From g-wright at att.net Fri Feb 1 00:38:21 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for Dec M7555 and M8061 cards Message-ID: <1359700701.12576.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Anyone have a stash of either card. Have a few micro vax machines that are missing the M7555 and I need a couple of the M8061's for my micro PDP11's Also could use a 7140 Power supply or boards. seems like every few years one of my 11/24or44's machines has PS problems. Thanks, Jerry From g-wright at att.net Fri Feb 1 00:42:02 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:42:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 310 computer case. Message-ID: <1359700922.20632.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? Free + shipping - Jerry From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 01:22:36 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:22:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 310 computer case. Message-ID: <1359703356.41336.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Multibus box - I'll take it. Ships to 08005 probably. ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:42 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: >I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? > >Free + shipping > >- Jerry From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 01:31:32 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:31:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: a test was Re: Intel 310 computer case. Message-ID: <1359703892.38253.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? > >Free + shipping > >- Jerry This is only a test... From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Feb 1 11:54:29 2013 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:54:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP 3.5 discs I wonder inf in the HP 150 manual? Message-ID: <5619f.59c544ad.3e3d5b54@aol.com> HP 3.5 discs I wonder if in the HP 150 manual? Back when we sold the things .... I still have a maint manual for the 150... offlist mail me if you still have questions and I will dig it up. Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC www.smecc.org In a message dated 2/1/2013 10:25:55 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: Message: 5 Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:50:14 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for Appendix to HP 3.5" disc drive service manual (disc commands) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > I was interested to read about the differences between the 9121 and > 82901 commands, eg the 9121 supports a superset of the 82901 commands > and so should be fully backwards compatible. One difference I have noted I beleive it was specifically designed to be. It was intended that any systme that supported the 82901 could also use the 9121, no matter waht assumptions it made. In this repsect, the respose to the standard idenmtification coammends is the same, there is one extended command that returns a differnet value o nthe 2 drives so it is possible to tell them apart, but a ssytsem designed fo the 82901 wouldn't use that command. Also the total numebr of sectors per disk is the same -- IIRC the 82901 is double-sided 35 cylidner and the 9121 is single sided 70 cylinder. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Feb 1 12:17:59 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 12:17:59 -0600 Subject: Need help with PDP-8/A, VTServer & PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E324CAC-8E1C-4F18-BD36-5B0DC7FD78B2@centurytel.net> On Feb 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: > Message-ID: <510AD86B.8020007 at dunnington.plus.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 31/01/2013 05:37, Charles wrote: >> Anyhow, I figure that the OS/8 pack might have become corrupted, so I >> attempted to reload it on my 11/23+ system (which IS working and >> passing >> memory tests) using VTserver, which is how I created it the first >> time. >> However, since I last successfully did it, I've upgraded the 11/23+ >> boot >> ROMs to the KDF11B-BH V1.0. This is the only hardware change. Not >> sure >> if that has anything to do with the problem > >> Do I need to go back to the original boot ROM in order to use >> VTserver >> (i.e. is there some change made to ODT that is messing things up?) > > The boot ROMs have no bearing on ODT, which is in the microcode in the > KDF11 itself. So you can eliminate at least one area of concern. > What > boot ROMs did you have before? Were they 2K ones (11/23+) or 8K ones > (microPDP-11/23)? Have you changed any jumpers during the upgrade? > > -- > Pete The original ones (-339, -340) are 2716 EPROMs (2k). The only jumper changed was the J23-24 which the manual says to set for 8K proms, and J23-22 for 2k. I put the old ones back in (and set the jumper accordingly) and the transfer proceeded normally. For whatever reason the new ones do not like VTserver. Incidentally, the problem with the 8/A & RL02 turned out to be simply a bad ribbon cable connection (my fault) where the IDC connector plugs into the RL8A card. The previous OS/8 pack boots and runs normally too... now I can get back to playing Lunar Lander in FOCAL on the Teletype, and ADVENT :) -Charles From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 15:10:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 13:10:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for Dec M7555 and M8061 cards Message-ID: <1359753027.82194.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:38 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: >Anyone have a stash of either card. Have a few >micro vax machines that are missing the M7555 >and I need a couple of the M8061's for my micro >PDP11's > >Also could use a 7140 Power supply or boards. >seems like every few years one of my 11/24or44's >machines has PS problems. > > > Thanks, Jerry > I don't have a clue what you're looking for, but I have a MVax parts machine. Maybe that has what you're looking for... From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 15:41:11 2013 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 15:41:11 -0600 Subject: looking for Dec M7555 and M8061 cards In-Reply-To: <1359700701.12576.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1359700701.12576.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Jerry, I think the H7140 came in a -AA, and a -CA. One might have been for an expansion box. The main parts should be the same. I have a few buried here and will try to look at them over the weekend. I'll see if I have either of the boards also. Thanks, Paul On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:38 AM, Jerry Wright wrote: > Anyone have a stash of either card. Have a few > micro vax machines that are missing the M7555 > and I need a couple of the M8061's for my micro > PDP11's > > Also could use a 7140 Power supply or boards. > seems like every few years one of my 11/24or44's > machines has PS problems. > > > Thanks, Jerry > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 1 15:42:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 21:42:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 3.5 discs I wonder inf in the HP 150 manual? In-Reply-To: <5619f.59c544ad.3e3d5b54@aol.com> from "COURYHOUSE@aol.com" at Feb 1, 13 12:54:29 pm Message-ID: > > HP 3.5 discs I wonder if in the HP 150 manual? > Back when we sold the things .... I still have a maint manual for the > 150... offlist mail me if you still have questions and I will dig it up. > Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC www.smecc.org The service manaul for the HP15 0is on the Australian museum site and contains very little useful infromation. I ahve the ful lTechnical Reference for the HP150, with the HP150-II siplement. This has a lot of useful information in it (like scheamtics), but almost nothign o nthe disks. It does give the basic physcal format for varios disks, but nothing on the disk drive command sets, etc. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 1 16:49:34 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 22:49:34 -0000 Subject: looking for Dec M7555 and M8061 cards In-Reply-To: References: <1359700701.12576.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011201ce00ce$69a5ce60$3cf16b20$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: 01 February 2013 21:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: looking for Dec M7555 and M8061 cards > > Hi Jerry, > > I think the H7140 came in a -AA, and a -CA. One might have been for an > expansion box. The main parts should be the same. I have a few buried here > and will try to look at them over the weekend. I'll see if I have either of the > boards also. > I have a faulty H7140 from an 11/24 that I would like to sort out too, all my repair attempts to date have failed. I think it is just one of the boards that is at fault (the small Bias and Interface board). If you have something let me know, but I am in the UK so if you are in the US then shipping a whole PSU is going to cost way too much, but the problem board is likely to be doable. Regards Rob From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 19:55:26 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 17:55:26 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> I have no clue if these are worth saving but, a few are ending tonight with no bids and sounds like they go in the trash next. http://www.ebay.com/sch/bradley1coh/m.html?item=221181974488&ViewItem=&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 The seller is bradley1coh in case I screw up that link too. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 1 21:38:36 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:38:36 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> On 2/1/13 5:55 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have no clue if these are worth saving but, a few are ending tonight with no bids and sounds like they go in the trash next. > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/bradley1coh/m.html?item=221181974488&ViewItem=&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 > > The seller is bradley1coh in case I screw up that link too. > > To let people know.. I have been buying these, scanning them, and putting them on bitsavers and have had the same dick running them up to $20-$25 each time in the last second. If I DON'T do this, they will disappear in that black hole of the "mainframe collector" I don't know who this prick is, but I'm getting REALLY sick of this. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 21:50:10 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:50:10 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> On 2/1/2013 7:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/1/13 5:55 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I have no clue if these are worth saving but, a few are ending >> tonight with no bids and sounds like they go in the trash next. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/sch/bradley1coh/m.html?item=221181974488&ViewItem=&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 >> >> >> The seller is bradley1coh in case I screw up that link too. >> >> > > > > To let people know.. > > I have been buying these, scanning them, and putting them on bitsavers > and have had the same dick running them up to $20-$25 each time in the > last second. > > If I DON'T do this, they will disappear in that black hole of the > "mainframe collector" > > I don't know who this prick is, but I'm getting REALLY sick of this. > > > > It wasn't me. I just posted this because a bunch of them showed up on http://www.lastminute-auction.com/index.php?t=11 and the seller seemed to be saying sending them to the trash was next. Has anyone thought about maybe contacting him directly ? He does seem to want them to be saved more than anything else. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 21:50:47 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 19:50:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: wanted: German translation of magazine article Message-ID: <1359777047.12828.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 10:34 AM PST Stefan Skoglund wrote: >Considering how badly google translates german to swedish, I THINK NOT >! Yeah. Im going to begin informally studying German soon. I have a Swedish cd too. Ill never forget how to say fish in Swedish. This much I can tell you. Lathe in German is drehbank I think. Watch maker is uhrmacher. I love German machinery. From g-wright at att.net Fri Feb 1 22:04:55 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 20:04:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 310 computer case. In-Reply-To: <1359703356.41336.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1359703356.41336.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1359777895.26982.YahooMailRC@web181401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Tofu To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thu, January 31, 2013 11:22:59 PM Subject: Re: Intel 310 computer case. Multibus box - I'll take it. Ships to 08005 probably. Chris this is real bare. has a limited Multibus back plane. No much bigger than a PC. no Power supply. I might have larger Mulibus box here if that would be better. ??? I see your other reply. The M7555 is the disk controller for the Microvax. You should see the number on the colored pull. It has a large ribbon cable connection on the outward end. - Jerry ------------------------------ On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:42 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: >I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? > >Free + shipping > >- Jerry From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 22:19:40 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 22:19:40 -0600 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> Message-ID: > It wasn't me. I just posted this because a bunch of them showed up on http://www.lastminute-auction.com/index.php?t=11 and the seller seemed to be saying sending them to the trash was next. Has anyone thought about maybe contacting him directly ? He does seem to want them to be saved more than anything else. I have purchased a lot of docs from this seller over the last year or so. I have inquired about bulk purchases, etc. but with no results. I try to save what I can, usually items without bids since I know Al is purchasing from him as well. (I haven't bid on anything of his in a couple months, at least, so I'm not the one driving the prices up.) jht From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 1 22:27:53 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 20:27:53 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <510C95C9.4040007@bitsavers.org> On 2/1/13 8:19 PM, Jason T wrote: > I have inquired about bulk purchases, etc. but with no results. I have tried as well. I've even offered to buy them at the going price just to get this over with. As you say, the stuff has been dribbling out for over a year. FWIW, because of the price I'm down to pretty much just buying the IBM program logic manuals now, which I have never seen anywhere else. CHM only had a couple. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 22:28:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 20:28:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 310 computer case. Message-ID: <1359779292.62268.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Jerry - I WANT THAT BOX.LOL LOL LOL In German - Der friggin boxen must becomen meinen If you'll send it to.me, I'll take it. I don't know what else you have . Perhaps that is also of interest. Where are you located? And please don't get offended at my humor. I'm a sick man... ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 8:04 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: Me > > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Chris Tofu >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thu, January 31, 2013 11:22:59 PM >Subject: Re: Intel 310 computer case. > > >Multibus box - I'll take it. Ships to 08005 probably. > >Chris this is real bare. has a limited Multibus back plane. >No much bigger than a PC. no Power supply. I might have >larger Mulibus box here if that would be better. ??? > >I see your other reply. The M7555 is the disk controller >for the Microvax. You should see the number on the >colored pull. It has a large ribbon cable connection >on the outward end. > >- Jerry > >------------------------------ >On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:42 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: > >>I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? >> >>Free + shipping >> >>- Jerry From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 1 22:32:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 20:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intel 310 computer case. Message-ID: <1359779535.38994.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Regarding microvax parts, you can have whatever you want. Just telll me where it is precisely, with line drawings if. Necessary. I know absolutely nuthink about DEC. ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 8:04 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: > > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: Chris Tofu >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Thu, January 31, 2013 11:22:59 PM >Subject: Re: Intel 310 computer case. > > >Multibus box - I'll take it. Ships to 08005 probably. > >Chris this is real bare. has a limited Multibus back plane. >No much bigger than a PC. no Power supply. I might have >larger Mulibus box here if that would be better. ??? > >I see your other reply. The M7555 is the disk controller >for the Microvax. You should see the number on the >colored pull. It has a large ribbon cable connection >on the outward end. > >- Jerry > >------------------------------ >On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 10:42 PM PST Jerry Wright wrote: > >>I have a good empty case. any one need one ?? >> >>Free + shipping >> >>- Jerry From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 1 23:22:21 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 21:22:21 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510C95C9.4040007@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> <510C95C9.4040007@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <510CA28D.6020503@gmail.com> On 2/1/2013 8:27 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/1/13 8:19 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> I have inquired about bulk purchases, etc. but with no results. > > I have tried as well. I've even offered to buy them at the going price > just > to get this over with. As you say, the stuff has been dribbling out > for over > a year. FWIW, because of the price I'm down to pretty much just buying > the > IBM program logic manuals now, which I have never seen anywhere else. CHM > only had a couple. > > > Did you try sending him an email from the adress on the paypal transaction rather than an ebay message ? Sometimes people don't like to answer ebay messages about buying stuff outside of ebay and ebay has gotten draconian about filtering ebay messages now. All email address get filtered out of ebay messages now and the most innocent words will trigger ebay to refuse allow a message to be sent saying it may suggest a deal outside of ebay. From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 01:44:45 2013 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 23:44:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? In-Reply-To: <1359790604.65581.YahooMailClassic@web122201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1359791085.34049.YahooMailClassic@web122202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > From: Robert Ferguson > Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, January 31, 2013, 3:07 PM > > Hi folks, > > I'm having intermittent problems with my Superpet. It will > run fine for some time, but then will "glitch" for a couple > of seconds (including video distortion), and then hang. > > Having done a bit of digging, I suspect that the flyback > transformer is arcing internally. The video board is the one > in this schematic (http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/s...032/321448.gif). > > I can hear the arcing sound from area of the transformer > when the glitch occurs, and I see no obvious external > indications of anything sparking or shorting. I have looked > at the voltages at the various test points noted on the > video board schematic during normal operation, and they all > appear OK. > > > Thanks for any help anyone can provide. > > Rob Ferguson > > I would say to use an oscilloscope to monitor the circuit *driving* the flyback transformer. I had an issue on a Compucolor II where this signal would periodically glitch, which changed the frequency, and cause the flyback to over-voltage and spark every time. The signal would glitch whether the flyback was plugged in or not. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 2 03:32:30 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 22:32:30 +1300 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube Message-ID: For those who might be interested, a freshly-minted YouTube video this time on another bastion of British retro-computing, my iconic ZX-Spectrum. http://youtu.be/cCqXqYRlQt0 Cheers Terry (Tez) From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 03:49:26 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 03:49:26 -0600 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510CA28D.6020503@gmail.com> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> <510C8CF2.1040008@gmail.com> <510C95C9.4040007@bitsavers.org> <510CA28D.6020503@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 11:22 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Did you try sending him an email from the adress on the paypal transaction > rather than an ebay message ? Sometimes people don't like to answer ebay > messages about buying stuff outside of ebay and ebay has gotten draconian > about filtering ebay messages now. All email address get filtered out of > ebay messages now and the most innocent words will trigger ebay to refuse > allow a message to be sent saying it may suggest a deal outside of ebay. Yeah, I've communicated with him successfully about the individual purchases and other topics. It's good to hear Al is picking up unique/unseen docs, even to CHM. It does make me wonder who this person is. I know his name, which I wouldn't repeat here without his permission, but not what significance in the industry he might have had. He's got a wide variety of docs (I've bought a lot of DEC and IBM docs as well as some for more obscure marques like GE and Singer.) Maybe he was in sales for multiple decades. Whoever he is, I'm glad he saved his materials. -- jht From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Feb 2 10:58:54 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:58:54 +0100 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <510D45CE.7070902@update.uu.se> On 02/02/2013 04:38 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/1/13 5:55 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I have no clue if these are worth saving but, a few are ending >> tonight with no bids and sounds like they go in the trash next. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/sch/bradley1coh/m.html?item=221181974488&ViewItem=&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 >> >> >> The seller is bradley1coh in case I screw up that link too. >> >> > > > > To let people know.. > > I have been buying these, scanning them, and putting them on bitsavers > and have had the same dick running them up to $20-$25 each time in the > last second. > > If I DON'T do this, they will disappear in that black hole of the > "mainframe collector" > > I don't know who this prick is, but I'm getting REALLY sick of this. > > > > > > > I sometimes see documentation on ebay that seem rare to me (such as internal DEC communication or drafts) and think "this is something for Al". In those cases, do you want a link? Regards, Pontus. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Feb 1 05:03:18 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 11:03:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? Message-ID: <01OPOBFSFD4I006F6H@beyondthepale.ie> > > I'm having intermittent problems with my Superpet. It will run fine for some > time, but then will "glitch" for a couple of seconds (including video > distortion), and then hang. > > Having done a bit of digging, I suspect that the flyback transformer is > arcing internally. The video board is the one in this schematic > (http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/s...032/321448.gif). > The link is mangled. I think it should be: http://zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/8032/321448.gif > > I can hear the arcing sound from area of the transformer when the glitch > occurs, and I see no obvious external indications of anything sparking or > shorting. I have looked at the voltages at the various test points noted > on the video board schematic during normal operation, and they all appear OK. > > I'm sort of stuck at this point. Should I replace the flyback? The part > number is 2432641AL 25M, and it's T721 on the board; does anyone know of > an available equivalent? > I'm not familiar with the the Superpet but I have had similar faults in other equipment which were caused by failed joints on the PCB. If the problem happens reasonably frequently, one approach is to darken the room and watch the underside of the PCB for little sparks. If it doesn't happen that frequently, another approach is to try tapping the PCB at various points with a well insulated implement such as a plastic ruler or other tool to see if the fault can be mechanically provoked. Do not overlook the possibility of arcing at the EHT connector on the CRT or on the CRT base. I would hate to end up replacing a major component and finding that the problem was still there. > > Alternatively, could this behaviour be caused by a bad electrolytic > capacitor? I'm specifically suspicious of C754 (47uF/250V), but my knowledge > of CRT theory is not deep, and I lack a good way to test the capacitor in > circuit. > It's not the sort of thing I'd suspect an electrolytic capacitor of but I suppose it is possible. Usually when they are stressed enough to make noise, there are visible signs of stress too. An oscilloscope connected between its negative terminal and ground it would probably show a significant increase in ripple or reduction in voltage when the problem happens if the capacitor is at fault. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org Fri Feb 1 11:34:51 2013 From: jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org) Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 12:34:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: $4,000 for an Apple II ? Message-ID: <1359740091.515048@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Steven Hirsch wrote .. > On Wed, 30 Jan 2013, mc68010 wrote: > > > I can't believe how crazy the Apple thing has got. One of Sellam's Apple II > > just sold for almost $4k. Wow. > > Rev. 0 Apple ][s with low serial numbers are being sought after. Another > unit went for > $5k the other week, but the buyer apparently reneged. If > that was one of Sellam's, it's all the more ammunition for his legal > action. > > I can accept that there may be cases where a landlord can auction items > left on premises under a default, but I'm not aware of any situation where > they are allowed to blindly profit from the action. > > Steve > > > -- It's not just an Apple thing. A TI-99/8 just went for $3240 on Ebay. It seems this was the second one over $3000 in the last 6 mos., so apparently it's not a fluke. Prices on vintage stuff generally seem to be on an up-cycle, apparently unlike the value of the time and labor spent assembling and protecting collections of historical, cultural, or economic significance. Tell it to the vandals in Timbuktu, maybe. I'm just catching up on the list after being too busy to read it the last couple of months, and I'm still digesting Sellam's situation. Been through some similar circumstances, myself, and on the other hand, I do some work for an asset management co. that handles a lot of rentals, and to my intense dislike, property left behind after sadly , no matter what you do, with owners breathing down your neck, the inevitable evictions, property we go out of the way to have the tenant come get. But they don't. Much less pay the back rent. So maybe I have a somewhat unique perspective on the matter. I'm not sure, however, that I could remain either temperate or coherent about it, so I'm going to refrain from comment just now. I can tell, though, when failure to pay rent on a timely basis is a thinly veiled pretext for theft. Good luck, Sellam. jbdigriz From rob at bitscience.ca Fri Feb 1 16:54:00 2013 From: rob at bitscience.ca (Robert Ferguson) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 14:54:00 -0800 Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? Message-ID: <2BA26362-1D42-4AB7-A4BF-4DF523BF6246@bitscience.ca> Thanks for the suggestions. I've looked for visible arcs as carefully as I can, and have been unable to see any. I've cleaned and resoldered the connections to the transformer, and removed and cleaned the anode connection to the CRT. I don't know if you can remove the anode connection at the flyback end, so I haven't fiddled with that. Is it reasonable to assume at this point that the arc is *inside* the flyback cover? Is it possible that a component failure outside the transformer could cause arcing in the flyback, or does it mean that the flyback itself is at fault? The flyback transformer appears to be unobtainium (although if someone knows different, I'd love to hear about it). I guess I'm in the market for a PET video board.... Thanks again, Rob From jeffj at panix.com Fri Feb 1 20:42:36 2013 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2013 21:42:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: networking via SCSI? Message-ID: Long ago when SCSI was young and just an 8 bit parallel bus, Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. Did anyone else do that? A fellow contacted me with this problem: I have a couple of Kurzweil synthesizers (/samplers/sequencers): K2000RS and K2600X . They have integrated floppy and SCSI HDDs for storing configuration, composition and audio sample data. They're actually 68000 CPUs with a Kurzweil OS, managing IO among peripherals (keys, SCSI, display LCD, MIDI, etc) and several proprietary DSPs. But there's no serial/network/etc IO. I'm interested in trying to use their SCSI to interface them with a (Linux) PC somehow. Any ideas? Like maybe some webpages describing projects that have networked older (preferably 68xxx) CPUs over their shared SCSI bus. My understanding is that a Kurzweil and a Mac were sometimes configured each as a SCSI device on the same SCSI bus as the HDD, and either host could alternate accessing the HDD once the other host was no longer issuing potentially conflicting SCSI commands to the HDD. I don't see how just read commands could conflict, but perhaps the HDD wasn't able to multiplex commands targeting different hosts in any overlap. But evidently people were transferring samples between Kurzweil and Mac this way. [I replied privately about the problem of multiple machines sharing a drive even if one is read-only] any clues or hints? thanks -- jeff jonas From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 11:54:33 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 15:54:33 -0200 Subject: networking via SCSI? References: Message-ID: > I'm interested in trying to use their SCSI > to interface them with a (Linux) PC somehow. > Any ideas? Like maybe some webpages > describing projects that have networked older > (preferably 68xxx) CPUs over their shared SCSI bus. As far as I remember, you can have multiple hosts on line, if they are not supplying current to the active terminators, and uses different SCSI IDs... From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 2 12:11:41 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 10:11:41 -0800 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: <510D45CE.7070902@update.uu.se> References: <50E75B16.3000809@bitsavers.org> <50E9CEE7.90103@sbcglobal.net> <510C720E.4030903@gmail.com> <510C8A3C.3030707@bitsavers.org> <510D45CE.7070902@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <510D56DD.20100@bitsavers.org> On 2/2/13 8:58 AM, Pontus wrote: > I sometimes see documentation on ebay that seem rare to me (such as internal DEC communication or drafts) and think "this is something for Al". In those cases, do you want a link? > Thanks, but I have to be very selective now about what I'm spending money on. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 2 12:11:54 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:11:54 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > Long ago when SCSI was young > and just an 8 bit parallel bus, > Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus > for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. > > Did anyone else do that? One used to be able to do it with Suns, in the Good Ol' Days. I've not done it myself but have seen it done. It was really quite neat. > A fellow contacted me with this problem: > > I have a couple of Kurzweil synthesizers (/samplers/sequencers): > K2000RS and K2600X . They have integrated floppy and SCSI HDDs > for storing configuration, composition and audio sample data. > They're actually 68000 CPUs with a Kurzweil OS, > managing IO among peripherals > (keys, SCSI, display LCD, MIDI, etc) and several proprietary DSPs. > But there's no serial/network/etc IO. > I'm interested in trying to use their SCSI > to interface them with a (Linux) PC somehow. > Any ideas? Like maybe some webpages > describing projects that have networked older > (preferably 68xxx) CPUs over their shared SCSI bus. > > My understanding is that a Kurzweil and a Mac were sometimes configured > each as a SCSI device on the same SCSI bus as the HDD, > and either host could alternate accessing the HDD > once the other host was no longer issuing > potentially conflicting SCSI commands to the HDD. > I don't see how just read commands could conflict, > but perhaps the HDD wasn't able to multiplex commands > targeting different hosts in any overlap. > But evidently people were transferring samples > between Kurzweil and Mac this way. Read commands could conflict in the simple case of a host assuming it has exclusive control of the bus. I don't believe any reasonable SCSI host adapter chips would behave that way, but some early SCSI host adapters were implemented using discrete logic or with a simple interface that needs lots of OS handholding (like the NCR 5380) and high-level interactions are done in the driver. Unless you want to dig deeply into the Kurzweil firmware, I don't really see this working out, though. This is assuming you don't have any documentation on how the Mac interacts with the synthesizer or the on-disk formats in use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 12:36:33 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 18:36:33 +0000 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. Message-ID: <1123754078-1359830192-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1521175217-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Are you able to use the chm budget at least or perhaps some grant? From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 2 13:25:17 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 19:25:17 -0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FAE641EBDAA419DA99ADB94B2A42C16@ANTONIOPC> Jeff Jonas [jeffj at panix.com] wrote: > Long ago when SCSI was young > and just an 8 bit parallel bus, > Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus > for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. > > Did anyone else do that? I don't remember the details but I'm fairly sure you could run OpenVMS clusters over SCSI at some point. I don't recall whether this was "just experimental" or whether it was actually supported in some configurations. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 2 13:43:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 19:43:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? In-Reply-To: <2BA26362-1D42-4AB7-A4BF-4DF523BF6246@bitscience.ca> from "Robert Ferguson" at Feb 1, 13 02:54:00 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for the suggestions. > > I've looked for visible arcs as carefully as I can, and have been > unable to see any. I've cleaned and resoldered the connections to the > transformer, and removed and cleaned the anode connection to the CRT. I > don't know if you can remove the anode connection at the flyback end, so > I haven't fiddled with that. Normall yyou can't disconnect the EHT (high voltage, whatever) wire at the flyback transfoerm end. It's soldered to the EHT rectifier diode whigh is encapsulated i nthe potting compound opf the flyback. > > Is it reasonable to assume at this point that the arc is *inside* the > flyback cover? Is it possible that a component failure outside the It's certainl;y poissible for the flyback transformer to break down internally in thus start sparking. At this poiint, I might think that was quite likely. > transformer could cause arcing in the flyback, or does it mean that the > flyback itself is at fault? What is certainly possible is for components on the video board to damage the flyback transofmer. Leaky diodes or capactiros can increase the load on the flyback and casue it to run hot. When I was at Bristol we had some VT100s that ate flyback transfomers, A new one would last for a few weeks at most. Replaceing the diodes on the video PCB got the flybacks to last for many years. I suspect an internmittant breakdown in any high voltage capacitors 9smoothign the first anode votlage, etc) could cause glitches. The votlagbe is less than the final anode voltage, but it's still around 800V in most monitors (sorry, I am not a PET expert). Some monitos had capacitors with built-in spark gaps to protect the circuitry in the event of a CRT flashover. These look like normal disk ceramic caps but have a 'bit' on top with a slot in it. THat's the cpark gap. If oyu have nay of those, cleam the spark gaps before worrying aboput flyback problems. They might be flashing over occasionally. > The flyback transformer appears to be unobtainium (although if someone > knows different, I'd love to hear about it). I guess I'm in the market > for a PET video board.... Somebody is goign to have to figure out how to make flyback transofmers. The model IC engine crowd make their own ignition cols and do vacuum impregnation, so it is _possible_ -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Feb 2 15:32:09 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:32:09 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510D85D9.3080401@verizon.net> On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > Long ago when SCSI was young > and just an 8 bit parallel bus, > Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus > for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. > > Did anyone else do that? No rare was the need for multiple loosely coupled Ampros. First the interface used by Ampro was a loose SCSI (pre SCSI spec!) And it could be used as a generalized bidirectional parallel bus or it could so SASI (sasi was the pre SCSI) and with the right code it could do slow SCSI (programmed IO). I used it to connect to a 3.5" fujitsu 45MB SCSI drive. Worked well lots of code needed the base drivers only did a very limited subset for use with the Adaptec SCSI to MFM bridge board or the ST225N. So there is no resemblence there to SCSI as we currently know it. > > A fellow contacted me with this problem: > > I have a couple of Kurzweil synthesizers (/samplers/sequencers): > K2000RS and K2600X . They have integrated floppy and SCSI HDDs > for storing configuration, composition and audio sample data. > They're actually 68000 CPUs with a Kurzweil OS, > managing IO among peripherals > (keys, SCSI, display LCD, MIDI, etc) and several proprietary DSPs. > But there's no serial/network/etc IO. > I'm interested in trying to use their SCSI > to interface them with a (Linux) PC somehow. > Any ideas? Like maybe some webpages > describing projects that have networked older > (preferably 68xxx) CPUs over their shared SCSI bus. > > My understanding is that a Kurzweil and a Mac were sometimes configured > each as a SCSI device on the same SCSI bus as the HDD, > and either host could alternate accessing the HDD > once the other host was no longer issuing > potentially conflicting SCSI commands to the HDD. > I don't see how just read commands could conflict, > but perhaps the HDD wasn't able to multiplex commands > targeting different hosts in any overlap. > But evidently people were transferring samples > between Kurzweil and Mac this way. > > [I replied privately about the problem > of multiple machines sharing a drive even if one is read-only] > > > any clues or hints? > Serious memory test here... All SCSI devices have an address including the host and the maximum was 8 total (0-7). Also the bus assumed only one controller so all other units were slaves that could do no more than assert ATN Early (that era) SCSI disks did not know who issued command as they were slaves. Further they were FIFO serial command structure with minimal if any command silo and the assumptuion that the command executed produced results that went back to the only host controller. Are you sure the bus was SCSI and not GPIB? GPIB was a multi talker, multi controller, multi-listener bus that allowed for up to 31 devices and was also a parallel 8bit bus. Allison > thanks > > -- jeff jonas > From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat Feb 2 15:56:56 2013 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 16:56:56 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <510D85D9.3080401@verizon.net> References: , <510D85D9.3080401@verizon.net> Message-ID: later scsi technologies allowed double the devices.if you google scsi networking you get this as a hit,a project called ipoverscsilooks reasonable From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 15:59:32 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 21:59:32 +0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <510D85D9.3080401@verizon.net> References: <510D85D9.3080401@verizon.net> Message-ID: <510D8C44.2020205@gmail.com> >> >> >> any clues or hints? >> > Serious memory test here... > > All SCSI devices have an address including the host and the maximum was 8 > total (0-7). The original Atari Host Controllers do not have an address. How they work I don't know, but they don't have an address. > Also the bus assumed only one controller so all other units were > slaves that could do no more than assert ATN > I am also pretty sure you could share disk between Ataris on the same BUS. These days with reserve/release we do it all the time... > Early (that era) SCSI disks did not know who issued command as they were > slaves. Further they were FIFO serial command structure with minimal if > any command silo and the assumptuion that the command executed > produced results that went back to the only host controller. > > Are you sure the bus was SCSI and not GPIB? GPIB was a multi talker, > multi controller, multi-listener bus that allowed for up to 31 devices > and was also a parallel 8bit bus. > > Allison >> thanks >> >> -- jeff jonas >> > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 2 19:11:32 2013 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 01:11:32 +0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/02/2013 18:11, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: >> Long ago when SCSI was young >> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >> >> Did anyone else do that? > > One used to be able to do it with Suns, in the Good Ol' Days. I've > not done it myself but have seen it done. It was really quite neat. A company called Lingenuity did the same with a product called SCSI Share, for Acorn computers, around 1989 or 1990. It allowed six computers to share a SCSI drive, which appeared as two partitions, one read-only for software and one read-write for shared files. Of course distances were limited by the SCSI bus, which meant you needed decent cables and all the devices more or less on the same tabletop. But I have seen it working on more than one occasion. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 2 19:41:58 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2013 17:41:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: networking via SCSI? Message-ID: <1359855718.44762.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Speaking of Ampro, does anyone have a later one, v40 or 80186, but in particular the pal chip and the means to read off the contents? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Feb 2 22:05:36 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:05:36 -0500 Subject: Wiki? What? Why? - Re: ADM-3A reminiscences In-Reply-To: <20130129061223.GA18294@dbit.dbit.com> References: <921CBCD735824B9096D06F00773D81E2@vl420mt> <51074B52.9070201@telegraphics.com.au> <20130129043254.GA17376@dbit.dbit.com> <51075D70.8090007@telegraphics.com.au> <20130129061223.GA18294@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <510DE210.3050405@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/01/13 1:12 AM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 12:26:08AM -0500, Toby Thain wrote: >>> (Assuming you don't count the :INFO system at MIT, which came much earlier.) >> >> Is it a wiki? > > Editable by anyone ... cross-machine links (over the network file system -- > I think it was called MLDEV?) ... what else would it need? It's hard to google for that! Sounds like it probably qualifies as a precursor. But then even more strongly does Xanadu (1960-). --Toby > > John Wilson > D Bit > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 3 09:45:53 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 10:45:53 -0500 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <003201ce0225$a5fd9cf0$f1f8d6d0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are ten (10) S-100 ConsoleIO PCBs and nine (9) S-100 LAVA PCBs still available http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Console%20IO%20Board/Console%20 IO%20Board.htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm These PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Feb 3 13:45:46 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:45:46 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? Message-ID: <7E1278E1-BA46-45AD-99F6-FB38443AC1A0@centurytel.net> I'm trying to find a manual detailing the operation of an RL02 under OS/8. The Bitsavers archive only has manuals new enough through the RL01. Can someone point me to the proper documentation? Meanwhile, although several years ago I did manage to build an OS/8 system with two RL02's on SIMH and transfer that disk image to an RL02 pack, and BUILD shows the appropriate device names, when the second drive (1) is accessed, the data actually comes from the boot drive (0). Just now getting around to playing with it again. Version: OS/8 KBM V3T, CCL V3E. The relevant portion of the BUILD printout: (I didn't have enough handlers to add the "leftover" E drives anyway) R2SY: *SYS R20A RL20: *R2A0 *R2B0 *R2C0 *R2D0 RL21: *R2A1 *R2B1 *R2C1 *R2D1 DSK=RL20:R2A0 I can even unload the heads on Drive 1 and ask for a DIR of its logical drives, and not only does OS/8 not hang or at least give a "NOT FOUND" error, it gives me the data from the corresponding logical drives on Drive 0! ASSigning DSK to the other drive doesn't make any difference... What am I doing wrong? thanks Charles From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 3 15:14:00 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:14:00 -0800 Subject: Commodore Superpet video problem -- ideas? In-Reply-To: <2BA26362-1D42-4AB7-A4BF-4DF523BF6246@bitscience.ca> References: <2BA26362-1D42-4AB7-A4BF-4DF523BF6246@bitscience.ca> Message-ID: On 2013 Feb 1, at 2:54 PM, Robert Ferguson wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions. > > I've looked for visible arcs as carefully as I can, and have been > unable to see any. I've cleaned and resoldered the connections to > the transformer, and removed and cleaned the anode connection to > the CRT. I don't know if you can remove the anode connection at the > flyback end, so I haven't fiddled with that. > > Is it reasonable to assume at this point that the arc is *inside* > the flyback cover? Is it possible that a component failure outside > the transformer could cause arcing in the flyback, or does it mean > that the flyback itself is at fault? > > The flyback transformer appears to be unobtainium (although if > someone knows different, I'd love to hear about it). I guess I'm in > the market for a PET video board.... Rob, I have a 4032 with logic problems, that I have yet to get around to fixing. (I did some diagnosis years ago and found how the problem was arising, but still a fair bit of remaining work to repair it, although it could be a fun task). Seems a shame to scrap one, but if the particular flyback is that difficult to come by, perhaps it's time to make one good machine out of the two. Fortuitously, I'm in the Vancouver area, going from your website it looks like you are too. I'll have to open the 4032 to confirm that it uses the same video board as you need. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Feb 3 15:40:06 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:40:06 -0800 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> On Feb 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 02/02/2013 18:11, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: >>> Long ago when SCSI was young >>> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >>> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >>> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >>> >>> Did anyone else do that? >> >> One used to be able to do it with Suns, in the Good Ol' Days. I've >> not done it myself but have seen it done. It was really quite neat. > > A company called Lingenuity did the same with a product called SCSI > Share, for Acorn computers, around 1989 or 1990. It allowed six > computers to share a SCSI drive, which appeared as two partitions, one > read-only for software and one read-write for shared files. Of course > distances were limited by the SCSI bus, which meant you needed decent > cables and all the devices more or less on the same tabletop. But I > have seen it working on more than one occasion. > Did this while I was at IBM. We typically had demos of 2-3 systems accessing a number of shared disks. It's called multi-initiator mode. Though it was supposed to work (as per spec), not all devices were great at having multiple initiators (hosts) on the same bus. Slightly different, Adaptec did produce a device called a "Nodem" which was a SCSI device that connected to ethernet. Was pretty cool in concept. However, I spent a lot of time working with Adaptec and it has some serious bugs that they could never quite work out. The biggest was they had a minimum interpacket time in order to receive an ethernet packet. Unfortunately, the Nodem's interpacket time was longer than the minimum interpacket time on ethernet. This resulted in some cases of missed packets. :-( TTFN - Guy From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Feb 3 20:05:00 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 21:05:00 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: <7E1278E1-BA46-45AD-99F6-FB38443AC1A0@centurytel.net> References: <7E1278E1-BA46-45AD-99F6-FB38443AC1A0@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <201302040205.r14252eA028136@rickmurphy.net> At 02:45 PM 2/3/2013, Charles wrote: >I can even unload the heads on Drive 1 and ask for a DIR of its >logical drives, and not only does OS/8 not hang or at least give a >"NOT FOUND" error, it gives me the data from the corresponding logical >drives on Drive 0! ASSigning DSK to the other drive doesn't make any >difference... > >What am I doing wrong? Nothing obvious. I suspect that your "RL21" handler isn't really configured to address drive 1. There's a known issue with OS/8 handler mapping that can cause issues, but that doesn't look like your problem based on the mappings. What does "RESORC /E" show? -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 3 20:50:28 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 19:50:28 -0700 Subject: DEC manx volunteer(s) needed Message-ID: Hi, There's a large amoung of DEC material on bitsavers alone that isn't indexed into manx. I'm looking for a volunteer who would be willing to get this information entered into manx. Before you roll your eyes thinking how much work it would be, I've mostly automated the process because the URL structure on bitsavers incorporates most of the metadata that manx wants: - company - publication date - publication title - part number I've also automated the process of even entering/pasting the bitsavers URl from which to extract this information by scraping up the Whatsnew.txt file from bitsavers and building a list of documents not yet known to manx. So while the process does take some manual effort, it is mostly checking over the data extracted by the URL wizard. Information can also be entered from other sources, but I don't have as much automation worked out for those sites. If you've been monitoring the RSS feed of new documents on manx, you may have noticed that the documents added are focused on terminals and graphics. That is because those are the documents that most interest me. Given the large quantity of DEC documentation not yet recorded in manx, several people could easily work on adding it focusing on their area of interest/expertise, as I have done with terminals and graphics. If you're interested in helping out, please email me off list. Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Mon Feb 4 03:46:09 2013 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke Stueber) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 10:46:09 +0100 Subject: DEC manx volunteer(s) needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510F8361.6050407@yahoo.de> Hi, On 04.02.2013 03:50, Richard wrote: > I'm looking for a volunteer who would be willing to get this > information entered into manx. I'd be interested in helping. I don't know much about DEC stuff yet (only just got my first PDP), but I always liked indexing things and manx has been a great help so far, so I'd be happy to contribute. Regards, Anke From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 4 11:47:10 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 11:47:10 -0600 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201302041748.r14HmDJQ075317@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:11 PM 2/2/2013, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: >> Long ago when SCSI was young >> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >> >> Did anyone else do that? > > One used to be able to do it with Suns, in the Good Ol' Days. I've >not done it myself but have seen it done. It was really quite neat. There was an Amiga product like that, once upon a time. It was short-lived. It was made by C Ltd. - John From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Feb 4 12:01:11 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 18:01:11 +0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2013 9:49 PM, "Guy Sotomayor" wrote: > > > On Feb 2, 2013, at 5:11 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On 02/02/2013 18:11, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 02/01/2013 09:42 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > >>> Long ago when SCSI was young > >>> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, > >>> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus > >>> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. > >>> > >>> Did anyone else do that? > >> > >> One used to be able to do it with Suns, in the Good Ol' Days. I've > >> not done it myself but have seen it done. It was really quite neat. > > > > A company called Lingenuity did the same with a product called SCSI > > Share, for Acorn computers, around 1989 or 1990. It allowed six > > computers to share a SCSI drive, which appeared as two partitions, one > > read-only for software and one read-write for shared files. Of course > > distances were limited by the SCSI bus, which meant you needed decent > > cables and all the devices more or less on the same tabletop. But I > > have seen it working on more than one occasion. > > > Did this while I was at IBM. We typically had demos of 2-3 systems accessing a number of shared disks. > > It's called multi-initiator mode. Though it was supposed to work (as per spec), not all devices were great at having multiple initiators (hosts) on the same bus. > > Slightly different, Adaptec did produce a device called a "Nodem" which was a SCSI device that connected to ethernet. Was pretty cool in concept. However, I spent a lot of time working with Adaptec and it has some serious bugs that they could never quite work out. The biggest was they had a minimum interpacket time in order to receive an ethernet packet. Unfortunately, the Nodem's interpacket time was longer than the minimum interpacket time on ethernet. This resulted in some cases of missed packets. :-( > > TTFN - Guy > > They had scsi<->ethernet adapters for Macs that didn't have expansion slots I think Asante made them. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 12:20:37 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 10:20:37 -0800 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 10:01 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > They had scsi<->ethernet adapters for Macs that didn't have expansion slots > I think Asante made them. One of those just showed up on eBay this morning. Not something I follow and I have no idea what a reasonable value is for one of these. But it's "Rare!" Asante ENSC SCSI To Ethernet Adapter Rare! http://www.ebay.com/itm/290857727985 $45, BIN $75 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 12:38:28 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:38:28 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1FC6B439-13F5-4DF2-90C7-C8C5829B532E@gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 10:01 AM, John Many Jars > wrote: >> >> They had scsi<->ethernet adapters for Macs that didn't have expansion slots >> I think Asante made them. > > One of those just showed up on eBay this morning. Not something I > follow and I have no idea what a reasonable value is for one of these. > But it's "Rare!" I found it handy for a Mac SE, back in the day when an SE Ethernet card cost an arm and a leg and one of these was lying around spare for some reason. These days, unless I needed something else in the SE expansion slot, I'd probably just go for that, because they were going for about $30 last I looked (which was, to be fair, about 4 years ago). If you want to attach a Mac Plus to any kind of modern network without a seriously quirky LocalTalk bridge, it's pretty much your only bet. Same applies to non-color Classics, which didn't have expansion slots (the Color Classic line had LC-PDS slots). I can't think of any other non-expandable Macs that didn't have Ethernet built in. I suppose that's why it's "R at RE!!!!"; its market was extremely limited, especially since there probably weren't loads of Classic users trying to get onto Ethernet at the time. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 12:40:46 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:40:46 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Asante ENSC SCSI To Ethernet Adapter Rare! > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290857727985 > $45, BIN $75 Anyone know where to get installer disks for those? I have something like it (similar, but in a different box, so could be a different model) and no software. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 12:54:45 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:54:45 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7DE014C9-E6EA-4F2E-8134-14E5A2422178@gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Asante ENSC SCSI To Ethernet Adapter Rare! >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290857727985 >> $45, BIN $75 > > Anyone know where to get installer disks for those? I have something > like it (similar, but in a different box, so could be a different > model) and no software. I can look to see if I have it in my pile of SE disks, or at least the extension (which might still be on the machine). I lost track of the device a long time ago, back when it seemed less important. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 12:56:27 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:56:27 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <779DDFC0-B35D-4818-A1E6-B51912058C3E@gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Asante ENSC SCSI To Ethernet Adapter Rare! >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290857727985 >> $45, BIN $75 > > Anyone know where to get installer disks for those? I have something > like it (similar, but in a different box, so could be a different > model) and no software. Though in theory, this should work as well (there's a disk image at the end): http://www.jagshouse.com/PlusToiMac.html - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 13:18:50 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:18:50 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <779DDFC0-B35D-4818-A1E6-B51912058C3E@gmail.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> <779DDFC0-B35D-4818-A1E6-B51912058C3E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7813986A-F7B9-42FC-820C-C5A3BC64FD5F@gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:56 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 4, 2013, at 1:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> Asante ENSC SCSI To Ethernet Adapter Rare! >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290857727985 >>> $45, BIN $75 >> >> Anyone know where to get installer disks for those? I have something >> like it (similar, but in a different box, so could be a different >> model) and no software. > > Though in theory, this should work as well (there's a disk image at > the end): > > http://www.jagshouse.com/PlusToiMac.html And it appears that Asante still has downloads up, which is actually astonishing at this point: http://www.asante.com/support/legacy/Bridges/EN_SC.asp - Dave From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Feb 4 13:21:36 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:21:36 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 4, 2013, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I suspect that your "RL21" handler isn't really configured to address > drive 1. > > There's a known issue with OS/8 handler mapping that can cause issues, > but that doesn't look like your problem based on the mappings. What > does "RESORC /E" show? > -Rick Excerpted: (there are also the expected SYS, DSK, BAT, TTY and this build has RXA0 and RXA1 and DTA0 installed although unfortunately I don't have the hardware). # NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER 10 (6442) 37 RWF 22+ A 120 11 (6542) 37 RWF 22+ A 114 12 (6642) 37 RWF 22+ A 107 13 (6742) 37 RWF 22+ A 100 14 (6443) 37 RWF 23+ A 120 15 (6543) 37 RWF 23+ A 114 16 (6643) 37 RWF 23+ A 107 17 (6743) 37 RWF 23+ A 100 So, apparently eight distinct User types for the A-D drives on disk 0 and disk 1. Not sure what the "ENT" column is, but they seem to have the same pattern repeated twice? Is this normal? thanks Charles From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 13:43:18 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 14:43:18 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <7813986A-F7B9-42FC-820C-C5A3BC64FD5F@gmail.com> References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> <779DDFC0-B35D-4818-A1E6-B51912058C3E@gmail.com> <7813986A-F7B9-42FC-820C-C5A3BC64FD5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:18 PM, David Riley wrote: > And it appears that Asante still has downloads up, which is actually > astonishing at this point: > > http://www.asante.com/support/legacy/Bridges/EN_SC.asp Thank you! I'll have to dig out my Mac accessory box and see what model I have. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 4 14:15:29 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 15:15:29 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: <201302040205.r14252eA028136@rickmurphy.net> References: <7E1278E1-BA46-45AD-99F6-FB38443AC1A0@centurytel.net> <201302040205.r14252eA028136@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 02:45 PM 2/3/2013, Charles wrote: >> >> I can even unload the heads on Drive 1 and ask for a DIR of its >> logical drives, and not only does OS/8 not hang or at least give a >> "NOT FOUND" error, it gives me the data from the corresponding logical >> drives on Drive 0! ASSigning DSK to the other drive doesn't make any >> difference... >> >> What am I doing wrong? >> > Nothing obvious. > > I suspect that your "RL21" handler isn't really configured to address drive > 1. I would agree. I don't have any experience with RL02s on OS/8, but I have an RL8A and an RL01 that got a *lot* of use in the 1980s. According to the DEC "OS/8 Device Extensions User's Guide" (AA-D319A-TA, an update to the "OS/8 Handbook" - DEC-S8-OSHBA-A-D ) with the RL01, there are several binary handlers - RLSY.BN, RL0.BN, RL1.BN, RL2.BN, RL3.BN and RLC.BN. Presumably there's a similar scheme for the RL02. With the RL01, there was an 'A' and a 'B' partition at 2MB each, then the "leftover" blocks in each track made up the 1MB 'C' partition. I'm guessing here (since there isn't a lot of documentation on the RL02 under OS/8 to check my assumptions) that R2Ax-R2Dx are all equal size and about 2MB each. If you have handlers like RL20.BN and RL21.BN, where did they come from? I think you mentioned an RK05 pack that you started from? Have you diffed an octal dump of the handlers? Presumably they should be different at some small but key point to select drive 0 vs drive 1. I'm about to relocate a bunch of my PDP-8 stuff from long-term storage to a more convenient place. Part of what's there is my old DataSystems desk and my -8/A with the RL8A. That should make it possible for me to try out RL02s on that system for the first time (when I got it, the RL8A was $600, and an RL01 was about $150, but an RL02 was still over $2000). I didn't do so much that I ever "needed" more than a few MB (and it was soooo much better than a floppy-only system). I wish I had something specific to suggest. I'm following this thread with some fascination because I will probably be in the place you are at now sometime soon. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Feb 4 15:46:24 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 21:46:24 +0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Jeff Jonas Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:43 PM > Long ago when SCSI was young > and just an 8 bit parallel bus, > Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus > for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. > Did anyone else do that? At XKL, I once mentioned the use of CI-based disks on TOPS-20 (major feature of v6.0) to one of the SCSI card engineers for the Toad-1. He was intrigued by the idea, read the docs and the TOPS-20 source code for the feature, and implemented MSCP on the FASTWIDE SCSI bus. It never made it past the experimental stage (unfortunately, in my opinion). Computer Interconnect (CI) was a 50Mbit ethernet[1] designed for the Jupiter (follow-on to the DEC-20, to be called the DECSYSTEM-4050), and later retrofitted to the VAX, so I would think that our little experiment qualifies as an edge case. :-) [1] Lower case is intentional. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Feb 4 21:10:41 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 22:10:41 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201302050310.r153Ai5B015665@rickmurphy.net> At 02:21 PM 2/4/2013, Charles wrote: >Excerpted: (there are also the expected SYS, DSK, BAT, TTY and this >build has RXA0 and RXA1 and DTA0 installed although unfortunately I >don't have the hardware). > ># NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER >10 (6442) 37 RWF 22+ A 120 >11 (6542) 37 RWF 22+ A 114 >12 (6642) 37 RWF 22+ A 107 >13 (6742) 37 RWF 22+ A 100 >14 (6443) 37 RWF 23+ A 120 >15 (6543) 37 RWF 23+ A 114 >16 (6643) 37 RWF 23+ A 107 >17 (6743) 37 RWF 23+ A 100 > >So, apparently eight distinct User types for the A-D drives on disk 0 >and disk 1. That's the first thing I wanted to verify - interesting that your copy of RESORC hasn't been patched to know the RL02 device names, but that's cosmetic. Since each drive has a different "NAME" value they're not colliding. The number in the "name" column is the sum of the two sixbit words of the device name, with the high bit forced on if the second word is nonzero. R2A0 is 6222 4120 sixbit, sum 2342, or 4000 = 6342. R2B0 is 6442. R2A1 is 6443. The "BLK" column - "22+" for drive zero, and "23+" for drive 1, means that the driver for disk zero is on block 22 of the system disk (and is a two-page driver, indicated by the "+"), and the driver for disk 1 is on block 23. So there's two distinct drivers for the two drives. >Not sure what the "ENT" column is, but they seem to have >the same pattern repeated twice? Is this normal? Yes, that's normal. Each "drive" (segment of the disk) has a different entry point into the common driver. That's what the "ENT" column tells you. Apparently the RL02 driver can only handle one physical drive unit. Here's the interpretation: Entry 10 (6442) is for R2B0, entry at driver start + 120 Entry 11 (6542) is for R2C0, 114 Entry 12 (6642) is for R2D0, 107 Entry 13 (6742) is for R2E0, 100 Entry 14 (6443) is for R2B1, 120 Entry 15 (6543) is for R2C1, 114 Entry 16 (6643) is for R2D1, 107 Entry 17 (6743) is for R2E1, 100 Contrast this with my SIMH instance with four RK05s: # NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER 05 RKA0 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 0 A 20 06 RKB0 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 0 A 21 07 RKA1 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 1 A 22 10 RKB1 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 1 A 23 11 RKA2 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 2 A 24 12 RKB2 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 2 A 25 13 RKA3 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 3 A 26 14 RKB3 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 3 A 27 17 DTA0 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 0 D 10 There's one driver instance on block 20, single page driver. The "U" column has the unit number, and the entry offset is different. Here it's one driver for four physical and 8 logical disks. I don't have the source for the RL02 driver, but apparently they've hardcoded the unit number into the driver source. Weird. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 5 11:00:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 10:00:51 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: Someone was just asking for one of these... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 11:37:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 09:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: <1360085844.28515.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> great price too ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 9:00 AM PST Richard wrote: >Someone was just asking for one of these... > > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 12:44:30 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:44:30 -0600 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: <1360085844.28515.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360085844.28515.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: few yrs back found a pallet of them left outside to rot by the time i found them the damage had been done though :( sun bleached water soaked On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > great price too > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 9:00 AM PST Richard wrote: > > >Someone was just asking for one of these... > > > > > >-- > >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > > The Computer Graphics Museum > > The Terminals Wiki > > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Feb 5 13:23:28 2013 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 11:23:28 -0800 Subject: "AppleSearch" software needed... Message-ID: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> I'm looking for an Apple enterprise product called "AppleSearch". The version I'm looking for is preferably "1.5", but others might be O.K. Please contact me off list if you have questions or have a copy of this product. Sorry for this crass "commercial" request - but, hey, there is a nice bounty available ;) Thanks! Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From shumaker at att.net Tue Feb 5 14:11:53 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 12:11:53 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <51116789.1030708@att.net> this was on Ebay with a hidden reserve and didn't sell... google came up completely empty on the model info. closest thing was a B1800 which is clearly *not* the same vintage Since Honeywell went Honeywell-Bull in the mid 80s? this should precede that... ended listings item 290852029412 anyone recognize what it is? steve From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 15:05:26 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:05:26 -0600 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <51116789.1030708@att.net> References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> Message-ID: mighta been a industrial machean On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > this was on Ebay with a hidden reserve and didn't sell... > google came up completely empty on the model info. closest thing was a > B1800 which is clearly *not* the same vintage > Since Honeywell went Honeywell-Bull in the mid 80s? this should precede > that... > > ended listings item 290852029412 > > anyone recognize what it is? > > > steve > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 15:20:15 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 13:20:15 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> Message-ID: <5111778F.5090604@gmail.com> On 2/5/2013 1:05 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > mighta been a industrial machean > > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > It does remind me a lot of the Inventory systems you found in auto parts warehouses once upon a time. Heavy duty case because people in warehouses hate computers. No real display because nobody working there would know what it meant anyway. Everything locked up because people would break it otherwise. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 5 15:25:39 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:25:39 -0700 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <51116789.1030708@att.net> References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> Message-ID: In article <51116789.1030708 at att.net>, steve shumaker writes: > this was on Ebay with a hidden reserve and didn't sell... > google came up completely empty on the model info. closest thing was a > B1800 which is clearly *not* the same vintage > Since Honeywell went Honeywell-Bull in the mid 80s? this should precede > that... > > ended listings item 290852029412 > > anyone recognize what it is? Google books yielded some mentions of the B1900 as a Burroughs machine, but I couldn't find anything for Honeywell. However, google books tends to only find stuff from InfoWorld and Computerworld and I am guessing that by the time of this machine Honeywell was participating in much more specialized markets and not seeking press in either of those magazines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bobvines00 at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 15:47:44 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:47:44 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 4) Message-ID: I forwarded this RL02 vs OS/8 question to Charles Lasner, his response follows the original question. [snip] > Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 13:45:46 -0600 > From: Charles > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? > Message-ID: <7E1278E1-BA46-45AD-99F6-FB38443AC1A0 at centurytel.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > I'm trying to find a manual detailing the operation of an RL02 under > OS/8. The Bitsavers archive only has manuals new enough through the > RL01. > Can someone point me to the proper documentation? > > Meanwhile, although several years ago I did manage to build an OS/8 > system with two RL02's on SIMH and transfer that disk image to an RL02 > pack, and BUILD shows the appropriate device names, when the second > drive (1) is accessed, the data actually comes from the boot drive > (0). Just now getting around to playing with it again. > Version: OS/8 KBM V3T, CCL V3E. > > The relevant portion of the BUILD printout: (I didn't have enough > handlers to add the "leftover" E drives anyway) > > R2SY: *SYS R20A > RL20: *R2A0 *R2B0 *R2C0 *R2D0 > RL21: *R2A1 *R2B1 *R2C1 *R2D1 > DSK=RL20:R2A0 > > I can even unload the heads on Drive 1 and ask for a DIR of its > logical drives, and not only does OS/8 not hang or at least give a > "NOT FOUND" error, it gives me the data from the corresponding logical > drives on Drive 0! ASSigning DSK to the other drive doesn't make any > difference... > > What am I doing wrong? > thanks > Charles > [snip] > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 4 > ************************************** ********** >From CJL: I can't guarantee this is the problem, but I do see a potential driver head count problem here: Let's start with the weirdness that is OS/8 RL support in the RL01: To support the RL01, there is a controller card jumper to set. I never found out EXACTLY what it does, but I can describe that constrained to the only rational answers. The RL02 has twice as many tracks to manually seek over [! Wonderful for real-time, since it doesn't interrupt! Ask the -11 people about creating RL seek-check tasks.] Thus, on the RL01 [which I suspect cannot be supported on the DECmate I's obscure RL278 spec'd for RL02 generally] you have to make sure that the proper bits get to the controller, which apparently can stupidly step an RL01 into never-never land if you let it. The programming is such that you create the signed difference between where you apparently are and where you want to be and send out a step the head over the direction indicated and number of steps. Thus, the arithmetic high-order bit has to become ignored. Thus, what the jumper does is obviously one of the following: 1) Ignore it; you only see the rest of the bits in the drive. I think this is least likely. 2) Set the bit to the same value as the one immediately to the right regardless of what the instruction says to do. This is a signed quantity because it could be a seek to lesser or further out as required, etc. In any case, this is an RL02 question, so we can table that factoid; I just want to know because it does mean that software could be then written to work with mixed situations of RL01 and RL02 on the same controller the way the -11 does it. Obviously they were told to make the bit being ignored/adjusted the correct value from the beginning; I think many knew the RL02 was not that far in the future when the RL01 was released, so their software designs were cognizant of the then future, etc. Unfortunately, it is a known quantity that much of the RL software is sloppy and can be counted upon to not be counted upon regardless of what the correct thing to do is, thus this stupid compatibility jumper, etc. [I never wrote a P?S/8 handler for it, thus I don't know. Moreover, OS/8's handlers are probably the most compromised for R-L devices; any actual correct performance with the switch off for RL01 would be a happy accident; no effort was expended to get it right; the jumper was known the exist. In P?S/8, I don't have the handler limitations, thus could get that right as well as a whole lot of other things; OS/8 is an awful kludge and incompatible with all other usages of RL01 and RL02, etc.] All that said, here is how you get it to work: First of all, not only do you have to perform a general formatting diagnostic that then builds a collection of bad block tables. [I believe there is a "factory" master table to never erase, and then some newer table to add in found-in-the-field more bad spots, etc.] All of that is done in an 8-bit orientation. To my knowledge, it is difficult at best to access this data in byte mode in one pass, so clearly 2:1 interleave is part of the design discussion regardless. In any case, it is the case of OS/8 using 12-bit mode. OS/8 cannot access the real bad block tables. Thus, there is an OS/8 crutch secondary program. The RL01 is divvied up into "wedges" of unequal size. Two larger ones and another one 1/2 the size of the other two. I have no idea how they account for this; in OS/8 PIP there is supposed to be a table where by internal logical device number you patch in the device size for directory zeroing purposes, etc. Thus, I guess the small wedgie is considered a different logical device despite it possibly being part of a same or similar non-system handler set [system handler too tight] with the same general I/O code just handling a different wedge of the disk, etc. They got something that is viable, but I am not sure; it could be examined assuming you have a system where PIP knows what to do certainly, etc. The wedges and the little wedgie are each evaluated. As a logical set of sectors in order to handle itself, there is a restriction that is pretty stupid: They insist that the very highest sector of the entire wedge/wedgie is error-free else OS/8 cannot use the pack! However, only the inner-most tracks are guaranteed error free from the factory because that's where the *REAL* bad block table[s] is/are. Expecting a block to actually be good when it is potentially in the main table[s] marked bad is preposterous, And I have heard of packs hand-picked to allow OS/8 family versions to like it because you must relegate it to something else that knows how to play with the bad blocks the way the big boys do, etc. So, assuming that risky situation is somehow OK, that becomes a twelve-bit-oriented record of the bad blocks in the format of which logical sectors of that wedge/wedgie are known bad. This little table is written in the highest logical record of the wedge/wedgie. No handler is maximum size because the table is reserving that last one assuming all are error-free. I would also suspect that there is no way to support it unless a few of the first of them [again, in this logical order of where in the wedge/wedgie they are, etc.] are known good. Certainly applies to the bootable system device one[s]. The handler proceeds to calculate the sector the caller is accessing. For all entries in the table prior to that desired logical record, the record that is ultimately used is bumped by one to "straddle" the bad spot. Thus, we now have the corrected logical record in the wedge/wedgie we want. Notice that this process has to be repeated for any sector in the call since your neighbor could be on the other side of the sinkhole so to speak. [I can see that physically adjacent sectors could all be bad, even with a 2:1 interleave; physically 3 or 4 in a row for example.] Then the handler converts that to the physicality of actual track/head/sector and does the intended read or write operation, etc. Go back and repeat all of the above as necessary from the original caller's marching orders, etc. The ordering of the sectors is through a 2:1 interleave obviously, but remember, all the wedges/wedgie that you don't "own" are in the way in the rotational latency sense. One revolution traverses all physical sectors, but you only get at best 1/2 wedge's forward progress [or worse, one half wedgie, again I mean the one that is 1/2 the size of the two larger ones.] Thus, the overall overhead is gross as the throughput is far less than implied by 2:1 interleave. [Historical note: Instead of playing with this crap when it was released, I was using the DSD-240/Western Dynex drive. 5 MB cartridges removable looking like RL disks superficially, but not servo-driven, rather a better mechanism than an RK05 that admittedly needed alignment but held it quite well. More importantly, it was over another 5.0 MB fixed disk. Thus, with some "Tower of Hanoi" juggling, you can completely back up everything on two 5 MB packs and it is damn fast. DMA with 1:1 interleave, all sectors addressed truly in physical order, a smart controller, no bad blocks whatsoever, smaller logical sectors so each transfer was one or more PDP-8-sized page blocks so completely at home in either P?S/8 or OS/8 with elegant and easy to write handlers for both systems. The command as well as the data are initiated by DMA and then it just does it automatically with a done and error status after-the-fact so low interrupt overhead, etc. In short, absolutely no problems whatsoever. [Note: Part of the concepts that implemented the DSD-240 were incorporated in the MDC8 from CESI; I wrote all the handlers and support utilities.] The media guaranteed to be error free and delivering the promise; what a comparison between elegance and DEC's awful crap; this was well on the way more than merely the begiinning of the end; it was already part of the accelerating slide to eventual oblivion.] So much for the RL01. Note that gets you three handlers for the entirety of one disk with one handler's range 1/2 the size of the other two. That gets you three handler entries in BUILD if this is an RL01. But what of the RL02? Well, the wedgie is still smaller than the other two, but it doubles in size to be the equivalent on the RL02 of a wedge on an RL01. However, the RL02 wedges are twice the size that OS/8 can handle. Thus, an analogy to the RK8E/RK05 can be drawn. Each pack cannot be addressed with one handler; you need two of them each about 2/3-3/4 of the maxed-out OS/8 size. In this case we are talking about a superwedge that has to be logical cut in half as well, back to the equivalent of one RL01 wedge each. Thus, the RL02 gets you FIVE handlers all each addressing the same amount of physical space. >From the BUILD output, it suggests groupings of four, not five. It would appear that there is potential anomaly there. The source code for the handler will reveal what BUILD is told about the device. Clearly that problem of logical device for PIP directory zeroing purposes goes away as they are all know the same logical size, just that there are more of them, thus there needs to be 5 build-oriented entries in these handlers as opposed to three as in the RL01 case. I suspect the confusion comes from there. Maybe you have some mixed RL01 and RL02 handlers confusing things, etc. P?S/8 has nearly NINE pages of code to handle system devices, as opposed to OS/8's only two where the first if a system handler is also not really a complete page with regard to code for the device as opposed to reserved locations "around" the handler code, etc. That concept applies pretty equally to both systems [but I think P?S/8 is slightly tighter.] The second page is actually not completely available either as the field 2 code reserves the last 4 words for OS/8 BATCH. [Come on, folks! The DS/8 people created what they called "HASP". Two attaboys to anyone who can explain the historical meaning of the name from an older non-DEC world. Houston, do we have a problem?] In any case, it got you a batch in 8K, so no reserved words and no 12K requirement at all, etc. And for those who may not have heard, P?S/8 BATCH is based on the original R-L Monitor System; both run BATCH in 4K!] But P?S/8 system handlers get EIGHT complete additional pages for their purposes alone. Clearly there is room to read the REAL bad-block tables and massage them as needed to allow sane bad-block handling. No wedge crutches, no dependency on iffy sectors, etc. As these packs age, I suspect OS/8-worthy ones will become less and less available physically. If you can honor the real tables, you can tolerate the true intended counts. In OS/8, I think each wedge/wedgie is limited to something like 16 total errors there, etc. In time, they will not be usable for the OS/8 kludge [admittedly eventually perhaps not usable at all!] ********** Hopefully some of this helps. I have a couple of RL02 drives that I'd like to try with my PDP-8/E one of these days. (Assuming that I can get an "-8"-formatted pack.) Bob From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 17:38:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 15:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 10:44 AM PST Adrian Stoness wrote: >few yrs back found a pallet of them left outside to rot by the time i found >them the damage had been done though :( sun bleached water soaked I wouldn't always be so quick to discard or rule out the usefulness of water soaked sun bleached items especially if they're rare. If only there is the possibility to salvage parts. Water "damge" might not amount to much anyway. I feel I need to repeat this. I knew a guy who worked for Hazeltine years ago working on IFF systems or something. Never knew until recently they manufactured commercial items, but that might just be an assumption. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 5 18:02:24 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:02:24 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2FCA9951-1091-418D-A2C8-9416E3AD10D2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 5, at 3:38 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 10:44 AM PST Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> few yrs back found a pallet of them left outside to rot by the >> time i found >> them the damage had been done though :( sun bleached water soaked > > I wouldn't always be so quick to discard or rule out the usefulness > of water soaked sun bleached items especially if they're rare. If > only there is the possibility to salvage parts. Water "damge" might > not amount to much anyway. I feel I need to repeat this. > > I knew a guy who worked for Hazeltine years ago working on IFF > systems or something. Never knew until recently they manufactured > commercial items, but that might just be an assumption. Hazeltine was a very old radio company, going back to the 1920s, although based around design/patents/licensing rather than manufacturing, originally at least. Terminals were an offshoot or sideline. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 18:03:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:03:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: strange Honeywell system Message-ID: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> interesting if you live on the west coast somewhat less so when you live in New Jersey. especially when you have no knowledge of its innards. the seller speaks of the possibility of it having a rare IBM processor. some people consider the 486 rare From shumaker at att.net Tue Feb 5 18:25:36 2013 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:25:36 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5111A300.9010505@att.net> yup. that's what I'm thinking. I've sent seller a note asking for more info and his minimum cost... I'm curious about the unit and close enough to risk at least a little on it...(SFBay area). Intriguing that there's literally nothing on that model to be found - was hoping the well of knowledge here would recognize it in some fashion! steve On 2/5/2013 4:03 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > interesting if you live on the west coast > > somewhat less so when you live in New Jersey. > especially when you have no knowledge of its innards. the seller speaks of the possibility of it having a rare IBM processor. some people consider the 486 rare > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 5 18:34:01 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 16:34:01 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: <2FCA9951-1091-418D-A2C8-9416E3AD10D2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2FCA9951-1091-418D-A2C8-9416E3AD10D2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5111A4F9.1060406@sydex.com> On 02/05/2013 04:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Hazeltine was a very old radio company, going back to the 1920s, > although based around design/patents/licensing rather than > manufacturing, originally at least. Indeed; it was common to see on the label of old B&W TV sets, an acknowledgement that certain aspects were licensed from Hazeltine--namely, the AGC circuit. You'd often also see the same sort of acknowledgement for Edwin H Armstrong (FM) as well as RCA. In the 40s and 50s, I wonder if Hazeltine made more off their patents than actually selling product. --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Feb 5 18:43:09 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 19:43:09 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 4) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201302060043.r160hBhR029467@rickmurphy.net> At 04:47 PM 2/5/2013, Bob Vines wrote: >Hopefully some of this helps. I have a couple of RL02 drives that I'd >like to try with my PDP-8/E one of these days. (Assuming that I can >get an "-8"-formatted pack.) There's no format difference. There's a bit called the "mode" bit (software selected) which selects 12-bit mode or 8 bit mode for the RL8A. In 12-bit mode, a sector contains 128 12-bit words or 256 8-bit bytes - 64 bytes are wasted in 12-bit mode. (Also, with 12-bit mode, you can't DMA more than one sector at a time.) I don't know for sure, but I'll bet that OS/8 runs in 12-bit mode. You *do* have to run a magic formatter program on the '8 that fixes up the bad block map into where OS/8 expects it. As far as the jumper Charles is referring to - there's a pair of jumpers on the RL8A that need to be configured. W8 is installed to support the RL02 (W8), W9 installed for the RL01. Only one of those jumpers are installed at a time. If the zero drive is working, W8 is installed. What this does (when W9 is installed) is to limit the track delta register to the RL01 size. -Rick From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 18:47:32 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:47:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: <1360111652.8097.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Hazeltine was a very old radio company, going back to the 1920s, although based around design/patents/licensing rather than manufacturing, originally at least. > >Terminals were an offshoot or sideline. Very little of which were likely made by them anyway. But what do I know. F'rinstance the Sperry ?/Leading Edge Model M was wholly a Mitsubishi product. Even the monitors were M*, and at least 1 model externally bore a striking resemblance to the TRS-80 CM-1 used w/the model.2000. Like anyone cares. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 18:51:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:51:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: strange Honeywell system Message-ID: <1360111913.84181.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> in reality even if it did have only a 386 or 486 I would still consider it interesting. I still miss my old HP 386 tower server thing. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 5 19:00:44 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 17:00:44 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <5111A300.9010505@att.net> References: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5111A300.9010505@att.net> Message-ID: <5111AB3C.6040901@sydex.com> On 02/05/2013 04:25 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > yup. that's what I'm thinking. I've sent seller a note asking for more > info and his minimum cost... I'm curious about the unit and close > enough to risk at least a little on it...(SFBay area). Intriguing that > there's literally nothing on that model to be found - was hoping the > well of knowledge here would recognize it in some fashion! It's hard to tell, but this box looks as if it's post-1987. Probably one of Honeywell's later products (after the Groupe Bull spinoff). Honeywell has used 68K and PPC CPUs in many of its products. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 5 19:11:55 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 20:11:55 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5111A4F9.1060406@sydex.com> References: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2FCA9951-1091-418D-A2C8-9416E3AD10D2@cs.ubc.ca> <5111A4F9.1060406@sydex.com> Message-ID: > In the 40s and 50s, I wonder if Hazeltine made more off their patents than > actually selling product. No, probably not. Hazeltine was a pretty big defense contractor during World War 2, the 1950s, and beyond. -- Will From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 5 20:18:36 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 18:18:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: <1360117116.18604.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 5:11 PM PST William Donzelli wrote: >> In the 40s and 50s, I wonder if Hazeltine made more off their patents than >> actually selling product. > >No, probably not. Hazeltine was a pretty big defense contractor during >World War 2, the 1950s, and beyond. Grumman was a ginormous defense contractor on Long Island. Yet at some points every jamoke with a drill press was making parts for them. The final product was *all* Grumman though. They weeded a lot of their suppliers out over time.just in time to close up shop. From chd at chdickman.com Tue Feb 5 20:28:17 2013 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 21:28:17 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: <201302050310.r153Ai5B015665@rickmurphy.net> References: <201302050310.r153Ai5B015665@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: A version of the handler sources can be found here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8/os78/v4/ -chuck On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 10:10 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 02:21 PM 2/4/2013, Charles wrote: > > Excerpted: (there are also the expected SYS, DSK, BAT, TTY and this >> build has RXA0 and RXA1 and DTA0 installed although unfortunately I >> don't have the hardware). >> >> # NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER >> 10 (6442) 37 RWF 22+ A 120 >> 11 (6542) 37 RWF 22+ A 114 >> 12 (6642) 37 RWF 22+ A 107 >> 13 (6742) 37 RWF 22+ A 100 >> 14 (6443) 37 RWF 23+ A 120 >> 15 (6543) 37 RWF 23+ A 114 >> 16 (6643) 37 RWF 23+ A 107 >> 17 (6743) 37 RWF 23+ A 100 >> >> So, apparently eight distinct User types for the A-D drives on disk 0 >> and disk 1. >> > > That's the first thing I wanted to verify - interesting that your copy of > RESORC hasn't been patched to know the RL02 device names, but that's > cosmetic. Since each drive has a different "NAME" value they're not > colliding. > > The number in the "name" column is the sum of the two sixbit words of the > device name, with the high bit forced on if the second word is nonzero. > R2A0 is 6222 4120 sixbit, sum 2342, or 4000 = 6342. R2B0 is 6442. R2A1 is > 6443. > > The "BLK" column - "22+" for drive zero, and "23+" for drive 1, means that > the driver for disk zero is on block 22 of the system disk (and is a > two-page driver, indicated by the "+"), and the driver for disk 1 is on > block 23. So there's two distinct drivers for the two drives. > > > Not sure what the "ENT" column is, but they seem to have >> the same pattern repeated twice? Is this normal? >> > > Yes, that's normal. Each "drive" (segment of the disk) has a different > entry point into the common driver. That's what the "ENT" column tells you. > Apparently the RL02 driver can only handle one physical drive unit. > > Here's the interpretation: > Entry 10 (6442) is for R2B0, entry at driver start + 120 > Entry 11 (6542) is for R2C0, 114 > Entry 12 (6642) is for R2D0, 107 > Entry 13 (6742) is for R2E0, 100 > > Entry 14 (6443) is for R2B1, 120 > Entry 15 (6543) is for R2C1, 114 > Entry 16 (6643) is for R2D1, 107 > Entry 17 (6743) is for R2E1, 100 > > Contrast this with my SIMH instance with four RK05s: > > # NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER > 05 RKA0 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 0 A 20 > 06 RKB0 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 0 A 21 > 07 RKA1 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 1 A 22 > 10 RKB1 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 1 A 23 > 11 RKA2 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 2 A 24 > 12 RKB2 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 2 A 25 > 13 RKA3 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 3 A 26 > 14 RKB3 RK8E RWF 3248 20 RK05 3 A 27 > 17 DTA0 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 0 D 10 > > There's one driver instance on block 20, single page driver. > The "U" column has the unit number, and the entry offset is different. > Here it's one driver for four physical and 8 logical disks. I don't have > the source for the RL02 driver, but apparently they've hardcoded the unit > number into the driver source. Weird. > -Rick > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 5 22:15:10 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:15:10 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1360107501.71370.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <2FCA9951-1091-418D-A2C8-9416E3AD10D2@cs.ubc.ca> <5111A4F9.1060406@sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > In the 40s and 50s, I wonder if Hazeltine made more off their patents than > > actually selling product. > > No, probably not. Hazeltine was a pretty big defense contractor during > World War 2, the 1950s, and beyond. See: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 5 23:19:20 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 21:19:20 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> Message-ID: That's my thought as well. I worked on a lot of old Honeywell systems (both Mini and Mainframes) in the early to mid-90's, and it doesn't look anything like the gear I worked on. Zane At 3:05 PM -0600 2/5/13, Adrian Stoness wrote: >mighta been a industrial machean > >On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> this was on Ebay with a hidden reserve and didn't sell... >> google came up completely empty on the model info. closest thing was a >> B1800 which is clearly *not* the same vintage >> Since Honeywell went Honeywell-Bull in the mid 80s? this should precede >> that... >> >> ended listings item 290852029412 >> >> anyone recognize what it is? >> >> >> steve >> >> -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 5 23:44:20 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 21:44:20 -0800 Subject: Apollo 700-series boxes available Message-ID: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> Spotted on Erik's VC Forum: 2 HP Apollo series 700 3 HP Apollo 715/75 http://bit.ly/WPKy5l --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Feb 2 16:28:35 2013 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 11:28:35 +1300 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. Message-ID: > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 19:38:36 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > > > To let people know.. > > I have been buying these, scanning them, and putting them on bitsavers > and have had the same dick running them up to $20-$25 each time in the last second. > > If I DON'T do this, they will disappear in that black hole of the "mainframe collector" > > I don't know who this prick is, but I'm getting REALLY sick of this. > > If this is the same guy who was doing this on ebay years ago... didn't he have an ID something like sndshq (or some approximately similar combination)? I see to recall deliberately putting a 'teaser' item on ebay, and needless to say he was all over me like a rash with questions... IIRC he was from somewhere up north east... maybe New Hampshire? I have a hole, but it's utterly non-black. CHM have some clout; do you think there's any mileage in you trying to get IBM to re-open their archives. ISTR ?Jay Maynard? telling me years ago that they used to be open and helpful, then about ten years ago got locked down tight due to lawyer-driven BS. (that's getting so common now I think it needs an acronym of its own... LDBS?) (oh and the entire Corestore collection is now in New Zealand, for those who don't know! Film at 11 :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From pinball at telus.net Sat Feb 2 20:52:33 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2013 18:52:33 -0800 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <510DD0F1.8020107@telus.net> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm interested in trying to use their SCSI >> to interface them with a (Linux) PC somehow. >> Any ideas? Like maybe some webpages >> describing projects that have networked older >> (preferably 68xxx) CPUs over their shared SCSI bus. > > As far as I remember, you can have multiple hosts on line, if they > are not supplying current to the active terminators, and uses > different SCSI IDs... > This would be interesting to some folks I know who play with test gear that runs on OS9, has a SCSI port on the rear, but that the software only considers a tape drive hooked up to that port as valid (Fluke 9100 series). Anyone here work with OS9? John :-#)# From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sun Feb 3 06:37:44 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2013 23:37:44 +1100 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3FAE641EBDAA419DA99ADB94B2A42C16@ANTONIOPC> References: <3FAE641EBDAA419DA99ADB94B2A42C16@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <96418F76-7071-43D7-B0DF-7C31C0787669@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 03/02/2013, at 6:25 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Jeff Jonas [jeffj at panix.com] wrote: >> Long ago when SCSI was young >> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >> >> Did anyone else do that? > > I don't remember the details but I'm fairly sure you could run > OpenVMS clusters over SCSI at some point. I don't recall > whether this was "just experimental" or whether it was > actually supported in some configurations. Fully supported on OpenVMS/Alpha with the appropriate adapters - I certainly set up more than one such cluster. IIRC it's recently been qualified for Integrity as well. Being OpenVMS the disks are shared active/active between the two nodes, all you had to do was set the SCSI ids of the two controllers to a different value (suggested was 7 for one, 6 for the other). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From gerardcjat at free.fr Sun Feb 3 13:46:06 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2013 20:46:06 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) References: Message-ID: NOT affiliated with seller ! In Germany, with English text , 25 ? DHL International delivery : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330868483890&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:FR:1123 ** IF ** of interest for someone on the Cctalk file ... >>"" In this auction I am offering: for Amiga2000 Catweasel Z-II S-Class Latest version of the IDE and floppy controller for Amiga2000! Combination of IDE Controller Buddha and Catweasel floppy controller. Finally use HD floppy and IDE hard drives in Amiga 2000! I offer an IDE to Dual Compact Flash Adapter in addition! Card is in good condition and works perfectly! "" << From doug at doughq.com Sun Feb 3 20:57:33 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 13:57:33 +1100 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Everybody, For what it is worth, I recently got a Spectrum myself. I was able to modify it by opening the RF modulator can, disconnecting the output coupling cap from the RCA rf socket, and then linking the input to the modulator to the output connector directly. Now, it outputs beautiful video directly to my TV, without any of the annoying RF nonsense. And it can be trivially reverted back if necessary. Doug On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those who might be interested, a freshly-minted YouTube video this > time on another bastion of British retro-computing, my iconic > ZX-Spectrum. > http://youtu.be/cCqXqYRlQt0 > > Cheers > > Terry (Tez) > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Feb 4 11:04:13 2013 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2013 12:04:13 -0500 Subject: The VCFSE Press Release Message-ID: <1D97F6F3-AE4F-4719-B4C0-472CFEB04617@classiccomputing.com> Hi there, If I might please share with everyone on these lists about our upcoming BIG show! - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Announcing the First Ever Vintage Computer Festival Southeast The original Vintage Computer Festival was founded by Sellam Ismail and held in Pleasanton, California during October, 1997. Now, finally, the southeast region of the US gets its very own! ROSWELL, Georgia ? February 4, 2013 ? Vintage Computer Festival Southeast ? a public celebration of computer history and nostalgia ? will be held on Saturday & Sunday, April 20 & 21. Our mission remains the same as that very first show: The main mission of the Vintage Computer Festival is to promote the preservation of "obsolete" computers by offering attendees a chance to experience the technologies, people and stories that embody the remarkable tale of the computer revolution. We will educate and entertain! - A large premier exhibit will welcome each attendee as they enter the festival - The Apple Pop-Up Museum which tells the story of how a small start-up company, founded in a garage by two young friends, became the leading consumer electronics and personal computer company in the world. The exhibit displays an exclusive collection of game-changing Apple personal computers and consumer electronic products while presenting the history of the company since its founding in 1976 to the present. An Apple I, the first disk ][ and controller card, original apple ][, original Lisa and even a Xerox Alto are among the rare artifacts to be displayed, plus much, much more. Within the 6,000 square feet of display space that this premier exhibit occupies will be the following rooms: Pre-Apple Room, Apple I Room, apple ][ Room, Turmoil Years Room, No Founders Left Room, Jobs? Come Back Room, Ive?s Colors Room, iPod / iPhone / iPad Room, The Timeline Lounge and Apple?s Present to the Future Room. - Dozens of exhibitors will be present from all over the region, plus many from other parts of the country. A large variety of historic computers will be represented in the exhibit hall for live demonstrations by their owners. - A vintage game station will be available for children and adults to play classic games on classic computer and game console systems. - Two retrocomputing kit building classes will be held, plus continual, inexpensive introduction to soldering classes. - Many luminous speakers and special presenters are now being scheduled. The VCFSE is hosted and produced by the Computer Museum of America and the Atlanta Historical Computing Society. One-day adult tickets to the VCFSE are $10, with a two-day pass for $15. Children ages 17 and younger are admitted free when accompanied by a parent or guardian. For hours, location, and other details, please visit vintage.org/2013/southeast Contact: David Greelish, Director, Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 david at classiccomputing.com | 770-733-6702 Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Writer, Podcaster & Speaker - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society http://about.me/davidgreelish Director of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 4/20 & 4/21, 2013 http://vintage.org/2013/southeast/ From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Feb 4 17:24:09 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:24:09 -0800 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <51104319.1030902@jwsss.com> On 2/4/2013 1:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jeff Jonas > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2013 6:43 PM > >> Long ago when SCSI was young >> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >> Did anyone else do that? > At XKL, I once mentioned the use of CI-based disks on TOPS-20 (major > feature of v6.0) to one of the SCSI card engineers for the Toad-1. > He was intrigued by the idea, read the docs and the TOPS-20 source > code for the feature, and implemented MSCP on the FASTWIDE SCSI bus. > It never made it past the experimental stage (unfortunately, in my > opinion). > > Computer Interconnect (CI) was a 50Mbit ethernet[1] designed for the > Jupiter (follow-on to the DEC-20, to be called the DECSYSTEM-4050), > and later retrofitted to the VAX, so I would think that our little > experiment qualifies as an edge case. :-) > > > [1] Lower case is intentional. > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > CMD now Silicon Imaging, who have made a lot off of a PCI to IDE chip had a CI disk subsystem which hooked to Vax systems. The chip they used escapes me, but it was a SCSI chip of some sort that was persuaded to parse the info coming from the VAX. I believe they dispatched action in the controller within a couple of their clocks from having the complete command received from the VAX. The DEC hardware didn't stand a chance performance wise, as it had to read the command an chew on it for a while in some processor before anything happened. If the Cache in the CMD subsystem had the data it was turned around from the buffer starting practically a soon as the command byte went out. Jim From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Feb 5 16:16:22 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:16:22 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <5111778F.5090604@gmail.com> References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> <5111778F.5090604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511184B6.6050202@jwsss.com> It is an Ultimate system in all likelyhood. There is a chain which uses Pick currently that had Ultimate in a lot of their operations, perhaps the ones that were seen were also the Ultimate systems. I have 4 of these in stock. they run 68040 processors, 4mb of mem, and up to 4 ESDI drives. I don't think there were many other customers for these but for Ultimate. Ultimate also marketed systems with a PDP 11 system hosting a co processor which ran the ultimate pick code. Same binary would run on both their Honeywell Level 6 systems as the PDP's, but the monitor code which did I/O was vastly different for obvious reasons. These systems had a cross compiled version of the system which had larger 4k pages, and ran in native 68000 code. The monitor functions etc., and the Ultimate source assembly code was mostly the same for these systems. This system and the Ultimate 370 / ESA systems both were cross compiles from the same ultimate virtual assembly into their hosts native processor code, preserving the virtual structure of the Ultimate system. Jim On 2/5/2013 1:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/5/2013 1:05 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> mighta been a industrial machean >> >> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: >> > > It does remind me a lot of the Inventory systems you found in auto > parts warehouses once upon a time. Heavy duty case because people in > warehouses hate computers. No real display because nobody working > there would know what it meant anyway. Everything locked up because > people would break it otherwise. > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 01:48:48 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 05:48:48 -0200 Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) References: Message-ID: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> BTW, since I'm always on the poor side of things...Is there an easy-to-build, non-autoboot IDE controller for the A2000? My A2000 sits on my bench looking at me, missing a keyboard (eh...I have the keyboard, but I don't have the coils/keycaps) and any HD card :o) I think I can solve the keyboard, but not the HD at this moment :( I'd cry for an A2091 :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "GerardCJAT" To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 5:46 PM Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) NOT affiliated with seller ! In Germany, with English text , 25 ? DHL International delivery : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330868483890&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:FR:1123 ** IF ** of interest for someone on the Cctalk file ... >>"" In this auction I am offering: for Amiga2000 Catweasel Z-II S-Class Latest version of the IDE and floppy controller for Amiga2000! Combination of IDE Controller Buddha and Catweasel floppy controller. Finally use HD floppy and IDE hard drives in Amiga 2000! I offer an IDE to Dual Compact Flash Adapter in addition! Card is in good condition and works perfectly! "" << From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 02:33:27 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 03:33:27 -0500 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <510D56EA.6090807@neurotica.com> <510DB944.2020900@dunnington.plus.com> <08C2C8C9-3FAE-477A-BBDA-61593FBCC41B@shiresoft.com> <779DDFC0-B35D-4818-A1E6-B51912058C3E@gmail.com> <7813986A-F7B9-42FC-820C-C5A3BC64FD5F@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Feb 4, 2013 at 2:18 PM, David Riley wrote: >> And it appears that Asante still has downloads up, which is actually >> astonishing at this point: >> >> http://www.asante.com/support/legacy/Bridges/EN_SC.asp > > Thank you! I'll have to dig out my Mac accessory box and see what model I have. It looks like I do have the model in the eBay listing posted earlier, the old boxy EN/SC. Internally, there's a Natl Semi DP8390DN for Ethernet, and for the media interfaces, a DP8391AN and DP8392CN. I can't find anything that resembles a microprocessor and it looks like the SCSI interface is implemented on a trio of PALs. There happen to be some counters (74LS393) between the PALs and the 27C256 EPROM, so perhaps there's just a simple state machine that pushes and pulls magically-formatted SCSI packets and all the rest of the smarts are in the driver. I'm missing the power adapters and the boxes aren't marked. Another model uses 12VAC wall warts. This PCB has a big fat 2A block rectifier, so perhaps it's the same. There's no linear regulator like a 7805 on there, but there's a Motorola MC34163P and a big, fat coil, so it appears it has its own switching regulator built into the board. I think from a quick read of the Asante docs that it will work with System 6.0.8 or newer, meaning at least 6.something. IIRC, Apple made significant changes in networking over System 7. Thanks again for the pointers. I think I have enough to put these to use on an old Mac Plus or Mac SE. -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 6 03:40:00 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 22:40:00 +1300 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > For what it is worth, I recently got a Spectrum myself. I was able to > modify it by opening the RF modulator can, disconnecting the output > coupling cap from the RCA rf socket, and then linking the input to the > modulator to the output connector directly. > > Now, it outputs beautiful video directly to my TV, without any of the > annoying RF nonsense. And it can be trivially reverted back if necessary. Good one Doug. I think this is the same modification mine has. Terry (Tez) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 03:51:32 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 07:51:32 -0200 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube References: Message-ID: <1A80FD4B0FB94AA9A7D37421D4324173@tababook> Does this mod works with LCD monitors (with composite input)? Sometimes the video signal isn't 100% what the LCD expects and it varies the bright of image. Vide https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMtgLzjnIH0&list=UUS6T1DlPNVd12A6QypilRIA&index=6 (my TK-85, a brazilian ZX-81 clone with spectrum-like case and keyboard) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 7:40 AM Subject: Re: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube >> For what it is worth, I recently got a Spectrum myself. I was able to >> modify it by opening the RF modulator can, disconnecting the output >> coupling cap from the RCA rf socket, and then linking the input to the >> modulator to the output connector directly. >> >> Now, it outputs beautiful video directly to my TV, without any of the >> annoying RF nonsense. And it can be trivially reverted back if >> necessary. > > Good one Doug. I think this is the same modification mine has. > > Terry (Tez) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 6 04:04:00 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 03:04:00 -0700 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <51122A90.1050002@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > Computer Interconnect (CI) was a 50Mbit ethernet[1] 70 Mbps. Although it clearly was inspired by Ethernet, it is dissimilar enough that I'm not sure I'd even call it a (lower-case "l") ethernet. > designed for the > Jupiter (follow-on to the DEC-20, to be called the DECSYSTEM-4050), > and later retrofitted to the VAX, Perhaps you have more information about CI history than I do, but the documents I've seen suggest that it was intended for everything from the KL and VAX-11/780 up. The case could be made that it was "retrofitted" to the VAX-11/750. The original CI hardware, including the PLI interface, was clearly designed to be suitable for machines with memory bandwidth as low as that of the VAX-11/780. Eric From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 04:41:35 2013 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:41:35 +0100 Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) In-Reply-To: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> References: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > > BTW, since I'm always on the poor side of things...Is there an > easy-to-build, non-autoboot IDE controller for the A2000? > > You could probably easily adapt a500ide ( http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/a500ide.html). It's a couple of gates, nothing more. Joachim. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 6 04:47:38 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 23:47:38 +1300 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube In-Reply-To: <1A80FD4B0FB94AA9A7D37421D4324173@tababook> References: <1A80FD4B0FB94AA9A7D37421D4324173@tababook> Message-ID: > Does this mod works with LCD monitors (with composite input)? Sometimes > the video signal isn't 100% what the LCD expects and it varies the bright of > image. I can't answer that. My LCD monitor doesn't have composite input. Terry (Tez) From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Feb 6 05:11:58 2013 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 12:11:58 +0100 Subject: ebay IBM system/360 and DEC manuals ending soon. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51123A7E.1000206@update.uu.se> On 02/02/2013 11:28 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > (oh and the entire Corestore collection is now in New Zealand, for > those who don't know! Film at 11 :-) Holy heavy mover batman, is your hobby collecting heavy stuff or moving them across oceans ? Cheers, Pontus. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 05:13:44 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:13:44 -0200 Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) References: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> Message-ID: <82E7C2AD4F8E4332B9195923D448C6F3@tababook> Thanks! I'll try to make it work :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Thiemann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < > pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> BTW, since I'm always on the poor side of things...Is there an >> easy-to-build, non-autoboot IDE controller for the A2000? >> >> > You could probably easily adapt a500ide ( > http://www.students.tut.fi/~leinone3/ide/a500ide.html). It's a couple of > gates, nothing more. > > Joachim. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 6 05:32:10 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 00:32:10 +1300 Subject: My Kaypro II on Youtube Message-ID: My Kaypro II on YouTube. http://youtu.be/2LO6Pv2IXxc for those that might be interested. Terry (Tez) From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 05:59:30 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 05:59:30 -0600 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <1359855718.44762.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1359855718.44762.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130206115930.GD2141@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (02/02/2013 at 05:41PM -0800), Chris Tofu wrote: > > Speaking of Ampro, does anyone have a later one, v40 or 80186, but in particular the pal chip and the means to read off the contents? I have an LB186... currently off-site for show and tell but by the weekend I will have it back home and can read off the PAL (assuming it is readable). Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 06:10:01 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 06:10:01 -0600 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <51104319.1030902@jwsss.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <51104319.1030902@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130206121001.GE2141@n0jcf.net> FWIW, Digiboard here in MN, built a line of intelligent multi-port serial adapters which connected to SCSI. The OEM'd them for SGI. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 06:56:38 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 07:56:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Corvus Omninet for Apple ///? Message-ID: Does anyone have a Corvus Transporter card for Apple ///? I have been able to get my hands on the software and documentation and had originally thought the Apple II Transporter would work. Unfortunately it doesn't, so I suspect there may have been a distinct version for that machine. If anyone knows for sure, would appreciate information. Even better, I'd like to purchase or trade for such a card! Steve -- From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 6 09:24:37 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:24:37 -0500 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360109006.41424.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511275B5.5050404@verizon.net> On 02/05/2013 07:03 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > interesting if you live on the west coast > > somewhat less so when you live in New Jersey. > especially when you have no knowledge of its innards. the seller speaks of the possibility of it having a rare IBM processor. some people consider the 486 rare > I find that last statement funny. I have a small format (for 1990) 386sx/25 board I keep for emergencies. I have a SIIG box with a 386/16 for a router. I have two Dell 486sx (486dx/66 without external cache) pizza boxes and a coffee can of 286/386/486 chips I think I haven't tossed yet. The 486 PCs and the 386 board are saved as I need them to use for ISA-8 and ISA-16 board hosts. Other wise I consider them junk and they will be tossed as junk if and when they die. Allison From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 09:29:40 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:29:40 +0000 Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) In-Reply-To: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> References: <82B1729742794B95BC54964D68E62FAF@tababook> Message-ID: <992844071-1360164578-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1944691734-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> If I'm not mistaken this is also the aim of the latest lynch and associates scsi-ide adapter project. He's mentioned it here I think but you can likely find it at the n8vem site too. -----Original Message----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 05:48:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) BTW, since I'm always on the poor side of things...Is there an easy-to-build, non-autoboot IDE controller for the A2000? My A2000 sits on my bench looking at me, missing a keyboard (eh...I have the keyboard, but I don't have the coils/keycaps) and any HD card :o) I think I can solve the keyboard, but not the HD at this moment :( I'd cry for an A2091 :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "GerardCJAT" To: Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2013 5:46 PM Subject: Catweasel Z-II "S-Class" IDE Controller ( Amiga 2000 ) NOT affiliated with seller ! In Germany, with English text , 25 ? DHL International delivery : http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330868483890&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:FR:1123 ** IF ** of interest for someone on the Cctalk file ... >>"" In this auction I am offering: for Amiga2000 Catweasel Z-II S-Class Latest version of the IDE and floppy controller for Amiga2000! Combination of IDE Controller Buddha and Catweasel floppy controller. Finally use HD floppy and IDE hard drives in Amiga 2000! I offer an IDE to Dual Compact Flash Adapter in addition! Card is in good condition and works perfectly! "" << From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 6 10:57:59 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:57:59 -0600 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20130206121001.GE2141@n0jcf.net> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <51104319.1030902@jwsss.com> <20130206121001.GE2141@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20130206165759.GF18811@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/06/2013 at 06:10AM -0600), Chris Elmquist wrote: > FWIW, > > Digiboard here in MN, built a line of intelligent multi-port serial > adapters which connected to SCSI. The OEM'd them for SGI. Just closing the loop on this, after checking with my drinking buddies (aka, former Digi cohorts). Turns out the devices were originally built by Central Data. Digi bought Central Data and kept the line alive for a while. SGI had already integrated them into IRIX and although they were called "SCSI Terminal Server", they really presented a tty device interface to the OS and application software. You ended up with a tty device per port in the /dev hierarchy. see eg, http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?coll=0650&db=man&fname=/usr/share/catman/a_man/cat7/sts.z Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 6 11:41:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 10:41:53 -0700 Subject: DEC manx volunteer(s) needed In-Reply-To: <510F8361.6050407@yahoo.de> References: <510F8361.6050407@yahoo.de> Message-ID: Hi Anke, Thanks for the reply! In article <510F8361.6050407 at yahoo.de>, Anke Stueber writes: > I'd be interested in helping. I don't know much about DEC stuff yet > (only just got my first PDP), but I always liked indexing things and > manx has been a great help so far, so I'd be happy to contribute. Let me prepare a screencast video of how to add documents via the URL Wizard in manx. That will give you a clear idea of exactly how much work it is to add new documents to manx. I am going out of town on a trip tomorrow and will be back Saturday. I'll see if I can get the video uploaded somewhere this weekend. -- Richard -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 6 11:44:06 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:44:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) Message-ID: A Burroughs Redactor II is available in the Maryland area. Please see message below and reply to original sender. Reply-to: NaTasha Morgan-Lipscomb -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:26:55 -0500 From: NaTasha Morgan-Lipscomb To: vcf at vintage.org Subject: Burroughs Redactor II Good Afternoon, Re: Burroughs Redactor II I have the above referenced computer that we found in our home when we purchased it. We would like to have it appraised or sold but don't know where to start. Would you know of any resource that could possibly assist us in an appraisal or sale? Thank You in advance NaTasha & Christian Lipscomb 443.766.9281 cell, 410.701.7010 work From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 6 12:50:47 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 10:50:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big Iron for sale Message-ID: I am divesting myself of most of my large computers. I am soliciting offers for the next week or so and will sell once I receive an offer that is mutually deemed fair. Pick-up location is Stockton, California. While I would prefer local pickup, I can be convinced to palletize for freight shipping with high dollar offers. Symbolics 3600 - two separate units, both I believe are complete. I'm not sure if I have the monitor and keyboard for them anymore. IBM 3420 - two separate units. One fell off a truck and is heavily damaged but restorable with TLC IBM 3803 - to go with the 3420s PDP 8a Computer Automation Naked Mini - may not have front panel Honeywell DPS-6 - two units Plexus P75 - complete and should be working Microdata Royal E - complete and should be working. Includes terminals and keyboards Data Point Dual Carthridge Disc Drive Nuclear Data 9900 - just a rack and drive. VAX 9000 compatible. Slightly damaged. HP 2116C - complete and should be working PDP 11/44 - complete and should be working PDP 11/34 - complete system with RK05, RK05f, dual 8" floppy drives, serial bank, rack DEC TX78U (TA78) LMI Lambda - complete and should be working. Comes with documentation library Four Phase System IV/90 - poor shape but one of few surviving examples Diablo 30 carthridge disc drive and Nicolet 294 Disc Memory Coupler in a rack Tektronix Type 551 scope on rolling cart IBM Scalabe Power Parallel System 9076 See photos here: http://vintagetech.com/photos/bigiron/ -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 6 13:24:33 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 11:24:33 -0800 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility Message-ID: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me red-faced at the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the *latest* drive (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old TK50 tapes? Can one go as far as a TK85? Later? I suspect that a DLT IV drive wouldn't stand a chance. Anyone have experience with this? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 6 13:36:22 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:36:22 -0500 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5112B0B6.7060701@neurotica.com> On 02/06/2013 02:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me red-faced at > the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the *latest* drive > (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old TK50 tapes? Can > one go as far as a TK85? Later? > > I suspect that a DLT IV drive wouldn't stand a chance. > > Anyone have experience with this? I'm told the -85, -86, and -87 drives can read TK50s, but I haven't tried it myself. I just set up a TF85 (DSSI) and will be trying it soon, as I have a few hundred TK50s to image...and I don't want to end up red-faced. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wilson at dbit.com Wed Feb 6 14:38:52 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:38:52 -0500 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130206203852.GA24026@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 06, 2013 at 11:24:33AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me red-faced >at the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the *latest* >drive (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old TK50 >tapes? Can one go as far as a TK85? Later? > >I suspect that a DLT IV drive wouldn't stand a chance. > >Anyone have experience with this? I'm 99% sure I've read TK50s with a DLT2000XT drive (DLTIIIXT). My hazy recollection is that the support was read-only in that drive. No idea about anything later... John Wilson D Bit From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 6 13:39:42 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 11:39:42 -0800 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:24 AM -0800 2/6/13, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me >red-faced at the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the >*latest* drive (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old >TK50 tapes? Can one go as far as a TK85? Later? > >I suspect that a DLT IV drive wouldn't stand a chance. > >Anyone have experience with this? > >--Chuck > I *may* have a chart on this somewhere... IIRC only the DEC drives can read them, the Quantum branded ones can't. Ah, that was easy to google. Looks like a TK87 is the last drive. http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_7762.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 6 13:39:58 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 19:39:58 -0000 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2168269843B04C9BB24E109F47FE4AFF@ANTONIOPC> Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me red-faced > at the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the *latest* drive > (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old TK50 > tapes? Can > one go as far as a TK85? Later? I think the TK88 was the first to drop backwards read compatibility with the TK50/TK70 tapes. Here's something that suggests I might not be far off the mark: http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~rdv/comp-arch-storage/dlt-faq.html Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 6 14:12:32 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 20:12:32 +0000 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <51122A90.1050002@brouhaha.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <51122A90.1050002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118749C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2013 2:04 AM Rich Alderson wrote: >> Computer Interconnect (CI) was a 50Mbit ethernet[1] > 70 Mbps. Not originally. That was the HSC70 upgrade, which was VAX only. > Although it clearly was inspired by Ethernet, it is dissimilar enough > that I'm not sure I'd even call it a (lower-case "l") ethernet. It's similar enough that I would. >> designed for the >> Jupiter (follow-on to the DEC-20, to be called the DECSYSTEM-4050), >> and later retrofitted to the VAX, > Perhaps you have more information about CI history than I do, but the > documents I've seen suggest that it was intended for everything from the > KL and VAX-11/780 up. The case could be made that it was "retrofitted" > to the VAX-11/750. The original CI hardware, including the PLI > interface, was clearly designed to be suitable for machines with memory > bandwidth as low as that of the VAX-11/780. When I first heard about the CI, it was in a Jupiter dog-and-pony that DEC did for us at UChicago. CI was touted as new for the Jupiter, and there was no indication that it would be retrofitted to older 36-bit systems. That was in 1982. When TOPS-20 v6 was field-tested at Stanford, the Digital muffins were all excited because the CI had been made available for the KL processors in spite of the 1983 cancellation of Jupiter. That was in 1986. I think that any documentation from Digital which suggests that the CI was intended for anything other than the Jupiter is revisionism in extremis. Just my observations, of course. YMMV. OIMACTTA. And all that. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 14:26:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 12:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: strange Honeywell system Message-ID: <1360182372.50692.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 7:24 AM PST Allison wrote: >On 02/05/2013 07:03 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> interesting if you live on the west coast >> >> somewhat less so when you live in New Jersey. >> especially when you have no knowledge of its innards. the seller speaks of the possibility of it having a rare IBM processor. some people consider the 486 rare >> >I find that last statement funny. There will always be people who "grew up" in different times and environments who find different things interesting. I see no reason to disparage them. Sometimes you just like something. I am most definitely not a DEC *minded* person. But I used to like and kind of miss my old DEC 486 pizza.box. And my statement was meant to be funny in case it seemed vague. >I have a small format (for 1990) 386sx/25 board I keep for emergencies. >I have a SIIG box with a 386/16 for a router. >I have two Dell 486sx (486dx/66 without external cache) pizza boxes >and a coffee can of 286/386/486 chips I think I haven't tossed yet. > >The 486 PCs and the 386 board are saved as I need them to use for >ISA-8 and ISA-16 board hosts. Other wise I consider them junk >and they will be tossed as junk if and when they die. Heavens please get rid of some of that trash Allison! Just save me any multibus boards you happen to have. It's always nice hearing from Allison. And though she for the most part holds Intel in contempt, I did actually hear her say some of my pseudos were on the cool side. >Allison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 6 14:36:45 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 12:36:45 -0800 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5112BEDD.5090407@sydex.com> On 02/06/2013 11:39 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I *may* have a chart on this somewhere... IIRC only the DEC drives can > read them, the Quantum branded ones can't. Ah, that was easy to > google. Looks like a TK87 is the last drive. > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_7762.html Just what I was looking for, thanks! I hate dealing with old tapes--anyone want to sub-contract on the part of a job that includes 15 9-track and 2 TK-50s? I'm assuming they're all from DEC gear (probably a VAX-something-or-the-other). Let me know privately if you're interested. --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 14:50:26 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 07:50:26 +1100 Subject: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: NaTasha Morgan-Lipscomb > To: vcf at vintage.org > Subject: Burroughs Redactor II > Re: Burroughs Redactor II On IRC we went looking for pictures of this word processing system, we found this: http://i.imgur.com/ZWOl9cW.jpg So it appears it might be otherwise known as the Burroughs System 240 (and later the System 250 - for the Redactor III), the full title: Burroughs R II System 240 and Burroughs R III System 250. "...also available with triple diskette transports." If someone finds better pictures please point the way. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 6 15:15:08 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:15:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay Message-ID: BTW, that Hazeltine 1500 is mine. :( Still working on this. I've gone silent only because I am inundated with legal issues presently, working my way through each. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 6 15:50:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:50:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1360187455.56986.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://i.imgur.com/ZWOl9cW.jpg C: wow they used to be based in Yip-Yip-Yaphank. Never knew it. Sperry/Unisys was in Central Islip or something. That I knew. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 16:21:34 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 14:21:34 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5112D76E.50806@gmail.com> On 2/6/2013 1:15 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > BTW, that Hazeltine 1500 is mine. > I think they are talking about a different one in New York http://www.ebay.com/itm/261165631166 and not the 1552 that sold before from Stockton. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 6 17:46:10 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 16:46:10 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 1500 on ebay In-Reply-To: <5112D76E.50806@gmail.com> References: <5112D76E.50806@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <5112D76E.50806 at gmail.com>, mc68010 writes: > I think they are talking about a different one in New York > http://www.ebay.com/itm/261165631166 and not the 1552 that sold before > from Stockton. Correct. It never was property of Sellam. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 18:34:51 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 00:34:51 +0000 Subject: Big Iron for sale Message-ID: <805127939-1360197293-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1774264058-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> I reposted for you on the vintage computer forums too (if you get some replies from names you don't recognise here). Best of luck! - John from vcf past From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 6 20:45:09 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 21:45:09 -0500 Subject: Wanted Apollo PSU - Re: Apollo 700-series boxes available In-Reply-To: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> References: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> If anyone is parting out an Apollo or has spare PSU's, I am looking for a unit for an HP Apollo 735/125. --Toby From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 20:51:02 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 21:51:02 -0500 Subject: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1360187455.56986.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360187455.56986.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hazeltine was out on Long Island too? I never bought their military stuff, but I did use some of their terminals. On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > http://i.imgur.com/ZWOl9cW.jpg > > C: wow they used to be based in Yip-Yip-Yaphank. Never knew it. Sperry/Unisys was in Central Islip or something. That I knew. From filipmaj at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 22:12:37 2013 From: filipmaj at gmail.com (Filip Maj) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 23:12:37 -0500 Subject: Selling a DEC RX-02 Floppy Drive Message-ID: I am selling a DEC RX-02 Floppy drive. I don't have anything to test it with currently so selling AS-IS. Seems to turn on no problem though. Selling for $400 + shipping or best offer. Seems to be half of what the going rate is on Ebay. Images here: http://imgur.com/a/LjTLw Please email me at filipmaj at gmail.com if interested. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Wed Feb 6 22:15:22 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 20:15:22 -0800 Subject: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) In-Reply-To: <1360187455.56986.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <2BDD3DB5200.000006C4n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com > Sent: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:50:55 -0800 (PST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Burroughs Redactor II (fwd) > > > > http://i.imgur.com/ZWOl9cW.jpg > > C: wow they used to be based in Yip-Yip-Yaphank. Never knew it. > Sperry/Unisys was in Central Islip or something. That I knew. I used to do field service on these R-II's in the early 80's. This system was originally designed and built by the Redactron corporation, of Yank-Pank. It originally used dual high-speed digital cassette tapes (using a metalized leader). Shortly after, Burroughs purchased Redactron, and then they made the move to floppy disks. The social security facility in Baltimore had quite a few of them. It utilized a Qume daisy-wheel printer. The thing I liked the most about this system, was that the CRT was vertically oriented; you could see an entire legal-sized page without having to scroll up/down. The later R-III had a square CRT, and was not as convenient to use IMHO. That unit in Maryland was VERY likely sold by the GrayMar Co., of Baltimore. We were the Burroughs Word Processing (nee Redactron) dealer there. ____________________________________________________________ FREE ONLINE PHOTOSHARING - Share your photos online with your friends and family! Visit http://www.inbox.com/photosharing to find out more! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 6 22:32:05 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 20:32:05 -0800 Subject: strange Honeywell system In-Reply-To: References: <20130205112328.537c2f65@asrock.bcwi.net> <51116789.1030708@att.net> Message-ID: <51132E45.8020408@jwsss.com> On 2/5/2013 9:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That's my thought as well. I worked on a lot of old Honeywell systems > (both Mini and Mainframes) in the early to mid-90's, and it doesn't > look anything like the gear I worked on. > > Zane > > I looked into my notes more and the systems Ultimate used (per my previous post) were Honeywell Bull 1400's. I am certain they are ones that we had samples of. However our actual shpped machines were the 1400. They strongly resembled this unit. Ultimate shifted to a completely different strategy cross compiling their entire pile of software into C code and then running it on RS6000's so they never bought any of the other sample machines, and just returned them. thanks Jim > > At 3:05 PM -0600 2/5/13, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> mighta been a industrial machean >> >> On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:11 PM, steve shumaker wrote: >> >>> this was on Ebay with a hidden reserve and didn't sell... >>> google came up completely empty on the model info. closest thing >>> was a >>> B1800 which is clearly *not* the same vintage >>> Since Honeywell went Honeywell-Bull in the mid 80s? this should >>> precede >>> that... >>> >>> ended listings item 290852029412 >>> >>> anyone recognize what it is? >>> >>> >>> steve >>> >>> > > From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 6 22:54:37 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 05:54:37 +0100 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5113338D.8000903@e-bbes.com> On 2013-02-06 20:39, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:24 AM -0800 2/6/13, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I remember that the old DEC TK-50 DLT drives would leave me red-faced >> at the end of the day. However, I'm wondering what the *latest* drive >> (i.e. most advanced) is that can still *read* the old TK50 tapes? Can >> one go as far as a TK85? Later? >> >> I suspect that a DLT IV drive wouldn't stand a chance. >> >> Anyone have experience with this? >> >> --Chuck >> > > I *may* have a chart on this somewhere... IIRC only the DEC drives can > read them, the Quantum branded ones can't. Ah, that was easy to > google. Looks like a TK87 is the last drive. Sorry to jump in, without being able to check in my garage. They are two version out there of the Tx87. I think the "normal" Tx87 and the Tx87-N. Only the later can read the tk50/tk70. They even have a LED in the front, which shows the "tk50/tk70" mode. Cheers From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 6 23:36:48 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2013 21:36:48 -0800 Subject: TK-50 tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <5113338D.8000903@e-bbes.com> References: <5112ADF1.8000701@sydex.com> <5113338D.8000903@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <51133D70.2090301@sydex.com> On 02/06/2013 08:54 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Sorry to jump in, without being able to check in my garage. > They are two version out there of the Tx87. I think the "normal" Tx87 > and the Tx87-N. Only the later can read the tk50/tk70. They even have a > LED in the front, which shows the "tk50/tk70" mode. According to the chart posted earlier, it's the "-N" varieties that are NOT TK50-TK70 compatible. --Chuck From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Feb 6 16:39:04 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 17:39:04 -0500 Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society for good or ill. Vintage computers, the beginning era, has been subsumed by a technology so rapidly advancing it threatens to overwhelm us yet I still look back with fondness and I hope we can revive some of that era?s experimentation if only to validate a true hacker ethic. Murray-- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 7 11:16:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:16:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote: > I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer > became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by > experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the > computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of > the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but > who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society > for good or ill. no No NO NO! 30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats, nerds and geeks. "Consumer electronics is too important to let them [technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it." From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 7 12:25:42 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:25:42 -0700 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> On 2/7/13 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote: >> I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer >> became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by >> experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the >> computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of >> the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but >> who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society >> for good or ill. > > no > No > NO > NO! > 30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats, > nerds and geeks. > "Consumer electronics is too important to let them > [technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it." LOL! Ain't that the truth! :-D Dave Land Land Computer Service > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 7 12:41:58 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 10:41:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Dave Land wrote: > On 2/7/13 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote: >>> I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer >>> became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by >>> experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the >>> computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of >>> the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but >>> who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society >>> for good or ill. >> >> no >> No >> NO >> NO! >> 30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats, >> nerds and geeks. >> "Consumer electronics is too important to let them >> [technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it." > > > LOL! Ain't that the truth! :-D > An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an MBA couldn't be in any position above the janitor. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 7 13:57:29 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:57:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, geneb wrote: > An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an MBA > couldn't be in any position above the janitor. Please don't destroy the quality of the custodial staff! We need them! HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while. But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 0.859 semesters before I go after those benefits! From jon at jonworld.com Thu Feb 7 14:04:09 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 15:04:09 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while. > But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political > campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California > Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher > retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and > abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP? There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.) After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 7 14:05:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 12:05:43 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> On 02/07/2013 10:41 AM, geneb wrote: > An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an > MBA couldn't be in any position above the janitor. Brings to mind that Nortel, a big presence in the valley back when they were Northern Telecom is, as of yesterday, a "was". And it wasn't because they didn't have a great portfolio of patents--just inept management. Someone should write a book called "How a bunch of yahoos could take a profitable 120-year old company and reduce it to garbage". The icing on the cake was when the CEO sued the not-quite-dead corpse for a billion dollars in order to get himself on the list of creditors during bankruptcy. It's amazing how destructive an MBA-type can be. Carly Fiorina, for example. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 7 14:23:15 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:23:15 -0600 Subject: Telebit modem card In-Reply-To: References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <009101ce0570$f5acc660$e1065320$@com> Perhaps these might help? http://www.cisco.com/en/US/docs/ios/11_2/access/command/reference/3rappmdm.h tml http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/personal/telebit.html http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/trailblazer.txt Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Telebit modem card I found an old Telebit modem card. I believe it is a Traiblazer, nota Trailblazer+. I was wondering if anyone had a list of the commandset for it.I can find the Traiblazer+ on the web but not the original Trailblazer.I realize it is a superset of the orignal but need to know what changed.The card is unusual, in that it has a 68K, a TMS32010, MC2661 andthe 8250.I would guess the 8250 is just for the bus interface ( PC board ) andit used the 2661 for serializing data.It looks like this may have been the orignal ADSL concept. It was saidto use 512 channels, each with a maximum speed of 6 baud, in the PEP mode.An interesting modem.Dwight ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6050 - Release Date: 01/22/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 7 14:28:05 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:28:05 -0600 Subject: Telebit modem card In-Reply-To: References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <009201ce0571$a2c50fb0$e84f2f10$@com> See also: http://books.google.com/books?id=0DsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Telebit+tr ailblazer+command+set&source=bl&ots=IW-8b9U6GQ&sig=3OFv9w61QC2wRFpAYHxWZD3Bv P8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qg0UUaWyPKSi2gWitIHYDQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Telebit% 20trailblazer%20command%20set&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=fS8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Telebit+tr ailblazer+command+set&source=bl&ots=qUIJoAGyPI&sig=4UENp_Qy1XJMPkEZpLwWX9xfX 5o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qg0UUaWyPKSi2gWitIHYDQ&ved=0CGsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Telebit% 20trailblazer%20command%20set&f=false http://nsrc.org/lowcost_tools/modems/telebit_modem.html http://www.4crawler.com/Docs/modems/fix-telebit.txt Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:16 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Telebit modem card I found an old Telebit modem card. I believe it is a Traiblazer, nota Trailblazer+. I was wondering if anyone had a list of the commandset for it.I can find the Traiblazer+ on the web but not the original Trailblazer.I realize it is a superset of the orignal but need to know what changed.The card is unusual, in that it has a 68K, a TMS32010, MC2661 andthe 8250.I would guess the 8250 is just for the bus interface ( PC board ) andit used the 2661 for serializing data.It looks like this may have been the orignal ADSL concept. It was saidto use 512 channels, each with a maximum speed of 6 baud, in the PEP mode.An interesting modem.Dwight ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6050 - Release Date: 01/22/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 7 14:29:33 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:29:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, geneb wrote: >> An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an MBA >> couldn't be in any position above the janitor. > > Please don't destroy the quality of the custodial staff! > We need them! > Ohh good point. They're really not qualified to be full janitors anyway. How about Janitorial Assistant in Charge of Licking Mops Clean? That shouldn't tax them TOO much. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 7 14:36:12 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 12:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/07/2013 10:41 AM, geneb wrote: > >> An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an >> MBA couldn't be in any position above the janitor. > > Brings to mind that Nortel, a big presence in the valley back when they were > Northern Telecom is, as of yesterday, a "was". And it wasn't because they > didn't have a great portfolio of patents--just inept management. Someone > should write a book called "How a bunch of yahoos could take a profitable > 120-year old company and reduce it to garbage". > Any technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 7 15:25:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 13:25:51 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> On 02/07/2013 12:36 PM, geneb wrote: > Any technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a > significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet. The same could be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for management--except that some government official (probably a classmate) bought into the "too big to fail" argument. It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of knowing. Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets) and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them, Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would operate. Probably not much difference. --CHuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 7 15:34:20 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 16:34:20 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2013 04:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Any technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a >> significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet. > > The same could be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for > management--except that some government official (probably a classmate) > bought into the "too big to fail" argument. > > It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the > most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of > knowing. > > Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets) > and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them, > Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would > operate. Probably not much difference. In other words: "Fucking SUITS!" -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 7 15:46:32 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:46:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 7, 13 11:57:29 am Message-ID: > HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while. > But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political > campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California > Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher > retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and > abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP? A couple of years ago I gave a talk on the HP9866A thermal printer. Much of the talk was serious, for example I described all 32 states of the control state machine. But at the start I compared the printer to its most obvious competitor, the ASR33 and pointed out how quiet the HP thermal printer was. I then mentioed that there was a continuous backgorund whirring noise. You might think that's just the cooling fan. In fact it's 'Bill and Dave' rotating in thair graves in repsonse to recent changes at the once-great company :-) -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 16:01:07 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:01:07 -0200 Subject: Vintage era References: Message-ID: > I then mentioed that there was a continuous backgorund whirring noise. > You might think that's just the cooling fan. In fact it's 'Bill and > Dave' rotating in thair graves in repsonse to recent changes at the > once-great company :-) Thanks for a loud laugh! From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 7 16:16:44 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 14:16:44 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the same as the bean counters which were the original topic. I think the general topic of having people who are locked on short term performance and measures which have nothing to do with technical excellence are valid points. The fact that all companies have been broken by this in general is more than just a problem for technology companies. The whole economy is now essentially governed by sociopathic entities with nothing to loose or feel if they overstep their bounds or hurt other entities. As long as dollars are the only object it will only get worse. Used to be there were other goals. On 2/7/2013 1:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/07/2013 04:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Any technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a >>> significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet. >> The same could be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for >> management--except that some government official (probably a classmate) >> bought into the "too big to fail" argument. >> >> It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the >> most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of >> knowing. >> >> Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets) >> and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them, >> Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would >> operate. Probably not much difference. > In other words: "Fucking SUITS!" > From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Feb 7 16:18:22 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 22:18:22 +0000 Subject: Substitute batteries for IBM 9404 B10 In-Reply-To: <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <373B6FFA-DD49-4E14-A0B7-04A5E5926A90@isallthat.com> Hi -- Does anyone know what the specification is for the clock battery on an IBM9404 B10 (AS/400) clock battery. I can't find anything that's explicitly a rating on it, and nowhere can I find the spec by part number. I wondered if anyone might know P/N 6495395 68mm x 15mm cylindrical with leads. Thanks, Colin Eby From wilson at dbit.com Thu Feb 7 17:23:25 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 18:23:25 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130207232325.GA5731@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 04:34:20PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > In other words: "Fucking SUITS!" Ahhhh there it is. I was hoping you'd chime in! :-) John Wilson D Bit From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 16:38:17 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 17:38:17 -0500 Subject: Substitute batteries for IBM 9404 B10 In-Reply-To: <373B6FFA-DD49-4E14-A0B7-04A5E5926A90@isallthat.com> References: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> <373B6FFA-DD49-4E14-A0B7-04A5E5926A90@isallthat.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone know what the specification is for the clock battery on an IBM9404 B10 (AS/400) clock battery. I can't find anything that's explicitly a rating on it, and nowhere can I find the spec by part number. I wondered if anyone might know P/N 6495395 68mm x 15mm cylindrical with leads. 4.8 Volt NiCd. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 7 16:41:21 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:41:21 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207232325.GA5731@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <20130207232325.GA5731@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <51142D91.10901@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2013 06:23 PM, John Wilson wrote: >> In other words: "Fucking SUITS!" > > Ahhhh there it is. I was hoping you'd chime in! :-) I waited as long as I could stand it. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 16:50:13 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:50:13 +1100 Subject: Substitute batteries for IBM 9404 B10 In-Reply-To: References: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> <373B6FFA-DD49-4E14-A0B7-04A5E5926A90@isallthat.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Does anyone know what the specification is for the clock battery on an IBM9404 B10 (AS/400) clock battery. on my 9406-E20 IIRC I used three x AA (1.5V) = 4.5V and it seemed happy enough. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 7 17:54:24 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 15:54:24 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> On 02/07/2013 02:16 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people > will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the > execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is > certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the > same as the bean counters which were the original topic. So you maintain that the banks had absolutely nothing to do with the current recession or LIBOR manipulation games? In particular, the large investment banks aren't responsible for any of it? Oh, okay. Suum cuique. --Chuck From colineby at isallthat.com Thu Feb 7 17:55:33 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:55:33 +0000 Subject: Substitute batteries for IBM 9404 B10 In-Reply-To: References: <5111EDB4.9040201@sydex.com> <51131535.3050804@telegraphics.com.au> <373B6FFA-DD49-4E14-A0B7-04A5E5926A90@isallthat.com> Message-ID: <51C7C17E-8327-41E7-9107-D4E7387242D3@isallthat.com> Looks like the exact substitute would be 4 x 1/3AA NiCd or NiMh heat shrinked in series. That would actually fit. Any other combination of 4x NiCds would have to be velcro'd inside the case. On 7 Feb 2013, at 22:50, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Does anyone know what the specification is for the clock battery on an IBM9404 B10 (AS/400) clock battery. > > on my 9406-E20 IIRC I used three x AA (1.5V) = 4.5V and it seemed happy enough. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 7 18:02:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 19:02:40 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511440A0.4040603@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2013 06:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people >> will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the >> execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is >> certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the >> same as the bean counters which were the original topic. > > So you maintain that the banks had absolutely nothing to do with the > current recession or LIBOR manipulation games? In particular, the large > investment banks aren't responsible for any of it? > > Oh, okay. Suum cuique. ROFLMAO!! I reiterate, with emphasis: "FUCKING SUITS!!" Damn Wall Street criminals. And yet, like Lindsay Lohan, they always seem to avoid jail time. "Things that make you go 'hmmmm'". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 7 18:10:39 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 16:10:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> > I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people Do they wear suits? From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 7 20:11:57 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 18:11:57 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51145EED.2000107@jwsss.com> On 2/7/2013 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people > Do they wear suits? childish a bit. I don't condemn all banking people any more than I want to be condemned because there are people spending time and technical talent at a high level creating spambots. And I do know a number of excellent technical people who wear suits. My buddy does embellish it by having a pocket protector in his inside pocket with enough tools to service a humvee. And again there are people on the list who are married to people in the banking field whose motives and integrity I don't question. The difference here with bankers are whether they are ones you can meet and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack). Jim From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Feb 7 20:30:39 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 03:30:39 +0100 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130208023036.GA16511@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 12:05:43PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's amazing how destructive an MBA-type can be. Carly Fiorina, for > example. I have it on good authority that there was quite a bit of dancing at HP when they finally managed to kick her out the door. Unfortunately, by that time she had already managed to do a _lot_ of damage. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 7 22:21:44 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:21:44 -0800 Subject: Telebit modem card In-Reply-To: <009201ce0571$a2c50fb0$e84f2f10$@com> References: <50FF5A03.6020902@bitsavers.org>, , , , <009201ce0571$a2c50fb0$e84f2f10$@com> Message-ID: Hi Cindy I think I've seem most all of these. The problem is they are always talkingabout the Trailblazer+ and not the original Trialblazer. I have a completelist of the Trailblazer+ but need to know which commands were missing ordifferent for the Trailblazer.Thanks for the effort though.Dwight > From: sales at elecplus.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Telebit modem card > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 14:28:05 -0600 > > See also: > http://books.google.com/books?id=0DsEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=Telebit+tr > ailblazer+command+set&source=bl&ots=IW-8b9U6GQ&sig=3OFv9w61QC2wRFpAYHxWZD3Bv > P8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qg0UUaWyPKSi2gWitIHYDQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Telebit% > 20trailblazer%20command%20set&f=false > > http://books.google.com/books?id=fS8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA47&lpg=PA47&dq=Telebit+tr > ailblazer+command+set&source=bl&ots=qUIJoAGyPI&sig=4UENp_Qy1XJMPkEZpLwWX9xfX > 5o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Qg0UUaWyPKSi2gWitIHYDQ&ved=0CGsQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Telebit% > 20trailblazer%20command%20set&f=false > > http://nsrc.org/lowcost_tools/modems/telebit_modem.html > > http://www.4crawler.com/Docs/modems/fix-telebit.txt > > > Cindy Croxton > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 12:16 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Telebit modem card > > I found an old Telebit modem card. I believe it is a Traiblazer, nota > Trailblazer+. I was wondering if anyone had a list of the commandset for > it.I can find the Traiblazer+ on the web but not the original Trailblazer.I > realize it is a superset of the orignal but need to know what changed.The > card is unusual, in that it has a 68K, a TMS32010, MC2661 andthe 8250.I > would guess the 8250 is just for the bus interface ( PC board ) andit used > the 2661 for serializing data.It looks like this may have been the orignal > ADSL concept. It was saidto use 512 channels, each with a maximum speed of 6 > baud, in the PEP mode.An interesting modem.Dwight > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2639/6050 - Release Date: 01/22/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6087 - Release Date: 02/07/13 > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 7 22:54:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 20:54:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. But if the do good granny state LIBERALS would have stayed out of the business of deciding who should own their own home (that would be everyone), things wouldn't be anywhere near as messy as they are. An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! Yes the banks and the suits and the boogeyman are culpable. But I'll repeat if they were left alone and allowed to do what they're supposed to do and not dole out risky loans, we wouldn't be here. If you haven't done research into the root causes of this crisis, you just don't want to know. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 3:54 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 02/07/2013 02:16 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people >> will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the >> execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is >> certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the >> same as the bean counters which were the original topic. > >So you maintain that the banks had absolutely nothing to do with the current recession or LIBOR manipulation games? In particular, the large investment banks aren't responsible for any of it? > >Oh, okay. Suum cuique. > >--Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 7 23:13:43 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:13:43 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51145EED.2000107@jwsss.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> <51145EED.2000107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51148987.5000008@sydex.com> On 02/07/2013 06:11 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > The difference here with bankers are whether they are ones you can meet > and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in > mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack). If it's a community banker in plain old retail banking, I have no problems with a person. But when they say "investment banking", "hedge funds", etc., I hold my nose and consider the person a menace to society. I'll wager right now that none of the LIBOR manipulators ever see a day of prison, although a better example of racketeering I would be hard put to discover. Paltry fines is all their parent establishments ever get. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 23:15:23 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:15:23 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511489EB.2090003@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! [Citation needed.] From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Feb 7 23:26:43 2013 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 21:26:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 11/35 questions Message-ID: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm just getting to know my "new" 11/35 and have some questions about the current configuration. 1) Was the M981 (unibus jumper/terminator) unique to the 11/35(40)? It's not in the field guide but is mentioned in the Unibus Troubleshooting Manual. I'm assuming it provides near-end termination for the bus but it's curious that the termination portion is on the far side fo the jumper. The only other examples of the M981 that I've seen are in other 11/35 systems. 2) The system has 32KW of core - 8K in the chassis in an MM-11S system unit and 24K in a separate CMI Expandacore box. The MM-11L unit is a little strange in that it is composed of the expected G110 control module and G231 drive module but the core stack is an H215 (parity) rather than H214 (non-parity) unit. Does this matter? If it does, how would it affect operation? 3) This is a "vanilla" system with none of the available CPU options. It does, however, have an M7840 EAE board (KE11-B) which supports hardware multiply and divide. Does this make sense? 4) The system is in a BA11-DB(?) case - 10 1/2" high with H750 power supply on the right side (from the front of the chassis). As received, there are no covers for top, bottom or power supply. Anyone have any spares, or if not, pictures and/or measurements of the original parts? Shouldn't be too hard to fabricate but it would be nice to be as original as possible. OK - that's all for now! Thanks, Jack From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 00:17:18 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 22:17:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360304238.54452.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! > >[Citation needed.] > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 00:33:09 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:33:09 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360304238.54452.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360304238.54452.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51149C25.3020104@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: > > GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS > > Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? > > This is just like the emails I get from my 70 year old aunt except with all the RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE YOU MUST READ THIS !!! Stop NoBAMA !!!111 in the subject header. Hopefully we'll get back to old computers before we are all marched off to the FEMA camps and can't read email anymore. Well the rest of you anyway since I'm all good with Obama. He sent me a Christmas card so I think we're cool. I expect it will get me pass the the checkpoints. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 01:02:02 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:02:02 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360304238.54452.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360304238.54452.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5114A2EA.9040309@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: > > GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS > > Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? > Well, a statement with that many exclamation points and question marks must be well thought out and worth my time. And the first hit for your Google search is a link to an article on the Daily Caller, I considered reading it but then I pondered whether watching paint dry might be more informative. (I came to the conclusion that it would be.) - Josh > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! >> [Citation needed.] >> > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 01:17:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:17:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360307846.94942.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 10:33 PM PST mc68010 wrote: >On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: >> >> GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS >> >> Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? >> >> >This is just like the emails I get from my 70 year old aunt except with all the RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE:RE YOU MUST READ THIS !!! Stop NoBAMA !!!111 in the subject header. > >Hopefully we'll get back to old computers before we are all marched off to the FEMA camps and can't read email anymore. Well the rest of you anyway since I'm all good with Obama. He sent me a Christmas card so I think we're cool. I expect it will get me pass the the checkpoints. No one is spamming you genius. Someone requested a citation. I just thoght I'd perform a public service and educate them. And it's absolutely uplifting to see yet another ostrich bury their head in the ground. Yes this a forum for discussing vintage gear, you don't have to love the occasional and brief digression, and this one was started by an old timer (on the list LOL). Fema camps my lord. