From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 1 03:04:30 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 02:04:30 -0600 Subject: VCF Midwest 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5041C18E.7000804@brouhaha.com> Jason T wrote: > Three weeks to go until the seventh annual Vintage Computer Festival > Midwest! Darn! Same weekend as HHC 2012. http://hhuc.us/2012/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Sep 1 10:54:31 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 08:54:31 -0700 Subject: ISO Viewlogic Workview In-Reply-To: <503F9C4B.9010101@bitsavers.org> References: <503ECB24.7010802@bitsavers.org> <503F1530.6050804@brouhaha.com> <503F9C4B.9010101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Aug 30, 2012, at 10:00 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/30/12 12:24 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Al Kossow wrote: >>> Someone is trying to look at some old schematics from around 1992 and >>> asked me if I had a copy. >> >> Ah, the joys of proprietary file format. >> > > I spotted this. We'll see if it can be made to work. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/190504567306 > > >> I can't help with that, but it is nice to see that Eagle 6 has switched from using proprietary binary file formats for their schematic and PCB layout files to open XML-based file formats. That doesn't >> necessarily completely solve the problem of being able to deal with the files arbitrarily far in the future, but it does at least potentially make it a lot easier. >> > > This is like all of the HP1000 manual source files CHM has in Interleaf format. I have a DOS version of Interleaf in the original boxes. I haven't checked on the media in a *really* long time but Al's welcome to it. TTFN - Guy From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Sep 1 12:12:22 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 18:12:22 +0100 Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tony, and all, Again thanks for the good counsel. The basic PERQ passed each phase of checkout testing just fine. The monitor and keyboard both had issues . For the moment, I've swapped in working items, while I look through those issues. With those in place, the system booted right into PNX. Basic UNIX operations ran without a hitch. I've not located the right archive box for software yet, so that will have to wait for another weekend. There's also problem of cable insulation peeling off on the 'good' keyboard and monitor leads. That too gets queued for attention. But all in all quite a successful outcome. I will keep interested parties posted. If you want to see this system, it's in TNMoC's multi-purpose/scientific computing gallery. ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> All, especially Tony, > >Fortunately my love of classic computers, expecially classic PERQs, >well >exceeds my dislike of certain organisations :-) > >> I'm getting ready to power up a PERQ 1a which has been sitting for a >> while (5+ years). I have no reason to believe it has any faults. >I've >> done the obvious prep, like unparking the disk, and removing the >locking > >It's probably too late to say this, but you shouldn't remvoe the >lcoking >clip from the postioner on the SA4000 winchester drive until it's >spinning. It's too easy to move the heads as you pull the clip out, and > >doing tha on a stationary disk is not the best idea. Although to be >fari, >these drives are pretty solid, and it's hard to wreck them. > >> screw. And I will need to build a dummy load to retest the power > >The power supply is one of those infernal Boaschert 2-stage ones. >However, it doesn't seem to need a dummy load to regulate correctly. >You >can run it with no load and it should be fine. > >> supply. Are there any other gotchas or quirks I should be aware of? >I >> have no previous experience with this model, and would err on the >side >> of leaving it dormant rather than proceeding blindly. > >atmittedly the PERQ 1 was the last (of 4) PERQs that I obtained, but I >also had to start PWERQ repaires with no knowledge :-). > >I apologise if I mention things that are obvious. Some things seem >obvious to me, but I then find after much emailing to and fro that this > >was the problem. > >Tke the casing off first. I guess you've done that., though. If you >haven't, the front and rear panels come off first, then the sides. THis > >frees the top cover over the floppy drive, etc. > >There are interlock switches that prevent the machine pwoering up with >the front and rear panels removed. They;re those standard white ones >found in a lot of machinesm, and you can pull thje actuators out a >little >way to turn them on, so you can run the machine with the cover removed. > >The PSU is under the main card cage, and is a right pain to get to. >Basically you have to remvoe the card cage. So to save a bit of time, >you >can test it without removing it : > >Unplug the ribbon cables from the front of the CIO board. The top one >goes to the floppy drive (SA850 pinout), the bottom one ot the >wincheter. >Lable them if you are not sure. Then pull the boards out of the card >cage. You don't bneed to remvoe them all the way, jsut make sure they >don't connect to the backplane. There are 3 boards i na normal PERQ, >form >the left they are the CPU, then the memory (and video) and finally the >CIO board (input/output, disk controllers, etc). If you are very >fortuantel there's a 4th vaord on the right of these. That's the OIO >(Optional Input/Ouptu). It adds a 16 bit parallel interface (a bit like >a >DEC DR11-C [1]), and oen or both of ethernet (which is not standard on >PERQ 1 and 1a models) and Canon CX laser pritner interface. There are >other boards that could be inthat slot (like a QIC-02 tape interface or > >a Datacopy 300 camera controller), but you are very unlikely to see >those. > >Now disconenct the DC power cables from the floppy drive nad >winchester. >Unplug the AC cables to the motors if you like, in fact the Winchester >motor cable should have been unplugged when the spindle locking scrrew >was fitted. > >HAve noting plugged into any of the D connectors o nthe backplane > >At this point there.is nothign conencted to the DC output of the PSU. >Connect mains, with the interlocs pulled out, the breaker closed, flip >the little switch on the front./ The fans should start up. If that's >OK, >check the DC voltages on the labelled traces on the backplane. > >It's rarew for them to be out of tolerance. Eitehr they are OK, or >they're all missing. If nthe latter case, you have to work o nthe PSU, >whioch I can explain when you need to do it. For the moment I will >assume >the PSU is OK. > >Power down. and remvoe the mains lead. Put the logic boards back in, >connect the keyboard ot the appropriate conenctor on the backplane. On >the underside of the keyboard is a 3 digit 7 segment display. Power up >again and press and release the reset button on the back of the >keyboard. >Look at that display. if it gets to 010, then the CPU has passed >power-on >diagnositcs, and is attmpting to load microcode from disk. If not, you >haev some logic faultfinding to do. > >Power down, reconenct the drive data ables to the CIO board and the >drive >power cables. Conenct the monitor to the correct conenctor, and power >up >again. Again blip the reset button. Watch the display. At 030, you >should >see memory test patterns on the CRT screen. If not, maybe there's a >monitor problem. If you are lucky, the machine will complete the boot >from the winchester, and you vncan then run whatever OS it's loaded. If > >not, you might have to re-install thigns from floppy. > >I've left out a lot of what to do when it doesn't work. What I epxext >is >you do the above 9which is safe, and will protect the mahcine from >amjor >damage), adn then get back to me when you ahve problems -- like the PSU > >is giving no outputs, or the DDC (7 segment display) sticks at 009, or >whatever. THen I can help uou further. > >-tony -- Colin From LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 12:34:32 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 13:34:32 -0400 Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs are here! Message-ID: <000001cd8868$25c50e60$714f2b20$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! The XT-IDE V2 PCBs have arrived! They are identical to the previous boards. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 They are $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your board(s) right away. Thanks in advance and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, please make sure to mention XT-IDE and your *current shipping address* in your PayPal. Relying on my frazzled memory is hazardous! From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 14:04:23 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:04:23 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel Message-ID: I am sure I've found reference to this in the past, but my Google-fu is failing me. IIRC in the fairly early stages of the GNU OS project, they looked at and considered using the kernel from BSD - 4.3 Net/1 or thereabouts, I think. I'm looking for more detail or a web reference. I've even found mention of them considering and discarding the UZI kernel, which is what Allison was mentioning in the thread about CP/M-compatible OSs the other day. Could anyone give me a pointer, at all? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 13:44:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:44:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 31, 12 08:37:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell wrote: > >> They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for > >> earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. > > > > I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines. > > SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. > > Good point, yes. > > > Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory > > cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting... > > I did some trivial research into this. > > The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM. > There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash, > I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional > media readers. Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them. No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. > > The NC100 has a PCMCIA slot, but it can only take 1MB of SRAM and it > is used as RAM - there is no filesystem on it, so there's no way to > read it on anything else. Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make sense of the Amstrad's card. > > > I have a reason for disliking USB here, and it's got nothign to do with > > the age of the interfaces. It's that USB is too 'asymmetirc'. > > > > Let me expalin. With RS232, and posslby simpe null modem calbes, I can > > link my M100, my HP95LX, my Eposn PX4, etc, etc, etc to my PC. I can a > > also link them to each other. I can, for example, link an HP95LX to my PC > > nad kermit an intel-hex file to progrma in to na EPROM. I can then take > > that 95LX to my workbench and plug it into my EPROM programmer nad upload > > the file. Or I can transfer the file to my M100. Or I can link the M100 > > striagn to the PC. Or to any of my otehr machines. > > > > YOu simply can';t do that with USB. There is no way to link 2 USB mastes > > or slaves together. USB gets round the problem of null-modme cables by > > making them impossible, and prventing you from doing the thigns you > > needed a null modem cable for with RS232. > > Fair point. There are things like USB OTG but it's rarely implemented. > > OTOH, I've never once wanted to do this... You are lucky. I find I need to do it all the time with my machines, it's oen reason I use RS232 a lot.Perhaps if you could do it, you'd find you wanted to do it :-) > I am not saying it's *impossible*. It works, very well in some cases, > and it was a long-lived, widely-adopted standard that is of very wide > use and applicability. > > All that I am saying that I find it to be fiddly and irritating -- and > failure-prone until you get the settings right on both ends. I didn't > like it when it was current and I like it less now. Actually, had both devices in the RS2232 connection been designed to work together (adn not be general-porpose dvices), there would be no problem. The paramerts would be pre-set. The reason RS232 can be a bit of a fiddle and why there are a lot of things you may have to set, is that it's a general-purpose interface. > > You thrive on such things, I am sure; my hateful administrivia is your acvtually, no. Much of the itme I want things to work. I want to be able to set things as I want them (e.g. I do want to be able to set 5 data bits, 1.5 stop bits to talk to my Creed 7E), but I don't want to try comibnations at random until it all works. I suspect that is the reason I have no problems. Before I connect 2 RS232 devives I've not used before, I sit down for a few minutes iwth the manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And configure things accordingly. > fun bit of fettling, and my fun bit of > fiddling - e.g. playing with non-traditional x86-32 OSs such as Haiku, > AROS and whatnot, installing multiple Linux distros, experimenting > with FreeBSD and Solaris and so on -- might well be your wretched > waste of time and effort. There is certainly something in that :-) However, I don;t object ot readong an OS manual -- or even source code -- to get a classic computer running. And I put sorting out an RS232 connection very much on that level. And once you have got it sorted out -- you know the settings for both end,s oyu have a cable wired, it'll work properly for evermore. So for a mahcine oyu are goign to use, it's worth taking a little time to sort out how to link it to a PC and docuemtning it. Store the settings in a configuration file on each machien, solder up an adapter or cable -- and label it -- if need be. For example, the HP82164 (HPIL to RS232 interface) is well known around here for having a very unconventional use of the flow control lines. I seem to remembr that it uses DTR/DSR as the main flow control lines. Unix boxes tend to use RTS/CTS. I have a labelled adapter that does the paporpriate swaps. I spent a little time etting my HPIL sytems to talk to my linux box with this interface, suing a breakout box to get the conenctions right. I then soldered up an adapter with the right signals swapped round. I now just use that, I don't have to do the tests again. It works. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 13:48:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:48:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 31, 12 01:17:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > It is a normal controlelr using normal data rates, and the drive is a > > standard SA850. You shouldn't have any problems reading the disks. Making > > sense of the data is another matter. The PERQ file system is not > > simple... > > > > I've written a utility (in C#) that can read, navigate, and copy files > from POS filesystem images, both for hard disk images (of 12 or > 24-mb SA4000s currently, since I have no images of other drive types) and > floppy disk images. Someday I'll add write support, since it'd be very > useful for use with PERQemu. It should be pretty trivial to port to > whatever language your preference is (or it can run under Mono on Unices.) > > It does not support RT-11 interchange format disks (yet), but that may be > better supported by another utility already out there. I worte soemthing I called 'PERQDISK' in Turbo Pascal (shows how long ago it was) under MS-DOS to read (and write) Interchange floppies. I think it on;y does double desnity ones, but it woudl be easy enough to modify (but the PC I ran it on had a disk controller that didn't correctly handle single density). I can let you (or anyone else) have a copy. At the time I wrote it, I'd neer come across the GPL (!), so I said that I was keeping the copyright, but that 'PERQ fanatics) could freely copy and use it. What I meant by that was that if you use it to make a million dollars (pounds, euros), I feel I am entitled to something. If you are restoring PERQs, then that's fine, I want PERQs to be restored. BTW, writing PERQ emulators, archinve software in general, etc, all counts as being a PERQ fanatic here :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 13:54:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 19:54:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Aug 31, 12 10:29:35 pm Message-ID: > > Tony you are a star! Excellent write up. I'm really looking forward to running through your test out process tomorrow. I'll post back what I > learn. Let us (or me at least) know how you get on. >From what I remembnr the Bletchely Park museum used to have a PERQ 2T1 and a PERQ 3a (AGW3300). I rememebr this, becaues I repaired both of them. I n amny ways those are more appropriate to an ICL exhibit than the PERQ 1a. AFAI kthe DIB for the 2T1 (Micropolis 1200 inteface was an ICL design, and the 3a is totally ICL (it's a PERQ in anme only, s I like to say). I have no idea what became of them, but if they;re stil laround, I'll help you with those too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 14:05:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:05:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Micropolis 1203 Re: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: <50412F80.3000704@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 31, 12 02:41:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 8/31/12 11:42 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What sort of drive is it? THe Microposls 1203 (8") was used in the 2T1, > > the 1300 series (5.25") were used in soem 2T2s. > > > > It is a 1203. Then, if it's from a PERQ at all, it's from a PERQ 2T1. The PERQ DIB (Dsik Inteface Board) fitted on top of the track side of the main logic board on the drive. Other htan that it's a standard 1203. > > I guess we need to keep an eye out for the 1203 manual, since it sounds like > you don't have a copy either. I will probably need this at some point to try > to figure out why the 12xx series drives out of the Tek 8550 aren't working. Many years ago i managed to borrow the 1203 service manual. I have no diea where from (it may have been one of the departments of the university where I was studying). What I do know is that at the tiem scanners were unheard-of, I didn't have my own copier, and copying in the deparment was non-triival. Therefore I couldn't make a complete copy of the manual. What I did do was copy the bits I thought were non-obvious (to me) -- the schemnatics, error codes, etc. And produced my own parahprase of the tehory-of-operation sections, leaving out the vry obvious bits, like the microcotroller + ROM.. I've found those files on this machine, I will include them at the end of this message. There is a LaTeX document (old LaTeX) for the interface signals and a text file giving the theory of the motor and servo sections. I cna problaby photocopy the schematics, etc nad have them scanned or send them to you if that wopuld eb any help. But not for the next week or so (personal reaosns). > > I'll have to look in my email to see if I can find the PAL equations you sent. > Sometimes things get forgotten if I get busy dealing with other things. If not, I can send them again. I normally use a .tar.gz file. I can upload to an anonymous ftp site, or mail it (uuencoded or MIME attachment). Let me know... -tony -------------- \documentstyle[12pt,A4]{article} \begin{document} \section{Interface Connector} J1 carries the signals to/from the controller, while J2 carries radial signals (not controlled by drive select) and the LED signal.J1 is a 50 pin 0.1" edge connector with the following pinout \begin{tabbing} \=\hspace{0.5in}\=\hspace{0.5in}\=\hspace{1in}\=\\* \>Pin\>Ground\>Signal\>Desription\\* \>2\>1\>-\>Reserved\\* \>3\>-\>-\>Reserved\\* \>5\>4\>R/W Data+\>Read/Write Data\\* \>6\>-\>R/W Data-\\* \>8\>7\>DS1/\>Drive select MSB\\* \>10\>9\>DS0/\>Drive select LSB\\* \>12\>11\>Busen/\>Bus Enable\\* \>14\>13\>BA1/\>Bus address MSB (Register Select)\\* \>16\>15\>BA0/\>Bus address LSB\\* \>18\>17\>Enable/\>Interface Enable\\* \>20\>19\>-\>Reserved\\* \>22\>21\>Bus7/\>Data bus MSB\\* \>24\>23\>Bus6/\\* \>25\>-\>TV\>Terminator +5V\\* \>26\>-\>TV\\* \>28\>27\>Bus5/\\* \>30\>29\>Bus4/\\* \>32\>31\>Bus3/\\* \>34\>33\>Bus2/\\* \>36\>35\>Bus1/\\* \>38\>37\>Bus0/\\* \>40\>39\>Rdy/\>Drive Ready\\* \>42\>41\>Flt/\>Drive Fault\\* \>44\>43\>Iladr/\>Illeagal address\\* \>46\>45\>Skcmp/\>Seek Complete\\* \>48\>47\>Idx/\>Index Pulse\\* \>50\>49\>Secp/\>Sector Pulse\\* \end{tabbing} The RW Data balanced line should be terminated into 68$\Omega$ at the controller, while the remaining signals should be terminated by 220$\Omega$ to +5V and 330$\Omega$ to Ground. J2 consits of a 2*5 0.1" Header plug. Pin 1 is on the J1 side of the connector, away from the PCB. The pinout is given in the next table \begin{tabbing} \=\hspace{0.5in}\=\hspace{0.5in}\=\hspace{1in}\=\\* \>Pin\>Ground\>Signal\>Desription\\* \>2\>1\>Rdy/\>Drive Ready\\* \>4\>3\>Skcmp/\>Seek Complete\\* \>5\>-\>+5V\>Power for LED\\* \>6\>-\>Sltd/\>Drive selected status\\* \>8\>7\>Idx/\>Index Pulse\\* \>10\>9\>Secp/\>Sector Pulse\\* \end{tabbing} These signals are not controlled by the Enable/ or Drive Select signals. \section{Interface Signals} \noindent {\bf Enable/} The enable signal enables the interface on the drive when it is the active low state. It may be used as a powerOK signal to prevent the drive from responding when the controller is not stable. It also disables the drive if the interface cable is removed. \noindent {\bf DS*/} These signals form a 2-bit binary coded drive select input, allowing up to 4 drives on the same cable. The drive address is selected by a jumper on the drive logic board (W3-W6) near U17. The signals on J2 are not controlled by the drive select. \noindent {\bf BA*/} These signals form the address inputs to allow one of 3 registers in the drive to be selected. The addresses are : \begin{tabbing} \=Address\hspace{0.25in}\=Register\\* \>0\>LSB cylinder\\* \>1\>MSB cylinder \& Head\\* \>2\>Control\\* \>3\>Not Used\\* \end{tabbing} \noindent {\bf Busen/} This line is the active-low bus strobe that writes data from Bus0--Bus7 into the selected register. The head and cylinder registers are loaded on the rising edge of this signal, while the control register can be loaded while the signal is low. \noindent {\bf Bus*/} These lines form an 8-bit data bus from the controller to the drive, with Bus0/ as the LSB. The bit definitions of the registers are given next. The LSB cylinder register contains the lower 8 bits of the cylinder address, with bit 0 being the LSB The MSB cylinder \& head register contains the upper 4 bits of the cylinder address in the high nybble, and the head select code in the low nybble. The head select code must be 0-4, and the cylinder address 0-579. Writing to this register causes a seek operation, and Skcmp/ goes false until the head is on the destination track. The control register contains 6 bits which control the operation of the drive. These lines are not latched, but are applied to the drive logic while Busen/ is true. The signals are as follows {\it Wen} (bit 0) This signal enables the write amplifier, causes the RW data signals to be inputs, and allows the drive to write when it is true. {\it TOP} (bit 2) {\it \& TOM} (bit 3) These signals allow the head to be offset from the centre of the track durint read operations. TOP (Track Offset Plus) moves the head 100 microinches towards the spindle, TOM (Track Offset Minus) moves the head 100 microinches towards the edge of the disk. {\it Frst} (bit 4) This signal -- Fault Reset -- resets the fault latch in the drive provided no fault condition currently exists. {\it Rtr} (bit 6) This signal causes the positioner to restore the heads to track 0. {\it Gain} (bit 7) This signal increases the gain of the read amplifier by about 20\% to allow the recovery of marginal data. \noindent {\bf RW Data}. This pair of differential signals is a bi-directional data transfer line between the drive and the controller. When Wen is true, this line is an input on the drive, and each rising edge of this line causes a flux transition to be written on the disk. If erased gaps are written (i.e. when Wen is true, and there are no transitions on the data line), then the maximum length is 4$\mu$s and the minimum spacing 40$\mu$s to prevent upsetting the read AGC circuit. In read mode (Wen false), this line is an output from the drie, and a pulse is output for every transition of the flux on the disk. The controller should operate on the rising edge of each pulse. \noindent {\bf TV} These pins may be used to supply +5V to the terminating resistors in the drive, so that the termination will reamin active even if the drive is turned off. \noindent {\bf Rdy/}. This signal goes true when the heads are loaded and no fault condition exists. Read, Write and seek operations are inhibited when Rdy/ is false. This signal goes active when the drive completes it's power-up sequence, and remains active until a fault occurs or the power fails. \noindent {\bf Flt/}. This signal goes active if a fault occurs in the drive, and remains active until a fault reset occurs (see above). The fault conditions detected are : DC power fault (one or more PSU voltages low), Spindle fault (spindle will not reach or maintain the correct speed), Positioner fault (Head could not seek or restore), Read/Write fault (more than 1 head selected, or write current exists when Wen is false), and Write Unsafe (attempt to write when head is not on a track centre). The first 4 conditions cause the head to be unloaded and the spindle to stop. \noindent {\bf Iladr/}. This signal indicates that the controller has attempted to seek to a cylinder larger than 579, or select a head not present in the drive. \noindent {\bf Skcmp/}. This signal indicates that no seek or restore operation is in progress, and that the heads are on the destination track \noindent {\bf Idx}. This signal goes true once/revolution to indicate the start of the track, and the falling edge should be used as a reference. \noindent {\bf Secp}. This signal goes active from 1-128 times/revolution to indicate the start of each sector. The number of sectors is selected by a jumper block on the drive logic PCB at location JX3. \end{document} ----------------- Micropolis 1200 Service Notes ----------------------------- These notes are known to be incomplete. In particular, the CPU section is omitted - if you can't figure out how that works, you shouldn't be fixing the drive! [Bracketed letters after IC designators indicate Drive Logic (l), Motor Control (m) or Preamp (p) boards. PSU --- +24V regulated down to +12v, and thence to +6.2V -12V regulated to -8V, and thence to -5V and -4V Relay K1 on motor board disables +6.2, -8 (Etc) regualtors until spindle is up to speed. K1 is controlled by Positioner Enable signal via U18b(m) K1 also limits spindle motor current via external resistor, removes power from Write Amp (to protect data) and Causes emergence retract (Dischages C31 and C32 through positioner coil to retract head assy). U1(m) (LM339) checks +5,+24,-12V rails in tolerance, and drives PSEN signal via Q1(m) and Q2(m) Comparator U10(m) monitors current drawn by preamplifer module, and activates RW Unsafe if this current is too high (either Vcc or Unsafe). RW Unsafe goes to logic board, and is inverted by U16a(l). It's then Combined wiuth Transient Blanking and Reset HD to produce RW Fault. The break solenoid current is monitored by Q4(m) and Q14(m). If sufficient break current is sensed, then Break Fault goes low, and the spindle motor is enabled via U11b(m). Spindle Motor ------------- System uses Optical comutation. Signals from phototransistors Q5(m), Q6(m), Q7(m) are processed by comparators U19(m) and U20(m). TTL outputs are then fed to U4(m) (3-8 decoder), the outpus of which are combined by U3 and U5, and then bufffered by U6 to drive motor drive transistors Q8-Q13. When motor is stopped, U5*(m) are all enabled by Enable Spindle being low. Hence Q9, Q11, Q13 all on, motor coils shorted out, so motor stops. When motor is accelerating, all transistor commutate as expected. When motor up to speed, IMS/ signal goes high, disables U4, so all transistors off. Motor runs due to inertia, until speed drops enough for IMS/ to go low. Speed control is 2-state (on/off) digital. U11a(m) and U13b(m) generate 470ns pulse for each rising edge of X phototransistor signal. This pulse Presets the 12 bit counter U14(m)-U16(m), which is clocked by 400kHz signal derived from the CPU ALE signal, buffered by U45d(l), U52d(l), and gated by U13a(m). Final (2048) output of counter is speed low signal. If speed is very low, U13c(m) is enabled, and counter is inhibited via U13a(m) Motor sequence : 0-2500 rpm : Positoner disabled, so U11d(m) inhibited. Thus U12a(m) is held set, and IMS/ signal forced low. Motor accelerates as above. Speed Pulse (X p/transistor buffered by U3d(m) is monitored by CPU to check for spindle faults. When speed gets to 2500 rpm, CPU asserts Enable Positioner/ signal. Thus U12a(m) is no longer forced into the preset state, and instead is loaded with speed low on each X pulse. Enable Positioner/ operates relay K1, and removes current limiting resistor from motor circuit. 2500-3600rpm. On rising edge of X, speed low is high. Thus IMS/ is still low, and motor still accelerates. @3600rpm. Speed low is low when X rises. So U12a is cleared, and motor is disabled by IMS/ signal. Motor runs due to intertia until speed drops enough for IMS/ to got low again. If motor speed drops too much, U13c(m) is enables, and counter is inhibited. Then U12b(m) (speed OK flip-flop) is reset. This flip-flop was set by rising edge of IMS signal from U12a(m). Output of U12b(m) is fed to CPU and interrupt logic. Position Servo -------------- Servo head signal amplified by U1(p), and fed to drive logic board. Signal is then amplified by U19(l) and filtered by LC filter (L8(l), L9(l), etc). Output is then buffered by Q20(l). Gain of U19(l) is controled by FET Q19(l), which is controlled by the AGC circuit. The output of Q20(l) is fed to peak detector U29a(l) [GS/ signal is always low, so Q26(l) is always on], and the output of this is fed to the limited gain integratopr U29b(l). This integrator integrates the diference between the peak servo voltage and the reference set by R144. The non-inverting imput of U29b(l) is driven by a DC voltage which is essentially the temperature compensated (by U79(l)) level of the servo signal. The output of the integrator controls the gain of the servo amp via FET Q19(l). The servo signal is sampled by the GA/ and GB/ signals from the servo control logic by FET's Q22(l) and Q24(l). The peak value is stored on the hold capacitors C111(l) and C114(l) and appears as SA and SB at the outputs of U32a(l) and U32b(l) repsectively. Raw servo signal is applied to peak-detector latch U39(l), which detects the servo pulses. Gates U11b(l) and U69b(l) allow servo PLL to open during spin-up to prevent it locking off-frequency. When the servo is enabled, the circuit operates normally. Sync Gate/ from the PLL PROM provides noise imunity by only allowing U39 to operate near the expected sync position. Sync detector U65b(l) and U54b(l) detect pairs of sync pulses, and provide one sync pulse (on TP9) for each sync pair. This pulse is stretched by U65a(l) (critical 1.39us adjustment on R157), to provide reference for PLL U64(l). U164(l) operates with counter U63(l) to provide a 16* servo burst frequency, and thus provide sampling clocks inside each servo cell. PLL centre frequency is set by R176(l). Outputs of counter, and ODD (odd/even track select) are decoded by PROM U62(l) to provide servo sampling clocks GA/, GB/. The stretched sync pulse from U65a(l) is fed to the shift register U67(l), clocked by QD from counter U63(l). Output of U67(l) encoded by gates U77a(l) and U77b(l) and applied to lower 5 inputs of Index control PROM U68(l). Remaining inputs come from counter U78(l), also clocked by QD. Counter is usually in state F, but is enabled by the PROM when Index byte 1 is found. Counter is also forced into state 8 by INX2/ signal from PROM when Index byte 2 found. Prom also detects missing sync, and removes Servo deterct/ if this occurs. Finally, PROM asserts State14/ if either index byte is found (when counter is in state E), anmd thus produces SINDEX signal via U77c(l). SINDEX presets sector counters U33(l), U42(l) and U55(l) to value set by jumper plug JX3. When counter rolls over, counter is again preset via U46d(l), and index | sector pulse is produced. U23b(l) provides a sector clock, decoded from the PLL circuit, to increment the counter. Also, U23a(l) is set if SINDEX has occured since the last counter roll-over, thus indicating the start of a new track. U34b(l) and U34c(l) decode the signals and produce the index and sector pulses. U43a disables the sector pulse coincident with the index pulse if enabled by W16 being removed. SA and SB are subtracted by the differential amplifier U31a(l) to provide the positioner error information, and then low-pass filtered (cutoff 10kHz) by U31b(l) to provide the POSX signal. This signal is inverted by U28a(l) to provide POSXN, and then reinverted (and offset) by U28b(l). Offset is controlled by R132. The resulting POS signal is fed to the motor control board. POSX and POSXN drive comparators U30a(l) and U30b(l), which switch when POSN waveform exceeds 80% of max in +ve or -ve direction. These signals are latchedd by U40(l) to provide PPL and NPL (+ve and -ve peak latched respectively), and fed to monostables U41(l). Outputs of these are ORed by U11a(l), and then fed to CPU as the Track Clock Signal. CPU resets latches U40(l) after track has been detected. Tracks are counted by the CPU to provide position reference. POS signal is applied to phase-shift circuit U21a(m) and U21b(m), which stabilises the servo loop, and then to the summing amplifier via switch U17(m), controlled by track follow signal TFM/. POS signal is also differentiated by Op-amp U7a(m) and then buffered by inverter U7b(m), to provide positioner velocity signal. Either normal or inverted signal cna be fed to velocity sythesiser via analogue switch U8(m). U8(m) is controlled by velocity control PROM U66(l), which produced S0/ - S3/ signals. S0/ controls time constant of velocity summing amplifier U9a(m). This signal goes low to shorten t/c when using differentiated position signal, and goes high for long t/c when using current signal. S1/ feeds diffentiated position signal into velocity circuit S2/ feeds inverted differentiated position signal into velocity circuit S3/ feeds IM positioner current signal into velocity circuit. Normally active (low). During peak of position signal, S0 switch opens, and U9a(m) behaves as integrator. PROM U66(l) decodes NPL (neg peak latched), PPL (Pos Peak Latched), Invert Slope (from CPU), Rev Direction (ditto), TP/ (Track Pulse), Velocity Enable (from CPU), Servo Enable (ditto), and Track Following Mode to provide signals to control velocity switches S0/ - S3/. PROM values encode the following velocity modes : 02 - POSX/ + IM 04 - POSX + IM 06 - Reset 07 - IM 0F - Hold IM signal is produced from positioner power amp by differential amplifier U26(m). POS signal is position error signal described above. VREF (velocity reference) is produced from DAC U74(l), via I->V convertor U75b(l) and selectable inverter U75a(l). It provides a CPU controlled velocity signal via U17(m), controlled by VFE/ signal. It also provides an offset in follow mode, via R69(M) and TFM/ controlled switch. VEL - the velocity circuit output, is fed into summing amp by U17(m) via calibration pot R71(m) and offset control R74(m) when VFE/ is active. When IMP/ is active, a larger form of the VLE signal is injected via R76(m) to stabilise the servo loop. IMP/ - inject vel signal to stabilse loop, and reduce setling time TFM/ - Enable track follow mode VFE/ - Enable Velocity feedback for head movement Common Output of servo switch U17(m) is fed to Op-amp U28a(m), which produces Error signal. By inserting W1, servo gain is incresed, allowing stability check. Summing node available on TP10 (and J2/4) for injecting position signals. Error signal is fed to 1050Hz notch filter U22(m), then to 1650Hz Notch filter U23(m). Output (SA) is available on J2/1, and fed to servo amp U25(m), where it is subtracted from IM signal. Output of U25(m) is level shifted by zener VR10(m), and applied to power amp U27(m), which drives positioned coil via retract relay K1. Drive signal is fed to positioner coil via Preamp cable and PCB Fault Detection --------------- Power supply fault : PSEN (from PSU on motor PCB) is filtered by U21a(l) and U21e(l) + associated components to provide the power OK signal. This signal sets the Fault flip-flop U57b(l) if the power supply fails. The output of this flip-flop becomes the emergency UNLOAD/ signal, and is combined with the Write Unsafe/ signal by U44c(l) to become the fault signal Spindle Fault: If the Speed OK/ signal goes high, the Speed OK signal from U21b(l) goes low. This interrupts the CPU via U34a(l), and the CPU then asserts the SET FAULT signal via U58(l) bit 3. This sets the fault flip-flop U57b(l). Servo fault : If servo detected/ goes high when the servo is enabled (servo enable is high), the output of U43d(l) goes low, and interupts the processor via U34a(l). The CPU then sets the fault flip-flop as above. Read/Write fault : RW Unsafe (from the PSU logic described above) sets the fault flip-flop via U44b(l). Write Unsafe fault : If Write Mode/ is active and the head is not on track, the 0 output of U48b(l) will go low, and the 1 output high. The latter disables the write logic, while the former directly sets the Write Unsafe flip-flop U57a(l). The output of U57a(l) is the Write Unsafe/ signal, and becomes the fault signal via U44c(l) Write Logic ----------- Incoming write data from the controller is converted to a TTL signal by the receiver U14a(l). The output of this receiver clocks the toggle flip-flop U13b(l), so that the flip-flop changes on each rising edge of the write data. The output of this flip-flop is converted to ECL levels by U12c(l). The outputs of this converter are applied to the differential amplifier Q6(l) and Q7(l) to produce the DX and DY head drive signals, which are fed to the preamplifier board. This amplifier is enabled by Q9(l) when Q4(l) is turned on. This occurs when PSEN (power Enable) and Wen (write Enable) are active together, detected by U20d(l). The write current is set by R45. The write head current is provided by the current source Q3(l), which is also enabled by Q4(l) as above. The current can be increased by turning on Q2(l) via Q1(l), which occurs when the Outer Track signal is asserted by the CPU. This happens when the head is over track 0 - 299. The head select signals (HSLT) from the interface register U26(l) are converted to ECL levels by U12a(l) and U12b(l). the outputs of these converters are fed to the preamplifier PCB. Similarly, the Chip select signals for the write amplifiers (CE1 and CE2) are buffered by U20b(l) and U20a(l) and fed to the preamplifier board. When WEN goes low, Q5(l) is enabled, thus supplying the 3.6V write select signal to the preamplifier PCB. Read Logic ---------- The output of the selected head preamplifier is fed up the DX and DY lines to the drive logic PCB. The heads are selected in the same way as for write mode above. This signal is connected to the read amplifier U1(l), where FET Q10(l) sets the gain, controlled by the AGC circuit. When the drive is in write mode, or seeking, the transient blank output from U44a(l) goes low. This signal enables the transistor Q12(l), and thus causes the Clamp/Analog signal to go positive. This signal forces the output of U2(l) high, and thus the RAGC signal goes towards 0. Thus Q10(l) clamps the inputs of U1(l). The output of U1(l) is similarly clamped by FET Q11(l) when the Clamp/Analog signal goes high. (Q11 is a depletion mode device). The output of U1(l) is buffered by the emitter follower Q13(l) and then filtered by the 2-stage LC filter L1(l) and L2(l). The output of the filter is then buffered by Q14(l). U4(l) acts as an equaliser, and thus improves the effective resolution of the read channel. The Inverting input is fed from the 100ns delay line DL1(l), while the non-inverting input gets not only the raw signal, but also a 200ns delayed version provided by a reflection in DL1(l), which is not terminated. These signals are attenuated by a T network, and then subtracted from the 100ns delayed signal by U4(l). This effectively reduces the read pulse width. The outputs of U4(l) are the EQ+ and EQ- signals. The output of U4(l) is buffered by the transistors Q15(l) and Q16(l), and then differentiated by the delay line DL3(l). This differentiated signal is then fed to the comparator U5(l), whcih consists of a cascaded pair of ECL differential receivers, to produce the Diff+ and Diff- signals. The Diff+ and Diff- signals are converted to a TTL signal by the converter U8a(l). The output of this converter feeds the edge detector configured from U9b-d(l). The output of this edge detector clocks the Pen signal (coverted to TTL by U8d(l)) into the read flip-flop U13a(l). This flip-flop is reset shortly afterwards by the delay network U12d(l), L10(l), C166(l), R224(l) and U8c(l), which thus sets the read pulse width. The output of the read flip-flop is connected to the line driver U10b(l), and is thus transmitted to the controller. The EQ- signal is used to produce the read threshold. It is buffered by Q17(l) and then delayed for 50ns by DL2(l). The output of this delay line is again buffered, bu Q18(l), and then fed to a pair of comparators, U6(l) and U7(l). These comparators produce a gating signal whenever the read signal is over 50% of the nominal amplitude, and the outputs, which are wire-ored together, provide the Pen (Peak Enable) signal to the read logic. The EQ+ and EQ- signals are buffered by Q33(l) and Q34(l) and then full-wave rectified by CR9(l) and CR23(l). The output of this rectifier is smoothed, and then buffered by U3(l), a unity gain buffer. It is then fed to the AGC summing amplifier U2(l), where it is added a fixed reference level from VR12(l), and 2 gain control signals, High Gain, which increases the gain via Q31(l), and low gain/ which decreases the gain by turning off Q32(l). The former is used to recover marginal data, while the latter is used in testing to ensure the drive is not becoming marginal. The Clamp/Analogue signal is also fed into this amplifier as described above. The output of the AGC summing amplifier is used to control the gain FET as described above. J10 (diagnostic) pins --------------------- 1 - gnd 2 - -12V 3 - Enable Low gain/ (to check for marginal operation) 4 - Reserved 5 - Diag Mode/ 6 - Reserved 7 - Write Unsafe/ 8 - Diag 1/ 9 - Diag 0/ 10 - VR1 11 - VR2 12 - VR3 13 - VR4 14 - VR5 15 - VR6 16 - VR7 17 - +5v 18 - +5v 19 - VR0 20 - Ready/ 21 - Power OK/ 22 - Fault 23 - R/W Fault/ 24 - Speed OK 25 - Lost Servo/ 26 - Diag 2/ 27 - Diag 3/ 28 - Set fault/ 29 - fault reset 30 - inhibit fault 31 - reserved 32 - analogue ground 33 - POSX 34 - Ground. Diag 0/ - Enable velocity calibration display (Must have Fault Inhibit true) Diag 1/ - Inhibit velocity calibration Diag 2/ - Offset track by additional 100microinches Diag 3/ - Not used. Error codes ----------- Sent on VR0-VR6. 0 - Reserved 1 - Spindle could not get to 250 rpm 2 - Spindle could not get to 2500 rpm 3 - Spindle could not get to 3600 rpm 4 - Servo could not find home band 5 - Servo could not find guard band 6 - Timeout in velocity adjustment loop 7 - Velocity scale factor overflow 8 - Seek timeout 9 - Positioner stalled A - Positioner did not settle B - Speed OK lost C - Servo Detected/ lost D - Positioner knocked off track. Test Points ----------- Motor Control PCB ----------------- TP1 - Power Ground TP3 - Analogue Ground TP4 - Vref (velocity reference from DAC) TP5 - Vel (Velocity signal) TP6 - Filtered position error TP7 - IM (positioner current) TP8 - Compensator TP9 - Position Error. TP10 - Error Summing node. TP11 - Velocity signal (differentiated POS). TP12 - Analogue Ground Motor PCB diagnostic connector (J2) ----------------------------------- 1 - Filtered Position Error 2 - Ground 3 - IM 4 - Error Summing Node (test signal) 5 - POS 6 - Vel 7 - Compenstator 8 - Position Error. Motor PCB Link -------------- W1 - Increase servo gain for stability test Logic PCB --------- TP1 - Analogue Ground 4 TP2 - EQ - TP3 - Differentiated EQ + TP4 - Diff - TP5 - Analogue Ground 4 TP6 - Analogue Ground 1 TP7 - Servo signal (SS) TP8 - Ground TP9 - Sync Pulse TP10 - Seek Complete TP11 - Sector Pulse TP12 - Index Pulse TP13 - ground TP14 - Stretched Sync Pulse TP15 - POSX TP16 - Rev Direction TP17 - Pull Up 1 TP18 - Read Data flip-flop TP19 - Ground TP20 - Velocity Reference TP21 - Velocity Reference Return TP22 - Ground Logic PCB Links --------------- W1 - Enable Remote Termination supply W2 - Termination Supply from +5V W3 - Select Drive 0 W4 - Select Drive 1 W5 - Select Drive 2 W6 - Select Drive 3 W7 - Enable Internal PROM in CPU W9 - +5V to Eprom pin 21 (for 2716) W14 - P23 to Eprom pin 21 W15 - P23 to Eprom pin 18 W16 - Inhibit sector pulse at index time W17 - Ground to Eprom pin 17 (for 2716) ------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 14:18:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:18:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving a PERQ 1a In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Sep 1, 12 06:12:22 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, and all, > > Again thanks for the good counsel. The basic PERQ passed each phase > of checkout testing just fine. The monitor and keyboard both had issues Excellent. At least you don't ahve a PSU to rebuild... That's not an easy job. Repairing logic boards which you also don't need to do, is actually quite fun :-) > . For the moment, I've swapped in working items, while I look through I will forgive you -- jsut htis once. What are the problems with the keybaord and monitor? I have the official scehamtics for the latter and a hand-traced set for the former. I am sure we can et those workign too. > those issues. With those in place, the system booted right into PNX. > Basic UNIX operations ran without a hitch. I've not located the right > archive box for software yet, so that will have to wait for another > weekend. There's also problem of cable insulation peeling off on the > 'good' keyboard and monitor leads. That too gets queued for attention. Yes, that's another proble,. It happens to these old cables, the outer jacket gets stiff and crumbles. Fortuantely there's a screening foil under it , so the cable is still just about useable. Remplaicng hte cabel, or sliding sleeving over it is not easy. The D conenctor is oen of thsoe oens with crimped pins put into a housing. If you nake it apart, for $deity's sake make a ogod diagram of what goes where. Replacing the cable, at leeat the monitor cable, would eb fun too, from what I remember there are tewised pairs in it. > But all in all quite a successful outcome. I will keep interested > parties posted. If you want to see this system, it's in TNMoC's > multi-purpose/scientific computing gallery. Although IMHO PNX is the least intersting of the PERQ OS's (there's not that much that is PERQ-specific in it), it's probably the most appropriate for an ICL exhibit. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 14:38:09 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 20:38:09 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 September 2012 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 31 August 2012 19:55, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> They were, yes, but then again, there are SD and CF interfaces for >> >> earlier devices such as the ZX Spectrum now, so it is doable. >> > >> > I didn;t think the system bus was availabe on either of these machines. >> > SO making an adapter could be 'interesting'. >> >> Good point, yes. >> >> > Didn;'t the Z88 take memeory >> > cartridsges, though? A cartridge to take a flash card would eb intersting... >> >> I did some trivial research into this. >> >> The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM. >> There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash, >> I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional >> media readers. > > Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the > ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be > known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them. > No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough > machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. They're just bigger versions of the same old design: http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/z88/flash.html ? The Cambridge Z88 Flash EPROM by Rakewell Limited is an innovative solution to the problem of data storage on the Z88 Computer, fitting into the third slot on the Z88. This Flash EPROM provides 1Mb of storage space, at breakneck speeds. The EPROM can be formatted by the Z88 itself in just 10 seconds, (no need for a separate EPROM eraser). Saving and loading files is over 40 times faster than the standard EPROM pack - the speed is 6.6K/sec compared to 0.16K/sec, meaning a 10Kb file takes just 2 seconds to copy. However, just like the original EPROM packs, the Flash EPROM does not lose its data when it is removed or if power is lost from the Z88. It also uses less power than standard EPROM packs. Files can be deleted from the Flash EPROM singly or completely with the format command. A BASIC program is provided on the card to allow immediate use of Format, Catalogue, Save, Fetch and Restore all files. Only ?70 plus ?5 post and packing (in the UK) ? > Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA > interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can > read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make > sense of the Amstrad's card. *WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and less work than RS232 file transfer. Sure, I've done data-recovery from media before; I've even written my own disc-sector editor to facilitate it. It is not something I am going to do merely in order to use an antique to do some writing on. If it takes that much hassle, sorry, no, I'm just going to use a laptop instead. > You are lucky. I find I need to do it all the time with my machines, it's > oen reason I use RS232 a lot. Fair call. We long ago established that you & I want different things, Tony. > Perhaps if you could do it, you'd find you > wanted to do it :-) Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase - but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent ?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes. I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find it a pain. (My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the overstrikes it had used to create boldface and underline. Quite a triumph that was. *NOT* something I am going to do in order to retrieve my copy from a 1980s portable that I would quite like to use instead of a modern laptop PC, just for a change.) Let me explain: > Before I connect 2 RS232 > devives I've not used before, I sit down for a few minutes iwth the > manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And > configure things accordingly. That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me. When you say: > I suspect that is the reason I have no problems. The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that - life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance. > There is certainly something in that :-) However, I don;t object ot > readong an OS manual -- or even source code -- to get a classic computer > running. And I put sorting out an RS232 connection very much on that > level. Depends what you want to do. I found it a very interesting exercise to get VAX/VMS running in an emulator. If I had had to wire up a terminal cable as well, I would not have bothered, because I hate soldering and I hate making up cables. Manuals, yes. OSs, yes. Cables, soldering, no, not if I can possibly avoid it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 15:01:32 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 15:01:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tha 8-A cound have a 12 slot or 20 slot backplane, and the transformer would depend on which one also. The 20 slots are getting very difficult to find. The system came without them? Paul On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 6:49 AM, Brenton Bryant wrote: > Recently I found an incomplete PDP-8/a and need the transformer and > backplane to start working on it. If anyone has one or both then please let > me know. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 15:13:34 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 13:13:34 -0700 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> On 9/1/12 12:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > IIRC in the fairly early stages of the GNU OS project, they looked at > and considered using the kernel from BSD - 4.3 Net/1 or thereabouts, I > think. I'm looking for more detail or a web reference. > In the very earliest days, they were talking about using Trix, which was developed at MIT. http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/users-guide/using_gnuhurd.html 1.3 History Richard Stallman (RMS) started GNUin 1983, as a project to create a complete free operating system. In the text of the GNU Manifesto, he mentioned that there is a primitive kernel. In the first GNUsletter, Feb. 1986, he says that GNU's kernel is TRIX, which was developed at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. By December of 1986, the Free Software Foundation (FSF) had ?started working on the changes needed to TRIX? [Gnusletter, Jan. 1987]. Shortly thereafter, the FSF began ?negotiating with Professor Rashid of Carnegie-Mellon University about working with them on the development of the Mach kernel? [Gnusletter, June, 1987]. The text implies that the FSF wanted to use someone else's work, rather than have to fix TRIX. In [Gnusletter, Feb. 1988], RMS was talking about taking Mach and putting the Berkeley Sprite filesystem on top of it, ?after the parts of Berkeley Unix... have been replaced.? Six months later, the FSF is saying that ?if we can't get Mach, we'll use TRIX or Berkeley's Sprite.? Here, they present Sprite as a full-kernel option, rather than just a filesystem. In January, 1990, they say ?we aren't doing any kernel work. It does not make sense for us to start a kernel project now, when we still hope to use Mach? [Gnusletter, Jan. 1990]. Nothing significant occurs until 1991, when a more detailed plan is announced: From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 17:05:58 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 15:05:58 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504286C6.6030904@gmail.com> On 8/30/2012 2:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The one I purchased has a 5-pin DIN connector labeled "RF Modulator >> Only" which gives me hope that the video interface is nothing too crazy > I cna think of no sane reason to use an RF modulator with anything other > than a TV-rate video signal. And depending on coutry of origin, the > signal will either nbe 525 line RS170 or 625 lin system B/G/I (all much > the smae for this purpose). Neither are hard to find something to > display them. > > I would guess the DIN socket carries ground, composite video and a power > supply line (12V?). I shouldn't be hard to trace them > > -tony > The wiring for the DIN socket is exactly as Tony describes, including the 12V line. So that should be easy to wire up. On the negative side of things, the power supply's 5VDC line is basically AC at the moment. This wouldn't be so bad except that the seller powered the system up before listing it, so I hope nothing got damaged... - Josh From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 17:12:53 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:12:53 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1 September 2012 21:13, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/1/12 12:04 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> IIRC in the fairly early stages of the GNU OS project, they looked at >> and considered using the kernel from BSD - 4.3 Net/1 or thereabouts, I >> think. I'm looking for more detail or a web reference. >> > > In the very earliest days, they were talking about using Trix, which was > developed at MIT. > > http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/users-guide/using_gnuhurd.html > > 1.3 History > > Richard Stallman (RMS) started GNUin 1983, as a project to create a complete > free operating system. In the text of the GNU Manifesto, he mentioned that > there is a primitive kernel. In the first GNUsletter, Feb. 1986, he says > that GNU's kernel is TRIX, which was developed at the Massachusetts > Institute of Technology. > > By December of 1986, the Free Software Foundation (FSF) had ?started working > on the changes needed to TRIX? [Gnusletter, Jan. 1987]. Shortly thereafter, > the FSF began ?negotiating with Professor Rashid of Carnegie-Mellon > University about working with them on the development of the Mach kernel? > [Gnusletter, June, 1987]. The text implies that the FSF wanted to use > someone else's work, rather than have to fix TRIX. > > In [Gnusletter, Feb. 1988], RMS was talking about taking Mach and putting > the Berkeley Sprite filesystem on top of it, ?after the parts of Berkeley > Unix... have been replaced.? > > Six months later, the FSF is saying that ?if we can't get Mach, we'll use > TRIX or Berkeley's Sprite.? Here, they present Sprite as a full-kernel > option, rather than just a filesystem. > > In January, 1990, they say ?we aren't doing any kernel work. It does not > make sense for us to start a kernel project now, when we still hope to use > Mach? [Gnusletter, Jan. 1990]. Nothing significant occurs until 1991, when a > more detailed plan is announced: Interesting stuff! Many thanks! In the end, after /much/ more digging, I found this: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050727225542530 So candidates were TRIX, Sprite, BSD, UZI, then they tried to build HURD and in the end it became Linux. There's a line about tangled webs that springs to mind. I can't help but wonder what would have happened had they gone with BSD. I think that memoir might be a bit out though. It mentions BSD 4.4-Lite. That was 1994, I think, by which point Linux was up to version 1.0 after 3y of hard work. Too late; doesn't fit the story. Looking at the timings, I think Net/1 seems more likely - that was 4.3BSD, in 1989, the first unencumbered release and it fits the chronology better. If the GNU project had discarded most of Net/1 except the kernel, all the userland and so on, there could have been a working free Unix by about 1990. Linux would never have happened - Linux has said as much - and maybe the Free/Net/Open BSD splintering wouldn't, either. If there had been a viable free Unix out the door in the era of Windows 3.1, before NT or 95, the computing world would have been /very/ different, I think. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 1 18:10:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 19:10:08 -0400 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> On 09/01/2012 06:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > So candidates were TRIX, Sprite, BSD, UZI, then they tried to build > HURD and in the end it became Linux. Well, to the very end of that sentence, I say "yes and no". The Linux crowd used a lot of GNU userland stuff from the very beginning, with little or no involvement from the GNU project, and certainly no *official* involvement. When RMS realized (well, more like "admitted to himself") that the Hurd was essentially stillborn, they pretty much laid claim to Linux. As far as I saw, they didn't go so far as revisionist historianism, but they did try VERY hard to get everyone to call it "GNU/Linux". That riding-on-coattails thing is something they should've been pretty embarrassed about, but they certainly didn't seem to be at the time. RMS was not at all bashful about discussing Linux as "GNU/Linux" at every turn, simply because they adopted the GNU userland utilities...as did several other OSs. Windows, for example, doesn't somehow become "GNU/Windows" when one installs Cygwin. ;) The GNU OS project went on and on for a long time, as the dream of several people, so I think it was very tough for them to just throw in the towel and be content with the fact that their *utilities* were what the world depended on, and they didn't build the entire OS. Of course this is all just useless "what the hell would I know, I was only THERE" type of information, but I could put it on a webpage if you like. ;) All the happenings from that era, which wasn't really very long ago at all, well less than a decade, and all of the above is pretty generally known. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Sat Sep 1 18:16:43 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 19:16:43 -0400 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5042975B.2060508@jonworld.com> On 9/1/2012 7:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > The GNU OS project went on and on for a long time, as the dream of > several people, so I think it was very tough for them to just throw in > the towel and be content with the fact that their *utilities* were > what the world depended on, and they didn't build the entire OS. I remember bootstrapping the GNU/HURD circa 1998 for grins. It was a real PITA, though. It may be worth trying to run as a VM these days just to play with. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sat Sep 1 18:27:03 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 19:27:03 -0400 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5042975B.2060508@jonworld.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> <5042975B.2060508@jonworld.com> Message-ID: <1F74EFF2-ADF3-4E91-B81F-04031F552E6B@me.com> I tried it last about a year or two ago. I didn't manage to get it working. It's still very rough and needs a lot more work. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-01, at 7:16 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On 9/1/2012 7:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> The GNU OS project went on and on for a long time, as the dream of several people, so I think it was very tough for them to just throw in the towel and be content with the fact that their *utilities* were what the world depended on, and they didn't build the entire OS. > > I remember bootstrapping the GNU/HURD circa 1998 for grins. It was a real PITA, though. It may be worth trying to run as a VM these days just to play with. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 1 18:39:33 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 16:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Sep 1, 12 07:10:08 pm" Message-ID: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> > Well, to the very end of that sentence, I say "yes and no". The > Linux crowd used a lot of GNU userland stuff from the very beginning, > with little or no involvement from the GNU project, and certainly no > *official* involvement. When RMS realized (well, more like "admitted to > himself") that the Hurd was essentially stillborn, they pretty much laid > claim to Linux. As far as I saw, they didn't go so far as revisionist > historianism, but they did try VERY hard to get everyone to call it > "GNU/Linux". That riding-on-coattails thing is something they should've > been pretty embarrassed about, but they certainly didn't seem to be at > the time. RMS was not at all bashful about discussing Linux as > "GNU/Linux" at every turn, simply because they adopted the GNU userland > utilities...as did several other OSs. These are the kinds of actions that make people shake their head, but that's probably exactly what RMS wants to have happen. I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with him for any length of time. But I respect that he is consistent in his views and not hypocritical about implementing them, even if that makes him unpopular (and even if his views are batsh*t crazy sometimes). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Sep 1 18:46:49 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 16:46:49 -0700 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> References: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50429E69.5010802@mail.msu.edu> On 9/1/2012 4:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Well, to the very end of that sentence, I say "yes and no". The >> Linux crowd used a lot of GNU userland stuff from the very beginning, >> with little or no involvement from the GNU project, and certainly no >> *official* involvement. When RMS realized (well, more like "admitted to >> himself") that the Hurd was essentially stillborn, they pretty much laid >> claim to Linux. As far as I saw, they didn't go so far as revisionist >> historianism, but they did try VERY hard to get everyone to call it >> "GNU/Linux". That riding-on-coattails thing is something they should've >> been pretty embarrassed about, but they certainly didn't seem to be at >> the time. RMS was not at all bashful about discussing Linux as >> "GNU/Linux" at every turn, simply because they adopted the GNU userland >> utilities...as did several other OSs. > These are the kinds of actions that make people shake their head, but > that's probably exactly what RMS wants to have happen. > > I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with > him for any length of time. But I respect that he is consistent in his > views and not hypocritical about implementing them, even if that makes him > unpopular (and even if his views are batsh*t crazy sometimes). > I got a pretty good chuckle out of this, RMS's "tour rider." It starts off fairly sane and then gets downright bizarre. "If you can find a host for me that has a friendly parrot, I will be very very glad." (but DO NOT give him a parrot.) https://secure.mysociety.org/admin/lists/pipermail/developers-public/2011-October/007647.html - Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 18:47:29 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 16:47:29 -0700 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> References: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50429E91.1020903@bitsavers.org> On 9/1/12 4:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with > him for any length of time. You don't want to be in the same room with him for other reasons. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 1 19:03:11 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 17:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <50429E91.1020903@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Sep 1, 12 04:47:29 pm" Message-ID: <201209020003.q8203BeF10223686@floodgap.com> > > I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with > > him for any length of time. > > You don't want to be in the same room with him for other reasons. I had heard he had "personal issues" but I'm not sure what to say about those. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 10% of computer users [use] Mac ... the top 10 percent. -- Douglas Adams --- From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 19:38:03 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 01:38:03 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 00:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/01/2012 06:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> So candidates were TRIX, Sprite, BSD, UZI, then they tried to build >> HURD and in the end it became Linux. > > Well, to the very end of that sentence, I say "yes and no". The Linux > crowd used a lot of GNU userland stuff from the very beginning, with little > or no involvement from the GNU project, and certainly no *official* > involvement. [Nod] > When RMS realized (well, more like "admitted to himself") that > the Hurd was essentially stillborn, they pretty much laid claim to Linux. > As far as I saw, they didn't go so far as revisionist historianism, but they > did try VERY hard to get everyone to call it "GNU/Linux". Sounds about right. I was following with mild interest until the Linux kernel passed version 1.0, at which point I started paying attention, attempting to get the thing to install, etc. > That > riding-on-coattails thing is something they should've been pretty > embarrassed about, but they certainly didn't seem to be at the time. RMS > was not at all bashful about discussing Linux as "GNU/Linux" at every turn, > simply because they adopted the GNU userland utilities...as did several > other OSs. I'd agree with that, but as RMS sees it (I reckon), it was built using his tools to work with his userland; it would be nothing without the GNU Project, and thus it's de facto /part/ of the GNU Project. > Windows, for example, doesn't somehow become "GNU/Windows" when one > installs Cygwin. ;) Ha! Good point! > The GNU OS project went on and on for a long time, as the dream of several > people, so I think it was very tough for them to just throw in the towel and > be content with the fact that their *utilities* were what the world depended > on, and they didn't build the entire OS. Well, in the longer run, I think Andy Tanenbaum was right. The monolithic-kernel ideal was past its time in 1991 and it's ridiculously so 20+ yr later. Even now it's based on L4 and not Mach, I think the microkernel idea has merit. There are others out there - Minix 3 springs to mind. I suspect that eventually the Linux project will just run out of steam, falter and stagnate, and maybe, just maybe, by then, the distributed/loosely-coupled-array-of-servers type of OS will rise up from its ancient slumber and take over the world. I have also read that the design of Plan 9 makes the whole monolithic kernel/microkernel debate moot, but I don't know enough about Plan 9 to judge & anyone who does is unable to talk down to my level to explain it to me. ;?) > Of course this is all just useless "what the hell would I know, I was only > THERE" type of information, but I could put it on a webpage if you like. ;) > All the happenings from that era, which wasn't really very long ago at all, > well less than a decade, and all of the above is pretty generally known. The real mostly-forgotten story, as I remember it, is here: http://www.h-online.com/open/features/GNU-HURD-Altered-visions-and-lost-promise-1030942.html?page=2 ... as sourced from here: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050727225542530 That's one of the biggest missed opportunities in the history of computing right there. It took 4 or 5 /years/ from 4.3BSD Net/1 to BSD 4.4-Lite, when the real work could really begin. By then, Linux + GNU had stolen the thunder. If GNU had adopted the BSD kernel in the late '80s, then the whole AT&T code issue would have gone away. (AIUI.) There might not /be/ a BSD family of Unixes (which would be a shame) but the Free Unix world would have got bootstrapped before Microsoft got in there. For me, the greatest missed opportunities in the last 30y of computing were (in approximate chronological order): * Sinclair's Spectrum 128 *not* being based on the Timex TS2068 improved ULA (Sinclair was focussing on the abortive QL & missed the chance to keep the Spectrum on top of the 8-bit heap) * Apple castrating DR GEM on x86, leading to the split from the 680x0 version (GEM as a multitasking GUI on top of a multitasking CDOS386-based OS? Yes please!) * OS/2 1.x not being 386-specific, in which case, it coulda been a contender (Allegedly IBM wanting to support its 286 customers, but visibly stupid /even at the time/) * GNU not adopting the BSD kernel in 1989-1990 (Stalling the development of a Free Unix for 4-5 vital years) * Quarterdeck not getting Desqview/X out until after Windows 3.1 (DVX was fantastic, but too late) * Apple rushing the Newton out before it was ready (Abandoning Dylan, which could have been a truly transformative language, I still feel) * Apple not spotting that the answer to Pink, Copland etc. was A/UX on PowerPC (But that would have killed the NeXT deal, which saved the company, so... moot) * Be and BeOS getting shafted by MICROS~1 (Big players like Hitachi were bundling it but couldn't dual-boot because of MS' OEM contract on MS-DOS & Windows) Anyone got any other suggestions for the list? :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 19:41:20 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 01:41:20 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> References: <504295D0.6040905@neurotica.com> <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 00:39, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > These are the kinds of actions that make people shake their head, but > that's probably exactly what RMS wants to have happen. > > I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with > him for any length of time. But I respect that he is consistent in his > views and not hypocritical about implementing them, even if that makes him > unpopular (and even if his views are batsh*t crazy sometimes). I have heard that he is an intolerable PITA in many ways, personally and professionally, but he is possibly an actual genius, certainly remarkably far-sighted and clear-sighted (at least some of the time), and at the end of the day, without him, we wouldn't have Linux and the computer world would be a much poorer place. GNU/Linux is a truly transformative piece of technology, and I think its greatest potential still lies ahead of it. I suspect it will be in the time when the 5 billion or so people of the developing world come online & get access to the Internet and the Web. That is going to truly change the world, and I don't believe any proprietary tech is going to do it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 19:51:16 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 17:51:16 -0700 Subject: HP Computer and Test Gear Estate Sale In-Reply-To: <4FE6E3B1.5010507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4FE64FBF.1070108@bitsavers.org> <4FE6E3B1.5010507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5042AD84.9070207@gmail.com> Just ran across this on Craigslist. I have nothing to do with it. http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3243934965.html As low as $20 but items like the spectrum analyzer and other specialized items are of course are higher. Items belonged to my Dad. Part of the estate. Some have been tested. Some you may be able to test. You can buy everything as a lot or pieces. Call me to make sure that your items are availalbe. Call John 408 741-1549 Vintage Hewlett-Packard Computers and Test Equipment 1 HP 98255A Ram Card Circuit Board 6 2 HP 09826-88617A cpu Circuit Board 1 3 HP 9256A/ 09826-66524 Circuit Board 22 Rev B, D 4 HP GPIO 98622A Pin Connector Board 6 12 Select code 5 HP 98625A Pin Connector Board/Disc Interface 1 14 Select code 6 HP-IB 98624A Pin Connector Board/Disc Interface 1 8 Select code 7 HP 98270F/ 09826-66555 Power Fail Option Circuit Board 1 8 HP 1420-0303 Nickel-Cadmium Battery 1 Rechargable 9 DAVEN TS-629D/U Audio Level test panel 2 10 HP 103AR Quartz Oscillator 2 13 HP 711-A Power Supply 1 14 HP 61011A Relay Multiplexer 12 15 HP 61010A Digital I/O 1 16 HP 61014A Function Generator 1 17 HP 61017A Relay Actuator 20 18 HP 61016A Digitalizing Oscilloscope 4 50 MHz 19 HP 61015A Counter 3 20 HP 61013A Digital Multimeter 4 21 HP 9000 220 Computer 8 22 HP 59301A ASCII to Parallel Converter 2 23 HP 59501B Isolated DAC/Power Supply Programmer 1 24 HP 6291A DC Power Supply 2 26 HP 5316A Universal counter 1 27 HP 3465A Digital Multimeter 1 28 HP 3438A Digital Multimeter 1 29 HP 47310A A/D Converter 3 30 HP 86602A RF Section 3 1 missing knobs 31 HP 11707A Test Plug in 1 32 HP 6281A DC Power Supply 1 33 HP 6290A DC Power Supply 1 34 HP 59306A Relay Actuator 6 35 HP 59309A HP-IB Digital Clock 1 36 HP 59313A A/D Converter 1 37 HP 59400A HP-IB IRS 332-TTY Interface 1 38 HALCYON 801A Mini Fox 1 Blue carrying case 39 HP 9895A Flexible disc memory 3 40 COMPUPRO Computer 1 41 HP 9920 Series 200 Computer 4 42 Industrial Computer Source Computer 1 43 HP 59824 Scanning Interface 1 44 Scientific Atlanta 1750 Wide Range Phase/Amplitude Receiving System 1 45 HP 8559A Spectrum Analyzer 1 and 853A Spectrum Analyzer Disply 46 HP 8565A Spectrum Analyzer 1 47 HP 85007A Display Generator 1 48 HP 9888A Bus Expander 1 49 HP 1980B Oscilloscope measurement System 1 50 HP 8660C Sythesized Signal Generator 4 51 HP 8660A Sythesized Signal Generator 2 52 HP 86622B Modulation Station 2 53 HP 86623B Modulation Station 1 54 HP 86603A RF Section 4 55 HP 85434A Output Control 1 56 HP 86601A RF Section 2 57 HP 9000 236 Zipper Floppy Drives 1 Keyboard Attached 58 HP 9836 Computer with Floppy Drives 3 Keyboard Attached 59 HP 9122 Computer with Floppy Drives 1 60 HP 9121 Computer with Floppy Drives 1 61 CP Clare and Co. Mercury Wetted Contact Relay Bank 1 62 HP 7200i Internal SC ReWrittable Drive 1 63 Circuit Board Rack/ Chip Tester 1 Blue Circuit Boards 64 HP 59824 Scanning Interface 1 66 HP 6439B DC Power Supply 1 67 HP 3964 A Instrumentation Recorder 2 68 HP Display 5 69 HP 522B Electronic Counter 1 70 Model 411 Oscillosope 1 Missing 1 CRT 71 HP 6267 DC Power Supply 1 72 HP 8710A Tracking Filter 1 73 HP 1350 Graphic Translator 1 From doc at vaxen.net Sat Sep 1 20:39:43 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 20:39:43 -0500 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> On 9/1/12 5:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > So candidates were TRIX, Sprite, BSD, UZI, then they tried to build > HURD and in the end it became Linux. No, not at all. RMS fiercely fought (may still do) Linux's "takeover" of the GNU environment. The whole "GNU/Linux" thing wasn't an effort to coopt Linux as part of GNU, but rather RMS's attempt to force Linux users and vendors to acknowledge GNU as the OS and Linux as "just the kernel". I was involved in the local Linux Users' Group when all that fight was fresh. The LUG invited RMS to speak here, and he accepted the invitation - with the minor condition that we must change the name of the group from AustinLUG (Austin Linux Users' Group) to AustinG/LUG (Austin GNU/Linux Users' Group). I really don't think he even saw the humor in the suggestion.... Doc From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:50:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 03:50:39 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 02:39, Doc wrote: > On 9/1/12 5:12 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> So candidates were TRIX, Sprite, BSD, UZI, then they tried to build >> HURD and in the end it became Linux. > > No, not at all. RMS fiercely fought (may still do) Linux's "takeover" of > the GNU environment. How so? He wants credit for GNU - hell, he wants joint billing, essentially. But he has got a point. No GNU, no Linux; but no Linux, still a GNU, someway, somehow. X.org isn't a Linux thing any more, either - it also runs on the BSDs and Solaris and probably other Unices too. > The whole "GNU/Linux" thing wasn't an effort to coopt Linux as part of > GNU, but rather RMS's attempt to force Linux users and vendors to > acknowledge GNU as the OS and Linux as "just the kernel". Again, he has got a point. I don't agree with him, but his arguments are not entirely without merit. > I was involved in the local Linux Users' Group when all that fight was > fresh. The LUG invited RMS to speak here, and he accepted the invitation - > with the minor condition that we must change the name of the group from > AustinLUG (Austin Linux Users' Group) to AustinG/LUG (Austin GNU/Linux > Users' Group). > > I really don't think he even saw the humor in the suggestion.... Not famed for his sense of humour. But the thing is, the threat we all face to our freedoms from the big proprietary vendors is immense. If MICROS~1 and Apple get their way, we won't own our computers or the content on them - they will and they will have total control at all times, from bits on disk to display on screen. We will only be allowed to do what they permit us to do, and anything we thing we own or create, they can keep, take away from us, use as they wish and there won't be a damned thing we can do about it. And there is, at the end of the day, only one man who warned about this and who led a project for many decades to ensure that there /is/ an alternative. That man is not Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds or Mark Shuttleworth. It's Richard Stallman. The one, the original, and however rude, inconsiderate, hostile, intransigent, uncooperative or anything else he is, he has never wavered and remained true all the way. If in another decade people still have control of their own computers and can do whatever they want with them and the data on them, it will be because of RMS and nobody else. And frankly, for all that he can be ornery or whatever, at the end of the day, the world could not thank him enough for that. People have won Nobel prizes for a lot less. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From asc135 at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 22:29:20 2012 From: asc135 at gmail.com (Amardeep S Chana) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:29:20 -0400 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S Message-ID: Every so often, since the beginning of the "interweb," I've wasted a few hours scouring the vast stores of information for a glimmer of data on the Motorola SC80951S chip. All I find are the part pimps peddling them for sums which they'll only disclose if you file a formal RFQ. No datasheets or even a simple description of the part's function can be found anywhere. I amuse myself by wondering if I had somehow acquired some super secret component that played a crucial part in the downfall of the Eastern Bloc. Eventually reality kicks in and I realize it wouldn't have a Motorola logo on it if that was the case. So here I am, before what probably amounts to the most comprehensive brain trust in vintage compute technology, to ask if any of you folks know what this thing is. Here is a link to a photograph: http://www.aximel.com/files/SC80951S.jpg Though I could not focus close enough to get a picture of the wafer, it appears to have some regions that suggest an EPROM memory array, some smaller regions that might be SRAM, and various other complicated looking shapes that may just be a CPU of some sort. I'm mostly interested in learning what it is. But if you can find me a data sheet I'll gladly share half a dozen of them with you. :-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 22:41:51 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:41:51 -0400 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Every so often, since the beginning of the "interweb," I've wasted a few > hours scouring the vast stores of information for a glimmer of data on the > Motorola SC80951S chip. All I find are the part pimps peddling them for > sums which they'll only disclose if you file a formal RFQ. No datasheets > or even a simple description of the part's function can be found anywhere. The SC prefix from Motorola means it is a custom or semicustom device, so the likely datasheets were never released beyond the customer. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 23:11:02 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:11:02 -0700 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5042DC56.8010404@bitsavers.org> On 9/1/12 8:29 PM, Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Though I could not focus close enough to get a picture of the wafer, it > appears to have some regions that suggest an EPROM memory array, some > smaller regions that might be SRAM, and various other complicated looking > shapes that may just be a CPU of some sort. > It is probably some variant of the 68705 microcontroller. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 23:28:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2012 21:28:23 -0700 Subject: Intel multibus disk and ethernet manuals Message-ID: <5042E067.6040806@bitsavers.org> I finally turned up copies of the rare iSBC 215 disk controller and 522 ethernet controller manuals. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/iSBC/144780-002_iSBC_215_Generic_Winchester_Disk_Controller_Hardware_Reference_Manual_Dec84.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/iSBC/122141-002_iSBC522_Ethernet_Hardware_Ref_Apr85.pdf The 215 was the basis for the DSD/Qualogy board used in the SGI Iris. From memory, the guys that did the Intel board left and went to work for DSD (it is software compatible with the iSBC 215) http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040040-01_5215_UG_Apr84.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040069-01_5217_UsersAdden.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsd/040074-01_6214-6217_UG.pdf From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 2 04:14:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 05:14:12 -0400 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <201209020003.q8203BeF10223686@floodgap.com> References: <201209020003.q8203BeF10223686@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50432364.6090507@neurotica.com> On 09/01/2012 08:03 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with >>> him for any length of time. >> >> You don't want to be in the same room with him for other reasons. > > I had heard he had "personal issues" but I'm not sure what to say about > those. It's very common in those circles. (the MIT super-genius crowd) I don't know what the deal is, but it can get downright powerful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From doc at vaxen.net Sun Sep 2 08:59:09 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 08:59:09 -0500 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> On 9/1/12 9:50 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > X.org isn't a Linux thing any more, either - it also runs on the BSDs > and Solaris and probably other Unices too. X.org, nee XFree86, never was a Linux thing, any more than GNU. Like the GNU environment, it started as a cross-platform Free implementation of commercial unix tools. As far as I know or can remember, neither X.org or XFree86 ever existed as a Linux-only implementation. > If in another decade people still have control of their own computers > and can do whatever they want with them and the data on them, it will > be because of RMS and nobody else. > > And frankly, for all that he can be ornery or whatever, at the end of > the day, the world could not thank him enough for that. People have > won Nobel prizes for a lot less. I won't argue that at all. As a matter of fact, I may have *said* all that a time or 20... Doc From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 10:00:47 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 16:00:47 +0100 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 14:59, Doc wrote: > On 9/1/12 9:50 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> X.org isn't a Linux thing any more, either - it also runs on the BSDs >> and Solaris and probably other Unices too. > > X.org, nee XFree86, never was a Linux thing, any more than GNU. Like the > GNU environment, it started as a cross-platform Free implementation of > commercial unix tools. As far as I know or can remember, neither X.org or > XFree86 ever existed as a Linux-only implementation. I'll take your word. I am fairly ignorant of the BSD world - the only BSD I've ever managed to install and get to boot up to a GUI was PC-BSD, which is kinda cheating. I was under the impression that for many years, in the XFree86 era, the BSDs maintained their own X.11 servers, and Solaris still does, the last time I looked - it offers the Sun X server for Sun graphics hardware and X.org for non-Sun kit. I have no experience with AIX on x86, only on RIOS/ROMP, but AFAIAA, all the commercial Unices still maintain their own X servers, or did until they died. Was XFree86 /never/ just a Linux-on-x86 project? >> If in another decade people still have control of their own computers >> and can do whatever they want with them and the data on them, it will >> be because of RMS and nobody else. >> >> And frankly, for all that he can be ornery or whatever, at the end of >> the day, the world could not thank him enough for that. People have >> won Nobel prizes for a lot less. > > I won't argue that at all. As a matter of fact, I may have *said* all > that a time or 20... Fair enough. Your comment that ?RMS fiercely fought (may still do) Linux's "takeover" of the GNU environment? seemed harsh to me, but looking back, I think you were misinterpreting /me/ and thus /in context/ it was not so harsh. When I said "Linux 'took over' GNU", I don't mean that the former own or dominates the latter or anything like that. All I'm getting at is that it's the default pairing. The BSDs have their own userlands to go with their own kernels (notwithstanding Debian k/FreeBSD et al); the open-Solaris-distros such as Illumos, Belenix, Schillix etc. I believe still use a Sun libc and graft a GNU userland /beside/ rather than /instead of/ the Oracle one. The various incarnations of the HURD are very minority offerings indeed and most of the other Unix-like kernels have their own userland. You pretty much only get the GNU userland on Linux and you pretty much only get Linux underneath the GNU userland. That is all I meant when I said "takeover". -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Sep 2 10:38:14 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 11:38:14 -0400 Subject: RMS warned everyone, the rest is up to us -- Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50437D66.9020601@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/09/12 10:50 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > ... > But the thing is, the threat we all face to our freedoms from the big > proprietary vendors is immense. ... > > And there is, at the end of the day, only one man who warned about > this and who led a project for many decades to ensure that there /is/ > an alternative. That man is not Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds or Mark > Shuttleworth. It's Richard Stallman. ... at the end of > the day, the world could not thank him enough for that. People have > won Nobel prizes for a lot less. > +1000 Thankyou. --Toby From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 14:29:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 20:29:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 1, 12 08:38:09 pm Message-ID: > >> The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM. > >> There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash, > >> I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional > >> media readers. > > > > Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the > > ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be > > known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them. > > No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough > > machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. > > They're just bigger versions of the same old design: Sure, but you misunderstood me. AFAIK the original cartridges were not jsut a signle stnadard IC, and there is no single, stanmdard. IC with more cpaactiy that you cna just plug in. Ot make a cartridge you have to desgin some logic to interface a memory device to the Z88. And to design that logic you have to understnad the interface between the cartridge and the rest of the Z88. I have no idea how easy it is to find this information, but it would appear if you know it, it is possible to make other thigns that interface to the cartridges (origianl or modern). In aprticular, say, a USB-interfaced reader/writer. [...] [Amstrad PCMCIA card] > > Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA > > interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can > > read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make > > sense of the Amstrad's card. > > *WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and > less work than RS232 file transfer. Surely it depends on how often you haev to do it. It's way too much work if you only ever have to transfer data once. It nay be worth doing if you need to do it time and again. It takes considerable time to set it up the first tiem, after that it's very easy. > > Perhaps if you could do it, you'd find you > > wanted to do it :-) > > Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am > perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase - > but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent > ?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes. Sure. Bu to stick wit hthe bookcase example, you know enough about woodwork that if Ikea don't ahve soemthign that will suit your needs, you could make it from scratch. Or you could modify an Ikea bookcase to suit your needs (been there, done that...) To get back ot classic computing and making up cables. I have the tools and probalby the skill to make a connector. I could turn the pins from metal rod, drill the insualtor using the vertical side lto give X_Y positioningm, mill the hosuing gto ma metal block (wasteful, but I don't have a usitable press to firm it from a metal sheet) and so on. But I am not going to do that for a DB25 plug. I will got to any one of a number of suppliers and buy one. As will jsut about anyone elre here. But if I need a strange connector that's no longer made -- say the large 9-pin plug used on old Creed teleprinters -- then I would make it myself. It would be worth spending the tiem to get the machine running again. SImialrly, I am not going to make M3 screws from scratch, I can buy a bag of 100 for a few pounds. But when I needed M3*0.6mm screws -- the old French ones -- to fix a telephone, of course I made them. There was no other way. I don't much like programming. But I know enough C to write simple utilities when I have to. I'd rather not, but given the choice between speind in evening writing a little code and having a non-working machine, I'll do the former. > > I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find > it a pain. OK, most of us work with classic computers as a hobby, and by defintion a hobby is soemthing you enjoy doing. You don't pick a hobby that you hate :-) However, in classic computing (as in any hobby?) there are many different things to do. So you will never want to do (I do not want to write an emulator for any classic computer I own, I don't want to write a new OS for such a machine. You don;'t want to attack a PDP11 with a logic analyser). There are things you do enjoy (I _do_ want to attack a PDP11 with a logic analyser). That's fine, we each do the bits that interest us. However, sometimes oyu have to do soemthing you don't like that much. I don't like cleaning keycaps. It's boring. But I find I have to do it on just aobut every classic computer I get. I don't enjoy cleaning up the remains of a platten roller in an HP9810 (it's the most disgusting goo you cna imagine, and it gets everyhwhere), but I love that family of machines so muc htat I will do it. You don't enjoy soldering up cables, but I would argue sometimes you would ahve to do it to get a mahcine running. > > (My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary > QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its > printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC > program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the As an aside, you were lucky. Qume had a strange 20-somethign bit parallel itnerface to soem of their diasywheel printers, the bits sleecte the chracter on the wheel, how much to move the carriage after pritning it, etc. Not easy to capture on another machine at all. Oh, and Diabloe had a similar interface on some models of the 630 printer. It wea similar, but certainly not the same... > > manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And > > configure things accordingly. > > That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me. It's much less of a pain in the backside that finding you have a USB device but no driver exists for the version of the OS you happen to be running :-). At least with RS232 I have a fighting chance of being able ot fix it myself. I would rather sit down with the 'scope and datacomms analyser than play telephone tag with a so-called technical support department... > > When you say: > > > I suspect that is the reason I have no problems. > > The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that - > life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance. Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 14:32:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 20:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <504286C6.6030904@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 1, 12 03:05:58 pm Message-ID: > The wiring for the DIN socket is exactly as Tony describes, including > the 12V line. So that should be easy to wire up. On the negative side That is what I call a 'lucky guess' :-) > of things, the power supply's 5VDC line is basically AC at the moment. > This wouldn't be so bad except that the seller powered the system up > before listing it, so I hope nothing got damaged... Hmmm.. Does it acvtually go -ve, or is it just exessive ripple (maybe dropping to 0V every half cylce)? I would guess the latter, indicating the smooting capacitor has totally dried up. This is unlikely to have done much damage, although of course you will ahve to fix it befroe the system has a chance of working. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 2 14:59:13 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 12:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: <50412707.8030501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 31 August 2012 23:00, geneb wrote: >> >> Even worse - in 17 years of using Windows, I've never had a problem that >> wasn't self-inflicted. Not. One. Problem. > > Wow. What, you've /never/ had a BSOD or anything? Not one? > The only BSODs I've had were due to beta video drivers (self-inflicted) and I ran into a flakey 4GB DRAM stick a few years ago. >> Then again, in the 20+ years of using Unix & Unix-like systems, the same >> thing holds true. :) > > I've seen kernel panics on Linux, but only a /looooooong/ time ago - > Red Hat 4.2 on SPARC, I think. I've seen the kernel "oops" recently, > but it kept running & there was no data loss. > I've seen two panics now that I think about it. Once on a .99 something version of Linux and once on a new build of NetBSD for the MicroVAX II I had at the time. I wasn't able to repeat either one unfortunately. > I've seen my iPhone (3GS, iOS 5.1.1) freeze and spontaneously reboot. > I've wanted to throw my iPad at times. That damn Safari browser will fall over and die at the first harsh word. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 2 15:44:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:44:36 -0400 Subject: RMS warned everyone, the rest is up to us -- Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <50437D66.9020601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <50437D66.9020601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5043C534.9020901@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2012 11:38 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 01/09/12 10:50 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> ... >> But the thing is, the threat we all face to our freedoms from the big >> proprietary vendors is immense. ... >> >> And there is, at the end of the day, only one man who warned about >> this and who led a project for many decades to ensure that there /is/ >> an alternative. That man is not Eric Raymond, Linus Torvalds or Mark >> Shuttleworth. It's Richard Stallman. ... at the end of >> the day, the world could not thank him enough for that. People have >> won Nobel prizes for a lot less. >> > > +1000 > > Thankyou. Yep. There's really no excuse for not being self-reliant. And it's a hell of a lot safer. I don't trust these suits with my personal data and work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 15:46:57 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 13:46:57 -0700 Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5043C5C1.5040203@gmail.com> On 9/2/2012 12:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The wiring for the DIN socket is exactly as Tony describes, including >> the 12V line. So that should be easy to wire up. On the negative side > That is what I call a 'lucky guess' :-) > >> of things, the power supply's 5VDC line is basically AC at the moment. >> This wouldn't be so bad except that the seller powered the system up >> before listing it, so I hope nothing got damaged... > Hmmm.. Does it acvtually go -ve, or is it just exessive ripple (maybe > dropping to 0V every half cylce)? I would guess the latter, indicating > the smooting capacitor has totally dried up. This is unlikely to have > done much damage, although of course you will ahve to fix it befroe the > system has a chance of working. No, it stays positive. Just a lot of ripple (between 2 and 5V). Hopefully it's as simple as replacing the filter capacitor. The power supply in this thing looks like it's going to be fun to pull out :). - Josh > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 2 16:31:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 17:31:51 -0400 Subject: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2012 11:00 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> X.org, nee XFree86, never was a Linux thing, any more than GNU. Like the >> GNU environment, it started as a cross-platform Free implementation of >> commercial unix tools. As far as I know or can remember, neither X.org or >> XFree86 ever existed as a Linux-only implementation. > > I'll take your word. I am fairly ignorant of the BSD world - the only > BSD I've ever managed to install and get to boot up to a GUI was > PC-BSD, which is kinda cheating. > > I was under the impression that for many years, in the XFree86 era, > the BSDs maintained their own X.11 servers, and Solaris still does, > the last time I looked - it offers the Sun X server for Sun graphics > hardware and X.org for non-Sun kit. > > I have no experience with AIX on x86, only on RIOS/ROMP, but AFAIAA, > all the commercial Unices still maintain their own X servers, or did > until they died. > > Was XFree86 /never/ just a Linux-on-x86 project? X wasn't a "BSD world" thing either. It wasn't a "free UNIX" thing at all. First and foremost, X is a protocol, not a piece of software. The *reference implementation* of that protocol, and that's ALL it is, is available for free, and it compiles and runs on many different platforms, notably Sun and DEC workstations. XFree86 came along to support more of the whiz-bang graphics hardware in the PC world, all of which tended to be very inconsistent and fiddly even back then. Who in their right mind changes friggin' sync rates in order to switch in and out of graphics mode? PC video cards, that's who. Madness. Anyway, XFree86 was put together to address all that crap, primarily under Linux. Eventually, most of the free UNIX implementations started to narrow their focus to x86, even the still-very-cross-platform ones like NetBSD. They switched most of their ports over to XFree86 some time ago, when it became flexible enough to support other hardware, and that's where most of the development was focused. This wasn't all that long ago. You'll see these two implementations of the X protocol referred to as "MIT X11" and "XFree". It's important to note that "XFree" is no more "free" than MIT's freely-available X server; that's just what they chose to name it. > The various incarnations of the HURD are very minority offerings > indeed and most of the other Unix-like kernels have their own > userland. You pretty much only get the GNU userland on Linux and you > pretty much only get Linux underneath the GNU userland. Well not quite. Most commercial UNIX sysadmins, myself included, had their first introduction to GNU software as improved replacements for vendor-supplied utilities. This started happening LONG before there were any viable (or even not-so-viable!) free UNIX implementations. TO THIS DAY the first thing I do on a brand-new Solaris system is replace a few Oracle-supplied utilities like "tar" with their GNU replacements, to bring their functionality into this decade. Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dareckgorecki at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 10:05:58 2012 From: dareckgorecki at gmail.com (Dareck Gorecki) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 11:05:58 -0400 Subject: Teletype Message-ID: Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you could recommend someone here in Canada to speak with. Its a very peculiar interest and came across your thread. Any direction is of interest. Thanks. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Sep 2 16:49:22 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 17:49:22 -0400 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> Truth be told, I'd also love to find one. I've seen them come up for sale on the Fair Radio Sales website every so often, but they are stateside and as such shipping would be an issue. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-09-02, at 11:05 AM, Dareck Gorecki wrote: > Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you could > recommend someone here in Canada to speak with. Its a very peculiar > interest and came across your thread. Any direction is of interest. Thanks. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 2 17:05:30 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 18:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209022205.SAA11486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > First and foremost, X is a protocol, not a piece of software. The > *reference implementation* of that protocol, and that's ALL it is, is > available for free, and it compiles and runs on many different > platforms, notably Sun and DEC workstations. I think it's a sample implementation, not a reference implementation. It certainly used to be. (This is an important difference. With a reference implementation, the implementation _is_ the spec, by definition. With a sample implementation, the spec is something else.) > Eventually, most of the free UNIX implementations started to narrow > their focus to x86, even the still-very-cross-platform ones like > NetBSD. They switched most of their ports over to XFree86 some time > ago, when it became flexible enough to support other hardware, and > that's where most of the development was focused. This wasn't all > that long ago. This brought its own forms of madness, like X servers that do their own bus enumeration, even in cases like NetBSD/sparc where there is absolutely no excuse for it...meaning, eg, that they have to run as root even when the user starting them owns the framebuffer, keyboard, and mouse devices. There's a reason I use the X11R6.4 sample server on machines where I'm not saddled with peecee-style video-card hell. And then Xorg came along to muddy the waters further.... >> You pretty much only get the GNU userland on Linux and you pretty >> much only get Linux underneath the GNU userland. To the extent that this is true (and, as Dave points out, "the GNU userland" is not an indivisible blob of everything), it's only beacuse that's what people care to bother doing. A Linux friend of mine tells me there is, or at least was, a Linux distro that had an almost entirely BSD userland on top of the Linux kernel - about as much GNU code in userland as NetBSD, say, has. I've also heard of Linux userlands[%] running under BSD kernels.) [%] To the extent that such a thing exists - and, no, I do not mean "GNU userlands". I mean, approximately, "a userland a Linux distro might/could/does come with", which typically includes a good deal of non-GNU code. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Sep 2 17:10:56 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 18:10:56 -0400 Subject: Vendor stuff was crummy - Re: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/12 5:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ... > Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent > technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, > that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) > with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing > "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the > 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so > you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking > to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few months. Tell the kids these days - they won't believe yer. Seriously: the great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things were before GNU shook it up. It was hard to dream in 1985 that gcc would supplant just about every vendor compiler, and when RMS said he hoped this would happen, many said he was nuts (we have Usenet archives to prove it). But it did eventually happen. :) --Toby > > -Dave > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Sep 2 17:24:09 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 15:24:09 -0700 Subject: Vendor stuff was crummy - Re: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <495804C2-06E5-4B02-8918-DA8BC2FAD6AD@shiresoft.com> On Sep 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 02/09/12 5:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ... >> Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent >> technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, >> that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) >> with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing >> "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the >> 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so >> you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking >> to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few months. > > Tell the kids these days - they won't believe yer. > > Seriously: the great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things were before GNU shook it up. It was hard to dream in 1985 that gcc would supplant just about every vendor compiler, and when RMS said he hoped this would happen, many said he was nuts (we have Usenet archives to prove it). > > But it did eventually happen. :) And it's a sorry looking code base. That's why clang started up?to replace the mess that gcc had become. Free stuff is great, but the problem was no one was willing (or able) to go back and clean it up. All any of the vendors (who were the ones adding various CPU support into gcc) wanted to do was to make the smallest changes necessary to get their CPU supported. The internals to gcc have needed replacing for years. Unfortunately the internals are poorly documented and it's damn near impossible to replace the pieces of it and still have the various front ends or code gens still work. So folks started over from scratch. That's where clang came from (but admittedly to solve some other issues with gcc). TTFN - Guy From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 2 17:29:37 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 18:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vendor stuff was crummy - Re: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201209022229.SAA11756@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Seriously: the great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things were > before GNU shook it up. The great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things are now, either. Bad in completely different ways, mind you. But anyone who lived through the net with Jon Postel at the top of its governance pyramid will have some idea. (They won't all agree with me that today is worse. But I think they'll all agree that today is drastically different and that many aspects of today's setup are bad.) > It was hard to dream in 1985 that gcc would supplant just about every > vendor compiler, and when RMS said he hoped this would happen, many > said he was nuts (we have Usenet archives to prove it). I'm not sure he wasn't nuts. > But it did eventually happen. :) It did. And now we're scarily close to having a compiler monoculture. I don't consider that cure worse than the disease...but I do consider it relatively close. I dislike - and deeply distrust - monocultures of any sort. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Sep 2 18:03:36 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 19:03:36 -0400 Subject: gcc EOL? - Re: Vendor stuff was crummy - Re: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <495804C2-06E5-4B02-8918-DA8BC2FAD6AD@shiresoft.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> <495804C2-06E5-4B02-8918-DA8BC2FAD6AD@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5043E5C8.1060705@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/09/12 6:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Sep 2, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 02/09/12 5:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> ... >>> Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent >>> technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, >>> that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) >>> with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing >>> "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the >>> 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so >>> you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking >>> to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few months. >> >> Tell the kids these days - they won't believe yer. >> >> Seriously: the great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things were before GNU shook it up. It was hard to dream in 1985 that gcc would supplant just about every vendor compiler, and when RMS said he hoped this would happen, many said he was nuts (we have Usenet archives to prove it). >> >> But it did eventually happen. :) > > And it's a sorry looking code base. That's why clang started up?to replace the mess that gcc had become. Free stuff is great, but the problem was no one was willing (or able) to go back and clean it up. All any of the vendors (who were the ones adding various CPU support into gcc) wanted to do was to make the smallest changes necessary to get their CPU supported. The internals to gcc have needed replacing for years. Unfortunately the internals are poorly documented and it's damn near impossible to replace the pieces of it and still have the various front ends or code gens still work. So folks started over from scratch. That's where clang came from (but admittedly to solve some other issues with gcc). > Not disputing any of this -- it's a natural cycle. --Toby > TTFN - Guy > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 18:24:34 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 16:24:34 -0700 Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances Message-ID: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> Hi all -- Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit machine I picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at 16,000uF 15V, axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) match in an Axial form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find snap-in or screw-in types but those are going to be clumsy to retro-fit given the space it has to occupy. (plus they're pretty expensive.) How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it compromises the original design? Thanks, Josh From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 23:00:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:00:13 -0500 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> Message-ID: u guys would hate me lol suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Truth be told, I'd also love to find one. I've seen them come up for sale > on the Fair Radio Sales website every so often, but they are stateside and > as such shipping would be an issue. