usable memory location will be in R8 >> >> ; Check if memory at $4000 is present >> >> 0016 8840 LBI R8, #$40 >> 0018 088D MLH R8, R8 >> 001A 8800 LBI R8, #$00 ; R8 <- $4000 >> 001C 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 ; ($4000) <- $00 >> 001E 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- >> 0020 C10C SNS R1 ; >> 0022 A01B BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump >> >> ; Check if memory at $8000 is present >> >> 0024 8880 LBI R8, #$80 >> 0026 088D MLH R8, R8 >> 0028 8800 LBI R8, #$00 >> 002A 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 >> 002C 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- >> 002E C10C SNS R1 >> 0030 A00D BRA $0040 ; no memory here, jump >> >> ; Check if memory at $C000 is present >> >> 0032 88C0 LBI R8, #$C0 >> 0034 088D MLH R8, R8 >> 0036 8800 LBI R8, #$00 >> 0038 7888 MOVB (R8), R8 >> 003A 6184 MOVB R1, (R8)- >> 003C C104 SS R1 ; no memory here, skip >> 003E 088D MLH R8, R8 ; last location is $FFFF >> >> 0040 C804 SS R8 >> 0042 0000 HALT ; error, low byte not $FF >> >> 0044 10F0 CTRL $0, #$F0 >> 0046 1FFF CTRL $F, #$FF ; Reset all devices >> >> 0048 0532 INC R5, R3 ; R5 <- $0201 >> >> 004A 83AA LBI R3, #$AA >> 004C 033D MLH R3, R3 ; R3 <- $AAAA >> >> 004E 8420 LBI R4, #$20 >> >> 0050 8705 LBI R7, #$05 >> 0052 077D MLH R7, R7 >> 0054 87FF LBI R7, #$FF ; R7 <- $05FF >> >> 0056 8104 LBI R1, #$04 >> 0058 011D MLH R1, R1 >> 005A 8136 LBI R1, #$36 ; R1 <- $0436 >> 005C 0203 INC2 R2, R0 >> 005E 0014 RET R1 ; call $0436 >> >> ; Clear memory from R9L0 to end of display >> >> 0060 8200 LBI R2, #$00 >> 0062 022D MLH R2, R2 ; R2 <- $0000 >> 0064 0324 MOVE R3, R2 >> 0066 8312 LBI R3, #$12 ; R3 <- $0012 >> 0068 8406 LBI R4, #$06 >> 006A 5231 MOVE (R3)+, R2 >> 006C C347 SBSH R3, R4 >> 006E F005 BRA $006A ; loop >> >> 0070 381D MOVE $3A, R8 ; last memory location to >> R13L1 >> >> ; Put 0000, 1111, 2222, ... into locations >> $0080-00BF >> ; This is an aid to locate the registers in >> display >> ; register mode >> 0072 87C0 LBI R7, #$C0 >> 0074 0894 MOVE R8, R9 >> 0076 8880 LBI R8, #$80 ; R8 <- $0080 >> 0078 5981 MOVE (R8)+, R9 >> 007A C90C SNS R9 >> 007C 89EF LBI R9, #$EF >> 007E A910 ADD R9, #$11 >> 0080 099D MLH R9, R9 >> 0082 C872 SE R8, R7 >> 0084 F00D BRA $0078 ; -> -$0E(R0) >> >> ; --- Test A --- >> ; Bus In bit test >> >> 0086 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'A' to $0201 >> 0088 8FFF LBI R15, #$FF >> 008A 00FE GETB R15, $0 >> 008C CF04 SS R15 >> 008E 0000 HALT >> >> ; --- Test B --- >> ; Op Code test >> >> 0090 7550 MOVB (R5)+, R5 ; write 'B' to $0202 >> 0092 351C MOVE $38, R5 ; save R5 to R12L1 >> 0094 A003 BRA $009A >> >> 0096 81FF LBI R1, #$FF >> 0098 311F MOVE $3E, R1 >> >> 009A 8101 LBI R1, #$01 >> [...] >> >> >> So everything looks perfect, except that test 'A' fails. R15 should >> contain $00FF after the 'GETB R15, $0', but instead it contains $0005. Now, >> that's many bits stuck at zero... (the Bus In lines are active high). >> Is there any difference in the value if you run the machine with >> terminator (directly attached to the computer) and without terminator? >> Are all power cables correctly seated? Somehow I have the impression that >> the internal terminator or pullups on the Bus In lines don't work as they >> should. Or the input receivers (whatever they are) are toast for 6 out of 8 >> lines. >> According to the 5100 MIM page C-9, a GETB with address 0 is not used, so >> should read $FF. Hmm, another thought: Maybe there's an addressing error, >> and instead of addressing device 0, it addresses e.g. device 1. You should >> definitely also check the DA (device address) lines. >> >> Christian >> > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 20:08:48 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 02:08:48 +0100 Subject: A challenge from the Spectrum BASIC manual is finally achieved Message-ID: 30 years after it was set by Dr Stephen Vickers. An orchestra of a dozen -- networked! -- original ZX Spectrum computers plays Mahler's 1st symphony. A rather lovely 10min film: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxPXLIALJJI -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:08:37 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:08:37 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > to get this to Assembly computer fair's demo competition at Helsinki, so energy drink addicted CS player's some real iron running realtime vector graphics :D (...it should be possible what I have calculated, at least streaming points from hard drive).Of course I need some kind of vector display (there is probably Tektronics vector terminals, but those are not suitable for realtime graphics), so if anyone spare 2250, please info (I'm sure there is no one ;) otherwise I have to make one.. I do not think many 1800s had vector displays using a 2250, but there was an option for a raster display using a piece of crap black and white TV (although I am not sure how well that would work in PAL/SECAM land). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:11:53 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:11:53 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550D9C92.5070806@pico-systems.com> References: <550D9C92.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > My guess is that the individual cabinets won't be all that heavy, a > couple beefy guys should be able to work it down the stairs safely, but it > will be a rough, sweaty job. I doubt that - 1800s are built to the S/360 specs. 907 kg for a two rack system sounds reasonable. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:15:27 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:15:27 -0400 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: <550D8878.3060103@gmail.com> References: <0CD3B64A454A468585B501608FFEF4A2@workshop> <550D8878.3060103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/21/2015 01:00 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> A classic case of Mac SE leaking electrolytic caps. > > Does anyone know why Apple machines of that era (including GSes and even > late IIe machines) seem to have a reputation for this? I've never seen it in > systems from other manufacturers I have a dead Amiga 4000 with leaky caps on the CPU board :-( http://amiga.serveftp.net/A3640_capacitor.html -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:20:28 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:20:28 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Can anybody verify the 2311 uses the hydraulic head positioner? Yes, 2311 is hydraulic. 2311s, apart from the head of string, are also almost completely empty, and could be moved down a stair by one guy with a two-wheeler. > There are, of course, no replacements for SLT modules, as > IBM stopped making them in the late 1960's! Most SLT is remarkably easy to find. I think there has been a steady stream of SLT cards on EBay continuously for the past ten years! Fairly complete data for the standard SLT system has also been available for some time. The only SLT that would probably be a bear to find is the high speed grade. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 21:27:55 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:27:55 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh yeah - SEND MORE PICS. I have a complete? set of FE microfiche for an 1800, and if Al wants it, he ought to speak up. I think they contain the ALDs and maintenance stuff, but I am not sure. I do not have the ALDs in paper form, I know that. -- Will From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 21 22:09:47 2015 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 20:09:47 -0700 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <550D9C92.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550E327B.4090003@sbcglobal.net> On 3/21/2015 7:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> My guess is that the individual cabinets won't be all that heavy, a >> couple beefy guys should be able to work it down the stairs safely, but it >> will be a rough, sweaty job. > I doubt that - 1800s are built to the S/360 specs. 907 kg for a two > rack system sounds reasonable. > > -- > Will > My 1800 had to be around a ton. I moved it using a small lift gate truck that had a 2000 pound rated lift. It could not lift it. I had to use a jack and blocks to help it up into the truck. It was hard to even roll it around the floor with two people. I have many SLT card spares for mine, probably a few thousand or so. I don't think they are very hard to find. Al scanned all of my paper docs awhile back. I believe the ALD's were part of that. I can check to see what I have if needed, I still have all of the paper. Bob -- Dentopedalogy is the science of opening your mouth and putting your foot in it. I've been practising it for years. -Prince Philip From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 21 22:23:27 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 22:23:27 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > > On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! > The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was > hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into > the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that > major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators > exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all > the packs and drives. > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded. I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. Jon From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 21 23:02:08 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2015 23:02:08 -0500 Subject: VCF Southeast 3.0 - Call for exhibitors! Message-ID: The Atlanta Historical Computing Society and the Computer Museum of America has been planning a great celebration of the 50th birthday of the PDP-8, 40th of the Altair 8800, and 30th of the Amiga 1000 in Roswel, GA, for the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 3.0. However, we need your help in exhibiting! Last year, we had about 400 people through the doors between two days. We'd love for you to sign up and bring your hardware to show off to the Atlanta community. I'll be there with dueling PDP-8s (/E and /M) playing chess, as well as taking turns playing Spacewar! on age-appropriate hardware. I'll also show off my emulated version based around SimH. And that's just at my table! Steve Lafferty has summed up (quite nicely) the signup process for those who have not done it before. Check it out! http://tronola.com/html/vcfse3_exhibitor_info.html Here's the link on vintage.org as well: http://www.vintage.org/2015/southeast/ If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. Kyle Owen Member, AHCS From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Mar 22 12:53:04 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <, > <, > <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <, > <, > <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> >> >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and drives. >> > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded. > I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might give that technique a try. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 22 14:25:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 15:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fix for sticky buttons on Tek 1240/41 logic analyzers Message-ID: <20150322192530.2A9FF18C0F7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So one of my Tek 1240s had incredibly sticky buttons on the front panel (basically, _all_ of them would stick, and have to be pried out manually). I had _very_ good results with the following very simple procedure (which is _not_ in the service manual :-) to totally cure the problem. Your results may differ, since the problem may have different causes in other cases; in mine, there was lot of fine dust in the keyboard area, and it apparently had gotten into the button mechanism, which has a lot of sliding parts with tight tolerances. i) Remove the keyboard PCB: the Service Manual, Volume I (available online) explains how to get the keyboard out - roll up the logic cage, and then you can undo 4 small bolts, after which the keyboard just comes off. You will also need to remove two flat cables. Next, remove the scroll button (usual hex set screw holds it on the shaft), and then separate the cover from the actual keyboard PCB by removing the four hex stand-off posts. ii) Take the button assembly out of the PCB; it's just a press-fit, not glued - just push on it from the solder side of the PCB (may need a fair amount of force). The buttons consist of precisely 5 parts: the keytop, which comes off/on easily (I usually remove them, but you could probably leave them on), the housing, the shaft/actuator, a spring, and a gold-plated copper contact bar (which connects two gold-plated contacts on the PCB, to form the switch). iii) Immerse the button assembly in water, and _while immersed_, push the shaft/actuator back and forth a number of times. If it's totally binding, and won't come out at all, use a small object of some kind down the cylindrical shaft to get it to go back and forth. If there is an air bubble trapped in the cylindrical shaft, make sure to clear it - that shaft is one of the places dirt can get and bind things up. Pretty soon it should operate completely freely. iv) Needless to say, dry thoroughly before replacing... :-) In theory one could take the button assembly apart to clean it, but I'd be _really_ worried I'd damage the contact, or something. I just left it all together and dunked it in water, and that worked wonderfully. For the 5 LED buttons, it's basically the same. The LEDs are _not_ glued into the button assemblies, just inserted into the cylindrical shaft. _Carefully_ remove the LED from the shaft, and bend it back out of the way. Then proceed as above. Hope someone finds this useful! It's tedious, doing all 30 or so keys, but it works well. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 22 17:50:20 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 17:50:20 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <, > <, > <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <, > <, > <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <550F472C.6010404@pico-systems.com> On 03/22/2015 12:53 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might give that technique a try. > You had to be VERY careful, and use the correct solvent to not harm the magnetic coating. As long as the pack was not mounted when this happened, the heads and pack could be laboriously cleaned. if the pack was mounted, it would cause a huge disaster, burning the disk and heads. Jon From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 22 18:15:53 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 16:15:53 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 Message-ID: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >From what I've been able to find, it was 50 years ago today that the PDP-8 was officially launched. So Happy Birthday to a machine that had such significant influence on so many of us. And a big Thank You to all those who helped to create it. In recognition of this anniversary, the PDP-8/M restoration I'm doing (on S/N 07082) reached the stage today where I connected a terminal and was able to push characters in and out of it. Even as I type this, it's running the print test program from the maintenance manual printing ASCII characters on a terminal. Happy PDP-8 Day, everyone! BLS From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 03:27:15 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 03:27:15 -0500 Subject: Two New Alternate-Version Scans Message-ID: I've scanned and uploaded different versions of two manuals that already exist on Bitsavers. They are the HP RTE-6/VM Quick Reference Guide and the Intel MCS-48 User's Manual. Those interested in completeness or tracking historical changes may be interested. You can find them here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Intel Enjoy... -j From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 09:49:48 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:49:48 +0100 Subject: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 Message-ID: http://www.righto.com/2015/03/12-minute-mandelbrot-fractals-on-50.html?m=1 -- Sent from my phone - please pardon brevity & typos. From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Mar 23 10:09:08 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:09:08 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I bought my Straight 8 a birthday present about a week ago. A Tektronix RM503 scope to attach to the 34D. Eventually I will get spacewars running. Happy Birthday to all the other surviving 8's out there! Doug -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 23 10:23:59 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:23:59 -0600 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5510300F.3050206@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/23/2015 9:09 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I bought my Straight 8 a birthday present about a week ago. A Tektronix > RM503 scope to attach to the 34D. Eventually I will get spacewars running. > > Happy Birthday to all the other surviving 8's out there! > > Doug > PDP:8 > I wanted few more friends like a HIGH SPEED punch and Reader. PDP:8 > That DEC tape sure would look nice with me. PDP:8 > When do I get off this LRT and get to home? PDP:8 > Darn Cake! I wanted more memory From mspproductions at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 10:59:14 2015 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:59:14 -0400 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <81585935-D4A2-4740-9BD9-B62F9429A18C@gmail.com> It was fun firing up a PDP-8e at my buddy's, the system had an RK-05j and we used a VT-240 terminal. I was amazed how fat OS/8 loaded and works. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 22, 2015, at 7:15 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > From what I've been able to find, it was 50 years ago today > that the PDP-8 was officially launched. So Happy Birthday > to a machine that had such significant influence on so many > of us. And a big Thank You to all those who helped to create > it. > > In recognition of this anniversary, the PDP-8/M restoration > I'm doing (on S/N 07082) reached the stage today where I > connected a terminal and was able to push characters in and > out of it. Even as I type this, it's running the print test program > from the maintenance manual printing ASCII characters on > a terminal. > > Happy PDP-8 Day, everyone! > > BLS > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 23 11:58:32 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 16:58:32 +0000 Subject: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55104638.2050400@btinternet.com> Its not that the computer is amazing it is. But a computer museum with a working system is a big surprise. Normally they display gutless hulks and leave everything else to rot in storage. On 23/03/2015 14:49, Liam Proven wrote: > http://www.righto.com/2015/03/12-minute-mandelbrot-fractals-on-50.html?m=1 > From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Mon Mar 23 10:46:39 2015 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:46:39 -0400 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes Message-ID: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> I've been recovering old data from computers that I used many years ago, the last effort was trying to recover the data from a hard disk that ran a WFW 3.11 system. The problem was the disk could not be read on a modern computer, so I recreated an old system and (very lucky for me) ftp'd the data off the system after I found an ISA network card. I have a couple of 4mm and 8mm tapes that contain data I want to recover. The 4mm is DDS-1 and was written using tar on a SGI system in 1998. My questions are; 'What modern DAT tape drive will read this tape? How backward compatible is this technology?' This seems like an easy problem and intend to use a linux system to read the tape. The 8mm tapes were also written on an SGI system, however it was in 1994 and the IRIX Backup utility was used. IRIX 5 was probably used. Any ideas? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 23 11:12:56 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:12:56 -0700 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> Message-ID: <542c3d6717314643e01d59c3c21a09df@aracnet.com> My experience is that if you can find an Exabyte EXB-8500, you can probably read that 8mm, newer drives may also work just fine (it's been enough years, I forget just how new of drives we've been able to read 8mm tapes of that vintage on. What's likely to be difficult though is the 4mm tape. The 4mm DDS tapes are probably proprietary to the drive model, and potentially to the drive they were written in (if the heads were out of alignment). I hate trying to recover 4mm data. Was it written using a SGI branded drive? If so that would make things easier. Actually if it was written a drive that was relatively new in 1998 it might be easier, buy then things were fairly standardized. No clue on the Linux/IRIX question, but I would imagine Google can help you there, as that seems like a common enough problem. Zane On 2015-03-23 08:46, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I've been recovering old data from computers that I used many years > ago, the last effort was trying to recover the data from a hard disk > that ran a WFW 3.11 system. The problem was the disk could not be > read on a modern computer, so I recreated an old system and (very > lucky for me) ftp'd the data off the system after I found an ISA > network card. > > I have a couple of 4mm and 8mm tapes that contain data I want to > recover. The 4mm is DDS-1 and was written using tar on a SGI system > in 1998. My questions are; > > 'What modern DAT tape drive will read this tape? How backward > compatible is this technology?' > > This seems like an easy problem and intend to use a linux system to > read the tape. > > The 8mm tapes were also written on an SGI system, however it was in > 1994 and the IRIX Backup utility was used. IRIX 5 was probably used. > Any ideas? From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 11:17:42 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:17:42 -0400 Subject: Re. Happy Birthday, PDP-8 Message-ID: It had a significant impact onsome of us. I remember in my high school electronics class in '67 seeing/watching the teacher use/ demonstrate it. I was hooked om computing ever since. Happy birthday indeed if it's appropriate to wish an non-entity such! Happy computing, Murray :) From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Mar 23 11:21:48 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:21:48 +0100 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Taylor" To: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 4:46 PM Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes > I have a couple of 4mm and 8mm tapes that contain data I want to recover. > The 4mm is DDS-1 and was written using tar on a SGI system in 1998. My > questions are; > > 'What modern DAT tape drive will read this tape? How backward compatible > is this technology?' > > The 8mm tapes were also written on an SGI system, however it was in 1994 > and the IRIX Backup utility was used. IRIX 5 was probably used. Any > ideas? DDS-1 can normally be read on DDS-2, in my experience. I seem to remember that Sony and HP DDS drives of that generation are not totally interchangeable, especially for the compression routines. But I might confuse it with some other system. Are the 8 mm tapes Exabyte format? Exabyte drives are normally 1 or 2 versions upwards compatible, so you can read 8200 tapes on 8500 drives, but probably not on Eliant drives, etc. I have now idea on how IRIX handled the backup. /Nico From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 23 11:56:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 09:56:31 -0700 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> Message-ID: <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> On 03/23/2015 08:46 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I have a couple of 4mm and 8mm tapes that contain data I want to > recover. The 4mm is DDS-1 and was written using tar on a SGI system in > 1998. My questions are; > > 'What modern DAT tape drive will read this tape? How backward > compatible is this technology?' Depends largely on the manufacturer. For example, a QuantumA DDS-4 drive should be backward-compatible. For other brands, check the manufacturer's specification. > This seems like an easy problem and intend to use a linux system to read > the tape. Frankly, it's probably better to use the same software to restore the tapes that wrote them than trying to suss out the results of a plain dump. The 8mm tapes were also written on an SGI system, however it was in 1994 > and the IRIX Backup utility was used. IRIX 5 was probably used. Any > ideas? Exabyte 8mm tapes, like DDS tapes, were pretty good in conforming to SCSI tape standards, so they should work just tine, provided that you have the right drive. For 1994, an 8700 should do the job. Of course, you'll have to deal with the block size issue if these are not Unix-native, but that's been discussed before here. --Chuck From spedraja at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 12:36:04 2015 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:36:04 +0100 Subject: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 In-Reply-To: <55104638.2050400@btinternet.com> References: <55104638.2050400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Awesome. I'm impressed. Regards Sergio. El lunes, 23 de marzo de 2015, Rod Smallwood escribi?: > Its not that the computer is amazing it is. But a computer museum with a > working system is a big surprise. > Normally they display gutless hulks and leave everything else to rot in > storage. > > > > > On 23/03/2015 14:49, Liam Proven wrote: > >> http://www.righto.com/2015/03/12-minute-mandelbrot-fractals- >> on-50.html?m=1 >> >> > -- Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations ? -- *Sergio Pedraja* -- mobile: +34-699-996568 twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja -- http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405 http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja http://spedraja.wordpress.com https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo From rickb at bensene.com Mon Mar 23 13:36:51 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 11:36:51 -0700 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 In-Reply-To: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: To celebrate the PDP8-'s birthday, Sunday I fired up the PDP 8/e system with two RK05's, RX01 (Dual), PC8E/PC05 Paper Tape, EAE, 32K, and 2 Serial Ports with SerialDisk running on one of them, and did a complete set of MAINDEC diagnostics on it just to make sure all was well. Took quite a while to get through them all, but they all passed with no problems. The system was built in 1972, and so it's 42+ years old, and I am continuously amazed at how well and robustly these machines were designed. DIdn't even have to boot OS/8, it was still in core. But, just to check, I did boot it off of RK05 using the SW switch (diode Boot ROM board), and it booted up in just over 1 second. Those were the days. I fired up CHEKMO (Chess) and set the machine playing against itself for a while - a good CPU exercise. I then ran ADVENT (Adventure) and played around in it for a bit, which is a good test of Disk I/O and CPU. Also fired up BASIC and loaded a few of the vintage game programs (STRTRK among them), and before shutting it down (it was starting to get late), I did a test compile of a pretty good-sized old Fortran program -- that definitely exercises the disks quite vigorously. It ls always amazing how much mass the RK05's push around to move the heads. The rack definitely shakes from both drives thrashing the heads around. It sure brought back a lot of memories of the summer job I had between Junior and Senior year of High School where I wrote some high speed floating point math routines for PDP 8/e with EAE. Happy Birthday, PDP-8! -Rick Bensene From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 13:58:48 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 13:58:48 -0500 Subject: Happy Birthday, PDP-8 In-Reply-To: References: <1427066153.82478.YahooMailBasic@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a great system. Congrats. ADVENT would sure be a great test of my cpu and memory, but I think I would fail. I wish I was I was in that great shape when I hit 42, which was many years ago.... On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 1:36 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > To celebrate the PDP8-'s birthday, Sunday I fired up the PDP 8/e system > with two RK05's, RX01 (Dual), PC8E/PC05 Paper Tape, EAE, 32K, and 2 > Serial Ports with SerialDisk running on one of them, and did a complete > set of MAINDEC diagnostics on it just to make sure all was well. Took > quite a while to get through them all, but they all passed with no > problems. > > The system was built in 1972, and so it's 42+ years old, and I am > continuously amazed at how well and robustly these machines were > designed. DIdn't even have to boot OS/8, it was still in core. But, > just to check, I did boot it off of RK05 using the SW switch (diode Boot > ROM board), and it booted up in just over 1 second. Those were the > days. > > I fired up CHEKMO (Chess) and set the machine playing against itself for > a while - a good CPU exercise. I then ran ADVENT (Adventure) and played > around in it for a bit, which is a good test of Disk I/O and CPU. Also > fired up BASIC and loaded a few of the vintage game programs (STRTRK > among them), and before shutting it down (it was starting to get late), > I did a test compile of a pretty good-sized old Fortran program -- that > definitely exercises the disks quite vigorously. It ls always amazing > how much mass the RK05's push around to move the heads. The rack > definitely shakes from both drives thrashing the heads around. > > It sure brought back a lot of memories of the summer job I had between > Junior and Senior year of High School where I wrote some high speed > floating point math routines for PDP 8/e with EAE. > > Happy Birthday, PDP-8! > > -Rick Bensene > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 23 14:02:00 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 15:02:00 -0400 Subject: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 In-Reply-To: <55104638.2050400@btinternet.com> References: <55104638.2050400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <539BD0C4-8446-400B-8052-21F1E9ACB5E6@comcast.net> > On Mar 23, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Its not that the computer is amazing it is. But a computer museum with a working system is a big surprise. > Normally they display gutless hulks and leave everything else to rot in storage. Depends on the museum. In this case, it?s a bit surprising, indeed. But the Living Computer Museum in Seattle specifically sets out to have all their machines in working condition. (Right now they are restoring a CDC 6500, for example.) paul From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Mar 23 14:08:38 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:08:38 +0000 Subject: Wheels turning slowly ... but arriving at the right location In-Reply-To: <2786B2EF-0867-4749-AA5C-4FC5E765DB19@swri.edu> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <2786B2EF-0867-4749-AA5C-4FC5E765DB19@swri.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DC7F8B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Tapley, Mark Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 6:55 AM > Berkeley has gotten around to honoring one of its most deserving alumnae: > http://alumni.berkeley.edu/announcements/caa-announcements/caa-announces-2015-alumnus-year-steve-wozniak-bs-86-and-other-alumni The biographical sketch is too short to judge. What else can you tell us about Ms. Matsuoka? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From roeapeterson at gmail.com Mon Mar 23 20:38:52 2015 From: roeapeterson at gmail.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 19:38:52 -0600 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> Actually, with DDS tapes, you can generally write one gen back and read two. So, a DDS3 drive can read DDS1 and write DDS2. > On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:56 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 03/23/2015 08:46 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote: >> >> I have a couple of 4mm and 8mm tapes that contain data I want to >> recover. The 4mm is DDS-1 and was written using tar on a SGI system in >> 1998. My questions are; >> >> 'What modern DAT tape drive will read this tape? How backward >> compatible is this technology?' > > Depends largely on the manufacturer. For example, a QuantumA DDS-4 drive should be backward-compatible. For other brands, check the manufacturer's specification. > >> This seems like an easy problem and intend to use a linux system to read >> the tape. > > Frankly, it's probably better to use the same software to restore the tapes that wrote them than trying to suss out the results of a plain dump. > > The 8mm tapes were also written on an SGI system, however it was in 1994 >> and the IRIX Backup utility was used. IRIX 5 was probably used. Any >> ideas? > > Exabyte 8mm tapes, like DDS tapes, were pretty good in conforming to SCSI tape standards, so they should work just tine, provided that you have the right drive. For 1994, an 8700 should do the job. > > Of course, you'll have to deal with the block size issue if these are not Unix-native, but that's been discussed before here. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 23 22:53:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:53:58 -0700 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> On 03/23/2015 06:38 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Actually, with DDS tapes, you can generally write one gen back and read two. So, a DDS3 drive can read DDS1 and write DDS2. It really depends. Not all HP DDS3 drives will read DDS1--or so HP claims. So, it's still best to check beforehand. Or do what I do--keep a mess of DDS drives of as many kinds as you need. Nowadays, nobody wants the older ones much, so they can be had fairly inexpensively. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Mar 23 22:59:07 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 20:59:07 -0700 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3655fc741ec4ae922aa0c01422aa5862@aracnet.com> On 2015-03-23 20:53, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/23/2015 06:38 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > Actually, with DDS tapes, you can generally write one gen back and read > two. So, a DDS3 drive can read DDS1 and write DDS2. > > It really depends. Not all HP DDS3 drives will read DDS1--or so HP > claims. > > So, it's still best to check beforehand. Or do what I do--keep a mess > of DDS drives of as many kinds as you need. Nowadays, nobody wants > the older ones much, so they can be had fairly inexpensively. Not every DDS1 drive can read every DDS1 tape. Not every DDS1 tape can be read in a different specimen of the same model drive as which it was written in. I liked 4mm DDS1 tapes for installing software on my PDP-11, but that's about it. Zane From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 03:30:06 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 02:30:06 -0600 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: <3655fc741ec4ae922aa0c01422aa5862@aracnet.com> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> <3655fc741ec4ae922aa0c01422aa5862@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:59 PM, wrote: > Not every DDS1 drive can read every DDS1 tape. Not every DDS1 tape can be > read in a different specimen of the same model drive as which it was written > in. I'm not disputing your statement in general, but I've apparently had better results with DDS interchange than you have. I've used six DDS1 drives from four vendors and three DDS2 drives from two vendors, and didn't have any interchange problems until one of the DDS1 drives somehow became seriously misaligned. I believe this must have been the result of physical trauma causing damage affecting the relative positions of the head drum and the tape on the vertical axis (along the width of the tape), or at least with a signifcant component on that axis, because the track following servo should otherwise be able to compensate for a fair bit of mechanical variation between drives. When the DAT and DDS formats were designed, it was intended that they be robust enough for good interoperation between drives without need for any manual alignment of individual drives. Eric From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 24 03:32:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 08:32:26 -0000 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes In-Reply-To: References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> <3655fc741ec4ae922aa0c01422aa5862@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <1b9601d0660d$0f7f66c0$2e7e3440$@gmail.com> I read somewhere that manufacturers implemented compression and the schemes were incompatible between drive makers. Perhaps this has caused issues for some.. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 24 March 2015 08:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 9:59 PM, wrote: > > Not every DDS1 drive can read every DDS1 tape. Not every DDS1 tape > > can be read in a different specimen of the same model drive as which > > it was written in. > > I'm not disputing your statement in general, but I've apparently had better > results with DDS interchange than you have. I've used six DDS1 drives from > four vendors and three DDS2 drives from two vendors, and didn't have any > interchange problems until one of the DDS1 drives somehow became > seriously misaligned. I believe this must have been the result of physical > trauma causing damage affecting the relative positions of the head drum and > the tape on the vertical axis (along the width of the tape), or at least with a > signifcant component on that axis, because the track following servo should > otherwise be able to compensate for a fair bit of mechanical variation > between drives. > When the DAT and DDS formats were designed, it was intended that they be > robust enough for good interoperation between drives without need for any > manual alignment of individual drives. > > Eric From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 24 12:32:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 10:32:21 -0700 Subject: Recovering data from 4mm and 8mm tapes/ftape advice In-Reply-To: <1b9601d0660d$0f7f66c0$2e7e3440$@gmail.com> References: <5510355F.80007@verizon.net> <551045BF.3090205@sydex.com> <7EF1907D-5B3E-46E1-B75B-F6848BA33632@gmail.com> <5510DFD6.1030308@sydex.com> <3655fc741ec4ae922aa0c01422aa5862@aracnet.com> <1b9601d0660d$0f7f66c0$2e7e3440$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55119FA5.6010502@sydex.com> On 03/24/2015 01:32 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I read somewhere that manufacturers implemented compression and the > schemes were incompatible between drive makers. Perhaps this has > caused issues for some.. I do recall, back in my dim memory, that when I was writing software for the DDS, DLT and 8mm drives, that I would turn off all of extra vendor features when creating tapes. There were some interesting differences in the DDS1 drives. And vendor-unique features differed considerably. Some drives, for example, allowed for read-after-write (i.e. rewriting of a block), but not all did. -------------------------- Speaking of tapes, and not wanting to hijack the thread, but does anyone here have experience with the Linux ftape (floppy tape) drivers? I'm about to install them on a Debian Woody setup and wonder if there's anything that I should be aware of. I *think* that Woody was the last distro before they were dropped altogether. --Chuck From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 11:47:42 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 09:47:42 -0700 Subject: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B1EF456-4DF1-4748-A7AA-6D0EA4E820B8@gmail.com> That is a highly impressive autocoder implementation, and the article is an entertaining, yet deep and accurate technical overview of what makes the 1401 so special from a computer engineering point of view. One of the best short technical piece I've ever seen on the 1401. If the two machines work at the same time, I will certainly try to run it on one while making shorter demos on the second! Marc Sent from my iPad > On Mar 24, 2015, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Re: Implementing the Mandelbrot set on an IBM 1401 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 25 15:19:15 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 15:19:15 -0500 Subject: Equipment Available Message-ID: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> This one is in the UK. I am not sure exactly where - waiting on further response from the owner. Description I initially received: ----- PDP11/23, Microvax with a number of boards and a Uni-bus adapter, Q U back plane plus some documentation. The RX01 drives passed away many years ago but the main board I think I still have. Unfortunately the power supply is dead, and should take swimming lessons in Maynard Mill pond. ----- I then received a followup email with the following info: ----- I {used to work at} a little company then called DEC. This was a single system used for silicon testing as there is an IEEE bus interface card. ----- So this is interesting in that it has a unibus adapter, and an IEEE bus interface card. And... may have actually been used within DEC (from what he says above)? Anyways, further information will not be available until after Easter (it's being dug out and verified for parts and descriptions). If you're in the UK and interested, please email me off-list. Best, J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 18:02:12 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 23:02:12 -0000 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> That sounds odd, is it an 11/23 or a MicroVax...... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 25 March 2015 20:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Equipment Available > > This one is in the UK. I am not sure exactly where - waiting on further > response from the owner. > > Description I initially received: > ----- > PDP11/23, Microvax with a number of boards and a Uni-bus adapter, Q U > back plane plus some documentation. > > The RX01 drives passed away many years ago but the main board I think I still > have. > > Unfortunately the power supply is dead, and should take swimming lessons > in Maynard Mill pond. > ----- > > > I then received a followup email with the following info: > ----- > I {used to work at} a little company then called DEC. > > This was a single system used for silicon testing as there is an IEEE bus > interface card. > ----- > > So this is interesting in that it has a unibus adapter, and an IEEE bus interface > card. And... may have actually been used within DEC (from what he says > above)? > > Anyways, further information will not be available until after Easter (it's being > dug out and verified for parts and descriptions). If you're in the UK and > interested, please email me off-list. > > Best, > > J > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 25 18:14:57 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 23:14:57 +0000 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. Unless it is *two* machines? On 25 March 2015 at 23:02, Dave G4UGM wrote: > That sounds odd, is it an 11/23 or a MicroVax...... > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay > West > > Sent: 25 March 2015 20:19 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Equipment Available > > > > This one is in the UK. I am not sure exactly where - waiting on further > > response from the owner. > > > > Description I initially received: > > ----- > > PDP11/23, Microvax with a number of boards and a Uni-bus adapter, Q U > > back plane plus some documentation. > > > > The RX01 drives passed away many years ago but the main board I think I > still > > have. > > > > Unfortunately the power supply is dead, and should take swimming lessons > > in Maynard Mill pond. > > ----- > > > > > > I then received a followup email with the following info: > > ----- > > I {used to work at} a little company then called DEC. > > > > This was a single system used for silicon testing as there is an IEEE bus > > interface card. > > ----- > > > > So this is interesting in that it has a unibus adapter, and an IEEE bus > interface > > card. And... may have actually been used within DEC (from what he says > > above)? > > > > Anyways, further information will not be available until after Easter > (it's being > > dug out and verified for parts and descriptions). If you're in the UK and > > interested, please email me off-list. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > > > > > > > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 18:51:16 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 23:51:16 -0000 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <021d01d06756$9679d6c0$c36d8440$@gmail.com> I wonder if he means LSI-11 rather than MicroVax.... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt > RMA > Sent: 25 March 2015 23:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equipment Available > > Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. Unless it is *two* > machines? > > On 25 March 2015 at 23:02, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > That sounds odd, is it an 11/23 or a MicroVax...... > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay > > West > > > Sent: 25 March 2015 20:19 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Equipment Available > > > > > > This one is in the UK. I am not sure exactly where - waiting on > > > further response from the owner. > > > > > > Description I initially received: > > > ----- > > > PDP11/23, Microvax with a number of boards and a Uni-bus adapter, Q > > > U back plane plus some documentation. > > > > > > The RX01 drives passed away many years ago but the main board I > > > think I > > still > > > have. > > > > > > Unfortunately the power supply is dead, and should take swimming > > > lessons in Maynard Mill pond. > > > ----- > > > > > > > > > I then received a followup email with the following info: > > > ----- > > > I {used to work at} a little company then called DEC. > > > > > > This was a single system used for silicon testing as there is an > > > IEEE bus interface card. > > > ----- > > > > > > So this is interesting in that it has a unibus adapter, and an IEEE > > > bus > > interface > > > card. And... may have actually been used within DEC (from what he > > > says above)? > > > > > > Anyways, further information will not be available until after > > > Easter > > (it's being > > > dug out and verified for parts and descriptions). If you're in the > > > UK and interested, please email me off-list. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > J > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 25 18:53:48 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 18:53:48 -0500 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> Jarratt wrote... ---- Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. Unless it is *two* machines? ---- Agreed, all I can do is type exactly what he emailed me. He said "11/23,microvax" but then in a subsequent email said it's a "single system". His last email said he would dig the equipment out of storage over easter and let me know exact pieces/parts. What he wrote is all I know, I just want to pass the deal on to someone so whatever it winds up being is preserved. Best, J From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 19:01:51 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 00:01:51 -0000 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <023701d06758$104b55e0$30e201a0$@gmail.com> Jay, Any idea of a location? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 25 March 2015 23:54 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Equipment Available > > > Jarratt wrote... > ---- > Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. Unless it is *two* > machines? > ---- > Agreed, all I can do is type exactly what he emailed me. He said > "11/23,microvax" but then in a subsequent email said it's a "single system". > > His last email said he would dig the equipment out of storage over easter and > let me know exact pieces/parts. > > What he wrote is all I know, I just want to pass the deal on to someone so > whatever it winds up being is preserved. > > Best, > > J > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 25 19:04:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 19:04:20 -0500 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <023701d06758$104b55e0$30e201a0$@gmail.com> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> <023701d06758$104b55e0$30e201a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000101d06758$68f8e770$3aeab650$@classiccmp.org> Dave wrote... ---- Jay, Any idea of a location? Dave ---- He said he was in the UK. I asked for nearest town, but haven't heard yet. J From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 25 19:46:43 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 20:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. [...] I offer for your collective consideration my guess that it's a case of someone mistaking the label on a panel for the device inside, and the system, whatever it is, has acquired mixed labeling. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 25 20:29:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 01:29:28 +0000 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <551360F8.7070108@btinternet.com> I don't think anybody who had worked for DEC would confuse an 11/23 with a microvax. The reference to RX01's also seems a little odd. Testing silicon could be a reference to IC's or the large crystals drawn from the melt. As to being used in house in the UK. Both plants (Ayr and Galway) were F,A and T plants Boards and enclosures came in already built and tested. They would plug the systems together to suit the customers configureation. If a board failed it would be sent to Hoofdorf in Holland where they had a board level repair facility. This was mainly for field service swop outs but they did handle F,A and T failures. Rod On 26/03/2015 00:46, Mouse wrote: >> Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. [...] > I offer for your collective consideration my guess that it's a case of > someone mistaking the label on a panel for the device inside, and the > system, whatever it is, has acquired mixed labeling. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 22:13:25 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 22:13:25 -0500 Subject: More Dilog and Emulex Message-ID: The UC171 was a quantity one and is gone. Others are gone, but I still have one or so left, plus a few goodies I'm just adding. Please contact me off list. Any qty $10 shipping within US. Paul DILOG DQ130 DQ686 Emulex CS09 SC01 SC03 TU11 TU121 QD01 QD21 QD241 QT131 From b4 at gewt.net Wed Mar 25 18:25:37 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 19:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: More Dilog and Emulex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Mar 2015, Paul Anderson wrote: > The UC171 was a quantity one and is gone. Others are gone, but I still have > one or so left, plus a few goodies I'm just adding. Please contact me off > list. Any qty $10 shipping within US. > > Paul > > DILOG > > DQ130 Pertec > DQ686 ESDI > > > Emulex > > CS09 Claiming, have the cabkit too? > > SC01 SMD > SC03 more SMD > TU11 > TU121 > > QD01 MFM, emulates KDA50. I'm claiming this > QD21 ESDI > QD241 > QT131 > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 25 23:17:12 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 23:17:12 -0500 Subject: DEC LCG MG boards available Message-ID: If you are interested, please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 00:41:57 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 00:41:57 -0500 Subject: More DEC compatables Message-ID: GTSC 304B DLV11-J? SIGMA 400310 MATROX ELECTRONICS SYS QRGB-G/64 MATROX 80 QRGB-256 SPECTRA LOGIC 15/25 ABLE (ACT) 10067 LOOKS LIKE QUINEVERTOR ABLE 10412 SAME Please contact me off list if you are interested. Thanks, Paul From dave at 661.org Thu Mar 26 02:13:12 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 07:13:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 03/20/2015 02:08 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Would that be the cause of a flicker in the crt? >>> >> >> To me, it sounds as if there's an arc going on in the FBT. But that's >> just from general knowledge--I have no experience with Mac SEs. >> > It's been a while, but as I said, those power connections can cause all > sorts of odd issues. Just carefully & completely re-flow them with some > SN63 material (if you have it, else SN60 will do) and know that it's one > issue you won't have to face. > > IIRC, one unit with that problem had flicker, static in the speaker and > also system instability. It was either an SE/30 or a Plus, I had several of > each model at the time. Now for capacitor choice: would it be better to use surface-mount tantalums or through-hole electrolytics surface-mounted? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 26 02:31:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 08:31:51 +0100 Subject: More DEC compatables In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20150326073151.GA24560@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:41:57AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > > MATROX ELECTRONICS SYS QRGB-G/64 > MATROX 80 QRGB-256 > Hi Paul I want this. Can you name your price? Regards, Pontus. From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 02:52:12 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 02:52:12 -0500 Subject: More DEC compatables In-Reply-To: <20150326073151.GA24560@Update.UU.SE> References: <20150326073151.GA24560@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: both of them? Fe el free to make an offer. Are you in Europe? On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 12:41:57AM -0500, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > MATROX ELECTRONICS SYS QRGB-G/64 > > MATROX 80 QRGB-256 > > > > Hi Paul > > I want this. Can you name your price? > > Regards, > Pontus. > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 03:01:33 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 03:01:33 -0500 Subject: More Dilog and Emulex In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have at least one more QD01 On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:13 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > The UC171 was a quantity one and is gone. Others are gone, but I still > have one or so left, plus a few goodies I'm just adding. Please contact me > off list. Any qty $10 shipping within US. > > Paul > > DILOG > > DQ130 > DQ686 > > > Emulex > > CS09 > > SC01 > SC03 > TU11 > TU121 > > QD01 > QD21 > QD241 > QT131 > From wilson at dbit.com Thu Mar 26 09:47:42 2015 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 10:47:42 -0400 Subject: Punchcard drawers Message-ID: <20150326144742.GA12637@dbit.dbit.com> By any chance does anyone have a line on the sets of metal drawers that were used to store decks of punchcards? I know someone who's looking for a bunch of them (ideally in/near New England, USA, but, whatever!). Thanks, John Wilson From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 26 15:05:13 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 20:05:13 +0000 Subject: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK Message-ID: I have a VAX 4000-300 that I want to pass on as I don't have room for it. It is in a BA440 enclosure (marked VAX 4000-400). The CPU board had a couple of problems, the levers that are used to push it into the slot have been broken, however it will push into the slot OK and work. The onboard Ethernet (SGEC) is also not working, but I have included a DESQA so you can network it. It has 64MB of memory (2x 32MB). It also has a CXY08 board. It does not have any disks because I want to keep the few DSSI disks I have, however I will include two DSSI covers. You can still boot it as a satellite of course. In fact I was toying with the idea of putting a Raspberry Pi inside the enclosure with a crossover LAN cable and running if off SIMH on that. It is free, however I would appreciate a small donation, as it has cost me money to collect it to save it from being dumped. It is in the UK, in South Manchester. Although I am currently working a lot in Coventry so could bring it to that area. I will also be at DEC Legacy in Windermere 11-12 April, although I would prefer to leave room in my car for the machines I want to exhibit, if possible. Regards Rob From philip at neoncluster.com Thu Mar 26 15:34:33 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:34:33 +1300 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card Message-ID: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> Hi all, I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. Much thanks for your time. Best regards Philip From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Mar 26 16:11:42 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:11:42 +1300 Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> Message-ID: >Now for capacitor choice: would it be better to use surface-mount tantalums or through-hole electrolytics surface-mounted? No doubt there are pros and cons, but I used electrolytics for Mac Classic II recap, and have some standing by for an SE/30 recap I'll be doing in the next month or so. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2014-05-24-Classic%20II%20capacitor%20replacement.htm Terry (Tez) From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 26 16:13:48 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 14:13:48 -0700 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: > Hi all, > I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. > > In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: > > 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. > 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. > > Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: > > - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. > - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) > - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off > > I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. > > Much thanks for your time. > > Best regards > > Philip I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. Thanks Jim From philip at neoncluster.com Thu Mar 26 16:19:40 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:19:40 +1300 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> Hi Jim, thanks for the info. Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. Cheers > On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > > > On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >> Hi all, >> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >> >> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >> >> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. >> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >> >> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: >> >> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. >> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) >> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off >> >> I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. >> >> Much thanks for your time. >> >> Best regards >> >> Philip > I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. > > Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. > > Thanks > Jim From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 16:32:11 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 17:32:11 -0400 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco 64KZ-II DRAM cards. m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card Hi Jim, thanks for the info. Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. Cheers > On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens > wrote: > > > > On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >> Hi all, >> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM >> card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In >> fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this >> system and have decided to start looking for a >> SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >> >> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >> >> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to >> be working. >> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >> >> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress >> on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d >> be looking for either: >> >> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards >> (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 >> would be preferred for sake of consistency, but >> obviously not crucial. >> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards >> (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) >> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k >> bank turned off >> >> I would love to hear from anyone with one of >> the above cards who would be willing to pass it >> on. >> >> Much thanks for your time. >> >> Best regards >> >> Philip > I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, > you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also > had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that > was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 > system. > > Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is > as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. > > Thanks > Jim From philip at neoncluster.com Thu Mar 26 17:30:17 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:30:17 +1300 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> Hi Mike, Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. Thanks for your thoughts > On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco 64KZ-II DRAM cards. > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" > To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM > Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card > > > Hi Jim, thanks for the info. > Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. > > Cheers > > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> >> >> >> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >>> >>> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >>> >>> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. >>> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >>> >>> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: >>> >>> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. >>> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) >>> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off >>> >>> I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. >>> >>> Much thanks for your time. >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Philip >> I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. >> >> Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 26 18:08:33 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 16:08:33 -0700 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <55149171.70904@jwsss.com> On 3/26/2015 3:30 PM, Philip Lord wrote: > Hi Mike, > Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. > > Thanks for your thoughts There is an Compupro / Godbout Econoram IV 16k board on fleabay right now, and I looked via the sellers link to a page on s100computers.com which has a summary of the Econoram boards. I think if you can find it, you would want a RAM16 or RAM17 board. I had a RAM16 in a system at one point and that single board fills a normal 8080 type S100 system's memory space. unless you are using a board such as the Northstar Disk controller(s) with memory space which is used for addressing, you can fill all of the memory. Other boards that consume memory space would be video controllers, or such as the Dazzler, or rom boards. The price of the Econoram IV puts you at 500 bucks for 64k, so that is not good, and you probably would be best served with 4 16K boards alike for various reasons. Sometimes they didn't play nice with each other if the brands were not the same. thanks Jim From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 18:41:11 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 19:41:11 -0400 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <5E4863C02FA34FA7B3C991E81233F4D7@310e2> Maybe you could adapt one of John & Andrew's boards? http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:30 PM Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card Hi Mike, Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. Thanks for your thoughts > On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Mike Stein > wrote: > > FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco > 64KZ-II DRAM cards. > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" > > To: ; "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM > Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card > > > Hi Jim, thanks for the info. > Always good to know what people think are good > cards, and what aren?t. > > Cheers > > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM >>> card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In >>> fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this >>> system and have decided to start looking for a >>> SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >>> >>> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >>> >>> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to >>> be working. >>> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >>> >>> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress >>> on the old power supply is obviously best, so >>> I?d be looking for either: >>> >>> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM >>> cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS >>> RAM16 would be preferred for sake of >>> consistency, but obviously not crucial. >>> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM >>> cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my >>> system) >>> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k >>> bank turned off >>> >>> I would love to hear from anyone with one of >>> the above cards who would be willing to pass >>> it on. >>> >>> Much thanks for your time. >>> >>> Best regards >>> >>> Philip >> I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, >> you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also >> had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that >> was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 >> system. >> >> Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is >> as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. >> >> Thanks >> Jim > From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 21:27:43 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:27:43 -0500 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> I'm in the process of fixing a floppy drive mechanism. I had to replace the heads on the drive with a NOS part and I need to re-glue the head carriage assembly to the band that attaches to the head stepper motor. The original adhesive is a clear blue glue of some sort, I suppose similar to loctite. Anyone know what this stuff is? It seems like it's come up before, but I'm not sure. Thanks, Geoff From philip at neoncluster.com Thu Mar 26 23:16:37 2015 From: philip at neoncluster.com (Philip Lord) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:16:37 +1300 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <5E4863C02FA34FA7B3C991E81233F4D7@310e2> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> <5E4863C02FA34FA7B3C991E81233F4D7@310e2> Message-ID: Well, maybe I?m too cheap, but some of the ebay prices just seem crazy. Hopefully I can find something at a more reasonable price. If not, then I guess I?ll have to bite the bullet. Those Econoram boards look nice and simple, but those RAM16 and RAM 17 boards look like the real deal. Andrew?s board certainly looks nice, but if it did need modifying to work in the IMSAI, I?m guessing I wouldn?t have the skill to do it. Unfortunately. Also everyone has their own philosophy on retro computing, mine is that I?d actually like to keep the systems as close to ?period" as possible. Putting a modern RAM/ROM board in the IMSAI doesn?t fit my philosophy. Thanks again for all the suggestions. > On Mar 27, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Maybe you could adapt one of John & Andrew's boards? > > http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm > > m > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 6:30 PM > Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card > > > Hi Mike, > Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. > > Thanks for your thoughts > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >> FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco 64KZ-II DRAM cards. >> >> m >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" >> To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM >> Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card >> >> >> Hi Jim, thanks for the info. >> Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. >> >> Cheers >> >> >>> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. >>>> >>>> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: >>>> >>>> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. >>>> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. >>>> >>>> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: >>>> >>>> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. >>>> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) >>>> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off >>>> >>>> I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. >>>> >>>> Much thanks for your time. >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> >>>> Philip >>> I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. >>> >>> Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Jim >> > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Mar 26 23:26:04 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 23:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Mac SE/30 making zipping and buzzing noises In-Reply-To: References: <550CA755.1070104@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 Mar 2015, dave at 661.org wrote: > On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 6:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 03/20/2015 02:08 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> Would that be the cause of a flicker in the crt? >>> >>> To me, it sounds as if there's an arc going on in the FBT. But that's >>> just from general knowledge--I have no experience with Mac SEs. >>> >> It's been a while, but as I said, those power connections can cause all >> sorts of odd issues. Just carefully & completely re-flow them with some >> SN63 material (if you have it, else SN60 will do) and know that it's >> one issue you won't have to face. >> >> IIRC, one unit with that problem had flicker, static in the speaker and >> also system instability. It was either an SE/30 or a Plus, I had >> several of each model at the time. > > Now for capacitor choice: would it be better to use surface-mount > tantalums or through-hole electrolytics surface-mounted? IMO SMD type tantalums are just way too temperamental for these applications. They are very intolerant of ripple and can only safely be used at a maximum of half of their rated voltage (according to the product engineers at both Kemet and AVX). I have some early 1990s equipment made up of 3 board stacks, and each of the boards in each device are absolutely loaded with tons of SMD tantalum capacitors. Each board has at least one SMD tantalum which is either browning or has failed catastrophically (thankfully the damage to the pc board substrate looks to be minimal). There is no particular pattern to the failures either, parts of different capacitance and voltages with different case sizes. Rather than solid tantalum, Panasonic SP-Cap or similar aluminum polymer capacitors are another possibility. These are available in the same SMD case sizes as traditional solid tantalum parts. For that fact, you might even be able to find OS-CON parts with the same SMD footprint as the original SMD aluminum electrolytic parts, too. For boards that originally used SMD aluminum electrolytic capacitors though, why not just use new SMD aluminum electrolytic parts? I've been doing this with good results in other equipment, including industrial control boards that need to last at least 10+ years in the field. Newer SMD aluminum electrolytic parts don't suffer from the problems the SMD electrolytics made in the early to mid 1990s had with faulty rubber seals (some of which was also due to the use of chlorinated cleaning chemicals during the manufacture of the boards). From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 00:03:03 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 22:03:03 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice Message-ID: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> Hi all -- Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, nice and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the storage behavior isn't quite right. On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key clears a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but leaves the outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters properly. You can see the overall effect here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it eventually completely erases the screen (while the power supply appears to be within tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so I'm not going to run it too long yet). So far everything else seems to be functioning properly, the cursor appears properly (and does not write through), input is accepted from the keyboard, etc. I've been reading through the service manual on Bitsavers and it describes a very in-depth alignment procedure which I'm prepared to go through (once I've got the power supplies rebuilt) but I thought I'd ask here if this problem rings any bells and if there's anything I should immediately suspect or adjust. You guys know everything :). Thanks as always for the advice, Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 27 00:42:28 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 05:42:28 +0000 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net>, <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I'm in the process of fixing a floppy drive mechanism. I had to replace the heads on the drive with a NOS part and > I need to re-glue the head carriage assembly to the band that attaches to the head stepper motor. The original > adhesive is a clear blue glue of some sort, I suppose similar to loctite. Anyone know what this stuff is? It seems like > it's come up before, but I'm not sure. What is the make and model of the drive? Are you sure it needs to be glued? On every drive I've worked on the band is kept under tension by a spring in the head carrage (maybe a leaf spring on the end), the ends of the band are fixed by hooks or screws. There may have been some glue originally to keep it in place during american football/shipping, but it isn't necessary IMHO. I've rebuilt a fair number of positioners and never put any glue on them. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 01:15:25 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 01:15:25 -0500 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: Loc-tite isn't a glue, it's an anaerobic sealant. It will +only+ cure if deprived of air (in fact, oxygen, I believe). It cannot be used in place of a typical adhesive, as it lacks many of the qualities of adhesives. Interesting fact - Loc-tite was developed several years before it could be marketed, as any time it was sealed up in an air-tight container, it would harden. It was only the development of gas-permeable polyethylene bottles that made it practical to sell commercially. The containers allow just enough gas ingress that the materials will not cure off in the bottle. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:42 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > I'm in the process of fixing a floppy drive mechanism. I had to replace > the heads on the drive with a NOS part and > > I need to re-glue the head carriage assembly to the band that attaches > to the head stepper motor. The original > > adhesive is a clear blue glue of some sort, I suppose similar to > loctite. Anyone know what this stuff is? It seems like > > it's come up before, but I'm not sure. > > What is the make and model of the drive? > > Are you sure it needs to be glued? On every drive I've worked on the band > is kept under tension by a > spring in the head carrage (maybe a leaf spring on the end), the ends of > the band are fixed by hooks or > screws. There may have been some glue originally to keep it in place > during american football/shipping, > but it isn't necessary IMHO. I've rebuilt a fair number of positioners and > never put any glue on them. > > -tony > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Mar 27 02:40:15 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 08:40:15 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150327074014.GA24609@Update.UU.SE> Hi We have a 4014 at the computer club and that patterns looks very familiar. It usually clears after a minute or so. We have assumed it was normal and have not investigated. Congratulations on a nice find! I'm quite jealous. /P On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 10:03:03PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, > nice and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the > storage behavior isn't quite right. > > On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get > stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key > clears a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but > leaves the outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters > properly. You can see the overall effect here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg > > After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE > increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it > eventually completely erases the screen (while the power supply > appears to be within tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it > so I'm not going to run it too long yet). > > So far everything else seems to be functioning properly, the cursor > appears properly (and does not write through), input is accepted > from the keyboard, etc. I've been reading through the service manual > on Bitsavers and it describes a very in-depth alignment procedure > which I'm prepared to go through (once I've got the power supplies > rebuilt) but I thought I'd ask here if this problem rings any bells > and if there's anything I should immediately suspect or adjust. You > guys know everything :). > > Thanks as always for the advice, > Josh > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Mar 27 05:22:40 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:22:40 +0000 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/03/2015 02:27, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I'm in the process of fixing a floppy drive mechanism. I had to > replace the heads on the drive with a NOS part and I need to re-glue > the head carriage assembly to the band that attaches to the head > stepper motor. The original adhesive is a clear blue glue of some > sort, I suppose similar to loctite. It's very unlikely to be cyanoacrylate. "Clear blue" is typical of low-viscosity epoxy, such as used for optical fibre terminations or to coat or seal some types of composites. It's often fairly hard or brittle. I'm surprised it's glued. Not just screwed? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Mar 27 06:44:05 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 07:44:05 -0400 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> <5514768C.3090509@jwsss.com> <8A920381-0C7F-41AA-95A0-5547C8335818@neoncluster.com> <3ED43646-EB96-4C4E-990D-BF4E8EB776D4@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <20150327114404.GA9702@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Hi Philip, You could buy the boards and build one of the N8VEM-S100 SRAM boards. I have the 16MB SRAM boards and mezzanine cards for the memory. Gary Kaufman has the 4MB. See http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB%20Inventory There's also 8M and 32M SRAM boards but I don't know if John has any left. See http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Index%20Page.htm Todd * Philip Lord [150326 18:30]: > Hi Mike, > Well it?s certainly nice to know the Cromemco is also another good option if I want to try DRAM again, but I am feeling that a good SRAM card maybe a safer option, and possibly easier for me to repair if anything goes wrong. > > Thanks for your thoughts > > > On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:32 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > > FWIW I've never had any problems with Cromemco 64KZ-II DRAM cards. > > > > m > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Lord" > > To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2015 5:19 PM > > Subject: Re: WTD: S100 Static RAM card > > > > > > Hi Jim, thanks for the info. > > Always good to know what people think are good cards, and what aren?t. > > > > Cheers > > > > > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 10:13 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On 3/26/2015 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: > >>> Hi all, > >>> I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. > >>> > >>> In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: > >>> > >>> 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. > >>> 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. > >>> > >>> Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: > >>> > >>> - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. > >>> - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) > >>> - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off > >>> > >>> I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. > >>> > >>> Much thanks for your time. > >>> > >>> Best regards > >>> > >>> Philip > >> I do not have any to pass on, but in the day, you couldn't do better than IMS 16k's I also had a Tarbell CPU with 256k of Dram, and that was the only dynamic ram I ever had in an S100 system. > >> > >> Also if you can find Compupro, I suspect it is as likely to be perfect as the IMS boards are. > >> > >> Thanks > >> Jim > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 27 07:27:35 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 07:27:35 -0500 Subject: Manual sought - Northern Telecom Spectron D101 Message-ID: <006501d06889$686b86f0$394294d0$@classiccmp.org> TSIA. I'm in need of an owner's manual (and ideally, a service manual as well would be nice) for a Northern Telecom Spectron D101. This is an RS232 serial datascope, basically a line monitor with some programmability (displays in binary, hex, ascii, or octal; start tracking on certain characters; substitute X string for Y string; etc.). I've googled excessively with no results, and also reached out to AEK. Any chance someone has one in their pile? Best, J From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 27 09:07:54 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 10:07:54 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <20150327074014.GA24609@Update.UU.SE> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> <20150327074014.GA24609@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > On Mar 27, 2015, at 3:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Hi > > We have a 4014 at the computer club and that patterns looks very > familiar. It usually clears after a minute or so. > > We have assumed it was normal and have not investigated. > > Congratulations on a nice find! I'm quite jealous. > > /P > > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 10:03:03PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, >> nice and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the >> storage behavior isn't quite right. >> >> On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get >> stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key >> clears a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but >> leaves the outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters >> properly. You can see the overall effect here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg >> >> After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE >> increases. No, that isn?t normal for a new 4014, but I could easily imagine things going out of tolerance in 40 years. A schematic or manual might give a clue, if one can be found. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 27 11:05:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:05:17 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55157FBD.7020405@pico-systems.com> On 03/27/2015 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty > good shape, nice and clean and it's in nearly-working > condition except that the storage behavior isn't quite right. > > On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters > don't get stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via > the RESET/PAGE key clears a roughly elliptical region in > the center of the display but leaves the outer edges a > mess. The cleared region stores characters properly. You > can see the overall effect here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg > > After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by > RESET/PAGE increases. I haven't run the terminal long > enough to see if it eventually completely erases the > screen (while the power supply appears to be within > tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so I'm not > going to run it too long yet). > Let it fully warm up. My guess is the cathodes in the flood guns are getting weak. Allowing them to fully warm up will probably help some. Also, as others have suggested, there may be some voltage adjustments that need to be set. But, the final adjustment is to set some of the voltages on the guns for optimum performance. there is a VERY critical adjustment of the flood guns (I think that's the right term) to get the storage to be stable as long as possible. Too much or too little flood beam causes the stored image to either bloom or fade. Then, the erase is performed by changing some voltage on the storage grid and pulsing the flood guns, and secondary emission (I think) erases the charge on the storage grid. It has been 30 years since I had to mess with a 4010/4014 series, but I THINK I still kind of remember how they work. Have you checked bitsavers for a manual? Jon From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Mar 27 11:36:16 2015 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:36:16 +0000 Subject: USB --> SCSI Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? Has anyone done it? Any pointers (drivers etc)? Thanks. -Bob From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 11:47:15 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:47:15 +0100 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: > Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? > Has anyone done it? > Any pointers (drivers etc)? I believe they existed, long ago. USB1 ones were terribly terribly slow. By the USB2 era, SCSI was disappearing, but they might exist. USB3, forget it. But I suspect that a device that old (we're talking turn-of-the-century) won't have drivers for Win7. You *might* have a chance of getting it working on 32-bit Win7. E.g. http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ http://www.synchrotech.com/product-usb/usb2-uscsi-conv_01.html Note the supported OSes. This looks more promising... http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/U2SCX.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 11:51:41 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:51:41 -0700 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <55158A9D.6070306@gmail.com> On 3/27/15 9:36 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? > Has anyone done it? > Any pointers (drivers etc)? > > Thanks. > -Bob Yes, sort of. I have a Xircom PortGear USB->SCSI adapter hooked up to that exact drive right now, concidentally. Win7 does not have drivers for the Xircom, but your average Linux distribution does -- and if you run that distribution in a VM (for example, using VirtualBox) you can forward the USB device from the host to the VM and use it there, which I have done successfully to image disks and tapes. It's not the fastest device, but it gets the job done and it's very convenient. - Josh From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Mar 27 11:53:29 2015 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 16:53:29 +0000 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789C28@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Speed is not a big issue (9-tracks aren't very fast to begin with)...but I'm not sure what flavor of scsi that the 7980s has...I suspect single-ended, so would something With ultra scsi work (is it backward compatible with single-ended)? If drivers are an issue, might it work if I spun up a virtual machine under windows-7 that ran an older os (either windows or linux)?...could the windows-7 machine just pass the USB device to the vm (and the vm would have drivers for it), without the host OS needing drivers? -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 11:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: USB --> SCSI On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: > Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? > Has anyone done it? > Any pointers (drivers etc)? I believe they existed, long ago. USB1 ones were terribly terribly slow. By the USB2 era, SCSI was disappearing, but they might exist. USB3, forget it. But I suspect that a device that old (we're talking turn-of-the-century) won't have drivers for Win7. You *might* have a chance of getting it working on 32-bit Win7. E.g. http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ http://www.synchrotech.com/product-usb/usb2-uscsi-conv_01.html Note the supported OSes. This looks more promising... http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/U2SCX.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 27 11:53:34 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice Message-ID: <20150327165334.5F5C718C0E9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I've been reading through the service manual on Bitsavers > From: Paul Koning > A schematic or manual might give a clue, if one can be found. > From: Jon Elson > Have you checked bitsavers for a manual? !! :-) Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 11:54:41 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 09:54:41 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <55157FBD.7020405@pico-systems.com> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> <55157FBD.7020405@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55158B51.1030309@gmail.com> On 3/27/15 9:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/27/2015 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, >> nice and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the >> storage behavior isn't quite right. >> >> On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get >> stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key >> clears a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but >> leaves the outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters >> properly. You can see the overall effect here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg >> >> After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE >> increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it >> eventually completely erases the screen (while the power supply >> appears to be within tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so >> I'm not going to run it too long yet). >> > Let it fully warm up. My guess is the cathodes in the flood guns are > getting weak. Allowing them to fully warm up will probably help > some. Also, as others have suggested, there may be some voltage > adjustments that need to be set. > But, the final adjustment is to set some of the voltages on the guns > for optimum performance. there is a VERY critical adjustment of the > flood guns (I think that's the right term) to get the storage to be > stable as long as possible. Too much or too little flood beam causes > the stored image to either bloom or fade. Then, the erase is > performed by changing some voltage on the storage grid and pulsing the > flood guns, and secondary emission (I think) erases the charge on the > storage grid. It has been 30 years since I had to mess with a > 4010/4014 series, but I THINK I still kind of remember how they work. > > Have you checked bitsavers for a manual? Yes, as I said I've been studying the service manual (on Bitsavers), which in typical Tek fashion is extremely detailed and helpful. It outlines the whole alignment procedure, but I figured I'd ask here first -- since this is a nearly 40-year-old terminal I'm interested to know if anyone on the list has dealt with similar issues and if there might be common failure points to check out before trying to re-align the thing. Thanks! Josh > > Jon > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 27 12:01:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Upgrading BDV11's to Q22 Message-ID: <20150327170125.5EA4618C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've just upgraded several BDV11's to Q22 (new EPROMs to handle more than 256KB of memory, adding termination for BDAL18-21, etc). If anyone has a BDV11 they want to update, let me know, and I can lend a hand, e.g. sending you new EPROMs, lists of jumpers to change, etc. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Mar 27 12:07:22 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789C28@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789C28@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <201503271707.NAA04007@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Speed is not a big issue (9-tracks aren't very fast to begin with)...but I'$ >> With ultra scsi work (is it backward compatible with single-ended)? In my experience - which is, admittedly, limited - SCSI (well, parallel SCSI; I don't really consider SAS SCSI, even though it has a very similar command set) is almost completely compatible. The "almost" is differential - what is in retrospect called high-voltage differential, that is, as opposed to LVD (low-voltage differential). Except for HVD, my experience has been that you can pretty much plug anything into anything, with adapters as necessary, and (with some termination caveats) it'll Just Work. Often everything gets slowed down to the speed of the slowest device on the bus, but it still _works_. I'm sure there are exceptions; I don't for a moment think I've met up with every variation SCSI has. But part of the point of this note is to provoke those familiar with them to mention them. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 12:11:06 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 13:11:06 -0400 Subject: Upgrading BDV11's to Q22 In-Reply-To: <20150327170125.5EA4618C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150327170125.5EA4618C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I've just upgraded several BDV11's to Q22 (new EPROMs to handle more than > 256KB of memory, adding termination for BDAL18-21, etc). If anyone has a BDV11 > they want to update, let me know, and I can lend a hand, e.g. sending you new > EPROMs, lists of jumpers to change, etc. Sure. I understand the task in principle, but it's nice to get the notes from someone who's been there. I have a couple of BDV-11s and plenty of 22-bit Qbus gear that would love to play nice. -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 12:15:38 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 12:15:38 -0500 Subject: Upgrading BDV11's to Q22 In-Reply-To: <20150327170125.5EA4618C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150327170125.5EA4618C0ED@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: If any one needs any I have a few dozen extra. $25 each plus $10 shipping for as many as you want. Paul On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I've just upgraded several BDV11's to Q22 (new EPROMs to handle more > than > 256KB of memory, adding termination for BDAL18-21, etc). If anyone has a > BDV11 > they want to update, let me know, and I can lend a hand, e.g. sending you > new > EPROMs, lists of jumpers to change, etc. > > Noel > From j at ckrubin.us Fri Mar 27 15:29:22 2015 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 20:29:22 +0000 Subject: cable for KV8-I video display (PDP-8/I) Message-ID: I'm looking for a "Dual I/O cable assembly", DEC part number D-IA-7006289-0-0. This cable links a PDP-8/I with the KV8-I graphics display option to a VT01 display and an H306 joystick. All I know at this point is that the cable connects to the 8/I via a G778 interface card and terminates at the other end in a 25-pin Cannon connector for the display (actually a Tek 611 display monitor) and a 9-pin Amphenol connector for the joystick. Does anyone have one of these display systems? I would be happy to find the cable but short of that, it would be a big help to have more info on the G778 interface card so I can build a cable. Thanks, Jack From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 27 17:04:27 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:04:27 -0700 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Mar-26, at 1:34 PM, Philip Lord wrote: > Hi all, > I?ve been struggling getting a 64k Dynamic RAM card back up and working in my IMSAI 8080. In fact I?m giving up on the DRAM card in this system and have decided to start looking for a SRAM card that can get the IMSAI up to 56k. > > In terms if SRAM cards, I presently have: > > 2 x Problem solver RAM16 cards - both seem to be working. > 2 x 8K RAM cards - both seem to be working. > > Less cards generating heat, and putting stress on the old power supply is obviously best, so I?d be looking for either: > > - 1 x 16k SRAM card (for a total of 4 RAM cards (3 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system). A PSS RAM16 would be preferred for sake of consistency, but obviously not crucial. > - 1 x 32k SRAM card (for a total of 3 RAM cards (1 x 32k, 1 x 16k + 1 x 8k) in my system) > - 1 x 64k SRAM card that can have the last 8k bank turned off > > I would love to hear from anyone with one of the above cards who would be willing to pass it on. If you're trying to remain period, the 4K / 8K / 16K boards would be more coincident with the IMSAI. What you have there sounds like a pretty typical growth line for a hobbyist S100 unit for the time - adding memory boards as finances allowed. Besides, near-empty S100 crates look rather sad - the more boards the better! AIR, the Altair power supply was a little anemic for the its slot-count capability, but that was something the IMSAI rectified or improved upon. Presuming the remaining 8K address space you have there is ROM, a board(s) with phantom capability may be what you want, to allow 64K RAM. 64K boards are kind of cheating for an early S100 machine, unless you want to do something with bankswitching and multiple 64Ks. ebay prices for routine S100 boards do seem excessive - 100+$/board (triple or more if it's a MITS board), should be half that, IMHO. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 27 17:38:25 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 15:38:25 -0700 Subject: WTD: S100 Static RAM card In-Reply-To: References: <14D585B3-2E8E-440E-9C08-12E0E1B7A404@neoncluster.com> Message-ID: <5515DBE1.6070206@sydex.com> On 03/27/2015 03:04 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > ebay prices for routine S100 boards do seem excessive - 100+$/board (triple or more if it's a MITS board), should be half that, IMHO. Unless it's a MITS 4K DRAM board--then half that. :) --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 27 17:59:38 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 22:59:38 -0000 Subject: Looking for an RX2620 Bezel Message-ID: <086301d068e1$b379d220$1a6d7660$@ntlworld.com> I would like to find the front bezel for a HP RX2620. The one I have has the tabs that hold it in place broken off. There is one on Ebay, but with postage from the US it adds up. Does anyone have one in the UK that they are willing to part with? I also wouldn't mind finding an optical drive for this machine, they seem pretty hard to find, so again, anyone have one to spare? Thanks Rob From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Mar 26 15:40:54 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2015 21:40:54 +0100 Subject: Dilog SU723A Message-ID: <55146ED6.6040105@gmail.com> Hello, I just received from a friend a Dilog SU723A, but I don't find any documentation about it. The board is rev.D and has two 50 pin connectors on top... which one should be used? From a quick look at the ICs on the PCB, I suspect one connector is for single ended, the other for differential SCSI, but I'm not sure about it... Anybody has some info / manual / other ROM dumps? My ROM image is available if somebody is interested on it. As I suspect that the same board could support also SU726A, if would be nice if somebody has ROMs and/or PLA dumps, could be interesting in being able to switch between features. Thanks Andrea From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Fri Mar 27 12:01:54 2015 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 11:01:54 -0600 Subject: USB --> SCSI References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <70F33150DE5C493B95F22DA835BFEDC7@RANGER1> I have the RATOC U2SCX with 32 bit driver, and I think a 64 bit driver for Win7. But have only used from winXP. I have used with HP DDS1 drive (don't recall number), Tanberg SLR5, Travan - Seagate STT320000N I use under Cygwin the commands: mt and dd. But also in slow process of rolling my own reading code. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: Liam Proven To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:47 AM Subject: Re: USB --> SCSI On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: > Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp > 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? > Has anyone done it? > Any pointers (drivers etc)? I believe they existed, long ago. USB1 ones were terribly terribly slow. By the USB2 era, SCSI was disappearing, but they might exist. USB3, forget it. But I suspect that a device that old (we're talking turn-of-the-century) won't have drivers for Win7. You *might* have a chance of getting it working on 32-bit Win7. E.g. http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ http://www.synchrotech.com/product-usb/usb2-uscsi-conv_01.html Note the supported OSes. This looks more promising... http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/U2SCX.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From bigral at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 14:20:51 2015 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 21:20:51 +0200 Subject: Dilog SU723A In-Reply-To: <55146ED6.6040105@gmail.com> References: <55146ED6.6040105@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I just received from a friend a Dilog SU723A, but I don't find any > documentation about it. According to "field guide" this is: SU723A U Dilog SCSI tape adapter. Emulates TMSCP. 7 drivesCould you make some photos and upload them to free photo hosting? From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:02:59 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 23:02:59 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <, > <,,> <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <,,> <,,> <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>,<550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) and we had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think I have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this project too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it was impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good, interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it seems that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I excepted. Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still fully enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all stuff what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, GRRR!). **** And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option, it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make sleigh of RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on stairs by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! More coming later! Now I have to sleep! Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > > > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and drives. > >> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded. > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. > > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might give that technique a try. > > paul > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:08:51 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:08:51 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: What is the lone big red box over by the shelves with the binders and books? 2841? -- Will On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote: > > I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) and we had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think I have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this project too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it was impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ > But now I have good, interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it seems that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I excepted. Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as mushroom farm ;) > Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still fully enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all stuff what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, GRRR!). > **** > And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option, it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make sleigh of RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on stairs by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > > Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > >> Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> From: paulkoning at comcast.net >> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> CC: publicmail at jwsss.com >> >> >> > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > >> > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! >> >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and drives. >> >> >> > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the packs unloaded. >> > I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. >> >> We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in those days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn?t want to try that with anything much newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might give that technique a try. >> >> paul >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:12:30 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 21:12:30 -0000 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <, > <, , > <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <, , > <, , > <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>, <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com> Wow..... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Johannes Thelen > Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > > I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) and we > had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think I > have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this project > too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it was > impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good, > interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it seems > that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That > company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... > Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I excepted. > Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as > mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick > look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still fully > enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all stuff > what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, GRRR!). > **** > And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only option, > it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make sleigh of > RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on stairs > by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > > Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > wrote: > > > > > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was indeed hydraulic! > > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive 2314 was hydraulic, and on night > a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the > damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators > exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and drives. > > >> > > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think we also had a oil spraying event > there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington University, > also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all the > packs unloaded. > > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected if the computer room is occupied, > it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. > > > > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of 1311s, which are similar to the > 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced the > failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from the > chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from > pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in those > days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with anything much > newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you might > give that technique a try. > > > > paul > > > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:19:52 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:19:52 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <, > <, , > <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <, , > <, , > <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>, <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2> Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > Wow..... > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctech >> [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of >> Johannes Thelen >> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some >> help) >> >> >> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! >> I'm little bit exhausted...) > and we >> had big time with plant manager when we went >> throught the stash! I think I >> have infected him of old computer disease, he >> had very excited this > project >> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some >> small items today, but it > was >> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ >> But now I have good, >> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets >> take the bad news first: it > seems >> that machine have donate some parts as can be >> seen at the pics. That >> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have >> been picked out for it... >> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every >> freaking place! >> Then interesting news: it have been used to >> since 1986, longer as I > excepted. >> Second, and more interesting fact, that same >> warehouse had used as >> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents >> every where! Just quick >> look, and I found tens of IBMs original >> documents! And also it is still > fully >> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are >> laying around and almost all > stuff >> what is know used back then, is still there >> (except Tektronix displays, > GRRR!). >> **** >> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh >> and thats really only option, >> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small >> pieces. I have to make > sleigh of >> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This >> whole set is lowered on > stairs >> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and >> would) work! >> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! >> Oh, the pictures: >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- >> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing >> >> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D >> Thaaaaanks! >> >> - Johannes ThelenFinland >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ >> >> >> >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need >> > some help) >> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net >> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson >> > > >> wrote: >> > > >> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was >> > >>> indeed hydraulic! >> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive >> > >> 2314 was hydraulic, and on > night >> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, >> and took it out, but the >> damage from that major failure was contained >> w/o the pack or actuators >> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took >> out all the packs and > drives. >> > >> >> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think >> > > we also had a oil spraying > event >> there, but it was relatively contained. We had >> one at Washington > University, >> also that might have contaminated several >> spindles before they got all the >> packs unloaded. >> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected >> > > if the computer room is > occupied, >> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly >> spread by the A/C system. >> > >> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of >> > 1311s, which are similar to > the >> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The >> field service tech replaced > the >> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade >> isopropyl alcohol from the >> chemistry department. He used that with >> Kimwipes to clean the oil from >> pack and heads. The result was complete >> success. Packs and heads in > those >> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want >> to try that with anything > much >> newer. But if you have a 2311 with >> contaminated heads or packs, you might >> give that technique a try. >> > >> > paul >> > >> > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 16:20:53 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2> References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com> <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com> <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com> <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com> <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com> <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com> <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2> Message-ID: That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. -- Will On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! > > m > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >> Wow..... >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> Johannes Thelen >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >>> >>> >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) >> >> and we >>> >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think >>> I >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this >> >> project >>> >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it >> >> was >>> >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good, >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it >> >> seems >>> >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I >> >> excepted. >>> >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still >> >> fully >>> >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all >> >> stuff >>> >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, >> >> GRRR!). >>> >>> **** >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only >>> option, >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make >> >> sleigh of >>> >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on >> >> stairs >>> >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! >>> Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing >>> >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! >>> >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ >>> >>> >>> >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com >>> > >>> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed hydraulic! >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was hydraulic, >>> > >> and on >> >> night >>> >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and >> >> drives. >>> >>> > >> >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a oil >>> > > spraying >> >> event >>> >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington >> >> University, >>> >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all >>> the >>> packs unloaded. >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the computer room >>> > > is >> >> occupied, >>> >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. >>> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are similar >>> > to >> >> the >>> >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced >> >> the >>> >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from >>> the >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in >> >> those >>> >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with anything >> >> much >>> >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you >>> might >>> give that technique a try. >>> > >>> > paul >>> > >>> >> >> > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 18:04:52 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:04:52 -0600 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789C28@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789C28@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Bob Brown wrote: > but I'm not sure what flavor of scsi that the 7980s has...I suspect single-ended, so would something > With ultra scsi work (is it backward compatible with single-ended)? I couldn't tell you about the 7980, but the OEM version, the 88780, was available with multiple options including single-ended and (high-voltage) differential. Most of the ones I've seen in surplus were differential. Unfortunately that is NOT compatible with LVD (low-voltage differential). There used to be active adapters between single-ended and high-voltage differential, but they were uncommon and expensive. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Mar 27 19:45:06 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:45:06 -0500 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Could it be one of those thick-bodied sealing lacquers, such as used to fix trimmer controls in place, and so on? I've seen them in deep green, red and a sort of amber color, but not blue. I'm sure many of us are familiar with the material - it holds fasteners & control shafts in place very well, but 'shatters' and falls away fairly cleanly, once you give the treated part a good twist. Glyptal is also used in those applications, but that material is typically opaque and a burnt-orange color. It's also a lot tougher. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:22 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 27/03/2015 02:27, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >> I'm in the process of fixing a floppy drive mechanism. I had to >> replace the heads on the drive with a NOS part and I need to re-glue >> the head carriage assembly to the band that attaches to the head >> stepper motor. The original adhesive is a clear blue glue of some >> sort, I suppose similar to loctite. >> > > It's very unlikely to be cyanoacrylate. "Clear blue" is typical of > low-viscosity epoxy, such as used for optical fibre terminations or to coat > or seal some types of composites. It's often fairly hard or brittle. > > I'm surprised it's glued. Not just screwed? > > -- > Pete > > Pete Turnbull > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 27 21:11:25 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 19:11:25 -0700 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <55160DCD.2060204@sydex.com> On 03/27/2015 05:45 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Could it be one of those thick-bodied sealing lacquers, such as used to fix > trimmer controls in place, and so on? I've seen them in deep green, red and > a sort of amber color, but not blue. > > I'm sure many of us are familiar with the material - it holds fasteners & > control shafts in place very well, but 'shatters' and falls away fairly > cleanly, once you give the treated part a good twist. > > Glyptal is also used in those applications, but that material is typically > opaque and a burnt-orange color. It's also a lot tougher. Lacquer based thread lockers/fillers used to be very common. Old-timers would use nail polish (cellulose nitrate-based). I've used plain old red Duco lacquer, but that's pretty much unobtainium nowadays. Loctite 8060 Pro-Lock Tight seems to be a modern-age equivalent. --Chuck From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 06:54:45 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com> <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, , , <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, Message-ID: Hello everybody! It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old computer obsession :D By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything :D One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally. However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;) ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure! Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors) I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff, so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed. Any ideas or questions are welcome! Ps. Happy weekend for everyone! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. > > -- > Will > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! > > > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM > > > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > > > > >> Wow..... > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>> Johannes Thelen > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > >>> > >>> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) > >> > >> and we > >>> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think > >>> I > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this > >> > >> project > >>> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it > >> > >> was > >>> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good, > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it > >> > >> seems > >>> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I > >> > >> excepted. > >>> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still > >> > >> fully > >>> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all > >> > >> stuff > >>> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, > >> > >> GRRR!). > >>> > >>> **** > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only > >>> option, > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make > >> > >> sleigh of > >>> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on > >> > >> stairs > >>> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > >>> Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > >>> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > >>> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > > >>> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed hydraulic! > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was hydraulic, > >>> > >> and on > >> > >> night > >>> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and > >> > >> drives. > >>> > >>> > >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a oil > >>> > > spraying > >> > >> event > >>> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington > >> > >> University, > >>> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all > >>> the > >>> packs unloaded. > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the computer room > >>> > > is > >> > >> occupied, > >>> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. > >>> > > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are similar > >>> > to > >> > >> the > >>> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced > >> > >> the > >>> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from > >>> the > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in > >> > >> those > >>> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with anything > >> > >> much > >>> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you > >>> might > >>> give that technique a try. > >>> > > >>> > paul > >>> > > >>> > >> > >> > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sat Mar 28 10:39:12 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 08:39:12 -0700 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <55160DCD.2060204@sydex.com> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> <55160DCD.2060204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <70DAD236-2C87-4438-8EEA-CC584AFF5172@nf6x.net> > On Mar 27, 2015, at 19:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Loctite 8060 Pro-Lock Tight seems to be a modern-age equivalent. I looked up 8060 on the Loctite site, and it appears to be a hot-melt glue? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 07:38:16 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:38:16 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>,<550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, , , , , , <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, , <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, , , Message-ID: > I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of > a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software > was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x > or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works, > then you have access to an old and most likely working version of > a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though > some command and some info to put it in action. > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you (shared joy is best joy :) But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment that? - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200 > > > Hello everybody! > > It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old computer obsession :D > > By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything :D > > One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally. However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;) ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure! > > Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors) > > > I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff, so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed. > > Any ideas or questions are welcome! > > Ps. Happy weekend for everyone! > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 > > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. > > > > -- > > Will > > > > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! > > > > > > m > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" > > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM > > > > > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > > > > > > > >> Wow..... > > >> > > >>> -----Original Message----- > > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > >>> Johannes Thelen > > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 > > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit exhausted...) > > >> > > >> and we > > >>> > > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I think > > >>> I > > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited this > > >> > > >> project > > >>> > > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, but it > > >> > > >> was > > >>> > > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have good, > > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news first: it > > >> > > >> seems > > >>> > > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. That > > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out for it... > > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as I > > >> > > >> excepted. > > >>> > > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as > > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just quick > > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is still > > >> > > >> fully > > >>> > > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost all > > >> > > >> stuff > > >>> > > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix displays, > > >> > > >> GRRR!). > > >>> > > >>> **** > > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only > > >>> option, > > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to make > > >> > > >> sleigh of > > >>> > > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered on > > >> > > >> stairs > > >>> > > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > > >>> Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > > >>> > > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > > >>> > > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland > > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) > > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > > > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed hydraulic! > > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was hydraulic, > > >>> > >> and on > > >> > > >> night > > >>> > > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, but the > > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or actuators > > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs and > > >> > > >> drives. > > >>> > > >>> > >> > > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a oil > > >>> > > spraying > > >> > > >> event > > >>> > > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington > > >> > > >> University, > > >>> > > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got all > > >>> the > > >>> packs unloaded. > > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the computer room > > >>> > > is > > >> > > >> occupied, > > >>> > > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C system. > > >>> > > > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are similar > > >>> > to > > >> > > >> the > > >>> > > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech replaced > > >> > > >> the > > >>> > > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol from > > >>> the > > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil from > > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads in > > >> > > >> those > > >>> > > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with anything > > >> > > >> much > > >>> > > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, you > > >>> might > > >>> give that technique a try. > > >>> > > > >>> > paul > > >>> > > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 28 10:26:30 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:26:30 -0500 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>, <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, , , , , , <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, , <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, , , Message-ID: <5516C826.8050609@pico-systems.com> On 03/28/2015 07:38 AM, Johannes Thelen wrote: >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. There were also some 3-ring binders marked with 360 fortran, etc. So, there may be manuals that don't belong to this system, but might be of historical value, anyway. Jon From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Mar 28 09:10:35 2015 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:10:35 -0000 Subject: TRU64 UNIX Message-ID: <2DA0FC378BEE415BB8E2030AC47F3EB8@XPBOX> Hi, I'm looking for someone in the UK with commercial experience of TRU64 UNIX, preferably with ORACLE, if anyone can help, please let me know. Regards Jim. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Mar 28 11:05:19 2015 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:05:19 +0100 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>,<550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, , , <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, , Message-ID: Hello Johannes. I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures. Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to find today. Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work again. Regards, Ed >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x >> or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works, >> then you have access to an old and most likely working version of >> a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though >> some command and some info to put it in action. >> > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything > what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you > (shared joy is best joy :) > > But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's > Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment > that? > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > >> From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200 >> >> >> Hello everybody! >> >> It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow >> they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who >> would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it >> is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old >> computer obsession :D >> >> By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that >> is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she >> has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything >> :D >> >> One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's >> name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can >> be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally. >> However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons >> weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;) >> ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure! >> >> Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on >> real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. >> I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without >> breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors) >> >> >> I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get >> trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready >> to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff, >> so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed. >> >> Any ideas or questions are welcome! >> >> Ps. Happy weekend for everyone! >> >> >> - Johannes ThelenFinland >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ >> >> >> >> > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> > >> > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. >> > >> > -- >> > Will >> > >> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein >> wrote: >> > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! >> > > >> > > m >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" >> >> > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" >> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM >> > > >> > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> > > >> > > >> > >> Wow..... >> > >> >> > >>> -----Original Message----- >> > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> > >>> Johannes Thelen >> > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 >> > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit >> exhausted...) >> > >> >> > >> and we >> > >>> >> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I >> think >> > >>> I >> > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited >> this >> > >> >> > >> project >> > >>> >> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, >> but it >> > >> >> > >> was >> > >>> >> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have >> good, >> > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news >> first: it >> > >> >> > >> seems >> > >>> >> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. >> That >> > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out >> for it... >> > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! >> > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as >> I >> > >> >> > >> excepted. >> > >>> >> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as >> > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just >> quick >> > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is >> still >> > >> >> > >> fully >> > >>> >> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost >> all >> > >> >> > >> stuff >> > >>> >> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix >> displays, >> > >> >> > >> GRRR!). >> > >>> >> > >>> **** >> > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only >> > >>> option, >> > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to >> make >> > >> >> > >> sleigh of >> > >>> >> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered >> on >> > >> >> > >> stairs >> > >>> >> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! >> > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! >> > >>> Oh, the pictures: >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- >> > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing >> > >>> >> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! >> > >>> >> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland >> > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) >> > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) >> > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net >> > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 >> > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > >> >> > >>> wrote: >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed >> hydraulic! >> > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was >> hydraulic, >> > >>> > >> and on >> > >> >> > >> night >> > >>> >> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, >> but the >> > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or >> actuators >> > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs >> and >> > >> >> > >> drives. >> > >>> >> > >>> > >> >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a >> oil >> > >>> > > spraying >> > >> >> > >> event >> > >>> >> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington >> > >> >> > >> University, >> > >>> >> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got >> all >> > >>> the >> > >>> packs unloaded. >> > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the >> computer room >> > >>> > > is >> > >> >> > >> occupied, >> > >>> >> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C >> system. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are >> similar >> > >>> > to >> > >> >> > >> the >> > >>> >> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech >> replaced >> > >> >> > >> the >> > >>> >> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol >> from >> > >>> the >> > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil >> from >> > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads >> in >> > >> >> > >> those >> > >>> >> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with >> anything >> > >> >> > >> much >> > >>> >> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, >> you >> > >>> might >> > >>> give that technique a try. >> > >>> > >> > >>> > paul >> > >>> > >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Mar 28 12:06:46 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:06:46 +0000 Subject: TRU64 UNIX In-Reply-To: <2DA0FC378BEE415BB8E2030AC47F3EB8@XPBOX> References: <2DA0FC378BEE415BB8E2030AC47F3EB8@XPBOX> Message-ID: Hi Jim I was a tru64 systems administrator for a few years before becoming a java dev. What is it you need help with? Regards Mark On 28 Mar 2015 16:42, "Jim Beacon" wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking for someone in the UK with commercial experience of TRU64 > UNIX, preferably with ORACLE, if anyone can help, please let me know. > > Regards > > Jim. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Mar 28 12:18:19 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 10:18:19 -0700 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <70DAD236-2C87-4438-8EEA-CC584AFF5172@nf6x.net> References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> <55152F70.10601@dunnington.plus.com> <55160DCD.2060204@sydex.com> <70DAD236-2C87-4438-8EEA-CC584AFF5172@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <5516E25B.7010909@sydex.com> On 03/28/2015 08:39 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Mar 27, 2015, at 19:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Loctite 8060 Pro-Lock Tight seems to be a modern-age equivalent. > > I looked up 8060 on the Loctite site, and it appears to be a hot-melt glue? Feh, probably got the wrong part number--the Loctite site is very confusing. Here's the stuff: http://www.henkelna.com/product-search-1554.htm?nodeid=8797876748289 --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Sat Mar 28 14:16:49 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 12:16:49 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <55158B51.1030309@gmail.com> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> <55157FBD.7020405@pico-systems.com> <55158B51.1030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've worked with (and on) one, but that was 35 years ago! It was nearly new?. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:54 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 3/27/15 9:05 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 03/27/2015 12:03 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, nice >>> and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the storage >>> behavior isn't quite right. >>> >>> On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get >>> stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key clears a >>> roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but leaves the outer >>> edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters properly. You can see >>> the overall effect here: >>> >>> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg >>> >>> After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE >>> increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it eventually >>> completely erases the screen (while the power supply appears to be within >>> tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so I'm not going to run it >>> too long yet). >>> >>> Let it fully warm up. My guess is the cathodes in the flood guns are >> getting weak. Allowing them to fully warm up will probably help some. >> Also, as others have suggested, there may be some voltage adjustments that >> need to be set. >> But, the final adjustment is to set some of the voltages on the guns for >> optimum performance. there is a VERY critical adjustment of the flood guns >> (I think that's the right term) to get the storage to be stable as long as >> possible. Too much or too little flood beam causes the stored image to >> either bloom or fade. Then, the erase is performed by changing some >> voltage on the storage grid and pulsing the flood guns, and secondary >> emission (I think) erases the charge on the storage grid. It has been 30 >> years since I had to mess with a 4010/4014 series, but I THINK I still kind >> of remember how they work. >> >> Have you checked bitsavers for a manual? >> > > Yes, as I said I've been studying the service manual (on Bitsavers), which > in typical Tek fashion is extremely detailed and helpful. It outlines the > whole alignment procedure, but I figured I'd ask here first -- since this > is a nearly 40-year-old terminal I'm interested to know if anyone on the > list has dealt with similar issues and if there might be common failure > points to check out before trying to re-align the thing. > > Thanks! > Josh > > >> Jon >> >> > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 28 15:57:44 2015 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:57:44 +0200 Subject: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) In-Reply-To: References: <20150321142342.6D25118C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, , , <550D9E9B.6050505@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DB7A3.2050804@pico-systems.com>, , , , <550DC8F5.4010905@pico-systems.com>, , <550DCB76.1030607@pico-systems.com>, <550DED67.70509@jwsss.com>, , <550E35AF.3020300@pico-systems.com>, , , , , , <00a701d068d2$bcf29620$36d7c260$@gmail.com>, , <44B3E19E5886460D92052BCDCC637140@310e2>, , , , , , Message-ID: > I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures. > Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to > find today. Ok, I understood you wrong. But I'll pick up everything what is related anything anything old computers! I'll make later catalog of this library, maybe there is something useful for someone. > Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine > from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work > again. Of course, more updates comes later when project goes further! - Johannes ThelenFinland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 17:05:19 +0100 > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > From: quapla at xs4all.nl > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hello Johannes. > > I don't need the manual, just noticed it on the pictures. > Better keep it yourself, as V7 documentation is more difficult to > find today. > > Looking forward to hear more about your efforts moving the machine > from it's current locattion to the new one and getting it to work > again. > > Regards, > > Ed > > > >> I also noted that there is an Oracle manual of some sort on top of > >> a gray-ish machinepart(?). That would be interesting, as this software > >> was available on IBM under MVS/VM. It could either be version 4.1.x > >> or version 5.0.x. If you come across that pack and it still works, > >> then you have access to an old and most likely working version of > >> a RDBMS. In that case, give me a shout and I could help you though > >> some command and some info to put it in action. > >> > > Hi Ed! I'm sure we get it for you ;) ...I have to just book everything > > what we carry out there, I think we have no problem to get it for you > > (shared joy is best joy :) > > > > But I can't find anything else Oracle stuff on the pics than Oracle's > > Server 7 pack over 1442 card read/punch (that greyish box)..? Did you ment > > that? > > > > > > - Johannes ThelenFinland > > Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > > http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > > > > > > > >> From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > >> Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 13:54:45 +0200 > >> > >> > >> Hello everybody! > >> > >> It is quite big system as everything in that place. However, somehow > >> they made that stairway still small... :/ I know there is few people who > >> would do something like this big/crazy project even they would want, it > >> is question of time/space/money, but mostly will and too far gone old > >> computer obsession :D > >> > >> By the way, my girlfriend saw first time this 1800, and she said "that > >> is not that big computer"... What?! I'm not sure who I'm with, maybe she > >> has some IBM Strecth on hers basement and she has not told me everything > >> :D > >> > >> One more fun thing, this computer have name: Heili. It is Finnish girl's > >> name, usually computer are named here man's names far as I know. It can > >> be named later by workers, I think it probably had no name originally. > >> However, even it have almost pink dress, I would not called couple tons > >> weighted monster as "girl", there could better expressions for it ;) > >> ...but she is pretty in her own way for sure! > >> > >> Anyways, I have rolled cabinets on Inventor (3D designing soft, not on > >> real life!) and it seems all cabinets can bend on the stairways easily. > >> I hope I can done whole thing under three days nice and clean, without > >> breaking anything (IBM either donaters walls/floors) > >> > >> > >> I'll make now official moving plan for donater, make needed tools, get > >> trucks, safety equipment and insurances for the crew then we are ready > >> to go! Also I'm taking with me welding equipment and wood working stuff, > >> so we can make backup plan on the scene if needed. > >> > >> Any ideas or questions are welcome! > >> > >> Ps. Happy weekend for everyone! > >> > >> > >> - Johannes ThelenFinland > >> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > >> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 17:20:53 -0400 > >> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > >> > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > >> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> > > >> > That has to be just about the biggest 1800 system ever made. > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Will > >> > > >> > On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Mike Stein > >> wrote: > >> > > Wow indeed! Now THAT's a project! > >> > > > >> > > m > >> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave G4UGM" > >> > >> > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > >> > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 5:12 PM > >> > > > >> > > Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Wow..... > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >> > >>> From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> > >>> Johannes Thelen > >> > >>> Sent: 27 March 2015 21:03 > >> > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >> > >>> Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I just visited see 1800 (900 km of driving! I'm little bit > >> exhausted...) > >> > >> > >> > >> and we > >> > >>> > >> > >>> had big time with plant manager when we went throught the stash! I > >> think > >> > >>> I > >> > >>> have infected him of old computer disease, he had very excited > >> this > >> > >> > >> > >> project > >> > >>> > >> > >>> too, haha! :) Original plan was to pickup some small items today, > >> but it > >> > >> > >> > >> was > >> > >>> > >> > >>> impossible, because of all my hurry at work :/ But now I have > >> good, > >> > >>> interesting and of course, bad news ... Lets take the bad news > >> first: it > >> > >> > >> > >> seems > >> > >>> > >> > >>> that machine have donate some parts as can be seen at the pics. > >> That > >> > >>> company had another 1800, maybe some parts have been picked out > >> for it... > >> > >>> Also there is "small" dust problem, it is every freaking place! > >> > >>> Then interesting news: it have been used to since 1986, longer as > >> I > >> > >> > >> > >> excepted. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Second, and more interesting fact, that same warehouse had used as > >> > >>> mushroom farm ;) Good news: There is documents every where! Just > >> quick > >> > >>> look, and I found tens of IBMs original documents! And also it is > >> still > >> > >> > >> > >> fully > >> > >>> > >> > >>> enough to fix it up. Some spare parts are laying around and almost > >> all > >> > >> > >> > >> stuff > >> > >>> > >> > >>> what is know used back then, is still there (except Tektronix > >> displays, > >> > >> > >> > >> GRRR!). > >> > >>> > >> > >>> **** > >> > >>> And that moving... Somebody recommend sleigh and thats really only > >> > >>> option, > >> > >>> it is absolute enourmous work to but it small pieces. I have to > >> make > >> > >> > >> > >> sleigh of > >> > >>> > >> > >>> RHS beams, plywood and polyamidi slides. This whole set is lowered > >> on > >> > >> > >> > >> stairs > >> > >>> > >> > >>> by winch. That's the plan and it should (and would) work! > >> > >>> More coming later! Now I have to sleep! > >> > >>> Oh, the pictures: > >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W- > >> > >>> SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Ps. And thank you for all for good advices! :D Thaaaaanks! > >> > >>> > >> > >>> - Johannes ThelenFinland > >> > >>> Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) > >> > >>> http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Subject: Re: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need > some help) > >> > >>> > From: paulkoning at comcast.net > >> > >>> > Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2015 13:53:04 -0400 > >> > >>> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > >>> > CC: publicmail at jwsss.com > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > On Mar 21, 2015, at 11:23 PM, Jon Elson > > > >> > >> > >>> wrote: > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > > On 03/21/2015 05:15 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >>> > >> On 3/21/2015 12:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> OK, a quick search shows the 2311 was > >>> indeed > >> hydraulic! > >> > >>> > >> The University of Missouri, Rolla 9 drive > >> 2314 was > >> hydraulic, > >> > >>> > >> and on > >> > >> > >> > >> night > >> > >>> > >> > >>> a drive's actuator unloaded into the pack area, and took it out, > >> but the > >> > >>> damage from that major failure was contained w/o the pack or > >> actuators > >> > >>> exiting the enclosure. however the debris took out all the packs > >> and > >> > >> > >> > >> drives. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >>> > > This one wasn't when I was there. I think > > we also had a > >> oil > >> > >>> > > spraying > >> > >> > >> > >> event > >> > >>> > >> > >>> there, but it was relatively contained. We had one at Washington > >> > >> > >> > >> University, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> also that might have contaminated several spindles before they got > >> all > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> packs unloaded. > >> > >>> > > I think this one is fairly quickly detected > > if the > >> computer room > >> > >>> > > is > >> > >> > >> > >> occupied, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> it causes a strong oily smell that is quickly spread by the A/C > >> system. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > We had a 1620/II in college with a pair of > 1311s, which are > >> similar > >> > >>> > to > >> > >> > >> > >> the > >> > >>> > >> > >>> 2311. The system drive sprung a leak. The field service tech > >> replaced > >> > >> > >> > >> the > >> > >>> > >> > >>> failed seals, and I obtained some reagent grade isopropyl alcohol > >> from > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> chemistry department. He used that with Kimwipes to clean the oil > >> from > >> > >>> pack and heads. The result was complete success. Packs and heads > >> in > >> > >> > >> > >> those > >> > >>> > >> > >>> days had tolerances far larger; I wouldn't want to try that with > >> anything > >> > >> > >> > >> much > >> > >>> > >> > >>> newer. But if you have a 2311 with contaminated heads or packs, > >> you > >> > >>> might > >> > >>> give that technique a try. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > paul > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > From dave at 661.org Sat Mar 28 20:45:23 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:45:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FFS: 2x Vishay Siliconix DG506AR Single 16Ch/Differential 8Ch CMOS Analog Multiplexer Message-ID: I have two Vishay Siliconix DG506AR Single 16Ch/Differential 8Ch CMOS Analog Multiplexers free for shipping. I tried selling them on Ebay and got no nibbles at all. These are white-ceramic with white lids. I found them in a small box labeled as though they were free samples from Vishay. The foam appears to have consumed a bit of the gold, but they should work okay. See them in https://www.flickr.com/photos/32548582 at N02/sets/72157647852420954/. Note: I'm keeping that curious-looking paper tape punch. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Sat Mar 28 22:17:54 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 03:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP-8I front panel clone project Message-ID: I figured a goodly number of folks here would appreciate this: http://hackaday.com/2015/03/26/hackaday-retro-edition-remaking-the-pdp-8i-with-a-raspberry-pi/ It's a clone of a PDP-8I front using modern parts and driven by Raspberry Pi running SIMH. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:16:57 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:16:57 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! Message-ID: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Hey all -- Last summer I picked up a Ridge 32/330 that became available locally. This is a fairly obscure early RISC machine intended to be a competitor to the VAX, it uses a 32-bit CPU at 12.5Mhz built from discrete components (spanning three large PCBs). Mine's outfitted with 8mb of ECC memory, Pertec, SMD and SCSI QIC controllers, and Ethernet. You can see some pictures of this beast at: https://plus.google.com/117997069161125071032/posts/JtsR3BokUxp?pid=6063976811386454738&oid=117997069161125071032 I got it running late last year after rebuilding the QIC tape drive and dealing with some intermittent failures due to a couple of low-quality DIP sockets. I now have a set of dedicated 20A circuits installed in my basement so I can run it for longer periods of time without worrying about burning my house down, so I'll be running it for the next couple of weeks just for fun to keep the basement warm and run up my electrical bill :). It's currently running RX/V 1.1 (Ridge's UNIX variant) and it's on the Internet (indirectly, since exposing a 25-year old UNIX directly to the 'net seems like a bad idea). I thought maybe some people here might be interested in checking it out since it's pretty obscure, if you want an account to play around, drop me a line and I can hook you up. I don't know of any other Ridge machines out there (running or not) -- if you have one let me know, there's very little information out there on these things. I'll add that I'm looking for an external SMD cabinet and cabling so that I can image the original SMD disk that was in the Ridge when I got it; it looks like it contains a valid partition table, but it will not boot. I didn't want to wipe it so the Ridge is currently running off of a spare drive -- I'd like to hook it up externally to dump an image from the running RX/V system. If anyone has one to loan (preferably within driving distance of Seattle) let me know. Once that's done, it's time to figure out how to get the Eagle that came with it running again... And a huge thanks to Al Kossow for archiving the OS media that's on Bitsavers, without which this machine would be a very large boat anchor taking up many cubic feet in my basement. (If anyone has any media or docs for this that aren't on Bitsavers, let me know -- I'm in particular looking for an ROS distribution on QIC media...) - Josh From b4 at gewt.net Sun Mar 29 00:21:14 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Mar 2015, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's currently running RX/V 1.1 (Ridge's UNIX variant) and it's on the > Internet (indirectly, since exposing a 25-year old UNIX directly to the 'net > seems like a bad idea). I thought maybe some people here might be interested > in checking it out since it's pretty obscure, if you want an account to play > around, drop me a line and I can hook you up. I don't know of any other > Ridge machines out there (running or not) -- if you have one let me know, > there's very little information out there on these things. > I'd not mind an account! -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 00:32:21 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:32:21 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55178E65.4070008@gmail.com> And, of course, right after I send this out, after having run flawlessly all day, one of the +12V rails has gone poof. Looks like I have some more debugging on my hands :) - Josh On 3/28/15 10:16 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Last summer I picked up a Ridge 32/330 that became available locally. > This is a fairly obscure early RISC machine intended to be a > competitor to the VAX, it uses a 32-bit CPU at 12.5Mhz built from > discrete components (spanning three large PCBs). Mine's outfitted > with 8mb of ECC memory, Pertec, SMD and SCSI QIC controllers, and > Ethernet. > > You can see some pictures of this beast at: > > https://plus.google.com/117997069161125071032/posts/JtsR3BokUxp?pid=6063976811386454738&oid=117997069161125071032 > > > I got it running late last year after rebuilding the QIC tape drive > and dealing with some intermittent failures due to a couple of > low-quality DIP sockets. I now have a set of dedicated 20A circuits > installed in my basement so I can run it for longer periods of time > without worrying about burning my house down, so I'll be running it > for the next couple of weeks just for fun to keep the basement warm > and run up my electrical bill :). > > It's currently running RX/V 1.1 (Ridge's UNIX variant) and it's on the > Internet (indirectly, since exposing a 25-year old UNIX directly to > the 'net seems like a bad idea). I thought maybe some people here > might be interested in checking it out since it's pretty obscure, if > you want an account to play around, drop me a line and I can hook you > up. I don't know of any other Ridge machines out there (running or > not) -- if you have one let me know, there's very little information > out there on these things. > > I'll add that I'm looking for an external SMD cabinet and cabling so > that I can image the original SMD disk that was in the Ridge when I > got it; it looks like it contains a valid partition table, but it will > not boot. I didn't want to wipe it so the Ridge is currently running > off of a spare drive -- I'd like to hook it up externally to dump an > image from the running RX/V system. If anyone has one to loan > (preferably within driving distance of Seattle) let me know. > > Once that's done, it's time to figure out how to get the Eagle that > came with it running again... > > And a huge thanks to Al Kossow for archiving the OS media that's on > Bitsavers, without which this machine would be a very large boat > anchor taking up many cubic feet in my basement. (If anyone has any > media or docs for this that aren't on Bitsavers, let me know -- I'm in > particular looking for an ROS distribution on QIC media...) > > - Josh > > > From mark at markesystems.com Sun Mar 29 00:37:59 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2015 22:37:59 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 5, Issue 28 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC2A305B2FF4B8CACAF4783370E84B8@Daedalus> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2015 23:02:59 +0200 From: Johannes Thelen To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Huge IBM 1800 find (and need some help) Oh, the pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_DR111cK6W-SFJpMm16MVgyVFk&usp=sharing Wow! That's fantastic!!! 