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 01:22:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:22:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:02 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: >> >> GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS >> >> Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? >> > >Well, a statement with that many exclamation points and question marks >must be well thought out and worth my time. > >And the first hit for your Google search is a link to an article on the >Daily Caller, I considered reading it but then I pondered whether >watching paint dry might be more informative. (I came to the conclusion >that it would be.) > >- Josh > >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! >> [Citation needed.] >> >> > From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Feb 7 03:52:18 2013 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (paul0926 at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:52:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1736290800.857996.1360230738996.JavaMail.root@sz0138a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> If you are interested in the perspective of hackers, look for this book "Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution" for a good contrast. Paul -----Original Message----- From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk Sent: 2013-02-07 07:58:28 +0000 Subject: Vintage era I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society for good or ill. Vintage computers, the beginning era, has been subsumed by a technology so rapidly advancing it threatens to overwhelm us yet I still look back with fondness and I hope we can revive some of that era?s experimentation if only to validate a true hacker ethic. Murray-- From doug at doughq.com Thu Feb 7 06:10:51 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 23:10:51 +1100 Subject: My ZX-Spectrum on YouTube In-Reply-To: References: <1A80FD4B0FB94AA9A7D37421D4324173@tababook> Message-ID: Neither can I, All I can say is that it works with the multifunction TV that is on the wall in my workshop. It accepts Antenna (TV), HDMI, Composite, S-VIDEO and VGA. Doug On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > > Does this mod works with LCD monitors (with composite input)? > Sometimes > > the video signal isn't 100% what the LCD expects and it varies the > bright of > > image. > > I can't answer that. My LCD monitor doesn't have composite input. > > Terry (Tez) > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Thu Feb 7 12:44:00 2013 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 11:44:00 -0700 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote: > > I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer > > became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by > > experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the > > computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of > > the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but > > who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society > > for good or ill. > > The people who consumerized computers weren't the nerds, geeks, or technocrats... If they were, names like Ed Roberts, Tim Patterson, Steve Wozniak, Bill Joy, Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Jonathan Sachs, Rob Barnaby, Gordon Letwin, and maybe even Paul Allen (to name a few) would have more public recognition than names like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Seymour Rubinstein, or Mitch Kapor... It's the marketers and businessmen who consumerize, the implementers and innovators never steer anything (or get any real credit). From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 7 19:12:02 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 17:12:02 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <51140917.1020800@sydex.com> <51141BDF.5090308@sydex.com> <51141DDC.9080600@neurotica.com> <511427CC.8010304@jwsss.com> <51143EB0.9060106@sydex.com> <20130207161022.S6564@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511450E2.2000005@jwsss.com> On 2/7/2013 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people > Do they wear suits? childish a bit. I don't condemn all banking people any more than I want to be condemned because there are people spending time and technical talent at a high level creating spambots. And I do know a number of excellent technical people who wear suits. My buddy does embellish it by having a pocket protector in his inside pocket with enough tools to service a humvee. And again there are people on the list who are married to people in the banking field whose motives and integrity I don't question. The difference here with bankers are whether they are ones you can meet and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack). Jim From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 01:34:36 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2013 23:34:36 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360307846.94942.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360307846.94942.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5114AA8C.1040206@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 11:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > No one is spamming you genius. Someone requested a citation. I just > thoght I'd perform a public service and educate them. And it's > absolutely uplifting to see yet another ostrich bury their head in the > ground. Yes this a forum for discussing vintage gear, you don't have > to love the occasional and brief digression, and this one was started > by an old timer (on the list LOL). Fema camps my lord. I love the less than occasional digressions actually. Not telling you to stop. Just having a laugh. So you don't believe in the whole UN agenda 21 and the FEMA camps paranoia thing my aunt does ? Cattle cars in train station setup to relocate people ? Chemtrails and fluoride in the water stuff ? From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 02:07:07 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 00:07:07 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5114B22B.2080809@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. Have you considered that the problem might in fact be you? (BTW, your description of Mexicans as "unskilled" and "illiterate" masses says a number of things about your character, none of them good). - Josh > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:02 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: >>> >>> GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS >>> >>> Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? >>> >> Well, a statement with that many exclamation points and question marks >> must be well thought out and worth my time. >> >> And the first hit for your Google search is a link to an article on the >> Daily Caller, I considered reading it but then I pondered whether >> watching paint dry might be more informative. (I came to the conclusion >> that it would be.) >> >> - Josh >> >>> ------------------------------ >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! >>> [Citation needed.] >>> >>> > From colineby at isallthat.com Fri Feb 8 02:14:11 2013 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 08:14:11 +0000 Subject: System/36 manuals In-Reply-To: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> References: <50DDD23A.5050706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <803723EF-23C7-407F-806A-3F92713B9F63@isallthat.com> Al, I've been slaving over a scanner lately, and wanted to know if you were interested in the output. I've done the S/36 Source Entry Utility Manual and Display Design Manual recently. They are available is colour TIFF at 600dpi, or any converted subset of that you'd prefer. Last I checked you wanted collection of B&W 400 DPI Group4 compressed TIFF. Then send along in tar ball format? Should I send you that lot? -Colin On 28 Dec 2012, at 17:09, Al Kossow wrote: > I've been working on getting my S36 maint drawing set uploaded, and realized > that I don't have very many manuals for the system. Does anyone have any that > they'd be willing to have scanned? > > From wilson at dbit.com Fri Feb 8 03:18:32 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 04:18:32 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130208091832.GA10819@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:44:00AM -0700, John Willis wrote: >The people who consumerized computers weren't the nerds, geeks, or >technocrats... >If they were, names like Ed Roberts, Tim Patterson, Steve Wozniak, Bill Joy, >Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Jonathan Sachs, Rob Barnaby, Gordon Letwin, >and maybe even Paul Allen (to name a few) would have more public >recognition >than names like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Seymour Rubinstein, or Mitch >Kapor... > >It's the marketers and businessmen who consumerize, the implementers and >innovators never steer anything (or get any real credit). It really bugged me back in the 70s/80s when we were regarded as outcast weirdos, playing with our toys, when it was obvious to us that computers make doing *everything* easier/better. Yet the normals didn't seem to care. Now that a few decades have gone by and the whole thing has been balled up and sold to them, so they finally agree (at a shallow consumerish level), it's actually kind of spoiled some of the fun. John Wilson D Bit From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 02:42:01 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 00:42:01 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. In the 4th paragraph of said Daily Caller article, we have the following: "The [food stamp participation] partnership --- which was signed by former USDA Secretary Ann M. Veneman and Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs Luis Ernesto Derbez Bautista in *2004*..." Pretty sure Obama The Treasonous wasn't president in 2004. How's your "well thought out world view" working for you today? - Josh > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:02 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: >>> >>> GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS >>> >>> Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? >>> >> Well, a statement with that many exclamation points and question marks >> must be well thought out and worth my time. >> >> And the first hit for your Google search is a link to an article on the >> Daily Caller, I considered reading it but then I pondered whether >> watching paint dry might be more informative. (I came to the conclusion >> that it would be.) >> >> - Josh >> >>> ------------------------------ >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! >>> [Citation needed.] >>> >>> > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 06:54:33 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 07:54:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less > FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. But > if the do good granny state LIBERALS would have stayed out of the > business of deciding who should own their own home (that would be > everyone), things wouldn't be anywhere near as messy as they are. Sorry, I normally stay out of political flame-wars, but cannot let this go by without a rebuttal. Simply put: Check your facts with an authority other than Fox News before repeating this tired, right-wing rhetoric. There is a small kernel of truth in that Fannie-Mae and Freddie-Mac were under pressure to get more loans into under-served areas. However, the vast majority of shenanigans took place in the private sector which needed no impetus other than greed to throw underwriting guidelines overboard. The total default exposure from Fannie and Freddie as a result of congressional push was a tiny fraction of what such great American icons as Nationwide Finance ran up with no other push than desire for executive bonus. > to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how > people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, > anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about > TREASON!!! Yes the banks and the suits and the boogeyman are culpable. > But I'll repeat if they were left alone and allowed to do what they're > supposed to do and not dole out risky loans, we wouldn't be here. Left completely to their own devices, Wall Street would have tanked the world economy out of nothing more than sheer, unadulterated greed. If your much-hated Gub'mint hadn't backed up their malfeasance with billions of dollars of taxpayer money, the ensuing crash would have given the Great Depression competition for extremes of misery. And, guess what? The same forces that brought you the great recession are fighting tooth and nail to gut any semblance of regulation so they CAN DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN! > If you haven't done research into the root causes of this crisis, you > just don't want to know. My friend, I have done my research. If you used sources other than Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the Murdock media empire you'd not be so quick to buy into and spout this nonsense. -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 06:59:24 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:59:24 +0100 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Jack Rubin" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 6:26 AM To: "classiccomp list" Subject: 11/35 questions > I'm just getting to know my "new" 11/35 and have some questions about the > current configuration. > > > 1) Was the M981 (unibus jumper/terminator) unique to the 11/35(40)? It's > not in > the field guide but is mentioned in the Unibus Troubleshooting Manual. I'm > assuming it provides near-end termination for the bus but it's curious > that the > termination portion is on the far side fo the jumper. The only other > examples of > the M981 that I've seen are in other 11/35 systems. > > 2) The system has 32KW of core - 8K in the chassis in an MM-11S system > unit and > 24K in a separate CMI Expandacore box. The MM-11L unit is a little strange > in > that it is composed of the expected G110 control module and G231 drive > module > but the core stack is an H215 (parity) rather than H214 (non-parity) unit. > Does > this matter? If it does, how would it affect operation? > > 3) This is a "vanilla" system with none of the available CPU options. It > does, > however, have an M7840 EAE board (KE11-B) which supports hardware multiply > and > divide. Does this make sense? > > 4) The system is in a BA11-DB(?) case - 10 1/2" high with H750 power > supply on > the right side (from the front of the chassis). As received, there are no > covers > for top, bottom or power supply. Anyone have any spares, or if not, > pictures > and/or measurements of the original parts? Shouldn't be too hard to > fabricate > but it would be nice to be as original as possible. > > OK - that's all for now! > > Thanks, > Jack 1) Well, regarding the M981, that is the module I have in my 11/35 too! I have all UNIBUS PDP-11, and indeed, I have seen this module only in the 11/35 (11/40). Not sure about the 11/20, I cannot check at the moment. I can *see* the 11/20, but access to it is nearly impossible. 2) If the core stack has a parity bit (core), but you do not have the parity control M7259 in the backplane, that bit is not used AFAIK. It does not harm either. 3) According the Fieldguide, the KE11-B can be installed instead of the KE11-A. That is the EIS board for the 11/35, -40. Note that the 11/35 has several jumpers that need to be set if you install EIS, FIS, or MMU. Even for the KW11 there is a jumper, IIRC. For the MMU you even must cut a wire on the backplane! But this is all clearly describes in the 11/40 CPU manual. 4) Maybe I have some metal plates, but I am in The Netherlands. And not everything is accessible at the moment ... Some pictures of your system would help ... - Henk, PA8PDP From FRED at miser.misernet.net Fri Feb 8 07:57:44 2013 From: FRED at miser.misernet.net (Fred) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 08:57:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 9 Message-ID: <01OPY0CUDNHE8WW2I9@MISER.MISERNET.NET> >From: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" 8-FEB-2013 00:22:45.52 >To: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" >CC: >Subj: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 9 >From: Dave McGuire > In other words: "Fucking SUITS!" set mode/type=delurk I couldn't have said it better myself, having first hand experience with suits and MBA types. Why are most MBA's that I have met (not all, mind you) borderline sociopaths? Is there some trait of sociopaths that draws them to be an MBA? If anyone is interested in an entertaining (albeit disgusting, in a professional sense) story, e-mail me off list. ObOnTopic: I posted this a long while ago to another tech oriented list I'm on, and I've seen folks here that overlap, so apologies for those that have already seen this. I'm hoping maybe I'll strike with someone here - I have a Telesign TS-16 moving red LED sign. I do not have the controller. I'd love to get the controller for it, or figure out how to talk to the 25 pin female connector on it (looks like a parallel port). I've tried serial, no luck. Tried parallel and while I got the devices attention (it cleared the screen and stopped scrolling) I have no idea what to send. Hard googling and searching only comes up with my post on the other list. I can't beleive this thing is that unobtanium, but I've been wrong before. ;) Cheers, Fred From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 08:22:31 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 12:22:31 -0200 Subject: Telesign TS-16 References: <01OPY0CUDNHE8WW2I9@MISER.MISERNET.NET> Message-ID: > ObOnTopic: I posted this a long while ago to another tech oriented list > I'm > on, and I've seen folks here that overlap, so apologies for those that > have > already seen this. I'm hoping maybe I'll strike with someone here - I > have a > Telesign TS-16 moving red LED sign. I do not have the controller. I'd > love > to get the controller for it, or figure out how to talk to the 25 pin > female > connector on it (looks like a parallel port). I've tried serial, no luck. > Tried parallel and while I got the devices attention (it cleared the > screen > and stopped scrolling) I have no idea what to send. Try Dan Gliebe at www.tigercam.com or www.gliebetronics.com, he's such a nice chap and if I'm not mistaken, he reverse engineered one of these panels years ago. I lent him some help at that moment. Since it was some 10 or 15 years ago, my mind is fuzzy on this subject. Hope that helps From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Feb 8 08:25:21 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 15:25:21 +0100 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5114AA8C.1040206@gmail.com> References: <1360307846.94942.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114AA8C.1040206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130208142521.GA9703@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:34:36PM -0800, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/7/2013 11:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >No one is spamming you genius. Someone requested a citation. I > >just thoght I'd perform a public service and educate them. And > >it's absolutely uplifting to see yet another ostrich bury their > >head in the ground. Yes this a forum for discussing vintage gear, > >you don't have to love the occasional and brief digression, and > >this one was started by an old timer (on the list LOL). Fema camps > >my lord. > > I love the less than occasional digressions actually. Not telling > you to stop. Just having a laugh. > > So you don't believe in the whole UN agenda 21 and the FEMA camps > paranoia thing my aunt does ? Cattle cars in train station setup to > relocate people ? Chemtrails and fluoride in the water stuff ? Yes, they definitely are after our precious bodily fluids. So I recommend that everyone only drinks rainwater and pure grain alcohol. Can't be too careful. SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 8 08:40:43 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 06:40:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or > worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well > thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and > their bleat(ing) goes on. You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here was replaced with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 8 08:43:04 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 06:43:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or >> worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well >> thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and >> their bleat(ing) goes on. > > In the 4th paragraph of said Daily Caller article, we have the following: > > "The [food stamp participation] partnership --- which was signed > > by former USDA Secretary Ann M. Veneman and Mexican Secretary of Foreign > Affairs Luis Ernesto Derbez Bautista in *2004*..." > > Pretty sure Obama The Treasonous wasn't president in 2004. How's your "well > thought out world view" working for you today? > Jeeze Josh, if you keep showing up with facts in the face of his wild-eyed supposition, I suspect he'll throw a tantrum. Hrm.. *grabs popcorn* Fact away! *laughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 8 09:24:52 2013 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:24:52 -0500 Subject: Surplus HD's Message-ID: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Looking for HD's for a friend of mine who does repair work on vintage systems and his supply of HD's has dried up so I'm working out a trade with him. Looking for: 3.5" SCSI HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) 2.5" IDE HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) Looking for around 20 of each type, must be working/tested condition... Would either buy them for $5 ea or work out a trade, email me off-list if you have some or can point me to someone who may have them, thanks. Curt From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 09:29:11 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:29:11 -0200 Subject: Vintage era References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or >> worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well >> thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and >> their bleat(ing) goes on. > You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here was replaced > with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? I feel some feelings between you two... :oD From chd at chdickman.com Fri Feb 8 09:52:15 2013 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:52:15 -0500 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:59 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > 3) > According the Fieldguide, the KE11-B can be installed instead of the > KE11-A. > That is the EIS board for the 11/35, -40. Note that the 11/35 has several > jumpers that need to be set if you install EIS, FIS, or MMU. Even for the > KW11 > there is a jumper, IIRC. For the MMU you even must cut a wire on the > backplane! > But this is all clearly describes in the 11/40 CPU manual. > Does the KE11-B fit into the processor slot used by the KE11-A? My PDP-11/40 has some indication that it had an EAE (sticker above the backplane has EAE in faded ink), but it has an EIS board. Are there any spare FIS options floating around? -chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 10:25:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 08:25:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360340749.57737.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> you're just jealous of me Jean and you know it ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:40 AM PST geneb wrote: >On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. > >You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here was replaced with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? > >g. > >-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 10:31:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 08:31:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage er Message-ID: <1360341108.79508.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> and Jean kindly keep your foreign farm lingo on your side of the border I don't know what herp derp is supposed to mean but it scares me frankly. I hope it isn"t something you're suffering from. Yuck ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:43 AM PST geneb wrote: >On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. >> >> In the 4th paragraph of said Daily Caller article, we have the following: >> >> "The [food stamp participation] partnership --- which was signed by former USDA Secretary Ann M. Veneman and Mexican Secretary of Foreign Affairs Luis Ernesto Derbez Bautista in *2004*..." >> >> Pretty sure Obama The Treasonous wasn't president in 2004. How's your "well thought out world view" working for you today? >> >Jeeze Josh, if you keep showing up with facts in the face of his wild-eyed supposition, I suspect he'll throw a tantrum. Hrm.. *grabs popcorn* Fact away! *laughs* > >g. > >-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 11:04:11 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:04:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360343051.98016.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> So the banks just one day decided to throw all caution to the wind. And you never even stop to ask why. Absolutely nothing to do with the fear of litigation. I already said the banks played their part. But the govt and the lawyers provided fertile ground for all the shenanigans. Go on youtube and take a look at what Barney Fag and Maxine Waters had to say when investigations of Fannie and Freddie were taking place. Yes this started long before Obama was president - the problem is liberal democrats, of which he is one if you haven't noticed, but my understanding is even he worked at firm which engaged in harassing banks into generating risky loans. Oh no. The whole crisis had nothing to do with the gov't wanting to get low income people into houses. It was just the evil banks devising this crap on their own. And granted.the loans were packaged and repackaged in some kind of effort to balance their books, which just caused everything to come crashing down. But just tell me - yes tell me what the Community Reinvestment Act has to do with responsible government. ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 4:54 AM PST Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > >> Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. But if the do good granny state LIBERALS would have stayed out of the business of deciding who should own their own home (that would be everyone), things wouldn't be anywhere near as messy as they are. > >Sorry, I normally stay out of political flame-wars, but cannot let this go by without a rebuttal. Simply put: Check your facts with an authority other than Fox News before repeating this tired, right-wing rhetoric. > >There is a small kernel of truth in that Fannie-Mae and Freddie-Mac were under pressure to get more loans into under-served areas. However, the vast majority of shenanigans took place in the private sector which needed no impetus other than greed to throw underwriting guidelines overboard. The total default exposure from Fannie and Freddie as a result of congressional push was a tiny fraction of what such great American icons as Nationwide Finance ran up with no other push than desire for executive bonus. > >> to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! Yes the banks and the suits and the boogeyman are culpable. But I'll repeat if they were left alone and allowed to do what they're supposed to do and not dole out risky loans, we wouldn't be here. > >Left completely to their own devices, Wall Street would have tanked the world economy out of nothing more than sheer, unadulterated greed. If your much-hated Gub'mint hadn't backed up their malfeasance with billions of dollars of taxpayer money, the ensuing crash would have given the Great Depression competition for extremes of misery. And, guess what? The same forces that brought you the great recession are fighting tooth and nail to gut any semblance of regulation so they CAN DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN! > >> If you haven't done research into the root causes of this crisis, you just don't want to know. > >My friend, I have done my research. If you used sources other than Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the Murdock media empire you'd not be so quick to buy into and spout this nonsense. > > > > >-- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 11:06:03 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:06:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360343163.15260.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I definitely do feel his herp derp pain. ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 7:29 AM PST Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. >> You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here was replaced with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? > > I feel some feelings between you two... :oD From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 8 11:24:18 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:24:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360340749.57737.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360340749.57737.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > you're just jealous of me Jean and you know it > You're entirely correct. I long to be mocked and ridiculed by everyone I'm in contact with for longer than five minutes. I strive to have an IQ that fluctuates with room temperature. WHY, OH WHY CAN'T I BE LIKE YOU?!? G. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 11:31:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 09:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 12:07 AM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. > >Have you considered that the problem might in fact be you? (BTW, your >description of Mexicans as "unskilled" and "illiterate" masses says a >number of things about your character, none of them good). I haven't any food stamps to give anyone, much less illegal, unskilled, illiterate Mexicans. How is it that you're so comfortable with your country's unwillingness to control it's borders??? And do you see doctors, lawyers, and engineers scurrying across the border? Countries like Australia run campaigns to attract SKILLED workers. Why should we be any different? > >- Josh > >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 11:02 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> On 2/7/2013 10:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> This warrants a top post not that I needed an excuse: >>> >>> GOOGLE - USDA, OBAMA, COMMERCIALS >>> >>> Or, though it scares me to think, you mean justify my calling his/their actions TREASONOUS, tell me who's welfare, for want of a much better term, they have in mind when conspiring with a foreign gov't to lure yet more unskilled, illiterate masses for the purpose of expanding the welfare state, insuring perpetual generations of low information voters. Not mine, and likely not yours. Who is the president supposed to be working for??? Foreign nationals!!!??? >>> >> Well, a statement with that many exclamation points and question marks >> must be well thought out and worth my time. >> >> And the first hit for your Google search is a link to an article on the >> Daily Caller, I considered reading it but then I pondered whether >> watching paint dry might be more informative. (I came to the conclusion >> that it would be.) >> >> - Josh >> >>> ------------------------------ >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 9:15 PM PST Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> On 2/7/2013 8:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> An add to the mix an administration who is running ads in Mehico explaining how people can get food stamps and whatnot once they get here. Can you say, anyone, high crimes and misdemeanors? Too difficult? How's about TREASON!!! >>> [Citation needed.] >>> >>> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 8 11:40:50 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 12:40:50 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511538A2.5090801@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 10:29 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real >>> or worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* >>> well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I >>> delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. >> You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here was >> replaced with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? > > I feel some feelings between you two... :oD Oh yes. I'm feelin' the love. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 8 12:03:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:03:40 -0500 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51153DFC.3010804@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 10:52 AM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Does the KE11-B fit into the processor slot used by the KE11-A? My > PDP-11/40 has some indication that it had an EAE (sticker above the > backplane has EAE in faded ink), but it has an EIS board. > > Are there any spare FIS options floating around? I *think* I have a couple KE11-B boards here. (Sadly no compatible machines to put them in.) I'll go check if you like; let me know. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 12:15:50 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:15:50 -0500 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: <51153DFC.3010804@neurotica.com> References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51153DFC.3010804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I *think* I have a couple KE11-B boards here. (Sadly no compatible > machines to put them in.) I'll go check if you like; let me know. You can put me on the list of interested parties. I am about to move my 11/20 from long-term storage to a place where I can work on it - it needs *lots* of restoration work since I recovered it from a dumpster, literally, and one of my goals is to try to get v1 UNIX running on it (which requires a KE11). I'm not in a hurry - I still have to repair lots of things and I have to come up with a way to replace the RS11 swap disk that UNIX is expecting, but once I get the CPU restored and the external memory cabinets fixed up and powered (and a missing core plane replaced), I can turn to diagnosing and repairing my RK11C, *then* I'll be in a place to worry about a small, fast swap disk. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 12:29:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> > > Affairs Luis Ernesto Derbez Bautista in *2004*..." > > Pretty sure Obama The Treasonous wasn't president in 2004. How's your "well > > thought out world view" working for you today? On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, geneb wrote: > Jeeze Josh, if you keep showing up with facts in the face of his wild-eyed > supposition, I suspect he'll throw a tantrum. Hrm.. *grabs popcorn* > Fact away! *laughs* But, but, but, . . . Back [not quite] ON topic: is there any PROOF that Obama never provided Titor with a 5100?? (Standing offer: In exchange for one-way transport back half a century, I will get and trade an IBM 5100, as well as start discrete portfolios to fund endeavors. If the transport is ROUND-TRIP, Dude you're getting a DELL 5100!) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 8 12:41:39 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:41:39 -0500 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51153DFC.3010804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <511546E3.4020403@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 01:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I *think* I have a couple KE11-B boards here. (Sadly no compatible >> machines to put them in.) I'll go check if you like; let me know. > > You can put me on the list of interested parties. I am about to move > my 11/20 from long-term storage to a place where I can work on it - it > needs *lots* of restoration work since I recovered it from a dumpster, > literally, and one of my goals is to try to get v1 UNIX running on it > (which requires a KE11). > > I'm not in a hurry - I still have to repair lots of things and I have > to come up with a way to replace the RS11 swap disk that UNIX is > expecting, but once I get the CPU restored and the external memory > cabinets fixed up and powered (and a missing core plane replaced), I > can turn to diagnosing and repairing my RK11C, *then* I'll be in a > place to worry about a small, fast swap disk. Ahh, if the KE11-B will run in an 11/20, then I'll be hanging onto one of them, as I'm working on getting an 11/20. I'd love to see v1 UNIX running on real iron. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 12:42:49 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:42:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage er In-Reply-To: <1360341108.79508.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360341108.79508.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130208103808.L24836@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Derp wrote: > Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, geneb wrote: > You realize of course that if every word you ever wrote here > was replaced with "Herp, derp!", the content would be the same? On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Derp wrote: > Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! Herp, derp! > and Jean kindly keep your foreign farm lingo on your side of the border > I don't know what herp derp is supposed to mean but it scares me > frankly. I hope it isn"t something you're suffering from. Yuck We're all suffering from it. From FRED at miser.misernet.net Fri Feb 8 12:44:48 2013 From: FRED at miser.misernet.net (Fred) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:44:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 10 Message-ID: <01OPYALX1VIA8WW2IF@MISER.MISERNET.NET> >From: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" 8-FEB-2013 10:08:45.32 >To: IN%"cctalk at classiccmp.org" >CC: >Subj: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 10 >From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" >Subject: Telesign TS-16 >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > Try Dan Gliebe at www.tigercam.com or www.gliebetronics.com, he's such a >nice chap and if I'm not mistaken, he reverse engineered one of these panels >years ago. I lent him some help at that moment. Since it was some 10 or 15 >years ago, my mind is fuzzy on this subject. Hi, Both websites listed don't exist. tigercam is squatted upon and gliebetronics is a GoDaddy parked page. :( I appreciate the quick response though! Fred From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 12:48:29 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:48:29 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Front Glass Panel In-Reply-To: <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> This came and went on ebay in seconds as the seller took a $200 offer. I would think it would have ended much higher if it went through. Would this have gone for more ? Item 290859721351 http://www.ebay.com/itm/290859721351 From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 12:53:24 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 10:53:24 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 12:07 AM PST Josh Dersch wrote: > > >On 2/7/2013 11:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be real or > worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* well > thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I delivered, and > their bleat(ing) goes on. > > > >Have you considered that the problem might in fact be you? (BTW, your > >description of Mexicans as "unskilled" and "illiterate" masses says a > >number of things about your character, none of them good). > > I haven't any food stamps to give anyone, much less illegal, unskilled, > illiterate Mexicans. > Yes, keep digging that hole. > > How is it that you're so comfortable with your country's unwillingness to > control it's borders??? And do you see doctors, lawyers, and engineers > scurrying across the border? I do. I work with several. > Countries like Australia run campaigns to attract SKILLED workers. Why > should we be any different? > You're assuming that the US doesn't. You know what happens when you assume, right? Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 13:09:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360343051.98016.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360343051.98016.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130208110915.C24836@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > So the banks just one day decided to throw all caution to the wind. And > you never even stop to ask why. Absolutely nothing to do with the fear > of litigation. I already said the banks played their part. But the govt > and the lawyers provided fertile ground for all the shenanigans. Go on > youtube and take a look at what Barney Fag and Maxine Waters had to say > when investigations of Fannie and Freddie were taking place. Yes this > started long before Obama was president - the problem is liberal > democrats, I blame NIXON From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Feb 8 13:42:35 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:42:35 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130208110915.C24836@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360343051.98016.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208110915.C24836@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <032e01ce0634$723f7330$56be5990$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > > I blame NIXON > I shouldn't really do this but it's too good to pass... It's really Taft's fault. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 13:54:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 11:54:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 11:42 AM PST Bill Sudbrink wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> I blame NIXON >> > >I shouldn't really do this but it's too good to pass... > >It's really Taft's fault. Look do your research. The problem can readily be traced back to Henry VIII. But Tutankahmen really REALLY started it all. And thanks for the diversion Bill. I was all geared up to jump on Freddy's response. But of course he's right in that dead presidents are far more to blame then any living ones. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 14:07:03 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:07:03 +0000 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 8 February 2013 15:24, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > Looking for HD's for a friend of mine who does repair work on vintage > systems and his supply of HD's has dried up so I'm working out a trade with > him. Looking for: > > 3.5" SCSI HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) > > 2.5" IDE HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) > > Looking for around 20 of each type, must be working/tested condition... > Would either buy them for $5 ea or work out a trade, email me off-list if > you have some or can point me to someone who may have them, thanks. I think I still have 3 or 4 in the 80-160MB range. Happy to ship 'em to the US but as the email address in my sig indicates, I am elsewhere... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 8 14:12:29 2013 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:12:29 +0100 Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Charles Dickman" Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 4:52 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 11/35 questions > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 7:59 AM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > >> >> 3) >> According the Fieldguide, the KE11-B can be installed instead of the >> KE11-A. That is the EIS board for the 11/35, -40. Note that the 11/35 >> has several jumpers that need to be set if you install EIS, FIS, or MMU. >> Even for the KW11 there is a jumper, IIRC. For the MMU you even must >> cut a wire on the backplane! >> But this is all clearly describes in the 11/40 CPU manual. > > Does the KE11-B fit into the processor slot used by the KE11-A? My > PDP-11/40 has some indication that it had an EAE (sticker above the > backplane has EAE in faded ink), but it has an EIS board. > > Are there any spare FIS options floating around? > > -chuck Hi Chuck, I did not know that the KE11-B could be used in the KD11-A! I never read anything about it, so I do not know ... but the Field Guide says that the KE11-B is KE11-A compatible. For what that implies ... greetz, - Henk From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 14:36:27 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 12:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <032e01ce0634$723f7330$56be5990$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <1360343051.98016.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208110915.C24836@shell.lmi.net> <032e01ce0634$723f7330$56be5990$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130208122112.F24836@shell.lmi.net> > > I blame NIXON On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I shouldn't really do this but it's too good to pass... > It's really Taft's fault. We have had exactly one president who didn't blame the problems on a previous president. But, I can't think of anything that I don't blame on Nixon. Sometimes, I need to stretch a little for 404 or General Failure/Abort Retry Ignore, etc. "But when a robotic Nixon is on the loose, we have a duty to take action." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 8 14:44:54 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:44:54 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 01:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be >>>> real or >> worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* >> well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I >> delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. >>> >>> Have you considered that the problem might in fact be you? (BTW, >>> your description of Mexicans as "unskilled" and "illiterate" >>> masses says a number of things about your character, none of them >>> good). >> >> I haven't any food stamps to give anyone, much less illegal, >> unskilled, illiterate Mexicans. >> > > Yes, keep digging that hole. > >> How is it that you're so comfortable with your country's >> unwillingness to control it's borders??? And do you see doctors, >> lawyers, and engineers scurrying across the border? > > I do. I work with several. > >> Countries like Australia run campaigns to attract SKILLED workers. >> Why should we be any different? >> > > You're assuming that the US doesn't. You know what happens when you > assume, right? > > Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. Dave?? -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 8 14:48:52 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:48:52 -0700 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <511564B4.5010003@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/8/2013 1:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: assume, right? >> >> Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. It may of had a meaning, around 2001. :-) > > Dave?? Ben. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Feb 8 14:56:42 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:56:42 +0000 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: The same reason I left EDS after HP destroyed it. And we thought it couldn't get any worse.. On Feb 7, 2013 8:17 PM, "Jonathan Katz" wrote: > On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while. > > But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political > > campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California > > Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher > > retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and > > abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP? > > There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.) > > After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall > at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 8 14:57:54 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:57:54 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511564B4.5010003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> <511564B4.5010003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <511566D2.1050503@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 03:48 PM, ben wrote: > On 2/8/2013 1:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > assume, right? >>> >>> Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. > > It may of had a meaning, around 2001. :-) Or "have", even. >> Dave?? > > Ben. -Dave, lamenting the death of the language -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 15:01:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Look do your research. The problem can readily be traced back to Henry > VIII. But Tutankahmen really REALLY started it all. At least we've found something that we can agree on. But don't overlook the responsibility of Lucy Zinjanthropus ! > And thanks for the diversion Bill. I was all geared up to jump on > Freddy's response. But of course he's right in that dead presidents are > far more to blame then any living ones. I've been blaming Nixon since 1952. (House Unamerican Activities Committee, and with McCarthy (the dummy, not the one made of wood)) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 15:09:30 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 16:09:30 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA -- Will From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 15:10:47 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:10:47 +0000 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511569D7.4080207@gmail.com> On 08/02/2013 20:56, John Many Jars wrote: > The same reason I left EDS after HP destroyed it. And we thought it > couldn't get any worse.. > On Feb 7, 2013 8:17 PM, "Jonathan Katz" wrote: I only just joined from Digital and Compaq, and I got chucked because I wasn't making enough money.... ... I was doing bid responses, how can you make money if you don't respond to tenders... >> On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while. >>> But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political >>> campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California >>> Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher >>> retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and >>> abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP? >> There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.) >> >> After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall >> at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 8 15:24:25 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> References: <1360344681.70087.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511563C6.6070909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/08/2013 01:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>>> Always the same response. Nothing ever changes. It must not be >>>>> real or >>> worth their precious time because it clashes with their so *NOT* >>> well thought out world view. What can I say. I was asked, I >>> delivered, and their bleat(ing) goes on. >>>> >>>> Have you considered that the problem might in fact be you? (BTW, >>>> your description of Mexicans as "unskilled" and "illiterate" >>>> masses says a number of things about your character, none of them >>>> good). >>> >>> I haven't any food stamps to give anyone, much less illegal, >>> unskilled, illiterate Mexicans. >>> >> >> Yes, keep digging that hole. >> >>> How is it that you're so comfortable with your country's >>> unwillingness to control it's borders??? And do you see doctors, >>> lawyers, and engineers scurrying across the border? >> >> I do. I work with several. >> >>> Countries like Australia run campaigns to attract SKILLED workers. >>> Why should we be any different? >>> >> >> You're assuming that the US doesn't. You know what happens when you >> assume, right? >> >> Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. > > Dave?? Dave's not here man. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Feb 8 16:12:48 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:12:48 +0000 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511569D7.4080207@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <511569D7.4080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 8 February 2013 21:10, Dave wrote: > I only just joined from Digital and Compaq, and I got chucked because I > wasn't making enough money.... > ... I was doing bid responses, how can you make money if you don't respond > to tenders... I was (along with others) maintaining a test lab for the Department of Work and Pensions account. The testing had been built up after the incident were someone released a GPO into the live environment that took out every PC in the entire DWP. When I was there, they were back on the down-side of the bell curve, heading back towards some sort of disaster and the testing became a joke again. The mantra of the management was JFDI. I suppose you either know or can figure out what that stands for. Any time I tried to do my job (ensuring that the stuff actually worked -- in my case, you could install it) I was being obstructive. Morons. Then, during one of the many rumours of the potential move of the testing lab from being in a "tower" (working only for the DWP) to being "leveraged" (working for any account), which would really mean they'd make yet another attempt to fire us all and outsource it (sorry, "best shore"), I jumped ship and went to a department that was securely with the account. That was a mistake, because that department was developed and tested monitoring solutions using Unicenter. After about five minutes using that "product", I wanted to slit my wrists. We all hated Mark Hurd, and laughed and cheered when he got fired for violating his own ethics videos... but he was the only CEO that managed to run the place effectively -- because HP is like the former Soviet Union -- if you don't maintain the terror, the whole thing falls apart. I'm back working for a small company... back to doing actual, productive work, and keeping (mostly) my own council... It's nice to feel useful... (; -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 8 16:30:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:30:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Feb 8, 13 10:52:15 am Message-ID: > Does the KE11-B fit into the processor slot used by the KE11-A? My No. THe EAE is a noraml Unibus device and can be used on any Unibus PDP11 The EIS oprion fo the 11/25 is a special add-on for that CPU (IIRC it adds more microcode, maybe some extra hardware too). They do not implement the same instruction set, the EIS board adds to the PDP11 machine instructions, the EAE is accessd via I/O ports. You can have both in the same machine if you want to. From ray at arachelian.com Fri Feb 8 17:00:42 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:00:42 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5115839A.8020406@arachelian.com> On 02/07/2013 11:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. Oh wow man, please, whatever you're smoking, you gotta share it with everyone else - you're hitting it too hard. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Feb 8 17:15:18 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 15:15:18 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5115839A.8020406@arachelian.com> References: <1360299289.12758.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5115839A.8020406@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <51158706.50509@jwsss.com> On 2/8/2013 3:00 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 02/07/2013 11:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. > Oh wow man, please, whatever you're smoking, you gotta share it with > everyone else - you're hitting it too hard. > > Please, no. I find it funny that such noise is generated by one who seems critical of "suits" or whatever. If a coherent message is there I'm missing it. This is a brain on faux news too much of the time from other postings. Again why the plonk was applied though the lid came off the sewer and some of the bile oozed out into the open in this case. Just because there are a lot of old farts and others with old computers don't mean that paranoid ranting will fall on a receptive audience. At lease it the thread relates to putting down an entire class of other workers, and companies it would be nice if there were some amount of fact, but that is lacking here. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 17:25:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 15:25:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage er Message-ID: <1360365950.63080.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Re: Vintage er-------------------- On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 3:00 PM PST Ray Arachelian wrote: >On 02/07/2013 11:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> Putting the cart before the horse. Obviously banks were more or less FORCED into delving out loans to those who couldn't pay them back. > >Oh wow man, please, whatever you're smoking, you gotta share it with >everyone else - you're hitting it too hard. if you wish to express your objection to anything I've said Ray please do so offlist. At this point this portion of a legitimate thread has run its course. As for a legitimate contribution to the op, I did enjoy reading Rebel Code a few years ago (maybe more then a few). From ray at arachelian.com Fri Feb 8 18:02:26 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 19:02:26 -0500 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. > Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Feb 8 18:58:28 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:58:28 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <51159F34.5080404@jwsss.com> On 2/8/2013 4:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. >> > Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of > Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to > see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. I worked for sun for a couple of years from 93 to 95 (I think). two stories: Scott McNeely liked having a really fancy video studio so he could make high sounding rambling speaches and distribute them. I worked for a fellow who had been and still was the defacto support guy for a facility, and division, and besides my job, was wired especially well into IT and facilities. helped a lot. Anyway word came down that some big speech was on the way, I don't recall how many mb. There was a huge fuss because Scott or whoever wanted to email it to everyone and be sure they saw it. The new fangled netscape was around, but I was still in the mode of trolling FTP sites in the company for entertainment and software than anything resembling what was created by the net. So to get media out it had to be sent to each individual. Too many schmucks who wouldn't or couldn't handle getting and playing it from an FTP site. Problem was in order to do this they calculated that they would need to add about 100gb to the mail server space to accommodate all the copies of the email to be sent out. They ended up doing it for this email because surely there would be more to follow (one more ever). Just to hear Scott's head rattle. I'd listened to a lot of media and had the setup to get and play it, but there was a lot of manual work involved. Another was that I was a contractor. Near the end of my time there, which didn't particularly end because I wanted to leave, they changed the accounting for the space in the facility. Some bean counter decided that the facility was to be an asset, and you had to rent your space. Some workers had no issues, and they then had their offices charged to their departments at a ridiculous price. So as a contractor, if I was in the office I'd have to pay rent (not me actually, but my supervisor had to find budget). so any trace of me moved off books, as my job was actually 100% travel. good for a while. but some people who were such as sales or field support suddenly lost their offices due to the fact that they were in the field. The new marvelous system was that there would be a room, chairs, phones, and all that they could "rent" when they were in the office, and their department had to pay for that. The more you were out and about, the lower the rent. total madness. My tenure came to an end when they offered me 1/3 of my contracting rate as an employee. My takehome literally would not have been as high as a friend's kid who worked flipping burgers. Clear message. screw Sun. Love (ed) solaris, and the technical achievement. Never worked directly in engineering, I was working for a marketing guy doing engineering off the books, would have cried more to see what I did go down the way it did. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 19:29:33 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 20:29:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 and KE11 (was Re: 11/35 questions) Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, if the KE11-B will run in an 11/20, then I'll be hanging onto one > of them, as I'm working on getting an 11/20. It will work in pretty much everything, AFAIK, since it's a peripheral not a "CPU extension". The KE11-A is functionally identical but built on the backplane peripheral model of the 11/20 and rare enough that I never figured on running across one I could get. I know that there's an occasional KE11-B running around since it's a single card. > I'd love to see v1 UNIX running on real iron. Me too. It's no big shake to run it on a real PDP-11 - as long as you have a KE11 of some kind in there _and_ you have matching peripherals for the 1972-era code. I haven't tried it, but I would be surprised to learn that you couldn't get v1 UNIX working on an 11/04 (peripheral issues aside). What I really want to do (and it sounds like you do too) is to run v1 UNIX not just on real iron, but the on the closest approximate I can manage of what was used in 1972. Step one is to get the 11/20 doing *anything*. Step two is to get the 11/20 running with RK05s. Then I can start to consider how I would either provide a register-compatible swap device or how much coding changes I'd have to tackle to get v1 code to use some _other_ swap device. Once I have a plan for how to provide swap, _then_ it's worth looking in all seriousness for a KE-11. Many steps to go before I have anything to purchase. Lots to fix and play with. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Feb 8 20:11:19 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 18:11:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Front Glass Panel In-Reply-To: <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, mc68010 wrote: > This came and went on ebay in seconds as the seller took a $200 offer. I > would think it would have ended much higher if it went through. Would this > have gone for more ? > > Item 290859721351 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290859721351 I see a Commodore 65 for sale: Item 251222396687 http://www.ebay.com/itm/251222396687 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 8 20:25:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 18:25:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage er In-Reply-To: <1360365950.63080.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360365950.63080.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130208182439.U40254@shell.lmi.net> > >Oh wow man, please, whatever you're smoking, you gotta share it with > >everyone else - you're hitting it too hard. On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > if you wish to express your objection to anything I've said Ray please > do so offlist. In other words, "meet me privately to share it" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:30:50 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 21:30:50 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Front Glass Panel In-Reply-To: <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:48 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This came and went on ebay in seconds as the seller took a $200 offer. I > would think it would have ended much higher if it went through. Would this > have gone for more ? > > Item 290859721351 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/290859721351 Ooh. Sorry I missed out on that one. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:36:01 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 02:36:01 +0000 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8 February 2013 21:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > But don't overlook the responsibility of Lucy Zinjanthropus ! He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today. You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to learn how to quote in an email! Just killfile him - it's the easiest option. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Feb 8 20:39:11 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 21:39:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Front Glass Panel In-Reply-To: References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5115B6CF.8050302@verizon.net> On 02/08/2013 09:30 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:48 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> This came and went on ebay in seconds as the seller took a $200 offer. I >> would think it would have ended much higher if it went through. Would this >> have gone for more ? >> >> Item 290859721351 >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/290859721351 > Ooh. Sorry I missed out on that one. > > -ethan I can't recall ever seeing a PDP-8 with a glass front panel, they were all plastic as is the one I still have. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 8 20:48:35 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:48:35 -0800 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <5115B903.7040605@sydex.com> On 02/08/2013 04:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did. >> > > Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of > Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to > see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. I was digging through some of my old t-shirts, wondering which I should toss into the garbage bag that's headed for Goodwill and I ran across one that had the Sun logo on the front "Sunstruck 4.1.89 (Wanda)" and, on the back, a ladybug with a slash through it, surrounded by "Getting out the last bugs". I think my wife (worked for Sun for a time) or a friend gave it to me. Is it rag-bag material or does it hold some sentimental value for someone? It's a little faded, but quite readable. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 8 20:57:04 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 18:57:04 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Front Glass Panel In-Reply-To: <5115B6CF.8050302@verizon.net> References: <1360308148.38582.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5114BA59.6060700@gmail.com> <20130208102344.R24836@shell.lmi.net> <5115487D.2020400@gmail.com> <5115B6CF.8050302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5115BB00.3050708@gmail.com> On 2/8/2013 6:39 PM, allison wrote: > I can't recall ever seeing a PDP-8 with a glass front panel, they were > all plastic > as is the one I still have. > > > Allison > Looks the same seller sold a more complete one earlier. http://www.ebay.com/itm/290841515677 That's nice for $200. All the switches and everything. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 21:06:02 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 19:06:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage er Message-ID: <1360379162.42664.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> stop you it's been decades ---------------------------- On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:25 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> >Oh wow man, please, whatever you're smoking, you gotta share it with >> >everyone else - you're hitting it too hard. > >On Fri, 8 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> if you wish to express your objection to anything I've said Ray please >> do so offlist. > >In other words, "meet me privately to share it" From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 8 21:08:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 19:08:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360379317.47138.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Coming from the worthless little piece of offscouring who uttered the phrase "jew on a stick". ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 6:36 PM PST Liam Proven wrote: >On 8 February 2013 21:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> But don't overlook the responsibility of Lucy Zinjanthropus ! > >He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic >sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in >the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same >invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today. > >You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very >ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to >learn how to quote in an email! > >Just killfile him - it's the easiest option. > >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 8 21:50:15 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 20:50:15 -0700 Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118749C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118747C81@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <51122A90.1050002@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA0118749C68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5115C777.7000707@brouhaha.com> I wrote about CI, that it's rate was: > 70 Mbps. Rich Alderson wrote: > Not originally. That was the HSC70 upgrade, which was VAX only. The HSC70 upgraded several things, but not the raw data rate, which was 70 Mbps from day one. See, for example, the HSC50/70 Hardware Technical Manual, EK-HS571-TM-001. The line rate is determined by the "Port Link Module" (L0100). This same module is used in the HSC50, HSC70, and CI20. The module is hardwired for 70 Mbps operation. As far as I've been able to determine, the main performance boost of CI network traffic with the HSC70 was that it supported longer packets, reducing overhead. However, in most cases it was probably more significant that due to the higher processor performance of the HSC70 vs. HSC50, it could handle more disk I/O operations per second. It's definitely a shame that the HSC70 didn't support 576-byte sector mode for use with 36-bit systems. This resulted from a deliberate choice to drop 576-byte mode from the HSC70 software, as there is no such limitation in the HSC70 hardware. >> Although it clearly was inspired by Ethernet, it is dissimilar enough >> that I'm not sure I'd even call it a (lower-case "l") ethernet. > It's similar enough that I would. I'll agree that CI is slightly more similar to Ethernet than to Token RIng. Both CI and Ethernet use Manchester encoding and a 32-bit CRC as a FCS. However, CI does not use CSMA/CD arbitration, which is one of the defining characteristics of Ethernet (aside from the newer point-to-point Ethernet links, which have no arbitration). CI has its own arbitration scheme based on node numbers, and does not use exponential backoff. Not to mention that CI doesn't support a bus topology, only a star. And a CI network is limited to a 90m radius, while Ethernet was designed for a maximum station separation of 2.5Km. So please remind me again just exactly what is so similar between CI and Ethernet? > I think that any documentation from Digital which suggests that the CI was > intended for anything other than the Jupiter is revisionism in extremis. So the dates on the schematics in the Field Maintenance Print Set for the CI20 are revisionist history? Fascinating. Also the DEC internal memo "Clusters Program Analysis" memo by Tony Sukiennik, dated June 18, 1982, states on page 13: The CI is a high speed (70 megabits/second), multdropped, short distance (90 meter radius) interconnect designed to pass data and control infomration among intelligent computers. The computers currently supporting the CI are as follows: 1. VAX-11/780 2. VAX-11/782 3. VAX-11/750 4. 2060 5. 2080 (JUPITER) 6. VENUS 7. HSC-50 (I/O server) [Note that the presence of the VAX-11/750 on the list contradicts my earlier suggestion that the CI750 might have been an afterthought.] If it had really been the case that the CI20 wasn't planned until after the Jupiter cancellation, there's no way that engineering could have gotten it ready between then and when it first shipped. Just the engineering of the three CI20 modules that are installed in the KL's RH20 backplane (M3001, M3002, and M3003) appears to have taken at least two years. Eric From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Feb 9 00:27:03 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 00:27:03 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: <201302061121.r16BLmJY024683@rickmurphy.net> References: <201302061121.r16BLmJY024683@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives, the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if unit 0 or 1 is the active drive! Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess... sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware... -Charles ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that read JMP 0204? On Feb 6, 2013, at 5:21 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > Here's something you can try to verify that your disks are properly > hooked up. It's the oscillating seek toggle-in for the PDP-8 > modified to allow the unit to be selected. You can toggle it in via > ODT and let it fly - it'll seek the drive back and forth. If this > works on drive 1, then you've got an OS/8 driver that isn't sending > out the select properly. > > 0200 7201 CAF (Reset) > 0201 1230 TAD 0230 - Get drive select > 0202 6604 Load command register b - select drive > 0203 1231 Loop: TAD 0231 - get number of cylinders to seek > 0204 4222 JMS 0222 - Wait for ready > 0205 3226 DCA 0226 - Store cylinder number > 0206 1226 ISZ 0226 - Increment it > 0207 6603 Load command register A - seek > 0210 7325 Seek command (0003) > 0211 6604 Load command register B > 0212 4222 JMS 0222 - Wait for ready > 0213 7307 Read header command (0004) > 0214 6604 > 0215 1226 TAD 0226 - Get seek value > 0216 1227 Change direction > 0217 7500 SZA CLA > 0220 5203 JMP 0203 - Back to start > 0221 5204 JMP 0205 - Loop > > 0222 0000 Wait subroutine > 0223 6601 RLSD - skip if done > 0224 5223 JMP .-1 > 0225 5622 JMP I 0221 > > 0226 0000 Temp > 0227 4000 Constant > 0230 0100 Drive one > 0231 0200 Number of cylinders to seek > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 9 00:35:33 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 01:35:33 -0500 Subject: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2013 07:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become > of Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart > to see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. I just installed that on a T2000. It's so "smoove" you have to spell it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but unbelievably shitty things for Solaris. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pinball at telus.net Fri Feb 8 16:58:04 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 14:58:04 -0800 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > Looking for HD's for a friend of mine who does repair work on > vintage systems and his supply of HD's has dried up so I'm working out > a trade with him. Looking for: > > 3.5" SCSI HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) > > 2.5" IDE HD's in small sizes (40, 80, 120MB sizes) > > Looking for around 20 of each type, must be working/tested > condition... Would either buy them for $5 ea or work out a trade, > email me off-list if you have some or can point me to someone who may > have them, thanks. > > > Curt > > > All things considered why does your friend not use Compact Flash for the IDE drives? Certainly they will be more reliable that old hard drives... Granted SCSI to CF is more expensive - AztekMonster for example, but it should be very reliable. John :-#)# From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 09:11:44 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:11:44 -0500 Subject: Lots of goodies for sale Message-ID: <51166730.1060207@gmail.com> Got the following for sale DayStar Turbo040 Card with Mac IISI Adapter, works in Mac IIci, SE/30 and IIsi $150 shipped Apple IIGS Monitors $50 shipped each PowerMacs of all sorts $50 each shipped- got at least 50 Tell me what model you want I probably have it 68k Macs of all sorts $50 each shipped- Tell me what model you want and I probably got it G4 Upgrade Card for PowerMac 7300-9600 Makes it a G4 450mhz $35 shipped RAM Lots of 30 pin 4MB SIMMS $20 bucks shipped for a small flat rate box full of it 50 pin SCSI Hard Drives- All sizes from 20MB up to 4GB $20 Each shipped IBM Type 7204 Model 409 9.1GB External SCSI Hard Drive for AS/400 $30 shipped LaCie 9GB External SCSI Hard Drive $30 shipped Sun Optical Mice- $10 each shipped eBay feedback upon request, PayPal only Thanks Steve From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 9 09:46:44 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 07:46:44 -0800 Subject: Last of Don Maslin's collection available Message-ID: <51166F64.40708@bitsavers.org> Another curator and I went to San Diego on Thursday and finished sorting the collection for Deborah. There are several S-100 systems, terminals, a metal case Commodore PET, Tek 4012, and many, many S-100 boards that were out of CHM's collecting scope that are available. We ended up taking about 6 pallets of stuff, most of the documentation and software and a few systems that we didn't already have in the colleciton. If you forward your email adr to me I will forward it on to her. We suggested eBaying them, but there may be too many of them to deal with that way. She probably will be reluctant to ship anything large. From doc at vaxen.net Sat Feb 9 10:44:00 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:44:00 -0600 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: References: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51167CD0.5090607@vaxen.net> On 2/8/13 8:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic > sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in > the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same > invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today. > > You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very > ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to > learn how to quote in an email! Why, really, do you believe your vitriol is any less offensive than his? I'm not Christian (my faith is neither up for discussion not relevant here AT ALL), but your hatred and your condescension toward people of a certain faith just reek of the same narrow-mindedness of which you accuse them. You've Been Trolled. Doc From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 9 11:20:55 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 12:20:55 -0500 Subject: Available S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <007a01ce06e9$de578f70$9b06ae50$@YAHOO.COM> Hi There are three (3) S-100 Regular Prototyping board PCBs and eight (8) S-100 LAVA PCBs still available aka "Basic S-100 Prototype Board" (scroll down to the second board description). These are going fast so please act soon if you would like one or more. Approximately 90% of the boards have already gone to their builders. http://s100computers.com/Cards%20For%20Sale.htm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20regular %20prototyping%20board S-100 LAVA PCB is for a VGA monitor compatible display. Uses Mylium LAVA-10 chip module (based Spartan-3 FPGA) http://www.mylium.es/pages/en/lava_10.html http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Lava-10%20Board/LAVA-10%20Board .htm The S-100 LAVA works fine and does what it was designed to do quite well. However, in my personal opinion the S-100 LAVA capability has been barely even touched since the current software uses the board as a VGA monitor compatible text terminal replacement. I believe it is capable of quite a bit more text and graphics capability with further developed software. The S-100 LAVA is capable of 800x600 @ 16 bit display (65536 colors -- RGB565) with 32MB of SDRAM and 8 MB of Flash it should be easily capable of being an X-Window server and who knows what else. It makes a logical pairing with upcoming S-100 80386 CPU and S-100 68K CPU board PCBs currently in development. These PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Feb 9 11:21:40 2013 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 12:21:40 -0500 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: References: <201302061121.r16BLmJY024683@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201302091721.r19HLhqZ025070@rickmurphy.net> At 01:27 AM 2/9/2013, Charles wrote: >I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that >had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P > >A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started >seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives, >the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if >unit 0 or 1 is the active drive! > >Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess... >sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware... That's what I was worried about. You're lucky that it hasn't scrambled the OS on your drives. :) >-Charles > >ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that >read JMP 0204? Yup. The original for this (from the RL01/02 pocket service guide) didn't have anything to do a drive select so I added it in. That shifted everything, leading to all the offsets shifting. I missed fixing the comment there, but jmp to 0204 is correct. -Rick From lproven at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 11:28:38 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 17:28:38 +0000 Subject: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51167CD0.5090607@vaxen.net> References: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> <51167CD0.5090607@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 9 February 2013 16:44, Doc wrote: > On 2/8/13 8:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> >> He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic >> sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in >> the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same >> invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today. >> >> You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very >> ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to >> learn how to quote in an email! > > > > Why, really, do you believe your vitriol is any less offensive than his? I don't. But see, it's a bit like this cartoon: http://www.atheistmemebase.com/2012/03/30/quit-persecuting-us/ (For the WWW impaired: a single figure says "god probably doesn't exist". 50 identical figures shout "stop persecuting us!") There are many billions of religious people in the world. *All* of their beliefs are based on superstition and myth; that is the nature of religion. None of it can be demonstrated; if it could be, it would not require faith and it would no longer be religion. The religious run most countries; their houses of worship line the streets of every city. You cannot be a Girl Guide or a Boy Scout without making obeisance to their invisible friends. In many countries, mine included, you cannot sing the national anthem without invoking some religion's mythical deity. But the minority of us who are free of this kind of mental infection and who actually base our worldview on facts and reason just occasionally open our mouths and point out that the claims of the religious are ridiculous, that when held up to the light of day, they are self-evident nonsense, *we* are the ones who get attacked for oppression. No. I am not oppressing anyone. The christians, muslims, jews and so on oppress billions. Don't accuse me. If they still had the power they once had, they would torture me to death. All I do is point out that their belief is a self-inconsistent travesty. They killed millions in the name of their illusory magic sky-pixie. People are still killed daily over it. This man believes in a series of ridiculous fairy-stories that no unbrainwashed person would believe. He has personally attacked me on this mailing-list for not sharing his delusions. He has personally emailed me to mock my reasoned, evidence-based, factual, materialistic outlook and to try to infect me with his sick twisted death-cult. His death-cult which involves images of pain and death as its leitmotif; adherents of which adorn themselves with little effigied of a dying man, or with pictures of an instrument of torture. It is sick, horrible, and wrong. It distorts minds, destroys lives, robs people of their freedom to express their sexuality, it denies gay people the same rights as straights, it denies women reproductive freedom. Related sects routinely mutilate the genitals of infants. They are all abhorrent, disgusting cults and the sooner the world is rid of them the better. And no, I will not shut up about it, and no, I am not ashamed of it, and if I my stating these blatant and self-evident truths offends people, well, *good.* I am offended by their superstition and what it makes them do. It made me think. Perhaps being offended will make them think, too. Being offended never hurt or injured anyone. Being offended is good for you. It challenges you, makes you question things. > I'm not Christian (my faith is neither up for discussion not relevant here > AT ALL), but your hatred and your condescension toward people of a certain > faith just reek of the same narrow-mindedness of which you accuse them. I hate all faiths, pretty much equally. Some are more evil than others, such as scientology or the jehovah's witnesses or the christ-scientists - religions which routinely kill children by denying them medical treatment. But they are all mental infections, viral memes that destroy minds and lives. It's just that some come up more often than others. I don't pick 'em out. They self-select. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 9 12:02:21 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:02:21 -0800 Subject: Please Stop (was Re: Vintage era) In-Reply-To: References: <1360353289.54641.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130208124345.H24836@shell.lmi.net> <51167CD0.5090607@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <51168F2D.1030900@bitsavers.org> > But they are all mental infections, viral memes that destroy minds and lives. > This is WAAAAAY off topic for this list, and is a great way to get Jay to shut down the list for a while. Please stop. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 9 12:34:04 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:34:04 -0800 Subject: Sunstruck/Wanda T-shirt Message-ID: <5116969C.90509@sydex.com> THe lack of response on this undoubtedly means that its best place is in the rag bag, I suppose. It's good cotton and will make a fine rag with which to wax my car. Oh well, I tried. Must have been an unmemorable release. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 12:50:09 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 10:50:09 -0800 Subject: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> On 2/8/2013 10:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I just installed that on a T2000. It's so "smoove" you have to spell > it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump > through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that > company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but > unbelievably shitty things for Solaris. -Dave It is really amazing how cheap the t1000 and t2000 are on ebay right now. Everyone is dumping them. I saw a T1000 go for $49 the other day and a T2000 for $125. I keep thinking about picking one up for fun. How are you liking it ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 9 13:04:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 14:04:31 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> On 02/09/2013 01:50 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I just installed that on a T2000. It's so "smoove" you have to spell >> it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump >> through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that >> company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but >> unbelievably shitty things for Solaris. -Dave > > It is really amazing how cheap the t1000 and t2000 are on ebay right > now. Everyone is dumping them. I saw a T1000 go for $49 the other day > and a T2000 for $125. The bottom dropped out very suddenly a few weeks ago due to a whole bunch of systems coming off-lease, and leasing companies being stupid by putting ALL of them up on eBay at the same time. As recently as two months ago, T2000s couldn't be touched for less than about $500. They shipped a LOT of those systems, and it seems the vast majority of them were leased. Three leasing companies that I sometimes do business with have contacted me in the past couple of weeks asking about them. > I keep thinking about picking one up for fun. How > are you liking it ? I love it so far. It's a tremendous amount of bang for the buck, in particular. If you have a workload profile that involves lots of threads or lots of processes, it will scream. If you're trying to run one or two large things, it will be much less impressive. A "ps -ef" on my production server (which runs Zones) usually returns between 800 and 1000 processes. For that type of workload, the T-series processors really shine, as does Solaris' rather awesome threading implementation...a separate kernel thread for each device instance, etc...unbelievably smooth, fast systems under heavy load. This is WAY off-topic. But we seem to be good at that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 13:24:00 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:24:00 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> On 2/9/2013 11:04 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is WAY off-topic. But we seem to be good at that. -Dave I think we may actually be getting close to calling all SPARC gear 'classic'. The end may not be far off. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 9 13:34:38 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 14:34:38 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> On 02/09/2013 02:24 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> This is WAY off-topic. But we seem to be good at that. -Dave > > I think we may actually be getting close to calling all SPARC gear > 'classic'. The end may not be far off. *sigh* Here we go. I guess the fact that T4s are shipping now doesn't do a damn thing to dispel these types of statements. This gets really, really old. But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 13:47:37 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 11:47:37 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> On 2/9/2013 11:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > * Here we go. I guess the fact that T4s are shipping now doesn't do a > damn thing to dispel these types of statements. This gets really, > really old. But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" > soon too, with all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce > ARM-based *servers*. -Dave Sure they are shipping but, Oracle's hardware sales are way down. http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/004641/orcl092112a.png The T4 isn't helping turn anything around. Hardware sales have gone down since the T4 release. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 9 13:58:01 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> On 02/09/2013 02:47 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> * Here we go. I guess the fact that T4s are shipping now doesn't do a >> damn thing to dispel these types of statements. This gets really, >> really old. But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" >> soon too, with all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce >> ARM-based *servers*. -Dave > > Sure they are shipping but, Oracle's hardware sales are way down. > http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/004641/orcl092112a.png The T4 > isn't helping turn anything around. Hardware sales have gone down since > the T4 release. This is true. But sales of *everything* are down. And more importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. That's all I'm worried about. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 14:04:28 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 12:04:28 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is true. But sales of *everything* are down. And more > importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and > now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. That's > all I'm worried about. -Dave What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to 11 already ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 9 14:18:43 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 15:18:43 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5116AF23.3090509@neurotica.com> On 02/09/2013 03:04 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> This is true. But sales of *everything* are down. And more >> importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and >> now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. That's >> all I'm worried about. -Dave > > What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to 11 > already ? Larger shops have, none of the smaller shops I've been around have not. Oracle has made getting support damn near impossible for small outfits. Patches are what people (like me) are concerned about...you have to shell out huge amounts of money to get patches. It's ridiculous. That's why OpenSXCE is important. Big organizations (banks, hospitals, etc) have no problem with a few thousand bucks a year for patch access. For smaller ones, like small retail chains (I do a lot in that space) just don't have that kind of money these days, but they still need a stable platform with good performance. I've moved some of them to Linux, but that's not my preference. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From chrise at pobox.com Sat Feb 9 14:38:15 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 14:38:15 -0600 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> Message-ID: <20130209203815.GG16946@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/08/2013 at 02:58PM -0800), John Robertson wrote: > > Granted SCSI to CF is more expensive - AztekMonster for example, but > it should be very reliable. Can you supply a link or reference to this "AztekMonster"? Everything I have found suggests it existed in 2008 but does not any more. Where would I buy one? -- Chris Elmquist From hagstrom at bu.edu Sat Feb 9 14:53:04 2013 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Paul Hagstrom) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 15:53:04 -0500 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <20130209203815.GG16946@n0jcf.net> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> <20130209203815.GG16946@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <31B10C31-B47D-4292-9015-F3CEBBB373C9@bu.edu> The guy who makes them sells them on eBay, under the name "artmix": http://www.ebay.com/sch/artmix/m.html They're still there. I have an AztecMonster that I got almost a year ago but I've not quite gotten around to trying it out, so I can vouch for their existence, but I can't yet say much about setup or reliability. My intention had been (still is) to put it in an SE/30. There's a Japanese information page here as well: http://www.artmix.com/CF_AztecMonster.html and a thread at 68kmla discussing it http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17047 -Paul On Feb 9, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (02/08/2013 at 02:58PM -0800), John Robertson wrote: >> >> Granted SCSI to CF is more expensive - AztekMonster for example, but >> it should be very reliable. > > Can you supply a link or reference to this "AztekMonster"? Everything I > have found suggests it existed in 2008 but does not any more. > > Where would I buy one? > > -- > Chris Elmquist > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat Feb 9 15:34:21 2013 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 16:34:21 -0500 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <31B10C31-B47D-4292-9015-F3CEBBB373C9@bu.edu> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> <20130209203815.GG16946@n0jcf.net> <31B10C31-B47D-4292-9015-F3CEBBB373C9@bu.edu> Message-ID: Those adapters look quite useful. Especially the SATA to SCSI adapter. Although it says for Mac and AKAI/Emu sampler... would it also work with a CMD CQD-220 (or similar) SCSI card for the PDP-11? Or does the adapter only implement the barest amount of the SCSI protocol just to be able to work on a Mac or sampler/synthesizer? Cheers, Christian On 9 February 2013 15:53, Paul Hagstrom wrote: > The guy who makes them sells them on eBay, under the name "artmix": > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/artmix/m.html > > They're still there. I have an AztecMonster that I got almost a year ago but I've not quite gotten around to trying it out, so I can vouch for their existence, but I can't yet say much about setup or reliability. My intention had been (still is) to put it in an SE/30. > > There's a Japanese information page here as well: > > http://www.artmix.com/CF_AztecMonster.html > > and a thread at 68kmla discussing it > > http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17047 > > -Paul > > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> On Friday (02/08/2013 at 02:58PM -0800), John Robertson wrote: >>> >>> Granted SCSI to CF is more expensive - AztekMonster for example, but >>> it should be very reliable. >> >> Can you supply a link or reference to this "AztekMonster"? Everything I >> have found suggests it existed in 2008 but does not any more. >> >> Where would I buy one? >> >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sat Feb 9 13:18:16 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 19:18:16 +0000 (WET) Subject: networking via SCSI? Message-ID: <01OPZZ8K4YBY00154A@beyondthepale.ie> > Not to mention that CI doesn't support a bus > topology, only a star. And a CI network is limited to a 90m radius, > while Ethernet was designed for a maximum station separation of 2.5Km. > So please remind me again just exactly what is so similar between CI and > Ethernet? I thought a CI coupler was mostly a transformer. If so, would a CI network not behave much like a bus, even if it didn't look like one? A lot more like a bus I would have thought than modern ethernet which neither looks nor behaves like a bus. (Not that I'm worried about whether CI is like Ethernet or not...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 9 21:42:09 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 19:42:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage era Message-ID: <1360467729.22068.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Just one last thing before I utterly let this go (I should think I'm entitled after that lying diatribe) - when o God when will he quit with those goofy cartoons! ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 9:28 AM PST Liam Proven wrote: >On 9 February 2013 16:44, Doc wrote: >> On 2/8/13 8:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> >> He doesn't believe in her. The world was made in 6 days by a magic >> sky-pixie. He thinks all those nasty fossil things were laid down in >> the great flood and humans haven't evolved, they were made by the same >> invisible big-old-fairy-with-a-white-beard, just as they are today. >> >> You're wasting your time with this chap; he is both stupid and very >> ignorant, a terrible combination. I mean, come on, he's too dim to >> learn how to quote in an email! >> >> >> >> Why, really, do you believe your vitriol is any less offensive than his? > >I don't. > >But see, it's a bit like this cartoon: >http://www.atheistmemebase.com/2012/03/30/quit-persecuting-us/ > >(For the WWW impaired: a single figure says "god probably doesn't >exist". 50 identical figures shout "stop persecuting us!") > >There are many billions of religious people in the world. *All* of >their beliefs are based on superstition and myth; that is the nature >of religion. None of it can be demonstrated; if it could be, it would >not require faith and it would no longer be religion. > >The religious run most countries; their houses of worship line the >streets of every city. You cannot be a Girl Guide or a Boy Scout >without making obeisance to their invisible friends. In many >countries, mine included, you cannot sing the national anthem without >invoking some religion's mythical deity. > >But the minority of us who are free of this kind of mental infection >and who actually base our worldview on facts and reason just >occasionally open our mouths and point out that the claims of the >religious are ridiculous, that when held up to the light of day, they >are self-evident nonsense, *we* are the ones who get attacked for >oppression. > >No. I am not oppressing anyone. > >The christians, muslims, jews and so on oppress billions. Don't accuse >me. If they still had the power they once had, they would torture me >to death. All I do is point out that their belief is a >self-inconsistent travesty. They killed millions in the name of their >illusory magic sky-pixie. People are still killed daily over it. > >This man believes in a series of ridiculous fairy-stories that no >unbrainwashed person would believe. He has personally attacked me on >this mailing-list for not sharing his delusions. He has personally >emailed me to mock my reasoned, evidence-based, factual, materialistic >outlook and to try to infect me with his sick twisted death-cult. His >death-cult which involves images of pain and death as its leitmotif; >adherents of which adorn themselves with little effigied of a dying >man, or with pictures of an instrument of torture. > >It is sick, horrible, and wrong. It distorts minds, destroys lives, >robs people of their freedom to express their sexuality, it denies gay >people the same rights as straights, it denies women reproductive >freedom. Related sects routinely mutilate the genitals of infants. > >They are all abhorrent, disgusting cults and the sooner the world is >rid of them the better. > >And no, I will not shut up about it, and no, I am not ashamed of it, >and if I my stating these blatant and self-evident truths offends >people, well, *good.* I am offended by their superstition and what it >makes them do. It made me think. Perhaps being offended will make them >think, too. > >Being offended never hurt or injured anyone. Being offended is good >for you. It challenges you, makes you question things. > >> I'm not Christian (my faith is neither up for discussion not relevant here >> AT ALL), but your hatred and your condescension toward people of a certain >> faith just reek of the same narrow-mindedness of which you accuse them. > >I hate all faiths, pretty much equally. Some are more evil than >others, such as scientology or the jehovah's witnesses or the >christ-scientists - religions which routinely kill children by denying >them medical treatment. > >But they are all mental infections, viral memes that destroy minds and lives. > >It's just that some come up more often than others. I don't pick 'em >out. They self-select. > >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 9 23:02:29 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2013 21:02:29 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape Message-ID: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> I was cleaning the head on one of my 9-track drives and used a tape that I've had around for while to check my work. It's labeled VAX-11 FORTRAN FORT046.A and seems to be backup tape for VAX FORTRAN 4.0. Total length is only about 750KB. Anyone interested in the contents before I scratch the tape? --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Feb 9 23:31:17 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 23:31:17 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? Message-ID: <758CA7EA-39AB-4C45-961D-815CC40151D1@centurytel.net> At 01:27 AM 2/9/2013, Charles wrote: >I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that >had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P > >A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started >seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives, >the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if >unit 0 or 1 is the active drive! > >Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess... >sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware... That's what I was worried about. You're lucky that it hasn't scrambled the OS on your drives. :) >-Charles > >ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that >read JMP 0204? Yup. The original for this (from the RL01/02 pocket service guide) didn't have anything to do a drive select so I added it in. That shifted everything, leading to all the offsets shifting. I missed fixing the comment there, but jmp to 0204 is correct. -Rick I'm pulling my hair out... I disconnected the 2nd drive and now just have one RL02 attached to my RL8A, with a terminator. A bit of background - I could not find a cable that goes from the 40 pin header on the controller card to the first drive, so I made one out of ribbon cable and IDC headers, removing the first external connector and just using headers as it does inside the drive. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the original cable has a "twist" somewhere in the drive selects like the old PC floppy cables, because... Although I can set and reset the two drive select bits on the RL8A, and the 75113 line drivers also change state appropriately, those signals are not reaching the correct place on the logic board inside the RL02! At the 75107 line receivers (E57), those two bits are always logic 00, i.e. drive 0. So the drive won't select at all unless I put the Unit 0 plug in, at which point it effectively ignores the drive select bits and always selects regardless of the state of those two bits at the controller. Confirming that the drive select lines are dead. The only thing between the line drivers and receivers is 6' of ribbon cable. It leaves the RL8A on J1 header pins TT, SS, RR, PP and is supposed to enter the RL02 logic board on J12 header pins C, D, E, F which accounts for the cable being reversed. Just in case I even tried flipping the header connector around and of course the drive won't load or work at all and the Fault light stays on, so I know I have it facing the right way. Unless it's possible to make a cable upside down and backwards, or some such? This setup DID previously run OS/8, ADVENT, FOCAL, whatever was on the pack, but only using one of the RL02's (I don't think I was ever able to access the other drive). I can't think of anything that could "lose" the drive select lines except a defective cable (will continuity-check tomorrow, even though I made a new one by copying the old one that used to work) or else the correct cable (BC80J-20) is not a straight-through pin for pin connection, in which case I have to have one. Just to further confuse things, I have the identical two-drive setup with homemade controller-to-drive cable on my 11/23+ and RLV11 card, and it works perfectly. So now I'm just going in circles... that's enough for tonight! From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Feb 9 23:44:40 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2013 23:44:40 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? Message-ID: <6DD05A08-C1C8-4963-9C16-52C4811BB222@centurytel.net> At 01:27 AM 2/9/2013, Charles wrote: >I tried this program tonight, after making up a new ribbon cable that >had some mechanical damage which I was *hoping* would fix things :P > >A very interesting result - when I hit run, BOTH drives started >seeking and eventually Drive 1 faults. If I unload one of the drives, >the other one seeks when the test program is run. Doesn't matter if >unit 0 or 1 is the active drive! > >Time to start chasing a hardware (drive select) problem I guess... >sigh. Nothing like 30-40 year old hardware... That's what I was worried about. You're lucky that it hasn't scrambled the OS on your drives. :) >-Charles > >ps I think your "assembly listing" has a bug, at 0221 shouldn't that >read JMP 0204? Yup. The original for this (from the RL01/02 pocket service guide) didn't have anything to do a drive select so I added it in. That shifted everything, leading to all the offsets shifting. I missed fixing the comment there, but jmp to 0204 is correct. -Rick I'm pulling my hair out... I disconnected the 2nd drive and now just have one RL02 attached to my RL8A, with a terminator. A bit of background - I could not find a cable that goes from the 40 pin header on the controller card to the first drive, so I made one out of ribbon cable and IDC headers, removing the first external connector and just using headers as it does inside the drive. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the original cable has a "twist" somewhere in the drive selects like the old PC floppy cables, because... Although I can set and reset the two drive select bits on the RL8A, and the 75113 line drivers also change state appropriately, those signals are not reaching the correct place on the logic board inside the RL02! At the 75107 line receivers (E57), those two bits are always logic 00, i.e. drive 0. So the drive won't select at all unless I put the Unit 0 plug in, at which point it effectively ignores the drive select bits and always selects regardless of the state of those two bits at the controller. Confirming that the drive select lines are dead. The only thing between the line drivers and receivers is 6' of ribbon cable. It leaves the RL8A on J1 header pins TT, SS, RR, PP and is supposed to enter the RL02 logic board on J12 header pins C, D, E, F which accounts for the cable being reversed. Just in case I even tried flipping the header connector around and of course the drive won't load or work at all and the Fault light stays on, so I know I have it facing the right way. Unless it's possible to make a cable upside down and backwards, or some such? This setup DID previously run OS/8, ADVENT, FOCAL, whatever was on the pack, but only using one of the RL02's (I don't think I was ever able to access the other drive). I can't think of anything that could "lose" the drive select lines except a defective cable (will continuity-check tomorrow, even though I made a new one by copying the old one that used to work) or else the correct cable (BC80J-20) is not a straight-through pin for pin connection, in which case I have to have one. Just to further confuse things, I have the identical two-drive setup with homemade controller-to-drive cable on my 11/23+ and RLV11 card, and it works perfectly. So now I'm just going in circles... that's enough for tonight! EDIT: Additional note: When the two-drive system was running OS/8, I had the ribbon cable going to the bottom drive in the rack which had Unit 1 plug, then the proper BC20J cable from there to the top drive with Unit 0 plug. Makes me wonder anew if there is something non- obvious about the connections of the drive select lines within the DEC cables... From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 10 03:26:02 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 09:26:02 -0000 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> Yes, please don't scratch the tape before recovering the contents. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 10 February 2013 05:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Itch before scratching tape > > I was cleaning the head on one of my 9-track drives and used a tape that I've > had around for while to check my work. It's labeled VAX-11 FORTRAN > FORT046.A and seems to be backup tape for VAX FORTRAN 4.0. Total > length is only about 750KB. > > Anyone interested in the contents before I scratch the tape? > > --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 03:40:43 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 07:40:43 -0200 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> > But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with > all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less power consumption! ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and win. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Feb 10 05:11:27 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 05:11:27 -0600 Subject: Surplus HD's In-Reply-To: <31B10C31-B47D-4292-9015-F3CEBBB373C9@bu.edu> References: <511518C4.2070609@atarimuseum.com> <511582FC.8080703@telus.net> <20130209203815.GG16946@n0jcf.net> <31B10C31-B47D-4292-9015-F3CEBBB373C9@bu.edu> Message-ID: <20130210111127.GC1951@n0jcf.net> Excellent. Thank you very much. It looks like he now also offers a SCSI to SATA interface as well, http://www.ebay.com/itm/300858821021 Chris On Saturday (02/09/2013 at 03:53PM -0500), Paul Hagstrom wrote: > The guy who makes them sells them on eBay, under the name "artmix": > > http://www.ebay.com/sch/artmix/m.html > > They're still there. I have an AztecMonster that I got almost a year ago but I've not quite gotten around to trying it out, so I can vouch for their existence, but I can't yet say much about setup or reliability. My intention had been (still is) to put it in an SE/30. > > There's a Japanese information page here as well: > > http://www.artmix.com/CF_AztecMonster.html > > and a thread at 68kmla discussing it > > http://68kmla.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=17047 > > -Paul > > > On Feb 9, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > On Friday (02/08/2013 at 02:58PM -0800), John Robertson wrote: > >> > >> Granted SCSI to CF is more expensive - AztekMonster for example, but > >> it should be very reliable. > > > > Can you supply a link or reference to this "AztekMonster"? Everything I > > have found suggests it existed in 2008 but does not any more. > > > > Where would I buy one? > > > > -- > > Chris Elmquist > > > -- Chris Elmquist From jam at magic.com Sun Feb 10 07:20:08 2013 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 05:20:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Last of Don Maslin's collection available In-Reply-To: <51166F64.40708@bitsavers.org> References: <51166F64.40708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201302101320.FAA13323@mist.magic.com> > Tek 4012, and many, many S-100 boards These are interesting. Please forward my e-mail address along to her. Thanks, James Markevitch From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 10 11:04:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:04:13 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> Message-ID: <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> On 02/10/2013 04:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with >> all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. > > And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less > power consumption! > > ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main > players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay > attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one > believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and > win. That would be "dark horse contender" in English. I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point, but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 10 11:26:24 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:26:24 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> Message-ID: <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/02/13 4:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with >> all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. > > And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less > power consumption! > > ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main > players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay > attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one > believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and > win. > Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads? It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient than one CoolThreads CPU. --Toby From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 12:04:50 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:04:50 +0000 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5117E142.2090000@gmail.com> On 10/02/2013 17:26, Toby Thain wrote: > On 10/02/13 4:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with >>> all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. >> >> And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less >> power consumption! >> >> ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main >> players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay >> attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one >> believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and >> win. >> > > Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that > corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads? > > It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient > than one CoolThreads CPU. > > --Toby Have you priced a SPARC box recently? SUN really is targeting the high ground, and whilst they might be more reliable than Wintel I can't (usually) persuade my users to pay the costs. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 10 13:10:17 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:10:17 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> On 02/10/2013 01:26 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Yes, please don't scratch the tape before recovering the contents. Okay, I can even do a bit more--my dump was a straight-to-file, ignoring filemarks, so, for example, it starts with the VOL1 header. If you can describe the layout of a VMS backup tape file, I'll be happy to re-read the tape and segment off the stuff between filemarks. Might as well learn something in the process. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 10 13:38:00 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:38:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: networking via SCSI? In-Reply-To: <01OPZZ8K4YBY00154A@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Feb 9, 13 07:18:16 pm Message-ID: > I thought a CI coupler was mostly a transformer. If so, would a CI network > not behave much like a bus, even if it didn't look like one? A lot more like > a bus I would have thought than modern ethernet which neither looks nor > behaves like a bus. I know nothing about CI, so I can't comment on that, but who said anything about 'modern ethernet'? Classic ethernet, on coaxial cable, is a bus. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 10 13:46:30 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:46:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? In-Reply-To: <758CA7EA-39AB-4C45-961D-815CC40151D1@centurytel.net> from "Charles" at Feb 9, 13 11:31:17 pm Message-ID: > Although I can set and reset the two drive select bits on the RL8A, > and the 75113 line drivers also change state appropriately, those I asusme you mean that the outputs of the line drivers change state. If you're only checking the inputs, then the line driver might habve failed > signals are not reaching the correct place on the logic board inside > the RL02! At the 75107 line receivers (E57), those two bits are always I assunme (again) you checked the outputs of the line drivers on the RL8 controlelr with the cable and drives conencted. Just in case a short somewhare is killing the signals. So, you've got signals changing at one end of a bit of cable, not at the other. Have yoy checked for continuity? Have you made sure there's not a danaged pin in the conenctor. > logic 00, i.e. drive 0. So the drive won't select at all unless I put > the Unit 0 plug in, at which point it effectively ignores the drive > select bits and always selects regardless of the state of those two > bits at the controller. Confirming that the drive select lines are dead. > > The only thing between the line drivers and receivers is 6' of ribbon > cable. It leaves the RL8A on J1 header pins TT, SS, RR, PP and is > supposed to enter the RL02 logic board on J12 header pins C, D, E, F > which accounts for the cable being reversed. Just in case I even tried > flipping the header connector around and of course the drive won't > load or work at all and the Fault light stays on, so I know I have it > facing the right way. Unless it's possible to make a cable upside down > and backwards, or some such? I think if you're mad e the cable backwrds, then the drive 'energiser clock' is missign nad the drive Faults all the time. What exactly do you ahve i nthe way of cabling/connectors? The normal RL drives have a pair of DEC zero-insertion-force conenctors on them. How have you linked your ribbon cable to that? > I can't think of anything that could "lose" the drive select lines > except a defective cable (will continuity-check tomorrow, even though > I made a new one by copying the old one that used to work) or else the > correct cable (BC80J-20) is not a straight-through pin for pin > connection, in which case I have to have one. DO you have the printset f othe controller and drive? Surely you cna find the pinotus there and see ifhtey match up. Or use your continuity checker to trace the signal from the output of the line driver to a pin o nthe berg header, up the cable, to a pin on the RL02 logic board, then see if that makes sense. -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 14:24:27 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:24:27 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Okay, I can even do a bit more--my dump was a straight-to-file, ignoring > filemarks, so, for example, it starts with the VOL1 header. If you can > describe the layout of a VMS backup tape file, I'll be happy to re-read the > tape and segment off the stuff between filemarks. > > Might as well learn something in the process. > > --Chuck Wouldn't it be best to read it into a .TAP file format if you are going do anything with it? Are you using your PCTD16 controller or something else to read the tape? -Glen From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Feb 10 14:42:34 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 12:42:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/20 and KE11 (was Re: 11/35 questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FF312F5-7866-4E4C-A7EE-A6F7B87A96F5@shiresoft.com> On Feb 8, 2013, at 5:29 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Ahh, if the KE11-B will run in an 11/20, then I'll be hanging onto one >> of them, as I'm working on getting an 11/20. > > It will work in pretty much everything, AFAIK, since it's a peripheral > not a "CPU extension". The KE11-A is functionally identical but > built on the backplane peripheral model of the 11/20 and rare enough > that I never figured on running across one I could get. I know that > there's an occasional KE11-B running around since it's a single card. I was lucky enough to have a KE11-A for my 11/20 (and it works AFAIK). Other's I know have managed to come across KE11-Bs. > >> I'd love to see v1 UNIX running on real iron. > > Me too. It's no big shake to run it on a real PDP-11 - as long > as you have a KE11 of some kind in there _and_ you have > matching peripherals for the 1972-era code. I haven't tried > it, but I would be surprised to learn that you couldn't get > v1 UNIX working on an 11/04 (peripheral issues aside). > > What I really want to do (and it sounds like you do too) is > to run v1 UNIX not just on real iron, but the on the closest > approximate I can manage of what was used in 1972. One of the reasons that my MEM-11A project has been delayed (other than not having enough time and other life issues) is to provide enough functionality in one board to be able to run Unix v1. Right now it contains: - 128KW of memory (because getting enough memory reasonably in an 11/20 is hard) - Boot ROMs - LTC (of various flavors) - KE11A/B functionality - 2MW of RF11 - 2 SLUs The goal of this board is to be able to have a complete Unix V1 11/20 system contained within the 11/20 CPU chassis (other than the RK05 drives). I've come to the conclusion that I've done almost as much as I can with a Xilinx development board. I've done all of the part selection and am going to layout a board (SPC) and continue development on what I hope will be close to the final board but time will tell. Sorry, but I don't have a completion date yet. TTFN - Guy From ray at arachelian.com Sun Feb 10 14:59:15 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:59:15 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51180A23.5010006@arachelian.com> On 02/09/2013 03:04 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> This is true. But sales of *everything* are down. And more >> importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and >> now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. >> That's all I'm worried about. -Dave > > What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to > 11 already ? > > > Sadly, most have already moved on to Linux, which started when Sun was sold. Some even earlier due to costs of x86_64 vs SPARC. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 10 15:04:26 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 21:04:26 -0000 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <018801ce07d2$37256fd0$a5704f70$@ntlworld.com> I would agree, .tap file format certainly works for me. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 10 February 2013 20:24 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Itch before scratching tape > > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Okay, I can even do a bit more--my dump was a straight-to-file, > > ignoring filemarks, so, for example, it starts with the VOL1 header. > > If you can describe the layout of a VMS backup tape file, I'll be > > happy to re-read the tape and segment off the stuff between filemarks. > > > > Might as well learn something in the process. > > > > --Chuck > > Wouldn't it be best to read it into a .TAP file format if you are going do > anything with it? > > Are you using your PCTD16 controller or something else to read the tape? > > -Glen From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Feb 10 15:22:10 2013 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 21:22:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OpenSolaris is not dead yet, was Re: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE In-Reply-To: <51180A23.5010006@arachelian.com> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <5116A7D9.3040201@gmail.com> <5116AA49.10505@neurotica.com> <5116ABCC.5020902@gmail.com> <51180A23.5010006@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Feb 2013, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Sadly, most have already moved on to Linux, which started when Sun was > sold. Some even earlier due to costs of x86_64 vs SPARC. There are a large number of people running illumos. About half the talks at the Surge 2012 conference were by people running one of the illumos distributions in production (mostly SmartOS or OmniOS). Alexey From ray at arachelian.com Sun Feb 10 15:23:00 2013 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 16:23:00 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <51180FB4.4020401@arachelian.com> On 02/10/2013 12:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that > corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads? > > It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient > than one CoolThreads CPU. SPARC is awesome, there are some very good ideas in it. Between zones and LDOMs, you have almost everything you could want in terms of virtualization outside of intel. There were some problems with LDOMs early on such as needing to reboot in order to reconfigure certain things, but the later versions have gotten those fixed. Not sure what Oracle did with it, I haven't kept up. A few years before Sun imploded, a pair of T5140s with tons of RAM and some iSCSI or FCAL storage would be enough to run a small company and would consume less than half a rack. Java ran on those like greased lightning. Oh well... I guess in the end, it all depends on what Oracle wants to do with it, and had it left OpenSolaris open, it might have had a chance. The other other manfacturers, and I think Fuji made SPARCs that were used in supercomputers. Not sure generic SPARC boards are available out there at reasonable prices. It truly is a workhorse and always was. Register windows for the win. Oracle seems to be aiming at Fortune 100 only, but sadly for them Fortune 100 is as cutthroat as possible price wise, and except for existing systems, they are more likely to remove SPARC and switch to linux on x86_64... Sadly, like the Alpha, and MIPS, it's likely to fall to the side. I guess there's still POWER and ARM for now, and ARM's taking off for consumer toys. I do like my Android tablets and phone, and they're quite nice devices, but they're not powerful. In terms of OS, we still have openindiana and a whole family of operating systems, and ports of ZFS based off it. My home server runs oi151a7 and I'm very happy with it. But, it's on intel, and such as it is, it's still a good server for home use. I do have a T1000 that I've been meaning to fix - had some bad RAM which I recently replaced. I'm now regretting purchasing that RAM, now that I see prices for other T-series boxes drop. :) Infact, it's on my kitchen table, I literally just blew the dust out of its insides (was complaining about voltage drops and the old memory failures, and blowing out the dust from underneath the motherboard allowed me to power it on finally.) Sorry, this is offtopic, but how does one run OpenSXCE on a T1000? Is there some sort of jumstart available for it? I suppose I can run proper Solaris 11.1 on it, or good old Solaris 10. Many months ago I tried to get Solaris 10 installed on it but couldn't do it anyway except via jumpstart. Attaching a SATA DVD drive did not allow booting, not even after adding the right device aliases in the openboot-prom. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 10 15:32:03 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:32:03 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511811D3.7070002@sydex.com> On 02/10/2013 12:24 PM, Glen Slick wrote: Are you using your PCTD16 controller or something else to read the tape? Yes, the PCTD16. Just using the raw TapeOut funciton. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 15:37:48 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 16:37:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 and KE11 (was Re: 11/35 questions) In-Reply-To: <6FF312F5-7866-4E4C-A7EE-A6F7B87A96F5@shiresoft.com> References: <6FF312F5-7866-4E4C-A7EE-A6F7B87A96F5@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I was lucky enough to have a KE11-A for my 11/20 (and it works AFAIK). > Other's I know have managed to come across KE11-Bs. Nice. I wouldn't turn up my nose at either one. >>> I'd love to see v1 UNIX running on real iron. > One of the reasons that my MEM-11A project has been delayed > (other than not having enough time and other life issues) is to > provide enough functionality in one board to be able to run Unix > v1. Cool! > Right now it contains: > - 128KW of memory (because getting enough memory > reasonably in an 11/20 is hard) No doubt. I have somewhere between 4-6 memory backplanes and card sets minus at least one core plane (saved by a fellow employee who helped me rescue this machine from the dumpster). I _might_ be able to get it back from him _if_ I sent him another plane with a clear cover to hang on his wall. I should have a better handle on what I have and what I need in the next few weeks when I move this and other "interesting" items. > - KE11A/B functionality Sweet! > - 2MW of RF11 Sweeter! > The goal of this board is to be able to have a complete Unix V1 > 11/20 system contained within the 11/20 CPU chassis (other than > the RK05 drives). I was going to get a MEM-11A *anyway*. This makes it so much more appealing. Now I might get two, one to leave in the 11/20 and one to float between my other older Unibus machines. > Sorry, but I don't have a completion date yet. No worries. I wouldn't have my 11/20 in a working state this year anyway. Too many other projects in the pipeline. If I didn't have to completely re-do all the DC power supply wiring, it might be feasible. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 15:50:04 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:50:04 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <511811D3.7070002@sydex.com> References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> <511811D3.7070002@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yes, the PCTD16. Just using the raw TapeOut funciton. > > --Chuck I have a real mode MS-DOS program I wrote to read a physical tape into a .TAP file using the PCTD16. I'll have to find a copy of it if you are interested. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Feb 10 15:50:09 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 21:50:09 +0000 Subject: SelectaDock I Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F71014@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi! I know they're not quite classic as some of the other systems discussed on this list, but anyone have a SelectaDock I in decent condition they'd like to part with? Thanks in advance! -Ben From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 10 16:56:52 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 14:56:52 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> <511811D3.7070002@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511825B4.4030409@sydex.com> On 02/10/2013 01:50 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Yes, the PCTD16. Just using the raw TapeOut funciton. >> >> --Chuck > > I have a real mode MS-DOS program I wrote to read a physical tape into > a .TAP file using the PCTD16. I'll have to find a copy of it if you > are interested. Sure--otherwise I can use mine that simply creates a new file for tape date between filemarks. --Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Feb 10 17:51:17 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 00:51:17 +0100 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> Message-ID: <20130210235116.GA18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0200, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with > >all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. > > And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and > less power consumption! > > ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the > main players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay > attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one > believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, > and win. We'll see. For that, ARM has to seriously crank up computational capacity. Currently, a rule of thumb is that a single core ARM CPU gives you about the computer power of a modern x86 core running at a quarter the clock speed. All that crazy effort of massive caching, long pipelines, predictors and so on _does_ pay off ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Feb 10 17:57:41 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 00:57:41 +0100 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:04:13PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/10/2013 04:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with > >> all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. > > > > And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less > > power consumption! > > > > ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main > > players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay > > attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one > > believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and > > win. > > That would be "dark horse contender" in English. > > I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point, > but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move > into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the > server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work > with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a > server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my > world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world) Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess) of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and not much more. There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this: http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451 Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine. The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well. The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 10 18:40:14 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:40:14 -0500 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point, >> but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move >> into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the >> server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work >> with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a >> server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my >> world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world) > > Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess) > of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and > not much more. > > There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this: > > http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451 > > Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of > memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right > next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine. > The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well. > > The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be > doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform. I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use them in that capacity every day. Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 19:01:55 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 17:01:55 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51184303.5060307@gmail.com> On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I > need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! -Dave That thing is nuts. Check out how small it is. Wonder how hot that heatsink gets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiov-bgz9w From jws at jwsss.com Sun Feb 10 19:21:02 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 17:21:02 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5118477E.7030606@jwsss.com> On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451 >> > >> >Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of >> >memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right >> >next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine. >> >The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well. >> > >> >> Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I >> need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! >> >> -Dave Samsung Galaxy Note 2 I have has this processor Processor : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v71) processor : 0 bogomips : 1592.52 processor: : 1 BogoMIPS : 3185.04 processor : 3 BogoMIPS : 3185.04 features : swp half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls CPU implementer : 0x41 CPU Architecture: 7 CPU Varient : 0x3 CPU part : 0xc09 CPU revision : 0 Chip revision : 0020 Hardware : SMDK4x12 revision : 000a Serial : 2d1a7f1942f10c1b Jim From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Feb 10 19:18:24 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 02:18:24 +0100 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> References: <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20130211011824.GC18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:14PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > >> I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point, > >> but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move > >> into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the > >> server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work > >> with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a > >> server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my > >> world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world) > > > > Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess) > > of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and > > not much more. > > > > There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this: > > > > http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451 > > > > Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of > > memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right > > next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine. > > The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well. > > > > The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be > > doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform. > > I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor > market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use > them in that capacity every day. > > Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I > need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! Hehe. I'm currently working on a talk labelled "Raspberry Pi & Friends" for a Linux conference in Germany in march where I'm going to talk about, yes, the ubiquituous Raspbery Pi[0] - and also about a bunch of _other_ interesting ARM boards providing quite a bit of bang for small bucks, including the ODROID machines, Hackberry, ... so I'm looking rather closely at what is in the market right now. And let me tell you, it looks damn impressive. Even the Hackberry: 1.2 GHz single core ARM, 1 GB of RAM, Ethernet & WiFi for $65. The amount of machine one can get for very little money these days .. also they are _quiet_ (no fans) and suck down very little power. So you can just stuff them quietly in some corner ... Kind regards, Alex. [0] It definitely needs a set of slides called "The good, the bad, the ugly" because there is plenty of all three there. One shouldn't look to closely at the details of the Raspberri Pi after a good meal. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From jam at magic.com Sun Feb 10 19:57:56 2013 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 17:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: 11/35 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1360301203.45972.YahooMailRC@web181303.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <51153DFC.3010804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201302110157.RAA15126@mist.magic.com> On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:15:50 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I *think* I have a couple KE11-B boards here. (Sadly no compatible > > machines to put them in.) I'll go check if you like; let me know. > > You can put me on the list of interested parties. I am about to move > my 11/20 from long-term storage to a place where I can work on it - it > needs *lots* of restoration work since I recovered it from a dumpster, > literally, and one of my goals is to try to get v1 UNIX running on it > (which requires a KE11). > > I'm not in a hurry - I still have to repair lots of things and I have > to come up with a way to replace the RS11 swap disk that UNIX is > expecting, but once I get the CPU restored and the external memory > cabinets fixed up and powered (and a missing core plane replaced), I > can turn to diagnosing and repairing my RK11C, *then* I'll be in a > place to worry about a small, fast swap disk. I got v1 running on my 11/20 about a year and a half ago. I bolted a Nexys2 board onto a quad-height wire-wrap board with Unibus transceivers and a bunch of latches/buffers to handle the 5V/3.3V level shifting (as well as to mux the large number of Unibus signals to/from the Nexys2). The code in the Xilinx has 4MB of Unibus memory, RF11, RK11/RK05, KE11-A, KW11L, as well as other Unibus peripherals. The on-board flash contains the bootstraps, initial loads for various software images, and multiple RF11 and RK05 images. It ran on my real 11/20 and a real KL11, but all of the other peripherals were emulated on the board. I took some pictures of it running with an ASR 33 for the editors of an IEEE article, but the pictures probably weren't interesting enough and didn't make it into the article. One of these years, I'll get around to running using a real KE11-A, RK05, TU56, and PC05. I also have a 3rd party RF11-compatible disk, though running that is a long-shot, so the RF11 will probably remain the one emulated peripheral. On a side note ... the Xilinx also contains a full PDP-11 CPU, so the whole thing can even run standalone. One of the peripheral emulators in it is for the graphic processor used in the Galaxy Game. This got hooked up inside an original Galaxy Game cabinet with original joysticks for use at the California Extreme video game event last summer (the Galaxy Game cabinet with the original PDP-11/15 in it is running at the CHM). In fact, the original purpose of the Nexys2 code was to convert the vector graphics output from the Galaxy Game into a frame buffer to drive an SXGA compatible monitor. The scope of the code in the Xilinx kind of grew from there and I still end up adding things into it every six months or so. James Markevitch From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Feb 10 20:33:14 2013 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 20:33:14 -0600 Subject: Using two RL02 drives on OS/8? Message-ID: <3DD8221E-BC5E-4693-93E7-9C75965766BB@centurytel.net> The connections from the drive select outputs on the RL8A checked perfectly to the line receiver inputs on the RL logic board. While I appreciate Rick's taking the time to make me a selectable version of the RL02 oscillating seek.... he included a bug at no charge too ;) Specifically, the constant at 0230 (0100) selects the appropriate drive and resets it all right (0101 in AC). But - later on down the program, the SEEK (03) command is issued with another RLCB... however, the AC is forced to 0003 by the microprogrammed 7325. (As is probably apparent by now, the AC must have 0103 in it to select Drive 1). I edited the program to use a TAD 0231 and put the constant at 0231. So instead of the CLA CLL CML IAC RAL (load AC with 03 the hard way, an old-time DEC programmer's way to save one word when memory was a precious commodity) :) the AC now loads with 0103 and lo and behold, Drive 1 seeks merrily away! Restore the two constants to Drive 0 and THAT drive seeks. OK. However, all was not lost... during the couple of hours of chasing my tail wondering where the LSB of the drive select was going, I found that I had inserted the header into the RL logic board crookedly and bent two pins, one in the wrong hole and one shoved aside! :( Not only that, the line driver chip which provides the drive select signals had come from the factory with NO solder at all on its Vcc pin 16! =:^O Fixed that too. I think the OS/8 packs have been wiped out by now... various FAULT lights coming on, especially on the 2nd drive in the chain... going to build another system pack with VTserver which takes a good half-hour or more at 19200 baud. Hope the servo tracks are ok, otherwise I'll need to buy a couple of good packs! -Charles From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 10 20:56:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:56:15 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <51183F82.9090908@sydex.com> References: <511729E5.5000503@sydex.com> <00d201ce0770$a6c9fcf0$f45df6d0$@ntlworld.com> <5117F099.3070201@sydex.com> <511811D3.7070002@sydex.com> <511825B4.4030409@sydex.com> <51183F82.9090908@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51185DCF.3030309@sydex.com> I discovered two reels of tape--I assume that they're just different versions FORT045 and FORT046, as they have different dates (86 and 87) printed on them. Glenn has the ZIP of the TAP files. I can send copies to whoever wants them. Do let me know if either amounts to a hill of beans. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Feb 10 21:31:21 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 01:31:21 -0200 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <13EBA450B1844FED942555A0B67F6594@tababook> > Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that corresponds > to Niagara and CoolThreads? > It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient than > one CoolThreads CPU. Well, unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on sparc architeture (beyond knowing they were used in playstation 1 and one of the nintendo consoles (N64 or Gamecube, I'm not sure which) so I cannot develop this talk From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 00:14:33 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 22:14:33 -0800 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <13EBA450B1844FED942555A0B67F6594@tababook> References: <20130207091335.A2113@shell.lmi.net> <5113F1A6.5020909@landcomp.net> <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D840.50602@telegraphics.com.au> <13EBA450B1844FED942555A0B67F6594@tababook> Message-ID: <51188C49.8080400@gmail.com> On 2/10/2013 7:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that >> corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads? >> It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient >> than one CoolThreads CPU. > > Well, unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on sparc > architeture (beyond knowing they were used in playstation 1 and one of > the nintendo consoles (N64 or Gamecube, I'm not sure which) so I > cannot develop this talk > The PS1 used a MIPS R3000, the N64 was a MIPS R4300 variant. The Gamecube was a PPC variant, IIRC. Off the top of my head, I think the 3DO was ARM-based. - Josh From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 00:33:14 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 06:33:14 +0000 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era Message-ID: <1174209555-1360564390-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-573663233-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think it depends which country you're in. I believe the quad core galaxy phone and tablet became dual core state side for some reason. From merrony at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 07:48:12 2013 From: merrony at gmail.com (Steve Merrony) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 13:48:12 +0000 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media Message-ID: <5118F69C.9090001@googlemail.com> I'm trying to restore a Data General MV/2500 (c.1989) which contains what DG referred to as a '130MB CTD'. It's actually a Fujistu M2451A. My question is: what is the latest generation of DLTs that I can use in the drive? Will DLTtape III cartridges work or do I have to try to find CompacTape IIs from somewhere? Thanks, Steve Restoration website: http://stephen.homedns.org/dg/ From doc at vaxen.net Mon Feb 11 11:04:36 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 11:04:36 -0600 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <20130210235116.GA18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <20130210235116.GA18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <511924A4.8000109@vaxen.net> On 2/10/13 5:51 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0200, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with >>> all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*. >> >> And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and >> less power consumption! > > We'll see. For that, ARM has to seriously crank up computational capacity. > Currently, a rule of thumb is that a single core ARM CPU gives you about > the computer power of a modern x86 core running at a quarter the clock > speed. All that crazy effort of massive caching, long pipelines, predictors > and so on _does_ pay off ;-) Consider the "VMware Principle" - the idea that a huge percentage of current company/corporate servers are running at a tiny fraction of their CPU capacity. Until recently it's been very difficult to get lower-powered processor options in a server class board. IPMI, ILO, redundant power supplies, watchdog capacity, etc, have always put you into premium processors with their attendant power and cooling budgets. I suspect that the new ARM server-class systems will fit VERY nicely into that gap. Doc From xmechanic at landcomp.net Mon Feb 11 11:21:22 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:21:22 -0700 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51192892.7050909@landcomp.net> On 2/10/13 5:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point, >>> but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move >>> into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the >>> server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work >>> with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a >>> server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my >>> world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world) >> >> Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess) >> of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and >> not much more. >> >> There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this: >> >> http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G135341370451 >> >> Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of >> memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right >> next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine. >> The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well. >> >> The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be >> doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform. > > I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor > market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use > them in that capacity every day. > > Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I > need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! > > -Dave Very cool stuff that Exynos4412 board. They have several others available too, it seems. I may have to get one myself, and build something cool. :D Amazing how much stuff they can cram into a board, half the size of a credit card! Incidentally, one could easily run a webserver with one of those and a 64gb. EMMC card with Ubuntu 12.10. They already have 2 gb. of RAM built-in. Dave Land Land Computer Service > From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 11 12:01:12 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:01:12 +0000 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > I'm trying to restore a Data General MV/2500 (c.1989) which contains what DG referred to as a '130MB CTD'. It's actually a Fujistu M2451A. > My question is: what is the latest generation of DLTs that I can use in the drive? Will DLTtape III cartridges work or do I have to try to find CompacTape IIs from somewhere? I know that TK50's and TK70's cannot use DLTtape III cartridges. Coercivity of the magnetic media is wrong. Some of the mid-generation DLT drives can read TK50 and TK70 CompacTapes but cannot write them. I don't have any actual experience with the M2451A. I am guessing that it is something like a DEC TZ30. For all I know, maybe Fujitsu made the TZ30! It "smells" different than the DEC and Quantum drives and I've often wondered about that. That's a tough nut, restoring a system to use a tape drive for which you have no media. If you had old media to read, then it would be far easier to justify some effort. Is the M2451A a SCSI drive? Just hoping out loud that it is, and that the DG OS doesn't care about drive maker, in which case you could use a far more available cartridge drive and carts instead. Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 11 12:29:01 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 10:29:01 -0800 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <5119386D.5060807@bitsavers.org> On 2/11/13 10:01 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Is the M2451A a SCSI drive? yes. if you look at Fujitsu_America_Computer_Products_Reference_Guide_1990.pdf on bitsavers there is a short description I had thought it was its own thing, though, and not compatible with DLT. From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Mon Feb 11 16:02:39 2013 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:02:39 -0500 Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S2I:96] Version 0.3 S2I Firmware Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f801ce08a3$9b888530$d2998f90$@YAHOO.COM> Hi Update on the SCSI to IDE/SD project S2I. A lot of recent progress. Still looking for testers. Thanks! Andrew Lynch Hi Folks, I have just uploaded developmental firmware version 0.3. Here is what I remember of the changes made: * Support for either IDE or SD Card interface * Support for Pseudo-DMA (you MUST mod your prototype card for this to work) * Support for on-chip target device selection * Substantially improved handling of status codes and sense bytes * Substantial refactoring of protocol phases -- much cleaner and more modular Still looking for testers!!! -Wayne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "N8VEM-S2I" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to n8vem-s2i+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. From slandon110 at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 19:06:25 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 20:06:25 -0500 Subject: FS: Macs ready to find homes Message-ID: <51199591.5080409@gmail.com> I got the following PowerMacs ready to go A PowerMac 8500 with 48MB RAM and a 1GB HDD- Running Rhapsody Dev Release 2 with throw in more ram $75 shipped a PowerMac 9500 with 160MB RAM 1GB HDD running MacOS 7.6 $125 shipped a Quadra 650 with 16MB RAM and a 1GB HDD running MacOS 7.6- Will throw in some 32MB SIMMS $50 shipped 50 PIN SCSI Hard Drives, Any Size $15 dollars shipped each, Let me know what size you need Keep watching the list as I go through and prep more machines for sale. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 20:28:32 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:28:32 -0800 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media In-Reply-To: <5119386D.5060807@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <5119386D.5060807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> Is the M2451A a SCSI drive? > > > yes. if you look at > Fujitsu_America_Computer_Products_Reference_Guide_1990.pdf on bitsavers > there is a short description > I had thought it was its own thing, though, and not compatible with DLT. > > SCSI yes. I thought it was a DDS cartridge tape drive. It is not DLT at all. If it is a DDS you can find auxillary drives that should read DDS DAT tapes. Like DLT there are 1 through 4 versions (i.e. DDS or DDS1, DDS2, etc.), usually backward compatible. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 11 20:43:20 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:43:20 -0800 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <5119386D.5060807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5119AC48.1030106@bitsavers.org> On 2/11/13 6:28 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: >>> Is the M2451A a SCSI drive? >> >> >> yes. if you look at >> Fujitsu_America_Computer_Products_Reference_Guide_1990.pdf on bitsavers >> there is a short description >> I had thought it was its own thing, though, and not compatible with DLT. >> >> > > > SCSI yes. > > I thought it was a DDS cartridge tape drive. It takes a cartridge similar to the IBM 3480 From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Feb 11 20:41:54 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 03:41:54 +0100 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <51184303.5060307@gmail.com> References: <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <5117D30D.4090608@neurotica.com> <20130210235741.GB18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <51183DEE.1020603@neurotica.com> <51184303.5060307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130212024153.GA16389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 05:01:55PM -0800, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think > >I need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! -Dave > > That thing is nuts. Check out how small it is. The relentless march of progress ;-) > Wonder how hot that heatsink gets Not that hot. I ran a kernel build with -j6 (6 parallel make processes) on the U2 and while it got warm, it was still comfortable to touch. Same for the X2. Keep in mind that the power brick is only rated for 10 W. Thermal budget wise, this is miles away from current Intel design. It is also quite a bit _slower_ than current Intel designs, but still plenty fast. If you only need moderate spec workstation for office, web and mail work, it might fit the bill. Moreso if you are on a tight power budget (think your power coming from, say, solar arrays on a boat/in a cabin). But yeah, those tiny machines are _impressive_. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 11 22:07:29 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:07:29 -0700 Subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era In-Reply-To: <511924A4.8000109@vaxen.net> References: <20130207115142.K4207@shell.lmi.net> <51159212.3030209@arachelian.com> <5115EE35.5090008@neurotica.com> <51169A61.5030204@gmail.com> <51169DBF.3070403@neurotica.com> <5116A250.1010601@gmail.com> <5116A4CE.1030204@neurotica.com> <274A5DAD2157440BBE98BBD0FDF210FB@tababook> <20130210235116.GA18283@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <511924A4.8000109@vaxen.net> Message-ID: In article <511924A4.8000109 at vaxen.net>, Doc writes: > Consider the "VMware Principle" - the idea that a huge percentage of > current company/corporate servers are running at a tiny fraction of > their CPU capacity. Companies like Fusion-io are changing this by replacing (relative to the CPU) slow rotating storage with flash memory. Fusion-io has many customers who pay for the expensive hardware by reducing the amount of CPUs they are using to achieve the same aggregate throughput. Fewer processors means less money they spend on Oracle licenses to achieve their desired aggregate performance. In some cases, the reduction in licensing alone can pay for the hardware in under a year. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 11 23:04:17 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 05:04:17 +0000 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B743369E8@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Is this the "ANSI X3.174" tape cartridge maybe? Matches parameters in Fujitsu_America_Computer_Products_Reference_Guide_1990.pdf as in 12000 bpi, 20 tracks, MFM. IBM'ers called the 3480 cart, "38K BPI format". The Fujitsu drive I used that did 3480's, was the Fujitsu 2481, which is on the next page of the above referenced Fujitsu 1990 reference guide and they call "37,871 bpi". From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue Feb 12 00:00:44 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 06:00:44 +0000 Subject: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone on here have one of these? Anyone manage to get one working on a standard serial port, or have the pinout? Thanks! -Ben From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Feb 12 00:32:23 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 06:32:23 +0000 (GMT+00:00) Subject: AW: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> I have several, not for sale though. They are used for my Lilith workstation. Tried to get them working on a serial port, using an existing serial mouse, but did not manage. Somehow there is a difference in the quadrature signals, I did not investigate further. I reconstructed its schematic, together with the rest of the Lilith, results are here : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/CAD/extern.sch Eagle CAD format, mouse is in extern.sch. Jos ---- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht---- Von: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Datum: 12.02.2013 07:00 An: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Betreff: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse Anyone on here have one of these? Anyone manage to get one working on a standard serial port, or have the pinout? Thanks! -Ben From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 12 00:54:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:54:19 -0800 Subject: AW: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5119E71B.7060100@sydex.com> On 02/11/2013 10:32 PM, jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: > I have several, not for sale though. They are used for my Lilith workstation. > > Tried to get them working on a serial > port, using an existing serial mouse, but did not manage. > Somehow there is a difference in the quadrature signals, I > did not investigate further. > > I reconstructed its schematic, together with the rest of the Lilith, results are here : > > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/CAD/extern.sch > > Eagle CAD format, mouse is in extern.sch. O get am "access denied" error when I try to connect to your ftp server. --Chuck From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Feb 12 01:10:33 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 07:10:33 +0000 (GMT+00:00) Subject: AW: Re: AW: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <5119E71B.7060100@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> <5119E71B.7060100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <23573443.5551360653033774.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> ----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht---- Von: cclist at sydex.com Datum: 12.02.2013 07:54 An: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Betreff: Re: AW: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse On 02/11/2013 10:32 PM, jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: > I have several, not for sale though. They are used for my Lilith workstation. > > Tried to get them working on a serial > port, using an existing serial mouse, but did not manage. > Somehow there is a difference in the quadrature signals, I > did not investigate further. > > I reconstructed its schematic, together with the rest of the Lilith, results are here : > > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/CAD/extern.sch > > Eagle CAD format, mouse is in extern.sch. >O get am "access denied" error when I try to connect to your ftp server. Had no issues connecting to it externally, using Firefox. However i just received a new ADSL modem, had to reconfigre the setuop, and things might not be 100%. Let me know per PM how you access the server, so I can start debugging. Thanks, Jos From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 12 01:27:05 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 23:27:05 -0800 Subject: AW: Re: AW: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <23573443.5551360653033774.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> <5119E71B.7060100@sydex.com> <23573443.5551360653033774.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5119EEC9.10200@sydex.com> On 02/11/2013 11:10 PM, jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: > Let me know per PM how you access the server, so I can start > debugging. > > Thanks, Jos Don't bother--I left my browser configured through a now non-existent proxy server. False alarm. It's late and I'd better go to bed, rather than make more stupid mistakes. Thanks for the schematic. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 01:35:01 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 02:35:01 -0500 Subject: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 1:32 AM, jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: > I have several, not for sale though. They are used for my Lilith workstation. If anyone is looking to buy, I might be able to help. > Tried to get them working on a serial > port, using an existing serial mouse, but did not manage. > Somehow there is a difference in the quadrature signals, I > did not investigate further. I have thought of doing something like that but to attach one to an Amiga. Haven't tried it yet. > I reconstructed its schematic, together with the rest of the Lilith, results are here : > > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/CAD/extern.sch Thanks for sharing that. -ethan From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue Feb 12 01:58:20 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 07:58:20 +0000 Subject: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> <2168045.2311360650743187.JavaMail.webmail@bluewin.ch>, Message-ID: <3609B3C2-B1AF-4A79-9A30-DAD7100035AC@mail2.cu-portland.edu> How much would you want for 'em? -Ben Sent from my iPad On Feb 11, 2013, at 11:36 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 1:32 AM, jdr_use at bluewin.ch wrote: >> I have several, not for sale though. They are used for my Lilith workstation. > > If anyone is looking to buy, I might be able to help. > >> Tried to get them working on a serial >> port, using an existing serial mouse, but did not manage. >> Somehow there is a difference in the quadrature signals, I >> did not investigate further. > > I have thought of doing something like that but to attach one > to an Amiga. Haven't tried it yet. > >> I reconstructed its schematic, together with the rest of the Lilith, results are here : >> >> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/CAD/extern.sch > > Thanks for sharing that. > > -ethan From jonas at otter.se Mon Feb 11 14:42:34 2013 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:42:34 +0100 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511957BA.80303@otter.se> On Sun, 10 Feb 2013 18:56:15 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I discovered two reels of tape--I assume that they're just different > versions FORT045 and FORT046, as they have different dates (86 and 87) > printed on them. > > Glenn has the ZIP of the TAP files. I can send copies to whoever wants > them. > > Do let me know if either amounts to a hill of beans. > > --Chuck > Wouldn't that be VMS installation tapes for FORTRAN v. 4.5 and v.4.6? It sounds like what they would be labelled. /Jonas From steve at tronola.com Mon Feb 11 15:53:49 2013 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 16:53:49 -0500 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> Hi Folks, I just heard that the Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 partial kit is being offered as a Kickstarter project: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica There are just 12-days left until the project expires. It currently has 11 of 30 slots filled. Only 30-slots are available and all must be filled for the project to be funded. I have signed up for one, so I'm hoping that it goes forward! Steve L. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Feb 11 16:45:57 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:45:57 -0500 Subject: Computing - then & now Message-ID: Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or knowledge. Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Vintage/classic computing were the safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and so much more. Murray-- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Feb 12 03:36:53 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:36:53 +0000 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or at least programming skills. I think the Vintage/classic years were more exciting, but maybe that was because I was a kid, and these adults let me play with all this cool adult stuff! (And sometimes they didn't let me, but I did anyway...) On 11 February 2013 22:45, Murray McCullough wrote: > Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a > hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do > what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or > knowledge. Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted > what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Vintage/classic computing were the > safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to > be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and > so much more. > > Murray-- -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 12 09:09:58 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:09:58 +0100 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 Message-ID: Hi, Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Feb 12 09:11:09 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:11:09 -0500 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511A5B8D.3050100@compsys.to> >John Many Jars wrote: >Or at least programming skills. I think the Vintage/classic years >were more exciting, but maybe that was because I was a kid, and these >adults let me play with all this cool adult stuff! (And sometimes >they didn't let me, but I did anyway...) > >On 11 February 2013 22:45, Murray McCullough > wrote: > > >>Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a >>hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do >>what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or >>knowledge. Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted >>what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Vintage/classic computing were the >>safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to >>be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and >>so much more. >> It was possible to feel the same way even when we were officially adults, but still going to school. Back in 1960 when I was just 22, the adults let me play with an IBM 650 (which was probably about as fast as a calculator is today although it at least had 2000 words of memory on a drum for both program and data - no core yet even back then). The IBM 650 was a room with a single computer and Air Conditioning. There was no operating system and ONLY one person at a time could use the hardware. My program took an hour to calculate one value and I was able to get time from midnight until the first person on the morning shift took over (and stored the results produced on punched cards in my box) when they cane into use the computer in the morning. So I never had to learn how to solder anything. Maybe that is why I am a software addict rather than the more "normal" hardware addict which is on this list. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 09:27:58 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:27:58 -0500 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2013, at 10:09 AM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > Hi, > > Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a > CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? That's half the equation; you also need to replace the CSR decode PAL with the /TM version. Glen Slick has the PALASM equations up somewhere for a workalike; I've verified that they work using a GAL22V10, which is both rewriteable if something goes wrong and also a whole lot more available these days. - Dave From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 09:28:03 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:28:03 -0600 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: <511A5B8D.3050100@compsys.to> References: <511A5B8D.3050100@compsys.to> Message-ID: A big part of the reason IMO for the excitement in the earlier years of computing technology was that models were varying and unique, whereas today they are uniform and ubiquitous. There's not much today that differentiates computers from the desktop machine on up to super computers except for the scale. "Back then" computers used a variety of different processors and had different models had strong points to them, storage technology was different, etc. Not to say that modern day computing technology isn't impressive. But we have since at least the last decade or two entered an era of incremental changes rather than radical ones. On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >John Many Jars wrote: > > Or at least programming skills. I think the Vintage/classic years >> were more exciting, but maybe that was because I was a kid, and these >> adults let me play with all this cool adult stuff! (And sometimes >> they didn't let me, but I did anyway...) >> >> On 11 February 2013 22:45, Murray McCullough >> wrote: >> >> >>> Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a >>> hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do >>> what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or >>> knowledge. Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted >>> what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Vintage/classic computing were the >>> safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to >>> be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and >>> so much more. >>> >>> It was possible to feel the same way even when we were > officially adults, but still going to school. Back in 1960 > when I was just 22, the adults let me play with an > IBM 650 (which was probably about as fast as a > calculator is today although it at least had 2000 words > of memory on a drum for both program and data - no > core yet even back then). The IBM 650 was a room > with a single computer and Air Conditioning. There was > no operating system and ONLY one person at a time > could use the hardware. My program took an hour to > calculate one value and I was able to get time from > midnight until the first person on the morning shift took > over (and stored the results produced on punched cards > in my box) when they cane into use the computer in the > morning. > > So I never had to learn how to solder anything. Maybe > that is why I am a software addict rather than the more > "normal" hardware addict which is on this list. > > Jerome Fine > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Feb 12 09:25:54 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:25:54 -0500 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511A5F02.4070603@compsys.to> >E. Groenenberg wrote: >Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a >CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? > I always though that there were just 3 different boards: (a) CQD 220/TM (b) CQD 220/M (c) CQD 220/T If so, the CQD 220/T/M would already support both tape and disk, but perhaps not at the same time as a CQD 220/TM is able to do? Can anyone conform this? Jerome Fine From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 09:35:06 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 07:35:06 -0800 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2013 7:13 AM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > > Hi, > > Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a > CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? > > Thanks, > > Ed I have never personally used a 220/T/M You can upgrade a 220/T or a 220/M to a /TM by replacing the EPROMs and the CSR decode PAL and I have done so. Don't know if you also need to replace to CSR PAL on the /T/M. Is there a P220xxxx or similar part number on the PAL? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 12 09:56:09 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:56:09 -0700 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: <511A5B8D.3050100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <511A6619.6030101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/12/2013 8:28 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > A big part of the reason IMO for the excitement in the earlier years of > computing technology was that models were varying and unique, whereas today > they are uniform and ubiquitous. There's not much today that differentiates > computers from the desktop machine on up to super computers except for the > scale. "Back then" computers used a variety of different processors and had > different models had strong points to them, storage technology was > different, etc. > > Not to say that modern day computing technology isn't impressive. But we > have since at least the last decade or two entered an era of incremental > changes rather than radical ones. > Nah. The same as before, the SUITS still have the power. The average person has the illusion of personal computing. Very little can be done with typical computer, all development is still done on BIGGER machines. The other Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 09:57:21 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:57:21 -0500 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: <511A5F02.4070603@compsys.to> References: <511A5F02.4070603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <71DB53FF-060B-4CCC-A306-2E661414034F@gmail.com> On Feb 12, 2013, at 10:25 AM, "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a >> CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? >> > I always though that there were just 3 different boards: > > (a) CQD 220/TM > (b) CQD 220/M > (c) CQD 220/T > > If so, the CQD 220/T/M would already support both tape > and disk, but perhaps not at the same time as a CQD 220/TM > is able to do? Perhaps I misinterpreted the question, but I thought he meant shorthand for EITHER a /T or an /M. I'm not aware of a /T/M model, either. - Dave From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 12 11:04:13 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 18:04:13 +0100 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f87aaddb0611d547314ed80a57ae304.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, I collected them form the garage and now they are on my desk. The label says CQD-220A/M/T, 34056, B1EF2L The firmware is F220AE1F2L & F220AE2F2L One of the chips on the upper right is having a white label with 'warranty void....' the other has no label and bears the text 'qlogic' & 'EGP04804'. I hope they are M & T, buy I guess they are either M or T (switchable). Ed > On Feb 12, 2013 7:13 AM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Just wondering, is it possible to upgrade a CMD CQD-220/T/M to a >> CQD-220/TM by replacing the 2 firmware eproms? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Ed > > I have never personally used a 220/T/M You can upgrade a 220/T or a 220/M > to a /TM by replacing the EPROMs and the CSR decode PAL and I have done > so. > > Don't know if you also need to replace to CSR PAL on the /T/M. Is there a > P220xxxx or similar part number on the PAL? > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 12 12:01:34 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:01:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130212095032.M21099@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote: > Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a > hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do > what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or > knowledge. "Today they do IT"??!? What is "IT"? Does that actually reference "what you wanted them to do"?? They certainly do things without input and/or knowledge, but not necessarily what you wanted them to do! > Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted > what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Didn't we all? ". . . They will be everywhere, and in everything. You'll have computers in watches, rings, earrings, fillings in your teeth, and IMPLANTED. cf. "President's Analyst" And, if the SUITS get control, they will do all sorts of things you don't want and don't know about." > Vintage/classic computing were the > safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to > be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and > so much more. Much more exciting. Current stuff is locked up - it is DIFFICULT to make anything new or change anything existing. We are being forced into a role of CONSUMERS (product for advertisers?) instead of artists and creators. We don't even know WHO TPC is, anymore. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 12 13:02:21 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 19:02:21 +0000 Subject: DDS/DLT compatibility levels [was RE: CompacTape/DLT Media] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874C47D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paxton Hoag Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 6:29 PM > If it is a DDS you can find auxillary drives that should read DDS DAT > tapes. Like DLT there are 1 through 4 versions (i.e. DDS or DDS1, > DDS2, etc.), usually backward compatible. >From personal experience: A DDS2 drive will read and write DDS1 or DDS2 tapes. A DDS3 drive will read and write DDS2 or DDS3 tapes, and read DDS1. A DDS4 drive will read and write DDS4 tapes, might read and write DDS3 tapes correctly, and might read DDS2 (maybe). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 12 13:28:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:28:13 -0500 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: <511A6619.6030101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <511A5B8D.3050100@compsys.to> <511A6619.6030101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <511A97CD.5070206@neurotica.com> On 02/12/2013 10:56 AM, ben wrote: > Nah. The same as before, the SUITS still have the power. The average > person has the illusion of personal computing. Very little can be done > with typical computer, all development is still done on BIGGER machines. > The other Ben. Heh. Speak for yourself. If that's the way you've chosen to do YOUR computing, you get what you've got coming. The "average person" can elect to attempt to use a complex tool without learning a damn thing about it...they'll get what they've got coming, too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 12 14:10:08 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:10:08 -0800 Subject: Itch before scratching tape In-Reply-To: <511957BA.80303@otter.se> References: <511957BA.80303@otter.se> Message-ID: <511AA1A0.70100@sydex.com> On 02/11/2013 12:42 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > Wouldn't that be VMS installation tapes for FORTRAN v. 4.5 and v.4.6? It > sounds like what they would be labelled. I'm pretty certain that you're correct, Jonas. However, I'm not a VMS person--my experience with running VAX-en have all been with BSD. To learn VMS at the point for me just to verify the contents of a couple of tapes would be pointless. You'd probably feel the same way if you turned up with a SCOPE 3.1.6 tape. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 12 14:21:12 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 20:21:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Depraz/Digimouse/P4 mouse In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F72673@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> from "Benjamin Huntsman" at Feb 12, 13 06:00:44 am Message-ID: > > Anyone on here have one of these? Yes, or at least something similar (a Depraz mouse) on my Whitechapel MG1 > Anyone manage to get one working on a standard serial port, or have > the pinout? It is not a serial mouse, in fact connecting it to an RS232 port is likely to damage it. It runs on 5V. There are 2 versions. The commonb one has quadrature outputs, on a DE9 plug. The pinout is : 1 +5V 2 Y2 3 Y1 4 X2 5 X1 6 Ground 7 Middle button 8 Right button 9 Left button The other, much less common, versions is serial, but not synchornous serial. The 7 signals (3 buttons, 4 quadratur signasl) are fed ito a 49021 shift register. Only 5 wires are needed, I am not sure what the connector is (DE9 again?). Anyway, the minimal data I ahve suggests : 1 Load (signals into SR) 2 clock 3 +5V 4 Ground 5 Serial data out The host machine provides the clock and load singals, they are inptus ot the mouse, -tony From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Feb 12 19:52:27 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:52:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1360720347.86029.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > A big part of the reason IMO for the excitement in the earlier years of > computing technology was that models were varying and unique, whereas today > they are uniform and ubiquitous. There's not much today that differentiates > computers from the desktop machine on up to super computers except for the > scale. "Back then" computers used a variety of different processors > and had > different models had strong points to them, storage technology was > different, etc. > > Not to say that modern day computing technology isn't impressive. But we > have since at least the last decade or two entered an era of incremental > changes rather than radical ones. > -- Geoffrey Oltmans I feel the guis have also stagnated as there is none-thing radical different between windows, Mac and linux excepted underlying operating system the only system that really worth looking at are the homebrew/clones/single-board-computers system --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Feb 12 20:27:16 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 03:27:16 +0100 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: <1360720347.86029.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360720347.86029.YahooMailNeo@web142506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213022716.GA26918@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 05:52:27PM -0800, Tom Sparks wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > A big part of the reason IMO for the excitement in the earlier years of > > computing technology was that models were varying and unique, whereas today > > they are uniform and ubiquitous. There's not much today that differentiates > > computers from the desktop machine on up to super computers except for the > > scale. "Back then" computers used a variety of different processors > > and had > > different models had strong points to them, storage technology was > > different, etc. > > > > Not to say that modern day computing technology isn't impressive. But we > > have since at least the last decade or two entered an era of incremental > > changes rather than radical ones. > > -- Geoffrey Oltmans > > I feel the guis have also stagnated as there is none-thing radical different between windows, Mac and linux > excepted underlying operating system It doesn't help that *cough* some Linux developers either think they have to copy Windows to appeal to the masses ("the crap you know" approach) or copy Apple because "Apple GUIs are just perfect". Except they are both wrong and annoy the competent. Me, I've been using WindowMaker (inspired by NeXT GUI) for 15+ years now. It works fine, hasn't changed in that time, has a virtual desktop concept that fits my working style _very_ well and is pretty much fully keyboard- controllable. I don't _want_ to experiment with new, shiny GUIs - I want to get work done. But then, I'm one of those crazy buggers who think that X is a really nifty graphical terminal multiplexer - I typically have anything between 20 and 40+ xterms running on my desktops (home and work). > the only system that really worth looking at are the > homebrew/clones/single-board-computers system Funny you should mention those .. I'm currently playing around with a nice _pile_ of ARM boards: Raspberry, OLinuxino, Hackberry, ODroid X2/U2 and two more incoming ;-) It's amazing what you can get these days for surprisingly little money. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Feb 12 06:25:16 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:25:16 +1100 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 12/02/2013, at 8:53 AM, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi Folks, > > I just heard that the Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120 partial kit is being offered as a Kickstarter project: > > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica I would have signed up (as I've wanted one for a long while) but it's US only :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk Tue Feb 12 14:28:21 2013 From: steve at stephenmerrony.co.uk (Steve Merrony) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 20:28:21 +0000 Subject: CompacTape/DLT Media In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B743369E8@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433623B@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B743369E8@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <511AA5E5.1050805@stephenmerrony.co.uk> That looks like it. I might try a 3480 cartridge and see what happens. On 12/02/2013 05:04, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Is this the "ANSI X3.174" tape cartridge maybe? Matches parameters in Fujitsu_America_Computer_Products_Reference_Guide_1990.pdf as in 12000 bpi, 20 tracks, MFM. > > IBM'ers called the 3480 cart, "38K BPI format". The Fujitsu drive I used that did 3480's, was the Fujitsu 2481, which is on the next page of the above referenced Fujitsu 1990 reference guide and they call "37,871 bpi". > From roe at liveblockauctions.com Tue Feb 12 15:36:27 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:36:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: Xxdp device drivers Message-ID: Does anyone have macro-11 source code for _any_ xxdp 2.5 device driver? Dl.sys, anything at all. I want to create a new driver... From adamrubin at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 15:57:43 2013 From: adamrubin at gmail.com (Adam Michael Rubin) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:57:43 -0500 Subject: Grid 2260 Message-ID: Hey there, I have an old GRID 2260 laptop. It's a beauty. It works, loads Windows 3.1.1 for pen computing, but the pen is broken, sadly. I would like to sell this computer. Any leads? Adamrubin at gmail.com From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Feb 12 19:41:58 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 20:41:58 -0500 Subject: Tech:Then & Now Message-ID: This is further to my note on Technology: Then & Now: As F. Chisholm says it?s the ?kitschy lowbrow tastes of the public? in contrast to the sophisticated highbrow tastes of the uber?rich as to who really influences technology development today. It seems the uber-rich are winning. But do we need to be at their mercy or can we ?rebel? through programming (the rise of the Raspberry Pi for instance) or is this just for people in the know as it once was for the hobbyist/experimenter of yesteryear. In our hurried lives, to stay above water, we want the ?simplified? way of using computer technology ? to do what we want, when we want. Whether one is a software or hardware person seems to me to be irrelevant except if you are knowledgeable about technology, i.e., know how it works. I used to know how my Coleco ADAM worked but I don?t know how my Dell Inspiron 15R works. Nor do I really are. It does what I want it to do. Well, most of the time! Is this not what all of us want? Murray-- From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 13 01:55:27 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 23:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) Message-ID: <1360742127.63437.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I think this was used with the 9800-series calculators. http://www.ebay.com/itm/s/181076085394 --Bill From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 13 03:23:28 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:23:28 +0100 Subject: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) Message-ID: <201302130924.r1D9OPne050334@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> Yes, it is for use with 98x0 -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: "William Maddox" Verzonden: ?13-?2-?2013 09:28 Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Onderwerp: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) I think this was used with the 9800-series calculators. http://www.ebay.com/itm/s/181076085394 --Bill From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 13 05:01:15 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:01:15 +0100 Subject: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) In-Reply-To: <201302130924.r1D9OPne050334@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> References: <201302130924.r1D9OPne050334@smtp-vbr6.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <003f01ce09d9$75dc7b20$61957160$@xs4all.nl> What I wanted to say was: It is for use with the HP 98X0 calculators but it has little or no use without the HP 9865A Cassette Interface. Of cause you can use it as a book post or for spare parts for the HP 9830 or HP 9821 tape drive. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: woensdag 13 februari 2013 10:23 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) > > Yes, it is for use with 98x0 > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: "William Maddox" > Verzonden: ?13-?2-?2013 09:28 > Aan: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Onderwerp: Cassette drive for HP 98xx calculator (eBay, currently cheap) > > I think this was used with the 9800-series calculators. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/s/181076085394 > > --Bill From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Feb 13 11:40:38 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:40:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> About a year ago I got a Turbo XT clone (8-ish MHz V20, I think, full memory). It needs a bit of work (HDD, looks like a cap blew on the floppy, monitor needs a new CEE receptacle wired in), but it seems to power up fine. I've been shoveling it around for the past year-plus, and this is the first time I've even turned it on, which gets me wondering whether it's worth keeping or not, especially when virtualized PCs are so easy to do. I have a 386 and Pentium with ISA slots, so that's not a big deal. For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is it just mostly nostalgia? From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Feb 13 12:13:34 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:13:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP-UX 10.20 or less for series 800 Message-ID: <8CFD82CF83EB00F-171C-142C0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> I have an old G70 that's currently running HP-UX 11 (I had 11i v1 on it for a while - bit slow for that, and the patches would break it if you weren't careful). Anyway, I have a workstation for all my HP-UX 11 needs and was kicking around the idea of putting 10.20 or 9.04 on the beast to give it a bit more vintage flair, but all of the CDs I have and have seen have been 10.20 for the 700s. Anyone seen a 10.20 for 800 around? From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Feb 13 12:27:23 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:27:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> I have a 3B2/1000 that I'm trying to resurrect. The main Winchester drive is dead-ish (haven't written it off, but it's doing spinup-click-spindown so there's something big wrong), so I need to label a new drive. 3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best approach. I have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship with DSQD drives. I've found three possible options, but don't know if anyone's used any of them (or one that I haven't come across). (1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to write out the disk using it. Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD- I have a Compaq Deskpro 386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try (2) modify one of the above machine's stock 1.2MB drives to spin at 300RPM. Don't know if it will write out the disk this way, but found mod. instructions here: http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm . May work, may not -I'm not sure how QD and HD head widths compare. (3) Replace the 3B2's 5.25 DSQD drive with a 3.5" drive and use 720K 3.5" disks to load it. Don't know how well 3B2 hardware would like this mod. I do have the proper DSDD media to use, so that's not an issue. I'd probably write the disk out with "dd" on Linux or xBSD if possble, as the network support makes getting the image to the writing machine much easier. Anyone been in this position before? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 12:29:33 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:29:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130213101551.C44110@shell.lmi.net> Murray seems to want to get some discussion of our social structure(s) in the good old days, . . . -------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 12 Feb 2013 03:16:43 -0800 From: Lee Felsenstein Subject: EE380 talk Wednesday 4:15PM - Makers, Hackers and the Personal computer Revolution I will be giving the EE380 colloquium lecture Wednesday (2/13) at 4:15 PM, on the parallels and divergences between the maker movement and the early personal computer industry (when it, too was still a "movement", propelled by passion and not riches). With about 36 hours to put the slides and the outline together it will be interesting to see the results. They will be streamed live and available for replay later - see http://EE380/Stanford.edu . For more shameless self-promotion I offer my new website www.leefelsenstein.com . I really must put up a notice of the 380 event there... Lee Felsenstein http://www.leefelsenstein.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 13 12:30:49 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:30:49 -0800 Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think I still have one about like that. Nostalgia, it hasn't been touched in close to 20 years. I actually need to see about setting up a couple VM's for accessing legacy data CD's. I do not want to need to maintain hardware for this purpose! Zane At 12:40 PM -0500 2/13/13, Scott Quinn wrote: >About a year ago I got a Turbo XT clone (8-ish MHz V20, I think, >full memory). It needs a bit of work (HDD, looks like a cap blew on >the floppy, monitor needs a new CEE receptacle wired in), but it >seems to power up fine. > >I've been shoveling it around for the past year-plus, and this is >the first time I've even turned it on, which gets me wondering >whether it's worth keeping or not, especially when virtualized PCs >are so easy to do. I have a 386 and Pentium with ISA slots, so >that's not a big deal. For those with old clones, what do you use >them for, or is it just mostly nostalgia? -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 12:43:07 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <1360780987.79792.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 9:40 AM PST Scott Quinn wrote: >About a year ago I got a Turbo XT clone (8-ish MHz V20, I think, full memory). It needs a bit of work (HDD, looks like a cap blew on the floppy, monitor needs a new CEE receptacle wired in), but it seems to power up fine. > >I've been shoveling it around for the past year-plus, and this is the first time I've even turned it on, which gets me wondering whether it's worth keeping or not, especially when virtualized PCs are so easy to do. I have a 386 and Pentium with ISA slots, so that's not a big deal. For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is it just mostly nostalgia? Could you give more specifics. Date codes, possibly manufacturer? I'm not going to delude myself thinking it could be a rare clone I've been searching for, and that's not even my purpose for asking. Just curious how old it is. In my stash for instance I have a rebadged AMT ATjr (they kept it in the rom screen, but IBM forced them to change the name to AMTjr). Yes it's mostly about sentiment I'm sure. Chances are there's some kid or whoever who'd be happy to have it. Or a community college. I doubt there are still any 16 bit assembler courses being taught anywhere on planet earth, but it wasn't too long ago there was. But then again perhaps the skills are still necessary to keep those quasi mythical ten billion 80186 embedded apps running. From nekonoko at mac.com Wed Feb 13 12:58:04 2013 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 10:58:04 -0800 Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0395C05A-19D3-419B-A299-DDA48D223139@mac.com> On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is it just mostly nostalgia? I keep one for writing out disk images to 8" drives. Pete From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 13 13:01:03 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:01:03 -0800 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <511BE2EF.6010807@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 10:27 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > I have a 3B2/1000 that I'm trying to resurrect. The main Winchester > drive is dead-ish (haven't written it off, but it's doing > spinup-click-spindown so there's something big wrong), so I need to > label a new drive. > > 3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best > approach. I have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs > usually don't ship with DSQD drives. I've found three possible > options, but don't know if anyone's used any of them (or one that I > haven't come across). > > (1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to write out the disk > using it. Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD- I > have a Compaq Deskpro 386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try > > (2) modify one of the above machine's stock 1.2MB drives to spin at > 300RPM. Don't know if it will write out the disk this way, but found > mod. instructions here: http://www.oldskool.org/disk2fdi/525HDMOD.htm > . May work, may not -I'm not sure how QD and HD head widths compare. > > (3) Replace the 3B2's 5.25 DSQD drive with a 3.5" drive and use 720K > 3.5" disks to load it. Don't know how well 3B2 hardware would like > this mod. > > I do have the proper DSDD media to use, so that's not an issue. I'd > probably write the disk out with "dd" on Linux or xBSD if possble, as > the network support makes getting the image to the writing machine > much easier. > > Anyone been in this position before? What are you using for imaging software? Most should work with a plain old unmodified "1.2M" drive in a PC AT or better (the controller uses a 300KHz data clock instead of a 250KHz one when handling DD floppies). Most imaging software is aware of this and adjusts accordingly. It's true that if the software uses the BIOS, the drive will double-step, but that's not true if the software uses its own floppy code. You're making the job too difficult for yourself, I think. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 13 13:05:58 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:05:58 -0800 Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <511BE416.7030405@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 09:40 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > About a year ago I got a Turbo XT clone (8-ish MHz V20, I think, full > memory). It needs a bit of work (HDD, looks like a cap blew on the > floppy, monitor needs a new CEE receptacle wired in), but it seems to > power up fine. > > I've been shoveling it around for the past year-plus, and this is the > first time I've even turned it on, which gets me wondering whether > it's worth keeping or not, especially when virtualized PCs are so > easy to do. I have a 386 and Pentium with ISA slots, so that's not a > big deal. For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is > it just mostly nostalgia? Old hardware devices with drivers that were written during the days of the PC XT. For example, I've got a Match Point PC disk card that needs the slower CPU. So I keep a couple of the boxes around and they get trotted out every so often. They both have VGA cards however--no way I'm going to haul out an old monochrome or CGA monitor as well. Both have NICs and are equipped with networking software, so file transfer isn't a big deal. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 13:18:40 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:18:40 -0800 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <511BE710.2060800@gmail.com> On 2/13/2013 10:27 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > (1) Mount the 3B2's DSQD floppy in a PC and try to write out the disk using it. Don't know if the PC's disk controller supports DSQD- I have a Compaq Deskpro 386/25 and a whitebox Pentium that I can try > > Anyone been in this position before? That's what I ended up doing to make floppies for a 3B2 before. I think I just set it as 720k floppy in bios and it just worked. I imagine you probably need to change the drive ID on the floppy too. I never had any luck making bootable floppies on any other drives. It was a pain to take that floppy in and out of the 3B2/1000 too. From doc at vaxen.net Wed Feb 13 13:39:42 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:39:42 -0600 Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other parts on the board have 1977 date codes. I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... Doc From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 13:44:52 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:44:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <1360784692.42187.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:58 AM PST Pete Plank wrote: > >On Feb 13, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > >> For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is it just mostly nostalgia? > >I keep one for writing out disk images to 8" drives. > >Pete You feel it's necessary to have an 8088 to do this? Can you tell us which specific components you use. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Feb 13 13:52:11 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:52:11 -0600 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> What is the PN on the board? Is there any brand visible? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:40 PM To: CCtalk Subject: NEC D765D Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other parts on the board have 1977 date codes. I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... Doc ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 13:54:07 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360785247.33826.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'll give you a dollar for it. seriously From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 14:26:55 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:26:55 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:39 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? > > It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other parts on the board have 1977 date codes. > > I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... I certainly can't imagine much else a ?PD765 would be used for. No idea about the value, though. - Dave From nekonoko at mac.com Wed Feb 13 14:27:19 2013 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 12:27:19 -0800 Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <1360784692.42187.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360784692.42187.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2721F54D-1A47-4417-AB25-8DD3EF33D3D0@mac.com> On Feb 13, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > You feel it's necessary to have an 8088 to do this? Can you tell us which specific components you use. It has a controller that supports the SD formats I needed, but I don't recall the specifics. The machine is currently in storage but I do plan on setting it up again soon. Pete From doc at vaxen.net Wed Feb 13 14:58:52 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:58:52 -0600 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> Message-ID: <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> On 2/13/13 1:52 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > What is the PN on the board? Is there any brand visible? There are a couple of numbers on it, both on the off-side of the board: B-4468208-01 in the solder mask on the bulkhead end EC 869247A silk-screened on the other end The edge connector, 62 pins, is oriented and positioned like an ISA card, but the tail of the board drops *lower* than the fingers. Doc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:40 PM > To: CCtalk > Subject: NEC D765D > > Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? > > It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other > parts on the board have 1977 date codes. > > I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. > I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... > > > Doc > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 15:11:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 13:11:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20130213121525.L45876@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Scott Quinn wrote: > 3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best approach. I > have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship > with DSQD drives. I've found three possible options, but don't know if > anyone's used any of them (or one that I haven't come across). You should be OK. Depends on what you mean by "DSQD". "THERE AIN'T NO SECH ANIMAL." DO you mean DSDD with 96TPI? (aka "720K" (which could easily be from 640K to 800K) Ignorant marketing people (not NECESSARILY suits) created a ridiculous technically bogus name for that of "quad density" OR DID YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE by "DSQD"? If "720K", most "1.2M" drives can handle that. You need to switch the speed to 300RPM OR switch the data transfer rate of the controller to 300K, (just like what is done for reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive) AND not let it double step (when reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive, every other track of the 96TPI is used to get the needed 48TPI) OR connect a "720K" drive to the PC. cable it, and jumper DS, etc exactly the same as the 360K version of that drive. Teac 55FG is an excellent drive that is designed for both "720K" AND "1.2M" (F is their "720K" model, G is their "1.2M" model) If you are NOT using a PC, but instead, some newer device, such as an AT, you can tell the CMOS that it is 720K 3.5" OR tell it is "360K" (for pre-3.5" ATs) On a PC or XT (5150, 5160), the hardware doesn't know the difference between a "360K" drive and a "720K" drive. (Although MS-DOS, to select WHICH MS-DOS format it expects, wants DRIVER.SYS or DRIVPARM) THE BEST reason for keeping a 5160! OR use a "720K" 3.5" in the 3B2 no idea about special jumpering, etc. ("1.4M" would actually probably work, but further compound jumpering issues due to density select) NOTE: the commonly used format is 1.406M (80 * 2 * 9 * 512), and you CAN NOT GET 1.44M unless you REALLY create a bizarre UNIQUE format, OR misdefine a megabyte to be 2^10 * 10^3 (which nobody outside of marketing would knowingly do!) NOTE: I am forced to refer to drive types by their grossly inaccurate popular names, since otherwise I need an entire line of text to identify the drive and format type, "Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at 300RPM with a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate" or would need to use the nonstandardized IBM drive type names of "type 0", "type 1", "type 2", "type 7", etc. Isn't "720K" understandable and simpler? USUALLY, when people say "quad density", they are referring to DSDD with 96TPI. BUT NOT ALWAYS. THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY SUCH THING AS "QUAD DENSITY". For example, when Superbrain (Intertec) went to DOUBLE SIDED on their DOUBLE DENSITY disks, (doubling the capacity from ~180K to ~360K), (which the entire civilized world called "DOUBLE DENSITY"), they called THAT "Quad Density" ("QD")! When Superbrain (Intertec) went to 80 tracks (96tpi V 48tpi) on THEIR "QUAD DENSITY" (increasing the capacity from ~360K to ~720K, which MARKETING of most other companies called "quad density"), they had to follow the lead of olive size names, and called them "SUPER DENSITY"!! They abbreviated THAT "SD", which everybody in the civilized world knows to be "single density". From sales at elecplus.com Wed Feb 13 15:35:49 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:35:49 -0600 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <012901ce0a32$1760de70$46229b50$@com> I have seen plenty of 8-bit and 16-bit floppy controllers where the end drops lower than the connectors, especially if the card is very long; it supports the card in the case or the motherboard. Usually there is a brand of some sort. Sorry, I can't identify it by the numbers you gave. Maybe if you could post a pic somewhere of the front and back? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NEC D765D On 2/13/13 1:52 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > What is the PN on the board? Is there any brand visible? There are a couple of numbers on it, both on the off-side of the board: B-4468208-01 in the solder mask on the bulkhead end EC 869247A silk-screened on the other end The edge connector, 62 pins, is oriented and positioned like an ISA card, but the tail of the board drops *lower* than the fingers. Doc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:40 PM > To: CCtalk > Subject: NEC D765D > > Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? > > It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other > parts on the board have 1977 date codes. > > I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. > I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... > > > Doc > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 13 15:56:20 2013 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:56:20 +0000 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 or less for series 800 In-Reply-To: <8CFD82CF83EB00F-171C-142C0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFD82CF83EB00F-171C-142C0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874CDDD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Scott Quinn Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 10:14 AM > I have an old G70 that's currently running HP-UX 11 (I had 11i v1 on > it for a while - bit slow for that, and the patches would break it if > you weren't careful). Anyway, I have a workstation for all my HP-UX 11 > needs and was kicking around the idea of putting 10.20 or 9.04 on the > beast to give it a bit more vintage flair, but all of the CDs I have > and have seen have been 10.20 for the 700s. Anyone seen a 10.20 for > 800 around? I have 10.20 in my personal collection, as well as 9.. These are for my 817S, which was given to me as a go-away gift by a PPoE. I haven't had the time to set it up since (going on 10 years now). I don't want to give or sell the media, but if there's an easy way to dup it (I don't know whether it's readable by Windows or a Unix clone), I'm happy to send you an ISO or a CD. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 16:19:02 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:19:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360793942.13665.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ironically I just shipped an NEC 8001a disk drive cabinet to Austria. it also had a ceramic 765 and the most unique door mechanisms I've seen with manual lock buttons. I didn't dismantle to the point that I could say for sure who the manufacturer of the drives were but the visible vertical shaft motors said Teac 18261 on it. Anyone know any more about them than I do or have tech manuals? Oh I got 15$ after shipping but before fees. It cost 100.15$ to ship. My net gain after everything is considered is likely zero or negative. How I love ebay. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 13 16:24:34 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:24:34 -0700 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670 at mx1.ezwind.net>, Steve Lafferty writes: > http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica Funded. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 16:32:54 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I've readily created and reproduced images of Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4" floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk, Teledisk wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with jumpers nor data rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway raeding quads in 1.2 drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything. Not even a pretty please. Don't listen to the Fredster. Quads are alive and well and are the de facto Uber Density. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 13 16:34:00 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:34:00 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> Message-ID: <511C14D8.6020107@verizon.net> On 02/13/2013 02:52 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > What is the PN on the board? Is there any brand visible? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:40 PM > To: CCtalk > Subject: NEC D765D > > Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? Not really. it was NEC made FDC that was later second sourced as 8272. The early parts were released mid 1980. Its a floppy controller chip. > It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other > parts on the board have 1977 date codes. > > I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. > I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... IF it has two bus edge connectors it may have been Intel Multibus. Allison > > Doc > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 16:40:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 14:40:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360795228.84347.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 1:35 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >I have seen plenty of 8-bit and 16-bit floppy controllers where the end >drops lower than the connectors, especially if the card is very long; it >supports the card in the case or the motherboard. Usually there is a brand >of some sort. Sorry, I can't identify it by the numbers you gave. Maybe if >you could post a pic somewhere of the front and back? I know I have. Can't recall off the top what computers used them or if they were just early ISA cards. But remember this seems to be an oldee. Or was it just populated (repopulated?) with old chips? Otherwise what could be that old and mostly look like an ISA card? What bus used 62 pins? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 17:14:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:14:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360797268.44253.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the masks were also leased to Rockwell who's house number was 6765 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 17:20:16 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:20:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <1360797616.82990.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 12:27 PM PST Pete Plank wrote: >It has a controller that supports the SD formats I needed, but I don't recall the specifics. The machine is currently in storage but I do plan on setting it up again soon. > >Pete Please keep us posted. Details like that are invaluable. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 17:28:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:28:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360798133.44967.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> and Scott more often then not DD media will format fine as "quads". They may not last as long as 96tpi media, depending on the quality. I'm going to guess a 720k or 1.44meg drive won't work but it's not impossible. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Feb 13 17:29:57 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 00:29:57 +0100 Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I shall ask you about this matter, Chris. I need to grab some disks for one Altos 586 and one ATT 3b1. Sergio. 2013/2/13 Chris Tofu > > I've readily created and reproduced images of Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4" > floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk, Teledisk > wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with jumpers nor data > rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway raeding quads in 1.2 > drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything. Not even a pretty > please. > Don't listen to the Fredster. Quads are alive and well and are the de > facto Uber Density. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 17:36:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:36:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing - then & now Message-ID: <1360798599.53327.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 2:45 PM PST Murray McCullough wrote: >Back in the early years of mass-computerism you had to be a >hobbyist/experimenter with good soldering skills to make computers do >what you wanted them to do. Today they do it without your input and/or >knowledge. Is that not scary? Were there prognosticators who predicted >what would be now, 35-40 yrs. on? Vintage/classic computing were the >safer years, maybe not as exciting! Maybe part of the answer is not to >be connected but we would lose out on participating in this forum and >so much more. > >Murray-- Stick with open source, basic builds. From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 16:29:50 2013 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:29:50 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <012901ce0a32$1760de70$46229b50$@com> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> <012901ce0a32$1760de70$46229b50$@com> Message-ID: I would be interested in a ceramic uPD765 for decapsulation purposes. --Dave On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have seen plenty of 8-bit and 16-bit floppy controllers where the end > drops lower than the connectors, especially if the card is very long; it > supports the card in the case or the motherboard. Usually there is a brand > of some sort. Sorry, I can't identify it by the numbers you gave. Maybe if > you could post a pic somewhere of the front and back? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Doc Shipley > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 2:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: NEC D765D > > On 2/13/13 1:52 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> What is the PN on the board? Is there any brand visible? > > There are a couple of numbers on it, both on the off-side of the board: > > B-4468208-01 in the solder mask on the bulkhead end > > EC 869247A silk-screened on the other end > > The edge connector, 62 pins, is oriented and positioned like an ISA card, > but the tail of the board drops *lower* than the fingers. > > > Doc > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Doc Shipley >> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2013 1:40 PM >> To: CCtalk >> Subject: NEC D765D >> >> Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? >> >> It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other >> parts on the board have 1977 date codes. >> >> I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs > to. >> I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... >> >> >> Doc >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 >> > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6099 - Release Date: 02/12/13 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 17:49:39 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:49:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213154419.O53730@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, C:\Derp wrote: > I've readily created and reproduced images of Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4" > floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk, > Teledisk wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with > jumpers nor data rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway > raeding quads in 1.2 drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything. > Not even a pretty please. > Don't listen to the Fredster. Quads are alive and well and are the de > facto Uber Density. For those who are literate, I clearly stated that MOST "1.2M" drives can do "720K" formats, once the drive select and cabling issues of installation are done, and after somebody COMPETENT writes software that switches speed or data transfer rate to the correct values (which they will often DEFAULT to, and prevents software from double-stepping. Any problems that occur are installation issues, and/or the result of running software that does stuff that you do not want. However, calling them "quad" is a completely clear determination of incompetence. There are no "FREDSTER"s here. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 17:54:09 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360798133.44967.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360798133.44967.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213155034.K53730@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > and Scott more often then not DD media will format fine as "quads". They > may not last as long as 96tpi media, depending on the quality. correct! It is exactly the same issues as using SS media for DS. It's there; it's the same; but it has not been tested for that use. > I'm going to guess a 720k or 1.44meg drive won't work but it's not > impossible. 720K BETTER work. 720K 3.5" was developed EXPLICITLY to serve as a replacement for 720K 5.25" It is INTENDED to work. Although there is an assumption that you are competent to set the drive select and other jumpers for installation. 1.44M will usually work, but adds an unnecessary additional variable. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 17:58:37 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:58:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <0395C05A-19D3-419B-A299-DDA48D223139@mac.com> References: <8CFD8285E61A07D-171C-13265@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> <0395C05A-19D3-419B-A299-DDA48D223139@mac.com> Message-ID: <20130213155651.W53730@shell.lmi.net> Good for holding a door open, particularly if the underside of the door has too little, or too much, clearance to use a ZX80 wedge. Always easier to manipulate the hardware for reading alien disks (I've done a few). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 13 18:01:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:01:10 -0800 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <511C2946.3090206@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 12:26 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 13, 2013, at 2:39 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Is a ceramic NEC D765D worth anything? >> >> It's soldered on an adapter board for a bus I don't recognize. Other parts on the board have 1977 date codes. >> >> I pulled it out of a recycle bin, so I have no clue what it belongs to. I assume it's a floppy controller, seeing as it has two 34-pin headers... > > I certainly can't imagine much else a ?PD765 would be used for. > > No idea about the value, though. Maybe to a collector. This is the NEC chip with the long "blind spot" after the index, so it's sort of limited in utility. The 765AD would have the modern timing. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 18:10:29 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:10:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360800629.72011.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> See, the faithful are already gathering to pay homage to the Quad. God save the Quad! Sergio, I'd help in any way I can, but basically I've already said everything I know. But if you need a few specifics about setting up an imaging box, I might be able to help a bit with that. Mainly you need a cable with a twist behind the end connector, use a hd 3.5" drive at the end as A:, a 5 1/4" drive as B:, setup your bios accordingly and you should be good to go. That's the setup that's proved successful for me. >I shall ask you about this matter, Chris. I need to grab some disks for one >Altos 586 and one ATT 3b1. > >Sergio. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 18:21:36 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:21:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: adorable and cute Android tricks Message-ID: <1360801296.25746.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Shouldn't they all be sent to Gehenna? How do you expect to maximize battery life with all these wonderful sweet theatrics? I do love my new phone and tablet. But I'm thinking of taking a chop saw to both to extract all the gizmos. Any A* coders? I figure the Wrox book is my best bet. There's a much older one that deals specifically with A* architecture, and looks very good for generic knowledge (has a Pict or something on the cover), but is very old. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 18:24:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:24:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <1360784692.42187.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360784692.42187.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213161509.F54303@shell.lmi.net> > >> For those with old clones, what do you use them for, or is it just > >> mostly nostalgia? > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:58 AM PST Pete Plank wrote: > >I keep one for writing out disk images to 8" drives. On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > You feel it's necessary to have an 8088 to do this? Can you tell us > which specific components you use. [Thank yuou for bottom posting. It shows a willingness and ability to think and adapt to the ettiquettes of others] I'm not Pete, but, . . . the 8088 is not the necessary part. BUT, it IS more convenient to NOT have the CMOS to be set (you can try setting it as "1.2M", which will work for most, but not all, of the things that you would want to use an 8" for, OR you can use MORE software to talk more directly to the hardware. The earlier (pre-AT) BIOS simply reduces slightly the amount of stuff that you have to get out of your way to deal with the drive. There is very little that the 5160 can do that the 5170 CAN'T do, but the 5160 has less crap in the way. Sometimes there are absurd artificial and arbitrary limitations. For example, the controller for the Cordata (Corona Data Systems) laser printer comes with software that checks processor and REFUSES to run with 80286. The stock 5160 supports 4 floppy drives. (two internal, two on DC37) The stock 5170 supports 2 floppy drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 18:28:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:28:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Despite my illiteracy I was SIMPLY STATING that I've readily worked with quads w/o having to fiddle with anything. What are we supposed to call them if not quads??? Clearly it's not about density when even I stated DD disks seem to always work. It's about a format that is unusual yet common enough to warrant a separate designation. ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 3:49 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, C:\Derp wrote: >> I've readily created and reproduced images of Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4" >> floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk, >> Teledisk wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with >> jumpers nor data rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway >> raeding quads in 1.2 drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything. >> Not even a pretty please. >> Don't listen to the Fredster. Quads are alive and well and are the de >> facto Uber Density. > >For those who are literate, I clearly stated that MOST "1.2M" drives can >do "720K" formats, once the drive select and cabling issues of >installation are done, and after somebody COMPETENT writes software that >switches speed or data transfer rate to the correct values (which they >will often DEFAULT to, and prevents software from double-stepping. >Any problems that occur are installation issues, and/or the result of >running software that does stuff that you do not want. > >However, calling them "quad" is a completely clear determination of >incompetence. > >There are no "FREDSTER"s here. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 18:28:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:28:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20130213162518.O54303@shell.lmi.net> [floppy] On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: > I certainly can't imagine much else a ?PD765 would be used for. not really anything, since that is what it is, but perhaps in a dedicated controller for a tape drive that was originally intended to connect to a floppy port? (STILL floppy controller, but sometimes not also usable for real floppy drives) > No idea about the value, though. zilch. doubtful that that one can do MFM 128 byte sectors, etc. Allison would surely know all of the details about it! But, it should fetch plenty on eBay as R at RE From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 18:30:50 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:30:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <00ef01ce0a23$9d3d5aa0$d7b80fe0$@com> <511BFE8C.3050707@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20130213162940.R54303@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Doc Shipley wrote: > The edge connector, 62 pins, is oriented and positioned like an ISA > card, but the tail of the board drops *lower* than the fingers. an FDC for a machine that has ISA on an extender or right angly adapter? Does the pinout resemble ISA? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 18:39:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:39:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360802364.45005.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 3:54 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> and Scott more often then not DD media will format fine as "quads". They >> may not last as long as 96tpi media, depending on the quality. >correct! >It is exactly the same issues as using SS media for DS. >It's there; it's the same; but it has not been tested for that use. > >> I'm going to guess a 720k or 1.44meg drive won't work but it's not >> impossible. > >720K BETTER work. >720K 3.5" was developed EXPLICITLY to serve as a replacement for 720K >5.25" It is INTENDED to work. Although there is an assumption that you >are competent to set the drive select and other jumpers for installation. This is assuming all 720k 5 1/4" drives are interchangeable. There are relatively few of those out there, but being there are any number of 360k drives that are not interchangeable, I have my doubts. It may be that controllers are finicky but that's the whole point really. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Feb 13 18:45:12 2013 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:45:12 -0800 Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap In-Reply-To: <20130213155651.W53730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: If anyone wants to make some money and is in the Portland (OR) area, this just popped up on craigslist: http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/sys/3578863734.html They're asking $150.00 includes KB and mouse If I was in town, I'de be tempted. Jim. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 18:58:42 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360803522.54970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I also have a bag full of the card edge to header converters. 1$ + shipping. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 19:27:02 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360785247.33826.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360785247.33826.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213172013.I54677@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'll give you a dollar for it. seriously Take it. seriously It is not as useful for actual use as the current ones, BUT, it is historically significant, and is handy whenever you are writing software for others and public to use, since it has many problems that later ones solved. You'll find that that chip will have difficulty reading the first sector on TRS80 disks, Cromemco disk, and maybe even SOME Kaypro disks. OTOH, if it works with that chip, then it will probably work with everything! When writing XenoCopy, I started off by testing everything on real IBM PC. But, after giving a copy to John Dvorak, and having it not work on his after-market POS, I started testing on every BIOS and every FDC that I could. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 19:57:55 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:57:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Despite my illiteracy I was SIMPLY STATING that I've readily worked > with quads w/o having to fiddle with anything. > What are we supposed to call them if not quads??? Clearly it's not > about density when even I stated DD disks seem to always work. It's > about a format that is unusual yet common enough to warrant a separate > designation. The reason why DD disks work is because it IS DD! "quad" is exactly the same on each track as DD, just putting another identical track in between each of the existing tracks. Although rare, some people HAVE had difficulties using some DD disks with "quad"! Although they usually work, and OUGHT TO work, they aren't tested for putting those extra tracks on them. Nevertheless, you have a Good point! There IS NO correct name! There IS NO correct name! There IS NO correct name! 1) "Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at 300RPM with a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate" is correct, but more than a little too unwieldy. "Type 2" is ridiculous IBM/Microsoft specific and arbitrary. likewise, type 0, type 1, type 7 How many people (besides Chuck) know the type number (used in DRIVER.SYS and DRIVPARM) for 2.8M, 8"SD, 8"DD disks? (#9, #3, and #4. Now you know them, too) "quad" is using words misdefined by marketing, and is comparable to referring to CP/M, or other 16 bit memory bus, as supporting 65.5K of RAM. Which the exact same marketing people who created the name "quad" DID! It just screams cluelessness to fall for and embrace that level of BS hype. In term of ambiguity, "quad" also has to suffer the misdefinitions perpetrated by Superbrain (Intertec) marketing, who called 40 track DSDD "quad" simply because it was twice the capacity of their 40 track SSDD! "5.25 720K" works as an unambiguous name, although people with too many nits (google what THOSE are!) will point out that it could easily be anywhere between 640K and 800K, and in some weird cases, even higher or lower. similarly, "360K", "1.2M", "1.4M" ARE recognized, even if their IBM/Microsoft origins are offensive. Although some, such as NEC, did strange things! They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of 300RPM), so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25", and 3.5"! Try reading a Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other machine! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 20:43:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:43:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360802364.45005.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360802364.45005.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213175838.D54677@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > This is assuming all 720k 5 1/4" drives are interchangeable. There are > relatively few of those out there, but being there are any number of > 360k drives that are not interchangeable, I have my doubts. It may be > that controllers are finicky but that's the whole point really. The interchangeability of 720K is SLIGHTLY better than that between 360K! They each have a standard, and many deviations from that standard. There are few, if any, 360K drives that can not be interchanged by trivial CONFIGURATION work, such as drive select, jumpering or cutting or adding a jumper wire to control such things as ready/disk=change, head load (on motor on, drive select, always loaded, etc) NOTE: we are NOT talking about SS V DS, 35track (SA400) V 40 Track (everything that evolved FROM the SA400), 100 TPI, drives that are so slow that they have forced Microsoft to modify DOS (Qume 142), or many horrendously deliberately non-standard MODIFIED drives. "Industry Standard" does NOT actually mean that you can drop another drive in, sometimes you need to put in some dues and configure it. Those are configuration/installation issues, and can and should influence your choice of drive, but hardly qualify as "not interchangeable"! The first time that I put an early Teac drive into a 5150, I had to deal with the head-load solenoid. Putting a DS drive (SA350) into a Gavilan required finding one on which the [SA300] bezel would fit. "That drive won't interchange" "Don't be a wimp; just do it." First time that I connected an 8" drive, it took a while. But, with REASONABLE effort, it is "interchangeable" First time that I put a "720K 5.25" drive into a 5150, I did not KNOW that it was not a "360K" until I started examining tracks to figure out why the disks that it formatted wouldn't work in a "360K". OB_ AutoAnalogy: VW air-cooled engines are "interchangeable". BUT, if I want to put a 1969 engine into a 1958 bus, I need to replace the 12V generator and coil with 6V ones, and replace the 130 tooth flywheel with a 109 tooth one. And if I want to use a 1969 SQUAREBACK engine in that 1958 (BTDT!), I have more stuff to attend to. If you don't understand how to change and set Drive Select, or can believe "it is not possible to change the drive select on that drive", then never go with a different brand than you have, or hire expertise. If you DO know, then all of the rest is just more of the same, and can be a lot of fun learning. In general, the easiest "720K" drives to configure are the ones that are part of the same series as a "360K", such as Tandon TM100-4, SA455, 55F Until you get your confidence, start with those. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 20:45:59 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:45:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <1360809959.36562.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >[Thank yuou for bottom posting. It shows a willingness and ability to >think and adapt to the ettiquettes of others] For the 9 years or whatever I've been on the list I've top posted probably 90+ percent of the time. Because it makes more sense. And I trim more then most people. So I don't understand why you see this as a blessed event. Don't know how I earned a reputation. >The stock 5160 supports 4 floppy drives. (two internal, two on DC37) >The stock 5170 supports 2 floppy drives. But you need a different controller on 5150/5160 to drive an 8" drive, except maybe a ss drive? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 20:50:25 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:50:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap Message-ID: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Do 128k Macs go for big bucks? Guess I've been out of the loop. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 20:54:25 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 18:54:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360810465.27937.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 5:27 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >But, after giving a copy to John Dvorak, and having it not work on his >after-market POS, I started testing on every BIOS and every FDC that I >could. Point Of Sale like an NCR? Never mind. Do you remember what he was using? From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 13 21:09:56 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:09:56 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <20130213172013.I54677@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360785247.33826.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213172013.I54677@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511C5584.1010807@verizon.net> On 02/13/2013 08:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I'll give you a dollar for it. seriously > Take it. seriously > > It is not as useful for actual use as the current ones, BUT, it is > historically significant, and is handy whenever you are writing software > for others and public to use, since it has many problems that later ones > solved. Correct it was the early version as in 765, not 765A, the big fix was shorter VFO sync time. I have some of those not much use for them as I also have the 765A part. Allison > You'll find that that chip will have difficulty reading the first sector > on TRS80 disks, Cromemco disk, and maybe even SOME Kaypro disks. > OTOH, if it works with that chip, then it will probably work with > everything! > > When writing XenoCopy, I started off by testing everything on real IBM PC. > But, after giving a copy to John Dvorak, and having it not work on his > after-market POS, I started testing on every BIOS and every FDC that I > could. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 13 21:12:02 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:12:02 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <20130213162518.O54303@shell.lmi.net> References: <511BEBFE.7030305@vaxen.net> <20130213162518.O54303@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511C5602.9060305@verizon.net> On 02/13/2013 07:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > [floppy] > On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: >> I certainly can't imagine much else a ?PD765 would be used for. > not really anything, since that is what it is, but perhaps in a > dedicated controller for a tape drive that was originally intended > to connect to a floppy port? > (STILL floppy controller, but sometimes not also usable for real > floppy drives) It was the first version in ceramic. Hardly rare. >> No idea about the value, though. > zilch. doubtful that that one can do MFM 128 byte sectors, etc. > Allison would surely know all of the details about it! FM yes, MFM no. > But, it should fetch plenty on eBay as R at RE Barnum was right. Allison > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 13 21:13:45 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 19:13:45 -0800 Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511C5669.7020003@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 05:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The reason why DD disks work is because it IS DD! > "quad" is exactly the same on each track as DD, > just putting another identical track in between > each of the existing tracks. An inspection of a random bunch of old floppies shows that labeling varied between manufacturers such as "35/40 track vs. 70/80 track", "48 tpi vs. 96 tpi", etc. Oddly, manufacturers seemed to be silent on the subject of 100 tpi drives, but 3M went to silly lengths, even specifying the recording mode. For example, a 3M 744-0 floppy is labeled "48 TPI, Double-sided, Single-density". (that particular sample has 100 tpi GCR data on 77 tracks). > Although some, such as NEC, did strange things! > They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of 300RPM), > so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25", > and 3.5"! That makes perfect sense--it's the rest of the world that's strange. There are high-density 5.25" drives made by Matsushita and a few others that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform. Some PC98 drive interfaces require "disk-changed", "ready", and "in-use" signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use" allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives. > Try reading a Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other machine! I can do it with my Catweasel-equipped machine.,, --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 21:24:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 19:24:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <1360809959.36562.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360809959.36562.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213190620.R54677@shell.lmi.net> > >The stock 5160 supports 4 floppy drives. (two internal, two on DC37) > >The stock 5170 supports 2 floppy drives. On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > But you need a different controller on 5150/5160 to drive an 8" drive, > except maybe a ss drive? SS/DS makes no difference. The 5150/5160 controller and ALL other PCs ALL support side select. SD(FM)/DD(MFM) DOES make a difference. The stock 5150/5160 controller is hardwired DD(MFM). It takes a little work to modify the board to un-hardwire to make that switchable. OTOH, some later controller chips, such as the 37C65 variant of the 765 do that SD(FM)/DD(MFM switch in software! Those are worth seeking out. The stock 5150/5160 can handle the data transfer rate (250K) for 8" SD, but not the data transfer rate (500K) needed for 8"DD. Consider a 5170 style controller (and therefore 5170 machine), OR MAYNARD for 5150/5160, OR JDRIVE, OR VISTA, or other afternarket controller for your 8" needs! BUT, 8"SSSD CAN be done with a slightly modified 5150/5160 controller. The early 8" controllers from Flagstaff Engineering were 5150/5160 stock controllers that they did some cutting and jumpering to. Doctor Marty (Martin Goodman, MD of Coc fame) reverse engineered the Flagstaff mods! Before one of the rushed moves, I had a boxfull of them. I think that that might have been in the stuff that Sellam picked up from my office. To reiterate, if you want to do lots of 8" OR HD 3.5", you are better off with 5170. But the 5150/5160 is pleasant and easier to work with for anything DD, including what you call "quad". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jelynch at stny.rr.com Wed Feb 13 22:04:02 2013 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:04:02 -0500 Subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213121525.L45876@shell.lmi.net> References: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> <20130213121525.L45876@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I changed the software controller parameter on my Zenith Z-100 to get 96 TPI on the 5.25 inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin metal shield on top of drive because of interference from monitor. Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P Asteroid 2012 DA14 Earth Flyby on Feb 15, 2013. I will come close but will not hit the earth. See video information at: http://www.nasa.gov/topics/solarsystem/features/asteroidflyby.html On Feb 13, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Scott Quinn wrote: >> 3B2s are DSQD floppies, and I'm trying to figure out my best approach. I >> have the utility software in a disk image, but PCs usually don't ship >> with DSQD drives. I've found three possible options, but don't know if >> anyone's used any of them (or one that I haven't come across). > > You should be OK. > > Depends on what you mean by "DSQD". > "THERE AIN'T NO SECH ANIMAL." > DO you mean DSDD with 96TPI? (aka "720K" (which could easily be from 640K > to 800K) Ignorant marketing people (not NECESSARILY suits) created a > ridiculous technically bogus name for that of "quad density" > OR DID YOU MEAN SOMETHING ELSE by "DSQD"? > > If "720K", most "1.2M" drives can handle that. You need to switch the > speed to 300RPM OR switch the data transfer rate of the controller to 300K, > (just like what is done for reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive) > AND > not let it double step (when reading "360K" disks in a "1.2M" drive, every > other track of the 96TPI is used to get the needed 48TPI) > > OR > > connect a "720K" drive to the PC. > cable it, and jumper DS, etc exactly the same as the 360K version of > that drive. > Teac 55FG is an excellent drive that is designed for both "720K" AND > "1.2M" (F is their "720K" model, G is their "1.2M" model) > If you are NOT using a PC, but instead, some newer device, such as an AT, > you can tell the CMOS that it is 720K 3.5" OR tell it is "360K" (for > pre-3.5" ATs) > On a PC or XT (5150, 5160), the hardware doesn't know the difference > between a "360K" drive and a "720K" drive. (Although MS-DOS, to select > WHICH MS-DOS format it expects, wants DRIVER.SYS or DRIVPARM) > THE BEST reason for keeping a 5160! > > OR > > use a "720K" 3.5" in the 3B2 > no idea about special jumpering, etc. > ("1.4M" would actually probably work, but further compound jumpering > issues due to density select) > NOTE: the commonly used format is 1.406M (80 * 2 * 9 * 512), and you > CAN NOT GET 1.44M unless you REALLY create a bizarre UNIQUE format, > OR misdefine a megabyte to be 2^10 * 10^3 (which nobody outside of > marketing would knowingly do!) > > > NOTE: I am forced to refer to drive types by their grossly inaccurate > popular names, since otherwise I need an entire line of text to identify > the drive and format type, > "Industry standard 5.25" 96 track per inch using MFM, at 300RPM with > a 250K data transfer rate, or at 360RPM with a 300K data transfer rate" > or would need to use the nonstandardized IBM drive type > names of "type 0", "type 1", "type 2", "type 7", etc. > Isn't "720K" understandable and simpler? > > > USUALLY, when people say "quad density", they are referring to DSDD with > 96TPI. > BUT NOT ALWAYS. THERE REALLY ISN'T ANY SUCH THING AS "QUAD DENSITY". > For example, when Superbrain (Intertec) went to DOUBLE SIDED on their > DOUBLE DENSITY disks, (doubling the capacity from ~180K to ~360K), > (which the entire civilized world called "DOUBLE DENSITY"), > they called THAT "Quad Density" ("QD")! > When Superbrain (Intertec) went to 80 tracks (96tpi V 48tpi) on THEIR > "QUAD DENSITY" (increasing the capacity from ~360K to ~720K, which > MARKETING of most other companies called "quad density"), they had > to follow the lead of olive size names, and called them "SUPER DENSITY"!! > They abbreviated THAT "SD", which everybody in the civilized world knows > to be "single density". > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 13 22:46:32 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:46:32 -0500 Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap In-Reply-To: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511C6C28.9020603@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/02/13 9:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Do 128k Macs go for big bucks? Guess I've been out of the loop. > I heard they stopped making them. --T From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 22:48:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 20:48:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213155034.K53730@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360798133.44967.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213155034.K53730@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130213204718.W59578@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: > correct! > It is exactly the same issues as using SS media for DS. > It's there; it's the same; but it has not been tested for that use. I need to acknowledge that on 8" diskettes, there are differences in the holes in the jacket. But we were talking about 96TPI DD V 48TPI DD 5.25 From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Feb 13 22:52:42 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 04:52:42 +0000 Subject: Grid 2260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1034825651-1360817559-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-445489436-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Depends where you're located and what you're hoping to get for it. :-) do you collect anything or is this just from your past? -----Original Message----- From: Adam Michael Rubin Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:57:43 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Grid 2260 Hey there, I have an old GRID 2260 laptop. It's a beauty. It works, loads Windows 3.1.1 for pen computing, but the pen is broken, sadly. I would like to sell this computer. Any leads? Adamrubin at gmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 22:56:28 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 20:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap In-Reply-To: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213205516.N59578@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Do 128k Macs go for big bucks? Guess I've been out of the loop. Same here! I remember a thread on this list about the best patterns to stack them when you have a few hundred that you can't get rid of. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 23:03:46 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:03:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360810465.27937.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360810465.27937.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130213205656.U59578@shell.lmi.net> > >But, after giving a copy to John Dvorak, and having it not work on his > >after-market POS, I started testing on every BIOS and every FDC that I > >could. On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Point Of Sale like an NCR? Never mind. Do you remember what he was using? POS as in Piece Of Shit. In "Men In Black", Will Smith referred to the company car as a POS (before he experienced the non-stock mods) I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. "It works on a real IBM PC" carries no weight when a reviewer's machine is buggy. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 23:09:15 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:09:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <511C5669.7020003@sydex.com> References: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> <511C5669.7020003@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130213210431.J59578@shell.lmi.net> > > Although some, such as NEC, did strange things! > > They run their HD ("1.4M") 3.5" drives at 360RPM (instead of 300RPM), > > so that they can get the same ~1.2M format structure on 8", 5.25", > > and 3.5"! On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That makes perfect sense--it's the rest of the world that's strange. WHY did Shugart change the motor speed from 360 RPM to 300RPM? > There are high-density 5.25" drives made by Matsushita and a few others > that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform. The first "1.2M" drive that I got was Mitsubishi, and had a 50 pin connector! I suspected that it was targeted at 8" Only the very earliest of the 475 drives did not support "360K" But, I am not familiar with the various sub-models, and what features those added or lost. > Some PC98 drive interfaces require "disk-changed", "ready", and "in-use" > signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use" > allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of > whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes > sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives. Surely we don't really need 17 grounds, . . . > > Try reading a Victor 9000 (aka Sirius) with ANY other machine! > I can do it with my Catweasel-equipped machine.,, Great! I am impressed. Can you extract FILES? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 23:13:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:13:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap Message-ID: <1360818808.28523.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 8:46 PM PST Toby Thain wrote: >On 13/02/13 9:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> Do 128k Macs go for big bucks? Guess I've been out of the loop. >> > >I heard they stopped making them. O MY SIDE STOP STOP I heard on good authority they ain't making twinkies no mo either. And then one turns up on this forum. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 23:13:47 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:13:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: References: <8CFD82EE6958C3B-171C-14846@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> <20130213121525.L45876@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130213211200.C59578@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, James Lynch wrote: > I changed the software controller parameter on my Zenith Z-100 to get 96 > TPI on the 5.25 inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin > metal shield on top of drive because of interference from monitor. I had to do that when I mounted a full height floppy drive in the "tuner" space of the TRS80 model 1 monitor. "Mu-metal" I don't see any reason why it would be different for 40 tracks or 80 tracks on the drive. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 13 23:16:29 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:16:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap In-Reply-To: <511C6C28.9020603@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1360810225.96724.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511C6C28.9020603@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20130213211600.Q59578@shell.lmi.net> > > Do 128k Macs go for big bucks? Guess I've been out of the loop. On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, Toby Thain wrote: > I heard they stopped making them. Some of them have signatures inside the case! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 23:20:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:20:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Grid 2260 Message-ID: <1360819215.35876.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It's from his future ding ding. He commissioned evil cyborgs (like when aren't they) to steal it from a museum. Believe it or not it's worth like 12,000,000,000$ then whenever the heck then is. But then again maybe it may only be like a year from now considering what Obama bucks will likely be worth. In any event grab it. Money is no object here. ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 8:52 PM PST Sam O'nella wrote: >Depends where you're located and what you're hoping to get for it. :-) do you collect anything or is this just from your past? > >-----Original Message----- >From: Adam Michael Rubin >Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 16:57:43 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Grid 2260 > > Hey there, I have an old GRID 2260 laptop. It's a beauty. It works, loads >Windows 3.1.1 for pen computing, but the pen is broken, sadly. > > I would like to sell this computer. Any leads? > >Adamrubin at gmail.com > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 23:31:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:31:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap Message-ID: <1360819870.38840.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 8:56 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >I remember a thread on this list about the best patterns to stack them >when you have a few hundred that you can't get rid of You're giving me ideas. Perhaps when I'm settled somewhere I'll build a giant man sized 128k Mac. Then get inside the tube and have everyone believe I got shrunken. But if I want to go real I could always put to use the 19" paper white crts a lister sent me. Like a Mac on steroids. I still love my Macs (and Lisa). Only got a Plus and an SE but I ain't complaining. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 13 23:38:13 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:38:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360820293.25639.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 9:03 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? >Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. O bruther. E-Machines, if even around then, wasn't making no clones. They made Mac video cards and monitors. And I'll have you know my Leading Edge/Sperry Model M runs rings around that Big Pyew. Supports 8" drives even maybe. From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Feb 14 00:00:06 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:00:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies) Message-ID: <8CFD88FAC64EBE6-171C-1FCD0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> I AM UNWORTHY! I have recited the proper names of the D-shells 10 times through as penance. Scrub out That Which Shall Not Be Named Again and insert whatever descriptive term you prefer. Some marketer got to the manuals and put in That Which Shall Not Be Named Again, and the 3B2 is my first introduction to that particular format. I have been instructed in the mysteries and now know the proper terms to use. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 00:22:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:22:15 -0800 Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213210431.J59578@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> <511C5669.7020003@sydex.com> <20130213210431.J59578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511C8297.5020602@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 09:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Great! I am impressed. Can you extract FILES? So far, only on the CP/M-86 disks. I haven't seen any MS-DOS Sirius/Victor ones yet, although I know they existed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 00:27:26 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:27:26 -0800 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <20130213205656.U59578@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360810465.27937.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213205656.U59578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511C83CE.6060508@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 09:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "It works on a real IBM PC" carries no weight when a reviewer's machine > is buggy. Apparently, the Sanyo piece-of-something MBC-550 series machines are now collectors' items. One of the worst PC-compatibles/non-compatibles ever. Used a WD17xx floppy controller and ran (by CPU clock) slower than the 5150. Has a sort of VCR-look to it. No BIOS, except for a very simple bootloader--the BIOS had to be loaded from your boot floppy. One wonders what possessed Sanyo to make the thing. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 14 00:40:47 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:40:47 -0700 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360820293.25639.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360820293.25639.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511C86EF.5060600@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? > Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. Chris Tofu wrote: > O bruther. E-Machines, if even around then, wasn't making no clones. > They made Mac video cards and monitors. And I'll have you know my > Leading Edge/Sperry Model M runs rings around that Big Pyew. Supports > 8" drives even maybe. I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. Eric From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 00:47:57 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:47:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies) Message-ID: <1360824477.48780.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:00 PM PST Scott Quinn wrote: >I AM UNWORTHY! > >I have recited the proper names of the D-shells 10 times through as penance. Scrub out That Which Shall Not Be Named Again and insert whatever descriptive term you prefer. > >Some marketer got to the manuals and put in That Which Shall Not Be Named Again, and the 3B2 is my first introduction to that particular format. I have been instructed in the mysteries and now know the proper terms to use. I have heard on good authority that even the priests and priestesses, Fred, Chuck, Allison,... utter such blasphemies in secretive chambers. So just don't swet it. Everybody's doing it. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 00:56:59 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 22:56:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360825019.6415.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:27 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 02/13/2013 09:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> "It works on a real IBM PC" carries no weight when a reviewer's machine >> is buggy. > >Apparently, the Sanyo piece-of-something MBC-550 series machines are now collectors' items. One of the worst PC-compatibles/non-compatibles ever. Used a WD17xx floppy controller and ran (by CPU clock) slower than the 5150. Has a sort of VCR-look to it. No BIOS, except for a very simple bootloader--the BIOS had to be loaded from your boot floppy. > >One wonders what possessed Sanyo to make the thing. > >--Chuck I thought you liked the Silver Fox. Yes it had a 3.58 mhz clock, a hybrid digital-linear power supply, one red key and the largest return key you'll ever need. My dookey machine don't work currently. It may look like a vcr because it's so compact. Warez are available on the Tandy 2000 yahoo group or at least there's a recent threadc telling you where to find them. They had a following back in the day. Had better color graphics then cga if you could imagine. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 01:02:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:40 PM PST Eric Smith wrote: >I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. > >Eric Nuh uh. The original emachines at least sold mac cards. Check ebay. I still have my old Futura SX video card stuck in a IIcx. From pinball at telus.net Wed Feb 13 13:02:08 2013 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 11:02:08 -0800 Subject: Computing - then & now In-Reply-To: <20130213101551.C44110@shell.lmi.net> References: <20130213101551.C44110@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511BE330.4040403@telus.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > Murray seems to want to get some discussion of our social > structure(s) in the good old days, . . . > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: 12 Feb 2013 03:16:43 -0800 > From: Lee Felsenstein > Subject: EE380 talk Wednesday 4:15PM - Makers, Hackers and the Personal > computer Revolution > > I will be giving the EE380 colloquium lecture Wednesday (2/13) at 4:15 PM, > on > the parallels and divergences between the maker movement and the early > personal computer industry (when it, too was still a "movement", propelled > by > passion and not riches). > > With about 36 hours to put the slides and the outline together it will be > interesting to see the results. They will be streamed live and available > for > replay later - see http://EE380/Stanford.edu . > bad link - try this: http://www.stanford.edu/class/ee380/ John :-#)# > For more shameless self-promotion I offer my new website > www.leefelsenstein.com . I really must put up a notice of the 380 event > there... > > > Lee Felsenstein > http://www.leefelsenstein.com > > > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 01:53:14 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 23:53:14 -0800 Subject: Macintosh 128K in Portland, Cheap In-Reply-To: <1360818808.28523.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360818808.28523.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511C97EA.5030804@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 09:13 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I heard on good authority they ain't making twinkies no mo either. And then one turns up on this forum. Where did you hear that? Saputo's owns the Hostess brand in Canada and is still making Twinkies (and Wonder Bread) there: http://www.canadianfavourites.com/Hostess_Twinkies_300g_p/hostess003.htm I suspect that Canadians like poutine better than Twinkies for a death-food. I keep a few bottles of Mexican Coca-cola in the fridge. Much better than the domestic crap. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 14 02:04:03 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:04:03 -0700 Subject: Terminals Wiki 1st Anniversary Message-ID: One year after it's initial creation, the Terminals Wiki has basic data for approximately 550 different terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 02:43:17 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:43:17 +0000 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360803522.54970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360803522.54970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <602875953-1360831392-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1312373721-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Have you tried making any of those 5.25 to 8" converters with them? -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tofu Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:58:42 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 3B2 floppies I also have a bag full of the card edge to header converters. 1$ + shipping. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Feb 14 03:59:03 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:59:03 +1300 Subject: My EACA Colour Genie on YouTube Message-ID: Another one of my computers in the spotlight. The not-so-well-known EACA Colour Genie. http://youtu.be/8HozhCgfXWA Terry (Tez) From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Thu Feb 14 01:19:31 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 07:19:31 +0000 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project Message-ID: <201302140719.r1E7JXgP062490@mx1.ezwind.net> I just joined the group, although I have had a long time appreciation of vintage computing technology. I spent most of my career on the software, marketing and most other aspects of computers but not hardware. I have put together systems, hacked at things, but at a light level, until recently. I decided to really learn how to design and engineer, choosing a project that would expose me to many aspects and be a forcing function for developing quite a few skills. Not that this makes me a full bore EE or able to design at a current technology professional level, but enough so I could envision, design and make hobby items of pretty much any scope I wanted. The project is a replica of an IBM 1130, a low end mainframe contemporaneous with S/360 and sharing the same logic and other technology. My aim is to build one that is an experiential replica - one that brings me as close as I can get to the experiences and behavior I had sitting in front of the console hand stepping through code back at the end of the 1960s. The internals are based on modern FPGA but producing a cycle by cycle accurate system, faithful to the timing on the real machine. I have a blog detailing the work, my current state and goals, if anyone is interested, at ibm1130.blogspot.com Currently I am adapting an IBM Electronic Typewriter model 50 - a late model of the Selectrics - to serve as the console printer since the 1130 used a 1053 (Selectric based printer). The keyboard is being adapted from a keypunch keyboard, since the 1130 used the keyboard from an IBM 029 punch, and even where I am using more modern devices (a streaming link over USB to a PC to present card images to the peripheral adapter logic, I have made it timing and behavior faithful. The processor itself is working quite well, which is why I have moved the focus to peripherals. It is a very similar effort to that of Lawrence Wilkinson who has built a 360 model 30 and is also building peripherals at this time. You can read about the 360/30 project at http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ I am hoping that members of this group will be able to share advice and information as I look to adapt something like an RK-05 disk drive, since it is very similar to the IBM 1130 drive, in a later phase. It is a truly quixotic project with no clear end, but will give me the excuse to dabble in all manner of old technology along the way. Hopefully many of you will have fascinating projects and experiences that I can enjoy. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 08:06:25 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:06:25 -0500 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0F13343E-4468-450D-BDAC-DAA81E7EBD12@gmail.com> On Feb 14, 2013, at 2:02, Chris Tofu wrote: > ------------------------------ > On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:40 PM PST Eric Smith wrote: > >> I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. >> >> Eric > > Nuh uh. The original emachines at least sold mac cards. Check ebay. I still have my old Futura SX video card stuck in a IIcx. I have a Futura SX II in my basement along with the original driver floppies. I have no idea whether the e-Machines that made it is in any way related to the later one that Apple sued when they started making candy-colored PC clones; my suspicion is no, since I also have a vague (possibly false) recollection that the Mac card company got absorbed by Radius some time around the PowerPC transition. - Dave From doug at doughq.com Thu Feb 14 06:11:17 2013 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:11:17 +1100 Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213210431.J59578@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360801726.92731.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130213172729.U54677@shell.lmi.net> <511C5669.7020003@sydex.com> <20130213210431.J59578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > There are high-density 5.25" drives made by Matsushita and a few others > > that do not offer a low-density (250K) mode for use on the PC98 platform. > > The first "1.2M" drive that I got was Mitsubishi, and had a 50 pin > connector! I suspected that it was targeted at 8" My first CP/M system was a Pulsar Little Big Board machine that I built with dual Mitsubishi M4854 drives - For quite awhile, I was the only person on my block (and probably in my suburb) with 2.4Mb of storage online. It took quite a while to get media that worked ok... They had 34 pin interfaces, but worked great as 8" drive replacements with an adapter board. So Much Storage!!! So few copies of Mbasic! > > Some PC98 drive interfaces require "disk-changed", "ready", and "in-use" > > signals as well as drive select 0-3. It makes sense--the "in use" > > allows software to determine if a drive is present, regardless of > > whether or not it has a diskette inserted. "Ready" likewise makes > > sense. It can be challenging finding replacement drives. > > Surely we don't really need 17 grounds, . . . > I thought that the interleaved grounds were used to reduce crosstalk. In that case, we needed them :-) > -- > Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 14 09:17:16 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:17:16 -0700 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511CFFFC.6050301@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? > Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. Chris Tofu wrote: > O bruther. E-Machines, if even around then, wasn't making no clones. > They made Mac video cards and monitors. And I'll have you know my > Leading Edge/Sperry Model M runs rings around that Big Pyew. Supports > 8" drives even maybe. I wrote: > I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. Chris Tofu wrote: > Nuh uh. The original emachines at least sold mac cards. Check ebay. I > still have my old Futura SX video card stuck in a IIcx. Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the *company* eMachines, which did in fact, as Fred stated, produce PC clones. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Feb 14 09:55:09 2013 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:55:09 +0000 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511CFFFC.6050301@brouhaha.com> References: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511CFFFC.6050301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 14 February 2013 15:17, Someone wrote: > Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the *company* eMachines, which did > in fact, as Fred stated, produce PC clones. I had one of those... the only non laptop PC I haven't built myself in about 20 years. What a piece of crap. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "The Market research says that people love monkeys." --Wes Craven From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 10:07:14 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:07:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360858034.92122.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 12:43 AM PST Sam O'nella wrote: >Have you tried making any of those 5.25 to 8" converters with them? Most of the drives I"ve seen have 50 pin male headers like a scsi-1 or something else entirely. >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Tofu >Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 16:58:42 >To: >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: 3B2 floppies > > >I also have a bag full of the card edge to header converters. 1$ + shipping. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 10:12:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:12:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360858348.99384.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I don't know either nor give a rip. I just know they weren't making peecee clones. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 6:06 AM PST David Riley wrote: >On Feb 14, 2013, at 2:02, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> ------------------------------ >> On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 10:40 PM PST Eric Smith wrote: >> >> I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. >> >> Eric >> >> Nuh uh. The original emachines at least sold mac cards. Check ebay. I still have my old Futura SX video card stuck in a IIcx. > >I have a Futura SX II in my basement along with the >original driver floppies. I have no idea whether the e-Machines >that made it is in any way related to the later one that Apple >sued when they started making candy-colored PC clones; >my suspicion is no, since I also have a vague (possibly >false) recollection that the Mac card company got >absorbed by Radius some time around the PowerPC >transition. > > >- Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 10:16:26 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:16:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 7:17 AM PST Eric Smith wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? >> Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. > >Chris Tofu wrote: >> O bruther. E-Machines, if even around then, wasn't making no clones. They made Mac video cards and monitors. And I'll have you know my Leading Edge/Sperry Model M runs rings around that Big Pyew. Supports 8" drives even maybe. > >I wrote: > >> I'm not sure when "then" was, but I think you've confused the company "eMachines" with the older UMAX/Supermac brand. eMachines was from their inception a PC clone company. Through acquisitions, eMachines was most recently an Acer brand, but has just been discontinued recently. > >Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Nuh uh. The original emachines at least sold mac cards. Check ebay. I still have my old Futura SX video card stuck in a IIcx. > >Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the *company* eMachines, which did in fact, as Fred stated, produce PC clones. In the 1980s??? Please provide proof of that. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 10:48:01 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:48:01 -0800 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: <6f87aaddb0611d547314ed80a57ae304.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6f87aaddb0611d547314ed80a57ae304.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:04 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Well, I collected them form the garage and now they are on my desk. > > The label says CQD-220A/M/T, 34056, B1EF2L > The firmware is F220AE1F2L & F220AE2F2L > > One of the chips on the upper right is having a white label > with 'warranty void....' the other has no label and bears > the text 'qlogic' & 'EGP04804'. > > I hope they are M & T, buy I guess they are either M or T (switchable). What is the PAL part number in U40? Should be the only PAL in a socket, near the EPROMs and CSR select jumpers. Not the chip manufacturer part number (for example I have a PEEL173P on my 220/TM), but the CMD part number, should be something like P22015A, P22016A, P220016B, P22017A. The CQD-220A/M/T F220AE1F2L, F220AE2F2L EPROMs are from the July 27, 1995 release, which is the latest version I found on the CMD website. The corresponding CQD-220A/TM EPROMs from the same release are F220AY1B2L, F220AY2B2L. I have .HEX files for those EPROMs from the CMD website. -Glen From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 11:06:43 2013 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:06:43 -0600 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Richard wrote: >> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sparetimegizmos/classic-pdp8-replica > > Funded. And now fully funded. When I woke up there were two left. By the time I had breakfast together and sat down at a proper Internet device, there were none. Eh, I was never going to get around to building it anyway :) Congrats to all who scored one. j From bob at jfcl.com Thu Feb 14 11:25:26 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:25:26 -0800 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> >Eh, I was never going to get around to building it anyway :) It's worth checking back now and then. It might not be widely known, but it is possible to cancel your Kickstarter pledge up until the time project closes. Two people have cancelled already and their units got snapped up by others in short order. Bob From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 11:27:02 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <602875953-1360831392-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1312373721-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1360803522.54970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <602875953-1360831392-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1312373721-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20130214092337.N72567@shell.lmi.net> > I also have a bag full of the card edge to header converters. 1$ + shipping. On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: > Have you tried making any of those 5.25 to 8" converters with them? 5.25 are 34 pin 8" are 50 Presumably what he has are the male card-edge 34 to female 34 header, as was supplied with early 3.5" in order to conne3ct them to 5150/5160/earlyu 5170 floppy camles that were female card edge at the drive end A few signals need to be re-routed for 5.25 to 8 I'm too densse to understand how these converters will help THAT task. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 14 11:32:58 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:32:58 +0100 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: References: <6f87aaddb0611d547314ed80a57ae304.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <32a2c1b0822d3f38d7162d0cbe0a75a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> You probably do mean U30? U40 is a bus driver. The code on that U30 chip is P220A08A, the '8' could also be a 'B'. Ed > On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 9:04 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> Well, I collected them form the garage and now they are on my desk. >> >> The label says CQD-220A/M/T, 34056, B1EF2L >> The firmware is F220AE1F2L & F220AE2F2L >> >> One of the chips on the upper right is having a white label >> with 'warranty void....' the other has no label and bears >> the text 'qlogic' & 'EGP04804'. >> >> I hope they are M & T, buy I guess they are either M or T (switchable). > > What is the PAL part number in U40? Should be the only PAL in a > socket, near the EPROMs and CSR select jumpers. Not the chip > manufacturer part number (for example I have a PEEL173P on my 220/TM), > but the CMD part number, should be something like P22015A, P22016A, > P220016B, P22017A. > > The CQD-220A/M/T F220AE1F2L, F220AE2F2L EPROMs are from the July 27, > 1995 release, which is the latest version I found on the CMD website. > > The corresponding CQD-220A/TM EPROMs from the same release are > F220AY1B2L, F220AY2B2L. I have .HEX files for those EPROMs from the > CMD website. > > -Glen > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 11:35:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:35:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC 8001 A docs available Message-ID: <1360863327.78186.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> E-majl your needs. I sold the drive cabinet like an idiot but the cpu w/1 busted key (and does not work), and the expansion cabinet w/a few digs I still have. I'll probably put this stuff on ebay soon. I can at least provide digital stills of the manuals though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 11:40:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:40:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <511CFFFC.6050301@brouhaha.com> References: <1360825344.38850.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511CFFFC.6050301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20130214093221.N72567@shell.lmi.net> [early POS] > > I don't remember what it was. Leading Edge? e-machine? Packard-Bell? > > Some sort of freebie thrown at him by some company's marketing. On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure when "then" was, almost 30 years ago He and I were on the "Advisory Committee" for CIS at Merritt College (the next year, I got Jim Warren on), and I handed John a VERY pre-release copy at the meeting. 1983? > Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the *company* eMachines, which > did in fact, as Fred stated, produce PC clones. but, probably not until a little later My mother has one of their 466MHz Pentium machines. It still has the marketing stickers on the front, such as specs and "NEVER OBSOLETE". I will pay somebody $1 to take it away, but I will NOT ship it. OK, I will throw in as much stuff as you can carry from the growing FPUIB collection. The rest of which will go towards Sellam's rebuilding. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 14 11:43:37 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:43:37 -0500 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130214092337.N72567@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360803522.54970.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <602875953-1360831392-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1312373721-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20130214092337.N72567@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511D2249.7060209@verizon.net> On 02/14/2013 12:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I also have a bag full of the card edge to header converters. 1$ + shipping. > On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Sam O'nella wrote: >> Have you tried making any of those 5.25 to 8" converters with them? > 5.25 are 34 pin > 8" are 50 > Presumably what he has are the male card-edge 34 to female 34 header, as > was supplied with early 3.5" in order to conne3ct them to 5150/5160/earlyu > 5170 floppy camles that were female card edge at the drive end > > A few signals need to be re-routed for 5.25 to 8 > > I'm too densse to understand how these converters will help THAT task. > > > Card edge to 34 IDC was common for PCs with 5.25 to 3.5 adaptation. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 11:44:12 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360858348.99384.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360858348.99384.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214094324.F72851@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I don't know either nor give a rip. I just know they weren't making > peecee clones. It was such a POS company that they started up infringing on the name of a good company? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 11:44:44 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:44:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214094418.T72851@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > In the 1980s??? Please provide proof of that. Want one??? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 12:16:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:16:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: E-Machines from Taiwan was Re: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360865787.79877.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> They probably declared themselves never obsolete due to the atx form factor. Was their a 466mhz P* or was that a celeron? I'd bet 10 to 1 you could slap an 8" drive in that baby and archive to your heart's content. Somebody grab it. If you're only reading 8" disks do you still need to reroute anything? Other then power. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 12:20:22 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:20:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214100835.X72851@shell.lmi.net> eMachines On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > In the 1980s??? Please provide proof of that. You are RIGHT! It must have been in the 1990s. Therefore, John was NOT using an eMachine. I hereby apologize to John. At the time, he probably had several machines, presumably including some good [selected] ones, and some crap provided by marketers. But eMachines are the quintessential example of CRAP. Enough for the name of the company to become used to refer to ANY crap from any brand. "Under Meg, even HP is now gearing up to make eMachines!" They were OBVIOUSLY not related to the company that made decent Apple products. They were bought by Gateway, then Acer? OFFICIALLY pronounced dead [with a stake through th3e heart] this year! They arguably held the title of "WORST COMPUTER PRODUCTS" for their entire lifespan. They made Packard Bell look good. They made early Dell look good. They were best known for distributing a BIOS upgrade a few years ago, that permanently bricked every machine that it was installed on. At no point in the company's life did they EVER believe in testing any products. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 12:29:15 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:29:15 -0800 Subject: Question about the CMD CQD-220 In-Reply-To: <32a2c1b0822d3f38d7162d0cbe0a75a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6f87aaddb0611d547314ed80a57ae304.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <32a2c1b0822d3f38d7162d0cbe0a75a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 9:32 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > You probably do mean U30? U40 is a bus driver. > > The code on that U30 chip is P220A08A, the '8' could also be a 'B'. > > Ed Oh, I just realized that you meant CQD-220A, not CQD-220. Completely different boards. The CQD-220A/T/M is also known as the CQD-200A/E which is Either TMSCP or MSCP, but not both at the same time. The ones I have also have version F220AE1F2L and F220AE2F2L in the firmware EPROMs and CSR decode PAL version P220A08A in U30. Yes, you need to replace both the firmware EPROMs and the U30 PAL to get a 220A/E (220A/T/M) to function as a 220A/TM with simultaneous TMSCP and MSCP support. As far as I could determine the U30 PAL on the 220A only decodes special CSR addresses, 17760520 and 17760760, which I suppose could be changed on request by getting a custom PAL from CMD. The standard CSR decoding is done somewhere else, maybe in the large CMD ASIC. Also, as far as I could determine there is a set of static outputs of the U30 PAL which indicates the product version. I created my own version of the U30 PAL which changed the set of static outputs and replaced the /E (/T/M) firmware with the /TM firmware and it seemed to work as expected. The 220A/TM firmware was on the CMD website, but not the PAL files. -Glen From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 12:38:56 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 10:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Packard Bell was also too late (1986) They bought the name from Teledyne, and otherwise had no relation to the respected original Packard Bell company (which dates from the 1920s) Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, Bell aircraft, etc. "An excellent name, on a crappy company." PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from incompatability than quality) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 14 12:41:34 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:41:34 -0700 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> Message-ID: <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/14/2013 10:25 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Eh, I was never going to get around to building it anyway :) > > It's worth checking back now and then. It might not be widely known, but > it is possible to cancel your Kickstarter pledge up until the time project > closes. Two people have cancelled already and their units got snapped up by > others in short order. > > Bob > I'dtake a PDP 11 kit from the wish list. Ben. PS. How is kickstarter different from the old way? Email me XX orders and I will consider making it, payment in advance. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 14 13:15:49 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:15:49 -0800 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <20130214100835.X72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214100835.X72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511D37E5.9040505@jwsss.com> Same people are still paying a friend's paycheck there. It doesn't matter, just a combination of branding / marketing anyway. On 2/14/2013 10:20 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > They were bought by Gateway, then Acer? > OFFICIALLY pronounced dead [with a stake through th3e heart] this year! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 13:20:14 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:20:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D Message-ID: <1360869614.82282.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 9:44 AM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> In the 1980s??? Please provide proof of that. > >Want one??? An E-Machines peecee clone from the 1980s? I'd pay money for it. From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 14 13:21:47 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:21:47 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <007a01ce0ae8$883b9660$98b2c320$@com> >From a standpoint of local computer repairs for the past 15 years, Packard Bell (we called them Crappy Bells) were absolutely the worst. Gateway PI and PII machines, Emachines 486 thru PIII, and HP and Compaq laptops 486 thru P4 are a close second. The Compaq Presario 1200 was notoriously bad (a Windows 98 machine); mine had to be sent back to Compaq 3 times, after which I told them to replace it with something else. They did, and I had no more problems. We have replaced countless HP and Compaq motherboards over the years due to bad caps. Dell P4 machines also had a run of bad caps when the usual supply ran out, and they switched vendors. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 12:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Packard Bell was also too late (1986) They bought the name from Teledyne, and otherwise had no relation to the respected original Packard Bell company (which dates from the 1920s) Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, Bell aircraft, etc. "An excellent name, on a crappy company." PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from incompatability than quality) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6103 - Release Date: 02/14/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6103 - Release Date: 02/14/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 13:25:59 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:25:59 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Packard Bell was also too late (1986) > They bought the name from Teledyne, and otherwise had no relation to the > respected original Packard Bell company (which dates from the 1920s) > > Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an > affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, > Bell aircraft, etc. > "An excellent name, on a crappy company." > > PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. > > > So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? Not exactly clones, and not exactly "early" for some stricter definitions of the term, but there were a number of woefully bad motherboards, especially back in the 384/486 era. The worst I can recall were the PC Chips boards which were both under-engineered and occasionally contained fake cache chips and a BIOS that lied about their presence: http://redhill.net.au/b/b-bad.html - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 13:39:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:39:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360870750.66137.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? > >There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from >incompatability than quality). Hyundai were also too late I assume. Tandy was questionable, but in reality not as bad as their rep. Cordat, Corona? Can't say. There were gujillions of Taiwanese boxes in those days. There were kit computers. I know I'll get egged for.this, but personally I think people were stupid to not build a clone from parts they mail ordered from the back of BYTE. I was in fact too stupid. Heard all the bed rap about evil vicious clones and their problems. I did return my Tandy 1000 once I found out I could get top of the line graphics and screen for the same price. But I waited over a year to buy a Multisync II then some months later a pernicious Tandy 2000. It would have held up longer if I wasn't constantly tearing it apart. Then I bought an Itt Xtra XP 286 hybrid. Wasn't bad at all, but once again I conxtantly twiddled with it's innards. Terry Yaeger once had a Hacker XT luggable. Maybe you should talk to him about it. And I'm telling you right now one of the rarest things in the universe are the later vga luggables that seemingly were churned out in the trillions. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 13:53:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 11:53:51 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 10:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an > affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, > Bell aircraft, etc. > "An excellent name, on a crappy company." > > PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. The funny thing is that there is the PB250 which is a very early minicomputer (I'll call it that, even though the term didn't yet exist) and the PB500 PC, related, I suppose, only in that if you bang on the side of either, you drop bits. There were definitely some bad PB models, sometimes with used components in them. The average 5160 Taiwanese clone motherboard, on the other hand, was pretty respectable. Many have lasted to this day in fine fettle. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 14 13:58:14 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:58:14 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <007a01ce0ae8$883b9660$98b2c320$@com> Message-ID: <432B78EEA74B4D8FAC333D1F495AD0C0@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:21 PM Subject: RE: Who were the worst of the worst? > From a standpoint of local computer repairs for the past 15 years, Packard > Bell (we called them Crappy Bells) were absolutely the worst. Gateway PI > and PII machines, Emachines 486 thru PIII, and HP and Compaq laptops 486 > thru P4 are a close second. The Compaq Presario 1200 was notoriously bad > (a > Windows 98 machine); mine had to be sent back to Compaq 3 times, after > which > I told them to replace it with something else. They did, and I had no > more > problems. We have replaced countless HP and Compaq motherboards over the > years due to bad caps. Dell P4 machines also had a run of bad caps when > the > usual supply ran out, and they switched vendors. > My first new brand name PC was a Packard Bell 286, they were selling like crazy at Sears because they were cheap. It was reliable for me, and to a friend I sold it to when I built my first 386. They did have crappy keyboards and the worst monitors out there (.39DP VGA for example when most others were using .28). You get what you pay for , and that was at a time when there was a decent profit margin to be made selling cheap computers. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 14 14:03:11 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Riley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 2:25 PM Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? > Not exactly clones, and not exactly "early" for some stricter > definitions of the term, but there were a number of woefully > bad motherboards, especially back in the 384/486 era. The > worst I can recall were the PC Chips boards which were both > under-engineered and occasionally contained fake cache chips > and a BIOS that lied about their presence: > > http://redhill.net.au/b/b-bad.html > > > - Dave > Those fake cache 486 boards actually do work well (have one here) and will even use a real cache DIMM if you install it. The major problem with PC Chips is they used 3rd party chipsets that were not exactly the fastest out there (BX named chipsets people confused with the Intel variety on P2's for example). From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 14:03:31 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:03:31 -0500 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Feb 14, 2013, at 1:41 PM, ben wrote: > On 2/14/2013 10:25 AM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >>> Eh, I was never going to get around to building it anyway :) >> >> It's worth checking back now and then. It might not be widely known, but >> it is possible to cancel your Kickstarter pledge up until the time project >> closes. Two people have cancelled already and their units got snapped up by >> others in short order. >> >> Bob >> > > I'dtake a PDP 11 kit from the wish list. > Ben. > PS. How is kickstarter different from the old way? > Email me XX orders and I will consider making it, > payment in advance. Because it's not exactly payment in advance; Amazon's system will place a hold on your credit card, but the hold comes off if the project doesn't make its goal. If the project makes its goal, the charge goes through. In short, it's not that different from "the old way" aside from the fact that it's far more automated. It also presents more hurdles to the project leader; among other things, Kickstarter requires you to make a video, which is one of the major things that has kept me from putting any of my pet projects that need to be built in quantity up there (yes, I know that's "lazy", but it's also beyond my skillset and rather demanding of my limited free time). - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 14:18:43 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:18:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360870750.66137.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360870750.66137.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214120529.S74749@shell.lmi.net> > >So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? > >There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from > >incompatability than quality). On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Hyundai were also too late I assume. Tandy was questionable, but in > reality not as bad as their rep. Yep. another case of not being exactly the same, and catching flack for that. Marketing did little or nothing to help prevent people looking for a CHEAPER 5150 from buying a machine that was DIFFERENT. That was probably MOST of the Sanyo sales, and even the RS 2000. > CordatA, Corona? Can't say. Mediocre, not bad. Trivial incompatabilities, such as difference in what the BRIGHT bit did in video attributes when in reverse video (0Fh) (should it then affect foreground or background?) But, I did love their laser printer. CX engine, with controller/rasterizer card in the PC (software limited to refuse to work with 286). "Poems" made a very easy to use font editor that supported it, as well as HP. I made 7 x 9 pixel "Fiche" fonts so that I could carry hundreds of "pages" of source code on a few sheets of paper in my shirt pocket. But, presbyopia hit me very hard, and I can no longer read any of my old stuff. > There were gujillions of Taiwanese boxes in those days. There were kit > computers. I know I'll get egged for.this, but personally I think people > were stupid to not build a clone from parts they mail ordered from the > back of BYTE. There was a local surplus dealer who had Augat sockets cheap! At local swaps, I was able to buy bare imitation 5160 motherboards. I learned to solder, often while watching TV. The third one that I assembled worked! By then, I was also no longer putting in sockets for DIP Switches and resistor packs :-) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 14:38:07 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:38:07 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 12:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Those fake cache 486 boards actually do work well (have one here) and > will even use a real cache DIMM if you install it. The major problem > with PC Chips is they used 3rd party chipsets that were not exactly the > fastest out there (BX named chipsets people confused with the Intel > variety on P2's for example). I've still got two Socket-7 systems made by PCChips under the Amptron brand. They work respectably well and have no issues, so I wouldn't call them junk; just dicey on the disclosure of what's really on the motherboard. They run Win2K pretty well, as well various Linuces and Win9x. At one time, I think I had one loaded up with Windows XP. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 14 14:46:16 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:46:16 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> On 2/14/2013 11:53 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. Packard bell as in the PC company had zero to do with the original company of the same name (TV sets etc.). It was licensed by a mob in the San Fernando Valley in the LA area and was just a mashup of parts from the usual suspects in Taiwan. The IBM PC Clones started out from a couple of designs, one of which I know was done in Orange County, ca by a guy who basically took the IBM PC tech reference and a copy of the bios and basic roms and built up a board which would run with those chips plugged into it. I bought a bare board and built it up. Later he went bigtime and called himself "Super computer" and stopped selling bare boards, but I saw lots of the same boards and ones from the same mask (the layout was by hand and had unique features) in lots of clcones. Later as the companies in Taiwan grew, they could not ship stuff fast enough apparently and a large number of family members in the US at least in the OC area started up computer stores. I bought from two and knew the people at both ends of the line, and all of the Acer and other Taiwnese company stories matched with only differences in scale and people. For some reason the Koreans could never do anything right. They bought up another company for real $$ started by some friends here, Micro 5 and attempted to go big time with that company selling Novell servers. That product made a lot of server companies or broke them. The Koreans (Samsung) sunk that company like a brick after buying them by taking the main thing that M5 did special away and saying "you don't really need it" All of their customers with any engineering resources did what they should have, re-engineered their main design, and the few small ones went with a friend who had a deal with Samsung to make the original hardware and made him a lot of money. BTW the feature was the M5 386's and Pentium motherboards had lots of slots, I think one bit tower had 13 slots. Samsung pulled that hardware and pushed in their own with only the usual number of slots, and lost all the customers. Somehow they though since they were building servers they could buy up the company and jam their own Novell kit down their throats. I think that operation cost them in the tens of millions in the final analysis The repeated the same operation but at the cost of in the billions was Samsung acquired AST Research. same story lots more money. BTW, A S and T made out well, though T had gone off some time before from the company. So bottom line, the contents of the boxes were just a shuffle from one month / batch to the next. The main building blocks I saw fights about were mother board reference designs / chipsets, where to get memory, how much to pay for a bios (40,000 AMI), where to get boxes, where to get hard drives to put in the boxes. You would have seen various headlines and advertisements when these were going on, but the driving force were the business maneuvers behind these and the players not the designs. They didn't matter. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 14 14:57:11 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:57:11 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? > On 02/14/2013 12:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> Those fake cache 486 boards actually do work well (have one here) and >> will even use a real cache DIMM if you install it. The major problem >> with PC Chips is they used 3rd party chipsets that were not exactly the >> fastest out there (BX named chipsets people confused with the Intel >> variety on P2's for example). > > I've still got two Socket-7 systems made by PCChips under the Amptron > brand. They work respectably well and have no issues, so I wouldn't call > them junk; just dicey on the disclosure of what's really on the > motherboard. They run Win2K pretty well, as well various Linuces and > Win9x. At one time, I think I had one loaded up with Windows XP. > > --Chuck > > I think they were one of the last makers of AT form factor motherboards for cheap upgrades of old machines. Think I have a couple AT P2 boards from them. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 15:04:12 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:04:12 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <511D514C.5000201@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 12:46 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > Packard bell as in the PC company had zero to do with the original > company of the same name (TV sets etc.). It was licensed by a mob in > the San Fernando Valley in the LA area and was just a mashup of parts > from the usual suspects in Taiwan. I thought that the guys behind "Packard Bell, Revised" was an Israeli tank driver and his army buddies. Is that not true? --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 15:10:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360876253.89062.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> . Tandy was questionable, but in >> reality not as bad as their rep. > >Yep. another case of not being exactly the same, and catching flack for >that. Marketing did little or nothing to help prevent people looking for >a CHEAPER 5150 from buying a machine that was DIFFERENT. >That was probably MOST of the Sanyo sales, and even the RS 2000. The 1000 couldn't take the longest cards. The earliest mobos had gold ram. The quality wasn't really bad. The 2k wasn't compatible and was possibly a bit less reliable. But when sales drooped (1st quarter?) They used them in the back rooms. They couldn't have been that bad but perhaps there's a reason so many had Bernoulli boxes jest in case ;) >There was a local surplus dealer who had Augat sockets cheap! At local >swaps, I was able to buy bare imitation 5160 motherboards. I learned to >solder, often while watching TV. The third one that I assembled worked! >By then, I was also no longer putting in sockets for DIP Switches and >resistor packs :-) I got my foist xsistor radio soldered and working wit no problems at all. I have a Canadian made I think MBE-XT bare board. I should populate it jest to see if I still got it going on ;). I'll need a box - anyone - and sit it next to my faux ATjr. Or maybe just screw it to a.piece of plywood and be happy. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 15:10:48 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:10:48 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Feb 14, 2013, at 3:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/14/2013 12:03 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >> Those fake cache 486 boards actually do work well (have one here) and >> will even use a real cache DIMM if you install it. The major problem >> with PC Chips is they used 3rd party chipsets that were not exactly the >> fastest out there (BX named chipsets people confused with the Intel >> variety on P2's for example). > > I've still got two Socket-7 systems made by PCChips under the Amptron brand. They work respectably well and have no issues, so I wouldn't call them junk; just dicey on the disclosure of what's really on the motherboard. They run Win2K pretty well, as well various Linuces and Win9x. At one time, I think I had one loaded up with Windows XP. Apparently their post-486 boards were more or less fine (with the usual accoutrements of a very-low-cost motherboard of the time). No one says bad brands have to stay bad (good brands certainly don't always stay good). The Red Hill site I linked to does point out that aside from the fake cache issue, those 486 boards worked mostly OK, perhaps because the cache RAM was one of the major points of failure on a PC motherboard of the time. - Dave From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 15:16:24 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:16:24 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? > Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were incompatible with most utility programs. Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What an absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible than early clones. From bob at jfcl.com Thu Feb 14 15:32:10 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:32:10 -0800 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> >PS. How is kickstarter different from the old way? >Email me XX orders and I will consider making it, payment in advance. "Payment in advance" was always a problem because services like PayPal specifically prohibit taking payment in advance for a product you can't ship. Also having a large influx of money in a short period of time is a recipe for getting your PayPal account frozen, which leaves you in a world of hurt. Yeah, I'm sure you can come up with examples that violate that rule, but PayPal is nothing if not inconsistent. I was willing to front the money myself, but "email me XX orders" also was a problem. After having done it several times, I can say that only about 50% of the people who say "sign me up" will actually cough up the cash when the time comes. The only safe thing from my point of view was to take the airline approach - sell twice as many tickets as you actually have seats. Of course that leads to unhappy customers, and, well, you know how that goes... Kickstarter solves both those problems. It brings its own set of issues, of course, but I decided to give it a try. Bob From bob at jfcl.com Thu Feb 14 15:35:09 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:35:09 -0800 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009401ce0afb$2a21f2a0$7e65d7e0$@com> >David Riley wrote: >Kickstarter requires you to make a video, FWIW, they don't actually require a video (I don't have one, for example) but they will strongly encourage you to make one. The Kickstarter project review process is negotiable - you'll get a list of things they don't like, and you discuss it with them. Some of 'em you fix, and some of them Kickstarter will agree to overlook. Bob From tom94022 at comcast.net Thu Feb 14 15:37:04 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 13:37:04 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <80E2026A246F4BB7ADF2642E44929091@U260> Let's not be US centric - I nominate AMSTRAD for one of the worst designed system boxes. The cables basically blocked all airflow resulting in all sorts of thermal problems, and the data separator, designed by some UK consultants who knew nothing about the subject, limit-cycled eating up all the disk drive margin. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 10:39 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? > > Packard Bell was also too late (1986) > They bought the name from Teledyne, and otherwise had no relation to the > respected original Packard Bell company (which dates from the 1920s) > > Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an > affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, > Bell aircraft, etc. > "An excellent name, on a crappy company." > > PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. > > > So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? > > There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from > incompatability than quality) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 15:43:29 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:43:29 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA > connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were > incompatible with most utility programs. ISTR some games that had to be released in Tandy 1000-compatible versions, but perhaps that was due to video hardware that wasn't really EGA or VGA-compatible at the register level. -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Thu Feb 14 15:46:51 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:46:51 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130214214651.GA15487@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:38:56AM -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: >So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? In the early days, some companies were afraid of getting sued by IBM (while most of them were totally fearless), so they'd go out of their way to add stupid incompatibilities. I put together a machine (on a rackmount panel) based on an Eagle 1600 motherboard, back when they were dumping those cheap, and it was close to useless. I had to patch the BIOS to work with a normal FDC board (IIRC they'd pointlessly changed the DOR layout), and while it was nice that using an 8086 instead of an 8088 bought some speed, the fact that they didn't account for that in the (8-bit-only) ISA bus interface broke most software that touched the screen etc. ... since the high halves of all word accesses were lost, so you had to special-case your code accordingly. More recently, clones have been great. Whenever people ask what hardware to use to run my stuff, I say cheap no-name junk is the way to go. All those guys have going for them is compatibility! It's the big names who like to have gratuitously unusual hardware or write their own not-quite- vanilla BIOS, and that's where things get nasty. John Wilson D Bit From hachti at hachti.de Thu Feb 14 15:50:44 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:50:44 +0100 Subject: WANTED: TM8E magtape controller for Omnibus Message-ID: <511D5C34.6060703@hachti.de> Hi folks, I already have lots of stuff - but there's always something missing! Is there anybody out there who 1. owns a TM8E magtape controller? and 2. who can imagine to give it away? I have a few TU10 drives that dropped in with a PDP11 some time ago. It would be awsome to get one of them running on a 8/e system. I know that there was a magtape controller. But I'be never seen one. And I don't know anyone who has one. At one point in newer history I found a H960 containing a 8/e and a TU10. But when opening the 8/e, it was empty - no TM11 controller :-( Any hints appreciated. Kind regards Philipp (I'm currently getting my collection reassembled and rearranged. Most of it will be tied together in the place where I'm living. Therefore I have begun to play with minicomputers again - after a few years of very low activity and a widely spread nearly inaccessible collection. And I will sell some stuff!) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Feb 14 15:54:46 2013 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:54:46 -0500 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> Message-ID: <6BD53A24-EA4E-4F92-A404-FCC0D0F0935A@xlisper.com> It seems to be working quite well for you for this run of SBC6120/FP6120 kits. Any chance you'll revive any of your other products using Kickstarter once you're done with this one? On Feb 14, 2013, at 4:32 PM, "Bob Armstrong" wrote: >> PS. How is kickstarter different from the old way? >> Email me XX orders and I will consider making it, payment in advance. > > "Payment in advance" was always a problem because services like PayPal > specifically prohibit taking payment in advance for a product you can't > ship. Also having a large influx of money in a short period of time is a > recipe for getting your PayPal account frozen, which leaves you in a world > of hurt. Yeah, I'm sure you can come up with examples that violate that > rule, but PayPal is nothing if not inconsistent. > > I was willing to front the money myself, but "email me XX orders" also was > a problem. After having done it several times, I can say that only about > 50% of the people who say "sign me up" will actually cough up the cash when > the time comes. The only safe thing from my point of view was to take the > airline approach - sell twice as many tickets as you actually have seats. > Of course that leads to unhappy customers, and, well, you know how that > goes... > > Kickstarter solves both those problems. It brings its own set of issues, > of course, but I decided to give it a try. > > Bob > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 16:15:35 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130214135608.Q76589@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What an > absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible than > early clones. FANTASTIC machine! IBM asked focus groups what they WANTED for a home computer, and then was foolish enough to build THAT! People SAID that they wanted a stripped down machine, and would settle for lack of expandability to cut costs, but in actuality wanted a machine identical, or expandable to be, exactly like the machine at work. They SAID that they didn't need a second floppy, but then objected to the lack of one, and inability [without aftermarket] to add one. They SAID that they didn't need a hard disk, but then objected to the lack of one, and inability [without aftermarket] to add one They SAID that they didn't need EGA or VGA video, but then objected to the lack of it, and inability [without aftermarket] to add it. They SAID that they didn't need ISA slots, but then objected to the lack of it, and inability [without aftermarket] to add them. So, IBM built exactly what they asked for, which wasn't even close to what they actually wanted. EXACTLY the same as such machines as Coco, and proving that they were too big to learn from anybody else's mistakes, IBM included a chiclets keyboard, and then, like RS with the Coco, ended up having to give away free replacement keyboards with "standard" shaped keys. If you didn't like running the cordless keyboard on batteries, you could simply plug it in. "milkshake-proof", but not submersible (confirmed) Non-standard connectors for everything, but kludgeable. Qume 142 drive, which was SO slow stepping that PC-DOS 2.00 had to be replaced with 2.10 to make the changes to allow for the slow step. CGA video with trivial level of improvement. Did they ever air the commercial with fake Charlie Chaplin in a '57 chevy convertible? (Or was that for the laptop?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 16:36:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:36:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360881415.97528.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 1:16 PM PST Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? >> > > >Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA >connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were >incompatible with most utility programs. 1000s didn't use DMA. O/w compatible afaik. I think there was a card that addedc the 8237 iinm >Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What an >absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible than >early clones. Um yeah. The Peanut was an anemic T1000. It's a fun unit if you can live or partially deal with it's deficiencies. I'm just glad I.wasn't suckered into buying one back then. The Sanyos, Peanut, and T1000 had similar video modes. Must have been a creeping hardware virus anomole. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 16:39:57 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:39:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360881597.25024.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 1:37 PM PST Tom Gardner wrote: >Let's not be US centric - I nominate AMSTRAD for one of the worst designed >system boxes. The cables basically blocked all airflow resulting in all >sorts of thermal problems, and the data separator, designed by some UK >consultants who knew nothing about the subject, limit-cycled eating up all >the disk drive margin. > >Tom Didn't Acorn dabble in pcs? What about Research Machines? Fairly robust, no? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 16:41:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360881690.36537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 1:43 PM PST Ethan Dicks wrote: >ISTR some games that had to be released in Tandy 1000-compatible >versions, but perhaps that was due to video hardware that wasn't >really EGA or VGA-compatible at the register level. > >-ethan They took advantage of enhanced CGA modes. Same with the jr. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 16:44:35 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:44:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360881875.93777.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What about Samtron? Were they related to Samsung? And what about Samsung? I know they made a 286 at least. There were a million. Millions and millions. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 14 16:08:40 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:08:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <1360795228.84347.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 13, 13 02:40:28 pm Message-ID: > I know I have. Can't recall off the top what computers used them or if > they were just early ISA cards. But remember this seems to be an oldee. Some original IBM 8 bit cards wee like this, so as to eet a little more board area. I think the Monochrome display adapter was one. This is, I beleive, the reason why the 5170 motherboard has a couple of 8 bit slots The pads are there to add the 16 bit extension connectors, but you cna't fit some of the IBM cards if those conencotrs are present. > Or was it just populated (repopulated?) with old chips? Otherwise what > could be that old and mostly look like an ISA card? What bus used 62 pins? > What dis the IBM System 23 uyse? From what I remember, the aexpansion boards looked like ISA cards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 14 16:17:55 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:17:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <20130213161509.F54303@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 13, 13 04:24:24 pm Message-ID: > There is very little that the 5160 can do that the 5170 CAN'T do, but the > 5160 has less crap in the way. I seem to remember that the 5161 expansion cabinet would only work on the 5150 and 5160 machines. So if you need a lit of slots (perhaps of lab-tope I/O cards) you might not be able to sue a 5170 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 14 16:28:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:28:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130213211200.C59578@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 13, 13 09:13:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2013, James Lynch wrote: > > I changed the software controller parameter on my Zenith Z-100 to get 96 > > TPI on the 5.25 inch drives. Simple change, although had to add a thin > > metal shield on top of drive because of interference from monitor. > > I had to do that when I mounted a full height floppy drive in the "tuner" > space of the TRS80 model 1 monitor. "Mu-metal" > > I don't see any reason why it would be different for 40 tracks or 80 > tracks on the drive. > The narrower head/track of the 80 cylidner [1] driveproducese a smaller signal than that of the 40 cylidner drive. So the interference becomes relatively larger. This may also be why some disks work at 40 cylidners nad not at 80. The read signal is marginal in any case, and when you use narrower tracks, it';s jsut to osmall for the red amplifier to cope with. [1] Stricktly, an IBNM PC 360K disk has 80 tracks. 2 in each fo 40 cylinders. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 14 16:44:53 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 22:44:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <20130214092337.N72567@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 14, 13 09:27:02 am Message-ID: > 5.25 are 34 pin > 8" are 50 > Presumably what he has are the male card-edge 34 to female 34 header, as > was supplied with early 3.5" in order to conne3ct them to 5150/5160/earlyu > 5170 floppy camles that were female card edge at the drive end > > A few signals need to be re-routed for 5.25 to 8 > > I'm too densse to understand how these converters will help THAT task. If you don't wantto etch your own PCB, it's relatively hard to get a male card edge conenctor (and if you do etch your own board, it's non-trivial to gold plate it). it is, however, quite easy to get header plugs of various sizes, including ones with wire-wrap pins. If I ahd to make such an adapter in a hurry (== no time to make the PCB)_, I'd probably put 34 pin and 50 pin wire-wrap headers ont a bit of square pad board, wire-wrap approrpraity, and fit one of said adapterso nto the 34 pin header to conenct to the edge connector on the cable. FWIW, I sued such adpaters to make Vektrex cartirdges some years bakc The Vectrex cartrdgi9e conenctor has 36 pins IIRC, but you don't need the rearmost 2. So some od said adapters with a wire-wrap IC socket -- one row of pins bent out at 90 degress to plug into the adapter, the other soldered to a bit of stripboard with pins soldered to it to go in the other row of adapter holes -- was essentially all that was needed. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 14 17:20:53 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:20:53 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F06AECC81EF437F911C1498F093E08F@hd2600xt6a04f7> The Tandy 1000 series WAS a clone of the PC Jr, why would you expect 100% 5150 compatibility? Tandy didn't have DMA unless you got the special RAM upgrades, and they made sure to have all the ports different to sell you Tandy cables (special joystick ports, serial ports of the wrong gender, special printer ports, even the floppy drives were different then anything on a clone because the power was in the data cable). The very last 1000's ended up with VGA I think. Nobody with a clue would have purchased these new. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 4:16 PM Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? > > >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? >> > > > Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA > connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were > incompatible with most utility programs. > > Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What > an > absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible > than > early clones. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 17:27:39 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:27:39 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214214651.GA15487@dbit.dbit.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <20130214214651.GA15487@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <511D72EB.4040802@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 01:46 PM, John Wilson wrote: > In the early days, some companies were afraid of getting sued by IBM > (while most of them were totally fearless), so they'd go out of their way > to add stupid incompatibilities. I put together a machine (on a rackmount > panel) based on an Eagle 1600 motherboard, back when they were dumping those > cheap, and it was close to useless. I had to patch the BIOS to work with > a normal FDC board (IIRC they'd pointlessly changed the DOR layout), and > while it was nice that using an 8086 instead of an 8088 bought some speed, > the fact that they didn't account for that in the (8-bit-only) ISA bus > interface broke most software that touched the screen etc. ... since the > high halves of all word accesses were lost, so you had to special-case > your code accordingly. Wait a second--the 1600 preceded the Eagle PC by about a year. Lots of companies came out with 16-bit 8086-based boxes before it was apparent that compatibility with the IBM iron was a necessity--remember that for the first year or two, there wasn't that much in the way of IBM-specific hardware. Lotus pretty much changed all of that. According to my notes, the Eagle 1600 was probably a better system than the 5150. 8086 CPU, optional hard drive, 96 tpi (800K) drives. It was marketed with CP/M 86 initially. Eagle might have survived if the founder hadn't gone out celebrating the IPO. As another example, there was the Columbia 960 (IIRC) that had an 8086, but was followed by the MPC that was actually an IBM compatible but inferior to the 960. How much compatibility was another question. Initially, it was assumed that being able to run MS-DOS and early software, such as Multiplan was sufficient. I participated (against my better judgement) in an effort that inolved a 186 feeding a VT220-type terminals was sufficient--it ran MS-DOS. There's always the Tandy 2000 and the Stearns PC. Compatible, but not sufficiently so to acquire any market share. Remmber that the 8086 was sampling in 1978, so there was a lot of time before the 5150 came on-scene. Heck, the IBM Displaywriter precedes the 5150 and could run CP/M-86. Bill Godbout had cards out using both the 8086 and 8088 CPUs. I recall that initially, the licensing for small quantities of MS-DOS was so hostile, that Godbout's people worked out a way to patch a new IO.SYS into a retail copy of PC-DOS 1.x to run on the S100 box. Of course the NEC PC98 (APC, 9801) was completely incompatible with the 5150, but hung on for many years, due to its almost total domination of the Japanese market. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 17:30:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:30:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130214152627.X76589@shell.lmi.net> [skirt extending below ISA fingers] On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > > I know I have. Can't recall off the top what computers used them or if > > they were just early ISA cards. But remember this seems to be an oldee. > Some original IBM 8 bit cards wee like this, so as to eet a little more > board area. I think the Monochrome display adapter was one. Many boards had a skirt that extended below the top of the ISA connector down almost to the surface of the motherboard. You could not install those board in slots that were lined up with chips on the motherboard. But skirts that extended past the length of the fingers of the ISA card edge were quite rare, and only usable on extender boards, such as short-height cases that mounted their ISA boards to an adapter to make them PARALLEL to the motherboard. > This is, I beleive, the reason why the 5170 motherboard has a couple of 8 > bit slots The pads are there to add the 16 bit extension connectors, but > you cna't fit some of the IBM cards if those conencotrs are present. AND, think of all the pennies that were saved in manufacturing by only using the 8 bit connector and leaving off the other connector! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chris at micromuseum.co.uk Thu Feb 14 17:35:38 2013 From: chris at micromuseum.co.uk (Chris Long) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:35:38 -0000 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360881597.25024.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360881597.25024.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001ce0b0b$ff0cfc70$fd26f550$@micromuseum.co.uk> Research Machines made a whole range of PCs starting with the first Nimbus. I have one in the collection but have had little time to look at it tbh. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: 14 February 2013 22:40 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Who were the worst of the worst? ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 1:37 PM PST Tom Gardner wrote: >Let's not be US centric - I nominate AMSTRAD for one of the worst >designed system boxes. The cables basically blocked all airflow >resulting in all sorts of thermal problems, and the data separator, >designed by some UK consultants who knew nothing about the subject, >limit-cycled eating up all the disk drive margin. > >Tom Didn't Acorn dabble in pcs? What about Research Machines? Fairly robust, no? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 17:39:19 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:39:19 -0800 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project In-Reply-To: <201302140719.r1E7JXgP062490@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302140719.r1E7JXgP062490@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <511D75A7.5060502@sydex.com> On 02/13/2013 11:19 PM, Claunch,Carl wrote: > Currently I am adapting an IBM Electronic Typewriter model 50 - a > late model of the Selectrics - to serve as the console printer since > the 1130 used a 1053 (Selectric based printer). The keyboard is being > adapted from a keypunch keyboard, since the 1130 used the keyboard > from an IBM 029 punch, and even where I am using more modern devices > (a streaming link over USB to a PC to present card images to the > peripheral adapter logic, I have made it timing and behavior > faithful. The processor itself is working quite well, which is why I > have moved the focus to peripherals. It is a very similar effort to > that of Lawrence Wilkinson who has built a 360 model 30 and is also > building peripherals at this time. You can read about the 360/30 > project at http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ Nice work! I remember the 1130. What are you doing for a card reader? I recall that the 1130 could only read column-binary--it was up to software to interpret the data into character codes. Has anyone done an FPGA emulation of the 1620? That one has a soft spot in my heart to the extent that I can still remember the numeric opcodes for many instructions. The 1401 occupies a similar place in my memories. Little IBM boxes were really cute. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 18:04:01 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:04:01 -0800 Subject: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511D7B71.4050502@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 02:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Stricktly, an IBNM PC 360K disk has 80 tracks. 2 in each fo 40 > cylinders. It depends upon your terminology. sectors->tracks->heads->cyliners. Some argue that this applies only to hard drives, but I see no reason that this should be true. I have many floppies that are labeled by the manufacturer as 35/40 track, double-sided. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 14 18:05:42 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:05:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <009401ce0afb$2a21f2a0$7e65d7e0$@com> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <009401ce0afb$2a21f2a0$7e65d7e0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> David Riley wrote: >> Kickstarter requires you to make a video, > > FWIW, they don't actually require a video (I don't have one, for example) > but they will strongly encourage you to make one. The Kickstarter project > review process is negotiable - you'll get a list of things they don't like, > and you discuss it with them. Some of 'em you fix, and some of them > Kickstarter will agree to overlook. When I did the P112 Kickstarter project, they wanted me to do a video before they'd approve the project. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 18:06:56 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:06:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360886816.19238.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I seem to recall using a PCjr drive (Qume?) to image disks in a newer pc.. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 3:20 PM PST TeoZ wrote: even the floppy drives were different then anything on a clone because the power was in the data cable). From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 14 18:36:49 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:36:49 -0700 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511D8321.1020500@landcomp.net> On 2/14/13 11:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Packard Bell was also too late (1986) > They bought the name from Teledyne, and otherwise had no relation to the > respected original Packard Bell company (which dates from the 1920s) > > Packard Bell's sales were ALL due to unsavvy consumers assuming an > affiliation with the original radio company, Hewlett-Packard, Bell Labs, > Bell aircraft, etc. > "An excellent name, on a crappy company." > > PCWorld claimed that Packard Bell was the worst of all time. > > > So, who WERE the worst EARLY clones? > > There WERE much worse machines than Sanyo. (which suffered more from > incompatability than quality) > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I would have to say, without a doubt,Packard Bell (actually owned two of those crap-boxes), early Compaq Presario 'all-in-ones', and PC-Chips mobos. They were probably some of the worst motherboards to ever come off an assembly line. Driver support was almost nil, and they seemed to be plagued with hard- ware problems, i.e. bad capacitors and such. Surprisingly, I never had any problems with E-machines, other than general configuration stuff and the occasional 'self-induced' problems. Speaking of Compaq all-in-ones, my sister- in-law had one of those that ended up costing me about $200 in tech support and eventually a trip back to Compaq to replace the motherboard because I had the foresight to open it up and blow some of the dust bunnies out of it before I upgraded it. They really had heating problems and this one fried the video chip, and I guess I finished it off when I opened it up. :P Dave Land Land Computer Service > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 14 19:01:24 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:01:24 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D514C.5000201@sydex.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> <511D514C.5000201@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511D88E4.1070602@jwsss.com> On 2/14/2013 1:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I thought that the guys behind "Packard Bell, Revised" was an Israeli > tank driver and his army buddies. Is that not true? > > --Chuck from the only source I have handy, the usual: "In 1986, Israeli investors bought the name for a newly formed personal computer manufacturer. Originally the company produced discount computers in the US and Canada. When it left the North American computer industry in 2000," REading over more of what is there I do recall a fuss about them trashing windows, but they tried to put up a startup thing to assist buyers in the center of the bell curve with no chance of figuring out the product. Microsoft forced that off by changing their licensing, and everyone had only some useless buttons to add, which made the PB marketing people and I think one other obnoxious sort to look the same (as the article points out) as everyone else. With an inferior product, the crashed and regrouped. I know at least them leaving involved this area (Southern California) because the Packard Bell junk wave was one of many I can name. Not as useful as most, but did produce a lot of cheap video cards, and the like. I think they had something going in Thousand Oaks from some memory. The article says a call center in Utah, but that was unlikely to have any shipping involved. The investors were Israeli from the article, not sure if they drove tanks. as a thread hijack if anyone reads this far, name the "junk waves" you have seen / are seeing. I mean if one junk dealer has it they all have it. In Orange County Packard bell was one. Kaypro Grid Drivetec 2 or three OC based S-100 operations. Vector Hamliton liquidating their Sun hardware / design consulting division. In the Bay area: Who remembers the Godbout Auction in Santa Clara, trying to pump up business at one of the swap meets there. Later same when compupro sold out and crashed. One of my friends and I visited on it years ago, and he said "they won't consider me as a viable supplier of parts when they have money and are on the way up, why should I treat them special when they are screwed and come to me with junk". Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 14 19:06:22 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:06:22 -0700 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <6BD53A24-EA4E-4F92-A404-FCC0D0F0935A@xlisper.com> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> <6BD53A24-EA4E-4F92-A404-FCC0D0F0935A@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <511D8A0E.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/14/2013 2:54 PM, David Betz wrote: > It seems to be working quite well for you for this run of > SBC6120/FP6120 kits. Any chance you'll revive any of your other > products using Kickstarter once you're done with this one? > My gripe with kickstarter, is no preview feature. I would like to know of projects a good year in advance, since money and time can vanish quite soon, often a day or two before I find a interesting project. Ben. PS. A comic book sized e-reader ( 13x19 cm ) screen size for PDF's in the $200 range would be good idea for 2010+, once one thinks of something that is not a 1970's era project. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 14 19:30:04 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:30:04 -0700 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: <511D8A0E.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> <6BD53A24-EA4E-4F92-A404-FCC0D0F0935A@xlisper.com> <511D8A0E.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <511D8A0E.9040108 at jetnet.ab.ca>, ben writes: > My gripe with kickstarter, is no preview feature. My gripe with kickstarter is that noone wants to fund my projects designed around a 40-pin DIP Z80 with large amounts of associated glue logic in DIP packages for a board kit cost of $250 or more. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 14 19:46:12 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:46:12 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D88E4.1070602@jwsss.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> <511D514C.5000201@sydex.com> <511D88E4.1070602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <511D9364.4090706@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 05:01 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > "In 1986, Israeli investors bought the name for a newly formed personal > computer manufacturer. Originally the company produced discount > computers in the US and Canada. When it left the North American computer > industry in 2000," Found this on http://explanation-guide.info/meaning/Beny-Alagem.html Beny Alagem was a former Israeli tank driver and the founder of Packard Bell Electronics, a leading American computer manufacturer during the late 1980s and early 1990s. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 19:50:19 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:50:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360886816.19238.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360886816.19238.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214174516.K76589@shell.lmi.net> > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 3:20 PM PST TeoZ wrote: > even the floppy drives were different then anything on a clone because > the power was in the data cable). On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I seem to recall using a PCjr drive (Qume?) to image disks in a newer pc.. Common versions of the Qume 142 do NOT have power in the cable. Although there certainly could be special submodels that do that. Other than being much slower stepping than the previous drives, it's a fairly ordinary drive, and the ones that are working will do OK as a "360K" drive for normal use. PC-DOS 2.10 sets the drive step rate slower than that in PC-DOS 2.00. Qume 142 is why. Used in PCJr, and in "PortablePC" (a crude imitation of a Compaq portable with CGA video and an XT motherboard with inadequate clearance to use most of the slots that it has.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 19:55:52 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D9364.4090706@sydex.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <511D40CF.5000204@sydex.com> <511D4D18.9070103@jwsss.com> <511D514C.5000201@sydex.com> <511D88E4.1070602@jwsss.com> <511D9364.4090706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130214175527.F76589@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Beny Alagem was a former Israeli tank driver and the founder of Packard > Bell Electronics, a leading American computer manufacturer during the > late 1980s and early 1990s. I am amused by the use of the word "leading" From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 19:57:47 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 01:57:47 +0000 Subject: NEC D765D In-Reply-To: <20130214100835.X72851@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214100835.X72851@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 14 February 2013 18:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > > But eMachines are the quintessential example of CRAP. Enough for the name > of the company to become used to refer to ANY crap from any brand. > "Under Meg, even HP is now gearing up to make eMachines!" This man speaks the truth. I have has the misfortune to work on a few of them. They were dire - drastically underspecced, cut-down (missing DIMM slots and so on) and made of the cheapest nastiest components available. Celerons agogo. But cheap, *if* you don't have enough of a clue to go to a friendly local privately-owned PC shop who (if you found a good one) could build you better for less. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 20:09:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 18:09:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360894159.77219.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 3:35 PM PST Chris Long wrote: >Research Machines made a whole range of PCs starting with the first Nimbus. > >I have one in the collection but have had little time to look at it tbh. I used to have a Nimbus mobo. And I was thinking Apricot, yet said Acorn (that made a pc). From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 20:59:59 2013 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:59:59 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214135608.Q76589@shell.lmi.net> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> <20130214135608.Q76589@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 5:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > So, IBM built exactly what they asked for, which wasn't even close to what > they actually wanted. > The bit I remember is they heavily marketed them at K-12, where, in a lab setting, the IR keyboards would interfere with each other. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 21:12:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 19:12:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> <20130214135608.Q76589@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130214191036.H76589@shell.lmi.net> [PCJr] On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Jason McBrien wrote: > The bit I remember is they heavily marketed them at K-12, where, in a lab > setting, the IR keyboards would interfere with each other. But, but, but, . . . it is so trivial to just connect the RJ11 and run them tethered. The unconnected keyboards didn't just wander away? From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Feb 14 21:33:50 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 03:33:50 +0000 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available Message-ID: <624846811-1360899229-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1760276160-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> >From what I've read kickstarter also requires some formal example of a finished product now as well. Not just a pipedream with sponsorship. I imagine they're trying to use that as some security vs pay for an idea that someone might not be able to produce. From indiscreetlogic at yahoo.com Thu Feb 14 22:51:46 2013 From: indiscreetlogic at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 20:51:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies Message-ID: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 2:44 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >If you don't wantto etch your own PCB, it's relatively hard to get a male >card edge conenctor you can accomplish rudimentary masking and etching by using cheap packing tape. Encapsulate the board then slice and remove portions of the board you'd like to etch away. No copper sulfate IIRC (the etchant) won't eat your fingers. Just DON'T pour it down the drain, protect your clothes and be careful of animals. (and if you do etch your own board, it's non-trivial >to gold plate it). Well plating can be accomplished in the home shop but where are you going to get the gold. Wait for a meteorite? But it brings up an interesting idea of mine. Couldn't you reverse plate the gold right off of pins and whatnot? No nasty chemicals, no mess, no fuss. it is, however, quite easy to get header plugs of >various sizes, including ones with wire-wrap pins. > >If I ahd to make such an adapter in a hurry (== no time to make the >PCB)_, I'd probably put 34 pin and 50 pin wire-wrap headers ont a bit of >square pad board, wire-wrap approrpraity, and fit one of said adapterso >nto the 34 pin header to conenct to the edge connector on the cable. If I'm following you, couldn't you cut the card edge from a busted drive, solder that to an appropriate board (I would have to assume the spacing is identical), solder a header connector, preferably right angle, to the opposite side of the board, then solder jumper wires where appropriate? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 14 23:34:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 21:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130214211225.T83197@shell.lmi.net> > > (and if you do etch your own board, it's non-trivial > > to gold plate it). On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Well plating can be accomplished in the home shop but where are you > going to get the gold. Wait for a meteorite? > But it brings up an interesting idea of mine. Couldn't you reverse > plate the gold right off of pins and whatnot? No nasty chemicals, no > mess, no fuss. just melt down the pins from a few tubes of 4004s. > >If I ahd to make such an adapter in a hurry (== no time to make the > >PCB)_, I'd probably put 34 pin and 50 pin wire-wrap headers ont a bit of > >square pad board, wire-wrap approrpraity, and fit one of said adapterso > >nto the 34 pin header to conenct to the edge connector on the cable. > If I'm following you, couldn't you cut the card edge from a busted > drive, solder that to an appropriate board (I would have to assume the > spacing is identical), solder a header connector, preferably right > angle, to the opposite side of the board, then solder jumper wires where > appropriate? I would use dual row headers. WHY bother making a card edge? You are going to plug a cable onto that, so WHY bother making a card edge? Anybody with a vise or a hammer can make cables with whichever connector you want! Are the trash bins no longer full of 34 pin cables with every combination of card edge and header? When I cleared my office, I sold a tote full for $1. BUT, I kept the empty tote. Like IEC power cords, they ARE worth something IN THEORY, but where do you find anybody who doesn't have more than they need? My first 5.25 to 8 adapter was one of those white plastic "plug-in breadboard" with a 34 pin dual row header and a 50 pin dual row header. Treacherously unreliable for a lot of things, but fine for experimenting with pinout. Then I found that so many of the pins went through with their adjacent ones, that my next cables were just crimped on connectors ith a few wires switched around. Admittedly, I was ignoring TG43, etc. For a fancy one with that, there are commercial ones available now. (There may have been then, but I didn't know where to look) From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Feb 15 00:12:20 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 07:12:20 +0100 Subject: 6120-based PDP-8 kit available In-Reply-To: References: <201302112153.r1BLrqIE031670@mx1.ezwind.net> <006101ce0ad8$477310a0$d65931e0$@com> <511D2FDE.8060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <009001ce0afa$bfa69430$3ef3bc90$@com> <6BD53A24-EA4E-4F92-A404-FCC0D0F0935A@xlisper.com> <511D8A0E.9040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Richard wrote: >My gripe with kickstarter is that noone wants to fund my projects >designed around a 40-pin DIP Z80 with large amounts of associated glue >logic in DIP packages for a board kit cost of $250 or more. Which is doing waht with all the glue? From amh at POBOX.COM Thu Feb 14 11:21:31 2013 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:21:31 -0500 Subject: Long Live the Quad was Re: NO QUAD (Was: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360794774.86931.