From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Dec 1 00:03:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 06:03:52 +0000 Subject: papertape repair tape or kit wanted In-Reply-To: References: <20151129142912.9A20818C0E4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <086c01d12aba$e123d2c0$a36b7840$@gmail.com> <565BFB9D.1020509@dds.nl> <565C12A6.9040701@jwsss.com> <001901d12b53$73163450$59429cf0$@gmail.com> <565C3163.60809@btinternet.com> <565C5378.6060607@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565D3848.1090209@btinternet.com> Keston Common? There's one near Bromley. Oh well back to latest project - a TU58. Power OK and BOB shows P2/DB25 is live so TXD On 30/11/15 16:44, tony duell wrote: >> Hi Tony >> Did you say Data Dynamics? I certainly knew them. I used >> to sell them LA36 print mechs. > Yes, almost certainly the same company. They sold several teleprinters > based on the Teletype Model 33. Same mechanics, but IMHO a nicer (all > metal) case and different electronics. I have one which is a normal > ASR33 typing unit, keyboard, and reader but in a case with bulbs to > illuminate the printout and electronics to give both RS232 and current > loop interfaces and a single-step button for the reader. > >> It was run by two old guys called Tindale and Stabler. The factory was >> in Hayes and I used to drive >> there from the DEC office in Ealing via Bombay (sorry I mean Southall). > Ah, that Hayes, not the one just down the road from me across Keston Common. > > -tony From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 08:29:23 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 15:29:23 +0100 Subject: A stored collection piece is a Schrodinger's cat In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 December 2015 at 01:12, Adrian Graham wrote: > The > ROM/RAM replacement board he sells is an excellent 40 pin toolkit to help > tracing faults in the vast majority of PETs so with the help of Dave and the > good folk here I've got life back into my most dead 4032. He's a smart and very helpful chap. He built a Raspberry Pi 2 into my old LMT 68FX2 ZX Spectrum replacement keyboard. The snag is, a Spectrum keyboard layout is really very little use with anything else (e.g. Linux or RISC OS.) Shame, as it has a good action and feel -- individual sprung keys. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jrr at flippers.com Tue Dec 1 09:49:19 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 07:49:19 -0800 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <565DC17F.1050106@flippers.com> On 11/28/2015 3:41 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >>> them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >>> now! :-) >> Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. > I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you > wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only > partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. > > Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most > jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and > obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not > infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published > without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the > public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... > >> So first you need permission to use that! > ...you actually don't. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Further to this discussion on 'automatic' copyright. That only came into being in 1989 - prior to that ALL documents had to have either the symbol (c) or the word COPYRIGHT as well as the name of the person or organization on the document (if a single page) or the front page or the index page. This was true for the period prior to 1978, however during the period 1978 through 1989 you had up to five years to copyright the document, otherwise it passed into public domain. https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm One could trademark an expression 'bounce buffer', however as Mouse points out you can't exactly copyright it. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 09:52:45 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:52:45 +0100 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <565DC17F.1050106@flippers.com> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565DC17F.1050106@flippers.com> Message-ID: <565DC24D.8040504@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-01 16:49, John Robertson wrote: > On 11/28/2015 3:41 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >>>> them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >>>> now! :-) >>> Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. >> I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you >> wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only >> partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. >> >> Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most >> jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and >> obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not >> infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published >> without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the >> public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... >> >>> So first you need permission to use that! >> ...you actually don't. >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> > Further to this discussion on 'automatic' copyright. That only came into > being in 1989 - prior to that ALL documents had to have either the > symbol (c) or the word COPYRIGHT as well as the name of the person or > organization on the document (if a single page) or the front page or the > index page. This was true for the period prior to 1978, however during > the period 1978 through 1989 you had up to five years to copyright the > document, otherwise it passed into public domain. > > https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm > > One could trademark an expression 'bounce buffer', however as Mouse > points out you can't exactly copyright it. And all of these commands are only relevant if you are in the US. Much of the rest of the world signed the Berne convention long before that. Johnny From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 1 11:09:33 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:09:33 -0500 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-12-01 02:19, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. >> >> Sure it does. The DOS format, which was adopted by RSTS, has 4 way interleaving. If you write a 500 block file, it writes every 4th block forward, then fills in one set of gaps reverse, then forward and backward again, resulting in finally all blocks used. >> >> This is a software function, of course, and actually implemented in the file system, but it's certainly interleaving. It doesn't apply to contiguous files (supported in DOS but not RSTS), which is why RSTS V4A sysgen with output to DECtape took so long -- writing a contiguous CIL file, in block order, madly seeking back & forth. > > Oh. You mean that the software decided to use blocks 0,4,8,12,... > > Yes, that would be doable. I was thinking of interleaving at the format level. > > But such interleaving means the software have to keep rather good track of things... True. Interleaving, as described in this thread, is typically a software function; the software uses the blocks in an order different from the "ascending by 1" natural ordering. I suppose it's possible to do something like interleaving where consecutive sector addresses are not physically adjacent on the media. Come to think of it, that's exactly what the MSCP RX50 controllers do, since MSCP implements the mapping from LBA to physical addresses in the controller, not the host. But in older systems where the controllers handle physical addresses and the mapping from LBA is in the driver, interleave is handled there (or above). The CDC 844 controller (which handles drives that look like the RP04 or RP06) had a command to set 1:1 or 2:1 interleave. The reason is that it would allow reading or writing several sectors without an intervening "seek" command. Depending on the selected mode, the current sector address would advance by 1 or by 2 at the end of the operation (and, in the case of 2:1, wrap at track end the first time around). That's the only case I have seen of interleave support in pre-MSCP controllers. On the subject of DECtape, and "keeping good track of things" -- DOS format DECtape has 510 bytes per tape block, the other two bytes are used as the link word. It's a bit like MSDOS FAT format (or CDC 6000 series, which did it 20 years earlier), but with the links in the blocks rather than in a separate region. The directory points to the first block, and you get the next block address when you read the first. Yes, that means no random access supported; in DOS, if you needed random access you were required to use a contiguous file, in which all 512 bytes per block are payload. The interleaving is simply a side effect of the block allocation algorithm: when looking for the next block to allocate, it would start looking at current + 4 or current - 4 (depending on the direction for this block). So starting from an empty tape you'd get a regular layout, but if there were already some allocated blocks you might get larger skips, and on a very nearly full tape possibly a smaller skip. A very odd interleave shows up in the THE operating system for the Electrologica EL-X8 by Dijkstra, in its addressing for the paging drum. That device is word addressable (think of an RF11, but somewhat larger: 512k 27-bit words). The start word address of sector n is given by (n * 1025) mod 512k. I assume that's done for the usual reasons interleaving is used, but while the formula is nicely spelled out in the literature, no explanation is given for why it was used. paul From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 11:25:21 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:25:21 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > On 2015-12-01 02:19, Paul Koning wrote: > >> > >>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: > >>> > >>> ... > >>> DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. > >> > >> Sure it does. The DOS format, which was adopted by RSTS, has 4 way > interleaving. If you write a 500 block file, it writes every 4th block > forward, then fills in one set of gaps reverse, then forward and backward > again, resulting in finally all blocks used. > >> > >> This is a software function, of course, and actually implemented in the > file system, but it's certainly interleaving. It doesn't apply to > contiguous files (supported in DOS but not RSTS), which is why RSTS V4A > sysgen with output to DECtape took so long -- writing a contiguous CIL > file, in block order, madly seeking back & forth. > > > > Oh. You mean that the software decided to use blocks 0,4,8,12,... > > > > Yes, that would be doable. I was thinking of interleaving at the format > level. > > > > But such interleaving means the software have to keep rather good track > of things... > > True. Interleaving, as described in this thread, is typically a software > function; the software uses the blocks in an order different from the > "ascending by 1" natural ordering. > > I suppose it's possible to do something like interleaving where > consecutive sector addresses are not physically adjacent on the media. > Come to think of it, that's exactly what the MSCP RX50 controllers do, > since MSCP implements the mapping from LBA to physical addresses in the > controller, not the host. But in older systems where the controllers > handle physical addresses and the mapping from LBA is in the driver, > interleave is handled there (or above). > > A long time ago, I reverse-engineered an Atari 800/400 copy protection scheme which was based on using multiple sectors with the same sector number. Apparently the floppy controller put sector number information in a date preamble when formatting the floppy. The scheme (somehow) overwrote the preamble on some of the sectors, changing their number; the track contained something like: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 4 This meant that a command to "read sector 4" would return whichever sector 4 passed under the head first. If you did 'read sector 2', 'read sector 4' you would get the first one; 'read sector 6', 'read sector 4', you would get the second. Interleaving for obfustication, not efficiency. -- Charles From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 1 10:55:29 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 11:55:29 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> > On Nov 30, 2015, at 9:14 PM, william degnan wrote: > > I have an 11/05 with ASR 33 for I/O. I am using the M9970 console card to > make the connection. I have loaded papertape BASIC into core (16K) and it > boots up from 000 000 to the TTY, I can type in programs, etc. > > Question - I'd like to switch over to a VT 50 in 20ma mode. Not sure if > this is possible based on what I read here: > > http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/interfacing-to-a-pdp-1105/144-interfacing-with-a-pdp-1105-sorting-the-wires I'm not sure I understand the question correctly. That article clearly points out the 20 mA wires, and presumably that's where your ASR33 is connected. The VT50 comes (according to the peripherals handbook) with a standard 20 mA interface, optional RS232 interface. So it sounds like it would be a matter of finding where the 20 mA connector on the VT50 is, and plugging into that. Interestingly enough, the VT52 is listed as supporting either kind of interface, but only one; "specify at time of order". paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 1 11:39:16 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:39:16 +0000 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> References: , <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> Message-ID: > The VT50 comes (according to the peripherals handbook) with a standard 20 mA > interface, optional RS232 interface. So it sounds like it would be a matter of finding > where the 20 mA connector on the VT50 is, and plugging into that. > > Interestingly enough, the VT52 is listed as supporting either kind of interface, but only > one; "specify at time of order". I suspect it's the same as the VT55 which I have. That terminal has a little daughterboard on the main logic board which contains the interface buffers etc. Mine is 20mA current loop, I assume the RS232 interface is a simialr daughterboard that replaces it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 1 11:43:20 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 09:43:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > On the subject of DECtape, and "keeping good track of things" -- DOS > format DECtape has 510 bytes per tape block, the other two bytes are > used as the link word. It's a bit like MSDOS FAT format (or CDC 6000 > series, which did it 20 years earlier), but with the links in the blocks > rather than in a separate region. The directory points to the first > block, and you get the next block address when you read the first. Take a look also at Apple-DOS! "Beneath Apple DOS" seemed to be the canonical reference to it. IFF I'm remembering correctly, . . . DIRectory on track 17. 256 bytes per sector. Each sector within a file has 252 bytes of data and a 4 byte pointer to the track and sector number of the next sector GCR (with a different GCR pattern for the 13 sector V 16 sector disks) It had a sector interleave, but inefficiencies in the OS (copying bytes to and from a buffer) resulted in the need to change the interleave a few times. There are prob'ly some here who remember all of the details. I had little to no experience with it, other than writing the file system software to go with a crude flux-transition board ("Apple Turnover") to copy files from 13 and 16 sector Apple DOS, Apple CP/M, Apple Pascal, and Pro-DOS. It never worked well. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 11:43:32 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:43:32 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm not sure I understand the question correctly. That article clearly points out the 20 mA wires, and presumably that's where your ASR33 is connected. The VT50 comes (according to the peripherals handbook) with a standard 20 mA interface, optional RS232 interface. So it sounds like it would be a matter of finding where the 20 mA connector on the VT50 is, and plugging into that. > > Interestingly enough, the VT52 is listed as supporting either kind of interface, but only one; "specify at time of order". I don't know that I've taken apart a VT50 or if there are internal differences, but for the VT52, there's a ~2"x5" (from memory) PCB with interface circuitry for either EIA or 20mA and a permanently-attached cable with the appropriate connector on the host end. You take the bottom of the terminal off, pop the board, pop the other one on and it's switched. It would not be difficult to replicate either board, either by hand or with a fabricated PCB. -ethan From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 12:04:44 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 19:04:44 +0100 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565DE13C.3050602@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-01 18:09, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:39 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-12-01 02:19, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> DECtape never did interleaving that I know of. >>> >>> Sure it does. The DOS format, which was adopted by RSTS, has 4 way interleaving. If you write a 500 block file, it writes every 4th block forward, then fills in one set of gaps reverse, then forward and backward again, resulting in finally all blocks used. >>> >>> This is a software function, of course, and actually implemented in the file system, but it's certainly interleaving. It doesn't apply to contiguous files (supported in DOS but not RSTS), which is why RSTS V4A sysgen with output to DECtape took so long -- writing a contiguous CIL file, in block order, madly seeking back & forth. >> >> Oh. You mean that the software decided to use blocks 0,4,8,12,... >> >> Yes, that would be doable. I was thinking of interleaving at the format level. >> >> But such interleaving means the software have to keep rather good track of things... > > True. Interleaving, as described in this thread, is typically a software function; the software uses the blocks in an order different from the "ascending by 1" natural ordering. > > I suppose it's possible to do something like interleaving where consecutive sector addresses are not physically adjacent on the media. Come to think of it, that's exactly what the MSCP RX50 controllers do, since MSCP implements the mapping from LBA to physical addresses in the controller, not the host. But in older systems where the controllers handle physical addresses and the mapping from LBA is in the driver, interleave is handled there (or above). Yes, the "hardware" interleave is what I was assuming everyone here was talking about. Otherwise there is no point/need to format to get the interleaving... With disks, this is perfectly doable, as the block number is in the block header, and the drive/controller scans headers until the current block passes by. There is no real reason to actually place the disk blocks in consecutive physical order on the disk. Any order will work. That's what soft sectors gets you. And in addition to the interleaving someone also mentioned that you can stagger blocks between tracks, so that you have time for a track switch and then hit the next sector in optimal time, if you really work at it. Johnny From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 1 12:09:58 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 10:09:58 -0800 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565DE276.4040603@sydex.com> On 12/01/2015 09:25 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > This meant that a command to "read sector 4" would return whichever sector > 4 passed under the head first. If you did 'read sector 2', 'read sector 4' > you would get the first one; 'read sector 6', 'read sector 4', you would > get the second. > > Interleaving for obfustication, not efficiency. A particularly cute one was employed with early versions of Harvard Graphics for the PC. A protection key was encoded in the gap between sectors. Since the PC 765 controller writes individual sectors (i.e. looks for a IDAM, then a DAM, then turns on Write Gate), it was very difficult (but not impossible) to replicate this stuff, as using a regular write command would cause the data separator to lose sync in the write splice area. On the other hand, it was pretty simple for a WD-17/27 type FDC to duplicate this. --Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 12:11:19 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 19:11:19 +0100 Subject: Sector Interleave In-Reply-To: <565DE13C.3050602@update.uu.se> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565A609F.7000007@compsys.to> <565B74A3.90706@sydex.com> <5849276E-30CB-4182-9C6D-F1EF0F943C5C@comcast.net> <38ADF29F-6A69-4A11-9031-C4717D1531C3@comcast.net> <53134644-7183-452A-ACE9-8A3F232CDBC9@ieee.org> <565CF3FC.7020204@update.uu.se> <19F290D6-9FAA-4C87-A2C7-0ACDF88E6C52@comcast.net> <565CFA36.4090004@update.uu.se> <258426F2-52D1-436B-B6A0-7BECECEE7E44@comcast.net> <565DE13C.3050602@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565DE2C7.4090808@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-01 19:04, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-12-01 18:09, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> I suppose it's possible to do something like interleaving where >> consecutive sector addresses are not physically adjacent on the >> media. Come to think of it, that's exactly what the MSCP RX50 >> controllers do, since MSCP implements the mapping from LBA to physical >> addresses in the controller, not the host. But in older systems where >> the controllers handle physical addresses and the mapping from LBA is >> in the driver, interleave is handled there (or above). > > Yes, the "hardware" interleave is what I was assuming everyone here was > talking about. Otherwise there is no point/need to format to get the > interleaving... With disks, this is perfectly doable, as the block > number is in the block header, and the drive/controller scans headers > until the current block passes by. There is no real reason to actually > place the disk blocks in consecutive physical order on the disk. Any > order will work. That's what soft sectors gets you. To point it out more clearly, in case this seems muddled. The hardware interlaving done by MSCP for the RX50 do not really have anything to do with MSCP and the ability to map blocks around. When the floppies are formatted, the sector numbers are written in the header of each sector. All later operations always search for the correct sector by checking the sector header. As such, this not only works on MSCP controllers, but any floppy, on any floppy controller. And in theory also on pretty much any other kind of disk as well. The trick is the ability to format the disk and write the header. For most disks you cannot do that yourself. Johnny From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 12:22:12 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 13:22:12 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 12:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > I'm not sure I understand the question correctly. That article clearly > points out the 20 mA wires, and presumably that's where your ASR33 is > connected. The VT50 comes (according to the peripherals handbook) with a > standard 20 mA interface, optional RS232 interface. So it sounds like it > would be a matter of finding where the 20 mA connector on the VT50 is, and > plugging into that. > > > > Interestingly enough, the VT52 is listed as supporting either kind of > interface, but only one; "specify at time of order". > > I don't know that I've taken apart a VT50 or if there are internal > differences, but for the VT52, there's a ~2"x5" (from memory) PCB with > interface circuitry for either EIA or 20mA and a permanently-attached > cable with the appropriate connector on the host end. You take the > bottom of the terminal off, pop the board, pop the other one on and > it's switched. > > It would not be difficult to replicate either board, either by hand or > with a fabricated PCB. > > -ethan > Sorry about the wording of my question. Thanks for the replies. I was only able to get the VT50 to receive, I could not send. So I decided to research the problem. I found the link above, the author of the page says in effect 20mA did not work (for him) as desired. So I was wondering if anyone here has been successful to attach a M9970 to a VT50 or VT52. I spend more time on it, but I was curious if it was even worth it given the hardware. The author writes: -start quote-- I first tried to connect a PC with the 11/05 over a industrial RS232-to-20mA converter, but this failed. A 20mA interface works by one side providing a 20mA current, which drives receiver and transmitter of the closed loops for Transmit and Receive. But the 20mA interface of the PDP-11/05 is not a proper one: the receiver is more like a low impedance voltage sensor, while the transmitter simply switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V. At best you call the PDP-11/05 serial interface a "TTY interface": it is well suited to read data generated by mechanical switches to GND, and driving solenoids for transmit data. -end quote-- -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 12:48:58 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 13:48:58 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > > There is a DF11-F module that converts TTY to EIA and back again, 2 2-slot cards, cable,e tc. (Page 4-80 in the peripheral handbook from 73-74). The handbook did not indicate a specific PDP 11 from this time (05/10/35/40, etc) Anyway, the teletype is fine for now, I need to be able to save/load programs than see on a pretty screen. I will probably just use a serial card if it came to that. -- Bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 1 12:56:46 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 13:56:46 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: > > ... > Sorry about the wording of my question. Thanks for the replies. I was > only able to get the VT50 to receive, I could not send. So I decided to > research the problem. I found the link above, the author of the page says > in effect 20mA did not work (for him) as desired. So I was wondering if > anyone here has been successful to attach a M9970 to a VT50 or VT52. I > spend more time on it, but I was curious if it was even worth it given the > hardware. > > The author writes: > > -start quote-- > > I first tried to connect a PC with the 11/05 over a industrial > RS232-to-20mA converter, but this failed. > > A 20mA interface works by one side providing a 20mA current, which drives > receiver and transmitter of the closed loops for Transmit and Receive. > > But the 20mA interface of the PDP-11/05 is not a proper one: the receiver > is more like a low impedance voltage sensor, while the transmitter simply > switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V. At best you call the > PDP-11/05 serial interface a "TTY interface": it is well suited to read > data generated by mechanical switches to GND, and driving solenoids for > transmit data. > -end quote-- Hm. I wonder by what definition it is not "proper". A current loop transmitter, in an electronic terminal as opposed to a mechanical one, would be a switching transistor that turns the current on and off. The only issues I can think of are the voltage rating used, and the polarity. For example, in earlier 60 mA loops (for the Model 15 Teletype and machines of that era) you might find loop voltages around 100 volts or so, with a big series resistor. The purpose was to reduce the distortion from the inductance in the loop (in the receive solenoid). In the later 20 mA loops I would expect lower voltages to be used. But the specification is pretty wide open -- "20 mA" is really about all there is. You can build conforming devices with optocouplers, switching transistors, solenoids and cam operated switches, etc. I don't know what "simply switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V" means. The voltages at the pins aren't directly relevant, only the voltage difference between the two transmit pins -- or more precisely, the resulting current in the loop. I could easily imagine that in the off state both pins are at -15 while in the on state one goes to +3.5, or something like that, driving through a resistor of a bit under 1000 ohms. The fact that the "industrial converter" didn't work does not imply that the VT50 would have troubles. Just the opposite, actually; I would assume that DEC would make sure that its 20 mA terminals work with its 20 mA host interfaces. Did you check the voltage and current in the two loops when you hooked it up? I wonder if you might have the polarity backwards on one of the circuits, assuming that the devices involved care. paul From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 13:58:49 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:58:49 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4EC15528-823D-4978-8F8D-DDF97386785C@gmail.com> The current loop is actually "proper" . There are 3 parts to current loop 1) transmitter (switch) 2) receiver (opto coupler in dec stuff) 3) current source You will have problems if things don't match. An active transmitter has to connect to a passive receiver. Passive transmitter to active receiver. Active means it has a current source,passive no current source. The 11/05 is active tx active rx. So expects contacts on the keyboard and the selector magnet in the printer. Most industrial current loop converters are not this way out of the box. Joe > On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >> ... >> Sorry about the wording of my question. Thanks for the replies. I was >> only able to get the VT50 to receive, I could not send. So I decided to >> research the problem. I found the link above, the author of the page says >> in effect 20mA did not work (for him) as desired. So I was wondering if >> anyone here has been successful to attach a M9970 to a VT50 or VT52. I >> spend more time on it, but I was curious if it was even worth it given the >> hardware. >> >> The author writes: >> >> -start quote-- >> >> I first tried to connect a PC with the 11/05 over a industrial >> RS232-to-20mA converter, but this failed. >> >> A 20mA interface works by one side providing a 20mA current, which drives >> receiver and transmitter of the closed loops for Transmit and Receive. >> >> But the 20mA interface of the PDP-11/05 is not a proper one: the receiver >> is more like a low impedance voltage sensor, while the transmitter simply >> switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V. At best you call the >> PDP-11/05 serial interface a "TTY interface": it is well suited to read >> data generated by mechanical switches to GND, and driving solenoids for >> transmit data. >> -end quote-- > > Hm. I wonder by what definition it is not "proper". A current loop transmitter, in an electronic terminal as opposed to a mechanical one, would be a switching transistor that turns the current on and off. The only issues I can think of are the voltage rating used, and the polarity. For example, in earlier 60 mA loops (for the Model 15 Teletype and machines of that era) you might find loop voltages around 100 volts or so, with a big series resistor. The purpose was to reduce the distortion from the inductance in the loop (in the receive solenoid). In the later 20 mA loops I would expect lower voltages to be used. But the specification is pretty wide open -- "20 mA" is really about all there is. You can build conforming devices with optocouplers, switching transistors, solenoids and cam operated switches, etc. > > I don't know what "simply switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V" means. The voltages at the pins aren't directly relevant, only the voltage difference between the two transmit pins -- or more precisely, the resulting current in the loop. I could easily imagine that in the off state both pins are at -15 while in the on state one goes to +3.5, or something like that, driving through a resistor of a bit under 1000 ohms. > > The fact that the "industrial converter" didn't work does not imply that the VT50 would have troubles. Just the opposite, actually; I would assume that DEC would make sure that its 20 mA terminals work with its 20 mA host interfaces. > > Did you check the voltage and current in the two loops when you hooked it up? I wonder if you might have the polarity backwards on one of the circuits, assuming that the devices involved care. > > paul > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 14:37:47 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 21:37:47 +0100 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: <4EC15528-823D-4978-8F8D-DDF97386785C@gmail.com> References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> <4EC15528-823D-4978-8F8D-DDF97386785C@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2015-12-01 20:58 GMT+01:00 Joseph Lang : > The current loop is actually "proper" . > There are 3 parts to current loop > 1) transmitter (switch) > 2) receiver (opto coupler in dec stuff) > 3) current source > > You will have problems if things don't match. An active transmitter has to > connect to a passive receiver. > Passive transmitter to active receiver. > Active means it has a current source,passive no current source. > > The 11/05 is active tx active rx. So expects contacts on the keyboard and > the selector magnet in the printer. > Most industrial current loop converters are not this way out of the box. > Now, if this is a VT50, according to my printset it should be passive and thus if polarity matches should work (unless broken of course). Looking in the VT52 printset the current loop adapter seems to be configureable using jumpers for either active or passive. The same goes for the VT1XX option on the VT100 which had two switches which one could set. /Mattis > > Joe > > > On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:22 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> > >> ... > >> Sorry about the wording of my question. Thanks for the replies. I was > >> only able to get the VT50 to receive, I could not send. So I decided to > >> research the problem. I found the link above, the author of the page > says > >> in effect 20mA did not work (for him) as desired. So I was wondering if > >> anyone here has been successful to attach a M9970 to a VT50 or VT52. I > >> spend more time on it, but I was curious if it was even worth it given > the > >> hardware. > >> > >> The author writes: > >> > >> -start quote-- > >> > >> I first tried to connect a PC with the 11/05 over a industrial > >> RS232-to-20mA converter, but this failed. > >> > >> A 20mA interface works by one side providing a 20mA current, which > drives > >> receiver and transmitter of the closed loops for Transmit and Receive. > >> > >> But the 20mA interface of the PDP-11/05 is not a proper one: the > receiver > >> is more like a low impedance voltage sensor, while the transmitter > simply > >> switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V. At best you call the > >> PDP-11/05 serial interface a "TTY interface": it is well suited to read > >> data generated by mechanical switches to GND, and driving solenoids for > >> transmit data. > >> -end quote-- > > > > Hm. I wonder by what definition it is not "proper". A current loop > transmitter, in an electronic terminal as opposed to a mechanical one, > would be a switching transistor that turns the current on and off. The > only issues I can think of are the voltage rating used, and the polarity. > For example, in earlier 60 mA loops (for the Model 15 Teletype and machines > of that era) you might find loop voltages around 100 volts or so, with a > big series resistor. The purpose was to reduce the distortion from the > inductance in the loop (in the receive solenoid). In the later 20 mA loops > I would expect lower voltages to be used. But the specification is pretty > wide open -- "20 mA" is really about all there is. You can build > conforming devices with optocouplers, switching transistors, solenoids and > cam operated switches, etc. > > > > I don't know what "simply switches voltage at the levels +3.5V to -15 V" > means. The voltages at the pins aren't directly relevant, only the voltage > difference between the two transmit pins -- or more precisely, the > resulting current in the loop. I could easily imagine that in the off > state both pins are at -15 while in the on state one goes to +3.5, or > something like that, driving through a resistor of a bit under 1000 ohms. > > > > The fact that the "industrial converter" didn't work does not imply that > the VT50 would have troubles. Just the opposite, actually; I would assume > that DEC would make sure that its 20 mA terminals work with its 20 mA host > interfaces. > > > > Did you check the voltage and current in the two loops when you hooked > it up? I wonder if you might have the polarity backwards on one of the > circuits, assuming that the devices involved care. > > > > paul > > > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Dec 1 18:02:50 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:02:50 -0800 Subject: Seattle free teletype?? Message-ID: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> Check out the 3rd picture.... http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/zip/5340655886.html Someone go get this -- I'm stuck at work with no car at the moment.... --Jason From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 18:13:53 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 19:13:53 -0500 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> <4EC15528-823D-4978-8F8D-DDF97386785C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > ... should be passive... > The same goes for the VT1XX option on > the VT100 which had two switches which one could set. I have a couple of the VT1XX 20mA options, if anyone is looking. New in Box. -ethan From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 18:20:30 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 18:20:30 -0600 Subject: Seattle free teletype?? In-Reply-To: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> References: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <0D7C1114-991F-4054-8650-FA090CDBFFB7@gmail.com> It's gone now! Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 1, 2015, at 6:02 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > Check out the 3rd picture.... > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/zip/5340655886.html > > > Someone go get this -- I'm stuck at work with no car at the moment.... > > > --Jason From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 18:21:56 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 13:21:56 +1300 Subject: Seattle free teletype?? In-Reply-To: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> References: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> Message-ID: Already says 'teletype machine is gone'... Mike On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 1:02 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > Check out the 3rd picture.... > > http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/zip/5340655886.html > > > Someone go get this -- I'm stuck at work with no car at the moment.... > > > --Jason -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Dec 1 18:26:45 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:26:45 -0700 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 11/23/2015 7:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > The revived 2013 re-issue of Niklaus Wirth's Oberon system is a joy to behold. If you've never heard of Oberon before, it is a minimalistic education-oriented language and operating system designed after Wirth had taken a (second) sabattical at PARC in the 80's. > > The new version runs on a custom RISC processor, implemented in an FPGA, instead of the NS3032 in the orginal Ceres workstations. Originally, it required a Digilent "Spartan 3 Starter Kit" with a custom-built daughterboard providing a few additional connectors. This board is no longer made, however, and no other FPGA development board appears to provide the 32-bit wide fast SRAM the Oberon CPU required. > Recently, a new board, the OberonStation, has come onto the market that was designed specifically for Oberon, and will boot up Oberon 2013 out of the box. It also looks like an excellent platform for other retro-style FPGA CPU designs that want to stay away from complex SDRAM controllers and the caches they like to feed. > > My OberonStation arrived a couple of days ago, and it's really amazing to see what can be done with a hardware and software stack that is small enough to actually read and understand. > https://www.inf.ethz.ch/personal/wirth/ > Do you have 5 volt I/O with the OberonStaion FPGA? I was thinking of using it as general FPGA card. Ben. From jrr at flippers.com Tue Dec 1 18:57:30 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:57:30 -0800 Subject: "Bounce buffer" copyright [was Re: flash (or ide) storage for unibus 11?] In-Reply-To: <565DC24D.8040504@update.uu.se> References: <565A3545.6010205@compsys.to> <201511282341.SAA05167@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <565DC17F.1050106@flippers.com> <565DC24D.8040504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565E41FA.8080309@flippers.com> On 12/01/2015 7:52 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-12-01 16:49, John Robertson wrote: >> On 11/28/2015 3:41 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>>> Love that term, "bounce buffer" (I wrote a whole package to support >>>>> them in a packet switch I did) - I'm officially adopting it, right >>>>> now! :-) >>>> Hey - anything that anyone writes is automatically copyrighted. >>> I realize you...may have been less than entirely serious. But what you >>> wrote could easily be taken seriously, especially by someone only >>> partially inside our culture. So I'm going to be a minor killjoy here. >>> >>> Yes, anything written now is automatically copyrighted in most >>> jursidctions. But (a) the term "bounce buffer" is small enough and >>> obvious enough it probably cannot be copyrighted on its own (and is not >>> infringing when copied in isolation), (b) was quite possibly published >>> without copyright claim before automatic copyright and is thus in the >>> public domain now, and (c) is of uncertain authorship anyway. So... >>> >>>> So first you need permission to use that! >>> ...you actually don't. >>> >>> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >>> >> Further to this discussion on 'automatic' copyright. That only came into >> being in 1989 - prior to that ALL documents had to have either the >> symbol (c) or the word COPYRIGHT as well as the name of the person or >> organization on the document (if a single page) or the front page or the >> index page. This was true for the period prior to 1978, however during >> the period 1978 through 1989 you had up to five years to copyright the >> document, otherwise it passed into public domain. >> >> https://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm >> >> One could trademark an expression 'bounce buffer', however as Mouse >> points out you can't exactly copyright it. > > And all of these commands are only relevant if you are in the US. Much > of the rest of the world signed the Berne convention long before that. > > Johnny > > Or if you are dealing with documents published only in the United States. As the US did not adhere to the Berne convention until 1989 many products are public domain. I also don't know what the situation is in the Berne convention with respect to corporate ownership of copyrights (works for hire). Here in Canada such corporate rights do not exist - the creator of the document is the holder of the copyright. My point was that depending on when the document was published in the US it may (or may not) be public domain if at the time of publishing it had the then required Copyright symbol or word. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 1 19:31:56 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:31:56 -0800 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> Message-ID: <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> This is a funny cartoon and subsequent discussion thread from the Multics discussion group about emacs. Names and personal info edited out due to archival by unknown parties of the list and that these folks might not want names and certainly not email addresses archived. Mentioning that not as a criticism, just to explain the format. I also edited the thread back to bottom posting. Original XKCD cartoon link. https://xkcd.com/378/ >> From: Multicians >> Subject: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, Gary. As an emacs diehart, I fully appreciate that. In fact, there is a silly phrase that many emacs users use, when referring to all the obscure key bindings that you get by default with emacs, or can create. It.s called: >>> >>> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle >>> >>> I believe the history (someone can correct me if I.m wrong) is that Emacs was developed at the MIT AI Lab (by Richard Stallman) and initially written in Teco. It was developed on Lisp machines, which sported lots of modification keys on its keyboard. These included Control, Shift, Hyper, Meta, Super (and perhaps more). Naturally, emacs took advantage of some of these . at least those that were available on multiple terminals or could be emulated on lesser terminals. I remember when I worked at MIT LCS (down the hall from MIT AI), we had a key binding on our Lisp Machines that called the elevator to the 8th floor. I don.t remember the key binding, but I.m sure it used a few of these modification keys (and probably .e. for .elevator. as the modified key). In any case, the class of these funky key bindings was referred to as Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle. >>> >>> I.m sure I.ve gotten some of the facts wrong, but I.m also sure that at least someone on this list will correct me! >>> >>> . Eric >> > > >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Ken > wrote: >> >> >> I seem to recall that one of the Lisp machine keyboard modifiers was "Top", and that the phrase was therefore >> >>> Control-Shift-Meta-Top-Cokebottle >>> >> Where, of course, you were typing the "Cokebottle" key with the Control, Shift, Meta, and Top modifier keys depressed. >> >> I think the elevator hack involved the AI Lab PDP-6 (or maybe, later, PDP-10), but I wouldn't be surprised if it migrated to the Lisp machines, too The old -6, especially, had added hardware to enable it to control the various robot devices the AI lab played with. Some AI Lab hardware guys gained access to the machinery room on the 10th floor and added some extra relay circuitry to one of the elevator controllers, and it wasn't much of a stretch to run the control wires down to the 9th floor machine room. IIRC it took a few years for whatever company was responsible for maintaining the elevators to discover the unauthorized modification and remove it. >> >> How long it stayed removed is an entirely different question, of course. >> >> Ken >> MIT-LCS '72-'80 >> Multics ARPANET software >> On 12/1/2015 11:42 AM, Eric [multicians] wrote: > > > I just knew I had that facts wrong! Yes, you.re right. I remember the Top key now. > > I do know that the elevator hack worked on Lisp machines, but I think you.re right that it also worked on some other interfaces. I remember getting frustrated when I.d be .ready to leave. (at 2am, or so), and would call the elevator, and then I.d have to fix .one more bug., and by the time I got to the elevator, I actually had to push the boring old button to get the elevator doors to open! :-) > > . Eric From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 1 19:39:28 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 01:39:28 +0000 Subject: Seattle free teletype?? In-Reply-To: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> References: <565E352A.7060501@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E853@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jason Howe Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 4:03 PM > Check out the 3rd picture.... > http://seattle.craigslist.org/skc/zip/5340655886.html > Someone go get this -- I'm stuck at work with no car at the moment.... Our TTY specialist (who also works at the Communications Museum in Seattle) pointed out that this is a KSR32 (with ASR capability added), that is, a 5-level rather than 8-level machine. Should whoever acquired this not need a Baudot TTY, please get in touch! We can certainly put it to use on old hardware. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 19:43:51 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 02:43:51 +0100 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> Nice. But, of course, Emacs was not developed on Lisp machines. TECO was a DEC edtior/language, and Emacs came about on PDP-10 machines. I think originally with ITS, but it could also be ran on TOPS-20. About the cokebottle reference, here's the quote from JARGON.TXT: COKEBOTTLE n. Any very unusual character. MIT people complain about the "control-meta-cokebottle" commands at SAIL, and SAIL people complain about the "altmode-altmode-cokebottle" commands at MIT. So that really did not have anything to do with Emacs. But this is all ancient history by now, and I'm not surprised history has twisted some facts... :-) Johnny On 2015-12-02 02:31, jwsmobile wrote: > > This is a funny cartoon and subsequent discussion thread from the > Multics discussion group about emacs. > > Names and personal info edited out due to archival by unknown parties of > the list and that these folks might not want names and certainly not > email addresses archived. Mentioning that not as a criticism, just to > explain the format. I also edited the thread back to bottom posting. > > Original XKCD cartoon link. > > https://xkcd.com/378/ > > >> From: Multicians > >> Subject: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor > >> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks, Gary. As an emacs diehart, I fully appreciate that. In > fact, there is a silly phrase that many emacs users use, when referring > to all the obscure key bindings that you get by default with emacs, or > can create. It.s called: > >>> > >>> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle > >>> > >>> I believe the history (someone can correct me if I.m wrong) is that > Emacs was developed at the MIT AI Lab (by Richard Stallman) and > initially written in Teco. It was developed on Lisp machines, which > sported lots of modification keys on its keyboard. These included > Control, Shift, Hyper, Meta, Super (and perhaps more). Naturally, emacs > took advantage of some of these . at least those that were available on > multiple terminals or could be emulated on lesser terminals. I remember > when I worked at MIT LCS (down the hall from MIT AI), we had a key > binding on our Lisp Machines that called the elevator to the 8th floor. > I don.t remember the key binding, but I.m sure it used a few of these > modification keys (and probably .e. for .elevator. as the modified key). > In any case, the class of these funky key bindings was referred to as > Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle. > >>> > >>> I.m sure I.ve gotten some of the facts wrong, but I.m also sure > that at least someone on this list will correct me! > >>> > >>> . Eric > >> > > > > > > >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Ken > wrote: > >> > >> > >> I seem to recall that one of the Lisp machine keyboard modifiers was > "Top", and that the phrase was therefore > >> > >>> Control-Shift-Meta-Top-Cokebottle > >>> > >> Where, of course, you were typing the "Cokebottle" key with the > Control, Shift, Meta, and Top modifier keys depressed. > >> > >> I think the elevator hack involved the AI Lab PDP-6 (or maybe, > later, PDP-10), but I wouldn't be surprised if it migrated to the Lisp > machines, too The old -6, especially, had added hardware to enable it > to control the various robot devices the AI lab played with. Some AI > Lab hardware guys gained access to the machinery room on the 10th floor > and added some extra relay circuitry to one of the elevator controllers, > and it wasn't much of a stretch to run the control wires down to the 9th > floor machine room. IIRC it took a few years for whatever company was > responsible for maintaining the elevators to discover the unauthorized > modification and remove it. > >> > >> How long it stayed removed is an entirely different question, of > course. > >> > >> Ken > >> MIT-LCS '72-'80 > >> Multics ARPANET software > >> > > On 12/1/2015 11:42 AM, Eric [multicians] wrote: > > > > > > I just knew I had that facts wrong! Yes, you.re right. I remember the > Top key now. > > > > I do know that the elevator hack worked on Lisp machines, but I think > you.re right that it also worked on some other interfaces. I remember > getting frustrated when I.d be .ready to leave. (at 2am, or so), and > would call the elevator, and then I.d have to fix .one more bug., and by > the time I got to the elevator, I actually had to push the boring old > button to get the elevator doors to open! :-) > > > > . Eric > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 1 19:48:56 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 02:48:56 +0100 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565E4E08.3050606@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-02 02:43, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Nice. > > But, of course, Emacs was not developed on Lisp machines. TECO was a DEC > edtior/language, and Emacs came about on PDP-10 machines. I think > originally with ITS, but it could also be ran on TOPS-20. I should probably correct myself right away. TECO was developed at MIT. DEC included it in pretty much all systems they made, but it did not originate with them. I don't know if TECO was ported elsewhere back then, but there certainly exists TECO ports to other system nowadays. But the ITS TECO was/is rather different than most other dialects of TECO, so don't expect to be able to run Emacs on any TECO interpreter you might have... Johnny > > About the cokebottle reference, here's the quote from JARGON.TXT: > > COKEBOTTLE n. Any very unusual character. MIT people complain about > the "control-meta-cokebottle" commands at SAIL, and SAIL people > complain about the "altmode-altmode-cokebottle" commands at MIT. > > So that really did not have anything to do with Emacs. But this is all > ancient history by now, and I'm not surprised history has twisted some > facts... :-) > > Johnny > > On 2015-12-02 02:31, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> This is a funny cartoon and subsequent discussion thread from the >> Multics discussion group about emacs. >> >> Names and personal info edited out due to archival by unknown parties of >> the list and that these folks might not want names and certainly not >> email addresses archived. Mentioning that not as a criticism, just to >> explain the format. I also edited the thread back to bottom posting. >> >> Original XKCD cartoon link. >> >> https://xkcd.com/378/ >> >> >> From: Multicians >> >> Subject: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, Gary. As an emacs diehart, I fully appreciate that. In >> fact, there is a silly phrase that many emacs users use, when referring >> to all the obscure key bindings that you get by default with emacs, or >> can create. It.s called: >> >>> >> >>> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle >> >>> >> >>> I believe the history (someone can correct me if I.m wrong) is that >> Emacs was developed at the MIT AI Lab (by Richard Stallman) and >> initially written in Teco. It was developed on Lisp machines, which >> sported lots of modification keys on its keyboard. These included >> Control, Shift, Hyper, Meta, Super (and perhaps more). Naturally, emacs >> took advantage of some of these . at least those that were available on >> multiple terminals or could be emulated on lesser terminals. I remember >> when I worked at MIT LCS (down the hall from MIT AI), we had a key >> binding on our Lisp Machines that called the elevator to the 8th floor. >> I don.t remember the key binding, but I.m sure it used a few of these >> modification keys (and probably .e. for .elevator. as the modified key). >> In any case, the class of these funky key bindings was referred to as >> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle. >> >>> >> >>> I.m sure I.ve gotten some of the facts wrong, but I.m also sure >> that at least someone on this list will correct me! >> >>> >> >>> . Eric >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Ken > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I seem to recall that one of the Lisp machine keyboard modifiers was >> "Top", and that the phrase was therefore >> >> >> >>> Control-Shift-Meta-Top-Cokebottle >> >>> >> >> Where, of course, you were typing the "Cokebottle" key with the >> Control, Shift, Meta, and Top modifier keys depressed. >> >> >> >> I think the elevator hack involved the AI Lab PDP-6 (or maybe, >> later, PDP-10), but I wouldn't be surprised if it migrated to the Lisp >> machines, too The old -6, especially, had added hardware to enable it >> to control the various robot devices the AI lab played with. Some AI >> Lab hardware guys gained access to the machinery room on the 10th floor >> and added some extra relay circuitry to one of the elevator controllers, >> and it wasn't much of a stretch to run the control wires down to the 9th >> floor machine room. IIRC it took a few years for whatever company was >> responsible for maintaining the elevators to discover the unauthorized >> modification and remove it. >> >> >> >> How long it stayed removed is an entirely different question, of >> course. >> >> >> >> Ken >> >> MIT-LCS '72-'80 >> >> Multics ARPANET software >> >> >> >> On 12/1/2015 11:42 AM, Eric [multicians] wrote: >> > >> > >> > I just knew I had that facts wrong! Yes, you.re right. I remember the >> Top key now. >> > >> > I do know that the elevator hack worked on Lisp machines, but I think >> you.re right that it also worked on some other interfaces. I remember >> getting frustrated when I.d be .ready to leave. (at 2am, or so), and >> would call the elevator, and then I.d have to fix .one more bug., and by >> the time I got to the elevator, I actually had to push the boring old >> button to get the elevator doors to open! :-) >> > >> > . Eric >> >> > > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 1 19:59:42 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 17:59:42 -0800 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <565E508E.70506@jwsss.com> On 12/1/2015 5:43 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Nice. > > But, of course, Emacs was not developed on Lisp machines. TECO was a > DEC edtior/language, and Emacs came about on PDP-10 machines. I think > originally with ITS, but it could also be ran on TOPS-20. > > About the cokebottle reference, here's the quote from JARGON.TXT: > > COKEBOTTLE n. Any very unusual character. MIT people complain about > the "control-meta-cokebottle" commands at SAIL, and SAIL people > complain about the "altmode-altmode-cokebottle" commands at MIT. > > So that really did not have anything to do with Emacs. But this is all > ancient history by now, and I'm not surprised history has twisted some > facts... :-) > It is emacs, if you read other discussions of emacs. The evolution of various OS, input methods and terminals and the many homes for versions of emacs lead to these terms being deeply embedded in the editor. Just hitting a key and having the cursor move back was once a difficult feat. Then having the character there erased by a space (and accurately have both motions accurately reflected in the buffer) was another event. Emacs truly went crazy expanding the editing and keyboard motions. I don't have an article to point to, and am not an emacs expert / fan. I sent this thread on to another friend who is a very old time user as my usual aggravation. thanks Jim > Johnny > > On 2015-12-02 02:31, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> This is a funny cartoon and subsequent discussion thread from the >> Multics discussion group about emacs. >> >> Names and personal info edited out due to archival by unknown parties of >> the list and that these folks might not want names and certainly not >> email addresses archived. Mentioning that not as a criticism, just to >> explain the format. I also edited the thread back to bottom posting. >> >> Original XKCD cartoon link. >> >> https://xkcd.com/378/ >> >> >> From: Multicians >> >> Subject: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor >> >> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Thanks, Gary. As an emacs diehart, I fully appreciate that. In >> fact, there is a silly phrase that many emacs users use, when referring >> to all the obscure key bindings that you get by default with emacs, or >> can create. It.s called: >> >>> >> >>> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle >> >>> >> >>> I believe the history (someone can correct me if I.m wrong) is that >> Emacs was developed at the MIT AI Lab (by Richard Stallman) and >> initially written in Teco. It was developed on Lisp machines, which >> sported lots of modification keys on its keyboard. These included >> Control, Shift, Hyper, Meta, Super (and perhaps more). Naturally, emacs >> took advantage of some of these . at least those that were available on >> multiple terminals or could be emulated on lesser terminals. I remember >> when I worked at MIT LCS (down the hall from MIT AI), we had a key >> binding on our Lisp Machines that called the elevator to the 8th floor. >> I don.t remember the key binding, but I.m sure it used a few of these >> modification keys (and probably .e. for .elevator. as the modified key). >> In any case, the class of these funky key bindings was referred to as >> Control-Meta-Shift-Cokebottle. >> >>> >> >>> I.m sure I.ve gotten some of the facts wrong, but I.m also sure >> that at least someone on this list will correct me! >> >>> >> >>> . Eric >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> On Dec 1, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Ken > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> I seem to recall that one of the Lisp machine keyboard modifiers was >> "Top", and that the phrase was therefore >> >> >> >>> Control-Shift-Meta-Top-Cokebottle >> >>> >> >> Where, of course, you were typing the "Cokebottle" key with the >> Control, Shift, Meta, and Top modifier keys depressed. >> >> >> >> I think the elevator hack involved the AI Lab PDP-6 (or maybe, >> later, PDP-10), but I wouldn't be surprised if it migrated to the Lisp >> machines, too The old -6, especially, had added hardware to enable it >> to control the various robot devices the AI lab played with. Some AI >> Lab hardware guys gained access to the machinery room on the 10th floor >> and added some extra relay circuitry to one of the elevator controllers, >> and it wasn't much of a stretch to run the control wires down to the 9th >> floor machine room. IIRC it took a few years for whatever company was >> responsible for maintaining the elevators to discover the unauthorized >> modification and remove it. >> >> >> >> How long it stayed removed is an entirely different question, of >> course. >> >> >> >> Ken >> >> MIT-LCS '72-'80 >> >> Multics ARPANET software >> >> >> >> On 12/1/2015 11:42 AM, Eric [multicians] wrote: >> > >> > >> > I just knew I had that facts wrong! Yes, you.re right. I remember the >> Top key now. >> > >> > I do know that the elevator hack worked on Lisp machines, but I think >> you.re right that it also worked on some other interfaces. I remember >> getting frustrated when I.d be .ready to leave. (at 2am, or so), and >> would call the elevator, and then I.d have to fix .one more bug., and by >> the time I got to the elevator, I actually had to push the boring old >> button to get the elevator doors to open! :-) >> > >> > . Eric >> >> > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 1 20:13:06 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 02:13:06 +0000 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 5:44 PM Thanks for chiming in, Johnny! Keeps me from having to do it. :-) > But, of course, Emacs was not developed on Lisp machines. TECO was a DEC > edtior/language, and Emacs came about on PDP-10 machines. I think > originally with ITS, but it could also be ran on TOPS-20. Well, technically, the original TECO was developed on the PDP-1 at MIT, taken up by DEC, and ported to most of their subsequent systems. The version of TECO in which EMACS was developed was an MIT-AI Lab local creation with no DEC input, for ITS; that version of TECO, and therefore EMACS, was ported to TENEX and TOPS-20. > About the cokebottle reference, here's the quote from JARGON.TXT: > COKEBOTTLE n. Any very unusual character. MIT people complain about > the "control-meta-cokebottle" commands at SAIL, and SAIL people > complain about the "altmode-altmode-cokebottle" commands at MIT. > So that really did not have anything to do with Emacs. But this is all > ancient history by now, and I'm not surprised history has twisted some > facts... :-) The history of "bucky bits" goes back even further than most people know. Before the PDP-6 came into existence, SAIL ran a computer-assisted lab using a PDP-1 with specially modified terminals. These were designed by a Swiss computer scientist later known for creating a paedogogical Algol derivative, a gentleman whom the SAIL graduate students did not like and called (referring to a malocclusion) "Bucky Beaver".[1] The extra 2 bits on the terminals became "bucky bits". With the PDP-6 came a design for special terminals which included not 2 but 5 bucky bits (though 2 were unnamed on the Stanford keyboard), in a 14-bit character set[2] where Control was the 200 bit, Meta was the 400 bit, and Top was the 4000 bit. Top referred to non-Latin characters on the keys, above the usual typewriter characters we all know and love. Internally, Top+character was translated to a value in the range 0-37, which were graphical rather than ASCII control characters. I used to use one of these terminals from time to time, to read mailing lists hosted on SU-AI (AKA Sail.Stanford.EDU in a more modern era), and to SUPDUP to my account on MIT-AI, where I could use EMACS with real bucky bits just as $DEITY intended. Up next here is to modify a terminal emulation program to provide SUPDUP and the Stanford character set in order to talk to our WAITS[3] system on the net. Rich [1] The name of an animated spokescreature for Ipana toothpaste. [2] Hey, if RMS can do that in the EMACS manual... [3] The OS, descended from the PDP-6 monitor and thus related to Tops-10 which SAIL ran on the PDP-6, the PDP-10/PDP-6 dual processor, the KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and the KL-10 uniprocessor between 1964 and 1990. Also ran on a Foonly at CCRMA and a KL-10 at Lawrence Livermore Labs, but retired earlier. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Dec 1 20:35:28 2015 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 19:35:28 -0700 Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <565E58F0.5020900@Wild-Hare.com> (Pssssst - Henry Burkhardt III based Data General's original program editor on DEC's 1967 version incarnation of "TECO", and it is still still alive today...) On 12/1/2015 7:13 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2015 5:44 PM > > Thanks for chiming in, Johnny! Keeps me from having to do it. :-) > >> But, of course, Emacs was not developed on Lisp machines. TECO was a DEC >> edtior/language, and Emacs came about on PDP-10 machines. I think >> originally with ITS, but it could also be ran on TOPS-20. > > Well, technically, the original TECO was developed on the PDP-1 at MIT, > taken up by DEC, and ported to most of their subsequent systems. > > The version of TECO in which EMACS was developed was an MIT-AI Lab local > creation with no DEC input, for ITS; that version of TECO, and therefore > EMACS, was ported to TENEX and TOPS-20. > >> About the cokebottle reference, here's the quote from JARGON.TXT: > >> COKEBOTTLE n. Any very unusual character. MIT people complain about >> the "control-meta-cokebottle" commands at SAIL, and SAIL people >> complain about the "altmode-altmode-cokebottle" commands at MIT. > >> So that really did not have anything to do with Emacs. But this is all >> ancient history by now, and I'm not surprised history has twisted some >> facts... :-) > > The history of "bucky bits" goes back even further than most people know. > Before the PDP-6 came into existence, SAIL ran a computer-assisted lab > using a PDP-1 with specially modified terminals. These were designed by > a Swiss computer scientist later known for creating a paedogogical Algol > derivative, a gentleman whom the SAIL graduate students did not like and > called (referring to a malocclusion) "Bucky Beaver".[1] The extra 2 bits > on the terminals became "bucky bits". > > With the PDP-6 came a design for special terminals which included not 2 > but 5 bucky bits (though 2 were unnamed on the Stanford keyboard), in a > 14-bit character set[2] where Control was the 200 bit, Meta was the 400 > bit, and Top was the 4000 bit. Top referred to non-Latin characters on > the keys, above the usual typewriter characters we all know and love. > Internally, Top+character was translated to a value in the range 0-37, > which were graphical rather than ASCII control characters. > > I used to use one of these terminals from time to time, to read mailing > lists hosted on SU-AI (AKA Sail.Stanford.EDU in a more modern era), and > to SUPDUP to my account on MIT-AI, where I could use EMACS with real > bucky bits just as $DEITY intended. > > Up next here is to modify a terminal emulation program to provide SUPDUP > and the Stanford character set in order to talk to our WAITS[3] system > on the net. > > Rich > > [1] The name of an animated spokescreature for Ipana toothpaste. > [2] Hey, if RMS can do that in the EMACS manual... > [3] The OS, descended from the PDP-6 monitor and thus related to Tops-10 > which SAIL ran on the PDP-6, the PDP-10/PDP-6 dual processor, the > KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and > the KL-10 uniprocessor between 1964 and 1990. Also ran on a Foonly > at CCRMA and a KL-10 at Lawrence Livermore Labs, but retired earlier. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 21:25:19 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 22:25:19 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 Message-ID: I purchased a Microvax 3800 a few weeks ago. I have not really had the time to really take a good look at it until now. I still do not have the needed power cord to power it Up. Looks like a standard PC power cord with a notch in it. I found a place that sells them online, still waiting for it to get here. I was told the machine was removed from working service, however it looks like it has been sitting for quite some time. The hard drive, hard drive controller, and tape controller have been removed. I purchased a m7769 DSSI controller card online, so that is one more step in the direction of getting the machine all together. Still waiting to find the controller for the tape drive and a dssi hard drive, although they look to be pretty affordable on ebay. Just figured id post about it here, to show my progress twords getting it running. http://postimg.org/gallery/fztxjqbe/ --Devin From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 22:50:08 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 20:50:08 -0800 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 7:25 PM, devin davison wrote: > > I purchased a m7769 DSSI controller card online, so that is one more step > in the direction of getting the machine all together. Still waiting to find > the controller for the tape drive and a dssi hard drive, although they look > to be pretty affordable on ebay. > > Just figured id post about it here, to show my progress twords getting it > running. > > http://postimg.org/gallery/fztxjqbe/ > > --Devin Those pictures show an H3602 console panel for an M7626 KA660 VAX 4000 Model 200 CPU. That CPU (and also the M7624 KA640 MicroVAX 3300/3400 CPU which uses the same H3602 console panel) has a built in DSSI controller so there shouldn't be a real need to add a separate M7769 KFQSA DSSI controller. An M7559 TQK70 controller should be easy and cheap to find, but that's the last thing I would spend money on myself. Dealing with TK50 / TK70 drives has never been worth the bother for me. If I already had a working DSSI disk drive to use but no way to load software I would consider buying an M5976 KZQSA SCSI controller which can be used with a SCSI CD-ROM drive to install software. (Make an offer on this one maybe: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151702502097 ) If I didn't already have a working DSSI disk drive to use I might consider buying a general purpose SCSI controller such as an Emulex UC07 which can be used with both SCSI disks and CD-ROMs. There are some on eBay around the $200 range. http://www.ebay.com/itm/161129117629 http://www.ebay.com/itm/141122593003 I don't have any Emulex SCSI controller myself. I have several CMD and Dilog SCSI controllers which work well. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 23:03:11 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 21:03:11 -0800 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 7:25 PM, devin davison wrote: > > Just figured id post about it here, to show my progress twords getting it > running. > > http://postimg.org/gallery/fztxjqbe/ Another tip: If you haven't done so already, remove the CPU console panel and check to see if there is still a NiCad battery pack installed. The battery pack is mounted under the console panel PCB and you have to remove a few screws holding the PCB in place to get to it. If the pack is still installed then remove it. If it hasn't already started leaking it is only a matter of time before it does and starts corroding the PCB. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 2 02:18:56 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 09:18:56 +0100 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 02:13:06AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and > You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. But I assume you mean homogenic three-processor machines? Who, besides Peter L?thberg, ran threeprocessor machines? Also, what are you refering to as PDP-10? KA-10? Thanks, Pontus. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Dec 2 02:31:33 2015 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 00:31:33 -0800 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009c01d12cdb$dad531c0$907f9540$@pacbell.net> >Do you have 5 volt I/O with the OberonStaion FPGA? >I was thinking of using it as general FPGA card. The serial port is 3.3v according to the website. I haven't attempted to use the serial port or the GPIO pins, but I believe they are all 3.3 volts for the Spartan 3 series. Check the data sheet for the FPGA to be sure. There are no level converters on the board, so whatever the FPGA provides is what you get. BTW, as of this writing, the website is showing the fully-assembled boards as available. --Bill From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 03:18:30 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 02:18:30 -0700 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one > KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. Yes, the processors were a KL10, a KI10, and a 166 (PDP-6 CPU). Needless to say, that was not a DEC-supported configuration. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 03:20:07 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 02:20:07 -0700 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Do you have 5 volt I/O with the OberonStaion FPGA? > I was thinking of using it as general FPGA card. No, the FPGA pins are neither 5V, nor 5V-tolerant. The last Xilinx FPGA that had 5V-tolerant I/O was the Spartan II. Xilinx does still make CPLDs that are 5V-tolerant, the XC95nnXL series. From dory at doughq.com Wed Dec 2 04:31:35 2015 From: dory at doughq.com (DougTest) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:31:35 +1100 Subject: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50 In-Reply-To: References: <153A149C-46CA-47FA-B491-E20588253EAD@comcast.net> <0FC56190-0262-4EED-A40F-9F844ED99901@comcast.net> <4EC15528-823D-4978-8F8D-DDF97386785C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565EC887.6080905@doughq.com> Hi Ethan, I would be *very* interested on one of those for my 11/05 - including shipping to sunny Australia :-) Doug On 12/2/2015 11:13 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> ... should be passive... >> The same goes for the VT1XX option on >> the VT100 which had two switches which one could set. > I have a couple of the VT1XX 20mA options, if anyone is looking. New in Box. > > -ethan > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 2 06:28:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 07:28:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [multicians] Emacs humor Message-ID: <20151202122857.AD9EC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> I think the elevator hack involved the AI Lab PDP-6 (or maybe, later, >> PDP-10) I can supply definitive bits here (I have read the code involved). The actual interface to the elevator was in one of the PDP-11 front-ends on the MIT-AI KA10 (memory escapes me as to whether it was the TV11 or the XGP11 or what, don't have time right at the moment to go look - I suspect the former). There was actually a table in the PDP-11 code that ran the Knight TV's (perhaps the first bit-mapped display system) so that one only needed to type '-E', and the code knew which floor that Knight TV console was on, and automagically sent the elevator to that floor (3, 8 or 9). >> I wouldn't be surprised if it migrated to the Lisp machines, too Yes, but that would have just been a network client talking to a server; the actual hardware interface remained, I am pretty sure, on the -11. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 06:40:08 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:40:08 +0000 Subject: TU-58 Message-ID: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> Dear List While the silk screeners process the panels I have a couple of days for a little project I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! I know this issue has been addressed before. So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to replace the degraded stuff. The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d A UK source would be nice, Rod From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 06:58:57 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:58:57 -0000 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <009c01d12cdb$dad531c0$907f9540$@pacbell.net> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <565E3AC5.9030402@jetnet.ab.ca> <009c01d12cdb$dad531c0$907f9540$@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <03ad01d12d01$352046e0$9f60d4a0$@gmail.com> Spartan 3E inputs can be made 5V tolerant with a series resistor... http://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/19146.html Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William > Maddox > Sent: 02 December 2015 08:32 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) > > >Do you have 5 volt I/O with the OberonStaion FPGA? > >I was thinking of using it as general FPGA card. > > The serial port is 3.3v according to the website. I haven't attempted to use > the serial port or the GPIO pins, but I believe they are all 3.3 volts for the > Spartan 3 series. Check the data sheet for the FPGA to be sure. There are > no level converters on the board, so whatever the FPGA provides is what > you get. > > BTW, as of this writing, the website is showing the fully-assembled boards as > available. > > --Bill > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 08:04:28 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 15:04:28 +0100 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 24 November 2015 at 08:45, Mark Wickens wrote: > Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still > plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. Was there ever an ARM version? I am wondering how hard it would be to port to Raspberry Pi... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 2 08:35:33 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 06:35:33 -0800 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <565F01B5.7030703@bitsavers.org> On 12/2/15 12:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 02:13:06AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, > Who, besides Peter L?thberg, ran threeprocessor machines? > SAIL, which is the triprocessor Rich is referring to. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 09:25:02 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 10:25:02 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 7:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! Yep. > I know this issue has been addressed before. Yep. > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to replace > the degraded stuff. > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d I've used 5/8" (0.625") OD Tygon tubing, often used for aquarium lines and drainage lines. I just get a snip off the roll, place it over the end of the cleaned hub, and slice it to the right height to provide a "wheel" as wide as the original. > A UK source would be nice, Can't help you with that. I get my Tygon at the hardware store. No idea what sizes you would have there. -ethan From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 2 09:31:38 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 09:31:38 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> I used orange over black tubing designed for carrying water under pressure from Home Depot (here in the US), and then sanded it down to a reasonable O.D. size (IIRC). Worked great. I don't know that the diameter is absolutely critical - I think it has some kind of speed encoding. On 12/2/2015 6:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Dear List > While the silk screeners process the panels I have a > couple of days for a little project > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! > > I know this issue has been addressed before. > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to > replace the degraded stuff. > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d > A UK source would be nice, > > Rod > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 09:50:46 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 15:50:46 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> Message-ID: <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> Thanks Jay Yes there's an optical encoder on the other end of the motor. Depending on the pressure of the roller on the cassette drive wheel it will deform more or less. That effectivley changes the diameter and hence the speed. So you need to set it. Its a DC motor so you can control the speed. Just count the encoder pulses over time and you know what the speed is. Did you glue your pressure hose on or was a push fit enough? Regards Rod On 02/12/2015 15:31, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I used orange over black tubing designed for carrying water under > pressure from Home Depot (here in the US), and then sanded it down to a > reasonable O.D. size (IIRC). Worked great. > > I don't know that the diameter is absolutely critical - I think it has > some kind of speed encoding. > > On 12/2/2015 6:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Dear List >> While the silk screeners process the panels I have a >> couple of days for a little project >> I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. >> Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! >> >> I know this issue has been addressed before. >> So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to >> replace the degraded stuff. >> The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d >> A UK source would be nice, >> >> Rod >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 2 09:54:24 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 10:54:24 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> > On Dec 2, 2015, at 10:50 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Thanks Jay > Yes there's an optical encoder on the other end of the motor. > Depending on the pressure of the roller on the cassette drive wheel it will deform more or less. > That effectivley changes the diameter and hence the speed. So you need to set it. Actually, it's the circumference that matters, not the diameter. Does the circumference of a rubber roll change significantly when you press on it? paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 10:06:18 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 08:06:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > Actually, it's the circumference that matters, not the diameter. I always thought that there was a relatively stable relationship between those! :-) Circumference tends to be a little over 3 times the diameter (3.0 in some states) :-) > Does the circumference of a rubber roll change significantly when you > press on it? If it shifts or squeezes out to the sides, not so much. If it compresses, yes. Before TPMS, some cars got a crude estimation of low tire pressure by comparing the RPM of a tire (ABS sensors) with its fully inflated brethren. (circumference changing with pressure change) From tonypf11 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 10:13:06 2015 From: tonypf11 at gmail.com (Tony) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:13:06 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... times the diameter. On 12/2/2015 11:06 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> Actually, it's the circumference that matters, not the diameter. > > I always thought that there was a relatively stable relationship > between those! :-) > Circumference tends to be a little over 3 times the diameter (3.0 in > some states) :-) > >> Does the circumference of a rubber roll change significantly when you >> press on it? > If it shifts or squeezes out to the sides, not so much. > If it compresses, yes. > > Before TPMS, some cars got a crude estimation of low tire pressure by > comparing the RPM of a tire (ABS sensors) with its fully inflated > brethren. > (circumference changing with pressure change) > > > From js at cimmeri.com Wed Dec 2 10:14:36 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2015 11:14:36 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565F18EC.9010307@cimmeri.com> Ugh... Could this thread get any more offensive to people's knowledge.. On 12/2/2015 11:13 AM, Tony wrote: > Mathematically, circumference is PI > times diameter or 3.14159..... times > the diameter. > > > On 12/2/2015 11:06 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >>> Actually, it's the circumference >>> that matters, not the diameter. >> >> I always thought that there was a >> relatively stable relationship >> between those! :-) >> Circumference tends to be a little >> over 3 times the diameter (3.0 in >> some states) :-) >> >>> Does the circumference of a rubber >>> roll change significantly when you >>> press on it? >> If it shifts or squeezes out to the >> sides, not so much. >> If it compresses, yes. >> >> Before TPMS, some cars got a crude >> estimation of low tire pressure by >> comparing the RPM of a tire (ABS >> sensors) with its fully inflated >> brethren. >> (circumference changing with pressure >> change) >> >> >> > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 10:33:13 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:33:13 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> Message-ID: <565F1D49.4030708@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Circumference and Diameter are linked by the constant Pi and therefore are an entity. Its a little more complex with a rubber wheel and its indented path. However as we are using closed loop control when the measured term equals the target term there you are. You can get into loop filters and lots of nice math if you want. Rod On 02/12/2015 16:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >> Actually, it's the circumference that matters, not the diameter. > > I always thought that there was a relatively stable relationship > between those! :-) > Circumference tends to be a little over 3 times the diameter (3.0 in > some states) :-) > >> Does the circumference of a rubber roll change significantly when you >> press on it? > If it shifts or squeezes out to the sides, not so much. > If it compresses, yes. > > Before TPMS, some cars got a crude estimation of low tire pressure by > comparing the RPM of a tire (ABS sensors) with its fully inflated > brethren. > (circumference changing with pressure change) > > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 10:41:27 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:41:27 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2 December 2015 at 17:13, Tony wrote: > Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... times the > diameter. [1] Please do not top-quote. [2] Turn up your humour detectors. The OP was making a joke about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana_Pi_Bill That is why he said "in some states" with a smiley. By attempting to "correct" him, you have merely exposed your own ignorance of history and mathematics and your inability to work out the meaning of a smiley. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 10:41:29 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:41:29 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565F1F39.1020801@btinternet.com> I say.. come on chaps.. this is not math 101. Any more suggestions for sources of a bit of rubber tube? Rod Smallwood On 02/12/2015 16:13, Tony wrote: > Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... > times the diameter. > > > On 12/2/2015 11:06 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: >>> Actually, it's the circumference that matters, not the diameter. >> >> I always thought that there was a relatively stable relationship >> between those! :-) >> Circumference tends to be a little over 3 times the diameter (3.0 in >> some states) :-) >> >>> Does the circumference of a rubber roll change significantly when >>> you press on it? >> If it shifts or squeezes out to the sides, not so much. >> If it compresses, yes. >> >> Before TPMS, some cars got a crude estimation of low tire pressure by >> comparing the RPM of a tire (ABS sensors) with its fully inflated >> brethren. >> (circumference changing with pressure change) >> >> >> > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 2 10:48:56 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:48:56 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sorry for stirring up this hornet's nest. I actually meant to ask a real question, and the way I phrased it made a mess of things. The real question: for rubber rollers in this sort of application, does the distortion that occurs significantly affect the circumference? Or is the nature of the material such that it's squished out of shape, but circumference does not change much? paul From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed Dec 2 10:54:50 2015 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:54:50 +0100 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <565F225A.9020304@bluewin.ch> On 02.12.2015 15:04, Liam Proven wrote: > On 24 November 2015 at 08:45, Mark Wickens wrote: >> Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still >> plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. > > > Was there ever an ARM version? I am wondering how hard it would be to > port to Raspberry Pi... > Check out http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm Jos From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 10:56:18 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:56:18 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565F22B2.1090507@btinternet.com> I'd rarther get a bit of tube for my TU58. Hint The key is to understand the nature of elasticity in particular the rate change with respect to time. On 02/12/2015 16:48, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm sorry for stirring up this hornet's nest. > > I actually meant to ask a real question, and the way I phrased it made a mess of things. The real question: for rubber rollers in this sort of application, does the distortion that occurs significantly affect the circumference? Or is the nature of the material such that it's squished out of shape, but circumference does not change much? > > paul > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 11:17:13 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 18:17:13 +0100 Subject: Oberon and the OberonStation (retro-style FPGA computing) In-Reply-To: <565F225A.9020304@bluewin.ch> References: <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <599323668.10214222.1448332097175.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <565F225A.9020304@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 2 December 2015 at 17:54, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 02.12.2015 15:04, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 24 November 2015 at 08:45, Mark Wickens >> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks for letting us know about this William - I'm sure there is still >>> plenty of interest in Oberon, Modula-2, Modula-3 and other derivatives. >> >> >> >> Was there ever an ARM version? I am wondering how hard it would be to >> port to Raspberry Pi... >> > > Check out http://www.astrobe.com/default.htm Thanks for the info! So, Oberon *Language* yes, but Oberon *operating system* no? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From supervinx at libero.it Wed Dec 2 11:43:38 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2015 18:43:38 +0100 Subject: Searching HP drivers/libraries for E2071/82341 HP-IB Message-ID: <1449078218.3256.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Hi! I'm looking for drivers of E2071/82341 HP-IB ISA card. I think they should be contained in the WNG0202.EXE self extracting archive. Thanks! From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 2 11:54:03 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:54:03 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565F303B.7060708@charter.net> On 12/2/2015 9:50 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Thanks Jay > Yes there's an optical encoder on the other end of the motor. > Depending on the pressure of the roller on the cassette drive wheel it > will deform more or less. > That effectivley changes the diameter and hence the speed. So you need > to set it. > > Its a DC motor so you can control the speed. > Just count the encoder pulses over time and you know what the speed is. > > Did you glue your pressure hose on or was a push fit enough? I think I may have glued them, but I am not sure - I do recall that the fit was pretty tight. > > Regards > > Rod > > > > On 02/12/2015 15:31, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I used orange over black tubing designed for carrying water under >> pressure from Home Depot (here in the US), and then sanded it down to a >> reasonable O.D. size (IIRC). Worked great. >> >> I don't know that the diameter is absolutely critical - I think it has >> some kind of speed encoding. >> >> On 12/2/2015 6:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> Dear List >>> While the silk screeners process the panels I have a >>> couple of days for a little project >>> I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. >>> Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! >>> >>> I know this issue has been addressed before. >>> So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to >>> replace the degraded stuff. >>> The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d >>> A UK source would be nice, >>> >>> Rod >>> > > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 2 11:55:52 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:55:52 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565F30A8.1040303@charter.net> In my case the roller does not distort noticeably - it was pretty stiff material. JRJ On 12/2/2015 10:48 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm sorry for stirring up this hornet's nest. > > I actually meant to ask a real question, and the way I phrased it made a mess of things. The real question: for rubber rollers in this sort of application, does the distortion that occurs significantly affect the circumference? Or is the nature of the material such that it's squished out of shape, but circumference does not change much? > > paul > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 11:50:24 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:50:24 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1D49.4030708@btinternet.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> , <565F1D49.4030708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > Circumference and Diameter are linked by the constant Pi and therefore > are an entity. > Its a little more complex with a rubber wheel and its indented path. Indeed. And that may even depend on the type of 'rubber' used and how it deforms when pressed against the cartridge drive wheel. Remember that the motpr on these drives is mounted on pivots, which allows it to move back as the catridge is inserted. So a soft rubber roller is going to deform more than a hard one. > However as we are using closed loop control > when the measured term equals the target term there you are. I disagree with that. The tacho disk is on the bottom of the motor spindle. So the control electronics will count pulses from that and control the motor voltage to get the _motor_ turning at a constant speed. The drive roller in question is between the motor and the tape drive belt in the cartridge (effectively), so while the motor speed might be constamt and correct, the tape speed need not be if the roller is not right. I wondered about using the 'tyres' used on the idler wheels in VCRs, etc (which are still available). Unfortuantely they are sold by the machine they fit, not dimensions, so I don't know if any are a suitable size. And of course the is no shop that still sells things like that (only mail-order :-() so I can't go in and look at them, make measurements, etc. If the O/D is correct then that is all the really matters. If the I/D is different then it would not be hard to turn a different hub. I'll go back to the first question (as I also have 4 of these drive units, 2 in a standalone TU58, 2 in an 11/730 CPU, that need repairing). Does anyone have a UK source of tubing or whatever that will work -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 11:55:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 09:55:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm sorry for stirring up this hornet's nest. Well, I put "emoticons" in, in a futile attempt to indicate that I was joking. ("emoticon captioned for the humo[u]r impaired") I also hoped that the "in some states" would give a further hint to that. I couldn't resist the humour opportunity, but I did not intend it to be nasty - it is a reasonable question. And, without feeling hurt, I can always count on y'all to catch me up on inaccuracies! :-) > I actually meant to ask a real question, and the way I phrased it made a > mess of things. The real question: for rubber rollers in this sort of > application, does the distortion that occurs significantly affect the > circumference? Or is the nature of the material such that it's squished > out of shape, but circumference does not change much? The question can remain partially inconclusive. If the rubber is shifting without compression, such as if the ID was too large, then the circumference could be partially unaffected, but then the circumference times the RPM of the axis of the roller is no longer the sole determinant of tape motion. Compression will have an effect on EFFECTIVE circumference (the amount the tape gets moved, not the actual measurement around the roller) and remains PI times twice the [compressed] radius of the circular segment at the area of contact. Try to IGNORE the other side of the roller that is not compressed, or imagine if the entire roller were equally compressed, not just the contact patch. That's why I included the explicit example where tire pressure change is/was detected by ABS speed sensors (now often done more directly with TPMS) Here's a similar, but off-topic, one to contemplate: If kids have helium balloons floating against the ceiling of the backseat of your car, which direction do the balloons move when you go around a tight corner? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 11:54:06 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:54:06 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> , <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... times > the diameter. Doesn't that depend on the defintion of 'distance' in that a circle is the set of points in a plane equidistant from a given fixed point? Using the 'normal' definition of distance you do indeed get the above (as most of use have known for many years...) but there are plenty of other ways to define distance. Not that this matters for the TU58 where the above certainly holds. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 12:18:09 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 13:18:09 -0500 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 09:18:56 +0100 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] > > You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one > KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. But I assume you mean homogenic > three-processor machines? > > Who, besides Peter L?thberg, ran threeprocessor machines? > > Also, what are you refering to as PDP-10? KA-10? > > Thanks, > Pontus. > > 1026 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL1099 Tri-SMP Scrapped 12/14/97 1042 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL1099 Tri-SMP Scrapped 12/14/97 1322 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL10 Tri-SMP Michael Thompson From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 12:31:42 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:31:42 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> Message-ID: Is that PEX tubing you are referring to Jay? Any one have ideas for a TU10 or other tape drive capstans? On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > I used orange over black tubing designed for carrying water under > pressure from Home Depot (here in the US), and then sanded it down to a > reasonable O.D. size (IIRC). Worked great. > > I don't know that the diameter is absolutely critical - I think it has > some kind of speed encoding. > > On 12/2/2015 6:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Dear List > > While the silk screeners process the panels I have a > > couple of days for a little project > > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! > > > > I know this issue has been addressed before. > > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to > > replace the degraded stuff. > > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d > > A UK source would be nice, > > > > Rod > > > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 2 12:47:12 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 18:47:12 +0000 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 12:19 AM > On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 02:13:06AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and > You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one > KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. But I assume you mean homogenic > three-processor machines? You assume incorrectly. I mean exactly what it sounds like. > Who, besides Peter L?thberg, ran threeprocessor machines? Lots of places. The folks at Oak Ridge ("Atomic City") ran a 5-processor SMP configuration. > Also, what are you refering to as PDP-10? KA-10? Yes. Eric Smith was incorrect in his identification of the processor as a KI-10. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 13:08:19 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 19:08:19 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1D49.4030708@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <565F41A3.6030005@btinternet.com> Sorry forgot to use feed back from the tape. Usually a timing track or a phase locked loop clock drived from the data stream. Don't worry On 02/12/2015 17:50, tony duell wrote: >> Circumference and Diameter are linked by the constant Pi and therefore >> are an entity. >> Its a little more complex with a rubber wheel and its indented path. > Indeed. And that may even depend on the type of 'rubber' used and how > it deforms when pressed against the cartridge drive wheel. Remember that > the motpr on these drives is mounted on pivots, which allows it to move > back as the catridge is inserted. So a soft rubber roller is going to deform > more than a hard one. > >> However as we are using closed loop control >> when the measured term equals the target term there you are. > I disagree with that. The tacho disk is on the bottom of the motor > spindle. So the control electronics will count pulses from that and > control the motor voltage to get the _motor_ turning at a constant > speed. The drive roller in question is between the motor and the > tape drive belt in the cartridge (effectively), so while the motor speed > might be constamt and correct, the tape speed need not be if the roller > is not right. > > I wondered about using the 'tyres' used on the idler wheels in VCRs, > etc (which are still available). Unfortuantely they are sold by the machine > they fit, not dimensions, so I don't know if any are a suitable size. And of > course the is no shop that still sells things like that (only mail-order :-() > so I can't go in and look at them, make measurements, etc. > > If the O/D is correct then that is all the really matters. If the I/D is different > then it would not be hard to turn a different hub. > > I'll go back to the first question (as I also have 4 of these drive units, 2 > in a standalone TU58, 2 in an 11/730 CPU, that need repairing). Does > anyone have a UK source of tubing or whatever that will work > > -tony From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 13:18:26 2015 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 14:18:26 -0500 Subject: Oak Ridge PDP setups Message-ID: >Lots of places. The folks at Oak Ridge ("Atomic City") ran a 5-processor >SMP configuration. Rich - can you elaborate on this any? Which facility, what was it used for? I've got family from Oak Ridge, and its unusual for my vintage computer / atomic history to intersect like this. Todd Killingsworth From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 13:32:36 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 11:32:36 -0800 Subject: Searching HP drivers/libraries for E2071/82341 HP-IB In-Reply-To: <1449078218.3256.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1449078218.3256.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:43 AM, supervinx wrote: > Hi! > I'm looking for drivers of E2071/82341 HP-IB ISA card. > I think they should be contained in the WNG0202.EXE self extracting > archive. If you go to the Previous Versions tab on this page should be able to find Keysight IO Libraries Suite 14.2 which was the last version to officially support the 82341C interface on Windows XP and Windows 2000. http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2175637&nid=-33330.977662&id=2175637 2006-06-01 14.2.8931.1 USB, LAN, RS-232, 82350A/B, 82357A, E5810A, 82341C, E1406A, E8491B From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 2 13:54:47 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 19:54:47 +0000 Subject: Oak Ridge PDP setups In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F4ED@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Todd Killingsworth Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 11:18 AM >> Lots of places. The folks at Oak Ridge ("Atomic City") ran a 5-processor >> SMP configuration. > Rich - can you elaborate on this any? Which facility, what was it used > for? I've got family from Oak Ridge, and its unusual for my vintage > computer / atomic history to intersect like this. Sorry, all I know about the site is mentions in passing by DEC LCG alumni who worked there at one time or another, in Usenet postings to groups such as alt.folklore.computers. To quote an example: % From: jmfbahciv % Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers % Subject: Re: Status of Arpanet/Internet in 1976? % Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:24:48 -0400 % Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95 % Lines: 29 % Message-ID: % References: <0fa0c23a-1eba-4f86-817b-b81a6e85177d at j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com> % % % <8ba34ebf-84cd-41d9-9b2e-906782595d42 at n2g2000vba.googlegroups.com> % % JMF's first assignment at DEC in 1970 was to make PDP-10s, PDP-11s, % PDP-12, and some IBM machine yak at each other in Oak Ridge. % I don't remember which facility it was; a decade later, the same % site was running a 5-CPU SMP PDP-10 system, and still serving % as the backend to the IBM system. % % /BAH Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 2 15:40:37 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 15:40:37 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> Message-ID: <565F6555.2000001@charter.net> I have no idea what the material is called. I just bought something that was close on the O.D. and I.D. that I thought would work. But, when I look up PEX tubing at Home Depot, I found some stuff with .625" O.D. which is maybe just a tad smaller than what I found, and 0.5" I.D. which seems bigger than what I found. Really, the only way I'd know for sure is if I found the same stuff again - and I'm not 100% sure whether I found it at Home Depot or an Ace hardware store. This stuff has an orange jacket, about 17mm O.D., and a concentric inner black part, with an I.D. of 10mm. There is some kind of cloth mesh in between the layers - I can see signs of the pattern in the outer jacket, and I can see threads from it on the drives I actually used it on. I checked, and I don't see any signs of glue - I probably picked it to match the O.D. of the aluminum hub on the drive and press fit it. I certainly sanded the outer jacket down some - but it does not seem to be much at all - perhaps just enough to rough up the surface some. Whatever I did, it ended up without significant flat spots. I seem to recall rotating it between my thumb and forefinger as I rubbed it against some sandpaper. After the repair, I had good luck reading some Micro VAX diagnostic and Microcode tapes. JRJ On 12/2/2015 12:31 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Is that PEX tubing you are referring to Jay? > > Any one have ideas for a TU10 or other tape drive capstans? > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:31 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> I used orange over black tubing designed for carrying water under >> pressure from Home Depot (here in the US), and then sanded it down to a >> reasonable O.D. size (IIRC). Worked great. >> >> I don't know that the diameter is absolutely critical - I think it has >> some kind of speed encoding. >> >> On 12/2/2015 6:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> Dear List >>> While the silk screeners process the panels I have a >>> couple of days for a little project >>> I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. >>> Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! >>> >>> I know this issue has been addressed before. >>> So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to >>> replace the degraded stuff. >>> The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d >>> A UK source would be nice, >>> >>> Rod >>> >> > From anders at abc80.net Wed Dec 2 13:51:17 2015 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 20:51:17 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:40:08 +0000 > From: Rod Smallwood > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: TU-58 > Message-ID: <565EE6A8.2030004 at btinternet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Dear List > While the silk screeners process the panels I have a > couple of days for a little project > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! > > I know this issue has been addressed before. > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to > replace the degraded stuff. > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d > A UK source would be nice, > > Rod > I'm also intessted in this. I have a dual TU-58 that belongs to my VAX 11/730 that need new capstan rubber. European source... /Anders From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 14:04:55 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:04:55 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Message-ID: Anders, I can fix them, if you look at my Flickr page you can see some examples of new capstans I made.about halfway the site. www.flickr.com/hp-fix And of the HP3000 ;) -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Anders Sandahl" Verzonden: ?2-?12-?2015 20:51 Aan: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Onderwerp: Re: TU-58 > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 12:40:08 +0000 > From: Rod Smallwood > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: TU-58 > Message-ID: <565EE6A8.2030004 at btinternet.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Dear List > While the silk screeners process the panels I have a > couple of days for a little project > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! > > I know this issue has been addressed before. > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to > replace the degraded stuff. > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d > A UK source would be nice, > > Rod > I'm also intessted in this. I have a dual TU-58 that belongs to my VAX 11/730 that need new capstan rubber. European source... /Anders From phil at ultimate.com Wed Dec 2 14:55:45 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2015 15:55:45 -0500 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201512022055.tB2KtjQi047528@ultimate.com> Michael Thompson wrote: > 1026 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL1099 Tri-SMP Scrapped 12/14/97 > 1042 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL1099 Tri-SMP Scrapped 12/14/97 > 1322 TOPS-10 DEC Development Marlboro, MA KL10 Tri-SMP This is almost CERTAINLY derived from the list of CPU (APR) IDs that Alan Martin and I collected, starting at Stevens Tech (reading published SPRs), and continued work on when we were at DEC Marlboro. There are a couple of versions of it at: ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/bucs20-anon/decapr/ I just added a newer (2001) version (the 1985/6 files that HAD been available there didn't have either of these): Looks like NIH had a tri-SMP system: 1378 TOPS-10 NIH Bethesda, Md KL1099 SMPA 1381 TOPS-10 NIH Bethesda, Md KL1099 SMPB 1453 TOPS-10 NIH Bethesda, Md KL1099 SMPC And Southern New England Telephone had one as well (in addition to a dual): 1318 TOPS-10 S. New Eng Tel New Haven, Ct KL1090 SMPC 1364 TOPS-10 S. New Eng Tel New Haven, Ct KL1090 SMPA 1366 TOPS-10 S. New Eng Tel New Haven, Ct KL1090 SMPB From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 15:05:34 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:05:34 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Message-ID: <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> > I'm also intessted in this. I have a dual TU-58 that belongs to my VAX > 11/730 that need new capstan rubber. European source... > > /Anders This is the picture.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9452805294/in/album-72157634959418702/ I'm using a special kind of hose, which is precisely made. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 2 15:28:32 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:28:32 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> , <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > > This is the picture.. https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9452805294/in/album-72157634959418702/ > I'm using a special kind of hose, which is precisely made. OK, what is it called, who makes it, and where can you buy it? -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 2 15:51:37 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:51:37 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> , <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens tony duell > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2015 22:29 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: TU-58 > > > > > This is the picture.. > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9452805294/in/album-7215763495941 > > 8702/ I'm using a special kind of hose, which is precisely made. > > OK, what is it called, who makes it, and where can you buy it? > > -tony > = It's not the first time this discussion comes around.. Poly Urethane rubber, it's called in dutch 'precisie buis/slang' and you can get it in several sizes from 6mm to . large http://www.deboerit.nl/ is my supplier it's a local firm. -Rik From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 2 16:20:22 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:20:22 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> Hi Well it certainly works for you Rik. I dont speak Dutch and its not clear exactly which of the products you refer to. The end of hub appears to have been turned on a lathe. So if you speak Dutch and have a nice big lathe in your shed you can fix your TU58 For us lesser mortals the search goes on. Rod On 02/12/2015 21:51, Rik Bos wrote: > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens tony duell >> Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2015 22:29 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: RE: TU-58 >> >>> This is the picture.. >>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/9452805294/in/album-7215763495941 >>> 8702/ I'm using a special kind of hose, which is precisely made. >> OK, what is it called, who makes it, and where can you buy it? >> >> -tony >> = > It's not the first time this discussion comes around.. > Poly Urethane rubber, it's called in dutch 'precisie buis/slang' and you can > get it in several sizes from 6mm to . large > http://www.deboerit.nl/ is my supplier it's a local firm. > > > -Rik > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 2 16:23:41 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 14:23:41 -0800 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <565F6F6D.7050103@sydex.com> On 12/02/2015 01:51 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > It's not the first time this discussion comes around.. Poly Urethane > rubber, it's called in dutch 'precisie buis/slang' and you can get it > in several sizes from 6mm to . large http://www.deboerit.nl/ is my > supplier it's a local firm. That's curious--when this popped into my inbox, I was in the middle of asking if anyone used PU hose for this purpose. I'll add a caution that PU comes in many durometer ratings and that I don't know what's appropriate for this use. But yeah, the stuff is very common. I'd be surprised if McMaster-Carr didn't sell it. --Chuck From supervinx at libero.it Wed Dec 2 17:08:47 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 00:08:47 +0100 Subject: Searching HP drivers/libraries for E2071/82341 HP-IB In-Reply-To: References: <1449078218.3256.2.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <1449097727.2338.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno mer, 02/12/2015 alle 11.32 -0800, Glen Slick ha scritto: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:43 AM, supervinx wrote: > > Hi! > > I'm looking for drivers of E2071/82341 HP-IB ISA card. > > I think they should be contained in the WNG0202.EXE self extracting > > archive. > > If you go to the Previous Versions tab on this page should be able to > find Keysight IO Libraries Suite 14.2 which was the last version to > officially support the 82341C interface on Windows XP and Windows > 2000. > > http://www.keysight.com/main/software.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=2175637&nid=-33330.977662&id=2175637 > > 2006-06-01 > 14.2.8931.1 > USB, LAN, RS-232, 82350A/B, 82357A, E5810A, 82341C, E1406A, E8491B Thanks! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 17:22:40 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 15:22:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Tony wrote: > Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... times the > diameter. That's of a CIRCLE, and once you deform it, it ceases to be a circle. I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any rational reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never came out even! :-) From bqt at update.uu.se Wed Dec 2 17:27:24 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 00:27:24 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <565F7E5C.1040706@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-03 00:22, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 2015, Tony wrote: >> Mathematically, circumference is PI times diameter or 3.14159..... >> times the diameter. > > That's of a CIRCLE, and once you deform it, it ceases to be a circle. > > > I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any > rational reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never > came out even! :-) You need to measure more of them! You've just been unlucky. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 2 19:01:04 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:01:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F7E5C.1040706@update.uu.se> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> <565F7E5C.1040706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: >> I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any >> rational reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never >> came out even! :-) On Thu, 3 Dec 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You need to measure more of them! You've just been unlucky. OK! I started to wonder whether I needed more bits in my floating point. They just wouldn't resolve in the 24 bits of single precision. Using such a bizarre number is just plain irrational! Seriously, though, in the computer math class, I did make the students manually compute the some bit representations, including PI. I found several students had encountered the same thing that I had run into, of some grade school teachers misinterpreting their textbook and declaring, "PI is about 3.1416 or EXACTLY 22/7"! (insertion of "EXACTLY" was theirs) In fifth grade, I got into a lot of trouble for argueing with that teacher. I think that "tire" is a good term; it implies some of the special issues that come up from compressing from only one side. If you measure the distance from roadway to axle, and imagine a tire that is a perfect circle of that diameter, some of the rotations per mile issues clear up, although obviously not explaining the amount of force required for propulsion relative to what you would need with uncompressible round tire. ("spherical chicken in a vacuum") Tony mentioned selecting based on OD, and then remachining the ID. With my extremely limited machinist skills, I'd be more inclined to look for a match of the ID, and then let elasticity take care of at least part of the OD discrepancy. I've tried to machine rubber. It obviously can be done. But only by somebody more skilled than I. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 22:37:28 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:37:28 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted Message-ID: I have a non-working PDT-11/150, which fails self test 7 (console USART) and when not in test mode, and with autobaud disabled, doesn't send anything to the console. I dumped the ROMs (two 82S2708 1Kx8 PROM for LSI-11 code, three 8316E 2Kx8 masked ROM for the 8085 I/O processor, and one 8316E for the 8085 floppy controller), and I've started disassembling the 8085 ROM code to figure out what the self-test actually does, but it's slow going. It would be really helpful to have a copy (paper or scan) of the Field Maintenance Print Set. Does anyone have it? Thanks! Eric From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 22:40:16 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:40:16 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I might have a hard copy I can loan you. Can you scan a copy for bitsavers? Paul On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I have a non-working PDT-11/150, which fails self test 7 (console > USART) and when not in test mode, and with autobaud disabled, doesn't > send anything to the console. > > I dumped the ROMs (two 82S2708 1Kx8 PROM for LSI-11 code, three 8316E > 2Kx8 masked ROM for the 8085 I/O processor, and one 8316E for the 8085 > floppy controller), and I've started disassembling the 8085 ROM code > to figure out what the self-test actually does, but it's slow going. > > It would be really helpful to have a copy (paper or scan) of the Field > Maintenance Print Set. Does anyone have it? > > Thanks! > Eric > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 2 22:43:55 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 20:43:55 -0800 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I?d sure love to see a copy on bitsavers, one of these days I?d like to try to resurrect mine. So it would be great if someone who can scan the printset would. :-) Zane > On Dec 2, 2015, at 8:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I might have a hard copy I can loan you. Can you scan a copy for bitsavers? > > Paul > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I have a non-working PDT-11/150, which fails self test 7 (console >> USART) and when not in test mode, and with autobaud disabled, doesn't >> send anything to the console. >> >> I dumped the ROMs (two 82S2708 1Kx8 PROM for LSI-11 code, three 8316E >> 2Kx8 masked ROM for the 8085 I/O processor, and one 8316E for the 8085 >> floppy controller), and I've started disassembling the 8085 ROM code >> to figure out what the self-test actually does, but it's slow going. >> >> It would be really helpful to have a copy (paper or scan) of the Field >> Maintenance Print Set. Does anyone have it? >> >> Thanks! >> Eric >> From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 23:22:29 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 00:22:29 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for all the helpful information Glen. I will definately grab that scsi interface when i get the funds, I have a scsi cd drive already to be used with my SGi gear. I removed that cpu board out and took a couple of pictures. There is one connector, on the top, with two notches in it. Same as the controller board I just bought. I would assume that is the DSSI connector? http://postimg.org/gallery/1iafnu1oa/ I have a stockpile of scsi disks over here, i might just need to save up and get the better controller that works with disks as well as cdrom's I've yet to find the battery, but that is next on my list, thanks for the suggestion. --Devin On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 12:03 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 7:25 PM, devin davison wrote: > > > > Just figured id post about it here, to show my progress twords getting > it > > running. > > > > http://postimg.org/gallery/fztxjqbe/ > > Another tip: If you haven't done so already, remove the CPU console > panel and check to see if there is still a NiCad battery pack > installed. The battery pack is mounted under the console panel PCB and > you have to remove a few screws holding the PCB in place to get to it. > If the pack is still installed then remove it. If it hasn't already > started leaking it is only a matter of time before it does and starts > corroding the PCB. > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 23:42:49 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 23:42:49 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just did a quick check and found PDT11/110 and /130 prints, along with VT278. The PDT11/150 could be anywhere. I might have manuals and pocket guides also. When I have time and money, I'll have my librarian come back for a few days. D n On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > I?d sure love to see a copy on bitsavers, one of these days I?d like to > try to resurrect mine. So it would be great if someone who can scan the > printset would. :-) > > Zane > > > > On Dec 2, 2015, at 8:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > I might have a hard copy I can loan you. Can you scan a copy for > bitsavers? > > > > Paul > > > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > >> I have a non-working PDT-11/150, which fails self test 7 (console > >> USART) and when not in test mode, and with autobaud disabled, doesn't > >> send anything to the console. > >> > >> I dumped the ROMs (two 82S2708 1Kx8 PROM for LSI-11 code, three 8316E > >> 2Kx8 masked ROM for the 8085 I/O processor, and one 8316E for the 8085 > >> floppy controller), and I've started disassembling the 8085 ROM code > >> to figure out what the self-test actually does, but it's slow going. > >> > >> It would be really helpful to have a copy (paper or scan) of the Field > >> Maintenance Print Set. Does anyone have it? > >> > >> Thanks! > >> Eric > >> > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 00:59:53 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 23:59:53 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I might have a hard copy I can loan you. Can you scan a copy for bitsavers? Yes. I'd be glad to do that, and mail it back. Thank you! From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 01:02:51 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 00:02:51 -0700 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:47 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Yes. Eric Smith was incorrect in his identification of the processor as a > KI-10. That was a thinko or typo. I knew it was a KA10, I'm not sure how KI10 got into the message. Thanks for the correction. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 01:11:34 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 23:11:34 -0800 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:22 PM, devin davison wrote: > > I removed that cpu board out and took a couple of pictures. There is one > connector, on the top, with two notches in it. Same as the controller board > I just bought. I would assume that is the DSSI connector? > > http://postimg.org/gallery/1iafnu1oa/ > Yes, that is an M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 CPU. The blue connector is the H3602 console panel connector, the bottom grey connector is the memory connector, and the top grey connector with two notches is the DSSI connector. Normally in a BA213 style chassis setup for DSSI disks there would be a white round cable that feeds down from the storage section on top which breaks out into the 50-pin plug to connect to the DSSI controller. It would look similar to the 26-pin cable for the TK70 tape drive, only the cable would be thicker and the connector wider. In your pictures there is 50-pin flat ribbon cable feeding down from the storage section. I'm not sure what that would be doing in your system, that doesn't look like something standard. -Glen From useddec at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 01:22:45 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 01:22:45 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 Field Maintenance Print Set wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what all do you want? On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:59 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > I might have a hard copy I can loan you. Can you scan a copy for > bitsavers? > > Yes. I'd be glad to do that, and mail it back. Thank you! > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 3 01:29:52 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 08:29:52 +0100 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 06:47:12PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 12:19 AM > > > On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 02:13:06AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >> KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and > > > You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one > > KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. But I assume you mean homogenic > > three-processor machines? > > You assume incorrectly. I mean exactly what it sounds like. Wow, that's impressive. How was it done? Was it done with DEC or was it a local "hack"? > > > Who, besides Peter L?thberg, ran threeprocessor machines? > > Lots of places. The folks at Oak Ridge ("Atomic City") ran a 5-processor > SMP configuration. Five! that must have been a sight to behold. Also, thanks to Phil and Michael for their lists. Cheers, Pontus. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 04:02:58 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:02:58 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <001601d12db1$cab3d720$601b8560$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rod Smallwood > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2015 23:20 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: TU-58 > > Hi > Well it certainly works for you Rik. > I dont speak Dutch and its not clear exactly which of the products you refer to. > The end of hub appears to have been turned on a lathe. > So if you speak Dutch and have a nice big lathe in your shed you can fix your > TU58 For us lesser mortals the search goes on. > > Rod > Rod, I don't use the lathe but I use a small dc motor in my vice , most of the time the motor from the drive. I use a "Eze-Lap Fine Diamond Pocket Stone 1" x6" (600)" to make them to the right size. Some times when I have to remove more material I start with Scotch Wet and Dry 150 sanding paper wrapped around the Eze-Lap. It's all about craftsmanship and a steady hand if you keep the motor running at a steady speed about 50% of its nominal voltage everybody should be able to do this. After gluing the rubber to the capstan it takes me about 20-40 minutes to get the rubber to the right size. So you lesser mortals should be able to do this too. For the tubing use something with the right inner size (a little smaller than the hub) the outer size should be a little larger. And look for an industrial hose/rubber supplier both PU and Neoprene should work. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 04:06:16 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:06:16 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F6F6D.7050103@sydex.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6F6D.7050103@sydex.com> Message-ID: <001701d12db2$4062f230$c128d690$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Chuck Guzis > Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2015 23:24 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: TU-58 > > On 12/02/2015 01:51 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > It's not the first time this discussion comes around.. Poly Urethane > > rubber, it's called in dutch 'precisie buis/slang' and you can get it > > in several sizes from 6mm to . large http://www.deboerit.nl/ is my > > supplier it's a local firm. > > That's curious--when this popped into my inbox, I was in the middle of asking if > anyone used PU hose for this purpose. I'll add a caution that PU comes in many > durometer ratings and that I don't know what's appropriate for this use. > > But yeah, the stuff is very common. I'd be surprised if McMaster-Carr didn't sell > it. > > --Chuck It shouldn't be too soft, soft rollers have too much friction. But normal hose grade PU should perform ok. -Rik From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 3 05:57:49 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:57:49 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <001601d12db1$cab3d720$601b8560$@xs4all.nl> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <001601d12db1$cab3d720$601b8560$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <56602E3D.5040701@btinternet.com> Thanks .. That helps. 1. The hub measures about 11mm so I should be able to get a 10mm bore hose on (warm it up a bit might help) . 2. What type of glue is best? 3. You can see how thick the old one was but yours seems a little bigger? 4. From what I have seen on the list the actual outer diameter is 0.625 inches. I calculate that as 15.9 mm Thanks ... Rod Smallwood On 03/12/2015 10:02, Rik Bos wrote: > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rod Smallwood >> Verzonden: woensdag 2 december 2015 23:20 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Re: TU-58 >> >> Hi >> Well it certainly works for you Rik. >> I dont speak Dutch and its not clear exactly which of the products you > refer to. >> The end of hub appears to have been turned on a lathe. >> So if you speak Dutch and have a nice big lathe in your shed you can fix > your >> TU58 For us lesser mortals the search goes on. >> >> Rod >> > Rod, > > I don't use the lathe but I use a small dc motor in my vice , most of the > time the motor from the drive. > I use a "Eze-Lap Fine Diamond Pocket Stone 1" x6" (600)" to make them to the > right size. > Some times when I have to remove more material I start with Scotch Wet and > Dry 150 sanding paper wrapped around the Eze-Lap. > It's all about craftsmanship and a steady hand if you keep the motor running > at a steady speed about 50% of its nominal voltage everybody should be able > to do this. > After gluing the rubber to the capstan it takes me about 20-40 minutes to > get the rubber to the right size. > So you lesser mortals should be able to do this too. > For the tubing use something with the right inner size (a little smaller > than the hub) the outer size should be a little larger. > And look for an industrial hose/rubber supplier both PU and Neoprene should > work. > > -Rik > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 06:49:22 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:49:22 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Yes, that is an M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 CPU. The blue connector is > the H3602 console panel connector, the bottom grey connector is the > memory connector, and the top grey connector with two notches is the > DSSI connector. > > I recently removed the battery from my M7627 KA660 and documented with photos, at the bottom of my 4000-200 restoration thread. Hopefully you will find the visuals useful. I found no similar photos on the web when I attempted the job: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 Bill From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 3 08:25:41 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:25:41 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56602E3D.5040701@btinternet.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <001601d12db1$cab3d720$601b8560$@xs4all.nl> <56602E3D.5040701@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <004901d12dd6$7e5647d0$7b02d770$@xs4all.nl> > Thanks .. > That helps. > > 1. The hub measures about 11mm so I should be able to get a 10mm > bore hose on (warm it up a bit might help) . Yep. > 2. What type of glue is best? I use 2k but in the past I used PU-glue, both works fine. > 3. You can see how thick the old one was but yours seems a little bigger? It's important the tape cassette presses both switches but doesn't reach the bulkhead (right name?). The tape cassette is spring loaded and needs a little room to move (<1mm). Put an tape without cover (just the ground plate) in the drive and you can measure the distance between the drive wheel and the capstan ad a little (about 1mm or less) and got the thickness of the rubber. There is enough tolerance in the electronics, so you have room to experiment. > 4. From what I have seen on the list the actual outer diameter is > 0.625 inches. I calculate that as 15.9 mm, looks good to me. -Rik From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 3 09:38:26 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:38:26 +0000 Subject: Pi (was: Re: TU-58) In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EB03EC-36BE-4AB7-B5F6-2423EBBF8417@swri.edu> On Dec 2, 2015, at 5:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any rational reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never came out even! :-) Howzabout: go to Fort Smith, NT, Canada (or thereabouts, 60? N) Walk or swim as appropriate, measuring distance, due East until you get back to Fort Smith. You got back, so it must have been a circle, yes? Walk or swim to the N. pole, measuring distance again. Compute ratio of distances. I think both Pythagoras and Eratosthenes would be thrilled at the result. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 3 09:46:16 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 15:46:16 +0000 Subject: Pi (was: Re: TU-58) In-Reply-To: <565F7E5C.1040706@update.uu.se> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> <565F7E5C.1040706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <62CEBC86-96A8-4923-988F-224B4921A0FD@swri.edu> On Dec 2, 2015, at 5:27 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > You need to measure more of them! You've just been unlucky. > > Johnny Unfair advantage! Johnny might actually have driven through Hagfors or Uddeholm! (Also 60? N) From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:22:45 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:22:45 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well that works out. I've got a couple Of dssi controllers now. Not sure what that 50 pin cable could have gone to either. I have not opened the top half of the machine yet. Thank you for the pictures of where the battery are. I was looking on the main cpu board itself. Ive yet to take that apart but it is next on my list. I stockpiled a bunch of lithium batteries fror phone handsets when radio shack closed down, they were throwing a bunch of them away. odds are something in the pile will be what i need as a replacement. On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 7:49 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > > Yes, that is an M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 CPU. The blue connector is > > the H3602 console panel connector, the bottom grey connector is the > > memory connector, and the top grey connector with two notches is the > > DSSI connector. > > > > > I recently removed the battery from my M7627 KA660 and documented with > photos, at the bottom of my 4000-200 restoration thread. Hopefully you > will find the visuals useful. I found no similar photos on the web when I > attempted the job: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 > > Bill > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:27:15 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:27:15 -0600 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader Message-ID: A colleague and I are working on getting our respective Fabritek MP-12s working. The MP-12 is an industrial-looking computer with a very limited front panel (deposit doesn't increment PC...gah!) but does emulate most respects of a PDP-8. So far, we've been able to find the device codes for updating the 7-segment LED displays on the front, turning on and off relays, and setting some arbitrary open-collector outputs. It appears as though there is no serial port option on ours, which is unfortunate. There are three 512-by-4 bipolar (configured as 512-by-12) PROMs that seem to override the core memory at the top of the 4k field. If the PROM's value is 7777 octal, the core memory is accessible. Otherwise, you're stuck with ROM, best I can tell. We've dumped the ROMs to verify, but here's the code I've backed out of them, disassembled and labeled where appropriate: *7756 TEMP, 7755 /NOT IN ROM CLA HLT /7602 ADDR, 7755 /7755 STARTING ADDRESS? START, TAD ADDR /1360 GET STARTING ADDRESS? DCA TEMP /3356 SAVE TEMPORARILY LOOP, RRB /6012 GET CHAR CLL RTL /7106 RTL /7006 RTL /7006 ROTATE SO BIT 0 IS IN BIT 7, BIT 4 IN BIT 11, ETC. 6015 /6015 SKIP ON FLAG? JMP .-1 /5367 SNL /7420 SKIP IF LINK IS SET (BIT 6 OF PAPER TAPE IS SET) JMP LOOP /5363 DCA I TEMP /3756 ISZ TEMP /2356 JMP 7755 /5355 7776 /NOT IN ROM JMP START /5361 $ The "NOT IN ROM" indicates that the ROM's value is unprogrammed, so that you can in fact access those core locations. The values I've provided just happen to be what's in my machine's memory at this time. It looks a lot like a RIM loader, except I can't figure out for the life of me what the format should look like. Best I can tell, if RRB ORs the read buffer with the accumulator, you'll never be able to send anything but patterns matching (data & 7737). At least, that's what I've simulated. Due to the fact that they're clearing the link after the second go around, you'd be losing one bit of data. So, maybe this isn't really a program loading routine, but rather just something to store 8-bit values in core? Any other ideas? Thanks, Kyle From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:41:08 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 11:41:08 -0500 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So far, we've been able to find the device codes for > updating the 7-segment LED displays on the front, turning on and off > relays, and setting some arbitrary open-collector outputs. Do you mean the seven segment displays on the paper tape reader? > There are three 512-by-4 bipolar (configured as 512-by-12) PROMs that seem > to override the core memory at the top of the 4k field. If the PROM's value > is 7777 octal, the core memory is accessible. Otherwise, you're stuck with > ROM, best I can tell. So if you jam the PROMs output to 7777 for any address, you can get to all the core (and make the machine useful)? The source for the PROM may be with that CD I gave to Al. -- Will From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 10:47:43 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:47:43 -0600 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 10:41 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Do you mean the seven segment displays on the paper tape reader? > That's correct. There are seven 7-segment displays on the front, with 6 grouped together. It should make for a nice clock. :) You can even add a Sonalert to the output for an alarm, and have a 7-day calendar stored with alarms updated with paper tape! Okay...I surely don't have that much free time. So if you jam the PROMs output to 7777 for any address, you can get to > all the core (and make the machine useful)? > Or you can just remove the PROMs altogether. There's sockets for a total of 2k of PROM. Only 512 bytes are populated in these, though. > > The source for the PROM may be with that CD I gave to Al. > I asked Al a while back, and he seemed to indicate that everything you gave him is up on bitsavers already, which appears to just be the manual. If there is more information out there, that would surely help us. Kyle From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 11:09:27 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 09:09:27 -0800 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> On 12/3/15 8:27 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > A colleague and I are working on getting our respective Fabritek MP-12s > working. The MP-12 is an industrial-looking computer with a very limited > front panel (deposit doesn't increment PC...gah!) but does emulate most > respects of a PDP-8. So far, we've been able to find the device codes for > updating the 7-segment LED displays on the front, turning on and off > relays, and setting some arbitrary open-collector outputs. It appears as > though there is no serial port option on ours, which is unfortunate. > > There are three 512-by-4 bipolar (configured as 512-by-12) PROMs that seem > to override the core memory at the top of the 4k field. If the PROM's value > is 7777 octal, the core memory is accessible. Otherwise, you're stuck with > ROM, best I can tell. > > We've dumped the ROMs to verify, but here's the code I've backed out of > them, disassembled and labeled where appropriate: > > *7756 > TEMP, 7755 /NOT IN ROM > CLA HLT /7602 > ADDR, 7755 /7755 STARTING ADDRESS? > START, TAD ADDR /1360 GET STARTING ADDRESS? > DCA TEMP /3356 SAVE TEMPORARILY > LOOP, RRB /6012 GET CHAR > CLL RTL /7106 > RTL /7006 > RTL /7006 ROTATE SO BIT 0 IS IN BIT 7, BIT 4 IN BIT 11, ETC. > 6015 /6015 SKIP ON FLAG? > JMP .-1 /5367 > SNL /7420 SKIP IF LINK IS SET (BIT 6 OF PAPER TAPE IS SET) > JMP LOOP /5363 > DCA I TEMP /3756 > ISZ TEMP /2356 > JMP 7755 /5355 > 7776 /NOT IN ROM > JMP START /5361 > $ > > The "NOT IN ROM" indicates that the ROM's value is unprogrammed, so that > you can in fact access those core locations. The values I've provided just > happen to be what's in my machine's memory at this time. > > It looks a lot like a RIM loader, except I can't figure out for the life of > me what the format should look like. Best I can tell, if RRB ORs the read > buffer with the accumulator, you'll never be able to send anything but > patterns matching (data & 7737). At least, that's what I've simulated. Due > to the fact that they're clearing the link after the second go around, > you'd be losing one bit of data. > > So, maybe this isn't really a program loading routine, but rather just > something to store 8-bit values in core? Any other ideas? > > Thanks, > > Kyle > I have what sounds like the same machine outfitted with the same interface (basically it looks like a synchronous serial port). I don't have the paper tape reader, though. I appear to have the same PROMs in mine; here's my disassembly from a couple of years back: Addr Data 7757 7602 CLA, HLT / Probably data 7760 7755 / Also data 7761 1360 TAD 7660 / Read starting address 7762 3356 DCA 7756 / Deposit AC (7755) in 7756 7763 6012 / Start high-speed reader operation 7764 7106 CLL, RTL / Clear link, rotate left twice 7765 7006 RTL / twice more 7766 7006 RTL / and again (rotated left 6 bits, bit 7 is in link) 7767 6015 / according to MP-12 docs, a command of "5" indicates "skip if device ready and transfer data" 7770 5367 JMP 7767 / loop until data ready 7771 7420 SNL / skip on link set - end of word? 7772 5363 JMP 7763 / read next if link not set 7773 3756 DCA I 7756 / deposit at address in 7756 7774 2356 ISZ 7756 / increment address, skip if zero 7775 5355 JMP 7755 / jump to instruction loaded at 7755 from tape? 7776 2175 ISZ 175 / data (not in PROM) -- overwritten by tape (JMP to start of routine)? 7777 5361 JMP 7761 / jump to start of routine I haven't spent much more time with it and I've probably screwed up, but to me it looks like it loads in two 6-bit quantities off tape, expecting the 2nd of the two to have bit 7 set; this word is then stored in memory, the address incremented and the next pair loaded. It increments until the write address falls off the top of memory and then (i assume) executes the data at 7776, which I assume would be a JMP to the start of the code loaded from tape... My MP-12 also lacks an async serial interface, I was thinking of building some glue logic to convert from the sync (paper-tape) interface to RS232 (probably with a small microcontroller) so I could load code in, but I haven't gotten around to it yet... - Josh From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Dec 3 11:51:02 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 09:51:02 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive Message-ID: <013301d12df3$2e343010$8a9c9030$@net> So I got my hands on an HP 88780 1/2" Tape Drive from list Member Mark (Thanks!). The drive physically looks to be in good shape but was pretty dirty when I got it. I've cleaned up the drive and powered it up. The good news: The drive powers up. Initially I had trouble getting it to load a tape but that seems to have been resolved. From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Dec 3 12:05:11 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:05:11 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). Message-ID: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> *sorry a copy went out prematurely... So I got my hands on an HP 88780 1/2" Tape Drive from list Member Mark (Thanks!). The drive physically looks to be in good shape but was pretty dirty when I got it. I've cleaned up the drive and powered it up. The good news: The drive powers up. Initially I had trouble getting it to load a tape but that seems to have been resolved. The BOT, EOT sensors are good and the basic drive mechanism (motor, eject, etc.) seem to be working. The bad news: Some of the front panel buttons are not working. Running test 72 shows failure in the unload/rewind and online buttons. Luckily it seems to be a mechanical problem. If I short the switch on the circuit board then the test passes. The switches are mechanical push buttons that are soldered on so should be easy to replace. Anyone know of a good or OEM equivalent replacement? If need be I can get pictures of the buttons off the PCB. The worse news: The tape drive will not read/write. I ran test 01 which per the service manual does a full general checkout of the drive. The test is a conglomerate of other test routines. It fails when it tries to run test 177 (Buffer Write Density ID). This is where I am currently stock and need advice on how to proceed. Any help is appreciated. TIA -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 3 12:08:10 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:08:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pi (was: Re: TU-58) In-Reply-To: <44EB03EC-36BE-4AB7-B5F6-2423EBBF8417@swri.edu> References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com> <44EB03EC-36BE-4AB7-B5F6-2423EBBF8417@swri.edu> Message-ID: >> I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any rational reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never came out even! :-) On Thu, 3 Dec 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Howzabout: go to Fort Smith, NT, Canada (or thereabouts, 60? N) > Walk or swim as appropriate, measuring distance, due East until you get back to Fort Smith. You got back, so it must have been a circle, yes? > Walk or swim to the N. pole, measuring distance again. > Compute ratio of distances. > I think both Pythagoras and Eratosthenes would be thrilled at the result. Thanks to Riemann for removing the IRRATIONALITY of imposing a Euclidean structure! Now, for the fun geometric calculations: What latitude would give you a value of PI of 3.0? (the distance [on a great circle] to the pole would be 1/6 (1/(2*PI)) the circumference of your circle) And, of course, "a spherical chicken in a vacuum", we'll assume that the earth were a perfect sphere. Can I get crowd-funding for the expedition? We could put a plaque there! ("Distance to the pole is x, distance due east all the way back to here is 6x, therefore, right here, PI is 3.0") (I think that Ethan Dicks has been to the southern one) Another calculation that has been bothering me, . . . For a message of length of N bits, it will presumably occur somewhere in PI. Rather than store the entire message, we could, instead, store the number of bits offset into PI where that message first occurs. Acknowledging that PI is random, as far as we are concerned, what would the AVERAGE offset be as a function of N? OB_CC: What were the early significant projects of calculating PI? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 12:27:04 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:27:04 -0500 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Ali wrote: > So I got my hands on an HP 88780 1/2" Tape Drive... > > The bad news: > > Some of the front panel buttons are not working. Running test 72 shows > failure in the unload/rewind and online buttons. Luckily it seems to be a > mechanical problem. If I short the switch on the circuit board then the test > passes. The switches are mechanical push buttons that are soldered on so > should be easy to replace. Anyone know of a good or OEM equivalent > replacement? If need be I can get pictures of the buttons off the PCB. I have been recently cleaning and testing an HP 7980A. I also had problems with some of the mechanical buttons, verified with TEST 72. I was able to clean most of them with contact cleaner and agitation, but the ONLINE button was stubborn. I ended up replacing it with a generic 2-pin tactile switch. I do not know where to get OEM switches of this exact type - they are somewhat taller than cheap tactile switches, and appear to have a solid conductive rubber button/pad instead of a plastic top and metal internals. My defective button has a closed resistance measuring in multiple K ohms. I would also love to hear of a source of replacement buttons of the original style. -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Dec 3 12:45:48 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 10:45:48 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> Message-ID: > On Dec 3, 2015, at 10:05 , Ali wrote: > So I got my hands on an HP 88780 1/2" Tape Drive from list Member Mark > (Thanks!). I bought that drive and a Kennedy 9610 (which I'm keeping for myself) at the recycler who has the System/32. I saw them under a pile and snatched them immediately, hoping they would be useful. Both ended up having SCSI interfaces. I haven't done much with my Kennedy drive yet other than ordering a replacement power switch for it. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:33:33 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 17:33:33 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <565EE6A8.2030004@btinternet.com> <565F0EDA.2060802@charter.net> <565F1356.4090504@btinternet.com> <6BCFBFA6-D4F2-4287-8C3F-752DDB472017@comcast.net> <565F1892.9060906@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > > I tried measuring a whole bunch of circles, and I can't find any rational > reason why dividing the circumference by the diameter never came out even! > :-) Groan! -tony From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 3 13:08:28 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 19:08:28 +0000 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC418A2@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 11:30 PM > On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 06:47:12PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Pontus Pihlgren >> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2015 12:19 AM >>> On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 02:13:06AM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>> KL-10/PDP-10/PDP-6 triprocessor, and KL-10/PDP-10 dual processor and >>> You make it sound like someone hacked up a computer consisting of one >>> KL-10, one PDP-10 and one PDP-6. But I assume you mean homogenic >>> three-processor machines? >> You assume incorrectly. I mean exactly what it sounds like. > Wow, that's impressive. How was it done? Was it done with DEC or was it > a local "hack"? As far as I know, it was a local hack, but if you really care I can ask my friends who were the systems programmers on SAIL back in the day. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 3 11:32:06 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 17:32:06 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl>, <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > Hi > Well it certainly works for you Rik. > I dont speak Dutch and its not clear exactly which of the products you > refer to. > The end of hub appears to have been turned on a lathe. > So if you speak Dutch and have a nice big lathe in your shed you can fix > your TU58 Surely you don't need a big lathe. A small lathe, a Unimat, a Taig/Peatol, etc would be easily big enough to make hubs for the TU58. I hate to say it, but IMHO if you are restoring a classic computer which needs significant mechanical work (drive rollers, pulleys, spacers, tapped bushes, etc) then access to an engineer's lathe (and the ability to use it) is almost essential. -tony From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:15:44 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:15:44 -0600 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> References: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > I have what sounds like the same machine outfitted with the same interface > (basically it looks like a synchronous serial port). I don't have the > paper tape reader, though. Yes, sounds like the same configuration indeed! > I appear to have the same PROMs in mine; here's my disassembly from a > couple of years back: > > Addr Data > 7757 7602 CLA, HLT / Probably data > 7760 7755 / Also data > 7761 1360 TAD 7660 / Read starting address > 7762 3356 DCA 7756 / Deposit AC (7755) in 7756 > 7763 6012 / Start high-speed reader operation > 7764 7106 CLL, RTL / Clear link, rotate left twice > 7765 7006 RTL / twice more > 7766 7006 RTL / and again (rotated left 6 bits, bit 7 is in > link) > 7767 6015 / according to MP-12 docs, a command of "5" > indicates "skip if device ready and transfer data" > 7770 5367 JMP 7767 / loop until data ready > 7771 7420 SNL / skip on link set - end of word? > 7772 5363 JMP 7763 / read next if link not set > 7773 3756 DCA I 7756 / deposit at address in 7756 > 7774 2356 ISZ 7756 / increment address, skip if zero > 7775 5355 JMP 7755 / jump to instruction loaded at 7755 from tape? > 7776 2175 ISZ 175 / data (not in PROM) -- overwritten by tape > (JMP to start of routine)? > 7777 5361 JMP 7761 / jump to start of routine > Yeah, that's identical to mine. Thanks for the confirmation! I haven't spent much more time with it and I've probably screwed up, but to > me it looks like it loads in two 6-bit quantities off tape, expecting the > 2nd of the two to have bit 7 set; this word is then stored in memory, the > address incremented and the next pair loaded. It increments until the write > address falls off the top of memory and then (i assume) executes the data > at 7776, which I assume would be a JMP to the start of the code loaded from > tape... > At first glance, that's what I'd expect it to do too. However, (and more testing is required on my part to confirm) I don't think the 6015 instruction modifies the accumulator at all. If it does, I can foresee this working more or less as you mentioned. However, I can't figure out why after incrementing the pointer located at 7756, it needs to jump to 7755. Presumably that would be the first location changed by the paper tape loading, so if you want to continue loading, wouldn't you want your first instruction on tape to be a jump back to the loader? That's the stumper for me. My MP-12 also lacks an async serial interface, I was thinking of building > some glue logic to convert from the sync (paper-tape) interface to RS232 > (probably with a small microcontroller) so I could load code in, but I > haven't gotten around to it yet... It doesn't look like it'd be too hard. The synchronous interface provides much more support that for just the reader; you also get the relays, 7-segment displays, 8-bit parallel output, and presumably the buttons on the front of the reader unit too. Still figuring out the buttons; I haven't spent much time investigating them just yet. Thanks! Kyle From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:24:54 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 12:24:54 -0800 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:15 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > I have what sounds like the same machine outfitted with the same > interface > > (basically it looks like a synchronous serial port). I don't have the > > paper tape reader, though. > > > Yes, sounds like the same configuration indeed! > > > > I appear to have the same PROMs in mine; here's my disassembly from a > > couple of years back: > > > > Addr Data > > 7757 7602 CLA, HLT / Probably data > > 7760 7755 / Also data > > 7761 1360 TAD 7660 / Read starting address > > 7762 3356 DCA 7756 / Deposit AC (7755) in 7756 > > 7763 6012 / Start high-speed reader operation > > 7764 7106 CLL, RTL / Clear link, rotate left twice > > 7765 7006 RTL / twice more > > 7766 7006 RTL / and again (rotated left 6 bits, bit 7 is in > > link) > > 7767 6015 / according to MP-12 docs, a command of "5" > > indicates "skip if device ready and transfer data" > > 7770 5367 JMP 7767 / loop until data ready > > 7771 7420 SNL / skip on link set - end of word? > > 7772 5363 JMP 7763 / read next if link not set > > 7773 3756 DCA I 7756 / deposit at address in 7756 > > 7774 2356 ISZ 7756 / increment address, skip if zero > > 7775 5355 JMP 7755 / jump to instruction loaded at 7755 from > tape? > > 7776 2175 ISZ 175 / data (not in PROM) -- overwritten by > tape > > (JMP to start of routine)? > > 7777 5361 JMP 7761 / jump to start of routine > > > > Yeah, that's identical to mine. Thanks for the confirmation! > > I haven't spent much more time with it and I've probably screwed up, but to > > me it looks like it loads in two 6-bit quantities off tape, expecting the > > 2nd of the two to have bit 7 set; this word is then stored in memory, the > > address incremented and the next pair loaded. It increments until the > write > > address falls off the top of memory and then (i assume) executes the data > > at 7776, which I assume would be a JMP to the start of the code loaded > from > > tape... > > > > At first glance, that's what I'd expect it to do too. However, (and more > testing is required on my part to confirm) I don't think the 6015 > instruction modifies the accumulator at all. My understanding is that 6015 does modify the accumulator -- from the manual ( http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fabritek/402-1001-00_MP12refMan_1974.pdf ) Function code 5(8) is interpreted as "...if th the addressed device is DONE, the next instruction in sequence is skipped, the contents of the device buffer are inclusive OR'd with the accumulator, and the result is retained in the accumulator..." So 6015 reads the next 8-bit quantity from the paper tape and ORs it onto AC. > If it does, I can foresee this > working more or less as you mentioned. However, I can't figure out why > after incrementing the pointer located at 7756, it needs to jump to 7755. > Presumably that would be the first location changed by the paper tape > loading, so if you want to continue loading, wouldn't you want your first > instruction on tape to be a jump back to the loader? That's the stumper for > me. > Yeah, I was actually just looking at that again and the jump to 7755 is rather odd. I think that's what stumped me a couple of years back and since I never got around to building the interface... I think I just assumed a couple of bits had gone south on my PROMs, to be honest. > > My MP-12 also lacks an async serial interface, I was thinking of building > > some glue logic to convert from the sync (paper-tape) interface to RS232 > > (probably with a small microcontroller) so I could load code in, but I > > haven't gotten around to it yet... > > > It doesn't look like it'd be too hard. The synchronous interface provides > much more support that for just the reader; you also get the relays, > 7-segment displays, 8-bit parallel output, and presumably the buttons on > the front of the reader unit too. Still figuring out the buttons; I haven't > spent much time investigating them just yet. > That's interesting -- on my MP-12, the sync interface brings out (IIRC) three lines: clock, data in, and data out. I'd be interested to know what hardware's hooked up to yours to provide all the goodies you have. - Josh > > Thanks! > > Kyle > From anders at abc80.net Thu Dec 3 14:00:07 2015 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 21:00:07 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <459e99e02faa37ced14dfa386788a812.squirrel@www.sadata.se> Great! We take it off list from here. Very nice work on the HP by the way! /Anders > Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 21:04:55 +0100 > From: Rik Bos > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: RE: TU-58 > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Anders, > > I can fix them, if you look at my Flickr page you can see some examples of > new capstans I made.about halfway the site. > www.flickr.com/hp-fix > And of the HP3000 ;) > > -Rik From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 14:41:36 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 14:41:36 -0600 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 2:24 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > My understanding is that 6015 does modify the accumulator -- from the > manual > ( > > http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fabritek/402-1001-00_MP12refMan_1974.pdf > ) > Function code 5(8) is interpreted as "...if th the addressed device is > DONE, the next instruction in sequence is skipped, the contents of the > device buffer are inclusive OR'd with the accumulator, and the result is > retained in the accumulator..." > > So 6015 reads the next 8-bit quantity from the paper tape and ORs it onto > AC. > Yes, it might very well. I wrote up a bit of code to test it out and don't remember that being the case, but then again, it was late and I was probably not thinking clearly. Yeah, I was actually just looking at that again and the jump to 7755 is > rather odd. I think that's what stumped me a couple of years back and > since I never got around to building the interface... I think I just > assumed a couple of bits had gone south on my PROMs, to be honest. > Well, fear not for bad bits, unless three of these units have failing PROMs. I think the ones in my colleague's unit are from the 1990s. Impressive they were using these units up until then (or considerably after, perhaps!). That's interesting -- on my MP-12, the sync interface brings out (IIRC) > three lines: clock, data in, and data out. I'd be interested to know what > hardware's hooked up to yours to provide all the goodies you have. > Indeed. All of the functions mentioned are all transferred via the synchronous interface. I'm not sure how much decoding is done in the big box versus the little box, but if I were a betting man, I'd say it's mostly done in the big box. The little box has the seven 7-segment displays, a paper tape reader, some arbitrary outputs, and some buttons. There are three removable cards to make it all happen, and the DA-15 connector supplies 120VAC as well as the synchronous data/clock lines to the little box. There's an effort to reverse engineer the little box, then move up to the big box. My colleague has already reverse engineered the 7-segment driver board. It's my goal to get all of this information collected together somewhere where it can be made available to all. I think the size and surprising capability of the Fabritek makes it the most clone-able of the TTL PDP-8s; much of the functionality of a Straight-8 for instance, without the bulk. If we went with surface-mount 7400-series, as well as battery-backed SRAM, there's a good chance we could improve upon the functionality (especially front panel operations!) and add more memory, switchable ROM space, etc. It'll be a pipe dream for now, though. Kyle From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 3 19:47:16 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 01:47:16 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> Hi Tony Thats interesting I had thought about a model makers lathe. I have a pillar drill and the usual set of tools. I did start out as a mechanical engineer and my top subjects at school were metalwork and technical drawing. My metalwork master put me in for those subjects in GCE a year early ie 15 instead of 16. I duly passed and come September and the first metalwork class and I'm already to go. The teacher pounces on me an asks me where the hell do I think I'm going. You passed didn't you? Yes says I. So I got excused school one afternoon a week. Shucks.. My favorite lessons and I couldn't go!!! I only changed to electronics for reasons beyond my control. It looks like a visit to Machine Mart may be coming up. On 03/12/15 17:32, tony duell wrote: > >> Hi >> Well it certainly works for you Rik. >> I dont speak Dutch and its not clear exactly which of the products you >> refer to. >> The end of hub appears to have been turned on a lathe. >> So if you speak Dutch and have a nice big lathe in your shed you can fix >> your TU58 > Surely you don't need a big lathe. A small lathe, a Unimat, > a Taig/Peatol, etc would be easily big enough to make hubs for the TU58. > > I hate to say it, but IMHO if you are restoring a classic computer which needs > significant mechanical work (drive rollers, pulleys, spacers, tapped bushes, etc) > then access to an engineer's lathe (and the ability to use it) is almost essential. > > -tony From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 23:56:42 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 22:56:42 -0700 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: [about KL10/KA10/PDP-6 tri-processor > Wow, that's impressive. How was it done? Was it done with DEC or was it > a local "hack"? Prior to the 1091 and 20xx, all PDP-10 processors used essentially the same memory bus, and the memory boxes were multiported. The necessary hardware configuration might not have been quite as simple as just cabling the three dissimilar processors to the memory boxes, but it probably wasn't too terribly complicated. Getting standard DEC software to run on such a configuration would have required quite a bit of work. DEC supported asymmetric multiprocessing on the KA10 (DECsystem-1055) and KI10 (DECsystem-1077), and possibly on the KL10 (DECsystem-1088). Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) wasn't available in TOPS-10 until some time after the KL10 was available, and for SMP only multi-KL10 systems were supported. I think SAIL ran the WAITS operating system, rather than a DEC OS, though WAITS probably started out as a fork of an early DEC PDP-10 "Monitor". ("Monitor" was the name of the OS before it became TOPS-10.) My understanding is that the SAIL tri-processor configuration was asymmetric multiprocessing. (Not just asymmetric in that the CPUs were different, but also in how I/O devices were configured on them, and which CPU the operating system mostly ran on.) However, I wasn't there and only heard about the system second-hand at best. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 02:48:23 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 21:48:23 +1300 Subject: Long shot: Connection Machine board needed. Message-ID: The chances are slim, but someone may know someone... feel free to contact me off-list. I have a CM-200A; the smallest 'classic' CM machine. I've started a project, with some ex-TMC people (notably the designer of the beautiful chassis the CM machines came in, Tamiko Thiel) to get my machine operational next year, for the 30th anniversary of the launch of the CM. Unfortunately we've hit a complete show-stopper right off the bat. My machine has a complete set of compute node and I/O boards, but is missing the crucial 'NX' board; the board in the CM that interfaces to the front-end. See: http://www.corestore.org/cm2a.htm I need to locate one, or we're dead in the water. I *know* there are people out there who keep a very low profile and have CM hardware squirreled away in their basements. Another possibility, perhaps the best, is to *borrow* an NX board from a non-functional machine in a museum collection, something that will never be more than a static exhibit. Anyone in a position to help or advise, please get in touch. I'm reaching out to former TMC staff and customers by various other routes, but someone here may know something. Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 4 05:41:52 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 11:41:52 +0000 Subject: TU-58 Message-ID: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> Hello All Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing and glued it in place of the nasty black mess. So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the board flashed once and stayed on. I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? Rod From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 06:59:24 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 06:59:24 -0600 Subject: Long shot: Connection Machine board needed. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56618E2C.1020209@gmail.com> On 12/04/2015 02:48 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > Unfortunately we've hit a complete show-stopper right off the bat. My > machine has a complete set of compute node and I/O boards, but is > missing the crucial 'NX' board; the board in the CM that interfaces to > the front-end. Ugh :( What's the nature of the link between the CM and the front-end system? I mean, is there some special card that the front-end also needs, or is it just Ethernet, serial etc.? J. From chrise at pobox.com Fri Dec 4 08:01:05 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 08:01:05 -0600 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <04E66E1F-ECBE-4E78-99DE-AC9EC498F2AD@pobox.com> On December 4, 2015 5:41:52 AM CST, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Hello All > Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing and >glued it in place of the nasty black mess. >So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the board >flashed once and stayed on. > >I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. > >Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? Put a cartridge in and if the belt in the cartridge breaks, it's working ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Dec 4 08:40:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 15:40:51 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <04E66E1F-ECBE-4E78-99DE-AC9EC498F2AD@pobox.com> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <04E66E1F-ECBE-4E78-99DE-AC9EC498F2AD@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20151204144051.GD31539@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Dec 04, 2015 at 08:01:05AM -0600, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On December 4, 2015 5:41:52 AM CST, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >Hello All > > Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing and > >glued it in place of the nasty black mess. > >So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the board > >flashed once and stayed on. > > > >I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. > > > >Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? > > Put a cartridge in and if the belt in the cartridge breaks, it's working ;-) > :-) I seem to recall that the "roller" in the cartridge also turns to goo, might want to check that out also. /P From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 4 09:28:57 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 07:28:57 -0800 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <20151204144051.GD31539@Update.UU.SE> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <04E66E1F-ECBE-4E78-99DE-AC9EC498F2AD@pobox.com> <20151204144051.GD31539@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5661B139.7050509@bitsavers.org> On 12/4/15 6:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > I seem to recall that the "roller" in the cartridge also turns > to goo, might want to check that out also. > Nope, it's hard plastic. They have been known to have crescents worn into them if the tape jams and it can't spin against the pinch roller though. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 4 09:34:43 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 07:34:43 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> Message-ID: <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> On 12/3/15 10:45 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I haven't done much with my Kennedy drive yet other than ordering a replacement power switch for it. > Keep an eye on the tach roller, the rubber degrades. They are nice drives, but they spin fast and are not gentle on tapes. When they work, they do pretty well on 800bpi media. There were a couple of different revs of SCSI board, later ones have bigger buffers that stream better. They also have the advantage over the 88780 that I was able to find complete service manuals for them with schematics. If people really get stuck for parts, I still have a few 88780s buried in storage that I gave up on because I was promised a set of drawings that came indirectly through some mysterious guy in Seattle, but I never got them. From ethan at 757.org Fri Dec 4 09:41:23 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:41:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Long shot: Connection Machine board needed. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a CM-200A; the smallest 'classic' CM machine. I've started a > project, with some ex-TMC people (notably the designer of the > beautiful chassis the CM machines came in, Tamiko Thiel) to get my > machine operational next year, for the 30th anniversary of the launch > of the CM. Kudos! You're the first private collector I've heard that owns a CM! A SGI fanboy friend I think almost scored a CM-2 once but it didn't happen. One CM5 I saw in real life was small and not impressive looking, was a bit let down. Then when I saw the 2nd CM-5 cabinet in real life it was so huge that I realized had I ever found one it wouldn't fit in any normal garage or room. -- Ethan O'Toole From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 4 10:11:00 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 16:11:00 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <5661B139.7050509@bitsavers.org> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <04E66E1F-ECBE-4E78-99DE-AC9EC498F2AD@pobox.com> <20151204144051.GD31539@Update.UU.SE> <5661B139.7050509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5661BB14.3050100@btinternet.com> Yes thats right nothing soft inside the case. On 04/12/2015 15:28, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/4/15 6:40 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> >> I seem to recall that the "roller" in the cartridge also turns >> to goo, might want to check that out also. >> > > Nope, it's hard plastic. They have been known to have crescents worn > into them if the tape jams and it can't spin against the pinch roller > though. > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 10:14:18 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 11:14:18 -0500 Subject: Long shot: Connection Machine board needed. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Unfortunately we've hit a complete show-stopper right off the bat. My > machine has a complete set of compute node and I/O boards, but is > missing the crucial 'NX' board; the board in the CM that interfaces to > the front-end. You may be in real trouble. Ernie at CMS told me once that the cards for talking to a CM (either the CM or the Sun/Symbolics side) were always far less common than the processor boards. When I was at CMS long ago, there were none to be had - just rows and rows of CMs going to the glue factory. -- Will From cctalk at fahimi.net Fri Dec 4 10:58:06 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 08:58:06 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <022b01d12eb4$f2cdce60$d8696b20$@net> > If people really get stuck for parts, I still have a few 88780s buried > in storage that I gave up on because I was promised a set of drawings > that came indirectly through some mysterious guy in Seattle, but I > never got them. Al, If you have donor machines I am interested in some parts - specially the read/write/format board. I will send you an email off list. -Ali From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Dec 4 12:59:15 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 18:59:15 +0000 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC42F72@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2015 9:57 PM > On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > [about KL10/KA10/PDP-6 tri-processor >> Wow, that's impressive. How was it done? Was it done with DEC or was it >> a local "hack"? > Prior to the 1091 and 20xx, all PDP-10 processors used essentially the same > memory bus, and the memory boxes were multiported. The necessary hardware > configuration might not have been quite as simple as just cabling the three > dissimilar processors to the memory boxes, but it probably wasn't too > terribly complicated. > Getting standard DEC software to run on such a configuration would have > required quite a bit of work. DEC supported asymmetric multiprocessing on > the KA10 (DECsystem-1055) and KI10 (DECsystem-1077), and possibly on the > KL10 (DECsystem-1088). Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) wasn't available in > TOPS-10 until some time after the KL10 was available, and for SMP only > multi-KL10 systems were supported. I think SAIL ran the WAITS operating > system, rather than a DEC OS, though WAITS probably started out as a fork > of an early DEC PDP-10 "Monitor". ("Monitor" was the name of the OS before > it became TOPS-10.) > My understanding is that the SAIL tri-processor configuration was > asymmetric multiprocessing. (Not just asymmetric in that the CPUs were > different, but also in how I/O devices were configured on them, and which > CPU the operating system mostly ran on.) However, I wasn't there and only > heard about the system second-hand at best. SAIL did indeed run WAITS, which officially forked from the PDP-10 monitor at 4S72 (Level 4 Monitor, Summer 1972 release), but which began diverging when it was still the PDP-6 Monitor.[1] It supports asymmetric multiprocessing, based initially on the 1055 code[2], though diverging immediately because of the differences between a KA-10 and a Model 166 processor (PDP-6 CPU). Things get more complicated with the introduction of the KL-10 processor. Prior to this, SAIL used non-DEC disks and their own file system, similar but not identical to the DEC Level D[3]; with the introduction of the Massbus, they moved to RP06 and RP07 but kept the SAIL file system. However, they did not adopt the Tops-10 drivers for the Massbus; instead, they modified the TOPS-20 drivers (as of release 5.1) to interoperate with a Tops-10 style system call regimen. At the same time, they made the KL-10 the master in the three-processor system. Because they started with the PDP-6 and continued development until ~1990 (including porting to the Foonly F2 at CCRMA and the KL-10 at Livermore), there was no such thing as a WAITS install tape (or suite). That made getting WAITS running on a system at the museum a long and winding road, an adventure in dissertation level research, and that in turn is why I know so much about the internals and history of the operating system. Rich [1] "Tops-10" was simply a renaming of an operating system which began on the PDP-6 in 1964 and continued in an uninterrupted line of development up through the final release, Tops-10 v7.04 (1988), and maintenance (v7.05, 1993). [2] The PDP-10 monitor, when introduced, came in 5 variants, of which 2 seem to have been vaporware (to use an anachronistic term). These went from a single-user monitor (10/10) up to a timeshared swapping monitor with disks (10/50). This was the version to which AMP ("10/55" " was introduced, and really the only version supported beyond initial release. [3] For example, project-programmer numbers are SIXBIT rather than numeric, even when they look numeric. In a DEC file system, the Master File Directory is [1,1] and in the system that is represented by the octal value 000001000001; in the WAITS file system, the MFD is [1,1] with an internal representation of 000021000021. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 13:16:59 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 13:16:59 -0600 Subject: Fabritek MP-12 Loader In-Reply-To: References: <56607747.5070909@gmail.com> Message-ID: Alright, a lot has happened since 24 hours ago! In summary: 1. 6012 advances the tape one byte but doesn't change the accumulator. 2. 6015 reads the tape buffer and skips when ready. (Josh: you're correct; the manual wasn't lying!) 3. 6052 and 6053 read the buttons and switch on the front panel of the paper tape reader box. 6052 grabs the left four buttons in bits 8 through 11, and 6053 grabs the other five buttons and the switch in bits 4 through 11, with bits 2 and 3 permanently set for whatever reason. 4. With the knowledge of 1. and 2., I was able to get the format for loading arbitrary sequential data into core. I'll explain the format below. 5. By taking DEC's BIN loader and stripping out all unnecessary things (field switching, low speed reader support, etc.), I was able to make a BIN loader for the Fabritek. It works! The RIM format the Fabritek loader expects is something like this: 000 /leader 000 153 /5363 = JMP 7763, stored at 7755. Allows loader to continue running after first deposit 063 1AB /ABCD = Starting address of program to load, minus one, stored at 7756 0CD 1WX /WXYZ = First word of program, stored at starting address specified above 0YZ 1BL /BLAH = more program data 0AH 1BL 0AH 000 /trailer 000 It's important that the starting address specified is one less than the actual starting address, and the starting address can't be zero, as the loader uses ISZ 7756 to increment the address prior to the first store; 7777 will result in zero, causing it to skip, causing it to terminate prematurely. The loader keeps running until it overwrites the JMP 7763 instruction with a halt or something like that. I figure since this was really meant to load a more intelligent loader, like the BIN loader, it should overwrite that instruction with a JMP to the halt prior to the start address of the BIN loader, so that you can just hit the run switch after getting your BIN format tape loaded. So that's what I've done. If you're not loading the BIN loader, but rather something else in lower memory, it'd be a good habit to stop the reader during the trailer, since any other characters (like 377, after the tape has left the reader) will be loaded into core and muddle things up after your program. Might not be a problem for a few words, but eventually, it'll probably do something weird when it starts overwriting 7755...it'd probably take a while though. Best I can tell, there is no way for it to detect the absence of tape in the reader, so it'll happily go on reading 377. Here's the BIN loader with the raw octal dump of the Fabritek RIM format needed for loading it: http://pastebin.com/WiJDU1Bi Doesn't look like these units had the real-time clock option installed. Bummer! I was hoping to get a nice accurate tick for my alarm clock. Guess I'll have to look at adding that myself. Think that's all for now. Kyle From phil at ultimate.com Fri Dec 4 14:52:59 2015 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 15:52:59 -0500 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC42F72@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC42F72@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201512042052.tB4Kqxti011069@ultimate.com> Rich wrote: > [1] "Tops-10" was simply a renaming of an operating system which began on the > PDP-6 in 1964 and continued in an uninterrupted line of development up > through the final release, Tops-10 v7.04 (1988), and maintenance (v7.05, > 1993). Are you sure about the captialization "Tops"? I thought TOPS-10 ran on the DECsystem-10, while TOPS-20 ran on the DECSYSTEM-20. > ....in the WAITS file system, the MFD is [1,1] with an > internal representation of 000021000021. Well, I'll be! From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Dec 4 12:27:59 2015 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 13:27:59 -0500 Subject: TU-58 (TU-10) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151204182759.GA1979@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Wed, Dec 02, 2015 at 12:31:42PM -0600, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Any one have ideas for a TU10 or other tape drive capstans? > I went with http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/. Since the TU10 just wraps the tape around the capstan it needs to be pretty high friction. The material used was a little marginal so after it aged some I had had to put some rubber renew on to increase the friction. I did use various tubing for card reader repair and found the standard stuff wall thickness isn't uniform around the circumference. The TU10 covering is also very thin. I would think you would have to grind it down to get it uniform and proper thickness. My TU10 repair. http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 4 14:11:23 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:11:23 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> , <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > Hi Tony > Thats interesting I had thought about a model makers lathe. > I have a pillar drill and the usual set of tools. I am darn glad I asked for a lathe instead of a car (and driving lessons) when my late father offered to buy me the latter. I still can't drive, but I don't miss that at all... > I did start out as a mechanical engineer and my > top subjects at school were metalwork and technical drawing. Unfortuantely I went to the sort of school that inflicted Latin and (ancient) Greek on its students. Metalwork was certainly a no-no, even physics was frowned upon... But amazingly I managed to get 'electronics' classed as a sport, so while others chased spheres and prolate spheroids, I hand-wired a Z80-based computer, made a simple CRT from scratch and taught myself how to use a lathe.... > It looks like a visit to Machine Mart may be coming up. Hmmm.. the tools they sell have various perjorative names that I will not repeat publically.... The general balanced view is that they can be used for good work, but you need to sort them out first, which may mean access to another lathe and/or metalwork skills (sounds like you have the latter). Personally I would consider a second-hand Myford 7 (if you have the space) or Unimat (one of the old metal ones, of course) if you don't. -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Dec 4 16:10:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 23:10:52 +0100 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <201512042052.tB4Kqxti011069@ultimate.com> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC42F72@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201512042052.tB4Kqxti011069@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <56620F6C.8090204@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-04 21:52, Phil Budne wrote: > Rich wrote: >> [1] "Tops-10" was simply a renaming of an operating system which began on the >> PDP-6 in 1964 and continued in an uninterrupted line of development up >> through the final release, Tops-10 v7.04 (1988), and maintenance (v7.05, >> 1993). > > Are you sure about the captialization "Tops"? > I thought TOPS-10 ran on the DECsystem-10, > while TOPS-20 ran on the DECSYSTEM-20. Rich is correct. It's "Tops-10", but "TOPS-20". Water under the bridge... I can't remember the correct capitalization of DECsystem, though. Maybe that too differed? Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 4 16:58:40 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 22:58:40 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> Hi My late uncle had a Myford in a shed at my Grandmothers house in Norfolk. By the time I was tall enough to use it he had moved it to his house down the road TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS 3100. Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. Regards Rod On 04/12/15 20:11, tony duell wrote: >> Hi Tony >> Thats interesting I had thought about a model makers lathe. >> I have a pillar drill and the usual set of tools. > I am darn glad I asked for a lathe instead of a car (and driving lessons) when > my late father offered to buy me the latter. I still can't drive, but I don't miss > that at all... > >> I did start out as a mechanical engineer and my >> top subjects at school were metalwork and technical drawing. > Unfortuantely I went to the sort of school that inflicted Latin and > (ancient) Greek on its students. Metalwork was certainly a no-no, even > physics was frowned upon... But amazingly I managed to get 'electronics' > classed as a sport, so while others chased spheres and prolate spheroids, > I hand-wired a Z80-based computer, made a simple CRT from scratch and > taught myself how to use a lathe.... > >> It looks like a visit to Machine Mart may be coming up. > Hmmm.. the tools they sell have various perjorative names that I > will not repeat publically.... The general balanced view is that they > can be used for good work, but you need to sort them out first, which > may mean access to another lathe and/or metalwork skills (sounds like > you have the latter). Personally I would consider a second-hand > Myford 7 (if you have the space) or Unimat (one of the old metal > ones, of course) if you don't. > > -tony From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Dec 4 17:53:10 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 23:53:10 +0000 Subject: Triprocessor PDP-10 [Was: Re: [multicians] Emacs humor] In-Reply-To: <56620F6C.8090204@update.uu.se> References: <002e01d12c69$bfbbf710$3f33e530$@q.com> <53F8054A-660C-422A-AB60-78984915439A@swenson.org> <565E4A0C.2050109@jwsss.com> <565E4CD7.7000802@update.uu.se> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3E91F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151202081856.GA23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC3F38E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151203072952.GD23885@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC42F72@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201512042052.tB4Kqxti011069@ultimate.com> <56620F6C.8090204@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC43511@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 2:11 PM > On 2015-12-04 21:52, Phil Budne wrote: >> Rich wrote: >>> [1] "Tops-10" was simply a renaming of an operating system which began on >>> the PDP-6 in 1964 and continued in an uninterrupted line of >>> development up through the final release, Tops-10 v7.04 (1988), and >>> maintenance (v7.05, 1993). >> Are you sure about the captialization "Tops"? >> I thought TOPS-10 ran on the DECsystem-10, >> while TOPS-20 ran on the DECSYSTEM-20. > Rich is correct. It's "Tops-10", but "TOPS-20". Water under the bridge... > I can't remember the correct capitalization of DECsystem, though. Maybe > that too differed? Both DECsystem-10 and Decsystem-10 appear in DEC documents of different dates, the latter possibly appearing in non-LCG documents. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 19:32:06 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:32:06 -0500 Subject: DEC DD11B Message-ID: What is a DD11B backplane for? -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 19:51:00 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:51:00 -0500 Subject: DEC DD11B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:32 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > What is a DD11B backplane for? > > -- > Will > It is a DP11 Peripheral Mounting Panel 4 spc slots 2 df11 slots reference pg 4-68 through 4-71 of the Digital peripherals handbook 1973-1974. DF11 is the serial line interface. -- Bill From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 20:45:18 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:45:18 -0600 Subject: Announcing CBM15 V012 (new Beta release) Message-ID: CBM15 V012 has been released to CSDB, and is currently available for download. http://csdb.dk/release/?id=143468 CBM15 is a telecommunications software, that facilitates direct two-way communications between a Commodore 64 computer and a Teletype Corp. M15KSR (or any other compatible machine). Note that CBM15 follows the 5/N/2 serial protocol, at a fixed line speed of 45.45 baud (22mS signalling period). As with any of these PC-to-TTY setups, an external RS-232 to Current Loop converter is required. This is an initial release, and upcoming releases will add new features and correct a bug or two. So.. am I the only one on the list(s) with a C-64 and an M15 on hand? If you have the required hardware, please give it a try - so far, I've had no feedback from any other 'real' M15 owner.. Thanks! From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Dec 4 19:30:06 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 20:30:06 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: I used my PDP-8/e at home to test the RX8E controller and the RX01 floppies that came with the PDP-12. Both worked OK. We found a bad SP380 on a M7102 board in the DW8E the Omnibus expansion chassis. This would not let the SKIP instructions work with the RX8E, RK05, or PC8E. Once we replaced the SP380 we were able to boot OS/8 from an RX01 floppy. This may be the only PDP-12 to ever do that. -- Michael Thompson From jws at jwsss.com Sat Dec 5 01:04:10 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 23:04:10 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/15 or 11/20 frame powersupply and backplane Message-ID: <56628C6A.3090704@jwsss.com> I'm looking for any of these, starting with most essentially the backplane. power supply next, then frame if anyone has one that is empty looking for some filling. Thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 01:53:23 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 01:53:23 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/15 or 11/20 frame powersupply and backplane In-Reply-To: <56628C6A.3090704@jwsss.com> References: <56628C6A.3090704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, I think the box is a BA11-E and a H720 PS, if you want to keep it original. I don't think I have any spare parts right now, but I have a lot to go through yet. Paul On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 1:04 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > I'm looking for any of these, starting with most essentially the backplane. > > power supply next, then frame if anyone has one that is empty looking for > some filling. > > Thanks > Jim > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 5 02:22:06 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 03:22:06 -0500 Subject: I need to bring up a 11/20 shall I use a variac!? Message-ID: <238579.6c3a6a00.4393f8ae@aol.com> I need to bring up a 11/20 shall I use a variac!? added core.... where can I find if I decide to add to it? ed sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 5 02:24:05 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 03:24:05 -0500 Subject: I need to bring up a 11/20 shall I use a variac!? Message-ID: <2387fa.34812c14.4393f925@aol.com> I need to bring up a 11/20 shall I use a variac!? added core.... where can I find if I decide to add to it? ed sharpe _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) (resent with address corrections) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 06:29:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 12:29:36 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> , <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > > TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS 3100. > Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. Actually the TU58 serial port has the differential driver and receivers used on the later serial ports. It should talk to DECs version of RS423 with no problems at all. What sofrware are you using to drive it? -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 5 09:51:39 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 15:51:39 -0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II Message-ID: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However, I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the memory? Incidentally, as I have mentioned before, I have drawn out the schematics for the H7864 PSU. The schematics are drawn illogically, with mistakes almost certainly still there, but the Primary side I think is more reasonable now. Is there a good place to post these? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 5 09:54:03 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 15:54:03 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5663089B.5030506@btinternet.com> Hi At the moment I have it connected to an old laptop running msdos and gizmos driver for same. Its showing signs of life at 38400. I have BOB in circuit and can see the commands going to it. Some times it responds and sometimes it does not. Rod On 05/12/15 12:29, tony duell wrote: >> TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS 3100. >> Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. > Actually the TU58 serial port has the differential driver and receivers used > on the later serial ports. It should talk to DECs version of RS423 with no > problems at all. > > What sofrware are you using to drive it? > > -tony From bqt at update.uu.se Sat Dec 5 10:15:33 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 17:15:33 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56630DA5.9090704@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-05 13:29, tony duell wrote: > >> >> TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS 3100. >> Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. > > Actually the TU58 serial port has the differential driver and receivers used > on the later serial ports. It should talk to DECs version of RS423 with no > problems at all. Not only that, but you can normally go between 232 and 423 with no problem. I suspect there is something else wrong with the port, or the software... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 10:17:51 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:17:51 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56630DA5.9090704@update.uu.se> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> , <56630DA5.9090704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > > > >> TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS 3100. > >> Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. > > > > Actually the TU58 serial port has the differential driver and receivers used > > on the later serial ports. It should talk to DECs version of RS423 with no > > problems at all. > > Not only that, but you can normally go between 232 and 423 with no > problem. I suspect there is something else wrong with the port, or the > software... So do I.... Firstly, what are the jumpers on the TU-58 board? The default is 38400 baud, which is probably why Rod sees it doing something sometimes at that baud rate. A lot of laptop serial ports (and USB-serial converters) are marginal at best. I've had ones that won't drive the capacitance of a couple of metres of cable reliably at 4800 baud, let alone 38400 baud. If it were mine I'd be looking at exactly what was flowing into the UART on the TU58 with a logic analyser. -tony From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 5 10:26:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 16:26:28 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56630DA5.9090704@update.uu.se> References: <1ee18eb18b76bb83bb0ebae8115a5cfe.squirrel@www.sadata.se> <003501d12d45$30154a30$903fde90$@xs4all.nl> <004001d12d4b$9f1b7930$dd526b90$@xs4all.nl> <565F6EA6.6010305@btinternet.com> <5660F0A4.7000000@btinternet.com> <56621AA0.2030500@btinternet.com> <56630DA5.9090704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <56631034.6080105@btinternet.com> And we have a runner.. it was set for 19.2k A quick change of config.sys and off we go. I have only one cartridge so no tape to tape Pc to tape works. So now to find one of my systems with a spare serial port R On 05/12/15 16:15, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-12-05 13:29, tony duell wrote: >> >>> >>> TU58 's is ready to test. I tried it in a spare serial port on a VS >>> 3100. >>> Result nothing. I suspect the port is 423 and the tu58 232. >> >> Actually the TU58 serial port has the differential driver and >> receivers used >> on the later serial ports. It should talk to DECs version of RS423 >> with no >> problems at all. > > Not only that, but you can normally go between 232 and 423 with no > problem. I suspect there is something else wrong with the port, or the > software... > > Johnny > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 5 12:03:17 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 12:03:17 -0600 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However, I > think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple and 5V > looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the memory? I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it. I think the +/- 12 V is only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics boards. I would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very precise. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 5 12:29:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 18:29:04 -0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However, > > I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple > > and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the > memory? > I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it. I think the +/- 12 V is > only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics boards. I > would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very > precise. > > Jon There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, even if it doesn't affect the memory? Regards Rob From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Dec 5 12:36:47 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 19:36:47 +0100 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk Message-ID: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, has anyone ever heard of Evotek ET-5800 series Winchester harddisks? I wonder which interface they have. I'm looking for a replacement of a CDC FINCH 9410 and wonder if they would be a possible replacement. ET-5800: http://www.ebay.de/itm/252174622907 CDC-FINCH: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/CDC_9410_Finch_Brochure_Mar81.pdf Oliver From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 13:12:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:12:53 -0800 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56633735.70200@sydex.com> On 12/05/2015 10:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > has anyone ever heard of Evotek ET-5800 series Winchester harddisks? > I wonder which interface they have. I'm looking for a replacement of > a CDC FINCH 9410 and wonder if they would be a possible replacement. > > ET-5800: http://www.ebay.de/itm/252174622907 > > CDC-FINCH: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/CDC_9410_Finch_Brochure_Mar81.pdf The Evotek 5000 series is a bog-standard ST-506/ST-412 "MFM" interface. OEM manual is on Manx: http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/harte/Evotek/ET-5000%20Family%20OEM%20Manual.pdf Back in 1983 I had an opportunity to play with one. Pretty interesting, but very expensive, as I recall--and not terribly reliable. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 13:12:22 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 19:12:22 +0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com>, <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > > There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, even if > it doesn't affect the memory? Often a spike on a particular output of an SMPSU is caused by a high ESR capacitor on that output. It's worth checking them. FWIW, old DRAMs, up to about 16Kbit size, often used +12V and -5V as well as +5V. Later/larger DRAMs are +5V only. I doubt you'll find any of the former in a VAX after early 11/700-series. -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 5 13:18:56 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 13:18:56 -0600 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> On 12/05/2015 12:29 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson >> Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03 >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- >> Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II >> >> On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >>> I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However, >>> I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple >>> and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the >> memory? >> I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it. I think the +/- > 12 V is >> only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics boards. I >> would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very >> precise. >> >> Jon > There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, even if > it doesn't affect the memory? > > How BIG a spike? In a lot of these power supplies, they don't regulate the "auxiliary" voltages. So, whatever power is needed to be sent to the main voltage, the aux. windings just tap off some of that energy. If the flux produces the right voltage on the +5V (with so many turns on that winding) then they put a few more turns on the 12 V windings, and assume it should track FAIRLY well. But, maybe during the power-up surge, charging all the caps on the +5 network, the +12 might surge a bit. I built my own power system on my uVAX-II system, and had separate supplies for +5 and +12 (mostly for the disk drives). One day the 12 V supply went haywire, and I had inadvertently disabled the crowbar circuit. It went up to 22 V and damaged the disk drive and blew caps and the RS-232 driver on the CPU board. The disk drive worked for another week, and then totally croaked. I ordered the parts for the serial transmitter and got it fixed fairly easily. (He he, glad I had that print set!) So, I can say that if the spike gets close to 22 V, that would be real bad. Jon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 5 13:19:44 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 19:19:44 +0000 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <56633735.70200@sydex.com> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net>, <56633735.70200@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > The Evotek 5000 series is a bog-standard ST-506/ST-412 "MFM" interface. > OEM manual is on Manx: > > http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/harte/Evotek/ET-5000%20Family%20OEM%20Manual.pdf > > Back in 1983 I had an opportunity to play with one. Pretty interesting, > but very expensive, as I recall--and not terribly reliable. I've skimmed that manual and wonder why they are 'pretty interesting'. What have I missed? -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 5 13:49:15 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 19:49:15 -0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 05 December 2015 19:19 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > On 12/05/2015 12:29 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon > >> Elson > >> Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03 > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > >> Off- Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > >> > >> On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >>> I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. > >>> However, I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked > >>> the ripple and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V > >>> supply used by the > >> memory? > >> I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it. I think > >> the +/- > > 12 V is > >> only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics > >> boards. I would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V > >> supplies is not very precise. > >> > >> Jon > > There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, > > even if it doesn't affect the memory? > > > > > How BIG a spike? In a lot of these power supplies, they don't regulate the > "auxiliary" voltages. So, whatever power is needed to be sent to the main > voltage, the aux. windings just tap off some of that energy. If the flux > produces the right voltage on the +5V (with so many turns on that > winding) then they put a few more turns on the 12 V windings, and assume it > should track FAIRLY well. But, maybe during the power-up surge, charging all > the caps on the +5 network, the +12 might surge a bit. > > I built my own power system on my uVAX-II system, and had separate > supplies for +5 and +12 (mostly for the disk drives). One day the 12 V supply > went haywire, and I had inadvertently disabled the crowbar circuit. It went > up to > 22 V and damaged the disk drive and blew caps and the RS-232 driver on the > CPU board. The disk drive worked for another week, and then totally > croaked. I ordered the parts for the serial transmitter and got it fixed fairly > easily. (He he, glad I had that print set!) > > So, I can say that if the spike gets close to 22 V, that would be real bad. > > Jon I would have to measure again, but I don't think it was anywhere near that big a spike. I did measure the ESR on the capacitor on that output and it seems OK, although marginally higher than the same cap on some of the other outputs, so I am thinking of replacing it anyway. As the 5V seems fine, the ripple seemed to be about 20mV (although I am going to check again), I do wonder what could be causing the memory modules to appear to be failing. I am hoping that re-seating will cure it. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 5 13:55:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 11:55:47 -0800 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56634143.2030108@sydex.com> On 12/05/2015 11:19 AM, tony duell wrote: > I've skimmed that manual and wonder why they are 'pretty interesting'. What > have I missed? For the time (1982), they were larger than almost any other ST506-interfaced 5.25' drives. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 5 17:01:46 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 23:01:46 -0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <05a801d12fb0$ea933300$bfb99900$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 05 December 2015 19:49 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; > General at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon > > Elson > > Sent: 05 December 2015 19:19 > > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > > Off- Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > > > On 12/05/2015 12:29 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > >> Jon Elson > > >> Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03 > > >> To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and > > >> Off- Topic Posts > > >> Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > >> > > >> On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >>> I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. > > >>> However, I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked > > >>> the ripple and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V > > >>> supply used by the > > >> memory? > > >> I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it. I think > > >> the +/- > > > 12 V is > > >> only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics > > >> boards. I would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V > > >> supplies is not very precise. > > >> > > >> Jon > > > There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, > > > even if it doesn't affect the memory? > > > > > > > > How BIG a spike? In a lot of these power supplies, they don't > > regulate > the > > "auxiliary" voltages. So, whatever power is needed to be sent to the > > main voltage, the aux. windings just tap off some of that energy. If > > the flux produces the right voltage on the +5V (with so many turns on > > that > > winding) then they put a few more turns on the 12 V windings, and > > assume > it > > should track FAIRLY well. But, maybe during the power-up surge, > > charging > all > > the caps on the +5 network, the +12 might surge a bit. > > > > I built my own power system on my uVAX-II system, and had separate > > supplies for +5 and +12 (mostly for the disk drives). One day the 12 > > V > supply > > went haywire, and I had inadvertently disabled the crowbar circuit. > > It > went > > up to > > 22 V and damaged the disk drive and blew caps and the RS-232 driver on > > the CPU board. The disk drive worked for another week, and then > > totally croaked. I ordered the parts for the serial transmitter and > > got it fixed > fairly > > easily. (He he, glad I had that print set!) > > > > So, I can say that if the spike gets close to 22 V, that would be real > bad. > > > > Jon > > I would have to measure again, but I don't think it was anywhere near that > big a spike. I did measure the ESR on the capacitor on that output and it > seems OK, although marginally higher than the same cap on some of the > other outputs, so I am thinking of replacing it anyway. > > As the 5V seems fine, the ripple seemed to be about 20mV (although I am > going to check again), I do wonder what could be causing the memory > modules to appear to be failing. I am hoping that re-seating will cure it. > > Regards > > Rob Checked ripple again and 5V is fine, and 12V is actually not that big. Putting the memory back in, it started to work. So it just needed re-seating. Phew! It all works now, I have a working rtVAX 1000. Now it is time to find out what it can do. Regards Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 5 17:40:04 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2015 17:40:04 -0600 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566375D4.4030307@pico-systems.com> On 12/05/2015 01:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > As the 5V seems fine, the ripple seemed to be about 20mV > (although I am going to check again), I do wonder what > could be causing the memory modules to appear to be > failing. I am hoping that re-seating will cure it. Regards > Rob I ran a uVAX-II for 21 years here in my house. It was HOT STUFF when I first got it in 1986! By 2007, it was the slowest computer in the house. It ran continuously during that period (at the end, it was only running a home environmental monitoring program, or I would have shut it down earlier.) Anyway, after some years of flawless operation, I started getting crashes every couple months. When it would hang, I would power down and re-seat all the boards. It seems like it was usually a failure of one of the grant chains (either interrupt or DMA) and the disk controller would not be able to transfer. Every once in a while I'd pull all the boards and vacuum out the backplane and gently vacuum off the boards. That sort of helped, maybe. The external UVII memory also had ribbon cables across the boards. Rough handling of these cables can cause intermittents. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 5 18:18:06 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 00:18:06 -0000 Subject: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <566375D4.4030307@pico-systems.com> References: <054101d12f74$d4a68650$7df392f0$@ntlworld.com> <566326E5.7080504@pico-systems.com> <055e01d12f8a$d2534580$76f9d080$@ntlworld.com> <566338A0.3030902@pico-systems.com> <058101d12f96$05b54260$111fc720$@ntlworld.com> <566375D4.4030307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <05c801d12fbb$9478a760$bd69f620$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 05 December 2015 23:40 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II > > On 12/05/2015 01:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > As the 5V seems fine, the ripple seemed to be about 20mV (although I > > am going to check again), I do wonder what could be causing the memory > > modules to appear to be failing. I am hoping that re-seating will cure > > it. Regards Rob > I ran a uVAX-II for 21 years here in my house. It was HOT STUFF when I first > got it in 1986! By 2007, it was the slowest computer in the house. It ran > continuously during that period (at the end, it was only running a home > environmental monitoring program, or I would have shut it down earlier.) > > Anyway, after some years of flawless operation, I started getting crashes > every couple months. When it would hang, I would power down and re-seat > all the boards. It seems like it was usually a failure of one of the grant chains > (either interrupt or DMA) and the disk controller would not be able to > transfer. Every once in a while I'd pull all the boards and vacuum out the > backplane and gently vacuum off the boards. That sort of helped, maybe. > > The external UVII memory also had ribbon cables across the boards. Rough > handling of these cables can cause intermittents. > > Jon Yes, when I took the board out I noticed that the connector of the ribbon was not fully inserted, although it seemed solid enough. So when I put it all back together, I really made sure that the board was fully seated and the ribbon cable connectors fully pressed home. I'll make doubly sure of this in future. For anyone else's reference, this led to SCBINT errors from the console firmware while trying to boot. Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 03:26:03 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 02:26:03 -0700 Subject: double density floppy cable adapter for Intel Series II or III MDS Message-ID: Last month I made a trivial little cable adapter PCB to use with the Intel SBC 202 double-density M2FM floppy controller in an Intel Series II or III MDS (normally part of an MDS 720 subsystem). The usual SBC 202 cabling has two DC37S connectors on the MDS back panel, one for drives 0 and 1, and the other for drives 2 and 3. (There's a variant that has a ribbon cable to the internal drive as 0, and only one DC37S for drives 2 and 3.) Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157659736489274 Schematic and board layout in Eagle and PDF: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/mds/mds-fd-adapter/ The adapter has no active electronics; it just wires a DC37P to a 50-pin header for a cable to one or two normal 8-inch floppies. I just got around to testing it yesterday, and was pleasantly surprised that my SBC 202 and the adapter worked on the first attempt. The SBC 202 was of unknown provenance so I didn't actually have much expectation of it working. I haven't yet tried more than one drive on it. Intel used radial ready signals from the drives, so the drive(s) have to be configured slightly differently than the factory defaults to be fully compatible with the MDS 720. I have one spare bare adapter PCB which can be made available for $5.95 plus shipping from Colorado if anyone else needs such a thing. I am NOT willing to source the connectors or assemble the boards. You can also order them in increments of three pieces directly from OSH Park: https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/AO0DZTr1 If there's demand for a few units, I can have a small run made in China very inexpensively, probably under $4 each plus shipping from Colorado. Richard Main has made fancier adapter PCBs that also support 34-pin cabling for the use of high-density 5.25 or 3.5 inch disks. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 08:16:45 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 09:16:45 -0500 Subject: Appraisal for Donation Message-ID: The PDP-12 donor to the RICM needs an appraisal for the charitable donation. I already suggested Vintage Tech. Any other suggestions? -- Michael Thompson From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Dec 6 11:27:59 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 12:27:59 -0500 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> >On Friday, December 4th, 2015 at 11:41 A.M. GMT (6:41 A.M. EST) Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hello All > Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing and > glued it in place of the nasty black mess. > So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the board > flashed once and stayed on. > > I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. > > Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? As expected, my approach will always be based on using RT-11. There are DD(X).SYS device drivers available up to V05.04G of RT-11. If you are able to boot one of those versions and you manage to connect the null-modem cable between the DL and the TU-58, you should be able to read and write to the TU-58 device. If you don't have a cabinet kit, then use whatever is needed at both ends. If your cable is 10-pin at each end, then disconnect the 10-pin cable to the cabinet kit for that DL port and connect the cable directly to the DLV11-J. Note that under RT11XM, I believe it is necessary to first LOAD the DDX device handler as in: LOAD DD: In addition, even before that, you must match the CSR and VECTOR with the DL port you are using. On a Qbus system with a DLV11-J, usually the first DL port is: SET DD CSR=176500 SET DD VECTOR=300 On a PDP-11/23, there is an extra port at: SET DD CSR=177570 SET DD VECTOR=70 if I remember correctly. With a Unibus system, I am not sure, but the values will be similar. Let us know what happens. Don't forget that the TU58 is a very slow serial tape device, not a disk drive even though the RT-11 software thinks that there is a small disk drive being used. Jerome Fine From Mark at Misty.com Sun Dec 6 12:24:18 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 13:24:18 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151206182418.GA26107@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Devin, I upgraded my 3300 to a KA660 CPU and a CQD SCSI controller. If you are patient, sometimes QBUS SCSI controllers show up on e-bay much cheaper than the reqularly listed several hundred dollar ones. I paid around $75. As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk drives. I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts. Mark On Thu, Dec 03, 2015 at 12:22:29AM -0500, devin davison wrote: > Thank you for all the helpful information Glen. I will definately grab > that scsi interface when i get the funds, I have a scsi cd drive already to > be used with my SGi gear. > > I removed that cpu board out and took a couple of pictures. There is one > connector, on the top, with two notches in it. Same as the controller board > I just bought. I would assume that is the DSSI connector? > > http://postimg.org/gallery/1iafnu1oa/ > > I have a stockpile of scsi disks over here, i might just need to save up > and get the better controller that works with disks as well as cdrom's > > I've yet to find the battery, but that is next on my list, thanks for the > suggestion. > > > --Devin > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 12:03 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 7:25 PM, devin davison wrote: > > > > > > Just figured id post about it here, to show my progress twords getting > > it > > > running. > > > > > > http://postimg.org/gallery/fztxjqbe/ > > > > Another tip: If you haven't done so already, remove the CPU console > > panel and check to see if there is still a NiCad battery pack > > installed. The battery pack is mounted under the console panel PCB and > > you have to remove a few screws holding the PCB in place to get to it. > > If the pack is still installed then remove it. If it hasn't already > > started leaking it is only a matter of time before it does and starts > > corroding the PCB. > > -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 6 12:53:10 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 10:53:10 -0800 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: <20151206182418.GA26107@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20151206182418.GA26107@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <56648416.2050905@sydex.com> On 12/06/2015 10:24 AM, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk > drives. Same here--using an old system that's brought out only once every few years only to have its hard drive quit working (or working after a few smart raps on the HDA with a small mallet) isn't what I look forward to. I'm using CF on a lot of my old PCs now. No problems at all. One of these days, I'll get around to doing something for the other non-PC machines. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Dec 6 14:57:49 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 21:57:49 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? Message-ID: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I've built a Harddisk-Controller-Emulator for my system which accesses a IDE (PATA) harddisk with an ATMega in PIO mode. It works like a charm except for one WD harddisk. The harddisk itself works fine with MS-DOS 6.22 and FreeBSD but refuses to work with my ATMega. On reading or writing a sector, right after the command is issued, the error bit is set in the status register, and the error register indicates an ABRT. # ABRT: # indicates the requested command has been aborted due to a # drive status error (such as not ready or write fault) or because # the command is invalid. Right after power up and after the disk got ready, I issue the IDENTIFY command and read the data back which works perfectly. After that I read sector 0 and this fails. I use LBA since the harddisk states that is supportes LBA. Nevertheless I also tried accessing the harddisk with CHS mode and got the same error. I tested other harddisks which support either CHS+LBA or CHS only. All of them work perfectly. What happens after powerup to read block 0 of the disk in LBA mode: - Setup AVR ports and so on - wait until RDY gets high - wait until BSY gets low - issue a Drive/Head register Command with value 0 - wait until BSY gets low - issue a Command Register Command with value 0xEC (identify device) - *read data* - process and print out data - wait until BSY gets low - issue a Sector Count register Command with value 0 - issue a Sector Number register Command with value 0 - issue a Cylinder Low register Command with value 0 - issue a Cylinder High register Command with value 0 - issue a Drive/Head register Command with 0 + 0xE0 (LBA, Drive 0) - issue a Command Register Command with value 0x20 (Read Sector) - *read data* *read data*: - wait until BSY gets low - check ERR bit in the Status register <- set on cmd 0x20 here - wait until DRQ gets high - issue a Data register Command with no data - put /RD on low - read 512 bytes of data - put /RD on high - check ERR bit in the Status register Issuing a Command works always like setting /CS0, /CS1, /DA0, /DA1, /DA2 to low, and then set the needed signals to high so the desired command is indicated. When data has to be transfered with this command, the lower 8 bits are put then onto the port, /WR is set to low afterwards, 3 nop() are done and /WR is set back to high. Does anyone see an error what could make the drive behave like I said? - ATA IDENTIFY works, and the drives data can be read - after a read or write sector command is issued, the status register directly goes 0xd0 (busy) and with the 2nd fetch 0x59 (not busy, drq set, err set) Regards, Oliver From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 6 15:10:40 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 15:10:40 -0600 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> On 12/06/2015 02:57 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > I've built a Harddisk-Controller-Emulator for my system > which accesses > a IDE (PATA) harddisk with an ATMega in PIO mode. It works > like a charm > except for one WD harddisk. The harddisk itself works fine > with MS-DOS > 6.22 and FreeBSD but refuses to work with my ATMega. > > On reading or writing a sector, right after the command is > issued, the > error bit is set in the status register, and the error > register indicates > an ABRT. > I don't have any specific knowledge of this, but it has to be a timing problem. Something about the timing of the command signals is just different enough that the drive thinks this is wrong. Sorry I can't give more specific help. Jon From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Dec 6 15:14:39 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 22:14:39 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/06/2015 02:57 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I've built a Harddisk-Controller-Emulator for my system which accesses >> a IDE (PATA) harddisk with an ATMega in PIO mode. It works like a charm >> except for one WD harddisk. The harddisk itself works fine with MS-DOS >> 6.22 and FreeBSD but refuses to work with my ATMega. >> >> On reading or writing a sector, right after the command is issued, the >> error bit is set in the status register, and the error register indicates >> an ABRT. >> > I don't have any specific knowledge of this, but it has to be a > timing problem. > Something about the timing of the command signals is just different > enough that the drive thinks this is wrong. Sorry I can't give more > specific help. Thought the same and added some 400ns sleeps between each of the cylinder, sector, head commands and before I executed the read command... without success :( From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Dec 6 15:39:04 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 16:39:04 -0500 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5664AAF8.6000000@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-12-06 4:14 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Jon Elson wrote: > >> On 12/06/2015 02:57 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> I've built a Harddisk-Controller-Emulator for my system which accesses >>> a IDE (PATA) harddisk with an ATMega in PIO mode. It works like a charm >>> except for one WD harddisk. The harddisk itself works fine with MS-DOS >>> 6.22 and FreeBSD but refuses to work with my ATMega. >>> >>> On reading or writing a sector, right after the command is issued, the >>> error bit is set in the status register, and the error register >>> indicates >>> an ABRT. >>> >> I don't have any specific knowledge of this, but it has to be a timing >> problem. >> Something about the timing of the command signals is just different >> enough that the drive thinks this is wrong. Sorry I can't give more >> specific help. > > Thought the same and added some 400ns sleeps between each of the cylinder, > sector, head commands and before I executed the read command... without > success :( > I think Jon is probably on to something. You can check out the delays in my PIO bit-banging code here: http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/picide/trunk/ I tested it on a few drives & spent a lot of quality time with the spec...of course I can't guarantee it would work for your specific drive, but it might give you a clue where a delay is missing. --Toby From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Dec 6 15:44:13 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 13:44:13 -0800 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <56633735.70200@sydex.com> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> The Evotek drive initially used the notoriously unreliable Ampex Alar plated media; whether they ever upgraded to sputtered media is uncertain. It probably should be avoided. I would look for an replacement drive using oxide media. The nice thing about oxide media is it came pre-corroded so that's one thing not to worry about in a 35 year old drive Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Saturday, December 05, 2015 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Evotek Winchester Harddisk On 12/05/2015 10:36 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > has anyone ever heard of Evotek ET-5800 series Winchester harddisks? > I wonder which interface they have. I'm looking for a replacement of a > CDC FINCH 9410 and wonder if they would be a possible replacement. > > ET-5800: http://www.ebay.de/itm/252174622907 > > CDC-FINCH: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/brochures/CDC_9410_Finch_Brochure_M > ar81.pdf The Evotek 5000 series is a bog-standard ST-506/ST-412 "MFM" interface. OEM manual is on Manx: http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/harte/Evotek/ET-5000%20Family%20OEM%20Manual.pdf Back in 1983 I had an opportunity to play with one. Pretty interesting, but very expensive, as I recall--and not terribly reliable. --Chuck From tor at spacetec.no Sun Dec 6 09:39:01 2015 From: tor at spacetec.no (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 16:39:01 +0100 Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 24 November 2015 at 22:42, Mouse wrote: > What I was really interested in was whether the FPGA itself was open. > If so, I definitely would have wanted to pick up the hardware, because > I would love to experiment with an FPGA - but I am _not_ going to put > up with running a vendor binary blob (which probably won't even run on > my machines) to get an undocumented blob to throw at the hardware. I don't think that exists, or if it does it must be pretty obscure. Certainly not Altera, Xilinx (which is used for OberonStation) or Lattice, and I doubt Microsemi, Actel, or any of the smaller commercial FPGA vendors have open FPGAs, or even open tools. CONFIDENTIALITY This e-mail and any attachment contain KONGSBERG information which may be proprietary, confidential or subject to export regulations, and is only meant for the intended recipient(s). Any disclosure, copying, distribution or use is prohibited, if not otherwise explicitly agreed with KONGSBERG. If received in error, please delete it immediately from your system and notify the sender properly. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Dec 6 09:47:51 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 16:47:51 +0100 Subject: Appraisal for Donation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151206154751.GG31539@Update.UU.SE> I'm not sure what you are asking. But a PDP-12 sold north of 15k dollars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161199469414 /P On Sun, Dec 06, 2015 at 09:16:45AM -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > The PDP-12 donor to the RICM needs an appraisal for the charitable donation. > I already suggested Vintage Tech. > Any other suggestions? > > -- > Michael Thompson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 6 16:10:52 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:10:52 -0700 Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5664B26C.5000602@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/6/2015 8:39 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 24 November 2015 at 22:42, Mouse wrote: > >> What I was really interested in was whether the FPGA itself was open. >> If so, I definitely would have wanted to pick up the hardware, because >> I would love to experiment with an FPGA - but I am _not_ going to put >> up with running a vendor binary blob (which probably won't even run on >> my machines) to get an undocumented blob to throw at the hardware. I don't see that as a problem. Treat it like a rom image. What is a problem old FPGA's vanish just once you get the hardware debugged. Now back to debugging my FPGA cpu ( Altera DE1 ). Ben. From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 6 16:48:32 2015 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:48:32 -0500 Subject: Open FPGAs? - was Re: Project Oberon and OberonStation (resend) In-Reply-To: <5664B26C.5000602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201511240311.WAA05490@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <277667814.9717954.1448337042465.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <5654D313.30309@telegraphics.com.au> <201511242142.QAA07516@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5664B26C.5000602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: There's one open FPGA toolchain out there, and it's for Lattice iCE40 FPGAs. http://www.clifford.at/icestorm/ David Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 6, 2015, at 5:10 PM, ben wrote: > >> On 12/6/2015 8:39 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: >>> On 24 November 2015 at 22:42, Mouse wrote: >>> >>> What I was really interested in was whether the FPGA itself was open. >>> If so, I definitely would have wanted to pick up the hardware, because >>> I would love to experiment with an FPGA - but I am _not_ going to put >>> up with running a vendor binary blob (which probably won't even run on >>> my machines) to get an undocumented blob to throw at the hardware. > > I don't see that as a problem. Treat it like a rom image. > What is a problem old FPGA's vanish just once you get the hardware debugged. > Now back to debugging my FPGA cpu ( Altera DE1 ). > Ben. > > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Dec 6 18:35:26 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 00:35:26 +0000 Subject: Random question about a Byte Magazine Cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5664D44E.2020504@wickensonline.co.uk> I think I found it: http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAxN1g3Mzg=/z/1AwAAOSwpDdVIqur/$_57.JPG Practical Computing March 1982! Mark. On 25/11/15 15:40, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Mark Wickens > wrote: > >> OK so this has been bugging me for a while. During a stint working at >> Morgan-Smith Electronics in Hatfield UK (they made diverse electronic >> systems including industrial PCs and radio alarms) I went through the >> boss's discarded vintage computer magazine collection and one particular >> issue I remember finding very interesting. >> >> IIRC it was a Byte Magazine (certainly the graphic was very in keeping with >> Byte cover artwork). I wonder if anyone recalls it - Google image searches >> have pulled a blank which means it either wasn't Byte (and just looked like >> it) or hasn't been scanned. >> >> The cover had a painted image of a white cliff face draped in vines with an >> 'Adventurer' in the foreground - you can imagine what the theme was. Anyone >> have any ideas? Maybe it wasn't Byte? >> >> Of course all this really quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, >> but it would help me scratch an itch at the very least. >> >> Thanks! Mark. >> > I'm all too familiar with that kind of itch. I'm glad we have this forum to > at least attempt to find answers; hope you find yours. > From jim at deitygraveyard.com Sun Dec 6 19:19:35 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 20:19:35 -0500 Subject: Random question about a Byte Magazine Cover In-Reply-To: <5664D44E.2020504@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <5664D44E.2020504@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 at 7:35 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > I think I found it: > > http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAxN1g3Mzg=/z/1AwAAOSwpDdVIqur/$_57.JPG > > Practical Computing March 1982! Great! How did you find it? Jim From dave at 661.org Sun Dec 6 21:03:02 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 03:03:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PT-210 Serial Board Message-ID: A few years ago I entered the schematics and laid out a design for the serial board option for the TRS-80 PT-210 printing terminal using gEDA. I found the schematics in a hardcopy of the service manual[1]. I revisited the project a couple of days ago and reentered the schematics into Kicad. I remembered that the reason I never made the board was that I was unsure of its correctness. The schematics and foil patterns contradict slightly and a couple wires seem to be missing from the schematic. Does anyone here have a PT-210 with a working serial board? I would like to work with you to beep out various points so I can figure out what's wrong. I also found a Youtube video showing a PT-210 with the serial board in action. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPxpzcFXh-0 [1] Scanned and uploaded to http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/RadioShack-Tandy/ -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 01:51:06 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 08:51:06 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5664AAF8.6000000@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664AAF8.6000000@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20151207085106.Horde.b6Rxzd-aZGt16YLzPHc-FVN@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Toby, Toby Thain wrote: > I think Jon is probably on to something. > > You can check out the delays in my PIO bit-banging code here: > http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/picide/trunk/ > > I tested it on a few drives & spent a lot of quality time with the > spec...of course I can't guarantee it would work for your specific > drive, but it might give you a clue where a delay is missing. I think that what goes wrong in my code is the pure reading/writing stuff since the IDENTIFY command works without any problem. So I checked checked your ASM code for the PIC specific for that purpose. From what I see in "ide_lbacmd" in ide.asm, you wait for BSY and DRQ to get low, via "ide_devselect", then issue the drive+head register, wait again for BSY and DRQ still in "ide_devselect" . Then, back in "ide_lbacmd" you issue the other sector/cyl/head registers. Right after that you issue the command to execute without any further waiting. Now is the point where I get the error bit - so how the data is read is probably not important here. I'll tra to "redo" your code tonight, but beside that you issue the drive+head first and I do just before I issue the command, I don't see a big difference here. I wonder if I could query the drive for the sector/cyl/head data it works with to see if they where recieved correctly. I guess it just gets invalid data for at least one of this so it response with ERR for any read or write command because of "invalid addressing" (I think). Do you know if there is a way to find out what sector/cyl/head the drive tried to process the command? Regards, Oliver From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 7 02:47:55 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 08:47:55 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> Message-ID: <566547BB.7010107@btinternet.com> its working ok now. Its hung off of an old notebook on a serial port. NB has dos 6.2 and some drivers I found on spare time gizmos site I discovered by chance that the rubber compression sleeve from an NType RF connector is exactly the right size and when cut in half fixes both drive wheels. I need to go up in the loft and see if I have any more carts. Rod On 06/12/2015 17:27, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >On Friday, December 4th, 2015 at 11:41 A.M. GMT (6:41 A.M. EST) Rod > Smallwood wrote: > >> Hello All >> Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing and >> glued it in place of the nasty black mess. >> So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the >> board flashed once and stayed on. >> >> I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. >> >> Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? > > As expected, my approach will always be based on using RT-11. > There are DD(X).SYS device drivers available up to V05.04G > of RT-11. If you are able to boot one of those versions and > you manage to connect the null-modem cable between the > DL and the TU-58, you should be able to read and write > to the TU-58 device. > > If you don't have a cabinet kit, then use whatever is needed > at both ends. If your cable is 10-pin at each end, then > disconnect the 10-pin cable to the cabinet kit for that DL > port and connect the cable directly to the DLV11-J. > > Note that under RT11XM, I believe > it is necessary to first LOAD the DDX device handler as in: > LOAD DD: > > In addition, even before that, you must match the CSR and > VECTOR with the DL port you are using. On a Qbus > system with a DLV11-J, usually the first DL port is: > SET DD CSR=176500 > SET DD VECTOR=300 > > On a PDP-11/23, there is an extra port at: > SET DD CSR=177570 > SET DD VECTOR=70 > if I remember correctly. > > With a Unibus system, I am not sure, but the values will be > similar. > > Let us know what happens. Don't forget that the TU58 is > a very slow serial tape device, not a disk drive even though > the RT-11 software thinks that there is a small disk drive > being used. > > Jerome Fine From grant at millhouseindustries.com Sun Dec 6 19:34:13 2015 From: grant at millhouseindustries.com (Grant) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 17:34:13 -0800 Subject: 80186 multi buss system problem Message-ID: <2C3184B820D848ED9C4E17091479600A@DaddyMobile> Hi, I?m looking for some help diagnosing a old Grid server problem,I am a hobbyist learning my way around old computer systems . The system consists of three boards labeled Diagnostic server File server Com server Each board contains a 80186 , ram and rom and are all connected via a backplane. The diagnostic server has rs232 port and a connector to a small led display. The file server has a GPIB port and a something along the lines of a SASI port The com server has what i believe to be several rs232/422?s ports at least What i know works is the diagnostics server and the file server as i can interact with the diagnostic server via a serial terminal and the file server attempts to boot from a gpib floppy but i have no boot media that will boot it. The problem is with the com server board, when the system initializes the diagnostic board does a self test then looks for other boards on the system it finds the file server board but does not find the com server board. If i remove the the file and com server and power them out of system, reset the processor?s and then probe the different signals they appear to be operating the same,clk activity , data and address buss activity is identical. When i put them in the system and watch the file and com server boot it looks like the com server get stuck when it goes to send its data to the diagnostic server. I'm just a amateur at these things, i am looking for help to point me in the right direction. i made a small video of a typical data line at boot the first is the file server then the com server where you can see it get stuck , this is typical of all the signals that i test. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHftWR0Ddys&feature=youtu.be --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Dec 7 03:24:08 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 09:24:08 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56655038.5030504@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/12/2015 17:27, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > In addition, even before that, you must match the CSR and > VECTOR with the DL port you are using. On a Qbus > system with a DLV11-J, usually the first DL port is: > SET DD CSR=176500 > SET DD VECTOR=300 > > On a PDP-11/23, there is an extra port at: > SET DD CSR=177570 > SET DD VECTOR=70 > if I remember correctly. I don't think so :-) 177570 is the switch/display register, which only exists on some Unibus machines. It definitely doesn't exist on an 11/23. Maybe you're thinking of the console CSR at 177560 with vector 60? Unibus addresses are the same as QBus, at least for I/O devices (things like memory management are done differently). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 7 03:47:34 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:47:34 +0100 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <56655038.5030504@dunnington.plus.com> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> <56655038.5030504@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <566555B6.7030906@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-07 10:24, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/12/2015 17:27, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> In addition, even before that, you must match the CSR and >> VECTOR with the DL port you are using. On a Qbus >> system with a DLV11-J, usually the first DL port is: >> SET DD CSR=176500 >> SET DD VECTOR=300 >> >> On a PDP-11/23, there is an extra port at: >> SET DD CSR=177570 >> SET DD VECTOR=70 >> if I remember correctly. > > I don't think so :-) 177570 is the switch/display register, which only > exists on some Unibus machines. It definitely doesn't exist on an > 11/23. Maybe you're thinking of the console CSR at 177560 with vector 60? The display register also exist on some Qbus machines, such as the 11/83, which have a two digit 7 segment display. > Unibus addresses are the same as QBus, at least for I/O devices (things > like memory management are done differently). Uh. I/O addresses as such are just addresses. Devices might be similar between Unibus and Qbus. Depends on the device. There are many Qbus devices that are similar/compatible with their Unibus counterparts, but not always. DMA devices are not, for the obvious reason. However, they can still be "mostly compatible". The memory management is compatible, so no, memory management is not done differently. All that said, yeah, the second serial port is most likely not at 177570. But that can be checked in the manuals... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 04:32:25 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 05:32:25 -0500 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: Try sector count=1 Joe > On Dec 6, 2015, at 3:57 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > Hi, > > I've built a Harddisk-Controller-Emulator for my system which accesses > a IDE (PATA) harddisk with an ATMega in PIO mode. It works like a charm > except for one WD harddisk. The harddisk itself works fine with MS-DOS > 6.22 and FreeBSD but refuses to work with my ATMega. > > On reading or writing a sector, right after the command is issued, the > error bit is set in the status register, and the error register indicates > an ABRT. > > # ABRT: > # indicates the requested command has been aborted due to a > # drive status error (such as not ready or write fault) or because > # the command is invalid. > > Right after power up and after the disk got ready, I issue the IDENTIFY > command and read the data back which works perfectly. After that I > read sector 0 and this fails. > > I use LBA since the harddisk states that is supportes LBA. Nevertheless > I also tried accessing the harddisk with CHS mode and got the same error. > > I tested other harddisks which support either CHS+LBA or CHS only. All > of them work perfectly. > > > > What happens after powerup to read block 0 of the disk in LBA mode: > > - Setup AVR ports and so on > - wait until RDY gets high > - wait until BSY gets low > - issue a Drive/Head register Command with value 0 > - wait until BSY gets low > - issue a Command Register Command with value 0xEC (identify device) > - *read data* > - process and print out data > - wait until BSY gets low > - issue a Sector Count register Command with value 0 > - issue a Sector Number register Command with value 0 > - issue a Cylinder Low register Command with value 0 > - issue a Cylinder High register Command with value 0 > - issue a Drive/Head register Command with 0 + 0xE0 (LBA, Drive 0) > - issue a Command Register Command with value 0x20 (Read Sector) > - *read data* > > > *read data*: > > - wait until BSY gets low > - check ERR bit in the Status register <- set on cmd 0x20 here > - wait until DRQ gets high > - issue a Data register Command with no data > - put /RD on low > - read 512 bytes of data > - put /RD on high > - check ERR bit in the Status register > > Issuing a Command works always like setting /CS0, /CS1, /DA0, /DA1, > /DA2 to low, and then set the needed signals to high so the desired > command is indicated. > When data has to be transfered with this command, the lower 8 bits > are put then onto the port, /WR is set to low afterwards, 3 nop() > are done and /WR is set back to high. > > Does anyone see an error what could make the drive behave like I said? > > - ATA IDENTIFY works, and the drives data can be read > - after a read or write sector command is issued, the status register > directly goes 0xd0 (busy) and with the 2nd fetch 0x59 (not busy, drq > set, err set) > > Regards, Oliver From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 7 04:51:42 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (rod) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:51:42 +0000 Subject: TU-58 In-Reply-To: <566547BB.7010107@btinternet.com> References: <56617C00.3070804@btinternet.com> <5664701F.7010007@compsys.to> <566547BB.7010107@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <566564BE.1000802@btinternet.com> OK as you surmised its destined for 'eleven_heaven' my row of q-bus pdp11's 11/23 11/53 11/73. I I also have two 11/94's (Hybrid bus) waiting on the day KDJ11-E's don't cost $2000. DLV-11J I have or what ever the four port one is called. Plus backplate with four 25way D connectors and split ribbon cable to four plugs into the DLV. As to the speed , well, I had one at DecPark called Sylvester because sat on my desk and purred. Rod On 07/12/15 08:47, rod wrote: > its working ok now. Its hung off of an old notebook on a serial port. > NB has dos 6.2 and some drivers I found on spare time gizmos site > > I discovered by chance that the rubber compression sleeve from an > NType RF connector > is exactly the right size and when cut in half fixes both drive wheels. > I need to go up in the loft and see if I have any more carts. > > Rod > > > On 06/12/2015 17:27, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >On Friday, December 4th, 2015 at 11:41 A.M. GMT (6:41 A.M. EST) Rod >> Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Hello All >>> Well I managed to find some suitable rubber tubing >>> and glued it in place of the nasty black mess. >>> So I put everything back and turned on. Lo and Behold LED on the >>> board flashed once and stayed on. >>> >>> I had been told (Tony D I think) thats what its supposed to do. >>> >>> Anybody know whats the quickest way to test a TU-58? >> >> As expected, my approach will always be based on using RT-11. >> There are DD(X).SYS device drivers available up to V05.04G >> of RT-11. If you are able to boot one of those versions and >> you manage to connect the null-modem cable between the >> DL and the TU-58, you should be able to read and write >> to the TU-58 device. >> >> If you don't have a cabinet kit, then use whatever is needed >> at both ends. If your cable is 10-pin at each end, then >> disconnect the 10-pin cable to the cabinet kit for that DL >> port and connect the cable directly to the DLV11-J. >> >> Note that under RT11XM, I believe >> it is necessary to first LOAD the DDX device handler as in: >> LOAD DD: >> >> In addition, even before that, you must match the CSR and >> VECTOR with the DL port you are using. On a Qbus >> system with a DLV11-J, usually the first DL port is: >> SET DD CSR=176500 >> SET DD VECTOR=300 >> >> On a PDP-11/23, there is an extra port at: >> SET DD CSR=177570 >> SET DD VECTOR=70 >> if I remember correctly. >> >> With a Unibus system, I am not sure, but the values will be >> similar. >> >> Let us know what happens. Don't forget that the TU58 is >> a very slow serial tape device, not a disk drive even though >> the RT-11 software thinks that there is a small disk drive >> being used. >> >> Jerome Fine > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 05:52:06 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 12:52:06 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Joseph Lang wrote: > Try sector count=1 Good eyes! :) Unfortunally it was just a type I made in the mail. Sector count is of course 1. Regards, Oliver From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 05:54:57 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 12:54:57 +0100 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Tom Gardner wrote: > The Evotek drive initially used the notoriously unreliable Ampex > Alar plated media; whether they ever upgraded to sputtered media is > uncertain. It probably should be avoided. > > I would look for an replacement drive using oxide media. The nice > thing about oxide media is it came pre-corroded so that's one thing > not to worry about in a 35 year old drive OK, but I'm not looking for a replacement for en Evotek harddisk, but for a CDC FINCH harddisk. These drives seem to be so rare - I would not even care about the media the disks where made of ;) And - I found nothing "compatible" so far to replace them with other harddisks. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 7 11:11:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 12:11:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pair of PDP-11/04's available Message-ID: <20151207171140.5F61E18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've been informed that a pair of PDP-11/04's are available, Chicago US area. The price isn't set - someone else has offered the owner ~$400, which seems a bit low to me (although I don't know what peripherals/memory are included, if any). One is in a 5" box, and one in an 11"; both apparently include the basic "Operator's Console" (i.e. halt and reset toggles). Contact Patrick Lynn at 815-838-0134 if interested. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 7 12:07:09 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 10:07:09 -0800 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5665CACD.3090803@bitsavers.org> On 12/7/15 3:54 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > And - I found nothing "compatible" so far to replace them with other > harddisks. It looks similar to the SA1000 interface. Memorex 112/Fujitsu 2301? Fujitsu drives were used in Morrow 8" disk units. From CyndeM at livingcomputermuseum.org Mon Dec 7 09:14:07 2015 From: CyndeM at livingcomputermuseum.org (Cynde Moya) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 15:14:07 +0000 Subject: Appraisal for Donation In-Reply-To: <20151206154751.GG31539@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151206154751.GG31539@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <36231E40F3E3184D93FB4EE26950501F010F7A1A30@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Here's a couple of professional appraisers who know computers: Christopher Morgan Consulting 587 Tremont Street Boston, MA 02118 AND Jeremy Norman HistoryofScience.com HistoryofInformation.com BookHistory.net Jeremy Norman & Co., Inc. Mail: P.O. Box 867 Novato, CA 94948 UPS, FedEx, DHL: 936-B Seventh St., PMB 238 Novato, CA 94945-3010 Tel: 415-892-3181 Cell: 415-225-3954 Cynde -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Sunday, December 6, 2015 7:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Appraisal for Donation I'm not sure what you are asking. But a PDP-12 sold north of 15k dollars: http://www.ebay.com/itm/161199469414 /P On Sun, Dec 06, 2015 at 09:16:45AM -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > The PDP-12 donor to the RICM needs an appraisal for the charitable donation. > I already suggested Vintage Tech. > Any other suggestions? > > -- > Michael Thompson From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 13:06:15 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 20:06:15 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151207085106.Horde.b6Rxzd-aZGt16YLzPHc-FVN@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664AAF8.6000000@telegraphics.com.au> <20151207085106.Horde.b6Rxzd-aZGt16YLzPHc-FVN@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151207200615.Horde.2XE6uvmZcgi_8mg9wRLheTw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, OK, i tried now to set Drive/Head first before I set all the other registers. No success. I then added a 10ms delay after the data is set for each register, disable /WR and then wait another 10ms before I execute the next register. I also added status checks after each register setting. It stays 0x50 everytime I check it and just after I issue the command it goes to 0x59. Feel a bit clueless here :/ Oliver Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi Toby, > > Toby Thain wrote: > >> I think Jon is probably on to something. >> >> You can check out the delays in my PIO bit-banging code here: >> http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/picide/trunk/ >> >> I tested it on a few drives & spent a lot of quality time with the >> spec...of course I can't guarantee it would work for your specific >> drive, but it might give you a clue where a delay is missing. > > I think that what goes wrong in my code is the pure reading/writing > stuff since the IDENTIFY command works without any problem. So I > checked checked your ASM code for the PIC specific for that purpose. > > From what I see in "ide_lbacmd" in ide.asm, you wait for BSY and DRQ > to get low, via "ide_devselect", then issue the drive+head register, > wait again for BSY and DRQ still in "ide_devselect" . Then, back in > "ide_lbacmd" you issue the other sector/cyl/head registers. Right > after that you issue the command to execute without any further > waiting. > > Now is the point where I get the error bit - so how the data is read > is probably not important here. > > I'll tra to "redo" your code tonight, but beside that you issue the > drive+head first and I do just before I issue the command, I don't > see a big difference here. > > I wonder if I could query the drive for the sector/cyl/head data it > works with to see if they where recieved correctly. I guess it just > gets invalid data for at least one of this so it response with ERR > for any read or write command because of "invalid addressing" (I > think). > Do you know if there is a way to find out what sector/cyl/head the > drive tried to process the command? > > Regards, > Oliver From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:25:25 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:25:25 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") Message-ID: On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk drives. > I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB > CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s > here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for > half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These > might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI > controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash > storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts. > That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s. I now know exactly what my future plans are... But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS (and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD card/USB stick/what-have-you? Best regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From t.gardner at computer.org Mon Dec 7 13:26:45 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 11:26:45 -0800 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <011501d13125$3c37b5d0$b4a72170$@computer.org> Sorry If I didn't make myself clear, I am suggesting one never acquire an Evotek drive today other than perhaps as an historical curiosity. The Finch was a short lived 8-inch HDD that went up to 42 MB unformatted BUT according to Disk/Trend It did not use an ST506 interface but instead came with this variety of interfaces: Finch, LDI, SMD or SA1000! So your problem is likely to be finding a drive that matches the interface of yr controller card. Some possibilities ? Finch interface was available on certain CDC Wren 5?-inch models, e.g. 9415 ? SA1000 interface was available on the 8-inch Quantum Q2000 ? SMD interface was available on CDC 8-inch FSD models; e.g., 9715 ? I have no idea what LDI was BTW the ST506 interface is a copy of SA1000 interface with the major difference being a slightly higher data rate so any ST506 might actually work but the problem might be low level formatting due to the unexpected track length. Depends upon the formatting utility If u know what interface u need I can suggest models Tom -----Original Message----- From: Oliver Lehmann [mailto:lehmann at ans-netz.de] Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 3:55 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Evotek Winchester Harddisk Tom Gardner < t.gardner at computer.org> wrote: > The Evotek drive initially used the notoriously unreliable Ampex Alar > plated media; whether they ever upgraded to sputtered media is > uncertain. It probably should be avoided. > > I would look for an replacement drive using oxide media. The nice > thing about oxide media is it came pre-corroded so that's one thing > not to worry about in a 35 year old drive OK, but I'm not looking for a replacement for en Evotek harddisk, but for a CDC FINCH harddisk. These drives seem to be so rare - I would not even care about the media the disks where made of ;) And - I found nothing "compatible" so far to replace them with other harddisks. From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 7 13:29:49 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 20:29:49 +0100 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-07 20:25, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas wrote: >> As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk drives. >> I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB >> CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s >> here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for >> half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These >> might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI >> controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash >> storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts. >> > That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s. > I now know exactly what my future plans are... > > But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS > (and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP > controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several > of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install > from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there > anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD > card/USB stick/what-have-you? I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... As for your actual question, that is outside the scope of the PDP-11. You are asking if there is some SCSI storage, that physically looks like a CF card (or so), but logically on the SCSI bus looks like a tape. Hooking that to a PDP-11 or an x86-64 wouldn't make any difference. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 13:36:18 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 14:36:18 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is > more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... > Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. > As for your actual question, that is outside the scope of the PDP-11. You > are asking if there is some SCSI storage, that physically looks like a CF > card (or so), but logically on the SCSI bus looks like a tape. > Yeah, probably my phrasing or organization was a bit off, but what I meant wasn't with regards to just the PDP-11, but with regards to a general device that looks like a SCSI tape device. Since such a SCSI device could, like you said, work on a PDP-11, modern x86-64 (if the SCSI bus is right), VAX, Alpha, et cetera. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 13:38:40 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 20:38:40 +0100 Subject: Evotek Winchester Harddisk In-Reply-To: <011501d13125$3c37b5d0$b4a72170$@computer.org> References: <20151205193647.Horde.v-DFXKQqBDeAkG-UPMM1ac1@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56633735.70200@sydex.com> <00b801d1306f$3fdee390$bf9caab0$@computer.org> <20151207125457.Horde.nmsnYzdkulQV6H3u_imaOnF@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <011501d13125$3c37b5d0$b4a72170$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20151207203840.Horde.daOHpWX1dHImJP9mq9f62LR@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Tom Gardner wrote: > Sorry If I didn't make myself clear, I am suggesting one never > acquire an Evotek drive today other than perhaps as an historical > curiosity. > > > > The Finch was a short lived 8-inch HDD that went up to 42 MB > unformatted BUT according to Disk/Trend It did not use an ST506 > interface but instead came with this variety of interfaces: Finch, > LDI, SMD or SA1000! So your problem is likely to be finding a drive > that matches the interface of yr controller card. Some possibilities > > ? Finch interface was available on certain CDC Wren 5?-inch > models, e.g. 9415 > From what I understood in the Zilog System 8000 manuals, it is the Finch interface. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/zilog/s8000/03-3237-04_hwRef_Dec82.pdf Page 33 - Drive Performance Characterstics Page 47 - Pinout of the WDC-Controller Disk Connector Page 65-69 - Describing Driver Configurations Here are pictures of harddisks used in the System 8000: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/Harddisk And this is the so called "FINCH Adapter Board" used in the S8000: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/S8000_boards/FINCH-Adapter-Board From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Dec 7 13:56:24 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 20:56:24 +0100 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >> > Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know > that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP > (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to > install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and > TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't > care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write locked. I thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but it was the write lock issue that I sortof remembered... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 7 14:14:04 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 15:14:04 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> > On Dec 7, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >>> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >>> >> Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know >> that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP >> (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to >> install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and >> TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't >> care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. > > Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write locked. I thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but it was the write lock issue that I sortof remembered... That doesn't sound quite right. RSTS/E treats a boot disk as an installation (kit) disk if its file system is marked as read-only. (That's the file system flags, not the drive write protect button). If you boot such a disk, it goes to the installation dialog rather than the system start dialog. If you boot from tape, you'll also (always) end up in the installation dialog since the assumption is that the only bootable tapes out there are install kits. paul From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 7 15:26:36 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2015 22:26:36 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151207200615.Horde.2XE6uvmZcgi_8mg9wRLheTw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664A450.10302@pico-systems.com> <20151206221439.Horde.rgJr66ilWYXBHHXrHaCCSp6@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5664AAF8.6000000@telegraphics.com.au> <20151207085106.Horde.b6Rxzd-aZGt16YLzPHc-FVN@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207200615.Horde.2XE6uvmZcgi_8mg9wRLheTw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151207222636.Horde.h2hT5aPYNa-hjNdJk3x8l4_@avocado.salatschuessel.net> And regarding timing... even this drive works without any problem: === P8000 WDC Emulator 0.93 === INFO: PATA init start INFO: PATA disk has been found INFO: Number of logical cylinders: 1001 INFO: Number of logical heads: 15 INFO: Number of logical sectors per logical track: 34 INFO: Serial number: 00DG169020 INFO: Firmware revision: 05.05.01 INFO: Model number: ST3290A INFO: Capabilities: Its releasedate should be somewhere in 1994. So it predates the drive I have problems with for two years: === P8000 WDC Emulator 0.93 === INFO: PATA init start INFO: PATA disk has been found INFO: Number of logical cylinders: 3148 INFO: Number of logical heads: 16 INFO: Number of logical sectors per logical track: 63 INFO: Serial number: WD-WT2891920914 INFO: Firmware revision: 23.16U73 INFO: Model number: WDC AC31600H INFO: Capabilities: DMA, LBA, IORDY may be disabled, IORDY, Standard standby Timer values, INFO: User addressable sectors for 28-bit commands: 3173184 Single Word DMA modes: 0 Multiword Word DMA modes: 1031 PIO modes: 3 INFO: Minimum Multiword DMA cycle time per word: 120ns INFO: Recommended Multiword DMA cycle time: 120ns INFO: Minimum PIO transfer cycle time without flow control: 160ns INFO: Minimum PIO cycle time with IORDY flow control: 120ns INFO: Additional support: 0 ERROR: read error at address: 0 / errorcode is: 04 Other WD drives I own from '98 and '99 also work. Also a Samsung 560MB drive from 1995 which is also doing LBA works fine. Regards, Oliver Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > OK, i tried now to set Drive/Head first before I set all the other > registers. No success. > I then added a 10ms delay after the data is set for each register, > disable /WR and then wait another 10ms before I execute the next > register. > I also added status checks after each register setting. It stays 0x50 > everytime I check it and just after I issue the command it goes to > 0x59. > > Feel a bit clueless here :/ > > Oliver > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Hi Toby, >> >> Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> I think Jon is probably on to something. >>> >>> You can check out the delays in my PIO bit-banging code here: >>> http://www.telegraphics.com.au/svn/picide/trunk/ >>> >>> I tested it on a few drives & spent a lot of quality time with the >>> spec...of course I can't guarantee it would work for your specific >>> drive, but it might give you a clue where a delay is missing. >> >> I think that what goes wrong in my code is the pure reading/writing >> stuff since the IDENTIFY command works without any problem. So I >> checked checked your ASM code for the PIC specific for that purpose. >> >> From what I see in "ide_lbacmd" in ide.asm, you wait for BSY and DRQ >> to get low, via "ide_devselect", then issue the drive+head register, >> wait again for BSY and DRQ still in "ide_devselect" . Then, back in >> "ide_lbacmd" you issue the other sector/cyl/head registers. Right >> after that you issue the command to execute without any further >> waiting. >> >> Now is the point where I get the error bit - so how the data is read >> is probably not important here. >> >> I'll tra to "redo" your code tonight, but beside that you issue the >> drive+head first and I do just before I issue the command, I don't >> see a big difference here. >> >> I wonder if I could query the drive for the sector/cyl/head data it >> works with to see if they where recieved correctly. I guess it just >> gets invalid data for at least one of this so it response with ERR >> for any read or write command because of "invalid addressing" (I >> think). >> Do you know if there is a way to find out what sector/cyl/head the >> drive tried to process the command? >> >> Regards, >> Oliver From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 7 17:35:51 2015 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 18:35:51 -0500 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> On 12/7/15 6:52 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: I don't have much to offer, but I have done PIO IDE accesses on lots of cpu's, including small ARM cpu's. I would put the code into a "read loop" and "write loop" and look at the signals with a scope. Make sure they look good - i.e. clean edges and the width of the assertion is "ok". I think the minimum is something like 300ns (I may be wrong, that's what I remember). And make sure the address is stable before you assert WE# - I'd check that with a scope as well. If you don't have a scope a simple logic analyser will work, but a scope is better. I seem to recall some drives got unhappy if some of the signals on the IDE interface were not exactly right - several need to be grounded and several pulled up with a resistor. You don't mention what your physical interface is. If you do I can dig up my notes and tell you what I've done in the past (not that it's authoritative, but it's something to compare with). I'm sure you'll figure it out - just keep trying :-) -brad From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Dec 7 17:36:45 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 17:36:45 -0600 Subject: New release of FreePascal Message-ID: <20151207233644.GC15840@lonesome.com> So I just saw this commit go by on the FreeBSD ports mailing list. Since some people were talking about Pascal a month or two ago, I thought it might be of interest to them. I'm sure commits to various Linux systems will be done as well. fwiw, I removed the 1460+ lines of diff :-) mcl ----- Forwarded message from John Marino ----- Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2015 23:29:37 +0000 (UTC) From: John Marino To: ports-committers at freebsd.org, svn-ports-all at freebsd.org, svn-ports-head at freebsd.org Subject: svn commit: r403082 - in head: . Mk archivers archivers/fpc-bzip2 archivers/fpc-paszlib archivers/fpc-unzip audio audio/fpc-a52 audio/fpc-a52/files audio/fpc-mad audio/fpc-mad/files audio/fpc-modpl... Author: marino Date: Sat Dec 5 23:29:36 2015 New Revision: 403082 URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/ports/403082 Log: FPC ecosystem: Upgrade version 2.6.4 => 3.0.0 This is the first major release of FreePascal in nearly four years. There are a ton of new features, way more to list here. see: http://wiki.freepascal.org/FPC_New_Features_3.0 Several new unit ports were added, some were contracted. Most of those were absorbed into the main FPC packages, but two units are no longer supported: sndfile and matroshka. All 99 remaining ports (including Lazarus ports) were build tested on FreeBSD i386 and amd64 Release 10.2 ----- End forwarded message ----- From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Dec 7 17:47:12 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 16:47:12 -0700 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 7, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > On 12/7/15 6:52 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > I don't have much to offer, but I have done PIO IDE accesses on lots of > cpu's, including small ARM cpu's. I would put the code into a "read loop" > and "write loop" and look at the signals with a scope. Make sure they look > good - i.e. clean edges and the width of the assertion is "ok". I think > the minimum is something like 300ns (I may be wrong, that's what I > remember). And make sure the address is stable before you assert WE# - > I'd check that with a scope as well. If you don't have a scope a simple > logic analyser will work, but a scope is better. > > I seem to recall some drives got unhappy if some of the signals on the IDE > interface were not exactly right - several need to be grounded and several > pulled up with a resistor. You don't mention what your physical interface > is. If you do I can dig up my notes and tell you what I've done in the > past (not that it's authoritative, but it's something to compare with). One thing that's often forgotten is that some IDE drives redefine what it means to be low-end. The literature is littered with stories of drive 'cost reduction' that would make the original engineers cringe: removing filtering caps because they weren't needed, removing termination and/or specifying higher tolerance resistor packs (which only breaks cables at the limits of the spec), using cheaper caps that go horrifically bad over time (both the electrolytic well known to this forum from power supplies, to others that were cheap because they were defective). If drive makers could save a buck doing it, you can be sure at least one of them has tried with product in the market that may be causing you grief. Things that shouldn't matter most of the time will matter. It might even be on your board. Too-slow rise times, etc from board layout. tl;dr: get a scope and make sure the signals look clean and meet the minimums in the specs by a safe margin. Warner From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Dec 7 14:58:08 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 20:58:08 +0000 Subject: Looking for AS/400 Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C74406130128FAF@TECT.stenoweb.local> Hi there, Recently, I've been reading up into AS/400s.. They seem like really neat machines, and look really sharp with those matching block terminals. I remember retail stores using those, and I always wondered what kind of a system they were running on... I figured it was DOS! I've been having trouble locating one, however. Anybody have one lying around, or know of where to find one in the Toronto area? It needn't be a high spec machine, just something to play with OS/400 and a terminal. Thanks! -brian From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Dec 7 18:36:20 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2015 19:36:20 -0500 Subject: Appraisal for Donation (Pontus Pihlgren) Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 16:47:51 +0100 > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Subject: Re: Appraisal for Donation > > I'm not sure what you are asking. But a PDP-12 sold north of > 15k dollars: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/161199469414 > > /P > Thanks! I remembered that one selling, but I couldn't remember where. -- Michael Thompson From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Dec 8 01:16:30 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 08:16:30 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Warner, hi Brad, I have an old russian 50MHz dual-beam osciloscope but without any storage functionality. -> http://files.pofo.de/P1070427.JPG I guess it would not be that easy to actually display the whole communication cylce. I could see how good the flanks are, but I guess my AVR does it quite well. In the meantime I checked the FreeBSD ata driver as well as Linux ata driver and I also took a look on FreeDOS. I don't see that much differences to how I issue the Read/write commands. This is my circuit: http://www.pofo.de/P8000/notes/plaene/eigene/P8000_WDC_Emulator/P8000_WDC_Emulator_v1.2_Plan.pdf It changed a bit in the meantime regarding the reset logic and I moved 2L1 from the PATA-Connector to the free AVR-Port, but nothing significantly changed. https://github.com/OlliL/P8000_WDC_Emulator/blob/master/P8000_WDC_Emulator/wdc_drv_pata.c This is my ATA driver and in the directory is all the other Code for my AVR. I'll probably dig out my old 486 mainboard with an old ISA IDE Controller to check if this old thing is able to work with that harddisk. All newer stuff will do WDMA or UDMA and not PIO like I do with my AVR. If the 486 is also able to work with that disk, I see two options... a) get a cheap "open logic sniffer" (logic analysator) and see how good the timing is (but as I said I added massive delays without success) b) just accept that there is hardware around in the PC sector which works "sometimes" ;) I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. Regards, Oliver From supervinx at libero.it Tue Dec 8 02:24:47 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 09:24:47 +0100 Subject: R: Looking for AS/400 Message-ID: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> Can't help, since I live on the other side if the pond, but AS/400s are cool machines. I own a bunch of them (and some S/36s too) and I like them. OS/400 was and is a good OS (if you have clear in mind what it can and what it can't do). Meanwhile, you could request a free AS/400 access to the folks at pub1.rzkh.de and play with OS/400. It's fun to access such a beast from a... Smart Phone :) -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Brian Adams Data:07/12/2015 21:58 (GMT+01:00) A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Looking for AS/400 Hi there, Recently, I've been reading up into AS/400s.. They seem like really neat machines, and look really sharp with those matching block terminals. I remember retail stores using those, and I always wondered what kind of a system they were running on... I figured it was DOS! I've been having trouble locating one, however. Anybody have one lying around, or know of where to find one in the Toronto area? It needn't be a high spec machine, just something to play with OS/400 and a terminal. Thanks! -brian From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 03:12:16 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 03:12:16 -0600 Subject: R: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> Message-ID: > Meanwhile, you could request a free AS/400 access to the folks at pub1.rzkh.de and play with OS/400. It's fun to access such a beast from a... Smart Phone :) What are you using to do this? Is there a decent 5250 client for mobile? From supervinx at libero.it Tue Dec 8 03:27:24 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 10:27:24 +0100 Subject: R: Re: R: Looking for AS/400 Message-ID: Decent... well... Hard to tell... If you use an external USB mini keyboard they're decent :) There's the free version of Mocha TN5250, just for an example... From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 04:24:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:24:52 +0100 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-07 21:14, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Dec 7, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >> On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>> On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >>>> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >>>> >>> Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know >>> that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP >>> (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to >>> install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and >>> TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't >>> care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. >> >> Actually, RSTS/E have some issues with install if the tape isn't write locked. I thought it was some combo/confusion between TK50 and TK70, but it was the write lock issue that I sortof remembered... > > That doesn't sound quite right. RSTS/E treats a boot disk as an installation (kit) disk if its file system is marked as read-only. (That's the file system flags, not the drive write protect button). If you boot such a disk, it goes to the installation dialog rather than the system start dialog. I have no idea how RSTS/E deals with disks. I was only talking about tapes. > If you boot from tape, you'll also (always) end up in the installation dialog since the assumption is that the only bootable tapes out there are install kits. I have not done any RSTS/E installations myself, so I'm only repeating what others have reported multiple times. And according to several people, if the tape isn't write locked, the installation aborts. Google for it and you'll find several reports about this. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Dec 8 04:58:07 2015 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:58:07 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found Message-ID: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are on the boards. I show/offer some of them at retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , under "core memory" Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? Are any PDP-15 running at all? Thanks, Joerg From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 8 06:03:02 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:03:02 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> Message-ID: <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not made with flip-chips. PDP-9 is made with flipchips and is 18 bit. But I seeem to recall it's memory looks quite different. /P On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:58:07AM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. > There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. > According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are on the > boards. > > I show/offer some of them at > retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , > under "core memory" > > Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? > Are any PDP-15 running at all? > > Thanks, > Joerg From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 8 06:03:02 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:03:02 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> Message-ID: <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not made with flip-chips. PDP-9 is made with flipchips and is 18 bit. But I seeem to recall it's memory looks quite different. /P On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:58:07AM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. > There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. > According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are on the > boards. > > I show/offer some of them at > retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , > under "core memory" > > Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? > Are any PDP-15 running at all? > > Thanks, > Joerg From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 06:14:13 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:14:13 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5666C995.9050407@update.uu.se> Careful. Some PDP-11 memory is also 18 bits wide... 16 bits plus two parity bits. Johnny On 2015-12-08 13:03, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like > this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to > 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. > > Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not > made with flip-chips. > > PDP-9 is made with flipchips and is 18 bit. But I seeem to recall it's > memory looks quite different. > > /P > > On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:58:07AM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. >> There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. >> According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are on the >> boards. >> >> I show/offer some of them at >> retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , >> under "core memory" >> >> Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? >> Are any PDP-15 running at all? >> >> Thanks, >> Joerg From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 8 08:01:11 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 08:01:11 -0600 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <5666C995.9050407@update.uu.se> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> <5666C995.9050407@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5666E2A7.5060801@charter.net> But not these - PDP-11's didn't use dual-height connectors on memory. Anyway, they are indeed PDP-15. (Whether or not they are actually MM15 I don't know). The page on the memory on the provided link indicates: G100 G613 G614 The modules and options document on bitsavers.org/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions sez.... G100 Sense Amp & Inhibity Driver, PDP15, 3 Wire, 3D Memory Where Used: 15 G613 X Diode Matrix, 3 Wire, 4K, 9/I Where Used: 15 G614 X Diode Matrix, 3 Wire, 4K, 9/I Where Used: 15 JRJ On 12/8/2015 6:14 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Careful. Some PDP-11 memory is also 18 bits wide... 16 bits plus two > parity bits. > > Johnny > > On 2015-12-08 13:03, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like >> this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to >> 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. >> >> Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not >> made with flip-chips. >> >> PDP-9 is made with flipchips and is 18 bit. But I seeem to recall it's >> memory looks quite different. >> >> /P >> >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:58:07AM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: >>> I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. >>> There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. >>> According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are >>> on the >>> boards. >>> >>> I show/offer some of them at >>> retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , >>> under "core memory" >>> >>> Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? >>> Are any PDP-15 running at all? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Joerg > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 8 08:09:16 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 09:09:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it out - and if the latter, how to break it up? (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. Thanks for any insights! Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 08:36:36 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 08:36:36 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000001d131c5$d7d3b7f0$877b27d0$@classiccmp.org> Noel wrote..... ----------------------------------------------------- So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it out - and if the latter, how to break it up? (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. Thanks for any insights! -------------------------------------------------------- One would think that the highest revenue would be parting it out. Typically that is true on paper. But be aware that when you're considering what price you'd likely get for each part and the resulting grand total, after the sought after bits are sold you are left with a pile of odds and ends that no one wants or will take years to finally sell so that portion of cash is not likely to materialize. You will also attract far more eyeballs to the ad if it is a full configuration rather than bits & pieces. As with anything, selling price all depends on it being seen by just the right person that desperately wants the whole system (or a specific part). But overall my advice to maximize price is to take a two-step approach and list it as a whole with a firm number in mind that it must sell for (or better). If that materializes, you're done and happy. If it does not, then go the route of parting it out. J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 08:36:45 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 09:36:45 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Keep it together. RL drives are pigs to ship and rather common. Basically, they are hard to sell on their own. -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, > running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the > value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it > out - and if the latter, how to break it up? > > (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by > a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) > > So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to > the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory > separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is > the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. > > Thanks for any insights! > > Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue Dec 8 08:48:23 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 09:48:23 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <000001d131c5$d7d3b7f0$877b27d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000001d131c5$d7d3b7f0$877b27d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5666EDB7.7040903@cimmeri.com> On 12/8/2015 9:36 AM, Jay West wrote: > > Noel wrote..... > ----------------------------------------------------- > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 > -------------------------------------------------------- > ... > list it as a whole with a firm number in mind that it must sell for (or > better). If that materializes, you're done and happy. If it does not, then > go the route of parting it out. > > J Just have a competitive bidding process (with a reserve amount if safety needed) and see what you get for the system as a whole. Depending on resolution of part out, parting can be immense time and work... but if you did it in complete modules, not too bad... say CPU + cabinet, then just the drives separately. - J. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 8 08:48:50 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 09:48:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <000001d131c5$d7d3b7f0$877b27d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <000001d131c5$d7d3b7f0$877b27d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201512081448.JAA22442@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> So which direction [as a whole or parting out] would get the most >> money? > One would think that the highest revenue would be parting it out. > Typically that is true on paper. But be aware that [...] Also be aware that it will cost you people time (which usually translates fairly directly into money, for corporations) to handle multiple sales and multiple shipments and making sure to get just the right pieces in each shipment and suchlike. At least some of that needs to be time from someone who actually knows the hardware, too; such people tend to be more expensive than shipping-and-receiving clerks. If you're not careful this can eat up the prima facie price differential from parting it out. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 09:15:55 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:15:55 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> Why would anyone here want to contribute to such a question? The outcome is unlike to be contributing anything here anyway. (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking that people who request assistance to maximize their profits targeting the same crowd they ask for assistance from (for free) is abusive.) Johnny On 2015-12-08 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, > running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the > value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it > out - and if the latter, how to break it up? > > (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by > a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) > > So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to > the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory > separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is > the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. > > Thanks for any insights! > > Noel > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Dec 8 09:22:10 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:22:10 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5666F5A2.2020007@compsys.to> >William Donzelli wrote: >Keep it together. RL drives are pigs to ship and rather common. >Basically, they are hard to sell on their own. > Also, be aware that the competition is not someone else selling another PDP-11 system, but a PC running Windows which runs the same software UNDER Ersatz-11 much faster and with MUCH more storage available. I used to be in touch with an individual who also ran RSTS/E under Ersatz-11 and it was the best decision that was ever made. Even if there are special non-DEC boards, it is possible to connect either (or both) a Unibus or a Qbus to the PC with special adapters. Since it would be unlikely that anyone interested in a PDP-11/34 has such a requirement, the usual cost of running on a PC under Windows will be quite low, even when a commercial license is also required. If a hobby user is interested, then there is free hobby use for Ersatz-11, so that cost can also be removed. And, of course, if the buyer is not local and there is shipping, that cost can be quite high. On the other hand, ebay prices for PDP-11 equipment that has been parted out have been much higher lately. Jerome Fine >>On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > >>So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, >>running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the >>value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it >>out - and if the latter, how to break it up? >> >>(No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by >>a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) >> >>So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to >>the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory >>separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is >>the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. >> >>Thanks for any insights! >> >> Noel >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 8 09:24:39 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:24:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <20151208152439.2FC2618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Johnny Billquist > (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking that people who request assistance > to maximize their profits targeting the same crowd they ask for > assistance from (for free) is abusive.) _I_ am not selling the item in question; I merely happen to know the seller, and am doing them a favour (since I happen to sympathize with people whose jobs are about to disappear). I expect they will use eBay to actually sell the item; I am fairly certain that it _will not_ be offered through this list. So I think your statement above contains at least two mistaken assumptions. Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 09:25:07 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:25:07 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> Message-ID: You should perhaps reread Noel's message - he is asking for someone that may or may not have any interest in the well being of the machine, but probably has a very strong interest in keeping their business afloat. There are at least a few people on this list that are experienced and qualified to help this guy out with some real, rubber-hits-the-road advice on how to help. Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Why would anyone here want to contribute to such a question? The outcome is > unlike to be contributing anything here anyway. > > (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking that people who request assistance to > maximize their profits targeting the same crowd they ask for assistance from > (for free) is abusive.) > > Johnny > > > On 2015-12-08 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an >> H960, >> running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize >> the >> value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part >> it >> out - and if the latter, how to break it up? >> >> (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned >> by >> a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) >> >> So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it >> to >> the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the >> memory >> separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is >> the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others >> think. >> >> Thanks for any insights! >> >> Noel >> > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 09:29:51 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:29:51 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208152439.2FC2618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208152439.2FC2618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5666F76F.6080208@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-08 16:24, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Johnny Billquist > > > (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking that people who request assistance > > to maximize their profits targeting the same crowd they ask for > > assistance from (for free) is abusive.) > > _I_ am not selling the item in question; I merely happen to know the seller, > and am doing them a favour (since I happen to sympathize with people whose > jobs are about to disappear). I expect they will use eBay to actually sell the > item; I am fairly certain that it _will not_ be offered through this list. > So I think your statement above contains at least two mistaken assumptions. Please tell what those two mistaken assumptions are? The two I think I made are: 1) They request assistance to maximize their profits targeting the crowd that's around here? 2) They are for free assistance in figuring out how to maximize their profits. I can't see that any of those two assumptions are incorrect. If you sympathize with them, feel free to help them. I do not see you helping them, just trying to get others to help them. Johnny From js at cimmeri.com Tue Dec 8 09:30:11 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5666F783.704@cimmeri.com> Well, for one, I wanted to answer because I understand the need to maximize income from a sale, and happen to own the same equipment they're selling. No one here has to buy this system or pay any more than they want to, so I don't see any abuse occurring. You use the word "profit" but there's no profits involved here unless for example, they bought the machine for $500 and sell it for $1000. The sale is a loss to them which they're trying to minimize (yes, I understand the "losses" might've been long written off by now, but it's still a LOSS). - J. On 12/8/2015 10:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Why would anyone here want to > contribute to such a question? The > outcome is unlike to be contributing > anything here anyway. > > (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking > that people who request assistance to > maximize their profits targeting the > same crowd they ask for assistance > from (for free) is abusive.) > > Johnny > > On 2015-12-08 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> So I know someone who has a working >> 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an >> H960, >> running RSTS/E) they want to sell, >> and they want to know how to maximize >> the >> value - i.e. whether to sell it as a >> complete working system, or to part it >> out - and if the latter, how to break >> it up? >> >> (No discussion about the morality of >> parting it out, please; this is owned by >> a business, and they need the money >> to pay people's salaries.) >> >> So which direction would get the most >> money? My sense is that parting it to >> the maximal degree possible (e.g. >> sell each drive separately, sell the >> memory >> separately from the CPU, sell the >> feet separately from the H960, etc) is >> the way to get the most money, but >> I'm interested to hear what others >> think. >> >> Thanks for any insights! >> >> Noel >> > > > From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 09:30:52 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:30:52 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5666F7AC.9070807@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-08 16:25, William Donzelli wrote: > You should perhaps reread Noel's message - he is asking for someone > that may or may not have any interest in the well being of the > machine, but probably has a very strong interest in keeping their > business afloat. There are at least a few people on this list that are > experienced and qualified to help this guy out with some real, > rubber-hits-the-road advice on how to help. > > Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the > active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector > community. Thanks. You just made an excellent argument why I should not be on this list. Bye. Johnny > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:15 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Why would anyone here want to contribute to such a question? The outcome is >> unlike to be contributing anything here anyway. >> >> (Or maybe I'm just naive in thinking that people who request assistance to >> maximize their profits targeting the same crowd they ask for assistance from >> (for free) is abusive.) >> >> Johnny >> >> >> On 2015-12-08 15:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> >>> So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an >>> H960, >>> running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize >>> the >>> value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part >>> it >>> out - and if the latter, how to break it up? >>> >>> (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned >>> by >>> a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) >>> >>> So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it >>> to >>> the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the >>> memory >>> separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is >>> the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others >>> think. >>> >>> Thanks for any insights! >>> >>> Noel >>> >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 8 09:38:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 07:38:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <5666F783.704@cimmeri.com> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <5666F783.704@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Do they have excess employed staff who need additional tasks created to keep them busy? Do they have other use for the space? Or do they have excess space, and need a way to keep the space occupied indefinitely? Piles or boxes of pieces of machine take as much or more space than assembled machine, and some of it will be around for a long time. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Dec 8 10:02:00 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:02:00 +0000 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5666FEF8.8070009@btinternet.com> Hi Noel Being in the UK the morality or otherwise is not for me to comment. I have an 11/34A awaiting restoration. So I would not have a vested interest in its market value. What I can't work out is why there's such an old system still in working order. 1. What the heck is it doing? 2. Anybody who knew how to keep such a thing running would be aware of its value. 3. Terminals, Printers? 4. I can't see any form of sale raising salary type money. 5. If its been running for any extended period then anything mechanical will be worn out with little hope of repair. 6. Moving it would probably render it inoperative. 7. Sad if its to help people but who would want to take a risk on it whole in parts? Rod On 08/12/2015 14:09, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, > running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the > value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it > out - and if the latter, how to break it up? > > (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by > a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) > > So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to > the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory > separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is > the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. > > Thanks for any insights! > > Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 8 10:02:20 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:02:20 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >> > Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know > that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP > (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to > install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and > TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't > care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where physical tape density doens't have any meaning. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 10:10:15 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:10:15 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <5666FEF8.8070009@btinternet.com> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666FEF8.8070009@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > 4. I can't see any form of sale raising salary type money. Working PDP-11 systems have been fetching good money lately. We do not know the circumstances with the business, but the sale of the system very well could keep a tech employed for a little longer - and sometimes that might make all the difference in the feast or famine world of some businesses, like engineering consulting. > 6. Moving it would probably render it inoperative. Don't hire the American Tourister apes to move it. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 11:35:35 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:35:35 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> Will wrote... >Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. J From Mark at Misty.com Tue Dec 8 11:44:31 2015 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:44:31 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151208174431.GA2053@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Mon, Dec 07, 2015 at 02:25:25PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > > As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk drives. > > I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with several-GB > > CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s > > here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards for > > half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These > > might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI > > controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash > > storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts. > > That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s. > I now know exactly what my future plans are... I had mixed results with some QBUS SCSI adapters. Some played well with the AztecMonster and some did not. Oddly, I think my Emulex UC07 was one that did not, but the CQDs and maybe one other model work fine. > But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS > (and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP > controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several > of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install > from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there > anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD > card/USB stick/what-have-you? So far, I've been using a DLT8000 when I've needed a sequential tape device, such as for the BSD2.11 install. It's been convenient to write the tape on a Linux or Sun box, then plug it into the PDP11. All my older SCSI tape drives (Exabyte and DAT) have developed problems, but this DLT8000 drive works great. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 11:47:03 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:47:03 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Well, no offense, and maybe it is a decent size piece of the pie, but there are a lot that I have found are not listmembers, especially in the big iron and (Peecee) microcomputer areas. What is the membership size of the list? -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Will wrote... >>Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. > > Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. > > J > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 11:48:32 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:48:32 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001d131e0$a7765340$f662f9c0$@classiccmp.org> Last I checked, which was quite some time ago, it was in the mid-hundreds. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Well, no offense, and maybe it is a decent size piece of the pie, but there are a lot that I have found are not listmembers, especially in the big iron and (Peecee) microcomputer areas. What is the membership size of the list? -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Will wrote... >>Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. > > Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. > > J > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 11:50:59 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:50:59 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <20151208174431.GA2053@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20151208174431.GA2053@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Connecting a scsi dlt or dat drive is something i had not considered. I thought i would have had to buy and use DEC branded tape drives. I already have a scsi dat and DLT drive in use on my SGI octane. I could probally write the image with the octane and then move the drive over to the microvax to install. Hopefully the DLT drive will be supported. the dat drive i have seems finicky at it's best. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > On Mon, Dec 07, 2015 at 02:25:25PM -0500, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > On 6 December 2015 at 13:24, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > > > As much as I love old CPUs, I've lost my patience with hard disk > drives. > > > I've been using AztecMonster (search ebay) CF-SCSI adapters, with > several-GB > > > CF cards instead of spinning disks. The KA660 and several PDP-11/83s > > > here run reliably from CF storage. I see now there are SCSI2SD cards > for > > > half the price of the AztecMonster CF adapters I've been using. These > > > might be an alternative, if they play okay with whatever q-bus SCSI > > > controller you find. Installing from SCSI CDROM and using flash > > > storage is definitely the way to go if you can get the parts. > > > > That's great news to hear that the AztecMonster works on QBUS PDP-11s. > > I now know exactly what my future plans are... > > I had mixed results with some QBUS SCSI adapters. Some played well > with the AztecMonster and some did not. Oddly, I think my Emulex UC07 > was one that did not, but the CQDs and maybe one other model work fine. > > > But I have a "random" question for those here. I know some of the QBUS > > (and UNIBUS) SCSI controllers can act both as an MSCP and TMSCP > > controller. (CMD CQD-220A/TM for one example.) And I know that several > > of the PDP-11 operating systems install from tape, and can install > > from TMSCP tape (hello RSTS/E). What I'd like to know is: Is there > > anything out there that can emulate a SCSI tape device on a CF card/SD > > card/USB stick/what-have-you? > > So far, I've been using a DLT8000 when I've needed a sequential tape > device, > such as for the BSD2.11 install. It's been convenient to write the tape on > a Linux or Sun box, then plug it into the PDP11. All my older SCSI tape > drives (Exabyte and DAT) have developed problems, but this DLT8000 drive > works great. > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 11:51:29 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:51:29 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000101d131e1$117b4930$3471db90$@classiccmp.org> Ok, and please invite those big iron and non-whiteboxPC folks here when you find they aren't on the list ;) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Well, no offense, and maybe it is a decent size piece of the pie, but there are a lot that I have found are not listmembers, especially in the big iron and (Peecee) microcomputer areas. What is the membership size of the list? -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Will wrote... >>Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. > > Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. > > J > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 11:55:41 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:55:41 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <000001d131e0$a7765340$f662f9c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> <000001d131e0$a7765340$f662f9c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I think your slice of the pie just got smaller in my mind. The community is a lot bigger than you realize. A wild guess might be in the few thousands by now. This is not a slam, just an observation. -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Jay West wrote: > Last I checked, which was quite some time ago, it was in the mid-hundreds. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > > Well, no offense, and maybe it is a decent size piece of the pie, but there are a lot that I have found are not listmembers, especially in the big iron and (Peecee) microcomputer areas. > > What is the membership size of the list? > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Will wrote... >>>Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. >> >> Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. >> >> J >> >> > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 12:02:09 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:02:09 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <000101d131e1$117b4930$3471db90$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> <000101d131e1$117b4930$3471db90$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I mention it to many of my customers and other contacts, and quite a lot either do not know, or know and are just not members. I suppose the PeeCee crowd is mostly on the forum, but the big iron people mostly keep to themselves. I suppose there are quite a few people, myself included, that would like to be on many lists for many varied interests, and just can not spend the resources with all of them. so some lists just do not make the cut. I could be on 25, maybe 35 different lists of all sorts, but I keep it down to just 5 or 6, due to limited time and brain. -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ok, and please invite those big iron and non-whiteboxPC folks here when you find they aren't on the list ;) > > J > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > > Well, no offense, and maybe it is a decent size piece of the pie, but there are a lot that I have found are not listmembers, especially in the big iron and (Peecee) microcomputer areas. > > What is the membership size of the list? > > -- > Will > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Will wrote... >>>Also, keep in mind that the membership of this list (especially the active members) is just a small fraction of the computer collector community. >> >> Eh, I'm fairly sure that a somewhat sizeable percentage of the people in the hobby most definitely DO wind up subscribing here. >> >> J >> >> > > From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Tue Dec 8 12:07:57 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 10:07:57 -0800 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> <000001d131e0$a7765340$f662f9c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2015, at 9:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > The community is a lot bigger than you realize. A wild guess might be > in the few thousands by now. I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them know about the cctalk mailing list. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 12:14:01 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:14:01 -0500 Subject: List vs. community size Message-ID: > I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them know about the cctalk mailing list. Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Dec 8 12:20:19 2015 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:20:19 -0500 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> On 2015-12-08 2:16 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi Warner, hi Brad, > ... > I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a > misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my > emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. Well, it's certainly interesting. I'm curious now whether your WDC AC31600H would work with my PIC code. :) --Toby > > Regards, > Oliver > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 12:22:09 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:22:09 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5666F42B.9030403@update.uu.se> <000201d131de$d87f57e0$897e07a0$@classiccmp.org> <000001d131e0$a7765340$f662f9c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000401d131e5$59a1e8f0$0ce5bad0$@classiccmp.org> Will wrote... ------- I think your slice of the pie just got smaller in my mind. The community is a lot bigger than you realize. A wild guess might be in the few thousands by now. This is not a slam, just an observation. -------- Once cctalk and cctech are recombined, I suspect it will be a sizeable portion of what you mention :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 12:27:24 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:27:24 -0600 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> Chris wrote... > I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them know about the cctalk mailing list. To which Will replied... >Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. Yep, 13,000 is both impressive and commendable. However, can't compare the two as the focus really isn't the same at all. Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? J From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 8 12:29:10 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:29:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd > really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... Yep full of PC stuff! -- Ethan O'Toole From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 12:40:17 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:40:17 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <4306e1.683059ab.43987e11@aol.com> bah! sacrilege! In a message dated 12/8/2015 8:30:58 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, bqt at update.uu.se writes: sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is >>> the way to get the most money, From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 8 13:19:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:19:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > bah! sacrilege! So you've got someone working for you, been working for you for years, and you think it's more important to not commit the sacrilege of splitting up an H960 and its feet, rather than to have to tell them they're fired, that they have to go home and tell their spouse and kids that their parent doesn't have a job any more? Excuse me if I don't agree. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 13:23:07 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:23:07 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <4306e1.683059ab.43987e11@aol.com> References: <4306e1.683059ab.43987e11@aol.com> Message-ID: <004001d131ed$de566870$9b033950$@classiccmp.org> Ed#wrote ----- bah! sacrilege! ----- While I understand the sentiment.... c'mon... Noel presented clear and reasonable request to forgo the judgement and assist him. Let's not degenerate to "oh, the horrorrrrrr". J From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 8 13:24:10 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 20:24:10 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hmm, -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Noel Chiappa" Verzonden: ?8-?12-?2015 20:19 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" Onderwerp: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > bah! sacrilege! So you've got someone working for you, been working for you for years, and you think it's more important to not commit the sacrilege of splitting up an H960 and its feet, rather than to have to tell them they're fired, that they have to go home and tell their spouse and kids that their parent doesn't have a job any more? Excuse me if I don't agree. Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 13:28:02 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:28:02 -0800 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: <20151208174431.GA2053@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <56672F42.9000604@sydex.com> On 12/08/2015 09:50 AM, devin davison wrote: > Hopefully the DLT drive will be supported. the dat drive i have > seems finicky at it's best. That, at least in theory, is the great thing about SCSI--it doesn't matter what the device is, so long as it implements a set of basic SCSI device-class commands. So a 9-track open-reel SCSI drive should work just as well as a DDS, DLT, SLT drive. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 8 13:29:09 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 20:29:09 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8b415717a681ad8a04f01b19c2525a47@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> Mmm, of your business depends on the value of a vintage computer. You should ask yourself if your business can survive anyway. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Noel Chiappa" Verzonden: ?8-?12-?2015 20:19 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" Onderwerp: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > bah! sacrilege! So you've got someone working for you, been working for you for years, and you think it's more important to not commit the sacrilege of splitting up an H960 and its feet, rather than to have to tell them they're fired, that they have to go home and tell their spouse and kids that their parent doesn't have a job any more? Excuse me if I don't agree. Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 13:31:11 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:31:11 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <434671.61f0fedf.439889ff@aol.com> I seriously doubt the splitting of the H960 from its feet or not will influence the outcome of a job position. In a message dated 12/8/2015 12:24:16 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hp-fix at xs4all.nl writes: Hmm, -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Noel Chiappa" Verzonden: ?8-?12-?2015 20:19 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" Onderwerp: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > bah! sacrilege! So you've got someone working for you, been working for you for years, and you think it's more important to not commit the sacrilege of splitting up an H960 and its feet, rather than to have to tell them they're fired, that they have to go home and tell their spouse and kids that their parent doesn't have a job any more? Excuse me if I don't agree. Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 13:31:50 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:31:50 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <434755.26cdab97.43988a26@aol.com> Bingo. In a message dated 12/8/2015 12:29:13 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hp-fix at xs4all.nl writes: Mmm, of your business depends on the value of a vintage computer. You should ask yourself if your business can survive anyway. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Noel Chiappa" Verzonden: ?8-?12-?2015 20:19 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" CC: "jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu" Onderwerp: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > bah! sacrilege! So you've got someone working for you, been working for you for years, and you think it's more important to not commit the sacrilege of splitting up an H960 and its feet, rather than to have to tell them they're fired, that they have to go home and tell their spouse and kids that their parent doesn't have a job any more? Excuse me if I don't agree. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 13:33:07 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:33:07 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <8b415717a681ad8a04f01b19c2525a47@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> References: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8b415717a681ad8a04f01b19c2525a47@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Mmm, of your business depends on the value of a vintage computer. You > should ask yourself if your business can survive anyway. > > > > Noel *has* my 11/34 ... and I sold another one a few years ago. Fortunately there are still a few out there and many still run. -- Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 13:34:17 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:34:17 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape come > in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them > designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that > support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot > on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. I remember TM and TS boot issues from the 80s when we were running RSTS on an assortment of 11/24 and 11/34 hardware and having to migrate tape controllers and tape drives from place to place for the installs (TMB11 + TS03, MS11 + TU80...) I still have a couple of boxes of 800bpi small reels we used on that TS03. > This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where physical tape density doens't have any meaning. Hadn't considered the implications, but sure... you would have to completely emulate the original gear or the stars won't align. -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 8 13:36:41 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 20:36:41 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <004001d131ed$de566870$9b033950$@classiccmp.org> References: <4306e1.683059ab.43987e11@aol.com> <004001d131ed$de566870$9b033950$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: To answer to that, I think selling it in complete units like disc complete with controller and complete CPU etc. will get you the most.IMHO selling single boards won't get you much more money. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "Jay West" Verzonden: ?8-?12-?2015 20:23 Aan: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Onderwerp: RE: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Ed#wrote ----- bah! sacrilege! ----- While I understand the sentiment.... c'mon... Noel presented clear and reasonable request to forgo the judgement and assist him. Let's not degenerate to "oh, the horrorrrrrr". J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 13:37:17 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:37:17 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <8b415717a681ad8a04f01b19c2525a47@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> References: <20151208191937.873F618C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8b415717a681ad8a04f01b19c2525a47@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> Message-ID: > Mmm, of your business depends on the value of a vintage computer. You should ask yourself if your business can survive anyway. We know nothing of the business situation. small consulting firms are notorious for having huge swings in cash flow. It may be that the business in question really is dying, or they may have a monster sized check "in the mail" from a client, and the owner just needs some cash to get over the holiday. A close relative of mine has a small consulting firm, and she goes through periods of months with no money coming in, even with clients owing her six figures in payments. Some clients (governments, mostly) can take a year to pay! -- Will From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 13:37:26 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 20:37:26 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <5666E2A7.5060801@charter.net> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> <5666C995.9050407@update.uu.se> <5666E2A7.5060801@charter.net> Message-ID: 2015-12-08 15:01 GMT+01:00 Jay Jaeger : > But not these - PDP-11's didn't use dual-height connectors on memory. > > Anyway, they are indeed PDP-15. (Whether or not they are actually MM15 > I don't know). The page on the memory on the provided link indicates: > > G100 > G613 > G614 > > The modules and options document on > bitsavers.org/dec/modules/modulesAndOptions sez.... > > G100 Sense Amp & Inhibity Driver, PDP15, 3 Wire, 3D Memory > Where Used: 15 > > G613 X Diode Matrix, 3 Wire, 4K, 9/I Where Used: 15 > G614 X Diode Matrix, 3 Wire, 4K, 9/I Where Used: 15 > I also happen to have a few that need a new home - I have no PDP-15. Trade for something interesting... http://i.imgur.com/6xplRge.jpg > > JRJ > > On 12/8/2015 6:14 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Careful. Some PDP-11 memory is also 18 bits wide... 16 bits plus two > > parity bits. > > > > Johnny > > > > On 2015-12-08 13:03, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like > >> this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to > >> 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. > >> > >> Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not > >> made with flip-chips. > >> > >> PDP-9 is made with flipchips and is 18 bit. But I seeem to recall it's > >> memory looks quite different. > >> > >> /P > >> > >> On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 11:58:07AM +0100, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > >>> I help cleaning out a large repository of DEC parts. > >>> There a quantity of DEC core module assemblies appeared. > >>> According to PDF docs these must be PDP-15 MM15's, but no labels are > >>> on the > >>> boards. > >>> > >>> I show/offer some of them at > >>> retrocmp.com/flipchipshop , > >>> under "core memory" > >>> > >>> Can somebody confirm they are MM15's? > >>> Are any PDP-15 running at all? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Joerg > > > > > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 13:46:50 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:46:50 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <4362d7.53e8ba2f.43988daa@aol.com> yea but I doubt a pair of H960 feet would be a make or break for her... just 'sayin.... In a message dated 12/8/2015 12:37:21 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wdonzelli at gmail.com writes: > Mmm, of your business depends on the value of a vintage computer. You should ask yourself if your business can survive anyway. We know nothing of the business situation. small consulting firms are notorious for having huge swings in cash flow. It may be that the business in question really is dying, or they may have a monster sized check "in the mail" from a client, and the owner just needs some cash to get over the holiday. A close relative of mine has a small consulting firm, and she goes through periods of months with no money coming in, even with clients owing her six figures in payments. Some clients (governments, mostly) can take a year to pay! -- Will From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 13:53:54 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:53:54 -0500 Subject: Inside The Machine: Hewlett Packard Labs mission to remake computing Hewlett Pac Message-ID: <43737e.6f33c949.43988f52@aol.com> Inside The Machine: Hewlett Packard Labs mission to remake computing Hewlett Packard Labs reveals the progress it's making in its attempt to reinvent computing for the era of big data. READ ON>>>> http://www.techrepublic.com/article/inside-the-machine-hewlett-packard-labs- mission-to-remake-computing/?tag=nl.e101&s_cid=e101&ttag=e101&ftag=TRE684d53 1 ed# From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:00:21 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:00:21 -0600 Subject: R: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 3:27 AM, supervinx wrote: > Decent... well... > Hard to tell... > If you use an external USB mini keyboard they're decent :) > There's the free version of Mocha TN5250, just for an example... > I remember using a 5250 emulator to check prices and inventory and submit labels to print on a Symbol handheld running PocketPC OS (or whatever it might have been called at that time). Ahhhh, good times. -- Eric Christopherson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 8 14:08:13 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:08:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 Message-ID: <20151208200813.7D4E418C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I seriously doubt the splitting of the H960 from its feet or not will > influence the outcome of a job position. I don't know, because I don't know enough about their exact financial state. But it doesn't matter, for two reasons: First, given that it's for a good cause, it shouldn't matter; it will help, that's all one needs to know. Second, even if it weren't for a good cause, "the splitting of the H960 from its feet" is - or should be - No Big Deal anyway. It's not like the parts are going to be melted down, or anything; they will just be re-arranged. So someone who has e.g. a three-bay system, with feet on the two end cabinets, would probably be quite happy with a fourth bay without feet. And at the same time, someone who has a one-bay system with no feet would probably be ecstatic to finally find feet. Everyone's happy, all the parts are in good homes; where, exactly, is the problem? Noel From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:08:23 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:08:23 -0500 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 References: <4306e1.683059ab.43987e11@aol.com> Message-ID: <2D19D06F2FDB4C97AE278EBB69E1F4AE@310e2> If there are enough potential buyers of a system's parts to justify breaking it up, and assuming that at least some of them actually need them, then doesn't it make as much or more sense to restore several systems back to life instead of keeping just one together? If you happen to get more for the parts, that's a bonus. Then there's the issue that today's shipping costs of anything substantial either discourages some potential buyers of the whole system or at least lowers what they're willing or able to pay for it. In the past I've had no serious offers at all for a heavy S-100 system but would have had no trouble at all selling the cards and drives for more than the system would have brought IMO. I've also seen people pay the price for a whole system because they need a particular part and ask the seller to just ship the part and keep/resell/recycle the rest. m ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 > bah! sacrilege! > > > In a message dated 12/8/2015 8:30:58 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > bqt at update.uu.se writes: > > sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is >>>> the way to get the most money, From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:27:34 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 12:27:34 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? That's the place, yes. I think CCtalk is a representative sample of most of the "serious" collectors, whatever that means. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Jay West wrote: > Chris wrote... > > I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them > know about the cctalk mailing list. > > To which Will replied... > >Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd > really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. > > Yep, 13,000 is both impressive and commendable. However, can't compare the > two as the focus really isn't the same at all. > > Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" > a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? > > J > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Dec 8 14:36:43 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 21:36:43 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Toby Thain wrote: > On 2015-12-08 2:16 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> Hi Warner, hi Brad, >> ... >> I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a >> misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my >> emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. > > Well, it's certainly interesting. I'm curious now whether your WDC > AC31600H would work with my PIC code. :) I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer but the cost of such a thing..... :/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Dec 8 14:38:03 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 21:38:03 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151208213803.Horde.3VuSJML_ad4gvfE4dK0CQ4E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 2015-12-08 2:16 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>> Hi Warner, hi Brad, >>> ... >>> I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a >>> misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my >>> emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. >> >> Well, it's certainly interesting. I'm curious now whether your WDC >> AC31600H would work with my PIC code. :) > > I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) > with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and > work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it > is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... > > Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer > but the cost of such a thing..... :/ But - if the flanks or the timing would not be right - how could the IDENTIFY command work without any error? If the flanks would not be straight or /RD is not active long enough or whatever - shouldnt return the IDENTIFY an error as well? I'd say so...... From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:44:17 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:44:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) > with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and > work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it > is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... > > Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer > but the cost of such a thing..... :/ There are some Chinese logic analyzers on eBay for well under $100. No idea how well they work. -- From pbirkel at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:47:56 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:47:56 -0500 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00bd01d131f9$b7a6ba70$26f42f50$@gmail.com> Alas: http://i.imgur.com/qhnK1JA.jpg https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/comments/3i1rk5/turned_it_into_a_time_server_and_binary_clock/ It's the binary clock that really seals-the-deal :-<. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finder Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 3:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: List vs. community size > Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? That's the place, yes. I think CCtalk is a representative sample of most of the "serious" collectors, whatever that means. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Jay West wrote: > Chris wrote... > > I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them > know about the cctalk mailing list. > > To which Will replied... > >Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd > really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. > > Yep, 13,000 is both impressive and commendable. However, can't compare > the two as the focus really isn't the same at all. > > Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" > a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? > > J > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Dec 8 10:38:57 2015 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 17:38:57 +0100 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <566707A1.9080406@update.uu.se> On 2015-12-08 17:02, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >>> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >>> >> Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know >> that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP >> (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to >> install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and >> TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't >> care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. > > One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where physical tape density doens't have any meaning. Unsubscribed from cctalk now, so I'm not sure if this will get through or not. The RSX installation tape should boot from all tape devices, no matter what density. The disk boot blocks are somewhat more specific. MSCP sits together with massbus and RK06/RK07. RK05, RL01/02, RP02/03 as well as P/OS drivers are separate boot blocks. Of those, only the RL02 is actually supported by M+. So in practice, you only see one of two disk boot blocks around for M+. 11M use pretty much anything, I'd think. Johnny From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 12:46:23 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 18:46:23 +0000 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! It's been slow recently, not many posts, and boring stuff. -brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ethan at 757.org Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: List vs. community size > Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd > really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... Yep full of PC stuff! -- Ethan O'Toole From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 12:53:31 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 18:53:31 +0000 Subject: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Yeah, I've got an account on an AS/400 right now. I like the OS, I probably couldn't do anything useful with it, but I like the look. But having an account on a remote system isn't the same as a physical system, ya know? And I don't have QSECOFR access of course. Maybe I can find one at a surplus or recycler, mm. -Brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of supervinx Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 3:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: R: Looking for AS/400 Can't help, since I live on the other side if the pond, but AS/400s are cool machines. I own a bunch of them (and some S/36s too) and I like them. OS/400 was and is a good OS (if you have clear in mind what it can and what it can't do). Meanwhile, you could request a free AS/400 access to the folks at pub1.rzkh.de and play with OS/400. It's fun to access such a beast from a... Smart Phone :) -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Brian Adams Data:07/12/2015 21:58 (GMT+01:00) A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Looking for AS/400 Hi there, Recently, I've been reading up into AS/400s.. They seem like really neat machines, and look really sharp with those matching block terminals. I remember retail stores using those, and I always wondered what kind of a system they were running on... I figured it was DOS! I've been having trouble locating one, however. Anybody have one lying around, or know of where to find one in the Toronto area? It needn't be a high spec machine, just something to play with OS/400 and a terminal. Thanks! -brian From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 12:54:17 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 18:54:17 +0000 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d131e6$16109680$4231c380$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012B0D7@TECT.stenoweb.local> Yeah, ugh that post was baad. -brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:27 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: List vs. community size Chris wrote... > I've got 13,000 on RetroBattlestations and I doubt very many of them know about the cctalk mailing list. To which Will replied... >Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. Yep, 13,000 is both impressive and commendable. However, can't compare the two as the focus really isn't the same at all. Wasn't "retrobattlestations" where some "person" was happy about "modding" a HP 21MX into an raspi ntp server? J From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 14:37:58 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:37:58 -0500 Subject: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800") In-Reply-To: <566707A1.9080406@update.uu.se> References: <5665DE2D.9030101@update.uu.se> <5665E468.9080400@update.uu.se> <15D1305B-7AB2-40EE-858D-407798F6213B@comcast.net> <5666AFF4.7020706@update.uu.se> <566707A1.9080406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: "So a 9-track open-reel SCSI drive should work just as well as a DDS, DLT, SLT drive." Oh wow. i had not even considered that. I have a pdp 11 with a beast of a 9 track tape drive in is's own rack, that would be interesting if i could get a scsi tape drive for the vax and use some big tapes to move data between the two. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2015-12-08 17:02, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> >> On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >>> On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>>> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E is >>>> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >>>> >>>> Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know >>> that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP >>> (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to >>> install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and >>> TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't >>> care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. >>> >> >> One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch >> tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, >> each of them designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on >> RSTS that support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit >> doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a >> TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where >> physical tape density doens't have any meaning. >> > > Unsubscribed from cctalk now, so I'm not sure if this will get through or > not. > > The RSX installation tape should boot from all tape devices, no matter > what density. The disk boot blocks are somewhat more specific. MSCP sits > together with massbus and RK06/RK07. RK05, RL01/02, RP02/03 as well as P/OS > drivers are separate boot blocks. Of those, only the RL02 is actually > supported by M+. So in practice, you only see one of two disk boot blocks > around for M+. 11M use pretty much anything, I'd think. > > Johnny > > From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Tue Dec 8 15:18:39 2015 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:18:39 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2015, at 10:46 AM, Brian Adams wrote: > Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! Would really love to see some of the big iron playing music through an AM radio since it's Holiday Music Week on RetroBattlestations right now. -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From rar at syssrc.com Tue Dec 8 15:22:32 2015 From: rar at syssrc.com (rar) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:22:32 +0000 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <22433E7377ECE14D9518DB3338A32EA30B144470@ExchMB10.syssrcad.syssrc.com> My kewl pictures from the System Source Computer Museum http://www.syssrc.com/linlee/ The home page for the museum is at http://museum.syssrc.com Bob Roswell broswell at syssrc.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Adams Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 1:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: List vs. community size Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! It's been slow recently, not many posts, and boring stuff. -brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ethan at 757.org Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: List vs. community size > Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd > really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... Yep full of PC stuff! -- Ethan O'Toole From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Dec 8 15:26:14 2015 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:26:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, Brian Adams wrote: > Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! > > It's been slow recently, not many posts, and boring stuff. So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen SGI Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch of PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, oh, and an nCube2... and it's boring? (http://imgur.com/LRkTseU) Harsh, man. - JP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ethan at 757.org > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: List vs. community size > >> Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd >> really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. > > Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... > > Yep full of PC stuff! > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 15:32:44 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 13:32:44 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: Ah shuddap JP, you Ncube2 stealing SOB :) But seriously I posted a BLIT a while back - That crowd just seems to care more about the Nth C64 or Apple II than the 'real' retro stuff. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 1:26 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, Brian Adams wrote: > >> Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on >> there! >> >> It's been slow recently, not many posts, and boring stuff. >> > > So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen > SGI Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch > of PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, > oh, and an nCube2... and it's boring? > > (http://imgur.com/LRkTseU) > > Harsh, man. > > - JP > > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> ethan at 757.org >> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:29 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Subject: Re: List vs. community size >> >> Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd >>> really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. >>> >> >> Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 >> documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... >> >> Yep full of PC stuff! >> >> -- >> Ethan O'Toole >> >> >> -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 15:35:21 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:35:21 -0600 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Chris Osborn wrote: > > Would really love to see some of the big iron playing music through an AM > radio since it's Holiday Music Week on RetroBattlestations right now. > I've got a tune written up and ready to record on the PDP-8/M. I'll do that tonight! Kyle From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Dec 8 15:38:17 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 22:38:17 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151208213803.Horde.3VuSJML_ad4gvfE4dK0CQ4E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151208213803.Horde.3VuSJML_ad4gvfE4dK0CQ4E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151208223817.Horde.gv57EPmGaSfJreJGsUdhYBJ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> On 2015-12-08 2:16 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>>> Hi Warner, hi Brad, >>>> ... >>>> I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a >>>> misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my >>>> emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. >>> >>> Well, it's certainly interesting. I'm curious now whether your WDC >>> AC31600H would work with my PIC code. :) >> >> I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) >> with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and >> work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it >> is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... >> >> Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer >> but the cost of such a thing..... :/ > > But - if the flanks or the timing would not be right - how could the IDENTIFY > command work without any error? If the flanks would not be straight or /RD is > not active long enough or whatever - shouldnt return the IDENTIFY an error as > well? I'd say so...... I just changed the "READ" command to a "FORMAT" command and now the drive wants me to fill up the sector buffer (which I don't do) but at least the command is accepted and does not immediatly return ERR.... what the heck? Read Buffer also works after the read-command-error - but now idea if the buffer contains anything which could help me here.... 7a424c0c0000100000e158023f001000 00000e004457572d3254393839313032 31392034202020200300000116003332 312e5536333744572043434131333036 48302020202020202020202020202020 20202020202020202020202020201080 0000002f000080020000020000000000 0000000000000001406b300000000704 030078007800a0007800000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 ... 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000007800 No idea what this gives me.... the contents are reproducable From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 8 15:42:27 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:42:27 +0000 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC46700@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 4:03 AM > I've seen a memory assembly from a PDP-15 and it looks very much like > this. Also, if each connector pair corresponds to one bit it adds up to > 18 which matches the word lenght of a PDP-15. > Of course, PDP-1, -4 and -7 used 18 bit word lenght, but they were not > made with flip-chips. Flip Chip technology was invented for the PDP-7, after the failure of the large System Modules used in the PDP-6. The only part of the PDP-7 which uses System Modules(TM) is the DECtape controller for the 555 DECtape drives. If you'd like to visit the museum, I'll happily show you the internals of a running PDP-7. :-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan at 757.org Tue Dec 8 15:45:05 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:45:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: > So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen SGI > Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch of > PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, oh, > and an nCube2... and it's boring? Cray J90 series! Does it run!? I have a J932SE and the OS core dumps on install. The media I copied was from unknown origin so I'm not sure the version of Unicos I have should run on it or not. It's been a while, figured I would end up selling it at some point (it competed with my arcade/pinball hobby.) Might put it back on eBay it gets a lot of views but no one serious has stepped up. I had a full rack O2K, my favorite large computer! I can't wait for the housing bubble in the USA to explode then it will be possible to get a place big enough to do something like that! -- Ethan O'Toole From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 8 16:20:42 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:20:42 -0600 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> It was written.... ------ Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! ------ "Kewl" machines? Yeah, keep that traffic elsewhere. J From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 16:23:03 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 17:23:03 -0500 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far out, or maybe even the Bomb. -- Will On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Jay West wrote: > It was written.... > ------ > Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on > there! > ------ > > "Kewl" machines? Yeah, keep that traffic elsewhere. > > J > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 16:32:24 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:32:24 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56675A78.200@sydex.com> On 12/08/2015 02:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far > out, or maybe even the Bomb. You forgot "rad" and "neat". Outasite, --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 16:33:11 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 16:33:11 -0600 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <56675A78.200@sydex.com> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> <56675A78.200@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/08/2015 02:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far >> out, or maybe even the Bomb. > > > > You forgot "rad" and "neat". Certain Crays were "totally tubular." From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 16:34:54 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:34:54 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> <56675A78.200@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/08/2015 02:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > >> Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far > >> out, or maybe even the Bomb. > > > > > > > > You forgot "rad" and "neat". > > Certain Crays were "totally tubular." > A lot of these old machines are "smokin'". At least if you don't test the power supplies appropriately... - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 8 17:01:18 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:01:18 -0800 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <000601d13206$af0f8ec0$0d2eac40$@classiccmp.org> <56675A78.200@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5667613E.4070002@sydex.com> On 12/08/2015 02:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > A lot of these old machines are "smokin'". At least if you don't > test the power supplies appropriately... If the power involved is sufficient, then they become "dyn-o-mite" --Chuck From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Dec 8 17:18:03 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:18:03 -0800 Subject: ModemDoctor and Hank Volpe Message-ID: <00e001d1320e$b0985800$11c90800$@net> I was wondering if anyone on the list may have contact info for Mr. Volpe the author of ModemDoctor. I attempted to send in the registration fee for his service based on the address on his website. The letter was returned "not deliverable". The site does get occasional updates so he is still around and apparently still accepting orders. Thanks -Ali From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 17:24:31 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:24:31 -0800 Subject: Looking for a PERQ Message-ID: This is a laughable ask, I realize that- but I'd really like to find a PERQ. Anywhere in the US and Canada is fair game. I am prepared to work on one in any condition, and am okay with any model. I'm definitely not asking for a handout and would like to negotiate a reasonable price. (I am aware of the rarity!) Please contact me off-list if this is a possibility. For reference, I am located in Seattle, WA. Cheers, - Ian -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 17:33:51 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 18:33:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > This is a laughable ask, I realize that- but I'd really like to find a > PERQ. > > Anywhere in the US and Canada is fair game. I am prepared to work on one in > any condition, and am okay with any model. > > I'm definitely not asking for a handout and would like to negotiate a > reasonable price. (I am aware of the rarity!) > > Please contact me off-list if this is a possibility. > > For reference, I am located in Seattle, WA. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > I rescued one for VCFederation museum two years ago. http://vintagecomputer.net/perq/ I was just looking at it this weekend. It needs a keyboard and mouse I believe. I remember there was a guy in Texas who had a few, never heard the full story though. Bill -- Bill From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Dec 8 17:50:38 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 17:50:38 -0600 Subject: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 06:53:31PM +0000, Brian Adams wrote: > Yeah, I've got an account on an AS/400 right now. I like the OS, I > probably couldn't do anything useful with it, but I like the look. I've had an account there for years, though I don't use it much these days. > But having an account on a remote system isn't the same as a physical > system, ya know? And I don't have QSECOFR access of course. > > Maybe I can find one at a surplus or recycler, mm. Having a box with full access is definitely a plus. I have a 9406-270 in my living room that I found on eBay for a fairly descent price. It's been encountering some memory errors for a while now, but seems to be hanging in there. I might have to find some replacement memory, or a replacement box, one of these days myself. There was a post on the Midrange-L list last month from someone with a couple of "old 525 systems" that he's looking to part with: http://Archive.Midrange.com/midrange-l/201511/msg00446.html I contacted him recently and as of a few days ago they were still available. I'd have grabbed one of them if I had the funds to spare at the moment. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 18:17:17 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 22:17:17 -0200 Subject: ModemDoctor and Hank Volpe Message-ID: Man...IUsed this program for YEARS. I'd be glad to register it as a "thank you" note Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 08/12/2015 21:18, "Ali" escreveu: > C A I X A E C ? N O M I C A F E D E R A L - LOTERIAS > > Alexandre Souza, > > Conforme voc? pediu, seguem os resultados das Loterias da Caixa. > Boa Sorte! > > Caixa Econ?mica Federal > > > D U P L A S E N A > -------------------- > > CONCURSO : 1444 > DATA : 08/12/2015 > > 1? SORTEIO: > N?MEROS SORTEADOS: (por ordem de sorteio) 20 - 35 - 42 - > 40 - 39 - 12 > > (por ordem crescente) 12 - 20 - 35 - > 39 - 40 - 42 > > PREMIA??O: > N? de ganhadores: 0 > Rateio do pr?mio: R$ 0,00 > > VALOR ACUMULADO 1? SORTEIO: R$ 1.178.636,10 > > ESTIMATIVA DO PR?MIO (DUPLASENA)*: R$ 1.500.000,00 > *PARA O PR?XIMO CONCURSO, A SER REALIZADO 11/12/2015 > > 2? SORTEIO: > N?MEROS SORTEADOS: (por ordem de sorteio) 14 - 37 - 09 - > 34 - 49 - 16 > > (por ordem crescente) 09 - 14 - 16 - > 34 - 37 - 49 > > PREMIA??O: > N? de ganhadores da Sena: 0 > Rateio do pr?mio da Sena: R$ 0,00 > N? de ganhadores da Quina: 31 > Rateio do pr?mio da Quina: R$ 4.072,60 > N? de ganhadores da Quadra: 1282 > Rateio do pr?mio da Quadra: R$ 93,79 > > > > > Q U I N A > -------------------- > > Concurso : 3954 > Data : 08/12/2015 > > N?MEROS SORTEADOS: (por ordem de sorteio) 49 - 04 - 16 - > 13 - 74 > > (por ordem crescente) 04 - 13 - 16 - > 49 - 74 > > VALOR ACUMULADO: R$ 7.611.144,60 > VALOR ACUMULADO PARA O SORTEIO ESPECIAL DE S?O JO?O: R$ 50.650.937,04 > ESTIMATIVA DO PR?MIO (QUINA)*: R$ 8.700.000,00 > *PARA O PR?XIMO CONCURSO, A SER REALIZADO 09/12/2015 > > > > N? de Ganhadores (Quina) : 0 > Rateio do Pr?mio (Quina) : R$ 0,00 > > N? de Ganhadores (Quadra) : 92 > Rateio do Pr?mio (Quadra) : R$ 7.801,94 > > N? de Ganhadores (Terno) : 6955 > Rateio do Pr?mio (Terno) : R$ 147,43 > > > > > > > > > > T I M E M A N I A > ---------------------- > > ACUMULOU! > > Concurso : 813 > Data : 08/12/2015 > > > > Resultado das dezenas sorteadas (ordem crescente) > 02 - 24 - 36 - 52 - 54 - 74 - 79 > > Resultado das dezenas sorteadas (ordem de sorteio) > 24 - 79 - 54 - 52 - 36 - 74 - 02 > > > TIME DO CORA??O: FLUMINENSE/RJ > > > PREMIA??O > N?mero de Acertos (7) > Qtde Ganhadores : 0 > Rateio (em R$): 0,00 > Valor Acumulado (em R$) : 558.738,90 > > ESTIMATIVA DO PR?MIO (7 ACERTOS)*: R$ 800.000,00 > *PARA O PR?XIMO CONCURSO, A SER REALIZADO 10/12/2015 > > N?mero de Acertos (6) > Qtde Ganhadores : 1 > Rateio (em R$): 61.155,47 > > N?mero de Acertos (5) > Qtde Ganhadores : 114 > Rateio (em R$): 766,35 > > N?mero de Acertos (4) > Qtde Ganhadores : 2295 > Rateio (em R$): 6,00 > > N?mero de Acertos (3) > Qtde Ganhadores : 21218 > Rateio (em R$): 2,00 > > Time do Cora??o > Qtde Ganhadores : 14260 > Rateio (em R$): 5,00 > > Valor acumulado para o pr?ximo concurso de final cinco (815): R$ 147.166,48 > > > ARRECADA??O TOTAL: R$ 1.226.806,00 > > > Confira os resultados das Loterias pelo seu celular, acesse o site da > CAIXA www.caixa.gov.br direto pelo aparelho e selecione o link loterias. ( > http://www.caixa.gov.br) > > > > Conhe?a os investimentos CAIXA: variedade e seguran?a para investir, sem > abrir m?o de boa rentabilidade. SAIBA MAIS. ( > http://www11.caixa.gov.br/portal/public/investidor) > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Se desejar corrigir seus dados ou se descadastrar deste servi?o acesse o > link - > http://www.caixa.gov.br/_redirect/push/r_logon_loteria.asp > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 18:25:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:25:39 +1300 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a PERQ-1 & -2, both with keyboards, mice, manuals, and a bunch of software on floppy disk. I haven't worked on them in... *well* over ten years. But they have bubbled near the top of the 'soon, really this time!' pile, and I might consider parting with one. Let me chew it over. Mike On Dec 9, 2015 12:33 PM, "william degnan" wrote: > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > This is a laughable ask, I realize that- but I'd really like to find a > > PERQ. > > > > Anywhere in the US and Canada is fair game. I am prepared to work on one > in > > any condition, and am okay with any model. > > > > I'm definitely not asking for a handout and would like to negotiate a > > reasonable price. (I am aware of the rarity!) > > > > Please contact me off-list if this is a possibility. > > > > For reference, I am located in Seattle, WA. > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Ian > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > I rescued one for VCFederation museum two years ago. > http://vintagecomputer.net/perq/ > I was just looking at it this weekend. It needs a keyboard and mouse I > believe. I remember there was a guy in Texas who had a few, never heard > the full story though. > Bill > -- > Bill > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 18:36:52 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 19:36:52 -0500 Subject: List vs. community size Message-ID: <44bb7b.5af4db8c.4398d1a4@aol.com> mine are old enough to be bitchen! Ed# In a message dated 12/8/2015 3:33:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/08/2015 02:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far >> out, or maybe even the Bomb. > > > > You forgot "rad" and "neat". Certain Crays were "totally tubular." From other at oryx.us Tue Dec 8 18:37:15 2015 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 18:37:15 -0600 Subject: midrange-l - WAS:::Re: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <566777BB.5030209@oryx.us> Thank you for that post, I wasn't aware of that list. I'm now subscribed. Hoping to relive some of my System/34 and System/36 days, or even better (for me) virtualized. Jerry On 12/ 8/15 05:50 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: There was a post on the Midrange-L list last > month from someone with a couple of "old 525 systems" that he's looking to > part with: > > http://Archive.Midrange.com/midrange-l/201511/msg00446.html > > I contacted him recently and as of a few days ago they were still available. > I'd have grabbed one of them if I had the funds to spare at the moment. > > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 20:01:22 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:01:22 +1300 Subject: midrange-l - WAS:::Re: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <566777BB.5030209@oryx.us> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> <566777BB.5030209@oryx.us> Message-ID: Check my YouTube channel - name is 'abaduck' (!) - for videos of all my IBM midrange machines, from System/3 to System/38, running :) Mike On Dec 9, 2015 1:37 PM, "Jerry Kemp" wrote: > Thank you for that post, I wasn't aware of that list. I'm now subscribed. > > Hoping to relive some of my System/34 and System/36 days, or even better > (for me) virtualized. > > Jerry > > > > On 12/ 8/15 05:50 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > There was a post on the Midrange-L list last > >> month from someone with a couple of "old 525 systems" that he's looking to >> part with: >> >> http://Archive.Midrange.com/midrange-l/201511/msg00446.html >> >> I contacted him recently and as of a few days ago they were still >> available. >> I'd have grabbed one of them if I had the funds to spare at the moment. >> >> >> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 21:56:46 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 19:56:46 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? Message-ID: Hi all -- I have recently acquired a PDP-8/m system that was used to drive a radio automation rig (very very similar to this: http://www.bowkera.com/kcbs1.htm ). My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of thing went back that far!) This one was used at KRDU (Fresno's Christian Radio). At any rate, it's neat hardware. All I have is the 8/m, a custom front panel (as seen in the pictures on the site I linked above) and a bank of Omnibus backplanes holding cards that would drive the tapes and mix audio. I really have no use for the tape-control / audio mixing hardware since I don't have the tapes and I'm not *really* planning on running an automated radio station out of my basement (though it does sound fun). I'm not about to scrap the stuff (it's at least useful for parts) but I thought I'd see if anyone out there could actually make use of it for its intended purpose. - Josh From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 22:38:01 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 22:38:01 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Josh, Can you call me about this? Thanks, Paul 217 766 7690 On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I have recently acquired a PDP-8/m system that was used to drive a radio > automation rig (very very similar to this: > http://www.bowkera.com/kcbs1.htm > ). > > My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were > essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape > (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with > a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a > real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of > thing went back that far!) > > This one was used at KRDU (Fresno's Christian Radio). At any rate, it's > neat hardware. All I have is the 8/m, a custom front panel (as seen in the > pictures on the site I linked above) and a bank of Omnibus backplanes > holding cards that would drive the tapes and mix audio. > > I really have no use for the tape-control / audio mixing hardware since I > don't have the tapes and I'm not *really* planning on running an automated > radio station out of my basement (though it does sound fun). I'm not about > to scrap the stuff (it's at least useful for parts) but I thought I'd see > if anyone out there could actually make use of it for its intended purpose. > > - Josh > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 8 22:40:25 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 22:40:25 -0600 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: opps, that was supposed to be off list....sorry. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:56 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I have recently acquired a PDP-8/m system that was used to drive a radio > automation rig (very very similar to this: > http://www.bowkera.com/kcbs1.htm > ). > > My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were > essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape > (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with > a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a > real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of > thing went back that far!) > > This one was used at KRDU (Fresno's Christian Radio). At any rate, it's > neat hardware. All I have is the 8/m, a custom front panel (as seen in the > pictures on the site I linked above) and a bank of Omnibus backplanes > holding cards that would drive the tapes and mix audio. > > I really have no use for the tape-control / audio mixing hardware since I > don't have the tapes and I'm not *really* planning on running an automated > radio station out of my basement (though it does sound fun). I'm not about > to scrap the stuff (it's at least useful for parts) but I thought I'd see > if anyone out there could actually make use of it for its intended purpose. > > - Josh > From wulfman at wulfman.com Tue Dec 8 22:53:03 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 21:53:03 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> The "carts" were 4 track tapes. it was a popular radio station automation system back in the old days. The first radio station i engineered at used them and i was QUICK to convert them to a computer based automation system way ahead of most other stations. On 12/8/2015 8:56 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I have recently acquired a PDP-8/m system that was used to drive a radio > automation rig (very very similar to this: http://www.bowkera.com/kcbs1.htm > ). > > My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were > essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape > (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with > a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a > real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of > thing went back that far!) > > This one was used at KRDU (Fresno's Christian Radio). At any rate, it's > neat hardware. All I have is the 8/m, a custom front panel (as seen in the > pictures on the site I linked above) and a bank of Omnibus backplanes > holding cards that would drive the tapes and mix audio. > > I really have no use for the tape-control / audio mixing hardware since I > don't have the tapes and I'm not *really* planning on running an automated > radio station out of my basement (though it does sound fun). I'm not about > to scrap the stuff (it's at least useful for parts) but I thought I'd see > if anyone out there could actually make use of it for its intended purpose. > > - Josh > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue Dec 8 22:54:16 2015 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:24:16 +1030 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5667B3F8.40502@kaput.homeunix.org> On 9/12/2015 2:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were > essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape > (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with > a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a > real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of > thing went back that far!) > Very interesting. The cartridges were probably NAB cartridges. See . I got a pile of these from a guy who worked at the ABC (Australia), mostly studio-link failure apology announcements and a few calibration tapes. The content is usually very interesting on these old cartridges. It'd be a shame if the radio station just threw them out! Alexis. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 22:59:53 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 23:59:53 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? Message-ID: <3812d.7ee7b37d.43990f49@aol.com> since we collect broadcast gear for radio and TV we would like to buy this depending on where it is located. are there any tapes too??? we are VERY INTERESTED!! thanks ed sharpe archivist for smecc. In a message dated 12/8/2015 9:54:10 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org writes: On 9/12/2015 2:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > My understanding is that this system hooked to banks of what were > essentially 8-track tape drives, each of which held a short loop of tape > (containing a song, an ad, call info, etc.) and the 8/m was programmed with > a playlist of sorts so that even in the early 70s you didn't need to have a > real DJ on premises to run a radio station. (I had no idea this sort of > thing went back that far!) > Very interesting. The cartridges were probably NAB cartridges. See . I got a pile of these from a guy who worked at the ABC (Australia), mostly studio-link failure apology announcements and a few calibration tapes. The content is usually very interesting on these old cartridges. It'd be a shame if the radio station just threw them out! Alexis. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 8 23:07:21 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:07:21 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? Message-ID: <382ff.aeae69.43991108@aol.com> YES!! DOES IT STILL HAVE THE DIABLO DISC HARD DRIVE TOO!>!>?????opps caps.... ok yes one of the phx stations had one of these and it had the 8 and the diablo hard drive PRICE???? ed sharpe In a message dated 12/8/2015 8:56:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, derschjo at gmail.com writes: http://www.bowkera.com/kcbs1.htm From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 18:54:38 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:54:38 +0000 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012B3DC@TECT.stenoweb.local> 1? Not enough, come on. Hi-Res NCube pictures please. -Brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 4:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: List vs. community size On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, Brian Adams wrote: > Would be nice if more of you people with Kewl Machines posted pictures on there! > > It's been slow recently, not many posts, and boring stuff. So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen SGI Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch of PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, oh, and an nCube2... and it's boring? (http://imgur.com/LRkTseU) Harsh, man. - JP > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > ethan at 757.org > Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 1:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: List vs. community size > >> Wow, that is impressive. However, I suppose much of the PeeCee crowd >> really does not integrate well with cctalk, and that is fine. > > Scanning the front page of retrobattlestations, SOL-20, DEC 1957 documentary, C64, POSIX Maze War, Vic 20... > > Yep full of PC stuff! > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 18:58:56 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:58:56 +0000 Subject: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012B3FA@TECT.stenoweb.local> I was considering asking on that list, but I figured it was geared toward new machines. I'll take a look. -Brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Monceaux Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 6:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for AS/400 On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 06:53:31PM +0000, Brian Adams wrote: > Yeah, I've got an account on an AS/400 right now. I like the OS, I > probably couldn't do anything useful with it, but I like the look. I've had an account there for years, though I don't use it much these days. > But having an account on a remote system isn't the same as a physical > system, ya know? And I don't have QSECOFR access of course. > > Maybe I can find one at a surplus or recycler, mm. Having a box with full access is definitely a plus. I have a 9406-270 in my living room that I found on eBay for a fairly descent price. It's been encountering some memory errors for a while now, but seems to be hanging in there. I might have to find some replacement memory, or a replacement box, one of these days myself. There was a post on the Midrange-L list last month from someone with a couple of "old 525 systems" that he's looking to part with: http://Archive.Midrange.com/midrange-l/201511/msg00446.html I contacted him recently and as of a few days ago they were still available. I'd have grabbed one of them if I had the funds to spare at the moment. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From fink at stenoweb.net Tue Dec 8 18:59:42 2015 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:59:42 +0000 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <44bb7b.5af4db8c.4398d1a4@aol.com> References: <44bb7b.5af4db8c.4398d1a4@aol.com> Message-ID: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012B406@TECT.stenoweb.local> Oh yeah? Well, my machines are boring. Beat that. -brian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2015 7:37 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: List vs. community size mine are old enough to be bitchen! Ed# In a message dated 12/8/2015 3:33:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/08/2015 02:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Yes, keep the kewl machines elsewhere. Our machines are groovy, far >> out, or maybe even the Bomb. > > > > You forgot "rad" and "neat". Certain Crays were "totally tubular." From supervinx at libero.it Wed Dec 9 01:09:07 2015 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 08:09:07 +0100 Subject: R: RE: Looking for AS/400 Message-ID: Yeah... the feeling of a real machine is different... AS/400s aren't retrocomputing cult machines so, waiting a bit, it's not hard to grab one at a decent price... From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 9 01:52:28 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 08:52:28 +0100 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC46700@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC46700@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20151209075228.GB31752@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:42:27PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > > Flip Chip technology was invented for the PDP-7, after the failure of the > large System Modules used in the PDP-6. The only part of the PDP-7 which > uses System Modules(TM) is the DECtape controller for the 555 DECtape > drives. After posting I had a nagging feeling I was wrong. I recall seeing both System Modules and flip chips(light blue?) in relation to PDP-7. Thank you for clearing that up. What where the failure(s) with System Modules in the PDP-6? cost? reliabilty? > If you'd like to visit the museum, I'll happily show you the internals of > a running PDP-7. :-) Oh yes! If/when I cross the atlantic you will have to show me internals of _everything_. Can you buy a five-day pass? :-) Thanks, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 9 02:01:16 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:01:16 +0100 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20151209080116.GC31752@Update.UU.SE> Gosh, people sure are overreacting... The 11/34 isn't the most sought after system so it might be difficult to find someone to pick it up or willing pay the shipping. The parts are probably not very sought after either so it might not be worth the effort to split it up with the hope of selling all parts. Instead I would offer it as "whole or specific parts". Perhaps someone will grab the whole system, perhaps someone local is dying for an RL02, perhaps someone really wants the header for their H960 (or even the feet). Also check for rare items, UNIBUS scsi cards perhaps, and put those in the item description. This advice I offer for free with no qualms, good luck to you and your business partner. Kind Regards, Pontus. On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:09:16AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, > running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the > value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it > out - and if the latter, how to break it up? > > (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by > a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) > > So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to > the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory > separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is > the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. > > Thanks for any insights! > > Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 9 02:08:18 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:08:18 +0100 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> Message-ID: <20151209080818.GD31752@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 03:26:14PM -0600, JP Hindin wrote: > > So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen SGI > Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch of > PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, oh, > and an nCube2... and it's boring? > > (http://imgur.com/LRkTseU) > mm, not boring in any way :) What did you end up doing with the Onyx prototype rack? Cheers, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Dec 9 02:11:21 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:11:21 +0100 Subject: List vs. community size In-Reply-To: <20151209080818.GD31752@Update.UU.SE> References: <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0B0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151209080818.GD31752@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20151209081121.GA22397@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 09, 2015 at 09:08:18AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 03:26:14PM -0600, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > So I post a picture of my workshop with 13 racks, including half a dozen SGI > > Onyx2, a pair of SunFire 6800s, a Cray J98, a Sun E10000, and a bunch of > > PDP11s, VAXes, Sun E450s/E4000s/386i, Sun 4/470s, MicroPDPs, MicroVAXes, oh, > > and an nCube2... and it's boring? > > > > (http://imgur.com/LRkTseU) > > > > mm, not boring in any way :) > > What did you end up doing with the Onyx prototype rack? aw, chucks.. should have been off list. /P From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 04:23:24 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 05:23:24 -0500 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151208223817.Horde.gv57EPmGaSfJreJGsUdhYBJ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151208213803.Horde.3VuSJML_ad4gvfE4dK0CQ4E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151208223817.Horde.gv57EPmGaSfJreJGsUdhYBJ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: Since identify and read buffer return consistent data, timing would appear to be ok. I would change the parameters used for read. iIRC you used chs =0/0/0. Try chs=1/1/1 Joe > On Dec 8, 2015, at 4:38 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> Toby Thain wrote: >>> >>>>> On 2015-12-08 2:16 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >>>>> Hi Warner, hi Brad, >>>>> ... >>>>> I don't intend to use this harddrive anyway, I just fear that I made a >>>>> misstake in my circuit or the code and others intending to use my >>>>> emulator also experiencing problems with their drives too. >>>> >>>> Well, it's certainly interesting. I'm curious now whether your WDC AC31600H would work with my PIC code. :) >>> >>> I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) >>> with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and >>> work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it >>> is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... >>> >>> Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer >>> but the cost of such a thing..... :/ >> >> But - if the flanks or the timing would not be right - how could the IDENTIFY >> command work without any error? If the flanks would not be straight or /RD is >> not active long enough or whatever - shouldnt return the IDENTIFY an error as >> well? I'd say so...... > > I just changed the "READ" command to a "FORMAT" command and now the drive wants > me to fill up the sector buffer (which I don't do) but at least the command is > accepted and does not immediatly return ERR.... what the heck? > > Read Buffer also works after the read-command-error - but now idea if the buffer > contains anything which could help me here.... > > 7a424c0c0000100000e158023f001000 > 00000e004457572d3254393839313032 > 31392034202020200300000116003332 > 312e5536333744572043434131333036 > 48302020202020202020202020202020 > 20202020202020202020202020201080 > 0000002f000080020000020000000000 > 0000000000000001406b300000000704 > 030078007800a0007800000000000000 > 00000000000000000000000000000000 > ... > 00000000000000000000000000000000 > 00000000000000000000000000007800 > > No idea what this gives me.... the contents are reproducable > From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 9 08:18:01 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 09:18:01 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> At 11:53 PM 12/8/2015, wulfman wrote: >The "carts" were 4 track tapes. They were not. They were either 2 track for mono or 3 track for stereo, and they were physically different from, and not interchangeable with, consumer tape cartridges. Radio carts were introduced in, IIRC, the early 1960s (I would have to check my broadcast equipment catalogs) and predate the Lear 8 track cartridges. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:23:21 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:23:21 -0500 Subject: midrange-l - WAS:::Re: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> <566777BB.5030209@oryx.us> Message-ID: Sorry to bust in this post but I have read the page where I sighned up and well.. How do to make a post and not just reply to others? Again sorry for the off-topic question... On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 9:01 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Check my YouTube channel - name is 'abaduck' (!) - for videos of all my IBM > midrange machines, from System/3 to System/38, running :) > > Mike > On Dec 9, 2015 1:37 PM, "Jerry Kemp" wrote: > > > Thank you for that post, I wasn't aware of that list. I'm now > subscribed. > > > > Hoping to relive some of my System/34 and System/36 days, or even better > > (for me) virtualized. > > > > Jerry > > > > > > > > On 12/ 8/15 05:50 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > There was a post on the Midrange-L list last > > > >> month from someone with a couple of "old 525 systems" that he's looking > to > >> part with: > >> > >> http://Archive.Midrange.com/midrange-l/201511/msg00446.html > >> > >> I contacted him recently and as of a few days ago they were still > >> available. > >> I'd have grabbed one of them if I had the funds to spare at the moment. > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. Have a blessed day!* From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 08:24:12 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:24:12 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> Message-ID: Do you have photos? On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 11:53 PM 12/8/2015, wulfman wrote: > > >The "carts" were 4 track tapes. > > They were not. They were either 2 track for mono or 3 track for stereo, > and they were physically different from, and not interchangeable with, > consumer tape cartridges. Radio carts were introduced in, IIRC, the early > 1960s (I would have to check my broadcast equipment catalogs) and predate > the Lear 8 track cartridges. > > Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html > > -- **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. Have a blessed day!* From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 08:54:10 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 06:54:10 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <5667B3F8.40502@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <5667B3F8.40502@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <56684092.60507@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/15 8:54 PM, Alexis Kotlowy wrote: > Very interesting. The cartridges were probably NAB cartridges. They are continuous loop, lubricated with graphite, with cue tones on the non-audio tracks. The graphite shed onto the playback head so you had to clean the heads every couple of shifts at a non-automated station. I would assume they had enough carts so that during a normal day the engineer would only have to clean them once or twice. The systems I'm familiar with were made by Gates (not Bill) in the early 70s. No computers at all in them. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 08:57:48 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 06:57:48 -0800 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <20151209075228.GB31752@Update.UU.SE> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC46700@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151209075228.GB31752@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5668416C.8030600@bitsavers.org> On 12/8/15 11:52 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > What where the failure(s) with System Modules in the PDP-6? cost? > reliabilty? > Connectors. They had over the top and backplane connectors. They also had problems with solder joints on rivets used for connecting traces on the front and back side of the pcb. I think Steve Russell talked about having to resolder all of the rivets in SAIL's PDP-6 over time in his CHM oral history. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 08:59:22 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 06:59:22 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> Message-ID: <566841CA.1030601@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/15 6:24 AM, Mike Boyle wrote: > Do you have photos? > They look just like a Lear 4-track tape, with the hole for the capstan to pop up into. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 09:00:47 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:00:47 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> Message-ID: <5668421F.7040106@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/15 6:24 AM, Mike Boyle wrote: > Do you have photos? > http://www.jimprice.com/prosound/carts.htm or do a google image search for "broadcast cart" I had forgotten the top of the cart was often clear From wulfman at wulfman.com Wed Dec 9 09:05:35 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 08:05:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> Message-ID: <5668433F.4090106@wulfman.com> Before one opens ones mouth its best to become informed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelipac yes we had 4 track nab carts On 12/9/2015 7:24 AM, Mike Boyle wrote: > Do you have photos? > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > >> At 11:53 PM 12/8/2015, wulfman wrote: >> >>> The "carts" were 4 track tapes. >> They were not. They were either 2 track for mono or 3 track for stereo, >> and they were physically different from, and not interchangeable with, >> consumer tape cartridges. Radio carts were introduced in, IIRC, the early >> 1960s (I would have to check my broadcast equipment catalogs) and predate >> the Lear 8 track cartridges. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html >> >> > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 9 09:06:03 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:06:03 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <56684092.60507@bitsavers.org> References: <5667B3F8.40502@kaput.homeunix.org> <56684092.60507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5668435B.8030503@bitsavers.org> On 12/9/15 6:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > you had to clean the heads every couple of shifts at a non-automated > station. > I hadn't ever thought much about this, but the air sound of a 1960's Top-40 AM radio station was the direct result of the invention of the cart machine. From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 9 09:41:04 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:41:04 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151209103650.03d66ee8@juno.com> At 09:24 AM 12/9/2015, Mike Boyle wrote: >Do you have photos? I don't need photos - I worked with carts from the time I entered radio (1969) until the last of my clients abandoned them several years ago. I have installed, maintained and repaired hundreds of cart machines in the course of my career. If anyone is interested I can scan and post the 1976 edition of the NAB standard to tape cartridge systems. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 9 09:46:34 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:46:34 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <56684092.60507@bitsavers.org> References: <5667B3F8.40502@kaput.homeunix.org> <56684092.60507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151209104128.03e91718@juno.com> At 09:54 AM 12/9/2015, Al Kossow wrote: >The systems I'm familiar with were made by Gates (not Bill) in the early 70s. The Gates cart machines were rebranded ATC machines. ATC was a progenitor of ITC, one of the foremost of the cart machine manufacturers. I worked with ATC machines and the rebranded Gates machines beginning in 1969. >No computers at all in them. The best and most expensive cart machines (~ $4000 for players and ~ $6000 for recorders) were microprocessor controlled - the Pacific Recorders and Engineering (PRE) Tomcat machines of the 1980s. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 09:54:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:54:03 +0000 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > I rescued one for VCFederation museum two years ago. > http://vintagecomputer.net/perq/ > I was just looking at it this weekend. It needs a keyboard and mouse I > believe. I remember there was a guy in Texas who had a few, never heard > the full story though. That's a PERQ 1 (or 1a, the difference is in the CPU board), The keyboard and pointing device for a PERQ2 series machine are very different. The PERQ1 uses a standard Summagraphics Bit Pad 1 as the 'mouse'. It has to be the GPIB version, and connects to the GPIB port on the PERQ. There was going to be a special mouse known as the 'Kriz tablet' but AFAIK it never existed. The keyboard is an 8 bit parallel interface with strobe. IIRC it's essentially the ASCII code on the bottom 7 bits and the top bit is the ctrl key. Also in the keyboard are the reset button (which IIRC just grounds a line on the connector) and the DDS (diagnostic display) which is a 3 digit decimal counter cleared by the reset button and incremented by a signal from the processor, The machine will run without a DDS, but it's a lot harder to figure out why it doesn't boot. Basically what I am saying is that while it is nice to have the right parts, there are going to be workarounds if you can't get them -tony Bill -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:21:55 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:21:55 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:54 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > I rescued one for VCFederation museum two years ago. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/perq/ > > I was just looking at it this weekend. It needs a keyboard and mouse I > > believe. I remember there was a guy in Texas who had a few, never heard > > the full story though. > > That's a PERQ 1 (or 1a, the difference is in the CPU board), The keyboard > and pointing > device for a PERQ2 series machine are very different. > > The PERQ1 uses a standard Summagraphics Bit Pad 1 as the 'mouse'. It has > to be the > GPIB version, and connects to the GPIB port on the PERQ. There was going > to be a > special mouse known as the 'Kriz tablet' but AFAIK it never existed. > > The keyboard is an 8 bit parallel interface with strobe. IIRC it's > essentially the ASCII > code on the bottom 7 bits and the top bit is the ctrl key. Also in the > keyboard are the > reset button (which IIRC just grounds a line on the connector) and the DDS > (diagnostic > display) which is a 3 digit decimal counter cleared by the reset button > and incremented > by a signal from the processor, The machine will run without a DDS, but > it's a lot harder > to figure out why it doesn't boot. > > Basically what I am saying is that while it is nice to have the right > parts, there are going > to be workarounds if you can't get them > > -tony > Tony - thanks I passed the info along to our club. -- Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 10:20:36 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:20:36 +0000 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Tony - thanks I passed the info along to our club. Some years ago I made some notes on the insides of my PERQ1 keyboard. Hopefully they will surface again when I get round to unpacking the rest of my books (after the house move..). If not then I can probably work it all out again, I do certainly have the PERQ1 keyboard here. -tony From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:27:26 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:27:26 -0500 Subject: TEST Message-ID: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> Tihis is my first post to the group I just want to make sure that everyone can see this and that I have it setup right please reply if yall can see this. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:28:30 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:28:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:20 AM, tony duell wrote: > > > > Tony - thanks I passed the info along to our club. > > Some years ago I made some notes on the insides of my PERQ1 keyboard. > Hopefully > they will surface again when I get round to unpacking the rest of my books > (after the > house move..). If not then I can probably work it all out again, I do > certainly have the > PERQ1 keyboard here. > > -tony > I found the thing buried under a pile (huge) of surplus military phones, electronics, terminals, and so on. I looked everywhere for the keyboard but could not find it. May have been crushed and discarded. Eventually this will go into the museum display at the VCF (FKA MARCH) computer museum in Wall, NJ. -- Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:29:23 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:29:23 -0500 Subject: TEST In-Reply-To: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> References: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Mike wrote: > Tihis is my first post to the group I just want to make sure that > everyone can see this and that I have it setup right please reply if > yall can see this. > Bottom post reply. You're IN MAN. -- Bill vintagecomputer.net From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 09:29:55 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 10:29:55 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566848F3.8050205@gmail.com> Hey William What is the name of your club I was wanting to start a club in my area. On 12/09/2015 11:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:20 AM, tony duell wrote: > >>> Tony - thanks I passed the info along to our club. >> Some years ago I made some notes on the insides of my PERQ1 keyboard. >> Hopefully >> they will surface again when I get round to unpacking the rest of my books >> (after the >> house move..). If not then I can probably work it all out again, I do >> certainly have the >> PERQ1 keyboard here. >> >> -tony >> > I found the thing buried under a pile (huge) of surplus military phones, > electronics, terminals, and so on. I looked everywhere for the keyboard > but could not find it. May have been crushed and discarded. Eventually > this will go into the museum display at the VCF (FKA MARCH) computer museum > in Wall, NJ. > From radiotest at juno.com Wed Dec 9 10:30:28 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:30:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? In-Reply-To: <5668433F.4090106@wulfman.com> References: <5667B3AF.2080504@wulfman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151209091452.03f83eb0@juno.com> <5668433F.4090106@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151209104737.03e332f8@juno.com> At 10:05 AM 12/9/2015, wulfman wrote: >Before one opens ones mouth its best to become informed. I have nearly forty years of experience as a radio station chief engineer, and began doing radio engineering in college in 1969. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidelipac > >yes we had 4 track nab carts Wikipedia, as is so often the case, is misleading. The Muntz Stereo-Pak system was not an NAB standard system, and never caught on, in part because the frequency response was less than that specified by the NAB standard and in part because the moving head system was problematic to keep operating properly. Because the carts were not NAB standard they could not be used with the NAB standard cart machines used in broadcast studios. See the 1976 edition of the National Association of Broadcasters publication "NAB Standard: Cartridge Tape Recording and Reproducing." Section 1.2 of the standard specifies "The Standard requires either one program track and one cue track for monophonic programs; or two program tracks and one cue track for stereophonic programs." The multi-cart playback systems that were NAB standard and were most often used in radio automation systems were: 1) Carousels and their variants (such as the IGM Go-Carts) which had one set of fixed-position heads with electronics, and could move a group of carts so that the heads engaged one cart at a time. 2) IGM Instacarts, where every cart was stationary and each cart had its own set of heads and electronics. Carts from either of those systems were the same as those used in studio machines. If an automation system failed the station could be manually operated with an announcer manually activating the reel-to-reel decks that held the music and manually playing the carts in the studio cart machines. For one of the last of the tape-and-cart based automation systems that I took care of (an IGM 770 system in the 1980s) the station purchased a pdp8/m from a used IGM system. I trained the station operations manager in how to swap out the minicomputer and get the system running again, so that announcers need only run the system manually for about 45 minutes after a failure. I lived more than an hour's drive away, and if already working on an emergency at another station might take some hours to respond, so reducing IGM downtime was a big advantage. When I did get there I repaired the defective pdp8/m and put it back on the shelf. Other failures, such as failures in an Instacart or in a reel-to-reel deck were not crippling, as there were multiples of both, but failure of the pdp8/m would halt the system. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:42:24 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:42:24 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: <566848F3.8050205@gmail.com> References: <566848F3.8050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:29 AM, Mike wrote: > Hey William What is the name of your club I was wanting to start a club > in my area. > Mike, Please bottom post in your replies. vintagecomputerfederation.org is the web site of our club. For those of you who wonder, FKA MARCH is "formerly known as MARCH" MARCH is the short name for the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. MARCH has been disbanded. In it's place we now have a non-profit called the Vintage Computer Federation. Whatever you call it, the PERQ sits quietly waiting to be restored. b From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 9 10:45:03 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:45:03 -0600 Subject: midrange-l - WAS:::Re: Looking for AS/400 In-Reply-To: References: <2d7f5jrl6o9d66y5qg294ojj.1449562970583@email.android.com> <1F2D7282636B344483822C331C7440613012A0C0@TECT.stenoweb.local> <20151208235038.GA6705@RawFedDogs.net> <566777BB.5030209@oryx.us> Message-ID: <001301d132a0$f6437ff0$e2ca7fd0$@classiccmp.org> Mike write... -------------------- Sorry to bust in this post but I have read the page where I sighned up and well.. How do to make a post and not just reply to others? Again sorry for the off-topic question... -------------------- This (as well as subsequent post) were handled off-list. J From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:46:40 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:46:40 -0600 Subject: TEST In-Reply-To: References: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi yep can see it On Dec 9, 2015 10:29 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Mike wrote: > > > Tihis is my first post to the group I just want to make sure that > > everyone can see this and that I have it setup right please reply if > > yall can see this. > > > > Bottom post reply. You're IN MAN. > > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:58:07 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 14:58:07 -0200 Subject: TEST In-Reply-To: References: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Can't see it, test failed! :) Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 09/12/2015 14:46, "Adrian Stoness" escreveu: > Hi yep can see it > On Dec 9, 2015 10:29 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:27 AM, Mike wrote: > > > > > Tihis is my first post to the group I just want to make sure that > > > everyone can see this and that I have it setup right please reply if > > > yall can see this. > > > > > > > Bottom post reply. You're IN MAN. > > > > -- > > Bill > > vintagecomputer.net > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 11:12:32 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 09:12:32 -0800 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56686100.3000607@gmail.com> On 12/9/15 7:54 AM, tony duell wrote: >> I rescued one for VCFederation museum two years ago. >> http://vintagecomputer.net/perq/ >> I was just looking at it this weekend. It needs a keyboard and mouse I >> believe. I remember there was a guy in Texas who had a few, never heard >> the full story though. > That's a PERQ 1 (or 1a, the difference is in the CPU board), The keyboard and pointing > device for a PERQ2 series machine are very different. > > The PERQ1 uses a standard Summagraphics Bit Pad 1 as the 'mouse'. It has to be the > GPIB version, and connects to the GPIB port on the PERQ. There was going to be a > special mouse known as the 'Kriz tablet' but AFAIK it never existed. The Kriz tablet definitely existed, I have half of one (it's the "mouse" portion, it basically looks like a Hawley mouse without the ball). The device is supported in the Z80 code, PERQ microcode and POS software. - Josh From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:12:47 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:12:47 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! Message-ID: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill upload some more pictures. Here is a link to the photos... http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage computers as I do. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 9 11:11:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 17:11:01 +0000 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: <56686100.3000607@gmail.com> References: , <56686100.3000607@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The Kriz tablet definitely existed, I have half of one (it's the "mouse" > portion, it basically looks like a Hawley mouse without the ball). The > device is supported in the Z80 code, PERQ microcode and POS software. Are you thinking of the PERQ 2 version that had a synchronous serial interface? That certainly exists (in both landscape and portrait versions)? The PERQ1 one looks odd... I seem to remember something about analogue signals on the interface connector. -tony From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 11:28:56 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 12:28:56 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: That is an impressive pile of stuff. Well worth the money. Post back with some pictures of it all running if you can. On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Mike wrote: > I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff > One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much > much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill > upload some more pictures. > > Here is a link to the photos... > > http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 > > My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as > soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then > I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. > Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? > > > I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage > computers as I do. > From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 10:38:22 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 11:38:22 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566858FE.2040703@gmail.com> Will do I tested it all and it's all working I just boxed it all up until I have my computer room back lol. On 12/09/2015 12:28 PM, devin davison wrote: > That is an impressive pile of stuff. Well worth the money. Post back with > some pictures of it all running if you can. > > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Mike wrote: > >> I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff >> One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much >> much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill >> upload some more pictures. >> >> Here is a link to the photos... >> >> http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 >> >> My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as >> soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then >> I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? >> >> >> I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage >> computers as I do. >> From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 12:26:13 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 10:26:13 -0800 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: <56686100.3000607@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 9:11 AM, tony duell wrote: > > The Kriz tablet definitely existed, I have half of one (it's the "mouse" > > portion, it basically looks like a Hawley mouse without the ball). The > > device is supported in the Z80 code, PERQ microcode and POS software. > > Are you thinking of the PERQ 2 version that had a synchronous serial > interface? That > certainly exists (in both landscape and portrait versions)? > It's possible -- I don't have the "tablet" portion of it, just the mouse. The cable has that odd locking connector that the PERQ-1 uses, so I assumed it was for a -1. But I may be mistaken. At any rate, the POS D.6 code (for the PERQ-1 with associated Z80 code) supports the device, so I assume it existed in some physical form even if it never saw use outside of 3RCC :). - Josh > The PERQ1 one looks odd... I seem to remember something about analogue > signals on the interface connector. > > -tony > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 9 12:28:09 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:28:09 -0500 Subject: TEST In-Reply-To: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> References: <5668485E.5060303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566872B9.3070204@sbcglobal.net> On 12/09/2015 10:27 AM, Mike wrote: > Tihis is my first post to the group I just want to make sure that > everyone can see this and that I have it setup right please reply if > yall can see this. > Nope. Can't see it. You failed... ;) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Dec 9 12:41:42 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:41:42 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in old (PDP-8 driven) Radio Automation hardware? Message-ID: <7c751.76d39af2.4399cfe6@aol.com> our phx station had an 8E with one backplane in it and a single diablo hard drive. would be great to buy one of these for the museum . Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/9/2015 7:19:06 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, radiotest at juno.com writes: At 11:53 PM 12/8/2015, wulfman wrote: >The "carts" were 4 track tapes. They were not. They were either 2 track for mono or 3 track for stereo, and they were physically different from, and not interchangeable with, consumer tape cartridges. Radio carts were introduced in, IIRC, the early 1960s (I would have to check my broadcast equipment catalogs) and predate the Lear 8 track cartridges. Dale H. Cook, Radio Contract Engineer, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcityeng/index.html From cctalk at fahimi.net Wed Dec 9 13:10:46 2015 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:10:46 -0800 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <004201d132b5$4fd4cab0$ef7e6010$@net> I am still looking for some help on this if anyone has ideas. It looks like the read/write/format board is bad. Anyone have a spare they can part with or are am I looking at a super effective door stop here? -Ali From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Dec 9 13:58:38 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 11:58:38 -0800 Subject: CDC Finch Alternatives Today [WAS:RE: Evotek Winchester Harddisk] Message-ID: <008b01d132bb$ff58fc30$fe0af490$@computer.org> The manual u cited states, "The disk controller can control either a CDC or Finch drives. All drives attached to any controller must be of one type." I'm not sure what they mean by "CDC" but if u are lucky it might mean "SMD." According to the 1983 Disk/Trend Finch interfaces were available on the Wren 9415-32 (Finch and ST506) and the Wren 94153 (Finch only). So u might look for a 94153 or a Finch variant of the 9415-32. The Finch spec data interface specs include 13440 unformatted bytes per revolution using an 806 KB/sec data rate, which are the very old at that time 3330 industry standards. There are very few small drives that use this standard, not even the 94153 (10,080 @ 605 KB/sec) so what happens with the drive at a different frequency and the controller with a possibly a different number of raw bytes per track is unpredictable. Note that 10080 x 806/605 is close enough to 13440 so any 10,080 @ 605 KB/sec drive might be made to work if the recording channel has margin at the higher frequency; unfortunately there are not very many. A bigger problem might be the command and control interface of the Finch - it is not like the ST506/412. Off the top of my head it looks like a variant on SMD. BTW SMD data specs are exactly 1.5x3330, that is 20,160 bytes @ 1.209 MB/sec so a small SMD might work if the recoding channel can deal with the lower data rate, perhaps the 8715 FSD. You might want to compare pin by pin SMD to Finch to see if this is even possible. There were some small SMDs, e.g. Micropolis 1403, Priam 804 but most were 14-inch. Perhaps there is a CDC SMD expert in this group that can help Tom -----Original Message----- From: Oliver Lehmann [mailto:lehmann at ans-netz.de] Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Evotek Winchester Harddisk Tom Gardner wrote: > Sorry If I didn't make myself clear, I am suggesting one never acquire > an Evotek drive today other than perhaps as an historical curiosity. > > > > The Finch was a short lived 8-inch HDD that went up to 42 MB > unformatted BUT according to Disk/Trend It did not use an ST506 > interface but instead came with this variety of interfaces: Finch, > LDI, SMD or SA1000! So your problem is likely to be finding a drive > that matches the interface of yr controller card. Some possibilities > > Finch interface was available on certain CDC Wren 5 -inch > models, e.g. 9415 > From what I understood in the Zilog System 8000 manuals, it is the Finch interface. http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/zilog/s8000/03-3237-04_hwRef_Dec82.pdf Page 33 - Drive Performance Characterstics Page 47 - Pinout of the WDC-Controller Disk Connector Page 65-69 - Describing Driver Configurations Here are pictures of harddisks used in the System 8000: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/Harddisk And this is the so called "FINCH Adapter Board" used in the S8000: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/S8000_boards/FINCH-Adapter-Board From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 9 14:12:54 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 21:12:54 +0100 Subject: CDC Finch Alternatives Today [WAS:RE: Evotek Winchester Harddisk] In-Reply-To: <008b01d132bb$ff58fc30$fe0af490$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20151209211254.Horde.DfGnKmg5akMKoFXC7e_xgv4@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Tony, they definity mean not SMD with "CDC" as for SMD a complete different controller exists for the system which explicitly is for SMD drives only. Oliver Tom Gardner wrote: > The manual u cited states, "The disk controller can control either a > CDC or Finch drives. All drives attached to any controller must be > of one type." I'm not sure what they mean by "CDC" but if u are > lucky it might mean "SMD." > > According to the 1983 Disk/Trend Finch interfaces were available on > the Wren 9415-32 (Finch and ST506) and the Wren 94153 (Finch only). > So u might look for a 94153 or a Finch variant of the 9415-32. > > The Finch spec data interface specs include 13440 unformatted bytes > per revolution using an 806 KB/sec data rate, which are the very > old at that time 3330 industry standards. There are very few small > drives that use this standard, not even the 94153 (10,080 @ 605 > KB/sec) so what happens with the drive at a different frequency and > the controller with a possibly a different number of raw bytes per > track is unpredictable. Note that 10080 x 806/605 is close enough > to 13440 so any 10,080 @ 605 KB/sec drive might be made to work if > the recording channel has margin at the higher frequency; > unfortunately there are not very many. > > A bigger problem might be the command and control interface of the > Finch - it is not like the ST506/412. Off the top of my head it > looks like a variant on SMD. BTW SMD data specs are exactly > 1.5x3330, that is 20,160 bytes @ 1.209 MB/sec so a small SMD might > work if the recoding channel can deal with the lower data rate, > perhaps the 8715 FSD. You might want to compare pin by pin SMD to > Finch to see if this is even possible. There were some small SMDs, > e.g. Micropolis 1403, Priam 804 but most were 14-inch. > > Perhaps there is a CDC SMD expert in this group that can help > > Tom > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Oliver Lehmann [mailto:lehmann at ans-netz.de] > Sent: Monday, December 07, 2015 11:39 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Evotek Winchester Harddisk > > > Tom Gardner wrote: > >> Sorry If I didn't make myself clear, I am suggesting one never acquire >> an Evotek drive today other than perhaps as an historical curiosity. >> >> >> >> The Finch was a short lived 8-inch HDD that went up to 42 MB >> unformatted BUT according to Disk/Trend It did not use an ST506 >> interface but instead came with this variety of interfaces: Finch, >> LDI, SMD or SA1000! So your problem is likely to be finding a drive >> that matches the interface of yr controller card. Some possibilities >> >> Finch interface was available on certain CDC Wren 5 -inch >> models, e.g. 9415 >> > > From what I understood in the Zilog System 8000 manuals, it is the > Finch interface. > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/zilog/s8000/03-3237-04_hwRef_Dec82.pdf > > Page 33 - Drive Performance Characterstics Page 47 - Pinout of the > WDC-Controller Disk Connector Page 65-69 - Describing Driver > Configurations > > > Here are pictures of harddisks used in the System 8000: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/Harddisk > > > And this is the so called "FINCH Adapter Board" used in the S8000: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery3/index.php/S8000/S8000_boards/FINCH-Adapter-Board From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 9 14:32:15 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:32:15 +0000 Subject: DEC MM15 core mem found In-Reply-To: <20151209075228.GB31752@Update.UU.SE> References: <5666B7BF.1080805@t-online.de> <20151208120301.GG4340@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC46700@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151209075228.GB31752@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC47DE6@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 11:52 PM > On Tue, Dec 08, 2015 at 09:42:27PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Flip Chip technology was invented for the PDP-7, after the failure of >> the large System Modules used in the PDP-6. > What where the failure(s) with System Modules in the PDP-6? cost? > reliabilty? Soldered edge connectors on 2 sides of the board. In order to remove or repair a board in the middle of a module (say, a bit in an accumulator), you had to carefully unsolder all the connections to boards next to it and move the wiring out of the way. Seriously fragile. >> If you'd like to visit the museum, I'll happily show you the internals of >> a running PDP-7. :-) > Oh yes! If/when I cross the atlantic you will have to show me internals > of _everything_. Can you buy a five-day pass? :-) Annual memberships are available. I'll send you costs of 1 day vs. membership privately, or you can look them up on our site under the "Visit Us" and "Get Involved" tabs on the home page. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 15:30:38 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 15:30:38 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: > Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, docs, cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought everything inside to take a better look at it all yet, although I did notice that one machine has gray function keys and the other orange - I'm not sure if there's any significance attached to that in terms of age (both machines are the breadbox type) I've already got a couple of breadbox C64s (one boxed), a couple of 1541 drives, and a monitor (1702?), so I really didn't need two more machines! But I figured that having another 1541 was handy "just in case", and the printer and modem are both kinda cool, and there are some manuals which I didn't have... cheers Jules From ethan at 757.org Wed Dec 9 15:40:35 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:40:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, docs, > cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought everything inside to > take a better look at it all yet, although I did notice that one machine has > gray function keys and the other orange - I'm not sure if there's any > significance attached to that in terms of age (both machines are the breadbox > type) I just picked up a second (boxed but rough box) 1541 drive over the weekend. Got around to testing it using a XA1541 cable hanging from my Windows 98/Dos host (Dolch 64.) This time using SC after I figured out how to navigate with it I was able to format then write a D64 image to floppy. The other dos utility didn't seem to format first so it would bomb out (but it bombs out after transfer of code to drive / establish connection.) I want to write some demos and music stuff to floppys to have on hand at events where we put out all of our vintage stuff for public to play with. I have another 1541 but it gets crazy hot (case started melting) and I haven't had a chance to crack it open to look at it. Might pass it off to someone else as I refine my collection. -- Ethan O'Toole From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 9 15:58:00 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:58:00 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! Message-ID: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Please make an effort not to top-post :| J From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:03:43 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:03:43 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, You're not alone, I'm a big fan of the C-64.. in fact, I'm just finishing up a software / hardware project to interface the C-64 to a Model 15 Teletype. Looks like quite a haul you made there! I'll be curious to know what all emerges from the heap - and of course, there are a couple things I'm looking for. FYI, I've had pretty good luck repairing both C-64 and 1541 type drives. Neither of the devices are all that fragile, really, and almost all of the chips etc. are readily available. Keep us posted! -Bill On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: > I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff > One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much > much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill > upload some more pictures. > > Here is a link to the photos... > > http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 > > My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as > soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then > I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. > Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? > > > I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage > computers as I do. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 9 16:05:54 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:05:54 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401d132cd$c63ee470$52bcad50$@classiccmp.org> Drlegendre wrote.... ---------------------- You're not alone, I'm a big fan of the C-64.. in fact, I'm just finishing up a software / hardware project to interface the C-64 to a Model 15 Teletype. ---------------------- Ditto. I've got a shelf of C64 stuff as well. Many fond memories of them and even added a c128 along the way. J From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 9 16:14:39 2015 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:14:39 +0000 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> On 06/12/15 20:57, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Right after power up and after the disk got ready, I issue the IDENTIFY > command and read the data back which works perfectly. After that I > read sector 0 and this fails. I thought the first valid sector on an IDE disk was sector 1, CHS 0:0:1? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:17:05 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:17:05 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules, C-64 key / case colors are just a matter of where and when it was produced. IIRC the original units had the Orange FN keys, with gray coming later. Case colors changed too, not sure when / why - but it might have something to do with the C-64C & C-128 models that emerged later in the prod. life. If you're not sure what to do with those 64s you picked up, mail me off-list.. I need a spare C-64 power supply, and a spare motherboard would be useful too.. -Bill On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 12/09/2015 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: > >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? >> > > Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, docs, > cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought everything inside > to take a better look at it all yet, although I did notice that one machine > has gray function keys and the other orange - I'm not sure if there's any > significance attached to that in terms of age (both machines are the > breadbox type) > > I've already got a couple of breadbox C64s (one boxed), a couple of 1541 > drives, and a monitor (1702?), so I really didn't need two more machines! > But I figured that having another 1541 was handy "just in case", and the > printer and modem are both kinda cool, and there are some manuals which I > didn't have... > > cheers > > Jules > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:17:13 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:17:13 -0200 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151207125206.Horde.Y8Kmnji64WY_h-NJEVT4z4Y@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566617D7.70400@heeltoe.com> <20151208081630.Horde.RIIwSfpge0WTVscho0Pn-1z@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <56671F63.9060406@telegraphics.com.au> <20151208213643.Horde.bO-Ch4NsJ8zBmQw2PiUKvxZ@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: A proper HP16500C or better (series 17000) is way cheap nowadays. Myself use a 16500C with lots of accessories (thank you, you know who you are!!!) and a 16505A. Maybe it can help you. I don't know if there is an IDE analyser for it (I have it for SCSI) but you can look for it. Or write a module for it. 2015-12-08 18:44 GMT-02:00 Steven Hirsch : > On Tue, 8 Dec 2015, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > I checked it now with an old 486-DX50 EISA+VLB board (rare combination ;)) >> with a Goldstar Prime 2 and an Acer M5105 ISA Controller. Both detect and >> work fine with this harddisk. No idea what mode they work but I guess it >> is PIO 0-whatever only - no DMA involved.... >> >> Damn this drives me nuts.... either I accept it, or I get a logic analyzer >> but the cost of such a thing..... :/ >> > > There are some Chinese logic analyzers on eBay for well under $100. No > idea how well they work. > > > -- > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 16:21:42 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 17:21:42 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 5:17 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Jules, > > C-64 key / case colors are just a matter of where and when it was produced. > IIRC the original units had the Orange FN keys, with gray coming later. > Case colors changed too, not sure when / why - but it might have something > to do with the C-64C & C-128 models that emerged later in the prod. life. > > If you're not sure what to do with those 64s you picked up, mail me > off-list.. I need a spare C-64 power supply, and a spare motherboard would > be useful too.. > > -Bill > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 12/09/2015 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: > > > >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? > >> > > > > Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, > docs, > > cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought everything inside > > to take a better look at it all yet, although I did notice that one > machine > > has gray function keys and the other orange - I'm not sure if there's any > > significance attached to that in terms of age (both machines are the > > breadbox type) > > > > I've already got a couple of breadbox C64s (one boxed), a couple of 1541 > > drives, and a monitor (1702?), so I really didn't need two more machines! > > But I figured that having another 1541 was handy "just in case", and the > > printer and modem are both kinda cool, and there are some manuals which I > > didn't have... > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > > > > > > Please if possible bottom post the reply. These threads become unreadable if people (no offense personally) post every which way. Hard to follow the flow. Thanks. -- Bill From earl at baugh.org Wed Dec 9 12:38:30 2015 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 13:38:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for a PERQ Message-ID: > > This is a laughable ask, I realize that- but I'd really like to find a > PERQ. > > Anywhere in the US and Canada is fair game. I am prepared to work on one in > any condition, and am okay with any model. > > I'm definitely not asking for a handout and would like to negotiate a > reasonable price. (I am aware of the rarity!) > > Please contact me off-list if this is a possibility. > > For reference, I am located in Seattle, WA. > > Cheers, > > - Ian > I know there are 4 or so in your area, but I don't think any are available. The newest one acquired is a PERQ-1 (and it is in good condition...boots just fine.... ..and just got the report that it booted about a week ago after the chassis with HD arrived) Only problem is we don't know the password for the user (and the guest account is disabled). I know about it, because I rescued it for him out here in Atlanta. And I only rescued it because I had knew Skeezics was a fan from some postings on sun-rescue years ago. I almost gave him a heart attack when I told I had picked it up and it was his, he just had to pay shipping... (it has an interesting history, I was able to contact the guy who orignally purchased it and used it at an architectural design firm he ran, some of the floppies with it are designs for jails... ) The guy who got it from him picked it up at a garage sale he had and was able to squeeze chassis, monitor, etc. into a Smartcar and get it home (with his wife). When I called the original owner he said this was the last one he had (bummer) but he remembers them fondly (and I was even able to find a picture of one in the history part of his company web site... not sure if it's the actual unit I picked up, but could be... ) I don't believe Skeezics is on cctalk, but he has a number of them. Lots of good stories, his Dad worked at 3Rivers.... Skeezics I beleive also has the OS source and got the last machine that they had left when they closed down. He works on the emulator, etc. and has been chatting with Al about PERQs as well... If you want to see about visiting his collection let me know... Earl the Squirrel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 9 14:10:36 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:10:36 -0000 Subject: Looking for a PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007e01d132bd$ab0b0950$01211bf0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Earl > Baugh > Sent: 09 December 2015 18:39 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Looking for a PERQ > > > > > This is a laughable ask, I realize that- but I'd really like to find a > > PERQ. > > > > Anywhere in the US and Canada is fair game. I am prepared to work on > > one in any condition, and am okay with any model. > > > > I'm definitely not asking for a handout and would like to negotiate a > > reasonable price. (I am aware of the rarity!) > > > > Please contact me off-list if this is a possibility. > > > > For reference, I am located in Seattle, WA. > > > > Cheers, > > > > - Ian > > > > I know there are 4 or so in your area, but I don't think any are available. > The newest one acquired is a PERQ-1 (and it is in good condition...boots just > fine.... > ..and just got the report that it booted about a week ago after the chassis > with HD arrived) Only problem is we don't know the password for the user > (and the guest account is disabled). > > I know about it, because I rescued it for him out here in Atlanta. And I only > rescued it because I > had knew Skeezics was a fan from some postings on sun-rescue years ago. I > almost gave him a heart > attack when I told I had picked it up and it was his, he just had to pay > shipping... (it has an interesting > history, I was able to contact the guy who orignally purchased it and used it at > an architectural design firm he ran, some of the floppies with it are designs > for jails... ) The guy who got it from him picked it up at a garage sale he had > and was able to squeeze chassis, monitor, etc. into a Smartcar and get it > home (with his wife). > When I called the original owner he said this was the last one he had > (bummer) but he remembers them > fondly (and I was even able to find a picture of one in the history part of his > company web site... not sure if it's the actual unit I picked up, but could be... ) > > I don't believe Skeezics is on cctalk, but he has a number of them. Lots of > good stories, his Dad worked at 3Rivers.... Skeezics I beleive also has the OS > source and got the last machine > that they had left when they closed down. He works on the emulator, etc. > and has been chatting with > Al about PERQs as well... If you want to see about visiting his > collection let me know... > > > Earl the Squirrel I'd love to see a working PERQ once more, I used one for a while when I worked briefly at ICL in 1985. Are there any near Manchester (UK)? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 9 17:24:51 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:24:51 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> On 12/09/2015 02:14 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I thought the first valid sector on an IDE disk was sector 1, CHS > 0:0:1? > Yes; it's only 0 in LBA mode. If you'd like, I can jump in here, having done a bunch of IDE software back in the bad old days. Anyone remember the glitches in the IDENTIFY command, where Maxtor got the word order swapped around on their 60MB drives, so that the total sector count was insanely (for that time anyway) high? --Chuck From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:03:04 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:03:04 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to figure it out. Joe > On Dec 9, 2015, at 4:58 PM, "Jay West" wrote: > > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > J > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:21:08 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 18:21:08 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 06:03 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: > Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to figure it out. Turn it upside down? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:21:14 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:21:14 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you guys On Dec 9, 2015 6:19 PM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > On 12/09/2015 06:03 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: > >> Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to >> figure it out. >> > > Turn it upside down? > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 18:26:49 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 16:26:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Adrian Stoness wrote: > All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you guys "Get with the times" ??!? You should be able to get with the times of the kinds of computers that you are interested in. Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the 1990s or newer. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:29:35 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:29:35 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: U guys are fickle at times. Oldest computer history stuff I have is the last remaining model of a Phillips p1000 from 68.... I've got a front panel of a 8i in pecies I found in a field that I'm slowly getting parts together to rebuild...... On Dec 9, 2015 6:26 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you guys >> > > "Get with the times" ??!? > > You should be able to get with the times of the kinds of computers that > you are interested in. > > Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the > 1990s or newer. > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 18:44:42 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 18:44:42 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the 1990s or newer." In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 6:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you guys >> > > "Get with the times" ??!? > > You should be able to get with the times of the kinds of computers that > you are interested in. > > Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the > 1990s or newer. > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Dec 9 19:32:09 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:32:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> All the email clients I have are top posting There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you don't happen to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. >> get with the times No. If your email client defaults to top-posting, it probably also defaults to no-trimming, which is possibly an even greater offense; take a few moments to trim your quotes for relevance and put your text where it belongs (which is inline after the parts you're responding to, not just moved to the bottom). If your email client won't let you do that, it is just plain broken and has no place in civilized discourse. Or, of course, feel free to be as obnoxious as you want in how you format your outbound email. But everyone else is equally free to ignore you. I know I certainly am likely to, if you insist on top-posting and/or not trimming. > Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from > the 1990s or newer. Actually, it's just plain arrogant (and/or rude). I've written up a piece which describes how I see this, which is at ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt; the last three paragraphs are especially relevant to this point. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 19:36:14 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:36:14 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: I hope I am doing it right lol On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:32 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> All the email clients I have are top posting > > There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you > don't happen to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. > > >> get with the times > > No. > > If your email client defaults to top-posting, it probably also defaults > to no-trimming, which is possibly an even greater offense; take a few > moments to trim your quotes for relevance and put your text where it > belongs (which is inline after the parts you're responding to, not just > moved to the bottom). If your email client won't let you do that, it > is just plain broken and has no place in civilized discourse. > > Or, of course, feel free to be as obnoxious as you want in how you > format your outbound email. But everyone else is equally free to > ignore you. I know I certainly am likely to, if you insist on > top-posting and/or not trimming. > > > Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from > > the 1990s or newer. > > Actually, it's just plain arrogant (and/or rude). I've written up a > piece which describes how I see this, which is at > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt; the last three > paragraphs are especially relevant to this point. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. Have a blessed day!* From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Dec 9 19:43:18 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:43:18 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151210014318.GA4914@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Dec 09, 2015 at 07:03:04PM -0500, Joseph Lang wrote: > Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to > figure it out. I've never figured it out either. My iPhone is great for a lot of things. E-Mail isn't one of them. I stick with a PC and Mutt for e-mail. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Dec 9 19:48:35 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 17:48:35 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 16:03 , Joseph Lang wrote: > > Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to figure it out. Just move the cursor under the quoted text and start typing. It's no different than using a keyboard, except that you use your thumb instead of arrow keys, and there's generally a lot more swearing involved as you fumble about trying to select parts of the quote that you want to trim. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:08:29 2015 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:08:29 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> Message-ID: on my phone it doesnt show the quoted text it hides it till i send or i would just delete the stuff out... and my computer it seems to hide the stuff > > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 9 20:16:28 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 21:16:28 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <7F911CB1-1E42-4041-9432-BEB78FDD9972@sbcglobal.net> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > on my phone it doesnt show the quoted text it hides it till i send or i > would just delete the stuff out... > > and my computer it seems to hide the stuff >> >> The iPhone does show what you are replying to, and it's quite easy to get to the bottom to post. The signature, however, can only (annoyingly) be before the quoted message. Sent from my iPhone 4S... From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:27:58 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:27:58 -0700 Subject: Four-phase non-overlapping clock generator using PIC microcontroller Message-ID: In the 1970s, some microprocessors and support chips used four-phase NMOS logic. Some, including the Rockwell PPS-4 and PPS-8, generated the four non-overlapping clock phases on-chip based on two external clock inputs, while others, including the TI TMS9900, the Western Digital CP1600 chip set (used in DEC LSI-11 and Alpha Micro AM100), and the WD9000 chipset (used in Pascal Microengine), required an external four-phase clock generator. Typically the four-phase clock inputs required a voltage swing close to the Vss and Vdd supply rails (0 to +12V). TI and Western Digital offered support chips to generate the four-phase clock, although it was often done with a crystal, 74S logic, and MOS drivers such as the National Semiconductor MH0026 dual MOS driver or the Intel 3245 quad MOS driver. I've recently had occasion to work on interfacing to some of these old chips, and wanted a modern four-phase clock generator. I've just written and tested code to use a Microchip PIC16F1575 as a clock generator, though it only has 5V outputs, so it will require external gate drivers, such as a Microchip TC4469 quad gate driver, to obtain the 12V swing. The PIC16F1575 is a fairly new part using Microchip's enhanced midrange core. It is in a 14-pin package, has an internal oscillator, PLL, and four 16-bit PWM modules. The PWM modules can operate independently, but for this purpose it was convenient that they can be synchronized. I've configured the PIC to use the 8 MHz internal oscillator, with a 4x PLL for a 32 MHz clock going into the processor and the PWM modules. The CPU speed doesn't matter, but that gives timing resolution of around 31ns for the PWM. I've configured the PWMs for a period of 16 clock cycles (500 ns, 2 MHz), clock high pulses of three clock cycles (93ns), and delay between phases of one clock cycle (31ns). This could be trivially changed to a 2.67 MHz clock by reducing the period to 12 cycles and hte clock high pulses to two clock cycles (62ns). Either set of timings is within the specifications of the TI and Western Digital parts. A word of caution: when using gate drivers to drive old NMOS parts, I recommend the use of series resistors of at least 10 ohms and schottky diode clamps to Vss and Vdd, to ensure that undershoot and overshoot (due to ringing) are limited to 0.3V. The C source code is released under the GPLv3 license on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/4phaseclk From spc at conman.org Wed Dec 9 20:45:40 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 21:45:40 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20151210024540.GA5916@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mike Boyle once stated: > > **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any > attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. > The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named > above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any > disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this > information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, > please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all > electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. > Have a blessed day!* Um ... what, exactly, is the purpose of this text? Your email address is gmail.com so I'm assuming you aren't using your employer's email server for this. There is no guarantee that I've destroyed all electronic and non-electronic copies of this communication and even if I didn't follow through, there's no way for you to know I didn't (or anyone else that received this *on a public mailing list*). -spc (By reading this email, you have agreed to the terms of service ... ) From pete at pski.net Wed Dec 9 20:52:29 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 21:52:29 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <20151210024540.GA5916@brevard.conman.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151210024540.GA5916@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <8B69B810-44F2-44B1-8AD3-701B8E96C531@pski.net> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:45 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Mike Boyle once stated: >> >> **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any >> attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. >> The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named >> above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any >> disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this >> information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, >> please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all >> electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. >> Have a blessed day!* > > Um ... what, exactly, is the purpose of this text? Your email address is > gmail.com so I'm assuming you aren't using your employer's email server for > this. There is no guarantee that I've destroyed all electronic and > non-electronic copies of this communication and even if I didn't follow > through, there's no way for you to know I didn't (or anyone else that > received this *on a public mailing list*). > > -spc (By reading this email, you have agreed to the terms of service ... ) This email will self destruct in 5?4?3?2?.1? ***poof*** From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:03:09 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:03:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Adrian Stoness wrote: > U guys are fickle at times. Oldest computer history stuff I have is the > last remaining model of a Phillips p1000 from 68.... I've got a front panel > of a 8i in pecies I found in a field that I'm slowly getting parts together > to rebuild...... and therefore, you can argue that you are entitled to use the style that was prevalent at the time of your machines. In 1968, . . . I don't remember much of those days, and most who claim to remember them probably weren't there. I remember only random bits of what I was doing then - toiling 1968-1971 at Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Building 26 Space Sciences Data Center, doing some APL, FORTRAN, writing some trivial code to graph results from Generalized Least Squares Program on Calcomp 570?, 780?, and SC4020/SD4060, and gofer for a British physicist doing on-site contract studies about Van Allen belts. There were few messages other than warnings of impending outages and being pre-empted from the 360 9x machines for active missions, etc. We were rather concerned with overhead, and any replies would have had very little of the message that we were replying to. If there was any quoting, it would be a bare few words, folloewed by reply. Lack of excess quoting might have been mostly due to no automated insertion of old message, and therefore a need to manually type it. I remember of the very few, one of my last messages there was right before XMAS - we earned massive bonuses that year, our company allocated it as major cash bonuses to upper executives, and gave each of us a gift certificate towards a turkey, and then informed us that because there had been an unscheduled holiday earlier in the year, that we would have to take XMAS as "vacation". I sent a note that I had vacation plans, please arrange to have the building opened so we could come in and work. IIRC, I closed with "HAPPY HUMBUG". (no lc available) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:05:13 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:05:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: > "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the > 1990s or newer." On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, drlegendre . wrote: > In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. I thought that it was the other way around From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:11:05 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:11:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >>> All the email clients I have are top posting On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mouse wrote: > There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you > don't happen to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. > >>> get with the times > No. Right on. Can I REFUSE to accept modern "reality"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:13:18 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:13:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > on my phone it doesnt show the quoted text it hides it till i send or i > would just delete the stuff out... On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Adrian Stoness wrote: > and my computer it seems to hide the stuff I suspect that the culprit for THAT is the software that you are running, not the hardware. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 21:16:20 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:16:20 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 7:44 PM Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the > 1990s or newer." > > In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:35:50 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:35:50 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5668F316.3030904@deltasoft.com> On 12/9/2015 1:58 PM, Jay West wrote: > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > J > > ...or we'll cut you. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Dec 9 21:38:32 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 19:38:32 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5668F3B8.4020506@deltasoft.com> On 12/9/2015 4:21 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 12/09/2015 06:03 PM, Joseph Lang wrote: >> Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to >> figure it out. > > Turn it upside down? > Better yet, don't use a telephone. g. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 21:42:47 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:42:47 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:05 PM Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! >> "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >> 1990s or newer." > > On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >> In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. > > I thought that it was the other way around You mean as in "there's only one way to do something (the Party Line/the way it's always been done), regardless of how most of the rest of the world does it, and anyone deviating from that will be publicly chastised/criticised (unless they seem to rate an exemption for some reason)?" Personally, I find bottom-posting a huge PITA, both sending and receiving, although trimming and inline posting certainly have their place. m From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 21:57:31 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:57:31 -0700 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 8:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Can I REFUSE to accept modern "reality"? Of course you can. Reality is by definition that which obstinately exists regardless of your beliefs or lack thereof. The Right Ordinary Horatio Jackson: "I'm afraid, sir, you have rather a weak grasp of reality." Baron Munchausen: "Your 'reality', sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." - _The Adventures of Baron Munchausen_ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 9 22:14:44 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 20:14:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... also Michael Dell Carly Fiorina Mark Zuckerberg Sarah Palin Meg Whitman Paris Hilton Bill Gates From dave at 661.org Wed Dec 9 23:23:42 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 05:23:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > > >>> "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >>> 1990s or newer." >> >> On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >>> In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. >> >> I thought that it was the other way around > > You mean as in "there's only one way to do something (the Party Line/the > way it's always been done), regardless of how most of the rest of the > world does it, and anyone deviating from that will be publicly > chastised/criticised (unless they seem to rate an exemption for some > reason)?" > > Personally, I find bottom-posting a huge PITA, both sending and > receiving, although trimming and inline posting certainly have their > place. Top-posting is like taking a crap in your pants because that's where your arse was when you needed to go. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 23:36:51 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 03:36:51 -0200 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> Message-ID: weren't all talking about C64s??? ":) 2015-12-10 3:23 GMT-02:00 : > On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mike Stein wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Fred Cisin" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:05 PM >> Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! >> Deal of a lifetime!!! >> >> >> "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >>>> 1990s or newer." >>>> >>> >>> On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >>> >>>> In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. >>>> >>> >>> I thought that it was the other way around >>> >> >> You mean as in "there's only one way to do something (the Party Line/the >> way it's always been done), regardless of how most of the rest of the world >> does it, and anyone deviating from that will be publicly >> chastised/criticised (unless they seem to rate an exemption for some >> reason)?" >> >> Personally, I find bottom-posting a huge PITA, both sending and >> receiving, although trimming and inline posting certainly have their place. >> > > Top-posting is like taking a crap in your pants because that's where your > arse was when you needed to go. > > > -- > David Griffith > dave at 661.org > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 9 23:58:34 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 06:58:34 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/09/2015 02:14 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> >> I thought the first valid sector on an IDE disk was sector 1, CHS >> 0:0:1? >> > > > Yes; it's only 0 in LBA mode. > And this is whst I do/did. The drive supports LBA. I also tried CHS with it and oft course i used cyl 0, head 0 and sector 1 without success. I now ordered a cheap chinese LA From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Dec 9 20:34:54 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 21:34:54 -0500 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 Message-ID: I got the power cord for the microvax 3800 in the mail today. I checked the fans as someone suggested, they Spin nice and smooth. I Iooked over everything, nothing seems out of place. I powered the machine on. Very quiet. I expected it to be much louder. I turned the machine on and nothing exploded. The KA660 cpu board has that little red lcd display ion it. A F is displayed. Not sure if that is normal or not. I need a console cable. I have a vt100 that works over here. What is the cable called, is it something i could buy, or is it something that is easy enough to make? --Devin On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 3:37 PM, devin davison wrote: > "So a 9-track open-reel SCSI drive should work just as well as a DDS, > DLT, SLT drive." > > Oh wow. i had not even considered that. I have a pdp 11 with a beast of a > 9 track tape drive in is's own rack, that would be interesting if i could > get a scsi tape drive for the vax and use some big tapes to move data > between the two. > > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:38 AM, Johnny Billquist > wrote: > >> On 2015-12-08 17:02, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 2015-12-07 20:36, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>> >>>> On 7 December 2015 at 14:29, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think all (modern PDP-11) OSes can install from TMSCP tapes. RSTS/E >>>>> is >>>>> more picky than some others, though, if I remember right... >>>>> >>>>> Yes, RSTS/E installs from TMSCP just fine (as can RSX-11/M+); I know >>>> that in simh you can bring up Ultrix-11 3.1 only on TMSCP >>>> (specifically a TK50), at least if you want all of the packages to >>>> install. I've installed RSTS/E 10.1-L from MASSBUS, TS11, TM11, and >>>> TMSCP in my various experimentation with emulation, it really doesn't >>>> care what the tape is as long as your SYSGEN device is consistent. >>>> >>> >>> One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch >>> tape come in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, >>> each of them designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on >>> RSTS that support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit >>> doesn't boot on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a >>> TMSCP controller. This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where >>> physical tape density doens't have any meaning. >>> >> >> Unsubscribed from cctalk now, so I'm not sure if this will get through or >> not. >> >> The RSX installation tape should boot from all tape devices, no matter >> what density. The disk boot blocks are somewhat more specific. MSCP sits >> together with massbus and RK06/RK07. RK05, RL01/02, RP02/03 as well as P/OS >> drivers are separate boot blocks. Of those, only the RL02 is actually >> supported by M+. So in practice, you only see one of two disk boot blocks >> around for M+. 11M use pretty much anything, I'd think. >> >> Johnny >> >> > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:34:49 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:34:49 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <034094D6C4DC4D8D86A049BF70D6C9E1@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 5:03 PM Subject: Re: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > Hi Mike, > > You're not alone, I'm a big fan of the C-64.. in fact, I'm just finishing > up a software / hardware project to interface the C-64 to a Model 15 > Teletype. > > Looks like quite a haul you made there! I'll be curious to know what all > emerges from the heap - and of course, there are a couple things I'm > looking for. FYI, I've had pretty good luck repairing both C-64 and 1541 > type drives. Neither of the devices are all that fragile, really, and > almost all of the chips etc. are readily available. > > Keep us posted! > > -Bill > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: > >> I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff >> One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much >> much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill >> upload some more pictures. >> >> Here is a link to the photos... >> >> http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 >> >> My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as >> soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then >> I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? >> >> >> I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage >> computers as I do. >> ----- Reply ----- (Bottom-posting because apparently it's easier to follow ;-) Although the web site suggests that the TPUG store is still open it is essentially closed; nevertheless there's still a fair bit of stuff available. If anyone's looking for something and is prepared to pay exorbitant Canadian postage, just send an email. Surprised to see so much interest in C64s on a 'serious' list... m From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 10 00:38:10 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:38:10 -0800 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Mike wrote: > > Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? LOL! Yes! Though sadly I lack the time to do anything with my C-64. It and my PDP-11/73 are my favorite classic computers. The only thing I?ve done in ages that?s even remotely Classic Computer related is to start working on learning how to program my Atari 2600. Zane From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Dec 10 00:38:16 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:38:16 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! Message-ID: <31898d.44f992cb.439a77d7@aol.com> many high paid cios started with a vic 20 or a c 64! everyone has their treasured first.... Ed# In a message dated 12/9/2015 11:34:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mhs.stein at gmail.com writes: Surprised to see so much interest in C64s on a 'serious' list... m From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:44:02 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 00:44:02 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <806612D2-6369-4AAD-8509-D10472B322C7@gmail.com> This is a bit like the old toilet seat up/down argument... On Dec 9, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Jay West wrote: > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > J > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 00:55:36 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 22:55:36 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> On 12/09/2015 09:58 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > And this is whst I do/did. The drive supports LBA. I also tried CHS > with it and oft course i used cyl 0, head 0 and sector 1 without > success. > > I now ordered a cheap chinese LA When you say that you get an error, exactly what is the error (status bytes)? Before you issue the command, exactly what do the drive registers contain? --Chuck From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:37:25 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:37:25 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <8B69B810-44F2-44B1-8AD3-701B8E96C531@pski.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151210024540.GA5916@brevard.conman.org> <8B69B810-44F2-44B1-8AD3-701B8E96C531@pski.net> Message-ID: <56691DA5.9090507@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 09:52 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:45 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> It was thus said that the Great Mike Boyle once stated: >>> **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any >>> attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. >>> The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named >>> above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any >>> disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this >>> information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, >>> please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all >>> electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. >>> Have a blessed day!* >> Um ... what, exactly, is the purpose of this text? Your email address is >> gmail.com so I'm assuming you aren't using your employer's email server for >> this. There is no guarantee that I've destroyed all electronic and >> non-electronic copies of this communication and even if I didn't follow >> through, there's no way for you to know I didn't (or anyone else that >> received this *on a public mailing list*). >> >> -spc (By reading this email, you have agreed to the terms of service ... ) > This email will self destruct in 5?4?3?2?.1? ***poof*** It's a leagle thing. From microtechdart at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:38:17 2015 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (Microtech Dart) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:38:17 -0600 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk> References: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: Just a quick update here, I believe that I have finally cracked the code on the CRC polynomial/model for this enigmatic Kennedy 64XX QIC tape format. Please see http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/2015/09/kennedy-6450-tape-drive-data-format.html#CRC Here are the core findings: For both 4096 and 8192-byte data blocks: width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x0002 refin=false refout=false xorout=0xfffd check=0x2119 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 0002 -x fffd -c -f Block.bin --OR-- width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x8001 refin=false refout=false xorout=0x7ffe check=0x2119 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 8001 -x 7ffe -c -f Block.bin (For 4096-byte data blocks only?) width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0xbffe refin=false refout=false xorout=0x0000 check=0x26e7 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i bffe -c -f Block.bin (For 8192-byte data blocks only?) width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x5ffc refin=false refout=false xorout=0x0000 check=0x62e7 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 5ffc -c -f Block.bin CRC_RevEng was a BIG help, once I got more comfortable using it. Has anyone here ever seen models like this for CRCs in any other media storage tech? Maybe CRCs on open reel tape (if they had any?), or CRCs on hard drives? My grasp on CRC math and formulas is still at the novice level, however. I am thrown by the fact that the derived model requires an XorOUT parameter value in order to work properly on both the 4096 and the 8192-byte blocks found on these tapes. My self-written program that decodes these tapes doesn't have the ability to input an XorOUT value, mostly because I don't really understand what it means. I read in the CRC_RevEng Users Guide: "-x XOROUT: A hexadecimal digit string specifying the value to be added to the final shift register value before output." I did find models with no XorOUT value required that work either for the 4096-byte blocks, and a different one for the 8192-byte blocks. I created a work-around in my program by selecting a different model based on the size of the block being analyzed. Does anyone here have any insight as to why these models will consistently work for one, but not the other, and vice-versa? Again, thanks everyone for the great knowledgeable input. Your shared knowledge has goten me to this point on these projects. -AJ http://MightyFrame.com http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Ah, I thought you were writing a specific program, but if you're > just documenting things then specifying the CRC polynomial and > the init value as all-ones should be sufficient. > > The corresponding init parameter of reveng is "-i ffff". > > On 15/11/15 23:52, Microtech Dart wrote: > >> Lawrence, Dwight & Chuck...thank you! >> >> The revelation that I can append 84CF to the 512-byte data block and the >> 4-byte block address, is golden, and this works! >> > The other thing to point out is that if you append the CRC to > your original block, the resulting CRC should be 0000. > > e.g. 84 CF FF FF gives 0000 > > This means there's no need to do a specific 'CRC check', but > after your data block you keep feeding the CRC bytes in and > then check that the result is 0000. > > >> It would have taken a lot longer for me to figure out on my own that this >> was a work-around, and at least one working interpretation of the >> confusing >> text I was quoting from the manuals. >> >> I don't grasp all of the rest of what you shared fully, but now I at least >> have an example of something that works to play with, and from there, I >> hope to get more comfortable with this procedure, and write some programs >> that do this checking to validate each block I read with my Universal QIC >> reader system. >> >> I've updated my web page about QIC-24 decoding CRC section to include this >> knowledge: >> >> >> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC >> > When specifying a CRC it's always good to provide a short > example that can be used to validate an implementation - it > doesn't need to be a whole block, but just 10 or so bytes > together with the resulting CRC. > >> >> Thank you again! >> >> -AJ >> >> -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:39:39 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:39:39 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> Message-ID: <56691E2B.6080808@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 10:16 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drlegendre ." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 7:44 PM > Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > > >> "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >> 1990s or newer." >> >> In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. > I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... Uhhhhh HuH??? From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:45:58 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:45:58 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <5668F316.3030904@deltasoft.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <5668F316.3030904@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <56691FA6.1070000@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 10:35 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On 12/9/2015 1:58 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Please make an effort not to top-post :| >> >> J >> >> > ...or we'll cut you. > > g. > Will do! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:48:38 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:48:38 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> Message-ID: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 10:42 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 10:05 PM > Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > > >>> "Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >>> 1990s or newer." >> On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, drlegendre . wrote: >>> In addition to being a sign of secretly harbored communist sympathies. >> I thought that it was the other way around > You mean as in "there's only one way to do something (the Party Line/the way it's always been done), regardless of how most of the rest of the world does it, and anyone deviating from that will be publicly chastised/criticised (unless they seem to rate an exemption for some reason)?" > > Personally, I find bottom-posting a huge PITA, both sending and receiving, although trimming and inline posting certainly have their place. > > m So just to be sure This is the correct way to post?? from the bottom. in my online gmail i dont get all the rest just the reply I will have to look at the settings i guess. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:50:21 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:50:21 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> Message-ID: <566920AD.2010408@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 11:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >> I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... > > also > Michael Dell > Carly Fiorina > Mark Zuckerberg > Sarah Palin > Meg Whitman > Paris Hilton > Bill Gates > And he is one of the smartest finatual men in the world and soon he will be your pres.... CRAZY hmmmmm. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:53:22 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:53:22 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <034094D6C4DC4D8D86A049BF70D6C9E1@310e2> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <034094D6C4DC4D8D86A049BF70D6C9E1@310e2> Message-ID: <56692162.4090209@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 01:34 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drlegendre ." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2015 5:03 PM > Subject: Re: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! > > >> Hi Mike, >> >> You're not alone, I'm a big fan of the C-64.. in fact, I'm just finishing >> up a software / hardware project to interface the C-64 to a Model 15 >> Teletype. >> >> Looks like quite a haul you made there! I'll be curious to know what all >> emerges from the heap - and of course, there are a couple things I'm >> looking for. FYI, I've had pretty good luck repairing both C-64 and 1541 >> type drives. Neither of the devices are all that fragile, really, and >> almost all of the chips etc. are readily available. >> >> Keep us posted! >> >> -Bill >> >> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: >> >>> I was searching Craigslist and found this post with 7 boxes of C64 stuff >>> One C64 was still in the box, hard to find games great books and much >>> much more here is a link to what I got! once I have it all setup Ill >>> upload some more pictures. >>> >>> Here is a link to the photos... >>> >>> http://s1093.photobucket.com/user/mikesatcshop/library/Commodore%2064 >>> >>> My wife is using my table that I am going to use to set it all up so as >>> soon as she is done I will set it all up so you guys can see it all then >>> I am sure I will have a few questions for the group. >>> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? >>> >>> >>> I hope I can meet lots of other people that have a love for vintage >>> computers as I do. >>> > ----- Reply ----- > (Bottom-posting because apparently it's easier to follow ;-) > > Although the web site suggests that the TPUG store is still open it is essentially closed; > nevertheless there's still a fair bit of stuff available. If anyone's looking for something > and is prepared to pay exorbitant Canadian postage, just send an email. > > Surprised to see so much interest in C64s on a 'serious' list... > > m I am coding a game using an old D & D " Choose your own adventure book" Ill post it here when done... From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 00:55:12 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 01:55:12 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 01:38 AM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 8:12 AM, Mike wrote: >> >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? > LOL! Yes! Though sadly I lack the time to do anything with my C-64. It and my PDP-11/73 are my favorite classic computers. > > The only thing I?ve done in ages that?s even remotely Classic Computer related is to start working on learning how to program my Atari 2600. > > Zane > > That sounds interesting How is that even done? I know there was a Atari cart they came out with is that what your talking about? From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:01:22 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:01:22 -0500 Subject: Castlevaina for the Commodore 64 Message-ID: <56692342.6060204@gmail.com> I have a mint copy with all the passwords if you need a copy of the passwords let me know I am going to have to type them in because they are printed on DARK brown paper with black text you cant scan it I tried so let me know if any of ya need them... Also it surprisingly has pretty good graphics for the first version of Castlevaina or I think it is... From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:11:49 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:11:49 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566925B5.9010207@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 04:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 12/09/2015 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: >> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? > > Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, > docs, cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought > everything inside to take a better look at it all yet, although I did > notice that one machine has gray function keys and the other orange - > I'm not sure if there's any significance attached to that in terms of > age (both machines are the breadbox type) > > I've already got a couple of breadbox C64s (one boxed), a couple of > 1541 drives, and a monitor (1702?), so I really didn't need two more > machines! But I figured that having another 1541 was handy "just in > case", and the printer and modem are both kinda cool, and there are > some manuals which I didn't have... > > cheers > > Jules > > > WOW sounds like ya got a good haul hope ya did not have to pay to much! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:13:29 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:13:29 -0500 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56692619.8050105@gmail.com> On 12/09/2015 05:17 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Jules, > > C-64 key / case colors are just a matter of where and when it was produced. > IIRC the original units had the Orange FN keys, with gray coming later. > Case colors changed too, not sure when / why - but it might have something > to do with the C-64C & C-128 models that emerged later in the prod. life. > > If you're not sure what to do with those 64s you picked up, mail me > off-list.. I need a spare C-64 power supply, and a spare motherboard would > be useful too.. > > -Bill > > On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 12/09/2015 10:12 AM, Mike wrote: >> >>> Are there any other Commodore 64 users out there? >>> >> Funny, I just picked up two boxed machines today, along with a 1541, docs, >> cables, modem, and a VIC-1525 printer. I've not brought everything inside >> to take a better look at it all yet, although I did notice that one machine >> has gray function keys and the other orange - I'm not sure if there's any >> significance attached to that in terms of age (both machines are the >> breadbox type) >> >> I've already got a couple of breadbox C64s (one boxed), a couple of 1541 >> drives, and a monitor (1702?), so I really didn't need two more machines! >> But I figured that having another 1541 was handy "just in case", and the >> printer and modem are both kinda cool, and there are some manuals which I >> didn't have... >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> >> >> >> I thought the orange was the UK 64's From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Dec 10 02:18:47 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:18:47 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/09/2015 09:58 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> And this is whst I do/did. The drive supports LBA. I also tried CHS >> with it and oft course i used cyl 0, head 0 and sector 1 without >> success. >> >> I now ordered a cheap chinese LA > > When you say that you get an error, exactly what is the error > (status bytes)? Before you issue the command, exactly what do the > drive registers contain? After the command is issued, The status register has the ERR bit set, and the error register has the ABRT bit set. With drive registers you mean sector, cylinder and so on? for LBA: while ( pata_bsy() ) {} write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_COUNT_REGISTER, 1 ); write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_NUMBER_REGISTER, 0 ); write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_LOW_REGISTER, 0 ); write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_HIGH_REGISTER, 0 ); write_io_register ( PATA_RW_DEVICE_HEAD_REGISTER, 0xa0 ); write_io_register ( PATA_W_COMMAND_REGISTER, 0x21 ); while ( pata_bsy() ) {} if ( pata_err() ) { return; } while ( !pata_drq() ) {} pata_bsy, _drq and _err check the status registers for the relevant bits. pata_err returns true. right after the command was issued. I also checked after each register set - the status is always correct, just after the command register is set, the drive goes from busy to 0x59 (DRQ + ERR set). From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:39:31 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:39:31 -0500 Subject: CREEPYPASTA Message-ID: <56692C33.7090205@gmail.com> What is your favorite CREEPYPASTA? I read one tonight called exploration of room -B. . . What are your fav'z? I am not a fan of the ones about games or the lame ones like Jeff the killer, Slenderman, Five nights at Freddy's ecp for the one called " The one in Crystal Cove". I am a big fan of Natenator77 and Otis Jiry "Chilling Tales For Dark Nights"!!! For those of you who do not know what creepypasta's are google it ot check out creepypasta.com . . I think this will be a great thread! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 02:45:32 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:45:32 +0000 Subject: Panel Pics Message-ID: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> Calling All Panel Fans In my panel picture gallery I have the following: 8/e type A 8/e type B 8/e (galway) 8/e (maynard) 8/f (maynard) 8/f (galway) 8/m (maynard) 8/i (-----"-----) 8/l (-----"-----) 8/s (-----"-----) 11/20 11/35 11/40 11/45 11/50 11/70 Scans/Pictures of anything with a perspex/plexiglass or similar front panel not listed above would be most welcome If possible I would prefer an attachment as opposed to a link Thanks Rod From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 10 02:48:34 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:48:34 +0100 Subject: CREEPYPASTA In-Reply-To: <56692C33.7090205@gmail.com> References: <56692C33.7090205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151210084834.GA28130@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:39:31AM -0500, Mike wrote: > What is your favorite CREEPYPASTA? > > I read one tonight called exploration of room -B. . . > > What are your fav'z? I am not a fan of the ones about games or the lame > ones like Jeff the killer, Slenderman, Five nights at Freddy's ecp for > the one called " The one in Crystal Cove". > > I am a big fan of Natenator77 and Otis Jiry "Chilling Tales For Dark > Nights"!!! > For those of you who do not know what creepypasta's are google it ot > check out creepypasta.com . . > > > I think this will be a great thread! > Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two PDP-12s!! It still gives me the chills. /P From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:50:39 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:50:39 -0500 Subject: CREEPYPASTA In-Reply-To: <20151210084834.GA28130@Update.UU.SE> References: <56692C33.7090205@gmail.com> <20151210084834.GA28130@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56692ECF.3000503@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 03:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:39:31AM -0500, Mike wrote: >> What is your favorite CREEPYPASTA? >> >> I read one tonight called exploration of room -B. . . >> >> What are your fav'z? I am not a fan of the ones about games or the lame >> ones like Jeff the killer, Slenderman, Five nights at Freddy's ecp for >> the one called " The one in Crystal Cove". >> >> I am a big fan of Natenator77 and Otis Jiry "Chilling Tales For Dark >> Nights"!!! >> For those of you who do not know what creepypasta's are google it ot >> check out creepypasta.com . . >> >> >> I think this will be a great thread! >> > Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two > PDP-12s!! > > It still gives me the chills. > > /P LOL I take it your not a fan that's ok I am sure there are some on here! I think it's a great form of horror art! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 01:58:54 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:58:54 -0500 Subject: AppleWorks for the Apple II Message-ID: <566930BE.6070500@gmail.com> Does anyone here still use Apple Works for day to day use? I find it very useful it has a great word processor and a database / spreadsheet I use it to write Creepypastas in my Motorcycle shop late at night. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:29:47 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:29:47 -0500 Subject: CREEPYPASTA In-Reply-To: <56692ECF.3000503@gmail.com> References: <56692C33.7090205@gmail.com> <20151210084834.GA28130@Update.UU.SE> <56692ECF.3000503@gmail.com> Message-ID: Honestly, in the eighties playing Zork, When the thief looked like me, I got good and wigged out, powered off the C64 and went straight to bed, real scared. But that was text and I was a pre-teen. Or maybe I dreamt the whole thing. On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:50 AM, Mike wrote: > > > On 12/10/2015 03:48 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:39:31AM -0500, Mike wrote: > >> What is your favorite CREEPYPASTA? > >> > >> I read one tonight called exploration of room -B. . . > >> > >> What are your fav'z? I am not a fan of the ones about games or the lame > >> ones like Jeff the killer, Slenderman, Five nights at Freddy's ecp for > >> the one called " The one in Crystal Cove". > >> > >> I am a big fan of Natenator77 and Otis Jiry "Chilling Tales For Dark > >> Nights"!!! > >> For those of you who do not know what creepypasta's are google it ot > >> check out creepypasta.com . . > >> > >> > >> I think this will be a great thread! > >> > > Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two > > PDP-12s!! > > > > It still gives me the chills. > > > > /P > LOL I take it your not a fan that's ok I am sure there are some on here! > I think it's a great form of horror art! > From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:34:46 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:34:46 -0500 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> Is there a URL for your panel picture gallery, Rod? ----- From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 02:50:49 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 03:50:49 -0500 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56693CE9.4070902@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 04:34 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Is there a URL for your panel picture gallery, Rod? > > ----- > Yes that would be great to see! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 03:53:59 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:53:59 +0000 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> Hi Mike Er no but I ought to set something up I could put the drawings up as well. I did have a web site for the company I ran but I shut it all down on retirement. So lets see how rusty I am. We will need Static IP address Domain Name registration Dead end system Linux Distro Server - Apache? Do you know I think there was a version for VMS As an old computer guy I like to have my data where I can see it I'll let you know.. Rod On 10/12/2015 09:34, Paul Birkel wrote: > Is there a URL for your panel picture gallery, Rod? > > ----- > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:05:59 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:05:59 +0000 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 09:53, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Linux Distro Server - Apache? > > Do you know I think there was a version for VMS > As an old computer guy I like to have my data where I can see it > Compaq/HP CSWS is based on an old 1.x distro of Apache, I've got it running on an Alpha DS10 w/VMS 7.3. The only reason it's not my webserver is it's power requirements and noise. I don't think there was a version for VAX/VMS but if you've got VAX C and an IP stack you could maybe roll your own. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 04:25:28 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:25:28 +0000 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56695318.1080707@btinternet.com> Thanks Adrian I will check it out. Rod On 10/12/2015 10:05, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 10 December 2015 at 09:53, Rod Smallwood > wrote: > >> Linux Distro Server - Apache? >> >> Do you know I think there was a version for VMS >> As an old computer guy I like to have my data where I can see it >> > Compaq/HP CSWS is based on an old 1.x distro of Apache, I've got it running > on an Alpha DS10 w/VMS 7.3. The only reason it's not my webserver is it's > power requirements and noise. I don't think there was a version for VAX/VMS > but if you've got VAX C and an IP stack you could maybe roll your own. > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 04:37:31 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:37:31 +0000 Subject: New Special Project Message-ID: <566955EB.6010900@btinternet.com> Hi All I am working on a new special project. I can't reveal what it is yet. But I can tell you the bell is finished in polished brass with electromechanical striker and the whistle has its own air supply. Rod If you understand this and you are not out to grass (retired) like me you may want to consider it. From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:39:39 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 05:39:39 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <7F911CB1-1E42-4041-9432-BEB78FDD9972@sbcglobal.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> <7F911CB1-1E42-4041-9432-BEB78FDD9972@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <724AACEC-DB21-4357-9A4B-474977BC2C8F@gmail.com> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > > >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> on my phone it doesnt show the quoted text it hides it till i send or i >> would just delete the stuff out... >> >> and my computer it seems to hide the stuff >>> >>> > > The iPhone does show what you are replying to, and it's quite easy to get to the bottom to post. > > The signature, however, can only (annoyingly) be before the quoted message. > > Sent from my iPhone 4S... Did this actually bottom post? Joe From dave at 661.org Wed Dec 9 20:17:02 2015 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 18:17:02 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On December 9, 2015 1:58:00 PM PST, Jay West wrote: > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > J Hear! Hear! For you Android users, K9-Mail makes bottom-posting easy. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 10 05:12:52 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:12:52 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! Message-ID: <01PU40PN9S2E009SJN@beyondthepale.ie> > > This is a bit like the old toilet seat up/down argument... > > On Dec 9, 2015, at 3:58 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > > > J > > > > After reviewing the 61 posts from the list I received this morning, I can only conclude that Johnny Billquist had the right idea. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 10 05:34:04 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 03:34:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566920AD.2010408@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> <566920AD.2010408@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... >> also >> Bill Gates On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > And he is one of the smartest finatual men in the world he is smart. not smartest what is a "finatual"? He seems to be a bit competitive. Back when he was first a millionaire, he did some good work. We must all do whatever it takes to make him a millionaire. > and soon he will be your pres.... CRAZY hmmmmm. 1) somebody who is CRAZY hmmmmm should obviously not be permitted to be pres. 2) Somebody would have to be CRAZY hmmmmm to want to be pres. From radiotest at juno.com Thu Dec 10 05:36:25 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 06:36:25 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210063430.0400ce70@juno.com> At 07:03 PM 12/9/2015, Joseph Lang wrote: >Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? Top posting isn't bad if the poster edits his top posts so that only a line or two is quoted. If I see an entire message in a top post I junk that message unread. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 10 05:39:37 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 03:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56691DA5.9090507@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20151210024540.GA5916@brevard.conman.org> <8B69B810-44F2-44B1-8AD3-701B8E96C531@pski.net> <56691DA5.9090507@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>>> **** CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE ***This e-mail transmission, including any >>>> attachments, contains information that may be confidential or privileged. >>>> The information is intended for the use of the individual or entity named >>>> above. If you are not the intended recipient, be aware that any >>>> disclosure, copying, distribution or uses of the contents of this >>>> information is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, >>>> please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail. Please destroy all >>>> electronic and hard copies of the communication, including attachments. >>>> Have a blessed day!* >>> Um ... what, exactly, is the purpose of this text? . . . On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > It's a leagle thing. It is presumably a spoof, ridiculing legal disclaimers. The only part of it that is legally binding is "Have a blessed day!*" (which is probably a euphemism for something most obscene) -- g at xenosoft.com Disclaimer: I speak for nobody else, and I can't even _---_ | speak for me. All of my personalities and the spirits /[@ @]\ | that I channel deny all knowledge of my activities. oOO--(_)--OOo | In fact, they hate my guts. (except with garlic & butter) ``` ''' | For NSA or law enforcment officials monitoring the net: FOIA, drone, cia, tea-party, hacker, NSA, IRS, computer programming homeland security, DEA, CIA, Wikileaks, sex, drugs, and rocknroll. If sex, drugs, and rock and roll are not the answer, . . . then you are asking the wrong questions. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 10 05:48:50 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 06:48:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201512101148.GAA13735@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > On 12/09/2015 10:42 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> [...untrimmed quote...] > So just to be sure This is the correct way to post?? No. Bottom-posting with untrimmed quoting is only marginally better than top-posting with untrimmed quoting. The correct thing to do is to trim quotes for relevance and reply to each piece inline, as I'm doing here. > in my online gmail i dont get all the rest just the reply I will have > to look at the settings i guess. I once had occasion to use gmail at work (I know, I know), and I don't recall it being hard to get the whole message, including the quotes, to edit. Of course, gmail could have broken their interface since then. If they make it impossible to edit quotes for relevance, then they have no place in civilized email, like any other MUA with that property. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 06:04:41 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:04:41 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with the list of messages Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain Rod On 10/12/2015 02:17, David Griffith wrote: > On December 9, 2015 1:58:00 PM PST, Jay West wrote: >> Please make an effort not to top-post :| >> >> J > Hear! Hear! > > For you Android users, K9-Mail makes bottom-posting easy. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 10 06:28:53 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:28:53 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOP POSTING Message-ID: <01PU43M592UQ00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. > The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. > In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with > the list of messages > > Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. > I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain > The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's postings is about the best and most succinct I've seen. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 06:44:09 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:44:09 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <01PU43M592UQ00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PU43M592UQ00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56697399.5030608@btinternet.com> Er nope it just refers to android R On 10/12/2015 12:28, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. >> The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. >> In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with >> the list of messages >> >> Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. >> I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain >> > The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's postings is about > the best and most succinct I've seen. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From radiotest at juno.com Thu Dec 10 07:29:12 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:29:12 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> At 07:04 AM 12/10/2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: >I can't understand what the fuss is about. What the fuss is mainly about is people who are too lazy to edit their quotes. Whether they top post or bottom post, if they properly edit their quotes the results should be acceptable to readers. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 10 07:27:31 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:31 +0000 (WET) Subject: TOP POSTING Message-ID: <01PU44A3H7GI00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > Er nope it just refers to android > > R He didn't include a signature in that message. Try looking at an earlier one. Here's another explaination. When someone receives this message, where are they supposed to start reading? They have to rummage through to the middle to find where it started, read the question originally asked, read down to see my answer, jump to the top to read the request for further clarification, read further to see my reply to that and so on. This gets really tedious when trying to follow a discussion. Top posting may work ok for emails between individuals, assuming they can live with only reading the first few lines of each mail. On a mailing list, it's too much to assume that everyone will have archived all the mails that went back and forth on the particular topic and will be immediately familar with all the discussions that might be in progress at any one time. When someone receives a long mailing list posting starting with (for example): "When I tried that, I got smoke coming out of the power supply" there then follows a session of jumping up and down through the email trying to find exactly which piece of advice the poster was following when they got this result. To do this, they have to find the points in the email where to jump backwards and forwards. Sometimes there are clues such as included headers. Sometimes there aren't. Sometimes the headers have dates in US format or non-US format that looks like US format and times in various miscellaneous timezones making it really hard to tell which not very well defined section was posted before which other not very well defined section. Sometimes there are no dates or times. Then the list owner politely asks people to try to follow a particular procedure and the response ranges from "I won't!" to "I can't!" to "Why should I!" to "Look, I can be even more irritating if I really try harder!". It appears that the main concern for some posters is "How can I get my crucially important (to me) posting to the most recipients with the least effort on my part?" Would it not be nicer if we could all be more concerned with "How can I make my posting as useful and easy to follow as possible for most recipients?"? Maybe some people might prefer to be on a write-only mailing list? Regards, Peter Coghlan. On 10/12/2015 12:28, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. >> The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. >> In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with >> the list of messages >> >> Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. >> I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain >> > The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's postings is about > the best and most succinct I've seen. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 10 07:45:56 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:45:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: CREEPYPASTA Message-ID: <20151210134556.D303E18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two > PDP-12s!! > It still gives me the chills. I can top that. Someone told me they were going to start a thread about top-posting on a list supposedly about vintage computers. I'm still shaking. Noel From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 02:55:24 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 02:55:24 -0600 Subject: Castlevaina for the Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: <56692342.6060204@gmail.com> References: <56692342.6060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Mike, Thanks, but I don't know if I need the codes, they are probably posted online? In any case, I found the game in my archive, so I attached it for you.. It's in a zip file, containing one or two .D64 disk images. It's probably cracked, so you shouldn't need any kind of passwords, I'd think? I tried it, and it boots up on my emulator.. -Bill On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Mike wrote: > I have a mint copy with all the passwords if you need a copy of the > passwords let me know I am going to have to type them in because they > are printed on DARK brown paper with black text you cant scan it I tried > so let me know if any of ya need them... > > Also it surprisingly has pretty good graphics for the first version of > Castlevaina or I think it is... > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 03:26:25 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 04:26:25 -0500 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? Message-ID: Hi, My Micro's power supply blew and I wanted to be in a fullsize cab anyway. Can I bolt my Micro/PDP11 Q22 backplane into an 11/03 chassis easily? Anyone know about feasibility / gotchas before I start experimenting? thx jake From joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 04:22:11 2015 From: joe.lang.0000 at gmail.com (Joseph Lang) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 05:22:11 -0500 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D55A14-CBB2-49E6-A0C1-E7441D5263A4@gmail.com> It's simple to convert the h9270 q18 (11/03) to q22. Just wire the additional address lines. It took me about an hour to do mine. Don't put an 11/03 in it after conversion. The added lines are not addresses on the 03 CPU. Joe > On Dec 10, 2015, at 4:26 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > > Hi, > My Micro's power supply blew and I wanted to be in a fullsize cab anyway. > Can I bolt my Micro/PDP11 Q22 backplane into an 11/03 chassis easily? > Anyone know about feasibility / gotchas before I start experimenting? > > thx > jake From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 08:09:45 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:09:45 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <01PU44A3H7GI00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PU44A3H7GI00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <566987A9.1000704@btinternet.com> On 10/12/2015 13:27, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> Er nope it just refers to android >> >> R > He didn't include a signature in that message. Try looking at an earlier one. > > Here's another explaination. > > When someone receives this message, where are they supposed to start reading? > > They have to rummage through to the middle to find where it started, read > the question originally asked, read down to see my answer, jump to the top to > read the request for further clarification, read further to see my reply to > that and so on. This gets really tedious when trying to follow a discussion. > > Top posting may work ok for emails between individuals, assuming they can live > with only reading the first few lines of each mail. On a mailing list, it's > too much to assume that everyone will have archived all the mails that went > back and forth on the particular topic and will be immediately familar with > all the discussions that might be in progress at any one time. When someone > receives a long mailing list posting starting with (for example): > > "When I tried that, I got smoke coming out of the power supply" > > there then follows a session of jumping up and down through the email trying to > find exactly which piece of advice the poster was following when they got this > result. To do this, they have to find the points in the email where to jump > backwards and forwards. Sometimes there are clues such as included headers. > Sometimes there aren't. Sometimes the headers have dates in US format or non-US > format that looks like US format and times in various miscellaneous timezones > making it really hard to tell which not very well defined section was posted > before which other not very well defined section. Sometimes there are no dates > or times. > > Then the list owner politely asks people to try to follow a particular > procedure and the response ranges from "I won't!" to "I can't!" to "Why should > I!" to "Look, I can be even more irritating if I really try harder!". > > It appears that the main concern for some posters is "How can I get my crucially > important (to me) posting to the most recipients with the least effort on my > part?" Would it not be nicer if we could all be more concerned with "How can I > make my posting as useful and easy to follow as possible for most recipients?"? > > Maybe some people might prefer to be on a write-only mailing list? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > > On 10/12/2015 12:28, Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. >>> The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. >>> In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with >>> the list of messages >>> >>> Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. >>> I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain >>> >> The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's postings is about >> the best and most succinct I've seen. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. So I'll put it down here. Hang on a mo if you do that you have to read all the messages backwards. Scroll up from bottom read message down the page reading go back up through the message and the next one then down that one. I'd call that snakes and ladders. Messages are always read from top to bottom, So whats required for a bunch of messages together go to the last message. Find the end of the list. Back up to the top of the previous message if you can find it. Read the message and then add your comments after that. Is that really what's required. Oh well so be it. Rod From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 08:17:10 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:17:10 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> Message-ID: <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> On 10/12/2015 13:29, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 07:04 AM 12/10/2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> I can't understand what the fuss is about. > What the fuss is mainly about is people who are too lazy to edit their quotes. Whether they top post or bottom post, if they properly edit their quotes the results should be acceptable to readers. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > Look I'm bottom posting or posting at the bottom. So its now called Editing your quotes. My quotes are usually Shakespere, Churchill or JKF. I never use them here so I cant edit them (not that I would) Well thats two different answers. Next answer please!! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 08:36:50 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:36:50 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56698E02.9080006@btinternet.com> On 10/12/2015 14:17, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > On 10/12/2015 13:29, Dale H. Cook wrote: >> At 07:04 AM 12/10/2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> I can't understand what the fuss is about. >> What the fuss is mainly about is people who are too lazy to edit >> their quotes. Whether they top post or bottom post, if they properly >> edit their quotes the results should be acceptable to readers. >> >> Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA >> Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 >> http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html >> > Look I'm bottom posting or posting at the bottom. > > So its now called Editing your quotes. > > My quotes are usually Shakespere, Churchill or JKF. > I never use them here so I cant edit them (not that I would) > > Well thats two different answers. > > Next answer please!! > > > > I think Iv'e got it!! Bottom posting means you have to sit on the message for a couple of days. R From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 10 08:48:30 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:48:30 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <724AACEC-DB21-4357-9A4B-474977BC2C8F@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <3F8D1274-F45D-47DA-BCA0-BEFFB371764E@nf6x.net> <7F911CB1-1E42-4041-9432-BEB78FDD9972@sbcglobal.net> <724AACEC-DB21-4357-9A4B-474977BC2C8F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566990BE.9070400@sbcglobal.net> On 12/10/2015 05:39 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > > >> On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:16 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Dec 9, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>> on my phone it doesnt show the quoted text it hides it till i send or i >>> would just delete the stuff out... >>> >>> and my computer it seems to hide the stuff >>>> >>>> >> >> The iPhone does show what you are replying to, and it's quite easy to get to the bottom to post. >> >> The signature, however, can only (annoyingly) be before the quoted message. >> >> Sent from my iPhone 4S... > > Did this actually bottom post? > Yep. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 10 08:49:37 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:49:37 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56699101.1010304@sbcglobal.net> On 12/10/2015 07:04 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. > The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. > In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same with > the list of messages > > Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail systems. > I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain > > Rod THunderbird does what you tell it to. There is an option in Account Settings to change where the cursor goes in replies & such. > On 10/12/2015 02:17, David Griffith wrote: >> On December 9, 2015 1:58:00 PM PST, Jay West >> wrote: >>> Please make an effort not to top-post :| >>> >>> J >> Hear! Hear! >> >> For you Android users, K9-Mail makes bottom-posting easy. > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 10 08:51:00 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 06:51:00 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <20151210014318.GA4914@RawFedDogs.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <20151210014318.GA4914@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <04E96CBD-0DA2-49F5-A25E-A59948788222@aracnet.com> > On Dec 9, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 09, 2015 at 07:03:04PM -0500, Joseph Lang wrote: >> >> Anybody know how to bottom post on an iPhone? I've never been able to >> figure it out. > > I've never figured it out either. My iPhone is great for a lot of things. > E-Mail isn't one of them. I stick with a PC and Mutt for e-mail. Interesting, I'm writing this on my iPod, in fact to prove a point, I took the time to prove a point, and included the lame .sig at the end. It's called editing folks! It's easy! Zane Sent from my iPod From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 10 09:38:54 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:38:54 +0000 Subject: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? In-Reply-To: References: <56486335.2080003@ljw.me.uk> <564976B5.7090809@ljw.me.uk>, Message-ID: I'm not familiar with a XorOut? I suspect it is to correct for a different seed values at the tail end. Does the program let you run it backwards? As a 16 bit polynomial, it is practical to run it forward 2^16 bit times to get it back to the seed value. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Microtech Dart Sent: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 11:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: QIC Tape help with CRC - Dwight? Just a quick update here, I believe that I have finally cracked the code on the CRC polynomial/model for this enigmatic Kennedy 64XX QIC tape format. Please see http://microtechm1.blogspot.com/2015/09/kennedy-6450-tape-drive-data-format.html#CRC Here are the core findings: For both 4096 and 8192-byte data blocks: width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x0002 refin=false refout=false xorout=0xfffd check=0x2119 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 0002 -x fffd -c -f Block.bin --OR-- width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x8001 refin=false refout=false xorout=0x7ffe check=0x2119 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 8001 -x 7ffe -c -f Block.bin (For 4096-byte data blocks only?) width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0xbffe refin=false refout=false xorout=0x0000 check=0x26e7 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i bffe -c -f Block.bin (For 8192-byte data blocks only?) width=16 poly=0x8005 init=0x5ffc refin=false refout=false xorout=0x0000 check=0x62e7 name=(none) reveng -w 16 -p 8005 -i 5ffc -c -f Block.bin CRC_RevEng was a BIG help, once I got more comfortable using it. Has anyone here ever seen models like this for CRCs in any other media storage tech? Maybe CRCs on open reel tape (if they had any?), or CRCs on hard drives? My grasp on CRC math and formulas is still at the novice level, however. I am thrown by the fact that the derived model requires an XorOUT parameter value in order to work properly on both the 4096 and the 8192-byte blocks found on these tapes. My self-written program that decodes these tapes doesn't have the ability to input an XorOUT value, mostly because I don't really understand what it means. I read in the CRC_RevEng Users Guide: "-x XOROUT: A hexadecimal digit string specifying the value to be added to the final shift register value before output." I did find models with no XorOUT value required that work either for the 4096-byte blocks, and a different one for the 8192-byte blocks. I created a work-around in my program by selecting a different model based on the size of the block being analyzed. Does anyone here have any insight as to why these models will consistently work for one, but not the other, and vice-versa? Again, thanks everyone for the great knowledgeable input. Your shared knowledge has goten me to this point on these projects. -AJ http://MightyFrame.com http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 12:24 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Ah, I thought you were writing a specific program, but if you're > just documenting things then specifying the CRC polynomial and > the init value as all-ones should be sufficient. > > The corresponding init parameter of reveng is "-i ffff". > > On 15/11/15 23:52, Microtech Dart wrote: > >> Lawrence, Dwight & Chuck...thank you! >> >> The revelation that I can append 84CF to the 512-byte data block and the >> 4-byte block address, is golden, and this works! >> > The other thing to point out is that if you append the CRC to > your original block, the resulting CRC should be 0000. > > e.g. 84 CF FF FF gives 0000 > > This means there's no need to do a specific 'CRC check', but > after your data block you keep feeding the CRC bytes in and > then check that the result is 0000. > > >> It would have taken a lot longer for me to figure out on my own that this >> was a work-around, and at least one working interpretation of the >> confusing >> text I was quoting from the manuals. >> >> I don't grasp all of the rest of what you shared fully, but now I at least >> have an example of something that works to play with, and from there, I >> hope to get more comfortable with this procedure, and write some programs >> that do this checking to validate each block I read with my Universal QIC >> reader system. >> >> I've updated my web page about QIC-24 decoding CRC section to include this >> knowledge: >> >> >> http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html#CRC >> > When specifying a CRC it's always good to provide a short > example that can be used to validate an implementation - it > doesn't need to be a whole block, but just 10 or so bytes > together with the resulting CRC. > >> >> Thank you again! >> >> -AJ >> >> -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 > > -- Thanks, -AJ http://MicrotechM1.blogspot.com From ethan at 757.org Thu Dec 10 09:54:50 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 10:54:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So just to be sure This is the correct way to post?? from the bottom. in > my online gmail i dont get all the rest just the reply I will have to > look at the settings i guess. Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 10:15:16 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:15:16 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 10:54 AM, wrote: > So just to be sure This is the correct way to post?? from the bottom. in >> my online gmail i dont get all the rest just the reply I will have to >> look at the settings i guess. >> > > Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from > your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. > > > The "final version" of a thread can be found in the archives. This is a good way for an individual to check how their posts effected flow of a given thread. Good direct feedback as to whether you're doing it right. I admit have sometimes forgotten to set up my replies, the archive is a permanent record of my imperfections. lol. I use gmail exclusively for this list, but my messages come from many devices - VT100 / Mutt, web browsers, Android. As far as gmail archiving my email for profiling I would think my interests would be of little marketing value to them, they can have it. I don't use gmail for sensitive things. -- Bill From lproven at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 10:33:10 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:33:10 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 16:54, wrote: > Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from > your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? Also, [[Citation needed]] for paranoid ravings. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From radiotest at juno.com Thu Dec 10 10:33:19 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:33:19 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210113223.03e28910@juno.com> At 09:17 AM 12/10/2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: >So its now called Editing your quotes. The crucial matter is editing the quoted message. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From ethan at 757.org Thu Dec 10 10:47:12 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:47:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: > *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? > Also, [[Citation needed]] for paranoid ravings. http://www.brighthub.com/internet/google/articles/80100.aspx Just random googling, that says they delete deleted messages generally within 60 days but do leave a hole for offline backup systems having copies (which makes sense from CYA perspective.) Probably better to build profile data off of each email and store that anyways, less computation. Self hosted mail systems for the win. - Ethan From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 10 10:47:19 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:47:19 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210113223.03e28910@juno.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210113223.03e28910@juno.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 8:33 AM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 09:17 AM 12/10/2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >So its now called Editing your quotes. > > The crucial matter is editing the quoted message. > > Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA > Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 > http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html > > Ooh, another email formatting rant thread! It's been so long - I had wondered if this dead horse had finally decomposed and returned to the elements. Not so, it would seem.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 11:07:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:07:19 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com>, Message-ID: > All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you guys I have no desire to 'get with the times' -- this is classiccmp after all. If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and start typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, but that is not my problem! Like most English-speakers I read text from top to bottom. As a result it makes sense for the reply to come _after_ the original message. And how on earth do you reply to individual points if you top-post? Put the reply before the paragraph you are commenting on??? -tony] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 10 11:19:49 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:19:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from >> your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Liam Proven wrote: > *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? useful > Also, [[Citation needed]] for paranoid ravings. Let's indulge, for a moment, in some paranoid rantings, . . . IF Google were not so honorable and ethical, what kind of power COULD they eventually wield with such complete knowledge of people? But, they would never become like jEdgar (who we've been told only used his powers for good) Who has access to the data? If guvmint wants access, will Google charge them money? Do they contract with NSA?, or compete with? Is NSA scared of Google? Soon, they will provide encryption! Nobody but the user and Google will be able to decrypt. Watch for Google-Locker coming soon! How many infospheres (twice the size of three ordinary memory banks)have they filled? Are they contracting with the brain spawn? From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 11:29:07 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:29:07 +0100 Subject: Source for DEC DC005 bus drivers. Message-ID: I just recently had a RXV21 board that I inserted into the backplane and then completely hung a few bits on the bus. It was a DC005 bus transceiver chip that had failed. First it seemed impossible to find such a chip, but then I recognized that Signetics had put their own code own them as well, C2324N. Searching on Ebay gave this result: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281679682476 I bought some and they just arrived and worked perfectly. /Mattis From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 10 12:24:23 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:24:23 -0600 Subject: NO POLITICS! (was RE: TOP POSTING Message-ID: <002501d13377$ff1c13d0$fd543b70$@classiccmp.org> It was written by two people.... --------------------- >> I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... > > also > Michael Dell > Carly Fiorina > Mark Zuckerberg > Sarah Palin > Meg Whitman > Paris Hilton > Bill Gates > And he is one of the smartest finatual men in the world and soon he will be your pres.... CRAZY hmmmmm. ---------------------- Starting a political discussion on this list is a surefire way to get banned. Keep it somewhat on topic please. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 10 12:27:23 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:27:23 -0600 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <002601d13378$6a69b660$3f3d2320$@classiccmp.org> I'd be happy to host the site for you - gratis - on the classiccmp server. J From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 13:06:20 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:06:20 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? Message-ID: <074201d1337d$db99e6c0$92cdb440$@gmail.com> Alexandre, I have the SCSI pre-processor too, but not the precious software that goes with it. Do you happen to have it? I'll contact you offline. Marc > Alexandre Souza wrote: > A proper HP16500C or better (series 17000) is way cheap nowadays. > [...]I don't know if there is an IDE analyzer for it (I have it for SCSI) > but you can look for it. From radiotest at juno.com Thu Dec 10 13:21:06 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:21:06 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210082656.03f34e78@juno.com> <56698966.4040609@btinternet.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151210113223.03e28910@juno.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151210141532.03d64a20@juno.com> At 11:47 AM 12/10/2015, Ian S. King wrote: >Ooh, another email formatting rant thread! It is not the formatting that is the crux of the matter - it is the lack of editing. If someone can't be bothered to edit his message quotes I can't be bothered to read his messages. I have a low tolerance for those who ignore or who are ignorant of basic reflector netiquette. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Dec 10 13:29:43 2015 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:29:43 +0000 Subject: dBase IV manuals available Message-ID: One complete Ashton Tate set, including XT keyboard template. A couple of Borland dBaseIV (version 1 and 2) sets. Two sets still shrink wrapped. Make an offer plus postage or they're off to the recycle bin. Shipping from New Jersey, USA Kelly From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Dec 10 13:42:19 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:42:19 +0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM > On 10 December 2015 at 16:54, > wrote: >> Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from >> your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. > *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? Piker. My e-mail archives extend back to the 1970s, stored on 9-track mag tape (with slight interruptions for job changes--learned that lesson after a while). Oh, ;-) On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, since it's job-related. To reply, I "C-a C-x" and paste into an Emacs window to edit and respond to points made, then "C-x h C-c C-x"[1] to put the result into the clipboard and "C-v" it in the Outlook reply window. Simple. Quick. Gives me time to think about what I'm going to say. Rich [1] Personalized key binding: Otherwise, M-x clipboard-kill-region, which is much less convenient. :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 10 13:44:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:44:28 -0000 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015b01d13383$2e6db890$8b4929b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > Ritorto > Sent: 10 December 2015 09:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? > > Hi, > My Micro's power supply blew and I wanted to be in a fullsize cab anyway. > Can I bolt my Micro/PDP11 Q22 backplane into an 11/03 chassis easily? > Anyone know about feasibility / gotchas before I start experimenting? > > thx > jake Having spent many hours fixing my own H7864, and finally succeeding, I am interested to know what kind of failure you had. Filter caps often go on these, are easily replaceable and don't stop it working. The recent fault I am referring to was a failure of the main switching transistor on the primary side, leading to total deadness, but replacing two parts brought it back to life. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 10 13:44:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:44:28 -0000 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <015b01d13383$2e6db890$8b4929b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jacob > Ritorto > Sent: 10 December 2015 09:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? > > Hi, > My Micro's power supply blew and I wanted to be in a fullsize cab anyway. > Can I bolt my Micro/PDP11 Q22 backplane into an 11/03 chassis easily? > Anyone know about feasibility / gotchas before I start experimenting? > > thx > jake Having spent many hours fixing my own H7864, and finally succeeding, I am interested to know what kind of failure you had. Filter caps often go on these, are easily replaceable and don't stop it working. The recent fault I am referring to was a failure of the main switching transistor on the primary side, leading to total deadness, but replacing two parts brought it back to life. Regards Rob From jrr at flippers.com Thu Dec 10 13:50:42 2015 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:50:42 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566920AD.2010408@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <88DCE06E82EE48F0B66F3460A4342D51@310e2> <566920AD.2010408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5669D792.1070209@flippers.com> On 12/09/2015 10:50 PM, Mike wrote: > > On 12/09/2015 11:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 9 Dec 2015, Mike Stein wrote: >>> I hear that Donald Trump top-posts... >> also >> Michael Dell >> Carly Fiorina >> Mark Zuckerberg >> Sarah Palin >> Meg Whitman >> Paris Hilton >> Bill Gates >> > And he is one of the smartest finatual men in the world and soon he will > be your pres.... CRAZY hmmmmm. > And I'm be looking to colonize on the Moon if he becomes US president. Sigh. this is WAY off topic! Mike misspeled smartest - shuld bee smartist. John ;-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 10 13:53:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:53:45 -0800 Subject: mail hosting In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5669D849.7050502@bitsavers.org> On 12/10/15 8:47 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Self hosted mail systems for the win. > Sadly, I'm seeing more and more organizations abandoning hosting their own mail servers (and mailing lists) because it has become too much of a PITA to keep spam / being blacklisted under control. CHM is in the process of shutting down all of their mailing lists because the IT people don't want to support them any more. The radio station I volunteer for (KFJC) trying to decide if it's worth doing it themselves or just having Google do it :-( So much for Mailman list archives :-( From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 10 13:58:43 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:58:43 +0000 Subject: Panel Pics In-Reply-To: <002601d13378$6a69b660$3f3d2320$@classiccmp.org> References: <56693BAC.90807@btinternet.com> <02f801d1332e$02aa9160$07ffb420$@gmail.com> <56694BB7.6080702@btinternet.com> <002601d13378$6a69b660$3f3d2320$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5669D973.5050905@btinternet.com> On 10/12/2015 18:27, Jay West wrote: > I'd be happy to host the site for you - gratis - on the classiccmp server. > > J > > Oh! Thats nice of you Jay. I had not considered doing it that way. I'd got as far as finding out you can get a tracker to keep a domain name linked to whatever your current external IP is. So what had you in mind? Rod From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 14:05:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:05:39 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> On 12/10/2015 12:18 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > for LBA: > > while ( pata_bsy() ) {} > > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_COUNT_REGISTER, 1 ); > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_NUMBER_REGISTER, 0 ); > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_LOW_REGISTER, 0 ); > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_HIGH_REGISTER, 0 ); > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_DEVICE_HEAD_REGISTER, 0xa0 ); > > write_io_register ( PATA_W_COMMAND_REGISTER, 0x21 ); > > while ( pata_bsy() ) {} if ( pata_err() ) { return; } while ( > !pata_drq() ) {} If you're using LBA, should this be the setting: write_io_register ( PATA_RW_DEVICE_HEAD_REGISTER, 0xe0 ); Bit 6 indicates LBA. Also, note that if you're using drives larger than about 120GB, the PATA-6 protocol comes into effect with 48-bit sector addresses. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Dec 10 14:10:58 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:10:58 -0500 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? Message-ID: <4eb64b.132cd348.439b3651@aol.com> wasn't there a diff. in the buss for the 11/73 proc card? and the 11/03 card? something slight as my foggy brain.... Ed# From simski at dds.nl Thu Dec 10 13:39:26 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:39:26 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5669D4EE.9000701@dds.nl> sudo mv thread /dev/null On 09-12-15 22:58, Jay West wrote: > Please make an effort not to top-post :| > > J > > > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 14:14:35 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:14:35 -0800 Subject: HP (Agilent) SCSI BUS Preprocessor Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > Alexandre, > I have the SCSI pre-processor too, but not the precious software that goes > with it. Do you happen to have it? I'll contact you offline. > Marc Which one? I have never found the config and IA software for the 10343B version which attaches to a 10269C General Purpose Probe Interface. The standalone E2423A version is the same thing as the FuturePlus FS2230. https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/opman/fsscsia.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/datasheets/fsscsi.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/syssw/scsi1-2.zip From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Dec 10 14:21:13 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:21:13 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2015 12:18 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> for LBA: >> >> while ( pata_bsy() ) {} >> >> write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_COUNT_REGISTER, 1 ); >> write_io_register ( PATA_RW_SECTOR_NUMBER_REGISTER, 0 ); >> write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_LOW_REGISTER, 0 ); >> write_io_register ( PATA_RW_CYLINDER_HIGH_REGISTER, 0 ); >> write_io_register ( PATA_RW_DEVICE_HEAD_REGISTER, 0xa0 ); >> >> write_io_register ( PATA_W_COMMAND_REGISTER, 0x21 ); >> >> while ( pata_bsy() ) {} if > ( pata_err() ) { return; } while ( >> !pata_drq() ) {} > > If you're using LBA, should this be the setting: > > write_io_register ( PATA_RW_DEVICE_HEAD_REGISTER, 0xe0 ); > > Bit 6 indicates LBA. right - This is what I do in the code - I was writing "from memory". > Also, note that if you're using drives larger than about 120GB, the > PATA-6 protocol comes into effect with 48-bit sector addresses. OK - good to know. I only tested ranges 260MB - 80GB. Guess I'll just not support it then?! How is it different regarding setting the registers? But anyway... The host computer only supports 32bit adressing of 512Byte Blocks. And I guess I could also use 500GB IDE disks when using only lets say some hundrets of MB (plenty enough - the original harddisk in the system had about 54MB) Oliver From dick at tonkaland.com Thu Dec 10 14:30:50 2015 From: dick at tonkaland.com (dick at tonkaland.com) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:30:50 -0600 Subject: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email). In-Reply-To: <004201d132b5$4fd4cab0$ef7e6010$@net> References: <013701d12df5$27c8bf00$775a3d00$@net> <5661B293.5020406@bitsavers.org> <004201d132b5$4fd4cab0$ef7e6010$@net> Message-ID: <45f3cec74bd3b32a1458b4f15e7a7318.squirrel@tonkaland.com> What are you willing to pay?? > I am still looking for some help on this if anyone has ideas. It looks > like > the read/write/format board is bad. Anyone have a spare they can part with > or are am I looking at a super effective door stop here? > > -Ali > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 14:57:47 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:57:47 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> On 12/10/2015 12:21 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > right - This is what I do in the code - I was writing "from memory". Just going by what you write...BTW, what are you using as a reference? Seagate still has a lot of interesting stuff on their ftp. > OK - good to know. I only tested ranges 260MB - 80GB. Guess I'll > just not support it then?! How is it different regarding setting the > registers? But anyway... The host computer only supports 32bit > adressing of 512Byte Blocks. And I guess I could also use 500GB IDE > disks when using only lets say some hundrets of MB (plenty enough - > the original harddisk in the system had about 54MB) PATA-6 is sort of a kludge supported by double-writing (MSB first) to each of the address registers without any intervening access to any other register. Intel employs this sort of thing on their older 8-bit peripheral support chips. ABRT set in the error register basically indicates that the drive isn't ready or that there's something wrong with the command. You may want to insert some debug code that displays exactly what's being written to the drive registers. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Dec 10 15:19:00 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:19:00 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151210221900.Horde.v-z7g7OYs1Faxk-xgG1298x@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ABRT set in the error register basically indicates that the drive > isn't ready or that there's something wrong with the command. You > may want to insert some debug code that displays exactly what's > being written to the drive registers. Did that - echoed it out on serial line. But think about it - under what circumstances I could write wrong data to the cyl/sec/head registers that ANY other drive interprets correctly (I'm booting an OS from other harddisks successfully)? If I would write wrong data into those setup-registers I would also get errors from other devices, right? My thinking was, that the drive does not interpret the data correctly. Things like: 1 Low-High-Switch not "clear" enough to the drive to accept the data 2 Low/High-Indicating voltage near the limits and the drive has slightly broken stuff so if the voltage is neart the limit, it indicates "forbidden voltage" 3 I'm to fast in asserting a signal and the disk can't pick it up that fast. 2 -> i would have other errors as well e.g. sending identify command also uses the same lines... 3 -> i already tried delays everywhere without success.... From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Dec 10 15:20:00 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:20:00 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566987A9.1000704@btinternet.com> References: <01PU44A3H7GI00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <566987A9.1000704@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <20151210212000.GA29411@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 02:09:45PM +0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I'll put it down here. Thank you!! > Hang on a mo if you do that you have to read all the messages backwards. No, you don't. If the text from the message one is replying to is properly trimmed, leaving just enough context for the reply to make sense it's very easy to follow. There's no reading backwards or jumping around required. Combine that with a mail client that can properly thread messages and even high volume mailing lists are easy to follow. Well, aside from posters who break threads when they reply. I think that mainly happens when some folks reply to digest e-mails instead of replying to the original message. On high volume lists I usually ignore such replies, unless it's a really interesting topic. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Dec 10 15:28:05 2015 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:28:05 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56699101.1010304@sbcglobal.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <56699101.1010304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20151210212804.GB29411@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 09:49:37AM -0500, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > THunderbird does what you tell it to. There is an option in Account > Settings to change where the cursor goes in replies & such. Even for those who haven't changed that setting, most if not all PC keyboards have arrow keys on them that can be used to move the cursor where it needs to be. I use Mutt for e-mail and vim as my editor. When replying to an e-mail my cursor always starts out at the top . If it was positioned at the bottom of the e-mail I was replying to I'd have to move back up to the top to properly trim the message I was replying to, so having the cursor start out at the top is actually easier anyway. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Dec 10 15:37:24 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:37:24 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Answering your other notes now - sorry for skipping them in my earlier mail ;) Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2015 12:21 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> right - This is what I do in the code - I was writing "from memory". > > Just going by what you write...BTW, what are you using as a reference? I've used ftp://ftp.seagate.com/acrobat/reference/111-1c.pdf a lot. Also other IDE implementations on ATMegas. > PATA-6 is sort of a kludge supported by double-writing (MSB first) > to each of the address registers without any intervening access to > any other register. Intel employs this sort of thing on their older > 8-bit peripheral support chips. OK - but those drives should also work on non-PATA-6 systems but with reduced capacity - right? Oliver From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 15:51:01 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:51:01 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <20151210212804.GB29411@RawFedDogs.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <56696A59.8040400@btinternet.com> <56699101.1010304@sbcglobal.net> <20151210212804.GB29411@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: > Of course, gmail could have broken their interface since then. If they make it impossible to edit quotes for relevance, then they have no place in civilized email, like any other MUA with that property. Not broken, on web or android (I can't speak for iPhone). On web, click the a little 3 dot icon and the text opens to edit. For this thread, however, the most important feature is 'mute'. I'll be using that next. :-) From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:02:36 2015 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:02:36 -0500 Subject: mail hosting In-Reply-To: <5669D849.7050502@bitsavers.org> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <5669D849.7050502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/10/15 8:47 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > Self hosted mail systems for the win. >> >> > Sadly, I'm seeing more and more organizations abandoning hosting their own > mail > servers (and mailing lists) because it has become too much of a PITA to > keep spam / being blacklisted > under control. > It is not just spam they have to worry about. Corporations have concerns related to security, backup, availability, retention for litigation, automatic deletion, transfer of ownership... Too few IT departments actually do this well. > > CHM is in the process of shutting down all of their mailing lists because > the IT people > don't want to support them any more. The radio station I volunteer for > (KFJC) trying to > decide if it's worth doing it themselves or just having Google do it :-( > > So much for Mailman list archives :-( > Google groups will archive forever. I believe you can migrate old messages into a new group, but it might require some scripting to extract and load. https://developers.google.com/admin-sdk/groups-migration/v1/guides/manage-email-migrations Personally, I used to mail, mailing list, DNS and web from servers in my home. Every time I went on a trip, something would break and I had to talk a 10 year old through rebooting the rack in the scary dark corner of the basement. I gave it up and went Google for my sanity. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Dec 10 15:35:29 2015 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:35:29 +0000 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <5669D4EE.9000701@dds.nl> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <5669D4EE.9000701@dds.nl> Message-ID: I'm tempted to reply using ALLIN1 email just to give you all an idea how really irritating some email clients can be! It was all the rage in the 80's however don't you know. Peace. Mark. On 10 Dec 2015 19:39, "simon" wrote: > sudo mv thread /dev/null > > On 09-12-15 22:58, Jay West wrote: > >> Please make an effort not to top-post :| >> >> J >> >> >> >> > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 15:46:29 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:46:29 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <5669D4EE.9000701@dds.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'm tempted to reply using ALLIN1 email just to give you all an idea how > really irritating some email clients can be! So glad I never had to use it. We had VMS MAIL and we liked it ! > It was all the rage in the 80's however don't you know. Rage is a good word for it. I don't recall any kind words about ALLIN1 30 years ago. -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 10 16:30:14 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:30:14 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? Message-ID: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a 6R load across the 5V supply. To my inexperienced mind, that seems a bit low. Should I expect such a value, or should I be dismantling the box to investigate possible shorts or failed components on the backplane? Additionally, the 12V side seems to be charging a capacitor as the resistance slowly climbs to about 130K. Is that reasonable? Again, nothing but the backplane. The 3.3 and -12V show very high resistance at all times. Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 16:32:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:32:14 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <5669FD6E.50805@sydex.com> On 12/10/2015 01:37 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > OK - but those drives should also work on non-PATA-6 systems but > with reduced capacity - right? As I recall (it's been at least a decade and a half), that's true--you just don't get the full drive. How are you handling 16-bit data port accesses--or is this not an 8 bit ATMega? Oh, the Seagate reference you furnished should work fine. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 16:43:58 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:43:58 -0600 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210221900.Horde.v-z7g7OYs1Faxk-xgG1298x@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210221900.Horde.v-z7g7OYs1Faxk-xgG1298x@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566A002E.2090209@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 03:19 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > 3 -> i already tried delays everywhere without success.... I think you mentioned that you tried an old '486 machine and the drive was OK there - how hard is it to compile your code for x86 and essentially try testing your exact same code on the PC? It might help point the finger at either the software, or at it perhaps being an electronic issue. cheers Jules From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 10 16:37:22 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:37:22 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:30:14 +0000" <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PU4PDZX0ZA00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then > immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have > measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting > probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is > the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a > resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it > gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a > 6R load across the 5V supply. > > > > To my inexperienced mind, that seems a bit low. Should I expect such a > value, or should I be dismantling the box to investigate possible shorts or > failed components on the backplane? > > Your meter used on a resistance range will not give you a good idea of the load presented to the power supply. Most of the load is semiconductors which will not behave normally as they will not get enough voltage from the meter. The one case where it may be helpful is if you measure a dead short or very close to it, indicating something like a shorted decoupling capacitor or maybe a sliver of solder or other conductive object bridging some contacts somewhere. 6R is not low enough to indicate this. It will cause a bit under 1A to flow from the power supply. 1A is likely much less than the machine normally draws on the +5V supply. I would suggest disconnecting the power supply completely from the machine and putting a dummy load such as a 6V headlamp bulb or bulbs on it instead. If the PSU works normally on the dummy load, reconnect the machine and look for some component getting hot. If the PSU continues to trip when on a dummy load, try looking for shorted rectifiers and/or smoothing capacitors on the output side of the PSU. If the output voltage is trying to climb too high, maybe a crowbar trip is operating? (As Tony always says, don't disable the crowbar to try to find the problem!) > > Additionally, the 12V side seems to be charging a capacitor as the > resistance slowly climbs to about 130K. Is that reasonable? Again, nothing > but the backplane. > It seems reasonable but again, your meter on a resistance range is not going to tell you much here due to the semiconductor load. > > The 3.3 and -12V show very high resistance at all times. > Ditto. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 10 17:09:54 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:09:54 -0000 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017001d1339f$e16d7a40$a4486ec0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin > davison > Sent: 10 December 2015 02:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800 > > I got the power cord for the microvax 3800 in the mail today. I checked the > fans as someone suggested, they Spin nice and smooth. I Iooked over > everything, nothing seems out of place. I powered the machine on. Very > quiet. I expected it to be much louder. > > I turned the machine on and nothing exploded. > The KA660 cpu board has that little red lcd display ion it. A F is displayed. Not > sure if that is normal or not. I need a console cable. I have a vt100 that works > over here. What is the cable called, is it something i could buy, or is it > something that is easy enough to make? > > --Devin > The type of cable you need is called DECconnect. Hoff has lots of good info: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/467 Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Dec 10 17:09:54 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:09:54 -0000 Subject: Purchased a Microvax 3800 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017001d1339f$e16d7a40$a4486ec0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of devin > davison > Sent: 10 December 2015 02:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800 > > I got the power cord for the microvax 3800 in the mail today. I checked the > fans as someone suggested, they Spin nice and smooth. I Iooked over > everything, nothing seems out of place. I powered the machine on. Very > quiet. I expected it to be much louder. > > I turned the machine on and nothing exploded. > The KA660 cpu board has that little red lcd display ion it. A F is displayed. Not > sure if that is normal or not. I need a console cable. I have a vt100 that works > over here. What is the cable called, is it something i could buy, or is it > something that is easy enough to make? > > --Devin > The type of cable you need is called DECconnect. Hoff has lots of good info: http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/467 Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 10 17:21:05 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:21:05 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> I found the section "400 nsec delays" an interesting read, particularly the bit about reading the status register five times. http://wiki.osdev.org/ATA_PIO_Mode --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:36:55 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:36:55 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then > immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have > measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting > probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is > the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a > resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it > gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a > 6R load across the 5V supply. > > Additionally, the 12V side seems to be charging a capacitor as the > resistance slowly climbs to about 130K. Is that reasonable? Again, nothing > but the backplane. In the VAX 4000-200 in a BA430 chassis the M9715 board contains two +5.3V supplies based on LT-1086 regulators and powered from the +12V supply to provide two separate DSSI and SCSI bus termination voltages. Each supply has a 100uF caps across the regulator inputs and outputs. In addition the M9715 board contains a DS8641 bus transceiver powered from the +5V supply. I'm not sure exactly what that does. I believe it is monitoring the SCSI bus termination voltage and driving a bus signal back to the H7874 supply, possibly to shut down the supply if too much current on the SCSI bus termination supply causes it to drop out. I haven't pulled a BA440 chassis apart enough to take a close look at the equivalent backplane circuitry there. In one photo I took a while ago I can see two TO-220 packages and at least a couple of caps in the middle of the storage backplane. Possibly the BA440 backplane contains the same DSSI and SCSI bus termination supplies and monitoring circuitry that is contained on the M9715 module in the BA430 chassis. So with all boards, drives, and fans removed from a BA440 chassis there will still be some load on the +5V and +12V lines. From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 18:13:44 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:13:44 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Mike wrote: > > > The only thing I?ve done in ages that?s even remotely Classic Computer > related is to start working on learning how to program my Atari 2600. > > > > Zane > > > > > That sounds interesting How is that even done? I know there was a Atari > cart they came out with is that what your talking about? > These days it's all done on an emulator.. =) But yes, there are methods (even from the classic era) to load arbitrary code into the 2600 using a proprietary cartridge and a cassette tape machine. In essence, the special cart has a small bootstrap ROM that loads the software from the cassette into an internal (to the cart) RAM space which is then banked in as if it were a real 2600 cart ROM. Of course, the software is still limited to the hardware resources of the 2600.. the cart just emulates a plug-in ROM. So did this post properly? If not, I don't know how else to do it! From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 19:20:05 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 19:20:05 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > But yes, there are methods (even from the classic era) to load arbitrary > code into the 2600 using a proprietary cartridge and a cassette tape > machine. In essence, the special cart has a small bootstrap ROM that loads > the software from the cassette into an internal (to the cart) RAM space > which is then banked in as if it were a real 2600 cart ROM. > > Of course, the software is still limited to the hardware resources of the > 2600.. the cart just emulates a plug-in ROM. > > So did this post properly? If not, I don't know how else to do it! Yep! As for 2600 cassette schemes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starpath_Supercharger was the one I'm aware of. From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Dec 10 19:48:20 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 01:48:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then > immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have > measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting > probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is > the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a > resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it > gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a > 6R load across the 5V supply. No leaking ChemiCon SXF-series capacitors inside? They seem to suffer from some kind of design or manufacturing defect and consequently the electrolyte gets through the seal eventually even in parts never used. A number of DEC PSUs have these capacitors, including the H7874 PSU which BA430/BA440 VAX 4000 cabinets use. Gravity helps this failure to happen apparently as I haven't seen this kind of failure in a number of PSUs, like the H7821 or H7819, which were kept in their proper position throughout their life and where the affected capacitors are mounted leads up. The design of the H7874 PSU puts the capacitors in a horizontal position though when the unit is in its proper position. You may want to inspect your PSU internally to see if there are any signs of failure around SXF capacitors; these have a brown sleeve. Initial disassembly of the PSU is easy, you just need to unfasten a bunch of screws and undo three internal connectors. There are 5 330?F/25V parts and 1 1000?F/25V part of this kind total in the H7874, scattered across its PCBs. All the 330?F parts were failed in a PSU I have recently obtained, however replacing all SXF capacitors is I'm told advisable even if there is no sign of failure as one is inevitable sooner or later. While at it replacing a pair of ChemiCon SXE capacitors these PSUs have is also a good idea I'm told as they might be prone to the same failure, although I haven't seen one to happen myself. These are 100?F/35V, in the same shade of brown the SXF parts are. Unfortunately replacing the parts is not easy as heatsinks block access to the soldering pads and you need to desolder main rectifiers first to gain access. You need to clean any electrolyte spills too as they will cause corrosion and shorts. I observed similar symptoms with the failed PSU as you do: it started up briefly, enough for diagnostic output to start coming from the system through the console port, and then within a couple of seconds the PSU shut down. Maciej From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 10 21:15:07 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:15:07 -0600 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566A3FBB.4060604@pico-systems.com> On 12/10/2015 04:30 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then > immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have > measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting > probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is > the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a > resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it > gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a > 6R load across the 5V supply. > > > > Most likely there is a failed capacitor somewhere. Look over the boards for small Tantalum caps. They may not show any outward signs of failure. Finding the bad cap on a board with dozens of them in parallel is a nightmare! You should be able to safely power the machine with only a couple boards at a time to find which one is bad. And, of course, it could be the power supply itself! Jon From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 10 22:57:40 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:57:40 -0800 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0A161993-4913-45F2-9C6E-AAA47FFCD1F0@aracnet.com> > On Dec 10, 2015, at 4:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Mike wrote: > >> >>> The only thing I?ve done in ages that?s even remotely Classic Computer >> related is to start working on learning how to program my Atari 2600. >>> >>> Zane >>> >>> >> That sounds interesting How is that even done? I know there was a Atari >> cart they came out with is that what your talking about? >> > > These days it's all done on an emulator.. =) > > But yes, there are methods (even from the classic era) to load arbitrary > code into the 2600 using a proprietary cartridge and a cassette tape > machine. In essence, the special cart has a small bootstrap ROM that loads > the software from the cassette into an internal (to the cart) RAM space > which is then banked in as if it were a real 2600 cart ROM. > > Of course, the software is still limited to the hardware resources of the > 2600.. the cart just emulates a plug-in ROM. > > So did this post properly? If not, I don't know how else to do it! I?ve done embarrassingly little so far. The equivalent of ?Hello, World?. I have a development environment setup on my Mac Pro, and I have a cart that lets me copy my ROM images to an SD card and plug them into my Atari 2600 for testing on real hardware. My primary challenge is finding time to learn to program it. Then again, I have some Photography projects that are a higher priority that have the exact same problem. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 10 23:09:54 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:09:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <0A161993-4913-45F2-9C6E-AAA47FFCD1F0@aracnet.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> <0A161993-4913-45F2-9C6E-AAA47FFCD1F0@aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Zane Healy wrote: > I?ve done embarrassingly little so far. The equivalent of ?Hello, > World?. Isn't that the heart of it? Once you've got that, then you just need to add input, output, arithmetic, maybe some graphics primitives, etc. for any program. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 22:10:58 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:10:58 -0500 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: <50D55A14-CBB2-49E6-A0C1-E7441D5263A4@gmail.com> References: <50D55A14-CBB2-49E6-A0C1-E7441D5263A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 5:22 AM, Joseph Lang wrote: > It's simple to convert the h9270 q18 (11/03) to q22. Just wire the > additional address lines. It took me about an hour to do mine. > Don't put an 11/03 in it after conversion. The added lines are not > addresses on the 03 CPU. > Joe, I saw some pics about this a few weeks ago. I'd tried it twenty years ago, but didn't succeed - will have to find that backplane that I'd started to modify and try again. Would you happen to have notes or references about how to do it? From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 22:19:21 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:19:21 -0500 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: <015b01d13383$2e6db890$8b4929b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <015b01d13383$2e6db890$8b4929b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Having spent many hours fixing my own H7864, and finally succeeding, I am > interested to know what kind of failure you had. Filter caps often go on > these, are easily replaceable and don't stop it working. The recent fault I > am referring to was a failure of the main switching transistor on the > primary side, leading to total deadness, but replacing two parts brought it > back to life. > Rob, Yeah, I'd actually really like to save this Micro 11's power supply but I'm so bad at electronics that I feel hopeless trying. It'd be really good, though, because I could then just neatly slide the micro into the big cab when I feel like having it connected to all the other stuff, or keep it in its little deskside cabinet for typical day-to-day stuff. It has to stay very neat and presentable because these machines are actually part of the decor of our den (and with my better half's enthusiastic approval, which I realise is quite amazing of itself and don't want to blow)! Did you keep notes on how you ascertained what to replace? Or can you summarize in a step by step way that an amateur would be able to follow? The whole of my electronics tooling consists of some soldering stuff and a multimeter. tia! jake From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 11 00:47:24 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 06:47:24 -0000 Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? In-Reply-To: References: <015b01d13383$2e6db890$8b4929b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <017a01d133df$cb3b26b0$61b17410$@ntlworld.com> > Rob, > Yeah, I'd actually really like to save this Micro 11's power supply but I'm so > bad at electronics that I feel hopeless trying. I was the same (and still am), but I have slowly learned more and more, and acquired a few more pieces of test equipment. > It'd be really good, though, > because I could then just neatly slide the micro into the big cab when I feel > like having it connected to all the other stuff, or keep it in its little deskside > cabinet for typical day-to-day stuff. It has to stay very neat and presentable > because these machines are actually part of the decor of our den (and with > my better half's enthusiastic approval, which I realise is quite amazing of itself > and don't want to blow)! > > Did you keep notes on how you ascertained what to replace? Or can you > summarize in a step by step way that an amateur would be able to follow? > The whole of my electronics tooling consists of some soldering stuff and a > multimeter. > This one is very fresh in my mind, so I have no problem describing the failure I had, but of course that does not mean you had the same failure. First question is, what were the symptoms of the failure? Was there a smoke and a bad smell and the machine actually continued to run, or did it just stop working, or something else? If you got the smoke and the smell, then it could just be the filter capacitors. You will need to open up the PSU in any case. Have a look near the point where the power cord is attached, there are some relatively large yellow-ish capacitors, if they are all cracked then it is the filter capacitors and you can just replace them. If it isn't that then you should inspect the components for physical damage, looking for leaking or bulging electrolytic capacitors, but just replacing any damaged ones may not fix it, as there could still be other damage, depending on what failed. The failure I had was a loud pop, the machine stopped, and there was no visible physical damage. This was a failure on the half with all the transformers and the actual output connectors. It was the large switching transistor near to the transformer marked High Voltage, located on the part of the board furthest from the output connectors. This transistor had failed short (easy test with a multimeter), and it has also damaged a resistor (it measured open circuit), located between the two large capacitors, and with a black covering. NB: I am not an electronics engineer, so treat all the above with caution. Remember, there can be lethal voltages even after the PSU has been disconnected. Check the voltage across the two large capacitors on the half of the PSU that has the mains connector before doing anything else. Regards Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 11 01:42:01 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:42:01 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then > immediately shutting down. I suspect a possible short somewhere. I have > measured the resistance of the load presented to the PSU by connecting > probes to the backplane sockets used to power the machine. The odd one is > the 5V load. With all the boards in and drives inserted I measure a > resistance of about 4R. As I pulled out boards, drives and fans, it > gradually crept up to 6R. So with nothing connected to the backplane I get a > 6R load across the 5V supply. > > > > To my inexperienced mind, that seems a bit low. Should I expect such a > value, or should I be dismantling the box to investigate possible shorts or > failed components on the backplane? > > > > Additionally, the 12V side seems to be charging a capacitor as the > resistance slowly climbs to about 130K. Is that reasonable? Again, nothing > but the backplane. > > > > The 3.3 and -12V show very high resistance at all times. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob I have an 4000/300 which had PSU Problems too (don't know for now if this uses the same PSU). When I got the machine the PSU powered up only sometimes after switching on and when it was running it shut off itself after some time. I'm strongly suggest to change all the Electrolytics in the PSU you can reach, all the brown Nichicons where dry an dead. One bigger cap (100i0?)on a PCB lost electrolyte and pissed it all over the PCB. There is a big rectangular Cap in that PSU that I've left there since I don't have a usable Replacement and the primary caps where still good so far. The PSU itself is a really bad design from sight of repair, you can't properly replace the caps on the switcher PCB since you could'nt dismount the heat spreader so I suggest that you pull the Caps from above and solder new one from above as I finally did. Now after some use of the machine the PSU has stabilized somehow, the machine runs flawlessly. Another thing is that small PCB on the DSSI storage Backplane, the Caps there where dead too. I thing it is the termination Power regulator and in my case the bad caps "simulated" a bad disk, I could'nt initialize this disk properly before I've changed the Caps there too.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 01:44:53 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:44:53 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <5669FD6E.50805@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669FD6E.50805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151211084453.Horde.FgaG85bUqyvR-0rivT0-UCR@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/10/2015 01:37 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> OK - but those drives should also work on non-PATA-6 systems but >> with reduced capacity - right? > > As I recall (it's been at least a decade and a half), that's > true--you just don't get the full drive. More than a couple of 100 MB would not make any sense at all as there is just not enough data to fill up the drive with on that host ;) > How are you handling 16-bit data port accesses--or is this not an 8 > bit ATMega? normaly I would read the lower and the higher 8 bits from 2 different ports one after each other. But as My ports are already "used up" for other stuff, I have latches storing the higher part of th 16Bits. This should of course not cause problems in the early stage of setting the drive registers and issuing the command as this only happens in the lower 8 bits. http://www.pofo.de/P8000/notes/plaene/eigene/P8000_WDC_Emulator/P8000_WDC_Emulator_v1.2_Plan.pdf From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 05:45:24 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:45:24 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Chuck, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I found the section "400 nsec delays" an interesting read, > particularly the bit about reading the status register five times. > > http://wiki.osdev.org/ATA_PIO_Mode > > --Chuck You are completely right, but the drive is selected always as this is a "one drive only" implementation. The same drive-selection-magic would otherwise also apply to the "Read Sector Buffer" command which works without any error. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Dec 11 06:34:37 2015 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:34:37 +0000 Subject: dBase IV manuals available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 19:29, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > One complete Ashton Tate set, including XT keyboard template. > > A couple of Borland dBaseIV (version 1 and 2) sets. Two sets still shrink > wrapped. > > Make an offer plus postage or they're off to the recycle bin. Shipping > from New Jersey, USA > > Kelly > > KKKAAAAHHHNNNNN! http://www.slapkirk.com/play I used to have to use that horrible product! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 11 07:19:19 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:19:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/73 into 11/03 chassis? Message-ID: <20151211131919.A7D4D18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jacob Ritorto > Would you happen to have notes or references about how to do it? It's not too hard; basically, one has to wire pins BC1, BD1, BE1 and BF1 (BDAL 18-BDAL21, respectively) on all _QBUS_ slots together into a bus. So wire BC1 on slot 1 to BC1 on slot 2, slot 3, etc, etc. A couple of notes: First, I said '_QBUS_' because if you have a Q/CD backplane, clearly one doesn't run the extra BDAL lines to the CD slots, only the QBUS slots (which run down the left-hand side, when facing the backplane). Second, for optimal analog behaviour, the 'out' slot on the backplane should be the last slot you wire to, so that there are no branches in the transmission line for BDAL18-BDAL21 (which can produce reflections - aka noise - on the transmission lines). How to do this efficiently (in terms of the wiring) can be a bit tricky, depending on the backplane configuration. E.g. if one has the standard 'serpentine' backplane, i.e. one with the slots in the following kind of order (facing the backplane from the board side): 1-2 4-3 5-6 8-7 9-10 etc., one might naively think one has to run the extra bus lines back and forth to match. However, only the _grant_ lines have to follow this pattern (and they are already there); the added lines don't have to follow the same pattern, as long as there are no branches. So, for the example 5-slot backplane above, one could/would wire: 1-4-5-8-9--2-3-6-7-10 i.e. a single vertical run on the left hand side, a single diagonal from 9 back to 2 (shown with "--"), and then another vertical run on the right hand side. Much simpler than wiring back and forth in slot order; there are no branches; and the last slot is the 'out' slot. For backplane with an _even_ number of layers, e.g.: 1-2 4-3 5-6 8-7 it's a little more complicated: a single vertical run on each side cannot be connected in such a way as to have the 'out' slot (8) be the last slot. One has to do something a little more complex: 1-4-5--2-3-6-7--8 with a vertical run on the left side, stopping short of the last slot; then a vertical run on the right side, then a lateral back across on the last layer. Obviously one _could_ run the wires back and forth, in slot order, but that will take a lot more wire, which at the very least is more work (especially on backplanes which don't have full wire-wrap pins, just the little stubby pins that have to have the wires soldered to); whether it also increases the delay down those transmission lines enough to be noticeable is something I don't know the answer to. All the obvious caveats apply: make sure not to get confused by the mirror pin and slot numbers on the front and back sides (you'll be wiring on the back, whereas the diagrams above are on the front), etc. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 11 07:46:50 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? Message-ID: <20151211134650.8866018C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > You should be able to safely power the machine with only a couple > boards at a time to find which one is bad. For debugging power supplies, a 'load module' (a card with only a bunch of resistors on it) is invaluable. No trying to figure out where/how to connect a large load resistor - just plug the board in. DEC made several: M7556 dual - +5V 1A -15V 375mA M9049 M9060-YA quad - +5V 5A M9713-AA dual - +5V 2.75A -15V .75A The M7556 (at least) can be used on both QBUS and UNIBUS backplanes (since they share the same pins for +5 and -12V (QBUS) and -15V (UNIBUS). Probably all the others can be used on both buses, too, but check the pins they draw from first. The M7556 can be easily modified (with a few etch cuts) into a +5/+12V load module, but the resultant board can _only_be used in a QBUS. If you can't find any of these (there are none left on eBay, but other suppliers still seem to have them), another alternative is to get a blank prototyping board from Douglas Electronics (http://www.douglas.com/), and add your own resistors. Noel From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Fri Dec 11 08:33:55 2015 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:33:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING References: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I used to be an ardent bottom-poster like this list requires, but then I was given one very good reason to switch that I believe is valid and persuasive -- bottom posting (and even inline posting), I understand, is a very royal pain in the arse for people who are visually disabled or challenged and require the use of assistance software. While this particular list may not have members who fall into this category (me included), in other realms that I frequent I there are readers who have these restrictions. And for them I learned to top post. I've adapted to top-posting and pretty much every other list I belong to generally works that way. Top-posting makes sense (and can be efficient) when one is following a conversation from the beginning and only needs to quickly find the relevant new additions in each message. But I agree that it is a royal pain in the arse when one jumps into the middle of an on-going thread, as reading backwards from the bottom is frustrating. Top-posting is possibly part of the reason people have unlearned how to trim posts, as they rarely scroll far enough down into the e-mail to see the stuff that is still trailing along in the e-mail. As a Digest reader for most of the forums and e-mail lists I subscribe, not trimming material is a far worse frustration than top- versus bottom posting. I have no choice but to see all the untrimmed material over and over again as I scroll through the digest to find the start of the each message. Equally bad are e-mail clients that don't effectively find a way to demark previous text being quoted by using > characters. I think when top-posting became the rage, software developers for e-mail clients quickly ignored that important piece of effective e-mails because it became so easy to just slap in a horizontal line or some text like "---Previous Message---" and call it good. Even indents get lost in the translation of message between different e-mail clients. For what my comments and observations might be worth. I am only an occasional contributor on this particular list anyway, and so I will adapt to your requests so that I can remain a member. At least we aren't ALL SHOUTING AT EACH OTHER were we following the conventions of many systems of the eras that this list so often talks about, when upper-case only text was often the norm. Kevin Anderson From js at cimmeri.com Fri Dec 11 10:19:16 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:19:16 -0500 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <566AF784.8070304@cimmeri.com> On 12/11/2015 9:33 AM, Kevin Anderson wrote: > I used to be an ardent bottom-poster like this list requires, but then I was given one very good reason to switch that I believe is valid and persuasive -- bottom posting (and even inline posting), I understand, is a very royal pain in the arse for people who are visually disabled or challenged and require the use of assistance software. By the same argument, all printed material should be in Braille, right? It's impractical to have the same common denominator. The problem you describe seems more like it could be handled by better, smarter assistance software. Can't it "page forward"? As we scroll down through a long bottom post series, we recognize what we've read before... so I assume blind people can recognize what they've *heard* before, and can simply scroll forward to the new sections. Interwoven posting, however, would seem the real nightmare for assistance software.. as trying to find where you are and whose voice you're hearing would be unreliable. My email client shows vertical bars for each reply level, but even these are highly unreliable. - J. From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Fri Dec 11 10:45:16 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:45:16 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <566A3FBB.4060604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Dec 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/10/2015 04:30 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> My VAX4000-500 will no longer power up, with the PSU starting up and then ... > Most likely there is a failed capacitor somewhere. Look ... My doctor once said to me that all problems in the head involve teeth and I can safely make a similar exageration: All electronic failures involve capacitors And this becomes (most repulsively) even more true when switch mode power supplies are involved. Keeping that in mind will usually help with diagnosis. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 11 11:06:08 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:06:08 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <566A3FBB.4060604@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <01e601d13436$3a9a63d0$afcf2b70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Loken > Sent: 11 December 2015 16:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: General at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > ... > > My doctor once said to me that all problems in the head involve teeth and I > can safely make a similar exageration: > > All electronic failures involve capacitors > > And this becomes (most repulsively) even more true when switch mode > power supplies are involved. Keeping that in mind will usually help with > diagnosis. > Well, I have the exception that proves the rule. My H7864 PSU (from an rtVAX 1000, same PSU as MicroVAX II) had a switching transistor and resistor fail, no cap failures.... :-) Regards Rob From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:33:18 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:33:18 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 18:07, tony duell wrote: > If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and > start typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, but > that is not my problem! Strongly agree. Adrian, if your email client doesn't let you bottom-quote properly, it's broken. The only desktop client I've seen that is so completely broken is MS Outlook. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:47:02 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:47:02 -0000 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 10 December 2015 01:32 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal > of a lifetime!!! > > >> All the email clients I have are top posting > > There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you don't happen > to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. > I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. All the ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let me post in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a pain. > >> get with the times > > No. > > If your email client defaults to top-posting, it probably also defaults to no- > trimming, which is possibly an even greater offense; take a few moments to > trim your quotes for relevance and put your text where it belongs (which is > inline after the parts you're responding to, not just moved to the bottom). If > your email client won't let you do that, it is just plain broken and has no place > in civilized discourse. > > Or, of course, feel free to be as obnoxious as you want in how you format > your outbound email. But everyone else is equally free to ignore you. I > know I certainly am likely to, if you insist on top-posting and/or not trimming. > > > Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the > > 1990s or newer. > > Actually, it's just plain arrogant (and/or rude). I've written up a piece which > describes how I see this, which is at ftp.rodents- > montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt; the last three paragraphs are > especially relevant to this point. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:49:29 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:49:29 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 18:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > Let's indulge, for a moment, in some paranoid rantings, . . . > IF Google were not so honorable and ethical, what kind of power > COULD they eventually wield with such complete knowledge of people? I'm with Scott McNeally. "You _have_ no privacy on the Internet. Get over it." If I cared, I could run my own server, PGP everything, etc. I am capable of it. But [a] life's too short [b] Gmail is a very good service, runs on all my PCs and devices, keeps them all in sync -- mail, address book and calendar [c] Even if I did go PGP-crazy, there are very few people I could communicate with. I have other email addresses. Lots of 'em. About 5 still get checked regularly. But, frankly, Gmail is the best, so I stay with it. I am paranoid enough to use a local client to keep a local backup, though... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:53:34 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:53:34 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM > >> On 10 December 2015 at 16:54, > wrote: >>> Bad news is Gmail never deletes your emails, ever. They remove them from >>> your view but keep it on their servers for profiling you. > >> *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? > > Piker. Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins: "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-) So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing 50. :-D > My e-mail archives extend back to the 1970s, stored on 9-track mag tape > (with slight interruptions for job changes--learned that lesson after a while). > Oh, ;-) I had some too -- I never preserved my old DOS-based OLR/email program Matrix. :-( I only have emails from when I switched to a Windows client onwards. :-( But in 1970, I was 3. I got my first email account at 15Y old, at University. Didn't keep those, either. :-( > On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, [...] > Simple. Quick. This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick" that I wasn't previously aware of. [To paraphrase Douglas Adams.] ObEditWar: I'm still trying to learn ErgoEmacs, but damn it is hard to love... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:54:21 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:54:21 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 December 2015 at 18:07, tony duell wrote: > > If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and > > start typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, > but > > that is not my problem! > > > Strongly agree. Adrian, if your email client doesn't let you > bottom-quote properly, it's broken. > > The only desktop client I've seen that is so completely broken is MS > Outlook. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > Any of you guys have mail clients that let you compose mails about *anything* other than the apparent evils of TOP POSTING? - Josh From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:54:51 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:54:51 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <877445728.845651.1449844435838.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 15:33, Kevin Anderson wrote: > I used to be an ardent bottom-poster like this list requires, but then I was given one very good reason to switch that I believe is valid and persuasive -- bottom posting (and even inline posting), I understand, is a very royal pain in the arse for people who are visually disabled or challenged and require the use of assistance software. Yes, this is true. And for the benefit of the 1 blind close friend with whom I email a lot, I learned, uncomfortably, to top-post. Now I do it with everyone because people miss bottom-posted replies. :-( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:56:46 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:56:46 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 19:47, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. All the > ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let me post > in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a pain. I don't use Windows unless someone pays me to suffer it. However, I used to use and like Thunderbird and still do on Linux and Mac. If you're willing to go proprietary -- I prefer not to -- I have heard nothing but praise for The Bat! [sic] -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From wulfman at wulfman.com Fri Dec 11 13:25:50 2015 From: wulfman at wulfman.com (wulfman) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:25:50 -0700 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> Thunderbird has calendars now. On 12/11/2015 11:47 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse >> Sent: 10 December 2015 01:32 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal >> of a lifetime!!! >> >>>> All the email clients I have are top posting >> There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you don't > happen >> to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. >> > I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. All the > ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let me post > in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a pain. > > >>>> get with the times >> No. >> >> If your email client defaults to top-posting, it probably also defaults to > no- >> trimming, which is possibly an even greater offense; take a few moments to >> trim your quotes for relevance and put your text where it belongs (which > is >> inline after the parts you're responding to, not just moved to the > bottom). If >> your email client won't let you do that, it is just plain broken and has > no place >> in civilized discourse. >> >> Or, of course, feel free to be as obnoxious as you want in how you format >> your outbound email. But everyone else is equally free to ignore you. I >> know I certainly am likely to, if you insist on top-posting and/or not > trimming. >>> Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from the >>> 1990s or newer. >> Actually, it's just plain arrogant (and/or rude). I've written up a piece > which >> describes how I see this, which is at ftp.rodents- >> montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt; the last three paragraphs are >> especially relevant to this point. >> >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the use of the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 13:19:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:19:34 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 03:45 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > You are completely right, but the drive is selected always as this is > a "one drive only" implementation. The same drive-selection-magic > would otherwise also apply to the "Read Sector Buffer" command which > works without any error. Hmmm, another piece of the puzzle perhaps. If memory serves, "read sector buffer" and "identify" are two operations that are restricted to PIO 0 mode (I'll have to check, but I think that's true). If you issue a "read sector buffer" right after the LBA read sector aborts, do you get the correct data back? If so, I wonder if the drive is expecting that DMA mode will be used by default. Just a thought. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 14:04:41 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:04:41 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi Chuck, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you issue a "read sector buffer" right after the LBA read sector > aborts, do you get the correct data back? This is the question... what is the "correct data"? Would I be able to see the cyl/sector/head information I've set before in that buffer? I didn't understand what the sector buffer really is by reading the docs. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Dec 11 14:06:41 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:06:41 -0700 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <566B2CD1.3000909@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/11/2015 12:25 PM, wulfman wrote: > Thunderbird has calendars now. OH look, every app all wants to be windows. You update for bug fixes and look at the crap you get. Ben. BTW If you trim posts, who cares if you top post or not. PS: I also hate long sig files. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 14:39:52 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:39:52 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 12:04 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > This is the question... what is the "correct data"? Would I be able > to see the cyl/sector/head information I've set before in that > buffer? I didn't understand what the sector buffer really is by > reading the docs. Well, ideally, this contains the data of the last sector transferred. It provides a sanity check on the data transfer path. So you should be able to do a "read sector buffer" after the aborted "read sector" and get some clue. At least that's my understanding. --Chuck From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 14:42:22 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:42:22 -0800 Subject: HP (Agilent) SCSI BUS Preprocessor Message-ID: > Which one? > > I have never found the config and IA software for the 10343B version > which attaches to a 10269C General Purpose Probe Interface. Dang. Yes. That one. > The standalone E2423A version is the same thing as the FuturePlus FS2230. > > https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/opman/fsscsia.pdf > > https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/datasheets/fsscsi.pdf > > https://web.archive.org/web/20001005102542/http://www.futureplus.com/download/syssw/scsi1-2.zip Oh, thanks! If I can get the inverse assembler for this one, then I can probably create a config for the HP 10343 hardware to make it work! You may have solved the biggest part of my problem. Marc From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 14:53:37 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:53:37 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? Message-ID: <302E5726-7601-4FDE-AC08-1EC3B34DD738@gmail.com> >> Just going by what you write...BTW, what are you using as a reference? > I've used ftp://ftp.seagate.com/acrobat/reference/111-1c.pdf a lot. > Also other IDE implementations on ATMegas. Do you mind providing links to any good implementations of IDE on ATMega you know of? Marc From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 14:56:14 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:56:14 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566B386E.2050808@gmail.com> On 12/11/2015 12:56 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 11 December 2015 at 19:47, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> >> I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. All the >> ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let me post >> in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a pain. > > I don't use Windows unless someone pays me to suffer it. > > However, I used to use and like Thunderbird and still do on Linux and Mac. I can't for the life of me get it to thread this list nicely. It works everywhere else, and is reasonably capable, but for some posts here it insists on starting a new thread for the same subject, or burying a new thread (i.e. different subject) deep within an existing one. I think the former problem is down to a missing 'references' line in a message (anything from certain posters, e.g. Noel Chiappa and Ed Sharpe, seems to trigger it). The latter problem I think is when someone replies to a message purely as a way of populating the 'to' field and then completely changes the subject line. Thunderbird's behavior is sort of understandable in both cases, it's just annoying on a list where traffic can be high; I think what I really want it to do is *always* thread according to the subject line, then use the references line (if present) to tie messages with the same subject together, and to fall back on the message timestamp otherwise. cheers Jules From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 15:00:31 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:00:31 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2015 12:04 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> This is the question... what is the "correct data"? Would I be able >> to see the cyl/sector/head information I've set before in that >> buffer? I didn't understand what the sector buffer really is by >> reading the docs. > > Well, ideally, this contains the data of the last sector > transferred. It provides a sanity check on the data transfer path. > > So you should be able to do a "read sector buffer" after the aborted > "read sector" and get some clue. OK, after I issue the read-cmd and the ABRT occured, I directly fetch the sector buffer and it contains: 7a424c0c0000100000e158023f001000 00000e004457572d3254393839313032 31392034202020200300000116003332 312e5536333744572043434131333036 48302020202020202020202020202020 20202020202020202020202020201080 0000002f000080020000020000000000 0000000000000001406b300000000704 030078007800a0007800000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 ... 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000007800 When I ignore the ERR-Status and read 512bytes anyhow, I'm reading always this: 051760290510151037332e303455000d 0201251c120141123001530822015b1c 10020112110213141302271025017705 2302370e2e017c032102450824017f01 20024d0a000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 [...] 00000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000 I've tried to read block 0, 1 and 2 - all reads are aborted, sector buffer is always the same. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 15:00:59 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:00:59 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <302E5726-7601-4FDE-AC08-1EC3B34DD738@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151211220059.Horde.MIyzzNzd-xw8q1YXu2-Y2f0@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Marc Verdiell wrote: >>> Just going by what you write...BTW, what are you using as a reference? >> I've used ftp://ftp.seagate.com/acrobat/reference/111-1c.pdf a lot. >> Also other IDE implementations on ATMegas. > > Do you mind providing links to any good implementations of IDE on > ATMega you know of? > Marc Of course mine ;) And http://www.opend.co.za/hardware/avride/avride.htm but I never verified if his implementation would work with my harddisk.... From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 15:13:34 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:13:34 -0800 Subject: HP (Agilent) SCSI BUS Preprocessor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 12:42 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > > Oh, thanks! If I can get the inverse assembler for this one, then I can probably create a config for the HP 10343 hardware to make it work! You may have solved the biggest part of my problem. > > Marc Comparing between the manuals for the 10343B and the E2433A the STAT bits don't have quite the same layout between the two preprocessors. Depending on how the IAs use the STAT bits I don't know if you could get the E2433A / FS2230 IA to work correctly with the 10343B. I've never tried it myself. A scan of the 10343B manual is available here just in case you don't already have it: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/te/logic_analyzer_preprocessors/10343-90901_10343B_SCSI_Bus_Preprocessor_Sep88.pdf It would be nice if a copy of the config and IA disk for the 10343B turned up somewhere. I've been keeping an eye out for one and haven't seen one yet. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 15:26:09 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:26:09 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/11/2015 12:04 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> This is the question... what is the "correct data"? Would I be able >>> to see the cyl/sector/head information I've set before in that >>> buffer? I didn't understand what the sector buffer really is by >>> reading the docs. >> >> Well, ideally, this contains the data of the last sector >> transferred. It provides a sanity check on the data transfer path. >> >> So you should be able to do a "read sector buffer" after the >> aborted "read sector" and get some clue. I now tried something different. I issued a "format track command" and sent 512 bytes afterwards as described in the ata spec. The drive does not respond with an error, and when I read the sector buffer right afterwards, it contains the exact data I transfered after I issued the format track command. From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 15:39:07 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:39:07 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566B386E.2050808@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B386E.2050808@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:56 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > I can't for the life of me get it to thread this list nicely. It works > everywhere else, and is reasonably capable, but for some posts here it > insists on starting a new thread for the same subject, or burying a new > thread (i.e. different subject) deep within an existing one. > > I think the former problem is down to a missing 'references' line in a > message (anything from certain posters, e.g. Noel Chiappa and Ed Sharpe, > seems to trigger it). The latter problem I think is when someone replies to > a message purely as a way of populating the 'to' field and then completely > changes the subject line. > I've used mutt's threading features to manually split or join threads when those things happen, but since I'm using GMail through it, it seems that Google's idea of what threads are take precedence and they go back to the way they were. -- Eric Christopherson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:48:56 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:48:56 -0000 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> It does not make sense for the ply to come at the end. It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap many times just to get to a one sentence reply. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 10 December 2015 17:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal > of a lifetime!!! > > > > > All the email clients I have are top posting get with the times you > > guys > > I have no desire to 'get with the times' -- this is classiccmp after all. > > If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and start > typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, but that is > not my problem! > > Like most English-speakers I read text from top to bottom. As a result it > makes sense for the reply to come _after_ the original message. And how on > earth do you reply to individual points if you top-post? Put the reply before > the paragraph you are commenting on??? > > -tony] From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:57:24 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:57:24 -0000 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <083301d13467$4d9ee5b0$e8dcb110$@gmail.com> , Dave G4UGM > wrote: > > > > I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. > > All the ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let > > me post in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a > pain. > > I don't use Windows unless someone pays me to suffer it. > That kind of happens to me. > However, I used to use and like Thunderbird and still do on Linux and Mac. Thunderbird is a PITA. In order to get buttons that let you go to the next message you need several plug-ins. Whenever its updated at least one of these breaks. I still have it for UseNet news. > > If you're willing to go proprietary -- I prefer not to -- I have heard nothing but > praise for The Bat! [sic] > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 16:58:08 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:58:08 -0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> Message-ID: <083401d13467$67bf4840$373dd8c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wulfman > Sent: 11 December 2015 19:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: TOP POSTING > > Thunderbird has calendars now. > Only with more plug-ins.... > > On 12/11/2015 11:47 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Mouse > >> Sent: 10 December 2015 01:32 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! > >> Deal of a lifetime!!! > >> > >>>> All the email clients I have are top posting > >> There are good civilized email clients available in plenty; if you > >> don't > > happen > >> to have any, I can only assume you can't be bothered. > >> > > I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. > > All the ones I have tried suck in some way. Outlook will no longer let > > me post in-line on HTML mails. FreeBird won't look at calendars. Em is just a > pain. > > > > > >>>> get with the times > >> No. > >> > >> If your email client defaults to top-posting, it probably also > >> defaults to > > no- > >> trimming, which is possibly an even greater offense; take a few > >> moments to trim your quotes for relevance and put your text where it > >> belongs (which > > is > >> inline after the parts you're responding to, not just moved to the > > bottom). If > >> your email client won't let you do that, it is just plain broken and > >> has > > no place > >> in civilized discourse. > >> > >> Or, of course, feel free to be as obnoxious as you want in how you > >> format your outbound email. But everyone else is equally free to > >> ignore you. I know I certainly am likely to, if you insist on > >> top-posting and/or not > > trimming. > >>> Top posting implies that you are only interested in computers from > >>> the 1990s or newer. > >> Actually, it's just plain arrogant (and/or rude). I've written up a > >> piece > > which > >> describes how I see this, which is at ftp.rodents- > >> montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt; the last three paragraphs > >> are especially relevant to this point. > >> > >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse > >> \ / Ribbon Campaign > >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > > > -- > The contents of this e-mail and any attachments are intended solely for the > use of the named > addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information. > Any unauthorized use, copying, disclosure, or distribution of the contents of > this e-mail is strictly prohibited by the sender and may be unlawful. If you are > not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete > this e-mail. From radiotest at juno.com Fri Dec 11 17:50:11 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:50:11 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151211184345.03d4f5f0@juno.com> At 01:47 PM 12/11/2015, Dave G4UGM wrote >I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. I still use Eudora Pro. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 17:58:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:58:54 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 01:26 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I now tried something different. I issued a "format track command" > and sent 512 bytes afterwards as described in the ata spec. The drive > does not respond with an error, and when I read the sector buffer > right afterwards, it contains the exact data I transfered after I > issued the format track command. Okay, this is not getting results. I believe that a long way back in the thread that you said that only one drive make+model exhibited this issue--other drives worked fine. Right now, I can't find the post where you specified the drive. Who knows--I might have one. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Dec 11 18:16:17 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:16:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com>, <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap > many times just to get to a one sentence reply. That is _exactly_ why quotes should be trimmed for relevance. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 18:35:53 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:35:53 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2015 01:26 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> I now tried something different. I issued a "format track command" >> and sent 512 bytes afterwards as described in the ata spec. The drive >> does not respond with an error, and when I read the sector buffer >> right afterwards, it contains the exact data I transfered after I >> issued the format track command. > > > Okay, this is not getting results. I believe that a long way back > in the thread that you said that only one drive make+model exhibited > this issue--other drives worked fine. > > Right now, I can't find the post where you specified the drive. Who > knows--I might have one. Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is. I'm waiting for a 32Port-LA (might take up to a month). When it is there I'll continue debugging that issue and see what a MS-DOS does different from what I do. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 11 18:43:59 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:43:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com>, <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap >> many times just to get to a one sentence reply. IFF people were to be considerate and delete/trim/remove all of the irrelevant parts of the quoted material, then the placement of the reply would not matter. We are arguing over which is the best way to work around refusal to trim by lazy inconsiderate people. > That is _exactly_ why quotes should be trimmed for relevance. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 11 18:49:48 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:49:48 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1918F55B-58C0-46AE-8E44-34567A9C3AC9@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 11, 2015, at 4:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap >>> many times just to get to a one sentence reply. > > IFF people were to be considerate and delete/trim/remove all of the irrelevant parts of the quoted material, then the placement of the reply would not matter. We are arguing over which is the best way to work around refusal to trim by lazy inconsiderate people. > >> That is _exactly_ why quotes should be trimmed for relevance. I agree. I prefer top posting in those cases because then I don?t have to scroll through *pages* of text that I?ve already read just to find one or two lines of text. I?m at the point now that if I can?t see the reply on the first page of an email (which given my screen size and font combination is about 60 lines), I ignore it (and silently curse bottom posting). ;-) TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 18:58:46 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:58:46 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566B7146.7070606@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is. > > I'm waiting for a 32Port-LA (might take up to a month). When it is > there I'll continue debugging that issue and see what a MS-DOS does > different from what I do. MS-DOS uses the native BIOS for hard disk accesses, unless you're running Windows 3.1 or so and use a VxD to drive the ports directly. But, I think I've actually got one of those 1.GB Caviar drives. I'm not sure if it's still operational, but I'll check my drive cabinet. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Dec 11 19:02:27 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 02:02:27 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566B7146.7070606@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B7146.7070606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151212020227.Horde.npdTbX-o-8BjP4AcTG53asd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is. >> >> I'm waiting for a 32Port-LA (might take up to a month). When it is >> there I'll continue debugging that issue and see what a MS-DOS does >> different from what I do. > > MS-DOS uses the native BIOS for hard disk accesses, unless you're > running Windows 3.1 or so and use a VxD to drive the ports directly. Which is perfectly fine - I just want to see what is going on the drive interface + timings - to see what is going on differently from my implementation. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 11 19:12:49 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:12:49 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com>, <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <66F42846-A5B6-44DC-AFBD-70E87C4658D9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-11, at 4:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap >>> many times just to get to a one sentence reply. > > IFF people were to be considerate and delete/trim/remove all of the irrelevant parts of the quoted material, then the placement of the reply would not matter. We are arguing over which is the best way to work around refusal to trim by lazy inconsiderate people. On this list many replies involve responses to multiple points in the prior material. Even if people trim the prior material, top-posting will still be non-sensical and confusing. For discussions of the nature for which this list is intended, bottom-posting - after appropriately trimmed/selected prior point(s) - is the clearest and most (or only) consistent method. Top posting may be workable for simple, private, casual conversations. That's not this list. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:24:11 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 02:24:11 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 23:48, Dave Wade wrote: > It does not make sense for the ply to come at the end. It's a total waste of > time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap many times just to get to a > one sentence reply. You don't. I don't. Any decent MUA suppresses this. Again, if you see this kind of behaviour, you have a broken email client. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 11 19:25:12 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:25:12 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151212020227.Horde.npdTbX-o-8BjP4AcTG53asd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B7146.7070606@sydex.com> <20151212020227.Horde.npdTbX-o-8BjP4AcTG53asd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566B7778.3030309@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 05:02 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Which is perfectly fine - I just want to see what is going on the > drive interface + timings - to see what is going on differently from > my implementation. > If I've got the drive and it's working, at least I've got some x86 code that can drive it in PIO mode. If it works, I'll pass it along. There may be a hint or two in it. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:25:21 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 02:25:21 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <083301d13467$4d9ee5b0$e8dcb110$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <083301d13467$4d9ee5b0$e8dcb110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 December 2015 at 23:57, Dave Wade wrote: > In order to get buttons that let you go to the next message There's one on your keyboard. It's the big long rectangular one at the bottom. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Dec 11 20:00:51 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 02:00:51 +0000 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Liam Proven Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM > On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Liam Proven >> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM >>> *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? >> Piker. > Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly > offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or > these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins: > "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-) > So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing > 50. :-D Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that. According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it is refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays. Hmm. In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s, the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in a small way. Usually used jokingly. Thus, that your collected e-mail is two decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description. Certainly no offense intended. >> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, > [...] >> Simple. Quick. > This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick" > that I wasn't previously aware of. Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me. Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca Sat Dec 12 02:19:09 2015 From: richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:19:09 -0700 (MST) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <01e601d13436$3a9a63d0$afcf2b70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Dec 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Well, I have the exception that proves the rule. My H7864 PSU (from an > rtVAX 1000, same PSU as MicroVAX II) had a switching transistor and > resistor fail, no cap failures.... Well, I did admit I was exagerrating. :) -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father Athabasca University : but you have to earn Athabasca, Alberta Canada : the title of 'daddy'" ** richardlo at admin.athabascau.ca ** : - Lynn Johnston From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Dec 12 02:22:10 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:22:10 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566B7778.3030309@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B7146.7070606@sydex.com> <20151212020227.Horde.npdTbX-o-8BjP4AcTG53asd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B7778.3030309@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151212092210.Horde.p3sZKiZ6a8CuDIkG1eigr1c@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2015 05:02 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Which is perfectly fine - I just want to see what is going on the >> drive interface + timings - to see what is going on differently from >> my implementation. >> > > If I've got the drive and it's working, at least I've got some x86 > code that can drive it in PIO mode. If it works, I'll pass it > along. There may be a hint or two in it. > Is it exactly the same? I've got other (2 years newer) cavier drives too and they are all working fine. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 19:50:40 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:50:40 -0500 Subject: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k Message-ID: Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? Here's a visual aid in case you're needing further inspiration: https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ The M2333K is the smaller one on the left with the green and yellow lights on. I'm booting from rl0, which contains the tuhs 2.9.1 rl02 image I wrote with vtserver earlier. I want to use my nice, roomy smd disk so I can pull in all the sources and recompile stuff and I've managed to get this *so* close to working but I'm getting xp0a: hard error bn xxxx cs2=1100 er1=0 on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800 This disk was working fine years ago via MSCP attached to the 11/73 (before I lost the Micro/11 power supply). Anyway, I referred to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/emulex/SC2151001-CC_SC21tech_Jan87.pdf to set the emulation on the Emulex card for two rm03s and they're showing up in xxdp's zrmlb1 formatter, though they won't format there, screensful of errors. I think I set the m2333k to 32 sectors, per this manual: http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/chrisq/B03P-4760-0101A_-_M2331,M2333_Micro-Disk_Drives_OEM_Manual.pdf Because XXDP is reputed to be really strict, I figured that was normal and then tried the Emulex on-board formatting procedure against both xp0 and xp4 and they formatted perfectly without error. Guess the Emulex on-board stuff doesn't bother verifying much? So I think that maybe I've misunderstood the hard sectoring / sector sizing thing. Does anyone remember the gist of it and would you be able to describe? Do you see any other mistakes? thx jake From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 23:33:58 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:33:58 -0800 Subject: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566BB1C6.2020309@gmail.com> On 12/11/15 5:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? Here's a visual aid in case > you're needing further inspiration: > https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ The > M2333K is the smaller one on the left with the green and yellow lights on. > I'm booting from rl0, which contains the tuhs 2.9.1 rl02 image I wrote with > vtserver earlier. > > I want to use my nice, roomy smd disk so I can pull in all the sources and > recompile stuff and I've managed to get this *so* close to working but I'm > getting > > xp0a: hard error bn xxxx cs2=1100 er1=0 > > on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800 > > This disk was working fine years ago via MSCP attached to the 11/73 (before > I lost the Micro/11 power supply). > > Anyway, I referred to > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/emulex/SC2151001-CC_SC21tech_Jan87.pdf > to set the emulation on the Emulex card for two rm03s and they're showing > up in xxdp's zrmlb1 formatter, though they won't format there, screensful > of errors. > > I think I set the m2333k to 32 sectors, per this manual: > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/chrisq/B03P-4760-0101A_-_M2331,M2333_Micro-Disk_Drives_OEM_Manual.pdf > > Because XXDP is reputed to be really strict, I figured that was normal and > then tried the Emulex on-board formatting procedure against both xp0 and > xp4 and they formatted perfectly without error. Guess the Emulex on-board > stuff doesn't bother verifying much? > > So I think that maybe I've misunderstood the hard sectoring / sector sizing > thing. Does anyone remember the gist of it and would you be able to > describe? Do you see any other mistakes? > > thx > jake > I'm not an expert with SMD drives and I've never used your particular controller (I have a slightly newer Emulex in my 11/44) but here's a couple of things I noted while leafing through the SC21 manual you linked: 1.) The SC21's format does *no* verification at all. It lays down an initial format and that's it. It doesn't create the bad-block list (more on that later). 2.) Section 6 of the manual lists a set of modifications (patches) that need to be made to XXDP diagnostics in order for them to work properly with the SC21. This includes the ZRMAC0 formatter form RM02/RM03. You'll likely need to apply them; hopefully you can find the required versions to hack... 3.) In addition to setting the sector size/sector count on the Fujitsu, did you also configure the SC21 for the appropriate drive? (see Appendix A) I don't see an M2333 listed there specifically, but there might be something with a similar (or identical) geometry you can use instead. Regarding the bad-block list: You are going to need this to be generated properly, and the only way to do that is to run the appropriate XXDP formatter and exercisers. If you have the bad block list for the drive, hopefully one of the diags will let you enter it, otherwise I suggest running *many* passes of the exercisers until they stop finding bad blocks. After you have that step done, you will need to have a 2.9.1BSD kernel that's been compiled with bad block support, otherwise BSD will simply ignore bad sectors and assume the whole disk is good -- which will cause bad things to happen as soon as something is written over a bad sector. (Apologies if any of the above is already old-hat; just trying to cover all the bases I know of...) - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 21:28:17 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:28:17 -0500 Subject: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? It is! > https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ Nice! > xp0a: hard error bn xxxx cs2=1100 er1=0 > > on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800 I can't help you with M2333K specifics, but do you get anything meaningful if you use 'dd' on the raw disk, first to read, then to write? ISTR /dev/xp0c or /dev/xp0g might be the "all the disk" partition. It doesn't really matter _which_ partition you are trying to read from, but might as well start at the beginning and allow it to go to the end. If you can't read a block at the OS level, you probably won't be able to write it to drop a filesystem on it (I'm sure there are imaginable scenarios where that's possible, but for a simple smoke test, just try to read one block with dd and pipe it to 'od'. I can't remember if od is available on 2BSD, but dd is most likely there since I think I remember using it to stuff bootblocks at the fronts of disks). Of course there are several imaginable scenarios where you could read but not write. Write but not read is far, far less conceivable. -ethan From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 04:47:00 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 04:47:00 -0600 Subject: Castlevaina for the Commodore 64 In-Reply-To: References: <56692342.6060204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <226E0519-CAEB-4A1B-9781-664C38C4A28A@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:55 AM, "drlegendre ." wrote: > > Hey Mike, > > Thanks, but I don't know if I need the codes, they are probably posted > online? In any case, I found the game in my archive, so I attached it for > you.. > > It's in a zip file, containing one or two .D64 disk images. It's probably > cracked, so you shouldn't need any kind of passwords, I'd think? I tried > it, and it boots up on my emulator.. > > -Bill > >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Mike wrote: >> >> I have a mint copy with all the passwords if you need a copy of the >> passwords let me know I am going to have to type them in because they >> are printed on DARK brown paper with black text you cant scan it I tried >> so let me know if any of ya need them... >> >> Also it surprisingly has pretty good graphics for the first version of >> Castlevaina or I think it is... Thanks Bill. Have a blessed day... >> From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 05:05:30 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:05:30 +0100 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 12 December 2015 at 03:00, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM > >> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> From: Liam Proven >>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM > >>>> *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? > >>> Piker. > >> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly >> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or >> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins: >> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-) > >> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing >> 50. :-D > > Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that. Indeed. > According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it is > refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays. Hmm. Oh! OK. New one on me, and I thought I was reasonable at US idioms. I have probably misheard or misparsed it before now, thought it strangely out-of-context and moved on. > In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s, > the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in a > small way. Usually used jokingly. Thus, that your collected e-mail is two > decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description. That was my general impression, but I read it as age rather than quantity. Close enough for government work. > Certainly no offense intended. Oh, none taken! >>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, >> [...] >>> Simple. Quick. > >> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick" >> that I wasn't previously aware of. > > Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you > were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me. First editor. Hmm. I guess the Commodore full-screen BASIC code editor on the PET series doesn't really count. But before I used it in any anger, in Comp Sci class, I got a ZX Spectrum after playing with my uncle's ZX 81. But the Spectrum barely had an editor, either, so I mostly used Beta BASIC which was slightly (slightly) richer. (A used Spectrum 48K cost my parents ?80. No idea of exchange rates in 1982-1983: at a total guess ITRO US$ 140-150? That was the most computer we could afford.) First actual discrete editor which could load and save files was probably EDT on a terminal on the University VAX in about 1985. I was never a master but I could use it. Does that have enough early-editor kudos? Probably not. :-( > Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-) Well, quite! :-D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 05:41:23 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 05:41:23 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64? Message-ID: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> If I would have known!!! WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look at this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful to new people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now that it has been said 1000000000000 times to scroll down and put my text there all I wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's. Can we do that? I make a post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here that's all I want to do! There are many Computer geniuses on here that I can learn a lot from that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's and I collect Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the Commodore 64? Sent from my iPhone From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 06:07:44 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:07:44 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <4F569158-C52F-4788-B080-960416288803@aracnet.com> <566921D0.3040305@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:20 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:13 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> But yes, there are methods (even from the classic era) to load arbitrary >> code into the 2600 using a proprietary cartridge and a cassette tape >> machine. In essence, the special cart has a small bootstrap ROM that loads >> the software from the cassette into an internal (to the cart) RAM space >> which is then banked in as if it were a real 2600 cart ROM. >> >> Of course, the software is still limited to the hardware resources of the >> 2600.. the cart just emulates a plug-in ROM. >> >> So did this post properly? If not, I don't know how else to do it! > > Yep! > > As for 2600 cassette schemes, > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starpath_Supercharger was the one I'm > aware of. Man I bet a cart like that would be hard to find and verrrrrrrry spendy!!! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 06:13:35 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:13:35 -0600 Subject: CREEPYPASTA In-Reply-To: <20151210134556.D303E18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151210134556.D303E18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <164E2656-F4F4-4B8B-8408-54770AABFBA5@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: Pontus Pihlgren > >> Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two >> PDP-12s!! > >> It still gives me the chills. > > I can top that. Someone told me they were going to start a thread about > top-posting on a list supposedly about vintage computers. I'm still > shaking. > > Noel Have any of you read "PENPAL" one of the best! http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIhLDKrePPY From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 06:57:04 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:57:04 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> References: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2015 6:41 AM, "Mike" wrote: > > If I would have known!!! > > WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look at this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful to new people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now that it has been said 1000000000000 times to scroll down and put my text there all I wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's. Can we do that? I make a post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here that's all I want to do! There are many Computer geniuses on here that I can learn a lot from that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's and I collect Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the Commodore 64? > > Sent from my iPhone Mike Where are you located? Yes this list is quirky. Welcome anyway! I suggest vintage-computer.com forum, they talk about C64s a lot there. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 07:04:49 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:04:49 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0DC1A43B-A0D3-4796-BF57-D8F2696761A8@gmail.com> NonStopTalk Team > On Dec 12, 2015, at 6:57 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> On Dec 12, 2015 6:41 AM, "Mike" wrote: >> >> If I would have known!!! >> >> WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look > at this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful > to new people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now > that it has been said 1000000000000 times to scroll down and put my text > there all I wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's. Can we do > that? I make a post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do > yall not want new people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here > that's all I want to do! There are many Computer geniuses on here that I > can learn a lot from that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's > and I collect Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the > Commodore 64? >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > Mike > Where are you located? Yes this list is quirky. Welcome anyway! I > suggest vintage-computer.com forum, they talk about C64s a lot there. > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net I go there but the wealth of knowledge that is in here is invaluable to me I have high respect for all the old schoolers in here! And just would like to learn as much as I can! :) they can be rude it's ok I'll just kill them with kindness. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 07:17:07 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:17:07 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM > >> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> From: Liam Proven >>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM > >>>> *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? > >>> Piker. > >> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly >> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or >> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins: >> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-) > >> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing >> 50. :-D > > Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that. > > According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it is > refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays. Hmm. > > In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s, > the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in a > small way. Usually used jokingly. Thus, that your collected e-mail is two > decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description. > > Certainly no offense intended. > >>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, >> [...] >>> Simple. Quick. > >> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick" >> that I wasn't previously aware of. > > Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you > were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me. > Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-) > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ Thank you for the Museum link Rich. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 07:22:09 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:22:09 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM > >> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> From: Liam Proven >>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM > >>>> *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So? > >>> Piker. > >> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly >> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or >> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins: >> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-) > >> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing >> 50. :-D > > Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that. > > According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it is > refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays. Hmm. > > In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s, > the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in a > small way. Usually used jokingly. Thus, that your collected e-mail is two > decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description. > > Certainly no offense intended. > >>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup, >> [...] >>> Simple. Quick. > >> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick" >> that I wasn't previously aware of. > > Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you > were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me. > Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-) > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 07:26:56 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:26:56 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <66F42846-A5B6-44DC-AFBD-70E87C4658D9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <081201d13466$1ec301a0$5c4904e0$@gmail.com> <201512120016.TAA20555@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <66F42846-A5B6-44DC-AFBD-70E87C4658D9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <89F404BD-B8A5-4714-96C8-88C9E13AE1D5@gmail.com> > On Dec 11, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2015-Dec-11, at 4:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>> It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap >>>> many times just to get to a one sentence reply. >> >> IFF people were to be considerate and delete/trim/remove all of the irrelevant parts of the quoted material, then the placement of the reply would not matter. We are arguing over which is the best way to work around refusal to trim by lazy inconsiderate people. > > On this list many replies involve responses to multiple points in the prior material. Even if people trim the prior material, top-posting will still be non-sensical and confusing. > For discussions of the nature for which this list is intended, bottom-posting - after appropriately trimmed/selected prior point(s) - is the clearest and most (or only) consistent method. > > Top posting may be workable for simple, private, casual conversations. That's not this list. > Now that I have been here a few days now I agree 100% I hope my sig is gone now I removed it lol sorry about that. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Dec 12 07:49:25 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:49:25 +0100 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the > world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about > the tape, > cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in > them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?= When I started in 1969, displays certainly were not commonplace, but we got the jobs done anyhow. All our (administrative) jobs started as punched cards (later data-entry on IBM 3740), were read via an IBM 2540 card reader / puncher, handled on an IBM 360/40, with output on e.g. the venerable 1403 printer. Data was kept on magnetic tapes and 2311 harddisks, with each a whopping 7.25 MB capacity. So, when you had to look at something, you looked at fanfold paper, with holes on both sides. Other applications could put holes in cards /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 1222 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 08:18:54 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Tulsamike3434@gmail.com) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:18:54 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> Message-ID: <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> > On Dec 12, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 2:22 PM > Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING > >> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the >> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about >> the tape, > cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in >> them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?= > > When I started in 1969, displays certainly were not commonplace, but we got > the jobs done anyhow. > All our (administrative) jobs started as punched cards (later data-entry on > IBM 3740), were read via an IBM 2540 card reader / puncher, handled on an > IBM 360/40, with output on e.g. the venerable 1403 printer. Data was kept on > magnetic tapes and 2311 harddisks, with each a whopping 7.25 MB capacity. > So, when you had to look at something, you looked at fanfold paper, with > holes on both sides. > Other applications could put holes in cards > /Nico > > -- > I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. > SPAMfighter has removed 1222 of my spam emails to date. > Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen > So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 12 09:07:48 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:07:48 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20151211184345.03d4f5f0@juno.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151211184345.03d4f5f0@juno.com> Message-ID: <566C3844.4030109@deltasoft.com> On 12/11/2015 3:50 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote: > At 01:47 PM 12/11/2015, Dave G4UGM wrote > >> I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows. > > I still use Eudora Pro. > I'm using the current version of Thunderbird[*] right now and it not only quotes properly, but I've got it configured such that even if the inbound message is HTML it converts it to plain text when I hit reply. ;) The calendar function is built in, but because I have no use for it I'm not sure what connectivity options it offers. g. [*] A power outage on Wednesday killed the power supply in my main mail exchanger that I read email on via Alpine. F*ck Dell and their proprietary power supplies and connectors! From brain at jbrain.com Sat Dec 12 10:32:21 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:32:21 -0600 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question Message-ID: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone know what it is? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 12 10:51:18 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:51:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [cctalk] Head-less computers (Was: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: [2^6 lines of irrelevance omitted] On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in > the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know > about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches > in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? > ? ? graphics! Instead of a screen, you looked at "paper" (a flat, thin, slightly flexible product made form ground-up dead trees). There was a campaign called "The Paperless Office" set up by the papermills to sell more paper, by claiming that xerox machines, and using fax machines instead of post office, would "save paper" (actually intended to "save paper industry") Sometimes, it was non-simultaneously interactive, using a device called a TTY. You typed in a command, and it did it, and then it typed its answer. PI SYNTAX ERROR PRINT PI 0 PRINT 2 + 2 4 or DOWN YOU DON'T FIT THROUGH A TWO INCH SLIT and N YOU ARE IN A MAZE OF TWISTY LITTLE PASSAGES ALL ALIKE Sometimes, it was printed reports. A thick fan-fold pile of continuous form paper that listed all of your SYNTAX ERRORs Sometimes, it was special forms (also fanfold continuous), such as your paycheck. Sometimes, it was a deck of punched cards. (They are "PUNCHED cards", not "PUNCH cards", once there are some holes in 'em - "PUNCH card" can only mean blank cards to feed the PUNCH with). Those went into drawer in a room full of special file cabinets, or into the input of another machine, such as a different machine such as "accounting machine" (which was used as a dedicated printer), or the card reader of another computer. Inter computer communication was handled by a "gofer" carrying, or pushing a cart full of, decks of punch cards. Each deck of cards, if less than 2000 in a box, was inadequately secured with rubber bands and had diagonal lines made with magic markers, to recognize the rearrangements after the deck or box got dropped. That process was later upgraded to "sneaker-net". Sometimes, it was a reel of tape. Used in similar ways to punched cards, except that the storage room was called a "tape library", and other than a tape number, and maybe owner's name, there weren't any diagonal lines across them. There were "tape hangers" that wrapped around the outside of the reel, and small plastic "rubber" rings near the hub called "write rings". The tape drives were the iconic image that filmmakers used instead of computers, which "don't look like a computer". Sometimes, it was a big picture! Take the deck of cards or tape to another machine that was dedicated to operating a "PLODDER". It would be a large table, or a lorge roller (and since late 1960s sometimes a machine that wrote to 16mm or 35mm film!). The plodder moved "pids" (rapidograph like pens) around, responding to commands summarized as N, S, E, W, UP, DOWN (oft subverted into manufacturer proprietary commands). Large libraries of subroutines would convert into those primitives from commands such as LINE, CIRCLE, GRID, PLOT xxx V yyy. Sometimes, the owner of some small machines, or the paid operator of some larger machines, would have a "FRONT PANEL", that was full of blinkenlights. When the operator wasn't feeding the printers (trying to start a new box of paper without turning off the printer), they could stare at those lights. Occasionally, an operator might start screaming or giggling uncontrollably when the computer told them a good joke, such as program counter repeating itself. Sometimes, they controlled dedicated equipment (such as looms, milling machines, spaceships, etc.) RARELY, there was voice output. A quarter of a century ago, I had a friend who used a VOTRAX. She had a laptop with a big gaping hole where a screen had once been. The first email that she sent me (she believed that the proper quoting was "NO QUOTES!"), said: WINDOWS SUCKS MOSAIC SUCKS CAN I BORROW AN AXE? Like her, if you know what you are doing, you do not need a screen. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 10:52:44 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:52:44 -0800 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? > > The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone > know what it is? > > Jim The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa. There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board. Long ugly link: https://books.google.com/books?id=soGti0kvtgwC&pg=RA1-PA71&lpg=RA1-PA71&dq=centram-systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=6Vnr0qZn3W&sig=otazIdpkt4Y5Oyrp9jjKKrv_dq4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHtaP34tbJAhUL9mMKHWnaDYQQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=centram-systems%20inc%20kaypro From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 11:02:22 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:02:22 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <566C531E.7080604@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here > is what in the world did the computers without a screen to > look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and > even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind > of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? Well, in the 1960's lots of companies ran their payroll, billing and general ledger on IBM 1401 and similar machines. IBM sold 12000 of them, and then there were additional partially compatible machines in the same line (1410, 1460). Many 1401's were used in the beginning entirely from cards, or cards and tape, with no disk. Certainly, some people used them for math problems, as well. I know our local phone company had a 1401 in their planning department, and they used it to compile statistical info telling them what equipment they needed to plan in the future. Our University had a 1401 for accounting, and a 7094 for the rest of the University's needs. Then, in 1969 they upgraded the 7094 to a 360/50. None of these machines had "screens". All programming was done on punch cards, most of the data was prepared on punch cards, although some came on tape. Then, if you were a user with privileges, you could get some tiny amount of disk space to hold data for a while. Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface. Later they got some IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, great for quick program editing and submission. Jon From rrissell at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 08:46:51 2015 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:46:51 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> Message-ID: Mike, One of the key manners of getting information processed was batch jobs run by the computer staff. You never see the computer at all. Individual programs (usually one at a time - using the whole machine for one program) were loaded, pointed at input files, run and then unloaded with the output file or a printout as the end result. Some of the batch jobs did such tasks as: Sorting the input file Adding account information to a ledger in a bank Calculating what is going to happen in a simulated physics problem Calculating trajectories of artillery shells Calculating Averages, Means and Standard Deviations of Statistical data Generating form letters based on an input list of names and addresses and printing them out etc. The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source. Any options are read in from the input file or set in the source file. This was often done by preparing stacks of cards with the input or control options and putting them in with the source deck. Then there was a card indicating the end of the source file. Following the source you would find the cards listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts to be added together or sorted. Last you would find a specially punched control card to indicate the end of the batch job card deck. The total amount of CPU time taken to accomplish the batch job would be tracked and printed out for accounting at a rate per CPU second. This rate could vary based on priority or time of day. So it was in your best interest to write efficient programs. Your source and input deck was returned to you in a cardboard tray together with any resultant punched cards, paper tape or printouts (usually on fan-fold paper). If there was an error during the run, any error messages are returned to you for resolution. Error messages were usually in English, but your output could just be a stream of numbers, letters or sometimes a printed out graph or picture, line by line. What the computer did as a job was hopefully something that was not easier done by hand. Robyn ? From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 10:53:37 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 08:53:37 -0800 Subject: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k In-Reply-To: <566BB1C6.2020309@gmail.com> References: <566BB1C6.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C5111.8050201@gmail.com> On 12/11/15 9:33 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 12/11/15 5:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? Here's a visual aid in case >> you're needing further inspiration: >> https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ The >> M2333K is the smaller one on the left with the green and yellow >> lights on. >> I'm booting from rl0, which contains the tuhs 2.9.1 rl02 image I >> wrote with >> vtserver earlier. >> >> I want to use my nice, roomy smd disk so I can pull in all the >> sources and >> recompile stuff and I've managed to get this *so* close to working >> but I'm >> getting >> >> xp0a: hard error bn xxxx cs2=1100 er1=0 >> >> on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800 >> >> This disk was working fine years ago via MSCP attached to the 11/73 >> (before >> I lost the Micro/11 power supply). >> >> Anyway, I referred to >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/emulex/SC2151001-CC_SC21tech_Jan87.pdf >> >> to set the emulation on the Emulex card for two rm03s and they're >> showing >> up in xxdp's zrmlb1 formatter, though they won't format there, >> screensful >> of errors. >> >> I think I set the m2333k to 32 sectors, per this manual: >> http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/chrisq/B03P-4760-0101A_-_M2331,M2333_Micro-Disk_Drives_OEM_Manual.pdf >> >> >> Because XXDP is reputed to be really strict, I figured that was >> normal and >> then tried the Emulex on-board formatting procedure against both xp0 and >> xp4 and they formatted perfectly without error. Guess the Emulex >> on-board >> stuff doesn't bother verifying much? >> >> So I think that maybe I've misunderstood the hard sectoring / sector >> sizing >> thing. Does anyone remember the gist of it and would you be able to >> describe? Do you see any other mistakes? >> >> thx >> jake >> > > I'm not an expert with SMD drives and I've never used your particular > controller (I have a slightly newer Emulex in my 11/44) but here's a > couple of things I noted while leafing through the SC21 manual you > linked: > > 1.) The SC21's format does *no* verification at all. It lays down an > initial format and that's it. It doesn't create the bad-block list > (more on that later). > 2.) Section 6 of the manual lists a set of modifications (patches) > that need to be made to XXDP diagnostics in order for them to work > properly with the SC21. This includes the ZRMAC0 formatter form > RM02/RM03. You'll likely need to apply them; hopefully you can find > the required versions to hack... > 3.) In addition to setting the sector size/sector count on the > Fujitsu, did you also configure the SC21 for the appropriate drive? > (see Appendix A) I don't see an M2333 listed there specifically, but > there might be something with a similar (or identical) geometry you > can use instead. > > Regarding the bad-block list: You are going to need this to be > generated properly, and the only way to do that is to run the > appropriate XXDP formatter and exercisers. If you have the bad block > list for the drive, hopefully one of the diags will let you enter it, > otherwise I suggest running *many* passes of the exercisers until they > stop finding bad blocks. > > After you have that step done, you will need to have a 2.9.1BSD kernel > that's been compiled with bad block support, otherwise BSD will simply > ignore bad sectors and assume the whole disk is good -- which will > cause bad things to happen as soon as something is written over a bad > sector. > > (Apologies if any of the above is already old-hat; just trying to > cover all the bases I know of...) > > - Josh > > I'll also add that in order to create a filesystem on the new disk using mkfs, you'll need to have run the 2.9BSD 'disklabel' program on it to create the disk label (partition map). You can do this via vtserver, it's covered in the manual. Obviously this can only happen after you've managed to format/exercise the disk :). - Josh From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 11:06:01 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:06:01 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 08:18 AM, Tulsamike3434 at gmail.com wrote: > > So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? You COULD read the holes, if you really HAD to. Keypunches printed the alphanumeric form on the top edge of the cards. if you punched a deck of cards on the CPU's card punch, there was no printing. If it was an "object deck" ie. binary code, you would never "interpret" the deck. But, if it had something that might be human readable, there was a machine called an interpreter, and it would type the symbols on the top of the card for you. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 11:07:58 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:07:58 -0600 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566C3844.4030109@deltasoft.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20151211184345.03d4f5f0@juno.com> <566C3844.4030109@deltasoft.com> Message-ID: <566C546E.8000900@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 09:07 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > [*] A power outage on Wednesday killed the power supply in > my main mail exchanger that I read email on via Alpine. > F*ck Dell and their proprietary power supplies and > connectors! > > > All my Dell Optiplex boxes (that's the commercial grade models) have standard power connectors. All the Dell boxes do have proprietary shape/size power supplies, but in a pinch you could hang one outside the box. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 12 11:17:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:17:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Tulsamike3434 at gmail.com wrote: > So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did > the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data > on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? Yes. If you dealt with the cards long enough, or consciously tried to, you learned the punch patterns. They were not complicated. or you could make a printout or you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card content on the card. The usual INTERPRETER used a larger font, and only printed 60? of the columns. If you had unusual needs for which columns to print, or wanted to rearrange, etc., then you could program it with a plug-board. You kept some of those plug-boards around for specific tasks. For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) There was also a sb-model of the 029 punch series that was a "punch/interpreter". It could take a card, or a deck thereof, and print the content of the card along the top. It had a significant advantage over the INTERPRETER in that it printed 80 columns, aligned with the columns of punches in the card. On "normal" cards (not round-hole, system3, film-window, etc.), there were 80 columns (numbered 1-80), and 12 rows (X,Y,and 0 through 9). [When I die, bury my remains face down, 9 edge first] Text was encoded with a punch in Y, X, or 0 plus a punch in 1 through 9. Special characters and punctuation were other combinations. Lower case was generally not used. Other punch combinations were possible, and occasionally used, such as raw binary codes. Punching out all punches in a column or columns created a "lace card", which wasn't liked by the reader. "/*" in the first two columns had special meaning for 360 JCL, which required some extra care when attempting C compilers. > on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? Only in the aerospace industry would you find people who spoke in plane english. Everybody else preferred it "plain". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 11:17:32 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:17:32 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing Message-ID: > Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which > were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface. Later they got some > IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an > interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, > great for quick program editing and submission. Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up close and personal. The 1800 actually did have a video option, and yes, you had to provide your own cheap black and white TV. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 12 11:25:29 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:25:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Until the advent of "personal" computers, a computer generally did not have a screen. If you were doing stuff for which a creen would be useful, you used a "peripheral" device, called a "terminal". From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 11:32:22 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:32:22 -0800 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > > > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the > world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about > the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them > but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q07PhW5sCEk A 30 minute film "1963 Timesharing: A Solution to Computer Bottlenecks" -- Charles From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 11:53:57 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:53:57 -0600 Subject: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!! In-Reply-To: <566925B5.9010207@gmail.com> References: <566852FF.4080602@gmail.com> <56689D7E.1000707@gmail.com> <566925B5.9010207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C5F35.7060009@gmail.com> On 12/10/2015 01:11 AM, Mike wrote: > WOW sounds like ya got a good haul hope ya did not have to pay to much! No, I got a good deal, although (unsurprisingly) it just about all needs work. One C64 is healthy, the other one gives a black screen. The Vic printer is completely unresponsive, and the 1541 drive doesn't POST and sits there with both LEDs on and constantly spinning. I'm not too worried about the dead C64 as I already had two working machines: one boxed with PSU, but with a missing keycap, and the other 'loose' with no PSU and a battered case, but with a good keyboard. So I think the plan is to merge parts, giving me three good working systems with PSUs and boxes, and one 'scrap' system with no box or PSU, and a battered case and broken keyboard. I'll probably be looking for a new home for one of the three working systems after that; I like to have a working example + working spare of anything whenever possible, but I really don't need three systems. Fixing the faulty 1541 drive is on the to-do list today if I get time, and then I'll think about tackling the Vic printer (but I expect the ribbon's dried out and replacements are unobtainable anyway, so I'm not worried if there's some major snafu with the electronics/mechanism, it's more of a "hey, that looks cool" piece anyway) Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 12 12:31:50 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:31:50 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is. I took a peek today and found that I've got a couple of AC31200 drives, but no 31600s. Do you think that the 31200 is close enough to your drive? --Chuck From radioengr at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 12:45:43 2015 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:45:43 -0700 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <566C6B57.9090703@gmail.com> On 12/12/2015 6:22 AM, Mike wrote: > > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what > in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I > know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the > hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use > for? Mathematics or? ? ? > I have close friend that related a story to me the other day. In his younger days he worked for a military contractor that manufactured inertial reference systems for military aircraft. They used a bare naked PDP-11 (just lights and switches) as part of final acceptance test. Over the years, he got quite adept and manipulating the switches and reading the lights during the four hour test. One day a government auditor noticed that he was performing the final test impossibly faster than the 'standard' amount of time and concluded that he was not testing the unit per the procedure and that the big defense company was in violation of their government contract. To say this was a *big* deal is an understatement. When he was called to the plant manager's office, he offered to prove that he was following the test procedure to the auditor and anyone else. The first attempt to demonstrate the test procedure was a complete bust. Every time he manipulated the switches or read the lights, the auditor would interrupt him so that he could compare the front panel switches and lights to the test procedure. He could not do the test with the constant interruptions - he'd get lost and confused. Now he was getting a little scared. He finally convinced the auditor to video tape the final test procedure so that he could perform it uninterrupted. He, the plant manager, and the auditor reviewed the video tape - pausing the tape as necessary - and concluded that he actually did perform the test procedure as required. He mentioned that manipulating the switches was committed to muscle memory and it was like playing the piano. As a reward for his efficiency, the auditor attempted to reduce the 'standard' amount of time for the product - thus reducing the amount of money that the government would pay the contractor for the service. After all, if he could perform the test that fast - anybody could... Rob Doyle From simski at dds.nl Sat Dec 12 12:57:42 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:57:42 +0100 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C6E26.7010208@dds.nl> /dev/null again... On 11-12-15 19:33, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 December 2015 at 18:07, tony duell wrote: >> If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and >> start typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, but >> that is not my problem! > > > Strongly agree. Adrian, if your email client doesn't let you > bottom-quote properly, it's broken. > > The only desktop client I've seen that is so completely broken is MS Outlook. > -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 13:43:40 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:43:40 -0800 Subject: CREEPYPASTA In-Reply-To: <164E2656-F4F4-4B8B-8408-54770AABFBA5@gmail.com> References: <20151210134556.D303E18C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <164E2656-F4F4-4B8B-8408-54770AABFBA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jay West- for the love of all that is vintage computing, please ban this guy. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:13 AM, Mike wrote: > > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > >> From: Pontus Pihlgren > > > >> Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two > >> PDP-12s!! > > > >> It still gives me the chills. > > > > I can top that. Someone told me they were going to start a thread about > > top-posting on a list supposedly about vintage computers. I'm still > > shaking. > > > > Noel > > Have any of you read "PENPAL" one of the best! > > http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIhLDKrePPY > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan at 757.org Sat Dec 12 14:00:08 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:00:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> References: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: > If I would have known!!! WOW I would have just read more posts before I > posted my first post look at this mess... There is no reason for people > to be rude or disrespectful to new people like myself. I have never > joined a place like this I know now that it has been said 1000000000000 > times to scroll down and put my text there all I wanted to do was talk > about my new Commodore 64's. Can we do that? I make a post about > creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new people > to join? I think I can learn a lot from here that's all I want to do! > There are many Computer geniuses on here that I can learn a lot from > that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's and I collect > Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the Commodore 64? Much love for the plastic micros from the 80s, at least with me! Some people are into the larger DIGITAL Equipment Corp stuff (PDPs, Vaxes) and other large systems. I used to be big into Unix workstation hardware, including big ones so went up through lots of them until I hit the mountaintop with Cray stuff. It's so heavy and no permanant place for it so these days I prefer it when I can put 3 systems into a plastic tub. I'm involved with a music and gaming festival (the music is mostly video game music) and we've spawned a computer museum as a come-back side project. This year I think there was about 32 to 34 systems out which include classic Macintosh stuff (Something personally I'm not a fan of outside of the case designs), a NeXT, some Atari ST, Atari 8 bit, Color Computer 2 or 3, Apple II, Apple IIGS, 8088 IBM PC, 80286, 80386, 80486. I think Mike had 2 of the later PCs (the 486es) on thinnet running Doom over IPX/SPX. Next year the computer museum space is around 3000 square feet and I think they're going to bring more like 100 to 120 machines (not sure.) I've offered them my Octane, Indigo, NeXT, Sun Voyager, Atari Mega 2, Atari 520ST (need a mouse), Atari TT030 (need a mouse), Amiga 500, (probably hold bcak Amiga 600 it's so small it makes me nervous), C64, Dolch PAC luggable PC w/ Gravis Ultrasound, and some other stuff. Gave away the Model 4 TRS-80 but it should be coming. They've got a lot of the plastic microcomputer stuff covered until you hit fringe stuff like Mattel Aquarius and import machines. I did meet locals that import Russian and other MSX clones but don't have solid enough contact information to get any of it (might need to run an inverter to generate 50hz power and PAL TVs for that stuff.) Friends have all sorts of stuff, and some things might be coming like a X68000 (for the Castlevania fans :-) and MSX and other fun things. Anyways, where was I. Oh yea. Much love for the Micros, but different people came up at different times. My only CPM box is a beautiful IMSAI 8080 -- which I keep covered. Still building the S100 CF card. Check out the C64 SD adapters or the XA1541 if you haven't. -- Ethan O'Toole From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 12 14:08:03 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:08:03 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <083301d13467$4d9ee5b0$e8dcb110$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <083301d13467$4d9ee5b0$e8dcb110$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C7EA3.2010708@sbcglobal.net> On 12/11/2015 05:57 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > , Dave G4UGM >> wrote: >>> >> However, I used to use and like Thunderbird and still do on Linux >> and Mac. > > Thunderbird is a PITA. In order to get buttons that let you go to the > next message you need several plug-ins... Uh, no you don't. RIght-click n the toolbar, select Customize. Get the buttons you want. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From simski at dds.nl Sat Dec 12 13:06:52 2015 From: simski at dds.nl (simon) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 20:06:52 +0100 Subject: Bye for now... was: Message-ID: <566C704C.9030104@dds.nl> Hi all. Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of a list every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like Whatsapp and Facebook more and more. It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a shame. It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". I am truly not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer blabla. Bye -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl From rickb at bensene.com Sat Dec 12 13:22:16 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 11:22:16 -0800 Subject: Bye for now... was: References: <566C704C.9030104@dds.nl> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029E72@mail.bensene.com> Simon Claessen wrote: > > Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of a list > every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like Whatsapp and > Facebook more and more. > > It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a shame. > It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". I am truly > not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer blabla. > It is sad that Simon has decided to leave the list. I am so tempted to do the same thing as Simon...say goodbye to this list because of all of the worthless , off-topic cruft that is posted here, especially lately. However, I've been a member of this list for a long time, and I'm so hoping that perhaps by some miracle this current trend towards topics non-sequitur will abate. One can hope. -Rick Bensene From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 12 14:08:58 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:08:58 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <083401d13467$67bf4840$373dd8c0$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> <083401d13467$67bf4840$373dd8c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566C7EDA.3090001@sbcglobal.net> On 12/11/2015 05:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wulfman >> Sent: 11 December 2015 19:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: TOP POSTING >> >> Thunderbird has calendars now. >> > > Only with more plug-ins.... > You're not running current Thunderbird, are you? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Dec 12 14:23:23 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:23:23 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151212212323.Horde.Ck2m9WTg5hxiBtNVJf4cw9A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is. > > I took a peek today and found that I've got a couple of AC31200 > drives, but no 31600s. Do you think that the 31200 is close enough > to your drive? Probably yes - has it a blue line in its label? Mine: http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine. From ben at bensinclair.com Sat Dec 12 14:30:31 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:30:31 -0600 Subject: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151208140916.1D39718C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'm also interested if you have any information about what the system was doing Noel! Was it in use until just recently? It's always fun to hear about older systems that are still being used for production work. On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 8:09 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960, > running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the > value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it > out - and if the latter, how to break it up? > > (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by > a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.) > > So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to > the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory > separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is > the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think. > > Thanks for any insights! > > Noel -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 12 15:09:00 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:09:00 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151212212323.Horde.Ck2m9WTg5hxiBtNVJf4cw9A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> <20151212212323.Horde.Ck2m9WTg5hxiBtNVJf4cw9A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566C8CEC.7020307@sydex.com> On 12/12/2015 12:23 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg > http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg > > I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine. > Nope--green line and the PCB doesn't look like yours. I have an orange 22500 and that, again, uses a different PCB. Most of my other drives in this storage range are Maxtors and Seagates. BTW, are you using the IDE interrupt to determine the transition between command and data phases? --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 15:26:23 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:26:23 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566C90FF.90703@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 11:17 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which >> were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface. Later they got some >> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >> great for quick program editing and submission. > Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe > it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up > close and personal. > > Yes, they were hideous hacks of a cheap TV set. The VHF tuner was still in there, as it was needed to complete the series filament chain. They had 5 tubes in series, with 26-volt filaments, running off 120 V AC. I'm PRETTY sure the brand was Zenith, but this is from about a 43-year old memory of pulling the cover off one. All it had was a keypunch-style keyboard and the TV, all the electronics were in the machine room. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 12 15:35:26 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 16:35:26 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <566C90FF.90703@pico-systems.com> References: <566C90FF.90703@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <6FE3796F-6B3D-45E6-BEBF-517AF0847614@comcast.net> > On Dec 12, 2015, at 4:26 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 12/12/2015 11:17 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which >>> were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface. Later they got some >>> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >>> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >>> great for quick program editing and submission. >> Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe >> it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up >> close and personal. >> >> > Yes, they were hideous hacks of a cheap TV set. The VHF tuner was still in there, as it was needed to complete the series filament chain. They had 5 tubes in series, with 26-volt filaments, running off 120 V AC. I'm PRETTY sure the brand was Zenith, but this is from about a 43-year old memory of pulling the cover off one. All it had was a keypunch-style keyboard and the TV, all the electronics were in the machine room. I thought 2260s had a green CRT. paul From doug at doughq.com Sat Dec 12 16:01:40 2015 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 09:01:40 +1100 Subject: Bye for now... was: In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029E72@mail.bensene.com> References: <566C704C.9030104@dds.nl> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029E72@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: I've been a member of this list for many years. Sometimes people are on topic. Sometimes they are not. But the list remains a useful source of infirmation and trivia alike. I understand where the key is, and what its function is. I have found that judicious use can increase my happyness level. That way, I can still get information that is interesting to me while reducing my frustration. I also use modern access methods, so I'm unphased about posting styles. I save the teletype paper for really important things like playing SPACWR... this glass teletype thing may well take off some day. .. At least this list is more civil than comp.lang.forth... thats full of cranky people. Just my $0.02. Use or as you see fit. Doug. On 13 December 2015 6:22:16 am AEDT, Rick Bensene wrote: >Simon Claessen wrote: >> >> Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of >a list >> every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like >Whatsapp and >> Facebook more and more. >> >> It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a >shame. >> It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". >I am truly >> not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer >blabla. >> >It is sad that Simon has decided to leave the list. > >I am so tempted to do the same thing as Simon...say goodbye to this >list because of all of the worthless , off-topic cruft that is posted >here, especially lately. > >However, I've been a member of this list for a long time, and I'm so >hoping that perhaps by some miracle this current trend towards topics >non-sequitur will abate. One can hope. > >-Rick Bensene -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 17:16:39 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:16:39 -0000 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566C7EDA.3090001@sbcglobal.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> <083401d13467$67bf4840$373dd8c0$@gmail.com> <566C7EDA.3090001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <020001d13533$2bec3680$83c4a380$@gmail.com> > >> Thunderbird has calendars now. > >> > > > > Only with more plug-ins.... > > > > You're not running current Thunderbird, are you? I am, and I see that as from V38 (basically the current version) the calendar add-on is bundled with Thunderbird BUT ITS STILL AN ADDON THAT HAS TO BE SEPARATELY ENABLED and Configured. I can't some much searching find any info on using Lightening either with live.com or google calendars. Outlook syncs automatically with live.com calendars, and it took 5 minutes of googling to get it to display my live google calendar. > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. From tonypf11 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 17:17:46 2015 From: tonypf11 at gmail.com (Tony) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:17:46 -0500 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566C7EDA.3090001@sbcglobal.net> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <201512100132.UAA00396@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <06f301d13444$5325c620$f9715260$@gmail.com> <566B233E.6010104@wulfman.com> <083401d13467$67bf4840$373dd8c0$@gmail.com> <566C7EDA.3090001@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <566CAB1A.2040108@gmail.com> I am using Thunderbird 38.4.0 on a couple of PC's. I use Google calendar for scheduling. Tony Pflum On 12/12/2015 3:08 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 12/11/2015 05:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> wulfman >>> Sent: 11 December 2015 19:26 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: TOP POSTING >>> >>> Thunderbird has calendars now. >>> >> >> Only with more plug-ins.... >> > > You're not running current Thunderbird, are you? > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Dec 12 17:38:13 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 00:38:13 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <566C8CEC.7020307@sydex.com> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> <20151212212323.Horde.Ck2m9WTg5hxiBtNVJf4cw9A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C8CEC.7020307@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151213003813.Horde.U2wPbn2xOql9r-cwjt5Gtzg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2015 12:23 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg >> http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg >> >> I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine. >> > > > Nope--green line and the PCB doesn't look like yours. I have an > orange 22500 and that, again, uses a different PCB. Most of my > other drives in this storage range are Maxtors and Seagates. > > BTW, are you using the IDE interrupt to determine the transition > between command and data phases? No, I'm only polling the regular status register. The Interrupt pins are not connected. My application is single threaded anyway so polling is fine for me - I would wait anyhow until the interrupt occured. I once tried to switch to the alternate status register once completly, but under some circumstances I'm getting not the expected data out of it. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:11:02 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:11:02 -0600 Subject: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? Mike, here's another piece of mailing list netiquette that I think has been mentioned recently but only briefly: when you start a new topic, please do so by sending a brand-new email to cctalk at classiccmp.org instead of replying to an existing message. Your question about what earlier computers were like was a good one that brought up some interesting responses, but I fear those messages got ignored by people because they were still shown as replies to this neverending top posting thread (most of which anyone would be 100% justified in throwing in the trash without reading). Sending a new email to start threads not only gives you a good chance to write a subject line that actually describes what you're saying, but it causes decent mail clients to not link the message with earlier ones on another topic. Different email readers do that in different ways -- some just treat any messages with the same subject line as a thread, while some (like mutt, which I use) are happy to ignore subject lines and just go by the reference field in the emails' headers (a field which is often hidden from view). So, by all means, start new discussions. But make sure they're treated as new by emailing cctalk at classiccmp.org directly instead of replying. -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:13:23 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:13:23 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card > content on the card. [snip] > For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", > just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it actually ran the program. -- Eric Christopherson From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:15:25 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:15:25 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151213001525.GE90636@gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Robert Rissell wrote: > The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded > header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards > such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source. [snip] > Following the source you would find the cards > listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts > to be added > together or sorted. So you could have the same batch job compile AND run the program? That kind of surprises me. Must have saved a lot of time that way. -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 12 18:45:39 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 16:45:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card >> content on the card. > [snip] >> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", >> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to > say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a > program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it > actually ran the program. Yes, I was deliberately conflating two disparate meanings of the word. When a friend was discussing compilers V interpreters, I pointed to the plug-board, and said, "SEE! There IS a COBOL interpreter!" The board was itself not a COBOL interpreter, nor even intended to be labelled as such. The ladelling was intended to identify that it was a plug-board FOR the Interpreter (not BEING an interpeter), and that it was plug-wire programmed for doing decks of cards containing COBOL code. "COBOL" and "INTERPRETER" should have been two separate labels. I kept the board around for years, just for the sake of making that ridiculous misinterpretation. I don't know where it is now. After I retired (after 30 years), I took too long to move my stuff out, and about a week later found that a college administrator had ordered the remaining contents of my office dumpstered, rather than wait an additional week for me to finish the task. (They were fully aware of my planned schedule, and had implied that my timeframe was acceptable) I had also been promised verbally a month to forward content from my email account there, notify contacts, etc. Verbal promises, particularly from college administrators, are not worth the paper they are printed on. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 18:53:40 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 16:53:40 -0800 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card >>> content on the card. >>> >> [snip] >> >>> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", >>> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) >>> >> > On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > >> Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to >> say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a >> program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it >> actually ran the program. >> > > Yes, I was deliberately conflating two disparate meanings of the word. > When a friend was discussing compilers V interpreters, I pointed to the > plug-board, and said, "SEE! There IS a COBOL interpreter!" > > The board was itself not a COBOL interpreter, nor even intended to be > labelled as such. The ladelling was intended to identify that it was a > plug-board FOR the Interpreter (not BEING an interpeter), and that it was > plug-wire programmed for doing decks of cards containing COBOL code. > "COBOL" and "INTERPRETER" should have been two separate labels. I kept the > board around for years, just for the sake of making that ridiculous > misinterpretation. > > > The plug board could control which columns of the punch card appeared in which columns of the printout; it served as a simple FORMAT program. The COBOL interpreter plugboard rearranged the COBOL source on the punch card to a more readable style on the printer. -- Charles From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 19:01:20 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:01:20 -0600 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults Message-ID: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> I have four 1541's now, two of which seem to init OK, and two of which sit there with the drive spindle constantly spinning and the access LEDs lit, the latter behavior which I believe indicates a multitude of possible microcontroller-related faults... I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips for what's best to try next? I read somewhere that ROM faults aren't unheard of, ditto with 6522 VIA failures. Also the 74ls14 at UA1 (particularly if someone's unplugged the drive from the host with power on), but I think that affects CPU reset, which appears to be working in my units. (is the firmware interchangeable between different board revisions? i.e. can I swap in firmware from one of the drives that appear to init OK to rule that out as a fault, or do I have to worry about matching PCB revisions?) Also, has there been a worse external drive in the history of floppy storage? Slow, complicated, expensive and unreliable seems to have most bases covered ;-) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 12 19:08:15 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:08:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>>> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", >>>> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) notice the "emoticon" at the end of my original post. I was trying to convey knowledge of the misinterpretation, and the humor of it. On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Charles Anthony wrote: > The plug board could control which columns of the punch card appeared in > which columns of the printout; it served as a simple FORMAT program. The > COBOL interpreter plugboard rearranged the COBOL source on the punch card > to a more readable style on the printer. Exactly. That's why there was a plug-board kept around on a shelf preprogrammed for the desired formatting for COBOL programs. However, being for an "INTERPRETER", not a "407 ACCOUNTING MACHINE" (used for generating printouts from decks of cards), the plug-board controlled the column positions where the material was printed on the card, not printout. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 12 19:19:16 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:19:16 -0800 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <566CC794.3030206@deltasoft.com> On 12/12/2015 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? > > The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does > anyone know what it is? I'm not sure what the board is, but it's pretty new with a 1993 copyright date on it. The board appears to be a Kaypro 10 board - the big give-away is the fully populated 50 pin connector & support logic along the right edge of the board. g. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 12 19:19:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:19:26 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151213003813.Horde.U2wPbn2xOql9r-cwjt5Gtzg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B633E.8060603@sydex.com> <20151212013553.Horde.wOuf8dKhRf3qdegaIDanY9E@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C6816.5050609@sydex.com> <20151212212323.Horde.Ck2m9WTg5hxiBtNVJf4cw9A@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566C8CEC.7020307@sydex.com> <20151213003813.Horde.U2wPbn2xOql9r-cwjt5Gtzg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <566CC79E.2070709@sydex.com> On 12/12/2015 03:38 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > No, I'm only polling the regular status register. The Interrupt pins > are not connected. My application is single threaded anyway so > polling is fine for me - I would wait anyhow until the interrupt > occured. Hmmm, that could be the issue. I remember (and even have code IF-ed out) to do ATA sans interrupt and it would run into problems. I found that waiting for the interrupt to hit fixed the instability. Granted, this was in simple x86 code, but if I didn't have to put the ISR code in, I wouldn't have done it--as it it makes things a bit more complicated. FWIW, I can pass you the code I was using circa 1999. It might shed some illumination. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Dec 12 19:20:15 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:20:15 -0800 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <566CC7CF.1010700@deltasoft.com> On 12/12/2015 8:52 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? >> >> The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone >> know what it is? >> >> Jim > > The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa. > > There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of > Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board. Looks like I mis-read the date - it is 1983, not 1993. :) g. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 12 19:20:53 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 17:20:53 -0800 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <20151213001525.GE90636@gmail.com> References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001525.GE90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61075477-0C6B-4A74-B1E7-39AE870FB455@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-12, at 4:15 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Robert Rissell wrote: >> The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded >> header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards >> such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source. > [snip] >> Following the source you would find the cards >> listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts >> to be added >> together or sorted. > > So you could have the same batch job compile AND run the program? That > kind of surprises me. Must have saved a lot of time that way. I entered university on the tail end of the batch era, and for student coursework that was the way it worked: job control cards, source, data. Compile, list, execute, program-output all in one submission. (This was under MTS, which despite being a timesharing system (Michigan Terminal System), still had support for batch.) The good thing about batch is there was always the incentive to get your entire program right the first time. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 19:31:39 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 19:31:39 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151213013138.GA47953@gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>>For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", > >>>>just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) > > notice the "emoticon" at the end of my original post. I was trying to > convey knowledge of the misinterpretation, and the humor of it. To me, that's a hint at best. If it had been a winking face, I would have been pretty confident that humor or irony was intended; simple smiling emoticons don't indicate irony to me. -- Eric Christopherson From mike at fenz.net Sat Dec 12 20:27:08 2015 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:27:08 +1300 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566CD77C.9030805@fenz.net> On 13/12/2015 2:01 p.m., Jules Richardson wrote: > I have four 1541's now, two of which seem to init OK, and two of which > sit there with the drive spindle constantly spinning and the access > LEDs lit, the latter behavior which I believe indicates a multitude of > possible microcontroller-related faults... > I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and > +5 rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have > any tips for what's best to try next? Locked on LEDs and spindle motor would suggest VIA to me, though it's been many years since I've looked at one. First thing I'd check is that there's activity on the address/data buses. If things are going on, and there are 6522s at hand, I'd try a quick swap. > I read somewhere that ROM faults aren't unheard of, ditto with 6522 > VIA failures. Also the 74ls14 at UA1 (particularly if someone's > unplugged the drive from the host with power on), but I think that > affects CPU reset, which appears to be working in my units. Can you swap ROMs in from one of the booting drives? Worth a go, though I've never seen a ROM failure. > (is the firmware interchangeable between different board revisions? > i.e. can I swap in firmware from one of the drives that appear to init > OK to rule that out as a fault, or do I have to worry about matching > PCB revisions?) I wouldn't have thought it'd matter, though maybe the 1541 II was different enough. > Also, has there been a worse external drive in the history of floppy > storage? Slow, complicated, expensive and unreliable seems to have > most bases covered ;-) I sort of agree, though I have to say that of my pile of about 30 1541s and 1541 IIs, all but two ran up fine on first test, after having been in storage for 25 years. One had a bad 6522, and the other had an alignment issue. They were all still amazingly slow though! Cheers, Mike From dave at 661.org Sat Dec 12 20:58:22 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 18:58:22 -0800 Subject: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <56697399.5030608@btinternet.com> References: <01PU43M592UQ00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <56697399.5030608@btinternet.com> Message-ID: When I post from home, I usually have a sig that refers to top posting fouling the order in which people normally read text. Regarding Android, I was talking about a specific mail client that makes it easy to bottom-post. On December 10, 2015 4:44:09 AM PST, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Er nope it just refers to android > >R > > >On 10/12/2015 12:28, Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about. >>> The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants. >>> In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same >with >>> the list of messages >>> >>> Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP. etc mail >systems. >>> I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain >>> >> The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's >postings is about >> the best and most succinct I've seen. >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From echristopherson at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:13:41 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:13:41 -0600 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line Message-ID: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): > On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote: > >The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the > >world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about > >the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them > >but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? [snip] > Later they got some > IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an > interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, > great for quick program editing and submission. I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots of questions: 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic signal was sent out to the terminals? 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay line would weaken over time. How was it refreshed? 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this depend on the number of connected terminals? -- Eric Christopherson From bobvines00 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 19:03:55 2015 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 20:03:55 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Battery Location/Removal Question Message-ID: Since I've fallen _way_ behind in reading my email (I'm reading July 2015's messages now), I've just recently read a thread where removing the batteries from VAX 4000-xxx systems was discussed and recommended. Since I didn't get _any_ documentation when I rescued my VAX 4000-200 system, which module(s) contain batteries that I should remove for safety? Or can you recommend the appropriate manual(s) at sites like Bitsavers that I download & study to locate to the batteries to remove before they leak and cause corrosion issues? Hopefully I don't already have a big mess to clean up! Thanks, Bob From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 19:11:13 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 20:11:13 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-200 Battery Location/Removal Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2015 8:04 PM, "Bob Vines" wrote: > > Since I've fallen _way_ behind in reading my email (I'm reading July 2015's > messages now), I've just recently read a thread where removing the > batteries from VAX 4000-xxx systems was discussed and recommended. > > Since I didn't get _any_ documentation when I rescued my VAX 4000-200 > system, which module(s) contain batteries that I should remove for safety? > Or can you recommend the appropriate manual(s) at sites like Bitsavers that > I download & study to locate to the batteries to remove before they leak > and cause corrosion issues? > > Hopefully I don't already have a big mess to clean up! > > > Thanks, > > Bob http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=608 Pretty much covers it, see near bottom of thread for photos Bill From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:35:30 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:35:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 December 2015 at 22:13, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they > used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots > of questions: > > 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller > actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or > were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic > signal was sent out to the terminals? > The delay lines were only within the 2848 control unit. From the descriptions by others on the list, the 2260 displays were completely dumb, and would display whatever was sent to them if I'm reading things correctly. > 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay line would > weaken over time. How was it refreshed? > Once the signal reached the end of the delay line it was sensed, regenerated and put back into the delay line, while also being converted to scanlines to be sent to the 2260. Similar to the mercury delay line memories of older machines like the UNIVAC, or EDSAC. Though the 2848's delay lines were wire based not long mercury tanks. > 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this depend on the > number of connected terminals? > You can most likely find that information in a manual. I think that the A27-2700 manual will have it, located on BitSavers, of course: Not an expert, just someone with some itnerest in it. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:37:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:37:14 -0500 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: The IBM 2848, the control unit for the 2260 terminals, contained mercury (!) delay line for the video memory. There may have been some compensation for the transmission to the terminal, but I have have not seen the technical details - I think it was not a concern, probably. Line loss is really not a problem. It might have been if the lines were miles long, but in typical installations, that was not anywhere near a problem. As for speed - not an issue for basically baseband video. -- Will On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): >> On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote: >> >The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the >> >world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about >> >the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them >> >but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? > [snip] >> Later they got some >> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >> great for quick program editing and submission. > > I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they > used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots > of questions: > > 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller > actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or > were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic > signal was sent out to the terminals? > > 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay line would > weaken over time. How was it refreshed? > > 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this depend on the > number of connected terminals? > > -- > Eric Christopherson From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 12 21:41:53 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 03:41:53 +0000 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Christopherson Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 7:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): > On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote: > >The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the > >world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about > >the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them > >but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? [snip] > Later they got some > IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an > interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, > great for quick program editing and submission. I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots of questions: 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic signal was sent out to the terminals? 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay line would weaken over time. How was it refreshed? 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this depend on the number of connected terminals? -- Eric Christopherson I would assume it makes no sense to have it in the cable. It is acoustic not electronic. Typically it would be a loop. Data and possibly clock goes in one end. At the other end would be a preamp and recovery circuit. It would then be gated with possible new updated data and sent down the delay line again. Tinker Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 13 00:09:58 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:09:58 -0800 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8A2367BE-EADB-4572-B8E3-ECAAF5E81179@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-12, at 7:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): >> >> Later they got some >> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >> great for quick program editing and submission. > > I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they > used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots > of questions: > > 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller > actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or > were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic > signal was sent out to the terminals? The delay lines for the 2260 systems were magnetostrictive (not mercury) acoustic delay lines, contained in the controller. Magnetostrictive delay lines were a somewhat common memory technique in the 60s, they were used in other early CRT display terminals and in some electronic calculators of the period. They were an improvement over the mercury delay lines of the first stored-program computers, easier to work with and not as temperamental. Speaking generally of the technique (I never worked on a 2848 controller, I have worked on them in calculators): Magnetostriction is a characteristic of some materials in which the material will physically expand or contract slightly in response to an applied magnetic field. Thus a solenoid with a core of magnetostrictive material going through it acts as a transducer of electrical energy to or from mechanical (acoustic) energy. IIRC, nickel or a nickel alloy was the commonly-used magnetostrictive material. Generated acoustic pulses are entered into one end of the delay medium (a metallic wire line) to be picked up at the other end by another transducer, so converted back to electrical energy, electrically amplified and restored to account for losses and distortion from the traverse of the delay medium, changed as appropriate (read/write operations) and re-entered into the delay medium. Some implementations sent the acoustic pulses longitudinally through the delay wire (expansion/contraction or push/pull of the wire), some sent them torsionally (twisting/rotating the wire). The whole point of course, is the much slower speed of acoustic pulses relative to electrical pulses results in a much longer latency through a delay medium of a given length and hence more (time for) storage. The delay wire is formed into a spiral/coil loop for compactness. If you're interested in some specifications and physical data of a 1960s magnetostrictive memory, in this instance in a calculator, see the commentary part way down the page here, beside the picture of the coiled delay line: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Sony2500.html These are from measurements and calculations I made on that delay line. Or in summary: the acoustic pulses travel at 8140 Km/h, taking 1.6 mS to traverse a delay wire 3.62 m long, providing storage for 1024 bits, each bit occupying about 3.5 mm in the line. This calculator uses longitudinal pulses, while the 2260/2848 apparently uses torsional pulses. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 13 01:40:01 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 07:40:01 -0000 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller Message-ID: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> I picked up some Qbus cards yesterday. They seem to be board set for a MicroVAX II. However, one of the cards was, to me at least, a bit unusual. It was made by a company called Webster, and it appears to be a controller for SMD disks. I was not familiar with SMD disks and had to look them up. I suspect this might be a little out of the ordinary, and, possibly, an odd combination for a small Qbus system to access such a physically large type of disk. Were MicroVAX IIs used much with such disks? Is this a bit of an unusual find? Regards Rob From dave at 661.org Sun Dec 13 02:02:34 2015 From: dave at 661.org (dave at 661.org) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 08:02:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Making a serial board for Briel Altair Micro Message-ID: After fiddling around with my Briel Altair Micro, I've come to desire more than just the console serial port. To that end, I read up on the 16550A UART, line drivers, line receivers, and schematics for other implementations of serial ports. I came up with this: http://661.org/tmp/altairmicro-serial.pdf How close am I to this design making sense and working? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 13 02:28:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 00:28:27 -0800 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566D2C2B.8030507@sydex.com> On 12/12/2015 07:41 PM, dwight wrote: > I would assume it makes no sense to have it in the cable. It is > acoustic not electronic. Typically it would be a loop. Data and > possibly clock goes in one end. As a practical example, consider the Packard-Bell 250 computer. No, not the Packard-Bell PC of the Israeli tank driver and his buddies, but the real Packard Bell, maker of consumer radio and TV gear and aerospace electronics. Since the thing could run from an ordinary wall outlet (something around 1200W) and used only about 300 transistors (and lots of diodes), it's pretty amazing for a 1961 22-bit minicomputer. It used magnetostrictive delay line memory, which is what I'd have thought that the 2260 would have used. Oh well, I guess IBM did things their way... --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 05:18:45 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 00:18:45 +1300 Subject: Non-standard parallel port on Selectric I/O? Message-ID: I have what was once an IBM 2970 Reservation Terminal. Some time in the late 1970s. an outfit called 'Western I/O' got hold of a bunch of these, including mine, ripped out all the IBM electronic guts (but left their electromechanical bits - solenoids and contacts) and installed their own boards, and sold them to the home-brew computer folks of that day - presumably hung off contemporary Altair and Imsai machines etc. They made two versions. One was a fancy full-blown terminal with a 6800 microprocessor, adjustable baud rates, standard RS232 port etc. I'd really like to get hold of one of these if anyone has one gathering dust btw... The other one was a very dumb print-only versions. According to contemporary ads, it has: "? Printer-only model availability w/parallel ASCII interface." "The Printer Terminal IBM Selectrics are known for their well-defined, high-quality printed characters and easy-to- change elements. An ideal choice for text processing, highly-legible source listings and personal or business correspondence. And it's easy to connect to home or business computer. Just plug in 115 Vac, hook up the ASCII printer port and let 'ergo." That is ALL the documentation I have on this thing! The 'parallel ASCII interface' is implemented as a DB25 female on the rear of the Selectric. It *looks* exactly like a parallel port on a PC. So I hoped it would use standard parallel port pinouts and a straight-through ribbon cable would do it. No such luck. I don't have a parallel port analyzer, but I have lots of serial port analyzers, including ones with an LED per line, all 25 lines. So that is an improvised window into what's happening. For starters. when I operate the 'paper out' switch, I can see a line going high/low corresponding to switch position - but it's pin 19 on the DB25 connector, which should be ground on a standard parallel port! 'Paper out' should be on pin 12. So it's clearly not standard... Now I can start tracing pins on the interface back to lines on the PCBs, and try to figure what they do. At least I can relatively quickly eliminate those that aren't used, or are ground plane. But, question: back in the day, was there *another* 'standard' for parallel port pinouts? Used on S100 bus PIO etc. cards, the kind of thing this product was intended to be used with? I've found Googling on such data to be remarkably unproductive... any help out there? Mike From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 13 05:21:18 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:21:18 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 11 December 2015 01:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > No leaking ChemiCon SXF-series capacitors inside? They seem to suffer > from some kind of design or manufacturing defect and consequently the > electrolyte gets through the seal eventually even in parts never used. A > number of DEC PSUs have these capacitors, including the H7874 PSU which > BA430/BA440 VAX 4000 cabinets use. Just opened it up and there are indeed leaking caps, the brown ones. There is also a strange deposit on a couple of screws (picture here: http://1drv.ms/1micVN7), but the screws are nowhere near the leaking capacitors. Any thoughts on that? > Unfortunately replacing the parts is not easy as heatsinks block access to the > soldering pads and you need to desolder main rectifiers first to gain access. > You need to clean any electrolyte spills too as they will cause corrosion and > shorts. Yes, I have had one of these PSUs apart before and know how horrible it is to get at these parts. I will however go ahead and replace these caps. > > I observed similar symptoms with the failed PSU as you do: it started up > briefly, enough for diagnostic output to start coming from the system > through the console port, and then within a couple of seconds the PSU shut > down. I don't have an easy way to apply test loads to all the outputs at the same time. Is it possible to remove the final output boards for each "half" of the output and test one at a time without causing the PSU to shut down? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 13 09:22:42 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:22:42 +0000 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 > rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips > for what's best to try next? Didn't at least some versions use 2114 RAM chips? If so, then check/change those first -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 09:48:19 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 09:48:19 -0600 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: <566CD77C.9030805@fenz.net> References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> <566CD77C.9030805@fenz.net> Message-ID: <566D9343.5020104@gmail.com> On 12/12/2015 08:27 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Locked on LEDs and spindle motor would suggest VIA to me, though it's been > many years since I've looked at one. First thing I'd check is that there's > activity on the address/data buses. I don't have a lot of test gear, but I suppose poking at A0 with my DMM on frequency setting should give a sign of whether anything's going on... > If things are going on, and there are 6522s at hand, I'd try a quick swap. I can certainly borrow ones from one of the good drives - I suppose given that the PSU rails are OK, it's unlikely that there's anything in the faulty drives that will damage them. >> I read somewhere that ROM faults aren't unheard of, ditto with 6522 VIA >> failures. Also the 74ls14 at UA1 (particularly if someone's unplugged the >> drive from the host with power on), but I think that affects CPU reset, >> which appears to be working in my units. > > Can you swap ROMs in from one of the booting drives? Worth a go, though > I've never seen a ROM failure. Can do, I just wasn't sure if the ROMs are tied to a particular board revision (so I need rev A ROMs for a rev A board etc.). Looking at my Rev A and Rev C boards though it would seem that they have the same part numbers, and I assume they'd be different if the contents were. >> Also, has there been a worse external drive in the history of floppy >> storage? Slow, complicated, expensive and unreliable seems to have most >> bases covered ;-) > > I sort of agree, though I have to say that of my pile of about 30 1541s and > 1541 IIs, all but two ran up fine on first test, after having been in > storage for 25 years. One had a bad 6522, and the other had an alignment > issue. They were all still amazingly slow though! :-) Gotta love 'em, just for how quirky they are - I really don't know what Commodore were thinking when they designed them (even if they'd worked as intended with a higher transfer rate). I do have a drive unit for a Research Machines system designed along similar lines (on-board CPU and serial connection to host), but at least that is a dual-drive unit and uses an off-the-shelf FDC. cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 13 09:46:55 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:46:55 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 11 December 2015 07:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > There is a big rectangular Cap in that PSU that I've left there since > I don't have a usable Replacement and the primary caps where still good so > far. The PSU itself is a really bad design from sight of repair, you can't > properly replace the caps on the switcher PCB since you could'nt dismount > the heat spreader so I suggest that you pull the Caps from above and solder > new one from above as I finally did. > I have been able to remove the leaking ones from the +12V and -12V board, I just have to wait for the new parts to arrive. The two on the 5V and 3.3V board have not leaked, are not bulging, and are harder to remove without removing the bottom heatsink or pulling from above as you suggest. I have not been able to reach them with my ESR meter either, unfortunately. I am tempted to leave them, although pulling from above is an option. Does anyone else agree with the pull from above solution? In case you have not seen it, the design makes it very hard to get at the underside, you have to desolder a load of transistors to do so, and they are not in easy locations either. Regards Rob From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 22:46:39 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:46:39 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566CF82F.5040608@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 11:17 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which >> were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface. Later they got some >> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >> great for quick program editing and submission. > Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe > it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up > close and personal. > > Yes, they were hideous hacks of a cheap TV set. The VHF tuner was still in there, as it was needed to complete the series filament chain. They had 5 tubes in series, with 26-volt filaments, running off 120 V AC. I'm PRETTY sure the brand was Zenith, but this is from about a 43-year old memory of pulling the cover off one. All it had was a keypunch-style keyboard and the TV, all the electronics were in the machine room. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 22:52:43 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:52:43 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566CF99B.6020503@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 06:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote: >> you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card >> content on the card. > [snip] >> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", >> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) > Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to > say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a > program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it > actually ran the program. > I'm pretty sure this was a joke based on the meaning of the word interpreter. If he could have actually run an arbitrary COBOL program, with named variables and conditional branching on a plugboard-based accounting machine, I think IBM would have been VERY interested in hiring him! (Or possibly having him dumped in a nearby body of water with concrete overshoes.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 23:09:41 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:09:41 -0600 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566CFD95.9090902@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 09:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > I'm reading about those terminals and find it just > fascinating how they used acoustic delay line memory to > remember the pixels. But I have lots of questions: 1. Did > the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller > actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the > whole length; or were the delay lines just inside the > controller and then some electronic signal was sent out to > the terminals? The delay lines were little coils of steel wire in a housing. Probably some 30 feet or so wound up in a spool about 9" diameter. See these for some examples. The 2nd one might actually be a 2260 delay line. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Torsion_wire_delay_line.jpg http://www.glennsmuseum.com/ibm/med/med_ibm_wire_memory.jpg I actually have a bunch of 2260 cables here, a couple coaxes for sync and video, and about 15 wires. > 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay > line would weaken over time. How was it refreshed? You read the output through a read amplifier, squared it up to a digital signal, and re-launched it onto the wire. if you wanted to change the info, you switched a multiplexer and inserted the new data instead of recirculating the old character. > 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this > depend on the number of connected terminals? It depended on the 360 CPU, which were not all that fast. But, WAY faster than just about anything at that time. I'm not sure what you really mean by "speed". You could alter the characters on the page you were viewing, and then transmit that to the computer. This all happened at IBM 360 channel speed, so quite fast. (Actually, it was almost certainly running on the multiplexer channel, so each character transferred caused a channel request to put it in a buffer, then when 4 were in the buffer, the channel would cause a memory transfer. (4 bytes was the memory word width for an IBM 360/50.) So, that all happened in milliseconds. Still, this was lightning-fast for that time (1972 or so). Since the OTHER way to do programming was editing decks of punch cards with a keypunch, then submitting it for batch processing and getting your error messages back 4 - 8 hours later, it was REALLY a step forward. I wasn't in any courses where I was actually allowed to use the 2260, though. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 12 23:21:59 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:21:59 -0600 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566D0077.8090802@pico-systems.com> On 12/12/2015 09:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > The IBM 2848, the control unit for the 2260 terminals, contained > mercury (!) delay line for the video memory. There may have been some > compensation for the transmission to the terminal, but I have have not > seen the technical details - I think it was not a concern, probably. > > I don't know where you got this information. I can find a NUMBER of references that say it was a wiresonic delay line. (Due to wiresonic being a trademark, IBM used a different name for it.) But, most certainly, IBM did not have barrels of mercury in mainframe computer rooms in the 1960's. Page 2-29 has the description of the magnetostrictive delay line, see : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/2260/Y27-2046-3_2260_2848_FETOM_Mar68.pdf Jon From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 00:03:20 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 02:03:20 -0400 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566D0A28.5020604@gmail.com> On 2015-12-12 11:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > The IBM 2848, the control unit for the 2260 terminals, contained > mercury (!) delay line for the video memory. There may have been some > compensation for the transmission to the terminal, but I have have not > seen the technical details - I think it was not a concern, probably. > > Line loss is really not a problem. It might have been if the lines > were miles long, but in typical installations, that was not anywhere > near a problem. > > As for speed - not an issue for basically baseband video. > > -- > Will > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:13 PM, Eric Christopherson > wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): >>> On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote: >>>> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the >>>> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about >>>> the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them >>>> but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? >> [snip] >>> Later they got some >>> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >>> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >>> great for quick program editing and submission. >> I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they >> used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots >> of questions: >> >> 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller >> actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or >> were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic >> signal was sent out to the terminals? >> >> 2. I would think that the wave travelling along the delay line would >> weaken over time. How was it refreshed? >> >> 3. What kind of speed could be acheived, and did this depend on the >> number of connected terminals? >> >> -- >> Eric Christopherson I just read the section of the 2260 and 2848 Theory of Operation Manual, found on bit savers, regarding the delay lines and they are not mercury delay lines, in fact I do not believe that IBM ever used mercury delay lines. While I started as a service rep too late for this display system I did get to work on other machines that used delay lines just like the one pictured in this manual, like the 1260 "electronic" proof machine and test scoring machines. The easiest way to think of the delay line is it is like a very long shift register. At the start of the delay line an electromagnet introduces a pulse into the wire, using a magnetostrictive effect, that will travel the length of the wire and is sensed by a transducer at the other end. In between the ends you have a solid state register to extract and insert data into the stream. The manual also notes that NRZ encoding is used on the delay line. The delay lines are 5.5545ms long and the bit rate of the delay line (500ns) which would give you a little over 11K bit of storage. The bit rate of a single delay line was not fast enough to keep up with the display so two delay lines are interleaved to provide a 250ns bit rate. The delay lines used as the display buffer contain the serialized data that would become the video signal at the CRT. If you are really interested in how these delay lines work the relevant material starts at on page 2-29 (pdf page 73). Paul. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 07:51:53 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 07:51:53 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> On 12/12/2015 11:06 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/12/2015 08:18 AM, Tulsamike3434 at gmail.com wrote: >> >> So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did >> the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the >> data on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? > You COULD read the holes, if you really HAD to. Keypunches printed > the alphanumeric form on the top edge of the cards. if you punched a > deck of cards on the CPU's card punch, there was no printing. If it > was an "object deck" ie. binary code, you would never "interpret" the > deck. But, if it had something that might be human readable, there > was a machine called an interpreter, and it would type the symbols on > the top of the card for you. > > Jon > Thank you Jon that makes more sense! From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 13 10:07:10 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:07:10 -0600 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <566D97AE.9090401@jbrain.com> On 12/12/2015 10:52 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952? >> >> The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me. Does anyone >> know what it is? >> >> Jim > The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa. > > There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of > Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board. > > Long ugly link: > https://books.google.com/books?id=soGti0kvtgwC&pg=RA1-PA71&lpg=RA1-PA71&dq=centram-systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=6Vnr0qZn3W&sig=otazIdpkt4Y5Oyrp9jjKKrv_dq4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHtaP34tbJAhUL9mMKHWnaDYQQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=centram-systems%20inc%20kaypro Thanks. I'm considering it. It's a bit steep for a non working board per se, but maybe this add-on is worth saving for posterity. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Dec 13 10:41:11 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 08:41:11 -0800 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566D9FA7.5020902@deltasoft.com> On 12/13/2015 7:22 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 >> rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips >> for what's best to try next? > > Didn't at least some versions use 2114 RAM chips? If so, then check/change > those first > Instead of just randomly replacing stuff, check here: http://personalpages.tds.net/~rcarlsen/cbm.html Ray Carlsen's articles are the gold standard in Commodore hardware diagnostic and repair information. g. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 10:22:12 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:22:12 -0600 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566D9B34.3040103@gmail.com> On 12/13/2015 09:22 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 >> rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips >> for what's best to try next? > > Didn't at least some versions use 2114 RAM chips? If so, then check/change > those first Yes, I've certainly seen that on the schematics, and was considering them as a likely failure too - after opening cases though, my drives all seem to have a single larger SRAM (even the Rev A board, so that's presumably "Rev A of the type that doesn't use 2114's" :-) While 2114's could be somewhat unreliable, I think the larger (6116 etc.) SRAMs are generally OK; while a fault there is a possibility, I'm thinking that the failure is likely elsewhere. (Aside: Why on Earth do people scan schematics as bi-level images? I've not found a good 1541 schematic yet - the ones out there are all high resolution, but the depth reduction renders component information unreadable) Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 10:28:54 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:28:54 -0600 Subject: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question In-Reply-To: <566D97AE.9090401@jbrain.com> References: <566C4C15.1060104@jbrain.com> <566D97AE.9090401@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <566D9CC6.9010807@gmail.com> On 12/13/2015 10:07 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm considering it. It's a bit steep for a non working board per > se, but maybe this add-on is worth saving for posterity. I kind of like it, just for it being a piece of networking technology called "The Web" (and several years prior to TBL & co.) - for that reason I hope that someone save it, although I suppose it's utterly useless without at least one other example. Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 10:36:24 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:36:24 -0500 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <8A2367BE-EADB-4572-B8E3-ECAAF5E81179@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> <8A2367BE-EADB-4572-B8E3-ECAAF5E81179@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: OK - I was told they were mercury, but frankly, I have been sort of skeptical that mercury delay lines would still be used in new digital designs that late in the game. Wire makes far more sense. -- Will On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 1:09 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Dec-12, at 7:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Jon Elson wrote (in the big top posting thread): >>> >>> Later they got some >>> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an >>> interface box in the machine room. Very primitive, but very interactive, >>> great for quick program editing and submission. >> >> I'm reading about those terminals and find it just fascinating how they >> used acoustic delay line memory to remember the pixels. But I have lots >> of questions: >> >> 1. Did the cables connecting the 2260s to the display controller >> actually contain the delay lines themselves, over the whole length; or >> were the delay lines just inside the controller and then some electronic >> signal was sent out to the terminals? > > The delay lines for the 2260 systems were magnetostrictive (not mercury) acoustic delay lines, contained in the controller. > > Magnetostrictive delay lines were a somewhat common memory technique in the 60s, they were used in other early CRT display terminals and in some electronic calculators of the period. > They were an improvement over the mercury delay lines of the first stored-program computers, easier to work with and not as temperamental. > > Speaking generally of the technique (I never worked on a 2848 controller, I have worked on them in calculators): > > Magnetostriction is a characteristic of some materials in which the material will physically expand or contract slightly in response to an applied magnetic field. > Thus a solenoid with a core of magnetostrictive material going through it acts as a transducer of electrical energy to or from mechanical (acoustic) energy. > IIRC, nickel or a nickel alloy was the commonly-used magnetostrictive material. > > Generated acoustic pulses are entered into one end of the delay medium (a metallic wire line) to be picked up at the other end by another transducer, so converted back to electrical energy, electrically amplified and restored to account for losses and distortion from the traverse of the delay medium, changed as appropriate (read/write operations) and re-entered into the delay medium. > Some implementations sent the acoustic pulses longitudinally through the delay wire (expansion/contraction or push/pull of the wire), some sent them torsionally (twisting/rotating the wire). > > The whole point of course, is the much slower speed of acoustic pulses relative to electrical pulses results in a much longer latency through a delay medium of a given length and hence more (time for) storage. > > The delay wire is formed into a spiral/coil loop for compactness. > > If you're interested in some specifications and physical data of a 1960s magnetostrictive memory, in this instance in a calculator, see the commentary part way down the page here, beside the picture of the coiled delay line: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calcs/Sony2500.html > These are from measurements and calculations I made on that delay line. > Or in summary: the acoustic pulses travel at 8140 Km/h, taking 1.6 mS to traverse a delay wire 3.62 m long, providing storage for 1024 bits, each bit occupying about 3.5 mm in the line. > This calculator uses longitudinal pulses, while the 2260/2848 apparently uses torsional pulses. > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 10:53:01 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:53:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 2260 acoustic delay line In-Reply-To: <566D2C2B.8030507@sydex.com> References: <20151213031340.GB47953@gmail.com> <566D2C2B.8030507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <566DA26D.9040903@gmail.com> On 2015-12-13 4:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/12/2015 07:41 PM, dwight wrote: > >> I would assume it makes no sense to have it in the cable. It is >> acoustic not electronic. Typically it would be a loop. Data and >> possibly clock goes in one end. > > As a practical example, consider the Packard-Bell 250 computer. No, > not the Packard-Bell PC of the Israeli tank driver and his buddies, > but the real Packard Bell, maker of consumer radio and TV gear and > aerospace electronics. > > Since the thing could run from an ordinary wall outlet (something > around 1200W) and used only about 300 transistors (and lots of > diodes), it's pretty amazing for a 1961 22-bit minicomputer. > > It used magnetostrictive delay line memory, which is what I'd have > thought that the 2260 would have used. Oh well, I guess IBM did > things their way... > > --Chuck > > > > The 2260 control unit did use magnetostrictive delay line memory as did a few other IBM machines I am familiar with. See https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_ibm2260Y27ar68_33742632 there is a very good description of the delay lines in that manual. Paul. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 13 11:06:46 2015 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 09:06:46 -0800 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <688FEA9D-D10E-4F55-A70E-1D4DBB264B8B@aracnet.com> > On Dec 12, 2015, at 11:40 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I picked up some Qbus cards yesterday. They seem to be board set for a > MicroVAX II. However, one of the cards was, to me at least, a bit unusual. > It was made by a company called Webster, and it appears to be a controller > for SMD disks. I was not familiar with SMD disks and had to look them up. I > suspect this might be a little out of the ordinary, and, possibly, an odd > combination for a small Qbus system to access such a physically large type > of disk. Were MicroVAX IIs used much with such disks? Is this a bit of an > unusual find? I?ve used the WQESD/04 card on my PDP-11/73, if you don?t have SCSI, and have ESDI drive, it totally rocks! If you have SMD drives to plug into this, you can probably make one drive appear as several drives. I?ve sense upgraded to a SCSI card, and use removable drive trays. Zane From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 11:28:36 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:28:36 -0600 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons Message-ID: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Has anyone had any luck re-inking printer ribbons? I spent a few minutes looking at this Vic 1525 printer that I got the other day - turned out that the carriage was just gummed up and there was a blown fuse in the PSU section (probably related to the former problem). Of course the ribbon is completely dried out. I'd originally intended for the printer to be a static "Hey, that looks neat" item, but looking at it briefly, it's a good example of how to make a printer as cheaply as possible, so I'm wondering if there's a way of breathing life back into the ribbon so that it can print again in all it's noisy, glacially-slow glory :-) I don't care if it's not as black as an original ribbon would have been - it just might be nice if it was able to print something legible. cheers Jules From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 13 11:43:57 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:43:57 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing Message-ID: <445e9c.4eb6979a.439f085d@aol.com> Does an example of the IBM/ TV/SET terminal exist out there? Manual? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Dec 13 11:42:57 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:42:57 +0000 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566DAE21.10707@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/12/2015 07:40, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I picked up some Qbus cards yesterday. They seem to be board set for > a MicroVAX II. However, one of the cards was, to me at least, a bit > unusual. It was made by a company called Webster, and it appears to > be a controller for SMD disks. I was not familiar with SMD disks and > had to look them up. I suspect this might be a little out of the > ordinary, and, possibly, an odd combination for a small Qbus system > to access such a physically large type of disk. Were MicroVAX IIs > used much with such disks? Is this a bit of an unusual find? Two of my pdp-11s came with large SMD drives, albeit with Emulex controllers rather than Websters. They're not uncommon. The controllers typically use large drives to emulate two or more smaller types - in my case, RM06s. -- Pete From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 12:17:51 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:17:51 -0500 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Has anyone had any luck re-inking printer ribbons? > > I spent a few minutes looking at this Vic 1525 printer that I got the > other day - turned out that the carriage was just gummed up and there was a > blown fuse in the PSU section (probably related to the former problem). > > Of course the ribbon is completely dried out. I'd originally intended for > the printer to be a static "Hey, that looks neat" item, but looking at it > briefly, it's a good example of how to make a printer as cheaply as > possible, so I'm wondering if there's a way of breathing life back into the > ribbon so that it can print again in all it's noisy, glacially-slow glory > :-) > > I don't care if it's not as black as an original ribbon would have been - > it just might be nice if it was able to print something legible. > > cheers > > Jules > I have found that most vintage ribbons can be replaced with new ribbons for new devices. Worst case you may find the right width but you'll have to re-thread to fit the vintage spindle. Just have to match the width. I recently bought new ribbons for Decwriter II and TI Omni 810 without any problem. Bill -- Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 13 12:22:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 18:22:03 +0000 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: <566D9B34.3040103@gmail.com> References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> , <566D9B34.3040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Yes, I've certainly seen that on the schematics, and was considering them > as a likely failure too - after opening cases though, my drives all seem to > have a single larger SRAM (even the Rev A board, so that's presumably "Rev > A of the type that doesn't use 2114's" :-) Yes, later versions used a single 6116 RAM (which as you said is not likely to be the problem). I have had a ROM failure in a 1541. I am pretty sure mine now has an EPROM in a home-made kludgeboard (to move the enables round, etc) in it. I think at this point you have to do real tests, there is no stock fault. I do have the Sams book on the 1541 somewhere, but IIIRC it suggests swapping out the socketed devices (ROMs, RAM(s), VIA, CPU, etc. If that doesn't help then you pull the CPU and force the logic levels of the address pins to check the address decoder circuitry (but the address decoder almost never fails). I am pretty sure the firmware is not changed for different PCBs. I would keep ROMs in pairs just in case there is a different revision and it matters, but I think you could put the ROMs from the defective drive into a good one and see what the LED does. -tony From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Dec 13 12:37:47 2015 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:37:47 -0700 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:28 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Has anyone had any luck re-inking printer ribbons? > > I spent a few minutes looking at this Vic 1525 printer that I got the > other day - turned out that the carriage was just gummed up and there was a > blown fuse in the PSU section (probably related to the former problem). > > Of course the ribbon is completely dried out. I'd originally intended for > the printer to be a static "Hey, that looks neat" item, but looking at it > briefly, it's a good example of how to make a printer as cheaply as > possible, so I'm wondering if there's a way of breathing life back into the > ribbon so that it can print again in all it's noisy, glacially-slow glory > :-) > > I don't care if it's not as black as an original ribbon would have been - > it just might be nice if it was able to print something legible. > One trick we used back in the day (I used it on my LA50 and also the decwriter at school someone misdirected a print job to) was to spray a bit of WD-40 into the ribbon spool. This got the ink moving around and helped to re moisturize it when it was dried out. I don't know how universal this trick was, or even if there were horrible side effects. I was a teenager it it let me reuse the LA50 ribbon one more time. Not sure how I rewound it, or if I sprayed the ink onto the spooled up ribbon, or as I rewound it backwards. I had a lot more time than money in those days. I do remember doing this a couple of times, and once using too much and having greasy print outs. Is the VIC 1525 a dot-matrix printer? Is the ribbon the cloth type that you have a hard time seeing the stuff just printed (as opposed to the mylar + ink where you clearly see what was typed in IBM Selectric Typewriters)? There's a chance this might work. Your mileage may vary. This trick worked once, maybe twice on fresh ribbons back in the day. I see from google that it works on old ribbons too (but those posts were from 10-15 years ago, don't know what another decade or two does to the drying process). I'd approach this hint with caution and some common sense and weigh he harm to your new toy against darker print. If it is printing fine, but the printing is super light, this might help. You can give a quick blast of WD-40 on the 'about to be used' side to see if it will help. You'll see some dark print that fades away again as the ribbon goes by if the trick worked. Good luck! Warner From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 12:42:35 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:42:35 -0200 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> <566D9B34.3040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: Had lots of 6522 and ROM failures here. I'd begin with rom replacement Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 13/12/2015 16:34, "tony duell" escreveu: > > > > Yes, I've certainly seen that on the schematics, and was considering them > > as a likely failure too - after opening cases though, my drives all seem > to > > have a single larger SRAM (even the Rev A board, so that's presumably > "Rev > > A of the type that doesn't use 2114's" :-) > > Yes, later versions used a single 6116 RAM (which as you said is not likely > to be the problem). > > I have had a ROM failure in a 1541. I am pretty sure mine now has an EPROM > in a home-made kludgeboard (to move the enables round, etc) in it. > > I think at this point you have to do real tests, there is no stock fault. > I do > have the Sams book on the 1541 somewhere, but IIIRC it suggests swapping > out the socketed devices (ROMs, RAM(s), VIA, CPU, etc. If that doesn't help > then you pull the CPU and force the logic levels of the address pins to > check > the address decoder circuitry (but the address decoder almost never fails). > > I am pretty sure the firmware is not changed for different PCBs. I would > keep > ROMs in pairs just in case there is a different revision and it matters, > but I think > you could put the ROMs from the defective drive into a good one and see > what > the LED does. > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 13 12:46:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:46:40 -0800 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <445e9c.4eb6979a.439f085d@aol.com> References: <445e9c.4eb6979a.439f085d@aol.com> Message-ID: <566DBD10.2090900@sydex.com> At CDC Sunnyvale ops back in the 1970s, we had a blind programmer working. His job output came as punched cards and he had no problem reading them by feel. I remember him and his beautiful guide dog. In the same sort of spirit, I recall that one of the secretaries used a monitor-cum-camera affair to enlarge her work documents so that she could read them. It's sad that early corporate efforts to accommodate all people, no matter the impairment, aren't better documented. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 13 12:52:17 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:52:17 -0800 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566DBE61.4000204@sydex.com> You need a Mac Inker, produced for years by Computer Friends. Basically a slow-speed motor and a hollow tube with small holes. You fill the tube with printer ink (very messy) and the motor draws the ribbon over it. The ink will wick through the entire ribbon. After I moved to laser printing, I gave away my Mac Inker. I didn't miss it--as I said, it's a pretty messy business, but it got the job done. The old trick was to open the cartridge and spray WD40 over the top of the ribbon in the stuffer box. Close the ribbon box, put it in a sealed plastic bag and give it a few days for the ink to permeate. The limit to this is, of course, is that you're not replacing the ink, but rather just moistening it. Eventually, all fabric ribbons will wear out, however. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 13 12:42:37 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:42:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566CF99B.6020503@pico-systems.com> References: <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <20151213001323.GD90636@gmail.com> <566CF99B.6020503@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >>> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", >>> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-) > On 12/12/2015 06:13 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to >> say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a >> program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it >> actually ran the program. On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Jon Elson wrote: > I'm pretty sure this was a joke based on the meaning of the word interpreter. > If he could have actually run an arbitrary COBOL program, with named > variables and conditional branching on a plugboard-based accounting machine, > I think IBM would have been VERY interested in hiring him! (Or possibly > having him dumped in a nearby body of water with concrete overshoes.) Folded, spindled, stapled, and mutilated! It would probably take a larger plugboard to turn a machine for printing card contents on them into a language processor. The reason that Jonathan Swift is cataloged with children's books instead of prose satire, and why Douglas Adams never succeeded is because they didn't choose the right emoticons for their works. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 13 12:49:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Dec 2015, Jules Richardson wrote: > so I'm wondering if there's a way of breathing life back into the ribbon so > that it can print again in all it's noisy, glacially-slow glory :-) > I don't care if it's not as black as an original ribbon would have been - it > just might be nice if it was able to print something legible. Re-inking is not hard, although if not planned well, it can be messy. Cheap re-inking machines, such as the classic "MacInker" from "Computer Friends", are just a motorized platform to drag the ribbon over a pad soaked with ink. Stamp pad ink might not be ideal, but should work. In an extreme case, or emergency, anything that will moisturize and/or lubricate the ribbon will work, particularly even including WD-40! From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 13:18:02 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:18:02 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <445e9c.4eb6979a.439f085d@aol.com> References: <445e9c.4eb6979a.439f085d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20151213191801.GC47953@gmail.com> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Does an example of the IBM/ TV/SET terminal exist out there? Manual? > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) Here are some manuals (someone else tipped me off to these): http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/2260/ -- Eric Christopherson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 13 13:20:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:20:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did > > the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the > > data on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? > You COULD read the holes, if you really HAD to. Keypunches printed > the alphanumeric form on the top edge of the cards. if you punched a > deck of cards on the CPU's card punch, there was no printing. If it > was an "object deck" ie. binary code, you would never "interpret" the > deck. But, if it had something that might be human readable, there > was a machine called an interpreter, and it would type the symbols on > the top of the card for you. At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#/media/File:Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png is a picture of a card. It was punched with a printing punch, or run through a 029 series interpreter punch, NOT with an INTERPRETER, which didn't line up what it printed with the columns (too large a font to do so), and couldn't interpret and run COBOL anyway. Notice the punches used for the numbers. The rows above '0' were called 'Y' and 'X' Now look at the punches used for 'A' and 'B', and the relationship between them. Now look at 'K', and compare it with 'J', 'L', and 'B' Now look at 'T', and compare it with 'S', 'U', 'B', and 'K' Letters and numbers were a simple easy to learn pattern. I never fully learned the patterns for punctuation characters, and had to often look them up. The diagonally cut corner was not always on the left (incompletely standardized) There was another special purpose punch, called a "VERIFIER". You loaded it up with cards that were already punched, and proceeded to type from the same coding sheet. If the whole card matched, then it put a little notch in the 80 end of the card, to show that its content was confirmed, or "VERIFIED". If the content didn't match, then the VERIFIER put a notch in the top edge of the card above the column that didn't match. Sometimes service bureaus that were hired to keypunch would verify whole boxes of blank cards. Then they could give their client decks of "VERIFIED" cards, without having to actually rekey the content. Yes, we did run into them. Hanging Chad was a miscarriage of justice. Bury me face down, 9 edge first. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 14:10:52 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:10:52 -0500 Subject: Accessible Computing (Was "Re: Display-less computing") Message-ID: On 13 December 2015 at 13:46, Chuck Guzis wrote: > At CDC Sunnyvale ops back in the 1970s, we had a blind programmer working. > His job output came as punched cards and he had no problem reading them by > feel. I remember him and his beautiful guide dog. > Hmm, that kinda makes sense. It would be kinda/sorta like braille. (I guess that would also work for punched tape as well.) I couldn't tell you how good it would be though, I might be vision impaired, but not enough that I've learnt braille. I wonder if any minis or mainframes (or micros) could actually produce output as braille... > In the same sort of spirit, I recall that one of the secretaries used a > monitor-cum-camera affair to enlarge her work documents so that she could > read them. > CCTV readers. They're still a thing. The tests and exams centre at my university has a bunch of them (one each per exam room, and a bunch of old analogue ones still sitting about). I find the older analogue ones are better than the newer digital ones. If only because the text zoom is more "fluid" (my preferred size of "embiggened" (what, it's a perfectly cromulent word) text is right between two of the settings on the machines we have which is mildly annoying); they also have less artefacts when using non-standard video modes (reverse video, or high contrast modes). > It's sad that early corporate efforts to accommodate all people, no matter > the impairment, aren't better documented. > I'd buy a book on that in a heartbeat; necause that is very much of interest to myself. I know DEC had their DECtalk speech synthesizers (isn't the eminent Dr. Hawking's voice an old DECtalk?) and they could be connected to serial lines. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 13 14:44:06 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:44:06 -0800 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566DD896.3050302@sydex.com> I'll add that very few (if any) high-speed card punches interpreted (i.e. printed the characters corresponding to the punches) their output. Many punches could offset (displace slightly from the stack) individual cards, so it was customary to punch a "lace card" so offset between punch job output with the job ID clearly punched as a humanly-readable pattern. A tremendous help to I/O clerks. However, if you really wanted printing on the cards, you could use a keypunch with an interpreter feature to process a deck--slowly. The alternative was to use a unit-record machine like an IBM 557 interpreter (100 cpm) with the appropriate plugboard to do the job much faster. However, there were some gotchas: 1. There was space for only 60 printed columns across a card, so an 80-column card usually was interpreted in two rows; columns 1-60 on the top row, with columns 61-80 on the second row. Although there were printed cards made for this purpose, correlating printed columns with punched columns, they weren't the usual stuff found in the community blank card stocks. 2. The 557 was an alphanumeric interpreter; it had letters, numbers and a few special characters (comma, period,etc.), and so substituted letters and/or numbers when it didn't have the appropriate character in its character set. It made reading "interesting" in many cases. 3. On the other hand, you place printed output pretty much anywhere on a card, in any order, with a little creative rewiring of the plugboard. Great for practical jokes, since the average programmer generally was not wise to the ways of unit record gear. That being said, if you're over a certain age, it's quite likely that you've run into the product of a 557 or 558. Government checks, for example. I've heard from a couple of CEs that the loathing for the 557 was legend. And while you were there with the UR gear; sorters, reproducing punches, interpreters, collators, you'd make a stop by the 407 accounting machine set up to do 80-80 listings so you'd have a printed version of your card deck to mark up with your blunders. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 13 14:39:30 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 15:39:30 -0500 Subject: Accessible Computing (Was "Re: Display-less computing") Message-ID: <5fd60c.38c11e2c.439f3182@aol.com> we have a portable braille terminal in the museum's accessibility collection . we also have a vast ( and always looking for more) of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing teletype machines and couplers. Ed@ _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 13 15:18:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 13:18:01 -0800 Subject: Accessible Computing (Was "Re: Display-less computing") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566DE089.4020908@sydex.com> On 12/13/2015 12:10 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > CCTV readers. They're still a thing. The tests and exams centre at > my university has a bunch of them (one each per exam room, and a > bunch of old analogue ones still sitting about). I find the older > analogue ones are better than the newer digital ones. If only because > the text zoom is more "fluid" (my preferred size of "embiggened" > (what, it's a perfectly cromulent word) text is right between two of > the settings on the machines we have which is mildly annoying); they > also have less artefacts when using non-standard video modes (reverse > video, or high contrast modes). Okay, Ned. ;) My sister-in-law was born legally blind (she can see shadows) and has made her living teaching the visually-impaired. She has often remarked that computers have gotten much more challenging to use, due to the iconic (graphic) displays and the slapdash organization of information on a modern display. It used to be that she was on pretty much at no particular disadvantage when text-mode displays were the norm. I've tried reading my email using text-to-speech software and felt like I wanted to throw the damned machine out the window. In the same vein, she's remarked that trying to find a modern electric appliance with real knobs and buttons instead of "touch" displays presents even more of a problem. Technology, it seems, hasn't served us well in some respects. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 17:05:22 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:05:22 -0600 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566DF9B2.30606@gmail.com> On 12/13/2015 12:37 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > One trick we used back in the day (I used it on my LA50 and also the > decwriter at school someone misdirected a print job to) was to spray a bit > of WD-40 into the ribbon spool. Hmm, I'll give that a go and see what happens. > Is the VIC 1525 a dot-matrix printer? Well, it's an impact printer, I guess. AIUI, it just has a single pin (driven by a single solenoid) which hits the page through the ribbon, rather than a dot matrix which can do several lines per pass of the head - it's quite delightfully crude in terms of construction, which is why I have this sudden urge to make it able to print :-) > Is the ribbon the cloth type Yes, cloth ribbon. There's no actual direct drive to the ribbon spools; instead there's a little clutch mechanism on the head and this snags the ribbon when the head is returning back to the left-hand margin and causes it to advance. It doesn't look like there's direct drive to the head in the left-hand direction either, incidentally; the mechanism can advance the head to the right, and when it releases, spring tension pulls the head back to the left-hand margin. Like I said, delightfully crude. :) > If it is printing fine, but the printing is super light, this might > help. Well, it *sounds* like the head solenoid is operating - whether it's operating at 100% strength or travel is hard to tell. I'm wondering if I might not be able to hold a bit of sacrificial ribbon from something else in front of the head while it runs a self-test, just to make sure that the head is doing its job. The ribbon certainly looks very faded, however, so I think it's done for either way. > Good luck! Thanks! Jules From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 18:22:48 2015 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 16:22:48 -0800 Subject: Identifying Data General (or DG-related) console/terminal/whatsit? Message-ID: <566E0BD8.6060501@gmail.com> Hi all -- A friend of mine is investigating picking up some DG hardware, and this item: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dg/dg%20console.jpg Is included along with the rest of it. I *know* I've seen something like this somewhere but I can't find anything now that I need it :). Can anyone identify this? Thanks, - Josh From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 19:35:34 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 17:35:34 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 11:42 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Another thing is that small PCB on the DSSI storage Backplane, the Caps > there where dead too. I thing it is the termination Power regulator and in > my case the bad caps "simulated" a bad disk, I could'nt initialize this > disk properly before I've changed the Caps there too.. > I took a look at the DSSI & SCSI termination power supply board in my VAX 4000 BA440 chassis. It's the small board in the storage area of the backplane mounted in place by a single screw. There are two identical circuits based on the LT-1086 with the adjustable output voltage set at 5.30V [1.25V * (1 + 392/121)]. Each circuit has a 100uF 35V 105C nichicon cap between the input and ground and the output and ground. Both circuits on my board still output 5.3V from a 12V input, but I think the caps are starting to leak electrolyte on the PCB and I should replace them all (4 total) before things get ugly. Each circuit has three diodes, an SB520 and a 1N4735A for which I can find datasheets, and a third one which looks like a General Instrument MP654 for which I can't find a datasheet and I'm not sure if that is the correct part number. I can't quite read the marking all the way around the body of the diode. If someone else takes a look at their BA440 DSSI & SCSI termination power supply board let me know if you can make out what that part number is, or if MP654 is a GI part for which you can find a datasheet. -Glen From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 20:07:28 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:07:28 -0600 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> <566D9B34.3040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566E2460.5010308@gmail.com> On 12/13/2015 12:42 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Had lots of 6522 and ROM failures here. I'd begin with rom replacement Yeah, I did some swapping around. It seems that one faulty drive has ROM problems, and the other has both a ROM fault *and* a dead 6522 in UC2. cheers Jules From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 21:19:03 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 19:19:03 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? Message-ID: <010f01d1361e$2fb27b80$8f177280$@gmail.com> Danke sehr, Oliver! Is your implementation available online? Marc >>Marc Verdiell wrote: >> Do you mind providing links to any good implementations of IDE on >> ATMega you know of? >> Marc >Of course mine ;) >And http://www.opend.co.za/hardware/avride/avride.htm but I never verified From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun Dec 13 21:09:02 2015 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:09:02 -0700 Subject: Identifying Data General (or DG-related) console/terminal/whatsit? In-Reply-To: <566E0BD8.6060501@gmail.com> References: <566E0BD8.6060501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566E32CE.6020700@Wild-Hare.com> Not identifiable as DG product - 3rd-party custom (graphics?) console for client? (I can't read logo on bottom of console.) NOAA/NWS AFOS system had similar-looking system with interesting trackball/keyboard combination. Then there was GE Medical... Bruce Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 12/13/2015 5:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > A friend of mine is investigating picking up some DG hardware, and this > item: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dg/dg%20console.jpg > > Is included along with the rest of it. I *know* I've seen something > like this somewhere but I can't find anything now that I need it :). Can > anyone identify this? > > Thanks, > - Josh From ian.finder at gmail.com Sun Dec 13 22:43:37 2015 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 20:43:37 -0800 Subject: Identifying Data General (or DG-related) console/terminal/whatsit? In-Reply-To: <566E32CE.6020700@Wild-Hare.com> References: <566E0BD8.6060501@gmail.com> <566E32CE.6020700@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <224A0CB3-308D-45C3-8B01-8DAF3A978AC3@gmail.com> I have some reason to suspect the machines had something to do with the FAA, if that narrows it down at all. The hardware that goes in the enclosure may or may not be present- the fellow appeared to be a hoarder. Still an interesting mystery to solve- - Ian > On Dec 13, 2015, at 19:09, Bruce Ray wrote: > > Not identifiable as DG product - 3rd-party custom (graphics?) console for client? (I can't read logo on bottom of console.) > > NOAA/NWS AFOS system had similar-looking system with interesting trackball/keyboard combination. Then there was GE Medical... > > Bruce > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > >> On 12/13/2015 5:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> A friend of mine is investigating picking up some DG hardware, and this >> item: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dg/dg%20console.jpg >> >> Is included along with the rest of it. I *know* I've seen something >> like this somewhere but I can't find anything now that I need it :). Can >> anyone identify this? >> >> Thanks, >> - Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 14 01:18:52 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:18:52 +0100 Subject: Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> References: <43ABEFD8-ACC6-4387-8FDE-EDF5197C6E7C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151214071852.GB10176@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 05:41:23AM -0600, Mike wrote: > new Commodore 64's. Can we do that? I make a post about creepy > pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new people to > join? We want new people, and my own reply to that thread was intended as a joke but not on your behalf. I'm sorry if that was how it came across. Regards, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 14 01:22:03 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:22:03 +0100 Subject: Bye for now... was: In-Reply-To: <566C704C.9030104@dds.nl> References: <566C704C.9030104@dds.nl> Message-ID: <20151214072203.GC10176@Update.UU.SE> Hi I'm sorry to see you go. This list has it ups and downs. I certainly don't read everything, not even all things that are on topic. But whenever there is a storm of boring/off-topic/ranting posts I just ride it out. Eventually there will be a fun post to read. So, guys, hang on and don't feed the trolls. No need to go "eternal september" and rage-quit. /P On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 08:06:52PM +0100, simon wrote: > Hi all. > > Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of a list > every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like Whatsapp and > Facebook more and more. > > It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a shame. It > would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". I am > truly not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer > blabla. > > Bye > -- > Met vriendelijke Groet, > > Simon Claessen > drukknop.nl From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 14 01:27:37 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 07:27:37 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <00b001d13640$e8321c20$b8965460$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 14 December 2015 01:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > I took a look at the DSSI & SCSI termination power supply board in my VAX > 4000 BA440 chassis. It's the small board in the storage area of the backplane > mounted in place by a single screw. There are two identical circuits based on > the LT-1086 with the adjustable output voltage set at 5.30V [1.25V * (1 + > 392/121)]. Each circuit has a 100uF 35V 105C nichicon cap between the input > and ground and the output and ground. Both circuits on my board still output > 5.3V from a 12V input, but I think the caps are starting to leak electrolyte on > the PCB and I should replace them all (4 total) before things get ugly. > I just got the board out. The caps on mine look OK, but I see the ESR is at or just above the value suggested on the table printed on my meter. So I will replace them all. > Each circuit has three diodes, an SB520 and a 1N4735A for which I can find > datasheets, and a third one which looks like a General Instrument > MP654 for which I can't find a datasheet and I'm not sure if that is the correct > part number. I can't quite read the marking all the way around the body of > the diode. If someone else takes a look at their > BA440 DSSI & SCSI termination power supply board let me know if you can > make out what that part number is, or if MP654 is a GI part for which you can > find a datasheet. > I had a look and all I can make out on one is"P654" with "143" underneath. On the second one I can see "MP" with "GI" underneath. So, presumably, the full marking is MP654/ GI 143. Presumably, one of these parts is the date code. Regards Rob From lehmann at ans-netz.de Mon Dec 14 01:30:55 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:30:55 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <010f01d1361e$2fb27b80$8f177280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151214083055.Horde.BOYr6ozMDg45gEs5ERAqEMj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Marc Verdiell wrote: > Danke sehr, Oliver! Is your implementation available online? Yes - here it is: https://github.com/OlliL/P8000_WDC_Emulator/tree/master/P8000_WDC_Emulator But right now I'm working on an enhanced version of it where I don't uses latches for the higher 8 bits of the ATA 16 bits. This boosts the read and write speeds from around 700kB/sec to around 1.7MB/sec. Unfortunally the ATA interaction is done but not the other parts of my emulator so the enhanced version is not yet online available. Oliver > Marc > >>> Marc Verdiell wrote: >>> Do you mind providing links to any good implementations of IDE on >>> ATMega you know of? >>> Marc > >> Of course mine ;) >> And http://www.opend.co.za/hardware/avride/avride.htm but I never verified From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 14 04:53:23 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:53:23 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <00b001d13640$e8321c20$b8965460$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <00b001d13640$e8321c20$b8965460$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151214105322.GD92568@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > > Sent: 14 December 2015 01:36 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > I took a look at the DSSI & SCSI termination power supply board in my VAX > > 4000 BA440 chassis. It's the small board in the storage area of the backplane > > mounted in place by a single screw. There are two identical circuits based on > > the LT-1086 with the adjustable output voltage set at 5.30V [1.25V * (1 + > > 392/121)]. Each circuit has a 100uF 35V 105C nichicon cap between the input > > and ground and the output and ground. Both circuits on my board still output > > 5.3V from a 12V input, but I think the caps are starting to leak electrolyte on > > the PCB and I should replace them all (4 total) before things get ugly. > > > > > I just got the board out. The caps on mine look OK, but I see the ESR is at or just above the value suggested on the table printed on my meter. So I will replace them all. All of the Nichicons in my PSU and that Terminator Power Source looked ok, but that was all...totally dead from the ESR side of view. Don't bother with what you measure, replace them all if you can. The leaking Caps in my PSU where from another Manufacturer (don't remember wich one) and had a black color. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Dec 14 07:09:14 2015 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:09:14 +1100 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <72DB36BB-B1CD-4AF0-80AE-65AC7B1FF98E@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On 13 Dec 2015, at 18:40, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I picked up some Qbus cards yesterday. They seem to be board set for a > MicroVAX II. However, one of the cards was, to me at least, a bit unusual. > It was made by a company called Webster, and it appears to be a controller > for SMD disks. I was not familiar with SMD disks and had to look them up. I > suspect this might be a little out of the ordinary, and, possibly, an odd > combination for a small Qbus system to access such a physically large type > of disk. Were MicroVAX IIs used much with such disks? Is this a bit of an > unusual find? Webster were based in Melbourne Australia and developed a lot of innovative products in the 1980s/1990s. We had one such controller in a MicroVAX-II I used to manage with a Fujitsu Super Eagle SMD drive. It was a very cost effective solution compared with an RA-82. I hadn?t thought about this particular system for a long while and it brought back fond memories. The fact that I still manage OpenVMS systems 30 years later is cause for celebration! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 03:52:33 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:52:33 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 Message-ID: Folks, I'm still probing the alleged "parallel ASCII" interface that was supposedly fitted to my 'Western I/O' converted IBM 2970 Selectric. Here's where we're at: http://corestore.org/2970pins.jpg I've traced the pins from the DB25 connector back to the board; the ribbon cable in the above pic is straight-through to the DB25. It doesn't resemble any interface with which I'm familiar, and I can't see how it can possibly be parallel. Only the following pins (these are the DB25 pin numbers remember) connect to any pins or devices on the interface board: 9, 10, 11, 13, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24. All other pins are either unconnected, or ground. Of the above 10 pins, 11, 13, 22 & 23 are high at power-up (printer NOT connected to any interface). The only pin with known function is 19, which is 'paper out'; if I toggle the paper out switch I can see it going high and low. There is no frigging way that can be a conventional 8-bit parallel interface, obviously, with only 10 pins in use, and 4 or 5 of them (depending on paper out) high on power-up - obviously signaling something. Whatever it is, most of the pins are driven by an IC - an Allen Bradley 314B102. Google has nothing, except a few for sale. No datasheet anywhere I can find. Can anyone give me a clue as to the purpose and pinouts of an Allen Bradley 314B102??!! Here's the component side of the driver board, the interface and 314B102 bottom right: http://corestore.org/2970driver.jpg Help? Please? Anyone out there with old reference material? Anyone make a stab at what the hell this interface might be??? Maybe, maybe, it's some kind of custom 'internal' interface and was intended to be used with a (missing) external converter box/cable that made a standard parallel interface of it?? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 07:12:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:12:12 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Can anyone give me a clue as to the purpose and pinouts of an Allen > Bradley 314B102??!! First guess, it's not really an IC, it's a resistor array. Either separate resistors going across the chip or resistors all commoned to the highest numbered pin (which may well be +5V). I would secondly guess that '102' means 1k (10*10^2) -tony From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 07:58:27 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 02:58:27 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty good guess actually... The rest of the board is pretty simple stuff I think... Maybe just pullups... Someone who is better than me at squinting at old circuitry can take a peek! Mike On Dec 15, 2015 2:18 AM, "tony duell" wrote: > > > Can anyone give me a clue as to the purpose and pinouts of an Allen > > Bradley 314B102??!! > > First guess, it's not really an IC, it's a resistor array. Either separate > resistors > going across the chip or resistors all commoned to the highest numbered > pin (which may well be +5V). > > I would secondly guess that '102' means 1k (10*10^2) > > -tony > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Dec 14 08:06:48 2015 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:06:48 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566ECCF8.5050002@ljw.me.uk> On 14/12/15 13:12, tony duell wrote: >> Can anyone give me a clue as to the purpose and pinouts of an Allen >> Bradley 314B102??!! > First guess, it's not really an IC, it's a resistor array. Either separate resistors > going across the chip or resistors all commoned to the highest numbered > pin (which may well be +5V). > > I would secondly guess that '102' means 1k (10*10^2) > > -tony > > I agree, especially as it looks like pins 8-14 are commoned to the power?-plane. I wondered whether P1,P2 and P3 could be decoding PROMs to convert ASCII to Tilt/Rotate. In which case there must be separate solenoid drivers somewhere. The 7475s are 4-bit latches, so maybe it pushes out 4 bits at a time? But I think there would be enough on there to do the interfacing, so are you sure it only uses 10 pins on the DB-25? -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 14 08:21:48 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 08:21:48 -0600 Subject: Emergency Moderation Mode Message-ID: <000101d1367a$c490a9a0$4db1fce0$@classiccmp.org> Sorry, that last post ('Re: bye for now') was not intended to get through. The list was put into emergency moderation mode the past couple days so I have had to approve each post and apparently slipped on that one. Hopefully, people noticed the quick return to on-topicness the past day or two. Several last thoughts on the topic... Being the list owner, last I checked - I'm allowed to state my preference on things. I have a strong preference against top posting. I have never banned anyone for it. I see no problem with me stating that preference once in a (great) while, especially when new members first join the list. I also find it rather odd that people post ad-nauseum about how much they hate the off-topicness (or the specific off-topic post in question), when in fact the quickest/easiest way for a list member to end an off-topic thread (other than contacting me) is to simply not respond to the post. Venting your angst is a sure way to continue the flame-fest. In any case, I'll continue to moderate 100% of the inbound posts, until such time as I see things staying level-headed for a while. J From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 14 08:19:13 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:19:13 -0500 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 14, 2015, at 8:12 AM, tony duell wrote: > > >> Can anyone give me a clue as to the purpose and pinouts of an Allen >> Bradley 314B102??!! > > First guess, it's not really an IC, it's a resistor array. Either separate resistors > going across the chip or resistors all commoned to the highest numbered > pin (which may well be +5V). Yes. The former. You can see it clearly on a photo on Ebay where someone offers a set of 24 of these; the lighting reveals the thick film resistor elements running across the package, showing up as humps in the lacquer coating. > I would secondly guess that '102' means 1k (10*10^2) That sounds right, and for pullup resistors that would be a plausible value. It matches the numbering used on surface mount components. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 09:59:03 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:59:03 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some more random thoughts.... > > Of the above 10 pins, 11, 13, 22 & 23 are high at power-up (printer > NOT connected to any interface). The only pin with known function is > 19, which is 'paper out'; if I toggle the paper out switch I can see > it going high and low. Well, 19 could be a general printer-ready pin in that if the paper runs out it would say the printer is not ready for another character but it might well also be put to the not-ready state when the printer was printing the current character. Seen that before. Also, having now looked at the photos (sorry I was rushed before) I am pretty sure that Allen Bradley package is a pull-up resistor array. Half the pins seem to go to the +5V trace. The others go to signals Remember that a pulled-up logic input will test as a high level. So some or all of the 'high' pins might be inputs. I notice the 3 chips with the Pn lables. I think I can make out a Harris logo on one of them. I would guess these are programmed PROMs to convert between ASCII (I hope) and the solenoid codes for the Selectric. The next thing of interest to me is the pair of 7475 latches at the bottom of the board. 4 bits each. Maybe hold the 8 bit input character. I would trace where the D's and Q's of those go first. Perhaps you load the character a nybble at a time??? This board does not look that complicated and all the ICs have known numbers on them (mostly TTL logic). If it were mine I'd trace out the schematic. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 10:12:44 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:12:44 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC Message-ID: Just to change the subject.. There were "S" and an "NC" version of 11/05 high profile system. Why? I am curious if any DEC historians here know the reason for two versions of the same DEC PDP 11/05 *high profile* computer (not talking about the low profile). There are separate manuals for each type. The S seems to be more OEM-ish because it comes in an BA11-K chassis. I am guessing you'd see an 11/05 S as part of a larger system (PDP 10), whereas the NC model would be for a stand alone system. ??? This S's BA11-K chassis was used by other hardware by simply changing the backplane. The "NC" model chassis seems to be specifically for the 11/05 I don't think it appears anywhere else. If anyone is interested to see the different models I have a thread on my site for each type: 11/05 S http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=622 11/05 NC http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 ... and then there are the 11/10's.... -- Bill From auringer at tds.net Mon Dec 14 10:46:10 2015 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:46:10 -0600 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <566EF252.1030602@tds.net> On 2015-12-13 1:40 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I picked up some Qbus cards yesterday. They seem to be board set for a > MicroVAX II. However, one of the cards was, to me at least, a bit unusual. > It was made by a company called Webster, and it appears to be a controller > for SMD disks. I was not familiar with SMD disks and had to look them up. I > suspect this might be a little out of the ordinary, and, possibly, an odd > combination for a small Qbus system to access such a physically large type > of disk. Were MicroVAX IIs used much with such disks? Is this a bit of an > unusual find? Not completely unusual. Our company had a pair of Microvax IIs, in rack mount form, that shared a pair of SMD drives in another rack mount chassis. The cards used to interface to the 8" drives were EMULEX QD33 MSCP-compatible SMD/SMD-E disk controllers. I would have one of these up and running right now, except that the power supply in the drive chassis died the last time I tried it and haven't had time to fix it. I believe the drives are from fujitsu. I believe the drives were mainly used as NFS mounts for other UNIX boxes. -Jon From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 14 11:17:10 2015 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:17:10 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> On 12/12/2015 6:11 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: >> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? I think that's a very inviting question for those of us who view those years with a good bit of fond nostalgia! The first ones I personally encountered all read and punched 80-column cards. Some read and wrote to physically rather huge disk drives which could store all of 5MB, but most of them read and wrote 7-track 1/2" wide magnetic tape. The "display" was a line printer. These were strictly business systems used to maintain the needed data for insurance companies, banks, General Services Administration, and a local daily newspaper. Later, rather more interesting ones to me, read and punched 1" wide paper tape. Their primary output was to 1/2" magnetic tape, and their operator consoles were an I/O Selectric typewriter. Some of them also had line printers. They were more interesting to me because they were interfaced to optical character readers, and their main role was to control certain parameters in the OCR system but mostly to receive the characters which were read and write them to the mag tape. The mag tapes were further processed on much larger computer systems as desired by the customers. All text, no graphics at all. Well, I did once write a graph plotting program that could plot data to a line printer. It could even plot multiple graphs overlaid, and kept the curves separated by using a different text character for each input data set. That was fun. :-) Please note that I did change the subject on you so folks would know this is not part of the abominable thread. Later, Charlie C. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 14 11:11:21 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:11:21 -0800 Subject: New Heathkit videos... Message-ID: <566EF839.2000909@deltasoft.com> Part 2: Backplane Circuit Board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdeHfcasBbM Part 3: RAM Board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwbO4bBnpEg g. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Dec 14 08:32:06 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 09:32:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Emergency Moderation Mode In-Reply-To: <000101d1367a$c490a9a0$4db1fce0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000101d1367a$c490a9a0$4db1fce0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201512141432.JAA00951@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The list was put into emergency moderation mode the past couple days > so I have had to approve each post and apparently slipped on that > one. [...] > In any case, I'll continue to moderate 100% of the inbound posts, > until such time as I see things staying level-headed for a while. Jay, you are an _awesome_ listowner. Thank you - once again! - for running this resource for us. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 14 11:33:27 2015 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:33:27 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: <566DD896.3050302@sydex.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <566DD896.3050302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <566EFD67.3040602@tx.rr.com> On 12/13/2015 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > I've heard from a couple of CEs that the loathing for the 557 was legend. Legend has it that someone once turned in a suggestion form at IBM saying that the Cardatype(sp?) plant should be bombed with 557s. :-) Charlie C. > > And while you were there with the UR gear; sorters, reproducing > punches, interpreters, collators, you'd make a stop by the 407 > accounting machine set up to do 80-80 listings so you'd have a printed > version of your card deck to mark up with your blunders. > > --Chuck > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 11:47:40 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:47:40 -0500 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 >> rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips >> for what's best to try next? > > Didn't at least some versions use 2114 RAM chips? If so, then check/change > those first I don't think any of the single-disk CBM drives used 2114s (but I agree - those are favorite suspects when present). I'm pretty sure all the units I've worked on have 6116-type 2K SRAMs or perhaps 6264s. I'd have to go back and check parts lists, but the older dual-drive units might have had 2114s as the shared memory between the two processors. -ethan From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Dec 14 11:45:42 2015 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 11:45:42 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <566F0046.90808@tx.rr.com> On 12/14/2015 11:17 AM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On 12/12/2015 6:11 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: >>> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what >>> in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I >>> know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the >>> hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use >>> for? Mathematics or? ? ? > I think that's a very inviting question for those of us who view those > years with a good bit of fond nostalgia! > > The first ones I personally encountered all read and punched 80-column > cards. Some read and wrote to physically rather huge disk drives > which could store all of 5MB, but most of them read and wrote 7-track > 1/2" wide magnetic tape. The "display" was a line printer. These were > strictly business systems used to maintain the needed data for > insurance companies, banks, General Services Administration, and a > local daily newspaper. > > Later, rather more interesting ones to me, read and punched 1" wide > paper tape. Their primary output was to 1/2" magnetic tape, and their > operator consoles were an I/O Selectric typewriter. Some of them also > had line printers. They were more interesting to me because they were > interfaced to optical character readers, and their main role was to > control certain parameters in the OCR system but mostly to receive the > characters which were read and write them to the mag tape. The mag > tapes were further processed on much larger computer systems as > desired by the customers. > > All text, no graphics at all. Well, I did once write a graph plotting > program that could plot data to a line printer. It could even plot > multiple graphs overlaid, and kept the curves separated by using a > different text character for each input data set. That was fun. :-) > > Please note that I did change the subject on you so folks would know > this is not part of the abominable thread. > > Later, > Charlie C. > > Whoops, I should have read further before changing the subject! Sorry about that. Hopefully this will "fix" it, even though I'm probably committing a no-no by replying to my own post. Charlie C. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 14 11:55:20 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 12:55:20 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? I'll add my perspective. My first exposure to the use of computers came from my father, who was a mechanical engineering professor at TU Eindhoven, doing precision measurement. He used the university's computer (there was a single computer serving most of the university's needs) to do analysis of the test results. For example, one instrument was an interferometer, which would measure positions in terms of wavelength (1/8th of the wavelength of a very stable helium-neon laser). Those measurements were punched on paper tape by custom hardware, along with temperature and humidity observations. The software would read those numbers, adjust the measurements to account for temperature (which changes both wavelength and the size of the test object) and humidity (which affects wavelength). The results could be printed, but often would be shown graphically using a plotter (drum plotter). A plotter is a pretty simple device, involving a pen that can move across paper in X and Y directions, usually with stepper motors, and a solenoid to raise or lower the pen. Some had multiple pens (different color or size). A "flat bed" plotter has an X/Y carriage moving over a flat table on which the paper is mounted. A drum plotter has a carriage for one axis moving along a drum a few inches diameter, which transports paper (a long roll) in the other direction. This stuff used the "THE" operating system, an early multi-process operating system and the first to use rigorous design for correctness and clean structure. User input was via paper tape, for programs and data; output could be paper tape, line printer output, or plotter output. There were some magnetic tapes as well, I'm not sure how those were used. The OS used a magnetic drum (similar to a disk drive, older but for those days quite fast) for virtual memory (code and data) and for buffering I/O data streams for paper tape, printer, and plotter. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 14 11:51:58 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:51:58 +0000 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> , Message-ID: > > I don't think any of the single-disk CBM drives used 2114s (but I > agree - those are favorite suspects when present). I'm pretty sure > all the units I've worked on have 6116-type 2K SRAMs or perhaps 6264s. > I'd have to go back and check parts lists, but the older dual-drive > units might have had 2114s as the shared memory between the two > processors. At least one version of the 8050 uses 8 off 2114s as the shared memory I had to replace the lot in mine.... -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 14 12:11:33 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:11:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: What did computers without screens do? Message-ID: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mike > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in > the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? There are a number of different generations, and the way they were used generally depended on what the computer in question had for I/O capabilities. In the very earliest machines, the computations tended to be mathematical modeling; things that needed a lot of computing, but had very modest I/O requirements. The classic example was the hydrogen bomb calculations performed on ENIAC (which was originally built to do ballistics computations), but other similar ones included structural modeling, etc. That class of application continued (and does so, to this day), but over time, more and more things got done using computers, as their capabilities (online storage, I/O, etc) grew. In general, the new applications were added to the existing ones, but did not supplant the earlier ones. Starting with a computer in England called LEO: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEO_(computer) they were also applied to business applications (inventory, payroll, billing, etc), which typically did more modest computations, but more I/O, which required better I/O capability (cards, tapes, printers, etc). With the advent of timesharing in the early 1960's, it became common to add individual character-output terminals (initially printing, moving mostly to video terminals circa the mid-70's), and with the ability of users to interact with applications running on a computer, applications broadened even further; online text preparation was one common one. The final phase came with the introduction of bit-mapped video terminals, which allowed the interactive users to use graphics, and images; the very earliest such systems were on time-sharing mainframes, but with the growth of personal computers, that technology migrated there (note that the very earlist PC's had only character-output terminals, mimicing their main-frame big brothers of the time). Noel From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 12:34:53 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 10:34:53 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers we encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably 100 would be a safe bet. Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard and heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of my PC. I can't honestly say how many computers my car uses. Probably 100 is much too low. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 12:33:48 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:33:48 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-12-14 17:12 GMT+01:00 william degnan : > Just to change the subject.. > > There were "S" and an "NC" version of 11/05 high profile system. Why? > > I am curious if any DEC historians here know the reason for two versions of > the same DEC PDP 11/05 *high profile* computer (not talking about the low > profile). There are separate manuals for each type. > Age? The NC (and ND if you are in 230VAC area) are in the BA11-D chassis which uses the H750 PSU. The same chassis was used by for example 11/35. The H750 PSU has partly the same assemblies as the low PDP-11/05 chassis and then also a H744. The memory system is somewhat different in that the H214 is 8kW and the H217 is 16kW and the former is used in the NC/ND while the S uses the latter. But of course there can be all sorts of other reasons as well. /Mattis > The S seems to be more OEM-ish because it comes in an BA11-K chassis. I am > guessing you'd see an 11/05 S as part of a larger system (PDP 10), whereas > the NC model would be for a stand alone system. ??? > > This S's BA11-K chassis was used by other hardware by simply changing the > backplane. The "NC" model chassis seems to be specifically for the 11/05 I > don't think it appears anywhere else. > > If anyone is interested to see the different models I have a thread on my > site for each type: > 11/05 S > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=622 > > 11/05 NC > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=249 > > ... and then there are the 11/10's.... > > -- > Bill > From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:05:58 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:05:58 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> > On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers we encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably 100 would be a safe bet. > > Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard and heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of my PC. > > I can't honestly say how many computers my car uses. > > Probably 100 is much too low. > > --Chuck You know Chuck that is a extremely great point that never even crossed my mind! Come to think about my "pen mouse" probably has mor power than most computers before 1980 lol that Mr Chuck is a thing I will think about for a long time because if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:16:08 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:16:08 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:11 PM, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: >> From: Mike > >> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in >> the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? > > There are a number of different generations, and the way they were used > generally depended on what the computer in question had for I/O capabilities. > > In the very earliest machines, the computations tended to be mathematical > modeling; things that needed a lot of computing, but had very modest I/O > requirements. The classic example was the hydrogen bomb calculations > performed on ENIAC (which was originally built to do ballistics > computations), but other similar ones included structural modeling, etc. > > That class of application continued (and does so, to this day), but over > time, more and more things got done using computers, as their capabilities > (online storage, I/O, etc) grew. In general, the new applications were added > to the existing ones, but did not supplant the earlier ones. > > Starting with a computer in England called LEO: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEO_(computer) > > they were also applied to business applications (inventory, payroll, billing, > etc), which typically did more modest computations, but more I/O, which > required better I/O capability (cards, tapes, printers, etc). > > With the advent of timesharing in the early 1960's, it became common to add > individual character-output terminals (initially printing, moving mostly to > video terminals circa the mid-70's), and with the ability of users to > interact with applications running on a computer, applications broadened even > further; online text preparation was one common one. > > The final phase came with the introduction of bit-mapped video terminals, > which allowed the interactive users to use graphics, and images; the very > earliest such systems were on time-sharing mainframes, but with the growth of > personal computers, that technology migrated there (note that the very > earlist PC's had only character-output terminals, mimicing their main-frame > big brothers of the time). > > Noel Thanks Noel for the great link and wow they still used LEO all the way up to 1981 crazy. This is what I am talking about just the knowledge I ca soak up here. . . Man I could read up on this stuff for years! Again thanks for the great info. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 14 13:42:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:42:04 -0000 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <566EF252.1030602@tds.net> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> <566EF252.1030602@tds.net> Message-ID: <014e01d136a7$827d8ec0$8778ac40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon > Auringer > Sent: 14 December 2015 16:46 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller > > > > Not completely unusual. Our company had a pair of Microvax IIs, in rack > mount form, that shared a pair of SMD drives in another rack mount chassis. > The cards used to interface to the 8" drives were EMULEX QD33 MSCP- > compatible SMD/SMD-E disk controllers. I would have one of these up and > running right now, except that the power supply in the drive chassis died the > last time I tried it and haven't had time to fix it. I believe the drives are from > fujitsu. I believe the drives were mainly used as NFS mounts for other UNIX > boxes. > I have had a few replies now. So it seems that it wasn't that unusual to connect up these big drives to a MicroVAX II. Can't see myself ever having the space, or a strong enough floor, for such a drive though, and I suspect they are not that easy to find in any case, but it would be nice to see such a beast in action. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 14:16:33 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:16:33 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike wrote: >> On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers we encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably 100 would be a safe bet. >> Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard and heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of my PC. > > .... if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! Even lighting... I've pulled (and reused!) 8-pin PIC microcontrollers out of discarded emergency lighting. "In the old days", a switching supply might have a 555 timer for an oscillator. These days, an 8-pin uC is cheap ($0.75 or far less) and allows the behavior to be changed without a soldering iron, or allows the hardware design to be completed and sent out for manufacture before the software is complete. If you want to change the frequency of a 555 oscillator, you have to design in a potentiometer or remove and install different value components. If you want to change the frequency of a uC oscillator, you reprogram it (or if you have enough pins, design in some removable jumpers). Short version is, even the cheap and simple 555 has been replaced in many products with a cheap-as-or-cheaper-than microcontroller, not because it's simpler, but because it allows for greater flexibility and reduces the overall product cost. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 14 14:18:44 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:18:44 -0700 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> Message-ID: <566F2424.90303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/14/2015 11:34 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers we > encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably > 100 would be a safe bet. > > Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard and > heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of > my PC. > > I can't honestly say how many computers my car uses. > > Probably 100 is much too low. > > --Chuck > As I was debugging the fpga computer design I had, I found a feature with the software, no warning just compile with the bug. ARG! How ever this was code for testing a SD card interface, and since the card was NOT working I was looking all over for doc's on SD cards (Not SDHC cards). They now have a bunch of interface chips for them so your little embedded controller does not have to bit bang. Next they will create one BIG chip to control all I/O until somebody changes the standard again. Ben. PS Will reply back in January when the new standards hit the market place.PAY big $$$ for the doc's. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 14:38:25 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:38:25 -0200 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: They can be easily replaced with newer chips. But any work with it should make you think about building a sd2iec hehehehe (I gotta build one for me...) Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 14/12/2015 16:09, "tony duell" escreveu: > > > > I don't think any of the single-disk CBM drives used 2114s (but I > > agree - those are favorite suspects when present). I'm pretty sure > > all the units I've worked on have 6116-type 2K SRAMs or perhaps 6264s. > > I'd have to go back and check parts lists, but the older dual-drive > > units might have had 2114s as the shared memory between the two > > processors. > > At least one version of the 8050 uses 8 off 2114s as the shared memory > I had to replace the lot in mine.... > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 14:45:41 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 15:45:41 -0500 Subject: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller In-Reply-To: <014e01d136a7$827d8ec0$8778ac40$@ntlworld.com> References: <002401d13579$794476e0$6bcd64a0$@ntlworld.com> <566EF252.1030602@tds.net> <014e01d136a7$827d8ec0$8778ac40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have had a few replies now. So it seems that it wasn't that unusual to > connect up these big drives to a MicroVAX II. In the late 1980s, your choices for uVAXII disk were essentially, 5.25" DEC RD drives, which topped out at 154MB, or external drives, often 8" or 14", and unless you were tied to DEC-only (and went with an QDA50 and first an RA81, then RA82, then possibly RA90, etc), your next choice was some 3rd party controller and the drives to match. If the goal was > 150MB, that often meant Fujitsu SMD drives, but then later, large-capacity 5.25" ESDI drives started to appear. I have a bit of both with my VAX 8300... a KDB50 with a real RA81 (because we already had that when we got the used 8300 in 1989) then some years later, I landed a 5"-tall 3rd party disk box with ESDI on the inside and SDI on the outside. ISTR mine has 2x 600MB ESDI, so it's 3X the storage of the RA81 in 1/2 the volume, in less than 1/4 the weight, and probably 1/5 the power. :-) -ethan From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Dec 14 16:07:52 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:07:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What did computers without screens do? References: <1257348375.915635.1450130872510.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1257348375.915635.1450130872510.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Mon, 12/14/15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike wrote: >> On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less >>> computers we encounter every day without giving it a >>> thought.? I think that probably 100 would be a safe bet. >> >> .... if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a >> computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! > > Even lighting... I've pulled (and reused!) 8-pin PIC microcontrollers > out of discarded emergency lighting.? ... Along those lines, as I was preparing for a class I taught this quarter called Computing in the Small, I came across some interesting stats. Microchip crossed the 12 billion PICs shipped a few years ago and were running at nearly a billion a year then. ARM holdings quotes over 50 billion ARMs shipped. They estimate that about 60% of the Earth's population has daily contact with a device containing an ARM. That's not too far behind the 64% who have running water. And not all that long ago the 8051 was the most fabbed ISA in the world. The bottom line is that computers involving humans interacting through keyboards, mice, and screens are really just a niche in the computing world. Embedded systems are the predominant class of computing systems. Or to twist a line from Shakespeare, There's more in the universe of computing than is dreamt of in the PC philosophy. BLS From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:48:01 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:48:01 -0000 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ba01d136c1$7cb5eae0$7621c0a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 14 December 2015 17:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: What did computers without screens do? > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: > > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the > world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about > the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them > but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? > Computers without screens were used for almost everything that you use computers with screens for. They are still that "Universal Machine" envisaged by Turing... Almost all had some kind of console that could be used for playing games, when not used for operating the computer. The experimental MU5 machine at Manchester University used to play tunes when not doing other work. The console switches selected the tune. When it was changed MU5 would compose a suitable short piece of music to provide a graceful change... A lot of the real work was accounting. My first computing job was at an insurance company. At least in the UK most Insurance Companies had converted to Punch Card systems in the 1940's so moving their systems to computers was easy. At first they just used card files to record the basic policy details, and last premium paid. Then they moved to tape files. The tapes contained details of each policy, for a "Life" policy it would record the Name, Date of Birth, Premium, Payment Frequency, Policy Type, Sum Assured etc. The main update program would have as inputs the current file and a file of updates. The updates might be "premium paid", "add new policy" , "Lapse a policy", "Pay the sum assured" etc. The outputs would be a new updated master file, a journal of changes and perhaps letters or checks. This basic three file update was used for insurance policies, stock control, financial account of other types (e.g. stock and shares trading), pensions mortgages, payroll. There were other programs that ran to work out what funds we needed to pay the policies, these were called "valuations".... ... then I went to work at a Scientific establishment. Here we ran tidal prediction programs, ocean models, and did media conversion to convert data from under-sea data loggers to normal 9-track tape. Here we also had a Calcomp plotter that was driven from tape and used to print graphs of the height of the tide. .;.. and of course the most important job of all, printing line printer pictures. So Christmas Trees, Father Christmas, Sleighs and Reindeer, Best wishes for Birthdays, Weddings and retirements.... Dave G4UGM P.S. I noted one Christmas at Newcastle University after the file space had been cleaned up and the Christmas Prints deleted there was a note in the data prep area which read:- "Due to a lack of Reindeer Santa will not be directing an output stream down Roger's (The ops manager) chimney" From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 14 17:32:15 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:32:15 +0000 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Do remember when ordering 2114's that these are all NOS units and just about as likely to be bad as the ones in your unit. I don't know of any surplus place that has the ability to test them. Most any of the places that I've dealt with will replace bad ones but if dealing by mail order, it may not be worth the hassle. Order a few extras. Dwight From isking at uw.edu Mon Dec 14 16:16:38 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:16:38 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: And think of all the PDP-8s *still* buried in the control units of factories across the world. The majority of these machines had no displays, not even teleprinters. Some had custom controls wired in through stock or custom modules, and some had no more "UI" than the front panel ("set switches 2 and 3 to the 'on' position and press the 'run' key"). Some didn't even have that - the stock 8/m was a turnkey system. The reasoning was the same as that behind the microcontroller replacing the 555: complex behavior could be modeled in software rather than intricate analog elements, and it was easy to change things if you needed to (e.g., if you changed out an instrument or effector. -- Ian On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike wrote: > >> On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> > >> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers > we encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably > 100 would be a safe bet. > >> Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard > and heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of > my PC. > > > > .... if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a > computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! > > Even lighting... I've pulled (and reused!) 8-pin PIC microcontrollers > out of discarded emergency lighting. "In the old days", a switching > supply might have a 555 timer for an oscillator. These days, an 8-pin > uC is cheap ($0.75 or far less) and allows the behavior to be changed > without a soldering iron, or allows the hardware design to be > completed and sent out for manufacture before the software is > complete. If you want to change the frequency of a 555 oscillator, > you have to design in a potentiometer or remove and install different > value components. If you want to change the frequency of a uC > oscillator, you reprogram it (or if you have enough pins, design in > some removable jumpers). > > Short version is, even the cheap and simple 555 has been replaced in > many products with a cheap-as-or-cheaper-than microcontroller, not > because it's simpler, but because it allows for greater flexibility > and reduces the overall product cost. > > -ethan > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:32:31 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 14:32:31 -0800 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? Message-ID: Before I chuck these in the recycle bin, does anyone want a copies of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager? I have two boxes, QB-4QYAA-SA 3.2 sealed in shrink wrap, and QB-4QYAA-SA 3.3 open box that is slightly crushed. The boxes (at least the still sealed one) look like this eBay item (not mine) listing: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321413114710 The DIGITAL ServerWORKS? Manager Installation and User Guide in the QB-4QYAA-SA 3.3 open box is the ER-4QXAA-UA. G01 version of the ER-4QXAA-UA. H01 manual here: http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds-199909/cd2/network/4qxaauah.pdf It doesn't look like there is a market for these worth the bother of listing them on eBay. Free for the cost of covering postage from Seattle, WA if anyone wants them. -Glen From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 16:02:06 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:02:06 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:59 AM, tony duell wrote: > Some more random thoughts.... >> >> Of the above 10 pins, 11, 13, 22 & 23 are high at power-up (printer >> NOT connected to any interface). The only pin with known function is >> 19, which is 'paper out'; if I toggle the paper out switch I can see >> it going high and low. > > Well, 19 could be a general printer-ready pin in that if the paper runs > out it would say the printer is not ready for another character but > it might well also be put to the not-ready state when the printer > was printing the current character. Seen that before. Maybe, but Selectrics aren't exactly fast devices; there's a whole lot of potential 'no, wait, I'm not ready!' conditions. Would they all be ORed onto one pin? > Also, having now looked at the photos (sorry I was rushed before) I > am pretty sure that Allen Bradley package is a pull-up resistor > array. Half the pins seem to go to the +5V trace. The others go > to signals Confirmed off-list; it's a resistor network; 14 pins, seven resistors. > Remember that a pulled-up logic input will test as a high level. So some > or all of the 'high' pins might be inputs. True and possible. But even if they're ALL inputs, only seven of them? > I notice the 3 chips with the Pn lables. I think I can make out a Harris > logo on one of them. I would guess these are programmed PROMs > to convert between ASCII (I hope) and the solenoid codes for the > Selectric. That was my conclusion too. The old Western I/O ads I've seen definitely refer to it as having an 'ASCII' or 'parallel' interface. Assuming they only ever made the two models; I suppose it *could* be some variant of RS232, with very non-standard pinouts - but the ads are specific; they made a smart terminal with 6800 CPU & serial interface, and a dumb printer with an 'ASCII parallel' interface. And that's all I have to go on, beyond prodding the hardware. > The next thing of interest to me is the pair of 7475 latches at the bottom > of the board. 4 bits each. Maybe hold the 8 bit input character. I would > trace where the D's and Q's of those go first. > > Perhaps you load the character a nybble at a time??? That would be well weird. Still trying to work out what exactly it was intended to hook up to; a standard parallel port with a special cable, using only four of the data lines, and a driver, to drive it nybble-wise? Maybe I could use business records to try to track down the former owner of 'Western I/O' and just ASK him, if he's still alive, but that would be cheating :-) I've gone over the connector again and we have ten signal pins plus a ground plane... that's *just* enough for 8 data bits, a strobe, a ready/wait line... but that Allen Bradley pull-up pack is only 14 leads, 7 lines... I'd expect to see 8 data lines all going to the same place if it was anything resembling standard Centronics but with a weird pinout. So I'm scratching my head still over just exactly what it was supposed to hook up to. > This board does not look that complicated and all the ICs have known > numbers on them (mostly TTL logic). If it were mine I'd trace out the schematic. That's true and possible. I'm in two minds on this thing: - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O serial terminal, using an Arduino-based setup that Lawrence Wilkinson has already built and tested: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/with/9201494189/ - all the keyboard contacts are already in there, Western I/O just cut the IBM wires off when they ripped the IBM guts out and converted it printer-only. I'd like to figure out the interface that's presently in it, just to check out the mechanism, and for that 'ah ha!' moment :) - but I don't want to spend any significant time on it if I'm just going to rip it all out. - but, although the Western I/O conversion 'butchered' a perfectly good IBM 2970, it IS a rare representative of that era, when all kinds of Selectric conversions were commonplace. So perhaps, as a nod to that era, it should be left as-is, as a preserved example? What say people? I've seen posts on old lists where people have referred to buying these back in the day - converted Selectrics I mean - and seeing 'mountains' of them in warehouses. They were once common. Where have they all gone? Is mine the *only* survivor from those mountains of 3rd-party backstreet conversions? Does anyone else have any? I've just spent a few hundred bucks with one of the few mechanical Selectric gurus left standing - a local guy here in NZ who did an amazing job, several broken and seized bits fixed, the mechanism is now like new and works perfectly in typewriter mode - so it's going to end up working, one way or another! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 14 17:53:08 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:53:08 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> I spent a lot of time in my early career on Allen-Bradley PLC 3's & 5's. They were definitely computers - no screens, and obviously purpose built for process control. But then I started thinking... the HP 2100's that are the focus of my collecting, very often (usually, actually) didn't have system consoles. They were used primarily for test & measurement. And this wasn't just the earliest models; I acquired quite a few later full rack (21MX/E) systems that did not have a console board in them. They were booted via switch register settings and set about their task. Various changes to operation were made strictly via switch register. Then I recalled one of the early Educational BASIC HP systems (No, not TSB). It accepted BASIC programs from punched cards *only*. Output was to the printer. I can't recall what it was. I believe it used a TTY for initial configuration, but not thereafter. In any case... early computers without screens weren't necessarily so "early" in the scheme of things, and often did process control and test & measurement :) J From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:27:26 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:27:26 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1323EA3A-9FB8-47DC-9A52-91D259E78CDA@gmail.com> > On Dec 14, 2015, at 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: >> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? > > > I'll add my perspective. My first exposure to the use of computers came from my father, who was a mechanical engineering professor at TU Eindhoven, doing precision measurement. He used the university's computer (there was a single computer serving most of the university's needs) to do analysis of the test results. For example, one instrument was an interferometer, which would measure positions in terms of wavelength (1/8th of the wavelength of a very stable helium-neon laser). Those measurements were punched on paper tape by custom hardware, along with temperature and humidity observations. The software would read those numbers, adjust the measurements to account for temperature (which changes both wavelength and the size of the test object) and humidity (which affects wavelength). The results could be printed, but often would be shown graphically using a plotter (drum plotter). > > A plotter is a pretty simple device, involving a pen that can move across paper in X and Y directions, usually with stepper motors, and a solenoid to raise or lower the pen. Some had multiple pens (different color or size). A "flat bed" plotter has an X/Y carriage moving over a flat table on which the paper is mounted. A drum plotter has a carriage for one axis moving along a drum a few inches diameter, which transports paper (a long roll) in the other direction. > > This stuff used the "THE" operating system, an early multi-process operating system and the first to use rigorous design for correctness and clean structure. User input was via paper tape, for programs and data; output could be paper tape, line printer output, or plotter output. There were some magnetic tapes as well, I'm not sure how those were used. The OS used a magnetic drum (similar to a disk drive, older but for those days quite fast) for virtual memory (code and data) and for buffering I/O data streams for paper tape, printer, and plotter. > > paul > Thank you Paul for that reply I have learned more about the history in the short time I have been on here than I have if I would have spent 10 bagillion dollars in collage I'm just a busted up old welder now but I wet to collage for that and it was not cheap I could not even fathom what it would cost to have a teaching degree in computer science.... Again thank you very much for your input you a humble me greatly and I have the highest respect for all the pioneers of the computers rocky road some of you have went down. From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 13:46:14 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 13:46:14 -0600 Subject: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> On Dec 13, 2015, at 1:20 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did >> > the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the >> > data on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English? >> You COULD read the holes, if you really HAD to. Keypunches printed >> the alphanumeric form on the top edge of the cards. if you punched a >> deck of cards on the CPU's card punch, there was no printing. If it >> was an "object deck" ie. binary code, you would never "interpret" the >> deck. But, if it had something that might be human readable, there >> was a machine called an interpreter, and it would type the symbols on >> the top of the card for you. > > At > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#/media/File:Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png > is a picture of a card. It was punched with a printing punch, or run through a 029 series interpreter punch, NOT with an INTERPRETER, which didn't line up what it printed with the columns (too large a font to do so), and couldn't interpret and run COBOL anyway. > > Notice the punches used for the numbers. > The rows above '0' were called 'Y' and 'X' > Now look at the punches used for 'A' and 'B', and the relationship between them. > Now look at 'K', and compare it with 'J', 'L', and 'B' > Now look at 'T', and compare it with 'S', 'U', 'B', and 'K' > Letters and numbers were a simple easy to learn pattern. I never fully learned the patterns for punctuation characters, and had to often look them up. > > The diagonally cut corner was not always on the left (incompletely standardized) > > > There was another special purpose punch, called a "VERIFIER". > You loaded it up with cards that were already punched, and proceeded to type from the same coding sheet. If the whole card matched, then it put a little notch in the 80 end of the card, to show that its content was confirmed, or "VERIFIED". If the content didn't match, then the VERIFIER put a notch in the top edge of the card above the column that didn't match. > Sometimes service bureaus that were hired to keypunch would verify whole boxes of blank cards. Then they could give their client decks of "VERIFIED" cards, without having to actually rekey the content. Yes, we did run into them. > > > Hanging Chad was a miscarriage of justice. > > > Bury me face down, 9 edge first. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com It almost seems like it was a lot more physical not mental to run computers back in the day. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 17:58:16 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:58:16 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: I am starting to think that the age of the PDP-8 is finally coming to a close. The last bastion of PDP-8ness - controlling machine tools and industrial processes - well, think about that. When was the last time you *actually* *saw* a PDP-8 in production doing this? The US has very little left in the way of machine shops. They have mostly all closed up and moved to China, and the ones that survive do so because they upgraded their machines so their productivity can trump the Chinese currency imbalance. I was at HGR recently, and asked about machine tools and PDP-8s, and the salesman said it has been years since they have seen that stuff. What is coming out now is basically 1980s technology, at the oldest. Most of what they see is 1990s and 2000s. Yes, there are probably a *very* few PDP-8s still out there, but I think that population number is approaching single digits. Here is a challenge - show me a real PDP-8 (or clone) still in active service. I want real evidence, not hearsay. I think it would be great if they were still out there, doing their thing, but I am very skeptical. -- Will On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:16 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > And think of all the PDP-8s *still* buried in the control units of > factories across the world. The majority of these machines had no > displays, not even teleprinters. Some had custom controls wired in through > stock or custom modules, and some had no more "UI" than the front panel > ("set switches 2 and 3 to the 'on' position and press the 'run' key"). > Some didn't even have that - the stock 8/m was a turnkey system. The > reasoning was the same as that behind the microcontroller replacing the > 555: complex behavior could be modeled in software rather than intricate > analog elements, and it was easy to change things if you needed to (e.g., > if you changed out an instrument or effector. -- Ian > > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike wrote: >> >> On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> >> >> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers >> we encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably >> 100 would be a safe bet. >> >> Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard >> and heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of >> my PC. >> > >> > .... if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a >> computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! >> >> Even lighting... I've pulled (and reused!) 8-pin PIC microcontrollers >> out of discarded emergency lighting. "In the old days", a switching >> supply might have a 555 timer for an oscillator. These days, an 8-pin >> uC is cheap ($0.75 or far less) and allows the behavior to be changed >> without a soldering iron, or allows the hardware design to be >> completed and sent out for manufacture before the software is >> complete. If you want to change the frequency of a 555 oscillator, >> you have to design in a potentiometer or remove and install different >> value components. If you want to change the frequency of a uC >> oscillator, you reprogram it (or if you have enough pins, design in >> some removable jumpers). >> >> Short version is, even the cheap and simple 555 has been replaced in >> many products with a cheap-as-or-cheaper-than microcontroller, not >> because it's simpler, but because it allows for greater flexibility >> and reduces the overall product cost. >> >> -ethan >> > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 14 18:21:53 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:21:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: > Maybe, but Selectrics aren't exactly fast devices; there's a whole lot > of potential 'no, wait, I'm not ready!' conditions. Would they all be > ORed onto one pin? possibly. It's been done that way before. > That was my conclusion too. The old Western I/O ads I've seen > definitely refer to it as having an 'ASCII' or 'parallel' interface. > Assuming they only ever made the two models; I suppose it *could* be > some variant of RS232, with very non-standard pinouts - but the ads > are specific; they made a smart terminal with 6800 CPU & serial > interface, and a dumb printer with an 'ASCII parallel' interface. And > that's all I have to go on, beyond prodding the hardware. REMEMBER, "ASCII parallel" does NOT necessarily mean "centronics-style", as was used on TRS80, IBM PC, etc. "Centronics-style" was a good system, but it was NOT the only one. "ASCII parallel" could just as easily mean SEVEN bit, with a bit or two in each direction for handshaking. "ASCII" was SEVEN bits, not EIGHT. > > That would be well weird. Still trying to work out what exactly it was > intended to hook up to; a standard parallel port with a special cable, There was a time, 35 years ago, when "standard parallel" was an oxymoron. > leads, 7 lines... I'd expect to see 8 data lines all going to the same > place if it was anything resembling standard Centronics but with a > weird pinout. So I'm scratching my head still over just exactly what > it was supposed to hook up to. something other than "Centronics"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 14 18:30:56 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <1323EA3A-9FB8-47DC-9A52-91D259E78CDA@gmail.com> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> <1323EA3A-9FB8-47DC-9A52-91D259E78CDA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > Thank you Paul for that reply I have learned more about the history in > the short time I have been on here than I have if I would have spent 10 > bagillion dollars in collage I'm just a busted up old welder now but I > wet to collage for that and it was not cheap I could not even fathom > what it would cost to have a teaching degree in computer science.... Currently, at community college or equivalent level, it requires a Masters degree, with some variations and exceptions. Universities want a PhD. 30 years ago, it required a Masters degree, or a Bachelors degree plus three years professional experienc, or an Associate degree plus six years of professional experience. It was a little easier to get into the field in those days. > Again thank you very much for your input you a humble me greatly and I > have the highest respect for all the pioneers of the computers rocky > road some of you have went down. Yeah, but what a ride! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jason at smbfc.net Mon Dec 14 19:13:54 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:13:54 -0800 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566F6952.1030306@smbfc.net> On 12/13/2015 10:17 AM, william degnan wrote: > I have found that most vintage ribbons can be replaced with new ribbons for > new devices. Worst case you may find the right width but you'll have to > re-thread to fit the vintage spindle. Just have to match the width. > > I recently bought new ribbons for Decwriter II and TI Omni 810 without any > problem. > > Bill > I'm having this issue right now with a Panasonic printer. The black ink ribbons are still a dime/dozen. The 4-color ribbons are NLA from Panasonic and finding them is proving to get quite difficult. I'd be more than happy to re-thread a cartridge, but where does one find CMYK 1 inch fabric ribbon? -Jason From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 19:21:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:21:01 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> On 12/14/2015 03:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > In any case... early computers without screens weren't necessarily so > "early" in the scheme of things, and often did process control and > test & measurement :) The IBM 1710 didn't have a screen; neither did the 1800. Personally, I think the world is GUI-addicted. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 19:48:09 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:48:09 -0600 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you need 6522 chip(s) please contact me off-list - I have more than I need, would be happy to pass one along to a needy drive.. On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 5:32 PM, dwight wrote: > > Do remember when ordering 2114's that these are all NOS units > and just about as likely to be bad as the ones in your unit. > I don't know of any surplus place that has the ability to test them. > Most any of the places that I've dealt with will replace bad ones > but if dealing by mail order, it may not be worth the hassle. > Order a few extras. > Dwight > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 14 20:05:08 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:05:08 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <1EFD2EAB-0664-43FF-A578-F51B333E21AA@gmail.com> <5668C574.7090606@gmail.com> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 14, 2015, at 2:46 PM, Mike wrote: > > ... >> >> At >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card#/media/File:Blue-punch-card-front-horiz.png >> is a picture of a card. It was punched with a printing punch, or run through a 029 series interpreter punch, NOT with an INTERPRETER, which didn't line up what it printed with the columns (too large a font to do so), and couldn't interpret and run COBOL anyway. >> >> Notice the punches used for the numbers. >> The rows above '0' were called 'Y' and 'X' I've only ever seen them called "12" and "11" for the top and next rows respectively. For example, the card code listing on the IBM 360 "green card" shows them that way (e.g., A is 12-1). paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 19:54:08 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:54:08 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: >> That was my conclusion too. The old Western I/O ads I've seen >> definitely refer to it as having an 'ASCII' or 'parallel' interface. >> Assuming they only ever made the two models; I suppose it *could* be >> some variant of RS232, with very non-standard pinouts - but the ads >> are specific; they made a smart terminal with 6800 CPU & serial >> interface, and a dumb printer with an 'ASCII parallel' interface. And >> that's all I have to go on, beyond prodding the hardware. > > > REMEMBER, "ASCII parallel" does NOT necessarily mean "centronics-style", as > was used on TRS80, IBM PC, etc. "Centronics-style" was a good system, but > it was NOT the only one. > "ASCII parallel" could just as easily mean SEVEN bit, with a bit or two in > each direction for handshaking. "ASCII" was SEVEN bits, not EIGHT. I guessed that might be the case... any suggestions for what were common pinouts and signals used? I can analyze 'backwards', testing possible suggestions, as fast or faster than I can do it 'forwards', trying to recreate a schematic from examination of the hardware. It sounds a lot like what we have here. But I'm not certain a modern standard parallel port can ever be trivially adapted to drive this thing... > There was a time, 35 years ago, when "standard parallel" was an oxymoron. > >> leads, 7 lines... I'd expect to see 8 data lines all going to the same >> place if it was anything resembling standard Centronics but with a >> weird pinout. So I'm scratching my head still over just exactly what >> it was supposed to hook up to. > > > something other than "Centronics"? I thought Centronics dated back to early 1970s - not always in the standard 'modern' form, but in general principles with same signaling and strobing of data. Thanks for input! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 19:37:48 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:37:48 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> Message-ID: > The IBM 1710 didn't have a screen; neither did the 1800. It was an option on the 1800, using a cheap TV. I have docs (not much) for it. -- Will From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 20:15:23 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:15:23 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2015-12-14 17:12 GMT+01:00 william degnan : > > > Just to change the subject.. > > > > There were "S" and an "NC" version of 11/05 high profile system. Why? > > > > I am curious if any DEC historians here know the reason for two versions > of > > the same DEC PDP 11/05 *high profile* computer (not talking about the low > > profile). There are separate manuals for each type. > > > > Age? The NC (and ND if you are in 230VAC area) are in the BA11-D chassis > which uses the H750 PSU. The same chassis was used by for example 11/35. > The H750 PSU has partly the same assemblies as the low PDP-11/05 chassis > and then also a H744. The memory system is somewhat different in that the > H214 is 8kW and the H217 is 16kW and the former is used in the NC/ND while > the S uses the latter. > > But of course there can be all sorts of other reasons as well. > > /Mattis > > > > Yes I did know that power supplies and RAM are different within the two versions, being that have both types of 11/05. That's what prompted my question - *why* did they make these two versions of the high-profile 11/05? What was one used for vs. the other? *Why did DEC do this*? It is simply that as long as the box had the M7260/M7261 CPU cards it was an "11/05"? (or 11/10) Those of you who knew DEC back then may have a perspective I don't on the subject. Seems to me that they did not care, they just used what they had available. -- Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 14 20:15:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:15:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: > I thought Centronics dated back to early 1970s - not always in the > standard 'modern' form, but in general principles with same signaling > and strobing of data. I got in late. My first encounter with Centronics was TRS80 (1979?) At that time, Centronics did not yet have a monopoly on parallel "protocols", although the company had certainly been around for a while. Once they got the TRS80 market, and then the IBM PC market, any other designs faded away fast. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 20:17:29 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:17:29 -0500 Subject: CBM 1541 drive faults In-Reply-To: References: <566CC360.7030409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 6:32 PM, dwight wrote: > Do remember when ordering 2114's that these are all NOS units > and just about as likely to be bad as the ones in your unit. Too true. NOS doesn't mean it's working. > I don't know of any surplus place that has the ability to test them. Or the interestg. > Most any of the places that I've dealt with will replace bad ones > but if dealing by mail order, it may not be worth the hassle. > Order a few extras. That reminds me, I need to make a quickie little microcontroller-based 2114 tester. I have tubes of the chips (NOS from 1982 - we used them in the COMBOARD 1) and no confidence of which ones work and which ones do not. I'm sure 98% or more work. Which 98% is the question. It's not hard to make one with a <$10 microcontroller. It's just a question of sitting down and building it. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 20:58:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 18:58:11 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <566F81C3.50604@sydex.com> On 12/14/2015 06:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I got in late. My first encounter with Centronics was TRS80 (1979?) > At that time, Centronics did not yet have a monopoly on parallel > "protocols", although the company had certainly been around for a > while. Once they got the TRS80 market, and then the IBM PC market, > any other designs faded away fast. The other common interface was the Dataproducts--IMOHO, a much better one. The usual DP connector was a 4-row job (I don't know what the connector part number was), but DC-37 was also an option. I think DP used 220/330 termination on lines, where Centronics was a simple 1K pullup. There were also differences in signalling--DP has both "ready" and and "online" signals. When I first encountered the Centronics, I thought that it required OC drivers, but apparently totem-pole was good enough for IBM, something which surprised me. Most medium-sized line printers around 1980 could be configured for either interface. Otherwise, converters could be purchased inexpensively. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 20:56:39 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:56:39 -0500 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I thought Centronics dated back to early 1970s - not always in the >> standard 'modern' form, but in general principles with same signaling >> and strobing of data. > > I got in late. My first encounter with Centronics was TRS80 (1979?) > At that time, Centronics did not yet have a monopoly on parallel > "protocols", although the company had certainly been around for a while. My first experience was in the mid-1980s. Someone gave me an ancient tank of a Centronics-brand printer - 132 columns and 2 print heads! One head got the left side of the paper, the other head got the right side. Unlike the later "Centronics Interface", this one had an internal edge connector for input - 40 or 44 pins (I used a standard 44-pin protoboard but I can't remember if I had to cut it down or not) I interfaced it to the user port on my Commodore 64 and wrote my own handler to trap device #4 and squirt out the data through the user port. > Once they got the TRS80 market, and then the IBM PC market, any other > designs faded away fast. Yep. About the only exceptions I can think of are the Amiga 1000 (proprietary but similar parallel port pinout on a DB25M) and DEC minicomputers which leaned towards the Dataproducts-type interfaces that required a gate or two (and probably a cable pin swabber) to talk to "modern" Centronics printers - one example was the DC37 on the back of a VAX-11/730... you had to add somewhere between 1-3 inverters to make that talk "Centronics" but once you did, you could just tell the VMS line printer process to squirt chars out the parallel interface and it would "just work". -ethan From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 18:31:57 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:31:57 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> On 12/14/2015 08:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/14/2015 03:53 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> In any case... early computers without screens weren't necessarily so >> "early" in the scheme of things, and often did process control and >> test & measurement :) > > The IBM 1710 didn't have a screen; neither did the 1800. > > Personally, I think the world is GUI-addicted. > > --Chuck > Chuck If I may ask... What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could be done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO DISREPECT by asking this question. From grif615 at mindspring.com Mon Dec 14 21:56:26 2015 From: grif615 at mindspring.com (Grif) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:56:26 -0800 Subject: Identifying Data General (or DG-related) console/terminal/whatsit? Message-ID: "Data General Alumni" ?lots of knowledge there. -------- Original message -------- From: Bruce Ray Date: 12/13/2015 7:09 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Identifying Data General (or DG-related) console/terminal/whatsit? Not identifiable as DG product - 3rd-party custom (graphics?) console for client?? (I can't read logo on bottom of console.) NOAA/NWS AFOS system had similar-looking system with interesting trackball/keyboard combination.? Then there was GE Medical... Bruce Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 12/13/2015 5:22 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > A friend of mine is investigating picking up some DG hardware, and this > item: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dg/dg%20console.jpg > > Is included along with the rest of it.? I *know* I've seen something > like this somewhere but I can't find anything now that I need it :). Can > anyone identify this? > > Thanks, > - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 23:27:03 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:27:03 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566FA4A7.9070401@sydex.com> On 12/14/2015 04:31 PM, Mike wrote: > What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could > be done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO > DISREPECT by asking this question. I saw plenty of early home computers with TTY or Selectric I/O. If you could find a timesharing service to hook your home up in the 60s and early 70s, it was probably with a TTY. (Anyone remember Call Computer in Mountain View?) Consider, for example the Honeywell H-316 "kitchen computer" from 1969: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_316 To the best of my knowledge, it was more of a concept than a real product. But no screen, notice? Legions of high-school and college students before about the mid-70s had no access to screens. If you didn't use punched cards, you probably used a TTY. But then, video output was rare for employees of the computer manufacturers. Too expensive. Paper--lots of it. You did your serious programming with pencil and paper, then punched or entered it. That was the old IDE. Considering the amount of code written, it wasn't too bad. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 14 23:37:00 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:37:00 -0800 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> On 12/14/2015 06:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > I've only ever seen them called "12" and "11" for the top and next > rows respectively. For example, the card code listing on the IBM 360 > "green card" shows them that way (e.g., A is 12-1). Same here. But it's not outside the range of possibility that *someone* called them X and Y, although I don't know who did. Doug Jones doesn't mention it. Let's not forget the System/3 96-column cards. BA8421 (sort of like 7-track mag tape), with a really wacky way to combine the columns to make 8-bit bytes. Univac, of course, had their own system with their double-45 column system, round holes and all. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 00:21:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:21:20 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy Message-ID: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> Just finished reading a 9 track tape made with IBM CMS in its dumpfile format. Why on earth--or might I say, what idiot--designed this format? First the file data in a series of records, *then* the file name and other metadata. Anyone know of a DOS/Windows/Unix utility to unravel one of these things? I don't feel too much like coding for a single tape. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 14 23:06:00 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:06:00 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-14, at 2:02 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O > serial terminal, using an Arduino-based setup that Lawrence Wilkinson > has already built and tested: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/with/9201494189/ > - all the keyboard contacts are already in there, Western I/O just cut > the IBM wires off when they ripped the IBM guts out and converted it > printer-only. I'd like to figure out the interface that's presently in > it, just to check out the mechanism, and for that 'ah ha!' moment :) > - but I don't want to spend any significant time on it if I'm just > going to rip it all out. > > - but, although the Western I/O conversion 'butchered' a perfectly > good IBM 2970, it IS a rare representative of that era, when all kinds > of Selectric conversions were commonplace. So perhaps, as a nod to > that era, it should be left as-is, as a preserved example? What say > people? I've seen posts on old lists where people have referred to > buying these back in the day - converted Selectrics I mean - and > seeing 'mountains' of them in warehouses. They were once common. Where > have they all gone? Is mine the *only* survivor from those mountains > of 3rd-party backstreet conversions? Does anyone else have any? > > I've just spent a few hundred bucks with one of the few mechanical > Selectric gurus left standing - a local guy here in NZ who did an > amazing job, several broken and seized bits fixed, the mechanism is > now like new and works perfectly in typewriter mode - so it's going to > end up working, one way or another! Well, I vote for doing a little more work to get it working as is. If it's all there, it 'should' work as intended and really doesn't look to be very complex. Chances look good it will be adaptable to a centronics port. Pin 9-11 & 21-24 connect to the pull-up resistors and head in the the direction of the 7475 DFFs - that's likely the 7 data bits. Traces from the DFFs look like they then head to the proms which are likely 3 * 256*4. That leaves 13,17,19 for some combination of control signals such as print-strobe-in, ready-out, fault-out. I notice there is an MC14490 hex contact debouncer there. You say this is not a keyboard-send conversion, so I'd guess those debouncers may be picking up mechanical contacts that indicate end-of-operation, to produce a ready signal. If reverse engineering really isn't your shtick, send along reasonable-resolution photos of both sides of the board and I'll work on a schematic. Could do it with the photos you provided earlier except the solder-side photo isn't complete. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 14 22:24:54 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 23:24:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC Message-ID: <20151215042454.8532118C0D8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > *why* did they make these two versions of the high-profile 11/05? > What was one used for vs. the other? *Why did DEC do this*? Check the dates on the machines. I'm pretty sure the -NC is the earlier version, with the bespoke H750 power supply (mounted alongside the boards, not at the end of the box as with the BA11-K, the basis for the -S). My guess as to why they upgraded from the -NC to the -S is that the latter used the H765 (plus 'bricks') power supply system, in common with the BA11-K and also the later PDP-11's (40's, 45's, etc). That probably provided a raft of advantages, including i) greater flexibility in the current and voltages being supplied, and ii) commonality with DEC's other machines (i.e. lower unit cost -> great per machine profit margin). The BA11-K based -S also (by being a couple of inches longer, and mounting the power supply off the back) had a couple of inches more width for boards, enough to hold an extra quad system unit. And the H765 may have been technically superior to the H750, too. Noel From kspt.tor at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 03:29:41 2015 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:29:41 +0100 Subject: What did computers without screens do? Message-ID: On 15 December 2015 at 01:31, Mike wrote: > > On 12/14/2015 08:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Personally, I think the world is GUI-addicted. >> >> --Chuck >> > Chuck If I may ask... > > > What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could be > done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO DISREPECT > by asking this question. I'll jump in here - take the current microcontroller hobby segment. You have PIC, or AVR, or Propeller based setups which is used for all kind of things like programmed robots, model cars, drones and RC planes, home control, model trains, temperature- and humidity controlled garden greenhouses, chicken shed day/night door control, and numerous other uses. These things are computers, a Propeller, for example, is an 8-core 32-bit small computer all in one chip. Usually these things have no screen and no keyboard connected. So you program them by various other means, e.g. through a serial interface. For the programming part of it (or the preparation of what you load via the serial interface, or jtag or e.g. a flash or eeprom chip) you'll need something else, today that's usually a PC, but that's conceptually the same thing as in times past where you used a terminal or some device with a keyboard to prepare punched cards or paper tape. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 23:44:21 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 06:44:21 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2015-12-15 3:15 GMT+01:00 william degnan : > On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > 2015-12-14 17:12 GMT+01:00 william degnan : > > > > > Just to change the subject.. > > > > > > There were "S" and an "NC" version of 11/05 high profile system. Why? > > > > > > I am curious if any DEC historians here know the reason for two > versions > > of > > > the same DEC PDP 11/05 *high profile* computer (not talking about the > low > > > profile). There are separate manuals for each type. > > > > > > > Age? The NC (and ND if you are in 230VAC area) are in the BA11-D chassis > > which uses the H750 PSU. The same chassis was used by for example 11/35. > > The H750 PSU has partly the same assemblies as the low PDP-11/05 chassis > > and then also a H744. The memory system is somewhat different in that the > > H214 is 8kW and the H217 is 16kW and the former is used in the NC/ND > while > > the S uses the latter. > > > > But of course there can be all sorts of other reasons as well. > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > > > Yes I did know that power supplies and RAM are different within the two > versions, being that have both types of 11/05. That's what prompted my > question - *why* did they make these two versions of the high-profile > 11/05? What was one used for vs. the other? *Why did DEC do this*? > > It is simply that as long as the box had the M7260/M7261 CPU cards it was > an "11/05"? (or 11/10) > > Those of you who knew DEC back then may have a perspective I don't on the > subject. Seems to me that they did not care, they just used what they had > available. > Yes, and my guess that they are of different vintage. The BA11-D is the older box used for the NC and the BA11-K is the more modern box used for the S model. Over the years the memory requirements increased and thus they had to increase the density. I think the NC/ND models are the first 11/05s along with the low cabinet model. The a few years later the S model was added. /Mattis > > -- > Bill > From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 23:54:09 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:54:09 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals Message-ID: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> > - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O serial terminal, using an Arduino-based setup > that Lawrence Wilkinson has already built and tested: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/with/9201494189/ Looks very nice! Is there documentation for it somewhere? I also have a Selectric (unfortunately it's located distant from me at the moment so I can't provide particulars) that I worked on interfacing to a micro in the mid-70's. I was using a MC6800 in my recollection, but I don't believe that I ever achieved operational status. Presumably I was working from an article in one of the hobbyist magazines of the era. I would have guessed Byte, but that doesn't seem to be the case based on recent search. Any hints from folks on what magazine/article that might have been? The Selectric wasn't one of the curvy(ier) office models; I recall it being a rather boxy affair with plenty of right-angles on the housing and a medium shade of blue -- presumably "IBM Blue". Rather utilitarian in design. Even *more* utilitarian than this one: http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/selectric/100112-Selectric-in-situ.jpg It included a full keyboard. I'm not sure anymore whether it operated in local-mode or was set up as two separate devices and therefore needed to be connected up to a remote controller to get local copy. It might have been a rehoused Selectric mechanism in a third-party enclosure and the IBM-like color a red herring. My recollection is that it was longer front-to-back; presumably the rearward extension housed the additional electronics. I have absolutely no idea how I acquired it. No luck finding a matching photo online as yet. I believe that the Selectric came configured for remote operation, but presumably using an EBCDIC-based data stream. I vaguely recall a DB-50 connector, but it's been an awfully long time ... Does this description sound familiar to anyone? ----- paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 15 00:49:52 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 06:49:52 -0000 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 14 December 2015 22:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? > > Before I chuck these in the recycle bin, does anyone want a copies of > DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager? > > I have two boxes, QB-4QYAA-SA 3.2 sealed in shrink wrap, and QB-4QYAA-SA > 3.3 open box that is slightly crushed. > > The boxes (at least the still sealed one) look like this eBay item (not mine) > listing: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/321413114710 > > The DIGITAL ServerWORKS? Manager Installation and User Guide in the QB- > 4QYAA-SA 3.3 open box is the ER-4QXAA-UA. G01 version of the ER-4QXAA- > UA. H01 manual here: > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/mds- > 199909/cd2/network/4qxaauah.pdf > > It doesn't look like there is a market for these worth the bother of listing > them on eBay. Free for the cost of covering postage from Seattle, WA if > anyone wants them. > Seems a shame to throw them away. What would postage of these to the UK cost? Regards Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Dec 15 03:39:18 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:39:18 +0000 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <566FDFC6.7070503@btinternet.com> On 15/12/2015 00:31, Mike wrote: > > On 12/14/2015 08:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 12/14/2015 03:53 PM, Jay West wrote: >> >>> In any case... early computers without screens weren't necessarily so >>> "early" in the scheme of things, and often did process control and >>> test & measurement :) >> The IBM 1710 didn't have a screen; neither did the 1800. >> >> Personally, I think the world is GUI-addicted. >> >> --Chuck >> > Chuck If I may ask... > > > What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could be > done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO DISREPECT > by asking this question. I started with computers around 1964. It depends what you define as a screen. From the first UK computer (U of M circa 1948) many systems had screens. They were oscilloscope tube based. The first one's I know of showed a line of dots Dot present = 1 No dot =0 they were probably register displays. So right away you are into binary. Its the underlying foundation of all digital computers. Lamps and switches are all you need for binary and boy is binary useful!! Analog computers are interesting but you really need degree level maths to get the best out of them. Rod Smallwood From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:32:31 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 02:32:31 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Solder side pic sent to your email! Thanks! On Dec 16, 2015 2:22 AM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > On 2015-Dec-14, at 2:02 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > > > - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O > > serial terminal, using an Arduino-based setup that Lawrence Wilkinson > > has already built and tested: > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/with/9201494189/ > > - all the keyboard contacts are already in there, Western I/O just cut > > the IBM wires off when they ripped the IBM guts out and converted it > > printer-only. I'd like to figure out the interface that's presently in > > it, just to check out the mechanism, and for that 'ah ha!' moment :) > > - but I don't want to spend any significant time on it if I'm just > > going to rip it all out. > > > > - but, although the Western I/O conversion 'butchered' a perfectly > > good IBM 2970, it IS a rare representative of that era, when all kinds > > of Selectric conversions were commonplace. So perhaps, as a nod to > > that era, it should be left as-is, as a preserved example? What say > > people? I've seen posts on old lists where people have referred to > > buying these back in the day - converted Selectrics I mean - and > > seeing 'mountains' of them in warehouses. They were once common. Where > > have they all gone? Is mine the *only* survivor from those mountains > > of 3rd-party backstreet conversions? Does anyone else have any? > > > > I've just spent a few hundred bucks with one of the few mechanical > > Selectric gurus left standing - a local guy here in NZ who did an > > amazing job, several broken and seized bits fixed, the mechanism is > > now like new and works perfectly in typewriter mode - so it's going to > > end up working, one way or another! > > Well, I vote for doing a little more work to get it working as is. > If it's all there, it 'should' work as intended and really doesn't look to > be very complex. > Chances look good it will be adaptable to a centronics port. > > Pin 9-11 & 21-24 connect to the pull-up resistors and head in the the > direction of the 7475 DFFs - that's likely the 7 data bits. > Traces from the DFFs look like they then head to the proms which are > likely 3 * 256*4. > That leaves 13,17,19 for some combination of control signals such as > print-strobe-in, ready-out, fault-out. > > I notice there is an MC14490 hex contact debouncer there. You say this is > not a keyboard-send conversion, so I'd guess those debouncers may be > picking up mechanical contacts that indicate end-of-operation, to produce a > ready signal. > > If reverse engineering really isn't your shtick, send along > reasonable-resolution photos of both sides of the board and I'll work on a > schematic. > Could do it with the photos you provided earlier except the solder-side > photo isn't complete. > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 07:48:42 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:48:42 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/05 S vs 11/05 NC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > Yes, and my guess that they are of different vintage. The BA11-D is the > older box used for the NC and the BA11-K is the more modern box used for > the S model. Over the years the memory requirements increased and thus they > had to increase the density. > > I think the NC/ND models are the first 11/05s along with the low cabinet > model. The a few years later the S model was added. > > /Mattis > > OK. My instinct was to suspect this, but I was unsure because I started with a bare BA11-K and empty H765, and then located the cards and brick regulators described in the DEC docs to determine and pick correct parts to complete the system. I have been using the 11/05 S in the BA11-K as a "bench" UNIBUS system for testing UNIBUS cards, I don't intend to rack this one up. I don't even have a front panel bracket or cover. The front panel is attached with two screws laced through the rack mount holes and into the screw opening of the two top front panel holes. Works well enough for testing purposes. I loaded BASIC into core as if it were an 8K system and left the top 8K open for other things. My NC model has just the 8K. Bill From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 14 18:28:16 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:28:16 -0500 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <566F6952.1030306@smbfc.net> References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> <566F6952.1030306@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <566F5EA0.5020209@gmail.com> On 12/14/2015 08:13 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > On 12/13/2015 10:17 AM, william degnan wrote: >> I have found that most vintage ribbons can be replaced with new >> ribbons for >> new devices. Worst case you may find the right width but you'll have to >> re-thread to fit the vintage spindle. Just have to match the width. >> >> I recently bought new ribbons for Decwriter II and TI Omni 810 >> without any >> problem. >> >> Bill >> > I'm having this issue right now with a Panasonic printer. The black > ink ribbons are still a dime/dozen. The 4-color ribbons are NLA from > Panasonic and finding them is proving to get quite difficult. > > I'd be more than happy to re-thread a cartridge, but where does one > find CMYK 1 inch fabric ribbon? > > -Jason Jason, Is it cheaper to do it that way luckily I got 40 new ribbon cartrages with my C-64 purchase.. Do they have screws or are they hot glued together? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 09:19:12 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:19:12 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > > Well, 19 could be a general printer-ready pin in that if the paper runs > > out it would say the printer is not ready for another character but > > it might well also be put to the not-ready state when the printer > > was printing the current character. Seen that before. > > Maybe, but Selectrics aren't exactly fast devices; there's a whole lot > of potential 'no, wait, I'm not ready!' conditions. Would they all be > ORed onto one pin? Why not? It's all the host really needs to know -- can I send another character or not. [...] > I've gone over the connector again and we have ten signal pins plus a > ground plane... that's *just* enough for 8 data bits, a strobe, a > ready/wait line... but that Allen Bradley pull-up pack is only 14 Why 8 data bits? ASCII (which we are assuming this is) is a 7 bit code. A number of older printers did indeed only have 7 parallel data lines. > > This board does not look that complicated and all the ICs have known > > numbers on them (mostly TTL logic). If it were mine I'd trace out the schematic. > > That's true and possible. I'm in two minds on this thing: I reckon it would take me a couple of hours at most..... > - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O > serial terminal, using an Arduino-based setup that Lawrence Wilkinson > has already built and tested: In some ways I agree with doing that (other than using a a million more components than you need...). On the other hand this board is part of the history of the unit, so I would keep that if at all possible I think. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Dec 15 09:27:31 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:27:31 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> > On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:54 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > ... > I believe that the Selectric came configured for remote operation, but presumably using an EBCDIC-based data stream. I vaguely recall a DB-50 connector, but it's been an awfully long time ... > > Does this description sound familiar to anyone? For a while, RSTS/E supported 2741 terminals, which are Selectric terminals with a UART interface. It wasn't EBCDIC -- instead, it had one of several possible conversion tables. I forgot the number of bits per character. Also, the speed used was peculiar: 134.5 bits per second. 2741 support was dropped at some point; I think V7 has it but it disappeared by V9 if not sooner. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 09:37:07 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:37:07 -0400 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <567033A3.9020304@gmail.com> On 2015-12-15 1:54 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Looks very nice! Is there documentation for it somewhere? I also have > a Selectric (unfortunately it's located distant from me at the moment > so I can't provide particulars) that I worked on interfacing to a > micro in the mid-70's. I was using a MC6800 in my recollection, but I > don't believe that I ever achieved operational status. Presumably I > was working from an article in one of the hobbyist magazines of the > era. I would have guessed Byte, but that doesn't seem to be the case > based on recent search. Any hints from folks on what magazine/article > that might have been? The Selectric wasn't one of the curvy(ier) > office models; I recall it being a rather boxy affair with plenty of > right-angles on the housing and a medium shade of blue -- presumably > "IBM Blue". Rather utilitarian in design. Even *more* utilitarian than > this one: > http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/selectric/100112-Selectric-in-situ.jpg > It included a full keyboard. I'm not sure anymore whether it operated > in local-mode or was set up as two separate devices and therefore > needed to be connected up to a remote controller to get local copy. It > might have been a rehoused Selectric mechanism in a third-party > enclosure and the IBM-like color a red herring. My recollection is > that it was longer front-to-back; presumably the rearward extension > housed the additional electronics. I have absolutely no idea how I > acquired it. No luck finding a matching photo online as yet. I believe > that the Selectric came configured for remote operation, but > presumably using an EBCDIC-based data stream. I vaguely recall a DB-50 > connector, but it's been an awfully long time ... Does this > description sound familiar to anyone? ----- paul The selectric pictured in your link above is a standard Office Products (OP) Selectric II. Some of the selectric terminals where in a enclosure that was very similar. The 2741, 2741 and 1980 I/O units where in a similar case but where sunk into a cutout in the desk they where mounted in. The 2970 mod 8 and mod 11 banking terminals where in larger boxy enclosures to accommodate extra hardware that was hung on them for banking applications. The 3735 programmable terminal had a Selectric I/O II attached that looked just like an OP Selectric except for some indicator lights and the big cable exiting out the back. None of the Selectric terminals I worked on had any electronics inside, except arc suppression diodes, all of the electronics where housed in an attached control unit. The selectric terminals I worked on where mostly used for banking teller station and finance company terminals. The coding of the data was more geared towards the position of the characters on the type ball with 4 bits for rotate (+1, +1, +2, and -5) and two bits for tilt (+1 and +2) and there where also code points allocated to function such as tab, CR + LF, space, shift up and shift down. The relation of the code point to the graphic printed depended on the layout of the type ball being used, and they where not always the same as the OP selectric. The type ball used by the banks for instance, was laid out so that no two numbers where adjacent to each other on the type ball to lessen the risk of printing an incorrect number. Paul. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 09:35:59 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:35:59 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > I guessed that might be the case... any suggestions for what were > common pinouts and signals used? I can analyze 'backwards', testing There were just about as many parallel interface versions as devices that used them back then..... Nothing 'common' really... The idea of 7 or 8 data lines, a strobe, and a ready signal was certainly arround back then, but the timing, polarity (active high or low) and timing were not standardised. A couple of examples that I can see without getting up are the Facit 4070 paper tape punch and the HP9866A thermal printer. Those were both around in the early-mid 1970s and are rather different parallel interface. OK, what I would do to get some idea is focus on those 7475 chips. Get the pinout. The most obvious use for them on this board is as the character input latch. IIRC each is really 2 2-bit latches, so 2 enable/clock pins on each chip. So : 1) Are the 4 clock pins linked together (if so, it loads a character at a time [1]), or are they in pairs or what 2) Where do the D inputs go? Are any of them linked together, or do 7 or 8 of them go to the interface connector? If the latter, then those are the data inputs. [1] Before anyone suggests you could use them as a sort-of shift register and load half a character into one, then copy it into the second one while loading the other half character, remember the 7475 is a transparent latch, not an edge-triggered flip-flop making this a very difficult thing to do. If you can identify the data lines on the connector you are getting there. See if you can trace the other pins to inputs or outputs. -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 09:33:07 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:33:07 -0000 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 15 December 2015 05:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Display-less computing > > On 12/14/2015 06:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > I've only ever seen them called "12" and "11" for the top and next > > rows respectively. For example, the card code listing on the IBM 360 > > "green card" shows them that way (e.g., A is 12-1). > > Same here. But it's not outside the range of possibility that *someone* > called them X and Y, although I don't know who did. Doug Jones doesn't > mention it. > I have seen ICT punches labelled this way. There is one here where "X" and "Y" have been manually added. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keypunch#/media/File:Hand-operated_Card_Punch- 2.jpg I think the one I own is labelled.... > Let's not forget the System/3 96-column cards. BA8421 (sort of like 7-track > mag tape), with a really wacky way to combine the columns to make 8-bit > bytes. > > Univac, of course, had their own system with their double-45 column system, > round holes and all. > > --Chuck Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 09:37:54 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:37:54 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 15 December 2015 06:21 > To: CCtalk > Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy > > Just finished reading a 9 track tape made with IBM CMS in its dumpfile > format. > > Why on earth--or might I say, what idiot--designed this format? First the file > data in a series of records, *then* the file name and other metadata. > > Anyone know of a DOS/Windows/Unix utility to unravel one of these things? > I don't feel too much like coding for a single tape. > > --Chuck The files are in the same format as on disk. The system just copies them back to disk. What size are the blocks as I have a "C" utility that will read the older smaller block size files. You can always download Hercules and VM/370 .... Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 11:11:57 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:11:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> I've only ever seen them called "12" and "11" for the top and next >>> rows respectively. For example, the card code listing on the IBM 360 >>> "green card" shows them that way (e.g., A is 12-1). >> Same here. But it's not outside the range of possibility that *someone* >> called them X and Y, although I don't know who did. Doug Jones doesn't >> mention it. On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > I have seen ICT punches labelled this way. There is one here where "X" and > "Y" have been manually added. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keypunch#/media/File:Hand-operated_Card_Punch- > 2.jpg > I think the one I own is labelled.... In my experience, they were called 'X'/'Y', or "12"/"11", but there were occasional other names, even "high"/"low". Since the cards were not marked, people could come up with all sorts of other cockamamie choices. > > Let's not forget the System/3 96-column cards. BA8421 (sort of like > > 7-track mag tape), with a really wacky way to combine the columns to > > make 8-bit bytes. > > Univac, of course, had their own system with their double-45 column > > system, round holes and all. There were "window" cards that carried a piece of micro-fiche. Were the makers of those aware of Gldberg's "Rapid-Selector" and/or Vannevar Bush's Memex? (Both of which were motion picture film based microfilm with optical reading of dot patterns for selection) There were even punched cards that also carried a mag-stripe (a transitional device?) I even saw some crude attempts to implement McBee edge sort - set of holes around the perimeter that were linked or not linked with a slot to the edge; poke a knitting needle through the hole(s) and see which ones shook out. Some also carried "normal" punched card data punched on them. Only once did I see a "multi-value" system - multiple holes punched in a column, and edge slot going varying number of holes deep - "I want a value of greater than or equal 3": poke the needle through 3, and 3, 2, and 1 would all shake out. My father claimed that the use of round holes on divergent cards was due to an attempt by IBM to patent the shape of the hole in the cards. He also thought that the development of optical card readers was significantly boosted along by an IBM attempt to patent use of a brass roller. For "The National Driving Test" (CBS 1966?), he had a sample MAIL back port-a-punch (pre-perfed alternate columns) cards! IBM succeeded in reading them! But, IBM's statistical programming resulted in our whole family starting to learn FORTRAN the next day. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 11:30:41 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:30:41 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> On 12/15/2015 07:37 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > The files are in the same format as on disk. The system just copies > them back to disk. What size are the blocks as I have a "C" utility > that will read the older smaller block size files. You can always > download Hercules and VM/370 .... Jim, Dave, Peter, Harry et al.: Thanks for your responses. The customer says that the tape was made during the 1970s on an S/370 system. He doesn't care about the binaries; he'd just like the source code files translated in ASCII. That makes the job quite a bit easier. The general format of the tape looks like this: 34 x 4101 bytes 1 x 2581 bytes 1 x 87 bytes 1 x 177 bytes 1 x 87 bytes 39 x 4101 bytes 1 x 3515 bytes 1 x 87 bytes 39 x 4101 bytes 1 x 3775 bytes 1 x 87 bytes 62 x 4101 bytes 1 x 1013 bytes 1 x 87 bytes 1 x 1125 bytes 1 x 87 bytes ... (2 x file mark) The 87 byte records appear to be the metadata; each block has a 2-character type prefix. I'll have to sit down and suss the rest out, but the 87 byte records appear to contain the file metadata. The content of much of it does appear to be card images--I recognized the first logical record as the travel table from the "Adventure" game, so I expect that complete source is there. If anyone gets a lightning strike about this, I can check it out. Thanks again, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 15 11:22:25 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:22:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566FA4A7.9070401@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> <566FA4A7.9070401@sydex.com> Message-ID: > What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could > be done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO > DISREPECT by asking this question. Use the lights. Wish for a teletype Buy Don Lancaster's books (How many copies did he sell?) Not having a screen made it a little more difficult to answer the inevitable, "What is it good for?" "What can you do with it?" The answer of course was that a hobby/home computer had exactly the same usefulness as a model train going round and round. You could speculate about maybe someday making the train deliver beer, or making the home/hobby computer do "home automation" (turn lights on and off) or bookkeeping, or filing recipes, keeping track of phone numbers, etc. Most of the "uses" were better handled by magnets on the door of the refrigerator. Once you had a screen and printer, word processing became the first practical use, followed by Visicalc and Flight Simulator. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 15 11:23:48 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:23:48 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56704CA4.4080607@pico-systems.com> On 12/14/2015 06:31 PM, Mike wrote: > > > > What would you do with a home no screen computer? I mean what could be > done with one that would benefit your work / hobby. I mean NO DISREPECT > by asking this question. > Well, that would severely limit things. But, it could still be useful. I have one app that runs on my home everything-server, that doesn't have a normal screen. It takes temperature, humidity and energy consumption measurements and records them to a file every 15 seconds. it also puts time, date, temp and humidity on some 20-character LCD screens around the house. So, that is SORT OF a screen, but not in the traditional sense of an interactive terminal. My laser photoplotter has no screen or other HMI connected to it, just a network cable. So, I log into it from another computer to make artwork films. A lot of people have 3D printers with no screen at all, or a very limited LCD screen that lets them set a few options and shows the percentage progress of the build. Oh, for the lowest possible case, I have a computer-controlled air compressor. This is an AVR chip which manages starting/stopping the motor and loading/unloading the compressor valves. (This is called automatic dual-mode control, when the tank is full, it unloads the compressor and leaves the motor running for a minute to see if there is more demand for air before shutting it off.) Jon From gerardcjat at free.fr Tue Dec 15 12:34:53 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:34:53 +0100 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 Message-ID: <9960019B60B34572B1D355BC1D802712@medion> HI, I would take the bet that this IC is simply a R network, 1 KOhm, 1 resistor "across" ie from pin 1 to opposite pin, from pin 2 to opposite pin, etc .... What about simple and quick Ohmmeter check ?? --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 15 11:09:03 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:09:03 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55D8CA38-6CEC-4C6A-89EF-75459009D5BB@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 14, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Just finished reading a 9 track tape made with IBM CMS in its dumpfile format. > > Why on earth--or might I say, what idiot--designed this format? First the file data in a series of records, *then* the file name and other metadata. > > Anyone know of a DOS/Windows/Unix utility to unravel one of these things? I don't feel too much like coding for a single tape. > Use VM/370 under Hercules to read in the dumpfile tape and write it back out in either AWS or HET format. TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 15 12:19:31 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:19:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201512151819.NAA10861@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [T]here's a whole lot of potential 'no, wait, I'm not ready!' >> conditions. Would they all be ORed onto one pin? > Why not? It's all the host really needs to know -- can I send > another character or not. Well...it can be very nice for the host to report "out of paper" differently from "paper jam" differently from "motor or position encoder failure" differently from "failed selftest" etc. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 11:42:58 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56705122.6020100@gmail.com> On 2015-12-15 11:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:54 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> ... >> I believe that the Selectric came configured for remote operation, but presumably using an EBCDIC-based data stream. I vaguely recall a DB-50 connector, but it's been an awfully long time ... >> >> Does this description sound familiar to anyone? > For a while, RSTS/E supported 2741 terminals, which are Selectric terminals with a UART interface. It wasn't EBCDIC -- instead, it had one of several possible conversion tables. I forgot the number of bits per character. Also, the speed used was peculiar: 134.5 bits per second. 2741 support was dropped at some point; I think V7 has it but it disappeared by V9 if not sooner. > > paul > > They used a 6 bit code with odd parity so some of the code sheets refer to it as a 7 bit code because they include the "C" parity bit. Paul. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 15 11:51:06 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:51:06 +0000 Subject: Making a serial board for Briel Altair Micro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Needs some more for the read and write controls. Is the address latched from the altairmicro? if not you'll need a latch using the ALE. You need to add a read port for the various status bits. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dave at 661.org Sent: Sunday, December 13, 2015 12:02 AM To: cctalk Subject: Making a serial board for Briel Altair Micro After fiddling around with my Briel Altair Micro, I've come to desire more than just the console serial port. To that end, I read up on the 16550A UART, line drivers, line receivers, and schematics for other implementations of serial ports. I came up with this: http://661.org/tmp/altairmicro-serial.pdf How close am I to this design making sense and working? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 13:23:04 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:23:04 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <9960019B60B34572B1D355BC1D802712@medion> References: <9960019B60B34572B1D355BC1D802712@medion> Message-ID: <56706898.1080107@sydex.com> On 12/15/2015 10:34 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > I would take the bet that this IC is simply a R network, 1 KOhm, 1 > resistor "across" ie from pin 1 to opposite pin, from pin 2 to > opposite pin, etc .... What about simple and quick Ohmmeter check ?? That was my first guess--the numbering matches the general scheme of other A-B DIP resistor networks that are rattling around in my hellbox. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 15 13:12:16 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:12:16 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <201512151819.NAA10861@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201512151819.NAA10861@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: [Printer's Ready signal] > > Why not? It's all the host really needs to know -- can I send > > another character or not. > > Well...it can be very nice for the host to report "out of paper" > differently from "paper jam" differently from "motor or position > encoder failure" differently from "failed selftest" etc. True it's nice, but back then such things were often handled by indicators on the printer itself (possibly even by a flashing combination of indicators, so that something like On-line, paper-out and 12cpi all flashing together means 'RAM failed') OK, the Centronics interface does have a paper-out line that most printers implemented, but AFAIK if a printer asserted paper-out then it also asserted busy (or would do when the buffer was full) so that the host really only _had_ to check for busy. It is certainly possible to make a parallel printer interface with 7 or 8 data lines, a strobe and a ready line. Only. -tony From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Dec 15 13:30:17 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:30:17 +0000 Subject: Rectangular holes punched from cards [was RE: Display-less computing] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC71632@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 9:12 AM > My father claimed that the use of round holes on divergent cards was due > to an attempt by IBM to patent the shape of the hole in the cards. http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/ibm100/us/en/icons/punchcard/ Prior to 1928, the holes in IBM's cards were round, too. The use of round holes by Univac was an avoidance of paying royalties to IBM, which held a patent on 80-column rectangularly punched cards. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:05:51 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:05:51 +1300 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 4:27 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Dec 15, 2015, at 12:54 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> ... >> I believe that the Selectric came configured for remote operation, but presumably using an EBCDIC-based data stream. I vaguely recall a DB-50 connector, but it's been an awfully long time ... >> >> Does this description sound familiar to anyone? > > For a while, RSTS/E supported 2741 terminals, which are Selectric terminals with a UART interface. It wasn't EBCDIC -- instead, it had one of several possible conversion tables. I forgot the number of bits per character. Also, the speed used was peculiar: 134.5 bits per second. 2741 support was dropped at some point; I think V7 has it but it disappeared by V9 if not sooner. That IS interesting. I have two 2741s - one mostly working, needs a little mechanical fettling, one untested but believed needing work. It seems I could bring up a pre-V7 RSTS and incant the right runes at it and the 2741 would Just Work. What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 15 14:26:15 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:26:15 -0800 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> On 12/15/15 12:05 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? I would expect that IBM mainframe OS's would support it (especially older ones). The issue there would be getting the 2741 connected up. I have a DECWriter III with the APL option on it. I'd really like to get that hooked up to MVT running APL\360! Of course, I'd *really* like to have a 2741 with an APL typeball for that! ;-) TTFN - Guy From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:43:36 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:43:36 -0800 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? In-Reply-To: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> I have two boxes, QB-4QYAA-SA 3.2 sealed in shrink wrap, and QB-4QYAA-SA >> 3.3 open box that is slightly crushed. >> >> The boxes (at least the still sealed one) look like this eBay item (not mine) >> listing: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321413114710 > > Seems a shame to throw them away. What would postage of these to the UK cost? > If the package weighs around one pound (under 0.5kg) or less it might be around $18 or so from the US to the UK for First-Class Package International Service. The main manual is already available online. I could image the CD-ROMs from both boxes (not sure if they are actually different between the two) and make that available to archive if it is not already archived somewhere so nothing would be really lost if I recycled these. -Glen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 15 14:38:19 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 20:38:19 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 13 December 2015 15:47 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > I have been able to remove the leaking ones from the +12V and -12V board, I > just have to wait for the new parts to arrive. The two on the 5V and 3.3V > board have not leaked, are not bulging, and are harder to remove without > removing the bottom heatsink or pulling from above as you suggest. I have > not been able to reach them with my ESR meter either, unfortunately. I am > tempted to leave them, although pulling from above is an option. Does > anyone else agree with the pull from above solution? In case you have not > seen it, the design makes it very hard to get at the underside, you have to > desolder a load of transistors to do so, and they are not in easy locations > either. > Tonight I replaced the leaking capacitors on the +12V/-12V board, and also replaced the two similar ones that looked and measured fine. I put the PSU back together, put in a couple of less important boards and drives, and the machine now seems to power on OK. I measured the ripple using the power connector for the front panel and that looks OK too. Unfortunately though, that connector only sends out +12V, +5V and -12V. It does not have output for +3.3V, so I have not, so far, been able to check the ripple for this. It is a bit awkward to test on the bench with a dummy load. As I did not replace the capacitors on the +5V/3.3V board, because the underside is very hard to access, and I am reluctant to pull them off and solder from above, I would like to be sure there is no ripple on the 3.3V supply. So, I was wondering if anyone has any neat tricks for probing the +3.3V supply with the PSU installed in the machine? Next job is to replace the capacitors on the little DSSI terminator, they are easy to change. Thanks Rob From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Dec 15 14:48:58 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:48:58 +0100 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel Message-ID: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Hi It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage and power supply. Looks just like this: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg Does anyone have one for sale? The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine got a small crack in it. Regards, Pontus. From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Dec 15 14:20:35 2015 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:20:35 +0100 Subject: Accessible Computing In-Reply-To: <566DE089.4020908@sydex.com> References: <566DE089.4020908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20151215202035.GA2073@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 01:18:01PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: [...] > > I've tried reading my email using text-to-speech software and felt > like I wanted to throw the damned machine out the window. I wonder how tts would manage with a website like nasa.gov ... Some time ago they became javascript-only. At least this is what I see. I do not need accessibility option but I always admire a website which can be read in text-only mode. In many cases this means that I will have to slide down past meaningless crap, like fifty or hundred links to other "interesting" articles du jour, until finally I get to the thing which I wanted to read (in a graphical mode, the crap is semi hidden in marginal parts of the page and does not get in my way). When I try nasa with a browser like Lynx, the website is not showing anything at all. When I load an article in Firefox, then try to open same URL in Lynx, once again, nothing. Source view in Lynx displays lots of html without actual content, which needs to get loaded by JS. Now, the funny stuff: I try "print preview" in Firefox and it shows me sixty three pages, because, you know, apart from the original article I was interested in there is a side frame with about twenty (forty?) others and for whatever reason they all want to go into printer. Actually those are not full articles, just enough of them to constitute sixty pages of worthless addendum, full of color photos and scraps of text. http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/goddard/plunging-into-the-ionosphere-satellite-s-last-days-improve-orbital-decay-predictions [...] > Technology, it seems, hasn't served us well in some respects. I am afraid technology is no longer oriented towards helping with technical problem as much as it used to be. I would say, it is increasingly more about serving the purpose to "being liked" or actually "being like us" (as opposed to those who do not use said technology and are therefor "not like us"). In other words, if you ever disliked the mob of goodwilling citizens [1], today this mob has a deciding voice about what technology will be like. There used to be a time of "revenge of geeks", now the "revenge of cheerleaders" is approaching. Empire strikes back, heheheheh. This and pitiful approach to design, which has to be new, shiny and blinking. And this is just a beginning of a long sliding down. :-/ Of course I am wrong. There is a good chance fifty years from now some people will point to today's nasa.gov as a wonderful example of classic web design - now, what kind of horror will be modern at that time so that nasa.gov will be opposed to it as classy ideal? But it was nice to write all this. And if I am right I will point to this piece and say "see, I was right, I only had to pretend I was joking". -- [1] Like archetypical football players, cheerleaders and their minions who boo at nerds and other weirdos [2], but it is not really so much about players vs nerds, perhaps more like people who want purposeful tech and those who want pretty tech? Pretty tech to show off how much modern and up to date they are, when in fact this is just about being fashionable. [2] I do not take such tales too seriously as I never have been booed at back in a days when cheerleaders were all jumping high - not for being weird. But I keep hearing stories about booing which is why I am using this rhetorical device here. Then again, back in a days we did not have cheerleaders in Poland and weirdos who could do a computer were actually kind of admired :-). Perhaps more because they had access to the half mythical hard-to-get hardware and not because of their abilities, but still. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue Dec 15 15:35:44 2015 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:35:44 +0100 Subject: Accessible Computing In-Reply-To: <20151215202035.GA2073@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <566DE089.4020908@sydex.com> <20151215202035.GA2073@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20151215213544.GB2073@tau1.ceti.pl> On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 09:20:35PM +0100, Tomasz Rola wrote: [...] > Now, the funny stuff: I try "print preview" in Firefox and it shows me > sixty three pages, because, you know, apart from the original article > I was interested in there is a side frame with about twenty (forty?) > others and for whatever reason they all want to go into > printer. Actually those are not full articles, just enough of them to > constitute sixty pages of worthless addendum, full of color photos and > scraps of text. > > http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/goddard/plunging-into-the-ionosphere-satellite-s-last-days-improve-orbital-decay-predictions Ah. Somehow I forgot to mention that scraps of text are accompanied by buttons saying "Read Full Article", which are going to be printed, too. For my amusement, I have just printed it all to pdf file... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 14:41:55 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:41:55 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 4:35 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> I guessed that might be the case... any suggestions for what were >> common pinouts and signals used? I can analyze 'backwards', testing > > There were just about as many parallel interface versions as devices > that used them back then..... Nothing 'common' really... > > The idea of 7 or 8 data lines, a strobe, and a ready signal was > certainly arround back then, but the timing, polarity (active high > or low) and timing were not standardised. A couple of examples > that I can see without getting up are the Facit 4070 paper > tape punch and the HP9866A thermal printer. Those were > both around in the early-mid 1970s and are rather different > parallel interface. > > OK, what I would do to get some idea is focus on those 7475 chips. Get > the pinout. The most obvious use for them on this board is as the > character input latch. IIRC each is really 2 2-bit latches, so 2 enable/clock > pins on each chip. So : > > 1) Are the 4 clock pins linked together (if so, it loads a character at a time [1]), > or are they in pairs or what > > 2) Where do the D inputs go? Are any of them linked together, or do 7 or > 8 of them go to the interface connector? If the latter, then those are the data > inputs. > > [1] Before anyone suggests you could use them as a sort-of shift register and load > half a character into one, then copy it into the second one while loading the other half > character, remember the 7475 is a transparent latch, not an edge-triggered flip-flop > making this a very difficult thing to do. > > If you can identify the data lines on the connector you are getting there. See if you > can trace the other pins to inputs or outputs. > > -tony Tony, good advice but probably more work than I'm inclined to put in. As you said there were many interfaces with different standards - different polarities and timing - and either way it's quite likely this will never work with a standard modern parallel port without building some converter, after first finding out what has to be converted and designing it! There are seven lines in parallel all going through that Allen Bradley pullup network so I'm tentatively assuming it's accepting seven bit parallel data so one character at a time - not nybbles or anything else. That leaves three other lines which I'm assuming are some kind of strobe; 'busy' or a functional equivalent; and the one we know is 'paper out'. That's enough for a working interface. Timing and levels undetermined as you said. I did have what I technically refer to as a 'poke' at it last night; sent some text to the raw parallel device from a Linux box - and was able - inconsistently - to get the Selectric mechanism to cycle intermittently by rapidly inserting and removing jumpers in the breakout box on the seven presumed data lines; essentially triggering a kinda 'manual' strobe. So something is kinda sorta getting through and I think I may leave it at that - unless I stumble across any doc. I tried it with the presumed 'busy' and 'strobe' lines connected in various ways that might make logical sense but could never get it to 'just work' and accept and print characters or continuously print a stream of characters; it just cycled the mechanism intermittently on manually making and breaking connections on the data lines as I said. So I suspect the strobe/busy signaling is something different from standard parallel. And of course I have no idea of the bit order on those data lines; I have a seven-way matrix of possible combos so hitting the right one to actually print valid characters might be a job of work! If and when I do remove the Western I/O stuff and convert it to the Arduino full serial terminal I'll photograph document and keep what I remove - so it could be restored to 'as converted' condition in the future if anyone wants to try it! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 18:25:01 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:25:01 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 15 December 2015 at 15:05, Mike Ross wrote: > What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? > I might be completely wrong, but I think some of the early UNIX versions might "speak" 2741. But I'm not sure. Perhaps a sufficiently "vintage" RSX-11 might as well? Of course like Guy Sotomayor said, IBM mainframe operating systems can speak 2741. OS/360 can, and I'm pretty sure so can MVS and VM/370 but my IBM knowledge is somewhat limited. Also, I really want one of those 2741s. Selectrics that can do I/O are *bleep*ing cool. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:41:05 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:41:05 +1300 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 12/15/15 12:05 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? > > I would expect that IBM mainframe OS's would support it (especially older > ones). The issue there would be getting the 2741 connected up. Well IBM of course - I was thinking more other DEC OS's and various flavors of Unix... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:48:04 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:48:04 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> What I meant was are they still on 9-track, or some kind of tape-in-a-file disk? IBM tapes are usually written to AWS format files not the formats (.TAP ?) used by SIMH... Some source to extract some versions of these from AWS files (and windows executables) are in this ZIP file:- http://1drv.ms/1NS4wuo Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 15 December 2015 17:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy > > On 12/15/2015 07:37 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > The files are in the same format as on disk. The system just copies > > them back to disk. What size are the blocks as I have a "C" utility > > that will read the older smaller block size files. You can always > > download Hercules and VM/370 .... > > Jim, Dave, Peter, Harry et al.: > > Thanks for your responses. The customer says that the tape was made > during the 1970s on an S/370 system. He doesn't care about the binaries; > he'd just like the source code files translated in ASCII. > That makes the job quite a bit easier. > > The general format of the tape looks like this: > > 34 x 4101 bytes > 1 x 2581 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > 1 x 177 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > 39 x 4101 bytes > 1 x 3515 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > 39 x 4101 bytes > 1 x 3775 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > 62 x 4101 bytes > 1 x 1013 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > 1 x 1125 bytes > 1 x 87 bytes > ... > (2 x file mark) > > The 87 byte records appear to be the metadata; each block has a 2-character > type prefix. I'll have to sit down and suss the rest out, but the 87 byte > records appear to contain the file metadata. The content of much of it does > appear to be card images--I recognized the first logical record as the travel > table from the "Adventure" game, so I expect that complete source is there. > > If anyone gets a lightning strike about this, I can check it out. > > Thanks again, > Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:50:27 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:50:27 -0000 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <00c201d13782$9cfd7ef0$d6f87cd0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor > Sent: 15 December 2015 20:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM Selectric-based Terminals > > > > On 12/15/15 12:05 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? > I would expect that IBM mainframe OS's would support it (especially older > ones). The issue there would be getting the 2741 connected up. > Hercules now has support for 2741 via Telnet > I have a DECWriter III with the APL option on it. I'd really like to get that > hooked up to MVT running APL\360! Of course, I'd *really* like to have a > 2741 with an APL typeball for that! ;-) Again 2708 with 2741 supported.. > > TTFN - Guy Dave G4UGM From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 15:55:22 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:55:22 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <55D8CA38-6CEC-4C6A-89EF-75459009D5BB@shiresoft.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <55D8CA38-6CEC-4C6A-89EF-75459009D5BB@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <00c301d13783$4c960a80$e5c21f80$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor > Sent: 15 December 2015 17:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy > > > > On Dec 14, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Just finished reading a 9 track tape made with IBM CMS in its dumpfile > format. > > > > Why on earth--or might I say, what idiot--designed this format? First the > file data in a series of records, *then* the file name and other metadata. > > > > Anyone know of a DOS/Windows/Unix utility to unravel one of these > things? I don't feel too much like coding for a single tape. > > > Use VM/370 under Hercules to read in the dumpfile tape and write it back > out in either AWS or HET format. > > TTFN - Guy You don't need VM/370, Hercules includes a "tapecopy" command that will copy from SCSI tape to AWS format... (and back) Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 15 16:17:32 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:17:32 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <027701d13786$64e5eb70$2eb1c250$@ntlworld.com> > Tonight I replaced the leaking capacitors on the +12V/-12V board, and also > replaced the two similar ones that looked and measured fine. I put the PSU > back together, put in a couple of less important boards and drives, and the > machine now seems to power on OK. I measured the ripple using the power > connector for the front panel and that looks OK too. Unfortunately though, > that connector only sends out +12V, +5V and -12V. It does not have output > for +3.3V, so I have not, so far, been able to check the ripple for this. It is a bit > awkward to test on the bench with a dummy load. > > As I did not replace the capacitors on the +5V/3.3V board, because the > underside is very hard to access, and I am reluctant to pull them off and > solder from above, I would like to be sure there is no ripple on the 3.3V > supply. So, I was wondering if anyone has any neat tricks for probing the > +3.3V supply with the PSU installed in the machine? > > Next job is to replace the capacitors on the little DSSI terminator, they are > easy to change. > I spoke too soon :-( The machine stayed on for a couple of minutes and then powered off. I suspect there is a problem with it detecting an overload that may not actually be there. Looks like I will need to get a dummy load and put it on the bench to see if it still happens there. I do recall that when it first failed it would stay on for shorter and shorter periods each time I tried it. So perhaps there is some component warming up and then causing a failure? Regards Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:18:30 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:18:30 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 12:38 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Tonight I replaced the leaking capacitors on the +12V/-12V board, and also > replaced the two similar ones that looked and measured fine. I put the PSU > back together, put in a couple of less important boards and drives, and the > machine now seems to power on OK. I measured the ripple using the power > connector for the front panel and that looks OK too. Unfortunately though, > that connector only sends out +12V, +5V and -12V. It does not have output > for +3.3V, so I have not, so far, been able to check the ripple for this. It > is a bit awkward to test on the bench with a dummy load. > Nice work and good outcome. Gives me some hope I might be able to get the H7874 supply from my BA430 VAX 4000-200 repaired and running again. > As I did not replace the capacitors on the +5V/3.3V board, because the > underside is very hard to access, and I am reluctant to pull them off and > solder from above, I would like to be sure there is no ripple on the 3.3V > supply. So, I was wondering if anyone has any neat tricks for probing the > +3.3V supply with the PSU installed in the machine? On the BA440 pedestal chassis lift off the two front door panels and then remove the 5 screws on the left side and the 6 screws on the right side that hold the front door mounting brackets in place and then you can lift off the outer skin panels in one piece. After you remove the outer skin there are 18 screws (if I counted correctly) that hold the rear metal skin over the backplane area. After you remove that you'll have full access to probe the square pads on the backplane next to the power supply connectors. The pads are not labeled on the back so make a note of the voltages when looking at them in from the front when the power supply is removed. It might sound like a lot of work but it's really not bad, assuming the BA440 chassis isn't buried under stuff where you can only get at it from the front. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:33:41 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:33:41 -0600 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? In-Reply-To: References: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > The main manual is already available online. I could image the CD-ROMs > from both boxes (not sure if they are actually different between the > two) and make that available to archive if it is not already archived > somewhere so nothing would be really lost if I recycled these. I was going to offer to scan and image the lot, but if the scan is already done and you can image the CDs, that would be ideal. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 16:43:11 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:43:11 -0500 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 3:41 PM > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 4:35 AM, tony duell wrote: >> If you can identify the data lines on the connector you are getting there. See if you >> can trace the other pins to inputs or outputs. >> >> -tony > > Tony, good advice but probably more work than I'm inclined to put in. > As you said there were many interfaces with different standards - > different polarities and timing - and either way it's quite likely > this will never work with a standard modern parallel port without > building some converter, after first finding out what has to be > converted and designing it! ----- Reply ----- Tony just makes everything sound more complicated than it is ;-) Actually I suspect it might indeed quite possibly work with a standard parallel port without any conversion at all other than a rewired cable and maybe a very minor change or two on the board. For the most part a parallel port is a parallel port; data and strobe going out, strobe acknowledge and printer status coming in, nothing more complicated than that and timing is rarely an issue. In the Selectric there is the R/T code conversion of course but that's done for you already and it should be simple to find the data bit order. I had a contract years ago that involved adding a serial or parallel interface to Olivetti typewriters and it's really not rocket science; I even still have some info on interfacing to Selectrics but unfortunately not relevant to yours. Your choice of course but I'd take Brent up on his generous offer to reverse engineer that interface; you may find it's a much simpler project than you think. (another) mike From steven at malikoff.com Tue Dec 15 17:30:23 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:30:23 +1000 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > Hi > > It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage > and power supply. Looks just like this: > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg > > The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to > make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: > > http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg > > Does anyone have one for sale? > > The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine > got a small crack in it. > > Regards, > Pontus. I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a listmember who would have taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box. I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there. If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in different thicknesses already. So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll add this project to the pile :) Steve. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 17:49:25 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:49:25 -0600 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find. On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage > and power supply. Looks just like this: > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg > > The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to > make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: > > http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg > > Does anyone have one for sale? > > The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine > got a small crack in it. > > Regards, > Pontus. > From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 17:50:30 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:50:30 -0600 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: opps... The "N" parts are easier to find. On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find. > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren > wrote: > >> Hi >> >> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage >> and power supply. Looks just like this: >> >> >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg >> >> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to >> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: >> >> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg >> >> Does anyone have one for sale? >> >> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine >> got a small crack in it. >> >> Regards, >> Pontus. >> > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 19:21:03 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 20:21:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: DEC made a Selectric interface called LT33 or something, consisting of a general purpose parallel card for a PDP-8/E coupled to a small chassis with a bunch of solenoid drivers and stuff for the Selectric. I think it was a CSS product, so I doubt it was supported by any official OS. I have three or four of the things, plus docs. -- Will On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> >> On 12/15/15 12:05 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> >>> What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? >> >> I would expect that IBM mainframe OS's would support it (especially older >> ones). The issue there would be getting the 2741 connected up. > > Well IBM of course - I was thinking more other DEC OS's and various > flavors of Unix... > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 20:13:10 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:13:10 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 15 December 2015 at 20:21, William Donzelli wrote: > DEC made a Selectric interface called LT33 or something, consisting of If I recall my DEC naming correctly, the LT33 is *not* for the Selectric. It (and the corresponding LT35) are the modifications made to private line Model 33 (and Model 35, respectively) ASR Teletype machines to make them work as the console teleprinter (and have the reader work under computer control). Then again, they could have reused the name "LT33" but that would get confusing. Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 15 21:10:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:10:34 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> On 12/15/2015 01:48 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > What I meant was are they still on 9-track, or some kind of > tape-in-a-file disk? IBM tapes are usually written to AWS format > files not the formats (.TAP ?) used by SIMH... Some source to extract > some versions of these from AWS files (and windows executables) are > in this ZIP file:- Came right off a 1600 cpi tape, identified as a CMS dumpfile. What really strikes me as odd, is that ANSI/IBM tape labels were pretty much the standard rule of thumb then; why the heck did IBM invent something new and obscure? --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 20:10:35 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:10:35 +1300 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: <00c201d13782$9cfd7ef0$d6f87cd0$@gmail.com> References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> <00c201d13782$9cfd7ef0$d6f87cd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy >> Sotomayor >> Sent: 15 December 2015 20:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: IBM Selectric-based Terminals >> >> >> >> On 12/15/15 12:05 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> > What other OSes might have native 2741 support built in, anyone know? >> I would expect that IBM mainframe OS's would support it (especially older >> ones). The issue there would be getting the 2741 connected up. >> > > Hercules now has support for 2741 via Telnet That is cool - but requires a host OS that supports 2741 login so you can then telnet to Herc... does Linux have 2741 support? I have vague memories of tweaking ?termcap? to support something odd I once shoved into a serial port - but not 2741 odd! What would be considerably cooler is if you could dedicate a serial port to Herc - plug in the 2741; switch it on; get an IBM login prompt *directly*. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 20:21:05 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:21:05 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ross" > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 3:41 PM > > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 4:35 AM, tony duell wrote: >>> If you can identify the data lines on the connector you are getting there. See if you >>> can trace the other pins to inputs or outputs. >>> >>> -tony >> >> Tony, good advice but probably more work than I'm inclined to put in. >> As you said there were many interfaces with different standards - >> different polarities and timing - and either way it's quite likely >> this will never work with a standard modern parallel port without >> building some converter, after first finding out what has to be >> converted and designing it! > > ----- Reply ----- > > Tony just makes everything sound more complicated than it is ;-) > > Actually I suspect it might indeed quite possibly work with a standard parallel port without any conversion at all other than a rewired cable and maybe a very minor change or two on the board. > > For the most part a parallel port is a parallel port; data and strobe going out, strobe acknowledge and printer status coming in, nothing more complicated than that and timing is rarely an issue. In the Selectric there is the R/T code conversion of course but that's done for you already and it should be simple to find the data bit order. > > I had a contract years ago that involved adding a serial or parallel interface to Olivetti typewriters and it's really not rocket science; I even still have some info on interfacing to Selectrics but unfortunately not relevant to yours. > > Your choice of course but I'd take Brent up on his generous offer to reverse engineer that interface; you may find it's a much simpler project than you think. > > (another) mike I have taken Brent up on that :-) I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together before I decide if the effort is worth it. http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 21:19:51 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:19:51 -0500 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> <56707767.3020507@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Like I said "or something". I could not recall that the time. A quick look shows that it is actually LT73. -- Will On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 9:13 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 15 December 2015 at 20:21, William Donzelli wrote: >> DEC made a Selectric interface called LT33 or something, consisting of > If I recall my DEC naming correctly, the LT33 is *not* for the > Selectric. It (and the corresponding LT35) are the modifications made > to private line Model 33 (and Model 35, respectively) ASR Teletype > machines to make them work as the console teleprinter (and have the > reader work under computer control). > > Then again, they could have reused the name "LT33" but that would get confusing. > > Regards, > Christian > -- > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > STCKON08DS0 > Contact information available upon request. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 15 22:01:26 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 00:01:26 -0400 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5670E216.2070805@gmail.com> On 2015-12-15 10:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I have taken Brent up on that :-) > > I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together > before I decide if the effort is worth it. > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' Useful information about interfacing to selectric I/O and maintenance can be found on bitsavers http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/typewriter/selectric/ manuals contain all the mechanical adjustments and one of the manual includes wiring diagrams and timing charts. The most useful ones would seem to be 241-5308 IO SelectricRefMan.pdf, CEInstructionManual.pdf, and S225-1726-7 IOseleMnt Nov70.pdf. These are the manuals that we used when servicing Selectric terminals. Paul. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Dec 15 23:13:25 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 00:13:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201512160513.AAA27711@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What would you do with a home no screen computer? Depends on what counts as a "screen". If any visible output counts, there isn't much - but I suspect you don't want to go that far. You can connect to it from other computers. I have six machines running right now with no screens on them (though four of them have the host-side hardware for a screen). You can talk to it with a terminal. If a video-display terminal counts as a screen, use a printing terminal. You can use whatever output it _does_ have. I had (I've since passed it along to someone who appreciated it more than I did) a PDP-8/f. It had a row of lights which functioned as an output device. Another machine I used in the past had a small LED display, something like one line of twenty characters (though that may count as a screen). I'm sure I've missed some options.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 16 01:01:26 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:01:26 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-15, at 6:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > > I have taken Brent up on that :-) > > I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together > before I decide if the effort is worth it. First crack can be picked up here: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some connections around those. If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red I can update the schematic. I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely scenario: D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 is likely the ASCII LSB. nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like active-low. BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / READY / ACK. So there are 10 sigs out of the proms heading off to the selectric mechanism for the tilt/rotate / operation select. But there are a lot of other connections to the mechanism. I've never played with Selectrics internally so I'm not familiar with the details of operation, sequencing, etc. Note that only half the prom address space is accessed from the 7-bit data, and it looks like the board is set up so if a trace is cut and/or a switch added one could have two character code-sets. Who knows whether the PROMS are programmed for such though. I threw out a print-only selectric a few years ago that had been used for printing airline tickets. No electronics in it, just the solenoids and contacts for the electrical control. Regret it now, just because it would have been fun to figure it out. C'est la vie. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Dec 16 01:04:08 2015 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:04:08 +1100 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <68AAD35D-1A18-4489-B159-68C5D9B03924@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5981359A-762A-474B-9D13-85CC1D97C952@kerberos.davies.net.au> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? My recollections. I started programming (in FORTRAN) in 1972 whilst in my last year at secondary school. One of the Melbourne Universities (Monash) had developed MONECS (Monash Educational Computing System) which (I presume) ran on one of their Burroughs systems (it was later ported to a PDP-11 and rebranded DECMON?). This used pre-punched cards which you ?punched? by using a paper clip - beware the hanging chads? We used to get one run a week and sent in our jobs via snail mail. Output was on a line printer. The following year at Uni I had access to a PDP-15 and a real IBM 029 card punch. If you sweet talked the operators you might get two runs a day! After that it was all downhill on our DECsystem-10 :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 16 09:22:07 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:22:07 -0500 Subject: Advice and Suggestions for a Debug Feature Message-ID: <5671819F.3020300@compsys.to> I have been investigating the possibility of adding an enhanced feature to a debug program. There does not seem to be anything specific about the concept, so it should be applicable to every current CPU in addition to most old CPUs. The current syntax for many debuggers uses the letter "S" along with an optional value to specify a Single Step (or ONE instruction to be executed when the value is omitted) or a number of Single Steps (a number of instructions) equal to the optional value. Of the two different debuggers for the CPU, operating system and code which I use most of the time, both debuggers display the same information for each of the Single Steps, specifically the actual instruction that will executed and the values of the registers immediately before the instruction is executed. So if a total of 5 instructions are executed, the display is updated 5 times. For the debugger that I wish to enhance, the actual syntax is: value1,value2,value3;S and at present, value2 and value3 are ignored. My question concerns using value2 and value3 to specify the limits by which the stack pointer may change, specifically by adding data (also called a push) and subtracting data (also called a pop) to the stack in whatever manner the program uses to alter the value of the stack pointer register, respectively. Note that for many CPUs, adding values (a push) results in the stack pointer becoming numerically smaller (unsigned of course). Internally, the code would handle the actual arithmetic. For example, if the user specifies: 45,4,2;S then: (a) Up to 45 instructions are executed (b) If the stack has 4 or more pushes, instructions stop (c) If the stack has 2 or more pops, instructions stop Additional information: (a) Scroll / NoScroll is enabled, so the user can pause / resume at any time (b) Any single character by the user stops instructions (c) All pushes and pops are noted AFTER the current instruction is executed - which allows subroutine calls to be automatically handled as per the examples Defaults: (a) If no values are supplied (ONLY ";S"), then "1;S" is assumed and ONE instruction is executed (b) The debugger supports in place of ";S" which supports Single Stepping with a single key (c) If any value is omitted, that limitation does not apply More Examples: ,,1;S instructions are executed until the code returns from the subroutine - IF the current instruction calls a subroutine ,,1;S instructions are executed until the code returns to the previous subroutine - IF the current instruction does NOT call a subroutine ,,1;S instructions are executed until the code restores the stack pointer - IF the current instruction does a push or creates space on the stack ,1,2;S instructions are executed until the code calls a second subroutine OR the code returns to the previous subroutine - IF the current code calls a subroutine 55,1,1;S 55 instructions are executed OR until the code calls a second subroutine OR the code returns to the current subroutine - IF the current instruction calls a subroutine 55,1,1;S 55 instructions are executed OR until the code calls a subroutine OR the code returns the the previous subroutine - IF the current instruction does NOT call a subroutine Many more examples could be considered, but that seems to be about the concept that I have. Please advise and comment. Please make any suggestions that would be any improvement and, most important, point out any problems that I have not considered. Jerome Fine From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 16 09:17:20 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:17:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 Message-ID: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I threw out a print-only selectric a few years ago ... Regret it now, > just because it would have been fun to figure it out. C'est la vie. I can top that. MIT offered me (as a gift) the PDP-11/45 that I used to run; it included a pair of CalComp 50MB drives, a pair of RK05s, an ABLE ENABLE, 3 H960's, lots of other goodies. I blew it off, I was too busy dealing with other things at the time (I was on the IESG at that point) to deal with arranging to get it shipped down to me. They gave it to someone else, and near as I can work out, eventually it got scrapped. Every time I think about it I kick myself... Sigh! Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 16 09:57:02 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 09:57:02 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) Message-ID: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> Noel wrote.... ----------------- Every time I think about it I kick myself... Sigh! Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... ----------------- Yeah Noel, we all do. I had a couple different really great machines offered to me long before I got into collecting. A DG nova 3 and an IBM System/3 come to mind, I'm sure there were others. I declined and they were scrapped. But here's one with a good ending.... Many years ago (I was around 19 years old) I acquired two Microdata Reality M1600 core machines (including full schematics and source code, completely unheard of for those machines). These two particular systems were very unique (basically one of a kind) even within the microdata world. After a time my parents ordered them out of the house and a "friend" agreed to store them. A few weeks after moving them to his house, he informed me that he gave them away and wouldn't tell me to who/where. Decades later I got into collecting, found the classiccmp list, met Jim Stephens here, and we've talked on the phone and met due to our shared history/interest in Pick-based machines. During one conversation it was discovered that - not directly, but through several chains of trades/sales/pickups - Jim Stephens had those exact two systems that I used to own. Given the unique nature of the two machines, there's no doubt they are the exact same ones. But we've also discussed the details of who we each knew, and pretty much ironed out who all's hands they passed through between him and I over the years. So... while I am sad I "let those machines go"... it's great to know that they eventually wound up in a great home of a fellow collector that I know - instead of the shredder! Best, J From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 16 09:52:58 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:52:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interest level for new PDP-11 indicator panels Message-ID: <20151216155258.E53C418C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've mention that Dave Bridgham and I are working on a new QBUS board (the 'QSIC', for lack of a more imaginative name) that will emulate a variety of older DEC disk controllers/drives using a micro-controller/FPGA and SD cards. (We currently have one prototype [for Dave] mostly constructed, and another [for me] half-way done.) Since Dave and I are both blinkenlitz addicts, we're doing an indicator panel option, emulating exactly the look of the old DEC indictor panels (4x36 lights, with 'inlays' to customize a panel to particular controller, mounted in a 5-1/4 panel for a 19" rack). (These panels are specific to the QSIC, and don't work with the original controllers.) A QSIC will be able to drive up to 4 (or so) indicator panels - I plan to have 3 on my machine: RK11, RP11, and a fixed-head disk. So I'm trying to get a sense of how much demand there would be for the indicator panel option (for parts ordering; I have a chance to buy some discontinued stuff, and I want to know how much to stock up on). If you would be interested in one or more indicator panels, could you let me know? (Please don't reply to the list, just to me personally.) Thanks. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 16 09:57:40 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:40 -0500 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> Message-ID: <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> > On Dec 15, 2015, at 10:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 12/15/2015 01:48 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> What I meant was are they still on 9-track, or some kind of >> tape-in-a-file disk? IBM tapes are usually written to AWS format >> files not the formats (.TAP ?) used by SIMH... Some source to extract >> some versions of these from AWS files (and windows executables) are >> in this ZIP file:- > > Came right off a 1600 cpi tape, identified as a CMS dumpfile. > > What really strikes me as odd, is that ANSI/IBM tape labels were pretty much the standard rule of thumb then; why the heck did IBM invent something new and obscure? IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 at least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not actually ANSI at all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre code created from standard 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't remember). paul From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 09:45:18 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:45:18 +0000 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 16 December 2015 at 15:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: > the time (I was on the IESG at that point) to deal with arranging to get it > shipped down to me. They gave it to someone else, and near as I can work > out, > eventually it got scrapped. > > Every time I think about it I kick myself... Sigh! > > Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... > So far the only thing I regret dumping is a VT180 and VT52 back in the 90s, and I kind of regret passing on my 'big box' TRS80s (model II/III/IV) in 2010 but I was moving to a smaller house so a lot of my bigger machines went. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Dec 16 10:04:29 2015 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:04:29 +0000 Subject: Advice and Suggestions for a Debug Feature In-Reply-To: <5671819F.3020300@compsys.to> References: <5671819F.3020300@compsys.to> Message-ID: <89516FCB-A650-473D-B0BA-FF90CF5DDC3B@swri.edu> On Dec 16, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Note that for many CPUs, adding values (a push) results in the > stack pointer becoming numerically smaller (unsigned of course). > Internally, the code would handle the actual arithmetic. (Warning: assembly language noob talking, please disregard if I see to be making no sense.) 1) Does the debugger enhancement trigger a stop on overall size of stack pointer or on cumulative changes? Or could it be selectable (maybe via a negative argument?) Here?s what I?m thinking: suppose a routine is expected to remove things from the stack sequentially, then branch at some point to a subroutine. I want the debugger to halt execution when it branches. So I want the stop to occur when the stack pointer first increases, even if it has already decreased several times and its new value (on branching) is lower than where it was when the debug command was issued. 2) Some machines (6809, which is the only one I?m familiar with) have a rapid-response branching mechanism for real-time control applications (on the 6809 it?s a Fast Interrupt input). Fewer registers are pushed onto the stack so the service routine can execute sooner. Is there a way to handle this situation? Say I expect two levels of subroutine calls, each stacking a full set of registers, but instead I get for the second subroutine a Fast Interrupt and don?t stack enough registers to trigger the debug counter to halt execution. Hope this is useful. - Mark From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 16 10:32:04 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:32:04 -0500 Subject: [SPAM key] - Re: Advice and Suggestions for a Debug Feature In-Reply-To: References: <5671819F.3020300@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56719204.1040401@compsys.to> >Tapley, Mark wrote: >>On Dec 16, 2015, at 9:22 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>Note that for many CPUs, adding values (a push) results in the >>stack pointer becoming numerically smaller (unsigned of course). >>Internally, the code would handle the actual arithmetic. >> >(Warning: assembly language noob talking, please disregard if I see to be making no sense.) > >1) Does the debugger enhancement trigger a stop on overall size of stack pointer or on cumulative changes? Or could it be selectable (maybe via a negative argument?) > >Here?s what I?m thinking: suppose a routine is expected to remove things from the stack sequentially, then branch at some point to a subroutine. I want the debugger to halt execution when it branches. So I want the stop to occur when the stack pointer first increases, even if it has already decreased several times and its new value (on branching) is lower than where it was when the debug command was issued. > >2) Some machines (6809, which is the only one I?m familiar with) have a rapid-response branching mechanism for real-time control applications (on the 6809 it?s a Fast Interrupt input). Fewer registers are pushed onto the stack so the service routine can execute sooner. Is there a way to handle this situation? Say I expect two levels of subroutine calls, each stacking a full set of registers, but instead I get for the second subroutine a Fast Interrupt and don?t stack enough registers to trigger the debug counter to halt execution. > > Hope this is useful. > > - Mark > Yes, it is useful since it helps to be aware of what other systems do. So thank you. For those of you who might not have known, this is the Y01.16 Symbolic Debugger from RT-11 and in particular the SDHX.SYS variant. From the point of view of interrupts, when stopped at a breakpoint, the complete system is FROZEN - including RT-11 itself which is the operating system that is being used on the PDP-11. As for the user's stack, that is not even a factor since the Symbolic Debugger has its own stack and executes in Kernel mode. In fact, one of the other enhancements was to ass code to monitor the size of the stack for the Symbolic Debugger - which also allowed that stack to decrease. That was especially helpful since the stack must be in Low Memory in order to handle interrupts and subroutine calls. And as for the user's program stack, there is no effect at all. What the Symbolic Debugger does is save all of the user's registers, including the stack pointer of course. The enhanced code would then compare the original value of the Stack Pointer (actually as noted after the current instruction had been executed) with any subsequent value to determine if the conditions had been met to stop the execution of additional instructions, assuming that the value of the Stack Pointer was included (via value2 and / or value3) in the command to execute more instructions. Jerome Fine From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 16 10:43:45 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:43:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interest level for new PDP-11 indicator panels Message-ID: <20151216164345.7362118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm trying to get a sense of how much demand there would be for the > indicator panel option (for parts ordering; I have a chance to buy some > discontinued stuff, and I want to know how much to stock up on). If you > would be interested in one or more indicator panels, could you let me > know? (Please don't reply to the list, just to me personally.) I should have mentioned that we'll likely do a UNIBUS version of the card (ENABLE+, and it should be easy to guess why that name :-) as soon as we're done with the QBUS one; the same indicator panels would be supported by both (so they count to the parts pool). So if you have a UNIBUS machine, and would be interested in adding an ENABLE+ _with indicator panels_, I would be interested to hear about those too. Thanks! Noel From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 16 10:41:30 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:41:30 -0500 Subject: Advice and Suggestions for a Debug Feature In-Reply-To: References: <5671819F.3020300@compsys.to> Message-ID: <5671943A.5090309@compsys.to> Sorry for that BAD stuff in the Subject line - my e-mail provider stuffs that in much of the time and I forget to remove it when I reply. If anyone needs a clean copy, I can send it again! Jerome Fine From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 16 11:01:39 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:01:39 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> On 12/16/2015 9:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > I threw out a print-only selectric a few years ago ... Regret it now, > > just because it would have been fun to figure it out. C'est la vie. > > I can top that. > > MIT offered me (as a gift) the PDP-11/45 that I used to run; it included a > pair of CalComp 50MB drives, a pair of RK05s, an ABLE ENABLE, 3 H960's, lots > of other goodies. I blew it off, I was too busy dealing with other things at > the time (I was on the IESG at that point) to deal with arranging to get it > shipped down to me. They gave it to someone else, and near as I can work out, > eventually it got scrapped. > > Every time I think about it I kick myself... Sigh! > > Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... > > Noel > Yup. Same here. Was at University of Wisconsin surplus, maybe 25 years ago - used to make regular trips over there, and they knew me pretty well too, and sent a couple of machines my way once they were not interested in them anymore. Anywho, I was looking at a couple of 19" racks containing an odd computer of some sort. Had this funny square keyboard, and what looked like LINCTapes to me. Looked kinda "home brew", using DEC Flip Chips. Well a couple of years later I saw a photo of a LINC, and then it was "head slap" time - I realized I had passed up a LINC. Could have had it for $25. I fear it was probably scrapped. Sigh. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 16 11:11:41 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:11:41 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> Message-ID: <7F125A37-DAFD-4139-84D9-0BAEB8458232@comcast.net> There are similar regrets on a smaller scale. I have one or two of the programs I wrote early on, in listing form. Most I did not save, nor did I save paper tapes or card decks. I have none of the OS/360 programs I wrote in college -- rather unfortunate because there were some unusual things in them. Similarly, there are manuals I used to have that have disappeared; many of those exist elsewhere so I can still get the data, but some I have not seen. CDC Algol 68 manual? CDC 7054 buffer controller programming manual? So it's not just devices that need to be grabbed when possible, but code and documentation as well. paul From ben at bensinclair.com Wed Dec 16 11:34:11 2015 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:34:11 -0600 Subject: Interest level for new PDP-11 indicator panels In-Reply-To: <20151216164345.7362118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151216164345.7362118C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I'm interested in the blinkenlitz! Of course, I'm interested in the controller even without that too! On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > I'm trying to get a sense of how much demand there would be for the > > indicator panel option (for parts ordering; I have a chance to buy some > > discontinued stuff, and I want to know how much to stock up on). If you > > would be interested in one or more indicator panels, could you let me > > know? (Please don't reply to the list, just to me personally.) > > I should have mentioned that we'll likely do a UNIBUS version of the card > (ENABLE+, and it should be easy to guess why that name :-) as soon as we're > done with the QBUS one; the same indicator panels would be supported by both > (so they count to the parts pool). > > So if you have a UNIBUS machine, and would be interested in adding an ENABLE+ > _with indicator panels_, I would be interested to hear about those too. > Thanks! > > Noel -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 16 11:48:34 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:48:34 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> Message-ID: <5671A3F2.2050702@pico-systems.com> On 12/16/2015 11:01 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Anywho, I was looking at a couple of 19" racks containing > an odd computer of some sort. Had this funny square > keyboard, and what looked like LINCTapes to me. Looked > kinda "home brew", using DEC Flip Chips. Well a couple of > years later I saw a photo of a LINC, and then it was "head > slap" time - I realized I had passed up a LINC. Could have > had it for $25. I fear it was probably scrapped. Sigh. A Classic LINC used "system building blocks", generally single-sided boards with an aluminum frame around the board, and a single-row 22-pin connector that was a separate piece, not a card-edge connector. The little keyboard on the Classic LINC was made by Soroban, and it was indeed funny. Each keystroke locked the keyboard, and when the program picked up the character from the buffer, the keyboard unlocked. The delay was often heard, as LAP-6 spent 99% of the time refreshing the screen. If it was real flip-chip modules with the little molded plastic handle, that would have been a LINC-8 or PDP-12. Jon From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 16 11:26:36 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:26:36 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <027701d13786$64e5eb70$2eb1c250$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> <027701d13786$64e5eb70$2eb1c250$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151216172636.GB623@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Tonight I replaced the leaking capacitors on the +12V/-12V board, and also > > replaced the two similar ones that looked and measured fine. I put the PSU > > back together, put in a couple of less important boards and drives, and > the > > machine now seems to power on OK. I measured the ripple using the power > > connector for the front panel and that looks OK too. Unfortunately though, > > that connector only sends out +12V, +5V and -12V. It does not have output > > for +3.3V, so I have not, so far, been able to check the ripple for this. > It is a bit > > awkward to test on the bench with a dummy load. > > > > As I did not replace the capacitors on the +5V/3.3V board, because the > > underside is very hard to access, and I am reluctant to pull them off and > > solder from above, I would like to be sure there is no ripple on the 3.3V > > supply. So, I was wondering if anyone has any neat tricks for probing the > > +3.3V supply with the PSU installed in the machine? > > > > Next job is to replace the capacitors on the little DSSI terminator, they > are > > easy to change. > > > > > I spoke too soon :-( > > The machine stayed on for a couple of minutes and then powered off. I > suspect there is a problem with it detecting an overload that may not > actually be there. Looks like I will need to get a dummy load and put it on > the bench to see if it still happens there. > > I do recall that when it first failed it would stay on for shorter and > shorter periods each time I tried it. So perhaps there is some component > warming up and then causing a failure? > > Regards > > Rob ...sounds very similar to my experience with that PSU. The cure seems to be simple run that machine then mine has stopped powering off now it seems. I don't even know if the power off is because of an detected overload at all, I had problems to even power on the machine the first time before changing the caps. It would start only the approx 5 time if I switched it on and I think that those problems are related. I've installed VMS 7.3 and some additional packages and played for some days with that machine and it is running stable now if I power it on. The only thing that I still have to complain about is that the NiCad Pack is empty again a little to fast for my taste, the Battery was a new one.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 11:57:42 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:57:42 -0500 Subject: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) Message-ID: <006201d1382b$4306e6d0$c914b470$@gmail.com> This was the five-part seminal description of the S/360, published in the IBM Systems Journal, Volume 3, Number 2. I've very much like to read all five parts. Does anyone have a copy that might be shared? Thank you, paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 12:08:16 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:08:16 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 07:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 > at least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not > actually ANSI at all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre > code created from standard 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the > bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't remember). Then there's 6 bit ASCII/USASCII. I was trying to avoid using jargon that some would not understand. I'm quite familiar with IBM EBCDIC "SL" tape labels. My point was that the CMS dumpfile tape isn't even a standard labeled tape. It just starts out with the first block of data and ends with a double filemark. No standard labels anywhere. Any non-CMS system would not know what the heck the thing was. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 12:07:24 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:07:24 +0000 Subject: Diablo 3000 schematics wanted Message-ID: I suspect the answer is no, but before I spend a few afternoons tracing out the diagrams, does anyone have a schematic or (real) service manual for the Diablo/Xerox 3000 computer, in particular the MRPRO CPU board. This is a 1980s all-in-one business desktop computer with 2 internal 8" drives. Based on an 8085 CPU. I have one that was mangled in the house-move (the movers decided to cut the keyboard cable for me). I have now repaired that (and the signals do make sense) but I have other faults (these were probably there before the move, I had not run it for many years). Power lines are fine, CPU chip is getting a clock, but the ready pin is held low. So not a lot happening.... The CPU board is not complicated, really (about 50 ICs, all of them standard) so it is going to be possible for me to trace the schematic if that's what is needed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 11:59:40 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 17:59:40 +0000 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > > Tony, good advice but probably more work than I'm inclined to put in. What I have suggested would take about 10 minutes tops. It has probably taken me longer to type this message than it would take me to figure that out. > As you said there were many interfaces with different standards - > different polarities and timing - and either way it's quite likely Based on Brent's schematic and the date I wonder if it is similar to the HP9866 interface. The connector is wrong, but the signals (7 data lines, strobe, ready, paper out) are right. And it is a machine that was around at the time. Possibly this was to get letter quality output that didn't fade from some machine designed to use that printer. > this will never work with a standard modern parallel port without > building some converter, after first finding out what has to be > converted and designing it! Probably just a matter of inverting some of the signal lines (i.e. '04s) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 12:24:24 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:24:24 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <201512160513.AAA27711@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> <201512160513.AAA27711@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5671AC58.7030604@sydex.com> On 12/15/2015 09:13 PM, Mouse wrote: >> What would you do with a home no screen computer? > > Depends on what counts as a "screen". If any visible output counts, > there isn't much - but I suspect you don't want to go that far. > > You can connect to it from other computers. I have six machines > running right now with no screens on them (though four of them have > the host-side hardware for a screen). > > You can talk to it with a terminal. If a video-display terminal > counts as a screen, use a printing terminal. It's also occurred to me that without screens, we might be better off today (oh boy, am I going to get flack on this one). We might be in the position of being more concise in our computer output. A "screen" is an output device--really, ordinary human input devices haven't changed much. The average web-surfing experience blasts the user with tons of filigree and useless data, but very little useful information. Don't forget that the first games were text-only. Web sites that have multi-megabyte splash screens that serve no purpose other than tell you that you've arrived. It's like your local Walmart hiring a marching band to greet every single customer individually. Data is cheap and Parkinson's law applies. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 13:11:36 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:11:36 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 16 December 2015 18:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy > > On 12/16/2015 07:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 > > at least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not > > actually ANSI at all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre > > code created from standard 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the > > bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't remember). > > Then there's 6 bit ASCII/USASCII. I was trying to avoid using jargon that some > would not understand. I'm quite familiar with IBM EBCDIC "SL" > tape labels. > > My point was that the CMS dumpfile tape isn't even a standard labeled tape. > It just starts out with the first block of data and ends with a double filemark. > No standard labels anywhere. Any non-CMS system would not know what > the heck the thing was. > > --Chuck That's for the same reason MS DOS does not put standard labels on DDS or DAT tape. CMS is the original personal computing environment. Each user gets an individual isolated virtual machine and the IPL's CMS into their machine. CMS is a single-user operating system and within that virtual machine they can do what they want. A normal user can't see much outside their virtual environment, but inside it they are god. They can even single step through CMS. As there are many VMs in a VM/370 environment Users can put whatever they want on their tapes. It is up to the operators or other privileged user to "attach" the physical tapes to the users' virtual machine and mount the tapes with or without a ring. Once its attached the user can put what they want on the tape, provided it has a write ring in it. Trying to insist on standard labels would be pretty pointless. CMS TAPE files are not intended to be used by other systems and the format is undocumented (well except a little in the source code) and has changed several times as disk formats have changed. They contain physical dumps of the DASD (disk) followed by the matching directory block. They may contain multiple files. You know a file is complete when you hit is directory block. So unlike OS tapes you don't need to specify a block factor and record type. You just do "TAPE DUMP where the names may contain the usual wild cards and they get dumped. To see what is on a tape do "TAPE SCAN" and to load them do "TAPE LOAD". No JCL, no DD cards no knowledge of the underlying record formats are required. CMS includes a "MOVEFILE" command that can produce standard label tapes in the usual OS/DOS formats but normally users don't bother unless they are sending tapes to other sites... Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 13:23:39 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:23:39 -0800 Subject: Diablo 3000 schematics wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5671BA3B.10402@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 10:07 AM, tony duell wrote: > I suspect the answer is no, but before I spend a few afternoons > tracing out the diagrams, does anyone have a schematic or (real) > service manual for the Diablo/Xerox 3000 computer, in particular the > MRPRO CPU board. > > This is a 1980s all-in-one business desktop computer with 2 internal > 8" drives. Based on an 8085 CPU. Actually, a 70s micro--I used to work with the guys who did a lot of the development. Of the ones still alive, I doubt that any has held onto design documents. I do know that bits and pieces of 3000 code made it into the Durango machines. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 16 13:31:16 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:31:16 -0600 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <5671AC58.7030604@sydex.com> References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> <000001d136ca$95c1e120$c145a360$@classiccmp.org> <566F6AFD.1090204@sydex.com> <566F5F7D.7050409@gmail.com> <201512160513.AAA27711@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5671AC58.7030604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <000b01d13838$55c54250$014fc6f0$@classiccmp.org> Chuck wrote.... ---------------- > ... without screens, we might be better off today ... ---------------- *Genuflects* Amen. J From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 16 13:39:16 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:39:16 +0000 Subject: IBM Selectric-based Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <045a01d136fd$04d0beb0$0e723c10$@gmail.com> <1F901B37-DC14-47F3-951C-6E7302710909@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC745FC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 4:25 PM > Also, I really want one of those 2741s. Selectrics that can do I/O are > *bleep*ing cool. 2741s are OK. I much preferred the 2740, though. We had those at the Computer-Assisted Instruction Laboratory at the UTexas School of Education (Student job, autumn 1969-autumn 1970), but only 2741s at Ohio State. On the 2741, ETX is tied to the Return key. That made correcting a class of errors in Coursewriter III much harder: Incorrectly inserted labels could not be removed by the author, but only by a systems programmer editing the file on disk. On the 2740, there was a bank of 6 buttons to the upper right of the Selectric keyboard. I only remember 3 labels, because the other 3 didn't do anything special under Coursewriter III or APL\360, but the important ones were EOT, ETX, and EOB. With judicious use of these, newlines could be inserted into the entered text at will, allowing for the selection of labels surrounded by empty lines. It also allowed for security by obscurity: The supervisor password on the Coursewriter III system was 0x4040404040404015, which could not be entered on a 2741. Ah, the Good Old Days(TM)... Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 13:43:29 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:43:29 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 11:11 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > CMS TAPE files are not intended to be used by other systems and the format > is undocumented (well except a little in the source code) and has changed > several times as disk formats have changed. I've been on the receiving end of this before--several times. Damned inconsiderate programmers with no thoughts of the future. Undocumented format--how quaint. Right now, I'm puzzling over a QIC tape that was apparently made early on using Sytos, but the header doesn't match any version of Sytos that I've seen. Wonderful. --Chuck From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 16 13:59:30 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:59:30 +0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC74665@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 7:58 AM > IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 at > least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not actually ANSI at > all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre code created from standard > 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't > remember). Ah, yes, PSW bit 12. Re-used for entirely different purpose on the System/370. ASCII was defined as a 7-bit code in 1963, prior to the announcement of the System/360 family. Unlike every other vendor, who thought that sticking a leading zero on the 7-bit character codes was sufficient, IBM proposed an 8-bit extended ASCII in which the defined 7-bit codes mapped to 8-bit codes thus: ....... ==> ..0..... and extended codes were shaped like ..1..... ! Not even IBM used that, so I doubt that any tape marked AL ever had anything but 0....... ASCII characters on it. (Used to eff around with mag tapes on 360/370 systems all the time when I was younger, but I got better.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 16 14:01:18 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:01:18 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5671C30E.1090507@jwsss.com> On 12/16/2015 7:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Dec 15, 2015, at 10:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> On 12/15/2015 01:48 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >>> What I meant was are they still on 9-track, or some kind of >>> tape-in-a-file disk? IBM tapes are usually written to AWS format >>> files not the formats (.TAP ?) used by SIMH... Some source to extract >>> some versions of these from AWS files (and windows executables) are >>> in this ZIP file:- >> Came right off a 1600 cpi tape, identified as a CMS dumpfile. >> >> What really strikes me as odd, is that ANSI/IBM tape labels were pretty much the standard rule of thumb then; why the heck did IBM invent something new and obscure? > IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 at least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not actually ANSI at all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre code created from standard 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't remember). On the Microdata 1621 system we had it was 4 assembler instructions in a loop to convert a string from Ascii to Ebcdic using that weird ascii code. I use a table now when I code in C to convert from that ASCII to what we call ascii. I call it high bit on ascii, but it isn't precisely that. I have an entire OS that uses that, and I ran across it back in the 70's on a few other minis, but the ANSI version supplanted it early on. FWIW referring to the Jay West 1600's from University of Missouri, Rolla thanks Jim > paul > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 16 14:03:09 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:03:09 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> On 12/16/2015 10:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2015 07:57 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> IBM standard labels are older than ANSI. Then again, IBM (in OS/360 >> at least) had something they called "ANSI label" that were not >> actually ANSI at all. They used "8 bit ASCII" which was a bizarre >> code created from standard 7 bit ASCII by moving one or two of the >> bits (bit 6 to bit 7? I don't remember). > > Then there's 6 bit ASCII/USASCII. I was trying to avoid using jargon > that some would not understand. I'm quite familiar with IBM EBCDIC > "SL" tape labels. > > My point was that the CMS dumpfile tape isn't even a standard labeled > tape. It just starts out with the first block of data and ends with a > double filemark. No standard labels anywhere. Any non-CMS system > would not know what the heck the thing was. > Does the first block have a PSW looking thing in the appropriate start, and an I/O program to boot the next record from the boot device? > --Chuck > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 16 14:04:29 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:04:29 -0000 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? In-Reply-To: References: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02fb01d1383c$f8a76c10$e9f64430$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: 15 December 2015 22:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > The main manual is already available online. I could image the CD-ROMs > > from both boxes (not sure if they are actually different between the > > two) and make that available to archive if it is not already archived > > somewhere so nothing would be really lost if I recycled these. > > I was going to offer to scan and image the lot, but if the scan is already done > and you can image the CDs, that would be ideal. Sorry I didn't reply sooner. I am bit torn by this one. I am usually reluctant to see *any* DEC stuff get recycled, but this is only moderately interesting *now*. Sometimes though, you can end up regretting these things (as per another thread); so if you are prepared to send it to me in the UK, let me know and I will PayPal you the money. Thanks Rob From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Dec 16 14:07:44 2015 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:07:44 +0000 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay West Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 7:57 AM > After a time my parents ordered them out of the house and a "friend" agreed > to store them. A few weeks after moving them to his house, he informed me > that he gave them away and wouldn't tell me to who/where. Apparently they've never found the body... Rich From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 16 14:10:33 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:10:33 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5671C539.5010901@jwsss.com> On 12/16/2015 11:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2015 11:11 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> CMS TAPE files are not intended to be used by other systems and the >> format >> is undocumented (well except a little in the source code) and has >> changed >> several times as disk formats have changed. > > I've been on the receiving end of this before--several times. Damned > inconsiderate programmers with no thoughts of the future. Undocumented > format--how quaint. > > Right now, I'm puzzling over a QIC tape that was apparently made early > on using Sytos, but the header doesn't match any version of Sytos that > I've seen. Wonderful. > I paid for Sytos backup a number of times, but they did run off the rails mad with power. Between them and SCO unix and general experiences concurrent with Stallman's as far as proprietary software was what put me off onto Open Source long in advance of Linux and GPL. I don't agree with the social engineering aspects of Stallman, but I do not see that having hidden source makes any more sense than having a car you can't open the hood on. The engineers and company will loose interest in a product and that sort of disposable attitude makes no sense. Sytos had an excellent product for the time though as far as doing backups. But the back end stuff as Chuck said, not so good. > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:11:44 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:11:44 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <054801d1383d$fcc11d90$f64358b0$@gmail.com> > > > CMS TAPE files are not intended to be used by other systems and the > > format is undocumented (well except a little in the source code) and > > has changed several times as disk formats have changed. > > I've been on the receiving end of this before--several times. Damned > inconsiderate programmers with no thoughts of the future. I think CMS TAPE dates back to 1972 or so. It also has two character years so definitely no thoughts for the future... > Undocumented > format--how quaint. > The manual is pretty clear. Even in 1972 it said .. "The TAPE COMMAND is used solely with CMS files; Therefore, the files are in a unique format". If you wanted to write portable tapes, you used MOVEFILE but most folks didn't because MOVEFILE needed FILEDEF cards to define the block size and record format. > Right now, I'm puzzling over a QIC tape that was apparently made early on > using Sytos, but the header doesn't match any version of Sytos that > I've seen. Wonderful. At least the original VM/370 was open source freeware, so you could figure out the format as you have the assembler source that writes it.... ... and there are Program Logic manuals as well. Ah the joys of computing, wouldn't life be boring if everything worked... > > --Chuck Dave G4UGM p.s. any luck in extracting the files? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 16 14:25:13 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:25:13 -0000 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <7F125A37-DAFD-4139-84D9-0BAEB8458232@comcast.net> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> <7F125A37-DAFD-4139-84D9-0BAEB8458232@comcast.net> Message-ID: <031401d1383f$de7e76a0$9b7b63e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 16 December 2015 17:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 > > There are similar regrets on a smaller scale. I have one or two of the > programs I wrote early on, in listing form. Most I did not save, nor did I save > paper tapes or card decks. I have none of the OS/360 programs I wrote in > college -- rather unfortunate because there were some unusual things in > them. > > Similarly, there are manuals I used to have that have disappeared; many of > those exist elsewhere so I can still get the data, but some I have not seen. > CDC Algol 68 manual? CDC 7054 buffer controller programming manual? I remember using a flavour of Algol 68 on a CDC machine at University, I think it was a CDC Cyber 17, and it may have been Algol68-R. I would still love to find the TOPS-20 port of Algol68C. > > So it's not just devices that need to be grabbed when possible, but code and > documentation as well. > Agreed! Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 16 14:29:48 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:29:48 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <20151216172636.GB623@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> <027701d13786$64e5eb70$2eb1c250$@ntlworld.com> <20151216172636.GB623@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <031501d13840$82106530$86312f90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 16 December 2015 17:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > ...sounds very similar to my experience with that PSU. The cure seems to be > simple run that machine then mine has stopped powering off now it seems. > > I don't even know if the power off is because of an detected overload at all, I > had problems to even power on the machine the first time before changing > the caps. It would start only the approx 5 time if I switched it on and I think > that those problems are related. > I intend to do some more analysis and testing before putting the PSU back in the machine. I just tried using a current-limited bench PSU on the outputs of the PSU to see if one of them behaves oddly. I suspect the -12V output is not right, it sucked up more than 1A with just 0.3V across it. The other outputs sucked up much less current and increased slowly. Of course it could have been a totally invalid test, but I know in some circumstances it can help to see if the output stage and the crowbar is working. > I've installed VMS 7.3 and some additional packages and played for some > days with that machine and it is running stable now if I power it on. > The only thing that I still have to complain about is that the NiCad Pack is > empty again a little to fast for my taste, the Battery was a new one.. > Some people suggest removing those batteries altogether, to avoid damaging leaks. Regards Rob From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:29:12 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:29:12 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <89151681A80A4BB4A7A725F0CDC28ADB@310e2> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote: > The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? --- I started in the IT field way back in 1962 working for a service bureau preparing payroll cheques, invoices, the usual accounting reports, market research statistics etc. for clients, and the first time I used a screen-oriented system was when I bought a Commodore PET in 1977; as a matter of fact none of the systems I worked on professionally at that time had screens either and used printing 'terminals' to keep an audit trail of what the operator had entered. So you can definitely do lots of useful stuff without a screen, although I imagine NetFlix or YouTube on a Selectric terminal might lose something... m From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 14:34:01 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:34:01 +0000 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > opps... The "N" parts are easier to find. > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 5:49 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I think that is a BA11-M in the picture. The M parts are easier to find. > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren > > wrote: > > > >> Hi > >> > >> It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage > >> and power supply. Looks just like this: > >> > >> > >> > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg > >> > >> The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to > >> make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: > >> > >> http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg > >> > >> Does anyone have one for sale? > >> > >> The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine > >> got a small crack in it. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Pontus. > >> > > > > > -- That is a nice peice!! thanks for thw pic. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 14:35:12 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:35:12 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 12:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > Does the first block have a PSW looking thing in the appropriate > start, and an I/O program to boot the next record from the boot > device? Not to my eye--it starts off thusly: 02 c3 d4 e2 c6 Looks more like 02 "CMSF" --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 14:45:08 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:45:08 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <054801d1383d$fcc11d90$f64358b0$@gmail.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> <054801d1383d$fcc11d90$f64358b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5671CD54.7050105@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 12:11 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > p.s. any luck in extracting the files? Yes! Peter Coghlan has graciously offered to jump into the fray and take care of this. Results will make for a very happy customer. A lot of this conversion stuff is coming down to the question "Will I ever see another one of these in my lifetime?". If the answer is "no", I get increasingly lazy when it comes to spinning code of my own. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 16 14:42:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 20:42:17 +0000 Subject: Diablo 3000 schematics wanted In-Reply-To: <5671BA3B.10402@sydex.com> References: , <5671BA3B.10402@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > > This is a 1980s all-in-one business desktop computer with 2 internal > > 8" drives. Based on an 8085 CPU. > > Actually, a 70s micro--I used to work with the guys who did a lot of the Right. I was going by the date codes on the ICs, etc. Makes sense it could be earlier. They should have come across SMPSUs by then, though ;-). The 5V linear regulator has 7 TIP3055 transistors in parallel (with equalising resistors) and another TIP3055 to drive them. Based on the voltages around there it is only about 30% efficient. >From what I can see the logic looks fairly standard (apart from the disk controller...) so figuring it out, at least the bit I think I need to figure out, will not take too long. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:04:59 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:04:59 +0100 Subject: M7859 KY11-LB PROM contents? Message-ID: Has anyone dumped the contents of the bipolar PROMs of the M7859, KY11-LB, programmer's console form the 11/34 and 11/04? Dump for both the program PROMS (512x4 4 pieces) and the decoding PROM (32x8 one piece) are sought after. It has a 8008 chip onboard but my logic analyzer trace is not matching very well with the listing in the manual. Maybe the revisions have changed from the manual. And I cannot find the PROM contents in the engineering drawing. /Mattis From jws at jwsss.com Wed Dec 16 15:19:40 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:19:40 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> If it's an 80 byte record, the PSW is further into the block. the first 80 positions from the Green card should be a clue. thanks jim On 12/16/2015 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2015 12:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> Does the first block have a PSW looking thing in the appropriate >> start, and an I/O program to boot the next record from the boot >> device? > > Not to my eye--it starts off thusly: > > 02 c3 d4 e2 c6 > > Looks more like 02 "CMSF" > > --Chuck > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 16 15:35:08 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:35:08 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5671D90C.7000502@jwsss.com> From the IBM 360/40 functional characteristics: When IPL is initiated, the selected input device starts reading. The first 24 bytes read are placed in storage locations 0-23. Storage protection, program controlled interruption, and a possible incorrect length indication are ignored. The double word read into location 8 is used as the channel command word (ccw) for a subsequent I/O operation. When chaining is specified in this ccw, the operation proceeds with the ccw in location 16. Either command chaining or data chain- ing may be specified. After the input operation is performed, the I/O ad- dress is stored in bits 21-31 of the first word in storage. Bi~s 16-20 are made zero. Bits 0-15 remain unchanged. The CPU subsequently fetches the double word in location 0 as a new psw and proceeds under control of the new psw. The load light is turned off. When the I/O operations and psw loading are not completed sat- isfactorily, the CPU idles, and the load light remains on. I think that the 24 bytes besides covering useful locations in the bottom of memory may be the minimum record size for the half inch drives. So you may see 24 bytes or you may see 80. I've been used to seeing a two "card" boot somewhere, but that isn't the discussion here, since we are talking probably a cms file. Also may be off in the weeds, as far as this is concerned. if you bring up a copy of the VM/370, and convert this to an AWS tape, on some available CMS drive, you should be able to read it in with some command line incantation. How you would edit it from there with the public domain VM/370's editing is anyones guess. XEDIT is licensed, so you won't have something easy to use to edit and save it if it is a text file. By the time you figure all that out, assuming you don't regularly use either VM/370 or MVS 3.8 on Hercules, or have access to IBM facilities to use actual IBM products, coding and squinting at your results will probably produce the result faster. I'm guessing you already have it in process anyway. thanks JIm On 12/16/2015 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/16/2015 12:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> Does the first block have a PSW looking thing in the appropriate >> start, and an I/O program to boot the next record from the boot >> device? > > Not to my eye--it starts off thusly: > > 02 c3 d4 e2 c6 > > Looks more like 02 "CMSF" > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:42:31 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:42:31 +0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> Message-ID: No psw on a cms tape. It's just a dump of the disk blocks. On Dec 16, 2015 9:24 PM, "jwsmobile" wrote: > If it's an 80 byte record, the PSW is further into the block. the first > 80 positions from the Green card should be a clue. > > thanks > jim > > On 12/16/2015 12:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/16/2015 12:03 PM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> Does the first block have a PSW looking thing in the appropriate >>> start, and an I/O program to boot the next record from the boot >>> device? >>> >> >> Not to my eye--it starts off thusly: >> >> 02 c3 d4 e2 c6 >> >> Looks more like 02 "CMSF" >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 16 15:36:39 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:36:39 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <031401d1383f$de7e76a0$9b7b63e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> <7F125A37-DAFD-4139-84D9-0BAEB8458232@comcast.net> <031401d1383f$de7e76a0$9b7b63e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <92D0557C-E0C6-4ACB-8681-D749B4FE18EE@comcast.net> > On Dec 16, 2015, at 3:25 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> ... >> Similarly, there are manuals I used to have that have disappeared; many of >> those exist elsewhere so I can still get the data, but some I have not > seen. >> CDC Algol 68 manual? CDC 7054 buffer controller programming manual? > > I remember using a flavour of Algol 68 on a CDC machine at University, I > think it was a CDC Cyber 17, and it may have been Algol68-R. No, it was a version developed by CDC Rijswijk (Holland), documented in a thesis I have lying around somewhere. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 15:46:22 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:46:22 +0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671CD54.7050105@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <052d01d13835$96532ab0$c2f98010$@gmail.com> <5671BEE1.8000902@sydex.com> <054801d1383d$fcc11d90$f64358b0$@gmail.com> <5671CD54.7050105@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 16, 2015 8:54 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 12/16/2015 12:11 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> >> >> p.s. any luck in extracting the files? > > > Yes! Peter Coghlan has graciously offered to jump into the fray and take care of this. Results will make for a very happy customer. > OK ask off line if he fails... > A lot of this conversion stuff is coming down to the question "Will I ever see another one of these in my lifetime?". If the answer is "no", I get increasingly lazy when it comes to spinning code of my own. I know the feeling > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 16 16:13:49 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:13:49 -0800 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5671E21D.4030702@sydex.com> On 12/16/2015 01:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > If it's an 80 byte record, the PSW is further into the block. the > first 80 positions from the Green card should be a clue. No, the first record is 4101 bytes long. Interestingly, all blocks on this tape are an odd number of bytes in length. --Chuck From mark at markesystems.com Wed Dec 16 15:58:02 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:58:02 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Subject: Re: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > I threw out a print-only selectric a few years ago ... Regret it now, > > just because it would have been fun to figure it out. C'est la vie. > > I can top that. <...> > Every time I think about it I kick myself... Sigh! > > Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... Yep. Among the things that I have given away (to Goodwill, or possibly Salvation Army) - all in running condition: - A complete HP-1000 system: A600 processor with internal hard drive, serial card + 8-port serial mux, all floppies, all documentation, a 2631G printer, 7912 13 MB disk drive, and two 2624B terminals - My CP/M "network", with Cromemco Z2-H with two 5 MB hard drives and two 8" floppies, 8-port serial card, connected to three H-19 terminals (the BIOS allowed you to become the console by typing ^C anywhere), HP2648 graphics terminal with tape cartridges, HP 2762 terminal (a re-badged GE Terminet-300), and an H-89 with three external floppies - Ancient SCM TypeTronic system, with the main typewriter console, two 30 CPS optical paper-tape readers, two really nice (re-branded CDC) 30 CPS punches, 2816 main control unit, and 7816 arithmetic unit (with internal fixed-head disk - 9 words plus a buffer, 30 digits/sec transfer rate!) - Abandoned to rust away in a garage: a Teletype KSR-33 with punch and reader, of course, and a built-in modem with acoustic coupler, in perfect condition - Turned down - a complete HP-3000 system, with two Eagle 76936 512 MB drives, 32 serial ports, 2617A 600 LPM printer, and a few 2640 and 2622 terminals Did I mention that *everything* was in perfect working condition? I'm going to go shoot myself now. ~~ Mark Moulding From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 16 16:25:18 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:25:18 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley In-Reply-To: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> References: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> Message-ID: <001501d13850$a5386250$efa926f0$@classiccmp.org> Mark wrote... --------- Among the things that I have given away (to Goodwill, or possibly Salvation Army) - all in running condition: ...[snip a list of equipment I'd *LOVE* to have]... --------- I just put in an application for employment at Goodwill/Salvation army ;) J From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Dec 16 16:26:57 2015 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:26:57 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley In-Reply-To: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> References: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> Message-ID: <4E163863-05D8-4B98-BEF3-9E5EA2366CC6@lunar-tokyo.net> > On Dec 16, 2015, at 3:58 PM, wrote: > > I'm going to go shoot myself now. At least nothing you?ve destroyed was the last example on earth. I drove two RM03s cross-country without locking the heads, then destroyed a stack of rare PDP-10 disk packs (including a RED pack and an ITS system pack) by trying to read them. I failed to recognize the screeching metal-on-metal sound as bad and ruined one pack after another, only realizing what I had done after they were all gone. I then lost a TU45 and its formatter by failing to take it with me when I got kicked out of my mother?s house. I left it behind with a set of maintenance manuals and schematics for the IBM System/34, all of which were scrapped and/or dumped by my mother?s new boyfriend. No amount of penance and/or self-loathing will ever recover those bits, but I hate myself and kick myself all the same. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 16 16:54:29 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:54:29 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <5671A3F2.2050702@pico-systems.com> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <567198F3.7080506@charter.net> <5671A3F2.2050702@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5671EBA5.8090205@charter.net> On 12/16/2015 11:48 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/16/2015 11:01 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> Anywho, I was looking at a couple of 19" racks containing an odd >> computer of some sort. Had this funny square keyboard, and what looked >> like LINCTapes to me. Looked kinda "home brew", using DEC Flip Chips. >> Well a couple of years later I saw a photo of a LINC, and then it was >> "head slap" time - I realized I had passed up a LINC. Could have had >> it for $25. I fear it was probably scrapped. Sigh. > A Classic LINC used "system building blocks", generally single-sided > boards with an aluminum frame around the board, and a single-row 22-pin > connector that was a separate piece, not a card-edge connector. > The little keyboard on the Classic LINC was made by Soroban, and it was > indeed funny. Each keystroke locked the keyboard, and when the program > picked up the character from the buffer, the keyboard unlocked. The > delay was often heard, as LAP-6 spent 99% of the time refreshing the > screen. > > If it was real flip-chip modules with the little molded plastic handle, > that would have been a LINC-8 or PDP-12. > > Jon > I would have recognized a LINC 8. It may well be that I mis-remembered them being Flip Chip modules. From js at cimmeri.com Wed Dec 16 17:02:54 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:02:54 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret In-Reply-To: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> References: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> Message-ID: <5671ED9E.6010600@cimmeri.com> On 12/16/2015 4:58 PM, mark at markesystems.com wrote: > > Yep. Among the things that I have > given away (to Goodwill, or possibly > Salvation Army) - all in running > condition: > > - A complete HP-1000 system: A600 > processor with internal hard drive, > serial card + 8-port serial mux, all > floppies, all documentation, a 2631G > printer, 7912 13 MB disk drive, and > two 2624B terminals > > .... > > I'm going to go shoot myself now. > ~~ > I'm curious, why were these given to a Goodwill / Salvation Army of all places? These places don't have the first clue of what to do with items like these.. and they tend to be overwhelmed with stuff anyway. Not everything goes out for sale. - J. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 17:03:55 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 23:03:55 -0000 Subject: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy In-Reply-To: <5671E21D.4030702@sydex.com> References: <566FB160.6030009@sydex.com> <00fb01d1374e$912605e0$b37211a0$@gmail.com> <56704E41.4080302@sydex.com> <00b901d13782$47922010$d6b66030$@gmail.com> <5670D62A.1@sydex.com> <82256686-9D86-49D7-A39C-699852C60321@comcast.net> <5671A890.4050201@sydex.com> <5671C37D.1000708@jwsss.com> <5671CB00.1010904@sydex.com> <5671D56C.1010705@jwsss.com> <5671E21D.4030702@sydex.com> Message-ID: <055001d13856$0a4a27f0$1ede77d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 16 December 2015 22:14 > To: jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM CMS dumpfile idiocy > > On 12/16/2015 01:19 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > If it's an 80 byte record, the PSW is further into the block. the > > first 80 positions from the Green card should be a clue. > > No, the first record is 4101 bytes long. Interestingly, all blocks on this tape > are an odd number of bytes in length. > > --Chuck There is a 0x02 character, followed by "CMS" in EBCDIC then a record type "V", "F" or "N" for the file status table. >From the "cmstape.c" I sent you the link too.... /* * Format of a CMS TAPE DUMP tape entry for each file: * * 1) One or more blocks like this: * +--+-+-+-+-+-+-+-----/ /-+-+-+----- * |02|C M S V| l | data... | l | data... * +--+-+-+-+-+-+-+-----/ /-+-+-+----- * <-----------4101 bytes max----------> * * or this (for fixed records (lrecl in the FST)): * +--+-+-+-+-+-----/ /-+-+-+----- * |02|C M S F| data... | l | data... * +--+-+-+-+-+-----/ /-+-+-+----- * <-----------4101 bytes max----------> * * 2) Followed by an ending FST + filename * +--+-+-+-+-+------------+ * |02|C M S N| FST data | * +--+-+-+-+-+------------+ * <-------87 bytes------> Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 16 17:47:33 2015 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:47:33 -0700 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <89151681A80A4BB4A7A725F0CDC28ADB@310e2> References: <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <89151681A80A4BB4A7A725F0CDC28ADB@310e2> Message-ID: <5671F815.9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/16/2015 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > So you can definitely do lots of useful stuff without a screen, > although I imagine NetFlix or YouTube on a Selectric terminal might > lose something... > m Yes, Audio. :-) From jim at deitygraveyard.com Wed Dec 16 17:49:35 2015 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:49:35 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a copy of DIGITAL ServerWORKS Manager ? In-Reply-To: References: <01e601d13704$ccb42550$661c6ff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Dec 15, 2015 16:36, "Glen Slick" wrote: > The main manual is already available online. I could image the CD-ROMs > from both boxes (not sure if they are actually different between the > two) and make that available to archive if it is not already archived > somewhere so nothing would be really lost if I recycled these. That would be nice to have archived. And I just looked and couldn't find it anywhere. Jim From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 18:19:50 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 01:19:50 +0100 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 December 2015 at 23:16, Ian S. King wrote: > And think of all the PDP-8s *still* buried in the control units of > factories across the world. The majority of these machines had no > displays, not even teleprinters. Some had custom controls wired in through > stock or custom modules, and some had no more "UI" than the front panel > ("set switches 2 and 3 to the 'on' position and press the 'run' key"). > Some didn't even have that - the stock 8/m was a turnkey system. The > reasoning was the same as that behind the microcontroller replacing the > 555: complex behavior could be modeled in software rather than intricate > analog elements, and it was easy to change things if you needed to (e.g., > if you changed out an instrument or effector. Much the same reason that ARM cores are widely embedded today. AIUI it, it is typical for a modern smartphone not merely to be based on a multicore ARM CPU, but to contain something ITRO half a dozen other ARM cores as well. The main CPU may well be a big.LITTLE device -- e.g. 8 cores, 4 complex superscalar fast ones which take lots of electricity, and 4 small simple dumber ones *with the same instruction set* that use very little but have a much lower IPC, so that the phone's OS can switch between fast cores and power-frugal cores depending on load and available battery power. Then the Wifi chip contains an ARM core running part of the stack, and so does the Bluetooth chip, and so does the NFC chip, and so does the power-management chip, and so does the battery-monitoring chip, and so does the USB controller... etc. ARM cores can be *very* cheap to license, and it's easier to implement stuff in software and run it on a tiny slow ARM core than build hardware to do it. By the same token, a colleague and friend of mine recently discovered this gem & Tweeted it: Chris Williams ?@diodesign TIL modern Intel chipsets have a hidden SPARC core (inside Intel's Management Engine) https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf ? (2014) 2:59 AM - 14 Dec 2015 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 16 18:26:54 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:26:54 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 16, 2015, at 4:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > TIL modern Intel chipsets have a hidden SPARC core (inside Intel's > Management Engine) > https://recon.cx/2014/slides/Recon%202014%20Skochinsky.pdf ? (2014) > Don?t get me started on ME. Also be careful about inferring too much from Baytrail. Other PCH?s SoCs do different things and use different uC?s. The choices of uCs within Intel?s parts varies from generation to generation and also between families. TTFN - Guy From steven at malikoff.com Wed Dec 16 18:41:24 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:41:24 +1000 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley In-Reply-To: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> References: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> Message-ID: <98d879994ea7dfd4b749a35cbfb109f8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> My Dad used to bring home bits of dead System/360 from work, my brother and I would of course pull this stuff to bits 'just to see what was inside'. Printer trains, SLT cards, a pile of SMS cards from his earlier workings with IBM 650s, all sorts of bits of electronic and electromechanical items. Dad turned a punched-card sorter chassis into a workshop bench, I recall it was dark charcoal grey and had a pull-out bucket on the front, not sure if that was for cards or chads. One thing we had fun with was one of those 2260 delay line units recently discussed here. Inside the box was a beautifully coiled length of Nichrome(?) wire, zooiiinnggg that was out, played with by stretching and tapping on the wire, and most likely thrown out. I had a complete General Automation SPC-16 minicomputer in a 6' rack, ASR33, two Documation card readers, disk packs with DBOS I think. This took up quite a bit of room in my flat so I sold it off very very cheaply, practically gave it away. Wish I had it now, of course. Along with my S-100 system, that went to the same buyer, a uni student I recall. Dad brought home a disposed-of 2741 I/O Selectric we were going to interface to our F-8. Never got done so it sat in the cupboard for decades. It disappeared when my folks moved interstate. Recently I found the platen from it in their garden shed. It still has the terminal- style knobs on the ends, like on the 1052 terminal but grey instead of blue. I'll save that for the time I get around to looking at some form of Selectric I/O, or at least as a keepsake of the stuff we had :) Steve. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Dec 16 21:59:01 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 21:59:01 -0600 Subject: DEC CPUs, Memory for sale Message-ID: I have the following for sale from zip 61853. The "L" boards are up to 2 for $10 shipping within USA, 3 for $10 shipping for the "M" boards. For larger quantity, overseas shipments, or other question, please contact me off list. Quantities are limited, and I may have some third party memory i'll look for this weekend. L4000-AA ,KA670 I think, $100 L4001-Bx MS670 32MB $125 L4001-Cx MS670 64MB $200 L4004-Cx MS690 64MB $125 L4004-Dx MS670 128MB $225 M7606 KA630 $75 M7620 KA650 $100 M8637 MSV11 starting at $75 I still have a few RX8-E boards left... Thanks, Paul From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 00:26:17 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 19:26:17 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Dec-15, at 6:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> >> I have taken Brent up on that :-) >> >> I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together >> before I decide if the effort is worth it. > > > First crack can be picked up here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf > > There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. > Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some connections around those. > If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red I can update the schematic. > > I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely scenario: > D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 is likely the ASCII LSB. > nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like active-low. > BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / READY / ACK. Amazing work Brent! I've wired the thing up in accordance with your schematics and here are the results: On power-up the line we believe is Strobe is high; all others are low - and I'm monitoring the printer side of the interface here. I cat file.name > /dev/lp0 The printer prints a character; Linux is waiting. The line we presume to be Busy/Ready flickers briefly high as it is printed. I toggle the local/com switch from com to local and back to com: another character is printed. Linux waits. I can sometimes continue this process one character at a time by toggling the local/com switch. At other times toggling the switch sends Linux straight back to the command prompt. The characters printed are pretty exclusively semicolons underscores and 8s. The carriage never advances; all characters are printed at the same spot. Further observations: - If I initiate the print with the Strobe line disconnected Linux returns to the command prompt instantly and nothing is printed. - If I disconnect the Strobe line after printing has started Linux returns to the command prompt instantly after the com/local switch is cycled - If I disconnect the Busy line prior to starting to print nothing is printed until I connect the Busy line - If I print a character by cycling the local/com switch with the Busy line disconnected a *second* character is printed when I reconnect it. - Busy flickers high every time a character is printed. The status of the Strobe line never visibly changes; it always appears high. Might put a scope on those... There's clearly something funky going on with signaling - timing or active high vs. active low. At no time does the printer *ever* print more than one character without some manual intervention. http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 01:50:05 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:50:05 +0100 Subject: Precision Instruments PI1200 7 track tape drive, interest anyone? Message-ID: We have this Precision Instruments PI1200 7 track tape drive. It can do 200 bpi, 556 bpi and 800 bpi. It should be an incremental type tape drive. Once upon a time (read seventies) it was used for experiments storing PCM audio on tape. But has since then not been used. The manual is somewhere nearby, but I didn't find it immediately. http://i.imgur.com/kYVLN9O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LsWcLL0.jpg http://i.imgur.com/1LJLKAZ.jpg I guess that someone that need to recover old 7 track tapes might think it can be useful. It is located in Sweden. /Mattis From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 00:11:12 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 01:11:12 -0500 Subject: Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 12:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've only ever seen them called "12" and "11" for the top and next >>>> rows respectively. For example, the card code listing on the IBM 360 >>>> "green card" shows them that way (e.g., A is 12-1). >>>> >>> Same here. But it's not outside the range of possibility that *someone* >>> called them X and Y, although I don't know who did. Doug Jones doesn't >>> mention it. >>> >> > On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I have seen ICT punches labelled this way. There is one here where "X" and >> "Y" have been manually added. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keypunch#/media/File:Hand-operated_Card_Punch- >> 2.jpg >> I think the one I own is labelled.... >> > > In my experience, they were called 'X'/'Y', or "12"/"11", but there were > occasional other names, even "high"/"low". Since the cards were not > marked, people could come up with all sorts of other cockamamie choices. > > > Let's not forget the System/3 96-column cards. BA8421 (sort of like > >> 7-track mag tape), with a really wacky way to combine the columns to > make >> 8-bit bytes. >> > Univac, of course, had their own system with their double-45 column > >> system, round holes and all. >> > > There were "window" cards that carried a piece of micro-fiche. Were the > makers of those aware of Gldberg's "Rapid-Selector" and/or Vannevar Bush's > Memex? (Both of which were motion picture film based microfilm with > optical reading of dot patterns for selection) > > There were even punched cards that also carried a mag-stripe (a > transitional device?) > I even saw some crude attempts to implement McBee edge sort - set of holes > around the perimeter that were linked or not linked with a slot to the > edge; poke a knitting needle through the hole(s) and see which ones shook > out. Some also carried "normal" punched card data punched on them. > Only once did I see a "multi-value" system - multiple holes punched in a > column, and edge slot going varying number of holes deep - "I want a value > of greater than or equal 3": poke the needle through 3, and 3, 2, and 1 > would all shake out. > > My father claimed that the use of round holes on divergent cards was due > to an attempt by IBM to patent the shape of the hole in the cards. He also > thought that the development of optical card readers was significantly > boosted along by an IBM attempt to patent use of a brass roller. > > For "The National Driving Test" (CBS 1966?), he had a sample MAIL back > port-a-punch (pre-perfed alternate columns) cards! > IBM succeeded in reading them! But, IBM's statistical programming > resulted in our whole family starting to learn FORTRAN the next day. > > -- I would love to have a micro and all of the 70 and 80- 87 Honda Motorcycle parts! The old ATC's Gotta Love em! From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 07:08:02 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:08:02 -0400 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5672B3B2.2070206@gmail.com> On 2015-12-17 2:26 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2015-Dec-15, at 6:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >>> >>> I have taken Brent up on that :-) >>> >>> I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together >>> before I decide if the effort is worth it. >> >> First crack can be picked up here: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf >> >> There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. >> Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some connections around those. >> If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red I can update the schematic. >> >> I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely scenario: >> D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 is likely the ASCII LSB. >> nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like active-low. >> BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / READY / ACK. > Amazing work Brent! > > I've wired the thing up in accordance with your schematics and here > are the results: > > On power-up the line we believe is Strobe is high; all others are low > - and I'm monitoring the printer side of the interface here. > > I cat file.name > /dev/lp0 > > The printer prints a character; Linux is waiting. The line we presume > to be Busy/Ready flickers briefly high as it is printed. > > I toggle the local/com switch from com to local and back to com: > another character is printed. Linux waits. I can sometimes continue > this process one character at a time by toggling the local/com switch. > At other times toggling the switch sends Linux straight back to the > command prompt. > > The characters printed are pretty exclusively semicolons underscores and 8s. > > The carriage never advances; all characters are printed at the same spot. > > Further observations: > > - If I initiate the print with the Strobe line disconnected Linux > returns to the command prompt instantly and nothing is printed. > - If I disconnect the Strobe line after printing has started Linux > returns to the command prompt instantly after the com/local switch is > cycled > - If I disconnect the Busy line prior to starting to print nothing is > printed until I connect the Busy line > - If I print a character by cycling the local/com switch with the Busy > line disconnected a *second* character is printed when I reconnect it. > - Busy flickers high every time a character is printed. The status of > the Strobe line never visibly changes; it always appears high. Might > put a scope on those... > > There's clearly something funky going on with signaling - timing or > active high vs. active low. At no time does the printer *ever* print > more than one character without some manual intervention. > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' 1. If the carriage never advances that is a mechanical problem, the escapement is triggered by a cam on the filter shaft. If the cords are off, these are white nylon cords attached to each side of the carrier, the carrier will not move. It is also possible something is jamming the carrier. 2. There must be more electronics in this than the one card. There would need to be a 5V power supply for the logic and 48V power supply for the solenoids (magnets). There would also need to be drivers for the magnets, there is nothing on the board with the logic to drive the 48V magnets. 3. It would be helpful to know where the signals inside the typer go. My guess would be the outputs from the PROMs would go to drivers for the selection and function magnets, and one of the others must go to pick the cycle clutch, but there would need to be some way to inhibit that for functions, and I don't see that on the schematic. Some of the inputs on the extreme left of the diagram likely go to feedback contacts, but it would be helpful to know which ones. 4. It is possible the expected feedback from the typer is not happening due to a contaminated contact. If the contacts are gold coloured, they are gold plated and you should not use anything abrasive to clean them. Paul. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 07:56:48 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 02:56:48 +1300 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <5672B3B2.2070206@gmail.com> References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> <5672B3B2.2070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: In extreme brief as nearly 3am and I've been hacking late on a 3277 :) 1. The mechanism has just been extensively serviced by an expert and works perfectly in local typewriter mode. 2. Possible bad contacts had occurred to me and will be investigated. 3. Yes there's another board that drives the mechanism! I'll get pics. Mike On Dec 18, 2015 2:08 AM, "Paul Berger" wrote: > On 2015-12-17 2:26 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> On 2015-Dec-15, at 6:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Mike Stein >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have taken Brent up on that :-) >>>> >>>> I'll poke a bit more myself and see what we can work out together >>>> before I decide if the effort is worth it. >>>> >>> >>> First crack can be picked up here: >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf >>> >>> There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. >>> Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some >>> connections around those. >>> If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red >>> I can update the schematic. >>> >>> I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely >>> scenario: >>> D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 >>> is likely the ASCII LSB. >>> nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like >>> active-low. >>> BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this >>> active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / >>> READY / ACK. >>> >> Amazing work Brent! >> >> I've wired the thing up in accordance with your schematics and here >> are the results: >> >> On power-up the line we believe is Strobe is high; all others are low >> - and I'm monitoring the printer side of the interface here. >> >> I cat file.name > /dev/lp0 >> >> The printer prints a character; Linux is waiting. The line we presume >> to be Busy/Ready flickers briefly high as it is printed. >> >> I toggle the local/com switch from com to local and back to com: >> another character is printed. Linux waits. I can sometimes continue >> this process one character at a time by toggling the local/com switch. >> At other times toggling the switch sends Linux straight back to the >> command prompt. >> >> The characters printed are pretty exclusively semicolons underscores and >> 8s. >> >> The carriage never advances; all characters are printed at the same spot. >> >> Further observations: >> >> - If I initiate the print with the Strobe line disconnected Linux >> returns to the command prompt instantly and nothing is printed. >> - If I disconnect the Strobe line after printing has started Linux >> returns to the command prompt instantly after the com/local switch is >> cycled >> - If I disconnect the Busy line prior to starting to print nothing is >> printed until I connect the Busy line >> - If I print a character by cycling the local/com switch with the Busy >> line disconnected a *second* character is printed when I reconnect it. >> - Busy flickers high every time a character is printed. The status of >> the Strobe line never visibly changes; it always appears high. Might >> put a scope on those... >> >> There's clearly something funky going on with signaling - timing or >> active high vs. active low. At no time does the printer *ever* print >> more than one character without some manual intervention. >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> > 1. If the carriage never advances that is a mechanical problem, the > escapement is triggered by a cam on the filter shaft. If the cords are > off, these are white nylon cords attached to each side of the carrier, the > carrier will not move. It is also possible something is jamming the > carrier. > > 2. There must be more electronics in this than the one card. There would > need to be a 5V power supply for the logic and 48V power supply for the > solenoids (magnets). There would also need to be drivers for the magnets, > there is nothing on the board with the logic to drive the 48V magnets. > > 3. It would be helpful to know where the signals inside the typer go. My > guess would be the outputs from the PROMs would go to drivers for the > selection and function magnets, and one of the others must go to pick the > cycle clutch, but there would need to be some way to inhibit that for > functions, and I don't see that on the schematic. Some of the inputs on > the extreme left of the diagram likely go to feedback contacts, but it > would be helpful to know which ones. > > 4. It is possible the expected feedback from the typer is not happening > due to a contaminated contact. If the contacts are gold coloured, they are > gold plated and you should not use anything abrasive to clean them. > > Paul. > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Thu Dec 17 09:42:50 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:42:50 -0700 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: I regret that when I obtained my Straight 8 system in the early 80's I chose not to take the ASR-35. In retrospect this was a huge mistake. My thinking at the time was in addition to not having room for it it was noisy and would be difficult to maintain. I used my Processor Tech Sol 20 as the terminal because it has a current loop interface and could operate at 110 baud. A glass terminal is not the same experience as a teletype. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Dec 17 09:52:41 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:52:41 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <031501d13840$82106530$86312f90$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <20151211074201.GA15730@beast.freibergnet.de> <005301d135bd$7e725c10$7b571430$@ntlworld.com> <027001d13778$88a8c4a0$99fa4de0$@ntlworld.com> <027701d13786$64e5eb70$2eb1c250$@ntlworld.com> <20151216172636.GB623@beast.freibergnet.de> <031501d13840$82106530$86312f90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151217155241.GA85617@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm > Tiffe > > Sent: 16 December 2015 17:27 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > ...sounds very similar to my experience with that PSU. The cure seems to > be > > simple run that machine then mine has stopped powering off now it seems. > > > > I don't even know if the power off is because of an detected overload at > all, I > > had problems to even power on the machine the first time before changing > > the caps. It would start only the approx 5 time if I switched it on and I > think > > that those problems are related. > > > > I intend to do some more analysis and testing before putting the PSU back in > the machine. I just tried using a current-limited bench PSU on the outputs > of the PSU to see if one of them behaves oddly. I suspect the -12V output is > not right, it sucked up more than 1A with just 0.3V across it. The other > outputs sucked up much less current and increased slowly. ..sounds at least interresting. Maybe you have a bad Tantal Capacitor somewhere on the boards.. Try to pull boards until the current decreases... > > Of course it could have been a totally invalid test, but I know in some > circumstances it can help to see if the output stage and the crowbar is > working. Whatever you want.. I'm curious what you will find out. > > > I've installed VMS 7.3 and some additional packages and played for some > > days with that machine and it is running stable now if I power it on. > > The only thing that I still have to complain about is that the NiCad Pack > is > > empty again a little to fast for my taste, the Battery was a new one.. > > > > Some people suggest removing those batteries altogether, to avoid damaging > leaks. > > Regards > > Rob > The machine is build to contain those NC Packs, and yes I know that gases from the Cells will corrode the electronics around it. But the machine had some years running time on it and the corrosion effects are pretty small, so I think with the fitted new battery it will last some additional and I could handle this. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Dec 17 10:17:37 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Dec 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > No leaking ChemiCon SXF-series capacitors inside? They seem to suffer > > from some kind of design or manufacturing defect and consequently the > > electrolyte gets through the seal eventually even in parts never used. A > > number of DEC PSUs have these capacitors, including the H7874 PSU which > > BA430/BA440 VAX 4000 cabinets use. > > > Just opened it up and there are indeed leaking caps, the brown ones. There > is also a strange deposit on a couple of screws (picture here: > http://1drv.ms/1micVN7), but the screws are nowhere near the leaking > capacitors. Any thoughts on that? Obviously zinc plating of the screw has come in reaction with something. It doesn't seem from the photo electrolyte could have reached there, however I'd double check that, in particular inspect the surface of the PCB throughout looking for any difference in appearance. This stuff can reach far, e.g. in one of my failed H7821 PSUs which was unfortunately stored at an angle to its proper operational position (or otherwise the upside down position of problematic capacitors have prevented the seal from failing), electrolyte travelled at least 15cm/6" away from the failed capacitor. And this screw is located in a bottom corner of the PSU when in its operational position so gravity will drive leaked electrolyte towards it even if capillary action does not. Other than that I have no idea. Lead or tin from the soldering alloy aren't as reactive as zinc is and therefore they don't show signs of corrosion so quickly as zinc does, although as I observed in the failed PSUs I have they eventually do too. As does copper from any exposed traces and can the solder mask or the epoxy substrate of the PCB itself too. > > Unfortunately replacing the parts is not easy as heatsinks block access > to the > > soldering pads and you need to desolder main rectifiers first to gain > access. > > You need to clean any electrolyte spills too as they will cause corrosion > and > > shorts. > > Yes, I have had one of these PSUs apart before and know how horrible it is > to get at these parts. I will however go ahead and replace these caps. Indeed, and good luck! NB the two brown capacitors seen in the middle top of your photo are among ones that leaked in my PSU; an SXF marking is barely recognisable on the edge of the lower one in your photo. After considerable effort earlier this year I succeeded with removing the intermediate heatsink blocking access to these caps, by desoldering the four rectifier dual-diodes holding the heatsink in place -- at the cost of losing a leg from one of the smaller ones (a Motorola MBR3045PT) and some damage to the PCB. Fortunately MBR3045PT parts are still available and I was able to get a replacement, and the damage to the PCB is I believe not critical. What's important the larger rectifier dual-diodes (84CNQ045; no clear indication of the manufacturer) have survived intact, as these seem to have become unobtainium now. Apparently the last die foundry capable of making these parts has discontinued them earlier this year due to lack of customer interest, so the only source remaining might be part recovery from otherwise broken equipment. Overall I think I'll need better tools to be able to desolder such stuff in a more repeatable and less destructive way. The thick legs of the 84CNQ045 parts combined with the large volume and consequently thermal capacity of the intermediate heatsink seem to be able to take heat away virtually instantaneously. I'll appreciate your advice on choosing a good soldering/desoldering station, capable of handling such high-current (and consequently highly heat-conducting) parts. For the curious and possibly to provide some information on the parts involved I've documented progress with the disassembly of this module at: (large photos!). Removing the offending caps revealed C322 and C323 designation underneath; these are 330?F/25V parts. I decided not to move forward with installing replacements and reassembling the module, or proceeding with disassembling the other module without upgrading my soldering/desoldering tools first though. > > I observed similar symptoms with the failed PSU as you do: it started up > > briefly, enough for diagnostic output to start coming from the system > > through the console port, and then within a couple of seconds the PSU shut > > down. > > I don't have an easy way to apply test loads to all the outputs at the same > time. Is it possible to remove the final output boards for each "half" of > the output and test one at a time without causing the PSU to shut down? No idea. I've only recently started finding my way with this system; I'm mostly a software person. Admittedly quite a low-level one, but still on the software side. And it's been only earlier this year I discovered the issue with the dreaded SXF caps, even though I've been using various DEC hardware/PSUs for over 15 years now. Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Dec 17 10:17:37 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Dec 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > No leaking ChemiCon SXF-series capacitors inside? They seem to suffer > > from some kind of design or manufacturing defect and consequently the > > electrolyte gets through the seal eventually even in parts never used. A > > number of DEC PSUs have these capacitors, including the H7874 PSU which > > BA430/BA440 VAX 4000 cabinets use. > > > Just opened it up and there are indeed leaking caps, the brown ones. There > is also a strange deposit on a couple of screws (picture here: > http://1drv.ms/1micVN7), but the screws are nowhere near the leaking > capacitors. Any thoughts on that? Obviously zinc plating of the screw has come in reaction with something. It doesn't seem from the photo electrolyte could have reached there, however I'd double check that, in particular inspect the surface of the PCB throughout looking for any difference in appearance. This stuff can reach far, e.g. in one of my failed H7821 PSUs which was unfortunately stored at an angle to its proper operational position (or otherwise the upside down position of problematic capacitors have prevented the seal from failing), electrolyte travelled at least 15cm/6" away from the failed capacitor. And this screw is located in a bottom corner of the PSU when in its operational position so gravity will drive leaked electrolyte towards it even if capillary action does not. Other than that I have no idea. Lead or tin from the soldering alloy aren't as reactive as zinc is and therefore they don't show signs of corrosion so quickly as zinc does, although as I observed in the failed PSUs I have they eventually do too. As does copper from any exposed traces and can the solder mask or the epoxy substrate of the PCB itself too. > > Unfortunately replacing the parts is not easy as heatsinks block access > to the > > soldering pads and you need to desolder main rectifiers first to gain > access. > > You need to clean any electrolyte spills too as they will cause corrosion > and > > shorts. > > Yes, I have had one of these PSUs apart before and know how horrible it is > to get at these parts. I will however go ahead and replace these caps. Indeed, and good luck! NB the two brown capacitors seen in the middle top of your photo are among ones that leaked in my PSU; an SXF marking is barely recognisable on the edge of the lower one in your photo. After considerable effort earlier this year I succeeded with removing the intermediate heatsink blocking access to these caps, by desoldering the four rectifier dual-diodes holding the heatsink in place -- at the cost of losing a leg from one of the smaller ones (a Motorola MBR3045PT) and some damage to the PCB. Fortunately MBR3045PT parts are still available and I was able to get a replacement, and the damage to the PCB is I believe not critical. What's important the larger rectifier dual-diodes (84CNQ045; no clear indication of the manufacturer) have survived intact, as these seem to have become unobtainium now. Apparently the last die foundry capable of making these parts has discontinued them earlier this year due to lack of customer interest, so the only source remaining might be part recovery from otherwise broken equipment. Overall I think I'll need better tools to be able to desolder such stuff in a more repeatable and less destructive way. The thick legs of the 84CNQ045 parts combined with the large volume and consequently thermal capacity of the intermediate heatsink seem to be able to take heat away virtually instantaneously. I'll appreciate your advice on choosing a good soldering/desoldering station, capable of handling such high-current (and consequently highly heat-conducting) parts. For the curious and possibly to provide some information on the parts involved I've documented progress with the disassembly of this module at: (large photos!). Removing the offending caps revealed C322 and C323 designation underneath; these are 330?F/25V parts. I decided not to move forward with installing replacements and reassembling the module, or proceeding with disassembling the other module without upgrading my soldering/desoldering tools first though. > > I observed similar symptoms with the failed PSU as you do: it started up > > briefly, enough for diagnostic output to start coming from the system > > through the console port, and then within a couple of seconds the PSU shut > > down. > > I don't have an easy way to apply test loads to all the outputs at the same > time. Is it possible to remove the final output boards for each "half" of > the output and test one at a time without causing the PSU to shut down? No idea. I've only recently started finding my way with this system; I'm mostly a software person. Admittedly quite a low-level one, but still on the software side. And it's been only earlier this year I discovered the issue with the dreaded SXF caps, even though I've been using various DEC hardware/PSUs for over 15 years now. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 17 10:53:11 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:53:11 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> The biggest one, which started me down the path of software preservation, was giving away all the DECtapes that were on UW-Milwaukee's TSS/8 system to Gary Coleman in Cleveland. I managed to find a box or two that other people on the system kept, which is where what I have of the TSS/8 sources came from. Gary told me he gave them to Jeff Russ at Indiana University, but even after going down there to talk to him I got nowhere finding out if he had (has?) them. I don't even know if Jeff is still alive, or what happened to the big stash of 18-bit DEC computers he had. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 17 10:53:29 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:53:29 +0100 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20151217165329.GD26875@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > > I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a listmember who would have > taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box. > I'd be divided if I'd get that offer. > I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there. > > If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to > knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from > styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar > working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in > different thicknesses already. > > So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll > add this project to the pile :) :-) /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 17 10:55:18 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:55:18 +0100 Subject: Diablo 3000 schematics wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151217165517.GE26875@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 06:07:24PM +0000, tony duell wrote: > > I have one that was mangled in the house-move (the movers decided to cut the keyboard > cable for me). Wow, did you get any compensation? /P From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 17 11:03:37 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:03:37 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: We were moving, and my Spousal Unit convinced me to toss things I hadn't touched in a while - including my Intercept Jr. with the 32K battery-backed RAM card, and an old-style acoustic coupler modem. Now that I'm considering a major move again (after my daughter goes off to college, in a couple of years) she's started making those noises again. We'll see what gets left behind this time.... On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > The biggest one, which started me down the path of software preservation, > was giving away all the DECtapes that were on UW-Milwaukee's TSS/8 system > to Gary Coleman in Cleveland. I managed to find a box or two that other > people on the system kept, which is where what I have of the TSS/8 sources > came from. Gary told me he gave them to Jeff Russ at Indiana University, > but even after going down there to talk to him I got nowhere finding out > if he had (has?) them. I don't even know if Jeff is still alive, or what > happened to the big stash of 18-bit DEC computers he had. > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Dec 17 11:07:13 2015 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:07:13 +0100 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20151217170713.GF26875@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:17:20AM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Although I suspect a lot of people here have stories like that... > Most of the stories here top mine but I keep kicking myself for leaving a DEC prioris behind. It's a relatively bulky x86 but it uses the same PSU as a broken AlphaServer 1000 4/233 I have. I suspected it was the case but I thought the prioris was to big for a PSU that might fit the alpha. Anyone wants an AS 1000 4/233 with bad PSU? /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 11:03:46 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:03:46 +0000 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: > > We were moving, and my Spousal Unit convinced me to toss things I hadn't > touched in a while - including my Intercept Jr. with the 32K battery-backed > RAM card, and an old-style acoustic coupler modem. Now that I'm > considering a major move again (after my daughter goes off to college, in a > couple of years) she's started making those noises again. We'll see what > gets left behind this time.... If you have any sense, your 'Spousal Unit'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 17 11:02:31 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:02:31 +0000 Subject: Diablo 3000 schematics wanted In-Reply-To: <20151217165517.GE26875@Update.UU.SE> References: , <20151217165517.GE26875@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > > > I have one that was mangled in the house-move (the movers decided to cut the keyboard > > cable for me). > > Wow, did you get any compensation? You are joking, right? Their 'terms and conditions' mean you had to claim within 7 days of the move. I don;t know anybody who could inspect everything they own within 7 days. Other damage included a hard disk unit being dropped so that the metal casing was totally out of true (amazingly the winchester drives survived) A Pro 350 being dropped sufficiently hard that the chassis was bent so getting the processor board out was non-trivial (that machine has been restored, although it really needs a new top cover). The Dablo 3000 keyboard cable I have already mentioned, also the mains lead from one of my PDP11/10s was ripped out (no good reason for doing this, it was coiled up on top of the processor box), I haven't fixed that yet Just about every keyboard I own lost keycaps. Still looking for ones for a couple of HP86Bs and a Newbrain And a number of things, some of sentimental value (like a Nikon lens [1] tbat was the last thing my father and I ever talked about), others of financial value, and some of almost no value at all (the set of screws and internal bracketry I need to put my R80 together) 'disappeared. [1] I have managed to buy another one of these, but it's not the same, of course. They were clueless about this, they took a relatively common and not-too-valuable lens because, I guess, it looked impressive (300mm f/4.5) while leaving the much nicer PC-Nikkor. I estimate the total loss (including repairs) is well into 5 figures. I could have taken them to court, but as a friend said 'There's one of you, six of them and they will lie through their teeth'. So I just have to put thing right as best I can. To tie in another thread, my big regret is not renting back the house I sold (the seller would have let me do this) for a month and giving 3 of my friends \pounds 10000 each to do the move for me. It would have cost a bit more but I would not be now looking for a keycap for a Newbrain or the gas strut brackets for an R80. -tony /P From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 17 11:17:35 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:17:35 +0000 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <20151217165329.GD26875@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <20151217165329.GD26875@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <5672EE2F.3000805@btinternet.com> On 17/12/2015 16:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >> I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a listmember who would have >> taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box. >> > I'd be divided if I'd get that offer. > >> I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there. >> >> If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to >> knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from >> styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar >> working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in >> different thicknesses already. >> >> So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll >> add this project to the pile :) > :-) > > /P Thats interesting. I had always wondered about what bezels are made of. The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium. It must be diecast something or other. I also thought of maybe making a silicone mould and use casting resin. Rod Smallwood From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 11:19:20 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:19:20 +0000 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151217170713.GF26875@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151216151720.0935818C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20151217170713.GF26875@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 17 December 2015 at 17:07, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Most of the stories here top mine but I keep kicking myself for > leaving a DEC prioris behind. It's a relatively bulky x86 but it > uses the same PSU as a broken AlphaServer 1000 4/233 I have. I > suspected it was the case but I thought the prioris was to big > for a PSU that might fit the alpha. > > Anyone wants an AS 1000 4/233 with bad PSU? > I really hope the AS1000 PSU is different to the Alpha 1200 because we scrapped 2 of those yesterday along with 12 fully loaded Alpha4100s. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 09:53:50 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:53:50 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I regret that when I obtained my Straight 8 system in the early 80's I > chose not to take the ASR-35. In retrospect this was a huge mistake. My > thinking at the time was in addition to not having room for it it was noisy > and would be difficult to maintain. I used my Processor Tech Sol 20 as the > terminal because it has a current loop interface and could operate at 110 > baud. > > A glass terminal is not the same experience as a teletype. > > > -- > Doug Ingraham > PDP-8 SN 1175 > -- I did a Google search on a straight eight system and found this . . http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe12/exhibit_small.jpg If this is the correct image I see a small round screen and if memory serves me a line like a heart beat monitor. Fi I am correct how in the world would you read this. *Honda ATC 3wheeler's for LIFE!!! Have a blessed day!* From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 11:28:38 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 12:28:38 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > The biggest one, which started me down the path of software preservation, > was giving away all the DECtapes that were on UW-Milwaukee's TSS/8 system > to Gary Coleman in Cleveland. > What you talkin' bout Willis? I thought they filmed Different Strokes in LA. -- Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 17 11:41:32 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:41:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: A suitable project for Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Dec 2015, Mike Boyle wrote: > I would love to have a micro and all of the 70 and 80- 87 Honda Motorcycle > parts! The old ATC's Gotta Love em! Then you should start designing a database to keep track of the parts, and the ones that you have. You will need several boxes of punched cards, a sorter (084?), and a 407. Or, a TRS80 with two floppies is adequate (barely) to handle a reasonable inventory, if you want a screen. (I did that in 1979) In your time frame, all parts should have the "new" Honda part numbers, which were introduced in about 1966? although some parts would still be labelled with the old part code numbering system, which was a 5 or 6 digit number. The "new" part number system (still in use!) has multiple parts. The first field is normally 5 digits, although sometimes also suffix letter(s). Of those 5 digits, the first two are the "function number", followed by three digits of "component number". That pretty much tells you what the part is, although not enough to get the right one for your vehicle. The second field, separated by hyphens is the "product code" or "parts classification number", and is a three digit alphanumeric code for what model first used that part (NOT necessarily the model of your vehicle). For example, "001" was a C100 motorcycle, "500" was an S500 car (not imported into USA, although there are dozens of S600s in USA), "551" and "568" were AN600, "634" was a Civic, etc. The third field, usually 3 digits, but often exteded with suffixes, is 2 digits for modification number, and a digit for subcontractor. But "standard" parts, such as nuts and bolts, will sometimes use an alternate numbering system. The first field is two digits for function and 3 digits for type. The second field is dimensions. The optional third field is sometimes used for ISO designations. FINDING the right part requires extensive knowledge, including historical of which models previously used that part, and/or massive cross-referencing, such as using the Honda parts books to find the part in an exploded view and then treat the provided number as arbitrary. Parts books can be found. Dealer price lists are harder to come by. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com (Honda cars 1965 - 1980) From db at db.net Thu Dec 17 11:58:55 2015 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 12:58:55 -0500 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <5671F815.9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <89151681A80A4BB4A7A725F0CDC28ADB@310e2> <5671F815.9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20151217175855.GA68910@night.db.net> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 04:47:33PM -0700, ben wrote: > On 12/16/2015 1:29 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > > > So you can definitely do lots of useful stuff without a screen, Old thread, but I remember writing a tic-tac-toe program for the 1401 using the sense switches and lights. Does that count as a display less computer? -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 17 12:30:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:30:44 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <20151217175855.GA68910@night.db.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20151213001102.GC90636@gmail.com> <566EF996.2070004@tx.rr.com> <89151681A80A4BB4A7A725F0CDC28ADB@310e2> <5671F815.9@jetnet.ab.ca> <20151217175855.GA68910@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5672FF54.2070103@sydex.com> On 12/17/2015 09:58 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > Old thread, but I remember writing a tic-tac-toe program for the > 1401 using the sense switches and lights. Does that count as a > display less computer? Certainly, it counts as not having a "screen", which is the topic. And then, I wonder if the intended topic really is "screen graphic capability". After all, a "glass tty" isn't all that much different from a paper tty. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 12:31:56 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:31:56 -0500 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <5672EE2F.3000805@btinternet.com> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <20151217165329.GD26875@Update.UU.SE> <5672EE2F.3000805@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I had always wondered about what bezels are made of. > The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium. > It must be diecast something or other. Zamac? -ethan From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 12:40:48 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:40:48 -0500 Subject: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) In-Reply-To: <006201d1382b$4306e6d0$c914b470$@gmail.com> References: <006201d1382b$4306e6d0$c914b470$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <016901d138fa$72fb8240$58f286c0$@gmail.com> I find that Parts 1 and 2 appear as Chapters 43 & 44 in "Computer Structures: Readings and Examples" (Bell & Newell; 1971), but that seems to be it for public availability. For those chapters, see: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20S tructures%20Readings%20and%20Examples%201971.pdf Otherwise prepare to be confronted by an IEEE pay-wall :-<. About $30 a part . From: Paul Birkel [mailto:pbirkel at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 12:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) This was the five-part seminal description of the S/360, published in the IBM Systems Journal, Volume 3, Number 2. I've very much like to read all five parts. Does anyone have a copy that might be shared? Thank you, paul From leec2124 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 12:44:34 2015 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:44:34 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: About 10-15 years ago a pristine multi-rack fully stuffed HP1000 F-Series with disc, 1/2 tape, and rack of analog I/O (maybe 2250?) at AuctionBDI. I didn't have room. Checked the following week and no-one had bid on it and it was gone, probably scrapped. Minimum bid was $25. :-( Even worse was the year I graduated from college (1979) my University had two 1620s in storage, a Model I and II with software, spare packs (for the Mod-II) they couldn't give away. So young and foolish, with no fore-sight, was I. :-(**3 Lee C. On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 9:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > The biggest one, which started me down the path of software preservation, > > was giving away all the DECtapes that were on UW-Milwaukee's TSS/8 system > > to Gary Coleman in Cleveland. > > > > What you talkin' bout Willis? > > I thought they filmed Different Strokes in LA. > > -- > Bill > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 17 13:07:47 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:07:47 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56730803.6000007@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/15 10:44 AM, Lee Courtney wrote: > About 10-15 years ago a pristine multi-rack fully stuffed HP1000 F-Series > with disc, 1/2 tape, and rack of analog I/O (maybe 2250?) at AuctionBDI. I have it in storage in San Carlos. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 13:16:18 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 19:16:18 -0000 Subject: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) In-Reply-To: <016901d138fa$72fb8240$58f286c0$@gmail.com> References: <006201d1382b$4306e6d0$c914b470$@gmail.com> <016901d138fa$72fb8240$58f286c0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <052b01d138ff$68899cc0$399cd640$@gmail.com> If no one else manages to get these please e-mail me off list. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Birkel > Sent: 17 December 2015 18:41 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) > > I find that Parts 1 and 2 appear as Chapters 43 & 44 in "Computer > Structures: Readings and Examples" (Bell & Newell; 1971), but that seems to > be it for public availability. For those chapters, see: > http://research.microsoft.com/en- > us/um/people/gbell/CGB%20Files/Computer%20S > tructures%20Readings%20and%20Examples%201971.pdf > > > > Otherwise prepare to be confronted by an IEEE pay-wall :-<. About $30 a > part . > > > > From: Paul Birkel [mailto:pbirkel at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 12:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: The Structure of SYSTEM/360 (Blaauw & Brooks, et al.) > > > > This was the five-part seminal description of the S/360, published in the IBM > Systems Journal, Volume 3, Number 2. > > > > I've very much like to read all five parts. Does anyone have a copy that might > be shared? > > > > Thank you, > > > > paul From mark at markesystems.com Thu Dec 17 13:32:32 2015 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:32:32 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "js at cimmeri.com" Subject: Re: Decisions you regret > mark at markesystems.com wrote: >> >> Yep. Among the things that I have >> given away (to Goodwill, or possibly >> Salvation Army) - all in running >> condition: > .... > > I'm going to go shoot myself now. > ~~ > > I'm curious, why were these given to > a Goodwill / Salvation Army of all > places? These places don't have the > first clue of what to do with items like > these.. and they tend to be overwhelmed > with stuff anyway. Not everything goes > out for sale. My reasons at the time: - All equipment was pretty much at its minimum value-wise - It could still be priced relatively highly for tax deduction reasons - I was very space constrained, and not using it at the time - I'd just gotten married (see "Spousal unit", in a later post) None of them good enough in hindsight for the value that equipment would have now, either to me or others. Damn - too bad I pawned that old Colt Paterson - I bet it would be worth something by now... ~~ Mark Moulding From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 12:10:52 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:10:52 -0500 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I have a complete, unpopulated 11/03 chassis if you'd be interested in trading for some number of unibus and q-bus modules on my wish list - looking for scsi interfaces, ethernet, working -15v h745 bricks and a Micro PDP11 power supply. Have any stuff like this? thx jake On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > It's a longshot. But recently I aquired two BA11-N. One is just the cage > and power supply. Looks just like this: > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/_/rsrc/1300059803599/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-11-03/DEC_PDP-11_03-inside.jpg > > The other came with mounting box but no front panel. I would like to > make it complete with the white front bezel seen here: > > http://hampage.hu/pdp11/kepek/11-03.jpg > > Does anyone have one for sale? > > The greyish plastic arround the front panel would be a bonus since mine > got a small crack in it. > > Regards, > Pontus. > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 15:40:30 2015 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:40:30 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I Volunteer constantly at the salvation army looking for such things to show up. The local salvation army office is a mess. Anything remotely heavy looking is scrapped if they do not know what it is. They would rather have $5 in hand for scrap rather than try to find out what something is, what it is worth, and trying to find someone that will buy it, and then they wonder why they cant pay the bills at the end of the month. Goodwill is a bit different, everything gets collected and sent to a main sorting facility (ive never been in there), i imagine it is a similar story though, a big scrap pile full of all the old machines i could ever want, on their way to be scrapped because they do not want to bother selling them. I have tried to get into the goodwill sorting place a couple of times. They are not too friendly.They want thier scrap money, and they do not want people looking around. Alot of interesting stuff gets sent in to salvation and gets scrapped. It is apparent they do not plan to hire me, i try to make it known that I am the guy that buys all the old computer stuff, so at least they give me a call if something really interesting gets sent in. Ive gotten some pretty neat old ibm stuff, disk packs, big floppys, etc but nothing anywhere close to a hp 1000. --Devin On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 2:32 PM, wrote: > From: "js at cimmeri.com" > Subject: Re: Decisions you regret > > mark at markesystems.com wrote: >> >>> >>> Yep. Among the things that I have >>> given away (to Goodwill, or possibly >>> Salvation Army) - all in running >>> condition: >>> >> .... >> >> I'm going to go shoot myself now. >> ~~ >> >> I'm curious, why were these given to >> a Goodwill / Salvation Army of all >> places? These places don't have the >> first clue of what to do with items like >> these.. and they tend to be overwhelmed >> with stuff anyway. Not everything goes >> out for sale. >> > > My reasons at the time: > - All equipment was pretty much at its minimum value-wise > - It could still be priced relatively highly for tax deduction reasons > - I was very space constrained, and not using it at the time > - I'd just gotten married (see "Spousal unit", in a later post) > > None of them good enough in hindsight for the value that equipment would > have now, either to me or others. > > Damn - too bad I pawned that old Colt Paterson - I bet it would be worth > something by now... > ~~ > Mark Moulding > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Dec 17 16:40:12 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 11:40:12 +1300 Subject: Another apple II+ repair Message-ID: For anyone interested, here's another repair writeup. I didn't keep as good a notes as I should have on this one and the memory (my memory!) is of little help. If I'm going write these things up I really should do it straight afterwards! Anyway, the board lives now. It's something I could never have diagnosed just from chip swapping. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-05-repairing-an-appleII+-board.htm I did learn that it's possible for the machine to boot to BASIC even with faulty RAM in the first row, something that I didn't think was possible. Depends on the nature of the fault I guess. Terry (Tez) From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 17 16:47:20 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 16:47:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:59 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> This board does not look that complicated and all the ICs have known >> numbers on them (mostly TTL logic). If it were mine I'd trace out the >> schematic. > > That's true and possible. I'm in two minds on this thing: > > - intention was to rip all this out and convert it to a full I/O serial > terminal, using an Arduino-based setup that Lawrence Wilkinson has > already built and tested: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/ljw/sets/72157632841492802/with/9201494189/ > - all the keyboard contacts are already in there, Western I/O just cut > the IBM wires off when they ripped the IBM guts out and converted it > printer-only. I'd like to figure out the interface that's presently in > it, just to check out the mechanism, and for that 'ah ha!' moment :) > - but I don't want to spend any significant time on it if I'm just going > to rip it all out. > > - but, although the Western I/O conversion 'butchered' a perfectly good > IBM 2970, it IS a rare representative of that era, when all kinds of > Selectric conversions were commonplace. So perhaps, as a nod to that > era, it should be left as-is, as a preserved example? What say people? > I've seen posts on old lists where people have referred to buying these > back in the day - converted Selectrics I mean - and seeing 'mountains' > of them in warehouses. They were once common. Where have they all gone? > Is mine the *only* survivor from those mountains of 3rd-party backstreet > conversions? Does anyone else have any? I have one of these print-only IBM Selectrics that I got along with a TRS-80 model 1 which may very well be one of these modified IBM 2970 Reservation Terminals. It was interfaced to the TRS-80 via a "Micromatic 80" interface connected to the computer's parallel port. From what I remember, it has both a serial and parallel input and has a third connector which the Selectric connects to using a card-edge type connector. The Micromatic 80 itself seems to mainly be made of 7400 series logic chips but may also have a few proms. If there is sufficient interest, I could strip the parts from the interface board and scan the bare board (double sided). It is already in my to-do project queue anyway as I was planning to replace the 3 edge wipe IC sockets (most of the ICs are soldered directly to the board) and the original aluminum electrolytic capacitors. From pete at pski.net Thu Dec 17 16:48:34 2015 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 17:48:34 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 17, 2015, at 4:40 PM, devin davison wrote: > > I Volunteer constantly at the salvation army looking for such things to > show up. I love your dedication to the hobby. Working at the Salvation Army just to get an "in" on the vintage computers. Brilliant! From steven at malikoff.com Thu Dec 17 20:44:54 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:44:54 +1000 Subject: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel In-Reply-To: <5672EE2F.3000805@btinternet.com> References: <20151215204858.GB32052@Update.UU.SE> <99fabeede0181648b5ba0cab4af6cc44.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <20151217165329.GD26875@Update.UU.SE> <5672EE2F.3000805@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <46012232ed40532da069c8db518cc6d0.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel From: "Rod Smallwood" Date: Fri, December 18, 2015 3:17 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > On 17/12/2015 16:53, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 09:30:23AM +1000, steven at malikoff.com wrote: >>> I've been after one for a while, too. I was very kindly offered one from a listmember who would have >>> taken it off his own machine, but I felt that would have deprived that box. >>> >> I'd be divided if I'd get that offer. >> >>> I've tried DEC resellers but no luck there. >>> >>> If I can get accurate measurements I think i should be able to >>> knock up a CAD drawing and construct a passable replica from >>> styrene sheet, a material with which I am very familiar >>> working with. I have a number of large sheets of it in >>> different thicknesses already. >>> >>> So if anyone can take some photos and measurements for me I'll >>> add this project to the pile :) >> :-) >> >> /P > Thats interesting. > I had always wondered about what bezels are made of. > The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium. > It must be diecast something or other. > > I also thought of maybe making a silicone mould and use casting resin. > > Rod Smallwood I've only seen the 11/05 bezel close up - and assuming others are the same - looks to me a heavier sturdier alloy than Mazak (Zamak in the USA), but I guess it could be. The bezel could be cast in resin, but resin can shrink and distort a bit. Fibreglass with a white gelcoat layer could be laid up in a silicone mould too, if care was taken not to bend the silcone after the laying up the gelcoat. Reminds me of the time I helped build fourteen kayaks at our house for a scout troop many years ago, I will never forget the smell of polyester resin and the millions of chopped strand glass fibres getting everywhere! A vacform (probably styrene) as proposed for the PiDP-11 would also be a good consideration. I think any of these would look pretty good after spraypainting. Steve. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 21:13:20 2015 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 19:13:20 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <56730803.6000007@bitsavers.org> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5672E877.9000504@bitsavers.org> <56730803.6000007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have two big regrets (lots of little ones). the first was a Litton 1251 I got in the early 1980s for $25 from the State of Oregon. 5 2X3' components, control, printer, tape reader/ punch and two 200K drum memory units. Played with for a while and scrapped it when aluminum was bringing 80 cents per pound in the late 1980s. Did inventory for the state but all I could get it to do was printout ASCII art. Replaced it with a Xerox 820. The second big regret was scrapping an Alto in the early 90s. I just didn't recognize it and let it go to scrap. It was part of a large lot we got from Intel in 91 0r 92 that included lots of development systems, II, III, IV. In that lot were an Alto and a Tektronix Magnolia which I didn't recognize till years later. Without skins they were difficult to identify and the Alto terminal was so strange. I was more interested in the 8 Xerox 8010 Dandelions in the lot......and the intel development systems. When I finally saw a picture of an Alto I realized we had the complete system. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 11:53:32 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 12:53:32 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley In-Reply-To: <98d879994ea7dfd4b749a35cbfb109f8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <1D9E11AAD0824A1F85DB18A5773AA273@Daedalus> <98d879994ea7dfd4b749a35cbfb109f8.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 7:41 PM, wrote: > My Dad used to bring home bits of dead System/360 from work, my brother > and I > would of course pull this stuff to bits 'just to see what was inside'. > Printer trains, SLT cards, a pile of SMS cards from his earlier workings > with > IBM 650s, all sorts of bits of electronic and electromechanical items. Dad > turned a punched-card sorter chassis into a workshop bench, I recall it was > dark charcoal grey and had a pull-out bucket on the front, not sure if > that was > for cards or chads. > > One thing we had fun with was one of those 2260 delay line units recently > discussed here. Inside the box was a beautifully coiled length of > Nichrome(?) > wire, zooiiinnggg that was out, played with by stretching and tapping on > the wire, > and most likely thrown out. > > I had a complete General Automation SPC-16 minicomputer in a 6' rack, > ASR33, > two Documation card readers, disk packs with DBOS I think. This took up > quite a > bit of room in my flat so I sold it off very very cheaply, practically > gave it > away. Wish I had it now, of course. Along with my S-100 system, that went > to the > same buyer, a uni student I recall. > > Dad brought home a disposed-of 2741 I/O Selectric we were going to > interface to our > F-8. Never got done so it sat in the cupboard for decades. It disappeared > when my > folks moved interstate. > Recently I found the platen from it in their garden shed. It still has the > terminal- > style knobs on the ends, like on the 1052 terminal but grey instead of > blue. I'll > save that for the time I get around to looking at some form of Selectric > I/O, or > at least as a keepsake of the stuff we had :) > > Steve. > > -- The word decision I have ever regret is back in 1993 I was living in Oregon working in the lumber Industry but all the " TREE HUGGER's" Were shutting down most of the lumber Co. So I got a job offer in OKC from a friend who said " YOU HAVE TO GET INTO THE OIL INDUSTRY!!! and I left behind my Mint Apple IIc with the original mini screen! That piece of machinery IMO was on of the best Apple products of all time! I remember on payday after I went and payed all my bills on "BILL DAY" as I called it I used to go to the thrift store that was overflowing with old computer stuff I have seen many of the older computer's that were mentioned here in the newsgroup unfortunately at the time I had no clue what I was even looking at in fact back then I just thought they were " PART OF A BROKEN TV OR SOME OTHER PIECE OF ELECTRONIC TRASH lol Oh BOY I was so very wrong! So very wrong! If I could have known then what I have learned from the great group of people here in *cctalk at classiccmp.org * I would be sitting on a gold mine! But it's just like my Adopted father said the reason I said adopted is that my parents were late into there 50's when they adopted me so anyway He told me one time he had an old model T ford he said it broke down on him on a very bad day so he just pushed it off the side of the road and walked off and just left it, Just think how much it would be worth now fully restored. It's funny how we do that as younger people. Shoot even some of my childhood toys like I have a Bobs Big-Boy piggy bank thats worth quite a bit to BB-B collectors. *Honda ATC 3wheeler's for LIFE!!! Have a blessed day!* From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 17:11:36 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:11:36 -0500 Subject: Another apple II+ repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 17, 2015 4:40 PM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > > For anyone interested, here's another repair writeup. I didn't keep as good > a notes as I should have on this one and the memory (my memory!) is of > little help. If I'm going write these things up I really should do it > straight afterwards! Anyway, the board lives now. It's something I could > never have diagnosed just from chip swapping. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-05-repairing-an-appleII+-board.htm > > I did learn that it's possible for the machine to boot to BASIC even with > faulty RAM in the first row, something that I didn't think was possible. > Depends on the nature of the fault I guess. > > Terry (Tez) Thanks Terry so much for the helpful blog link! From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Dec 17 21:37:20 2015 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 22:37:20 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: <90F20EAB16FF45AB9D6F5CA8AA1A0CD0@OptiplexGX620> References: <90F20EAB16FF45AB9D6F5CA8AA1A0CD0@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: I never saw this post, but did end up with a 30MB. I will take another if available though. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Still looking? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; ; " > Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" < > members at hacdc.org> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM > Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED > > > > Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system I >> had running. >> >> HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. >> >> I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) >> >> I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll >> just >> have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA SCSI >> card .... >> >> -- >> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >> KB3HAG >> > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 18 00:30:00 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 01:30:00 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED Message-ID: <606ea4.320a4565.43a501e8@aol.com> did all mod 70s have SCSI drives? Ed# In a message dated 12/17/2015 10:54:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, mokuba at gmail.com writes: I never saw this post, but did end up with a 30MB. I will take another if available though. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Still looking? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; ; " > Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" < > members at hacdc.org> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM > Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED > > > > Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system I >> had running. >> >> HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. >> >> I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) >> >> I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll >> just >> have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA SCSI >> card .... >> >> -- >> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >> KB3HAG >> > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 18 00:30:00 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 01:30:00 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED Message-ID: <606ea4.320a4565.43a501e8@aol.com> did all mod 70s have SCSI drives? Ed# In a message dated 12/17/2015 10:54:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, mokuba at gmail.com writes: I never saw this post, but did end up with a 30MB. I will take another if available though. On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Still looking? > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>; ; " > Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" < > members at hacdc.org> > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM > Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED > > > > Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system I >> had running. >> >> HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. >> >> I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) >> >> I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll >> just >> have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA SCSI >> card .... >> >> -- >> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >> KB3HAG >> > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 18 01:08:18 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 23:08:18 -0800 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: <606ea4.320a4565.43a501e8@aol.com> References: <606ea4.320a4565.43a501e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <5673B0E2.6000306@shiresoft.com> No they weren't SCSI. Those were only through either a "spock" or "tribble" MCA card. Those were the code names. I have *no* idea what the "real" IBM designation was. ;-) The desktop PS/2 machines (50, 50Z, 70, etc) were all designed with robotic assembly in mind (that's why there are no screws or cables in those machines). To accomplish that the HDD was a non-standard connector. TTFN - Guy On 12/17/15 10:30 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > did all mod 70s have SCSI drives? > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/17/2015 10:54:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > mokuba at gmail.com writes: > > I never saw this post, but did end up with a 30MB. I will take another if > available though. > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Daniel Snyder > wrote: > >> Still looking? >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org>; ; " >> Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" < >> members at hacdc.org> >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM >> Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED >> >> >> >> Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system > I >>> had running. >>> >>> HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. >>> >>> I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) >>> >>> I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll >>> just >>> have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA > SCSI >>> card .... >>> >>> -- >>> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >>> KB3HAG >>> >> > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 18 01:44:17 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 02:44:17 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED Message-ID: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> OK Yea they were odd inside we have tower here.. think it is a 70 and a 17" or 19 inch MONSTER ibm monitor ( alas B/W). Years and Years ago someone dumped a bunch at a thrift shop.. lots of them! neat here I wish I had kept more of them... I kept the tower and let the desk tops go you see seldom any of these around here. We also kept a LAPTOP IBM with dual floppies and a odd plasma screen all in one IBM computer... and we have an IBM that is like the Compaq Portable and of course a first PC ( where do I get Charlie Chapman look-a-like to have next to it!?) Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/18/2015 12:08:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, ggs at shiresoft.com writes: No they weren't SCSI. Those were only through either a "spock" or "tribble" MCA card. Those were the code names. I have *no* idea what the "real" IBM designation was. ;-) The desktop PS/2 machines (50, 50Z, 70, etc) were all designed with robotic assembly in mind (that's why there are no screws or cables in those machines). To accomplish that the HDD was a non-standard connector. TTFN - Guy On 12/17/15 10:30 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > did all mod 70s have SCSI drives? > > Ed# > > > In a message dated 12/17/2015 10:54:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, > mokuba at gmail.com writes: > > I never saw this post, but did end up with a 30MB. I will take another if > available though. > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 1:27 PM, Daniel Snyder > wrote: > >> Still looking? >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org>; ; " >> Blabber at hacdc.org" ; "HacDC Members Discussion List" < >> members at hacdc.org> >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2015 9:31 PM >> Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED >> >> >> >> Got a hard down situation and need to re-install/recreate the BBS system > I >>> had running. >>> >>> HDD makes swishy noises when shaken, haven't tried stirring yet. >>> >>> I /guess/ a bootable MCA SCSI card would work too... ;) >>> >>> I had the 160MB drive, but anything above 30 would work - i guess i'll >>> just >>> have to use a SCSI Drive for the file storage area once i get an MCA > SCSI >>> card .... >>> >>> -- >>> Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >>> KB3HAG >>> >> > > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 02:13:10 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 03:13:10 -0500 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Hilpert" Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 2:01 AM On 2015-Dec-15, at 6:21 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > I have taken Brent up on that :-) > First crack can be picked up here: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf ----- Reply ----- Awesome, Brent! Mind telling me/us what software you used to draw that schematic? m From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 18 08:40:51 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:40:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: What did computers without screens do? Message-ID: <20151218144051.4C6F018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > It's also occurred to me that without screens, we might be better off > today ... The average web-surfing experience blasts the user with tons > of filigree and useless data, but very little useful information. ... > Web sites that have multi-megabyte splash screens that serve no purpose > other than tell you that you've arrived. Agree completely. The amount of useless 'eye candy' on the average Web page is, well, appalling. But then again, the low S/N on developing technologies, as worthless content expands faster than high quality - well, that's nothing new, look at TV. > (oh boy, am I going to get flack on this one) Not so much! Most seem to agree, actually! :-) > Data is cheap and Parkinson's law applies. "90% of _everything_ is crap!" Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 18 08:44:03 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:44:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) Message-ID: <20151218144403.CD7EB18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Doug Ingraham > I regret that when I obtained my Straight 8 system in the early 80's I > chose not to take the ASR-35. > ... > A glass terminal is not the same experience as a teletype. Thank goodness for that! I had the 'joy' of using exclusively Teletypes for the first two years I worked with computers, and I didn't (and still don't) miss them one bit! Which is not to say I look down on those who collect/restore them, I understand they are an important part of the history, and I salute those who are into them. I'm just saying that, as a user, I was glad to move on! Noel From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 18 09:46:59 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 10:46:59 -0500 Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? Message-ID: <56742A73.5030309@sbcglobal.net> Did the email server fall over again? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jason at smbfc.net Fri Dec 18 09:52:12 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 07:52:12 -0800 Subject: Re-inking printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <566F5EA0.5020209@gmail.com> References: <566DAAC4.8070705@gmail.com> <566F6952.1030306@smbfc.net> <566F5EA0.5020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56742BAC.3010903@smbfc.net> On 12/14/2015 04:28 PM, Mike wrote: > > On 12/14/2015 08:13 PM, Jason Howe wrote: >> On 12/13/2015 10:17 AM, william degnan wrote: >>> I have found that most vintage ribbons can be replaced with new >>> ribbons for >>> new devices. Worst case you may find the right width but you'll have to >>> re-thread to fit the vintage spindle. Just have to match the width. >>> >>> I recently bought new ribbons for Decwriter II and TI Omni 810 >>> without any >>> problem. >>> >>> Bill >>> >> I'm having this issue right now with a Panasonic printer. The black >> ink ribbons are still a dime/dozen. The 4-color ribbons are NLA from >> Panasonic and finding them is proving to get quite difficult. >> >> I'd be more than happy to re-thread a cartridge, but where does one >> find CMYK 1 inch fabric ribbon? >> >> -Jason > > Jason, > > Is it cheaper to do it that way luckily I got 40 new ribbon cartrages > with my C-64 purchase.. Do they have screws or are they hot glued > together? They are, of course, glued together... I actually (finally) found a vendor online selling these new. He said that while Panasonic has discontinued production, a Chinese company has picked it up. I ordered 2 at $25/each (ouch!). We'll see when they get here. Regardless, if I can find a source for 1 inch CMYK ribbon stock I'll have a few carts to mess around with. --Jason From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Fri Dec 18 10:19:21 2015 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:19:21 -0700 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:53 AM, Mike Boyle wrote: > -- > I did a Google search on a straight eight system and found this . . > > http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe12/exhibit_small.jpg > > If this is the correct image I see a small round screen and if memory > serves me a line > like a heart beat monitor. Fi I am correct how in the world would you read > this. > One option on an 8 is a scope interface. It has a 10 bit X DAC, a 10 bit Y DAC and a Z driver, The 8 I have has this option but when they sold the 8 they didn't sell the storage tube scope with it. Around 1975 or 1976 I wrote a line printer driver for the scope for OS/8. The dot matrix was stored in 128 words and supported 64 character ASCII (a 4x6 dot matrix took 2 words per character). So on that little display were 204 characters on a line and 146 lines for the initial implementation. Too hard to read even for 20 year old eyes. I think I made it do half that in each axis so 102x73. Still small but very fast. I used this for debugging programs. After all the ASR 35 teletype was only10 cps. I have not found a copy of this driver in my stuff yet. I am hoping it is not one of those things that was lost forever. And even if I had it I don't have the storage scope so it is not usable. I recently bought a period correct scope for the 8 and one of these days I will get around to fixing it and hooking it up. Not a storage tube but the correct device for playing spacewars. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 09:32:36 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:32:36 +0000 Subject: A suitable project for Display-less computing In-Reply-To: References: <001301d132cc$ac0a5310$041ef930$@classiccmp.org> <0BD2059A36D943AFAFBCFDA1777FA04B@310e2> <56692046.2030801@gmail.