20150327_121311.jpg ~~ Mark Moulding From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 02:18:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 08:18:04 +0100 Subject: Installing a TF85 into a BA440 Enclosure Message-ID: <090601d069f0$7f7f48a0$7e7dd9e0$@ntlworld.com> I have a TF85 I want to install into a BA440 enclosure. I took the mounting rails from a TK70 and combined it with the small board from an RF drive which has the DSSI cable and a power cable. I plugged the power cable into a socket on a board attached to the drive. The drive itself has another power socket. I assumed it was getting power from the socket on the board attached to the drive, but when I power on the machine, the tape drive itself appears not to get any power. Is there supposed to be a special board that goes into the mounting that has *two* power cables? I have tried to find documentation on this but have not been able to find anything. Thanks Rob From shadoooo at gmail.com Sat Mar 28 19:12:30 2015 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 01:12:30 +0100 Subject: Dilog SU723A Message-ID: <5517436E.7010207@gmail.com> Hello, if you have a place where I can upload, no problem for a couple of images. Andrea From js at cimmeri.com Sun Mar 29 11:03:13 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:03:13 -0500 Subject: Installing a TF85 into a BA440 Enclosure In-Reply-To: <090601d069f0$7f7f48a0$7e7dd9e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <090601d069f0$7f7f48a0$7e7dd9e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <55182241.8010603@cimmeri.com> On 3/29/2015 2:18 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have a TF85 I want to install into a BA440 enclosure ... Is there supposed to be a special board that goes into the mounting that has *two* power cables? Yes. - J. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Mar 29 11:48:35 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 11:48:35 -0500 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55182CE3.9040202@pico-systems.com> On 03/29/2015 12:16 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Last summer I picked up a Ridge 32/330 that became > available locally. This is a fairly obscure early RISC > machine intended to be a competitor to the VAX, it uses a > 32-bit CPU at 12.5Mhz built from discrete components > (spanning three large PCBs). Mine's outfitted with 8mb of > ECC memory, Pertec, SMD and SCSI QIC controllers, and > Ethernet. > > You can see some pictures of this beast at: > > https://plus.google.com/117997069161125071032/posts/JtsR3BokUxp?pid=6063976811386454738&oid=117997069161125071032 > > WOW, this is something like what I was trying to build in about 1982. See http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html But, trying to do this all by myself, I kind of got bogged down. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 29 11:50:40 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:50:40 +0100 Subject: Installing a TF85 into a BA440 Enclosure In-Reply-To: <55182241.8010603@cimmeri.com> References: <090601d069f0$7f7f48a0$7e7dd9e0$@ntlworld.com> <55182241.8010603@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <096f01d06a40$7d568de0$7803a9a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > js at cimmeri.com > Sent: 29 March 2015 17:03 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Installing a TF85 into a BA440 Enclosure > > > > On 3/29/2015 2:18 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I have a TF85 I want to install into a BA440 enclosure ... Is there supposed to > be a special board that goes into the mounting that has *two* power cables? > > Yes. > Thanks :-( I suppose I could make an addition to the power cable, but do you know a part number I could search for? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 29 12:28:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 10:28:48 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55183650.10703@sydex.com> The Ridge 32 looks pretty cool, but what drew my attention was the box sitting next to it--a Houdaille mini. I'm familiar with the Houdaille Strippit turret punches and have a few floppies from them. http://www.strippittech.com/STRIPPIT_HOUDAILLE_HECC80_CONTROLS.html Do you know what the box you have was used for? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 13:17:20 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:17:20 -0500 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <551841B0.1040304@gmail.com> On 03/29/2015 12:16 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > You can see some pictures of this beast at: Damn, that's nice :) I always think that "old Unix" is much of a muchness in machines of this era - the OS is probably nothing that special; it's the hardware that makes them interesting. > I'll add that I'm looking for an external SMD cabinet and cabling so that I > can image the original SMD disk that was in the Ridge when I got it Do you know the history of this particular system? I'd say it's definitely worth doing, just for whatever software and data (which might tell some sort of "story") is on the drive. cheers Jules From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 29 14:22:00 2015 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 19:22:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod Message-ID: <1138179422.858197.1427656920098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I thought my latest little retrocomputing project might beof interest.?A few weeks ago, our accounting department trashed some oldequipment that had been in a closet sine the 70?s.? Because it was all fully depreciated long ago, the stuff wasup for grabs.? Most of it was junk,but they did have 5 HP 9100B calculators that seemed to be in pretty goodphysical shape.? These are from the1960?s, and are pretty huge for a calculator, by today?s standards.? I tried them all, and they all seemedto have some pretty weird behavior.?When you hit the ?+? key, it doesn?t wait for another number, butinstead adds the last row directly to the second row.? I suppose that?s why these have been out of commission allthese years.? View image: Strange calculator behavior | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | View image: Strange calculator behaviorhttp://postimg.org/image/rnyl9uexz/ Link copy to clipboard http://s23.postimg.org/otvfwecrv/Strange_calculator_behavior.jpg Direct Link copy to clipboard ? | | | | View on postimg.org | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | I figured since they are free, I?d pick one up and find aproject for it.? They do have somepretty cool cases.? They had someprinters as well, off in a corner, but I was more interested in using thecalculator as the basis for some kind of retrocomputing project, and theprinters were not compatible with anything else, so I passed.?This weekend, while cleaning up the lab, I came across anold Jumptec PC104 form-factor board with a 486 processor and an add-on LCDcontroller.? I figured this couldbe the perfect ?upgrade? for the 9100B.?Luckily, the HP machine was very well designed, and easy todisassemble.? I was very easilyable to fit the PCM-104 stack, a power supply, screen, SD card, and HappyHacking keyboard.? Almost a perfectfit!!?View image: Out with the old, in with the new!! | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | View image: Out with the old, in with the new!!http://postimg.org/image/6051lnp5z/ Link copy to clipboard http://s23.postimg.org/5am99aomj/Out_with_the_old_in_with_the_new.jpg Direct Link copy to clipb... | | | | View on postimg.org | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | Of course, no retro-computer is complete without a properretro-operating system.? Here youcan see the project in near final shape, running windows 95Perhaps some time inthe future, I?ll upgrade this to a more modern processor, but for now, justpure retrocomputing goodness! View image: Up and running, retro style! | ? | | ? | | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? | | View image: Up and running, retro style!http://postimg.org/image/xm7t6c8iv/ Link copy to clipboard http://s23.postimg.org/ki28tngh7/Up_and_running_retro_style.jpg Direct Link copy to clipboard ? | | | | View on postimg.org | Preview by Yahoo | | | | ? | ?Future upgrades include:??????Laser-cutting or 3d-printing a proper faceplatefor the keyboard, and transplanting the keyboard PCB directly to the case.??????Adding some LED strip-lighting for a morestriking presentation.?Let me know what you think!?Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 29 14:33:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:33:45 -0700 Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod In-Reply-To: <1138179422.858197.1427656920098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1138179422.858197.1427656920098.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55185399.6020301@sydex.com> On 03/29/2015 12:22 PM, Dave wrote: > I thought my latest little retrocomputing project might beof > interest. A few weeks ago, our accounting department trashed some > oldequipment that had been in a closet sine the 70?s. Because it was > all fully depreciated long ago, the stuff wasup for grabs. Most of > it was junk,but they did have 5 HP 9100B calculators that seemed to > be in pretty goodphysical shape. These are from the1960?s, and are > pretty huge for a calculator, by today?s standards. I tried them > all, and they all seemedto have some pretty weird behavior. When you > hit the ?+? key, it doesn?t wait for another number, butinstead adds > the last row directly to the second row. I suppose that?s why these > have been out of commission allthese years. View image: Strange > calculator behavior We got it--it's a joke. Save it for tomorrow. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Sun Mar 29 14:35:21 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 12:35:21 -0700 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <551853F9.4090803@att.net> On 3/27/2015 9:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: > >> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? >> Has anyone done it? >> Any pointers (drivers etc)? >> > I believe they existed, long ago. USB1 ones were terribly terribly > slow. By the USB2 era, SCSI was disappearing, but they might exist. > USB3, forget it. > > But I suspect that a device that old (we're talking > turn-of-the-century) won't have drivers for Win7. You *might* have a > chance of getting it working on 32-bit Win7. > > > E.g. > > http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ > > http://www.synchrotech.com/product-usb/usb2-uscsi-conv_01.html > > Note the supported OSes. > > This looks more promising... > > http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/U2SCX.html > > wow! after noting the "discontinued" label at the Ratoc homepage, I looked at Epay... were they always *that* expensive? Steve From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Mar 29 16:31:02 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 14:31:02 -0700 Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod In-Reply-To: <55185399.6020301@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1427664662.37280.YahooMailBasic@web184705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Sun, 3/29/15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/29/2015 12:22 PM, Dave wrote: >> I thought my latest little retrocomputing project might beof >> interest. A few weeks ago, our accounting department trashed some >> oldequipment that had been in a closet sine the 70?s.? Because it was >> ... > > We got it--it's a joke.? Save it for tomorrow. Even as a joke, that trash can pic is painful...like painting a velvet Elvis over a van Gogh BLS From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 17:32:19 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:32:19 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options Message-ID: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> Amongst other things, I picked up a SGI Indigo2 system yesterday. It turned out that it had the original packaging, and that it's an Impact 10000 machine. For graphics however it has a four-board set; does anyone know what this might be? Wikipedia talks about a three-board set for the Maximum Impact, and fewer cards for lesser options, but I've not seen mention anywhere of a machine using four (unless they're just not counting the analog output board as part of the three?) I'm not sure what it has for RAM; all of the sockets are filled. Someone had scribbled 32MB and 1GB of disk on the box, but it has 2 x 4GB drives fitted, so that's not necessarily correct. I need to clean the dust out before I try powering up, but does anyone know what a minimum config would be? Can I power up with no disks and framebuffer, and expect to get a serial console? I'd like to not stress the PSU (or risk the framebuffer cards) initially if possible - the previous owner said they never ran it, although it was supposedly working when they got it. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 17:53:42 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:53:42 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> On 03/29/2015 05:32 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > For graphics however it has a four-board set; does anyone know what this > might be? Wikipedia talks about a three-board set for the Maximum Impact, > and fewer cards for lesser options, but I've not seen mention anywhere of a > machine using four (unless they're just not counting the analog output > board as part of the three?) Just on the back of that, the board with the 13w3 is actually the second board down. The top board has a DA26F connector and a connector with three rows of 15 pins each. Not a lot of clues on the board as to its purpose, although it does say MGV1 in one corner. Maybe some form of hardware MPEG encoder or capture board? cheers Jules From dave at willomail.co.uk Sun Mar 29 17:57:58 2015 From: dave at willomail.co.uk (David Williams) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:57:58 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> On 29/03/2015 23:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/29/2015 05:32 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> For graphics however it has a four-board set; does anyone know what this >> might be? Wikipedia talks about a three-board set for the Maximum >> Impact, >> and fewer cards for lesser options, but I've not seen mention >> anywhere of a >> machine using four (unless they're just not counting the analog output >> board as part of the three?) > > Just on the back of that, the board with the 13w3 is actually the > second board down. The top board has a DA26F connector and a connector > with three rows of 15 pins each. Not a lot of clues on the board as to > its purpose, although it does say MGV1 in one corner. Maybe some form > of hardware MPEG encoder or capture board? > I think that board is indeed a video capture board. The unusual connector is for an IndyCam. Plenty of info & photos of the Indigo graphics options here... http://www.sgistuff.net/hardware/systems/indigo2.html#graphics You should be able to power the machine up without drives or graphics options. If no keyboard is detected, all console IO is directed to the first serial port. Cheers, Dave From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Mar 29 18:37:56 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 16:37:56 -0700 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150329163756.61beece4@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:32:19 -0500 Jules Richardson wrote: > > Amongst other things, I picked up a SGI Indigo2 system yesterday. It > turned out that it had the original packaging, and that it's an > Impact 10000 machine. > > For graphics however it has a four-board set; does anyone know what > this might be? Wikipedia talks about a three-board set for the > Maximum Impact, and fewer cards for lesser options, but I've not seen > mention anywhere of a machine using four (unless they're just not > counting the analog output board as part of the three?) > > I'm not sure what it has for RAM; all of the sockets are filled. > Someone had scribbled 32MB and 1GB of disk on the box, but it has 2 x > 4GB drives fitted, so that's not necessarily correct. > > I need to clean the dust out before I try powering up, but does > anyone know what a minimum config would be? Can I power up with no > disks and framebuffer, and expect to get a serial console? I'd like > to not stress the PSU (or risk the framebuffer cards) initially if > possible - the previous owner said they never ran it, although it was > supposedly working when they got it. Lots of Technical info on SGI systems here: "SGI Advice and Technical Data" http://vintagecomputers.info/sgi.html This is a link to the North American mirror (which I host) of the primary UK site. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From isking at uw.edu Sun Mar 29 19:45:02 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:45:02 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a running 4000/300, and these are a very nice machine - it's my usual go-to VMS box. I hope someone picks it up and gives it some TLC! On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: > I have a VAX 4000-300 that I want to pass on as I don't have room for it. > It is in a BA440 enclosure (marked VAX 4000-400). The CPU board had a > couple of problems, the levers that are used to push it into the slot have > been broken, however it will push into the slot OK and work. The onboard > Ethernet (SGEC) is also not working, but I have included a DESQA so you can > network it. It has 64MB of memory (2x 32MB). It also has a CXY08 board. > > It does not have any disks because I want to keep the few DSSI disks I > have, however I will include two DSSI covers. You can still boot it as a > satellite of course. In fact I was toying with the idea of putting a > Raspberry Pi inside the enclosure with a crossover LAN cable and running if > off SIMH on that. > > It is free, however I would appreciate a small donation, as it has cost me > money to collect it to save it from being dumped. > > It is in the UK, in South Manchester. Although I am currently working a lot > in Coventry so could bring it to that area. I will also be at DEC Legacy in > Windermere 11-12 April, although I would prefer to leave room in my car for > the machines I want to exhibit, if possible. > > Regards > > Rob > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 19:53:51 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 17:53:51 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55182CE3.9040202@pico-systems.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> <55182CE3.9040202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <55189E9F.4030303@gmail.com> On 3/29/15 9:48 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/29/2015 12:16 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hey all -- >> >> Last summer I picked up a Ridge 32/330 that became available >> locally. This is a fairly obscure early RISC machine intended to be >> a competitor to the VAX, it uses a 32-bit CPU at 12.5Mhz built from >> discrete components (spanning three large PCBs). Mine's outfitted >> with 8mb of ECC memory, Pertec, SMD and SCSI QIC controllers, and >> Ethernet. >> >> You can see some pictures of this beast at: >> >> https://plus.google.com/117997069161125071032/posts/JtsR3BokUxp?pid=6063976811386454738&oid=117997069161125071032 >> >> > WOW, this is something like what I was trying to build in about 1982. > See > http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html > > But, trying to do this all by myself, I kind of got bogged down. > > Jon > Wow, that is seriously cool! Sounds like something you need to finish up one of these days :). - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 20:06:08 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:06:08 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55183650.10703@sydex.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> <55183650.10703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5518A180.1060307@gmail.com> On 3/29/15 10:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Ridge 32 looks pretty cool, but what drew my attention was the box > sitting next to it--a Houdaille mini. I'm familiar with the Houdaille > Strippit turret punches and have a few floppies from them. > > http://www.strippittech.com/STRIPPIT_HOUDAILLE_HECC80_CONTROLS.html > > Do you know what the box you have was used for? It's a rebadged PDP-8/L from late 1969. The guy I got it from says it was used until the mid-2000s for creating paper tapes that drove CNC machines. It came with an ASR-33 teletype, its only peripheral, so I assume the ASR was used for punching the tapes. After a few small repairs it's running fine, I still need to get the ASR-33 working properly (still having trouble with the reader-run control, and everything needs to be cleaned.) I have more pictures of it here: https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/117997069161125071032/albums/5900332767325749025 Thanks, Josh > > --Chuck > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 20:14:16 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:14:16 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <551841B0.1040304@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> <551841B0.1040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5518A368.8060007@gmail.com> On 3/29/15 11:17 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/29/2015 12:16 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> You can see some pictures of this beast at: > > Damn, that's nice :) I always think that "old Unix" is much of a > muchness in machines of this era - the OS is probably nothing that > special; it's the hardware that makes them interesting. It's a pretty crude UNIX port, they didn't do much with it to pretty it up or anything, but it's functional.... (the shutdown process is: run "shutdown" (no args) then wait for the machine to drop to single-user, run "sync" a couple of times and turn the machine off. Still makes me nervous every time :). But the hardware seems to be very well built and an interesting design. It's also pretty fast (relative to other machines I have from that era) at least in terms of integer performance based on a very crude benchmark I wrote :). It's a shame there doesn't seem to be more out there in terms of software for this thing. I have enough documentation for the hardware to make it seem possible to port NetBSD to it, but that would also require building an entire toolchain for the CPU and, well, if I had that kind of time... Now I just need to fix the power supply... > >> I'll add that I'm looking for an external SMD cabinet and cabling so >> that I >> can image the original SMD disk that was in the Ridge when I got it > > Do you know the history of this particular system? I'd say it's > definitely worth doing, just for whatever software and data (which > might tell some sort of "story") is on the drive. It has a Ridge asset tag, and I was told that it was used internally for testing database software. That may be what the Fujitsu Eagle in the second cabinet was for; the drive is currently inoperable (does not spin up) and it's really a two-person job to even move it around to debug so that's going to have to wait for a rainy day or three... - Josh > > cheers > > Jules > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 29 20:53:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 18:53:14 -0700 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <5518A180.1060307@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> <55183650.10703@sydex.com> <5518A180.1060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5518AC8A.1030203@sydex.com> On 03/29/2015 06:06 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's a rebadged PDP-8/L from late 1969. The guy I got it from says it > was used until the mid-2000s for creating paper tapes that drove CNC > machines. It came with an ASR-33 teletype, its only peripheral, so I > assume the ASR was used for punching the tapes. > > After a few small repairs it's running fine, I still need to get the > ASR-33 working properly (still having trouble with the reader-run > control, and everything needs to be cleaned.) Grease---wonderful :) Looks like fun when you get it all ticking over. My last run-in with Houdaille Strippit was for Great Dane Trailers--they had some sort of 8-bit CP/M controller interfaced to the punch via RS-232. They wanted to move to a PC platform and use their current software, so I rigged up an emulator with an emulation for the UART they were using. They were happy with the result. Old CNC iron is a lot of fun. I've supplied replacement drives for more EDM gear than I can remember. The only problem is that I keep getting promises for 'artwork" from these guys and they never get around do it... :( --Chuck From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 22:12:47 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:12:47 -0400 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <551853F9.4090803@att.net> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <551853F9.4090803@att.net> Message-ID: hahaha. windows is hilarious. On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 3:35 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 3/27/2015 9:47 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: >> >> >>> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an >>> hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? >>> Has anyone done it? >>> Any pointers (drivers etc)? >>> >>> >> I believe they existed, long ago. USB1 ones were terribly terribly >> slow. By the USB2 era, SCSI was disappearing, but they might exist. >> USB3, forget it. >> >> But I suspect that a device that old (we're talking >> turn-of-the-century) won't have drivers for Win7. You *might* have a >> chance of getting it working on 32-bit Win7. >> >> >> E.g. >> >> http://www.adaptec.com/en-us/support/_eol/usb_scsi/usb2xchange/ >> >> http://www.synchrotech.com/product-usb/usb2-uscsi-conv_01.html >> >> Note the supported OSes. >> >> This looks more promising... >> >> http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/U2SCX.html >> >> >> > wow! after noting the "discontinued" label at the Ratoc homepage, I > looked at Epay... were they always *that* expensive? > > Steve > From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Mar 29 23:23:47 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:47 -0700 Subject: Data Communications Pac for the HP 83/85 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24EDE0B4FBC54BF4A394D151248918E9@workshop> Does anyone have a copy of the Data Communications Pac for the HP 83/85? It's a rather well done combo BASIC/Assembly package that turns your HP 85 into a terminal emulator (Jay alerted me to it). This HP Computer Museum link claims this is it: http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=9 But when you download and extract the linked image it is actually the HP 86/87 version. I haven't been able to locate the HP 83/85 version of that PAC. Marc From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 30 00:17:44 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 00:17:44 -0500 Subject: Ridge 32/330 up and running! In-Reply-To: <55189E9F.4030303@gmail.com> References: <55178AC9.20500@gmail.com> <55182CE3.9040202@pico-systems.com> <55189E9F.4030303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5518DC78.6040105@pico-systems.com> On 03/29/2015 07:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Wow, that is seriously cool! Sounds like something you > need to finish up one of these days :). > For the reasons I abandoned the project in about 1982, I am afraid it will stay abandoned. I did get it working, but it is just a bare 32-bit bit slice engine, with 1K 96-bit words of control store and 56 32-bit registers. It ran at 8 MHz for 2-register operations, but could also do 3-register at 6 MHz. It was controlled by an S-100 Z-80 system that I no longer have, although it basically was similar to a parallel port, so could be hooked to a PC parallel port fairly easily. I needed to add in some more logic to do 256-way branches from the op-code, and or-in register fields from the instruction register. I needed to define a system bus and build a bus interface, and them build a few simple peripherals. I already had a SASI-bus hard drive on the S-100 CP/M system, so I could have built a controller for that pretty easily. Then a COM controller. I had planned on making a stripped-down micro-controller for most peripheral controllers, it would have been about 20 chips, with 8-bit data path and 16-bits of EPROM for firmware. Probably could have run at 4 MHz or so. THEN, the REAL reason I let this drop, is I would need an OS for a seriously oddball machine. Slightly enhanced 360 instruction set, but a PDP-11 style I/O architecture. I could build my own OS, but it would likely not be much better than CP/M, although multiprogramming would be nice. Then, how about compilers? I recently figured out I probably could have stolen OS/360 compilers without much trouble, but even getting those working would take a LOT of work to understand the various library routines they used and providing wrappers so the compilers thought they were in an OS/360 environment. Geez, a LOT of work! This would have been an AWESOME home system in 1984 or so, but would be just a ridiculous conversation piece, now. I cloned a Nat. Semi. 32016 system, and used that for a while, but it was glacially slow! Then, I got a uVAX at home, and ran it for 21 years. I still have the CPU, but mostly gave away the peripheral boards. Jon From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Mon Mar 30 00:47:26 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 05:47:26 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working with a few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my testing that I have good packs, ones that read out almost the same every time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in different states every time I read them. I've left write support untested until I can solve this problem. Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had slightly different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust more of my DPLL parameters dynamically to deal with that (something I'd rather avoid). Of course, most of these packs haven't been put into a drive since the mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going on. As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives than I do, my questions are: - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their RL02K packs? - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are rewritten with ?fresh? data? - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various computers/RL-02 controllers? Thanks, Christopher From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 30 00:53:25 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 06:53:25 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09b501d06aad$d64b7420$82e25c60$@ntlworld.com> It has been claimed, so it is going to a good home. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King > Sent: 30 March 2015 01:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK > > I have a running 4000/300, and these are a very nice machine - it's my usual > go-to VMS box. I hope someone picks it up and gives it some TLC! > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jarratt RMA > wrote: > > > I have a VAX 4000-300 that I want to pass on as I don't have room for it. > > It is in a BA440 enclosure (marked VAX 4000-400). The CPU board had a > > couple of problems, the levers that are used to push it into the slot > > have been broken, however it will push into the slot OK and work. The > > onboard Ethernet (SGEC) is also not working, but I have included a > > DESQA so you can network it. It has 64MB of memory (2x 32MB). It also has a > CXY08 board. > > > > It does not have any disks because I want to keep the few DSSI disks I > > have, however I will include two DSSI covers. You can still boot it as > > a satellite of course. In fact I was toying with the idea of putting a > > Raspberry Pi inside the enclosure with a crossover LAN cable and > > running if off SIMH on that. > > > > It is free, however I would appreciate a small donation, as it has > > cost me money to collect it to save it from being dumped. > > > > It is in the UK, in South Manchester. Although I am currently working > > a lot in Coventry so could bring it to that area. I will also be at > > DEC Legacy in Windermere 11-12 April, although I would prefer to leave > > room in my car for the machines I want to exhibit, if possible. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value > Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 01:46:56 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 01:46:56 -0500 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: Were all of the packs written on systems with the same word length? If come were written on a PDP8-A, You might get garbage reading them on a PDP11. On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Christopher Parish < christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com> wrote: > I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working with a > few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my testing that I > have good packs, ones that read out almost the same every time, and bad > packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in different states every time I > read them. I've left write support untested until I can solve this problem. > > Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had slightly > different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust more of my DPLL > parameters dynamically to deal with that (something I'd rather avoid). Of > course, most of these packs haven't been put into a drive since the > mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going on. > > As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives than I > do, my questions are: > > - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their RL02K > packs? > > - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are > rewritten with ?fresh? data? > > - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various > computers/RL-02 controllers? > > Thanks, > Christopher From simski at dds.nl Mon Mar 30 02:08:06 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (Simon Claessen) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 09:08:06 +0200 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 troubleshooting advice In-Reply-To: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> References: <5514E487.70702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5518F656.4060007@dds.nl> we have a working 4002a in our museum and I always let it warm up with a completely illuminated screen for a minute or 5 before clearing the tube for the first time. that seems to do the trick. On 27-03-15 06:03, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a Tektronix 4014-1 terminal. It's in pretty good shape, nice > and clean and it's in nearly-working condition except that the storage > behavior isn't quite right. > > On power-up, write-through doesn't. (That is, characters don't get > stored to the tube.) Clearing the display via the RESET/PAGE key clears > a roughly elliptical region in the center of the display but leaves the > outer edges a mess. The cleared region stores characters properly. You > can see the overall effect here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tek4014/clear.jpg > > After a 2-3 minutes of warming up the area cleared by RESET/PAGE > increases. I haven't run the terminal long enough to see if it > eventually completely erases the screen (while the power supply appears > to be within tolerances, I still need to rebuild/reform it so I'm not > going to run it too long yet). > > So far everything else seems to be functioning properly, the cursor > appears properly (and does not write through), input is accepted from > the keyboard, etc. I've been reading through the service manual on > Bitsavers and it describes a very in-depth alignment procedure which I'm > prepared to go through (once I've got the power supplies rebuilt) but I > thought I'd ask here if this problem rings any bells and if there's > anything I should immediately suspect or adjust. You guys know > everything :). > > Thanks as always for the advice, > Josh > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 30 04:26:43 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:26:43 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <551916D3.3010305@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-30 08:46, Paul Anderson wrote: > Were all of the packs written on systems with the same word length? If come > were written on a PDP8-A, You might get garbage reading them on a PDP11. For some definition of garbage, sure. But it would be the same garbage every time. The RL02 pack will use the same physical format no matter if used on a PDP-8 or PDP-11. Johnny > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 12:47 AM, Christopher Parish < > christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com> wrote: > >> I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working with a >> few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my testing that I >> have good packs, ones that read out almost the same every time, and bad >> packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in different states every time I >> read them. I've left write support untested until I can solve this problem. >> >> Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had slightly >> different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust more of my DPLL >> parameters dynamically to deal with that (something I'd rather avoid). Of >> course, most of these packs haven't been put into a drive since the >> mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going on. >> >> As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives than I >> do, my questions are: >> >> - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their RL02K >> packs? >> >> - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are >> rewritten with ?fresh? data? >> >> - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various >> computers/RL-02 controllers? >> >> Thanks, >> Christopher -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 30 04:28:32 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:28:32 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-30 07:47, Christopher Parish wrote: > I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working with a few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my testing that I have good packs, ones that read out almost the same every time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in different states every time I read them. I've left write support untested until I can solve this problem. > > Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had slightly different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust more of my DPLL parameters dynamically to deal with that (something I'd rather avoid). Of course, most of these packs haven't been put into a drive since the mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going on. > > As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives than I do, my questions are: > > - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their RL02K packs? I have not had any problems with long term reliability. I have packs that are 20 years old that read just fine. > - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are rewritten with ?fresh? data? No. > - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various computers/RL-02 controllers? No. I suspect you have some issues with your controller, and I wouldn't think it was timing, but I really don't know enough at this point to make any smart comments. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 30 05:36:28 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:36:28 +0100 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5519272C.5060402@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/03/2015 10:28, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-30 07:47, Christopher Parish wrote: >> I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working >> with a few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my >> testing that I have good packs, ones that read out almost the same >> every time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in >> different states every time I read them. > I have not had any problems with long term reliability. I have packs > that are 20 years old that read just fine. I've got some with 35-year old data, written around 1980, that are fine. > I suspect you have some issues with your controller, and I wouldn't > think it was timing, but I really don't know enough at this point to > make any smart comments. Christopher, have you tried more than one drive? I have a problem with one particular pack I was trying to make bootable. It shows no bad blocks but after successfully SYSGENning a new RT-11 system, any attempt to make it bootable on Unit 1 failed; it was fine on Unit 0, and still fine on that unit (what was Unit 0) if the unit select plugs were swapped to operate it as Unit 1. The drive passes all the diagnostics except seek timing using the Oscillating Seek test. It looks like a DC servo problem in the drive, but I'll know for sure later today or tomorrow when I've done some more work on it. You could also have damaged packs. I have one that is OK on the low numbered tracks yet unreliable on the later ones, and I wasn't surprised to find it has visible damage near the centre. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 30 07:53:46 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 07:53:46 -0500 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <551360F8.7070108@btinternet.com> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <551360F8.7070108@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <001a01d06ae8$8ff0e330$afd2a990$@classiccmp.org> FYI - I forgot to post; this deal has been claimed; it was passed on to the first person that replied off-list. Hopefully that person can consummate the deal and will post back to the list to let us know the real scoop on what the guy has. Best, J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:29 PM To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Equipment Available I don't think anybody who had worked for DEC would confuse an 11/23 with a microvax. The reference to RX01's also seems a little odd. Testing silicon could be a reference to IC's or the large crystals drawn from the melt. As to being used in house in the UK. Both plants (Ayr and Galway) were F,A and T plants Boards and enclosures came in already built and tested. They would plug the systems together to suit the customers configureation. If a board failed it would be sent to Hoofdorf in Holland where they had a board level repair facility. This was mainly for field service swop outs but they did handle F,A and T failures. Rod On 26/03/2015 00:46, Mouse wrote: >> Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. [...] > I offer for your collective consideration my guess that it's a case of > someone mistaking the label on a panel for the device inside, and the > system, whatever it is, has acquired mixed labeling. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 30 10:20:01 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 10:20:01 -0500 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> > On 2015-03-30 07:47, Christopher Parish wrote: >> I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller >> mostly working with a few residual gremlins. >> Specifically, I've noticed from my testing that I have >> good packs, ones that read out almost the same every >> time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be >> in different states every time I read them. I've left >> write support untested until I can solve this problem. >> Hmm, one comment is there will be erase glitches between sector ID blocks and data blocks, where the erase and write heads were turned on and off. If you don't have logic to adequately ignore those bursts, it will foul up everything. Most likely different vintage controllers may have some difference in how big those bursts of noise are. Packs that were written on heavily, or written on by different drives, may have more complicated patterns of these bursts. Jon From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Mar 30 10:43:07 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 08:43:07 -0700 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <20150330084307.3af1ea40@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 05:47:26 +0000 Christopher Parish wrote: > I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working > with a few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my > testing that I have good packs, ones that read out almost the same > every time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in > different states every time I read them. I've left write support > untested until I can solve this problem. > > Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had > slightly different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust > more of my DPLL parameters dynamically to deal with that (something > I'd rather avoid). Of course, most of these packs haven't been put > into a drive since the mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going > on. > > As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives > than I do, my questions are: > > - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their > RL02K packs?1 I've found the reliability of RL01s and RL02s to be excellent. I have (3) RL02's drives I use regularly with about (30) different cartridges. Over the years I have rarely had problems reading/writing packs between drives. > - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are > rewritten with ?fresh? data? I have had packs on rare occasions which when I first obtained them had a few records which were unreadable - and a clean reformat made them 100% error free. After doing so, the packs will run reliably for years. > - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various > computers/RL-02 controllers? No. Regards, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chrise at pobox.com Mon Mar 30 11:07:23 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:07:23 -0500 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <20150330084307.3af1ea40@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <20150330084307.3af1ea40@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <20150330160723.GH12155@n0jcf.net> Is an unmodified RL02 drive involved in this process or have you somehow modified a drive and attached the USB interface to the guts? In an unmodified drive, you can adjust the read gain (it's part of the tuneup/calibration process) and I found that after doing this adjustment and even increasing the gain slightly beyond what the spec called out, I was able to turn suspect or unreliable packs to reliable ones. I think you can encounter varying read levels from the packs as a function of the drives they were written on and maybe even degradation in signal level over time. A slight "tweak" to your read gain can make up for this, that is, if you still have the read amplifier circuit in the drive :-) Chris On Monday (03/30/2015 at 08:43AM -0700), Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 05:47:26 +0000 > Christopher Parish wrote: > > > I've gotten my RL-02 -> USB Mass Storage controller mostly working > > with a few residual gremlins. Specifically, I've noticed from my > > testing that I have good packs, ones that read out almost the same > > every time, and bad packs, ones where half the bits seem to be in > > different states every time I read them. I've left write support > > untested until I can solve this problem. > > > > Right now, my working theory is that different controllers had > > slightly different timing characteristics, and I may need to adjust > > more of my DPLL parameters dynamically to deal with that (something > > I'd rather avoid). Of course, most of these packs haven't been put > > into a drive since the mid-80s, and there could be some bit rot going > > on. > > > > As many of you have much more experience dealing with these drives > > than I do, my questions are: > > > > - What type of long term reliability have people noticed from their > > RL02K packs?1 > > I've found the reliability of RL01s and RL02s to be excellent. I have > (3) RL02's drives I use regularly with about (30) different cartridges. > Over the years I have rarely had problems reading/writing packs between > drives. > > > - Is garbage data sometimes normal for certain packs until they are > > rewritten with ?fresh? data? > > I have had packs on rare occasions which when I first obtained them had > a few records which were unreadable - and a clean reformat made them > 100% error free. After doing so, the packs will run reliably for years. > > > - Has anyone noticed pack compatibility problems between various > > computers/RL-02 controllers? > > No. > > Regards, > Lyle > -- > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- Chris Elmquist From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 30 11:42:10 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:42:10 +0100 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: <001a01d06ae8$8ff0e330$afd2a990$@classiccmp.org> References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <551360F8.7070108@btinternet.com> <001a01d06ae8$8ff0e330$afd2a990$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Just out of interest, did you hear where it is in the UK? Regards Rob On 30 March 2015 at 13:53, Jay West wrote: > FYI - I forgot to post; this deal has been claimed; it was passed on to the > first person that replied off-list. Hopefully that person can consummate > the > deal and will post back to the list to let us know the real scoop on what > the guy has. > > Best, > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:29 PM > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: Re: Equipment Available > > I don't think anybody who had worked for DEC would confuse an 11/23 with a > microvax. > The reference to RX01's also seems a little odd. > Testing silicon could be a reference to IC's or the large crystals drawn > from the melt. > > As to being used in house in the UK. Both plants (Ayr and Galway) were F,A > and T plants Boards and enclosures came in already built and tested. > They would plug the systems together to suit the customers configureation. > If a board failed it would be sent to Hoofdorf in Holland where they had a > board level repair facility. > This was mainly for field service swop outs but they did handle F,A and T > failures. > > Rod > > > On 26/03/2015 00:46, Mouse wrote: > >> Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. [...] > > I offer for your collective consideration my guess that it's a case of > > someone mistaking the label on a panel for the device inside, and the > > system, whatever it is, has acquired mixed labeling. > > > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Mar 30 12:23:10 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 12:23:10 -0500 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: At 11:47 AM 3/27/2015, Liam Proven wrote: >On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: >> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? Hasn't someone somewhere created an iSCSI stack that would let an old PC run Linux and use an old SCSI card (of appropriate interface) to talk to old hardware, but speak to the new PC and new software over the network? Is the end-goal running 'mt' and 'tar' within Cygwin under Windows? If the goal requires talking to the Windows machine's filesystem, aren't there lots of ways to solve that from an old Linux machine? This topic was covered in July 2014 and December 2012 if you check the archives. - John From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Mar 30 13:07:48 2015 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:07:48 +0000 Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB7456E3C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> At first I thought this was an April Fools prank pulled a day early, then I went and checked and found out that because 2015 is a leap year, March only had 29 days instead of the usual 31. Tim. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 13:14:02 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:14:02 -0400 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Mar 30, 2015, at 1:23 PM, John Foust wrote: > > At 11:47 AM 3/27/2015, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: >>> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? > > Hasn't someone somewhere created an iSCSI stack that would let > an old PC run Linux and use an old SCSI card (of appropriate > interface) to talk to old hardware, but speak to the > new PC and new software over the network? I think iSCSI target support is now a standard Linux iSCSI feature. If not standard, at least reasonably mainstream. I haven?t tried it, but I see plenty of references to it on the Linux iSCSI mailing list. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Mar 30 10:14:48 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:14:48 -0400 Subject: WTB: small QBus backplane, PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 Message-ID: <55196868.4030909@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, Just a random couple of requests -- for a while I've been looking for a replacement HP Apollo 735/125 PSU (pic attached). Or alternatively, a schematic for this one so I can get an expert to repair it :) Also - for testing QBus cards - I'm interested in a small standalone backplane that I can power independently. Anyone have something they want to get rid of? (Pref North America for shipping reasons :) Thanks --Toby From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Mar 30 13:28:55 2015 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:28:55 +0000 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <20150330173116.0DD562073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.0DD562073E94@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A057378E865@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I was exploring the idea of doing it without requiring an old PC w/SCSI card. -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:23 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: USB --> SCSI At 11:47 AM 3/27/2015, Liam Proven wrote: >On 27 March 2015 at 17:36, Bob Brown wrote: >> Does anyone know if a usb --> scsi adapter might allow me to connect an hp 9-track tape drive (7980s) to a computer running windows-7? Hasn't someone somewhere created an iSCSI stack that would let an old PC run Linux and use an old SCSI card (of appropriate interface) to talk to old hardware, but speak to the new PC and new software over the network? Is the end-goal running 'mt' and 'tar' within Cygwin under Windows? If the goal requires talking to the Windows machine's filesystem, aren't there lots of ways to solve that from an old Linux machine? This topic was covered in July 2014 and December 2012 if you check the archives. - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 30 13:29:33 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:29:33 -0500 Subject: Equipment Available In-Reply-To: References: <001e01d06738$f7e628f0$e7b27ad0$@classiccmp.org> <015501d0674f$bb91b470$32b51d50$@gmail.com> <000001d06756$f0c057d0$d2410770$@classiccmp.org> <201503260046.UAA26539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <551360F8.7070108@btinternet.com> <001a01d06ae8$8ff0e330$afd2a990$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d06b17$786c07b0$69441710$@classiccmp.org> No, the original email I got from the owner just said "UK". I have passed the deal on to an active listmember to follow up on, so he will probably post here when he acquires the gear and let us know the details. I'm curious myself! J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt RMA Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 11:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Equipment Available Just out of interest, did you hear where it is in the UK? Regards Rob On 30 March 2015 at 13:53, Jay West wrote: > FYI - I forgot to post; this deal has been claimed; it was passed on > to the first person that replied off-list. Hopefully that person can > consummate the deal and will post back to the list to let us know the > real scoop on what the guy has. > > Best, > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod > Smallwood > Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 8:29 PM > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Equipment Available > > I don't think anybody who had worked for DEC would confuse an 11/23 > with a microvax. > The reference to RX01's also seems a little odd. > Testing silicon could be a reference to IC's or the large crystals > drawn from the melt. > > As to being used in house in the UK. Both plants (Ayr and Galway) were > F,A and T plants Boards and enclosures came in already built and tested. > They would plug the systems together to suit the customers configureation. > If a board failed it would be sent to Hoofdorf in Holland where they > had a board level repair facility. > This was mainly for field service swop outs but they did handle F,A > and T failures. > > Rod > > > On 26/03/2015 00:46, Mouse wrote: > >> Yes, I am not quite sure what this machine is either. [...] > > I offer for your collective consideration my guess that it's a case > > of someone mistaking the label on a panel for the device inside, and > > the system, whatever it is, has acquired mixed labeling. > > > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > > \ / Ribbon Campaign > > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 13:35:20 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 13:35:20 -0500 Subject: What kind of adhesive for floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: <550D13B1.7040808@t-online.de> <20150321032904.477e9cd4@asrock.bcwi.net> <2B73522E-5FB8-4A03-892F-FED27131BCB6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 12:42 AM, tony duell wrote: > What is the make and model of the drive? > > It is a Newtronics mechanism from a Commodore 128D. > Are you sure it needs to be glued? On every drive I've worked on the band > is kept under tension by a > spring in the head carrage (maybe a leaf spring on the end), the ends of > the band are fixed by hooks or > screws. There may have been some glue originally to keep it in place > during american football/shipping, > but it isn't necessary IMHO. I've rebuilt a fair number of positioners and > never put any glue on them. > Yes, that appears to be the case here as well. This one doesn't have screws but rather two plastic posts that fit into the perforated holes in the band. Upon further inspection it appears that there is no play fore/aft which is what I was more concerned about vs the band coming off completely. Thanks for all the responses. It does appear to be some sort of fairly brittle epoxy. I think I may either put a dab of my wife's nail polish on them, or just leave them be. :) Geoff From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Mar 30 14:10:09 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: small QBus backplane, PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <55196868.4030909@telegraphics.com.au> References: <55196868.4030909@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCA8F7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Toby Thain Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:15 AM > for a while I've been looking for a > replacement HP Apollo 735/125 PSU > for testing QBus cards - I'm interested in a small standalone > backplane that I can power independently. OK, when I saw the subject line, I immediately wondered how the devil you were going to put a Qbus backplane into a 735. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 15:03:10 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:03:10 -0500 Subject: WTB: small QBus backplane, PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 In-Reply-To: <55196868.4030909@telegraphics.com.au> References: <55196868.4030909@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Q-bus 4 X 4 or 4 X 9? I know I have a bunch of 9s, and mabe a few 4s. I just got more shelves up yesterday and have kids coming over after school to sort boards. I might take a few days to find those backplanes. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 10:14 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > Just a random couple of requests -- for a while I've been looking for a > replacement HP Apollo 735/125 PSU (pic attached). Or alternatively, a > schematic for this one so I can get an expert to repair it :) > > Also - for testing QBus cards - I'm interested in a small standalone > backplane that I can power independently. Anyone have something they want > to get rid of? > > (Pref North America for shipping reasons :) > > Thanks > --Toby > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Mar 30 16:03:47 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 14:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB7456E3C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB7456E3C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > At first I thought this was an April Fools prank pulled a day early, > then I went and checked and found out that because 2015 is a leap year, > March only had 29 days instead of the usual 31. But, because it is divisable by 403, April starts earlier. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 16:30:27 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 16:30:27 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> Message-ID: <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> On 03/29/2015 05:57 PM, David Williams wrote: > You should be able to power the machine up without drives or graphics > options. If no keyboard is detected, all console IO is directed to the > first serial port. ... and, we're up and running. No immediate problems, apart from a broken connector on the sled for the CDROM drive, which is really a non-issue right now as there's no CDROM drive in the machine anyway (and the disks have a viable OS). The High Impact board set has the optional 4MB of texture RAM, so I'll be looking for a copy of Quake 2 to run on it :-) It's got 384MB of RAM, which is likely a healthy amount; I think 512MB was the official max on these (and it sounds like they'd take a bit more with 128MB modules), but it already gets pretty toasty in there with the graphics options that it has. Oh, it turns out that it's an ex-Cray system. It looks like it's still got Cray-related data on there, but whether it's anything useful/interesting/non-sensitive etc. remains to be seen. cheers Jules From abs at absd.org Mon Mar 30 17:23:21 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:23:21 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 March 2015 at 22:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/29/2015 05:57 PM, David Williams wrote: >> >> You should be able to power the machine up without drives or graphics >> options. If no keyboard is detected, all console IO is directed to the >> first serial port. > > > ... and, we're up and running. No immediate problems, apart from a broken > connector on the sled for the CDROM drive, which is really a non-issue right > now as there's no CDROM drive in the machine anyway (and the disks have a > viable OS). > > The High Impact board set has the optional 4MB of texture RAM, so I'll be > looking for a copy of Quake 2 to run on it :-) It's got 384MB of RAM, which > is likely a healthy amount; I think 512MB was the official max on these (and > it sounds like they'd take a bit more with 128MB modules), but it already > gets pretty toasty in there with the graphics options that it has. > > Oh, it turns out that it's an ex-Cray system. It looks like it's still got > Cray-related data on there, but whether it's anything > useful/interesting/non-sensitive etc. remains to be seen. We had 640MB in quite a few R10k I2 boxes at Dreamworks. I seem to recall issues with the Fore systems ATM drivers beyond that. (Don't ask about Origin 2000 Fore ATM drivers and SGI 'lying sync' NFS servers... "For all your data loss needs...") From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Mar 30 17:54:37 2015 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 15:54:37 -0700 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5519D42D.2030805@crash.com> On 03/30/2015 02:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > The High Impact board set has the optional 4MB of texture RAM Nice! > It's got 384MB of RAM, which is likely a healthy amount; For retrocomputing tourism, that's plenty. IRIX has a typical 1990s RISC memory footprint, outside of memory hungry modeling/effects/video editing applications. > I think 512MB was the official max on these (and it sounds like they'd > take a bit more with 128MB modules) An Indigo2 with the older R4k CPU modules (IP22) will max out at 384MB, using 32MB fast page mode parity SIMMs. The R8k CPU systems (IP26) will max out at 640MB using 64MB SIMMs, and officially the R10k CPU modules (IP28) will get up to 768MB using the same 64MB SIMMs. But yes, using 128MB SIMMs you can get to a full gigabyte, as documented here by Ian Mapleson: http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/i2gigaram.html. General information about the I2 can be found here, including pointers for 128MB parts that should work in a 1GB configuration: http://nekochan.net/wiki/SGI_Indigo2 --S. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 17:55:16 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:55:16 -0500 Subject: F, L, and M Vax boards Message-ID: We just sorted and shelved the following boards, most of which I will never use. If you are interested in any or all, feel free to make an offer off list. There are a few non DEC ones I have to figure out yet, otherwise this should be most of them. If you need L boards not listed here, let me know. I have a friend who has some. Quantities available on most. Thanks, Paul F1002 F1003 F1004 F1005 F1006 F1007 F1008 F1009 F1010 F1013 F1021 L0007 L0008 L0104 L0107 L0108 L0109 L0115 L0217 L0225 M7463 M8238 M8286 M8287 M8288 M8289 M8373 X 14 M8574? I need to recheck part number on the last 2. M8576? From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Mon Mar 30 18:50:51 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:50:51 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>,<551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> >> Were all of the packs written on systems with the same word length? If come >> were written on a PDP8-A, You might get garbage reading them on a PDP11. > For some definition of garbage, sure. But it would be the same garbage every time. > Johnny That was my thought as well, even if I was dealing with 12-bit data word size packs, I should always get the same data every read out > Christopher, have you tried more than one drive? > Pete Yep. The effect seems somewhat random, which is why I suspect a problem with the controller, although I can't rule the drives out. > there will be erase glitches between sector ID blocks > and data blocks, where the erase and write heads were > turned on and off. > If you don't have logic to adequately ignore those bursts, > it will foul up everything. > Jon That's accounted for. After the header postamble, the controller goes back to re-synchronization mode, looking for the data preamble and ignoring the contents. > Is an unmodified RL02 drive involved in this process or have > you somehow modified a drive and attached the USB interface to > the guts? > Chris My controller connects to the main logic board of the RL02 where the 40 pin berg connectors normally attach. The RL02s are otherwise unmodified. As far as the overall setup, it's just the drive, the controller card, and a PC. Prototype one photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-5J_nrTP33ESDk2QlNYdWFjbXc/view I'm beginning to suspect I have two problems. Every once in a while (maybe once per 10MB), data is corrupted until the end of a sector, likely a timing glitch or phase problem in the sampling DPLL. This one doesn't happen all that often, and should be covered by the sector CRC and a re-read. Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. I command the drive to walk forward or back a single track, and the heads move but sometimes land on the same starting track. This results in duplicate data for the next 10kB or so, and is heavily pack dependent. Some packs don't exhibit it, others do. I imagine this is related to the drive/pack runout condition described in the manual. Until I figure out more, my plan is to add additional verification to the incoming data, checking the track it landed on and re-commanding the difference if necessary. Without a PDP-11 to checkout the drives and packs, it's no fun not having a known good configuration to start from. :( Christopher From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 30 18:57:18 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:57:18 -0400 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <>> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <7995B42C-C463-4801-9F0A-A980B2F97B6A@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2015, at 7:50 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > > ... > Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. I command the drive to walk forward or back a single track, and the heads move but sometimes land on the same starting track. This results in duplicate data for the next 10kB or so, and is heavily pack dependent. Some packs don't exhibit it, others do. I imagine this is related to the drive/pack runout condition described in the manual. Until I figure out more, my plan is to add additional verification to the incoming data, checking the track it landed on and re-commanding the difference if necessary. As I recall, RL01/02 have embedded servo (one of the first DEC drives to do so). That would suggest you have a marginal servo mechanism. As for wrong data, isn?t there a track (cylinder) number in the headers? I would expect there to be one, so a wrong seek should be detectable. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 19:32:46 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 18:32:46 -0600 Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB7456E3C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: Tim Shoppa wrote: > At first I thought this was an April Fools prank pulled a day early, then > I went and checked and found out that because 2015 is a leap year, March > only had 29 days instead of the usual 31. Fred Cisin wrote: > But, because it is divisable by 403, April starts earlier. That's all true, but irrelevant. Due to multiple scheduling conflicts, the Federal Holidays and Celebrations Administration officially postponed April Fool's Day of 2015 to July 2. The preliminary selection for the rescheduled date was July 1, but during the public comment period concerns were raised that having it the day after the leap second could result in some people celebrating it one second too soon. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Mar 30 20:26:21 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 01:26:21 +0000 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Long story short: It turns out that SAIL, the DEC-1080 running WAITS at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, did not use the MEIS (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem) for Ethernet connectivity, but rather a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently used to hook -11s to D-machines) which went into the front end 11/40 on the KL-10. So: Does anyone on the list have such a device, and are you willing to part with it? Or to loan it for reverse engineering? Or do you know someone who has one who does not read ClassicCmp? Please contact me off-list. I've directed Outlook to set the Reply-to: field, but who knows if it listens, or if the list software will leave it in place. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From isking at uw.edu Mon Mar 30 21:20:34 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 19:20:34 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK In-Reply-To: <09b501d06aad$d64b7420$82e25c60$@ntlworld.com> References: <09b501d06aad$d64b7420$82e25c60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Thanks for passing that along, Rob! Cheers -- Ian On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:53 PM, Robert Jarratt < robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: > It has been claimed, so it is going to a good home. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. > King > > Sent: 30 March 2015 01:45 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-300 Available in the UK > > > > I have a running 4000/300, and these are a very nice machine - it's my > usual > > go-to VMS box. I hope someone picks it up and gives it some TLC! > > > > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Jarratt RMA < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > > wrote: > > > > > I have a VAX 4000-300 that I want to pass on as I don't have room for > it. > > > It is in a BA440 enclosure (marked VAX 4000-400). The CPU board had a > > > couple of problems, the levers that are used to push it into the slot > > > have been broken, however it will push into the slot OK and work. The > > > onboard Ethernet (SGEC) is also not working, but I have included a > > > DESQA so you can network it. It has 64MB of memory (2x 32MB). It also > has a > > CXY08 board. > > > > > > It does not have any disks because I want to keep the few DSSI disks I > > > have, however I will include two DSSI covers. You can still boot it as > > > a satellite of course. In fact I was toying with the idea of putting a > > > Raspberry Pi inside the enclosure with a crossover LAN cable and > > > running if off SIMH on that. > > > > > > It is free, however I would appreciate a small donation, as it has > > > cost me money to collect it to save it from being dumped. > > > > > > It is in the UK, in South Manchester. Although I am currently working > > > a lot in Coventry so could bring it to that area. I will also be at > > > DEC Legacy in Windermere 11-12 April, although I would prefer to leave > > > room in my car for the machines I want to exhibit, if possible. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School > > > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value > > Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > University of Washington > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:16:26 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 22:16:26 -0500 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Hi Rich, I should have a DEC one, and possibly a few non DEC. Do you have any specific brand names or board numbers? Paul On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 8:26 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: > Long story short: It turns out that SAIL, the DEC-1080 running WAITS at > the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, did not use the MEIS > (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem) for Ethernet connectivity, but > rather > a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently used to hook -11s to D-machines) which > went into the front end 11/40 on the KL-10. > > So: Does anyone on the list have such a device, and are you willing to > part > with it? Or to loan it for reverse engineering? Or do you know someone > who > has one who does not read ClassicCmp? > > Please contact me off-list. I've directed Outlook to set the Reply-to: > field, > but who knows if it listens, or if the list software will leave it in > place. > > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Ave S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 30 22:35:01 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:35:01 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-31 01:50, Christopher Parish wrote: >>> Were all of the packs written on systems with the same word length? If come >>> were written on a PDP8-A, You might get garbage reading them on a PDP11. >> For some definition of garbage, sure. But it would be the same garbage every time. >> Johnny > > That was my thought as well, even if I was dealing with 12-bit data word size packs, I should always get the same data every read out Right. >> Christopher, have you tried more than one drive? >> Pete > > Yep. The effect seems somewhat random, which is why I suspect a problem with the controller, although I can't rule the drives out. Seems more likely to be the controller. But we shouldn't rule anything out. :-) [...] > Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. I command the drive to walk forward or back a single track, and the heads move but sometimes land on the same starting track. This results in duplicate data for the next 10kB or so, and is heavily pack dependent. Some packs don't exhibit it, others do. I imagine this is related to the drive/pack runout condition described in the manual. Until I figure out more, my plan is to add additional verification to the incoming data, checking the track it landed on and re-commanding the difference if necessary. > > Without a PDP-11 to checkout the drives and packs, it's no fun not having a known good configuration to start from. :( I assume you are aware of that any software driver for the RL drives needs to read the headers to verify that they are on the right track, after doing a head select (or rather a change in which head you have selected), and do a new seek if on the wrong track. Repeat until on the right track. Essentially, seeks on the RL drives are not reliable, and you must always first check that you are on the right track before doing anything else. I would almost suspect your controller is just fine in this aspect. (This is documented in manuals, if you read enough.) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Mar 30 22:41:20 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:41:20 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <7995B42C-C463-4801-9F0A-A980B2F97B6A@comcast.net> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <>> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <7995B42C-C463-4801-9F0A-A980B2F97B6A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <551A1760.7030307@update.uu.se> On 2015-03-31 01:57, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 30, 2015, at 7:50 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: >> >> ... >> Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. I command the drive to walk forward or back a single track, and the heads move but sometimes land on the same starting track. This results in duplicate data for the next 10kB or so, and is heavily pack dependent. Some packs don't exhibit it, others do. I imagine this is related to the drive/pack runout condition described in the manual. Until I figure out more, my plan is to add additional verification to the incoming data, checking the track it landed on and re-commanding the difference if necessary. > > As I recall, RL01/02 have embedded servo (one of the first DEC drives to do so). That would suggest you have a marginal servo mechanism. As for wrong data, isn?t there a track (cylinder) number in the headers? I would expect there to be one, so a wrong seek should be detectable. Right, right and right. Except I don't know if the servo mechanism necessarily is marginal. The RL drives are "funny" in that there aren't even any absolute seeks. When you seek on those drives you simply tell it "seek n tracks in or out". The value of "n" is something you need to calculate based on what your current track is, and what track you want to get to. And when the seek is done, you repeat if you detect that you are not on the right track. The drive itself have absolutely no checking if it got to the right track or not, since it don't even know what the "right" track is. And a switch of head select does an implicit seek to whatever track is closest to the other heads, which means a head switch can cause the drive to move to a different track. So you always need to do a seek cycle after a head switch. While disks would be formatted with the tracks on both side of the platter aligned, there is no guarantee that the heads in the drive are actually perfectly aligned, which is why you get the head movement on head switch. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From b4 at gewt.net Mon Mar 30 22:58:40 2015 From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Rich Alderson wrote: > with it? Or to loan it for reverse engineering? Or do you know someone who > has one who does not read ClassicCmp? > Keep me posted on this - I'm eagerly awaiting for simulation for one to make it in to SIMH. > Please contact me off-list. I've directed Outlook to set the Reply-to: field, > but who knows if it listens, or if the list software will leave it in place. > > > Thanks, > Rich > > -- Cory Smelosky http://gewt.net Personal stuff http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Mar 30 22:52:13 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:52:13 +1300 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <551A1760.7030307@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <7995B42C-C463-4801-9F0A-A980B2F97B6A@comcast.net> <551A1760.7030307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: That's a very interesting project. Do you have plans to make this thing available in some form once the bugs are out? It's high time someone collated all the 'new hardware' projects out there - this, Vince's Omnibus memory boards, the widget drive replacements for Lisa, Guy Sotomayor's stuff, all these things - should be a one-stop shop where info on all this stuff is held. Rich Alderson, I know you guys have done work towards plug-compatible pdp-10 memory & disk replacements, do you think that could ever be shared? I'd love to see a Massbus connector with a CF or SD card slot... :-) Maybe I'll have to take up the job of collating these projects :-) On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-03-31 01:57, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>> On Mar 30, 2015, at 7:50 PM, Christopher Parish >>> wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. I >>> command the drive to walk forward or back a single track, and the heads move >>> but sometimes land on the same starting track. This results in duplicate >>> data for the next 10kB or so, and is heavily pack dependent. Some packs >>> don't exhibit it, others do. I imagine this is related to the drive/pack >>> runout condition described in the manual. Until I figure out more, my plan >>> is to add additional verification to the incoming data, checking the track >>> it landed on and re-commanding the difference if necessary. >> >> >> As I recall, RL01/02 have embedded servo (one of the first DEC drives to >> do so). That would suggest you have a marginal servo mechanism. As for >> wrong data, isn?t there a track (cylinder) number in the headers? I would >> expect there to be one, so a wrong seek should be detectable. > > > Right, right and right. Except I don't know if the servo mechanism > necessarily is marginal. The RL drives are "funny" in that there aren't even > any absolute seeks. When you seek on those drives you simply tell it "seek n > tracks in or out". The value of "n" is something you need to calculate based > on what your current track is, and what track you want to get to. And when > the seek is done, you repeat if you detect that you are not on the right > track. The drive itself have absolutely no checking if it got to the right > track or not, since it don't even know what the "right" track is. > > And a switch of head select does an implicit seek to whatever track is > closest to the other heads, which means a head switch can cause the drive to > move to a different track. So you always need to do a seek cycle after a > head switch. > While disks would be formatted with the tracks on both side of the platter > aligned, there is no guarantee that the heads in the drive are actually > perfectly aligned, which is why you get the head movement on head switch. > > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Mar 30 20:50:33 2015 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 21:50:33 -0400 Subject: OT: 32-bit OS called MMYRTL Message-ID: All ? After a long time, I?m playing with this 1995-vintage DIY 32-bit OS called MMYRTL by Rich Burgess. Does anyone have any experience with running and building it? If so, could you ping me off-list. I have a quick question on it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Tue Mar 31 00:43:11 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:43:11 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> >> Second, I've noticed that the drive seems to mis-seek on occasion. >> [...] > I assume you are aware of that any software driver for the RL drives > needs to read the headers to verify that they are on the right track, > after doing a head select (or rather a change in which head you have > selected), and do a new seek if on the wrong track. Repeat until on the > right track. > > Essentially, seeks on the RL drives are not reliable, and you must > always first check that you are on the right track before doing anything > else. > > I would almost suspect your controller is just fine in this aspect. > (This is documented in manuals, if you read enough.) > Johnny oops... That makes me feel a lot better. I did design my controller to take the difference of the commanded track vs the observed track and send it to the drive, but I didn't know it was somewhat unreliable as to which track you will land on. That's consistent with most of the data "corruption" I've seen. Random tracks have duplicate data in them, but it's miraculously solved when the next track is addressed or when I move off of and return to that track. That's because my FPGA always uses the last observed header to do its track difference calculation, but it doesn't check that the resulting seek is executed by the drive correctly. The micro controller serving as the USB interface assumes that it will be returned data from the track it requested, which has proven to be false. Those references to square root generators and kick pulses in the RL02 design documents scared me a little and should have clued me in that this isn't 100% deterministic. Oh well. Regardless, thanks for the info! Christopher From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 31 01:05:47 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:05:47 +0200 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:23:21PM +0100, David Brownlee wrote: > > We had 640MB in quite a few R10k I2 boxes at Dreamworks. I seem to > recall issues with the Fore systems ATM drivers beyond that. (Don't > ask about Origin 2000 Fore ATM drivers and SGI 'lying sync' NFS > servers... "For all your data loss needs...") What about the Fore ATM drivers and NFS? ;) I'm hoping to get my Onyx2 rack set up this year. I'm hoping to keep my data. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 31 01:13:39 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:13:39 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <7995B42C-C463-4801-9F0A-A980B2F97B6A@comcast.net> <551A1760.7030307@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20150331061339.GD15638@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 04:52:13PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > That's a very interesting project. Do you have plans to make this > thing available in some form once the bugs are out? > > It's high time someone collated all the 'new hardware' projects out > there - this, Vince's Omnibus memory boards, the widget drive > replacements for Lisa, Guy Sotomayor's stuff, all these things - > should be a one-stop shop where info on all this stuff is held. Rich > Alderson, I know you guys have done work towards plug-compatible > pdp-10 memory & disk replacements, do you think that could ever be > shared? I'd love to see a Massbus connector with a CF or SD card > slot... :-) I second that, I'd want it for my 2020! It could be retrofitted into a terminator :) /P From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Tue Mar 31 01:34:48 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:34:48 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA87@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> > From: Mike Ross > That's a very interesting project. Do you have plans to make this > thing available in some form once the bugs are out? > [...] You bet. I've kept component availability, manufacturability, and cost in mind from the beginning, which is why I've gone with a custom board instead of a mess of expensive development kits. Plus, I love designing new hardware, so I'm always looking for excuses to do it. The controller will need to mature a little before I let it loose on the world though. Right now I have (mostly) working: Block level access to the packs via USB Mass Storage (i.e. dd if=/dev/sdX of=/home/user/rl02.img) SIMH image compatibility (attach rl0 /home/user/rl02.img) SIMH real-time drive access (attach rl0 /dev/sdX). Yes, you can attach a real RL02 to SIMH transparently on linux (since everything is a file, even devices). I'm not sure what it would take on Windows. Still to do: Add more drive status probing (so you don't have to restart the controller board (powered over USB) if turning off the drive or changing packs) Testing of write, allowing restoration of disk images or disk reformatting (FAT16 anyone?) (implemented, but untested until read problems are fixed) Design the final board to plug into the external berg connector (that one might be tricky) Integration of XXDP style RL02 diagnostics into the controller (but more friendly). Bug fixes and loads more pack/drive combination compatibility testing. Christopher From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 01:41:51 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2015 23:41:51 -0700 Subject: Data Communications Pac for the HP 83/85 (Marc Verdiell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03BC87F687B84DC2B9FB8898D7E1C767@workshop> Never mind, I asked for help in the series80 Yahoo group, and this is actually the right package. My problem came from elsewhere (issues in making an error-free 5.25 HP-formatted floppy, its fixed now). The disc image below has both the HP86/87 and the HP83/85 versions on it. Works great, now my HP85 can be a cute serial terminal. Thanks Jay W. for the pointer to the software package, I had been trying to do this for a while. Marc >From: "Marc Verdiell" >Does anyone have a copy of the Data Communications Pac for the HP 83/85? >It's a rather well done combo BASIC/Assembly package that turns your HP 85 >into a terminal emulator (Jay alerted me to it). This HP Computer Museum >link claims this is it: >http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?sw=9 >But when you download and extract the linked image it is actually the HP >86/87 version. I haven't been able to locate the HP 83/85 version of that >PAC. >Marc From abs at absd.org Tue Mar 31 03:40:14 2015 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:40:14 +0100 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 31 March 2015 at 07:05, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:23:21PM +0100, David Brownlee wrote: >> >> We had 640MB in quite a few R10k I2 boxes at Dreamworks. I seem to >> recall issues with the Fore systems ATM drivers beyond that. (Don't >> ask about Origin 2000 Fore ATM drivers and SGI 'lying sync' NFS >> servers... "For all your data loss needs...") > > What about the Fore ATM drivers and NFS? ;) > > I'm hoping to get my Onyx2 rack set up this year. I'm hoping to keep my > data. The Fore EISA drivers not that bad. The PCI ones, were... less stable. Of course the PCI based SGI machines came with Fast Ethernet or better, so it was less of an issue (except when you had a studio wide ATM network :) Regarding SGI NFS servers. Typically NFS runs synchronously, where the client keeps a copy of the written data until the NFS server reports it has hit persistent storage. Hence the fancy battery backed up PRESTOserve type hardware used to speed up servers. SGI took a different approach, they lied and reported the data as written to storage as soon as it hit RAM on the server. Unsurprisingly this led to significant performance wins. Also somewhat obvious was the effect of a server reboot due to buggy drivers to the couple of GB of unsynced data which clients believed had been written. Combine this with scene assets which are being constantly migrated around storage and to/from tape resulted in a fair amount of work needing to be redone. A certain degree of clown college was in effect... From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 06:08:48 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:08:48 -0500 Subject: Data Communications Pac for the HP 83/85 (Marc Verdiell) In-Reply-To: <03BC87F687B84DC2B9FB8898D7E1C767@workshop> References: <03BC87F687B84DC2B9FB8898D7E1C767@workshop> Message-ID: <001b01d06ba3$1028e060$307aa120$@classiccmp.org> Marc wrote... ---- Thanks Jay W. for the pointer to the software package, I had been trying to do this for a while. ---- Even though I have plenty of 262x and 264x terminals, for some reason I've got this desire to use the HP-85A as a console for my HP2000 rig :) That's why I've been poking at the -85A recently. Most of the commands and displays on the system console of the HP2K will work ok on a 32 character display but there are a few command outputs that would wrap around a lot. Why do I have this notion that before too long I'll be looking to sell my -85A and purchase an 87? Or maybe someone with an 87 is looking to trade.... :) Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 06:20:04 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion Message-ID: <001f01d06ba4$a3781970$ea684c50$@classiccmp.org> So the roller on my -85A tape drive is marginally ok, but finding the tapes for that which work reliably is not really an option. So I was going to attempt the conversion to make the drive use DC2000 tapes. Marc - thanks for the great video of this process at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IQKCiS0w2s The process basically involves making the capstan roller "taller". Marc's approach is to use a lathe and fabricate a taller capstan roller and he suggests using heat shrink tubing to make the capstan roller taller as an alternative. I do not have a lathe, so the first option is out. While the second option would work, according to the video it "just barely makes the capstan roller contact the bottom portion of the tape capstan wheel". That concerns me, as if it's "barely making contact" I'm concerned that over time this would wear the capstan roller motor shaft and perhaps wear down the wheel, not to mention potential vibration. So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan roller be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the capstan roller "taller"? J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 31 08:19:12 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 Message-ID: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rich Alderson > SAIL .. did not use the MEIS (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem) for > Ethernet connectivity, but rather a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently > used to hook -11s to D-machines) which went into the front end 11/40 on > the KL-10. If this is the card I'm thinking of (we got two as part of the Xerox donation of Altos, a Dover, etc to MIT, BITD), it's to a 3-MBit Experimental Ethernet, not to a 10-MBit Ethernet, and so won't be much use unless you have something else with a 3-MBit Ethernet (and of course you'd also need 3-MBit transceivers, etc, etc). And of courset those cards were made in very, very limited numbers; if any survive to this day, I will be absolutely astonished. If you have a pointer to the PDP-11 code, I can take a look at it and confirm if it's a 3-MBit card. (The hardware packet header format is completely different from that for a 10-MBit.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 31 08:37:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:37:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics Message-ID: <20150331133757.C0C2518C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Lyle Bickley > I have had packs on rare occasions which when I first obtained them had > a few records which were unreadable - and a clean reformat made them > 100% error free. Err, I thought RL02 packs came pre-formatted (at least, the low-level stuff like sector headers, etc), and could not be field re-formatted? Or are you simply talking of a high-level re-format (i.e. the file system), which might write all data blocks to zero or something, thereby getting rid of the un-readable contents of such blocks? > From: Mike Ross > It's high time someone collated all the 'new hardware' projects out > there ... should be a one-stop shop where info on all this stuff is > held. The obvious place to put it is on our Wiki, of course... (Hint, hint... :-) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 08:41:40 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:41:40 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <551AA414.9030204@bitsavers.org> On 3/31/15 6:19 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > And of courset those cards were made in very, very limited numbers; if any > survive to this day, I will be absolutely astonished. > I have several of them. Anyone still have Unibus Chaosnet cards? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 08:50:48 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:50:48 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <551AA638.5070405@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/15 6:26 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently used to hook -11s to D-machines) which > went into the front end 11/40 on the KL-10. > Forgot to pay attention to the date. There was a 10mb card Xerox made, the only place I ever saw one was in the guts of a high-end laser printer, don't know the model number. I didn't bother grabbing it at the time. There couldn't have been that many Xerox printers that had Unibus in them. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 31 09:23:47 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 Message-ID: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > I have several of them. Wow. I'm totally stunned! Do you have any 3-Mbit transceivers to go with them? If you (or anyone) need, I can provide old code for an IP/PUP router to connect a 3-Mbit Ethernet to a 10-Mbit (if you want to put, say, an Alto on the Internet - not sure if they ever did a 10-Mbit card for the Altos). It would need either a UNIBUS 11, or a QBUS 11 and a QBUS->UNIBUS converter. (The DEC one is UNIBUS->QBUS, so would not help us.) > Anyone still have Unibus Chaosnet cards? Another rara avis! (I don't remember if they ever made any QBUS ones.) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 10:01:46 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 08:01:46 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <551AB6DA.4090807@bitsavers.org> On 3/31/15 7:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > I have several of them. > > Wow. I'm totally stunned! Do you have any 3-Mbit transceivers to go with them? > yes, I have a box of several dozen. I've run a two node net w/o them just cross-connecting tx/rx > If you (or anyone) need, I can provide old code for an IP/PUP router to > connect a 3-Mbit Ethernet to a 10-Mbit (if you want to put, say, an Alto on > the Internet - not sure if they ever did a 10-Mbit card for the Altos). It > would need either a UNIBUS 11, or a QBUS 11 and a QBUS->UNIBUS converter. (The > DEC one is UNIBUS->QBUS, so would not help us.) > There never was a 10mb card. I had kept some Sun2 bits around to build a 3 to 10 bridge with a Sun 3mb card. I would be interested in the code for an 11. Somewhere, I might have enough of the Stanford code around to do it with a SUN CPU card. Of course, now you could do it all with an FPGA and embedded ethernet microcontroller. If we were to get an Alto running again at CHM, I'd like to get a simulated IFS going to Etherboot against. From microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:12:41 2015 From: microfilm at microfilm.kscoxmail.com (Shaun Halstead) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:12:41 -0500 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <551AA638.5070405@bitsavers.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <551AA638.5070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <551AB969.3080403@microfilm.kscoxmail.com> On 03/31/2015 08:50 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Forgot to pay attention to the date. There was a 10mb card Xerox made, the only > place I ever saw one was in the guts of a high-end laser printer, don't know the > model number. I didn't bother grabbing it at the time. There couldn't have been > that many Xerox printers that had Unibus in them. The Xerox 9700 was powered by a PDP 11/34 or 11/34a. The mini handled data input from the 9-track tape drive, 8" floppy, hard disk, and optional Xerox Ethernet and Channel (Bus & Tag) interfaces. Human interface was through an ADM3 terminal. They were rock solid, high throughput workhorses. Rated for 100 pages per minute (8.5x11" paper), they could run 23 hours a day, shutting down only for resupply. I still have almost all of the docs on our old 9700, and another list member has the computer itself (though it appears to have died somewhere along the line). The follow-on 4050/4090 models were powered by a J-11 (11/70 on a chip) and a custom backplane and card system. It came stock with dual MFM hard disks, 5.25" floppy drive, and 9T tape drive. Options included two additional hard disks, 8" floppy, 3.5" floppy (later), QIC tape, 3480/3490 tape drives, Bus & Tag interface, and Xerox Ethernet. Human interface was through an ADM11 terminal, often a Link brand multi-protocol unit. I still have several of these machines in my shop, though none in production. --Shaun From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 10:26:38 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:26:38 -0400 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <551AB6DA.4090807@bitsavers.org> References: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <551AB6DA.4090807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Somewhere, I might have enough of the Stanford code around to do it with > a SUN CPU card. I have some Sun single board computers in early nineties FORE Systems ASX boxes, should an effort ensue surrounding this. Would be happy to trade for 'normal' ethernet setups for my various qbus and unibus pdp11s. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 31 11:02:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9100B upgrade and case mod In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0BB7456E3C@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Mon, 30 Mar 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > That's all true, but irrelevant. Due to multiple scheduling conflicts, > the Federal Holidays and Celebrations Administration officially > postponed April Fool's Day of 2015 to July 2. The preliminary > selection for the rescheduled date was July 1, but during the public > comment period concerns were raised that having it the day after the > leap second could result in some people celebrating it one second too > soon. OK, but they are never going to get it right until they realize that the change to Daylight Saving Time has to be on April Fool's Day. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 31 11:16:25 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 Message-ID: <20150331161625.CF8A518C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > There was a 10mb card Xerox made [later] > There never was a 10mb card. ?? > I would be interested in the code for an 11. Alas, the CGW code online at MIT: http://web.mit.edu/afs/net/project/cgw/ doesn't contain the PDP-11 version (or the Experimental Ethernet drivers, etc). I have the hardcopy of the PDP-11 version, and somewhere on the MIT V6+ Unix tapes that I'm currently trying to excavate, there will be machine-readable, but I've been trying to get to those for some months now... too much else to do! :-( If you get to a point where you need it, let me know, and if I don't already have it done, I'll move it up the priority list. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 12:47:20 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 10:47:20 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <20150331161625.CF8A518C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331161625.CF8A518C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <551ADDA8.80005@bitsavers.org> On 3/31/15 9:16 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > There was a 10mb card Xerox made For the Unibus (for the 9700 printer) The Dolphin (1100) and Dicentra router were the only D machines that had both 3 and 10 Dandilion (8010/1108) and follow-ons were 10mb only > > [later] > > > There never was a 10mb card. > for the Alto, or the Dorado (1132), only 3mb From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 13:43:10 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:43:10 -0500 Subject: Identifying a magnetic recording head Message-ID: Any idea what this came out of? I was thinking some fixed head hard drive, but I'm not sure. It looks new. The coil resistance is about 4 ohms and from measuring it, seems to be center-tapped. http://imgur.com/a/mHZS4 Thanks, Kyle From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Mar 31 13:53:54 2015 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Identifying a magnetic recording head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Kyle Owen wrote: > Any idea what this came out of? I was thinking some fixed head hard drive, > but I'm not sure. It looks new. The coil resistance is about 4 ohms and > from measuring it, seems to be center-tapped. > > http://imgur.com/a/mHZS4 That's a head from an IBM drum, as used in the SAGE computer. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From sales at elecplus.com Tue Mar 31 13:55:16 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:55:16 -0500 Subject: Old ALR, Unisys, Burroughs equip Message-ID: <060001d06be4$3ab01c40$b01054c0$@com> I just got off the phone with a gent who has a 7,000 sq foot warehouse in NJ. He has old ALR, Unisys, and Burroughs servers, terminals, keyboards, and storage (9GB drives). If you are interested, send him an email at ehogan at unimetrix.com. His name is Ed Hogan. Cindy Croxton From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 31 14:11:53 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:11:53 +0000 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCB6DA@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:19 AM > If this is the card I'm thinking of (we got two as part of the Xerox donation > of Altos, a Dover, etc to MIT, BITD), it's to a 3-MBit Experimental Ethernet, > not to a 10-MBit Ethernet, and so won't be much use unless you have something > else with a 3-MBit Ethernet (and of course you'd also need 3-MBit > transceivers, etc, etc). I've been given further information from my WAITS advisory team. This is indeed the card you're thinking of. Like MIT and CMU, Stanford got a donation of a Dover printer, lots of Altos, and the 3Mbit card for the PDP-11. Stanford put theirs into SAIL and made WAITS talk to the Ethernet through the front end. When I went to work at Stanford LOTS in October, 1984, the campus network was still primarily 3Mbit PUP. I installed a 10Mbit MEIS into one of our DEC-20s as part of the beta for the updated monitor code sometime after that. > And of courset those cards were made in very, very limited numbers; if any > survive to this day, I will be absolutely astonished. So will I, but I have to ask. > If you have a pointer to the PDP-11 code, I can take a look at it and confirm > if it's a 3-MBit card. (The hardware packet header format is completely > different from that for a 10-MBit.) This has only just come up in the last 36 hours, so I don't have my hands on the code in question yet, but the rest of the evidence says that we don't need this corroboration. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 31 14:16:22 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:16:22 +0000 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <551AA414.9030204@bitsavers.org> References: <20150331131912.BD0DB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <551AA414.9030204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCB704@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> As it happens, we have one in the KS-10 which used to be MIT-AI. Once we have the system restored to fully running condition, we'll build a little Chaosnet to some Symbolics equipment here. (Obviously we'll run ITS on it.) Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:42 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 On 3/31/15 6:19 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > And of courset those cards were made in very, very limited numbers; if any > survive to this day, I will be absolutely astonished. > I have several of them. Anyone still have Unibus Chaosnet cards? From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 31 14:18:50 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:18:50 +0000 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150331142347.063BF18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCB72D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> We've been talking about how to put our Alto(s) on the net, with IFS running on TOPS-20. We'd be very interested. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 7:24 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 > From: Al Kossow > I have several of them. Wow. I'm totally stunned! Do you have any 3-Mbit transceivers to go with them? If you (or anyone) need, I can provide old code for an IP/PUP router to connect a 3-Mbit Ethernet to a 10-Mbit (if you want to put, say, an Alto on the Internet - not sure if they ever did a 10-Mbit card for the Altos). It would need either a UNIBUS 11, or a QBUS 11 and a QBUS->UNIBUS converter. (The DEC one is UNIBUS->QBUS, so would not help us.) > Anyone still have Unibus Chaosnet cards? Another rara avis! (I don't remember if they ever made any QBUS ones.) Noel From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 14:20:31 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:20:31 -0500 Subject: Identifying a magnetic recording head In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was wondering about that. It's been a long time and I might have slept since then. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Kyle Owen wrote: > > Any idea what this came out of? I was thinking some fixed head hard drive, >> but I'm not sure. It looks new. The coil resistance is about 4 ohms and >> from measuring it, seems to be center-tapped. >> >> http://imgur.com/a/mHZS4 >> > > That's a head from an IBM drum, as used in the SAGE computer. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com Tue Mar 31 14:20:39 2015 From: Wayne.Smith at warnerbros.com (Smith, Wayne) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:20:39 -0700 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 > From: "Jay West" > > So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan roller > be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the > capstan roller "taller"? I would try gluing an extender piece on the end of the existing capstan roller, perhaps using wood which is easy to shape. Once you wrap it with a piece or two of heat shrink tubing, I would think that it would all stay in place. From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 31 14:35:50 2015 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:35:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> Message-ID: <195086989.2788932.1427830550705.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I'm not good with mills and lathes, but here in Dallas, there is a local Makerspace that does have these tools, and people willing to teach neophytes how to use them. ?It may be worth checking to see if you have some such local resource. I've used a service called?Emachineshop.com?to make parts in the past, and while they are not exactly cheap, the prices are reasonable in quantities. ?They have a?piece of software that you can download, design the part, choose a material, click a button, and get a quote. ?Another click, a credit card payment, 2-3 weeks, and you have the part.? I'm sure there are other machine shops out there that would take a solidworks file. ?Perhaps someone with some Solidworks savvy could produce a design file, and we could organize a group buy? ?I could go for at least 10 parts. Dave On Tuesday, March 31, 2015 2:20 PM, "Smith, Wayne" wrote: > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 > From: "Jay West" > > So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan roller > be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the > capstan roller "taller"? I would try gluing an extender piece on the end of the existing capstan roller, perhaps using wood which is easy to shape.? Once you wrap it with a piece or two of heat shrink tubing, I would think that it would all stay in place. From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 14:40:03 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:40:03 -0500 Subject: More random identifying Message-ID: More computer-esque things looking to be identified. Some of it military, some of it not. What might the paper tape reader have come out of? The big circuit boards say "Harris" on them. http://imgur.com/a/S7dyo Thanks, Kyle From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Mar 31 15:00:36 2015 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:00:36 -0500 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 01:14 PM 3/30/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >I think iSCSI target support is now a standard Linux iSCSI feature. If not standard, at least reasonably mainstream. I haven???t tried it, but I see plenty of references to it on the Linux iSCSI mailing list. Are they running old tape devices on it? - John From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 31 15:38:48 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Smith, Wayne wrote: >> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 >> From: "Jay West" >> >> So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan roller >> be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for how to make the >> capstan roller "taller"? > > I would try gluing an extender piece on the end of the existing capstan roller, perhaps > using wood which is easy to shape. Once you wrap it with a piece or two of heat > shrink tubing, I would think that it would all stay in place. Jay, if you can get me the specs on the right size roller, I'd be happy to print you one to see if it would work. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 15:39:44 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:39:44 -0400 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <20150331201119.C2FD92073EA2@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> <20150331201119.C2FD92073EA2@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <726DAAAD-07DA-4517-992A-1794A02BF899@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:00 PM, John Foust wrote: > > At 01:14 PM 3/30/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> I think iSCSI target support is now a standard Linux iSCSI feature. If not standard, at least reasonably mainstream. I haven???t tried it, but I see plenty of references to it on the Linux iSCSI mailing list. > > Are they running old tape devices on it? Tape? Not that I know of. In principle iSCSI can handle tape, but I don?t know if it?s been done at all, never mind in Linux. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 15:49:52 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:49:52 +0100 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <726DAAAD-07DA-4517-992A-1794A02BF899@comcast.net> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> <20150331201119.C2FD92073EA2@huey.classiccmp.org> <726DAAAD-07DA-4517-992A-1794A02BF899@comcast.net> Message-ID: <023601d06bf4$3c938f00$b5baad00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 31 March 2015 21:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: USB --> SCSI > > > > On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:00 PM, John Foust wrote: > > > > At 01:14 PM 3/30/2015, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I think iSCSI target support is now a standard Linux iSCSI feature. If not > standard, at least reasonably mainstream. I haven???t tried it, but I see > plenty of references to it on the Linux iSCSI mailing list. > > > > Are they running old tape devices on it? > > Tape? Not that I know of. In principle iSCSI can handle tape, but I don?t > know if it?s been done at all, never mind in Linux. > > paul > How would you connect old tapes to iSCSI? There are modern tapes with Fibre SCSI interfaces but would you actually connect the thing up.... Dave From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 31 16:03:55 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:03:55 +0200 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> Message-ID: <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> You shouldn't under estimate the force on the capstan. I'm also not a fan of shrink tube, the it's to smooth and not durable. I've experimented a lot when figuring out how to make the QUICK40 modification (after I knew it was possible because Larry Afferton was selling QUICK 40 HP-85's). I found the best way to refurbish the rollers was using small rubber sleeves and grind them to the right size. The sleeves are glued to the capstan and have much more friction than shrink tubes. Which results in less jitter and a better and more constant tape transport. The exact measures of the capstan can be found at hp9845.net : http://hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/tapedrives/ -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Smith, Wayne > Verzonden: dinsdag 31 maart 2015 21:21 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: RE: HP-85A tape drive conversion > > > Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 > > From: "Jay West" > > > > So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan > > roller be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for > > how to make the capstan roller "taller"? > > I would try gluing an extender piece on the end of the existing capstan roller, > perhaps using wood which is easy to shape. Once you wrap it with a piece or > two of heat shrink tubing, I would think that it would all stay in place. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 31 16:05:05 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:05:05 +0200 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> Message-ID: <001f01d06bf6$5da81dd0$18f85970$@xs4all.nl> > > Jay, if you can get me the specs on the right size roller, I'd be happy to print you > one to see if it would work. > > g. > http://hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/tapedrives/ -Rik From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:16:17 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:16:17 -0700 Subject: EPROM image for CMD CDU-710/M or 710/TM? Message-ID: <551B0EA1.2000200@gmail.com> Hey all -- I'm looking for an image of the EPROM on the CMD CDU-710/M or /TM UNIBUS SCSI adapters. The 720s have been archived, but only the /T (tape only) variants are imaged for the 710... Anyone out there have one of these boards and be willing to dump the ROMs? Thanks in advance, Josh From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 16:16:38 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:16:38 -0500 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002e01d06bf7$faa64840$eff2d8c0$@classiccmp.org> When I get a "round-tuit", I'll check what the arrangement is for the 264X terminal built-in tape drive. Perhaps they used a similar mechanism to the HP-85A and it could work with dc2000 tapes (after mod) as well. J From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 08:10:33 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 09:10:33 -0400 Subject: OT: 32-bit OS called MMYRTL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Richard, Ah, I remember paging through that book about it, "Developing your own 32-bit Operating System". I'll never forget. I think that was the first book I had ever seen that discussed developing an operating system from the ground up and as a 12-year-old or whatever, I was intrigued. I don't own the title (yet?) and I've never tried to build or run MMURTL... you've probably seen the below URL but just in case: https://github.com/bproctor/MMURTL Best, Sean On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:50 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > All ? > > After a long time, I?m playing with this 1995-vintage DIY 32-bit OS called > MMYRTL by Rich Burgess. Does anyone have any experience with running and > building it? If so, could you ping me off-list. I have a quick question on > it. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 08:17:17 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:17:17 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <551A9E5D.8010404@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/15 6:26 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Long story short: It turns out that SAIL, the DEC-1080 running WAITS at > the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, did not use the MEIS > (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem) for Ethernet connectivity, but rather > a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently used to hook -11s to D-machines) which > went into the front end 11/40 on the KL-10. > > So: Does anyone on the list have such a device, and are you willing to part > with it? 3 or 10 megabit? I'm assuming 3 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 31 09:03:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 07:03:11 -0700 Subject: Wanted: PDP-11 Unibus Ethernet interface from Xerox, c. 1981 In-Reply-To: <551A9E5D.8010404@bitsavers.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01A9DCAE46@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <551A9E5D.8010404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <551AA91F.5040707@bitsavers.org> On 3/31/15 6:17 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/30/15 6:26 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Long story short: It turns out that SAIL, the DEC-1080 running WAITS at >> the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, did not use the MEIS >> (Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem) for Ethernet connectivity, but rather >> a Unibus card from Xerox (apparently used to hook -11s to D-machines) which >> went into the front end 11/40 on the KL-10. >> >> So: Does anyone on the list have such a device, and are you willing to part >> with it? > > 3 or 10 megabit? I'm assuming 3 > I just noticed I never uploaded the documents describing the 3mb card ca. 1979. Up now under xerox/ethernet_3mb (whenever the mirrors get around to grabbing them) I have the schematics somewhere, that would take more digging. From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 10:24:08 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 11:24:08 -0400 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I work in medium-scale HPC (~3-4K cores, ~8 petabytes online) and we do run NFS in async mode still to this day for performance's sake (of course, cognizant of the potential risk involved). Honestly, on Linux, our experience has not been bad. If we're talking about things SGI did that can be dicey, I would focus more on XFS :O I don't mean that as a burn to anyone involved; Dave Chinner and team does a good job with the resources they have and the Linux kernel they have to deal with and XFS does fly even if it is a little fragile sometimes... Always had good luck with it on IRIX at home... but my duty cycle at home is much, much, much lower than at work, LOL. I would love to get my hands on an EISA multimode OC-3... I have a ton of Fore PCA-200 cards stashed and I am still running OC-3 ATM in production at my home on a ForeRunner LE155 switch and it would be great fun to tie in one of my Indigo2s. Anyway, more on-topic, congratulations, Jules, that's a fine system you have found! My strongest Indigo2 is a bit of a Frankenstein :O Non-factory config... R10K at 175 Extreme in green skins, non-Impact PSU, 256 MB RAM and it runs IRIX 6.5.x very well; graphics performance would be horrible for anything textured but for regular interactive use, browsing the Web, running all the demos, it's plenty fast. I have a few more in my storage room; one of the more rare R8K systems, an R4K/250 system (which is also pretty quick) and another R4K system and a half in parts... I was obsessed with these things when I was in high school :O IMO, Indigo2 systems are great machines; I have found them to be very robust in the long-term although from my experience the Impact PSUs seem a bit more prone to failure than the non-Impact PSUs (the mode seems to be harmless to the rest of the system; it just one day decides it won't power on; reminiscent of how I've seen the Nidec supplies go on the Indys). Parts are pretty easy to find and fairly inexpensive as SGI equipment goes. If you want to know the specifics, you have probably found this already, but there are two SGI-specific commands you can run from IRIX, "hinv" and "gfxinfo" which will tell you what's there.. You can also run "hinv" from the ROM monitor. Have fun! Best, Sean On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:40 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 31 March 2015 at 07:05, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:23:21PM +0100, David Brownlee wrote: > >> > >> We had 640MB in quite a few R10k I2 boxes at Dreamworks. I seem to > >> recall issues with the Fore systems ATM drivers beyond that. (Don't > >> ask about Origin 2000 Fore ATM drivers and SGI 'lying sync' NFS > >> servers... "For all your data loss needs...") > > > > What about the Fore ATM drivers and NFS? ;) > > > > I'm hoping to get my Onyx2 rack set up this year. I'm hoping to keep my > > data. > > The Fore EISA drivers not that bad. The PCI ones, were... less stable. > Of course the PCI based SGI machines came with Fast Ethernet or > better, so it was less of an issue (except when you had a studio wide > ATM network :) > > Regarding SGI NFS servers. Typically NFS runs synchronously, where the > client keeps a copy of the written data until the NFS server reports > it has hit persistent storage. Hence the fancy battery backed up > PRESTOserve type hardware used to speed up servers. > > SGI took a different approach, they lied and reported the data as > written to storage as soon as it hit RAM on the server. Unsurprisingly > this led to significant performance wins. Also somewhat obvious was > the effect of a server reboot due to buggy drivers to the couple of GB > of unsynced data which clients believed had been written. Combine this > with scene assets which are being constantly migrated around storage > and to/from tape resulted in a fair amount of work needing to be > redone. > > A certain degree of clown college was in effect... > From ehogan at unimetrix.com Tue Mar 31 14:41:02 2015 From: ehogan at unimetrix.com (Ed Hogan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 12:41:02 -0700 Subject: Sperry MainFrame Liquid cooled memory card 1986 vintage Message-ID: Looking for offers on the subject item. Best regards, Ed Hogan Unimetrix Corporation 20371 Lake Forest Drive Suite A-7 Lake Forest, CA 92630 Phone: 949-215-2475 x101 Toll Free: 800-633-9955 x101 FAX: 949-215-2472 Email: ehogan at unimetrix.com Web: www.unimetrix.com THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 14:43:11 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 15:43:11 -0400 Subject: More random identifying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I can tell you the Harris boards didn't come out of a D1200 series switch; they're too small :O Best, Sean On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > More computer-esque things looking to be identified. Some of it military, > some of it not. > > What might the paper tape reader have come out of? > > The big circuit boards say "Harris" on them. > > http://imgur.com/a/S7dyo > > Thanks, > > Kyle > From ehogan at unimetrix.com Tue Mar 31 15:35:21 2015 From: ehogan at unimetrix.com (Ed Hogan) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 13:35:21 -0700 Subject: Burroughs keyboard Message-ID: <7D820669FEFF4093BA4C90F65FC6285C@ED> Have a Burroughs B25-K2I keyboard for sale. Best regards, Ed Hogan Unimetrix Corporation 20371 Lake Forest Drive Suite A-7 Lake Forest, CA 92630 Phone: 949-215-2475 x101 Toll Free: 800-633-9955 x101 FAX: 949-215-2472 Email: ehogan at unimetrix.com Web: www.unimetrix.com THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its attachments from all computers. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 16:32:27 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:32:27 -0500 Subject: keys for HP2100A/S Message-ID: <003301d06bfa$30527250$90f756f0$@classiccmp.org> Today I mailed off a couple HP 2100A/S front panel keys (they are the round tubular "security key" type) to a fellow listmember in need. I thought I had a whole box of them, but it turned out virtually all of those were DEC keys. So I had 3 copies of the key made today (two for the listmember, one extra for me). When I tested them before dropping them in the mail, 2 worked and 1 did not (of course, I sent off the 2 that worked to the listmember). Since I have to go back to the locksmith to get the 1 key redone, I thought I'd offer to get keys for the 2100A/S made for anyone that wants them. I guess it is possible that your 2100A/S may use a different key, but at least every 2100 I've come across uses the same key. The locksmith charges $8 per key, and figure $2 bucks for shipping. I'll probably head back to the locksmith Monday so if anyone is in need, let me know. Please note - the keys for HP 1000 aka 21MX M/E/F are completely different and not what I'm talking about here. Just the 2100A or 2100S. But I guess if anyone needs keys for those, I can get some made as well. If it's for a 1000 or MX key, let me know if it's a M series (dual edge key, switch has standby position) or E/F (single edge key, not a switch just a front door latch). Best, J From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 31 16:34:57 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 14:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <001f01d06bf6$5da81dd0$18f85970$@xs4all.nl> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001f01d06bf6$5da81dd0$18f85970$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Mar 2015, Rik Bos wrote: > >> >> Jay, if you can get me the specs on the right size roller, I'd be happy to > print you >> one to see if it would work. >> >> g. >> > http://hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/tapedrives/ I don't have any flexable filament, so that's not gonna work. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 16:37:49 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 16:37:49 -0500 Subject: SGI Origin side skins Message-ID: <551B13AD.8030401@gmail.com> Does anyone know how to remove the side skins on an SGI Origin (specifically a 2200 deskside cabinet). The manual mentions removal of the top and front, but says that the sides are more tricky and to contact SGI for the procedure. I'd like to remove them as there's some minor paint splatter on them, which would be much easier to deal with off the machine. I see there's a screw at the bottom of the machine on the rear edge (much like the one for the front which releases the front skin), but removing it doesn't seem to let the rear plastic molding drop in the same way, and I assume this needs to come off first. cheers Jules From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Mar 31 16:42:05 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:42:05 +0200 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <002e01d06bf7$faa64840$eff2d8c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> <002e01d06bf7$faa64840$eff2d8c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002801d06bfb$88b8a530$9a29ef90$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jay West > Verzonden: dinsdag 31 maart 2015 23:17 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP-85A tape drive conversion > > When I get a "round-tuit", I'll check what the arrangement is for the 264X > terminal built-in tape drive. Perhaps they used a similar mechanism to the HP- > 85A and it could work with dc2000 tapes (after mod) as well. > > J The drive mechanism is the same as the ones used in the HP 9825 / 15 / 31 / 35 and 9845 . But this type of drive has issues about the running off the tape every once in a while. Somehow the tape end detection not always detects the end of a DC2000 etc.. It suspect the tape controller hardware, but I didn't researched it so it's for the best an educated guess. The internal controllers of the HP 9845 and 35 have an internal tape counter which gives an error when the tape is too long, so you can't initialize DC2000 tapes on a 9845 and 35. I've modified the drives in my 264X terminal but got no further than a basic test run, because the DMA card of my terminal doesn't function right and I've a small shortage of time ;) The tape speed of those terminals as almost twice the speed of a HP-85.Could also be a problem because the DC2000 tapes are wider and should have more head friction. May be I should pull the thing out of storage and look if I can get it working. -Rik From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 17:09:39 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 17:09:39 -0500 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001f01d06bf6$5da81dd0$18f85970$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000e01d06bff$62712880$27537980$@classiccmp.org> Gene wrote... ---- I don't have any flexable filament, so that's not gonna work. :) ---- Gene, that may not be a problem. The existing roller is rubber around a metal shaft. The shaft is thicker at the top under the roller. So I suspect that if the existing rubber was removed, you printed a round solid cylinder that was the same diameter and could be glued on top of the existing thicker portion of the shaft, and then rubber or surgical tubing was put around both solid pieces together... that may just do the magic. FYI - in the how-to video that marc did, you can see the component as-is and what must be done. That would probably give you a few ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IQKCiS0w2s Also - rik, regarding the tape speed difference... the dc100 to dc2000 conversion that marc did (link above), he doesn't just increase the capstan roller height, he also adds a resistor to the tape board. I haven't seen schematics on the 85A drive yet, but perhaps this is to affect a slight speed change? J From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:23:27 2015 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 17:23:27 -0500 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <838E53AF-F1E5-4BB1-850F-D151CA7CF787@gmail.com> If the original dimensions can be ascertained, you might try JJ Short. They've done both a Flexowriter power roll and an IBM Executive platen for me with fresh rubber of the correct durometer. It's worth an inquiry, at least - Cory http://www.jjshort.com/index.php On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:03 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > You shouldn't under estimate the force on the capstan. > I'm also not a fan of shrink tube, the it's to smooth and not durable. > I've experimented a lot when figuring out how to make the QUICK40 > modification (after I knew it was possible because Larry Afferton was > selling QUICK 40 HP-85's). > I found the best way to refurbish the rollers was using small rubber sleeves > and grind them to the right size. The sleeves are glued to the capstan and > have much more friction than shrink tubes. Which results in less jitter and > a better and more constant tape transport. The exact measures of the capstan > can be found at hp9845.net : http://hp9845.net/9845/tutorials/tapedrives/ > > -Rik > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Smith, Wayne >> Verzonden: dinsdag 31 maart 2015 21:21 >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Onderwerp: RE: HP-85A tape drive conversion >> >>> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 06:20:04 -0500 >>> From: "Jay West" >>> >>> So. two questions: What SHOULD the outer diameter of a good capstan >>> roller be on that drive, and does anyone have other suggestions for >>> how to make the capstan roller "taller"? >> >> I would try gluing an extender piece on the end of the existing capstan > roller, >> perhaps using wood which is easy to shape. Once you wrap it with a piece > or >> two of heat shrink tubing, I would think that it would all stay in place. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 31 17:34:02 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 18:34:02 -0400 Subject: USB --> SCSI In-Reply-To: <023601d06bf4$3c938f00$b5baad00$@gmail.com> References: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0573789BBE@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <20150330173116.165812073EA1@huey.classiccmp.org> <20150331201119.C2FD92073EA2@huey.classiccmp.org> <726DAAAD-07DA-4517-992A-1794A02BF899@comcast.net> <023601d06bf4$3c938f00$b5baad00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:49 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> Koning >> Sent: 31 March 2015 21:40 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: USB --> SCSI >> >> >>> On Mar 31, 2015, at 4:00 PM, John Foust wrote: >>> >>> At 01:14 PM 3/30/2015, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> I think iSCSI target support is now a standard Linux iSCSI feature. If not >> standard, at least reasonably mainstream. I haven???t tried it, but I see >> plenty of references to it on the Linux iSCSI mailing list. >>> >>> Are they running old tape devices on it? >> >> Tape? Not that I know of. In principle iSCSI can handle tape, but I don?t >> know if it?s been done at all, never mind in Linux. >> >> paul >> > > > How would you connect old tapes to iSCSI? There are modern tapes with Fibre SCSI interfaces but would you actually connect the thing up.... > > Dave If you have an iSCSI target on an OS that takes the SCSI commands and converts them to device I/O calls for that OS, it ?should? just work. That?s no different from a storage device that speaks iSCSI out the front and has ATA (or SATA) disks. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 17:40:32 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 17:40:32 -0500 Subject: More random identifying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Well, I can tell you the Harris boards didn't come out of a D1200 series > switch; they're too small :O Heh, these are about as big as Data General NOVA boards, I'm estimating. Does anyone have any experience with the Harris H800 systems? That's my suspicion. Kyle From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 31 19:15:41 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:15:41 -0500 Subject: HP-85A tape drive conversion In-Reply-To: <002801d06bfb$88b8a530$9a29ef90$@xs4all.nl> References: <773D8E9A706AF44F872F03D21A5950C3010D0D147D37@WBWBURPEX7C1M1.amer.warnerbros.com> <001e01d06bf6$33fb04c0$9bf10e40$@xs4all.nl> <002e01d06bf7$faa64840$eff2d8c0$@classiccmp.org> <002801d06bfb$88b8a530$9a29ef90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000e01d06c10$fdcef620$f96ce260$@classiccmp.org> Rik wrote... ---- But this type of drive has issues about the running off the tape every once in a while. Somehow the tape end detection not always detects the end of a DC2000 etc.. It suspect the tape controller hardware, but I didn't researched it so it's for the best an educated guess. ---- A quick read through the assembler manual for the 85 throws up all kinds of cautions specifically about assembly code causing issues with the tape coming off the spool, seemed a known issue. Just saying - it may be a software issue not a hardware issue. J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 20:11:29 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:11:29 -0500 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> On 03/31/2015 10:24 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > Anyway, more on-topic, congratulations, Jules, that's a fine system you > have found! Indeed it is! Although there were Indys and O2's available as well, the Indigo2 just seemed like the more interesting of the three - and that was before I discovered that it was fitted with such a high spec graphics option. > My strongest Indigo2 is a bit of a Frankenstein :O Non-factory > config... R10K at 175 Extreme in green skins Green? I don't think I've seen that before, only the purple and teal variants. Was there some significance to the color in terms of hardware, target market etc., or was it just a customer option? > one of the more rare R8K systems I heard that those are uncommon (but also that performance is nothing to write home about, unless you're crafting code specifically for them) > I was obsessed with these things when I was in high school :O :-) It's taken me fifteen years (since I used to use SGI hardware at an old workplace) to find any systems of my own, although a few Indys, Challenges and 4D's passed briefly through my hands during my museum days. I think SGI had a habit of taking hardware back when the customer was done with it and destroying it, so there are comparatively few (compared to Sun etc.) still out in the wild. > IMO, Indigo2 systems are great machines; I have found them to be very > robust in the long-term although from my experience the Impact PSUs seem a > bit more prone to failure than the non-Impact PSUs (the mode seems to be > harmless to the rest of the system; it just one day decides it won't power > on; reminiscent of how I've seen the Nidec supplies go on the Indys). I'm certainly wary of loading this one up with more RAM just because the PSU must be reasonably stressed already running the graphics hardware and two drives. Eventually I think I'll put one of the drives into an external enclosure (or tweak things so it's not needed). Oh, this machine has the optional feet for standing it sideways, too - I'm not sure if I mentioned that. I think I like that configuration more than a 'slab' form factor, but I'm not sure if it's better or worse for heat dissipation. > If you want to know the specifics, you have probably found this already, > but there are two SGI-specific commands you can run from IRIX, "hinv" and > "gfxinfo" which will tell you what's there.. You can also run "hinv" from > the ROM monitor. Yup. I *used* to know my way around them. I'm just very, very rusty right now :-) I got an Origin 2200 at the same time which I'm just working on cleaning up at the moment. I've got four node boards for that one (2 CPUs per board) and an enormous quantity of RAM, but as of right now I'm not sure if the boards all have compatible CPU types (I think some mixing and matching was possible, but not all combinations work), and I have a feeling I may need an additional board (which I don't have) anyway to build an 8-CPU system. Still, 4 should be possible (and as a plus I can run that from a regular outlet). cheers Jules From useddec at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 21:56:44 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:56:44 -0500 Subject: F, L, and M Vax boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just found more... L0101 L0102 L0011 L0016 L0105 L0111 On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:55 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > We just sorted and shelved the following boards, most of which I will > never use. If you are interested in any or all, feel free to make an offer > off list. > > There are a few non DEC ones I have to figure out yet, otherwise this > should be most of them. > > If you need L boards not listed here, let me know. I have a friend who > has some. > > Quantities available on most. > > Thanks, Paul > > F1002 > F1003 > F1004 > F1005 > F1006 > F1007 > F1008 > F1009 > F1010 > F1013 > F1021 > > L0007 > L0008 > L0104 > L0107 > L0108 > L0109 > L0115 > L0217 > L0225 > > M7463 > M8238 > M8286 > M8287 > M8288 > M8289 > M8373 X 14 > M8574? I need to recheck part number on the last 2. > M8576? > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Mar 31 22:15:39 2015 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:15:39 -0400 Subject: Just over two weeks 'til VCF East X Message-ID: <551B62DB.9030309@snarc.net> A friendly reminder for those who didn't get the memo about their TPS reports VCF East X: it's happening soon! The show is April 17-19 at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, New Jersey. That's around 60 minutes south of Manhattan and 90 minutes northeast of Philadelphia. - Friday's schedule has 16 technical classes and a PDP-8 50th anniversary ceremony. - Saturday/Sunday's agenda has morning keynotes, two exhibit halls open the rest of the day, the PDP-8 Pavilion, consignment, vendors, museum tours, etc. Tickets are available online and at the door. http://vintage.org/2015/east/ http://facebook.com/vcfeast http://twitter.com/vcfeast Hope to see you there! - Evan K. From christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com Tue Mar 31 22:26:09 2015 From: christopher.parish at parishcomputers.com (Christopher Parish) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2015 03:26:09 +0000 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Thanks for your help everyone. I finally figured out what was happening. Something is wrong with my (everyone's?) drives. Every once in a while I get stuck on a track. The drive has no conception of where it is cylinder-wise. It just accepts a difference in track number and direction, so something like this was occurring: Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 ... Repeat N times ... Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 I've fixed it by having my controller perturb the track number after several (5) unsuccessful seeks: Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 ... Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+2 Current Track:2 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:-1 Current Track:1 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:0 (YAY!) In the process, I have confirmed that sometimes the drive does mis-seek when making larger jumps across the pack. A single follow up seek is almost always enough. I have a feeling this is related to the the special things the RL02 does when making single track movements (kick pulses?) that must not be working very well in my drives. Of course, this could be totally normal, and the controllers/software drivers hide it. Regardless, it never hurts to make the controller more robust than it needs to be. Christopher From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 22:41:07 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 23:41:07 -0400 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se> <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:26 PM, Christopher Parish wrote: > Thanks for your help everyone. I finally figured out what was happening. Something is wrong with my (everyone's?) drives. > ...this could be totally normal, and the controllers/software drivers hide it. I'd have to dig out driver code (perhaps rl.c from 2BSD would be the quickest to read and digest if you already know C) but IIRC, yes... all the drivers "hide this" because that's what the drives do. I don't know chapter and verse about how they handle multiple 1-track seek fails (the OS/8 RL8A driver probably has the least room for fancy footwork), but they should all handle this to one degree or another. I'm very interested in this. I have a *lot* of packs to image and it would be nice to not have to run them across a serial port or to dump them on a real MicroVAX or Unibus VAX and transport the images off of that. I look forward to your continued success! -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Mar 31 22:58:07 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2015 05:58:07 +0200 Subject: RL02K Pack Reliability/Characteristics In-Reply-To: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> References: <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEE8CA@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <55191740.6070303@update.uu.se>, <551969A1.2030000@pico-systems.com> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEF9CE@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local>, <551A15E5.3070309@update.uu.se>, <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFA5D@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> <639FFF5F324E6D409F42CF2B2F3BB56AB0FEFC21@MBX022-E1-NJ-4.exch022.domain.local> Message-ID: <551B6CCF.9090308@update.uu.se> On 2015-04-01 05:26, Christopher Parish wrote: > Thanks for your help everyone. I finally figured out what was happening. Something is wrong with my (everyone's?) drives. Every once in a while I get stuck on a track. The drive has no conception of where it is cylinder-wise. It just accepts a difference in track number and direction, so something like this was occurring: > > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 > ... Repeat N times ... > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 > > I've fixed it by having my controller perturb the track number after several (5) unsuccessful seeks: > > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 > ... > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+1 > Current Track:0 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:+2 > Current Track:2 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:-1 > Current Track:1 Desired track:1 Commanded Difference:0 (YAY!) > > In the process, I have confirmed that sometimes the drive does mis-seek when making larger jumps across the pack. A single follow up seek is almost always enough. > > I have a feeling this is related to the the special things the RL02 does when making single track movements (kick pulses?) that must not be working very well in my drives. Of course, this could be totally normal, and the controllers/software drivers hide it. Regardless, it never hurts to make the controller more robust than it needs to be. This sounds strange. Are you sure you are not just fiddling with the head here? A head switch will taste like a seek, but it might actually not move you as you would expect... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 31 23:00:15 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:00:15 -0700 Subject: Just a reminder Message-ID: <551B6D4F.8050007@sydex.com> This talk of tape gear reminds me that some may not have seen the availability in Wichita of some tape gear and the like I posted back in July. Such as StorageTek 9-track, Tandberg QIC, Exabyte 8mm, Xerox-branded 9 track, at least one working 3480, Avix UNIBUS tape controller boards, etc. A couple of PDP 11/34s; you get the idea. Contact Shaun Halstead Microfilm Services, Inc. Wichita, Ks (316) 269-2203 From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 31 23:48:20 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:48:20 -0700 Subject: Looking for: Moniterm Viking 2400 Message-ID: <551B7894.3030607@gmail.com> OK, long shot. I gave one of these away years ago and I wish I hadn't; anyone have a Moniterm Viking 2400 monitor they'd part with? This is a large (24") B&W monitor from the late 80s. I still have the Mac Nubus card to drive it... Thanks as always, Josh From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 18:37:54 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:37:54 -0400 Subject: SGI Origin side skins In-Reply-To: <551B13AD.8030401@gmail.com> References: <551B13AD.8030401@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just my opinion but if no functional issue I'd probably just leave them as they are... Older SGI plastics as used on i.e. the Indigo, Indigo2, Indy seem to be pretty robust even after 20-30 years down the line (though I'm still loath to pull the cover on an Indigo2 nowadays unless I really have to because getting them lined up to put back on can be tricky and you risk breaking the tabs at the back of the top case... But the later SGI equipment... well, I am thinking of the O2s in particular, they must have changed the formulation on the plastics used for the case skins because they did not age well and became quite brittle fairly rapidly. They aged almost as poorly as the plastics in my Power Mac 8500 which are completely held together by epoxy at this point, LOL. What was Apple thinking! (cost cutting, obviously) I'm not sure if this was such an issue on the higher end systems i.e. Octane, Origin/Onyx, Tezro, etc. but if I were in your shoes, my concern would be that the side skins could fracture or shear in the process of being removed or reinstalled. SGI's case designs were so striking; I want to try and do everything I can to keep the skins in nice shape. Is the paint really very bad? I'd just consider it a little bit of character :O Best, Sean On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Does anyone know how to remove the side skins on an SGI Origin > (specifically a 2200 deskside cabinet). The manual mentions removal of the > top and front, but says that the sides are more tricky and to contact SGI > for the procedure. > > I'd like to remove them as there's some minor paint splatter on them, > which would be much easier to deal with off the machine. > > I see there's a screw at the bottom of the machine on the rear edge (much > like the one for the front which releases the front skin), but removing it > doesn't seem to let the rear plastic molding drop in the same way, and I > assume this needs to come off first. > > cheers > > Jules > From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 18:58:39 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 19:58:39 -0400 Subject: Burroughs keyboard In-Reply-To: <7D820669FEFF4093BA4C90F65FC6285C@ED> References: <7D820669FEFF4093BA4C90F65FC6285C@ED> Message-ID: Hi Ed, You wouldn't happen to have a Burroughs Micro A in your stash of stuff, would you? Honestly I probably couldn't afford it anyway, I'm really more just curious, but I bet that would get some pulses racing here :O Best, Sean On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Ed Hogan wrote: > Have a Burroughs B25-K2I keyboard for sale. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Ed Hogan > > > > > > > > > > Unimetrix Corporation > > 20371 Lake Forest Drive > > Suite A-7 > > Lake Forest, CA 92630 > > > > Phone: 949-215-2475 x101 > > Toll Free: 800-633-9955 x101 > > FAX: 949-215-2472 > > Email: ehogan at unimetrix.com > > Web: www.unimetrix.com > > > > THIS COMMUNICATION MAY CONTAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND/OR OTHERWISE PROPRIETARY > MATERIAL and is thus for use only by the intended recipient. If you > received > this in error, please contact the sender and delete the e-mail and its > attachments from all computers. > > > > > > From scaron at umich.edu Tue Mar 31 20:46:55 2015 From: scaron at umich.edu (Sean Caron) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2015 21:46:55 -0400 Subject: SGI Indigo2 graphics options In-Reply-To: <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> References: <55187D73.7000605@gmail.com> <55188276.3080300@gmail.com> <55188376.7040200@willomail.co.uk> <5519C073.5050107@gmail.com> <20150331060547.GB15638@Update.UU.SE> <551B45C1.9040901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, it's a teal cabinet; I'm crass; I call them "green" and "purple", respectively, for non-Impact and Impact I2s :) You are right, even the interactive performance of the R8K had me a bit taken aback; it feels more like you are on an R4K/100 or R4K/150 machine at best. But I understand in its day it really flew on the FP codes; the claim was something like the R8K could sustain the FP performance of a Cray Y-MP EL CPU or something like that... I don't know if this claim was ever really substantiated in the real world... But it's a neat little oddball; I like having a white elephant around. I guess I was just lucky to get into the hobby at the right time ca. 1999-2001 when a lot of this particular gear just happened to be hitting the secondhand market... I got a lot of my gear from a great guy, Herb Johnson, maybe a few other folks here have done business with him... he's out on the east coast somewhere... and I think he got a lot of his stuff from academic property dispo sales. I've gotten a few directly from property disposition at various Michigan universities; a friend also got one via the same means. Very little of what I've got came out of a private commercial setting (although I have mostly /worked/ in academia). Great that you got a pair of matching feet! Use em! I think the system looks absolutely gorgeous when on stands. Laying an I2 horizontally on a desktop does not do it justice, IMO ;) With all my SGI scrounging I only ever ended up with one pair of stands and I keep them on my display system... I don't know that it affects cooling efficiency much how you've got it oriented so long as there isn't stuff piled up around the bottom blocking airflow when the system is vertical. Good luck with the Origin, I've never personally owned any SGI that large... closest I come is I've got some guts to a Crimson. IIRC that hardware was considered kind of "finicky" in its day so might not hurt to run in a reduced config and keep some for spare parts. Best, Sean On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 9:11 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 03/31/2015 10:24 AM, Sean Caron wrote: > >> Anyway, more on-topic, congratulations, Jules, that's a fine system you >> have found! >> > > Indeed it is! Although there were Indys and O2's available as well, the > Indigo2 just seemed like the more interesting of the three - and that was > before I discovered that it was fitted with such a high spec graphics > option. > > My strongest Indigo2 is a bit of a Frankenstein :O Non-factory >> config... R10K at 175 Extreme in green skins >> > > Green? I don't think I've seen that before, only the purple and teal > variants. Was there some significance to the color in terms of hardware, > target market etc., or was it just a customer option? > > one of the more rare R8K systems >> > > I heard that those are uncommon (but also that performance is nothing to > write home about, unless you're crafting code specifically for them) > > I was obsessed with these things when I was in high school :O >> > > :-) It's taken me fifteen years (since I used to use SGI hardware at an > old workplace) to find any systems of my own, although a few Indys, > Challenges and 4D's passed briefly through my hands during my museum days. > I think SGI had a habit of taking hardware back when the customer was done > with it and destroying it, so there are comparatively few (compared to Sun > etc.) still out in the wild. > > IMO, Indigo2 systems are great machines; I have found them to be very >> robust in the long-term although from my experience the Impact PSUs seem a >> bit more prone to failure than the non-Impact PSUs (the mode seems to be >> harmless to the rest of the system; it just one day decides it won't power >> on; reminiscent of how I've seen the Nidec supplies go on the Indys). >> > > I'm certainly wary of loading this one up with more RAM just because the > PSU must be reasonably stressed already running the graphics hardware and > two drives. Eventually I think I'll put one of the drives into an external > enclosure (or tweak things so it's not needed). > > Oh, this machine has the optional feet for standing it sideways, too - I'm > not sure if I mentioned that. I think I like that configuration more than a > 'slab' form factor, but I'm not sure if it's better or worse for heat > dissipation. > > If you want to know the specifics, you have probably found this already, >> but there are two SGI-specific commands you can run from IRIX, "hinv" and >> "gfxinfo" which will tell you what's there.. You can also run "hinv" from >> the ROM monitor. >> > > Yup. I *used* to know my way around them. I'm just very, very rusty right > now :-) > > I got an Origin 2200 at the same time which I'm just working on cleaning > up at the moment. I've got four node boards for that one (2 CPUs per board) > and an enormous quantity of RAM, but as of right now I'm not sure if the > boards all have compatible CPU types (I think some mixing and matching was > possible, but not all combinations work), and I have a feeling I may need > an additional board (which I don't have) anyway to build an 8-CPU system. > Still, 4 should be possible (and as a plus I can run that from a regular > outlet). > > cheers > > Jules > >