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-09-02, at 11:05 AM, Dareck Gorecki > wrote: > > > Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you > could > > recommend someone here in Canada to speak with. Its a very peculiar > > interest and came across your thread. Any direction is of interest. > Thanks. > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 2 23:37:20 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 00:37:20 -0400 Subject: 6809 vs 6809E Message-ID: Does anyone know if Motorola ever made 6809s that could function either as 6809 or 6809E depending on some external signal, or perhaps depending on how they were bonded out? The reason I ask is that I've been playing with an SBC designed around a 6809E. While working on writing the monitor on the first prototype, it died with what looked like a bad CPU. So I ordered a replacement, and while I was at it, ordered the parts to populate another board. Both the board with the replacement CPU and the other freshly populated board behaved the same way. After a little digging it appeared that the E and Q clock signals that should be externally driven for a 6809E were being driven by the CPU like for a 6809. I took a chance and rewired it like a 6809 and sure enough it's working now. But after numerous double checks, the chips definitely say MC68B09E/00TA6/HEQB0014. Has anyone seen anything like this? Did I end up getting a couple of chips that were mismarked? Is there a way to make them behave as 6809Es? Thanks in advance, BLS From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 3 00:28:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 00:28:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> References: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Sep 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit machine I > picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at 16,000uF 15V, > axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) match in an Axial > form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find snap-in or screw-in types > but those are going to be clumsy to retro-fit given the space it has to > occupy. (plus they're pretty expensive.) > > How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it compromises > the original design? What are the dimensions of the original capacitor (in millimeters)? If it is being used at 5V then you could go down slightly on the voltage rating, but I'm not sure I'd want to go up much higher because an even larger plate surface will result in an even thinner oxide layer being formed, which isn't optimal for electrolytics. The general rule of thumb in an application such as this is to use a capacitor that is rated for 2x the operating voltage. As far as the capacitance goes, you can probably go a little higher without too much worry (20% of 16,000uF is 3,200uF, so the original could have been 19,200uF and still would have been within specs), but I'd keep it under about 18,000-22,000 unless you know for certain that the existing regulator(s) and/or reverse biased protection diode can handle it (you don't want to burn out your regulator when you switch the supply off and the capacitor still has a charge). Axial style capacitors are available in that range, but you may not like the price. They appear to be going for USD ~$10.00-15.00 each in qty of about 50/pcs. There are a number of capacitors in Nichicon's VX series that you could consider. The VX series are general purpose 85c rated parts. TVX1C153MDD 16V 15000uF 22x52mm TVX1A153MDD 10V 15000uF 22x40mm TVX1C223MDD 16V 22000uF 25.4x61mm TVX1A223MDD 10V 22000uF 22x52mm Another option worth considering is using a radial mount part. Just attach it to the board with some silicone (which isn't a bad idea for large capacitors anyway) and extend and insulate one of the leads with some small teflon tubing. The Nichicon VY and VZ are 105c rated, and the VK and VR are 85c rated. UVY1C153MHD 16V 15000uF 18x40mm UVY1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 16x35.5mm UVY1C223MRD 16V 22000uF 22x40mm UVY1A223MHD 10V 22000uF 18x40mm UVZ1C153MRD 16V 15000uF 20x40mm UVZ1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 18x35.5mm UVZ1C223MRD 16V 22000uF 22x50mm UVZ1A223MRD 10V 22000uF 20x40mm UVK1C153MHD 16V 15000uF 18x40mm UVK1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 16x35.5mm UVK1C223MRD 16V 22000uF 22x40mm UVK1A223MHD 10V 22000uF 18x40mm UVR1C153MRD 16V 15000uF 20x40mm UVR1C153MRD6 16V 15000uF 25x30mm UVR1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 18x35.5mm UVR1C223MRD 16V 22000uF 22x50mm UVR1C223MRD6 16V 22000uF 25x40mm UVR1A223MRD 10V 22000uF 20x40mm UVR1A223MRD6 10V 22000uF 25x30mm I might also consider using a Nichicon HE, PW, or PS series assuming I could find a close value (these generally top out at 10,000uF or 15,000uF). These are rated for high ripple and 105c. I use tons of these in all sorts of values in switching power supplies of all sizes and they would probably work just fine in a linear supply too. UPW1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 18x40mm UPS1A153MHD 10V 15000uF 18x40mm http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-vx.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-vy.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-vz.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-vk.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-vr.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-he.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-pw.pdf http://nichicon-us.com/english/products/pdfs/e-ps.pdf From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Sep 3 00:41:45 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 22:41:45 -0700 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> Message-ID: <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> I am both confused and intrigued... I love decayed building. There is something about the history, with failure and personal pain caused as an expensive asset is converted to pile of rubble. Oh wait, I meant Hate. Jim Davis. Adrian Stoness wrote: > u guys would hate me lol > > suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... > > On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Truth be told, I'd also love to find one. I've seen them come up for sale >> on the Fair Radio Sales website every so often, but they are stateside and >> as such shipping would be an issue. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 2012-09-02, at 11:05 AM, Dareck Gorecki >> wrote: >> >>> Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you >> could >>> recommend someone here in Canada to speak with. Its a very peculiar >>> interest and came across your thread. Any direction is of interest. >> Thanks. >> From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Sep 2 19:12:25 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 19:12:25 -0500 Subject: COSMAC ROM file Message-ID: <5043F5E9.8010104@comcast.net> Hi everyone, Does anyone have the ROM file for the COSMAC (boots into basic OS with ability to load/write to tape, etc). Which model PROM was used with the original COSMAC? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 3 01:42:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:42:21 -0600 Subject: 6809 vs 6809E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5044514D.30303@brouhaha.com> On 09/02/2012 10:37 PM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > Does anyone know if Motorola ever made 6809s that could function > either as 6809 or 6809E depending on some external signal, or perhaps > depending on how they were bonded out? I don't think so. They used different mask sets for the 6809 and 6809E. Possibly only the metal mask differed, but I haven't verified that. For the 6809, I've seen masks P6F, T5A, CW3, and C65P. For the 6809E, I've seen masks T6R and EN6, but I'm pretty sure there is one earlier and one later one. The one oddball I've seen was marked MC6809ELDS, with an MB2 mask and 8417 date code. I've never found out what the deal is with the "LDS" suffix, or the oddball mask code. > But after numerous double checks, the chips definitely say > MC68B09E/00TA6/HEQB0014. [...] Did I > end up getting a couple of chips that were mismarked? Seems likely that it's mismarked. Is the part in a plastic DIP? Normally all "E" parts would have a second letter for the package, so it's possible that this was a non-E part where the mismarking error was to use "E" as a package code instead of "P" or "L". On the other hand, I haven't seen a TA6 mask code before. Based on the date codes, it could be that the TA6 mask set for the "E" part might correspond to the C65P mask set for the non-"E". > Is there a way to make them behave as 6809Es? Doubtful. Eric From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 3 01:41:26 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 23:41:26 -0700 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> Message-ID: <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> On 9/2/2012 10:41 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > I am both confused and intrigued... > I love decayed building. There is something about the history, with > failure and personal pain caused as an expensive asset is converted to > pile of rubble. > Oh wait, I meant Hate. > Jim Davis. > > Adrian Stoness wrote: >> u guys would hate me lol >> >> suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... I had a lot of the antiques we had concealed on my family's farm "found" by people and carried off because the houses were abandoned. I consider it theft, and I would not be as charitable as the police if I could catch those who carry stuff of like that. We had possession of a lot of valuable stuff that probably are now on ebay or on some stupid picker show because some moron picked them up off our farm and said they were hunting around legally. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Sep 3 01:49:48 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2012 23:49:48 -0700 Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> References: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5044530C.6040108@gorge.net> Hi Josh, I'm having a real problem. A few months ago you asked about my 6205 / 6210 tek workstation components. I have about 20 boards CPU, IO serial/scsi/disk/parallel , graphics engines, frame buffers, and a multibus converter with disk controller three chassis, an extra backplane, diagnostic card ( fits on the IOP processor) 3 power supplies and about 100 lbs of manuals plus the schematics and service manual for the IOP/ I/O processor. My problem is this, I 'm between jobs, Difficult to make it. The chip collector people will pay, A lot. I sold all my spare chips last month to make my mortgage. All the boards have engineering sample parts and are quite valuable. To them. Software will be really hard to find,. I might have a tape that has the IOP bootstrap code, but nothing is sure. With the diagnostic card and the schematics, you might be able to get the thing running. Back to the "problem", I can get $1500 for just the chips I can pull from the boards, I hate junking something so rare, but times are tough Are you interested? Thanks, Jim. Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit > machine I picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at > 16,000uF 15V, axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) > match in an Axial form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find > snap-in or screw-in types but those are going to be clumsy to > retro-fit given the space it has to occupy. (plus they're pretty > expensive.) > > How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it > compromises the original design? > > Thanks, > Josh > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 01:59:40 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2012 23:59:40 -0700 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> Message-ID: >> suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... >> >> On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >>> Truth be told, I'd also love to find one. I've seen them come up for sale >>> on the Fair Radio Sales website every so often, but they are stateside >>> and >>> as such shipping would be an issue. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 2012-09-02, at 11:05 AM, Dareck Gorecki >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you That is a good suggestion. I don't know Ontario, Canada but look at OLD industrial facilities that have recently failed, like paper mills, sawmills, other industrial facilities from the 1960s / 70s. They often used teletypes for years and then when pulled out of service just put them in storage as they usually had plenty of space. It is worth asking... Also find out who scraps those kind of facilities and ask there..... Your local ham radio club.....may be a good source. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 3 02:03:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 03:03:19 -0400 Subject: Vendor stuff was crummy - Re: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> <5043D970.4030303@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50445637.6060903@neurotica.com> On 09/02/2012 06:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent >> technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, >> that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) >> with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing >> "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the >> 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so >> you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking >> to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few >> months. > > Tell the kids these days - they won't believe yer. Yeah, I'm not too worried about it. I'm the guy who gets paid to clean up the messes that those kids make, so I laugh all the way to the bank. > Seriously: the great Reddit horde has no idea how bad things were before > GNU shook it up. It was hard to dream in 1985 that gcc would supplant > just about every vendor compiler, and when RMS said he hoped this would > happen, many said he was nuts (we have Usenet archives to prove it). > > But it did eventually happen. :) Yes it did, with very few (and only very specialized) exceptions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 02:20:15 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 02:20:15 -0500 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> Message-ID: http://www.rakowskicartage.com/home << these guys are canadas largest demolition company... they do salvage to so contact them they might be able to find u something. and when i said you guys may hate me i have a asr33 and a telex i found in a building thats falling down in a room that managed to not get trashed by the vandles and water... including a pdp8a and software manuals schematics ect From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Sep 3 02:30:32 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 00:30:32 -0700 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> Strategic materials my ass, The aluminum smelter that employed 500 people and was valued at 500 Mil on the tax roll, produced 500 M a year is being ripped down and sold for scrap. The plants in Troutdale Or and he Dalles are gone. Goldendale's 100 acre site is being reduced to rubble. I don't think there are any smelters left in the USA, Lucky for us all our weapons are plastic. jim. jim s wrote: > > On 9/2/2012 10:41 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >> I am both confused and intrigued... >> I love decayed building. There is something about the history, with >> failure and personal pain caused as an expensive asset is converted >> to pile of rubble. >> Oh wait, I meant Hate. >> Jim Davis. >> >> Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> u guys would hate me lol >>> >>> suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... > I had a lot of the antiques we had concealed on my family's farm > "found" by people and carried off because the houses were abandoned. > I consider it theft, and I would not be as charitable as the police if > I could catch those who carry stuff of like that. We had possession > of a lot of valuable stuff that probably are now on ebay or on some > stupid picker show because some moron picked them up off our farm and > said they were hunting around legally. > > > > From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Sep 3 03:22:28 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 01:22:28 -0700 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> Message-ID: <504468C4.7010803@gorge.net> I don't remember writing that rather caustic diatribe. Or what I was replying to. jimpdavis wrote: > Strategic materials my ass, > The aluminum smelter that employed 500 people and was valued at 500 > Mil on the tax roll, > produced 500 M a year is being ripped down and sold for scrap. > The plants in Troutdale Or and he Dalles are gone. Goldendale's 100 > acre site is being reduced to rubble. > I don't think there are any smelters left in the USA, Lucky for us all > our weapons are plastic. > jim. > > jim s wrote: >> >> On 9/2/2012 10:41 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >>> I am both confused and intrigued... >>> I love decayed building. There is something about the history, with >>> failure and personal pain caused as an expensive asset is converted >>> to pile of rubble. >>> Oh wait, I meant Hate. >>> Jim Davis. >>> >>> Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> u guys would hate me lol >>>> >>>> suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... >> I had a lot of the antiques we had concealed on my family's farm >> "found" by people and carried off because the houses were abandoned. >> I consider it theft, and I would not be as charitable as the police >> if I could catch those who carry stuff of like that. We had >> possession of a lot of valuable stuff that probably are now on ebay >> or on some stupid picker show because some moron picked them up off >> our farm and said they were hunting around legally. >> >> >> >> > > > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 3 04:30:50 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 02:30:50 -0700 Subject: Aluminum Reduction plant vs. Smelting. In-Reply-To: <504468C4.7010803@gorge.net> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> <504468C4.7010803@gorge.net> Message-ID: <504478CA.5000609@jwsss.com> On 9/3/2012 1:22 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > I don't remember writing that rather caustic diatribe. Or what I was > replying to. > jimpdavis wrote: >> Strategic materials my ass, >> The aluminum smelter Are you referring to a bauxite to aluminum reduction plant or just a casting plant? sometimes they plants shut down simply because the bauxite supply nearby plays out, or the power and other costs change for the worse. They operate in a mode also of having to have casting orders in for the output of their operations because they can't really easily turn them off. When they have extra metal they have hot they have to put it somewhere, and what they used to do with it if they had to was cast it into 50 to 100 ton pigs and ship them elsewhere. However when they surrendered the energy that it took to keep it molten, it was a loss. Usually they didn't use that metal once it was cooled. I've visited both a plant in South Carolina, Alumax, and one east of Evansville, In, Alcoa, both which still have good supplies of cheap power and ore. I assume even if they were to have had the situation where they don't have direct orders and are shipping to China, the Chinese and foreign buyers would be taking the metal from plants here, simply because we have fairly cheap power. Indiana is coal, near fairly large open face mines and the one in North Carolina gets about 1/2 of a hydro plant in Georgia. Thought I'd ask as I don't have much idea of how the west coast plants are doing. It could be that the plants were displaced which sucks for localities, but hopefully it is still cheaper to process the ore here and have some jobs, rather than shipping raw materials only and getting zippo for loosing our natural resources. I guess the Chinese are waking up about rare earths now and have been on to what they have there. I know the non US members of the list probably have different views, and am aware of all of the resource export that goes on, especially in Africa. I have not seen any quantitative comparison of how iron in the steel has changed, but there are a lot of mini-mills which have replaced a lot of the original plant complexes which went ore->steel, but I don't know that we need them with all the recycling. Also minimills near your location are cheaper than central plants shipping material. This is a bit away from computers, but not so much if you also look at how things are moving around these days with IC and hardware production. We are well into the 10 year old rule covering a lot of equipment which is highly integrated, and not something you get that has general purpose parts. I'm not even sure where we are going with things in the last 10 years all starting to either be small equipment, and larger systems being destroyed by the owners due to IP concerns and other reasons. as things have evolved all manner of things are now pretty caught up being commodities and subject to being moved around the world. jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Sep 3 06:51:21 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:51:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: <5042DC56.8010404@bitsavers.org> References: <5042DC56.8010404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > It is probably some variant of the 68705 microcontroller. Just last weak, I found an SC80251P as the keyboard controller on the keyboard PCB of a Perkin Elmer 550 terminal. Maybe it's similar to the 80951. Christian PS: Does someone have the maintenance manual/schematics of the PE 550? From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 07:37:56 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 08:37:56 -0400 Subject: Ideal storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > whats a good dehumidfyer the basement walls at my mothers allways sweat in > the summer and is causing mold atm as a result gotta rip out all the > insulation... can get down to -40 in the winter here.... > I bought a slickdeal from Wal-mart, it was supposed to be a GE 60-pint dehumidifier for $120 but they ended up giving me a Haier. I did some research and it turns out the Haier unit was better reviewed and roughly the same price as the GE, so I kept it. Either way, both were better than the 20-year old unit they replaced, which was on it's last legs. If there is that much humidity, however, something is wrong with your mother's house. I'm guessing there are leaky windows that let in too much outside air. Warm, humid air from the outside gets in, hits the cold basement walls and condenses. You could replace the windows, or put plastic over them to decrease the amount of outside air getting in. It could also be a problem with drainage. Make sure the rain gutters are clear, and the downspouts end at least 3-5' away from the house. If not, just buy extenders to get the rainwater away from the foundation. I think I listen to too many home handyman shows :) From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Sep 3 07:56:52 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 08:56:52 -0400 Subject: 6809 vs 6809E In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5044A914.40103@verizon.net> On 09/03/2012 12:37 AM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > Does anyone know if Motorola ever made 6809s that could function > either as 6809 or 6809E depending on some external signal, or perhaps > depending on how they were bonded out? > > The reason I ask is that I've been playing with an SBC designed around > a 6809E. While working on writing the monitor on the first prototype, > it died with what looked like a bad CPU. So I ordered a replacement, > and while I was at it, ordered the parts to populate another board. > Both the board with the replacement CPU and the other freshly > populated board behaved the same way. After a little digging it > appeared that the E and Q clock signals that should be externally > driven for a 6809E were being driven by the CPU like for a 6809. I > took a chance and rewired it like a 6809 and sure enough it's working > now. But after numerous double checks, the chips definitely say > MC68B09E/00TA6/HEQB0014. Has anyone seen anything like this? Did I > end up getting a couple of chips that were mismarked? Is there a way > to make them behave as 6809Es? > > Thanks in advance, > BLS In a word, NO. Most cases the solution is either the right part of supply the clock externally and create the E signal. Allison From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 08:28:02 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:28:02 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 20:29, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The Z88 has proprietary carts using battery-backed RAM or EEPROM. >> >> There are carts holding a whopping 1MB of RAM now, and a gig of Flash, >> >> I think, but there is no way to interchange them with conventional >> >> media readers. >> > >> > Hmmm. If somebody has made more omdern cartridgs for this machien (the >> > ones I used were something liek 32K), thew interface to the Z88 must be >> > known. In which case there is some way of making a device to read them. >> > No I am not offering to seriously look into this, I have quite enough >> > machiens ot work on that I am ratheer more interested in. >> >> They're just bigger versions of the same old design: > > Sure, but you misunderstood me. AFAIK the original cartridges were not > jsut a signle stnadard IC, and there is no single, stanmdard. IC with > more cpaactiy that you cna just plug in. Ot make a cartridge you have to > desgin some logic to interface a memory device to the Z88. And to design > that logic you have to understnad the interface between the cartridge and > the rest of the Z88. > > I have no idea how easy it is to find this information, but it would > appear if you know it, it is possible to make other thigns that > interface to the cartridges (origianl or modern). In aprticular, say, a > USB-interfaced reader/writer. > > [...] > [Amstrad PCMCIA card] > >> > Again, that surely depends on wht level of access you have to the PCMCIA >> > interfce on whatever other machine you plug the card into. If you can >> > read raw bytes from the card, then presumably there is a way to make >> > sense of the Amstrad's card. >> >> *WAY* too much trouble. The idea was something quicker, easier and >> less work than RS232 file transfer. > > Surely it depends on how often you haev to do it. It's way too much work > if you only ever have to transfer data once. It nay be worth doing if you > need to do it time and again. It takes considerable time to set it up the > first tiem, after that it's very easy. > >> > Perhaps if you could do it, you'd find you >> > wanted to do it :-) >> >> Hey! Hold it right there. I /can/ do it. I don't /want/ to, but I am >> perfectly able, same as I know enough woodwork to build a bookcase - >> but I don't like doing woodwork, so I'd rather go to IKEA and spent >> ?20 and get one that I can assemble in a few minutes. > > Sure. Bu to stick wit hthe bookcase example, you know enough about > woodwork that if Ikea don't ahve soemthign that will suit your needs, you > could make it from scratch. Or you could modify an Ikea bookcase to suit > your needs (been there, done that...) > > To get back ot classic computing and making up cables. I have the tools > and probalby the skill to make a connector. I could turn the pins from > metal rod, drill the insualtor using the vertical side lto give X_Y > positioningm, mill the hosuing gto ma metal block (wasteful, but I don't > have a usitable press to firm it from a metal sheet) and so on. But I am > not going to do that for a DB25 plug. I will got to any one of a number > of suppliers and buy one. As will jsut about anyone elre here. > > But if I need a strange connector that's no longer made -- say the large > 9-pin plug used on old Creed teleprinters -- then I would make it myself. > It would be worth spending the tiem to get the machine running again. > > SImialrly, I am not going to make M3 screws from scratch, I can buy a bag > of 100 for a few pounds. But when I needed M3*0.6mm screws -- the old > French ones -- to fix a telephone, of course I made them. There was no > other way. > > I don't much like programming. But I know enough C to write simple > utilities when I have to. I'd rather not, but given the choice between > speind in evening writing a little code and having a non-working machine, > I'll do the former. > >> >> I did it in the 1980s because people paid me to, but as I said, I find >> it a pain. > > OK, most of us work with classic computers as a hobby, and by defintion a > hobby is soemthing you enjoy doing. You don't pick a hobby that you hate :-) > > However, in classic computing (as in any hobby?) there are many different > things to do. So you will never want to do (I do not want to write an > emulator for any classic computer I own, I don't want to write a new OS > for such a machine. You don;'t want to attack a PDP11 with a logic > analyser). There are things you do enjoy (I _do_ want to attack a PDP11 > with a logic analyser). That's fine, we each do the bits that interest us. > > However, sometimes oyu have to do soemthing you don't like that much. I > don't like cleaning keycaps. It's boring. But I find I have to do it on > just aobut every classic computer I get. I don't enjoy cleaning up the > remains of a platten roller in an HP9810 (it's the most disgusting goo > you cna imagine, and it gets everyhwhere), but I love that family of > machines so muc htat I will do it. You don't enjoy soldering up cables, > but I would argue sometimes you would ahve to do it to get a mahcine running. > >> >> (My personal high-point was extracting text files from a proprietary >> QUME wordprocessor with unreadable hard-sectored disks. I captured its >> printer output via Procomm or something, then wrote a small QBASIC >> program to de-bidirectionalise every other line and also remove the > > As an aside, you were lucky. Qume had a strange 20-somethign bit parallel > itnerface to soem of their diasywheel printers, the bits sleecte the > chracter on the wheel, how much to move the carriage after pritning it, > etc. Not easy to capture on another machine at all. > > Oh, and Diabloe had a similar interface on some models of the 630 > printer. It wea similar, but certainly not the same... > >> > manual (the real manuaL) and work out just how it is going to behave. And >> > configure things accordingly. >> >> That *is* the pain-in-the-backside element of RS232 for me. > > It's much less of a pain in the backside that finding you have a USB > device but no driver exists for the version of the OS you happen to be > running :-). At least with RS232 I have a fighting chance of being able > ot fix it myself. I would rather sit down with the 'scope and datacomms > analyser than play telephone tag with a so-called technical support > department... > >> >> When you say: >> >> > I suspect that is the reason I have no problems. >> >> The thing is, that /is/ the problem for me. I don't want to do that - >> life is too short. I am not interested, it's not fun, it's a nuisance. > > Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From db at db.net Mon Sep 3 08:36:06 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 08:36:06 -0500 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120903133606.GA47540@night.db.net> On Sun, Sep 02, 2012 at 11:59:40PM -0700, Paxton Hoag wrote: > >> suggest checking abandonded buildings seariously.... > >> ... > > That is a good suggestion. I don't know Ontario, Canada but look at > OLD industrial facilities that have recently failed, like paper mills, > sawmills, other industrial facilities from the 1960s / 70s. They often > used teletypes for years and then when pulled out of service just put > them in storage as they usually had plenty of space. It is worth > asking... > > Also find out who scraps those kind of facilities and ask there..... > > Your local ham radio club.....may be a good source. http://www.rac.ca My own club http://www.oarc.net I'm VA3DB Old Teletypes were handed out by Bell to hams or deaf for years with a signed waiver. You might also try asking around deaf organisations. I suspect a lot of these have ended up in landfills. > > Paxton > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Sep 3 08:43:42 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:43:42 +0200 Subject: Ideal storage conditions In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <5044B40E.20704@update.uu.se> On 09/03/2012 02:37 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > If there is that much humidity, however, something is wrong with your > mother's house. I'm guessing there are leaky windows that let in too > much outside air. Warm, humid air from the outside gets in, hits the > cold basement walls and condenses. You could replace the windows, or > put plastic over them to decrease the amount of outside air getting in. If we set drainage aside, you have to look at more things than your windows. One thing to realize is that concrete is far from water proof. You can have a lot of humidity enter your basement through the floor and walls. What you want to do is reverse the flow. You actually put insulation on the outside of the house (yeah, you will have to dig up your house). Wrapping the basement in plastic is a no-no, it will trap humid air and could increase your problems. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_VOQwStvU71M/SrsbwMDKU2I/AAAAAAAAAX8/SFoiq0BoyDE/s1600-h/IMG_6870.JPG Cheers, Pontus. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon Sep 3 08:44:39 2012 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:44:39 -0400 Subject: Teletype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:05 AM 02/09/2012, you wrote: >Hello. I'm looking for a teletype in ontario and was wondering if you could >recommend someone here in Canada to speak with. Its a very peculiar >interest and came across your thread. Any direction is of interest. Thanks. If you find two, please let me know. I am also looking for one. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 08:59:40 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:59:40 +0100 Subject: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <201209022205.SAA11486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> <201209022205.SAA11486@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 23:05, Mouse wrote: >> First and foremost, X is a protocol, not a piece of software. The >> *reference implementation* of that protocol, and that's ALL it is, is >> available for free, and it compiles and runs on many different >> platforms, notably Sun and DEC workstations. > > I think it's a sample implementation, not a reference implementation. > It certainly used to be. (This is an important difference. With a > reference implementation, the implementation _is_ the spec, by > definition. With a sample implementation, the spec is something else.) > >> Eventually, most of the free UNIX implementations started to narrow >> their focus to x86, even the still-very-cross-platform ones like >> NetBSD. They switched most of their ports over to XFree86 some time >> ago, when it became flexible enough to support other hardware, and >> that's where most of the development was focused. This wasn't all >> that long ago. > > This brought its own forms of madness, like X servers that do their own > bus enumeration, even in cases like NetBSD/sparc where there is > absolutely no excuse for it...meaning, eg, that they have to run as > root even when the user starting them owns the framebuffer, keyboard, > and mouse devices. I must admit, I thought that was standard. But my real-Unix experience is minimal. Basically I am a Linux guy who has also dabbled a bit with AIX and SunOS/Solaris, who happened to start out on Xenix. > There's a reason I use the X11R6.4 sample server on machines where I'm > not saddled with peecee-style video-card hell. > > And then Xorg came along to muddy the waters further.... Is this un-disentagleable? Because that's the precise bit I sought clarification on. >>> You pretty much only get the GNU userland on Linux and you pretty >>> much only get Linux underneath the GNU userland. > > To the extent that this is true (and, as Dave points out, "the GNU > userland" is not an indivisible blob of everything), it's only beacuse > that's what people care to bother doing. A Linux friend of mine tells > me there is, or at least was, a Linux distro that had an almost > entirely BSD userland on top of the Linux kernel - about as much GNU > code in userland as NetBSD, say, has. I know of 2: http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ (Works, not very well, is current) http://www.debian.org/ports/netbsd/ (Abandoned prototype) There's also Gentoo/BSD but that uses the BSD userland & just brings Gentoo package management & build system to BSD. Given that Gentoo's "portage" was inspired by BSD "ports", this seems oddly circular; if Portage is so good, why not just merge or update Ports with it or its ideas or implementation? (I have played with both Ports and Portage. I much prefer Apt.) > I've also heard of Linux > userlands[%] running under BSD kernels.) > > [%] To the extent that such a thing exists - and, no, I do not mean > "GNU userlands". I mean, approximately, "a userland a Linux distro > might/could/does come with", which typically includes a good deal > of non-GNU code. Understood, and an interesting idea. Not encountered this. Any references much welcomed! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 08:49:04 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 14:49:04 +0100 Subject: X and GNU software, was Re: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> References: <50426C6E.8050008@bitsavers.org> <5042B8DF.5080806@vaxen.net> <5043662D.7080803@vaxen.net> <5043D047.3020702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2 September 2012 22:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/02/2012 11:00 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> X.org, nee XFree86, never was a Linux thing, any more than GNU. Like the >>> GNU environment, it started as a cross-platform Free implementation of >>> commercial unix tools. As far as I know or can remember, neither X.org or >>> XFree86 ever existed as a Linux-only implementation. >> >> I'll take your word. I am fairly ignorant of the BSD world - the only >> BSD I've ever managed to install and get to boot up to a GUI was >> PC-BSD, which is kinda cheating. >> >> I was under the impression that for many years, in the XFree86 era, >> the BSDs maintained their own X.11 servers, and Solaris still does, >> the last time I looked - it offers the Sun X server for Sun graphics >> hardware and X.org for non-Sun kit. >> >> I have no experience with AIX on x86, only on RIOS/ROMP, but AFAIAA, >> all the commercial Unices still maintain their own X servers, or did >> until they died. >> >> Was XFree86 /never/ just a Linux-on-x86 project? > > X wasn't a "BSD world" thing either. It wasn't a "free UNIX" thing at > all. > > First and foremost, X is a protocol, not a piece of software. The > *reference implementation* of that protocol, and that's ALL it is, is > available for free, and it compiles and runs on many different > platforms, notably Sun and DEC workstations. Yes, I'm aware of that much. I wasn't talking about the notional nonexistent bit of software that is "X-windows" (yes, I did that deliberately), but about what used to be XFree86 and is now X.org. > XFree86 came along to support more of the whiz-bang graphics hardware > in the PC world, all of which tended to be very inconsistent and fiddly > even back then. Who in their right mind changes friggin' sync rates in > order to switch in and out of graphics mode? PC video cards, that's > who. Madness. Well, PC video cards are, generally, at root, VGA cards, which means enhanced & extended EGA cards, which means enhanced & extended CGA cards, right? And that implies a base video mode of 640?something at 50 or 60Hz, I think. CGA = 640?200, EGA = 640?350, VGA = 640?480. All the rest is layers of enhancement over the top. > Anyway, XFree86 was put together to address all that > crap, primarily under Linux. Well, that's one way of looking at it, but OK, fair enough. > Eventually, most of the free UNIX implementations started to narrow > their focus to x86, even the still-very-cross-platform ones like NetBSD. > They switched most of their ports over to XFree86 some time ago, when > it became flexible enough to support other hardware, and that's where > most of the development was focused. This wasn't all that long ago. > > You'll see these two implementations of the X protocol referred to as > "MIT X11" and "XFree". It's important to note that "XFree" is no more > "free" than MIT's freely-available X server; that's just what they chose > to name it. OK, understood. But underneath that still means 2 different binary programs, 2 different packages of umpteen drivers, libraries and bits of code, right? One implemented by $Programmer at $Project at $Time and another which is derived from the XFree86 codebase... yes? That's what I was getting at. I think we may be looking at the same thing from 2 radically different POVs, but I am not sure. >> The various incarnations of the HURD are very minority offerings >> indeed and most of the other Unix-like kernels have their own >> userland. You pretty much only get the GNU userland on Linux and you >> pretty much only get Linux underneath the GNU userland. > > Well not quite. Most commercial UNIX sysadmins, myself included, had > their first introduction to GNU software as improved replacements for > vendor-supplied utilities. This started happening LONG before there > were any viable (or even not-so-viable!) free UNIX implementations. > > TO THIS DAY the first thing I do on a brand-new Solaris system is > replace a few Oracle-supplied utilities like "tar" with their GNU > replacements, to bring their functionality into this decade. > > Most highly technical organizations (or organizations with competent > technical staffs) had their own "standard OS load" for a given platform, > that consisted of a commercial vendor-supplied UNIX (SunOS, Ultrix, etc) > with all the bad stuff fixed. Fixing stuff usually meant replacing > "tar", "awk", etc with stuff that had actually progressed since the > 1970s...and it was almost always GNU. Further, you had source code, so > you could fix any bugs you ran into without having to deal with talking > to incompetent vendor employees and MAYBE getting a bug fix in a few months. Interesting. I did not know this. Thanks! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 09:53:11 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 16:53:11 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?sortof=2DOT=3A_bare_metal_R=CF=80?= Message-ID: The R? has gotten a mixed reception 'round here, but here is something interesting: a tutorial of programming the thing (which makes this sort-of kinda on-topic) in bare-metal Assembly; including talking to the graphics chip as a plain bitmapped framebuffer and input from the USB port (the latter using a library, I think). I haven't received mine yet, but I really want to try that out... http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/freshers/raspberrypi/tutorials/os/ -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:27:47 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 11:27:47 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_sortof=2DOT=3A_bare_metal_R=CF=80?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > The R? has gotten a mixed reception 'round here, but here is something > interesting: a tutorial of programming the thing (which makes this > sort-of kinda on-topic) in bare-metal Assembly; including talking to > the graphics chip as a plain bitmapped framebuffer and input from the > USB port (the latter using a library, I think). > > I haven't received mine yet, but I really want to try that out... Very cool, and perfect timing. I'm about to go out and pick up a fresh SD card for the R-Pi that arrived over the weekend. > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/freshers/raspberrypi/tutorials/os/ Grabbing the tarball now... Thanks! -ethan From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:53:35 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 10:53:35 -0500 Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> References: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5044d26e.8a5b320a.5cf1.37a3@mx.google.com> At 06:24 PM 9/2/2012, you wrote: >Hi all -- > >Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply >in that Microkit machine I picked up last >week; the main filter capacitor is rated at >16,000uF 15V, axial. So far in my searches an >exact (or even close) match in an Axial >form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find >snap-in or screw-in types but those are going to >be clumsy to retro-fit given the space it has to >occupy. (plus they're pretty expensive.) > >How far off the original capacitance value can I >stray before it compromises the original design? Caps THAT big are probably filter caps, yes? In that case, use anything with MORE capacitance and the same or somewhat higher voltage-- too much higher and it won't fit on the board. 900 . "Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now, blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!" -- Tommy Smothers NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 3 12:08:50 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:08:50 -0400 Subject: 6809 vs 6809E In-Reply-To: <5044514D.30303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3be06ab8b507fca39b5d0d859b332733@bellsouth.net> > For the 6809, I've seen masks P6F, T5A, CW3, and C65P. > > For the 6809E, I've seen masks T6R and EN6, but I'm pretty sure there is > one earlier and one later one. > ... > Seems likely that it's mismarked. Is the part in a plastic DIP? > Normally all "E" parts would have a second letter for the package, so > it's possible that this was a non-E part where the mismarking error was > to use "E" as a package code instead of "P" or "L". > > On the other hand, I haven't seen a TA6 mask code before. Based on the > date codes, it could be that the TA6 mask set for the "E" part might > correspond to the C65P mask set for the non-"E". I figured mismarking was the most like scenario. But just to make things even a little more confusing, the 68B09E that I had been using before it gave up the ghost, and that was quite happy with externally generated E and Q, has a mask code of C65P. It's date code is QETD0148. All 3 are plastic and none have a suffix beyond the E. The good news is that the only reason I had designed the boards to use the E parts was that they were easier to get. So pulling the 74LS76 and adding a few patch wires is easy enough to get them working. It makes me think if I do another turn of the board, I should add some jumpers to let one use either. BLS From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Sep 3 12:26:31 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:26:31 -0400 Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5044d26e.8a5b320a.5cf1.37a3@mx.google.com> References: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> <5044d26e.8a5b320a.5cf1.37a3@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5044E847.4050401@verizon.net> On 09/03/2012 11:53 AM, Tom wrote: > At 06:24 PM 9/2/2012, you wrote: >> Hi all -- >> >> Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit >> machine I picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at >> 16,000uF 15V, axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) >> match in an Axial form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find >> snap-in or screw-in types but those are going to be clumsy to >> retro-fit given the space it has to occupy. (plus they're pretty >> expensive.) >> >> How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it >> compromises the original design? > > Caps THAT big are probably filter caps, yes? In that case, use > anything with MORE capacitance and the same or somewhat higher > voltage-- too much higher and it won't fit on the board. > Caps in that range should not be that costly. Axial leads may be scarce but look harder. Generally I find if one vendor does not have what I want look at another. Allied, Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, Advent, MPJA.com and oh so many more. Values for filter caps are flexible. the typical cap like that has a -20 +80% tolerence. So anything from 12,000uf and up is fine and not less than 15V but not higher than 25V That will fit in the occupied space is fine. Yes, that 12,000uF is not a typo! You have a fair amount of latitude in power supplies especially older linear types.. Allison/KB1GMX FN42HH :) > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 13:03:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 19:03:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microkit 8/16 info? In-Reply-To: <5043C5C1.5040203@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 2, 12 01:46:57 pm Message-ID: [+5V supply line] > No, it stays positive. Just a lot of ripple (between 2 and 5V). In which case it's unlikely to have done any damage. > Hopefully it's as simple as replacing the filter capacitor. The power First look at the ripple freqeuncy. Just about all classic cumputers used full wave rectification, so you'd epxrpct it to be twice the mains frequency of the rectifiers are OK. I would be 99% sure the problem was cpaacitor-related. I can't think of another common cuuse for excessive ripple. > supply in this thing looks like it's going to be fun to pull out :). Some machines are easy to work on, some are hard :-(. And soem claim to be easy to repair, but are actually very hard to work on. Those are the ones where swapping modules is trivial, but actually getting a module to be operational outside the machine so you can test it with a 'scope is non-triival. I recall the time I had to trace a logic fault on a DEC Rainbow. Ended up with the PSU running upside-down half off the edge of the bench... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 13:09:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 19:09:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 2, 12 04:24:34 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit machine > I picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at 16,000uF > 15V, axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) match in an > Axial form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find snap-in or > screw-in types but those are going to be clumsy to retro-fit given the > space it has to occupy. (plus they're pretty expensive.) > > How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it > compromises the original design? Quite a long way!. +/-20% is regardsd as close-tolerance :-) Don;t go too low, it'll increase the ripply. I would think that 15 millifarads would be OK< though. Don't go ridiculously high either. but 20 millifarads should be OK. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:58:28 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 11:58:28 -0700 Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5044FDD4.4050201@gmail.com> Thanks to all for the advice. Looks like at least part of my problem is I need to look a little harder, but at least now I know what I can get away with. I'll do a little more searching this evening. Thanks again! Josh From bobvines00 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:39:15 2012 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 15:39:15 -0400 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane Message-ID: In the 01 Sep 2012, cctalk Digest, Vol 109, Issue 1, Topic #2, Brenton Bryant wrote: "Recently I found an incomplete PDP-8/a and need the transformer and backplane to start working on it. If anyone has one or both then please let me know." What type of (incomplete) you PDP-8/A do you have? The power supply is different for the core vs. semiconductor memories and different backplanes used in these machines. There are three different power supplies available, depending on the backplane and the memory. The chassis you have should have a label telling what it is. The PDP-8/A uses the ?76? Power Supply AssembIy which includes: ?9192 Omnibus (10 module slots) G801? Power Supply Module (Semiconductor Memory) Power board Transformer AssembIy Line Set Operator's ????l The PDP-8?100, 8?400, 8?600, & 8?800 use the ?9?00 Chassis AssembIy which includes: ?9194 Omnibus (12 slots) G8016 Power Supply Module (Semiconductor ??????) OR G8018 Power Supply Module (Core ?emor?) Transformer AssembIy Line Set Operator's ????l The PDP-8?420, 8?620, & 8?820 use the ??8-? Expander Chassis AssembIy which includes: ?9195 Omnibus (20 slots) 2 G8018 Power Supply Modules (Core Memory) Transformer AssembIy Line Set Operator's ????l Power Distribution Assembly The above information is from the "PDP8A Minicomputer Handbook 1976-77." (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/MinicomputerHandbook_1976.pdf) Paul Anderson *may* be able to provide what you need -- he had a PDP-8/A chassis available at the end of last year and it *may* have what you need (i.e., power supply & backplane). So, what (incomplete) model PDP-8/A do you have? Thanks, Bob From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 3 15:15:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. > > Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?) > I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Sep 3 15:29:55 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 22:29:55 +0200 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120903222955.735e9cb0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 16:53:11 +0200 Joachim Thiemann wrote: > The R? has gotten a mixed reception 'round here, but here is something > interesting: a tutorial of programming the thing (which makes this > sort-of kinda on-topic) in bare-metal Assembly; If you wane do bare metal ARM hacking there are severl nice ARM eval boards. Have a look at e.g.: https://www.olimex.com/ Especially the OLinuXino. It is designed to run Linux, like the RPi. I am tempted to port NetBSD to it. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:36:18 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 15:36:18 -0500 Subject: Ideal storage conditions In-Reply-To: <5044B40E.20704@update.uu.se> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251E8EF0@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <5044B40E.20704@update.uu.se> Message-ID: not a concreat foundation its made of ruble stone house was built in 1883 and the weeping tile still works quite well had it checked. i flush it out when i flush the hot water tank out witch ur supost to be every year but no one ever seems to this region is nitorious for moisture problems in basements On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 09/03/2012 02:37 PM, Jason McBrien wrote: > >> If there is that much humidity, however, something is wrong with your >> mother's house. I'm guessing there are leaky windows that let in too much >> outside air. Warm, humid air from the outside gets in, hits the cold >> basement walls and condenses. You could replace the windows, or put plastic >> over them to decrease the amount of outside air getting in. >> > > If we set drainage aside, you have to look at more things than your > windows. One thing to realize is that concrete is far from water proof. You > can have a lot of humidity enter your basement through the floor and walls. > What you want to do is reverse the flow. You actually put insulation on the > outside of the house (yeah, you will have to dig up your house). Wrapping > the basement in plastic is a no-no, it will trap humid air and could > increase your problems. > > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_**VOQwStvU71M/SrsbwMDKU2I/** > AAAAAAAAAX8/SFoiq0BoyDE/s1600-**h/IMG_6870.JPG > > Cheers, > Pontus. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 3 15:57:28 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 15:57:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5044E847.4050401@verizon.net> References: <5043EAB2.9080207@gmail.com> <5044d26e.8a5b320a.5cf1.37a3@mx.google.com> <5044E847.4050401@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, allison wrote: > On 09/03/2012 11:53 AM, Tom wrote: >> At 06:24 PM 9/2/2012, you wrote: >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Working on recapping an old (failed) 5V supply in that Microkit machine I >>> picked up last week; the main filter capacitor is rated at 16,000uF 15V, >>> axial. So far in my searches an exact (or even close) match in an Axial >>> form-factor seems to be unobtainium. I can find snap-in or screw-in types >>> but those are going to be clumsy to retro-fit given the space it has to >>> occupy. (plus they're pretty expensive.) >>> >>> How far off the original capacitance value can I stray before it >>> compromises the original design? >> >> Caps THAT big are probably filter caps, yes? In that case, use anything >> with MORE capacitance and the same or somewhat higher voltage-- too much >> higher and it won't fit on the board. >> > > Caps in that range should not be that costly. Axial leads may be scarce > but look harder. Generally I find if one vendor does not have what I > want look at another. > > Allied, Digikey, Mouser, Jameco, Advent, MPJA.com and oh so many more. Axial in that size are very hard to find it seems. The few companies that do make them (Nichicon doesn't even list them on the datasheet, but they are available) charge a lot for them. You can get a radial type for as little as $1.50-$4.00 (for a -good- quality one, no less) if you hunt. > Values for filter caps are flexible. the typical cap like that has a -20 > +80% tolerence. So anything from 12,000uf and up is fine and not less > than 15V but not higher than 25V That will fit in the occupied space is > fine. Yes, that 12,000uF is not a typo! You have a fair amount of > latitude in power supplies especially older linear types.. In this application, if the capacitor is being used on the regulated side of the 5V supply, I'd even consider a 10V capacitor. On the unregulated side, 16V would be the logical choice (25V, maybe, but a 25V would be a no-go for me on the regulated side). If this capacitor is on the regulated side, I would say that they used a 15V part originally due to availability. In some switching regulator circuits, I even see 6.3V capacitors used, although I personally prefer slightly more headroom (10V) in that application. A photo of the power board would certainly help. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 3 16:03:34 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 16:03:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Power supply capacitor tolerances In-Reply-To: <5044FDD4.4050201@gmail.com> References: <5044FDD4.4050201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks to all for the advice. Looks like at least part of my problem is I > need to look a little harder, but at least now I know what I can get away > with. I'll do a little more searching this evening. If you can determine if the capacitor is on the unregulated or regulated side of the supply and have a photo of the board, it would help narrow it down a little more. As I mentioned in another reply, you could go as low as 10V on the regulated side of the supply, but on the unregulated side, 16V would be the logical choice (some 25V parts exist, but 25V rated 15000uF and 22000uF are somewhat uncommon). If you want to stick close to the original 15V 16000uF part, just go with a 16V 15000uF or 22000uF and you should be fine. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Sep 3 16:19:59 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 14:19:59 -0700 Subject: Aluminum Reduction plant vs. Smelting. In-Reply-To: <504478CA.5000609@jwsss.com> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> <504468C4.7010803@gorge.net> <504478CA.5000609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50451EFF.9000906@gorge.net> Hi Jim, The reduction plants / smelters in Vancouver, Longview and Goldendale Wa. and Troutdale and The Dalles Or. were shutdown in the last decade and were demolished Google sits near The Dalles former site. I think a few plants are still operating in the Pacific NW and in BC. We now have excess power in the area from the wind farms. Unfortunately, that power is sporadic. New distribution systems are being constructed to ship the power to the Southwest. From what I have read, sustaining the high desert lifestyle will not be possible without a reliable supply of water. The original source of continuous power is the BPA ( Bonneville Power Administration ), the operators of the hydro-power complex on the Columbia River.and the reason those plants were built. The destroyed plants could now be used to burn off the excess and prevent having idle wind turbines. I worked in the industry for 5 years building process control systems, until Gulf war 1 and the USSR meltdown caused the aluminum market to crash. Massive dumping of metal by the Russians trying to stave off financial disaster in the early 90's, the Southwest population boom and the deregulated power market sealed the industry's fate. It was rumored in the industry the Russians had huge stockpiles of strategic metal reserves buried in Siberia. You are right about shutting down and restarting a plant. It takes about a year to fully restart a smelter. Goldendale went through a restart after shutting down in the late 80's. The plant had about 600 reduction cells and consumed enough power to run a small city. To keep this on topic, The reduction process control system was originally built with a Nova mini driven analog data multiplexer fed into a Modcomp for process control. We later updated the process control to a later model Modcomp. A Data General Eclipse was used for production reporting. The lab used a PDP-8 based X-ray analyzer and the carbon plant was based on Mot 6800 boxes and Analog Devices uMac 5000 process control systems. I was pretty disappointed the last time I visited in 95 and discovered the eclipse had been dumped into the tip and replaced with PC clones. About your comment on rare earths, We will be screwed if we get into a pissing match with the Chinese. Around here, Most of the timberland and mining claims are owned by foreign corporations, Sold by the feds for token payments. When US corps owned the land, It was generally open. Now gates block all access. Jim. jim s wrote: > > On 9/3/2012 1:22 AM, jimpdavis wrote: >> I don't remember writing that rather caustic diatribe. Or what I was >> replying to. >> jimpdavis wrote: >>> Strategic materials my ass, >>> The aluminum smelter > Are you referring to a bauxite to aluminum reduction plant or just a > casting plant? sometimes they plants shut down simply because the > bauxite supply nearby plays out, or the power and other costs change > for the worse. > > They operate in a mode also of having to have casting orders in for > the output of their operations because they can't really easily turn > them off. When they have extra metal they have hot they have to put > it somewhere, and what they used to do with it if they had to was cast > it into 50 to 100 ton pigs and ship them elsewhere. However when they > surrendered the energy that it took to keep it molten, it was a loss. > Usually they didn't use that metal once it was cooled. > > I've visited both a plant in South Carolina, Alumax, and one east of > Evansville, In, Alcoa, both which still have good supplies of cheap > power and ore. > > I assume even if they were to have had the situation where they don't > have direct orders and are shipping to China, the Chinese and foreign > buyers would be taking the metal from plants here, simply because we > have fairly cheap power. Indiana is coal, near fairly large open face > mines and the one in North Carolina gets about 1/2 of a hydro plant in > Georgia. > > Thought I'd ask as I don't have much idea of how the west coast plants > are doing. > > It could be that the plants were displaced which sucks for localities, > but hopefully it is still cheaper to process the ore here and have > some jobs, rather than shipping raw materials only and getting zippo > for loosing our natural resources. > > I guess the Chinese are waking up about rare earths now and have been > on to what they have there. I know the non US members of the list > probably have different views, and am aware of all of the resource > export that goes on, especially in Africa. > > I have not seen any quantitative comparison of how iron in the steel > has changed, but there are a lot of mini-mills which have replaced a > lot of the original plant complexes which went ore->steel, but I don't > know that we need them with all the recycling. Also minimills near > your location are cheaper than central plants shipping material. > > This is a bit away from computers, but not so much if you also look at > how things are moving around these days with IC and hardware production. > > We are well into the 10 year old rule covering a lot of equipment > which is highly integrated, and not something you get that has general > purpose parts. I'm not even sure where we are going with things in > the last 10 years all starting to either be small equipment, and > larger systems being destroyed by the owners due to IP concerns and > other reasons. > > as things have evolved all manner of things are now pretty caught up > being commodities and subject to being moved around the world. > jim > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:54:04 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 16:54:04 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: my drawings don't cover the 8a transformer and mine cover the 8a400 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 3 17:13:18 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:13:18 -0700 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <20120903222955.735e9cb0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120903222955.735e9cb0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50452B7E.2000408@bitsavers.org> On 9/3/12 1:29 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 16:53:11 +0200 > Joachim Thiemann wrote: > >> The R? has gotten a mixed reception 'round here All of my posts have been disappearing, we'll see if this one gets through. The problem I see with the Cambridge examples is students don't LEARN anything about what they're programming on. They're given a bunch of magic recipes and don't learn what they're for. What you end up with is what you could have done with 10 lines of Z80 assembly talking to a terminal through a UART, but in the example you have to make your own terminal, talking to a big blob of USB stack and graphics coprocessor glue. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 3 17:19:58 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:19:58 -0700 Subject: Aluminum Reduction plant vs. Smelting. In-Reply-To: <50451EFF.9000906@gorge.net> References: <41791B86-EB44-443A-B64D-84F70812BCA6@me.com> <50444319.3020108@gorge.net> <50445116.6010405@jwsss.com> <50445C98.3080000@gorge.net> <504468C4.7010803@gorge.net> <504478CA.5000609@jwsss.com> <50451EFF.9000906@gorge.net> Message-ID: <50452D0E.10406@jwsss.com> On 9/3/2012 2:19 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > > To keep this on topic, The reduction process control system was > originally built with a Nova mini driven analog data multiplexer > fed into a Modcomp for process control. We later updated the process > control to a later model Modcomp. > A Data General Eclipse was used for production reporting. The lab used > a PDP-8 based X-ray analyzer and > the carbon plant was based on Mot 6800 boxes and Analog Devices uMac > 5000 process control systems. > I was pretty disappointed the last time I visited in 95 and discovered > the eclipse had been dumped into the tip > and replaced with PC clones. I went to the Alumax site to service a Microdata Reality they bought and installed. They had hired an engineering firm to make adapters to convert sensor output to character form and login to the Reality and jam the data into data files. It was then analyzed and formatted into reports about the state and trends of possible monitor pollutants, wildlife and a huge amount of environmental monitors. The logins to the Reality system for the data retrieval were open to the Alumax people and to the EPA as well as some other interested parties, and reports were published, may still be of the trends from before the site was converted. They said the site would improve environmentally, and as it was converted to just one area for the reduction plant, and a large are was made back into a nature preserve it looked like they had accomplished that. I suspect they may still use pick or perhaps there are other data collection systems in use. It was pretty advanced to do what they did for 1979 though. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 18:20:55 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 00:20:55 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 September 2012 21:15, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> >>> Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. >> >> >> Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?) > > I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a > single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE QUTOTED > EMAIL. *coughs* Hey, I have been liamproven at aol.com for sixteen years now and the last time I checked it's still September. ;?) Seriously, though, there was no one part of what Tony said that I could trim out and say "I agree" without implying that I didn't agree to the rest, and life is too short to time all the text of mine that /he/ quoted, leaving only his, and still just append a line. Anyway, grown-up email clients collapse quoted text that you've seen. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 3 19:27:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 3 September 2012 21:15, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?) >> >> I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a >> single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE QUTOTED >> EMAIL. *coughs* > > Hey, I have been liamproven at aol.com for sixteen years now and the last > time I checked it's still September. ;?) > I guess it could have been worse. Me too! :) > Seriously, though, there was no one part of what Tony said that I > could trim out and say "I agree" without implying that I didn't agree > to the rest, and life is too short to time all the text of mine that > /he/ quoted, leaving only his, and still just append a line. > ^K is your friend. :) (or dd if you run that way) *laughs* > Anyway, grown-up email clients collapse quoted text that you've seen. ;?) > Alpine forever! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From pinball at telus.net Mon Sep 3 11:27:29 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 09:27:29 -0700 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Every so often, since the beginning of the "interweb," I've wasted a few > hours scouring the vast stores of information for a glimmer of data on the > Motorola SC80951S chip. All I find are the part pimps peddling them for > sums which they'll only disclose if you file a formal RFQ. No datasheets > or even a simple description of the part's function can be found anywhere. > > I amuse myself by wondering if I had somehow acquired some super secret > component that played a crucial part in the downfall of the Eastern Bloc. > Eventually reality kicks in and I realize it wouldn't have a Motorola logo > on it if that was the case. So here I am, before what probably amounts to > the most comprehensive brain trust in vintage compute technology, to ask if > any of you folks know what this thing is. Here is a link to a photograph: > > http://www.aximel.com/files/SC80951S.jpg > > Though I could not focus close enough to get a picture of the wafer, it > appears to have some regions that suggest an EPROM memory array, some > smaller regions that might be SRAM, and various other complicated looking > shapes that may just be a CPU of some sort. > > I'm mostly interested in learning what it is. But if you can find me a > data sheet I'll gladly share half a dozen of them with you. :-) > > Closest item I've found to that part number is SC80909L which appears to be a Motorola multifunction device like a transistor array used in Tektronics equipment. Not the same at all I know, but perhaps of some use. Try getting a close look through the window - you will be able to tell if it is a CPU or EPROM by the layout, or if you can get a picture and post it someone here may be able to tell what you've got. This could be a 68705P3 (28 pin), you could do some diode checks against the pinout and compare with an EPROM to see what you get. Data lines, Address Lines, and Select lines should be similar between EPROMs, but if it is a 68705P3 then it will read quite differently... How many of these do you have? Hardly seems worth the bother for one or two, 100 would be different... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 4 02:12:49 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 01:12:49 -0600 Subject: 6809 vs 6809E In-Reply-To: <5044514D.30303@brouhaha.com> References: <5044514D.30303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5045A9F1.30701@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The one oddball I've seen was marked MC6809ELDS, with an MB2 mask and > 8417 date code. I've never found out what the deal is with the "LDS" > suffix, or the oddball mask code. Checking an older datasheet reveals that in this case "L" is the usual ceramic package designation, "D" is level 2 reliability screening, which is a 168 hour burn-in at 125C, and "S" is level 1 screening, which is 10 temp cycles from -25C to 150C, and a high-temp test at max Tamb. "D" and "S" may be used separately, or combined. The "S" in this position is should not be confused with an "S" package code, which is Cerdip. Someone sent me a link to a photo of a plastic "DS" suffix part. It's still odd that this particular part had an MB2 mask with 8417 datecode. I haven't ever seen the MB2 mask on another 6809E, and Motorola was using the EN6 mask from at least 8232 through 8633, so it is strange that they would have made the same part with a different mask set in the middle of that date range. Eric From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Sep 4 04:09:39 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:09:39 +0100 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> References: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> Message-ID: <2F82BEE864524C78B93CDC4FAFB26A3A@MailBox> Alternates ?MOT SC80951S ?MOTO SC80951S ?SSI SC80951S ?MOTOROLLA SC80951S ?SES SC80951S ?SCA SC80951S ?TRAN SC80951S ?SOL SC80951S ?MOTORLA SC80951S ?NAE SC80951S ?MOTOROL SC80951S ?MOTORO SC80951S ?SABRITEC SC80951S ?Motorola Semiconductor SC80951S ?VARI SC80951S ?NJS SC80951S ?SSD SC80951S ?SSC SC80951S ?MOTOROLA INC SC80951S ?SML SC80951S ?MOT/ON SEMI SC80951S ?SILEC SC80951S ?MOTOROLA TWO WAY SC80951S ?MTO SC80951S ?SOLID STATE DEVICES SC80951S Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: 03 September 2012 17:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Every so often, since the beginning of the "interweb," I've wasted a few > hours scouring the vast stores of information for a glimmer of data on the > Motorola SC80951S chip. All I find are the part pimps peddling them for > sums which they'll only disclose if you file a formal RFQ. No datasheets > or even a simple description of the part's function can be found anywhere. > > I amuse myself by wondering if I had somehow acquired some super secret > component that played a crucial part in the downfall of the Eastern Bloc. > Eventually reality kicks in and I realize it wouldn't have a Motorola logo > on it if that was the case. So here I am, before what probably amounts to > the most comprehensive brain trust in vintage compute technology, to ask if > any of you folks know what this thing is. Here is a link to a photograph: > > http://www.aximel.com/files/SC80951S.jpg > > Though I could not focus close enough to get a picture of the wafer, it > appears to have some regions that suggest an EPROM memory array, some > smaller regions that might be SRAM, and various other complicated looking > shapes that may just be a CPU of some sort. > > I'm mostly interested in learning what it is. But if you can find me a > data sheet I'll gladly share half a dozen of them with you. :-) > > Closest item I've found to that part number is SC80909L which appears to be a Motorola multifunction device like a transistor array used in Tektronics equipment. Not the same at all I know, but perhaps of some use. Try getting a close look through the window - you will be able to tell if it is a CPU or EPROM by the layout, or if you can get a picture and post it someone here may be able to tell what you've got. This could be a 68705P3 (28 pin), you could do some diode checks against the pinout and compare with an EPROM to see what you get. Data lines, Address Lines, and Select lines should be similar between EPROMs, but if it is a 68705P3 then it will read quite differently... How many of these do you have? Hardly seems worth the bother for one or two, 100 would be different... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 04:20:16 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 11:20:16 +0200 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <50452B7E.2000408@bitsavers.org> References: <20120903222955.735e9cb0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50452B7E.2000408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > The problem I see with the Cambridge examples is students don't LEARN > anything > about what they're programming on. They're given a bunch of magic recipes > and > don't learn what they're for. What you end up with is what you > could have done with 10 lines of Z80 assembly talking to a terminal through > a > UART, but in the example you have to make your own terminal, talking to a > big > blob of USB stack and graphics coprocessor glue. > Sorry, I don't see that. I think the article gives a reasonable level of depth, explaining certain things in detail - see for example the pink boxes on the right-hand side, explaining what eg. the assembler instructions do. The article is far more in depth than just "type these magic lines to see stuff". And the fact that the GPU and USB stack are black boxes? For introduction into OS concepts, why is that a problem (at the level that this article is aimed at)? When introducing Z80 assembler, you also look at the Z80 as a magic black box that you give commands to which then does stuff. You don't need to know the internal microarchitecture of a CPU to program it. (Yes, it helps, to the advanced user - but to teach introductory assembly programming?) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Sep 4 04:25:04 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 10:25:04 +0100 Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> References: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> Message-ID: <387C6D957DC74F49A458DFD885186F86@MailBox> 1. Change the S to an M = MC80951S 2. Loose the 9 = MC8051S Yup it?s a version of a Motorola 8051 Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Robertson Sent: 03 September 2012 17:27 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S Amardeep S Chana wrote: > Every so often, since the beginning of the "interweb," I've wasted a few > hours scouring the vast stores of information for a glimmer of data on the > Motorola SC80951S chip. All I find are the part pimps peddling them for > sums which they'll only disclose if you file a formal RFQ. No datasheets > or even a simple description of the part's function can be found anywhere. > > I amuse myself by wondering if I had somehow acquired some super secret > component that played a crucial part in the downfall of the Eastern Bloc. > Eventually reality kicks in and I realize it wouldn't have a Motorola logo > on it if that was the case. So here I am, before what probably amounts to > the most comprehensive brain trust in vintage compute technology, to ask if > any of you folks know what this thing is. Here is a link to a photograph: > > http://www.aximel.com/files/SC80951S.jpg > > Though I could not focus close enough to get a picture of the wafer, it > appears to have some regions that suggest an EPROM memory array, some > smaller regions that might be SRAM, and various other complicated looking > shapes that may just be a CPU of some sort. > > I'm mostly interested in learning what it is. But if you can find me a > data sheet I'll gladly share half a dozen of them with you. :-) > > Closest item I've found to that part number is SC80909L which appears to be a Motorola multifunction device like a transistor array used in Tektronics equipment. Not the same at all I know, but perhaps of some use. Try getting a close look through the window - you will be able to tell if it is a CPU or EPROM by the layout, or if you can get a picture and post it someone here may be able to tell what you've got. This could be a 68705P3 (28 pin), you could do some diode checks against the pinout and compare with an EPROM to see what you get. Data lines, Address Lines, and Select lines should be similar between EPROMs, but if it is a 68705P3 then it will read quite differently... How many of these do you have? Hardly seems worth the bother for one or two, 100 would be different... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 4 06:26:06 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 13:26:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Mystery Motorola Chip SC80951S In-Reply-To: <387C6D957DC74F49A458DFD885186F86@MailBox> References: <5044DA71.7070501@telus.net> <387C6D957DC74F49A458DFD885186F86@MailBox> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > 1. Change the S to an M = MC80951S > 2. Loose the 9 = MC8051S > > Yup it?s a version of a Motorola 8051 I don't think so. 1. The MCS 8051 came after the SC80251P (the IC I have) 2. AFAIK, Motorola has never built the 8051 Christian From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Sep 4 08:07:26 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 13:07:26 +0000 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Joachim writes: >> The R? has gotten a mixed reception 'round here Al writes: > The problem I see with the Cambridge examples is students don't LEARN anything > about what they're programming on. They're given a bunch of magic recipes and > don't learn what they're for. What you end up with is what you > could have done with 10 lines of Z80 assembly talking to a terminal through a > UART, but in the example you have to make your own terminal, talking to a big > blob of USB stack and graphics coprocessor glue. It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the "bare metal". I ran across this (probably inadvertent, possibly sly, but still funny and relevant) quote on Wikipedia: "By the late 1960s change was coming: as operating systems and programming language compilers evolved, software production costs were dramatically increasing." From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 4 09:54:47 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 07:54:47 -0700 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50461637.8040503@bitsavers.org> On 9/4/12 6:07 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the "bare metal". > That is true if you start out with a SOC that never was intended for embedded systems use, like this part was. All of the I/O is just... wrong. If you want to be doing bare metal development, you should be using something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 It's small, it's 'slow' but the I/O on it is actually USEFUL for building stuff. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 4 11:17:52 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:17:52 -0700 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012 Sep 3, at 1:15 PM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>> Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. >> >> Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of >> that. :?) >> > > I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only > add a single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE > OF THE QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs* > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a > server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a > duck. > [Cipher in a.s.r] I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text, in contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment. And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like spam. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 4 11:29:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 09:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2012 Sep 3, at 1:15 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Mon, 3 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> >>>> Unfortuantely life is not only what you enjoy. Not even in hobbies. >>> >>> Actually, for once, I can't take issue with a single word of that. :?) >>> >> >> I enjoy it when people don't quote 150+ lines of a message to only add a >> single line comment to the end THAT COMMENTS ON THE LAST LINE OF THE >> QUTOTED EMAIL. *coughs* >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >> >> Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a >> server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. >> [Cipher in a.s.r] > > I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text, in > contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment. > > And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like spam. > > Touche'! Number of fucks given? Zero. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 13:00:50 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:00:50 +0100 Subject: CP/M clones & compatible OSes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4 September 2012 17:17, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I enjoy it when people limit their sigs to perhaps 2 lines of text, in > contrast to sigs that are several times the size of their comment. > > And advertising in sigs tends to make one's messages look a lot like spam. Good point - that might be why Gmail consistently flags Gene's messages as spam for me. I was under the impression that in the Good Old Days, the maximum acceptable length of a .sig was 4 lines? That's what I try to stick to. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 13:28:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 14:28:53 -0400 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <50464865.3090001@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2012 09:07 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare > metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the > "bare metal". I strongly disagree. You're looking in the wrong places. Boards like the Raspberry Pi are just not designed for that sort of thing. There are a great many other boards, however, that are. Personally I do a lot of ARM development, designing custom boards and writing the firmware. I do ALL of my systems bare metal. When I'm starting to work with a different ARM chip, I get a development board for that chip first, usually one of the Olimex boards, and start porting my "standard toolbox" of stuff to that...getting UART drivers working, interrupt handlers, etc, all on known-working hardware. Then I start working on my custom board. All bare metal. RPi just wasn't designed for that sort of thing; it was designed to be an amazingly cheap, serviceable, low-power Linux system. If you need that, it's the right tool for the job. If you don't, it probably isn't. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 14:13:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:13:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Sep 4, 12 11:20:16 am Message-ID: > that this article is aimed at)? When introducing Z80 assembler, you > also look at the Z80 as a magic black box that you give commands to > which then does stuff. You don't need to know the internal Well, maybe you do But I figured out the basics of PDP11 machien code from the 11/45 printset -- schematics and microcode flows. It was all I had. And it meant I really understood what was going on. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:33:24 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 16:33:24 -0400 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 9:07 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare metal" without > a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the "bare metal". Increasingly difficult perhaps, but not impossible. I just got my R-Pi this weekend. I know how to drop a bunch of files on an SD card, and I know how to to write C programs in a UNIX/Linux environment, but I don't happen to know the ins and outs of ARM assembly (I've done lots of assembly, but only on CPUs designed before 1980). I happen to be going through the Cambridge tutorials as a quick way to pick up the things that are new to me because of ARM, and to pick up what specific directive syntax GCC's assembler wants (my first program failed to compile because it didn't like my attempt to put to-the-end-of-the-line comments after a semicolon). I already teach folks at the hackerspace how to build projects with Arduino. For all the thousands of R-Pi units that have already sold and how many more will be sold, it's going to be a part of the hobby ecosystem for some time. I am looking at what's out there now because when the supply chain problems are finally worked out, I know there will be a clamor for courses to teach a whole new round of folks what it is and what they can do with it. Is it perfect? No. Is it $35? Yes. It's going to be popular, especially with people who just see the initial price tag and want to do *something* with it. -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Tue Sep 4 15:46:39 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 22:46:39 +0200 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504668AF.8010508@hachti.de> Hi, Am 03.09.2012 21:39, schrieb Bob Vines: > In the 01 Sep 2012, cctalk Digest, Vol 109, Issue 1, Topic #2, Brenton > Bryant wrote: > > "Recently I found an incomplete PDP-8/a and need the transformer and > backplane to start working on it. If anyone has one or both then > please let me know." Now idea why I don't have the original message. I have a pdp8/a backplane sitting around. Looks fine. But I have no idea if it is good. And I have no 8/a to test it. In fact I've never even used an 8/a. If there's still interest, I could take a photo. Please send personal email. Kind regards, Philipp > What type of (incomplete) you PDP-8/A do you have? > The power supply is different for the core vs. semiconductor memories > and different backplanes used in these machines. There are three > different power supplies available, depending on the backplane and the > memory. The chassis you have should have a label telling what it is. > > The PDP-8/A uses the ?76? Power Supply AssembIy which includes: > ?9192 Omnibus (10 module slots) > G801? Power Supply Module (Semiconductor Memory) > Power board > Transformer AssembIy > Line Set > Operator's ????l > > The PDP-8?100, 8?400, 8?600,& 8?800 use the ?9?00 Chassis AssembIy > which includes: > ?9194 Omnibus (12 slots) > G8016 Power Supply Module (Semiconductor ??????) OR G8018 Power Supply > Module (Core ?emor?) > Transformer AssembIy > Line Set > Operator's ????l > > The PDP-8?420, 8?620,& 8?820 use the ??8-? Expander Chassis AssembIy > which includes: > ?9195 Omnibus (20 slots) > 2 G8018 Power Supply Modules (Core Memory) > Transformer AssembIy > Line Set > Operator's ????l > Power Distribution Assembly > > The above information is from the "PDP8A Minicomputer Handbook 1976-77." > (http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/MinicomputerHandbook_1976.pdf) > > Paul Anderson *may* be able to provide what you need -- he had a > PDP-8/A chassis available at the end of last year and it *may* have > what you need (i.e., power supply& backplane). > > So, what (incomplete) model PDP-8/A do you have? > > > Thanks, > > Bob -- Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239 Fax. 0511/3500439 hachti at hachti.de www.tiegeldruck.de UStdID DE 202668329 From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Sep 4 16:06:59 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:06:59 +0200 Subject: GNU and the BSD kernel In-Reply-To: <50429E91.1020903@bitsavers.org> References: <201209012339.q81NdX1T12648570@floodgap.com> <50429E91.1020903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120904210659.GB30622@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Sep 01, 2012 at 04:47:29PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/1/12 4:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >I think I would probably strangle him if I had to be in the same room with > >him for any length of time. > > You don't want to be in the same room with him for other reasons. Especially if you are female (as reported to me by a reliable first hand source). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 19:51:39 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 19:51:39 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 7 In-Reply-To: <5041C18E.7000804@brouhaha.com> References: <5041C18E.7000804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Jason T wrote: > Darn! Same weekend as HHC 2012. > > http://hhuc.us/2012/ Now there's an event I wasn't aware of. Unfortunately, one of the Maker Faires is the same weekend as well, so that is also cutting into our attendance. Still, we press on. For great ccmp! -j From Hollandia at ccountry.net Tue Sep 4 22:21:06 2012 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 20:21:06 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program Message-ID: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that could warn of an impending failure? Thanks, Kurt From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 22:29:28 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:29:28 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2012, at 11:21 PM, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that > could warn of an impending failure? Well, there's Spin Rite, but I hear it is becoming increasingly less relevant with newer disks. It also doesn't work with AHCI. If you are using this for vintage IDE disks, neither of the above disclaimers should matter. - Dave From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Sep 4 22:36:47 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 20:36:47 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <5046C8CF.8090707@gorge.net> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that > could warn of an impending failure? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > Time to make some popcorn. ;-) -jimd From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Sep 4 22:45:10 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:45:10 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, Message-ID: spinrite for everything up to current technology -1 or -2 for anything newer use HDD Regenerator and I also recommend enabling SMART which is built into the drive,and will tell you in advance if the drive is starting to go > Subject: Re: Hard-drive diagnostic program > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:29:28 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Sep 4, 2012, at 11:21 PM, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > > > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that > > could warn of an impending failure? > > Well, there's Spin Rite, but I hear it is becoming increasingly less > relevant with newer disks. It also doesn't work with AHCI. If you are > using this for vintage IDE disks, neither of the above disclaimers should > matter. > > > - Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 22:45:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 23:45:30 -0400 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <50461637.8040503@bitsavers.org> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50461637.8040503@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5046CADA.5090206@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2012 10:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare >> metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the >> "bare metal". > > That is true if you start out with a SOC that never was intended for > embedded systems use, like this part was. > All of the I/O is just... wrong. > > If you want to be doing bare metal development, you should be using > something like this > http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 > > It's small, it's 'slow' but the I/O on it is actually USEFUL for > building stuff. "Slow" is not a word I'd use to describe a Cortex-M3 core at 80MHz. Remember "bare metal" here...no lumbering pig kernels like Linux or even NetBSD involved. One of my latest designs for work is an ARM7 (not Cortex) running a multitasking RTOS that's up to eight fairly busy tasks now. I've clocked it down to 48MHz because that's all it needs, and I need to keep the whole board down below about 140mA because it's going into a customer's existing, fairly limited machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 22:48:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 23:48:52 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5046C8CF.8090707@gorge.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <5046C8CF.8090707@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5046CBA4.3030102@neurotica.com> On 09/04/2012 11:36 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: >> Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that >> could warn of an impending failure? > > Time to make some popcorn. ;-) My thoughts exactly. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 23:10:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:10:33 -0400 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <5046CADA.5090206@neurotica.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50461637.8040503@bitsavers.org> <5046CADA.5090206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AFDB9B9-F213-420A-93D9-E5B8967AAC50@gmail.com> On Sep 4, 2012, at 11:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/04/2012 10:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything "bare >>> metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB stack on the >>> "bare metal". >> >> That is true if you start out with a SOC that never was intended for >> embedded systems use, like this part was. >> All of the I/O is just... wrong. >> >> If you want to be doing bare metal development, you should be using >> something like this >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 >> >> It's small, it's 'slow' but the I/O on it is actually USEFUL for >> building stuff. > > "Slow" is not a word I'd use to describe a Cortex-M3 core at 80MHz. Remember "bare metal" here...no lumbering pig kernels like Linux or even NetBSD involved. Right. And at 92K of RAM and 256K program memory, many PDP-11 operating systems would fit reasonably well and run a hell of a lot faster (assuming the feasibility of a port, which is next to nil). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 23:12:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 21:12:59 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2012 at 20:21, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, > that could warn of an impending failure? What platform? What type of hard drive? I'm not aware of anything that will that with a SCSI drive, for example. Popcorn, indeed. Just don't use any of that microwave-butter-flavor stuff. It's supposed to be bad for you. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 23:19:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 00:19:08 -0400 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <4AFDB9B9-F213-420A-93D9-E5B8967AAC50@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <50461637.8040503@bitsavers.org> <5046CADA.5090206@neurotica.com> <4AFDB9B9-F213-420A-93D9-E5B8967AAC50@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5046D2BC.9010402@neurotica.com> On 09/05/2012 12:10 AM, David Riley wrote: >>>> It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything >>>> "bare metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a USB >>>> stack on the "bare metal". >>> >>> That is true if you start out with a SOC that never was intended >>> for embedded systems use, like this part was. All of the I/O is >>> just... wrong. >>> >>> If you want to be doing bare metal development, you should be >>> using something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/150839172147 >>> >>> It's small, it's 'slow' but the I/O on it is actually USEFUL for >>> building stuff. >> >> "Slow" is not a word I'd use to describe a Cortex-M3 core at 80MHz. >> Remember "bare metal" here...no lumbering pig kernels like Linux or >> even NetBSD involved. > > Right. And at 92K of RAM and 256K program memory, many PDP-11 > operating systems would fit reasonably well and run a hell of a lot > faster (assuming the feasibility of a port, which is next to nil). Hmm. How much of a POSIX layer is required by simh? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 4 23:20:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 00:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <201209050420.AAA23290@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, > that could warn of an impending failure? Especially here, that's difficult to answer without knowing what kind of drive (mostly, what interface, but in some cases what manufacturer and perhaps even what model) and what OS. Admittedly, your use of "hard drive" for what I would call a "disk" does seem to imply that you are coming from a rather peeceeish world, but, while it makes some answers seem more probable, it hardly answers the above questions. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 4 23:39:31 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 21:39:31 -0700 Subject: 68K Chess prototype or project In-Reply-To: <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I just picked up an interesting item from WeirdStuff. It seems to be an 8X8 grid with magnetic reed switches, a 68K processor on a proto board. It had a 4 digit LCD display ( that was broken ), 128K bytes of RAM, 128K of ROM, a clock crystal and assorted parts. I'm wondering if it was a prototype for soem game system or maybe some project from some magazine? Does anyone know of such a magazine project? Who ever built it had access to HP parts. The proto board is gold plated and it has 1820-0976 parts on it ( 4015B ). Not the kind of thing you see often. I've not tried to power on yet. I have another similar display but I don't know if the pins are the same. One of the keypad switches is broken and missing parts. I believe the keys marked P, N, K, B, R and Q would indicate the intent was in fact Chess. Dwight From greg_sz at videotron.ca Tue Sep 4 21:42:39 2012 From: greg_sz at videotron.ca (Greg S) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2012 22:42:39 -0400 Subject: Atlantic Research Comstate manual wanted Message-ID: Are you still lookin for thaat manual ? I have copy of manual of Interview Comstate 2 and Interview 4600. I can copy it and sent to you if you pay the cost. But they are much more sophisticated than Comstate 1 You should be capable to use it without manual is rather simple. If it works correctly. The manuals I mentioned are almost 1" thick each so cost may be significant. Let me know Regards Greg Szymsiak -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 5 01:51:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 01:51:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that > could warn of an impending failure? > > Thanks, > > Kurt The first person who comes up with a way to reliably predict drive failure would become an overnight billionaire. Even Google doesn't have all the answers... http://research.google.com/pubs/pub32774.html http://research.google.com/archive/disk_failures.pdf It was discovered however that drives don't like being shouted at... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDacjrSCeq4 http://blogs.oracle.com/brendan/entry/unusual_disk_latency https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMPozJFC8g0 http://blogs.oracle.com/video/entry/the_making_of_shouting_in Of course not all drives die of natural causes... http://www.etsy.com/listing/74331808/large-rare-1984-seagate-hard-drive-now-a Mmmm popcorn... From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 02:14:43 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:14:43 +0200 Subject: sortof-OT: bare metal R? In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B251EF01D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20120905091443.9f4c1a36.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 4 Sep 2012 13:07:26 +0000 "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > It's ironic that it seems increasingly hard to do anything > "bare metal" without a graphical UI IDE on a desktop and a > USB stack on the "bare metal". As has been mentioned already: If you wane do things like this Rpi is the wrong tool because it is designed to run a full blowen OS. If you wane start with in depth bare metal programming something like a AVR 8 bit microcontroler is much better suited. And you can programm it just using command line tools like vi(1), make(1), avr-as(1), avr-gcc(1), ... I'd prefere it over the smaler ARM microcontrolers for this purpose as a AVR is as simple as a microcontroler can get today. Especially as you can show students what you can do with just one single 14 Pin DIP chip on a breadboard. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Sep 5 06:55:38 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 07:55:38 -0400 Subject: OLD Sony Trinitron Monitor Problems Message-ID: <50473DBA.5000901@compsys.to> I am still using a Sony Trinitron Multisacn E400 Monitor with a ten year old system. When I first boot the computer in the morning, the monitor manages to support normal boot operations (I use 1280 by 1024 as a standard pixel setting). But if another full screen window is used, the monitor will cut out in a manner I don't know how to describe - other than it stops all display. The simple solution is to power off, then on and I have been doing this for the past two months. I realize that with a ten year old (or perhaps older) monitor, it will eventually have to be replaced or repaired. The latter option is almost certainly NOT cost effective since I have neither the tools nor the knowledge to do the repair myself. I do have two questions: (a) Is there any possibility of either damage to the other components or even myself if I continue to use the monitor until it completely fails? (b) Is there any point in waiting 15 minutes (approximately) that the monitor seems to need to warm up completely to prevent the problem in the first place, i.e. will preventing the problem from happening by providing enough time for the monitor to completely warm up prolong the limited expected life of the monitor at this point? Any other comments would be appreciated, especially in respect of questions that I do not know to even ask. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 11:36:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 09:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20120905092214.M15127@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > The first person who comes up with a way to reliably predict drive failure > would become an overnight billionaire. Your spinning rust will fail! [Am I the first? USA dollars or facebook shares?] Oh. You want to know WHEN? Prob'ly in less than 40 years. plus or minus 40. Statistically, drives tested with Spinrite fail sooner than those that never get tested at all. (likewise, people in hospital critical care wards are more likely to die than the general population of people at home.) How many people remember when Spinrite BY DEFAULT would take any KNOWN BAD tracks, and return them to use if they happened to pass the Spinrite tests? (Spinrite testing is substantiqally less thorough than the analog testing that manufacturers do.] It consistently could not find fault with the track that Windoze 3.10 setup consistently died on. Thanks to DUMBDRV's delayed writes, there were no choices of Abort, Fail, or Ignore, and Windoze did not give a choice about it installing the cacheing software and misconfiguring it. I told MICROS~1 that they had a problem; they said "hardware problem, not interested"; they had to do a free replacement of MS-DOS 6.00 with 6.20 (to configure the cacheing in a less suicidally agressive setup) > Mmmm popcorn... They will last longer in a cool dry environment with no magnets and no popcorn. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:58:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 12:58:16 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > Of course not all drives die of natural causes... > > http://www.etsy.com/listing/74331808/large-rare-1984-seagate-hard-drive-now-a "This was a very rare and original hard drive in pristine condition, so we destroyed it." - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 5 12:25:55 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 10:25:55 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50478B23.3090700@jwsss.com> On 9/5/2012 9:58 AM, David Riley wrote: > "This was a very rare and original hard drive in pristine condition, > so we destroyed it." I contacted the "artist" and told him he was a moron. We'll see what comes back. I suspect I won't get a certificate of authenticity. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 12:19:49 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 10:19:49 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504789B5.70003@bitsavers.org> On 9/5/12 9:58 AM, David Riley wrote: > "This was a very rare and original hard drive in pristine condition, > so we destroyed it." > >> Seagate 8" hard drive << They also appear to be incapable of using a ruler From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 13:35:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 19:35:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: OLD Sony Trinitron Monitor Problems In-Reply-To: <50473DBA.5000901@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Sep 5, 12 07:55:38 am Message-ID: > > I am still using a Sony Trinitron Multisacn E400 Monitor with a ten year old > system. When I first boot the computer in the morning, the monitor manages > to support normal boot operations (I use 1280 by 1024 as a standard pixel > setting). But if another full screen window is used, the monitor will > cut out in > a manner I don't know how to describe - other than it stops all display. It sounds as though you are changing the can rates, and that the monitor is not locking to the new rate correctly (althogh it should). It is then shutting down as a safety feature. Most likely it's a capacitor problem in the horizotnal defleciton circuit. Just don't ask me to tell you how to troubleshoot it without a service manual. > > The simple solution is to power off, then on and I have been doing this for > the past two months. I realize that with a ten year old (or perhaps older) > monitor, it will eventually have to be replaced or repaired. The latter > option > is almost certainly NOT cost effective since I have neither the tools > nor the > knowledge to do the repair myself. > > I do have two questions: > (a) Is there any possibility of either damage to the other components > or even > myself if I continue to use the monitor until it completely fails? What do yu mean by 'component' (the word has differnet meanings to differnet people). If you mean individual electornci ocmponens inside the monitor, then yes, there is a slight psosiblilty of damaging things like the horizotnal output transistor. It's unlikely becuase the monitor is shutting down, but it cna't be a good thing. If ou mean 'comoponents' like the PC video card, then I can't see how it could cause any damage to those. And I think the risk of damage to you is minimal. > (b) Is there any point in waiting 15 minutes (approximately) that the > monitor > seems to need to warm up completely to prevent the problem in the > first > place, i.e. will preventing the problem from happening by > providing enough > time for the monitor to completely warm up prolong the limited > expected > life of the monitor at this point? I don;t think that will do any harm, and it might do some good. If you were an electronics type, I'd suggest using freezer spray and a hair drier (!) on the components in the horixotnal deflection section of the monitor to see if you cna fidn the thermally-sensitive one. But there are high votlages areound that area, so if you do go inside, take care. -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 13:56:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 14:56:07 -0400 Subject: 68K Chess prototype or project In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2012, at 12:39 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > I just picked up an interesting item from WeirdStuff. It seems > to be an 8X8 grid with magnetic reed switches, a 68K processor > on a proto board. > It had a 4 digit LCD display ( that was broken ), 128K bytes of RAM, > 128K of ROM, a clock crystal and assorted parts. > I'm wondering if it was a prototype for soem game system or maybe > some project from some magazine? Does anyone know of such > a magazine project? > Who ever built it had access to HP parts. The proto board is gold > plated and it has 1820-0976 parts on it ( 4015B ). > Not the kind of thing you see often. > I've not tried to power on yet. I have another similar display but > I don't know if the pins are the same. > One of the keypad switches is broken and missing parts. > I believe the keys marked P, N, K, B, R and Q would indicate the > intent was in fact Chess. > Dwight > I'm not sure if it's related, but my wife has a "computerized" chess game which has magnets in the bottoms of the pieces. It was her father's, and it looks to be about 68k vintage, but I'm prohibited from opening it up. :-) We just use it as a regular chess board, since we're cheapskates. It's called "Gambit", which of course is quite difficult to find on Google because if you search for "chess" and "gambit", the results are all about chess gambits (and the five hundred other computer chess programs called "Gambit"). - Dave From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 16:12:23 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:12:23 -0500 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <5047c033.e54c320a.3c31.04ee@mx.google.com> At 10:45 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: >spinrite for everything up to current technology -1 or -2 >for anything newer use HDD Regenerator >and I also recommend enabling SMART which is >built into the drive,and will tell you in >advance if the drive is starting to go You should definitely turn on SMART in the BIOS if supported. But that will only report impending failure on boot-up-- I have machines with uptimes exceeding 3 months (6-12 months for my linux machines) so that's no good. There's a smartmon package for both *nix and windows that can tell the drive to self-test every night, and do the long self-test on say Sunday night. SMART tests don't take the drive offline and don't slow down access to the drive (not so's you could tell, anyhow.) > > Subject: Re: Hard-drive diagnostic program > > From: fraveydank at gmail.com > > Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2012 23:29:28 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > On Sep 4, 2012, at 11:21 PM, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > > > > > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, that > > > could warn of an impending failure? > > > > Well, there's Spin Rite, but I hear it is becoming increasingly less > > relevant with newer disks. It also doesn't work with AHCI. If you are > > using this for vintage IDE disks, neither of the above disclaimers should > > matter. > > > > > > - Dave > > > 109 . [Fiction] "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly. Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why. Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land. Man gotta tell himself he understand." --Kurt Vonnegut Jr. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 16:14:02 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:14:02 -0500 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5047c28b.879d320a.6471.0710@mx.google.com> At 11:12 PM 9/4/2012, you wrote: >On 4 Sep 2012 at 20:21, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > > > Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, > > that could warn of an impending failure? > >What platform? What type of hard drive? I'm not aware of anything >that will that with a SCSI drive, for example. Scusi drives often implement SMART (all my old 4gb, 9gb, and 18gb Compaq fast-wide drives in my old array did) >Popcorn, indeed. Just don't use any of that microwave-butter-flavor >stuff. It's supposed to be bad for you. > >--Chuck 203 . "Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time - I think I've forgotten this before." --Stephen Wright NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 5 17:38:00 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:38:00 -0400 Subject: IBM 3494 Tape Library Message-ID: <2285AF72-3F56-4B74-9E96-462AAB3725E7@me.com> The university I attend, University of Windsor, in Windsor, Ontario, Canada has an IBM 3494 tape library they are planning to get rid of. I was wondering if anyone on this list would be interested, if it doesn't find a new home it'll be going to the electronics recyclers. The machine is very big, and is in working condition. It won't be coming with any tapes, the tapes that are in it right now will be destroyed. If you're interested, let me know and I'll put you in touch with the relevant people. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Sep 5 21:07:14 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:07:14 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> On 9/5/2012 2:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > >> Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, >> that could warn of an impending failure? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kurt > > The first person who comes up with a way to reliably predict drive > failure would become an overnight billionaire. I've just recently had SMART catch an impending failure. I use diskcheckup (not too horrible, for windows) and smartmontools + GSmartControl on ubuntu. Both will email you with problems. smartmontools on linux is really nice. For general admin purposes, gsmartcontrol(as a front end to smt) is good. For regular scheduling of automated tests, running smartd(part of smartmon) all the time with a config file is working out nicely. Drives have what are called "pre-failure" attributes, and if the values of those attributes exceed the threshold, then the drive is considered to be failing. The drive manufacturer will (generally) honor the warranty if THEIR smart utilities confirm the failure. A 1TB seagate (7200.11) failed with a Reallocated Sector Count(4153!!). It was also indicating some Offline Uncorrectables. Seagate's utility offered up a defect verification code (or whatever it is called) and off to seagate. They replaced it, although their rma process was SLOW SLOW SLOW. I managed to copy all the data off successfully, but it started making some physical noises during the copy --- further confirming(to me anyways) that it was on it's way out. SMART isn't perfect, and is definitely not a replacement for good backups, but it's better than nothing. Keith From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 5 21:11:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:11:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <406AC22A-E5FC-4F82-AFAE-6C2F04C0B4AC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 5, 2012, at 2:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Of course not all drives die of natural causes... >> >> http://www.etsy.com/listing/74331808/large-rare-1984-seagate-hard-drive-now-a > > "This was a very rare and original hard drive in pristine condition, > so we destroyed it." The sad part is I could very much -use- a ST225 in good condition right now (...and I suspect I'm not the /only/ one). As it is, I'll be replacing a nearly dead ST225 drive and its controller with an XT-IDE and a CompactFlash card once I get board assembled. It might not be "original" but it'll likely far outlast the failing ST225. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 21:39:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 19:39:31 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, , <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5047AA73.27630.24A6F61@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2012 at 22:07, Keith Monahan wrote: > Drives have what are called "pre-failure" attributes, and if the > values of those attributes exceed the threshold, then the drive is > considered to be failing. The drive manufacturer will (generally) > honor the warranty if THEIR smart utilities confirm the failure. I was surprised to have a 5GB Seagate ST-1 CF-style microdrive report a SMART "impending failure" when used on an IDE-CF adapter. Do CF cards of the flash variety implement SMART? IOW, will they inform you that the number of available blocks is about to decline? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 22:08:25 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 20:08:25 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5047AA73.27630.24A6F61@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, , <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <5047AA73.27630.24A6F61@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <504813A9.4000206@bitsavers.org> On 9/5/12 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Do CF > cards of the flash variety implement SMART? IOW, will they inform > you that the number of available blocks is about to decline? > at least one appears to www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/CF4_DS_Rev1.0.pdf there was another message I saw implying some controllers talk ATAPI, which do not support SMART From Hollandia at ccountry.net Wed Sep 5 22:46:44 2012 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 20:46:44 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program Message-ID: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Hi again, A program that I was sent long ago gave the following info for the drive I am thinking of: Read Hard Disk Parameters Copyright 1995, Sydex, Inc. All Rights Reserved. An AT controller was found For ESDI/IDE Drive 0: Cylinders 2358 Heads 16 Sectors/Track 63 Buffer Size 64K Total Sectors 2376864 Drive supports DMA Drive supports LBA Firmware Revision: 99C60LE7 Model Number: IBM-DPRA-21215 Serial Number: 1L47L4V2902 It is operated under DOS 5 and Windows 3.1. The drive does the same thing in Windows and in DOS. I don't know who has encountered the Commodore 1541 drive. Thise who have will recall the hammering noise it made at turn-on and also when it encountered a difficulty with a disk it was reading. The drive under consideration is, I think, doing the same thing. It periodically makes a noise that sounds like an impact. This noise is being encountered with increasing frequency; I wonder if the the drive is headed for a failure. I have other drives I can put in its place, if need be. I don't understand the reference to "popcorn"...what is the meaning here? Thanks, Kurt From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Sep 5 23:02:38 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:02:38 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <5048205E.5050207@gorge.net> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Hi again, > > > > I don't understand the reference to "popcorn"...what is the meaning here? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > When someone asks a ambiguous question that will result in multiple replies and possibly alternative views on a problem, You make popcorn , set back and watch the fun unfold. Cheers, jimd. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 5 23:06:33 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 23:06:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 9/5/2012 2:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Tue, 4 Sep 2012, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: >> >>> Will someone name a program that will do "checkup" on a hard drive, >>> that could warn of an impending failure? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Kurt >> >> The first person who comes up with a way to reliably predict drive >> failure would become an overnight billionaire. > > I've just recently had SMART catch an impending failure. > Drives have what are called "pre-failure" attributes, and if the values of > those attributes exceed the threshold, then the drive is considered to be > failing. The drive manufacturer will (generally) honor the warranty if THEIR > smart utilities confirm the failure. > > A 1TB seagate (7200.11) failed with a Reallocated Sector Count(4153!!). It > was also indicating some Offline Uncorrectables. Seagate's utility offered up > a defect verification code (or whatever it is called) and off to seagate. > They replaced it, although their rma process was SLOW SLOW SLOW. > > I managed to copy all the data off successfully, but it started making some > physical noises during the copy --- further confirming(to me anyways) that it > was on it's way out. > > SMART isn't perfect, and is definitely not a replacement for good backups, > but it's better than nothing. SMART is better than nothing, although it too isn't all that reliable of a metric. I've had drives up and die without so much as triggering a SMART warning and I have drives with a great many reallocated sectors still plugging away, some with now well over 100,000 power on hours (with the data they contain backed up, of course). On the other hand, far too many people think SMART is a _reliable_ way to predict drive failure and try to depend on it to "warn" them /before/ their drive fails. This /eventually/ leads to disastrous results since they usually don't bother to back up their files. Of course these tend to be the same types of people who actually think RAID is a valid alternative to keeping backups... To wit: multiple drive failure. One of the key things I've discovered with higher quality drives is that the lower the number of head retractions (and spin down cycles) the longer the drive seems to last. I initially discovered this purely by accident, and this is something you /never/ want to see: === START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION === Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds: ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE UPDATED WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE [snip] 9 Power_On_Hours 0x0012 053 053 000 Old_age Always - 20827 193 Load_Cycle_Count 0x0012 001 001 000 Old_age Always - 2131639 ~2.1 million head load/unload cycles... 2131639 load/unload cycles / 20827 power on hours = 102.35 cycles per hour 102.35 cycles per hour / 60 minutes = 1.71 cycles per minute More background: http://tothwolf.livejournal.com/35252.html Ultimately Linux itself wasn't the cause, the hard drive itself just defaulted to a very very dumb power management mode. The default power management mode might not have been as bad with a fat32 or vfat filesystem, but filesystems such as ext2/ext3 constantly want to update atime, so with my drive it turned out the heads would retract/reload roughly 1.71 times per minute. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 5 23:11:34 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 23:11:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2012, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The drive under consideration is, I think, doing the same thing. It > periodically makes a noise that sounds like an impact. This noise is > being encountered with increasing frequency; I wonder if the the drive > is headed for a failure. I have other drives I can put in its place, if > need be. I wouldn't trust a drive that is making unusual noises. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_of_death#Hard_disk_drives http://datacent.com/hard_drive_sounds.php From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Sep 5 23:20:58 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:20:58 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5048205E.5050207@gorge.net> References: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <5048205E.5050207@gorge.net> Message-ID: <504824AA.1040705@gorge.net> jimpdavis wrote: > Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: >> Hi again, >> >> >> >> I don't understand the reference to "popcorn"...what is the meaning >> here? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kurt >> >> > When someone asks a ambiguous question that will result in multiple > replies and possibly alternative views > on a problem, You make popcorn , set back and watch the fun unfold. > > Cheers, > jimd. > > Ambiguous is a bit over the top. I think that not defining the machine, O/S, interface and drive type invited a lot of questions. In the old days, this question would have be shunted to a PC support group. I guess PCs are vintage enough now. -jimd From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Sep 5 23:30:54 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:30:54 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <504826FE.8070505@gorge.net> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > Hi again, > > > I don't know who has encountered the Commodore 1541 drive. Thise who have > will recall the hammering noise it made at turn-on and also when it > encountered a difficulty with a disk it was reading. > > The drive under consideration is, I think, doing the same thing. It > periodically makes a noise that sounds like an impact. This noise is being > encountered with increasing frequency; I wonder if the the drive is headed > for a failure. I have other drives I can put in its place, if need be. > > I don't understand the reference to "popcorn"...what is the meaning here? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > Hi Kurt, I'm not sure, but I think loss of servo on a track will result in the drive attempting to recalibrate by seeking the lowest density track to re-acquire the servo track clock. This results in the heads retracting to a know area, possibly overshooting track 0 and hitting the hard stop. Like I said, I'm not sure, But others on this group can identify the fault, Since some luminaries here have designed and/or worked on hard disk firmware and hardware. -jimd From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 5 23:44:46 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:44:46 -0700 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... Message-ID: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one was included in the auction (per the description). Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 23:48:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20120905214432.D38186@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The drive under consideration is, I think, doing the same thing. It > periodically makes a noise that sounds like an impact. This noise is being > encountered with increasing frequency; I wonder if the the drive is headed > for a failure. I have other drives I can put in its place, if need be. THAT (that the drive is making a specific "bad" noise) would have been MUCH more useful for you to get the info that you wanted than the completely wide-open query whether there's a program to predict failure. Such programs look at incidence of read errors, etc.; they do NOT test for loose track zero stops, etc. seek to different tracks, and recalibrate (seek to zero), and see whether that is the same noise. > I don't understand the reference to "popcorn"...what is the meaning here? Does the noise sound like corn popping? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 23:49:46 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 23:49:46 -0500 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer > Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and > asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one > was included in the auction (per the description). > > Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no > PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable > Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor > Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" > > It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have > peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. > > Cheers, > Lyle > -- > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 23:59:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 21:59:47 -0700 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50482DC3.7010603@gmail.com> On 9/5/2012 9:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer > Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and > asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one > was included in the auction (per the description). > > Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no > PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable > Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor > Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" > > It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have > peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. > > Cheers, > Lyle Isn't this the same one someone here bought and never received ? This was relisted before by a "business partner" if so. Sounded kind of fishy. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Sep 6 00:03:05 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:03:05 -0700 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50482E89.2040306@gorge.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer > Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and > asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one > was included in the auction (per the description). > > Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no > PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable > Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor > Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" > > It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have > peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. > > Cheers, > Lyle Hi Lyle, Shouldn't it be "Oxygen sensor for Ford Explorer"? Of course, If shipping for a ford explorer was $5.00, I would be suspicious. Cheers, jimd From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 00:10:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2012 22:10:09 -0700 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> On 9/5/2012 9:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal > > PayPal didn't get the money back for you ? They are usually pretty good about protecting buyers. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 00:22:31 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 00:22:31 -0500 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <50482DC3.7010603@gmail.com> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50482DC3.7010603@gmail.com> Message-ID: yes it is and that someone is me On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:59 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/5/2012 9:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer >> Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and >> asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one >> was included in the auction (per the description). >> >> Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no >> PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable >> Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor >> Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" >> >> It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have >> peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. >> >> Cheers, >> Lyle >> > > Isn't this the same one someone here bought and never received ? This was > relisted before by a "business partner" if so. Sounded kind of fishy. > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Sep 6 01:15:14 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 01:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 11:44 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer >> Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and >> asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one >> was included in the auction (per the description). >> >> Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no >> PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable >> Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor >> Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" >> >> It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have >> peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. > > thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Computer-Equipment-Pertec-T6840-9-45-U2-DEC-PDP8-S-Digital-Equipment-/200795357084 If you haven't already, you should contact the police department where they are located (Malden, Massachusetts?) and file a fraud report along with copies of your Paypal payment. Then, send a copy of the police report to Paypal. That should get you a refund and hopefully a nice officer will knock on their door too. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 18:53:19 2012 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 17:53:19 -0600 Subject: booting RSTS-11 Message-ID: I managed to get RSTS-11 (circa 1974) installed on an RK05 drive for my PDP-11/10. The M873-YA bootstrap loader does not seem to be able to boot the disk. I can boot the drive via a manual bootstrap routine. I saw on a site that some bootloaders will refuse to boot a drive unless the first byte is 240(8). On RSTS-11, the first byte is 300(8). Any ideas why the bootstrap card is picky? Thanks! --barrym From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 01:37:11 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 01:37:11 -0500 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: passed the 40days or something On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:10 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/5/2012 9:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal >> >> >> > PayPal didn't get the money back for you ? They are usually pretty good > about protecting buyers. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 01:48:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 01:48:02 -0500 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: i filled an ic3 dompaint and i am in canada On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:37 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > passed the 40days or something > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:10 AM, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 9/5/2012 9:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal >>> >>> >>> >> PayPal didn't get the money back for you ? They are usually pretty good >> about protecting buyers. >> > > From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Thu Sep 6 04:46:01 2012 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 05:46:01 -0400 Subject: IBM 3494 Tape Library In-Reply-To: <2285AF72-3F56-4B74-9E96-462AAB3725E7@me.com> References: <2285AF72-3F56-4B74-9E96-462AAB3725E7@me.com> Message-ID: <0b864d$acpc1m@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 06:38 PM 05/09/2012, you wrote: >The university I attend, University of Windsor, in Windsor, Ontario, >Canada has an IBM 3494 tape library they are planning to get rid of. >I was wondering if anyone on this list would be interested, if it >doesn't find a new home it'll be going to the electronics recyclers. > >The machine is very big, and is in working condition. It won't be >coming with any tapes, the tapes that are in it right now will be >destroyed. If you're interested, let me know and I'll put you in >touch with the relevant people. > >-------- >Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP I am in Windsor, but alas, my garage and celler are pretty well stuffed right now. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Sep 6 08:47:18 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 09:47:18 -0400 Subject: OLD Sony Trinitron Monitor Problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5048A966.4090004@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>I am still using a Sony Trinitron Multisacn E400 Monitor with a ten year old >>system. When I first boot the computer in the morning, the monitor manages >>to support normal boot operations (I use 1280 by 1024 as a standard pixel >>setting). But if another full screen window is used, the monitor will >>cut out in >>a manner I don't know how to describe - other than it stops all display. >> >It sounds as though you are changing the can rates, and that the monitor >is not locking to the new rate correctly (althogh it should). It is then >shutting down as a safety feature. > >Most likely it's a capacitor problem in the horizotnal defleciton >circuit. Just don't ask me to tell you how to troubleshoot it without a >service manual. > > I would not consider attempting to open the case. There is a spare monitor waiting if this one fails. >>The simple solution is to power off, then on and I have been doing this for >>the past two months. I realize that with a ten year old (or perhaps older) >>monitor, it will eventually have to be replaced or repaired. The latter >>option >>is almost certainly NOT cost effective since I have neither the tools >>nor the >>knowledge to do the repair myself. >> >>I do have two questions: >>(a) Is there any possibility of either damage to the other components >>or even >> myself if I continue to use the monitor until it completely fails? >> >> > >What do yu mean by 'component' (the word has differnet meanings to >differnet people). > > I should have said the other components in the computer system, specifically such as the video card, or perhaps even the motherboard. >If you mean individual electornci ocmponens inside the monitor, then yes, >there is a slight psosiblilty of damaging things like the horizotnal >output transistor. It's unlikely becuase the monitor is shutting down, >but it cna't be a good thing. > > I thought that waiting the 20 to 40 minutes would be better. >If ou mean 'comoponents' like the PC video card, then I can't see how it >could cause any damage to those. > >And I think the risk of damage to you is minimal. > > That was all I was concerned about. >>(b) Is there any point in waiting 15 minutes (approximately) that the >>monitor >> seems to need to warm up completely to prevent the problem in the >>first >> place, i.e. will preventing the problem from happening by >>providing enough >> time for the monitor to completely warm up prolong the limited >>expected >> life of the monitor at this point? >> >I don;t think that will do any harm, and it might do some good. If you >were an electronics type, I'd suggest using freezer spray and a hair >drier (!) on the components in the horixotnal deflection section of the >monitor to see if you cna fidn the thermally-sensitive one. But there are >high votlages areound that area, so if you do go inside, take care. > Thank you for the advice. Today I waited about 40 minutes since there were a number of other tasks I needed to do elsewhere. The monitor did not cause a problem today. Yesterday I changed the refresh rate to 60 Hz from automatic. Someone else suggested that. It did not help. Jerome Fine From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Sep 6 08:45:59 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 09:45:59 -0400 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <20120906133958.M49986@kw.igs.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:44:46 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote > I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer > Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and > asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one > was included in the auction (per the description). www.ebay.com/itm/200814830163 -> Report Item -> Listing practices -> Search and browse manipulation -> Misleading title -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:21:44 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:21:44 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model Message-ID: mail man brought me this today http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.jpg :D anyone know much about that machean so far found this site http://www.computer-museum.nl/Electrologica.html and the wiki page like to find more photos of this machean From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Sep 6 13:29:36 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 11:29:36 -0700 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> Adrian Stoness wrote: > mail man brought me this today > > Does it run linux? Jimd. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:39:22 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:39:22 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> Message-ID: hahaha no On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> mail man brought me this today >> >> >> > Does it run linux? > > Jimd. > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 14:41:12 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 12:41:12 -0700 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504899E8.4184.FF8F57@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2012 at 13:21, Adrian Stoness wrote: > mail man brought me this today > > http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.jpg A new twist on the word "microcomputer"? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 14:58:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 12:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120906125742.L57717@shell.lmi.net> Then you have a project! On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > hahaha no > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > >> mail man brought me this today > >> > >> > >> > > Does it run linux? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 15:23:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:23:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209060346.q863keAP001192@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> from "Hollandia@ccountry.net" at Sep 5, 12 08:46:44 pm Message-ID: > I don't know who has encountered the Commodore 1541 drive. Thise who have > will recall the hammering noise it made at turn-on and also when it > encountered a difficulty with a disk it was reading. > > The drive under consideration is, I think, doing the same thing. It > periodically makes a noise that sounds like an impact. This noise is being > encountered with increasing frequency; I wonder if the the drive is headed > for a failure. I have other drives I can put in its place, if need be. Not good!. My guess is that the head positioning servo is loosing lock, and that the heads are thus swinging over the disk until they hit the end stop. At which point it recalibrates and tries again. Maybe due to an electronci problem, maybe due to disk damage (the head doesn't pick up the servo information correctly). Whatever, I'd back it up now... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 15:25:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:25:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5048205E.5050207@gorge.net> from "jimpdavis" at Sep 5, 12 09:02:38 pm Message-ID: > When someone asks a ambiguous question that will result in multiple > replies and possibly alternative views > on a problem, You make popcorn , set back and watch the fun unfold. My CORN stack is empty. Where can I get some pushcorn? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 15:19:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 21:19:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Sep 5, 12 09:11:36 pm Message-ID: > The sad part is I could very much -use- a ST225 in good condition right > now (...and I suspect I'm not the /only/ one). As it is, I'll be replacing Indeed, I could... > a nearly dead ST225 drive and its controller with an XT-IDE and a > CompactFlash card once I get board assembled. It might not be "original" > but it'll likely far outlast the failing ST225. That's a perfectluy good soltuion _if the drive is in a PC/XT or similar). It's no good (AFAIK) if the drive is in some other machine which happens to have an ST412-compatible drive interface (looking around me, I see a DEC RAinbow, a PRO35, the external hard disk box for my TRS-80 Model 4, a Xerox Daybreak, a PERQ, a couple of HP drive units, etc all of which fall into that category...) -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 15:43:57 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2012 14:43:57 -0600 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <20120906125742.L57717@shell.lmi.net> References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> <20120906125742.L57717@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50490B0D.5040905@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/6/2012 1:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Then you have a project! > > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> hahaha no >> >> On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: >> >>> Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>>> mail man brought me this today >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Does it run linux? > That would be ux... the 'lin' part will not fit! But is that all the P21000 components? I don't seem to see the 'CPU' chassis in the model. Ben. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:53:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 15:53:39 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <20120906125742.L57717@shell.lmi.net> References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> <20120906125742.L57717@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: indeed i do really happy about this model has some weight to it On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Then you have a project! > > > On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > hahaha no > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > > > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > > >> mail man brought me this today > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Does it run linux? > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 6 16:54:43 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 23:54:43 +0200 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004d01cd8c7a$3c7a01e0$b56e05a0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Adrian Stoness > Verzonden: donderdag 6 september 2012 20:22 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: phillips p1000 model > > mail man brought me this today > > http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.jpg > > :D > > anyone know much about that machean > > so far found this site > http://www.computer-museum.nl/Electrologica.html > > and the wiki page > > like to find more photos of this machean Some trivial info about Electro Logica it was founded by members of the CWI (Centrum voor Wiskunde en Informatica) and Edsger Dijkstra was one of the people who worked on the design of its predecessors. http://www.electrologica.nl/ about Electro Logica http://www.vgp-apeldoorn.nl/geschiedenis.html about Philips Data systems Apeldoorn and http://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ about Edsger Dijkstra Those sites should give you some more info. -Rik From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 6 17:36:12 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 15:36:12 -0700 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <50482E89.2040306@gorge.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net>, <50482E89.2040306@gorge.net> Message-ID: > From: jimpdavis at gorge.net > > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer > > Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and > > asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one > > was included in the auction (per the description). > > > > Here is the seller's reply: "This auction is not for the PDP8/S (no > > PDP8/S included), but this is part of the PDP8/S equipment. Comparable > > Example: 1997 Ford Explorer / O2 Sensor / Oxygen Sensor > > Thanks for your interest, and good luck with your bidding!" > > > > It is highly unlikely (impossible?) that a slow PDP-8/S would have > > peripherals as such as two RK05's and a PERTEC 6840. Sigh.. > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > Hi Lyle, > > Shouldn't it be "Oxygen sensor for Ford Explorer"? Of course, If > shipping for a ford explorer was $5.00, I would be suspicious. > > Cheers, > jimd > Still, if you bought an O2 sensor for a Ford Explorer and foundit only fit on a Navigator or a Chevie Suburban, you'd be pissed.Dwight From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Sep 6 21:29:30 2012 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 04:29:30 +0200 Subject: booting RSTS-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50495C0A.3080805@update.uu.se> On 2012-09-06 08:48, B M wrote: > > I managed to get RSTS-11 (circa 1974) installed on an RK05 drive for my > PDP-11/10. The M873-YA bootstrap loader does not seem to be able to boot > the disk. > > I can boot the drive via a manual bootstrap routine. > > I saw on a site that some bootloaders will refuse to boot a drive unless > the first byte is 240(8). On RSTS-11, the first byte is 300(8). > > Any ideas why the bootstrap card is picky? That's a way to try and protect you from booting random garbage. On some newer PDP-11s you can disable that check if you want to. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 01:04:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 01:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > >> The sad part is I could very much -use- a ST225 in good condition right >> now (...and I suspect I'm not the /only/ one). As it is, I'll be >> replacing > > Indeed, I could... http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/05/18 >> a nearly dead ST225 drive and its controller with an XT-IDE and a >> CompactFlash card once I get board assembled. It might not be >> "original" but it'll likely far outlast the failing ST225. > > That's a perfectluy good soltuion _if the drive is in a PC/XT or > similar). It's no good (AFAIK) if the drive is in some other machine > which happens to have an ST412-compatible drive interface (looking > around me, I see a DEC RAinbow, a PRO35, the external hard disk box for > my TRS-80 Model 4, a Xerox Daybreak, a PERQ, a couple of HP drive units, > etc all of which fall into that category...) With this particular machine, yes, it is a first-generation Compaq Deskpro (Intel 8086) with 8-bit ISA slots. I'm in the same boat with even my SGI IRIS 1400. Replacing the Vertex v170 ST412/506 drive with anything else would (at this point) be nearly impossible. From dflowers at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:13:59 2012 From: dflowers at gmail.com (Dave Flowers) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:13:59 -0700 Subject: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 Message-ID: I don't know if anyone is still interested in this. I have a Kaypro Micro1 with monitor and keyboard. It has a 10 MB hard drive and runs on MS DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1. It has 2 3.5" floppy drives. I've never seen another one anyplace. Dave From doug at doughq.com Thu Sep 6 21:06:55 2012 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:06:55 +1000 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do a charge back on your credit card - I sell my clocks via Paypal, and one of my customers did this recently - about 6 months after they received the goods - Paypal, and the Credit Card companies unconditionally protect the buyer - It makes it hard to run a business. Doug On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > passed the 40days or something > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:10 AM, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 9/5/2012 9:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal >>> >>> >>> >> PayPal didn't get the money back for you ? They are usually pretty good >> about protecting buyers. >> -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From corey at electricware.com Fri Sep 7 00:57:25 2012 From: corey at electricware.com (Corey Anderson) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 22:57:25 -0700 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away Message-ID: <6F8E9682-8969-4D9E-B2BC-3E3F72E54AB3@electricware.com> I recently rescued a DECwriter II (LA36) that needs a good home. I personally never used it, I merely saved it from being sent to landfill. It does have some yellowing to it, but other than dust and spider webs, appears to be in good shape. It has all its keys and the tractor feed and the carriage all move. I have not tried to plug it in. I collect Teletypes so I just couldn't stand the thought of this being tossed, thinking that someone out there would probably want it. If interested, it's yours. Otherwise it's going to be summarily recycled. I am not really interested in trying to ship it since I'd have no idea how to. I'd be willing to drive a little to help it find a home, but not more than 50 miles. I live in the Portland, Oregon area. If nobody is interested in the whole thing and wants parts only, I will consider parting it out and shipping things at your expense. Contact me if interested and want pictures or more info. Thanks, Corey. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 01:25:37 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 01:25:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <20120906133958.M49986@kw.igs.net> References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <20120906133958.M49986@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2012 21:44:46 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote > >> I contacted the seller of item #200814830163 "Vintage Computer >> Equipment / Pertec T6840-9-45 U2 / DEC PDP8/S Digital Equipment" and >> asked that since I didn't see a PDP8/S in any of the pictures if one >> was included in the auction (per the description). > > www.ebay.com/itm/200814830163 -> Report Item -> Listing practices -> > Search and browse manipulation -> Misleading title Those links don't do much good now after eBay and Paypal fired the people who used to handle this stuff in the US office and outsourced their "support" group to an overseas contract labor company. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 01:30:31 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 01:30:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:10 AM, mc68010 wrote: >> On 9/5/2012 9:49 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal >>> >> PayPal didn't get the money back for you ? They are usually pretty good >> about protecting buyers. > > passed the 40days or something If you want your money back, file a police report with the local police department and then forward that information onto the _Executive Escalations_ group within Paypal. To get them via the phone, call Paypal and demand a manager when you speak to the first level support people, then tell the manager you want to speak with someone in Executive Escalations. The amount in question is over USD $1000, so the local police department should take it seriously. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 7 01:44:58 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 08:44:58 +0200 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120907084458.f6f3dcf8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 21:12:59 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > I'm not aware of anything > that will that with a SCSI drive, for example. sformat: http://freshmeat.net/projects/sformat ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sformat/ -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 02:09:09 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 03:09:09 -0400 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Paypal, and the Credit Card companies unconditionally protect the > buyer - It makes it hard to run a business. Basically, yes, but if the buyer is trying to scam a seller (mostly by invoking a warranty that does not exist for items sold explicitly "as-is") and the seller puts up a good fight, Paypal will side with the seller. I (as a seller) have had this happen twice in the past few months, and I won both cases. In one of the instances, the buyer pulling this trick has given me trouble in the past, scamming me at hamfests, so I view my win as a nice victory. >> passed the 40days or something >>>> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal 40 days?!?!! At most auctions, live or internet, buyers forfeit their goods if not collected or formally arranged for pickup after a week or so - even if paid for. Adrian, sounds like your own fault for dillydallying. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 02:38:01 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 02:38:01 -0500 Subject: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Dave Flowers wrote: > I don't know if anyone is still interested in this. I have a Kaypro Micro1 > with monitor and keyboard. It has a 10 MB hard drive and runs on MS DOS 5.0 > and Windows 3.1. It has 2 3.5" floppy drives. I've never seen another one > anyplace. Interesting - that was an 8086 machine IIRC. Or am I forgetting that an XT could run Win 3.1? Also, where are you/is it? -- jht From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 7 02:39:19 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 00:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1347003559.79503.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 9/7/12, William Donzelli wrote: > 40 days?!?!! At most auctions, live or internet, buyers > forfeit their > goods if not collected or formally arranged for pickup after > a week or > so - even if paid for. Adrian, sounds like your own fault > for > dillydallying. I have been screwed in the past a time or two by taking a line of excuses from a seller until the eBay/Paypal clock ran out. These were situations where the seller had been paid both for the goods and shipping, and had simply failed to ship as promised. One seller claimed he had been out of town volunteering with relief efforts for hurricane Katrina, which sounded like a noble excuse until the seller vanished after having allegedly returned home and assuring me the goods were on their way. These days, regardless of what they say, I open a case with eBay if I don't have the stuff in my hands after a reasonable allowance for shipping delay. It doesn't hurt their ratings, so I am told, if the case is later closed by the buyer as resolved satisfactorily. If I think the seller is acting in good faith, I'll say as much, that I'm just covering my butt after having a few crooks abuse my patience in the past. --Bill From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 02:52:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 02:52:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, William Donzelli wrote: >> Paypal, and the Credit Card companies unconditionally protect the buyer >> - It makes it hard to run a business. > > Basically, yes, but if the buyer is trying to scam a seller (mostly by > invoking a warranty that does not exist for items sold explicitly > "as-is") and the seller puts up a good fight, Paypal will side with the > seller. I (as a seller) have had this happen twice in the past few > months, and I won both cases. In one of the instances, the buyer pulling > this trick has given me trouble in the past, scamming me at hamfests, so > I view my win as a nice victory. > >>> passed the 40days or something >>>>> thats the rack i bid and never got still out 1200$ fucking paypal > > 40 days?!?!! At most auctions, live or internet, buyers forfeit their > goods if not collected or formally arranged for pickup after a week or > so - even if paid for. Adrian, sounds like your own fault for > dillydallying. Unless the company fails to ship said goods/pallets out. This happened to me, with ~4 pallets worth of stuff "missing" on arrival of the rest of the load (they failed to put those pallets on the truck). It took me better than 6 months and a lot of fighting to get my money back. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 05:55:13 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 11:55:13 +0100 Subject: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 September 2012 08:38, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Dave Flowers wrote: >> I don't know if anyone is still interested in this. I have a Kaypro Micro1 >> with monitor and keyboard. It has a 10 MB hard drive and runs on MS DOS 5.0 >> and Windows 3.1. It has 2 3.5" floppy drives. I've never seen another one >> anyplace. > > Interesting - that was an 8086 machine IIRC. Or am I forgetting that > an XT could run Win 3.1? I am trying to remember if there was a magic incantation to get it to start if you had an NEC V30 chip or something, but I am not at all sure. I suspect that for an actual Intel 8086, Windows 3.0 was the latest - and you still couldn't run in VGA mode. (You only got VGA if you had an NEC V30; the VGA driver used 286 instructions.) MS-DOS 5 is really inefficient on anything less than a 386, too - 3.3 or 3.31 gives more free conventional memory. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 07:06:40 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 08:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <1347003559.79503.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347003559.79503.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, William Maddox wrote: > I have been screwed in the past a time or two by taking a line of > excuses from a seller until the eBay/Paypal clock ran out. These were > situations where the seller had been paid both for the goods and > shipping, and had simply failed to ship as promised. Similar situation here with the purchase of a mint Xerox 820-II system. Despite numerous pleas on my part it was apparently packed by trained chimps and arrived smashed to shards. The seller kept promising me a refund if I avoided opening a dispute - I got busy with Real Life in the meantime and he succeeded in running out the clock, closing his eBay account and disappearing while I was distracted. Last time I play Mr. Nice Guy. (Happy ending: I laboriously glued the case back together, straightened out bent frames, replaced chips torn (!) from their sockets, etc. The bugger ultimately worked. Figure $5-600 of my time to rebuild a $100 unit that shouldn't have required rework in the first place.) > These days, regardless of what they say, I open a case with eBay if I > don't have the stuff in my hands after a reasonable allowance for > shipping delay. Amen. Steve -- From Gary at realtimecomp.com Fri Sep 7 07:05:54 2012 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:05:54 -0400 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away References: Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526A@server1.RealTime.local> >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Corey Anderson >Sent: Fri 9/7/2012 2:45 AM >If nobody is interested in the whole thing and wants parts only, I will consider >parting it out and shipping things at your expense. > >Contact me if interested and want pictures or more info. Corey, I'm looking for a couple of keys for mine, If you end up parting it out, could I get the R and X keys from it? Gary Gary at Realtimecomp.com From chd at chdickman.com Fri Sep 7 08:29:36 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:29:36 -0400 Subject: DEC module handles stampings and revisions Message-ID: Does anyone know how to interpret the letters stamped on the side of DEC module handles? I remember reading that these were FCO and/or Revision marks, but can't find the reference any more. -chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 7 08:57:01 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 06:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2012, Dave Flowers wrote: > I don't know if anyone is still interested in this. I have a Kaypro Micro1 > with monitor and keyboard. It has a 10 MB hard drive and runs on MS DOS 5.0 > and Windows 3.1. It has 2 3.5" floppy drives. I've never seen another one > anyplace. > Dave, do you have any pictures of the machine? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 09:50:50 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:50:50 -0400 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: <1347003559.79503.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347003559.79503.YahooMailClassic@web181601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > These days, regardless of what they say, I open a case with eBay if I don't have the stuff in my hands after a reasonable allowance for shipping delay. It doesn't hurt their ratings, so I am told, if the case is later closed by the buyer as resolved satisfactorily. If I think the seller is acting in good faith, I'll say as much, that I'm just covering my butt after having a few crooks abuse my patience in the past. Yes, this is the best thing to do, because it gives everyone an "out" with relatively no bad effects. However, it is always good to communicate before opening a case. For a seller, having a case opened with no warning is pretty much a kick in the balls. When buyers do it to me, they instantly go on my blocked bidder list, and never come off. This was a real problem in the old days, when Ebay had no "safe period", and a buyer could open a case just a few days after an auction ended. I remember one auction where I was slapped with a case sooner that the material could actually arrive if I had shipped the instant the auction was over. Anyway, I do not know the specifics of this whole case with the rack, but at the surface, I think the seller is jumping the gun as far as relisting is concerned, because Adrian should be able to reopen the case with Paypal if he really has been trying to get the equipment shipped - in which case the seller is in big trouble. I have certainly reopened cases after 40 days for various reasons. However, if Adrian has just been waiting as the time ticks away, with little or no communication, there may end up being no joy. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 09:54:05 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 10:54:05 -0400 Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: References: <20120905214446.793b3794@asrock.bcwi.net> <50483031.8020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Unless the company fails to ship said goods/pallets out. This happened to > me, with ~4 pallets worth of stuff "missing" on arrival of the rest of the > load (they failed to put those pallets on the truck). It took me better than > 6 months and a lot of fighting to get my money back. Yes, that is why I put the "formally arranged" bit in there. You did your part, they did not do there's. Perhaps "formally" is the wrong word - maybe "in good faith" is better. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 10:14:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:14:16 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <20120907084458.f6f3dcf8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120907084458.f6f3dcf8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2012 at 8:44, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 21:12:59 -0700 > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > I'm not aware of anything > > that will that with a SCSI drive, for example. > sformat: > http://freshmeat.net/projects/sformat > ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sformat/ So this will diagnose problems with an Seagate ST238N connected to an ST-01 controller? (We are talking classic computers here). --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 7 11:18:11 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 11:18:11 -0500 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> At 09:07 PM 9/5/2012, Keith Monahan wrote: >A 1TB seagate (7200.11) failed with a Reallocated Sector Count(4153!!). It was also indicating some Offline Uncorrectables. Seagate's utility offered up a defect verification code (or whatever it is called) and off to seagate. They replaced it, although their rma process was SLOW SLOW SLOW. I've been seeing some horrible failure rates on that first gen of 1 TB (consumer) drives, now that it's about two years out. I had some fail almost right away, and I RMA'd them, and those failed, too. I am right that SMART doesn't pass-through if the drive is in an external USB case? - John From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 7 11:28:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:28:48 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <504A20C0.8060109@bitsavers.org> On 9/7/12 9:18 AM, John Foust wrote: > I've been seeing some horrible failure rates on that first gen of 1 TB > (consumer) drives, now that it's about two years out. I had some > fail almost right away, and I RMA'd them, and those failed, too. > 1TB 7200.11s are garbage. I have a stack of them that NEVER worked even after upgrading the firmware. > I am right that SMART doesn't pass-through if the drive is in an > external USB case? > Correct From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 11:50:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 09:50:05 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50480552.7040803@verizon.net>, <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2012 at 11:18, John Foust wrote: > I've been seeing some horrible failure rates on that first gen of 1 TB > (consumer) drives, now that it's about two years out. I had some fail > almost right away, and I RMA'd them, and those failed, too. This brings up a question that I have regarding high-capacity drives. On my day-to-day use systems, I stick with lower-capacity drives (160, 320 or 500 GB) because I have a mistrust in the larger 1TB, 2TB and 3TB hard drives being offered at what, to my mind, are fire-sale prices. I do use a couple of 2TB drives for backup, but they're probably run less than once per week for whatever time it takes to back things up. Is my mistrust merely paranoia or am I being prudent? --Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Sep 7 11:51:55 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 12:51:55 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <504A20C0.8060109@bitsavers.org> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, , <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net>, <504A20C0.8060109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I hope current-generation ones are better,I just bought a 3TB seagate M01 or M001 drive1TB per platter. it was a better choice over the WD green drivesthat have a horrible LCC problem.LLC limit of 300k and does about 8-10k per day.30 days later oops drive is dead. nice. > Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 09:28:48 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Hard-drive diagnostic program > > On 9/7/12 9:18 AM, John Foust wrote: > > > I've been seeing some horrible failure rates on that first gen of 1 TB > > (consumer) drives, now that it's about two years out. I had some > > fail almost right away, and I RMA'd them, and those failed, too. > > > > 1TB 7200.11s are garbage. I have a stack of them that NEVER worked > even after upgrading the firmware. > > > I am right that SMART doesn't pass-through if the drive is in an > > external USB case? > > > > Correct > From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 12:04:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:04:45 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50480552.7040803@verizon.net>, <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2012, at 12:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2012 at 11:18, John Foust wrote: > >> I've been seeing some horrible failure rates on that first gen of 1 TB >> (consumer) drives, now that it's about two years out. I had some fail >> almost right away, and I RMA'd them, and those failed, too. > > This brings up a question that I have regarding high-capacity drives. > > On my day-to-day use systems, I stick with lower-capacity drives > (160, 320 or 500 GB) because I have a mistrust in the larger 1TB, 2TB > and 3TB hard drives being offered at what, to my mind, are fire-sale > prices. I do use a couple of 2TB drives for backup, but they're > probably run less than once per week for whatever time it takes to > back things up. > > Is my mistrust merely paranoia or am I being prudent? I suppose it depends. I have yet to find a recent-vintage hard drive that I'll put my trust in, because they've all started failing with little to no notice. I used to rely almost exclusively on Seagate drives, especially back when WD was churning out piles of crap in the late '90s and early '00s, but Seagate's reliability seems to have dropped in the toilet in recent years. Unsurprisingly, it seems to have coincided with their acquisition of Maxtor. I've been happy-ish with recent-make WD "green" drives; they're quiet and don't heat up as much, both of which give me a level of confidence that they're not incurring lots of mechanical or thermal stress (that may be all in my head). They occasionally seem to have serious issues (data corruption type) with some USB<->SATA bridges, but that seems to correlate some with 4k sectors as well. I haven't had one fail yet except under those circumstances, but I'm sure there's a time for everything. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 12:06:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:06:09 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, , <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net>, <504A20C0.8060109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <96F1C308-3791-43D5-AF27-29EFF439A379@gmail.com> On Sep 7, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I hope current-generation ones are better,I just bought a 3TB seagate M01 or M001 drive1TB per platter. > it was a better choice over the WD green drivesthat have a horrible LCC problem.LLC limit of 300k and does about 8-10k per day.30 days later oops drive is dead. nice. I should note that, given my previous statement about how I liked the "green" drives that I use them mainly for backup purposes, which means low duty cycle. I can't really comment on their reliability as a general-purpose drive. - Dave From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Sep 7 12:24:46 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 17:24:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 Message-ID: <872025829.1394326.1347038686978.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 25 >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 11:55:13 +0100 >From: Liam Proven > >On 7 September 2012 08:38, Jason T wrote: >> Interesting - that was an 8086 machine IIRC. Or am I forgetting that >> an XT could run Win 3.1? > >I am trying to remember if there was a magic incantation to get it to >start if you had an NEC V30 chip or something, but I am not at all >sure. I suspect that for an actual Intel 8086, Windows 3.0 was the >latest - and you still couldn't run in VGA mode. (You only got VGA if >you had an NEC V30; the VGA driver used 286 instructions.) > You are limited to Windows 3.0 or lower on a 8088, 8086 or 80186. Windows 3.1 dropped Real Mode support, so it needs an 80286 or better. I have run Windows 3.0 on a Poqet (8088) and HPLX 200 (80186) using the CGA drivers. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 13:30:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 12:30:42 -0600 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away In-Reply-To: <6F8E9682-8969-4D9E-B2BC-3E3F72E54AB3@electricware.com> References: <6F8E9682-8969-4D9E-B2BC-3E3F72E54AB3@electricware.com> Message-ID: In article <6F8E9682-8969-4D9E-B2BC-3E3F72E54AB3 at electricware.com>, Corey Anderson writes: > I am not really interested in trying to ship it since I'd have no idea > how to. It's not that difficult. You basically band strap it to a pallet and put some shrink wrap over it to keep the keycaps from vibrating off. DECwriter IIs are very sturdy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 7 13:37:48 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 20:37:48 +0200 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907084458.f6f3dcf8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 08:14:16 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > So this will diagnose problems with an Seagate ST238N connected to an > ST-01 controller? (We are talking classic computers here). Sure. If you put it into a classic computer, that runs a Unix OS and has apropriate device drivers for the ST-01. Though, I'd skip the ST-01 alltogether and use a SPARCstation 1. SunOS 4 is an environement where sformat feels very happy, as its roots go back to SunOS 3 on Sun 3 hardware. You can even use it to exercise SMD disks of that era. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:46:56 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:46:56 -0500 Subject: DEC module handles stampings and revisions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have any in front of me, but i think the first number is the last digit of the year it was made and the next two aro the week of the year. Most boards weren't made for more than 10 years. The letters are the cs rev, with "*" being an early release before "A". The etch rev is etched onto the board, usually after the 50-XXXXX number. There are exceptions. Paul On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:29 AM, Charles Dickman wrote: > Does anyone know how to interpret the letters stamped on the side of DEC > module handles? I remember reading that these were FCO and/or Revision > marks, but can't find the reference any more. > > -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 13:55:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 11:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <50480552.7040803@verizon.net>, <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120907115416.L96121@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is my mistrust merely paranoia or am I being prudent? Yes. Where I work: "The question is not 'Are you paranoid?'; the question is 'Are you Paranoid enough?'" From d235j.1 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:02:18 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 15:02:18 -0400 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50466EDB.6488.99FFD@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907084458.f6f3dcf8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Yeah, after reading the ratings on the Seagate consumer drives, it seems they're no better than WD "Green" drives. I'm sticking to WD Blue and Black, as well as Hitachi. Maybe Toshiba will produce something decent in the near future. Seagate's high-end Constellation drives are probably fine, but expect to pay a lot more for those. --David From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 14:48:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2012 12:48:37 -0700 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5049ED25.263.102AF34@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2012 at 20:37, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > So this will diagnose problems with an Seagate ST238N connected to > > an ST-01 controller? (We are talking classic computers here). > Sure. If you put it into a classic computer, that runs a Unix OS and > has apropriate device drivers for the ST-01. Though, I'd skip the > ST-01 alltogether and use a SPARCstation 1. SunOS 4 is an environement > where sformat feels very happy, as its roots go back to SunOS 3 on Sun > 3 hardware. You can even use it to exercise SMD disks of that era. -- Hokay, exactly how will this predict failures? Note that the ST238N is an early drive and has a very limited command vocabulary--pretty much 6-byte CDBs. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 15:07:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Jason T wrote: > Interesting - that was an 8086 machine IIRC. Or am I forgetting that > an XT could run Win 3.1? XT could run Windoze 3.00, but could NOT run 3.10 3.10 requires A20 support and HIMEM.SYS. (Yes, it can run on an AT with 1M of RAM, but only if some of that RAM is mapped to reside above the 1M line) HIMEM.SYS "solved" the "RAM CRAM" issues of too many TSRs. 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the buffers). Correcting that misconfiguration was the change that differentiated MS-DOS 6.20 from 6.00, and "fixed the problems with disk compression". From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 15:07:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:07:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Sep 7, 12 01:04:48 am Message-ID: > > That's a perfectluy good soltuion _if the drive is in a PC/XT or > > similar). It's no good (AFAIK) if the drive is in some other machine > > which happens to have an ST412-compatible drive interface (looking > > around me, I see a DEC RAinbow, a PRO35, the external hard disk box for > > my TRS-80 Model 4, a Xerox Daybreak, a PERQ, a couple of HP drive units, > > etc all of which fall into that category...) > > With this particular machine, yes, it is a first-generation Compaq Deskpro > (Intel 8086) with 8-bit ISA slots. > > I'm in the same boat with even my SGI IRIS 1400. Replacing the Vertex v170 > ST412/506 drive with anything else would (at this point) be nearly > impossible. > I cna think of at least 4 categories of machines : 1) Those with an 8 or 16 bit ISA bus. For which there are solutions, like the XT-IDE + CF card 2) Machines that require an ST412-type drive, but can take any geometry, and will use all of it. 3) Machines that have a limited number of differnet geometries they can use, but don't check the drive carefully. If the drive has more heads/cylinders that the machine thinks it should do, the machine doesn't use all the disk space, but it does work 4) Machines that require one of a limited numebr of geometries, and check the drive to make sure it matches. If the selected gheometry says 4 hears, and the drive has 6, the machine will not use said drive. The last are by far the worst to find replacement drives for... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 15:34:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:34:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away In-Reply-To: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526A@server1.RealTime.local> from "Gary L. Messick" at Sep 7, 12 08:05:54 am Message-ID: > I'm looking for a couple of keys for mine, If you end up parting it out, c= > ould I get the R and X keys from it? I would rather a complete machine was not parted out, not even an LA36 :-) Somewhere I have a lot of LA36 bits. I probably have a keyboard PCBm adn could remove keycaps if you cna't get them any other waye. Aren't they the same as VT100 keycpas? The keyboard is much the same design. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 15:48:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 21:48:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Supposed eBay "PDP-8/S" listing... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 7, 12 10:50:50 am Message-ID: > > > These days, regardless of what they say, I open a case with eBay if I don't have the stuff in my hands after a reasonable allowance for shipping delay. It doesn't hurt their ratings, so I am told, if the case is later closed by the buyer as resolved satisfactorily. If I think the seller is acting in good faith, I'll say as much, that I'm just covering my butt after having a few crooks abuse my patience in the past. > > Yes, this is the best thing to do, because it gives everyone an "out" > with relatively no bad effects. However, it is always good to > communicate before opening a case. For a seller, having a case opened Agreed. I try to be reasonable about this. I realise that many sellers have 'real' jobs, and certainly don't expect things to be shipped on the day the auction finishes. However, uless the selelr indicates to the contrary (for example 'Due to my job, I can only get to the post office on Saturdays'), I do expect things ot be shipped within a few days. And I have a reasoanble idea of how long the shipping should take. If I don't get anything within a reasoable period, I try to cotnact the seller. My first message is of the form 'I have not receiced the I purchased from you, has there been a problem'. Of coruse, if it's an international seller and they provide a tracking number for the parcel, I sue that to see what is going on. One time a parcel was delayed in shipment. For some reason it got stuck in a warehouse in a US airport for about 6 weeks. The seller was extremely helpful. THey provided tracking numbers, etc. I could see what was going on. THey thought ht has been lost in the post, and offered me a full refund. My reply was that as they were a dealer in such equipment, and that the unit was not expeically rare, I owuld be happy if they kept the money until they got another one in stock and sent me that. As it happened, the one I'd paid for turned up a couple of days later. Needless to say I contacted the seller to say I'd got it, that I was very happy both with the unit and with the wya they had handled things. I have only had 2 poor experiences. One time a machine appeared to have been damaged in shipping, I am not so sure. But the samge was fairly minor (HP9826s are built like brick outhoses, only yhe case was cracked, the PCBs and even the CRT was fine). The machine was worth what I'd paid for it in the condition it had arrived in. So I guess I was happy-ish. The other time was more serious, The seller kept on saying he'd dispatched the item ('Sorry, I didn';t get to the post office on Friday, I'll send tomorrow'). Nothign turned up. And then the seller de-registered from E-bay. That time I did raise a case with Ebay. And did get a fukl refund from Paypal. But I had tried, repeatedly, to contact the seller to find otu what was going on before I complained to Ebay/Paypal. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 23:22:29 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 23:22:29 -0500 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away In-Reply-To: References: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526A@server1.RealTime.local> Message-ID: Vt100 and LA120 might mix, but not the LA36. It will take a while, but I'll look here when I can. Paul On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm looking for a couple of keys for mine, If you end up parting it out, c= >> ould I get the R and X keys from it? > > I would rather a complete machine was not parted out, not even an LA36 :-) > > Somewhere I have a lot of LA36 bits. I probably have a keyboard PCBm adn > could remove keycaps if you cna't get them any other waye. Aren't they > the same as VT100 keycpas? The keyboard is much the same design. > > -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Sep 8 02:15:20 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 09:15:20 +0200 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5049ED25.263.102AF34@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <5049ACD8.16213.782DA@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907203748.4c61a464.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5049ED25.263.102AF34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120908091520.f3fee6bb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 07 Sep 2012 12:48:37 -0700 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Hokay, exactly how will this predict failures? Note that the ST238N > is an early drive and has a very limited command vocabulary--pretty > much 6-byte CDBs. OK, I didn't know about the ST238Ns earlynes. So sformat my not be able to read diagnostic information from the drive. But at least it can do extensive random read / write testing. I found that this pushes most flaky drives over the cliff. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Sep 8 02:25:09 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 09:25:09 +0200 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> Message-ID: <20120908092509.1f792391.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:39:22 -0500 Adrian Stoness wrote: > hahaha no > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > >> mail man brought me this today > >> > >> > >> > > Does it run linux? Mount a RaspberryPi in it... ;-) p.s. Prior art: http://hackaday.com/2012/01/10/help-chris-boot-his-cray-1-supercomputer/ -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 02:58:29 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 02:58:29 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <20120908092509.1f792391.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5048EB90.20903@gorge.net> <20120908092509.1f792391.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: maybe in a few yrs On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 2:25 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 13:39:22 -0500 > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > hahaha no > > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:29 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > > > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > > > >> mail man brought me this today > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Does it run linux? > Mount a RaspberryPi in it... ;-) > > p.s. Prior art: > http://hackaday.com/2012/01/10/help-chris-boot-his-cray-1-supercomputer/ > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Sep 8 04:29:21 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:29:21 +0200 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> On 09/06/2012 08:21 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > mail man brought me this today > > http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.jpg > > :D > > anyone know much about that machean > > so far found this site > http://www.computer-museum.nl/Electrologica.html > > and the wiki page > > like to find more photos of this machean Very nice model. I've seen similar for Cray and IBM computers. They usually fetch a rather large price :) Cheers, pontus. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 04:35:05 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 04:35:05 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> References: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: i would imagin when i go to insure this what should i be insuring it for? On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 4:29 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 09/06/2012 08:21 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> mail man brought me this today >> >> http://farm9.staticflickr.com/**8302/7944707284_f8f4fa6ab8_b.**jpg >> >> :D >> >> anyone know much about that machean >> >> so far found this site >> http://www.computer-museum.nl/**Electrologica.html >> >> and the wiki page >> >> like to find more photos of this machean >> > > Very nice model. I've seen similar for Cray and IBM computers. They > usually fetch a rather large price :) > > Cheers, > pontus. > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 08:12:15 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:12:15 +0100 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <20120907115416.L96121@shell.lmi.net> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907115416.L96121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 7 September 2012 19:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 7 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Is my mistrust merely paranoia or am I being prudent? > > Yes. > Where I work: "The question is not 'Are you paranoid?'; > the question is 'Are you Paranoid enough?'" Thus quoting noted SF authoress Pat Cadigan, although I have a feeling she was channelling Jerry Pournelle. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 08:16:26 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:16:26 +0100 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 7 September 2012 21:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > HIMEM.SYS "solved" the "RAM CRAM" issues of too many TSRs. Not really, no. It gave you just 64K of "High RAM". There was a special version of Novell's NETX.EXE to go in there, and MS-DOS 5 or above could relocate some DOS data structures and things in there, but 64K wasn't much. It was Upper Memory Blocks - UMBs - that were the real solution, and that meant a 386 and EMM385.EXE or Quaterdeck QEMM386. > 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, > altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the > buffers). I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. > Correcting that misconfiguration was the change that > differentiated MS-DOS 6.20 from 6.00, and "fixed the problems with disk > compression". MS-DOS 6.0 contained DoubleSpace. Then, STAC sued over code stolen from Stacker, and won. Result: MS-DOS 6.1: no disk compression Then, it was re-implemented with clean code - still a theft of the concept, but not the code - as DriveSpace and release in MS-DOS 6.2. Then there were 2 minor bug-fixes, 6.21 and 6.22. I don't recall SMARTDRV being a major factor. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 8 11:06:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 09:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> <20120907115416.L96121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120908085714.H23554@shell.lmi.net> > > Where I work: "The question is not 'Are you paranoid?'; > > the question is 'Are you Paranoid enough?'" On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Thus quoting noted SF authoress Pat Cadigan, although I have a feeling > she was channelling Jerry Pournelle. In 1984, I told it to Jerry Pournelle. Q: Who was I quoting THEN? Jerry used to come by our Comdex and Computer Faire booths for a beer. I told my staff to put a cold beer in his hand immediately when he arrived. We could afford very little advertising other than "free ink". A: Wilson Price, founder of our department in mid 1960s, and author of a few textbooks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 8 11:41:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 09:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> > > HIMEM.SYS "solved" the "RAM CRAM" issues of too many TSRs. On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Not really, no. It gave you just 64K of "High RAM". Hence the quotation marks around "solved". It was a ludicrous claim. > > 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, > > altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the > > buffers). > I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. Careful would not protect you if you had a disk write error during delayed writes (you were slightly lucky), but it WOULD NOT protect you from turning off the machine before writes after it came back to the prompt on exiting a program. "I'm DONE! SAVE. EXIT. At the prompt? Hit the power switch!" Agood reason for implementing the "shutdown procedure"! Infoworld printed at least a dozen articles of the form of "Users of new DOS 6 losing data!" Return to prompt before writing buffers was where the InforWorld "test" blew it. Billg tried to tell Infoworld that their testing methodology was flawed, and they misinterpreted that as "intimidation". InfoWorld's "test" of "disk compression problems" consisted of Word Pervert and Lotus running macros, Followed by a reboot, In a loop, until the disk had problems. The ACTUAL cause of the problems was that the reboot was occurring before the write-cached buffers got written to disk. Microsoft correctly insisted that the testing was flawed and did not show disk compression problems; but Microsoft would NOT admit that SMARTDRV was, indeed, damaging the test data, and causing the bad results. > > Correcting that misconfiguration was the change that > > differentiated MS-DOS 6.20 from 6.00, and "fixed the problems with disk > > compression". > MS-DOS 6.0 contained DoubleSpace. > Then, STAC sued over code stolen from Stacker, and won. Correct. > Result: MS-DOS 6.1: no disk compression Nope. There was no MS-DOS 6.1 (or 6.10. THAT was PC-DOS 6.10 (with a different compression). The debacle that resulted in free "step-up" from 6.00 to 6.20 was BEFORE the suit. The lawsuit caused the change from 6.20 with compression to 6.21 without compression. Then 6.22 had a different "non-infringing" compression. The judge awarded Stac about $100 million, but awarded MICROS~1 about $30 million in their counter-suit. Billg said, "I'm having a bad day." > Then, it was re-implemented with clean code - still a theft of the > concept, but not the code - as DriveSpace and release in MS-DOS 6.2. NO. in 6.22 As to "theft of concept", STAC was NOT the only disk compression product on the market, nor the first. NB: There was never a Six point ONE. Nor a six point TWO. It was Six point TEN, and Six point TWENTY. MOV AH, 30h INT 21h returned 6 in AL and 0Ah or 1.4h in AH Microsoft version numbers are an integer "MAJOR" number, a "full stop", followed by a TWO digit decimal number for "MINOR" number There WAS a DOS "Four point one" (4.01), but never a 4.1 (4.10) > Then there were 2 minor bug-fixes, 6.21 and 6.22. You are right in concept, but your version numbers are wrong. 6.00 was the full-blown shopping excursion. Basically 5.00 with lots of bundled stuff (hence "NEW AND IMPROVED"), including the infringing disk compression. 6.10 was IBM's PC-DOS version. It had a different compression 6.20 was "to repair problems with disk compression", such as those reported by Infoworld. The "repair" consisted of reconfiguring SMARTDRV to have 1) write-cacheing OFF by default 2) IF write-cacheing were enabled to not re-arrange writes 3) IF write-cacheing were enabled, to NOT return to the DOS prompt until the buffers had been written. (6.20 may have had some additional trivial bug fixes) 6.21 was the one with disk compression REMOVED 6.22 was the re-release with "non-infringing" disk compression > I don't recall SMARTDRV being a major factor. Microsoft would never admit that SMARTDRV had problems, but it was actually the ONLY (or at least PRIMARY) factor! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 8 13:45:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 11:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20120908114459.Q25682@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i would imagin > when i go to insure this what should i be insuring it for? fire theft being stepped on From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 13:50:35 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 13:50:35 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: <20120908114459.Q25682@shell.lmi.net> References: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> <20120908114459.Q25682@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: i mean value lol On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 1:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > i would imagin > > when i go to insure this what should i be insuring it for? > > fire > theft > being stepped on > > > > From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Sep 8 14:56:08 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 21:56:08 +0200 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <504BA2D8.2010806@update.uu.se> On 09/06/2012 06:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > One of the key things I've discovered with higher quality drives is > that the lower the number of head retractions (and spin down cycles) > the longer the drive seems to last. I initially discovered this purely > by accident, and this is something you /never/ want to see: Which is why you can buy drives that doesn't spin down. > Ultimately Linux itself wasn't the cause, the hard drive itself just > defaulted to a very very dumb power management mode. The default power > management mode might not have been as bad with a fat32 or vfat > filesystem, but filesystems such as ext2/ext3 constantly want to > update atime, so with my drive it turned out the heads would > retract/reload roughly 1.71 times per minute. Doesn't most people mount ext2/ext3 with "noatime" ? /P From chd at chdickman.com Sat Sep 8 15:24:13 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 16:24:13 -0400 Subject: DEC module handles stampings and revisions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 2:46 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I don't have any in front of me, but i think the first number is the > last digit of the year it was made and the next two aro the week of > the year. Most boards weren't made for more than 10 years. The letters > are the cs rev, with "*" being an early release before "A". The etch > rev is etched onto the board, usually after the 50-XXXXX number. There > are exceptions. > > Thanks Paul! That makes sense when I compare chip dates, etc. -chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Sep 8 16:20:26 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 23:20:26 +0200 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <504BA2D8.2010806@update.uu.se> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <504BA2D8.2010806@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20120908212026.GA31466@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 09:56:08PM +0200, Pontus wrote: > On 09/06/2012 06:06 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > >One of the key things I've discovered with higher quality drives > >is that the lower the number of head retractions (and spin down > >cycles) the longer the drive seems to last. I initially discovered > >this purely by accident, and this is something you /never/ want to > >see: > > Which is why you can buy drives that doesn't spin down. > > >Ultimately Linux itself wasn't the cause, the hard drive itself > >just defaulted to a very very dumb power management mode. The > >default power management mode might not have been as bad with a > >fat32 or vfat filesystem, but filesystems such as ext2/ext3 > >constantly want to update atime, so with my drive it turned out > >the heads would retract/reload roughly 1.71 times per minute. > > Doesn't most people mount ext2/ext3 with "noatime" ? Depends, noatime is usually used when one wants to keep writes down as far as possible, e.g. when running from CF/SD cards. When running normal machines with harddisks or SSDs, noatime isn't used, especially since it breaks some assumptions about filesystem semantics. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 17:51:19 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 15:51:19 -0700 Subject: Teletype ASR33 Lot on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> from "Seth Morabito" at May 10, 12 08:24:52 pm, Message-ID: <504BCBE7.1070400@gmail.com> If people are still looking for Teletypes here's a nice lot of 3 with reasonable shipping. In fact it is probably too low. In the US anyway. Item # 200817228834 http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASR33-Teletype-Model-3320-3JA-LT-33-Lot-of-3-/200817228834 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 18:10:27 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 18:10:27 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC PDP-8/A power transformer and backplane In-Reply-To: <504668AF.8010508@hachti.de> References: <504668AF.8010508@hachti.de> Message-ID: here ths transformer u were looking for http://www.ebay.com/itm/BAD-DEC-Digital-Transformer-PDP8A-Chassis-8A-60-Hz-1075-56-16-12398-3527735-/221121350828?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337bdc0cac#ht_970wt_813 this guy may even have a backplane laying around bought 8a stuff off him befor From spedraja at ono.com Sat Sep 8 19:17:28 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 02:17:28 +0200 Subject: Teletype ASR33 Lot on Ebay In-Reply-To: <504BCBE7.1070400@gmail.com> References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> <504BCBE7.1070400@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2012/9/9 mc68010 : > If people are still looking for Teletypes here's a nice lot of 3 with > reasonable shipping. In fact it is probably too low. In the US anyway. Yeah. Bad for me and my money :-( > > Item # 200817228834 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASR33-Teletype-Model-3320-3JA-LT-33-Lot-of-3-/200817228834 From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 19:24:21 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2012 17:24:21 -0700 Subject: Teletype ASR33 Lot on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> <504BCBE7.1070400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504BE1B5.7040705@gmail.com> On 9/8/2012 5:17 PM, SPC wrote: > 2012/9/9 mc68010 : >> If people are still looking for Teletypes here's a nice lot of 3 with >> reasonable shipping. In fact it is probably too low. In the US anyway. > Yeah. Bad for me and my money :-( > You got 'em then ? I'd say you got a great deal. Manuals, tape, and all. That shipping seems really low too. Can't really ship a pallet of anything anywhere except in town for $180. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Sep 9 07:53:01 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 08:53:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Does anyone have the need for... Message-ID: All -- I'm trying to clear unneeded gear from my shop and I have the following three somewhat modern pieces of server hardware available to a good home. I'm just tripping on them so they need to go. * Compaq ProLiant PL1600 5U rack server. Dual Pentium 3 with 6-drive integrated RAID (86gb). Boot hard drive is bad (9gb SCSI). With some spare parts/rack stuff. I used this as one of my first servers in my house before I shifted to NAS and micro-servers. Great machine until the boot hard drive bit the dust?ran Windows NT Server then Windows 2000 Server. * Snap Server N4100. Early NAS RAID. 1U rack size. 4-drive/750gb. Works fine but has inter-operability issues with XP/Vista/7 (due to change in SMB authentication protocol I remember reading). Missing front faceplate (may be in the shop somewhere). * Sony AIT-162 16-tape AIT2 library (16x50g uncompressed). 2U rack size. Comes with tapes/bar code labels. I have the software somewhere. Worked the last time I used it but when the server died I changed everything around. Because of the size/weight, it would be pickup only from Nassau County, LI (11791). If anyone's interested, please contact me off-list and we can arrange something. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From spedraja at ono.com Sun Sep 9 09:09:03 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:09:03 +0200 Subject: Teletype ASR33 Lot on Ebay In-Reply-To: <504BE1B5.7040705@gmail.com> References: <20120511002452.GA19464@mail.loomcom.com> <504BCBE7.1070400@gmail.com> <504BE1B5.7040705@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2012/9/9 mc68010 : > On 9/8/2012 5:17 PM, SPC wrote: >>> >>> If people are still looking for Teletypes here's a nice lot of 3 with >>> reasonable shipping. In fact it is probably too low. In the US anyway. >> >> Yeah. Bad for me and my money :-( > > You got 'em then ? I'd say you got a great deal. Manuals, tape, and all. > That shipping seems really low too. Can't really ship a pallet of anything > anywhere except in town for $180. I live in Europe, in Spain being exact. I don't think it wouldn't be expensive for all the shipment ways available. Sergio From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:27:14 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:27:14 +0100 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 8 September 2012 17:41, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > HIMEM.SYS "solved" the "RAM CRAM" issues of too many TSRs. > > On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> Not really, no. It gave you just 64K of "High RAM". > > Hence the quotation marks around "solved". It was a ludicrous claim. OIC. Fair enough! >> > 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, >> > altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the >> > buffers). >> I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. > > Careful would not protect you if you had a disk write error during delayed > writes (you were slightly lucky), but it WOULD NOT protect you from > turning off the machine before writes after it came back to the prompt on > exiting a program. "I'm DONE! SAVE. EXIT. At the prompt? Hit the power > switch!" Agood reason for implementing the "shutdown procedure"! I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, *then* power off. But to be fair, lots of OSs had problems if you turned off without shutting down. It's just that MS-DOS was so rudimentary that it didn't /have/ a shutdown procedure and so users weren't accustomed to this. > Infoworld printed at least a dozen articles of the form of "Users of new > DOS 6 losing data!" > Return to prompt before writing buffers was where the InforWorld "test" > blew it. Billg tried to tell Infoworld that their testing methodology was > flawed, and they misinterpreted that as "intimidation". InfoWorld's > "test" of "disk compression problems" consisted of Word Pervert and Lotus > running macros, Followed by a reboot, In a loop, until the disk had > problems. The ACTUAL cause of the problems was that the reboot was > occurring before the write-cached buffers got written to disk. Microsoft > correctly insisted that the testing was flawed and did not show disk > compression problems; but Microsoft would NOT admit that SMARTDRV was, > indeed, damaging the test data, and causing the bad results. Fair enough. >> > Correcting that misconfiguration was the change that >> > differentiated MS-DOS 6.20 from 6.00, and "fixed the problems with disk >> > compression". >> MS-DOS 6.0 contained DoubleSpace. >> Then, STAC sued over code stolen from Stacker, and won. > > Correct. > >> Result: MS-DOS 6.1: no disk compression > > Nope. > There was no MS-DOS 6.1 (or 6.10. THAT was PC-DOS 6.10 (with a different > compression). I was certain about this, but upon checking, I discover that you're absolutely right. I do apologise. > The debacle that resulted in free "step-up" from 6.00 to 6.20 was BEFORE > the suit. > > The lawsuit caused the change from 6.20 with compression to 6.21 without > compression. Then 6.22 had a different "non-infringing" compression. Yes indeed. My error. Sorry. > The judge awarded Stac about $100 million, I thought it was more, but hey. It set the company up for years & enabled them to (wisely) get out of the compression market. The snag is that they bought into modem-based remote control software, another market with a limited future. But AIR the STAC founders were quite happy. I think I remember a quote about "we ought to sue Microsoft every day," or something. > but awarded MICROS~1 about $30 > million in their counter-suit. Didn't know that. > Billg said, "I'm having a bad day." Bah. Bastard. >> Then, it was re-implemented with clean code - still a theft of the >> concept, but not the code - as DriveSpace and release in MS-DOS 6.2. > > NO. in 6.22 OK, agreed. My memory from nearly 20y ago is clearly more fallible than I realised. > As to "theft of concept", STAC was NOT the only disk compression product > on the market, nor the first. No, true, it wasn't. There was SuperStor, for instance, which IIRC DR-DOS bundled at one point. Briefly. I never liked it much. There was also one that created a second, shadow compressed drive but left your C drive working. ("SecondDrive"?) That required too much Clue on the part of Lusers & didn't prosper. > NB: There was never a Six point ONE. Nor a six point TWO. It was Six > point TEN, and Six point TWENTY. My meagre inner mathematician shudders at such usage. > MOV AH, 30h > INT 21h > returned 6 in AL and 0Ah or 1.4h in AH > > Microsoft version numbers are an integer "MAJOR" number, a "full stop", > followed by a TWO digit decimal number for "MINOR" number > There WAS a DOS "Four point one" (4.01), but never a 4.1 (4.10) Got a reference? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've /never/ heard this usage. >> Then there were 2 minor bug-fixes, 6.21 and 6.22. > You are right in concept, but your version numbers are wrong. Conceded. > 6.00 was the full-blown shopping excursion. Basically 5.00 with lots of > bundled stuff (hence "NEW AND IMPROVED"), including the infringing disk > compression. MS Antivirus, strong-armed out of Central Point. MS Backup, ditto. DoubleSpace, with code stolen from Stacker after Stacker's negotiations over licensing Stacker fell through. (Unlike CP, Stacker wouldn't bend over & take it. So MICROS~1 just kept the source code they already had been inspecting and nicked the bit they wanted. > 6.10 was IBM's PC-DOS version. It had a different compression Indeed. And a different, terrible editor, IIRC. > 6.20 was "to repair problems with disk compression", such as those > reported by Infoworld. The "repair" consisted of reconfiguring SMARTDRV > to have > 1) write-cacheing OFF by default > 2) IF write-cacheing were enabled to not re-arrange writes > 3) IF write-cacheing were enabled, to NOT return to the DOS prompt until > the buffers had been written. Fair enough. > (6.20 may have had some additional trivial bug fixes) > > 6.21 was the one with disk compression REMOVED > > 6.22 was the re-release with "non-infringing" disk compression Now you spell it out, yes, this is as I recall. >> I don't recall SMARTDRV being a major factor. > > Microsoft would never admit that SMARTDRV had problems, but it was > actually the ONLY (or at least PRIMARY) factor! Certainly willing to believe that! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 11:03:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:03:38 -0400 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> On 09/09/2012 11:27 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>> 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, >>>> altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the >>>> buffers). >>> I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. >> >> Careful would not protect you if you had a disk write error during delayed >> writes (you were slightly lucky), but it WOULD NOT protect you from >> turning off the machine before writes after it came back to the prompt on >> exiting a program. "I'm DONE! SAVE. EXIT. At the prompt? Hit the power >> switch!" Agood reason for implementing the "shutdown procedure"! > > I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, > *then* power off. Umm...did MS-DOS hook that interrupt and tell smartdrv to flush its buffers? I don't recall it having done so. If it didn't, that practice did absolutely nothing. (sorry) > But to be fair, lots of OSs had problems if you turned off without > shutting down. It's just that MS-DOS was so rudimentary that it didn't > /have/ a shutdown procedure and so users weren't accustomed to this. Yeah. That's sorta analogous to people preferring IDE because it's "simpler" because it "doesn't need all those silly terminators and stuff". It actually DID need terminators...but they were never implemented due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 11:53:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 09:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, > *then* power off. Still risky with SMARTDRV's write-cacheing! Most people had been taught that on exiting their "productivity software" to wait until they got the4 DOS prompt b3efore shutting off. THAT was the disaster. Many didn't even realize that they should watch the lights on the drives! > But to be fair, lots of OSs had problems if you turned off without > shutting down. It's just that MS-DOS was so rudimentary that it didn't > /have/ a shutdown procedure and so users weren't accustomed to this. Yes. MS-DOS had NO shutdown procedure at all. Even when hard disk arrived (DOS 2.00), "PARK" programs were third party! (could be done in a few dozen bytes) IBM had a park program on their DIAGNOSTICS DISK, but MICROS~1 never pro0vided one. Q: Does shutdown on Windoze9x park the heads? properly? > > but awarded MICROS~1 about $30 > > million in their counter-suit. > Didn't know that. My recollection was $110M and $30M, but that could be completely wrong. (unrefreshed unreliable dynamic RAM) Both companies were a little too free with sharing the trade secrets BEFORE the deal was finalized. > > NO. in 6.22 > OK, agreed. My memory from nearly 20y ago is clearly more fallible > than I realised. It would have helped if I were to have listed all of the intermediate steps originally. > > NB: There was never a Six point ONE. Nor a six point TWO. It was Six > > point TEN, and Six point TWENTY. > My meagre inner mathematician shudders at such usage. As well it should! There's GOTTA BE A BETTER WAY! > > MOV AH, 30h > > INT 21h > > returned 6 in AL and 0Ah or 1.4h in AH > > Microsoft version numbers are an integer "MAJOR" number, a "full stop", > > followed by a TWO digit decimal number for "MINOR" number > > There WAS a DOS "Four point one" (4.01), but never a 4.1 (4.10) > Got a reference? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've /never/ heard this usage. Nothing written, . . . In 1.10, if one were to have run the CHKDKSK from 1.00 it would obligingly "FIX" the disk into an almost irreparable mess, through lack of understanding that there existed a DS disk format that it was unaware of. In 2.00? they started having EVERY DOS program check which version was running and refuse to run if it wasn't the "right" one. (Even if there were no differences that would matter) THAT resulted in the addition of SETVER later on (6.00?) When I encountered that in 2.00 V 2.10, I followed up on it. 2.00 returned 0002 2.10 returned 0A02 2.11 returned 0B02 3.00 0003 3.10 0A03 3.20 1403 3.30 1E03 3.31 1F03 I had a copy of 4.01 that returned 0004! It was widely considered to be "buggy" (although the biggest "bug" was that Nortun fUtilities from earilier days didn't grasp the changes made for >32M drives done in MS-DOS 3.31 (1F03) and PC-DOS 4.00 (0004)) InfoWorld: "New PC-DOS 4 is buggy! Won't run Norton!" (The great motorcycle company should have sued Peter Norton for tradename dilution and defamation (as Beretta sued Chevrolet?) 6.00 0006 6.10 0A06 6.20 1406 6.21 1506 6.22 1606 It held true, up until Win95 (0007) SETVER was for the sole purpose of over-riding trhe version number checking, so that when a program did INT21h,Fn30h, DOS would lie about its age, with a small database stored IN SETVER to keep track of which lie to tell which program! I made my beginning assembly language students write their own VER program. THEIR program had to display a sentence. Go into DEBUG, (and do NOT type in the comments!) A ; enter assembling mode MOV AH, 30 ; set AH to 30h to select function INT 21 ; DOS functions INT 3 ; end program (breakpoint) and display registers ; hit enter to get out of assembling mode G ; RUN (reset IP/PC to 0100 R PC 100 if you want to run it again, INT 3 leaves the registers unchanged.) > > Microsoft would never admit that SMARTDRV had problems, but it was > > actually the ONLY (or at least PRIMARY) factor! > Certainly willing to believe that! If MICROS~1 were to have admitted that SMARTDRV should NOT have such an agressive default configuration (and fixed it with an AUTOEXEC line?), thet would not have had to do the FREE 6.20 "step-up", and then the re-release without disk compression infringement might have been 6.20, . . . Did their stubbornness and the resulting public assumption that disk compression was unreliable and flawed really save them much face? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 11:58:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 09:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120909095447.M52497@shell.lmi.net> > > But to be fair, lots of OSs had problems if you turned off without > > shutting down. It's just that MS-DOS was so rudimentary that it didn't > > /have/ a shutdown procedure and so users weren't accustomed to this. On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah. That's sorta analogous to people preferring IDE because it's > "simpler" because it "doesn't need all those silly terminators and > stuff". It actually DID need terminators...but they were never > implemented due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness. Good analogy! Since the advent of hard disks MS-DOS (2.00 and above) SHOULDA had a shutdown procedure, including a "head park". But, due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness, . . . From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 9 12:51:13 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > Yes. MS-DOS had NO shutdown procedure at all. Even when hard disk > arrived (DOS 2.00), "PARK" programs were third party! (could be done in a > few dozen bytes) IBM had a park program on their DIAGNOSTICS DISK, but > MICROS~1 never pro0vided one. Q: Does shutdown on Windoze9x park the > heads? properly? So, what drives actually need to be 'parked'? My understanding was that if you de-energize the spindle motor and the voice coil that positions the heads and the same time, the heads will have plenty of time to retract and lock before the platters slow down enough for the heads to land. Was it only needed on drives that used stepper motors for head positioning? Either way, in what technology generation and/or time frame did the requirement go away? Alexey From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 13:22:57 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:22:57 -0400 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: it never has.WD uses it today in it's latest technology 3TB drives.rather aggressive head parking feature, if the drive is idle for 5 seconds,it parks the heads.and there's no way to avoid this or alter the behavior,this accounts for a LCC count of about 8k per 24 hour period on average use.which means when you reach the LCC count of 300K, the drive is dead. what a wonderfully stupid idea. > Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 17:51:13 +0000 > From: alexeyt at freeshell.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Yes. MS-DOS had NO shutdown procedure at all. Even when hard disk > > arrived (DOS 2.00), "PARK" programs were third party! (could be done in a > > few dozen bytes) IBM had a park program on their DIAGNOSTICS DISK, but > > MICROS~1 never pro0vided one. Q: Does shutdown on Windoze9x park the > > heads? properly? > > So, what drives actually need to be 'parked'? My understanding was that if > you de-energize the spindle motor and the voice coil that positions the > heads and the same time, the heads will have plenty of time to retract and > lock before the platters slow down enough for the heads to land. Was it > only needed on drives that used stepper motors for head positioning? > Either way, in what technology generation and/or time frame did the > requirement go away? > > Alexey From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 13:23:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 15:23:45 -0300 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01DC4DF3FE6F42CD97F914537548E28C@tababook> > So, what drives actually need to be 'parked'? My understanding was that if > you de-energize the spindle motor and the voice coil that positions the > heads and the same time, the heads will have plenty of time to retract and > lock before the platters slow down enough for the heads to land. Was it > only needed on drives that used stepper motors for head positioning? > Either way, in what technology generation and/or time frame did the > requirement go away? Drives NEED to be parked into a "safe landing" area. But newer drives (e.g.: anything voice-coil based) park automatically the heads when the voice coils are de-energized. Older drivers (with stepper motor used for head positioning) needs to be parked. IIRC, it was in the innermost area of the disk. Greetz, Alexandre Souza From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 14:56:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 12:56:09 -0700 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <504C91E9.19287.C9C7E2@cclist.sydex.com> Certain drives do not "park" the head, but lift them so they do not contact the surface when not spinning. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 15:14:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 13:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120909131144.X58028@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > So, what drives actually need to be 'parked'? My understanding was that if > you de-energize the spindle motor and the voice coil that positions the > heads and the same time, the heads will have plenty of time to retract and > lock before the platters slow down enough for the heads to land. Was it > only needed on drives that used stepper motors for head positioning? > Either way, in what technology generation and/or time frame did the > requirement go away? XT drives generally had stepper motors, and VERY few had a "self park" feature as you describe. Yes, I know that you CAN put some IDE drives on a controller on a 5160, and you could probably build a USB interface, or even ATA. I'm talking about 506/412 interfaced MFM drives as existed in the days of MS-DOS 2.00, and many of which were still around up until Win95 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 9 16:44:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 14:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > it never has.WD uses it today in it's latest technology 3TB > drives.rather aggressive head parking feature, if the drive is idle for > 5 seconds,it parks the heads.and there's no way to avoid this or alter > the behavior,this accounts for a LCC count of about 8k per 24 hour > period on average use.which means when you reach the LCC count of 300K, > the drive is dead. what a wonderfully stupid idea. > Stupid for us. Sells more drives for them. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 9 17:50:59 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:50:59 -0400 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 References: , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2012 2:22 PM Subject: RE: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 "it never has.WD uses it today in it's latest technology 3TB drives.rather aggressive head parking feature, if the drive is idle for 5 seconds,it parks the heads.and there's no way to avoid this or alter the behavior,this accounts for a LCC count of about 8k per 24 hour period on average use.which means when you reach the LCC count of 300K, the drive is dead. what a wonderfully stupid idea." So those drives last an average of 37.5 days of use? From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Sep 9 17:45:52 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 00:45:52 +0200 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120909224552.GA4069@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 12:03:38PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/09/2012 11:27 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>>> 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, > >>>> altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the > >>>> buffers). > >>> I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. > >> > >> Careful would not protect you if you had a disk write error during delayed > >> writes (you were slightly lucky), but it WOULD NOT protect you from > >> turning off the machine before writes after it came back to the prompt on > >> exiting a program. "I'm DONE! SAVE. EXIT. At the prompt? Hit the power > >> switch!" Agood reason for implementing the "shutdown procedure"! > > > > I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, > > *then* power off. > > Umm...did MS-DOS hook that interrupt and tell smartdrv to flush its > buffers? I don't recall it having done so. If it didn't, that practice > did absolutely nothing. (sorry) Not sure about MS-DOS & smartdrv, but IIRC the hyperdsk cache (which I used instead of smartdrv) did indeed hook Ctrl-Alt-Del to flush the caches before reboot. It also some more special hotkeys for things like "flush caches now" or "switch cache to write-through" which where quite handy when testing potentially crashy software - like stuff you've just compiled ;-) > Yeah. That's sorta analogous to people preferring IDE because it's > "simpler" because it "doesn't need all those silly terminators and > stuff". It actually DID need terminators...but they were never > implemented due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness. *urk* Don't remind me of IDE (or PATA as it is called nowadays). There were good reasons why the first machine I bought with my own money was a pure SCSI machine, including optical drives. And I stuck with SCSI until a few years ago when I started using SATA disks for bulk storage and workstation disks. The root disk of the server and $HOME are still sitting on SCSI (and RAID1 at that), though. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 9 18:34:58 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator Message-ID: I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it would just emit "jabber" over and over. Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at vaxen.net Sun Sep 9 18:40:12 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:40:12 -0500 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <504D28DC.1010902@vaxen.net> On 9/9/12 1:22 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > it never has.WD uses it today in it's latest technology 3TB > drives.rather aggressive head parking feature, if the drive is idle > for 5 seconds,it parks the heads.and there's no way to avoid this or > alter the behavior,this accounts for a LCC count of about 8k per 24 > hour period on average use.which means when you reach the LCC count > of 300K, the drive is dead. what a wonderfully stupid idea. Citations, please. Doc From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 20:00:59 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 21:00:59 -0400 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <504D28DC.1010902@vaxen.net> References: , , , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <504D28DC.1010902@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Start by googling "WD30EZRX" which is the latest model green 3TB drive from WD right off the bat you'll see some links talking about the problem I'm referring to,which btw made me decide to stay away from it... here's some example links: http://koitsu.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/wd30ezrx-and-aggressive-head-parking/ http://community.wdc.com/t5/Desktop-Portable-Drives/WD30EZRX-Load-unload-very-high-bad-problem-it-seems/td-p/369511 the second one has some examples of exactly what I was talking about, high LCC counts.once you reach the drive limit, there goes your drive (or at least your warranty) which to me is the same thing. seems the only way around it would be to keep the drive heads busy, keep them from being idle for more than 5 seconds,which is not actually a solution at all... > Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:40:12 -0500 > From: doc at vaxen.net > To: > Subject: Re: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 > > On 9/9/12 1:22 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > it never has.WD uses it today in it's latest technology 3TB > > drives.rather aggressive head parking feature, if the drive is idle > > for 5 seconds,it parks the heads.and there's no way to avoid this or > > alter the behavior,this accounts for a LCC count of about 8k per 24 > > hour period on average use.which means when you reach the LCC count > > of 300K, the drive is dead. what a wonderfully stupid idea. > > > Citations, please. > > > Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 9 20:22:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 18:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Sep 9, 12 04:34:58 pm" Message-ID: <201209100122.q8A1MQRr17694864@floodgap.com> > I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of > DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly > interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, > scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of > each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it > would just emit "jabber" over and over. > > Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits > on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. There was something called travesty that did something similar. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm in Pittsburgh. Why am I here? -- Harold Urey, Nobel laureate ----------- From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 9 20:41:02 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:41:02 -0700 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <504D28DC.1010902@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <504D452E.100@jwsss.com> On 9/9/2012 6:00 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > LCC count > > >of 300K, t The reference I found referred to 2 1/2 inch laptop drives as being kaput with this cycle count. Other references said 600k. I have not found anywhere that says the drive says kaput with the count, just that the s.m.a.r.t. monitoring software flags it as a problem when it goes up. Anyone have any WD postings on the problem yet, perhaps firmware release notes for the affected drives might change the problem? Jim From earl at retrobits.com Fri Sep 7 16:07:09 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 14:07:09 -0700 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away In-Reply-To: References: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526A@server1.RealTime.local> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I would rather a complete machine was not parted out, not even an LA36 :-) > > I sent Corey a message indicating my interest in the unit - I've been actively looking for a DECWriter, and live in Portland. Hopefully, my e-mail got in the queue soon enough :-) Very much hope to have a DECWriter at some point to connect up to my PDP-11. - Earl From cool1 at thecoolbears.org Sat Sep 8 23:24:05 2012 From: cool1 at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 21:24:05 -0700 Subject: Reading Floppies Message-ID: Hey Everybody, Is there anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area that could create images of three 5.25" floppies for me? I think that they are 720k with 256 byte sectors, but I'm not sure. In any case, I've not been able to read them so far. From concad at wwt.net Sun Sep 9 10:30:15 2012 From: concad at wwt.net (concad) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:30:15 -0500 Subject: NEC APC 8" computer Message-ID: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> Hello, Found an old post. We have one with all software but no user manual. Do you know if any exist on PDF? Regards, Jerry From corey at electricware.com Mon Sep 10 01:04:01 2012 From: corey at electricware.com (Corey Anderson) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:04:01 -0700 Subject: DECWriter II LA36 being given away - Update Message-ID: <022D8A64-59AF-448F-98CB-B0BB268910EC@electricware.com> The DECWriter II has been picked up. Thanks to all who replied. There were 5 replies which makes me glad I saved it from being thrown away. Thanks, Corey. From Gary at realtimecomp.com Mon Sep 10 07:42:33 2012 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:42:33 -0400 Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away References: Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526E@server1.RealTime.local> ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Tony Duell Sent: Fri 9/7/2012 5:15 PM Subject: Re: DECwriter II LA36 being given away >> I'm looking for a couple of keys for mine, If you end up parting it out, c= >> ould I get the R and X keys from it? >I would rather a complete machine was not parted out, not even an LA36 :-) > >Somewhere I have a lot of LA36 bits. I probably have a keyboard PCBm adn >could remove keycaps if you cna't get them any other waye. Aren't they >the same as VT100 keycpas? The keyboard is much the same design. I agree, and would not wish him to part one out. However, if the alternative is that he's going to send it to the scrapper.... Also, I don't believe the key caps are the same as the VT-100. If you get a chance, and have a spare KBD assembly, I'd be interested! Gary From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 10 08:12:00 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 06:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <201209100122.q8A1MQRr17694864@floodgap.com> References: <201209100122.q8A1MQRr17694864@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of >> DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly >> interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, >> scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of >> each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it >> would just emit "jabber" over and over. >> >> Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits >> on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. > > There was something called travesty that did something similar. Rent a teenager with a cell phone. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 08:36:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:36:39 +0100 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 9 September 2012 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/09/2012 11:27 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>>>> 3.10 also installed SMARTDRV, (misconfigured to enable write cacheing, >>>>> altered write sequence, and return to DOS prompt without first writing the >>>>> buffers). >>>> I was always careful, trained my clients to be, and never had a problem. >>> >>> Careful would not protect you if you had a disk write error during delayed >>> writes (you were slightly lucky), but it WOULD NOT protect you from >>> turning off the machine before writes after it came back to the prompt on >>> exiting a program. "I'm DONE! SAVE. EXIT. At the prompt? Hit the power >>> switch!" Agood reason for implementing the "shutdown procedure"! >> >> I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, >> *then* power off. > > Umm...did MS-DOS hook that interrupt and tell smartdrv to flush its > buffers? I don't recall it having done so. If it didn't, that practice > did absolutely nothing. (sorry) AFAIK, yes. I believe I found the tip in a magazine somewhere, there being no WWW in those days. If you hit C-A-D there would sometimes be a brief pause and a spurt of disk activity, /then/ the PC would reboot. Before MS-DOS 5, IBM also used to include a disk cache driver for DOS with some of the PS/2s. It was documented, but not much or well. It was a small .SYS driver to be loaded in CONFIG.SYS and it gave a /very/ significant boost in performance. Great in the era of 286s and 386s running DOS 3.3 or 4.01, with 1MB or so of RAM and no use for it without expensive 3rd party utilities such as QEMM. IIRC the IBM cache actually displayed a message about flushing buffers if you pressed C-A-D at the DOS prompt. Many years later, running a VAX network in the mid-1990s, I was amazed to discover that VMS did not include a disk cache. It was a /seriously/ expensive extra - thousands of pounds - but batch performance went through the roof when I tried a time-limited demo of one. We bought it PDQ. > Yeah. That's sorta analogous to people preferring IDE because it's > "simpler" because it "doesn't need all those silly terminators and > stuff". It actually DID need terminators...but they were never > implemented due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness. Terminators on IDE? Really? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 08:40:12 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:40:12 +0100 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <20120909085549.F52497@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 9 September 2012 17:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 9 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> I taught people to do Ctrl-Alt-Del and wait for the BIOS screen, >> *then* power off. > > Still risky with SMARTDRV's write-cacheing! > Most people had been taught that on exiting their "productivity software" > to wait until they got the4 DOS prompt b3efore shutting off. THAT was > the disaster. Many didn't even realize that they should watch the lights > on the drives! True. > Yes. MS-DOS had NO shutdown procedure at all. Even when hard disk > arrived (DOS 2.00), "PARK" programs were third party! (could be done in a > few dozen bytes) IBM had a park program on their DIAGNOSTICS DISK, but > MICROS~1 never pro0vided one. Q: Does shutdown on Windoze9x park the > heads? properly? The thing that bemused me, when I learned about it, was PARK programs that ran /and then exited./ Once it quit, if it re-displayed a DOS prompt, then assuming you had the bog-standard DOS prompt of $p$g, it displayed, say, C:\DOS> - and that itself would cause a disk access, undoing the Park operation! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 09:08:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:08:45 -0400 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7F178B6F-058B-49E5-A4E0-A5497025FD54@gmail.com> On Sep 10, 2012, at 9:36 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Terminators on IDE? Really? Certainly. It's in the ANSI standard. It works "well enough" without them, especially considering the limited length of a typical IDE cable, but even at that length there are transmission line effects and term resistors would certainly be ideal. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 10 09:25:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209101425.KAA27171@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [IDE] actually DID need terminators... I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had terminators. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 10:38:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:38:57 -0400 Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: <201209101425.KAA27171@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> <201209101425.KAA27171@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <504E0991.3020707@neurotica.com> On 09/10/2012 10:25 AM, Mouse wrote: >> [IDE] actually DID need terminators... > > I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the > IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had > terminators. Me neither. The definition of "need" here is that, electrically, they are required by the design, but the designers, either due to cheapness, cluelessness, or both, omitted them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 10:40:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:40:28 -0400 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: <20120909224552.GA4069@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> <20120909224552.GA4069@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <504E09EC.5040902@neurotica.com> On 09/09/2012 06:45 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> Yeah. That's sorta analogous to people preferring IDE because it's >> "simpler" because it "doesn't need all those silly terminators and >> stuff". It actually DID need terminators...but they were never >> implemented due to a stellar combination of cheapness and cluelessness. > > *urk* Yup. > Don't remind me of IDE (or PATA as it is called nowadays). There were good > reasons why the first machine I bought with my own money was a pure SCSI > machine, including optical drives. And I stuck with SCSI until a few years > ago when I started using SATA disks for bulk storage and workstation disks. Same here mostly. > The root disk of the server and $HOME are still sitting on SCSI (and RAID1 > at that), though. All FibreChannel here on the serious machines. SATA on the desktops. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 10:47:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:47:51 -0400 Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: <504E0991.3020707@neurotica.com> References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> <201209101425.KAA27171@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504E0991.3020707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20ED6C1D-1928-41A9-944B-613C10CF30C1@gmail.com> On Sep 10, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/10/2012 10:25 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> [IDE] actually DID need terminators... >> >> I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the >> IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had >> terminators. > > Me neither. The definition of "need" here is that, electrically, they > are required by the design, but the designers, either due to cheapness, > cluelessness, or both, omitted them. It's probably worth clarifying that the ANSI spec calls for termination (not necessarily discrete terminators). One ordinarily needs discrete terminators, or an on-drive workalike as implemented in many SCSI drives, in a bus because you don't want every device providing termination (besides dragging down the bus, you'll still be throwing the impedance off and so will get reflections anyway). In practice, most ATA cables are short enough that it almost doesn't matter because the standard only supports two drives per cable; SCSI is, obviously, a very different case. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 10:48:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120910084551.P87040@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 Sep 2012, David Coolbear wrote: > Is there anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area that could create images of > three 5.25" floppies for me? I think that they are 720k with 256 byte > sectors, but I'm not sure. In any case, I've not been able to read them so > far. 1) Do you know what computer created them? 2) FM? MFM? GCR? (Sirius/Victor 9000?) 3) What have you triesd so far? What messages do you get? The difference between "General Failure" and "Sector Not Found" IS significant. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Sep 10 11:17:31 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:17:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Century Data Systems binders available Message-ID: <1347293851.4641.YahooMailNeo@web133103.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, did some cleaning this weekend and it turned out that I had some duplicates of CDS Trident Series disk drive binders. Contact me, if you're interested in them, I give them away. For pick-up or I can send them, if you pay the shipping costs. I'm located in Germany. documents list: 76200-202 : Models T200 & T300: Installation & Operation 76200-400?: Models T200 & T300: Field Parts Catalog 76205-005 Rev3?: Models T25, T50, T80 Field Parts Catalog 76203-101 Rev1: Model T2000B: Exerciser Technical Manual Model T80 :schematics & logic, book 1/2 Model T300 :complete schematics & logic (twice of this one are available) Please contact me off-list. Kind regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/? From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Sep 10 11:31:35 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:31:35 -0500 Subject: Why 'park' drive heads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> > From: Alexey Toptygin > So, what drives actually need to be 'parked'? My understanding was that if > you de-energize the spindle motor and the voice coil that positions the > heads and the same time, the heads will have plenty of time to retract and > lock before the platters slow down enough for the heads to land. Was it > only needed on drives that used stepper motors for head positioning? > Either way, in what technology generation and/or time frame did the > requirement go away? > Most drives today either have springs, aerodynamic forcers (wings) or extract energy from the spindle motor to send the heads to the park position. Still, landing the heads on the platters is a lot harder on them that lifting the heads like in the "old days". I've seen plenty of drives where the heads were WELDED to the platters by old head lube that had either degraded over time or spread from the landing zone to the rest of the platter. Not sure if they are still using that landing zone lube or not. Anyway, all drives that are supposed to be parked can be assumed to handle it autonomously when power is removed, for nearly the last 20 years. Jon From chrise at pobox.com Mon Sep 10 11:37:08 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:37:08 -0500 Subject: cctalk delay? Message-ID: <20120910163708.GC21592@n0jcf.net> Curious what causes a several day delay in mail getting out of classicmp.org? I typically see people's replies to postings other have made a day or more before I see the original posting. Postings about gear for sale or trade show up long after the gear is gone. What causes the bottleneck? How do some people see postings and are able to reply to them while some of us incur the delay? One example, Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (huey.classiccmp.org [209.145.140.19]) by azure.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71DCC40A3E8; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 08:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q8ACxGmi065486; Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:59:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org) Received: from billy.ezwind.net (host-209-145-140-29.ezwind.net [209.145.140.29] (may be forged)) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id q88MpUSX042100 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 17:51:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mc68010 at gmail.com) Received: from mail-pz0-f51.google.com (mail-pz0-f51.google.com [209.85.210.51]) by billy.ezwind.net (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id q88MpNgW039919 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2012 17:51:29 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mc68010 at gmail.com) Received: by dajt11 with SMTP id t11so765659daj.38 for ; Sat, 08 Sep 2012 15:51:23 -0700 (PDT) The mail was received at huey.classiccmp.org on Sat, 8 Sep 2012 17:51:30 -0500 (CDT) but then didn't move to the next step at huey until Mon, 10 Sep 2012 07:59:16 -0500 (CDT) Not intending to bash anyone or anything here-- just wanting to understand the issue. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:36:55 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:36:55 +0000 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1868771185-1347298617-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537845941-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> I'm not sure about the one you're referring to specifically but there was one called jabberwock. Chatterbotcollection.com has a large list of historical bots but I've rarely found the links to be current or alive unfortunately. It does have a listing called jabber btw. Anything else you recall about it? Any graphics at all? Did it like to gossip and spread rumors (Racter). My personal favorite from the dos days was the first Alice (dos). I'm fairly sure it was also Richard Wallace who wrote it but am having a predictably hard time finding that right now. -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 16:34:58 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it would just emit "jabber" over and over. Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 12:40:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 10:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads In-Reply-To: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> References: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > Anyway, all drives that are supposed to be parked can be assumed to handle > it autonomously when power is removed, for nearly the last 20 years. A very DANGEROUS assumption. My stuff is older than that. Hell, I have stuff in the back of my refrigerator older than that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Sep 10 13:08:07 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:08:07 -0400 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C4E7C55-BDEA-41ED-B3EB-857BC95C3479@me.com> Any chance it was jabberwacky? http://www.jabberwacky.com/ -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-09, at 7:34 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it would just emit "jabber" over and over. > > Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 10 13:13:01 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <6C4E7C55-BDEA-41ED-B3EB-857BC95C3479@me.com> References: <6C4E7C55-BDEA-41ED-B3EB-857BC95C3479@me.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday >> of DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly >> interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like >> novels, scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how >> much of each input file made it to the output. When all were set to >> zero, it would just emit "jabber" over and over. >> >> Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false >> hits on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. > Any chance it was jabberwacky? > > http://www.jabberwacky.com/ No. It didn't engage in conversation. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 10 13:21:58 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <1868771185-1347298617-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537845941-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1868771185-1347298617-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1537845941-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I'm not sure about the one you're referring to specifically but there > was one called jabberwock. Chatterbotcollection.com has a large list of > historical bots but I've rarely found the links to be current or alive > unfortunately. It does have a listing called jabber btw. > > Anything else you recall about it? Any graphics at all? Did it like to > gossip and spread rumors (Racter). My personal favorite from the dos > days was the first Alice (dos). I'm fairly sure it was also Richard > Wallace who wrote it but am having a predictably hard time finding that > right now. The basic patter of this program was to ingest text, mix it up, and emit something that sounds like the original, but turned into a word salad. Using a Shakespeare play and something from Ian Flemming as input files would result in stuff that looks like a Shakespearean spy thriller to varying degrees depending on how you set the input proportions. It was all in text mode, though with some graphical characters for borders and such. There was a large section in the middle bottom where the output was printed. At the top were readouts of the input filenames and controls for sentence length and proportions to be taken from each input file. I found the webpage of "Jabberwock", which is from the right time period, but instead emits nonsense words. The actual zipfile and source are 404-not-found. My last resort for tracking this down appears to be a CD containing a backup of an old BBS that went down in 1996 called DaWarren. That's where I originally got the program. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 10 13:21:18 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:21:18 -0500 Subject: Hard-drive diagnostic program In-Reply-To: <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201209050321.q853KwAN024230@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <50480552.7040803@verizon.net> <201209071622.q87GMV0i010597@billy.ezwind.net> <5049C34D.1500.5F3A8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201209101824.q8AINud7078037@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:50 AM 9/7/2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Is my mistrust merely paranoia or am I being prudent? Prudent, I'd say. The other day I was surprised to see that WD's enterprise-class 500 GB drives with better specs and a five-year warranty were only roughly twice the price of consumer drives (~$70 vs. ~$120) - John From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Sep 10 13:25:36 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:25:36 -0400 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: <6C4E7C55-BDEA-41ED-B3EB-857BC95C3479@me.com> Message-ID: It sounds like something that used a Markov chain algorithm. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-10, at 2:13 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > >>> I'm trying to remember and locate a chatterbot program from the heyday of DOS. I think it was called "jabber". What made it particularly interesting is that you could feed three text files of stuff (like novels, scientific papers, etc) and then control the proportions of how much of each input file made it to the output. When all were set to zero, it would just emit "jabber" over and over. >>> >>> Google isn't particularly helpful in finding this. I'm getting false hits on the Jabber IM protocol and denial of service attacks. > >> Any chance it was jabberwacky? >> >> http://www.jabberwacky.com/ > > No. It didn't engage in conversation. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Sep 10 13:32:12 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:32:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads In-Reply-To: <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> References: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Jon Elson wrote: >> Anyway, all drives that are supposed to be parked can be assumed to handle >> it autonomously when power is removed, for nearly the last 20 years. > > A very DANGEROUS assumption. > > My stuff is older than that. > Hell, I have stuff in the back of my refrigerator older than that. OK, but that takes us back to my original question: how do you KNOW if a drive needs to be parked? Are all voice-coil drives self-parking? Conversely, do all stepper-positioner drives need to be parked manually? Alexey From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 13:36:58 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:36:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC 8" computer In-Reply-To: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> References: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> Message-ID: <1347302218.34479.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi, The only PDF's I know are here. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/APC/ I have not done anything with mine. still looking for a keyboard. - Jerry ----- Original Message ---- From: concad To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, September 10, 2012 5:49:22 AM Subject: NEC APC 8" computer Hello, Found an old post. We have one with all software but no user manual. Do you know if any exist on PDF? Regards, Jerry From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 13:37:14 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC 8" computer In-Reply-To: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> References: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> Message-ID: <1347302234.11435.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> you can google it. I have a couple of manuals already scanned. I need to find them. Where are you located? Do you plan on keeping it? ________________________________ From: concad To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 11:30 AM Subject: NEC APC 8" computer Hello, Found an old post.? We have one with all software but no user manual.? Do you know if any exist on PDF? Regards, Jerry From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 10 13:39:42 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:39:42 -0600 Subject: old stuff (was Re: Why 'park' drive heads) In-Reply-To: <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> References: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <504E33EE.2020409@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Hell, I have stuff in the back of my refrigerator older than that. Yes, and it probably considers *you* to be a science experiment. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 14:02:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:02:55 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac diagnostics? Message-ID: <17B14607-6C6D-4872-84C4-683D0622D822@gmail.com> Hello all, I have a Quadra 700 which I've mentioned before which is in a poor state. I've finally gotten it to power on with a replaced power supply, but it dies with the chimes of death at various points before and after the boot chime; it never appears to initialize the video. I'm aware that the Q700 is quite reliant on the monitor sense pins, so I'm using an Apple 12" RGB monitor that I've verified working on an Apple IIgs. Since I can't see any video (there is no activity on any of the pins on the monitor port, not even sync pins), I'm wondering if there's another diagnostic tool that can be used aside from building something to hook into the '040 PDS and attach to a logic analyzer. I suppose it would be too much to hope that it can be made to spit something out on a serial port? The fact that the chimes come at different points in the process, and that it seems to change when I poke things on the board, leads me to believe it may be beyond help, but if there's something simple I can do to check it out, I'd be glad to. I've already tried swapping out for a known-good '040 and removed all the RAM (so it runs on internal RAM) to no avail. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 14:05:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC 8" computer In-Reply-To: <1347302218.34479.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> <1347302218.34479.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347303942.67193.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Jerry Wright Hi, The only PDF's I know are here.? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/APC/ I have not done anything with mine. still looking for a keyboard. - Jerry ?I do have a spare keyboard. You still didn't tell me where you were located. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:25:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads In-Reply-To: References: <504E15E7.5060000@pico-systems.com> <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120910122341.R92830@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > OK, but that takes us back to my original question: how do you KNOW if a > drive needs to be parked? Never sure without knowing the specific drive. > Are all voice-coil drives self-parking? probably MOST. > Conversely, do all stepper-positioner drives need to be parked manually? MOST. I've been told that there were SOME (not the ones that I've had) that had mechanisms for self-parking. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:03:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:03:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECWriter II LA36 being given away - Update In-Reply-To: <022D8A64-59AF-448F-98CB-B0BB268910EC@electricware.com> from "Corey Anderson" at Sep 9, 12 11:04:01 pm Message-ID: > > > The DECWriter II has been picked up. Thanks to all who replied. > There were 5 replies which makes me glad I saved it from being > thrown away. Incidnetally, talking of LA36s, there is one bit of rather poor design in them IMHO. There is no switch/sensor to detelct the 'home' position of the carriage. Instead there is a physical stop that stops the carriage moving any further. When the carrage hits the stop, it salls the motor. The electroncs notices a lack of pulses from the otpical shaft encoder and knows it's got to the home ppsition. The problem is that the plastic key in the drive sprocket sheers off. Then the motor dosesn't stall, it rotrates slowly with the sprocket slipping on the shaft. So thge electronics doesn't think it's got to the home psotion, it keeps the motor turning. But having the sproket slipping in a much heavier load than jsut moving the cariage, so the motor overheats. The insulation burns off the wire, you get shorted turns, in the end the carriage motor fuse blows. Rewindign the motor is not that difficult, but it's still a pain to have to do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:06:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:06:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: DECwriter II LA36 being given away In-Reply-To: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C526E@server1.RealTime.local> from "Gary L. Messick" at Sep 10, 12 08:42:33 am Message-ID: > I agree, and would not wish him to part one out. However, if the alternati= > ve is that he's going to send it to the scrapper.... Sure, and in the latter case it is better to part it out. However, I am pleased to read that this LA36 seems to have foudn a good home. > > Also, I don't believe the key caps are the same as the VT-100. If you get = > a chance, and have a spare KBD assembly, I'd be interested! I may be thinking of the LA100 keyboard.... I do have a number of LA36 bits (from oen that was parted out...) I may well have the keyboard. I will have to go digging. Do you need the whole PCB or just a couple of keycaps? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:18:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:18:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: <201209101425.KAA27171@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 10, 12 10:25:58 am Message-ID: > > > [IDE] actually DID need terminators... > > I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the > IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had > terminators. Where have you managed to find the schematics for IDE drives (seriously, I am lookiing for them)? My point being that while there may not be resistor packs for the user to fit/remove (as with SCSI and 5.25" floppy drives) ,there may well be 'rather too high' termination resisotrs that have some effect and which can be left in-circuit for any configuration (after all, an IDE ssytem is a controller and one or 2 trives, there are really ony 2 valid comfigurations), like 3.5" drives. Yes, 3.5" drives normally have soldered-in 1k termination resisotrs. Not ideal, but better than nothing, and most users never bother with them. So without seeing the scheamtics for the drvies, I don't see you can say there are no terminators. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:22:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:22:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Why 'park' drive heads In-Reply-To: <20120910103844.K90373@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 10, 12 10:40:34 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > > Anyway, all drives that are supposed to be parked can be assumed to handle > > it autonomously when power is removed, for nearly the last 20 years. > > A very DANGEROUS assumption. > > My stuff is older than that. And mine... Some of my older (demountable :-)) hard drives do have auto-parking on power down. With little NiCd batteries which are connected to the positioner coil (via a switc hthat homes when the heads are retracted) wo whip the heads off the disk when the mains fails. > Hell, I have stuff in the back of my refrigerator older than that. Photographic film? -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 14:39:46 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? Message-ID: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> one other question - shouldn't it be relatively easy to write a program that recognizes another IBM pseudo compatible's MS-DOS format? If for instance you wanted to read NEC APC disks on a Canon AS-100. The Leading Edge Model M (fully peecee s/w compatible) tech ref manual states it not only can use quads but 8" drives. I forget the specifics, but it has an 8272/NEC pd765 (so does the NEC APC. Funny that the aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:36:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:36:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Sep 10, 12 11:21:58 am Message-ID: > > The basic patter of this program was to ingest text, mix it up, and emit > something that sounds like the original, but turned into a word salad. > Using a Shakespeare play and something from Ian Flemming as input files > would result in stuff that looks like a Shakespearean spy thriller to > varying degrees depending on how you set the input proportions. I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The word 'Travesty' is coming to mind, but I am not sure why. But I thought that only took one input file and amy a piece of 'similar' text from it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:52:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120910125215.R93439@shell.lmi.net> > > > [IDE] actually DID need terminators... > > I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the > > IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had > > terminators. I think that this may be an example of "can get away with" From abs at absd.org Mon Sep 10 14:53:22 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:53:22 +0100 Subject: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1 In-Reply-To: References: <20120907130036.E96121@shell.lmi.net> <20120908090700.V23554@shell.lmi.net> <504CBDDA.9080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10 September 2012 14:36, Liam Proven wrote: > > Many years later, running a VAX network in the mid-1990s, I was amazed > to discover that VMS did not include a disk cache. It was a > /seriously/ expensive extra - thousands of pounds - but batch > performance went through the roof when I tried a time-limited demo of > one. We bought it PDQ. Mmmm... "prestoserve". Battery backed up ram for speeding up sync disk writes, typically on a DECstation or Sun Sparc box. Handy for general use, but quite awesome for NFS. Of course SGI provided fast NFS servers by just lying to the client and saying sync writes had hit disk as soon as it was in (non backed up) memory cache. That was a *whole* heap of fun at $PREVIOUS_JOB when the O2000 servers decided to panic every few hours due to buggy Fore system ATM drivers - that 1GB of asset data the 300 workstations think was safely written back? Well, I hope you like nulls... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 15:03:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > one other question - shouldn't it be relatively easy to write a program > that recognizes another IBM pseudo compatible's MS-DOS format? If for > instance you wanted to read NEC APC disks on a Canon AS-100. What do you mean by "pseudo compatible"? Such as MS-DOS on a Victor 9000? If you have a rather limited selection, then you could esasily write a program which identifies which one from a short list. For complete unknowns, you'll find that the number of variations is rather large. > The Leading Edge Model M (fully peecee s/w compatible) tech ref manual > states it not only can use quads but 8" drives. I forget the specifics, > but it has an 8272/NEC pd765 (so does the NEC APC. Funny that the > aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). WHICH WD chip? WD did make some that were kinda 765 compatible. But not all. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 10 15:36:36 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> The basic patter of this program was to ingest text, mix it up, and emit >> something that sounds like the original, but turned into a word salad. >> Using a Shakespeare play and something from Ian Flemming as input files >> would result in stuff that looks like a Shakespearean spy thriller to >> varying degrees depending on how you set the input proportions. > > I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The word > 'Travesty' is coming to mind, but I am not sure why. But I thought that > only took one input file and amy a piece of 'similar' text from it. That would be interesting to dig up. I managed to dig up some old archives of DaWarren and found the chatterbot I was looking for. It's called "Babble" and is now available at http://661.org/tmp/babble.zip. I'd love to find some source code for reimplementing this. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 15:53:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote: > That would be interesting to dig up. I managed to dig up some old > archives of DaWarren and found the chatterbot I was looking for. It's > called "Babble" and is now available at http://661.org/tmp/babble.zip. > I'd love to find some source code for reimplementing this. ELIZA is relatively easy to find. Even Wikipedia has some links. I once heard that some CS students at another college wrote a program to mimic a schizophrenic, to talk to ELIZA. S'posedly non computer people in the field considered the transcripts of sessions to be competent therapy. But, alas, I can't find any citations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 15:53:25 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC 8" computer In-Reply-To: <1347303942.67193.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> <1347302218.34479.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347303942.67193.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347310405.6524.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I;m in the Seattle Wa. USA area - Jerry ----- Original Message ---- From: Chris Tofu To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, September 10, 2012 12:08:29 PM Subject: Re: NEC APC 8" computer From: Jerry Wright Hi, The only PDF's I know are here. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/nec/APC/ I have not done anything with mine. still looking for a keyboard. - Jerry I do have a spare keyboard. You still didn't tell me where you were located. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 15:57:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 13:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 4:03 PM Subject: Re: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > one other question - shouldn't it be relatively easy to write a program > that recognizes another IBM pseudo compatible's MS-DOS format? If for > instance you wanted to read NEC APC disks on a Canon AS-100. What do you mean by "pseudo compatible"? C: Various machines from the early-mid 80s which ran MS-DOS (their own version), but little else in the way of IBM s/w. Ones where the salesmen lied through their teeth about the machine's compatibility. Although many did eventually sport oem or aftermarket add ons that greatly increased their IBM s/w compatibility. Those which come to mind are the TI Pro, Wang, Rainbow, NEC APC III. The Epson QX-10 (Z80) had the Titan board, but I'm not sure how compatible the QX-16 was stock. Such as MS-DOS on a Victor 9000? C: I gave 2 examples. If you have a rather limited selection, then you could esasily write a program which identifies which one from a short list. C: Ok, I have a bunch of NEC APC I disks. I hope to read them (hope springs eternal). I have little more then a little hope that they still work. I'd like to read them on my Canon AS-100. I have NO docs for the AS-100, and little more then boiler plate for the APC. ?C: I also have an IBM DisplayWriter w/8" drives, but the prospects that presents are all scary. I have an Intel MDS drive cabinet, that has a rather codependent relationship w/the 2 8" drives. I was astounded and nauseated when I actually bothered to look. For complete unknowns, you'll find that the number of variations is rather large. C: The number of different formats? So, and although my selection is quite small, I guess it isn't trivial for a program to randomly search for format marks. I would have thought otherwise. But what do I know. > The Leading Edge Model M (fully peecee s/w compatible) tech ref manual > states it not only can use quads but 8" drives. I forget the specifics, > but it has an 8272/NEC pd765 (so does the NEC APC. Funny that the > aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). WHICH WD chip? C: I don't remember exactly, Either the 1770, 1771, or 1772 (I think there was a 1772, no?). WD did make some that were kinda 765 compatible. But not all. C: To God be the glory. But I would have thought though that the 765 would have been the choice for 5 1/4" drives, and the WD family for larger ones. But again there's yet another exhibition of how little I know. ?I just don't understand why I can never get an answer to my original question... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 10 16:06:17 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201209102106.RAA29645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I once heard that some CS students at another college wrote a program > to mimic a schizophrenic, to talk to ELIZA. This sounds familiar, and the name that comes to mind is Parry (I think Parry was paranoid as well as, or perhaps instead of, schizophrenic). Check Douglas Hofstadter's writings - _Metamagical Themas_ strikes me as the most likely. Might be in _G?del, Escher, Bach_, or maybe even _The Mind's I_, but I think not. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Sep 10 16:12:53 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:12:53 -0400 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If it is using a Markov chain, you can get some code here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V_Shaney The algorithm has been implemented for generating text in many languages. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-10, at 4:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> The basic patter of this program was to ingest text, mix it up, and emit >>> something that sounds like the original, but turned into a word salad. >>> Using a Shakespeare play and something from Ian Flemming as input files >>> would result in stuff that looks like a Shakespearean spy thriller to >>> varying degrees depending on how you set the input proportions. >> >> I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The word >> 'Travesty' is coming to mind, but I am not sure why. But I thought that >> only took one input file and amy a piece of 'similar' text from it. > > That would be interesting to dig up. I managed to dig up some old archives of DaWarren and found the chatterbot I was looking for. It's called "Babble" and is now available at http://661.org/tmp/babble.zip. I'd love to find some source code for reimplementing this. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 16:17:49 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC APC 8" computer In-Reply-To: <1347310405.6524.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <504CB607.2090607@wwt.net> <1347302218.34479.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347303942.67193.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347310405.6524.YahooMailRC@web181405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347311869.81342.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> well I need help w/my APC, but in general it's more help then someone is likely to give. No offense, but in the rare event you are an extremely compassionate soul, saintly like, contact me offlist. I would give you the k/b and whatever manuals I got for shipping. I'm in NJ, but I'll be driving out to the midwest in a few weeks. I wish I was going to Seattle, but that's likely only to happen after very positive results in November. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 16:24:02 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:24:02 -0400 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <201209102106.RAA29645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> <201209102106.RAA29645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I once heard that some CS students at another college wrote a program >> to mimic a schizophrenic, to talk to ELIZA. > > This sounds familiar, and the name that comes to mind is Parry (I think > Parry was paranoid as well as, or perhaps instead of, schizophrenic). > Check Douglas Hofstadter's writings - _Metamagical Themas_ strikes me > as the most likely. Might be in _G?del, Escher, Bach_, or maybe even > _The Mind's I_, but I think not. I seem to remember seeing something about Parry talking to Eliza in a late-1970s or early--1980s Creative Computing, but I _was_ reading CC at the same time as I first read _G?del, Escher, Bach_, so if it's in there, I could easily be confused. Somewhere around 1978 or 1979, I was running a BASIC version of Eliza on my PET. We fed it the lyrics to "Officer Krupke" from "West Side Story". It was a hoot ("Why do you say your brother wears a dress?") -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 16:52:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 14:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> What do you mean by "pseudo compatible"? On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Various machines from the early-mid 80s which ran MS-DOS (their own > version), but little else in the way of IBM s/w. Ones where the salesmen > lied through their teeth about the machine's compatibility. Although > many did eventually sport oem or aftermarket add ons that greatly > increased their IBM s/w compatibility. Those which come to mind are the > TI Pro, Wang, Rainbow, NEC APC III. The Epson QX-10 (Z80) had the Titan > board, but I'm not sure how compatible the QX-16 was stock. > > Such as MS-DOS on a Victor 9000? > C: I gave 2 examples. OK, but be aware that many people reserve the word "compatible" for only those machines that are so close that they will run IBM PC software. Some people would list your examples as "NON-compatible MS-DOS machines" And then there are plenty in between, such as the Sanyo, RS model 1000, Toshiba T300, etc. That can run SOME PC software, but not all. There used to be "testing" of levels of compatibility, usually based on stuff that was completely irrelevant, such as would it run "Flight Simulator" or the "5150 ONLY version of XenoCopy" (PCWorld January 1984?) > C: Ok, I have a bunch of NEC APC I disks. I hope to read them (hope > springs eternal). I have little more then a little hope that they still > work. I'd like to read them on my Canon AS-100. I have NO docs for the > AS-100, and little more then boiler plate for the APC. Well, I'd recommend starting by getting code working to read them on an ordinary PC. THEN, once that is working, try to port that code to the Canon, etc. For example, how do you read a sector on the Canon? Does it have an Int13h that is close enough in calling structure? Does it have a similar INT1Eh if you need to change bytes per sector, etc., or will you need to talk directly to the chip? WD 179x chips have a completely different communication than NEC 765 -like chips. The NEC is not too bad. One gotcha is that the 3.5" HD format is done at 360 RPM at 500K bits per second, whereas the stock PC 3.5" drives are 300 RPM. You'll need to do a little work to find compatible 3.5" drives. The 8" disks, 5.25' HD, and 3.5" HD all had identical format! NEC APC, in addition to MS-DOS, ALSO had a CP/M-86, AND a "Stand-alone-BASIC" (similar to the Coco disk format) Last time that I heard from Don Maslin was when he and I collaborated with Sellam to read some NEC APC 8" Stand-alone-BASIC disks. (As far as I know, there is no official name for that format) Don emailed me hex-dumps of the DIRectory tracks and I determined which blocks of the disks to read. >?C: I also have an IBM DisplayWriter w/8" drives, but the prospects that > presents are all scary. I have an Intel MDS drive cabinet, that has a > rather codependent relationship w/the 2 8" drives. I was astounded and > nauseated when I actually bothered to look. > > For complete unknowns, you'll find that the number of variations is > > rather large. > C: The number of different formats? So, and although my selection is > quite small, I guess it isn't trivial for a program to randomly search > for format marks. I would have thought otherwise. But what do I know. I estimate there to be about 2500 different soft sector disk formats. What I did in XenoCopy was to have an option of having ity look at the disk, to rule out all formats with different number of sides, different number of sectors, bytes per sector, etc. Howard Fullmer (Morrow designs) attempted [unsuccessfully] to do automatic format recognition. But, there is nothing stopping you from doing things such as looking where you think directory entries MIGHT be, etc. > > > aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). > > WHICH WD chip? > C: I don't remember exactly, Either the 1770, 1771, or 1772 (I think > there was a 1772, no?). OK, so NOT one of their NEC compatible chips. WD did make some that were kinda 765 compatible. But not all. > C: To God be the glory. But I would have thought though that the 765 > would have been the choice for 5 1/4" drives, and the WD family for > larger ones. But again there's yet another exhibition of how little I > know. WD was the one used in Kaypro, TRS80, and many others. Until IBM PC dominated the market, and people flodded to NEC 765 for compatibility, there hadn't been a clear edge of one V the other. The WD179x can do a few things easily that can't be done (or barely) on the NEC765. Many people prefer it over the NEC765 > ?I just don't understand why I can never get an answer to my original > question... "You have to ask the right question" AND include enough of the details! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Sep 10 16:59:47 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:59:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator Message-ID: <1829237415.1509859.1347314387991.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 20 >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:36:52 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > >I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The word >'Travesty' is coming to mind, but I am not sure why. But I thought that >only took one input file and amy a piece of 'similar' text from it. > >-tony Byte, V9 No12, November 1984. Also at http://www.scribd.com/doc/99613420/Travesty-in-Byte Bob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 17:02:22 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:02:22 -0300 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator References: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> <201209102106.RAA29645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <3719F51EFC01411BB1B3CE9879D00BD8@tababook> Doctor Sbaitso! :oD --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 6:24 PM Subject: Re: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator > On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 5:06 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> I once heard that some CS students at another college wrote a program >>> to mimic a schizophrenic, to talk to ELIZA. >> >> This sounds familiar, and the name that comes to mind is Parry (I think >> Parry was paranoid as well as, or perhaps instead of, schizophrenic). >> Check Douglas Hofstadter's writings - _Metamagical Themas_ strikes me >> as the most likely. Might be in _G?del, Escher, Bach_, or maybe even >> _The Mind's I_, but I think not. > > I seem to remember seeing something about Parry talking to Eliza in a > late-1970s or early--1980s Creative Computing, but I _was_ reading CC > at the same time as I first read _G?del, Escher, Bach_, so if it's in > there, I could easily be confused. > > Somewhere around 1978 or 1979, I was running a BASIC version of Eliza > on my PET. We fed it the lyrics to "Officer Krupke" from "West Side > Story". It was a hoot ("Why do you say your brother wears a dress?") > > -ethan > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 17:16:07 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 15:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin OK, but be aware that many people reserve the word "compatible" for only those machines that are so close that they will run IBM PC software. C: I didn't say "compatible", but "pseudo-compatible". Pseudo kinda means "fake-" or "not really-". C:? Me and Tony use the term. I'm not ready to give him credit for coining the term (I'd have to go over my notes and see when I started using it). I guess you need to be a member of the elite to understand the nuances of such terminology. Some people would list your examples as "NON-compatible MS-DOS machines" C: *sigh* And then there are plenty in between, such as the Sanyo, RS model 1000, Toshiba T300, etc.? That can run SOME PC software, but not all. There used to be "testing" of levels of compatibility, usually based on stuff that was completely irrelevant, such as would it run "Flight Simulator" or the "5150 ONLY version of XenoCopy" (PCWorld January 1984?) C: Yes vendors would pull whatever strings necessary to get certain programs to run, thereby declaring their machine passed the test. ?C: Personally if the dog didn't run StarFlight, it wasn't any good (i.e a fake or pseudo compatible). Ok let the record show that I invented the term "fake compatible" on 9/10/12 at 6:15 pm EST. > C: Ok, I have a bunch of NEC APC I disks. I hope to read them (hope > springs eternal). I have little more then a little hope that they still > work. I'd like to read them on my Canon AS-100. I have NO docs for the > AS-100, and little more then boiler plate for the APC. Well, I'd recommend starting by getting code working to read them on an ordinary PC. C: That's like putting the horse on the cart and pulling it w/my teeth! Understand I don't even know which drives will WORK on a peecee. ? THEN, once that is working, try to port that code to the Canon, etc. C: LOL LOL ?For example, how do you read a sector on the Canon? C: I honestly could not tell you. Does it have an Int13h that is close enough in calling structure? C: Beats me Does it have a similar INT1Eh if you need to change bytes per sector, etc., or will you need to talk directly to the chip?? WD 179x chips have a completely different communication than NEC 765 -like chips. C: That I could have told anyone The NEC is not too bad. One gotcha is that the 3.5" HD format is done at 360 RPM at 500K bits per second, whereas the stock PC 3.5" drives are 300 RPM.? You'll need to do a little work to find compatible 3.5" drives. The 8" disks, 5.25' HD, and 3.5" HD all had identical format! C: I believe I've plugged hd 5 1/4" drives into my Canon though, w/little success. It utilizes both 5" and 8" off the same connector. NEC APC, in addition to MS-DOS, ALSO had a CP/M-86, AND a "Stand-alone-BASIC" (similar to the Coco disk format)? Last time that I heard from Don Maslin was when he and I collaborated with Sellam to read some NEC APC 8" Stand-alone-BASIC disks.? (As far as I know, there is no official name for that format)? Don emailed me hex-dumps of the DIRectory tracks and I determined which blocks of the disks to read. C: somewhere on the order of 10 years ago a guy named Yogi in California won a huge motherload of APC docs for 1$. I mean dozens of manuals, totally unreal. I might have to look him up. C: Wouldn't snooping through the rom code give an indication of where sector marks would be positioned? Or am I again exhibiting a total ignorance of this affair? >?C: I also have an IBM DisplayWriter w/8" drives, but the prospects that > presents are all scary. I have an Intel MDS drive cabinet, that has a > rather codependent relationship w/the 2 8" drives. I was astounded and > nauseated when I actually bothered to look. > > For complete unknowns, you'll find that the number of variations is > > rather large. > C: The number of different formats? So, and although my selection is > quite small, I guess it isn't trivial for a program to randomly search > for format marks. I would have thought otherwise. But what do I know. I estimate there to be about 2500 different soft sector disk formats. What I did in XenoCopy was to have an option of having ity look at the disk, to rule out all formats with different number of sides, different number of sectors, bytes per sector, etc. Howard Fullmer (Morrow designs) attempted [unsuccessfully] to do automatic format recognition. But, there is nothing stopping you from doing things such as looking where you think directory entries MIGHT be, etc. C: I wouldn't know where to look. Eyes are going along w/my knees. > > > aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). > > WHICH WD chip? > C: I don't remember exactly, Either the 1770, 1771, or 1772 (I think > there was a 1772, no?). OK, so NOT one of their NEC compatible chips. WD did make some that were kinda 765 compatible. But not all. > C: To God be the glory. But I would have thought though that the 765 > would have been the choice for 5 1/4" drives, and the WD family for > larger ones. But again there's yet another exhibition of how little I > know. WD was the one used in Kaypro, TRS80, and many others. Until IBM PC dominated the market, and people flodded to NEC 765 for compatibility, there hadn't been a clear edge of one V the other. The WD179x can do a few things easily that can't be done (or barely) on the NEC765.? Many people prefer it over the NEC765 > ?I just don't understand why I can never get an answer to my original > question... "You have to ask the right question" AND include enough of the details! C: I was so sure I did. Perhaps it's unwise to put a question on the subject line. Oi. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred? ? ??? ??? cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 17:20:02 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:20:02 -0400 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <1829237415.1509859.1347314387991.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1829237415.1509859.1347314387991.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 10, 2012 at 5:59 PM, wrote: >>Message: 20 >>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:36:52 +0100 (BST) >>From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> >>I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The word >>'Travesty' is coming to mind > > Byte, V9 No12, November 1984. > > Also at http://www.scribd.com/doc/99613420/Travesty-in-Byte Aieee! PASCAL! My eyes! The goggles do nothing! -ethan From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Sep 10 17:41:16 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 18:41:16 -0400 Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> Pseudo derives from the Greek ??????, (pseudes) which means "lying". So it means exactly fake:) Aristophanes in one of his plays even has a Persian ambassador character named Pseudartabas - "false measure". -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-10, at 6:16 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Fred Cisin > > OK, but be aware that many people reserve the word "compatible" for only > those machines that are so close that they will run IBM PC software. > > C: I didn't say "compatible", but "pseudo-compatible". Pseudo kinda means "fake-" or "not really-". > > From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 10 18:27:27 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:27:27 +0000 Subject: Bill Moggridge died Message-ID: <34699534-1347319648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1838781944-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> It's been in the news this weekend -- Bill Moggridge, credited as the designer of the "clamshell" shape for laptop computers, died. I agree that Moggridge did important work for the Grid Compass, circa 1982. His design may indeed have been the first of its kind, although I'd be curious to see any examples of prior art. But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling the Compass a "laptop" computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital definition of a laptop isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but rather a flat lap-sized computer with its own power source. Compass users had no choice but to plug into wall power. So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's not a laptop. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 18:38:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> Message-ID: <20120910163233.V94612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Pseudo derives from the Greek ??????, (pseudes) which means > "lying". So it means exactly fake:) Aristophanes in one of his plays > even has a Persian ambassador character named Pseudartabas - "false > measure". But, by meaning fake, it could mean "completely not the same", or so good a fake that it's hard to tell the difference from the real thing. A "pseudo IBM XT" would mean a fake XT, like those perfectly infringing Chinese imitations. (sometimes called a "clone") From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 18:47:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <34699534-1347319648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1838781944-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <34699534-1347319648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1838781944-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120910164545.K94612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I agree that Moggridge did important work for the Grid Compass, circa > 1982. His design may indeed have been the first of its kind, although > I'd be curious to see any examples of prior art. Although not exactly the same, Kay's "Dynabook" concept would surely be closely related prior art. > > But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling the Compass a > "laptop" computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital > definition of a laptop isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but rather > a flat lap-sized computer with its own power source. Compass users had > no choice but to plug into wall power. > So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's > not a laptop. That's a reasonable "requirement", but not universally agreed upon. Some people didn't mind sitting with a ton of bricks on their lap and a cord plugged into the wall. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 18:48:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:48:29 -0700 Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <34699534-1347319648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1838781944-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <34699534-1347319648-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1838781944-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <504E19DD.24584.1D62397@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2012 at 23:27, Evan Koblentz wrote: > But, I strongly disagree with all the reports calling the Compass a > "laptop" computer. I don't mean that as mere semantics: a vital > definition of a laptop isn't just a flat lap-sized computer, but > rather a flat lap-sized computer with its own power source. Compass > users had no choice but to plug into wall power. > > So the Compass may have been the first clamshell * computer * but it's > not a laptop. ...and to my recollection, the Compass was the *only* Grid model without a battery option. Note that the early Toshiba plasma laptops also had the same limitation--and Toshiba shamelessly copied the Grid design--and got sued as a result. --Chack From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 18:57:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:57:22 -0700 Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2012 at 12:39, Chris Tofu wrote: > one other question - shouldn't it be relatively easy to write a > program that recognizes another IBM pseudo compatible's MS-DOS format? > If for instance you wanted to read NEC APC disks on a Canon AS-100. The APC (nee N5200) uses the same MS-DOS format that any of the PC98 systems had--regardless of physical media size. That is 3.5, 5.25 and 8" all use the same format--and all are designed for 360 RPM spindle speeds (that's why the 3.5" format is labeled as 1.23MB). Would that IBM have been that savvy. 77x2x8x1024. I even wrote a PeeCee driver for the format decades ago (wander around SIMTEL and you might find it). Remember that any PC98 program that does not restrict itself to the MS-DOS system API will likely fail. The BIOS conventions are different, as are niblets such as hardware ports. Remember that, at one time, the NEC PC98 series had 70% of the Japanese PC market. It was very prevalent in the CNC business, even for machines that were sold into the US market by NEC competitors such as HItachi. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 19:03:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120910164822.I94612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: ? > C: Personally if the dog didn't run StarFlight, it wasn't any good (i.e > a fake or pseudo compatible). Ok let the record show that I invented the > term "fake compatible" on 9/10/12 at 6:15 pm EST. duly noted. Are you sure that you are the first? > C: Ok, I have a bunch of NEC APC I disks. I hope to read them (hope > springs eternal). I have little more then a little hope that they still > work. I'd like to read them on my Canon AS-100. I have NO docs for the > AS-100, and little more then boiler plate for the APC. Well, I'd recommend starting by getting code working to read them on an ordinary PC. C: That's like putting the horse on the cart and pulling it w/my teeth! Understand I don't even know which drives will WORK on a peecee. Yep! Any "ordinary" "standard" (HAH!) 8" drive will work. But, you might need to try a bunch of controllers to find one that's OK. > > ? THEN, once that is working, try to port that code to the > > Canon, etc. > C: LOL LOL > > ?For example, how do you read a sector on the Canon? > C: I honestly could not tell you. > > Does it have an Int13h that is close enough in calling structure? > C: Beats me If you want to write software that runs on the Canon, then working through that would be a place to start. > > Does it have a similar INT1Eh if you need to change bytes per sector, > > etc., or will you need to talk directly to the chip?? WD 179x chips > > have a completely different communication than NEC 765 -like chips. > C: That I could have told anyone Good! Then you've got a start on what you bneed to learn. > > C: I believe I've plugged hd 5 1/4" drives into my Canon though, > > w/little success. It utilizes both 5" and 8" off the same connector. Then you need to work on jumpers. Starting with Drive select. > C: somewhere on the order of 10 years ago a guy named Yogi in California > won a huge motherload of APC docs for 1$. I mean dozens of manuals, > totally unreal. I might have to look him up. Good. Find him. > C: Wouldn't snooping through the rom code give an indication of where > sector marks would be positioned? Or am I again exhibiting a total > ignorance of this affair? No, you're right that it will give you about half of what you need to know. The other half is gonna require looking at sectors on the disk, to determine things such as how many sectors does it have for each copy of the FAT, etc. > > But, there is nothing stopping you from doing things such as looking > > where you think directory entries MIGHT be, etc. C: I wouldn't know where to look. Eyes are going along w/my knees. Start with a hex dump of a formatted disk with nothing on it, and a hex dump of a disk with one file, and a hex dump of a disk with lots of files. > > > aftermarket board/5 1/4" drive set that I have for it uses a WD chip). > > WHICH WD chip? > C: I don't remember exactly, Either the 1770, 1771, or 1772 (I think > there was a 1772, no?). OK, so NOT one of their NEC compatible chips. > ?I just don't understand why I can never get an answer to my original > question... SA 800 All others are just copies of it. (with improvements) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 10 19:13:30 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 17:13:30 -0700 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: <1829237415.1509859.1347314387991.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1829237415.1509859.1347314387991.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120910171330.2bbff2ad@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:59:47 +0000 (UTC) feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > >Message: 20 > >Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:36:52 +0100 (BST) > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > > >I remember an article in Byte about soemthing a bit like this. The > >word 'Travesty' is coming to mind, but I am not sure why. But I > >thought that only took one input file and amy a piece of 'similar' > >text from it. > > > >-tony > > Byte, V9 No12, November 1984. > > Also at http://www.scribd.com/doc/99613420/Travesty-in-Byte That Byte article (and others) spawned a bunch of "Travesty Generators". Type "travesty generator" into Google and you'll find lots of interesting related software... Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 20:54:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:54:53 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel Message-ID: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> As long as we're on the subject, here's an interesting article I saw just today about the performance and data safety aspects of SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel/SCSI disks. http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 It's by Marshall McKusick, who is a man who ought to know his filesystem and disk stuff. For those who don't like going to web articles, it basically boils down to the fact that while SATA is perfectly capable of supporting proper tag queueing, most bottom-dollar drives don't and basically all other higher-end transports (including SAS, FibreChannel, and parallel SCSI) do. There's a lot of other neat stuff in the article, but I thought it might be interesting while we're bashing PATA and giving SATA a "meh" around these parts. - Dave From bear at typewritten.org Mon Sep 10 21:26:43 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:26:43 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac diagnostics? In-Reply-To: <17B14607-6C6D-4872-84C4-683D0622D822@gmail.com> References: <17B14607-6C6D-4872-84C4-683D0622D822@gmail.com> Message-ID: <79B9132B-BB26-4AAF-A117-9FDE4ADC11FE@typewritten.org> On Sep 10, 2012, at 12:02 PM, David Riley wrote: > the Q700 is quite reliant on the monitor sense pins, so I'm using an > Apple 12" RGB monitor that I've verified working on an Apple IIgs. It doesn't matter what the sense pins read; this monitor will never show a display on a Q700. The IIgs outputs a 15kHz horizontal frequency. This display will not sync to any mode the Q700 can output. ok bear. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 10 21:34:15 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 19:34:15 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> On 9/10/12 6:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 > "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." This isn't even true for SCSI disks, much less all the different kinds before that. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 22:12:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:12:15 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac diagnostics? In-Reply-To: <79B9132B-BB26-4AAF-A117-9FDE4ADC11FE@typewritten.org> References: <17B14607-6C6D-4872-84C4-683D0622D822@gmail.com> <79B9132B-BB26-4AAF-A117-9FDE4ADC11FE@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <2569EB8B-6F86-4063-B7AE-B4FE2C7DA240@gmail.com> On Sep 10, 2012, at 10:26 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Sep 10, 2012, at 12:02 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> the Q700 is quite reliant on the monitor sense pins, so I'm using an >> Apple 12" RGB monitor that I've verified working on an Apple IIgs. > > It doesn't matter what the sense pins read; this monitor will never show a display on a Q700. > > The IIgs outputs a 15kHz horizontal frequency. This display will not sync to any mode the Q700 can output. I am braindead: the monitor I'm using is an AppleColor RGB, not the RGB 12". As I said in a private email, I should have remembered that I used this monitor to display my Defender boards specifically because it had a 15 KHz display. *sigh* Apologies for the noise. - Dave From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 10 22:26:05 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 03:26:05 +0000 Subject: Bill Moggridge died Message-ID: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> >>> I'd be curious to see any examples of prior art. >> Although not exactly the same, Kay's "Dynabook" concept would surely be closely related prior art. No, I meant prior art of clamshell designs. If I wanted merely prior art of a laptop computer, then there commercial examples before the Compass, such as the Husky Hunter (1981). Beside, and as you noted, Dynabook is only a concept. Not to insult PARC, but you might as well have cited something from Star Trek. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 22:26:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:26:47 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2012 at 19:34, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/10/12 6:54 PM, David Riley wrote: > > http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 > > > > "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about > 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." > > This isn't even true for SCSI disks, much less all the different kinds > before that. Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . The author's probably never even seen an IBM 1311 or Bryant 4000. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 10 22:33:11 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IDE terminators [Re: Win (or lose) 3.10 (Was: Kaypro PC ? == Micro 1] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209110333.XAA00987@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [IDE] actually DID need terminators... >> I'm not sure what meaning of "need" this is, when, out of all the >> IDE-using systems I've seen, I can't recall even one that had >> terminators. > Where have you managed to find the schematics for IDE drives > (seriously, I am lookiing for them)? Sorry to disappoint you. > My point being that while there may not be resistor packs for the > user to fit/remove (as with SCSI and 5.25" floppy drives) ,there may > well be 'rather too high' termination resisotrs [...] There may be, for all I know. I was speaking of `terminator' as a separate physical object, not just anything with a similar electrical effect. I'd use the same terminology even for (eg) SCSI; "no, there's no terminator because I enabled on-disk termination on that drive" is a sensical statement, IMO - and, in this case, the context (users seeing IDE as not needing those pesky terminators) makes that interpretation even more reasonable, I think. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 22:42:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:42:10 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> On Sep 10, 2012, at 11:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Sep 2012 at 19:34, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 9/10/12 6:54 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 >>> >> >> "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about >> 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." >> >> This isn't even true for SCSI disks, much less all the different kinds >> before that. > > Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. > 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . > > The author's probably never even seen an IBM 1311 or Bryant 4000. I mean, he wrote Berkeley FFS, so I suppose he should have some idea that there were other sector sizes. I'd be willing to chalk it up to a brain fart, though it seems like a big oversight. I hadn't even noticed that particular line; I think the rest of the article is fairly informative. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 10 22:45:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Parry [Re: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator] In-Reply-To: <3719F51EFC01411BB1B3CE9879D00BD8@tababook> References: <20120910134825.S94612@shell.lmi.net> <201209102106.RAA29645@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <3719F51EFC01411BB1B3CE9879D00BD8@tababook> Message-ID: <201209110345.XAA01049@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> This sounds familiar, and the name that comes to mind is Parry (I >>> think Parry was paranoid as well as, or perhaps instead of, >>> schizophrenic). Check Douglas Hofstadter's writings - _Metamagical >>> Themas_ strikes me as the most likely. Might be in _G?del, Escher, >>> Bach_, or maybe even _The Mind's I_, but I think not. >> I seem to remember seeing something about Parry talking to Eliza in >> a late-1970s or early--1980s Creative Computing, but I _was_ reading >> CC at the same time as I first read _G?del, Escher, Bach_, so if >> it's in there, I could easily be confused. I just dug out my copy. It's in GEB (possibly among other places). Once in _Chapter X: Levels of Description, and Computer Systems_; once in _Chapter XVIII: Artificial Intelligence: Retrospects_; and once, briefly, in _Chapter XIX: Artificial Intelligence: Prospects_. Look up "PARRY" in the index. The Parry-meets-Doctor (it was described as being Doctor, a descendent of Eliza, not Eliza itself) meeting is described, to the extent that it is, in the second of those three. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 22:46:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 20:46:30 -0700 Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <504E51A6.18220.2B00CDE@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2012 at 3:26, Evan Koblentz wrote: > If I wanted merely prior art of a laptop computer, then there > commercial examples before the Compass, such as the Husky Hunter > (1981). > > Beside, and as you noted, Dynabook is only a concept. Not to insult > PARC, but you might as well have cited something from Star Trek. I believe that the basis of Tandy's lawsuit against Toshiba was the nature of the hinge, not the idea of a clamshell laptop per se. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 23:00:04 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:00:04 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. > 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . > > The author's probably never even seen an IBM 1311 or Bryant 4000. Or most of IBM's big disks until the 1990s. CKD "sectors" are variable length. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 23:05:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120910210233.M3970@shell.lmi.net> > >>> I'd be curious to see any examples of prior art. > >> Although not exactly the same, Kay's "Dynabook" concept would surely be closely related prior art. > No, I meant prior art of clamshell designs. If you take opposite pages in a book (if that is what Kay envisioned?) and turn it 90 degrees, . . . > Beside, and as you noted, Dynabook is only a concept. Not to insult > PARC, but you might as well have cited something from Star Trek. While not relevant for a REAL patent, for a "Design Patent", whatever the F THAT is, wouldn't Star Trek count? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 23:09:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:09:16 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> On 09/10/2012 11:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 >> >> "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about >> 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." >> >> This isn't even true for SCSI disks, much less all the different kinds >> before that. > > Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. > 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . > > The author's probably never even seen an IBM 1311 or Bryant 4000. He's absolutely clueless. Drives used in EMC storage arrays, for example, which usually contain hundreds of drives, are usually (perhaps always) formatted to 576 bytes/sector. Most SCSI-protocol drives (whether they use the "SCSI" physical layer or not) can be formatted to any sector size you want. The same goes for SMD; the formatting is handled by the controller in that case. Still, somehow, people like that manage to get published. I just don't get it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 23:11:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:11:47 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504EBA03.8050105@neurotica.com> On 09/10/2012 11:42 PM, David Riley wrote: >>>> http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2367378 >>>> >>> >>> "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about >>> 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." >>> >>> This isn't even true for SCSI disks, much less all the different kinds >>> before that. >> >> Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. >> 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . >> >> The author's probably never even seen an IBM 1311 or Bryant 4000. > > I mean, he wrote Berkeley FFS, so I suppose he should have some > idea that there were other sector sizes. I'd be willing to chalk > it up to a brain fart, though it seems like a big oversight. I > hadn't even noticed that particular line; I think the rest of the > article is fairly informative. ...and I just read who wrote the article. I am completely flabbergasted. I wonder if he did this to see if anyone would call him on it? If ANYONE knows, he does. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 10 23:35:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 00:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Indeed. I've seen hard drives with sector sizes all over the place. > 256 bytes and 1024 bytes weren't unknown on SCSI devices . I've got a 3?" SCSI floppy drive (yes, a floppy drive with a SCSI interface!) that reports itself as having 256-byte blocks. I don't know whether it works as a floppy drive; the OS support for SCSI I have is broken enough on devices with non-512-byte sectors that I'm not really in a position to try it out. I also don't really have much else left that uses 3?" floppies.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 10 23:37:17 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 21:37:17 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504EBFFD.6090208@jwsss.com> On 9/10/2012 8:42 PM, David Riley wrote: > I mean, he wrote Berkeley FFS, so I suppose he should have some > idea that there were other sector sizes. I am currently having to use fuseext2 because the linux driver can't handle sector sizes not related to the page size of the system, or at least does not handle the 16k size that the netgear / infarant readynas uses. it is implmented on a sparc and has the 16k size, which Intel linux will not mount. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 10 23:51:29 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 23:51:29 -0500 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209110451.q8B4pj4R087924@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:09 PM 9/10/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > He's absolutely clueless. Drives used in EMC storage arrays, for >example, which usually contain hundreds of drives, are usually (perhaps >always) formatted to 576 bytes/sector. Extra bytes for sector-level error correction, interpreted outside of the drive's own hardware? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 11 00:27:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:27:44 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <201209110451.q8B4pj4R087924@billy.ezwind.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> <201209110451.q8B4pj4R087924@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <504ECBD0.2030200@neurotica.com> On 09/11/2012 12:51 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 11:09 PM 9/10/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> He's absolutely clueless. Drives used in EMC storage arrays, for >> example, which usually contain hundreds of drives, are usually (perhaps >> always) formatted to 576 bytes/sector. > > Extra bytes for sector-level error correction, interpreted outside > of the drive's own hardware? AFAIK it's used for externally-handled ECC. I typed 576 bytes above; I meant 520 bytes. I'm sitting in a hotel at the moment, pretty tired from driving, that's my excuse. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 11 01:02:11 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (fjkraan) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:02:11 +0200 Subject: DOS era chatterbot nonsense-generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <801f8a06ce8186bee096aed4daf68fe4@xs4all.nl> >> >> The basic patter of this program was to ingest text, mix it up, and >> emit >> something that sounds like the original, but turned into a word >> salad. >> Using a Shakespeare play and something from Ian Flemming as input >> files >> would result in stuff that looks like a Shakespearean spy thriller >> to >> varying degrees depending on how you set the input proportions. > Waffle? (http://www.simple-talk.com/dotnet/.net-tools/the-waffle-generator/) Fred Jan From josecvalle at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 09:06:20 2012 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:06:20 -0300 Subject: Reading Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am curator of Museu do Computador, Brazil , Jose Carlos Valle Thera are 2 kinds of floppies an 360 kb and another in High density 1.2 Mb. But, with a tool, I cut a small hole at left floppy and I double the floppy. goes to 720 at total I have that tool in my Museu. thanks 2012/9/9 David Coolbear > Hey Everybody, > > Is there anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area that could create images of > three 5.25" floppies for me? I think that they are 720k with 256 byte > sectors, but I'm not sure. In any case, I've not been able to read them so > far. > -- * * * * * * *Jos? Carlos Valle - curador * *Tel: (11)xx4666-7545* *E-mail: curador at museudocomputador.com.br* *facebook: www.facebook.com/museudocomputador* *twitter: @curadordomuseu* *Cel: **Claro: 98874-0100 ? TIM: 95132-5559 ? VIVO: 99562-0211* * * From cool1 at thecoolbears.org Mon Sep 10 18:54:05 2012 From: cool1 at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:54:05 -0700 Subject: Reading Floppies Message-ID: > > Is there anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area that could create images of > > three 5.25" floppies for me? I think that they are 720k with 256 byte > > sectors, but I'm not sure. In any case, I've not been able to read them so > > far. > > 1) Do you know what computer created them? > > 2) FM? MFM? GCR? (Sirius/Victor 9000?) > > 3) What have you triesd so far? > What messages do you get? > The difference between "General Failure" and "Sector Not Found" IS > significant. I believe that they were created on an OS-9 68000 (the Microware, not the Apple variety). I don't have the computer any more, just the floppies. I tried to image them. If they are what I expect them to be, then they would be 720k MFM. I've tried to read them with a 1.2M 5.25 drive, using fdutils, on a LINUX box, but I'm not sure that I've got my drive strapped to spin at the correct RPM. In any case, fdutils reports an error 40. I'm not sure that the hardware I'm using will even talk to a 720k floppy. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 11 02:14:24 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:14:24 -0600 Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120910210233.M3970@shell.lmi.net> References: <1627029054-1347333966-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1178153079-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120910210233.M3970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <504EE4D0.5020406@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > While not relevant for a REAL patent, for a "Design Patent", whatever > the F THAT is, wouldn't Star Trek count? Items in fictional works can count as prior art even for a utility patent (which is presumably what you meant by "REAL"), provided that the fictional item encompasses the patent claim. In other words, if a cellular phone patent claim was worded "A handheld communication device having a hinged cover, where the device is activated when the cover is opened, and deactivated when the cover is closed", then the "communicator" from the original Star Trek television series would be relevant prior art to invalidate the patent claim, because even though the communicator didn't really exist, it demonstrates that someone had come up with the idea described in the patent claim. On the other hand, if there is a dependent claim such as "The handheld communication device of claim 1, in which the communication occurs via a time-division multiplexed UHF radio signal", the Star Trek communicator is not prior art for that claim, because we were never told how the Star Trek communicator actually works. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 11 02:18:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 01:18:51 -0600 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <504EE5DB.8070203@brouhaha.com> David Riley wrote: > I mean, he wrote Berkeley FFS, so I suppose he should have some idea > that there were other sector sizes. Berkeley was using the PDP-11 and VAX, both of which almost exclusively used 512-byte sectors. It's possible that he didn't realize that this was not universal practice on other contemporary machines. "All the world's a VAX." From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Sep 11 03:50:30 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 03:50:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504EE5DB.8070203@brouhaha.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <93C5B6C9-7CC7-4CE3-A837-91A83A39701F@gmail.com> <504EE5DB.8070203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > David Riley wrote: > >> I mean, he wrote Berkeley FFS, so I suppose he should have some idea >> that there were other sector sizes. > > Berkeley was using the PDP-11 and VAX, both of which almost exclusively > used 512-byte sectors. It's possible that he didn't realize that this > was not universal practice on other contemporary machines. "All the > world's a VAX." ...or maybe his technical editor screwed up while cutting the article down to publication size? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Sep 11 07:07:06 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:07:06 -0400 Subject: Netscape 7.2 Mirgration Message-ID: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> I am currently using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. Has anyone any experience migrating all of the files to a 32 bit Windows XP? I have over ten years worth of e-mails and posts from previous versions of Netscape as well as the current version that I very much wish to retain as is. In addition, I just tested the Win32 variant (a 32 bit program, of course) of V6.0 Ersatz-11 under a 64 bit Windows 7. It seemed to work very well running at about twice the speed of an older system which was running under Windows XP. Does anyone have any experience in a migration of Netscape 7.2 to a 64 bit Windows 7 system? If Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11 can work well using a 64 bit Windows 7 system, then I may skip all the in-between OSs from Microsoft and go directly to a 64 bit Windows 7. I know that there are many (and much better systems) than Microsoft, but at 74 years old, I don't feel like taking the time and effort to learn them well enough to set up. My son will set up a system for me and I can just do the migration. I would much rather stay with RT-11, but I don't believe that it can do a reasonable job with e-mail, if at all. PLUS, under that 64 bit Windows 7 system, RT-11 running under Ersatz-11 has a speed of about 150 times a PDP-11/93. Jerome Fine From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Sep 11 09:19:53 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:19:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cambridge Digital 11/73 system questions Message-ID: Greetings; I have a Cambridge Digital "94/23-70S" that I'm trying to bring back to the land of the living, filled with cards I can find little information about. I was hoping someone might be able to point me in the right direction. QBus cardcage with: Chrislin Industries CI-1173-EDC Emulex SU0210401 Technical Magic Inc 4S I think it's fairly clear the Chrislin is an 11/73 SBC, I know the Emulex is an SMD controller, and the 4S is a four-port serial card. I can't find manuals on either the Chrislin or the Emulex, and although I can't find a manual specifically for the 4S 4-port serial card, BitSavers has one for its bigger brother - the 8S 8-port card. Hopefully they're close enough. System also comes with a CPI tape drive (BY5A3-B) and an 8" Fujitsu M2312K. I'd really like some PSU pinouts so I can test it prior to plugging the cardcage in and seeing if it works. The boards are also covered in a fairly thick layer of mold, which is something I'm not used to seeing. Trying to decide what I can use to safely clean them - possibly Isopropyl, a QTip and some patience. Any help would be greatly appreciated; - JP From doc at vaxen.net Tue Sep 11 09:35:01 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:35:01 -0500 Subject: Free TU80 tape drives Message-ID: <504F4C15.5060802@vaxen.net> I have 3 DEC TU80 9-track drives that need to get gone. They are located in Austin TX and have been in storage since 2009. If you want them and can either pick them up, arrange to have them picked up, or pay for me to do so, they're yours. I would much prefer that they go as a set, but this beggar won't be choosy. Unfortunately, I need to dispose of them before September 24. I can no longer afford two storage units and that's the release date on the one that I'm closing. If nobody wants these drives, I'll have to scrap them. One was in fairly regular use until 2009, one other passed its internal diagnostics and tested good for read/write against the other at that time. The the plexiglas cover of the third one is broken and I never got around to replacing that so I've never powered it on. All three are in their original short racks. I have at least one Unibus controller and cable, maybe a couple of each, and a good handful of untested tapes with write rings. Doc PS - If you want the drives but can't pick them up before the 24th and are willing to pay a nominal amount on my storage until you can get here, we can work that out too. That's more a matter of "earnest money" than anything else. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 10:17:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:17:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: > I've got a 3?" SCSI floppy drive (yes, a floppy drive with a SCSI > interface!) that reports itself as having 256-byte blocks. Does it have any provision to reconfigure? > I don't know whether it works as a floppy drive; the OS support for > SCSI I have is broken enough on devices with non-512-byte sectors that > I'm not really in a position to try it out. Prob'ly because the guy who wrote that code had just read: >>> "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until about >>> 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:21:47 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:21:47 -0300 Subject: Reading Floppies References: Message-ID: <522077A26B8F4A8B85FD425E3E6FF9CF@tababook> Jose, if you're talking about the apple floppies, it doesn't double to 720, but 360. The apple floppy is a 180KB disk, and not a 360 one. 360 is what you get using both sides of the disk. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose carlos Valle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Reading Floppies I am curator of Museu do Computador, Brazil , Jose Carlos Valle Thera are 2 kinds of floppies an 360 kb and another in High density 1.2 Mb. But, with a tool, I cut a small hole at left floppy and I double the floppy. goes to 720 at total I have that tool in my Museu. thanks 2012/9/9 David Coolbear > Hey Everybody, > > Is there anybody in the San Francisco Bay Area that could create images of > three 5.25" floppies for me? I think that they are 720k with 256 byte > sectors, but I'm not sure. In any case, I've not been able to read them so > far. > -- * * * * * * *Jos? Carlos Valle - curador * *Tel: (11)xx4666-7545* *E-mail: curador at museudocomputador.com.br* *facebook: www.facebook.com/museudocomputador* *twitter: @curadordomuseu* *Cel: **Claro: 98874-0100 ? TIM: 95132-5559 ? VIVO: 99562-0211* * * From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 10:27:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flippies (Was: Reading Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120911082157.V17346@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Jose carlos Valle wrote: > I am curator of Museu do Computador, Brazil , Jose Carlos Valle > Thera are 2 kinds of floppies an 360 kb and another in High density 1.2 Mb. > But, with a tool, I cut a small hole at left floppy and I double the > floppy. goes to 720 at total > I have that tool in my Museu. Are you talking about a jig to modify a single sided diskette, so that you can flip it over and use the other side as a single sided diskette? (called a "flippy" disk) Are you just punching an additional write-protect notch (suitable for Apple, Commodore, Atari) or are you punching an additional set of index hole access holes? The first such jig that I'm aware of was sold by Don? French. (sheet metal with tabs to hold the disk against) The second one was the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig. (plexiglass pocket jig) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 10:53:43 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 08:53:43 -0700 Subject: Cambridge Digital 11/73 system questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 11, 2012 7:22 AM, "JP Hindin" wrote: >> > QBus cardcage with: > Chrislin Industries CI-1173-EDC > Emulex SU0210401 > Technical Magic Inc 4S > > I think it's fairly clear the Chrislin is an 11/73 SBC, I know the Emulex > is an SMD controller, and the 4S is a four-port serial card. I can't find > manuals on either the Chrislin or the Emulex, and although I can't find a > manual specifically for the 4S 4-port serial card, BitSavers has one for > its bigger brother - the 8S 8-port card. Hopefully they're close enough. > > System also comes with a CPI tape drive (BY5A3-B) and an 8" Fujitsu > M2312K. > - JP Maybe the Emulex SMD controller is actually an SC02 ? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/SC0251002-W_SC02C_Oct85.pdf From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 11 11:22:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I've got a 3?" SCSI floppy drive (yes, a floppy drive with a SCSI >> interface!) that reports itself as having 256-byte blocks. > Does it have any provision to reconfigure? Not that I see. It's possible frobbing the right value in the right mode page, or passing the right arguments to a FORMAT UNIT operation, or some such, might change it. It has a bank of ten jumpers, but they are not labeled very usefully - the only documentation I see on the thing (the silk-screening on the visible side of the board) labels them, in order, EJC, J, H, G, F, LEV, HDS, STL, PAR, MON. It appears to be an interface board in front of a more or less ordinary floppy drive, though I suspect appearances are deceptive, since I don't see any power feed to the front-end board except possibly over what looks like an ordinary floppy interface - but an ordinary floppy interface does not supply power from the drive to the ribbon cable. At first I thought there was no model number marking, but on careful inspection I do find a sticker indicating it's a TEAC FD-235HS. ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/scsi-floppy.jpg is a photo I just now took of it; you can see the ten jumpers at the bottom left of the front-end board (the easily visible one). Of the three 2xN headers at the right, the 50-pin one at the far right is the SCSI interface; the 34-pin one, the lower of the left two, is the "ordinary floppy interface" from above. The 22-pin one above it is just a socket on the other side; I conjecture it's for SCSI termination resistor packs. At the far left you can see a sticker (the one with the T?V and CSA and assorted other logos); the yellow patch on that sticker, just before FD-235HS, is the TEAC name in silver-on-yellow. >> [...]; the OS support for SCSI I have is broken enough on devices >> with non-512-byte sectors that [...] > Prob'ly because the guy who wrote that code had just read: >>>> "From the time of their first availability in the 1950s until >>>> about 2010, the sector size on disks has been 512 bytes." Ha. That would entail some interesting causality tangles, since the SCSI support in question goes back at least a decade. I don't know why it was written that way. I suspect it was a case of supporting the common case first, then never getting around to going back and dealing with the uncommon cases. Then, after a few years of accretion of code that blindly assumes everything uses the same sector size, changing it became a major undertaking. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 11:31:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 09:31:16 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <504F04E4.20058.3FD5EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2012 at 8:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: > > I've got a 3?" SCSI floppy drive (yes, a floppy drive with a SCSI > > interface!) that reports itself as having 256-byte blocks. > > Does it have any provision to reconfigure? If it's a drive used in a lot of workstations (e.g. Teac FD235S), it's a standard FD235HF with a bolted on SCSI-to-Floppy adapter/controller. Sector size is strictly a matter of firmware, but I believe the Teac drives allowed for different sector sizes. If it's one of the "flopticals", such as the old InSite or LS-120 drives, format choice is much less flexible, although most LS-120 drives (as well as most USB drives) will *read* (but not format) PC98 1024-byte sector floppies. The big problem that makes SCSI unsitable for universal floppy use is that it's strictly block-relative addressing--the entire disk is assumed to contain tracks of the same number and size sectors. This can create issues when a disk has, say, an FM first cylinder with the remainder of the disk MFM (not as uncommon as one might think). --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Sep 11 12:15:39 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:15:39 +0200 Subject: Netscape 7.2 Mirgration In-Reply-To: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> References: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20120911171539.GA29214@beast.freibergnet.de> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am currently using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. > Has anyone any experience migrating all of the files to a > 32 bit Windows XP? > > I have over ten years worth of e-mails and posts from > previous versions of Netscape as well as the current > version that I very much wish to retain as is. > > In addition, I just tested the Win32 variant (a 32 bit > program, of course) of V6.0 Ersatz-11 under a 64 bit > Windows 7. It seemed to work very well running at > about twice the speed of an older system which was > running under Windows XP. Does anyone have any > experience in a migration of Netscape 7.2 to a 64 bit > Windows 7 system? If Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11 > can work well using a 64 bit Windows 7 system, then > I may skip all the in-between OSs from Microsoft and > go directly to a 64 bit Windows 7. > > I know that there are many (and much better systems) > than Microsoft, but at 74 years old, I don't feel like taking > the time and effort to learn them well enough to set up. > > My son will set up a system for me and I can just do > the migration. I would much rather stay with RT-11, > but I don't believe that it can do a reasonable job with > e-mail, if at all. PLUS, under that 64 bit Windows 7 > system, RT-11 running under Ersatz-11 has a speed > of about 150 times a PDP-11/93. > > Jerome Fine Jerome I do actually know of a guy thats older as you and is happyly using one of the (german) Linux Distributions (Suse). I don't know if Ersatz-11 is available as native Linux version, but even the Windows Emulator Wine isn't that green anymore that one couldn't try to run Ersatz-11 on that emulator. If tthat would'nt work, there is always simh (wich I'm using und FreeBSD). Simply try to import you Netscape Mail into a actual Thunderbird on another machine, I've never tried that but I think it will just work.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 12:25:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading Floppies In-Reply-To: <522077A26B8F4A8B85FD425E3E6FF9CF@tababook> References: <522077A26B8F4A8B85FD425E3E6FF9CF@tababook> Message-ID: <20120911101927.M20115@shell.lmi.net> yOn Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Jose, if you're talking about the apple floppies, it doesn't double to > 720, but 360. The apple floppy is a 180KB disk, and not a 360 one. 360 is > what you get using both sides of the disk. No, 280K is what you get if you use both sides of an Apple ][ diskette (140K). It is GCR (neither FM nor MFM) with 1 side, 13 or 16 sectors per track, and 256 bytes per sector. MFM 80 track single sided gives 320K to 400K, 640K to 800K when using both sides. To go from 360K to 720K, he is presumably using 80 track (96tpi), with either 9 sectors per track of 512 bytes per sector, or 18 sectors per track with 256 bytes per sector. There are numerous such formats. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Sep 11 12:29:39 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:29:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cambridge Digital 11/73 system questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sep 11, 2012 7:22 AM, "JP Hindin" wrote: > >> > > QBus cardcage with: > > Chrislin Industries CI-1173-EDC > > Emulex SU0210401 > > Technical Magic Inc 4S > > > > I think it's fairly clear the Chrislin is an 11/73 SBC, I know the Emulex > > is an SMD controller, and the 4S is a four-port serial card. I can't find > > manuals on either the Chrislin or the Emulex, and although I can't find a > > manual specifically for the 4S 4-port serial card, BitSavers has one for > > its bigger brother - the 8S 8-port card. Hopefully they're close enough. > > > > System also comes with a CPI tape drive (BY5A3-B) and an 8" Fujitsu > > M2312K. > > - JP > > Maybe the Emulex SMD controller is actually an SC02 ? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/SC0251002-W_SC02C_Oct85.pdf The labelling is clearly different - however, the picture of the board from this PDF appears damned near identical to my eye. If it's not identical, it's got to be really close. Looks like a winner to me. Thanks, Glen. - JP From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 11 12:35:53 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:35:53 -0700 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) Message-ID: I was the one that was able to snag the LA-36 DECWriter II that Corey Anderson had rescued from being scrapped. Thanks, Corey, I really appreciate it! I had a great time chatting about the "old days" with Corey when I visited his home to pick up the LA-36. I intend to use this as the console terminal for my PDP 11/34 system. It's a lot more appropriate than the Heathkit H19 currently serving that purpose. I got the LA-36 home on Sunday, but didn't have time to do much with it until yesterday. I did a basic cleaning -- getting rid of dust and cobwebs. In general the terminal was in pretty good shape, and despite some dust and spider leftovers, it was quite clean inside. One of the first things I noticed was that the main controller board looked different than I expected, and on closer inspection, I saw that it wasn't a DEC board. It said "SELANAR CORP." and "GRAPHICS II" in silkscreen on the board. There are sockets for eight 2708 EPROMs, of which 6 are filled (I was worried that some were missing because of the empty sockets), with round stickers over the windows that say "SELANAR". There are three sockets for some kind of RAM (haven't identified it yet), of which only one socket is filled. There appear to be two processors, one made by Western Digital, and another made by Fairchild. Both appear to have onboard EPROM, as they have windows on them that are painted over with a thick black paint. I checked all of the fuses, and they were good. I unplugged everything from the control board (keyboard connector, printhead drive, carriage drive stepper, pin-feed drive stepper), serial connector, and a couple of power connectors, and powered up the power supply, and found that all of the voltages were good, with minimum ripple. I did a close visual on the controller board, and it looked good...no debris or signs of overheating/blown components. I also checked out the solenoid and stepper driver board, and it also looked good. I wiped down the carriage rail to remove dust and grime, and then oiled it lightly. The carriage moved smoothly in both directions, but the ribbon advance mechanism seemed a bit gummed up, which I figured I could address later, since the ribbon is all dried out anyway. I plugged all of the connectors back in, and put some paper in it, then used a variac to slowly power it up. It didn't appear to like being slowly powered up, as the steppers got all wonky - but, I didn't get any smoke, so I quickly ramped the power back down, plugged the DECWriter directly into mains, and powered it up with the power switch. The carriage went left until it hit the stop with a bang...and sat there with the stepper humming for a nervous 3/4 or so second, then the carriage moved to the right a bit, and things got quiet (other than the hum of the power supply). I set the machine to local mode, and hit a key, and the pins hit the ribbon/paper, and the printhead moved to the next print location. After a familiar delay, the printhead moved to the right to allow the character (which was invisible because of the bad ribbon) to be seen. I typed all of the characters on the keyboard, and everything seems to work -- linefeed, carriage return, backspace, space, repeat, bell(^G), etc. So, the unit appears to be in good shape, though I don't know if the characters print correctly until I can find a ribbon for it. I'm quite happy that it seems to be generally alive. Now, on to the point of my posting: Does anyone know anything about Selanar's Graphics II board for the LA-36? BitSavers doesn't have anything that I could find. Google nets old ads and product announcements in trade rags of the day (1982-ish). Selanar also made graphics engine boards for VT100's, Televideo 950's, and various other printing and display terminals. One advertisement I saw showed an LA-36 that had a pretty printout of a Spirograph-like drawing. I would love to find some documentation on how the graphics work. I found some information relating to FORTRAN libraries that provided routines for "MOVE", "DRAW", and various other graphics primitives, but no real documentation. I'd love to find an operator's guide or a programming guide to figure out how to make the graphics work. I plan on pulling the ROMs and dumping them, and passing them to BitSavers. Anyone out there have any information on this thing that they could share? I'm going to do some more cleanup, test the serial port to see if it works, and track down a ribbon for it (I have a lot of calculator ribbons that I may put onto the spools for the DECWriter just as a temporary measure). The serial cable has had the connector cut off, so I'll have to figure out the pinout and put a connector on the end. Plenty of stuff to keep me busy. There is a DB-25F connector on the Selanar board that isn't plugged into anything. I'm wondering what it might be for, so I may hook a terminal up to it and see if I can get any kind of response from it. Hopefully someone out there will have some docs for this thing that can eliminate the mysteries of this relic. Thanks, Rick Bensene From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 12:45:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 10:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flippies (Was: Reading Floppies Message-ID: <1347385518.91524.