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC5CB0B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC65AE3@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5B6C9B624FA545138EBDD95EC84A1A6A@notebook> <637AB65D-E973-42BB-80FF-FA540C84652D@gmail.com> <566C53F9.7010807@pico-systems.com> <566D77F9.10203@gmail.com> <2F7074A2-26FA-4D5A-8AA3-29257E09EA3B@gmail.com> <566FA6FC.8000808@sydex.com> <00f801d1374d$e6573760$b305a620$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 17 Dec 2015, Mike Boyle wrote: > >> I would love to have a micro and all of the 70 and 80- 87 Honda Motorcycle >> parts! The old ATC's Gotta Love em! >> > > Then you should start designing a database to keep track of the parts, and > the ones that you have. > You will need several boxes of punched cards, a sorter (084?), and a 407. > Or, a TRS80 with two floppies is adequate (barely) to handle a reasonable > inventory, if you want a screen. (I did that in 1979) > > In your time frame, all parts should have the "new" Honda part numbers, > which were introduced in about 1966? although some parts would still be > labelled with the old part code numbering system, which was a 5 or 6 digit > number. > > The "new" part number system (still in use!) has multiple parts. > The first field is normally 5 digits, although sometimes also suffix > letter(s). Of those 5 digits, the first two are the "function number", > followed by three digits of "component number". That pretty much tells you > what the part is, although not enough to get the right one for your vehicle. > The second field, separated by hyphens is the "product code" or "parts > classification number", and is a three digit alphanumeric code for what > model first used that part (NOT necessarily the model of your vehicle). For > example, "001" was a C100 motorcycle, "500" was an S500 car (not imported > into USA, although there are dozens of S600s in USA), "551" and "568" were > AN600, "634" was a Civic, etc. > The third field, usually 3 digits, but often exteded with suffixes, is 2 > digits for modification number, and a digit for subcontractor. > > But "standard" parts, such as nuts and bolts, will sometimes use an > alternate numbering system. > The first field is two digits for function and 3 digits for type. > The second field is dimensions. > The optional third field is sometimes used for ISO designations. > > > FINDING the right part requires extensive knowledge, including historical > of which models previously used that part, and/or massive > cross-referencing, such as using the Honda parts books to find the part in > an exploded view and then treat the provided number as arbitrary. > Parts books can be found. Dealer price lists are harder to come by. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > (Honda cars 1965 - 1980) > -- ?Hey Fred, , , ,? ?I was fortunat enough to get a full set of microfish database from 1979 to 1983 I am still scanning them I have been scanning them for about 3 years I also have all the PDF Official Shop manuals not the usermanual But I have them too but the actual books that they used at the Honda Shop. But I would like to get with you on the side about building a database because the one I have now works but it's no where near as good as the one you decribed. and could it be done on a Cpmmodore 64? if so what program is the best spreadsheet for the commodore 64?? *Honda ATC 3wheeler's for LIFE!!!* * Have a blessed day!* From gerardcjat at free.fr Fri Dec 18 10:17:24 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:17:24 +0100 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 References: Message-ID: <410F94CA3AF04958A1FEF76E69C58DF8@medion> @ Brent Hilpert May I ask what software you use for creating your schematics ?? I like the way gates are drawn. Thanks ! --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From oltmansg at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 10:31:43 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 10:31:43 -0600 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <20151218144403.CD7EB18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151218144403.CD7EB18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > 'joy' of using exclusively Teletypes for > the first two years I worked with computers, and I didn't (and still don't) > miss them one bit! > > Which is not to say I look down on those who collect/restore them, I > understand they are an important part of the history, and I salute those > who > are into them. I'm just saying that, as a user, I was glad to move on! > > I'm reminded of the commercial for PRIME computers with the Doctor and Romana: "would you like to be introduced? It's terribly interactive." "you mean immediate response??" "immediate" haha From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 18 10:42:39 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 08:42:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> References: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > kept a LAPTOP IBM with dual floppies and a odd plasma screen all in one > IBM computer... "Convertable" Prior to release, IBM was filming one or more commercials with a Charlie Chaplin look-a-like in a 1957 Chevy ragtop > and we have an IBM that is like the Compaq Portable and of "portable" / 5155 > course a first PC ( where do I get Charlie Chapman look-a-like to have > next to it!?) Otrona! From rickb at bensene.com Fri Dec 18 11:22:41 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 09:22:41 -0800 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EBC@mail.bensene.com> Two things...not really "decisions", but circumstances where had I been more clueful, would have resulted in getting some good stuff -- 1) My father owned a production machine shop. He had an early CNC mill that used a PDP 8/m as the "C" in CNC (Computerized Numerical Control). The machine was eventually replaced with a newer, much more capable mill. The old machine was deemed as not worth trying to sell, as it was old and worn in such a way that its accuracy/repeatability was getting pretty bad, and the cost to fix it up was more than it was worth. So, my Dad called a scrap dealer to come take it away. Had I had any brains, I would have pulled the 8/m system out of the control unit before it went off to the scrapper. Dad had told me I could take anything I wanted out of it, but I was "busy" (I was in my early 20's) with things like girls and cars, and didn't get around to salvaging the 8/m before the machine was hauled off to be scrapped. Stupid. 2) Again, in my later 20's, the company I worked for had a lot of DEC computers, PDP 8s and 11s were everywhere. When a machine was no longer being used, it was generally un-cabled (nicely, not just cutting cables), and wheeled out into the hallway (the place had really wide hallways). Eventually, someone from facilities would take the stuff in the hallway and bring it to the loading dock, where an evaluation would be made if it could be re-deployed somewhere else within the company, or hauled off as scrap. Once day, I noticed a nice four-bay PDP 8/I system, with two RK05's, two dual DECTape drives, what appeared to be a vector display system of some sort (looked DEC made), high-speed paper tape reader/punch, and a 9-track tape drive, and what appeared to be some kind of data acquisition stuff...perhaps A to D converters. The whole thing was in beautiful condition. I kept an eye on it, and a few weeks later, I saw a couple of facility guys wheeling the racks down the hallway to the freight elevator. I asked them what was being done with the system, and they said that it was going to be scrapped. So, later that day, I went down to the loading dock and asked the supervisor there who was in charge of disposition of equipment what was going to happen to it, and he said that they were going to put it out on the loading dock for the scrapper to take away. I asked him if I could get there with a truck and haul it away before the scrappers got there, if that would be acceptable, and he said that would be OK, but I would have to sign a waiver saying that I was entirely responsible for anything, including any injury that I or others may sustain. He said that the scrappers had already been called, and that I'd have to beat them there and get the stuff, as he wanted it gone that day. I signed the waiver, and then went to my boss immediately and said I had an urgent issue to tend to, and that I needed the rest of the day off. He said fine, so I rushed home, and started calling friends that had trucks. I didn't have a truck, so I needed to find someone with a full-size pickup that could haul the stuff. My efforts were stymied by the fact that everyone was at work with their truck. I was in a big hurry, so I ended up going to rent a moving type truck from U-Haul. That took what seemed like forever. Once I had the truck, I rushed back to work, drove up to the loading dock...and....there was nothing there. I went inside, and the supervisor said that the scrappers had been there about 1/2 hour prior to me getting there, and took it all. I lost out on a really nice PDP 8/I system, ended up spending $60 on truck rental and gas, and burned most of a day of vacation time all for naught. It was not a good day. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 11:38:45 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:38:45 -0500 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EBC@mail.bensene.com> References: <000201d1381a$67e597a0$37b0c6e0$@classiccmp.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEC746BC@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EBC@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > > > > He said that the scrappers had already been called, and that I'd have to > beat them there and get the stuff, as he wanted it gone that day. I > signed the waiver, and then went to my boss immediately and said I had an > urgent issue to tend to, and that I needed the rest of the day off. He > said fine, so I rushed home, and started calling friends that had trucks. > I didn't have a truck, so I needed to find someone with a full-size pickup > that could haul the stuff. > > My efforts were stymied by the fact that everyone was at work with their > truck. I was in a big hurry, so I ended up going to rent a moving type > truck from U-Haul. That took what seemed like forever. > > Once I had the truck, I rushed back to work, drove up to the loading > dock...and....there was nothing there. I went inside, and the supervisor > said that the scrappers had been there about 1/2 hour prior to me getting > there, and took it all. > > I lost out on a really nice PDP 8/I system, ended up spending $60 on > truck rental and gas, and burned most of a day of vacation time all for > naught. It was not a good day. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > Yes, but at least you tried. -- Bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 12:04:14 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 10:04:14 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <20151218144051.4C6F018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151218144051.4C6F018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56744A9E.1060602@sydex.com> On 12/18/2015 06:40 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Agree completely. The amount of useless 'eye candy' on the average > Web page is, well, appalling. But then again, the low S/N on > developing technologies, as worthless content expands faster than > high quality - well, that's nothing new, look at TV. Heh. Remember when "public TV" used to be called "educational TV"? Do you remember "Sunrise Semester"? Julius Sumner Miller? --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 12:20:35 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 14:20:35 -0400 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <56744A9E.1060602@sydex.com> References: <20151218144051.4C6F018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56744A9E.1060602@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56744E73.1050906@gmail.com> On 2015-12-18 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/18/2015 06:40 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> Agree completely. The amount of useless 'eye candy' on the average >> Web page is, well, appalling. But then again, the low S/N on >> developing technologies, as worthless content expands faster than >> high quality - well, that's nothing new, look at TV. > > > Heh. Remember when "public TV" used to be called "educational TV"? > Do you remember "Sunrise Semester"? Julius Sumner Miller? > > --Chuck > ...Or the learning channel had something to do with learning and the history channel had something to do with history. I stopped watching TV a few years ago, playing with old computers is much more fun... Paul. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 18 13:44:48 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:44:48 -0600 Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? In-Reply-To: <56742A73.5030309@sbcglobal.net> References: <56742A73.5030309@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000f01d139cc$8e2cb020$aa861060$@classiccmp.org> Uh no? Steady stream of posts..... -----Original Message----- From: Dave Woyciesjes [mailto:woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net] Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:47 AM To: ClassicCMP ; jwest at classiccmp.org Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? Did the email server fall over again? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 14:03:20 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:03:20 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: References: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> Message-ID: <56746688.5090206@gmail.com> On 2015-12-18 12:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 18 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> kept a LAPTOP IBM with dual floppies and a odd plasma screen all in >> one IBM computer... > "Convertable" > Prior to release, IBM was filming one or more commercials with a > Charlie Chaplin look-a-like in a 1957 Chevy ragtop > >> and we have an IBM that is like the Compaq Portable and of > "portable" / 5155 > >> course a first PC ( where do I get Charlie Chapman look-a-like to >> have next to it!?) > > Otrona! > > The screen on the convertable is not plasma, it is a LCD screen and there where two versions one reflective and the other backlit. In the PS/2 days there where suitcase size machines with plasma displays but they only had a single diskette drive that folded out of the front, one model is the 8573-P70. There where 386 and 486 versions of these machines with microchannel card slots and a SCSI disk. Paul. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 18 14:05:11 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:05:11 -0500 Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? In-Reply-To: <000f01d139cc$8e2cb020$aa861060$@classiccmp.org> References: <56742A73.5030309@sbcglobal.net> <000f01d139cc$8e2cb020$aa861060$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <567466F7.7040201@sbcglobal.net> I wonder if I got suspended... I'll have to go have a look-see... On 12/18/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote: > Uh no? Steady stream of posts..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Woyciesjes [mailto:woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net] > Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:47 AM > To: ClassicCMP ; jwest at classiccmp.org > Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? > > Did the email server fall over again? > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 18 14:07:20 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:07:20 -0500 Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? In-Reply-To: <567466F7.7040201@sbcglobal.net> References: <56742A73.5030309@sbcglobal.net> <000f01d139cc$8e2cb020$aa861060$@classiccmp.org> <567466F7.7040201@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56746778.6030405@sbcglobal.net> On 12/18/2015 03:05 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > I wonder if I got suspended... I'll have to go have a look-see... > Ah, yup, there we go. Yahoo bouncing again, and got suspended.... > On 12/18/2015 02:44 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Uh no? Steady stream of posts..... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave Woyciesjes [mailto:woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net] >> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:47 AM >> To: ClassicCMP ; jwest at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Classic CMP list fall over again? >> >> Did the email server fall over again? >> > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 18 14:15:10 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 12:15:10 -0800 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: <56746688.5090206@gmail.com> References: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> <56746688.5090206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02BF972C-564C-4EED-B37F-94DE94FF2621@shiresoft.com> > On Dec 18, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> > The screen on the convertable is not plasma, it is a LCD screen and there where two versions one reflective and the other backlit. In the PS/2 days there where suitcase size machines with plasma displays but they only had a single diskette drive that folded out of the front, one model is the 8573-P70. There where 386 and 486 versions of these machines with microchannel card slots and a SCSI disk. > Again, no. They did not ship with a SCSI disk. They used the same disks as were in the model 50 & 70 (which were *not* SCSI). A number of us at IBM (who worked on the SCSI cards spock & tribble) did fit the card (usually spock because it had 512KB of cache) and an IBM 320MB SCSI drive in the P70. It was *not* a standard (ie orderable) configuration but at the time created a wicked machine! TTFN - Guy From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 14:41:42 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:41:42 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED In-Reply-To: <02BF972C-564C-4EED-B37F-94DE94FF2621@shiresoft.com> References: <60f291.5067c5a8.43a51351@aol.com> <56746688.5090206@gmail.com> <02BF972C-564C-4EED-B37F-94DE94FF2621@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56746F86.7010907@gmail.com> On 2015-12-18 4:15 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Dec 18, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Paul Berger wrote: >> >> The screen on the convertable is not plasma, it is a LCD screen and there where two versions one reflective and the other backlit. In the PS/2 days there where suitcase size machines with plasma displays but they only had a single diskette drive that folded out of the front, one model is the 8573-P70. There where 386 and 486 versions of these machines with microchannel card slots and a SCSI disk. >> > Again, no. They did not ship with a SCSI disk. They used the same disks as were in the model 50 & 70 (which were *not* SCSI). > > A number of us at IBM (who worked on the SCSI cards spock & tribble) did fit the card (usually spock because it had 512KB of cache) and an IBM 320MB SCSI drive in the P70. It was *not* a standard (ie orderable) configuration but at the time created a wicked machine! > > TTFN - Guy > > Ok I was thinking more of the P75, I remember seeing the same 320 or 400MB disks that where used in early RS/6000 systems in them. The P70, now that I check the documentation the P70, did in fact have an ESDI disk with the built in controller, a kind of microchannel IDE disk. Paul. From isking at uw.edu Fri Dec 18 15:00:04 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:00:04 -0800 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: <56744E73.1050906@gmail.com> References: <20151218144051.4C6F018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56744A9E.1060602@sydex.com> <56744E73.1050906@gmail.com> Message-ID: I deal with modern computing devices with no visual display - or at least, the visual display is not used. My current Day Job is in accessibility, and I make extensive use of screen readers (your Android phone comes with TalkBack, and if you're an iSerf you have VoiceOver). It changes the design space a lot - not only because 'display' is spoken word rather than graphics, but because the screen reader inherently serializes the experience of the UI. On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:20 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2015-12-18 2:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 12/18/2015 06:40 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> Agree completely. The amount of useless 'eye candy' on the average >>> Web page is, well, appalling. But then again, the low S/N on >>> developing technologies, as worthless content expands faster than >>> high quality - well, that's nothing new, look at TV. >>> >> >> >> Heh. Remember when "public TV" used to be called "educational TV"? Do >> you remember "Sunrise Semester"? Julius Sumner Miller? >> >> --Chuck >> >> ...Or the learning channel had something to do with learning and the > history channel had something to do with history. I stopped watching TV a > few years ago, playing with old computers is much more fun... > > Paul. > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 18 15:00:39 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:00:39 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-16, at 10:26 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> First crack can be picked up here: >> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf >> >> There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. >> Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some connections around those. >> If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red I can update the schematic. >> >> I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely scenario: >> D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 is likely the ASCII LSB. >> nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like active-low. >> BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / READY / ACK. > > Amazing work Brent! > > I've wired the thing up in accordance with your schematics and here > are the results: > > On power-up the line we believe is Strobe is high; all others are low > - and I'm monitoring the printer side of the interface here. > > I cat file.name > /dev/lp0 > > The printer prints a character; Linux is waiting. The line we presume > to be Busy/Ready flickers briefly high as it is printed. > > I toggle the local/com switch from com to local and back to com: > another character is printed. Linux waits. I can sometimes continue > this process one character at a time by toggling the local/com switch. > At other times toggling the switch sends Linux straight back to the > command prompt. > > The characters printed are pretty exclusively semicolons underscores and 8s. > > The carriage never advances; all characters are printed at the same spot. > > Further observations: > > - If I initiate the print with the Strobe line disconnected Linux > returns to the command prompt instantly and nothing is printed. > - If I disconnect the Strobe line after printing has started Linux > returns to the command prompt instantly after the com/local switch is > cycled > - If I disconnect the Busy line prior to starting to print nothing is > printed until I connect the Busy line > - If I print a character by cycling the local/com switch with the Busy > line disconnected a *second* character is printed when I reconnect it. > - Busy flickers high every time a character is printed. The status of > the Strobe line never visibly changes; it always appears high. Might > put a scope on those... > > There's clearly something funky going on with signaling - timing or > active high vs. active low. At no time does the printer *ever* print > more than one character without some manual intervention. Hard to say from this distance what's going on, with all the unknowns involved (lack of familiarity with the selectric mech, the connections to the selectric mech, the intervening drivers, etc.) I take it you mean you simply cross-connected directly to a standard parallel port. Just some thoughts/suggestions: - If the strobe pulse can't be seen (visually) perhaps it's too fast for the requirements of the mechanism/interface. - When the cat returns, perhaps Linux is seeing the interface as continuously ready (or ready too quickly) and dumps the the data out at far too high a rate. - Try doing all the signalling manually: set up a character on the data lines by connecting to gnd, then manually take the nSTB line to gnd. Try both printing characters and controls like CR & LF. - I notice there is one line from the proms that feeds back into the strobe/busy logic. I wonder if that might be distinguishing printing operations from control operations and setting up different ready/busy indication. - Perhaps this interface needs some tailored semantics, like a throttled character rate, or the data lines have to transition to all low or all high between each character/operation. Can someone with experience answer a couple questions about the raw selectric mechanism interface? - How many signals (solenoids/magnets) are there for the tilt/rotate/operation selection? I take it the parameters are: tilt: 4 values, rotate: 11 values (-5 thru +5) plus shift to rotate the ball 180 degrees, but how is that actually set up or apportioned on the T/R/O solenoids? - Does the selectric mechanism print a character immediately upon the T/R/O selection being set up (in parallel) on the solenoids, or does one set up the T/R/O on the solenoids and then trigger another solenoid to initiate the action? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Dec 18 15:31:00 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 13:31:00 -0800 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-18, at 12:13 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brent Hilpert" > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 2:01 AM > > First crack can be picked up here: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf > > ----- Reply ----- > > Mind telling me/us what software you used to draw that schematic? On 2015-Dec-18, at 8:17 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > May I ask what software you use for creating your schematics ?? > I like the way gates are drawn. They're drawn using the drawing segment of the old Mac AppleWorks / ClarisWorks application suite. The symbols are my own 'symbol package', so to speak. It's not something you want to take up with: - Apple has EOL'd AppleWorks and no longer supports it. Currently I have to maintain a MacOS 10.4 system to continue to maintain the schematics I've drawn over the past 20+ years of use. They can be PDF'd for presentation on current machines and of course printed, but then they're static. I hear BareBones Software produces a current program that can draw & manipulate the original files, I need to check that out. - It's not a native schematic-drawing program, so it doesn't do things such as automatically maintain connections as you manually organise elements. - By the same token, it of course doesn't produce things like netlists, which would be nice to feed into simulations. I need to move to something newer but I haven't evaluated current schematic-drawing programs, and I'm a little concerned they won't provide the degree of control or finesse I like From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 15:42:32 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:42:32 -0400 Subject: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: References: <2BDFEDB2-E843-40BD-928D-3EA0DA6AF95C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <56747DC8.6020208@gmail.com> On 2015-12-18 5:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Dec-16, at 10:26 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> First crack can be picked up here: >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/WIOSelectric.pdf >>> >>> There are a few areas and pins I couldn't discern from the photos. >>> Mostly around U1 & U6 as the lens angle and lighting is hiding some connections around those. >>> If you take another photo or check some of the connections marked in red I can update the schematic. >>> >>> I've labeled the host interface connections as per the most likely scenario: >>> D0-D6: in correspondence to the 'normal' PROM addressing, so D0 is likely the ASCII LSB. >>> nSTB: this should be the print-strobe input, looks like active-low. >>> BUSY/RDY: haven't examined the logic enough to say whether this active-high or -low for whichever way one chooses to interpret it - BUSY / READY / ACK. >> Amazing work Brent! >> >> I've wired the thing up in accordance with your schematics and here >> are the results: >> >> On power-up the line we believe is Strobe is high; all others are low >> - and I'm monitoring the printer side of the interface here. >> >> I cat file.name > /dev/lp0 >> >> The printer prints a character; Linux is waiting. The line we presume >> to be Busy/Ready flickers briefly high as it is printed. >> >> I toggle the local/com switch from com to local and back to com: >> another character is printed. Linux waits. I can sometimes continue >> this process one character at a time by toggling the local/com switch. >> At other times toggling the switch sends Linux straight back to the >> command prompt. >> >> The characters printed are pretty exclusively semicolons underscores and 8s. >> >> The carriage never advances; all characters are printed at the same spot. >> >> Further observations: >> >> - If I initiate the print with the Strobe line disconnected Linux >> returns to the command prompt instantly and nothing is printed. >> - If I disconnect the Strobe line after printing has started Linux >> returns to the command prompt instantly after the com/local switch is >> cycled >> - If I disconnect the Busy line prior to starting to print nothing is >> printed until I connect the Busy line >> - If I print a character by cycling the local/com switch with the Busy >> line disconnected a *second* character is printed when I reconnect it. >> - Busy flickers high every time a character is printed. The status of >> the Strobe line never visibly changes; it always appears high. Might >> put a scope on those... >> >> There's clearly something funky going on with signaling - timing or >> active high vs. active low. At no time does the printer *ever* print >> more than one character without some manual intervention. > Hard to say from this distance what's going on, with all the unknowns involved (lack of familiarity with the selectric mech, the connections to the selectric mech, the intervening drivers, etc.) > I take it you mean you simply cross-connected directly to a standard parallel port. > > Just some thoughts/suggestions: > - If the strobe pulse can't be seen (visually) perhaps it's too fast for the requirements of the mechanism/interface. > > - When the cat returns, perhaps Linux is seeing the interface as continuously ready (or ready too quickly) > and dumps the the data out at far too high a rate. > > - Try doing all the signalling manually: set up a character on the data lines by connecting to gnd, > then manually take the nSTB line to gnd. > Try both printing characters and controls like CR & LF. > > - I notice there is one line from the proms that feeds back into the strobe/busy logic. I wonder if that might be > distinguishing printing operations from control operations and setting up different ready/busy indication. > > - Perhaps this interface needs some tailored semantics, like a throttled character rate, or the data lines have to > transition to all low or all high between each character/operation. > > Can someone with experience answer a couple questions about the raw selectric mechanism interface? > > - How many signals (solenoids/magnets) are there for the tilt/rotate/operation selection? > I take it the parameters are: > tilt: 4 values, > rotate: 11 values (-5 thru +5) > plus shift to rotate the ball 180 degrees, > but how is that actually set up or apportioned on the T/R/O solenoids? > > - Does the selectric mechanism print a character immediately upon the T/R/O selection being set up (in parallel) on the solenoids, > or does one set up the T/R/O on the solenoids and then trigger another solenoid to initiate the action? > There are 7 only 6 are actually used to select the character the 7th is to maintain odd parity check contacts below the selection mechanism are wired so that the signal goes true when an odd number of magnets are picked, I don't remember the polarity of the signal off the top of my head, but I doubt this adapter checks them. Of the 6 that are actually used to select the character, two are for tilt (T1 and T2) three for positive rotate (+1, +2 and +2A) and one for negative rotate (-5). There are also two magnets for shift shift up and shift down, one each for functions installed up to four: Tab, Carriage Return, Line Feed, and Back Space ( not all typers have all the functions installed) and finally there is a magnet to release the cycle clutch. The basic operation is pick the selection magnets and then the cycle clutch feed back contacts tell you when you can release the magnet and set up the next character, properly timed you can have it print at full speed without the cycle clutch latching up, but that is hard on the mechanics they seem to survive better at a slower speed. The shift magnets operate on their own releasing the shift clutch to make a half turn to rotate the ball 180 degrees. The function magnets release a clutched cam on the operational shaft the initiates their function, there are also feedback contacts for these functions and for shift. Paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 18 16:38:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 17:38:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Design tools Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 Message-ID: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert > I need to move to something newer but I haven't evaluated current > schematic-drawing programs Dave Bridgham got me started with KiCAD, and that seems like a pretty good system to me. It has separate sub-systems for schematic capture; circuitry checking; netlist generation; PCB layout; etc, etc. I've only worked with the first three, but it seemed pretty good for them. > I'm a little concerned they won't provide the degree of control or > finesse I like Well, you'll have to try it and see, but it's pretty customizable: they provide libraries of common components, but it has a nice component editor for drawing up new ones (or customizing the ones it comes with). Component location and line routing (in the schematic capture) are manual, but it's grid-based, so things line up. Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 18 16:56:27 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:56:27 -0000 Subject: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) In-Reply-To: <20151218144403.CD7EB18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151218144403.CD7EB18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <04b801d139e7$53c7b2c0$fb571840$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: 18 December 2015 14:44 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Decisions you regret (classiccmp related) > > > From: Doug Ingraham > > > I regret that when I obtained my Straight 8 system in the early 80's I > > chose not to take the ASR-35. > > ... > > A glass terminal is not the same experience as a teletype. > > Thank goodness for that! I had the 'joy' of using exclusively Teletypes for the > first two years I worked with computers, and I didn't (and still don't) miss > them one bit! > > Which is not to say I look down on those who collect/restore them, I > understand they are an important part of the history, and I salute those who > are into them. I'm just saying that, as a user, I was glad to move on! > I sort of know what you mean. When I transitioned from Teletype Model 33s to a glass teletype, everything was much faster, and quieter! I remember a room full of Model 33s, all going full tilt, you could hear them from 50 yards away down the corridor, and when the system went down, and they all stopped at once, the silence was deafening. Still, I have a lovely Model 33 now, courtesy of another list member, I think it is great, and a wonderful reminder of my first computer experiences. Regards Rob From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 18 17:00:15 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:00:15 -0800 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff Message-ID: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) TTFN - Guy From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Dec 18 17:25:18 2015 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 18:25:18 -0500 Subject: WTB: Fluke 9005/9010 pods or whole fluke 9005/9010 with pods Message-ID: <0e5e03a32e71c7451451d6f81675245d@www.hawkmountain.net> Looking for some Fluke Micro System Troubleshooter stuff: Looking for the following key caps: AUTO, BUS, RAM SHORT, and C Bonus key caps (not needed, but better ones would be nice): RAM LONG, I/O, 1, 2 Also looking for PODS for: 6502 Z80 6809 8080 If you have any of these available, please let me know what you have and a price. Thanks, -- Curt From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Dec 18 18:18:03 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:18:03 -0500 Subject: IBM PS/2 Model 70 HARD DRIVE NEEDED Message-ID: <807869.e0025a9.43a5fc3b@aol.com> ok we have this In the PS/2 days there where suitcase size machines with plasma displays but they only had a single diskette drive that folded out of the front, we also have the dual disc laptop 1st thing IBM made with lcd then we also have a one that is like a suitcase compaq portable that made compaq famous ok thinks for it all being non scsi! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/18/2015 1:15:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ggs at shiresoft.com writes: > On Dec 18, 2015, at 12:03 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > >> > The screen on the convertable is not plasma, it is a LCD screen and there where two versions one reflective and the other backlit. In the PS/2 days there where suitcase size machines with plasma displays but they only had a single diskette drive that folded out of the front, one model is the 8573-P70. There where 386 and 486 versions of these machines with microchannel card slots and a SCSI disk. > Again, no. They did not ship with a SCSI disk. They used the same disks as were in the model 50 & 70 (which were *not* SCSI). A number of us at IBM (who worked on the SCSI cards spock & tribble) did fit the card (usually spock because it had 512KB of cache) and an IBM 320MB SCSI drive in the P70. It was *not* a standard (ie orderable) configuration but at the time created a wicked machine! TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 18 18:19:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 16:19:21 -0800 Subject: Design tools Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5674A289.7020008@sydex.com> On 12/18/2015 02:38 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Dave Bridgham got me started with KiCAD, and that seems like a pretty > good system to me. It has separate sub-systems for schematic capture; > circuitry checking; netlist generation; PCB layout; etc, etc. I've > only worked with the first three, but it seemed pretty good for > them. KiCAD isn't bad; I used to use Eagle a lot, which was also pretty good. Before that was OrCAD, and before that, Schema--and before that, a plastic template and a pencil. If you join the "OldDOSOrcad" Yahoo group, I think they've got a copy of OrCAD and additional files if you find yourself pining for the old stuff. Schematics have changed a lot in my experience. There was a time when drawing wires was important; a lot of schematics today look more like pin lists then a circuit diagram. Times change. --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 19:27:53 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:27:53 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Oh sounds like fun! I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. Mike On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. > > I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. > > I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. > > One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. > > Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). > > Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) > > TTFN - Guy > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 19:30:13 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:30:13 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. Mike On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Oh sounds like fun! > > I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to > older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel > attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU > hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and > needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote > connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with > Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an > emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html > > I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from > 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm > > Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to > Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. > > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >> >> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >> >> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >> >> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >> >> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >> >> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >> >> TTFN - Guy >> > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 19:39:50 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 20:39:50 -0500 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. -- Will On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much > dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in > hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. > > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> Oh sounds like fun! >> >> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >> >> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >> >> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>> >>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>> >>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>> >>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>> >>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>> >>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 19:40:14 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 21:40:14 -0400 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5674B57E.5060702@gmail.com> On 2015-12-18 9:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much > dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in > hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. > > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> Oh sounds like fun! >> >> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >> >> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >> >> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>> >>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>> >>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>> >>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>> >>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>> >>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > The 3272 is a channel attach controller the 3271 is the remote BSC (mods 1&2 )or SDLC (mods 11&12). I only recall seeing bisync ones, and 30+ years later I can still remember the bisync pollong sequence. Paul. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 20:32:25 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 15:32:25 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I have a 3271 Model 2 - the remote bisync one. It's in embarrassing condition; I'll take pics once it's cleaned up! Only IBM product I have with significant wood in it; the top panel of the unit is made of formica-covered chipboard! No docs. I wonder if it might be possible to finagle it into working with my 3277 by a direct hookup to a serial port on a P/390, or a machine running Hercules? Mike On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. > I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. > > -- > Will > > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much >> dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in >> hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> Oh sounds like fun! >>> >>> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >>> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >>> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >>> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >>> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >>> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >>> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >>> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >>> >>> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >>> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >>> >>> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >>> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>>> >>>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>>> >>>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>>> >>>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>>> >>>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>>> >>>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 20:40:03 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 21:40:03 -0500 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Most (all?) 029/129s have a chipboard top. Also, you S/3 should, right? The only bit of classic computer stuff I have ever seen with REAL wood on it was a Computervision system during college. The cabinets has strips of oak on the front. Quite nice. -- Will On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I have a 3271 Model 2 - the remote bisync one. It's in embarrassing > condition; I'll take pics once it's cleaned up! Only IBM product I > have with significant wood in it; the top panel of the unit is made of > formica-covered chipboard! > > No docs. > > I wonder if it might be possible to finagle it into working with my > 3277 by a direct hookup to a serial port on a P/390, or a machine > running Hercules? > > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. >> I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much >>> dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in >>> hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> Oh sounds like fun! >>>> >>>> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >>>> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >>>> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >>>> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >>>> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >>>> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >>>> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >>>> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >>>> >>>> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >>>> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >>>> >>>> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >>>> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>>>> >>>>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>>>> >>>>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>>>> >>>>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>>>> >>>>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>>>> >>>>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 20:45:29 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:45:29 -0400 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5674C4C9.9080703@gmail.com> Its possible, but you need a modem eliminator mostly to provide the clocks for the sync data line, other than that is is similar to a null modem. I remember the control units being pretty much trouble free however the 3277 terminals,3284 and 3286 printers where a different story. What I remember of the 3277 is they seemed to never have solid problems always seemed to be intermittent. We would swap groups of cards between 3277s in an attempt to isolate and leave notes in the terminals saying what cards where swapped and why, and you would find notes from years before buried in the dust from people who had done the same thing before. The 3284 and 86 printers could be a bit of a nightmare, like the rest of the system they where all hardware and the printing was timed by toothed where and emitters that detected the teeth playing with them usually led to trouble. I remember times when the carrier would take off at full speed and slam into the right frame reverse and slam into the left frame while you scrambled to get to the power switch. The 3287 printer with the adapter to attach to 3271/2 was a God send. Paul. On 2015-12-18 10:32 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I have a 3271 Model 2 - the remote bisync one. It's in embarrassing > condition; I'll take pics once it's cleaned up! Only IBM product I > have with significant wood in it; the top panel of the unit is made of > formica-covered chipboard! > > No docs. > > I wonder if it might be possible to finagle it into working with my > 3277 by a direct hookup to a serial port on a P/390, or a machine > running Hercules? > > Mike > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. >> I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much >>> dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in >>> hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> Oh sounds like fun! >>>> >>>> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >>>> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >>>> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >>>> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >>>> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >>>> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >>>> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >>>> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >>>> >>>> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >>>> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >>>> >>>> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >>>> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>>>> >>>>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>>>> >>>>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>>>> >>>>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>>>> >>>>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>>>> >>>>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 20:47:03 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 15:47:03 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: My 129 had a chipboard top I believe; I can't confirm as the bloody thing was stolen! (Belongs in 'biggest regrets' thread grrrr). No wood in my System/3s; all metal, including the 'desktop' which ties the CPU to the printer and disk/card units. I'll tell what does have wood though, now I think about it; the 'desktop' which holds the Selectric mechanism on my 2741s. And the desktop on my 5496 keypunches. OK the 3271 is the only 'non-desk' IBM product I've seen with wood in it! :-) Mike On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 3:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Most (all?) 029/129s have a chipboard top. Also, you S/3 should, right? > > The only bit of classic computer stuff I have ever seen with REAL wood > on it was a Computervision system during college. The cabinets has > strips of oak on the front. Quite nice. > > -- > Will > > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> I have a 3271 Model 2 - the remote bisync one. It's in embarrassing >> condition; I'll take pics once it's cleaned up! Only IBM product I >> have with significant wood in it; the top panel of the unit is made of >> formica-covered chipboard! >> >> No docs. >> >> I wonder if it might be possible to finagle it into working with my >> 3277 by a direct hookup to a serial port on a P/390, or a machine >> running Hercules? >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:39 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. >>> I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much >>>> dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in >>>> hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>>> Oh sounds like fun! >>>>> >>>>> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >>>>> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >>>>> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >>>>> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >>>>> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >>>>> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >>>>> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >>>>> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >>>>> >>>>> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >>>>> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >>>>> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals hooked up. >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator board. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if there?s some other reason behind it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT mode terminal. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 21:01:29 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 16:01:29 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: <5674C4C9.9080703@gmail.com> References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> <5674C4C9.9080703@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've just repaired my 3277 which had lain idle for Goddess knows how long - decades possibly. I stripped, cleaned, and inspected it. I found a loose capacitor - one of the tiny black rectangular ones - lying in the bottom of the thing. I found out where it came from on the analog board and put a new one in. Powered it up slowly on the variac. Nada. Flyback wasn't getting power but all PSU voltages checked out ok. Then I found the PSU wiring on the analog board - those edge connectors - was bad; the connector was aged brittle plastic and had cracked. I bodged a fix for that, tried again, and it came right up. When I powered it down, I couldn't get it back up again initially... found I could manage it by dialing the variac back down to the point where the screen started to roll, then bringing it back up again. The whole thing was very flaky. Left it running for several hours and now it's fine; powers right up and comes online every time - touch wood! Guess the capacitors needed time to settle down. But I agree, not one of IBM's more impressive products - and that squares with what I've heard from others too. Here's mine running: http://www.corestore.org/3277up.jpg I've got another one coming next week - this one in much nicer cosmetic condition complete with all the panels - the one I have is 'naked'. This will leave me with two (hopefully) working 3277s but only one keyboard between them; the new one is coming without a keyboard - anyone got a spare? And no the 3278/3279 keyboards will NOT work. Mike On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > Its possible, but you need a modem eliminator mostly to provide the clocks > for the sync data line, other than that is is similar to a null modem. > > I remember the control units being pretty much trouble free however the 3277 > terminals,3284 and 3286 printers where a different story. What I remember > of the 3277 is they seemed to never have solid problems always seemed to be > intermittent. We would swap groups of cards between 3277s in an attempt to > isolate and leave notes in the terminals saying what cards where swapped and > why, and you would find notes from years before buried in the dust from > people who had done the same thing before. The 3284 and 86 printers could > be a bit of a nightmare, like the rest of the system they where all hardware > and the printing was timed by toothed where and emitters that detected the > teeth playing with them usually led to trouble. I remember times when the > carrier would take off at full speed and slam into the right frame reverse > and slam into the left frame while you scrambled to get to the power switch. > The 3287 printer with the adapter to attach to 3271/2 was a God send. > > Paul. > > > On 2015-12-18 10:32 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I have a 3271 Model 2 - the remote bisync one. It's in embarrassing >> condition; I'll take pics once it's cleaned up! Only IBM product I >> have with significant wood in it; the top panel of the unit is made of >> formica-covered chipboard! >> >> No docs. >> >> I wonder if it might be possible to finagle it into working with my >> 3277 by a direct hookup to a serial port on a P/390, or a machine >> running Hercules? >> >> Mike >> >> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:39 PM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >>> >>> Do you have a 3272? I found one during the cleanup of the Black Hole. >>> I think I can get ALDs and docs for it. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:30 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> >>>> grrrr 3271 and 3272 controllers I should have said! They're much >>>> dumber than 3174 - no program load device whatever; all done in >>>> hardware. Just an on/off switch and a couple of status lights. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 2:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Oh sounds like fun! >>>>> >>>>> I'm working with 3277 which uses a different protocol; connects to >>>>> older mainframes (360/370) via 3171/3172 controllers - channel >>>>> attached or remote. Also connects to System/3 direct to the CPU >>>>> hardware as a console. I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and >>>>> needs restoration but *should* work if I can fake the remote >>>>> connection and modem - bisync etc. But just now I'm working with >>>>> Henk's 3277->RS232 converter - trying to get it hooked up to an >>>>> emulated System/3 - http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/emulators.html >>>>> >>>>> I've played this game a lot - including telnetting into Linux from >>>>> 3270 screens - see http://www.corestore.org/emuterm.htm >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know when you manage to ship those 3174 diskettes to >>>>> Henk; I know he's keen to get them ASAP. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Guy Sotomayor >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve been tinkering around with my IBM Mainframe terminals and I?m >>>>>> pretty close to having everything the way that I want it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I currently have an IBM 3174-61R Establishment controller connecting >>>>>> to my ?mainframes? via TCP/IP. This allows me to not only connect to my >>>>>> Multiprise 3000 S/390 but also some PCs running Hercules to allow me to run >>>>>> older versions of the mainframe OS?s. I currently have 3 IBM 3179 terminals >>>>>> hooked up. >>>>>> >>>>>> I?ve upgraded the 3174 to be able to boot from a hard disk (it was a >>>>>> supported option). I actually purchased the upgrade from a reputable vendor >>>>>> but after many attempts we could not actually get it to do anything useful. >>>>>> I learned about DavidG?s MFM emulator and that?s now installed in the 3174 >>>>>> which happily boots from it. I still have to figure out a permanent mount >>>>>> for it since the standard 3174 HDD mounts don?t work for the MFM emulator >>>>>> board. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the last things that I wanted to figure out was how to support >>>>>> multiple sessions. I had configured the 3174 to support multiple sessions >>>>>> on each terminal but following the documentation, I could never figure out >>>>>> how to actually switch between the sessions. Well today I managed to do >>>>>> that. Success! I finally figured out the key sequence for switching >>>>>> sessions. It doesn?t match the IBM documentation. It?s not clear to me if >>>>>> that?s because I haven?t configured something properly on the 3174 or if >>>>>> there?s some other reason behind it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Since I also have the AEA feature that allows me to connect ASCII >>>>>> terminals to the 3174, my next project will be to hook up a couple of the >>>>>> terminals that?re deemed ?compatible? (VT100, ADM5 are on the list) and see >>>>>> how that works. But that also involves navigating the 3174 configuration >>>>>> process which is opaque to say the least (there are configuration screens >>>>>> but you need a manual because the fields only have numbers (e.g. 721) to >>>>>> identify them and no other indication as to how they need to be filled in). >>>>>> >>>>>> Oh, the other bizarre thing about the 3174 that?s been configured with >>>>>> TCP/IP is that I can also connect to ?unix? servers with the 3174?s (and the >>>>>> ASCII terminals too). It?ll be interesting to see how that works on a CUT >>>>>> mode terminal. ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> TTFN - Guy >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> >> >> > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 18 21:24:24 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 21:24:24 -0600 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5674CDE8.2020303@pico-systems.com> On 12/18/2015 08:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Most (all?) 029/129s have a chipboard top. Also, you S/3 should, right? > > The only bit of classic computer stuff I have ever seen with REAL wood > on it was a Computervision system during college. The cabinets has > strips of oak on the front. Quite nice. > > I'm pretty sure the desktop on the system 360 and 370 machines were also chipboard with laminate. 129 keypunches were certainly chipboard with laminate, but I think the 029s were steel, with a laminate applied to it. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 18 21:27:08 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:27:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > Most (all?) 029/129s have a chipboard top. Also, you S/3 should, right? > The only bit of classic computer stuff I have ever seen with REAL wood > on it was a Computervision system during college. The cabinets has > strips of oak on the front. Quite nice. Was it the Processor Technology Sol that had oak strips on the sides? The Northstar Horizon had plywood (originally from Ashby Lumber) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 21:27:50 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:27:50 -0500 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: <5674CDE8.2020303@pico-systems.com> References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> <5674CDE8.2020303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I have a spare 029 that got wet, so the desk portion expanded. Definitely chipboard. I think the 1130 also have a chipboard desktop. Many have a distinctive crack from expansion. -- Will On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:24 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/18/2015 08:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Most (all?) 029/129s have a chipboard top. Also, you S/3 should, right? >> >> The only bit of classic computer stuff I have ever seen with REAL wood >> on it was a Computervision system during college. The cabinets has >> strips of oak on the front. Quite nice. >> >> > I'm pretty sure the desktop on the system 360 and 370 machines were also > chipboard with laminate. > > 129 keypunches were certainly chipboard with laminate, but I think the 029s > were steel, with a laminate applied to it. > > Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Dec 18 22:03:51 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 22:03:51 -0600 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: <026277FF-0716-45CF-B3F3-1141C9212B4E@shiresoft.com> <5674CDE8.2020303@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5674D727.9090207@pico-systems.com> On 12/18/2015 09:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I have a spare 029 that got wet, so the desk portion expanded. > Definitely chipboard. > > Sorry, I was thinking of the 026! Jon From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 09:34:49 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 15:34:49 +0000 Subject: Decisions you regret In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 10:48 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > On Dec 17, 2015, at 4:40 PM, devin davison wrote: > > > > I Volunteer constantly at the salvation army looking for such things to > > show up. > > I love your dedication to the hobby. Working at the Salvation Army just > to get an "in" on the vintage computers. Brilliant! -- ?If I my feet were not crushed 5 years ago I would totaly get a job at the SA too!!? *Honda ATC 3wheeler's for LIFE!!!* * Have a blessed day!* From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 01:30:48 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 07:30:48 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 17 December 2015 16:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > NB the two brown capacitors seen in the middle top of your photo are > among ones that leaked in my PSU; an SXF marking is barely recognisable on > the edge of the lower one in your photo. After considerable effort earlier > this year I succeeded with removing the intermediate heatsink blocking > access to these caps, by desoldering the four rectifier dual-diodes holding > the heatsink in place -- at the cost of losing a leg from one of the smaller ones > (a Motorola MBR3045PT) and some damage to the PCB. These caps are on the 5V/3.3 board, and after close inspection, do not appear to have leaked. I have been unable to reach them with the probes from my ESR meter either. Given that the leaked ones were on the 12V board I had just replaced those, and cleaned up the leaked electrolyte and then tested the PSU again. It did work briefly, with no ripple on 5V, but I did not have access to measure 3.3V ripple. I have had suggestions to just pull these out from above and solder them in from above, rather than go through the horrible procedure you describe. I am going to use a dummy load today to test the PSU on the bench to see if it shuts down outside the machine. The problem will be to know which of the outputs is causing the shutdown. I wonder if it is possible to test the PSU with one output board removed, so that I can identify which board is the bad one? I know I already asked this, but if anyone happens to know that would be great! > > Fortunately MBR3045PT parts are still available and I was able to get a > replacement, and the damage to the PCB is I believe not critical. What's > important the larger rectifier dual-diodes (84CNQ045; no clear indication of > the manufacturer) have survived intact, as these seem to have become > unobtainium now. Apparently the last die foundry capable of making these > parts has discontinued them earlier this year due to lack of customer > interest, so the only source remaining might be part recovery from otherwise > broken equipment. > > Overall I think I'll need better tools to be able to desolder such stuff in a > more repeatable and less destructive way. The thick legs of the > 84CNQ045 parts combined with the large volume and consequently thermal > capacity of the intermediate heatsink seem to be able to take heat away > virtually instantaneously. I'll appreciate your advice on choosing a good > soldering/desoldering station, capable of handling such high-current (and > consequently highly heat-conducting) parts. Well, when I tried to do this on a previous H7874 I had, a friend of mine (on this list) helped me out with this on the 12V board. We used one of these: http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/digital-desoldering-station-80w/dp/SD 01384?MER=e-bb45-00001001 without causing damage. I now have one and it works OK, though be careful if, like me, you use some pressure to bend pins upright while trying to desolder, the barrel is not actually that strong! > > For the curious and possibly to provide some information on the parts > involved I've documented progress with the disassembly of this module at: > > (large photos!). Removing the offending caps revealed C322 and C323 > designation underneath; these are 330?F/25V parts. I decided not to move > forward with installing replacements and reassembling the module, or > proceeding with disassembling the other module without upgrading my > soldering/desoldering tools first though. > Those pics show the full horror of this PSU and getting access to the parts! Not for the faint of heart :-) > No idea. I've only recently started finding my way with this system; I'm > mostly a software person. Admittedly quite a low-level one, but still on the > software side. And it's been only earlier this year I discovered the issue with > the dreaded SXF caps, even though I've been using various DEC > hardware/PSUs for over 15 years now. > Yes, I am similar, mainly a software person really, did a bit of electronics at University, but not much at all. Rapidly having to learn more about PSUs! Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 01:30:48 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 07:30:48 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Maciej W. > Rozycki > Sent: 17 December 2015 16:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > NB the two brown capacitors seen in the middle top of your photo are > among ones that leaked in my PSU; an SXF marking is barely recognisable on > the edge of the lower one in your photo. After considerable effort earlier > this year I succeeded with removing the intermediate heatsink blocking > access to these caps, by desoldering the four rectifier dual-diodes holding > the heatsink in place -- at the cost of losing a leg from one of the smaller ones > (a Motorola MBR3045PT) and some damage to the PCB. These caps are on the 5V/3.3 board, and after close inspection, do not appear to have leaked. I have been unable to reach them with the probes from my ESR meter either. Given that the leaked ones were on the 12V board I had just replaced those, and cleaned up the leaked electrolyte and then tested the PSU again. It did work briefly, with no ripple on 5V, but I did not have access to measure 3.3V ripple. I have had suggestions to just pull these out from above and solder them in from above, rather than go through the horrible procedure you describe. I am going to use a dummy load today to test the PSU on the bench to see if it shuts down outside the machine. The problem will be to know which of the outputs is causing the shutdown. I wonder if it is possible to test the PSU with one output board removed, so that I can identify which board is the bad one? I know I already asked this, but if anyone happens to know that would be great! > > Fortunately MBR3045PT parts are still available and I was able to get a > replacement, and the damage to the PCB is I believe not critical. What's > important the larger rectifier dual-diodes (84CNQ045; no clear indication of > the manufacturer) have survived intact, as these seem to have become > unobtainium now. Apparently the last die foundry capable of making these > parts has discontinued them earlier this year due to lack of customer > interest, so the only source remaining might be part recovery from otherwise > broken equipment. > > Overall I think I'll need better tools to be able to desolder such stuff in a > more repeatable and less destructive way. The thick legs of the > 84CNQ045 parts combined with the large volume and consequently thermal > capacity of the intermediate heatsink seem to be able to take heat away > virtually instantaneously. I'll appreciate your advice on choosing a good > soldering/desoldering station, capable of handling such high-current (and > consequently highly heat-conducting) parts. Well, when I tried to do this on a previous H7874 I had, a friend of mine (on this list) helped me out with this on the 12V board. We used one of these: http://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/digital-desoldering-station-80w/dp/SD 01384?MER=e-bb45-00001001 without causing damage. I now have one and it works OK, though be careful if, like me, you use some pressure to bend pins upright while trying to desolder, the barrel is not actually that strong! > > For the curious and possibly to provide some information on the parts > involved I've documented progress with the disassembly of this module at: > > (large photos!). Removing the offending caps revealed C322 and C323 > designation underneath; these are 330?F/25V parts. I decided not to move > forward with installing replacements and reassembling the module, or > proceeding with disassembling the other module without upgrading my > soldering/desoldering tools first though. > Those pics show the full horror of this PSU and getting access to the parts! Not for the faint of heart :-) > No idea. I've only recently started finding my way with this system; I'm > mostly a software person. Admittedly quite a low-level one, but still on the > software side. And it's been only earlier this year I discovered the issue with > the dreaded SXF caps, even though I've been using various DEC > hardware/PSUs for over 15 years now. > Yes, I am similar, mainly a software person really, did a bit of electronics at University, but not much at all. Rapidly having to learn more about PSUs! Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 02:54:32 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 01:54:32 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal Microengine floppy adapter (was Re: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 2:48 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've designed a simple adapter PCB [for the DC37S floppy connector of the Western Digital WD900/WD9000 Pascal Microengine] > To support proper head load or motor spinup timing, I put an optional > PIC microcontroller and DIP switch on the adapter, to act as a digital > delay between HLD and HLT, with sixteen switch-selectable delays. I've got the PIC code written and tested (standalone). I saw some really weird behavior at first. There's a 10K SIP resistor network for pullups, and I'd installed it backwards, so there was 20K between logic signals instead of 10K between each and the +5V low-impedance power rail. Since some of those logic signals were intended to be driven by open-collector drivers, and weren't being drive, it looked like the PIC was mysteriously driving some pins configured as inputs. Once I figured that out and fixed it, the code worked fine. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 03:56:25 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 09:56:25 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04e401d13a43$8609bce0$921d36a0$@ntlworld.com> A bench test of the PSU with a small dummy load saw the PSU appear to work fine. It might help to load it more to see if it still operates correctly under load. The specs for the PSU are: 22 amperes at +12.1 Vdc 60 amperes at +5 Vdc 7 amperes at +3.4 Vdc 4 amperes at -12.1 Vdc Has anyone got any suggestions for how to create a higher load in a fairly simple manner? It would take a lot of resistors or vehicle light bulbs to create some of those loads, and something heftier than a breadboard to connect them together. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 03:56:25 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 09:56:25 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04e401d13a43$8609bce0$921d36a0$@ntlworld.com> A bench test of the PSU with a small dummy load saw the PSU appear to work fine. It might help to load it more to see if it still operates correctly under load. The specs for the PSU are: 22 amperes at +12.1 Vdc 60 amperes at +5 Vdc 7 amperes at +3.4 Vdc 4 amperes at -12.1 Vdc Has anyone got any suggestions for how to create a higher load in a fairly simple manner? It would take a lot of resistors or vehicle light bulbs to create some of those loads, and something heftier than a breadboard to connect them together. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 04:56:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:56:28 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04e801d13a4b$e96df230$bc49d690$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 19 December 2015 09:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: 'cctech at classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > A bench test of the PSU with a small dummy load saw the PSU appear to > work fine. It might help to load it more to see if it still operates correctly > under load. The specs for the PSU are: > > > 22 amperes at +12.1 Vdc > 60 amperes at +5 Vdc > 7 amperes at +3.4 Vdc > 4 amperes at -12.1 Vdc > > Has anyone got any suggestions for how to create a higher load in a fairly > simple manner? It would take a lot of resistors or vehicle light bulbs to create > some of those loads, and something heftier than a breadboard to connect > them together. > > Thanks > Actually, I may have just narrowed it down a bit. I connected a 12V DC bulb to the -12 output, in parallel to a 15R resistor, and the PSU shuts down immediately. The 12V bulb has a 21W rating. If my calculations are correct, that means the bulb draws 1.75A. The 15R resistor would draw 0.8A. So a total of 2.5A, which is well under the spec of 4A, but causes the PSU to shutdown. Using the 5W filament of the bulb does not cause the PSU to shut down. Is there a flaw in my calculations, or am I really not overloading the -12V supply? Just to recap I had a 15R resistor and a 12V DC 21W bulb in parallel, on the -12V output. Looks like I have an avenue to explore. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 04:56:28 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:56:28 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04e801d13a4b$e96df230$bc49d690$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 19 December 2015 09:56 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Cc: 'cctech at classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > A bench test of the PSU with a small dummy load saw the PSU appear to > work fine. It might help to load it more to see if it still operates correctly > under load. The specs for the PSU are: > > > 22 amperes at +12.1 Vdc > 60 amperes at +5 Vdc > 7 amperes at +3.4 Vdc > 4 amperes at -12.1 Vdc > > Has anyone got any suggestions for how to create a higher load in a fairly > simple manner? It would take a lot of resistors or vehicle light bulbs to create > some of those loads, and something heftier than a breadboard to connect > them together. > > Thanks > Actually, I may have just narrowed it down a bit. I connected a 12V DC bulb to the -12 output, in parallel to a 15R resistor, and the PSU shuts down immediately. The 12V bulb has a 21W rating. If my calculations are correct, that means the bulb draws 1.75A. The 15R resistor would draw 0.8A. So a total of 2.5A, which is well under the spec of 4A, but causes the PSU to shutdown. Using the 5W filament of the bulb does not cause the PSU to shut down. Is there a flaw in my calculations, or am I really not overloading the -12V supply? Just to recap I had a 15R resistor and a 12V DC 21W bulb in parallel, on the -12V output. Looks like I have an avenue to explore. Thanks Rob From applecorey at optonline.net Sat Dec 19 05:04:42 2015 From: applecorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 06:04:42 -0500 Subject: Help locating a 1975/76 Datanetics Rev B or Rev D keyboard Message-ID: <3EC942BF-D61E-432B-BD22-814D3BAE48D8@optonline.net> I?m looking for an original Datanetics keyboard circa 1975/76 like the one Mike Willegal makes a reproduction for, not the more common Apple ][ datanetics keyboard. I have built one of his reproductions, but I?m looking for an original. http://www.willegal.net/appleii/apple1-datanetics.htm Anyone have one they are willing to part with? Thanks, Corey986 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Dec 19 05:50:40 2015 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 11:50:40 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:56:28 +0000" <04e801d13a4b$e96df230$bc49d690$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> > > Actually, I may have just narrowed it down a bit. I connected a 12V DC bulb > to the -12 output, in parallel to a 15R resistor, and the PSU shuts down > immediately. The 12V bulb has a 21W rating. If my calculations are correct, > that means the bulb draws 1.75A. The 15R resistor would draw 0.8A. So a > total of 2.5A, which is well under the spec of 4A, but causes the PSU to > shutdown. Using the 5W filament of the bulb does not cause the PSU to shut > down. > > Is there a flaw in my calculations, or am I really not overloading the -12V > supply? Just to recap I had a 15R resistor and a 12V DC 21W bulb in > parallel, on the -12V output. > Bulbs have a lower than normal resistance when cold so it is possible that you may be drawing more than 4A from the -12V line at the instant that you apply power. Bulbs are great for supplying a minimum load for a power supply that won't regulate without it but they are not so great for supplying a load near the maximum. In the latter case, the maximum load will be exceeded for a short time at startup. This is not a problem if the power supply is designed to cope with this (a power supply for motors for example) but computer power supplies will typically be designed to react quickly to overload conditions. Three or four 15 ohm resistors in parallel would probably make a better load for the -12V line. It seems hard to imagine what could normally draw something approaching 4A on the -12V line in a VAX 4000 though. If it was possible to get an ammeter in series with that line maybe you could get an idea of what the normal draw is on that line, if the power supply stays running long enough. This would give a better idea of what sort of dummy load is needed to simulate it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 08:15:34 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:15:34 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> > Bulbs have a lower than normal resistance when cold so it is possible that you > may be drawing more than 4A from the -12V line at the instant that you apply > power. > > Bulbs are great for supplying a minimum load for a power supply that won't > regulate without it but they are not so great for supplying a load near the > maximum. In the latter case, the maximum load will be exceeded for a short > time at startup. This is not a problem if the power supply is designed to cope > with this (a power supply for motors for example) but computer power > supplies will typically be designed to react quickly to overload conditions. > > Three or four 15 ohm resistors in parallel would probably make a better load > for the -12V line. Unfortunately I don't have enough of these to hand, and the local shop (Maplin) does not have enough in stock. > > It seems hard to imagine what could normally draw something approaching > 4A on the -12V line in a VAX 4000 though. If it was possible to get an > ammeter in series with that line maybe you could get an idea of what the > normal draw is on that line, if the power supply stays running long enough. > This would give a better idea of what sort of dummy load is needed to > simulate it. > I checked the resistance of the backplane across the -12V inputs and it is very high, so it seems unlikely that it could be that. But getting something in series to measure load is going to be really awkward, I will see if I can do it somehow. What would really help would be a way to bench test all the outputs at high-ish loads to see if it is the PSU or not, but I don't know of a practical way to do this with the high currents required. Regards Rob From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Dec 19 09:33:02 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:33:02 -0500 Subject: Design tools Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20151219153301.GN5119@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa [151218 17:38]: > > From: Brent Hilpert > > > I need to move to something newer but I haven't evaluated current > > schematic-drawing programs > > Dave Bridgham got me started with KiCAD, and that seems like a pretty good > system to me. It has separate sub-systems for schematic capture; circuitry > checking; netlist generation; PCB layout; etc, etc. I've only worked with the > first three, but it seemed pretty good for them. > > > I'm a little concerned they won't provide the degree of control or > > finesse I like > > Well, you'll have to try it and see, but it's pretty customizable: they > provide libraries of common components, but it has a nice component editor > for drawing up new ones (or customizing the ones it comes with). > > Component location and line routing (in the schematic capture) are manual, > but it's grid-based, so things line up. > > Noel Not to mention it's open source so if you don't like the control you have you can always change it as desired. Todd From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 19 10:08:30 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 11:08:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Bulbs have a lower than normal resistance when cold [...] >> Three or four 15 ohm resistors in parallel would probably make a >> better load for the -12V line. > Unfortunately I don't have enough of these to hand, and the local > shop (Maplin) does not have enough in stock. :-( > But getting something in series to measure load is going to be really > awkward, [...] As in, you don't have any such thing to put in series, or you don't see a good way to get it in series? I've got a couple of 0R1 resistors which work nicely for that in conjunction with a voltmeter that can handle millivolt measurements; you might be able to get something similar. Mine are 10W, and, while they are designed for bolting to a heatsink, they can probably handle at least 2 or 3 watts, which means some 5-6 amps, in free air. (Though that then drops about half a volt, which can be a problem when you can't put it on the input side of the regulation.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cube1 at charter.net Sat Dec 19 10:24:24 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 10:24:24 -0600 Subject: Design tools Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151219153301.GN5119@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20151219153301.GN5119@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: <567584B8.7030906@charter.net> On 12/19/2015 9:33 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > * Noel Chiappa [151218 17:38]: >> > From: Brent Hilpert >> >> > I need to move to something newer but I haven't evaluated current >> > schematic-drawing programs >> >> Dave Bridgham got me started with KiCAD, and that seems like a pretty good >> system to me. It has separate sub-systems for schematic capture; circuitry >> checking; netlist generation; PCB layout; etc, etc. I've only worked with the >> first three, but it seemed pretty good for them. >> >> > I'm a little concerned they won't provide the degree of control or >> > finesse I like >> >> Well, you'll have to try it and see, but it's pretty customizable: they >> provide libraries of common components, but it has a nice component editor >> for drawing up new ones (or customizing the ones it comes with). >> >> Component location and line routing (in the schematic capture) are manual, >> but it's grid-based, so things line up. >> >> Noel > > Not to mention it's open source so if you don't like the control you > have you can always change it as desired. > > Todd > I settled on and used KiCAD for both the schematic and PCB layout for my Mark-8 project and a couple of other smaller boards, after looking at AutoTrax (DeX), DesignSpark and DipTrace. I actually installed and tried AutoTrax and DesignSpark. I had no problems at all with KiCAD, really. Open source, open ended. Had no issues sending the boards off to be fabricated, etc. JRJ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 11:19:42 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 17:19:42 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 19 December 2015 16:09 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > But getting something in series to measure load is going to be really > > awkward, [...] > > As in, you don't have any such thing to put in series, or you don't see a good > way to get it in series? I've got a couple of 0R1 resistors which work nicely for > that in conjunction with a voltmeter that can handle millivolt measurements; > you might be able to get something similar. Mine are 10W, and, while they > are designed for bolting to a heatsink, they can probably handle at least 2 or 3 > watts, which means some 5-6 amps, in free air. (Though that then drops > about half a volt, which can be a problem when you can't put it on the input > side of the > regulation.) > I think the suggestion was to put an ammeter between the PSU and the backplane. That would be awkward to make all the connections with the PSU out of the machine. Also difficult is to make a dummy load for a bench test that draws enough current to test that it can sustain its rated output at full load (or some decent proportion of full load at any rate). Regards Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 19 12:12:54 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 13:12:54 -0500 Subject: Design tools Was: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102 In-Reply-To: <20151219153301.GN5119@ns1.bonedaddy.net> References: <20151218223832.3BDF318C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20151219153301.GN5119@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2015, at 10:33 AM, Todd Goodman wrote: > > * Noel Chiappa [151218 17:38]: >>> From: Brent Hilpert >> >>> I need to move to something newer but I haven't evaluated current >>> schematic-drawing programs >> >> Dave Bridgham got me started with KiCAD, and that seems like a pretty good >> system to me. It has separate sub-systems for schematic capture; circuitry >> checking; netlist generation; PCB layout; etc, etc. I've only worked with the >> first three, but it seemed pretty good for them.... > > Not to mention it's open source so if you don't like the control you > have you can always change it as desired. Thanks for the pointers, I'm going to check those out. I've been a user (occasional user) of Eagle CAD for years now. It's a pretty good program; the only thing I've missed is split planes. Perhaps those have been added more recently, I haven't looked. Some years ago I ran into an open source PCB layout program that had an interesting approach to routing, yielding curvy looking traces instead of the more typical straight lines and corners. Forgot the name, will see if I can find it again. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 12:31:50 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 18:31:50 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 19 December 2015 17:20 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > > Sent: 19 December 2015 16:09 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > But getting something in series to measure load is going to be > > > really awkward, [...] > > > > As in, you don't have any such thing to put in series, or you don't > > see a > good > > way to get it in series? I've got a couple of 0R1 resistors which > > work > nicely for > > that in conjunction with a voltmeter that can handle millivolt > measurements; > > you might be able to get something similar. Mine are 10W, and, while > > they are designed for bolting to a heatsink, they can probably handle > > at least > 2 or 3 > > watts, which means some 5-6 amps, in free air. (Though that then > > drops about half a volt, which can be a problem when you can't put it > > on the > input > > side of the > > regulation.) > > > > I think the suggestion was to put an ammeter between the PSU and the > backplane. That would be awkward to make all the connections with the PSU > out of the machine. Also difficult is to make a dummy load for a bench test > that draws enough current to test that it can sustain its rated output at full > load (or some decent proportion of full load at any rate). > > Regards > > Rob Rob, Seeing as it already seems to have over current sensing, I guess it has some small resistors in there so perhaps it is possible to measure the current. I notices one looks like this:- http://uk.farnell.com/welwyn/oar1-r020fi/resistor-1-0r020/dp/1200359 Dave From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 19 12:59:29 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 12:59:29 -0600 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <04e801d13a4b$e96df230$bc49d690$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <04e801d13a4b$e96df230$bc49d690$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5675A911.2050705@pico-systems.com> On 12/19/2015 04:56 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > Actually, I may have just narrowed it down a bit. I connected a 12V DC bulb > to the -12 output, in parallel to a 15R resistor, and the PSU shuts down > immediately. The 12V bulb has a 21W rating. If my calculations are correct, > that means the bulb draws 1.75A. The 15R resistor would draw 0.8A. So a > total of 2.5A, which is well under the spec of 4A, but causes the PSU to > shutdown. Using the 5W filament of the bulb does not cause the PSU to shut > down. > > Is there a flaw in my calculations, or am I really not overloading the -12V > supply? Just to recap I had a 15R resistor and a 12V DC 21W bulb in > parallel, on the -12V output. > > Cold light bulbs draw WAY more current than when the filament is hot. Not sure if a 21 W 12V bulb could draw 20 A cold, but it might. Jon From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 13:04:23 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:04:23 -0500 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff Message-ID: From: Mike Ross > I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and needs restoration but *should* work if > I can fake the remote connection and modem - bisync etc. B From: Paul Berger > you need a modem eliminator mostly to provide the clocks for the sync data line, > other than that is is similar to a null modem. Not sure if this would work here, but the Cisco IOS "IBM Feature Set" has support for all sorts of weird bisync use cases. I've used it to fake termination of an ALC (Airline Line Control) bisync connection where a modem connection was expected. You can then convert, tunnel or bridge to any number of other strange things. There even exists an IBM channel attach card for the Cisco 7k routers that turns it into the equivalent of a 3172 and/or 3745. KJ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 13:18:36 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 19:18:36 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: 19 December 2015 18:32 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > Seeing as it already seems to have over current sensing, I guess it has some > small resistors in there so perhaps it is possible to measure the current. I > notices one looks like this:- > > http://uk.farnell.com/welwyn/oar1-r020fi/resistor-1-0r020/dp/1200359 > Ah! So that is what those things are! I definitely think this one is detecting something wrong and shutting down the 12V side. I have just been doing some tests with a dummy load and the 12V side will come up and then go down a few moments later, sometimes it will stay up, it seems a bit random. Presumably then, there is something wrong with the overcurrent detection. I will have to look into how you test these, or perhaps just replace them and see what happens. Regards Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 19 13:25:32 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:25:32 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave >> Wade >> >> Seeing as it already seems to have over current sensing, I guess it has some >> small resistors in there so perhaps it is possible to measure the current. I >> notices one looks like this:- >> >> http://uk.farnell.com/welwyn/oar1-r020fi/resistor-1-0r020/dp/1200359 >> > > > Ah! So that is what those things are! I definitely think this one is > detecting something wrong and shutting down the 12V side. Something to watch out for with high current sense resistors: they often have four connections rather than two. This is a "Kelvin connection": two connections are for the current to be sensed, and the other two pick up the resulting voltage difference. The idea is that you get the voltage drop across the resistor itself, as opposed to the voltage drop across the resistor PLUS the solder joints. That makes a difference if you have a sense resistor of just a few milliohms. If you have a high current supply but it doesn't use Kelvin connected current sense, you're vulnerable to false shutdown if the solder joints are less than perfect. If so, switching to the Kelvin hookup, if you can see how, is a good answer; failing that, make sure the joints are in excellent condition. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 14:44:07 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:44:07 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02c601d13a9e$022ecb80$068c6280$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 19 December 2015 19:19 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > > Wade > > Sent: 19 December 2015 18:32 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > > > > > > Seeing as it already seems to have over current sensing, I guess it > > has > some > > small resistors in there so perhaps it is possible to measure the current. > I > > notices one looks like this:- > > > > http://uk.farnell.com/welwyn/oar1-r020fi/resistor-1-0r020/dp/1200359 > > > > > Ah! So that is what those things are! I definitely think this one is detecting > something wrong and shutting down the 12V side. I have just been doing > some tests with a dummy load and the 12V side will come up and then go > down a few moments later, sometimes it will stay up, it seems a bit random. I wonder if the voltage level detection thinks its out of spec, rather than the over current parts. These PSUs afre exceedingly complex... > Presumably then, there is something wrong with the overcurrent detection. > > I will have to look into how you test these, or perhaps just replace them and > see what happens. > I can't see the resistors themselves being the problem. Perhaps re-soldering them > Regards > > Rob Dave G4UGM From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 14:57:59 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 09:57:59 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh that IS interesting. I have a 3172; never done anything useful with it. Maybe time to have a play. I do remember there was a version of the 3172 that had a P/390 card in it, to allow it to run some kinds of comms stuff that normally ran on a mainframe CPU. Cisco sounds useful too; I'll investigate that. So with the right cabling you could potentially hook a 3277 directly to a correctly configured Cisco router, then (say) telnet to a Linux box... Just as you can with a 3278 connected to a correctly configured 3174? 'Correctly configured' in both cases involving the incantation of complex and obscure runes... Mike On Dec 20, 2015 8:04 AM, "Ken Seefried" wrote: > From: Mike Ross > > > I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and needs restoration but > *should* work if > > I can fake the remote connection and modem - bisync etc. B > > From: Paul Berger > > > you need a modem eliminator mostly to provide the clocks for the sync > data line, > > other than that is is similar to a null modem. > > Not sure if this would work here, but the Cisco IOS "IBM Feature Set" > has support for all sorts of weird bisync use cases. I've used it to > fake termination of an ALC (Airline Line Control) bisync connection > where a modem connection was expected. You can then convert, tunnel > or bridge to any number of other strange things. > > There even exists an IBM channel attach card for the Cisco 7k routers > that turns it into the equivalent of a 3172 and/or 3745. > > KJ > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 15:00:32 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:00:32 +1300 Subject: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Grrrr I should have said "hook a *3271* directly to a Cisco router" Mike On Dec 20, 2015 9:57 AM, "Mike Ross" wrote: > Oh that IS interesting. I have a 3172; never done anything useful with it. > Maybe time to have a play. I do remember there was a version of the 3172 > that had a P/390 card in it, to allow it to run some kinds of comms stuff > that normally ran on a mainframe CPU. > > Cisco sounds useful too; I'll investigate that. So with the right cabling > you could potentially hook a 3277 directly to a correctly configured Cisco > router, then (say) telnet to a Linux box... Just as you can with a 3278 > connected to a correctly configured 3174? 'Correctly configured' in both > cases involving the incantation of complex and obscure runes... > > Mike > On Dec 20, 2015 8:04 AM, "Ken Seefried" wrote: > >> From: Mike Ross >> >> > I have a 3172 controller; physically rough and needs restoration but >> *should* work if >> > I can fake the remote connection and modem - bisync etc. B >> >> From: Paul Berger >> >> > you need a modem eliminator mostly to provide the clocks for the sync >> data line, >> > other than that is is similar to a null modem. >> >> Not sure if this would work here, but the Cisco IOS "IBM Feature Set" >> has support for all sorts of weird bisync use cases. I've used it to >> fake termination of an ALC (Airline Line Control) bisync connection >> where a modem connection was expected. You can then convert, tunnel >> or bridge to any number of other strange things. >> >> There even exists an IBM channel attach card for the Cisco 7k routers >> that turns it into the equivalent of a 3172 and/or 3745. >> >> KJ >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 15:05:50 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 21:05:50 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 19 December 2015 19:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > Something to watch out for with high current sense resistors: they often > have four connections rather than two. This is a "Kelvin connection": two > connections are for the current to be sensed, and the other two pick up the > resulting voltage difference. The idea is that you get the voltage drop across > the resistor itself, as opposed to the voltage drop across the resistor PLUS > the solder joints. That makes a difference if you have a sense resistor of just > a few milliohms. > > If you have a high current supply but it doesn't use Kelvin connected current > sense, you're vulnerable to false shutdown if the solder joints are less than > perfect. If so, switching to the Kelvin hookup, if you can see how, is a good > answer; failing that, make sure the joints are in excellent condition. > I can't tell if this is a Kelvin connected one or not, although I suspect it probably is. You can see a picture with two here: http://1drv.ms/1micVN7. These are from a second board in the PSU, but they look identical to the one on the problem board. It would appear to have 4 connections, but doesn't look anything like the only Kelvin connected one I could find. I tried testing it with my ESR/Low Ohms Meter, but the nominal value appears to be 0.003R, which is below the range of my meter, the meter shows a value between 0.00 and 0.02, but mostly 0.01. This is with the resistor in circuit. It would be quite difficult to remove it. But I suspect that it may be more the sense circuitry around the resistor than the resistor itself, since the value seems to be OK. If that is the case then I may be in trouble, the sense circuitry seems to be on a little riser board with loads of surface mount components, including an LM339 comparator. Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 14:41:01 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:41:01 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs Message-ID: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> Folks, I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any patch cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, BUT the TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of the patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or 100k resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite directions and any soldered joint just fails. Any usggestions? Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? Dave Wade G4UGM From todd.george at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 15:19:02 2015 From: todd.george at gmail.com (Todd George) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 21:19:02 +0000 Subject: Wanted: NEC PC-8001A Mini-Disk Module PC-8031A Message-ID: Hi there everyone. I'm hunting for an NEC PC-8031A mini-disk module for the NEC PC-8001A computer. I have the computer itself and PC-8012A expansion chassis already. Additionally looking for anything else relating to this computer that you might have kicking around and be willing to part with. Including but not limited to the "Wedge", expansion unit cabling, expansion cards, etc. Note: I have seen the one floating periodically on eBay and am keeping a close eye on eBay in general for this unit so am looking for leads outside of that. If anyone has stuff for this computer, please contact me off-list. I'm near Philadelphia and willing to drive to avoid you having to pack/ship. Not against shipping stuff either. Thanks!! -Todd From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 19 17:41:52 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:41:52 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <02c601d13a9e$022ecb80$068c6280$@gmail.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <02c601d13a9e$022ecb80$068c6280$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <054a01d13ab6$d6978c50$83c6a4f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: 19 December 2015 20:44 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > I wonder if the voltage level detection thinks its out of spec, rather than the > over current parts. These PSUs afre exceedingly complex... > Yes, that is my suspicion, but, as I said in another reply, it looks like this involves tiny surface mount stuff. No idea how to test it, and reverse engineering the schematic is going to be tough, especially as I can't make out the markings or identify the device types, so even being able to measure the components is not going to be easy. Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 17:51:15 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 16:51:15 -0700 Subject: WD9000 Pascal Microengine floppy adapter (was Re: WD9000 Pascal microengine schematics available) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The firmware source code and Eagle files (schematic and PCB layout) are now on Github: https://github.com/brouhaha/wd900-fd-adapter The current Eagle files are rev. 2, which has minor changes from rev. 1: * kludge connector P5 pin 1 mark corrected, was next to pin 2 on rev. 1 board * Two DRC clearance violations corrected * Power LED added * Pullup resistor for PIC MCLR pin added (but not actually needed) No rev. 2 boards have been made. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Dec 19 19:46:27 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:46:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201512200146.UAA29870@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> But getting something in series to measure load is going to be >>> really awkward, [...] >> As in, you don't have any such thing to put in series, or you don't >> see a good way to get it in series? [...] > I think the suggestion was to put an ammeter between the PSU and the > backplane. Yes...but ammeters (for nontrivial currents) are generally just voltmeters across current-sense resistors, and it's the current-sense resistor that needs to carry the current and thus requires attention. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 21:30:37 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:30:37 -0700 Subject: Wood (was Re: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff) Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Was it the Processor Technology Sol that had oak strips on the sides? Walnut. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 21:57:00 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:57:00 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard Message-ID: Does anyone have a scan of the IEEE-696 (S-100) standard that has NOT been run through OCR to screw up the typography (and even some of the illustrations)? I'm *not* looking for the draft, only the final standard. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 19 22:04:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 20:04:01 -0800 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567628B1.8070800@sydex.com> On 12/19/2015 07:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the IEEE-696 (S-100) standard that has > NOT been run through OCR to screw up the typography (and even some of > the illustrations)? > > I'm *not* looking for the draft, only the final standard. > > Is this it? (1983) http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/IEEE%20696%20S-100%20Bus%20Specs.pdf --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 00:25:10 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 23:25:10 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <567628B1.8070800@sydex.com> References: <567628B1.8070800@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Is this it? (1983) > http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/IEEE%20696%20S-100%20Bus%20Specs.pdf That's the one that's been screwed up by OCR. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 20 01:04:07 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 07:04:07 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <201512200146.UAA29870@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <201512200146.UAA29870@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <057801d13af4$9eb86190$dc2924b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 20 December 2015 01:46 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > >>> But getting something in series to measure load is going to be > >>> really awkward, [...] > >> As in, you don't have any such thing to put in series, or you don't > >> see a good way to get it in series? [...] > > I think the suggestion was to put an ammeter between the PSU and the > > backplane. > > Yes...but ammeters (for nontrivial currents) are generally just voltmeters > across current-sense resistors, and it's the current-sense resistor that needs > to carry the current and thus requires attention. > The problem is just how to physically do it. But in any case I don't think it is necessary to do this now, as I have been able to reproduce the problem on the bench now. It looks like the 12V side starts up and then shuts down, sometimes after a few seconds, sometimes after a couple of minutes, sometimes it does not even start to output the right voltage. I am pretty sure that it is falsely detecting overcurrent. The problem is going to be finding and fixing the part that is not working, there are a lot of tiny surface mount components that seem to process the signal from the current sense resistor.... Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 18:34:03 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 19:34:03 -0500 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <5675F0D1.5050606@dunnington.plus.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <5675F0D1.5050606@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 19/12/2015 20:41, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a resistor >> between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid tube all >> my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite >> directions and any soldered joint just fails. >> >> Any usggestions? >> > > Are you trying to screw them into a tube? Could you instead push them in > and then fill the tube with epoxy or potting compound through a hole in the > side? > > Could you make the tube in two short lengths, with a left-hand thread > between them; screw the plug into one part and then screw the socket into > the other while also screwing the two parts of the tube together? > > Could you use a split (lengthways) tube, solder the resistor to the plug > and socket, and fit the tube on with epoxy? > > Or if it doesn't need to be absolutely rigid, mould some Sugru round the > parts instead of using the tube? > > -- > Pete > Bottom of this page? http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ I may not follow your meaning here. Can't you just leave patch connections loose as long as the ends of connection is secure? My Donner 3500 for example has required improvisation. http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/Donner-3500_voltage-test-plugs.JPG -- Bill From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 19 18:05:37 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:05:37 +0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5675F0D1.5050606@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/12/2015 20:41, Dave Wade wrote: > I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a resistor > between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid tube all > my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite > directions and any soldered joint just fails. > > Any usggestions? Are you trying to screw them into a tube? Could you instead push them in and then fill the tube with epoxy or potting compound through a hole in the side? Could you make the tube in two short lengths, with a left-hand thread between them; screw the plug into one part and then screw the socket into the other while also screwing the two parts of the tube together? Could you use a split (lengthways) tube, solder the resistor to the plug and socket, and fit the tube on with epoxy? Or if it doesn't need to be absolutely rigid, mould some Sugru round the parts instead of using the tube? -- Pete From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 18:58:25 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 00:58:25 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <5675F0D1.5050606@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <004601d13ac1$885bc5f0$991351d0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 20 December 2015 00:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > > On 19/12/2015 20:41, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >> I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a resistor > >> between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid tube all > >> my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite > >> directions and any soldered joint just fails. > >> > >> Any usggestions? > >> > > > > Are you trying to screw them into a tube? Could you instead push them > > in and then fill the tube with epoxy or potting compound through a > > hole in the side? I think this type of solution is the way its going but its not very neat compared with the ones in the link below. I was actually trying to use the sleeve that came with the plug and then push the socket in the end. > > > > Could you make the tube in two short lengths, with a left-hand thread > > between them; screw the plug into one part and then screw the socket > > into the other while also screwing the two parts of the tube together? > > I think I might manage using a longer tube and flexible hook up wire. > > Could you use a split (lengthways) tube, solder the resistor to the > > plug and socket, and fit the tube on with epoxy? > > That would work... > > Or if it doesn't need to be absolutely rigid, mould some Sugru round > > the parts instead of using the tube? > > Rigid is best as you need to fit a plug in the end and then plug it into the patch panel.. > > -- > > Pete > > > > > Bottom of this page? > http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ Those are the thing. How on earth are those made? Some kind of contact so its clamped together not soldered... > > I may not follow your meaning here. Can't you just leave patch connections > loose as long as the ends of connection is secure? My Donner 3500 for > example has required improvisation. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/donner/Donner-3500_voltage-test-plugs.JPG > -- The TR-10 has no input resistors in its OP Amps. You need to put them in the ends of the cables as needed. It?s a cludge but it makes converting an op amp to an integrator simpler... > Bill Dave From steven at malikoff.com Sat Dec 19 20:09:52 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:09:52 +1000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs From: "Dave Wade" Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Folks, > > I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any patch cables > and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, BUT the TR-10 comes > with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of the patch leads. These > have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or 100k resistor in between. I can't > figure out a way to easily fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm > plugs and sockets, and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and > mount them on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket > need to be twisted in opposite directions and any soldered joint just fails. > > Any usggestions? > > Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? > > Dave Wade > G4UGM > Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an original, and with a ruler included for scale? Steve. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 06:02:53 2015 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 13:02:53 +0100 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard Message-ID: On 20 December 2015 at 07:25, Eric Smith wrote: >> Is this it? (1983) >> http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/IEEE%20696%20S-100%20Bus%20Specs.pdf > > That's the one that's been screwed up by OCR. What about this one? Except for the front page and possibly the very beginning, it seems to be the same document, but different. If it's any better I'm not sure about, some pictures didn't do too well in the scan, apparently. http://www.imsai.net/download/IEEE_696_1983.pdf From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 19 17:02:52 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? Message-ID: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Is there anything like Appleworks 1.0 for the commodore 64? if so could you be kind enough to give me the name of the program? I have searched but have found nothing of any value. I just would like a checkbool ledger and a savings spreadsheet. From gerardcjat at free.fr Sun Dec 20 07:02:39 2015 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:02:39 +0100 Subject: KiCad Footprint ?? Message-ID: Speaking of KiCad .... Yesterday, I tried for the first time KiCad, and my first board design with it. The very first part I was looking for .... I was not able to locate it. Is it because I am a newbe or because this part does not exist yet, beeing "too old" ?? I was looking for : Card edge connector ( fingers print ) , any contact count, BUT pitch = 3.96 mm Any help ?? Thanks !! --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun Dec 20 08:48:08 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 08:48:08 -0600 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, December 19, 2015, Mike wrote: > Is there anything like Appleworks 1.0 for the commodore 64? if so could > you be kind enough to give me the name of the program? I have searched > but have found nothing of any value. I just would like a checkbool > ledger and a savings spreadsheet. > The first one that comes to mind is Magic Desk. It's primitive and, apparently, had some issues. http://toastytech.com/guis/magdesk.html I remember using that one. The interface is wicked slow. GEOS was also pretty well populated with various applications like the ones you seek. You'd need a mouse for hardware and, unfortunately, I've not had an easy time getting it to work well in emulation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) GEOS was fun, fun to play with. You can look at the software produced by Batteries Included. They did produce an integrated suite but not with all the modules you seek. BI produced tons of productivity software for the platform. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteries_Included_(company) From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 08:53:57 2015 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 09:53:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gotek floppy emulator w/ HxC firmware Message-ID: Is anyone using this combination? I'm having problems getting it to work reliably on a soft-sector controller in my Heath H89 and their forum is essentially dead. -- From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 11:43:50 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:43:50 -0500 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > GEOS was also pretty well populated with various applications like the ones > you seek. You'd need a mouse for hardware and, unfortunately, I've not had > an easy time getting it to work well in emulation. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) > > GEOS was fun, fun to play with. > > GEOCalc for the 64, assuming that exists, I have only used the C-128 version. There is also a program by Handic called CalcResult that may have a 64 version, I have only used the B-128 version. -- Bill From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 11:46:20 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 17:46:20 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > steven at malikoff.com > Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > From: "Dave Wade" > Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Folks, > > > > I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any patch > > cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, BUT the > > TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of the > > patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or 100k > > resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily fabricate > > replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a > > resistor between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid > > tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite > directions and any soldered joint just fails. > > > > Any usggestions? > > > > Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? > > > > Dave Wade > > G4UGM > > > > Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an original, and > with a ruler included for scale? > I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the items:- http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm socket in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. Dave > Steve. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Sun Dec 20 11:54:42 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:54:42 -0600 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: Again not an integrated suite but there was also Multiplan, a spreadsheet for the C64 from Microsoft. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 12:11:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:11:01 -0800 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 04:02 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 20 December 2015 at 07:25, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Is this it? (1983) >>> http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/IEEE%20696%20S-100%20Bus%20Specs.pdf >> >> >>> That's the one that's been screwed up by OCR. > > What about this one? Except for the front page and possibly the very > beginning, it seems to be the same document, but different. If it's > any better I'm not sure about, some pictures didn't do too well in > the scan, apparently. > http://www.imsai.net/download/IEEE_696_1983.pdf There's another one here also, but I assume it's also an OCR victim: http://www.z80.eu/dos65/DOS-65_IEEE_Standard_696_Guide.pdf --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 13:12:27 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:12:27 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Has same OCR problems. See figure 16 on page 38. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 13:13:56 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:13:56 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's another one here also, but I assume it's also an OCR victim: > http://www.z80.eu/dos65/DOS-65_IEEE_Standard_696_Guide.pdf That's interesting, and thanks for pointing it out, but it isn't the standard. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 13:28:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:28:20 -0800 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 11:13 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> There's another one here also, but I assume it's also an OCR >> victim: http://www.z80.eu/dos65/DOS-65_IEEE_Standard_696_Guide.pdf > > That's interesting, and thanks for pointing it out, but it isn't the > standard. I hate to mention it, but... Does IEEE consider this to be copyrighted material? If so, 1983+95 = 2078 when it'll be public domain, unless you count it as a "corporate" work, in which case, it'll be available in the 22nd century. Have you contacted the folks at IEEE for a copy? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 13:35:13 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:35:13 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 12:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does IEEE consider this to be copyrighted material? Of course they do. > Have you contacted the folks at IEEE for a copy? It's withdrawn, so IEEE doesn't sell it. Most likely IHS Global Engineering Documents does. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that that's not what I was asking. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 14:04:41 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 13:04:41 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I asked: > Does anyone have a scan of the IEEE-696 (S-100) standard that has NOT > been run through OCR The problem has been solved. Thanks! From radiotest at juno.com Sun Dec 20 14:13:37 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:13:37 -0500 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151220151251.03db0030@juno.com> At 03:04 PM 12/20/2015, Eric Smith wrote: >The problem has been solved. Is the solution available online? Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 14:18:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 13:18:54 -0700 Subject: What did computers without screens do? In-Reply-To: References: <20151214181133.3F55A18C0C0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <566F0BCD.10806@sydex.com> <88C8B0E4-F107-4E04-83BB-7A78607C83BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 1:16 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Short version is, even the cheap and simple 555 has been replaced in > many products with a cheap-as-or-cheaper-than microcontroller, not > because it's simpler, but because it allows for greater flexibility > and reduces the overall product cost. I got a bit of somewhat tongue-in-cheek flack recently over using a PIC for my four-phase clock generator, where dedicated logic would do. https://github.com/brouhaha/4phaseclk I was only planning to build one or two instances of the circuit, so it wasn't particularly cost-sensitive, but still, it seemed like using a PIC was both the simplest and least expensive solution. A TI SN74LS362/TIM9904 would have done the job, but I don't have any on hand, and they're now relatively expensive and hard to get. (Anyone have one or two pieces spare?) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 20 14:40:33 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:40:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201512202040.PAA15027@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If so, 1983+95 = 2078 when it'll be public domain, Jurisdiction-dependent. Not everywhere is crazy enough to follow the USA's disney clause (though the Berne Convention does have some possibly-relevant reciprocal recognition clauses). What little I've been able to find on this in a few minutes indicates that "author's lifetime + 70" is more common than anything + 95. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 14:57:04 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 13:57:04 -0700 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <201512202040.PAA15027@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> <201512202040.PAA15027@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 1:40 PM, Mouse wrote: > What little I've been able to find on this in a few minutes indicates > that "author's lifetime + 70" is more common than anything + 95. In some (many?) jurisdictions that use author's lifetime + 70, for works of "corporate" authorship the term is 95 years from creation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 15:03:55 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 13:03:55 -0800 Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: <201512202040.PAA15027@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5676EF35.1090907@sydex.com> <56770154.9080903@sydex.com> <201512202040.PAA15027@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <567717BB.2040000@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 12:40 PM, Mouse wrote: >> If so, 1983+95 = 2078 when it'll be public domain, > > Jurisdiction-dependent. Not everywhere is crazy enough to follow > the USA's disney clause (though the Berne Convention does have some > possibly-relevant reciprocal recognition clauses). > > What little I've been able to find on this in a few minutes > indicates that "author's lifetime + 70" is more common than anything > + 95. Regardless, it's not useful in (most) of our lifetimes--and I suspect that Mickey will get another copyright extension anyway. At any rate, I'm relieved that Eric found what he needed. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 15:06:25 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:06:25 +0100 Subject: Wood (was Re: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 20 December 2015 at 04:30, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Was it the Processor Technology Sol that had oak strips on the sides? > > Walnut. Are you sure it wasn't rosewood? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) ;-) From steven at malikoff.com Sun Dec 20 16:23:21 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:23:21 +1000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs From: "Dave Wade" Date: Mon, December 21, 2015 3:46 am To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> steven at malikoff.com >> Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- >> Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> From: "Dave Wade" >> Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> > Folks, >> > >> > I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any patch >> > cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, BUT the >> > TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of the >> > patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or 100k >> > resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily fabricate >> > replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, and solder a >> > resistor between them, but when I try and mount them on a short rigid >> > tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket need to be twisted in opposite >> directions and any soldered joint just fails. >> > >> > Any usggestions? >> > >> > Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? >> > >> > Dave Wade >> > G4UGM >> > >> >> Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an original, and >> with a ruler included for scale? >> > > I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the items:- > > http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ > > and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm socket in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. > > Dave Ah, ok, now I get it. Could you use two of the banana jack barrels, cut in half (machine them would be better) so that they can be contrarotated, then superglue or solvent glue the seam when tightened against eachother? Steve. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 20 16:32:12 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 17:32:12 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 19, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > ... > I can't tell if this is a Kelvin connected one or not, although I suspect it > probably is. You can see a picture with two here: http://1drv.ms/1micVN7. > These are from a second board in the PSU, but they look identical to the one > on the problem board. It would appear to have 4 connections, but doesn't > look anything like the only Kelvin connected one I could find. It does look like a Kelvin hookup. Yes, usually they are two fat and two skinny connections, but so long as two connections carry the current while the other two do not, it's valid. paul From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:35:41 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 17:35:41 -0500 Subject: Wood (was Re: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff) References: Message-ID: <2100E434A51B43448F3CB130F065C18E@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 4:06 PM On 20 December 2015 at 04:30, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Was it the Processor Technology Sol that had oak strips on the sides? > > Walnut. Are you sure it wasn't rosewood? ----------- Polished to a satin sheen with whale oil of course... ;-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:41:37 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 17:41:37 -0500 Subject: Wood (was Re: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff) In-Reply-To: <2100E434A51B43448F3CB130F065C18E@310e2> References: <2100E434A51B43448F3CB130F065C18E@310e2> Message-ID: > Are you sure it wasn't rosewood? > > ----------- > > Polished to a satin sheen with whale oil of course... > > ;-) I am sorry, the expiration date on this rosewood/whaileoil joke has passed. -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:43:51 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:43:51 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > steven at malikoff.com > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > From: "Dave Wade" > Date: Mon, December 21, 2015 3:46 am > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> steven at malikoff.com > >> Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >> > >> > >> ---------------------------- Original Message > >> ---------------------------- > >> Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >> From: "Dave Wade" > >> Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am > >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ----- > >> > >> > Folks, > >> > > >> > I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any > >> > patch cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, > >> > BUT the > >> > TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of > >> > the patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or > >> > 100k resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily > >> > fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, > >> > and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and mount them > >> > on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket need > >> > to be twisted in opposite > >> directions and any soldered joint just fails. > >> > > >> > Any usggestions? > >> > > >> > Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? > >> > > >> > Dave Wade > >> > G4UGM > >> > > >> > >> Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an > >> original, and with a ruler included for scale? > >> > > > > I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the items:- > > > > http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ > > > > and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part > containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm socket > in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. > > > > Dave > > Ah, ok, now I get it. Could you use two of the banana jack barrels, cut in half > (machine them would be better) so that they can be contrarotated, then > superglue or solvent glue the seam when tightened against eachother? If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap fill. I am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... > > Steve. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 16:55:26 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:55:26 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > steven at malikoff.com > > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap fill. > I am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... > > Sacrifice one: Cut the first one, and then cut a second one lower down so that the top on the second one is the correct length to glue onto the first. -- Charles From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 20 17:11:52 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:11:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wood (was Re: IBM Mainframe terminal stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <2100E434A51B43448F3CB130F065C18E@310e2> Message-ID: >> Are you sure it wasn't rosewood? >> Polished to a satin sheen with [WELL} whale oil of course... >> ;-) On Sun, 20 Dec 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > I am sorry, the expiration date on this rosewood/whaileoil joke has passed. lifetime + 95 ? Derivative works? The machinewas certainly a corporate work, but the joke was individual(s) authorship From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 17:20:06 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:20:06 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> > steven at malikoff.com >> > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > >> > Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> >> If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap >> fill. I am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... >> >> Sacrifice one: Cut the first one, and then cut a second one lower down so > that the top on the second one is the correct length to glue onto the first. > > Or, rather then cutting it, remove the inside threads on the shell, and glue it back on to the plug, rather than screwing it on. -- Charles From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 20 17:31:02 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:31:02 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > On Dec 19, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > ... > > I can't tell if this is a Kelvin connected one or not, although I > > suspect it probably is. You can see a picture with two here: > http://1drv.ms/1micVN7. > > These are from a second board in the PSU, but they look identical to > > the one on the problem board. It would appear to have 4 connections, > > but doesn't look anything like the only Kelvin connected one I could find. > > It does look like a Kelvin hookup. Yes, usually they are two fat and two > skinny connections, but so long as two connections carry the current while > the other two do not, it's valid. > Thanks Paul, I have been assuming that it is Kelvin connected for the time being. I have no idea if the resistor is faulty or if the fault is in the detection logic. I am not entirely sure how to test it, and if it is faulty then finding a replacement may be hard. If it is the detection logic, then I am really in trouble because it is all SMD stuff, the board it is on appears to have multiple layers and I can barely make out the markings on the components, so I can't identify their type (resistor or capacitor) or value, and I have never desoldered/resoldered SMD before. There is an op amp and a comparator, which are easily identifiable, but there also appear to be some transistors, and although I can see the markings "A4H" I have been unable to identify what type they are, what the pinout is or if they are even transistors at all (but I think they must be). Pictures of the logic board here: http://1drv.ms/1QT7641. I also noticed another very low value resistor, 0.01R, which looks far more conventional (not kelvin connected for sure, it looks just like any ordinary resistor, only a bit chunkier), but sadly, it seems to measure fine using my ESR/Low Ohms meter, when measured in circuit. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 18:10:31 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 16:10:31 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 03:20 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > Or, rather then cutting it, remove the inside threads on the shell, > and glue it back on to the plug, rather than screwing it on. I don't have any to show you, but I do remember that some of these banana plugs used an un-threaded barrel, employing a small (head-less) screw on the side that threaded into the top of the plug fixture. In the long run, probably better, as they could not be unscrewed by twisting on the barrel. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 19:00:52 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 01:00:52 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000501d13b8b$0a86e2c0$1f94a840$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > Anthony > Sent: 20 December 2015 23:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Charles Anthony > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Dave Wade > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> > steven at malikoff.com > >> > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 > >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > > >> > Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >> > >> If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap > >> fill. I am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... > >> > >> Sacrifice one: Cut the first one, and then cut a second one lower > >> down so > > that the top on the second one is the correct length to glue onto the first. > > > > > Or, rather then cutting it, remove the inside threads on the shell, and glue it > back on to the plug, rather than screwing it on. That?s about the best method, but there is not much room for extra lead to push back into the plug... I really wonder how these were made originally they look so neat... > > -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 21:21:44 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 19:21:44 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56777048.1050607@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 04:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't have any to show you, but I do remember that some of these > banana plugs used an un-threaded barrel, employing a small > (head-less) screw on the side that threaded into the top of the plug > fixture. In the long run, probably better, as they could not be > unscrewed by twisting on the barrel. Here's an example from Tenna: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1656887.pdf --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 21:49:44 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 22:49:44 -0500 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> <56777048.1050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9F098A3CA88A40158A52B01922682B2A@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 10:21 PM Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > On 12/20/2015 04:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I don't have any to show you, but I do remember that some of these >> banana plugs used an un-threaded barrel, employing a small >> (head-less) screw on the side that threaded into the top of the plug >> fixture. In the long run, probably better, as they could not be >> unscrewed by twisting on the barrel. > > > Here's an example from Tenna: > > http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1656887.pdf > > --Chuck And then epoxy something like this into the other end (after connecting the resistor of course ;-): http://www.showmecables.com/product/banana-jack-panel-mount-plastic-red.aspx Use a piece of tubing if it's not a good fit or too short. Make sure they're the right size; lots to choose from on eBay and elsewhere. m From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 22:25:34 2015 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 20:25:34 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 4:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/20/2015 03:20 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > Or, rather then cutting it, remove the inside threads on the shell, >> and glue it back on to the plug, rather than screwing it on. >> > > I don't have any to show you, but I do remember that some of these banana > plugs used an un-threaded barrel, employing a small (head-less) screw on > the side that threaded into the top of the plug fixture. In the long run, > probably better, as they could not be unscrewed by twisting on the barrel. > > It also occurs to me that for a patch cable: a measured length of some kind of resistive wire between two plugs rather than a resistor? -- Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 20 22:46:17 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 20:46:17 -0800 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <56774377.8030704@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56778419.4020603@sydex.com> On 12/20/2015 08:25 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > It also occurs to me that for a patch cable: a measured length of > some kind of resistive wire between two plugs rather than a > resistor? I don't think so. Vacuum tubes (or valves if you will) are high-impedance devices. Those resistors are likely in the tens and hundreds of kilohms. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Dec 20 23:16:45 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:16:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <000501d13b8b$0a86e2c0$1f94a840$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <000501d13b8b$0a86e2c0$1f94a840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: > On Sun, 20 Dec 2015, Charles Anthony wrote: > >> Or, rather then cutting it, remove the inside threads on the shell, and >> glue it back on to the plug, rather than screwing it on. > > That?s about the best method, but there is not much room for extra lead > to push back into the plug... > > I really wonder how these were made originally they look so neat... One of the plugs in the photo looks like it might have a small roll pin or setscrew holding it together. The photographer didn't have it directly facing the camera and may have intentionally not photographed that side of the plugs for aesthetic reasons. From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 20 10:03:43 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 08:03:43 -0800 Subject: KiCad Footprint ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 20, 2015, at 05:02, GerardCJAT wrote: > > Yesterday, I tried for the first time KiCad, and my first board design with it. > The very first part I was looking for .... I was not able to locate it. > Is it because I am a newbe or because this part does not exist yet, beeing "too old" ?? It's normal to need to create footprints for new PCB designs. The public KiCad libraries have a lot of parts in them, but they're still a tiny subset of all of the footprints that exist. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From kfergason at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 14:40:37 2015 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:40:37 -0600 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: i used a product called Trio back in the day. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 20, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > > Again not an integrated suite but there was also Multiplan, a spreadsheet > for the C64 from Microsoft. > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Dec 20 19:29:52 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 17:29:52 -0800 Subject: KiCad Footprint ?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56775610.9060602@alum.mit.edu> On 12/20/2015 5:02 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: > Speaking of KiCad .... > Yesterday, I tried for the first time KiCad, and my first board design with it. > The very first part I was looking for .... I was not able to locate it. > Is it because I am a newbe or because this part does not exist yet, beeing "too old" ?? > I was looking for : > > Card edge connector ( fingers print ) , any contact count, BUT pitch = 3.96 mm > > Any help ?? Thanks !! > > --- > L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > That is pretty obscure, it is not like a standard IC footprint or connector. Better to learn now how to create your own footprints in the KiCAD symbol editor. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 02:39:42 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 01:39:42 -0700 Subject: KiCad Footprint ?? In-Reply-To: <56775610.9060602@alum.mit.edu> References: <56775610.9060602@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 6:29 PM, Don North wrote: > On 12/20/2015 5:02 AM, GerardCJAT wrote: >> Speaking of KiCad .... >> Card edge connector ( fingers print ) , any contact count, BUT pitch = >> 3.96 mm > That is pretty obscure, it is not like a standard IC footprint or connector. That absolutely is a standard connector. It's more commonly referenced as a .156 inch pitch edge connector. > Better to learn now how to create your own footprints in the KiCAD symbol > editor. Good advice. I use Eagle and I almost always have to create or modify the symbols and packages I need. From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Dec 21 02:50:31 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:50:31 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > > Koning > > Sent: 20 December 2015 22:32 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2015, at 4:05 PM, Robert Jarratt > > > wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > I can't tell if this is a Kelvin connected one or not, although I > > > suspect it probably is. You can see a picture with two here: > > http://1drv.ms/1micVN7. > > > These are from a second board in the PSU, but they look identical to > > > the one on the problem board. It would appear to have 4 connections, > > > but doesn't look anything like the only Kelvin connected one I could > find. > > > > It does look like a Kelvin hookup. Yes, usually they are two fat and two > > skinny connections, but so long as two connections carry the current while > > the other two do not, it's valid. > > > > Thanks Paul, I have been assuming that it is Kelvin connected for the time > being. > > I have no idea if the resistor is faulty or if the fault is in the detection > logic. I am not entirely sure how to test it, and if it is faulty then > finding a replacement may be hard. If it is the detection logic, then I am > really in trouble because it is all SMD stuff, the board it is on appears to > have multiple layers and I can barely make out the markings on the > components, so I can't identify their type (resistor or capacitor) or value, > and I have never desoldered/resoldered SMD before. There is an op amp and a > comparator, which are easily identifiable, but there also appear to be some > transistors, and although I can see the markings "A4H" I have been unable to > identify what type they are, what the pinout is or if they are even > transistors at all (but I think they must be). Pictures of the logic board > here: http://1drv.ms/1QT7641. > > I also noticed another very low value resistor, 0.01R, which looks far more > conventional (not kelvin connected for sure, it looks just like any ordinary > resistor, only a bit chunkier), but sadly, it seems to measure fine using my > ESR/Low Ohms meter, when measured in circuit. > > Regards > > Rob Just resolder the SMD Caps, they sometimes get a loose pad. You see if that happened while resoldering. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ed at groenenberg.net Mon Dec 21 01:15:32 2015 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:15:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCR 376 card punch Message-ID: <41513.81.30.38.129.1450682132.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> So I saw this NCR376 card punch on the German Ebay and placed a bid, getting it for Eur 1.50 (approx $1.75). Last Saturday I picked it up near Frankfurt and brought it back home and came with a small user manual (in German), 2 sheets of diagrams (need to find a magnifier to read it properly) and about 500 unused cards. There are a few small issues, the rubber rollers of the feeder are melted, but apparently can be replaced using some heat shrink tube, the rubber layer seems to be very thin. Another issue are the transport rollers which moves the card from right to left where the hopper is. Those are also melted but again seem to be repairable. Last issue is that when I press some keys on the keyboard, the card does not advance, only some clicking noises from the backplane is heard. The backplane consists of s series of relays on a few cards, and a number of capacitors on a few other cards. (Yes, this card punch is driven by a series of relays). This unit is OEM-ed from JUKI (Juki-1300), a Japanese company who made it. Although the machine is small (about 100 x 100 x 45 cm) is weights 100Kg. Anybody know a source for other manuals of this machine? Googling for it did not return much for it. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. BTC : 1J5fajt8ptyZ2V1YURj3YJZhe5j3fJVSHN LTC : LP2WuEmYPbpWUBqMFGJfdm7pdHEW7fKvDz From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 03:08:42 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:08:42 +0100 Subject: DEC corporate cab side panel. Message-ID: I have one side panel for a DEC corporate cabinet. It should fit VAX-11/780 or similar cabinets. It is in good shape. Anyone need one? It is in Stockholm, Sweden. Also has some other parts for the cabinet, like wheels and other steel parts. /Mattis From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 21 03:14:29 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:14:29 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 21 December 2015 08:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > > > > Just resolder the SMD Caps, they sometimes get a loose pad. > You see if that happened while resoldering. > Shouldn't I be able to detect a loose component by pushing on it with a small screwdriver or something? I suspect the caps are the darker coloured (orange) ones, but I am not sure, is that right? Thanks Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 03:26:16 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 02:26:16 -0700 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) Message-ID: The DEC LSI-11, Western Digital WD16 (as used in the Alpha Micro AM100), and Western Digital Pascal Microengine use variations of the same chipset, called CP1600 for the LSI-11 and WD16, and WD9000 for the Pacal Microengine. The chipset consists of a control chip, a data path chip, and two to four microcode ROMs, of 512 words of 22 bits each, known as "Microms". I built an apparatus on a breadboard to dump the contents of Microms, using a PIC and a quad gate driver to produce the four-phase 12V clock, three 74HCT163 four-bit counters and two 74HCT245 buffers to drive the address onto the microinstruction bus, and a 74HCT4050 and 74HCT04 to level shift the MOS phase 2 clock back to 5V and invert it, to enable the 74HCT245 buffers. Photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/albums/72157662054690240 The apparatus cycles through the entire 2 kibiword address space continuously. An HP 16701A logic analyzer with 16557D state/timing card is attached to capture the addresses and data. Because the microinstruction bus is active low, the addresses are driven in reverse sequence, and the microinstructions captured on the logic analyzer are inverted. So far I have dumped the following LSI-11 Microms: 3010D, DEC P/N 23-001B5 (also designated CP1631-10) - addr 0x000-0x1ff 3007D, DEC P/N 23-002B5 (also designated CP1631-07) - addr 0x200-0x3ff So far I have dumped the following Pascal Microengine Microms: WD2171-10 - addr 0x000-0x1ff WD2171-12 - addr 0x200-0x3ff WD2171-13 - addr 0x400-0x5ff WD2171-14 - addr 0x000-0x1ff WD2171-15 - addr 0x200-0x3ff WD2171-17 - addr 0x400-0x5ff WD2171-18 - addr 0x400-0x5ff There exists at least one other Pascal Microengine Microm which I don't have, the WD2171-16. I expect that it probably occupies addr 0x400-0x5ff. I have not yet dumped the WD16 Microms as I do not have an AM100 CPU board at hand. My next challenge is exporting the data from the 16701A to anything else. The 16701A used to work fine on my Ethernet, but for mysterious reasons it now claims that the network can't be accessed, despite that plugging a laptop into the same Ethernet cable works fine. I'll need to write a small Python script to post-process the output, for use with my disassembler (also in Python). Note that dumping the Microm contents is only part of the problem; the control chip also contains PLAs that can force microcode jumps under various conditions despite there being no corresponding jump instruction in the Microms. This is used for macroinstruction decode, and possibly for other purposes. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 21 04:11:31 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 02:11:31 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-21, at 1:14 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm > Tiffe >> Sent: 21 December 2015 08:51 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? >> >> Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >> Just resolder the SMD Caps, they sometimes get a loose pad. >> You see if that happened while resoldering. >> > > Shouldn't I be able to detect a loose component by pushing on it with a > small screwdriver or something? I suspect the caps are the darker coloured > (orange) ones, but I am not sure, is that right? The lighter-beige ones, some of which are wider, are likely caps, for example the one beside the 34072 dual op amp looks to be a simple power decoupling cap (across the IC power pins). The reddish-brown units with 4-digit numbers are resistors: 3 sig figs & zeroes multiplier, e.g. 1002 = 10,000 ohms, 1330 = 133 ohms, 1181 = 1180 ohms. The unmarked(?) 'redder' ones I expect are resistors, for example the one above the "di" in "digital" looks like the feedback gain control resistor for the op amp, although in other places that would make 4 resistors in parallel which is unusual. Resistors can generally be identified with a multimeter, if you can come up with the same value when swapping the multimeter leads (polarity) and stepping through the multimeter ohm ranges you've probably got the resistance - making the multiple measurements to identify non-linear responses to eliminate conductivity readings from semiconductor junctions. There looks to be two very similar networks around the two op amps in the 34072. It wouldn't really be that difficult a board to RE, although it does look like some poking around with a multimeter for continuity will be necessary to track internal traces, but they look to be relatively limited in number. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 21 05:10:50 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:10:50 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: 21 December 2015 10:12 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > The lighter-beige ones, some of which are wider, are likely caps, for example > the one beside the 34072 dual op amp looks to be a simple power decoupling > cap (across the IC power pins). > The reddish-brown units with 4-digit numbers are resistors: 3 sig figs & > zeroes multiplier, e.g. 1002 = 10,000 ohms, 1330 = 133 ohms, 1181 = 1180 > ohms. > The unmarked(?) 'redder' ones I expect are resistors, for example the one > above the "di" in "digital" looks like the feedback gain control resistor for the > op amp, although in other places that would make 4 resistors in parallel which > is unusual. > Resistors can generally be identified with a multimeter, if you can come up > with the same value when swapping the multimeter leads (polarity) and > stepping through the multimeter ohm ranges you've probably got the > resistance - making the multiple measurements to identify non-linear > responses to eliminate conductivity readings from semiconductor junctions. > > There looks to be two very similar networks around the two op amps in the > 34072. It wouldn't really be that difficult a board to RE, although it does look > like some poking around with a multimeter for continuity will be necessary to > track internal traces, but they look to be relatively limited in number. Many thanks. My first measurements with a multimeter had suggested to me that the darker ones were the caps. Thanks for putting me right before getting too far with the reverse engineering. The multi-layers mean I won't necessarily know where there is a connection, I can deduce that there is one where a through hole appears to go nowhere, but who knows what other connections I might miss. Any idea what an A4H and a 2FH are? They must be some kind of transistor, but I am not sure what kind. Regards Rob From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:40:19 2015 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 13:40:19 +0000 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? Message-ID: Having typed that subject line I'm changing my attitude slightly: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-OF-FEW-REMAINING-1ST-AVAILABLE-MICE-IN-THE-WORLD-1983-APPLE-LISA-MOUSE-/172035907806?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276 Overblown salesmanship aside, technically I suppose they're right. Even given Doug Engelbart's introduction in 1964 the mouse wasn't a massive commercial success by 1983 was it. Still a lot of cash though, and when I bought my Lisa in 2005 it came with that rodent so I'll put it alongside my little collection of VSXXX workstation mice as WOW*R at RE*L@@K* items :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:55:34 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:55:34 -0500 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 8:40 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Having typed that subject line I'm changing my attitude slightly: > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-OF-FEW-REMAINING-1ST-AVAILABLE-MICE-IN-THE-WORLD-1983-APPLE-LISA-MOUSE-/172035907806?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276 > > Overblown salesmanship aside, technically I suppose they're right. Even > given Doug Engelbart's introduction in 1964 the mouse wasn't a massive > commercial success by 1983 was it. > > Still a lot of cash though, and when I bought my Lisa in 2005 it came with > that rodent so I'll put it alongside my little collection of VSXXX > workstation mice as WOW*R at RE*L@@K* items :) > > -- > > Believe it or not a Lisa mouse simlar to this has sold for even more. Crazy. -- Bill From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 07:58:38 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 07:58:38 -0600 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5678058E.90107@gmail.com> On 12/21/2015 07:40 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Having typed that subject line I'm changing my attitude slightly Can someone ask if those are Steve Jobs' dead skin cells still stuck to the front pads? From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 09:08:46 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 07:08:46 -0800 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:26 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > My next challenge is exporting the data from the 16701A to anything > else. The 16701A used to work fine on my Ethernet, but for mysterious > reasons it now claims that the network can't be accessed, despite that > plugging a laptop into the same Ethernet cable works fine. > I think you meant 16702A here as the 16701A is the expansion mainframe. Assuming you are using 10BT for the network connection, do you have the terminator cap installed on the 10B2 BNC jack? I think some things don't work right with the 16700A/16702A network without that terminator cap installed. From isking at uw.edu Mon Dec 21 10:40:18 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 08:40:18 -0800 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: <5678058E.90107@gmail.com> References: <5678058E.90107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 5:58 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 12/21/2015 07:40 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Having typed that subject line I'm changing my attitude slightly >> > > Can someone ask if those are Steve Jobs' dead skin cells still stuck to > the front pads? > > > > Two words: Xerox Alto. It was never a "massive commercial success" but then, it wasn't designed or intended to be such. But it incorporated a mouse ten years before the Lisa's introduction. There were things you just couldn't do without the mouse, either (for example, using the Neptune file manager, or the all-important task of playing pool). -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 21 10:48:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:48:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) Message-ID: <20151221164832.A74A118C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > So far I have dumped the following LSI-11 Microms: > > 3010D, DEC P/N 23-001B5 (also designated CP1631-10) - addr 0x000-0x1ff > 3007D, DEC P/N 23-002B5 (also designated CP1631-07) - addr 0x200-0x3ff Excellent work! I was going to point out that there is another uROM (KEV11) for the LSI-11, for the EIS/FIS, and also that there is some variation in the numbers of the uROM chips, but along the way, I ran into a puzzle. DEC documentation differs on the location of the two uROM's in the LSI-11/2 (KD11-HA, M7270): the 'Microcomputer Products Handbook' gives the order (from the handle end) as KEV11, uROM 1, uROM 0, Control, Data Path; the print set for the KD11-HA gives KEV11, Control, uROM 1, uROM 0, Data Path! >From which I conclude that either: i) one of the documents, perhaps the Handbook, is wrong, or ii) the 'Control' chip must also be a uROM, and that there is some variation in how the 3 chips can be plugged in? Here is more data from a couple of boards I have access to (from the handle end): - 2007C 23-002C4, 3010A 23-001B5, 3007D 23-002B5 - 2007C 23-002C4, 3010D 23-001B5, 3007D 23-007B5 - 2007C 23-003C4, 3010D 23-008B5, 3007D 23-007B5 Anyone know what's up here? Getting back to the KEV11, the one I have seen is a 3015 23-003B5. > the control chip also contains PLAs that can force microcode jumps under > various conditions despite there being no corresponding jump instruction in > the Microms. Hmm. Any idea/way to read them out? Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 21 11:00:59 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:00:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) Message-ID: <20151221170059.A731B18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > DEC documentation differs on the location of the two uROM's in the > LSI-11/2 (KD11-HA, M7270): the 'Microcomputer Products Handbook' gives > the order (from the handle end) as KEV11, uROM 1, uROM 0, Control, Data > Path ... > From which I conclude that either: i) one of the documents, perhaps the > Handbook, is wrong, or ii) the 'Control' chip must also be a uROM, and > that there is some variation in how the 3 chips can be plugged in? > Anyone know what's up here? To answer my own post, I looked at the prints (should have done this before I posted, sigh), and there is no way it can be ii). The Control chip has a bunch of discrete signals on pins where the uROM's have micro-instruction bus pins. So there's no way you can swap them around. So the 'Microcomputer Products Handbook' diagram (pg. C-18) has to be wrong. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 12:23:01 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:23:01 -0700 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > I think you meant 16702A here as the 16701A is the expansion > mainframe. You're correct. 16702A. > Assuming you are using 10BT for the network connection, do > you have the terminator cap installed on the 10B2 BNC jack? I think > some things don't work right with the 16700A/16702A network without > that terminator cap installed. Thanks for the suggestion! There's a black cap over the 10base2 connector, which apparently has never been removed. I just removed it, with surprising difficulty. I'll scrounge a terminator and try again, though it wasn't necessary the last time I used the 16702A on the Ethernet. As HP-UX boots, it says something to the effect that the network was disabled on the previous boot, but will be enabled. However, the logic analyzer software says something to the effect that the network interface isn't available, and the controls to change the network settings are all greyed out. It occurred to me that the analyzer might not successfully autonegotiate on a port on a 1000baseT switch, so it's now plugged into a 100baseT switch instead, but not working any better. I don't have a 10baseT switch or hub at hand to try. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 12:34:58 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:34:58 -0700 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: <20151221164832.A74A118C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151221164832.A74A118C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I was going to point out that there is another uROM (KEV11) for the LSI-11, > for the EIS/FIS, and also that there is some variation in the numbers of > the uROM chips, but along the way, I ran into a puzzle. > - 2007C 23-003C4, 3010D 23-008B5, 3007D 23-007B5 The 23-007B5 and 23-008B5 apparently are multiple Microm variants for the base instruction set. GIven that the WD numbers are still 3007D and 3010D, I'd expect these to be only packaging or minor electrical variants, but it would still be nice to read a set for verification. There are also two part numbers for hybrid Microms, with two Microms packaged on one DIP carrier, DEC P/N 23-002B6 or 23-003B6. > ii) the 'Control' chip must also be a uROM, and that > there is some variation in how the 3 chips can be plugged in? The control chip and data chip are not Microms, and MUST be plugged into the correct socket. The Microms all have the same pinout, and are wired completely in parallel, so they can be interchanged. In addition to the normal > Getting back to the KEV11, the one I have seen is a 3015 23-003B5. There are a number of variants. That is a KEV11-A EIS/FIS, suitable for the M7270 quad module etch revisions E and F, and the M7264 dual. Another version of the KEV11-A EIS/FIS, suitable for the M7270 quad module etch revisions C and D, is the 23-091A5. I don't know the WD part number. The KEV11-B provides EIS without FIS, suitable for the M7270 quad module etch revisions C and D, 23-090A5. I don't know the WD part number. The KEV11-C provides a subset of the CIS commercial instruction set, sometimes known as DIS (DIBOL instruction set), using two Microms, which are 23-004B5 and 23-005B5. I don't know the WD part numbers. I suspect there is probably also a hybrid (single DIP carrier) version of the KEV11-C, but I don't know the part number. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 21 14:18:00 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:18:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) Message-ID: <20151221201800.E952018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > The control chip and data chip are not Microms, and MUST be plugged > into the correct socket. Yeah, as you saw, I eventually figured that out. In part, along with the bad diagram, I was thrown by a combo of the fact that i) the DEC part numbers for the control chip started with 23- (which seems to be a ROM part indicator), unlike the data chip, which as a 21-1; and second, the control chip is 23-002C4/23-003C4, which was so close to uROM numbers like 23-002B5 and 23-003B3, it sounded like they were all uROM parts. > There are a number of variants. Thanks for all the additional data. I'll add it all to the LSI-11 page on the he Computer History Wiki (seems as good a place as any to accumulate it). Noel From spereira1952 at comcast.net Mon Dec 21 12:26:49 2015 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (spereira1952 at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:26:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: scan of IEEE-696 standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <246454015.4392123.1450722409066.JavaMail.zimbra@comcast.net> Here is another scan from a different location: http://www.imsai.net/download/IEEE_696_1983.pdf I hope this may help. smp ----- Original Message ----- From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 14:54:22 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:54:22 -0600 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 7:40 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Having typed that subject line I'm changing my attitude slightly: > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ONE-OF-FEW-REMAINING-1ST-AVAILABLE-MICE-IN-THE-WORLD-1983-APPLE-LISA-MOUSE-/172035907806?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276 That is an odd connector. I haven't seen the original Lisa mouse in an auction before. I always seem to see the Mac style instead. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 21 16:33:26 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:33:26 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-21, at 3:10 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent >> Hilpert >> Sent: 21 December 2015 10:12 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? >> >> The lighter-beige ones, some of which are wider, are likely caps, for > example >> the one beside the 34072 dual op amp looks to be a simple power decoupling >> cap (across the IC power pins). >> The reddish-brown units with 4-digit numbers are resistors: 3 sig figs & >> zeroes multiplier, e.g. 1002 = 10,000 ohms, 1330 = 133 ohms, 1181 = 1180 >> ohms. >> The unmarked(?) 'redder' ones I expect are resistors, for example the one >> above the "di" in "digital" looks like the feedback gain control resistor > for the >> op amp, although in other places that would make 4 resistors in parallel > which >> is unusual. >> Resistors can generally be identified with a multimeter, if you can come > up >> with the same value when swapping the multimeter leads (polarity) and >> stepping through the multimeter ohm ranges you've probably got the >> resistance - making the multiple measurements to identify non-linear >> responses to eliminate conductivity readings from semiconductor junctions. >> >> There looks to be two very similar networks around the two op amps in the >> 34072. It wouldn't really be that difficult a board to RE, although it > does look >> like some poking around with a multimeter for continuity will be necessary > to >> track internal traces, but they look to be relatively limited in number. > > Many thanks. My first measurements with a multimeter had suggested to me > that the darker ones were the caps. Thanks for putting me right before > getting too far with the reverse engineering. The multi-layers mean I won't > necessarily know where there is a connection, I can deduce that there is one > where a through hole appears to go nowhere, but who knows what other > connections I might miss. > > Any idea what an A4H and a 2FH are? They must be some kind of transistor, > but I am not sure what kind. SMD markings and packagings are ambiguous, unclear, and all over the spectrum. Here's a good site for chasing SMD markings: http://www.s-manuals.com/smd REing boards like this is an iterative process with consideration of the device markings, pin use, measurements, what makes sense electronically, and design period. In the two cases you mention it looks like the H's are a slightly different font or size and spaced slightly differently, I suspect the id codes there are A4 and 2F. An initial guess for the "A4H" device that's right above the LM339 is an A4-code dual diode with only one diode used, as it looks (from the photo) like one pin is unconnected. http://www.s-manuals.com/smd/a4 A good guess for the "2FH" devices are 2F-code PNP transistors: http://www.s-manuals.com/smd/2f Similarly, the "1PG" or "1PC" device may be a 1P-code NPN transistor. Diodes and transistors are best double-checked by first characterising your multimeter with PN junctions in known transistors or diodes so you know what ohms-range and what reading to expect on your MM when you have a PN junction in forward-conduction. Look for the lowest ohms range that will give you a reading for forward conduction. Then use that knowledge to check the SMD transistors and diodes for sensibility. Some strategy: - Sort out all the network connections for the board, by visual observation and continuity measurement. - Identify the power supply pins to the board by chasing the power supply pins of the IC packages. This will include or begin with identifying the ground connection(s) to the board in part by chasing the ground from the main unit to the pins which this board plugs into. Is an internal layer on the board a ground plane? - From what I can discern it may be that the two ICs are supplied by +/- supplies, that is, the V- pin for the ICs may go to a negative supply rather than ground, so there may be ground(s), V- and V+ connections to the board, rather than just ground and V+. - I'd suggest drawing the two op amps one above the other with a positive bus horizontally at the top of the page. If there is a negative supply draw a negative bus horizontally at the bottom of the page. Draw in the networks around the op amps, it looks like they are similar and feed into the 3 terminal device located to the upper-right of the LM339, and thence into one of the comparators. That should take care of a lot of the board, then do the remaining 3 comparators. - within sensibility, try to draw everything so electron flow is 'up' the page, this means for example that PNP transistors will be drawn upside down, with the emitter at top-right, while NPNs will be conventional with emitter at lower-right. Everything should sit vertically in between the negative bus below and positive bus above or between grounds towards the bottom and the positive bus above. - within sensibility, try to keep signal flow left-to-right with only feedback paths going 'backwards' right-to-left. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 21 16:34:57 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:34:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? Message-ID: <20151221223457.8882D18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Graham > Overblown salesmanship aside, technically I suppose they're right. Well, I don't think so. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), the Lisa was released on January 19, 1983, but the Xerox Star (AKA Dandelion): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star was introduced in 1981, almost two years before. The Star was supposed to be a commercial product version of the Alto, and although it had many issues, it did have an advanced version of the graphic-based user interface that is now universal - icons, etc, etc. And it had a mouse. Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Dec 21 16:39:00 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:39:00 -0800 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <226D8EA2-74BC-4576-AC7D-0690144FEC59@nf6x.net> > On Dec 21, 2015, at 12:54 , Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > That is an odd connector. It's compatible with an ordinary 9-pin D-sub, but with a shell that latches onto ramps on the mating connector. Squeezing the shell releases the latch. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 21 19:04:30 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 01:04:30 +0000 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: <226D8EA2-74BC-4576-AC7D-0690144FEC59@nf6x.net> References: , <226D8EA2-74BC-4576-AC7D-0690144FEC59@nf6x.net> Message-ID: The Xerox wasn't a single button mouse. That was patented by Jef Raskin while at Apple. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Mark J. Blair Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 2:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone fancy a laugh? > On Dec 21, 2015, at 12:54 , Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > That is an odd connector. It's compatible with an ordinary 9-pin D-sub, but with a shell that latches onto ramps on the mating connector. Squeezing the shell releases the latch. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 21 19:16:35 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 01:16:35 +0000 Subject: Anyone fancy a laugh? In-Reply-To: <20151221223457.8882D18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 21/12/2015 22:34, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: >> From: Adrian Graham > >> Overblown salesmanship aside, technically I suppose they're right. > > Well, I don't think so. According to Wikipedia (I know, I know), the Lisa was > released on January 19, 1983, but the Xerox Star (AKA Dandelion): I think the seller is aiming for the 'this serial number is under 32,000 therefore it was one of the first 32,000 mice made and therefore PART OF HISTORY' > was introduced in 1981, almost two years before. The Star was supposed to be > a commercial product version of the Alto, and although it had many issues, it > did have an advanced version of the graphic-based user interface that is now > universal - icons, etc, etc. And it had a mouse. Oh I know :) I wanted a Lisa as soon as I first saw the launch issue of Personal Computer News over here in the UK. April '83 I think it was. Took me 17 years and I obviously had to make do with a LisaII but hey... http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/museum/apple/lisa/index.php (my ISP has just changed my external IP address now that they're on DOCSIS-3 so that URL might not work straight away) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:33:47 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:33:47 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 Message-ID: I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started blowing fuses. I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are 8715343 or 4119686. 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a lot of 60Hz to run them... Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:45:26 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:45:26 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size frequency converter. -- Will On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started > blowing fuses. > > I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on > Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers > specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems > with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant > transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating > - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them > at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. > > 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or > transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are > 8715343 or 4119686. > > 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so > easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations > for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use > 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can > probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a > lot of 60Hz to run them... > > Thanks > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 20:48:49 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:48:49 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Any recommendations for what type? Are solid-state devices up to the job these days? I still remember rotary converters... Mike On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size > frequency converter. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started >> blowing fuses. >> >> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >> >> 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or >> transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are >> 8715343 or 4119686. >> >> 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so >> easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations >> for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use >> 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can >> probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a >> lot of 60Hz to run them... >> >> Thanks >> >> Mike >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 21:03:47 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:03:47 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. -- Will On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Any recommendations for what type? Are solid-state devices up to the > job these days? I still remember rotary converters... > > Mike > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size >> frequency converter. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started >>> blowing fuses. >>> >>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>> >>> 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or >>> transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are >>> 8715343 or 4119686. >>> >>> 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so >>> easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations >>> for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use >>> 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can >>> probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a >>> lot of 60Hz to run them... >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 21:11:16 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:11:16 -0600 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those of use who might have a broad, but more generic technical knowledge - could you please explain exactly what a "3278" is? Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and > loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, > and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can > have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. > > But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now > (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a > real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give > ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > Any recommendations for what type? Are solid-state devices up to the > > job these days? I still remember rotary converters... > > > > Mike > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > >> In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size > >> frequency converter. > >> > >> -- > >> Will > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >>> I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started > >>> blowing fuses. > >>> > >>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on > >>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers > >>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems > >>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant > >>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating > >>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them > >>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. > >>> > >>> 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or > >>> transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are > >>> 8715343 or 4119686. > >>> > >>> 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so > >>> easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations > >>> for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use > >>> 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can > >>> probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a > >>> lot of 60Hz to run them... > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> > >>> Mike > >>> > >>> http://www.corestore.org > >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.corestore.org > > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 21 21:12:56 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:12:56 -0600 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5678BFB8.7080101@pico-systems.com> On 12/21/2015 09:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and > loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, > and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can > have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. > > But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now > (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a > real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give > ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. > You can't run electronics with VFDs designed to run motors, only. They put out PWM chopped square waves at 300+ Volts. A motor's winding inductance smooths that out to a proper current waveform, and it only causes a little extra eddy current losses. But, typical transformers will have real fits with that kind of waveform. There are "frequency changers" made by Elgar and others that will do the job right, but they will cost a REAL bundle of cash! (Also known as frequency converters.) It may be possible to retune the resonant circuit of the constant voltage transformer by adding capacitance in parallel to the existing capacitor. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 21:30:07 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:30:07 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. Try IBM 3278. Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 21:37:09 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:37:09 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <5678BFB8.7080101@pico-systems.com> References: <5678BFB8.7080101@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I have heard that some guys have put a motor in the circuit just to deal with the harmonics as a filter to shore the sine wave up. An interesting idea, worth a try, but I bet it works on a case-by-case basis. -- Will On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/21/2015 09:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and >> loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, >> and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can >> have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. >> >> But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now >> (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a >> real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give >> ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. >> > You can't run electronics with VFDs designed to run motors, only. They put > out PWM chopped square waves at 300+ Volts. A motor's winding inductance > smooths that out to a proper current waveform, and it only causes a little > extra eddy current losses. But, typical transformers will have real fits > with that kind of waveform. > > There are "frequency changers" made by Elgar and others that will do the job > right, but they will cost a REAL bundle of cash! (Also known as frequency > converters.) > > It may be possible to retune the resonant circuit of the constant voltage > transformer by adding capacitance in parallel to the existing capacitor. > > Jon > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 21:45:35 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:45:35 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hmmmm. I do have a massive idler motor - as in it takes two people to even think about lifting it - from my days in NY when I had to manufacture a 3rd phase to make the S/3 and other items work... I wonder if I could do anything using that as a starting point? Three phase is no problem here... previous owner of house was a woodworker and I have 3-phase 50Hz 400V straight to the workshop already wired in :-) Finagle's law says 90% of my 3-phase big iron was acquired in the USA and expects 3-phase 60Hz 208V... :-( Mike On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and > loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, > and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can > have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. > > But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now > (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a > real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give > ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. > > -- > Will > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> Any recommendations for what type? Are solid-state devices up to the >> job these days? I still remember rotary converters... >> >> Mike >> >> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size >>> frequency converter. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started >>>> blowing fuses. >>>> >>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>>> >>>> 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or >>>> transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are >>>> 8715343 or 4119686. >>>> >>>> 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so >>>> easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations >>>> for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use >>>> 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can >>>> probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a >>>> lot of 60Hz to run them... >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >> >> >> >> -- >> >> http://www.corestore.org >> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 22:03:30 2015 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 04:03:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Available: various PSION organizers, parts, and documentation from the mid-80s References: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> I have boxes full of like-new PSION II organizers that I recently received from a US distributed. These aren't rare or valuable, but they are new in the box and seemingly never used. There are different models, with both 2 and 4 line displays, and different amounts of memory. I also have memory modules, cables, and development documentation. There's also a PSION module duplicactor. If any of this interests anyone, let me know. Also: 50 pounds of old PC parallel, serial, video cables, etc. You can see pictures here: http://www.oldcomputers.net/temp/ From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 22:40:59 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:40:59 -0600 Subject: Available: various PSION organizers, parts, and documentation from the mid-80s In-Reply-To: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2015 22:03, "steven stengel" wrote: > > I have boxes full of like-new PSION II organizers that I recently received from a US distributed. > > These aren't rare or valuable, but they are new in the box and seemingly never used. > > There are different models, with both 2 and 4 line displays, and different amounts of memory. > > > I also have memory modules, cables, and development documentation. > > There's also a PSION module duplicactor. > > > If any of this interests anyone, let me know. I see a lot of development documentation. Anyone know if all of that is scanned and online yet? From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 23:06:31 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:06:31 +1300 Subject: Available: various PSION organizers, parts, and documentation from the mid-80s In-Reply-To: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh put me down for a couple of Series 3s and serial links. They're useful; was thinking about them just the other day. Used to know an SGI dealer who kept one handy as the smallest serial terminal he could find for setting up SGI boxes from the command line. Mike On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > I have boxes full of like-new PSION II organizers that I recently received from a US distributed. > > These aren't rare or valuable, but they are new in the box and seemingly never used. > > There are different models, with both 2 and 4 line displays, and different amounts of memory. > > > I also have memory modules, cables, and development documentation. > > There's also a PSION module duplicactor. > > > If any of this interests anyone, let me know. > > > Also: 50 pounds of old PC parallel, serial, video cables, etc. > > You can see pictures here: > > > http://www.oldcomputers.net/temp/ -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sun Dec 20 09:29:58 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike Boyle) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 10:29:58 -0500 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: > On Saturday, December 19, 2015, Mike wrote: > > > Is there anything like Appleworks 1.0 for the commodore 64? if so could > > you be kind enough to give me the name of the program? I have searched > > but have found nothing of any value. I just would like a checkbool > > ledger and a savings spreadsheet. > > > > The first one that comes to mind is Magic Desk. It's primitive and, > apparently, had some issues. http://toastytech.com/guis/magdesk.html > > I remember using that one. The interface is wicked slow. > > GEOS was also pretty well populated with various applications like the ones > you seek. You'd need a mouse for hardware and, unfortunately, I've not had > an easy time getting it to work well in emulation. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) > > GEOS was fun, fun to play with. > > You can look at the software produced by Batteries Included. They did > produce an integrated suite but not with all the modules you seek. BI > produced tons of productivity software for the platform. > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteries_Included_(company) > -- ?MIKE MIKE MIKE!!! That is perfect I bet that cart is going to be a pretty penny I wonder if anyone on here would have one they would like to sell?? P.S. Hey Mike the first link worked great but the 2nd 2 were dead ends :( but thank you so very much for the info that Magic Desk is just what I am looking for!!!? *Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!* * Have a blessed day!* From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Mon Dec 21 06:46:52 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 07:46:52 -0500 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! Message-ID: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? if so how well did it work as soon as I get all my Commodore 64 setup on CHRISTmas day that is the first thing that I am going to start working on. The one I am doing is *" THE DRAGON OF DOOM "* I have been brushing up on my coding skills with old books like BASIC COMPUTER GAMES AND SUCH... So wirh me luck and if any of you have done this brfotr please let me know how it ernt? The only Major things I have forgotten are... 1. Clear the screen for the next page! 2, doing the page jumps like in the book it will say if your want top enter turn to page 356 ot if you want to keep walking turn to page 17 that is the code I have forgoten But I am sure you all will be able to help me make this game the best it can be. I wish I fould add hiypointd and damage points find gold but I guess when I get to that Ill ask only after I dearch th net for awncers. thanks yall GOD BLESS AND MERRY CHRISTmas! ' From sales at elecplus.com Tue Dec 22 00:04:06 2015 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:04:06 -0600 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 6:47 AM To: Classic computer News Group Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? if so how well did it work as soon as I get all my Commodore 64 setup on CHRISTmas day that is the first thing that I am going to start working on. The one I am doing is *" THE DRAGON OF DOOM "* I have been brushing up on my coding skills with old books like BASIC COMPUTER GAMES AND SUCH... So wirh me luck and if any of you have done this brfotr please let me know how it ernt? The only Major things I have forgotten are... 1. Clear the screen for the next page! 2, doing the page jumps like in the book it will say if your want top enter turn to page 356 ot if you want to keep walking turn to page 17 that is the code I have forgoten But I am sure you all will be able to help me make this game the best it can be. I wish I fould add hiypointd and damage points find gold but I guess when I get to that Ill ask only after I dearch th net for awncers. thanks yall GOD BLESS AND MERRY CHRISTmas! ' Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jason at smbfc.net Tue Dec 22 00:17:58 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:17:58 -0800 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5678EB16.6@smbfc.net> On 12/21/2015 04:46 AM, Mike wrote: > Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and > coded it into a text RPG in basic? if so how well did it work as soon as > I get all my Commodore 64 setup on CHRISTmas day that is the first thing > that I am going to start working on. The one I am doing is *" THE DRAGON > OF DOOM "* I have been brushing up on my coding skills with old books > like BASIC COMPUTER GAMES AND SUCH... In a similar vein, I found in the used book store by my house a year or two ago, "The Bytes Brothers" Volume 2. Billed as a "Solve-it-yourself computer mystery, it takes you through a story, with clues, the idea is to write a basic program to solve some of the puzzles through-out the book. It's pretty simple stuff, but would be perfect for an 8-9 year old just learning some BASIC on their family's home computer. I've looked around for these and haven't found these in any other used stores. ...and now that I check amazon, the entire series of these is out there for about a penny a piece, I may have to burn a Christmas dollar, literally just one to get the rest. http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Program-Problem--Yourself-Computer/dp/0553244191/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450764970&sr=1-2&keywords=bytes+brothers --Jason From jason at smbfc.net Tue Dec 22 00:21:55 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:21:55 -0800 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5678EB16.6@smbfc.net> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <5678EB16.6@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <5678EC03.1080104@smbfc.net> On 12/21/2015 10:17 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > > On 12/21/2015 04:46 AM, Mike wrote: >> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and >> coded it into a text RPG in basic? if so how well did it work as soon as >> I get all my Commodore 64 setup on CHRISTmas day that is the first thing >> that I am going to start working on. The one I am doing is *" THE DRAGON >> OF DOOM "* I have been brushing up on my coding skills with old books >> like BASIC COMPUTER GAMES AND SUCH... > > In a similar vein, I found in the used book store by my house a year > or two ago, "The Bytes Brothers" Volume 2. Billed as a > "Solve-it-yourself computer mystery, it takes you through a story, > with clues, the idea is to write a basic program to solve some of the > puzzles through-out the book. It's pretty simple stuff, but would be > perfect for an 8-9 year old just learning some BASIC on their family's > home computer. I've looked around for these and haven't found these > in any other used stores. > > ...and now that I check amazon, the entire series of these is out > there for about a penny a piece, I may have to burn a Christmas > dollar, literally just one to get the rest. > > http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Program-Problem--Yourself-Computer/dp/0553244191/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1450764970&sr=1-2&keywords=bytes+brothers > > > --Jason I see now that I completely mis-read your original post.....sorry for my off-topic reply. Best of luck in your quest! --Jason From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 00:38:00 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 01:38:00 -0500 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? >> >> 1. Clear the screen for the next page! >> > Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. For TRS-80 BASIC, I think. For Commodore BASIC, it's PRINT CHR$(147) (you can also type PRINT and a quote and hit SHIFT-CLR HOME and another quote, which works well when you want to print a string that starts by clearing the screen and going to the top left corner, then has other movement and/or text) There are a number of Commodore BASIC books out there, and for beginner stuff, the one that comes with the machine (if you get one in the box) will get you started. -ethan From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 02:41:25 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:41:25 +1300 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? Message-ID: Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 I've never seen that .552 file extension before. Any clue? It's possible that refers to a version number rather than some obscure disk image format... (They are allegedly Setasi Shelby RP12 boot disks btw :-) ) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 22 03:17:35 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:17:35 +0100 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? References: Message-ID: <4A8CB0877E854DE2A6AFF0DA50A221DC@notebook> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:41 AM Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? > Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent > to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: > > http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 > > I've never seen that .552 file extension before. Any clue? It's > possible that refers to a version number rather than some obscure disk > image format... > > (They are allegedly Setasi Shelby RP12 boot disks btw :-) ) > > Mike > Seems to be a MSDOS 5.0 boot disk, with just one important program, RP06.EXE, on it, and then some support programs. As far as I can see, it is a physical backup. Could the 552 just be a serial number `? /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 1433 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Dec 22 04:07:27 2015 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:07:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, William Donzelli wrote: > But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now > (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a > real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give > ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. I don't see how a Vacuum Fluorescent Display is of any help here... Or what do you mean by VFD? Christian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 22 04:19:22 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 02:19:22 -0800 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25A05139-5785-420A-B574-EF526478922E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:07 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, William Donzelli wrote: >> But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now >> (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a >> real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give >> ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. > > I don't see how a Vacuum Fluorescent Display is of any help here... > Or what do you mean by VFD? Variable Frequency Drive. High-power electronic controllers for industrial motors, rather than being limited to the single speed of the fixed line frequency. Must be another expression for them in deutsch. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 04:23:04 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:23:04 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 11:07 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 21 Dec 2015, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now >> (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a >> real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give >> ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. > > > I don't see how a Vacuum Fluorescent Display is of any help here... > Or what do you mean by VFD? Variable Frequency Drive I would presume; a common type of industrial power controller. Mike From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 04:28:50 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 04:28:50 -0600 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. > > Try IBM 3278. > > Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. > > -- > Will > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 04:40:05 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:40:05 -0200 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd die for a vt100... :) Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 22/12/2015 08:28, "drlegendre ." escreveu: > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > > Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. > > > > Try IBM 3278. > > > > Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. > > > > -- > > Will > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 22 04:52:30 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 02:52:30 -0800 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > >>> Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. >> >> Try IBM 3278. >> >> Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. Funny, I tried googling a bare "3278" and got the terminal in the first of 33,400,000 hits. Must have something to do with one's search history. Used to use 3278s on occasion - in the mainframe terminal room where, as an undergrad, I was not supposed to be. Just be casual and do one's best to look like you belong there. They were so much nicer than the bottom-end Hazeltines in the undergrad lab. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 05:44:59 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 06:44:59 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. > > > > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli > > wrote: > > > >>> Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. > >> > >> Try IBM 3278. > >> > >> Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. > Sadly, not as plentiful these days as vintage terminals. I've been on the lookout for one for the last couple of years just to add to my collection. Seems that keyboard collectors like the keyboards too because those I have found but not for sale lately. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 05:51:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 00:51:39 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: >> > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli >> > wrote: >> > >> >>> Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. >> >> >> >> Try IBM 3278. >> >> >> >> Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. >> > > Sadly, not as plentiful these days as vintage terminals. I've been on the > lookout for one for the last couple of years just to add to my collection. > Seems that keyboard collectors like the keyboards too because those I have > found but not for sale lately. They do seem rather thin on the ground. I picked mine up... 15 years ago now and they weren't that common then. And I had a *hell* of a time finding a 3279 - the colour version - even then. Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that classic 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to get hold of a couple. Mike From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 05:55:33 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:55:33 -0200 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has some. Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Santo Nucifora > wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: > > > >> On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. > >> > > >> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli < > wdonzelli at gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >>> Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. > >> >> > >> >> Try IBM 3278. > >> >> > >> >> Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. > >> > > > > Sadly, not as plentiful these days as vintage terminals. I've been on > the > > lookout for one for the last couple of years just to add to my > collection. > > Seems that keyboard collectors like the keyboards too because those I > have > > found but not for sale lately. > > They do seem rather thin on the ground. I picked mine up... 15 years > ago now and they weren't that common then. And I had a *hell* of a > time finding a 3279 - the colour version - even then. > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure I > read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they kept > on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest of the > world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there was > considerable redesign using more modern components inside that classic > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to get > hold of a couple. > > Mike > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 05:59:31 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 00:59:31 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Oh then we should talk... do you know what condition they are in and what power they are designed for? I'd definitely be interested in getting a couple in good shape - although shipping to NZ would be... expensive! Contact me off-list if you like. Mike On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:55 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has some. > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:44 AM, Santo Nucifora >> wrote: >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Brent Hilpert >> wrote: >> > >> >> On 2015-Dec-22, at 2:28 AM, drlegendre . wrote: >> >> > Ah, a terminal it is! Thank you. >> >> > >> >> > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:30 PM, William Donzelli < >> wdonzelli at gmail.com> >> >> > wrote: >> >> > >> >> >>> Sincere query.. as the goog turns up nothing meaningful.. >> >> >> >> >> >> Try IBM 3278. >> >> >> >> >> >> Hint: one of those popular terminal families in the world. >> >> >> > >> > Sadly, not as plentiful these days as vintage terminals. I've been on >> the >> > lookout for one for the last couple of years just to add to my >> collection. >> > Seems that keyboard collectors like the keyboards too because those I >> have >> > found but not for sale lately. >> >> They do seem rather thin on the ground. I picked mine up... 15 years >> ago now and they weren't that common then. And I had a *hell* of a >> time finding a 3279 - the colour version - even then. >> >> Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure I >> read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they kept >> on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest of the >> world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there was >> considerable redesign using more modern components inside that classic >> 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to get >> hold of a couple. >> >> Mike >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:00:29 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:00:29 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has some. > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure I > > read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they kept > > on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest of the > > world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there was > > considerable redesign using more modern components inside that classic > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to get > > hold of a couple. > > > > Mike > > > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in Canada. Email me off list. Thanks, Santo Nucifora From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:03:53 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 01:03:53 +1300 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: <4A8CB0877E854DE2A6AFF0DA50A221DC@notebook> References: <4A8CB0877E854DE2A6AFF0DA50A221DC@notebook> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Nico de Jong wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ross" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:41 AM > Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? > > >> Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >> to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: >> >> http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 >> >> I've never seen that .552 file extension before. Any clue? It's >> possible that refers to a version number rather than some obscure disk >> image format... >> >> (They are allegedly Setasi Shelby RP12 boot disks btw :-) ) >> >> Mike >> > Seems to be a MSDOS 5.0 boot disk, with just one important program, > RP06.EXE, on it, and then some support programs. > As far as I can see, it is a physical backup. Could the 552 just be a serial > number `? That's kinda what I expected actually... so you reckon they're just in normal raw image format for e.g. Rawrite? http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:06:36 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:06:36 -0000 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Santo > Nucifora > Sent: 22 December 2015 12:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has some. > > > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > > > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure > > > I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they > > > kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest > > > of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there > > > was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that > > > classic > > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to > > > get hold of a couple. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in Canada. > Email me off list. > > Thanks, > Santo Nucifora Well I have been looking for one in the UK with no luck. I have some ICL/Nokia clones but not a real 3270 Dave From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:10:06 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:10:06 -0200 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: His address is symphony.robotica at gmail.com. his name is Sergio. You can all talk directly to him. Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 22/12/2015 10:06, "Dave Wade" escreveu: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Santo > > Nucifora > > Sent: 22 December 2015 12:00 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < > > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has > some. > > > > > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > > > > > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure > > > > I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they > > > > kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest > > > > of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there > > > > was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that > > > > classic > > > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to > > > > get hold of a couple. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in > Canada. > > Email me off list. > > > > Thanks, > > Santo Nucifora > > > Well I have been looking for one in the UK with no luck. I have some > ICL/Nokia clones but not a real 3270 > > Dave > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:26:24 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 01:26:24 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've sent him an email. In case he doesn't get it you could ask him to check his spam folder! :-) Thanks! On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > His address is symphony.robotica at gmail.com. his name is Sergio. You can all > talk directly to him. > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 10:06, "Dave Wade" escreveu: > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Santo >> > Nucifora >> > Sent: 22 December 2015 12:00 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > >> > Subject: Re: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 >> > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < >> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has >> some. >> > > >> > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel >> > > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: >> > > >> > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure >> > > > I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they >> > > > kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the rest >> > > > of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there >> > > > was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that >> > > > classic >> > > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to >> > > > get hold of a couple. >> > > > >> > > > Mike >> > > > >> > > >> > >> > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in >> Canada. >> > Email me off list. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Santo Nucifora >> >> >> Well I have been looking for one in the UK with no luck. I have some >> ICL/Nokia clones but not a real 3270 >> >> Dave >> >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 06:27:53 2015 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:27:53 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have also sent him an email. Thanks Alexandre. On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 7:26 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > I've sent him an email. In case he doesn't get it you could ask him to > check his spam folder! :-) > > Thanks! > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Alexandre Souza > wrote: > > His address is symphony.robotica at gmail.com. his name is Sergio. You can > all > > talk directly to him. > > > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > Em 22/12/2015 10:06, "Dave Wade" escreveu: > > > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Santo > >> > Nucifora > >> > Sent: 22 December 2015 12:00 > >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > > >> > Subject: Re: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 > >> > > >> > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < > >> > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has > >> some. > >> > > > >> > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > >> > > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > >> > > > >> > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm > sure > >> > > > I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they > >> > > > kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the > rest > >> > > > of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there > >> > > > was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that > >> > > > classic > >> > > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to > >> > > > get hold of a couple. > >> > > > > >> > > > Mike > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in > >> Canada. > >> > Email me off list. > >> > > >> > Thanks, > >> > Santo Nucifora > >> > >> > >> Well I have been looking for one in the UK with no luck. I have some > >> ICL/Nokia clones but not a real 3270 > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 22 08:08:13 2015 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:08:13 +0100 Subject: Fw: Odd disk image format... .552? Message-ID: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Nico de Jong wrote: > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Ross" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:41 AM >> Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? >> >> >>> Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >>> to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 >>> >> Seems to be a MSDOS 5.0 boot disk, with just one important program, >> RP06.EXE, on it, and then some support programs. >> As far as I can see, it is a physical backup. Could the 552 just be a serial >> number `? > >That's kinda what I expected actually... so you reckon they're just in >normal raw image format for e.g. Rawrite? > Suppose so. They took a complete disc, sector by sector, and wrote it as a file. /Nico From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 08:41:48 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:41:48 -0400 Subject: Fw: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> References: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> Message-ID: <5679612C.2060006@gmail.com> On 2015-12-22 10:08 AM, Nico de Jong wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:17 PM, Nico de Jong wrote: >> ---- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Ross" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 9:41 AM >>> Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? >>> >>> >>>> Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >>>> to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: >>>> >>>> http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 >>>> >>> Seems to be a MSDOS 5.0 boot disk, with just one important program, >>> RP06.EXE, on it, and then some support programs. >>> As far as I can see, it is a physical backup. Could the 552 just be a serial >>> number `? >> That's kinda what I expected actually... so you reckon they're just in >> normal raw image format for e.g. Rawrite? >> > Suppose so. They took a complete disc, sector by sector, and wrote it as a file. > /Nico I would agree that it is just a sector by sector binary dump done with something like dd or rawwrite, however it is not a 5.25 diskette the format is 80 trks 18 sect 2 heads and media descriptor is 0xF0 which would be a 1.44 MB 3.5 diskette. Paul. From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue Dec 22 08:50:35 2015 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:50:35 -0600 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll check on the other URLs a little later. A very cursory glance at eBay shows multiple Magic Desk cartridges for around $12. On Sunday, December 20, 2015, Mike Boyle wrote: > On Sun, Dec 20, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Mike Whalen > > wrote: > > > On Saturday, December 19, 2015, Mike > wrote: > > > > > Is there anything like Appleworks 1.0 for the commodore 64? if so could > > > you be kind enough to give me the name of the program? I have searched > > > but have found nothing of any value. I just would like a checkbool > > > ledger and a savings spreadsheet. > > > > > > > The first one that comes to mind is Magic Desk. It's primitive and, > > apparently, had some issues. http://toastytech.com/guis/magdesk.html > > > > I remember using that one. The interface is wicked slow. > > > > GEOS was also pretty well populated with various applications like the > ones > > you seek. You'd need a mouse for hardware and, unfortunately, I've not > had > > an easy time getting it to work well in emulation. > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system) > > > > GEOS was fun, fun to play with. > > > > You can look at the software produced by Batteries Included. They did > > produce an integrated suite but not with all the modules you seek. BI > > produced tons of productivity software for the platform. > > https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batteries_Included_(company) > > > > > > -- > ?MIKE MIKE MIKE!!! That is perfect I bet that cart is going to be a pretty > penny I wonder if anyone on here would have one they would like to sell?? > > P.S. Hey Mike the first link worked great but the 2nd 2 were dead ends :( > but thank you so very much for the info that Magic Desk is just what I am > looking for!!!? > > *Mike's ?Honda ATC 3wheeler? Shop? for LIFE!!!* > > * Have a blessed day!* > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 22 08:55:20 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:55:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Now this person is optimistic Message-ID: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Check out: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP8-I-MINICOMPUTER-PDP8-PDP-8-PDP-8/201487700097 I know it has a bunch of DECTape drives, but... Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Dec 22 09:25:08 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:25:08 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? References: <016b01d1339a$57246c40$056d44c0$@ntlworld.com> <004101d13598$635e7190$2a1b54b0$@ntlworld.com> <04c801d13a2f$2e802900$8b807b00$@ntlworld.com> <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <201512200146.UAA29870@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <019801d13ccc$f0f30b70$d2d92250$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 20 December 2015 07:04 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > The problem is just how to physically do it. But in any case I don't think it is > necessary to do this now, as I have been able to reproduce the problem on > the bench now. It looks like the 12V side starts up and then shuts down, > sometimes after a few seconds, sometimes after a couple of minutes, > sometimes it does not even start to output the right voltage. I am pretty sure > that it is falsely detecting overcurrent. The problem is going to be finding and > fixing the part that is not working, there are a lot of tiny surface mount > components that seem to process the signal from the current sense > resistor.... > I was just reading the BA440 enclosure manual, and realised that the PSU will shut down the system if it thinks the fan has failed. When I have the PSU on the bench I don't have the fan connected of course. This would explain the shut downs on the bench even when under low loads, it could be just that it is detecting fan failure. At this point I realise I could be barking up completely the wrong tree in suspecting faulty overcurrent detection. This PSU is really hard to diagnose, because it is so complex, especially because it has a pretty complex interface to the backplane, not just power, but also, seemingly, a fair number of control signals. I can't really tell why it is shutting down, which makes it difficult to know where to begin once the basics have been checked. Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 09:28:43 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:28:43 -0500 Subject: Now this person is optimistic In-Reply-To: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Check out: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP8-I-MINICOMPUTER-PDP8-PDP-8-PDP-8/201487700097 > > I know it has a bunch of DECTape drives, but... > > Noel > I could see the final sale being north of $15,000 -- Bill From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 09:30:30 2015 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:30:30 -0500 Subject: Now this person is optimistic In-Reply-To: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: $50,000 BIN, in unknown condition but had failing electronics when last booted 18 years ago? Yikes! For that money, I'd expect it working, debugged, and free worldwide white glove delivery... and it's still too much. TK On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Check out: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP8-I-MINICOMPUTER-PDP8-PDP-8-PDP-8/201487700097 > > I know it has a bunch of DECTape drives, but... > > Noel > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 09:40:49 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:40:49 -0500 Subject: Now this person is optimistic In-Reply-To: References: <20151222145520.A85F218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I can see that as well - and I can see a slim chance of it actually going for $25K, as well. Cripes, those TUs are half way there! Think of the time of the year, and think of the size bonuses that some people get. -- Will On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 9:55 AM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> Check out: >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP8-I-MINICOMPUTER-PDP8-PDP-8-PDP-8/201487700097 >> >> I know it has a bunch of DECTape drives, but... >> >> Noel >> > > I could see the final sale being north of $15,000 > > -- > Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:25:46 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:25:46 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another thought - with scrap transformer prices in a crapper right now. you might also be able to pick up a really beefy isolation transformer for spare change, in order to clean up a VFD. Generally, normal industrial grade 50 Hz transformers will not care too much if you use them at 60 Hz. -- Will On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 10:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Hmmmm. > > I do have a massive idler motor - as in it takes two people to even > think about lifting it - from my days in NY when I had to manufacture > a 3rd phase to make the S/3 and other items work... I wonder if I > could do anything using that as a starting point? > > Three phase is no problem here... previous owner of house was a > woodworker and I have 3-phase 50Hz 400V straight to the workshop > already wired in :-) > > Finagle's law says 90% of my 3-phase big iron was acquired in the USA > and expects 3-phase 60Hz 208V... :-( > > Mike > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> If you can get a rotary one, those are really nice - just wasteful and >> loud. With proper maintenance they last forever, can take a beating, >> and do not give waveshape issues that cheap solid state units can >> have. And, maybe most importantly, you can make one yourself. >> >> But considering the mix of 50 and 60 Hz stuff you likely have by now >> (that is what you get for moving!), spending some decent money on a >> real VFD might be worth it. I might think a cheap VFD may give >> ferroresonant iron fits with all those extra harmonics. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> Any recommendations for what type? Are solid-state devices up to the >>> job these days? I still remember rotary converters... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 3:45 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> In the long term, you should probably break down and get a good size >>>> frequency converter. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Will >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>>> I recently blew up a 3278... it worked ok for a few hours then started >>>>> blowing fuses. >>>>> >>>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>>>> >>>>> 1. Does anyone in a 50Hz country have any dead/spare 3278s and/or >>>>> transformers for them? The IBM part number for the 50Hz 220V are >>>>> 8715343 or 4119686. >>>>> >>>>> 2. I have other equipment where this will be an issue and not so >>>>> easily solved. Does anyone have any experience in or recommendations >>>>> for frequency conversion equipment? My System/3s for instance all use >>>>> 60Hz ferroresonants operating off 208V 3-phase - now voltage can >>>>> probably be retapped or easily converted but I still need to make a >>>>> lot of 60Hz to run them... >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> http://www.corestore.org >>>>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>>>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>>>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org >>> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. >>> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. >>> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:53:17 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:53:17 +0100 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? Message-ID: I have in mind to connect a machine to an IBM 1627 (CALCOMP 565) plotter and then the XY11 which just arrive would fit nicely, I think. But I cannot seem to find any manual for the XY11. Anyone know of a manual? The board is rather simple so it should be possible to work out the details on how to interface it by hand but it would be nice to have the proper manual. Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly should draw a square and a rectangle. Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 /Mattis From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 22 11:12:30 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:12:30 -0600 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5679847E.2040108@pico-systems.com> On 12/22/2015 10:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Another thought - with scrap transformer prices in a crapper right > now. you might also be able to pick up a really beefy isolation > transformer for spare change, in order to clean up a VFD. Generally, > normal industrial grade 50 Hz transformers will not care too much if > you use them at 60 Hz. > An isolation transformer will NOT "clean up" a VFD's output. The output of a VFD is NOT some dirty sine wave, it is a train of 400 V PWM pulses with perhaps a 15 KHz carrier frequency. It could be filtered, but would take a filter built out of a bunch of HUGE inductors and capacitors. It might actually be a decent solution for keeping museum-quality gear running in an unaltered state, but it isn't something you could whip up in a couple hours in your garage. Jon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 11:28:50 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:28:50 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <5679847E.2040108@pico-systems.com> References: <5679847E.2040108@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Some VFDs are not just plain PWM pulses, but a stepped sort of thing that sort-of approximates a sinewave. As I said, all this depends on what VFD you are using, and what you might have to act as a filter, and what the load is - a case-by-case thing. -- Will On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 12:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/22/2015 10:25 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Another thought - with scrap transformer prices in a crapper right >> now. you might also be able to pick up a really beefy isolation >> transformer for spare change, in order to clean up a VFD. Generally, >> normal industrial grade 50 Hz transformers will not care too much if >> you use them at 60 Hz. >> > An isolation transformer will NOT "clean up" a VFD's output. The output of > a VFD is NOT some dirty sine wave, it is a train of 400 V PWM pulses with > perhaps a 15 KHz carrier frequency. It could be filtered, but would take a > filter built out of a bunch of HUGE inductors and capacitors. It might > actually be a decent solution for keeping museum-quality gear running in an > unaltered state, but it isn't something you could whip up in a couple hours > in your garage. > > Jon From mail.nickallen at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 08:04:58 2015 From: mail.nickallen at gmail.com (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:04:58 -0600 Subject: Apple II keyboard WTB Message-ID: <5679588A.3050206@gmail.com> Hey everyone, just got my Apple1 powered up!!! The PIA is hot to the touch, I heard they run hot, how hot is too hot?? Looking for an Apple II keyboard to convert for use on my Apple1. Anyone have one for sale or trade? Thanks! -Nick From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 22 12:57:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:57:45 -0800 Subject: Fw: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> References: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> Message-ID: <56799D29.9080806@bitsavers.org> > > Could the 552 just be a serial >>> number `? It is the version number of the program There is an entry in the directory "RPO6VER522" along with "RP06.EXE" From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 22 13:00:08 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:00:08 -0800 Subject: Fw: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: <56799D29.9080806@bitsavers.org> References: <0322758C3C204BE396AA1D5A8C498368@udvikling> <56799D29.9080806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56799DB8.7010103@bitsavers.org> On 12/22/15 10:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> Could the 552 just be a serial >>>> number `? > > > It is the version number of the program > There is an entry in the directory "RPO6VER522" > along with "RP06.EXE" > It is nice that the Massbus emulator disks have been found. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 22 14:50:01 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:50:01 +1300 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault Message-ID: Hi, I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple IIe. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic chip helped confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but it worked this time for me. Terry (Tez) From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 22 15:09:38 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:09:38 +0100 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Terry Stewart > Verzonden: dinsdag 22 december 2015 21:50 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault > > Hi, > > I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple IIe. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm > > One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic chip helped > confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. > I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but it worked this > time for me. > > Terry (Tez) I use a HP 10529A logic comparator on regular basis for fault finding in ttl circuits. It compares a reference chip with the CUT (Chip under test;) it's a very nice diagnostic tool. It's a bit like piggy backing just a little more sophisticated :0 -Rik From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 15:10:27 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:10:27 -0200 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're in trouble :) Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 22/12/2015 19:09, "Rik Bos" escreveu: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Terry Stewart > > Verzonden: dinsdag 22 december 2015 21:50 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault > > > > Hi, > > > > I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple IIe. > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm > > > > One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic chip > helped > > confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. > > I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but > it worked this > > time for me. > > > > Terry (Tez) > > I use a HP 10529A logic comparator on regular basis for fault finding in > ttl circuits. > It compares a reference chip with the CUT (Chip under test;) it's a very > nice diagnostic tool. > It's a bit like piggy backing just a little more sophisticated :0 > > -Rik > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Dec 22 15:27:37 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:27:37 +1300 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: >It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're in >trouble :) Yea. In my case the chip was quite cool, so I figured it wasn't shorted and took the risk. On reflection checking vcc/gnd with a multimeter would be a more definitive way of checking for a short of that nature. Tez On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 10:10 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're in > trouble :) > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 19:09, "Rik Bos" escreveu: > > > > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Terry > Stewart > > > Verzonden: dinsdag 22 december 2015 21:50 > > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Onderwerp: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple > IIe. > > > > > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm > > > > > > One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic > chip > > helped > > > confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. > > > I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but > > it worked this > > > time for me. > > > > > > Terry (Tez) > > > > I use a HP 10529A logic comparator on regular basis for fault finding in > > ttl circuits. > > It compares a reference chip with the CUT (Chip under test;) it's a very > > nice diagnostic tool. > > It's a bit like piggy backing just a little more sophisticated :0 > > > > -Rik > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 22 15:29:28 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:29:28 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> On 12/22/2015 01:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're > in trouble :) In my experience, this is the case with a lot of 4000-series CMOS. Don't exactly understand why. --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 15:32:46 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 19:32:46 -0200 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> Message-ID: Becaise they have diodes to gnd/vcc. And the common failure of a diode is a rupture of the barrier and so, it gets shorted. So the gate is shorted to ground or vcc Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 22/12/2015 19:29, "Chuck Guzis" escreveu: > On 12/22/2015 01:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're >> in trouble :) >> > > In my experience, this is the case with a lot of 4000-series CMOS. Don't > exactly understand why. > > --Chuck > > > > From jonas at otter.se Tue Dec 22 15:34:31 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:34:31 +0100 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5679C1E7.30000@otter.se> On 2015-12-20 23:43, Dave Wade wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >> steven at malikoff.com >> Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> >> ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- >> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> From: "Dave Wade" >> Date: Mon, December 21, 2015 3:46 am >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>> steven at malikoff.com >>>> Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>>> ---------------------------- >>>> Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>> From: "Dave Wade" >>>> Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am >>>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ----- >>>> >>>>> Folks, >>>>> >>>>> I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any >>>>> patch cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, >>>>> BUT the >>>>> TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of >>>>> the patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or >>>>> 100k resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily >>>>> fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, >>>>> and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and mount them >>>>> on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket need >>>>> to be twisted in opposite >>>> directions and any soldered joint just fails. >>>>> Any usggestions? >>>>> >>>>> Does any one have some of these and if so how are they constructed? >>>>> >>>>> Dave Wade >>>>> G4UGM >>>>> >>>> Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an >>>> original, and with a ruler included for scale? >>>> >>> I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the items:- >>> >>> http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ >>> >>> and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part >> containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm socket >> in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. >>> Dave >> Ah, ok, now I get it. Could you use two of the banana jack barrels, cut in half >> (machine them would be better) so that they can be contrarotated, then >> superglue or solvent glue the seam when tightened against eachother? > If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap fill. I am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... > >> Steve. > > Actually, super glue does gap fill. Use the thick stuff and sprinkle baking soda on the glue after applying. It will set rock hard instantly. The plastic model crowd use this for gap filling instead of putty sometimes. Jonas From north at alum.mit.edu Tue Dec 22 15:43:03 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:43:03 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> Or it is a mechanical fault due to a package/die bond wire becoming an open circuit. This could happen to where the wire joins to either the package or the die pad, or a wire that was fused due to excess current. Hard to tell unless you decap the package. On 12/22/2015 1:32 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Becaise they have diodes to gnd/vcc. And the common failure of a diode is a > rupture of the barrier and so, it gets shorted. So the gate is shorted to > ground or vcc > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 19:29, "Chuck Guzis" escreveu: > >> On 12/22/2015 01:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >>> It works if the gate is open. But if it is shorted to gnd/vcc, you're >>> in trouble :) >>> >> In my experience, this is the case with a lot of 4000-series CMOS. Don't >> exactly understand why. >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 15:44:51 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:44:51 -0000 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <5679C1E7.30000@otter.se> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <5679C1E7.30000@otter.se> Message-ID: <01aa01d13d01$fd386c10$f7a94430$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonas > Otter > Sent: 22 December 2015 21:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > > On 2015-12-20 23:43, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> steven at malikoff.com > >> Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >> > >> ---------------------------- Original Message > >> ---------------------------- > >> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >> From: "Dave Wade" > >> Date: Mon, December 21, 2015 3:46 am > >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ----- > >> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >>>> steven at malikoff.com > >>>> Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 > >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > >>>> Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ---------------------------- Original Message > >>>> ---------------------------- > >>>> Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs > >>>> From: "Dave Wade" > >>>> Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am > >>>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> -- > >>>> ----- > >>>> > >>>>> Folks, > >>>>> > >>>>> I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any > >>>>> patch cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, > >>>>> BUT the > >>>>> TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of > >>>>> the patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or > >>>>> 100k resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily > >>>>> fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, > >>>>> and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and mount them > >>>>> on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket > >>>>> need to be twisted in opposite > >>>> directions and any soldered joint just fails. > >>>>> Any usggestions? > >>>>> > >>>>> Does any one have some of these and if so how are they > constructed? > >>>>> > >>>>> Dave Wade > >>>>> G4UGM > >>>>> > >>>> Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an > >>>> original, and with a ruler included for scale? > >>>> > >>> I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the > >>> items:- > >>> > >>> http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ > >>> > >>> and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part > >> containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm > >> socket in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. > >>> Dave > >> Ah, ok, now I get it. Could you use two of the banana jack barrels, > >> cut in half (machine them would be better) so that they can be > >> contrarotated, then superglue or solvent glue the seam when tightened > against eachother? > > If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap fill. I > am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... > > > >> Steve. > > > > > Actually, super glue does gap fill. Use the thick stuff and sprinkle baking soda > on the glue after applying. It will set rock hard instantly. > The plastic model crowd use this for gap filling instead of putty sometimes. That the stuff they call Gorilla Glue or is that something else? > > Jonas From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 22 16:17:02 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:17:02 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR meter. It uses a 1ma panel meter, but of course one could substitute a resistor and use a voltmeter or a multi-meter with a 1ma scale as well. http://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). It also looks like one can get a 3 month complementary subscription via the URL http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts . The digital edition is well worth subscribing. Better yet, if you subscribe for at least 1 year you can be on their "Preferred Subscriber Network" (no extra charge - just a check-box when you subscribe) which gives you access to *all* the "digital archived" (which I found to be PDFs) issues !! (BTW, Everyday Practical Electronics, EPE, lost me as a subscriber when they did away with ordinary PDFs and instead have this odd locked thing with a plug-in. I refuse to subscribe to an online edition of a magazine where I cannot be assured of permanent access to the issues I paid for! I don't find their "EPE PDF" version with its plug-in to be acceptable. I seem to recall that they restricted printing such that one could not simply print it to a PDF either. Too bad.). JRJ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 22 16:16:28 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:16:28 +0000 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22/12/2015 20:50, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Hi, > > I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple IIe. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm > > One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic chip > helped confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. > I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but it > worked this time for me. > > Terry (Tez) I did this last night with my latest PET-under-repair, in this case an 8032-SK that I bought 15 years ago and am only just getting round to fixing now. I wasn't getting any display but the video pins LOOKED ok, I could see the flashing cursor on pin 1 for example. Shortly before giving up for the night I remembered a post elsewhere that said if the H signal wasn't spot on 20Hz the monitor wouldn't get any HV so I put my logic analyser on the 74LS86 that does the output to the video pins and one pin was stuck low. Piggybacked another one over the top and I got a display... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From steven at malikoff.com Tue Dec 22 16:21:53 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:21:53 +1000 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? From: "Mattis Lind" Date: Wed, December 23, 2015 2:53 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have in mind to connect a machine to an IBM 1627 (CALCOMP 565) plotter > and then the XY11 which just arrive would fit nicely, I think. > > But I cannot seem to find any manual for the XY11. Anyone know of a manual? > > The board is rather simple so it should be possible to work out the details > on how to interface it by hand but it would be nice to have the proper > manual. > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly should draw > a square and a rectangle. > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > /Mattis The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper covers using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of info on using the LPS-11 too. There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an excellent book and could be of use to you. Steve. From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 21:06:40 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:06:40 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> Message-ID: Ok.. On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR > meter. (...) > > (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). > So then what's the point of sending the link if the interesting content isn't actually present?? ;-p Not trying to be the arse, but seriously..? From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 22 21:26:14 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:26:14 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> Message-ID: <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> On 12/22/2015 9:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Ok.. > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR >> meter. (...) >> >> (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). >> > > So then what's the point of sending the link if the interesting content > isn't actually present?? ;-p > > Not trying to be the arse, but seriously..? > Well, I'm VERRRRY Sorry. NOT. Sheesh. It will, presumably, be there very soon, since I got my paper copy just yesterday. It isn't like I am connected to the magazine, wrote the article, or anything like that. I happened to think of it today, and this week being a celebratory week, I might not get the chance later (or remember). Maybe next time I just won't bother. This group is waaaaaaaaayyyyyy to eager to pick on folks for this or that. JRJ From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 21:45:47 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:45:47 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> Message-ID: Jay, I can certainly appreciate your enthusiasm.. but for some reason, I found it particularly (and oddly) funny that someone would post a link to "Hey, this really cool thing would be here - if it were, in fact, here - but it isn't". Now don't take +me+ so seriously, then, eh? It's all in good humor. On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 9:26 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 12/22/2015 9:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > Ok.. > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > >> FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR > >> meter. (...) > >> > >> (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). > >> > > > > So then what's the point of sending the link if the interesting content > > isn't actually present?? ;-p > > > > Not trying to be the arse, but seriously..? > > > > Well, I'm VERRRRY Sorry. NOT. Sheesh. > > It will, presumably, be there very soon, since I got my paper copy just > yesterday. It isn't like I am connected to the magazine, wrote the > article, or anything like that. I happened to think of it today, and > this week being a celebratory week, I might not get the chance later (or > remember). > > Maybe next time I just won't bother. This group is waaaaaaaaayyyyyy to > eager to pick on folks for this or that. > > JRJ > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 22 22:31:22 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 23:31:22 -0500 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? Message-ID: <7b782d.7a684f54.43ab7d9a@aol.com> I had the large ibm calcomp plotter if big wide one we have the same ... it is in the hp display case at smecc museum there was a fortran graphics text book we had adn I had gotten with a HP 3000 and it had a interface board ( parallel interface?? too many years) I made it plot squares etc .. as I remember the hp intrinsics may have had some support for this.. once I did that i put it aside and went back to playing with the HP multi-pen HP plotters we sold back them at Computer Exchange Inc. In a message dated 12/22/2015 3:22:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, steven at malikoff.com writes: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? From: "Mattis Lind" Date: Wed, December 23, 2015 2:53 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have in mind to connect a machine to an IBM 1627 (CALCOMP 565) plotter > and then the XY11 which just arrive would fit nicely, I think. > > But I cannot seem to find any manual for the XY11. Anyone know of a manual? > > The board is rather simple so it should be possible to work out the details > on how to interface it by hand but it would be nice to have the proper > manual. > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly should draw > a square and a rectangle. > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > /Mattis The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper covers using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of info on using the LPS-11 too. There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an excellent book and could be of use to you. Steve. From steven at malikoff.com Tue Dec 22 22:43:27 2015 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 14:43:27 +1000 Subject: An IBM I/O Selectric interface using TTL and a 2708 EPROM Message-ID: Back in the late 70s early 80s one of Dad's work colleagues came up with this circuit for interfacing an IBM I/O Selectric to a microcomputer. We had one, which we planned to use with our Fairchild/Mostek F8 development board, but it never got done - my brother and I wanted a computer with a screen, not a printer! So we spent our pocket money (and Dad's too) on an S-100 kit system, but that's another story. Recently I found the only remains of our I/O writer, the platen. Sadly I think it must have been junked, the platen being kept to roll out photographic prints in Dad's darkroom. I just finished scanning, cleaning up the degradation and turning the circuit into a PDF. These days an Arduino or RasPi would be a simpler and more flexible way to go, but I hope you find it interesting looking at how it was done with TTL and discrete components. The circuit was designed by (I believe) Neil Taylor, possibly with the help of Derek Williamson, both brilliant IBM Australia CE's. I know my dad always spoke very highly of them. It's an 8-page PDF at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/misc/IBM_IO_Selectric_interface.pdf Regards, Steve Malikoff. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 23 03:30:54 2015 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 01:30:54 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? Message-ID: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> There is one quite inexpensive on Ebay right now. Looks to be a match for the system unit at the CHM as well. Maybe they need a spare. I don't know if they want parts machines or not, but for the price it is almost tempting to pick it up. http://www.ebay.com/itm/321399704868 Hope Christmas brings everyone a lot of new toys. (as in old ones). Thanks jim From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 13:42:30 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:42:30 -0500 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> Message-ID: <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> On 12/22/2015 01:38 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >>> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and coded it into a text RPG in basic? >>> >>> 1. Clear the screen for the next page! >>> >> Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. > For TRS-80 BASIC, I think. For Commodore BASIC, it's > > PRINT CHR$(147) > > (you can also type PRINT and a quote and hit SHIFT-CLR HOME and > another quote, which works well when you want to print a string that > starts by clearing the screen and going to the top left corner, then > has other movement and/or text) > > There are a number of Commodore BASIC books out there, and for > beginner stuff, the one that comes with the machine (if you get one in > the box) will get you started. > > -ethan In Qbasic it's CLS Also your right Ethan and thank you that did the trick print CHR$ (147) IN Qbasic there is a SLEEP command as in... 10 PRINT " HELLO WHAT IS YOUR NAME? " PNAME$ 20 CLS 20 SLEEP=10 <----PAUSE FOR 10 SECONDS 30 PRINT "HELLO" PNAME$ "yOUR STARTING A ADVENTURE THAT WILL TAKE YOU THROUGH THE" 40 PRINT "MISTY MOUNTAINS " ============================================================= How would the sleep function work in basic I have tryed 10 sleeo=10, 10 "sleep=5" its not working... But thanks again Ethan!!! From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 19:31:46 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:31:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: Lots more work on the PDP-12 at the RICM. We got an RS-232 console board and baud rate generator from Vincent and now have both serial ports working. Warren modified Kyle's SerialDisk and we booted OS/8 from an emulated RK05 on the second serial port. We fixed one of the bus interface boards in the DW8E Omnibus expansion chassis, and connected the RX8E/RX02. We were able to boot OS/8 from an RX01 diskette. We replaced an M160 flip-chip and now the EAE instructions work. We replaced an M103 flip-chip and the KW12 clock works. This system is new enough that ECO EM12-0055 for the KW12 was installed when it was built. This means that the KW12 Maindecs earlier than D8CD will not work. We cleaned up the PC04 paper tape reader/punch and connected it to the PC8E. The punch works OK, but the reader does not always step correctly and does not read the tape correctly. Fixing this will be the next project. Once we get the PC04 working the next project will be the RK8E/RK05. Out of frustration we set aside fixing the TC12 LINCtape controller. We see spikes on data track #3 that corrupt the data. We swapped the TU56 for a known good TU55, swapped the data/control cable, and swapped every flip-chip that is related to data track #3. Nothing has eliminated the spikes. The only part that we have not swapped is the backplane wiring between the data cable and the G882 flip-chips. Warren has a plan to temporarily replace that. We found that the maintenance prints that came with the system do not include ECO EM12-0055. Does anyone have a set of KW12 prints that include ECO EM12-0055? -- Michael Thompson From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 22 20:56:51 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:56:51 -0600 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567A0D73.2010304@charter.net> On 12/22/2015 7:31 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Lots more work on the PDP-12 at the RICM. We got an RS-232 console board > and baud rate generator from Vincent and now have both serial ports > working. Warren modified Kyle's SerialDisk and we booted OS/8 from an > emulated RK05 on the second serial port. We fixed one of the bus interface > boards in the DW8E Omnibus expansion chassis, and connected the RX8E/RX02. > We were able to boot OS/8 from an RX01 diskette. We replaced an M160 > flip-chip and now the EAE instructions work. We replaced an M103 flip-chip > and the KW12 clock works. This system is new enough that ECO EM12-0055 for > the KW12 was installed when it was built. This means that the KW12 Maindecs > earlier than D8CD will not work. We cleaned up the PC04 paper tape > reader/punch and connected it to the PC8E. The punch works OK, but the > reader does not always step correctly and does not read the tape correctly. > Fixing this will be the next project. I have an image of MAINDEC-12-D8CD-PB, and a listing as well (MDEC-12-D8CD-L in my inventory). Let me know if you need them as well as the drawings (see below). It is in an archive folder with a bunch of other interesting PDP-12/PDP-8 stuff. Can you give me a pointer to the SerialDisk info? Sounds interesting. Hopefully you can actually fix the original M160 and M103 cards. > > Once we get the PC04 working the next project will be the RK8E/RK05. > > Out of frustration we set aside fixing the TC12 LINCtape controller. We see > spikes on data track #3 that corrupt the data. We swapped the TU56 for a > known good TU55, swapped the data/control cable, and swapped every > flip-chip that is related to data track #3. Nothing has eliminated the > spikes. The only part that we have not swapped is the backplane wiring > between the data cable and the G882 flip-chips. Warren has a plan to > temporarily replace that. Maybe just run another wire. If the wire is temporarily opening, that would fix it. But, if the existing wire is shorting to some *other* pin (which is a distinct possibility, of course), another wire may not help. If it doesn't, then you presumably do have a short to another pin - look at where it passes near other pins. Or maybe just start with that, and measure resistance from the wire(s) in question to the post(s) that they come very close to? > > We found that the maintenance prints that came with the system do not > include ECO EM12-0055. > Does anyone have a set of KW12 prints that include ECO EM12-0055? > Looks like mine do, with the ECO dated 12/71. Affected drawings that I detected: CLEB Input Chn 2 CLEC Input Chn 3 CLR Clock Rate Engineering Specification Mine also include Rev. B - EM12-57, dated 6/72. Affected drawings: CLC Clock I/O Control Shall I scan them in? JRJ From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Dec 23 05:06:56 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:06:56 +0100 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1450868816.1607.23.camel@agj.net> > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly > > should draw > > a square and a rectangle. > > > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > > > /Mattis > > The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper > covers using an > X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a whole > bunch of related > stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of info on using the LPS- > 11 too. > There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an > excellent book > and could be of use to you. > > Steve. > Boken finns i Ume? universitets boksamling (?ven p? fysikinstitutionen.) Det verkar inte finnas n?got exemplar i Uppsala d?remot. :-) Kastad ? From wrm at dW.co.za Wed Dec 23 05:17:47 2015 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:17:47 +0200 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20151223131746.069d14e0@mort.dw.co.za> > >Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: > >http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 Looks like a straight image for a 1.44 what we call "stiffy". The 522 is the version of RP06. Google leads me to http://www.corestore.org/rp12.htm so you already know what it's for :-) W From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 05:58:29 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 06:58:29 -0500 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > Also your right Ethan and thank you that did the trick print CHR$ (147) > IN Qbasic there is a SLEEP command as in... > > 10 PRINT " HELLO WHAT IS YOUR NAME? " PNAME$ > 20 CLS > 20 SLEEP=10 <----PAUSE FOR 10 SECONDS > 30 PRINT "HELLO" PNAME$ "yOUR STARTING A ADVENTURE THAT WILL TAKE YOU > THROUGH THE" > 40 PRINT "MISTY MOUNTAINS " > ============================================================= > > How would the sleep function work in basic I have tryed 10 sleeo=10, 10 > "sleep=5" its not working... > > But thanks again Ethan!!! > If it does not appear in your version of BASIC's manual it won't work like it does in QBASIC, at least not out of the box. -- Bill From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 06:23:29 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:23:29 -0500 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:26 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 12/22/2015 9:06 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > So then what's the point of sending the link if the interesting content > > isn't actually present?? ;-p > > > > Not trying to be the arse, but seriously..? > > > > Well, I'm VERRRRY Sorry. NOT. Sheesh. > [...] > Maybe next time I just won't bother. This group is waaaaaaaaayyyyyy to > eager to pick on folks for this or that. > fwiw, Jay, I appreciated your input, followed your link and subscribed, having never heard of the magazine before.. Looking forward to the Jan. issue with the ESR meter stuff, which I need for diagnosing my 11/45's caps. My opinion is that this list is pretty indispensable specifically for the mentorship that's happening with situations like this. Thank you. --jake From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Dec 23 06:24:47 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:24:47 +0100 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1450873487.1607.25.camel@agj.net> tis 2015-12-22 klockan 16:45 +1300 skrev Mike Ross: > Hmmmm. > > I do have a massive idler motor - as in it takes two people to even > think about lifting it - from my days in NY when I had to manufacture > a 3rd phase to make the S/3 and other items work... I wonder if I > could do anything using that as a starting point? > > Three phase is no problem here... previous owner of house was a > woodworker and I have 3-phase 50Hz 400V straight to the workshop > already wired in :-) > > Finagle's law says 90% of my 3-phase big iron was acquired in the USA > and expects 3-phase 60Hz 208V... :-( Find a property with its own little water power station ? And then rebuild the generator into a 60 Hz one. From tonypf11 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 06:57:43 2015 From: tonypf11 at gmail.com (Tony Pflum) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:57:43 -0500 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I was with a retailer that sold Fortune in about 1982. It is Motorola 68000 system running UNIX. It was sold to small business for word processing and accounting and supported multiple dumb CRT terminals. Tony pflum On Dec 23, 2015 4:30 AM, "jim s" wrote: > > There is one quite inexpensive on Ebay right now. Looks to be a match for > the system unit at the CHM as well. Maybe they need a spare. I don't know > if they want parts machines or not, but for the price it is almost tempting > to pick it up. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/321399704868 > > Hope Christmas brings everyone a lot of new toys. (as in old ones). > Thanks > jim > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 23 07:18:16 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:18:16 +0000 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> Message-ID: <567A9F18.3000800@ntlworld.com> On 23/12/15 12:23, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > fwiw, Jay, I appreciated your input, followed your link and > subscribed, having never heard of the magazine before.. Looking > forward to the Jan. issue with the ESR meter stuff, which I need for > diagnosing my 11/45's caps. My opinion is that this list is pretty > indispensable specifically for the mentorship that's happening with > situations like this. Thank you. --jake At $20 for a year for the digital edition, it does look quite good. However, it says: " *Q: Is Nuts & Volts available in a digital format?* A: Yes!/Nuts & Volts/Online is an exact replica of the print edition. It provides the same visual experience, but is delivered and viewed via the web, using Published Web Format (PWF) technology. It enables readers to link directly to advertiser information and additional web content referenced in articles./Nuts & Volts/Online is viewed via the web and is printable AND downloadable." Nowhere does it say PDF. I don't want to pay for something that could vanish, I want something tangible for my $20. Can someone with the digital edition clarify whether it really is a PDF or not? Thanks Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 23 07:21:21 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:21:21 +0000 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <567A9FD1.5060202@btinternet.com> On 23/12/2015 12:57, Tony Pflum wrote: > I was with a retailer that sold Fortune in about 1982. It is Motorola > 68000 system running UNIX. It was sold to small business for word > processing and accounting and supported multiple dumb CRT terminals. Tony > pflum > On Dec 23, 2015 4:30 AM, "jim s" wrote: > >> There is one quite inexpensive on Ebay right now. Looks to be a match for >> the system unit at the CHM as well. Maybe they need a spare. I don't know >> if they want parts machines or not, but for the price it is almost tempting >> to pick it up. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321399704868 >> >> Hope Christmas brings everyone a lot of new toys. (as in old ones). >> Thanks >> jim >> I saw some still in use about 1987 or there abouts. Rod Smallwood From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 07:28:18 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:28:18 -0000 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <1450868816.1607.23.camel@agj.net> References: <1450868816.1607.23.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <013201d13d85$c96502c0$5c2f0840$@gmail.com> Surely there is a copy of CalComp Host Computer Basic Software (HCBS) around somewhere that talks to the XY11. After all the Calcomp is pretty thick. All it can do is move 1 step at once, well it can do diagonals as well, but pretty thick... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan > Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) > Sent: 23 December 2015 11:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? > > > > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly > > > should draw a square and a rectangle. > > > > > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper covers > > using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a > > whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of > > info on using the LPS- > > 11 too. > > There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an > > excellent book and could be of use to you. > > > > Steve. > > > > Boken finns i Ume? universitets boksamling (?ven p? > fysikinstitutionen.) > Det verkar inte finnas n?got exemplar i Uppsala d?remot. :-) Kastad ? From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 05:38:30 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:38:30 +1300 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20151223131746.069d14e0@mort.dw.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20151223131746.069d14e0@mort.dw.co.za> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 12:17 AM, Wouter de Waal wrote: > >> >> Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >> to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: >> >> http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 > > > Looks like a straight image for a 1.44 what we call "stiffy". The 522 is the > version of RP06. > > Google leads me to http://www.corestore.org/rp12.htm so you already know > what it's for :-) Yep. The other thing I'm missing is the removable drive module for the Quantum XL of course... but I'm hoping I can simply replace the Passport drive with a SCSI2SD or SCSI2CF device and it'll Just Work... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 23 08:47:07 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:47:07 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <567A9F18.3000800@ntlworld.com> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> <567A9F18.3000800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <567AB3EB.1030700@charter.net> On 12/23/2015 7:18 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 23/12/15 12:23, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> fwiw, Jay, I appreciated your input, followed your link and >> subscribed, having never heard of the magazine before.. Looking >> forward to the Jan. issue with the ESR meter stuff, which I need for >> diagnosing my 11/45's caps. My opinion is that this list is pretty >> indispensable specifically for the mentorship that's happening with >> situations like this. Thank you. --jake > > At $20 for a year for the digital edition, it does look quite good. > > However, it says: " *Q: Is Nuts & Volts available in a digital format?* > A: Yes!/Nuts & Volts/Online is an exact replica of the print edition. It > provides the same visual experience, but is delivered and viewed via the > web, using Published Web Format (PWF) technology. It enables readers to > link directly to advertiser information and additional web content > referenced in articles./Nuts & Volts/Online is viewed via the web and is > printable AND downloadable." > > Nowhere does it say PDF. I don't want to pay for something that could > vanish, I want something tangible for my $20. > > Can someone with the digital edition clarify whether it really is a PDF > or not? It is indeed a PDF, with no strings attached. I have been subscribed for more than 4 years. JRJ > > Thanks > > Antonio > From cube1 at charter.net Wed Dec 23 08:52:34 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:52:34 -0600 Subject: An IBM I/O Selectric interface using TTL and a 2708 EPROM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567AB532.8080609@charter.net> On 12/22/2015 10:43 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > Back in the late 70s early 80s one of Dad's work colleagues came up with this circuit for interfacing > an IBM I/O Selectric to a microcomputer. We had one, which we planned to use with our Fairchild/Mostek > F8 development board, but it never got done - my brother and I wanted a computer with a screen, not a > printer! So we spent our pocket money (and Dad's too) on an S-100 kit system, but that's another story. > Recently I found the only remains of our I/O writer, the platen. Sadly I think it must have been junked, > the platen being kept to roll out photographic prints in Dad's darkroom. > > I just finished scanning, cleaning up the degradation and turning the circuit into a PDF. These days an > Arduino or RasPi would be a simpler and more flexible way to go, but I hope you find it interesting > looking at how it was done with TTL and discrete components. > > The circuit was designed by (I believe) Neil Taylor, possibly with the help of Derek Williamson, both > brilliant IBM Australia CE's. I know my dad always spoke very highly of them. > > It's an 8-page PDF at http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/misc/IBM_IO_Selectric_interface.pdf > > Regards, > > Steve Malikoff. > > Thanks. Squirreled away in case I ever find an IO Selectric! JRJ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 23 09:20:10 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:20:10 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <567ABBAA.5060501@bitsavers.org> On 12/23/15 4:57 AM, Tony Pflum wrote: > I was with a retailer that sold Fortune in about 1982. It is Motorola > 68000 system running UNIX. It was sold to small business for word > processing and accounting and supported multiple dumb CRT terminals. You could get a C compiler for it. The problem is the software is locked to the unit. I have manuals and a set of floppies (most likely locked) No time to do anything though, I'm in the middle of a move to a new building at work. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 23 09:24:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:24:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> <008401d13c7e$9106c1a0$b31444e0$@com> <5679A7A6.6080309@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > IN Qbasic there is a SLEEP command as in... > > > 20 SLEEP=10 <----PAUSE FOR 10 SECONDS > > How would the sleep function work in basic I have tryed 10 sleeo=10, > > 10 "sleep=5" its not working... > > But thanks again Ethan!!! On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, william degnan wrote: > If it does not appear in your version of BASIC's manual it won't work like > it does in QBASIC, at least not out of the box. I don't even know which BASIC you are trying to translate into, . . . IF it is using 10 as an argument to a function called sleep, then try SLEEP(10) or SLEEP (10) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 23 09:26:17 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:26:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <1450873487.1607.25.camel@agj.net> References: <1450873487.1607.25.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) wrote: > Find a property with its own little water power station ? > And then rebuild the generator into a 60 Hz one. depending on the generaqtor design, increase the rate of flow of the water. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Dec 23 09:34:09 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:34:09 -0500 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? Message-ID: <63d4d.26b0c176.43ac18f1@aol.com> it appears the pen kit for our plotter got listed before we had it glassed in living the glassed in display a areas if anyone has a calcomp box with the solenoid and pens that is extra to their needs please let us know many thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for smecc _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 12/23/2015 6:28:28 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: Surely there is a copy of CalComp Host Computer Basic Software (HCBS) around somewhere that talks to the XY11. After all the Calcomp is pretty thick. All it can do is move 1 step at once, well it can do diagonals as well, but pretty thick... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan > Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) > Sent: 23 December 2015 11:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? > > > > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly > > > should draw a square and a rectangle. > > > > > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper covers > > using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a > > whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of > > info on using the LPS- > > 11 too. > > There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an > > excellent book and could be of use to you. > > > > Steve. > > > > Boken finns i Ume? universitets boksamling (?ven p? > fysikinstitutionen.) > Det verkar inte finnas n?got exemplar i Uppsala d?remot. :-) Kastad ? From auringer at tds.net Wed Dec 23 09:48:31 2015 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:48:31 -0600 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <567A9F18.3000800@ntlworld.com> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> <567A1456.5030305@charter.net> <567A9F18.3000800@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <567AC24F.2020905@tds.net> On 2015-12-23 7:18 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Can someone with the digital edition clarify whether it really is a PDF > or not? If you look at the online version, there is a "download" link to the .PDF in the upper right corner. It downloads and reads just fine. Thanks Jay! -Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 23 09:48:44 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 15:48:44 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: 21 December 2015 22:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > SMD markings and packagings are ambiguous, unclear, and all over the > spectrum. > Here's a good site for chasing SMD markings: > http://www.s-manuals.com/smd > > REing boards like this is an iterative process with consideration of the device > markings, pin use, measurements, what makes sense electronically, and > design period. > > In the two cases you mention it looks like the H's are a slightly different font > or size and spaced slightly differently, I suspect the id codes there are A4 and > 2F. > > An initial guess for the "A4H" device that's right above the LM339 is an A4- > code dual diode with only one diode used, as it looks (from the photo) like > one pin is unconnected. > http://www.s-manuals.com/smd/a4 > > A good guess for the "2FH" devices are 2F-code PNP transistors: > http://www.s-manuals.com/smd/2f > > Similarly, the "1PG" or "1PC" device may be a 1P-code NPN transistor. > > Diodes and transistors are best double-checked by first characterising your > multimeter with PN junctions in known transistors or diodes so you know > what ohms-range and what reading to expect on your MM when you have a > PN junction in forward-conduction. Look for the lowest ohms range that will > give you a reading for forward conduction. Then use that knowledge to check > the SMD transistors and diodes for sensibility. > > Some strategy: > > - Sort out all the network connections for the board, by visual > observation and continuity measurement. > > - Identify the power supply pins to the board by chasing the power > supply pins of the IC packages. > This will include or begin with identifying the ground connection(s) > to the board in part by chasing the > ground from the main unit to the pins which this board plugs into. > Is an internal layer on the board a ground plane? > > - From what I can discern it may be that the two ICs are supplied by > +/- supplies, that is, the V- pin for the > ICs may go to a negative supply rather than ground, so there may be > ground(s), V- and V+ connections > to the board, rather than just ground and V+. > > - I'd suggest drawing the two op amps one above the other with a > positive bus horizontally at the top of the page. > If there is a negative supply draw a negative bus horizontally at the > bottom of the page. > Draw in the networks around the op amps, it looks like they are > similar and feed into the 3 terminal device located to the upper-right of the > LM339, > and thence into one of the comparators. That should take care of a > lot of the board, then do the remaining 3 comparators. > > - within sensibility, try to draw everything so electron flow is 'up' the > page, this means for example that PNP transistors > will be drawn upside down, with the emitter at top-right, while NPNs > will be conventional with emitter at lower-right. > Everything should sit vertically in between the negative bus below > and positive bus above or between grounds towards the bottom and the > positive bus above. > > - within sensibility, try to keep signal flow left-to-right with only > feedback paths going 'backwards' right-to-left. I reckon I have got about as far as I can with reverse engineering the riser board that connects to the current sensing resistors. I am less certain now that the fault could be in this area, but I thought that I might as well finish the schematic since I have got so far with it. The result is here: http://1drv.ms/1Yxy8nG. The part under the "Riser Board" label is as complete as I can make it, the part under the "Output Stage" label is just the very last part of the board that the riser is connected to. The X3-L and X3-R connectors are the connectors on the riser board. There is much more on the board the riser is attached to, mainly transformers, large resistors and capacitors, plus another little riser board with a UC3825 PWM controller on it; it also has tracks in a middle layer, I can see them a bit, but they are very hard to trace. There are likely some mistakes. For example, not having the datasheets for what are probably transistors and dual diodes, I may have got them the wrong way round, although I am pretty sure the pin that is on its own on one side of the package is the common cathode for the dual diodes, and the base for the transistors. I am not sure how useful the schematic is going to be. It would be good if I could test it in isolation on the bench, but it looks like it would be a difficult set up, and I am not at all certain that the fault is in this area anyway. I think the best thing now would be if I could test the whole +12V/-12V sub-assembly on the bench. It is fed somewhat indirectly from other parts of the PSU, but it isn't clear to me if the input is DC or AC, although I suspect AC. I have uploaded two annotated pictures as well at the same URL (note that the 12V board has a number of missing parts at the moment). I suspect the best thing is probably going to be to add some probe wires at the 12V board input and measure them with the PSU installed (so it detects the fan and doesn't shutdown), to see if power is even getting to it. Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Dec 23 10:13:55 2015 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:13:55 +0100 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2015 11:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR meter. It uses a 1ma panel meter, but of course one could substitute a resistor and use a voltmeter or a multi-meter with a 1ma scale as well. http://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). It also looks like one can get a 3 month complementary subscription via the URL http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts . The digital edition is well worth subscribing. Better yet, if you subscribe for at least 1 year you can be on their "Preferred Subscriber Network" (no extra charge - just a check-box when you subscribe) which gives you access to *all* the "digital archived" (which I found to be PDFs) issues !! (BTW, Everyday Practical Electronics, EPE, lost me as a subscriber when they did away with ordinary PDFs and instead have this odd locked thing with a plug-in. I refuse to subscribe to an online edition of a magazine where I cannot be assured of permanent access to the issues I paid for! I don't find their "EPE PDF" version with its plug-in to be acceptable. I seem to recall that they restricted printing such that one could not simply print it to a PDF either. Too bad.). JRJ --------- Thanks for this post Jay. On the Viperpits forum I received a digital issue (PDF) some 8 months ago. I remember it was fun reading, even if I was not planning on building it. Thanks also for the hint "Preferred Subscriber Network" - I checkmarked it! I subscribed just a few minutes ago. My first issue will be February 2016. I have not yet checked, but with the "Preferred Subscriber Network", I hope to have lots of reading stuff during the season's holidays. Hmmm, as if I had nothing else to do :-/ The list may have a lot of chatter, but the "Delete" key is always within reach. But your post is exactly one of the reasons to stay aboard! Thanks Jay! - Henk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 23 10:43:48 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:43:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <63d4d.26b0c176.43ac18f1@aol.com> References: <63d4d.26b0c176.43ac18f1@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > it appears the pen kit for our plotter got listed before we had > it glassed in living the glassed in display a areas Could you rephrase that? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Dec 23 10:47:17 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:47:17 -0500 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? Message-ID: <5aabef.54d26e3c.43ac2a15@aol.com> yes I can... it got LIFTED! Ripped Off! Stolen! Bummer eh? In a message dated 12/23/2015 9:43:59 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > it appears the pen kit for our plotter got listed before we had > it glassed in living the glassed in display a areas Could you rephrase that? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Dec 23 10:56:03 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:56:03 -0500 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? Message-ID: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> resending with corrections! it appears the pen kit for our plotter got LIFTED (aka stolen, ripped off... etc... bummer..) before we had it glassed in living the glassed in display a areas if anyone has a calcomp box with the solenoid and pens that is extra to their needs please let us know In a message dated 12/22/2015 9:31:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, COURYHOUSE at aol.com writes: I had the large ibm calcomp plotter if big wide one we have the same ... it is in the hp display case at smecc museum there was a fortran graphics text book we had adn I had gotten with a HP 3000 and it had a interface board ( parallel interface?? too many years) I made it plot squares etc .. as I remember the hp intrinsics may have had some support for this.. once I did that i put it aside and went back to playing with the HP multi-pen HP plotters we sold back them at Computer Exchange Inc. In a message dated 12/22/2015 3:22:01 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, steven at malikoff.com writes: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? From: "Mattis Lind" Date: Wed, December 23, 2015 2:53 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I have in mind to connect a machine to an IBM 1627 (CALCOMP 565) plotter > and then the XY11 which just arrive would fit nicely, I think. > > But I cannot seem to find any manual for the XY11. Anyone know of a manual? > > The board is rather simple so it should be possible to work out the details > on how to interface it by hand but it would be nice to have the proper > manual. > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly should draw > a square and a rectangle. > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > /Mattis The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper covers using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and a whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a lot of info on using the LPS-11 too. There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an excellent book and could be of use to you. Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 23 10:59:02 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:59:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> References: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > resending with corrections! > it appears the pen kit for our plotter got LIFTED (aka stolen, > ripped off... etc... bummer..) before we had it glassed in much better! > living the glassed in display a areas ?? > if anyone has a calcomp box with the solenoid > and pens that is extra to their needs please let us know sorry, none around From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 23 11:00:22 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:00:22 -0600 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <1450873487.1607.25.camel@agj.net> References: <1450873487.1607.25.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <567AD326.8000409@pico-systems.com> tis 2015-12-22 klockan 16:45 +1300 skrev Mike Ross: >> >> Finagle's law says 90% of my 3-phase big iron was acquired in the USA >> and expects 3-phase 60Hz 208V... :-( Many machines which did NOT have a ferroresonant transformer could be run from 50 or 60 Hz with no problem. The one place it was a problem would be getting the disk spindles turning at the right speed. Matching the available voltage would be the other detail, but a standard voltage adjusting transformer would do it fairly simply. But, the ferroresonant transformers needed the right frequency. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 11:17:26 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 17:17:26 -0000 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> Message-ID: <00e901d13da5$cc6a6d00$653f4700$@gmail.com> Didn't some one else have this problem... http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/calcomp565.html Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 23 December 2015 16:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? > > On Wed, 23 Dec 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > resending with corrections! > > it appears the pen kit for our plotter got LIFTED (aka stolen, > > ripped off... etc... bummer..) before we had it glassed in > > much better! > > > living the glassed in display a areas > > ?? > > > if anyone has a calcomp box with the solenoid > > and pens that is extra to their needs please let us know > > sorry, none around From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 23 11:45:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 09:45:20 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <567ADDB0.6090807@sydex.com> I did the development of the firmware for the monochrome terminal--still have the code as well as the prototype PCB. Z80-based. I used the 32/16 a bit for testing. Fortune was located at the old Pepsi Bottling Plant in Redwood City. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 23 12:09:21 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:09:21 -0800 Subject: Odd disk image format... .552? In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20151223131746.069d14e0@mort.dw.co.za> Message-ID: <567AE351.5010206@bitsavers.org> On 12/23/15 3:38 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 12:17 AM, Wouter de Waal wrote: >> >>> >>> Recently found some long-lost images of 5 1/4" floppies that were sent >>> to me... 10-15 years ago. Here's one of them: >>> >>> http://www.corestore.org/RP06.552 >> >> >> Looks like a straight image for a 1.44 what we call "stiffy". The 522 is the >> version of RP06. >> >> Google leads me to http://www.corestore.org/rp12.htm so you already know >> what it's for :-) > > Yep. The other thing I'm missing is the removable drive module for the > Quantum XL of course... but I'm hoping I can simply replace the > Passport drive with a SCSI2SD or SCSI2CF device and it'll Just Work... > It was mentioned on another list that 7zip can deal with raw floppy images. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 23 12:13:45 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:13:45 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: <567ADDB0.6090807@sydex.com> References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> <567ADDB0.6090807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567AE459.20008@bitsavers.org> On 12/23/15 9:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I did the development of the firmware for the monochrome terminal--still have the code as well as the prototype PCB. Z80-based. I used the 32/16 a bit for testing. Fortune was located at the old > Pepsi Bottling Plant in Redwood City. > Did it use ANSI escape sequences? There is another computer collector in the Bay Area who worked on the Fortune Unix port. The MAME/MESS folks might be interested in simulating the terminal. They like working on things like that. The main CPU would be another simulation target if the technical docs ever turn up. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 23 12:53:40 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 10:53:40 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect Fortune 32/16 systems? In-Reply-To: <567AE459.20008@bitsavers.org> References: <567A69CE.5030700@jwsss.com> <567ADDB0.6090807@sydex.com> <567AE459.20008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <567AEDB4.7090107@sydex.com> On 12/23/2015 10:13 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Did it use ANSI escape sequences? > > There is another computer collector in the Bay Area who worked on the > Fortune Unix port. > > The MAME/MESS folks might be interested in simulating the terminal. > They like working on things like that. The main CPU would be another > simulation target if the technical docs ever turn up. Yes, it was based on the VT100, so could also do VT50 sequences. There was a lot of code added to handle foreign character sets, based on the Videotex/NAPLPS standards. I think I've got the hand-drawn schematics in my file still. That whole early 80s period in retrospect seems something of a black hole for me. I was dealing with a bucketload of personal issues and so took on as much work as possible to get the bills paid. So I did a fair bit of Unix development, sysadmin-ed a VAX 11/750 running BSD and got involved in too many short-term project to remember. Occasionally, I'll run across an old disk with code on it that identifies me as the author, but I don't recall even doing it--we're not talking a few dozen lines, either, but hundreds of lines. The thing I remember about Fortune the most is that they had dial-in USENET access. The rest is a blur. --Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 23 13:45:54 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 20:45:54 +0100 Subject: ST-251 MLC-1 Message-ID: <20151223204554.Horde.ShmWoFSAjya4i0uMOX5ga6b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Hi, I knew ST-251-0, ST-251-1 drives for ST506. Some time ago I've got a ST-251 labled "MLC-1". Does someone knows what the MLC stands for? What is different to the other ST-251 variants? It looks like a regular ST506 drive. Oliver From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 23 14:08:54 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 20:08:54 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> References: <01PUGNJP4KFM00B1M3@beyondthepale.ie> <051b01d13a67$ba3d7f50$2eb87df0$@ntlworld.com> <201512191608.LAA00230@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <052701d13a81$72e1d510$58a57f30$@ntlworld.com> <024301d13a8b$87059450$9510bcf0$@gmail.com> <052801d13a92$0f1d9c10$2d58d430$@ntlworld.com> <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <024701d13dbd$bfc75500$3f55ff00$@ntlworld.com> Good news! It looks like I have managed to get this working again. I realised I had not checked the electrolytic capacitors on the main logic board, ones situated far from the main power output boards. I found one which had a higher ESR than two other identical ones, although the ESR was still theoretically OK according to the table on my meter it was at the limit, so I replaced it and the PSU now appears to work. It really goes to show, *all* electrolytic capacitors should be checked. Picture showing the one I replaced here: http://1drv.ms/1PlfKIV. Interestingly, I had had a similar failure in another of these PSUs, which I handed to a friend along with a VAX 4000-300 I gave him, in the hope that he would be able to fix it. As that PSU was already partially dismantled from my previous investigations, I asked to borrow it back for the purposes of doing the reverse engineering. I noticed that the same capacitor on that PSU also has a higher ESR, but again within range of what should be OK. So, looks like I might try this as a fix for the second bad PSU too, if he is OK with me trying that. Regards Rob From bobvines00 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 10:30:53 2015 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 11:30:53 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? Message-ID: Has anyone written PDP-8 code for .XOR. that uses the MQ Register (when the EAE isn't available)? If so, can you share the source code and/or the algorithm? Thanks, Bob From clasystems at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 11:24:43 2015 From: clasystems at gmail.com (CLASystems) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 12:24:43 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The MQ is standard on the PDP-8/E and up through the VT78 and the DECmates. Not possible on the 8/L, but an easy option for the PDP-8/I and the PDP-12. This could be a problem on the straight-8 [or LINC-8] with EAE though. It's the only model where the SWP [MQA and MQL in the same instruction] doesn't work [in case that matters]. cjl On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > Has anyone written PDP-8 code for .XOR. that uses the MQ Register (when > the EAE isn't available)? If so, can you share the source code and/or the > algorithm? > > > Thanks, > > Bob > -- "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" Bill Gates, 1992 From clasystems at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 12:44:07 2015 From: clasystems at gmail.com (CLASystems) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:44:07 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The following is yet another way to do it [the same identities of course apply]: TAD ARGONE AND ARGTWO CMA DCA TEMP TAD ARGONE MQL TAD ARGTWO MQA AND TEMP This method has the advantage that it also works on the straight-8 EAE avoiding the singular problem of SWP unique to the two original EAE implementations,. [In theory, EAE could be on the LINC-8.] The MQ has the advantage of the .IOR. that helps start things off, but the MQ cannot be .AND. with anything. Nothing need be dependent on the MQ outside of the code. [If you assume the MQ is one of the arguments doesn't help here; most real-world needs wouldn't do that.] Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. TAD ARGONE AND ARGTWO CLL RAL CIA TAD ARGONE DCA ARGTWO This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. OK, all that said, I have another problem: On the LINC-8 there is no divide, but there is an "inverse multiply" [an alternate operating mode of the regular divide]. Can anyone explain what this is exactly [I suspect it is a "poor man"s divide]. It's standard in all LINC machines [Classic LINC, LINC-8, PDP-12, B D Speare Micro-LINC 100 and 300]. cjl [also it's a one's complement machine]. ps: The major registers of the LINC-8's MQ-type register uses the very same R212 modules used for straight-8 EAE. On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:24 PM, CLASystems wrote: > The MQ is standard on the PDP-8/E and up through the VT78 and the DECmates. > > Not possible on the 8/L, but an easy option for the PDP-8/I and the PDP-12. > > This could be a problem on the straight-8 [or LINC-8] with EAE though. > It's the only model where the SWP [MQA and MQL in the same instruction] > doesn't work [in case that matters]. > > cjl > > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:30 AM, Bob Vines wrote: > >> Has anyone written PDP-8 code for .XOR. that uses the MQ Register (when >> the EAE isn't available)? If so, can you share the source code and/or the >> algorithm? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Bob >> > > > > -- > "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" > > Bill Gates, 1992 > -- "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" Bill Gates, 1992 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Dec 23 17:37:35 2015 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:37:35 +0000 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> Message-ID: <567B303F.4050809@ntlworld.com> Thanks all. I've tried the free subscription for now. That's got me Dec 2015 (which I can download as a PDF!) and will presumably get me Jan + Feb 2016. After that I'll probably take out a 1 year subscription and see how it goes. I'm happy :-) Antonio From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 21:14:46 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:14:46 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. > > TAD ARGONE > AND ARGTWO > CLL RAL > CIA > TAD ARGONE > DCA ARGTWO > > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't a clue what it does. What I have entered: sim> ie -m 100-105 100: TAD 76 101: AND 77 102: CLL RAL 103: CIA 104: TAD 76 105: DCA 77 Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 4321 After running the above code sample: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 0574 If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): sim> ie 076-077 76: 4321 77: 3661 Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. Am I missing something blindingly obvious? Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 23 23:12:37 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:12:37 -0600 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> References: <5ab94b.1a403dce.43ac2c23@aol.com> Message-ID: <567B7EC5.6060401@pico-systems.com> On 12/23/2015 10:56 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > it appears the pen kit for our plotter got LIFTED (aka stolen, > ripped off... etc... bummer..) before we had it glassed in living the > glassed in display a areas if anyone has a calcomp box with the solenoid > and pens that is extra to their needs please let us know > I have a bag of original, unused Calcomp pen nibs. These are basically identical to Rapidograph pen nibs. These worked with my Calcomp 1076 plotter. I got rid of the rest of the stuff when I scrapped that plotter. (It was a HUGE beast.) So, all the holders, adapters, etc. are gone. The rest of the stuff was all badly gummed-up. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 24 00:38:22 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 06:38:22 +0000 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm not sure how to code it on the machine but I know how to do it. Take A AND B = C 2* C = D ( ignore carry ) negate D ( complement and add 1 ) A + B = E ( this could have been done first ) E + D = A XOR B I think it needs 3 variables? It works because the carries are the result of the AND of the times 2 ( his RAL ) negating and subtracting is what he want to do, leaving the XOR. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:14 PM To: CLASystems at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. > > TAD ARGONE > AND ARGTWO > CLL RAL > CIA > TAD ARGONE > DCA ARGTWO > > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't a clue what it does. What I have entered: sim> ie -m 100-105 100: TAD 76 101: AND 77 102: CLL RAL 103: CIA 104: TAD 76 105: DCA 77 Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 4321 After running the above code sample: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 0574 If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): sim> ie 076-077 76: 4321 77: 3661 Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. Am I missing something blindingly obvious? Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Dec 24 00:50:54 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:50:54 -0800 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567B95CE.4000708@alum.mit.edu> On 12/23/2015 7:14 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: >> Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ >> altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. >> >> TAD ARGONE >> AND ARGTWO >> CLL RAL >> CIA >> TAD ARGONE >> DCA ARGTWO >> >> This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing >> they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. >> > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't > a clue what it does. > > What I have entered: > sim> ie -m 100-105 > 100: TAD 76 > 101: AND 77 > 102: CLL RAL > 103: CIA > 104: TAD 76 > 105: DCA 77 > > Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 1234 > 77: 4321 > > After running the above code sample: > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 1234 > 77: 0574 > > If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 4321 > 77: 3661 > > Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. > > Am I missing something blindingly obvious? > > > Cheers, > Christian I think there was just a bit of brain fade in the original listing. From DEC-08-FFAA-D PDP-8 Math Library circa 1968 the XOR routine is as follows, transcribed to SIMH: sim> de 76 1234 sim> de 77 4321 sim> ie -m 100-107 100: CLA CLL 101: TAD 76 102: AND 77 103: CIA 104: CLL RAL 105: TAD 76 106: TAD 77 107: HLT sim> go 100 HALT instruction, PC: 00110 (AND 0) sim> ex ac AC: 5115 Which produces the correct result in the AC. Locations 103/104 were swapped in order, and location 106 was left out. And for completeness location 100 was added to initially clear the AC/Link. Don From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:02:23 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:02:23 +0000 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Ok, I think I get it The acc is one value. Both arg1 and agr0 are init to the second value ( start the same ) I'm not sure how to save a value to the acc on a pdp-8. I know how on my Nicolet 1080 that has a similar ALU. On my Nicolet: MEMA ARG0 A+MM ARG0 ANDAM ARG1 A+MA ARG1 ANGA A+MAM ARG0 ( acc and ARG0 have the xor of the original ARG0 and ARG1 ) I suspect it is similar on a pdp-8 as they have similar ALUs Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 10:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? I'm not sure how to code it on the machine but I know how to do it. Take A AND B = C 2* C = D ( ignore carry ) negate D ( complement and add 1 ) A + B = E ( this could have been done first ) E + D = A XOR B I think it needs 3 variables? It works because the carries are the result of the AND of the times 2 ( his RAL ) negating and subtracting is what he want to do, leaving the XOR. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:14 PM To: CLASystems at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. > > TAD ARGONE > AND ARGTWO > CLL RAL > CIA > TAD ARGONE > DCA ARGTWO > > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't a clue what it does. What I have entered: sim> ie -m 100-105 100: TAD 76 101: AND 77 102: CLL RAL 103: CIA 104: TAD 76 105: DCA 77 Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 4321 After running the above code sample: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 0574 If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): sim> ie 076-077 76: 4321 77: 3661 Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. Am I missing something blindingly obvious? Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:11:48 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:11:48 -0700 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: <20151221201800.E952018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151221201800.E952018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > In part, along with the bad diagram, I was thrown by a combo of the fact that > i) the DEC part numbers for the control chip started with 23- (which seems to > be a ROM part indicator), The 23- prefix was for all programmable ICs, whether mask-programmable or field-programmable, not just ROMs/PROMs/EPROMs. The control chip uses mask-programmed PLAs for macroinstruction decode. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:20:41 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:20:41 +0000 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: oops blew it. MEMA ARG0 A+MA ARG1 ACCM TMP MEMA ARG0 AND ARG1 A+MA ARG1 ANGA A+MAM TMP ( both Acc and TMP have XOR of ARG0 and ARG1 I needed three locations Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? Ok, I think I get it The acc is one value. Both arg1 and agr0 are init to the second value ( start the same ) I'm not sure how to save a value to the acc on a pdp-8. I know how on my Nicolet 1080 that has a similar ALU. On my Nicolet: MEMA ARG0 A+MM ARG0 ANDAM ARG1 A+MA ARG1 ANGA A+MAM ARG0 ( acc and ARG0 have the xor of the original ARG0 and ARG1 ) I suspect it is similar on a pdp-8 as they have similar ALUs Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 10:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? I'm not sure how to code it on the machine but I know how to do it. Take A AND B = C 2* C = D ( ignore carry ) negate D ( complement and add 1 ) A + B = E ( this could have been done first ) E + D = A XOR B I think it needs 3 variables? It works because the carries are the result of the AND of the times 2 ( his RAL ) negating and subtracting is what he want to do, leaving the XOR. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:14 PM To: CLASystems at gmail.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. > > TAD ARGONE > AND ARGTWO > CLL RAL > CIA > TAD ARGONE > DCA ARGTWO > > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't a clue what it does. What I have entered: sim> ie -m 100-105 100: TAD 76 101: AND 77 102: CLL RAL 103: CIA 104: TAD 76 105: DCA 77 Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 4321 After running the above code sample: sim> ie 076-077 76: 1234 77: 0574 If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): sim> ie 076-077 76: 4321 77: 3661 Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. Am I missing something blindingly obvious? Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Dec 24 01:21:21 2015 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 23:21:21 -0800 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: <567B95CE.4000708@alum.mit.edu> References: <567B95CE.4000708@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <567B9CF1.6030300@alum.mit.edu> On 12/23/2015 10:50 PM, Don North wrote: > On 12/23/2015 7:14 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: >>> Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ >>> altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. >>> >>> TAD ARGONE >>> AND ARGTWO >>> CLL RAL >>> CIA >>> TAD ARGONE >>> DCA ARGTWO >>> >>> This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing >>> they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. >>> >> Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. > I think there was just a bit of brain fade in the original listing. From > DEC-08-FFAA-D PDP-8 Math Library circa 1968 > the XOR routine is as follows, transcribed to SIMH: > > sim> de 76 1234 > sim> de 77 4321 > sim> ie -m 100-107 > 100: CLA CLL > 101: TAD 76 > 102: AND 77 > 103: CIA > 104: CLL RAL > 105: TAD 76 > 106: TAD 77 > 107: HLT > sim> go 100 > > HALT instruction, PC: 00110 (AND 0) > sim> ex ac > AC: 5115 > > Which produces the correct result in the AC. Locations 103/104 were swapped in > order, and location 106 was left out. > And for completeness location 100 was added to initially clear the AC/Link. > > Don > FYI here is a link to find the document: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,3191 I can't find it under dec/pdp8 on bitsavers, maybe I'm just not seeing it. Don From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:24:36 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:24:36 -0700 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) Message-ID: I wrote about my HP 16702A not working on Ethernet any more. On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 8:08 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > Assuming you are using 10BT for the network connection, do > you have the terminator cap installed on the 10B2 BNC jack? I think > some things don't work right with the 16700A/16702A network without > that terminator cap installed. I tried it. Didn't work. I also tried connecting the 10base2 to a 10 Mbps hub, and another port to my "real" network, and that still didn't work. As HP-UX boots, it says: auto_parms >> Network was disabled by boot scripts on previous oot. Re-activating the network. 8/16/6 0 UP lan0 DOWN 4 ETHER Yes 52 auto_parms >> /sbin/auto_parms, checking network for DHCP server (see /etc/auto_parms.log) Then in the progress list, it shows: Configure LAN interfaces .................... [FAIL] * Check LAN Status .............................. [N/A ] [...] Configure HP Ethernet interfaces ......... [ OK ] Configure HP 100BT interfaces ............ [N/A ] Configure LAN interfaces ..................... [ OK ] Then once the logic analyzer application is up, it shows an error log window, which says There was a DHCP error . Network was disabled. But if I go to network settings, it says: Network hardware not usable - Is the network connected? And all of the radio buttons (e.g., to select "standard" configuration instead of DHCP) are greyed out and I can't configure it. I think the Ethernet ports on this beast are dead. :-( I'm not sure whether it's the CPU board or the I/O board that is dead, but Keysight, or whoever they are this week, wants more money for either of those boards than eBay pricing for a used 16700A or 16702A. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:38:54 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:38:54 -0700 Subject: dumping Western Digital Microms (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 2:26 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I built an apparatus on a breadboard to dump the contents of [Western Digital] > Microms, [from the LSI-11, WD16, and WD9000 Pascal Microengine chipsets] I managed to get the state analysis data files exported as CSV and compressed to fit on a floppy, so I finally got them to my PC. Since the dumping apparatus cycles through the 2K address range continuously, and I used the full 1M sample buffer of the acquistion card, I have over 500 copies of each location. My Python script reported that five of the nine Microms I read had inconsistent read results for many addresses. Usually each address with problems only reported two or three different contents. Sometimes the (wrong) contents were 0, or were the value of the previous word (as if the Microm didn't accept the most recent address). I changed from a 2 MHz symmetric four-phase clock to a 1 MHz asymmetric, giving more time to all phases but particularly to phase 1 and 2, and to the phase-1-to-2 and phase-2-to-3 delays, but it didn't help. With the logic analyzer's timing analysis, I discovered that there were four to eight nanosecond glitches on the phase 1 clock while phase 2 is active. Even more surprising, the phase 1 glitch was present on the CMOS phase 1 clock from the PIC. When the glitch occurs, the microinstruction bus value changes, even though at that time the 74HCT245s are actively driving it from my counter. I don't think the MICROM has strong enough buffers to overdrive the 74HCT245. After a lot of head scratching and consulting with a friend, I concluded that it is probably due to ground bounce when the 74HCT245s are enabled. The two together are driving 11 lines with about 50 pF load on each line, so that could require quite a transient on the supply and ground to the 74HCT245s. I beefed up the supply and ground wiring to the 74HCT245s, added more 0.1uF bypass capacitors closer to the relevant pins, and in addition to the four 10uF aluminum electrolytic bulk bypass capacitors I had previously, added about ten 10uF tantalum capacitors. I was pleasantly surprised that after doing all that, when I read all nine Microms again, they all read consistently. The four that read consistently before do match the new dumps. Now I think I've got good data from all nine parts. In the future it would be nice to dump the KEV11-A (LSI-11 EIS/FIS) Microm, the KEV11-C (LSI-11 CIS or DIS) Microms, and the Alpha Micro AM100 (WD16) Microms, but I don't presently have any of those. I'm working on a microcode disassembler in Python, but it's not ready yet. There is still the problem that we need to optically extract the PLA contents from the control chips, since that is different between the LSI-11, Pascal Microengine, and AM100 (WD16). Without that, it won't be possible to fully understand the microcode control flow, because those PLAs can cause changes in flow that aren't represented by jump or return instructions in the microcode ROMs. Eric From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 24 01:55:22 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 07:55:22 +0000 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: <567B9CF1.6030300@alum.mit.edu> References: <567B95CE.4000708@alum.mit.edu>,<567B9CF1.6030300@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: Without the TMP on the Nicolet MEMA ARGONE ANDA ARGTWO LASH 1 ANGA A+MA ARGONE A+MA ARGTWO ( or A+MM ARGTWO to save in ARGTWO ) The link bit isn't used by LASH or adds on the Nicolet. It is only the carry out of an add. It is a little more clumsy to use as a carry. It can only be used as a condition of a skip or execute. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Don North Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 11:21 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? On 12/23/2015 10:50 PM, Don North wrote: > On 12/23/2015 7:14 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: >>> Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ >>> altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. >>> >>> TAD ARGONE >>> AND ARGTWO >>> CLL RAL >>> CIA >>> TAD ARGONE >>> DCA ARGTWO >>> >>> This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, knowing >>> they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. >>> >> Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. > I think there was just a bit of brain fade in the original listing. From > DEC-08-FFAA-D PDP-8 Math Library circa 1968 > the XOR routine is as follows, transcribed to SIMH: > > sim> de 76 1234 > sim> de 77 4321 > sim> ie -m 100-107 > 100: CLA CLL > 101: TAD 76 > 102: AND 77 > 103: CIA > 104: CLL RAL > 105: TAD 76 > 106: TAD 77 > 107: HLT > sim> go 100 > > HALT instruction, PC: 00110 (AND 0) > sim> ex ac > AC: 5115 > > Which produces the correct result in the AC. Locations 103/104 were swapped in > order, and location 106 was left out. > And for completeness location 100 was added to initially clear the AC/Link. > > Don > FYI here is a link to find the document: http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/1,3191 I can't find it under dec/pdp8 on bitsavers, maybe I'm just not seeing it. Don From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Dec 24 03:10:22 2015 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:10:22 +0100 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? BONK In-Reply-To: <013201d13d85$c96502c0$5c2f0840$@gmail.com> References: <1450868816.1607.23.camel@agj.net> <013201d13d85$c96502c0$5c2f0840$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1450948222.1607.31.camel@agj.net> ons 2015-12-23 klockan 13:28 +0000 skrev Dave G4UGM: > Surely there is a copy of CalComp Host Computer Basic Software (HCBS) > around somewhere that talks to the XY11. After all the Calcomp is > pretty thick. All it can do is move 1 step at once, well it can do > diagonals as well, but pretty thick... > > Dave > G4UGM > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Stefan > > Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) > > Sent: 23 December 2015 11:07 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? > > > > > > > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly > > > > should draw a square and a rectangle. > > > > > > > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper > > > covers > > > using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly listings and > > > a > > > whole bunch of related stuff about scientific plotting. Also a > > > lot of > > > info on using the LPS- > > > 11 too. > > > There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an > > > excellent book and could be of use to you. > > > > > > Steve. > > > > > > > Boken finns i Ume? universitets boksamling (?ven p? > > fysikinstitutionen.) > > Det verkar inte finnas n?got exemplar i Uppsala d?remot. :-) Kastad > > ? > Sorry Dave, i replied in Swedish to the list, my answer was really directed to Mattis (and the other ?swedish speaking members....) It seems that in Swedish university libraries exists three examples (search thru libris.kb.se.) Mattis can borrow the book from Ume? thru ?Kungliga biblioteket i Kungstr?dg?rden (Stockholm.) Swedish libraries has an agreement to facilitate "fj?rrl?n" (remote borrowing.) From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 10:20:06 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:20:06 -0500 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56797836.4010906@gmail.com> On 12/20/2015 03:40 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > i used a product called Trio back in the day. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 20, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Mike Whalen wrote: >> >> Again not an integrated suite but there was also Multiplan, a spreadsheet >> for the C64 from Microsoft. >> >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan Thank you for the reply I would like a good spreadsheet to do my checkbook on and my savings also a word processor to wright my "Choose your own adventure CreepypastA on. Creepypasta not sure if ya know what that is so if not here is a link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creepypasta From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 22:28:53 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:28:53 -0600 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's the best I've got, Bob: ARG1, 5252 ARG2, 2525 XOR, CLA TAD ARG1 /~ARG1 & ARG2 CMA AND ARG2 MQL /STORE IN MQ TAD ARG2 /ARG1 & ~ARG2 CMA AND ARG1 MQA /MQ OR AC -> AC /RESULT IS 7777 IN AC You can also add them and subtract two times the arguments ANDed together, but I haven't played with that approach (yet). I did test the above code with a few different values, and it seems to work just fine. Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 22:43:54 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 22:43:54 -0600 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve Gibson talks about XOR on the PDP-8 here: https://www.grc.com/pdp-8/isp-musings.htm In summary, Steve uses this condensed code using "carryless addition" for XOR: CLA / clear accumulator (AC) since all we have is add! TAD ArgOne / add (TAD) ArgOne to the just-zeroed AC AND ArgTwo / AND ArgTwo to determine where the carrys will be CLL RAL / clear the LINK (CLL) and rotate the accumulator left (RAL) CMA IAC / compliment (CMA) & increment (IAC) the accumulator (negate) TAD ArgOne / add the first argument to the negated accumulator TAD ArgTwo / and add the second argument as well / the accumulator now contains the XOR of ArgOne & ArgTwo Best I can tell, Charles proposed the same thing, but for whatever reason changed the last instruction to DCA instead of TAD. Kyle From clasystems at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 23:39:04 2015 From: clasystems at gmail.com (CLASystems) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 00:39:04 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: > > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ > > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. > > > > TAD ARGONE > > AND ARGTWO > > CLL RAL > > CIA > > TAD ARGONE > ? ? > DCA ARGTWO ?OOPS! The LAST INSTRUCTION SHOULD BE TAD ARGTWO ! Starts with a clear AC, ends with AC containing argone .xor. argtwo. Neither argone nor argtwo are modified. Sorry, too much transcribing from notes about notes, etc. :-). This is a fragment from a larger topic about the TD8E. If you start with a CMA in front of the code and a CMA at then end, you have the ARGONE .EQU. ARGTWO, but that's even longer. The larger argument is that you need not calculate .equ. every 12 bits because on a DECtape, you can combine them halfs-wise at the end and then invert the six-bit result to write on the tape [or compare what you read from the running calculation as you read it. Thus, each word loop is two instructions shorter and you can combine if you are clever in about one extra instruction but 1 or more total cycles less [for a net gain of one instruction and a little bit of time at the most critical point and a bit more at the slightly less critical points. The original discussion is that since the TD8E is for the Omnibus only, why not see if the MQ can be helpful. It seems not in the end because it takes even longer ironically [and a few more instructions, etc.] However, BSW will likely help in that separate "sticky" point to some small extent. [The overall topic is beefing up a TD8E in every way possible to make the real-world tape [not the SIMH] be more free of tape/cleanliness/guide/wear/tape-wear issues that can make the wost-case jitter problems come dangerously close to failing. When all the hardware and media are new, it's less of a concern.. However, there are actual systems running the hardware and some predictable problems. I'm just pursuing the theoretical [and practical] software issues, etc. [Can't go up one "level" in why just yet; a few already know why, but that's all I am prepared to say for now.] cjl [I found one of my own posts on-line from back in the day, and was trying to pursue it.]? > > > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, > knowing > > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. > > > Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't > a clue what it does. > > What I have entered: > sim> ie -m 100-105 > 100: TAD 76 > 101: AND 77 > 102: CLL RAL > 103: CIA > 104: TAD 76 > 105: DCA 77 > > Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 1234 > 77: 4321 > > After running the above code sample: > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 1234 > 77: 0574 > > If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): > sim> ie 076-077 > 76: 4321 > 77: 3661 > > Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. > > Am I missing something blindingly obvious? > > > Cheers, > Christian > -- > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > STCKON08DS0 > Contact information available upon request. > -- "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" Bill Gates, 1992 From clasystems at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 00:19:09 2015 From: clasystems at gmail.com (CLASystems) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 01:19:09 -0500 Subject: Has Anyone Written PDP-8 .XOR. Code Using the MQ Register (Without the EAE)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One more factoid: Many who have DECtape drives do not run them at the final spec of relevant ECOs. The TD8E will work quite as well as it can on the hardware side, but only if you perform all lf the ECOs [or equivalent]. Some are volunteering their time to help document [and in some instances implemente!] some of the more common missing elements towards that goal.] DECtape started out so reliable, no one realized that it could get just enough unreliable to eventually become a "gotcha" unless you have the final spec. All of the following MIGHT apply to any particular TU55 or TU56 drive. ALL of these are fixable with some effort [that may require some cooperation to keep the community cost down to quite affordable: 1) There are three types of front wear plates:. The final is a ceramic in the exact shape as the oldest one made from soft steel. Either is fine; arguably the steel one is actually better in terms of maintenance because it can be polished nicely; the ceramic one can be somewhat cleaned by bathing in certain chemicals to remove the iron oxide buildup that gets INTO the pores of the ceramic, but that's mostly cosmetic, etc. What MUST be avoided is the dreaded mistake that was a major-step backwards: DUAL-SIDED ceramic wear plates. The smooth edge of the other two is replaced by a sharp chisel! It is known tp SHRED the tapes [and sometimes not so slowly!]. I doubt if it can be "blunted" enough to become smotth [it will likely crack apart] but soft steel can be bought; a good machinist can repro he old one, and perhaps by using slightly harder metal, can come up with one arguably better than either DEC original, etc. 2) Inside of the cover on the front of the guides is a small hole with a very coarse spring. The spring is to be OUTLAWED as it is the chief culprit in why everything else is screwed up [including the need to clean/polish the front wear plates as described in 1) above. Most newer TD8E-worthy TU56 fortunately have this changed: The backside of the front cover needs a flat-bottom larger but less-deep hole in a different place [the other hole can be ignored]. This is also a pretty straight-forward machine-shop job. Once that is established, there is a very "floppy" gentle-pushing spring that lowers the force pushing the tape rearward at the rear "cheek" plates [which can score them, see below]. This way, you avoid NEW damage to the tapes, the wear plates [and the rear cheek plates, but you cannot fix present damage this way, so this is still not complete]. 3) The wear plate is defined to have some definite number of thousandths of an inch it can push the tape rearwards. DEC wisely changed it to a bit more [maybe 12 thousandths more total travel, I am not a machinist to measure mill-smidgens, but some people can come up with this by comparing the before and after to get that exact to a macihinist's rule of thumb, etc. In any case, it's a straight-forward milling job and not all that much. [Note: Some guides are made of aluminum, while the spec is for steel, it's not as important to change the guides as it is to change this milling job being applied. Many older TU55 drives are all aluminum and the LINC/LINC-8 drives are all Aluminum. Steel if you have it is preferred, but is not on the list of things to be concerned about; all I mention here is [if your drive needs upgrade]. This allows the tapes to be "thinner" [slightly less than the nominal 3/4 inch wide] because DEC wanted SLIGHTLY damaged tapes to still be useable. [They realized they greatly screwed up from the beginning.] 4) The rear-cheek plates issue: All TU55 drives [and some very early TU56 drives have one-sided rear plates that cannot be swapped left to right and vice verse because it lacks a bevel. This is actually an opportunity! The newer plates were fflipable. the problem is that often field circus did just that, so you can have ruined on both sides guides. If you have the older plates, then get machining to create a virgin new surface. All dual-sided ones need to be evaluated. If you are lucky enough to have only damage on one sided, then just swap them after you do all of the above. They will score very, very slowly, easily 2-3 orders of magnitude lower with the floppy spring than with the old gross one, etc. Each damaged side of any plate has to be a one-off judgement call [actually both sides of any drive are likely in the same shape, good or bad]. It is possible there is the need to polish out the score line, but some are so bad, you may not be able to. Hopefully many will at least pass on one side,etc. We now have hard-anodize capability that didn't exist back then. So, after score-line issues and bevelling if necessary to create a new reverse side for the older ones, they need to be made "naked" and be placed into a modern anodizing bath. If there is no score line [such as on older drives' "back side" you have the best possible outcome. [But you cannott undo deep scores, agtan hopefully no one has deep scoring on both sides. Scoring may not be as bad as it looks. That's because the anodize scores first. Once it is naked metal, it might be polished out, YMMV 5) Roll pins versus dowel pins. If you encounter roll pins, throw them way [targets optional]. Replace with dowel pins [which are apparently not only available, they are cheap in boxes of 100, but any one drive only needs 8.] Share them with your drive-possessing friends. Past some point, they all have these. It makes taking the guides off and the ability to inspect the rear plates [and clean thoroughly] easy instead of a true nightmare. [You'll have to learn to curse at something else :-) ] All TU55 and TU56 are the same on all of the above issues [except where noted]. The heads are not involved [air bearings so the head never touches, but the tape does come close]. DO NOT take the heads off ever [unless you know and are prepared to deskew, an entirely different issue. Restoring things to what they were should mean no need to be concerned here, etc. For purists who get past all of the above,contact me for info about that more advanced subject.] Warning, there are drives in such poor condition out there that the knowledgable will NOT allow their tapes to be placed on them. But all drives can be fixed up with some effort. [I would say taking up a collection would get all happy if we organized. $25/head [that is a DECtape head :-)] is the figure I suggest; the more "generous" collectors can foot the rest of the bill. [Of course only a few are concerned with such as repro front wear plates, etc. Dowel pins are so cheap it doesn't matter much either way.] Tapes from a 1962 LINC can be read today on LINC/LINC-8 drives just fine. The all-Aluminum design has no front nor rear stuff, just a hand-made channel in an Aluminum block. [Note: The speed of the newer drives is 133 microseconds a word there. On the LINC/LINC-8 drives it's 160 microseconds and it is just effortlessly working [but you do need to buy new belts!]. DECtape/LINCtape is a great concept, but there were blunders along the way; it has held up surprisingly well since some tapes are nearly 54 years old now! [And ALL of the potential problems can be remedied.] [Now imagine running fully ECO'd TD8E and TU56 AND software beefed up all at the same time!] cjl On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 12:39 AM, CLASystems wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 10:14 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < > captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On 23 December 2015 at 13:44, CLASystems wrote: >> > Ironically, the shortest and fastest seems to be avoidance of the MQ >> > altogether [thus making it work on ANY model]. >> > >> > TAD ARGONE >> > AND ARGTWO >> > CLL RAL >> > CIA >> > TAD ARGONE >> > ? ? > > DCA ARGTWO > > ?OOPS! The LAST INSTRUCTION SHOULD BE TAD ARGTWO ! > > Starts with a clear AC, ends with AC containing argone .xor. argtwo. > Neither argone nor argtwo are modified. > > Sorry, too much transcribing from notes about notes, etc. :-). > > This is a fragment from a larger topic about the TD8E. If you start with > a CMA in front of the code and a CMA at then end, you have the ARGONE .EQU. > ARGTWO, but that's even longer. > > The larger argument is that you need not calculate .equ. every 12 bits > because on a DECtape, you can combine them halfs-wise at the end and then > invert the six-bit result to write on the tape [or compare what you read > from the running calculation as you read it. > > Thus, each word loop is two instructions shorter and you can combine if > you are clever in about one extra instruction but 1 or more total cycles > less [for a net gain of one instruction and a little bit of time at the > most critical point and a bit more at the slightly less critical points. > > The original discussion is that since the TD8E is for the Omnibus only, > why not see if the MQ can be helpful. It seems not in the end because it > takes even longer ironically [and a few more instructions, etc.] > > However, BSW will likely help in that separate "sticky" point to some > small extent. > > [The overall topic is beefing up a TD8E in every way possible to make the > real-world tape [not the SIMH] be more free of > tape/cleanliness/guide/wear/tape-wear issues that can make the wost-case > jitter problems come dangerously close to failing. When all the hardware > and media are new, it's less of a concern.. However, there are actual > systems running the hardware and some predictable problems. I'm just > pursuing the theoretical [and practical] software issues, etc. [Can't go > up one "level" in why just yet; a few already know why, but that's all I am > prepared to say for now.] > > cjl [I found one of my own posts on-line from back in the day, and was > trying to pursue it.]? > > > > >> > This works because .XOR. is addition ignoring the carry bits. So, >> knowing >> > they will happen, just allow them at first, then remove them. >> > >> Hmm, I just tried that in SIMH, and that doesn't XOR at all. I haven't >> a clue what it does. >> >> What I have entered: >> sim> ie -m 100-105 >> 100: TAD 76 >> 101: AND 77 >> 102: CLL RAL >> 103: CIA >> 104: TAD 76 >> 105: DCA 77 >> >> Locations 076 and 077 being ARGONE and ARGTWO respectively, at the start: >> sim> ie 076-077 >> 76: 1234 >> 77: 4321 >> >> After running the above code sample: >> sim> ie 076-077 >> 76: 1234 >> 77: 0574 >> >> If we "flip" ARGONE and ARGTWO's values (to 4321 and 1234 respectively): >> sim> ie 076-077 >> 76: 4321 >> 77: 3661 >> >> Neither of those is the expected 5115 of an XOR operation. >> >> Am I missing something blindingly obvious? >> >> >> Cheers, >> Christian >> -- >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove >> STCKON08DS0 >> Contact information available upon request. >> > > > > -- > "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" > > Bill Gates, 1992 > -- "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" Bill Gates, 1992 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 04:16:00 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:16:00 -0000 Subject: XY11 Manual, Anyone? BONK In-Reply-To: <1450948222.1607.31.camel@agj.net> References: <1450868816.1607.23.camel@agj.net> <013201d13d85$c96502c0$5c2f0840$@gmail.com> <1450948222.1607.31.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <021001d13e34$170a0850$451e18f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stefan > Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) > Sent: 24 December 2015 09:10 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? BONK > > ons 2015-12-23 klockan 13:28 +0000 skrev Dave G4UGM: > > Surely there is a copy of CalComp Host Computer Basic Software (HCBS) > > around somewhere that talks to the XY11. After all the Calcomp is > > pretty thick. All it can do is move 1 step at once, well it can do > > diagonals as well, but pretty thick... > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Stefan Skoglund (lokal anv?ndare) > > > Sent: 23 December 2015 11:07 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: XY11 Manual, Anyone? > > > > > > > > > > > Then for software I found a diagnostic, XXYAD0 that supposedly > > > > > should draw a square and a rectangle. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone know of other drawing software that uses the XY11 > > > > > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > The book 'The Minicomputer in the Laboratory' by James W Cooper > > > > covers using an X-Y plotter with an 11/05, and has assembly > > > > listings and a whole bunch of related stuff about scientific > > > > plotting. Also a lot of info on using the LPS- > > > > 11 too. > > > > There are plenty of copies out there and quite cheap too. It's an > > > > excellent book and could be of use to you. > > > > > > > > Steve. > > > > > > > > > > Boken finns i Ume? universitets boksamling (?ven p? > > > fysikinstitutionen.) > > > Det verkar inte finnas n?got exemplar i Uppsala d?remot. :-) Kastad > > > ? > > > > Sorry Dave, i replied in Swedish to the list, my answer was really directed to > Mattis (and the other swedish speaking members....) > > It seems that in Swedish university libraries exists three examples (search > thru libris.kb.se.) Mattis can borrow the book from Ume? thru > Kungliga biblioteket i Kungstr?dg?rden (Stockholm.) > > Swedish libraries has an agreement to facilitate "fj?rrl?n" (remote > borrowing.) We have the same facility in the UK. Its called an Inter-Library Loan. Costs a couple of dollars... Dave G4UGM From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 09:59:51 2015 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 10:59:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 20:56:51 -0600 > From: Jay Jaeger > Subject: Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM > Message-ID: <567A0D73.2010304 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > I have an image of MAINDEC-12-D8CD-PB, and a listing as well > (MDEC-12-D8CD-L in my inventory). Let me know if you need them as well > as the drawings (see below). It is in an archive folder with a bunch of > other interesting PDP-12/PDP-8 stuff. > I wrote a program to export a BIN formatted file from a LINCtape image so we were able to make a BIN image of MAINDEC-12-D8CD. This runs OK, where the D8CC does not. Can you give me a pointer to the SerialDisk info? Sounds interesting. > Kyle's SerialDisk is here: https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver > Hopefully you can actually fix the original M160 and M103 cards. > We have been able to fix all types of broken flip-chips. Sourcing the components is sometimes a challenge. The Germanium transistors for the TU20 on the PDP-9 were hard to find. > > > > We found that the maintenance prints that came with the system do not > > include ECO EM12-0055. > > Does anyone have a set of KW12 prints that include ECO EM12-0055? > The prints that came with this PDP-12 are here: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp12/maintenance/DEC-12-HR2B-D_PDP-12_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_2_Installation_and_Maintenance_Jun72.pdf Now that I looked in the ECO block I can see that they actually do incorporate ECOs 55 and 57. The machine wiring does not match the CLC page, so maybe there are more recent ECOs in the machine and not in the prints. We visited the RCS/RI crew last weekend and used their PDP-12 to format some LINCtapes. At least we have some freshly formatted, known good, LINCtapes for the TC12 debugging. Jay, we are interested in anything PDP-12 related that we don't have. The PDP-12 is described here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12 Details on the PDP-12 restoration process are here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration -- Michael Thompson From cube1 at charter.net Thu Dec 24 13:22:38 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 13:22:38 -0600 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567C45FE.3020702@charter.net> On 12/24/2015 9:59 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > We have been able to fix all types of broken flip-chips. Sourcing the > components is sometimes a challenge. The Germanium transistors for the TU20 > on the PDP-9 were hard to find. > I remember replacing a germanium (at least I think it was) transistor on an SMS card with an ordinary silicon transistor in a 7094-II floating point unit back around 1974. Luckily, that worked fine, though for a museum I imagine one would prefer to use the "real thing". ;) > >>> >>> We found that the maintenance prints that came with the system do not >>> include ECO EM12-0055. >>> Does anyone have a set of KW12 prints that include ECO EM12-0055? >> > > The prints that came with this PDP-12 are here: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp12/maintenance/DEC-12-HR2B-D_PDP-12_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_2_Installation_and_Maintenance_Jun72.pdf ??? That document is not prints. I suspect you meant: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp12/maintenance/DEC-12-HR1B-D_PDP-12_Maintenance_Manual_Volume_III_System_Drawings_Jun72.pdf Which is the same revision as mine. (I see that the 1969 edition is also there, but under the name PDP12-MaintVol3_SchemsMar69.pdf). > > Jay, we are interested in anything PDP-12 related that we don't have. > Eventually I expect I will, over the next few years, scan in everything that is not already on bitsavers, but it looks like your current needs have been met. > The PDP-12 is described here: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12 > > Details on the PDP-12 restoration process are here: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-12/dec-pdp-12-restoration > JRJ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 13:57:19 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 11:57:19 -0800 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Then in the progress list, it shows: > > Configure LAN interfaces .................... [FAIL] * > Check LAN Status .............................. [N/A ] > [...] > Configure HP Ethernet interfaces ......... [ OK ] > Configure HP 100BT interfaces ............ [N/A ] > Configure LAN interfaces ..................... [ OK ] > > Network hardware not usable - Is the network connected? > > I think the Ethernet ports on this beast are dead. :-( > > I'm not sure whether it's the CPU board or the I/O board that is dead, > but Keysight, or whoever they are this week, wants more money for > either of those boards than eBay pricing for a used 16700A or 16702A. I've never had a 16700 series fail that way before, at least not yet. I've had a couple of 16600 series CPU / interface boards that have failed being able to communicate with the logic acquisition board. Those are almost identical CPU / interface boards to the 16700 series. No real surprise that Keysight would want way more for a replacement board than the current market value for a complete used mainframe. That's pretty much the way it always works. If you look around you could probably find a complete working 16700A or 16700B shipped to you for $100 or less. Then either use them with an external monitor instead of your 16702A, or transplant the 16700A parts into your 16702A if you want to keep using the built-in LCD monitor. I have one 16700A that no longer powers on. If just the power supply is dead I might consider parting out the CPU and interface boards. -Glen (One thing that is interesting on the 16700 CPU board are an MP9914FNL, 75ALS160, 75ALS164, and an unused 24-pin connector. I wonder if there is GPIB capability hidden in the system.) From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 15:47:09 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:47:09 -0500 Subject: Seasons greetings Message-ID: To all readers/followers of this website - for those who love classic/vintage computers - I want to wish all the best of the holiday season no matter what your beliefs. In this day of political correctness it is simply to acknowledge Mother Nature's transition from fall to winter and we should take time from our busy schedules to reflect on this 'special' time of the year. Happy computing! Murray :) From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 24 15:54:19 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 13:54:19 -0800 Subject: UA11 boards Message-ID: Hi, I know it?s been a while (a long while) since I last posted about ordering new UA11 boards. I just placed an order for 25 boards. To get the best price I did a ?4 week turn? which means that I should be receiving the boards by the end of January. I?m only doing bare boards this time, so what you?ll get is a board and a set of printed documentation (which is also available at: http://www.shiresoft.com/downloads/docs/ua11/UA11%20Manual.pdf). I just looked at the documentation and the address and phone numbers are old (so don?t try and use them!). I?ll try and get the documentation updated with current information before I ship any boards. The cost will be less than what?s posted on the website, I won?t have exact numbers until I receive the boards however I expect to charge ~$100/ea + shipping. I?ll let everyone know when the boards arrive, but feel free to email me (off list please!) if you?d like to reserve one (or more!). Do not send any payment until I have boards in hand! Have a Merry Christmas (or whatever your preferred holiday this time of year is)! TTFN - Guy From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 24 15:58:41 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 15:58:41 -0600 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <567C45FE.3020702@charter.net> References: <567C45FE.3020702@charter.net> Message-ID: <567C6A91.6090502@pico-systems.com> On 12/24/2015 01:22 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 12/24/2015 9:59 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > >> We have been able to fix all types of broken flip-chips. Sourcing the >> components is sometimes a challenge. The Germanium transistors for the TU20 >> on the PDP-9 were hard to find. >> > I remember replacing a germanium (at least I think it was) transistor on > an SMS card with an ordinary silicon transistor in a 7094-II floating > point unit back around 1974. Luckily, that worked fine, though for a > museum I imagine one would prefer to use the "real thing". ;) > > Yes, I overhauled an old HP digital frequency synthesizer that was all built out of PNP Germanium transistors (no ICs.) I substituted the first one with a VHF Silicon transistor and did some tests on the bias, etc. and was pleased to find it was a total drop-in replacement. I replaced over 10 of them in that unit, and they all worked flawlessly. I can imagine some difficult circuits where you couldn't get away with this, maybe a magnetic read amp or a timing circuit or something, but I think in most cases a Silicon transistor will work well. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 24 16:01:07 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:01:07 -0600 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567C6B23.7030802@pico-systems.com> On 12/24/2015 01:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 11:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Then in the progress list, it shows: >> >> Configure LAN interfaces .................... [FAIL] * >> Check LAN Status .............................. [N/A ] >> [...] >> Configure HP Ethernet interfaces ......... [ OK ] >> Configure HP 100BT interfaces ............ [N/A ] >> Configure LAN interfaces ..................... [ OK ] >> >> Network hardware not usable - Is the network connected? >> >> I think the Ethernet ports on this beast are dead. :-( >> >> If this uses an AUI cable to an Ethernet tap, it is possible the diags don't work without something connected to the AUI cable. Just totally guessing! Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 24 16:04:10 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 14:04:10 -0800 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <567C6A91.6090502@pico-systems.com> References: <567C45FE.3020702@charter.net> <567C6A91.6090502@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <65A7672F-5769-428D-876F-222D9FA69E2E@cs.ubc.ca> On 2015-Dec-24, at 1:58 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/24/2015 01:22 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 12/24/2015 9:59 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> >>> We have been able to fix all types of broken flip-chips. Sourcing the >>> components is sometimes a challenge. The Germanium transistors for the TU20 >>> on the PDP-9 were hard to find. >>> >> I remember replacing a germanium (at least I think it was) transistor on >> an SMS card with an ordinary silicon transistor in a 7094-II floating >> point unit back around 1974. Luckily, that worked fine, though for a >> museum I imagine one would prefer to use the "real thing". ;) >> >> > Yes, I overhauled an old HP digital frequency synthesizer that was all built out of PNP Germanium transistors (no ICs.) I substituted the first one with a VHF Silicon transistor and did some tests on the bias, etc. and was pleased to find it was a total drop-in replacement. I replaced over 10 of them in that unit, and they all worked flawlessly. > > I can imagine some difficult circuits where you couldn't get away with this, maybe a magnetic read amp or a timing circuit or something, but I think in most cases a Silicon transistor will work well. Similarly, I've replaced Ge with common Si in repairs of 60s-era discrete-component equipment and had no problems. From jason at smbfc.net Thu Dec 24 16:31:08 2015 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seasons greetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Dec 2015, Murray McCullough wrote: > To all readers/followers of this website - for those who love > classic/vintage computers - I want to wish all the best of the holiday > season no matter what your beliefs. In this day of political > correctness it is simply to acknowledge Mother Nature's transition > from fall to winter and we should take time from our busy schedules to > reflect on this 'special' time of the year. > > Happy computing! > > Murray :) > And to you! Today was a work from home day. I used the opportunity to have my Atari running as an auxillary terminal to do some real work on. http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomupting/atari800/AtariTerminal_sm.jpg -- Jason Sent from my Atari 800 From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 16:45:40 2015 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:45:40 -0600 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > Kyle's SerialDisk is here: https://github.com/drovak/os8diskserver I just pushed some changes earlier. Hopefully I didn't break too many things! :) The system handler now has support for FRTS. Still need to add support for older machines (I intend to add separate handlers but still maintain compatibility with the same server). Congrats on the great progress, Michael! Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 18:05:07 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 17:05:07 -0700 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > If you look around you could probably find a complete working 16700A > or 16700B shipped to you for $100 or less. Then either use them with > an external monitor instead of your 16702A, or transplant the 16700A > parts into your 16702A if you want to keep using the built-in LCD > monitor. Actually the LCD monitor in the 16702A was dead when I got it, which was probably why I got a good deal. Since the resolution of the LCD is so low, it's much more usable with an external monitor anyhow. I just wish that there was a setting for 1600x1200 at 60Hz, or that there was a way to set up the "custom" display setting. > I have one 16700A that no longer powers on. If just the power supply > is dead I might consider parting out the CPU and interface boards. I have a 16701A that doesn't power up. I haven't yet tried to sort that out. I haven't really ever need more than five acquisition cards. > (One thing that is interesting on the 16700 CPU board are an > MP9914FNL, 75ALS160, 75ALS164, and an unused 24-pin connector. I > wonder if there is GPIB capability hidden in the system.) Are those chips actually loaded? Maybe they used them for manufacturing test? I did think that one of the things they screwed up on the 16700 series was not supporting HP-IB and the command set of the 16500 series. Don't even get me started on the 16900 series, though. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 24 18:41:54 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:41:54 -0800 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567C90D2.4020406@sydex.com> On 12/24/2015 04:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Don't even get me started on the 16900 series, though. For the time, they were pretty advanced, especially in comparison to the likes of Biomation or Tek 'scope plug-ins. I don't think it's fair to grouse about them, wishing that they were something that they're not. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 18:59:44 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 16:59:44 -0800 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> (One thing that is interesting on the 16700 CPU board are an >> MP9914FNL, 75ALS160, 75ALS164, and an unused 24-pin connector. I >> wonder if there is GPIB capability hidden in the system.) > > Are those chips actually loaded? Maybe they used them for manufacturing test? Yep, they're present on every board I've seen. They're in the upper right hand corner on the bottom of the main CPU board in these pictures, next to the N82503 Dual Serial Transceiver. 16700A Logic Analyzer Circuit Boards (Two Fan Version) https://goo.gl/photos/v9XK2Grc1aCaHGS3A 16700A Logic Analyzer Circuit Boards (Three Fan Version) https://goo.gl/photos/ZTDG9VgBvrvJocaQA 16700B Logic Analyzer Circuit Boards https://goo.gl/photos/JLTTGy6yDPngDKqF6 From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 19:17:58 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 18:17:58 -0700 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: <567C90D2.4020406@sydex.com> References: <567C90D2.4020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 24, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/24/2015 04:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Don't even get me started on the 16900 series, though. > For the time, they were pretty advanced, especially in comparison to the > likes of Biomation or Tek 'scope plug-ins. I don't think it's fair to > grouse about them, wishing that they were something that they're not. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The 16900 series is (last I heard?) the current generation of logic analyzer mainframes. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 24 19:51:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 17:51:37 -0800 Subject: HP 16702A logic analyzer failed Ethernet (was Re: dumping Western Digital Microms) In-Reply-To: References: <567C90D2.4020406@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567CA129.3070901@sydex.com> On 12/24/2015 05:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The 16900 series is > (last I heard?) the current generation of logic analyzer mainframes. My bad--I misread it as "16000". Damned type fonts and bad eyes... It's what, Keysight, used to be Agilent, used to be HP? Wonder what Bill and Dave would have thought about the latest round of slicing and dicing.... --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 24 20:15:20 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 20:15:20 -0600 Subject: Merry Christmas Message-ID: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas. Best, Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Dec 24 21:00:47 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2015 22:00:47 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas Message-ID: <6ce691.24204b9c.43ae0b5f@aol.com> Yes and a Marry Christmas to you and yours Jay! Ed# In a message dated 12/24/2015 7:15:45 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a Merry Christmas. Best, Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 02:56:47 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 01:56:47 -0700 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) Message-ID: The first cut at a microcode disassembler for the CP16xx/WD21xx chipsets, written in Python 3, is now on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/cp16dis The disassembler uses hexadecimal, in C notation, rather than octal as used by DEC. Branch targets are labeled as L with the three-digit hex address. The disassembler doesn't know about branch targets only reached from the control chip translation PLA. The disassembler probably needs a lot of work to be truly usable. It does not even attempt to produce code that could be assembled by DEC's "MICRO" microassembler that is in the KUV11 writable control store support software, or any other assembler or microassembler. (I don't have the KUV11 support software, but would *really* like to obtain a copy!) The register names decoded are specific to the LSI-11 microcode. I don't yet know what the Pascal Microengine registers are used for, so I don't have suitable names for them. Here's an excerpt from the LSI-11 microcode at address 0x018 where you can see one of the techniques for a computed jump, with entry occuring at 0x20: L018: jmp L101 ;018: 000101 jmp L161 ;019: 000161 jmp L192 ;01a: 000192 jmp L0f5 ;01b: 0000f5 jmp L0a5 ;01c: 0000a5 jmp L19e ;01d: 00019e jmp L192 ;01e: 000192 jmp L192 ;01f: 000192 mi RIRL,RIRH ;020: 00ec89 jmp L018 ;021: 000018 This is used by an implicit jump caused by the translation array in the control chip to location 0x20. The mi instruction causes the instruction register (RIRH) to be OR'd into both bytes of the next microinstruction, which is a jump to L018. Presumably before jumping to the mi, all of the bits of the instruction register have been masked off, except for the least significant three. It's also possible that it's been shifted before masking. Also possible, not all of the bits might be masked off, and there might be more of the jump table elsewhere, depending on those bits. Note that if the most significant five bits are not masked off, this could even change the jump instruction at 0x21 to a different kind of instruction. Eric From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:10:28 2015 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 04:10:28 -0500 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00de01d13ef4$19382fb0$4ba88f10$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Friday, December 25, 2015 3:57 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) The first cut at a microcode disassembler for the CP16xx/WD21xx chipsets, written in Python 3, is now on github: ... The disassembler probably needs a lot of work to be truly usable. It does not even attempt to produce code that could be assembled by DEC's "MICRO" microassembler that is in the KUV11 writable control store support software, or any other assembler or microassembler. (I don't have the KUV11 support software, but would *really* like to obtain a copy!) ... Eric ----- See this thread: http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=138015259927217&w=2 Report back with your findings :->! paul From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:25:14 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 02:25:14 -0700 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: <00de01d13ef4$19382fb0$4ba88f10$@gmail.com> References: <00de01d13ef4$19382fb0$4ba88f10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > Report back with your findings :->! OK. I'm really much more interested in the Pascal Microengine firmware, but I'm starting with the LSI-11 because it's the same chipset and better documented, so I can more easily gain practical experience with its microcode, then move on the the PM. At first I thought the microinstruction example in my previous email was to decode the 000000-000007 (octal) instructions, which are HALT, WAIT, RTI, BPT, IOT, RESET, RTT, and unused. That's possible, and it may make sense that RTI and RTT jump to the same routine, but it seems unlikely that the unused opcode should jump there. From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:31:55 2015 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 02:31:55 -0700 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567D0D0B.80407@gmail.com> On 12/25/2015 1:56 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > The disassembler probably needs a lot of work to be truly usable. It > does not even attempt to produce code that could be assembled by > DEC's "MICRO" microassembler that is in the KUV11 writable control > store support software, or any other assembler or microassembler. (I > don't have the KUV11 support software, but would *really* like to > obtain a copy!) I'm not sure that this is any help, but... The DEC "micro.exe" microassembler was also used to build the KS10 microcode. The source code and executable is available on tape from: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ksu2_130/index.html I've used it to rebuild the KS10 microcode from source. Rob Doyle. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:37:03 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 02:37:03 -0700 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: <567D0D0B.80407@gmail.com> References: <567D0D0B.80407@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 2:31 AM, Rob Doyle wrote: > I'm not sure that this is any help, but... > The DEC "micro.exe" microassembler was also used to build the KS10 > microcode. The source code and executable is available on tape from: Thanks. I've used that one before, but despite the name it's an entirely different one from the one used on RT11 for the LSI-11. They aren't even similar. I'll most likely write a microassembler for the CP16xx/WD21xx chipset in Python at some point. For another project, I'm working on a Python implementation of the AMDASM microassembler, which was commonly used for designs based on the Am2901, Am2903, and Am29203, though it wasn't really in any way specific to those parts. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 03:36:34 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 09:36:34 -0000 Subject: S/36 for sale. Also AS/400 - Greenville, SC Message-ID: <021101d13ef7$beaa6fa0$3bff4ee0$@gmail.com> Not sure if folks on here follow the Vintage Forums. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?50494-Complete-IBM-Sy stem-36-with-AS-400-Advanced-36-tower-and-IBM-4234-Dot-Band-Printer Dave G4UGM From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Dec 25 07:15:27 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 14:15:27 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <024701d13dbd$bfc75500$3f55ff00$@ntlworld.com> References: <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> <024701d13dbd$bfc75500$3f55ff00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151225131527.GB2758@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > Good news! It looks like I have managed to get this working again. I > realised I had not checked the electrolytic capacitors on the main logic > board, ones situated far from the main power output boards. I found one > which had a higher ESR than two other identical ones, although the ESR was > still theoretically OK according to the table on my meter it was at the > limit, so I replaced it and the PSU now appears to work. It really goes to > show, *all* electrolytic capacitors should be checked. Picture showing the > one I replaced here: http://1drv.ms/1PlfKIV. > > Interestingly, I had had a similar failure in another of these PSUs, which I > handed to a friend along with a VAX 4000-300 I gave him, in the hope that > he would be able to fix it. As that PSU was already partially dismantled > from my previous investigations, I asked to borrow it back for the purposes > of doing the reverse engineering. I noticed that the same capacitor on that > PSU also has a higher ESR, but again within range of what should be OK. So, > looks like I might try this as a fix for the second bad PSU too, if he is OK > with me trying that. > > Regards > > Rob This Capacitor was bad in my PSU too and I've changed it. So finally, what was wrong with my idea that you sould simply change all reachable electrolytic capacitors in that PSU to get it working again? In my Eyes it really isn't worth the effort of testing each one, change them all to get that thing working halfways reliable again, it is an really bad desing anyways... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From j at ckrubin.us Fri Dec 25 07:52:05 2015 From: j at ckrubin.us (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:52:05 +0000 Subject: Massive document depository Message-ID: This was shared on the TekScopes mailing list - http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/ "Massive" is an understatement. Jack From jonas at otter.se Fri Dec 25 10:12:38 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 17:12:38 +0100 Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs In-Reply-To: <01aa01d13d01$fd386c10$f7a94430$@gmail.com> References: <02bf01d13a9d$92e913c0$b8bb3b40$@gmail.com> <033d01d13b4e$56c209e0$04461da0$@gmail.com> <71dd874d94289d4394827b2c6ad2be62.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <006801d13b77$e71a9100$b54fb300$@gmail.com> <5679C1E7.30000@otter.se> <01aa01d13d01$fd386c10$f7a94430$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <567D6AF6.5090304@otter.se> On 2015-12-22 22:44, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jonas >> Otter >> Sent: 22 December 2015 21:35 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >> >> On 2015-12-20 23:43, Dave Wade wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>> steven at malikoff.com >>>> Sent: 20 December 2015 22:23 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> >>>> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>> >>>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>>> ---------------------------- >>>> Subject: RE: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>> From: "Dave Wade" >>>> Date: Mon, December 21, 2015 3:46 am >>>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ----- >>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>>>>> steven at malikoff.com >>>>>> Sent: 20 December 2015 02:10 >>>>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>>>>> Subject: Re: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ---------------------------- Original Message >>>>>> ---------------------------- >>>>>> Subject: EAI TR-10 Patch Plugs >>>>>> From: "Dave Wade" >>>>>> Date: Sun, December 20, 2015 6:41 am >>>>>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts'" > >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ----- >>>>>> >>>>>>> Folks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I own an EAI TR-10 analog computer which sadly came without any >>>>>>> patch cables and accessories. Normally this wouldn't be a problem, >>>>>>> BUT the >>>>>>> TR-10 comes with special resistive plugs which go at the ends of >>>>>>> the patch leads. These have a 4mm plug and socket with a 10k or >>>>>>> 100k resistor in between. I can't figure out a way to easily >>>>>>> fabricate replacements. I can easily obtain 4mm plugs and sockets, >>>>>>> and solder a resistor between them, but when I try and mount them >>>>>>> on a short rigid tube all my efforts fail. The plug and socket >>>>>>> need to be twisted in opposite >>>>>> directions and any soldered joint just fails. >>>>>>> Any usggestions? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does any one have some of these and if so how are they >> constructed? >>>>>>> Dave Wade >>>>>>> G4UGM >>>>>>> >>>>>> Would you be able to put up some photos of what you have, an >>>>>> original, and with a ruler included for scale? >>>>>> >>>>> I don't have anything! The last picture on this page shows the >>>>> items:- >>>>> >>>>> http://www.analogmuseum.org/english/collection/eai/tr10/ >>>>> >>>>> and the plugs on these are standard "4mm" wander plugs, so the part >>>> containing the resistor must be about 1" to 1.5" long. There is a 4mm >>>> socket in the end and either a 1k or 10k resistor. >>>>> Dave >>>> Ah, ok, now I get it. Could you use two of the banana jack barrels, >>>> cut in half (machine them would be better) so that they can be >>>> contrarotated, then superglue or solvent glue the seam when tightened >> against eachother? >>> If I cut them with a saw I end up with a gap. SuperGlue does not gap > fill. I >> am kind of leaning towards casting resin.... >>>> Steve. >>> >> Actually, super glue does gap fill. Use the thick stuff and sprinkle > baking soda >> on the glue after applying. It will set rock hard instantly. >> The plastic model crowd use this for gap filling instead of putty > sometimes. > > That the stuff they call Gorilla Glue or is that something else? > >> Jonas > Gorilla Glue is polyurethane I think. I mean the thick viscosity type of cyanoacrylate glue you can buy for instance in hobby shops, like this stuff: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__7174__HobbyKing_Super_Glue_CA_50g_1_7oz_Thick.html It doesn't really matter which brand, what you want is cyanoacrylate and not the runny kind. Any decent shop selling models should have it, or a Games Workshop store (I think it is the preferred glue for building Warhammer figures). Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Dec 25 10:22:48 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 17:22:48 +0100 Subject: Nuts & Volts ESR Meter In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d13cfd$12298b40$367ca1c0$@xs4all.nl> <5679C0B8.1040904@sydex.com> <5679C3E7.5090606@alum.mit.edu> <5679CBDE.3000400@charter.net> Message-ID: <567D6D58.2040209@otter.se> On 2015-12-23 17:13, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Jay Jaeger Sent: Tuesday, > December 22, 2015 11:17 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Nuts & > Volts ESR Meter > FYI, the January 2016 issue of Nuts & Volts magazine has an ESR meter. > It uses a 1ma panel meter, but of course one could substitute a resistor > and use a voltmeter or a multi-meter with a 1ma scale as well. > > http://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine > > (Though I see the January issue is not there yet). > > It also looks like one can get a 3 month complementary subscription via > the URL http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts . > > The digital edition is well worth subscribing. > > Better yet, if you subscribe for at least 1 year you can be on their > "Preferred Subscriber Network" (no extra charge - just a check-box when > you subscribe) which gives you access to *all* the "digital archived" > (which I found to be PDFs) issues !! > > (BTW, Everyday Practical Electronics, EPE, lost me as a subscriber when > they did away with ordinary PDFs and instead have this odd locked thing > with a plug-in. I refuse to subscribe to an online edition of a > magazine where I cannot be assured of permanent access to the issues I > paid for! I don't find their "EPE PDF" version with its plug-in to be > acceptable. I seem to recall that they restricted printing such that > one could not simply print it to a PDF either. Too bad.). > > JRJ > > --------- > > Thanks for this post Jay. > On the Viperpits forum I received a digital issue (PDF) some 8 months > ago. > I remember it was fun reading, even if I was not planning on building it. > Thanks also for the hint "Preferred Subscriber Network" - I > checkmarked it! > > I subscribed just a few minutes ago. My first issue will be February > 2016. > I have not yet checked, but with the "Preferred Subscriber Network", > I hope to have lots of reading stuff during the season's holidays. > Hmmm, as if I had nothing else to do :-/ > > The list may have a lot of chatter, but the "Delete" key is always within > reach. But your post is exactly one of the reasons to stay aboard! > > Thanks Jay! > - Henk > > Here is a link to an ESR meter project: http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html I think Manfred may well be a member here. A while back I invented my own ESR meter, it is not hard at all. Essentially an ESR meter is an oscillator which puts out something like 50-100 kHz or so, buffered and divided down to a couple of hundred millivolts (so that you can measure in-circuit without any PN junctions conducting and causing errors). That voltage goes across the capacitor under test, and parallel to the capacitor is a detector which measures the AC voltage across the capacitor. You then calibrate the meter by substituting known resistors for the capacitor under test and marking the dial of the meter appropriately. Manfred's design puts the capacitor in series with a known resistor instead, making the scale read in the other direction. There are lots of ESR meter designs on the net. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Dec 25 11:06:58 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:06:58 +0100 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault Message-ID: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Terry Stewart >> Verzonden: dinsdag 22 december 2015 21:50 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault >> >> Hi, >> >> I've written up my recent third Apple II repair, this time an Apple IIe. >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-22-appleiIIe-no-video.htm >> >> One interesting aspect of this repair is that piggy-backing a logic chip helped >> confirm a faulty one. I'd only ever used this technique with RAM. >> I'm sure it only works if the chip has a particular type of fault, but it worked this >> time for me. >> >> Terry (Tez) > > I use a HP 10529A logic comparator on regular basis for fault finding in ttl circuits. > It compares a reference chip with the CUT (Chip under test;) it's a very nice diagnostic tool. > It's a bit like piggy backing just a little more sophisticated :0 > > -Rik In my experience, the type of socket you used is quite unreliable and will tend to develop bad contacts. There is a reason they are cheap... I would use a turned pin type socket instead, e g an Augat socket. They will not let you down. More expensive, but considering the work involved in replacing a socket and the risk of messing up the PCB, the cost is negligible. Jonas From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 25 11:32:19 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 17:32:19 +0000 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> Message-ID: > In my experience, the type of socket you used is quite unreliable and > will tend to develop bad contacts. There is a reason they are cheap... I > would use a turned pin type socket instead, e g an Augat socket. They > will not let you down. More expensive, but considering the work involved > in replacing a socket and the risk of messing up the PCB, the cost is > negligible. My feeling is that for the sort of things most of us do here, a turned pin socket is the most reliable of all. Yes, soldering the IC directly may have a (slightly) lower risk of bad connections, but given that we do (or at least I do) component level repairs, may want to remove ICs for testing, etc, there is a risk to the PCB if the IC is soldered directly. As you say, cheap sockets are cheap for a reason. They do develop bad contacts! I don't think I've ever had a problem due to a bad contact at a turned pin socket. Not saying they can't happen, but it's very rare. I use nothing else, both for prototyping and for repairs. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 25 12:47:13 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:47:13 +0000 Subject: Massive document depository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awsome! Merry Chistmas Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jack Rubin Sent: Friday, December 25, 2015 5:52 AM To: Classic Computer List (cctalk at classiccmp.org); ChiClassicCom (chiclassiccomp at yahoogroups.com) Subject: Massive document depository This was shared on the TekScopes mailing list - http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/ "Massive" is an understatement. Jack From jason at textfiles.com Fri Dec 25 12:50:23 2015 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:50:23 -0500 Subject: Massive document depository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the tip, Jack. On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > This was shared on the TekScopes mailing list - > > http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/ > > "Massive" is an understatement. > > Jack > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 25 12:56:31 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:56:31 +0000 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se>, Message-ID: Years ago, we had EPROMs walk out of machine pin sockets from vibration when the leads still had the out bent pins for auto machine inserters. The problem when away when we straightened the pins. Since then, I don't use one of those IC inserters on machine pin sockets. I always first straighten the pins and manually insert them. The IC inserters work well when doing PC boards and solder. I never really understood why they'd walk out. With the tension outward, you'd think it would pull them in tighter. After several times putting them back in, we found no more problems with straightened pins. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of tony duell Sent: Friday, December 25, 2015 9:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault > In my experience, the type of socket you used is quite unreliable and > will tend to develop bad contacts. There is a reason they are cheap... I > would use a turned pin type socket instead, e g an Augat socket. They > will not let you down. More expensive, but considering the work involved > in replacing a socket and the risk of messing up the PCB, the cost is > negligible. My feeling is that for the sort of things most of us do here, a turned pin socket is the most reliable of all. Yes, soldering the IC directly may have a (slightly) lower risk of bad connections, but given that we do (or at least I do) component level repairs, may want to remove ICs for testing, etc, there is a risk to the PCB if the IC is soldered directly. As you say, cheap sockets are cheap for a reason. They do develop bad contacts! I don't think I've ever had a problem due to a bad contact at a turned pin socket. Not saying they can't happen, but it's very rare. I use nothing else, both for prototyping and for repairs. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 13:29:26 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 11:29:26 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> Message-ID: <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> On 12/25/2015 09:32 AM, tony duell wrote: > My feeling is that for the sort of things most of us do here, a > turned pin socket is the most reliable of all. Yes, soldering the IC > directly may have a (slightly) lower risk of bad connections, but > given that we do (or at least I do) component level repairs, may want > to remove ICs for testing, etc, there is a risk to the PCB if the IC > is soldered directly. As you say, cheap sockets are cheap for a > reason. They do develop bad contacts! One recalls those execrable low-profile cheap sockets from TI in the early 70s. Horrible stuff. Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? I don't recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track record of wire-wrapped designs that says something, surely. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 13:41:27 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 14:41:27 -0500 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? I don't > recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track record of wire-wrapped > designs that says something, surely. No, some were not machined. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 25 13:38:42 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 19:38:42 +0000 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> , <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > One recalls those execrable low-profile cheap sockets from TI in the > early 70s. Horrible stuff. Those were about the worst! > Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? I > don't recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track record of > wire-wrapped designs that says something, surely. I have certainly seen, and may even still have, some formed-pin (i.e. not turned pin) wire-wrap DIL sockets. I have no intention of every using them though! -tony From radiotest at juno.com Fri Dec 25 13:47:45 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 14:47:45 -0500 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151225144608.03e2a6e0@juno.com> At 12:06 PM 12/25/2015, Jonas Otter wrote: >I would use a turned pin type socket instead, e g an Augat socket. For decades I have used Augat sockets for mission-critical applications. I have never had a contact failure where they are used. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 14:23:52 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 12:23:52 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> On 12/25/2015 11:41 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? >> I don't recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track >> record of wire-wrapped designs that says something, surely. > > No, some were not machined. Got any examples? I've never seen a press-fit wire-wrap socket pin that wasn't. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 25 14:25:01 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:25:01 +0000 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> , <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> Message-ID: > >> Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? > >> I don't recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track > >> record of wire-wrapped designs that says something, surely. > > > > No, some were not machined. > > Got any examples? I've never seen a press-fit wire-wrap socket pin that > wasn't. These aren't individual pins, but complete DIL sockets. An example is shown in this E-bay listing : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-pieces-New-16-Pin-Cambion-Wire-Wrap-DIP-Sockets-Gold-Pins-/262081127835 -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 14:34:13 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 15:34:13 -0500 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> Message-ID: I likely do. If I find one, do you need it? I do not do wire wrap. They were not all that bad when they came out, but time has not been kind to them - almost all have corrosion issues, sort of like Nuvistor sockets. I have a memory of seeing a gold plated version, but I might be making that up. -- Will On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/25/2015 11:41 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> Aren't in fact, all wirewrap (board+pin) board sockets machine-pin? >>> I don't recall seeing one that wasn't. Given the great track >>> record of wire-wrapped designs that says something, surely. >> >> >> No, some were not machined. > > > Got any examples? I've never seen a press-fit wire-wrap socket pin that > wasn't. > > --Chuck > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 25 14:48:51 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:48:51 -0000 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <20151225131527.GB2758@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <054601d13aa1$0a30efe0$1e92cfa0$@ntlworld.com> <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> <024701d13dbd$bfc75500$3f55ff00$@ntlworld.com> <20151225131527.GB2758@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <039901d13f55$a98bb350$fca319f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe > Sent: 25 December 2015 13:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > This Capacitor was bad in my PSU too and I've changed it. In the light of what you say below, do you mean you only changed this one, or did you change all of the ones on the logic board? Does that include the really big ones too? > > So finally, what was wrong with my idea that you sould simply change all > reachable electrolytic capacitors in that PSU to get it working again? > Nothing at all was wrong with your idea. I had indeed followed your advice on the 12V board, on the basis that I could reach them and that it seemed to be the 12V side that was having the problem, so implying that other parts of the PSU were OK. I did not change any on the 5V side as that side seems to be OK and I don't really like the approach of pulling and soldering them from above all that much. > In my Eyes it really isn't worth the effort of testing each one, change them all > to get that thing working halfways reliable again, it is an really bad desing > anyways... > Yes, and I may yet have to change those on the 5V side, because after posting the good news, I had one brief episode where the PSU switched itself off again after running for about a minute. On powering it up again it worked for a good hour without issue. So perhaps I should bite the bullet and replace those too, and also the other small electrolytics on the logic board too. However, I don't think I will replace the really big ones. Generally, I get the impression that these big ones suffer fewer problems, certainly their ESR is fine. I am also reluctant to change them because they are generally connected to large heat-sucking planes, making them hard for me to desolder without making a mess of the board and possibly damaging it too. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 15:05:11 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:05:11 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567DAF87.4030206@sydex.com> On 12/25/2015 12:25 PM, tony duell wrote: > These aren't individual pins, but complete DIL sockets. An example is > shown in this E-bay listing : > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20-pieces-New-16-Pin-Cambion-Wire-Wrap-DIP-Sockets-Gold-Pins-/262081127835 Oh, I know that the individual sockets didn't. Heck, I've probably still got some of those old white plastic 0.400" 22 pin ones used for 2107-type DRAM somewhere. The "tails" are even tin-plated, not gold. Cheapest of the cheap. No, I was referring to the wirewrap *boards* with individual press-fit socket pins, usually on very thick FR4 stock. You know--*real* industrial wire-wrap, not the cheap hobbyist stuff. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 15:10:59 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 16:10:59 -0500 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567DAF87.4030206@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> <567DAF87.4030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: > No, I was referring to the wirewrap *boards* with individual press-fit > socket pins, usually on very thick FR4 stock. You know--*real* industrial > wire-wrap, not the cheap hobbyist stuff. OK, I misunderstood you. No, I have never seen one of those that was not a turned pin type. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 25 15:29:43 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 13:29:43 -0800 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> <567DAF87.4030206@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567DB547.6030402@sydex.com> On 12/25/2015 01:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > OK, I misunderstood you. No, I have never seen one of those that was > not a turned pin type. TI also sold some wire-wrap sockets (gold-plated to their credit) with "forked" type contacts which were welded(?) to the wrap posts. They had the annoying habit of separating the post from the contact fork if stressed too much. Made for some frustrating debugging. I learned my lesson early on--use Augat sockets. Your time is worth more than the expense. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 25 18:45:04 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 00:45:04 -0000 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers Message-ID: <03a901d13f76$a93971a0$fbac54e0$@ntlworld.com> Not too long ago I picked up a DEC Venturis FX 5120. It contains a 3COM 3C905-TX network card. There are some sites around the web that purport to have drivers for this card, but I am very wary of downloading anything from these sites. Does anyone happen to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what OSs this card was supported on, so any drivers at all would be appreciated. Thanks Rob From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 19:55:17 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:55:17 +1300 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation Message-ID: I've recently been poking about with various bits of emulation with hardware interfaces... Dave's MFM emulator; various SCSI-to-USB or SCSI-to-SDcard devices; my Setasi RP12 Massbus disk emulator; the Sigma Seven Lisa widget/ProFile emulator etc. What about IBM channel-attached DASD? There are various CPUs lying around in private collections and museums - System/360s; System/370s; System/3 Model 15s; all used channel-attached DASD: and working reliable disks are much rarer than the damn CPUs! Questions: 1. There are or were various 3rd party companies producing rather obscure emulated DASD replacement subsystems - Virtualblue and Bustech are two names that come to mind. Has anyone looked into the possibility of using them to emulate older devices that would be usable on the above vintage CPUs? 2. To those with hardware design experience: how big a task do you reckon it would be to do this as a home-brew with modern hardware - exactly as Dave did with his MFM emulator? Is it feasible? Do the entire thing in software - Pi or Arduino or FPGA - with appropriate driver electronics to drive a channel interface? I've BCC'd some experts with experience - Rich Alderson; William Donzelli; Henk Stegeman - in the hope that they'll be able to contribute. What do people reckon would be the best target for emulation? 3340 springs to mind initially... would that work on machines as old as System/360s? It's about the *only* option for 5415 DASD... (To digress briefly - a modern reimplementation of something like the Setasi Massbus disk emulator would also be very useful; Rich - weren't LCM working on something like that?) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 25 19:58:38 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 01:58:38 +0000 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <03a901d13f76$a93971a0$fbac54e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 26/12/2015 00:45, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > Not too long ago I picked up a DEC Venturis FX 5120. It contains a 3COM > 3C905-TX network card. There are some sites around the web that purport to > have drivers for this card, but I am very wary of downloading anything from > these sites. > > > > Does anyone happen to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what OSs > this card was supported on, so any drivers at all would be appreciated. > Ack! *shudders at the memory* Horrible things, we did a LOT of those back then initially on WFW3.11 then Win95. I battled PATHWORKS32 and fun fun fun times with 10base2 around police stations in the north of england. Bound to still have driver disks at work, but the 3c905 was THE de-facto card of the 90s for 10baseT with the DE100/DE200 (I think) for thick/thinwire. The 3COMs will work with the bog-standard NE1000 driver for DOS....hazy memories of swearing which I shall take to sleep since it's 2am here :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From christopher1400 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 20:14:12 2015 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:14:12 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: References: <03a901d13f76$a93971a0$fbac54e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have a copy in zip form, threw the install disks up here: http://archive.compgeke.com/Drivers/PC/3Com%203C90x/ Looks to have support up to 98/NT4. Packet driver for DOS is also there. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 25 20:36:25 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:36:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Dec 2015, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 26/12/2015 00:45, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > >> Not too long ago I picked up a DEC Venturis FX 5120. It contains a 3COM >> 3C905-TX network card. There are some sites around the web that purport >> to have drivers for this card, but I am very wary of downloading >> anything from these sites. >> >> Does anyone happen to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what >> OSs this card was supported on, so any drivers at all would be >> appreciated. > > Ack! *shudders at the memory* > > Horrible things, we did a LOT of those back then initially on WFW3.11 > then Win95. I battled PATHWORKS32 and fun fun fun times with 10base2 > around police stations in the north of england. > > Bound to still have driver disks at work, but the 3c905 was THE de-facto > card of the 90s for 10baseT with the DE100/DE200 (I think) for > thick/thinwire. The 3COMs will work with the bog-standard NE1000 driver > for DOS....hazy memories of swearing which I shall take to sleep since > it's 2am here :) Don't get the 3C905 and 3C509 mixed up though. The 3C905 is a PCI 10/100 UTP-only card and is supported by pretty much everything. The 3C509 OTOH is an ISA 10mb card available in many different combinations of 10Base-2 and 10Base-T (some also have the 10Base-5 AUI connector) which was also supported by pretty much everything. There were also some 3Com PCI cards which were 10mb only. Some of those PCI cards even had 10Base-2 (BNC) and 10Base-5 (AUI) connectors. I don't recall these cards being NE1000 compatible and I seem to remember using 3Com specific packet drivers with them for DOS applications. I still have quite a few of the 3C905 PCI cards in use and they have been extremely reliable. Those that I've taken out of service in the last several years have only been to free up the PCI slot for a mutli-port nic. As far as drivers for the 3C905 go, they are on the HP site or FTP server somewhere. HP gobbled up 3Com quite a number of years ago. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 25 20:44:38 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 21:44:38 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <567DFF16.3090204@sbcglobal.net> On 12/24/2015 09:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that > hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a > Merry Christmas. > > Best, > > Jay West > jwest at classiccmp.org > > No, a bigger thank you to all you do for this list & the hobby! Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all! -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 21:10:12 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 21:10:12 -0600 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <567DFF16.3090204@sbcglobal.net> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> <567DFF16.3090204@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Likewise, Merry Christmas and thanks for another year of list service. =) On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > On 12/24/2015 09:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that >> hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a >> Merry Christmas. >> >> Best, >> >> Jay West >> jwest at classiccmp.org >> >> >> No, a bigger thank you to all you do for this list & the hobby! > > Merry Christmas & Happy Holidays to all! > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > > "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." > "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." > - from some guy on the internet. > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 21:12:20 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:12:20 -0500 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25 December 2015 at 20:55, Mike Ross wrote: > What do people reckon would be the best target for emulation? 3340 > springs to mind initially... would that work on machines as old as > System/360s? It's about the *only* option for 5415 DASD... > The 3340 is a pretty "small" disk at least for mainframe DASD. More useful would be the 3330-1 and 3330-11. You can gen OS/360 21.8F and MVS 3.8J to 3330 (assuming of course you have a 370 of some sort knocking around). Unless I'm completely wrong, most of the various control units presented a programming interface that was relatively similar/the same amongst the various kinds of DASD (looking at the 2844/2314 and 3830/3330 for example). Naturally the best way to double check that would be to look at sufficient reference manuals, though if you felt less inclined you could try browsing the source of the Hercules emulator for how it does DASD emulation. Now for the topic of System/3 DASD; firstly the control "speaks" a completely different set of commands compared to the channel attached DASD of the "proper" mainframe world. The 5444 disk is it's own thing and not related to any of the channel attached DASD. The 5445 is basically a single 2314 unit; and the 3340/3344 are exactly what they say they are. Images of the 5445 and 334x drives would be interchangable with the 2314 and 334x (since the format the System/3 uses on those disks is compatible with mainframe systems). As a kind of dumb thought, for storing the images of the Count-Key-Data DASD perhaps abuse the Hercules CKD/CCKD code into the hardware emulator? (Means you can move your emulated disk packs to and from a Hercules instance if you had reason to do so.) Sorry for blathering on, I'm not an expert and I haven't a clue how easy or difficult it would be to implement any of these ideas. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Dec 25 22:10:07 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 23:10:07 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: >Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that >hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a >Merry Christmas. > >Best, > >Jay West >jwest at classiccmp.org > It is a pleasure to wish you and everyone else a Merry Christmas. And a special THANK YOU to Jay for a job well done. It is not often these days that can be stated. And a think you to everyone else for the support that you all provide to keep the hobby alive. I could wish that there was a primary interest in software, especially and obviously on RT-11, but no everything wished for is possible. Jerome Fine From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 25 22:16:02 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:16:02 -0800 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567E1482.7050307@shiresoft.com> I On 12/25/15 5:55 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > What about IBM channel-attached DASD? > > There are various CPUs lying around in private collections and museums > - System/360s; System/370s; System/3 Model 15s; all used > channel-attached DASD: and working reliable disks are much rarer than > the damn CPUs! It's typical of most of the vintage gear. Folks save the CPUs and ditch the peripherals. > > Questions: > > > 2. To those with hardware design experience: how big a task do you > reckon it would be to do this as a home-brew with modern hardware - > exactly as Dave did with his MFM emulator? Is it feasible? Do the > entire thing in software - Pi or Arduino or FPGA - with appropriate > driver electronics to drive a channel interface? I've looked at this briefly. I would expect that there will have to be more than just software. Talking with David re: MFM emulator, that was at about the limit of what could be done with S/W. Anything else would require at least *some* H/W. > What do people reckon would be the best target for emulation? 3340 > springs to mind initially... would that work on machines as old as > System/360s? It's about the *only* option for 5415 DASD... From my limited experience, I would think that any of the CCK drives would be reasonable targets. I think once you get one (3330?) the others should follow fairly easily. I think once you've emulated the controller, supporting the different drives should be fairly straightforward. > > (To digress briefly - a modern reimplementation of something like the > Setasi Massbus disk emulator would also be very useful; Rich - weren't > LCM working on something like that?) > > Again, I've looked at it. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't a spec per-se on Massbus. A lot of reverse engineering will be required to make it work properly in all cases. It'll be a lot of reading (and fully understanding) the drive schematics and then trying to generalize it. TTFN - Guy From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 25 23:13:52 2015 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 23:13:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <03a901d13f76$a93971a0$fbac54e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <03a901d13f76$a93971a0$fbac54e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Dec 2015, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Not too long ago I picked up a DEC Venturis FX 5120. It contains a 3COM > 3C905-TX network card. There are some sites around the web that purport > to have drivers for this card, but I am very wary of downloading > anything from these sites. > > Does anyone happen to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what OSs > this card was supported on, so any drivers at all would be appreciated. These were extremely difficult to find, but try these links. At a minimum you'll want 3c90x1.exe and 3c90x2.exe files which are self-extracting lha archives to create the two 3.5" disk images for the Etherdisk XL package. It had been many years since I went looking for this stuff and HP is not making it easy to find now. I suspect it would be even more difficult (if not impossible) to find older Etherdisk packages for even older network cards. Expand the 'Archived' section at this link: https://h10145.www1.hpe.com/downloads/SoftwareReleases.aspx?ProductNumber=JF003A 3c90x1.exe https://h10145.www1.hpe.com/downloads/DownloadSoftware.aspx?SoftwareReleaseUId=6097&ProductNumber=JF003A&lang=&cc=&prodSeriesId=&OrderNumber=&PurchaseDate= 3c90x2.exe https://h10145.www1.hpe.com/downloads/DownloadSoftware.aspx?SoftwareReleaseUId=6098&ProductNumber=JF003A&lang=&cc=&prodSeriesId=&OrderNumber=&PurchaseDate= From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 23:32:18 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 18:32:18 +1300 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <567E1482.7050307@shiresoft.com> References: <567E1482.7050307@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Dec 26, 2015 5:16 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > > I > > > On 12/25/15 5:55 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> (To digress briefly - a modern reimplementation of something like the >> Setasi Massbus disk emulator would also be very useful; Rich - weren't >> LCM working on something like that?) >> >> > Again, I've looked at it. I think the biggest problem is that there isn't a spec per-se > on Massbus. A lot of reverse engineering will be required to make it work properly > in all cases. It'll be a lot of reading (and fully understanding) the drive schematics and > then trying to generalize it. > > TTFN - Guy Another approach would be reverse-engineering the Setasi itself. That's a known production-quality Massbus emulation, based on a 486 PC with one custom card doing the Massbus interface... A card driven by a Xilinx FPGA which could possibly be 'read out'...? Crying shame time... Back in the mid 2000s I was in contact with John Jones... ex DEC hardware guru and the guy behind Setasi. I agreed to buy all the remaining bits of Setasi from him... Several units, doc, software - and his development PC with all source and design files. Then I had a bout with cancer, and by the time I picked up the threads again he had given up on me and chucked it all in the dumpster :( Mike From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 00:14:47 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 23:14:47 -0700 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: <567E1482.7050307@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 10:32 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > A card driven by a Xilinx FPGA > which could possibly be 'read out'...? Could be "read out" in that the same bistream could be programmed into another Xilinx FPGA of the same part number. But if you're thinking that reading the FPGA bitstream is somehow useful for reverse-engineering, no. The bitstream format is complex and undocumented. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 26 00:41:27 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:41:27 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567E3697.7020503@sydex.com> On 12/25/2015 05:58 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Bound to still have driver disks at work, but the 3c905 was THE > de-facto card of the 90s for 10baseT with the DE100/DE200 (I think) > for thick/thinwire. The 3COMs will work with the bog-standard NE1000 > driver for DOS....hazy memories of swearing which I shall take to > sleep since it's 2am here :) That's the 3Com PCI card, right? I've got a couple in systems here and didn't have any problem finding drivers for XP/98SE. Linux/BSD already appears to know about the card. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 26 00:47:37 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:47:37 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567E3809.9070900@sydex.com> Have a look here: https://web.archive.org/web/20060314185244/http://support.3com.com/infodeli/tools/nic/3c905.htm Use the HTTP link--the FTP one doesn't seem to be working. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 26 02:54:40 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:54:40 -0000 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <567E3697.7020503@sydex.com> References: <567E3697.7020503@sydex.com> Message-ID: <03cc01d13fbb$0e48c7a0$2ada56e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 26 December 2015 06:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers > > On 12/25/2015 05:58 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > Bound to still have driver disks at work, but the 3c905 was THE > > de-facto card of the 90s for 10baseT with the DE100/DE200 (I think) > > for thick/thinwire. The 3COMs will work with the bog-standard NE1000 > > driver for DOS....hazy memories of swearing which I shall take to > > sleep since it's 2am here :) > > That's the 3Com PCI card, right? I've got a couple in systems here and didn't > have any problem finding drivers for XP/98SE. Linux/BSD already appears to > know about the card. > > --Chuck Yes this is a PCI card, not ISA. I am in the process of trying the drivers Tothwolf posted links to. Thanks Tothwolf! Regards Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 03:54:01 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 09:54:01 -0000 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013901d13fc3$593170c0$0b945240$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: 26 December 2015 01:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation > > I've recently been poking about with various bits of emulation with hardware > interfaces... Dave's MFM emulator; various SCSI-to-USB or SCSI-to-SDcard > devices; my Setasi RP12 Massbus disk emulator; the Sigma Seven Lisa > widget/ProFile emulator etc. > > What about IBM channel-attached DASD? The Channel Protocols and Electrical Characteristics of the channel are reasonably well documented. E.g. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/370/channel/GA22-6974-4_360_370_IO_Interface_Channel_to_Control_Unit_OEM_Information_Jan78.pdf but IBM DASD are complex in that the physical block size can differ from track to track, and can be changed by the user. > > There are various CPUs lying around in private collections and museums > - System/360s; System/370s; System/3 Model 15s; all used channel-attached > DASD: and working reliable disks are much rarer than the damn CPUs! The ICL2960 at TNMOC at Bletchley used similar disks. It now has emulated disk attached. I don't think there are any working S/360's or even any that are complete enough to be restored. The same goes for real S/370. There might be 30xx or 43xx boxes but those are not 370/s.. > > Questions: > > 1. There are or were various 3rd party companies producing rather obscure > emulated DASD replacement subsystems - Virtualblue and Bustech are two > names that come to mind. Has anyone looked into the possibility of using > them to emulate older devices that would be usable on the above vintage > CPUs? These seem rarer than the original DASD and less well understood. Probably as hard to keep running as the originals. > > 2. To those with hardware design experience: how big a task do you reckon it > would be to do this as a home-brew with modern hardware - exactly as Dave > did with his MFM emulator? Is it feasible? Do the entire thing in software - Pi > or Arduino or FPGA - with appropriate driver electronics to drive a channel > interface? The later IBM channel runs at 4Mbytes/second. Not sure software could keep up. > > I've BCC'd some experts with experience - Rich Alderson; William Donzelli; > Henk Stegeman - in the hope that they'll be able to contribute. > > What do people reckon would be the best target for emulation? 3340 springs > to mind initially... would that work on machines as old as System/360s? It's > about the *only* option for 5415 DASD... > I think the hard bit is getting the channel protocol working, once that?s running I think emulating many models of DASD would be possible. As someone else mentioned Hercules already has code that allows disk files to contain DASD images in various sector sizes. It may be possible to use this to talk to a real channel. Implementing some of the channel protocol in FPGA might be necessary. But I think finding a real S/360 would be harder... ..... but some one has an FPGA implementation... http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/ > (To digress briefly - a modern reimplementation of something like the Setasi > Massbus disk emulator would also be very useful; Rich - weren't LCM > working on something like that?) > > Mike > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' Dave G4UGM From knoppixlivekiller at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 05:32:31 2015 From: knoppixlivekiller at gmail.com (Knoppix Killer) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 11:32:31 +0000 Subject: The best spreadsheet / database program for Commodore 64? In-Reply-To: <56797836.4010906@gmail.com> References: <5675E21C.1070901@gmail.com> <56797836.4010906@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wonder why Apple's version looks so much more cleaner and professional? On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Mike wrote: > > > On 12/20/2015 03:40 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > > i used a product called Trio back in the day. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Dec 20, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Mike Whalen > wrote: > >> > >> Again not an integrated suite but there was also Multiplan, a > spreadsheet > >> for the C64 from Microsoft. > >> > >> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplan > Thank you for the reply I would like a good spreadsheet to do my > checkbook on and my savings also a word processor to wright my "Choose > your own adventure CreepypastA on. > > Creepypasta not sure if ya know what that is so if not here is a link. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creepypasta > From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 05:45:47 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 06:45:47 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 11:10 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay West wrote: > > Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that >> hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a >> Merry Christmas. >> >> Best, >> >> Jay West >> jwest at classiccmp.org >> >> It is a pleasure to wish you and everyone else a Merry Christmas. > > And a special THANK YOU to Jay for a job well done. It is > not often these days that can be stated. > > And a think you to everyone else for the support that you all > provide to keep the hobby alive. I could wish that there was > a primary interest in software, especially and obviously on > RT-11, but no everything wished for is possible. > > Jerome Fine > Belated Merry Christmas, all, and thanks to all the great old story tellers, patient mentors and enthusiasts who've helped me (and others) out with projects! --jake From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 26 05:49:24 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 11:49:24 +0000 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> Message-ID: <567E7EC4.8040709@btinternet.com> On 26/12/2015 04:10, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay West wrote: > >> Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks >> that >> hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a >> Merry Christmas. >> >> Best, >> >> Jay West >> jwest at classiccmp.org >> > It is a pleasure to wish you and everyone else a Merry Christmas. > > And a special THANK YOU to Jay for a job well done. It is > not often these days that can be stated. > > And a think you to everyone else for the support that you all > provide to keep the hobby alive. I could wish that there was > a primary interest in software, especially and obviously on > RT-11, but no everything wished for is possible. > > Jerome Fi Good old fashioned help and support - can't beat it R From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 26 07:36:32 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:36:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation Message-ID: <20151226133632.8A87F18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor > It's typical of most of the vintage gear. Folks save the CPUs and ditch > the peripherals. It's not entirely sloth and stupidity, though. Disk drives in particular (usually the biggest issue in this area) are complex precision machinery that operate at very high speeds, etc, and working on them is a formidable job, and requires specialized parts which are, in general, no longer available. > I think the biggest problem is that there isn't a spec per-se on > Massbus. A lot of reverse engineering will be required to make it work > properly in all cases. If it were done, though, that would be wonderful, especially for people with PDP-11/70's; the UNIBUS on those machines is reputedly the slowest of any PDP-11, so having mass storage on the MASSBUS is really necessary for good performance. (Apologies for my -11 centrism in an IBM-focused thread... :-) But finding the connectors (and probably the cables too) is going to be a cast-iron nightmare. Maybe we could settle on an alternative (the way I think we should switch to pairs of dual cards with Berg/DuPont headers, with standard flat cables between them, to replace the now-unobtainable BC11-A's - DEC showed this works, with the M9014/M9042..) Noel From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 08:03:09 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 03:03:09 +1300 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <20151226133632.8A87F18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20151226133632.8A87F18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2015 2:36 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > From: Guy Sotomayor > > > It's typical of most of the vintage gear. Folks save the CPUs and ditch > > the peripherals. > > It's not entirely sloth and stupidity, though. Disk drives in particular > (usually the biggest issue in this area) are complex precision machinery that > operate at very high speeds, etc, and working on them is a formidable job, > and requires specialized parts which are, in general, no longer available. > > > I think the biggest problem is that there isn't a spec per-se on > > Massbus. A lot of reverse engineering will be required to make it work > > properly in all cases. > > If it were done, though, that would be wonderful, especially for people with > PDP-11/70's; the UNIBUS on those machines is reputedly the slowest of any > PDP-11, so having mass storage on the MASSBUS is really necessary for good > performance. (Apologies for my -11 centrism in an IBM-focused thread... :-) No apologies needed. Yea more: pdp-10s. Massbus is the *only* option for those. There are KS10 CPUs in particular - including mine - lying idle for want of Massbus storage. I'm nearly there; I have a beautiful RM03 which should work - but no bootable packs. I have a bunch of -10 RP06 packs - but no drives. I don't have an operable Massbus tape. > But finding the connectors (and probably the cables too) is going to be a > cast-iron nightmare. Maybe we could settle on an alternative (the way I think > we should switch to pairs of dual cards with Berg/DuPont headers, with > standard flat cables between them, to replace the now-unobtainable BC11-A's - > DEC showed this works, with the M9014/M9042..) > > Noel Certainly no need to slavishly reproduce the connectors and cables. Emulation could plug in at the Berg level, direct to the Massbus controller - or even at the board level, plugging straight into the backplane (c.f. Guy's MEM-11) and replace the controller too. Mike From linimon at lonesome.com Fri Dec 25 18:03:11 2015 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 18:03:11 -0600 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20151226000311.GB21201@lonesome.com> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 08:31:46PM -0500, Michael Thompson wrote: > the [paper tape] reader does not always step correctly and does not > read the tape correctly. Ah, then you have restored it to as-shipped condition :-) mcl From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Dec 25 20:23:42 2015 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (William Cooke) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 21:23:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: More Manuals Message-ID: <2005733460.32510.2eaddc1a-b403-4203-9a3e-7f8d9067050c.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> Hi all, I just signed up today and haven't been admitted to the group, so I couldn't reply to the appropriate message. But, in browsing through recent messages I saw the one with a link to loads of manuals. My first thought was that if that was interesting, this one would be too. Manuals for tons of old test equipment. http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 26 10:21:57 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:21:57 -0800 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567EBEA5.6000409@bitsavers.org> On 12/25/15 5:55 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I've recently been poking about with various bits of emulation with > hardware interfaces... Dave's MFM emulator; various SCSI-to-USB or > SCSI-to-SDcard devices; my Setasi RP12 Massbus disk emulator; the > Sigma Seven Lisa widget/ProFile emulator etc. > > What about IBM channel-attached DASD? > FWIW, I picked this up in October http://www.ebay.com/itm/230304621233 It is a PC-based device that lets you exercise channel peripherals off-line simulating the CPU. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 26 10:37:10 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 10:37:10 -0600 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> Message-ID: <567EC236.5020100@pico-systems.com> Yes, I also want to wish everybody, and Jay, especially, a merry Christmas and a happy new year! Jon From radiotest at juno.com Sat Dec 26 11:06:05 2015 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: More Manuals In-Reply-To: <2005733460.32510.2eaddc1a-b403-4203-9a3e-7f8d9067050c.open -xchange@email.1and1.com> References: <2005733460.32510.2eaddc1a-b403-4203-9a3e-7f8d9067050c.open-xchange@email.1and1.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20151226120454.03e0f7b8@juno.com> BAMA is probably the best known site for old test equipment and amateur radio manuals, followed by Ebaman. Dale H. Cook, GR / HP Collector, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 11:32:16 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:32:16 -0500 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <567EBEA5.6000409@bitsavers.org> References: <567EBEA5.6000409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > FWIW, I picked this up in October > http://www.ebay.com/itm/230304621233 > > It is a PC-based device that lets you exercise channel peripherals off-line > simulating the CPU. Does it work? Can I borrow it? For a long, long time? -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 26 11:36:22 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 09:36:22 -0800 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: <567EBEA5.6000409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <567ED016.3040107@bitsavers.org> On 12/26/15 9:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> FWIW, I picked this up in October >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/230304621233 >> >> It is a PC-based device that lets you exercise channel peripherals off-line >> simulating the CPU. > > Does it work? > > Can I borrow it? > > For a long, long time? > > -- > Will > Sure. I got it cheap and I owe you a favor. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 11:45:33 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:45:33 -0500 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <567ED016.3040107@bitsavers.org> References: <567EBEA5.6000409@bitsavers.org> <567ED016.3040107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Does it work? >> >> Can I borrow it? >> >> For a long, long time? >> >> -- >> Will >> > > Sure. I got it cheap and I owe you a favor. It looks like the company is still around, although the website is right out of 2003 (even with a 2015 copyright, so someone must be paying attention over there). Have you looked into what devices it can exercise? -- Will From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Dec 26 12:34:15 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 07:34:15 +1300 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <567EC236.5020100@pico-systems.com> References: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> <567E131F.6060800@compsys.to> <567EC236.5020100@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Yes Merry Christmas from down under! Terry (tez) On 27/12/2015 5:37 am, "Jon Elson" wrote: > Yes, I also want to wish everybody, and Jay, especially, a merry Christmas > and a happy new year! > > Jon > From jonas at otter.se Sat Dec 26 12:40:47 2015 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 19:40:47 +0100 Subject: Piggybacking 74LS logic chips to confirm a suspected fault In-Reply-To: <567DB547.6030402@sydex.com> References: <567D77B2.7090300@otter.se> <567D9916.4050304@sydex.com> <567DA5D8.60801@sydex.com> <567DAF87.4030206@sydex.com> <567DB547.6030402@sydex.com> Message-ID: <567EDF2F.3030405@otter.se> On 2015-12-25 22:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/25/2015 01:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> OK, I misunderstood you. No, I have never seen one of those that was >> not a turned pin type. > > TI also sold some wire-wrap sockets (gold-plated to their credit) with > "forked" type contacts which were welded(?) to the wrap posts. They > had the annoying habit of separating the post from the contact fork if > stressed too much. Made for some frustrating debugging. > > I learned my lesson early on--use Augat sockets. Your time is worth > more than the expense. > > --Chuck > > > > I also used a number of those in the beginning of my career, before I knew better. They were truly awful. IIRC they would also lose spring tension, causing disconnections. The gold plating was a complete waste of money. I got some with some wirewrap equipment I bought from an online auction a while ago. I am debating whether to throw them away or to keep them as exhibits of remarkable crappiness. Jonas From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 26 12:43:27 2015 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 18:43:27 +0000 Subject: Merry Christmas In-Reply-To: <000201d13eba$1b5109f0$51f31dd0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 25/12/2015 02:15, "Jay West" wrote: > Just wanted to say a very sincere Thank You to all the talented folks that > hang out here and call this place home, and also to wish you and yours a > Merry Christmas. Same to you Jay, and to everyone else in classiccmp land! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 26 13:14:43 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 14:14:43 -0500 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <013901d13fc3$593170c0$0b945240$@gmail.com> References: <013901d13fc3$593170c0$0b945240$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <95E9268A-B3C2-40F9-A520-5397F0A5044D@comcast.net> > On Dec 26, 2015, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > ... > but IBM DASD are complex in that the physical block size can differ from track to track, and can be changed by the user. From sector to sector, actually. And sectors can have key fields along with the data -- the device will find a sector by key match on a track. paul From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 02:44:22 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 00:44:22 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers Message-ID: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> >From: "Robert Jarratt" >Does anyone happen to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what OSs >this card was supported on, so any drivers at all would be appreciated. I have a few versions of the drivers. They are part of Windows 98SE and Windows XP distribution though, I had the card recognized on its own on by both of these (and I suspect NT too though I didn't try). Needs more help on Windows 95. If you can't get it to work from the links send me an email. Which reminds me I should ask for some drivers too... Marc From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 03:05:58 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 01:05:58 -0800 Subject: Looking for WinXP drivers for Trident Video Cyber9520 Message-ID: <002801d14085$cd4d5380$67e7fa80$@gmail.com> In the series "looking for drivers". I have taken to using DolchPac 65's as my retro workhorses so I can multi-boot DOS, Win98 , WinNT, WinXP and Linux while sticking weird old PCI and ISA interface cards in it. One of the OS always ends up having some software for the card. It has a custom video card that identifies itself as a "Trident Video Accelerator 3D Cyber9520". I found the driver for Win98 which works very well, the machine came pre-installed running NT, and Linux installs a driver that is a bit glitchy but usable (I can't believe I could run modern Linux on this!). The video is auto-recognized and the right driver installs under XP, but the default version is ultra-buggy, video gets corrupted. Does anyone have an updated driver for this chip? Internet didn't come up with anything apart from the ones necessitating scary hardware scanners that crashed my old machine anyhow. Marc From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Dec 27 03:42:50 2015 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:42:50 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? In-Reply-To: <039901d13f55$a98bb350$fca319f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <007d01d13b7e$7d5733c0$78059b40$@ntlworld.com> <20151221085031.GA84935@beast.freibergnet.de> <00a001d13bcf$feff2c60$fcfd8520$@ntlworld.com> <00bd01d13be0$404a76b0$c0df6410$@ntlworld.com> <022b01d13d99$674104e0$35c30ea0$@ntlworld.com> <024701d13dbd$bfc75500$3f55ff00$@ntlworld.com> <20151225131527.GB2758@beast.freibergnet.de> <039901d13f55$a98bb350$fca319f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20151227094250.GA14599@beast.freibergnet.de> Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm > Tiffe > > Sent: 25 December 2015 13:15 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VAX 4000-500 PSU Overload? > > > > This Capacitor was bad in my PSU too and I've changed it. > > In the light of what you say below, do you mean you only changed this one, > or did you change all of the ones on the logic board? Does that include the > really big ones too? No, I've changed all smaller electrolytics, the big brown 6800?F and the big filter caps after the rectifiers remained untouched. The bigger caps aren't loaded that much in relation to ther volumina with pulsed currents as the smaller ones and the se works better on big ones. The ability to dissipiate heat is also better for big capacitors and that's the cause that they are still wet internally and therefore still working. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 27 03:57:26 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:57:26 -0000 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> References: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marc > Verdiell > Sent: 27 December 2015 08:44 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers > > >From: "Robert Jarratt" Does anyone happen > >to have drivers for this card? I am not sure what OSs this card was > >supported on, so any drivers at all would be appreciated. > I have a few versions of the drivers. They are part of Windows 98SE and > Windows XP distribution though, I had the card recognized on its own on by > both of these (and I suspect NT too though I didn't try). Needs more help on > Windows 95. If you can't get it to work from the links send me an email. > Which reminds me I should ask for some drivers too... > Marc Thanks Marc. The drivers from the HP Enterprise site worked, although for Windows 95 I have been unable to get TCP/IP working. DHCP is not working and ping moans about a wrong protocol. It looks like I am missing VUDP.386 and I could not find it on the Windows 95 CD. I am pretty sure I have another CD with OSR2 somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. Will have another look at some point, but I think the driver itself is just fine now. Regards Rob From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sat Dec 26 04:59:20 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2015 05:59:20 -0500 Subject: Seasons greetings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <567E7308.40307@gmail.com> On 12/24/2015 04:47 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > To all readers/followers of this website - for those who love > classic/vintage computers - I want to wish all the best of the holiday > season no matter what your beliefs. In this day of political > correctness it is simply to acknowledge Mother Nature's transition > from fall to winter and we should take time from our busy schedules to > reflect on this 'special' time of the year. > > Happy computing! > > Murray :) Thanks Murry and a Merry CHRIST-mas to you and yours! Habe a blessed day now On to setting up still in the box Commodore 64 together that I got for CHRIST-mas! From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sun Dec 27 03:29:18 2015 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:29:18 +0100 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation Message-ID: Hi Mike, Here are the options to attach 3340 DASD emulation to an IBM System/3 1) direct connect to the internal channel of the S/3. Some disk OEM's did this. Requires a FPGA with at one side MST-1 interface logic and at the other side IDE or SCSI interface. The availabe IBM documentation is complete enough to finish this project. You need good IBM HW & VHDL knowledge. 2) direct connect to the BUS/TAG interface connector. This needs a 8+P bit stream. You have to do some reverse engineering to figure out what the exact format is. I have no idea if the HW must be implemented in a FPGA (for timing reasons) or if an AVR processor will do the job. Advantage is that you don't have to modify anything inside the S/3. 3) IBM has implemented an IOP (I/O Processor) between the S/3 CPU and the 3340 drives. This IOP is a modified version of the ones used in the IBM 370/115 & 125. It is a powerfull multi thread capable beast. With small HW modification you can connect an IDE or SCSI drives to it. The difficult part is modifying the firmware of the IOP. This requires a special assembler (to be written) and very good assembler skill's. All options requires quite alot of time to implement. My 2 cents Henk From tulsamike3434 at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 04:47:37 2015 From: tulsamike3434 at gmail.com (Mike) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 05:47:37 -0500 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip Message-ID: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >From PC-World " The new Commodore 64 is, like the old 64, an entire system inside a (rather thick) keyboard. The old Commodore 64 originally cost $595 and featured an MOS Technology 6510 microprocessor, an impressive 64KB of RAM, and VIC-II graphics that supported a screen resolution of 320 by 200 pixels. The new system, which also starts at $595, is a little more modern: it's got a Dual Core 525 Atom processor, an Nvidia Ion2 graphics chipset, 2GB of RAM (upgradeable to 4GB), a 160GB hard drive, and built-in Wi-Fi. On the left side of the keyboard there's a slot or tray-load DVD (upgradeable to Blu-ray), and on the right side there's a multi-format card reader, along with a USB 2.0 port. The rear features four additional USB 2.0 ports; mouse and keyboard PS/2 ports; DVI, VGA, and HDMI ports; Ethernet; and support for 6-channel HD audio. It runs Linux, but you can install Windows if you like. Pretty cool for a computer that looks like it's from the 80's. Of course, if you just want the look--and you want to throw your own stuff inside--you can also order the "Barebones" package on the new Commodore 64 Website. The Barebones package costs $250 and gets you the case, chassis, keyboard, and multi-format card reader with USB 2.0 port. On the other hand, if you'd like to go all out, there's also an $895 "Ultimate" package that includes a Blu-ray drive and a 1TB hard drive. The new Commodore 64 begins shipping at the end of this month, but you can order yours now --go get your BASIC on! " I myself am going to buy one just for a collector sake. The new Commodore phone seemes to be selling like hotcakes from the research I have done on it. There is also a switch in the back to boot the original C-64 I think It will be a fun computer to 0wn. What are your thoughts I will be wait a year or so because 545.00 is a bit much for me to spend on it but anyway Like I said what are your thoughts on it Ill post a youtube link below with the newC-64 review... Video Link here -------> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7Lo9Q0RiX0 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 27 11:10:06 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:10:06 +0000 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? No (and not just because I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). To me a computer is not defined by what it looks like. It is defined by the electronics, the firmware, etc. This is not even close to a C64, or in fact to any classic computer. It has no interest to me whatsoever. -tony From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 27 11:22:02 2015 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:22:02 -0800 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BE09697-2239-460F-934C-DA0A99295973@nf6x.net> The manufacturer links are all 404 and the video was from 2011. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 27 11:28:16 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:28:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seasons greetings In-Reply-To: <567E7308.40307@gmail.com> References: <567E7308.40307@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/24/2015 04:47 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > To all readers/followers of this website - for those who love What's the URL for the website? Happy humbug -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 27 11:41:39 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:41:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? No (and not just because I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). "new" Commodore 64??!? although, I do have to admit that Jeri Ellsowrth's new Commodore 64 (built into joystick) was tempting. I like her cup-holder, and her flip-card mechanical digital wristwatch. I lke her. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 13:16:46 2015 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:16:46 -0200 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: Who doesn't? Beyond being so clever, shhe is just beautiful! <3 <3 <3 Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 27/12/2015 15:41, "Fred Cisin" escreveu: > Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >> > No (and not just because I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). > > "new" Commodore 64??!? > > although, I do have to admit that Jeri Ellsowrth's new Commodore 64 (built > into joystick) was tempting. > I like her cup-holder, > and her flip-card mechanical digital wristwatch. > I lke her. > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Dec 27 13:42:21 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 14:42:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201512271942.OAA20288@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? > The new system, which also starts at $595, is a little more modern: > it's got a Dual Core 525 Atom processor, an Nvidia Ion2 graphics > chipset, 2GB of RAM (upgradeable to 4GB), a 160GB hard drive, and > built-in Wi-Fi. [...] No, I would not buy this. It's not a "new Commodore 64"; it's a peecee in a C=64ish case. I would also take a good deal of convincing to see it as on-topic for this list, so I'm not going into it further here. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Dec 27 14:15:15 2015 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:15:15 -0800 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: <95E9268A-B3C2-40F9-A520-5397F0A5044D@comcast.net> References: <013901d13fc3$593170c0$0b945240$@gmail.com> <95E9268A-B3C2-40F9-A520-5397F0A5044D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <037501d140e3$4cbf3bd0$e63db370$@computer.org> Actually the DASD themselves are easy to emulate when fully buffered and error free as IBM does today in its mainframes. What is really hard to emulate is the Storage Control Unit and the appropriate set of CCWs associated with a specific Storage Control Unit and attached DASD. If I were doing this I might start with the 2314 DASF; it might run on any Selector or Block Multiplexor channel and since the tracks would be fully buffered in memory there really is no performance issue since there would be no seek time or latency time. For the command set to emulate see, Initial CKD implementation on Wikipedia or the 2314 reference manual. If there was more than one device on the channel u might have some serious hogging issues The 29MB/spindle or 232 MB/facility might be a limitation on some of the newer systems, but it is possible to modify IBM's Oss to change the characteristic of a DASD to almost anything by changing the device characteristics in a table of such - that's how the PDMs attached double capacity 2314s and 3350s; they redefined an unused device, e.g. 2311, to have the characteristics of these non-IBM supported devices. In this case all one might have to do is redefine the 2314 characteristics The full step which would be really really interesting would be to build an emulator that could operate as a Selector/2314/2318r, BMux/3380-2/3350 and/or (Bmux and Escon) /3990/3390. All together IBM implemented 83 CCWs for its CKD DASD, most but not all of which would have to executed by such an emuiator. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkoning at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2015 11:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation > On Dec 26, 2015, at 4:54 AM, Dave Wade < dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote: > > ... > but IBM DASD are complex in that the physical block size can differ from track to track, and can be changed by the user. >From sector to sector, actually. And sectors can have key fields along with the data -- the device will find a sector by key match on a track. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 14:33:33 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 12:33:33 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56804B1D.8090309@sydex.com> On 12/27/2015 01:57 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > Thanks Marc. The drivers from the HP Enterprise site worked, although > for Windows 95 I have been unable to get TCP/IP working. DHCP is not > working and ping moans about a wrong protocol. It looks like I am > missing VUDP.386 and I could not find it on the Windows 95 CD. I am > pretty sure I have another CD with OSR2 somewhere, but I can't find > it at the moment. Will have another look at some point, but I think > the driver itself is just fine now. For what it's worth, I use Win98SE as the minimum Win9x version on my systems. Many fewer bugs than 95 and the minidriver platform has a degree of compatibility with NT/2K/XP. I run a Linksys WMP-54GS wireless PCI LAN adapter on 98SE, for example with no issues. And I have a similar 98SE/XP/Debian K6 box using the 3C905-TX with no problems whatsoever. My phone screening software runs on 98SE on an old 400MHz Neoware VIA thin client 24/7 and has been doing so for months. Supposedly, WinME with appropriate patches is even more solid, but I've never tried it. FWIW, Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 27 15:18:09 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 21:18:09 -0000 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <56804B1D.8090309@sydex.com> References: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> <56804B1D.8090309@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0e0c01d140ec$164fe7d0$42efb770$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 27 December 2015 20:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers > > On 12/27/2015 01:57 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > Thanks Marc. The drivers from the HP Enterprise site worked, although > > for Windows 95 I have been unable to get TCP/IP working. DHCP is not > > working and ping moans about a wrong protocol. It looks like I am > > missing VUDP.386 and I could not find it on the Windows 95 CD. I am > > pretty sure I have another CD with OSR2 somewhere, but I can't find it > > at the moment. Will have another look at some point, but I think the > > driver itself is just fine now. > > For what it's worth, I use Win98SE as the minimum Win9x version on my > systems. Many fewer bugs than 95 and the minidriver platform has a degree > of compatibility with NT/2K/XP. I run a Linksys WMP-54GS wireless PCI LAN > adapter on 98SE, for example with no issues. I should probably also set up 98. I chose 95 because it was quite an important version of Windows, and it is just nice to see how it used to be. > > And I have a similar 98SE/XP/Debian K6 box using the 3C905-TX with no > problems whatsoever. I also have Windows 3.1 and Windows For Workgroups 3.11 on the machine. I installed NT 3.1 and the network for that was fine (if I remember correctly). So, I don't think there is anything wrong with the card itself, but there is something not right with my installation of Windows 95 itself. I'll have another look at some point. > > My phone screening software runs on 98SE on an old 400MHz Neoware VIA > thin client 24/7 and has been doing so for months. > > Supposedly, WinME with appropriate patches is even more solid, but I've > never tried it. > > FWIW, > Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 16:07:12 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 16:07:12 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <4BE09697-2239-460F-934C-DA0A99295973@nf6x.net> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <4BE09697-2239-460F-934C-DA0A99295973@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Yeah, Commodore USA folded years ago, far as I can tell. On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > The manufacturer links are all 404 and the video was from 2011. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 17:19:50 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:19:50 +1300 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 10:29 PM, Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Here are the options to attach 3340 DASD emulation to an IBM System/3 > > 1) direct connect to the internal channel of the S/3. Some disk OEM's did > this. > Requires a FPGA with at one side MST-1 interface logic and at the other side > IDE or SCSI interface. > The availabe IBM documentation is complete enough to finish this project. > You need good IBM HW & VHDL knowledge. Oh interesting - I had no idea! Do you have names and product numbers for those OEMs? Any more info? Ever seen one? If they were sold commercially by OEMs then the project already IS finished so to speak; it's just a question of *finding* one! Or finding the documentation and using that as a basis for re-creating the OEM solution. It doesn't require any hard-to-perform or reverse changes to the S/3? No backplane rework or wire wrap? It was just a case of plugging OEM cards into appropriate slots? > 2) direct connect to the BUS/TAG interface connector. > This needs a 8+P bit stream. You have to do some reverse engineering to > figure out what the exact format is. > I have no idea if the HW must be implemented in a FPGA (for timing reasons) > or if an AVR processor will do the job. > Advantage is that you don't have to modify anything inside the S/3. And the other advantage is that it could be part of a more generalizable device that could be used to replace other Bus/Tag peripherals on other IBM systems... if some of us were to start a home-brew project that might be the best approach to take. > 3) IBM has implemented an IOP (I/O Processor) between the S/3 CPU and the > 3340 drives. > This IOP is a modified version of the ones used in the IBM 370/115 & 125. It > is a powerfull multi thread capable beast. > With small HW modification you can connect an IDE or SCSI drives to it. > The difficult part is modifying the firmware of the IOP. This requires a > special assembler (to be written) and very good assembler skill's. If IBM have already implemented it then ready to use IOPs exist or at one time existed out there in the wild... your reference to modifying IOP firmware... do you mean to connect to the S/3 - or to attach IDE or SCSI? Or both? Does this IOP have an IBM model number? Was it a separate box or a set of cards and backplane that could be installed in the 370? I hope to be getting a 370/125 next year... Fascinating info Henk; I had no idea any of this stuff existed. I thought the only options for S/3 5415 were real hardware 3340s or nothing. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Dec 27 18:44:33 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 19:44:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <0e0c01d140ec$164fe7d0$42efb770$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> <56804B1D.8090309@sydex.com> <0e0c01d140ec$164fe7d0$42efb770$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <568085F1.70206@compsys.to> >Robert Jarratt wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck >>Guzis >>Sent: 27 December 2015 20:34 >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Subject: Re: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers >> >>On 12/27/2015 01:57 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >>>Thanks Marc. The drivers from the HP Enterprise site worked, although >>>for Windows 95 I have been unable to get TCP/IP working. DHCP is not >>>working and ping moans about a wrong protocol. It looks like I am >>>missing VUDP.386 and I could not find it on the Windows 95 CD. I am >>>pretty sure I have another CD with OSR2 somewhere, but I can't find it >>>at the moment. Will have another look at some point, but I think the >>>driver itself is just fine now. >>> >>> >>For what it's worth, I use Win98SE as the minimum Win9x version on my >>systems. Many fewer bugs than 95 and the minidriver platform has a degree >>of compatibility with NT/2K/XP. I run a Linksys WMP-54GS wireless PCI LAN >>adapter on 98SE, for example with no issues. >> >I should probably also set up 98. I chose 95 because it was quite an >important version of Windows, and it is just nice to see how it used to be. > > >>And I have a similar 98SE/XP/Debian K6 box using the 3C905-TX with no >>problems whatsoever. >> I am also running Win98SE on a 750 MHz Pentium III with 768 MB of memory and 160 GB ATA 100 hard drives. Unfortunately, the BIOS supports hard drives only up to 131 GB, but since the original hard drives were more expensive and were only 40 GB, I was really very pleased. It also has both 3.5" and 5 1/4" floppy drivers, an Adaptec AHA2940AU host adapter and several DVD and CD drives. One of the really KEY aspects of the hardware is a video card which supports FULL SCREEN mode at 80 columns and 132 columns at many different lines including BOTH 24 lines and 50 lines for 80 columns PLUS 24 lines and 44 lines for 132 columns. The primary program which uses this hardware is the PDP-11 emulator, Ersatz-11, which is probably used 90% of the time and I run normal Netscape 7.2 for e-mail the other 10% of the time. This system is more than 12 years old. All of the original 40 GB hard drivers have been replaced along with the power supply. Indeed, even the replacement power supply is inadequate and I have managed to continue by using a separate power supply just for the hard disk drives which I presume sufficiently reduces the load for the power supply for the motherboard and floppies. Since I am a real Windows dummy, I hesitate to upgrade to a current I7 CPU with SATA hard drives. Is there any reasonable possibility of using an I7 CPU with Win98SE? Are there still I7 motherboards which support at least one floppy at a time - either 3.5" or 5 1/4" floppies? Are there any Video cards available which still support FULL SCREEN mode at 132 columns? Mainly, I would stay with the 12 year old system for another 25 years if I had reliable spare parts and Netscape 7.2 would still continue to support e-mail with newsgroups that are still a small but vital link to other activity that I find interesting. Are there used hardware parts still available for a Pentium III system? I realize that there are no guarantees, but where would I find sources for such hardware? Note that if I stopped running Ersatz-11 in FULL SCREEN mode, then I could easily switch to a different system. In that respect, I probably have accumulated over 100,000 e-mails and posts from newsgroups (mostly the latter, of course). Is is possible to transfer the e-mails and posts to Microsoft junk or is there a better e-mail application like Thunderbird? Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 27 19:27:18 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 17:27:18 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers In-Reply-To: <568085F1.70206@compsys.to> References: <002701d14082$c94f7950$5bee6bf0$@gmail.com> <0dd501d1408c$fdd04920$f970db60$@ntlworld.com> <56804B1D.8090309@sydex.com> <0e0c01d140ec$164fe7d0$42efb770$@ntlworld.com> <568085F1.70206@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56808FF6.9060401@sydex.com> On 12/27/2015 04:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Since I am a real Windows dummy, I hesitate to upgrade to a current > I7 CPU with SATA hard drives. Is there any reasonable possibility of > using an I7 CPU with Win98SE? Are there still I7 motherboards which > support at least one floppy at a time - either 3.5" or 5 1/4" > floppies? Are there any Video cards available which still support > FULL SCREEN mode at 132 columns? Mainly, I would stay with the 12 > year old system for another 25 years if I had reliable spare parts > and Netscape 7.2 would still continue to support e-mail with > newsgroups that are still a small but vital link to other activity > that I find interesting. Are there used hardware parts still > available for a Pentium III system? I realize that there are no > guarantees, but where would I find sources for such hardware? I haven't tried to run Win98SE directly on an I7; at that point, I'm usually running VirtualBox or another emulator, which allows me to tailor the (virtual) hardware characteristics to what Windows wants. Asrock seems to have quite a few motherboards that retain both a legacy floppy connector as well as an ATA one, in addition to the usual SATA and USB3 ones. I've had few problems with their Socket AM3+ boards. However, only a single floppy drive is supported. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Dec 27 21:01:36 2015 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 16:01:36 +1300 Subject: Apple IIe Platinum key mechanism replacement Message-ID: Making my junk look less like junk. Nothing groundbreaking for the engineers in this group but may be of interest to those voyeurs/nostalgerists that like looking at close-ups of the keycaps...or not... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-27-appleiIIe-plantinum-keycap-replacement.htm Terry (Tez) From macro at linux-mips.org Sun Dec 27 21:35:33 2015 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 03:35:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > The SCSI drives will transparently map out bad sectors, presenting a > > apparently defect free disk (except while a sector as actually failing > > :) so the image should be fine to any SCSI drive of that size or > > larger (or an sd2scsi type device) > > Well, I guess what I'm wondering is: if the SCSI controller or the > disk's PCB exposes an interface to the disk that makes it appear > defect-free, what happens when an OS tries to write to sectors that > actually have defects? I guess this is a good question for any sort of > hard disk, not just vintage or Sun ones. My understanding was that > yes, this was mostly transparent, but that at minimum the number of > usable sectors reported to the OS would go down as sectors get marked > bad. SCSI disks are most often shipped formatted with a pool of spare sectors available beyond the nominal externally visible capacity, although the firmware of many allows reformatting with the size of the pool altered, at the most extreme to zero. The pool is often partitioned into concentric zones, called "notches" in SCSI-speak, with a different number of spares assigned per notch (the number of regular data sectors per track will also vary between notches then), although not all firmware exposes notches to interfacing software, and some firmware may not allow reformatting at all. Other than as parameters for the SCSI format command and statistics these spare sectors are invisible to software and are allocated to replace sectors at failed medium spots transparently, although often at a performance cost, because of the out-of-place location of reallocated sectors incurring an additional seek or rotational delay in linear access. Reformatting a drive that has reallocated sectors present will normally reduce the cost or remove it altogether as logical sector positions are reassigned in a linear manner with bad spots already taken into account (skipped over). When reallocation fails because of the pool of spares having exhausted, the originating SCSI command will return a hard failure. The same will happen when a medium error happens and reallocation has been disabled. There are two control bits which control reallocation, ARRE and AWRE, which enable sector reallocation on reads and writes respectively. In the former case reallocation is only made when a medium error is benign enough for error correction (if implemented) to be able to recover data actually read; firmware will usually retry a read a number of times before it gives up and returns a hard error. I have actually seen such retries to succeed sometimes, at which point reallocation prevented further issues at the particular logical sector. In the latter case reallocation is always made for writes to sectors previously observed as bad and not reallocated in a read. Which is why wiping out a disk which previously returned read errors will normally fix it from the logical point of view, without the need to reformat it. When the pool of spare sectors has been exhausted, the only way to revive a failing disk is to reformat it with its externally visible capacity reduced, as long as the firmware permits it. Marking blocks as bad at the filesystem level would be the distant second choice here, as the presence of bad (unrelocated) sectors often hurts read prefetches very badly. The acronyms stand for Automatic Read (Write) Reallocation Enable BTW. I hope this clarifies the matters here a bit. Maciej From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Dec 27 23:45:32 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 00:45:32 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online Message-ID: <5680CC7C.6090300@snarc.net> Good news! A bunch of old VCF East/West videos are going onto YouTube, thanks to ANTIC / Atari Podcast's Kevin Savetz stepping forward to do the grunt work. The first batch are talks from VCF East 6.0 (2009). YouTube playlist is at https://t.co/yYRr7rP7R4. We also asked Jason Scott to bring the videos into Archive.org as they go online. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 00:26:45 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 00:26:45 -0600 Subject: DEC Unibus backplanes/options Message-ID: I have the following backplanes, most have all the boards with them. DB11-A bus repeater DH11-A 16 chan com DP11-PA DR11-B general purpose interface DV11- RK611- I have one put aside for another list member RM11-A massbus TM03 tape formatter Several DD11-D backplanes- 9 slot spc Please contact me off list if you have any questions or interest. There may be a few more later. Shipping from 61853 Thanks, Paul From marc.verdiell at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 02:00:08 2015 From: marc.verdiell at gmail.com (Marc Verdiell) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 00:00:08 -0800 Subject: Looking for 3COM 3C905-TX Drivers Message-ID: <005a01d14145$c5eb3510$51c19f30$@gmail.com> You need OSR2, and even then it's hard to get Win95 OSR2 to work reliably with TCP/IP. You'll first need to add the TCP/IP client for Microsoft Networks protocol, as it's not even installed by default (darn Microsoft!). By default it has only NetBUI and Netware, which must have paid them money... I could browse the web, but not get file sharing working. In the end I switched to Win98 SE and it was a lot smoother on the networking side. Marc >From: "Robert Jarratt" >The drivers from the HP Enterprise site worked, although for >Windows 95 I have been unable to get TCP/IP working. DHCP is not working and >ping moans about a wrong protocol. It looks like I am missing VUDP.386 and I >could not find it on the Windows 95 CD. I am pretty sure I have another CD >with OSR2 somewhere, but I can't find it at the moment. Will have another >look at some point, but I think the driver itself is just fine now. >Regards >Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 28 03:45:54 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 09:45:54 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me Message-ID: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Hi Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. I think LBL must have bought one of everything. The story (true) is not bad either. I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Rod From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 28 03:46:57 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 04:46:57 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online Message-ID: <14f95f.61f29ff4.43b25f11@aol.com> Did they ever get the plaque dedication video finished Evan? Ed# In a message dated 12/27/2015 10:45:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: Good news! A bunch of old VCF East/West videos are going onto YouTube, thanks to ANTIC / Atari Podcast's Kevin Savetz stepping forward to do the grunt work. The first batch are talks from VCF East 6.0 (2009). YouTube playlist is at https://t.co/yYRr7rP7R4. We also asked Jason Scott to bring the videos into Archive.org as they go online. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 28 04:06:18 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 02:06:18 -0800 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> On 12/28/2015 1:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) > its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, > Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. > > I think LBL must have bought one of everything. > The story (true) is not bad either. > > I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. > > Ron I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend of mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen him for 30 years...) Ron Vivier was a programmer @ Microdata for a couple of years before leaving and moving to the Bay area and resurfacing @ Tymnet. There was a lull for a bit then all of a sudden the story about Stoll trapping the guy made headlines, and there in the front of it was Ron. He did what I'd have expected him to do, but the people covering the story didn't get that was in his nature to help like that. I ended up with the desk cleanout droppings from his desk and kept most of it for years, and still owe him a chess clock (which is around here somewhere). Still has his name dymo'ed on the top. I found the video you posted about, will take a look tomorrow, late here tonight. thanks for the lead. Wonder what Stoll is up to these days. Thanks Jim From jws at jwsss.com Mon Dec 28 04:09:46 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 02:09:46 -0800 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56810A6A.4090203@jwsss.com> On 12/28/2015 1:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Ron Funny I googled and found a final exam at a university which was posted for 2004. I guess I'd have missed one question because they said that it was Roy (not Ron) Vivier at Tymnet. I'd have gotten his name right, where the instructor screwed up. Cuckoo's egg was taught apparently as a topic in the Business College http://faculty.wwu.edu/auer/MIS323/MIS323CuckoosEgg.htm Oh well. thanks Jim From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 28 04:37:22 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:37:22 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> On 28/12/2015 10:06, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 12/28/2015 1:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Hi >> Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) >> its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, >> Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. >> >> I think LBL must have bought one of everything. >> The story (true) is not bad either. >> >> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. >> >> Ron > I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend > of mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen > him for 30 years...) > > Ron Vivier was a programmer @ Microdata for a couple of years before > leaving and moving to the Bay area and resurfacing @ Tymnet. There > was a lull for a bit then all of a sudden the story about Stoll > trapping the guy made headlines, and there in the front of it was > Ron. He did what I'd have expected him to do, but the people covering > the story didn't get that was in his nature to help like that. > > I ended up with the desk cleanout droppings from his desk and kept > most of it for years, and still owe him a chess clock (which is around > here somewhere). Still has his name dymo'ed on the top. > > I found the video you posted about, will take a look tomorrow, late > here tonight. thanks for the lead. Wonder what Stoll is up to these > days. > > Thanks > Jim Very interesting comments. Stoll has a bit of a wesite.. He's an astronomer just like he said. Also he also says stay at home dad. (Wife is lawyer I guess) Did anybody spot the visual reference to a well known rock star also a Phd astronomer. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Dec 28 04:49:27 2015 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:49:27 +0000 Subject: Apple IIe Platinum key mechanism replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 December 2015 at 03:01, Terry Stewart wrote: > Making my junk look less like junk. Nothing groundbreaking for the > engineers in this group but may be of interest to those > voyeurs/nostalgerists that like looking at close-ups of the keycaps...or > not... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-12-27-appleiIIe-plantinum-keycap-replacement.htm > > Terry (Tez) > We used to do that with Mac keyboard until they started making them in China or something.... as a new keyboard used to cost $80. Mice as well. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From mark at matlockfamily.com Sun Dec 27 22:15:43 2015 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 22:15:43 -0600 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems Message-ID: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> I have a MINC-23 that I am in the process of restoring. On the hardware side, I modified the BDV11 ROMs with some help from Malcolm Macleod on the boot eprom images so that I could boot a DU device directly from a 11/23 (not plus). It boots an Emulex UC07 and a SCSI2SD so I can load various images on to the microSD card. I found a microSD to normal SD adapter which I plan to mount through one of the MINC blank front panels (with a blinking drive activity LED of course), so that changing disks is convenient. Currently, the SCSI2SD is formatted as four RD54 drives which are a convenient size to load individual images with the dd command on Linux or Mac OSX. Currently, I can boot both RT-11 or RSX11M with either 11/23 or 11/73 CPUs (limited to 256KB by the MINC Q18 bus). The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. Please contact me if you have any of these packages or would just like to compare notes on the MINC hardware. I am still gathering diagnostics and documentation to check out the analog to digital, programable clock, digital to analog, and digital I/O cards. Someone mentioned earlier the "Minicomputer in the Laboratory" book by James Cooper and I have found it to be very helpful as well. Thanks and Happy New Year! Mark From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 22:35:54 2015 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:35:54 -0800 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> References: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > > The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. > I have an RX02 floppy labeled: BA-L796C-BC RT-11/FEP V2.2 INSTL BIN RX2 (C) 1983 I don't know if that would help. I'll have to look and see if I have already created an image of this disk. If not it might take some time before I get setup again to create RX02 disk images. -Glen From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Dec 28 06:53:07 2015 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:53:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC Unibus backplanes/options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <244714217.6386844.1451307187397.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> > RM11-A massbus > TM03 tape formatter > Does anybody from the list know the exact difference between the RM11 and the RH11? I could find barely any information about the RM11 except that is also seems to talk Massbus like the RH11... Best wishes, Pierre From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Dec 28 09:20:30 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:20:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems Message-ID: <20151228152030.26E4518C0B2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Matlock > either 11/23 or 11/73 CPUs (limited to 256KB by the MINC Q18 bus) Have you thought about upgrading the backplane/bus to 22 bits (shouldn't be too hard) - or do you want to keep it original? Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 28 09:38:11 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 07:38:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stoll (Was: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> Message-ID: >> I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend of >> mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen him for >> 30 years...) > On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Stoll has a bit of a wesite.. He's an astronomer just like he said. Also he > also says stay at home dad. (Wife is lawyer I guess) > Did anybody spot the visual reference to a well known rock star also a Phd > astronomer. and don't forget his home business! http://www.kleinbottle.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 09:42:47 2015 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:42:47 -0500 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) > its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, > Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. > > I think LBL must have bought one of everything. > The story (true) is not bad either. > > I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Seen it and can recommend. I also have the book. My (utterly tenuous) tie-in with the events is that one of our COMBOARD customers was impacted by the hacker's bouncing around Tymenet and they changed how we had to log into their system to diagnose and fix our product on their machines. I asked why, they said it was "that damn hacker and that damn book!" -ethan From ethan at 757.org Mon Dec 28 09:43:53 2015 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > Stoll has a bit of a wesite.. He's an astronomer just like he said. Also he > also says stay at home dad. (Wife is lawyer I guess) > Did anybody spot the visual reference to a well known rock star also a Phd > astronomer. Stoll bought some sort of glassware in bulk and sells it, but he didn't have storage space so he uses a ROV thing to move product around the crawlspace: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU -- Ethan O'Toole From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 28 10:13:23 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 08:13:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? > No. The company folded years ago after the founder and driving force behind the whole mess, died. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 28 10:14:59 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 16:14:59 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56816003.9040002@btinternet.com> On 28/12/2015 15:43, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Stoll has a bit of a wesite.. He's an astronomer just like he said. >> Also he also says stay at home dad. (Wife is lawyer I guess) >> Did anybody spot the visual reference to a well known rock star also >> a Phd astronomer. > > Stoll bought some sort of glassware in bulk and sells it, but he > didn't have storage space so he uses a ROV thing to move product > around the crawlspace: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > I love this guy! I bet he has a time travelling DeLorean in his garage Rod From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 28 10:27:17 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 08:27:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56816003.9040002@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> <56816003.9040002@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I love this guy! > I bet he has a time travelling DeLorean in his garage At one point, he mentioned wanting to create a punched card driven webserver. For a while, he had a show on MSNBC. He wanted to shoot an episode in my office, due to the piles of old computer junk. I gave him a small "irreparably damaged" core plane. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Dec 28 10:52:16 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 16:52:16 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> <56816003.9040002@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <568168C0.8070004@btinternet.com> On 28/12/2015 16:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> I love this guy! >> I bet he has a time travelling DeLorean in his garage > > At one point, he mentioned wanting to create a punched card driven > webserver. > For a while, he had a show on MSNBC. He wanted to shoot an episode in > my office, due to the piles of old computer junk. > I gave him a small "irreparably damaged" core plane. > > Well Whilst a mechanical card system is perhaps not a good way to go a vitual card and tape system is another matter. Take one pile of assorted systems. Label the first 'Card Reader' The second Card punch The next Tape reader Then tape punch ... CPU ... Memory ... and so on go to card punch system press a key for next card. - card appears on the screen using key pad key in data - holes appear The rest you can guess. Instead of running jobs in a real old DP shop you simulate it using systems to stand in for each device. Set up in a large open area and you have the ultimate Multiuser Team RPG called 'Computer Operations' Online no-problem Do I feel like being a line printer to-night? Rod From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Dec 28 11:32:31 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:32:31 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online In-Reply-To: <14f95f.61f29ff4.43b25f11@aol.com> References: <14f95f.61f29ff4.43b25f11@aol.com> Message-ID: <5681722F.8050004@snarc.net> > Did they ever get the plaque dedication video finished Evan? > Ed# They? From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 11:39:43 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:39:43 -0500 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, tony duell wrote: > [...] I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). > This discussion bumped my memory a little and I was wanting to do it. Has anyone tried this or does anyone have knowledge of why it should or shouldn't work? -thx jake From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Dec 28 11:54:41 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:54:41 -0500 Subject: Canvas Print of part of a PDP-1 Message-ID: <20151228175441.GY17110@ns1.bonedaddy.net> For what it's worth, I bought myself a Christmas present of: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151918395795 Which is a print of a PDP-1 system (well, part of one anyway) on canvas. It's not inexpensive but the ePay auction has a %-off "sale" going on and the web site has coupons available to reduce the list price. If you don't want to deal with ePay then you can check out their web site at http://www.greatbigcanvas.com. No connection and I can certainly understand that people might want to spend the not inconsiderable amount on real hardware but I was pleased with the result when it arrived today. Todd From isking at uw.edu Mon Dec 28 12:10:43 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:10:43 -0800 Subject: Stoll (Was: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <568110E2.1020205@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 7:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend of >>> mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen him for >>> 30 years...) >>> >> >> On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Stoll has a bit of a wesite.. He's an astronomer just like he said. Also >> he also says stay at home dad. (Wife is lawyer I guess) >> Did anybody spot the visual reference to a well known rock star also a >> Phd astronomer. >> > > and don't forget his home business! > http://www.kleinbottle.com/ > > > I love his truth in advertising: he explains just how impractical several of the items are. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 28 12:26:55 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:26:55 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online Message-ID: <165be3.21b8f8d1.43b2d8ef@aol.com> or who ever was supposed to get it done! Ed# In a message dated 12/28/2015 10:32:51 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: > Did they ever get the plaque dedication video finished Evan? > Ed# They? From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Dec 28 12:32:54 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:32:54 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online In-Reply-To: <165be3.21b8f8d1.43b2d8ef@aol.com> References: <165be3.21b8f8d1.43b2d8ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <56818056.2090008@snarc.net> > or who ever was supposed to get it done! > Ed# I don't know what "plaque dedication" you're talking about. Email me privately / off-list. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 12:56:24 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:56:24 -0400 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> On 2015-12-28 12:13 PM, geneb wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: > >> Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >> > No. The company folded years ago after the founder and driving force > behind the whole mess, died. > > g. > The man who founded Commodore, Jack Tramiel resigned from the company in 1984, Commodore went on for another 10 years before declaring bankruptcy in 1994. Tramiel died of heart failure in 2012. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 28 12:25:35 2015 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 10:25:35 -0800 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: References: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> Message-ID: <20151228102535.2a042ed6@asrock.bcwi.net> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:35:54 -0800 Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 8:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > > > > The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. > > > > I have an RX02 floppy labeled: > BA-L796C-BC > RT-11/FEP V2.2 INSTL BIN RX2 > (C) 1983 > > I don't know if that would help. I'll have to look and see if I have > already created an image of this disk. If not it might take some time > before I get setup again to create RX02 disk images. I'd be interested in these images, too (I also have an 11/23 MINC)... Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brain at jbrain.com Mon Dec 28 13:00:45 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:00:45 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <568186DD.9050908@jbrain.com> On 12/28/2015 12:56 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2015-12-28 12:13 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: >> >>> Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >>> >> No. The company folded years ago after the founder and driving force >> behind the whole mess, died. >> >> g. >> > The man who founded Commodore, Jack Tramiel resigned from the company > in 1984, Commodore went on for another 10 years before declaring > bankruptcy in 1994. Tramiel died of heart failure in 2012. He meant the founder of Commodore USA (Barry Altman) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_USA -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 13:08:48 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 13:08:48 -0600 Subject: DEC Unibus backplanes/options In-Reply-To: <244714217.6386844.1451307187397.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <244714217.6386844.1451307187397.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Opps... I never said I could type... It should be an RH11- Thanks Pierre On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 6:53 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > > > > RM11-A massbus > > TM03 tape formatter > > > > > Does anybody from the list know the exact difference between the RM11 and > the RH11? I could find barely any information about the RM11 except that is > also seems to talk Massbus like the RH11... > > Best wishes, > Pierre > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 28 13:25:51 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 14:25:51 -0500 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online Message-ID: is this Evan? if In a message dated 12/28/2015 11:33:10 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at snarc.net writes: > or who ever was supposed to get it done! > Ed# I don't know what "plaque dedication" you're talking about. Email me privately / off-list. From isking at uw.edu Mon Dec 28 13:27:17 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:27:17 -0800 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: <20151228102535.2a042ed6@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> <20151228102535.2a042ed6@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 10:25 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:35:54 -0800 > Glen Slick wrote: > [snip] > > > > I don't know if that would help. I'll have to look and see if I have > > already created an image of this disk. If not it might take some time > > before I get setup again to create RX02 disk images. > > I'd be interested in these images, too (I also have an 11/23 MINC)... > > Cheers, > Lyle > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > I started such a project a while back, and grad school intervened. :-) But with all this interest, I'll see if I can't disinter my MINC and try it again. I'm pretty sure I have these packages and a lot more, and I really need to get them imaged of RX02s before the oxide starts falling off. :-) I have a MINC-11, but I put an 11/23 processor in it - 18-bit addressing, though, and I DO want to keep it stock so I'm not going to modify the backplane for 22-bit addressing, as much as I'd like that extra working store space! -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 28 14:09:49 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 15:09:49 -0500 Subject: Canvas Print of part of a PDP-1 Message-ID: looks good Todd! wall art is good to have! Ed# In a message dated 12/28/2015 10:54:47 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, tsg at bonedaddy.net writes: For what it's worth, I bought myself a Christmas present of: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151918395795 Which is a print of a PDP-1 system (well, part of one anyway) on canvas. It's not inexpensive but the ePay auction has a %-off "sale" going on and the web site has coupons available to reduce the list price. If you don't want to deal with ePay then you can check out their web site at http://www.greatbigcanvas.com. No connection and I can certainly understand that people might want to spend the not inconsiderable amount on real hardware but I was pleased with the result when it arrived today. Todd From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Dec 28 14:25:57 2015 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip In-Reply-To: <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> References: <567FC1C9.7020505@gmail.com> <568185D8.3060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Dec 2015, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2015-12-28 12:13 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015, Mike wrote: >> >>> Would you buy the new Commodore 64 ? ? ? >>> >> No. The company folded years ago after the founder and driving force >> behind the whole mess, died. >> >> g. >> > The man who founded Commodore, Jack Tramiel resigned from the company in > 1984, Commodore went on for another 10 years before declaring bankruptcy in > 1994. Tramiel died of heart failure in 2012. I'm well aware of that (as are most if not all Commodore nerds). I was referring to the guy that stood up Commodore USA to build PCs in a similar form factor to the original breadbox C-64. He died unexpectedly and the company folded. It would have likely done so anyway, but Barry Altman's untimely death hastened it. Don't try to teach your grandmother how to steal sheep. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 28 15:06:03 2015 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:06:03 -0000 Subject: Pulling Capacitors From Above Message-ID: <020401d141b3$8f9eb770$aedc2650$@ntlworld.com> I have resolved that to get my H7874 PSU working better I am going to have to bite the bullet and replace some electrolytic capacitors which cannot be desoldered from below, at least not without some significant surgery on the board (there are components soldered to the underside of the board and attached to a large heatsink, all those components would have to be desoldered so that the heatsink can be removed to get access to the underside of the board). I have had the suggestion to pull the old ones out from above, and then solder in the new ones from above. These are relatively small radial types (330uF, 25V). I am sure the pins will just pull out of the bodies of the capacitors, leaving me to desolder the pins from above, which should be OK. But, I am worried about doing damage to the board by just pulling them "cold". Are they really just going to pull out of the capacitor body, or does anyone have any tips for doing this in the least damaging way possible? Thanks Rob From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon Dec 28 13:09:29 2015 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 20:09:29 +0100 Subject: IBM channel-attached DASD emulation Message-ID: Hi Mike, A few corrections: 1) Some disk OEM's produced 3340 compatable diskdrives in the 70's. The OEM manufacturer connected their equipment direct to the internal S/3 channel. I have only seen 1 CPU at a scrapper which had this. 2) The BUS/TAG connector/cables are the same as used by IBM for 360/370 channel, but are used between the IOP and the 3340 disk string. They do not carry 360 channel signals but special IOP --> disk signals. 3) CPU --- int chan ---> IOP ---> IDE/SCSI drive. (IOP has modified HW & FW) See: http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/fe/3125/SY3 3-1063-1_3125_Processing_Unit_Input_Output_Processor_Nov73.pdf Regards Henk ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~ On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 10:29 PM, Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi Mike, > > Here are the options to attach 3340 DASD emulation to an IBM System/3 > > 1) direct connect to the internal channel of the S/3. Some disk OEM's did > this. > Requires a FPGA with at one side MST-1 interface logic and at the other side > IDE or SCSI interface. > The availabe IBM documentation is complete enough to finish this project. > You need good IBM HW & VHDL knowledge. Oh interesting - I had no idea! Do you have names and product numbers for those OEMs? Any more info? Ever seen one? If they were sold commercially by OEMs then the project already IS finished so to speak; it's just a question of *finding* one! Or finding the documentation and using that as a basis for re-creating the OEM solution. It doesn't require any hard-to-perform or reverse changes to the S/3? No backplane rework or wire wrap? It was just a case of plugging OEM cards into appropriate slots? > 2) direct connect to the BUS/TAG interface connector. > This needs a 8+P bit stream. You have to do some reverse engineering to > figure out what the exact format is. > I have no idea if the HW must be implemented in a FPGA (for timing reasons) > or if an AVR processor will do the job. > Advantage is that you don't have to modify anything inside the S/3. And the other advantage is that it could be part of a more generalizable device that could be used to replace other Bus/Tag peripherals on other IBM systems... if some of us were to start a home-brew project that might be the best approach to take. > 3) IBM has implemented an IOP (I/O Processor) between the S/3 CPU and the > 3340 drives. > This IOP is a modified version of the ones used in the IBM 370/115 & 125. It > is a powerfull multi thread capable beast. > With small HW modification you can connect an IDE or SCSI drives to it. > The difficult part is modifying the firmware of the IOP. This requires a > special assembler (to be written) and very good assembler skill's. If IBM have already implemented it then ready to use IOPs exist or at one time existed out there in the wild... your reference to modifying IOP firmware... do you mean to connect to the S/3 - or to attach IDE or SCSI? Or both? Does this IOP have an IBM model number? Was it a separate box or a set of cards and backplane that could be installed in the 370? I hope to be getting a 370/125 next year... Fascinating info Henk; I had no idea any of this stuff existed. I thought the only options for S/3 5415 were real hardware 3340s or nothing. Mike From me at xenu.pl Mon Dec 28 17:00:39 2015 From: me at xenu.pl (Tomasz Konojacki) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 00:00:39 +0100 Subject: Mysterious "Alcatel 7100" machine Message-ID: <20151229000037.1B1A.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> Hello, So I was browsing allegro (something like polish ebay) and I've found this: http://allegro.pl/alcatel-7100-rarytas-unikat-zabytek-i5889329416.html What kind of computer/device is this? Judging from the listing description, seller seems to know nothing about the machine. The only remotely relevant thing I've found while googling "alcatel 7100" was [1], but I think it's a red herring. This device definitely does *not* look like an ordinary 386/486 PC clone. [1] - http://www.museo8bits.es/wiki/index.php/Lista_de_ordenadores_compatibles_con_Windows_3.1 Cheers, Tomasz From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 19:33:40 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 19:33:40 -0600 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The C-64 video output +is+ S-Video.. nothing to convert so much, as just making the correct cable for your application. You just need to get the Chroma and Luma signals (and possibly the audio as well) from the port. That's S-Video.. On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, tony duell > wrote: > > > [...] I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). > > > > This discussion bumped my memory a little and I was wanting to do it. Has > anyone tried this or does anyone have knowledge of why it should or > shouldn't work? > > -thx > jake > From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 21:47:04 2015 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 21:47:04 -0600 Subject: Old VCF East/West videos are going online Message-ID: Woohoo! Thanks to everyone involved in the efforts! From cube1 at charter.net Mon Dec 28 17:51:45 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:51:45 -0600 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> References: <612A6F87-2371-4E3D-9734-4372EB1C2A46@matlockfamily.com> Message-ID: <5681CB11.4090101@charter.net> On 12/27/2015 10:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > I have a MINC-23 that I am in the process of restoring. On the hardware side, I modified the BDV11 ROMs with some help from Malcolm Macleod on the boot eprom images so that I could boot a DU device directly from a 11/23 (not plus). > > It boots an Emulex UC07 and a SCSI2SD so I can load various images on to the microSD card. I found a microSD to normal SD adapter which I plan to mount through one of the MINC blank front panels (with a blinking drive activity LED of course), so that changing disks is convenient. Currently, the SCSI2SD is formatted as four RD54 drives which are a convenient size to load individual images with the dd command on Linux or Mac OSX. Currently, I can boot both RT-11 or RSX11M with either 11/23 or 11/73 CPUs (limited to 256KB by the MINC Q18 bus). > > The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. > > Please contact me if you have any of these packages or would just like to compare notes on the MINC hardware. I am still gathering diagnostics and documentation to check out the analog to digital, programable clock, digital to analog, and digital I/O cards. Someone mentioned earlier the "Minicomputer in the Laboratory" book by James Cooper and I have found it to be very helpful as well. > > Thanks and Happy New Year! > Mark > I have some MINC hardware (also a MINC/23 I think) and software, but it does not look like I have what you are looking for. What I do have images of (except for the one marked "(Bad)" that seem likely MINC related: RX01: CONTENTS COMMENT LAB Applications-11 Library V3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YB, NSUM=41906 LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 1 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA1, NSUM=56190 LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 2 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA2, NSUM=28900 LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 3 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA3, NSUM=65055 CONTENTS COMMENT PLOT, Ver June '80 DECUS 11-381 RT-11 Media(KA) (Bad) MINC BASIC/FORTRAN IV VIR TERM DECUS 11-417 RT-11, NSUM=22281 PLOTTING PKG For RT-11 FORTRAN DECUS 11-431 RT-11, NSUM=12228 LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 1 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=15424 LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 2 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=1369 LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 3 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=2841 LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 4 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=21353 FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 1 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=14187 FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 2 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=26552 RX02: CONTENTS COMMENT MINC MA DEMO/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J837B-BC, NSUM=04649 MINC MA DEMO/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H107D-BC, NSUM=58263 MINC MA SYS/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J836B-BC, NSUM=17510 MINC MA SYS/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H106D-BC, NSUM=61253 From shumaker at att.net Mon Dec 28 20:10:05 2015 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:10:05 -0800 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5681EB7D.3070602@att.net> On 12/28/2015 2:06 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 12/28/2015 1:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Hi >> Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) >> its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, >> Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. >> >> I think LBL must have bought one of everything. >> The story (true) is not bad either. >> >> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. >> >> Ron > I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend > of mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen > him for 30 years...) > > Ron Vivier was a programmer @ Microdata for a couple of years before > leaving and moving to the Bay area and resurfacing @ Tymnet. There > was a lull for a bit then all of a sudden the story about Stoll > trapping the guy made headlines, and there in the front of it was > Ron. He did what I'd have expected him to do, but the people covering > the story didn't get that was in his nature to help like that. > > I ended up with the desk cleanout droppings from his desk and kept > most of it for years, and still owe him a chess clock (which is around > here somewhere). Still has his name dymo'ed on the top. > > I found the video you posted about, will take a look tomorrow, late > here tonight. thanks for the lead. Wonder what Stoll is up to these > days. > > Thanks > Jim > among the other activities mentioned here, he still gets speaking invitations to law enforcement functions. He has a habit of showing up with a large envelope of viewgraph slides asking for an overhead projector. steve shumaker (yes... I was there - the book is actually rather accurate) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 29 01:34:50 2015 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 23:34:50 -0800 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <5681EB7D.3070602@att.net> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <5681EB7D.3070602@att.net> Message-ID: On 2015-Dec-28, at 6:10 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > On 12/28/2015 2:06 AM, jwsmobile wrote: >> >> On 12/28/2015 1:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> Hi >>> Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) >>> its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, >>> Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. >>> >>> I think LBL must have bought one of everything. >>> The story (true) is not bad either. >>> >>> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. >>> >>> Ron >> I have not seen that, but have the Stoll Book, Cuckoo's Egg. A friend of mine is central to this, and is in the book (though I've not seen him for 30 years...) >> >> Ron Vivier was a programmer @ Microdata for a couple of years before leaving and moving to the Bay area and resurfacing @ Tymnet. There was a lull for a bit then all of a sudden the story about Stoll trapping the guy made headlines, and there in the front of it was Ron. He did what I'd have expected him to do, but the people covering the story didn't get that was in his nature to help like that. >> >> I ended up with the desk cleanout droppings from his desk and kept most of it for years, and still owe him a chess clock (which is around here somewhere). Still has his name dymo'ed on the top. >> >> I found the video you posted about, will take a look tomorrow, late here tonight. thanks for the lead. Wonder what Stoll is up to these days. >> >> Thanks >> Jim >> > among the other activities mentioned here, he still gets speaking invitations to law enforcement functions. He has a habit of showing up with a large envelope of viewgraph slides asking for an overhead projector. > > steve shumaker > (yes... I was there - the book is actually rather accurate) I didn't recognise the title at first, watched it and realised I had watched it previously. Sure was a snapshot of the time - even a trip to Radio Shack. Even had a sexy shower scene. In 1985 I was setting up our new email system at CERN, and the email system had a security flaw that allowed the users' mail access passwords to be seen. This in of itself wasn't too big deal as there was little a hacker could do with it (only get access to mail pickup, and you'd need a system that talked X.400, which weren't prevalent). What made it a big security problem, of course, was that users tended to use their login password for their mail password, so once the hackers uncovered the mail password they ipso-facto often got a login password. The hacking was noticed and I was told they were networking in from Germany. Given the commonalities: time proximity (85-86), hacker source (Germany) and hacking targets (HEP/nuclear/research community), I wonder now if it was the same group of hackers. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 02:04:59 2015 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 01:04:59 -0700 Subject: disassembling Western Digital microcode (PDP-11, WD16, Pascal Microengine) In-Reply-To: References: <00de01d13ef4$19382fb0$4ba88f10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Dec 25, 2015 at 2:10 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: >> Report back with your findings :->! > > OK. I'm really much more interested in the Pascal Microengine > firmware, but I'm starting with the LSI-11 because it's the same > chipset and better documented, so I can more easily gain practical > experience with its microcode, then move on the the PM. I've put the work-in-progress reverse-engineered microcode source code for both the LSI-11 and the WD9000 Pascal Microengine chipset on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/lsi11uc https://github.com/brouhaha/wd9000uc From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Dec 29 03:03:43 2015 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:03:43 +1100 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes Message-ID: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in the property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good mention but I suspect list members might remember (or reminisce) over the other 9 too or as well. http://www.domain.com.au/news/10-forgotten-wonders-of-1980s-homes-20151217-g lpoof/ ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 06:42:32 2015 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 06:42:32 -0600 Subject: New Commodore 64 is Finally Here--For Real! PC MAG Snip Message-ID: <4nqv4w1h65t6hmrvwdgf1dyo.1451392952783@email.android.com> They sold some units of the c64x. I think there are still some on our local austin craigslist but like most folks said hardware isn't really interesting enough to me to justify the cost. ? I cant remember where or who also produced a small (eepc? Or mini asus laptop running linux but badges with the commodore logo.? The latest relicense grab I'm aware of is only available in Europe but is a phone calling itself the commodore pet?http://commodoresmart.com/ i imagine they're probably trying to work out the legal purchase from commodore usa to use the logo if they care for a US release.? From dugo at xs4all.nl Tue Dec 29 07:42:27 2015 From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:42:27 +0100 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <9c5e65be8458414e90d1fe50b2779bf9@SU8000006102.ad.ing.net> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <5681099A.1040806@jwsss.com> <5681EB7D.3070602@att.net> <9c5e65be8458414e90d1fe50b2779bf9@SU8000006102.ad.ing.net> Message-ID: <2d578fd0d1e55ee50d367f693cb98ba7@xs4all.nl> On December 29 08:35 Brent Hilpert wrote: > In 1985 I was setting up our new email system at CERN, and the email > system had a security flaw that allowed the users' mail access > passwords to be seen. > This in of itself wasn't too big deal as there was little a hacker > could do with it (only get access to mail pickup, and you'd need a > system that talked X.400, which weren't prevalent). > What made it a big security problem, of course, was that users tended > to use their login password for their mail password, so once the > hackers uncovered the mail password they ipso-facto often got a login > password. > The hacking was noticed and I was told they were networking in from > Germany. > > Given the commonalities: time proximity (85-86), hacker source > (Germany) and hacking targets (HEP/nuclear/research community), I > wonder now if it was the same group of hackers. Check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9HVZ8qHHo Fast forward to 5:26 for a '87 sitelist mentioning CERN. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 08:31:29 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:31:29 -0500 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 8:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The C-64 video output +is+ S-Video.. Wow, thanks. Guess I should've just tried it ;) From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 08:49:09 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 08:49:09 -0600 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's not universally true. I had a breadbin C-64 that only output composite video. All the C-64Cs do, but apparently an easy way to check on the older ones is whether the video connector is 5-pin or 8-pin. On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 7:33 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > The C-64 video output +is+ S-Video.. nothing to convert so much, as just > making the correct cable for your application. > > You just need to get the Chroma and Luma signals (and possibly the audio as > well) from the port. That's S-Video.. > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jacob Ritorto > wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, tony duell > > wrote: > > > > > [...] I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). > > > > > > > This discussion bumped my memory a little and I was wanting to do it. > Has > > anyone tried this or does anyone have knowledge of why it should or > > shouldn't work? > > > > -thx > > jake > > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 08:53:15 2015 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:53:15 -0500 Subject: Reinstalling SunOS 4.1.4 without CD drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 27, 2015 10:35 PM, "Maciej W. Rozycki" wrote: > SCSI disks are most often shipped formatted with a pool of spare sectors > available beyond the nominal externally visible capacity, although the > firmware of many allows reformatting with the size of the pool altered, at > the most extreme to zero. [snip] > I hope this clarifies the matters here a bit. Quite a lot. Thank you! From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Dec 29 11:40:48 2015 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:40:48 -0500 Subject: More videos! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5682C5A0.8020104@snarc.net> Get your popcorn ready. Here are the videos from VCF East 9.1 (2014): https://t.co/Q1WXafon7D. A couple of ago we posted the VCF East 6.0 (2009) videos. Lots more are going online soon! From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 11:43:48 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:43:48 -0600 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Geoff, I've heard tell of such things, but never encountered a non-S-video C64 in all my years. And around here, all we ever see are the 'breadbin' type - the C-64C is quite rare. On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > That's not universally true. I had a breadbin C-64 that only output > composite video. All the C-64Cs do, but apparently an easy way to check on > the older ones is whether the video connector is 5-pin or 8-pin. > > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 7:33 PM, drlegendre . > wrote: > > > The C-64 video output +is+ S-Video.. nothing to convert so much, as just > > making the correct cable for your application. > > > > You just need to get the Chroma and Luma signals (and possibly the audio > as > > well) from the port. That's S-Video.. > > > > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jacob Ritorto > > > wrote: > > > > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, tony duell > > > wrote: > > > > > > > [...] I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). > > > > > > > > > > This discussion bumped my memory a little and I was wanting to do it. > > Has > > > anyone tried this or does anyone have knowledge of why it should or > > > shouldn't work? > > > > > > -thx > > > jake > > > > > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 12:10:58 2015 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:10:58 +0100 Subject: M9301-YB Bootstrap/Terminator ROM dumps / listings? In-Reply-To: <20150430203426.1ABD018C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150430203426.1ABD018C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2015-04-30 22:34 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Johnny Billquist bqt at update.uu.se > > > The per-device code are in separate PROMs that are used in both the > > 9301 and 9312. Those are the ones with the device code as constants > in > > the beginning of memory space for the PROM, by the way. > > As I mentioned, the M9301-YA, at least, does not have this code. (See the > listing.) Also, again on the M9301-YA, the various bootstraps, diagnostics, > and console, are scattered through both banks (ditto), so one can't just > replace a PROM or two to chance the supported devices; one would have to > replace the entire set of 4 PROMs. > > > I hope you also are aware that both the M9301 and the M9312 have > > different boot roms for some machines. I know that the 11/70 use > > different roms with other tests than other PDP-11s, and I seem to > > remember that one or two others do as well. (The 11/60 keeps popping > up > > in my brain...) > > I have yet to investigate the M9312's in depth, but I did know there are > quite > a few different versions of the M9301 (which amount to different ROMs: I > know > there are two different etch revisions of the card itself, but I think they > are programming-wise identical). I don't know of any good list of the > variants, but here are the versions I know of (device codes abbreviated to > save typing): > > M9301-YA /04 and /34 OEM version; has basic diagnostics, console > emulator, > boots from various devices (RK, RP, TC, TM, DL, PC, TA, > RX), > supports auto-boot on power on, and also power-fail restart > > M9301-YB /04 and /34 end user version; has basic diagnostics, > console emulator, > boots from various devices (RK, RP, TC, TM, TA, RX, DL, PC, > RJS, RJP, TJU), also power-fail restart > > M9301-YC /70 version; contains basic CPU, cache and memory > diagnostics, > boots from various devices (TM, TC, RK, RP, RK06, RJS, > RJP, TJU, RX) > > M9301-YD All models; contains code to allow a terminal attached to > the > machine to be a terminal on some other line; also has boot > code for RX and DDCMP > > M9301-YE All models; has basic diagnostics, console emulator; boots > from low speed paper tape or DECnet; supports auto-boot on > power on, and also power-fail restart > > M9301-YF All models (auto-start not available on /45, /50); has > basic > diagnostics, console emulator, boots from various devices > (RK, RK06, RP, TC, TM, TA, RX, DL, PC, RJS, RJP, TJU) > supports auto-boot on power on, and also power-fail restart > > M9301-YH /60 and /70 version; contains basic CPU, cache and memory > diagnostics, > boots from various devices (TM, TC, RK, RP, RK06, RJS, > RJP, TJU, RX, PC) > > M9301-YH All models; has basic diagnostics, console emulator; boots > from DECnet, and various devices (RX, TU, DL, DMC), also > power-fail restart > > The -YA is the only one I have examined in detail. > > Noel > I know this is more than half a year ago but I just recently dumped the contents of the M9301-YB if someone is interested or like to archive it somewhere. http://bit.ly/1kqsxwt http://bit.ly/1Pvuzql http://bit.ly/1JHsJyl http://bit.ly/1YQ9OrZ I combined the files into one binary file: http://bit.ly/1MFbVrq and did some initial checking of the code. It is fairly similar to the disassembly that Noel Chiappa has provided earlier, although the different routines are arranged in completely new way. /Mattis From isking at uw.edu Tue Dec 29 12:13:07 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 10:13:07 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: After the success of "That 70s Show", clueless producers decided to try moving forward a decade to "That '80s Show", which was a flop. I have a theory as to why it failed: the '80s were just too pathetic to parody. This is a fun bit - thanks for forwarding to the list! On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 1:03 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in the > property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good > mention > but I suspect list members might remember (or reminisce) over the other 9 > too or as well. > > > > > http://www.domain.com.au/news/10-forgotten-wonders-of-1980s-homes-20151217-g > lpoof/ > > > > > > ++++++++++ > > Kevin Parker > > > > ++++++++++ > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 12:14:16 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:14:16 -0500 Subject: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? References: Message-ID: <651FF48704724C56A43F73D12D265784@310e2> The older 5-pin video connector did not provide the chroma signal. No need for lengthy discussions here; Google's your friend, lots of info on the web, e.g.: https://www.commodoreserver.com/BlogEntryView.asp?EID=F4B967500A894E10BE4A104C65DB541E m ----- Original Message ----- From: "drlegendre ." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Trivial to adapt C64 1902 monitor output to s-video? > @Geoff, > > I've heard tell of such things, but never encountered a non-S-video C64 in > all my years. And around here, all we ever see are the 'breadbin' type - > the C-64C is quite rare. > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 8:49 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans > wrote: > >> That's not universally true. I had a breadbin C-64 that only output >> composite video. All the C-64Cs do, but apparently an easy way to check on >> the older ones is whether the video connector is 5-pin or 8-pin. >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 7:33 PM, drlegendre . >> wrote: >> >> > The C-64 video output +is+ S-Video.. nothing to convert so much, as just >> > making the correct cable for your application. >> > >> > You just need to get the Chroma and Luma signals (and possibly the audio >> as >> > well) from the port. That's S-Video.. >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Jacob Ritorto > > >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2015 at 12:10 PM, tony duell >> > > wrote: >> > > >> > > > [...] I am (mainly) a Commodore enthusiast). >> > > > >> > > >> > > This discussion bumped my memory a little and I was wanting to do it. >> > Has >> > > anyone tried this or does anyone have knowledge of why it should or >> > > shouldn't work? >> > > >> > > -thx >> > > jake >> > > >> > >> From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 13:08:03 2015 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:08:03 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> On 12/29/2015 03:03 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in the > property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good mention But it's one of those new-fangled C64s, not the breadbin variety :( I've wondered occasionally what happened to ghetto blasters - despite finding other audio equipment of the time every once in a while, I don't think I've seen one anywhere in over 25 years. Were they exceptionally fragile or something, and so they all got tossed long ago instead of finding their way into attics and garages like everything else? cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Tue Dec 29 13:13:55 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:13:55 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5682DB72.5090906@jwsss.com> Santa Ana, Ca goodwill store is full of what I think you are after. They also have a pretty well stocked electronics / computer section. Also online sales http://www.shopgoodwill.com/?adcode=ocgoodwill Thanks Jim On 12/29/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 12/29/2015 03:03 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: >> May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in >> the >> property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good >> mention > > But it's one of those new-fangled C64s, not the breadbin variety :( > > I've wondered occasionally what happened to ghetto blasters - despite > finding other audio equipment of the time every once in a while, I > don't think I've seen one anywhere in over 25 years. Were they > exceptionally fragile or something, and so they all got tossed long > ago instead of finding their way into attics and garages like > everything else? > > cheers > > Jules > > From js at cimmeri.com Tue Dec 29 13:23:41 2015 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:23:41 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5682DDBD.5090200@cimmeri.com> On 12/29/2015 2:08 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've wondered occasionally what > happened to ghetto blasters - despite > finding other audio equipment of the > time every once in a while, I don't > think I've seen one anywhere in over > 25 years. Were they exceptionally > fragile or something, and so they all > got tossed long ago instead of finding > their way into attics and garages like > everything else? > > cheers > Jules I still have mine, circa 1979. Amazingly still works -- with no caps replacement yet -- except for tape deck -- rubber bands have dried up. - J. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 29 13:24:34 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:24:34 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002201d1426e$8ce32ff0$a6a98fd0$@classiccmp.org> Jules wrote.... -----Original Message----- I've wondered occasionally what happened to ghetto blasters ----------- They have just gotten facelifts. Here's one I use: http://www.boschtools.com/products/tools/Pages/BoschProductDetail.aspx?pid=P B360S And I must say... an awesome "tool", necessary for any jobsite ;) J From peter at rittwage.com Tue Dec 29 12:49:41 2015 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:49:41 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <8201dd772241a1a56c281fdce345a237.squirrel@rittwage.com> Wrong, because "The Goldbergs" is doing very well. That 80's show sucked because of the actors and writing, like any show. -Pete > After the success of "That 70s Show", clueless producers decided to try > moving forward a decade to "That '80s Show", which was a flop. I have a > theory as to why it failed: the '80s were just too pathetic to parody. > > This is a fun bit - thanks for forwarding to the list! > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 1:03 AM, Kevin Parker > wrote: > >> May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in >> the >> property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good >> mention >> but I suspect list members might remember (or reminisce) over the other >> 9 >> too or as well. >> >> >> >> >> http://www.domain.com.au/news/10-forgotten-wonders-of-1980s-homes-20151217-g >> lpoof/ >> >> >> >> >> >> ++++++++++ >> >> Kevin Parker >> >> >> >> ++++++++++ >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue Dec 29 14:08:28 2015 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:08:28 -0600 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> On Dec 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:51:45 -0600 > From: Jay Jaeger > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems > Message-ID: <5681CB11.4090101 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > On 12/27/2015 10:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: >> >> The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. >> >> Mark >> > > I have some MINC hardware (also a MINC/23 I think) and software, but it > does not look like I have what you are looking for. > > What I do have images of (except for the one marked "(Bad)" that seem > likely MINC related: > > RX01: > > CONTENTS COMMENT > LAB Applications-11 Library V3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YB, NSUM=41906 > LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 1 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA1, NSUM=56190 > LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 2 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA2, NSUM=28900 > LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 3 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA3, NSUM=65055 > > CONTENTS COMMENT > PLOT, Ver June '80 DECUS 11-381 RT-11 Media(KA) (Bad) > MINC BASIC/FORTRAN IV VIR TERM DECUS 11-417 RT-11, NSUM=22281 > PLOTTING PKG For RT-11 FORTRAN DECUS 11-431 RT-11, NSUM=12228 > LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 1 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=15424 > LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 2 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=1369 > LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 3 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=2841 > LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 4 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=21353 > FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 1 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=14187 > FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 2 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=26552 > > > RX02: > > CONTENTS COMMENT > MINC MA DEMO/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J837B-BC, NSUM=04649 > MINC MA DEMO/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H107D-BC, NSUM=58263 > MINC MA SYS/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J836B-BC, NSUM=17510 > MINC MA SYS/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H106D-BC, NSUM=61253 Jay, Wow! It would be great to get copies of those DEC and DECUS floppies! Almost all DECUS software include the sources and a good example of source code is worth many pages of references manuals. Please contact me directly and we can discuss how to transfer them. Several of those titles sound very interesting! The MINC systems are great hardware platforms, but I was very afraid that much of the software had been lost. This is very encouraging! Thanks! Mark On Dec 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems > Message-ID: <20151228152030.26E4518C0B2 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > >> From: Mark Matlock > >> either 11/23 or 11/73 CPUs (limited to 256KB by the MINC Q18 bus) > > Have you thought about upgrading the backplane/bus to 22 bits (shouldn't be > too hard) - or do you want to keep it original? > > Noel Noel, I actually have two MINC boxes, one labelled as a MINC-23 and one labelled as MINC-11. As far as I can tell from the engineering drawings there is no difference in the back plane. I am hoping to wire the MINC-23 to Q22 in the future to be able to run RSX11M+ on it with the 11/73 and a decent amount of memory. As far as I can tell there MINC cards would not have a problem with the Q22 bus and the modification to the BDV11 is pretty easy. The MINC-11 I plan to keep as a RT-11 system but with the 11/23 CPU and 256 KB RAM. Mark On Dec 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 11:27:17 -0800 > From: "Ian S. King" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems > > I started such a project a while back, and grad school intervened. :-) > But with all this interest, I'll see if I can't disinter my MINC and try it > again. I'm pretty sure I have these packages and a lot more, and I really > need to get them imaged of RX02s before the oxide starts falling off. :-) > > I have a MINC-11, but I put an 11/23 processor in it - 18-bit addressing, > though, and I DO want to keep it stock so I'm not going to modify the > backplane for 22-bit addressing, as much as I'd like that extra working > store space! Ian, As we discussed offline, I'll be very interested to see the titles of the RX02s that you have "in the basement". It would be great to get as many of these DEC and DECUS MINC related software packages together in one collection so it doesn't get lost forever. Thanks and Best regards, Mark On Dec 28, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2015 20:35:54 -0800 > From: Glen Slick > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems > > I have an RX02 floppy labeled: > BA-L796C-BC > RT-11/FEP V2.2 INSTL BIN RX2 > (C) 1983 > > I don't know if that would help. I'll have to look and see if I have > already created an image of this disk. If not it might take some time > before I get setup again to create RX02 disk images. > > -Glen Glen, I would very much be interested in a copy of that RX02! That is one subversion higher (V2.2 vs V2.1) than the documentation I found so its probably one of the last releases. Please email me privately if you find the image. Thanks a bunch!! Mark From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 29 14:47:17 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:47:17 -0600 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> References: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <5682F155.3050205@charter.net> On 12/29/2015 2:08 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: > On Dec 29, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:51:45 -0600 >> From: Jay Jaeger >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems >> Message-ID: <5681CB11.4090101 at charter.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> On 12/27/2015 10:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: >>> >>> The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. >>> >>> Mark >>> >> >> I have some MINC hardware (also a MINC/23 I think) and software, but it >> does not look like I have what you are looking for. >> >> What I do have images of (except for the one marked "(Bad)" that seem >> likely MINC related: >> >> RX01: >> >> CONTENTS COMMENT >> LAB Applications-11 Library V3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YB, NSUM=41906 >> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 1 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA1, NSUM=56190 >> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 2 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA2, NSUM=28900 >> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 3 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA3, NSUM=65055 >> >> CONTENTS COMMENT >> PLOT, Ver June '80 DECUS 11-381 RT-11 Media(KA) (Bad) >> MINC BASIC/FORTRAN IV VIR TERM DECUS 11-417 RT-11, NSUM=22281 >> PLOTTING PKG For RT-11 FORTRAN DECUS 11-431 RT-11, NSUM=12228 >> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 1 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=15424 >> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 2 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=1369 >> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 3 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=2841 >> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 4 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=21353 >> FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 1 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=14187 >> FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 2 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=26552 >> >> >> RX02: >> >> CONTENTS COMMENT >> MINC MA DEMO/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J837B-BC, NSUM=04649 >> MINC MA DEMO/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H107D-BC, NSUM=58263 >> MINC MA SYS/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J836B-BC, NSUM=17510 >> MINC MA SYS/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H106D-BC, NSUM=61253 > > Jay, > Wow! It would be great to get copies of those DEC and DECUS floppies! Almost all DECUS software include the sources and a good example of source code is worth many pages of references manuals. Please contact me directly and we can discuss how to transfer them. Several of those titles sound very interesting! > > The MINC systems are great hardware platforms, but I was very afraid that much of the software had been lost. This is very encouraging! > > Thanks! > Mark > > I have had several folks express the desire for them. Over the day or few days (we have a gathering coming up tomorrow, and not sure I will get to it today, so it could be as late as next week), I will load them up on my Google drive in a directory structure analogous to what bitsavers uses, and send out the link. JRJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 29 17:54:07 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Dec 2015, Ian S. King wrote: > After the success of "That 70s Show", clueless producers decided to try > moving forward a decade to "That '80s Show", which was a flop. I have a > theory as to why it failed: the '80s were just too pathetic to parody. The '60s were too much for TV. The '90s were just roo boring. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 29 17:56:48 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:56:48 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> There's just gotta be some way to tie this thread back to on-topicness. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Dec 29 18:24:17 2015 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:24:17 -0500 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> On 12/28/2015 04:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Indeed! I remember seeing this on live TV many years ago. You can find it on youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac The book is really good too: http://www.amazon.com/Cuckoos-Egg-Tracking-Computer-Espionage/dp/1416507787/ From isking at uw.edu Tue Dec 29 18:58:58 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:58:58 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Jay West wrote: > There's just gotta be some way to tie this thread back to on-topicness. > > > But it is intriguing to see the computer as pop-culture artifact within a broader grouping of like artifacts. (You're welcome, Jay.) In my academic work, I use the term 'consumer computer' rather than 'personal computer' because the latter term is so overloaded and controversial. The Commodore was one of the earliest consumer computers, sold in department stores to families rather than in computer stores to cognoscenti. I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones had transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic term!). Nit picked. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 29 19:15:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:15:34 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56833036.20404@sydex.com> On 12/29/2015 04:58 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones > had transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic > term!). Nit picked. -- Ian It was particularly amusing that in the heart of Silicon Valley in the 1980s, Pacific Telephone still had many of its exchanges outfitted with crossbar switches--with your shiny new touch-tone telephone, you could hear the clicks in the background audio as the gear converted the DTMF to pulses... --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 29 19:58:18 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:58:18 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56833A3A.5050207@sbcglobal.net> On 12/29/2015 06:56 PM, Jay West wrote: > There's just gotta be some way to tie this thread back to on-topicness. > Nah, too far gone. Time to stick a fork in it... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 29 19:59:32 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:59:32 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56833A84.6010901@sbcglobal.net> On 12/29/2015 07:58 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> There's just gotta be some way to tie this thread back to on-topicness. >> >> >> > But it is intriguing to see the computer as pop-culture artifact within a > broader grouping of like artifacts. (You're welcome, Jay.) In my academic > work, I use the term 'consumer computer' rather than 'personal computer' > because the latter term is so overloaded and controversial. The Commodore > was one of the earliest consumer computers, sold in department stores to > families rather than in computer stores to cognoscenti. > > I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones had > transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic term!). > Nit picked. -- Ian > (how do you display a thumbs-up sign in ASCII?) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 29 20:05:55 2015 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:05:55 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56833A84.6010901@sbcglobal.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833A84.6010901@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000601d142a6$9e8d74d0$dba85e70$@classiccmp.org> Dave wrote... ------- (how do you display a thumbs-up sign in ASCII?) ------- In this case: IanSKing++; From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 29 20:13:24 2015 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:13:24 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <000601d142a6$9e8d74d0$dba85e70$@classiccmp.org> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833A84.6010901@sbcglobal.net> <000601d142a6$9e8d74d0$dba85e70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56833DC4.50008@sbcglobal.net> On 12/29/2015 09:05 PM, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote... > ------- > (how do you display a thumbs-up sign in ASCII?) > ------- > > In this case: IanSKing++; > > :-D -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination." "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back." - from some guy on the internet. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Dec 29 20:41:10 2015 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:41:10 -0600 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: <5682F155.3050205@charter.net> References: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> <5682F155.3050205@charter.net> Message-ID: <56834446.4090406@charter.net> On 12/29/2015 2:47 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > I have had several folks express the desire for them. Over the day or > few days (we have a gathering coming up tomorrow, and not sure I will > get to it today, so it could be as late as next week), I will load them > up on my Google drive in a directory structure analogous to what > bitsavers uses, and send out the link. > > JRJ > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing The structure is similar to bitsavers, so look in: bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages There are two folders, rx01 and rx02 with .img files. The image files INCLUDE TRACK 0, so depending on how you plan to use them, you may need to trim off the first track first. JRJ From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Dec 29 21:44:09 2015 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:44:09 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes Message-ID: <1508ec.49a9a20b.43b4ad09@aol.com> Interesting just brought the old magnavox ghetto blaster I had in the computer room at computer exchange inc... put 4 cells and a jumper to start it in half voltage for a while.... it lives! went to all 8 batteries... it peels plaster off the walls! but wait i go to the oldies station and .. . Crowded House- Don't Dream Its Over Pat Benatar - Love is a Battlefield 2 of the songs I would crank LOUD! Hey had slick raised tiles... things sounded real loud in there! But.... damn these are .... oldies now I remember when that oldies station would just mainly play 60's stuff.... Here is someone else's write up on this... for tech details.. this thing had set in relatives storage shed for probably 15 years or maybe 22 ..... it had need 23 years since I saw it last....and storage sheds are damn hot here in az.. it looks good... it plays good! it plays LOUD good to have it back! In a message dated 12/29/2015 12:23:38 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, js at cimmeri.com writes: On 12/29/2015 2:08 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've wondered occasionally what > happened to ghetto blasters - despite > finding other audio equipment of the > time every once in a while, I don't > think I've seen one anywhere in over > 25 years. Were they exceptionally > fragile or something, and so they all > got tossed long ago instead of finding > their way into attics and garages like > everything else? > > cheers > Jules I still have mine, circa 1979. Amazingly still works -- with no caps replacement yet -- except for tape deck -- rubber bands have dried up. - J. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 21:49:01 2015 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:49:01 -0800 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00bb01d142b5$056c6a40$10453ec0$@gmail.com> Thanks for the link! I spent a good hour - as is most always the case with Nova programs. Well told story and lots of vintage computers and telco gear in their natural environment! We should start a contest to name them all. Many are easy (for us that is). Here is a more obscure one that picked my HP test equipment collector's interest. The "logic analyzer" at 16:47 is actually an old HP 1640A serial data analyzer (the first one they made? from 1979, $5800, predates the later 495x), with the awesome maximum capture speed of 19200 bauds and gigantic buffer depth of 2048 characters. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ray Arachelian Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2015 4:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The KGB, the Computer, and Me On 12/28/2015 04:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Indeed! I remember seeing this on live TV many years ago. You can find it on youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac The book is really good too: http://www.amazon.com/Cuckoos-Egg-Tracking-Computer-Espionage/dp/1416507787/ From useddec at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 21:54:15 2015 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:54:15 -0600 Subject: 120V, 50HZ Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I know where there are 3 or 4 unused PDP-8As that are 120/50. I ask about the configuration and am waiting for him to get back to me, but they seem to be 12 slot core boxes. Amazing the new 50 or so year stuff still out there. Paul From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Dec 29 22:14:28 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:14:28 -0600 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <56835A24.6040504@pico-systems.com> On 12/29/2015 06:24 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 12/28/2015 04:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. > Indeed! > > I remember seeing this on live TV many years ago. You can find it on > youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac > > The book is really good too: > http://www.amazon.com/Cuckoos-Egg-Tracking-Computer-Espionage/dp/1416507787/ > > > The book is totally amazing! I've rarely read anything by a scientist that is quite so well-written! Of course, I was interested in the topic, but Cliff Stoll writes very well. it reads like a thriller. Jon From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 23:30:21 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 00:30:21 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56833036.20404@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 29 December 2015 at 20:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It was particularly amusing that in the heart of Silicon Valley in the > 1980s, Pacific Telephone still had many of its exchanges outfitted with > crossbar switches--with your shiny new touch-tone telephone, you could hear > the clicks in the background audio as the gear converted the DTMF to > pulses... > Those pulses depend on what kind of crossbar you were homing on, and where you were calling. On a Number 5 Crossbar, your DTMF was never converted to dial pulse for the switch itself. The Touch-Tone Register would connect to a digit translator that inputs the 2-of-5 binary code directly into the relays of the Originating Register (which can still receive dial pulse). On Number 1 Crossbar and Panel however your DTMF would be converted to 20 pulse per second dial pulsing. Only in Step-by-Step is your DTMF converted down to "normal" 10 pulse per second dial pulsing; though it should be noted that in step it either gets converted by a "dumb" Touch-Tone Reciever Converter (DTMF goes in, dial pulse goes out) in a direct control step, in a common control step (yes that was a thing) the DTMF actually ends up getting converted in the same way as on #5XB with the common control elements dial pulsing. However it should be noted: Crossbar switches make noise when connecting through the switch fabric; and depending on trunking and the kind of switch you're calling you might hear dial pulsing, panel call indicator pulsing, or revertive pulsing. RP would be sent on a direct connection between a crossbar to a Number 1 Crossbar or Panel switch (and to Number 5 Crossbar occasionally). PCI is something you'd *never* hear in the 80s, since the only tandems that required PCI (namely Panel Sender Tandem) were gone by the 70s, and the tandems that replaced them (Crossbar Tandem) while it can still "speak" PCI would be more likely to use MF tones; also end offices that would use PCI, namely manual offices, were also dead and gone by the 80s. Dial pulsing however... well that goes to step offices, and if you have a step tandem anywhere in the chain (you could have a #5XB to #5XB call which you'd think would be MF'd; but if you have a step tandem you get dial pulse). Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 00:25:29 2015 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 01:25:29 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:30 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > > On a Number 5 Crossbar, your DTMF was never converted to dial pulse > for the switch itself. The Touch-Tone Register would connect to a > digit translator that inputs the 2-of-5 binary code directly into the > relays of the Originating Register (which can still receive dial > pulse). On Number 1 Crossbar and Panel however your DTMF would be > converted to 20 pulse per second dial pulsing. Only in Step-by-Step is > your DTMF converted down to "normal" 10 pulse per second dial pulsing; > though it should be noted that in step it either gets converted by a > "dumb" Touch-Tone Reciever Converter (DTMF goes in, dial pulse goes > out) in a direct control step, in a common control step (yes that was > a thing) the DTMF actually ends up getting converted in the same way > as on #5XB with the common control elements dial pulsing. > > > However it should be noted: Crossbar switches make noise when > connecting through the switch fabric; and depending on trunking and > the kind of switch you're calling you might hear dial pulsing, panel > call indicator pulsing, or revertive pulsing. RP would be sent on a > direct connection between a crossbar to a Number 1 Crossbar or Panel > switch (and to Number 5 Crossbar occasionally). PCI is something you'd > *never* hear in the 80s, since the only tandems that required PCI > (namely Panel Sender Tandem) were gone by the 70s, and the tandems > that replaced them (Crossbar Tandem) while it can still "speak" PCI > would be more likely to use MF tones; also end offices that would use > PCI, namely manual offices, were also dead and gone by the 80s. Dial > pulsing however... well that goes to step offices, and if you have a > step tandem anywhere in the chain (you could have a #5XB to #5XB call > which you'd think would be MF'd; but if you have a step tandem you get > dial pulse). > okay, this is _really interesting_. Where can I read more? From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 00:32:36 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 00:32:36 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:25 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: >> [lots of cool phone switching stuff] > > okay, this is _really interesting_. Where can I read more? To start, a document archive (the "Bitsavers of telephony") http://telephonecollectors.info and three mailing lists: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/singingwires/info https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/centraloffice/info http://lists.ckts.info/mailman/listinfo/voip From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 00:34:30 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:34:30 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> On 12/29/2015 09:30 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Those pulses depend on what kind of crossbar you were homing on, and > where you were calling. I'm not entirely sure, but I think the local stuff was type 4XB. At any rate, I could punch in a DTMF number and listen for the dialing sequence to be complete before the first ring could be heard. Then there was the matter the GTE-AT&T interconnect... --Chuck From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 01:04:24 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 02:04:24 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 30 December 2015 at 01:25, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > okay, this is _really interesting_. Where can I read more? Another list member provided a good document archive, there's also Sam Etler's site which has other documents: I'll point you specifically towards Western Electric's Fundamentals of Telephone Communications Systems: which is all about the switching equipment. Other documents can be found spread across the net. And for your audio pleasure, I point you to Evan Doorbell's and Mark Bernay's recordings. Specifically: and the location of the new files The narrator on the tapes --- Evan Doorbell --- is funny, informative, and knowledgeable. It helps that he used to be a phreak back in the 70s and 80s too. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Dec 30 01:13:39 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 07:13:39 +0000 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56838423.8000609@btinternet.com> On 30/12/2015 05:30, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 29 December 2015 at 20:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> It was particularly amusing that in the heart of Silicon Valley in the >> 1980s, Pacific Telephone still had many of its exchanges outfitted with >> crossbar switches--with your shiny new touch-tone telephone, you could hear >> the clicks in the background audio as the gear converted the DTMF to >> pulses... >> > Those pulses depend on what kind of crossbar you were homing on, and > where you were calling. > > On a Number 5 Crossbar, your DTMF was never converted to dial pulse > for the switch itself. The Touch-Tone Register would connect to a > digit translator that inputs the 2-of-5 binary code directly into the > relays of the Originating Register (which can still receive dial > pulse). On Number 1 Crossbar and Panel however your DTMF would be > converted to 20 pulse per second dial pulsing. Only in Step-by-Step is > your DTMF converted down to "normal" 10 pulse per second dial pulsing; > though it should be noted that in step it either gets converted by a > "dumb" Touch-Tone Reciever Converter (DTMF goes in, dial pulse goes > out) in a direct control step, in a common control step (yes that was > a thing) the DTMF actually ends up getting converted in the same way > as on #5XB with the common control elements dial pulsing. > > > However it should be noted: Crossbar switches make noise when > connecting through the switch fabric; and depending on trunking and > the kind of switch you're calling you might hear dial pulsing, panel > call indicator pulsing, or revertive pulsing. RP would be sent on a > direct connection between a crossbar to a Number 1 Crossbar or Panel > switch (and to Number 5 Crossbar occasionally). PCI is something you'd > *never* hear in the 80s, since the only tandems that required PCI > (namely Panel Sender Tandem) were gone by the 70s, and the tandems > that replaced them (Crossbar Tandem) while it can still "speak" PCI > would be more likely to use MF tones; also end offices that would use > PCI, namely manual offices, were also dead and gone by the 80s. Dial > pulsing however... well that goes to step offices, and if you have a > step tandem anywhere in the chain (you could have a #5XB to #5XB call > which you'd think would be MF'd; but if you have a step tandem you get > dial pulse). > > > Cheers, > Christian In the late 1960's I was what was then called a student apprentice. This ment you did two weeks at work and one week at college. I worked at at local cable manufacturing company and my desk was in the high voltage lab. The building had been part of the Great Western Railways wartime installation. It was a concrete blockhouse. Walls three feet thick and blast shutters over the windows. It had the advantage of being warm in winter and cool in summer. We had a high votage test lab (up to 500,000 volts) , RF lab and the internal telephone exchange. You could not dial out. There was a manual switch board with its own operators for that. (dial 0 and ask) The internal exchange was a standard GPO Strowger type exchange. It would have been 25-30 years old at that time but built under wartime conditions. One monday I arrived back at work from college to find a box on my desk containing many reels of PVC hook up wire and a set of tatty wiring diagrams. There was a note from my boss saying "insulation in phone exchange cracking up - please rewire the lot" First job stick the blueprints on the glass partition between my lab and the exchange with a light behind them. Then to the exchange, take all the covers off the relay banks and sitting on my tall lab stool watch what happened. Boss goes past and nods his approval and I went from there. Took a couple of months but it worked when I'd none. Rod We were right on the London main line. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 01:24:18 2015 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 02:24:18 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 30 December 2015 at 01:34, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm not entirely sure, but I think the local stuff was type 4XB. At any > rate, I could punch in a DTMF number and listen for the dialing sequence to > be complete before the first ring could be heard. > #4/#4A crossbar is *not* a local switch. It's a four-wire toll switch. The only local crossbars were #1 (the replacement for panel), #5 (the one that really embraced the common control ideas), and #3 (about as close to a CDO as you can get with crossbar). Sounds like you had a #1 crossbar then, if only because #5 wouldn't dial pulse unless you had to deal with a step tandem (or were calling into a step office). The direct successor to the 4/4AXB was the 4ESS/4AESS. (Meanwhile the successor to the local crossbar offices was 1ESS/1AESS; save for the weird 3XB which was replaced by the small 3ESS.) And of course both local and toll ESS have been replaced by the 5ESS. Fun Facts about toll crossbars: There were three crossbars for toll switching. The Crossbar Tandem (based on #1XB technology), the Number 4/4A Crossbar (four wire dedicated toll switch), and the Number 5 Crossbar. One can setup a 5XB to do double duty as a tanem switch; in fact in the 1975 and 1977 Traffic Routing Guides you can see several places where this is the case (for example Moncton, New Brunswick). > Then there was the matter the GTE-AT&T interconnect... > Interconnects between different networks: About as fun as IBM versus DEC. Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From will.senn at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 23:23:17 2015 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 23:23:17 -0600 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56835A24.6040504@pico-systems.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> <56835A24.6040504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56836A45.3050704@gmail.com> On 12/29/15 10:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/29/2015 06:24 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> On 12/28/2015 04:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >>> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. >> Indeed! >> >> I remember seeing this on live TV many years ago. You can find it on >> youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac >> >> The book is really good too: >> http://www.amazon.com/Cuckoos-Egg-Tracking-Computer-Espionage/dp/1416507787/ >> >> >> > The book is totally amazing! I've rarely read anything by a scientist > that is quite so well-written! > Of course, I was interested in the topic, but Cliff Stoll writes very > well. it reads like a thriller. > > Jon Just finished reading the book this morning. In addition to being a thrilling read, it's packed with 80's tech cultural references and quite a bit of historical vignettes. It's amazing how much has changed in the security realm and yet so little. Back then the same "make the passwords too hard and folks put 'em on stickies" vs "make them easy and they can be guessed" arguments we hear today. The video tied things together for me quite a bit on the what did things look like back then and was fun. The logic analyzer is something I've never seen in operation (I'm obviously not an EE), I looked on Ebay and the B model is available for less than $300 bucks, no telling if it works. Will From ats at offog.org Wed Dec 30 01:49:26 2015 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 07:49:26 +0000 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: (Jacob Ritorto's message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2015 01:25:29 -0500") References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> Message-ID: Jacob Ritorto writes: > okay, this is _really interesting_. Where can I read more? In addition to the links already posted (Evan Doorbell's recordings are particularly good), can I also recommend Phil Lapsley's book "Exploding the Phone": http://explodingthephone.com/ The "Documents" archive on their has scans of most of his source material. -- Adam Sampson From ats at offog.org Wed Dec 30 01:53:29 2015 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 07:53:29 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56835A24.6040504@pico-systems.com> (Jon Elson's message of "Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:14:28 -0600") References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> <56835A24.6040504@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Jon Elson writes: > Of course, I was interested in the topic, but Cliff Stoll writes very > well. it reads like a thriller. There's also the German film "23", which tells the same story from the hackers' end (although with less accuracy in terms of the computers used). I remember seeing it with friends in the cinema when it first came out, and being amazed that anybody would make a film about such a (relatively!) obscure bit of computing history... -- Adam Sampson From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Dec 30 06:46:50 2015 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 23:46:50 +1100 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On 30 Dec 2015, at 11:58, Ian S. King wrote: > But it is intriguing to see the computer as pop-culture artifact within a > broader grouping of like artifacts. (You're welcome, Jay.) In my academic > work, I use the term 'consumer computer' rather than 'personal computer' > because the latter term is so overloaded and controversial. Great terminology. Can I have permission to use it too :-) > I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones had > transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic term!). > Nit picked. ? Ian Not in Australia where the article was written. Government regulations meant that phones still had dials and modems were both hard to get and very expensive. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 07:20:17 2015 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:20:17 +0000 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: > > I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones had > transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic term!). Not as archaic as 'to ring off' (which dates back to magneto-ringing telephones where you gave the magneto a little crank at the end of the call to indicate to the operator to disconnect you) or 'to hang up' which refers to the wall and candlestick telephones with a receiver hanging on the hookswtich on the side. Both those terms are in common use in the UK. -tony From tsg at bonedaddy.net Wed Dec 30 08:25:41 2015 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:25:41 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <5682DA13.5030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20151230142540.GI17110@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Jules Richardson [151229 14:05]: > On 12/29/2015 03:03 AM, Kevin Parker wrote: > > May be of interest to some list members - appeared, of all places, in the > > property section of a local newspaper - the Commodore 64 gets a good mention > > But it's one of those new-fangled C64s, not the breadbin variety :( > > I've wondered occasionally what happened to ghetto blasters - despite > finding other audio equipment of the time every once in a while, I don't > think I've seen one anywhere in over 25 years. Were they exceptionally > fragile or something, and so they all got tossed long ago instead of > finding their way into attics and garages like everything else? > > cheers > > Jules Well, I used mine as a target. Todd From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 30 08:41:57 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 15:41:57 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> OK, I just got my Logic Analysator and traced the communication on my PC while forcing it to do PIO instead of DMA. I then changed my AVR code to do the exact same commands and nearly the same timings and... nothing changed - the drive still responds with error code 0x04 after the read sector 0x20 command is issued. On the PC: I noticed a time frame of 115,230ns between the 0x20 Command and the first alternate status register read. during that time, INTRQ goes high so the drive "is done" and wants the host to interact with it again. IORDY is the whole time high from the host. The status read is 0x58 on the PC. On the AVR: IORDY is the whole time low (it is not connected), INTRQ stays low the whole time, and the first status read back is 0xD0 for a long time and then it goes to 0xD1 and then 0x59. Things I plan to try next: - power down the drive on the pc, power it up and then try to access sector 1 again and see what happens. Maybe some magic "initialization" is done on bootup what I don't do. - make IORDY high on my AVR too From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 30 10:17:02 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:02 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> OK, detatching the power cord of the disk from my PC while running FreeBSD and reattaching it also brings up error code 4 on the next access. This does not happen with other drives. So it must be some sort of initialisation the OS or BIOS does which readies up the drive. Oliver Lehmann wrote: > OK, I just got my Logic Analysator and traced the > communication on my PC while forcing it to do PIO > instead of DMA. > I then changed my AVR code to do the exact same > commands and nearly the same timings and... nothing > changed - the drive still responds with error code > 0x04 after the read sector 0x20 command is issued. > > On the PC: > I noticed a time frame of 115,230ns between the > 0x20 Command and the first alternate status register > read. during that time, INTRQ goes high so the drive > "is done" and wants the host to interact with it > again. IORDY is the whole time high from the host. > The status read is 0x58 on the PC. > > On the AVR: > IORDY is the whole time low (it is not connected), > INTRQ stays low the whole time, and the first status > read back is 0xD0 for a long time and then it goes to > 0xD1 and then 0x59. > > Things I plan to try next: > > - power down the drive on the pc, power it up and then > try to access sector 1 again and see what happens. > Maybe some magic "initialization" is done on bootup > what I don't do. > - make IORDY high on my AVR too From isking at uw.edu Wed Dec 30 10:41:53 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 08:41:53 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 4:46 AM, Huw Davies < huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au> wrote: > > > On 30 Dec 2015, at 11:58, Ian S. King wrote: > > > But it is intriguing to see the computer as pop-culture artifact within a > > broader grouping of like artifacts. (You're welcome, Jay.) In my > academic > > work, I use the term 'consumer computer' rather than 'personal computer' > > because the latter term is so overloaded and controversial. > > Great terminology. Can I have permission to use it too :-) > Citation is the sincerest compliment. :-) > > > I do have to say, though, that in the '80s many if not most phones had > > transitioned to touch-tone 'dialing' (what a delightfully archaic term!). > > Nit picked. ? Ian > > Not in Australia where the article was written. Government regulations > meant that phones still had dials and modems were both hard to get and very > expensive. > > > Ah, good point. And to hie back to an earlier part of the thread, when I worked for Pacific Telecom in the early 1990s, there was still a crossbar exchange in Forks, Washington. Also in the PTI world was a very modern ESS (the model escapes me) that replaced an old system that could not keep up with regional growth. As a result, the rather small town of Kalispell, Montana enjoyed high-speed data services superior to anything I could get in the Portland/Vancouver area! -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 30 11:13:45 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:13:45 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4BEB86CA-D81A-4651-8685-89156DB4171E@comcast.net> > On Dec 30, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > >> ... >> Great terminology. Can I have permission to use it too :-) >> > > Citation is the sincerest compliment. :-) Then again, as Robert A. Heinlein put it, "The sincerest form of praise starts with the phrase 'Pay to the order of...'." paul From isking at uw.edu Wed Dec 30 11:22:34 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:22:34 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <4BEB86CA-D81A-4651-8685-89156DB4171E@comcast.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <4BEB86CA-D81A-4651-8685-89156DB4171E@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bob wasn't an academic - but that's not to say he wasn't right. On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Dec 30, 2015, at 11:41 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > >> ... > >> Great terminology. Can I have permission to use it too :-) > >> > > > > Citation is the sincerest compliment. :-) > > Then again, as Robert A. Heinlein put it, "The sincerest form of praise > starts with the phrase 'Pay to the order of...'." > > paul > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 12:12:32 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:12:32 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> On 12/29/2015 11:24 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > The direct successor to the 4/4AXB was the 4ESS/4AESS. (Meanwhile the > successor to the local crossbar offices was 1ESS/1AESS; save for the > weird 3XB which was replaced by the small 3ESS.) And of course both > local and toll ESS have been replaced by the 5ESS. I'll defer to the experts; all this clicky-clicky stuff with "we don't offer that feature" are very old memories. Evolution of the telco networks has been interesting. I remember that my grandmother had a 2-digit phone number and the linemen who worked for the local telephone outfit also repaired radios on the side (She had a big Zenith with the auto-station seeking gizmo in her parlor). At the same time, our family's phone number sticks in my mind: Sheffield 2118-W (we were on a party line). When we purchased our current home (with some acreage), there was an easement through the land documented from 1927--you still can find buried glass insulators and bits of iron hardware in the soil here and there. It was replaced at some point by a buried pair of coaxial lines (the test points still exist). When I was doing some excavation, I called in the line-mapping service who verified that the stuff was dead. There are still warning signs with a "Call ENTerpirse xxxx and ask for Operator 7 before digging" legend--some of the signs have been overgrown with the wood of trees that they were attached to. Great fun. No one seems to know when the line was abandoned. Now, the buried copper that serviced our telephones on this road is being replaced by fiber hung on the existing electrical utility poles because the buried cable is apparently sliding down the hill and would be very expensive to replace with like copper. I have a bunch of boxes sitting on a concrete pad on my property that connects the existing buried local copper with the fiber--I got to see what an 1800-pair copper cable looks like. I read an article recently that in the US, only 8 percent of the population relies on POTS exclusively. Currently, I'm waiting for more upstream capacity before I can get 20Mbps DSL--right now, I'm existing on 1.5Mbps, but the local telco did send me a VDSL2 modem free of charge. When that happens, I'm dropping POTS service as it's just not worth the monthly fees and taxes. Dry loop after that. All of this has me wondering how long it's going to be before POTS completely disappears from the infrastructure. I've been experimenting with one of the Obihai VoIP boxes and have been pleasantly surprised at the quality. I haven't tried yet to see if the 554 rotary dial wall phones in my garage and shop will still work. They were installed in 1980--so that ties this in with the subject material. I will say this--that the personal service that I received in the 1980s and early 90s was amazing. Nothing like what it is now, which can involve waiting on hold for an hour before talking with a remote voice a thousand miles away who has no clue as to what's going on. Life in the boonies 12 wire miles from the CO... --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Dec 30 12:28:30 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:28:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201512301828.NAA27006@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > All of this has me wondering how long it's going to be before POTS > completely disappears from the infrastructure. Completely? I expect that to be a fairly long time - decades, at least. > I've been experimenting with one of the Obihai VoIP boxes and have > been pleasantly surprised at the quality. Most of my phone service is VoI (everything but my cell). My opinion: the major upsides are cost and flexibility; the major downsides are (a) the quality and security implications of using the open Internet and (b) additional points of failure, many of which usually don't have anything like three nines of reliability. In my case the cost and flexibility benefits are enhanced because I am the primary geek behind the system my phones connect to - I work for that provider. But even if I had to set up a tiny little PBX and pay normal uplink rates it'd still be cheaper and more flexible than POTS. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 30 12:39:46 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:39:46 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> On 12/30/15 10:12 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I read an article recently that in the US, only 8 percent of the > population relies on POTS exclusively. Currently, I'm waiting for > more upstream capacity before I can get 20Mbps DSL--right now, I'm > existing on 1.5Mbps, but the local telco did send me a VDSL2 modem > free of charge. When that happens, I'm dropping POTS service as it's > just not worth the monthly fees and taxes. Dry loop after that. > > All of this has me wondering how long it's going to be before POTS > completely disappears from the infrastructure. I've been > experimenting with one of the Obihai VoIP boxes and have been > pleasantly surprised at the quality. I haven't tried yet to see if > the 554 rotary dial wall phones in my garage and shop will still > work. They were installed in 1980--so that ties this in with the > subject material. > We just dropped our POTS service last month. Our phone now is an OOMA VoIP Office system to get the features we wanted/needed. I haven't tried any rotary dial phones on it since I don't have any. Where I'm at, I can't get DSL. Right now I'm dependent upon a dedicated microwave link to my iSP. I'm getting between 20-35Mb/s symmetric (used to be 10Mb/s but it looks like they upgraded the link recently). I'm paying $$$'s but since I work from home I need the bandwidth (I'm currently using about 800GB/mo). I had to put in a point-to-point WiFi link to get internet to the house from my shop (where the microwave dish is). TTFN - Guy From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:45:00 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 19:45:00 +0100 Subject: Available: various PSION organizers, parts, and documentation from the mid-80s In-Reply-To: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <611848568.1674789.1450757010994.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 22 December 2015 at 05:03, steven stengel wrote: > I have boxes full of like-new PSION II organizers that I recently received from a US distributed. > > These aren't rare or valuable, but they are new in the box and seemingly never used. > > There are different models, with both 2 and 4 line displays, and different amounts of memory. > > > I also have memory modules, cables, and development documentation. > > There's also a PSION module duplicactor. > > > If any of this interests anyone, let me know. Wow! Do you have any LZ64 or plain ol' LZ models? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:46:50 2015 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 19:46:50 +0100 Subject: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! ! In-Reply-To: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> References: <5677F4BC.40500@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 December 2015 at 13:46, Mike wrote: > Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and > coded it into a text RPG in basic? Blimey, yes, I have -- but in about 1983! Even then, given my very meagre programming ability, I found it a dull project. The simplistic way of doing it was a lot of GOTOs -- which is basically what the book is -- and the proper way, with a database of text and jumps, was tedious. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 30 13:01:58 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:01:58 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> I checked now with MS-DOS and issuing a simple "DIR D:\" command with a power cycled disk: Command: C4h (Read Multiple) -> 51h, 51h -> 04h Command: 10h (Obsolete???) -> 50h, 50h -> 04h Command: 91h (Initialize Drive Parameters) -> d0h, d0h, d0h, .... 50h Command: C6h (Set Multiple Mode) -> 50h Command: C4h (Read Multiple) -> 58h The first C4h Command returns the same error, but after this it seems like the drive is "initialized" and then the 2nd C4 command afterwards works! Great. I guess C6h is only needed because read multiple is used, so I probably have to do only the 10h and 91h stuff... just need to find out more about it. Does anyone know what command 10h is? The documentation I have only states "obsolete". Oliver Lehmann wrote: > OK, > > detatching the power cord of the disk from my PC while > running FreeBSD and reattaching it also brings up error > code 4 on the next access. This does not happen with > other drives. So it must be some sort of initialisation > the OS or BIOS does which readies up the drive. > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> OK, I just got my Logic Analysator and traced the >> communication on my PC while forcing it to do PIO >> instead of DMA. >> I then changed my AVR code to do the exact same >> commands and nearly the same timings and... nothing >> changed - the drive still responds with error code >> 0x04 after the read sector 0x20 command is issued. >> >> On the PC: >> I noticed a time frame of 115,230ns between the >> 0x20 Command and the first alternate status register >> read. during that time, INTRQ goes high so the drive >> "is done" and wants the host to interact with it >> again. IORDY is the whole time high from the host. >> The status read is 0x58 on the PC. >> >> On the AVR: >> IORDY is the whole time low (it is not connected), >> INTRQ stays low the whole time, and the first status >> read back is 0xD0 for a long time and then it goes to >> 0xD1 and then 0x59. >> >> Things I plan to try next: >> >> - power down the drive on the pc, power it up and then >> try to access sector 1 again and see what happens. >> Maybe some magic "initialization" is done on bootup >> what I don't do. >> - make IORDY high on my AVR too From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 13:20:49 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 15:20:49 -0400 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56842E91.5090208@gmail.com> On 2015-12-30 3:01 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I checked now with MS-DOS and issuing a simple "DIR D:\" command with > a power cycled disk: > > Command: C4h (Read Multiple) > -> 51h, 51h -> 04h > > Command: 10h (Obsolete???) > -> 50h, 50h -> 04h > > Command: 91h (Initialize Drive Parameters) > -> d0h, d0h, d0h, .... 50h > > Command: C6h (Set Multiple Mode) > -> 50h > > Command: C4h (Read Multiple) > -> 58h > > The first C4h Command returns the same error, but > after this it seems like the drive is "initialized" > and then the 2nd C4 command afterwards works! Great. > I guess C6h is only needed because read multiple is > used, so I probably have to do only the 10h and > 91h stuff... just need to find out more about it. > > Does anyone know what command 10h is? The documentation > I have only states "obsolete". > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> OK, >> >> detatching the power cord of the disk from my PC while >> running FreeBSD and reattaching it also brings up error >> code 4 on the next access. This does not happen with >> other drives. So it must be some sort of initialisation >> the OS or BIOS does which readies up the drive. >> >> >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> OK, I just got my Logic Analysator and traced the >>> communication on my PC while forcing it to do PIO >>> instead of DMA. >>> I then changed my AVR code to do the exact same >>> commands and nearly the same timings and... nothing >>> changed - the drive still responds with error code >>> 0x04 after the read sector 0x20 command is issued. >>> >>> On the PC: >>> I noticed a time frame of 115,230ns between the >>> 0x20 Command and the first alternate status register >>> read. during that time, INTRQ goes high so the drive >>> "is done" and wants the host to interact with it >>> again. IORDY is the whole time high from the host. >>> The status read is 0x58 on the PC. >>> >>> On the AVR: >>> IORDY is the whole time low (it is not connected), >>> INTRQ stays low the whole time, and the first status >>> read back is 0xD0 for a long time and then it goes to >>> 0xD1 and then 0x59. >>> >>> Things I plan to try next: >>> >>> - power down the drive on the pc, power it up and then >>> try to access sector 1 again and see what happens. >>> Maybe some magic "initialization" is done on bootup >>> what I don't do. >>> - make IORDY high on my AVR too > > According to my book "The SCSI Bus and IDE Interfaces Protocols, Applications and Programming" 0x10 to 0x1F are "Recalibrate" "All opcodes between 10h and 1Fh are interpreted as a RECALIBRATE command, whereupon the disk drive seeks track 0. If it is not found, TK0NF will be set in the error register. RECALIBRATE is often used when trying to recover from an error situation. For example when a sector cannot be found, a RECALIBRATE should be tried. If this works, a sector access can be tried again. Otherwise, it is a fatal disk error." Paul. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Dec 30 13:24:19 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:24:19 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> On 12/30/2015 12:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > All of this has me wondering how long it's going to be before POTS > completely disappears from the infrastructure. I've been > experimenting with one of the Obihai VoIP boxes and have been > pleasantly surprised at the quality. I haven't tried yet to see if > the 554 rotary dial wall phones in my garage and shop will still > work. They were installed in 1980--so that ties this in with the > subject material. I am not worthy of this conversation, but I will put in what little I can. We were spoiled in South Dakota, as somehow (and I am sure someone knows and will enlighten us/me) the rural telcos (LECs?) tapped into lots of funds from somewhere to drop fiber to all of the rural homes. 50Mb was the slowest speed, as I recall, for data. The catch was that you had to buy a telephone service with your Internet, probably for some legal/regulatory reason. But, it was cheap, and we bought just the basics, and 50Mb was more than one could expect when you are 8 miles from the nearest town and on a large acreage. So, in markets where this type of service is offered, I think telcos will thrive. When we moved to Iowa, we found a choice large acreage just minutes from the edge of town, but POTS service was so expensive compared to our SD options. We went with office grade cellular Internet (unlimited 4G) and I bought one of those Internet to phone dongles for pennies online. In a small twist, though, I disconnected our house telephone wiring from the telco and simply plugged the dongle into our house telephone wiring. Now, we have all the phones in the house connected to phone service through our cellular connection. I am sure it is not that original, but my touch phones don't know the difference (like you, I have not tried my rotary with the extra long cord), and it is $10.00/year versus $35.00/month for POTS. Jim > -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 13:26:01 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 11:26:01 -0800 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <56842FC9.2050203@sydex.com> On 12/30/2015 11:01 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Does anyone know what command 10h is? The documentation I have only > states "obsolete". Command 1x is "recalibrate". The "x" used to be the stepping rate, but is ignored on most later drives. --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 13:49:21 2015 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 14:49:21 -0500 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <0BB4BEFC519F48FDA46C4EA31D75E70A@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 2:24 PM > I am sure it is not that original, but my touch phones don't know the > difference (like you, I have not tried my rotary with the extra long > cord), and it is $10.00/year versus $35.00/month for POTS. > > Jim Interesting; what exactly are you paying that $10.00 for? m From brain at jbrain.com Wed Dec 30 13:55:51 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:55:51 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <0BB4BEFC519F48FDA46C4EA31D75E70A@310e2> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <0BB4BEFC519F48FDA46C4EA31D75E70A@310e2> Message-ID: <568436C7.5080008@jbrain.com> On 12/30/2015 1:49 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Brain" > Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 2:24 PM > >> I am sure it is not that original, but my touch phones don't know the >> difference (like you, I have not tried my rotary with the extra long >> cord), and it is $10.00/year versus $35.00/month for POTS. >> >> Jim > Interesting; what exactly are you paying that $10.00 for? > > m Egad, I goofed. Thought it was $10.00/year, but it's $40.00/year. Still, much cheaper than local telco. * free US and Canada long distance * free local calls * voicemail (drops links with speech into email to us) * Caller ID * 3 Way * 411 * e911 We also have cell phones, if we want to do non US/Canada calling, etc. Or, I can skype. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Dec 30 13:58:25 2015 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:58:25 +0100 Subject: IDE knowledge anyone? In-Reply-To: <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> References: <20151206215749.Horde.7Ya79PY6vVIzL7RtgUdbeSn@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5668A7CF.1080501@philpem.me.uk> <5668B843.1010303@sydex.com> <20151210065834.Horde.tajzI0xFHpdx7DVymoICw4L@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566921E8.7070306@sydex.com> <20151210091847.Horde.C2OH8Hes_87qjdMYq3n2DcG@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669DB13.50901@sydex.com> <20151210212113.Horde.K1GcOlj4miKQCWFK_S00cBj@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <5669E74B.9040805@sydex.com> <20151210223724.Horde.6gcJjEDNAwaGuJdWecfcwFV@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566A08E1.6040502@sydex.com> <20151211124524.Horde.ryaf_yHAW8mU-zNNO1LuSzw@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B21C6.40706@sydex.com> <20151211210441.Horde.KwDwKAxqermrF57pFhjDywd@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <566B3498.8020006@sydex.com> <20151211220031.Horde.mDEFIcCm_DUYZhAqOs06qt9@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151211222609.Horde.67hBIL9A8fcbAw1lj9wPWxg@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230154157.Horde.XOFNeqm88EuhcZIszaQNLFL@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230171702.Horde.zPW6DJsDdZe0UZyI5dq886b@avocado.salatschuessel.net> <20151230200158.Horde.HPR3KcEzGG48CWCVdhxqPVK@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Message-ID: <20151230205825.Horde.8RWwTRe4VtC51_f8t4wgsdl@avocado.salatschuessel.net> Command 91h did the trick. Issueing this once before any read/write commands makes the drive finally work! Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I checked now with MS-DOS and issuing a simple "DIR D:\" command > with a power cycled disk: > > Command: C4h (Read Multiple) > -> 51h, 51h -> 04h > > Command: 10h (Obsolete???) > -> 50h, 50h -> 04h > > Command: 91h (Initialize Drive Parameters) > -> d0h, d0h, d0h, .... 50h > > Command: C6h (Set Multiple Mode) > -> 50h > > Command: C4h (Read Multiple) > -> 58h > > The first C4h Command returns the same error, but > after this it seems like the drive is "initialized" > and then the 2nd C4 command afterwards works! Great. > I guess C6h is only needed because read multiple is > used, so I probably have to do only the 10h and > 91h stuff... just need to find out more about it. > > Does anyone know what command 10h is? The documentation > I have only states "obsolete". > > > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> OK, >> >> detatching the power cord of the disk from my PC while >> running FreeBSD and reattaching it also brings up error >> code 4 on the next access. This does not happen with >> other drives. So it must be some sort of initialisation >> the OS or BIOS does which readies up the drive. >> >> >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> >>> OK, I just got my Logic Analysator and traced the >>> communication on my PC while forcing it to do PIO >>> instead of DMA. >>> I then changed my AVR code to do the exact same >>> commands and nearly the same timings and... nothing >>> changed - the drive still responds with error code >>> 0x04 after the read sector 0x20 command is issued. >>> >>> On the PC: >>> I noticed a time frame of 115,230ns between the >>> 0x20 Command and the first alternate status register >>> read. during that time, INTRQ goes high so the drive >>> "is done" and wants the host to interact with it >>> again. IORDY is the whole time high from the host. >>> The status read is 0x58 on the PC. >>> >>> On the AVR: >>> IORDY is the whole time low (it is not connected), >>> INTRQ stays low the whole time, and the first status >>> read back is 0xD0 for a long time and then it goes to >>> 0xD1 and then 0x59. >>> >>> Things I plan to try next: >>> >>> - power down the drive on the pc, power it up and then >>> try to access sector 1 again and see what happens. >>> Maybe some magic "initialization" is done on bootup >>> what I don't do. >>> - make IORDY high on my AVR too From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 13:59:08 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:59:08 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > > We were spoiled in South Dakota, as somehow (and I am sure someone knows > and will enlighten us/me) the rural telcos (LECs?) tapped into lots of > funds from somewhere to drop fiber to all of the rural homes. 50Mb was the > slowest speed, as I recall, for data. The catch was that you had to buy a > telephone service with your Internet, probably for some legal/regulatory > reason. But, it was cheap, and we bought just the basics, and 50Mb was > more than one could expect when you are 8 miles from the nearest town and > on a large acreage. So, in markets where this type of service is offered, > I think telcos will thrive. > Probably the FCC's Connect America Fund. This is meant to do for broadband what the REA did for electrical power. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 15:02:21 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:02:21 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> On 12/30/2015 11:59 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> >> We were spoiled in South Dakota, as somehow (and I am sure someone >> knows and will enlighten us/me) the rural telcos (LECs?) tapped >> into lots of funds from somewhere to drop fiber to all of the rural >> homes. 50Mb was the slowest speed, as I recall, for data. The >> catch was that you had to buy a telephone service with your >> Internet, probably for some legal/regulatory reason. But, it was >> cheap, and we bought just the basics, and 50Mb was more than one >> could expect when you are 8 miles from the nearest town and on a >> large acreage. So, in markets where this type of service is >> offered, I think telcos will thrive. >> > > Probably the FCC's Connect America Fund. This is meant to do for > broadband what the REA did for electrical power. Probably because we're served here by one of the big outfits (CenturyLink), that sort of money isn't available for us. So we rural folk still suffer--because it doesn't pay to deploy service to low-density areas. It really is amazing that I've been living with internet service that wouldn't even tax a 10base2 "thinnet" LAN connection. In the meantime, CL still pays an annual dividend of something like 8% to its stockholders. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 16:06:27 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 16:06:27 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> Message-ID: It doesn't much matter who the telco is for CAF money to be awarded... you can see who has been awarded what money on the FCC's website, and CenturyLink has definitely gotten a large sum for it ($500M/yr for 6 years). Here's a press release on Clink's own website: http://news.centurylink.com/news/centurylink-to-bring-broadband-to-1-2-million-rural-households-in-33-states Poke around on FCC for CAF and you're sure to find deployment maps.It is a sizable chunk of money up for grabs. On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 3:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/30/2015 11:59 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> >>> We were spoiled in South Dakota, as somehow (and I am sure someone >>> knows and will enlighten us/me) the rural telcos (LECs?) tapped >>> into lots of funds from somewhere to drop fiber to all of the rural >>> homes. 50Mb was the slowest speed, as I recall, for data. The >>> catch was that you had to buy a telephone service with your >>> Internet, probably for some legal/regulatory reason. But, it was >>> cheap, and we bought just the basics, and 50Mb was more than one >>> could expect when you are 8 miles from the nearest town and on a >>> large acreage. So, in markets where this type of service is >>> offered, I think telcos will thrive. >>> >>> >> Probably the FCC's Connect America Fund. This is meant to do for >> broadband what the REA did for electrical power. >> > > Probably because we're served here by one of the big outfits > (CenturyLink), that sort of money isn't available for us. So we rural folk > still suffer--because it doesn't pay to deploy service to low-density areas. > > It really is amazing that I've been living with internet service that > wouldn't even tax a 10base2 "thinnet" LAN connection. In the meantime, CL > still pays an annual dividend of something like 8% to its stockholders. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 16:40:48 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 14:40:48 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> Speaking of 1980s/90s, are telcos pretty much the only ones using ATM nowadays? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 16:43:45 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 14:43:45 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> On 12/30/2015 02:06 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > It doesn't much matter who the telco is for CAF money to be > awarded... you can see who has been awarded what money on the FCC's > website, and CenturyLink has definitely gotten a large sum for it > ($500M/yr for 6 years). > > Here's a press release on Clink's own website: > http://news.centurylink.com/news/centurylink-to-bring-broadband-to-1-2-million-rural-households-in-33-states > > Poke around on FCC for CAF and you're sure to find deployment > maps.It is a sizable chunk of money up for grabs. Well, given the date of the press release, maybe there's hope for me yet. Thanks for the information--it'll give me some basis for complaining. At least on DSLreports, CL doesn't exactly get glowing ratings for service. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Wed Dec 30 17:03:43 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 15:03:43 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845E21.1000700@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've had CL in Seattle for years with minimal disruptions. Nothing compared to my friends/colleagues with ComCrap. On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/30/2015 02:06 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > >> It doesn't much matter who the telco is for CAF money to be >> awarded... you can see who has been awarded what money on the FCC's >> website, and CenturyLink has definitely gotten a large sum for it >> ($500M/yr for 6 years). >> >> Here's a press release on Clink's own website: >> >> http://news.centurylink.com/news/centurylink-to-bring-broadband-to-1-2-million-rural-households-in-33-states >> >> Poke around on FCC for CAF and you're sure to find deployment >> maps.It is a sizable chunk of money up for grabs. >> > > Well, given the date of the press release, maybe there's hope for me yet. > Thanks for the information--it'll give me some basis for complaining. At > least on DSLreports, CL doesn't exactly get glowing ratings for service. > > --Chuck > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From oltmansg at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 17:06:35 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:06:35 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Speaking of 1980s/90s, are telcos pretty much the only ones using ATM > nowadays? > > --Chuck > > I can't speak for the whole Telco segment, but I work on DSLAMs for a living and have done so for the past 15 years. Our earliest generation DSLAMs were ATM based (T1 IMA fed), but within a couple of years transitioned to Ethernet. Almost all of the equipment that I come in contact with is Ethernet at this point, but I'm not on the front-lines and I don't have a lot of exposure to voice services though, but I think it is safe to say that telcos are vested pretty heavily in Ethernet these days. I'll have to ask a co-worker about the makeup of the networks he's seen in the field, but pretty much all the talk I hear about these days is all Ethernet. I occasionally hear about GR303, SIP and pseudowire ( a tech that allows for timely delivery of packetized TDM streams primarily for POTS services). From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 30 17:31:08 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:31:08 -0500 Subject: [SPAM key] - Re: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: References: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> <5682F155.3050205@charter.net> Message-ID: <5684693C.2070402@compsys.to> >Jay Jaeger wrote: >>On 12/29/2015 2:47 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > >>I have had several folks express the desire for them. Over the day or >>few days (we have a gathering coming up tomorrow, and not sure I will >>get to it today, so it could be as late as next week), I will load them >>up on my Google drive in a directory structure analogous to what >>bitsavers uses, and send out the link. >> >>JRJ >> >https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing > >The structure is similar to bitsavers, so look in: > >bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages > >There are two folders, rx01 and rx02 with .img files. > >The image files INCLUDE TRACK 0, so depending on how you plan to use >them, you may need to trim off the first track first. > Any possibility you could provide the full link? I don't see much in the way of information at that site to get me to those floppy images. There might be other DEC and non-DEC PDP-11 images that are of interest. This site also has many DEC and non-DEC files for the PDP-11 http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ I usually find that anything to do with google that is not totally obvious to usually be a pain. Just on doing a search, the usual > 1,000,000 items stop being anything at all relevant after item 100. google is often good to check spelling though (LOL) - I can't spell, so I always use the Spell checker. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Dec 30 17:33:47 2015 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:33:47 -0500 Subject: Software for DEC MINC systems In-Reply-To: References: <0129ABBE-F3B5-4ACD-9D10-977D70BF90EC@MatlockFamily.com> <5682F155.3050205@charter.net> Message-ID: <568469DB.7050402@compsys.to> Sorry - I did it again and forgot to remove the junk in the subject line! >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay Jaeger wrote: > >>> On 12/29/2015 2:47 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> >>> I have had several folks express the desire for them. Over the day or >>> few days (we have a gathering coming up tomorrow, and not sure I will >>> get to it today, so it could be as late as next week), I will load them >>> up on my Google drive in a directory structure analogous to what >>> bitsavers uses, and send out the link. >>> >>> JRJ >> >> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU&usp=sharing >> >> >> The structure is similar to bitsavers, so look in: >> >> bits/DEC/pdp11/floppyimages >> >> There are two folders, rx01 and rx02 with .img files. >> >> The image files INCLUDE TRACK 0, so depending on how you plan to use >> them, you may need to trim off the first track first. > > Any possibility you could provide the full link? I don't see much > in the way of information at that site to get me to those floppy images. > There might be other DEC and non-DEC PDP-11 images that are > of interest. > > This site also has many DEC and non-DEC files for the PDP-11 > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ > > I usually find that anything to do with google that is not totally > obvious > to usually be a pain. > > Just on doing a search, the usual > 1,000,000 items stop being anything > at all relevant after item 100. > > google is often good to check spelling though (LOL) - I can't spell, > so I always use the Spell checker. > > Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 30 19:06:59 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:06:59 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> On 12/30/2015 03:06 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I can't speak for the whole Telco segment, but I work on DSLAMs for > a living and have done so for the past 15 years. Our earliest > generation DSLAMs were ATM based (T1 IMA fed), but within a couple of > years transitioned to Ethernet. Almost all of the equipment that I > come in contact with is Ethernet at this point, but I'm not on the > front-lines and I don't have a lot of exposure to voice services > though, but I think it is safe to say that telcos are vested pretty > heavily in Ethernet these days. Talking with the techs working on the DSLAM near my house, this summer, all said it was still ATM--and much of what went into the DSLAM was brand new. So someone is still making ATM gear. Still, it's very clear that the big expense in telco is still that "last mile" Cabinets full of punch-down blocks and wire, wire, wire. Techs working for weeks with paper charts, one wire at a time. I think the cable guys have it easy. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 30 20:52:34 2015 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:52:34 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> On 12/30/2015 12:39 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > We just dropped our POTS service last month. Our phone > now is an OOMA VoIP Office system to get the features we > wanted/needed. I haven't tried any rotary dial phones on > it since I don't have any. > We need the landline phone to call when the cable is out. We need the VOIP phone to call when the copper line is out (which is more often). > Where I'm at, I can't get DSL. Right now I'm dependent > upon a dedicated microwave link to my iSP. I'm getting > between 20-35Mb/s symmetric (used to be 10Mb/s but it > looks like they upgraded the link recently). I'm paying > $$$'s but since I work from home I need the bandwidth (I'm > currently using about 800GB/mo). I had to put in a > point-to-point WiFi link to get internet to the house from > my shop (where the microwave dish is). I can't get DSL here anymore, the lines are WAY too bad for that. I used to have DSL way back when. I wish I could get symmetric cable speeds here, 30/30 would be FANTASTIC, as I run a web server here. I live with 60/5, but rumors are that we will get upgraded to 100/10 sometime fairly soon. Jon From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 30 22:51:37 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:51:37 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5684B459.3040007@shiresoft.com> On 12/30/15 6:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 12/30/2015 12:39 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> We just dropped our POTS service last month. Our phone now is an >> OOMA VoIP Office system to get the features we wanted/needed. I >> haven't tried any rotary dial phones on it since I don't have any. >> > We need the landline phone to call when the cable is out. We need the > VOIP phone to call when the copper line is out (which is more often). We have cell phones for backup phones (and when we're out) but the cell service isn't great. I have really good signal strength up in my shop but almost none in the house. I have a cellular backup link for when the microwave goes out (my router automatically switches over when the microwave link goes down) but I need to be aware of it and throttle back my bandwidth or else I get a hefty charge! >> Where I'm at, I can't get DSL. Right now I'm dependent upon a >> dedicated microwave link to my iSP. I'm getting between 20-35Mb/s >> symmetric (used to be 10Mb/s but it looks like they upgraded the link >> recently). I'm paying $$$'s but since I work from home I need the >> bandwidth (I'm currently using about 800GB/mo). I had to put in a >> point-to-point WiFi link to get internet to the house from my shop >> (where the microwave dish is). > I can't get DSL here anymore, the lines are WAY too bad for that. I > used to have DSL way back when. I wish I could get symmetric cable > speeds here, 30/30 would be FANTASTIC, as I run a web server here. I > live with 60/5, but rumors are that we will get upgraded to 100/10 > sometime fairly soon. We're at least 2.5 miles from the DSLAM, so DSL is *not* an option. That's the distance on the private roads and I haven't seen where the DSLAM might be (nearest town is 5 miles away once you get to the "public" roads). I'm paying mid-3 figures for my link. Rumor has it that we'll have Gb/s fiber brought in but that's 2-3 years away at least. For now I'm paying for what I need...pulling down 100GB worth of git repos for work still takes a while. ;-) TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:01:25 2015 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 05:01:25 +0000 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I just saw it on youtube. Cool story. It was shocking how unprepared the CIA and FBI was. I hope they are more on there toes today. Computer security as we do it today is truly flawed. I doubt it has gotten much better since then. If you restrict information too much it is like a blockade to progress. If you open it up too much, it is like a free for all. Most of the industrial espionage is discovered after the fact, usually months after it has be done. One wonders how much goes undetected. Most of those getting caught are in upper management. Us lowly grunts don't seem to get involved as often or maybe there are those among us that are just that much better at covering our tracks. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rod Smallwood Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 1:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me Hi Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. I think LBL must have bought one of everything. The story (true) is not bad either. I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Rod From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:06:48 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 00:06:48 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... > I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on > Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers > specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems > with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant > transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating > - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them > at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be swapped, depending on the equipment. I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the Big Horse at Endicott. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 30 23:23:13 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:23:13 -0800 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... > >> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. > ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant > transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be > swapped, depending on the equipment. > > I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the > Big Horse at Endicott. I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part numbers for the ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part number for the capacitor. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:29:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 00:29:14 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Of course! Find the exception that proves the rule! -- Will On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... >> >>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >> >> ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant >> transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be >> swapped, depending on the equipment. >> >> I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the >> Big Horse at Endicott. > > > I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part > numbers for the > ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part > number for the > capacitor. > > TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 30 23:30:38 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:30:38 -0800 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> On 12/30/15 9:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Of course! Find the exception that proves the rule! ;-) However, it would've been nice if it were only necessary to change the capacitor! TTFN - Guy > > -- > Will > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... >>> >>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>> ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant >>> transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be >>> swapped, depending on the equipment. >>> >>> I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the >>> Big Horse at Endicott. >> >> I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part >> numbers for the >> ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part >> number for the >> capacitor. >> >> TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 23:37:41 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 00:37:41 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I bet you (or Mike, actually) could get it to work by trial and error, swapping in caps. The transformers (generally) are apparently pretty forgiving - being off in frequency just results in lost efficiency, maybe 10-15 percent lost at most. Not flames, anyway. -- Will On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:30 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On 12/30/15 9:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> Of course! Find the exception that proves the rule! > > > ;-) However, it would've been nice if it were only necessary to change > the capacitor! > > TTFN - Guy > >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... >>>> >>>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>>> >>>> ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant >>>> transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be >>>> swapped, depending on the equipment. >>>> >>>> I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the >>>> Big Horse at Endicott. >>> >>> >>> I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part >>> numbers for the >>> ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part >>> number for the >>> capacitor. >>> >>> TTFN - Guy > > From brain at jbrain.com Thu Dec 31 00:02:32 2015 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 00:02:32 -0600 Subject: Telecom woes (was: Re: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes) In-Reply-To: <5684B459.3040007@shiresoft.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> <5684B459.3040007@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5684C4F8.8070501@jbrain.com> On 12/30/2015 10:51 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > We're at least 2.5 miles from the DSLAM, so DSL is *not* an option. > That's the distance on the private roads and I haven't seen where the > DSLAM might be (nearest town is 5 miles away once you get to the > "public" roads). We're in a similar boat. We're too far away for DSL, microwave can't reach us due to the treeline, and Cable isn't available here. I took a page from FullTime RV folks, and bought a commercial grade router/AP that uses cellular modems for uplink, and then found a business cellular package that has unlimited use. We burn through 400GB every month here. Jim From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 00:13:04 2015 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 00:13:04 -0600 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> <56832431.8020209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 12/28/2015 04:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. > > Indeed! > > I remember seeing this on live TV many years ago. You can find it on > youtube now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcKxaq1FTac Thanks for digging that up, watched it during dinner tonight. I had read the book in the early 90s but never knew Nova did a piece on it. It was cheesily-acted (with the real people, so that's ok) but a fun breeze through the story. j From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Dec 31 00:14:33 2015 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 22:14:33 -0800 Subject: Telecom woes In-Reply-To: <5684C4F8.8070501@jbrain.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> <5684B459.3040007@shiresoft.com> <5684C4F8.8070501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5684C7C9.8030505@shiresoft.com> On 12/30/15 10:02 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > On 12/30/2015 10:51 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> We're at least 2.5 miles from the DSLAM, so DSL is *not* an option. >> That's the distance on the private roads and I haven't seen where the >> DSLAM might be (nearest town is 5 miles away once you get to the >> "public" roads). > We're in a similar boat. We're too far away for DSL, microwave can't > reach us due to the treeline, and Cable isn't available here. I took a > page from FullTime RV folks, and bought a commercial grade router/AP > that uses cellular modems for uplink, and then found a business > cellular package that has unlimited use. We burn through 400GB every > month here. I feel your pain! I had a "home" package with the same ISP when we first moved in. Since that tower was "downslope" from our house there wasn't a problem. When I switched to their commercial package (the speeds and network congestion were making it difficult at times to get work done), I had to switch to a new tower (because it's a dedicated link and there was no more space on the tower I was pointing at). They had to mount the microwave dish on a tower on the roof of my shop...we're at the top of a hill and I'm still having to shoot between some trees. I'll probably have to get an arborist to come out in a year or two and trim some branches. I should probably investigate a business cellular package. My ISP did have an outage that lasted about 8 hours a few months ago and that was painful because I was trying to conserve data usage not to mention that my cellular modem at that point decided to take a holiday and not bring up the cellular link. TTFN - Guy From mark at matlockfamily.com Wed Dec 30 17:12:43 2015 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:12:43 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 18, Issue 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 30, 2015, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:47:17 -0600 > From: Jay Jaeger > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Software for DEC MINC systems > Message-ID: <5682F155.3050205 at charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > >>> >>> On 12/27/2015 10:15 PM, Mark Matlock wrote: >>>> >>>> The software I am looking for are the MINC software packages FEP (Fortran Enhancement Package) V2.1 and FRP (Fortran Real_time Package) V1.0. Also SSP V1.3 (Scientific Subroutines Package) and LSP V1.2 (Laboratory Subroutines Package) would be great to find as well. These all run under RT-11 and I understand that there was also a version (V1.1) of FEP and V1.0 of FRP that ran under RSX11M which would be fantastic to find as I am more interested in RSX11M. This is based on documents in the MINC folder in the bitsavers online archives. >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>> >>> I have some MINC hardware (also a MINC/23 I think) and software, but it >>> does not look like I have what you are looking for. >>> >>> What I do have images of (except for the one marked "(Bad)" that seem >>> likely MINC related: >>> >>> RX01: >>> >>> CONTENTS COMMENT >>> LAB Applications-11 Library V3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YB, NSUM=41906 >>> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 1 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA1, NSUM=56190 >>> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 2 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA2, NSUM=28900 >>> LAB Applications-11 Lib Source 3 of 3 DEC-11-SLABA-C-YA3, NSUM=65055 >>> >>> CONTENTS COMMENT >>> PLOT, Ver June '80 DECUS 11-381 RT-11 Media(KA) (Bad) >>> MINC BASIC/FORTRAN IV VIR TERM DECUS 11-417 RT-11, NSUM=22281 >>> PLOTTING PKG For RT-11 FORTRAN DECUS 11-431 RT-11, NSUM=12228 >>> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 1 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=15424 >>> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 2 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=1369 >>> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 3 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=2841 >>> LABORATORY APPLICATIONS-11 4 of 4, (KD) DECUS 11-448 RT-11, NSUM=21353 >>> FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 1 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=14187 >>> FEP2: FINITE ELEMENT PROG 3DIM 2 of 2 KB DECUS 11-461 RT-11, NSUM=26552 >>> >>> >>> RX02: >>> >>> CONTENTS COMMENT >>> MINC MA DEMO/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J837B-BC, NSUM=04649 >>> MINC MA DEMO/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H107D-BC, NSUM=58263 >>> MINC MA SYS/23 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-J836B-BC, NSUM=17510 >>> MINC MA SYS/03 V2.0 BIN RX2 BA-H106D-BC, NSUM=61253 >> >> > > I have had several folks express the desire for them. Over the day or > few days (we have a gathering coming up tomorrow, and not sure I will > get to it today, so it could be as late as next week), I will load them > up on my Google drive in a directory structure analogous to what > bitsavers uses, and send out the link. > > JRJ Jay, Thank you so much for putting the RX01 and RX02 images on your Google drive. This afternoon I was able to download them all and in RT11/Simh copy all the files to a large DU: type drive to both verify that the disk images downloaded correctly and to put everything in one convenient volume to load on a microSD card for the SCSI2SD transfer to a real PDP-11. I didn't notice any file names duplicating as I combined the contents of the floppies and if that the case there were 168 files on the RX01s and 64 files on the RX02s with a combined size of 3976 blocks. Browsing through the files I saw lots of great example code for a wide range of scientific routines!! Thanks again for taking the time to put the files out there. Thanks again!! Mark From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 01:45:27 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 20:45:27 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... Mike On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 6:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I bet you (or Mike, actually) could get it to work by trial and error, > swapping in caps. The transformers (generally) are apparently pretty > forgiving - being off in frequency just results in lost efficiency, > maybe 10-15 percent lost at most. Not flames, anyway. > > -- > Will > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:30 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> >> On 12/30/15 9:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> Of course! Find the exception that proves the rule! >> >> >> ;-) However, it would've been nice if it were only necessary to change >> the capacitor! >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... >>>>> >>>>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>>>> >>>>> ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant >>>>> transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be >>>>> swapped, depending on the equipment. >>>>> >>>>> I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the >>>>> Big Horse at Endicott. >>>> >>>> >>>> I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part >>>> numbers for the >>>> ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part >>>> number for the >>>> capacitor. >>>> >>>> TTFN - Guy >> >> -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 03:20:06 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 22:20:06 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <0390D361-48C6-4E22-845D-7A2F939341AE@cs.ubc.ca> <038701d13cb1$355b9f50$a012ddf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I did and never got a reply... Could you ping him to check his spam folder, or email me directly? Thanks Mike On Dec 23, 2015 1:10 AM, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > His address is symphony.robotica at gmail.com. his name is Sergio. You can > all > talk directly to him. > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > Em 22/12/2015 10:06, "Dave Wade" escreveu: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Santo > > > Nucifora > > > Sent: 22 December 2015 12:00 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: Re: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 6:55 AM, Alexandre Souza < > > > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > That is easy, it is fairly common here. I know of a friend who has > > some. > > > > > > > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > > > Em 22/12/2015 09:51, "Mike Ross" escreveu: > > > > > > > > > Do we have any South American correspondents listening in? I'm sure > > > > > I read that IBM had a factory in Brazil producing these - and they > > > > > kept on churning 3278s out for some considerable time after the > rest > > > > > of the world had moved on. I believe it was also stated that there > > > > > was considerable redesign using more modern components inside that > > > > > classic > > > > > 3278 case on these later Brazilian examples. I'd certainly like to > > > > > get hold of a couple. > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'd be interested in one, after Mike who started the thread. I am in > > Canada. > > > Email me off list. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Santo Nucifora > > > > > > Well I have been looking for one in the UK with no luck. I have some > > ICL/Nokia clones but not a real 3270 > > > > Dave > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Dec 31 05:05:09 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 03:05:09 -0800 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> On 12/30/2015 11:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk > Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about > S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, > fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! > > And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks > drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even > then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... > > Mike Order a boatload of 8kw honda generators? I think you could get 40 amps out of them. Any reason the power has to be in phase? I know for the mainframe power that might not be high enough, but on smaller machines it would take care of the problem. thanks JIm > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 6:37 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I bet you (or Mike, actually) could get it to work by trial and error, >> swapping in caps. The transformers (generally) are apparently pretty >> forgiving - being off in frequency just results in lost efficiency, >> maybe 10-15 percent lost at most. Not flames, anyway. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:30 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> >>> On 12/30/15 9:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>> Of course! Find the exception that proves the rule! >>> >>> ;-) However, it would've been nice if it were only necessary to change >>> the capacitor! >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>>> -- >>>> Will >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:23 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 12/30/15 9:06 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>>>>> Sorry about digging up a slightly stale thread... >>>>>> >>>>>>> I haven't done any troubleshooting yet but checking the manuals on >>>>>>> Bitsavers tells me my US 3278s have ferroresonant transformers >>>>>>> specified as 120V 60Hz only. This can be expected to cause problems >>>>>>> with 120V 50Hz here in NZ from my knowledge of how ferroresonant >>>>>>> transformers work; I'll get excessive magnetic currents - overheating >>>>>>> - all kinds of nasties. I can wind the voltage down a bit and run them >>>>>>> at 90-100V but that doesn't help much. >>>>>> ...but straight from the horses mouth, most IBM ferroresonant >>>>>> transformers will work at 50 or 60 Hz. The capacitor may need to be >>>>>> swapped, depending on the equipment. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was hanging around some IBM old timers this evening, including the >>>>>> Big Horse at Endicott. >>>>> >>>>> I just looked up the FE manual for the 3278 and it shows 5 different part >>>>> numbers for the >>>>> ferroresonant transformer (depending upon region) and only a single part >>>>> number for the >>>>> capacitor. >>>>> >>>>> TTFN - Guy >>> > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Dec 31 05:10:40 2015 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 11:10:40 +0000 Subject: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. Message-ID: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> Hi Went to Starwars last night. Oh boy did they get it right this time!! Look and feel of the original 1977 version. Really good new actors. In a way it was like a retelling of history but in a completly new way. The bombing runs up the trench used the same sighting system as thirty odd years ago. Added to that several scenes were filmed at the former US Airbase at Greenham Common. Its a mile from where I live and I passed within 50yards of where the filming took place on my way to the cinema. The bunkers are in a natural hollow in the ground and surrounded by triple fences with watch towers. In the film you can see the typical camoflarge netting in the back ground. - Nothing to do with the film. They were trying to hide the set from passing aircraft. They managed to keep it a secret until one day a guy was passing in his microlight and spotted the MF (or at least most of it) parked by the old cruise missile bunkers.. He was not a fan but his son was. He calls his son up on his mobile and says: You know that spaceship you got for Christmas years ago. Well there's a big one at Greenham Common. The answer is not repeatable here but he ended by saying I'm on my way to your landing strip - pick me up. It was true and it made the local paper before Lucasfilm could do anything about it. This Abrams guy really understood what people wanted. Considering how unwell Carrie Fisher is she gave a really good performance. She gets my special "The show must go on" award. Disney must be so pleased and if I know them they will keep the faith. Rod From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 05:17:39 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 00:17:39 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2016 12:05 AM, "jwsmobile" wrote: > > > > On 12/30/2015 11:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk >> Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about >> S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, >> fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! >> >> And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks >> drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even >> then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... >> >> Mike > > Order a boatload of 8kw honda generators? I think you could get 40 amps out of them. Any reason the power has to be in phase? > > I know for the mainframe power that might not be high enough, but on smaller machines it would take care of the problem. > > thanks > JIm Jim most of my 'interesting' machines - both S/3s, S/38, 1800, big disk drives - do need three phase 60Hz. The 2741s, 3741, 5496, S/32, S/34, & S/36 are single phase but almost certainly need 60Hz for power supplies and/or disk drives On the plus side all of the stuff I brought over from the UK will work fine - includes pdp-15s, pdp-12s, KL & KS 10, and a bunch of RK05s with 50Hz pulleys! They all take 240V 50Hz. Mike From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 06:33:55 2015 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 08:33:55 -0400 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> On 2015-12-31 7:17 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > On Jan 1, 2016 12:05 AM, "jwsmobile" wrote: >> >> >> On 12/30/2015 11:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk >>> Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about >>> S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, >>> fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! >>> >>> And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks >>> drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even >>> then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... >>> >>> Mike >> Order a boatload of 8kw honda generators? I think you could get 40 amps > out of them. Any reason the power has to be in phase? >> I know for the mainframe power that might not be high enough, but on > smaller machines it would take care of the problem. >> thanks >> JIm > Jim most of my 'interesting' machines - both S/3s, S/38, 1800, big disk > drives - do need three phase 60Hz. The 2741s, 3741, 5496, S/32, S/34, & > S/36 are single phase but almost certainly need 60Hz for power supplies > and/or disk drives > > On the plus side all of the stuff I brought over from the UK will work fine > - includes pdp-15s, pdp-12s, KL & KS 10, and a bunch of RK05s with 50Hz > pulleys! They all take 240V 50Hz. > > Mike All of those IBM machines you listed will have resonant capacitors in the power supplies, and all have at least one synchronous motor inside, not to mention all of the AC fans inside the machines. Paul. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 06:42:03 2015 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 01:42:03 +1300 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2016 1:34 AM, "Paul Berger" wrote: > > On 2015-12-31 7:17 AM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> On Jan 1, 2016 12:05 AM, "jwsmobile" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/30/2015 11:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk >>>> Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about >>>> S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, >>>> fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! >>>> >>>> And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks >>>> drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even >>>> then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... >>>> >>>> Mike >>> >>> Order a boatload of 8kw honda generators? I think you could get 40 amps >> >> out of them. Any reason the power has to be in phase? >>> >>> I know for the mainframe power that might not be high enough, but on >> >> smaller machines it would take care of the problem. >>> >>> thanks >>> JIm >> >> Jim most of my 'interesting' machines - both S/3s, S/38, 1800, big disk >> drives - do need three phase 60Hz. The 2741s, 3741, 5496, S/32, S/34, & >> S/36 are single phase but almost certainly need 60Hz for power supplies >> and/or disk drives >> >> On the plus side all of the stuff I brought over from the UK will work fine >> - includes pdp-15s, pdp-12s, KL & KS 10, and a bunch of RK05s with 50Hz >> pulleys! They all take 240V 50Hz. >> >> Mike > > All of those IBM machines you listed will have resonant capacitors in the power supplies, and all have at least one synchronous motor inside, not to mention all of the AC fans inside the machines. > > Paul. Yep. I was going through the 5410 parts lists on Bitsavers earlier; it even lists different part numbers for the fans, 50Hz vs. 60Hz. So it's frequency converter or bust. Anyone got any specific suggestions? Someone earlier vaguely waved about the name 'Elgar'; any other suggestions or advice based on experience?? Thanks! From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 07:27:15 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:27:15 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 30, 2015, at 7:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Talking with the techs working on the DSLAM near my house, this summer, all said it was still ATM--and much of what went into the DSLAM was brand new. So someone is still making ATM gear. Not saying they don't know what they are talking about, but if it's brand new equipment, particularly vdsl then I find that hard to believe from what I've been exposed to. Vdsl does fallback to adsl mode for adsl modems in which case the dslam has to have an ATM interworking function, but the uplink to the dslam would still be Ethernet, fiber or copper. Did you happen to get a peek in the cabinet? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 07:36:14 2015 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 08:36:14 -0500 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was reporting on the ferroresonants, and nothing else. -- Will On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 7:33 AM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2015-12-31 7:17 AM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> On Jan 1, 2016 12:05 AM, "jwsmobile" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/30/2015 11:45 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks for the thought... my main concern is the System/3s and Henk >>>> Stegeman - who has forgotten more than most of us will ever know about >>>> S/3! - says that 60Hz S/3 on 50Hz power is a no-go. Different voltage, >>>> fine - transformer can be restrapped. Different frequency... trouble! >>>> >>>> And then there are rotary machines of course. I bet you half my disks >>>> drives need the right frequency or a spindle pulley change.. and even >>>> then *they* probably have ferroresonants in their power... >>>> >>>> Mike >>> >>> Order a boatload of 8kw honda generators? I think you could get 40 amps >> >> out of them. Any reason the power has to be in phase? >>> >>> I know for the mainframe power that might not be high enough, but on >> >> smaller machines it would take care of the problem. >>> >>> thanks >>> JIm >> >> Jim most of my 'interesting' machines - both S/3s, S/38, 1800, big disk >> drives - do need three phase 60Hz. The 2741s, 3741, 5496, S/32, S/34, & >> S/36 are single phase but almost certainly need 60Hz for power supplies >> and/or disk drives >> >> On the plus side all of the stuff I brought over from the UK will work >> fine >> - includes pdp-15s, pdp-12s, KL & KS 10, and a bunch of RK05s with 50Hz >> pulleys! They all take 240V 50Hz. >> >> Mike > > All of those IBM machines you listed will have resonant capacitors in the > power supplies, and all have at least one synchronous motor inside, not to > mention all of the AC fans inside the machines. > > Paul. From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 31 08:16:36 2015 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 08:16:36 -0600 Subject: Telecom woes (was: Re: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes) In-Reply-To: <5684C4F8.8070501@jbrain.com> References: <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <568424F2.3010007@shiresoft.com> <56849872.5050605@pico-systems.com> <5684B459.3040007@shiresoft.com> <5684C4F8.8070501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20151231141636.GA3687@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/31/2015 at 12:02AM -0600), Jim Brain wrote: > On 12/30/2015 10:51 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >We're at least 2.5 miles from the DSLAM, so DSL is *not* an > >option. That's the distance on the private roads and I haven't > >seen where the DSLAM might be (nearest town is 5 miles away once > >you get to the "public" roads). > We're in a similar boat. We're too far away for DSL, microwave > can't reach us due to the treeline, and Cable isn't available here. > I took a page from FullTime RV folks, and bought a commercial grade > router/AP that uses cellular modems for uplink, and then found a > business cellular package that has unlimited use. We burn through > 400GB every month here. I build those kinds of routers for my day job. It's pretty much routine now to see 50Mbps up and down on a 4G LTE link. CAT4 will do even better. I have a little box running OpenWRT (totally open source) with the cellular modem inside and ethernet out the back. Does what a cable modem+router or DSL modem+router does but does it over cellular. As you have discovered though, finding an affordable package is the trick. My world is IoT/M2M and so there is a lot of bundling and pooling of plans going on to reduce the per user costs in that space. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Dec 31 09:00:38 2015 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:00:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me In-Reply-To: References: <568104D2.4040907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <201512311500.KAA05087@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] industrial espionage [...] > One wonders how much goes undetected. > Most of those getting caught are in upper management. Us lowly > grunts don't seem to get involved as often or maybe there are those > among us that are just that much better at covering our tracks. Or, when a low-level peon is caught, it doesn't make the news, so the world at large doesn't notice. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dugo at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 31 09:13:53 2015 From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 16:13:53 +0100 Subject: Old versions of 2.11BSD Message-ID: Over at TUHS an attempt to put the history of 2.11BSD under version control (git) stranded somewhat. After some digging the patchlevels that can be found in the archives are now 195, 277, 303 and 431. The base 2.11BSD is sorely missing. The numbered updates by Steven M. Schultz are not pure context diffs. eg. an attempt to reverse them breaks where ld.c is removed in update #160 and can't be pieced back together accurately using 2.10xBSD and assorted patches. Maybe someone here who missed the thread on the TUHS mailing list has a really old copy of 2.11BSD lying around? /Jacob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 10:12:47 2015 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 16:12:47 -0000 Subject: Ferroresonant transformers and 3278 In-Reply-To: References: <5684BBC1.2010701@shiresoft.com> <5684BD7E.9050203@shiresoft.com> <56850BE5.7080103@jwsss.com> <568520B3.9020200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04f601d143e6$16e6d260$44b47720$@gmail.com> > > > > Paul. > > Yep. I was going through the 5410 parts lists on Bitsavers earlier; it even lists > different part numbers for the fans, 50Hz vs. 60Hz. > > So it's frequency converter or bust. Anyone got any specific suggestions? > Someone earlier vaguely waved about the name 'Elgar'; any other > suggestions or advice based on experience?? > > Thanks! When wanted to go the other way, and I still need to go the other way for my Documation Card Reader, someone suggested getting a UPS with the appropriate output but with multiple inputs and using that to run the system.... Dave From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 10:58:43 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 08:58:43 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> On 12/31/2015 05:27 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Not saying they don't know what they are talking about, but if it's > brand new equipment, particularly vdsl then I find that hard to > believe from what I've been exposed to. Vdsl does fallback to adsl > mode for adsl modems in which case the dslam has to have an ATM > interworking function, but the uplink to the dslam would still be > Ethernet, fiber or copper. > > Did you happen to get a peek in the cabinet? Several times. When the weather improves and they start working again, I'll corral a tech and ask him to open one up for photos. They're great guys to a man/womam. It's a big cabinet--perhaps 10-12 feed long. There are smaller cabinets there too, but they're mostly filled with wire. What surprises me is the age of the customer copper. Folks around here feed from individual pedestals on the road, using 5-pair buried cable that's probably 30 or more years old to the residence. When the local REC (rural electrical cooperative) came through about 5 years ago to replace the buried individual 12KV customer feeds, it would have been a golden opportunity to bury new customer lines, sadly ignored. So while my electrical goes along the driveway from the disconnect on the road to the transformer in my yard, the telco buried wire wanders across the property among the trees until it finally enters the house. During the BBS era, all of those 5 pairs saw use. Not so today. --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 11:40:40 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 11:40:40 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 10:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Several times. When the weather improves and they start working again, > I'll corral a tech and ask him to open one up for photos. They're great > guys to a man/womam. It's a big cabinet--perhaps 10-12 feed long. There > are smaller cabinets there too, but they're mostly filled with wire. > > What surprises me is the age of the customer copper. Folks around here > feed from individual pedestals on the road, using 5-pair buried cable > that's probably 30 or more years old to the residence. When the local REC > (rural electrical cooperative) came through about 5 years ago to replace > the buried individual 12KV customer feeds, it would have been a golden > opportunity to bury new customer lines, sadly ignored. So while my > electrical goes along the driveway from the disconnect on the road to the > transformer in my yard, the telco buried wire wanders across the property > among the trees until it finally enters the house. > > There's a lot of pressure to reuse old copper. As you indicate, there's a ton of it still in the ground and it's not easy in a lot of cases to dig it up or replace, plus it's already invested in, wholesale replacement costs money, and if you don't have to, why bother? In multi-unit housing, it may not be economically feasible or practical to retrofit the building to use anything but the existing wiring. As a result, you see a lot of fiber-to-the-node installations or fiber-to-the-distribution-point, particularly in established rural applications. The death of copper has been preached since I started into this business. Back then copper's savior was HDSL, and ever since there's been some other xDSL technology improvements to squeeze more out of the existing copper plant. So, I'd say realistically you're likely to see copper for a good while longer, but it is getting pushed farther and farther to the edges of the networks. I'm happy for it to stick around for as long as possible. :) Eventually xPON will supplant it, and the Cable company and Telco networks will look virtually identical. From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 11:46:30 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 11:46:30 -0600 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: I should note too that more "forward looking" approaches such as in Australia with NBN Co have re-evaluated their wholesale approach at a fiber-only deployment to also include some copper deployments, due to cost pressures. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 31 12:17:01 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:17:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > The death of copper has been preached since I started into this > business. Almost half a century ago, there were attempts to use aluminium instead of copper for house wiring. It did not go well. "After having dug to a depth of 1,000 meters last year, French scientists found traces of copper dating back 1,000 years and came to the conclusion that their ancestors had a telephone network all those centuries ago." "Not to be outdone by the French, English scientists dug to a depth of 2,000 meters and shortly after headlines in the U.K. newspapers read: "English archeologists have found traces of 2,000-year-old fiber-optic cable and have concluded that their ancestors had an advanced high-tech digital communications network a thousand years earlier than the French." "One week later, Scottish newspapers reported the following: "After digging as deep as 5,000 meters, scientists had found absolutely nothing. They, therefore, concluded that 5,000 years ago Scots were already using wireless technology." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 12:27:34 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:27:34 -0800 Subject: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56857396.8000703@sydex.com> On 12/31/2015 09:40 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > So, I'd say realistically you're likely to see copper for a good > while longer, but it is getting pushed farther and farther to the > edges of the networks. I'm happy for it to stick around for as long > as possible. :) Eventually xPON will supplant it, and the Cable > company and Telco networks will look virtually identical. I've long thought that will eventually be the case. It makes sense. One thing that aerial fiber doesn't appear to suffer from is theft. It's not unknown for a bunch of guys to steal a half-mile of telco copper on a quiet rural road where nobody's likely to ask what they're doing. The "stop and ask" is pretty prudent, as not all telco stuff around here is company-serviced--CL uses contractors extensively, so it's not always a company vehicle at the site. The copper theft seems to have abated around here. At its height, idiots were jumping the fences around 500KV substations to rip up the grounding grid. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 12:43:35 2015 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:43:35 -0500 Subject: paging Jack Rubin or Jason Timmons, Mike Lee, Chicago Folks Message-ID: Jack/Jason/Mike Lee, etc. If you get a chance please contact me privately about a Chicago rescue. Thanks 1mb -- Bill From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 13:47:49 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:47:49 -0600 Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Almost half a century ago, there were attempts to use aluminium instead of > copper for house wiring. It did not go well. > No, it didn't! We looked at several old houses back in 2012 before we bought the house we're in now. Several of these houses were from the late 60's/early 70's and that concern was forefront in my mind with them. They still sell special outlets and switches compatible with aluminum wiring in the hardware stores. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 31 13:59:26 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 14:59:26 -0500 Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <797C1018-B3E9-4634-A79F-A3A181CD0494@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2015, at 2:47 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> >> Almost half a century ago, there were attempts to use aluminium instead of >> copper for house wiring. It did not go well. >> > > No, it didn't! We looked at several old houses back in 2012 before we > bought the house we're in now. Several of these houses were from the late > 60's/early 70's and that concern was forefront in my mind with them. They > still sell special outlets and switches compatible with aluminum wiring in > the hardware stores. I haven't see aluminum-rated devices in hardware stores in many years. Be careful: typically they will be labeled either as "copper only" or as "CU/AL". But that doesn't mean "copper or aluminum" -- it means you're allowed to user copper-clad aluminum. That's a hack type of wire that was adopted for a while after the plain aluminum was discovered to be a Very Bad Idea. It's not quite as bad but there is really no justification for its existence, and indeed it is no longer the current practice. Copper-clad aluminum can be used with copper without much trouble, but the wire is thicker and it breaks more easily. Plain aluminum must only be used with devices specifically rated for plain aluminum. You may need to use anti-corrosion paste. "devices" includes wire nuts -- standard copper-only wire nuts are not approved for use with aluminum wire. My experience is that aluminum-rated devices and wire nuts can only be found at electric supply specialists, and they are vastly more expensive than regular devices. When I used up my box of aluminum-rated wire nuts (standard hardware store item in 1980) I found that trying to buy them now (2005 or so) was possible but I'd have to pay a dollar EACH, if not more. The only place where you're likely still to find aluminum-rated devices without a lot of effort is in high current stuff -- main breakers, 100 amp branch breakers, that sort of thing -- because aluminum cable is still used there at least by some people. Personally, I never use it; 2 gauge copper may cost more but I prefer the peace of mind it delivers. paul From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 14:17:35 2015 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 14:17:35 -0600 Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <797C1018-B3E9-4634-A79F-A3A181CD0494@comcast.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> <797C1018-B3E9-4634-A79F-A3A181CD0494@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I haven't see aluminum-rated devices in hardware stores in many years. Be > careful: typically they will be labeled either as "copper only" or as > "CU/AL". But that doesn't mean "copper or aluminum" -- it means you're > allowed to user copper-clad aluminum. That's a hack type of wire that was > adopted for a while after the plain aluminum was discovered to be a Very > Bad Idea. It's not quite as bad but there is really no justification for > its existence, and indeed it is no longer the current practice. > Copper-clad aluminum can be used with copper without much trouble, but the > wire is thicker and it breaks more easily. > Hmm... if this is to be believed then you can use these for aluminum wiring... http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Duplex-CO-ALR-Outlet-Ivory-R51-12650-00I/100357026 "CO/ALR switches and outlets are required anywhere aluminum wiring has been installed." Although I agree with you... I wouldn't want to knowingly sign up for a house with aluminum wiring because improperly repairing the wiring could result in just as much fire risk as if you didn't do any repairs at all. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 31 14:27:37 2015 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 15:27:37 -0500 Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <000001d14294$94b94d60$be2be820$@classiccmp.org> <56833036.20404@sydex.com> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> <797C1018-B3E9-4634-A79F-A3A181CD0494@comcast.net> Message-ID: <997A59D9-630E-45D1-A1B2-38BDF6058FDA@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> I haven't see aluminum-rated devices in hardware stores in many years. Be >> careful: typically they will be labeled either as "copper only" or as >> "CU/AL". But that doesn't mean "copper or aluminum" -- it means you're >> allowed to user copper-clad aluminum. That's a hack type of wire that was >> adopted for a while after the plain aluminum was discovered to be a Very >> Bad Idea. It's not quite as bad but there is really no justification for >> its existence, and indeed it is no longer the current practice. >> Copper-clad aluminum can be used with copper without much trouble, but the >> wire is thicker and it breaks more easily. >> > > Hmm... if this is to be believed then you can use these for aluminum > wiring... > > http://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-15-Amp-Duplex-CO-ALR-Outlet-Ivory-R51-12650-00I/100357026 > > "CO/ALR switches and outlets are required anywhere aluminum wiring has been > installed." It sure sounds like it. I'm impressed, especially at that price. paul From seefriek at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 14:30:06 2015 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 15:30:06 -0500 Subject: The KGB, the Computer, and Me Message-ID: From: Mouse >> [...] industrial espionage [...] >> One wonders how much goes undetected. >> Most of those getting caught are in upper management. Us lowly >> grunts don't seem to get involved as often or maybe there are those >> among us that are just that much better at covering our tracks. > >Or, when a low-level peon is caught, it doesn't make the news, so the >world at large doesn't notice. > This is a big part of my world these days. My wildly subjective, overly general observations: 1) When a big fish is caught, it's usually an "I took a bunch of doco I shouldn't have to my next job" situation. I've discussed more nefarious high-level mole scenarios with the FBI numerous times. It happens, but it's not apparently that common. 2) When a little fish is caught, it's usually some variation on "I'll teach them". And as Mouse notes, effort is usually made not to publicize the event unless there's a regulatory driver that requires it. That said, there's a *huge* amount of little fish "espionage" that flies under the radar. Things like client lists, marketing plans and confidential designs quietly walk out the door all the time and are rarely noticed. With these sorts of things, it's fiendishly difficult to assess the impact on the victims business. 3) No one is particularly good at covering their tracks (including people who in theory know how to do it). Unfortunately, the tools to proactively spot data exfiltration are rarely implemented and even more rarely implemented well. BTW...that's more an function of how difficult the problem is rather than an indictment of the practitioners. KJ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 14:48:25 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:48:25 -0800 Subject: Copper (Was: 10 forgotten wonders of 1980s homes In-Reply-To: <997A59D9-630E-45D1-A1B2-38BDF6058FDA@comcast.net> References: <000701d14217$d1bfbd20$753f3760$@internode.on.net> <56837AF6.7010800@sydex.com> <56841E90.50803@sydex.com> <56842F63.60108@jbrain.com> <5684465D.2070507@sydex.com> <56845D70.1060403@sydex.com> <56847FB3.6080906@sydex.com> <5BB79F23-7959-4049-A006-E6BEF05ED0C2@gmail.com> <56855EC3.4090606@sydex.com> <797C1018-B3E9-4634-A79F-A3A181CD0494@comcast.net> <997A59D9-630E-45D1-A1B2-38BDF6058FDA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56859499.6000903@sydex.com> > On Dec 31, 2015, at 3:17 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > "CO/ALR switches and outlets are required anywhere aluminum wiring has been > installed." I thought that the only approved method was using a hydraulic tool to crimp a copper pigtail onto aluminum. My kitchen still has aluminum wiring for the stove and oven hookups--gray wire-nuts with goop inside., as does the laundry room drier The heat pump and water heater similarly have aluminum wire, but there the runs are very short from the breaker box--perhaps 5 feet, so I don't worry too much about those. I always wondered about how effective the gray nuts were... Fortunately, the lighting and low-voltage circuits are all 12/3 copper. I wired my shop outlets with 12/3 also, because copper prices were at a low then and the price difference between 14/3 and 12/3 was negligible.. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 31 15:09:07 2015 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:09:07 -0800 Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> On 12/31/15 3:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Went to Starwars last night. Thanks a lot. I should have known better than to open a message with that subject. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 31 18:19:26 2015 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 01:19:26 +0100 Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: <9d7b142be301155821d9e0b1f161b664@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> To my most favorite 'off-topic list', all of you guys have a Happy and good new year. >From the Netherlands as we say "Gelukkig Nieuwjaar". -Rik From ik at yvanj.me Thu Dec 31 18:29:58 2015 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2016 00:29:58 +0000 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <9d7b142be301155821d9e0b1f161b664@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> References: <9d7b142be301155821d9e0b1f161b664@smtp-cloud3.xs4all.net> Message-ID: Same from here, different accent and a time zone away - "ne gelukkige nieuwjaar"! Y. On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 12:19 AM Rik Bos wrote: > To my most favorite 'off-topic list', all of you guys have a Happy and > good new year. > > From the Netherlands as we say "Gelukkig Nieuwjaar". > > -Rik From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Dec 31 18:39:23 2015 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 00:39:23 +0000 Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> A very Happy New Year to all the denizens of Classiccmp, and especially to Jay: thank you for another year of stewardship! -- Pete From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 19:06:54 2015 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 20:06:54 -0500 Subject: Happy New Year Message-ID: There seems to be in this world a hungering for what?s new: witness the gazillion smart phones sold; untold number of iPads(tablets) and their ilk; and plug-n-play computers. What seems to be forgotten is what came before; what interests us ? vintage/classic computers. Whether in the grand scheme of things it really matters whether we call it classic computing, this website?s name protected by copyright(internet ?laws?), retro-computing; vintage computing; golden-age computing or just plain old-computing era, nevertheless helps us to immeasurably enjoy our hobby. And yet there is a hunger, maybe less so for old computers as historical oddities don?t seem to attract a large following, for what came before. The new year hopefully expands our community: wishing all classic computer enthusiasts a wonderful New Year?s and all your wishes come true in 2016. Happy computing. Murray :) From jws at jwsss.com Thu Dec 31 20:54:16 2015 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:54:16 -0800 Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> Some people are waiting for the nuts to quit filing theaters. Please don't discuss w/o a warning as Al placed on the line (or if someone else did, I've not gotten that message). It is ill mannered at best. Happy New Year, don't mess up the movie for someone. On 12/31/2015 1:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 12/31/15 3:10 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Hi >> Went to Starwars last night. > > Thanks a lot. > > I should have known better than to open a message with that subject. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 31 20:57:20 2015 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 18:57:20 -0800 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> On 12/31/2015 04:39 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > A very Happy New Year to all the denizens of Classiccmp, and > especially to Jay: thank you for another year of stewardship! Allow me to second both sentiments, particularly the second. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 31 21:10:00 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 19:10:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, jwsmobile wrote: > Some people are waiting for the nuts to quit filing theaters. Please don't > discuss w/o a warning as Al placed on the line (or if someone else did, I've > not gotten that message). > It is ill mannered at best. OK But, I probably won't see it for a few years, until it reaches TV. Theater captioning is rarely adequate) One quick [non-spoiler?] question: Is it a remake? Or is it another in the "series"? (if so, earlier? later?) I've seen some lousy remakes of good movies, and then the original is virtually never seen again. OTOH, there have been SOME OK remakes that were better than mediocre movies they were based on. I just wish that remakes would have some sort of designation in the title that makes the original and the remake differentiable by more than copyright date. When is the "Casablanca" remake due out? From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Dec 31 21:16:41 2015 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 21:16:41 -0600 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> Message-ID: HNY classiccmp! And a Big Thanks to Jay for another year of service to the community! =P On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12/31/2015 04:39 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> A very Happy New Year to all the denizens of Classiccmp, and >> especially to Jay: thank you for another year of stewardship! >> > > Allow me to second both sentiments, particularly the second. > > --Chuck > > > > > From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 31 21:21:03 2015 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 22:21:03 -0500 Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. In-Reply-To: References: <56850D30.40503@btinternet.com> <56859973.4010207@bitsavers.org> <5685EA58.7060103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20160101032102.GA22064@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, jwsmobile wrote: > >Some people are waiting for the nuts to quit filing theaters. Please don't > >discuss w/o a warning as Al placed on the line (or if someone else did, > >I've not gotten that message). > >It is ill mannered at best. > > OK > But, I probably won't see it for a few years, until it reaches TV. > Theater captioning is rarely adequate) > > One quick [non-spoiler?] question: Is it a remake? Or is it another in > the "series"? (if so, earlier? later?) Sequel, later in the series (30 years after the events in Return of the Jedi). -spc (Amongst friends, all of whom are Star Wars fans, there are mixed reviews ... ) From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Dec 31 21:20:10 2015 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 03:20:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [SPOILERS] Re: Targeting Computers in X wing fighters. References: <1401165632.4431048.1451618410040.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1401165632.4431048.1451618410040.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> On Thu, 12/31/15, Fred Cisin wrote: > One quick [non-spoiler?] question:? Is it a remake?? Or is it > another in the "series"?? (if so, earlier? later?) It's in the series, specifically Episode 7, taking place sometime after Revenge of the Jedi. BLS From isking at uw.edu Thu Dec 31 21:39:53 2015 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 19:39:53 -0800 Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> Message-ID: I'll put it another way: praises to Jay for putting up with this bunch of nut-jobs (self included). :-) Happy New Year to all, may you find a PDP-6 in your neighbor's barn. -- Ian On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 7:16 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > HNY classiccmp! And a Big Thanks to Jay for another year of service to the > community! =P > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 8:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 12/31/2015 04:39 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > >> A very Happy New Year to all the denizens of Classiccmp, and > >> especially to Jay: thank you for another year of stewardship! > >> > > > > Allow me to second both sentiments, particularly the second. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 31 21:58:46 2015 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 19:58:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy New Year In-Reply-To: References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, Ian S. King wrote: > I'll put it another way: praises to Jay for putting up with this bunch of > nut-jobs (self included). :-) Happy New Year to all, may you find a PDP-6 > in your neighbor's barn. -- Ian May the computer that your neighbor brings to you, have a full set of spares, manuals, schematics, software, and source code. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Dec 31 21:59:16 2015 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 19:59:16 -0800 Subject: Happy New Year References: <5685CABB.4040507@dunnington.plus.com> <5685EB10.4030305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C17029EF8@mail.bensene.com> > I'll put it another way: praises to Jay for putting up with this bunch of nut-jobs > (self included). :-) Happy New Year to all, may you find a PDP-6 in your > neighbor's barn. -- Ian > I echo Ian's sentiments -- Jay deserves so much praise all he does for the Classic Computer community. While I'd love to find a PDP-6...I'd certainly settle for a KA-10. Now /that/ would make for an amazing New Year. Wishing all of the Classic Computer community health, peace, and great finds over the coming year. -Rick