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/13/13, Chris Tofu wrote: > I've readily created and reproduced images of Tandy 2000 720k 5 1/4" > floppies with run of the mill 1.2 Meg drives. All kinds.Imagedisk, Teledisk > wotevuh. In early pentiums and whatnot. Didn't tamper with jumpers nor data > rates. And I do seem to recall W2K server straitaway raeding quads in 1.2 > drives. Again w/no tampering or fenagling anything. Not even a pretty > please. This was my experience as well, imaging 720K 5.25" floppies originally written by a 3B2. No problems at all reading on a semi-modern 1.2M 5.25" floppy drive in a P-133 PC. Evidently the floppy controller is smart enough to adjust the data rate without outside assistance, using Linux, OpenBSD, or IMD running under DOS. PS to the original poster: I have a variety of disk images for these machines, if you're interested contact me privately and I can send a list. -Andy From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 02:09:58 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 08:09:58 +0000 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project In-Reply-To: <511D75A7.5060502@sydex.com> References: <201302140719.r1E7JXgP062490@mx1.ezwind.net> <511D75A7.5060502@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511DED56.4060809@gmail.com> On 14/02/2013 23:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/13/2013 11:19 PM, Claunch,Carl wrote: > >> Currently I am adapting an IBM Electronic Typewriter model 50 - a >> late model of the Selectrics - to serve as the console printer since >> the 1130 used a 1053 (Selectric based printer). The keyboard is being >> adapted from a keypunch keyboard, since the 1130 used the keyboard >> from an IBM 029 punch, and even where I am using more modern devices >> (a streaming link over USB to a PC to present card images to the >> peripheral adapter logic, I have made it timing and behavior >> faithful. The processor itself is working quite well, which is why I >> have moved the focus to peripherals. It is a very similar effort to >> that of Lawrence Wilkinson who has built a 360 model 30 and is also >> building peripherals at this time. You can read about the 360/30 >> project at http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/vhdl/ > > Nice work! > > I remember the 1130. What are you doing for a card reader? I recall > that the 1130 could only read column-binary--it was up to software to > interpret the data into character codes. > > Has anyone done an FPGA emulation of the 1620? I don't think so. Of course there already is an FPGA emulation of the 1130 by Richard T. Stofer which does plotting to an HPGL plotter. There is a video of his presentation to the 06 1130.org party here:- http://ibm1130.org/party/v06 I also have hacks to the SIMH emulation to drive an HPGL plotter. Video of it in action here:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCUUgLvVvpg But for the 1620 nothing so far. There is Java based emulator but the only software thats been converted is the diagnostics. Al did load up the other stuff he has to bit savers , but I havn't had time to look at it, as I got distracted by a project to connect some Creed equipment from a Ferranti Pegasus to a software emulator.... > That one has a soft spot in my heart to the extent that I can still > remember the numeric opcodes for many instructions. The 1401 occupies > a similar place in my memories. Little IBM boxes were really cute. > The 1620 I used wasn't what I would call "cute"but it was the second machine I programmed. > --Chuck > Dave G4UGM From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 15 02:14:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:14:15 -0800 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511DEE57.5010007@sydex.com> On 02/14/2013 08:51 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > you can accomplish rudimentary masking and etching by using cheap > packing tape. Encapsulate the board then slice and remove portions of > the board you'd like to etch away. No copper sulfate IIRC (the > etchant) won't eat your fingers. Just DON'T pour it down the drain, > protect your clothes and be careful of animals. I've never heard of anyone using copper sulfate as an echant--I don't even see how it would work, chemically. Heck, I spray the stuff on my fruit trees during the wintertime. I think you mean ferric chloride as an etchant, although an alternative is getting to be popular--a mixture of hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide. I've used it--it works pretty well. Both are readily available. > Well plating can be accomplished in the home shop but where are you > going to get the gold. Wait for a meteorite? But it brings up an > interesting idea of mine. Couldn't you reverse plate the gold right > off of pins and whatnot? No nasty chemicals, no mess, no fuss. And pretty much lousy plating. Cyanide solutions of gold are the usual stuff. A nickel "strike" coat is also desirable. Small gold-electroplating kits can be had from outfits such as Caswell. Tinplate solutions can be had for PCB use, which work pretty well in my experience--just don't mix up more than you need--the stuff has a working life of only a few hours. > If I'm following you, couldn't you cut the card edge from a busted > drive, solder that to an appropriate board (I would have to assume > the spacing is identical), solder a header connector, preferably > right angle, to the opposite side of the board, then solder jumper > wires where appropriate? It all sounds like too much work for a simple adapter. I'd get an IDC edge connector, then "weave' the wires from a 34-conductor ribbon cable to the appropriate pins, using a strip of packing tape to hold them in position until the IDC can be crimped in place. I've done it--no big bother--about a half-hour's work. --Chuck From wilson at dbit.com Fri Feb 15 02:16:39 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 03:16:39 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511D72EB.4040802@sydex.com> References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <20130214214651.GA15487@dbit.dbit.com> <511D72EB.4040802@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130215081639.GA20874@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 03:27:39PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Wait a second--the 1600 preceded the Eagle PC by about a year. Um, OK. I'm not familiar with the Eagle PC. >Lots >of companies came out with 16-bit 8086-based boxes before it was >apparent that compatibility with the IBM iron was a >necessity--remember that for the first year or two, there wasn't that >much in the way of IBM-specific hardware. Lotus pretty much changed >all of that. Sure but the 1600 wasn't just some random 8086 machine, it used the ISA bus and a similar BIOS and kept the usual things at the usual addresses, except for the annoying changes. >According to my notes, the Eagle 1600 was probably a better system >than the 5150. Absolutely! Too bad that turned out not to matter. Having hardware to split 16-bit bus cycles into two 8-bit ISA cycles would have been very nice, but other than that it was a decent design, and quite a bit faster. >8086 CPU, optional hard drive, 96 tpi (800K) drives. I'd forgotten about the assumption of 96 TPI drives, but come to think of it I did have to dig up a pair of TM100-4s to make it work. Luckily they were kind of black sheep at the time (not useful on most new computers), which made them actually cheaper than TM100-2s. >Eagle might have survived if >the founder hadn't gone out celebrating the IPO. That was a real shame... >How much compatibility was another question. Initially, it was >assumed that being able to run MS-DOS and early software, such as >Multiplan was sufficient. Yeah it seemed like DOS was going to be CP/M all over again, but the 5150's market share reached critical mass so that it got hard to resist reaching out and touching the hardware, since that worked so much better than using either DOS or the BIOS. A month or two of a *good* programmer's time back then (to put good drivers in front of the hardware) could have prevented all that... But no. John Wilson D Bit From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 15 02:26:23 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 03:26:23 -0500 Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <511DEE57.5010007@sydex.com> References: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511DEE57.5010007@sydex.com> Message-ID: <511DF12F.8010406@neurotica.com> On 02/15/2013 03:14 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> you can accomplish rudimentary masking and etching by using cheap >> packing tape. Encapsulate the board then slice and remove portions of >> the board you'd like to etch away. No copper sulfate IIRC (the >> etchant) won't eat your fingers. Just DON'T pour it down the drain, >> protect your clothes and be careful of animals. > > I've never heard of anyone using copper sulfate as an echant--I don't > even see how it would work, chemically. Heck, I spray the stuff on my > fruit trees during the wintertime. I've definitely heard of copper sulfate as an etchant. I've never used it, though, and don't know anything about it. Definitely heard of it in that context though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ats at offog.org Fri Feb 15 04:28:41 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:28:41 +0000 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <000001ce0b0b$ff0cfc70$fd26f550$@micromuseum.co.uk> (Chris Long's message of "Thu, 14 Feb 2013 23:35:38 -0000") References: <1360881597.25024.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <000001ce0b0b$ff0cfc70$fd26f550$@micromuseum.co.uk> Message-ID: "Chris Long" writes: > Research Machines made a whole range of PCs starting with the first > Nimbus. The RM Nimbus isn't really a PC clone -- it ran MS-DOS but had rather different hardware. We used them at school in the early 90s and absolutely hated them; I remember that you had to do "ibmii /p /c" or "setpc /p /c" to get anything with a graphics display to work, and that the colour mapping in text mode was odd, so using qbasic on them meant editing text in white on a red background. Which did interesting things to your vision after a while... If anyone in the Dundee area would like one (with keyboard and monitor), then let me know! -- Adam Sampson From RolexTM at gmx.de Fri Feb 15 07:48:07 2013 From: RolexTM at gmx.de (Alex) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 14:48:07 +0100 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. Message-ID: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> Hi all, my Name is Alex, me and a friend of mine have been actively participating in a computer collection, mostly repairing stuff and bringing it back to life. We have numerous old apples, vaxes, decstations, suns, next etc and some real weird old stuff ;) Lately we discovered a DG nova standing in a dark corner of a storeroom. We have absolutely no peripherals, just the bare machine. It has 2 CPU boards, a general IO card, 2 Memory boards and some unknown third party controller. The Machine as it sits now has 2-3 problems (at least): 1: Somehow the "desposit next" switch does not work as expected by not incrementing the adress sometimes. Doing a deposit-examine next-deposit works, so thats a minor problem. 2: Simple programs run fine in single step mode. Press RUN and the machine seems to hang. You can not even STOP anymore, you have to reset the machine. Annonying, but to test the simple stuff single stepping also works.... 3: The biggest problem is: The ACs have numerous bits stuck on 1. It is the same bit pattern for all ACs. We can store and deposit the non-stuck bits, but all others remain a 1. With this behaviour its really really hard to write any meaningful asm to test the machine ;) Please see the attached Link for pictures of the machine and the bit-pattern of the AC. Since the AC Deposit works as expected and the error shows only when examining we are positive that the error is not in the AC Registers itself but somewhere where the switch location is actually shifted into the AC....or something like that. We are also struggling a bit to get all the documentation in a meaningful relation. So if you have any pointers on what to do or check, please chime in. If the machine gets back to life i have plans on emulating a storage device to run one of the available os-es. Should be doable with a microcontroller and some logic glue.....but it looks like a long way ;) See actual pictures of the machine here http://bigalpha.ath.cx/nova/pics/ori/index.html where you can also see the bit Pattern of the AC. I kinda wonder why its 1 11X 111 X11 1X1 11X I guess this should point us nearer to the point of failure. best regards Alex From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 15 08:46:30 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 06:46:30 -0800 Subject: [***SPAM*** Score/Req: 9.3/6.1] DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> References: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> Message-ID: <511E4A46.10709@bitsavers.org> On 2/15/13 5:48 AM, Alex wrote: > I kinda wonder why its > 1 11X 111 X11 1X1 11X > I guess this should point us nearer to the point of failure. > The original Nova has a 4 bit ALU From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 15 09:02:32 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 07:02:32 -0800 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> References: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> Message-ID: When I got my Nicolet, I had a similar sounding problem.It turned out to be a missing clock.Of course, yours may be soemthing different but you aregoing to need some schematics and a scope to track down.( I did mine without a schematic but I was lucky ).Dwight > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 14:48:07 +0100 > From: RolexTM at gmx.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DG Nova repair etc. > > Hi all, > > my Name is Alex, me and a friend of mine have been actively > participating in a computer collection, mostly repairing > stuff and bringing it back to life. We have numerous old apples, vaxes, > decstations, suns, next etc and some > real weird old stuff ;) > > Lately we discovered a DG nova standing in a dark corner of a storeroom. > We have absolutely no peripherals, just > the bare machine. It has 2 CPU boards, a general IO card, 2 Memory > boards and some unknown third party controller. > > The Machine as it sits now has 2-3 problems (at least): > > 1: Somehow the "desposit next" switch does not work as expected by not > incrementing the adress sometimes. Doing a deposit-examine next-deposit > works, so thats a minor problem. > > 2: Simple programs run fine in single step mode. Press RUN and the > machine seems to hang. You can not even STOP anymore, you have > to reset the machine. Annonying, but to test the simple stuff single > stepping also works.... > > 3: The biggest problem is: The ACs have numerous bits stuck on 1. It is > the same bit pattern for all ACs. We can store and > deposit the non-stuck bits, but all others remain a 1. With this > behaviour its really really hard to write any meaningful asm to > test the machine ;) > > Please see the attached Link for pictures of the machine and the > bit-pattern of the AC. Since the AC Deposit works as expected > and the error shows only when examining we are positive that the error > is not in the AC Registers itself but somewhere where > the switch location is actually shifted into the AC....or something like > that. We are also struggling a bit to get all the documentation > in a meaningful relation. So if you have any pointers on what to do or > check, please chime in. > > If the machine gets back to life i have plans on emulating a storage > device to run one of the available os-es. Should be doable with > a microcontroller and some logic glue.....but it looks like a long way ;) > > See actual pictures of the machine here > http://bigalpha.ath.cx/nova/pics/ori/index.html > where you can also see the bit Pattern of the AC. > > I kinda wonder why its > 1 11X 111 X11 1X1 11X > I guess this should point us nearer to the point of failure. > > > best regards > Alex From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 15 11:47:24 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 09:47:24 -0800 Subject: PCB etchants, was 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <511DF12F.8010406@neurotica.com> References: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <511DEE57.5010007@sydex.com> <511DF12F.8010406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <511E74AC.9090005@sydex.com> On 02/15/2013 12:26 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've definitely heard of copper sulfate as an etchant. I've never > used it, though, and don't know anything about it. Definitely heard of > it in that context though. Then you're one up on me. I've used it in electroplating (pretty blue crystals) and in etching zinc and tin, but not for etching PCBs. You can use it as a source of copper ions to prepare a solution (usually using HCl) with the [CuCl4]2? complex, which is an excellent PCB etchant. But many copper salts--even elemental copper--can do that. But I can put a PCB in a solution of CuSO4 and nothing remarkable will happen. Here's a nice video showing the chemistry of 10 PCB etchants. Some are really nasty and you'd have to be out of your mind to use them. But note that CuSO4 only occurs as a source of copper ions in the presence of an acid or as a reaction product, not the etchant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4tWEse2rDI --Chuck From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Feb 15 11:53:26 2013 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 12:53:26 -0500 Subject: WANTED: TM8E magtape controller for Omnibus In-Reply-To: <511D5C34.6060703@hachti.de> References: <511D5C34.6060703@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20130215175326.GA28353@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:50:44PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Is there anybody out there who > 1. owns a TM8E magtape controller? Yes. > and > 2. who can imagine to give it away? > No. I got mine from "thom restivo" back in 2004. At the time he said he had more boards. Found a TU10 to go with it in 2007. http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 14:31:28 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 12:31:28 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 15 15:16:45 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:16:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, mc68010 wrote: > This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 > Damn. That's cool. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Feb 15 15:40:02 2013 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 15:40:02 -0600 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511EAB32.5090804@ubanproductions.com> I wonder if it is/was a working drive? On 2/15/13 2:31 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 15 15:53:51 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:53:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511EAB32.5090804@ubanproductions.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> <511EAB32.5090804@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20130215135202.H96333@shell.lmi.net> > > This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Tom Uban wrote: > I wonder if it is/was a working drive? D'ya mean that because it wasn't likely to get installed, that they might have tried to slip by a dead one? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 15 16:18:24 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:18:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130214191036.H76589@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 14, 13 07:12:06 pm Message-ID: [PCjr keyboard] > it is so trivial to just connect the RJ11 and run them tethered. FGred, I am amazed at you... It's a 6p6c conenctor. It's not an RJ anything. It does not carry telephone lines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 15 16:24:22 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:24:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3B2 floppies In-Reply-To: <1360903906.41038.BPMail_high_carrier@web140805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 14, 13 08:51:46 pm Message-ID: > > > > ------------------------------ > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 2:44 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: > > >If you don't wantto etch your own PCB, it's relatively hard to get a male > >card edge conenctor > > you can accomplish rudimentary masking and etching by using cheap > packing tape. Encapsulate the board then slice and remove portions of I know how to do it, Iv'e made plenty of boards over the years. Iv'e never heard of using packing tape as the resist. I prefer the UV-sensitive boards. For coarse-ish tracks (one track between IC pins mazimum), you can get wauy with laser printing the artwork onto paper (not film). > the board you'd like to etch away. No copper sulfate IIRC (the etchant) I would love to know thew chemistry that allows coper sulpahte to disolve copper. > won't eat your fingers. Just DON'T pour it down the drain, protect your > clothes and be careful of animals. Ferric chorlide (the common etchant) does put staisn on your fingers. No lasting damage (I hope), but not too pleasant. > > (and if you do etch your own board, it's non-trivial > >to gold plate it). > > Well plating can be accomplished in the home shop but where are you > going to get the gold. Wait for a meteorite? Gold (metal) is not hard to get, if you can afford it. But you don't want the metal for thism, you want a soluable salt. And for some reason, the one that works best is the cyanide. Not suprisingly that is very toxic and thus impossible to obtain > But it brings up an interesting idea of mine. Couldn't you reverse > plate the gold right off of pins and whatnot? No nasty chemicals, no > mess, no fuss. How are you proposing to do this? What electrolyte? > > it is, however, quite easy to get header plugs of > >various sizes, including ones with wire-wrap pins. > > > >If I ahd to make such an adapter in a hurry (== no time to make the > >PCB)_, I'd probably put 34 pin and 50 pin wire-wrap headers ont a bit of > >square pad board, wire-wrap approrpraity, and fit one of said adapterso > >nto the 34 pin header to conenct to the edge connector on the cable. > > If I'm following you, couldn't you cut the card edge from a busted > drive, solder that to an appropriate board (I would have to assume the > spacing is identical), solder a header connector, preferably right > angle, to the opposite side of the board, then solder jumper wires > where appropriate? Yes, you could./ But 'busted drives' roudn here genrally get repaired... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 15 16:09:56 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:09:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360881597.25024.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 14, 13 02:39:57 pm Message-ID: > Didn't Acorn dabble in pcs? What about Research Machines? Fairly robust, no? Not AFAIK. There was an 80188 (or was it a 80186) second processor for the BBC Master series. There was also a thirrd party thing caleld a Torch Graudate that was basically a PC/XT clone that used a BBC micro for keyboard and video display. AFAIK it was PC ocmpltibel at the bIOS level, but not at the hardware level. Did the Acorn 80286 second processor ever make it into production? There exist scheamtics for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 15 16:12:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:12:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <4F06AECC81EF437F911C1498F093E08F@hd2600xt6a04f7> from "TeoZ" at Feb 14, 13 06:20:53 pm Message-ID: > > The Tandy 1000 series WAS a clone of the PC Jr, why would you expect 100% > 5150 compatibility? Tandy didn't have DMA unless you got the special RAM > upgrades, and they made sure to have all the ports different to sell you > Tandy cables (special joystick ports, serial ports of the wrong gender, > special printer ports, even the floppy drives were different then anything I thought the Tandy 1000s were designed to use existing _Tandy_ cables and joysticks. That is, the joysticks were the smae as for the CoCo, the printer port was a 34 pin card edge (so as to use M1/3/4 cables) and so on. > on a clone because the power was in the data cable). The very last 1000's > ended up with VGA I think. Nobody with a clue would have purchased these > new. Tandy and Amstrad machines had one accessory available that AFAIK was not avaialbe for other clones (it was avaialbe for IB< 5150/5160/5170 machines). This accessory is rather important to me. I refer, of course, to a schematic diagram. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 15 17:56:42 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 15:56:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130215154810.F96333@shell.lmi.net> > [PCjr keyboard] > > it is so trivial to just connect the RJ11 and run them tethered. On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > FGred, Like the "720K" Teac 5.25, it is 'F'. 'FG' is the combination "720K" AND "1.2M" model and 'G' is the "1.2M. I have no idea what the difference is between the 'FG' and the 'G', but moth models existed. > I am amazed at you... It's a 6p6c conenctor. It's not an RJ > anything. It does not carry telephone lines. Sorry about the wrong info on the cable. Un-refreshed dynamic wet-ware memory. I guess that it's about 20 years of memory decay. Nevertheless my point is still that they will work on a cable, and run of the computer's power instead of the batteries Cordless components tend to get lost in schools disunirregardless of whether they have any value to thieves. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 15 19:12:39 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:12:39 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511EDD07.1070901@gmail.com> On 02/15/2013 04:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Didn't Acorn dabble in pcs? What about Research Machines? Fairly robust, no? > > Not AFAIK. There was an 80188 (or was it a 80186) second processor for > the BBC Master series. '186. > There was also a thirrd party thing caleld a Torch > Graudate that was basically a PC/XT clone that used a BBC micro for > keyboard and video display. AFAIK it was PC ocmpltibel at the bIOS level, > but not at the hardware level. There probably were numerous quirks - although it did have a couple of 8-bit ISA slots. > Did the Acorn 80286 second processor ever make it into production? There > exist scheamtics for it. I have a complete processor board, so there was certainly at least one - I'm not sure if that qualifies as 'production', though! (I would define it as "production quality" however, suggesting that Acorn did made a small handful of them at the very least) My board is non-functional and actually came with M512 ROMs fitted; it's unknown if those were added by someone at some stage because the original ROMs were missing and they were hoping that this would magically fix it, or if it really is capable of running the M512 copro's firmware without modification. I didn't know that the schematics were "out there" - I got partway through reverse-engineering them before I moved to the US, so it's on the to-do list to finish them one day and try and make my board do something when I eventually get it shipped over here (but having proper Acorn schematics would probably be better!) I know of at least one person who has some bare / partially-populated PCBs, but my board's the only complete one that I know of (aside from the possible ROM issue). cheers Jules From hachti at hachti.de Fri Feb 15 20:00:14 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 03:00:14 +0100 Subject: WANTED: TM8E magtape controller for Omnibus In-Reply-To: <20130215175326.GA28353@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <511D5C34.6060703@hachti.de> <20130215175326.GA28353@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <511EE82E.2010605@hachti.de> Hi David, On 15.02.2013 18:53, David Gesswein wrote: > On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:50:44PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Is there anybody out there who >> 1. owns a TM8E magtape controller? > Yes. Nice. > I got mine from "thom restivo" > back in 2004. At the time he said he had more boards. Found a TU10 to go > with it in 2007. > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml Thank you, I'll ask him! Regards Philipp From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 22:05:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:05:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360987548.80129.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 5:12 PM PST Jules Richardson wrote: >I know of at least one person who has some bare / partially-populated PCBs, but my board's the only complete one that I know of (aside from the possible ROM issue). are they willing to part with 1+? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 22:26:47 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:26:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360988807.39094.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Tandy and Amstrad machines had one accessory available that AFAIK was not >avaialbe for other clones (it was avaialbe for IB< 5150/5160/5170 >machines). This accessory is rather important to me. I refer, of course, >to a schematic diagram. > >-tony The Tandy 2000 tech manual even included circuit board artwork. IINM IBM's extensive documentation didn't have that. They did include rom sources though, which Tandy didn't. I've seen a fair amount of tech manuals. It's hard to beat these 2. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 15 22:41:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:41:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1360989679.52106.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 8:05 PM PST Chris Tofu wrote: > > >------------------------------ >On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 5:12 PM PST Jules Richardson wrote: > >>I know of at least one person who has some bare / partially-populated PCBs, but my board's the only complete one that I know of (aside from the possible ROM issue). > > are they willing to part with 1+? And which Acorn are we talking about? Apparently Acorn had a relationship to BBC. I'm looking for an Archimedes by the way, they're just so darn expensive last I checked. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 16 00:13:21 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:13:21 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <20130215135202.H96333@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com>, <511EAB32.5090804@ubanproductions.com>, <20130215135202.H96333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: As I recall, the 900 series had a different connectorthan the 50 pin that the 800's had.Dwight > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 13:53:51 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy > > > > This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 > On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Tom Uban wrote: > > I wonder if it is/was a working drive? > > D'ya mean that because it wasn't likely to get installed, that they might > have tried to slip by a dead one? > > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 00:13:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:13:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microvax 80186 board Message-ID: <1360995233.5966.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I pulled all the cards out of my rolling dinosaur. One small card with 2 sets of fingers sports an 80186. What is this card? I won't have a better picture until Monday if anyone was dying to see it. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 00:48:08 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 22:48:08 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <20130215135202.H96333@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> <511EAB32.5090804@ubanproductions.com> <20130215135202.H96333@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511F2BA8.9020008@gmail.com> On 2/15/2013 1:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 > On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Tom Uban wrote: >> I wonder if it is/was a working drive? > D'ya mean that because it wasn't likely to get installed, that they might > have tried to slip by a dead one? > > > What bothers me more is it upside down. I feel like I might be becoming OCD every time I look at the picture. I know the other side is kind of boring but, still I wish they had flipped it over. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 16 01:35:10 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 23:35:10 -0800 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <511F36AE.9040604@sydex.com> On 02/15/2013 02:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Tandy and Amstrad machines had one accessory available that AFAIK was not > avaialbe for other clones (it was avaialbe for IB< 5150/5160/5170 > machines). This accessory is rather important to me. I refer, of course, > to a schematic diagram. There were many manufacturers, mostly forgotten in the early days of the IBM PC. Most didn't anticipate the wide acceptance of the PC platform. Personally, I was sorely disappointed that the 5150 didn't use a 68K CPU, like the lab computer that was annouced just weeks before. That might have been a game-changer. Corona PC? MAD Intelligent Systems PC? Seequa Chameleon? Visual (yes, they made a PC)? The list is very long. We tend to remember only the brands that managed to hang on for a while, such as Tandy, Packard-Bell, Leading Edge. etc. Many never made it past the 8086 stage. --CHuck From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 04:23:56 2013 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:23:56 +0100 Subject: Microvax 80186 board In-Reply-To: <1360995233.5966.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360995233.5966.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Saturday, February 16, 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I pulled all the cards out of my rolling dinosaur. One small card with 2 sets of fingers sports an 80186. What is this card? I won't have a better picture until Monday if anyone was dying to see it. > Probably a TQK50 tape controller. From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 16 04:31:49 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:31:49 +0100 Subject: Microvax 80186 board In-Reply-To: <1360995233.5966.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360995233.5966.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130216103149.GA39917@beast.freibergnet.de> Chris Tofu wrote: > > I pulled all the cards out of my rolling dinosaur. One small card with 2 sets of fingers sports an 80186. What is this card? I won't have a better picture until Monday if anyone was dying to see it. ..M7546 TK50 Controller? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 11:10:13 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:10:13 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360989679.52106.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360989679.52106.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <511FBD75.2010900@gmail.com> On 02/15/2013 10:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 8:05 PM PST Chris > Tofu wrote: > >> >> >> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 5:12 PM PST Jules >> Richardson wrote: >> >>> I know of at least one person who has some bare / >>> partially-populated PCBs, but my board's the only complete one that >>> I know of (aside from the possible ROM issue). >> >> are they willing to part with 1+? > > And which Acorn are we talking about? The ABC 300/310 - a machine with an integral (Cub) monitor, and a BBC B+ board running the I/O and acting as the host for the 80286 second processor. They were (supposedly, given that it's not certain that any were ever sold) part of Acorn's ill-fated "Business computer" range[1], which didn't exactly meet with success - the styling was pretty ugly, and by the time they were made running all the I/O via 8-bit BBC hardware was just too slow in comparison to other machines on the market. [1] other systems included the ABC 200/210 (the "Cambridge Workstation") with a 32016 second processor, the ABC 100/110 with a Z80 second processor, the Econet Terminal, and the Personal Assistant. > I'm looking for an Archimedes by the way, they're just so darn > expensive last I checked. I got rid of all my RISC-era[1] Acorn stuff when I moved to the US - it never was quite as much fun to screw around with as the older 8-bit Acorns. I kind of wish I'd kept some of it now, though... [1] although I do still have an ARM-1 co-processor for a BBC, and a couple of ARM-1 ISA cards, and a Simtec Hydra multi-processor board set (but no machine to run it in, doh!) cheers Jules From tom94022 at comcast.net Sat Feb 16 11:45:33 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:45:33 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is also not exactly the one millionth - I'm pretty sure the millionth SA800 went to the Smithsonian and the next one is in the office of Dave MacDougal, the owner of WeirdStuff, Sunnyvale CA, http://www.weirdstuff.com/. Dave closed the doors of Shugart in 1985-6. Maybe Shugart Corp. gave the one million minus one to Wang One interesting anomaly is the SA900 series was early-on replaced by the SA800 series, although Wang may have bought them into the 1980s. So the SA901 label is probably a publicity stunt. Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 [mailto:mc68010 at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 12:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy > > This is something you don't see every day. ebay item 181081604203 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/181081604203 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 16 11:59:12 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 09:59:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Tom Gardner wrote: > It is also not exactly the one millionth - I'm pretty sure the millionth > SA800 went to the Smithsonian and the next one is in the office of Dave > MacDougal, the owner of WeirdStuff, Sunnyvale CA, > http://www.weirdstuff.com/. Dave closed the doors of Shugart in 1985-6. > Maybe Shugart Corp. gave the one million minus one to Wang Naah. There are NOT THREE one-millionth of the same drive. The eBay one is one-millionth SA901? The Smithsonian one is one-millionth SA-800? The Weird Stuff one is One-million-and-oneth? SA-800? > One interesting anomaly is the SA900 series was early-on replaced by the > SA800 series, although Wang may have bought them into the 1980s. So the > SA901 label is probably a publicity stunt. Who has the one-millionth SA850? (I'd rather have double-sided!) From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 12:08:03 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 10:08:03 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <511FCB03.6040307@gmail.com> On 2/16/2013 9:59 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Naah. There are NOT THREE one-millionth of the same drive. The eBay > one is one-millionth SA901? The Smithsonian one is one-millionth > SA-800? The Weird Stuff one is One-million-and-oneth? SA-800? >> One interesting anomaly is the SA900 series was early-on replaced by the >> SA800 series, although Wang may have bought them into the 1980s. So the >> SA901 label is probably a publicity stunt. > Who has the one-millionth SA850? (I'd rather have double-sided!) > > Makes sense to me. People usually don't run serial numbers sequentially across different models. The 1,000,000 SA601 would seem right by the label. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 12:09:34 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 10:09:34 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511FCB03.6040307@gmail.com> References: <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com> <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net> <511FCB03.6040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511FCB5E.5050003@gmail.com> On 2/16/2013 10:08 AM, mc68010 wrote: > > Makes sense to me. People usually don't run serial numbers > sequentially across different models. The 1,000,000 SA601 would seem > right by the label. SA901 that is. From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Feb 16 12:37:10 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:37:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) Message-ID: <8CFDA8BC384C809-12C4-25D7A@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> Someone pointed out that the 3B2's disk may still be salvageable. I'm not sure about that, but I don't have a lot of experience with the older drives. It's probably the original disk, as it has AT&T stickers on it. Plugged into multiple computers and external drive enclosures it spins up, head load click, then spins down. I've tried reseating connectors and checking jumpers, no change. I don't know what the jumper on the bottom side of the lowest PCB near the SCSI connector does, and there are two empty DIP sockets on the bottom of the drive that could possbly be a part of the problem. I haven't taken a scope to it to trace out the signals yet and see if an amp died. From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Feb 16 12:42:27 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. Message-ID: <8CFDA8C81004B63-12C4-25EE8@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> There was a question about what manufacturer made it. It looks like a generic Taiwanese whitebox, sticker on the back says "Mega 4000", sticker on the front says "AT Light" (+1 for them getting the spelling right instead of using "Lite", -100 for their marketing department appearing to have no idea what "AT" means). I guess I'll hang onto it for a bit, anyway. I have a SCSI card that will work in it and an old VGA card. From saquinn624 at aol.com Sat Feb 16 12:54:10 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:54:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gold (WAS Re; 3B2 floppies) Message-ID: <8CFDA8E22F6A939-12C4-26506@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> On Thu, 14 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Well plating can be accomplished in the home shop but where are you > going to get the gold. Wait for a meteorite? > But it brings up an interesting idea of mine. Couldn't you reverse > plate the gold right off of pins and whatnot? No nasty chemicals, no > mess, no fuss. Gold plating usually uses cyanide compounds, which many people consider "nasty chemicals" (certainly chemicals that one needs to work with carefully, but pretty common for both plating and case hardening). If you're using cyanide anyway, you might as well go ahead and use a modified MacArthur-Forrest process and not bother with the electricity. Pour your gold-containing objects in a dilute cyanide solution, recover the gold by either electrowinning or single-replacement with zinc. At the end of the day either way is a lot of work for little gold. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 13:05:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:05:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: reasons to keep a Turbo XT clone. In-Reply-To: <8CFDA8C81004B63-12C4-25EE8@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFDA8C81004B63-12C4-25EE8@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1361041553.97685.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Scott Quinn "There was a question about what manufacturer made it. It looks like a generic Taiwanese whitebox, sticker on the back says "Mega 4000", sticker on the front says "AT Light" (+1 for them getting the spelling right instead of using "Lite", -100 for their marketing department appearing to have no idea what "AT" means)." C: What does "AT Light" supposed to signify? The dawning of the Taiwanese junk box era? God saw the light and it was good. I'm not so sure he felt the same way about cheap Taiwanese clones. But I never asked him. ???? Even though I'm illiterate, it wood seem they're were trying to say _AT_ model, a bit _lite_ in the loafers. In other werds not a real AT. Like my AT Junior at home. It's just an XT, which could be viewed as a lesser AT. The American company chose the Junior surname, the Taiwanese dubbed their model Lite. They got it all wrong w/regards to spelling. +10,000 for the marketing department. They got away w/it, whereas the Gringo company didn't. "I guess I'll hang onto it for a bit, anyway. I have a SCSI card that will work in it and an old VGA card." C: And those 2 cards make it more useful? How? You going to plug a scsi scanner or hard drive in? You may be able to use a zip drive if my information is correct. VGA cards? What's that going to do for your AT-Light? Play age old games? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 13:08:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gold (WAS Re; 3B2 floppies) In-Reply-To: <8CFDA8E22F6A939-12C4-26506@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFDA8E22F6A939-12C4-26506@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1361041684.76656.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: Scott Quinn Gold plating usually uses cyanide compounds, which many people consider "nasty chemicals"? (certainly chemicals that one needs to work with carefully, but pretty common for both plating and case hardening). If you're using cyanide anyway, you might as well go ahead and use a modified MacArthur-Forrest process and not bother with the electricity. Pour your gold-containing objects in a dilute cyanide solution, recover the gold by either electrowinning or single-replacement with zinc. At the end of the day either way is a lot of work for little gold. C: 3-400$ worth according to my calculations. Which could be off. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Feb 16 13:24:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:24:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <511F36AE.9040604@sydex.com> References: <511F36AE.9040604@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/15/2013 02:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tandy and Amstrad machines had one accessory available that AFAIK was not >> avaialbe for other clones (it was avaialbe for IB< 5150/5160/5170 >> machines). This accessory is rather important to me. I refer, of course, >> to a schematic diagram. > > There were many manufacturers, mostly forgotten in the early days of the IBM > PC. Most didn't anticipate the wide acceptance of the PC platform. > Personally, I was sorely disappointed that the 5150 didn't use a 68K CPU, > like the lab computer that was annouced just weeks before. That might have > been a game-changer. > > Corona PC? MAD Intelligent Systems PC? Seequa Chameleon? Visual (yes, they > made a PC)? The list is very long. We tend to remember only the brands that > managed to hang on for a while, such as Tandy, Packard-Bell, Leading Edge. > etc. Many never made it past the 8086 stage. > I had a Sumicom System 330 for a short while back in the late 80's. It wasn't 100% compatible, but it was a nice machine for what it was. The thing I recall most about it was the silk screen on the boards - they used yellow instead of white. Pretty neat looking. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 13:31:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:31:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: does anyone need a Leaguer Internation mouse for shipping? Message-ID: <1361043099.24243.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Sun related equipment IINM. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 13:34:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:34:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? Message-ID: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> it's bleachy. Turns out it was left outside in a box w/a bunch of cables, and rain water bleaches things better then most other substances. Works fine. Tested it on the A600 I sold recently. Cable is a little dirty too. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 13:36:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:36:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <511F36AE.9040604@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1361043405.30750.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> From: geneb I had a Sumicom System 330 for a short while back in the late 80's.? It wasn't 100% compatible, but it was a nice machine for what it was.? The thing I recall most about it was the silk screen on the boards - they used yellow instead of white.? Pretty neat looking. g. C: Wow thanks for sharing. Compatibility means nothing as long as it has that characteristic. Love that yellow. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 13:37:29 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 11:37:29 -0800 Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) In-Reply-To: <8CFDA8BC384C809-12C4-25D7A@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFDA8BC384C809-12C4-25D7A@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 10:37 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > I don't know what the jumper on the bottom side of the lowest PCB near > the SCSI connector does, and there are two empty DIP sockets on the > bottom of the drive that could possibly be a part of the problem. (view with fixed width font) SEAGATE ST4350N/ST4376N JUMPER SETTING Jumper Setting ============== Connects CHASIS ground to ground lug ------------+ Connects SIGNAL ground to ground lug ----------+ | Drive Select ID's -----+ | | Motor Start Option enable -+ | G G Parity Check Option enable+ | +-+-+ +1+2+ +P M 4 2 1+|o|o| POWER |o o o o o||o|o| +---------+ |o o o o o|+-+-+ | O O O O | ------------------------------------+---------+--------+---------PWA- -+------+---+-------------------------+--------+--------+--Data-PWA-- 1------+ |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX| +-+ 1--------+ Terminator +------------------------1+ |o| o Terminator INTERFACE |o+-o +++ TERMPWR (+5v) from drive (vertical) -----+ TERMPWR from the Bus (lower horizontal) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 13:50:59 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:50:59 -0600 Subject: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? In-Reply-To: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i know someone looking for that and a keyboard on aufiokarma On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > it's bleachy. Turns out it was left outside in a box w/a bunch of cables, > and rain water bleaches things better then most other substances. Works > fine. Tested it on the A600 I sold recently. Cable is a little dirty too. > From slandon110 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 14:09:34 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:09:34 -0500 Subject: Full inventory of my storage unit- $30 dollars an item, Get it while its cheap Message-ID: <511FE77E.5020909@gmail.com> I finally got an inventory up of what I have. Heres the price $30 bucks an item plus shipping, no matter what it is. Inventory as of 2-16-13 10 Apple Monitor // 4 Apple Monitor /// 32 Cosmetically damaged IIGS Monitors 10 Nice GS Monitors 8 Mac IIcx 2 Mac IIci 3 Mac IIsi 5 Imagewriter I 3 Beige G3 Minitowers 2 G3 Desktops 5 PowerMac 6100s 2 Centris 610 1 Quadra 610 1 Performa 6110 1 Performa 6116 1 PowerMac 7300/180 1 PowerMac 7500/100 2 PowerMac 7100/66 1 Performa 600 1 Macintosh IIVX 4 Original LCs 3 LC 575s 1 SE FDHD 2 SE 800k 5 Mac Pluses 1 Molar Mac From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Feb 16 14:16:19 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:16:19 +0000 Subject: Cyclone CVME961 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F7794A@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Here's an odd one... Anyone here ever seen, heard of, or have a Cyclone CVME961 board? Thanks in advance! -Ben From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 14:39:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:39:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? In-Reply-To: References: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1361047150.71438.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ok. I'm in New Jersey though (aufiokarma sounds foreign, unless you typoed and it should say audiokarma). ________________________________ From: Adrian Stoness To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:50 PM Subject: Re: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? i know someone looking for that and a keyboard? on aufiokarma On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > it's bleachy. Turns out it was left outside in a box w/a bunch of cables, > and rain water bleaches things better then most other substances. Works > fine. Tested it on the A600 I sold recently. Cable is a little dirty too. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 14:47:10 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 12:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: no one wants to buy my Vicki??? 100$ + shipping Message-ID: <1361047630.83346.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> very yellowed, but if the screen tells indicates anything, it was hardly used. Works nice. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 14:36:06 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:36:06 -0200 Subject: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? References: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45A4FA9DCC7345419495D5E2184ADF3B@tababook> I'm still looking for an A2000 keyboard or the keys/coils... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:50 PM Subject: Re: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? >i know someone looking for that and a keyboard on aufiokarma > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Chris Tofu > wrote: > >> it's bleachy. Turns out it was left outside in a box w/a bunch of cables, >> and rain water bleaches things better then most other substances. Works >> fine. Tested it on the A600 I sold recently. Cable is a little dirty too. >> From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 14:52:59 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 14:52:59 -0600 Subject: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? In-Reply-To: <1361047150.71438.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361043259.37412.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1361047150.71438.YahooMailNeo@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: woops i typoed that sorry yes audiokarma i'll msg him your email and that you have a mouse On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok. I'm in New Jersey though (aufiokarma sounds foreign, unless you typoed > and it should say audiokarma). > > > > ________________________________ > From: Adrian Stoness > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: does anyone need an Amiga mouse for 10$ + shipping? > > i know someone looking for that and a keyboard on aufiokarma > > > On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Chris Tofu >wrote: > > > it's bleachy. Turns out it was left outside in a box w/a bunch of cables, > > and rain water bleaches things better then most other substances. Works > > fine. Tested it on the A600 I sold recently. Cable is a little dirty too. > > > From jon at jonworld.com Sat Feb 16 15:11:53 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:11:53 -0500 Subject: Full inventory of my storage unit- $30 dollars an item, Get it while its cheap In-Reply-To: <511FE77E.5020909@gmail.com> References: <511FE77E.5020909@gmail.com> Message-ID: Where are you???? Sent from my mobile device. Please pardon any brevity. On Feb 16, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Steven Landon wrote: > I finally got an inventory up of what I have. Heres the price $30 bucks an item plus shipping, no matter what it is. > > Inventory as of 2-16-13 > > 10 Apple Monitor // > 4 Apple Monitor /// > 32 Cosmetically damaged IIGS Monitors > 10 Nice GS Monitors > 8 Mac IIcx > 2 Mac IIci > 3 Mac IIsi > 5 Imagewriter I > 3 Beige G3 Minitowers > 2 G3 Desktops > 5 PowerMac 6100s > 2 Centris 610 > 1 Quadra 610 > 1 Performa 6110 > 1 Performa 6116 > 1 PowerMac 7300/180 > 1 PowerMac 7500/100 > 2 PowerMac 7100/66 > 1 Performa 600 > 1 Macintosh IIVX > 4 Original LCs > 3 LC 575s > 1 SE FDHD > 2 SE 800k > 5 Mac Pluses > 1 Molar Mac > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Feb 16 15:12:38 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:12:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1361043405.30750.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <511F36AE.9040604@sydex.com> <1361043405.30750.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: geneb > > I had a Sumicom System 330 for a short while back in the late 80's.? It > wasn't 100% compatible, but it was a nice machine for what it was.? The > thing I recall most about it was the silk screen on the boards - they > used yellow instead of white.? Pretty neat looking. > > g. > > C: Wow thanks for sharing. Compatibility means nothing as long as it has > that characteristic. Love that yellow. > Holy shit! It's a talking plant! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 15:15:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 13:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: no one wants to buy my Vicki??? 100$ + shipping In-Reply-To: <1361047630.83346.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361047630.83346.YahooMailNeo@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1361049348.29262.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> scratch that I'm not selling ________________________________ From: Chris Tofu To: cc Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 3:47 PM Subject: no one wants to buy my Vicki??? 100$ + shipping very yellowed, but if the screen tells indicates anything, it was hardly used. Works nice. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 17:09:58 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:09:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Holy shit! It's a talking plant! > >g. I keep telling you people I haven't smoked plants in decades if there seems to be a residual smell it's just probably the oregano I had my pizza Go back to pretending you're Tom Cruise flyboy. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 16 17:22:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:22:02 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> On 02/16/2013 06:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Holy shit! It's a talking plant! > > I keep telling you people I haven't smoked plants in decades if there seems to be a residual smell it's just probably the oregano I had my pizza > Go back to pretending you're Tom Cruise flyboy. [off-list] Dude. Gene IS Tom Cruise. He uses an alias here for the obvious reason. Watch yourself! -Dave *snicker* -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Feb 16 17:30:23 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:30:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> References: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/16/2013 06:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> Holy shit! It's a talking plant! >> >> I keep telling you people I haven't smoked plants in decades if there seems to be a residual smell it's just probably the oregano I had my pizza >> Go back to pretending you're Tom Cruise flyboy. > > [off-list] > > Dude. Gene IS Tom Cruise. He uses an alias here for the obvious > reason. Watch yourself! > > -Dave > Don't make me open up a can of Thetans on you. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 17:34:41 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 15:34:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361057681.81971.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 3:22 PM PST Dave McGuire wrote: > [off-list] Uh... > Dude. Gene IS Tom Cruise. He uses an alias here for the obvious >reason. Watch yourself! O great. First d*****bag atheists now a hitman from the church of Scientology to deal with! > -Dave > > *snicker* No thanks I'm cooking dinner now (it may be my last!). I don't want to spoil it From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 16 17:39:15 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:39:15 -0500 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <512018A3.6060808@neurotica.com> On 02/16/2013 06:30 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> Holy shit! It's a talking plant! >>> >>> I keep telling you people I haven't smoked plants in decades if >>> there seems to be a residual smell it's just probably the oregano I >>> had my pizza >>> Go back to pretending you're Tom Cruise flyboy. >> >> [off-list] >> >> Dude. Gene IS Tom Cruise. He uses an alias here for the obvious >> reason. Watch yourself! > > Don't make me open up a can of Thetans on you. *pssshht!* Oh shit! H-bombs! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 16 17:03:58 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:03:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <20130215154810.F96333@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 15, 13 03:56:42 pm Message-ID: > > FGred, > > Like the "720K" Teac 5.25, it is 'F'. 'FG' is the combination "720K" AND > "1.2M" model and 'G' is the "1.2M. I have no idea what the difference is > between the 'FG' and the 'G', but moth models existed. I think the FG can run at both 300rpm and 360rpm, the G is only 360 rpm. > > > I am amazed at you... It's a 6p6c conenctor. It's not an RJ > > anything. It does not carry telephone lines. > > Sorry about the wrong info on the cable. Un-refreshed dynamic wet-ware > memory. I guess that it's about 20 years of memory decay. Sorry about the way I phrased that. I had had some very bad news earlier i nthe day and was even less myself than usual. > Nevertheless my point is still that they will work on a cable, and run of > the computer's power instead of the batteries Yes. I _think_ the cable diagram is in the Techref. For some reason the techref I boguht doees not include the keyboard schematic (it includes just about ewverything else, even the 5152 (Epson) printer and 5153 CGA monitor schematics). It wasn't hard to reverse-engineer the keybaord circuit though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 16 17:20:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:20:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360988807.39094.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 15, 13 08:26:47 pm Message-ID: > > > >Tandy and Amstrad machines had one accessory available that AFAIK was not > >avaialbe for other clones (it was avaialbe for IB< 5150/5160/5170 > >machines). This accessory is rather important to me. I refer, of course, > >to a schematic diagram. > > > >-tony > > The Tandy 2000 tech manual even included circuit board artwork. IINM IBM's extensive documentation didn't have that. They did include rom sources though, which Tandy didn't. That is unsual. > I've seen a fair amount of tech manuals. It's hard to beat these 2. AFAIK the IBM manuals were the only ones to include complete BIOS ROM source. Certainyl Tandy and Amstrad didn't. HP producded reasoanble Techrefs for their PC-incompatibles, at least the HP150, 150-II and Portable+ (I have all of them). Schematics, yes, ROM source, no. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 18:45:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:45:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension keyboard question Message-ID: <1361061927.23040.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I won it. It resembles a Keytronic 5150, but has something like an rj11 (don't ask me how many conductors). Is it an IBM/K* internally? I guess I should have asked before I bid/bin. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Feb 16 18:59:43 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 16:59:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <512018A3.6060808@neurotica.com> References: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> <512018A3.6060808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/16/2013 06:30 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>> Holy shit! It's a talking plant! >>>> >>>> I keep telling you people I haven't smoked plants in decades if >>>> there seems to be a residual smell it's just probably the oregano I >>>> had my pizza >>>> Go back to pretending you're Tom Cruise flyboy. >>> >>> [off-list] >>> >>> Dude. Gene IS Tom Cruise. He uses an alias here for the obvious >>> reason. Watch yourself! >> >> Don't make me open up a can of Thetans on you. > > *pssshht!* > > Oh shit! H-bombs! Nah. I do happen to have a genuine can of EMP though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 19:14:43 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 23:14:43 -0200 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? References: <1361056198.79104.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5120149A.6060306@neurotica.com> <512018A3.6060808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >>> Don't make me open up a can of Thetans on you. >> Oh shit! H-bombs! > Nah. I do happen to have a genuine can of EMP though. :) I see a global thermonuclear war coming... From bobvines00 at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 19:28:14 2013 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:28:14 -0500 Subject: WANTED: TM8E magtape controller for Omnibus Message-ID: > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 03:00:14 +0100 > From: Philipp Hachtmann > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: WANTED: TM8E magtape controller for Omnibus > Message-ID: <511EE82E.2010605 at hachti.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hi David, > > On 15.02.2013 18:53, David Gesswein wrote: >> On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:50:44PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >>> Is there anybody out there who >>> 1. owns a TM8E magtape controller? >> Yes. > Nice. > >> I got mine from "thom restivo" >> back in 2004. At the time he said he had more boards. Found a TU10 to go >> with it in 2007. >> http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml > Thank you, I'll ask him! > > Regards > > Philipp > I'm afraid that Thom went out of business quite a few years ago and sold his warehouse full of DEC equipment. I never found out who bought him out. I enjoyed visiting and crawling through the place though. Bob From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 19:41:18 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:41:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361065278.23979.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 5:14 PM PST Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Don't make me open up a can of Thetans on you. >> Oh shit! H-bombs! >> Nah. I do happen to have a genuine can of EMP though. :) > > I see a global thermonuclear war coming... Really? I was just opening the garage door wondering where I put my hip boots and shovel. And gas mask. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 16 19:44:56 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:44:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension keyboard question In-Reply-To: <1361061927.23040.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361061927.23040.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130216174437.I22642@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I won it. It resembles a Keytronic 5150, but has something like an rj11 > (don't ask me how many conductors). Is it an IBM/K* internally? No. > I guess > I should have asked before I bid/bin. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 16 19:51:33 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:51:33 -0800 Subject: Cyclone CVME961 In-Reply-To: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F7794A@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F7794A@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Message-ID: <512037A5.4050607@sydex.com> On 02/16/2013 12:16 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Here's an odd one... > Anyone here ever seen, heard of, or have a Cyclone CVME961 board? > > Thanks in advance! There's a ton of information about this one on the web, it seems; even an Opencores project ISTR to duplicate it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 16 19:57:11 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 17:57:11 -0800 Subject: Silver-oxide cells lifetime Message-ID: <512038F7.4070707@sydex.com> For the third time, I've had to replace the three 357 silver-oxide cells in my HP16C calculator. That's probably very close to 15 years on average between sets--not bad. What surprised me was that one day, the thing was working nicely and the next, it was dead--no display, nothing. A voltmeter confirmed the power failure. I suspect the cells get pretty near their shelf life in this application. Is it usual for them to reach the end of their shelf life so suddenly? --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 20:16:08 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:16:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension keyboard question Message-ID: <1361067368.86427.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 5:44 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I won it. It resembles a Keytronic 5150, but has something like an rj11 >> (don't ask me how many conductors). Is it an IBM/K* internally? >No. How do you know? >> I guess >> I should have asked before I bid/bin. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 20:18:35 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Silver-oxide cells lifetime Message-ID: <1361067515.23610.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 5:57 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >For the third time, I've had to replace the three 357 silver-oxide cells in my HP16C calculator. That's probably very close to 15 years on average between sets--not bad. You make me wish I had a *real* HP calc :( From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 20:30:43 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:30:43 +1100 Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter In-Reply-To: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1341461486.2055.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but > there is noticeable screen burn even when off. I have some disks, and > the 8" drive cabinet. did someone end up taking this off you? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 20:59:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 18:59:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: any interest in an IBM Displaywriter Message-ID: <1361069959.54243.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah. Gone. ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 6:30 PM PST Nigel Williams wrote: >On Thu, Jul 5, 2012 at 2:11 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I payed 100$, and had to pick it up in Queens/Nassau. I'll take 50$ plus shipping, from 08758. It works, but >> there is noticeable screen burn even when off. I have some disks, and >> the 8" drive cabinet. > >did someone end up taking this off you? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 16 21:17:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension keyboard question In-Reply-To: <1361067368.86427.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361067368.86427.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130216191209.T23686@shell.lmi.net> > >> I won it. It resembles a Keytronic 5150, but has something like an rj11 > >> (don't ask me how many conductors). Is it an IBM/K* internally? > >No. On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > How do you know? Because in 1983, Michael Swaine (Infoworld) called the Dimension, "PC compatible". How many "workstation" terminals did you get with it? From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Feb 16 21:28:16 2013 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 03:28:16 +0000 Subject: Cyclone CVME961 In-Reply-To: <512037A5.4050607@sydex.com> References: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F7794A@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx>, <512037A5.4050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E733F7851C@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Indeed... but you don't see the things popping up on eBay for sale... -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 5:51 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cyclone CVME961 On 02/16/2013 12:16 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Here's an odd one... > Anyone here ever seen, heard of, or have a Cyclone CVME961 board? > > Thanks in advance! There's a ton of information about this one on the web, it seems; even an Opencores project ISTR to duplicate it. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 21:41:01 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:41:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Northstar Dimension keyboard question Message-ID: <1361072461.3947.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 7:17 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I won it. It resembles a Keytronic 5150, but has something like an rj11 >> > (don't ask me how many conductors). Is it an IBM/K* internally? >> >No. > >On Sat, 16 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> How do you know? > >Because in 1983, Michael Swaine (Infoworld) called the Dimension, "PC >compatible". I fail to see what that has to do with the keyboard >How many "workstation" terminals did you get with it? exactly 0. is that a bad thing? the monitors that I see pictured with it look just like an Eagles. which could mean they are 5151 compatible. which could mean it might have more aspects of compatibility then you might think. in any event it's a toy to play with and now I have a keyboard. I have discs but something tells me they're not going to be what I want them to be. I know it doesn't run MS DOS natively but it might be fun to try. it's not intended to be a product tivity tool. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 21:51:36 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 19:51:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: let's try this again... how do you build a floppy disk? Message-ID: <1361073096.6323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> start with a disk... Then what? smear on some rust? is it sprayed on? once you get the chemistry correct it doesn't sound like the application portion should be that challenging. is there an adhesive applied first? Afterwards? Where's that Jeri lady. Get her on this LOL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 22:36:57 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 15:36:57 +1100 Subject: let's try this again... how do you build a floppy disk? In-Reply-To: <1361073096.6323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361073096.6323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Then what? smear on some rust? is it sprayed on? once you get the chemistry correct it doesn't sound like the application portion should be that challenging. is there an adhesive applied first? There is a short section here about the raw materials and process: http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Floppy-Disk.html It would seem that the community might want to track down this document (book?): Aronson, Susan. Diskette Reference Manual. 3M Data Storage Products Division, 1990. I notice that this fellow references this document too: http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 16 22:44:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 20:44:51 -0800 Subject: let's try this again... how do you build a floppy disk? In-Reply-To: <1361073096.6323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361073096.6323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51206043.9090605@sydex.com> On 02/16/2013 07:51 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > start with a disk... > > Then what? smear on some rust? is it sprayed on? once you get the > chemistry correct it doesn't sound like the application portion > should be that challenging. is there an adhesive applied first? > Afterwards? Where's that Jeri lady. Get her on this LOL Well, no, you don't start with a disk. That would be silly. You start with a very wide blanket-on-a-roll of substrate. You mix the binder and oxide together in a thick paste and spread them on the sheet. I suspect that the thickness of the coating is regulated by a "doctor blade" setup. The coating is cured and then round disks are punched--the result is called a "cookie" for obvious reasons. It's then verified and inserted into the jacketing medium, sealed and packaged. The oxide coating on a 5.25" DD floppy is not much different from that of VHS videotape. I suspect that the demise of floppy manufacturing to more a case of video- and audiotape dying off. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 16 23:48:35 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 21:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: let's try this again... how do you build a floppy disk? Message-ID: <1361080115.55778.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 8:36 PM PST Nigel Williams wrote: >On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Chris Tofu > wrote: >> Then what? smear on some rust? is it sprayed on? once you get the chemistry correct it doesn't sound like the application portion should be that challenging. is there an adhesive applied first? > >There is a short section here about the raw materials and process: > >http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Floppy-Disk.html > >It would seem that the community might want to track down this document (book?): > >Aronson, Susan. Diskette Reference Manual. 3M Data Storage Products >Division, 1990. > >I notice that this fellow references this document too: > >http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/drive.html Smashing research excellent research From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Feb 16 23:49:15 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 00:49:15 -0500 Subject: Cyclone CVME961 Message-ID: From: Benjamin Huntsman > > Here's an odd one... > Anyone here ever seen, heard of, or have a Cyclone CVME961 board? > > > I have. The 961 was a pretty nice i960-based general purpose embedded controller that got a lot of use in real time systems and, as I understand, a lot of military stuff. i960CA of various speeds, memory, 2 serial ports and a mezzanine expansion scheme Cyclone called "Squall" that had a few options (I know there was an async serial card, think there was a SCSI card and ethernet card, but can't recall anything else). Not sure what specifically you want to know, but there is a good bit of info out there still at Google reach. Unfortunately, I decided i960 wasn't something I had time to play with, so all of mine are long gone. BTW...what you really want to find if this sort of thing is your kink is a CVME-965. 960HA, VME64, private and shared memory and 2 x Squall 2 mezzanine slots. The Squall 2 slots were much more useful, as Cyclone made all sorts of interesting options for it. I had, at least, SCSI, 2-port ethernet, various serial cards, some digitial input cards, etc. I sorta-kinda remember there was an ATM card; I didn't have one. Made whipping up a router on a card pretty easy, even if the preferred dev environment was Ada. From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Feb 17 01:46:53 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 07:46:53 +0000 Subject: Question about NeXT 17" B/W monitor Message-ID: Does anyone know the part number for the CRT in a 17" NeXT monochrome monitor? I've cast about for a schematic that shows it to no avail. I've opened up the monitor (N4000A), and the number is not evident. The internal frame bears a Sony name and number, SMC-311A. I fear the number may be hidden under the yoke - which I'd rather not pull free, for obvious reasons. Before I start getting dramatic with this thing, does anyone know the part number? I'm going to try rejuvenating the CRT, per a comment by Ethan a little while back (I acquired a B&K for $9 on ePay). Nearly all of the 17" CRTs have the same switch settings, but count on Jobs to have picked an off one. :-) So it seems wise to tap the collective wisdom before just crossing my fingers. Thanks -- Ian From RolexTM at gmx.de Fri Feb 15 09:25:32 2013 From: RolexTM at gmx.de (Alex) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:25:32 +0100 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. Message-ID: <511E536C.6070104@gmx.de> > The original Nova has a 4 bit ALU What do you mean? I think i did not get your answer. >> When I got my Nicolet, I had a similar sounding problem.It turned out to be a missing clock.Of course, yours may be soemthing different but you aregoing to need some schematics and a scope to track down.( I did mine without a schematic but I was lucky ).Dwight We already sighted most of the pdfs and schematics at bitsavers and simh. We have a scope and logic analyzer and some experience in component level repairs of electronics. This machine is just a bit harder to diagnose than for say our old VT100...the documentation is overwhelming and my brain has not adapted to it well atm ;) so i just hope to get somebody that has intimate knowledge of the machine.... The problem of the machine only running on single step and not on "run" may well be related to a missing clock, although i wonder if even single instruction stepping would work without clock since it also needs some form of clock to single step through one asm instruction...although i might be on the wrong train since there may well be more than one clock inside the machine. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Feb 15 11:00:30 2013 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 10:00:30 -0700 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> References: <511E3C97.2010607@gmx.de> Message-ID: <511E69AE.6030008@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Alex - Your e.mail begs many question. What documentation do you have? Are you following the checkout procedures in the DG hardware manual? What "simple programs" can be run? What does "reset the machine" mean? Does it mean use the Reset switch, power off the machine, or...? The original Nova is an interesting whose big weakness was its power supply (mainly the higher-voltage memory Vinh and Vmem supply). Note that console accumulator functions exam and deposit may be functionally tested without having a memory board in the computer(!). As Al said, the Nova uses data paths of 4-bit "nibbles" for most internal transfers - even to and from main core memory(!). Your symptom appears a common single-bit failure mode. I will contact you off-list with followup ... Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 2/15/2013 6:48 AM, Alex wrote: > Hi all, > > my Name is Alex, me and a friend of mine have been actively > participating in a computer collection, mostly repairing > stuff and bringing it back to life. We have numerous old apples, vaxes, > decstations, suns, next etc and some > real weird old stuff ;) > > Lately we discovered a DG nova standing in a dark corner of a storeroom. > We have absolutely no peripherals, just > the bare machine. It has 2 CPU boards, a general IO card, 2 Memory > boards and some unknown third party controller. > > The Machine as it sits now has 2-3 problems (at least): > > 1: Somehow the "desposit next" switch does not work as expected by not > incrementing the adress sometimes. Doing a deposit-examine next-deposit > works, so thats a minor problem. > > 2: Simple programs run fine in single step mode. Press RUN and the > machine seems to hang. You can not even STOP anymore, you have > to reset the machine. Annonying, but to test the simple stuff single > stepping also works.... > > 3: The biggest problem is: The ACs have numerous bits stuck on 1. It is > the same bit pattern for all ACs. We can store and > deposit the non-stuck bits, but all others remain a 1. With this > behaviour its really really hard to write any meaningful asm to > test the machine ;) > > Please see the attached Link for pictures of the machine and the > bit-pattern of the AC. Since the AC Deposit works as expected > and the error shows only when examining we are positive that the error > is not in the AC Registers itself but somewhere where > the switch location is actually shifted into the AC....or something like > that. We are also struggling a bit to get all the documentation > in a meaningful relation. So if you have any pointers on what to do or > check, please chime in. > > If the machine gets back to life i have plans on emulating a storage > device to run one of the available os-es. Should be doable with > a microcontroller and some logic glue.....but it looks like a long way ;) > > See actual pictures of the machine here > http://bigalpha.ath.cx/nova/pics/ori/index.html > where you can also see the bit Pattern of the AC. > > I kinda wonder why its > 1 11X 111 X11 1X1 11X > I guess this should point us nearer to the point of failure. > > > best regards > Alex From RolexTM at gmx.de Fri Feb 15 12:18:44 2013 From: RolexTM at gmx.de (alex) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:18:44 +0100 Subject: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <511E6A5A.7080601@Wild-Hare.com> References: <511E6A5A.7080601@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <511E7C04.2000606@gmx.de> Hi Bruce, thanks for taking your time to answer my mail! Sorry to leave out details, i know how frustrating it is if people forget the important bits of their problems ;) I have (at least sighted) all documentation from bitsavers: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dg/ and read a good amount of code and documentation of the simh project (because i would like to build a media emulator for this machine later....maybe) My main problem is that most of the stuff from bitsavers seems to be for newer machines that have a builtin ROM? My machine does not have the program load option (at least theres no switch for it) and i was under the impression that all documentation i found somehow just loaded a stored program for the check procedures. Am i wrong with this? So, in short i did not find any checkout procedure that looked adequate for my machine so i just hacked in some small asm programs that at least ran on the simulator. Actually, the machine runs simple nop jumps at least 1: jmp 2 2: jmp 3 3: jmp 1 If i remember right when running this program it did not even hang itself up (aka you could "stop" the machine). But i prepared the popular "Hello World" asm example to run without RDOS, and it obviously failed at least because of the stuck ACs. I mean, how can you write anything meaningful without using an AC? ;) By "Reset" i mean pushing the reset switch up when pressing down for "stop" does nothing. Again i may be subject to interpret the meaning of STOP and RESET wrong. Clearly this machine is confusing me ;) We will examine the power supply for sure! It bugs me that we did not think of that, since for now we only get to the machine once per week. We may also have the option to take it home though.... Also a friend of mine (which should be registering here soon, too - and is more experienced than me when it comes to electronics) said that the machine was acting strange when he first powered it up after it sat for a week (aka cold). Maybe that points to another aging/heat related/power supply problem. Thanks for clarifying the internal structure of the machine. I was not aware of that although i looked at alot bus pinouts, transfer timings, signal descriptions etc. See above, confusing! The third party board is unidentified for now. We tried to run without it but saw the same error. We also already noticed that the machine runs only with 2 CPU boards and nothing else, at least the PC counts and the ACs still deposit and load. I promise to take quality photos of anything you like once we get back to the machine. I apologize for the bad photos my phone makes. best regards Alex On 02/15/13 18:03, Bruce Ray wrote: > G'day Alex - > > Your e.mail begs many question. > What documentation do you have? > Are you following the checkout procedures in the DG hardware manual? > What "simple programs" can be run? > What does "reset the machine" mean? Does it mean use the Reset > switch, power off the machine, or...? > > The original Nova is an interesting whose big weakness was its power > supply (mainly the higher-voltage memory Vinh and Vmem supply). > Note that console accumulator functions exam and deposit may be > functionally tested without having a memory board in the computer(!). > > As Al said, the Nova uses data paths of 4-bit "nibbles" for most > internal transfers - even to and from main core memory(!). Your > symptom appears a common single-bit failure mode. > > What is the 3rd party board? > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > www.WildHareComputers.com > > > www.NovasAreForever.org > From RolexTM at gmx.de Fri Feb 15 12:20:11 2013 From: RolexTM at gmx.de (alex) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:20:11 +0100 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <511E7C04.2000606@gmx.de> References: <511E7C04.2000606@gmx.de> Message-ID: <511E7C5B.5040903@gmx.de> Hi Bruce, thanks for taking your time to answer my mail! Sorry to leave out details, i know how frustrating it is if people forget the important bits of their problems ;) I have (at least sighted) all documentation from bitsavers: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dg/ and read a good amount of code and documentation of the simh project (because i would like to build a media emulator for this machine later....maybe) My main problem is that most of the stuff from bitsavers seems to be for newer machines that have a builtin ROM? My machine does not have the program load option (at least theres no switch for it) and i was under the impression that all documentation i found somehow just loaded a stored program for the check procedures. Am i wrong with this? So, in short i did not find any checkout procedure that looked adequate for my machine so i just hacked in some small asm programs that at least ran on the simulator. Actually, the machine runs simple nop jumps at least 1: jmp 2 2: jmp 3 3: jmp 1 If i remember right when running this program it did not even hang itself up (aka you could "stop" the machine). But i prepared the popular "Hello World" asm example to run without RDOS, and it obviously failed at least because of the stuck ACs. I mean, how can you write anything meaningful without using an AC? ;) By "Reset" i mean pushing the reset switch up when pressing down for "stop" does nothing. Again i may be subject to interpret the meaning of STOP and RESET wrong. Clearly this machine is confusing me ;) We will examine the power supply for sure! It bugs me that we did not think of that, since for now we only get to the machine once per week. We may also have the option to take it home though.... Also a friend of mine (which should be registering here soon, too - and is more experienced than me when it comes to electronics) said that the machine was acting strange when he first powered it up after it sat for a week (aka cold). Maybe that points to another aging/heat related/power supply problem. Thanks for clarifying the internal structure of the machine. I was not aware of that although i looked at alot bus pinouts, transfer timings, signal descriptions etc. See above, confusing! The third party board is unidentified for now. We tried to run without it but saw the same error. We also already noticed that the machine runs only with 2 CPU boards and nothing else, at least the PC counts and the ACs still deposit and load. I promise to take quality photos of anything you like once we get back to the machine. I apologize for the bad photos my phone makes. best regards Alex On 02/15/13 18:03, Bruce Ray wrote: > G'day Alex - > > Your e.mail begs many question. > What documentation do you have? > Are you following the checkout procedures in the DG hardware manual? > What "simple programs" can be run? > What does "reset the machine" mean? Does it mean use the Reset > switch, power off the machine, or...? > > The original Nova is an interesting whose big weakness was its power > supply (mainly the higher-voltage memory Vinh and Vmem supply). > Note that console accumulator functions exam and deposit may be > functionally tested without having a memory board in the computer(!). > > As Al said, the Nova uses data paths of 4-bit "nibbles" for most > internal transfers - even to and from main core memory(!). Your > symptom appears a common single-bit failure mode. > > What is the 3rd party board? > > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > www.WildHareComputers.com > > > www.NovasAreForever.org > From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Fri Feb 15 13:35:43 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:35:43 +0000 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project Message-ID: <201302151935.r1FJZjYV071489@mx1.ezwind.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Nice work! > > I remember the 1130. What are you doing for a card reader? I recall that the 1130 could only read column-binary--it was up to software to interpret the data into character codes. > > Has anyone done an FPGA emulation of the 1620? That one has a soft spot in my heart to the extent that I can still remember the numeric opcodes for many instructions. The 1401 occupies a similar place in my memories. Little IBM boxes were really cute. > > --Chuck At the moment, I use a high speed stream protocol over USB, via the brilliant fpgalink library by Bruce McClelland ( http://www.makestuff.eu/wordpress/software/fpgalink/ ) to a bit of python code on a PC which takes files and sends them as card column signals to my 2501 reader emulation logic in the fpga. I am mapping all the signals from the 2501 to the adapter circuits in the 1130, timing everything and modeling state as close to a real 2501 as I can determine, so that it appears that the photocells are detecting holes at the right time as the card virtually slides through the emulated transport, but the content of the columns that get turned into lights are stuffed into a FIFO by the link from the PC. However, someone has offered a small card reader that I will be gratefully accepting and utilizing. I plan to map the real reader as the 2501 and use my alternate 1442 reader/punch emulation over the fpgalink channels so that I can both read real cards and read files on the PC as virtual cards. Yes, the 2501 just delivered to the 1130 one bit for each of the 12 card rows, exactly what was punched in that column. The 1130 programmer would convert the Hollerith coded characters into whatever other coding they wanted in their program. Boot mode wired the signals a bit differently to provide a 16 bit result to the 1130 that was usable as initial program load instructions, that is done in the 1130 adapter logic, not in the 2501. Finally, various forms of binary coding were used in the 1130, such as the user program format and a special binary mode used by diagnostic programs, but all of those are just the status of holes in a column sent as 12 bits plus 0000 to form an 1130 word. My python program converts ascii files to Hollerith, as well as delivering binary mode files directly as card hole images. I don't personally know of any fpga emulations of 1620 machines, but there are excellent simulators available. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Fri Feb 15 13:57:06 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:57:06 +0000 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project Message-ID: <201302151957.r1FJv8ZU073432@mx1.ezwind.net> Dave wrote: > > Has anyone done an FPGA emulation of the 1620? > > I don't think so. Of course there already is an FPGA emulation of the > 1130 by Richard T. Stofer which does plotting to an HPGL plotter. There is a video of his presentation to the 06 1130.org party here:- > > http://ibm1130.org/party/v06 > > I also have hacks to the SIMH emulation to drive an HPGL plotter. > Video of it in action here:- > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCUUgLvVvpg > Richards excellent work was what first got me involved with this - after watching his talk and contacting him, he shared his code and expertise to allow me to create a copy of his emulator. It inspired me to learn hardware design and electronics and to aim for my project. Richard designed his machine by designing hardware that would match the Functional Characteristics manual, analogous to how Amdahl designed an IBM compatible system by adhering to the Principles of Operations but adopting their own unique design within the machine. He did not have a goal to emulate the hardware console functions such as Single Step, Single Memory Cycle, Interrupt Run, Load, and so forth. Since I first got hands on experience with computers on an 1130, learning by using those controls and watching what my code was causing to happen, I wanted to recreate to that level. My machine is built to map almost exactly onto the logic gates of the 1130, as I used the ALDs (automated logic diagrams) to recreate the system. It is designed to run at the same speed as the physical 1130. It is therefore a cycle by cycle faithful recreation, allowing someone to see what changes when releasing the Start key in Single Step mode at cycle T4 of instruction phase E1, which is phase B of the clock. Certain conditions change or actions take place on specific phases of those cycles - this recreates them. I also mapped all the hardware adapter logic faithfully and built hardware to emulate all the signals that came into the 1130 from the peripherals. As a final step, I adapt real hardware I have, an Electronic Typewriter 50 (selectric ball type machine), to link to my hardware emulation so that it behaves the same. My keyboard is a photocell driven partially mechanical unit from a keypunch of the era, interfaced to link to the 1130 adapter circuits and present the exact signals that would come from the real 1130 keyboard hardware. I built the display light pedestal above the console printer to scale, as another example of my obsessiveness. My aim is to replicate the experience of running an 1130 hands on. This certainly is no denigration of the emulator built by Richard Stofer - it provides higher performance than a real 1130 and from a programmers standpoint is a truly faithful replica. For most people, that is all the recreation they want. Beyond that, there are software simulators such as the one hosted by Brian Knittel at http://www.ibm1130.org with a full set of 1130 software at the same site - highly recommended. This project has allowed me to meet a number of great people who have offered advice, aid and a supportive ear as I toiled away - I try to credit them all in my blog, but it is possible I haven't mentioned all of them. I am also indebted to Al Kossow and the Bitsavers archive for availability of ALDs and other documentation sufficient to produce this hardware level recreation. > But for the 1620 nothing so far. There is Java based emulator but the only software thats been converted is the diagnostics. Al did load up the other stuff he has to bit savers , but I havn't had time to look at it, as I got distracted by a project to connect some Creed equipment from a Ferranti Pegasus to a software emulator.... > Sounds like you are having some fun yourself. Hope it is going well. >> That one has a soft spot in my heart to the extent that I can still >> remember the numeric opcodes for many instructions. The 1401 occupies >> a similar place in my memories. Little IBM boxes were really cute. >> > >The 1620 I used wasn't what I would call "cute" but it was the second machine I programmed. I guess we are all bonded by an appreciation of early technology machines that were formative for us. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 07:24:45 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:24:45 +0000 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project In-Reply-To: <201302151957.r1FJv8ZU073432@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302151957.r1FJv8ZU073432@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5120DA1D.5040608@gmail.com> On 15/02/2013 19:57, Claunch,Carl wrote: > > Sounds like you are having some fun yourself. Hope it is going well. > Yes, and I would eventually like to build an FPGA representation of the Pegasus but I haven't got as far as even deciding if I should emulate the functional characteristics or go for a gate level emulation. At present I am writing a software emulation from scratch so I have a better understanding of how the machine works.... > >>> That one has a soft spot in my heart to the extent that I can still >>> remember the numeric opcodes for many instructions. The 1401 occupies >>> a similar place in my memories. Little IBM boxes were really cute. >> The 1620 I used wasn't what I would call "cute" but it was the second machine I programmed. > > > I guess we are all bonded by an appreciation of early technology machines that were formative for us. > > > > Carl > > > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From bob at jfcl.com Sun Feb 17 08:43:04 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 06:43:04 -0800 Subject: MRRT-11 anyone? Message-ID: <002f01ce0d1d$18231c90$486955b0$@com> Would anyone have a distribution for MRRT-11? I'd really like to find a copy if anyone has it or can give me a pointer. [What the heck is MRRT-11? "Memory Resident RT-11" - it's a hacked up version of RT-11 that runs diskless. It was an official DEC product sold in the late 70s.] Thanks, Bob Armstrong From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 17 10:04:37 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 08:04:37 -0800 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <511E536C.6070104@gmx.de> References: <511E536C.6070104@gmx.de> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2013 16:25:32 +0100 > From: RolexTM at gmx.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DG Nova repair etc. > > > The original Nova has a 4 bit ALU > > What do you mean? I think i did not get your answer. > > > > >> When I got my Nicolet, I had a similar sounding problem.It turned > out to be a missing clock.Of course, yours may be soemthing different > but you aregoing to need some schematics and a scope to track down.( I > did mine without a schematic but I was lucky ).Dwight > > > We already sighted most of the pdfs and schematics at bitsavers and > simh. We have a scope and logic analyzer > and some experience in component level repairs of electronics. This > machine is just a bit harder to diagnose > than for say our old VT100...the documentation is overwhelming and my > brain has not adapted to it well atm ;) > > so i just hope to get somebody that has intimate knowledge of the > machine.... > > The problem of the machine only running on single step and not on "run" > may well be related to a missing clock, although > i wonder if even single instruction stepping would work without clock > since it also needs some form of clock to single step > through one asm instruction...although i might be on the wrong train > since there may well be more than one clock inside the machine. Single stepping is clocked by the switches on the front panel. When you hitthe run switch it runs at full speed by the processor clock. There are severalclocks used that all need to happen.On mine it was the write clock to the core memory. Core uses distructivereads and needs the data to be written back after each read. The missingclock caused the failed write to memory.All the other front panel operation worked fine.I doubt your problem is the same. I was just pointing out how differentfront panel operation was than full speed. The front panel runs thingartifically at mechanical switch speed.Do you have schematics for your machine?Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 17 11:07:20 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:07:20 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: <511FCB5E.5050003@gmail.com> References: , <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com>, <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net>, <511FCB03.6040307@gmail.com>, <511FCB5E.5050003@gmail.com> Message-ID: It could easily be the 1000000th 901. There would also be aone millionth 801, 802 as well as 800.The 900's had the wider pins ( I think 44 but would have to look )The 800 used the 50 pin.I wonder who determined which connector to use? What didthe original IBM machines use? The Sugarts came with differentfront plates as well.I think the 50 pin got determined by the use of ribbon cable.Much cheaper than hand wiring or special PC board.It seems like the 8 inch drives had all kinds of connectors.I have a couple of other drive connector and signal typesfrom different manufactures.They seemed to have settled down to a standard by the5 1/5 drive time.Dwight From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 11:46:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: let's try this again... how do you build a floppy disk? Message-ID: <1361123181.51308.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 8:44 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 02/16/2013 07:51 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> start with a disk... >> >> Then what? smear on some rust? is it sprayed on? once you get the >> chemistry correct it doesn't sound like the application portion >> should be that challenging. is there an adhesive applied first? >> Afterwards? Where's that Jeri lady. Get her on this LOL > >Well, no, you don't start with a disk. That would be silly. > >You start with a very wide blanket-on-a-roll of substrate. You mix the binder and oxide together in a thick paste and spread them on the sheet. I suspect that the thickness of the coating is regulated by a "doctor blade" setup. The coating is cured and then round disks are punched--the result is called a "cookie" for obvious reasons. It's then verified and inserted into the jacketing medium, sealed and packaged. Not so fast bucko. Got to flip the blankee over and coat that side. >The oxide coating on a 5.25" DD floppy is not much different from that of VHS videotape. I suspect that the demise of floppy manufacturing to more a case of video- and audiotape dying off. I would think what put the kybosh on both were advances in optical media, which became a solution for computer storage earlier then video. Both useful.posts though. Anyone think this can't be done? Is choice of substrate that critical? Question in my mind is how to control the thickness. This is why I had thought spraying would be appropriate. Maybe it is. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 11:56:25 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:56:25 -0800 Subject: Cyclone CVME961 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:49 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > BTW...what you really want to find if this sort of thing is your kink is a > CVME-965. 960HA, VME64, private and shared memory and 2 x Squall 2 > mezzanine slots. If someone is in to that sort of thing there are some of these Cyclone chassis on eBay with (3x) of the CVME965 CPU cards with I/O interfaces and power supplies (48V). I have no idea what you would do for software to run on these things. http://www.ebay.com/itm/230928916571 From wilson at dbit.com Sun Feb 17 12:48:11 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:48:11 -0500 Subject: MRRT-11 anyone? In-Reply-To: <002f01ce0d1d$18231c90$486955b0$@com> References: <002f01ce0d1d$18231c90$486955b0$@com> Message-ID: <20130217184811.GA19491@dbit.dbit.com> On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 06:43:04AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote: > Would anyone have a distribution for MRRT-11? I'd really like to find a >copy if anyone has it or can give me a pointer. > > [What the heck is MRRT-11? "Memory Resident RT-11" - it's a hacked up >version of RT-11 that runs diskless. It was an official DEC product sold in >the late 70s.] I thought it was just a conditional assembly of regular RT-11? (MRRT$ conditionals in RMONSJ.MAC V4.0 for one). Of course that's not the same as an actual distribution... John Wilson D Bit From tom94022 at comcast.net Sun Feb 17 13:02:11 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 11:02:11 -0800 Subject: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy In-Reply-To: References: , <4FAD91F1.9080708@gmail.com> <511E9B20.20302@gmail.com>, <20130216095525.A16251@shell.lmi.net>, <511FCB03.6040307@gmail.com>, <511FCB5E.5050003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <363C0D9717624B2492F8FA4425CEDCD3@U260> I am pretty sure that Shugart lumped the 900, 901 and 801 into one family for counting purposes so that there would only be a single one millionth drive of one model number from that family, and I am also pretty sure that this was the first disk drive family to achieve 1 million units produced. I doubt if the 900, 901 or 851 achieved one million in and of themselves; the volume was in the 801. BTW I am pretty sure the Smithsonian drive was gold plated. BTW the whole concept of one millionth is fairly ambiguous given the distinction between built, shipped, gross sales and net sales. I suspect these were manufactured on a single day based upon lot sequence number and a calculation of the date from gross prior sales and finished goods inventory. It maybe they pulled finished goods and remanufactured them with the plated castings. To the best of my recollection the early FDDs used pin and socket connectors such as the Ampex M series but went to flat ribbon cable for cost. By the late 70s I think the 801 became standard and everyone offered a Shugart interface compatible drive. FWIW, I joined Shugart just after all this and have asked some of the more senior alumni for comments Tom > -----Original Message----- > From: dwight elvey [mailto:dkelvey at hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 9:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Shugart's 1,000,000 901 8" Floppy > > It could easily be the 1000000th 901. There would also be aone millionth > 801, 802 as well as 800.The 900's had the wider pins ( I think 44 but > would have to look )The 800 used the 50 pin.I wonder who determined which > connector to use? What didthe original IBM machines use? The Sugarts came > with differentfront plates as well.I think the 50 pin got determined by > the use of ribbon cable.Much cheaper than hand wiring or special PC > board.It seems like the 8 inch drives had all kinds of connectors.I have a > couple of other drive connector and signal typesfrom different > manufactures.They seemed to have settled down to a standard by the5 1/5 > drive time.Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 17 13:15:36 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 11:15:36 -0800 Subject: Introduction and IBM 1130 replica project In-Reply-To: <201302151935.r1FJZjYV071489@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302151935.r1FJZjYV071489@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <51212C58.2090800@sydex.com> On 02/15/2013 11:35 AM, Claunch,Carl wrote: > I don't personally know of any fpga emulations of 1620 machines, but > there are excellent simulators available. Yes, my "99bottles" program was done using SIMH. To me, the 1620 was the perfect machine for teaching students about computers. Very accessible--you could hit the LOAD key and enter your machine-language program directly on the IBM Model B typewriter. One of the last machines to my knowledge for which IBM provided machine-language (not assembly) coding forms for (the so-called "absolute" coding system). Besides, how many machines required the user to first load tables telling it how to add and multiply, yet could handle 20,000 digit numeric quantities (slowly!)? I've had a couple of co-workers who had a soft spot for the LGP30, but I could never warm to it much. Same for the PB250--there was just something that turned me off about one-plus-one addressing. --Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 17 13:19:22 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:19:22 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: References: <1360858586.71694.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130214103017.D72851@shell.lmi.net> <55233DF4EA894A97BD5AE429569A4BB2@hd2600xt6a04f7> <511D4B2F.1010505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51212D3A.5070201@brutman.com> On 2/14/2013 3:16 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? >> > > > Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA > connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were > incompatible with most utility programs. > > Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What an > absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible than > early clones. > > You contradict yourself. You say the PCjr was not a clone, and then you complain that it was less PC-5150 compatible than early clones. Note that the PCjr runs most later software just fine, assuming you have enough memory. I think what broke the Jr has more to do with people coding to specific BIOS locations, which broke any "near" clone. In 1983 when the PCjr was introduced that practice was rampant. By 1985 there were enough other "near clones" with some unique hardware out there so that the practice would break other machines too. Case in point: Nobody complains about the 5140 Convertible being not compatible enough, yet it has a lot of the same general problems as the PCjr. (Using the NMI for keyboard handling, mapping the keyboard scan codes, etc.) Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 17 13:21:15 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:21:15 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1360881415.97528.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1360881415.97528.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51212DAB.4080006@brutman.com> On 2/14/2013 4:36 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Um yeah. The Peanut was an anemic T1000. It's a fun unit if you can live or partially deal with it's deficiencies. I'm just glad I.wasn't suckered into buying one back then. The Sanyos, Peanut, and T1000 had similar video modes. Must have been a creeping hardware virus anomole. > You have that backwards. The Tandy 1000 line was designed as a clone of the PCjr. And in many ways, they did not make the same mistakes that IBM made. For example, the location of the expandable video buffer ... From mj at mjturner.net Sun Feb 17 13:26:36 2013 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:26:36 +0000 Subject: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) Message-ID: <20130217192636.GA3751@feynman.majic12.net> Hi Just came across this on eBay and thought it may be of interest to the list: WANG VS7150, VS7010, 4 x 3270 terminals - Diskpacks - early 1980s Computing - Could be useful for Spares, Film Props, Collector, etc? ... Main processor is a VS7150. This was attached to another large cabinet which houses three large and heavy hard drives (believed to be 454MB). There is also a VS7010 and a VS75E, the latter of which seems to be missing some covers. There are also somewhere between 4 and 6 3270 terminals (see photo of single unit). There are also a quantity of the removeable disk-packs, which, if my memory serves me correctly, used to be 300MB. There is also an old line-printer with acoustic hood and some boxes of the flowline paper. ... Current price is GBP 950 and it's available for collection in London (UK) - seller is also willing to ship it anywhere in the UK. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221183449983 Not affiliated with the seller in any way. -mj -- Michael-John Turner mj at mjturner.net <> http://mjturner.net/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 17 13:26:58 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:26:58 -0600 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed Message-ID: <51212F02.2090307@brutman.com> Hi, I made some changes in my TCP/IP code to make it behave better when packets are lost and it has to retransmit. The old code used to wait a fixed amount of time before retrying, which was painfully slow on a local connection. The new code is adaptive and should work much better on a wide range of connections. If you'd like to help me test it I have my PCjr running the mTCP FTP server with some old computer pictures, some software, and some text files. (I'll add more during the day to keep it interesting.) You can connect by going to the following address: ftp://96.42.84.69:2021/ That URL should work in most browsers (Firefox, IE and Chrome). Chrome tends to be a bit of a pig and it tries to preload the content that it finds, so if you see it going slowly it is probably due to multiple connections. The poor PCjr is only setup for 9 simultaneous connections. If you use an FTP client anonymous FTP should work fine. Note the non-standard control port - 2021. Which also means that if you are using a real FTP client (and not a browser) you should be using PASSIVE mode. (Port mode with a non-standard control port confuses most firewalls, and they won't pick it up. Most browsers use PASSIVE mode by default.) Uploading is not turned on for this test, but if you are dying to upload contact me and I'll give you the password. Fun facts: - The machine is a PCjr with a jrIDE sidecar, 20GB IDE hard drive, WD8003 ISA Ethernet adapter, NEC V20 CPU, and an IBM PC 5150 keyboard. Yes, this is the same machine that was recently maligned on the list. ;-0 - If you want to see how the TCP/IP code is holding up you can get statistics by using the "SITE STATS" command in a suitable FTP client. - This is a DOS machine - you have to use DOS filenames and paths, except for the directory delimiter - that uses the standard forward slash. (Using the DOS backslash was too difficult for most clients and browsers.) Also, if you use MGET remember that you have to use *.* and not just * for a filespec. Comments and bug reports are welcome. Use good judgement to avoid cluttering up the list too much ... Mike From chrise at pobox.com Sun Feb 17 13:53:42 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:53:42 -0600 Subject: RGB analog, sync on G to VGA or HDMI? In-Reply-To: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> References: <20130129173002.GG14192@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20130217195342.GA2076@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (01/29/2013 at 11:30AM -0600), Chris Elmquist wrote: > Are there any recomendations for a converter that can take RGB with > sync on GREEN as input and produce a VGA (or HDMI) output suitable for > driving a modern LCD? > > I seem to be accumulating numerous older pieces of gear that produce RGB > output and space and reliability of the old tubes to which they connect > is becoming more and more premium. Would like to be able to use an > LCD as an alternative. > > A couple DEC VT240 came my way this weekend and they will need some TLC to > restore but the VR240 that came along with them is in even worse shape. > I'll give it my best shot but ability to use an LCD as Plan B would > be nice. > > Any recomendations from success? Thought I would follow-up on this and give my own recommendation from a success... I got one of these boards, http://www.jammaboards.com/store/cga-ega-yuv-to-vga-arcade-hd-converter-pcb-gbs-8220-gbs-8220.html which is intended for the arcade space-- replacing failed CRTs with LCDs. The board does not accept RGsB input directly however, so I put a sync separator using a TI/National LMH1980 to pull sync from green and then fed the composite sync output from the '1980 into the GBS-8220 along with RG&B and voila got a nice crisp display on a 1024x768 VGA LCD. I originally tried separate H and V sync from the '1980 to the GBS-8220 but it would not properly detect this input format. When I used composite sync from the '1980 however, it lit right up. I used this TI eval kit for the LMH1980, http://www.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?literatureNumber=snla096a&fileType=pdf Now that the concept is proven, will probably make some dedicated PCBs for the LMH1980 with 5V regulator and convenient connectoring/cabling to make a more general solution. -- Chris Elmquist From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 08:21:07 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:21:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: Warren Stearns and I have been working on the PDP-9 at the RICM. Yesterday we got the core memory working and started debugging the processor. Quite a milestone for a 44 year old system. All of the operate instructions seem to work. The JMP and ISZ instructions are flakey, even when single stepping. This could be a microcode problem, or a problem with the data multiplexers. It is an interesting machine because it is microcoded with read-only core memory. I am not sure why they used core for the microcode. Maybe just a board with a bunch of diodes would have done the same thing and would have been a lot simpler? I am finding the schematics a challenge because they were created before ANSI or IEC standard logic symbols were invented. Eventually I will understand the symbology. Some of the design is a little strange because you can abuse DTL logic in ways that TTL will not tolerate. Lots of delay lines where you can adjust the delay by changing wire-wrap on the backplane. Lots of pulse amplifiers to improve fan-out and reshape signals. You can read about our debugging progress here. http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/pdp-9-restoration We need to fix the paper tape reader so we can load some of the diags. We are a long way from connecting the TC-59 and the TU20. I suspect that getting the TU20 working will be a challenge. -- Michael Thompson From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 14:06:07 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 12:06:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361131567.5073.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 11:21 AM PST Michael B. Brutman wrote: >On 2/14/2013 4:36 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> Um yeah. The Peanut was an anemic T1000. It's a fun unit if you can live or partially deal with it's deficiencies. I'm just glad I.wasn't suckered into buying one back then. The Sanyos, Peanut, and T1000 had similar video modes. Must have been a creeping hardware virus anomole. >> > >You have that backwards. The Tandy 1000 line was designed as a clone of >the PCjr. And in many ways, they did not make the same mistakes that >IBM made. For example, the location of the expandable video buffer ... I didn't say the Tandy came before the Peanut. The P* was an anemic T1K, the T* was a P* on steroids, same thing. Now what might be an interesting project would be to drop the guts of a Jr into a clone case and add functionality that way, instead of endlessly adding side carts. You'd need to piggyback off the 8088 socket in order to provide for ISA slots and other assorted madness. It's truly a pity no one offered such a solution when it would have mattered most... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 14:22:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 12:22:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361132569.5481.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 11:19 AM PST Michael B. Brutman wrote: >On 2/14/2013 3:16 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:38 PM >> >> Subject: Re: Who were the worst of the worst? >> >> >> >> Some of the Tandy 1000 series were stinkers. Weird proprietary ISA >> connectors, weird video adapters, weird versions of DOS that were >> incompatible with most utility programs. >> >> Not a clone, but no list would be complete without the PC Jr. IMHO. What an >> absolutely terrible machine. It was actually *less* PC-5150 compatible than >> early clones. >> >> > >You contradict yourself. You say the PCjr was not a clone, and then you complain that it was less PC-5150 compatible than early clones. > >Note that the PCjr runs most later software just fine, assuming you have enough memory. I think what broke the Jr has more to do with people coding to specific BIOS locations, which broke any "near" clone. In 1983 when the PCjr was introduced that practice was rampant. By 1985 there were enough other "near clones" with some unique hardware out there so that the practice would break other machines too. > >Case in point: Nobody complains about the 5140 Convertible being not compatible enough, yet it has a lot of the same general problems as the PCjr. (Using the NMI for keyboard handling, mapping the keyboard scan codes, etc.) > > >Mike I'm sure Jason can speak for himself, but... It would seem his point is since it was offered as a PC substitute, it should have been more "clone" then it was. While nowhere near a clone in the purest sense, an nearly exact copy, like a generic Taiwanese clone, it still should have been a more workable substitute for a PC. The AT for instance, while could be considered something of a steroidal clone, was worlds more compatible then the Jr. And add to that company's willingness to work around the AT's minor incompatibilities you had a ready upgrade solution to the PC. I'm not that familiar with the JX but something like that should have been the Jr. Or the model 25s. Some expandability, in reality could have been a good secretary's unit (strangely the model 30 seems to have been used more along those lines). From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 14:31:18 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:31:18 +0000 Subject: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) In-Reply-To: <20130217192636.GA3751@feynman.majic12.net> References: <20130217192636.GA3751@feynman.majic12.net> Message-ID: <51213E16.9000406@gmail.com> On 17/02/2013 19:26, Michael-John Turner wrote: > Hi > > Just came across this on eBay and thought it may be of interest to the > list: > > WANG VS7150, VS7010, 4 x 3270 terminals - Diskpacks - early 1980s Computing > - Could be useful for Spares, Film Props, Collector, etc? > ... > Main processor is a VS7150. This was attached to another large cabinet > which houses three large and heavy hard drives (believed to be 454MB). > There is also a VS7010 and a VS75E, the latter of which seems to be missing > some covers. There are also somewhere between 4 and 6 3270 terminals (see > photo of single unit). There are also a quantity of the removeable > disk-packs, which, if my memory serves me correctly, used to be 300MB. > There is also an old line-printer with acoustic hood and some boxes of the > flowline paper. > ... > > Current price is GBP 950 and it's available for collection in London (UK) - > seller is also willing to ship it anywhere in the UK. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221183449983 > > Not affiliated with the seller in any way. > > -mj It has been around for some time. They are I think Wang terminals not 3270. Needs a lot of space... From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 17 14:36:05 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 14:36:05 -0600 Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? In-Reply-To: <1361131567.5073.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361131567.5073.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51213F35.9030900@brutman.com> On 2/17/2013 2:06 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 11:21 AM PST Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> On 2/14/2013 4:36 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>> Um yeah. The Peanut was an anemic T1000. It's a fun unit if you can live or partially deal with it's deficiencies. I'm just glad I.wasn't suckered into buying one back then. The Sanyos, Peanut, and T1000 had similar video modes. Must have been a creeping hardware virus anomole. >>> >> >> You have that backwards. The Tandy 1000 line was designed as a clone of >> the PCjr. And in many ways, they did not make the same mistakes that >> IBM made. For example, the location of the expandable video buffer ... > > I didn't say the Tandy came before the Peanut. The P* was an anemic T1K, the T* was a P* on steroids, same thing. > Now what might be an interesting project would be to drop the guts of a Jr into a clone case and add functionality that way, instead of endlessly adding side carts. You'd need to piggyback off the 8088 socket in order to provide for ISA slots and other assorted madness. It's truly a pity no one offered such a solution when it would have mattered most... > > > The Peanut, by definition, could not be an anemic Tandy 1000 - the Tandy 1000 did not exist! And yes, there is an ordering dependency in what you wrote. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 15:15:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 13:15:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who were the worst of the worst? Message-ID: <1361135715.52766.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I disagree. By comparison it lacks features compared to the Tandy. As does the Sanyo. They share enough to make the comparison. I wouldn't for instance make the same comparisons between the 1000 and 2000. They're just too different, but in many respects the model 2000 is a more powerful machine. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 17 16:02:35 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 22:02:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <511E7C04.2000606@gmx.de> from "alex" at Feb 15, 13 07:18:44 pm Message-ID: Firstly a disclaimer. I know very little about Data Ganeral machines. The only one I own is a Nova 1200 which somebody stole the frontpanel PCB from. S've never made a replacement, I've never worked on it. Maybe some day, On the other hand, I have done a lot of (component level [1] troubleshooting and repairs on machiens of simialr vintage. So I can make a few genral comments. [1] Is there any other kind ? In anotyehr message you compare repairing this machine to doing VT100. And you say that the Nova is a lot harder. I would say it's differnt, not necessarily harder. Yes, there are a lot of compoents, but they are all documented. Unliek the VT100 where you don't know the ROM contents (fidning a single-bit error i nthe ROM could prove 'intresting'), and there are undocuemtned transofers in the PSU and monitor PCB sections. But anyway... > So, in short i did not find any checkout procedure that looked adequate > for my machine so i just > hacked in some small asm programs that at least ran on the simulator. IIRC you have a stuck bit somewhere in the data path (around the ALU, possibly?). It is by no means uncommongf for the ALU to be used to update the program counter on such machines (certainly DEC and HP did this) and thus a problem with the data path section can easily prevent programs form running. I would attack this problem first. As an aside, one thing I hae learnt is that if you find a problem, correct it. Even if it _appears_ to make things worse, the machine can't work properly if something is defective. So fix all you find. [...] > We will examine the power supply for sure! It bugs me that we did not > think of that, since for now we only get My experiense is that PSU problems can cause seemingly unrelated faults. Like the time my PDP11/45 would run fine for about 30 minutes nad then fail in an odd way. Turned out the +5V line to part fo the CPU was sitting at 4.4V. I would check all power supply outputs _on load) for votlage and ripple (use a 'scope on them). Again, if anything seems wrong, correct it. It may not help, but at least it will elimnate this as a possible cause. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 17:18:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 15:18:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova Message-ID: <1361143117.77302.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion tower in a junk pile in a scrap pile a few years ago. I remember asking the list if anyone wanted me to retrieved it. There were no replies. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 17 18:02:10 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:02:10 -0700 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51216F82.5050903@brouhaha.com> Michael Thompson wrote: > It is an interesting machine because it is microcoded with read-only > core memory. I am not sure why they used core for the microcode. Maybe > just a board with a bunch of diodes would have done the same thing and > would have been a lot simpler? Implementing the PDP-9 control store with diodes would have required a fairly large board, as it would have needed locations for 2304 diodes. Assuming that the microcode had an even distribution of ones and zeros, it would have needed 1152 diodes. I'm reasonably sure that using core was more compact and less expensive. In the PDP-9, each core of the core rope memory stores 64 bits, unlike conventional read/write core memory, where each core stores only a single bit. Core rope memory uses the core as a transformer, and does not depend on the hysteresis loop of the core nor attempt to change the direction of magnetization of the core. There are 64 words of control store, so there are 64 wires. Each of those wires goes through some of the 36 cores, and around others. When a pulse is sent down a word line, in only the cores that it passes through, it induces a pulse in a sense line. The same general technique was used for the lowest-level control store of the HP 9100 calculator, and the program store of the Apollo Guidance Computer. IBM used similar technology for the "TROS" control store of some System/360 processors and peripheral controllers. Eric From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 17 18:05:00 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:05:00 -0500 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <1361143117.77302.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361143117.77302.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5121702C.6040803@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/02/13 6:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion tower in a junk pile in a scrap pile a few years ago. I remember asking the list if anyone wanted me to retrieved it. There were no replies. > Damn, been looking for one forever. --T From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Feb 17 18:12:47 2013 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:12:47 -0500 Subject: MRRT-11 anyone? In-Reply-To: <20130217184811.GA19491@dbit.dbit.com> References: <002f01ce0d1d$18231c90$486955b0$@com> <20130217184811.GA19491@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <512171FF.5030608@compsys.to> >On Sunday, February 17, 2013 at 1:48:11 P.M. John Wilson wrote: >On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 06:43:04AM -0800, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > >>Would anyone have a distribution for MRRT-11? I'd really like to find a >>copy if anyone has it or can give me a pointer. >> >> [What the heck is MRRT-11? "Memory Resident RT-11" - it's a hacked up >>version of RT-11 that runs diskless. It was an official DEC product sold in >>the late 70s.] >> >I thought it was just a conditional assembly of regular RT-11? >(MRRT$ conditionals in RMONSJ.MAC V4.0 for one). Of course that's >not the same as an actual distribution... > Just to add to what John wrote, a VERY quick search of RT-11 source code starting with V05.00 of RT-11 does not encounter the MRRT$ conditional. As for V04.00 of RT-11, the conditional does appear in RMONSJ.MAC, but not in RMONFB.MAC, so it seems as if the MRRT$ Memory Resident aspect of RT-11 was available only with the SJ Monitor. A quick search of files prior to V04.00 and after produced no hits on the MRRT$ conditional symbol, so there is a possibility (very strong starting with V05.00 of RT-11) that DEC had support for MRRT-11 only with V04 of RT-11 from about 1979 to 1983. It is VERY possible that the user was responsible for producing MRRT-11 and integrating such a system. From looking at the *.Mac files for V04.00 of RT-11, the MRRT$ conditional appears in at least the RMONSJ, USR and the BSTRAP files. There is some indication that the memory resident code did not support a file system, but that is not certain. More important would be to locate the documentation for MRRT-11 to determine additional details of how it was put together and how it operated Since I have never actively used MRRT-11, I can't provide and more help at this point. Jerome Fine From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Feb 17 18:28:45 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:28:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) Message-ID: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> Pulled it out, reseated the cables, checked the connections, plugged it into a big enough power supply, and gave it another go. Spun up, head load or lock solenoid clicked, waited about 4 seconds (no sound of seeking), spin down. Sounds like the problem might be somewhere in the head positioning or voice coil/drive. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Feb 17 18:37:15 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 16:37:15 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5121702C.6040803@telegraphics.com.au> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: toby at telegraphics.com.au > Sent: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:05:00 -0500 > To: > Subject: Re: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova > > On 17/02/13 6:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion tower in a junk pile in >> a scrap pile a few years ago. I remember asking the list if anyone >> wanted me to retrieved it. There were no replies. >> > > Damn, been looking for one forever. > > --T I own an AV-412. I used to own a 410 also, but a list member has has it now (and you know who you are :-). The m88k was a very cool processor. --n0body ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 19:01:19 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:01:19 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51217D5F.7030504@gmail.com> On 2/17/2013 4:37 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >> >> Damn, been looking for one forever. >> >> --T > I own an AV-412. I used to own a 410 also, but a list member has > has it now (and you know who you are :-). The m88k was a very cool > processor. > > --n0body It was a 410. Now it's a 500 series box with the dual 33MHz cpu in it. Next to a certain 68000 trainer made out of wood and plexiglass it is the second favorite box I have. Just something about the odd metal stand that makes it even cooler than just the 88K inside. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 19:10:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:10:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova Message-ID: <1361149838.14983.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 4:05 PM PST Toby Thain wrote: >On 17/02/13 6:18 PM, ChrMinhis Tofu wrote: >> >> I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion tower in a junk pile in a scrap pile a few years ago. I remember asking the list if anyone wanted me to retrieved it. There were no replies. >> > >Damn, been looking for one forever. > >--T unless I'm mistaken you're in Australia. and that being the case don't feel too bad this was hardly a museum quality piece. It's obvious rareness made me think someone could have used parts. But I'll keep you in mind if I should come across another. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 17 19:45:37 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) In-Reply-To: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20130217174458.H46648@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Scott Quinn wrote: > Pulled it out, reseated the cables, checked the connections, plugged it > into a big enough power supply, and gave it another go. > Spun up, head load or lock solenoid clicked, waited about 4 seconds (no > sound of seeking), spin down. Sounds like the problem might be somewhere > in the head positioning or voice coil/drive. Could THAT be the drive thinking that it did not reach full speed? From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Feb 17 20:08:59 2013 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 18:08:59 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <51217D5F.7030504@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: mc68010 at gmail.com > Sent: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 17:01:19 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova > > On 2/17/2013 4:37 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >>> >>> Damn, been looking for one forever. >>> >>> --T >> I own an AV-412. I used to own a 410 also, but a list member has >> has it now (and you know who you are :-). The m88k was a very cool >> processor. >> >> --n0body > > It was a 410. Now it's a 500 series box with the dual 33MHz cpu in it. > Next to a certain 68000 trainer made out of wood and plexiglass it is > the second favorite box I have. Just something about the odd metal > stand that makes it even cooler than just the 88K inside. Right-- I wanted to do the 530 conversion also, but I haven't the time for these things. Just when I think I can get something going, something happens to mangle whats left of my life. I'm just glad there's someone out there who enjoys these things I had languishing in my garage... Jeff ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 21:41:43 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:41:43 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> On 2/17/2013 6:08 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > Right-- I wanted to do the 530 conversion also, but I haven't the time > for these things. Just when I think I can get something going, something > happens to mangle whats left of my life. > > I'm just glad there's someone out there who enjoys these things I had > languishing in my garage... > > > Jeff > > I just consider it on loan so, when you find the time again let me know. It's my ftp server until then. I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. I need wiring diagrams and schematics for the power supply. It is a model 2113 that seems fine but, just doesn't turn on. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 17 22:01:38 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:01:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova Message-ID: <1361160098.93339.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical >information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. I need wiring >diagrams and schematics for the power supply. It is a model 2113 that >seems fine but, just doesn't turn on. Perhaps it's just a solder crack. If you dismantle it enough to get at the pcb's bottom you could touch each blob with a soldering gun. I have fixed at least 1 unit that way (it worked after I did anyway). From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Feb 17 22:13:20 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:13:20 -0800 Subject: NCR tower was Re: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <1361160098.93339.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361160098.93339.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5121AA60.5080303@gmail.com> On 2/17/2013 8:01 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical >> information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. I need wiring >> diagrams and schematics for the power supply. It is a model 2113 that >> seems fine but, just doesn't turn on. > Perhaps it's just a solder crack. If you dismantle it enough to get at the pcb's bottom you could touch each blob with a soldering gun. I have fixed at least 1 unit that way (it worked after I did anyway). On the backplane ? Every bit of circuit board and cable will have to come out to remove that bit without a cutting torch. Everything is blocked by welded steel in these monsters. I am willing to give it a shot if it worked for you though. It does seem like a connection issue but, what I have rung out so far seems ok. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 17 22:42:22 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 20:42:22 -0800 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM In-Reply-To: <51216F82.5050903@brouhaha.com> References: <51216F82.5050903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6983EF7F-44F0-4768-8DCF-B83C18234534@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 17, at 4:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Michael Thompson wrote: >> It is an interesting machine because it is microcoded with read-only >> core memory. I am not sure why they used core for the microcode. >> Maybe >> just a board with a bunch of diodes would have done the same thing >> and >> would have been a lot simpler? > > Implementing the PDP-9 control store with diodes would have > required a fairly large board, as it would have needed locations > for 2304 diodes. Assuming that the microcode had an even > distribution of ones and zeros, it would have needed 1152 diodes. > I'm reasonably sure that using core was more compact and less > expensive. > > In the PDP-9, each core of the core rope memory stores 64 bits, > unlike conventional read/write core memory, where each core stores > only a single bit. Core rope memory uses the core as a > transformer, and does not depend on the hysteresis loop of the core > nor attempt to change the direction of magnetization of the core. > There are 64 words of control store, so there are 64 wires. Each > of those wires goes through some of the 36 cores, and around > others. When a pulse is sent down a word line, in only the cores > that it passes through, it induces a pulse in a sense line. > > The same general technique was used for the lowest-level control > store of the HP 9100 calculator, and the program store of the > Apollo Guidance Computer. IBM used similar technology for the > "TROS" control store of some System/360 processors and peripheral > controllers. I was wondering whether core rope was meant there. Another place core rope was used was Wang 500 series calculators. The microcode core rope ROM is 2048 words of 42 bits/word, so 86,016 bits. The address decoding involves a largish circuit board filled with a solid bed of 2048 discrete diodes. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Feb 17 22:57:37 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 23:57:37 -0500 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <1361149838.14983.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361149838.14983.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5121B4C1.6030807@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/02/13 8:10 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 4:05 PM PST Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 17/02/13 6:18 PM, ChrMinhis Tofu wrote: >>> >>> I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion tower in a junk pile in a scrap pile a few years ago. I remember asking the list if anyone wanted me to retrieved it. There were no replies. >>> >> >> Damn, been looking for one forever. >> >> --T > > unless I'm mistaken you're in Australia. I live in Canada. But when I did live in Australia, I actually used an Aviion box - indirectly, anyway. It was an (AFP - "Helios"?) fileserver on DG/UX connected to Clariion disk array and absolutely whizbang gear for the time. > and that being the case don't feel too bad this was hardly a museum > quality piece. It's obvious rareness made me think someone could have > used parts. But I'll keep you in mind if I should come across another. > Thankyou. I have the DG/UX to run on it* but narrowly missed out (by a couple of weeks) on the corresponding hardware. --Toby * http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/4682172927/in/set-72157624233444734 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 18 00:13:14 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 23:13:14 -0700 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A local guy has an aviion he's been trying to sell on ebay for a while: He used to be a reseller for "mission critical systems", mostly government customers, so his prices tend to be high for collectors. However, lately his business has been transitioning, and I suspect he's starting to realize that he's paying lots of rent to store this stuff and his mission critical customers have dried up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 18 03:48:44 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:48:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > And you say that the Nova is a lot harder. I would say it's differnt, > not necessarily harder. Yes, there are a lot of compoents, but they are > all documented. Unliek the VT100 where you don't know the ROM contents DG used in-house part numbers, very much like IBM and HP did. But I haven't come across an equivalence list, so if you don't have the schematics, you're lost. There is the DG Components Guide, but you must be clever in figuring out the corresponding SN or whatever standard part number. Christian From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 18 08:28:46 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 08:28:46 -0600 Subject: DG Aviion Message-ID: <002701ce0de4$42bf4920$c83ddb60$@com> I have an old DG Aviion server here, has qty 4 Pentium Pro 200 chips. No idea what the model number is, sorry. Local pickup only. Plenty of 4.3GB SCSI hard drives to go in it. Probably still have some old memory to go in it. Cindy Croxton Kerrville, TX _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 09:26:14 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 09:26:14 -0600 Subject: QX-10 / terminal software Message-ID: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> Morning all, I thought I'd try and get the ol' Epson QX-10 running as a dumb terminal. AFAIK, there's nothing on the 'standard' set of disks to do this (e.g. valdocs has the 'mail' program which is aware of the serial port and which I think can talk via a direct link rather than a modem - but I think its functionality is all quite high-level and there's no 'terminal' mode). So... MEX looks like a possibility, and an overlay for the QX-10 seems to be available (although I'm not sure how much work is involved in merging them yet). Does anyone know of any other options[1] which will work with the QX-10's serial hardware? Or, does anyone happen to have a QX-10 enabled version of MEX archived already? [1] does CP/M abstract serial hardware into a set of common calls, or is that outside its scope? cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Feb 18 09:46:03 2013 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:46:03 -0500 Subject: DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <002701ce0de4$42bf4920$c83ddb60$@com> References: <002701ce0de4$42bf4920$c83ddb60$@com> Message-ID: <51224CBB.2010007@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/02/13 9:28 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have an old DG Aviion server here, has qty 4 Pentium Pro 200 chips. Thanks, but I'm only after the 88K. :) --Toby > > > Cindy Croxton > > Kerrville, TX > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 18 09:48:39 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 07:48:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > So... MEX looks like a possibility, and an overlay for the QX-10 seems to be > available (although I'm not sure how much work is involved in merging them > yet). Does anyone know of any other options[1] which will work with the > QX-10's serial hardware? Or, does anyone happen to have a QX-10 enabled > version of MEX archived already? > Both MEX and IMP (which I'd recommend over MEX) are VERY easy to configure for a new computer if you've got the serial overlay for your machine already. The docs are very clear and straightforward on how to do it. > [1] does CP/M abstract serial hardware into a set of common calls, or is that > outside its scope? CP/M itself doesn't directly address serial ports the way you're thinking - it knows about four (?) devices, RDR: PUN: CON: and LPT: (I _think_). Any serial communications in CP/M is most often done by the software talking directly to the serial hardware. That's why programs like MEX, IMP and the various BYE variants have "include" files that contain the code specific to the machine you're using them with. If you need any help, just yell. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 18 10:37:38 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:37:38 -0600 Subject: 3B2 software and docs, 3-4 boxes Message-ID: <005301ce0df6$43966a10$cac33e30$@com> Will the gent who emailed me that he wanted these please email me again with your address, etc. Very sorry, but your previous email got lost in the shuffle. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6110 - Release Date: 02/17/13 From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Feb 18 03:07:23 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:07:23 +0100 Subject: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) Message-ID: Could be interesting .... As I am not too far .... BUT ** IF ** system has Disk Pack Units ( Drives ). And, from the pics, I do not see any ??? Someone does ?? From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Feb 18 03:08:38 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:08:38 +0100 Subject: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) Message-ID: <1C8C40FDB30D4AF7B71016DB05FC0DD3@medion> Ebay help, please. How comes that things like that CANNOT BE FOUND thru EBAY Search(es ) ??? i.e. Take a part of the item description : "Wang VS7150" Do an Ebay search ..... and ( at least for me, from France ) You won't get any hit !!! Why ???? Is that an Ebay Bug ?? Is it known ?? ( Of course, it is NOT the first time that I come across that kind of Ebay bug, that is why I am calling for help ;-) ) From tingox at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 03:18:46 2013 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:18:46 +0100 Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) In-Reply-To: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:28 AM, Scott Quinn wrote: > Pulled it out, reseated the cables, checked the connections, plugged it into a big enough power supply, > and gave it another go. > > Spun up, head load or lock solenoid clicked, waited about 4 seconds (no sound of seeking), spin down. > Sounds like the problem might be somewhere in the head positioning or voice coil/drive. Maybe it is the same problem as with the Micropolis 1325: heads stuck because of rubber bumpers acting like glue? (Note: I haven't opened a CDC Wren, it might have totally different innards from the Micropolis 1325) If so, it is fixable, search the archives of this mailing list. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 05:22:04 2013 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:22:04 +1300 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:21:07 -0500 > From: Michael Thompson > To: cctech > Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > We need to fix the paper tape reader so we can load some of the diags. > We are a long way from connecting the TC-59 and the TU20. > I suspect that getting the TU20 working will be a challenge. How are you fixed for doc & spares? I have a TC59 on one of my pdp-15s - I have doc and I think I have some spare boards... Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org Mon Feb 18 09:51:39 2013 From: jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at crucible.dragonsweb.org) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 10:51:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed Message-ID: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote .. > Hi, > > I made some changes in my TCP/IP code to make it behave better when > packets are lost and it has to retransmit. The old code used to wait a > fixed amount of time before retrying, which was painfully slow on a > local connection. The new code is adaptive and should work much better > on a wide range of connections. > > If you'd like to help me test it I have my PCjr running the mTCP FTP > server with some old computer pictures, some software, and some text > files. (I'll add more during the day to keep it interesting.) You can > connect by going to the following address: > > ftp://96.42.84.69:2021/ Ok, I did a SITE STATS after I disconnected and it showed the server was lightly loaded (only me), so I went ahead and restarted wget. Will let it run and note any more hangs. later, jbdigriz From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 18 12:41:26 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:41:26 +0100 Subject: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) In-Reply-To: <1C8C40FDB30D4AF7B71016DB05FC0DD3@medion> References: <1C8C40FDB30D4AF7B71016DB05FC0DD3@medion> Message-ID: <002501ce0e07$92c27320$b8475960$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens GerardCJAT > Verzonden: maandag 18 februari 2013 10:09 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Wang VS7150, VS7010 and 3270s on eBay (London, UK) > > Ebay help, please. > How comes that things like that CANNOT BE FOUND thru EBAY Search(es ) > ??? > i.e. Take a part of the item description : "Wang VS7150" > Do an Ebay search ..... and ( at least for me, from France ) You won't get any > hit !!! > Why ???? > Is that an Ebay Bug ?? Is it known ?? > ( Of course, it is NOT the first time that I come across that kind of Ebay bug, > that is why I am calling for help ;-) ) Because this is listed in the UK and the seller says he only ships to the UK. That's why you can't see it if you're not looking at ebay.co.uk Most sellers who are listing on local ebay will ship to abroad if you ask them. I always look at other ebay sites when I'm looking for something special. -Rik From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 18 13:24:27 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:24:27 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433A4AD@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > DG used in-house part numbers, very much like IBM and HP did. But I > haven't come across an equivalence list, so if you don't have the > schematics, you're lost. I vaguely seem to recall I had a DG equivalence list in the 90's. Or maybe confusing it with something else and my memory is just a red herring. Maybe Carl Friend has it? Poly Paks always had lots of house-numbered TTL, I'm guessing floor sweepings from DG :-) When I had to read DG schematics, if the part didn't have a standard number on it, it was usually pretty obvious from pinout or other parameters, what the standard part was. By the time the Eclipse came along, those were just chock full with bipolar PROM's. Tim From jon at jonworld.com Mon Feb 18 13:31:59 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 14:31:59 -0500 Subject: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433A4AD@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433A4AD@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Feb 18, 2013, at 2:24 PM, "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > I vaguely seem to recall I had a DG equivalence list in the 90's. Or maybe confusing it with something else and my memory is just a red herring. Maybe Carl Friend has it? What was the system that was marketed as "mainframe power in the size of a pizza box" (or similar slogan?) It was a DG. I remember the ad having a lasting impression on me as a kid. (Yes, I know I'm of the relatively younger set here.) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 18 13:54:29 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:54:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 18, 13 09:26:14 am Message-ID: > [1] does CP/M abstract serial hardware into a set of common calls, or is > that outside its scope? Not really. Often, on more recent CP/M machines, the PUN: and RDR@: drvies were mapped to a serial port, but the funcitonality provided was not enough for a serious terminal emulator. In genral CP/M comms progrmas had to me modified for each particualr machine. Was Kermit ever ported ot the QX10? I would be suprised if not. And most microcomptuer kermits act as a terminal emulator too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 18 13:37:01 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:37:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 3B2 Winchester (ST4376N/CDC Wren) In-Reply-To: <8CFDB860BC4F5A8-1854-52C80@webmail-m169.sysops.aol.com> from "Scott Quinn" at Feb 17, 13 07:28:45 pm Message-ID: > Pulled it out, reseated the cables, checked the connections, plugged it int= > o a big enough power supply, > and gave it another go. > > Spun up, head load or lock solenoid clicked, waited about 4 seconds (no sou= > nd of seeking), spin down. > Sounds like the problem might be somewhere in the head positioning or voice= > coil/drive. It's also possible the heads are jammed, say stuck to the end stop. It's normally fairly easy to identify yhr positioner coil connections to the HDA. Most likely it's a fleciprint, but with wider traces than those for the heads. Actually, the OEM manuals for soem CDC drives give the pinotus of the intenral conencotrs (!). If you an find these connections, connect a voltmeter across them. Power up. Do you get a fairly high (several volts at least) DC voltage across them once the drive has spun up? If so, then it would appear it's trying to drive the positioner, but the heads are not moving. If not, then a possible fault is the power amplifier that drives the positioend coil. This will eiterh be discrete power transsitors or an audio amplifier IC. Of coruse the drive may never be tryign to move the eads because it thinks the platters are not spinning fast enough. -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 18 14:40:42 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 12:40:42 -0800 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> References: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> I connected using ncftp and doing a "get -R *.*". At some point I got the rather puzzling message: "tar: This does not look like a tar archive tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors" This happened just before the descent to the INCOMING directory. Any idea of what that's about? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 16:53:26 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:53:26 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> On 02/17/2013 09:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical > information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. Hmm, what were the specs on a 3400? That sounds more like the re-branded Unisys numbering; all the NCR Towers I was aware of had 3-digit model numbers (unless by "NCR tower" you don't mean "NCR Tower" of course :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 17:04:48 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:04:48 -0600 Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> On 02/18/2013 09:48 AM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 18 Feb 2013, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> So... MEX looks like a possibility, and an overlay for the QX-10 seems to >> be available (although I'm not sure how much work is involved in merging >> them yet). Does anyone know of any other options[1] which will work with >> the QX-10's serial hardware? Or, does anyone happen to have a QX-10 >> enabled version of MEX archived already? >> > Both MEX and IMP (which I'd recommend over MEX) are VERY easy to configure > for a new computer if you've got the serial overlay for your machine > already. The docs are very clear and straightforward on how to do it. Aha, thanks - I wasn't aware of IMP (one of the problems of looking at e.g. the oakland FTP archives is that you pretty much have to know the name of the thing that you're looking for in advance). >> [1] does CP/M abstract serial hardware into a set of common calls, or is >> that outside its scope? > > CP/M itself doesn't directly address serial ports the way you're thinking - > it knows about four (?) devices, RDR: PUN: CON: and LPT: (I _think_). > > Any serial communications in CP/M is most often done by the software > talking directly to the serial hardware. Yes, I wasn't remembering anything in any docs about there being direct support within CP/M - but OTOH I suspect that a lot of CP/M boxes were pressed into service as direct-connect or dial-up terminals for other systems, so I figured there may have been some OS support in there. > If you need any help, just yell. Thanks. I've just been looking at Valdocs' 'mail' utility and it doesn't seem like it supports direction connection at all (there's a "person-to-person" option, but it still expects to talk to a modem rather than a host via a null-modem cable). So, it looks like the only way to get code onto the machine is to assemble and write a disk image to floppy on a modern PC, which is a bit of a PITA (not least because I have no spare 5.25" drives on this side of the Atlantic, so it means dismantling the QX-10 in order to use one of its drives) cheers Jules From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 14:35:39 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:35:39 -0300 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 or less for series 800 References: <8CFD82CF83EB00F-171C-142C0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874CDDD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > I have 10.20 in my personal collection, as well as 9.. These > are for my 817S, which was given to me as a go-away gift by a PPoE. I What is a PPoE? :o) > haven't had the time to set it up since (going on 10 years now). Hmmmm (looking to my 9000/210) :o( > I don't want to give or sell the media, but if there's an easy way to > dup it (I don't know whether it's readable by Windows or a Unix clone), > I'm happy to send you an ISO or a CD. Try Alchool 120% (shareware)? From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 17:10:02 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 17:10:02 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <1361143117.77302.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.ya hoo.com> References: <1361143117.77302.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5122b56f.4544ec0a.5788.ffffa49c@mx.google.com> I actually had an Aviion 66 and a ?33? available at work. No one wanted it. It's probably gone now. Not Motorolla based though. It was a box full of Pentium Pros, IIRC. At 05:18 PM 2/17/2013, you wrote: >I saw what I believe was a Motorola based Aviion >tower in a junk pile in a scrap pile a few years >ago. I remember asking the list if anyone wanted >me to retrieved it. There were no replies. 71 . [Computing] Hit the philistines three times over the head with the Elisp reference manual. --petonic at hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From RolexTM at gmx.de Mon Feb 18 17:24:15 2013 From: RolexTM at gmx.de (alex) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:24:15 +0100 Subject: DG Nova repair etc. Message-ID: <5122B81F.6030401@gmx.de> Hi all, Tony, thanks for your input, we will check the PSU on Thursday when we get to the machine again. as Christian pointed out, the problem is not so much the pure amount of components but the puzzle game of identifying them since they have been relabled. Whats definitely worse when comparing to out old VT100 is that the DEC manual has one complete definitive service manual that covers all schemes and logic. For our NOVA i failed to find a comparable thing. I have constantly to go back an forward through all kinds of docs. Again I may be unable to find a "real" service manual, if you know any let me know ;) Bruce, I am looking forward hearing from you. It would be great if you come up with anything helpful before Thursday so we can check everything out. Dwight, we are currently missing the exact schematics for our machine. I hope thats where Bruce comes into play. The only real schematics i found were for the NOVA 2, and a quick glimpse showed that the machine is different (at least the layout of parts). None the less we will keep our eye on the clock(s), i guess it will do no harm and make our scopes and logic analyzers happy ;) From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 17:37:19 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 18:37:19 -0500 Subject: HP-UX 10.20 or less for series 800 In-Reply-To: References: <8CFD82CF83EB00F-171C-142C0@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA011874CDDD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <212E63E6-C91B-4463-A4AB-8527D8DDF9F7@gmail.com> On Feb 18, 2013, at 15:35, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I have 10.20 in my personal collection, as well as 9.. These >> are for my 817S, which was given to me as a go-away gift by a PPoE. I > > What is a PPoE? :o) Previous Place of Employment? >> I don't want to give or sell the media, but if there's an easy way to >> dup it (I don't know whether it's readable by Windows or a Unix clone), >> I'm happy to send you an ISO or a CD. > > Try Alchool 120% (shareware)? And on Unix, dd probably works fine. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 18:06:57 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:06:57 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> On 2/18/2013 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/17/2013 09:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical >> information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. > > Hmm, what were the specs on a 3400? That sounds more like the > re-branded Unisys numbering; all the NCR Towers I was aware of had > 3-digit model numbers (unless by "NCR tower" you don't mean "NCR > Tower" of course :-) > > cheers > > Jules > The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' by what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the right here http://goo.gl/r3HTl From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 18 18:18:44 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:18:44 +0000 Subject: Data General Nova Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B7433A554@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> >> DG used in-house part numbers, very much like IBM and HP did. But I >> haven't come across an equivalence list, so if you don't have the >> schematics, you're lost. > I vaguely seem to recall I had a DG equivalence list in the 90's. Aha! Found a binder labeled "Components Guide" which has an equivalence list for some discretes in the back, and enough plagiarism from the standard IC manuals in the chip descriptions to help find the SSI/MSI original chips. Same thing on the web at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dg/015-000028-03_DG_Components_Guide_Oct75.pdf From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 19:07:20 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:07:20 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> On 02/18/2013 06:06 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/18/2013 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 02/17/2013 09:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical >>> information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. >> >> Hmm, what were the specs on a 3400? That sounds more like the re-branded >> Unisys numbering; all the NCR Towers I was aware of had 3-digit model >> numbers (unless by "NCR tower" you don't mean "NCR Tower" of course :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > > The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large > skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses > multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' by > what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the right > here http://goo.gl/r3HTl OK - I had a 32/700 (it's parked at NMoC these days, but I expect it's just too big and heavy to ever ship it to my place in the US), which looks like the 32/600 in the far right of your photo. Biggest darn single PCB I've ever seen in any machine, I think! 68030, 32MB RAM (not including ECC), Ethernet, couple of 8-line terminal boards, SCSI, and 2 x 300MB disks. I don't know how much commonality there would be between the two, although it would seem good manufacturing sense to share parts and functionality as much as possible. Does your system show any signs of life at all? I *think* my system needed the large internal battery connected (and vaguely-chargeable) before it would fire up, even though that was supposedly only there as a memory back-up during power-fail conditions. I've also found some old emails which suggest that I had to replace a triac and resistor near the AC input in my machine's PSU at some point (it's been too long that I don't recall if the machine was DoA when I got it, or if the PSU failed later) cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Feb 18 20:09:50 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 20:09:50 -0600 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> References: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5122DEEE.1060404@brutman.com> Thanks everybody for all of the traffic. It's still going if you want to take another whack at it. The current stats are: lftp 192.168.2.134:/incoming> site stats 211-Stats: Started: Sun Feb 17 11:56:14 2013, DOS version: 3.30 Sessions: 603 Active: 1 Timeouts: 107 LIST: 584 NLST: 21 RETR: 2093 STOR: 19 STOU: 0 APPE: 0 Tcp Sockets used: 2 free: 18 Tcp: Sent 188543 Rcvd 127550 Retrans 2393 Seq/Ack errs 613 Dropped 5 Packets: Sent: 191880 Rcvd: 132702 Dropped: 9 LowFreeBufCount: 0 211 OK On the "Sessions" line a timeout is a client that was connected and then went idle or disappeared for 3 minutes. The client could have been connected but after going idle for that long they get dropped. LIST and NLST are directory listings, which are really a data transfer. Combine those with the RETRs (file retrieves) and you have close to 2700 data connections being opened. Maybe not all successful, but I'll have to wait to review the logs to find out. On the TCP line the retransmit rate looks to be 1.3%. That is higher than what it has been in the past but the new code is a lot more aggressive about detecting timeouts and retransmitting early. (The previous code used a fixed 4 or 5 second timeout, which was a slow and agonizing problem on a local network or broadband connections.) You can tell by the dropped TCP packets and the dropped packets at the packet driver level that I overran the machine with incoming data. Something I was using to upload new files probably was not respecting the TCP window size; I need to hunt that down and figure out what did it. There have been some reports of dropped connections or connections refused. The machine is setup for 9 simultaneous control connections and 20 sockets total. That allows for most people to have a control connection and a data connection at the same time, but on occasion it's possible to run it out of resource and wind up with the dreaded "425 - Please try again later" message. With one data connection active the best bandwidth that can be expected is around 50KB/sec, so with multiple connections the bandwidth per connection drops pretty quickly. Luckily most people are not all pressing the "get" button at the same time. Chuck - I don't use ncftp, but that looks like the symptoms of a broken socket connection to me. I have no idea why your client feels the need to invoke tar though. There is nothing in the incoming directory that should set it off. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 18 20:40:45 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:40:45 -0700 Subject: Tektronix part number equivalents (was: Data General Nova) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > DG used in-house part numbers, very much like IBM and HP did. But I > haven't come across an equivalence list, so if you don't have the > schematics, you're lost. There is the DG Components Guide, but you must be > clever in figuring out the corresponding SN or whatever standard part > number. Tektronix did something similar. For parts sourced from another manufacturer, they have the mfr's part number, but for parts made in-house at Tektronix that were identical in function and specification to other manufacturer's parts (like an op-amp or whatnot), they only list the Tektronix part number. This makes it hard to know what is a suitable replacement part, given that parts can't be sourced from Tektronix anymore. Does anyone know of an equivalent parts type document/listing fo Tektronix parts? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 21:27:11 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:27:11 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> On 2/18/2013 5:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > OK - I had a 32/700 (it's parked at NMoC these days, but I expect it's > just too big and heavy to ever ship it to my place in the US), which > looks like the 32/600 in the far right of your photo. Biggest darn > single PCB I've ever seen in any machine, I think! 68030, 32MB RAM > (not including ECC), Ethernet, couple of 8-line terminal boards, SCSI, > and 2 x 300MB disks. > Mine is huge too. I bet they aren't so different. > I don't know how much commonality there would be between the two, > although it would seem good manufacturing sense to share parts and > functionality as much as possible. > > Does your system show any signs of life at all? I *think* my system > needed the large internal battery connected (and vaguely-chargeable) > before it would fire up, even though that was supposedly only there as > a memory back-up during power-fail conditions. The power supply does show some activity when plugged in. It puts out +6.75v to the battery and the +5v test point is up. None of the other test points show anything. There is a switch on the PS for battery backup power to ram. In the on position the PS fan spins but, I don't see any other test points coming up. The +5 is getting to the power switch and the switch is working fine. The power switch connects by ribbon cable to the back plane. The back plane is completely covered by a steel plate on the sides and bottom. Without taking apart the whole machine I can't see where it is actually going. This originally had a bad battery with corroded terminals. I bought a new one off ebay but, I never really checked it. It's some no name Chinese thing. I probably need to see if it is actually fully charging and holding it. I just plugged it in and checked and it is charging up slowly anyway. I'll actually check the volts this time but, I left it plugged in about 7 hours before and it still wouldn't start up when I tried. Maybe it's a bum battery though. > > I've also found some old emails which suggest that I had to replace a > triac and resistor near the AC input in my machine's PSU at some point > (it's been too long that I don't recall if the machine was DoA when I > got it, or if the PSU failed later) > This one was working fine before being turned off for many years. When I turned it on again for the first time nothing different happened than does now. No smoke or any sounds. Just nothing at all when I move the switch from off to on. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Feb 18 21:45:09 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:45:09 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5122F545.3030600@gmail.com> On 2/18/2013 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: > The power supply does show some activity when plugged in. It puts out > +6.75v to the battery and the +5v test point is up. None of the other > test points show anything. There is a switch on the PS for battery > backup power to ram. In the on position the PS fan spins but, I don't > see any other test points coming up. The +5 is getting to the power > switch and the switch is working fine. I just went and checked because that was all from memory and it is actual +12 getting to the power switch. The +5 test point comes up when the battery ram backup is turned on which makes sense. When I turn the power switch on the +12 at the switch drops to zero. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Feb 18 23:59:19 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 06:59:19 +0100 Subject: IBM SR10 up for auction Message-ID: <512314B7.1000907@bluewin.ch> Up for auction at a local site : an IBM 10SR harddisk. Might be rare enough to mention here. What was it used in anyway ? no affiliation, too expensive in my opinion, etc etc, but there might be people looking for exactly this. Jos From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Feb 19 00:03:41 2013 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:03:41 +0100 Subject: IBM SR10 up for auction In-Reply-To: <512314B7.1000907@bluewin.ch> References: <512314B7.1000907@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <512315BD.5010904@bluewin.ch> On 02/19/2013 06:59 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > Up for auction at a local site : an IBM 10SR harddisk. > > Might be rare enough to mention here. What was it used in anyway ? The actual link might be of use : http://www.ricardo.ch/kaufen/computer-und-netzwerk/sonstiges/ibm-festplatten/v/an703726252/?ABTestedFeatureKey=57 Jos From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Feb 19 00:05:46 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 22:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: IDing mircobee GUI from video Message-ID: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Can anybody ID the gui in the "Microbee -??The Evolutionary Computers" video [1] @ the 7:20 and 8:44 mark? [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0fM5DJ4Dw --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks? From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 19 01:03:01 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:03:01 +0100 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0fe330de7b5078c4abe616811119170b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 2/18/2013 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 02/17/2013 09:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> I wish I could get that NCR tower running. If anyone has any technical >>> information on Series 3400 boxes I'd love to know. >> >> Hmm, what were the specs on a 3400? That sounds more like the >> re-branded Unisys numbering; all the NCR Towers I was aware of had >> 3-digit model numbers (unless by "NCR tower" you don't mean "NCR >> Tower" of course :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > > The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large > skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses > multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' > by what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the > right here http://goo.gl/r3HTl > That sounds indeed like a NCR Tower XP to me. I used to work on those and in order to complete a project in time I had one at home for 2 months. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 19 01:23:06 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 23:23:06 -0800 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <5122DEEE.1060404@brutman.com> References: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> <5122DEEE.1060404@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5123285A.60409@sydex.com> On 02/18/2013 06:09 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Chuck - I don't use ncftp, but that looks like the symptoms of a broken > socket connection to me. I have no idea why your client feels the need > to invoke tar though. There is nothing in the incoming directory that > should set it off. Mike, NCFTP has been around for years--it has both *nix and Windows versions. It has many extensions, one of them being a recursive directory crawl. So "get -R " gets files and crawls the directory tree. The message happens when the root directory has finished and the first file from the next directory is fetched. I can make it happen over and over again. Would you like a log? I think NCFTP can get one. This was invoked from Linux; I can also try it from Windows. --Chuck From 74s181 at gmx.de Mon Feb 18 15:15:36 2013 From: 74s181 at gmx.de (Andre Schaefer) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 22:15:36 +0100 Subject: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512299F8.1080700@gmx.de> Am 18.02.2013 10:48, schrieb Christian Corti: > On Sun, 17 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> And you say that the Nova is a lot harder. I would say it's differnt, >> not necessarily harder. Yes, there are a lot of compoents, but they are >> all documented. Unliek the VT100 where you don't know the ROM contents > > DG used in-house part numbers, very much like IBM and HP did. But I > haven't come across an equivalence list, so if you don't have the > schematics, you're lost. There is the DG Components Guide, but you must > be clever in figuring out the corresponding SN or whatever standard part > number. > > Christian It's not that bad. The DG Components Guide helps a lot. Beside that, many boards have numerous components with standard numbers. Only a few are tricky because high drive strength or high speed is required. Andre --- 74s181.blogspot.com From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Feb 19 01:26:15 2013 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:26:15 +1100 Subject: IDing mircobee GUI from video In-Reply-To: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C06758D-9C1A-4755-9D12-63CA570B3401@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 19/02/2013, at 5:05 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > Can anybody ID the gui in the "Microbee - The Evolutionary Computers" video [1] @ the 7:20 and 8:44 mark? > > > [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0fM5DJ4Dw According to http://www.sleeper.apana.org.au/microbee/ it was some sort of Unix clone. Interesting video though - I had an original MicroBee which I built from a kit but swapped it about 10 years ago for an Epson PX-8. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 01:43:39 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2013 23:43:39 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <0fe330de7b5078c4abe616811119170b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <0fe330de7b5078c4abe616811119170b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51232D2B.5030807@gmail.com> On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large > skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses > multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' > by what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the > right here http://goo.gl/r3HTl > > That sounds indeed like a NCR Tower XP to me. I used to work on those > and in order to complete a project in time I had one at home for 2 months. > > Ed > It must have been fun to compile on one of these. I imagine most of those 2 months was was doing something else while waiting on it to finish. From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 19 02:33:46 2013 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:33:46 +0100 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <51232D2B.5030807@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <0fe330de7b5078c4abe616811119170b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <51232D2B.5030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <70220466363b9aba516a0ab1c1855ac2.