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> that jig was later to become known as a nibble notcher. I still got mine. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 8:27 AM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Jose carlos Valle wrote: >> I am curator of Museu do Computador, Brazil , Jose Carlos Valle >> Thera are 2 kinds of floppies an 360 kb and another in High density 1.2 Mb. >> But, with a tool, I cut a small hole at left floppy and I double the >> floppy. goes to 720 at total >> I have that tool in my Museu. > >Are you talking about a jig to modify a single sided diskette, so that you >can flip it over and use the other side as a single sided diskette? >(called a "flippy" disk) > >Are you just punching an additional write-protect notch (suitable >for Apple, Commodore, Atari) or are you punching an additional set of >index hole access holes? > >The first such jig that I'm aware of was sold by Don? French. >(sheet metal with tabs to hold the disk against) >The second one was the Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig. >(plexiglass pocket jig) > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 13:04:00 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:04:00 +0100 Subject: Netscape 7.2 Mirgration In-Reply-To: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> References: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 11 September 2012 13:07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am currently using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. > Has anyone any experience migrating all of the files to a > 32 bit Windows XP? :-o *Boggle* An actual Win98 user in 2012? Wow! Anyway. The direct linear descendant of Netscape 6.x/7.x is Seamonkey: http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ I would suggest carefully moving your message store onto Win7 (or whatever), reinstalling Netscape 7.2 - which should work fine - and making sure that all your messages are picked up and work. Then, this being done, install the latest Seamonkey. In theory it should pick up and import all your stuff; you can then remove Netscape. Make backups like you make footprints walking from the shower to the towel rail, naturally. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 13:04:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Flippies (Was: Reading Floppies In-Reply-To: <1347385518.91524.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347385518.91524.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120911105711.L20115@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > that jig was later to become known as a nibble notcher. I still got mine. "nibble notcher" only did the write protect notch, therefore only suitable for machines that did not use the index sensor, such as Apple ][, Commodore, Atari. The two that I mentioned also marked the jacket for punching a set of index sensor access holes (for use with TRS80, 5150 160K,180K, etc.) The Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig was also available for 8" diskettes, which had a different index hole position for SS V DS NB: For Apple 5.25" disks, I specify ][, to avoid confusion with Lisa. In addition, later on, there were punches for punching a density hole in 720K 3.5" to be able to turn a good 720K diskette into a marginal 1.4M, although SOME machines, including some PS/2 models (NOT SONY PS2!), did not use the sensor and would happily format 720K diskettes to 1.4M and confuse other machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:02:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> Message-ID: <1347390146.81169.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Paul Anderson Pseudo derives from the Greek ??????, (pseudes) which means "lying". So it means exactly fake:) Aristophanes in one of his plays even has a Persian ambassador character named Pseudartabas - "false measure". C: Pseudepigrapha - falsely attributed works, "faked" authorship. Or something close. Takes on more meaning if it refers to religious works. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Sep 11 14:03:23 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:03:23 +0000 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504ECBD0.2030200@neurotica.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> <201209110451.q8B4pj4R087924@billy.ezwind.net> <504ECBD0.2030200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9F5E6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, September 10, 2012 10:28 PM > On 09/11/2012 12:51 AM, John Foust wrote: >> At 11:09 PM 9/10/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> He's absolutely clueless. Drives used in EMC storage arrays, for >>> example, which usually contain hundreds of drives, are usually (perhaps >>> always) formatted to 576 bytes/sector. >> >> Extra bytes for sector-level error correction, interpreted outside >> of the drive's own hardware? > AFAIK it's used for externally-handled ECC. > I typed 576 bytes above; I meant 520 bytes. I'm sitting in a hotel at > the moment, pretty tired from driving, that's my excuse. ;) 576 sounded fine to me. After all, it's what was used on RA-81 drives when connected via CFS to KL-10 systems with the CI option installed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:08:02 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <20120910163233.V94612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1BD03421-904E-4359-8590-E29F8F8827DD@me.com> <20120910163233.V94612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1347390482.12996.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin On Mon, 10 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Pseudo derives from the Greek ??????, (pseudes) which means > "lying". So it means exactly fake:) Aristophanes in one of his plays > even has a Persian ambassador character named Pseudartabas - "false > measure". But, by meaning fake, it could mean "completely not the same", or so good a fake that it's hard to tell the difference from the real thing. A "pseudo IBM XT" would mean a fake XT, like those perfectly infringing Chinese imitations. (sometimes called a "clone") C: Pseudo, at least in my head, can seem to indicate takes on some characteristics of what's it's copying. But falls short. Hence the usage of pseudo-compatible. Off the top of my pointy head, all "ms-dos compatibles", which is in itself a misleading term (chances are every term will end up being misleading) could read IBM formatted disks. Probably all used extended ASCII. So there are different levels of compatibility. All used BASIC probably. Not all were BIOS compatible, but by necessity all were dos services compatible. As you point out the usage of pseudo is at best ambiguous, if not altogether misleading. Oi whatever. Maybe pseudo should be abolished in favor of in- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:10:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1347390651.22495.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis On 10 Sep 2012 at 12:39, Chris Tofu wrote: > one other question - shouldn't it be relatively easy to write a > program that recognizes another IBM pseudo compatible's MS-DOS format? > If for instance you wanted to read NEC APC disks on a Canon AS-100. 77x2x8x1024.? I even wrote a PeeCee driver for the format decades ago (wander around SIMTEL and you might find it).? C: Thanks, but that doesn't solve the problem of which drive to use w/that peecee. I started making an adapter to connect the APC drives to a pc centuries ago. I might pick that back up, but I'm dubious of it's utility. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:12:29 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:12:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1347390749.32168.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis ...MS-DOS system API.... C: I was going to say isn't that an anachronism. Like the usage of the longbow in Ivanhoe? I've done it myself, but IINM no one used the term until probably the early 90s. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 11 14:14:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:14:38 -0400 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9F5E6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <504EB96C.50904@neurotica.com> <201209110451.q8B4pj4R087924@billy.ezwind.net> <504ECBD0.2030200@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1B9F5E6@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <504F8D9E.7060807@neurotica.com> On 09/11/2012 03:03 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>>> He's absolutely clueless. Drives used in EMC storage arrays, for >>>> example, which usually contain hundreds of drives, are usually (perhaps >>>> always) formatted to 576 bytes/sector. >>> >>> Extra bytes for sector-level error correction, interpreted outside >>> of the drive's own hardware? > >> AFAIK it's used for externally-handled ECC. > >> I typed 576 bytes above; I meant 520 bytes. I'm sitting in a hotel at >> the moment, pretty tired from driving, that's my excuse. ;) > > 576 sounded fine to me. After all, it's what was used on RA-81 drives > when connected via CFS to KL-10 systems with the CI option installed. Yup. :-) Freudian slip. EMC drives are formatted to 520, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 14:18:04 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> I've got a 3?" SCSI floppy drive (yes, a floppy drive with a SCSI >>> interface!) that reports itself as having 256-byte blocks. >> Does it have any provision to reconfigure? > At first I thought there was no model number marking, but on careful > inspection I do find a sticker indicating it's a TEAC FD-235HS. > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/scsi-floppy.jpg is a photo I just > now took of it; I picked up a 5-1/4" variant of that drive (also a TEAC "S" model) several years ago and have never been able to find a shred of technical information on it. -- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:23:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <20120910164822.I94612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910164822.I94612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1347391439.42772.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin duly noted.? Are you sure that you are the first? C: Until someone proves otherwise, I'm damned sure. > C: Ok, I have a bunch of NEC APC I disks. I hope to read them (hope > springs eternal). I have little more then a little hope that they still > work. I'd like to read them on my Canon AS-100. I have NO docs for the > AS-100, and little more then boiler plate for the APC. Well, I'd recommend starting by getting code working to read them on an ordinary PC. ?C: Again if I had the ability to read them on a pc, what need would there be for code? ImageDisk would take care of that. Yep!? Any "ordinary" "standard" (HAH!) 8" drive will work.? But, you might need to try a bunch of controllers to find one that's OK. C: So the suggestion may be that all drives will work, as long as you have the right controller. It's just a matter of mixing and matching properly. Man I am so up a creek w/o a paddle! > > Does it have an Int13h that is close enough in calling structure? > C: Beats me If you want to write software that runs on the Canon, then working through that would be a place to start. C: I AIN'T GOT NO DOCS. Nor even a working boot diskette no more! Can't even try out that int 13h stuff if I wanted to. AND I WANT TO!! > > Does it have a similar INT1Eh if you need to change bytes per sector, > > etc., or will you need to talk directly to the chip?? WD 179x chips > > have a completely different communication than NEC 765 -like chips. > C: That I could have told anyone Good!? Then you've got a start on what you bneed to learn. C: Oh I'm learning quite a bit dont' worry. I'm learning constantly that this project is dead in the water. > > C: I believe I've plugged hd 5 1/4" drives into my Canon though, > > w/little success. It utilizes both 5" and 8" off the same connector. Then you need to work on jumpers.? Starting with Drive select. C: On the drive? Give me some credit. > C: somewhere on the order of 10 years ago a guy named Yogi in California > won a huge motherload of APC docs for 1$. I mean dozens of manuals, > totally unreal. I might have to look him up. Good.? Find him. C: I very well may find him. A lot of good that'll do me though, he doesn't have a single page of AS-100 docs. Which is the computer I need to get to reading them disks. SA 800 All others are just copies of it.? (with improvements) C: I assume you mean Shugart. Ain't never even seen one. ?These disks have probably crapped the bed anyway, weren't stored properly. I've not yet played w/8" disks. Are they anymore durable then 5 1/4" media (that is have greater longevity)? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 14:29:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 12:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: multi-layer circuit boards Message-ID: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they have multiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I guess I already know the answer, it's a huge headache to try and draw up schematics (or duplicate the artwork rather) w/only photographs of the top and bottom of the board? You'd need knowledge of the ic's, which isn't that huge a deal perhaps, being I'm questioning this w/regard to very standard ic's and glue. ?I want my APC back. I need to create copies of the cpu and disk controller cards. I don't have ready access to these. Each of these boards is nearly the size of a IBM 5150 mobo, so would it make sense that they are anything but single layer boards? And the APC had 2 video boards, each w/it's own pd7220. ?I got to find that yogi guy. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 13:26:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:26:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120910164545.K94612@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 10, 12 04:47:57 pm Message-ID: > That's a reasonable "requirement", but not universally agreed upon. > Some people didn't mind sitting with a ton of bricks on their lap and a > cord plugged into the wall. I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version) on my lap while I was troubeshootin soem part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds that the end of this troubelshooting it was running programs and is clearly a comnputer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 13:48:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:48:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 11, 12 12:22:18 pm Message-ID: > It appears to be an interface board in front of a more or less ordinary > floppy drive, though I suspect appearances are deceptive, since I don't > see any power feed to the front-end board except possibly over what > looks like an ordinary floppy interface - but an ordinary floppy > interface does not supply power from the drive to the ribbon cable. It's not unheard-of. Typically, the odd-numbered pins were used for power. On a 'normal' (as you called it) floppy drive, all are grounds. On a drive with power o nthe ribbon cable, theyr'e split into 3 groups for +5V, ground and +12V. The SOny drive used in the HP9114B (the half-height drive that shares parts with an Apple 800K drive) has soldered SMD jumpers to select either 'all grounds' and a spearate power connector or power over the ribbon vable, the 9144B uses the latter option. 'My' scheamtics for this unit should show it. -tony From ryan at hack.net Tue Sep 11 15:26:35 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 15:26:35 -0500 Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <937C45B8-5E9E-44AF-9854-DF61C1E7D08F@hack.net> Generally, the tip off is power and ground planes vs. bigger traces on the back or front. Are decoupling caps connected to vias or to power lines? Or, especially on older stuff, there will be a layer "key" on a board edge. -Ryan On Sep 11, 2012, at 2:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they have multiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I guess I already know the answer, it's a huge headache to try and draw up schematics (or duplicate the artwork rather) w/only photographs of the top and bottom of the board? You'd need knowledge of the ic's, which isn't that huge a deal perhaps, being I'm questioning this w/regard to very standard ic's and glue. > I want my APC back. I need to create copies of the cpu and disk controller cards. I don't have ready access to these. Each of these boards is nearly the size of a IBM 5150 mobo, so would it make sense that they are anything but single layer boards? And the APC had 2 video boards, each w/it's own pd7220. > I got to find that yogi guy. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 15:31:42 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:31:42 -0400 Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 11, 2012, at 3:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they have multiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I guess I already know the answer, it's a huge headache to try and draw up schematics (or duplicate the artwork rather) w/only photographs of the top and bottom of the board? You'd need knowledge of the ic's, which isn't that huge a deal perhaps, being I'm questioning this w/regard to very standard ic's and glue. It is nearly impossible with photos of just the top and bottom of the board. It's hard enough with X-rays. Visual inspection of the board (if you're lucky and they're not buried under planes, you can see the shadows of the buried traces) and buzzing out with a meter (assuming the normal caveats and pitfalls of buzzing out) are going to be a better bet. Of course, I'm assuming by "multiple" you mean "more than 2" rather than "more than 1". 2-layer boards are generally doable with just photos if there aren't gobs of lines running beneath ICs (and especially tightly-packed ICs). You'd still want the board to do continuity checks because you will invariably have lines running beneath ICs which you will need to sanity-check; the most pesky of those are the ones which actually terminate at a pin on the IC under which they run. > I want my APC back. I need to create copies of the cpu and disk controller cards. I don't have ready access to these. Each of these boards is nearly the size of a IBM 5150 mobo, so would it make sense that they are anything but single layer boards? And the APC had 2 video boards, each w/it's own pd7220. I'm assuming something like that is at least a 2-layer board, but anything is fair game. If it's a 4-layer board, I would expect a significant portion of the inner layers to be power and ground planes. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 15:32:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:32:56 -0700 Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347390749.32168.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com>, <1347390749.32168.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <504F3D88.3927.11D163D@cclist.sydex.com> _____________________ > From: Chuck Guzis > > ...MS-DOS system API.... > > C: I was going to say isn't that an anachronism. Like the usage of the > longbow in Ivanhoe? I've done it myself, but IINM no one used the term > until probably the early 90s. I'm not certain, but it was in use during the early versions of Windows. I'll have to check my files to see if it was used in the pre-release of MS-DOS 2.0 developer's documentation. That would make it exactly contemporary. As far as what drive for 8" DOS-V floppies--any 8" drive capable of handling double-sided media. A single-sided drive isn't going to be of much use. I like the Siemens FDD-200 or Qumetrack/8, but there are plenty of choices. You may have more of a problem finding an appropriate power supply. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 15:36:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 13:36:00 -0700 Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2012 at 12:29, Chris Tofu wrote: > are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they > have multiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I > guess I already know the answer, Hold the PCB up to a very strong light--many if not most multi-layer PCBs have internal power or ground planes. This makes the PCBs pretty much opaque--you can't see light shining through where the top and bottom foil has been edched away. Vias that seeming disappear into the PCB (i.e. no via visiable on the other side) are a pretty good hint also. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 11 16:09:15 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:09:15 -0400 Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >> I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version) on my lap while I was troubleshooting some part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds that the end of this troubleshooting it was running programs and is clearly a computer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'? The absurdity of that mental image proves my point: a laptop runs on its own power, ergo the Compass isn't one. It's small, flat, clamshell, and "portable" by design, but not a laptop. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 16:04:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:04:06 -0400 Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7F221F32-5131-406E-BA08-8E0C41096B5C@gmail.com> On Sep 11, 2012, at 4:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Sep 2012 at 12:29, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they >> have multiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I >> guess I already know the answer, > > Hold the PCB up to a very strong light--many if not most multi-layer > PCBs have internal power or ground planes. This makes the PCBs > pretty much opaque--you can't see light shining through where the top > and bottom foil has been edched away. Vias that seeming disappear > into the PCB (i.e. no via visiable on the other side) are a pretty > good hint also. Or, more likely, that go in one side and the opposite side has no connection. Blind vias have always been pretty expensive, and I can't recall having seen them on any vintage machines (though I'm sure there are plenty). - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Tue Sep 11 16:06:27 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:06:27 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> I like the odd angle of the chip peeking thru the hole at the bottom of the photo which is on the floppy drive. And as far as power, I see that it may have a standard looking 34 pin connector present in the form of a second rank of connector pins which appears to be J5 after the 50 for the scsi connector. Then above it is a 20 pin connector array which is labeled J7 I'd suspect pretty standard pins on the J5, and power, etc. on the J7 20 pin connector, but who knows. It is interesting. Probably saved design cost for integrating a floppy controller and drivers into a workstation as someone else said, but you have to wonder how efficient it was as far as SCSI with the bus handling,etc. And if one needed to do any of the usual stunts accessing the drive in odd ways other than sectors, life could get really complicated. jim On 9/11/2012 12:18 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/scsi-floppy.jpg is a photo I just > now took of it; From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 16:09:10 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <504F3D88.3927.11D163D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com>, <1347390749.32168.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504F3D88.3927.11D163D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1347397750.39149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis As far as what drive for 8" DOS-V floppies--any 8" drive capable of handling double-sided media. C: I have the APC drives. Can't remember make or model #. ?A single-sided drive isn't going to be of much use.? I like the Siemens FDD-200 or Qumetrack/8, but there are plenty of choices.? You may have more of a problem finding an appropriate power supply. C: I secured a 24vdc supply many moons ago. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 16:12:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1347397975.48778.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis Hold the PCB up to a very strong light--many if not most multi-layer PCBs have internal power or ground planes.? This makes the PCBs pretty much opaque--you can't see light shining through where the top and bottom foil has been edched away.? Vias that seeming disappear into the PCB (i.e. no via visiable on the other side) are a pretty good hint also. --Chuck C: Thanks for the the input from you, Ryan, and Dave? ?My friend Yogi is going to scope this situation out for me. As I said, he seemingly has complete sets/s of APC documentation. If I could only convince more people that digital camera "scans" of vintage documentation are more then adequate, we might have a lot of this stuff archived already. But then idiots like me allow disk media to sit around too long and in the wrong storage conditions that it negates any benefit there is to having the documentation. What a shame. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 11 16:21:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 14:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <7F221F32-5131-406E-BA08-8E0C41096B5C@gmail.com> References: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504F3E40.25811.11FE4DD@cclist.sydex.com> <7F221F32-5131-406E-BA08-8E0C41096B5C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1347398494.62899.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm getting the impression that examining the visible (top and bottom) circuit traces might be a better indication of what's "missing". If many chips lack +/- connections, that would indicate there are hidden ground planes. ?If my buddy only got me schematics, I'm sure I could figure out the rest. I don't have any skinny circuit board material that's as large as those boards I don't think. But regardless the choice of an adhesive isn't all that critical, right? *ducks for cover* From useddec at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 17:48:11 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:48:11 -0500 Subject: looking for an APC BBU/UPS 48VDC battery voltage, 220 AC, Don't need the batteries Message-ID: If you have one please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 19:16:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347391439.42772.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910125848.Q93439@shell.lmi.net> <1347310678.58942.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910142306.L94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347315367.5996.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120910164822.I94612@shell.lmi.net> <1347391439.42772.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120911170859.T31432@shell.lmi.net> > > C: I believe I've plugged hd 5 1/4" drives into my Canon though, > > w/little success. It utilizes both 5" and 8" off the same connector. > Then you need to work on jumpers.? Starting with Drive select. On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: C: On the drive? Give me some credit. Start with the computer! Get it to try to boot, and see which lines change state on the cable. If it's pin 12, then PC jumpering of the drive might work. If it's pin 10, then it mimics the civilized world. THEN jumper the drive to match what the computer is sending. With 8" drives, you can often set the motor to just stay running. Got a scope? Once you have drive select, motor on, and head load, then start looking for data. Most 8" drives were once well documented (before Dell, people dealt with their own hardware) Unfortunately, power supply is NOT standardized! Neither connector, nor voltages. You might need that 24V, you might not. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 11 19:34:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:34:45 -0700 Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <20120911170859.T31432@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <1347391439.42772.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20120911170859.T31432@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <504F7635.5372.1FA7A43@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2012 at 17:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > Start with the computer! > Get it to try to boot, and see which lines change state on the cable. > If it's pin 12, then PC jumpering of the drive might work. If it's pin > 10, then it mimics the civilized world. > > THEN jumper the drive to match what the computer is sending. > > With 8" drives, you can often set the motor to just stay running. > > Got a scope? > > Once you have drive select, motor on, and head load, then start > looking for data. In addition, most 5.25" HD drives use pin 34 on the interface for DISK CHANGED rather than READY. 8" drives all have READY outputs (a few have an option for DISK CHANGED in addition). --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 11 19:37:01 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:37:01 -0600 Subject: which 8" drive are most likely to work w/a stock high density controller? In-Reply-To: <1347397750.39149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347305986.43692.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <504E1BF2.24704.1DE4800@cclist.sydex.com>, <1347390749.32168.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <504F3D88.3927.11D163D@cclist.sydex.com> <1347397750.39149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <504FD92D.20600@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/11/2012 3:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I secured a 24vdc supply many moons ago. > How is your supply of moons? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 11 19:40:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:40:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I like the odd angle of the chip peeking thru the hole at the bottom > of the photo which is on the floppy drive. I noticed that. :) I took the SCSI interface board off the floppy drive and took two more pictures. To better keep them together, I created a new directory. ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/misc/scsi-floppy/ holds the pictures. assembled.jpg is the same file I mentioned before, just renamed. apart-1.jpg is a view of the floppy drive and the adapter board, separated; the floppy drive is in approximately the same orientation relative to the camera as in assembled.jpg, while the SCSI adapter board has been rotated a half-turn about a left-right line (and disconnected from the short ribbon cable to the drive). You can see the other side of the three 2xN pin arrays from the first picture: 2x25 for the SCSI, 2x17 for the floppy, and 2x11 for...well, I'm speculating, but my guess is SCSI termination resistors. That oddly rotated chip is quite clearly visible in this picture. apart-2.jpg is a closer view of the connector area of the two pieces. Orientations have been changed so that, again, one piece needs to be rotated 180 degrees about a left-right line to bring it into approximately its assembled orientation, but the two connector areas are much closer to one another. > And as far as power, I see that it may have a standard looking 34 pin > connector present in the form of a second rank of connector pins > which appears to be J5 after the 50 for the scsi connector. Yes. That goes to a very short ribbon cable to the floppy drive (disconnected in the two new pictures, but it's obvious, especially in about-2.jpg, how it goes together). > Then above it is a 20 pin connector array which is labeled J7 I'd > suspect pretty standard pins on the J5, and power, etc. on the J7 20 > pin connector, but who knows. J7 isn't power; at least, the board works enough to appear on the SCSI bus without anything connected to those sockets. Actually, looking more closely, I think J7 is only half of that, with J8 being the other half; otherwise, I can't account for seeing both J4 and J8 markings next to the SCSI connector. The RA1 and RA2 markings, and the white silk-screened line down the middle, also seem to imply that it's not really a 2x11 connector but rather two 1x11 connectors that happen to be mounted adjacent to one another. I'm still guessing optional SCSI termination resistors...especially in view of the etch runs (some of which are visible, poorly, in assembled.jpg and some others of which are visible, much better, in apart-2.jpg) connecting those pins to the SCSI connector. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 11 19:41:31 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:41:31 -0600 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > Does anyone know anything about Selanar's Graphics II board for the > LA-36? I knew that Selanar made a graphics board for the VT-100; I didn't know they made one for LA-36. That's exciting! I found these hits via Google books: "Plug-In Converts the DECwriter to Plotter", InfoWorld, November 21, 1979 "Board Adds Features to Decwriter LA35, LA36", Computerworld, December 4, 1978 Resolution is 1320x792, 4 fonts with APL standard. I'm guessing your EPROM slots are either firmware, font definitions, or both. The RAM slots look to be for the "1,000 character buffer" that allowed communication speeds up to 1200 baud. "Other standard features include EIA RS-232, 20mA current loop and TTL interfaces." Perhaps your other DB25F connector is the TTL interface. I have a Selanar board for the VT100, but I don't have one for the LA36, although I knew there were aftermarket boards for LA36 that provided faster printing and graphics features. > [...] I'd love to find an operator's guide or a > programming guide to figure out how to make the graphics work. It's entirely possible the graphics commands are compatible with Tektronix 4010/4014. I would cobble together a little BASIC program (or whatever) that outputs some Tek4010 vector drawing commands and see what happens. Google books excerpted an entry from BYTE, 1982, that appears to give the escape codes for the graphics commands. The excerpt reveals: pg. 176: ^L Form feed ^N APL character set Selects 2nd character set (factory set with APL) ^O Normal character set Selects normal character set ESC 5 Print entire character set Test mode ESC 7 Upside-down print mode Rotates characters 180 degrees ESC 8 Sideways I print mode Rotates characters 90 degrees ESC 9 Sideways II print mode Rotates characters 270 degrees ESC 0 Double width characters Prints double width characters ESC A Boldface characters Prints each character in boldface ESC C Special reset Returns DECwriter to normal configuration ESC F Power-up reset Resets ???, character styles, tabs, and top of form (also occurs at power-up) ESC H Down 1/4 line ESC J Set bar mode In graphics mode, prints all seven dots instead of one at a time ESC N 3rd character set Selects 3rd character set (factory set with math and greek symbols) ESC P 4th character set Selects 4th character set as defined in programmable memory By carefully crafting more google book searches, I was able to extract more of the table above. The issue in question is March, 1982, Volume 8, Number 3 pg. 172 "Graphics II by Selanar". LA36 ribbons are still fairly easy to obtain, so you should have no problem getting a "real" ribbon for it. Also, I think you can have the old ribbons re-inked. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 11 20:17:06 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:17:06 -0700 Subject: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel In-Reply-To: <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> On 9/11/12 5:40 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I like the odd angle of the chip peeking thru the hole at the bottom >> of the photo which is on the floppy drive. > > I noticed that. :) > > I took the SCSI interface board off the floppy drive and took two more > pictures. TC8569 is a floppy controller http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1029891&file=0009\tc8569af_71030.pdf there is a ram just above it (U3) (28 pins) U1 is probably the scsi controller U4 is probably a prom (28 pins) guessing U5 is a microcontroller (40 pins) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 11 20:24:16 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 18:24:16 -0700 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> On 9/11/12 6:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/11/12 5:40 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> I like the odd angle of the chip peeking thru the hole at the bottom >>> of the photo which is on the floppy drive. >> >> I noticed that. :) >> >> I took the SCSI interface board off the floppy drive and took two more >> pictures. > > TC8569 is a floppy controller > http://www.ic-on-line.cn/view_download.php?id=1029891&file=0009\tc8569af_71030.pdf > > there is a ram just above it (U3) (28 pins) > > U1 is probably the scsi controller > > U4 is probably a prom (28 pins) > > guessing U5 is a microcontroller (40 pins) > > I found the hardware spec for the board, which I've copied to bitsavers From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 11 20:50:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I found the hardware spec for the board, which I've copied to > bitsavers I went to look for it, and... [Sparkle] 262> ftp ftp.bitsavers.org Connected to bitsavers.org. 220 ProFTPD 1.3.3e Server (Classiccmp FTP Server) [209.145.140.19] Name (ftp.bitsavers.org:mouse): anonymous 331 Password required for anonymous Password: 530 Login incorrect. Does ftp.bitsavers.org just not support anonymous FTP, or is something broken? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 11 21:00:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 19:00:05 -0700 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> On 9/11/12 6:50 PM, Mouse wrote: > Does ftp.bitsavers.org just not support anonymous FTP, or is something > broken? > there is no anonymous ftp on bitsavers http://bitsavers.org/pdf/teac/FC-1/ if you dig around, a bunch of folks have figured out the mode select commmands to set the format. I did a quick search but couldn't find the teac document that describes the actual SCSI commands supported. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 21:42:39 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 02:42:39 +0000 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of the term laptop to describe their product? I would think that would help clear the definition perhaps. Obviously what end users ended up calling luggables were simply "portable" as the marketing term. It was a portable all enclosed version of a desktop. Pretty cool you can take your portable computer with you in itself but obviously portable power/batteries were a separate time frame. Is it the original intent that laptop meant self powered or is that only us reading too much into the details from todays expectations? -----Original Message----- From: "Evan Koblentz" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 17:09:15 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Bill Moggridge died >> I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version) on my lap while I was troubleshooting some part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds that the end of this troubleshooting it was running programs and is clearly a computer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'? The absurdity of that mental image proves my point: a laptop runs on its own power, ergo the Compass isn't one. It's small, flat, clamshell, and "portable" by design, but not a laptop. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 11 22:23:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:23:04 -0600 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having downloaded the BYTE in question, a more complete version of Table 1 from the article is as follows: ^L Form feed ^N APL character set Selects 2nd character set (factory set with APL) ^O Normal character set Selects normal character set ESC 5 Print entire character set Test mode ESC 7 Upside-down print mode Rotates characters 180 degrees ESC 8 Sideways I print mode Rotates characters 90 degrees ESC 9 Sideways II print mode Rotates characters 270 degrees ESC 0 Double width characters Prints double width characters ESC A Boldface characters Prints each character in boldface ESC B Enter graphics mode ESC C Special reset Returns DECwriter to normal configuration, exits graphics mode ESC F Power-up reset Resets all modes, character styles, tabs, and top of form ESC G Up 1/4 line ESC H Down 1/4 line ESC J Set bar mode In graphics mode, prints all seven dots instead of one at a time ESC N 3rd character set Selects 3rd character set (factory set with math and greek symbols) ESC P 4th character set Selects 4th character set as defined in programmable memory ESC Q Load-memory character set Defines 4th character set to be loaded into programmable memory Once in graphics mode, the Selanar doesn't use Tek401x command sequences as I guessed, but uses ASCII digits and the following command characters: 0-9 Build number in accumulator ( X1 := X2, Y1 := Y2, clear accumulator , X2 := accumulator, clear accumulator . Y2 := accumulator, clear accumulator ) Draw line from (X1, Y1) to (X2, Y2) ] Move to (X1, Y1) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 12 00:36:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 01:36:56 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> On 09/11/2012 10:42 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of the term laptop to describe their product? I would think that would help clear the definition perhaps. Obviously what end users ended up calling luggables were simply "portable" as the marketing term. It was a portable all enclosed version of a desktop. Pretty cool you can take your portable computer with you in itself but obviously portable power/batteries were a separate time frame. Reference? No, but I always thought "lap top" meant, well, "on top of your lap", rather than "self powered". ;) (sorry Evan) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 15:38:34 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 16:38:34 -0400 Subject: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: <20120910164545.K94612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 11 September 2012 14:26, Tony Duell wrote: > I once had a PDP11/05 CPU box (the 5.25" version) on my lap while I was > troubeshootin soem part of the hardware (I forget what). On the grounds > that the end of this troubelshooting it was running programs and is > clearly a comnputer, does that make the 11/05 the 'first laptop'? > > -tony Yes, yes it does. Because that is fscking *AWESOME*. Cheers, Christian From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Tue Sep 11 20:11:39 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 20:11:39 -0500 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer Message-ID: Does anyone know if there is software available for a Chromatics CG-1599 color graphics computer? Z80-based, has a dual 8? floppy drive and paper tape reader. Supposedly there was a version of Microsoft BASIC for it, but first I have to find the OS to get thing booted. Richard Lynch From jlw at jlw.com Tue Sep 11 23:28:33 2012 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 21:28:33 -0700 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50500F71.8090805@jlw.com> I was tasked with doing something with one of those for the University of Minnesota Computer Center (and of course had forgotten all about it until you mentioned it. I don't even remember what we used it for, though I have a vague recollection of doing super- and sub-scripting for formatted documents on it (or was that a Diablo? It's been quite a while.). I think I tried drawing stuff with it, maybe as a hardcopy for contemporary terak graphics, or something. It might have improved the performance of the LA36, perhaps by adding 1200bps and lots of buffering. These neurons are old and tired. The odds that I have anything in my archive that used this printer are infinitesimal (but nonzero). -- Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com first.last at gmail.com Spum bad keming. Nature abhors a straight antenna, a clean lens, and unused storage capacity. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "Card sorting, Joel." -me, re Solitaire From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 00:59:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 22:59:44 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> References: , <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 1:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Reference? No, but I always thought "lap top" meant, well, "on top > of your lap", rather than "self powered". ;) (sorry Evan) I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the Gavilan as a "laptop" computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up until then, the term was "notebook" computer. Anyone have an earlier cite? --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Sep 12 03:24:47 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:24:47 +0100 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I joined DEC in 1975 my first job was selling LA36's, VT52's and VT100's to OEM's A foreign board in the back is no surprise. I could sell the whole LA36, System less logic board or just the print mechanics. Even in the UK my minimum order quantity was 500 units per year. Some things to watch for on the LA36 1. If you get a light or missing dot do not assume it?s one of the print head solenoids or a driver transistor. The synthetic agate through which the wires run to the print point were prone to get gummed up. Take the head off and wash it in alcohol. Look out for the agate falling out when you wash it. 2. Steer clear of using Teletype ribbons. They have china clay in the ink and are as abrasive as hell. 3. Worn or frayed ribbons are prone to shed fibers which 4. Make sure whatever ribbon you use has the end of ribbon reversing eyelet present and make sure the reversing is working. 5. Fan fold paper can be 14 7/8" or 15 1/4" 6. Multipart paper is OK but it?s the pack thickness and not the number of sheets that count. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Bensene Sent: 11 September 2012 18:36 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) I was the one that was able to snag the LA-36 DECWriter II that Corey Anderson had rescued from being scrapped. Thanks, Corey, I really appreciate it! I had a great time chatting about the "old days" with Corey when I visited his home to pick up the LA-36. I intend to use this as the console terminal for my PDP 11/34 system. It's a lot more appropriate than the Heathkit H19 currently serving that purpose. I got the LA-36 home on Sunday, but didn't have time to do much with it until yesterday. I did a basic cleaning -- getting rid of dust and cobwebs. In general the terminal was in pretty good shape, and despite some dust and spider leftovers, it was quite clean inside. One of the first things I noticed was that the main controller board looked different than I expected, and on closer inspection, I saw that it wasn't a DEC board. It said "SELANAR CORP." and "GRAPHICS II" in silkscreen on the board. There are sockets for eight 2708 EPROMs, of which 6 are filled (I was worried that some were missing because of the empty sockets), with round stickers over the windows that say "SELANAR". There are three sockets for some kind of RAM (haven't identified it yet), of which only one socket is filled. There appear to be two processors, one made by Western Digital, and another made by Fairchild. Both appear to have onboard EPROM, as they have windows on them that are painted over with a thick black paint. I checked all of the fuses, and they were good. I unplugged everything from the control board (keyboard connector, printhead drive, carriage drive stepper, pin-feed drive stepper), serial connector, and a couple of power connectors, and powered up the power supply, and found that all of the voltages were good, with minimum ripple. I did a close visual on the controller board, and it looked good...no debris or signs of overheating/blown components. I also checked out the solenoid and stepper driver board, and it also looked good. I wiped down the carriage rail to remove dust and grime, and then oiled it lightly. The carriage moved smoothly in both directions, but the ribbon advance mechanism seemed a bit gummed up, which I figured I could address later, since the ribbon is all dried out anyway. I plugged all of the connectors back in, and put some paper in it, then used a variac to slowly power it up. It didn't appear to like being slowly powered up, as the steppers got all wonky - but, I didn't get any smoke, so I quickly ramped the power back down, plugged the DECWriter directly into mains, and powered it up with the power switch. The carriage went left until it hit the stop with a bang...and sat there with the stepper humming for a nervous 3/4 or so second, then the carriage moved to the right a bit, and things got quiet (other than the hum of the power supply). I set the machine to local mode, and hit a key, and the pins hit the ribbon/paper, and the printhead moved to the next print location. After a familiar delay, the printhead moved to the right to allow the character (which was invisible because of the bad ribbon) to be seen. I typed all of the characters on the keyboard, and everything seems to work -- linefeed, carriage return, backspace, space, repeat, bell(^G), etc. So, the unit appears to be in good shape, though I don't know if the characters print correctly until I can find a ribbon for it. I'm quite happy that it seems to be generally alive. Now, on to the point of my posting: Does anyone know anything about Selanar's Graphics II board for the LA-36? BitSavers doesn't have anything that I could find. Google nets old ads and product announcements in trade rags of the day (1982-ish). Selanar also made graphics engine boards for VT100's, Televideo 950's, and various other printing and display terminals. One advertisement I saw showed an LA-36 that had a pretty printout of a Spirograph-like drawing. I would love to find some documentation on how the graphics work. I found some information relating to FORTRAN libraries that provided routines for "MOVE", "DRAW", and various other graphics primitives, but no real documentation. I'd love to find an operator's guide or a programming guide to figure out how to make the graphics work. I plan on pulling the ROMs and dumping them, and passing them to BitSavers. Anyone out there have any information on this thing that they could share? I'm going to do some more cleanup, test the serial port to see if it works, and track down a ribbon for it (I have a lot of calculator ribbons that I may put onto the spools for the DECWriter just as a temporary measure). The serial cable has had the connector cut off, so I'll have to figure out the pinout and put a connector on the end. Plenty of stuff to keep me busy. There is a DB-25F connector on the Selanar board that isn't plugged into anything. I'm wondering what it might be for, so I may hook a terminal up to it and see if I can get any kind of response from it. Hopefully someone out there will have some docs for this thing that can eliminate the mysteries of this relic. Thanks, Rick Bensene From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Sep 12 06:21:19 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:21:19 +0200 Subject: Free TU80 tape drives In-Reply-To: <504F4C15.5060802@vaxen.net> References: <504F4C15.5060802@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <201209121121.q8CBLJDS025334@ls-al.eu> Doc wrote: > > I have 3 DEC TU80 9-track drives that need to get gone. They are > located in Austin TX and have been in storage since 2009. > > If you want them and can either pick them up, arrange to have them > picked up, or pay for me to do so, they're yours. I would much prefer > that they go as a set, but this beggar won't be choosy. > > All three are in their original short racks. I have at least one > Unibus controller and cable, maybe a couple of each, and a good handful > of untested tapes with write rings. > .. Goddammit.. reiche the Netherlands From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 08:03:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:03:10 +0100 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 September 2012 02:11, Richard Lynch wrote: > has a dual 8? floppy drive 8?? 8^2 or 64" floppies? At over 5 foot wide, they would indeed be pretty damned floppy. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 10:03:13 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:03:13 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <618bc5378cbb2e4e409876454dc4358c.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the Gavilan as a "laptop" computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up until then, the term was "notebook" computer. Anyone have an earlier cite? This was discussed on another list a few years ago and, as you'd imagine, no conclusion was drawn. Around '83-'84 there are several magazine and newspaper references to "lap-sized" computers. Here's a July 7, 1984 reference: http://groups.google.com/group/fa.info-mac/browse_thread/thread/fb7a9bc9eaacb7bc/e4d5ba56f31b2e7?q=laptop#0e4d5ba56f31b2e7 From tommie at fox.se Wed Sep 12 09:00:03 2012 From: tommie at fox.se (Tommie Mademark) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:00:03 +0200 Subject: Looking for schematics for Data General MV/4000 DC Power Supply Message-ID: <002101cd90ee$e8fc56c0$baf50440$@se> Do any of you have the following schematics for a Data General MV/4000 DC (or MV/4000 SC or MV/7800 DCX): Modular Power Supply, part number 5 021847. This power supply is a 15 inch board and is probably used on other systems as well. 300 VNR module circuit board, part number 5 21838. The MV/4000 DC http://www.foxdata.com/blog/?p=702 Tommie Mademark My Data General blog: http://www.foxdata.com/blog/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 11:46:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 09:46:27 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <618bc5378cbb2e4e409876454dc4358c.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: , <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com>, <618bc5378cbb2e4e409876454dc4358c.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <505059F3.7896.4D141D@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 11:03, Evan Koblentz wrote: > This was discussed on another list a few years ago and, as you'd > imagine, no conclusion was drawn. ...So sitting on the power supplies of a Cray I would make it a "lap- bottom" computer? --Chuck From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Sep 12 11:55:35 2012 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:55:35 -0600 Subject: Surplus monitor Message-ID: <9959E118468F455E8C0A5D4B985D0B3A@RANGER1> While cleaning up some, I've found I have an HP Monochrome Graphics Display E Ordering# D1181W Serial# 2919Y03783 pwr input CGA input (DB9 plug) about 19 lbs (plus packaging weight) If anyone has interest, $hipping cost only. Orem UT 84097 Keven Miller From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 12:13:17 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:13:17 -0300 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died References: , <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com>, <618bc5378cbb2e4e409876454dc4358c.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <505059F3.7896.4D141D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <450B32622C8D4163A6642AC9180E58C3@tababook> >> This was discussed on another list a few years ago and, as you'd >> imagine, no conclusion was drawn. > ...So sitting on the power supplies of a Cray I would make it a "lap- > bottom" computer? Ta-da! Tshhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 13:01:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120912105538.A62353@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Does anyone have a reference to the earliest use of the term laptop to > describe their product? I would think that would help clear the > definition perhaps. Obviously what end users ended up calling luggables > were simply "portable" as the marketing term. It was a portable all > enclosed version of a desktop. Pretty cool you can take your portable > computer with you in itself but obviously portable power/batteries were > a separate time frame. > Is it the original intent that laptop meant self powered or is that only > us reading too much into the details from todays expectations? YES. On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for external battery power! When queried about how large the battery would be, Lee answered, "How big is your CAR? It is not intended for portable use on batteries." I thought that that interchange was on Computer Chronicles, but I can't find it. So, he wasn't competing for the "first ridiculous laptop" title. (BTW, Lee was driving a 1977 Honda Accord) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 13:10:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> References: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120912110340.E62353@shell.lmi.net> "Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing. I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with two handles on each end. "Luggable" was a deliberately negative term used for "portable" computers. When the first Compaq came out, I took one to Hawaii. Although there was plenty of room for it (I had a freebie first class ticket!), there was a lot of discussion of whether it should be allowed in cabin. Lots of whispered conversation, with the phrase "sewing machine" in most sentences. I added write and format support to XenoCopy in Hawaii. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 13:14:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry>, <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I believe that Manny Fernandez referred to the Gavilan as a "laptop" > computer. That would be, what?, around 1983. Up until then, the > term was "notebook" computer. I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with, "what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?" and then much MUCH later, "netbook" "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:35:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:35:54 +0100 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12 September 2012 19:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used > to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with, > "what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?" > > and then much MUCH later, "netbook" > > "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my experience. The physical distinction is 1 thing, the marketing one another. Physically, only when they shrank to the size of an actual paper notebook did the term start to appear, in the early-to-mid 1990s. This meant an approximately A4 (or possibly foolscap or "legal" in the Colonies) footprint. The first ones were a little bit bigger - the manufacturers were being a bit disingenuous - and were of course /very/ thick by the standards of paper-pads - 3" or so thick wasn't uncommon. The 21st century distinction, when the term "laptop" started being actively deprecated, was because of heat output. It is of course entirely reasonable to put something called a "laptop" on your lap, but the gigaHertz-era machines often ran too hot for this and would either burn your thighs or overheat as their underside air-intakes were blocked. They were designed to be used on a desktop, table or other rigid flat smooth surface - not carpet, bed, duvet, sofa etc. Thus the manufacturers started quickly removing the word "lap" from their publicity information, as they started having to do warranty returns and compensate people with burned legs... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 13:39:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:39:07 -0400 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/11/12 6:50 PM, Mouse wrote: > >> Does ftp.bitsavers.org just not support anonymous FTP, or is something >> broken? >> > > there is no anonymous ftp on bitsavers > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/teac/FC-1/ Cool! Thanks! I have one of these but haven't ever tried to hook it up to anything. > if you dig around, a bunch of folks have figured out the mode select > commmands to set the format. I did a quick search but couldn't find > the teac document that describes the actual SCSI commands supported. >From what you've posted, I see that it supports three modes - described (in *raw* capacity terms) as 1MB (on DD media), 1.6MB, and 2.0MB (on HD media). It seems that the drive supports FM or MFM-formatted sectors at 256 bytes per sector, 512, and 1024, with as many sectors as appropriate per track (so a "normal" PC DD floppy would be 9 sectors of 512 bytes per track - called "720K" commonly). Besides the "obvious" application of reading/writing an ordinary "DOS Floppy" (FAT12 filesystem, "720K" or "1.44MB" capacities), and the uncommon higher-density floppy format, what sorts of disks from what sort of systems would be useful to read or write with this drive? CBM 8-bit-systems disks commonly use 256 bytes per sector, but they aren't FM or MFM, they are GCR. Are there any CP/M systems that used 3.5" media that this could read or write disks for? I don't tend to use floppies on a daily basis, but I'm always interested in ways to archive old disks or create new disks from image files to use with old equipment. -ethan From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Sep 12 13:44:52 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:44:52 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: There wasn't a neat chronological shrinking of size. You could play lunar lander on an HP-65 in 1974, and it fit in the palm of your hand and was battery-powered. The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers. The GRiD compass was cool for more than just its size and clamshell design. Bubble memory. Plasma display. Magnesium shell. It was lust inducing. :-) On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:35 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 September 2012 19:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was used > > to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at Comdex with, > > "what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and 'notebook'?" > > > > and then much MUCH later, "netbook" > > > > "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" > > I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my > experience. > > The physical distinction is 1 thing, the marketing one another. > > Physically, only when they shrank to the size of an actual paper > notebook did the term start to appear, in the early-to-mid 1990s. This > meant an approximately A4 (or possibly foolscap or "legal" in the > Colonies) footprint. The first ones were a little bit bigger - the > manufacturers were being a bit disingenuous - and were of course > /very/ thick by the standards of paper-pads - 3" or so thick wasn't > uncommon. > > The 21st century distinction, when the term "laptop" started being > actively deprecated, was because of heat output. It is of course > entirely reasonable to put something called a "laptop" on your lap, > but the gigaHertz-era machines often ran too hot for this and would > either burn your thighs or overheat as their underside air-intakes > were blocked. They were designed to be used on a desktop, table or > other rigid flat smooth surface - not carpet, bed, duvet, sofa etc. > Thus the manufacturers started quickly removing the word "lap" from > their publicity information, as they started having to do warranty > returns and compensate people with burned legs... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 13:58:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of "notebook". It was about the size of one. I got 2 :) Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a hoot! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Sep 12 14:00:59 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:00:59 -0400 Subject: Selling AMT DAP 610 Message-ID: <2D928B5C-F1D1-4262-972F-42B752EC7646@colourfull.com> Hi All, I'm interested in selling my AMT DAP 610 and I thought I would offer it up here first before ebay. Here's a quick pic http://www.borsuk.info/ebay/dap.jpg The unit is located in Port Huron, MI. 48060. I have a ton of manuals , software and even the Sun workstations that hook to it. I'm not giving it away but if you would like to shoot me over an offer I'm willing to talk. I'm unemployed right now and have been for the past couple of months so unfortunately I have to pair down some of my things. The DAP has been stored inside and I'm the second owner of it. Anyways, if anyone has an interest, please let me know. Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 14:08:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: to the gentleman w/gobs of 7220s, please send me a private Message-ID: <1347476914.9911.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> with your requested price and location. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 12 14:12:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Sep 12 14:19:25 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:19:25 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The late 80's saw several small computers -- the Minisport, the NEC Ultralite, and the even smaller Poqet PC and Atari Portfolio. Not sure who made the first one with color display. The net says it was the Compaq LTE-286. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of "notebook". It was > about the size of one. I got 2 :) > > Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color > laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I > saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a > hoot! > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 14:22:26 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for an Apricot F1 or F1e Message-ID: <1347477746.3056.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> preferably an F1. I actually hate many English computers, being they used a lot of ASICs earlier then us Yanks did (seemingly. My Nimbus motherboard has all sorts of horrid crap on it). But it's too cute to pass up. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:31:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:31:36 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> References: , <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <505080A8.29333.E44466@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 11:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > I never heard the term "notebook" until much later, and then it was > used to refer to smaller than usual laptops. We played around at > Comdex with, "what is the dividing line between 'laptop' and > 'notebook'?" I'd heard the term "Notebook" used before "Laptop" in the case of systems such as the TRS-80 Model 11 and even the HP-75. Not exactly what we mean by the term now. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 14:33:09 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:33:09 +0000 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1878283939-1347478389-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-427764192-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Color portable the first I believe was commodores sx-64. Not sure about laptop but I do recall early color compaq notebooks with a color screen being similar with a huge plastic border and wondering why the screen is so small vs the case. Re:trs-80 model 100 I do see references calling it a laptop in some software ads, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tofu Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:58:34 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died the Zenith Minisports may have spurred the usage of "notebook". It was about the size of one. I got 2 :) Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! I saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was a hoot! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:35:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:35:25 -0700 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <5050818D.28283.E7C3C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 14:39, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Besides the "obvious" application of reading/writing an ordinary "DOS > Floppy" (FAT12 filesystem, "720K" or "1.44MB" capacities), and the > uncommon higher-density floppy format, what sorts of disks from what > sort of systems would be useful to read or write with this drive? CBM > 8-bit-systems disks commonly use 256 bytes per sector, but they aren't > FM or MFM, they are GCR. Are there any CP/M systems that used 3.5" > media that this could read or write disks for? Yes, but you don't run into them a lot unless you're in the CNC or lab equipment business. For example, the Hitachi HPC-6000 or the Mitsubishi EDM-J. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 14:37:38 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1347478658.18801.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Mouse > "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say. C: Furthermore... ?was there or wasn't there a special name given to the Geode based One Laptop per Tiny Third World Hacker units. My battery is about to die, I could use one of the hand cranks about now! LOL LOL LOL From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 14:42:23 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mr. Iam Primus Message-ID: <1347478943.39557.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> remember this post? --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Chris M wrote: >? Also picked up a big huge square HP monitor. Don't know > the part # offhand, but has a datecode of 1984. First time > I've seen one of these. And I've seen a lot of monitors. I'm > sure I'm hoping in vain that it takes digital rgb. Awesome score! I've been looking for one of those for years. It's a fixed frequency analog RGB monitor, and was used by several flavors of workstations (IBM, SUN and HP, I do believe). Awesome picture on that thing. -Ian Strange for me to be asking you, but if you know what kind of monitor this is, and have specific details (scan rates preferably, digital or analog inputs), I would greatly appreciate it. Strange that I didn't provide the model number (this much distinguishes it from every other workstation monitor I've seen, it's a big burly rectangle), but it might be for the same reason I can't get to it now, it's buried, and very heavy, and I got no business lifting anything really. I'll get to it soon though. ?God I hope it's an early digital monitor. I plugged something into it before I buried it, and even the tech who I bought it from said he didn't get any positive results from it. I know I'm a goon. This I know. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 14:44:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:44:07 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: , <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 19:35, Liam Proven wrote: >> I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my > experience. Your experience (or memory) obviously has dropped a bit or two. "Notebook" came before "Laptop" as witnessed by this 1983 ad for the Epson HX-20: http://www.bambootrading.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1050&cat=210 A "laptop" computer that came 15 years before then (1968) probably would have been flesh-and-blood. Not a bad thought, but I don't think anyone used the term then. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 14:28:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:28:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 12, 12 09:24:47 am Message-ID: > Some things to watch for on the LA36 > > 1. If you get a light or missing dot do not assume it's one of the print > head solenoids or a driver transistor. The synthetic agate through which the > wires run to the print point were prone to get gummed up. Take the head off > and wash it in alcohol. Look out for the agate falling out when you wash it. Do not dismantle th printhead (The same applies to the LA100 head, and many Epson heads, and doubtless others). Dismantling it is easy. Reassembling it is next to impossible. The print pins (wires) were originally mcuh longer, they were fed through the guides, the head was put toghter, the wirees were then cut/groudn to length. if you take the head apart, you will never get the wries to stay through all the guides (due to the return springs) whill you puti together. Oh, the wires are some metal that is quite brittle and which will not take solder. Don't ask... The only heads I would attemtp to dismantle i nthe field and there ones in the Sanders variopritners, the Model 43 Teletype one (for which there is a dismantling procedure given i nthe service manual) and the old Epson ones (TX80, also used in Commoder 2022, etc) where the front section cotnaing the print pins is a complete unit that comes off with a retainer plate to keep the wires in position. Don;t dismantle that but you can take the solenoid section apart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 14:08:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:08:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: multi-layer circuit boards In-Reply-To: <1347391775.36032.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 11, 12 12:29:35 pm Message-ID: > > are you supposed to be able to tell just by looking at them if they have mu= Not always, but there are often a lot of clues. The first is to hold the boad up to the light. Often there is s digit on each layer -- inclduign the outside layers -- ans the other layers are clear in that area. So by holding it up to the ligth you can see all the digits, oen per layer. That was origianlly done for that reason, of course, so that they could check that no layer had been left out when the board was made. The second trick is to look for things that must 'go somewhere, but don't appear to. Vias that have traces on one side of the board and not the other. Pins on ICs (particularly power and ground pins) that don;'t have traces going to them. Things like that. > ltiple layers? Assuming you have one w/multiple layers, and I guess I alrea= > dy know the answer, it's a huge headache to try and draw up schematics (or = I'ev traced out schematics for many multi-layer boards. I don't find it much worse than palin double-sided boards. What I do is : Usolder anything that will test as a short. This means any switches that can't be turned fully off (like anything with a changeover contact), relays (for the same reason), most inducators and transformera, etc. Then I manke a list of the main components o nthe board -- and their subsections. I might have : U1 a b c d 74LS00 U2 Z180 U3 27C128 U4 a b c d e f 74LS04 ... K1 Coil a b (that's a relay with 2 sets of contacts) And so on. Then I try to get some idea of the fucntionality of the board. If there's a processor I strart by finding the reset and clock circuits, and draw those out. As I draw a sectoion of a component, I corss it off the list (that saves me from drawing otu the same bit twice !). I woudl then draw out the processor chip, thus identifying the buses. THen the mmeory devices, and sort out the address decoding (or maybe the other way round, you can trace back fro mteh chip select pins on SRAMs and EPROMs before you've drawn tohsoe devices). And so on. To trace the conneftions I use a good continuity tester. 'Good' meaning it won't bee fooled by a forward-biased diode junction, and that it's quick to respond. THat way I can put the proble on one IC pin and stroke the other probe round every other conencituon if I have to. Yes, it takes time, but it's not impossible. Some people probalbgy use a computer to keep track of this. I find a pen and paper works perfectly well. > duplicate the artwork rather) w/only photographs of the top and bottom of t= If you don't ahve the board itself, you have a _lot_ of work to do. The outside layers are a start (is the picture of the component side a bare board, or do you have traces disappearing under components? The latter is alot worse You can probagly work out some of the cirucity form the traces you can see (althoguh I have seen at least one PCB where the outside layers were the power and ground palnes, with almopst no visible signal connections), but you won't get everything. If you don't ahve the scheamtics, you will have to guess, and that's always dangerous.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 14:37:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:37:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912110340.E62353@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 12, 12 11:10:50 am Message-ID: > > "Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing. > > I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with > two handles on each end. Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is that the former is not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since you have to set it up in the location it is to be used. One version of the double-rack Philips P850 minicompuer (which weighs around 50kg) had a plastic outser casing with handles. It was claiemd 4 people could carryi t betweem them. I guess when many other computers came in 6' racks or air conditioned rooms, this was 'portable'. And IIRC HP solde carrying handle kits for the HP9100 and HP9800 series of machines. All mains powered machines, of course. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 14:49:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Besides the "obvious" application of reading/writing an ordinary "DOS > Floppy" (FAT12 filesystem, "720K" or "1.44MB" capacities), and the > uncommon higher-density floppy format, what sorts of disks from > what sort of systems would be useful to read or write with this drive? > CBM 8-bit-systems disks commonly use 256 bytes per sector, but > they aren't FM or MFM, they are GCR. Are there any CP/M systems > that used 3.5" media that this could read or write disks for? I don't have convenient access today to my files; I don't remember for sure which of these were CP/M, but there were a few: Amacom/Amada ; used for some CNC, even currently! Apricot F1 ? Apricot DS ? AT&T WP7700 SS ? AT&T WP7700 DS ? Bondwell 2 ? CDI DOT ? CPT CP/M-80 ? Digitech ? Epson Geneva PX-8 (40T/Side) (67.5 TPI You would need to double step, and might not be able to RE-write (like using a 1.2M drive for 360K)) HP 3.5 CP/M IBS BTCE ? Jonos Mitsubishi A6GPP ? Mountain Side MSC-ICO ? NEC 8201 Netway 1500 SSDD ? Netway 1500 DSDD ? Olivetti ETV-250 ? Panasonic KXE700 ? Sanyo MBC 4050 ? Sears (Nakajima) WP ? Silver Reed CS1000 ? Sony M35 CP/M SS Sony M35 CP/M DS Sony SMC70 3.5 Spectravideo SV738 X'PRESS ? Tandy 600 ? Xscripe CP/M From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 14:56:28 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:56:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <1347476314.8149.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120912125316.I66443@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Incidentally does anyone remember one of the first color > laptops/notebooks. It was a ~3" LCD in the middle of a much larger area! > I saw a picture of it in Computer Shopper around 1993/4 I guess. It was > a hoot! Don't know which one. But, . . . The Gavilan was a B&W MS-DOS (not quite PC-DOS) machine. It came with an EIGHT line by 80 character screen! Then they came out with a new model with a SIXTEEN line by 80 character screen. It also had composit external video at 25 x 80 Updates to its MS-DOS 2.11 continued after the company went under! (Revision J, K, L)? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 14:57:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 12:57:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120912125651.U66443@shell.lmi.net> > > "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: > It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say. We have a winner! The definitive answer. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 14:57:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 20:57:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: from "Doug Salot" at Sep 12, 12 11:44:52 am Message-ID: > The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers. And yet, along wit hthe similar-sizd (but slightly earlier) Epson HX20 machine, and the similar-age Epson PX8 and PX4 machines, I've only ever ehard it called a 'laptop', not a 'notebook'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 15:17:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:17:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for an Apricot F1 or F1e In-Reply-To: <1347477746.3056.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 12, 12 12:22:26 pm Message-ID: > > preferably an F1. I actually hate many English computers, being they I know what you mean.... :-) > used a lot of ASICs earlier then us Yanks did (seemingly. My Nimbus > motherboard has all sorts of horrid crap on it). But it's too cute to > pass up. I didn;t think Apricot were too bad in this respect. The original Apricto doesn't seem to cotnain any ASICs, although there are programmed microcontrolelrs in the keyboard and in the floppy drives (the latter being SOny units), it's the stnadard Sony-progammed microcontroller). There isan 8089 in there, though... I didn't think the F1 had much custom silcion in it either. I think I have the tech mnaul for it somewhere, I can check for you. The expanison cards for the Apricot do seem to cotnain a lot of ASICs, particularly thigns like the colour video card. Not all UK comptuers ar full of custom silicon. In particular : Research Machines : 380Z, 480Z are OK, Nimbus is full of ASICs Newbrain : A Cop 400 microcontroller is the only custom part that I remember : Acorn : 'System' machines and the Atom are OK., The BBC micro and B+ have 2 ULAs. Second processros have a ULA each (the 'tube ULA'). The ACW, etc, therefore cotnain 3 ULAs -- 2 on the B+ board, one o nthe coprocesor. THe Electron is designed round a ULA. Torch : The Beeb corpocessors don't have Tube ULAs, and are OK as a rsult. The XXX also has no custom parts otehr than PALs (and the boot ROM). IIRC the quad-X has a custom control processor thing for which there is a data sheet. WCW. The MG1 and Hitec seem to have no ULAs.PALs, yes, ROMs, yes, microcontrollers maybe. Sinclair : MK14 and ZX80 are OK, everything later (including peripherals) are full of ULAs Jupiter Cantab : The Ace cotnains no ULAs Amstrad : Stuffed full of the unpleasant chips! Dragon : No ULAs that I have ever seen And that's just the ones I can remember... -tony From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 15:32:56 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:32:56 -0500 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I was going to also post a reference to this 1984 article (in 84 via google searches the term laptop and notebook are both fairly prevalent) http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n1/86_The_Teleram_T3000.phpThere's a reference but only referring to itself as a notebook size "first truly portable personal computer" says the ad of a Teleram 3000 in the (Vol. 16, No. 39 ) 9/27/82 Computerworld magazine on page 104. I'd never heard of a Teleram hence the other link earlier in trying to figure out who they were and what it did. http://tinyurl.com/9hk7sw8 is interesting as well. I'm trying to find more information on what this book is and the system they're speaking about. Uses the term laptop as well as notebook and I think but can't quite tell the book is from 83? but it has a bunch of new copyright dates as well at the beginning. Unfortunately it's in a language that I don't read. Fun that you can understand half the words though contextually and computer wise. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Sep 12 15:51:36 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 13:51:36 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: <20120912110340.E62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I haven't seen the handles for the HP-9800, but I do have the case for the IBM 5100. Google found no pictures of the case. Outrageous. And fixed.... http://i47.tinypic.com/2yzlkz5.jpg On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > "Portable" was widely [mis]used by marketing. > > > > I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with > > two handles on each end. > > Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is that the former is > not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since > you have to set it up in the location it is to be used. > > One version of the double-rack Philips P850 minicompuer (which weighs > around 50kg) had a plastic outser casing with handles. It was claiemd 4 > people could carryi t betweem them. I guess when many other computers > came in 6' racks or air conditioned rooms, this was 'portable'. > > And IIRC HP solde carrying handle kits for the HP9100 and HP9800 series > of machines. All mains powered machines, of course. > > -tony > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Sep 12 16:01:52 2012 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:01:52 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe it was a US thing. 1984 article on 14 notebook computers: http://www.atarimagazines.com/creative/v10n1/38_14_notebook_computers_in_.php On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers. > > And yet, along wit hthe similar-sizd (but slightly earlier) Epson HX20 > machine, and the similar-age Epson PX8 and PX4 machines, I've only ever > ehard it called a 'laptop', not a 'notebook'. > > -tony > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 16:22:28 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:22:28 -0500 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop = Last Modified September 11 2012.. ok who's cheating? ;-) Per that research/text: "As 8-bit CPU machines became widely accepted, the number of portables increased rapidly. The Osborne 1 , released in 1981, used the Zilog Z80 and weighed 23.6 pounds (10.7 kg). It had no battery, a 5 in (13 cm) CRTscreen, and dual 5.25 in (13.3 cm) single-density floppy drives. In the same year the first laptop-sized portable computer, the Epson HX-20, was announced.[5] The Epson had a LCD screen, a rechargeable battery, and a calculator-size printer in a 1.6 kg (3.5 lb) chassis. Both Tandy/RadioShackand HP also produced portable computers of varying designs during this period.[6] [7] The first laptops using the flip form factor appeared in the early 1980s. The Dulmont Magnum was released in Australia in 1981?82, but was not marketed internationally until 1984?85. The US$8,150 (US$19,630 today) GRiD Compass 1100, released in 1982, was used at NASA and by the military among others. The Gavilan SC, released in 1983, was the first computer described as a "laptop" by its manufacturer.[8] " From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 16:33:47 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:33:47 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> >> "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" > It's a pretty picky and pointless division Strongly agree. Laptop / notebook / whatever, and certain list members' sarcasm aside, a computer isn't a laptop (by the real-world definition) if it only works when plugged in. The end. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 16:32:38 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 16:32:38 -0500 Subject: Anyone with a manual or repair reference for Corvallis Microtechnology (CMT PC-5) (pc5-eb) Message-ID: I'm not easily finding any good references to repair/disassembly for these PC-5 systems. They're a hand held computer that apparently has a minimal dos 5.0 load and an 8088? chip so it's "compatible" with already compiled programs you could technically transfer to it via the serial port and kermit protocol (one I have works and counts 640K ram which is amusing) the other just makes a horrid buzzing noise when plugged into a power source. Obviously I'm guessing the battery or a cap is shot inside but was hoping to look at some guide to repairing these. Unfortunately most of what I find leads to the fairly nondescript corvallis website which no longer references these units and certainly seems like they used to just have you ship them the unit and fix it for hundreds of dollars. Anyone play with one of these? This http://www.cmtinc.com/techhelp/pc5faq.html is pretty much the most information I've come across so far but nothing really about the insides. They have an ftp I looked briefly through but it also seems to concentrate on using the newer models and not anything regarding repair that I could find. Really I would think they'd have something somewhere on replacing the battery as an FRU but perhaps they weren't intended to be field replaceable? It seems like it was popular with folks doing geological and forestry studies. Certainly looks more like something you'd find in a warehouse than a home though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 16:33:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net>, <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> > >> I agree. "Laptops" came 10-15y before "notebook computers" in my > > experience. On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Your experience (or memory) obviously has dropped a bit or two. > "Notebook" came before "Laptop" as witnessed by this 1983 ad for the > Epson HX-20: > http://www.bambootrading.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1050&cat=210 > A "laptop" computer that came 15 years before then (1968) probably > would have been flesh-and-blood. Not a bad thought, but I don't > think anyone used the term then. The HC20 (and its USA subversion HX20)was sometimes called a notebook, as was the Radio Shack Model 100. Do those infringe on Apple and Samsung's "rights"? Then the term faded out for years. Long after the advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was re-introduced by marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 16:37:01 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:37:01 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912105538.A62353@shell.lmi.net> References: <403bf2f717c56fc303b6a66a3ece7897.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120912105538.A62353@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5051007D.6060404@snarc.net> > On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for external > battery power! Osborne never did ship a battery, though. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 16:52:48 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 14:52:48 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> References: , <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5050A1C0.9892.1658C49@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 17:33, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Laptop / notebook / whatever, and certain list members' sarcasm aside, > a computer isn't a laptop (by the real-world definition) if it only > works when plugged in. ISTR that on some of the early Grid models, you removed the AC supply from the unit and substituted a battery pack. Does that count? How about those models offered with an external battery pack? --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 16:55:28 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:55:28 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505104D0.1050306@snarc.net> > >>> the same year the first laptop-sized portable computer, the Epson > HX-20 That's not true. The Husky Hunter was shipping in '81. And if the author refers only to "laptop-sized portable computer" then s/he should consider the Donner 3500. > >> The Dulmont Magnum was released in Australia in 1981?82 I don't think that is true, or at least, I've seen no proof. If it is true, then it beats Grid, because it had a battery. Rant: It makes me want to bang my head against a wall when people write whatever they happen to hear / prefer as "first". From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 17:04:40 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:04:40 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net>, <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <505106F8.4040504@snarc.net> >>> Long after the advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was re-introduced by marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops. Arrrghhhhh! Everyone stop this madness. It doesn't fucking matter what particular word we all individually think was "first" or "right". In the real world (gasp .... which some of us should get out of our labs and go visit sometime, it's nice, there are women), everyone knows what a friggin' laptop computer is .... and it's got batteries. Compass doesn't. From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 12 17:10:58 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:10:58 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <5050A1C0.9892.1658C49@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> <5050A1C0.9892.1658C49@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50510872.9000500@snarc.net> > ISTR that on some of the early Grid models, you removed the AC supply from the unit and substituted a battery pack. Does that count? It wasn't an option for the 1100/1101 (that '82 models; only difference between them was the amount of memory.) By the time Grid offered that, other battery-powered clamshells existed. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 17:10:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:10:17 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> References: , <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5050A5D9.9084.1758CC8@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 14:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > The HC20 (and its USA subversion HX20)was sometimes called a notebook, > as was the Radio Shack Model 100. Do those infringe on Apple and > Samsung's "rights"? Then the term faded out for years. Long after the > advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was re-introduced by > marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops. And so it goes--round and round. Have a look at a 1972 microprocessor, the AES-80: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/aes/AES- 80_Microprocessor_Brochure.pdf Says right there in black-and-white: "microprocessor". --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 17:10:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:10:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120912143414.A67875@shell.lmi.net> > > I gave my parents their first color TV. It was a used "portable", with > > two handles on each end. On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Was it a delta gun or a PIL CRT? The reason I ask is that the former is > not sterctily portable (no matter what hendles are on the cabinet) since > you have to set it up in the location it is to be used. It worked (albeit it had never worked very well) after a friend and I hefted it into place. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 17:13:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 15:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120912151248.A67875@shell.lmi.net> > > The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers. although it never caught on, I once heard it called a "notepad" computer From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 17:32:13 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:32:13 -0500 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <505106F8.4040504@snarc.net> References: <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <50508397.686.EFBA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912134359.Y67875@shell.lmi.net> <505106F8.4040504@snarc.net> Message-ID: Meh.. I've seen webcam shots of the real world. The graphics aren't that good. What I'm interested in is when I'm in these chatrooms, say not tied to my desk, would you say I'm talking to these (wo)men via a laptop and what's the first laptop I could chat to .. j/k Just some more gas on the fire http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/laptop but seriously.. how the hell do they find it responsible to put the first known use of the world "laptop" as 1984 and site absolutely no reference?! Regardless I was curious just about the marketed term to predict what the implied technology would have been. I unfortunately don't agree that a laptop computer would have to be battery powered. It would just have to be operationally useable on ones lap. I'm impressed with a lot of the found examples though. Some interesting and I think useful comments. On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Long after the advent of "laptop" computers, "notebook" was re-introduced >>>> by marketing to refer to small[er] clamshell laptops. >>>> >>> > Arrrghhhhh! Everyone stop this madness. It doesn't fucking matter what > particular word we all individually think was "first" or "right". In the > real world (gasp .... which some of us should get out of our labs and go > visit sometime, it's nice, there are women), everyone knows what a friggin' > laptop computer is .... and it's got batteries. Compass doesn't. > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 12 17:33:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912125651.U66443@shell.lmi.net> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120912125651.U66443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201209122233.SAA11572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> "What is the dividing line between 'notebook' and 'netbook'?" >> It's a pretty picky and pointless division, so, "nitbook", I'd say. > We have a winner! The definitive answer. :-) I tried to come up with something clever and/or witty to say about "notbook", "natbook", "nutbook", etc, but pretty much failed. But "nitbook" was too good to pass up. Mouse From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 17:42:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 23:42:59 +0100 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <20120912151248.A67875@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120912151248.A67875@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12 September 2012 23:13, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > The TRS-80 model 100 was one of the earlier popular "notebook" computers. > > although it never caught on, I once heard it called a "notepad" computer Hmmm. To me that means a handheld device upon which you write with a stylus. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ray at arachelian.com Wed Sep 12 17:53:41 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:53:41 -0400 Subject: TI Microlaser toner, Netware books Message-ID: <50511275.4070808@arachelian.com> While cleaning up, I found some toner for the TI Microlaser. (I no longer have the printer as it died a long time ago.) Also have some Netware books. Contact me off list if you're interested. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 17:52:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:52:51 -0400 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> On 09/12/2012 03:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Besides the "obvious" application of reading/writing an ordinary "DOS >> Floppy" (FAT12 filesystem, "720K" or "1.44MB" capacities), and the >> uncommon higher-density floppy format, what sorts of disks from >> what sort of systems would be useful to read or write with this drive? >> CBM 8-bit-systems disks commonly use 256 bytes per sector, but >> they aren't FM or MFM, they are GCR. Are there any CP/M systems >> that used 3.5" media that this could read or write disks for? > I don't have convenient access today to my files; I don't remember for > sure which of these were CP/M, but there were a few: > Amacom/Amada ; used for some CNC, even currently! > Apricot F1 ? > Apricot DS ? Apricot was a Apple clone if memory serves. > AT&T WP7700 SS ? > AT&T WP7700 DS ? > Bondwell 2 ? > CDI DOT ? > CPT CP/M-80 ? Depends, I"ve seen both CP/M and MSDOS version differing in cpu used. > Digitech ? > Epson Geneva PX-8 (40T/Side) (67.5 TPI You would need to double step, > and might not be able to RE-write (like using a 1.2M drive for 360K)) The PX-8 was definitely a CP/M machine and I have three. the 3.5" disk unit was a "normal" format that could be read on PC hardware. > HP 3.5 CP/M > IBS BTCE ? > Jonos > Mitsubishi A6GPP ? > Mountain Side MSC-ICO ? > NEC 8201 It ran cpm and maybe MSX. In the list.. There were a lot of wild flyers out there. Some were sorta clones and some tweaked private label units. Allison > Netway 1500 SSDD ? > Netway 1500 DSDD ? > Olivetti ETV-250 ? > Panasonic KXE700 ? > Sanyo MBC 4050 ? > Sears (Nakajima) WP ? > Silver Reed CS1000 ? > Sony M35 CP/M SS > Sony M35 CP/M DS > Sony SMC70 3.5 > Spectravideo SV738 X'PRESS ? > Tandy 600 ? > Xscripe CP/M > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 17:59:32 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:59:32 -0500 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <201209122233.SAA11572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120912125651.U66443@shell.lmi.net> <201209122233.SAA11572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >From another debate (I guess it's just seasonal) but seriously.. you'd think the term would have been trademarked or patent applied, etc somewhere that a company officially called a device a notebook or laptop?! regardless from another long winded thread points out an interesting system I'd never previously heard of (probably should have though) http://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm MCM/70 from Micro Computer Machines Inc. Although the years referenced between 3 different sites I've read about say it was out in 1972, 73 (wikipedia), and 74 (old-computers) but argument sake aside. Apparently it had a 1 line display, programmed APL, and per the articles actually did have an option for battery power. Timeline wise certainly makes a good effort at the argued technology. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 12 18:01:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5050FFBB.6000909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <201209122301.TAA11675@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Laptop / notebook / whatever, and certain list members' sarcasm > aside, a computer isn't a laptop (by the real-world definition) if it > only works when plugged in. I think it's not that simple. Remove the battery pack and it ceases to be a laptop? Not by the "what people actually say when not logic-chopping on mailing lists" definition you seem to be (not unreasonably, IMO) arguing for. I don't think the "what people actually say" meaning of `laptop' is one that can be captured by a simple objective easy-to-test line like "runs on battery" or "integral screen that forms a lid". Like a lot of the ways people actually use language, it's much fuzzier. Or, at least, that's how it seems to me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgy at einfo-net.com Wed Sep 12 18:20:28 2012 From: dgy at einfo-net.com (Dave Yelen) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:20:28 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model I Message-ID: <00dc01cd913d$327344a0$9759cde0$@einfo-net.com> Anyone near N.E. PA interested in buying my TRS-80 Model I? -Dave From dmabry at mich.com Wed Sep 12 18:26:36 2012 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:26:36 -0400 Subject: Netscape 7.2 Mirgration In-Reply-To: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> References: <504F296A.6070103@compsys.to> Message-ID: <50511A2C.5020705@mich.com> Jerome H. Fine said the following on 9/11/2012 8:07 AM: > I am currently using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. > Has anyone any experience migrating all of the files to a > 32 bit Windows XP? > > I have over ten years worth of e-mails and posts from > previous versions of Netscape as well as the current > version that I very much wish to retain as is. > > In addition, I just tested the Win32 variant (a 32 bit > program, of course) of V6.0 Ersatz-11 under a 64 bit > Windows 7. It seemed to work very well running at > about twice the speed of an older system which was > running under Windows XP. Does anyone have any > experience in a migration of Netscape 7.2 to a 64 bit > Windows 7 system? If Netscape 7.2 and Ersatz-11 > can work well using a 64 bit Windows 7 system, then > I may skip all the in-between OSs from Microsoft and > go directly to a 64 bit Windows 7. > > I know that there are many (and much better systems) > than Microsoft, but at 74 years old, I don't feel like taking > the time and effort to learn them well enough to set up. > > My son will set up a system for me and I can just do > the migration. I would much rather stay with RT-11, > but I don't believe that it can do a reasonable job with > e-mail, if at all. PLUS, under that 64 bit Windows 7 > system, RT-11 running under Ersatz-11 has a speed > of about 150 times a PDP-11/93. > > Jerome Fine > > FWIW, several years ago I moved from Netscape 7.2 to Thunderbird for email. Thunderbird imported all my email database files from Netscape with no issues at all. Still using that today and have all my email from Netscape accessible in Thunderbird just like they were Thunderbird's from the start. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 12 18:28:22 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 23:28:22 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> We are having an issue (a progressive issue, at that), with the PDP-11/40 front end in our DECSYSTEM-2065. There are no diagnostics for the front end on the diagnostics pack (KLAD), only a couple of programs for formatting an RP06 disk pack. All other PDP-11 programs on the KLAD are tests for the main processor's hardware prior to loading microcode and running PDP-10 programs to test it further. The PDP-11 diagnostic suite, collectively called XXDP, comes in different variants based on the actual processor (or processor family). We happen to have a set of XXDP diskettes for the 11/34, but that chokes (as one might imagine) on an 11/40. So. Does anyone on the list happen to have a copy of the 11/40 version of XXDP? We would very much like to borrow and duplicate it if you are willing to allow us to do so. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 19:05:36 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:05:36 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: If I remember correctly if you have XXDP you can run indiviudal diags, chain them, or build a DECX for a particulal configuration. XXDP, depending on the version, came on 4 RK05 packs, two RL01 packs, or a single RL02 pack. I don't recall seeing the entire distribution on florries, but it was quite often copied to them and other small devices for smaller systems. The ZQMCxx and ZKMAxx if my memory is working right, are memory diags that should run on any unibus system. There are different settings for KT11, etc. Most would work on multible systems. I have several packs, but not sure if i have one complete set of the same version. What media would work best for you? Paul On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > We are having an issue (a progressive issue, at that), with the PDP-11/40 > front end in our DECSYSTEM-2065. There are no diagnostics for the front > end on the diagnostics pack (KLAD), only a couple of programs for formatting > an RP06 disk pack. All other PDP-11 programs on the KLAD are tests for > the main processor's hardware prior to loading microcode and running PDP-10 > programs to test it further. > > The PDP-11 diagnostic suite, collectively called XXDP, comes in different > variants based on the actual processor (or processor family). We happen to > have a set of XXDP diskettes for the 11/34, but that chokes (as one might > imagine) on an 11/40. > > So. > > Does anyone on the list happen to have a copy of the 11/40 version of XXDP? > We would very much like to borrow and duplicate it if you are willing to > allow us to do so. > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 19:12:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com> <504EA327.1030509@bitsavers.org> <504E4D07.11505.29E00FF@cclist.sydex.com> <201209110435.AAA01555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120911081522.G17346@shell.lmi.net> <201209111622.MAA04436@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FA7D3.2000505@jwsss.com> <201209120040.UAA06379@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FE292.4050809@bitsavers.org> <504FE440.1060703@bitsavers.org> <201209120150.VAA06651@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <504FECA5.7060605@bitsavers.org> <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net> <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20120912170304.P71563@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, allison wrote: > > Apricot F1 ? > > Apricot DS ? > Apricot was a Apple clone if memory serves. Then there may have been more than one company calling itself Apricot, or more than one format, but what I have is a 3.5" MFM diskette. > > Epson Geneva PX-8 (40T/Side) (67.5 TPI You would need to double step, > > and might not be able to RE-write (like using a 1.2M drive for 360K)) > The PX-8 was definitely a CP/M machine and I have three. the 3.5" disk > unit was > a "normal" format that could be read on PC hardware. I, and others, have some Epson Geneva PX-8 diskettes that are 3.5" MFM, with FORTY tracks per side, at 67.5 TPI! I have read them (have not tried REwriting) with a 135tpi drive, and I HAVE an Epson 67.5 TPI drive. It is the only MFM 3.5" disk format that I have seen with 40 cylinders. It is nice to hear that there was also an 80 cylinder model! > > NEC 8201 > It ran cpm and maybe MSX. AND a "stand-alone BASIC" as do many other NEC models. > In the list.. > There were a lot of wild flyers out there. Some were sorta clones and some > tweaked private label units. Yes, indeed. I don't have access to my personal files today (family medical crisis), so I can't even identify for sure which on that list were CP/M style formats, which were MS-DOS style formats, Stand-alone-BASIC, P-system, etc. And many had more than one format available or possible. In many cases, I have never even SEEN the computer itself, and only have floppy disks from it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Sep 12 19:30:23 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:30:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge Message-ID: <59931546.1614808.1347496223059.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 2 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:01:11 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin < cisin at xenosoft.com > > >On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for external >battery power! ?When queried about how large the battery would be, Lee Measuring mine (including case) , it's a bout 155mm wide x 115mm deep x 190mm high, 3.6kg :-P Bob >answered, "How big is your CAR? ?It is not intended for portable use on >batteries." ? I thought that that interchange was on Computer Chronicles, >but I can't find it. >So, he wasn't competing for the "first ridiculous laptop" title. >(BTW, Lee was driving a 1977 Honda Accord) > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred ? ? ???????????????? cisin at xenosoft.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed Sep 12 19:35:05 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 00:35:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge Message-ID: <224144318.1614979.1347496505958.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 9 >Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:37:01 -0400 >From: Evan Koblentz < evan at snarc.net > > >Osborne never did ship a battery, though. Wrong! See my previous post (I have one). Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 12 19:35:13 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:35:13 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50512A41.2030409@bitsavers.org> On 9/12/12 4:28 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Does anyone on the list happen to have a copy of the 11/40 version of XXDP? > I've copied several versions of xxdp in various media forms to http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/ RXDP and several others were emailed to you. MAINDEC-11-DZZGC-C-YB 10/01/76 NR RXDP #3 11/40; 11/45 PROCESSOR TESTS is probably what you want There are a few other surprises uploaded there as well. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 19:41:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 17:41:04 -0700 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net>, <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5050C930.6604.1FF98C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 18:52, allison wrote: > There were a lot of wild flyers out there. Some were sorta clones and > some tweaked private label units. I think what some are missing is that that 1024 byte sector size was customarily used with a 360 RPM spindle speed (1.23/1.3 MB 3.5" format). AKA NEC PC98 format, although it wasn't restricted to NEC machines. LS120 drives and many USB 3.5" (e.g. Teac FD05) support this recording mode. Also called a "3-mode" drive, in case you were wondering what that setup choice in your BIOS referred to. I have a Toshiba "legacy floppy interface" drive that has the smarts to recognize the firmat and alter its speed. Bizarre. The examples I gave were 1024 byte sector CP/M 360 RPM formats. --Chuck From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed Sep 12 20:02:17 2012 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:32:17 +0930 Subject: ASR-33 on eBay in Melbourne Message-ID: <50513099.9010106@kaput.homeunix.org> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Teletype-ASR33-/160878867797 $50 at the moment. Just a heads up. Alexis. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 12 20:51:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 18:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <5050C930.6604.1FF98C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net>, <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> <5050C930.6604.1FF98C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120912184302.B71563@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think what some are missing is that that 1024 byte sector size was > customarily used with a 360 RPM spindle speed (1.23/1.3 MB 3.5" > format). AKA NEC PC98 format, although it wasn't restricted to NEC > machines. It wasn't even restricted to the NEC PC98 format. In "720K" mode (300 RPM, 250K bits per second), you could run 5 sectors of 1024 bytes each, and get 800K per disk. What was the sector size of the "1.7M" "IMD" distribution formats? From cube1 at charter.net Wed Sep 12 21:01:22 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 21:01:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50513E72.5030409@charter.net> I would have thought that XXDP itself (the diagnostic monitor) would be the same, i.e., the monitor itself ought to boot? But there are certainly different diagnostic programs for the different processors. So, when you say "it chokes", exactly what happens? I am sure I have diagnostics for an 11/40 - paper tape images, if nothing else, that I could forward, and you could perhaps transfer to floppy. I may or may not have XXDP based versions of those diagnostics, but IIRC there was a way to load any paper tape onto an XXDP media using the diagnostic monitor so you could run it. I am not sure I have diagnostics for an 11/40 on rx01. Depending on whether or not my rx01 cooperates, or not, I might be able to generate one. On 9/12/2012 6:28 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > We are having an issue (a progressive issue, at that), with the PDP-11/40 > front end in our DECSYSTEM-2065. There are no diagnostics for the front > end on the diagnostics pack (KLAD), only a couple of programs for formatting > an RP06 disk pack. All other PDP-11 programs on the KLAD are tests for > the main processor's hardware prior to loading microcode and running PDP-10 > programs to test it further. > > The PDP-11 diagnostic suite, collectively called XXDP, comes in different > variants based on the actual processor (or processor family). We happen to > have a set of XXDP diskettes for the 11/34, but that chokes (as one might > imagine) on an 11/40. > > So. > > Does anyone on the list happen to have a copy of the 11/40 version of XXDP? > We would very much like to borrow and duplicate it if you are willing to > allow us to do so. > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 12 21:21:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 19:21:35 -0700 Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <20120912184302.B71563@shell.lmi.net> References: <3F1A21AF-860A-4A36-8E08-A1C8DFB93CE5@gmail.com>, <5050C930.6604.1FF98C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120912184302.B71563@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5050E0BF.21406.25B9E2F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2012 at 18:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I think what some are missing is that that 1024 byte sector size was > > customarily used with a 360 RPM spindle speed (1.23/1.3 MB 3.5" > > format). AKA NEC PC98 format, although it wasn't restricted to NEC > > machines. > > It wasn't even restricted to the NEC PC98 format. > In "720K" mode (300 RPM, 250K bits per second), you could run 5 > sectors of 1024 bytes each, and get 800K per disk. > > What was the sector size of the "1.7M" "IMD" distribution formats? Or 10 sectors of 512, but you miss the point, I think. You can't read or write PC98 disks in a garden-variety PC or Mac floppy drive, as those aren't usually 3-mode. Before I could get reasonably-priced 3-mode drives, I'd just use a secondary FDC and change the 24 MHz crystal to 20 MHz. Mohammed to the mountain and all that... Are you thinking of the Microsoft distribution mode (DMF)? 21 sectors of 512 bytes. Far more interesting was IBM XDF. If memory serves, 1 sector each of 8192, 2048, 1024 and 512 bytes per track. That's 11,176 formatted bytes per track, so only 1,326 bytes per track were used for headers, CRCs, gaps and sync bytes. IBM had a lot of guts to try something like that as an "official" format. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Sep 13 05:56:30 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 11:56:30 +0100 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 12, 12 09:24:47 am Message-ID: <19BCCCA048AE4962964698279FFD3008@MailBox> Quite so .. Although I did not say do not take it apart I quite agree. Heads would always be replaced never repaired. I do remember a field service engineer gently moving the print wires with a pair of needle nosed pliers where they were visible underneath. I was surprised how far they stuck out in front of the final guide. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 12 September 2012 20:29 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) > Some things to watch for on the LA36 > > 1. If you get a light or missing dot do not assume it's one of the print > head solenoids or a driver transistor. The synthetic agate through which the > wires run to the print point were prone to get gummed up. Take the head off > and wash it in alcohol. Look out for the agate falling out when you wash it. Do not dismantle th printhead (The same applies to the LA100 head, and many Epson heads, and doubtless others). Dismantling it is easy. Reassembling it is next to impossible. The print pins (wires) were originally mcuh longer, they were fed through the guides, the head was put toghter, the wirees were then cut/groudn to length. if you take the head apart, you will never get the wries to stay through all the guides (due to the return springs) whill you puti together. Oh, the wires are some metal that is quite brittle and which will not take solder. Don't ask... The only heads I would attemtp to dismantle i nthe field and there ones in the Sanders variopritners, the Model 43 Teletype one (for which there is a dismantling procedure given i nthe service manual) and the old Epson ones (TX80, also used in Commoder 2022, etc) where the front section cotnaing the print pins is a complete unit that comes off with a retainer plate to keep the wires in position. Don;t dismantle that but you can take the solenoid section apart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 12:59:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 18:59:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <20120912124311.B66443@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 12, 12 12:49:57 pm Message-ID: > I don't have convenient access today to my files; I don't remember for > sure which of these were CP/M, but there were a few: [...] Amstrad PCW9512+ (YEs, thsi had 3.5", not 3" drives and ran CP/M) > Apricot F1 ? > Apricot DS ? Those are 'PC incompatibles'. I am pretty sure htt at least the original Apricot had an 8086 (and not an 8088) processor, along with an 8089 'I/O procesosor' (a fancy DMA chip) and an optional 8087. THey did not run CP/M 80. Whether they ran CP/M 86 I do not recall, they normally ran a special MS-DOS. [...] > Epson Geneva PX-8 (40T/Side) (67.5 TPI You would need to double step, > and might not be able to RE-write (like using a 1.2M drive for 360K)) Also on the Epson PX4, of course. > HP 3.5 CP/M Likely to be a signle-sided disk, 135tpi, but with only 70 tracks used. The drive unit is the nroaml HP9121. The machine would be an HP120 or HP125 I would guess. [...] > Tandy 600 ? I thought that was an 8088 box? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 13:03:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:03:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: from "Doug Salot" at Sep 12, 12 01:51:36 pm Message-ID: > > I haven't seen the handles for the HP-9800, but I do have the case for the I've never seen them, but Ithoguht I read about them somewhere... In any case (!) it would not be hard to git a handle to the HP9830, and the machine is light enough for one person to carry it. That, I guess, makes it a portable comptuer :-) > IBM 5100. I also remember seeing a pair of carrying cases for the TRS-80 Model 1. Oen took the keyboard/CPU unit, the PSU and the cassette recorder. The other took the monitor. I never had them, and they were pretty useless if you had a disk system anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 13:12:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:12:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: TEAC FC-1 (was Re: Regarding SATA vs. SAS/FibreChannel) In-Reply-To: <50511243.5030402@verizon.net> from "allison" at Sep 12, 12 06:52:51 pm Message-ID: > > Apricot F1 ? > > Apricot DS ? > Apricot was a Apple clone if memory serves. If so, there were at least 2 'Apricot' computer companies. The Apricot I know of was a UK PC-incompatible, IIRC with an 8086 CPU. Quite a nice macnine in many ways. > > Epson Geneva PX-8 (40T/Side) (67.5 TPI You would need to double step, > > and might not be able to RE-write (like using a 1.2M drive for 360K)) > The PX-8 was definitely a CP/M machine and I have three. the 3.5" disk > unit was > a "normal" format that could be read on PC hardware. Read, but maybe not written :-). The drive (I have one, but the CPOU has died) was a rather odd design. The controller board has a a 6303 CPU, EPROM, RAM, a 765 floppy cotnrolelr IC, data sparator, etc _and the read/write circuitry (to link to the drive heard), stepper motor drivers (driven by ports pin o n the CPU), etc. The drive itself is just a bare mechanism, and as Fred said, is 40 cylinder (62.5 tpi). You can read that on a normal PC drive (and the secotrs are nmormal MFM-encoded sectors), but if you writ to such a disk using a PC 135 tpi drive, you get the same problem as using a 40 cylinder 5.25" disk in an 80 cylinder drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 13:23:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 19:23:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: <19BCCCA048AE4962964698279FFD3008@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 13, 12 11:56:30 am Message-ID: > > > Quite so .. > Although I did not say do not take it apart I quite agree. > Heads would always be replaced never repaired. Howe3ver, people here often do repairs that no field servoid would contemplate.A motor would not be reound in the field, but I've done it several times (in an LA36, an HP9125 plotter, etc, etc, etc). Simialry, many of us (OK, me at least) do component-level repair on machines that were nromalyl field-repaired by board-swapping. Hence my warning. These dot matrix printheads are not at all easy to reassembel without a new set of p[rinmt wires. I would avoid taking them apart! > I do remember a field service engineer gently moving the print wires with a > pair of needle nosed pliers where they were visible underneath. I was > surprised how far they stuck out in front of the final guide. A gopd adjustable bench supply ('good' meaning to goes down to 0V, which a lot of modern ones don't) is useful here. Connect it between common and one of the print solenoid wires (with the head unplugged from the driver board, of course) and slowly turn up the volts. The pin will come forwards, it foesn't take much votlage to do it either. The tpyically stick out 2 or 3 mm when fully driven. -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 14:15:07 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 21:15:07 +0200 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? Message-ID: I think you could use SIM-H with the image on bitsavers to create floppy images with the files you need for your machine. Then maybe you could transfer the images to real floppies using VTserver... I did so with my 11/23... Andrea From tom94022 at comcast.net Thu Sep 13 16:14:55 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:14:55 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer References: Message-ID: FWIW, US Pat 5,268,816 filed Sept 28, 1982 uses the term ?laptop computers? throughout the specification but not in the claims.? The next usage (lap-top) was filed July 3, 1986 (4,788,658). A search of a newspaper archive finds the earliest usage of "laptop computer" in print in a Jan 1985 Knight Ridder column by Evelyn Richards ??84 computer predictions go awry,? which ended with the following paragraph. "They predict among other things a lap-top computer (dubbed Clamshell) from IBM ? Google News? earliest hits are ?lap top? in 1986. IEEE Xplore has its first hit a September 1986 Computer Magazine Ad for an add on "lOM-byte internal hard disk for Zenith Data Systems' Z-171 laptop computer.." The NY Times' first used it in Peter Lewis' column on Nov 5, 1985, as "THE Tandy Corporation has introduced a new portable computer, the Model 600. The designation might lead someone to suspect that the Model 600 is six times better than the Tandy Model 100, which is a delightful little laptop computer and one of the best bargains around for reporters, salesmen and others who need to take a briefcase-sized office along with them when they hit the road." Anyone have any earlier published dates? Tom From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 16:46:01 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 16:46:01 -0500 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Using some other folks' research from another thread on another mailing list of the same debate (was an interesting read as well). http://mail.computerhistory.org/pipermail/inforoots/2006-February/001719.htmlsites some of the same 1984 articles we've found in googles archive of the term "laptop". He also I believe is the one who pointed out the MCM/70 system which is amazing. http://mail.computerhistory.org/pipermail/inforoots/2006-February/001712.htmlhas Evan's previous searching results which he likely rigorously searched through at the library. He found the same January 1984 byte article using the term. He also found the 1982 reference of the HX-20 (and apparently also the TI-CC40 as a notebook which is also an interest conclusion that perhaps the term was end-user and notebook or "notebook sized computer" may have been first before the probably less flattering "lap-top" or "lap-held" computer. At that time I think Evan (now Evan has a LOT of experience and this might have been pre-M.A.R.C.H/museum phase so I'm sure lots has been learned) was leaning towards the HX-20 being the first laptop or advertised device as a notebook. Later he found references to the Grundy NewBrain system ( http://mail.computerhistory.org/pipermail/inforoots/2006-February/001723.html) which depending on the release date could be before a lot of the other published systems but I'm not sure if their advertising ever used the term. Two categories now though. The technicality of what device was first as a laptop computer or who was the first to coin and use the term (which I think is fair to set the expectation of what rule applies to the device in question i.e. does it have to be battery powered?). From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 13 16:55:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 14:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 Sep 2012, Tom Gardner wrote: > Anyone have any earlier published dates? The Gavilan computer was called a "laptop" when it was introduced at NCC (National Computer Conference) in Anaheim May 16, 1983. It appears to be the first machine sold AS A "LAPTOP". I know neither the exact date (April 1982?), nor the wording for the Grid Compass, which was earlier, but it was apparently NOT called a "laptop" at the time, AND is rejected by Evan due to not having batteries at the time. "FIRST" is a really ridiculous measure. Do you want the first one PROPOSED? First one DESIGNED? First one BUILT? First one SHOWN? First one MARKETED? First one SOLD? First one actually DELIVERED? Unless each and every step was concluded before the comparable step of another machine, any claim to "first" is ludicrous. Do NOT be deluded into thinking that any of those milestones ocurred at the same time, nor even that they ocurred in a logical sequence. For example, the Elcompco model V was designed, built, delivered, sold, shown, then marketed (WCCF, April 1981). All of the steps, albeit in a strange order, were completed before the Osborne (WCCF, 1981), although "everybody knows" that the Osborne 1 was "the first portable computer" MANY machines, such as the Dulmont Magnum, and even the Grid Compass, had enormous gaps between design and delivery, or between introduction and delivery, during which other machines may have completed ALL of the steps. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Sep 13 17:08:34 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "RTTY Electronics" - Teletype Machines, Parts and Service Message-ID: <1347574114.88973.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Recently stumbled-upon this guys website who lives in El Sobrante, California (near San Francisco). He has "literally 100,000's of Teletype parts, some new, organized, indexed, and available for purchase by Teletype restorers, rescuers, and users of Teletype machines of yesteryear." http://www.johnwhitney.com/misc/paul-rtty.htm From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 13 19:00:14 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 00:00:14 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a copy of XXDP for the PDP-11/40? In-Reply-To: <50512A41.2030409@bitsavers.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0732@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50512A41.2030409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0A1C@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2012 5:35 PM > On 9/12/12 4:28 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Does anyone on the list happen to have a copy of the 11/40 version of >> XXDP? > I've copied several versions of xxdp in various media forms to > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/ > RXDP and several others were emailed to you. > MAINDEC-11-DZZGC-C-YB 10/01/76 NR > RXDP #3 11/40; 11/45 > PROCESSOR TESTS > is probably what you want > There are a few other surprises uploaded there as well. I want to thank Al publicly for jumping on this very quickly. He sent me images of all the RX01 and RX02 diskettes yesterday evening; we are putting them onto media now. (The front end on a DEC-20 only has an RH11 and an RX11 on it, and no other storage devices gen'd into the variant of RSX-11M to save space in the unmapped system.) I also want to thank everyone who responded, both privately and in public, to our request for help. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 21:41:08 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 22:41:08 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge died In-Reply-To: References: <1929281888-1347417759-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1006284330-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <50501F78.4010301@neurotica.com> <504FC260.21123.5AF670@cclist.sydex.com> <20120912111125.O62353@shell.lmi.net> <201209121912.PAA10388@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120912125651.U66443@shell.lmi.net> <201209122233.SAA11572@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >> http://www.xnumber.com/xnumber/MCM_70_microcomputer.htm MCM/70 from Micro Computer Machines Inc. Although the years referenced between 3 different sites I've read about say it was out in 1972, 73 (wikipedia), and 74 (old-computers) but argument sake aside. Apparently it had a 1 line display, programmed APL, and per the articles actually did have an option for battery power. No, it had a battery backup for your data -- not a battery for actually running the computer. There's an excellent history book about MCM by Z. Stachniak. I recommend it. Zig runs a computer museum at York U. and has access to several MCM computers: http://www.cse.yorku.ca/~zbigniew/ Nevermind laptops; a whole * other * debate is whether the MCM was the first microcomputer! (Before any puts in two cents, please consider READING real sources, not just Wikipedia...) http://www.cse.yorku.ca/museum/collections/MCM/MCM.htm From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 21:45:50 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 22:45:50 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge In-Reply-To: <59931546.1614808.1347496223059.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.c omcast.net> References: <59931546.1614808.1347496223059.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <167c55ab2daa8e523a2492d0abbd9896.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>>> On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for external battery power! When queried about how large the battery would be, Lee >>> Measuring mine (including case), it's about 155mm wide x 115mm deep x 190mm high Then it must be a prototype, or custom-made, or unauthorized, because Lee himself told me Osborne never made a battery, and that there was a deal in the works to authorize an aftermarket battery, but the deal fell through. From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 21:52:51 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 22:52:51 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6f39b638b4d8f545f8591168b29436b7.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> US Pat 5,268,816 filed Sept 28, 1982 uses the term ?laptop computers? > throughout the specification but not in the claims. That's a false alarm. The patent wasn't issued until 1993, and there is extensive evidence that the wording was written much later than 1982. First, everyone can view the patent at: http://1.usa.gov/QK3uSO .... the "patents cited" shows several from 1984 to 1992 .... the body also cites patent #5,103,376 (http://1.usa.gov/UaegAz) which wasn't even filed until 1991. From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 22:08:52 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 23:08:52 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f065917c12446a74677d77402c8e37a.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> http://mail.computerhistory.org/pipermail/inforoots/2006-February/001712.html has Evan's previous searching results which he likely rigorously searched through at the library. I did. Thank you for acknowledging that. >>> He found the same January 1984 byte article using the term. He also found the 1982 reference of the HX-20 (and apparently also the TI-CC40 as a notebook which is also an interest conclusion that perhaps the term was end-user and notebook or "notebook sized computer" may have been first before the probably less flattering "lap-top" or "lap-held" computer. That's true. "Laptop" was definitely not the original term for such computers. The very early references, i.e. the ones from 81-ish, mostly just use "mobile" or "portable" in a generic sense, and that's true whether the source is the manufacturers or the journalists or the peanut gallery. :) Then from 82(-ish) to 83(-ish), there were all kinds of terms being used, such as notebook, lap-sized, and (this was also very common) "briefcase computers" .... I own a couple of buyer's guide-type books from that period and the authors used "briefcase computer" quite frequently. Same goes for articles by David Ahl, etc. .... from what I found during that research, the story about Galivan being called a "laptop" is fiction, until someone products proof. (However I have not yet asked Manny Fernandez about it. It's on my to-do list.) >>> At that time I think Evan (now Evan has a LOT of experience and this might have been pre-M.A.R.C.H/museum phase so I'm sure lots has been learned was leaning towards the HX-20 being the first laptop or advertised device as a notebook. Later he found references to the Grundy NewBrain system Thank you, again. Time passes and we all hopefully learn a few things in life. :) I have since decided based on extensive research that the Husky Hunter beats 'em all. Husky shipped in 81. (It too was never called a "laptop" but it certainly meets the * common * description of one.) >>> The technicality of what device was first a laptop computer or who was the first to coin and use the term They are indeed separate things. There's a similar debate about PDAs. Nobody doubts that Apple may have * coined the term * "personal digital assistant", but there are 15 years' worth of handheld electronic organizers on the market before that. (And if you guys think I'm stressing about "laptop" then you ought to see my veins bulge when Apple fanboys insist the Newton was the "first * real * PDA" ... put them in the same room as Psion fanboys over in the U.K. who made the same claim about that company's product from 1984 .... wanna know the truth? PDAs, by whatever name you like, were around since the late 1970s.) >>> which I think is fair to set the expectation of what rule applies to the device in question i.e. does it have to be battery powered? You are a wise man (because you seem to agree with me!) :) From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 22:16:23 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 23:16:23 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> The Gavilan computer was called a "laptop" when it was introduced at NCC (National Computer Conference) in Anaheim May 16, 1983. It appears to be the first machine sold AS A "LAPTOP". Documentation of that? >>> I know neither the exact date (April 1982?), nor the wording for the Grid Compass, which was earlier, but it was apparently NOT called a "laptop" at the time, AND is rejected by Evan due to not having batteries at the time. I agree with everyone who says the particular wording isn't important. >>> "FIRST" is a really ridiculous measure. Do you want the first one PROPOSED? First one DESIGNED? First one BUILT? First one SHOWN? First one MARKETED? First one SOLD? First one actually DELIVERED? Unless each and every step was concluded before the comparable step of another machine, any claim to "first" is ludicrous. True. People ask us that at the MARCH museum on an almost weekly basis, especially re: Apple II / PET 2001 / TRS-80 Model 1. I give them the same answer as you did, above. I also tell them, well, NONE of them are "first" because of tons of prior art (such as the aforementioned MCM/70...) >>> Do NOT be deluded into thinking that any of those milestones occurred at the same time, nor even that they occurred in a logical sequence. That's also true. History happens in starts and stops. >>> For example, the Elcompco model V was designed, built, delivered, sold, shown, then marketed (WCCF, April 1981). All of the steps, albeit in a strange order, were completed before the Osborne (WCCF, 1981), although "everybody knows" that the Osborne 1 was "the first portable computer" Whoa, I never head of Elcompco. Link? There were many suitcase-sized computers before Osborne. MCM, GM Research Microstar / Small One, Micral V, and of course the PARC NoteTaker (although that was only a prototype) ... Osborne was the first * big successful smash hit * of its category and generation. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 13 22:04:21 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:04:21 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model Message-ID: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 13 22:29:11 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 23:29:11 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 > > I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. What the??? Gotta be a scam. Who'd pay $5K for a MODEL??? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 22:16:22 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 22:16:22 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: wow... makes me really wonder what i should be insuring this phillips model On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**150895882532 > > I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 13 22:35:27 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:35:27 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5052A5FF.6030507@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/12 8:29 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > > What the??? Gotta be a scam. Who'd pay $5K for a MODEL??? > A museum-grade model like that today would cost well over $5K The seller was a moron for making it a reserve-price auction. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 13 22:45:45 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:45:45 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5052A869.5080509@jwsss.com> Al bid a lot too, didn't get it. He may be the real bidder if my guess is right. Mr #5 found out how much he had bid, and mr #1721 is also fake. should be interesting to see if mr. Brainfart comes back with a second chance offer. On 9/13/2012 8:29 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > What the??? Gotta be a scam. Who'd pay $5K for a MODEL??? > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Sep 13 22:48:46 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 23:48:46 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/09/12 11:29 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > > What the??? Gotta be a scam. Who'd pay $5K for a MODEL??? I just saw a large permanent exhibition of model ships, in the basement of the Art Gallery of Ontario. It was donated by one of Canada's richest men. Practically all of the ships depicted are sunk or broken up - likewise Univacs. But the models themselves have very definite value, of the five-six figure sort. (And there are nearly 200 models in the AGO's collection...) I haven't paid close attention to the Univac model on ebay, but apparently it's 1) contemporary and 2) almost unique (there's a 2nd in the Smithsonian?). That makes $5K a bit of a lowball, in my opinion. --Toby From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Sep 13 22:50:14 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:50:14 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052A5FF.6030507@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A5FF.6030507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000001cd922c$0ce31f40$26a95dc0$@comcast.net> The eBay seller was "bigbrainfart", not "moron". Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 8:35 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: UNIVAC model On 9/13/12 8:29 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > > What the??? Gotta be a scam. Who'd pay $5K for a MODEL??? > A museum-grade model like that today would cost well over $5K The seller was a moron for making it a reserve-price auction. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 13 22:57:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 20:57:23 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> On 9/13/12 8:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > I haven't paid close attention to the Univac model on ebay, but apparently it's 1) contemporary and 2) almost unique (there's a 2nd in the Smithsonian?). CHM has most of a 3rd set except for the CPU and console http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=univac+I+model+physical&type=all&t=objects From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:10:02 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 21:10:02 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> On 9/13/2012 8:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/13/12 8:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I haven't paid close attention to the Univac model on ebay, but >> apparently it's 1) contemporary and 2) almost unique (there's a 2nd >> in the Smithsonian?). > > CHM has most of a 3rd set except for the CPU and console > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=univac+I+model+physical&type=all&t=objects If you asked your local model railroad or military modelers club I bey they could make you identical copies just for fun. I don't see anything there even slightly hard to recreate. They wont be originals but, for display purposes that's some simple stuff there. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Thu Sep 13 23:16:45 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 21:16:45 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> Adrian Stoness wrote: > wow... makes me really wonder what i should be insuring this phillips model > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. >> >> This really defined the 20'th century culture. Toy models of classic systems that can be displayed on a glass tabletop for rich guests have more worth than the scrap price of the real machine, and most real machines were scrapped. I weep. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:21:31 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 00:21:31 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052A869.5080509@jwsss.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A869.5080509@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Al bid a lot too, didn't get it. He may be the real bidder if my guess is > right. Mr #5 found out how much he had bid, and mr #1721 is also fake. > should be interesting to see if mr. Brainfart comes back with a second > chance offer. What is your evidence that "mr #1721" is fake? -- Will From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 23:42:38 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 21:42:38 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> Message-ID: <5052B5BE.1080704@gmail.com> On 9/13/2012 9:16 PM, jimpdavis wrote: > This really defined the 20'th century culture. Toy models of classic > systems that can be displayed on a glass tabletop for rich guests > have more worth than the scrap price of the real machine, and most > real machines were scrapped. > I weep. > I think the majority of the world would not assign these much monetary value. It would also be fairly trivial to reproduce them. They are just blocks of wood and plastic. No rich guest would know if they weren't original. For $5,000 you probably could set up production in China for as many fairly exact copies as you wanted for a few bucks a set. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 13 23:59:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 21:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> > >>> The Gavilan computer was called a "laptop" when it was introduced at > NCC (National Computer Conference) in Anaheim May 16, 1983. It appears > to be the first machine sold AS A "LAPTOP". On Thu, 13 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Documentation of that? NONE! I was there. It was hotter than hell at NCC (>100F in the tents out back; a few people DIED from the heat!). Instead of going to Disneyland on Apple's dime, I was supposed to meet my ride at the Gavilan booth. They didn't show. I stood around in the Gavilan booth for hours. I didn't consider their "laptop" designation to be a very good one. Eventually, I took a bus. At the same show, one day, I bought lunch for John Draper, and he explained to me the directory structure of the UCSD P system. Without having to exercise with him! On the first day of the show, booth jerks at both Superbrain/Intertec and Televideo threatened to sue me if Xenocopy handled their disk formats, because they couldn't imagine ANY possible use for disk format conversion other than pirating THEIR software! That night, I added both formats. They never kept their promise [of free ink]. All in all, a very memorable show! > >>> For example, the Elcompco model V was designed, built, delivered, > > sold, shown, then marketed (WCCF, April 1981). All of the steps, > > albeit in a strange order, were completed before the Osborne (WCCF, > > 1981), although "everybody knows" that the Osborne 1 was "the first > > portable computer" > Whoa, I never head of Elcompco. Link? VERY smalltime, and throughly gone long before WWW. Joe Garner needed something very portable for data acquisition in elevator control rooms. ELevator COMPuter COmpany. He found a good machinist, and designed brackets, mounts, etc. for putting various motherboards (including TRS80! and later 5150/5160) and a crude CP/M board of his own into Halliburton attache cases, with a 5" CRT and optional battery. He was selling a few, and I convinced him to do a production run and try public sales, starting at my West Coast Computer Faire booth. He sold a few during setup! Meanwhile, massive amounts of chrome and black plexiglass was going up across the ailse. Adam came across the aisle, admired it, shook my hand, and then went and told his press conference that his computer was "the very first and only portable computer". The comparison of my booth (elegantly made of flush doors and filing cabinets) with Osborne's was enough to convince Joe to go back to only doing custom installations, and at the end of the show, he stopped public retail sales. The whole thing is completely unworthy of ANY historical note, other than as my further refutation of others' claims of being "first". There is ALWAYS some nobody so small that they got crushed, who preceded any of the giant "firsts". "Ain't no room for the little guys anymore." Joe very briefly made his own disk format for a CP/M model of his setup; I have, and support in XenoCopy, the only surviving disk in existence of that format, because Joe then decided to go MS-DOS, which he used in his machines for many more years. > There were many suitcase-sized computers before Osborne. MCM, GM Research > Microstar / Small One, Micral V, and of course the PARC NoteTaker > (although that was only a prototype) ... Osborne was the first * big > successful smash hit * of its category and generation. But NOT the first made, shown, sold, nor delivered. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 14 02:21:14 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 00:21:14 -0700 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <150567F4-C392-4123-BBF2-CB5D372DCA4B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Sep 13, at 9:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 13 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >> >> There were many suitcase-sized computers before Osborne. MCM, GM >> Research >> Microstar / Small One, Micral V, and of course the PARC NoteTaker >> (although that was only a prototype) ... Osborne was the first * big >> successful smash hit * of its category and generation. > > But NOT the first made, shown, sold, nor delivered. Just to throw another example in, here's a limited-production luggable (not marketed) from the 1981 time period, based on the Xerox-820 system board: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/ctg/#XLug I was told these were built before the Osborne was publicly known (that is to say, it was not influenced by the Osborne). From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Sep 14 02:22:45 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:22:45 +0100 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: <19BCCCA048AE4962964698279FFD3008@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 13, 12 11:56:30 am Message-ID: <4EE4954AF7054AB5B5001E2FB5585317@MailBox> Not a bad way to test but do remember that the head solenoids were designed for pulse operation so do not power more one at a time and don't leave the power on for too long. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 13 September 2012 19:24 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) > > > Quite so .. > Although I did not say do not take it apart I quite agree. > Heads would always be replaced never repaired. Howe3ver, people here often do repairs that no field servoid would contemplate.A motor would not be reound in the field, but I've done it several times (in an LA36, an HP9125 plotter, etc, etc, etc). Simialry, many of us (OK, me at least) do component-level repair on machines that were nromalyl field-repaired by board-swapping. Hence my warning. These dot matrix printheads are not at all easy to reassembel without a new set of p[rinmt wires. I would avoid taking them apart! > I do remember a field service engineer gently moving the print wires with a > pair of needle nosed pliers where they were visible underneath. I was > surprised how far they stuck out in front of the final guide. A gopd adjustable bench supply ('good' meaning to goes down to 0V, which a lot of modern ones don't) is useful here. Connect it between common and one of the print solenoid wires (with the head unplugged from the driver board, of course) and slowly turn up the volts. The pin will come forwards, it foesn't take much votlage to do it either. The tpyically stick out 2 or 3 mm when fully driven. -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 14 07:43:53 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:43:53 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> Message-ID: <50532689.4000205@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/09/12 12:16 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: >> wow... makes me really wonder what i should be insuring this phillips >> model >> >> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 10:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**150895882532 >>> >>> >>> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. >>> >>> > This really defined the 20'th century culture. Toy models of classic > systems that can be displayed on a glass tabletop for rich guests > have more worth than the scrap price of the real machine, and most real > machines were scrapped. > I weep. > > It's sad and ridiculous that the originals were not preserved, but there's nothing sick about this model set -- it was a contemporary sales tool, and a remarkable artefact in its own right. What /is/ offensive is the scrap-the-box-but-keep-the-name-plate thing. That's a truly worthless form of trophyism. --Toby From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Sep 14 08:50:49 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:50:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Osborne Battery (Was: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer) Message-ID: <934537794.1674413.1347630649063.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 12 >Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 22:45:50 -0400 >From: "Evan Koblentz" < evan at snarc.net > > >>>>> On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for >external battery power! When queried about how large the battery >would be, Lee > >>> Measuring mine (including case), it's about 155mm wide x 115mm deep x >190mm high > >Then it must be a prototype, or custom-made, or unauthorized, because Lee >himself told me Osborne never made a battery, and that there was a deal in >the works to authorize an aftermarket battery, but the deal fell through. I bought it new at a Computerland in Chicago, IIRC. I'll have to see if I still have the receipt for it.There is no logo on the battery carry case, but there is the Osborne Computer logo on the DC-to-AC converter. The wall wart for the charger was made by Gould. Bob From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Sep 14 08:56:10 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:56:10 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP Message-ID: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:04:35 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:04:35 -0500 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: pdp 8a? On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any > particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. > Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 14 10:23:34 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:23:34 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: <50534BF6.9070307@compsys.to> >Paul Anderson wrote: >I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? > >-------- >Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > If you are anything like the other hardware addicts on this list, then a Unibus model might be the only thing that will offer sufficient satisfaction. What software do you want to run? How many hours a day or a year will you run the system? Do you have any experience running a PDP-11? Would an emulator (Ersatz-11 or SimH) be helpful until you understand what you want to actually do? You may be able to find a Qbus model that someone is discarding. A PDP-11/73 in a BA23 box would be about the most efficient. A hard disk is not essential, but is strongly recommended. What city are you located in? In the US, there will be more hardware available than in other countries. Jerome Fine From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:37:10 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:37:10 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: <4AD4476D-ABF2-4CB8-9434-FAEFFFAE3317@gmail.com> On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:56 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? You can usually build an 11/23+ out of easily-available parts on eBay for less. To play around with, all you really need is a CPU board (ideally with a serial port built in, else you will also need an SLU), some RAM and a backplane. My base system is a KDF11-BA (11/23+ CPU board with serial and boot ROM) and a 256K RAM module, which is enough to start playing around with things. If you only have a backplane, MAKE SURE you put a reasonably powerful fan blowing through so that you don't overheat things. Buying off eBay, of course, is the expensive way; if you're lucky, you may strike a deal with folks here or elsewhere. Or if you live in the right kind of area, you may find discarded systems in the skip or on Craigslist (Philadelphia is not a target-rich environment, sadly). For media, you can use one of the many available TU58 tape emulators; the TU58 attaches via serial, so you can use a modern PC as the host for that and have your media without getting extra peripheral boards. Once you graduate from that (since it is quite slow), many other Qbus media options are available, including SCSI cards (or my generic Qbus card, if I ever have the free time and money to build it). - Dave From doc at vaxen.net Fri Sep 14 09:50:35 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:50:35 -0500 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: <5053443B.3050706@vaxen.net> On 9/14/12 8:56 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? Where are you located? Doc From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Sep 14 10:01:24 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:01:24 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <5053443B.3050706@vaxen.net> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> <5053443B.3050706@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On 2012-09-14, at 10:50 AM, Doc wrote: > On 9/14/12 8:56 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? > > Where are you located? > > I am in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. My parents live in Sarnia, just across the border from Port Huron, MI. I go back and forth fairly regular. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From mrosati at suffolk.lib.ny.us Fri Sep 14 07:40:12 2012 From: mrosati at suffolk.lib.ny.us (mrosati at suffolk.lib.ny.us) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 08:40:12 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack 20 In 1 Electroncs Set Message-ID: <3faa2e554eca0b6afad05274ed17858c.squirrel@mail.suffolk.lib.ny.us> Hi: I happened to see your posting regarding a search for old Radio Shack Modules. I am just curious if you ever came across the manual for the 20 in 1 Electronics Set (28-245). I happen to have the kit but lost the manual. I have a young son that took an interest in electronics and would love to show him what I had when I was his age. Electronic copy would be fine. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks Louis Rosati From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 11:28:57 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:28:57 -0700 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: At 9:56 AM -0400 9/14/12, Paul Anderson wrote: >I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any >particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about >$1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? With that you might be able to squeeze in a Q-Bus SCSI Adapter. Look for a PDP-11/23+ or PDP-11/73 in either a BA23 or better yet a BA123. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Sep 14 12:27:24 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:27:24 -0500 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505368FC.8000104@pico-systems.com> > From: Toby Thain > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: UNIVAC model > Message-ID: <50532689.4000205 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 14/09/12 12:16 AM, jimpdavis wrote: > >> Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >>> wow... makes me really wonder what i should be insuring this phillips >>> model >>> >>> Wow, that is an amazing find. Rare? My guess is this was a complete one-off made by the model shop for display at a trade show or maybe to sit in a glass case in the corporate lobby. Jon From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 12:46:24 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:46:24 -0700 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:10 PM -0700 9/13/12, mc68010 wrote: >>CHM has most of a 3rd set except for the CPU and console >>http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=univac+I+model+physical&type=all&t=objects > >If you asked your local model railroad or military modelers club I >bey they could make you identical copies just for fun. I don't see >anything there even slightly hard to recreate. They wont be >originals but, for display purposes that's some simple stuff there. Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like this? I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to modeling a PDP-10. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 12:52:15 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:52:15 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <50532689.4000205@telegraphics.com.au> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> <50532689.4000205@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: At 8:43 AM -0400 9/14/12, Toby Thain wrote: >What /is/ offensive is the scrap-the-box-but-keep-the-name-plate >thing. That's a truly worthless form of trophyism. Keep in mind that these machines had value as scrap at a time when no one even considered their historical value. Plus some of those name plates were saved by people other than those involved in the scrapping. I was able to save a digital nameplate and the console from a VAX-8800, but by the time I got to it, it had already been scrapped. Besides there is absolutely no way I could have handled saving a VAX-8800. Something else to consider is disposal requirements based on the classification of the data that was on the system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 12:52:39 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:52:39 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 8:04 PM -0700 9/13/12, Al Kossow wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 > >I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. I'm surprised that no one has asked. Any idea who got it? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 12:54:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 10:54:53 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> On 9/14/2012 10:46 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like > this? I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to > modeling a PDP-10. > > Zane > It actually sounds like a really fun hobby. If you were good at it I would imagine there would be a small market for selling your creations too. Recreate all the famous systems. I would totally do this if I had any model making talent. I learned long ago I don't. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 14 13:12:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:12:02 -0400 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> <50532689.4000205@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50537372.5010208@neurotica.com> On 09/14/2012 01:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Something else to consider is disposal requirements based on the > classification of the data that was on the system. ...which is absolutely ludicrous with the exception of actual persistent storage media, and most FSOs damn well know it. Maybe the gov't will grow a few brain cells someday, but I'm not holding my breath. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 13:13:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:13:28 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:54 AM -0700 9/14/12, mc68010 wrote: >On 9/14/2012 10:46 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system >>like this? I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought >>to modeling a PDP-10. >> >>Zane >> > >It actually sounds like a really fun hobby. If you were good at it I >would imagine there would be a small market for selling your >creations too. Recreate all the famous systems. I would totally do >this if I had any model making talent. I learned long ago I don't. I did, but that was a *very* long time ago, and I honestly have no idea if I still do. The key thing though is changing interests, and a lack of time. It's also worth pointing out that getting enough accurate documentation to do a proper model of many systems might be difficult. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 14 13:14:03 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:14:03 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <505373EB.6090306@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/12 10:52 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:04 PM -0700 9/13/12, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >> >> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. > > I'm surprised that no one has asked. Any idea who got it? > My guess is LCM. Rich may be willing to say one way or another. The bidding pattern matches what they do.. There are a handful of deep pockets collectors and speculators that would have been following this. By making it a "you have to guess the reserve" auction and the way he phrased the description "Bill Gates will buy this" and "pick it up with a limousine" I seriously underestimated the reserve. He could have set a buy it now at 10K and have gotten it. Like I said, the guy was a moron. If it was a speculator, we'll see it again at 10x the price. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 14 12:29:05 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:29:05 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> <5053443B.3050706@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50536961.6080104@verizon.net> Its a shame your not near MA, I could set you up with one. no shipping as its BA11N sized (21w,6h,28d roughly) and heavy. Allison Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-14, at 10:50 AM, Doc wrote: > > >> On 9/14/12 8:56 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> >>> I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? >>> >> Where are you located? >> >> >> > > I am in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. My parents live in Sarnia, just across the border from Port Huron, MI. I go back and forth fairly regular. > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 14 13:16:17 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:16:17 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50537471.7050704@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/12 10:54 AM, mc68010 wrote: > It actually sounds like a really fun hobby. If you were good at it I would imagine there would be a small market for selling your creations too. Sellam has been making decent bucks doing this with full-size PDP-1s From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:17:58 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:17:58 +0100 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 6:54 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/14/2012 10:46 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> >> Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like >> this? I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to modeling a >> PDP-10. >> >> Zane >> > > It actually sounds like a really fun hobby. If you were good at it I would > imagine there would be a small market for selling your creations too. > Recreate all the famous systems. I would totally do this if I had any model > making talent. I learned long ago I don't. > A bit of skill does not mean it is worth while see mid row of watering cans: http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2010/2010_07_27_tinware/IMG_0798.JPG I timed myself at the time I made some of those way back (about 15-20 years ago) I soon realised there is littles to be made unless you get a customer willing to pay the going rate. People often expect model prices too. But the skill did get me a clock making gig for a few years http://gears.archivist.info/ Now I occasionally make replacement parts for "things" Dave Caroline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:30:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:30:27 -0400 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like this? > I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to modeling a > PDP-10. I have not as of yet, but because of the studio photographs on the covers of many of the 1970s DEC handbooks, I've wanted to make 1/12 scale models of PDP-11s. For bonus points, the terminals would work. ;-) The mechanical data to draft these up is surely available in site planning guides and maintenance printsets. It's a lot of work, but I think it's totally feasible. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 13:38:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:38:09 -0400 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> On Sep 14, 2012, at 13:54, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/14/2012 10:46 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like this? I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to modeling a PDP-10. >> >> Zane >> > > It actually sounds like a really fun hobby. If you were good at it I would imagine there would be a small market for selling your creations too. Recreate all the famous systems. I would totally do this if I had any model making talent. I learned long ago I don't. Sounds like a better candidate for Etsy than destroying perfectly good vintage hard drives and making ugly clocks with the platters. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 13:51:50 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for an Apricot F1 or F1e In-Reply-To: References: <1347477746.3056.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 12, 12 12:22:26 pm Message-ID: <1347648710.96678.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> even the earliest Nimbus had asics? I was kind of hoping that happened in later models (I think my mobo dates from '87 or '88. Even American made/marketed pc's had loads by then). From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 14:31:02 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:31:02 -0700 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:30 PM -0400 9/14/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Out of curiosity, have any of us here created a model of a system like this? >> I have to admit that in the past I gave serious thought to modeling a >> PDP-10. > >I have not as of yet, but because of the studio photographs on the >covers of many of the 1970s DEC handbooks, I've wanted to make 1/12 >scale models of PDP-11s. For bonus points, the terminals would work. >;-) This brings up a great point on the original comment about model railroaders, and military modelers. The skill set you're looking for is actually Doll House makers, as (at least in the past) the typical scale is 1/12th. Before anyone scoffs, you should see the level of detail that people really into Doll Houses achieve. We're talking amazingly detailed works of art! >The mechanical data to draft these up is surely available in site >planning guides and maintenance printsets. It's a lot of work, but I >think it's totally feasible. For DEC systems I agree, for some others, I honestly have no idea what is available. I did some scratch-built modeling years ago, and the main problem was good drawings to go from. In many/most cases, better drawings should exist for DEC gear than I had back then for what I was modeling. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:39:32 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:39:32 -0500 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not sure if they're on this mailing list but someone did start making keychains based on old computers. I unfortunately don't recall who or if they ever made enough to sell. I think he had posted on vintage-computer.com forums. I sorta recall it being an Apple II and made out of some sorta stuff their CNC was doing. How cool would it be to come up with a pattern for a 3d printer for these :-) There have been quite a few of these models from what I've seen lately (unless they're all related and were questions prior to the sale). Not sure how the others ended in price. Was this one is such high demand because it was complete or just an uncommon part? From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:40:14 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:40:14 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5053881E.7090807@gmail.com> On 9/14/2012 11:17 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > A bit of skill does not mean it is worth while see mid row of watering > cans: > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2010/2010_07_27_tinware/IMG_0798.JPG > I timed myself at the time I made some of those way back (about 15-20 > years ago) I soon realised there is littles to be made unless you get > a customer willing to pay the going rate. People often expect model > prices too. But the skill did get me a clock making gig for a few > years http://gears.archivist.info/ Now I occasionally make replacement > parts for "things" Dave Caroline I didn't really mean you could make a living on it. Just meant I am sure there would people willing to buy your models after you were done. It would obviously be more about the enjoyment of making them and then sharing them. From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:41:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:41:09 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50538855.6030501@gmail.com> On 9/14/2012 11:38 AM, David Riley wrote: > Sounds like a better candidate for Etsy than destroying perfectly good > vintage hard drives and making ugly clocks with the platters. - Dave For sure. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:41:37 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:41:37 -0500 Subject: Osborne Battery (Was: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer) In-Reply-To: <934537794.1674413.1347630649063.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <934537794.1674413.1347630649063.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: The obvious question next, any pictures of it? From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Sep 14 14:44:24 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:44:24 +0000 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <505373EB.6090306@bitsavers.org> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <505373EB.6090306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CA9@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Al Kossow Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 11:14 AM > On 9/14/12 10:52 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 8:04 PM -0700 9/13/12, Al Kossow wrote: >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150895882532 >>> I am REALLY surprised no one said a word about this. >> I'm surprised that no one has asked. Any idea who got it? > My guess is LCM. Rich may be willing to say one way or another. The > bidding pattern matches what they do.. It was not us. Your original note in this thread was the first we had heard of it. We would probably not have bid, as we have less space for static displays than larger museums. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 14:46:38 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:46:38 -0700 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5053899E.4000509@gmail.com> On 9/14/2012 12:31 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > This brings up a great point on the original comment about model > railroaders, and military modelers. The skill set you're looking for > is actually Doll House makers, as (at least in the past) the typical > scale is 1/12th. Before anyone scoffs, you should see the level of > detail that people really into Doll Houses achieve. We're talking > amazingly detailed works of art! > >> The mechanical data to draft these up is surely available in site >> planning guides and maintenance printsets. It's a lot of work, but I >> think it's totally feasible. > > For DEC systems I agree, for some others, I honestly have no idea what > is available. I did some scratch-built modeling years ago, and the > main problem was good drawings to go from. In many/most cases, better > drawings should exist for DEC gear than I had back then for what I was > modeling. > > Zane > There is a fairly robust home 3D printing hobby thing going too. They could do a lot of these fairly quickly and accurately too. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:17:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:17:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: <4EE4954AF7054AB5B5001E2FB5585317@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 14, 12 08:22:45 am Message-ID: > > Not a bad way to test but do remember that the head solenoids were designed > for pulse operation so do not power more one at a time and don't leave the > power on for too long. You will find you need quite a low voltaeg to get the pins to extend. Typoca;;y these ehads are runm from 24V or 36V supply rails i nthe printer, but a 5V bench supply will normally operate them,. The actch is, of course, the operate a lot more slowly (due to the inductace of the coils) on the lower votlage. That's why the higher voltage is sued in operation. YEs, they will over heat if left on too long. But you can certainly test a head in this way, and clean the exposed part of the pin without damaging it., Of coruse you are not going to leave the head unattended when doign this. You are likely to be hand-holding the head. You will notice if it's getting hot. Incidentally, if you ever have to reasseble the X-axis drive suystme of the HP7245 printer/plotter, it helps to be able to lock the drive pulley whenyou are widning the drive cabel round it. I have found that energising one winding of the drive stepper motor (again, only 5 or 6 volts) will do this, and the motor doesn't get hot in the time it takes ot put the thing together. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:23:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:23:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Sep 14, 12 09:56:10 am Message-ID: > > I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any > particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about > $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? 'PDP' = 'Programmed Data Processor' and covers at least a dozen families of machines, with wildly different characteristics. The most common families are ,I think the PDP8 and the PDP11. The former is a 12 bit machine, the latter a 16 bit one. AS fro what to dlook for, theis depends -- a lot -- on why you want it. All I can say is what _I_ would look for, for what _I_ want. Since I am very much a hardware person, I would look for an older machine with the PCU built form mall-ish ICs (TTL, bipolar PROMs), For a PDP11, that means a Unibus machine, and not all of thsoe are suitable. My advice is to think what's important to you (things like blinkenlight panel, TTL-built CPU, ability to run a particualr OS, what sort of pewripherals do you want (do you want demountable hard drives or winchesters, for exemple). They you can decide on aome suitable machiens. and then you can work out how to pay for them ;-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 14:55:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120914125351.Y32212@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The mechanical data to draft these up is surely available in site > planning guides and maintenance printsets. It's a lot of work, but I > think it's totally feasible. Make the files for 3D printing! Create a library of all of the major machines! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Sep 14 14:59:52 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:59:52 +0000 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CD8@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Anderson Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 6:56 AM > I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any > particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about > $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? Most people have assumed that you're looking for a PDP-11 of some sort (16 bit system), although one asked you about a PDP-8/a (12 bits). You might be looking for a PDP-1, -4, -7, -9, or -15 (18 bits), or a PDP-6 or -10 (36 bits), or a PDP-5 or another model of -8 or a PDP-12 (all 12 bits), or even a PDP-14 or PDP-16 (build your own). I was once told, in another life, that I should get in touch with some oil industry people about a PDP-10 clone my company built, as "all those guys have PDPs in their trailers". They, of course, had PDP-11s. The sad part is, I was told this by a ranking member of DECUS, so I guess I should get over my irritation as the phrase "a PDP", right? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:00:48 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:00:48 -0500 Subject: Osborne Battery (Was: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer) In-Reply-To: References: <934537794.1674413.1347630649063.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Searching around a little bit it looks like perhaps a Dallas, TX based company named "*BITS INCORPORATED*" seems to have a classified looking ad for osborne users about a battery pack. It's just a text ad though so not sure what it looks like. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:02:13 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:02:13 -0500 Subject: Model Computers In-Reply-To: <50538855.6030501@gmail.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> <50536F6D.8070206@gmail.com> <61B863A7-CBAC-483C-866F-2718FC5AD432@gmail.com> <50538855.6030501@gmail.com> Message-ID: Better yet a micro fpga version. A functional micro datacenter. How awesome would that be lmao. I'd pay to see that at a computer museum. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 15:25:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone Message-ID: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I used to have 1/2 of one. Not the handset but the cradle and box. I tossed it. What would the whole thing have been worth? Nothing on eBay right now. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 15:48:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? Message-ID: <1347655697.44506.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> it's this Sunday. I am tempted. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Sep 14 15:52:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:52:22 +0200 Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? Message-ID: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the TMS320C20. I got that Chip to do something with it, not to display it somewhere. Maybe I can build a wirewrap board with it, but I want to program the firmware in C. Now I'm searching for an C Compiler that supports it, gcc does'nt unfortunately, there is some support for the TMS320C3x and 320C4x Processors which are floating point variants, the C20 is a Integer processor w/o fp. I know that there must be at least a TI C Cross-Compiler has existed for Dos, Solaris and other OS. Has someone a usable copy from such a thing? Kind Regards, Holm PS: this is for notalgia purposes only... -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:00:32 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:00:32 -0400 Subject: Interested in a PDP In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CD8@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <9CF165CC-99EE-4CFE-80F4-3242FF962071@me.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CD8@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Paul Anderson > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 6:56 AM > >> I've been wanting a PDP for some time now. I don't really have any >> particular model in mind, but my budget has an upper limit of about >> $1000. Any recommendations on where to look and what to look for? > > Most people have assumed that you're looking for a PDP-11 of some sort To be fair, he asked what he might get for under $1000, which pretty much shot everything but an -11 in my mind. I may be way out, but at least that's why I went straight for it; if you're lucky, you might MAYBE find an -8 of some sort for less than $1k. I do admit to not looking terribly hard. On the other hand, if someone has a PDP-10 they want to sell me for under $1000, I'm all about it (assuming I can sneak it past my wife, perhaps with the help of chloroform). - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 16:26:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I used to have 1/2 of one. Not the handset but the cradle and box. I > tossed it. What would the whole thing have been worth? Nothing on eBay > right now. Not much. It was 900MHz and did not work very well, so not of much interest to those who would actually want to use it. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 14 16:28:40 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:28:40 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CA9@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <505373EB.6090306@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA0CA9@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5053A188.9060309@bitsavers.org> On 9/14/12 12:44 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > It was not us. oops. It was the person who bid $75,000 and lost on the last apple I I knew the ID looked familiar. http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=150895882532 http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p2047675.l2565&rt=nc&item=160810171525 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 16:41:04 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:41:04 -0500 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <1347655697.44506.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347655697.44506.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds awesome. Would certainly go if it was a local event. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 14 17:52:15 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:52:15 -0500 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201209142303.q8EN3jLG083039@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:31 PM 9/14/2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >This brings up a great point on the original comment about model railroaders, and military modelers. The skill set you're looking for is actually Doll House makers, as (at least in the past) the typical scale is 1/12th. Before anyone scoffs, you should see the level of detail that people really into Doll Houses achieve. We're talking amazingly detailed works of art! For many years, I consulted at a pottery place. Beyond a full line of full-size household antique-y salt glaze products, they made tiny versions of bowls, pie plates, pitchers, etc. for the American Doll collectors. The tiny 1", 2", 3" versions cost as much as the full size pieces, as they took the same amount of time by the potter and decorator. So collectors would cheerfully pay $30 for a mini pie plate not as big as an ashtray. - John From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 14 18:19:45 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking ASCII keyboard for Wyse 99gt or similar terminal Message-ID: Somehow the keyboard to my Wyse 99gt serial terminal has gone missing. Does anyone here have a US ASCII keyboard compatible with this terminal? Compatibles include WY-50, WY-55, WY-60, WY-99GT, WY-120, WY-150, WY-160, WY-325, WY-370 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 18:52:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 16:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? Message-ID: <1347666775.15791.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> arent you on the west coast? What is that piddly event compared to the amount of tech out there?? You may be able to find a few more jumbo culture bottles at the Flea. Used but steam cleaned! ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 2:41 PM PDT Sam O'nella wrote: >Sounds awesome. Would certainly go if it was a local event. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 19:07:28 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:07:28 -0500 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <1347666775.15791.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347666775.15791.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nah, I down South in an area that you would THINK would have lots of neat tech findings but it's mostly new tech here and a lack of vintage. From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 14 19:40:13 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:40:13 -0400 Subject: Osborne Battery (Was: Re: Origins of term "laptop" computer) In-Reply-To: References: <934537794.1674413.1347630649063.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: >>> Searching around a little bit it looks like perhaps a Dallas, TX based company named "*BITS INCORPORATED*" seems to have a classified looking ad for osborne users about a battery pack. It's just a text ad though so not sure what it looks like. Google Books shows that ad running from July 5, 1982 - Sep. 13, 1982. As of the Sep. 20 issue it's marketed as a backup power supply, with no mention of Osborne. From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 14 19:55:58 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:55:58 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0fef0d83db552c3f285b09f5c23b3df3.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>>> The Gavilan computer was called a "laptop" when it was introduced at NCC (National Computer Conference) in Anaheim May 16, 1983. >>> Documentation of that? >> NONE! I was there. Let me rephrase my question ... when you say "called a 'laptop'" what exactly do you mean by that? For example, were there Gavilan employees calling it a laptop? Was there literature or signs using that word? Sales order forms? Please be specific about how/where you recall it being called a "laptop". (I don't mean that as a challenge to your honesty, I just sincerely would like to know.) >>>> Whoa, I never head of Elcompco. Link? >> VERY smalltime, and thoroughly gone long before WWW. Joe Garner needed something very portable for data acquisition in elevator control rooms. ELevator COMPuter COmpany. He found a good machinist, and designed brackets, mounts, etc. for putting various motherboards (including TRS80! and later 5150/5160) and a crude CP/M board of his own into Halliburton attache cases, with a 5" CRT and optional battery. He was selling a few, and I convinced him to do a production run and try public sales, starting at my West Coast Computer Faire booth. He sold a few during setup! Meanwhile, massive amounts of chrome and black plexiglass was going up across the aisle. Adam came across the aisle, admired it, shook my hand, and then went and told his press conference that his computer was "the very first and only portable computer". Nice ... I've heard similar first-person stories documenting how many examples of prior art Osborne saw before making his own version. >> The whole thing is completely unworthy of ANY historical note, other than as my further refutation of others' claims of being "first". I agree; that computer is one of several tiny players pre-Osborne. Individually they're footnotes; together they represent an era. >> There is ALWAYS some nobody so small that they got crushed "Always" is as dangerous a word as "first". I'll agree to "often". :) >>>> Osborne was the first * big successful smash hit * of its category and generation. >> But NOT the first made, shown, sold, nor delivered. LOL, stop arguing, I agree with you. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 19:46:01 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? Message-ID: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> you dont find oodles of vintage stuff anywhere. You may chance upon something at the Flea. Its been five years for me, 10-12 prior that. It never blew my socks off. There were a few guys with machinery last time, which always lights my fire. ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 5:07 PM PDT Sam O'nella wrote: >Nah, I down South in an area that you would THINK would have lots of neat >tech findings but it's mostly new tech here and a lack of vintage. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 19:46:58 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:46:58 -0700 Subject: Roytron paper tape reader/punch - Seattle area, free if you collect. Message-ID: Anyone interested in a Roytron paper tape reader/punch? Looks like this one, but definitely in used condition, not like the new looking one pictured here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200712902556 Working condition unknown. Was military surplus (govliquidation). No documentation. Manuals here may or may not apply to some of the mechanical or electrical components in this model: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/roytron/ Free to a good home only if you collect in the Seattle (eastside) area. Reply off list if interested. -Glen From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 14 19:52:09 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:52:09 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> Never even heard of it before... so they killed I with that one model? No 2.4ghz or higher models later on? Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> I used to have 1/2 of one. Not the handset but the cradle and box. I >> tossed it. What would the whole thing have been worth? Nothing on eBay >> right now. >> > > Not much. > It was 900MHz and did not work very well, so not of much interest to those > who would actually want to use it. > > From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 19:54:42 2012 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 17:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? In-Reply-To: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1347670482.79599.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I remember programming a C20 or C25 back in 1988 or so, using a pretty mediocre TI compiler.? I recall having to look at the output not so much for buggy assembly output, but to identify any really egregiously inefficient code.? To my recollection, those chips were pretty easy to program in assembler, and that was pretty much necessary for any really timing critical code.??? (On the plus side, there was a great in-circuit emulator, and I used the lovable BRIEF editor, by underware) I think the 320C20 is the same underlying architecture as the 320C2xx series, and may be supported by some older, possibly free, versions of the TI development environment, Code Composer. Good luck! Dave >________________________________ > From: Holm Tiffe >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 3:52 PM >Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? > >Hi, >a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip >that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the >TMS320C20. > >I got that Chip to do something with it, not to display it somewhere. >Maybe I can build a wirewrap board with it, but I want to program the >firmware in C. >Now I'm searching for an C Compiler that supports it, gcc does'nt >unfortunately, there is some support for the TMS320C3x and 320C4x >Processors which are floating point variants, the C20 is a Integer >processor w/o fp. >I know that there must be at least a TI C Cross-Compiler has existed >for Dos, Solaris and other OS. > >Has someone a usable copy from such a thing? > >Kind Regards, > >Holm > >PS: this is for notalgia purposes only... > >-- >? ? ? Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >? ? Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >? www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:05:28 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:05:28 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2012 6:01 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > Never even heard of it before... so they killed I with that one model? No 2.4ghz or higher models later on? > http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Cordless_Phone_System From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 20:08:05 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:08:05 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Never even heard of it before... so they killed I with that one model? No > 2.4ghz or higher models later on? It seems that every good sized computer company explores the telephone market, and many actually bring some sort of product to market, mostly leading to disaster. USR, IBM, and Data General all come to mind. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 20:25:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <0fef0d83db552c3f285b09f5c23b3df3.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <20120913143513.Q2816@shell.lmi.net> <57ec4f91bfedfcc9cea9ec7c76c24a8f.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20120913212128.C12935@shell.lmi.net> <0fef0d83db552c3f285b09f5c23b3df3.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20120914181919.N39079@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> The Gavilan computer was called a "laptop" when it was introduced at > NCC (National Computer Conference) in Anaheim May 16, 1983. On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Let me rephrase my question ... when you say "called a 'laptop'" what > exactly do you mean by that? For example, were there Gavilan employees > calling it a laptop? YES!! > Was there literature or signs using that word? Signs. I don't remember the details of the literature > "Always" is as dangerous a word as "first". I'll agree to "often". :) agreed > >>>> Osborne was the first * big successful smash hit * of its category > and generation. and THAT is what the public means by "first" But, each person has theirt own qualifiers. You reject "laptop" as a definition if it requires a cord. Some people will reject anything with a screen of less than 16 lines or 32 characters. There's prob'ly somebody somewhere who objects to calling something a computer if it doesn't have a COLR screen. SOME people reject anything that they hadn't heard of. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 20:30:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 18:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120914142510.T34300@shell.lmi.net> <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20120914182613.V39079@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Never even heard of it before... so they killed I with that one model? yes > No 2.4ghz or higher models later on? no it was one of the early ordinary cordless phones with the base cradle connected to a computer. "Do not use a portable or laptop computer." It saved the caller ID data. It claimed to have a TTY/TDD cpability, but nobody at MICROS~1 "tech support" could tell me how to open a TTY window, with any more detail than reading aloud from the list of features: "It says right here, 'Can do TDD communication'. We'll get back to you." From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 14 20:36:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:36:14 -0400 Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? In-Reply-To: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5053DB8E.9030105@neurotica.com> On 09/14/2012 04:52 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip > that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the > TMS320C20. > > I got that Chip to do something with it, not to display it somewhere. > Maybe I can build a wirewrap board with it, but I want to program the > firmware in C. > Now I'm searching for an C Compiler that supports it, gcc does'nt > unfortunately, there is some support for the TMS320C3x and 320C4x > Processors which are floating point variants, the C20 is a Integer > processor w/o fp. > I know that there must be at least a TI C Cross-Compiler has existed > for Dos, Solaris and other OS. Does GCC's related target support handle the -msoft-float option? If it does, that might work, generating integer-only instructions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 14 20:40:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:40:18 -0400 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> On 09/14/2012 08:46 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > you dont find oodles of vintage stuff anywhere. You may chance upon > something at the Flea. Its been five years for me, 10-12 prior that. Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay more than a dollar or two for one. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Sep 14 21:08:29 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:08:29 -0700 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5053E31D.20503@gorge.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/14/2012 08:46 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> you dont find oodles of vintage stuff anywhere. You may chance upon >> something at the Flea. Its been five years for me, 10-12 prior that. > Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in > any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay > more than a dollar or two for one. ;) > > -Dave > Maybe 30 years ago ;-) But then, those weren't classic. -jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 14 21:20:48 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:20:48 -0600 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5053E600.4050304@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/14/2012 7:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in > any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay > more than a dollar or two for one. ;) I put more faith in this quote. " I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner drugstore, but in 1955, it's a little hard to come by. " > -Dave > From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 14 21:25:20 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 02:25:20 +0000 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" Message-ID: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> >> each person has their own qualifiers. You reject "laptop" as a definition if it requires a cord. Mine is right. :) >> SOME people reject anything that they hadn't heard of. Sounds like this list... In 2005 Toshiba announced the 20th anniversary of when they invented the laptop. When pressed, they claimed theirs was the "first" with a 286 (who knows), and that clearly a laptop is only a laptop if it's got a 286 or newer. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 14 21:34:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 19:34:24 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2012 at 21:08, William Donzelli wrote: > It seems that every good sized computer company explores the telephone > market, and many actually bring some sort of product to market, mostly > leading to disaster. USR, IBM, and Data General all come to mind. IBM did pretty well with their acquisition of Rolm. I still have a Rolm frisbee for playing with the dogs. OTOH, telephone companies didn't do all that well in the computer business. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 14 21:38:09 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:38:09 -0400 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <5053E600.4050304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> <5053E600.4050304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5053EA11.6040501@verizon.net> On 09/14/2012 10:20 PM, ben wrote: > On 9/14/2012 7:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in >> any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay >> more than a dollar or two for one. ;) > > > I put more faith in this quote. > > " I'm sure that in 1985, plutonium is available in every corner > drugstore, but in 1955, it's a little hard to come by. " > >> -Dave >> > > Well in PDP country and MIT flea and anywhere within 30+ miles of "The greater Maynard area" they tend to be far more common. And up till about 10 years ago they were common in the dumpsters as most people had more than they needed or wanted. Even I started refusing them as I maxed out on Qbus 11s. The second epicenter of PDP-whatevers was the research centers and universities who sadly have dumped theirs at least before the last decade. but up to that point they were like house flies. Now we have "collectors" that have not a clue what they are driving the prices up. Allison From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Sep 14 22:12:02 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:12:02 -0700 Subject: IBM and ROLM, was: Re: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com>, <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 14 Sep 2012, at 7:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IBM did pretty well with their acquisition of Rolm. I still have a > Rolm frisbee for playing with the dogs. I was at MilSpec at the time that happened. From our perspective IBM borked it; they should have purchased telcom from MilSpec rather than buying the entire lash up and being pushed into the consent decree because of the conflict between MilSpec and their existing Federal Systems division. OTOH for those of us at MilSpec it was great; our underwater ROLM options got translated favorably into not-underwater-at-all IBM options (with a dedicated banker on hand to write bridge loans for people who wanted to cash out); a sort of retention trust fund was created to encourage employees not to jump ship and the capital budget was endless; I believe I ordered two MV/10000s and three MV/4000s and received *zero* pushback from anyone. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 22:24:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone Message-ID: <1347679475.58633.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> lol Fred actually bought one to use (I guess well have to allow for it being a gift. Suuuuuure). THEN he calls the Microsloth help desk. And let the record reflect my invention of that term. And yes I am quite sure... ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 6:30 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Never even heard of it before... so they killed I with that one model? >yes >> No 2.4ghz or higher models later on? >no > >it was one of the early ordinary cordless phones with the base cradle >connected to a computer. "Do not use a portable or laptop computer." >It saved the caller ID data. It claimed to have a TTY/TDD cpability, but >nobody at MICROS~1 "tech support" could tell me how to open a TTY window, >with any more detail than reading aloud from the list of features: "It >says right here, 'Can do TDD communication'. We'll get back to you." > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 22:28:33 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? Message-ID: <1347679713.11400.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> the crowd can emgage in whatever famtastical notions they wish Dave. All I know is the stuff I pine for is very hard to find. ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 6:40 PM PDT Dave McGuire wrote: >On 09/14/2012 08:46 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> you dont find oodles of vintage stuff anywhere. You may chance upon >> something at the Flea. Its been five years for me, 10-12 prior that. > > Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in >any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay >more than a dollar or two for one. ;) > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 22:31:20 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 23:31:20 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347654341.3431.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053D139.2040303@atarimuseum.com> <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > IBM did pretty well with their acquisition of Rolm. I still have a > Rolm frisbee for playing with the dogs. But not with the IBM 1750 System some 12 years previous. -- Will From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 22:40:02 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone Message-ID: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> thats so funny. I hope Ill eventually remembes who I was conversing with, or even when it was, but was told that phone companies should have been way ahead. After all a computer is just a bunch of switches (one of the best definitions of a computer imho, albeit informal, for those with a smattering of electronics knowledge). ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 7:34 PM PDT Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 14 Sep 2012 at 21:08, William Donzelli wrote: > >> It seems that every good sized computer company explores the telephone >> market, and many actually bring some sort of product to market, mostly >> leading to disaster. USR, IBM, and Data General all come to mind. > >IBM did pretty well with their acquisition of Rolm. I still have a >Rolm frisbee for playing with the dogs. > >OTOH, telephone companies didn't do all that well in the computer >business. > >--Chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 22:51:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 20:51:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> each person has their own qualifiers. You reject "laptop" as a > definition if it requires a cord. > Mine is right. :) Well, certainly more defensible than the majority of the qualifiers! > >> SOME people reject anything that they hadn't heard of. > Sounds like this list... Actually, this list is aware of some of the obscure stuff. I was referring to the ones who argue whether Apple or IBM invented microcomputers. > In 2005 Toshiba announced the 20th anniversary of when they invented the > laptop. When pressed, they claimed theirs was the "first" with a 286 > (who knows), and that clearly a laptop is only a laptop if it's got a > 286 or newer. YOU might need to speak up (7 years ago)! if it's the one that I think that they're talking about, it was a clamshell, but only ran off of mains power! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 23:00:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <1347679475.58633.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347679475.58633.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120914205254.T42548@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > lol Fred actually bought one to use (I guess well have to allow for it > being a gift. Suuuuuure). I bought it [cheap] at the Foothill swap. Yes. to use it. In my business, I always had a log of incoming phone messages. I wanted a system where the caller ID would create the entry in the log with date, time, phone number; let me type in what I could decipher from the answearing machine; and dial the phone number if I clicked on that cell of the log. I also needed a TDD, for which it did NOT work. > THEN he calls the Microsloth help desk. And Yeah, THAT wasn't very bright. > let the record reflect my invention of that term. And yes I am quite > sure... Sorry, doctor Marty has been saying "Microsloth" since 1983. From hachti at hachti.de Fri Sep 14 23:18:40 2012 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 06:18:40 +0200 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <505401A0.5040809@hachti.de> Am 15.09.2012 03:40, schrieb Dave McGuire: > Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in > any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay > more than a dollar or two for one. ;) Only in every fifth dumpster!! :-) -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 23:23:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 21:23:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <1347679713.11400.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347679713.11400.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120914211300.W42548@shell.lmi.net> > Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in > any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay > more than a dollar or two for one. ;) There WAS such a situation at one time. One of my colleagues acquired through dumpster diving way more stuff (including a PDP11), than he could store, and our college administrators tried to fire him for "being a hoarder". I have a standing offer: If John Titor will provide me with one way transportation to 1962, I will, when it becomes feasible, get him a 5100 with APL AND BASIC, and make a few minor investments to fund his entire project. If anybody else can send me back half a century, then when it becomes feasible, I will stash a few hundred choice machines. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 14 23:32:13 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 00:32:13 -0400 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> <505401A0.5040809@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0FF2601B85BF4134B79081C70889CCB5@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 12:18 AM Subject: Re: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? > Am 15.09.2012 03:40, schrieb Dave McGuire: >> Heh. If you listen to this crowd, PDP-11s and ASR33s can be found in >> any dumpster or on any street corner anytime, and nobody should ever pay >> more than a dollar or two for one. ;) > > Only in every fifth dumpster!! :-) > > > -- Well I have noticed some stuff that I have a bunch of that used to be common as dirt tend to dry up in a few years when other people are looking for them. I would think collectors pre ebay (and pre the gold rush of recyclers) would be buying old rarities for next to no money because there was no market for the stuff. You know back ages ago when the economy was good and you had to PAY people to haul that e-waste out for you. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 00:01:39 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 01:01:39 -0400 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <0FF2601B85BF4134B79081C70889CCB5@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> <505401A0.5040809@hachti.de> <0FF2601B85BF4134B79081C70889CCB5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:32 AM, TeoZ wrote: > You know back ages ago when the economy was good and > you had to PAY people to haul that e-waste out for you. >From the mid-1980s through the mid-1990s, I acquired a few PDP-11s and a couple off VAXen that way, but that all dried up over 15 years ago. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 00:01:34 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:01:34 -0700 Subject: anyone (still) going to the MIT Flea Market? In-Reply-To: <0FF2601B85BF4134B79081C70889CCB5@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1347669961.81269.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5053DC82.7050102@neurotica.com> <505401A0.5040809@hachti.de> <0FF2601B85BF4134B79081C70889CCB5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <50540BAE.9040704@gmail.com> On 9/14/2012 9:32 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > Well I have noticed some stuff that I have a bunch of that used to be > common as dirt tend to dry up in a few years when other people are > looking for them. I would think collectors pre ebay (and pre the gold > rush of recyclers) would be buying old rarities for next to no money > because there was no market for the stuff. You know back ages ago when > the economy was good and you had to PAY people to haul that e-waste > out for you. > In the 90's nobody wanted the stuff other than the metal guys. They didn't even really care. There weren't really computer collectors. You couldn't even give it away most times. There were a few USENET groups you could buy, sell, or give away things but, it was hard. I bought all of Xerox PARC's surplus once and out of a 53' semi full of stuff I think 75% just ended up with the scrappers or in the trash . I begged people to take the computers. Wasn't a lot of interest. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 01:51:54 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 07:51:54 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <505386C0.14964.2705681@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5DECD71BF23D4398BE785FED61D241B5@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 15 September 2012 03:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Microsoft cordless phone > > > On 14 Sep 2012 at 21:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > > It seems that every good sized computer company explores > the telephone > > market, and many actually bring some sort of product to > market, mostly > > leading to disaster. USR, IBM, and Data General all come to mind. > > IBM did pretty well with their acquisition of Rolm. I still have a > Rolm frisbee for playing with the dogs. > Interesting perspective. In Europe IBM already was a telephone provider:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_1750,_2750_and_3750_Switching_Systems and in Europe the ROLM was not a success as a replacement. The IBM switches used "normal" touch tone phones, where as the Rolm needed proprietary handsets. Looks like they did better in the states, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROLM but the data and telephony integration that the Rolm delivers just doesn't work well for IBM sites where you use 5250 or 3270's on CO-AX or Twin-Ax connections. > OTOH, telephone companies didn't do all that well in the computer > business. > I think again it might be different in Europe. Is Siemens a Telephone or a Computer company? They did pretty well at both... > --Chuck > > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 00:36:37 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 00:36:37 -0500 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <20120914205254.T42548@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347679475.58633.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120914205254.T42548@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: wow, I was just thinking about these things a few months ago, remembering middle school, and getting ahold of my first windows 95 CDs ( this was to repair my home computer I broke, that displayed "Missing operating system" at POST. you must remember, this was before everyone and their neighbors had High Speed Internet in the home and torrents I believe existed but weren't well known and CD burners were still on the horizon, they were beginning to advertise 98 SE as THE NEXT BIG THING!) and finding the demos on the disc, and the MS cordless phone was the coolest thing ever! At the time, at my age, anything that had anything to do with the COM port, let alone a phone, was cool in my eyes. Wow, this took me back, the simplest things used to be so cool. But I'm sure my kids will say "why don't we have 10Gb/s internet like the Joneses down the street?" to which I will respond by playing the dial-up sound off of some device, maybe an actual modem! :) (If I want to be a real jerk I will root around their browser code and find some way to play the dial-up sound every time they open it! Good idea for an office prank as well no?) On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > lol Fred actually bought one to use (I guess well have to allow for it > > being a gift. Suuuuuure). > > I bought it [cheap] at the Foothill swap. Yes. to use it. In my > business, I always had a log of incoming phone messages. I wanted a > system where the caller ID would create the entry in the log with date, > time, phone number; let me type in what I could decipher from the > answearing machine; and dial the phone number if I clicked on that cell of > the log. I also needed a TDD, for which it did NOT work. > > > THEN he calls the Microsloth help desk. And > Yeah, THAT wasn't very bright. > > let the record reflect my invention of that term. And yes I am quite > > sure... > > Sorry, doctor Marty has been saying "Microsloth" since 1983. > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Sep 15 02:59:40 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 03:59:40 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >> I was referring to the ones who argue whether Apple or IBM invented microcomputers. Neither, it was Microsoft! >>>> In 2005 Toshiba announced the 20th anniversary of when they invented the laptop. When pressed, they claimed theirs was the "first" with a 286 (who knows), and that clearly a laptop is only a laptop if it's got a 286 or newer. >> YOU might need to speak up (7 years ago)! if it's the one that I think that they're talking about, it was a clamshell, but only ran off of mains power! I'm referring to the T1100. News to me if it only ran off AC -- in which case (surprise) I declare it a portable computer ("one that's primarily designed to be an easy-to-move-around all-in-one system") but not a laptop (because, in case anyone forgot already, laptops bring their power with them in the aforementioned portable unit). Had I realized the T1100's no-battery status (if indeed that's the truth about it), then I would have made a big ruckus about it at the time. From evan at snarc.net Sat Sep 15 03:07:42 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 04:07:42 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <137443f9c5a94b4e12b2029a3bfbf542.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>>> if it's the one that I think that they're talking about, it was a clamshell, but only ran off of mains power! >> I'm referring to the T1100. News to me if it only ran off AC Ah ... apparently that one did have a battery: http://www.toshiba-europe.com/computers/products/notebooks/t1100/ Which one were thinking about? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 15 10:35:56 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20120915082332.M56722@shell.lmi.net> > the laptop. When pressed, they claimed theirs was the "first" with a > 286 (who knows), and that clearly a laptop is only a laptop if it's > got a 286 or newer. > > YOU might need to speak up (7 years ago)! if it's the one that I think > > that they're talking about, it was a clamshell, but only ran off of > > mains power! On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm referring to the T1100. That was 386? I thought that their 286 clamshell was the 3100 (plasma? display and AC cord) Or am I totally scrambled as to their numbering (1200 before 1000, etc.) > News to me if it only ran off AC -- in which > case (surprise) I declare it a portable computer ("one that's primarily > designed to be an easy-to-move-around all-in-one system") How did the word "easy" get in there? > Had I realized the T1100's no-battery status (if indeed that's the truth > about it), then I would have made a big ruckus about it at the time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 15 10:39:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 08:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <137443f9c5a94b4e12b2029a3bfbf542.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <137443f9c5a94b4e12b2029a3bfbf542.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20120915083650.A56722@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> if it's the one that I think that they're talking about, it was a > clamshell, but only ran off of mains power! > >> I'm referring to the T1100. News to me if it only ran off AC > Ah ... apparently that one did have a battery: > http://www.toshiba-europe.com/computers/products/notebooks/t1100/ THAT was an 80C88, NOT a 286, therefore NOT the machine referred to in previous post which said 80286 was a requirement for a "laptop"! > Which one were thinking about? T3100 http://www.toshiba-europe.com/computers/products/notebooks/t3100/ -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 15 11:00:10 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 09:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer, and absurdity of "first" In-Reply-To: <20120915082332.M56722@shell.lmi.net> References: <1077639595-1347675921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-571722585-@b11.c15.bise6.blackberry> <20120914204803.J42548@shell.lmi.net> <1d90221c99a8655300451957072f14fe.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> <20120915082332.M56722@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120915085556.B56722@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > the laptop. When pressed, they claimed theirs was the "first" with a > > 286 (who knows), and that clearly a laptop is only a laptop if it's > > got a 286 or newer. > > > YOU might need to speak up (7 years ago)! if it's the one that I think > > > that they're talking about, it was a clamshell, but only ran off of > > > mains power! > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > I'm referring to the T1100. > > That was 386? TYPO! "That was 286?" From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 12:29:40 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 10:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller Message-ID: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> if you wanted to add PCMCIA capability to something resembling an ISA slot (but different in many ways, particularly the form factor), what would be the best way to go about this? Obviously many micro controllers have this built in (I would think). I'm looking for something quick and dirty. Off the top of your head. I'm reading into this, but it doesn't hurt to ask. I took apart an HP Jornada VGA adapter (PCMCIA > VGA out) for connecting to an external monitor. There's very little in there. There's a Trident chip (9440-3), 2 memory chips, a couple of other chips (glue of some sort I guess) and passive components. It's the closest thing I've seen to a VGA on a chip solution (I haven't looked, but it's pretty close). Therefore I need to either hack the PCMCIA interface to get it to work w/say a Tandy 2000 bus (or another 8086/80186 based computer). Or create a PCMCIA interface on a card to plug the pc card into, which kind of seems like the long way, but might turn out to being the easier solution. You tell me. Keep in mind I don't need the hot swapping capability or card services stack (can a card function w/o them?). Initially it was designed to add memory. I'm thinking all the rest of the gobligook came along after they realized people might want to add the kitchen sink to laptops and handhelds. 16 bit capability is of course adequate. I imagine I'll have to right a device driver. ISA PCMCIA adapters are mondo pricey on eBay. Icarumba. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 15 12:40:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:40:56 -0400 Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> On 09/15/2012 01:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > if you wanted to add PCMCIA capability to something resembling an ISA > slot (but different in many ways, particularly the form factor), what > would be the best way to go about this? Obviously many micro > controllers have this built in (I would think). I'm looking for > something quick and dirty. Off the top of your head. I'm reading into > this, but it doesn't hurt to ask. > > I took apart an HP Jornada VGA adapter (PCMCIA > VGA out) for > connecting to an external monitor. There's very little in there. > There's a Trident chip (9440-3), 2 memory chips, a couple of other > chips (glue of some sort I guess) and passive components. It's the > closest thing I've seen to a VGA on a chip solution (I haven't > looked, but it's pretty close). Therefore I need to either hack the > PCMCIA interface to get it to work w/say a Tandy 2000 bus (or another > 8086/80186 based computer). Or create a PCMCIA interface on a card to > plug the pc card into, which kind of seems like the long way, but > might turn out to being the easier solution. You tell me. > > Keep in mind I don't need the hot swapping capability or card > services stack (can a card function w/o them?). Initially it was > designed to add memory. I'm thinking all the rest of the gobligook > came along after they realized people might want to add the kitchen > sink to laptops and handhelds. 