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large >> skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses >> multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' >> by what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the >> right here http://goo.gl/r3HTl >> >> That sounds indeed like a NCR Tower XP to me. I used to work on those >> and in order to complete a project in time I had one at home for 2 >> months. >> >> Ed >> > > It must have been fun to compile on one of these. I imagine most of > those 2 months was was doing something else while waiting on it to finish. > Uhhhmmm, yes. Some of the work could be done in separate parts so only a handful of files needed to be compiled. At the end of a day (usually around 01:00 - 02:00 in the night), I would start a 'make clean compile load test' command to do a full compile, build & test of the stuff. That cycle took about 6 - 8 hours, just in time before I got started again. Ed all the code. That took about 5 - 6 hours to complete -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 19 04:04:48 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 11:04:48 +0100 Subject: Tek 4317 Message-ID: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> Hi all, I was wondering about the Tektronix 4317 machine. The only information I'm able to find online is the catalog introducing it: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/\ 44xx/4300_Series_1988_Catalog.pdf The rest inside that bitsavers PDF (or Bits corner for that matter) don't even mention the 4300 series. I gather it should run UTek 3.1, but where could I try to find the media (which is 5.25" floppy I think) for that O/S? Does anyone know of the connections which can be made on such a machine? Kind regards, If it has Reiche wheels or ------------------ a skirt, you can't http://ls-al.eu/~reiche afford it. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 07:44:16 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 07:44:16 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <51232D2B.5030807@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <0fe330de7b5078c4abe616811119170b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <51232D2B.5030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512381B0.2010302@gmail.com> On 02/19/2013 01:43 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/18/2013 11:03 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> The label says, Series: 3400 Model:2114 and nothing else. It's a large >> skinny steel tower the a massive motherboard with a 68010 on it and uses >> multibus boards for all the rest. I think it was called a 'NCR Tower XP' >> by what I can find through google. It looks like the second from the >> right here http://goo.gl/r3HTl >> >> That sounds indeed like a NCR Tower XP to me. I used to work on those >> and in order to complete a project in time I had one at home for 2 months. >> >> Ed >> > > It must have been fun to compile on one of these. I imagine most of those 2 > months was was doing something else while waiting on it to finish. My 700 with its '030 wasn't too bad, though. It was used by IXI as a development host for their X.desktop software, so it had a full X release on there and yet was still reasonably capable. I suppose raw number-crunching performance was comparable to PCs of only a year or two later, but the Towers were packed with cache and local processors on the various boards, so real-world multi-user performance was still pretty good. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 08:19:14 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:19:14 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512389E2.8080709@gmail.com> On 02/18/2013 09:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Does your system show any signs of life at all? I *think* my system >> needed the large internal battery connected (and vaguely-chargeable) >> before it would fire up, even though that was supposedly only there as a >> memory back-up during power-fail conditions. > The power supply does show some activity when plugged in. It puts out > +6.75v to the battery and the +5v test point is up. None of the other test > points show anything. There is a switch on the PS for battery backup power > to ram. In the on position the PS fan spins but, I don't see any other test > points coming up. The +5 is getting to the power switch and the switch is > working fine. > > The power switch connects by ribbon cable to the back plane. The back plane > is completely covered by a steel plate on the sides and bottom. Without > taking apart the whole machine I can't see where it is actually going. Have you disconnected that ribbon cable at any time? I've found an old email which suggested that - at least with my system - there was a factory assembly error with that cable, and one of the plugs was put on backwards. The plugs are keyed, but one end (and I suspect it was the end nearest to the power switch) had to be forced into its socket backwards for the system to run. When I disconnected that cable for some reason (probably to remove the front panel so I could get at the drives and image them) I naturally put the cable back "the right way round", and got myself a dead system. After doing some head-scratching and tracing with a meter I discovered that it had to be connected backwards for things to work. Just a thought - I don't know if my system was unique, or if this affected a small batch of them, or if all Towers are like this. > This originally had a bad battery with corroded terminals. I bought a new > one off ebay but, I never really checked it. It's some no name Chinese > thing. I probably need to see if it is actually fully charging and holding > it. I just plugged it in and checked and it is charging up slowly anyway. > I'll actually check the volts this time but, I left it plugged in about 7 > hours before and it still wouldn't start up when I tried. Maybe it's a bum > battery though. 7 hours seems too long; someone familiar with these machines once told me that with a totally flat battery they sometimes need a half hour or so if sitting before they'll spring into life. cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Feb 19 08:25:36 2013 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:25:36 -0600 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <5123285A.60409@sydex.com> References: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> <5122DEEE.1060404@brutman.com> <5123285A.60409@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51238B60.7050601@brutman.com> Oh, I'm aware of it. But I use wget or lftp when I want to be recursive, Filezilla for testing with a typical GUI client, MS Win XP command line for testing with a primitive client, at least three different browsers (IE, FireFox, and Chrome), two different file manager/browsers on Android, and the straight FTP command line clients on any Linux box I have laying around in the house at the moment. You get the idea - there are almost as many clients as people. I even got a report over at VC forums that somebody used curl to mirror it. Somebody else we both know tried using straight Telnet and sending raw commands, but probably had problems getting the data transfers setup. If it is easy I would like a log - this email address is fine for it. I can also recreate it here if I need to dig further. But I still can't imagine how this is anything but a client problem at this point. Maybe something I'm doing is confusing it, but that's a badly behaved client if it just starts automatically invoking tar for you. Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 08:32:54 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:32:54 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <5122F545.3030600@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> <5122F545.3030600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51238D16.7060505@gmail.com> On 02/18/2013 09:45 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/18/2013 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> The power supply does show some activity when plugged in. It puts out >> +6.75v to the battery and the +5v test point is up. None of the other >> test points show anything. There is a switch on the PS for battery backup >> power to ram. In the on position the PS fan spins but, I don't see any >> other test points coming up. The +5 is getting to the power switch and >> the switch is working fine. > > I just went and checked because that was all from memory and it is actual > +12 getting to the power switch. The +5 test point comes up when the > battery ram backup is turned on which makes sense. When I turn the power > switch on the +12 at the switch drops to zero. Hmm. I doubt that +12 is used for much on the PCBs - probably the serial line drivers but not a lot else. The big +12V draw is probably the hard drive(s). I can't remember for sure where the console plugs into now, but I think it's the main PCB which contains the CPU (was it called PMC in NCR-speak?) - in which case, maybe see what happens if you disconnect the power to the hard disk(s) and pull all of the boards except the main one and the memory; I expect that the machine should be able to do something with that minimum configuration. cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 10:32:20 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:32:20 +0000 Subject: IDing mircobee GUI from video In-Reply-To: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 19 February 2013 06:05, Tom Sparks wrote: > Can anybody ID the gui in the "Microbee - The Evolutionary Computers" video [1] @ the 7:20 and 8:44 mark? Interesting. Not sure which model of Microbee the video is talking about, but then, I don't know anything much about Microbees. It resembles GEM, and the older Microbees ran CP/M on a Z80 - could it have been a custom demo put together with GSX+ for the video? That might explain the family resemblance, possibly? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Feb 19 11:02:29 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:02:29 +0100 Subject: russian Elektronika E60 PDP11 Clone, tape Drive CM5300.01.. Message-ID: <20130219170229.GA76781@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi all, I'm trying to ask here, since searching the russian internet and asking russians not helped me at all. I do have an craddle with something of an 11/03 clone and a RX01/02 double disk drive. The computer is an Elektronika E60 and looks like this: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:E60M.JPG?uselang=ru This is the CPU card (my own picture): http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/E60/E60-01.jpg the pink chips at to are dynamix 4kx1 RAM like the Intel 2107 the CPU itself is on the right side, a RALU, the Control Unit and 3 Microcode ROMS. That all on a Quad size board, but altough it is a QBUS nothing fits to a real DEC Machine since all Dimensions are metric, including the connectors. I have this beast running, with FODOS which is in fact RT11 and some RT11v4.x andRT11V5. Variants. Now comes my Problem: http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/E60/I17.jpg This is a tape controller for drives like this: http://www.tis.kz/cm53001.php (russian site) at this site there is an other controller connected, a more modern one with an 8080 CPU and two 8255s on it. As you can see the cable to the drive is directly soldered to the board. All kind of russian Sources are listing my Controller Board MC2702 or I17 (with a cyrillic letter 'i') as one of two possibilities to connect the CM5300.01 drive to this computer, the other possibility is is an entire craddle full of simple TTL chips that must be connected to the E60. My I17 or MC2707 controller has four AM2901 compatible chips (K1804VS1) and a AM2910 (K1804VU4), some microcode ROMS etc. The two 40 pole connectors are electrically connected in parallel, maybe to connect two drives. There is a similar controller to mine: http://andy.sumy.ua/old_computers/world_museum/dvk/DVK_Type.jpg with a single 50 pin connector for the drives and the same AM29x series chips on it. For this controller the schematics are exiting..what doesn't help me that much, since because that is a microprogrammed CPU all functions of the interface, what is using different ICs, are depending on the microprogramm. Ther are single 7474 Flipflops where D is connected to the drive connector for example, I'll never find out what kind of input this may be w/o some dokumentation. At least the ROMs are socketed but to find out what happens I had to find out the complete schematic and then dissassembling Microcode... :-| The russians are listing that controller as standard, but no one knew something about it, there is no documentation available anid no one in russia seems to have such a beast. (two german friends of mine have two other boards but waiting if I can come up knowing how to use them..) The controller is listening on standard addresses on the bus (don't ask me for now, it's a while since I've checked this) and it seems to react to a reset command, seems to be alive... Please guys, I' looking fo any documentation about this thing or at least for the pinout of the cable to connect it to an CM5300.01 (bulgarian) 9 Track drive. (Should have 3 connectors at the other end so far as I know). I've searching for over a year now, hope someone from one of the other countries behind the iron curtain before is listening here and can help.. Please help! Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 11:14:46 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:14:46 -0700 Subject: IDing mircobee GUI from video In-Reply-To: References: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > It resembles GEM, and the older Microbees ran CP/M on a Z80 - could it > have been a custom demo put together with GSX+ for the video? That > might explain the family resemblance, possibly? I was going to suggest GEM as well. The other thing to keep in mind is that lots of people homebrewed their own GUI system at this time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 11:24:41 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:24:41 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > I was wondering about the Tektronix 4317 machine. You have one? > The only information I'm > able to find online is the catalog introducing it: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/\ > 44xx/4300_Series_1988_Catalog.pdf It was discontinued the following year; or at least it isn't listed in the 1989 catalog. The '89 catalog lists 4335, 4336, 4337, 4324, 4325 and 4301 workstations. > Does anyone know of the connections which can be made on such a machine? Based on the PDF, it looks like it has standard serial, parallel, ethernet and SCSI connections. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 19 11:31:11 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:31:11 -0800 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> On 2/19/13 9:24 AM, Richard wrote: > In article <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256 at ls-al.eu>, > Sander Reiche writes: > >> I was wondering about the Tektronix 4317 machine. > > You have one? > someone's got one http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/computers-en-software/sun-sgi-en-unix/m645156345-tektronix-4317-unix-mini-computer.html go after it while you can From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 11:55:14 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:55:14 -0500 Subject: Tek 4317 Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Sander Reiche wrote: > > I was wondering about the Tektronix 4317 machine. The only information I'm > able to find online is the catalog introducing it: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/\ > 44xx/4300_Series_1988_Catalog.pdf > The rest inside that bitsavers PDF (or Bits corner for that matter) don't > even > mention the 4300 series. > Wow...what a great machine. I spent some time with Smalltalk on one in the before-times. Really advanced, well made little box for the time (and expensive). > I gather it should run UTek 3.1, but where could I try to find the media > (which > is 5.25" floppy I think) for that O/S? > I'm afraid I don't know what the last UTek was for that box, but 3.1 is a reasonable guess. UTek did come on QIC tapes (which is what we used); I never loaded it from floppies or saw a floppy distro. That said, most of my UTek stick time was on later versions and later hardware (XD88 workstations). I can't imagine where one would find the install media these days other than lucking onto someone with a similar machine. I vaguely recall that all 4xxx machines could be loaded from the same distro media, but I can't confirm that. That said, if you do find someone with a working system, you could clone the drives. They're SCSI, and 'dd' just fine. > Does anyone know of the connections which can be made on such a machine? > Not sure exactly what you mean by "connections", but I'm pretty sure the one we had had ethernet, serial, PIO, and SCSI. And the video output of course. Good luck with it. I'd love to have one running Smalltalk and/or Lisp. KJ From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Tue Feb 19 12:20:15 2013 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 04:50:15 +1030 Subject: IDing mircobee GUI from video In-Reply-To: References: <1361253946.37496.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5123C25F.6040309@kaput.homeunix.org> On 20/02/13 03:02, Liam Proven wrote: > Interesting. Not sure which model of Microbee the video is talking > about, but then, I don't know anything much about Microbees. The video mentioned the machine is a Microbee Gamma. A quick Google search comes up with this: http://www.thepcmuseum.com/appliedtechnology/Gamma/ Seems it's a 68000 based UNIX workstation which never went into production. -Alexis From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 12:37:38 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 11:37:38 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <5123B6DF.3030201 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 2/19/13 9:24 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256 at ls-al.eu>, > > Sander Reiche writes: > > > >> I was wondering about the Tektronix 4317 machine. > > > > You have one? > > > > someone's got one > > http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/computers-en-software/sun-sgi-en-unix/m645156345- tektronix-4317-unix-mini-computer.html > > go after it while you can Unfortunately, shipping things from Europe to Salt Lake City is prohibitively expensive for me... Hopefully someone in the Netherlands will grab it. It doesn't appear far from Maastricht. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 19 12:45:53 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:45:53 +0100 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201302191845.r1JIjrca005509@ls-al.eu> Al Kossow wrote: > > someone's got one > > http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/computers-en-software/sun-sgi-en-unix/m645156345-tektronix-4317-unix-mini-computer.html > > go after it while you can > That's the one I'm after, but considering I couldn't find that much info online and it still is quite a drive away, I was trying to gather as much info as I could beforehand ;) re, Sander From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 19 12:47:52 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:47:52 +0100 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> Ken Seefried wrote: > > > Does anyone know of the connections which can be made on such a machine? > > > > Not sure exactly what you mean by "connections", but I'm pretty sure the > one we had had ethernet, serial, PIO, and SCSI. And the video output of > course. > I was wondering about that video output. What kind is it? "Standard" or something extremely proprietary? re, Sander From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 19 12:57:42 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:57:42 -0800 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5123CB26.6010304@bitsavers.org> On 2/19/13 10:37 AM, Richard wrote: > Unfortunately, shipping things from Europe to Salt Lake City is > prohibitively expensive for me... > sort of related http://www.ebay.com/itm/300857540917 hand labeled "Property of Steve Chadly" apparently, this is a dedicated 16032 graphics board http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r9kuRwh5Uw0J:www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-stewart/4/37a/a57+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a Sr. Firmware Engineer Tektronix Privately Held; 1001-5000 employees; DHR; Electrical/Electronic Manufacturing industry October 1983 ? August 1984 (11 months) Firmware for dedicated NS 16032 based display processor board in the Tek 6130 graphics workstation product line. Diagnostics, bootstrap, multi-processor IPC, VT-100 emulator, and low-end vector graphics and raster operations API. Simplified Tektronix variant of the Berkeley 4.3 kernel running as an embedded OS. New hardware bring up and debug. Manufacturing test jig development. Runtime BIOS and unix display primitives library development. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 13:30:48 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:30:48 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <5123CB26.6010304@bitsavers.org> References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> <5123CB26.6010304@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <5123CB26.6010304 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 2/19/13 10:37 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Unfortunately, shipping things from Europe to Salt Lake City is > > prohibitively expensive for me... > > > > sort of related > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/300857540917 > > hand labeled "Property of Steve Chadly" Since that labelling isn't on the ebay listing, I assume you purchased this? :-) I saw that listed on ebay, but wasn't sure what sort of system it was for and I've already got enough "projects" on my plate that I'm reluctant to buy parts unless I already know where they go. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 13:32:17 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:32:17 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> References: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > Ken Seefried wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know of the connections which can be made on such a machine? > > > > > > > Not sure exactly what you mean by "connections", but I'm pretty sure the > > one we had had ethernet, serial, PIO, and SCSI. And the video output of > > course. > > > I was wondering about that video output. What kind is it? "Standard" or > something extremely proprietary? I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC connectors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 19 14:00:31 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 12:00:31 -0800 Subject: DOS (PC) FTP server testing needed In-Reply-To: <51238B60.7050601@brutman.com> References: <1361202699.532795@crucible.dragonsweb.org> <512291CA.6000408@sydex.com> <5122DEEE.1060404@brutman.com> <5123285A.60409@sydex.com> <51238B60.7050601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <5123D9DF.6040500@sydex.com> On 02/19/2013 06:25 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > If it is easy I would like a log - this email address is fine for it. I > can also recreate it here if I need to dig further. But I still can't > imagine how this is anything but a client problem at this point. Maybe > something I'm doing is confusing it, but that's a badly behaved client > if it just starts automatically invoking tar for you. Ah, it's a matter of RTFM about a "feature". To quote from the manpage: "When using the ``-R'' flag, you can also use the ``-T'' flag to disable automatic on-the-fly TAR mode for downloading whole directory trees. The program uses TAR whenever possible since this usually preserves symbolic links and file permissions. TAR mode can also result in faster transfers for directories containing many small files, since a single data connection can be used rather than an FTP data connection for each small file. The downside to using TAR is that it forces downloading of the whole directory, even if you had previously downloaded a portion of it earlier, so you may want to use this option if you want to resume downloading of a directory. " Cute--you'd think that -T would be the default. Here's the relevant portion of the log: Cmd: PWD 257: "/" is current directory Cmd: CWD INCOMING 250: CWD command successful Cmd: CWD / 250: CWD command successful Cmd: MDTM INCOMING.tar 550: INCOMING.tar: bad file Cmd: PASV 227: Entering Passive Mode (96,42,84,69,8,186) Cmd: RETR INCOMING.tar 550: File not found tar: This does not look like a tar archive tar: Exiting with failure status due to previous errors Cmd: PWD 257: "/" is current directory Cmd: CWD INCOMING 250: CWD command successful Cmd: PWD 257: "/INCOMING/" is current directory Cmd: CWD . 250: CWD command successful Cmd: CWD /INCOMING/ 250: CWD command successful Cmd: MDTM . 213: 20110929020308 Cmd: TYPE A 200: Type set to A Cmd: PASV 227: Entering Passive Mode (96,42,84,69,8,41) Cmd: LIST -a 150: Sending file list 226: Transfer complete Cmd: MDTM ./00README.TXT 213: 20130217175114 Looks like it's just an Emily Litella. --Chuck From saquinn624 at aol.com Tue Feb 19 14:03:09 2013 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:03:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: networking via SCSI Message-ID: <8CFDCF3462C9F07-1834-1EE61@webmail-d001.sysops.aol.com> >Jeff Jonas [jeffj at panix.com] wrote: >> Long ago when SCSI was young >> and just an 8 bit parallel bus, >> Ampro littleboards advocated using the SCSI bus >> for peer to peer communications, not just master/slave. >> >> Did anyone else do that? > >I don't remember the details but I'm fairly sure you could run >OpenVMS clusters over SCSI at some point. I don't recall >whether this was "just experimental" or whether it was >actually supported in some configurations. > >Antonio OpenVMS AXP and I64 support partial clustering over some SCSI adapters, but I wouldn't call it full "networking". The machines are configured as multiple initiators and can send storage requests over the SCSI bus to shared disks or arrays. You still have to have another connection (usually Ethernet) for machine->machine cluster communication. While I haven't looked into it much beyond pinouts, DEC produced the proprietary DSSI which, in some cases, used SCSI ASICs - indicating that at some level it was similar (HSD-05 used, I think, an Emulex at either side. Can't check now, but can later). The protocol was different, and cluster communications could go over the DSSI bus between machines. I'm not sure whether the lack of a similar setup for SCSI is more because of impossibility or because Fast/Gig Ethernet came about and there was no longer much of a reason to not use the Ethernet for cluster comms. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Feb 19 14:14:02 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:14:02 +1300 Subject: Saving Dick Smith software for posterity Message-ID: Anyone use a Semi-virtual diskettes? Sometimes they are very handy devices. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-02-19-saving-dick-smith-software.htm From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 15:00:52 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 21:00:52 +0000 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk Message-ID: Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk workstations and Lisp Machines? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 19 14:43:40 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 20:43:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DG Nova repair etc. In-Reply-To: <5122B81F.6030401@gmx.de> from "alex" at Feb 19, 13 00:24:15 am Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > Tony, thanks for your input, we will check the PSU on Thursday when we > get to the machine again. Yes, do. No machine will work properly if the pwoer is all over the place. And it's a suprisingly common problem with very odd symptoms. In any case, if you can elimuinate the PSU as the source of the problem, that/s one less thing to have to work on. > > as Christian pointed out, the problem is not so much the pure amount of > components but the puzzle > game of identifying them since they have been relabled. Ah.... I've worked on enough HP machines to know the problem. Yes, there are HP equivlent lists, but quite often you find parts not in said lists. > > Whats definitely worse when comparing to out old VT100 is that the DEC > manual has one complete definitive > service manual that covers all schemes and logic. For our NOVA i failed Does it? I've seen 3 differnet video boards in VT100s, and I think I've only ever sene publisehd scheamtics for 2 of them. It is not at all uncommon to find the device you are repairing is a differnt revision elvel from the schematic. And the changes can be quite major. > to find a comparable thing. I have constantly to go > back an forward through all kinds of docs. Again I may be unable to find > a "real" service manual, if you know any let me know ;) This is a problem with larger machines, no matter who mede them. Yo uconfigured them from various moduelks (CPU, memory, I/O , maybe there were ven cabinet/PSU options) so there's a separate schematic and tech manual for each section. It makes sense, if the same core memory, say, was used in many machines, there only needs to be one manual covering it. But it does mean you're going back and forth between manauls -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 19 15:16:51 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:16:51 -0800 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5123EBC3.1080505@bitsavers.org> On 2/19/13 1:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably > detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk > workstations and Lisp Machines? > for Interlisp-D http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/interlisp in particular, 3101272_InterlispD_1_Oct85.pdf 3101273_InterlispD_2_Oct85.pdf 3101274_InterlispD_3_Oct85.pdf for Smalltalk http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/smalltalk I don't have anything currently up for Smalltalk-80, but that information is available in many other locations. Both systems are byte coded interpreters running in microcode on various impementations of a 16 bit CPU (Alto, Dorado, Dandelion, Daybreak). The CPUs were underpowered compared to the 32 and 36 bit processors that came out from the East Coast (MIT/LMI/Symbolics) with the exception of the Dorado, which was probably the most complicated 16 bit CPU ever built. With the exception of the "DandiTiger (Xerox 1109)" which supported more memory and hardware floating point, there really wasn't any special hardware for Smalltalk or Lisp (or Mesa). From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 19 15:20:23 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:20:23 -0600 Subject: online cross reference? Message-ID: <013201ce0ee6$edf92c40$c9eb84c0$@com> Is anyone interested in hosting an online cross reference for components both small and major? I have a fairly large (3000+ line items) of cross reference for hard drives, CDROM, CDRW, NIC cards, video cards, etc for computers and servers that I would be willing to contribute in spreadsheet format. Also MANY hard copy sheets of old printouts for parts that go into HP and IBM servers. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 15:42:31 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:42:31 -0700 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably > detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk > workstations and Lisp Machines? It's not the Xerox one, but this is a really good video/talk on the Lisp Machines Inc. machine: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 15:43:22 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 14:43:22 -0700 Subject: online cross reference? In-Reply-To: <013201ce0ee6$edf92c40$c9eb84c0$@com> References: <013201ce0ee6$edf92c40$c9eb84c0$@com> Message-ID: In article <013201ce0ee6$edf92c40$c9eb84c0$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > Is anyone interested in hosting an online cross reference for components > both small and major? > > I have a fairly large (3000+ line items) of cross reference for hard drives, > CDROM, CDRW, NIC cards, video cards, etc for computers and servers that I > would be willing to contribute in spreadsheet format. Wow. I think this would be a great thing to have available! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 19 15:52:18 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 13:52:18 -0800 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5123F412.7070208@bitsavers.org> On 2/19/13 1:42 PM, Richard wrote: > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably >> detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk >> workstations and Lisp Machines? > > It's not the Xerox one, but this is a really good video/talk on the > Lisp Machines Inc. machine: > > "the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines" you REALLY do not want to mix up LMI with Symbolics... From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 19 16:02:38 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:02:38 -0600 Subject: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things Message-ID: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> A volunteer has come up for the hosting space and software (all open source, Linux) I have the data, and will put it into uploadable formats, and provide templates for others who want to contribute also. I am NOT a php programmer, so a volunteer is needed who will design the site and create a script to do the searches and display the results. Any volunteers? _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 19 16:10:46 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:10:46 -0600 Subject: Next warehouse day March 2 Message-ID: <014f01ce0eed$f78cf050$e6a6d0f0$@com> The next Kerrville warehouse day is March 2, starting 9AM. Those who have come have gleaned many treasures J Please let me know if you plan to come, and what areas you are interested in, so I can start digging things out for you. Bring a truck, bring a U-Haul, I need to clear some things out! Old Sperry server, RA82 hard drive, lots of terminals and keyboards, old memory, what are people looking for? Old mono and color 9-pin monitors, early 15-pin monitors, daisy wheel and dot matrix printers, etc. Most of this old equipment does not take to UPS shipping very well. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax AOL IM elcpls _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 16:17:38 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:17:38 +0000 Subject: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things In-Reply-To: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> References: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > A volunteer has come up for the hosting space and software (all open source, > Linux) > > I have the data, and will put it into uploadable formats, and provide > templates for others who want to contribute also. > > I am NOT a php programmer, so a volunteer is needed who will design the site > and create a script to do the searches and display the results. > > Any volunteers? hmm Many moons ago I did http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/hdinfo/ that is a mysql database filled from a file that used to knock about on the net after a little look is was a year or so ago data taken from http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/hdinfo/HDINFO.PRN Is this the same data? I have an import program already written Dave Caroline From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 19 16:32:28 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:32:28 -0600 Subject: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things In-Reply-To: References: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> Message-ID: <016d01ce0ef0$ffaa3dd0$fefeb970$@com> Excellent info! Except what I had in mind was more like Seagate hard drive PN x is the same as IBM PN x, Compaq spares X, HP x, etc. Also possibly who has these still available, possibly pics, the data you gave, and several other things. For small components, the original mfr, several possible substitutes, and again PN from DG, HP, etc. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 4:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:02 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > A volunteer has come up for the hosting space and software (all open > source, > Linux) > > I have the data, and will put it into uploadable formats, and provide > templates for others who want to contribute also. > > I am NOT a php programmer, so a volunteer is needed who will design > the site and create a script to do the searches and display the results. > > Any volunteers? hmm Many moons ago I did http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/hdinfo/ that is a mysql database filled from a file that used to knock about on the net after a little look is was a year or so ago data taken from http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/hdinfo/HDINFO.PRN Is this the same data? I have an import program already written Dave Caroline ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 From tom94022 at comcast.net Tue Feb 19 17:15:12 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:15:12 -0800 Subject: Early Shugart FDD connector References: <50FF078C.201@landcomp.net> <20130123095741.J51347@shell.lmi.net> <510038ED.5000204@landcomp.net> <51004401.5000200@sydex.com> <5100A067.8010901@landcomp.net> <5100A6A2.6080004@sydex.com> <5100AF88.7000008@landcomp.net> <5100B623.6030404@sydex.com> <5101629E.5000505@compsys.to> <20130124090052.N75353@shell.lmi.net> <20130124102606.L75353@shell.lmi.net> <8450E938-AE52-4984-85D3-66CEAF57AD9C@gmail.com> <20130124140018.W79333@shell.lmi.net> <20130125085132.G95854@shell.lmi.net> <5102C076.1090205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Feedback from one who knows: The early signal cable on the Shugart SA900 was a twisted pair cable terminated on a connector with 0.156-inch centers to make the use of ribbon cable impossible. This was done to avoid cross talk noise problems using ribbon cable that the engineers had experienced at Memorex. Shugart switched to 0.100-inch centers for ribbon cable for customer (cost) reasons and had zero problems. There was only one cable for both control and data on the Shugart 8" FDDs. Tom From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 17:34:34 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:34:34 -0600 Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51240C0A.6070200@gmail.com> On 02/18/2013 05:04 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > So, it looks like the only way to get code onto the machine is to assemble > and write a disk image to floppy on a modern PC Well, it turns out that RSI BASIC has some rudimentary serial port functionality in it - enough for me to hack together a crude xmodem implementation in order to blat a few essentials across the link from the Linux box. I think it's probably been 25 years since I wrote any BASIC code "in anger". It's glacially slow - I'm getting about 32 cps - but it'll do. cheers Jules From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 17:35:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:35:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where Message-ID: <1361316912.9654.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111013285214?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 There's already ample bids on it, so I guess I shouldn't feel that bad. The first time I've ever *seen* one. Heard about it all the time back in the day. Looks like the old C64 case. Being a Commie expansion option makes it more collectible in my eyes then the fact that it runs the other s/w. Would be nice to have one. Sure would be nice. Probably not this week. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 17:41:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:41:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: <51240C0A.6070200@gmail.com> References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> <51240C0A.6070200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1361317275.64385.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have a limited number of QX-10 images. Probably no terminal emulators. One file says QXTPM.IMA. If anyone was intersted. I do have Valdocs images or some of them.I don't have my QX-10 anymore. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 18:12:23 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:12:23 -0700 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: <5123F412.7070208@bitsavers.org> References: <5123F412.7070208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <5123F412.7070208 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 2/19/13 1:42 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > Liam Proven writes: > > > >> Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably > >> detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk > >> workstations and Lisp Machines? > > > > It's not the Xerox one, but this is a really good video/talk on the > > Lisp Machines Inc. machine: > > > > "the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines" > > you REALLY do not want to mix up LMI with Symbolics... Sorry, brain cramp. Yes, it's Symbolics and not LMI. Regardless, I found the talk very informative. I watched this the last time a Symbolics machine was up for sale on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Feb 19 18:18:08 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:18:08 +1300 Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: <1361317275.64385.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> <51240C0A.6070200@gmail.com> <1361317275.64385.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Chris, I have a QX10 and would be interested in any images not already on this site. http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/qx10/disklibrary.html Terry (Tez) On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I have a limited number of QX-10 images. Probably no terminal emulators. One file says QXTPM.IMA. If anyone was intersted. I do have Valdocs images or some of them.I don't have my QX-10 anymore. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 18:42:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:42:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: QX-10 / terminal software In-Reply-To: References: <51224816.8030509@gmail.com> <5122B390.3060506@gmail.com> <51240C0A.6070200@gmail.com> <1361317275.64385.YahooMailNeo@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1361320940.46666.YahooMailNeo@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'll have to double check Terry but that seems to run the gamut (as far as what I've seen for the Q) From: Terry Stewart Chris, I have a QX10 and would be interested in any images not already on this site. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 19 19:46:59 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 01:46:59 +0000 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: <5123EBC3.1080505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2/19/13 1:16 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >On 2/19/13 1:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably >> detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk >> workstations and Lisp Machines? >> > >for Interlisp-D >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/interlisp > >in particular, >3101272_InterlispD_1_Oct85.pdf >3101273_InterlispD_2_Oct85.pdf >3101274_InterlispD_3_Oct85.pdf > >for Smalltalk >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/smalltalk > >I don't have anything currently up for Smalltalk-80, but that >information is available in many other locations. > >Both systems are byte coded interpreters running in microcode on various >impementations of a 16 bit CPU (Alto, Dorado, Dandelion, Daybreak). >The CPUs were underpowered compared to the 32 and 36 bit processors that >came out from >the East Coast (MIT/LMI/Symbolics) with the exception of the Dorado, >which was >probably the most complicated 16 bit CPU ever built. > >With the exception of the "DandiTiger (Xerox 1109)" which supported more >memory and hardware >floating point, there really wasn't any special hardware for Smalltalk or >Lisp (or Mesa). > And frankly, that's what's exciting about those platforms! They were incredibly flexible, relying on simplicity rather than complexity to offer a broad range of expression. -- Ian From pye at mactec.com.au Tue Feb 19 21:00:08 2013 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:00:08 +1000 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <1361316912.9654.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361316912.9654.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 20/02/2013, at 9:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/111013285214?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 > > There's already ample bids on it, so I guess I shouldn't feel that bad. > > The first time I've ever *seen* one. Heard about it all the time back in the day. Looks like the old C64 case. Being a Commie expansion option makes it more collectible in my eyes then the fact that it runs the other s/w. > > Would be nice to have one. Sure would be nice. Probably not this week. That thing is totally ridiculous! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 21:12:33 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:12:33 -0800 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > someone's got one > > http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/computers-en-software/sun-sgi-en-unix/m645156345-tektronix-4317-unix-mini-computer.html > > go after it while you can > What is pictured is not a Tek 4317. It is a HD/floppy expansion box or maybe a Tek 4404 with a keyboard mouse and Monitor. The monitor looks like the standard 19" RGB sync on green used with the 41XX terminals. I have a Tek 431X, not sure what particular model, in storage and it looks different, as does the referenced Tektronix page. I also have a 4404 that looks a lot like the one in the above picture. I have the Smalltalk software for the 4404 and 4406, which I am forwarding on to Jerry in Seattle for replication. He is trying to get a 4404 up and running. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 19 21:57:33 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:57:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where Message-ID: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 7:00 PM PST Chris Pye wrote: >That thing is totally ridiculous! what would make you say such a thing!!!??? it seems people have to be continually reminded that this is a nostalgia group. and as such it doesn't really matter if something works or not!! let's hear it for light and airy vaporware!! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 19 22:14:48 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 20:14:48 -0800 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 7:57 PM -0800 2/19/13, Chris Tofu wrote: >------------------------------ >On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 7:00 PM PST Chris Pye wrote: > >>That thing is totally ridiculous! > > what would make you say such a thing!!!??? > > it seems people have to be continually reminded that this is a >nostalgia group. and as such it doesn't really matter if something >works or not!! let's hear it for light and airy vaporware!! If it works, then I personally think that thing is totally AWESOME!!! Wow! I've never seen anything like it. I'd love to have it, but something tells me it will finish out of my price range. Realistically it already is. One interesting thing is that it appears to also be a multi-cart adapter. It looks like it takes 3 C-64 carts internally, with a 4th slot accessible from the side of the case. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 23:06:05 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 21:06:05 -0800 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512459BD.3000908@gmail.com> On 2/19/2013 7:57 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 7:00 PM PST Chris Pye wrote: > >> That thing is totally ridiculous! > what would make you say such a thing!!!??? > > it seems people have to be continually reminded that this is a nostalgia group. and as such it doesn't really matter if something works or not!! let's hear it for light and airy vaporware!! On a design standpoint it is kind of ridiculous. It appears to be a entire Apple II+ or IIe clone combined with a cartridge port expander for a C64. It even has one of those terrible clone Apple II power supplies inside. This had to cost way more then an entire Apple II clone to produce or purchase. Looks like it made a neat monitor stand though. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 23:17:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:17:21 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > What is pictured is not a Tek 4317. I don't know about that, it looks *exactly* like the picture on pg. 68 of the 1988 catalog: > I have a Tek 431X, not sure what particular model, in storage and it > looks different, as does the referenced Tektronix page. The previous page shows other members of the 431x family and they all have that same enclosure shown. The pictures showing the 4301, 4320 series, and 4330 series all have the same tower style case shown that was used in the XD88 series of workstations. The tower case looks like this: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 19 23:18:52 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:18:52 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: BTW, I have Tektronix catalogs that aren't on bitsavers on manx here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 23:37:57 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 05:37:57 +0000 Subject: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things In-Reply-To: <016d01ce0ef0$ffaa3dd0$fefeb970$@com> References: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> <016d01ce0ef0$ffaa3dd0$fefeb970$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Excellent info! > Except what I had in mind was more like Seagate hard drive PN x is the same I just need more data :) > as IBM PN x, Compaq spares X, HP x, etc. > Also possibly who has these still available, possibly pics, the data you Adding pictures would be nice, there was a trade supplier who sent a CDROM around with diagrams of connector and jumper location, perhaps something could be got from that if I could find it. I also got a copy of Hard Disk Secrets, John M Goodman,, Info World 1992 IDG Books not tried to read the floppy yet > gave, and several other things. > > For small components, the original mfr, several possible substitutes, and > again PN from DG, HP, etc. It is no problem to add options like that. > > Dave Caroline From vansloot at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 10:58:48 2013 From: vansloot at gmail.com (Hans Van Slooten) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:58:48 -0600 Subject: Symbolics 3640 on eBay Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-Functional-Symbolics-3640-Artificial-Intelligence-Work-Station-/221191604765 ? Hans From bob at theatkinsons.org Tue Feb 19 16:19:56 2013 From: bob at theatkinsons.org (Bob Atkinson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 15:19:56 -0700 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45EDC2F297989443AF93B7DAEC5FFA49CDFD14094E@Jasper.inside.theatkinsons.org> During college, I interned with the PARC Smalltalk group (1985-86). At that time, Smalltalk-80 was being used both on the Dorados, which were PARC-designed ECL machines, and which I'm sure you can read more about elsewhere, and on Sun3 68K workstations. The latter were as an OS running the stock Sun Unix distribution; I don't recall what the former were running. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:01 PM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Xerox Smalltalk Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk workstations and Lisp Machines? From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Feb 19 16:52:50 2013 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:52:50 -0600 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b Message-ID: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am trying to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal to no avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal settings (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for parity and flow control). Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Feb 19 16:54:06 2013 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 16:54:06 -0600 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair Message-ID: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> I am sending some Datapoint 2200 CRTs to Thomas for repair. They have to retool their shop for this repair, therefor BULK is our friend. Anyone want to get in on a group rate? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 18:39:41 2013 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:39:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Mike Ross > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:22:04 +1300 > Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 23 >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2013 09:21:07 -0500 >> From: Michael Thompson >> To: cctech >> Subject: PDP-9 Restoration at the RICM > >> We need to fix the paper tape reader so we can load some of the diags. >> We are a long way from connecting the TC-59 and the TU20. >> I suspect that getting the TU20 working will be a challenge. > > How are you fixed for doc & spares? > > I have a TC59 on one of my pdp-15s - I have doc and I think I have > some spare boards... > > Mike Bitsavers has the TC59 Instruction Manual and Schematics. I have an HP 7975A (TU20) tape deck manual on the way. I will scan it and send it to Al. I have not been able to find any documentation on the rack of electronics in the bottom of the TU20 cabinet. We don't have the I/O cables to connect the TC59 to the PDP-9. We have some spare generic B, R, and S modules. We probably don't have any spares for the special modules for the PDP-9 and TC59. Any offers of help are gratefully accepted. -- Michael Thompson From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Feb 19 17:15:09 2013 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:15:09 +1300 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 10:58:48 -0600 > From: Hans Van Slooten > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Symbolics 3640 on eBay > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Complete-Functional-Symbolics-3640-Artificial-Intelligence-Work-Station-/221191604765 > ? Oooooh. Bid placed! Thanks Hans; that's exactly what I need for the front-end for my Connection Machine CM-200!!!! Mike http://www.corestore.org From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 00:57:48 2013 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:57:48 -0800 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > The previous page shows other members of the 431x family and they all > have that same enclosure shown. > > The pictures showing the 4301, 4320 series, and 4330 series all have > the same tower style case shown that was used in the XD88 series of > workstations. The tower case looks like this: > My bad, sorry. I was thinking of the case referenced immediately above....and did not do my research. Thanks for the links to the catalogs. It helps in the search. Now I need to go and look at what I have in storage, when I can get to it, It is the newer case but I thought it was a 431X machine. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aswood at t-online.de Wed Feb 20 01:37:13 2013 From: aswood at t-online.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:37:13 +0100 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0C65904A-A170-4EA9-963C-D39E19E1C5B8@t-online.de> Since we have several stars and dandelions running Lisp, ViewPoint and GlobalView we are searching for Xerox Smalltalk media and software distributions for a very long time. Andreas Am 19.02.2013 um 22:00 schrieb Liam Proven : > Does anyone know of anywhere I might be able to read some reasonably > detailed accounts of the operating systems of the Xerox Smalltalk > workstations and Lisp Machines? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 20 01:49:21 2013 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 23:49:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <512459BD.3000908@gmail.com> References: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512459BD.3000908@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Feb 2013, mc68010 wrote: > On 2/19/2013 7:57 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 7:00 PM PST Chris Pye wrote: >> >>> That thing is totally ridiculous! >> what would make you say such a thing!!!??? >> >> it seems people have to be continually reminded that this is a nostalgia >> group. and as such it doesn't really matter if something works or not!! >> let's hear it for light and airy vaporware!! > On a design standpoint it is kind of ridiculous. It appears to be a entire > Apple II+ or IIe clone combined with a cartridge port expander for a C64. It > even has one of those terrible clone Apple II power supplies inside. This > had to cost way more then an entire Apple II clone to produce or purchase. > Looks like it made a neat monitor stand though. I think it's perfectly acceptable for that thing to be ridiculous and be legitimately collectible. It's like an exhibit in a freak show. I do remember wanting one because I thought it would be a cheaper way to get an Apple II. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 01:49:56 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 23:49:56 -0800 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <51238D16.7060505@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> <5122F545.3030600@gmail.com> <51238D16.7060505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51248024.1030306@gmail.com> On 2/19/2013 6:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/18/2013 09:45 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 2/18/2013 7:27 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> The power supply does show some activity when plugged in. It puts out >>> +6.75v to the battery and the +5v test point is up. None of the other >>> test points show anything. There is a switch on the PS for battery >>> backup >>> power to ram. In the on position the PS fan spins but, I don't see any >>> other test points coming up. The +5 is getting to the power switch and >>> the switch is working fine. >> >> I just went and checked because that was all from memory and it is >> actual >> +12 getting to the power switch. The +5 test point comes up when the >> battery ram backup is turned on which makes sense. When I turn the >> power >> switch on the +12 at the switch drops to zero. > > Hmm. I doubt that +12 is used for much on the PCBs - probably the > serial line drivers but not a lot else. The big +12V draw is probably > the hard drive(s). > > I can't remember for sure where the console plugs into now, but I > think it's the main PCB which contains the CPU (was it called PMC in > NCR-speak?) - in which case, maybe see what happens if you disconnect > the power to the hard disk(s) and pull all of the boards except the > main one and the memory; I expect that the machine should be able to > do something with that minimum configuration. Well battery is fine. It actually took all day to get up to full voltage from dead but, it seems fine now. Just for fun I checked the power switch with the AC plug in and out.Power switch being a small circuit board in the front of the machine that I haven't found a direct connection to the PS from yet It has +12vdc at one throw with plug in. With the AC plug out it has +5vdc on the same throw. Obviously coming off the battery. What that means I don't know. When I first got it I did try it with the drives and multibus boards unplugged and it still didn't turn on. It uses a DB15 for the console port which is odd. I assumed it was just a serial port. Do they turn on without that console cable installed ? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 03:47:37 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:47:37 +0000 Subject: online cross ref hosting found, still need a few other things In-Reply-To: <016d01ce0ef0$ffaa3dd0$fefeb970$@com> References: <014a01ce0eec$d4da2560$7e8e7020$@com> <016d01ce0ef0$ffaa3dd0$fefeb970$@com> Message-ID: I updated the code a bit and added code to display images for a drive so now if there is data available one can drill down into the data and see. To test I found a scabby old Miniscribe 8051A and put its images under 8051AT (perhaps should have added a new model) so on http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/hdinfo/viewmakersdrives.php?makerid=35&maker=MINISCRIBE you see the model is now a link to view details Dave Caroline From pye at mactec.com.au Wed Feb 20 05:15:26 2013 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:15:26 +1000 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361332653.12573.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7621D15C-1BF8-4C4C-BB6D-7D08880C4AB7@mactec.com.au> On 20/02/2013, at 1:57 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 7:00 PM PST Chris Pye wrote: > >> That thing is totally ridiculous! > > what would make you say such a thing!!!??? > > it seems people have to be continually reminded that this is a nostalgia group. and as such it doesn't really matter if something works or not!! let's hear it for light and airy vaporware!! I am probably one of the worst offenders of collecting "useless" and "impractical" machines, and to be honest I would probably buy it if it was close by and cheap enough.. I just can't fathom why anybody made it, especially at that time (from what I remember it was late to market). Surely it would have cost as much or more than an Apple II clone, and knowing how incompatible some Apple II clones were, how did this machine go running from a C64. Actually after having a second look I am totally intrigued about the design, did it have it's own 6502? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Feb 20 03:17:08 2013 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:17:08 +0100 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> Message-ID: <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 19.02.2013 23:52, schrieb Nick Allen: > anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am > trying to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal > to no avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal > settings (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for > parity and flow control). > > Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper settings on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - there is an ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there is also a Baudot TTY version. There is a listing of the monitor and VTL-2 at http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-System_Monitor_Manual-03-Beta_1-Searchable.pdf (toplevel page http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html). Since the monitor is only 512bytes, it is IMHO not too tedious to key in the hex codes. The problem is the availability of 1702 PROMs and a suitable programmer nowadays. -- Holger From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 20 06:09:17 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 04:09:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where Message-ID: <1361362157.51200.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 3:15 AM PST Chris Pye wrote: >I am probably one of the worst offenders of collecting "useless" and "impractical" machines, and to be honest I would probably buy it if it was close by and cheap enough.. I just can't fathom why anybody made it, especially at that time (from what I remember it was late to market). Surely it would have cost as much or more than an Apple II clone, and knowing how incompatible some Apple II clones were, how did this machine go running from a C64. > >Actually after having a second look I am totally intrigued about the design, did it have it's own 6502? You'll have to do your own research on that (my guess though is definitely. The Commie besides has a 6510). I know (or remember) nothing specific, just that it was advertised forever it seemed in Compute and whatnot. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 05:58:28 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:58:28 -0300 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where References: <1361316912.9654.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F11AF32EAA401A866B6776F12D9C32@tababook> I have a commodore magazine where it was reviewed...very interesting toy :D But I believe as expensive as an Apple II at past :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Pye" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:00 AM Subject: Re: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where > > On 20/02/2013, at 9:35 AM, Chris Tofu > wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111013285214?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 >> >> There's already ample bids on it, so I guess I shouldn't feel that bad. >> >> The first time I've ever *seen* one. Heard about it all the time back in >> the day. Looks like the old C64 case. Being a Commie expansion option >> makes it more collectible in my eyes then the fact that it runs the other >> s/w. >> >> Would be nice to have one. Sure would be nice. Probably not this week. > > > That thing is totally ridiculous! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 20 06:27:00 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 05:27:00 -0700 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: <0C65904A-A170-4EA9-963C-D39E19E1C5B8@t-online.de> References: <0C65904A-A170-4EA9-963C-D39E19E1C5B8@t-online.de> Message-ID: <5124C114.8040007@brouhaha.com> Andreas Holz wrote: > Since we have several stars and dandelions running Lisp, ViewPoint and GlobalView we are searching for Xerox Smalltalk media and software distributions for a very long time. Was there actually a Smalltalk for the 8010/1108/1109 or 6085/1186? The Wikipedia article says there was, but doesn't cite any reference. While there were implementations on the Alto, Dolphin, and Dorado, I thought they skipped from those to microprocessor-based systems (such as the 8086-based Notetaker prototype and the 68000-based Sun workstation) rather than putting it on the other D-machines. Eric From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 06:28:01 2013 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:28:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Saving Dick Smith software for posterity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > Anyone use a Semi-virtual diskettes? Sometimes they are very handy > devices. > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-02-19-saving-dick-smith-software.htm I agree. It's one of the disk-handling tools in my arsenal. Too bad it was never extended to handle DS diskette images. -- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 20 06:47:04 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:47:04 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> Message-ID: <03b401ce0f68$630d1420$29273c60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Nick Allen wrote: > > anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am trying > to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal to no > avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal settings > (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for parity and > flow control). > > Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? Have you examined the 680 schematics (available on the web)? A 680 can be configured in a number of ways, including various baud rates, signaling schemes (rs-232 is just one of three choices) and the firmware may be ASCII or Baudot. You need to do much more investigation than "just plug it in". Bill S. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 07:56:47 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:56:47 +0000 Subject: Looking for 'Complete Works' by Toplevel Computing Message-ID: I have a couple of distributions of hard disk (and other computer hardware) information in a brochure ware form CD but really it seems it is a database/spreadsheet thing like works/excel. It has jumper settings and diagrams for many disks etc and it would be nice to extract the data from the tables It has small database tables in a .idd format which seem to match up to a package 'Complete Works' by Toplevel Computing Dave Caroline From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 20 07:59:03 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:59:03 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <03b401ce0f68$630d1420$29273c60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <03b401ce0f68$630d1420$29273c60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5124D6A7.1080203@verizon.net> On 02/20/2013 07:47 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Nick Allen wrote: >> anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am trying >> to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal to no >> avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal settings >> (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for parity and >> flow control). >> >> Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? > Have you examined the 680 schematics (available on the web)? > A 680 can be configured in a number of ways, including various > baud rates, signaling schemes (rs-232 is just one of three > choices) and the firmware may be ASCII or Baudot. You need to > do much more investigation than "just plug it in". > > Bill S. > I've used a FTSB USB to serial for connect to several macines, I do have several adaptors to get te right levels and connector as the cable I have is 3.3V LVCMOS. Other than the correct levels there are no issues. I have no idea where the Baudot thing comes from as those terminals were rarely used with micros and the standard asr-33 and adm/vt05/vt52/H19 terminals were all ascii. Most of the serial USB to serial cables need a driver to match the OS to the cable. Linux you use minicom and the correct ttyUSB port. Note the cable must be able to do slow rates like 110, 300, 600,1200 as most of the older machines will generally not keep up with 2400 or faster (for most modem programs). Allison Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 20 08:04:51 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:04:51 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: > Am 19.02.2013 23:52, schrieb Nick Allen: >> anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am >> trying to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal >> to no avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal >> settings (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for >> parity and flow control). >> The 680 as far as I know does not autobaud so you need to know what the console serial card is set for and match that, likely much slower than 9600! IS this running rom based monitor (turnkey) or the simpler front panel machine that needs software monitor loaded first to make it semi responsive. >> Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? > What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper settings on > the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - there is an ACIA > version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there is also a Baudot TTY > version. > There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option commonly used for the asr33. > There is a listing of the monitor and VTL-2 at > http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-System_Monitor_Manual-03-Beta_1-Searchable.pdf > (toplevel page http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html). > > Since the monitor is only 512bytes, it is IMHO not too tedious to key > in the hex codes. The problem is the availability of 1702 PROMs and a > suitable programmer nowadays. > Use an easily found (and programmed) 2716 or larger device and make an adapter for the 1702 socket. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Feb 20 08:44:14 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:44:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: References: <1361316912.9654.YahooMailNeo@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Chris Pye wrote: > > On 20/02/2013, at 9:35 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/111013285214?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 >> >> There's already ample bids on it, so I guess I shouldn't feel that bad. >> >> The first time I've ever *seen* one. Heard about it all the time back in the day. Looks like the old C64 case. Being a Commie expansion option makes it more collectible in my eyes then the fact that it runs the other s/w. >> >> Would be nice to have one. Sure would be nice. Probably not this week. > This is one of the few times that the "ultra rare" label in an eBay listing is accurate. One other was sold last month or the month before I think. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Wed Feb 20 09:13:31 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:13:31 -0600 Subject: Looking for 'Complete Works' by Toplevel Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005a01ce0f7c$d879def0$896d9cd0$@com> Have you thought about this one? I have never tried it. http://www.fileviewpro.com/en/file-extension-idd It has small database tables in a .idd format which seem to match up to a package 'Complete Works' by Toplevel Computing Dave Caroline ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6117 - Release Date: 02/19/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6117 - Release Date: 02/19/13 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 09:17:57 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:17:57 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Oooooh. > > Bid placed! > > Thanks Hans; that's exactly what I need for the front-end for my > Connection Machine CM-200!!!! I am fairly certain the Symbolics machines used as CM front ends have a special board installed for the communication to the supercomputer. You may want to check to see if that board is installed. The Symbolics machines at RCS came from Thinking Machines (or what was left of them), and have these boards. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 09:25:45 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:25:45 -0500 Subject: Houston Area help Message-ID: I may need some short term help with a museum pickup in Houston. It is a small item (well, sort of - 50 pounds? Certainly trunk of the car small), but would need pickup in 15 days or so. It is a piece of avionics gear. Expenses would be paid, of course, to fetch this and probably ship it (unless I swing by Houston soon). Any interest? -- Will From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 09:34:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:34:44 -0500 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: <1361362157.51200.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361362157.51200.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6CC539AB-9703-4906-9CBD-5C22D77E59D7@gmail.com> On Feb 20, 2013, at 7:09 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 3:15 AM PST Chris Pye wrote: > >> Actually after having a second look I am totally intrigued about the design, did it have it's own 6502? > > You'll have to do your own research on that (my guess though is definitely. The Commie besides has a 6510). Though we are all pedants here, I'd still call what the C64 has a 6502, since it is a 6502 with a tiny GPIO port replacing a few of the seldom- used pins. - Dave From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 09:37:24 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:37:24 +0000 Subject: Looking for 'Complete Works' by Toplevel Computing In-Reply-To: <005a01ce0f7c$d879def0$896d9cd0$@com> References: <005a01ce0f7c$d879def0$896d9cd0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 3:13 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Have you thought about this one? I have never tried it. > http://www.fileviewpro.com/en/file-extension-idd I have done a little more digging and found that the early version of the software used a .dbf format with a changed extension and the later used a foxpro format with a changed extension as well and the image files are just a hidden format .bmp so looks like the data is easy enough to extract Dave ps a sample reading profile2/renamed_idt_dbf/16LMO.DBF Header: {"RecordCount":121,"FirstRecord":65,"RecordLength":56} Field: {"fieldname":"TEXT","fieldtype":"C","offset":1,"fieldlen":55,"fielddec":0} record: {"TEXT":" CONNER 16L-MO 20GB MAGNETO OPTICAL DISK JUKEBOX"} 1 CONNER 16L-MO 20GB MAGNETO OPTICAL DISK JUKEBOX record: {"TEXT":" -----------------------------------------------"} 2 ----------------------------------------------- record: {"TEXT":""} 3 record: {"TEXT":"Low cost on-line storage for high performance Conner"} 4Low cost on-line storage for high performance Conner record: {"TEXT":"Hierarchical Storage Management (HSM) systems."} 5Hierarchical Storage Management (HSM) systems. record: {"TEXT":""} 6 record: {"TEXT":"FEATURES"} 7FEATURES record: {"TEXT":""} 8 record: {"TEXT":" * 20 GB of low cost on-line network storage"} 9 * 20 GB of low cost on-line network storage record: {"TEXT":" * High performance and capacity - data access 8"} 10 * High performance and capacity - data access 8 record: {"TEXT":" seconds average"} 11 seconds average record: {"TEXT":" * Includes all media, 16 rewritable magneto optical"} 12 * Includes all media, 16 rewritable magneto optical record: {"TEXT":" disks, with 1.3 GB of storage on each disk"} 13 disks, with 1.3 GB of storage on each disk record: {"TEXT":" * 30 year media archival life"} 14 * 30 year media archival life record: {"TEXT":" * Fully integrated and tested solution"} 15 * Fully integrated and tested solution record: {"TEXT":""} 16 record: {"TEXT":"BENEFITS"} 17BENEFITS record: {"TEXT":""} 18 record: {"TEXT":" * Combines with Conner Hierarchical Storage"} 19 * Combines with Conner Hierarchical Storage record: {"TEXT":" Management (HSM) software to provide 20 GB of"} 20 Management (HSM) software to provide 20 GB of record: {"TEXT":" on-line network storage"} 21 on-line network storage record: {"TEXT":" * Higher capacity, at less cost than equivalent hard"} 22 * Higher capacity, at less cost than equivalent hard record: {"TEXT":" disk storage"} 23 disk storage record: {"TEXT":" * Provides maximum Conner HSM performance"} 24 * Provides maximum Conner HSM performance record: {"TEXT":" * Secure and highly reliable on-line data storage"} 25 * Secure and highly reliable on-line data storage record: {"TEXT":""} 26 record: {"TEXT":"OPTICAL JUKEBOX DRIVE PERFORMANCE"} 27OPTICAL JUKEBOX DRIVE PERFORMANCE record: {"TEXT":""} 28 record: {"TEXT":"Capacity 1024 byte sectors"} 29Capacity 1024 byte sectors record: {"TEXT":" 1.3 MB"} 30 1.3 MB record: {"TEXT":" (325\/297 MB per side)"} 31 (325/297 MB per side) record: {"TEXT":"Average Seek 23.5 msec"} 32Average Seek 23.5 msec record: {"TEXT":"Short Stroke Seek (across 2.2 MB) 4 msec"} 33Short Stroke Seek (across 2.2 MB) 4 msec record: {"TEXT":"Full Stroke Seek 50 msec"} 34Full Stroke Seek 50 msec record: {"TEXT":"Single Track Seek (track-to-track)2 msec"} 35Single Track Seek (track-to-track)2 msec record: {"TEXT":"Average Latency 12.5 msec"} 36Average Latency 12.5 msec record: {"TEXT":"Average Access Time 36.0 msec"} From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 20 09:52:25 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:52:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altair & Cromemco systems for sale Message-ID: I have the following systems for sale. I am taking offers for the next week or so and will sell each for the highest offer received then. Description and then URL with photos follows. Altair 8800 S/N 220354K MITS CPU BD REV 0 MITS 88-2 SIO REV 0 MITS DISK BD 1 REV 0-X3 MITS DISK #2 REV 0-X2 Processor Technology 3P+S I/O http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Altair%208800/ Altair 8800a S/N 225341K MITS CPU BD REV 0 MITS 88-2 SIO REV 0 MITS DISK BD 1 REV 0 X4 MITS DISK #2 REV 1 Ithaca Audio IA-1100 http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Altair%208800a/ Altair 8800b S/N 300-000270 MITS 8800B CPU BD REV 0 PCC TURNKEY MODULE PCC S-100 INTERFACE CEPC 4-SIO-1 http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Altair%208800b%20%231/ Altair 8800b MITS 8800B CPU BD REV 0 MITS Altair 8800b REV 0 TURNKEY MODULE MITS DISK BD 1 REV 0-X3 MITS DISK #2 REV 0-X2 MITS 88-2 SIO REV 0 Heuristics Inc Speechlab Cromemco D+7A I-O http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Altair%208800b%20%232/ Cromemco System Three I'm still looking for the boards for this system. Photos are of enclosure and drives. http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Cromemco%20System%20Three/ Cromemco Z2-D I'm still looking for the boards for this system. Photos are of enclosure and drives. http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Cromemco%20Z-2D/ Heathkit H11 + H27 I need to get the configuration of this system and will post it to the directory with the photos later today. http://vintagetech.com/photos/S-100/Heathkit%20H11/ Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 20 10:37:47 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:37:47 -0800 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5124FBDB.2000308@bitsavers.org> On 2/19/13 2:54 PM, Nick Allen wrote: > I am sending some Datapoint 2200 CRTs to Thomas for repair. What/Where is "Thomas"? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 20 10:41:07 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 08:41:07 -0800 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: <5124C114.8040007@brouhaha.com> References: <0C65904A-A170-4EA9-963C-D39E19E1C5B8@t-online.de> <5124C114.8040007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5124FCA3.1060708@bitsavers.org> On 2/20/13 4:27 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Was there actually a Smalltalk for the 8010/1108/1109 or 6085/1186? The Wikipedia article says there was, but doesn't cite any reference. > > Yes, it came out of XSIS (Xerox Special Information Systems). http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/xsis It (and Analyist) are quite difficult to find. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 10:44:54 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:44:54 -0500 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: <5124FBDB.2000308@bitsavers.org> References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> <5124FBDB.2000308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > What/Where is "Thomas"? He is a little blue tank engine, and travels the iron road... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 10:51:58 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:51:58 -0500 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: > I am sending some Datapoint 2200 CRTs to Thomas for repair. They have to > retool their shop for this repair, therefor BULK is our friend. Anyone want > to get in on a group rate? I would be interested to see just how much this is going to cost you. Thomas charges a *bunch* of money for rebuilds, and generally will not touch simple CRTs like in the Datapoint 2200 - they generally deal with radar CRTs and such. The old roundie TV guys simply can not use Thomas, even though they are willing to spend many hundreds of dollars on those old tubes to get their sets working again. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 20 11:18:59 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:18:59 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191004.r1JA4mbi032256@ls-al.eu> <5123B6DF.3030201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > Thanks for the links to the catalogs. It helps in the search. No problem. I was referencing them frequently as I study graphics/terminal history :-). > Now I need to go and look at what I have in storage, when I can get to > it, It is the newer case but I thought it was a 431X machine. Always good to know what else is out there! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 20 11:22:55 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:22:55 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <5124028E.8010906 at comcast.net>, Nick Allen writes: > I am sending some Datapoint 2200 CRTs to Thomas for repair. They have > to retool their shop for this repair, therefor BULK is our friend. > Anyone want to get in on a group rate? What exactly are they repairing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 20 11:08:17 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 09:08:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where Message-ID: Hey, I used to have one of those. In fact, I used to have THIS VERY SAME UNIT. -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 20 12:19:59 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 10:19:59 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <5124D6A7.1080203@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <03b401ce0f68$630d1420$29273c60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <5124D6A7.1080203@verizon.net> Message-ID: <512513CF.4060006@jwsss.com> On 2/20/2013 5:59 AM, Allison wrote: > On 02/20/2013 07:47 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> Nick Allen wrote: >>> anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am trying >>> to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via hyper-terminal to no >>> avail. Any special settings I should be aware for terminal settings >>> (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop bits, NONE for parity and >>> flow control). >>> >>> Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? >> Have you examined the 680 schematics (available on the web)? >> A 680 can be configured in a number of ways, including various >> baud rates, signaling schemes (rs-232 is just one of three >> choices) and the firmware may be ASCII or Baudot. You need to >> do much more investigation than "just plug it in". >> >> Bill S. >> > > I've used a FTSB USB to serial for connect to several macines, I do have > several adaptors to get te right levels and connector as the cable I have > is 3.3V LVCMOS. Other than the correct levels there are no issues. > > I have no idea where the Baudot thing comes from as those terminals were > rarely used with micros and the standard asr-33 and adm/vt05/vt52/H19 > terminals were all ascii. > > Most of the serial USB to serial cables need a driver to match the OS to > the cable. Linux you use minicom and the correct ttyUSB port. > > Note the cable must be able to do slow rates like 110, 300, 600,1200 > as most of the older machines will generally not keep up with 2400 > or faster (for most modem programs). > > Allison > > Allison > > Nick, have you looked to see that the levels are anywhere near the correct levels when connected to the 680? I don't know about the unit you have, but I'd be sure that you have +- 10v or so when you are connected. I would think that there would be a > 0 chance that they cheat on the level and drive on the USB -> serial ports. jim From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 20 12:27:41 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:27:41 -0600 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130220182741.GC29075@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/20/2013 at 09:04AM -0500), Allison wrote: > > >>Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? > >What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper > >settings on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - > >there is an ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there > >is also a Baudot TTY version. > > > There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option commonly > used for the asr33. There is for sure a BAUDOT monitor prom option for the 680b. As you can see here, http://www.vintagecomputer.net/MITS/680/MITS_Altair_680b_Monitor_Manual.pdf the table of contents refers you to page 31, where the BAUDOT listing is present. The current loop interface in the 680b was capable of operating at 60mA, with a BAUDOT teletype such as Model 28 as long as the loop supply was externally provided. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 20 12:51:54 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:51:54 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > I am sending some Datapoint 2200 CRTs to Thomas for repair. They have to > > retool their shop for this repair, therefor BULK is our friend. Anyone wan t > > to get in on a group rate? > > I would be interested to see just how much this is going to cost you. > Thomas charges a *bunch* of money for rebuilds, and generally will not > touch simple CRTs like in the Datapoint 2200 - they generally deal > with radar CRTs and such. The old roundie TV guys simply can not use > Thomas, even though they are willing to spend many hundreds of dollars > on those old tubes to get their sets working again. Presumably this is the place the original poster was talking about: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 13:01:26 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:01:26 -0500 Subject: Spartan Mimic (was Re: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where) Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:08 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Hey, I used to have one of those. In fact, I used to have THIS VERY SAME > UNIT. I used to have one, too. I got a pre-release unit for testing. Not sure what happened to it. Have the manual, have the plastic shell, but inexplicably (for me, at least), no boards. I think somewhere I must have a 1541 on a shelf with the Apple II disk board (it wedge into the C= drive case between the regular "DOS board" and the drive mechanism, and provided an Apple II 20-pin drive connector so you could just plug it right into any Apple II disk interface, brand-name or clone. It was an interesting beast, but IMO came to the market a bit late and a bit expensive for what you got. It did work. I ran lots of software, especially games, on it and I don't recall any huge problems (maybe a few minor ones). It has its own 6502 and ROMs and video circuit, so really, it's an Apple II clone with a built-in video MUX and disk mux that borrows a few things (like the keyboard) from the "host". There were keystrokes to switch which "personality" owned the video output and disk and listened to the keyboard, but as long as both CPUs weren't trying to simultaneously do disk I/O, their code kept running. I used this implementation "feature" to do an interesting thing - Infocom games run from RAM except when they need to read in new code and text from the floppy. In particular, they don't do disk I/O while waiting for the user to type more commands. I booted up one side (probably the Apple first) and started, say, "Enchanter", then once I scrolled through the text to the first prompt, replaced the Apple "Enchanter" disk with a C-64 "Sorcerer" disk and started that game. Once that game rolled through all the text to the first prompt, I swapped disks and active CPUs again and could alternate play from one machine to the other. If I'd had the money at the time to afford a dedicated Apple II drive, I could have made _that_ its Drive 0 and not swapped disks, just keyboard and video. It was still a fun way to abuse the system. Once Apple IIs started getting really cheap (by the time the GS was out, not many people wanted a crufty old II+ anymore), I got one of those and shelved the Mimic. I wish I knew why I removed the mainboard and what I did with it. They didn't make very many of them so I doubt I'll be able to replace it. I do have the original docs and Apple-side disc for it. At some point, I should probably make an archive of it since someone is probably interested in them. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 20 13:29:18 2013 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:29:18 -0600 Subject: Totally shameless plug - Atari Book now available for immediate purchase... In-Reply-To: <50B260F3.5040605@atarimuseum.com> References: <50B260F3.5040605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <201302201939.r1KJcsLJ070440@mx1.ezwind.net> At 12:18 PM 11/25/2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Well, after 7 years of research and over a year of writing and editing the book "US Trade Paper"? Wow, you are retro. :-) - John From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Feb 20 13:48:10 2013 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:48:10 -0600 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hey, I used to have one of those. In fact, I used to have THIS VERY SAME > UNIT. How's that going for you anyway? Have you had any luck at all in recovering any of your stuff? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 14:01:12 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:01:12 -0500 Subject: Datapoint 2200 CRT repair In-Reply-To: References: <5124028E.8010906@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Presumably this is the place the original poster was talking about: > Yes. There are only a handful of places left that still rebuild tubes, and of them, most specialize in the ever shrinking market for high power devices for replacement use. I sold some 50 kW tubes to one of them a couple of years ago, and got a nice tour and talk, and the truth of the matter is that tube rebuilding is EXPENSIVE. Even the audiophiles with their dead thousand dollar triodes get turned away - they can not afford the rebuild process. Unless Thomas is desperate for business, I suspect rebuilding the Datapoint CRTs will probably be insanely costly. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 14:43:37 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:43:37 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <512513CF.4060006@jwsss.com> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <5124D6A7.1080203@verizon.net> <512513CF.4060006@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > Nick > have you looked to see that the levels are anywhere near the correct levels > when connected to the 680? I don't know about the unit you have, but I'd be > sure that you have +- 10v or so when you are connected. I would think that > there would be a > 0 chance that they cheat on the level and drive on the > USB -> serial ports. I have definitely seen that be a problem with modern USB serial adapters and older 1488/1489 RS-232 interface circuits. In particular, I was trying to get a laptop to talk to an original, un-upgraded Bridgeport II mill (with a real DEC KD-11H M7264 CPU) with a hand-built round Tyco cable adapter, and it was totally no-go until I found a desktop machine with a "real" serial port. Like magic, it just worked at that point (with the same bit rate, parity settings, etc). I didn't check what the USB serial dongle was outputting (limited tools at the shop site) but I never did get it working with the mill. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 20 15:21:47 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:21:47 -0500 Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where References: Message-ID: <75802899832546A39539CCA11228C9F5@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 12:08 PM Subject: I hate doing this - Mimic guess where > > Hey, I used to have one of those. In fact, I used to have THIS VERY SAME > UNIT. > > > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > VintageTech I assume the really valuable stuff you managed to take out before the end (or the not so bulky), you still probably have a very nice collection. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 20 15:28:31 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:28:31 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <5124D6A7.1080203@verizon.net> <512513CF.4060006@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51253FFF.6010005@jwsss.com> On 2/20/2013 12:43 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> Nick >> have you looked to see that the levels are anywhere near the correct levels >> when connected to the 680? I don't know about the unit you have, but I'd be >> sure that you have +- 10v or so when you are connected. I would think that >> there would be a > 0 chance that they cheat on the level and drive on the >> USB -> serial ports. > I have definitely seen that be a problem with modern USB serial > adapters and older 1488/1489 RS-232 interface circuits. In > particular, I was trying to get a laptop to talk to an original, > un-upgraded Bridgeport II mill (with a real DEC KD-11H M7264 CPU) with > a hand-built round Tyco cable adapter, and it was totally no-go until > I found a desktop machine with a "real" serial port. Like magic, it > just worked at that point (with the same bit rate, parity settings, > etc). I didn't check what the USB serial dongle was outputting > (limited tools at the shop site) but I never did get it working with > the mill. > > -ethan > > If you can find them (still) and the input side you use itself doesn't have a problem, one thing we used to do on any oddball lashup was to buy a small, 64k or so serial FIFO buffer. it eliminated all sorts of handshake problems with people trying to hook up things to our 8ways (Microdata Reality serial port). Also most times used one on output to serial printers, though the printers got better over the years. We did have one instance where the user we sold a printer to started to complain about getting a short page or so after many months of smooth operation. Turned out they had never printed a report full bore @ 256k in length prior to that, and there was a problem with a setting that dropped everything after the first 256k or so. They had printed > 256k of course, but the flow control and pacing of the system had never blasted the 256k in one burst. that was entertaining. Jim From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Feb 20 13:01:04 2013 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 20:01:04 +0100 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 20.02.2013 15:04, schrieb Allison: > On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >> Am 19.02.2013 23:52, schrieb Nick Allen: >>> anyone ever use a USB/Serial cable to connect to an Altair? I am >>> trying to connect my 680b to my windows 7 computer via >>> hyper-terminal to no avail. Any special settings I should be aware >>> for terminal settings (currently using 9600, 8 data bits, 1 stop >>> bits, NONE for parity and flow control). >>> > The 680 as far as I know does not autobaud so you need to know what > the console serial > card is set for and match that, likely much slower than 9600! > > IS this running rom based monitor (turnkey) or the simpler front panel > machine > that needs software monitor loaded first to make it semi responsive. > > >>> Also, anyone know where I can get the ROM files for a 680b? >> What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper settings >> on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - there is an >> ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there is also a Baudot >> TTY version. >> > There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option commonly > used for the asr33. This was referred to in the listing as "Baudot". You're right, this is not 5 bit baudot/murray code. It is bit-banging tty, in contrast to an ACIA, though. > >> There is a listing of the monitor and VTL-2 at >> http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-System_Monitor_Manual-03-Beta_1-Searchable.pdf >> (toplevel page http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html). >> >> Since the monitor is only 512bytes, it is IMHO not too tedious to key >> in the hex codes. The problem is the availability of 1702 PROMs and a >> suitable programmer nowadays. >> > Use an easily found (and programmed) 2716 or larger device and make an > adapter for the 1702 socket. Or an even better available 27128/256 etc. But this is a controversal proposal for some people on this list, as it deviates from the original system. In times a VAX emulator runs on an iPhone, the 680b is simple enough to run in almost any middle-sized FPGA, or anything in between to the original system. -- Holger From mcwood at nefkom.net Wed Feb 20 14:33:40 2013 From: mcwood at nefkom.net (Marc Holz) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:33:40 +0100 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: Hello, I have a BASF 6105 8inch floppy drive and would like to find information on the jumper settings. The drive is attached with a custom build cable to a linux pc to produce dmk images. The cable worked already with a Shugart 851. Only one side of the 6105 drive is working, DS 8 inch floppy are not been read successfully (only Side0 is accessible). Might caused by jumper or the drive is out of order. I hope that someone on the list might have a technical manual of that drive. Marc From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 18:21:43 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 18:21:43 -0600 Subject: Aviion was Re: Data General Nova In-Reply-To: <51248024.1030306@gmail.com> References: <1361143117.77302.bpmail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5121A2F7.7090508@gmail.com> <5122B0E6.6070504@gmail.com> <5122C221.2000500@gmail.com> <5122D048.3050704@gmail.com> <5122F10F.4080400@gmail.com> <5122F545.3030600@gmail.com> <51238D16.7060505@gmail.com> <51248024.1030306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51256897.3060507@gmail.com> On 02/20/2013 01:49 AM, mc68010 wrote: > Well battery is fine. It actually took all day to get up to full voltage > from dead but, it seems fine now. Just for fun I checked the power switch > with the AC plug in and out.Power switch being a small circuit board in the > front of the machine that I haven't found a direct connection to the PS > from yet It has +12vdc at one throw with plug in. With the AC plug out it > has +5vdc on the same throw. Obviously coming off the battery. What that > means I don't know. Yeah, I wish I had my system here with me and then at least we could compare things. > When I first got it I did try it with the drives and multibus boards > unplugged and it still didn't turn on. Rats. > It uses a DB15 for the console port which is odd. I assumed it was just a > serial port. It is RS232, NCR just used a 15 pin connector. I'm pretty sure that it expects 9600,7E1 and the pinout is as follows: 1 TxD 2 RTS 3 DSR 4 DTR 9 RxD 10 CTS 11 sig gnd 12 DCD I say "pretty sure" because that came from an old email, and in a follow-up message to the guy who wrote it I mentioned that someone else had given me different pinout information. Still, RS232 is pretty robust, so if it's wrong then it shouldn't harm anything :-) > Do they turn on without that console cable installed ? I'm almost certain that they do; it was a while before I got a console hooked up to my machine and I'm pretty sure that I fired it up at the place I got it from (disks disconnected) to make sure that it wasn't totally dead before I took the trouble to haul it home. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 20 18:54:52 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:54:52 -0800 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5125705C.10107@sydex.com> On 02/20/2013 12:33 PM, Marc Holz wrote: > I have a BASF 6105 8inch floppy drive and would like to find information on > the jumper settings. According my list, the 6105 is really a rebadged NEC 1165. You can find a basic manual here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/divcomp/doc/NEC_FD1165_8_inch_floppy.pdf Marcus has a maintenance manual on his site: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/NEC/diskette/NEC%20FD1165%20Maintenance.pdf Let me know if this isn't right so I can correct my notes. --Chuck From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 20:44:31 2013 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:44:31 -0500 Subject: Xerox Smalltalk In-Reply-To: <5124FCA3.1060708@bitsavers.org> References: <0C65904A-A170-4EA9-963C-D39E19E1C5B8@t-online.de> <5124C114.8040007@brouhaha.com> <5124FCA3.1060708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I may be pointing out the obvious, but have you read the canonical introductions http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-80-The-Language-its-Implementation/dp/0201113716/ref=pd_sim_b_2 http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-80-History-Addison-Wesley-computer-science/dp/0201116693 http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-80-Interactive-Programming-Environment-Addison-Wesley/dp/0201113724/ref=pd_sim_b_1 http://www.amazon.com/Fumbling-Future-Invented-Personal-Computer/dp/1583482660/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1361413493&sr=1-1&keywords=fumbling+the+future On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/20/13 4:27 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Was there actually a Smalltalk for the 8010/1108/1109 or 6085/1186? The >> Wikipedia article says there was, but doesn't cite any reference. FWIW: Xerox was trying to sell one of my customers 6085s sometime in the late 80s. The salesman claimed, in a smug way, that all the software was written in Mesa, as if that was beyond our capabilities. I said "Great.", and pulled out the ACM ToPLAS issue about it, "We'll want to get the SDK for it as well so we can do a custom integration with our legacy systems." They weren't willing to sell us that. The most they would allow was their scripting language. And that's one of the Fumbling the Future facets. They deep-down believed they were selling information appliances rather than systems to integrate with the rest of the world. We did as much as we could - ported XNS protocols and tools on our Unix machines, wrote output drivers to emulate their word processors (don't ask) - but in the end they would never allow enough openness for us to build a good integration - and we were going to buy about 50 of these systems with associated filers. >> > > Yes, it came out of XSIS (Xerox Special Information Systems). > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/xsis > > It (and Analyist) are quite difficult to find. > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 20 21:14:26 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:14:26 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 20, at 11:01 AM, Holger Veit wrote: > Am 20.02.2013 15:04, schrieb Allison: >> On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>> >>> What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper >>> settings on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - >>> there is an ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there >>> is also a Baudot TTY version. >>> >> There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option >> commonly used for the asr33. > This was referred to in the listing as "Baudot". You're right, this > is not 5 bit baudot/murray code. It is bit-banging tty, in contrast > to an ACIA, though. According to the ref'd manual there is a 'Baudot'/5-level option. To quote, page 21: BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION The Baudot version of the PROM Monitor .. to support a Baudot Teletype .. and convert between Baudot (5-level code) and 7-bit ASCII. The manual goes on to talk about the 5-bit character translations and shows a layout of a simple 5-level teletype keyboard. You guys are forgetting that one of the most affordable terminal/ consoles for the computer hobbyist in the Altair era was a 5-bit teletype. They were obsolete and available as surplus. 8-bit ASR-33s and the like were still current equipment and not cheap. If you were lucky you might manage to get your hands on a 7-or-so-year-old surplus video terminal for cheap. A current video terminal would be another significant expense in addition to the computer. And just because we're discussing 5-level teletypes, if someone wants one I can supply you with one or more. Pickup Vancouver,B.C.,Canada region. >>> There is a listing of the monitor and VTL-2 at http:// >>> www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-System_Monitor_Manual-03- >>> Beta_1-Searchable.pdf >>> (toplevel page http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html). From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Feb 20 16:18:17 2013 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:18:17 -0600 Subject: Totally shameless plug - Atari Book now available for immediate purchase... In-Reply-To: <201302201939.r1KJcsLJ070440@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <50B260F3.5040605@atarimuseum.com> <201302201939.r1KJcsLJ070440@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: That's what createspace uses, we don't have any control over that. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:29 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 12:18 PM 11/25/2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >Well, after 7 years of research and over a year of writing and editing > the book > > "US Trade Paper"? Wow, you are retro. :-) > > - John > > -- Marty From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 21 04:00:23 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:00:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Marc Holz wrote: > Only one side of the 6105 drive is working, DS 8 inch floppy are not been > read successfully (only Side0 is accessible). > > Might caused by jumper or the drive is out of order. I have some info for the 6104 drive here: ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/basf But funny that you mention the problem with reading double-sided floppies. I have had the same issue with the 6104 drive attached to a PC. Writing was impossible, it resulted in completely unreadable tracks. After a long time I finally found the problem: the terminating resistor pack was not the right one. Instead of providing the usual pullup/pulldown pairs to the individual inputs, it somehow left some inputs unterminated, and tied other inputs together. After building a proper terminator (those DIL 220/330 ohm resistor packs are not easy to find and very expensive) all problems went away. Christian From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 21 05:10:16 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 06:10:16 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> On 02/20/2013 10:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Feb 20, at 11:01 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >> Am 20.02.2013 15:04, schrieb Allison: >>> On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>>> >>>> What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper settings >>>> on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - there is an >>>> ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there is also a >>>> Baudot TTY version. >>>> >>> There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option commonly >>> used for the asr33. >> This was referred to in the listing as "Baudot". You're right, this >> is not 5 bit baudot/murray code. It is bit-banging tty, in contrast >> to an ACIA, though. > > According to the ref'd manual there is a 'Baudot'/5-level option. To > quote, page 21: > > BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION > > The Baudot version of the PROM Monitor .. to support a Baudot > Teletype .. > and convert between Baudot (5-level code) and 7-bit ASCII. > > The manual goes on to talk about the 5-bit character translations and > shows a layout of a simple 5-level teletype keyboard. > > You guys are forgetting that one of the most affordable > terminal/consoles for the computer hobbyist in the Altair era was a > 5-bit teletype. They were obsolete and available as surplus. 8-bit > ASR-33s and the like were still current equipment and not cheap. If > you were lucky you might manage to get your hands on a > 7-or-so-year-old surplus video terminal for cheap. A current video > terminal would be another significant expense in addition to the > computer. > I'm not forgetting as I had one of the first Altairs, the 680 was later. A baudot machine was only a small amount cheaper and far slower, odd baud rate and code incompatable with the limited software of the day. In all of LICA (Long ISland Computer Association) one one person had a baudot machine (for ham RTTY) and he was interested in using the computer to replace it. Baudot for micros was always an oddity. Allison > And just because we're discussing 5-level teletypes, if someone wants > one I can supply you with one or more. Pickup Vancouver,B.C.,Canada > region. > > >>>> There is a listing of the monitor and VTL-2 at >>>> http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals/Altair_680-System_Monitor_Manual-03-Beta_1-Searchable.pdf >>>> (toplevel page http://www.altair680kit.com/manuals.html). > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 21 05:22:38 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:22:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive Message-ID: Hi, can someone identify this disk cartridge and drive? http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/unknown/ I don't have better quality photos. The cartridge is made by Dysan and is about 8" in size. Christian From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 21 05:40:54 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:40:54 +0100 Subject: FS: HP rx2600 "Montecito" along with parts and more Message-ID: <512607C6.3030706@xs4all.nl> My last IPF system has been powered down and is staying that way. (Except for possible Telnet, SSH, etc. 'test drives'.) I don't need/ want it anymore. I paid a pretty spicy sum for it (on a student's income, driven by fiery enthusiasm), originally. /Yes/, the fact that I'm offering these items for sale here means also that I'm willing to ship internationally, naturally as long as it's covered by the buyer. The object is located in the Netherlands. The rx2620 can be delivered with the following: - dual-processor Intel Itanium 9015 (SL9PC, released in 2007), "Montecito" dual-core and hyperthreading processors with VT-x at 1400 MHz with 12 Mbytes cache (up to ~533 MHz FSB, per Intel ARK), installed in late 2011 (brand-new out of the box); - up to 24 Gbytes ECC-registered DDR-SDRAM (I can also lower to just 8 Gbytes); - HP iLO/MP card, with on-board ATi Radeon 7000 and permanent SSH license; - LSI 1030 dual-channel Ultra320 SCSI LVD/SE, on-board, with external HD68 connector included; - HP rx2600/rx2620 card cage with 4-slot PCI-X riser board; - Intel i82546 dual GbE NIC, on-board; - HP slimline stock DVD-ROM drive (also burner available, which I will happily 'hack' into the system; no, not an original part, but it seemed to work, certainly as far as 'reading' goes... never really found the opportunity or excuse to burn anything from VMS). There are loads of PCI, PCI-X, rx2600/rx2620 and even AGP+PCI-X mixed zx6000-type card cage available (the latteris not officially supported, but you can have it for free, with a FireGL X1, HP-UX/ Windows audio card and 'official' HP IEEE-1394a FireWire card included, for HP-UX, Linux, FreeBSD, Windows for IA-64 or whatever, if you should care for that). In terms of PCI (3.3 V) and PCI-X options: USB 2.0 (NEC), LSI 1030 "FusionMPT" Ultra320 SCSI LVD/SE HBAs, Broadcom BCM5700-series GbE NICs (including one or more AXP-compatible DEGXA original, DEGXA mod.'ed and a DEGX2 mod.'ed), various rather interesting 'combo' cards, for FC (850 nm, MMF, LC; HBA) and GbE (copper, NIC) and Ultra320 SCSI LVD/SE (via VHDCI) and GbE (copper, NIC). I also have a whole stack (6 or 7 of HP/Exar/Neterion Xframe 10GbE NICs, which I used in my rx2600, rx2620 and DS15 systems and made MSCP quite 'interesting'. Not to forget, non-"Mobility"/VMS-compatible Radeon 7500 PCI (and AGP, for what it's worth... perhaps in the ES47?) I also have plenty of 'spare' items, like hot-swap zx6000/rx2600/ rx2620 type PSUs, PC2100 ECC RDIMMs, an M-cable, Itanium 2 (e.g. "McKinley", "Madison", "Madison-9M", etc. era socket, like in zx2000, zx6000/rx2600/rx2620, etc.) "Processor Tool", a bunch of HP 3 1/2" HDD 'ring'-type sleds/brackets and more. In other words, if there is anything you're looking for, I may just have it and want to get rid of it. I will also upload some pictures, in a follow-up, and can make more on request. - MG From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 21 07:22:29 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:22:29 -0600 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01ce1036$7f8564d0$7e902e70$@com> Looks like some of the old WORM drives (Write Once, Read Many) that we have here. They were kind of like Zip drives, in that the cartridge was firm plastic, but you could not erase them. As far as I know, WORM drives came in 8" and 5.25", mostly SCSI interface. Cindy Croxton -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Corti Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:23 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive Hi, can someone identify this disk cartridge and drive? http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/unknown/ I don't have better quality photos. The cartridge is made by Dysan and is about 8" in size. Christian ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6119 - Release Date: 02/20/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6119 - Release Date: 02/20/13 From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 21 07:34:09 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 07:34:09 -0600 Subject: used test and measurement equipment Message-ID: <002201ce1038$20db0280$62910780$@com> Found a site today that might be useful to some of you. http://www.used-line.com/ There are dealers world-wide. Cindy Croxton _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6119 - Release Date: 02/20/13 From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 21 08:26:26 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:26:26 +0100 Subject: FS: HP rx2620 "Montecito" along with parts and more In-Reply-To: <512607C6.3030706@xs4all.nl> References: <512607C6.3030706@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <51262E92.70101@xs4all.nl> Correction: rx2620 = rx2600 (Pictures are coming right up...) - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Feb 21 09:47:06 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 16:47:06 +0100 Subject: FS: HP rx2620 "Montecito" along with parts and more In-Reply-To: <51262E92.70101@xs4all.nl> References: <512607C6.3030706@xs4all.nl> <51262E92.70101@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5126417A.70801@xs4all.nl> On 21-feb-2013 15:26, MG wrote: > Correction: rx2620 = rx2600 (As in: It's an rx2620, not rx2600... Sorry about that, doing too many things at the same time.) > (Pictures are coming right up...) I'm uploading them somewhere at the moment. - MG From wilson at dbit.com Thu Feb 21 12:19:31 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:19:31 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 06:10:16AM -0500, allison wrote: >Baudot for micros was always an oddity. Totally. As if the 45.45 bps and 1.4 stop bits and FIGS/LTRS sticky shifts aren't alien enough, the 60 mA current loop uses voltages that you normally try to keep *away* from digital electronics (I shocked myself a bunch of times with RTTY stuff -- never happened with model 33s). John Wilson (KC1P -- had a 15, 19, 14TR, and 14TD) D Bit From tom94022 at comcast.net Thu Feb 21 12:59:28 2013 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 10:59:28 -0800 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: <001a01ce1036$7f8564d0$7e902e70$@com> References: <001a01ce1036$7f8564d0$7e902e70$@com> Message-ID: <2EC0487039FB42F59D971F50B41808B2@U260> It looks like one of the several 8-inch cartridges and associated drives from the early 1980s. Manufacturers included Amcodyne, CDC (9454/5/7), Century Data, Data Peripherals, DEC (RC25) and Vermont Research I doubt if Dysan made WORM Take a good look at the drive, it should have a technical data plate listing the manufacturer. If the plate is missing, the pchs should have the drive manufacturers name or logo. Tom > On Behalf Of Christian Corti > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:23 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive > > Hi, > > can someone identify this disk cartridge and drive? > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/unknown/ > I don't have better quality photos. > The cartridge is made by Dysan and is about 8" in size. > > Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 21 13:01:23 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:01:23 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 1:19 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 06:10:16AM -0500, allison wrote: >>Baudot for micros was always an oddity. > > Totally. As if the 45.45 bps and 1.4 stop bits and FIGS/LTRS sticky shifts > aren't alien enough, the 60 mA current loop uses voltages that you normally > try to keep *away* from digital electronics (I shocked myself a bunch of > times with RTTY stuff -- never happened with model 33s). I know some guys who do WWII historical re-enactment as a Signal Corps (and by a strange coincidence, I was the point of commonality to someone whose father was in the unit they portray. They were all happy to meet each other). One of the guys has an old 5-bit TTY they now use in the field for passing messages during events. It was "fun" getting it to work as a peripheral with modern hardware (to store then send "messages from HQ"). ISTR the relay in the TTY won't fire under about 80VDC. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 21 13:02:53 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:02:53 -0800 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51266F5D.2070301@bitsavers.org> On 2/21/13 3:22 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > The cartridge is made by Dysan and is about 8" in size. > the cartridge is 8" across? any idea how wide or how many platters there are? I'm guessing 5" single? From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 21 13:50:26 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 11:50:26 -0800 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: <51266F5D.2070301@bitsavers.org> References: <51266F5D.2070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51267A82.4060802@jwsss.com> Any idea of the interface on the drive? SMD ANSI? ST506, ESDI or SCSI/SASI? I had several SMD variants, including ones with removable media, and some 5 1/4" drives which were ESDI interface that had single platter 5" sized media. On 2/21/2013 11:02 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/21/13 3:22 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > >> The cartridge is made by Dysan and is about 8" in size. >> > > the cartridge is 8" across? > any idea how wide or how many platters there are? I'm guessing 5" single? > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 21 13:54:20 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:54:20 -0600 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 2/20/13, Allison wrote: >I've used a FTSB USB to serial... Is this shorthand for "FTDI" or is there another manufacturer? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 21 14:01:10 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 12:01:10 -0800 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: <51267A82.4060802@jwsss.com> References: <51266F5D.2070301@bitsavers.org> <51267A82.4060802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51267D06.4030406@bitsavers.org> On 2/21/13 11:50 AM, Jim Stephens wrote: > Any idea of the interface on the drive? SMD ANSI? ST506, ESDI or SCSI/SASI? > It's an Amcodyne (Century Data) 20mb Arapahoe. I'll have a brochure on bitsavers later today. The interface was SMD or SCSI. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 21 13:47:48 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 19:47:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51253FFF.6010005@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Feb 20, 13 01:28:31 pm Message-ID: > > > If you can find them (still) and the input side you use itself doesn't > have a problem, one thing we used to do on any oddball lashup was to buy > a small, 64k or so serial FIFO buffer. it eliminated all sorts of When I had signal level problems, I used a mAX232 chip. I only needed the data leads (TxD and RxD) so 2 buffer cirucits were enough. Each consisted of a receiver section of the MAX232 driving a transmitter extion of the same IC -- that is the logic-level (TTL-ish) output of the receiver was strapped to the input of the transmitter. The receiver section seemed fairly toelreant of waht it woudl accept, the transmitter produced a signal that the receiving machine would tolerate. Took me a few minutes to wire up. I can;'t remember how I powered it, possibly a 7805 running from a junk-box wall-wart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 21 14:29:13 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:29:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 13 01:19:31 pm Message-ID: > Totally. As if the 45.45 bps and 1.4 stop bits and FIGS/LTRS sticky shifts Over here, there were 50 buad and 75 buad Murray code machines (it's not strictly Baudot). > aren't alien enough, the 60 mA current loop uses voltages that you normally > try to keep *away* from digital electronics (I shocked myself a bunch of Ass opposed to digital electormechanics, I assume :-) Actually, the selector magnet (receive solenoid, wahtever) would work at quite low voltages. But it has signifcant inductance, not suprisingly. Now, since the RL cirucit time constant is L/R, if oyuy increase the supply voltage, you need a larger series resistance to keep the current down to the right vlaue, so the time constant goes _down_, implying a faster resposne. That';s why you had 80V or so on the selector magnet circuit. > times with RTTY stuff -- never happened with model 33s). Well, IIRC, the Model 33 puts mains and signals on the smae barrier strip. And that little trip switch fo the reader solenoid on top of the transmitter shaft is not isolated from the mains (!). Don;'t ask how I found that out.... -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Feb 21 16:11:08 2013 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 23:11:08 +0100 Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive Message-ID: I think it's a removable cartridge for Lark disk from CDC. They were strange units with a fixed and a removable disk on the same spindle, with two couple of heads moved by the same linear motor. You could access the fixed/removable disks as separate units. The units were used also in Honeywell machines. I have two units in my depot, but unfortunately no cartridge. I only had a picture of it, and it seems very similar, if not identical. I also have a DEC RC25 unit, designed with the same concept. maybe this cartridge could fit there as well... Could you take some other picture, and possibly the exact size? Do you have also the drive unit? If you can do nothing with this cartridge, in case you don't need it, it could be interesting for me to have it... Andrea From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 21 16:49:15 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:49:15 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <5126A46B.7030508@sydex.com> On 02/21/2013 11:01 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I know some guys who do WWII historical re-enactment as a Signal Corps > (and by a strange coincidence, I was the point of commonality to > someone whose father was in the unit they portray. They were all > happy to meet each other). One of the guys has an old 5-bit TTY they > now use in the field for passing messages during events. It was "fun" > getting it to work as a peripheral with modern hardware (to store then > send "messages from HQ"). ISTR the relay in the TTY won't fire under > about 80VDC. I believe those were 60ma current loop. Back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for amateur computer hobbyists to use one of the 5-level TTYs as a printer. The driver software had to be aware of which half of the character set was being printed ("letters" versus "figures") or you got gibberish. I seem to remember that it was also common practice for RTTY operators to send something like "LTRS LTRS LTRS" when beginning a message to make certain that the receiving end was in the correct mode. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 21 16:50:17 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:50:17 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5C488B9E-51D0-4392-B39F-4B596B5BABB7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 21, at 3:10 AM, allison wrote: > On 02/20/2013 10:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2013 Feb 20, at 11:01 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>> Am 20.02.2013 15:04, schrieb Allison: >>>> On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper >>>>> settings on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - >>>>> there is an ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but >>>>> there is also a Baudot TTY version. >>>>> >>>> There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option >>>> commonly used for the asr33. >>> This was referred to in the listing as "Baudot". You're right, >>> this is not 5 bit baudot/murray code. It is bit-banging tty, in >>> contrast to an ACIA, though. >> >> According to the ref'd manual there is a 'Baudot'/5-level option. >> To quote, page 21: >> >> BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION >> >> The Baudot version of the PROM Monitor .. to support a Baudot >> Teletype .. >> and convert between Baudot (5-level code) and 7-bit ASCII. >> >> The manual goes on to talk about the 5-bit character translations >> and shows a layout of a simple 5-level teletype keyboard. >> >> You guys are forgetting that one of the most affordable terminal/ >> consoles for the computer hobbyist in the Altair era was a 5-bit >> teletype. They were obsolete and available as surplus. 8-bit >> ASR-33s and the like were still current equipment and not cheap. >> If you were lucky you might manage to get your hands on a 7-or-so- >> year-old surplus video terminal for cheap. A current video >> terminal would be another significant expense in addition to the >> computer. >> > I'm not forgetting as I had one of the first Altairs, the 680 was > later. A baudot machine was only a small amount cheaper > and far slower, odd baud rate and code incompatable with the > limited software of the day. In all of LICA > (Long ISland Computer Association) one one person had a baudot > machine (for ham RTTY) and he was > interested in using the computer to replace it. > > Baudot for micros was always an oddity. The 680 was shortly after the first Altair, it was still part of that era, when people were assembling there own systems from whatever they could scrounge together. Odd baud rates and code incompatibilities were exactly what the 680 monitor dealt with. From the code, the in- memory rep was still ASCII and the baud rate was set for 45.45 bps. A friend with an IMSAI paid good money for an ASR-33 at the time. At the same time, my high school received two surplus 5-level machines (for free I expect, as it wasn't something the physics teacher was about to spend significant money on). It wasn't what I would call "only a small amount cheaper". The interest in 5-level machines quickly faded as their limitations became apparent and the industry moved on quickly with built-in video console/terminal support and such, but there was interest in using them. The point is, the 680 monitor did have 5-level support. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 21 17:50:36 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 15:50:36 -0800 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b (rtty) from US Army Signal Corps In-Reply-To: <5C488B9E-51D0-4392-B39F-4B596B5BABB7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <5C488B9E-51D0-4392-B39F-4B596B5BABB7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5126B2CC.9040905@jwsss.com> On 2/21/2013 2:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Feb 21, at 3:10 AM, allison wrote: >> On 02/20/2013 10:14 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> On 2013 Feb 20, at 11:01 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>>> Am 20.02.2013 15:04, schrieb Allison: >>>>> On 02/20/2013 04:17 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> What you have to set the terminal to depends on the jumper >>>>>> settings on the board. It also depends on the monitor itself - >>>>>> there is an ACIA version which can work with 9600 8n1, but there >>>>>> is also a Baudot TTY version. >>>>>> >>>>> There is no baudot TTY option its a 20ma serial loop option >>>>> commonly used for the asr33. >>>> This was referred to in the listing as "Baudot". You're right, this >>>> is not 5 bit baudot/murray code. It is bit-banging tty, in contrast >>>> to an ACIA, though. >>> >>> According to the ref'd manual there is a 'Baudot'/5-level option. To >>> quote, page 21: >>> >>> BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION I have a tape I have deciphered which my Uncle Bill put in a letter to home during his service. I will point you all at my public folder on dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tcx3brnb8oqpvjz/KVNw58LSbN in rtty-tape folder. I had my cousin (his daughter) scan it in sections (was the best I could do). I took those scans and converted it to 5 level information and then hunted for codes that made the most sense. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 21 20:01:32 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:01:32 -0800 Subject: sidetracking to space rockets.. / Re: Hyperterm for Altair 680b (rtty) from US Army Signal Corps In-Reply-To: <5126B2CC.9040905@jwsss.com> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <5C488B9E-51D0-4392-B39F-4B596B5BABB7@cs.ubc.ca> <5126B2CC.9040905@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8F843FCE-E2CC-4C81-8285-06C398FB7707@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 21, at 3:50 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 2/21/2013 2:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION > I have a tape I have deciphered which my Uncle Bill put in a letter > to home during his service. I will point you all at my public > folder on dropbox > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tcx3brnb8oqpvjz/KVNw58LSbN > > in rtty-tape folder. I had my cousin (his daughter) scan it in > sections (was the best I could do). I took those scans and > converted it to 5 level information and then hunted for codes that > made the most sense. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tcx3brnb8oqpvjz/lnCvNC0Ffl/2013-0121- lut-dismantle I have to ask.. is that the Saturn-V/Apollo transporter/gantry being dismantled? I see 1983 on a calendar in one photo. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 21 20:41:38 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:41:38 -0800 Subject: sidetracking to space rockets.. / Re: Hyperterm for Altair 680b (rtty) from US Army Signal Corps In-Reply-To: <8F843FCE-E2CC-4C81-8285-06C398FB7707@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <5C488B9E-51D0-4392-B39F-4B596B5BABB7@cs.ubc.ca> <5126B2CC.9040905@jwsss.com> <8F843FCE-E2CC-4C81-8285-06C398FB7707@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <5126DAE2.3020501@jwsss.com> On 2/21/2013 6:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Feb 21, at 3:50 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: >> On 2/21/2013 2:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> BAUDOT TELETYPE OPTION >> I have a tape I have deciphered which my Uncle Bill put in a letter >> to home during his service. I will point you all at my public folder >> on dropbox >> >> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tcx3brnb8oqpvjz/KVNw58LSbN >> >> in rtty-tape folder. I had my cousin (his daughter) scan it in >> sections (was the best I could do). I took those scans and converted >> it to 5 level information and then hunted for codes that made the >> most sense. > > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tcx3brnb8oqpvjz/lnCvNC0Ffl/2013-0121-lut-dismantle > > I have to ask.. is that the Saturn-V/Apollo transporter/gantry being > dismantled? > > I see 1983 on a calendar in one photo Before I could get a yahoogroup archiver working I wanted to save a set of photos uploaded to the LUT_group on yahoo groups. A member knew the president or vp of the construction company who dismantled the last Launch Umbilical Tower used for the Apollo launches. There was an attempt to have it preserved in its entirety, all 600 tons, and the original group tried its best. The white room and some portions were incorporated into the Saturn exhibit @ KSC. No crawler has been dismantled. Both were upgraded by the Shuttle program, and I doubt they are going to be dismantled. Nasa still has plans which will require them if they can ever get back on track. The group is now devoted to a very serious group of modelers who have a lot of the actual plans for the LUT digitized and in photo albums on the groups photo section. Because of the nature of Yahoo now days, I wanted to archive that and another historical group, the PBY group which is composed of WW2 veterans who flew Consolidated PBY seaplanes, and still deal with them. join http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/LUT_Group/ for these and way more info. thanks Jim From wilson at dbit.com Thu Feb 21 22:53:36 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 23:53:36 -0500 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <5126A46B.7030508@sydex.com> References: <51240242.8050405@comcast.net> <51249494.7000501@iais.fraunhofer.de> <5124D803.1040202@verizon.net> <51251D70.4060105@iais.fraunhofer.de> <66AAE4E2-5F7C-418E-B3E1-97CE42161BB3@cs.ubc.ca> <51260098.3060301@verizon.net> <20130221181931.GA14930@dbit.dbit.com> <5126A46B.7030508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130222045336.GA26401@dbit.dbit.com> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 02:49:15PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I believe those were 60ma current loop. Yes -- and it really was a loop. You'd hook all your stuff up in series (insulated 1/4" jacks since the sleeve isn't necessarily ground) so the loop supply could be pretty substantial. I think MJE340s were fairly standard for solid-state switching in TUs (modems) since they could take the voltage. Before that it was Western Electric bipolar relays (which are things of beauty). >I seem to remember that it was also common >practice for RTTY operators to send something like "LTRS LTRS LTRS" >when beginning a message to make certain that the receiving end was >in the correct mode. One LTRS is enough to reset the carriage, *but* the carriage-return dashpots were pretty big and were slow to react or else might bounce (depending on which way they were misadjusted) so people would end lines with something like CR CR LF LTRS LTRS just to be safe (the LTRSes were just fill characters). Luckily those keys were all near each other. There was an option for some models called "USOS" (unshift on space) which would ... well, unshift on space. But since you never know whether the other guy has it, you can't count on it. But anyway a model 15 etc. would be terrible for computer use since it's missing most of the math characters. Too bad because the type was beautiful... John Wilson D Bit From mcwood at nefkom.net Thu Feb 21 14:09:50 2013 From: mcwood at nefkom.net (Marc Holz) Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:09:50 +0100 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: <254A11F2C5234A4C97B9671B82FEE118@barbaraPC> Hi Chuck, Thank you for the hints. I have a NEC FD1165 which looks different to the BAS6105. Haven't opened the Basf 6105 yet. I'll try to make some pictures to show the differences. The NEC FD1165 is a nice drive. I took it from my Apollo DN300 drive shoebox. No belt mechanism running with 220V/110V. It worked quite some time perfectly. No read errors like my Shugart 851 in reading disks from 1985. But the suddenly the NEC stopped working caused by a rubber part which turned into glue. That glue locked the head mechanism. I remove that glue. Heads are going down again but now I get read errors. Here's a guy from Japan with the same problem (pls. look a image 7) : http://www.geocities.jp/tangoorisyoku/ku__page/ku_cgs/98_mente/8inch_FD1165A /1165A_mente.html I hope to find some time to look at the NEC1165 service manual to perhaps check the head alignement with a scope. The manual shows a procedure how to do that. I don't have an alignement floppy. I hope good floppy from my stock might work. Best Regards, Marc Message: 16 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:54:52 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: <5125705C.10107 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 02/20/2013 12:33 PM, Marc Holz wrote: > I have a BASF 6105 8inch floppy drive and would like to find information on > the jumper settings. According my list, the 6105 is really a rebadged NEC 1165. You can find a basic manual here: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/fjkraan/comp/divcomp/doc/NEC_FD1165_8_inch_fl oppy.pdf Marcus has a maintenance manual on his site: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/NEC/diskette/NEC%20FD1165%20Maintenance. pdf Let me know if this isn't right so I can correct my notes. --Chuck From bigral at hotmail.com Thu Feb 21 16:54:40 2013 From: bigral at hotmail.com (Andriy Romanenko) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 01:54:40 +0300 Subject: russian Elektronika E60 PDP11 Clone, tape Drive CM5300.01.. In-Reply-To: <20130219170229.GA76781@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20130219170229.GA76781@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Hello, here is some docs http://comp.disneyjazz.net/index.html?action=w_podrazdela&id_soderjanie=149 > I've searching for over a year now, hope someone from one of the other > countries behind the iron curtain before is listening here and can help.. From n8uhn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 02:17:49 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 00:17:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR Message-ID: <1361521069.330.YahooMailClassic@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi All, I have an rl-h1800 HHC that is part of a GE two way radio programmer. the display is not displaying full characters from the middle of the display to almost the last third of the display and i noticed that a tv display adaptor was available for the hhc. anyone have one or know where i can get one? i haven't checked out how the display is wired into the hhc but, i'm guessing that it used the flex strip or worse yet, that rubber multi conductor bridge strip with the microscopic wires. has anyone fixed loss of dots on the single line lcd? the ge suitcase programmer does have the i/o expander and also has the printer along with two custom i/o boxes for the radio interface and eprom radio program storage box, so, i do have room for a display adaptor. Thankx, Bill From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Feb 22 02:12:58 2013 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 09:12:58 +0100 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5127288A.3000505@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 21.02.2013 20:54, schrieb Mark Tapley: > At 12:00 -0600 2/20/13, Allison wrote: >> I've used a FTSB USB to serial... > > Is this shorthand for "FTDI" or is there another manufacturer? Concerning the various USB<->serial dongles, I guess this is FTDI. You often find some "PL-2303" circuit in it which uses the FTDI 232. Problem is that there are uncountable drivers for that out there, together with some "fake" PL-2303 circuits that don't work well. If you get a "Code-10" error in Windows, you need to search for another driver. Prolific brought out drivers to defeat te fake dongles but this way also defeated own older products :-( -- Holger From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 22 04:32:00 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:32:00 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Feb 2013, shadoooo wrote: > Could you take some other picture, and possibly the exact size? > Do you have also the drive unit? I'm sorry, no. I only have those bad pictures. We were offered an unknown system (Herzke Computer) that apparently doesn't contain very much interesting parts except that drive and media. The system is too far away from here to just have a look and decide whether it is of interest or not, that I'm thinking of asking the person to just send us that drive/disks. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 22 04:37:11 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:37:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unknown disk cartridge + drive In-Reply-To: <51267D06.4030406@bitsavers.org> References: <51266F5D.2070301@bitsavers.org> <51267A82.4060802@jwsss.com> <51267D06.4030406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Feb 2013, Al Kossow wrote: > It's an Amcodyne (Century Data) 20mb Arapahoe. I'll have a brochure on > bitsavers later today. > The interface was SMD or SCSI. That looks great, thank you! I think these drives are quite exotic today. Christian From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Feb 22 04:50:11 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:50:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon In-Reply-To: References: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1361530211.26051.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello Nigel, the scanning of the Univac documents is almost complete, except for the schematics. This has still to be done. All in all, there are almost 60 binders of documentation with the schematics, but 20 of them are the small binder type (A5). I asked the german "deutsche Museum", if they are interested in the rather complete documentation, but unfortunately, they aren't. Museums in the US ask the donators to pay for the shipment and I'm not gonna do that for these documents, considering the time, it already took me to scan everything and to put it on bitsavers this year. Are you still interested in the docs? If you want more detailed information about them, let me know and I'll provide you with a list of the docs in near future. You do not need to take everything, though it would be good to know, that things go concentrated to a place where such a machine is still on site. I'd like to get rid of the docs in the upcoming months, as I need to change locations this summer. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ >________________________________ > Von: Nigel Williams >An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Gesendet: 23:42 Sonntag, 11.November 2012 >Betreff: Re: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon > >wonderful news Pierre! good work on what sounds to be a Herculean scanning >project. > >I have half of a Unisys System 80/7E (it is actually a Unisys A-series A4 >with a different microcode load to support the System 80 ISA). I'm hoping >to get the remainder of the system sometime in the next year, however aside >from a brochure I have zero documentation for the system and have found >very little about OS3 itself. > >I will be glad to make use of the PDFs once they are available (thank you >for submitting them to bitsavers) and would like to see the printed >material go to a formal organisation for long term preservation. However if >no one steps up then I can be a custodian-of-last-resort rather than seeing >the material discarded. > >cheers, >nigel. >www.retroComputingTasmania.com > >On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >> I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I >> don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the >> documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. >> > > > From gerardcjat at free.fr Fri Feb 22 04:17:46 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 11:17:46 +0100 Subject: Shipping cost USA >> Europe , heavy item ?? Message-ID: Hello All, Does someone known / has experience, with shipping HEAVY items ( 120 lbs ) From States to Europe ?? Cost and which carrier would be recommanded ?? My question is mainly about SHIPPING COST only, ( packaging cost excluded ). Thanks From bob at jfcl.com Fri Feb 22 08:58:01 2013 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 06:58:01 -0800 Subject: MRRT-11 anyone? Message-ID: <002e01ce110d$02da96d0$088fc470$@com> > John Wilson wrote: >I thought it was just a conditional assembly of regular RT-11? >(MRRT$ conditionals in RMONSJ.MAC V4.0 for one). Of course that's >not the same as an actual distribution... I finally got a copy of the MRRT manual to read (thanks, Steve!) and it does require that you have RT11 v4 to build MRRT. I'm sure a lot of the sources were shared, but it looks like there were at least some components (e.g. MRTGEN, DLLOAD) that were unique to MRRT11. There must have been an extra diskette or tape that you had to get from DEC that had the MRRT components. So I'm still stuck looking for a copy - if anybody has it or has seen it, I'd love a pointer. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Feb 22 09:23:04 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:23:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WG: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon In-Reply-To: <1361530211.26051.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1352672435.82070.YahooMailNeo@web133117.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <1361530211.26051.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1361546584.41411.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> ups, that mesage was supposed to be private. Sorry folks. ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ----- Weitergeleitete Message ----- >Von: P Gebhardt >An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Gesendet: 11:50 Freitag, 22.Februar 2013 >Betreff: Re: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon > >Hello Nigel, > >the scanning of the Univac documents is almost complete, except for the schematics. This has still to be done. All in all, there are almost 60 binders of documentation with the schematics, but 20 of them are the small binder type (A5). >I asked the german "deutsche Museum", if they are interested in the rather complete documentation, but unfortunately, they aren't. >Museums in the US ask the donators to pay for the shipment and I'm not gonna do that for these documents, considering the time, it already took me to scan everything and to put it on bitsavers this year. >Are you still interested in the docs? >If you want more detailed information about them, let me know and I'll provide you with a list of the docs in near future. You do not need to take everything, though it would be good to know, that things go concentrated to a place where such a machine is still on site. >I'd like to get rid of the docs in the upcoming months, as I need to change locations this summer. > >Kind regards, >Pierre > > >? >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ > > >>________________________________ >> Von: Nigel Williams >>An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Gesendet: 23:42 Sonntag, 11.November 2012 >>Betreff: Re: Huge lot of Univac/Unisys DCP / System-80 series manuals available soon >> >>wonderful news Pierre! good work on what sounds to be a Herculean scanning >>project. >> >>I have half of a Unisys System 80/7E (it is actually a Unisys A-series A4 >>with a different microcode load to support the System 80 ISA). I'm hoping >>to get the remainder of the system sometime in the next year, however aside >>from a brochure I have zero documentation for the system and have found >>very little about OS3 itself. >> >>I will be glad to make use of the PDFs once they are available (thank you >>for submitting them to bitsavers) and would like to see the printed >>material go to a formal organisation for long term preservation. However if >>no one steps up then I can be a custodian-of-last-resort rather than seeing >>the material discarded. >> >>cheers, >>nigel. >>www.retroComputingTasmania.com >> >>On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 9:20 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: >> >>> I just wanted to make sure the content is scanned and thus saved and as I >>> don't have the hardware and therefore no use for it, I'd like to give the >>> documentation away to somebody who is interested in that. >>> >> >> >> > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 22 09:34:26 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 08:34:26 -0700 Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <1361521069.330.YahooMailClassic@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1361521069.330.YahooMailClassic@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51279002.1070604@brouhaha.com> Bill Allen Jr wrote: > I have an rl-h1800 HHC that is part of a GE two way radio programmer. > > the display is not displaying full characters from the middle of the display to almost the last third of the display and i noticed that a tv display adaptor was available for the hhc. Note that the TV adapter does not (necessarily) replicate what is on the display. You might or might not be able to redirect the display output to the TV adapter, depending on the specific software you're running. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 22 13:16:58 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:16:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <5126A46B.7030508@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 13 02:49:15 pm Message-ID: > gibberish. I seem to remember that it was also common practice for RTTY > operators to send something like "LTRS LTRS LTRS" when beginning a > message to make certain that the receiving end was in the correct mode. It was (or is -- I can't believe there are no old telpritner enthusiasts left :-)). In fact a lot of amateurs sent LTRS after a CR/LF to make sure each line started i nthe right mode, just in case a character on the previous line had been mangeld into FIGS As an aside. many older machines had '3 row' keyboards. That is, 3 rows of keys. The figure shift of QW...OP is 12...90, which makes life a little more tolerable :-). Later machines, like the Creed 444, haev a full 4 row keyboard, but with mechncial interlocks so you can't press keys for symbols in the wrong shift. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 22 13:31:42 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:31:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: <20130222045336.GA26401@dbit.dbit.com> from "John Wilson" at Feb 21, 13 11:53:36 pm Message-ID: > Before that it was Western Electric bipolar relays (which are things of > beauty). OIer here we had 'Carpenter relays' ehich are also thigns of beauty. Settig nthem up is great 'fun', there are numerous adjustments (contact position, whcih can set both the transit time and the bias distortion), magentic bias, etc. there ae even service sheets for them. I have a thing called a TDMS5 which is a test character generator. It can gerneate arbitrary 5-bit characters with controllable distortion for setting up receivers. This thing it valved. The serialiser circuit is a ring coutner of triodes. The output is not surpisngly a carpenter relay. And yes, it can be used to set up carpenter relays (dispaly transit time ,et by the spacing of dots on a CRT) One opther feature is that it can produce a Quick Brown Fox message, again with controlable distortion. The message is troed on a PCB disk with spring ocntacts onit. The disk is moved on one character at time by a solenoid and ratchet mechanis,. And the whoel thing is small enough to fit in a Carpenter relay case. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 22 13:35:59 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:35:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <1361521069.330.YahooMailClassic@web122204.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Bill Allen Jr" at Feb 22, 13 00:17:49 am Message-ID: > > Hi All, > > I have an rl-h1800 HHC that is part of a GE two way radio programmer. How does the RLH1800 differ fro mte RLH 1400? I have had the latter in bits on the bench. > > the display is not displaying full characters from the middle of the > display to almost the last third of the display and i noticed that a tv > display adaptor was available for the hhc. I will ahve to check the schematichs. I seem to rememebr a separae backplane for each dot row in the 1400, but I can't rememebr how many connectios there were for each backplane. You fault might be just a poor conenction to the display ,it might be a defect in the display glass itself. > > anyone have one or know where i can get one? > > i haven't checked out how the display is wired into the hhc but, i'm > guessing that it used the flex strip or worse yet, that rubber multi > conductor bridge strip with the microscopic wires. I am pretty sure the RLH1400 display is conencted byzebra strips' YEss, those';ubber milt connector ... microscopic wires'. If so, takeing the thing apart and clealing the PCB, display, and zebra strips might well fix it. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 22 14:16:53 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:16:53 -0800 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: <254A11F2C5234A4C97B9671B82FEE118@barbaraPC> References: <254A11F2C5234A4C97B9671B82FEE118@barbaraPC> Message-ID: <5127D235.3030801@sydex.com> Hi Marc, Thanks for the information and photos. I'm pretty certain that BASF didn't make 6105. So if it's not an NEC drive, it could be a YE Data drive. But you're right--if you want a real mess, check out some old tape autoloaders from around then. All those bits of rubber are now blobs of goo--and tough as the devil to get cleaned up, much less replaced. Some are worse than others--some drives from the late 90s are starting to do this now. --Chuck From n8uhn at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 14:25:51 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 12:25:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR Message-ID: <1361564751.23830.YahooMailClassic@web122206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Re: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR From: Eric Smith Bill Allen Jr wrote: > I have an rl-h1800 HHC that is part of a GE two way radio programmer. > > the display is not displaying full characters from the middle of the display to almost the last third of the display and i noticed that a tv display adaptor was available for the hhc. > Note that the TV adapter does not (necessarily) replicate what is on the > display. You might or might not be able to redirect the display output > to the TV adapter, depending on the specific software you're running. Thankx for the info. i did read that in the manual and since the ge software only uses text on the single line display, i am hoping it will echo it on the adaptor. unless the adaptor need's to be specifically called in the software to do the echo via the i/o channel,in which case i'll still have to fix the display or change it. Bill From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 15:02:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 13:02:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: <1361566948.59188.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> All those bits of rubber are now blobs of goo--and tough as the devil to get cleaned up, much less replaced. Try GooGone and a host of other things. Can't say for certain but I have to believe there's some way of removing it w/o too much fuss. Tape residue and I realize it's entirely different comes right off with what used to be called Afta, but they were bought by someone years ago. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 22 16:24:34 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 14:24:34 -0800 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: <1361566948.59188.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361566948.59188.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5127F022.2060202@sydex.com> On 02/22/2013 01:02 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > All those bits of rubber are now blobs of goo--and tough as the devil > to get cleaned up, much less replaced. > > Try GooGone and a host of other things. Can't say for certain but I > have to believe there's some way of removing it w/o too much fuss. > Tape residue and I realize it's entirely different comes right off > with what used to be called Afta, but they were bought by someone > years ago. From the sounds of it, probably naphtha. The big problem with a lot of this stuff is that it's been attached to or leaked onto plastic parts. You want to be very careful of what you use on old plastic. Some solvents can cause it to disintegrate. I've had moderate success with mineral spirits. It's terrible yucky stuff, no matter what you use. Benzene (not benzine) would probably also work, but I haven't tried it because it's very difficult to obtain, being classed as a carcinogen and all... --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Fri Feb 22 16:49:26 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:49:26 -0600 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: <5127F022.2060202@sydex.com> References: <1361566948.59188.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5127F022.2060202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <00fe01ce114e$ddabd3f0$99037bd0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 4:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive On 02/22/2013 01:02 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > All those bits of rubber are now blobs of goo--and tough as the devil > to get cleaned up, much less replaced. > > Try GooGone and a host of other things. Can't say for certain but I > have to believe there's some way of removing it w/o too much fuss. > Tape residue and I realize it's entirely different comes right off > with what used to be called Afta, but they were bought by someone > years ago. From the sounds of it, probably naphtha. The big problem with a lot of this stuff is that it's been attached to or leaked onto plastic parts. You want to be very careful of what you use on old plastic. Some solvents can cause it to disintegrate. I've had moderate success with mineral spirits. It's terrible yucky stuff, no matter what you use. Benzene (not benzine) would probably also work, but I haven't tried it because it's very difficult to obtain, being classed as a carcinogen and all... --Chuck Try a product called Spot Shot, made as a carpet cleaner, aerosol, blue can with orange lid. I know Wal-Mart and Sams Club carry it. We use it as a last resort when Goo Gone does not remove the glop or magic marker. A very small squirt goes a long way! Removes magic marker, melted rubber goo from old rubber feet, etc. If the surface to clean is plastic, spray on the rag, and not directly on the surface. Does not harm aluminum or steel, or ABS plastic like monitor housings. It WILL melt the plastic on old dial-up telephones. You can also use MEK, still available at the stores here, but be sure you are well-vented if you do. Another one that works is lighter fluid, but it will harm some plastics. Cindy ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6122 - Release Date: 02/21/13 From chrise at pobox.com Fri Feb 22 16:59:14 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:59:14 -0600 Subject: Hyperterm for Altair 680b In-Reply-To: References: <5126A46B.7030508@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20130222225914.GI27029@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/22/2013 at 07:16PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > gibberish. I seem to remember that it was also common practice for RTTY > > operators to send something like "LTRS LTRS LTRS" when beginning a > > message to make certain that the receiving end was in the correct mode. > > It was (or is -- I can't believe there are no old telpritner enthusiasts > left :-)). In fact a lot of amateurs sent LTRS after a CR/LF to make sure > each line started i nthe right mode, just in case a character on the > previous line had been mangeld into FIGS We are still here! There is mailing list and very active community here, http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys and here, http://www.baudot.net/tty-links.htm When some of us aren't restoring DEC stuff, we're restoring Teletype stuff. I have a model 28 which I've recently restored and I intend to hook it to my Altair 680b... so there! :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist N0JCF From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 17:02:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: <1361574173.46054.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 2:24 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 02/22/2013 01:02 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> All those bits of rubber are now blobs of goo--and tough as the devil >> to get cleaned up, much less replaced. >> >> Try GooGone and a host of other things. Can't say for certain but I >> have to believe there's some way of removing it w/o too much fuss. >> Tape residue and I realize it's entirely different comes right off >> with what used to be called Afta, but they were bought by someone >> years ago. > >From the sounds of it, probably naphtha. > >The big problem with a lot of this stuff is that it's been attached to or leaked onto plastic parts. You want to be very careful of what you use on old plastic. Some solvents can cause it to disintegrate. > >I've had moderate success with mineral spirits. It's terrible yucky stuff, no matter what you use. Benzene (not benzine) would probably also work, but I haven't tried it because it's very difficult to obtain, being classed as a carcinogen and all... > >--Chuck I don't know if contains naptha or not. it was probably named. afta because you use it after you spray down certain surfaces with glue. regardless of what was in it it was very safe for plastic and even painted surfaces as long as you didn't go crazy. I was going nuts trying to clean tape residue off of plastic monitors with thinner, then my father started using the afta that I had an old soda bottle, and it came off quite painlessly. It was a thin colorless liquid, and. IIRC it subsequently was called goof off or.goo gone. I bought a small bottle of something also called goo gone at target for 1$. Haven't used it, but it's yellow in a clear plastic container. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 17:06:31 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:06:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive Message-ID: <1361574391.53346.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It WILL melt the plastic on old dial-up >telephones. >Cindy Hmmm. Not sure when they stopped using it, but I think phones os some vintage were bakelite or phenolic. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 17:21:19 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 15:21:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361575279.94163.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad and would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 22 18:35:27 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:35:27 -0800 Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: <00fe01ce114e$ddabd3f0$99037bd0$@com> References: <1361566948.59188.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <5127F022.2060202@sydex.com> <00fe01ce114e$ddabd3f0$99037bd0$@com> Message-ID: <51280ECF.4050907@sydex.com> On 02/22/2013 02:49 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Try a product called Spot Shot, made as a carpet cleaner, aerosol, blue can > with orange lid. I know Wal-Mart and Sams Club carry it. We use it as a > last resort when Goo Gone does not remove the glop or magic marker. A very > small squirt goes a long way! Removes magic marker, melted rubber goo from > old rubber feet, etc. If the surface to clean is plastic, spray on the rag, > and not directly on the surface. Does not harm aluminum or steel, or ABS > plastic like monitor housings. It WILL melt the plastic on old dial-up > telephones. You can also use MEK, still available at the stores here, but be > sure you are well-vented if you do. Another one that works is lighter > fluid, but it will harm some plastics. Well, I know what I'd try if I could get some--carbon tet or even freon TF. Both used to be as common as dirt and now nearly unobtainium unless you're a commercial airline mechanic or analytical chemist. You don't happen to have any of either rattling around in that warehouse, do you? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 22 19:17:37 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:17:37 -0800 Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts In-Reply-To: <1361575279.94163.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361575279.94163.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 3:21 PM -0800 2/22/13, Chris Tofu wrote: >I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad and >would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. It's just an LK201, right? I'd think that would be easy enough to track down. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 22 19:24:12 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:24:12 -0600 Subject: xmodem problems Message-ID: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> OK, so I hacked a quick 'n dirty xmodem implementation together in RSI BASIC on the QX10 so that I could transfer a few essentials over via the serial link. It worked on a few files, but I've found a couple of problem files where it will consistently block when trying to send an ACK back to the sender following a packet receive - in one file it's on packet 76 every single time, while in the other it's always packet 161 (it receives the complete packet OK, checksum is valid, packet sequence numbers are all good, but it stalls writing to the serial port). Any thoughts? I can't think of a reason why it should work fine on some files, but barf consistently - and at different points - with these other two. I did wonder if there was a particular byte encountered in these packets which hadn't been seen previously in these files (or any of the others I've sent successfully) which was somehow tripping up the underlying serial code on the QX-10, but that's not the case. I suppose there might be a particular magic *sequence* of bytes which is received and causing problems, but that's harder[1] to check for. Oh, I've disabled the disk-write code on the QX-10 just to rule that out, too; it still fails even when it's just tossing received data away. [1] hmm, although I could just zero out the problem packets and see if that stops it happening, I suppose. Will report back. cheers Jules From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 19:30:28 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 17:30:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361583028.23230.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 5:17 PM PST Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 3:21 PM -0800 2/22/13, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad and would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. > >It's just an LK201, right? I'd think that would be easy enough to track down. > >Zane If you say so. I've asked in the past. And would much rather have a broken one so the two can be put to use. A working spare should go to a ready system. I hate waste and I was a moron for dropping it. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Feb 22 19:58:39 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:58:39 -0500 Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts In-Reply-To: References: <1361575279.94163.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5128224F.5020401@verizon.net> On 02/22/2013 08:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:21 PM -0800 2/22/13, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad and >> would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. > > It's just an LK201, right? I'd think that would be easy enough to > track down. > Yep it is. any of the LK201, 301 and a few others should work equally well. Allison > Zane > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 22 20:24:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:24:13 -0500 Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts In-Reply-To: <1361583028.23230.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361583028.23230.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5128284D.6060104@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2013 08:30 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad >>> and would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. >> >> It's just an LK201, right? I'd think that would be easy enough to >> track down. > > If you say so. I've asked in the past. And would much rather have a > broken one so the two can be put to use. A working spare should go to > a ready system. I hate waste and I was a moron for dropping it. I have a few busted LK201s; I will dig through them this weekend. Send me your shipping address. Do you require one that's mechanically sound but electrically busted, or the other way around? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 21:09:09 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:09:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361588949.30545.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 6:24 PM PST Dave McGuire wrote: > I have a few busted LK201s; I will dig through them this weekend. >Send me your shipping address. Do you require one that's mechanically >sound but electrically busted, or the other way around? Assuming that kb still works, just parts, like keytops and that white plastic component that's visible along the top rows at least when the keys are pulled. Even that got chopped up. I'd probably be interested in whatever you got. Why did I sell my Rainbow?? I've sold off 3 in less then a year! Never did find a color card. O sher this stuff is easy to find. Keebees maybe. Not much else. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Feb 22 21:10:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 19:10:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361589055.6102.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 5:58 PM PST allison wrote: >Yep it is. any of the LK201, 301 and a few others should work equally well. > >Allison The pressing question on everyone's mind I'm sure is does Allison keep a Rainbow... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 22 21:30:57 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 21:30:57 -0600 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> On 02/22/2013 07:24 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] hmm, although I could just zero out the problem packets and see if that > stops it happening, I suppose. Will report back. Well... that's confusing! It seems that it's not a particular sequence of data as such; it stalls when the packet checksum byte read from the sender happens to be 19d - which is XOFF. What I don't get is that my packet read code is basically: /// read packet sequence and "anti-sequence" bytes prior to this using byte(3) /// 260 cksum = 0 270 for i = 0 to 127 step 1 280 poke &A000 + i, byte(3) 290 cksum = cksum + db 300 next i 310 cksum = cksum AND 255 320 ckr = byte(3) /// see if computed and read checksums match at this point; send ACK or NAK to the sender accordingly. /// ('byte(3)' is just a blocking call which returns the next byte from the QX10's serial port. The pokes are to an area of mem I set aside for a receive buffer). There's no difference in the way I read packet sequence numbers, packet data, and the checksum byte - it's all done using byte(3) calls - and yet the presence of an XOFF char within the sequence byte (i.e. receiving packet #19) or within the packet's actual data doesn't cause a problem, but it does when #19 happens to be sent as the checksum byte. It's boggling my brain... it seems more like a problem on the sender's side (i.e. the sender is doing something abnormal when sending 19d as a checksum byte that it doesn't do when sending 19d at other times) - but I'm using the stock linux 'sx' command, which I thought had been around for pretty much as long as linux has, and so surely something as fundamental as this would have been found and fixed years ago... cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 22 23:04:53 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 22:04:53 -0700 Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51284DF5.9080905@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > How does the RLH1800 differ fro mte RLH 1400? I have had the latter in > bits on the bench. Different amount of built-in RAM. IIRC there is 8 KiB in the RL-1800 vs. 4KiB in the RL-1400. From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Feb 23 02:24:24 2013 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 08:24:24 +0000 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 23 February 2013 03:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Well... that's confusing! It seems that it's not a particular sequence of > data as such; it stalls when the packet checksum byte read from the sender > happens to be 19d - which is XOFF. Argh... you are bringing back lots of horrible memories about serial systems and flow control... Two thoughts: I presume you've gone through all the options relating to the serial ports on both systems to disable all types of flow control? (not just soft, as some systems like misleading you and implement both anyway.) Would you be able to code up a crc-16 test rather than checksum? less chance of hitting 19d on the last byte.. Rob From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Feb 22 13:09:39 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 14:09:39 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! Murray-- From jjacocks at gmail.com Fri Feb 22 15:19:10 2013 From: jjacocks at gmail.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:19:10 -0500 Subject: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection Message-ID: So, I picked up another old workstation, this time an HP 9000/375. I did a basic clean-up and test, and it does seem to work. With a reversed VGA-to-5BNC cable, I can see the diags run on the monitor. It has 8mb of RAM. So, questions, if anyone here has any knowledge about these beasts. 1) I have the HIL-PS/2 adapter (HP calls is the "keyboard adapter module"), but it doesn't plug in to the HIL port on the machine. There is a descending piece of plastic on the right side of the 10P10C connector that blocks it. I know that this adapter was made for the 9000/700 PA-RISC workstations, will it work with the 375, if I remove that tab? 2) What kind of memory do these machines take? I find reference to a 32mb kit (of 2 16mb modules) via HP part number 98229E. The specs say that this machine will take 128mb. So, should I just try to track down 4 kits? Any other advice would be welcome. This is my first 68k workstation, and I'm hoping to have more, in the future. Thanks! - Alex From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Feb 23 06:19:40 2013 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:19:40 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130223131940.656974c33c9308b588ece1f7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:19:10 -0500 "J. Alexander Jacocks" wrote: > 1) I have the HIL-PS/2 adapter (HP calls is the "keyboard adapter > module"), but it doesn't plug in to the HIL port on the machine. There > is a descending piece of plastic on the right side of the 10P10C > connector that blocks it. I know that this adapter was made for the > 9000/700 PA-RISC workstations, will it work with the 375, if I remove > that tab? No. No way. That litle box from the 715 machines is just a break out box. It breaks out the different pins of the 10P10C connector to the PS/2 keyboard / mouse and the HIL connector. There is no PS/2 => HIL protocol converter in it. It is not a HIL device. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Feb 23 10:01:26 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 11:01:26 -0500 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> On 02/23/2013 03:24 AM, Rob wrote: > On 23 February 2013 03:30, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> Well... that's confusing! It seems that it's not a particular sequence of >> data as such; it stalls when the packet checksum byte read from the sender >> happens to be 19d - which is XOFF. > Argh... you are bringing back lots of horrible memories about serial > systems and flow control... > > Two thoughts: > > I presume you've gone through all the options relating to the serial > ports on both systems to disable all types of flow control? (not just > soft, as some systems like misleading you and implement both anyway.) > > Would you be able to code up a crc-16 test rather than checksum? > less chance of hitting 19d on the last byte.. > > Rob > Simple solution, SLOW DOWN the data rate until it works. Flow control is only needed in systems that cannot handle high rates of traffic. On a lot of the older micros hardware flow control was best if available as the system often was so slow it could not keep up or send xoff in a timely fashion. Also pre enhanced 16450 usart most only could buffer maybe 1 to 3 chars in the part. Allison Allison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 11:58:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 09:58:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 11:09 AM PST Murray McCullough wrote: >Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in >particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community >today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s >computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to >use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without >consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with >the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers >I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., >happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, >rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing >of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! > >Murray-- For a lot of people in the various seasons of life, being acquainted with every aspect of their machines just isn't practical. Most people don't even care, much less have the background to understand what's going on/wrong and what's needed periodically. OS's are way too complex (MS-DOS was complex). Linux is everywhere these days. Yet even it has effectively been hijacked by a malicious corporate monster (in Android). I bought a tablet a few weeks ago, and one of the initial setup screens declared "I agree to accept updates from Google". Apart from hitting "Learn more", and that's only a possibility, don't know, thought of utilizing that after the fact, I had no way of opting out. I won't use the thing on the internet until I figure out how to disable that. Freedom has a price. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Sat Feb 23 12:07:38 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 11:07:38 -0700 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5129056A.6030500@landcomp.net> On 2/23/13 9:01 AM, allison wrote: On 02/23/2013 03:24 AM, Rob wrote: >> On 23 February 2013 03:30, Jules Richardson >> >> wrote: >> >>> Well... that's confusing! It seems that it's not a particular sequence of >>> >>> data as such; it stalls when the packet checksum byte read from the sender >>> >>> happens to be 19d - which is XOFF. >>> >> Argh... you are bringing back lots of horrible memories about serial >> >> systems and flow control... >> >> >> >> Two thoughts: >> >> >> >> I presume you've gone through all the options relating to the serial >> >> ports on both systems to disable all types of flow control? (not just >> >> soft, as some systems like misleading you and implement both anyway.) >> >> >> >> Would you be able to code up a crc-16 test rather than checksum? >> >> less chance of hitting 19d on the last byte.. >> >> >> >> Rob >> >> >> > Simple solution, SLOW DOWN the data rate until it works. > Flow control is only needed in systems that cannot handle high rates of > traffic. > On a lot of the older micros hardware flow control was best if available as > the system often was so slow it could not keep up or send xoff in a timely > fashion. Also pre enhanced 16450 usart most only could buffer maybe > 1 to 3 chars in the part. > > Allison I would definitely agree with that! I have a Xerox 820-II that simply won't transfer anything at higher than 1200 baud, even though it has options for data rates up to 19200. Text transfer was a different story and it would accurately accept text up to 9600, but on binaries, 1200 was max for a successful transfer. ;) Dave Land Land Computer Service From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 23 12:56:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:56:02 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512910C2.5040809@neurotica.com> On 02/23/2013 12:58 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > For a lot of people in the various seasons of life, being acquainted with every aspect of their machines just isn't practical. Most people don't even care, much less have the background to understand what's going on/wrong and what's needed periodically. OS's are way too complex (MS-DOS was complex). > Linux is everywhere these days. Yet even it has effectively been hijacked by a malicious corporate monster (in Android). I bought a tablet a few weeks ago, and one of the initial setup screens declared "I agree to accept updates from Google". Apart from hitting "Learn more", and that's only a possibility, don't know, thought of utilizing that after the fact, I had no way of opting out. I won't use the thing on the internet until I figure out how to disable that. > Freedom has a price. Just "root" it and install something (relatively) open like CyanogenMod. I turned a Nook Color from a useless brick (I haven't read fiction in ~30yrs) to a tablet that I use every day thanks to that approach. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 23 13:00:05 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:00:05 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512911B5.2060802@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2013 02:09 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in > particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community > today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s > computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to > use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without > consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with > the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers > I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., > happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, > rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing > of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! That's the way the suits in industry are attempting to "steer" the rest of us, yes. But why do you say this as if it's some sort of a mandatory thing? There are ALWAYS ways around it. Always. Just don't submit to their attempts at control, and you'll be fine. I didn't (never have!) and I don't have any of these issues. The only technology that I feel I'm "at the mercy" of is binary-only Nvidia drivers...and by and large, they work fine for me so I've never had to worry about them. The only thing that I depend on in my day-to-day life, both personally and professionally, that I don't have the source code for is VMware and the boot ROMs in my machines. Complete control. There's really no reason to accept anything less. "Just Say NO". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Feb 23 13:00:55 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 19:00:55 +0000 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512911E7.8030400@gmail.com> On 23/02/2013 17:58, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ------------------------------ > On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 11:09 AM PST Murray McCullough wrote: > >> Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in >> particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community >> today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s >> computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to >> use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without >> consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with >> the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers >> I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., >> happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, >> rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing >> of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! >> >> Murray-- > For a lot of people in the various seasons of life, being acquainted with every aspect of their machines just isn't practical. Most people don't even care, much less have the background to understand what's going on/wrong and what's needed periodically. OS's are way too complex (MS-DOS was complex). > Linux is everywhere these days. Yet even it has effectively been hijacked by a malicious corporate monster (in Android). I bought a tablet a few weeks ago, and one of the initial setup screens declared "I agree to accept updates from Google". For most idiot users this is a sensible setting... > Apart from hitting "Learn more", and that's only a possibility, don't know, thought of utilizing that after the fact, I had no way of opting out. I won't use the thing on the internet until I figure out how to disable that. > Freedom has a price. > Looking at :- http://www.transformerforums.com/forum/transformer-prime-general-discussions/27133-how-switch-off-automatic-updates.html and assuming yours is the same you probably can't unless you rootkit it, but of course being Linux you should have that option. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Feb 23 13:10:02 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:10:02 -0600 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5129140A.4090703@gmail.com> On 02/23/2013 10:01 AM, allison wrote: > Simple solution, SLOW DOWN the data rate until it works. > Flow control is only needed in systems that cannot handle high rates of > traffic. > On a lot of the older micros hardware flow control was best if available as > the system often was so slow it could not keep up or send xoff in a timely > fashion. Also pre enhanced 16450 usart most only could buffer maybe > 1 to 3 chars in the part. Yes, having slept on it this seems sensible - the transfer rates I'm getting at 9600 seem to be far worse than I'd expect even with the receiver having the overhead of a slow BASIC interpreter, suggesting that the link might be almost saturated with XON/XOFF flow control chars. It still seems odd that receipt of 19d as the checksum byte trips it up, when 19d at other times doesn't; I've looked at the Linux sx code now and it doesn't seem to be doing anything special when it sends the checksum byte that it doesn't do for other data. I don't think I can turn off software flow control from RSI basic (the manual suggests that it's always present), and there seems to be no way of changing the line speed via the basic environment either - but I think there is a TPM util (just not included in the TPM 'install' on the RSI disk) to set the line parameters, so I'll go hunting for that. Hopefully the RSI interpreter honors whatever the OS has previously set up, rather than resetting to its own defaults at startup. Worst-case I suppose I can hack the sx code on the Linux side and introduce some time-wasting loops so that it doesn't send as fast across the 9600 link, but it'd be nice to avoid having to do that if I can. cheers Jules From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 13:17:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 11:17:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1361647050.36647.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Just "root" it and install something (relatively) open like CyanogenMod. I turned a Nook Color from a useless brick (I haven't read fiction in ~30yrs) to a tablet that I use every day thanks to that approach. > > -Dave The Asus tf300 is a different beast. I realize there are roms you can substitute (and haven't heard of that one, previously preoccupied with Zenithink, thanks), but you could brick your tablet in the process, as well as void your warranty. I will root mine prior to the year mark. A bit queasy about swapping out roms though. I'll at least have to see if it's been done on my unit. Is yours the original Nook or the Nook tablet (not the latest)? Are you delving into A* at all? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 23 13:26:50 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:26:50 -0500 Subject: Houston Area help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I may need some short term help with a museum pickup in Houston. It is > a small item (well, sort of - 50 pounds? Certainly trunk of the car > small), but would need pickup in 15 days or so. It is a piece of > avionics gear. Thanks so far the people that responded. At this point, the surplus site is not telling us where the item(s) are exactly, which is annoying. This help is for a Brown University museum. -- Will From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 13:32:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 11:32:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1361647966.58800.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "I agree to accept updates from Google". > >For most idiot users this is a sensible setting. But they don't even have an opt out. Even MalGrowSoft LOL LOLgives you the option. >Looking at :- > >http://www.transformerforums.com/forum/transformer-prime-general-discussions/27133-how-switch-off-automatic-updates.html > >and assuming yours is the same you probably can't unless you rootkit >it, but of course being Linux you should have that option. Hey thanks Dave! Mine isn't the Prime though, the next one (muuuuuch cheaper, not that I payed anything up front). Not that it would matter. But don't worry I'll be busting up this thing in no time. I'll root the DVM and send Google periodic updates!! Those monkeys. >-- >Dave Wade G4UGM >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 23 13:38:47 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 14:38:47 -0500 Subject: Cross country hauling available. Message-ID: Once again, late-April/mid-May will see my roadtripping across the country, from coast to coast. I have quite a lot of unclaimed space that I need to fill up. As in the past, I am offering to move vintage computer equipment for a decent price from source to your doorstop - single items like bulky terminals to six foot racks to mounds of documentation and tapes. Prices are quite reasonable, especially seeing how much freight costs have exploded recently. I can load from just about anywhere, and unload just the same. All items get great care when being loaded, shipped, and unloaded. At this point, it looks like the journey will be New York to Chicago to Denver to Salt Lake to Seattle to San Jose to San Luis Obispo, then back to Boulder to Chicago to New York. At this point, only the Denver to Seattle portion is completely booked, however, this has not been confirmed yet. I also have partial loads from New York to Denver, and hopefully a partial load from San Jose to New York. So, if you need something rescued and hauled, please contact me off list, and we can see what can be done. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 23 15:10:54 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:10:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: from "Murray McCullough" at Feb 22, 13 02:09:39 pm Message-ID: > > Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in > particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community > today? There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s > computing, or computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to > use/employ, nearly by all; everything, or almost, done without > consumer input but turning the infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with > the ?intelligence agents? been employed today! And even our computers > I dare say going this route. Automatic updates, etc., etc., > happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what you want it to do, > rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast becoming a thing > of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! I certainly agree with what you are saying. I don't like to use stuff I don't understand -- in fact I actively avoid it where possible. For that reason I don't even own a modern computer. The old machines I understand -- both hardware and software. THey are simple enough to do that with, ulike modern machines (Even if the documentation was avaialble, which it often isn't). And the point of being able to understnat them is that when things go wrong, or don't do what i expect, I can figure out what it going on and fix/modify it. Darn it, it's _my_ machine, I expect it to do what _I_ want. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 23 15:38:30 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:38:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts In-Reply-To: <1361588949.30545.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 22, 13 07:09:09 pm Message-ID: > > Assuming that kb still works, just parts, like keytops and that white > plastic component that's visible along the top rows at least when the If that 'white plastic component' is the thing the keys clip into, then you are goign to have problems replacig it on its own. The part originally had long pegs moutined on it. THese go through the leaf springs (one under each key), the rubber sheet, 3 layers of mylar and the metal backing plate. THey are then melted over ('heat staked') to hold the whole lot together. Needless to say you can't really remove one and then reattach it. There's not enough pag left to cut off the heat stakes and then re-form them. And it needs to be a solid fixing, it holds the leaf springs after all. I have (once) taken apart a deat LK201 keyboard mechanism to see how it was built. I've not managed to reassemble one reliably. What you wnt ot find is an LK201 with a damageed casing or dead encoder board. YOu cna then use the ocmplete mechanism. The keycaps can be removed (you ned to twist them slithgly to release the lcokign barbs), getting one with the wrong layouyt, or the word processor version, or... is not a problem/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 23 15:40:51 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:40:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <51284DF5.9080905@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 22, 13 10:04:53 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > How does the RLH1800 differ fro mte RLH 1400? I have had the latter in > > bits on the bench. > > Different amount of built-in RAM. IIRC there is 8 KiB in the RL-1800 > vs. 4KiB in the RL-1400. OK, so my notes onth RLH1400 might be of some use. I think they're on the web somewhere (google various forms of 'tony duell', 'a r duell', etc togther with rlh1400), if not I can dig out my master set. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 23 15:23:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 21:23:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Manual for BASF6105 8inch Flp drive In-Reply-To: <5127F022.2060202@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 22, 13 02:24:34 pm Message-ID: > From the sounds of it, probably naphtha. > > The big problem with a lot of this stuff is that it's been attached to > or leaked onto plastic parts. You want to be very careful of what you > use on old plastic. Some solvents can cause it to disintegrate. Some solvents will soften and distort the plastic immediately. This is bad enough, but at least you can test them on an unimprtante area. Woest, though, some slovents can attack the plastic laving it waek and/or brittle. You don't notice this at the time, only after you've ruind the part by completley cleaning it and it falls apart. One of the worst jobs is cleaning up an HP9810/20 printer mechanism where the platten roller has decayed. Unlike the card reader roller i nthe smae machine, which turns to a crumbly powder, the platten turns to a black goo which gets _everywhere_. It's partciularly bad if there's no paper i nthe pritner at the time, bcasue the thermal printhead gets coated i nthe stuff. That part has to be clean to work properly, and it's delecate, s oyou don;'t want to rub it too hard. At least it's a ceramic subrstate on a meatl abcking plate, so no common solvents will attack it. > I've had moderate success with mineral spirits. It's terrible yucky I believe that's what we call 'WHite spirit' over here. It is quite useful (and cheap) for things like this. I find that naphtha (lighter fluid) and propal-2-ol are the only solvents I routinely use. They're safe on most computer parts nad one or other will normally shift most forms of gunge. > stuff, no matter what you use. Benzene (not benzine) would probably > also work, but I haven't tried it because it's very difficult to obtain, > being classed as a carcinogen and all... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 23 16:06:08 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 17:06:08 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1361647050.36647.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361647050.36647.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51293D50.5090706@neurotica.com> On 02/23/2013 02:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Just "root" it and install something (relatively) open like >> CyanogenMod. I turned a Nook Color from a useless brick (I haven't >> read fiction in ~30yrs) to a tablet that I use every day thanks to >> that approach. > > The Asus tf300 is a different beast. I realize there are roms you can > substitute (and haven't heard of that one, previously preoccupied > with Zenithink, thanks), but you could brick your tablet in the > process, as well as void your warranty. I will root mine prior to the > year mark. A bit queasy about swapping out roms though. I'll at least > have to see if it's been done on my unit. Ahh. I'd probably not have bought one, then. ;) > Is yours the original Nook > or the Nook tablet (not the latest)? Are you delving into A* at all? Depends on what you mean by "delving". I'm not doing any app development of any sort; I use it as an appliance. I usually keep it in the lab with its SDcard loaded with datasheets and instrument documentation. I use it pretty much every day. Think "PADDs" in Star Trek: TNG. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From js at cimmeri.com Sat Feb 23 16:50:45 2013 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 17:50:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512947C5.6090604@cimmeri.com> Folks, I'm restoring an 11/34A. One of the MOS memory boards it came with is a circa 1979 Motorola model "MMS1117", variation "58 PC" (64KWords / 18 bits / w/parity). Would like to know if anyone out there has configuration information for this seemingly uncommon board? It's a very high quality board and has socketed RAM, so it'd be especially nice to be able to keep using it. It has 5 switch packs (only 2 of which have markings) and at least a dozen jumpers. I've only been able to locate performance specs for it at: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/motorola/_dataBooks/1979_Motorola_Memory_Data_Book.pdf .... which are excerpted here: www.cimmeri.com/js/download/MMS1117.pdf .... and a photo of the board is here: www.cimmeri.com/js/download/MMS1117.jpg ... a photo of the system itself is here: www.cimmeri.com/js/download/11$34-20.jpg Any help, very much appreciated. Thank you, John Singleton From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Feb 23 17:10:15 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 20:10:15 -0300 Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? References: <512947C5.6090604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: > ... a photo of the system itself is here: > www.cimmeri.com/js/download/11$34-20.jpg Drooling over the photo :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 17:27:55 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 15:27:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1361662075.82169.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Think "PADDs" in Star >Trek: TNG. > > -Dave You keep pulling me into something that'll likely turn into a rant. I am no fan of TNG, and I don't know what they are. I know the original series was considered pc in it's time. But TNG was order of magnitudes more so. So much so I'm sure if it was produced today, Riker and Picard would be having sex in the turbolifts between decks. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Feb 23 17:30:16 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 15:30:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361662216.1258.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >What you wnt ot find is an LK201 with a damageed casing or dead encoder >board. YOu cna then use the ocmplete mechanism. The keycaps can be >removed (you ned to twist them slithgly to release the lcokign barbs), >getting one with the wrong layouyt, or the word processor version, or... >is not a problem/ > >-tony Ok gotcha. Now if I can only get you to respond to the offlsit I sent you :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 23 17:36:31 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 18:36:31 -0500 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1361662075.82169.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361662075.82169.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5129527F.2090608@neurotica.com> On 02/23/2013 06:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Think "PADDs" in Star >> Trek: TNG. > > You keep pulling me into something that'll likely turn into a rant. I do?? > I am no fan of TNG, and I don't know what they are. PADD is an acronym for Personal Access Display Device or something along those lines. It basically means, well, "tablet". They're everywhere, practically disposable, in TNG/DS9/Voyager. > I know the original > series was considered pc in it's time. But TNG was order of > magnitudes more so. Yes. > So much so I'm sure if it was produced today, > Riker and Picard would be having sex in the turbolifts between > decks. No doubt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Sat Feb 23 18:30:40 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:30:40 -0800 Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51295F30.5030705@jwsss.com> On 2/23/2013 1:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> How does the RLH1800 differ fro mte RLH 1400? I have had the latter in >>> bits on the bench. >> Different amount of built-in RAM. IIRC there is 8 KiB in the RL-1800 >> vs. 4KiB in the RL-1400. > OK, so my notes onth RLH1400 might be of some use. I think they're on the > web somewhere (google various forms of 'tony duell', 'a r duell', etc > togther with rlh1400), if not I can dig out my master set. > > -tony I didn't find your schematics on the web, but I think I have a copy if someone wants a copy. I'll put it up on my google drive if anyone wants it and post a link. jim From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sat Feb 23 18:31:51 2013 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 16:31:51 -0800 Subject: More DEC Module photos Message-ID: <1D0940AA9F734CB6ADC0F142132666A4@Vincew7> Hi, Having finished the work for the modules used in the straight-8, the 8/S, PT08, TU55, and the TC01, I'm moving on to other PDP-8 modules. Toward that end, I've made a list of what I'm missing for various pieces of gear related to various models of PDP-8. What I'm looking for here is fairly decent resolution photographs of the component and solder sides of the boards, so I can do the placement and routing accurately. Any revision of these boards is fine for this initial work. 8/L: M703 M705 (I also need these same modules for the 8/I.) 8/I: M702 M703 M704 M705 M714 M716 TC08: G879 M228 M633 M916 PDP-12: A215 A404 A811 G718 G780 G783 G793 G916 M141 M166 M711 M720 M760 W078 Linc-8: A130 B117 B171 G906 R122 R410 W024 W031 W035 W072 W073 (I imagine these will be the hardest to locate, as there are very few surviving examples of some of them.) Thanks, Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 23 19:02:50 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 17:02:50 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? In-Reply-To: <512947C5.6090604@cimmeri.com> References: <512947C5.6090604@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <512966BA.5060300@bitsavers.org> On 2/23/13 2:50 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Folks, I'm restoring an 11/34A. One of the MOS memory boards it came with is a circa 1979 Motorola model "MMS1117", variation "58 PC" (64KWords / 18 bits / w/parity). Would like to know if anyone > out there has configuration information for this seemingly uncommon board? It's a very high quality board and has socketed RAM, so it'd be especially nice to be able to keep using it. It has 5 switch > packs (only 2 of which have markings) and at least a dozen jumpers. > I have a scan of the manual. I'll put it under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/motorola It will probably take a couple of hours for it to show up on the mirrors. From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 23 19:08:47 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2013 18:08:47 -0700 Subject: Stardent documentation now online; Dore' documentation wanted Message-ID: David Gesswein sent me a bunch of Stardent graphics workstation documentation. The last of that documentation has now been scanned, uploaded to bitsavers and added to manx: I would still like to get the documentation for Dore', Stardent's proprietary graphics rendering API. If anyone has Dore' documentation, please contact me so that I can get that online as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 01:08:18 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 07:08:18 +0000 Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <51295F30.5030705@jwsss.com> References: ,<51295F30.5030705@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I didn't find your schematics on the web, but I think I have a copy if > someone wants a copy. I'll put it up on my google drive if anyone wants > it and post a link. The link I have just found is : http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/panasonic-hhc-schematics-by-tony-duell.html -tony From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 02:59:02 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:59:02 +1100 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit Message-ID: We've had some success decoding the various LSI chips found within the IBM Displaywriter System, in this case the external 8-inch floppy drive subsystem (IBM 6360), but one last chip has stumped us, or more accurately stumped our Estonian colleague who was familiar with the IBM to Intel part number mapping, see here: http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164045#164045 Anyone with knowledge of how to implement the NEC D765D floppy disk controller in a detached setup might be able to make a good guess as to the function of the remaining 40-pin DIP IC (labelled 4430030) in the picture? http://i.imgur.com/VtMxSqj.jpg is it another peripheral chip or perhaps a CPU? I'm guessing the former since I don't see anything that might hold ROM code for a CPU. The Intel 4178628 to the right is an Intel 8255A-5 (Programmable Peripheral Interface (PPI)). From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Feb 24 03:12:11 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:12:11 +0100 Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? In-Reply-To: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361642310.64323.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130224091211.GA14894@thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 09:58:30AM -0800, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 11:09 AM PST Murray > McCullough wrote: > > >Should we be surprised at how and why classic-computing, this site in > >particular, is so popular amongst the hobbyist/experimenter community today? > >There is a modicum of control that?s lacking in today?s computing, or > >computing-like, technology. Granted it?s ?easier? to use/employ, nearly by > >all; everything, or almost, done without consumer input but turning the > >infernal beast on. Or, maybe not with the ?intelligence agents? been > >employed today! And even our computers I dare say going this route. > >Automatic updates, etc., etc., happen?Making a computer or otherwise do what > >you want it to do, rather than say an Apple or something akin, is fast > >becoming a thing of the past. Freedom. Let?s hope it?s not pass? either! > > > >Murray-- > > For a lot of people in the various seasons of life, being acquainted with > every aspect of their machines just isn't practical. Most people don't even > care, much less have the background to understand what's going on/wrong and > what's needed periodically. OS's are way too complex (MS-DOS was complex). MS-DOS was _not_ complex, it was a rather trivial OS in both complexity and especially in abilitities. > Linux is everywhere these days. Yet even it has effectively been hijacked by > a malicious corporate monster (in Android). Calling Android "malicious corporate monster" is .. amusing. Especially with most of the source being available via AOSP. I wonder what you call Apple iOS (iPhone/iPad) and Windows Phone (whatever Microsoft is calling it these days) then .. Also, "hijacked"? So I can't get Linux without Android? *psst* Don't tell that to my machines (servers, desktops, laptops) all running Linux but no trace of Android. > I bought a tablet a few weeks > ago, and one of the initial setup screens declared "I agree to accept > updates from Google". Well, the idea is to least reduce as much as possible the number of devices with well-known security holes (and other bugs) in the wild. Of course you are mostly "inconvenienced" by regular updates if you buy an Android Nexus device. Just buy a device from a manufacturer known not to give rats ass about security fixes and you won't be bothered. > Apart from hitting "Learn more", and that's only a > possibility, don't know, thought of utilizing that after the fact, I had no > way of opting out. I won't use the thing on the internet until I figure out > how to disable that. Freedom has a price. Or you could install Cyanogenmod and keep it updated yourself. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 03:58:48 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:58:48 +0000 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> On 24/02/2013 08:59, Nigel Williams wrote: > We've had some success decoding the various LSI chips found within the > IBM Displaywriter System, in this case the external 8-inch floppy > drive subsystem (IBM 6360), but one last chip has stumped us, or more > accurately stumped our Estonian colleague who was familiar with the > IBM to Intel part number mapping, see here: > > http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164045#164045 > > Anyone with knowledge of how to implement the NEC D765D floppy disk > controller in a detached setup might be able to make a good guess as > to the function of the remaining 40-pin DIP IC (labelled 4430030) in > the picture? > > http://i.imgur.com/VtMxSqj.jpg > > is it another peripheral chip or perhaps a CPU? I'm guessing the > former since I don't see anything that might hold ROM code for a CPU. Most of the date codes are towards the end of 1981 so 8144 is the latest I can see. Thats around the time of the IBM PC announcement and I know that used an Intel 8048 as a keyboard controller. So an 8048 or similar, but if so why the 8225A as the 8048 would have enough I/O lines for a floppy controller. > The Intel 4178628 to the right is an Intel 8255A-5 (Programmable > Peripheral Interface (PPI)). From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 24 04:01:37 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 23:01:37 +1300 Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube Message-ID: For those that might be interested. http://youtu.be/ENno_zzst2U Terry (Tez) From jjacocks at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 07:01:09 2013 From: jjacocks at gmail.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 08:01:09 -0500 Subject: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection In-Reply-To: <20130223131940.656974c33c9308b588ece1f7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20130223131940.656974c33c9308b588ece1f7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:19:10 -0500 > "J. Alexander Jacocks" wrote: > >> 1) I have the HIL-PS/2 adapter (HP calls is the "keyboard adapter >> module"), but it doesn't plug in to the HIL port on the machine. There >> is a descending piece of plastic on the right side of the 10P10C >> connector that blocks it. I know that this adapter was made for the >> 9000/700 PA-RISC workstations, will it work with the 375, if I remove >> that tab? > No. No way. That litle box from the 715 machines is just a break out > box. It breaks out the different pins of the 10P10C connector to the > PS/2 keyboard / mouse and the HIL connector. There is no PS/2 => HIL > protocol converter in it. It is not a HIL device. Thanks, Jochen. I'm on the hunt for an HIL keyboard and mouse, and some more RAM! It seems to me that there is precious little information about for the 300-series, compared to some of it's contemporaries, especially the Sun 3/Sun 4 series. - Alex From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Feb 24 07:51:52 2013 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:51:52 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection In-Reply-To: References: <20130223131940.656974c33c9308b588ece1f7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <002401ce1296$1dc46e50$594d4af0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens J. Alexander Jacocks > Verzonden: zondag 24 februari 2013 14:01 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection > > On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > On Fri, 22 Feb 2013 16:19:10 -0500 > > "J. Alexander Jacocks" wrote: > > > >> 1) I have the HIL-PS/2 adapter (HP calls is the "keyboard adapter > >> module"), but it doesn't plug in to the HIL port on the machine. > >> There is a descending piece of plastic on the right side of the > >> 10P10C connector that blocks it. I know that this adapter was made > >> for the > >> 9000/700 PA-RISC workstations, will it work with the 375, if I remove > >> that tab? > > No. No way. That litle box from the 715 machines is just a break out > > box. It breaks out the different pins of the 10P10C connector to the > > PS/2 keyboard / mouse and the HIL connector. There is no PS/2 => HIL > > protocol converter in it. It is not a HIL device. > > Thanks, Jochen. I'm on the hunt for an HIL keyboard and mouse, and some > more RAM! > > It seems to me that there is precious little information about for the 300-series, > compared to some of it's contemporaries, especially the Sun 3/Sun 4 series. > > - Alex If you look at bitsavers or at the hp computer museum site you could come to the conclusion there's a lot of info on the HP 9000 300 series. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/hp/9000_300/ http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=1&cat=40 -Rik From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Feb 24 07:54:00 2013 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:54:00 +0100 Subject: HP 9000/375 Added to the Collection In-Reply-To: References: <20130223131940.656974c33c9308b588ece1f7@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <512A1B78.3080901@e-bbes.com> On 2013-02-24 14:01, J. Alexander Jacocks wrote: > It seems to me that there is precious little information about for the > 300-series, compared to some of it's contemporaries, especially the > Sun 3/Sun 4 series. http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=1&cat=40 You knew that one? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 09:12:12 2013 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:12:12 -0300 Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube References: Message-ID: <597EE99BAF754BACA3BE764C8CDB3672@tababook> Love it! :D --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 7:01 AM Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube > For those that might be interested. > http://youtu.be/ENno_zzst2U > > Terry (Tez) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 24 10:50:02 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:50:02 -0500 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> On 02/24/2013 04:58 AM, Dave wrote: > On 24/02/2013 08:59, Nigel Williams wrote: >> We've had some success decoding the various LSI chips found within the >> IBM Displaywriter System, in this case the external 8-inch floppy >> drive subsystem (IBM 6360), but one last chip has stumped us, or more >> accurately stumped our Estonian colleague who was familiar with the >> IBM to Intel part number mapping, see here: >> >> http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164045#164045 >> >> Anyone with knowledge of how to implement the NEC D765D floppy disk >> controller in a detached setup might be able to make a good guess as >> to the function of the remaining 40-pin DIP IC (labelled 4430030) in >> the picture? >> >> http://i.imgur.com/VtMxSqj.jpg >> >> is it another peripheral chip or perhaps a CPU? I'm guessing the >> former since I don't see anything that might hold ROM code for a CPU. > > Most of the date codes are towards the end of 1981 so 8144 is the latest > I can see. Thats around the time of the IBM PC announcement and I know > that used an Intel 8048 as a keyboard controller. > So an 8048 or similar, but if so why the 8225A as the 8048 would have > enough I/O lines for a floppy controller. I don't see a crystal next to that chip. The sorta-nearby 24MHz crystal is likely for the floppy controller...but unless that's divided down to feed that possible-8048 chip, it may not be an 8048 because it has no attached crystal. (it can also be fed from an external oscillator, if memory serves...the 8051 definitely can) Maybe reverse-engineer the oscillator wrapped around that 24MHz crystal, then see where it goes. Compare that with the pinout of the 8048...if it goes to pins 2 or 3, that further suggests that Mr. 4430030 may be an 8048. You (Nigel, not Dave) mentioned that you didn't think it was a microcontroller because there's no ROM nearby. Don't put too much weight on that, because the 8048 has an on-chip ROM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 11:31:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit Message-ID: <1361727113.9283.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Not likely even in my mind, but the NEC APC utilized both a WD FDC and the 765 via an aftermarket add on. I originally wanted to state that the stock unit had both, but I'd really have to check on that. That part # is 8665. Rockwell used the house # 6765 for their 765 clone. Intels wasx 1272 or 1772 oi I just woke up. This much I do know. The APC comes w/8" drives and utilizes a 765. The aftermarket board which allows for 5 1/4" drives has a WD chip. Go figure. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 11:36:09 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:36:09 -0500 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 24, 2013, at 11:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > Maybe reverse-engineer the oscillator wrapped around that 24MHz > crystal, then see where it goes. Compare that with the pinout of the > 8048...if it goes to pins 2 or 3, that further suggests that Mr. 4430030 > may be an 8048. > > You (Nigel, not Dave) mentioned that you didn't think it was a > microcontroller because there's no ROM nearby. Don't put too much > weight on that, because the 8048 has an on-chip ROM. I was gonna say... My recollection is that the 8048 is the masked rom variant in that family. It wouldn't surprise me to see one with a house part number, given that (though I know at least a few old Epsons that had 8048s for the parallel controller and didn't bother re- marking them). - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 11:47:15 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:47:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? Message-ID: <1361728035.56275.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >MS-DOS was _not_ complex, it was a rather trivial OS in both complexity and >especially in abilitities. my point was it was complex enough for most people that weren't inclined to delve into their computers >Calling Android "malicious corporate monster" is .. amusing. Especially with >most of the source being available via AOSP. I wonder what you call Apple >iOS (iPhone/iPad) and Windows Phone (whatever Microsoft is calling it these >days) then .. They're all monsters are you kidding me. And source code has nothing to do with the FACT that I don't yet have control over what gets installed in my computer. The average hillbilly who buys an Asus tab will say "Oh thank you great Goozitzu, thank you thank you!" when something gets installed (I don't know how to spell it exactly but that means cooley in Croatian). But even the moderately aware user is going to vow violent gory revenge. Down with Lord Goozitzu! >Also, "hijacked"? So I can't get Linux without Android? *psst* Don't tell >that to my machines (servers, desktops, laptops) all running Linux but >no trace of Android. I never said that. You must be working for Lord Goozitzu. >> I bought a tablet a few weeks >> ago, and one of the initial setup screens declared "I agree to accept >> updates from Google". > >Well, the idea is to least reduce as much as possible the number of devices >with well-known security holes (and other bugs) in the wild. Of course you >are mostly "inconvenienced" by regular updates if you buy an Android Nexus >device. Just buy a device from a manufacturer known not to give rats ass >about security fixes and you won't be bothered. I am bothered. But those updates could be any freaking thing. They don't tell me, they don't ask me. >> Apart from hitting "Learn more", and that's only a >> possibility, don't know, thought of utilizing that after the fact, I had no >> way of opting out. I won't use the thing on the internet until I figure out >> how to disable that. Freedom has a price. > >Or you could install Cyanogenmod and keep it updated yourself Someone already suggested that. And it will void my warranty. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 11:49:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 09:49:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit Message-ID: <1361728188.56034.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> so what is the difference between a mask ROM 8048 and an 8748 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 24 11:59:29 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 06:59:29 +1300 Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube In-Reply-To: <597EE99BAF754BACA3BE764C8CDB3672@tababook> References: <597EE99BAF754BACA3BE764C8CDB3672@tababook> Message-ID: > Love it! :D Thanks Alexandre, You might be interested in this article someone in my Google Groups threw up too http://www.filfre.net/2012/12/shiny-and-exciting-vs-dull-and-boring/ Terry (Tez) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 12:36:12 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:36:12 +0000 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <1361728188.56034.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361728188.56034.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512A5D9C.5070103@gmail.com> On 24/02/2013 17:49, Chris Tofu wrote: > so what is the difference between a mask ROM 8048 and an 8748 Looks like the 8748 is EPROM so it would have a window for UV erasing... Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Feb 24 12:36:46 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:36:46 -0500 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <512A5DBE.80702@verizon.net> On 02/24/2013 11:50 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/24/2013 04:58 AM, Dave wrote: >> On 24/02/2013 08:59, Nigel Williams wrote: >>> We've had some success decoding the various LSI chips found within the >>> IBM Displaywriter System, in this case the external 8-inch floppy >>> drive subsystem (IBM 6360), but one last chip has stumped us, or more >>> accurately stumped our Estonian colleague who was familiar with the >>> IBM to Intel part number mapping, see here: >>> >>> http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164045#164045 >>> >>> Anyone with knowledge of how to implement the NEC D765D floppy disk >>> controller in a detached setup might be able to make a good guess as >>> to the function of the remaining 40-pin DIP IC (labelled 4430030) in >>> the picture? >>> >>> http://i.imgur.com/VtMxSqj.jpg >>> >>> is it another peripheral chip or perhaps a CPU? I'm guessing the >>> former since I don't see anything that might hold ROM code for a CPU. >> Most of the date codes are towards the end of 1981 so 8144 is the latest >> I can see. Thats around the time of the IBM PC announcement and I know >> that used an Intel 8048 as a keyboard controller. More likely 8041/8741, same basic MPU part save for it has a bus slave side so it can be used more like a 8255. Obviously with rom/ram and cpu it's programible. >> So an 8048 or similar, but if so why the 8225A as the 8048 would have >> enough I/O lines for a floppy controller. 8048 MPU 64byts or ram (24 of which are registers, and stack) plus 1K ram. the 8049 doubles both ram and rom space internal. 8048 is far from fast enough to do a floppy controller. 2.5us instruciton cycle time. It can do the slow stuff like positioning the head and checking door open, side, track000 but moving data, no. > I don't see a crystal next to that chip. The sorta-nearby 24MHz > crystal is likely for the floppy controller...but unless that's divided > down to feed that possible-8048 chip, it may not be an 8048 because it > has no attached crystal. (it can also be fed from an external > oscillator, if memory serves...the 8051 definitely can) Both can. The max clock is is 11mhz for 804x (fastest versions) and 11for 8051 (fast version) of that time. For a floppy data path controller the likely chips are 1793 prior to 1981 and 765 post. and 8mhz was the likely speed unless they used a DPLL (did not appear in use until until after late 82). > Maybe reverse-engineer the oscillator wrapped around that 24MHz > crystal, then see where it goes. Compare that with the pinout of the > 8048...if it goes to pins 2 or 3, that further suggests that Mr. 4430030 > may be an 8048. 8048, 49 and 8041 had the same clock pins. > You (Nigel, not Dave) mentioned that you didn't think it was a > microcontroller because there's no ROM nearby. Don't put too much > weight on that, because the 8048 has an on-chip ROM. It could be but a reminder the 8048 of the time would have needed external ram for the disk data buffer (at least 128 or 256 bytes) and while the part can address up to 256 bytes of external ram the get-put code cycle is far to slow to keep up with a FDC unless its' single density 8" (64us per byte) The part is FAR TOO SLOW to do bit bashing so an external FDC chip is required to sort out the bits to bytes (765 or 1771, 1793). I might add they are all 40 pin parts (804x, 805x, 1771, 1793, 765) Allison > -Dave > From wilson at dbit.com Sun Feb 24 12:55:14 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:55:14 -0500 Subject: Dust-cover material Message-ID: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> This is a dumb one, but: There used to be commercially available dust covers made out of translucent plastic (vinyl???) that fit over terminals, monitors, printers etc. (and I think there was a full line of custom-fit ones for ham rigs too). It seemed silly at the time but now that I'm chest-deep in old computers/terminals/ peripherals, some of the stuff goes many years between uses and the dust is a real problem. So ... I have a sewing machine (yes older than my computers and come to think of it, it gets dusty too) and more patience than I deserve, but I can't find a source for the kind of plastic sheeting I mean. Hardware-store drop cloths are too flimsy (might as well just use a trash bag) and I've gotten nowhere googling, but maybe that's just because I don't know the correct name. Anyone know what I'm talking about, and where to get it by the yard etc.? Thanks! John Wilson D Bit From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 24 12:59:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 10:59:40 -0800 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <512A5D9C.5070103@gmail.com> References: <1361728188.56034.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512A5D9C.5070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512A631C.7000209@sydex.com> On 02/24/2013 10:36 AM, Dave wrote: > On 24/02/2013 17:49, Chris Tofu wrote: >> so what is the difference between a mask ROM 8048 and an 8748 > Looks like the 8748 is EPROM so it would have a window for UV erasing... I believe that OTP 8748s exist also. No window. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 13:05:27 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:05:27 -0500 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > So ... I have a sewing machine (yes older than my computers and come to > think of it, it gets dusty too) and more patience than I deserve, but I can't > find a source for the kind of plastic sheeting I mean. Hardware-store drop > cloths are too flimsy (might as well just use a trash bag) and I've gotten > nowhere googling, but maybe that's just because I don't know the correct name. > > Anyone know what I'm talking about, and where to get it by the yard etc.? http://www.mytarp.com/clear-plastic-fabrics.aspx -- Will From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 13:13:22 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 11:13:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR Message-ID: <1361733202.69953.YahooMailClassic@web122202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> WOW! someone spent alot of time reverse engineering the hhc and i thank you. i downloaded the schematics. so far i have a lead on a 1400 hhc which should be of use for the programmer or just a display board swap. i have a large bid on ebay for a ge programmer that has an 1800 with a working display and some spare ge modules. im still wondering if the tv display adaptor will work with the ge software but, it seems one cannot be located. anyone know if the tv adaptor has a rom in it? if not, it could be built of some perfboard if the chips are still available. i think i should be good with a working display - i was concerned with display rot but, it seems mine is the only one i've seen that the display went bad in 1 area. others pic's i've seen online all have good displays on them. Bill > I didn't find your schematics on the web, but I think I have a copy if > someone wants a copy. I'll put it up on my google drive if anyone wants > it and post a link. The link I have just found is : http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/panasonic-hhc-schematics-by-tony-duell.html -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 14:01:59 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:01:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <1361728188.56034.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 24, 13 09:49:48 am Message-ID: > > > so what is the difference between a mask ROM 8048 and an 8748 > The 8048 with mask ROM is programemd when the IC is made. In fact the ROM contents are determiend my one of the masked used in making the IC. So it's only practical to have that doen if you are buying many thousands of them with the same program in them. The 8748 has an intenral EPROM for the program store. It can be programed 'in the field' using a special EPROM programmer (it's not the same as a noram lEPROM, but the princple is the same). You can program 1-offs. Cerainy some 8748s ahve quartz windows over the die, so you can erase them. The downside is that he data retention time of an EPROM is probaly less than the life of a mask ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 13:37:05 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:37:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? In-Reply-To: <512947C5.6090604@cimmeri.com> from "js@cimmeri.com" at Feb 23, 13 05:50:45 pm Message-ID: > > > Folks, I'm restoring an 11/34A. One of the MOS memory boards it came > with is a circa 1979 Motorola model "MMS1117", variation "58 PC" > (64KWords / 18 bits / w/parity). Would like to know if anyone out > there has configuration information for this seemingly uncommon board? > It's a very high quality board and has socketed RAM, so it'd be > especially nice to be able to keep using it. It has 5 switch packs > (only 2 of which have markings) and at least a dozen jumpers. I had a similar problem when I got my first PDP11 (a PDP11/45). The donor had wanted to keep the memory that was used in it, he gave me what I later discoveed to be a 32KW MUD board (actually, it could be populated right up to 128KW, of course only 124K of those would be useable). I had no idea how to set the swiches, or indeed, what sort of backplane wiring I would need to use it . This was logn before the days of the web. so there was no way to ask others what to do. And I got it working. I spent a few weeks tracing out the scheamtics of the unknown board and figuring out just what all the switches and jumpers did. A long job, sure, but IMHO worth it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 13:38:20 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:38:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts In-Reply-To: <1361662216.1258.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 23, 13 03:30:16 pm Message-ID: > Ok gotcha. Now if I can only get you to respond to the offlsit I sent you :) I don;t rmemebr this. When did you send it, what was it about? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 14:06:21 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:06:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: from "Nigel Williams" at Feb 24, 13 07:59:02 pm Message-ID: > > We've had some success decoding the various LSI chips found within the > IBM Displaywriter System, in this case the external 8-inch floppy > drive subsystem (IBM 6360), but one last chip has stumped us, or more > accurately stumped our Estonian colleague who was familiar with the > IBM to Intel part number mapping, see here: > > http://www.cpu-world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=164045#164045 > > Anyone with knowledge of how to implement the NEC D765D floppy disk > controller in a detached setup might be able to make a good guess as > to the function of the remaining 40-pin DIP IC (labelled 4430030) in > the picture? > > http://i.imgur.com/VtMxSqj.jpg > > is it another peripheral chip or perhaps a CPU? I'm guessing the > former since I don't see anything that might hold ROM code for a CPU. It could be a microcontrolelr woth internal firmware store. Maybe a 8041/8741/8042/8742 -- the Intel 8048-derivatives that contain a couple of interface registers so you can use them as a complex peripeheral interface on anotehr CPU's bus. Hav eyou treid tracing out any of the conenctions? At least power and ground. Maybe data buses, clock, reset, etc. Often knowing some of those will narrow the possibilties right down. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 24 14:19:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:19:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <1361733202.69953.YahooMailClassic@web122202.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Bill Allen Jr" at Feb 24, 13 11:13:22 am Message-ID: > > WOW! > > someone spent alot of time reverse engineering the hhc and i thank you. > That 'someone' is on this list :-) > i downloaded the schematics. > > so far i have a lead on a 1400 hhc which should be of use for the > programmer or just a display board swap. Waht exactly is the fuatl weit hthe exising one? Mising columns? Missing rows (over part of the displau?) Odd dots missing? > > anyone know if the tv adaptor has a rom in it? > > if not, it could be built of some perfboard if the chips are still available. The only HHC peripheral I ahve seen is the printer/cassette interface and tht contains a ROM and a custom I/O chip. I would be very suprisied if the display interface was all standard ICs. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 24 14:25:56 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:25:56 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <512A7754.4050206@sydex.com> On 02/24/2013 10:55 AM, John Wilson wrote: > This is a dumb one, but: > > There used to be commercially available dust covers made out of translucent > plastic (vinyl???) that fit over terminals, monitors, printers etc. (and I > think there was a full line of custom-fit ones for ham rigs too). It seemed > silly at the time but now that I'm chest-deep in old computers/terminals/ > peripherals, some of the stuff goes many years between uses and the dust is > a real problem. Since they're local to me, this is the place that I use: http://www.econosales.com/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=42&cat=Clear+Vinyl You might also consider cannibalizing a vinyl shower curtain. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 14:27:27 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:27:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit Message-ID: <1361737647.14443.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I believe that OTP 8748s exist also. No window. > >--Chuck that's what I was thinking. I seen a few. and I was going to wait to ask this question after examining hopefully some that I have with windows, can't recall seeing one in my stash though, weather the "code" is visible since it has 1. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 14:29:46 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:29:46 +1100 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: I fear the dreaded static-electricity from plastic materials draped over these machines, firstly is the fear warranted (given the static is "outside"/external to the machine; I'm guessing the discharge is traveling via grounded chassis etc.)? secondly, would plain cotton drop-cloths be preferable as dust protection (and no static)? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 14:45:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <1361738737.73437.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I don;t rmemebr this. When did you send it, what was it about? > >-tony NP. I"ll dig it out and resend it. It had something of a demanding tone, so I just had to wonder... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 14:51:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 12:51:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit Message-ID: <1361739105.50461.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Hav eyou treid tracing out any of the conenctions? At least power and >ground. Maybe data buses, clock, reset, etc. Often knowing some of those >will narrow the possibilties right down. > >-tony Better pictures would help, including the back of the board. What about monitoring the pins with a scope or logic probe even? Probably unnecessary as long as you can get at it's backside. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 15:24:43 2013 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:24:43 +1100 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:50 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > You (Nigel, not Dave) mentioned that you didn't think it was a > microcontroller because there's no ROM nearby. Don't put too much > weight on that, because the 8048 has an on-chip ROM. good point Dave. I think I was indoctrinated as I spent the day sorting QBUS modules (from a similar era) and was seeing CPUs with external masked ROMs/EPROMs, when I sat down later to look at the Displaywriter, I had forgotten all about the 8-bit MCUs with on-board ROM. Allison made an interesting point of the inability of an 8-bit MCU participating in the data stream due to lack of performance. There are two cables exiting the 6360 to connect back to the main system unit (6580), one cable has 14-pins, another has 16-pins. TonyD: not traced the PCB yet, it is one of those IBM grid layouts so everything is jammed next to each other. If I get brave I will remove the board and look on the back to see if the traces are visible. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 16:07:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:07:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube Message-ID: <1361743659.45366.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I watched both this and the A2+ vids Terry. Both well done. I just can't help but wonder how many marriages were put on the rocks by Apple though. And you should really find a Wombat. Or 2 actually, one for me one for you. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Feb 24 16:28:19 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:28:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Terry Stewart wrote: > For those that might be interested. > http://youtu.be/ENno_zzst2U I always enjoy these. Thanks for making them! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 24 16:46:31 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 14:46:31 -0800 Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube In-Reply-To: <1361743659.45366.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361743659.45366.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Terry Great video.I was never an Apple fan. Too much hype and not as friendly for one thatwanted to play with the stuff under the cover.There was documentation but finding things in it was often a hunting job.I finally bought one about 5 years back. I'd always been a fan of JefRaskin ( early Apple employ ) and wanted to play with his Swyft board thatplugged into a Apple IIe.I'd not been able to find on so I wired one up on a piece of proto boardand created the PAL to get it running.When I got my Apple, I just bought one from ebay, internals unseen.What I got was full of surprizes. I had a 3Meg card, printer card, disk II cardand the gem, a SCRG ROM card.The ROM card was loaded with both DOS3.3 and ProDOS. It had a few otherinteresting programs as well. A number of different disk utilities.I saw one of these boards on ebay a little while back but they are rare.I finally found documentation on the board that describes how one can createthe images.Of course, because of the tricks it uses to take over control from the ROMson the Apple, it is incompatable with my Swyft card :(Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 16:56:46 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 17:56:46 -0500 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: > I fear the dreaded static-electricity from plastic materials draped > over these machines, firstly is the fear warranted (given the static > is "outside"/external to the machine; I'm guessing the discharge is > traveling via grounded chassis etc.)? secondly, would plain cotton > drop-cloths be preferable as dust protection (and no static)? Plain cotton is not too bad ESD-wise, as long as there is a little moisture in the room for it to soak up. Not so with various synthetics. Real ESD safe fabric is kind of pricey. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 24 17:29:51 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 15:29:51 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <512AA26F.10405@sydex.com> On 02/24/2013 02:56 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I fear the dreaded static-electricity from plastic materials draped >> over these machines, firstly is the fear warranted (given the static >> is "outside"/external to the machine; I'm guessing the discharge is >> traveling via grounded chassis etc.)? secondly, would plain cotton >> drop-cloths be preferable as dust protection (and no static)? > > Plain cotton is not too bad ESD-wise, as long as there is a little > moisture in the room for it to soak up. Not so with various > synthetics. > > Real ESD safe fabric is kind of pricey. Well, cotton has the problem of capturing dust, which is ameliorated by the ease of washing. On the other hand, some naugahyde is probably another alternative. I think I even have a commercial printer cover made of the stuff. ESD shouldn't be a problem for properly manufactured equipment (which should have passed hi-pot in the design stage). --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 24 17:44:40 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:44:40 -0700 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Real ESD safe fabric is kind of pricey. Maybe not "ESD safe", but advertised as "anti-static poly sheeting" -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 17:51:28 2013 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:51:28 -0500 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: >> Real ESD safe fabric is kind of pricey. > > Maybe not "ESD safe", but advertised as "anti-static poly sheeting" > 4 mils probably would not hold up well at all. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 24 18:12:38 2013 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:12:38 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com>, , , , , Message-ID: Contray to popular belief, the pink poly has no effectat protection parts from static discharge. It isdesigned to not create static when rubbed on othermaterials, not a static blocker. It is useful for packagingwhere the part will be subject to wiggling around.There is a good YouTube video on the subject.The metalized mylar does block static.Tinker Dwight > Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 18:51:28 -0500 > Subject: Re: Dust-cover material > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> Real ESD safe fabric is kind of pricey. > > > > Maybe not "ESD safe", but advertised as "anti-static poly sheeting" > > > > 4 mils probably would not hold up well at all. > > -- > Will From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 24 18:14:54 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:14:54 +1300 Subject: My Apple IIe(s) on Youtube In-Reply-To: References: <1361743659.45366.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Dwight, Thanks for those appreciative comments. Yes, Apples were easy to expand and modify with all sorts of things which made them such a great tool for the hardware hacker. Initially I was not an Apple fan either. Quite the opposite...in my System 80 days I used to consider Apples II/II+/IIes overpriced for what they were and mainly bought by insufferable wealthy snobs. However after I acquired an Apple II+ and IIe (just a few years ago) I've come to appreciate their open design and versatility. Terry (Tez) On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 11:46 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Terry Great video.I was never an Apple fan. Too much hype and not as friendly for one thatwanted to play with the stuff under the cover.There was documentation but finding things in it was often a hunting job.I finally bought one about 5 years back. I'd always been a fan of JefRaskin ( early Apple employ ) and wanted to play with his Swyft board thatplugged into a Apple IIe.I'd not been able to find on so I wired one up on a piece of proto boardand created the PAL to get it running.When I got my Apple, I just bought one from ebay, internals unseen.What I got was full of surprizes. I had a 3Meg card, printer card, disk II cardand the gem, a SCRG ROM card.The ROM card was loaded with both DOS3.3 and ProDOS. It had a few otherinteresting programs as well. A number of different disk utilities.I saw one of these boards on ebay a little while back but they are rare.I finally found documentation on the board that describes how one can createthe images.Of course, because of the tricks it uses to take over control from the ROMson the Apple, it is incompatable with my Swyft card :(Dwight From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 18:50:27 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:50:27 -0800 Subject: Looking for: PET Chicklet keyboard / tape drive Message-ID: <512AB553.7070700@gmail.com> A few years ago I picked up an original PETwhich had been heavily modified. The original keyboard was replaced with a larger, more standard keyboard which is unfortunately both very ugly and which also ended up covered in glue at some point in its past. I'd like to restore it to a more original appearance, is there any chance someone out there has a keyboard and/or tape drive going spare they'd be willing to sell/barter for? Thanks! Josh From slandon110 at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 20:46:28 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:46:28 -0500 Subject: 10-60 dollar an item sale- Trying to raise a down payment for a house Message-ID: <512AD084.4060203@gmail.com> 10 monitor //s $20 dollars each 4 monitor ///s $30 each 32 yellow $20+ Shipping 10 Non Yellowed IIGS Monitors $50 shipped 5 ImageWriter I's $40 All Items here are $30 dollars per item plus shipping 8 Macintosh IIcx 2 Macintosh IIci 3 Macintosh IIsi 3 Beige G3 MiniTowers 2 Beige G3 Desktops 5 PowerMac 6100s 3 Macintosh Centris 610 1 Macintosh Quadra 160 1 Peforma 6110 1 Performa 6116 2 Performa 6115 1 PowerMacintosh 7300/180 1 PowerMacintosh 7500/100 1 PowerMacintosh 7500/100 With Rhapsody DR2 4 PowerMacintosh 7100/66 1 Performa 600 2 Centris 650 1 Macintosh IIVX 4 Macintosh LCs 3 Macintosh LC 575s 1 Macintosh SE FDHD 2 Macintosh SE 800k 5 Macintosh Plus Items here are $50 dollars an item plus shipping Power Mac 9500 132. 160MB RAM, 1GB HDD IXMicro Twin Turbo VGA Card Fresh System 7.6 install. 6 PCI Slots Power Mac 8500/200 48MB RAM 1GB HDD Rhapsody DR2 Installed Items here are 20 dollars an item Sonic MicroPrint Localtalk To Ethernet Bridge eMachines T-16 Nubus VGA Video Card NIB Radius PrecisionColor 24X Video Card Microsoft Softcard Z80 Card for Apple II All Apple Keyboards $15 each If you dont see it listed I probably have it From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 21:19:34 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:19:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Archimedes Message-ID: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do you have a problem withit? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 21:32:48 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:32:48 -0600 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: a what now? On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? > For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do you > have a problem withit? > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 21:44:17 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:44:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Archimedes Message-ID: <1361763857.80358.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 7:32 PM PST Adrian Stoness wrote: >a what now? C: Homina Homina Homina. Ah said ah said... From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 21:53:50 2013 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:53:50 +1300 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512AE04E.7090001@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 4:19 p.m., Chris Tofu wrote: > My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do you have a problem withit? I assumed everyone had them. Where else can you find a computer with a GUI that can also run all of your BBC Master Series applications? I have an A4000, mostly for nostalgic value as my parents purchased me one brand new in 1992, for the most part I live for the BOOP when you turn it on. First time posting, hopefully my email client doesn't make a mess of it. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 21:55:52 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:55:52 -0600 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361763857.80358.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361763857.80358.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: huh? On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 7:32 PM PST Adrian Stoness wrote: > > >a what now? > > C: Homina Homina Homina. Ah said ah said... > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 22:07:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 20:07:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Archimedes Message-ID: <1361765257.69664.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >I assumed everyone had them. >Where else can you find a computer with a GUI that can also run all of your BBC Master Series applications? > >I have an A4000, mostly for nostalgic value as my parents purchased me one brand new in 1992, for the most part I live for the BOOP when you turn it on. > >First time posting, hopefully my email client doesn't make a mess of it. Don't know who posted what's above yours. Other then that, are you an enthusiast, or just here for curiosity? There's roughly 2 camps here - those that collect and use very little, and those that actually use their old equipment regularly, and may even collect. It's an interesting unit, just wanted some discussion of it. Needless to say it's rarely seen on this side of the puddle. Otherwise how do you feel about Google/Goozitzu these days? Welcome to the list. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 24 22:09:27 2013 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:09:27 +1300 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I recently bought an Acorn 4000 (recently as in last week). I decided I needed one to round out the collection a bit. I've been so busy lately I haven't actually played with it yet! Terry (Tez) On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 4:32 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > a what now? > > On Sun, Feb 24, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? >> For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do you >> have a problem withit? >> From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 22:44:52 2013 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:44:52 +1300 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361765257.69664.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361765257.69664.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512AEC44.2030501@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 5:07 p.m., Chris Tofu wrote: > Don't know who posted what's above yours. Other then that, are you an > enthusiast, or just here for curiosity? There's roughly 2 camps here - > those that collect and use very little, and those that actually use > their old equipment regularly, and may even collect. It's an > interesting unit, just wanted some discussion of it. Needless to say > it's rarely seen on this side of the puddle. Otherwise how do you feel > about Google/Goozitzu these days? Welcome to the list. I collect and use - but mostly the "use" comes from restoring other machines or playing old games. VCForum members will know me as "SpidersWeb" and most of my collection is PC based. I have a room dedicated to the old machines (I need to buy another three desks, but almost finished), a workdesk for repair in another room, and a dry garage to help with storage. Non-PC gear would be an Amiga 2000, Commodore 64C, Commodore VIC20, Acorn A4000 (although both the Commodore's are in the to-be-repaired line up). The A4000 needed a slightly quicker CPU in my opinion and expansion was kind of limited until the RISC PC era with the 'slices' business - but Acorn/BBC history in education and a respectable price made it quite attractive to people like my parents in 1992 (we still had BBC/Acorn-only stores at that time). It's also capable of emulating an 8088 under software but I remember that being a bit slow. Mine has the 4Mb RAM upgrade, 10BaseT network adaptor, and the standard 80Mb Conner IDE and 3.5 floppy. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 23:02:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:02:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Archimedes Message-ID: <1361768524.86644.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Mine has the 4Mb RAM upgrade, 10BaseT network adaptor, and the standard 80Mb Conner IDE and 3.5 floppy. > > Nicely equipped. When you say pc gear, do you IBM compatible or incompatible? Do you have a Nimbus yet? If no, Why not? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Feb 24 23:09:47 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:09:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM Thinkpad 755? lcd's, new 10$ + shipping Message-ID: <1361768987.60491.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I have a number of these. The possibility is they might get dumpsterized. FRU P/N 48G8723. Some still in the box, some still in sealed a.s. bags, a couple loose. Get them while they're hot, otherwise not. I have 1 loose nos Commie. SX-64 crt left, currently on. ebay. If anyone wants it, or anything else, I'll pull it. From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 23:53:48 2013 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 06:53:48 +0100 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361768524.86644.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361768524.86644.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I might like such addition in my collection. And the problem is, that they are not common here. (I live in Poland.) -- Ola Hughson From jonathan.chote at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 00:35:09 2013 From: jonathan.chote at gmail.com (Jonathan Chote) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:35:09 +1300 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361768524.86644.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361768524.86644.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512B061D.3020706@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 6:02 p.m., Chris Tofu wrote: > Nicely equipped. When you say pc gear, do you IBM compatible or incompatible? Do you have a Nimbus yet? If no, Why not? Thanks. There is a seller locally who is selling upgraded machines, so I can't take any credit for hunting/building unfortunately! Except for the Acorn/Commodore/Amiga items, it's all IBM PC compatible. I don't have any personal history with the Nimbus, so haven't tried hunting one down. Generally for my collection I target machines I owned while growing up, or anything with an IBM logo. The machines I definitley want to add now would be an Amstrad CPC model (my first computer), and an IBM PC AT 5170 (the only one missing from my PC collection). Although a BBC Model B and Apple II wouldn't hurt (except my wallet that is) From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 25 00:48:43 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:48:43 -0800 Subject: Fwd: Spacewar! on S/360 In-Reply-To: <1939758601383432.WA.spmcbrideus.ibm.com@listserv.ua.edu> References: <1939758601383432.WA.spmcbrideus.ibm.com@listserv.ua.edu> Message-ID: <512B094B.9090804@jwsss.com> Thought I'd pass this on. I'm sure that most Hercules people will see this, but not sure about the cctalk folks. thanks Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Spacewar! on S/360 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:51:12 -0600 From: Sean P. McBride Reply-To: IBM Mainframe Discussion List To: IBM-MAIN at LISTSERV.UA.EDU Newsgroups: bit.listserv.ibm-main All, I recently found out that Edson Hendricks (the creator of VNET) wrote a copy of Spacewar! for the IBM System 360 while he was an MIT student. It was based on the PDP-1 version, and it was used by MIT for their annual open house in either 1965 or 1966. My understanding is that this S/360 version ended up getting played by IBMers at the IBM Research Lab, which resulted in a corporate ban of running the software on IBM machines. Considering that the source should run on modern IBM mainframes with some code modification, I thought that this might be something worth resurrecting for the 50th anniversary of the System 360 announcement. Do any of you ever recall playing this game on an IBM mainframe or hearing about others that might have done this? Do any of you have suggests for finding the source code for this S/360 version? Edson does not have a copy, and I have not yet heard back the from Computer History Museum. Thanks for your help!!! Respectfully, Sean P. McBride Millennialmainframer.com From g-wright at att.net Mon Feb 25 00:55:43 2013 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 22:55:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for VAX 11/730 Console tape and Diagnostic manual Message-ID: <1361775343.59452.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Try to get one going here. Just cant fine the Diagnostic manual DEC # EK-DS730-UG. Also need the Console/Microcode tape or image. found a wounded image out there, but would like to find the original contents. This is on DecTape (TU58) Thanks, Jerry From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 25 01:07:24 2013 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 01:07:24 -0600 Subject: cheap flash RAM for sale In-Reply-To: <50F4C7F1.9090407@neurotica.com> References: <50F48F86.3000201@neurotica.com> <00ba01cdf2a3$74e1ab70$5ea50250$@com> <1358202110.8345.YahooMailNeo@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00c201cdf2a7$6b7321a0$425964e0$@com> <20130114232811.B204BA580E1@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <50F4C7F1.9090407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <512B0DAC.2040501@jbrain.com> Bulk buy of TSOP32 AT49F512, as noted in here earlier. I am happy to sell by tray (156 = ~$32) at cost + at cost shipping. Let me know off list. Probably will buy end of this week. Jim From jgevaryahu at gmail.com Sun Feb 24 15:55:03 2013 From: jgevaryahu at gmail.com (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 16:55:03 -0500 Subject: need DEC Rainbow keyboard for spare parts Message-ID: <512A8C37.5010303@gmail.com> > On 02/22/2013 08:30 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>> I sold my R* like a fool. K/b was broken up, and now I feel bad >>>> and would like to get the guy a working replacement or parts. >>> It's just an LK201, right? I'd think that would be easy enough to >>> track down. >> If you say so. I've asked in the past. And would much rather have a >> broken one so the two can be put to use. A working spare should go to >> a ready system. I hate waste and I was a moron for dropping it. > I have a few busted LK201s; I will dig through them this weekend. > Send me your shipping address. Do you require one that's mechanically > sound but electrically busted, or the other way around? > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA If anyone has a DEAD LK201 (with the membrane damaged or shorted irrepairably) which has *RED* LEDs (which blink an error code due to the shorted/damaged membrane when powered up), please let me know. I'm hunting for one to get a working 23-004M2 masked 8051 microcontroller from. (i.e. as seen in this random picture I found on GIS: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro/images/LK201-INTERNAL.JPG ) The LK201 with *GREEN* leds has a 23-001S9-00 MC68HC05 MCU in it instead, and I am not interested in this one (as the extant scanned lk201 schematic does not cover it and the PCB has a small custom ASIC in addition to the MCU which seems irreplaceable). -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 01:45:20 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2013 23:45:20 -0800 Subject: Is Craig Dewick around anymore ? The www.sunshack.org guy downunder. In-Reply-To: <1361775343.59452.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1361775343.59452.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512B1690.5000309@gmail.com> I have tried to contact him for several years and now the site seems down. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 25 03:28:09 2013 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:28:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Feb 2013, Dave McGuire wrote: > Maybe reverse-engineer the oscillator wrapped around that 24MHz > crystal, then see where it goes. Compare that with the pinout of the > 8048...if it goes to pins 2 or 3, that further suggests that Mr. 4430030 > may be an 8048. According to my list, the 8048 has a different number: 6833161 8048 MICROPROCESSOR Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 03:29:38 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:29:38 +0000 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512B2F02.8060609@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 03:19, Chris Tofu wrote: > My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do you have a problem withit? I don't own one.... Why? Well its not 6800/6809/68K based which was my interest area at the time, it doesn't have midi ports so I never got interested in it.... Have a problem.. Not especially, but I think it couldn't make up its mind if it was an educational or a business computer..... Odd coincidence though, the Radio club I am a member of meets at the same place as the Northwest UK Riscos user group... http://www.ronwug.org/ForthcomingMeetings and they were having a meeting last Wednesday when I popped to do a lecture to some of our trainees... Dave G4UGM (I also gather RISCOS runs on the Raspberry PI) From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Feb 25 03:33:18 2013 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:33:18 +0100 Subject: russian Elektronika E60 PDP11 Clone, tape Drive CM5300.01.. In-Reply-To: References: <20130219170229.GA76781@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20130225093318.GA43176@beast.freibergnet.de> Andriy Romanenko wrote: > > Hello, > > here is some docs http://comp.disneyjazz.net/index.html?action=w_podrazdela&id_soderjanie=149 > > > I've searching for over a year now, hope someone from one of the other > > countries behind the iron curtain before is listening here and can help.. > > Looked at his, they have the different 8080 based Controller for the tape there, nothing bout the MC2707 aka I17... Thanks anyway, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Feb 25 03:44:34 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 01:44:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vector Graphic MZB-5025 Message-ID: <1361785474.47755.YahooMailClassic@web181605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I recently bought a Vector Graphic MZB-5025 and its matching display and keyboard from a seller on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-Graphics-MZB-5025-Computer-Z-80-CPU-64K-RAM-BIT-STREAMER-II-/300858037555 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-Graphics-MT-Terminal-Mindless-Terminal-and-Keyboard-/290859059295 The keyboard and display are packaged like a terminal, with styling nearly identical to the SOROC IQ-120, but the video generation is actually performed on an S-100 card in the main chassis. The seller did not pack the terminal properly at all, and the fragile structural foam enclosure was shattered in transit: http://www.flickr.com/photos/20002766 at N03/sets/72157632849299607/ I thought I was buying a nicely packaged and complete S-100 system that would need only electronic repairs at most, but instead ended up this mess. I imagine that the case could be restored with some fiberglass cloth, resin, and body filler, but I'm not up for it myself. If anyone on the list as a particular affinity for Vector Graphic gear and would undertake such a restoration, please let me know. I could probably be talked into turning loose of the entire system for next to nothing. --Bill From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Mon Feb 25 01:48:46 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 07:48:46 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <201302250748.r1P7ml4W075524@mx1.ezwind.net> Hi I was recently given a Strobe 100 plotter, with an S-100 bus interface card, but no information at all about the protocols or commands or other details needed to connect with and use it. I have searched the usual places and cannot find any manuals or details. Does anyone have a manual for the 100 (or the similar models 200 or 260), or even remember enough to help me get this working. My requirements for it are very simple, pen R, L, F and B, plus pen up and pen down are all I need to command it to do, always in single unit steps. I am going to interface this to my 1130 replica as a replacement 1627 plotter (small Calcomp device rebadged by IBM for 1620 and 1130 computers). The 1130 only needed those few commands I listed above from its plotter. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 05:06:53 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:06:53 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? In-Reply-To: <201302250748.r1P7ml4W075524@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302250748.r1P7ml4W075524@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <512B45CD.8090903@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 07:48, Claunch,Carl wrote: > Hi > > I was recently given a Strobe 100 plotter, with an S-100 bus interface card, but no information at all about the protocols or commands or other details needed to connect with and use it. I have searched the usual places and cannot find any manuals or details. Does anyone have a manual for the 100 (or the similar models 200 or 260), or even remember enough to help me get this working. My requirements for it are very simple, pen R, L, F and B, plus pen up and pen down are all I need to command it to do, always in single unit steps. I am going to interface this to my 1130 replica as a replacement 1627 plotter (small Calcomp device rebadged by IBM for 1620 and 1130 computers). The 1130 only needed those few commands I listed above from its plotter. > > Carl Poking around on the net, in particular here:- http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n2/212_Print_about_printers.php and here http://www.cpm.z80.de/roche/DRGDOC.TXT and here http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/convergent/manuals_b20/1180098_B20_Graphics_Programmers_Guide_R4.0_May85.pdf (Page 135 onwards) implies that the interface is RS232 and that it kind of understands a subset of HPGL.... > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 05:29:53 2013 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 03:29:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fw: [N8VEM-S2I:128] Version 0.3C Firmware Message-ID: <1361791793.66553.YahooMailClassic@web184302.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi Quick update on the S2I SASI/SCSI-1 to IDE/SD bridge board.? A great deal of progress recently.? Still making adjustments to the next generation S2I prototype board.? Will be converting from EEPROM to Flash to enable 20 MHz operation.? Still looking for additional testing for compatibility.? Will post when available. ? Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch --- On Sun, 2/24/13, Wayne Warthen wrote: From: Wayne Warthen Subject: [N8VEM-S2I:128] Version 0.3C Firmware To: n8vem-s2i at googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, February 24, 2013, 10:49 PM I have posted an updated firmware archive on the Wiki. ?This update includes: Debug and non-debug variations. ?Non-debug goes much faster, but does not dump any diagnostics on serial port. Support for FORMAT UNIT and VERIFY commands. Improved performance in PPI IDE interface driver. Support for multiple LUNs I am generally finding that the non-debug version is running about the same speed as a real ST125N hard disk when using a 12MHz CPU clock on the SCSI2IDE. ?Given a fast enough ROM chip, 20MHz operation works and achieves much better performance than a real ST125N. If anyone is getting close to testing, let us know! Thanks, Wayne -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "N8VEM-S2I" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to n8vem-s2i+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. ? ? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 08:20:56 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:20:56 -0600 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512B7348.9030100@gmail.com> On 02/24/2013 09:19 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? > For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do > you have a problem withit? I had an A310, A440, A540, A3000, A3010, A3020, A4000 and A5000 (plus a SARPC) - they're capable machines, but for me just not nearly as much fun as Acorn's earlier 8-bitters, and I decided that the cost of shipping them across to the US was too much for the enjoyment I'd get out of them. The main reason I'd want one now is for the 'experience' of the GUI, but I could probably do that via an emulator without losing anything - I don't normally care much for emulators in comparison to the real hardware, but that changes a lot when the real hardware is just a VGA-ish screen, mouse, keyboard and the OS loads quickly from ROM/hard disk. I do still have a Simtec Hydra multi-processor board set, so should perhaps get myself an RPC to put it in one day (it's quirky and "a bit different", so still appeals) and I kept my ARM copro for the BBC micro along with a couple of ARM copros on ISA cards, just in case I ever want to mess around with ARM coding on some real hardware. I *might* still have one of the set-top cable TV boxes which runs RISC OS under the covers - I can't remember if I kept one or not now (I had a vague plan to run one as a remote graphics terminal, but never quite got the tuits together :-) If you're going to buy one, I'd say go for an A540, then you can always run RISCiX on it as well as RISC OS. cheers Jules From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Feb 25 10:08:34 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 08:08:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1361808514.9389.YahooMailNeo@web142503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >On 02/24/2013 09:19 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >>>My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why not? >>For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? Do >>you have a problem withit???I had an A310, A440, A540, A3000, A3010, A3020, A4000 and A5000 (plus a >SARPC) - they're capable machines, but for me just not nearly as much fun >as Acorn's earlier 8-bitters, and I decided that the cost of shipping them >across to the US was too much for the enjoyment I'd get out of them. The main reason I'd want one now is for the 'experience' of >the GUI, but I >could probably do that via an emulator without losing anything - I don't >normally care much for emulators in comparison to the real hardware, but >that changes a lot when the real hardware is just a VGA-ish screen, mouse, >keyboard and the OS loads quickly from ROM/hard disk. I do still have a Simtec Hydra multi-processor board set, so should >perhaps >get myself an RPC to put it in one day (it's quirky and "a bit different", >so still appeals) and I kept my ARM copro for the BBC micro along with a >couple of ARM copros on ISA cards, just in case I ever want to mess around >with ARM coding on some real hardware. I *might* still have one of the set-top cable TV boxes which runs RISC OS >under the covers - I can't remember if I kept one or not now (I had a vague >plan to run one as a remote graphics terminal, but never quite got the >tuits together :-) If you're going to buy one, I'd say go for an A540, then you can always run >RISCiX on it as well as RISC OS. >cheers Jules I looked into buying a Acorn Archimedes/RISCPC system the cost kill that idea to get my riscOS fix I decided to get a RaspberryPi and buy the??RISC OS Pi SD card from RISC OS Open[1] [1] https://www.riscosopen.org/content/ --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > ? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 25 11:03:23 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:03:23 -0700 Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: References: <5129E458.5020800@gmail.com> <512A44BA.4080005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <512B995B.2090200@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > According to my list, the 8048 has a different number: > 6833161 8048 MICROPROCESSOR That would presumably be the IBM part number for an 8048 with a specific ROM mask. With different ROM contents, they'd have a different part number. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 11:02:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:02:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM etc. plotters Message-ID: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Maybe they're the next big thing I don't know. You'd sure get that impression looking at the eBay listings. I payed 5$ for my largish IBM 7374?. No carousel though. I've never actually run it, but it powers up and all, though reports an error after a bit ***Need docs***. I plan on machining/fabricating a carousel. You really don't need one someone pointed out, for circuit board work, or really anything, so long as you're willing to manually change pens. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 25 11:02:13 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:02:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM etc. plotters Message-ID: <1361811733.10410.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Maybe they're the next big thing I don't know. You'd sure get that impression looking at the eBay listings. I payed 5$ for my largish IBM 7374?. No carousel though. I've never actually run it, but it powers up and all, though reports an error after a bit ***Need docs***. I plan on machining/fabricating a carousel. You really don't need one someone pointed out, for circuit board work, or really anything, so long as you're willing to manually change pens. From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 25 11:18:38 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:18:38 -0600 Subject: old 9-pin monitors Message-ID: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me know. _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 25 11:30:48 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:30:48 -0600 Subject: IBM etc. plotters In-Reply-To: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101ce137d$d9b6f910$8d24eb30$@com> >From looking at the old plotters we have here, the only difference in the HP carousels was 6 pen or 8 pen. Other than that, they all appear to be the same? Maybe they're the next big thing I don't know. You'd sure get that impression looking at the eBay listings. I payed 5$ for my largish IBM 7374?. No carousel though. I've never actually run it, but it powers up and all, though reports an error after a bit ***Need docs***. I plan on machining/fabricating a carousel. You really don't need one someone pointed out, for circuit board work, or really anything, so long as you're willing to manually change pens. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 25 11:39:29 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 09:39:29 -0800 Subject: IBM etc. plotters In-Reply-To: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512BA1D1.3060006@bitsavers.org> On 2/25/13 9:02 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > IBM 7374?. ***Need docs***. it's an HP7580A From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 11:41:50 2013 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:41:50 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 114, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Longshot...is it possible that the 8255A is really an 8355A (same w/ mask programmed ROM)? That could make the unknown chip an 8085A (among many other things). From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 11:50:36 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:50:36 +0000 Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <512B7348.9030100@gmail.com> References: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512B7348.9030100@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 25 February 2013 14:20, Jules Richardson wrote: > > The main reason I'd want one now is for the 'experience' of the GUI, but I > could probably do that via an emulator without losing anything - I don't > normally care much for emulators in comparison to the real hardware, but > that changes a lot when the real hardware is just a VGA-ish screen, mouse, > keyboard and the OS loads quickly from ROM/hard disk. Raspberry Pi. Runs RO 5.19 natively. And under RO, it's a fast, responsive computer, as opposed to being a sluggish dog under Linux. Yes, even Raspian. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 25 12:19:34 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 10:19:34 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with this and they include a case for $57. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 25 12:23:40 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:23:40 -0600 Subject: IBM etc. plotters In-Reply-To: <512BA1D1.3060006@bitsavers.org> References: <1361811744.91693.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512BA1D1.3060006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00b301ce1385$3c9aa930$b5cffb90$@com> http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.aspx?SearchText=7580A lists all the parts for this plotter. it's an HP7580A ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 12:43:58 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:43:58 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested in > one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended version, > price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? Recommended version is 2.0 Model B (that happens to have 512MB; the 1.0 "B" has 256MB but those shouldn't be in the dealer channels anymore). Everything shipping as new for months now is a 2.0 Model B (the "A" is only starting to ship in Europe, so doesn't come into play with US orders). Primary distributors (MCM Electronics or element14/Newark) charge $35 + S&H for it (and sales tax if you are in their state). Secondary distributors (Adafruit, etc) often charge $40 plus S&H and tax. > I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with > this and they include a case for $57. Sellers on eBay are marking things up a bit because demand is still higher than supply. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 12:53:25 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:53:25 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <072141F2-124F-4AB1-B2AA-54A9BADD11BB@gmail.com> On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:19 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been > interested in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the > recommended version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? > > I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay > with this and they include a case for $57. You will almost certainly want a Model B, since the Model A has no Ethernet. In theory, the bare board costs $35 in the US, which includes nothing but the board; in particular, you need to supply a Micro-USB power supply (easier to find now that the EU has mandated them for cell phones, which drove that decision for the designers). The kit you're seeing on eBay may include that, but make sure to check. I got mine directly from one of the UK distributors when they were pretty new because I put in a preorder a few hours after they opened. In the US, the local RS distributor is Allied; here's the direct link to the purchase page: http://www.alliedelec.com/lp/120626raso/ eBay may be a better choice if you want to get it quickly, especially if your seller is offering a nice package deal. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 13:01:00 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:01:00 -0600 Subject: xmodem problems In-Reply-To: <5129140A.4090703@gmail.com> References: <51281A3C.4050605@gmail.com> <512837F1.1030402@gmail.com> <5128E7D6.2070809@verizon.net> <5129140A.4090703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512BB4EC.6010701@gmail.com> On 02/23/2013 01:10 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/23/2013 10:01 AM, allison wrote: >> Simple solution, SLOW DOWN the data rate until it works. >> Flow control is only needed in systems that cannot handle high rates of >> traffic. >> On a lot of the older micros hardware flow control was best if available as >> the system often was so slow it could not keep up or send xoff in a timely >> fashion. Also pre enhanced 16450 usart most only could buffer maybe >> 1 to 3 chars in the part. > > Yes, having slept on it this seems sensible - the transfer rates I'm > getting at 9600 seem to be far worse than I'd expect even with the receiver > having the overhead of a slow BASIC interpreter, suggesting that the link > might be almost saturated with XON/XOFF flow control chars. It still seems > odd that receipt of 19d as the checksum byte trips it up, when 19d at other > times doesn't; I've looked at the Linux sx code now and it doesn't seem to > be doing anything special when it sends the checksum byte that it doesn't > do for other data. > > I don't think I can turn off software flow control from RSI basic (the > manual suggests that it's always present), and there seems to be no way of > changing the line speed via the basic environment either - but I think > there is a TPM util (just not included in the TPM 'install' on the RSI > disk) to set the line parameters, so I'll go hunting for that. Hopefully > the RSI interpreter honors whatever the OS has previously set up, rather > than resetting to its own defaults at startup. Well, I found the util and dropped the line speed down to 1200 baud - and it still dies at exactly the same point! I seem to have a workaround in that I found a modem.sys util with a file transfer mode that's 'compatible enough' with xmodem (it always times out on the first packet receive, but then does the right thing and gets the sender to re-send, after which everything transfers without trouble). I'm still puzzled by why this was failing though; something somewhere was obviously getting confused, but it's hard to tell what the root cause is (or quite why it only affects the checksum byte and not other transmitted data) Once I've got MEX or IMP set up on there (as suggested by Gene) then it doesn't really matter, I suppose. :-) cheers Jules From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 25 13:16:03 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:16:03 -0800 Subject: Is Craig Dewick around anymore ? The www.sunshack.org guy downunder. In-Reply-To: <512B1690.5000309@gmail.com> References: <1361775343.59452.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <512B1690.5000309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512BB873.1040404@jwsss.com> Looks like it is just about to expire. archive.org has crawls of it. if you do a whois, there is a contact listed ORBnet Comptroller Phone:+61.61295202547 On 2/24/2013 11:45 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have tried to contact him for several years and now the site seems > down. > > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 13:20:08 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:20:08 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25 Feb 2013 18:26, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? > > I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with this and they include a case for $57. If you want to keep it super cheap, try to find a Linux user upgrading to the 512MB version. 256MB is a vast amount of RAM for Risc OS, whereas it is not enough for a graphical Linux desktop. You really don't need half a gig for Risc OS, unless of course you want to run Linux as well. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 25 13:30:51 2013 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:30:51 -0500 Subject: Vector Graphic MZB-5025 References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 01:44:34 -0800 (PST) From: William Maddox I recently bought a Vector Graphic MZB-5025 and its matching display and keyboard from a seller on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-Graphics-MZB-5025-Computer-Z-80-CPU-64K-RAM-BIT-STREAMER-II-/300858037555 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vector-Graphics-MT-Terminal-Mindless-Terminal-and-Keyboard-/290859059295 The keyboard and display are packaged like a terminal, with styling nearly identical to the SOROC IQ-120, but the video generation is actually performed on an S-100 card in the main chassis. The seller did not pack the terminal properly at all, and the fragile structural foam enclosure was shattered in transit: ... --Bill ------ Reply: I believe someone on the Vintage Computer Forum has a Mindless Terminal that he doesn't know what to do with (he thought it was a 'normal' RS-232 terminal); maybe he'd like to see it go to an appreciative home: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?35650-Terminal-hook-up&highlight=terminal Failing that, you can use an ordinary RS-232 terminal, although you may have to burn a new monitor ROM. FYI, if you decide to keep it, there is a Vector Graphic user group and quite a bit of documentation and software available. mike From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 13:48:26 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:48:26 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8741BEDC-4C59-4169-BD12-060891410A6C@gmail.com> On Feb 25, 2013, at 2:20 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 Feb 2013 18:26, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested > in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended > version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? >> >> I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with > this and they include a case for $57. > > If you want to keep it super cheap, try to find a Linux user upgrading to > the 512MB version. 256MB is a vast amount of RAM for Risc OS, whereas it is > not enough for a graphical Linux desktop. Well, a modern one, anyway. I remember running KDE quite happily in 32 MB on a 486 a long time ago. I would love if someone would make a lightweight, POSIX-compliant OS for old desktops, because even the formerly lightweight BSDs make my older machines crawl, and that's without graphics. I'd like an OS that's compatible with the modern world but which lets me put old/small machines to serious use, a la Classilla. I guess the Open Source credo would tell me to suck it up and make my own. Push another idea on the stack that never gets popped, I guess... - Dave From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 25 14:59:00 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:59:00 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 question Message-ID: <00f701ce139a$f0071390$d0153ab0$@com> I have been testing my C64s today, and 1 works perfectly, joysticks and game, etc. Hooked up via DIN cable to 3 RCA to Commodore color monitor, everything is fine. My questions are these: 1 of the C64 powers on, but absolutely nothing appears on the screen. 1 of the C64 has a totally different pin configuration for the monitor and disk drive, only 5 pins for the monitor. The FCC ID, model number, etc. is exactly the same as the others, but these connections are different. Any ideas? _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 15:12:39 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:12:39 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: <00f701ce139a$f0071390$d0153ab0$@com> References: <00f701ce139a$f0071390$d0153ab0$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have been testing my C64s today, and 1 works perfectly, joysticks and > game, etc. > > Hooked up via DIN cable to 3 RCA to Commodore color monitor, everything is > fine. Perfect. > My questions are these: > > 1 of the C64 powers on, but absolutely nothing appears on the screen. That is the most common failure mode, called "the black screen". Most common cause is a faulty "PLA" (Programmable Logic Array). It can be replaced with the PLA from another machine or can be burned from a blank 82S100. Second most common cause is bad DRAM - 4164s. It's usually the PLA. > 1 of the C64 has a totally different pin configuration for the monitor and > disk drive, only 5 pins for the monitor. The FCC ID, model number, etc. is > exactly the same as the others, but these connections are different. Any > ideas? The oldest Rev boards have a 5-pin DIN for video - the 5 pins that line up with an 8-pin DIN carry the same signals, IIRC. They used to make a 5-pin video cable that worked with both models. I've even used an ancient (1960s) 5-pin DIN *audio* cable with RCA breakouts, but the colors didn't match up (IIRC, that cable was 2 black, 2 red, but I found the signals I needed in there). You will probably need to find/make a 5-pin DIN video cable for that one or sell it untested. Not sure about why you'd see a difference with the disk interface. That should be a 6-pin-DIN on all C-64s (and VIC-20s, where it appeared first). -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 15:18:57 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:18:57 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512BD541.5020903@gmail.com> On 02/25/2013 01:20 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 Feb 2013 18:26, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested > in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended > version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? >> >> I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with > this and they include a case for $57. > > If you want to keep it super cheap, try to find a Linux user upgrading to > the 512MB version. 256MB is a vast amount of RAM for Risc OS, whereas it is > not enough for a graphical Linux desktop. You really don't need half a gig > for Risc OS, unless of course you want to run Linux as well. Yes, that would be my thought, too. I don't particularly care about the extra RAM, but having Ethernet is a must (for me). Actually, relatively-recent Slackwares run quite happily on my old Thinkpad with (IIRC) 192MB, so I'd assume that 256MB is plenty on the Pi for Linux so long as it's not running anything too bloated. I can't remember now; does the 'Pi have RS232 built in (poss. with the addition of external line drivers)? cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 25 15:20:57 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:20:57 -0700 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: In article <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com>, "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me > know. These are MDA (monochrome display adapter) and CGA (color display adapter) monitors, right? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From sales at elecplus.com Mon Feb 25 15:28:37 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:28:37 -0600 Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: References: <00f701ce139a$f0071390$d0153ab0$@com> Message-ID: <010201ce139f$1320d650$396282f0$@com> Well, not totally a black screen, just nothing on it. When u turn the C64 on or off, the screen flickers for an instant, then blank screen. This particular also emits a very faint screech or whine. I prob have a 5-pin to RCA somewhere, will scrounge some more. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 3:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Commodore 64 question On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > I have been testing my C64s today, and 1 works perfectly, joysticks > and game, etc. > > Hooked up via DIN cable to 3 RCA to Commodore color monitor, > everything is fine. Perfect. > My questions are these: > > 1 of the C64 powers on, but absolutely nothing appears on the screen. That is the most common failure mode, called "the black screen". Most common cause is a faulty "PLA" (Programmable Logic Array). It can be replaced with the PLA from another machine or can be burned from a blank 82S100. Second most common cause is bad DRAM - 4164s. It's usually the PLA. > 1 of the C64 has a totally different pin configuration for the monitor > and disk drive, only 5 pins for the monitor. The FCC ID, model > number, etc. is exactly the same as the others, but these connections > are different. Any ideas? The oldest Rev boards have a 5-pin DIN for video - the 5 pins that line up with an 8-pin DIN carry the same signals, IIRC. They used to make a 5-pin video cable that worked with both models. I've even used an ancient (1960s) 5-pin DIN *audio* cable with RCA breakouts, but the colors didn't match up (IIRC, that cable was 2 black, 2 red, but I found the signals I needed in there). You will probably need to find/make a 5-pin DIN video cable for that one or sell it untested. Not sure about why you'd see a difference with the disk interface. That should be a 6-pin-DIN on all C-64s (and VIC-20s, where it appeared first). -ethan ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 25 15:29:55 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:29:55 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:20 PM +0000 2/25/13, Liam Proven wrote: >On 25 Feb 2013 18:26, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested >in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended >version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? >> >> I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with >this and they include a case for $57. > >If you want to keep it super cheap, try to find a Linux user upgrading to >the 512MB version. 256MB is a vast amount of RAM for Risc OS, whereas it is >not enough for a graphical Linux desktop. You really don't need half a gig >for Risc OS, unless of course you want to run Linux as well. I'd want the option of putting Linux on there. Though my current UNIX box only has 256Mb. :-) Realistically I'll probably see about turning it into a PDP-11 or PDP-10 after I play with RISC OS for an hour or two. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 15:33:52 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:33:52 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512BD541.5020903@gmail.com> References: <512BD541.5020903@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 4:18 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/25/2013 01:20 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Yes, that would be my thought, too. I don't particularly care about the > extra RAM, but having Ethernet is a must (for me). All "B" models have Ethernet; The "A" model will not have it. > Actually, > relatively-recent Slackwares run quite happily on my old Thinkpad with > (IIRC) 192MB, so I'd assume that 256MB is plenty on the Pi for Linux so long > as it's not running anything too bloated. Raspbian is a debian flavor for Pi. The 'bloat' would be when you want to run Java apps under X... > I can't remember now; does the 'Pi have RS232 built in (poss. with the > addition of external line drivers)? There is a connector for a serial port. It's 3.3V levels (like all the other I/O pins), so you need suitable line drivers. It will even work as a serial console if you so desire. You can use one of the 3.3V FTDI cables or roll your own circuit with discrete components or a Dallas-Maxim chip. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 16:08:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:08:10 -0500 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com>, > "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > >> If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me >> know. > > These are MDA (monochrome display adapter) and CGA (color display > adapter) monitors, right? Also EGA? I don't think they're necessarily 100% interchangeable with CGA monitors, though my memory of what's different is no better than Wikipedia's. Worth knowing which, anyway. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 16:15:41 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:15:41 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 question In-Reply-To: References: <00f701ce139a$f0071390$d0153ab0$@com> Message-ID: <2867BA9D-F897-4321-A65A-12E5D9692B85@gmail.com> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 3:59 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus > wrote: >> 1 of the C64 powers on, but absolutely nothing appears on the screen. > > That is the most common failure mode, called "the black screen". Most > common cause is a faulty "PLA" (Programmable Logic Array). It can be > replaced with the PLA from another machine or can be burned from a > blank 82S100. Second most common cause is bad DRAM - 4164s. It's > usually the PLA. I have a similar problem; I've noticed that the IRQ line is constantly asserted, which it's not if I just pull the VIC (of course, that could be because the boot routine is crashing; the VIC otherwise looks like it's probably working fine, since it emits a proper NTSC black screen with color burst). Is there a relatively simple test that can be done with an analog scope (no storage) that can determine whether the PLA is bad? Some of the outputs, at least, seem to toggle. I'd like to narrow it down before I put down the money for a replacement part. - Dave From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 25 16:16:44 2013 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:16:44 -0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6D491173FAAC4FA393668AB6CA32ACF1@ANTONIOPC> Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > > Raspbian is a debian flavor for Pi. The 'bloat' would be > when you want to run Java apps under X... Mine's a happy bunny: [ $ uname -a Linux arpione 3.1.9+ #168 PREEMPT Sat Jul 14 18:56:31 BST 2012 armv6l GNU/Linux $ cat /proc/meminfo MemTotal: 220592 kB ] I keep (some of my) my electronic notes on it, use it for developing handy ruby scripts and keep a simple webserver running on it. I'm using git and periodically pushing to a NAS box. It's a DNS server for the home network. It will eventually be a NIS server too (so I can set up an environment like the one at work with "single sign on"). If I go ahead and get a second one to use as a media treamer for the TV, I'll probably use this one (256MiB) for the media and the new one (512MiB) as the household workhorse. Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] wrote: > I'd want the option of putting Linux on there. Though my current > UNIX box only has 256Mb. :-) Realistically I'll probably see about > turning it into a PDP-11 or PDP-10 after I play with RISC OS for an > hour or two. I've got as far as installing SIMH on mine. I've not yet grabbed a VMS ISO so that I can actually boot a VAX (yet ...). Too many projects, too little time ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 25 16:19:12 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:19:12 -0700 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com>, > > "Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus" writes: > > > >> If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me > >> know. > > > > These are MDA (monochrome display adapter) and CGA (color display > > adapter) monitors, right? > > Also EGA? EGA and CGA have compatible signalling, but MDA is very different (TTL vs. analog signalling). Presumably the color ones she mentions are either CGA or EGA and the mono ones are MDA. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 25 16:37:24 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:37:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: <20130225143621.U25099@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: > Also EGA? I don't think they're necessarily 100% interchangeable > with CGA monitors, though my memory of what's different is no > better than Wikipedia's. Worth knowing which, anyway. In general, . . . MOST EGA monitors were designed to ALSO handle CGA. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 25 15:56:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 21:56:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <1361762374.61008.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 24, 13 07:19:34 pm Message-ID: > > > My offlist question to Tony was does he own an AA, and if not why > not? For the rest of you Britishers,do you own one, and if not why not? > Do you have a problem withit? > FWIW 'AA' is _never_ used as an abreviation for Acorn Archimedes. To answer the question/Yes I ahve one. Or rahter I have 3 -- an A310, A3000 and A3010 IIRC. Do I use them? Not really. I don't like RISCOS from what I've seen of it, and the machines are not conducive to much hardware hacking either. Does the ARM Evulation System count? I have that too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 25 16:02:43 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:02:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn Archimedes In-Reply-To: <512B061D.3020706@gmail.com> from "Jonathan Chote" at Feb 25, 13 07:35:09 pm Message-ID: > The machines I definitley want to add now would be an Amstrad CPC model > (my first computer), and an IBM PC AT 5170 (the only one missing from my > PC collection). You have the XT/286 (5162 I think)? THat was the hardest one for me to find. Do you have the 5161 expansion unit? > Although a BBC Model B and Apple II wouldn't hurt (except my wallet that is) > Neither should eb that hard to find... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 25 16:04:49 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:04:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: what chip is that? IBM Displaywriter 6360 Diskette Unit In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Feb 25, 13 10:28:09 am Message-ID: > According to my list, the 8048 has a different number: > 6833161 8048 MICROPROCESSOR Since the 8048 has an internal mask-programmed ROM, it would make a lot of sense for the house number to be different for ICs with different ROM contents. HP _certainly_ did this wither their house numbers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 25 16:45:50 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:45:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Feb 25, 13 10:19:34 am Message-ID: > > The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been > interested in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the > recommended version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? Over here Maplin sell a starter kit which they claim includes everything you need. Well, it obviosuly doens't include a monitor. Nor does it inlcude a case for the Rpi or any documentation. What it does include is the Model B Rpi, USB hub, PSU, USB keyboard, USB mouse, WiFi dongle, SD card with Rasbian and a couple of cables. There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, adn the docuemtnion. The hardwae: I am not goign to maon about the USB ports. Or the HDMI output. Or the fact that it's one partly-undocuemnted chip. I am goign to moan abotu that GPIO port. It directly conencts to the ARM-thing. So if you make a mistake, you wreck the Rpi. Logic signals are at 3.3V (not suprisingly), but there's a 5V supply on tyhe GPIO connector, jsut waiting to be shorted to the wrong thing byu a mis-wired cable. Oh, and the GPIO port has nowhere near enough pins. You have a 2 wire async port (TxD and RxD. SPI with a couple of CS lines. I2C. And 8 user I/O lines which may not be a single 8 bit port (so there may not be aquick way to send out a byte). ARGH! What I would have done is to buffer the snync port to RS232 levels on the board (lets face it, most people who want this port at all, wat RS23 2 levels). DO that with a _socketed_ MAX3232. BLow that up, jsut repalce it. If you need a 3.3V async port, pop out the MAX3232 and put a jumper array acorss the socket. Then buffer the I2C port. bring that out, and also have a couple of PCF8574s (8 bit I/O) and a PCF8591 (8 bit ADC/DAC) on the board. Again socketed. Yes it would be more expensive, but it might actually be useful On a more generaly note, it looks a mess. There are a lot of bits to plug together for the complete system. The board has conenctors all round it. And it needs a case, there are SMD components on both sides of the PCB. Software : Unless you have a fast internet connection that you can connet the Rpi to, it's pretty much unusalbe. The suppleid Raspbian does not include sources, and there is no obvious pointer as to where to get them (since this is supposed to be an educational machine, it fails spectacularly here). There are also all sorts of thigns misisng form the standard distribution. YEs, you can install them, but. you ened the internet conenction. It is possible to instal them from an USB mass storage device (memory stick, etc), but while it's obviosu to those who know debvian linux, it is not documented. Well, it is sort-of i passing, but that documentation is wrong. Docuemntation : What documentation? Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. For a machien aimed at beginners, there should be a set of instruciton of ghte form 'plug this in here'. Look at the original BBC micro user guide. There is a 3rd party user guide. It is a joke. For a achie nthat is supposed ot teach programming, I would think the section on programming should be rather logner than it is. And should mentuion things like variables. Loops. Subroutines. ARGH! There is no docuemtnation on msot of the linux commands. No problem for us, but... In particular, there is no docuemtned way to back up the OS. Yes, you can connect a USB card readeer, put in another SD card, and dd it over. Fine if you know how to use dd. Not fine if you don't. Again, there needs ot be a specific set of instructions on how to do this. Especially as it's all too easy to mis-configure the machien so it won't boot. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 25 16:59:34 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:59:34 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <6D491173FAAC4FA393668AB6CA32ACF1@ANTONIOPC> References: <6D491173FAAC4FA393668AB6CA32ACF1@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: At 10:16 PM +0000 2/25/13, wrote: >Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] wrote: >> I'd want the option of putting Linux on there. Though my current >> UNIX box only has 256Mb. :-) Realistically I'll probably see about >> turning it into a PDP-11 or PDP-10 after I play with RISC OS for an >> hour or two. > >I've got as far as installing SIMH on mine. I've not yet grabbed a VMS >ISO so that I can actually boot a VAX (yet ...). > >Too many projects, too little time ... Looking at the info on the Raspberry Pi website, it looks like the CPU is equivalent to about a Pentium II 300Mhz. That would give it about 1.5x the speed of a KL10 under KLH10, or maybe 2x a fast PDP-11 under E11 or SIMH, I suspect it would still be slower than a VAX-11/725, VAX-11/730, or MicroVAX I. I think an Atom board would be the minimum for VAX emulation. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 25 17:08:17 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:08:17 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi (off topic) In-Reply-To: <6D491173FAAC4FA393668AB6CA32ACF1@ANTONIOPC> References: <6D491173FAAC4FA393668AB6CA32ACF1@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <512BEEE1.5070103@jwsss.com> On 2/25/2013 2:16 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I keep (some of my) my electronic notes on it If you do keep these sorts of services on the device, recall that SD failure modes tend to be horrible and unrecoverable. they simply brick. Hopefully you can periodically back it up, or spend the extra to have a duplicate for when that might happen. I'm running 64gb in both of mine and they run quite well. I'm not hosting any data on them however that I can't replace by duplicating the other PI's chip. I'm actually thinking about shifting to the Odroid 1.7ghz Exynos 4412, both because it will run android and because it is in my phone (Galaxy Note II). I want both Linux for my development and some media usage, whith XBMC and with the Android Jelly bean for other media uses in the house and elsewhere. I am hosting some emulators on the PI, but will probably move them to the odroid if it proves to be fast enough. Object is to reduce the house intel server population to just one vmesxi system. thanks Jim current Pi population raspian on a Pi version B x 2 Linux pi 3.2.27+ #250 PREEMPT Thu Oct 18 19:03:02 BST 2012 armv6l GNU/Linux MemTotal: 448996 kB rootfs 59G 2.8G 53G 6% / From wlewisiii at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 17:34:02 2013 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:34:02 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:26 PM, wrote: > From: "Zane H. Healy" > At 7:20 PM +0000 2/25/13, Liam Proven wrote: >>On 25 Feb 2013 18:26, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >>> >>> The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been interested >>in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the recommended >>version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? >>> >>> I assume I want a "2.0 Model B 512Mb"? I've found a seller on eBay with >>this and they include a case for $57. >> >>If you want to keep it super cheap, try to find a Linux user upgrading to >>the 512MB version. 256MB is a vast amount of RAM for Risc OS, whereas it is >>not enough for a graphical Linux desktop. You really don't need half a gig >>for Risc OS, unless of course you want to run Linux as well. > > I'd want the option of putting Linux on there. Though my current > UNIX box only has 256Mb. :-) Realistically I'll probably see about > turning it into a PDP-11 or PDP-10 after I play with RISC OS for an > hour or two. > > Zane The latter projects would be fun. I've been pondering getting one to put as small a linux distro on as possible and then getting Brad Parker's CADR emulator http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/ running on it. That would make for a screaming little LISP machine :) Getting SIMH & running 2.11BSD on it's emulated PDP-11 or VMS on the emulated VAX could be entertaining as well. William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 17:34:06 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 23:34:06 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi vs competition (was Raspberry Pi) Message-ID: <397909390-1361835244-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1435928418-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Been thinking about it recently also for one or two projects. Has anyone tried any of the other little usb stick microcomputers? I've seen various comments on some *really* cheap ones on amazon which seem pretty competitive other than no ethernet port but a lot of heat/overheating comments. I'm tempted for the raspberry just for a dlna server with attached (but self powered) usb drive. Others could do similar various tasks though. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 25 17:37:59 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:37:59 -0800 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement Message-ID: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> We just went through another round of replacing battery clocks at the radio station and I've been going crazy trying to find one that is auto-set AND has a continous-sweep second hand. You can find a dozen Chinese manufacturers, but none in the US retail market. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 25 17:26:01 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:26:01 -0700 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: Cindy provided these details to me in private email and asked me to send to the list: "MDA, CGA, EGA, and some that go color, amber, green, and some that go amber, green, b/w via a switch. Also some with composite only (single or triple, like the Commodore color monitor), some have composite and 9-pin. Also Sony 9-pin female, take special cable 9M to 15M for SVGA. We have the cables. Also some specifically for various word processors. Also some very special, no way to test except power, takes oddball connector; these are mostly Sony." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 18:28:02 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:28:02 -0600 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <512c02bd.01c1ec0a.78d6.2f5c@mx.google.com> I thought for sure there would be something here, but alas, I see it not. http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Categories.php?sec=226 At 05:37 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote: >We just went through another round of replacing >battery clocks at the radio station >and I've been going crazy trying to find one >that is auto-set AND has a continous-sweep >second hand. You can find a dozen Chinese >manufacturers, but none in the US retail market. 680 . [Children] Few parents nowadays pay any regard to what their children say to them. The old-fashioned respect for the young is fast dying out. --Oscar Wilde a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 25 18:50:17 2013 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:50:17 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:34 PM -0600 2/25/13, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: >On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 5:26 PM, wrote: > > From: "Zane H. Healy" > > I'd want the option of putting Linux on there. Though my current >> UNIX box only has 256Mb. :-) Realistically I'll probably see about >> turning it into a PDP-11 or PDP-10 after I play with RISC OS for an > > hour or two. > >The latter projects would be fun. I've been pondering getting one to >put as small a linux distro on as possible and then getting Brad >Parker's CADR emulator http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/ running on it. >That would make for a screaming little LISP machine :) > >Getting SIMH & running 2.11BSD on it's emulated PDP-11 or VMS on the >emulated VAX could be entertaining as well. I'd likely setup RSTS/E, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, and RT-11 on E11. Then TOPS-10 on SIMH (KS-10) and TOPS-20 on KLH-10. It looks like some sort of AROS distro might be an option as well. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Feb 25 22:19:33 2013 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 20:19:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP 2116C for sale Message-ID: I am soliciting offers for a very nice condition HP 2116C with a 2748 tape reader until the end of this week. Here's a not great photo. The 2748 is on top beneath the shrinkwrap. http://vintagetech.com/photos/bigiron/HP%202116C.JPG This is in very good condition cosmetically, just a little dirty. I will get better photos after I've cleaned it up and get a hold of a key so I can open the front door. The configuration is roughly as follows: TOP SHELF: 02116-6175 - POWER FAIL 02116-63248 - MDB 02116-63212 - MAD 02116-? - "SSA" 02116-? - "XYD" 02116-63210 - INHIBIT DRIVER MIDDLE SHELF: 02116-6208 - A101 02116-6237 - A102-105 02116-6237 - A102-105 02116-6237 - A102-105 02116-6237 - A102-105 02116-6028 - A106 02116-6258 - A107 02116-6029 - A108 BOTTOM SHELF: ??? More details are in this file: http://vintagetech.com/photos/bigiron/2116C/Notes My asking price is $6,000, but I will consider any offer over $4,000 until this Friday. Please contact me directly if you have any further questions. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 00:22:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:22:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: old 9-pin monitors Message-ID: <1361859765.37338.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> There are a few Princeton, Taxan and other uncommom brands I could be interesred in. CGA, MDA, and largely EGA I am not. If you have a list w/model numbers, I'll be sure and look it over. ------------------------------ On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 9:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me >know. > > > > _____ > >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 > From tommie at fox.se Mon Feb 25 08:09:21 2013 From: tommie at fox.se (Tommie Mademark) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:09:21 +0100 Subject: Shipping cost USA >> Europe , heavy item ?? Message-ID: <40A791DCA605FE468794FC2AE63FA2041DFFE9B38B@mail.fox.se> The cheapest way to ship from the US to Europe is using ocean freight but it will take longer than air freight. Shipping one pallet of computer goods, door-to-door from Reno, Nevada, USA to Stockholm, Sweden: Number of Items: 1 Length: 48 in Width: 40 in Height: 30 in Weight: 130 lbs Packaging: Crates Commodity: Computer Class: 85 The cheapest ocean freight rate I got on the above shipment was from http://www.macrotransport.com/ but there are sites where you fill out a form and will receive quotes from several shipping agents. FROM RENO, NV 89502 TO STOCKHOLM, SW INLAND RATE: $185 OCEAN RATE: $240 HANDLING/DOCS: $65 TOTAL: $490 Tommie Mademark My Data General blog http://www.foxdata.com/blog/ From shutchman at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 12:31:34 2013 From: shutchman at gmail.com (Hutch) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:31:34 -0500 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: what types do you have? I could use a monochrome that attaches to a Sun 3/140. I t runs ECL -1.7 to -0.7V and res 1152x864 61.8Khz horiz, 66Hz vert . My dying one is 365-1051-01 Model M19P114 dated 1989. On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me > know. > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Feb 25 17:55:53 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:55:53 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> On 2/25/2013 2:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it > doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how > to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. I suspect most of the people are now upgraded from 300 baud and TTY connections to the internet. And shipping the > 500,000 units already shipped with more paper would make no sense. I was perfectly happy with what I got. I will certainly be hitting one of your software complaints, and that is that I plan to duplicate the software and source repository locally at some time soon, but have not gotten around to it. Look up how to duplicate a debian repo and there are example instructions. You won't get it done via dialup, a fairly fast connection to the internet is required. I think as far as an educational tool is concerned, it is quite a good tradeoff of features. All of your hardware concerns have been pointed out, but they are not unique to PI at all, and most people who will do any interfacing will deal with them. The loudest complaint I hear is generally that there is nowhere near enough I/O brought out, not that it is broken. thanks Jim From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Feb 25 18:06:08 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 00:06:08 +0000 (WET) Subject: Commodore 64 question Message-ID: <01OQMMQ0THXE006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a similar problem; I've noticed that the IRQ line is > constantly asserted, which it's not if I just pull the VIC > (of course, that could be because the boot routine is > crashing; the VIC otherwise looks like it's probably working > fine, since it emits a proper NTSC black screen with color > burst). > > Is there a relatively simple test that can be done with an > analog scope (no storage) that can determine whether the > PLA is bad? Some of the outputs, at least, seem to toggle. > I'd like to narrow it down before I put down the money for > a replacement part. > A friend of mine asked me to repair his failed Commodore 64 many years ago. He thoughtfully supplied a schematic for me to work from. As far as I recall (and nobody ever accused me of having a good memory), I wrote some code using the assembler on my BBC Micro, put it in an EPROM, swapped that for the ROM in the Commodore and identified a RAM problem by outputing status on the user port. I'm not sure I should admit to this but rather than an EPROM, I think it was actually my cheapo EPROM eliminator - a 2K static RAM equipped with two flying to a bench power supply... If I remember correctly, I replaced the suspect RAM chip and the machine worked. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From roe at liveblockauctions.com Mon Feb 25 18:59:48 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 18:59:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: Rt-11 distribution Message-ID: Now that Mentec is gone, does anyone know where I might find an rt-11 v5 or better distribution? I desparately need the TMSCP MU: tape device handler. From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Mon Feb 25 14:50:21 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 20:50:21 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <201302252050.r1PKoOYX050222@mx1.ezwind.net> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:06:53 +0000 From: Dave > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <512B45CD.8090903 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 25/02/2013 11:06, Dave wrote: > Carl >Poking around on the net, in particular here:- > >http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n2/212_Print_about_printers.php > >and here > >http://www.cpm.z80.de/roche/DRGDOC.TXT > >and here > >http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/convergent/manuals_b20/1180098_B20_Graphics_Programmers_Guide_R4.0_May85.pdf >(Page 135 onwards) > >implies that the interface is RS232 and that it kind of understands a >subset of HPGL.... > > Hi Dave Yes, those links were the three mentions that I had previously found (plus links to some ads in archived magazines). However, since the interface board is a S-100 bus card labeled as "Strobe 100 parallel interface" I believe the RS232 is a different option that this does not have, or the link from the plotter enclosure to the card itself is using RS232. The Burroughs document defines their graphics subroutine library and mentions that these can be used (unsupported) on the Strobe plotter, but not enough to write anything that will talk to the box. Further, they mention in appx B the configuration file that defines the format for talking to each peripheral that there is a format Strobe which is different from the HP plotter formats. The review link mentions commands, which do not sound like HPGL to me, but with only these three documents to go on, it is a grain of data and a pound of interpolation to decide what the protocol might look like. The DR Graph document mentions a unique driver for the plotter, in a long list of many different monitors, plotters and printers. All of these documents suggest to me there is a unique programmatic interface, thus I was hoping for a one in a million chance that someone has the manual or enough documented about this plotter to allow me to send it valid sequences. All mention RS232 so that may at least resolve the question of communications protocol - well documented across the three links you listed. What to send over that link is the question now. Reverse engineering may be quite challenging, but I might be able to replace the controller inside the plotter with my own controller, driving the servos and motor myself, thus free to create my own programming interface. Thank you for looking and posting the citations. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From floppydays at gmail.com Mon Feb 25 19:27:13 2013 From: floppydays at gmail.com (Floppy Days) Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 20:27:13 -0500 Subject: Floppy Days Podcast Message-ID: Hi, all retrocomputing fans! I'm starting a new podcast called Floppy Days to discuss vintage computers and calculators. I plan to cover things like: - history - specs - emulation - modern upgrades - magazines/books - assembly language tools and much, much more. I plan to cover the vintage computers and vintage programmable calculators in which I have interest, or in my collection, and would be willing to cover computers I've never seen or were not popular or available in the U.S. I would love to be able to interview experts on these systems as well, if anyone would be willing to participate. I would also like to know if anyone would be interested in being a co-host for this show. It would make it much easier to pool our knowledge and share the workload. The podcast is on iTunes, or you can download it at: floppydays.libsyn.com Thanks so much and please listen and provide feedback if you can. Randy Kindig floppydays at gmail.com voice mail 206-426-7200 Web site floppydays.libsyn.com Sent from my iPad From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 26 01:15:44 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:15:44 +0100 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: References: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219@ls-al.eu> Richard wrote: > > I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video > output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC > connectors. I'm still pursuing this, but it's taking its time. Are there any good converters for RGB? Like to VGA? re, reiche From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 26 01:25:48 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 02:25:48 -0500 Subject: old 9-pin monitors In-Reply-To: References: <008901ce137c$269a9360$73cfba20$@com> Message-ID: <6A85C211-67D7-4DDC-99C6-CF55E7C796E0@neurotica.com> I believe that would be 1152x900, FYI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Feb 25, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Hutch wrote: > what types do you have? I could use a monochrome that attaches to a Sun > 3/140. I t runs ECL -1.7 to -0.7V and res 1152x864 61.8Khz horiz, 66Hz > vert . My dying one is 365-1051-01 Model M19P114 dated 1989. > > On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 12:18 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < > sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > >> If anyone is looking for old 9-pin monitors, color or mono, please let me >> know. >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6130 - Release Date: 02/25/13 >> >> From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 26 01:30:22 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:30:22 +0100 Subject: VMS 6 docs Message-ID: <201302260730.r1Q7UMw8014832@ls-al.eu> Hi all, The orange binders are spoken for. But the large paperback books are still available. Rob Jarratt has expressed his interest for the VMS 4 documentation, but as said, that's gone. Anyone interested or can I bin it? http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/log/index.html?id=2013020601 re, reiche From wilson at dbit.com Tue Feb 26 02:01:33 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 03:01:33 -0500 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> Thanks for the suggestions! I hadn't thought about static ... or using just plain real fabric ... hmm ... John Wilson D Bit From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 02:46:19 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:46:19 +0000 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <512C765B.9090400@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 23:37, Al Kossow wrote: > We just went through another round of replacing battery clocks at the > radio station > and I've been going crazy trying to find one that is auto-set AND has > a continous-sweep > second hand. You can find a dozen Chinese manufacturers, but none in > the US retail market. > I assume you mean with with a rue analogue style continuous sweep, not the one second steps.. ... if so I would guess the Chinese ones don't actually do that, as its rather tricky. They might say they do but you should see the issues I had with language and the color of a battery for my Netbook... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum P.S. Mind my spell checked doen't like color, it wants colour.... From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 02:56:36 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:56:36 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <512C78C4.7050307@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 23:55, jim s wrote: > > On 2/25/2013 2:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it >> doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how >> to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. > I suspect most of the people are now upgraded from 300 baud and TTY > connections to the internet. And shipping the > 500,000 units already > shipped with more paper would make no sense. I was perfectly happy > with what I got. > > I will certainly be hitting one of your software complaints, and that > is that I plan to duplicate the software and source repository locally > at some time soon, but have not gotten around to it. Look up how to > duplicate a debian repo and there are example instructions. You won't > get it done via dialup, a fairly fast connection to the internet is > required. > > I think as far as an educational tool is concerned, it is quite a good > tradeoff of features. All of your hardware concerns have been pointed > out, but they are not unique to PI at all, and most people who will do > any interfacing will deal with them. The loudest complaint I hear is > generally that there is nowhere near enough I/O brought out, not that > it is broken. > The Rev2.0 board has an additional header BUT a different pin out on the original GPIO header. > thanks > Jim -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 26 03:04:25 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:04:25 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 26, at 12:01 AM, John Wilson wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions! I hadn't thought about static ... > or using just plain real fabric ... hmm ... One desktop machine I received came with a homemade dust cover .. made from denim. HP calculators and desktop computers from the 70's came with fabric dust covers, the material feels like a light cotton canvas. As Chuck mentioned you can throw them in the wash, rather than having to dust off the dust covers. Fabric also folds up much more nicely than plastic, to get them out of the way when removed. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 03:10:20 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:10:20 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? In-Reply-To: <201302252050.r1PKoOYX050222@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302252050.r1PKoOYX050222@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <512C7BFC.40802@gmail.com> On 25/02/2013 20:50, Claunch,Carl wrote: > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:06:53 +0000 > > From: Dave > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > Subject: Re: Strobe plotter documentation or information? > > Message-ID: <512B45CD.8090903 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 25/02/2013 11:06, Dave wrote: > >> Carl >> Poking around on the net, in particular here:- >> http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n2/212_Print_about_printers.php >> and here >> http://www.cpm.z80.de/roche/DRGDOC.TXT >> and here >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/convergent/manuals_b20/1180098_B20_Graphics_Programmers_Guide_R4.0_May85.pdf >> (Page 135 onwards) >> implies that the interface is RS232 and that it kind of understands a >> subset of HPGL.... > > Hi Dave > > Yes, those links were the three mentions that I had previously found (plus links to some ads in archived magazines). > > However, since the interface board is a S-100 bus card labeled as "Strobe 100 parallel interface" I believe the RS232 is a different option that this does not have, or the link from the plotter enclosure to the card itself is using RS232. Can you post some photos of the board so we can have a look. Preferably good enough for us to read the chip numbers. What is the cable from the card to the plotter like? > The Burroughs document defines their graphics subroutine library and mentions that these can be used (unsupported) on the Strobe plotter, but not enough to write anything that will talk to the box. Further, they mention in appx B the configuration file that defines the format for talking to each peripheral that there is a format Strobe which is different from the HP plotter formats. The review link mentions commands, which do not sound like HPGL to me, but with only these three documents to go on, it is a grain of data and a pound of interpolation to decide what the protocol might look like. > > The DR Graph document mentions a unique driver for the plotter, in a long list of many different monitors, plotters and printers. All of these documents suggest to me there is a unique programmatic interface, thus I was hoping for a one in a million chance that someone has the manual or enough documented about this plotter to allow me to send it valid sequences. All mention RS232 so that may at least resolve the question of communications protocol - well documented across the three links you listed. What to send over that link is the question now. Reverse engineering may be quite challenging, but I might be able to replace the controller inside the plotter with my own controller, driving the servos and motor myself, thus free to create my own programming interface. > > Thank you for looking and posting the citations. > > Carl > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 03:11:43 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 09:11:43 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? In-Reply-To: <201302252050.r1PKoOYX050222@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302252050.r1PKoOYX050222@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <512C7C4F.2070205@gmail.com> I found another for sale here, but I can't really afford to buy it and ship to the UP.... http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Strobe-Graphics-System-Plotter-for-Apple-II-IIe-IIc-IIGS-C/17434649 On 25/02/2013 20:50, Claunch,Carl wrote: > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 11:06:53 +0000 > > From: Dave > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > Subject: Re: Strobe plotter documentation or information? > > Message-ID: <512B45CD.8090903 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > > On 25/02/2013 11:06, Dave wrote: > >> Carl >> Poking around on the net, in particular here:- >> http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n2/212_Print_about_printers.php >> and here >> http://www.cpm.z80.de/roche/DRGDOC.TXT >> and here >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/convergent/manuals_b20/1180098_B20_Graphics_Programmers_Guide_R4.0_May85.pdf >> (Page 135 onwards) >> implies that the interface is RS232 and that it kind of understands a >> subset of HPGL.... > > Hi Dave > > Yes, those links were the three mentions that I had previously found (plus links to some ads in archived magazines). > > However, since the interface board is a S-100 bus card labeled as "Strobe 100 parallel interface" I believe the RS232 is a different option that this does not have, or the link from the plotter enclosure to the card itself is using RS232. > > The Burroughs document defines their graphics subroutine library and mentions that these can be used (unsupported) on the Strobe plotter, but not enough to write anything that will talk to the box. Further, they mention in appx B the configuration file that defines the format for talking to each peripheral that there is a format Strobe which is different from the HP plotter formats. The review link mentions commands, which do not sound like HPGL to me, but with only these three documents to go on, it is a grain of data and a pound of interpolation to decide what the protocol might look like. > > The DR Graph document mentions a unique driver for the plotter, in a long list of many different monitors, plotters and printers. All of these documents suggest to me there is a unique programmatic interface, thus I was hoping for a one in a million chance that someone has the manual or enough documented about this plotter to allow me to send it valid sequences. All mention RS232 so that may at least resolve the question of communications protocol - well documented across the three links you listed. What to send over that link is the question now. Reverse engineering may be quite challenging, but I might be able to replace the controller inside the plotter with my own controller, driving the servos and motor myself, thus free to create my own programming interface. > > Thank you for looking and posting the citations. > > Carl > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From n8uhn at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 03:18:04 2013 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:18:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR Message-ID: <1361870284.70831.YahooMailClassic@web122201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> RE:PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR Thankx all for the info and help with my HHC questions. i did win the ge programmer with working HHC on ebay for around 50 dollars. so now i have an hhc with working display and some GE spares. Tony my answers to your post is below: >Waht exactly is the fault with the existing one? Missing columns? Missing >rows (over part of the display?) Odd dots missing? Missing row's on the last third of the display almost to the end of te display. >The only HHC peripheral I ahve seen is the printer/cassette interface and >tht contains a ROM and a custom I/O chip. I would be very suprisied if >the display interface was all standard ICs. there were a few hhc peripheral's besides the tv adaptor and printer. according to my manual that came with the hhc used in the ge programmer there was: the I/O adaptor for six peripheral's, two printer's with cassette i/o on them , an acoustic coupler modem and a ram module. Ge used two modules with the hhc/printer/io adaptor setup: one module held eproms for software that programed the ge two way radios and the other module interfaced the radio's to the hcc via cable or ZIF sockets for bare eeproms. google "ge suitcase programmer" for info on the GE/HHC setup. there was one other HHC set up that used only an HHC and printer for insurance companies - the printer attached directly to the HHC and the custom insurance software was on a "capsule" (rom chip) that went in the back of the HHC. Bill From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Feb 26 03:56:06 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:56:06 +0100 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201302260956.r1Q9u6kQ030911@ls-al.eu> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > One desktop machine I received came with a homemade dust cover .. > made from denim. > > HP calculators and desktop computers from the 70's came with fabric > dust covers, the material feels like a light cotton canvas. > > As Chuck mentioned you can throw them in the wash, rather than having > to dust off the dust covers. Fabric also folds up much more nicely > than plastic, to get them out of the way when removed. But doesn't fabric also CREATE dust? re, reiche From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Tue Feb 26 02:27:45 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:27:45 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <201302260827.r1Q8RkW4013929@mx1.ezwind.net> The 20 wire cable that might have been an RS232 link is definitely not - among other signs, pin 3 is ground, not receive data. The S-100 interface card has no UART or intelligence, just routes the signal lines through an 8255A to the bus. Finally, opened the plotter itself - no microcontroller/processor, no logic circuits, just transistor drivers to activate the stepper motors and solenoids, wired to the various lines of the cable. So, yes, it is a parallel interface and it appears to be completely proprietary to the Strobe plotter. No fancy protocol to speak to it, at least, just raise lines to drive the motors one way or the other in 3.6 degree rotary steps. The power supply in the plotter has a 7805 on it, so appears to be standard TTL 5V interface at first glance. Seems it will be more straightforward than I thought to put this into service. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From gerardcjat at free.fr Tue Feb 26 04:34:07 2013 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:34:07 +0100 Subject: Commodore Amiga Catweasel Mk2 available for sell Message-ID: <9760C72A31FD43F59DA70AFD1ABAE546@medion> in GERMANY. International shipping available ( 12 Euros / $ 15 ?? ) Not affiliated in any way with the seller. Just for information of this list members ;-) http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330878622028&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:FR:1123 Please, let me know if this kind of "information" is helpfull for the list, or NOT. and if I should continue to post such "findings" ?? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 26 07:53:49 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:53:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <072141F2-124F-4AB1-B2AA-54A9BADD11BB@gmail.com> References: <072141F2-124F-4AB1-B2AA-54A9BADD11BB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: > > http://www.alliedelec.com/lp/120626raso/ > > eBay may be a better choice if you want to get it quickly, > especially if your seller is offering a nice package deal. > MCM Electronics had stock the last time I looked (Friday). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Feb 26 02:39:42 2013 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alphaserver 1200 dual CPU to part with Message-ID: <1361867982.26088.YahooMailNeo@web133106.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hi folks, having several Alphaserver 1200's in my collection, I thought I could part with one so that it find a good new home and make somebody happy. Unit is tested and located in Germany near Cologne, local pick-up preferred. Dual CPU 533MHz, 1GB RAM, 3x 9GB and 1x4GB disks, graphics and network card, 1x CD-ROM drive. Please make offers. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------ console output: starting console on CPU 0 sizing memory ? 0??? 256 MB DIMM ? 1??? 256 MB DIMM ? 2??? 256 MB DIMM ? 3??? 256 MB DIMM starting console on CPU 1 probing IOD1 hose 1 ? bus 0 slot 1 - NCR 53C810 ? bus 0 slot 2 - QLogic ISP1020 probing IOD0 hose 0 ? bus 0 slot 1 - PCEB ??? probing EISA Bridge, bus 1 ? bus 0 slot 2 - S3 Trio64/Trio32 ? bus 0 slot 3 - DECchip 21140-AA ** keyboard error ** configuring I/O adapters... ? ncr0, hose 1, bus 0, slot 1 ? isp0, hose 1, bus 0, slot 2 ? floppy0, hose 0, bus 1, slot 0 ? tulip0, hose 0, bus 0, slot 3 System temperature is 9 degrees C AlphaServer 1200 Console V5.3-1, 27-OCT-1998 11:16:38 ? CPU 0 booting ? (boot dkb0.0.0.2.1 -flags A) block 0 of dkb0.0.0.2.1 is a valid boot block reading 32 blocks from dkb0.0.0.2.1 bootstrap code read in Building FRU table base = 200000, image_start = 0, image_bytes = 4000 initializing HWRPB at 2000 initializing page table at 1f2000 initializing machine state setting affinity to the primary CPU jumping to bootstrap code ? halted CPU 0 ? halt code = 5 HALT instruction executed PC = 20000000 boot failure P00>>>sho config ?????????????????????????? Digital Equipment Corporation ???????????????????????????????? AlphaServer 1200 ? ?Console V5.3-1? OpenVMS PALcode V1.19-18, Digital UNIX PALcode V1.21-26 ? ?Module????????????????????????? Type???? Rev??? Name ?System Motherboard????????????? 0??????? 0000?? mthrbrd0 ?Memory? 256 MB DIMM???????????? 0??????? 0000?? mem0 ?Memory? 256 MB DIMM???????????? 0??????? 0000?? mem1 ?Memory? 256 MB DIMM???????????? 0????? ??0000?? mem2 ?Memory? 256 MB DIMM???????????? 0??????? 0000?? mem3 ?CPU (4MB Cache)???????????????? 3??????? 0001?? cpu0 ?CPU (4MB Cache)???????????????? 3??????? 0003?? cpu1 ?Bridge (IOD0/IOD1)????????????? 600????? 0032?? iod0/iod1 ?PCI Motherboard???? ????????????a??????? 0003?? saddle0 ? ?Bus 0? iod0 (PCI0) ?Slot?? Option Name????????????? Type???? Rev??? Name ?1????? PCEB???????????????????? 4828086? 0015?? pceb0 ?2????? S3 Trio64/Trio32???????? 88115333 0044?? vga0 ?3????? DECchip 21140-AA???????? 91011??? 0012?? tulip0 ? ?Bus 1? pceb0 (EISA Bridge connected to iod0, slot 1) ?Slot?? Option Name????????????? Type???? Rev??? Name ? ?Bus 0? iod1 (PCI1) ?Slot?? Option Name????????????? Type???? Rev??? Name ?1????? NCR 53C810?????????????? 11000??? 0002?? ncr0 ?2????? QLogic ISP1020?????????? 10201077 0005?? isp0 P00>>>sho power ? ??????????????????? Status Power Supply 0?????? good Power Supply 1?????? good System Fans????????? good CPU Fans???????????? good Temperature????????? good ? Current ambient temperature is 10 degrees C System shutdown temperature is set to 55 degrees C ? The system was last reset via a power-on reset ? 3 Environmental events are logged in nvram Do you want to view the events? (Y/) y ? Total Environmental Events: 3? (3 logged) ? 1? FEB 17 12:52? Temperature, Fans, Power Supplies Normal 2? FEB 25 18:36? Temperature, Fans, Power Supplies Normal 3? FEB 25 19:15? Temperature, Fans, Power Supplies Normal ? Do you want to clear all events from nvram? (Y/) y P00>>> P00>>>sho dev polling ncr0 (NCR 53C810) slot 1, bus 0 PCI, hose 1 ?? SCSI Bus ID 7 dka500.5.0.1.1???? DKA500?????????????????? RRD46? 0557 polling isp0 (QLogic ISP1020) slot 2, bus 0 PCI, hose 1?? SCSI Bus ID 7 dkb0.0.0.2.1?????? DKB0???????????????????? RZ1CB-CA? LYJ0 dkb100.1.0.2.1???? DKB100?????????????????? RZ1DF-CB? 0372 dkb200.2.0.2.1???? DKB200?????????????????? RZ2DA-LA? N1H1 dkb300.3.0.2.1???? DKB300?????????????????? RZ1DF-CB? 0372 polling floppy0 (FLOPPY) PCEB - XBUS hose 0 dva0.0.0.1000.0??? DVA0????????????????????? RX23 polling tulip0 (DECchip 21140-AA) slot 3, bus 0 PCI, hose 0 ewa0.0.0.3.0?????? 00-00-F8-31-4E-4D??? Twisted-Pair P00>>> ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 08:36:21 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:36:21 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512CC865.9040508@gmail.com> On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, > adn the docuemtnion. I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and what I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put into a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works etc. cheers Jules From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 26 08:37:18 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:37:18 -0600 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219@ls-al.eu> References: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <005001ce142e$c78d4b20$56a7e160$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sander Reiche Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 1:16 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tek 4317 Richard wrote: > > I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video > output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC > connectors. I'm still pursuing this, but it's taking its time. Are there any good converters for RGB? Like to VGA? Do you have the standard 3BNC or 5BNC to VGA cables? ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Feb 26 09:12:09 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:12:09 -0700 Subject: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment Message-ID: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> Don't know if anyone is interested, but I have a complete boxed set of HPUX 11i Ver. 1 Enterprise Operating Environment complete with Gold Pack updates, and Bonus Pack Software. Covers most all of the PA-RISC machines capable of supporting HPUX 11i (9000 series servers, workstations, etc.) I had bought it several years ago for a J6750 workstation that I eventually changed over to Linux. You can see the details here... http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/15-computer-related/7-hp-unix-enterprise-operating-e -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From xmechanic at landcomp.net Tue Feb 26 09:37:13 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:37:13 -0700 Subject: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment In-Reply-To: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> References: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <512CD6A9.6060607@landcomp.net> On 2/26/13 8:12 AM, Dave Land wrote: > Don't know if anyone is interested, but I have a complete boxed set of > HPUX 11i Ver. 1 Enterprise Operating Environment complete with Gold Pack > updates, and Bonus Pack Software. Covers most all of the PA-RISC > machines capable of supporting HPUX 11i (9000 series servers, > workstations, etc.) I had bought it several years ago for a J6750 > workstation that I eventually changed over to Linux. You can see the > details here... > > http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/15-computer-related/7-hp-unix-enterprise-operating-e > > I probably should have mentioned that it's for sale. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 26 09:55:12 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 07:55:12 -0800 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512C765B.9090400@gmail.com> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> <512C765B.9090400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512CDAE0.7070205@bitsavers.org> On 2/26/13 12:46 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > I assume you mean with with a rue analogue style continuous sweep, not the one second steps.. > ... if so I would guess the Chinese ones don't actually do that, as its rather tricky. http://www.eckind.com/product_1709013_radio-controlled-clock-movement.htm https://www.primexusa.com who also sells a step per second version. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 26 10:32:45 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:32:45 -0800 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512CDAE0.7070205@bitsavers.org> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> <512C765B.9090400@gmail.com> <512CDAE0.7070205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <512CE3AD.5030609@bitsavers.org> On 2/26/13 7:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/26/13 12:46 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> I assume you mean with with a rue analogue style continuous sweep, not the one second steps.. >> ... if so I would guess the Chinese ones don't actually do that, as its rather tricky. > > > > http://www.eckind.com/product_1709013_radio-controlled-clock-movement.htm > > https://www.primexusa.com > > who also sells a step per second version. > Quartex and Primex are Wisconsin companies. Here is the patent done by someone in Lake Geneva (don't recognize the name, though) http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1137971.pdf From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 10:48:05 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:48:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: old 9-pin monitors Message-ID: <1361897285.24112.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 2:19 PM PST Richard wrote: >EGA and CGA have compatible signalling, but MDA is very different >(TTL vs. analog signalling). None of those monitors are analog. Internally EGA monitors mix it up differently, but all the above monitors take digital inputs. The EGA just has more. A analog monitor is RGB, CGA is RGBI, EGA is RGBI + 2. >Presumably the color ones she mentions are either CGA or EGA and the >mono ones are MDA.> There were others... From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 26 10:49:32 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:49:32 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <512CE79C.6030809@sydex.com> On 02/26/2013 01:04 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > As Chuck mentioned you can throw them in the wash, rather than having to > dust off the dust covers. Fabric also folds up much more nicely than > plastic, to get them out of the way when removed. Throw some fabric softener (e.g. "Downy" or "Cling-Free" ) into the wash and the cover should definitely have some anti-static properties. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 10:58:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:58:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1084s Message-ID: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Compatible with IBM CGA modes? Same pinout? As to a related topic, the C128 outputs RGBI like a CGA card? From jim at photojim.ca Tue Feb 26 11:09:20 2013 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:09:20 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084s In-Reply-To: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:59 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Commodore 1084s > > > Compatible with IBM CGA modes? Same pinout? > > As to a related topic, the C128 outputs RGBI like a CGA card? From jim at photojim.ca Tue Feb 26 11:12:30 2013 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:12:30 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084s In-Reply-To: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:59 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Commodore 1084s > > > Compatible with IBM CGA modes? Same pinout? > > As to a related topic, the C128 outputs RGBI like a CGA card? The 1084/1084s will do RGBA (for the Amiga) and RGBI (CGA/C128 80-column mode) as long as you have the appropriate cable. The monitor came with both RGBA and RGBI cables when sold (and I think it came with an 8-pin DIN cable for the C64/128 40-column mode also, which it also supports). There are switches to flick/buttons to press to select RGBA/RGBI mode and to switch between RGBx and standard composite/chroma-luma mode. Jim From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 11:25:56 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:25:56 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084s In-Reply-To: References: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, the 1084S is CGA compatible. Depending on the model/generation you have, you'd either have a DE-9 connector in which case it is wired straight through, or you'll have a round DIN connector. There are pinouts available online. You have to flip a switch from Analog->Digital RGB to make it work too. On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu > > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:59 AM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Commodore 1084s > > > > > > Compatible with IBM CGA modes? Same pinout? > > > > As to a related topic, the C128 outputs RGBI like a CGA card? > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 11:26:24 2013 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:26:24 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084s In-Reply-To: References: <1361897919.48511.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh, and yes, the C-128 80 column output is CGA compatible as well. On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > Yes, the 1084S is CGA compatible. Depending on the model/generation you > have, you'd either have a DE-9 connector in which case it is wired straight > through, or you'll have a round DIN connector. There are pinouts available > online. You have to flip a switch from Analog->Digital RGB to make it work > too. > > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> > On Behalf Of Chris Tofu >> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 10:59 AM >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > Subject: Commodore 1084s >> > >> > >> > Compatible with IBM CGA modes? Same pinout? >> > >> > As to a related topic, the C128 outputs RGBI like a CGA card? >> >> > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 11:36:14 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:36:14 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <723344795-1361900174-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1573292642-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> That's where ya pick the right project for you (nv8em not a raspberry) :-) ------Original Message------ From: Jules Richardson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi Sent: Feb 26, 2013 8:36 AM On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, > adn the docuemtnion. I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and what I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put into a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works etc. cheers Jules From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 11:56:16 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:56:16 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Anyone know if mcm electronics changes the shipping charge before you pay or are they all flat rate/minimum of 9.49 to ship? Between them charging extra for shipping and adafruit charging extra for the device but admitting shipping is only $4 it sorta comes out the same. I just don't know who I'd offer the mark up (if I have to pay one) to. From jon at jonworld.com Tue Feb 26 12:05:59 2013 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 10:05:59 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <06E9C0A5-8562-42E1-9B4A-76DFB2CD6614@jonworld.com> On Feb 26, 2013, at 9:56 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Anyone know if mcm electronics changes the shipping charge before you pay or are they all flat rate/minimum of 9.49 to ship? Between them charging extra for shipping and adafruit charging I'd be partial to giving my extra shekels to Adafruit. They do good stuff(?) From sales at elecplus.com Tue Feb 26 12:08:30 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:08:30 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <00fe01ce144c$48ac1430$da043c90$@com> Try Mouser Electronics, we have gotten small things shipped for $2. www.mouser.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sam O'nella Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 11:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi Anyone know if mcm electronics changes the shipping charge before you pay or are they all flat rate/minimum of 9.49 to ship? Between them charging extra for shipping and adafruit charging extra for the device but admitting shipping is only $4 it sorta comes out the same. I just don't know who I'd offer the mark up (if I have to pay one) to. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6132 - Release Date: 02/25/13 From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 26 12:31:58 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:31:58 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface Message-ID: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Hi folks, I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both :-) It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore mass storage media. To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and tapes to dump: Please don't flame. Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/omnibus_usb My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough interest to do it. If you have any suggestions, let me know! Kind regards, Philipp :-) -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 12:34:14 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:34:14 -0600 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: how much????????? On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. > I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a > KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both :-) > > It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used > as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore > mass storage media. > To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and > tapes to dump: Please don't flame. > > Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: > http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/**omnibus_usb > > My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and > do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those > boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I > ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and > how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it > and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! > > I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough > interest to do it. > > If you have any suggestions, let me know! > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp :-) > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > hachti at hachti.de > www.tiegeldruck.de > > UStdID DE 202668329 > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 26 13:01:05 2013 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 11:01:05 -0800 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512CE3AD.5030609@bitsavers.org> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> <512C765B.9090400@gmail.com> <512CDAE0.7070205@bitsavers.org> <512CE3AD.5030609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <512D0671.5030406@bitsavers.org> On 2/26/13 8:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/26/13 7:55 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 2/26/13 12:46 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> >>> I assume you mean with with a rue analogue style continuous sweep, not the one second steps.. >>> ... if so I would guess the Chinese ones don't actually do that, as its rather tricky. >> More digging.. Continuous-sweep RC movements exist, just not for the US market. http://www.shengbang.com/asp-bin/en/?page=2&CATALOG=273 Which explains why I can find them everywhere but here. Finally found the specs for the Quartex RC movement http://www.quartexusa.com/qrc80.htm and it is step per second. Quartex's retail outlet is http://www.klockit.com/ and they don't know of one http://www.clockforum.com/continuous-sweep-and-atomic-t3881.html they also seem to be connected with La Crosse http://www.klockit.com/depts/AtomicClocks/dept-52.html From spedraja at ono.com Tue Feb 26 13:06:30 2013 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:06:30 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: I should like to buy one or more for my PDP8E. SPc. 2013/2/26 Philipp Hachtmann > Hi folks, > > I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. > I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a > KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both :-) > > It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used > as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore > mass storage media. > To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and > tapes to dump: Please don't flame. > > Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: > http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/**omnibus_usb > > My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and > do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those > boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I > ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and > how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it > and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! > > I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough > interest to do it. > > If you have any suggestions, let me know! > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp :-) > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > hachti at hachti.de > www.tiegeldruck.de > > UStdID DE 202668329 > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Feb 26 13:59:46 2013 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:59:46 -0000 Subject: VMS 6 docs In-Reply-To: <201302260730.r1Q7UMw8014832@ls-al.eu> References: <201302260730.r1Q7UMw8014832@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <047b01ce145b$d54dd3b0$7fe97b10$@ntlworld.com> Seems a shame to shred them. I am not clear how many you have and how many shelf centimetres they occupy, also any idea what they would cost to ship to the UK? NB: not necessarily promising to take them, but will do so if I can and they would otherwise be binned. My criteria are simply the shelf space needed and the cost to ship. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sander Reiche > Sent: 26 February 2013 07:30 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VMS 6 docs > > Hi all, > > The orange binders are spoken for. But the large paperback books are still > available. > > Rob Jarratt has expressed his interest for the VMS 4 documentation, but as > said, that's gone. > > Anyone interested or can I bin it? > > http://ls-al.eu/~reiche/log/index.html?id=2013020601 > > re, > > reiche From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 26 14:29:38 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:29:38 -0700 Subject: Tek 4317 In-Reply-To: <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219@ls-al.eu> References: <201302191847.r1JIlqU6014496@ls-al.eu> <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: In article <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219 at ls-al.eu>, Sander Reiche writes: > Richard wrote: > > > > I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video > > output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC > > connectors. > > I'm still pursuing this, but it's taking its time. > > Are there any good converters for RGB? Like to VGA? Based on this picture, it appears that it would have RGB BNC connectors. That implies synch-on-green video signalling. If you don't have a synch-on-green RGB monitor, then you'll need an adapter to convert that to VGA (which splits the synch signals out on a separate pin). These shouldn't be too hard to find because synch-on-green was fairly common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 26 14:36:13 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:36:13 -0700 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <512CFF9E.3080800 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. > > Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: > http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/omnibus_usb I'm guessing that row of DIP chips are line driver/receiver chips for the bus? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 26 13:37:39 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:37:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512BD541.5020903@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 25, 13 03:18:57 pm Message-ID: > Yes, that would be my thought, too. I don't particularly care about the > extra RAM, but having Ethernet is a must (for me). Actually, While only yhr Model B Rpi has on-board ethernet, I am pretty sure it's a USB to tthernet device hung off a USB port on the SoaC. I am also prtty sure you can sue a USB ethernet thingy with a mdoel A if you want to > I can't remember now; does the 'Pi have RS232 built in (poss. with the > addition of external line drivers)? To be pedantic, no. TO be practical, yes. There is an asynchronosu serial port on 2 pins of the GPIO connecotr. It's not RS232, it's 3.3V logic levels. But you can easily buffer it (MAX3232 IC) to RS232 levels. The Rpi can use that as a serial console too. By default it runs at 15200 baud (something which is very PC speciifc, nd a ridiculous choice fothe default), but you cna set it to just about any seped in one of the oconfiguration files. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 26 14:07:46 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:07:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Feb 25, 13 03:55:53 pm Message-ID: > > > On 2/25/2013 2:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it > > doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how > > to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. > I suspect most of the people are now upgraded from 300 baud and TTY Well, probably. But I am wondering jsut who the Rpi is marketed at. It's not really suitable as an ambedded controller (nowhere near enough I/O, and a dififuclt PCB to mount). It's not really suitable as a machien to laarn programming on if you don't have anything else. BEcuase you need 'something else' to use it. Like the internet connection. OK, the book does suggest it's to be used by children (teenagers) who want to learn to program and who only hacve access to their paren'ts PC which siad parents don't want messad about with. OK, but wait a second. Firstly, said parents are not going to want to lend the keyboard, mouse, etc form that PCB, so you have to buy another of each to use the Rpi. Thsi emans the cose is almost tripled. And more imporatly, if you want to downlaod the OS for the RPi usign said PC, you need rawwrite or similar. I may be missign something, but I feel a utility that can overwrite a masss storage device is a lot more dangerous than a C complier. Oh well.... Gettign back to the requirement for itnernet access, by all means make it networkable., But don't require it. Have a docuemnted way (i.e. one that does not require you to geusess at the dpckg command) to install from local storage devices. And make a complete archive of sources and bianries aviaalble on soemthign that can be read by the Rpi, possibly with an add-on device (I have no idea if the Rpi supports USB CD-ROM or DVD-ROM drives). > connections to the internet. And shipping the > 500,000 units already > shipped with more paper would make no sense. I was perfectly happy > with what I got. Hmmm.. DOcuemtnatio nsi a sore point with me. My view is that no matter how good a product, it's useless if you can't work out how to use it. For a machine aimed at beginners, you need simple (not dumbed-down and content free, but explaining things from step 1) docuemtnation. If people get lost in the first few minutes, they are not going to carry on with the thing. They'll find soemthign else ot play with. I have a similar feelign about the GPIO connecotr. Make a msitake, you've wreked the Rpi. Yes it's cheap enough to replace, I guess (even though that doens;'t fit with how I work). But people starting out make a lot of mistakes. If they blow up 3 or more Rpis is quick succession, they will give up. On the other hand, if they blow up a repalcable chip, even if it's not cheap, they will not feel the same loss. Or at least I wouldn't. > > I will certainly be hitting one of your software complaints, and that is > that I plan to duplicate the software and source repository locally at > some time soon, but have not gotten around to it. Look up how to How do you go aobut that? There is no obvious way to download it. > duplicate a debian repo and there are example instructions. You won't > get it done via dialup, a fairly fast connection to the internet is > required. Don;t worry, I ahve no intetion of downlaoding several gigabytes at 14k4 :-) > > I think as far as an educational tool is concerned, it is quite a good > tradeoff of features. All of your hardware concerns have been pointed > out, but they are not unique to PI at all, and most people who will do > any interfacing will deal with them. The loudest complaint I hear is Most machiens with user I/O ports have some buffering/proteciton on them Or at least the ones I am used to do. > generally that there is nowhere near enough I/O brought out, not that it > is broken. That is the biggest problem. I had considred using thr Rpi for the often-taleked-aboput and never-made HPIB disk unit replacement. But there simply aren't enough I/O lines to make am HPIB port. I can probalby design soemthing that hooks up to the I2C port, but it's more work than it should be. It is claimed to be the 'spiritual successor' of the BBC micro. Well, yes, that machien only had a single 8 bit user port -- along with 2 handshake lines. It also had am 8 bit output-only pritner port (which could be hijackked to select devices hung off the unser port) and a the 1MHz bus (basically the 6502 bus, only the bottom 8 address lines are there, along with a couple of page select lines). That adds up to a lot of I/O. Now I realise, of course, that bringing out the bus of the CPU in the Rpi is impractical if not impsssible. But given the mioght higher CPU speed, it would have been a GOod Thing to have enough I/O lines to simulate an 8 bit data bus, read/write control, 8 address lines, etc. Just ot be able to hang whatever peripheral chip you might want on the device . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 26 14:19:30 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:19:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PANASONIC HHC RL-H1800 TV DISPLAY ADAPTOR In-Reply-To: <1361870284.70831.YahooMailClassic@web122201.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Bill Allen Jr" at Feb 26, 13 01:18:04 am Message-ID: > there were a few hhc peripheral's besides the tv adaptor and printer. Sure. IIRC there as an RS232 interface, for example. I have never seen one. [...] > there was one other HHC set up that used only an HHC and printer for > insurance companies - the printer attached directly to the HHC and the > custom insurance software was on a "capsule" (rom chip) that went in the > back of the HHC. There weas a second 'unsurance version' This was also the HHC and printter, but fitted on top of a 3rd-party EPROM box. The EPORMs in that are not the smae as the oens that go into the HHC, they are 28 pin Jedec pinout ones, fitted the normal way up in those Molex sockets (think of the ROM expansion socekt on a TRS80 M100). Logic in that one is all standard CMOS (74HC?) The scheamtics of that are towards the end of the scheamtics you have already found. As for the display, missing rows ovr part of the length is an odd fult. My geuss is that the backplane connections at that end of the dispay are open. Probalby nothing more than poor contacts on the zebrastrip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 26 14:24:37 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:24:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512CC865.9040508@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 26, 13 08:36:21 am Message-ID: > > On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, > > adn the docuemtnion. > > I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and what > I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, > RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put into > a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works etc. :-) As I have said several times, if you want to learn how a computer really works, buy a non-working Unibus PDP11 (nto an 11/24, 11/84, 11/94, etc ,one of the TTL-baed ones), a PDP8/e or an HP9830 and learn to fix it. By the time it's working you will know just how a CPU executes instructions. If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, at least to learn programming. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 26 15:09:21 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:09:21 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D2481.3030405@sydex.com> This is way off-topic, but maybe someone has run into this problem. I have a server here running OpenBSD (x86 32-bit) and I don't want to change the OS, but I would like to add a Linksys USB-to-Ethernet adapter (2f09). Said adapter comes with the source to a Linux driver, but I've never worked at the driver level in OpenBSD. Does anyone know how difficult it would be to modify/recompile the Linux source to work in OpenBSD? Thanks, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 26 15:21:07 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:21:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130226131847.D44814@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC > and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder > if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, > at least to learn programming. 'twould make sense. A generic 5160 is a fine machine to learn certain stages of programming on. but, in wasteful cultures, like we have here, can pick up a eMachines or Packard Bell on the curb on trash day, and use it to flesh out a Raspberry Pi? From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Feb 26 15:26:06 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:26:06 +0000 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74341BE1@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Various "time-nuts" start off with GPS disciplined rubidium clocks, or radio clocks like WWVB, and derive a phase-locked 60Hz to run the old-fashioned 120VAC continuous-hand-movement analog and flip clocks (in my circle known as "NUMECHRON"s although I think the most applicable trademark was TYMETER). One example is: http://leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-nixie/ Obviously an HP 3325B is overkill as a 60Hz synthesizer but you get the idea. If you have WWVB carrier, 60Hz is just dividing by 1000, no funny numerator/denominator stuff. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Feb 26 15:31:50 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:31:50 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi MCM Shipping In-Reply-To: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1933318762-1361901375-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1703706266-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <512D29C6.5080009@jwsss.com> On 2/26/2013 9:56 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Anyone know if mcm electronics changes the shipping charge before you pay or are they all flat rate/minimum of 9.49 to ship? Between them charging extra for shipping and adafruit charging extra for the device but admitting shipping is only $4 it sorta comes out the same. I just don't know who I'd offer the mark up (if I have to pay one) to. the problem with MCM at least when I bought my Pi was that they ship a phone book sized catalog and charge you 10 or 15 bucks shipping. I didn't argue, but when i found out why the shipping was so much I was pissed. I should have put this up earlier, to tell people to tell MCM that we actually can read their catalogs and spam emails off that new fangled thing we ordered on, the Internet, please keep the catalog and put the pi in a bubble pack or small flat ($3.00) upsp priority container. Jim From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Feb 26 15:34:41 2013 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:34:41 +0000 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B74341BFE@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> I think there was also an "Accutron" clock movement that could be driven from 60kHz. I think this movement was in at least some HP timekeeping instruments. In any event those were not truly silent either... put an Accutron up to your ear and you hear a high-pitched hum/buzz, not tick-tick-tick. -----Original Message----- From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 4:26 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement Various "time-nuts" start off with GPS disciplined rubidium clocks, or radio clocks like WWVB, and derive a phase-locked 60Hz to run the old-fashioned 120VAC continuous-hand-movement analog and flip clocks (in my circle known as "NUMECHRON"s although I think the most applicable trademark was TYMETER). One example is: http://leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-nixie/ Obviously an HP 3325B is overkill as a 60Hz synthesizer but you get the idea. If you have WWVB carrier, 60Hz is just dividing by 1000, no funny numerator/denominator stuff. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 15:38:10 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:38:10 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <512D2481.3030405@sydex.com> References: <512D2481.3030405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <68A80CF9-AC5A-4F66-BEEC-C3A92A16F1F3@gmail.com> On Feb 26, 2013, at 4:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This is way off-topic, but maybe someone has run into this problem. > > I have a server here running OpenBSD (x86 32-bit) and I don't want to change the OS, but I would like to add a Linksys USB-to-Ethernet adapter (2f09). Said adapter comes with the source to a Linux driver, but I've never worked at the driver level in OpenBSD. > > Does anyone know how difficult it would be to modify/recompile the Linux source to work in OpenBSD? They're quite different, though having the driver as a guide to how to use the hardware is handy in the absence of a datasheet. Are you sure there's not already a driver? I don't see "2f09" as a Linksys product, but this would suggest that there is at least partially-working support for the 300M, which seems to be their currently-available adaptor: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/21147 Most commercial USB->[Ethernet|WiFi] adaptors use one of a small handful of common chips, and OpenBSD is generally fairly good about driver support for them. You may find that the driver you seek is already available, though you may need to update to a newer OpenBSD version to find it. tl;dr It's not an easy drop-in to run a Linux driver from source on OpenBSD. Better to find an existing one. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 15:42:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:42:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: at least one of the best ways to learn computing was Re: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361914940.87242.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This follows Tony's reply. I have little knowledge of DEC stuff and no knowledge of Beebs. I was sort of surprised that a PDP-8e's boot sequence is very similar to a peecee's, but this is fundamental to computers really, and this I had to learn. Apples and IBMs are somewhat plentiful. The Commie 64 has a bit too much custom logic, even a Mac has less in reality. Not a huge Apple II fan, but it seems to have little or none. A 5150 mainboard has zero custom logic, not even a pal unless I'm mistaken (and there's validity in the argument that a smidgeon of custom logic enhances learning - in that it would be a comprehensive example). There are undoubtedly many examples that would nicely fit the bill (and if you wanted to FORCE yourself to learn and delve into assembler and whatnot, get a Tandy 2000! It don't run squat, besides a handful of items that were modified for it, bizarro scientific and accounting packages. Zork. Hooray. Conspicuous by it's absence on the list is Starflight! Why - why WHY!!!). I haven't looked at the pi much, besides reading an article some time ago somewhere. At first glance I can't see how it can help a person learn hardware. No clue on that one. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 15:45:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:45:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361915130.61653.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 1:21 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 26 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC >> and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder >> if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, >> at least to learn programming. > >'twould make sense. >A generic 5160 is a fine machine to learn certain stages of programming >on. > > >but, in wasteful cultures, like we have here, can pick up a eMachines or >Packard Bell on the curb on trash day, and use it to flesh out a Raspberry >Pi? You know there might be a burgeoning demand for old eMachins and PBells soon. Or perhaps some should design a sbc that could take their place. From doc at vaxen.net Tue Feb 26 16:01:22 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:01:22 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D30B2.5080800@vaxen.net> On 2/26/13 2:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, >>> adn the docuemtnion. >> >> I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and what >> I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, >> RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put into >> a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works etc. > > > :-) > > > As I have said several times, if you want to learn how a computer really > works, buy a non-working Unibus PDP11 (nto an 11/24, 11/84, 11/94, etc > ,one of the TTL-baed ones), a PDP8/e or an HP9830 and learn to fix it. By > the time it's working you will know just how a CPU executes instructions. > > If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've > yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC > and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder > if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, > at least to learn programming. I think that for the vast majority of modern households, any of your 3 alternatives would be much more expensive, not to mention disruptive, than simply dressing out a Raspberry Pi system. Most households run Windows. Yes, there exist free compilers for Windows but not a lot of parents understand or are willing to risk that sort of activity on their primary business/communication center. And rightly so. So just throwing a free compiler on a PC will likely require the purchase of said PC. Did you price any BBC Micros lately? Or PDP11 systems, for that matter? How about shipping costs? Not to mention the fact that the common household would need to purchase some kind of serial terminal, or at the least a good USB-serial adapter for use with a PC-based terminal emulator. Bear in mind also that in most countries, cubic footage is a very limited resource... Finally, most households already own as spares all or most of the peripherals required by the Rpi. If not, "old" USB keyboards and mice are very nearly free for the taking. My take on the Raspberry Pi is that it offers EXACTLY what it claims to offer. A cheap, accessible ENTRY POINT into programming and/or hardware hacking. Incidentally, it can also serve nicely as a lower-end general-purpose modern** computer. **where by "modern" I mean there's no need nor desire for FDC, RS232, VGA, stepped instructions, etc. Doc From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 16:09:36 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:09:36 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D32A0.9050203@gmail.com> On 26/02/2013 20:24, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, >>> adn the docuemtnion. >> I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and what >> I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, >> RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put into >> a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works etc. > > :-) > > > As I have said several times, if you want to learn how a computer really > works, buy a non-working Unibus PDP11 (nto an 11/24, 11/84, 11/94, etc > ,one of the TTL-baed ones), a PDP8/e or an HP9830 and learn to fix it. By > the time it's working you will know just how a CPU executes instructions. > > If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've > yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC > and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder > if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, > at least to learn programming. > > -tony Its aimed at teaching "computer science" rather than "programming". You only need "one" PC per school of PI's to create the SD card installations. This comes with some development tools installed. Each child can have their own SD card and so you don't need any network to develop. You can program on the PI rather than having to use a PC as with other many embedded solutions. Its cheap enough and low power enough so that you can stick it in in a project and not worry about the cost. Take a look the web site:- http://www.raspberrypi.org/ and see what folks are doing..... Dave G4UGM P.S. mine is still sat in front of the TV as a media server. However I think I will get another to use as small file server. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 26 17:34:38 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:34:38 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: > how much????????? Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. But it should still become cheaper.... > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmannwrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. >> I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a >> KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both :-) >> >> It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used >> as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore >> mass storage media. >> To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and >> tapes to dump: Please don't flame. >> >> Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: >> http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/**omnibus_usb >> >> My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and >> do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those >> boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I >> ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and >> how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it >> and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! >> >> I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough >> interest to do it. >> >> If you have any suggestions, let me know! >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Philipp :-) >> >> -- >> >> >> Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann >> Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten >> >> Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover >> Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 >> Fax. 0511/3500439 >> hachti at hachti.de >> www.tiegeldruck.de >> >> UStdID DE 202668329 >> From hachti at hachti.de Tue Feb 26 17:35:07 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:35:07 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512D46AB.3020608@hachti.de> Am 26.02.2013 21:36, schrieb Richard: > I'm guessing that row of DIP chips are line driver/receiver chips for > the bus? What else? :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 16:44:24 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:44:24 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> On 02/26/2013 02:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've > yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. Yes, they are pretty flexible (and reasonably hard to kill!). The 380Z wasn't bad either, although not quite in the same league. I'm not sure what a good equivalent this side of the Pond would be - maybe an Apple II as long as it came with a few useful cards? > But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC > and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder > if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, > at least to learn programming. Absolutely. I suspect for many people it appeals because it's a cheap computer, and they don't really have a particular use in mind for it (so it doesn't matter that it's rather middle-ground for so many situations). cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 16:50:07 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:50:07 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 February 2013 00:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It looks like some sort of AROS distro might be an option as well. Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. Yes, the AROS team are working on an ARM version, but AFAIK, at the moment, it can only run loaded as an application running under ARM Linux with X.11 or possibly under QEMU. It cannot yet actually boot on ARM hardware. Given that the Rpi struggles a bit with graphical Linux anyway, it's not really an alternative at the moment. But if or when they ever do produce a native-booting version, that will indeed be an option. AROS is small, slim and fast compared to modern x86 OSs - although it's relatively feature-poor, and like the AmigaOS 3 that it seeks to replicate, it has no VM, no memory protection, no user security or anything. It does have a TCP/IP stack and Web clients, though.] At the moment, TTBOMK, there are 4 OSs that run on Rpi: * Linux, obviously, as used on 99% of Pis * RISC OS - a feature-complete port, but so far lacking graphics acceleration etc. * Preliminary just-about-booting ports of NetBSD and FreeBSD There'a a boot manager but I am not sure it can handle anything except Linux: http://www.berryterminal.com/doku.php/berryboot -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 16:53:12 2013 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:53:12 -0600 Subject: at least one of the best ways to learn computing was Re: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1361914940.87242.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361914940.87242.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512D3CD8.1020100@gmail.com> On 02/26/2013 03:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Apples and IBMs are somewhat plentiful. Hmm, I'd love to find an Apple II or an IBM 5150 (or '60, but I'm not too bothered about having a hard disk). I don't think there are any even remotely nearby though, which means shipping (and worse still, the possibility of ebay prices) From jws at jwsss.com Tue Feb 26 16:59:23 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:59:23 -0800 Subject: at least one of the best ways to learn computing was Re: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1361914940.87242.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361914940.87242.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512D3E4B.5010501@jwsss.com> On 2/26/2013 1:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I haven't looked at the pi much, besides reading an article some time ago somewhere. At first glance I can't see how it can help a person learn hardware. No clue on that one. The way that it helps with education and learning is that instead of telling someone to go buy and dedicate a laptop or other machine to a lab purpose, and download say a DVD to load it one can tell them to obtain a Pi and an SD card image to boot it on. There are several examples of lab setups where this is already done both by attaching adapters to outside things (relay boards, etc.) and another which attaches to a breadboard. The pi is not going to be the focus of the vast majority of these things, but will be the computer vehicle that delivers the educational setup. It can be the center of a lesson say to learn to program things that require only what it has to interact with, keyboard, mouse an display, plus for the model b adding in a network. Instead of picking up $25 random ecycled machine this is intended to replace that role. Also if the need arises in the right setting it can be the focus of the lesson. One suggested in these threads, "what not to plug into the gpio pins". Screwing up that lesson costs you another Pi. I suspect there will be people who will jump in and plug thing in randomly, but they won't get far. I suspect most people will figure out what to do with what is there. Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Feb 26 17:03:02 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:03:02 -0800 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> I should point out that (at least from looking at a couple of the photos) you're not using Unibus transceivers which are standard on Omnibus devices. It'll probably work OK on a lightly loaded system but a PDP-8/e with a double backplane with lots of boards may have issues. TTFN - Guy On Feb 26, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: >> how much????????? > Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. > But it should still become cheaper.... > > > >> >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmannwrote: >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. >>> I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a >>> KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both :-) >>> >>> It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used >>> as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore >>> mass storage media. >>> To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and >>> tapes to dump: Please don't flame. >>> >>> Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: >>> http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/**omnibus_usb >>> >>> My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and >>> do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those >>> boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I >>> ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and >>> how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it >>> and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! >>> >>> I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough >>> interest to do it. >>> >>> If you have any suggestions, let me know! >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Philipp :-) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann >>> Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten >>> >>> Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover >>> Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 >>> Fax. 0511/3500439 >>> hachti at hachti.de >>> www.tiegeldruck.de >>> >>> UStdID DE 202668329 >>> > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 26 17:03:42 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:03:42 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <68A80CF9-AC5A-4F66-BEEC-C3A92A16F1F3@gmail.com> References: <512D2481.3030405@sydex.com> <68A80CF9-AC5A-4F66-BEEC-C3A92A16F1F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512D3F4E.5050105@sydex.com> On 02/26/2013 01:38 PM, David Riley wrote: > They're quite different, though having the driver as a guide to how > to use the hardware is handy in the absence of a datasheet. Are > you sure there's not already a driver? I don't see "2f09" as a > Linksys product, but this would suggest that there is at least > partially-working support for the 300M, which seems to be their > currently-available adaptor: > > http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/21147 > > Most commercial USB->[Ethernet|WiFi] adaptors use one of a small > handful of common chips, and OpenBSD is generally fairly good about > driver support for them. You may find that the driver you seek is > already available, though you may need to update to a newer OpenBSD > version to find it. > > tl;dr It's not an easy drop-in to run a Linux driver from source on > OpenBSD. Better to find an existing one. Here's what lsusb gives me (extraneous endpoint information elided): Bus 002 Device 004: ID 066b:20f9 Linksys, Inc. Device Descriptor: bLength 18 bDescriptorType 1 bcdUSB 2.00 bDeviceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class bDeviceSubClass 255 Vendor Specific Subclass bDeviceProtocol 0 bMaxPacketSize0 64 idVendor 0x066b Linksys, Inc. idProduct 0x20f9 bcdDevice 0.01 iManufacturer 1 iProduct 2 iSerial 3 I can find nothing on the web about this thing other than a couple of mentions about not being able to find drivers. If necessary, I can crack the thing open and see what's on the PCB. --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Feb 26 17:12:54 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:12:54 -0600 Subject: RGB -> VGA adaptors (was: Re: Tek 4317) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Some searching on the Color Computer site leads to this: http://miba51.com/CoCo_VGA_Adpater.html Roy Justus' converter from 15.7 kHz RGB as generated by a CoCo3 to 31 kHz VGA. At one point, another was available from Chris Hawks http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.tandy.coco/63638 I have no experience with either, nor any connection except being a fellow CoCo user. Hope this helps. At 16:39 -0600 2/26/13, wrote: >Message: 12 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:29:38 -0700 >From: Richard >To: cctalk >Subject: Re: Tek 4317 >Message-ID: > > >In article <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219 at ls-al.eu>, > Sander Reiche writes: > >> Richard wrote: >> > >> > I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video >> > output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC >> > connectors. >> >> I'm still pursuing this, but it's taking its time. >> > > Are there any good converters for RGB? Like to VGA? > >Based on this picture, it appears that it would have RGB BNC connectors. > > >That implies synch-on-green video signalling. If you don't have a >synch-on-green RGB monitor, then you'll need an adapter to convert >that to VGA (which splits the synch signals out on a separate pin). >These shouldn't be too hard to find because synch-on-green was fairly >common. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 17:04:31 2013 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:04:31 -0600 Subject: OT: WWVB clock with silent movement In-Reply-To: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> References: <512BF5D7.80405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <512d417e.6e7aec0a.0ff1.6371@mx.google.com> From: To: "Tom" Subject: clock http://www.amazon.com/La-Crosse-Technology-WT-3102B-automatic/dp/B00077AA4W Is this what u are looking for? At 05:37 PM 2/25/2013, you wrote: >We just went through another round of replacing >battery clocks at the radio station >and I've been going crazy trying to find one >that is auto-set AND has a continous-sweep >second hand. You can find a dozen Chinese >manufacturers, but none in the US retail market. 322 . [Commentary] "in a dying culture, snobs are an important natural resource" a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 17:15:24 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:15:24 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. EUR > 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. > But it should still become cheaper.... I know this can be a touchy subject with folks that just want to make one thing and not have an explosion of similar but different purchase options, but I usually ask if it's possible to get just a bare board. I can't afford to spend EUR 250 on anything PDP-8 related right now, but if I could get a bare board for a fraction of that and solder my own, I'd seriously consider it. It's likely that there is not enough interest in a board-only option to make it a viable option (especially if you are planning on having the run assembled somewhere), but I thought I would ask. -ethan From earl at retrobits.com Tue Feb 26 16:47:40 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:47:40 -0800 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 Message-ID: Also posted this question in the Vintage Computer Forums. OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an emulated PDP-11 running RT11. When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen when, say, doing a DIR command. The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the good text. I have tried this with SIMH under Linux, connecting the VT100 to the serial console port of the Linux machine. I've also tried it under E11, using that program's built-in serial terminal capacity. Same exact error in both cases. I've looked at the RT11 SET command for TT: to see if there are any applicable parameters. Can't find any. I've set the SIMH TTO device to all its possible settings: 7B, 7P, 8B, and UC. Same stuff in all cases. I've looked at the serial settings on the VT100 to ensure 8 bits, no parity, and correct baud rate. All good. The VT100 works fine with the Linux box doing Linux-ey things. No character corruption when doing a big "ls" listing, OK with vi, etc. The SIMH and E11 emulators work fine in their virtual consoles, with no character corruption when doing a DIR, etc. Any ideas? I'd really like to, for instance, get my Raspberry Pi to be a mini PDP-11 system, but I can't get past this character garbage when using the real VT100. Help appreciated! And thanks for reading! - Earl From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 26 17:19:40 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:19:40 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <68A80CF9-AC5A-4F66-BEEC-C3A92A16F1F3@gmail.com> References: <512D2481.3030405@sydex.com> <68A80CF9-AC5A-4F66-BEEC-C3A92A16F1F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512D430C.1000202@sydex.com> On 02/26/2013 01:38 PM, David Riley wrote: > > tl;dr It's not an easy drop-in to run a Linux driver from source on > OpenBSD. Better to find an existing one. I'll see what I can do--a little messing around and the thing seems to be known as a "HG20f9". XP found a driver for it right away--and it appears that the Debian people have heard of it as well (there's a driver on Github). I'll look through some of the OpenBSD drivers and see if I can find something close to hack up. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 17:23:16 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:23:16 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> References: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512D43E4.8020504@gmail.com> On 26/02/2013 22:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/26/2013 02:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've >> yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > Yes, they are pretty flexible (and reasonably hard to kill!). The > 380Z wasn't bad either, although not quite in the same league. I'm not > sure what a good equivalent this side of the Pond would be - maybe an > Apple II as long as it came with a few useful cards? > >> But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC >> and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder >> if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, >> at least to learn programming. > > Absolutely. I suspect for many people it appeals because it's a cheap > computer, and they don't really have a particular use in mind for it > (so it doesn't matter that it's rather middle-ground for so many > situations). > https://raspberryjamboree-es2001.eventbrite.com/# > cheers > > Jules > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 17:33:41 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:33:41 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> References: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 February 2013 22:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 02/26/2013 02:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've >> yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > Yes, they are pretty flexible (and reasonably hard to kill!). The 380Z > wasn't bad either, although not quite in the same league. I'm not sure what > a good equivalent this side of the Pond would be - maybe an Apple II as long > as it came with a few useful cards? If you wanted to get a teenager interested in car mechanics, would you give them an late-19th-century Daimler-Benz ? I mean, it's mechanically simple! No, of course you wouldn't, because it's an antique. It's barely able to chug along a road at all and it complies with no modern road-safety standards - it doesn't even have a steering wheel, it has a tiller. No, you would want something that had a steering wheel, the usual stop and go pedals, indicators and headlights and so on - something that actually resembled a car. That being so, would you give them a huge 1950s sedan? I mean, they're simpler than modern cars. No, because it's huge and heavy and complicated to run compared to a modern car where you put petrol in and it goes for a year without maintenance. Also, along with all the maintenance and the fact that it's huge and intimidating, if you have one that still works, it might be a collectible vintage item; if it's not old enough to be vintage, it's probably still worth money. No, you'd give them a little modern compact car, maybe not this year's latest model, one from a few years ago - small, basic, safe, roadworthy and familiar and resembling other vehicles they might encounter. A runabout, something cheap and simple and disposable. In this extended metaphor, being roadworthy means being usable on the Web. That is what 21st century computers are /for/, that is their purpose in existence. Being roadworthy means being able to run Firefox, say - some standard browser and other fairly standard software. Having conventional controls - a steering wheel etc. - means having a GUI, being worked with a mouse and so on. You are debating which model of 1890s horseless carriage would be most suitable, when to an impartial outside observer, all of them are utterly irrelevant. To a child born in the developed world this century, the Web is part of life, always there at megabit speeds, as ubiq > > >> But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC >> and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder >> if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, >> at least to learn programming. > > > Absolutely. I suspect for many people it appeals because it's a cheap > computer, and they don't really have a particular use in mind for it (so it > doesn't matter that it's rather middle-ground for so many situations). > > cheers > > Jules > -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 17:39:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361921977.61686.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:01 PM PST Doc Shipley wrote: > My take on the Raspberry Pi is that it offers EXACTLY what it claims to offer. A cheap, accessible ENTRY POINT into programming and/or hardware hacking. It seems to be more about high level hardware interfacing then hardware hacking in the purest sense - chip level interfacing. Building or modifying a sbc, even a very rudimentary one, from discrete parts is more of what I would expect, and what I did expect when I first heard of it. Or being able to add some sort of functionality, etc. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 17:42:56 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:42:56 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 26 February 2013 23:33, Liam Proven wrote: I don't know how that got sent half-done! > To a child born in the developed world this century, the Web is part > of life, always there at megabit speeds, as ubiq ... as ubiquitous as air. Computers have GUIs, windows, taskbars etc, and come with a web browser, as does even a cheap basic old phone or pocket music player. Games are real-time 3D, even ones on a cheap 2- or 3- generation old games console such as might be given to preschoolers to play with. No, a BBC Micro or anything from the 1980s is not a suitable teaching tool. It is a flint axe when the kids grew up with sliced bread. It is a dugout canoe when grandad and grandma go yachting at the weekend. The mere idea is laughably unrealistic. If you are teaching a kid to drive, you don't teach them how to build the car first. If you're teaching them to maintain a car, you don't teach them how to design and construct an engine first. So, no, actually, tools like BASIC and assembly code have no relevance today, not really. Because the days when a BBC Micro was a computer are so long ago that these kid's *parents* don't even really remember them. A BBC Micro is not a computer any more, because it is 2013 now. People live in space and have a Dynabook containing the entire Hitch-hiker's Guide to the Galaxy in their pockets - it is normal for them to have access to basically the entirety of human wisdom, wirelessly - because even their parents don't remember phones that attached to *wires coming out the wall* - because these are things so cheap that even the kids in India and China are getting them now. Assembly code is equivalent to how to chip a sharp arrowhead from a piece of flint. BASIC is equivalent to learning how to smelt iron. And the Raspberry Pi is a kids' computer that is cheaper than giving them that old dusty Pentium 4 in the attic, because [a] you'd have to get the P4 working again and install software on it, [b] it's a huge noisy ugly piece of *office equipment* and not something a kid would want to play with, and mostly because [c] The Raspberry Pi costs less to buy than the electricity used by that P4 running every evening for a significant chunk of a year. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 17:59:33 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:59:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: at least one of the best ways to learn computing was Re: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361923173.38740.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Where are you anyway? Canada or US? What about a clone? I might be able to find you one of those. And you're totally w/i your rights to decline, just please don't because it ain't an IBeeMer. Even an Apple might be a possibility. I can't control shipping costs, USPS isn't too bad usually, but maybe for 20-30$ I could rustle you up something. Would ship from 07731 NJ. Point taken though. But for as many people that truly want to learn discrete h/w, there is always something available for 100-150$. And often much less. One of the coolest projects I've seen to date is the Radio Electronics RE Robot brain, 80188 based. I have everything - schematics, artwork, firmware images, even a contact (named Chris!) who built the whole robot. Gernsback used to have a bbs. What I wouldn't do for those archives. But at least I have all the raw materials, and a "revolutionary" new way of making pcb's _at_home_, that works all the time I'm told. And the project is at least somewhat tried and true,being it was an actual board manufactured by Vesta Technology, who's still around. Hey Jules, I have a dead 5160 mainboard with some weird wire routing going on. For shippage. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:53 PM PST Jules Richardson wrote: >On 02/26/2013 03:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Apples and IBMs are somewhat plentiful. > >Hmm, I'd love to find an Apple II or an IBM 5150 (or '60, but I'm not too bothered about having a hard disk). I don't think there are any even remotely nearby though, which means shipping (and worse still, the possibility of ebay prices) From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 26 18:01:23 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:01:23 +0100 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> On 26-feb-2013 23:47, Earl Evans wrote: > OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an > emulated PDP-11 running RT11. > > When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected > to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen > when, say, doing a DIR command. > > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the > good text. Sounds like it may be related to (software/hardware) flow control. I only have a VT220 here, so I'm not totally sure how the VT100 exactly functions, but I assume it's the 'standard' 9600 bauds, 8 data bits and 1 stop bit? (When you're working with actual hardware.) - MG From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 18:07:06 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:07:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: at least one of the best ways to learn computing was Re: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361923626.46268.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Ok ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:59 PM PST Jim Stephens wrote: > >On 2/26/2013 1:42 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I haven't looked at the pi much, besides reading an article some time ago somewhere. At first glance I can't see how it can help a person learn hardware. No clue on that one. >The way that it helps with education and learning is that instead of telling someone to go buy and dedicate a laptop or other machine to a lab purpose, and download say a DVD to load it one can tell them to obtain a Pi and an SD card image to boot it on. > >There are several examples of lab setups where this is already done both by attaching adapters to outside things (relay boards, etc.) and another which attaches to a breadboard. > >The pi is not going to be the focus of the vast majority of these things, but will be the computer vehicle that delivers the educational setup. > >It can be the center of a lesson say to learn to program things that require only what it has to interact with, keyboard, mouse an display, plus for the model b adding in a network. > >Instead of picking up $25 random ecycled machine this is intended to replace that role. Also if the need arises in the right setting it can be the focus of the lesson. I hear you. I never suggested it was useless, nor uninteresting. I find what I have learned about interesting myself. But as I stated in the other post it's not about h/w hacking as I define it, though it may be a valid very current use of the terms. >One suggested in these threads, "what not to plug into the gpio pins". Screwing up that lesson costs you another Pi. I suspect there will be people who will jump in and plug thing in randomly, but they won't get far. I suspect most people will figure out what to do with what is there. Ok. But blowing an IBM mainboard due to mishap could require a lot of chips LOL or maybe only a few. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 18:08:17 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:08:17 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 26 February 2013 20:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > OK, the book does suggest it's to be used by children (teenagers) who > want to learn to program and who only hacve access to their paren'ts PC > which siad parents don't want messad about with. OK, but wait a second. > Firstly, said parents are not going to want to lend the keyboard, mouse, > etc form that PCB, so you have to buy another of each to use the Rpi. > Thsi emans the cose is almost tripled. And more imporatly, if you want to > downlaod the OS for the RPi usign said PC, you need rawwrite or similar. > I may be missign something, but I feel a utility that can overwrite a > masss storage device is a lot more dangerous than a C complier. Oh well.... > > Gettign back to the requirement for itnernet access, by all means make it > networkable., But don't require it. Have a docuemnted way (i.e. one that > does not require you to geusess at the dpckg command) to install from > local storage devices. And make a complete archive of sources and > bianries aviaalble on soemthign that can be read by the Rpi, possibly > with an add-on device (I have no idea if the Rpi supports USB CD-ROM or > DVD-ROM drives). Tony, look, it is perfectly fine if you personally choose to live a 1980s existence using 1980s technology. You could have much newer and more powerful computers if you wanted; I've offered to give them to you, deliver them and set them up and show you around them. You refused. You thought about it for a bit, I'll give you that, but you said no. That's fine. It's your choice, your call. But because you choose not to have broadband, choose to use a 1980s PC, choose not to have 21st century technology in your life - does not mean or imply that everyone else should. Something like 80% of the country has broadband in the home. [Citation: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/market-data/communications-market-reports/cmr11/uk/1.3] Get a phoneline from Talktalk, they give it to you for free. Wireless networks, flat screens, USB peripherals, SD storage - this stuff is all so old-fashioned now that people are throwing it away. It is appearing in skips beside the road; people are giving away TFTs on Freecycle regularly. I've sent a few to ComputerAid myself because I have no use for 14" or 15" desktop LCDs any more - why would I want to use something so small? You don't have any of this stuff because *you choose not to.* In my Sony ereader - a present from a departing lodger - I have the two smallest memory cards I could find in the junkpile: a 32MB Sony memory stick and a 512MB MicroSD card in a MicroSD-to-SD adaptor that I also found in the bits pile. Those are so small, my friends marvel that I have kept such things. A four gigabyte SD card is ?2 these days. The cost of a half of beer or a bag of chips. You can still get 2GB ones - they cost the same; these prices are at cost. 1GB cards cost more - they are rarities. I am on a classic computers mailing list; I am known among my techno-geek friends as someone with an interest in old computers. I am renowned for running ancient, trailing-edge kit. My main PC, the one I'm typing on, is a 3GHz Core 2 Quad Extreme with 8GB of RAM. It came off my local Freegle list. All it cost me was the train fare to go and collect it. For a junker, it's high-end, yes, but still, this is the kind of PC people are throwing away now. Cellphones have used MicroUSB chargers for some years. Having a spare charger is very likely; again, one would cost a pound or two in a computer fair. An HDMI cable can be bought from Poundland and there is a clue to what it will cost you in the name of the shop. You /choose/ to avoid technology younger than 30 years old. That's your option; have fun. But to complain and cavil that the Raspberry Pi is not really cheap because you need exotic bits is completely unreasonable. The bits it needs are junk from the spare room of the sort of technologically-reasonably-with-it family that might buy a toy computer for their kids. And to suggest that the children should be learning how to debug a PDP/11 is as absurd as saying that they should be able to build a yurt, find some suitable flint, make a stone spear tip and slaughter and butcher a mammoth. Yes, our ancestors did that, 10,000Y ago or something, and these were essential life-skills then. They are not any more. This is a little American-centric, but here is a guide to the worldview of a college-age student of today. The Class of 2016 - those are kids entering university this year. http://www.beloit.edu/mindset/2016/ And because I know that you don't have graphical WWW access at home, Tony, because that is too modern for you and you don't see the need, I'll copy and paste it. I hope this message doesn't take too long to download at 14kbs, but I can't remember, because 14kbs modems became superseded and obsolete 20 years ago now and I have not used one in 2 decades - that's half my life ago. *The Mindset List for the Class of 2016* For this generation of entering college students, born in 1994, Kurt Cobain, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Richard Nixon and John Wayne Gacy have always been dead. 1. They should keep their eyes open for Justin Bieber or Dakota Fanning at freshman orientation. 2. They have always lived in cyberspace, addicted to a new generation of ?electronic narcotics.? 3. The Biblical sources of terms such as ?Forbidden Fruit,? ?The writing on the wall,? ?Good Samaritan,? and ?The Promised Land? are unknown to most of them. 4. Michael Jackson?s family, not the Kennedys, constitutes ?American Royalty.? 5. If they miss /The Daily Show/, they can always get their news on YouTube. 6. Their lives have been measured in the fundamental particles of life: bits, bytes, and bauds. 7. Robert De Niro is thought of as Greg Focker's long-suffering father-in-law, not as Vito Corleone or Jimmy Conway. 8. Bill Clinton is a senior statesman of whose presidency they have little knowledge. 9. They have never seen an airplane ?ticket.? 10. On TV and in films, the ditzy dumb blonde female generally has been replaced by a couple of /Dumb and Dumber/ males. * * 11. The paradox "too big to fail" has been, for their generation, what "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" was for their grandparents'. 12. For most of their lives, maintaining relations between the U.S. and the rest of the world has been a woman?s job in the State Department. 13. They can?t picture people actually carrying luggage through airports rather than rolling it. 14. There has always been football in Jacksonville but never in Los Angeles. 15. While still fans of music on radio, they often listen to it on their laptops or replace it with music downloaded onto their MP3s and iPods. 16. Since they've been born, the United States has measured progress by a 2 percent jump in unemployment and a 16 cent rise in the price of a first class postage stamp. 17. Benjamin Braddock, having given up both a career in plastics and a relationship with Mrs. Robinson, could be their grandfather. 18. Their folks have never gazed with pride on a new set of bound encyclopedias on the bookshelf. 19. The Green Bay Packers have always celebrated with the Lambeau Leap. 20. Exposed bra straps have always been a fashion statement, not a wardrobe malfunction to be corrected quietly by well-meaning friends. 21. A significant percentage of them will enter college already displaying some hearing loss. 22. /The Real World/ has always stopped being polite and started getting real on MTV. 23. Women have always piloted war planes and space shuttles. 24. White House security has never felt it necessary to wear rubber gloves when gay groups have visited. 25. They have lived in an era of instant stardom and self-proclaimed celebrities, famous for being famous. 26. Having made the acquaintance of Furby at an early age, they have expected their toy friends to do ever more unpredictable things. 27. Outdated icons with images of floppy discs for ?save,? a telephone for ?phone,? and a snail mail envelope for ?mail? have oddly decorated their tablets and smart phone screens. 28. /Star Wars/ has always been just a film, not a defense strategy. 29. They have had to incessantly remind their parents not to refer to their CDs and DVDs as ?tapes.? 30. There have always been blue M&Ms, but no tan ones.? 31. Along with online viewbooks, parents have always been able to check the crime stats for the colleges their kids have selected. 32. Newt Gingrich has always been a key figure in politics, trying to change the way America thinks about everything. 33. They have come to political consciousness during a time of increasing doubts about America?s future. 34. Billy Graham is as familiar to them as Otto Graham was to their parents. 35. Probably the most tribal generation in history, they despise being separated from contact with their similar-aged friends. 36. Stephen Breyer has always been an Associate Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court. 37. Martin Lawrence has always been banned from hosting Saturday Night Live. 38. Slavery has always been unconstitutional in Mississippi, and Southern Baptists have always been apologizing for supporting it in the first place. 39. The Metropolitan Opera House in New York has always translated operas on seatback screens. 40. A bit of the late Gene Roddenberry, creator of /Star Trek/, has always existed in space. 41. Good music programmers are rock stars to the women of this generation, just as guitar players were for their mothers. 42. Gene therapy has always been an available treatment. 43. They were too young to enjoy the 1994 World Series, but then no one else got to enjoy it either. 44. The folks have always been able to grab an Aleve when the kids started giving them a migraine. 45. While the iconic TV series for their older siblings was the sci-fi show /Lost/, for them it?s /Breaking Bad/, a gritty crime story motivated by desperate economic circumstances. 46. Simba has always had trouble waiting to be King. 47. Before they purchase an assigned textbook, they will investigate whether it is available for rent or purchase as an e-book. 48. They grew up, somehow, without the benefits of /Romper Room/. 49. There has always been a World Trade Organization. 50. L.L. Bean hunting shoes have always been known as just plain Bean Boots. 51. They have always been able to see Starz on Direct TV. 52. Ice skating competitions have always been jumping matches. 53. There has always been a /Santa Clause/. 54. NBC has never shown /A Wonderful Life/ more than twice during the holidays. 55. Mr. Burns has replaced J.R.Ewing as the most shot-at man on American television. 56. They have always enjoyed school and summer camp memories with a digital yearbook. 57. Herr Schindler has always had a List; Mr. Spielberg has always had an Oscar. 58. Selena's fans have always been in mourning. 59. They know many established film stars by their voices on computer-animated blockbusters. 60. History has always had its own channel. 61. Thousands have always been gathering for ?million-man? demonstrations in Washington, D.C. 62. Television and film dramas have always risked being pulled because the story line was too close to the headlines from which they were ?ripped.? 63. The/Twilight/ Zone involves vampires, not Rod Serling. 64. Robert Osborne has always been introducing Hollywood history on TCM. 65. Little Caesar has always been proclaiming ?Pizza Pizza.? 66. They have no recollection of when Arianna Huffington was a conservative. 67. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome has always been officially recognized with clinical guidelines. 68. They watch television everywhere but on a television. 69. /Pulp Fiction/?s meal of a "Royale with Cheese" and an ?Amos and Andy milkshake? has little or no resonance with them. 70. Point-and-shoot cameras are soooooo last millennium. 71. Despite being preferred urban gathering places, two-thirds of the independent bookstores in the United States have closed for good during their lifetimes. 72. Astronauts have always spent well over a year in a single space flight. 73. Lou Gehrig's record for most consecutive baseball games played has never stood in their lifetimes. 74. Genomes of living things have always been sequenced. 75. The Sistine Chapel ceiling has always been brighter and cleaner. Copyright? 2012 Beloit College/ Mindset List/ is a registered trademark -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From db at db.net Tue Feb 26 18:10:13 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:10:13 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130227001013.GA90992@night.db.net> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 02:47:40PM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: > Also posted this question in the Vintage Computer Forums. > > OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an > emulated PDP-11 running RT11. > > When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected > to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen > when, say, doing a DIR command. It's possible the VT-100 can't keep up to the emulated PDP-11. The VT-100 needed a lot of padding characters or working XON/XOFF soft flow control. It's just a guess. > - Earl - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 26 18:26:11 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:26:11 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512D52A3.9030304@neurotica.com> On 02/26/2013 06:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. EUR >> 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. >> But it should still become cheaper.... > > I know this can be a touchy subject with folks that just want to make > one thing and not have an explosion of similar but different purchase > options, but I usually ask if it's possible to get just a bare board. > I can't afford to spend EUR 250 on anything PDP-8 related right now, > but if I could get a bare board for a fraction of that and solder my > own, I'd seriously consider it. > > It's likely that there is not enough interest in a board-only option > to make it a viable option (especially if you are planning on having > the run assembled somewhere), but I thought I would ask. +1 (qty. 2) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 18:27:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 16:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: RGB -> VGA adaptors (was: Re: Tek 4317) Message-ID: <1361924873.68466.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 3:12 PM PST Mark Tapley wrote: >Some searching on the Color Computer site leads to this: > >http://miba51.com/CoCo_VGA_Adpater.html > >Roy Justus' converter from 15.7 kHz RGB as generated by a CoCo3 to 31 kHz VGA. >At one point, another was available from Chris Hawks > >http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.tandy.coco/63638 > >I have no experience with either, nor any connection except being a >fellow CoCo user. > >Hope this helps. Everyone is building scan doublers these days it seems. Princeton probably made the first one. Amiga had at least one flicker fixer, which is a bit different, the issue there being correcting interlaced video. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 19:01:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:01:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361926881.4292.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 3:23 PM PST Dave wrote: >> Absolutely. I suspect for many people it appeals because it's a cheap computer, and they don't really have a particular use in mind for it (so it doesn't matter that it's rather middle-ground for so many situations). >> > >https://raspberryjamboree-es2001.eventbrite.com/# Being that at least it somewhat lends itself to general purpose computing, someone should devise a case, charging circuit, etc. that would facilitate the piecing together of a low cost portable/netbook, where more or less standard batteries, lcds, keyboards etc can be added. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 19:21:23 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:21:23 +0000 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers Message-ID: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> In freebsd there's a linux compatibility library/package at least for binaries but I'd be surprised if there wasn't something similar for compilation. Also freebsd (not openbsd but they're all a family so port is likely) I used ndis to use the windows driver for a not supported at the time wireless card in bsd. Not sure if that would be in line with other drivers as well. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 26 19:25:42 2013 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:25:42 +0000 Subject: Qudos MINICHIP / Quickchip ECAD and Ferranti ULA docs Message-ID: <512D6096.6040306@philpem.me.uk> In my long-running tradition of obscure requests... Does anyone know if a copy of the Qudos Ltd "MINICHIP" gate array design tool still exists anywhere? This was a CAD tool designed for the BBC Micro (with 6502 Second Processor) which allowed the machine to be used for the design of Ferranti ULA gate arrays. There was also a similar tool called "Quickchip" for the Acorn Archimedes ("A440 only" according to page 22 of this: http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Acorn/Brochures/Acorn_APP155_HardwareExpansionsAndSoftware.pdf ) There's some mention of MINICHIP here: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/inf/literature/newsletters//ecn01-20/p002.htm http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GzPpAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA85&ots=sR_gUYkMii&dq=ferranti%20ula9c&pg=PA82#v=onepage I'm also interested in a copy of any documentation on Ferranti ULAs - databooks, details on the logic cells (specifically the ULA9C series but ULA5C may also be useful), design software (or documentation thereof) and so on. Examples: Qudos Ltd. - Qudos Logic Array Design Software Manual QED2 (pub. 1986) Ferranti - Ferranti ULA Design Manual A/F002 (pub. 1981) Guessing what I'm trying to do is left as an exercise to the reader... but it involves photos of the Tube ULA layer masks and a copy of Degate... :P Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Feb 26 19:25:16 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:25:16 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130227012516.GA17315@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 10:45:50PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The talk about the Acorn and RISC OS reminds me that I've been > > interested in one of these, primarily to run RISC OS. What is the > > recommended version, price, and place to get a Raspberry Pi from? > > Over here Maplin sell a starter kit which they claim includes everything > you need. Well, it obviosuly doens't include a monitor. Nor does it > inlcude a case for the Rpi or any documentation. What it does include is > the Model B Rpi, USB hub, PSU, USB keyboard, USB mouse, WiFi dongle, SD > card with Rasbian and a couple of cables. > > There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the software, > adn the docuemtnion. > > The hardwae: I am not goign to maon about the USB ports. Or the HDMI > output. Or the fact that it's one partly-undocuemnted chip. I am goign to > moan abotu that GPIO port. It directly conencts to the ARM-thing. So if > you make a mistake, you wreck the Rpi. Logic signals are at 3.3V (not > suprisingly), but there's a 5V supply on tyhe GPIO connector, jsut > waiting to be shorted to the wrong thing byu a mis-wired cable. > > Oh, and the GPIO port has nowhere near enough pins. You have a 2 wire > async port (TxD and RxD. SPI with a couple of CS lines. I2C. And 8 user > I/O lines which may not be a single 8 bit port (so there may not be > aquick way to send out a byte). ARGH! > > What I would have done is to buffer the snync port to RS232 levels on the > board (lets face it, most people who want this port at all, wat RS23 2 > levels). DO that with a _socketed_ MAX3232. BLow that up, jsut repalce > it. If you need a 3.3V async port, pop out the MAX3232 and put a jumper > array acorss the socket. > > Then buffer the I2C port. bring that out, and also have a couple of > PCF8574s (8 bit I/O) and a PCF8591 (8 bit ADC/DAC) on the board. Again > socketed. > > Yes it would be more expensive, but it might actually be useful Wait. They squeezed every _cent_ from the BOM and you are surprised that the results are less than ... impressive? > On a more generaly note, it looks a mess. There are a lot of bits to plug > together for the complete system. The board has conenctors all round it. > And it needs a case, there are SMD components on both sides of the PCB. > > Software : Unless you have a fast internet connection that you can > connet the Rpi to, it's pretty much unusalbe. The suppleid Raspbian does > not include sources, and there is no obvious pointer as to where to get Yes, that information was cleverly hidden at: http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianFAQ or, for just the package sources: http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianRepository and: https://github.com/raspberrypi has the kernel and various other bits. Yes, the GPU specific code is still binary only - you can thank Broadcom for that. > them (since this is supposed to be an educational machine, it fails > spectacularly here). There are also all sorts of thigns misisng form the > standard distribution. YEs, you can install them, but. you ened the > internet conenction. The packages you consider important and the packages that I consider important and finally those that anybody else considers important probably don't have that much overlap. What should they do? Install the world and require a 32 GB SD-Card (guessing on the size here). Offer a 16 GB download (compressed) for the "base image"? Similiarly for not including source in the standard image. The checked out kernel tree alone is several hundred MB. The size of the full download for Debian armhf testing (what Raspbian is based on) is a full DVD image with 4.3 GB. And that presumably has only te binaries as _compressed_ archives. Shipping _everything_ (complete binary & source distro) to _everyone_ who buys a Raspberry Pi would increase the price a quite a bit. Lets say we only need a 16 GB sd-card: that is another USD 15 right there and most people won't need it. So: you can easily get the stuff, but it needs an Internet connection. Big deal. So complete and test your Raspberry Pi setup before you wander off in the woods where there is no network connection ;-) > Docuemntation : What documentation? Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it > doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how > to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. For a machien aimed at > beginners, there should be a set of instruciton of ghte form 'plug this > in here'. Look at the original BBC micro user guide. People seem to mistake the Raspberry Pi as the second coming of the BBC Micro. It assuredly isn't. > There is a 3rd party user guide. It is a joke. For a achie nthat is > supposed ot teach programming, I would think the section on programming > should be rather logner than it is. And should mentuion things like > variables. Loops. Subroutines. ARGH! > > There is no docuemtnation on msot of the linux commands. No problem for > us, but... In particular, there is no docuemtned way to back up the OS. > Yes, you can connect a USB card readeer, put in another SD card, and dd > it over. Fine if you know how to use dd. Not fine if you don't. Again, The Internet exists. So does Google. Seriously. > there needs ot be a specific set of instructions on how to do this. > Especially as it's all too easy to mis-configure the machien so it won't > boot. And that is one key thing they got right with the Raspberry: if it doesn't boot, you swap the SD card and you're done. No need to hunt down the JTAG gear. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From db at db.net Tue Feb 26 19:35:01 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:35:01 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> References: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 01:01:23AM +0100, MG wrote: > On 26-feb-2013 23:47, Earl Evans wrote: > > OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an > > emulated PDP-11 running RT11. > > > > When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected > > to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen > > when, say, doing a DIR command. > > > > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the > > good text. > > Sounds like it may be related to (software/hardware) flow control. I > only have a VT220 here, so I'm not totally sure how the VT100 exactly > functions, but I assume it's the 'standard' 9600 bauds, 8 data bits > and 1 stop bit? (When you're working with actual hardware.) The VT100 could not keep up with full speed 9600 baud. The back of the VT100 manual has a table of how many nul chars you need per baud rate. > > - MG -Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 19:41:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:41:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361929290.22118.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 3:42 PM PST Liam Proven wrote: >On 26 February 2013 23:33, Liam Proven wrote: > >I don't know how that got sent half-done! Did you send it from a pi? >> To a child born in the developed world this century, the Web is part >> of life, always there at megabit speeds, as ubiq > >... as ubiquitous as air. Computers have GUIs, windows, taskbars etc, >and come with a web browser, as does even a cheap basic old phone or >pocket music player. Games are real-time 3D, even ones on a cheap 2- >or 3- generation old games console such as might be given to >preschoolers to play with. > >No, a BBC Micro or anything from the 1980s is not a suitable teaching >tool. It is a flint axe when the kids grew up with sliced bread. It is >a dugout canoe when grandad and grandma go yachting at the weekend. nobody uses flint axes. But they do fashion numerous tools and even build their own boats sometimes. >The mere idea is laughably unrealistic. > >If you are teaching a kid to drive, you don't teach them how to build >the car first. But the first drivers of cars needed to know a lot more about them if they wanted successful outings. You don't need to know a single thing about mechanics to drive. But to be a mechanic.you do need to know how to dismantle and reassemble a car. The "kids" already know how to "drive", turn on their computers and do basic tasks. What in the world does that have to do with anything. >If you're teaching them to maintain a car, you don't teach them how to >design and construct an engine first. Another analogy that doesn't quite seem appropriate. >So, no, actually, tools like BASIC and assembly code have no >relevance today, not really. Because the days when a BBC Micro was a >computer are so long ago that these kid's *parents* don't even really >remember them. I took a class and my first foray into BASIC was on an Atari 400 w/membrane k/b. Rest assured I will never forget. >A BBC Micro is not a computer any more, because it is 2013 now. People >live in space and have a Dynabook containing the entire Hitch-hiker's >Guide to the Galaxy in their pockets - it is normal for them to have >access to basically the entirety of human wisdom, wirelessly - because >even their parents don't remember phones that attached to *wires >coming out the wall* - because these are things so cheap that even the >kids in India and China are getting them now. You engaging in delusion. At least 1/2 of the US still maintain landlines, in addition to mobile phones. If you haven't been in a hurricane lately you may not be able to appreciate their utility when cellular networks crap the bed. >Assembly code is equivalent to how to chip a sharp arrowhead from a >piece of flint. Every flippin thing that runs on any computer in the world is running assembly instructions. Assembler or analysis thereof is NEVER going away. >BASIC is equivalent to learning how to smelt iron. LOL and how many groups and community colleges are engaging in that these days. If you're unaware foundry work has seen quite a resurgence in the last 15 years. And the point being you still and for a long time will need people who understand the rudimentary elements and processes that make up the tools we use every day. If for no other reason they just are curious. How ironic that just today I had an offline conversation about a 14 year old kid who's fixing CGA monitors for extra cash!!! >And the Raspberry Pi is a kids' computer that is cheaper than giving >them that old dusty Pentium 4 in the attic, because [a] you'd have to >get the P4 working again and install software on it, [b] it's a huge >noisy ugly piece of *office equipment* and not something a kid would >want to play with, and mostly because > >[c] The Raspberry Pi costs less to buy than the electricity used by >that P4 running every evening for a significant chunk of a year. But it doesn't teach bare fundamentals. That's the point everyone is trying to make it seems. >-- >Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile >Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven >MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven >Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 26 19:48:32 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 17:48:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Liam Proven wrote: [massive snip] > > *The Mindset List for the Class of 2016* > > For this generation of entering college students, born in 1994, Kurt > Cobain, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Richard Nixon and John Wayne Gacy > have always been dead. > [massive snip II, the Snippening] /me high-fives Liam g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 26 19:49:52 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:49:52 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512D32A0.9050203@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6EACD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 2/26/13 2:09 PM, "Dave" wrote: >On 26/02/2013 20:24, Tony Duell wrote: >>> On 02/25/2013 04:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> There are, IMHO, 3 thigns wrong with the Rpi. The hardwre, the >>>>software, >>>> adn the docuemtnion. >>> I think my main problem with it is that I'm tainted by nostalgia, and >>>what >>> I really wish it was is a backplane system with separate cards for ROM, >>> RAM, CPU, I/O, video etc. :-) Much more fun to mess around with, put >>>into >>> a cool-looking chassis, use to teach kids about how a computer works >>>etc. >> >> :-) >> >> >> As I have said several times, if you want to learn how a computer really >> works, buy a non-working Unibus PDP11 (nto an 11/24, 11/84, 11/94, etc >> ,one of the TTL-baed ones), a PDP8/e or an HP9830 and learn to fix it. >>By >> the time it's working you will know just how a CPU executes >>instructions. >> >> If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've >> yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. >> >> But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC >> and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder >> if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, >> at least to learn programming. >> >> -tony > >Its aimed at teaching "computer science" rather than "programming". > >You only need "one" PC per school of PI's to create the SD card >installations. This comes with some development tools installed. > >Each child can have their own SD card and so you don't need any network >to develop. > >You can program on the PI rather than having to use a PC as with other >many embedded solutions. > >Its cheap enough and low power enough so that you can stick it in in a >project and not worry about the cost. > >Take a look the web site:- > >http://www.raspberrypi.org/ > >and see what folks are doing..... > >Dave >G4UGM > >P.S. mine is still sat in front of the TV as a media server. However I >think I will get another to use as small file server. > > > As I've considered how I might use this in education, I'm considering another factor: if someone steals it, it's not the end of the world. In fact, it's not unreasonable to ask for a $50 tuition fee/deposit/whatever, offering 'scholarships' to those who need them, and you won't bankrupt your program if one or two kids/adults in ten decide to swipe the thing. In fact, I'd consider that a reasonable cost of doing business, if my 'business' is educating people who can't afford even today's modest prices for netbooks or used laptops. I've thought about this in the shadow of the BBC Micro, and I think the big difference is that with the BBC Micro the educational program was conceived and the hardware followed (at least as I understand it), while with the RPi the hardware is put out there and it's up to educators to develop the program(s). OK, fair enough, and the BBC project is a powerful inspiration IMHO. That inspiration probably does need to be updated to 2013, but I think we can manage that. Regarding documentation: people who are complaining about that probably don't appreciate how much documentation costs. The $35 device is now $100 or more. Besides, educators using this as a platform will create their own documentation. If you're just a grumpy hobbyist who doesn't like the fact it doesn't come with a catalog-sized manual, go buy something else. This wasn't produced with you in mind. I have Linux and Plan 9 running on mine. I particularly like playing with Plan 9, and the distribution that's been created works great on the RPi - I don't have to fight device compatibility when my goal is to play with the OS. It's also really cool to completely change the device's personality by plugging in another SD card. This is the perfect platform to play with some ideas I have about OS design and implementation - I don't have to bucket someone else's bilge. I also agree with you, Dave, that it's a great little project card. I've been wanting to do a little web-based media server for the living room that doesn't take a bunch of room or power, and a RPi running Linux seems perfect - once I'm done playing with it. But then I'll just buy another one for play purposes. :-) -- Ian K7PDP From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 26 19:56:20 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:56:20 +0100 Subject: WTB: DEC Multia/UDB (DPS-75TB, 75.24 W) PSU Message-ID: <512D67C4.1060108@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have a Delta Electronics DPS-75TB 75.24 W power supply unit, perhaps a spare one and willing to sell/trade it? To clarify, it's the one found in the Digital Multia/UDB, or the VX40 of mine at least. I may also be interested in a full Multia/UDB, maybe a VX41, or a gutted one even (as long as the PSU still works fine). I may also consider a similarly-sized DEC 3000. Thanks in advance. - MG From js at cimmeri.com Tue Feb 26 19:57:46 2013 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:57:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D681A.8040208@cimmeri.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Subject: > Re: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 > MOS board? > From: > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: > Sun, 24 Feb 2013 19:37:05 +0000 (GMT) > > To: > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> >> > Folks, I'm restoring an 11/34A. One of the MOS memory boards it came >> > with is a circa 1979 Motorola model "MMS1117", variation "58 PC" >> > (64KWords / 18 bits / w/parity). Would like to know if anyone out >> > there has configuration information for this seemingly uncommon board? >> > It's a very high quality board and has socketed RAM, so it'd be >> > especially nice to be able to keep using it. It has 5 switch packs >> > (only 2 of which have markings) and at least a dozen jumpers. >> > > I had a similar problem when I got my first PDP11 (a PDP11/45). The donor > had wanted to keep the memory that was used in it, he gave me what I > later discoveed to be a 32KW MUD board (actually, it could be populated > right up to 128KW, of course only 124K of those would be useable). I had > no idea how to set the swiches, or indeed, what sort of backplane wiring > I would need to use it . > > This was logn before the days of the web. so there was no way to ask > others what to do. > > And I got it working. I spent a few weeks tracing out the scheamtics of > the unknown board and figuring out just what all the switches and jumpers > did. A long job, sure, but IMHO worth it. > > -tony Wow. Do you recall how many layers the PCB had? I'd be interested in seeing a sample scan of the schematic you laboriously produced, just to get an idea of technique. The web has certainly made hobbies like this unimaginably easier, if not just possible at all. - jS From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Feb 26 19:45:44 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:45:44 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130227014544.GB17315@thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 08:07:46PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > On 2/25/2013 2:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it > > > doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how > > > to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. > > I suspect most of the people are now upgraded from 300 baud and TTY > > Well, probably. But I am wondering jsut who the Rpi is marketed at. > > It's not really suitable as an ambedded controller (nowhere near enough > I/O, and a dififuclt PCB to mount). > > It's not really suitable as a machien to laarn programming on if you > don't have anything else. BEcuase you need 'something else' to use it. > Like the internet connection. The Internet exists and these days, that is something that is pretty much assumed as a given fact. Besides, where did you _get_ your Raspberry? Don't tell me you mailed Farnell (or whoever sold it to you) a filled out order form via snail mail. ;-) Yes, they could have included a set of "programming starter books", but that would probably have been another USD 100+ on the bill. > Gettign back to the requirement for itnernet access, by all means make it > networkable., But don't require it. Have a docuemnted way (i.e. one that > does not require you to geusess at the dpckg command) to install from > local storage devices. And make a complete archive of sources and > bianries aviaalble on soemthign that can be read by the Rpi, possibly > with an add-on device (I have no idea if the Rpi supports USB CD-ROM or > DVD-ROM drives). Unless they dropped the relevant drivers from the Raspbian standard kernel, accessing USB optical drives should be trivial. It _is_ running Linux, after all. > > connections to the internet. And shipping the > 500,000 units already > > shipped with more paper would make no sense. I was perfectly happy > > with what I got. > > Hmmm.. DOcuemtnatio nsi a sore point with me. My view is that no matter > how good a product, it's useless if you can't work out how to use it. For > a machine aimed at beginners, you need simple (not dumbed-down and > content free, but explaining things from step 1) docuemtnation. > > If people get lost in the first few minutes, they are not going to carry > on with the thing. They'll find soemthign else ot play with. > > I have a similar feelign about the GPIO connecotr. Make a msitake, you've > wreked the Rpi. Yes it's cheap enough to replace, I guess (even though > that doens;'t fit with how I work). But people starting out make a lot of > mistakes. If they blow up 3 or more Rpis is quick succession, they will > give up. On the other hand, if they blow up a repalcable chip, even if > it's not cheap, they will not feel the same loss. Or at least I wouldn't. > > > > > I will certainly be hitting one of your software complaints, and that is > > that I plan to duplicate the software and source repository locally at > > some time soon, but have not gotten around to it. Look up how to > > How do you go aobut that? There is no obvious way to download it. If you want to host a duplicate of the repository, debmirror is the tool to use. You can then point your machines via sources.list to that local copy and keep it updated via debmirror & cron. As for "just download it": A full repository mirror fof Ubuntu Lucid for arm has almost 90000 files in it. I don't expect a full Raspbian mirror to be much smaller. > It is claimed to be the 'spiritual successor' of the BBC micro. It isn't. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Feb 26 19:53:21 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:53:21 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130227015321.GC17315@thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:50:07PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > On 26 February 2013 00:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > It looks like some sort of AROS distro might be an option as well. > > Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. > > Yes, the AROS team are working on an ARM version, but AFAIK, at the > moment, it can only run loaded as an application running under ARM > Linux with X.11 or possibly under QEMU. It cannot yet actually boot on > ARM hardware. > > Given that the Rpi struggles a bit with graphical Linux anyway, it's > not really an alternative at the moment. > > But if or when they ever do produce a native-booting version, that > will indeed be an option. AROS is small, slim and fast compared to > modern x86 OSs - although it's relatively feature-poor, and like the > AmigaOS 3 that it seeks to replicate, it has no VM, no memory > protection, no user security or anything. It does have a TCP/IP stack > and Web clients, though.] > > At the moment, TTBOMK, there are 4 OSs that run on Rpi: > > * Linux, obviously, as used on 99% of Pis > * RISC OS - a feature-complete port, but so far lacking graphics > acceleration etc. There is also Plan9, but I haven't tested that yet. > * Preliminary just-about-booting ports of NetBSD and FreeBSD NetBSD is quite a bit further along than "just-about-booting". It boots, supports USB, the network adapter and even enough of the graphics to run X via framebuffer console. It seems to be pretty stable - I've been running one of the development versions on one of my Raspberries for 2+ weeks now, most of the time occupied with building stuff from pkgsrc. Yes, NetBSD is rather slow on it - partly because it doesn't yet support DMA for USB, so there is plenty of room for improvement. But it works ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 26 20:00:14 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:00:14 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512D68AE.2020306@verizon.net> On 02/26/2013 05:47 PM, Earl Evans wrote: > Also posted this question in the Vintage Computer Forums. > > OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an > emulated PDP-11 running RT11. > > When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected > to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen > when, say, doing a DIR command. > > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the > good text. Too high a data rate without flow control. Either enable Xon/Xoff on both ends or use hardware control (most PCs do not support that correctly). If all else fails set the baud rated to something slower till the problem goes away. Allison > > I have tried this with SIMH under Linux, connecting the VT100 to the serial > console port of the Linux machine. I've also tried it under E11, using that > program's built-in serial terminal capacity. Same exact error in both cases. > > I've looked at the RT11 SET command for TT: to see if there are any > applicable parameters. Can't find any. I've set the SIMH TTO device to all > its possible settings: 7B, 7P, 8B, and UC. Same stuff in all cases. I've > looked at the serial settings on the VT100 to ensure 8 bits, no parity, and > correct baud rate. All good. > > The VT100 works fine with the Linux box doing Linux-ey things. No character > corruption when doing a big "ls" listing, OK with vi, etc. The SIMH and E11 > emulators work fine in their virtual consoles, with no character corruption > when doing a DIR, etc. > > Any ideas? I'd really like to, for instance, get my Raspberry Pi to be a > mini PDP-11 system, but I can't get past this character garbage when using > the real VT100. Help appreciated! And thanks for reading! > > - Earl > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 26 20:08:44 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:08:44 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> On 02/26/2013 01:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. > I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like > a KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of > both :-) > No flame intended but... USB is the least useful interface for PDP-8 as it's all driver dependent and PDP-8 is slow. must USB devices do not fit into the 12 bit form well. One that most users would want is a emulation of some mass storage device like DECtape or RX02, or maybe RK05 (or 5F). This is the most often needed item, second only to memory but that can be built as semiconductor. The storage is a disk emulation, then can be USB but IDE is easier to program on a machine with limited space. Of the IO for storage SD, and CF are the two best shots as they have the simplest and lowest protocol needs. To dump stuff from PDP-8 to PC a serial line is best suited and most economical to implement even if the host is crippled and only has USB (use a USB to serial adaptor). Allison > It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be > used as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and > restore mass storage media. > To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks > and tapes to dump: Please don't flame. > > Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: > http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/omnibus_usb > > My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version > and do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling > those boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough > preorders. So I ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how > many boards he wants and how much he could spend. Based on that > feedback I'll decide if I can do it and fix a price. It won't be cheap > - but very helpful and cool! > > I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough > interest to do it. > > If you have any suggestions, let me know! > > > Kind regards, > > Philipp :-) > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Feb 26 20:35:26 2013 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:35:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gates, Zuckerberg urge kids to code Message-ID: <1361932526.76545.YahooMailNeo@web142502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> " Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg and Twitter creator Jack Dorsey are among the tech celebrities in a new video to promote the teaching and learning of computer coding in schools. Titled What most schools don't teach, the video released online on Tuesday begins with Zuckerberg, Gates and other tech icons recalling how they got their start in coding. For some, it was in sixth grade. For others, such as Ruchi Sanghvi, Facebook's first female engineer, it happened in college. Running less than six minutes, the video promotes Code.org, a non-profit foundation created last year to boost computer programming education. "The first time I actually had something come up and say 'hello world,' and I made a computer do that, that was just astonishing," recalls Gabe Newell, president of video game studio Valve. But it's not just tech leaders promoting programming in the video. Chris Bosh, a Miami Heat basketballer, says about coding: "I know it can be intimidating, a lot of things are intimidating, but, you know, what isn't?" Code.org was founded by tech entrepreneur Hadi Partovi, an early investor in Facebook, Dropbox and the holiday rental site Airbnb. The organisation aims to address a problem often cited by tech companies - not enough computer science graduates to fill a growing number of programming jobs. The group laments that many schools don't even offer classes in programming. "Our policy is literally to hire as many talented engineers as we can find," Zuckerberg says in the video."The whole limit of the system is there just aren't enough people who are trained and have these skills today." ?" - http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/16250929/gates-zuckerberg-urge-kids-to-code/ --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Child of the Internet born 1983 Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks From doc at vaxen.net Tue Feb 26 20:45:02 2013 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 20:45:02 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1361921977.61686.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1361921977.61686.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512D732E.1010006@vaxen.net> On 2/26/13 5:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ------------------------------ > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:01 PM PST Doc Shipley wrote: > >> My take on the Raspberry Pi is that it offers EXACTLY what it claims to offer. A cheap, accessible ENTRY POINT into programming and/or hardware hacking. > > It seems to be more about high level hardware interfacing then hardware hacking in the purest sense - chip level interfacing. Building or modifying a sbc, even a very rudimentary one, from discrete parts is more of what I would expect, and what I did expect when I first heard of it. Or being able to add some sort of functionality, etc. Granted. As I said, an accessible *entry point* into hacking. My first foray into hot rods was a carburetor swap, not a full engine build. I'd never have finished a motor if I'd jumped right into the deep end. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 26 20:45:27 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:45:27 -0700 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Earl Evans writes: > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the > good text. Try setting your baud rate to 300 and see if it still happens. If so, then you have a hardware problem. If not, then it's as suspected elsewhere in this thread -- the emulated machine is feeding the VT100 faster than it can accept the data. The VT100 doesn't need padd characters IIRC (VT05 and VT52 definitely do), but it uses a signalling scheme to tell the host that it's internal buffer is full. This signalling scheme can be either in the hardware signalling (DTR/CTS) or it can be XON/XOFF (DC1/DC3) control characters in the data stream. Relevant manuals for VT100 are linked here: Under Windows, the default settings of a com port are not set to use any flow control. I was recently generating ESC sequence laden files for my Tektronix 4205 terminal on my PC and sending them to the COM3: port with "copy foo.dat com3:" and the Tek was losing data and garbling commands until I configured both the terminal and the COM port to use the same flow control signalling. Then everything worked properly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 20:49:59 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 18:49:59 -0800 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface Message-ID: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> Subject line says it all -- I picked up a-nearly- complete (and very very extremely dirty and full of mousedetritus) SWTPC 6800 but I'm missing the MP-S serial interface (which will eventually be necessary to doanything too useful with it once I've given the rest of the machine a good soak). Anyone have one going spare or have any leads? Thanksas always, Josh From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 21:02:55 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 03:02:55 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 27 February 2013 01:48, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > > [massive snip] > >> *The Mindset List for the Class of 2016* >> >> For this generation of entering college students, born in 1994, Kurt >> Cobain, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Richard Nixon and John Wayne Gacy >> have always been dead. >> > [massive snip II, the Snippening] > > /me high-fives Liam :?D Glad to be of service. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 21:46:15 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 03:46:15 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6EACD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <512D32A0.9050203@gmail.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6EACD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On 27 February 2013 01:49, Ian King wrote: > > I have Linux and Plan 9 running on mine. I particularly like playing with > Plan 9, and the distribution that's been created works great on the RPi - > I don't have to fight device compatibility when my goal is to play with > the OS. It's also really cool to completely change the device's > personality by plugging in another SD card. This is the perfect platform > to play with some ideas I have about OS design and implementation - I > don't have to bucket someone else's bilge. > > I also agree with you, Dave, that it's a great little project card. I've > been wanting to do a little web-based media server for the living room > that doesn't take a bunch of room or power, and a RPi running Linux seems > perfect - once I'm done playing with it. But then I'll just buy another > one for play purposes. :-) -- Ian K7PDP I say! I had no idea that Plan 9 ran on the Raspi. That /is/ interesting. Thanks for the info! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 26 21:49:08 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:49:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512D3AC8.1030002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130226194711.W52666@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 26 Feb 2013, Liam Proven wrote: > live in space and have a Dynabook containing the entire Hitch-hiker's > Guide to the Galaxy in their pockets - kids today haven't HEARD of it. It is HISTORY. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 22:06:12 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 04:06:12 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130227015321.GC17315@thangorodrim.de> References: <20130227015321.GC17315@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 27 Feb 2013 03:50, "Alexander Schreiber" wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:50:07PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 26 February 2013 00:50, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > > It looks like some sort of AROS distro might be an option as well. > > > > Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that. > > > > Yes, the AROS team are working on an ARM version, but AFAIK, at the > > moment, it can only run loaded as an application running under ARM > > Linux with X.11 or possibly under QEMU. It cannot yet actually boot on > > ARM hardware. > > > > Given that the Rpi struggles a bit with graphical Linux anyway, it's > > not really an alternative at the moment. > > > > But if or when they ever do produce a native-booting version, that > > will indeed be an option. AROS is small, slim and fast compared to > > modern x86 OSs - although it's relatively feature-poor, and like the > > AmigaOS 3 that it seeks to replicate, it has no VM, no memory > > protection, no user security or anything. It does have a TCP/IP stack > > and Web clients, though.] > > > > At the moment, TTBOMK, there are 4 OSs that run on Rpi: > > > > * Linux, obviously, as used on 99% of Pis > > * RISC OS - a feature-complete port, but so far lacking graphics > > acceleration etc. > > There is also Plan9, but I haven't tested that yet. I found out about that this evening, from this thread! > > * Preliminary just-about-booting ports of NetBSD and FreeBSD > > NetBSD is quite a bit further along than "just-about-booting". It boots, > supports USB, the network adapter and even enough of the graphics to run > X via framebuffer console. It seems to be pretty stable - I've been running > one of the development versions on one of my Raspberries for 2+ weeks now, > most of the time occupied with building stuff from pkgsrc. Yes, NetBSD is > rather slow on it - partly because it doesn't yet support DMA for USB, > so there is plenty of room for improvement. But it works ;-) I am happy to hear this & apologize for my inadvertent disinformation. - L From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 22:16:19 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:16:19 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130227014544.GB17315@thangorodrim.de> References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> <20130227014544.GB17315@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 8:45 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > The Internet exists and these days, that is something that is pretty much > assumed as a given fact. Besides, where did you _get_ your Raspberry? Don't > tell me you mailed Farnell (or whoever sold it to you) a filled out order > form via snail mail. ;-) I understand the point you are trying to make here, but just to toss out a see-it-can-be-done story, my first Pi was purchased over the counter at MCM Electronics in Dayton (a US distributor). They have a will-call number, so you can call them on the phone and pick up your order 3 hours later (after they pull it and print out all the paperwork). So the Internet was not invoked in the purchase of _my_ Pi. -ethan From wilson at dbit.com Tue Feb 26 22:37:39 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:37:39 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130227043739.GA11552@dbit.dbit.com> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 09:08:44PM -0500, allison wrote: >One that most users would want is a emulation of some mass storage >device like DECtape or RX02, or >maybe RK05 (or 5F). This is the most often needed item, [...] I've been working on that, but it seems silly to finish with all these other PDP-8 I/O projects popping up and getting Actual Results. Might still finish it for my own use though (too much $$$ blown not to). My scheme (largely just on paper but I've done prototype PCBs for several subassemblies and a whole design for a related PDP-11 project) is for a posi/negi interface with an XMOS CPU to hack the bus protocol and handle IOTs, FTDI VNC2 for I/O (to SD cards and/or USB flash drives), plus a tiny daughterboard for F-RAM to emulate the RS08 (TSS/8!!!). John Wilson D Bit From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 26 22:54:36 2013 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 04:54:36 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512D732E.1010006@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6F420@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> On 2/26/13 6:45 PM, "Doc Shipley" wrote: >On 2/26/13 5:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 2:01 PM PST Doc Shipley wrote: >> >>> My take on the Raspberry Pi is that it offers EXACTLY what it claims >>>to offer. A cheap, accessible ENTRY POINT into programming and/or >>>hardware hacking. >> >> It seems to be more about high level hardware interfacing then >>hardware hacking in the purest sense - chip level interfacing. Building >>or modifying a sbc, even a very rudimentary one, from discrete parts is >>more of what I would expect, and what I did expect when I first heard of >>it. Or being able to add some sort of functionality, etc. > > > Granted. As I said, an accessible *entry point* into hacking. > > My first foray into hot rods was a carburetor swap, not a full engine >build. I'd never have finished a motor if I'd jumped right into the >deep end. > > > Doc > > +1, and I did eventually do a full engine rebuild. (We've talked, I'm pretty sure you have, too.) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 23:26:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:26:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361942772.21806.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 6:45 PM PST Doc Shipley wrote > My first foray into hot rods was a carburetor swap, not a full engine >build. I'd never have finished a motor if I'd jumped right into the >deep end. But an entry point can be a Peter Norton book or something like it or interpreted BASIC. Some people, not you, are disgusted with anything done the old ways. To my knowledge, the only way to create a laboratory quality flat piece of cast iron is with a blasted chisel. Newer ways of doing things need to be persued of course. You have to anticipate critiques on a list such as this. I alluded to a discussion with another lister about a 14 year old kid learning how to fix crt based displays. Is there one person on this list who isn't impressed with such a mind? Same kid taught himself calculus. But maybe it's best to break him of that interest in such old crap. It isn't all twitter, facebook and the rest of the garbage with the youngsters and thank God. Nothing against Rpi, just that it's definition of hardware hacking differs from some. Although I generally have an interest in it, and more so after this discussion, there still remains a void when it comes to learning chip level interfacing, leggo style. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 26 23:47:15 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 23:47:15 -0600 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: whats vat? On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: > >> how much????????? >> > Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. > EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. > But it should still become cheaper.... > > > > >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann** >> wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >>> >>> I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. >>> I designed a quite well working prototype of something that looks like a >>> KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC - but is none of both >>> :-) >>> >>> It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be >>> used >>> as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore >>> mass storage media. >>> To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and >>> tapes to dump: Please don't flame. >>> >>> Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: >>> http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/****omnibus_usb >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and >>> do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those >>> boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I >>> ask everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants >>> and >>> how much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do >>> it >>> and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! >>> >>> I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough >>> interest to do it. >>> >>> If you have any suggestions, let me know! >>> >>> >>> Kind regards, >>> >>> Philipp :-) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann >>> Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten >>> >>> Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover >>> Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 >>> Fax. 0511/3500439 >>> hachti at hachti.de >>> www.tiegeldruck.de >>> >>> UStdID DE 202668329 >>> >>> > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Feb 26 23:50:31 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:50:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1361944231.43806.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 8:16 PM PST Ethan Dicks wrote: >So the Internet was not invoked in the purchase of _my_ Pi. > >-ethan I may have heard about it on this list. But the next mention or the first was in a magazine, Linux Format probably. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 27 00:15:47 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:15:47 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <512DA493.2060804@sydex.com> On 02/26/2013 05:21 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > In freebsd there's a linux compatibility library/package at least for > binaries but I'd be surprised if there wasn't something similar for > compilation. Also freebsd (not openbsd but they're all a family so > port is likely) I used ndis to use the windows driver for a not > supported at the time wireless card in bsd. Not sure if that would be > in line with other drivers as well. I recall using the NDIS2 driver in the early days of the Linksys WMP54GS PCI wireless card on Debian. I'm not sure that OpenBSD has any such thing. However, some years ago, the Linksys USB200 adapter driver was ported from FreeBSD to OpenBSD. Armed with that and the Linux source to the adapter I have now, I think I may be able to make some sense out of things. (Fingers crossed) --Chuck From mardy at pernetics.com Tue Feb 26 21:08:43 2013 From: mardy at pernetics.com (Mardy Marshall) Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 22:08:43 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512BFA09.3000105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Raspberry Pi - The Chia Pet of Personal Computers -Mardy From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Tue Feb 26 22:27:11 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 04:27:11 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <201302270427.r1R4RD0a041187@mx1.ezwind.net> On 26/02/2013, Dave wrote: >I found another for sale here, but I can't really afford to buy it and >ship to the UP.... > >http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Strobe-Graphics-System-Plotter-for-Apple-II-IIe-IIc-IIGS-C/17434649 I agree. I spotted that one as well when searching, but $499 is way too much to pay to get a manual. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 01:15:28 2013 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:15:28 -0700 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <512DB290.40407@gmail.com> On 2/26/2013 7:08 PM, allison wrote: > On 02/26/2013 01:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi folks, > > One that most users would want is a emulation of some mass storage > device like DECtape or RX02, or maybe RK05 (or 5F). This is the > most often needed item, second only to memory but that can be built > as semiconductor. The storage is a disk emulation, then can be > USB but IDE is easier to program on a machine with limited space. > > Of the IO for storage SD, and CF are the two best shots as they have > the simplest and lowest protocol needs. I implemented an RK8E compatible disk controller on my PDP-8 FPGA. The disk controller simulates 4x RK05s on a single SD Card. The SD controller is a large state machine. http://opencores.org/project,pdp8 You would need to 'upgrade' the PLDs with a small FPGA - but I would think that it would be very easy to re-target this to a real Omnibus implementation. The hard part is done. Rob. From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Feb 27 01:20:12 2013 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:20:12 +0100 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <512CE79C.6030809@sydex.com> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> <512CE79C.6030809@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201302270720.r1R7KCmq013961@ls-al.eu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Throw some fabric softener (e.g. "Downy" or "Cling-Free" ) into the wash > and the cover should definitely have some anti-static properties. > Hmm, good thinking! ;) Plus, your keyboard (or whatever) will smell great as well! re, reiche From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 02:41:14 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:41:14 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> Am 27.02.2013 00:03, schrieb Guy Sotomayor: > I should point out that (at least from looking at a couple of the > photos) you're not using Unibus transceivers which are standard on > Omnibus devices. It'll probably work OK on a lightly loaded system > but a PDP-8/e with a double backplane with lots of boards may have > issues. Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was DEC8881 which is a relabelled 7439. The 7438 I used has very similar specifications. As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have chosen the 7438. And it does not make a big difference if the machine is more or less loaded. The load on the drivers is always the same. It's an open collector bus. > > TTFN - Guy > > On Feb 26, 2013, at 3:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: >>> how much????????? >> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at >> approx. EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of >> boards. But it should still become cheaper.... >> >> >> >>> >>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Philipp >>> Hachtmannwrote: >>> >>>> Hi folks, >>>> >>>> I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. >>>> I designed a quite well working prototype of something that >>>> looks like a KL8E for the PDP8 and like a serial port on the PC >>>> - but is none of both :-) >>>> >>>> It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it >>>> could be used as) but as an alternative IO device used to dump >>>> (archive!) and restore mass storage media. To the people who >>>> don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and tapes to >>>> dump: Please don't flame. >>>> >>>> Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: >>>> http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/**omnibus_usb >>>> >>>> >>>> My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and >>>> do a little production run. As I'm currently out of work, >>>> selling those boards could help a bit. I can do it only if I >>>> get enough preorders. So I ask everybody with serious interest >>>> to tell me how many boards he wants and how much he could >>>> spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it and >>>> fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! >>>> >>>> I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's >>>> enough interest to do it. >>>> >>>> If you have any suggestions, let me know! >>>> >>>> >>>> Kind regards, >>>> >>>> Philipp :-) >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, >>>> Spezialit?ten >>>> >>>> Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil >>>> 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de >>>> www.tiegeldruck.de >>>> >>>> UStdID DE 202668329 >>>> >> > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 02:48:26 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:48:26 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512DC85A.2060909@hachti.de> Hi Ethan, > I know this can be a touchy subject with folks that just want to make > one thing and not have an explosion of similar but different purchase > options, but I usually ask if it's possible to get just a bare board. The board and its design are the expensive parts. Not the labor. > I can't afford to spend EUR 250 on anything PDP-8 related right now, Like me... > but if I could get a bare board for a fraction of that and solder my > own, I'd seriously consider it. Impossible for a fraction. I have calculated a bit. EUR 100-120 for the whole device will be possible if I see a perspective to sell 20-25 pieces over time with half of them preordered. Kind regards Philipp From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 02:13:23 2013 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:13:23 +0000 Subject: Qudos MINICHIP / Quickchip ECAD and Ferranti ULA docs In-Reply-To: <512D6096.6040306@philpem.me.uk> References: <512D6096.6040306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:25 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In my long-running tradition of obscure requests... > > Does anyone know if a copy of the Qudos Ltd "MINICHIP" gate array design > tool still exists anywhere? > > This was a CAD tool designed for the BBC Micro (with 6502 Second > Processor) which allowed the machine to be used for the design of > Ferranti ULA gate arrays. > > There was also a similar tool called "Quickchip" for the Acorn > Archimedes ("A440 only" according to page 22 of this: > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Acorn/Brochures/Acorn_APP155_HardwareExpansionsAndSoftware.pdf > ) > > There's some mention of MINICHIP here: > > http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/inf/literature/newsletters//ecn01-20/p002.htm > > http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GzPpAAAAIAAJ&lpg=PA85&ots=sR_gUYkMii&dq=ferranti%20ula9c&pg=PA82#v=onepage > > > I'm also interested in a copy of any documentation on Ferranti ULAs - > databooks, details on the logic cells (specifically the ULA9C series but > ULA5C may also be useful), design software (or documentation thereof) > and so on. Examples: > > Qudos Ltd. - Qudos Logic Array Design Software Manual QED2 (pub. 1986) > > Ferranti - Ferranti ULA Design Manual A/F002 (pub. 1981) > I have a Ferranti quick reference guide circa 1986 in it they refer to the ULAs as DS, R, P or G series (ASIC1) also the VAX software supporting is was called ULACAD Also has a section on the Monochip (ASIC44) an array of transistors and diodes and resistors for custom linear devices Some of the cell layouts are pictured in the databook http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=db+ferranti Dave Caroline ps now almost catalogued all the databooks I have, up to 445 and a few still to do From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 27 03:10:26 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:10:26 -0700 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512DCD82.6030504@brouhaha.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I should point out that (at least from looking at a couple of the > photos) you're not using Unibus transceivers which are standard on > Omnibus devices. It'll probably work OK on a lightly loaded system > but a PDP-8/e with a double backplane with lots of boards may have > issues. Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was DEC8881 which is a > relabelled 7439. I think it must have been more than just relablled; the original 8881 was from a non-7400 Signetics family whose name escapes me at the moment, and may have been binned. The characteristics were somewhat similar to the 7439 but not identical. The edge rate and maximum leakage current are different. They may have binned 7439 parts that met the Omnibus specs, but there's no expectation that an ordinary 7439 (or 7438) would. > The 7438 I used has very similar specifications. > As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have chosen the 7438. > And it does not make a big difference if the machine is more or less > loaded. The load on the drivers is always the same. It's an open > collector bus. The load isn't the same. Unlike modern CMOS parts, the receiver inputs are not especially high-impedance. The receivers do present both DC and AC loading on the bus lines. More receivers presents more loading. The AC loading is often more of an issue than the DC. The bigger problem with using parts that don't meet the DEC specs in heavily loaded systems (Omnibus, Qbus, or Unibus, all of which are similar electrically) is the receiver thresholds and the leakage current. In large systems (multiple backplanes, or in the case of Omnibus, even a full single 20-slot backplane), third-party modules that used receivers with the wrong threshold (including all normal TTL parts) do NOT work reliably, because in a heavily loaded bus asserted signals don't always dip as low as the threshold of normal TTL parts, or don't do so in a timely manner. This can easily be observed on such a system using a 100 Mhz or better oscilliscope (with a slower scope you won't see accurate signal edge waveforms). On a lightly loaded system you can get away with using ordinary TTL receivers and OC buffers. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Feb 27 03:23:52 2013 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (stefan skoglund(agj)) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:23:52 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <1361957032.5112.3.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2013-02-26 klockan 23:47 -0600 skrev Adrian Stoness: > whats vat? > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>> and fix a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! Tax and the German vat is compared with the state-ordinated tax in for example California (what 6 %) rather high. It is a tax on a sellers markup. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 27 03:42:49 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:42:49 -0800 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <59190902-D4DE-4B0F-AC07-D309DDCF09A1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 26, at 9:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann > wrote: >> Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: >> >>> how much????????? >>> >> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at >> approx. >> EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. >> But it should still become cheaper.... > whats vat? VAT == Value Added Tax. Equivalent to our (Canada's) GST. It's where our government got the idea for the GST (the European VAT was a few decades earlier). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 27 04:06:42 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:06:42 -0800 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface In-Reply-To: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> References: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2013 Feb 26, at 6:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Subject line says it all -- I picked up a-nearly- complete (and > very very extremely dirty and full of mousedetritus) SWTPC 6800 but > I'm missing the MP-S serial interface (which will eventually be > necessary to doanything too useful with it once I've given the rest > of the machine a good soak). Anyone have one going spare or have > any leads? > I suppose you'd like an original one, but it's just two chips, you could slap one together. Michael Holley's site has details, including a PC layout, perhaps you've already seen that. I have a SWTPC 6800, but it came with the MP-C. I was thinking of building an MP-S with an additional baud rate clock, to get a higher speed than the MP-C. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 04:08:16 2013 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 04:08:16 -0600 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <59190902-D4DE-4B0F-AC07-D309DDCF09A1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <59190902-D4DE-4B0F-AC07-D309DDCF09A1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: do foreners have to pay it? On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2013 Feb 26, at 9:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann >> wrote: >> >>> Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: >>> >>> how much????????? >>>> >>>> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. >>> EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. >>> But it should still become cheaper.... >>> >> > whats vat? >> > > VAT == Value Added Tax. Equivalent to our (Canada's) GST. It's where our > government got the idea for the GST (the European VAT was a few decades > earlier). > > From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 27 05:37:19 2013 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:37:19 +0100 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> References: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> Message-ID: <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> On 27-feb-2013 2:35, Diane Bruce wrote: > The VT100 could not keep up with full speed 9600 baud. The back of > the VT100 manual has a table of how many nul chars you need per baud rate. Well, I have never owned or used a (real) PDP-series system. (I was also born long after their heyday.) - MG From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 27 06:13:14 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 07:13:14 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <20130227043739.GA11552@dbit.dbit.com> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> <20130227043739.GA11552@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <512DF85A.90109@verizon.net> On 02/26/2013 11:37 PM, John Wilson wrote: > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 09:08:44PM -0500, allison wrote: >> One that most users would want is a emulation of some mass storage >> device like DECtape or RX02, or >> maybe RK05 (or 5F). This is the most often needed item, [...] > I've been working on that, but it seems silly to finish with all these > other PDP-8 I/O projects popping up and getting Actual Results. Might > still finish it for my own use though (too much $$$ blown not to). > > My scheme (largely just on paper but I've done prototype PCBs for > several subassemblies and a whole design for a related PDP-11 project) > is for a posi/negi interface with an XMOS CPU to hack the bus protocol > and handle IOTs, FTDI VNC2 for I/O (to SD cards and/or USB flash > drives), plus a tiny daughterboard for F-RAM to emulate the RS08 > (TSS/8!!!). > > John Wilson > D Bit > I have a proto board I built that uses two port addresses and acts like a disk but the parts are static rams (8bit wide 512k x2). One port is read/write, the other is an address (high 12 bits) and the low 7 bits are just a counter. When you set the address it clears the counter and when you read or write a word the counter advances. the collective result is 19 bits of address for the ram. The code has to insure you only read or write 128 words. Extremely simple. Its volatile but a small battery solves that. The code has no skip checks as the "disk" is far faster than the pdpd-8 and always ready to read or write. I've been meaning (time as I'm busy) to build a card that take an IDE drive or CF in 16bit mode and maps the 12 bits into a 16 bit word for data as a disk. Storage is a big pdp-8 hardware limitation, memory is often short or hard to get, IO like console serial or a simple parallel (PC parallel for printers) is another. All of these can be addressed with common modern parts. The caveat is to keep the result comparable with standard IO (serial) and disk systems (RS08 or ?) lacking that the interface simple as most PDP-8 software only allows a page maybe two for a driver (page is 128 words). I'm afraid that USB driver and protocol is big enough to eat far more than a pdp-8 page. Allison From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 06:18:21 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:18:21 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <59190902-D4DE-4B0F-AC07-D309DDCF09A1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <512DF98D.3040100@hachti.de> 1. In Germany it's currently 19%. 2. I'm quite sure that foreigners don't have to pay it - but they then have to deal with customs. When I order something from outside EU, I have to pay the 19% VAT at the customs office when receiving it. Kind regards Philipp Am 27.02.2013 11:08, schrieb Adrian Stoness: > do foreners have to pay it? > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2013 Feb 26, at 9:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: >>>> >>>> how much????????? >>>>> >>>>> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. >>>> EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. >>>> But it should still become cheaper.... >>>> >>> >> whats vat? >>> >> >> VAT == Value Added Tax. Equivalent to our (Canada's) GST. It's where our >> government got the idea for the GST (the European VAT was a few decades >> earlier). >> >> -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 06:33:43 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:33:43 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <512DFD27.9080504@hachti.de> Hi Allison, > No flame intended but... But? > USB is the least useful interface for PDP-8 as it's all driver dependent and > PDP-8 is slow. I think its a wonderful interface the way I currently use it. The FTDI chip is recognized as an USB serial converter. In Windows you need FTDI's standard driver, Linux supports the chip via it's mainline ftdio_sio driver. Plug it in and it works. My current interface is designed to do direct transfers between the PC and the PDP8 without too much software issues. And that's exactly what my solution provides. There's no more simpler interface than the console TTY interface on the PDP8 which is implemented on that side of the wire. > must USB devices do not fit into the 12 bit form well. Console TTY is 8 bit only as well. > One that most users would want is a emulation of some mass storage device like > DECtape or RX02, or > maybe RK05 (or 5F). This is the most often needed item, Yes? The board is NOT (!!) intended to replace any (probably missing) vintage hardware. If you need an RK05 on your pdp8: Use an RK05! It is for those who have RK05, DECtape etc. in quantities and want to be able to make quick backups and restores to that *real* media. Emulating a RK05 can be fun. But it's quite another approach. For making frequent backups and restores, an SD card solution is considered quite unpracticable - at least by me. > second only to memory > but that can be > built as semiconductor. As above: I'm currently not talking about building replacements for real big iron. If you need core: Simply throw in some core memory. > To dump stuff from PDP-8 to PC a serial line is best suited and most economical > to implement even if the host is > crippled and only has USB (use a USB to serial adaptor). Oh, you seem to have missed the central point. Yes, a serial line is ideal. But slow! The board I designed is a plug-in replacement for the PDP8's serial interface. It is software compatible and can be plugged in without any changes in software. Most of the software (except stuff like dumprest that makes assumptions on the expected data rate) runs with it without *ANY* programming involved. And on the PC side it presents itself as exactly one of those USB to serial converters. The only difference is that it's lightning fast and does not loose data when the receiver stops fetching data. Kind regards Philipp > Allison > > >> It ist not meant as a console terminal replacement (which it could be used as) >> but as an alternative IO device used to dump (archive!) and restore mass >> storage media. >> To the people who don't know the problems of having MASSES of disks and tapes >> to dump: Please don't flame. >> >> Pictures and some more information can be found on my website: >> http://pdp8.hachti.de?gallery/omnibus_usb >> >> My intention is to design an improved (probably full height) version and do a >> little production run. As I'm currently out of work, selling those boards >> could help a bit. I can do it only if I get enough preorders. So I ask >> everybody with serious interest to tell me how many boards he wants and how >> much he could spend. Based on that feedback I'll decide if I can do it and fix >> a price. It won't be cheap - but very helpful and cool! >> >> I'd really like to make some more. It would be great if there's enough >> interest to do it. >> >> If you have any suggestions, let me know! >> >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Philipp :-) >> -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 06:38:51 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:38:51 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512DF85A.90109@verizon.net> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D6AAC.1050008@verizon.net> <20130227043739.GA11552@dbit.dbit.com> <512DF85A.90109@verizon.net> Message-ID: <512DFE5B.6010603@hachti.de> > I'm afraid that USB driver and protocol is big enough to eat far more than a > pdp-8 page. Read my last post from just a minute ago. There is NO NO NO!!!!! special software involved on the PDP8 side. It behaves exactly like a console interface. With the skip instructions, interrupt flag, interrupt enable flip flop and everything. Only the behaviour of the teletype transmitter flag is slightly different. But normal software won't detect that (you cannot set the printer flag if the FIFO is opened and blocked on PC side. That's all). Regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 07:02:38 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:02:38 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512DCD82.6030504@brouhaha.com> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <512DCD82.6030504@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <512E03EE.70707@hachti.de> > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was DEC8881 which is a >> relabelled 7439. > > I think it must have been more than just relablled; the original 8881 was from a > non-7400 Signetics family whose name escapes me at the moment, and may have been > binned. Might be. As I remember the Signetics TTLs had different pinouts compared to the TI 74xx series. And now compare the 7438 and the 7439's pinouts: The 7439 doesn't only have a better drive performance (60mA) than the 7438 - its gates are also in the "Signetics order". I have seen 7439 on a DEC board. Soldered where other boards have 8881. > The characteristics were somewhat similar to the 7439 but not identical. > The edge rate and maximum leakage current are different. They may have binned > 7439 parts that met the Omnibus specs, but there's no expectation that an > ordinary 7439 (or 7438) would. >> The 7438 I used has very similar specifications. >> As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have chosen the 7438. >> And it does not make a big difference if the machine is more or less loaded. >> The load on the drivers is always the same. It's an open collector bus. > > The load isn't the same. Unlike modern CMOS parts, the receiver inputs are not > especially high-impedance. The receivers do present both DC and AC loading on > the bus lines. More receivers presents more loading. The AC loading is often > more of an issue than the DC. That discussion is a completely theoretical thing. Let's fix some facts: - I have built working hardware - I use the "wrong" drivers. - The real drivers are not available anymore. ===>> I find it's a good compromise to use the 7438 as a replacement. I could easily change the design to use real 8881 drivers. For me it would be fine - I still have some of them. But I want to supply the board to other people who might not have those chips. I want to use current hardware for that current project. The spare 8881 should be kept for repairs on old hardware. And by the way I'm always open to suggestions for improvements. But only complaining is not exactly that productive. >> do NOT work reliably, because in a heavily loaded bus asserted > signals don't always dip as low as the threshold of normal TTL parts, or don't > do so in a timely manner. > On a lightly loaded system you can get away with using ordinary TTL receivers > and OC buffers. I'll try it out with my lab8/e: Full lenght backplane, completely packed with modules and a cable to a pdp8/a expansion box which contains some more core, a third party multi serial card, my selfmade joystick interface and others. If that works reliably, further discussion is worthless. On the other hand: Most pdp8/e systems are not fully loaded... The last consequence would be: Two adjustable reference voltages, two comparators for each bus line. That results in adjustable schmitt-trigger inputs. But - weren't you complaining about the drivers? The 7438 are used as drivers in my design. They pull the lines low. That's all they do. As receivers I use 74AC05 open collector inverters. Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From db at db.net Wed Feb 27 08:33:34 2013 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:33:34 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> References: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20130227143334.GA78934@night.db.net> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:37:19PM +0100, MG wrote: > On 27-feb-2013 2:35, Diane Bruce wrote: > > The VT100 could not keep up with full speed 9600 baud. The back of > > the VT100 manual has a table of how many nul chars you need per baud rate. > > Well, I have never owned or used a (real) PDP-series system. (I was > also born long after their heyday.) *laugh* The important thing here is to solve the problem, not worry about age differences. ;) I do have a copy of a VT-100 manual downstairs somewhere, and I do recall it stating number of nuls per baud rate to insert or suggesting the use of flow control. I am sure a copy of the manual is online if anyone is really curious. I do remember being very disapointed at the time I first read this some time (*cough*) ago, as the framebuffers of a modern PC were still a few years away. We all treasured serial speed, as that was the way things were done. Having a terminal claiming it could run 9.6K was nice but disapointing it could not actually keep up. Heh the wikipedia article shows it was running an 8080 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_VT102 I owned one working Volker-Craig terminal and several more parts ones. http://vt100.net/volker-craig/ I gave them all to a member of this list. It seemed to run a tad faster than the real VT100. I seem to recall spotting a Z-80 on that board. > > - MG - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 27 08:35:52 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:35:52 -0600 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130227143552.GB31166@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/27/2013 at 12:53AM -0800), Earl Evans wrote: > Hi all, > > Regarding the comments on baud rate and flow control - still doesn't make > sense to me why the VT100 would not exhibit the error with a real PDP-11 > (at 9600 baud), but does do it with the emulated PDP-11. The info is coming > at the terminal at the same rate - why would the behavior be different? Although the bit rate for each character may be the same, the delay between characters is likely to be greater on the real PDP-11 than the (faster) emulated one. So, it is the character rate and not bit rate that matters. The faster character rate doesn't give the terminal enough time to unload its receive queue and process the characters (and escape sequences) like it has with the real PDP-11. Without flow control, you evenutally overrun the terminal's receive queue and start dropping characters and screwing up escape sequences. -- Chris Elmquist From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 08:51:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:51:22 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <0FBF292E-8E31-4724-8FF9-8BB327E51EBD@gmail.com> On Feb 26, 2013, at 8:21 PM, "Sam O'nella" wrote: > In freebsd there's a linux compatibility library/package at least for binaries but I'd be surprised if there wasn't something similar for compilation. Also freebsd (not openbsd but they're all a family so port is likely) I used ndis to use the windows driver for a not supported at the time wireless card in bsd. Not sure if that would be in line with other drivers as well. That's an emulation for application binaries; it basically mimics the syscall interface of Linux (or, with other modules, other BSDs or older kernel versions where the API has changed). It's fine for applications, but not so useful for kernel drivers, unfortunately. Unless I'm thinking of something different than you are. - Dave From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 27 08:58:10 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:58:10 -0500 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface In-Reply-To: References: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b6501ce14fa$dc674ce0$9535e6a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Brent Hilpert wrote > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface > > On 2013 Feb 26, at 6:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Subject line says it all -- I picked up a-nearly- complete (and > > very very extremely dirty and full of mousedetritus) SWTPC 6800 but > > I'm missing the MP-S serial interface (which will eventually be > > necessary to doanything too useful with it once I've given the rest > > of the machine a good soak). Anyone have one going spare or have > > any leads? > > > > I suppose you'd like an original one, but it's just two chips, you > could slap one together. > > Michael Holley's site has details, including a PC layout, perhaps > you've already seen that. > > I have a SWTPC 6800, but it came with the MP-C. I was thinking of > building an MP-S with an additional baud rate clock, to get a higher > speed than the MP-C. I may have a spare MP-C. You do know that SWTBUG/MKBUG will operate an MP-C in slot 1? You don't "need" an MP-S to get your 6800 up. Bill S. From slandon110 at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 10:35:56 2013 From: slandon110 at gmail.com (Steven Landon) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:35:56 -0500 Subject: For Sale: Macintosh SE/30 and Apple IIGS Monitors Message-ID: <512E35EC.7020808@gmail.com> Hate to part with this one, but it never gets used Mac SE/30 68MB RAM 80MB HDD Ethernet Card Apple Extended Keyboard II Spare 2GB HDD so you can upgrade it. This is one of the models that will run A/UX and NetBSD $300 shipped insured via USPS Priority mail. Also have 15khz Apple IIGS monitors for $50 shipped each From earl at retrobits.com Wed Feb 27 02:53:38 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 00:53:38 -0800 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, Regarding the comments on baud rate and flow control - still doesn't make sense to me why the VT100 would not exhibit the error with a real PDP-11 (at 9600 baud), but does do it with the emulated PDP-11. The info is coming at the terminal at the same rate - why would the behavior be different? - Earl On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article sjjpqJ-NS0g at mail.gmail.com>, > Earl Evans writes: > > > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with > the > > good text. > > Try setting your baud rate to 300 and see if it still happens. > > If so, then you have a hardware problem. > > If not, then it's as suspected elsewhere in this thread -- the > emulated machine is feeding the VT100 faster than it can accept the > data. > > The VT100 doesn't need padd characters IIRC (VT05 and VT52 definitely > do), but it uses a signalling scheme to tell the host that it's > internal buffer is full. This signalling scheme can be either in the > hardware signalling (DTR/CTS) or it can be XON/XOFF (DC1/DC3) control > characters in the data stream. > > Relevant manuals for VT100 are linked here: > > > Under Windows, the default settings of a com port are not set to use > any flow control. I was recently generating ESC sequence laden files > for my Tektronix 4205 terminal on my PC and sending them to the COM3: > port with "copy foo.dat com3:" and the Tek was losing data and > garbling commands until I configured both the terminal and the COM > port to use the same flow control signalling. Then everything worked > properly. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 27 04:02:34 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:02:34 +0000 (WET) Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 Message-ID: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > The VT100 doesn't need padd characters IIRC (VT05 and VT52 definitely > do), but it uses a signalling scheme to tell the host that it's > internal buffer is full. This signalling scheme can be either in the > hardware signalling (DTR/CTS) or it can be XON/XOFF (DC1/DC3) control > characters in the data stream. > According to my VT102 manual, DTR is only turned off when the terminal is offline or performing a line disconnect. It doesn't seem to turn off DTR or any other signal in response to the input buffer becoming full. Under "Input Buffer Overflow Prevention", it goes on to say that there are three methods of input buffer overflow prevention and lists XON/XOFF, fill characters and low speed operation. A table shows the requirement for fill characters for various functions at various baud rates. It suggests that all functions require at least one fill character (null) at 9600 baud, even when not in smooth scroll mode. Regards, Peter Coghlan From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 27 04:13:42 2013 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:13:42 +0000 (WET) Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 Message-ID: <01OQOMITQ8WO006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > OK, I'm stumped. I'd like to use a real VT100 as a terminal with an > > emulated PDP-11 running RT11. > > > > When the VT100 is connected to a real PDP-11, it works fine. When connected > > to the emulated PDP-11, garbage characters begin to appear on the screen > > when, say, doing a DIR command. > > > > The garbage always starts in exactly the same place in the DIR listing. > > After that, garbage characters (grey squares) become interspersed with the > > good text. > > Too high a data rate without flow control. Either enable Xon/Xoff on > both ends or > use hardware control (most PCs do not support that correctly). > > If all else fails set the baud rated to something slower till the > problem goes away. > My VT102 manual describes the grey hatched squares as the substitute character and says they are displayed when the input buffer is full and characters are lost. It also suggests that hardware flow is not available and the only solutions are XON/XOFF, fill characters (nulls) or low speed operation. I strongly suspect the VT100 behaves the same. Appendix E "VT102/VT100 DIFFERENCES" doesn't suggest otherwise although it does say that the VT102 uses a different numbers of fill characters. Regards, Peter Coghlan From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 27 11:13:06 2013 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:13:06 -0600 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface In-Reply-To: <0b6501ce14fa$dc674ce0$9535e6a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> <0b6501ce14fa$dc674ce0$9535e6a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20130227171306.GI31166@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/27/2013 at 09:58AM -0500), Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > I have a SWTPC 6800, but it came with the MP-C. I was thinking of > > building an MP-S with an additional baud rate clock, to get a higher > > speed than the MP-C. > > I may have a spare MP-C. You do know that SWTBUG/MKBUG will operate > an MP-C in slot 1? You don't "need" an MP-S to get your 6800 up. yes-- as I noted to Josh in a private message, SWTBUG would be required to run the MP-S as the console. The original SWTPC 6800 design used MIKBUG and the console interface was an MP-C. SWTBUG was released later as an upgrade ROM and it could support either an MP-C (original equipment) or an MP-S (upgrade) as the console. So, you really need to confirm which monitor ROM the system has to decide what you can or need to do for the console interface. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 11:27:40 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:27:40 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:02 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> The VT100 doesn't need padd characters IIRC (VT05 and VT52 definitely >> do), but it uses a signalling scheme to tell the host that it's >> internal buffer is full. This signalling scheme can be either in the >> hardware signalling (DTR/CTS) or it can be XON/XOFF (DC1/DC3) control >> characters in the data stream. >> > > According to my VT102 manual, DTR is only turned off when the terminal is > offline or performing a line disconnect. It doesn't seem to turn off DTR or > any other signal in response to the input buffer becoming full. Hardware flow control in the DEC world (and many other places) is commonly RTS/CTS (Request To Send, Clear To Send). DTR (Data Terminal Ready) is, as you say, for indicating the device (terminal) is operational and on-line. I won't say nobody has ever done something "creative" with that signal, but IME, when you power up a terminal or when you open a serial port on a computer, DTR asserts after all the initialization stuff is done and the device is good to go. > Under "Input Buffer Overflow Prevention", it goes on to say that there are > three methods of input buffer overflow prevention and lists XON/XOFF, fill > characters and low speed operation. Yep. > A table shows the requirement for fill characters for various functions at > various baud rates. It suggests that all functions require at least one fill > character (null) at 9600 baud, even when not in smooth scroll mode. Back in the day when I used real DEC terminals 8-10 hrs a day, every day, we ran them at 9600 baud, jump scroll, no fill chars, with no problems, but we were feeding them from a slow VAX (11/730 or 11/750) or a medium-grade PDP-11 (11/24 or 11/34, usually). There's no way we were saturating the line with that equipment, in that environment. Where we _did_ have problems is 9600 baud connections for file transfer between machines. Notably, we had to ensure flow-control (hardware or software) was on and working to successfully Kermit files between our MicroVAX and 11/750 (we had Emulex serial cards on our 11/750 with DMA capability on transmission but I don't think there was even a 3-char silo on input - one received character, one interrupt to handle. Humans didn't type fast enough to cause problems, but Kermit could spew plenty fast enough to make either end choke). -ethan From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 11:37:09 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 09:37:09 -0800 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface In-Reply-To: <20130227171306.GI31166@n0jcf.net> References: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> <0b6501ce14fa$dc674ce0$9535e6a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <20130227171306.GI31166@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <512E4445.2020006@gmail.com> On 2/27/2013 9:13 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (02/27/2013 at 09:58AM -0500), Bill Sudbrink wrote: >>> I have a SWTPC 6800, but it came with the MP-C. I was thinking of >>> building an MP-S with an additional baud rate clock, to get a higher >>> speed than the MP-C. >> I may have a spare MP-C. You do know that SWTBUG/MKBUG will operate >> an MP-C in slot 1? You don't "need" an MP-S to get your 6800 up. > yes-- as I noted to Josh in a private message, SWTBUG would be required > to run the MP-S as the console. The original SWTPC 6800 design used > MIKBUG and the console interface was an MP-C. SWTBUG was released later > as an upgrade ROM and it could support either an MP-C (original equipment) > or an MP-S (upgrade) as the console. > > So, you really need to confirm which monitor ROM the system has to decide > what you can or need to do for the console interface. > > Chris Yeah, I did do a bit of research before posting here :). My 6800's fitted with the SWTBUG 1.0 ROM, and I'm pretty sure it had an MP-S in it at some point (if the documentation it came with is to be believed). Either would work for me, though -- good point. (Or as Brent suggested I could build my own -- I'd like to see if I can find an original first, though.) Thanks! - Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 11:45:20 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:45:20 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AEA07AC-4939-467B-A4EC-99FD2DE445C5@gmail.com> On Feb 27, 2013, at 3:53 AM, Earl Evans wrote: > Hi all, > > Regarding the comments on baud rate and flow control - still doesn't make > sense to me why the VT100 would not exhibit the error with a real PDP-11 > (at 9600 baud), but does do it with the emulated PDP-11. The info is coming > at the terminal at the same rate - why would the behavior be different? That would be true if the real PDP-11 sent characters at full throttle all the time, but in general it does not. There's generally an inter- character delay. On a faster system, the data can come out full-blast and swamp the receiver if it can't keep up with the byte data rate. In other words, the serial hardware is totally capable of handling 9600 baud, but the software managing the display isn't capable of handling 960 characters per second sustained. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 11:58:54 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:58:54 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5AEA07AC-4939-467B-A4EC-99FD2DE445C5@gmail.com> References: <5AEA07AC-4939-467B-A4EC-99FD2DE445C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:45 PM, David Riley wrote: > In other words, the serial hardware is totally capable of handling 9600 > baud, but the software managing the display isn't capable of handling > 960 characters per second sustained. Well put. -ethan From ats at offog.org Wed Feb 27 12:00:51 2013 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:00:51 +0000 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> (Philipp Hachtmann's message of "Tue, 26 Feb 2013 19:31:58 +0100") References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> Message-ID: Philipp Hachtmann writes: > I'd like to introduce my newly designed Omnibus-USB interface. That's awesome. :) Very nice work. I've been thinking for a few weeks about building a fast data-dumping device for rescuing data (e.g. large disk images) from classic machines that just looks like a printer. It looks like the FT240X would make that really easy... -- Adam Sampson From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 27 12:13:44 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:13:44 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <512E4CD8.40003@verizon.net> > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 5:02 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> The VT100 doesn't need padd characters IIRC (VT05 and VT52 definitely >>> do), but it uses a signalling scheme to tell the host that it's >>> internal buffer is full. This signalling scheme can be either in the >>> hardware signalling (DTR/CTS) or it can be XON/XOFF (DC1/DC3) control >>> characters in the data stream. >>> >> According to my VT102 manual, DTR is only turned off when the terminal is >> offline or performing a line disconnect. It doesn't seem to turn off DTR or >> any other signal in response to the input buffer becoming full. > Hardware flow control in the DEC world (and many other places) is commonly > RTS/CTS (Request To Send, Clear To Send). > Generally DEC systems used xon/off. Cable lengths can be a factor as well as bad grounds between units (term and system) but cables have to be long for that to take effect (50ft or more). Also the Vt100 was 8080 (later Vt102 was 8085) clones used everything on earth. The Vt100 had little hardware help for IO and video so the highest cost operation was anything that did screen controls (ansi escapes) as they were multiple cars and if the buffer was flodded before the escape was processed havoc would reign. There two tricks to help, one was slow the baud rate to 4800 or 2400, also adding nulls could help save for they could still crush the buffer. The other was tho switch the terminal to Vt52 mode (assuming the apps could handle that). Vt52 processing had lower overhead though they were less versatile. with all that said, it also relies on the PC/platform hosting the emulation where if that doesn't support hardware flow control then you plain can't use it. Same for software flow control especially if the host has latency in its response and also has large buffers.. That means by time the emulated 11 gets the xoff the terminal may be crushed. Allison From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 27 12:13:41 2013 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:13:41 -0500 Subject: Looking for: SWTPC MP-S Serial Interface In-Reply-To: <512E4445.2020006@gmail.com> References: <512D7457.5010702@gmail.com> <0b6501ce14fa$dc674ce0$9535e6a0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <20130227171306.GI31166@n0jcf.net> <512E4445.2020006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0ba601ce1516$2cc14310$8643c930$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Yeah, I did do a bit of research before posting here :). My > 6800's fitted with the SWTBUG 1.0 ROM, and I'm pretty sure > it had an MP-S in it at some point (if the documentation it > came with is to be believed). Either would work for me, > though -- good point. (Or as Brent suggested I could build > my own -- I'd like to see if I can find an original first, > though.) Ok. I'll look through my stuff tonight. I'm pretty sure that I acquired a spare MP-C as I started to accumulate SWTPc bits. It will be untested, maybe hacked a bit. Bill S. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 27 12:44:46 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:44:46 -0700 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512E03EE.70707@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <512DCD82.6030504@brouhaha.com> <512E03EE.70707@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512E541E.9070308@brouhaha.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > And by the way I'm always open to suggestions for improvements. But > only complaining is not exactly that productive. My comments were not intended as complaints. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 27 13:21:23 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 12:21:23 -0700 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> References: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 27-feb-2013 2:35, Diane Bruce wrote: > The VT100 could not keep up with full speed 9600 baud. The back of > the VT100 manual has a table of how many nul chars you need per baud rate. My mistake; I didn't realize the VT100 also had fill character requirements, but you're right. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 27 13:24:06 2013 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:24:06 -0800 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 27, 2013, at 12:41 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Am 27.02.2013 00:03, schrieb Guy Sotomayor: >> I should point out that (at least from looking at a couple of the >> photos) you're not using Unibus transceivers which are standard on >> Omnibus devices. It'll probably work OK on a lightly loaded system >> but a PDP-8/e with a double backplane with lots of boards may have >> issues. > Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was DEC8881 which is a relabelled 7439. The 7438 I used has very similar specifications. > As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have chosen the 7438. > And it does not make a big difference if the machine is more or less loaded. The load on the drivers is always the same. It's an open collector bus. The 8881 is *not* a relabeled 7439. Yes, it's open collector but the current sinking capabilities are pretty high (80ma?). It's also what's called a "trapezoidal" driver which has a controlled slew rate (rise/fall times) to minimize reflections on the bus. The drivers are optimized to drive into a bus terminated by a 180ohm resistor to +5 and a 390ohm resistor to ground. The receivers are also specialized and are not quite at the "standard" TTL levels for greater noise immunity and minimal input leakage. The Unibus interface chips (that were also used on Omnibus) are: DS8640 quad bus receivers DS8641 quad bus transceivers DS8837 hex bus receivers DS8881 quad bus drivers There were older versions but these are pretty much what everyone used for Unibus and Omnibus systems. As I said, you can probably get away with it for small configurations but I would expect some issues with larger systems/configurations. TTFN - Guy From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 13:57:58 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:57:58 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> On Feb 27, 2013, at 2:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Feb 27, 2013, at 12:41 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was DEC8881 which is a relabelled 7439. The 7438 I used has very similar specifications. >> As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have chosen the 7438. >> And it does not make a big difference if the machine is more or less loaded. The load on the drivers is always the same. It's an open collector bus. > > The 8881 is *not* a relabeled 7439. Yes, it's open collector but the current sinking capabilities are pretty high (80ma?). It's also what's called a "trapezoidal" driver which has a controlled slew rate (rise/fall times) to minimize reflections on the bus. The drivers are optimized to drive into a bus terminated by a 180ohm resistor to +5 and a 390ohm resistor to ground. I'm not sure any but the last National Semiconductor transceivers were actual trapezoidal drivers. That requires an integrator on the output driver. My impression from the datasheets of the earlier DEC chips is that they're binned for a particular max slew rate, which is really all you need. By the time the true trapezoidal transceivers came out (like the DS3662), the silicon was both cheaper and faster, necessitating the rate limiting. The current sink is also designated to be a maximum of 70mA by DEC standards, but this is presumably a momentary sink for driving the bus load capacitance low; the maximum sustained current would be about 28mA (5v / 180 ohms) plus the relatively small amount contributed by driver/receiver leakages (another few mA if all the other bus participants are following the same rules). There are also rules about the minimum voltage when driving zero at 70mA, which many modern FETs meet quite handily. There are a lot of discrete or paired FETs that should do the job of the driver quite adequately; the receiver is usually best done with a high-speed comparator, which unfortunately tend not to be particularly cheap. The best one I've found for modern devices is the MAX9108, which fits the required 35ns propagation delay; it has TTL outputs (not great for 3.3v logic, but you can use glue) and costs about $1 per gate ($.50 per in >= 100 qty). That's what I have planned for my QBUS board, whenever it may happen. If anyone happens to find a suitable comparator that is cheaper, I'm all ears (don't forget about input leakage and capacitance constraints!). > The receivers are also specialized and are not quite at the "standard" TTL levels for greater noise immunity and minimal input leakage. > > The Unibus interface chips (that were also used on Omnibus) are: > DS8640 quad bus receivers > DS8641 quad bus transceivers > DS8837 hex bus receivers > DS8881 quad bus drivers > > There were older versions but these are pretty much what everyone used for Unibus and Omnibus systems. There are newer ones as well, with true trapezoidal drivers, such as the DS3662 (I think John Wilson said he had a large quantity of some member of that family that he was happy to sell). None, of course, are in production anymore. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 27 14:51:39 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:51:39 -0700 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Earl Evans writes: > Regarding the comments on baud rate and flow control - still doesn't make > sense to me why the VT100 would not exhibit the error with a real PDP-11 > (at 9600 baud), but does do it with the emulated PDP-11. The info is coming > at the terminal at the same rate - why would the behavior be different? A real PDP-11 has hardware flow control turned on in the interface. If you're coming in over a modem, you need to make sure both ends of the communication are either i) setup for XON/XOFF flow control, or ii) the remote OS is setup to use fill padding based on baud rate. Escape sequence specifications in terminfo have the ability to specify fill characters (or delays) based on baud rate. Here is my shell's idea of the vt100 terminfo entry: # Reconstructed via infocmp from file: /lib/terminfo/v/vt100 vt100|vt100-am|dec vt100 (w/advanced video), am, mc5i, msgr, xenl, xon, cols#80, it#8, lines#24, vt#3, acsc=``aaffggjjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz{{||}}~~, bel=^G, blink=\E[5m$<2>, bold=\E[1m$<2>, clear=\E[H\E[J$<50>, cr=^M, csr=\E[%i%p1%d;%p2%dr, cub=\E[%p1%dD, cub1=^H, cud=\E[%p1%dB, cud1=^J, cuf=\E[%p1%dC, cuf1=\E[C$<2>, cup=\E[%i%p1%d;%p2%dH$<5>, cuu=\E[%p1%dA, cuu1=\E[A$<2>, ed=\E[J$<50>, el=\E[K$<3>, el1=\E[1K$<3>, enacs=\E(B\E)0, home=\E[H, ht=^I, hts=\EH, ind=^J, ka1=\EOq, ka3=\EOs, kb2=\EOr, kbs=^H, kc1=\EOp, kc3=\EOn, kcub1=\EOD, kcud1=\EOB, kcuf1=\EOC, kcuu1=\EOA, kent=\EOM, kf0=\EOy, kf1=\EOP, kf10=\EOx, kf2=\EOQ, kf3=\EOR, kf4=\EOS, kf5=\EOt, kf6=\EOu, kf7=\EOv, kf8=\EOl, kf9=\EOw, lf1=pf1, lf2=pf2, lf3=pf3, lf4=pf4, mc0=\E[0i, mc4=\E[4i, mc5=\E[5i, rc=\E8, rev=\E[7m$<2>, ri=\EM$<5>, rmacs=^O, rmam=\E[?7l, rmkx=\E[?1l\E>, rmso=\E[m$<2>, rmul=\E[m$<2>, rs2=\E>\E[?3l\E[?4l\E[?5l\E[?7h\E[?8h, sc=\E7, sgr=\E[0%?%p1%p6%|%t;1%;%?%p2%t;4%;%?%p1%p3%|%t;7%;%?%p4%t;5%;m%?%p9%t\016%e\017%;$<2>, sgr0=\E[m\017$<2>, smacs=^N, smam=\E[?7h, smkx=\E[?1h\E=, smso=\E[7m$<2>, smul=\E[4m$<2>, tbc=\E[3g, Notice the entries with <2>, <3>, etc. These specify the relative delay or padding necessary when that ESC sequence is issued. The delays are all proportional to baud rate -- the faster you communicate, the more delay/padding is used. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 27 14:57:53 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:57:53 -0700 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Hardware flow control in the DEC world (and many other places) is commonly > RTS/CTS (Request To Send, Clear To Send). Another mistake on my part, sorry :) I meant RTS/CTS. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 15:06:09 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:06:09 -0800 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Richard wrote: > >> Hardware flow control in the DEC world (and many other places) is commonly >> RTS/CTS (Request To Send, Clear To Send). > > Another mistake on my part, sorry :) > > I meant RTS/CTS. And what good will that do for you on a real VT100? http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/vt100.net/docs/vt100-ug/chapter2.html#S2.2.1 Request to Send (from VT100) ? Pin 4 Asserted at all times when terminal is powered up. Clear to Send (to VT100) ? Pin 5 Ignored at all times. From nekonoko at mac.com Wed Feb 27 15:42:18 2013 From: nekonoko at mac.com (Pete Plank) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:42:18 -0800 Subject: WAMECO FPBC-1 photo mask images Message-ID: <869FD988-B6CD-4D93-A853-D28827D0BDA8@mac.com> Does anyone have any photos/drawings of the WAMECO FPBC-1 photo mask for the FPB-1 front panel board? I'm planning on recreating one as finding a stock photo mask is likely impossible at this late date. Thanks much, Pete Plank From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 27 15:54:00 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:54:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362002040.77516.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Now now Mardy. We can disagree w/o being hilarious. ------------------------------ On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 7:08 PM PST Mardy Marshall wrote: >Raspberry Pi - The Chia Pet of Personal Computers > >-Mardy > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 27 15:59:31 2013 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 13:59:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1362002371.43323.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> The Omnibus drivers, at least on most 8/E-vingtage cards, were Signetics N8881, which were not trapezoidal. I have Omnibus cards in my possession that have clearly-labelled TI 7439 parts used instead of the 8881. Early Omnibus cards used selected 7401s. The DS series parts were used on Unibus and later-production Omnibus cards. Undoubtedly, they were preferable once they became available. Likewise, the Schmitt-trigger receivers that replaced the Signetics Utilogic II (SP380, etc.) parts. DEC used different solutions over the years, some probably better-behaved electrically than others. --Bill --- On Wed, 2/27/13, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > From: Guy Sotomayor > Subject: Re: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, February 27, 2013, 11:24 AM > > On Feb 27, 2013, at 12:41 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > > > Am 27.02.2013 00:03, schrieb Guy Sotomayor: > >> I should point out that (at least from looking at a > couple of the > >> photos) you're not using Unibus transceivers which > are standard on > >> Omnibus devices.? It'll probably work OK on a > lightly loaded system > >> but a PDP-8/e with a double backplane with lots of > boards may have > >> issues. > > Ah, really? Of course NOT! The original driver was > DEC8881 which is a relabelled 7439. The 7438 I used has very > similar specifications. > > As the DEC8881 and the 7438 are not available, I have > chosen the 7438. > > And it does not make a big difference if the machine is > more or less loaded. The load on the drivers is always the > same. It's an open collector bus. > > The 8881 is *not* a relabeled 7439.? Yes, it's open > collector but the current sinking capabilities are pretty > high (80ma?).? It's also what's called a "trapezoidal" > driver which has a controlled slew rate (rise/fall times) to > minimize reflections on the bus.? The drivers are > optimized to drive into a bus terminated by a 180ohm > resistor to +5 and a 390ohm resistor to ground. > > The receivers are also specialized and are not quite at the > "standard" TTL levels for greater noise immunity and minimal > input leakage. > > The Unibus interface chips (that were also used on Omnibus) > are: > DS8640??? ??? quad bus > receivers > DS8641??? ??? quad bus > transceivers > DS8837??? ??? hex bus > receivers > DS8881??? ??? quad bus > drivers > > There were older versions but these are pretty much what > everyone used for Unibus and Omnibus systems. > > As I said, you can probably get away with it for small > configurations but I would expect some issues with larger > systems/configurations. > > TTFN - Guy > > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 15:57:43 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:57:43 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512E8157.30401@hachti.de> Am 27.02.2013 20:24, schrieb Guy Sotomayor: > The 8881 is *not* a relabeled 7439. Whatever it is: I have *seen* that on an actual board. -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From xmechanic at landcomp.net Wed Feb 27 16:06:37 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:06:37 -0700 Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II Message-ID: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> Non-Linear Systems Kaypro II - 1983? model Serial No. 27171 Machine is complete with 2 - 5.25" floppy drives and powers up, but I have no software to test it fully. Has new keyboard cable and comes with power cord. Need to unload some stuff to make room for some new office furniture that I just acquired. $125.00 USD + shipping Shipping weight with packing would be around 30 - 33 lbs. http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/18-vintage-computer-stuff/8-kaypro-ii-portable-computer -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 16:06:28 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:06:28 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512E8364.40004@hachti.de> Am 27.02.2013 20:57, schrieb David Riley: > There are a lot of discrete or paired FETs that should do the job of the > driver quite adequately; I had that idea, too. Even easier to design and - cheaper. > the receiver is usually best done with a high-speed > comparator, which unfortunately tend not to be particularly cheap. The best > one I've found for modern devices is the MAX9108, which fits the required > 35ns propagation delay; 35ns is not that fast. But it could work. > it has TTL outputs (not great for 3.3v logic, but you > can use glue) and costs about $1 per gate ($.50 per in>= 100 qty). The CPLD I'm planning to use (the three small ones are result of an "accident" when estimating the pin consumption) is 5V tolerant. I will keep the current design for now. After building a prototype of the final board, I'll simply test it in a really loaded 8/e. And then we'll see if there are reliability issues. I'll also test the system with the card in place. Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 27 16:18:21 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 15:18:21 -0700 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Dear all, please consider RTS/CTS/DTR nit sufficiently picked. Thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 16:22:55 2013 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 14:22:55 -0800 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01OQOLXTGGRM006RW8@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Back to possible ways of solving the original poster's question- Any chance you have a terminal server, for example a Digi PortServer? Or have any hobby budget to pick one up? Mine cost me around $35. As an experiment I just set up SIMH V3.9-0 on a Windows 8 system running RT-11 Version 5.3 and connected a real CIT-101 (VT100 clone) to the SIMH console through a Digi PortServer 16. (Too lazy to dig out my real VT100 right now). On SIMH I did this: sim> set console telnet=1173 Listening on port 1173 (socket 180) Then on the real CIT-101 at the PortServer prompt I did this: #> telnet 192.168.1.103 1173 Then back on SIMH I did this: sim> boot rl0 And then the real CIT-101 terminal was connected to the SIMH console running RT-11. On the real CIT-101 terminal in the SET-UP B screen Auto XON-XOFF was enabled in the Group 2 Position 4 bit, which is the default. On the Digi PortServer if I disabled its XON/XOFF flow control for output data and output a large amount of text to the CIT-101 terminal (for example "TYPE DU.MAC") I would get some of the buffer overflow error characters displayed on the CIT-101 terminal. If I enabled XON/XOFF flow control on the PortServer and output the same amount of text I wouldn't get any of the buffer overflow error characters and the OFC Output Flow Control LED on the PortServer would blink at times indicated that the output was being flow controlled. So with your real VT100 terminal connected to a SIMH console you most likely need XON/XOFF flow control at the far end serial port where the terminal is directly connected and not flow control running in the emulated CPU software. I was able to get the far end serial port XON/XOFF flow control by connecting the real terminal to a port server which was doing the flow control. If your real terminal is connected to a Linux console I don't know enough about that to know whether or not or how you can enable XON/XOFF flow control there. -Glen From sales at elecplus.com Wed Feb 27 16:35:49 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:35:49 -0600 Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> References: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <011301ce153a$cab52a40$601f7ec0$@com> Silly question, but why don't you download the Kaypro software from the CPM link on your site? Then you could play with it, or at least test it? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Land Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II Non-Linear Systems Kaypro II - 1983? model Serial No. 27171 Machine is complete with 2 - 5.25" floppy drives and powers up, but I have no software to test it fully. Has new keyboard cable and comes with power cord. Need to unload some stuff to make room for some new office furniture that I just acquired. $125.00 USD + shipping Shipping weight with packing would be around 30 - 33 lbs. http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/18-vintage-computer-st uff/8-kaypro-ii-portable-computer -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 16:55:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:55:43 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512E8364.40004@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> <512E8364.40004@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:06 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 27.02.2013 20:57, schrieb David Riley: > > >> There are a lot of discrete or paired FETs that should do the job of the >> driver quite adequately; > I had that idea, too. Even easier to design and - cheaper. It does come at the expense of some board space compared to an integrated transceiver, though with modern SMT devices, not much. If you're not doing the assembly yourself, that'll cost you as well. For > >> the receiver is usually best done with a high-speed >> comparator, which unfortunately tend not to be particularly cheap. The best >> one I've found for modern devices is the MAX9108, which fits the required >> 35ns propagation delay; > 35ns is not that fast. But it could work. 35ns is the maximum propagation delay for drivers and receivers per DEC specs (at least for QBUS and Unibus, so I'd assume any bus standard which uses DEC transceivers). That's for the whole chain, so it includes the receiver as well as any buffering required after it. The MAX9108 has a typical Tpd of 25ns, but the max isn't specified, which makes me a little uncomfortable. I'm considering going with the LT1720/1721 (dual and quad of the same comparator) which have a worst-case Tpd of under 10ns with the kind of overdrive we're talking about. It also has the advantage of running at 3.3v CMOS levels, which makes the design a lot easier if you're talking to modern components. It does cost about three times as much, though, which isn't great. >> it has TTL outputs (not great for 3.3v logic, but you >> can use glue) and costs about $1 per gate ($.50 per in>= 100 qty). > The CPLD I'm planning to use (the three small ones are result of an "accident" when estimating the pin consumption) is 5V tolerant. It'll generally work fine because most CPLDs these days are designed to work with PCI, so they have 4.0v-capable pins with clamp diodes to Vcc, so all you need to do is provide series terms. Very handy, especially considering that TTL generally only outputs about 3.4ish volts for a high value. It all still makes me a bit nervous, but that's probably unfounded worries. > I will keep the current design for now. After building a prototype of the final board, I'll simply test it in a really loaded 8/e. And then we'll see if there are reliability issues. I'll also test the system with the card in place. If you can, can you get scope traces of your inputs and outputs? I'm curious to see what they look like, since I haven't built up my board yet (and I only have a 4-slot backplane with which to test anyway). As Eric mentioned, you'd probably want to do it on a 100 MHz bandwidth or better scope. Looks like it should be a winner, though! Great work! - Dave From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 17:37:59 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:37:59 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> <512E8364.40004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <512E98D7.2010606@hachti.de> Am 27.02.2013 23:55, schrieb David Riley: > If you're not doing the assembly yourself, that'll cost you as > well. Currently: hand soldering... > If you can, can you get scope traces of your inputs and > outputs? >... > you'd probably want to do it on a 100 MHz bandwidth or > better scope. I don't have such an oscilloscope. All I have is an old broken 10MHz phosphor oscilloscope. On that the traces look great... A good digital storage oscilloscope is one of the next thing that I have to earn with my designs :-) Currently completely out of reach. Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From hachti at hachti.de Wed Feb 27 17:39:43 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:39:43 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <1362002371.43323.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1362002371.43323.YahooMailClassic@web181606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512E993F.6070704@hachti.de> Am 27.02.2013 22:59, schrieb William Maddox: > I have Omnibus cards in my possession that > have clearly-labelled TI 7439 parts used instead of the 8881. Thank you, William! So I'm not the only one who has seen that :-) From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Feb 27 17:33:51 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:33:51 +0100 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6EACD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <512D32A0.9050203@gmail.com> <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B998D6EACD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20130227233351.GA8244@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 01:49:52AM +0000, Ian King wrote: > > I also agree with you, Dave, that it's a great little project card. I've > been wanting to do a little web-based media server for the living room > that doesn't take a bunch of room or power, and a RPi running Linux seems > perfect - once I'm done playing with it. But then I'll just buy another > one for play purposes. :-) -- Ian K7PDP I have one of my Raspberries doing exactly that: - mp3 archive is mounted via NFS over OpenVPN-over-WLAN - mpd (Music Player Daemon) is used to play - which has a ton of different frontends, so I can even control it from my phone ;-) - an external USB-Audio device takes care of the sound output due to the problems of the Raspberry Pi line out Works just fine ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Feb 27 17:39:12 2013 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:39:12 +0100 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512DF98D.3040100@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <59190902-D4DE-4B0F-AC07-D309DDCF09A1@cs.ubc.ca> <512DF98D.3040100@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20130227233912.GB8244@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 01:18:21PM +0100, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > 1. In Germany it's currently 19%. > 2. I'm quite sure that foreigners don't have to pay it - but they > then have to deal with customs. Surprisingly few companies get this right. Amazon handles it correctly (i.e. buying something at Amazon.de from .ch --> no german VAT charged). > When I order something from outside EU, I have to pay the 19% VAT at > the customs office when receiving it. > > Am 27.02.2013 11:08, schrieb Adrian Stoness: > >do foreners have to pay it? > > > >On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > >>On 2013 Feb 26, at 9:47 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> > >>>On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Philipp Hachtmann > >>>wrote: > >>> > >>>>Am 26.02.2013 19:34, schrieb Adrian Stoness: > >>>> > >>>> how much????????? > >>>>> > >>>>> Depends on interest/lot size. After 3 hours now the price is at approx. > >>>>EUR 250/piece without VAT - falling with growing number of boards. > >>>>But it should still become cheaper.... > >>>> > >>> > >> whats vat? > >>> > >> > >>VAT == Value Added Tax. Equivalent to our (Canada's) GST. It's where our > >>government got the idea for the GST (the European VAT was a few decades > >>earlier). > >> > >> > > > -- > > > Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann > Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten > > Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover > Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 > Fax. 0511/3500439 > hachti at hachti.de > www.tiegeldruck.de > > UStdID DE 202668329 -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 15:55:38 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:55:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512D30B2.5080800@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Feb 26, 13 04:01:22 pm Message-ID: > > As I have said several times, if you want to learn how a computer really > > works, buy a non-working Unibus PDP11 (nto an 11/24, 11/84, 11/94, etc > > ,one of the TTL-baed ones), a PDP8/e or an HP9830 and learn to fix it. By > > the time it's working you will know just how a CPU executes instructions. > > > > If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've > > yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > > > But I do wonder jhsut who the Rpi is aimed at. Given that you need a PC > > and its peripherals (keyboard, mouse, monitor) to use the Rpi, I wonder > > if it wouldn't be simpler jsut to install a free C compiler on said PC, > > at least to learn programming. > > > I think that for the vast majority of modern households, any of your > 3 alternatives would be much more expensive, not to mention disruptive, > than simply dressing out a Raspberry Pi system. Sure, but you might actually learn sonething that way :-) > > Most households run Windows. Yes, there exist free compilers for > Windows but not a lot of parents understand or are willing to risk that > sort of activity on their primary business/communication center. And > rightly so. So just throwing a free compiler on a PC will likely > require the purchase of said PC. Sure, but... If you use the Rpi in the recommended way, you download an OS image from the internet and write it ot an SD card. The tool you need to do that does not come natively with Windows, you have to install it. And whther j-random-parent relaises it or not, it's a lot mroe dangerous to the itnegrity of the PC than a compiler. > > Did you price any BBC Micros lately? Or PDP11 systems, for that Last time I looked, BBC micros were essentially free. A nice syutem is comparable in price ot an Rpi. > matter? How about shipping costs? Not to mention the fact that the > common household would need to purchase some kind of serial terminal, or A BBC micro does not require a serial termianl. It needs a composte monitor or TV set An HP9830 needs nothing other htan a mains lead (OK, that is probably the most expensive machien to get off my list). Yes, a PDP8 opr PDP11 needs a serial terminal but getting soemthing that wil lact like one is probalby chepaer than findign the bits to make an Rpi useufl > at the least a good USB-serial adapter for use with a PC-based terminal > emulator. Bear in mind also that in most countries, cubic footage is a > very limited resource... > > Finally, most households already own as spares all or most of the > peripherals required by the Rpi. If not, "old" USB keyboards and mice > are very nearly free for the taking. I understood there were 'issues' with some USB devies -- even keyboards -- on the Rpi. Nothing like trying to learn on a mahcine if you don't knwo it;'s working properly... > > My take on the Raspberry Pi is that it offers EXACTLY what it claims > to offer. A cheap, accessible ENTRY POINT into programming and/or > hardware hacking. Incidentally, it can also serve nicely as a lower-end Programming I will grant you, although $deity help you to figure it out form the recoemended documetntion/. Hardware hacking, no way.... > general-purpose modern** computer. > > **where by "modern" I mean there's no need nor desire for FDC, RS232, > VGA, stepped instructions, etc. Actually the Rpi has a serial port as standard, you jsut need to buffer it to RS232 levels. It will also work with USB floppy drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 16:35:39 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:35:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 26, 13 11:42:56 pm Message-ID: > I don't know how that got sent half-done! Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... > > > To a child born in the developed world this century, the Web is part > > of life, always there at megabit speeds, as ubiq > > ... as ubiquitous as air. Computers have GUIs, windows, taskbars etc, > and come with a web browser, as does even a cheap basic old phone or > pocket music player. Games are real-time 3D, even ones on a cheap 2- > or 3- generation old games console such as might be given to > preschoolers to play with. Don;t you fidn it odd that 99.9% of such people don;'t ahve a clue as to what they are doing, and necer will. And yet people who grew up o nthe old 80-bitters often did learn something about the machine, or programming, or...? > > No, a BBC Micro or anything from the 1980s is not a suitable teaching > tool. It is a flint axe when the kids grew up with sliced bread. It is > a dugout canoe when grandad and grandma go yachting at the weekend. I completely disgree with you. If you understnad the concepts of programming and hardware on the Beeb, then you can adapt them to more modern machiens very easily. > > The mere idea is laughably unrealistic. > > If you are teaching a kid to drive, you don't teach them how to build > the car first. > > If you're teaching them to maintain a car, you don't teach them how to > design and construct an engine first. No, but I most certianly would teach them how an engine operates. The 4 stroke cycle, spark igniton, fuel-air mixture that sort of thing. And not jsut hte level or 'remove this plug and all the oil runs out, then put the plgu back in and pour new oil in here'. > So, no, actually, tools like BASIC and assembly code have no > relevance today, not really. Because the days when a BBC Micro was a The concepts of programming -- things like subroutes (functions, procedures), lops, variables, etc are much the same in any procdural language. Learn one properly, and you can pick up the otehrs in a very short time. Note that BBC BASIC is a particularly good tool for this sicne it has named procedures, local variables, even pointers to some extent. > computer are so long ago that these kid's *parents* don't even really > remember them. > > A BBC Micro is not a computer any more, because it is 2013 now. People That is one of the most stupid thigns i have ever seen. I would ilke you to give me one defintion of 'computer' that excludes the Beeb. > Assembly code is equivalent to how to chip a sharp arrowhead from a > piece of flint. > > BASIC is equivalent to learning how to smelt iron. Consideirng that _somebody_ still has to make cutting tools and extract iron from its ore, don't you think it's reasonable to learn about such thigns? Even if you write i na high level language, the CPU on whatever machien stil lexecuts machine instructions. So whoever wrote the compiler has to understnd the machien language of the processor.. Now maybe you're happy wity nobody being able to write ocmpilers any more, but I certainly am not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 16:45:27 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:45:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 27, 13 00:08:17 am Message-ID: > Tony, look, it is perfectly fine if you personally choose to live a > 1980s existence using 1980s technology. > > You could have much newer and more powerful computers if you wanted; > I've offered to give them to you, deliver them and set them up and > show you around them. You refused. You thought about it for a bit, > I'll give you that, but you said no. Actually, you offered me machinwes that had 'issues' lile they didn't always work. No thanks. I would mcuih rather have a slow and ancient machien that I know will work. I can depend on that. In any cae, a faster PC would not give me fast internet access. I would also need broadbandmm, surely. > > That's fine. It's your choice, your call. > > But because you choose not to have broadband, choose to use a 1980s > PC, choose not to have 21st century technology in your life - does not > mean or imply that everyone else should. > > Something like 80% of the country has broadband in the home. > [Citation: http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/market-data-research/market-data/communications-market-reports/cmr11/uk/1.3] > And to suggest that the children should be learning how to debug a > PDP/11 is as absurd as saying that they should be able to build a > yurt, find some suitable flint, make a stone spear tip and slaughter > and butcher a mammoth. > > Yes, our ancestors did that, 10,000Y ago or something, and these were > essential life-skills then. They are not any more. Yo u may be happy to have j=random-unknown do vrythign for you. I am not. If you are happy taking ready-made stuff and just using it, then fine. But I don;t see how that can be said to be educational _about said ready-made stuff_. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 16:25:06 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:25:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 26, 13 11:33:41 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 February 2013 22:44, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > On 02/26/2013 02:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> If you are prepeared to use a microprocessor, then get a BBC micro. I've > >> yet to se a better educational machine. Seriously. > > > > Yes, they are pretty flexible (and reasonably hard to kill!). The 380Z > > wasn't bad either, although not quite in the same league. I'm not sure what > > a good equivalent this side of the Pond would be - maybe an Apple II as long > > as it came with a few useful cards? > > If you wanted to get a teenager interested in car mechanics, would you > give them an late-19th-century Daimler-Benz ? > > I mean, it's mechanically simple! > > No, of course you wouldn't, because it's an antique. It's barely able > to chug along a road at all and it complies with no modern road-safety > standards - it doesn't even have a steering wheel, it has a tiller. > > No, you would want something that had a steering wheel, the usual stop > and go pedals, indicators and headlights and so on - something that > actually resembled a car. > > That being so, would you give them a huge 1950s sedan? I mean, they're > simpler than modern cars. > > No, because it's huge and heavy and complicated to run compared to a > modern car where you put petrol in and it goes for a year without > maintenance. Also, along with all the maintenance and the fact that > it's huge and intimidating, if you have one that still works, it might > be a collectible vintage item; if it's not old enough to be vintage, > it's probably still worth money. > > No, you'd give them a little modern compact car, maybe not this year's > latest model, one from a few years ago - small, basic, safe, > roadworthy and familiar and resembling other vehicles they might > encounter. A runabout, something cheap and simple and disposable. No I wouldn't. I';d give them soemthign like an (origianl) Mini. Reasoanble economical on fuel, easy to understand, and the basics are the same as a more modern car. > > In this extended metaphor, being roadworthy means being usable on the > Web. That is what 21st century computers are /for/, that is their > purpose in existence. Being roadworthy means being able to run Wrong, IMHO. There are certianly uses for comptuers o nthe web, but not _all_ computers have to have internet access. If you want ot learn programnming, or hardware deisngm or... then there is no need for _that_ machien to _have to have_ inernet access. > Firefox, say - some standard browser and other fairly standard > software. AFAIK the Rpi does not run Firefox. > > Having conventional controls - a steering wheel etc. - means having a > GUI, being worked with a mouse and so on. > > You are debating which model of 1890s horseless carriage would be most > suitable, when to an impartial outside observer, all of them are > utterly irrelevant. > > To a child born in the developed world this century, the Web is part > of life, always there at megabit speeds, as ubiq For me, and for manty people I know, the only way to truely lean aobut soemthing is to understnad it at a very basicl level. It is easily possible to understand a PDP11 at a very basic level. The scheamtics nad tech manuals eist, oyu cna understnad it to get level. The data sheets on many of those gate ICs give transistor level scheamtics. You really can understnad the machine. I defy anyone to udnerstnad a modern machine to that level. Period. You may be happy with somebody else understnading what goes on, and jsut givinhg you fairly complex devices to stick together, but that IMHO is not truely educational. Simmilarly, it's possible to undersntad at least older versiosn of unix-like OSes. To understnad every last line in the kernel source. It's probably possible to do that o nthe Rpi, actually (well, apart from the bits where you don;'t get souce...)but fo the simple fact that hte soruces are not easy to find. Yes, the yexist, but they are not supplied with the machine and there si no obviopus poitner ot them (like a URL). Not i nthe book, not anywhere obviosuly on the SD card. This may acutally be a violation f the GPL, but anyway... Includign the soruces would eb a good thing. J rand om user might start readign them almost by accident and learn something. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 16:57:30 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:57:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130227012516.GA17315@thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Feb 27, 13 02:25:16 am Message-ID: > Wait. They squeezed every _cent_ from the BOM and you are surprised that > the results are less than ... impressive? Exactly. It;'s like those vile Sinclair machines of 30 years ago. It's jsut too cheap. If they ahd sold it for, pewrhaps, tiwce the current proce with enough I/.O to he useful, etc, then I could ahve found applciations for it. As it is, I can't. > > > On a more generaly note, it looks a mess. There are a lot of bits to plug > > together for the complete system. The board has conenctors all round it. > > And it needs a case, there are SMD components on both sides of the PCB. > > > > Software : Unless you have a fast internet connection that you can > > connet the Rpi to, it's pretty much unusalbe. The suppleid Raspbian does > > not include sources, and there is no obvious pointer as to where to get > > Yes, that information was cleverly hidden at: > http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianFAQ > or, for just the package sources: > http://www.raspbian.org/RaspbianRepository You do realise that this is not mentioned anywhere in any printed docuemtnation I haev seen... > > and: > https://github.com/raspberrypi > > has the kernel and various other bits. Yes, the GPU specific code is > still binary only - you can thank Broadcom for that. Alas yes. I do wonder about havign a so-called educatuional machine where a major section is covered by an NDA, but... > > > them (since this is supposed to be an educational machine, it fails > > spectacularly here). There are also all sorts of thigns misisng form the > > standard distribution. YEs, you can install them, but. you ened the > > internet conenction. > > The packages you consider important and the packages that I consider important > and finally those that anybody else considers important probably don't have > that much overlap. What should they do? Install the world and require a > 32 GB SD-Card (guessing on the size here). Offer a 16 GB download (compressed) > for the "base image"? Similiarly for not including source in the standard > image. The checked out kernel tree alone is several hundred MB. It should be _offered_. In otehr words I should be able to go to one of the suppliers of the Rpi abnd buy some device that can be conencted to the Rpi -- be it USB stick, a USB hard drive, or whatever -- pre-instaleld with all the soruces and binaries. I am not saying is has to be included with the machine, jsut easy to get. Althought IMHO at least the kernel source should be included. Many people have learnt a lot byu deliving into such things... > > So: you can easily get the stuff, but it needs an Internet connection. > Big deal. So complete and test your Raspberry Pi setup before you wander > off in the woods where there is no network connection ;-) for 'wwods' read 'my workshop' :-) More seriosuly, I think it should be stated that the darn thing is net-to-useless without a fast internet connection. I have seen countless devices that say on the backing 'requires 2 AA batteries [1], not included', for all priamry cells are easy to get in just avout any shop, and most people I know keep the common sizes at home anyway. And yet for th Rpi there is no mention of it needing any other resources to be useful. [1] Strictly that's 'AA cells', but most packaging is not precisely worded! > > > Docuemntation : What documentation? Yo uget a bit of paper telling you it > > doens't meet the EMD directives (!) and a single sheet telling you how > > to set it up. The latter is very incomplete. For a machien aimed at > > beginners, there should be a set of instruciton of ghte form 'plug this > > in here'. Look at the original BBC micro user guide. > > People seem to mistake the Raspberry Pi as the second coming of the BBC Micro. > It assuredly isn't. It is often claimed ot be. It is more like the second coming of the Sinclair Spectrum :-( > > There is no docuemtnation on msot of the linux commands. No problem for > > us, but... In particular, there is no docuemtned way to back up the OS. > > Yes, you can connect a USB card readeer, put in another SD card, and dd > > it over. Fine if you know how to use dd. Not fine if you don't. Again, > > The Internet exists. So does Google. Seriously. And I foudn countless blogs that amy or may nor have applied to the current version of the software (some things most certainly do not). To attempt to learn anythign form such unreliable information is a waste of time. > > > there needs ot be a specific set of instructions on how to do this. > > Especially as it's all too easy to mis-configure the machien so it won't > > boot. > > And that is one key thing they got right with the Raspberry: if it doesn't > boot, you swap the SD card and you're done. No need to hunt down the JTAG > gear. It's oen thign they got very wrong. Most people would put their root file system on that SD card. And oftehn their user files, programs they've written, etc. So mess up the SD card, yopu have to reflash it, you've lost all you ever did. Great. Yes, you and I know what do do (hint : boot the Rpi from a known-good image, put the defective card i na USB card reader hugh off the Rpi, mount the approprtiate partition, etc), but it's not in the fine book. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 17:05:07 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:05:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130227014544.GB17315@thangorodrim.de> from "Alexander Schreiber" at Feb 27, 13 02:45:44 am Message-ID: > The Internet exists and these days, that is something that is pretty much > assumed as a given fact. Besides, where did you _get_ your Raspberry? Don't > tell me you mailed Farnell (or whoever sold it to you) a filled out order > form via snail mail. ;-) I don't belive I have admitted to ownign an Rpi... In any case : firstly there sxist public access internet systems in the uK (libraries, internet cafes, etc). It's quite possibel to use on of those to order from Farnell. It is much less practiucla to use one to download stuff for the Rpi (and then ahve to go back becuase you didn't know you needed soem other package as well). And as I poitneds out, over herem Maplin shops, in the high street, sell the Rpi. You just walk into he shop, hand ove rthe cash, and walk out with one. > > Yes, they could have included a set of "programming starter books", but > that would probably have been another USD 100+ on the bill. If you can;'t figure out how to sue somthing, it's useless. A machine designed to teach programming should have at least one introductory book _avaialble_. Not necesssarily included, but available. And yet Maplin dont' sell noe. I've not seen one in any bookshop. > > Unless they dropped the relevant drivers from the Raspbian standard kernel, > accessing USB optical drives should be trivial. It _is_ running Linux, > after all. Yes, 'should be trivial'. I have learnt over the years to only know somehtign is trivial when Iv'e done it, though. > As for "just download it": A full repository mirror fof Ubuntu Lucid for > arm has almost 90000 files in it. I don't expect a full Raspbian mirror > to be much smaller. So? Why is the file count a problem? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 27 17:09:28 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:09:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11 / Unibus: config info for Motorola Memory Systems MMS1117 MOS board? In-Reply-To: <512D681A.8040208@cimmeri.com> from "js@cimmeri.com" at Feb 26, 13 08:57:46 pm Message-ID: [Plessy MUD board in my 11/45] > Wow. Do you recall how many layers the PCB had? I'd be interested in I think it was at least 6 layrs. Certainly internal power and groudn palnes, and I think some hidden signal traces too). > seeing a sample scan of the > schematic you laboriously produced, just to get an idea of technique. How wil lseeing a scan of the schematics (which I can't provide fo the well-known reasons) help with this? There are plent of other scheamtics produced b ythe smae methods arounds. Which is just to buzz out connections and undersntad what you are doing so you can make a recognisable schemaitc from them. > > The web has certainly made hobbies like this unimaginably easier, if not > just possible at all. Oh, I don;t know.... I manage pretty well without it. -tony From wilson at dbit.com Wed Feb 27 18:00:06 2013 From: wilson at dbit.com (John Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:00:06 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130228000006.GA24377@dbit.dbit.com> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:53:38AM -0800, Earl Evans wrote: >Regarding the comments on baud rate and flow control - still doesn't make >sense to me why the VT100 would not exhibit the error with a real PDP-11 >(at 9600 baud), but does do it with the emulated PDP-11. The info is coming >at the terminal at the same rate - why would the behavior be different? My guess is buffering. The serial driver and/or host OS are likely to provide some buffering on output so that the first N characters sent over the emulated DL11 appear (to the PDP-11) to go out more or less instantly. So by the time an XOFF comes back (and the PDP-11 stops sending more chars to the DL11), lots more characters are already working their way out, so you're going to get the SUB blocks on the screen when they arrive at the VT100 and overflow its input buffer. I don't know what other emulators have, but in E11 there's an ASSIGN /TXMAX:n switch which sets the limit for transmit buffering. I think the default is something like 16, which is OK for some devices which send XOFF when they still have space left, but not for others like the LA120 which needs /TXMAX:1 or else BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP. John Wilson D Bit From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 27 18:30:11 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:30:11 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20130227143334.GA78934@night.db.net> References: <512D4CD3.5010504@xs4all.nl> <20130227013501.GA92175@night.db.net> <512DEFEF.2030703@xs4all.nl> <20130227143334.GA78934@night.db.net> Message-ID: <512EA513.6070803@verizon.net> On 02/27/2013 09:33 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:37:19PM +0100, MG wrote: >> On 27-feb-2013 2:35, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> The VT100 could not keep up with full speed 9600 baud. The back of >>> the VT100 manual has a table of how many nul chars you need per baud rate. >> Well, I have never owned or used a (real) PDP-series system. (I was >> also born long after their heyday.) > *laugh* The important thing here is to solve the problem, not worry > about age differences. ;) I do have a copy of a VT-100 manual downstairs > somewhere, and I do recall it stating number of nuls per baud rate to insert > or suggesting the use of flow control. I am sure a copy of the manual is > online if anyone is really curious. > > I do remember being very disapointed at the time I first read this > some time (*cough*) ago, as the framebuffers of a modern PC were still > a few years away. We all treasured serial speed, as that was the way > things were done. Having a terminal claiming it could run 9.6K was nice > but disapointing it could not actually keep up. One way to seriously slow the terminal down was to enable smooth scroll as that took a fair amount of cpu cycles to implement. The fastest was jump scroll and set to VT52 mode. Data setups with 8bits and stick parity with 2 stop bits were better than 7bits. reason that added two bit times per character (slows the overall character rate). When the host is DEC and local (less than 50ft cable) I used to run 19.2k on my Vt102 (smooth scroll and Vt100 mode, xon/off) and it was great when editing. > Heh the wikipedia article shows it was running an 8080 > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_VT102 > > I owned one working Volker-Craig terminal and several more parts ones. > http://vt100.net/volker-craig/ > I gave them all to a member of this list. > It seemed to run a tad faster than the real VT100. I seem to recall > spotting a Z-80 on that board. The H19 used a Z80. The vt100 was top of the line for its time to be replaced with the VT220. In the between there were varients like the 102 that were actually a little better. Oddly enough there were a lot of oddities of the Vt100 that didn't make it to many of the look alikes. Some even broke VT100 emulation enough to not work at all right for some of the more extreme tests. Generally if there is trash on the screen slow down, 2400 is usually enough. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Feb 27 18:34:46 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't know how that got sent half-done! > > Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... > Why don't you create a device with the equivalent (at least) abilities of the Raspberry Pi, but with your "enhancements" and sell it for $35. Until that happens, I suggest you sit down, shut up and quit being a cranky tonker. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 27 18:41:39 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:41:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362012099.38396.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 1:55 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >Programming I will grant you, although $deity help you to figure it out ... *puzzled look* Is that particular $deity more responsive based on what you toss in the plate? Perhaps we can arrange a sort of $group $buy wink wink and coerce said $deity into getting a truly hackable piece of fruity dessert on the market. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 27 18:58:13 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:58:13 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512EABA5.9080802@jwsss.com> On 2/27/2013 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Don;t you fidn it odd that 99.9% of such people don;'t ahve a clue as to > what they are doing, and necer will. 99.9% of the people I know have no idea what happens once the take a phone off the hook, and talk into it. They don't care. People who are using computers like the Pi vs. ones like PC's and laptops are going to follow. They just use them and don't care how they work. That is why 500,000 (if that is accurate) are already sold. I don't think there are half a million people who plan to learn how the arm chip is interfaced thru the 3v gpio. they want to hook it to a tv ,keybard, etc. and just use it. > And yet people who grew up o nthe > old 80-bitters often did learn something about the machine, or > programming, or...? There aren't that many I know who used the 8080 and 8 bit, and on that learned them either. I knew a lot of people who used them and even could mix and match boards, but seldom if ever could tell you what each board really did to implement its purpose, as most on this list could. They got along just fine bumbling along with horrible early spread sheet programs, word processors and terminal emulators to name what I saw a lot of people do. Many that I helped came to me and said "I won't pay what wants when I can buy a terminal, and a qume (that was what gagged me, I hated daisy wheel printers) and do just fine". Later made some money helping people move off of horrible proprietary typesetter systems they didn't really need, etc. jim From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 27 19:03:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:03:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362013430.70083.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm sure many will agree this exchange is one for the annals. I can't stop laughing. And to think I started it all by yelping about that damned Acorn! From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 27 19:13:29 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:13:29 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512EAF39.1000303@jwsss.com> On 2/27/2013 2:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >has the kernel and various other bits. Yes, the GPU specific code is >> >still binary only - you can thank Broadcom for that. > Alas yes. I do wonder about havign a so-called educatuional machine where > a major section is covered by an NDA, but... The Broadcom chip is probably used because it is useless as a phone or other chip, and is just out on the market being sold to people who don't care a fig about changing the drivers. there are a lot of other chips that are now in small Rpi type gizmos that do have all the docs available. >> > >>> > >them (since this is supposed to be an educational machine, it fails >>> > >spectacularly here). There are also all sorts of thigns misisng form the >>> > >standard distribution. YEs, you can install them, but. you ened the >>> > >internet conenction. >> > >> >The packages you consider important and the packages that I consider important >> >and finally those that anybody else considers important probably don't have >> >that much overlap. What should they do? Install the world and require a >> >32 GB SD-Card (guessing on the size here). Offer a 16 GB download (compressed) >> >for the "base image"? Similiarly for not including source in the standard >> >image. The checked out kernel tree alone is several hundred MB. > It should be_offered_. In otehr words I should be able to go to one of > the suppliers of the Rpi abnd buy some device that can be conencted to > the Rpi -- be it USB stick, a USB hard drive, or whatever -- > pre-instaleld with all the soruces and binaries. I am not saying is has > to be included with the machine, jsut easy to get. > > Althought IMHO at least the kernel source should be included. Many people > have learnt a lot byu deliving into such things... > You are focusing on the Debian model. They make the sources and binaries easily available in a manner that requires internet access. If you want to go with one of the other OS's you are welcome to. I don't know if any of them offer source other than as a net download. Debian was quick and easy to adapt and there are a lot of people who can work on it, hence it is the foremost choice, but certainly you can download a copy to some media and sell your own. That is the way with things now days. I wouldn't bet my business model on shipping paper manuals like you wish and having any of them current by the time you sell product. things change way to fast to commit anything to dead tree for shipment. Jim From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 27 19:20:05 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:20:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362014405.32176.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://www.extremetech.com/computing/148482-the-true-cost-of-a-raspberry-pi-is-more-than-you-think I'm still not knocking it. But what adult male is going to want a Pibow??? Oi vay My idea of a generic netbook case with perhaps a few exchangeable bezels to accommodate various surplus lcd's makes more sense to me. But I hear no mention of the pi supporting a raw lcd panel, like my pmmx sbc's do. Is there any provision for that at all? From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 27 19:30:22 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:30:22 -0800 Subject: NASA Rope Memory Module B28 In-Reply-To: <20130228000006.GA24377@dbit.dbit.com> References: <20130228000006.GA24377@dbit.dbit.com> Message-ID: <512EB32E.6040307@gmail.com> Anyone know what this is out of ? It looks a lot like http://www.apolloartifacts.com/2008/01/rope-memory-mod.html Usually ebay descriptions are just crazy talk but, that may be an actual Apollo artifact. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Raytheon-NASA-Rope-Memeory-Module-B28-/111020115489 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 27 19:48:05 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 17:48:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20130227170555.J69730@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > And as I poitneds out, over herem Maplin shops, in the high street, sell > the Rpi. You just walk into he shop, hand ove rthe cash, and walk out > with one. How long before certain [in need of defensetration] officials attempt to control CASH? There was actually an attempt years ago to abolish $100 bills! "because drug dealers use them"! The college administration here (see defenestration remarks) has decided that instead of a library patron handing 10 cents to the librarian to pay for a single page printout, that they must now leave their printout behind, go to another part of the building, pay 10 cents to the bursar's office, and bring the receipt back to the library to reclaim their printout. This was all due to the president of the college being SHOCKED to find out that the library had almost 25 dollars (mostly in coins) in a lockbox in a drawer. I wish that there were a cheap coin-operated printer with a preview screen! > > Yes, they could have included a set of "programming starter books", but > > that would probably have been another USD 100+ on the bill. THAT is what the LAWYERS say! > If you can;'t figure out how to sue somthing, it's useless. While I would PREFER dead-tree, those docs could be distributed on SD card, CD-ROM, or even on a remote server for download. > A machine designed to teach programming should have at least one > introductory book _avaialble_. Not necesssarily included, but available. > And yet Maplin dont' sell noe. I've not seen one in any bookshop. I was disappointed that DEBUG on the 5150 wasn't built into the ROM. But, at least it came with PC-DOS 1.00, and the Technical Reference Manual was a pretty good start at reference material. It was a while before intro books were available. OTOH, Radio Shack jumped straight in with the David Lien books for the TRS80. > > As for "just download it": A full repository mirror fof Ubuntu Lucid for > > arm has almost 90000 files in it. I don't expect a full Raspbian mirror > > to be much smaller. > So? Why is the file count a problem? You might need to actually write real software. :-) SOME C compilers are SO lame, that they can't comprehend an array index other than 16 bit int! :-) To get those things accepted by SCHOOLS (NOTE: That is ORTHOGONAL to getting them accepted by TEACHERS), they need to be repackaged, WITH A CASE. Remember when Apple could not adequately break into the educational market? They solved that quite cleverly with their Hell and Bowel deal. The case had to be modified to latch (not velcro), and the cord NOT detachable, so that it wouldn't separate and wander off (THAT requirement has since been relaxed in schools). But, most importantly, it had "BELL & Howell" as the name. It was, therefore, no longer an obscure hippy company named after a fruit. AND, since COMPUTERS required Board Of Education special committees, it could now be slid past the budget approval process as "Audio-Visual Equipment". I don't know why they had to be BLACK. Seriously. THAT is what it took. BUT, once those were accepted as being "legitimate", with their implicit approval by B&H, THEN most schools could then buy them cheaper without going through B&H. Any serious attempt at marketing to schools needs to start with a case, with SAFETY labels. They don't however, really CARE whether it is documented or even whether it works. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 0.685 semesters to go From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 27 20:01:21 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 18:01:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362013430.70083.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362013430.70083.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130227180023.I69730@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I'm sure many will agree this exchange is one for the annals. I can't > stop laughing. > And to think I started it all by yelping about that damned Acorn! Surely, we would NEVER have discussed the Raspberry Pi, if you hadn't asked about that damned Acorn! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 27 20:01:41 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 21:01:41 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi References: <512EABA5.9080802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2307B350CB8D49DBA6DB55CEAF052F13@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Stephens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:58 PM Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi > > On 2/27/2013 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > There aren't that many I know who used the 8080 and 8 bit, and on that > learned them either. I knew a lot of people who used them and even could > mix and match boards, but seldom if ever could tell you what each board > really did to implement its purpose, as most on this list could. > > They got along just fine bumbling along with horrible early spread sheet > programs, word processors and terminal emulators to name what I saw a lot > of people do. > > jim People buy computers and other electronics because they have a use in mind for them. not to rip them apart and find out how they work. The reason computers got so cheap is because the vast majority of people who are not geeks had a use for one that didn't include taking the cover off ever. The Raspberry Pi might be a full blown computer to people here, but it is just a building block to others who want a tiny machine to stick into some project of theirs. Knowing how the thing works at a deeper level doesn't help them do what they want most of the time. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Feb 27 21:27:32 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:27:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362022052.23820.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Surely, we would NEVER have discussed the Raspberry Pi, if you hadn't >asked about that damned Acorn! I was only stating I was indirectly responsible for this current iteration :O From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 28 00:40:06 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 01:40:06 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <9A4FA1695E0F455F87ABC75C4BEDA96C@hd2600xt6a04f7> I snagged an original IBM 5150 early model and have a couple questions about it. The unit turns on fine and tries to boot from the first floppy drive as far as I can tell, I don't have a MDA monitor and that is what card it came with. When I try a VGA 8 bit card (or my Everex EGA set to CGA) I don't get a screen and it doesn't boot from the floppy (I change the switches 5,6 from OFF/OFF to ON/ON for VGA/EGA). I tried a Taxan Super Color Graphics card but my CGA monitor just shows a few lines scrolling, seems like that card isn't standard CGA. Not sure how much RAM this thing has either. The 16-64K motherboard has 4 full banks, there is a 64K RAM card installed, and I have a MBI Monte Carlo multi function board with 4 banks full of RAM. Anybody have any information on the MBI board, there are 2x 8 block configuration switches on it that would tell me how it is set up. Also the RAM switched on the 5150 are set to OFF, OFF, OFF, OFF, OFF, ON, OFF, OFF which doesn't seem to jive with the setting options here: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~preid/pcxtsw.htm There is some damage to the board (was shipped with the PS loose and there is a ding by U26), not sure what that might hurt. Thanks, TZ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 28 01:01:05 2013 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:01:05 -0800 Subject: Dust-cover material In-Reply-To: <201302260956.r1Q9u6kQ030911@ls-al.eu> References: <201302241855.r1OItEix004381@dbit.dbit.com> <20130226080133.GA27971@dbit.dbit.com> <80FD59BB-7013-4A26-B875-519C7CD5DBC8@cs.ubc.ca> <201302260956.r1Q9u6kQ030911@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <88B0E5D9-F945-407F-8B3F-59CA4E3FDDBA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2013 Feb 26, at 1:56 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> One desktop machine I received came with a homemade dust cover .. >> made from denim. >> >> HP calculators and desktop computers from the 70's came with fabric >> dust covers, the material feels like a light cotton canvas. >> >> As Chuck mentioned you can throw them in the wash, rather than having >> to dust off the dust covers. Fabric also folds up much more nicely >> than plastic, to get them out of the way when removed. > > But doesn't fabric also CREATE dust? I don't think it would to any appreciable degree if it's not being disturbed, which is pretty much the life of a dust cover, even in daily use. In contrast to clothing, where the friction from continual movement is breaking bits of fibre off. If it's good enough for HP .. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 01:11:12 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:11:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This will be little help, and I can't recall the exact details, but a magazine I used to have described a circuit that IIRC put MDA on a composite monitor. It was Micro something, and common enough but just wasn't BYTE or PC Mag. And you built the thing by wire wrapping w/machine pin sockets and pins that at the time IIRC you could only get from Mouser. They were named as the source anyway. Have you tried beeping? I think rom BASIC supports beeping or some kind of rudimentary sound generation. With no floppy disk or h/d it automatically loads BASIC. Hallelujah. It can be a useful diagnostic tool.in some instances. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 28 01:15:59 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 23:15:59 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <512F042F.7020807@sydex.com> Well, a little poking around reveals that the HG20f9 USB-to-ethernet gizmo, although it uses a Linksys VID (0x066b), isn't a Linksys product at all. Rather, it's a Chinese-origin device that uses the ASX88772B chip from Asix. The 0x20f9 PID doesn't appear to conflict with any existing Linksys device, so it appears that I'll be okay by simply adding the PID/VID pair to the existing AXE driver for OpenBSD. There's an interesting approach to the costly problem of purchasing a VID license from USB-IF--just steal someone else's! Who's gonna know? Now why didn't I think of that? --CHuck From earl at retrobits.com Wed Feb 27 13:16:03 2013 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:16:03 -0800 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <5AEA07AC-4939-467B-A4EC-99FD2DE445C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: First off, thanks as usual for all the great discussion. I learn so much from this list. I reduced the baud rate to 300, and had no problems. Increased to 1200, and things kept working. I'll leave it at 1200 for now and keep playing around. Still, there's one thing doesn't make sense. When I'm using the VT100 in Linux, connected to the same host computer at 9600 baud (just not running SIMH), things function flawlessly. I can do large textual outputs. I can view man pages and perform editing sessions with proper screen codes. No corruption and no sign of the terminal struggling to keep up, even though Linux is throwing characters at it way faster than the emulator could. But go into SIMH, and it starts to fall apart. Oh well, more experimentation. - Earl From Carl.Claunch at gartner.com Wed Feb 27 13:47:00 2013 From: Carl.Claunch at gartner.com (Claunch,Carl) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 19:47:00 +0000 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? Message-ID: <201302271947.r1RJl1fa035360@mx1.ezwind.net> I have it all worked out and tested. It was a parallel IO board using an 8255A, with TTL signals driving the two stepper motors and pen solenoid. TTL 5V signal to one of the four poles of the uniphase stepper motors moves it 3.6 degrees, the operator buttons are reported as inverted TTL signals, no protocols or intelligence at all in the plotter so my job was dead simple. The 20 wire ribbon cable is the six button inputs, the eight stepper motor outputs and the pen solenoid output, plus a ground return. The operator buttons, for example to move the pen to the right, are sent to the computer whose driver would have to step the motor, rather than occurring locally in the plotter. Did I mention that it had zero digital logic chips or intelligence? Nine transistor drivers, a power supply and a few pullup and current limiting resistors, plus the steppers, solenoid, switches and buttons. If anyone else ever needs one, I have documented the cable assignments here so that they are searchable on the web. I will also mention the S-100 bus card assignments to the 8255A ports in case someone wants to use it with a retro machine through the interface card. Pins 1, 2, 4 and 5 are not connected. Pin 3 is ground Pin 6 is inverted TTL input, status of the "start/enter" button on the cover, port PA5 Pin 7 is the central "fast" button for pen movement, inverted TTL input, port PA4 Pin 8 is the "pen right" button, inverted TT input L, port PA3 Pin 9 is the "pen left" button, inverted TTL input, port PA2 Pin 10 is the "pen down" (actually rotate drum and paper up) button, inverted TTL, port PA1 Pin 11 is the "pen up" button, inverted TTL input, port PA0 Pin 12 is the output to activate the pen solenoid so that the pen is marking the paper, TTL 5V to activate, port PB4 Pin 13 is the output for one pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V on this and 0 on the other three, port PC3 Pin 14 is the output for a second pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC2 Pin 15 is the output for a third pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC1 Pin 16 is the output for a fourth pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC0 Pin 13 is the output for one pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V on this and 0 on the other three, port PB3 Pin 14 is the output for a second pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB2 Pin 15 is the output for a third pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB1 Pin 16 is the output for a fourth pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB0 For those not familiar with stepper motors, they have four poles each with a ring of 25 'teeth' that will attract a permanent magnet on the rotor. The four rings are staggered so that in total there are 100 positions around the dial - 3.6 degrees per step. Energize one pole and the magnet is held to the nearest tooth of that pole. Drop that pole and activate another whose tooth is adjacent and the rotor swings one position to hold at the tooth on that pole ring. Interface is a simple four bit circular shift register with one high and three low bits circulating in the pattern. Shift it once and the motor moves one step in the associated direction. Carl ________________________________ This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From roe at liveblockauctions.com Wed Feb 27 16:31:16 2013 From: roe at liveblockauctions.com (Roe Peterson) Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2013 16:31:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22F15D0F-310C-4832-BC91-FB676854D0F6@liveblockauctions.com> > > A real PDP-11 has hardware flow control turned on in the interface. Not necessarily. Most DL-11 interfaces, notably the DL11-W, had no hardware flow control of any kind, or even modem control, and the 11w was probably the most common console interface for unibus pdp11s. It included the line clock. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 01:44:09 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 02:44:09 -0500 Subject: Strobe plotter documentation or information? In-Reply-To: <201302271947.r1RJl1fa035360@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <201302271947.r1RJl1fa035360@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5CF46EB0-C46C-45DF-999C-93833395FAC3@neurotica.com> Nice reverse-engineering work! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Feb 27, 2013, at 2:47 PM, "Claunch,Carl" wrote: > I have it all worked out and tested. > > It was a parallel IO board using an 8255A, with TTL signals driving the two stepper motors and pen solenoid. TTL 5V signal to one of the four poles of the uniphase stepper motors moves it 3.6 degrees, the operator buttons are reported as inverted TTL signals, no protocols or intelligence at all in the plotter so my job was dead simple. The 20 wire ribbon cable is the six button inputs, the eight stepper motor outputs and the pen solenoid output, plus a ground return. The operator buttons, for example to move the pen to the right, are sent to the computer whose driver would have to step the motor, rather than occurring locally in the plotter. Did I mention that it had zero digital logic chips or intelligence? Nine transistor drivers, a power supply and a few pullup and current limiting resistors, plus the steppers, solenoid, switches and buttons. > > If anyone else ever needs one, I have documented the cable assignments here so that they are searchable on the web. I will also mention the S-100 bus card assignments to the 8255A ports in case someone wants to use it with a retro machine through the interface card. > > Pins 1, 2, 4 and 5 are not connected. > > Pin 3 is ground > > Pin 6 is inverted TTL input, status of the "start/enter" button on the cover, port PA5 > > Pin 7 is the central "fast" button for pen movement, inverted TTL input, port PA4 > > Pin 8 is the "pen right" button, inverted TT input L, port PA3 > > Pin 9 is the "pen left" button, inverted TTL input, port PA2 > > Pin 10 is the "pen down" (actually rotate drum and paper up) button, inverted TTL, port PA1 > > Pin 11 is the "pen up" button, inverted TTL input, port PA0 > > Pin 12 is the output to activate the pen solenoid so that the pen is marking the paper, TTL 5V to activate, port PB4 > > Pin 13 is the output for one pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V on this and 0 on the other three, port PC3 > > Pin 14 is the output for a second pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC2 > > Pin 15 is the output for a third pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC1 > > Pin 16 is the output for a fourth pole of the drum movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PC0 > > Pin 13 is the output for one pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V on this and 0 on the other three, port PB3 > > Pin 14 is the output for a second pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB2 > > Pin 15 is the output for a third pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB1 > > Pin 16 is the output for a fourth pole of the pen left-right movement stepper motor, TTL 5V activates, port PB0 > > For those not familiar with stepper motors, they have four poles each with a ring of 25 'teeth' that will attract a permanent magnet on the rotor. The four rings are staggered so that in total there are 100 positions around the dial - 3.6 degrees per step. Energize one pole and the magnet is held to the nearest tooth of that pole. Drop that pole and activate another whose tooth is adjacent and the rotor swings one position to hold at the tooth on that pole ring. Interface is a simple four bit circular shift register with one high and three low bits circulating in the pattern. Shift it once and the motor moves one step in the associated direction. > > Carl > > ________________________________ > > This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the person to whom it has been sent, and may contain information that is confidential or legally protected. If you are not the intended recipient or have received this message in error, you are not authorized to copy, distribute, or otherwise use this message or its attachments. Please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Gartner makes no warranty that this e-mail is error or virus free. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 28 01:58:01 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:58:01 -0700 Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <011301ce153a$cab52a40$601f7ec0$@com> References: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> <011301ce153a$cab52a40$601f7ec0$@com> Message-ID: <512F0E09.6000903@landcomp.net> On 2/27/13 3:35 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Silly question, but why don't you download the Kaypro software from the CPM > link on your site? Then you could play with it, or at least test it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Dave Land > Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II > > Non-Linear Systems Kaypro II - 1983? model Serial No. 27171 Machine is > complete with 2 - 5.25" floppy drives and powers up, but I have no software > to test it fully. Has new keyboard cable and comes with power cord. Need to > unload some stuff to make room for some new office furniture that I just > acquired. > > $125.00 USD + shipping > > Shipping weight with packing would be around 30 - 33 lbs. > > http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/18-vintage-computer-st > uff/8-kaypro-ii-portable-computer > > -- > Dave Land > Land Computer Service > > Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > > > Cindy.. Mainly because I've been pretty sick lately, and I really don't want to mess with it. I know the software was there, and now that I have a machine that can actually write the disks, it really wouldn't be that much of a deal to do it, but I also have no good 5.25 floppies, especially SSSD floppies, and living from day to day at the moment, I really can't afford to buy any right now, plus I could definitely use the extra income. I'd be just as happy to see it go to a good home. :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 28 02:59:54 2013 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 01:59:54 -0700 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <9A4FA1695E0F455F87ABC75C4BEDA96C@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <9A4FA1695E0F455F87ABC75C4BEDA96C@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <512F1C8A.3050806@brouhaha.com> TeoZ wrote: > original IBM 5150 early model > When I try a VGA 8 bit card (or my Everex EGA set to CGA) I don't get a screen and it doesn't boot from the floppy The earliest PC BIOS didn't look for extension ROMs, so it can't deal with any displays that aren't 100% hardware compatible with CGA or MDA. Almost all VGA cards need some initialization before they can work in CGA or MDA mode, and that's done by the BIOS extension ROM on the card. Eric From christopher1400 at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 02:53:29 2013 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 00:53:29 -0800 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 07:14:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:14:43 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <22F15D0F-310C-4832-BC91-FB676854D0F6@liveblockauctions.com> References: <22F15D0F-310C-4832-BC91-FB676854D0F6@liveblockauctions.com> Message-ID: <611DC4B8-D3A3-46E5-A54E-E96687CEF678@gmail.com> On Feb 27, 2013, at 5:31 PM, Roe Peterson wrote: > >> >> A real PDP-11 has hardware flow control turned on in the interface. > > Not necessarily. Most DL-11 interfaces, notably the DL11-W, had no hardware flow control of any kind, or even modem control, and the 11w was probably the most common console interface for unibus pdp11s. It included the line clock. I was going to say something about that; certainly the SLUs on the KDF11-Bx don't have anything along those lines. I should know; I had to hack together SLU cables by rewiring PC internal serial cables, and if there was any kind of handshake line, I would have wired it up. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 07:23:46 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:23:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <512F042F.7020807@sydex.com> References: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <512F042F.7020807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <662383B9-AA30-4C0D-A6AF-D7004C86E83F@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, a little poking around reveals that the HG20f9 USB-to-ethernet gizmo, although it uses a Linksys VID (0x066b), isn't a Linksys product at all. > > Rather, it's a Chinese-origin device that uses the ASX88772B chip from Asix. The 0x20f9 PID doesn't appear to conflict with any existing Linksys device, so it appears that I'll be okay by simply adding the PID/VID pair to the existing AXE driver for OpenBSD. Is the device not Linksys-badged? It's not terribly uncommon for large companies (especially as large as Linksys has gotten) to buy the design from a design house and slap their labels and their own VID on. For example, I don't know how true it is at this point, but at least a few years ago basically all Apple and Microsoft USB mice were Logitech devices, including the iMac's infamous "hockey puck" mouse (it said so on the PCB). The VIDs were usually those of the company on the label. I think the comp.os.bsd.tech post I linked had some useful info regarding that for OpenBSD; in particular, there was a bugfix the poster had to import from FreeBSD's driver to fix a PHY problem. If you're finding communications problems, you might want to check it (relinked in case the original got buried). http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.openbsd.tech/21147 > There's an interesting approach to the costly problem of purchasing a VID license from USB-IF--just steal someone else's! Who's gonna know? > > Now why didn't I think of that? That's a common problem with USB (and PCI, and anything else that requires a centrally-assigned ID system). For example, to make a USB device that pretends to be a serial port, you need to either write drivers for everything under the sun (especially Windows, though there are filter drivers that make libusb work mostly like it does under Unix) or fake an FTDI VID/PID and duplicate its command set so you don't have to worry about distributing a driver with your thing. It would be nice if there were more generic classes like Mass Storage and HID, but they're sadly scarce. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 07:39:43 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:39:43 -0500 Subject: PDP8 Omnibus to USB interface In-Reply-To: <512E98D7.2010606@hachti.de> References: <512CFF9E.3080800@hachti.de> <512D468E.2030905@hachti.de> <7C748B97-5BB4-4664-9F00-B2376690538C@shiresoft.com> <512DC6AA.20408@hachti.de> <7EB7D54B-74ED-42FB-839B-2FEFF90FB9F2@gmail.com> <512E8364.40004@hachti.de> <512E98D7.2010606@hachti.de> Message-ID: <99A52A28-C8B7-4A25-BB91-28E7B0DF9F4B@gmail.com> On Feb 27, 2013, at 6:37 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Am 27.02.2013 23:55, schrieb David Riley: > >> If you're not doing the assembly yourself, that'll cost you as >> well. > Currently: hand soldering... > >> If you can, can you get scope traces of your inputs and >> outputs? >> ... >> you'd probably want to do it on a 100 MHz bandwidth or >> better scope. > I don't have such an oscilloscope. All I have is an old broken 10MHz phosphor oscilloscope. On that the traces look great... A good digital storage oscilloscope is one of the next thing that I have to earn with my designs :-) > Currently completely out of reach. Ah, well. I'll take some traces of mine under various conditions once it's actually built up, whenever that is. FWIW, I have a non-storage 100MHz analog oscilloscope that's good enough for plenty of things that I got relatively cheaply off eBay about 10 years ago. I don't know what the market for '80s vintage Tek scopes is in Germany, but they're usually in the 50- 100 USD range over here. I'd love a decent digital scope, but until I can afford something really nice, I'll stick with what I've got. - Dave From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 06:41:35 2013 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 01:41:35 +1300 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bit late, but I'm totally up for... let's say three... Omnibus-USB interfaces. Let me know details when they're fixed - price, ordering etc. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Feb 28 07:44:00 2013 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:44:00 -0500 Subject: Garbage on screen when using real VT100 on emulated PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <5AEA07AC-4939-467B-A4EC-99FD2DE445C5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130228134400.GP30992@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Earl Evans [130228 02:27]: > First off, thanks as usual for all the great discussion. I learn so much > from this list. > > I reduced the baud rate to 300, and had no problems. Increased to 1200, and > things kept working. I'll leave it at 1200 for now and keep playing around. > > Still, there's one thing doesn't make sense. When I'm using the VT100 in > Linux, connected to the same host computer at 9600 baud (just not running > SIMH), things function flawlessly. I can do large textual outputs. I can > view man pages and perform editing sessions with proper screen codes. No > corruption and no sign of the terminal struggling to keep up, even though > Linux is throwing characters at it way faster than the emulator could. But > go into SIMH, and it starts to fall apart. > > Oh well, more experimentation. > > - Earl Your tty from Linux probably has XON/XOFF flow control enabled. You could do an 'stty -F -a' and see if ixon is set. (And SIMH probably disables that setting.) Todd From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 28 08:43:41 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:43:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did they start from #1?). So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM Subject: Re: IBM 5150 >I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I believe you > need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's own BIOS, and > being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I assume yours will > work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. > > -- > C:\win > Bad Command Or File Name > C:\ From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 08:56:25 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:56:25 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5884317F-90B2-4252-A85C-29C5596EEDF3@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 9:43 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: > The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did they start from #1?). > So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? Or a new ROM? - Dave From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 28 09:06:15 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 08:06:15 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/27/2013 5:34 PM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I don't know how that got sent half-done! >> >> Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... >> > Why don't you create a device with the equivalent (at least) abilities > of the Raspberry Pi, but with your "enhancements" and sell it for $35. > Until that happens, I suggest you sit down, shut up and quit being a > cranky tonker. > > g. > I disagree here. That is mass market prices. I want a computer *Done* right. HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done right. Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 28 09:24:53 2013 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:24:53 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5884317F-90B2-4252-A85C-29C5596EEDF3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0344CB79FBF645ED819A1EBBE6F3B816@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Riley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:56 AM Subject: Re: IBM 5150 > On Feb 28, 2013, at 9:43 AM, "TeoZ" wrote: > >> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did they >> start from #1?). >> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? > > Or a new ROM? > > > - Dave Trying to keep it stock, but usable (so MDA is out unless I can find a suitable monitor). I do have an XT clone here if I wanted something "fancy". From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 09:59:16 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:59:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <0344CB79FBF645ED819A1EBBE6F3B816@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5884317F-90B2-4252-A85C-29C5596EEDF3@gmail.com> <0344CB79FBF645ED819A1EBBE6F3B816@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <512F7ED4.6020802@neurotica.com> On 02/28/2013 10:24 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did >>> they start from #1?). >>> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? >> >> Or a new ROM? >> >> >> - Dave > > Trying to keep it stock, but usable (so MDA is out unless I can find a > suitable monitor). I do have an XT clone here if I wanted something > "fancy". I think Cindy down in TX has some MDA-compatible monitors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 28 10:16:42 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:16:42 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <512F7ED4.6020802@neurotica.com> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5884317F-90B2-4252-A85C-29C5596EEDF3@gmail.com> <0344CB79FBF645ED819A1EBBE6F3B816@hd2600xt6a04f7> <512F7ED4.6020802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <006801ce15ce$ff09c640$fd1d52c0$@com> I do indeed! I don't have any original IBM mono working right now, but a young man is picking up the defective ones to repair and resell on Saturday. If you don't need IBM original, I have plenty of others. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 9:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 5150 On 02/28/2013 10:24 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did >>> they start from #1?). >>> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? >> >> Or a new ROM? >> >> >> - Dave > > Trying to keep it stock, but usable (so MDA is out unless I can find a > suitable monitor). I do have an XT clone here if I wanted something > "fancy". I think Cindy down in TX has some MDA-compatible monitors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 10:19:08 2013 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:19:08 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 28 Feb 2013 15:07, "ben" wrote: > > On 2/27/2013 5:34 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> I don't know how that got sent half-done! >>> >>> >>> Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... >>> >> Why don't you create a device with the equivalent (at least) abilities >> of the Raspberry Pi, but with your "enhancements" and sell it for $35. >> Until that happens, I suggest you sit down, shut up and quit being a >> cranky tonker. >> >> g. >> > > I disagree here. That is mass market prices. Yes, of course. That is the entire point of the exercise. How small & cheap can one make a reasonably modern computer that can surf the web and run modern graphical programming tools such as Scratch. The answer is, ?25 - and I think that is pretty impressive. > I want a computer *Done* right. > HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done right. What does that mean? Build quality doesn't really enter into it. It's a single, credit-card sized PCB. It has an under-specified processor & an over-specified graphics chip, but they are what was available cheaply from the day job of the designers. It's not as open as I'd like. But for the money, it is stunning. What would you have done differently? Bear in mind the price point. Equal or lower price only. What would you change? From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 28 10:41:56 2013 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:41:56 -0600 Subject: RGB -> VGA adaptors (was: Re: Tek 4317) Message-ID: (also sent to cctalk, but doesn't look like it came through; apologies if duplicates) Some searching on the Color Computer site leads to this: http://miba51.com/CoCo_VGA_Adpater.html Roy Justus' converter from 15.7 kHz RGB as generated by a CoCo3 to 31 kHz VGA. At one point, another was available from Chris Hawks http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.hardware.tandy.coco/63638 I have no experience with either, nor any connection except being a fellow CoCo user. Hope this helps. At 16:39 -0600 2/26/13, wrote: >Message: 12 >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:29:38 -0700 >From: Richard >To: cctalk >Subject: Re: Tek 4317 >Message-ID: > > >In article <201302260715.r1Q7FiJL027219 at ls-al.eu>, > Sander Reiche writes: > >> Richard wrote: >> > >> > I have other Tektronix hardware from this time frame and the video >> > output tends to be standard RGB (possibly synch-on-green) BNC >> > connectors. >> >> I'm still pursuing this, but it's taking its time. >> > > Are there any good converters for RGB? Like to VGA? > >Based on this picture, it appears that it would have RGB BNC connectors. > > >That implies synch-on-green video signalling. If you don't have a >synch-on-green RGB monitor, then you'll need an adapter to convert >that to VGA (which splits the synch signals out on a separate pin). >These shouldn't be too hard to find because synch-on-green was fairly >common. >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 28 10:45:17 2013 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:45:17 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/28/2013 9:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 Feb 2013 15:07, "ben" wrote: >> >> On 2/27/2013 5:34 PM, geneb wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>>> I don't know how that got sent half-done! >>>> >>>> >>>> Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... >>>> >>> Why don't you create a device with the equivalent (at least) abilities >>> of the Raspberry Pi, but with your "enhancements" and sell it for $35. >>> Until that happens, I suggest you sit down, shut up and quit being a >>> cranky tonker. >>> >>> g. >>> >> >> I disagree here. That is mass market prices. > > Yes, of course. That is the entire point of the exercise. How small & cheap > can one make a reasonably modern computer that can surf the web and run > modern graphical programming tools such as Scratch. > > The answer is, ?25 - and I think that is pretty impressive. > >> I want a computer *Done* right. >> HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done > right. > > What does that mean? > > Build quality doesn't really enter into it. It's a single, credit-card > sized PCB. > > It has an under-specified processor & an over-specified graphics chip, but > they are what was available cheaply from the day job of the designers. > > It's not as open as I'd like. > > But for the money, it is stunning. > > What would you have done differently? Bear in mind the price point. Equal > or lower price only. What would you change? > That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. Ben. Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system. Seymoure Cray From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 11:00:00 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:00:00 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <512F8D10.7060301@neurotica.com> On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: > Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net > (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. I think you just answered your own question. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 28 11:10:46 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:10:46 -0800 Subject: OT: Linux-to-OpenBSD device drivers In-Reply-To: <662383B9-AA30-4C0D-A6AF-D7004C86E83F@gmail.com> References: <1079101410-1361928082-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-81560066-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> <512F042F.7020807@sydex.com> <662383B9-AA30-4C0D-A6AF-D7004C86E83F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <512F8F96.70508@sydex.com> On 02/28/2013 05:23 AM, David Riley wrote: > Is the device not Linksys-badged? It's not terribly uncommon > for large companies (especially as large as Linksys has gotten) > to buy the design from a design house and slap their labels and > their own VID on. For example, I don't know how true it is at > this point, but at least a few years ago basically all Apple > and Microsoft USB mice were Logitech devices, including the > iMac's infamous "hockey puck" mouse (it said so on the PCB). > The VIDs were usually those of the company on the label. No badging at all; just a stick-on barcode label (ZC55232132ZC). The AXE OpenBSD port from FreeBSD has been around since 2004 and covers 27 different devices using the Asix chip family; from a variety of vendors, including Apple, Linksys, Acer, Logitech, Netgear and Belkin. The PID is not mentioned in the USB-IF database for Linksys. All in all, it look to be a case of "by their chips shall ye know them, not from their VID". I wonder if that's what USB-IF intended--I thought it was more a matter of "here's a VID/PID pair that tells you what's inside and what driver you need". Apparently not--it's just a fancy barcode for the product. At any rate, I'll add the VID/PID pair to the AXE driver and see what happens. I suppose this might be compared to a "Cheap Rolex Watch" type of thing, except that the insides really *are* those of a Rolex watch. A quick check of VID 0001 (Fry's Electronics!) apparently shows that the practice of counterfeiting IDs is apparently widespread: http://usb-ids.gowdy.us/read/UD/0001/7778 So why should anyone PAY for an ID from USB-IF? Many Chinese manufacturers apparently don't. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 11:12:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:12:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362071544.39032.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 6:43 AM PST TeoZ wrote: >The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did they start from #1?). Don't know where they started, but was told at a company I worked for years ago we had one somewhere under #100. >So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? I have a Paradise card that I thought was an early enhanced.CGA model, but might be EGA. I could test it if you're interested and I'd trade you for the Taxan card From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 11:18:53 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:18:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362022052.23820.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362022052.23820.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228091822.E91016@shell.lmi.net> > >Surely, we would NEVER have discussed the Raspberry Pi, if you hadn't > >asked about that damned Acorn! On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > I was only stating I was indirectly responsible for this current iteration :O Not to worry, We DO hold you responsible for it From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 11:31:04 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:31:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <512F0E09.6000903@landcomp.net> References: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> <011301ce153a$cab52a40$601f7ec0$@com> <512F0E09.6000903@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130228092303.O91016@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Dave Land wrote: > Cindy.. > Mainly because I've been pretty sick lately, and I really don't want to > mess with it. I know the software was there, and now that I have a > machine that can actually write the disks, it really wouldn't be that > much of a deal to do it, but I also have no good 5.25 floppies, > especially SSSD floppies, Kaypro is MFM! (DD!) SSDD floppies. (but, you do NOT want to use DSHD ("1.2M") floppies) SSSD, if that's what you had, would generally work. SSSD, SSDD, DSSD, and DSDD are all the same formulation (and 300 Oersted), but MFM (DD) require SLIGHTLY higher flux density than FM (SD) does. Good disks will work fine, but SD is not TESTED to the same standard. DSHD ("1.2M") (600 Oersted) floppies might even SEEM to work, but you may find your content gone when you turn your back! > and living from day to day at the moment, I > really can't afford to buy any right now, plus I could definitely use > the extra income. I'd be just as happy to see it go to a good home. :) Sorry about the hard times. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Feb 28 11:47:48 2013 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:47:48 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <512F9844.1080700@ptdprolog.net> On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote: > The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did they > start from #1?). I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the assembly line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what happened to PC #1 after he was done with it he said as far as he knew the same thing they did to all their internal use machines at the time. Stripped it for parts for warranty repairs. Mark > So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM > Subject: Re: IBM 5150 > > >> I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I believe you >> need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's own BIOS, and >> being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I assume yours will >> work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ > > -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2013 -http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 11:48:26 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228093645.V91016@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I believe you > need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's own BIOS, and > being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I assume yours will > work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. Be aware, however that the IBM ROMs are not pinout compatible with 2764 (although SUPER 5160 clone was). You would need to modify or make an adapter. I've heard that there existed an EPROM that WAS pinout compatible, but it wasn't easily available 30 years ago when I needed one. (actually 5, since I wanted to include the BASIC) There are some great, albeit possibly apocryphal, anecdotes regarding the SIXTH ROM socket. (present on IBM 5150) One story is that IBM asked Microsoft the size for the BASIC. Microsoft said "32K". IBM expected the size to "go over budget", and socketed for a spare 8K. Microsoft was offended, and made sure, including some padding, that the release version of the BIOS used EXACTLY 32768 bytes. Anybody remember USES of the SIXTH ROM socket? "MBI" (probably a different MBI) made a supplement ROM that added some printer configuration features, etc. I think that there still is one in my 16K 5150 Other "non-standard" ROMs: Todd Fischer? made a diagnostics ROM, to temporarily replace the BIOS ROM, and communicate through the serial port! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 28 12:11:13 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:11:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <20130228093645.V91016@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130228093645.V91016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > "MBI" (probably a different MBI) made a supplement ROM that added > some printer configuration features, etc. > I think that there still is one in my 16K 5150 > > Other "non-standard" ROMs: > Todd Fischer? made a diagnostics ROM, to temporarily replace the BIOS ROM, > and communicate through the serial port! > Has either one of those been imaged and saved somewhere? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 12:13:24 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:13:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362075204.71479.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 9:18 AM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> >Surely, we would NEVER have discussed the Raspberry Pi, if you hadn't >> >asked about that damned Acorn! >On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> I was only stating I was indirectly responsible for this current iteration :O > >Not to worry, >We DO hold you responsible for it Of course!! Everything that goes wrong on the list is my fault! Boy I tell ya! From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 28 12:18:02 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:18:02 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <512F9844.1080700@ptdprolog.net> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <512F9844.1080700@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <00a201ce15df$f281db90$d78592b0$@com> Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the driver and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If not enough room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used to do this for customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included small start up menus, etc. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of madodel Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net; Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM 5150 On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote: > The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did > they start from #1?). I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the assembly line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what happened to PC #1 after he was done with it he said as far as he knew the same thing they did to all their internal use machines at the time. Stripped it for parts for warranty repairs. Mark > So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM > Subject: Re: IBM 5150 > > >> I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I >> believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's >> own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I >> assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ > > -- From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2013 -http://www.warpstock.eu For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - http://www.os2voice.org "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly Investigation, 1938 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 12:24:45 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:24:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs Message-ID: <1362075885.77074.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >Anybody remember USES of the SIXTH ROM socket? Sorry no >"MBI" (probably a different MBI) made a supplement ROM that added >some printer configuration features, etc. >I think that there still is one in my 16K 5150 Such a big market for them old printers these days (ok a plotter is a sort of printer and the only way anyone's getting mine is wrenching it from my cold rigor mortised embrace. And would you believe I only payed 5 clams. How much joy can you get for 5$ these days???) >Other "non-standard" ROMs: >Todd Fischer? made a diagnostics ROM, to temporarily replace the BIOS ROM, >and communicate through the serial port! Ooh gimme dat! I want one seriously. What's his phone number? ROM monitors are standard on many Japanese puters, Canon, NEC. Just can't find any docs :( You can pop the hood and put in a new chip. But what about an extension via the all too popular casette port? > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 12:50:40 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 10:50:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the driver >and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If not enough >room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used to do this for >customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included small start up menus, >etc. Drivers = extension rom code? Interesting proposition. I'll wager it's not very straitforward. Numerous graphics cards had drivers for say Autocad and whatnot. But that's entirely different from the startup code needed to set up initial register values and whatever on the cards chips. It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, just don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as dos is starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do it. >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of madodel >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM >To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net; Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net >:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: IBM 5150 > >On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did >> they start from #1?). > >I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the assembly >line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what happened to PC #1 >after he was done with it he said as far as he knew the same thing they did >to all their internal use machines at the time. Stripped it for parts for >warranty repairs. > >Mark > > >> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM >> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 >> >> >> I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I >> believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's >> own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I >> assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ >> >> > > >-- > > From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel > > Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org > Warpstock Europe 2013 -http://www.warpstock.eu > > >For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - >http://www.os2voice.org > > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth >of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their >democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership >of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling private >power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the Monopoly >Investigation, 1938 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > From Mark at Misty.com Thu Feb 28 12:54:45 2013 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:54:45 -0500 Subject: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment In-Reply-To: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> References: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> Message-ID: <20130228185445.GA33995@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 08:12:09AM -0700, Dave Land wrote: > Don't know if anyone is interested, but I have a complete boxed set > of HPUX 11i Ver. 1 Enterprise Operating Environment complete with > Gold Pack updates, and Bonus Pack Software. Covers most all of the > PA-RISC machines capable of supporting HPUX 11i (9000 series > servers, workstations, etc.) I had bought it several years ago for a > J6750 workstation that I eventually changed over to Linux. You can > see the details here... > > http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/15-computer-related/7-hp-unix-enterprise-operating-e Hi, I have a pair of HP 9000 Series 700 workstations, but no complete OS. Do you know if this HPUX below might work with them? Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 28 13:04:56 2013 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:04:56 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> <512F899D.2020803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <512FAA58.10003@verizon.net> On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: > > That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern > programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. > Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net > (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. > Ben. > Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting. That and in7 is just a bigger pig. The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a pig and the graphics unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only how fast all the data gets there. However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the graphics load (screen) lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI and its very fast. I know this from running and ARM7 based system at 300mhz and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor is actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. Allison From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 13:40:48 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:40:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:04 AM PST Allison wrote: >On 02/28/2013 11:45 AM, ben wrote: >> >> That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. >> Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. >> Ben. >> > >Simple task specialization, and task overhead limiting. That and in7 is just a bigger pig. > >The average PC has many tasks running and even then unless the CPU is a pig and the graphics >unassisted doing a web browse is usually limited to only how fast all the data gets there. > >However for 80x24 text terminal the cpu overhead is very low and the graphics load (screen) >lower, linux give you that if you don't run the GUI and its very fast. I know this from running >and ARM7 based system at 300mhz and for text and compiling code for itself the limiting factor >is actually the disk subystem (a micro SD chip). > >To e the raspberry-pi is a great computing resource for embedded tasks. > >Allison What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 13:43:09 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xerox 16/8 was Re: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment Message-ID: <1362080589.13790.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hey Dave, is your Xerox fully functional? From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 28 13:53:53 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:53:53 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> We have IBM 5150s here. I can put almost any 8-bit ISA video card in it, and get the boot sequences on the screen. If it is supposed to be color, but comes up b/w, then I make a batch program called color.bat or whatever and reference the driver for the card, and presto, I have color. Some of these old cards came with drivers, and I have a very large collection of these very old drivers. Some of the old cards have switches or some other means to set the graphics mode and resolution, but others do not. There are very few old 8-bit cards that will not work on the 5150. I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set the colors and resolution. Since there were a number of cards, and thus a wide variety of options for the game programmers, they usually chose 8 or 16 colors, and told the user to choose 40 or 80 columns, and then you had a color game. Granted, circles and ovals looked like a bunch of tiny squares lined up to make a circle or oval, but they ran pretty well. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: IBM 5150 ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the >driver and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If >not enough room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used >to do this for customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included >small start up menus, etc. Drivers = extension rom code? Interesting proposition. I'll wager it's not very straitforward. Numerous graphics cards had drivers for say Autocad and whatnot. But that's entirely different from the startup code needed to set up initial register values and whatever on the cards chips. It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, just don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as dos is starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do it. >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of madodel >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM >To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net; >Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net >:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: IBM 5150 > >On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did >> they start from #1?). > >I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the >assembly line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what >happened to PC #1 after he was done with it he said as far as he knew >the same thing they did to all their internal use machines at the time. >Stripped it for parts for warranty repairs. > >Mark > > >> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM >> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 >> >> >> I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I >> believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's >> own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I >> assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ >> >> > > >-- > > From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel > > Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2013 > -http://www.warpstock.eu > > >For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - >http://www.os2voice.org > > "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the >growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their >democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership >of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling >private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the >Monopoly Investigation, 1938 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: >02/27/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: >02/27/13 > ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 28 13:55:39 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 11:55:39 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> On 2/28/2013 11:40 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. Raspian, the debian equivalent that runs on the Pi is just one of many OS's that run on that target. You have confused the target (arm 7) and platform (Raspberry Pi) with the OS. The things you speak of above have entirely to do with the OS and nothing to do with the platform or target, other than performance. The Rpi has nothing to do with firewall, virus scanning, or security in this context. It is true that many target processors have enhanced security and media extensions, but I do not think the Pi has such. And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:02:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:02:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <1362075885.77074.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362075885.77074.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228115503.F94521@shell.lmi.net> > >Anybody remember USES of the SIXTH ROM socket? On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Sorry no > >"MBI" (probably a different MBI) made a supplement ROM that added > >some printer configuration features, etc. > >I think that there still is one in my 16K 5150 > Such a big market for them old printers these days and THAT was the IBM version of the Epson MX80! > (ok a plotter is a sort of printer and the only way anyone's getting > mine is wrenching it from my cold rigor mortised embrace. Proposed transfer terms? Acceptable. > >Other "non-standard" ROMs: > >Todd Fischer? made a diagnostics ROM, to temporarily replace the BIOS ROM, > >and communicate through the serial port! > Ooh gimme dat! I want one seriously. What's his phone number? doubtful that it is still the same AREA CODE > You can pop the hood and put in a new chip. But what about an extension > via the all too popular casette port? Once you boot up, and go into cassette BASIC, then you can load almost any age-appropriate software through the cassette port. You could even connect two 5150s through the cassette port and transfer files. Any idea how long it would take to transfer Windoze7? (Windoze 3.10 or above will not run on a 5150.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:02:41 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362075204.71479.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362075204.71479.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228120220.X94521@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > Of course!! Everything that goes wrong on the list is my fault! Boy I > tell ya! Glad that you've figured that out. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:06:28 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <00a201ce15df$f281db90$d78592b0$@com> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <512F9844.1080700@ptdprolog.net> <00a201ce15df$f281db90$d78592b0$@com> Message-ID: <20130228120249.N94521@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the driver > and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If not enough > room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used to do this for > customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included small start up menus, > etc. The "driver" is a ROM. You'd have to start by writing a LOADABLE driver. It would be convenient to have another machine on hand while writing it, since the "driver" is to get the video to work. It would be MUCH MUCH easier to install a CGA or MDA card, and contact Cindy Croxton in Texas and buy one of her "9-pin monitors". From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:11:00 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> Message-ID: <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > We have IBM 5150s here. I can put almost any 8-bit ISA video card in it, > and get the boot sequences on the screen. The absolutely EARLIEST of the 16K 5150s don't check for ROMs on video cards during boot. The second? revision of the BIOS for the 16K 5150 took care of that. > If it is supposed to be color, > but comes up b/w, then I make a batch program called color.bat or whatever > and reference the driver for the card, and presto, I have color. Some of > these old cards came with drivers, and I have a very large collection of > these very old drivers. Good to know! > Some of the old cards have switches or some other means to set the graphics > mode and resolution, but others do not. There are very few old 8-bit cards > that will not work on the 5150. > I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the > 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set > the colors and resolution. Since there were a number of cards, and thus a > wide variety of options for the game programmers, they usually chose 8 or 16 > colors, and told the user to choose 40 or 80 columns, and then you had a > color game. Granted, circles and ovals looked like a bunch of tiny squares > lined up to make a circle or oval, but they ran pretty well. For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:13:11 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:13:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228121204.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually > returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, > just don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as > dos is starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do > it. Yeah, we used to. It is nice, however, to have boot video! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:17:52 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:17:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on > the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. > The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty > remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. The rpi is so popular that there presumably ARE targeted exoploits in development. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 14:25:43 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:25:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362083143.46445.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:53 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >We have IBM 5150s here. I can put almost any 8-bit ISA video card in it, >and get the boot sequences on the screen. If it is supposed to be color, >but comes up b/w, then I make a batch program called color.bat or whatever >and reference the driver for the card, and presto, I have color. Some of >these old cards came with drivers, and I have a very large collection of >these very old drivers. But again a driver is different from the post code contained in the extension rom. You can also change the screen from a black and white screen (not the same as an MDA screen) with a mode command in dos or screen in BASIC. >Some of the old cards have switches or some other means to set the graphics >mode and resolution, but others do not. There are very few old 8-bit cards >that will not work on the 5150. True. But there are a lot of cards out there that aren't CGA, MDA, EGA, PGC, VGA and they're seldom seen. >I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the >5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set >the colors and resolution. Since there were a number of cards, and thus a >wide variety of options for the game programmers, they usually chose 8 or 16 >colors, and told the user to choose 40 or 80 columns, and then you had a >color game. Granted, circles and ovals looked like a bunch of tiny squares >lined up to make a circle or oval, but they ran pretty well. Autocad didn't need drivers for CGA, but did to run advanced modes of some cards even if they did emulate or were really CGA but on steroids. You needed drivers to run A* in high res modes on the IBM Professional Graphics Controller, which starts right up as double scanned CGA (on a 5175 or multisync). Autocad had to provide drivers for bloody loads of cards if they wanted their s/w to work. Whether the high res modes were initialized by the driver or at startup along with the CGA's 6845 registers I couldn't tell you. But probably at POST. I did have a problem with the PGC card on one AT, but didn't investigate and the problem may have been that it was setup for MDA (do you set dip switches in an AT like a PC or PC/XT?). But I seem to recall putting in a VGA card subsequently. Does the VGA also look like an MDA to an early PC/XTG/AT? >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Chris Tofu >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:51 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: IBM 5150 > > > >------------------------------ >On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 10:18 AM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > >>Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the >>driver and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If >>not enough room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used >>to do this for customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included >>small start up menus, etc. > > Drivers = extension rom code? Interesting proposition. I'll wager it's not >very straitforward. Numerous graphics cards had drivers for say Autocad and >whatnot. But that's entirely different from the startup code needed to set >up initial register values and whatever on the cards chips. > It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually >returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, just >don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as dos is >starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do it. > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>On Behalf Of madodel >>Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 11:48 AM >>To: General at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net; >>Discussion at proxyz14.mailnet.ptd.net >>:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: IBM 5150 >> >>On 2/28/13 9:43 AM, TeoZ wrote: >> The ROM say IBM 1981, this unit must be early, Serial # 0155185 (did >> they start from #1?). >> >>I was told by David Both that he used the very first PC off the >>assembly line to write the PC Documentation. When I asked what >>happened to PC #1 after he was done with it he said as far as he knew >>the same thing they did to all their internal use machines at the time. >>Stripped it for parts for warranty repairs. >> >>Mark >> >> >> So I guess I have to find an original IBM CGA card then and all is well? >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Satterfield" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:53 AM >> Subject: Re: IBM 5150 >> >> >> I believe your VGA problem has to do with the older IBM ROMs, I >> believe you need the '82 BIOS to use a VGA card or any card with it's >> own BIOS, and being as I have a 16-64 KB 5150 with the newer BIOS I >> assume yours will work also, saying you have an EPROM programmer. >> >> -- >> C:\win >> Bad Command Or File Name >> C:\ >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >> From the eComStation Desktop of: Mark Dodel >> >> Warpstock 2013 - http://www.warpstock.org Warpstock Europe 2013 >> -http://www.warpstock.eu >> >> >>For a choice in the future of personal computing, Join VOICE - >>http://www.os2voice.org >> >> "The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the >>growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their >>democratic State itself. That in it's essence, is Fascism - ownership >>of government by an individual, by a group or by any controlling >>private power." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Message proposing the >>Monopoly Investigation, 1938 >> >>----- >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: >>02/27/13 >> >>----- >>No virus found in this message. >>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: >>02/27/13 >> > > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 28 14:25:57 2013 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:25:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <20130228115503.F94521@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362075885.77074.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130228115503.F94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Fred Cisin wrote: >> (ok a plotter is a sort of printer and the only way anyone's getting >> mine is wrenching it from my cold rigor mortised embrace. > > Proposed transfer terms? Acceptable. > Easy enough to do, just stop watering him. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 14:35:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:35:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362083721.47759.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:55 AM PST Jim Stephens wrote: > >On 2/28/2013 11:40 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> What about security? Does Rpi employ a firewall and virus scanning? And since the pi uses sd storage, it might make more sense to compare it's internet capabilities with a tablet or smart phone. >Raspian, the debian equivalent that runs on the Pi is just one of many OS's that run on that target. > >You have confused the target (arm 7) and platform (Raspberry Pi) with the OS. The things you speak of above have entirely to do with the OS and nothing to do with the platform or target, other than performance. > >The Rpi has nothing to do with firewall, virus scanning, or security in this context. It is true that many target processors have enhanced security and media extensions, but I do not think the Pi has such. > >And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. C: we were specifically discussing performance. People seem to have an inordinate attachment to this thing. And do I have to say again I'm not altogether panning it. But to state there's no concerns about virus' on a unit that's being touted as general purpose computer is insane. The performance benefits obviously have everything to do with what it's running (commonly running?). You could install an inefficient pig on rpi just like anything else. I'm not confusing anything. There's many reasons why things go slow and things go fast. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 28 13:59:38 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:59:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Feb 27, 13 11:11:12 pm Message-ID: > > > This will be little help, and I can't recall the exact details, but a > magazine I used to have described a circuit that IIRC put MDA on a > composite monitor. It was Micro something, and common enough but just > wasn't BYTE or PC Mag. And you built the thing by wire wrapping > w/machine pin sockets and pins that at the time IIRC you could only get > from Mouser. They were named as the source anyway. It's not hard to do, basically, XOR the suncs and combine with tehe video signal. I have used a slgihtly modified versio nof the video output circuit of the TRS-80 model 1 onoccasion. BUT this will not coverrt scan rates. You end up with a composite signal with an 18kHz horizotnal scan frequency if you start with an MDA singal. Some monuitors can be tweked ot handle that, many cannot. Of those that can, they might not like it too much,m you are stressing the horizotnal ouptu transisotr and flyback transoformer a bit. > Have you tried beeping? I think rom BASIC supports beeping or some The cassette mtoor control commands (is that MOTOR ON and MOTOR OFF?) are suitable too. > kind of rudimentary sound generation. With no floppy disk or h/d it > automatically loads BASIC. Hallelujah. It can be a useful diagnostic > tool.in some instances. When I had a floppy disk controller problem on mt PC/XT, I put the board on an extender, booted to ROM BASIC and used port acccess commanedst to fiddle eith the control registers on the FDC board. A bit of work with a logic probe and I found the faulty IC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 28 13:38:15 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512EABA5.9080802@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Feb 27, 13 04:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > > On 2/27/2013 2:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don;t you fidn it odd that 99.9% of such people don;'t ahve a clue as to > > what they are doing, and necer will. > 99.9% of the people I know have no idea what happens once the take a > phone off the hook, and talk into it. They don't care. People who are Actually, I am not sure I do. Mainly becuase I have no idea what sort of exchange I am linked to. > using computers like the Pi vs. ones like PC's and laptops are going to > follow. They just use them and don't care how they work. That is why > 500,000 (if that is accurate) are already sold. I don't think there are > half a million people who plan to learn how the arm chip is interfaced > thru the 3v gpio. they want to hook it to a tv ,keybard, etc. and just > use it. I thought the Rpi was intneded ot give people some udnerstnading of what goes on inside, to let them program, let them do simple hardware hacking (turnign on LEDs, etc). I feel everybody should learn to program. Not becuase they will get a job programming, but because it teaches them how to analyse a problem. That is a very valuable skill I also feel that it is a bad idea to use thigns you do not understnad. This does nto necessarily mean knowing every last detail of the insides. An example is a spreadsheet. It is very easy to get nonsensical results from a spreadsheet. Not because you mistpye the equations, or don;t understand how the cell references work. But something more fundamental. Becuasse you don't understand concepts like rounding errors, convergeance, etc. IMHO if you are going to use a spreadsheet you need to understnad this. It has been said that now that calcualtors are everywhere, kids do not need to leanr how to do long multiplication and division. I am nto sure I accept that (given that long multiplciaton and division have applciations in manipulating agebraic expresions too). But I am convinced that if you are goign to assume that clacualtors are everywhere you should teach kids why said calculators do not always give the right answers and how to avoid such problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 28 13:54:10 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:54:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <9A4FA1695E0F455F87ABC75C4BEDA96C@hd2600xt6a04f7> from "TeoZ" at Feb 28, 13 01:40:06 am Message-ID: > > I snagged an original IBM 5150 early model and have a couple questions abou= > t it. > > The unit turns on fine and tries to boot from the first floppy drive as far= > as I can tell, I don't have a MDA monitor and that is what card it came wi= > th. When I try a VGA 8 bit card (or my Everex EGA set to CGA) I don't get a= > screen and it doesn't boot from the floppy (I change the switches 5,6 from= > OFF/OFF to ON/ON for VGA/EGA). I tried a Taxan Super Color Graphics card b= > ut my CGA monitor just shows a few lines scrolling, seems like that card is= > n't standard CGA. IIRC, the very first BIOS versions did not support extension ROMs, and thus will only work with MDA nad CGA cards 9not even EGA). I woiuld try to fidn either an original MDA monitor or an original CGA card. > > Not sure how much RAM this thing has either. The 16-64K motherboard has 4 f= > ull banks, there is a 64K RAM card installed, and I have a MBI Monte Carlo = The ful lmnotherboard (4 rows of 16Kbit RAMs) gives you 64K. Then you have another 64K on the expansion card > multi function board with 4 banks full of RAM. Anybody have any information= Whgat sort of RAM chips. Most likely they are 64kbit, and 9 of them give you 64Kbytes of RAM (+ a partiy bit).. So my _guess_ without knowign the board is hat that is another 256K. So a total of 384K RAM. I have an idea that the early BIOS doesn;'t support 640K RAM either. I goes up to 544K or soemthing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 28 14:22:26 2013 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:22:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 28, 13 08:06:15 am Message-ID: > I disagree here. That is mass market prices. I want a computer *Done* right. > HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done right. Precisely! I would much rather pay $100 for somethingthat does the job han $25 for soemthign that doesn't. Going bnack 30 eyars, the BBC micro was expensive, sure. But it worked. The Sinclair Specturm was a lot cheaper, but it was nmt useful fo rthe soets of thigns I want to do. I do wonder, though, why you think the HP67 (1975-ish) was the last useable HP calcualtor. I feel the HP41 and HP71 families are also well-desngied. Current HP models, fo coruse, are not. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 14:41:33 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:41:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs Message-ID: <1362084093.77078.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:02 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >> >Anybody remember USES of the SIXTH ROM socket? >On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Sorry no >> >"MBI" (probably a different MBI) made a supplement ROM that added >> >some printer configuration features, etc. >> >I think that there still is one in my 16K 5150 > >> Such a big market for them old printers these days > >and THAT was the IBM version of the Epson MX80! > >> (ok a plotter is a sort of printer and the only way anyone's getting >> mine is wrenching it from my cold rigor mortised embrace. > >Proposed transfer terms? Acceptable. But the initial assailant/s might wind up as dead as me. Someone else might get it. But not them. >> >Other "non-standard" ROMs: >> >Todd Fischer? made a diagnostics ROM, to temporarily replace the BIOS ROM, >> >and communicate through the serial port! >> Ooh gimme dat! I want one seriously. What's his phone number? > >doubtful that it is still the same AREA CODE The send out an APB. >> You can pop the hood and put in a new chip. But what about an extension >> via the all too popular casette port? > >Once you boot up, and go into cassette BASIC, then you can load almost any >age-appropriate software through the cassette port. You could even >connect two 5150s through the cassette port and transfer files. Any idea >how long it would take to transfer Windoze7? (Windoze 3.10 or above will >not run on a 5150.) How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? Wonders never cease. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 14:45:42 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:45:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> But the burning question is could you fiddle with the extension rom code and use it as a loadable device driver? After all you could transfer rom BASIC to a disk file and run it that way. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:06 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the driver >> and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If not enough >> room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used to do this for >> customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included small start up menus, >> etc. > >The "driver" is a ROM. You'd have to start by writing a LOADABLE driver. >It would be convenient to have another machine on hand while writing it, >since the "driver" is to get the video to work. > >It would be MUCH MUCH easier to install a CGA or MDA card, and contact >Cindy Croxton in Texas and buy one of her "9-pin monitors". > > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 28 14:46:26 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:46:26 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <20130228120249.N94521@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362035472.81537.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <845B1E6AD0F34F0AA9D7C56CB26ECB28@hd2600xt6a04f7> <512F9844.1080700@ptdprolog.net> <00a201ce15df$f281db90$d78592b0$@com> <20130228120249.N94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00f201ce15f4$ad64a1e0$082de5a0$@com> We have the video cards, too. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 2:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IBM 5150 On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: > Why can't you just write a small batch program that references the > driver and the necessary commands, and put it on the startup disk? If > not enough room on a 360K, then you can use a second floppy. We used > to do this for customers all the time, 15 years ago. Also included > small start up menus, etc. The "driver" is a ROM. You'd have to start by writing a LOADABLE driver. It would be convenient to have another machine on hand while writing it, since the "driver" is to get the video to work. It would be MUCH MUCH easier to install a CGA or MDA card, and contact Cindy Croxton in Texas and buy one of her "9-pin monitors". ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 15:07:04 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:07:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: DOS video device drivers Message-ID: <1362085624.75535.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> What do they consist of? Is a brief description possible. Please. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 15:09:20 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362085760.68157.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:13 PM PST Fred Cisin wrote: >On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: >> It seems what you're saying is the pc will startup w/o video (usually >> returns an error, but you can use a pc w/a terminal off the rs232 port, >> just don't ask me the particulars). Then initialize the video card as >> dos is starting. Seems possible, would be interesting to see someone do >> it. > >Yeah, we used to. > >It is nice, however, to have boot video! So why didn't you use a terminal? You can run a video card and a terminal simultaneously, no? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 15:17:25 2013 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 21:17:25 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs don't work. Most folks run normal Linux with no AV why should the PI be different? On Feb 28, 2013 9:08 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: > > And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on > > the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. > > The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty > > remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. > > The rpi is so popular that there presumably ARE targeted exoploits in > development. > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 15:24:14 2013 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:24:14 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >> I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the >> 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set >> the colors and resolution... > > For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was using it on. When I was writing kids games for Software Productions (makers of "Micro Mother Goose", "Micro Habitats", and "Alphabet Beasts and Co", sold by Reader's Digest), we supported the early models of PC around the DOS 2.10 era, and our products only came in CGA versions (you could use a Mono adapter but the graphics weren't optimized for that so many adjacent "shades" of our colors/textures smeared together visually). Our Apple II products looked *loads* better than those early fiddlings with CGA. -ethan From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 15:44:05 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:44:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs Message-ID: <1362087845.20523.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:25 PM PST Tom Cruise wanna be wrote: >Easy enough to do, just stop watering him. My roots go deep enough and are strong enough to snap an F15 hull like an eggshell. >g. > >-- >Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 28 15:51:38 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:51:38 -0700 Subject: For Sale - Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <20130228092303.O91016@shell.lmi.net> References: <512E836D.60703@landcomp.net> <011301ce153a$cab52a40$601f7ec0$@com> <512F0E09.6000903@landcomp.net> <20130228092303.O91016@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <512FD16A.5050609@landcomp.net> On 2/28/13 10:31 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Dave Land wrote: >> Cindy.. >> Mainly because I've been pretty sick lately, and I really don't want to >> mess with it. I know the software was there, and now that I have a >> machine that can actually write the disks, it really wouldn't be that >> much of a deal to do it, but I also have no good 5.25 floppies, >> especially SSSD floppies, > > Kaypro is MFM! (DD!) > SSDD floppies. > (but, you do NOT want to use DSHD ("1.2M") floppies) > > SSSD, if that's what you had, would generally work. SSSD, SSDD, DSSD, > and DSDD are all the same formulation (and 300 Oersted), but MFM (DD) > require SLIGHTLY higher flux density than FM (SD) does. Good disks > will work fine, but SD is not TESTED to the same standard. > > DSHD ("1.2M") (600 Oersted) floppies might even SEEM to work, > but you may find your content gone when you turn your back! > >> and living from day to day at the moment, I >> really can't afford to buy any right now, plus I could definitely use >> the extra income. I'd be just as happy to see it go to a good home. :) > > Sorry about the hard times. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Thanks for the info Fred :) -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 15:58:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 13:58:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362088717.55140.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:59 AM PST Tony Duell wrote: >BUT this will not coverrt scan rates. You end up with a composite signal >with an 18kHz horizotnal scan frequency if you start with an MDA singal. >Some monuitors can be tweked ot handle that, many cannot. Of those that >can, they might not like it too much,m you are stressing the horizotnal >ouptu transisotr and flyback transoformer a bit. Are said xsistors readily replaceable with one that can handle a wider range? What ultimately happens if you push a flyback too far? Burnt winding? >> Have you tried beeping? I think rom BASIC supports beeping or some > >The cassette mtoor control commands (is that MOTOR ON and MOTOR OFF?) are >suitable too. Bulb/s? >When I had a floppy disk controller problem on mt PC/XT, I put the board >on an extender, booted to ROM BASIC and used port acccess commanedst to >fiddle eith the control registers on the FDC board. A bit of work with a >logic probe and I found the faulty IC. The only logic probe I ever owned, still own I think, was only good to 1mhz I think. Probably suitable for what you mentioned, but not everything on a pc obviously. Address and data is pulsed at what frequency? From michael at almegacy.com Thu Feb 28 15:58:54 2013 From: michael at almegacy.com (MICHAEL RANDALL) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:58:54 -0500 Subject: Looking for old HP PA7100LC and MOTO 88110 Message-ID: <0eaadc4737b53fed0f793483a0628818@mail.gmail.com> Dear cctalk: Please add the following post to your daily digest. Please let me know if you have any questions or if there are any issues. Very best regards, Mike *Wanted to purchase: Systems containing Motorola 88110 Processor or HP PA7100LC Processor: * ? Motorola MVME197DP or MVME197SP single board computers utilizing the original 88110 processor, or any system that utilized the Motorola 88110 processor (such as the MOTOROLA 900, 900R workstations or other company?s workstations (e.g., Data General AViiON, Harris Real Time Unix Servers)), originally sold in the United States on or before August 16, 1994. Proof of sale (receipt or the like) is highly preferred. Also interested in technical documentation on any of the above that shows a breakout of the serial number on the MVME197 (SP or DP) or on the 900 or 900R or on other systems that used the Motorola 88110 processor in order to decipher date of manufacture, country of manufacture, etc. ? HP Systems containing the PA7100LC processor, such as the 9000 E-class business servers (Models E25, E35, E45, E55), or the HP 9000 Series 700 Models 712/60 and 712/80i, or HP 9000 Models 715/64, 715/100, 725/100 or HP 9000 Model 743 or HP 9000 model 748i, or HP 3000 Series 9X8 servers such as HP 3000 Series 918 LX, HP 3000 Series 918 RX, HP 3000 Series 928 LX, HP 3000 Series 928 RX, HP 3000 Series 968 LX, HP 3000 Series 968 RX, HP 3000 Series 978 LX, HP 3000 Series 978 RX, originally sold in the United States on or before August 16, 1994. Proof of sale (receipt or the like) is highly preferred. Also interested in technical documentation on any of the above that shows a breakout of the serial number in order to decipher date of manufacture, country of manufacture, etc. From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 28 16:02:51 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:02:51 -0700 Subject: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment In-Reply-To: <20130228185445.GA33995@allie.home.misty.com> References: <512CD0C9.5070802@landcomp.net> <20130228185445.GA33995@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <512FD40B.5060102@landcomp.net> On 2/28/13 11:54 AM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 08:12:09AM -0700, Dave Land wrote: >> Don't know if anyone is interested, but I have a complete boxed set >> of HPUX 11i Ver. 1 Enterprise Operating Environment complete with >> Gold Pack updates, and Bonus Pack Software. Covers most all of the >> PA-RISC machines capable of supporting HPUX 11i (9000 series >> servers, workstations, etc.) I had bought it several years ago for a >> J6750 workstation that I eventually changed over to Linux. You can >> see the details here... >> >> http://www.landcomp.net/index.php/2012-11-28-23-34-35/15-computer-related/7-hp-unix-enterprise-operating-e > > Hi, > > I have a pair of HP 9000 Series 700 workstations, but no complete OS. > > Do you know if this HPUX below might work with them? > > Mark > > Mark, I don't think the 700 series are new enough/have enough resources to run 11i. You'd have to search HP's site or other resources to find out for sure, but I think HP-UX V.10 is probably the latest version that will run on them. -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From xmechanic at landcomp.net Thu Feb 28 16:04:38 2013 From: xmechanic at landcomp.net (Dave Land) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:04:38 -0700 Subject: Xerox 16/8 was Re: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment In-Reply-To: <1362080589.13790.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362080589.13790.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512FD476.9060305@landcomp.net> On 2/28/13 12:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Hey Dave, is your Xerox fully functional? > > Chris, Yes, it works very well as a matter of fact. :) ..and before you ask, that's the one I'll probably hang onto for a while, heh heh! D- -- Dave Land Land Computer Service Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 16:05:30 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:05:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362089130.27488.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 11:38 AM PST Tony Duell wrote: >It has been said that now that calcualtors are everywhere, kids do not >need to leanr how to do long multiplication and division. I am nto sure I >accept that (given that long multiplciaton and division have applciations >in manipulating agebraic expresions too). But I am convinced that if you >are goign to assume that clacualtors are everywhere you should teach kids >why said calculators do not always give the right answers and how to >avoid such problems. > >-tony When I was in hs, calculators weren't seen until or 12th grade. When it was impractical and too time consuming to work out every log, trig function, or laborious arithmetic operation. Kids have been bringing calculators to school for 2 decades probably, and I for one see that as a travesty. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Feb 28 16:17:31 2013 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:17:31 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 114, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512FD77B.4060909@hachti.de> > Bit late, but I'm totally up for... let's say three... Omnibus-USB interfaces. Oh, cool. Noted down. > Let me know details when they're fixed - price, ordering etc. I put you on my list. Kind regards Philipp -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 16:23:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:23:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362090230.92172.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:22 PM PST Tony Duell wrote: >I do wonder, though, why you think the HP67 (1975-ish) was the last >useable HP calcualtor. I feel the HP41 and HP71 families are also >well-desngied. Current HP models, fo coruse, are not. > >-tony In a mad fit I sold my 50g. I could see myself buying another one. The 75mhz Arm made the clearing of the stack tolerable (less then a second, 3-4 on the 49g. Zounds). You got to love something. You can't fix everything in this day and age. I'm told the TI-nspire CX CAS is more toy then anything. You gotta love something though. My 49g's have fallen on hard times. Can't figure out why my old TI86 doesn't work, I used it 3 times. Need a replacement. Need one bad... From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 16:35:36 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:35:36 -0600 Subject: Next warehouse day March 2 In-Reply-To: <014f01ce0eed$f78cf050$e6a6d0f0$@com> References: <014f01ce0eed$f78cf050$e6a6d0f0$@com> Message-ID: So just to comment, it's a two story collection of gear from years of service they've done. Pretty interesting stuff all over the place, some common, some from old mainframe setups, etc. Worth a look with some on hand cash for those in the area. Quick question for you Cindy, in the first floor back left of the store you had a lot of IBM and DEC server gear. I think there were two IBM 5362 systems and behind that was some huge other IBM looking object (the size of a table). What was that? I had meant to ask but there was so much other stuff to look at I got distracted lol. Thanks! - John On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 4:10 PM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus < sales at elecplus.com> wrote: > The next Kerrville warehouse day is March 2, starting 9AM. Those who have > come have gleaned many treasures J > > Please let me know if you plan to come, and what areas you are interested > in, so I can start digging things out for you. > > Bring a truck, bring a U-Haul, I need to clear some things out! > > Old Sperry server, RA82 hard drive, lots of terminals and keyboards, old > memory, what are people looking for? > > Old mono and color 9-pin monitors, early 15-pin monitors, daisy wheel and > dot matrix printers, etc. > > Most of this old equipment does not take to UPS shipping very well. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > (830)792-3400 phone (830)792-3404 fax > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2639/6114 - Release Date: 02/18/13 > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 16:37:50 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:37:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362091070.97379.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:46 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >We have the video cards, too. List please :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 16:42:30 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228142808.E95501@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > But the burning question is could you fiddle with the extension rom code > and use it as a loadable device driver? After all you could transfer rom > BASIC to a disk file and run it that way. It is possible that it consists of a replacement INT10h plus code that will repoint the 10h position of the IVT (Interrupt Vector Table) (00000:0040h?) to point to the entry point of the replacement. If so, then the "loadable driver" should contain the relevant memory resident code (replacement INT10h?), code to repoint the IVT 10h entry to point to WHEREVER it ended up in memory, and then TSR ("Terminate and Stay Resident") To avoid leaving anything unnecessary and extraneous behind taking up space in RAM, the "loadable driver" should be a .COM file that starts with a jump to the loader, then the code to remain resident, and then the loader, which will set the end point of the TSR portion to the entry point of the loader. That will waste the space of a 2 byte relative JMP. But, since leaving stuff resident is on 16 byte boundaries, we can live with that. It is also possible to do some clever tricks to load it in as an "Installable device driver", which means that it will come in with CONFIG.SYS, rather than wait for AUTOEXEC processing. On the Sales Tax Genie, I played around with creating a single .EXE file that could install as a TSR, install as a TSR through CONFIG.SYS, or run stand-alone either in DOS OR Windoze. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sales at elecplus.com Thu Feb 28 16:48:36 2013 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:48:36 -0600 Subject: DOS video device drivers In-Reply-To: <1362085624.75535.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362085624.75535.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <011301ce1605$be7be040$3b73a0c0$@com> I will drag out my old 8088 IBM ref book and get back to you on that. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tofu Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: DOS video device drivers What do they consist of? Is a brief description possible. Please. ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 16:54:41 2013 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:54:41 -0800 Subject: DOS video device drivers In-Reply-To: <1362085624.75535.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362085624.75535.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > What do they consist of? Is a brief description possible. Please. > Bytes. Yes. Thank you. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 16:55:32 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:55:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs In-Reply-To: <1362084093.77078.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362084093.77078.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228145203.R95501@shell.lmi.net> > >Once you boot up, and go into cassette BASIC, then you can load almost any > >age-appropriate software through the cassette port. You could even > >connect two 5150s through the cassette port and transfer files. Any idea > >how long it would take to transfer Windoze7? (Windoze 3.10 or above will > >not run on a 5150.) On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? > Wonders never cease. The other 5150 could run a CD-ROM drive. There are a few complications to doing so, such as needing DOS 3.10 or above if you don't want to write your own CD-ROM drivers, etc. I've never put a DVD drive on a 5150, but I don't think that the differences would matter much. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 17:06:57 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:06:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362085760.68157.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362085760.68157.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20130228145611.C95501@shell.lmi.net> > >It is nice, however, to have boot video! On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Chris Tofu wrote: > So why didn't you use a terminal? You can run a video card and a > terminal simultaneously, no? Because the stock serial port is not active until initialized. You would NOT have boot video on the terminal. You would not have the terminal AT ALL until DOS had finished booting. That is with STOCK hardware. Fischer's diagnostic ROM was usable with a non-standard serial card with hardwired configuration, that did not require software initialization. . . . also, Steve Ciarcia's Micromint PC clone had a live serial port, and was designed to work from a terminal! But, he later recanted, and provided an ISA card for people who wanted to use PC keyboard and video. BUT, in general, 5150 on a terminal, instead of CGA/MDA was a nice idea IN THEORY, but could not run "ANY" of the common software, since, due to performance issues, "everybody" wrote directly to the video RAM. You could therefore, run MASM and DeSmet C ("Personal C Compiler"), but NOT Turbo-C nor Quick-C -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 17:11:06 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:11:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130228150720.G95501@shell.lmi.net> > > > And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on > > > the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. > > > The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty > > > remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. > > The rpi is so popular that there presumably ARE targeted exoploits in > > development. On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Dave Wade wrote: > I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. > In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs > don't work. Most folks run normal Linux with no AV why should the PI be > different? The level of additional interest WILL bring in some who WILL put in the effort to engage in vandalism. The current shortage of malware WILL eventually be addressed. Being different from the current targets provides only a very brief respite before NEW AND IMPROVED malware gets developed. "But, it could NEVER happen HERE!" Yeah. right. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 28 17:12:30 2013 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:12:30 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> On 2/28/2013 1:17 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. > In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs > don't work. Most folks run normal Linux with no AV why should the PI be > different? > On Feb 28, 2013 9:08 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Jim Stephens wrote: >>> And unless you go out of your way to run windows or macos emulations on >>> the rpi, the virus is pretty much astronomically useless to discuss. >>> The chances of any targeted virus to an arm at this point is pretty >>> remote, though I'm sure there are linux exploits that may be applies. >> The rpi is so popular that there presumably ARE targeted exoploits in >> development. I have another reply to the AV thread, but worth saying it here because that reply will be moderated and will be a while coming. The lack of exploits does not mean there will be none. There are still vulnerabilities which could work on a linux machine as well as any of the PC or Macos ones as well as any. Unless you have a custom build with a tool which specifically defends against binary exploits there will always be ways to get into a machine as long as people keep coding and leaving buffer overflow and other attack vectors. the question is whether it is worth the time of someone who is creating exploits to create something and hope it mates up with a host that is vulnerable. I will run AV on linux when there are more chances of someone hitting my specific machine, but so far there are not enough to bother. The fact that if 1 windows machine has a problem millions do makes them the target. And the fact that microsoft seems to be pretty good at not fixing the problems as a root cause. That is another discussion. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 28 17:15:38 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:15:38 -0800 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <512FE51A.7020407@sydex.com> On 02/28/2013 01:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I > personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and > that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was > using it on. I used both OrCAD and Schema on a 5160 with Hercules monochrome graphics. It worked just fine and I think I even still have the floppies with a few projects on them. CGA graphics resolution is pretty terrible, but HGA approaches EGA, just without the color. The Graphics Plus included a font RAM and support for a 4096-character display font. I'll have to look at some of the other CAD software ("CADKey") from about that time to see if it runs on a 5160. I'm guessing that the answer is "yes". --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 17:21:07 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:21:07 -0600 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <512F7267.5090700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On the topic of alternatives still.. the other units I was looking at which may be more powerful but seem to be plagued with heat issues were the little usb google-tv devices. I mean look at this thing.. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009A6P2VC/ref=s9_simh_gw_p23_d0_i6?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=02T6FQZHSZ490P94P09Q&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1389517282&pf_rd_i=507846 (ugly url complements of Amazon. Apologies compliments of me) but it's a USB dual core ARM computer, 1GB RAM and 4GB ROM with hdmi, wifi, usb, etc .. and it's $43 shipped. Serious competition to the Pi specs. This is really the first I've heard of these (probably read about it in the news before they came to fruition (awesome raspberry pun there!)) but there are a BUNCH for that similar price range and free shipping from Amazon. Like I said, the problem is the size being too new for the technology and I see lots of folks saying it didn't work or overheated. Pretty common with new tech though but amazing for the price. Alternatively if we're just doing microcontroller intros to kids which I sorta think is relevant, Lady ADA released something she calls a Floria https://www.adafruit.com/products/659 (and I really am confused why she sorta just ripped off but I'm happy she gave credit to Leah Buechley?s http://web.media.mit.edu/~leah/LilyPad/ ) but it's what we should probably start calling YAAB (yet another arduino board) but same thing. An open circuitry interface to microcontroller programming with a bunch of add-on devices. The only part I see as good for the Pi is I don't see many overheating reviews. But I hear so many comments about chipset issues it makes me nervous. I'm really just interested in some low power streaming device that can either play videos I've converted myself or host a dlna server for my devices that can then do the playing themselves but I'm not sure what out there is powerful enough. I and other friends have already seen a few corporate devices fail to perform as advertised. I (for some stupid reason (price and a temporary lapse in judgement)) last went out to buy a faster Linksys router a few years ago and was going for one with a USB jack thinking I could set up an external drive to the router and host files or use it's dlna itself but I ended up buying a Netgear with the same ability instead. It worked sort of but once the number of files on the drive get to a certain count I guess it doesn't have enough memory to update the database and stops listing new media on the dlna server. It used to crash the router when that happened and lots of complaints in the forums and firmware updates from the vendor later it never really was resolved. Unusable for what I bought it for and disappointing. Now adays I KNOW a computer can handle it but I'd still like a lower power device near the TV as a preferred method than a server just for videos. I thought the Pi might do the trick. One of these google devices might too but I can't afford to keep tinkering around with failed promises. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 17:45:40 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:45:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20130228151138.J95501@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG! CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out. They make great neighbors! You can always update several generations worth of graphics resolution technology with their DISCARDED "obsolete" stuff! (Such as Wyse700/Amdek1280: 1280 x 800 B&W using it's own proprietary card, and supported by Windoze, Ventura, RageMaker, Paint, etc.) Got a bunch of those for free before the first time that I bought an EGA! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 17:47:41 2013 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:47:41 -0800 Subject: Looking for old HP PA7100LC and MOTO 88110 In-Reply-To: <0eaadc4737b53fed0f793483a0628818@mail.gmail.com> References: <0eaadc4737b53fed0f793483a0628818@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <512FEC9D.9020302@gmail.com> On 2/28/2013 1:58 PM, MICHAEL RANDALL wrote: > Dear cctalk: > > Please add the following post to your daily digest. Please let me know if > you have any questions or if there are any issues. > > Very best regards, > > Mike > > > Why is the date and bill of sale so, important ? This some sort of patent deal or just a very picky collector ? From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 11:50:12 2013 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:50:12 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: Message: 25 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 09:45:17 -0700 From: ben To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <512F899D.2020803 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 2/28/2013 9:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote: On 28 Feb 2013 15:07, "ben" wrote: On 2/27/2013 5:34 PM, geneb wrote: On Wed, 27 Feb 2013, Tony Duell wrote: I don't know how that got sent half-done! Problaby becuase you are using some modern device.... Why don't you create a device with the equivalent (at least) abilities of the Raspberry Pi, but with your "enhancements" and sell it for $35. Until that happens, I suggest you sit down, shut up and quit being a cranky tonker. g. I disagree here. That is mass market prices. Yes, of course. That is the entire point of the exercise. How small & cheap can one make a reasonably modern computer that can surf the web and run modern graphical programming tools such as Scratch. The answer is, ?25 - and I think that is pretty impressive. I want a computer *Done* right. HP calculators ~ 1975 was the last computing device I have seen done right. What does that mean? Build quality doesn't really enter into it. It's a single, credit-card sized PCB. It has an under-specified processor & an over-specified graphics chip, but they are what was available cheaply from the day job of the designers. It's not as open as I'd like. But for the money, it is stunning. What would you have done differently? Bear in mind the price point. Equal or lower price only. What would you change? That "low price is best trend" I would change. For me a modern programing tool is "text editor" and 80x24 text screen on 15" display. Explain to me why a cheap PC in my home can't keep up to the net (windows 7) and a credit card computer can do better for surfing. Ben. "Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." Seymoure Cray ****************************************************************************************************** Past and the future of computing is forever changing as what we believe to be true of the past isn?t always right. Something comes along and revision is necessary. One more thing; I apologize for bringing Computing the old way - Is it a thing of the past? but I have to add this: Is the Raspberry Pi something we want to experience? Can we teach kids how computers work today? Is there a need to do this! As far as I can determine they want them to work when they turn them on; not to know how they do something! Just do it! That?s their attitude and mass-marketers know this. Sorry about this rant. I?ll add this: No Internet; no multi-media may be what people want: A 1980?s computing technology where word processing, spreadsheet(ing) and database(ing) is just what many want! Here are three quotes that sum up my view: Pliny the Younger wrote: Historia quoquo modo scripta delectat. History, however it is written, always pleases(!). And paraphrasing Gotschke, the microcomputer was pre-determined, ?unfolded as by fate, as by a biological metamorphosis?. And finally, Ted Nelson, of Computer Lib fame, writes: ?The strange thing is that all of this took so long(development of the personal computer) and then happened so suddenly.? Murray-- From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Feb 28 16:04:13 2013 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:04:13 -0800 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <1362083721.47759.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362083721.47759.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <512FD45D.1030908@jwsss.com> On 2/28/2013 12:35 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > But to state there's no concerns about virus' on a unit that's being touted as general purpose computer is insane. My point is that the linux running on any target / platform will be targeted. to say the Pi is a target is insane. I suppose you will be able to run an exploit against it when it has Plan 9 running on it? From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:21:44 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:21:44 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6714E865-BF07-44CE-9971-99DE50339B44@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > But the burning question is could you fiddle with the extension rom code and use it as a loadable device driver? After all you could transfer rom BASIC to a disk file and run it that way. Probably not; extension ROMs usually provide services to the BIOS (or hook interrupts used by the BIOS and run in place of the BIOS routines) while DOS drivers tend to provide services directly to DOS. It's akin to the difference between a driver and an application (but obviously not exactly the same). Whether you could run a script from autoexec.bat or config.sys to execute expansion ROM code after DOS boot is another question, but I have no idea how well that would work after the BIOS has already handed over control to the OS (I suspect not so well, but I don't know for sure). You can certainly try jumping to the code location in DEBUG or the like. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:25:17 2013 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2013 00:25:17 +0000 Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1293899327-1362097516-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1095560464-@b3.c21.bise6.blackberry> Its not going to be rpi specific but it will be at risk for any standard exploit for services it hosts. You could pwn it via apache, dns, mail server, etc but again its mostly app vulnerabilities and no real blame to the product itself. For protection it shouldn't have any problem running simple iptables (firewall rules), clamav (on demand virus scanner) if desired or I suppose even snort or other ids/ips although thatd certainly take away from the limited resources. Either way it should have all the charm of the ported OS. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:25:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:25:22 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4CBF38C3-41B7-4028-B8F5-504C5CE92428@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:17 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > I haven't heard of any. It's a modern linux and most tasks run as non-root. > In addition on its a non-standard chip set so standard buffer over runs > don't work. Er, what? Buffer overruns are the same regardless of what chipset you run, at least as long as your stack grows downwards (most stacks, including ARMs' stacks, do). Stack headspace randomization, which is generally a software thing, can cause the code intended to be executed by a buffer overrun fail (since there's no static offset to branch to), but it's not a feature of the hardware on most machines. Side note: are there any architectures which provide hardware stack randomization? Seems like an unlikely feature to implement, but it would make sense since it tends to hurt performance to a measurable degree. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 18:28:49 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:28:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xerox 16/8 was Re: HPUX Enterprise Operating Environment Message-ID: <1362097729.33889.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Got one too :) But the "box" doesn't work, too well anyway. I just figured I could hit ya up for a rom image if necessary. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 2:04 PM PST Dave Land wrote: >On 2/28/13 12:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> Hey Dave, is your Xerox fully functional? >> >> >Chris, > >Yes, it works very well as a matter of fact. :) ..and before you ask, >that's the one I'll probably hang onto for a while, heh heh! > >D- > >-- >Dave Land >Land Computer Service > >Check out my site at http://www.landcomp.net From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 18:33:16 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:33:16 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <63D98D87-5873-468A-A604-92EA5D6048EB@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the >>> 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set >>> the colors and resolution... >> >> For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. > > I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I > personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and > that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was > using it on. The original AutoCAD (for some degree of the term "original") was developed for DOS on 8086 and CP/M-80 (plus early development for the TI 9900). John Walker has a document-based history of AutoCAD development here: http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ I think my favorite document is this one: http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/section2_10_8.html I'm still a little upset that we've ended up (OK, not ALL of us) with the 8086 as the dominant processor of the computing world. In any case, I would imagine that the DOS version of AutoCAD in 1982 wasn't using anything better than CGA. Some of the dev notes for AutoCAD-80 note that work got done faster because the CP/M port relied on more intelligent output devices that needed less low-level control than the IBM and Victor 9000 ports. - Dave From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 28 19:03:13 2013 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2013 01:03:13 +0000 Subject: Qudos MINICHIP / Quickchip ECAD and Ferranti ULA docs In-Reply-To: References: <512D6096.6040306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <512FFE51.8000306@philpem.me.uk> On 27/02/13 08:13, Dave Caroline wrote: > I have a Ferranti quick reference guide circa 1986 > in it they refer to the ULAs as DS, R, P or G series (ASIC1) I've seen that online -- someone scanned it. I think it's in the "EAB" (ElectronicsAndBooks) archive. > also the VAX software supporting is was called ULACAD I seem to recall that used a connection to Ferranti's computer system to do the place-and-route work... It'd be interesting to find a copy of that software, but I doubt there are any copies left... :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 19:46:21 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: DOS video device drivers Message-ID: <1362102381.3115.BPMail_high_carrier@web141102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> That...might be a good place to look! I may already have every IBeeMer refernce manual known to man (or wimminz). Also got another journal thing on the subject. Where is that thing... But what I was looking foris more or less a skeleton flowchart description. Maybe if I hum and contemplate Josh's goofy answer, I'll come to the discovery that it's sufficient. NOT. ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 2:48 PM PST Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >I will drag out my old 8088 IBM ref book and get back to you on that. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Chris Tofu >Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:07 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: DOS video device drivers > > >What do they consist of? Is a brief description possible. Please. > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > >----- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 2013.0.2899 / Virus Database: 2641/6136 - Release Date: 02/27/13 > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 19:50:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:50:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 ROMs Message-ID: <1362102653.32781.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> How would such late versions of Windoze wind up on the other 5150? >> Wonders never cease. > >The other 5150 could run a CD-ROM drive. There are a few complications to >doing so, such as needing DOS 3.10 or above if you don't want to write >your own CD-ROM drivers, etc. I've never put a DVD drive on a 5150, but >I don't think that the differences would matter much. Better yet, let's test the premise in a non anachronistic real world way by transferring Winders 7 to o roughly 126,000 cassette tapes. You can start w/o me. I'll join in in about 6 months. My advice is to get the fastest 8088 you can find. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 28 20:18:51 2013 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:18:51 -0700 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <512FE45E.5000602 at jwsss.com>, Jim Stephens writes: > The lack of exploits does not mean there will be none. There are still > vulnerabilities which could work on a linux machine as well as any of > the PC or Macos ones as well as any. How quickly people forget that the first major internet (unintentional) DDOS attack was all against unix machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 28 20:56:08 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:56:08 -0800 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <20130228145611.C95501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362085760.68157.BPMail_high_carrier@web141101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20130228145611.C95501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <513018C8.5000906@sydex.com> On 02/28/2013 03:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That is with STOCK hardware. > Fischer's diagnostic ROM was usable with a non-standard serial card > with hardwired configuration, that did not require software initialization. A friend and I marketed a replacement for the MDA card on a 5150/5160 that used a Z80 and a bunch of parts to allow the PC user to replace their display card and hook up a VT-100/220 style terminal--and switch or split-screen the PC data with other serial data (say, from a minicomputer) on the terminal. It also took the terminal keyboard codes and translated them to 5150 scan codes. It had a certain appeal, but wasn't fast enough to work effectively with a 5170 and would not do graphics. I still have the board (and a few abandoned prototypes). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 28 20:59:26 2013 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:59:26 -0800 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <20130228151138.J95501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228151138.J95501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5130198E.4010902@sydex.com> On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. > > There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG! > > CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out. Even more, they were early adopters of CAD workstations (Sun, Daisy, Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 28 21:13:27 2013 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:13:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <6714E865-BF07-44CE-9971-99DE50339B44@gmail.com> References: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6714E865-BF07-44CE-9971-99DE50339B44@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130228185548.H95501@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: > Whether you could run a script from autoexec.bat or config.sys to > execute expansion ROM code after DOS boot is another question, but > I have no idea how well that would work after the BIOS has already > handed over control to the OS (I suspect not so well, but I don't > know for sure). You can certainly try jumping to the code location > in DEBUG or the like. Trivial nit (learned the hard (usual) way): It is probably a CALL, not a JMP. At the end of the code, it probably does a RETF (pop values off of the stack for CS and IP) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 21:24:13 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:24:13 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <63D98D87-5873-468A-A604-92EA5D6048EB@gmail.com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> <63D98D87-5873-468A-A604-92EA5D6048EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51301F5D.7020305@neurotica.com> On 02/28/2013 07:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > I'm still a little upset that we've ended up (OK, not ALL of us) > with the 8086 as the dominant processor of the computing world. Nope, not all of us. ;) > In any case, I would imagine that the DOS version of AutoCAD in > 1982 wasn't using anything better than CGA. Some of the dev > notes for AutoCAD-80 note that work got done faster because the > CP/M port relied on more intelligent output devices that needed > less low-level control than the IBM and Victor 9000 ports. I ran AutoCAD 2.17B for a long while in the mid-80s on an 8MHz 8088. My display adapter was a CGA. It wasn't pretty (there was nothing at all that was "pretty" about CGA output) but it was usable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 21:29:46 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:29:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362108586.92271.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 4:21 PM PST David Riley wrote: >On Feb 28, 2013, at 3:45 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> >> But the burning question is could you fiddle with the extension rom code and use it as a loadable device driver? After all you could transfer rom BASIC to a disk file and run it that way. > >Probably not; extension ROMs usually provide services to the BIOS (or >hook interrupts used by the BIOS and run in place of the BIOS >routines) while DOS drivers tend to provide services directly to DOS. >It's akin to the difference between a driver and an application (but >obviously not exactly the same). I would have guessed extension roms contain raw independent code. Largely just writing values to port addtesses >Whether you could run a script from autoexec.bat or config.sys to >execute expansion ROM code after DOS boot is another question, but >I have no idea how well that would work after the BIOS has already >handed over control to the OS (I suspect not so well, but I don't >know for sure). You can certainly try jumping to the code location >in DEBUG or the like. Which lead me to ask what a video device driver is/does. Presumably when you type Mode co,80 iirc, or screen 1 in basic, you're assigning different values to ports ie fiddling with say the 6845's registers, thereby creating another screen on the fly. Unless I'm wrong. But if not, isn't that kind of what a dd does? There's bound to be more then that going on. But code is code, regardless of what stage of the game you're in, start up, boot up, os fully installed. The os only has as much control as you allow it. You communicate with dos, but s/w at least can manipulate the h/w. Which is why s/w has too much power under dos. When dos transfers control to a bunch of code, it's boss. > >- Dave > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 21:33:35 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 19:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362108815.65715.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 4:33 PM PST David Riley wrote: >On Feb 28, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote: >>> I have never seen Autocad for a 5150, but there are color games for the >>> 5150, and if you have a color monitor, the games have code in them to set >>> the colors and resolution... >> >> For some reason, CGA AutoCad never really caught on. >> >> I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. The oldest program I >> personally used was OrCAD, and that was in the 5170 PC-AT days, and >> that was, IIRC, EGA, or at least that's what was on the machine I was >> using it on. > >The original AutoCAD (for some degree of the term "original") was >developed for DOS on 8086 and CP/M-80 (plus early development for >the TI 9900). John Walker has a document-based history of >AutoCAD development here: > >http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/ > >I think my favorite document is this one: > >http://www.fourmilab.ch/autofile/www/section2_10_8.html > >I'm still a little upset that we've ended up (OK, not ALL of us) >with the 8086 as the dominant processor of the computing world. > >In any case, I would imagine that the DOS version of AutoCAD in >1982 wasn't using anything better than CGA. Some of the dev >notes for AutoCAD-80 note that work got done faster because the >CP/M port relied on more intelligent output devices that needed >less low-level control than the IBM and Victor 9000 ports. > > >- Dave And unless I'm mistaken, Autocad ran on a cga equipped 5150 through version 7 or 9. I think it was 9 I got from the job. And all they had in my dept was the early 5150. Later upgraded it to a hybrid 286. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 21:56:40 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:56:40 -0500 Subject: Raspberry Pi In-Reply-To: References: <1362080448.98569.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <512FB63B.3050409@jwsss.com> <20130228121659.B94521@shell.lmi.net> <512FE45E.5000602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <513026F8.8080508@neurotica.com> On 02/28/2013 09:18 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <512FE45E.5000602 at jwsss.com>, > Jim Stephens writes: > >> The lack of exploits does not mean there will be none. There are still >> vulnerabilities which could work on a linux machine as well as any of >> the PC or Macos ones as well as any. > > How quickly people forget that the first major internet > (unintentional) DDOS attack was all against unix machines. > > Yep. The difference is...those problems were resolved. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 22:13:53 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:13:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Raspberry Pi Message-ID: <1362111233.28081.BPMail_high_carrier@web141105.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 6:18 PM PST Richard wrote: > >In article <512FE45E.5000602 at jwsss.com>, > Jim Stephens writes: > >> The lack of exploits does not mean there will be none. There are still >> vulnerabilities which could work on a linux machine as well as any of >> the PC or Macos ones as well as any. > >How quickly people forget that the first major internet >(unintentional) DDOS attack was all against unix machines. W/o looking at your citation, I'll guess it was at a time when there was little else on the internet (arpanet?). > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 28 22:15:37 2013 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 20:15:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 5150 Message-ID: <1362111337.92010.BPMail_high_carrier@web141103.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ------------------------------ On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 6:56 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote: >A friend and I marketed a replacement for the MDA card on a 5150/5160 that used a Z80 and a bunch of parts to allow the PC user to replace their display card and hook up a VT-100/220 style terminal--and switch or split-screen the PC data with other serial data (say, from a minicomputer) on the terminal. It also took the terminal keyboard codes and translated them to 5150 scan codes. It had a certain appeal, but wasn't fast enough to work effectively with a 5170 and would not do graphics. > >I still have the board (and a few abandoned prototypes). I want them. All of them. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 28 22:17:10 2013 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:17:10 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <5130198E.4010902@sydex.com> References: <1362077440.53716.BPMail_high_carrier@web141106.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <00d101ce15ed$55f9cdb0$01ed6910$@com> <20130228120634.Q94521@shell.lmi.net> <20130228151138.J95501@shell.lmi.net> <5130198E.4010902@sydex.com> Message-ID: <51302BC6.9010909@neurotica.com> On 02/28/2013 09:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 02/28/2013 03:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I'm sure there's very little if any CAD for CGA. >> >> There WAS some, but not much, and NOT FOR LONG! >> >> CAD users tended to be EARLY adopters of higher res video as it came out. > > Even more, they were early adopters of CAD workstations (Sun, Daisy, > Apollo,...). PeeCees were for weenies. Funny how some things never change. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 28 22:25:22 2013 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 23:25:22 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <20130228185548.H95501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1362084342.8701.BPMail_high_carrier@web141104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <6714E865-BF07-44CE-9971-99DE50339B44@gmail.com> <20130228185548.H95501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3168FF46-5EAB-44D2-B563-574CAB27B18F@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2013, at 10:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 28 Feb 2013, David Riley wrote: >> Whether you could run a script from autoexec.bat or config.sys to >> execute expansion ROM code after DOS boot is another question, but >> I have no idea how well that would work after the BIOS has already >> handed over control to the OS (I suspect not so well, but I don't >> know for sure). You can certainly try jumping to the code location >> in DEBUG or the like. > > Trivial nit (learned the hard (usual) way): > It is probably a CALL, not a JMP. At the end of the code, it probably > does a RETF (pop values off of the stack for CS and IP) Well, yes. I was being imprecise. Not such a trivial nit when it comes to making it work! I always liked the fact that when you told the Apple II monitor to "go" to a location, it meant a call and not a jump. I'm not sure why that came as a surprise to me, but I've certainly used plenty of modern bootloaders that don't do that. - Dave