16 bit capability is of course > adequate. I imagine I'll have to right a device driver. The Trident 9440 is the VGA controller, as you probably know. There are several ISA<->PCMCIA bridge chips out there; TI made one for example, though I don't recall the number. > ISA PCMCIA adapters are mondo pricey on eBay. Icarumba. Seriously? I probably have a few buried somewhere. They were trashed by the thousands in pallets of PCs coming via DRMO auctions. Not terribly useful. If you need one badly enough I will go digging, but it sounds like that might not be exactly what you need due to form-factor issues..? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 12:54:23 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 10:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1347731663.74408.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire > ISA PCMCIA adapters are mondo pricey on eBay. Icarumba. ? Seriously?? I probably have a few buried somewhere.? They were trashed by the thousands in pallets of PCs coming via DRMO auctions. Not terribly useful.? If you need one badly enough I will go digging, but it sounds like that might not be exactly what you need due to form-factor issues..? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave C: It's the electrical differences that are the major issues. Don't knock yourself out, but it would be nice for the community to have one to study at least. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 13:17:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 11:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1347733024.44441.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ok...work with me for a minute. So little is used to interface this sparse set of chips to a pc card bus. But the Trident chip must have been designed to interface w/ISA or PCI systems. Therefore doesn't appear that this chip "set" is largely bus agnostic? Here's a picture of a PCI card (I would imagine an early one): http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/content/article/232-trident-tgui-9440-3 Can't seem to find a (free) data sheet though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 15 13:28:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:28:52 -0400 Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <1347733024.44441.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> <1347733024.44441.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5054C8E4.3090003@neurotica.com> On 09/15/2012 02:17 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Ok...work with me for a minute. So little is used to interface this sparse set of chips to a pc card bus. But the Trident chip must have been designed to interface w/ISA or PCI systems. Therefore doesn't appear that this chip "set" is largely bus agnostic? Here's a picture of a PCI card (I would imagine an early one): > > http://www.vgamuseum.info/index.php/component/content/article/232-trident-tgui-9440-3 > > Can't seem to find a (free) data sheet though. The Trident 9000 series (or at least their basic cores) wer available for both ISA and PCI buses, as well as VLB. The chips are bus-specific but don't require much glue. Remember the ISA bus is little more than the CPU bus of the 8088; interfacing stuff to ISA cards borders on trivial. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 14:01:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:01:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm Message-ID: > > > thats so funny. I hope Ill eventually remembes who I was conversing > with, or even when it was, but was told that phone companies should have > been way ahead. After all a computer is just a bunch of switches (one of > the best definitions of a computer imho, albeit informal, for those with > a smattering of electronics knowledge). As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of switching systems. And how many computer debvelopments came from the Bell Telephone labs? -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 14:40:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm Message-ID: <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell And how many computer developments came from the Bell Telephone labs. C: They were were experimenting w/biological computers at one point. I think they may have gotten close to a NAND gate utilizing 2 slugs (the slimy kind). ?I met a guy last winter, who was very down on his luck, but had quite a resume (We stood out in the cold for 3+ hours talking w/him. My feet were frozen). He claimed that Northern Telecom in Canada was way ahead of anything Bell Labs/AT & T was doing. Perhaps not w/slugs though. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 14:54:45 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 12:54:45 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm, Message-ID: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2012 at 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK > in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO > research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the > telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of > switching systems. Maybe, but in the 70s when I visited, telephones in Britain were a nightmare compared to their US counterparts--particularly pay telephones. And doesn't England still have coin-op residential electrical service? When I heard this referred to on an old "Steptoe and Son" broadcast, it seemed very backward to me (you apparently needed a lot of 1s coins to keep out of the dark). > And how many computer debvelopments came from the Bell Telephone labs? A lot, granted. But that came from a time when Ma Bell was prohibited from getting into the computer business. After the consent decree and breakup, she went downhill fast. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 15 15:05:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > anything Bell Labs/AT & T was doing. Perhaps not w/slugs though. When my cousin (David Ungar) went to teach at Stanford (~20 years ago), he told me that there was a group there reverse engineering banana slugs. so that they can build artificial ones? . . . and then use those artificial ones (which presumablyu need lots of resources) as builfing blocks for making gates? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 15 15:20:20 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:20:20 -0600 Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5054E304.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/15/2012 2:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> anything Bell Labs/AT & T was doing. Perhaps not w/slugs though. > > When my cousin (David Ungar) went to teach at Stanford (~20 years ago), he > told me that there was a group there reverse engineering banana slugs. > so that they can build artificial ones? and you complain DOS is sluggish. > . . . and then use those artificial ones (which presumablyu need lots of > resources) as builfing blocks for making gates? > Well I guess they have to compete with the SNAILS in the Post Office. Ducks any large equipment thrown this way. Ben. BTW in my local area in the 80's, used videotex equipment was surplus. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 15:22:34 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:22:34 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 15 September 2012 20:55 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Microsoft cordless phone > > > On 15 Sep 2012 at 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking > in the UK > > in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO > > research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the > > telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great > expereience of > > switching systems. > > Maybe, but in the 70s when I visited, telephones in Britain were a > nightmare compared to their US counterparts--particularly pay > telephones. We were very slow in upgrading exchanges to handle touch tone phones, and System-x http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_X_(telephony) was only deployed from 1980 onwards nearly 20 years after the USA. The Post Office and then British Telecom were directly owned and managed by the Government. (Actually some say they were managed by the Unions). This made us very slow to deploy new technology as convincing a government to invest in new technology ... > And doesn't England still have coin-op residential > electrical service? When I heard this referred to on an old > "Steptoe and Son" broadcast, it seemed very backward to me (you > apparently needed a lot of 1s coins to keep out of the dark). > I don't think we still have coin fed utility meters, but they were common place for many years. I well remember my Gran counting the coins out of one of the meters, and getting some back. We do however have pre-payment meters. Not sure if this link is visible out side the UK... http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/prepayment-meters but it explains the hows and whys... > > And how many computer debvelopments came from the Bell > Telephone labs? > > A lot, granted. But that came from a time when Ma Bell was > prohibited from getting into the computer business. After the > consent decree and breakup, she went downhill fast. > > --Chuck > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 15:26:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:26:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bad disks Message-ID: <1347740764.32849.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> you've done what you could. The data seems irretrievable. Theoretically is it possibly to retrieve bits via optical means? Is it practical? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 15:28:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 13:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054E304.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 14, 12 08:40:02 pm <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> <5054E304.1030508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1347740897.79831.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: ben Well I guess they have to compete with the SNAILS in the Post Office. Ducks any large equipment thrown this way. C: What about ducks? Can a pair of them produce a XOR gate or something maybe? QUAX. LOL sounds like an OS! If I were to write one that's what I'll call it -QU/AX From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Sep 15 15:38:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:38:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > if you wanted to add PCMCIA capability to something resembling an ISA > slot (but different in many ways, particularly the form factor), what > would be the best way to go about this? Obviously many micro controllers > have this built in (I would think). I'm looking for something quick and > dirty. Off the top of your head. I'm reading into this, but it doesn't > hurt to ask. > > I took apart an HP Jornada VGA adapter (PCMCIA > VGA out) for connecting > to an external monitor. There's very little in there. There's a Trident > chip (9440-3), 2 memory chips, a couple of other chips (glue of some > sort I guess) and passive components. It's the closest thing I've seen > to a VGA on a chip solution (I haven't looked, but it's pretty close). > Therefore I need to either hack the PCMCIA interface to get it to work > w/say a Tandy 2000 bus (or another 8086/80186 based computer). Or create > a PCMCIA interface on a card to plug the pc card into, which kind of > seems like the long way, but might turn out to being the easier > solution. You tell me. > > Keep in mind I don't need the hot swapping capability or card services > stack (can a card function w/o them?). Initially it was designed to add > memory. I'm thinking all the rest of the gobligook came along after they > realized people might want to add the kitchen sink to laptops and > handhelds. 16 bit capability is of course adequate. I imagine I'll have > to right a device driver. > > ISA PCMCIA adapters are mondo pricey on eBay. Icarumba. Look around for a PC/104 to PCMCIA (16-bit) adapter board. Make sure you don't accidentally grab a PC/104-Plus to CardBus (32-bit) board though. PC/104 is more or less ISA, but a PC/104-Plus to CardBus adapter board would need a 32-bit PCI bus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC/104 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 15:53:32 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:53:32 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > A lot, granted. But that came from a time when Ma Bell was > prohibited from getting into the computer business. After the > consent decree and breakup, she went downhill fast. That, and the 3B series of computers kind of sucked... -- Will (feed me!) From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Sep 15 16:05:43 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:05:43 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> On 09/15/2012 03:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> thats so funny. I hope Ill eventually remembes who I was conversing >> with, or even when it was, but was told that phone companies should have >> been way ahead. After all a computer is just a bunch of switches (one of >> the best definitions of a computer imho, albeit informal, for those with >> a smattering of electronics knowledge). > > As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK in > WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO research > labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the telephone system > in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of switching systems. > > And how many computer debvelopments came from the Bell Telephone labs? > I'm surprised you'd even take that swing. For openers the most famous, the transistor. The most notable was K&R were employed by Bell Labs.. so Unix and all the useful utilities. Bell Labs like your GPO was the local experts on switches and all things switching and yes, they were indeed involved. What they learned went into their automated billing and switching systems. They were involved with relay computers and later electronic ones as well. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 15 16:33:52 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:33:52 -0600 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> References: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/15/2012 3:05 PM, allison wrote: > For openers the most famous, the transistor. > > The most notable was K&R were employed by Bell Labs.. so Unix and > all the useful utilities. > I thought most of the big labs, had too much politics to get things done. Both Unix* and the Transistor was just luck! > Bell Labs like your GPO was the local experts on switches and all things > switching and yes, they were indeed involved. What they learned went > into their automated billing and switching systems. They were > involved with relay computers and later electronic ones as well. > > > Allison Ben. *back on topic :) DEC equipment. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Sep 15 17:22:07 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:22:07 +0100 Subject: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? Message-ID: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> Recently I was talking with a couple of people in the Manchester area who like to collect classic computers. It occurred to me that there may be enough of us in the area to warrant organising a regular meeting to talk about what we are all up to. It would be a totally informal format, just a chance to talk to fellow enthusiasts, maybe get some ideas, or pass on experiences etc. We all lead busy lives, so my thought is to make it say once every two months, either at a pub in central Manchester, or perhaps at some location near an exit on the M60. Is anyone interested in this idea? Regards Rob From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Sep 15 17:28:21 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:28:21 -0700 Subject: Items for sale, Portland Or. area pickup for Sunday, Monday. Message-ID: <50550105.6080508@gorge.net> Hi, I have the follow equipment that can be picked up in Portland Or. (Aloha) Sunday afternoon till Monday evening. All gear works unless otherwise stated. $200 - HP 9000/300 with 68030 / 68881, monitor and HPIL keyboard. Includes 2 X one meg RAM PN 98257 and spare 68K card. $100 - Tandy Model 4, 2 drives, Video problems when second drive installed? Works otherwise - OBO $100 - Tektronix 4662 flatbed plotter, serial and GPIB. Joystick pots need cleaning, drifts slightly when jogged and released. $500 - Alpha Micro Mini LSI Card cage, Power supply, Front panel, CPU, 64 K RAM, TTY I/O option, 3'rd party I/O card, extender. Machine missing power cable from fuse to power supply - 9 Pin molex, no fans in fan cage, one ram chip de-lidded but part is available. Condition unknown, Worked in 1985 before fans stolen and power cable lost Best offer: Kaypro 2 - powers up, no software Sanyo MBC-1000, external floppy. Powers up, couldn't get it to boot with disks I have. Stuff I want to get rid of before the rains start - Must pick up in Goldendale Wa. Pallet of 12 Apple Macs - 68K and powerPC. keyboards, monitors, all-in-ones, - contact if interested, Contact off-list if interested. -jim From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Sep 15 17:47:31 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:47:31 +0100 Subject: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? In-Reply-To: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> References: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 15 September 2012 23:22, Rob Jarratt wrote: > We all lead busy lives, so my thought is to make it say once every two > months, either at a pub in central Manchester, or perhaps at some location > near an exit on the M60. > > Is anyone interested in this idea? I'm just off the M602/A57, so sounds good to me .. be nice to get out occasionally..! Rob From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Sep 15 17:54:46 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jimpdavis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:54:46 -0700 Subject: Items for sale, Portland Or. area pickup for Sunday, Monday. Correction... In-Reply-To: <50550105.6080508@gorge.net> References: <50550105.6080508@gorge.net> Message-ID: <50550736.1030605@gorge.net> Head Slapping Correction - The machine is an Computer Automation Alpha LSI > $500 - Computer Automation Alpha LSI Card cage, Power supply, Front > panel, CPU, 64 K RAM, TTY I/O option, 3'rd party I/O card, extender. > Machine missing power cable from fuse to power supply - 9 > Pin molex, no fans in fan cage, one ram chip de-lidded but part is > available. > Condition unknown, Worked in 1985 before fans stolen and > power cable lost From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 18:09:23 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 00:09:23 +0100 Subject: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1B95E3FA9FC749E7B3237DD754AE6844@G4UGMT41> Well that's three so far... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob > Sent: 15 September 2012 23:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? > > > On 15 September 2012 23:22, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > We all lead busy lives, so my thought is to make it say > once every two > > months, either at a pub in central Manchester, or perhaps at some > > location near an exit on the M60. > > > > Is anyone interested in this idea? > > I'm just off the M602/A57, so sounds good to me .. be nice to > get out occasionally..! > > Rob > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 18:29:49 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:29:49 -0700 Subject: Cipher "Quarterback" capstan diameter Message-ID: <50550F6D.2070901@gmail.com> Hey all -- Anyone know the appropriate diameter for the rubber capstan wheel in a Cipher Quarterback tape drive (model F420-90)? This is an old 20mb drive used in Sun-2/120 workstations. Someone's gone through the trouble of removing the sticky tar of the old wheel but I have no idea what to replace it with. Thanks as always, Josh From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Sep 15 19:04:38 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:04:38 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9FA1250E-C932-48E1-AFB9-DC74B470C500@mainecoon.com> On 15 Sep 2012, at 2:33 PM, ben wrote: > I thought most of the big labs, had too much politics to get things done. > Both Unix* and the Transistor was just luck! You haven't read much of the Bell System Journals then, have you? -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 19:14:15 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:14:15 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <9FA1250E-C932-48E1-AFB9-DC74B470C500@mainecoon.com> References: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> <9FA1250E-C932-48E1-AFB9-DC74B470C500@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > You haven't read much of the Bell System Journals then, have you? Bell Labs was an insanely intense political snakepit, from What the old timers I have known have said. -- Will From d235j.1 at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 19:27:11 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:27:11 -0400 Subject: ebay: Apollo 68030 motherboard? In-Reply-To: References: <1343357386.87821.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I hope the Apollo board came packaged better than the monochrome video card > I bought from the same guy. The MDA card came wrapped in a white plastic > garbage bag. It also appears to have been abused and has lots of > bent/shorted IC pins on the solder side of the board. Kinda makes me glad I > didn't get the Hercules MDA card he had too now that I've seen what this > board looks like. It seemed to have been packaged in a similar way, but otherwise appears in good shape... we'll see. Been too busy to play with it. I immediately stuffed it into a large antistatic bag I had handy, though. --Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 15 19:39:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:39:06 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> References: , <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5054BD3A.24041.4B38C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2012 at 17:05, allison wrote: > I'm surprised you'd even take that swing. > > For openers the most famous, the transistor. Well, the bipolar point-contact transistor, at any rate. Julius Lillenfeld had patented the FET in 1925. Apparently, Shockley wanted to patent the FET but was informed by the Bell legal beagles that that had already been done some 22 years earlier and might not be patentable. Which brings up a question. What constitutes the majority of transistors in use today--bipolar junction or field-effect? My money's on the FET simply because of the trillions present in microelectronics. And then there's the Lillenfeld invention of the electrolytic capacitor, yet most high-school texts give BB+S the credit for inventing the transistor and do not mention Lillenfeld. Bell Labs should also receive some credit for the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation (Penzias and Wilson worked for BL at the time of the discovery). Bell Labs has had a remarkable history of no fewer than 13 Nobel laureates (7 prizes), the last one being in 2009 to Boyle and Smith for CCDs. And I'm not counting Schanlow's work with MASERs while at Bell. Quite a remarkable organization in its heyday. --Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Sep 15 20:12:55 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 18:12:55 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> <9FA1250E-C932-48E1-AFB9-DC74B470C500@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <67B9F7DB-4FD8-4346-BA6C-61F23EF746D6@mainecoon.com> On 15 Sep 2012, at 5:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> You haven't read much of the Bell System Journals then, have you? > > Bell Labs was an insanely intense political snakepit, from What the > old timers I have known have said. I don't dispute that; I dispute that the politics prevented things from getting done. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 20:18:47 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:18:47 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <67B9F7DB-4FD8-4346-BA6C-61F23EF746D6@mainecoon.com> References: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> <5054F440.9010109@jetnet.ab.ca> <9FA1250E-C932-48E1-AFB9-DC74B470C500@mainecoon.com> <67B9F7DB-4FD8-4346-BA6C-61F23EF746D6@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: > I don't dispute that; I dispute that the politics prevented things from getting done. Right - from stories I have heard, the politics actually made things get done, with all the competition in the Lab. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 16 00:49:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 23:49:51 -0600 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054BD3A.24041.4B38C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> <5054BD3A.24041.4B38C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5055687F.6000607@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Bell Labs has had a remarkable history [...] Quite a remarkable > organization in its heyday. For anyone wanting to learn more about the history of Bell Labs, I highly recommend _The Idea Factory: Bell Labs and the Great Age of American Innovation_ by Jon Gertner. From julian at jnt.me.uk Sun Sep 16 01:19:10 2012 From: julian at jnt.me.uk (Julian Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 07:19:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1347776350.27532.YahooMailNeo@web87701.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: Well that's three so far... > >Dave Wade G4UGM >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > >Make that four... Julian. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun Sep 16 03:32:41 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:32:41 +0100 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: <4EE4954AF7054AB5B5001E2FB5585317@MailBox> from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 14, 12 08:22:45 am Message-ID: Yes I totally agree with your comments Sadly although I sold thousands of LA36's in the UK I don?t have one. I do have an LA75 and an LA50. Obviously LA36's, LA120's and LA180's are much larger animals and tend to be scrapped do to the storage space they need. That reminds me of a story. When I joined DEC I got the inevitable list of cars to choose from. In those days they were mostly Ford Cortinas. I duly chose one and added 'Estate' to the description. About a week later my new car arrived but not an estate version. So I asked the fleet manager what was the problem. She said an estate was not on the list. OK say's I, bring the car over to Ealing. She pulls up into the car park to see another Sales person and I carrying an LA36 in to the car park. We invited her to load the LA36 into the vehicle provided. She went a very bright pink, got into the car and drove off. When I arrived next day the keys for the top Ford estate model were waiting in reception. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 14 September 2012 20:17 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) > > Not a bad way to test but do remember that the head solenoids were designed > for pulse operation so do not power more one at a time and don't leave the > power on for too long. You will find you need quite a low voltaeg to get the pins to extend. Typoca;;y these ehads are runm from 24V or 36V supply rails i nthe printer, but a 5V bench supply will normally operate them,. The actch is, of course, the operate a lot more slowly (due to the inductace of the coils) on the lower votlage. That's why the higher voltage is sued in operation. YEs, they will over heat if left on too long. But you can certainly test a head in this way, and clean the exposed part of the pin without damaging it., Of coruse you are not going to leave the head unattended when doign this. You are likely to be hand-holding the head. You will notice if it's getting hot. Incidentally, if you ever have to reasseble the X-axis drive suystme of the HP7245 printer/plotter, it helps to be able to lock the drive pulley whenyou are widning the drive cabel round it. I have found that energising one winding of the drive stepper motor (again, only 5 or 6 volts) will do this, and the motor doesn't get hot in the time it takes ot put the thing together. -tony From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Sep 16 06:10:55 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:10:55 +0200 Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? In-Reply-To: <5053DB8E.9030105@neurotica.com> References: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> <5053DB8E.9030105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120916111055.GA2120@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/14/2012 04:52 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Hi, > > a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip > > that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the > > TMS320C20. > > > > I got that Chip to do something with it, not to display it somewhere. > > Maybe I can build a wirewrap board with it, but I want to program the > > firmware in C. > > Now I'm searching for an C Compiler that supports it, gcc does'nt > > unfortunately, there is some support for the TMS320C3x and 320C4x > > Processors which are floating point variants, the C20 is a Integer > > processor w/o fp. > > I know that there must be at least a TI C Cross-Compiler has existed > > for Dos, Solaris and other OS. > > Does GCC's related target support handle the -msoft-float option? If > it does, that might work, generating integer-only instructions. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA I don't know how far the opcodes between that processors are compatible, and I'm not really a gcc guru Dave. Ok, I could look at it, but in the moment I don't know much of the TI DSP architecture.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Sep 16 06:12:25 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:12:25 +0200 Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? In-Reply-To: <1347670482.79599.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> <1347670482.79599.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120916111225.GB2120@beast.freibergnet.de> Dave wrote: > I remember programming a C20 or C25 back in 1988 or so, using a pretty mediocre TI compiler.? I recall having to look at the output not so much for buggy assembly output, but to identify any really egregiously inefficient code.? To my recollection, those chips were pretty easy to program in assembler, and that was pretty much necessary for any really timing critical code.??? (On the plus side, there was a great in-circuit emulator, and I used the lovable BRIEF editor, by underware) > > I think the 320C20 is the same underlying architecture as the 320C2xx series, and may be supported by some older, possibly free, versions of the TI development environment, Code Composer. > > Good luck! > > Dave ..possible free.. A look to the TI Website doesn't even list such old versions that mentions 320c2x. I'll try somethingwith 320C2XX support as you suggested. Thanks, Holm > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Holm Tiffe > >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 3:52 PM > >Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? > > > >Hi, > >a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip > >that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the > >TMS320C20. > > > >I got that Chip to do something with it, not to display it somewhere. > >Maybe I can build a wirewrap board with it, but I want to program the > >firmware in C. > >Now I'm searching for an C Compiler that supports it, gcc does'nt > >unfortunately, there is some support for the TMS320C3x and 320C4x > >Processors which are floating point variants, the C20 is a Integer > >processor w/o fp. > >I know that there must be at least a TI C Cross-Compiler has existed > >for Dos, Solaris and other OS. > > > >Has someone a usable copy from such a thing? > > > >Kind Regards, > > > >Holm > > > >PS: this is for notalgia purposes only... > > > >-- > >? ? ? Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > >? ? Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > >? www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > > > > > -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Sep 16 11:05:40 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:05:40 -0400 Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? In-Reply-To: <20120916111225.GB2120@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20120914205222.GA71848@beast.freibergnet.de> <1347670482.79599.YahooMailNeo@web163004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120916111225.GB2120@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <5055F8D4.2010204@telegraphics.com.au> On 16/09/12 7:12 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Dave wrote: > >> I remember programming a C20 or C25 back in 1988 or so, using a pretty mediocre TI compiler. I recall having to look at the output not so much for buggy assembly output, but to identify any really egregiously inefficient code. To my recollection, those chips were pretty easy to program in assembler, and that was pretty much necessary for any really timing critical code. (On the plus side, there was a great in-circuit emulator, and I used the lovable BRIEF editor, by underware) >> >> I think the 320C20 is the same underlying architecture as the 320C2xx series, and may be supported by some older, possibly free, versions of the TI development environment, Code Composer. >> >> Good luck! >> >> Dave > > ..possible free.. A look to the TI Website doesn't even list such old > versions that mentions 320c2x. I'll try somethingwith 320C2XX support as > you suggested. > > Thanks, > > Holm >> >> >> >> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Holm Tiffe >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 3:52 PM >>> Subject: TMS320C20 C-compiler? >>> >>> Hi, >>> a friend from our german Robotron comuter Forum gave me an U320C20 Chip >>> that was made in the former GDR bei ZMD Dresden. It is a copy of the >>> TMS320C20. >>> I wonder if that's similar to the embedded TI DSP on a Truevision NuVista graphics card for Macintosh NuBus (one of the first cards to support Colour QuickDraw from 1-32 bits per pixel). There was a development kit for Mac cross-dev on the DSP but I never was able to obtain it. (I still have the card.) --Toby From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 16 11:43:49 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:43:49 +0100 Subject: Restoring an ASR33 Teletype Message-ID: <016901cd942a$74bf6510$5e3e2f30$@ntlworld.com> I have managed to obtain an ASR33 Teletype and have started taking a look at it. I have found various manuals and I am starting to go through them. I have partially dismantled it to clean it up a bit. The typing unit seems to be in fairly good condition, but the paper tape punch looks like it needs work. I'd like to check if the machine is basically healthy and just in need of lubrication or if it needs to be completely stripped down (which is a daunting prospect), are there some simple tests I can do on it without applying power? Thanks Rob From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 12:00:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:00:10 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 15 September 2012 20:54, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Sep 2012 at 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > >> As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK >> in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO >> research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the >> telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of >> switching systems. > > Maybe, but in the 70s when I visited, telephones in Britain were a > nightmare compared to their US counterparts--particularly pay > telephones. Really? My fairly brief experience with American phones has been the precise reverse. Yes, we pay for local calls, but this means we pay a LOT less for long-distance. (Now with internet telephony & a thousand discount schemes, companies, phonecards and so on, this is all going away anyway.) We had one national phone company (and one rebel town in the far north with its own). No complex tariffs, no high charges for calls from one telco to another, etc. The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next /in the same country./ You guys even pay to /receive/ text messages! It looks like pathetic, chaotic madness from over here. It's the only reason Blackberry took off with its wretched glorified pagers; that the US phone system was so broken, random and unreliable that mobile phones didn't take off. When the whole rest of the planet was going over to cellphones, out of North America we got a souped-up two-way pager that gradually added phone functionality on. Complete insanity. > And doesn't England still have coin-op residential > electrical service? Not for 30 odd years now, no. By the 1990s, maybe some elderly people who didn't want their equipment changed - but that was 20y ago. Low-price rental accommodation sometimes has "power keys", where you top up an encrypted electronic key in a corner shop and it authorises your meter. This is still way better than coins, though. No emptying. > When I heard this referred to on an old > "Steptoe and Son" broadcast, it seemed very backward to me (you > apparently needed a lot of 1s coins to keep out of the dark). The shilling went out before I could talk. I do not remember pounds, shillings and pence at all. I am 44. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 12:08:38 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:08:38 +0100 Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 15 September 2012 21:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 15 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> anything Bell Labs/AT & T was doing. Perhaps not w/slugs though. > > When my cousin (David Ungar) went to teach at Stanford (~20 years ago), he > told me that there was a group there reverse engineering banana slugs. > so that they can build artificial ones? That seems very unlikely to me. Artificial-life research is nowhere near the level of building individual bacterial cells yet, let alone eukaryote cells - i.e., ones with a nucleus and mitochondria. You're asking for a chainsaw from someone who hasn't yet moved from a fragment of flint to a shaped arrowhead. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 16 12:20:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120916101914.J92680@shell.lmi.net> > > When my cousin (David Ungar) went to teach at Stanford (~20 years ago), he > > told me that there was a group there reverse engineering banana slugs. > > so that they can build artificial ones? On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > That seems very unlikely to me. Artificial-life research is nowhere > near the level of building individual bacterial cells yet, let alone > eukaryote cells - i.e., ones with a nucleus and mitochondria. > You're asking for a chainsaw from someone who hasn't yet moved from a > fragment of flint to a shaped arrowhead. He expected me to understand that they were trying to simulate the thought processes, not build more of them. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 12:23:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:23:54 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50560B2A.3020300@neurotica.com> On 09/16/2012 01:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas > the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and > state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next > /in the same country./ > > You guys even pay to /receive/ text messages! > > It looks like pathetic, chaotic madness from over here. > > It's the only reason Blackberry took off with its wretched glorified > pagers; that the US phone system was so broken, random and unreliable > that mobile phones didn't take off. When the whole rest of the planet > was going over to cellphones, out of North America we got a souped-up > two-way pager that gradually added phone functionality on. > > Complete insanity. Yes. But remember, in the case of the Blackberry, it's more of a status symbol than anything else; there have always been better communication devices. (or at least it "was" a status symbol...now it's more of an "oh, how quaint, one of the six remaining people with a Blackberry" symbol) As far as the insanity, and paying to receive text messages...American companies artificially create an atmosphere in which the customers view them as figures of authority, so they will be more obedient when it comes to purchasing things. Very rarely will an American question ANYTHING about a product or service, instead preferring to just pay whatever is demanded, and accept whatever they get in return. Combine that with the general attitude that "cheaper is better, even when it isn't", and you begin to see why utter trash like Wal*Mart (the McDonald's of retail) and McDonald's (the Wal*Mart of food) becomes so pervasive here...and craziness like paying to receive text messages. In the end, we truly deserve the poor products and services that we get, because the vast VAST majority of us just aren't smart enough to demand more. Its really quite pathetic, and embarrassing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 12:25:08 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:25:08 +0100 Subject: Slugs (Was: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <20120916101914.J92680@shell.lmi.net> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347738042.45183.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120915125545.H60729@shell.lmi.net> <20120916101914.J92680@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 16 September 2012 18:20, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > When my cousin (David Ungar) went to teach at Stanford (~20 years ago), he >> > told me that there was a group there reverse engineering banana slugs. >> > so that they can build artificial ones? > On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> That seems very unlikely to me. Artificial-life research is nowhere >> near the level of building individual bacterial cells yet, let alone >> eukaryote cells - i.e., ones with a nucleus and mitochondria. >> You're asking for a chainsaw from someone who hasn't yet moved from a >> fragment of flint to a shaped arrowhead. > > He expected me to understand that they were trying to simulate the thought > processes, not build more of them. Ohhhhh right! Now I am with you. Yes, actually, that seems quite doable. Not trivial 20y ago and not that easy even now, mind you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 12:42:43 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:42:43 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <50560B2A.3020300@neurotica.com> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> <50560B2A.3020300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 16 September 2012 18:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/16/2012 01:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas >> the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and >> state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next >> /in the same country./ >> >> You guys even pay to /receive/ text messages! >> >> It looks like pathetic, chaotic madness from over here. >> >> It's the only reason Blackberry took off with its wretched glorified >> pagers; that the US phone system was so broken, random and unreliable >> that mobile phones didn't take off. When the whole rest of the planet >> was going over to cellphones, out of North America we got a souped-up >> two-way pager that gradually added phone functionality on. >> >> Complete insanity. > > Yes. But remember, in the case of the Blackberry, it's more of a > status symbol than anything else; there have always been better > communication devices. (or at least it "was" a status symbol...now it's > more of an "oh, how quaint, one of the six remaining people with a > Blackberry" symbol) I don't know about that. My perception, as a Londoner who uses public transport heavily, I see a /lot/ of Blackberries even today. Until about 4-5y ago, they were the SuitPhone. You pretty much only found them clamped in the pallid pasty paws of workers in the corporate machine, hooked into the enterprise email backbone, monitored and timed and measured, so that the slaves were never free of their overlords. The new iPhone - pre-apps and pre-3G - did great and became the non-techie's phone of choice. RIM responded with a big expensive ad campaign about the multimedia and games abilities of the Blackberry, and as a result sold millions of the things to teens. This is fading now - iPhone is winning - but for 3-4y the changes are that if the phone user had acne, bad hair and bad clothes, the piece of electronics they'd be hunched over was a Blackberry. The hardcore high-volume texters still favour them. They're also /very/ cheap now, I think. > As far as the insanity, and paying to receive text messages...American > companies artificially create an atmosphere in which the customers view > them as figures of authority, so they will be more obedient when it > comes to purchasing things. Very rarely will an American question > ANYTHING about a product or service, instead preferring to just pay > whatever is demanded, and accept whatever they get in return. Combine > that with the general attitude that "cheaper is better, even when it > isn't", and you begin to see why utter trash like Wal*Mart (the > McDonald's of retail) and McDonald's (the Wal*Mart of food) becomes so > pervasive here...and craziness like paying to receive text messages. > > In the end, we truly deserve the poor products and services that we > get, because the vast VAST majority of us just aren't smart enough to > demand more. Its really quite pathetic, and embarrassing. I would not dare to disagree. I did find a recent Reddit thread about this amusing. An American poster was complaining about mobile costs. A Brit posted "TIL Americans pay to receive texts". (Today I Learned.) The Europeans were all amused, in a horrified but condescending sort of way. The Americans were astounded. They had no idea that only they paid to receive as well as send. It was, overall, hilarious. This is not the original article but a response to it, I think: http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/hf0g3/til_that_most_of_the_worlds_cell_phone_companies/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 12:50:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:50:36 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> <50560B2A.3020300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5056116C.8070802@neurotica.com> On 09/16/2012 01:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 16 September 2012 18:23, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 09/16/2012 01:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas >>> the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and >>> state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next >>> /in the same country./ >>> >>> You guys even pay to /receive/ text messages! >>> >>> It looks like pathetic, chaotic madness from over here. >>> >>> It's the only reason Blackberry took off with its wretched glorified >>> pagers; that the US phone system was so broken, random and unreliable >>> that mobile phones didn't take off. When the whole rest of the planet >>> was going over to cellphones, out of North America we got a souped-up >>> two-way pager that gradually added phone functionality on. >>> >>> Complete insanity. >> >> Yes. But remember, in the case of the Blackberry, it's more of a >> status symbol than anything else; there have always been better >> communication devices. (or at least it "was" a status symbol...now it's >> more of an "oh, how quaint, one of the six remaining people with a >> Blackberry" symbol) > > I don't know about that. My perception, as a Londoner who uses public > transport heavily, I see a /lot/ of Blackberries even today. Not so much here. I used to know a lot of Blackberry users; they've all moved on to iPhones and Android devices, except for one diehard...You know who you are. ;) > Until about 4-5y ago, they were the SuitPhone. You pretty much only > found them clamped in the pallid pasty paws of workers in the > corporate machine, hooked into the enterprise email backbone, > monitored and timed and measured, so that the slaves were never free > of their overlords. > > The new iPhone - pre-apps and pre-3G - did great and became the > non-techie's phone of choice. > > RIM responded with a big expensive ad campaign about the multimedia > and games abilities of the Blackberry, and as a result sold millions > of the things to teens. This is fading now - iPhone is winning - but > for 3-4y the changes are that if the phone user had acne, bad hair and > bad clothes, the piece of electronics they'd be hunched over was a > Blackberry. It was a bit different here. They were the near-exclusive domain of suits for a long time, and the primary desire was to be seen holding one rather than actually using it. > The hardcore high-volume texters still favour them. They're also > /very/ cheap now, I think. They're cheap for a reason...RIM has been circling the drain for awhile now. ;) >> As far as the insanity, and paying to receive text messages...American >> companies artificially create an atmosphere in which the customers view >> them as figures of authority, so they will be more obedient when it >> comes to purchasing things. Very rarely will an American question >> ANYTHING about a product or service, instead preferring to just pay >> whatever is demanded, and accept whatever they get in return. Combine >> that with the general attitude that "cheaper is better, even when it >> isn't", and you begin to see why utter trash like Wal*Mart (the >> McDonald's of retail) and McDonald's (the Wal*Mart of food) becomes so >> pervasive here...and craziness like paying to receive text messages. >> >> In the end, we truly deserve the poor products and services that we >> get, because the vast VAST majority of us just aren't smart enough to >> demand more. Its really quite pathetic, and embarrassing. > > I would not dare to disagree. > > I did find a recent Reddit thread about this amusing. > > An American poster was complaining about mobile costs. > > A Brit posted "TIL Americans pay to receive texts". (Today I Learned.) > > The Europeans were all amused, in a horrified but condescending sort of way. > > The Americans were astounded. They had no idea that only they paid to > receive as well as send. > > It was, overall, hilarious. > > This is not the original article but a response to it, I think: > http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/hf0g3/til_that_most_of_the_worlds_cell_phone_companies/ No doubt. And...embarrassing. It's not my place to apologize to the world for the stupid antics of my country, but sometimes I really feel like I should. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 13:03:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:03:48 -0300 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> <50560B2A.3020300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A97222FD57041B8A51E2AA9B11FF74D@tababook> > Yes. But remember, in the case of the Blackberry, it's more of a > status symbol than anything else; there have always been better > communication devices. (or at least it "was" a status symbol...now it's > more of an "oh, how quaint, one of the six remaining people with a > Blackberry" symbol) Interesting...In Brazil, the shittyberry is THE corporate telephone. Almost everyone has a nextel line, and most of them uses blackberries. I hate this shitty phone. It is WORSE than my iPhone 3GS - and I don't have that much consideration for it either. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 16 13:16:55 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:16:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas > the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and > state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next > /in the same country./ Incorrect. First, GSM is one set of standards (mostly; telco standards are a special kind of hell), but it operates on no less than 14 frequency bands: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands Good luck finding a phone that supports all of them! But wait, there's 3G now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands And let's not forget LTE, which changes the radio interface _again_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_(telecommunication) But that's just the GSM family! Let's not forget that Japan and the nordic countries did their own thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Handy-phone_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Mobile_Telephone And then of course, some 'American' network technologies had major deployments outside the USA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Digital_Enhanced_Network http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-95 Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 13:32:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:32:11 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <5055B8BB.10062.A36AD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2012 at 18:00, Liam Proven wrote: > Really? My fairly brief experience with American phones has been the > precise reverse. Yes, we pay for local calls, but this means we pay a > LOT less for long-distance. (Now with internet telephony & a thousand > discount schemes, companies, phonecards and so on, this is all going > away anyway.) There *is* the matter of scale. My state, for instance, is larger than the entire UK in terms of land area and far more varied in terms of geography and *much* lower in population density. It's far from being the largest state in the union. There are many areas of this country that are classifed as "frontier" (<6 people per square mile). But I'll agree with you on the mobile phone mess. Wierd licensing, odd terms of service and scams abound. This is the legacy of our "free market" thinkers--put everything up for sale with minimum regulation and let the devil take the hindmost. Margaret Thatcher would be proud. I sometimes get no signal indication, just on my daily walks out my front door. I have to go outside of the house and walk down my driveway to make a reliable call on mobile. On the other hand, the wired service we inherited from the Bell conglomerate is utterly reliable--and the telcos are trying to figure out a way to get rid of them, as mobile is far more profitable. > The shilling went out before I could talk. I do not remember pounds, > shillings and pence at all. I am 44. I do--and still have a few. I also recall seeing monochrome 405-line TV broadcasts in the UK and thought they were the most flickery awful things I'd ever seen. But your statement about coin-op residential electric meters in the UK simply isn't true: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?285552-Old- Coin-Electric-Meter --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 16 13:45:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5055B8BB.10062.A36AD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com>, <5055B8BB.10062.A36AD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50561E57.8000304@neurotica.com> On 09/16/2012 02:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But I'll agree with you on the mobile phone mess. Wierd licensing, > odd terms of service and scams abound. This is the legacy of our > "free market" thinkers--put everything up for sale with minimum > regulation and let the devil take the hindmost. Margaret Thatcher > would be proud. If "take the hindmost" means "do you in the pooper", well, yes. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 13:59:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 19:59:59 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 16 September 2012 19:16, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >> The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas >> the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and >> state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next >> /in the same country./ > > > Incorrect. First, GSM is one set of standards (mostly; telco standards are a > special kind of hell), but it operates on no less than 14 frequency bands: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands > > Good luck finding a phone that supports all of them! I did in 1999 or so, actually. Well, it was tri-band and worked everywhere I've ever even heard of. Motorola Timeport 7089, I think. Oddly, only the German Wikipedia has a page on it, but you can see one here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-band_device I sold one last month, as a matter of fact. Only fetched about ?3-?4, but that's pretty good for a 13y old phone! I later replaced it with a quad-band phone, I think. > But wait, there's 3G > now: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands > > And let's not forget LTE, which changes the radio interface _again_: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTE_(telecommunication) Yuh-huh. I do actually know a little bit about this stuff; Q.v. http://www.reghardware.com/2011/05/24/wtf_is_4g/ > But that's just the GSM family! Let's not forget that Japan and the nordic > countries did their own thing: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Handy-phone_System > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Mobile_Telephone NMT was in some ways an ancestor of GSM, was it not? I forget the details now... > And then of course, some 'American' network technologies had major > deployments outside the USA: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Digital_Enhanced_Network > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IS-95 Yes, true, but fortunately, they did not do very well and have now pretty much all died out. Japan always has had a fondness for weird proprietary stuff. AIUI they've come round now on phone standards, though, no? Something I learned relatively recently about American mobiles - that the old, pre-GSM phones didn't have SIM cards? You couldn't move your phone from one network to another? Is that correct? That *amazed* me. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Sep 16 14:27:47 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:27:47 +0200 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120916192747.GA27565@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 06:00:10PM +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas > the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and > state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next > /in the same country./ > > You guys even pay to /receive/ text messages! And pay to receive calls. That came as a rude surprise to me a few years ago when I travelled to the US on business. Got me a local pay-as-you-go phone and told the wife to call me on that one - would be cheaper than her calling me on my normal mobile where I would pay the roaming charges. Little was I aware of the greed of the american telco ... turns out that they weren't happy with the money they were getting from the caller, they also charged me something like $2/min or so for the incoming international call. Which I wasn't used to - in europe (well, .de and .ch definitely, but I guess the rest is not too dissimiliar on that one ) you only pay for incoming calls if you're doing international roaming. At point which I went "fine, if you're _that_ greedy, you are not going to see another cent" and installed Skype. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Sep 16 14:48:59 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:48:59 +0200 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120916194859.GB27565@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 06:16:55PM +0000, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > > >The whole rest of the world has one mobile phone system, GSM, whereas > >the USA has its own weird one and competing telcos in every city and > >state meant that phones could not be used from one place to the next > >/in the same country./ > > Incorrect. First, GSM is one set of standards (mostly; telco > standards are a special kind of hell), but it operates on no less > than 14 frequency bands: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_frequency_bands Frequency band allocation is not identical the world over, surprise, surprise. That being the case, the only way to deal with it is to allocate multiple frequency bands depending on location. > Good luck finding a phone that supports all of them! Never had a problem. My GSM phones in the last 10+ years all have been multiband phones and they worked just fine in Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Portugal, Spain and in the US (although coverage in the US leaves a bit to be desired). And multi-band has been standard for GSM phones for quite a few years now - only rock bottom throw-away phones didn't have it and by now you can get even those with multiband GSM. > But wait,there's 3G now: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands 3G phone aquired in .ch for use in .ch and .de, fed it a US SIM card and got 3G service in the US just fine. Bit pricey, but hey, US telcos, 'nuf said. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 12:00:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:00:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 15, 12 12:54:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 15 Sep 2012 at 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK > > in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO > > research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the > > telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of > > switching systems. > > Maybe, but in the 70s when I visited, telephones in Britain were a > nightmare compared to their US counterparts--particularly pay In the 1979s. the UK telephoens were still essentially a government monopoly. Everything had to be rentyed from the GPO, you couldn't do any mdoifications yourself [1]. Pkug-in telephones were very rare, most werre hardwired. If you are interested in finding out more about the wiring of subscriber equipment in the UK -- telephone schemantic,s how extensions were wired [2], etc, then do a goodle search for N diagram. And enjoy... [1] That's not to say it didn't occur :-) [2] Multiple phones opn a line were a bit odd. The speech circuitry was wired in paralel, the ringers (bells) in series. Evey extension scheme had a 'Plan' number -- Plan 4 is the one for plug-in telephones. Note that there are different versiosn of Plan 4 depending on whethr you rented one telephoen or morte than one. I guess if you decided ot rent a second telephoen on Paln 4, an engineer had ot come out and rewire all the sockets and the existing telephone. You were saying... :-) On the other hand, the Planphones (telephoens with swithcing to extensions, facilities to call exten sions, etc) are rather fun. > telephones. And doesn't England still have coin-op residential > electrical service? When I heard this referred to on an old Yes and no. It is not common, virtually everyone has a normal watt-hour meter that is read 4 times a year (or should be) and gets a bill shortly after. However, if the electricity company thinks you're a 'bad risk' and are likely to not pay the bill, they can install a prepaymetn meter. In the old days, that was something you put coilns in (often shillings, not pennies), nowadays it more likely you put money on a smartcard or similar at a local shop and use that to add credit ot the meter. That way the meter iteslf never contains coins, and they don't have to send soembody round to empty it (such people were attecked for the money they carried, and often scuh meters were used in less 'desirable' areas...) I can see why a scrap dealer would be likely to be judged a 'bad risk'... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 12:29:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:29:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 16, 12 09:32:41 am Message-ID: > Sadly although I sold thousands of LA36's in the UK I don't have one. > I do have an LA75 and an LA50. I think i have an LA50 somewhere. I certainly heve a couple of LA100s [1] and an LA324 [2] [1[ I do like the 'nodding printhead' in this unit. The printhead is mouted o na solenoid mechanism that moves the business end by havle a dot pitch vertically. That means you can get the equivelent of an 18 pin prinehed in 2 passes. [2] This is a more recent 24 pin unit with 3 microprocessors inside. I beleive it can taek a colour ribbon, but Iv'e never got one for it. This is also the only thing I own with an MMJ connector (!). > > Obviously LA36's, LA120's and LA180's are much larger animals and tend to be The LA110 is a lot smalelr than the LA36. The LA36 has a lot of electroncis in the stand, so it can't be turned int oa tabletop unit. The LA100 is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 12:05:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:05:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: <5054EDA7.4090106@verizon.net> from "allison" at Sep 15, 12 05:05:43 pm Message-ID: > > And how many computer debvelopments came from the Bell Telephone labs? > > > > I'm surprised you'd even take that swing. My apologies. I didn't word it clearly, and you have, unfortuantely misinterpretted it. I was not claiming that Bell Labs did nothing, and I certainly wasn;'t claiming the UK GPO did mroe than Bell Labs. I was simply giving that as anotehr example of a telephoen comany that did significant -- very significant -- computer work. Off the top of my head, I can think of the transistor (point contact bipolar, and IIRC they did the foundation work fo the FET), unix (of course), a lot of coding therory (Shannon et al), I beleive they did some work on liquid crystals. And that's without looking anythign up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 12:38:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:38:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Restoring an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: <016901cd942a$74bf6510$5e3e2f30$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Sep 16, 12 05:43:49 pm Message-ID: > > I have managed to obtain an ASR33 Teletype and have started taking a look at > it. I have found various manuals and I am starting to go through them. > > I have partially dismantled it to clean it up a bit. The typing unit seems > to be in fairly good condition, but the paper tape punch looks like it needs > work. When I did my first Mdoel 33 (an ASR, in a Data Dynamics 390 cabinet), I compleely stripped it, cleaned very part, and reassembled it. It didn;t work the fiurst tiem, I'd mies-assembled the linkage that auppresses printing on control characeters. On the otehr hand my excuse is that I didn't have the manauals, and was doing everythign by intuition... > > I'd like to check if the machine is basically healthy and just in need of > lubrication or if it needs to be completely stripped down (which is a > daunting prospect), are there some simple tests I can do on it without > applying power? I wouldn;t even turn it over by hand without lubricating it. Perhaps I am over-cautious, but I'd rather not add wear to parts if I can avoid it. I would dismantle it at least partically. That is remveo the carriage, motor and trasmit shaft at least. Clean all the parts you can, then go over the lubrication points. Then turn the machine by ahnd and check everythign seems free and works correctly. Only then apply power. Note that the clutches will not latch up propermy if run and hand-turning speed. Unless you latch them up byy hand or trip them immediately after applying power so that they then latch up properly, you will burn the cluch shoes. As for the puch, take care if you strip this down. I think it's best to keep parts in the origianl order. Yes, the levers are all the same, but like the parts of a car engine, the y'wear into each otehr amd it's best to keep them in sets. Keep the punch pins in the same holes of the die block. Follow the instructions in the manual if you have it. I didn't ahve the manaual nad removed an obvious screw early on. Unfortuantely this releeased the main pivod with the reult that the levers (and IIRC pins) becaame airborne. Don't ask... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 12:42:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:42:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Sep 16, 12 06:00:10 pm Message-ID: > The shilling went out before I could talk. I do not remember pounds, > shillings and pence at all. I am 44. The old shilling coins same size and vlaue as the 5p coins tht replaced them were sitll in use until quite recently (ditto tneh florin and 10p). I am very suprised you'd not leasrtn to talk by then :-). More seirouly, I rememebr pounds/shiilings/pence and the decimalisation -- just. I am only one year older than you. SOmewhere I have an electically pwoered mechancial desk calcualtor that works i pounds/shillings/pence (although that feature has been disabled by a previous orner, I intend to sort it ot). -tony From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Sep 16 16:08:23 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 22:08:23 +0100 Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? Message-ID: Oh I hate snipers... However, somebody is having a laugh with me ... over the last few months there's been a "Preview data systems" custom-branded Tandata TD1616 (a home viewdata terminal) appear three times now, and everytime I've been outbid. At around ?6, ?12 and ?21. The first two times are definitely the same item, the last one looks like it could be, cleaned up a little. I've not got one of these branded ones, so increased my max each time, and still keep getting sniped! Has there been a sudden re-resurgence of interest in all things viewdata? Until recently, I'd win similar items unopposed at opening bid, even 99p.. Have I succeeded in getting people interested in this obsolete form of online system again? (I guess that would be good if it were true..) -- Rob www.viewdata.org.uk From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Sep 16 16:14:16 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:14:16 -0400 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? Message-ID: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> I have a Sequent SE20 with Dynix installed. I also have the terminal to go with it. It use to boot but I didn't have the password. Any interst for $150 before I part it out. Located in New Baltimore, MI. 48047 or I can make it available in Port Huron, MI. 48060 Rob Quick pic at : http://www.borsuk.info/ebay/sequent.jpg Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 16:34:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:34:30 -0300 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone References: Message-ID: <58E919889AD74351945D340EB815C67F@tababook> > Yes and no. It is not common, virtually everyone has a normal watt-hour > meter that is read 4 times a year (or should be) and gets a bill shortly > after. 4 times a year?! :oO In Brazil watt-hour meters are read every month :oo and we have one bill per service, per month (one for telephone, one for cellular, one for water, one for energy, etc) From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Sep 16 17:35:47 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:35:47 -0400 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The shilling had a good run, it was the last vestige of the sestertius - a roman denomination. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-09-16, at 1:00 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> > > The shilling went out before I could talk. I do not remember pounds, > shillings and pence at all. I am 44. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 17:37:35 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:37:35 -0700 Subject: Cipher "Quarterback" capstan diameter In-Reply-To: <50550F6D.2070901@gmail.com> References: <50550F6D.2070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505654AF.8070900@gmail.com> Resending this since this seems to have disappeared into the ether. This of course guarantees that two copies will shortly be posted... On 9/15/2012 4:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Anyone know the appropriate diameter for the rubber capstan wheel in a > Cipher Quarterback tape drive (model F420-90)? This is an old 20mb > drive used in Sun-2/120 workstations. Someone's gone through the > trouble of removing the sticky tar of the old wheel but I have no idea > what to replace it with. > > Thanks as always, > Josh From rickb at bensene.com Sun Sep 16 17:54:31 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:54:31 -0700 Subject: Selenar Graphics II LA-36 Message-ID: I have powered up the LA36 with the Selenar Graphics board in it, and from the information kindly obtained by list members (Byte Magazine article about the Selenar Graphics II), I have been able to verify that the unit indeed works. The graphics mode works, and all of the other features documented in the Byte article seem to function properly. The issue that I've found is that only 5 of the 7 print pins are working. Numbered with the top pin as number 1, it is the 3rd and 6th pins that are either not firing at all, or are jammed such that they can't come forward enough to make an impression. I can't find a service manual for this unit online anywhere, so I'm wondering what the best approach to diagnosis would be. I do have schematics, but since the unit has a Selenar Graphics II logic board, I'm not sure how well the schematics will help. Since the Selenar board replaces the stock logic board, I can safely assume that it retains the pinouts for the connectors that go from it to the power board that has the drivers for the solenoids in the printhead. So, I can probably scope out the drivers to see if they are firing on pin 3 and 6 when printing characters that require those dots, which I will do when I have time, but I'm wondering the next step would be if I find that there are firing pulses coming out of the pin drivers for pin 3 and pin 6. Obviously, if I find that the pulses aren't being generated, then I have to dig into the solenoid drivers for these pins and figure out what has failed and fix it. If I find that the solenoid drivers are OK, then what should be done next? Would it be to remove the printhead and do what Tony suggested, which would be to use a bench power supply (I have a good Tektronix bench supply does truly does deliver 0.00V) to try to fire the solenoids to see if they are gummed up? If so, how do I go about removing the printhead to do this? Just from looking at things, it looks like I would have to do a lot of disassembly to get the printhead out of there. Does the printhead come off separately from the carriage that it rides on, or do I have to remove the whole carriage assembly? Any guidance would be most appreciated. Thanks, Rick Bensene From ats at offog.org Sun Sep 16 19:08:56 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 01:08:56 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: (Liam Proven's message of "Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:00:10 +0100") References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Liam Proven writes: >> And doesn't England still have coin-op residential electrical >> service? > Not for 30 odd years now, no. By the 1990s, maybe some elderly people > who didn't want their equipment changed - but that was 20y ago. I rented a flat on Worthing seafront for a few months in 2001, which was equipped with a coin-op meter when I moved in. (Not for very long; the electricity company were more than happy to replace it.) I'd be surprised if there weren't still a few of them to be found in holiday cottages and similar. The modern equivalent is the prepayment meter -- which has an electronic "key" that appropriately-equipped shops can put credit onto. I lived in a rented house with that system for a couple of years. It's not an improvement on the coin meter: it's unreliable (ours broke twice, leaving us without electricity, and it's easy for a housemate to take the key to recharge and then forget about it), and it's much harder to find a shop with a key-recharging machine at 2AM than it is to find a ?1 coin. Both systems also ludicrously overcharge you for electricity compared to having a proper meter, of course... -- Adam Sampson From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 16 20:20:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:20:21 -0700 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <1347680402.34427.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, (Liam Proven's message of "Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:00:10 +0100"), Message-ID: <50561865.19026.21A260D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2012 at 1:08, Adam Sampson wrote: > Both systems also ludicrously overcharge you for electricity compared > to having a proper meter, of course... The November, 2010 post I linked to made reference to a single household spending ?9 per day using their coin-op meter. They suspected that the landlord was skimming the take from the meter. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Sep 16 20:42:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 20:42:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Rob wrote: > Oh I hate snipers... > > However, somebody is having a laugh with me ... over the last few months > there's been a "Preview data systems" custom-branded Tandata TD1616 (a > home viewdata terminal) appear three times now, and everytime I've been > outbid. At around ?6, ?12 and ?21. The first two times are definitely > the same item, the last one looks like it could be, cleaned up a little. > I've not got one of these branded ones, so increased my max each time, > and still keep getting sniped! > > Has there been a sudden re-resurgence of interest in all things > viewdata? Until recently, I'd win similar items unopposed at opening > bid, even 99p.. Have I succeeded in getting people interested in this > obsolete form of online system again? (I guess that would be good if it > were true..) Your bid strategy just isn't going to work for in-demand items. Bid once, bid late, bid your max. From barythrin at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 21:38:05 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 02:38:05 +0000 Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? Message-ID: <1692385098-1347849486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1735235191-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Better yet bid *their* max. That's really the winning factor, right? J/k Actually I had similar lack of luck trying to find Microsoft Adventure. Lost I think 3 of them to the same anonymous bidder. If you're there shoot me a note ;-) I know ya don't need all uvem. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Sep 16 21:40:11 2012 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 22:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB ATT Picturephones or Stromberg Carson VISTAPHONE Message-ID: WTB ATT Picture phones or Stromberg Carson VISTAPHONE reply off list to _couryhouse at aol.com_ (mailto:couryhouse at aol.com) and cc _info at smecc.org_ (mailto:info at smecc.org) Thanks Ed! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Sep 16 22:31:29 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 23:31:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Paper for Decwriter References: Message-ID: <2A46ED5A-3B19-4D6B-A1E3-9DE022FC531F@colourfull.com> Hi All, Please contact Mike directly at mta at umich.edu. He was nice enough to offer it to me but I have several stacks already. I think there's a couple of people on the list who get out to the Ann Arbor, MI. area. Thanks Rob Begin forwarded message: > From: Mike Alexander > Date: September 15, 2012 7:14:03 PM EDT > To: Robert Borsuk > Subject: Paper for Decwriter > > I found a large stack of fanfold paper suitable for use in the Decwriter you got from me. It's normal 1403 fanfold paper that has been printed on one side. There are several hundred sheets in one continuous fanfold which I intendedto use in the Decwriter by printing on the reverse side. If you will be in Ann Arbor anytime soon and want it you can have it, otherwise I'll recycle it. I'll be around next week and then unavailable until the middle of October. It's probably not worth mailing it, although I could do so, I suppose. > > Mike > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 00:29:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 00:29:30 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <1347776350.27532.YahooMailNeo@web87701.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1347776350.27532.YahooMailNeo@web87701.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ? On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: > > Well that's three so far... > > > >Dave Wade G4UGM > >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > >Make that four... > > Julian. > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 17 00:57:05 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 23:57:05 -0600 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request Message-ID: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Microsoft introduced a new "exFAT" file system a few years ago, and I wouldn't care about it in the least, except that it is now the official filesystem for SD-XC cards. I only care about that in that digital cameras and such will likely only support exFAT on SD-XC cards, and I'd like my computer, not running Windows, to be able to efficiently access files on such cards. The problem is that Microsoft filed several patent applications covering exFAT. One of them is application US 2009/0164440 A1, for which the US patent office has recently mailed a "Notice of Allowance", which means that they have decided to issue the patent. This application is titled "Quick filename lookup using name hash". Based on the title, it sounded like they are doing what TRS-DOS 2.0 did back in 1978, which is putting on the disk a hash table of filenames which then refer to directory entries. TRS-DOS did that so that it usually only needed to read two sectors to look up a file, the HIT (Hash Index Table) sector, and the actual directory sector containing the file's directory entry. Otherwise they might have had to read multiple directory sectors to find the file if it existed, and all of the directory sectors if it did not. The claims of the patent are a little difficult to interpret. They refer to "a first one or more computer readable storage media having computer executable instructions...". This is basically referring to the disk/flash/etc. the operating system is booted from. They refer to "a second one or more..." which is the disk/flash/etc. which holds the file system in question. Here's are two of the independent claims: 1. A first one or more computer readable storage media having computer executable instructions that, when executed on at least one processor, configure the at least one processor to perform a method of detecting if a target file name exists on a second one or more computer readable storage media, the method comprising: (A) determining a name hash from the target name; (B) determining if the name hash corresponds to a directory entry set name hash value, the directory entry set name hash value corresponding to one of a plurality of directory entry sets, each of the plurality of directory entry sets stored on the second one or more computer readable storage media; (C) determining if the target name matches a directory entry set name corresponding to the one of the plurality of directory entry sets after step (B) determines the name hash corresponds to the directory entry set name hash value; and (D) indicating that the target name exists after step (C) determines the target name matches the directory entry set name. 19. A method of detecting if a target file name exists, the method executing on one or more processors, the method comprising: (A) determining a file name hash from the target file name; (B) determining if the file name hash corresponds to a directory entry hash value, the directory entry hash value corresponding to one of a plurality of directory entries; (C) determining if the target file name matches a file name, the file name corresponding to the one of the plurality of directory entries after step (B) determines the file name hash corresponds to the directory entry hash value; and (D) indicating that the target file name exists after step (C) determines the target file name matches the file name corresponding to the one of the plurality of directory entries. These seem to be to be to be *exactly* what TRS-DOS 2.0 did as early as 1978, so it seems possible that TRS-DOS could be used as prior art to invalidate at least these independent claims, and quite possibly some of the dependent claims as well. So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Sep 17 01:31:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:31:26 +0100 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: <50547A95.13081.D6E3D7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 15, 12 12:54:45 pm Message-ID: As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK > > in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO > > research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the > > telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of > > switching systems. The Enigma key recovery was done using the multi enigma simulators (bombes) designed by Alan Turing and built by the British Tabulating Machine Company. The GPO had a research station at Dollis Hill in north London. One of their engineers was a certain Tommy Flowers who had done research into valves as switches as opposed to your bog standard 3000 series PO relay. He found that provided you left the valves switched on they were nearly as reliable as relays and of course much faster. Flowers knew the Bletchley Park people as the Bombes were all relay and motor driven and Flowers was the PO research man on fast switching. Colossus was designed to attack something other than Enigma. To be exact the Fish series of teleprinter cipher attachments. Whilst they could read the tapes optically at high speed they could not react fast enough to matches. They consulted Flowers informally and at least at first, he helped (unfunded) to design and build the logic side out of valves. Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 16 September 2012 18:00 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Microsoft cordless phone > > On 15 Sep 2012 at 20:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > As an aside, much of the electronicv work for codebreaking in the UK > > in WW2, including Colossus, was done, IIRC, by people from the GPO > > research labs. GPO = General Post Office, who at the time ran the > > telephone system in the UK, and who therefore had great expereience of > > switching systems. > > Maybe, but in the 70s when I visited, telephones in Britain were a > nightmare compared to their US counterparts--particularly pay In the 1979s. the UK telephoens were still essentially a government monopoly. Everything had to be rentyed from the GPO, you couldn't do any mdoifications yourself [1]. Pkug-in telephones were very rare, most werre hardwired. If you are interested in finding out more about the wiring of subscriber equipment in the UK -- telephone schemantic,s how extensions were wired [2], etc, then do a goodle search for N diagram. And enjoy... [1] That's not to say it didn't occur :-) [2] Multiple phones opn a line were a bit odd. The speech circuitry was wired in paralel, the ringers (bells) in series. Evey extension scheme had a 'Plan' number -- Plan 4 is the one for plug-in telephones. Note that there are different versiosn of Plan 4 depending on whethr you rented one telephoen or morte than one. I guess if you decided ot rent a second telephoen on Paln 4, an engineer had ot come out and rewire all the sockets and the existing telephone. You were saying... :-) On the other hand, the Planphones (telephoens with swithcing to extensions, facilities to call exten sions, etc) are rather fun. > telephones. And doesn't England still have coin-op residential > electrical service? When I heard this referred to on an old Yes and no. It is not common, virtually everyone has a normal watt-hour meter that is read 4 times a year (or should be) and gets a bill shortly after. However, if the electricity company thinks you're a 'bad risk' and are likely to not pay the bill, they can install a prepaymetn meter. In the old days, that was something you put coilns in (often shillings, not pennies), nowadays it more likely you put money on a smartcard or similar at a local shop and use that to add credit ot the meter. That way the meter iteslf never contains coins, and they don't have to send soembody round to empty it (such people were attecked for the money they carried, and often scuh meters were used in less 'desirable' areas...) I can see why a scrap dealer would be likely to be judged a 'bad risk'... -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Sep 17 01:58:46 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:58:46 +0100 Subject: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) In-Reply-To: References: from "Rod Smallwood" at Sep 16, 12 09:32:41 am Message-ID: <3366A4EB005A4241B3D97B31EE21DE60@MailBox> If I remember correctly the LA100 was somewhat typewriter like. It may have been called a LetterwriterII and the keyboardless version Letterprinter II Regards ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 16 September 2012 18:29 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Selenar Graphics II (Was: DECWriter II LA36 being given away) > Sadly although I sold thousands of LA36's in the UK I don't have one. > I do have an LA75 and an LA50. I think i have an LA50 somewhere. I certainly heve a couple of LA100s [1] and an LA324 [2] [1[ I do like the 'nodding printhead' in this unit. The printhead is mouted o na solenoid mechanism that moves the business end by havle a dot pitch vertically. That means you can get the equivelent of an 18 pin prinehed in 2 passes. [2] This is a more recent 24 pin unit with 3 microprocessors inside. I beleive it can taek a colour ribbon, but Iv'e never got one for it. This is also the only thing I own with an MMJ connector (!). > > Obviously LA36's, LA120's and LA180's are much larger animals and tend to be The LA110 is a lot smalelr than the LA36. The LA36 has a lot of electroncis in the stand, so it can't be turned int oa tabletop unit. The LA100 is. -tony From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 17:15:17 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 18:15:17 -0400 Subject: Restoring an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: References: <016901cd942a$74bf6510$5e3e2f30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I would highly, highly suggest making a trip over to the GreenKeys mailing list. They know everything you could possibly want to know about restoring a Model 33 ASR (and some things you don't want to know as well). They'll also more then happily point you toward a proper maintenance set for the machine. Not saying that the CCTech list is not the right place to ask, but CCTech isn't a mailing list devoted almost entirely to teleprinters (Kleinschmidt, Siemens, Creed, Teletype Corporation...). Cheers, Christian From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Sun Sep 16 21:23:18 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:23:18 -0500 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: One problem solved ? one of the boards has a set of eight 2716s on it with ?BASIC V3.0? written on the first one. The CPU board has four more with what I hope is some form of an OS that will get me to a prompt and let me go to BASIC?s location in memory. Almost all the chips are socketed on all the boards so I?m in the process of testing and reseating them. Richard Lynch On 9/11/12 8:11 PM, "Richard Lynch" wrote: > Does anyone know if there is software available for a Chromatics CG-1599 color > graphics computer? Z80-based, has a dual 8-inch floppy drive and paper tape > reader. Supposedly there was a version of Microsoft BASIC for it, but first I > have to find the OS to get thing booted. > Richard Lynch From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 17 02:08:42 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:08:42 +0100 Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? In-Reply-To: <1692385098-1347849486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1735235191-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1692385098-1347849486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1735235191-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 17 September 2012 03:38, wrote: > Better yet bid *their* max. That's really the winning factor, right? J/k lol yeah, but I've not got infinite budget. In this case, it's just I'm not used to losing out on such equipment - it's not usually "in-demand" ! Sticking a bid in when I saw it, and forgetting it until the winning email came in, used to work. Maybe I'll have to look into some sniping software of my own... (Another auction I lost, was a photo-less barely-described thing ... after I emailed the seller, got a photo, and told him what it was, he updated the auction, and I promptly got outbid! Not sure I did the right thing there, but it turned out to be something I wasn't /that/ interested in having, although it could have been useful for spares.. At least somebody else wanted it enough to offer more than me.) Rob From mta at umich.edu Mon Sep 17 02:10:54 2012 From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 03:10:54 -0400 Subject: Selenar Graphics II LA-36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --On September 16, 2012 3:54:31 PM -0700 Rick Bensene wrote: > I can't find a service manual for this unit online anywhere, so I'm > wondering what the best approach to diagnosis would be. The maintenance manuals for the LA36 used to be on the University of Queensland Museum of IT web site. This site is now dead, byt the Wayback Machine still has it. If you look at you'll see a fairly impressive list of DEC (mostly) manuals. Both volumes of the LA36 maintenance manual, as well as the illustrated parts breakdown (and the user manual) are on the list. I didn't try downloading them but if that doesn't work, I have copies that I saved back when the site was still live. Too bad they shut it down. There are also a few things on BitSavers and there is a page listing LA36 documents at , but most of the links there point to the UQ web site and are dead. Mike From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 17 02:31:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 03:31:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209170731.DAA01799@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...keep getting sniped...] >> Has there been a sudden re-resurgence of interest in all things >> viewdata? Until recently, [...] > Your bid strategy just isn't going to work for in-demand items. I suspect that's not the issue. You may note that the question asked is basically a form of "have these become in-demand items?", not a form of "how can I keep from getting sniped?". /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scott at kevill.com Mon Sep 17 03:53:08 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:53:08 +0800 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Eric, Best references are: TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded & Other Mysteries (1982) by James Lee Farvour - Refers to "TRSDOS 2.3 Copyright 1979 Tandy Corporation" - "The author is especially grateful to the Tandy Corporation for allowing the source code for TRSDOS to be reproduced in this book." - Chapter 2, section 2.5 starting on page 23 briefly describes how the HIT works and its layout. Also provides the hash algorithm source code - Chapter 5 describes SYS2/SYS. This is the meat of it. Describes the HIT usage in *immense* detail - Appendix II, pages 265-270, also has the full commented source code for SYS2/SYS NEWDOS+ Manual (March 15, 1979) by Apparat - (NEWDOS+ began as patches to TRSDOS 2.1, and thus required TRSDOS 2.1 as well) - Pages 5-6 describe the HIT and directory sectors - Page 9 mentions HIT errors with DIRCHECK/CMD These have a reasonable amount of detail: TRS-80 Hacker's Handbook for NEWDOS/80 (1983) by Kevin O'Hare - Chapter 5, pages 66-68 describe the HIT and directory sectors in detail NEWDOS/80 2.0 Manual (August 1981) by Apparat - States NEWDOS/80 2.0 was released August 1981 - States NEWDOS/80 1.0 was released June 1980 - States NEWDOS/21 was released March 1979 - Chapter 5, section 5.6 (pages 5-4 to 5-12) describe the HIT and directory sectors in detail - Chapter 12 describes the directory format differences from TRSDOS 2.3 and previous NEWDOS versions NEWDOS/80 2.5 Manual (unknown) by Apparat - States NEWDOS/80 1.0 was released June 1980 - States NEWDOS/21 was released March 1979 - Chapter 5, section 5.6 (pages 5-4 to 5-12) describe the HIT and directory sectors in detail - Chapter 12 describes the directory format differences from TRSDOS 2.3 and previous NEWDOS versions Microsoft BASIC Decoded & Other Mysteries (1981) by James Farvour - (Despite the book name, this also describes TRSDOS which has nothing to do with MS) - Chapter 3, pages 39-41 describe the disk format and HIT These make light references to it: Machine Language Disk I/O & Other Mysteries (1982) by Michael J. Wagner - Page 112 refers to TRSDOS error codes "HIT READ ERROR" and "HIT WRITE ERROR" Pathways Through the ROM (1980) by multiple authors - Chapter 13 by John Hartford, Pages 85-86 describe SYS2/SYS and the HIT for TRSDOS and NEWDOS (not NEWDOS/80) Inside Super Utility Plus Series 3.0 (1982) by Paul Wiener - Multiple brief references to the HIT sectors Super Utility Plus Manual (1982) by Kim Watt - Describes HIT sector repair feature The NEWDOS/80 information is useful because it retained some compatibility. From what I can tell, NEWDOS+ was NEWDOS/21. Guessing the 21 referred to TRSDOS 2.1 base. I can send you any of these if you need them. Hope this helps, Scott. On 17/09/2012, at 1:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Microsoft introduced a new "exFAT" file system a few years ago, and I wouldn't care about it in the least, except that it is now the official filesystem for SD-XC cards. I only care about that in that digital cameras and such will likely only support exFAT on SD-XC cards, and I'd like my computer, not running Windows, to be able to efficiently access files on such cards. The problem is that Microsoft filed several patent applications covering exFAT. One of them is application US 2009/0164440 A1, for which the US patent office has recently mailed a "Notice of Allowance", which means that they have decided to issue the patent. > > This application is titled "Quick filename lookup using name hash". Based on the title, it sounded like they are doing what TRS-DOS 2.0 did back in 1978, which is putting on the disk a hash table of filenames which then refer to directory entries. TRS-DOS did that so that it usually only needed to read two sectors to look up a file, the HIT (Hash Index Table) sector, and the actual directory sector containing the file's directory entry. Otherwise they might have had to read multiple directory sectors to find the file if it existed, and all of the directory sectors if it did not. > > The claims of the patent are a little difficult to interpret. They refer to "a first one or more computer readable storage media having computer executable instructions...". This is basically referring to the disk/flash/etc. the operating system is booted from. They refer to "a second one or more..." which is the disk/flash/etc. which holds the file system in question. > > Here's are two of the independent claims: > > 1. A first one or more computer readable storage media having computer executable instructions that, when executed on at least one processor, configure the at least one processor to perform a method of detecting if a target file name exists on a second one or more computer readable storage media, the method comprising: > > (A) determining a name hash from the target name; > > (B) determining if the name hash corresponds to a directory entry > set name hash value, the directory entry set name hash value > corresponding to one of a plurality of directory entry sets, each of > the plurality of directory entry sets stored on the second one or > more computer readable storage media; > > (C) determining if the target name matches a directory entry set > name corresponding to the one of the plurality of directory entry > sets after step (B) determines the name hash corresponds to the > directory entry set name hash value; and > > (D) indicating that the target name exists after step (C) determines > the target name matches the directory entry set name. > > > 19. A method of detecting if a target file name exists, the method executing on one or more processors, the method comprising: > > (A) determining a file name hash from the target file name; > > (B) determining if the file name hash corresponds to a directory > entry hash value, the directory entry hash value corresponding to > one of a plurality of directory entries; > > (C) determining if the target file name matches a file name, the > file name corresponding to the one of the plurality of directory > entries after step (B) determines the file name hash corresponds to > the directory entry hash value; and > > (D) indicating that the target file name exists after step (C) > determines the target file name matches the file name corresponding > to the one of the plurality of directory entries. > > These seem to be to be to be *exactly* what TRS-DOS 2.0 did as early as 1978, so it seems possible that TRS-DOS could be used as prior art to invalidate at least these independent claims, and quite possibly some of the dependent claims as well. > > So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? > From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 17 05:18:25 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 05:18:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OK, Who's bidding against me? In-Reply-To: <1692385098-1347849486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1735235191-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1692385098-1347849486-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1735235191-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Better yet bid *their* max. That's really the winning factor, right? J/k That actually can work in certain instances, such as if you have a dealer going around trying to buy every single "X" that turns up. If he is really aggressive and you eventually learn his target price, you can push him up on every single listing, even if he snipes. This isn't something anyone would normally want to do, but there are times when this can be a useful tactic. In live auctions, and especially with cash only sales, this is done all the time. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Sep 17 07:44:47 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:44:47 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest attendee from Minneapolis/St Paul? Message-ID: <000001cd94d2$38f20300$aad60900$@rubin@ameritech.net> Is anyone driving in from the Twin Cities for VCF MW next week? If you are and you have room to take a box or two of vintage gear back with you, please contact me off list. Thanks, Jack Rubin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 10:36:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:36:14 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2012 at 23:57, Eric Smith wrote: > So my question is, are there any published works documenting the > TRS-DOS file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT > table, other than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. > Pennington? I'm sure that if you delved into the mainframe world software (which may be hard to do), you'd find similar schemes. Hashing for filename lookup wasn't all that uncommon--after all, it was used in just about every compiler I ever ran into for symbol table lookup But computer software patents weren't allowed back then, which makes the claim of "prior art" hard to make. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 11:25:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:25:54 -0400 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2012, at 11:36 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Sep 2012 at 23:57, Eric Smith wrote: > >> So my question is, are there any published works documenting the >> TRS-DOS file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT >> table, other than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. >> Pennington? > > I'm sure that if you delved into the mainframe world software (which > may be hard to do), you'd find similar schemes. Hashing for filename > lookup wasn't all that uncommon--after all, it was used in just about > every compiler I ever ran into for symbol table lookup But computer > software patents weren't allowed back then, which makes the claim of > "prior art" hard to make. Does prior art have to be patented? I'm certainly no lawyer, but I was under the impression that what matters is that it existed before the invention claimed, thus rendering the invention non-novel and thus not valid for a patent. Thus, even though no one has patented the wheel, you can't get a patent on it (though there are those who have certainly managed to do so by hoodwinking the patent offices). Is my understanding flawed? I'm certainly willing to believe it is. - Dave From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 17 11:31:49 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:31:49 +0200 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: snip ---- snip --- snip ---- > This brings up a great point on the original comment about model > railroaders, and military modelers. The skill set you're looking for > is actually Doll House makers, as (at least in the past) the typical > scale is 1/12th. Before anyone scoffs, you should see the level of > detail that people really into Doll Houses achieve. We're talking > amazingly detailed works of art! > snip ----- snip ---- snip ---- You are absolutely right there. I have seen dollhouse furniture which looks like it was just shrunken by a magical machine. The detailing can be of such a quality that looks almost impossible. I believe that 17 & 18th century apprentices in furniture making often made a scaled piece as part of becoming a master furniture maker. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Sep 17 11:35:54 2012 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:35:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Second time around, was: Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: October 11th is a local recycling day here. I hate to do it, but I need space for a 1954 Mercedes Benz 220S, which means supplemental things need to go. I had a number of people get in contact with me, but no one actually confirmed coming to retrieve anything, so it's all still here. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Cheers; - JP On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings; > > I need to make Space and I've got a random assortment of things I've > either never turned on, or not messed with in many years. Free for pickup > (I'd really prefer not to box them up) from 50441: > > IBM 5324 w/keyboard and monitor > I've never powered this on and the drive knobs were snapped off prior to > my receiving it. My understanding is this is a binary compatible System/34 > in baby shoes, but I might be full of it. > > AS/400 9402 F02 > I last powered this on maybe eight years ago. It booted, but I haven't > touched it since. > > HP NetServers > 4d/66LM > 5/60LM > Six drives between them - they should be working > > IBM Series/1 in rack > Someone gutted this before I got it - I have an 8" FDD and the logic cage > with the controllers panel. Someone removed the power supply, but I have > no reason to believe any of the logic boards were damaged. The hard disk > was also taken to pieces, so I have the rack tray and, presumably, the > controller in the logic cage, but not the disk itself. > > Given how long I've had them, I stress "as-is". Lemme know if you're > interested; > > - JP > Hampton, Iowa > > From mta at umich.edu Mon Sep 17 11:46:14 2012 From: mta at umich.edu (Mike Alexander) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:46:14 -0400 Subject: Selenar Graphics II LA-36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2012, at 3:10 AM, Mike Alexander wrote: > > The maintenance manuals for the LA36 used to be on the University of Queensland Museum of IT web site. This site is now dead, byt the Wayback Machine still has it. If you look at you'll see a fairly impressive list of DEC (mostly) manuals. Both volumes of the LA36 maintenance manual, as well as the illustrated parts breakdown (and the user manual) are on the list. I didn't try downloading them but if that doesn't work, I have copies that I saved back when the site was still live. Too bad they shut it down. > > There are also a few things on BitSavers and there is a page listing LA36 documents at , but most of the links there point to the UQ web site and are dead. It turns out that this archive is also on Bitsavers at . Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 12:18:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> No solid citations, but a few more leads: On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS > file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other > than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? That is, indeed, the obvious citation. Pennington also published a series of later books as the "& other mysteries" series, AND published a PC port of Michael Shrayer's "Electric Pencil" Can Randy Cook be found? He wrote the original TRS-DOS. He was residing in Carrollton (sp?) Texas. Who was behind the "TRS-DOS 4" release? Howzbout "Adventure International" in Florida (who had prior success with adventure games) and released VT-OS If not, howzbout Roy Soltoff? and the rest of the team that rewrote VTOS into L-DOS. When Radio Shack re-released L-DOS as TRS-DOS 6?, there was some discussion in the media about Randy getting royalties. Is the [copyrighted] source code still around? That wouldn't show "infringement", but it would certainly show prior art. Also, contact Mike Gingell. He wrote "TRS-CROSS"? (sp?) Which read and wrote TRS-DOS on PC, and a few other items that dealt with TRS-DOS at that level. IIRC, in some of his documentation, he discussed the format. I think that I remember something by Bill Barden. He wrote some stuff such as describing FM as used on TRS80, and accesd to the FDC on TRS80 I explained the HASH idea in a DP48a course in Vista College in Fall 1981 (physically held in Evans 10!) But I doubt that any of my lecture notes still exist. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 12:21:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:21:28 -0700 Subject: Second time around, was: Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5056F9A8.7726.75DE41@cclist.sydex.com> JP, If you'd like, I can post this on Erik's VCF--it might garner some interest there. --Chuck On 17 Sep 2012 at 11:35, JP Hindin wrote: > > October 11th is a local recycling day here. I hate to do it, but I > need space for a 1954 Mercedes Benz 220S, which means supplemental > things need to go. > > I had a number of people get in contact with me, but no one actually > confirmed coming to retrieve anything, so it's all still here. > > Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? > > Cheers; > - JP > > > > On Fri, 10 Aug 2012, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > > Greetings; > > > > I need to make Space and I've got a random assortment of things I've > > either never turned on, or not messed with in many years. Free for > > pickup (I'd really prefer not to box them up) from 50441: > > > > IBM 5324 w/keyboard and monitor > > I've never powered this on and the drive knobs were snapped off > > prior to my receiving it. My understanding is this is a binary > > compatible System/34 in baby shoes, but I might be full of it. > > > > AS/400 9402 F02 > > I last powered this on maybe eight years ago. It booted, but I > > haven't touched it since. > > > > HP NetServers > > 4d/66LM > > 5/60LM > > Six drives between them - they should be working > > > > IBM Series/1 in rack > > Someone gutted this before I got it - I have an 8" FDD and the logic > > cage with the controllers panel. Someone removed the power supply, > > but I have no reason to believe any of the logic boards were > > damaged. The hard disk was also taken to pieces, so I have the rack > > tray and, presumably, the controller in the logic cage, but not the > > disk itself. > > > > Given how long I've had them, I stress "as-is". Lemme know if you're > > interested; > > > > - JP > > Hampton, Iowa > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 12:26:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:26:41 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <5056FAE1.9294.7AA527@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2012 at 12:25, David Riley wrote: >> Does prior art have to be patented? I'm certainly no lawyer, but I > was under the impression that what matters is that it existed before > the invention claimed, thus rendering the invention non-novel and thus > not valid for a patent. Thus, even though no one has patented the > wheel, you can't get a patent on it (though there are those who have > certainly managed to do so by hoodwinking the patent offices). I don't know--I do remember one of the earliest software patents granted was for the use of CRC for checking file integrity. I kid you not. IANAL, thank heavens. --Chuck From scott at kevill.com Mon Sep 17 12:33:27 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:33:27 +0800 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <539E5441-3233-4A72-9BFE-0658A4FA63C6@kevill.com> On 18/09/2012, at 1:18 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that I remember something by Bill Barden. He wrote some stuff > such as describing FM as used on TRS80, and accesd to the FDC on TRS80 Yes, "TRS-80 Disc Interfacing Guide" in 1978, however it was all low-level. Nothing file or directory-based. Scott. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 12:33:54 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:33:54 -0400 Subject: Second time around, was: Items free for pickup; Iowa In-Reply-To: <5056F9A8.7726.75DE41@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056F9A8.7726.75DE41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > AS/400 9402 F02 >> > I last powered this on maybe eight years ago. It booted, but I >> > haven't touched it since. I don't need one of these (since I have something very much like this already), but from our discussions a few months ago, I do still need some way to attach my terminal to the one I have. If you are cleaning and run across some way cable up a console terminal from my "workstation" board, please keep me in mind. I'd like to see if mine works since I've never tried powering it on. I will not be at VCFmw, sadly. I'll be at the Pittsburgh Mini Maker Faire that weekend, but the bit I need should easily fit in a small shipping box. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 12:39:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120917103800.C24314@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > Howzbout "Adventure International" in Florida (who had prior success with > adventure games) and released VT-OS principal was Scott Adams, although not the only Scott Adams in the industry. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 12:44:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056FAE1.9294.7AA527@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com>, <5056FAE1.9294.7AA527@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120917104132.M24314@shell.lmi.net> > >> Does prior art have to be patented? I'm certainly no lawyer, but On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know--I do remember one of the earliest software patents > granted was for the use of CRC for checking file integrity. I kid > you not. > IANAL, thank heavens. I remember Lee? looking for demonstrable art to try to block some IBM software patents, such as use of two 16 bit registers to hold the coordinates of upper-left and lower-right points to define a rectangle in INT10h ! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 12:48:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 10:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <539E5441-3233-4A72-9BFE-0658A4FA63C6@kevill.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> <539E5441-3233-4A72-9BFE-0658A4FA63C6@kevill.com> Message-ID: <20120917104427.B24314@shell.lmi.net> > > I think that I remember something by Bill Barden. He wrote some stuff > > such as describing FM as used on TRS80, and accesd to the FDC on TRS80 On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Scott Kevill wrote: > Yes, "TRS-80 Disc Interfacing Guide" in 1978, however it was all > low-level. Nothing file or directory-based. He published some other stuff, such as pocket reference cards, and I thought that I remembered (unrefreshed dynamic wetware) something else from him that talked about the structures. THANK YOU! for providing the details on the interfacing guide; memory wasn't working From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Sep 17 13:05:48 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:05:48 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 Curt From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 13:17:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:17:15 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 I remember seeing that 'round these parts a few months ago; IIRC, the conclusion was that it was probably real, but since there's little to no existing software on Twiggy disks, it's not like you can do much with it (unless you want to make use of that EEPROM adaptor board). I myself would love to see a picture of the early logic board; was that one of the ones with Burrell's IBM chip? - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 13:18:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1347905888.55549.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 C: Looks like you're going to have to buy it to find out what's in it. ?There are some oldies on Lisalist. I would think someone would be able to confirm or deny it's validity. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 13:23:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:23:08 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> Message-ID: <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 > > I remember seeing that 'round these parts a few months ago; IIRC, > the conclusion was that it was probably real, but since there's > little to no existing software on Twiggy disks, it's not like you > can do much with it (unless you want to make use of that EEPROM > adaptor board). I myself would love to see a picture of the > early logic board; was that one of the ones with Burrell's IBM > chip? Never mind; there's actually a picture further down the page, I just didn't see it in the gallery. - Dave From scott at kevill.com Mon Sep 17 14:17:49 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 03:17:49 +0800 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <20120917104427.B24314@shell.lmi.net> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> <539E5441-3233-4A72-9BFE-0658A4FA63C6@kevill.com> <20120917104427.B24314@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <36BB8A82-1EF7-43B3-9AE0-4FF096668CB7@kevill.com> On 18/09/2012, at 1:48 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> I think that I remember something by Bill Barden. He wrote some stuff >>> such as describing FM as used on TRS80, and accesd to the FDC on TRS80 > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Scott Kevill wrote: >> Yes, "TRS-80 Disc Interfacing Guide" in 1978, however it was all >> low-level. Nothing file or directory-based. > > He published some other stuff, such as pocket reference cards, and I > thought that I remembered (unrefreshed dynamic wetware) something else > from him that talked about the structures. > > > THANK YOU! for providing the details on the interfacing guide; memory > wasn't working He did describe some structures in it at the end, but it was just the raw formatted track data that TRSDOS used. I have a PDF of it if you like. I didn't know about the reference cards. Until recently discovering the Disc Interfacing Guide a few years ago, I only knew of him from his TRS-80 assembly language programming books. Scott. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 17 14:25:43 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:25:43 -0600 Subject: University of Queensland scans (was: Selenar Graphics II LA-36) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mike Alexander writes: > The maintenance manuals for the LA36 used to be on the University of > Queensland Museum of IT web site. This site is now dead, byt the > Wayback Machine still has it. If you look at > Bitsavers has a mirror: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 14:42:26 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <36BB8A82-1EF7-43B3-9AE0-4FF096668CB7@kevill.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> <539E5441-3233-4A72-9BFE-0658A4FA63C6@kevill.com> <20120917104427.B24314@shell.lmi.net> <36BB8A82-1EF7-43B3-9AE0-4FF096668CB7@kevill.com> Message-ID: <20120917123527.U27976@shell.lmi.net> > > He published some other stuff, such as pocket reference cards, and I > > thought that I remembered (unrefreshed dynamic wetware) something else > > from him that talked about the structures. On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Scott Kevill wrote: > He did describe some structures in it at the end, but it was just the > raw formatted track data that TRSDOS used. I have a PDF of it if you > like. That might be handy. I've got a dead-tree copy, but not sure where. > I didn't know about the reference cards. Until recently discovering the > Disc Interfacing Guide a few years ago, I only knew of him from his > TRS-80 assembly language programming books. The reference cards were tri-fold card stock. There was a blue one and a brown one. I used to resell those and other stuff 30 years ago. I ran across a stack of the reference cards 5 years (three moves) ago. But, IIRC, he also had done some other additional publications. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 14:49:29 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:49:29 +0000 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> I don't remember the fate of the last auction but do remember the sellers name. IIRC it was listed for a similarly ridiculous price and the speculation was the same. Could be legit but nothing was written for it so expensive mantle piece. -----Original Message----- From: David Riley Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:23:08 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Twiggy Mac?!?!? On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 > > I remember seeing that 'round these parts a few months ago; IIRC, > the conclusion was that it was probably real, but since there's > little to no existing software on Twiggy disks, it's not like you > can do much with it (unless you want to make use of that EEPROM > adaptor board). I myself would love to see a picture of the > early logic board; was that one of the ones with Burrell's IBM > chip? Never mind; there's actually a picture further down the page, I just didn't see it in the gallery. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 17 14:50:28 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:50:28 +0100 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <1347776350.27532.YahooMailNeo@web87701.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> I think this is a response to my posting about a regular meeting in Manchester (UK), for some reason the subject line got dropped. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: 17 September 2012 06:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: > > ? > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > > > On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: > > > > Well that's three so far... > > > > > >Dave Wade G4UGM > > >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > >Make that four... > > > > Julian. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 17 14:51:37 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:51:37 +0100 Subject: Restoring an ASR33 Teletype In-Reply-To: References: <016901cd942a$74bf6510$5e3e2f30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01ed01cd950d$daaac2f0$900048d0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks, someone else has already made the same suggestion, so I have sent a request to join the list. Thanks again. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > Sent: 16 September 2012 23:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Restoring an ASR33 Teletype > > I would highly, highly suggest making a trip over to the GreenKeys mailing > list. They know everything you could possibly want to know about restoring a > Model 33 ASR (and some things you don't want to know as well). > > They'll also more then happily point you toward a proper maintenance set > for the machine. > > > Not saying that the CCTech list is not the right place to ask, but CCTech isn't > a mailing list devoted almost entirely to teleprinters (Kleinschmidt, Siemens, > Creed, Teletype Corporation...). > > Cheers, > Christian From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Sep 17 14:59:24 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:59:24 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> I mean... honestly other than this auction I've never seen or heard ANYTHING about a twiggy Mac before.... I would have thought that if anyone, Linzmayer in Apple Confidential or even Isaacson in the Steve Jobs book would've brought it up. The motherboard has some differences on it, most notable he also has an odd keyboard with a pull out tray on it, plus I've never seen the figure in the trenchcoat before as a logo for the product. I'm not an Apple guy obviously, my main thing is Atari, but I do follow Apple, I've owned a Fat Mac with a hyperdrive, a Lisa/2 with a Profile and a Mac IIci, now I own a Macbook... I am Apple System and Laserprinter certified, but I don't follow Apple close enough to know such intimate details as this mysterious machine. I am wondering if Wozniak could shed some light on it. barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > I don't remember the fate of the last auction but do remember the sellers name. IIRC it was listed for a similarly ridiculous price and the speculation was the same. Could be legit but nothing was written for it so expensive mantle piece. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Riley > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 14:23:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Twiggy Mac?!?!? > > On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > > >> On Sep 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> >>> I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this unit??? >>> >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 >>> >> I remember seeing that 'round these parts a few months ago; IIRC, >> the conclusion was that it was probably real, but since there's >> little to no existing software on Twiggy disks, it's not like you >> can do much with it (unless you want to make use of that EEPROM >> adaptor board). I myself would love to see a picture of the >> early logic board; was that one of the ones with Burrell's IBM >> chip? >> > > Never mind; there's actually a picture further down the page, > I just didn't see it in the gallery. > > > - Dave > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:04:13 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:04:13 +0100 Subject: Manchester (UK) meeting In-Reply-To: <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <68F989A7AB0E4C9B97B0632CF3A6ADA9@G4UGMT41> Probably me. How about next week, some where in Manchester city center? Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 17 September 2012 20:50 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: > > > I think this is a response to my posting about a regular > meeting in Manchester (UK), for some reason the subject line > got dropped. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > > Sent: 17 September 2012 06:30 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: > > > > ? > > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith > > wrote: > > > > > On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: > > > > > > Well that's three so far... > > > > > > > >Dave Wade G4UGM > > > >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > >Make that four... > > > > > > Julian. > > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:12:14 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2012 12:52 PM, wrote: > > I don't remember the fate of the last auction but do remember the sellers name. IIRC it was listed for a similarly ridiculous price and the speculation was the same. Could be legit but nothing was written for it so expensive mantle piece. Earlier discussions: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?30169 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?29001 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:15:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:15:25 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2012, at 3:59 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I mean... honestly other than this auction I've never seen or heard ANYTHING about a twiggy Mac before.... I would have thought that if anyone, Linzmayer in Apple Confidential or even Isaacson in the Steve Jobs book would've brought it up. The motherboard has some differences on it, most notable he also has an odd keyboard with a pull out tray on it, plus I've never seen the figure in the trenchcoat before as a logo for the product. I'm not an Apple guy obviously, my main thing is Atari, but I do follow Apple, I've owned a Fat Mac with a hyperdrive, a Lisa/2 with a Profile and a Mac IIci, now I own a Macbook... I am Apple System and Laserprinter certified, but I don't follow Apple close enough to know such intimate details as this mysterious machine. I am wondering if Wozniak could shed some light on it. It's actually discussed in some detail on Andy Hertzfeld's folklore.org site, which is dedicated to the genesis of the Macintosh. The specific story I recall, which is also linked in that auction, is here: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Hide_Under_This_Desk.txt The story is somewhat illuminating, though it doesn't talk a whole lot about the hardware specifics of Twiggy (which makes some sense, since Hertzfeld was a software guy). This story corroborates some elements of the eBay auction, notably the MacMan logo: http://folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Macintosh_Prototypes.txt Note that though the eBay seller's handle is "wozniak", I'm pretty sure it's not Steve (not least because they are listed as residing in Canada). - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 17 15:18:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 13:18:45 -0700 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> On 9/17/12 12:59 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I mean... honestly other than this auction I've never seen or heard ANYTHING about a twiggy Mac before. Twiggy macs are real. I had one. Stanford Special Collections has it now from the Apple Library donation. I'm skeptical that this one has the right ROMs, since the boot screen shows a Sony floppy. You also can't tell if the floppy icon on the back of the case is for a Sony or Twiggy floppy or if the back is textured (the front is not). This was discussed the last time it was listed on eBay. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 17 15:27:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCMCIA bus creation/controller In-Reply-To: <1347731663.74408.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347730180.98132.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5054BDA8.7050207@neurotica.com> <1347731663.74408.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201209172027.QAA04542@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> ISA PCMCIA adapters are mondo pricey on eBay. Icarumba. >> Seriously?? I probably have a few buried somewhere.? They were >> trashed by the thousands in pallets of PCs coming via DRMO auctions. >> Not terribly useful. No...until you have a PCMCIA card and no machine with PCMCIA. :/ > C: It's the electrical differences that are the major issues. Don't > knock yourself out, but it would be nice for the community to have > one to study at least. I have a board, ISA I think, with cables (four fat ribbon cables) to a dual-card PCMCIA socket. It worked fine last time I tried it in a machine, but that was some months ago. If it'd help I can get it out and have a look. What about it is of interest? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:33:09 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:33:09 -0500 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Thanks for tracking down the vcf chats, that's what I was doing also. http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEYOND-RARE-PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-APPLE-MAC-5-25-TWIGGY-DISK-DRIVE-/160785335718is the previous auction. It was odd since it had 1 bid for a while and claims it was sold but from what I recall had 0 bids in the end. Plenty of pictures though, ideally it's probably just a relisting like ebay is implying. Seller even lowered the shipping to only $400 this time. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 15:33:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:33:51 -0500 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: He states in the auction he's not Steve. His handle although certainly misleading is wozniac with a c not k. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 17 15:36:31 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:36:31 +0100 Subject: Manchester (UK) meeting In-Reply-To: <68F989A7AB0E4C9B97B0632CF3A6ADA9@G4UGMT41> References: <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> <68F989A7AB0E4C9B97B0632CF3A6ADA9@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <01f201cd9514$2090fdb0$61b2f910$@ntlworld.com> I might be able to do Friday next week, not the quietest day I know, but that is the only day I could make next week. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 17 September 2012 21:04 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Manchester (UK) meeting > > Probably me. How about next week, some where in Manchester city center? > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 17 September 2012 20:50 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: > > > > > > I think this is a response to my posting about a regular meeting in > > Manchester (UK), for some reason the subject line got dropped. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > > > Sent: 17 September 2012 06:30 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: > > > > > > ? > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith > > > wrote: > > > > > > > On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: > > > > > > > > Well that's three so far... > > > > > > > > > >Dave Wade G4UGM > > > > >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > > > >Make that four... > > > > > > > > Julian. > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 15:06:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:06:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 16, 12 11:57:05 pm Message-ID: [I agree, it dfoes sound a lot like TRS-DOS's HIT] > So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS > file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other > than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? Rather later than TRS-DOS 2.0, but still very much 'prior art' for today, I beleive the source code of LS-DOS 6 (essentialyl TRS-DOS 6, from teh mid 1980s) was published. It's certainly officially available now. I assume that contains information on the HIT usage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 14:58:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:58:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selenar Graphics II LA-36 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Sep 16, 12 03:54:31 pm Message-ID: > > I have powered up the LA36 with the Selenar Graphics board in it, and > from the information kindly obtained by list members (Byte Magazine > article about the Selenar Graphics II), I have been able to verify that > the unit indeed works. The graphics mode works, and all of the other > features documented in the Byte article seem to function properly. > > The issue that I've found is that only 5 of the 7 print pins are > working. Numbered with the top pin as number 1, it is the 3rd and 6th > pins that are either not firing at all, or are jammed such that they > can't come forward enough to make an impression. I assume this is nthe standard LA36 pinthead. The first thing to do is to remvoe it can clean the business end with propan-2-ol. Take care not to use toomuch, you cna disolve the adhesive that holds the synthetic gemstone bearing in place. Now, fro mteh DEC printset, check the resistance from each of the drive connections to the common conenction. They should all be much the same. If pins 3 and 6 test open then either the coils are burnt out (==new printheat time) or more likely the flexiprint conenctiong to the head is broekn. Often this can be carefully repaired. Then use a bench supply, one side to the common conention, otehr side ot the pin 1 derve. Turn up the votls and wath the pin. See what sort of votlage makes the pin extend, and how far out it comes. Repeat for the other pins, Do pins 3 and 6 behave i nthe same way? If hte head is OK, next step would be the driver s o nthe power supply obard (IIRC). I doubt the problem is further back i nthe logic, fortunately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 15:25:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:25:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <20120917095752.S24314@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 17, 12 10:18:48 am Message-ID: > When Radio Shack re-released L-DOS as TRS-DOS 6?, there was some > discussion in the media about Randy getting royalties. > Is the [copyrighted] source code still around? That wouldn't show > "infringement", but it would certainly show prior art. It certainly was on Tim Mann's site (officially, I believe). Idownladed it yeras ago. It looks like SYS2.ASM contains at least some of the HIT stuff. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 17 16:14:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:14:11 -0600 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> Scott Kevill wrote: > Best references are: [...] Thanks for the excellent list of references. I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". Do you mind if I include your list, with attribution, on a web page about prior art relating to the patent? Thanks! Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 17 16:19:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:19:34 -0600 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm sure that if you delved into the mainframe world software (which > may be hard to do), you'd find similar schemes. Hashing for filename > lookup wasn't all that uncommon--after all, it was used in just about > every compiler I ever ran into for symbol table lookup However, using it for in-memory symbol table lookup isn't prior art for using it to reduce disk access for filename lookup in a directory on a storage medium, unless you can prove that it is an obvious extension. You and I would probably think it is obvious. Unfortunately the patent office "obviousness test", which is supposed to be about a "person having ordinary skill in the art" (PHOSITA), as actually applied seems only to consider persons that are complete morons, for whom nothing is obvious. > But computer software patents weren't allowed back then, which makes > the claim of "prior art" hard to make. --Chuck Whether software patents were allowed back then has no bearing on whether something that can be shown to have been done at the time qualifies as prior art today. Best regards, Eric From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 17 16:54:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 16:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: > On Sep 16, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> >>> I have a Sequent SE20 with Dynix installed. I also have the terminal to go with it. >>> It use to boot but I didn't have the password. >>> Any interst for $150 before I part it out. >>> Located in New Baltimore, MI. 48047 or I can make it available in Port Huron, MI. 48060 >>> >>> Rob >>> >>> Quick pic at : http://www.borsuk.info/ebay/sequent.jpg >> >> Part out a Sequent SE20? You are kidding, right? As uncommon as these >> are, parting one out would be very ill-advised and there would be >> nearly no demand for individual parts. If freight wouldn't be a deal >> killer, I'd be after this one myself, but I'm nowhere near there and >> these things are heavy. I generally hunt for older Unix systems for >> free/open source software porting work, and one of the target platforms >> I've never been able to test with is Dynix. > > I'm not going to part it out to sell, I'm going to scrap it. I've had this for a couple of years and now I'm offering it to the list. > I'm not breaking the bank at $150 but I've been out of work for 6 months and I need to make sure I have money for my bills and family. > I'll get just under this in scrap value. I'm sorry but I need the money more then I need this machine. > > Rob http://www.savetoby.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 17:05:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120917150417.G29383@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Thanks for the excellent list of references. > I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I > reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" was the first in the series, and I'm pretty sure that it DID discuss the directory structures. Is Harv Pennington locatable? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 17 17:17:53 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 17:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Official Spring cleaning sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Apr 2012, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message: > Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 08:01:00 -0500 > From: John Foust > > At 05:07 PM 4/15/2012, David Riley wrote: >> On Apr 15, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Steven Landon wrote: >> >>> > >> How can this fellow continue scamming, year after year? >> - John > > Well, as he gets banned from one forum/list after another, he just moves > on to the next; looks like he's found a home here at last... > > To his credit some people have apparently bought from him with no > issues, but I'd still be wondering if any of the stuff he's flogging now > is part of the loot he stole from fellow hobbyists in his prime... [Reading back through my spooled messages from when I was inactive, even though this is months old now this is one thread I have to add to.] http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2012-April/thread.html#315098 I wonder if this is one of the guys who burned me? After getting burned on a number of trades of old boards and misc stuff, I pretty much stopped trading entirely and for years was inactive here and instead bought/sold small classiccmp type stuff on eBay. I've seen some of the stuff I sent one guy listed repeatedly on eBay at insane prices by a seller with 1000s of overpriced "vintage" PC parts (386/486 generation stuff listed for insane amounts, etc). From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 17:24:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:24:14 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com>, <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2012 at 15:19, Eric Smith wrote: > However, using it for in-memory symbol table lookup isn't prior art > for using it to reduce disk access for filename lookup in a directory > on a storage medium, unless you can prove that it is an obvious > extension. You and I would probably think it is obvious. > Unfortunately the patent office "obviousness test", which is supposed > to be about a "person having ordinary skill in the art" (PHOSITA), as > actually applied seems only to consider persons that are complete > morons, for whom nothing is obvious. My point is that we weren't idiots back then and devices were much slower than they are today. Anything to improve performance would have been welcome. For example, we briefly played with a filesystem where allocation maps were kept on a sector for the storage on an entire cylinder. I would be *very* surprised if a file name table hash wasn't used somewhere. Of course, you'd have billions of lines of code to rummage through--if it said code hadn't been dumpstered ages ago. Even so, where's the payoff for someone who might know where to look? For example, there were FAT file systems 45 years ago (we didn't call it a FAT, but rather an RBT for "record block table". One improment we made over MS-DOS was that we swapped in the RBT chain from disk for a file when a file was open). --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Sep 17 17:38:09 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Scott Kevill wrote: >> Best references are: [...] > > Thanks for the excellent list of references. > > I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I > reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". > > Do you mind if I include your list, with attribution, on a web page about > prior art relating to the patent? You might want to contact Tim Mann, whose work on LDOS may have included some file system interfacing: http://www.tim-mann.org/ldos.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 17 19:52:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:52:17 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> On 09/17/2012 04:18 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/17/12 12:59 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> I mean... honestly other than this auction I've never seen or heard >> ANYTHING about a twiggy Mac before. > > Twiggy macs are real. I had one. Stanford Special Collections has it now > from the Apple Library donation. I don't believe you! This is hearsay! I won't believe it until it's printed in a book! /me runs -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 17 20:05:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:05:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120917180446.H29383@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I don't believe you! This is hearsay! I won't believe it until it's > printed in a book! > > /me runs Not credible until it's on Wikipedia! From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 20:09:25 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:09:25 -0400 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <21D71B5E-FC5E-4C8B-B18D-3EA1B36DF0DB@gmail.com> On Sep 17, 2012, at 18:24, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > I would be *very* surprised if a file name table hash wasn't used > somewhere. Of course, you'd have billions of lines of code to > rummage through--if it said code hadn't been dumpstered ages ago. > Even so, where's the payoff for someone who might know where to look? The payoff is that you can use your SDXC cards with Free Software without paying a tribute to Microsoft on what is essentially a mandated incremental improvement on FAT32. - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 17 20:16:49 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:16:49 -0700 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5057CB81.8080305@jwsss.com> On 9/17/2012 5:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I don't believe you! This is hearsay! I won't believe it until > it's printed in a book! > > > /me runs No, has to be on a web page so you can cite the stupid reference on Wikipedia. Books and actual knowledge don't count there. jim From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Sep 17 20:38:45 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 01:38:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge Message-ID: <1137011872.1802884.1347932325476.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>>>> On the Osborne 1, Lee Felsenstein designed in a connector for >external battery power! When queried about how large the battery >would be, Lee > >>>> Measuring mine (including case), it's about 155mm wide x 115mm deep x >190mm high > >Then it must be a prototype, or custom-made, or unauthorized, because Lee >himself told me Osborne never made a battery, and that there was a deal in >the works to authorize an aftermarket battery, but the deal fell through. I hate to say that Lee was wrong, but I've been able to locate the user manual for the Osborne battery I have. It was called the Powr-Pac(tm). The manual is printed with a tan and blue cover, just like the rest of my Osborne software manuals. Copyright is 1982. The Part Number in the manual is 3F-00128-00. If anyone wants a scan of the manual, email me. Bob From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Sep 17 21:16:57 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:16:57 -0400 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> Hi All, I'm going to post this to the list. I hate getting involved or starting with flame wars / or character bashing but I think I'm pretty nice and don't deserve this. I offer the computer up to the list before scrapping or ebay or whatever. It seems that Tothwolf was nice enough to post to the list my response to him but not his response to me. There's a bunch of you on the list who I've worked with in the past and I'm happy to work with you in the future. To call a spade a spade, it's my computer. I paid for it. I can do what I want with it. I've made it no secret that I'm out of work and I have to pair down my collection. Some I sell, ie Sequent and I made my AMT Dap available on the list, others might have to be parted out (ie non functioning systems). Some might have to go to scrap (ie. Diablo drives that people don't want to ship). I don't like that I have to do this, it's just a fact of life. I have bills to pay and I don't want to lose my house and other things I do value. I'm not saying boo-hoo poor me. I'm just stating a fact. I have lots of beautiful systems that will stay with me for quite some time more and I won't let them go until the very end. All this said, don't beat me up for what I have to do. I think I was being good by offering it up to the list. I paid more then $150 for it but I just don't have an interest in it. WIth all this said, I'm going to coordinate with who wrote me first, second etc. and get this system to a new home. Thanks. Rob On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > I've been out of work longer than that yet you don't see me posting "Give me money or the computer gets it" messages to classiccmp. If Jay were around these days you'd probably have been removed from the list for even posting such stuff. > > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: > >> I'm not going to part it out to sell, I'm going to scrap it. I've had this for a couple of years and now I'm offering it to the list. >> I'm not breaking the bank at $150 but I've been out of work for 6 months and I need to make sure I have money for my bills and family. >> I'll get just under this in scrap value. I'm sorry but I need the money more then I need this machine. >> >> Rob >> >> On Sep 16, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>> >>>> I have a Sequent SE20 with Dynix installed. I also have the terminal to go with it. >>>> It use to boot but I didn't have the password. >>>> Any interst for $150 before I part it out. >>>> Located in New Baltimore, MI. 48047 or I can make it available in Port Huron, MI. 48060 >>>> >>>> Rob >>>> >>>> Quick pic at : http://www.borsuk.info/ebay/sequent.jpg >>> >>> Part out a Sequent SE20? You are kidding, right? As uncommon as these are, parting one out would be very ill-advised and there would be nearly no demand for individual parts. If freight wouldn't be a deal killer, I'd be after this one myself, but I'm nowhere near there and these things are heavy. I generally hunt for older Unix systems for free/open source software porting work, and one of the target platforms I've never been able to test with is Dynix. >>> >> >> Robert Borsuk >> rborsuk at colourfull.com >> >> Colourfull Creations >> http://www.colourfull.com >> >> >> >> > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 17 21:20:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:20:23 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <21D71B5E-FC5E-4C8B-B18D-3EA1B36DF0DB@gmail.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com>, <21D71B5E-FC5E-4C8B-B18D-3EA1B36DF0DB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505777F7.25790.263425C@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Sep 2012 at 21:09, David Riley wrote: >> The payoff is that you can use your SDXC cards with Free > Software without paying a tribute to Microsoft on what is > essentially a mandated incremental improvement on FAT32. Shrug. I suspect that most of us old enough to remember such stuff don't have anything that uses SDXC. --Chuck From scott at kevill.com Mon Sep 17 21:20:37 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:20:37 +0800 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <30A90792-4AAE-4AC5-886A-35F08F0A7BE3@kevill.com> On 18/09/2012, at 5:14 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Scott Kevill wrote: >> Best references are: [...] > > Thanks for the excellent list of references. > > I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". > > Do you mind if I include your list, with attribution, on a web page about prior art relating to the patent? Sure, no problem. Feel free to clean it up or make it more presentable if you wish. TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries does have some discussion on it, so may be worthwhile since it was one of the earliest in 1979. I didn't realise you didn't already have it. TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries (1979) by Harvard C. Pennington - Chapter 6.0, pages 36-51, describes his understanding of the directory and HIT sectors - Chapter 10.0, pages 66-67, describes techniques for recovering deleted files by restoring the files' HIT entries - Chapter 12.0, pages 86-87, discusses corrupted HIT sectors (due to TRSDOS bugs or otherwise) and what to do about them Scott. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 17 21:28:09 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 19:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <20120917150417.G29383@shell.lmi.net> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <505792A3.1070104@brouhaha.com> <20120917150417.G29383@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> Thanks for the excellent list of references. >> I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I >> reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". > > TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" was the first in the series, and I'm > pretty sure that it DID discuss the directory structures. > > Is Harv Pennington locatable? I recall reading something some years ago about his passing. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 17 21:31:24 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 22:31:24 -0400 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5057DCFC.60006@compsys.to> >Eric Smith wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'm sure that if you delved into the mainframe world software (which >> may be hard to do), you'd find similar schemes. Hashing for filename >> lookup wasn't all that uncommon--after all, it was used in just about >> every compiler I ever ran into for symbol table lookup > > However, using it for in-memory symbol table lookup isn't prior art > for using it to reduce disk access for filename lookup in a directory > on a storage medium, unless you can prove that it is an obvious > extension. You and I would probably think it is obvious. > Unfortunately the patent office "obviousness test", which is supposed > to be about a "person having ordinary skill in the art" (PHOSITA), as > actually applied seems only to consider persons that are complete > morons, for whom nothing is obvious. > >> But computer software patents weren't allowed back then, which makes >> the claim of "prior art" hard to make. > > Whether software patents were allowed back then has no bearing on > whether something that can be shown to have been done at the time > qualifies as prior art today. If Eric is correct and prior art from before software patents were allowed is accepted, then this example may be valid: Back in 1967, the first job I had was for a system using a time - shared editor which then allowed the user to submit a batch job into a queue that ran them one at a time - the systems were still very slow back then and memory was very limited. The computer was the CDC 3300. I do not remember the name of the operating system, but essentially it was one batch job along with a multi-user editor which allowed users to create files (programs) which were then submitted to the batch job queue. The lab which supported the system had so many users that the number of files became much larger and a suitable on disk lookup table search algorithm was needed to reduce the time taken to find the the index block on the disk drive which pointed to the actual file label. The algorithm was trivial - add the words in the file name (there were around 10 if I remember back 45 years ago) and divide that sum by the number of blocks assigned to the search table. The best choice of the number of blocks in the search table was a prime number. One of the primes just over 600 was used since each search block held 10 file names. Dividing the sum of the words in the files name by the number of blocks in the search table gave the remainder which was then used as the block number to start the search. A search table of 607 blocks could hold 6070 file names and until the search table was over 80% full (over 4800 files), rarely was more than one block read in the search table as opposed to an average of 240 blocks with a linear search. The penalty was that 127 blocks in a 607 block search table were wasted. Probably, there are better algorithms to produce the hash sum to be divided for the search table on the disk drive. But I doubt that changing the method of producing the hash sum actually changes the algorithm in any significant way. I suspect that the most important detail is that the search table have a prime number as the number of blocks. Initially, the algorithm was written incorrectly and previously used, but now deleted entries were skipped when assigning a new file entry. The table filled up within 2 weeks at that point with about 2 hours warning of the event. I had written a small program which checked all the entries in the table and I pointed out to the manager the impending crisis - which I remember was ignored since he could not believe his code was incorrect. Within an hour of the system being shut down, he had found the bug (one instruction) and it was fixed. A couple of years later, I switched jobs and worked for a time-sharing company which probably purchased a license to run the same software on a CDC 3500. Where proof of the software used could be found at this point, I do not know. If this hashing algorithm qualifies, then send the information along. I jumped into this thread just today and did not follow what started it. Jerome Fine From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 17 21:34:19 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:34:19 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> References: <1347776350.27532.YahooMailNeo@web87701.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: o ok lives in winnipeg canada but kool On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I think this is a response to my posting about a regular meeting in > Manchester (UK), for some reason the subject line got dropped. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > > Sent: 17 September 2012 06:30 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: > > > > ? > > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith wrote: > > > > > On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: > > > > > > Well that's three so far... > > > > > > > >Dave Wade G4UGM > > > >Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > > > >Make that four... > > > > > > Julian. > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 17 21:49:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:49:47 -0600 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> Message-ID: In article <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001 at colourfull.com>, Robert Borsuk writes: > [...] There's a > bunch of you on the list who I've worked with in the past > and I'm happy to work with you in the future. [...] I'm one of those people and I've always been very happy with the business I've done with Robert, both over ebay and in direct email exchange. Robert has been more than generous with me in the trades that we've done (I think it was a true win/win, we both got something we valued more than what we sent to the other person). I've been very satisfied with the equipment I've bought from him, both in terms of prices and shipping. > it's my computer. I paid for it. I can do what I want with it. Amen, brother. Anyone should count themselves lucky that such machines are offered to collectors before being scrapped. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From dave_rowland at btinternet.com Mon Sep 17 12:36:32 2012 From: dave_rowland at btinternet.com (Dave Rowland) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:36:32 +0100 Subject: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? In-Reply-To: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> References: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <084b0a93-ae53-4788-92b8-03d03355aef0@email.android.com> Rob Yes i would be interested. Dave Rob Jarratt wrote: >Recently I was talking with a couple of people in the Manchester area >who >like to collect classic computers. It occurred to me that there may be >enough of us in the area to warrant organising a regular meeting to >talk >about what we are all up to. It would be a totally informal format, >just a >chance to talk to fellow enthusiasts, maybe get some ideas, or pass on >experiences etc. > >We all lead busy lives, so my thought is to make it say once every two >months, either at a pub in central Manchester, or perhaps at some >location >near an exit on the M60. > >Is anyone interested in this idea? > >Regards > >Rob -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From earl at retrobits.com Mon Sep 17 14:02:12 2012 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:02:12 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:25 AM, David Riley wrote: > > Does prior art have to be patented? I'm certainly no lawyer, but I > was under the impression that what matters is that it existed before > the invention claimed, thus rendering the invention non-novel and > thus not valid for a patent. Thus, even though no one has patented > the wheel, you can't get a patent on it (though there are those who > have certainly managed to do so by hoodwinking the patent offices). > > Is my understanding flawed? I'm certainly willing to believe it is. > > I am also not a lawyer, but from pretty much everything I've read on this, your understanding is correct. I believe that prior art does not need to be in the form of a patent. It just needs to show that the invention existed prior to the patent application. The Wikipedia page also seems to support this contention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art - Earl From jonas at otter.se Mon Sep 17 14:05:21 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 21:05:21 +0200 Subject: Microsoft cordless phone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50577471.8030005@otter.se> On 2012-09-17 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > telephones. And doesn't England still have coin-op residential > >electrical service? When I heard this referred to on an old When I was a kid, one of my uncles lived in a council house outside Nottingham. They had a coin-operated gas meter. No central heating and only single glazing, of course, after all this was an English house built sometime not too long after the war ;-). Eventually they were not allowed coal fires either (probably after the Clean Air Act of 1968) so then if you wanted to be warm as well as fed you needed the gas. I think the electricity meter was coin operated as well. Council estates were built to provide housing for the working class. My uncle was reasonably well off, being a civil servant with the local council, but some of the neighbours definitely were not, one saw gardens with uncut grass, full of broken toys and with really unwashed children in, the mother coming out in an nightgown and slippers with a cigarette in her mouth. The reason for the coin operated meters was pretty obvious, just getting the rent paid by those particular neighbours was probably not easy. And I had to learn to count in (rarely pounds) shillings and pence to get by :-) /Jonas From go at ao-cs.com Mon Sep 17 17:50:53 2012 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:50:53 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com>, <505793E6.20700@brouhaha.com> <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5057A94D.6040005@ao-cs.com> Although it wasn't an hierarchical file system, the school-built time-sharing system "OS-3" (Oregon State Open Shop Operating System) which started serving in the late 60s used a hashed-filename directory storage mechanism. With several thousand customers and hundreds of files per user, the average search was just a shade over 1 directory block read. The hash function had been carefully tuned to the length of file name and average number of files per user - it 'could' (though never was) be tuned each night to tweak performance for the next day's use. The directory storage scheme used by OS-3 was fairly conventional in that besides the name, the directory entry contained the full access/permission/usage count, etc. It was loaded and cached in memory when the file was open so the OS didn't need to go back to the disk for every file write or status change. If the files were public, the system saw them in the local cache without having to read the disk. We were VERY CONSCIOUS of disk transfers back then and would work very hard to minimize the number and frequency of disk accesses. With a computer that ran at less than 800kHz and disk transfers measured in 10s of microseconds per word, you really had to keep them minimized. The fairly simple mechanism used was published in an ACM journal of the era, so it was definitely published "prior art." -Gary On 09/17/2012 03:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My point is that we weren't idiots back then and devices were much > slower than they are today. Anything to improve performance would > have been welcome. For example, we briefly played with a filesystem > where allocation maps were kept on a sector for the storage on an > entire cylinder. > > I would be *very* surprised if a file name table hash wasn't used > somewhere. Of course, you'd have billions of lines of code to > rummage through--if it said code hadn't been dumpstered ages ago. > Even so, where's the payoff for someone who might know where to look? > > For example, there were FAT file systems 45 years ago (we didn't > call it a FAT, but rather an RBT for "record block table". One > improment we made over MS-DOS was that we swapped in the RBT chain > from disk for a file when a file was open). > > --Chuck > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 18 01:51:23 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:51:23 +0100 Subject: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? In-Reply-To: <084b0a93-ae53-4788-92b8-03d03355aef0@email.android.com> References: <00f801cd9390$8c0a2060$a41e6120$@ntlworld.com> <084b0a93-ae53-4788-92b8-03d03355aef0@email.android.com> Message-ID: <001201cd956a$05c522d0$114f6870$@ntlworld.com> You are now on my list, that makes a grand total of 6 of us now. Will send email separate to the list to organise a meeting. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Rowland > Sent: 17 September 2012 18:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Meeting for Enthusiasts in the Manchester (UK) Area? > > Rob > > Yes i would be interested. > > Dave > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > >Recently I was talking with a couple of people in the Manchester area > >who like to collect classic computers. It occurred to me that there may > >be enough of us in the area to warrant organising a regular meeting to > >talk about what we are all up to. It would be a totally informal > >format, just a chance to talk to fellow enthusiasts, maybe get some > >ideas, or pass on experiences etc. > > > >We all lead busy lives, so my thought is to make it say once every two > >months, either at a pub in central Manchester, or perhaps at some > >location near an exit on the M60. > > > >Is anyone interested in this idea? > > > >Regards > > > >Rob > > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 02:29:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:29:00 +0100 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <505822BC.30401@gmail.com> On 17/09/2012 20:02, Earl Evans wrote: > On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 9:25 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> Does prior art have to be patented? I'm certainly no lawyer, but I >> was under the impression that what matters is that it existed before >> the invention claimed, thus rendering the invention non-novel and >> thus not valid for a patent. Thus, even though no one has patented >> the wheel, you can't get a patent on it (though there are those who >> have certainly managed to do so by hoodwinking the patent offices). >> >> Is my understanding flawed? I'm certainly willing to believe it is. >> >> I am also not a lawyer, but from pretty much everything I've read on this, > your understanding is correct. I believe that prior art does not need to > be in the form of a patent. It just needs to show that the invention > existed prior to the patent application. But of course otherwise you could patent the wheel... ... athough when reading some software patents you kind of feel thats what they are trying to do > The Wikipedia page also seems to support this contention: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art > > - Earl -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 02:30:51 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:30:51 +0100 Subject: Manchester (UK) meeting In-Reply-To: <01f201cd9514$2090fdb0$61b2f910$@ntlworld.com> References: <01ec01cd950d$b1dda9a0$1598fce0$@ntlworld.com> <68F989A7AB0E4C9B97B0632CF3A6ADA9@G4UGMT41> <01f201cd9514$2090fdb0$61b2f910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5058232B.1060200@gmail.com> On 17/09/2012 21:36, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I might be able to do Friday next week, not the quietest day I know, but > that is the only day I could make next week. > > Regards > > Rob I will be away Friday next week.... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave >> Sent: 17 September 2012 21:04 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: Manchester (UK) meeting >> >> Probably me. How about next week, some where in Manchester city center? >> >> Dave Wade G4UGM >> Illegitimi Non Carborundum >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >>> Sent: 17 September 2012 20:50 >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: >>> >>> >>> I think this is a response to my posting about a regular meeting in >>> Manchester (UK), for some reason the subject line got dropped. >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness >>>> Sent: 17 September 2012 06:30 >>>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>>> Subject: Re: >>>> >>>> ? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 1:19 AM, Julian Smith >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 16/09/2012 00:09, Dave wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well that's three so far... >>>>>> Dave Wade G4UGM >>>>>> Illegitimi Non Carborundum >>>>>> >>>>>> Make that four... >>>>> Julian. >>>>> >>> -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum *** For the Hams on the list three special event stations in Manchester now operational ***** **** GB2012MV, GB2012MS and GB2012MW. See http://GB2012MS.COM/ for links and schedules. *** From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 02:52:44 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:52:44 +0100 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505822BC.30401@gmail.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> <5056E0FE.28715.158660@cclist.sydex.com> <505822BC.30401@gmail.com> Message-ID: Pick used hashes I remember, but I dont know when it started using them for disk file addressing but it has history way back to the 1960's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick_operating_system Dave Caroline From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Sep 18 06:55:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 06:55:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: > On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:53 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 9:35 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> On Sun, 16 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>>> >>>>> I have a Sequent SE20 with Dynix installed. I also have the terminal to go with it. >>>>> It use to boot but I didn't have the password. >>>>> Any interst for $150 before I part it out. >>>>> Located in New Baltimore, MI. 48047 or I can make it available in Port Huron, MI. 48060 >>>>> >>>>> Quick pic at : http://www.borsuk.info/ebay/sequent.jpg >>>> >>>> Part out a Sequent SE20? You are kidding, right? As uncommon as these >>>> are, parting one out would be very ill-advised and there would be >>>> nearly no demand for individual parts. If freight wouldn't be a deal >>>> killer, I'd be after this one myself, but I'm nowhere near there and >>>> these things are heavy. I generally hunt for older Unix systems for >>>> free/open source software porting work, and one of the target >>>> platforms I've never been able to test with is Dynix. >>> >>> I'm not going to part it out to sell, I'm going to scrap it. I've had >>> this for a couple of years and now I'm offering it to the list. I'm >>> not breaking the bank at $150 but I've been out of work for 6 months >>> and I need to make sure I have money for my bills and family. I'll get >>> just under this in scrap value. I'm sorry but I need the money more >>> then I need this machine. >> >> I've been out of work longer than that yet you don't see me posting >> "Give me money or the computer gets it" messages to classiccmp. If Jay >> were around these days you'd probably have been removed from the list >> for even posting such stuff. > > > Hi All, > > I'm going to post this to the list. I hate getting involved or starting > with flame wars / or character bashing but I think I'm pretty nice and > don't deserve this. Character bashing? I did no such thing. I posted your actual response word-for-word right here so everyone can see what you sent me. I also don't top-post, and I'm reformatting the mess you sent. > I offer the computer up to the list before scrapping or ebay or > whatever. No, you said part it out, /implying/ eBay, etc and a much longer time frame. When I responded, but didn't respond with an offer of a wad of money, you attempted to pull a classic "Give me money or the [bunny rabbit|cute puppy|etc] gets it" and I do not take kindly to such "extortion". > It seems that Tothwolf was nice enough to post to the list my response > to him but not his response to me. Your sarcasm has been duly noted but it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There were a number of off-list responses and discussions among various list members regarding your post which you didn't see. Based on those that I saw, I strongly suspect you really /don't/ want to see them, either. The phrase "WTF" was certainly used more than once. > There's a bunch of you on the list who I've worked with in the past and > I'm happy to work with you in the future. Similar, but it might be best to avoid the whole "seniority" thing. While I may have been inactive for a number of years due to a number of factors, I've been around these parts for a very long time myself. > To call a spade a spade, it's my computer. I paid for it. I can do > what I want with it. Indeed. And I too will also call a spade a spade. The computer may be yours with which to do whatever you want, but you known darn well if you had posted your "buy this [rare] machine from me right now or I scrap it" message you'd have gotten some less than kind replies. As I said, I've seen people removed from this list in years past for posting the sort of message you sent me. At the very least it can be considered trolling. To clarify one major point, this is very different from people who end up with large machines that no one actually wants and that they can't house forever (ala free for local pickup, /or/ beer money + shipping costs). Instead, your response was pretty much akin to those late night HSUS infomercials. [I'll gladly give money directly to local non-kill shelters, but I'll be damned if I'll give /any/ money to a fund raising/pr only group that gives nearly nothing to the actual hands-on local groups.] http://www.examiner.com/article/what-is-the-truth-about-the-humane-society-of-the-united-states-hsus > I've made it no secret that I'm out of work and I have to pair down my > collection. Do we need a poll? How about a show of hands? I know for a fact there are a large number of us here on the list who are either unemployed or underemployed. From personal experience, I think the latter may actually be worse. > Some I sell, ie Sequent and I made my AMT Dap available on the list, > others might have to be parted out (ie non functioning systems). Some > might have to go to scrap (ie. Diablo drives that people don't want to > ship). I don't like that I have to do this, it's just a fact of life. > I have bills to pay and I don't want to lose my house and other things I > do value. I'm not saying boo-hoo poor me. I'm just stating a fact. I > have lots of beautiful systems that will stay with me for quite some > time more and I won't let them go until the very end. > All this said, don't beat me up for what I have to do. I think I was > being good by offering it up to the list. I paid more then $150 for it > but I just don't have an interest in it. With all this said, I'm going > to coordinate with who wrote me first, second etc. and get this system > to a new home. You don't have to scrap the machine, period. If you need cash, your other non-destructive option is to sell the more desirable and more readily available stuff from your "collection" and then re-purchase those items when you are on better footing. A lot of list members have done this. For example, is that a SGI system I see in the background of your Sequent photo? On the other hand, trying to tug on people's heart strings by threatening to destroy a unique, functional and irreplaceable system will very much get you the sort of response you got from me. I certainly could have flamed you into oblivion (There are a few here who can vouch for my linguistic abilities and my talent for balancing flame with substance) but because even now I /still/ want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I've tried to keep it strictly matter of fact while explaining my own point of view. I hope someone does claim the system and I certainly hope you find a way to work out your financial troubles. Being unemployed or underemployed /sucks/ and it isn't something I'd wish on someone. Before you sent that reply to me, I forwarded your initial message onto a number of others who aren't active here, so maybe that helped generate some leads for you. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Sep 18 07:01:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 07:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057CB81.8080305@jwsss.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <16F89739-52AD-4ABF-BBE7-518F8BDE8165@gmail.com> <179A5326-41FD-477F-B25F-3DEEDC1F17F5@gmail.com> <1606031403-1347911370-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1665056912-@b4.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5057811C.6030304@atarimuseum.com> <505785A5.7090204@bitsavers.org> <5057C5C1.2000309@neurotica.com> <5057CB81.8080305@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, jim s wrote: > On 9/17/2012 5:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >> I don't believe you! This is hearsay! I won't believe it until it's >> printed in a book! >> >> >> /me runs > > No, has to be on a web page so you can cite the stupid reference on > Wikipedia. Books and actual knowledge don't count there. No, no, no. It has have been discussed in its own book (a couple of pages or a chapter isn't good enough) before it is considered "notable" enough to be covered on Wikipedia. (Yes, this is the view some of the newer "trolls" are trying to push, especially within computing/software, and it is /highly/ disruptive.) The only way to fix this though is for large numbers of people to become involved and push for change to the system. From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 07:23:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:23:57 -0400 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <505777F7.25790.263425C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <5057409E.10777.18B0E85@cclist.sydex.com>, <21D71B5E-FC5E-4C8B-B18D-3EA1B36DF0DB@gmail.com> <505777F7.25790.263425C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Sep 2012 at 21:09, David Riley wrote: > >>> The payoff is that you can use your SDXC cards with Free >> Software without paying a tribute to Microsoft on what is >> essentially a mandated incremental improvement on FAT32. > > Shrug. I suspect that most of us old enough to remember such stuff > don't have anything that uses SDXC. Ordinarily, I'd agree, but I know there are some on this list who keep fairly recent digital cameras. I think it's still too early to say whether SDXC will supplant CompactFlash in the high-end cameras, but there are certainly manufacturers moving in that direction. I suppose "most" is correct. :-) - Dave From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Sep 18 07:30:48 2012 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:30:48 -0400 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? [off topic] In-Reply-To: References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <3260E8C2-F5FE-4492-8675-B2301D30C6FD@colourfull.com> WTF? This was an off list discussion between me and you, why did you have to keep bringing it to the list? To show I'm a bad person? I'm not. If Jay or another administrator wants to remove me because I might part or scrap a machine. Okay. I've seen tons of people say - " Come pick this up or it's in the trash". I've never wanted to kick them from the list. I've always been thankful that they said it was available before tossing. Please stop. Enough is enough. I didn't tug any heart strings, just stating a fact why I'm parting with certain machines. The funny thing about all this is that the machine got interest from someone I'm holding an SGI Pro Iris for. It happened right behind your first message to me and it wasn't because of a "Save the machine or bad Rob's going to scrap it" campaign. Rob [huge message clip] On Sep 18, 2012, at 7:55 AM, Tothwolf wrote: [huge clip - please see previous post] > I certainly could have flamed you into oblivion (There are a few here who can vouch for my linguistic abilities and my talent for balancing flame with substance) but because even now I /still/ want to give you the benefit of the doubt, I've tried to keep it strictly matter of fact while explaining my own point of view. > > I hope someone does claim the system and I certainly hope you find a way to work out your financial troubles. Being unemployed or underemployed /sucks/ and it isn't something I'd wish on someone. Before you sent that reply to me, I forwarded your initial message onto a number of others who aren't active here, so maybe that helped generate some leads for you. > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 08:54:03 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 06:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1347976443.77679.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I would try to get a manual for Trackcess or Super Utility Plus. Both of those should have indexes that document the TRS-DOS directory format. There were several articles in 80-Micro as well, that had to do with undeleting files using Super-Zap. Al From: Eric Smith So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS? file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other? than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 08:59:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 06:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems Message-ID: <1347976784.50631.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Any out there? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 18 09:01:55 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <1347976443.77679.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1347976443.77679.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > From: Eric Smith > > So my question is, are there any published works documenting the TRS-DOS? > file system on-disk format, especially the use of the HIT table, other? > > than "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries" by H. C. Pennington? TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded and Other Mysteries, 1982, IJG Inc. Section 2.5 describes the Hash Index Table. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:19:33 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:19:33 +0100 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 September 2012 03:23, Richard Lynch wrote: > One problem solved ? one of the boards has a set of eight 2716s on it with > ?BASIC V3.0? written on the first one. The CPU board has four more with > what I hope is some form of an OS that will get me to a prompt and let me go > to BASIC?s location in memory. Almost all the chips are socketed on all the > boards so I?m in the process of testing and reseating them. Do you know that you're using superscript-1 for an apostrophe and superscript-2 and superscript-3 for open and close quotes? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 10:02:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Psion PC 640 Message-ID: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Im looking at a picture of one, albeit small, but I see nothing approaching the size of a crt controller. Did the MicroAngelo have one? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 18 10:48:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:48:25 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com>, <505777F7.25790.263425C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <50583559.32063.BD28C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2012 at 8:23, David Riley wrote: > I suppose "most" is correct. :-) I thought about finding old mainframe code using the hash scheme and the problem dawned on me that there may be "user" manuals that give functional advice on use, but internals manuals were very rare outside of groups that actually did the code maintenance. In particular, I remember the Zodiac IMS (Internal Maintenance Specification) for a project that I worked on was easily 7 inches thick and described every table and routine in the OS. Similar ones were put out for the data management system and communications system. And who remembers Zodiac, much less has working code for it? There was a guy looking for information (back in the 70s, UBS tried to deploy it) in 2006. I didn't run across his message until 2012 and responded, but by then he'd already published his paper. But I could have told him tons about it, had I known he was looking--but it would all have been from memory. Any printed documentation is probably long, long gone. We didn't have bitsavers 40 years ago... --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Sep 18 11:17:40 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:17:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: <3260E8C2-F5FE-4492-8675-B2301D30C6FD@colourfull.com> References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> <3260E8C2-F5FE-4492-8675-B2301D30C6FD@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Robert Borsuk wrote: > On Sep 18, 2012, at 7:55 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > [huge clip - please see previous post] >> I certainly could have flamed you into oblivion (There are a few here >> who can vouch for my linguistic abilities and my talent for balancing >> flame with substance) but because even now I /still/ want to give you >> the benefit of the doubt, I've tried to keep it strictly matter of fact >> while explaining my own point of view. >> >> I hope someone does claim the system and I certainly hope you find a >> way to work out your financial troubles. Being unemployed or >> underemployed /sucks/ and it isn't something I'd wish on someone. >> Before you sent that reply to me, I forwarded your initial message onto >> a number of others who aren't active here, so maybe that helped >> generate some leads for you. > > WTF? This was an off list discussion between me and you, why did you > have to keep bringing it to the list? It wasn't off-list. I replied to the message you sent the list here. The very message in which you tried to paint me out to be a bad guy because I called you out. Don't try playing the victim, it won't work. You wrote what you wrote: >>> "It seems that Tothwolf was nice enough to post to the list my >>> response to him but not his response to me." > To show I'm a bad person? I'm not. I never said you were, however I don't like it when people try to play these games. Playing the emotional card isn't going to make me want to buy something from you just because you go from "parting out" to saying that you are going to "scrap" it: >>> "I'm not going to part it out to sell, I'm going to scrap it." As I said before, if it wasn't such a big heavy thing, I'd rather be interested in it, but freight would be killer. > If Jay or another administrator wants to remove me because I might part > or scrap a machine. Okay. I've seen tons of people say - " Come pick > this up or it's in the trash". I've never wanted to kick them from the > list. I've always been thankful that they said it was available before > tossing. There in lies the difference. Those messages aren't saying "I need $150 right now or I part the machine out/send it to the scrappers". Those people aren't trying to play on people's emotional attachment to these machines. Maybe you don't (or didn't want to) see the dividing line of how your message (and reply to me) differs from the typical offer to the list, but there /is/ a major difference, which by now should be pretty obvious. > Please stop. Enough is enough. I didn't tug any heart strings, just > stating a fact why I'm parting with certain machines. The funny thing > about all this is that the machine got interest from someone I'm holding > an SGI Pro Iris for. It happened right behind your first message to me > and it wasn't because of a "Save the machine or bad Rob's going to scrap > it" campaign. I'm glad someone with the means to transport the machine is going to be able to claim it. As I said before, you are going about this wrong. If you are really hard up for funds, rather than take $50 in scrap for a machine such as this, the other option is pulling and selling desirable yet not too "rare" to be unobtainable items from ones collection and then re-purchasing those items again later. Not doing so will lead to others (such as myself) challenging you on stuff such as your stated intention to me that you were going to scrap the Sequent. I've said what I felt I needed to say in the previous message, and given that you clipped my entire reply above, I'm pretty sure I got my point across, so as far as I'm concerned this thread is -done-. EOT From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 18 11:23:26 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:23:26 -0700 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> <3260E8C2-F5FE-4492-8675-B2301D30C6FD@colourfull.com> Message-ID: > I've said what I felt I needed to say in the previous message, and given that > you clipped my entire reply above, I'm pretty sure I got my point across, so as > far as I'm concerned this thread is -done-. > Thank ! I just hope it holds out to be true that this thread is actually -done-. That said, I do hope that someone is able to rescue this machine. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 18 11:24:48 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:24:48 -0700 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? In-Reply-To: <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> References: <8A7CABB0-76F4-47FA-B29D-054EE984D7EC@colourfull.com> <7946AC2A-7910-4276-9302-2252F36C3001@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <5058A050.1040102@bitsavers.org> On 9/17/12 7:16 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Some might have to go to scrap (ie. Diablo drives that people don't want to ship). > Talk to Rich Alderson or Ian King at LCM before scrapping any Diablo drives. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 18 11:35:11 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:35:11 -0400 Subject: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems In-Reply-To: <1347976784.50631.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347976784.50631.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5058A2BF.1000106@atarimuseum.com> Let me know if you find any, I've been looking for any Onyx/Corvus based machines myself..... Chris Tofu wrote: > Any out there? > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 18 11:46:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <1347976443.77679.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1347976443.77679.YahooMailNeo@web160603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120918094445.E55279@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Al Hartman wrote: > I would try to get a manual for Trackcess or Super Utility Plus. Both of > those should have indexes that document the TRS-DOS directory format. I think that it was spelled "Trakcess"? by Roxton Baker? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 11:56:59 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:56:59 +0100 Subject: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 18 September 2012 16:02, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Im looking at a picture of one, albeit small, but I see nothing approaching the size of a crt controller. Did the MicroAngelo have one? *Psion* PC? Do you mean the PDA manufacturer? If so, what on Earth is a Psion PC? I'm aware of the Organizer, Organizer II, MC200/400/600, Series 3/3a/3c/3mx, 5/5mx, netBook, Series 7, their industrial handhelds and some small-form-factor variants of the 3 and 5, but that's about it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 18 12:20:15 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:20:15 -0700 Subject: Selenar Graphics II LA-36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I want to express my thanks to the list, especially Mike Alexander, Tony Duell, Richard (Direct 3D Graphics Pipeline), and Rod Smallwood for hints about getting the LA36 with the Selanar Graphics controller working. The two missing dots on printing were due to failed solenoids in the printhead. The drivers were doing what they should, but, the solenoids weren't firing. Checking the resistance of the solenoids showed them to have much lower resistance than the other solenoids. Fortunately I have a spare printhead from a scrap Tektronix-badged LA35 (Tek 4641), so I pulled and tested it, and all seven solenoids fire (thanks, Tony, for the bench test procedure) properly. I put this printhead in the LA36, following the printhead replacement procedure in the maintenance manual (thanks, Mike for the leads on finding scans), so that it was properly aligned. I double-checked everything and powered it up, and behold -- fully formed characters! The graphics from the Selanar board also look much better (done by hand-typing in graphics commands with the terminal in local mode). Thanks to Rod for the pointer to the Byte Magazine article on the Graphics II board, which had some of the command set in it. The next step is figuring out how to talk to this thing through RS-232 serial. The Selanar board has a DB-25F connector on it that I assume is RS-232. There is also a current loop interface on the board, using the same pinout as the original DEC controller board. I can tell because there is a cable that was plugged into this connector that has a DEC-style mate-n-lock connector on the end for connecting to the current loop interface on some DEC machine. There are a lot of jumpers on the Selanar board, and I'm wondering if they configure whether the serial interface is current loop or RS-232 on the DB-25. Without docs on the Selanar Graphics II board, knowing how to set them is going to be a challenge. I think it's just going to be a matter of scoping out signals and figuring out which interface is active, then using whichever is. I am assuming its likely be the current loop because of the cable already being there. If so, I'll have to build/buy a current loop to RS-232 converter if that is the case, but that isn't that big of a deal. Still would like to find anyone that might have a manual for the Selanar Graphics II board for the LA-36. Rick Bensene From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 13:00:31 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Liam Proven On 18 September 2012 16:02, Chris Tofu wrote: > Im looking at a picture of one, albeit small, but I see nothing approaching the size of a crt controller. Did the MicroAngelo have one? *Psion* PC? Do you mean the PDA manufacturer? If so, what on Earth is a Psion PC? I'm aware of the Organizer, Organizer II, MC200/400/600, Series 3/3a/3c/3mx, 5/5mx, netBook, Series 7, their industrial handhelds and some small-form-factor variants of the 3 and 5, but that's about it. C: Whoops! ?It's a graphics card for IBM PCs. 640 x 480 x 16 of 4096. Memory mapped i/o (?). What's doing the mapping. ?They also sold the MicroAngelo s100 board. The oldies could tell you about that. ?I want one. I want both. I had my non-functioning Psion HC100 out last night. I haven't done a single thing w/it. Had it for over a year. Pristine condition. I'm very proud of it :) Thanks for your tender concern for the accuracy of my posts. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 13:01:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems In-Reply-To: <5058A2BF.1000106@atarimuseum.com> References: <1347976784.50631.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5058A2BF.1000106@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1347991281.49007.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:35 PM Subject: Re: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems Let me know if you find any, I've been looking for any Onyx/Corvus based machines myself... C: Why pray tell? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 13:08:22 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:08:22 +0100 Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 18 September 2012 19:00, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Liam Proven > > On 18 September 2012 16:02, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Im looking at a picture of one, albeit small, but I see nothing approaching the size of a crt controller. Did the MicroAngelo have one? > > *Psion* PC? Do you mean the PDA manufacturer? If so, what on Earth is > a Psion PC? I'm aware of the Organizer, Organizer II, MC200/400/600, > Series 3/3a/3c/3mx, 5/5mx, netBook, Series 7, their industrial > handhelds and some small-form-factor variants of the 3 and 5, but > that's about it. > > C: Whoops! > > It's a graphics card for IBM PCs. 640 x 480 x 16 of 4096. Memory mapped i/o (?). What's doing the mapping. > > They also sold the MicroAngelo s100 board. The oldies could tell you about that. > > I want one. I want both. > > I had my non-functioning Psion HC100 out last night. I haven't done a single thing w/it. Had it for over a year. Pristine condition. I'm very proud of it :) > > Thanks for your tender concern for the accuracy of my posts. I was just mystified, that's all. What, by the way, is with your quoting? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 18 13:16:05 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:16:05 -0400 Subject: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems In-Reply-To: <1347991281.49007.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347976784.50631.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5058A2BF.1000106@atarimuseum.com> <1347991281.49007.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5058BA65.2050405@atarimuseum.com> I collect Corvus equipment (as well as Mindset) and I've been looking for an Onyx machine that bears Corvus on it when they bought the company. I'm still also searching for the elusive Corvus 386 file server as well, though it may have only been a promo unit and they never went further, but Infoworld said that Corvus would be the first computer maker to use the new 386 chip in a server. Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ________________________________ > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:35 PM > Subject: Re: Onyx and Monroe 80186 based systems > > Let me know if you find any, I've been looking for any Onyx/Corvus based machines myself... > > C: Why pray tell? > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 13:47:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Liam Proven I was just mystified, that's all. C: O don't lie. What, by the way, is with your quoting? C: I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - Byte January 1984, p.8 From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Sep 18 14:09:38 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:09:38 +0200 Subject: WANG PC-XC2/2 Software? Message-ID: <20120918190938.GA58727@beast.freibergnet.de> Hi, a friend of mine got a Wang PC-XC2/2 lately. We found out that the computer itself is still working, even the Display. Unfortunately the contents of the keyboard are pretty much rotten, he is in the proces of restoring the keyboard to a working state... He now suches some Bootdisk , this PC has only two 5,25" Floppy drives. There semms nothing appropriate on bitsavers, where else to look? Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 14:19:40 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:19:40 +0200 Subject: Sequent SE20 any interest? Message-ID: Hello, what Diablo drive do you have? I'm searching for drives (fixed or cartridges) for a Data General (SMD or custom interface) and for a PDP (SMD / SDI interface). If you have some drives, please contact me before they go to the scrap. Thanks Andrea > Some might have to go to scrap (ie. Diablo drives that people don't want to ship). From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 18 14:52:45 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Liam Proven > > I was just mystified, that's all. > > C:\DERP> O don't lie. > > What, by the way, is with your quoting? > > C:\DERP> I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - > Byte January 1984, p.8 > He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental disorder. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From doc at vaxen.net Tue Sep 18 15:03:28 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:03:28 -0500 Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5058D390.5070601@vaxen.net> On 9/18/12 2:52 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> From: Liam Proven >> >> I was just mystified, that's all. >> >> C:\DERP> O don't lie. >> >> What, by the way, is with your quoting? >> >> C:\DERP> I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - >> Byte January 1984, p.8 >> > > He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental > disorder. Gene, just because the Troll Kibble was on sale doesn't mean you need to feed him... Doc From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 15:08:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1347998899.2308.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental disorder. g. C: Despite having numerous mental disorders, I still don't understand the question. I don't think there's anything wrong w/my quoting. The issue may be w/Yahoo. But it's all just speculation at this point. ?Why do stupid people waste time responding to threads w/nothing but stupidity??? You're cluttering up the list. Why do the mentally deranged ask why or if someone else is deranged??? It's all given, no? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 15:33:49 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:33:49 +0100 Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 18 September 2012 19:47, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Liam Proven > > I was just mystified, that's all. > > C: O don't lie. WTF? What the blazes are you talking about, and how dare you accuse me of lying? > What, by the way, is with your quoting? > > C: I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - Byte January 1984, p.8 Your quoting is improperly formatted, making it rather hard to follow. But by this point I am favouring Gene's interpretation, that you are possibly taking the mickey here. I know a bloke called Chris Tofu from the British goth scene, but he has no interest in vintage computers that I know of. The horrible thought arises that you are the "Chris M" who drove me to distraction privately emailing me poor-quality, ill-considered christian evangelism some months ago. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 18 15:36:18 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1347998899.2308.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347998899.2308.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201209182036.QAA09570@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental >> disorder. > C: Despite having numerous mental disorders, I still don't understand > the question. I don't think there's anything wrong w/my quoting. Trollish ways of putting it aside, you _do_ use a highly unconventional quote-and-response style. I also find it remarkably difficult to read; I have, on multiple occasions, started to wade through one of your list messages, only to give up a few lines in because it's so hard to make sense of your quoting style (which I manually converted to something more conventional in the quote above). Or do you mean you have trouble seeing any difference between the quoting style you use and the quoting style most of the rest of the list uses? In that case, I doubt there's much I can say that will be of any use, since your perception of text and mine are so different there's not much common ground to base a discussion on. (I could see this reasonably being the case if, for example, you are blind and use a speech synth to read mail, and it doesn't pronounce the conventional quoting markers....) > The issue may be w/Yahoo. Could be, for all I know, though I can't see that that has any relevance; whether you choose to do it by the way you edit text or by your choice of software proxy to do so for you, it's still your choice. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Sep 18 15:52:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:52:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 September 2012 19:00, Chris Tofu wrote: >> From: Liam Proven >> >> On 18 September 2012 16:02, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> Im looking at a picture of one, albeit small, but I see nothing approaching the size of a crt controller. Did the MicroAngelo have one? >> >> *Psion* PC? Do you mean the PDA manufacturer? If so, what on Earth is >> a Psion PC? I'm aware of the Organizer, Organizer II, MC200/400/600, >> Series 3/3a/3c/3mx, 5/5mx, netBook, Series 7, their industrial >> handhelds and some small-form-factor variants of the 3 and 5, but >> that's about it. >> >> C: Whoops! >> >> It's a graphics card for IBM PCs. 640 x 480 x 16 of 4096. Memory mapped i/o (?). What's doing the mapping. >> >> They also sold the MicroAngelo s100 board. The oldies could tell you about that. >> >> I want one. I want both. >> >> I had my non-functioning Psion HC100 out last night. I haven't done a single thing w/it. Had it for over a year. Pristine condition. I'm very proud of it :) >> >> Thanks for your tender concern for the accuracy of my posts. > > I was just mystified, that's all. > > What, by the way, is with your quoting? I've been wondering the exact same thing. The 'C:' quoting instead of the standard '>' breaks the display of flowed text in my client. http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3676 From vrs at msn.com Tue Sep 18 16:05:01 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:05:01 -0700 Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "geneb": Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:52 PM > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C:\DERP> I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - >> Byte January 1984, p.8 > > He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental > disorder. I had assumed he's reading his email in HTML or some client that uses color to indicate quoting. Then when it arrives here there's no color, leaving nothing but that C: to mark his stuff. Depending on how he handles line wraps, that would also explain why there's only one C: on the first line of each segment he writes. Or, he could be deliberately using a difficult-to-read style to troll us. In which case, he's succeeded. Vince From auringer at tds.net Tue Sep 18 16:47:36 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:47:36 -0500 Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I know a bloke called Chris Tofu from the British goth scene, but he > has no interest in vintage computers that I know of. The horrible > thought arises that you are the "Chris M" who drove me to distraction > privately emailing me poor-quality, ill-considered christian > evangelism some months ago. He did reintroduce himself: Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 15:47:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris Tofu Subject: looking for insights leading to the acquisition of Intel Multibusboxen To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" formerly known as chrism3667 at yahoo.com I need help. I really need help. I'm so in straits I'm watching Sara Mclachlan vids. Yeah I won't be denied. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 17:14:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 Message-ID: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im looking for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded itself recently and no longer inserts the conventional >. Sorry I refuse to do that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I saw an Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never seemed unreadable to me. ------------------------------ On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 2:05 PM PDT Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >From: "geneb": Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:52 PM >> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C:\DERP> I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - >> Byte January 1984, p.8 >> >> He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental disorder. > >I had assumed he's reading his email in HTML or some client that uses color to indicate quoting. Then when it arrives here there's no color, leaving nothing but that C: to mark his stuff. Depending on how he handles line wraps, that would also explain why there's only one C: on the first line of each segment he writes. > >Or, he could be deliberately using a difficult-to-read style to troll us. >In which case, he's succeeded. > > Vince > From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 18:35:27 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:35:27 -0500 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I see that now - I'm not sure why the normal punctuation that I wrote was changed like that (let's see if the two apostrophes in this email stay the same) On 9/18/12 9:19 AM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > On 17 September 2012 03:23, Richard Lynch wrote: >> One problem solved ? one of the boards has a set of eight 2716s on it with >> ?BASIC V3.0? written on the first one. The CPU board has four more with >> what I hope is some form of an OS that will get me to a prompt and let me go >> to BASIC?s location in memory. Almost all the chips are socketed on all the >> boards so I?m in the process of testing and reseating them. > > Do you know that you're using superscript-1 for an apostrophe and > superscript-2 and superscript-3 for open and close quotes? From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 20:52:44 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 02:52:44 +0100 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 September 2012 00:35, Richard Lynch wrote: > I see that now - I'm not sure why the normal punctuation that I wrote was > changed like that (let's see if the two apostrophes in this email stay the > same) Nope, they looked all right. You top-quoted, though. :?P -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 18 20:54:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:54:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120918185017.X71623@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Richard Lynch wrote: > I see that now - I'm not sure why the normal punctuation that I wrote was > changed like that (let's see if the two apostrophes in this email stay the > same) Did your original message have "left" and "right" quotation marks? (there ain't no sech thing in ASCII) If YOUR software supports them, then the same codes that your software uses for them will show up as something else in other software. You might not even have asked for such, but some mail clients "do you favors", and convert double quotes into "left double quote" and "right double quote", which are then incomprehensible to the next software down the line, and it'll misinterpret them into something bizarre, such as superscript 2 and 3. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 18 22:06:09 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:06:09 -0400 Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge In-Reply-To: <1137011872.1802884.1347932325476.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1137011872.1802884.1347932325476.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <505936A1.5010307@snarc.net> >>>> Measuring mine (including case), it's about 155mm wide x 115mm deep x >190mm high >>> Then it must be a prototype, or custom-made, or unauthorized, because Lee himself told me Osborne never made a battery, and that there was a deal in the works to authorize an aftermarket battery, but the deal fell through. >> I hate to say that Lee was wrong, but I've been able to locate the user manual for the Osborne battery I have. It was called the Powr-Pac(tm). The manual is printed with a tan and blue cover, just like the rest of my Osborne software manuals. Copyright is 1982. The Part Number in the manual is 3F-00128-00. If anyone wants a scan of the manual, email me. Bob Hmm ... that is very, very interesting indeed!! Please send me a scan of this. From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Tue Sep 18 23:36:59 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:36:59 -0500 Subject: Need software for Chromatics CG Series computer In-Reply-To: <20120918185017.X71623@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 9/18/12 8:54 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Richard Lynch wrote: >> I see that now - I'm not sure why the normal punctuation that I wrote was >> changed like that (let's see if the two apostrophes in this email stay the >> same) > > Did your original message have "left" and "right" quotation marks? > (there ain't no sech thing in ASCII) > If YOUR software supports them, then the same codes that your software > uses for them will show up as something else in other software. You might > not even have asked for such, but some mail clients "do you favors", and > convert double quotes into "left double quote" and "right double quote", > which are then incomprehensible to the next software down the line, and > it'll misinterpret them into something bizarre, such as superscript 2 and > 3. > OK, brand new emails in Entourage for Mac 2008 have those unsupported marks, but replying to an existing post like this does not. I'll just have to be careful in the future making new posts. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 19 07:51:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 05:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <5058D390.5070601@vaxen.net> References: <1347980557.37603.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347991231.96741.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1347994029.27833.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5058D390.5070601@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 9/18/12 2:52 PM, geneb wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> From: Liam Proven >>> >>> I was just mystified, that's all. >>> >>> C:\DERP> O don't lie. >>> >>> What, by the way, is with your quoting? >>> >>> C:\DERP> I don't understand the question. If it's "what am I quoting?" - >>> Byte January 1984, p.8 >>> >> >> He's politely asking why you quote replies like you've got a mental >> disorder. > > > Gene, just because the Troll Kibble was on sale doesn't mean you need to > feed him... > > Sorry Doc, it's a weakness. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 19 08:04:39 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 06:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im looking > for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded itself > recently and no longer inserts the conventional >. Sorry I refuse to do > that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I saw an > Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently > necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never I call bullshit. Every post you've quoted (dating back at least 6+ months) has had the same, completely unfathomable quoting style. You've been called on it before. Nobody else on this list that uses Yahoo has an issue with quoting properly. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 19 11:08:14 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im >> looking for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded >> itself recently and no longer inserts the conventional >. Sorry I >> refuse to do that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I >> saw an Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently >> necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never > > I call bullshit. Every post you've quoted (dating back at least 6+ > months) has had the same, completely unfathomable quoting style. > You've been called on it before. Nobody else on this list that uses > Yahoo has an issue with quoting properly. Yahoo did make a lot of changes, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. That said, I have to agree that no one else that I know who uses Yahoo's email has had this issue. Perhaps Chris accidentally set a non-standard quoting character in the preferences? Yahoo's web interface likely prettifies/colorizes/indents quoted text, so the quoting itself would be hidden from view. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 19 11:47:54 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:47:54 +0200 Subject: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay Message-ID: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> I know it's a plug and yes I'm shameless, but.. I've put some HP plotters and classic calcs (non hp) on ebay http://myworld.ebay.nl/dr_emiel -Rik From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 11:52:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:52:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348073575.5297.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: geneb On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im looking for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded itself recently and no longer inserts the conventional >. Sorry I refuse to do that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I saw an Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never I call bullshit.? Every post you've quoted (dating back at least 6+ months) has had the same, completely unfathomable quoting style.? You've been called on it before.? Nobody else on this list that uses Yahoo has an issue with quoting properly. g. C: Who's "called me on it"??? Cite your reference please (and if you really want a load of b.s. - ) ?Besides, if I were disposed to sit there and delete the arrows from EACH AND EVERY LINE, it's my prerogative. Don't tell me how to post. ?Do you think before you post anything??? Do you REALLY BELIEVE I delete the arrows from every line??!! Do you really believe I do that (it's the only possibility other then what I'm stating is true), just to be a pain??!! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 12:03:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348074196.77260.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >________________________________ > From: Tothwolf > >Yahoo did make a lot of changes, so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. That said, I have to agree that no one else that I know who uses Yahoo's email has had this issue. Perhaps Chris accidentally set a non-standard quoting character in the preferences? Yahoo's web interface likely prettifies/colorizes/indents quoted text, so the quoting itself would be hidden from view. > >C: I changed one setting under "Options" ("When replying & forwarding:Quote the text of the original message"). Either it takes time to kick in, or it won't solve the problem. I'm open to suggestions. But, and as I'm being criticized for improper etiquette, wouldn't it make the most sense for drama queens like Liam to issue healthy (or unhealthy) critiques offlist??? He accuses me of evangelizing, which isn't exactly accurate, but whatever the case (and we yet still do enjoy freedoms here in the US), we did have this back and forth for over a week, after which he told me never to e-mail him again - then I find yet another reply sitting in my spam folder I think it was. His sending these uber-retarded atheist cartoons shouldn't have been looked on as him trying to "evangelize" me into atheism (LOL LOL LOL), should it???. Then there was his accusing me of defecating on dinner tables in posh London town homes. I mean get real. Learn to give and take in this life. Grown up. > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 12:05:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay In-Reply-To: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1348074303.33752.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> >________________________________ > From: Rik Bos > >I know it's a plug and yes I'm shameless, but.. > >I've put some HP plotters and classic calcs (non hp) on ebay > >http://myworld.ebay.nl/dr_emiel > >C: I have absolutely no problem w/such shameless plugs. I love plotters. But I'll recommend you post actual links to individual auctions. It doesn't matter to me in this case, because despite my love, it's not large enough to ship from Germany :) > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 12:23:27 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1348074196.77260.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348074196.77260.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348075407.10511.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> this is a test From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 12:39:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640 In-Reply-To: <1348075407.10511.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348074196.77260.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348075407.10511.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348076387.54021.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chris Tofu this is a test this is another test From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 19 12:41:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hulk quoting style [Re: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640] In-Reply-To: <1348073575.5297.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348073575.5297.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201209191741.NAA14215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >?Besides, if I were disposed to sit there and delete the arrows from > EACH AND EVERY LINE, it's my prerogative. Don't tell me how to post. We're not telling you how to post. We're telling you how to post in order to get us to actually pay attention to what you say. Of course, that's assuming you really are "looking for responses to sometimes obscure queries", as you put it. Rather than, say, trolling, a theory which is getting more plausible to me with each post from you. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 19 12:59:33 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:59:33 +0200 Subject: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay In-Reply-To: <1348074303.33752.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> <1348074303.33752.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002701cd9690$8997dae0$9cc790a0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Chris Tofu > Verzonden: woensdag 19 september 2012 19:05 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Rik Bos > > > >I know it's a plug and yes I'm shameless, but.. > > > >I've put some HP plotters and classic calcs (non hp) on ebay > > > >http://myworld.ebay.nl/dr_emiel > > > >C: I have absolutely no problem w/such shameless plugs. I love plotters. But I'll > recommend you post actual links to individual auctions. It doesn't matter to me > in this case, because despite my love, it's not large enough to ship from > Germany :) > > > > The Netherlands ! The guys who owned Nieuw-Amsterdam before it was named New York.. Itemsnumbers: 370653116448 370653116449 370653116921 370653117111 ;-P From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 13:06:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IT'S NOT MY STYLE Re: Hulk quoting style [Re: I meant Scion PC 640 was Re: Psion PC 640] In-Reply-To: <201209191741.NAA14215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348006497.72594.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348073575.5297.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <201209191741.NAA14215@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1348077971.59342.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Mouse >?Besides, if I were disposed to sit there and delete the arrows from > EACH AND EVERY LINE, it's my prerogative.? Don't tell me how to post. We're not telling you how to post. We're telling you how to post in order to get us to actually pay attention to what you say. Of course, that's assuming you really are "looking for responses to sometimes obscure queries", as you put it.? Rather than, say, trolling, a theory which is getting more plausible to me with each post from you. C: Believe whatever you want. But to believe that I intentionally erase the arrows is beyond insane. ???? I don't know how many times I have to say I'm not going to intentionally make my posts hard to read, but my stating "don't tell me how to post" is a response to the bickering that seems to accompany nearly everything I do (or *don't do*). I changed the setting, and you saw the results (EVERYTHING followed arrows), so I had to change it back. There's nothing I can do at this point, except contact Yahoo maybe. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 13:10:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay In-Reply-To: <002701cd9690$8997dae0$9cc790a0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> <1348074303.33752.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002701cd9690$8997dae0$9cc790a0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1348078255.72577.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Rik Bos > in this case, because despite my love, it's not large enough to ship from > Germany :) The Netherlands ! The guys who owned Nieuw-Amsterdam before it was named New York.. C: Whoops. Maybe Dutch has a resemblance to German. Don't know what made me assume that. ? Those guys can buy it back for all I care. Itemsnumbers: 370653116448 370653116449 370653116921 370653117111 C: Actual links are still advisable (now here I go correcting everything I don't like!). From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Sep 19 13:18:47 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:18:47 +0100 Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505A0C87.8070107@wickensonline.co.uk> Just to let you guys know that I've put PPC640 disk images online: Disk 1 - DOS 3.3 + Utilities/Organiser Disk 2 - Mirror 2 Communications Software you can find them here: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/ppc640/ Regards, Mark. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 13:26:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:26:33 -0400 Subject: Shameless plug: HP plotters on epay In-Reply-To: <1348078255.72577.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <002201cd9686$87724750$9656d5f0$@xs4all.nl> <1348074303.33752.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <002701cd9690$8997dae0$9cc790a0$@xs4all.nl> <1348078255.72577.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <898C0569-8A59-432B-A7AE-58926B53BD4F@gmail.com> On Sep 19, 2012, at 2:10 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Rik Bos > >> in this case, because despite my love, it's not large enough to ship from >> Germany :) > > The Netherlands ! > The guys who owned Nieuw-Amsterdam before it was named New York.. > > C: Whoops. Maybe Dutch has a resemblance to German. Don't know what made me assume that. Dutch does bear a resemblance to German (all those extra vowels usually give it away, though). However, the .nl domain should be a dead giveaway. :-) - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 15:09:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Origins of term "laptop" computer was Re: Bill Moggridge In-Reply-To: <505936A1.5010307@snarc.net> References: <1137011872.1802884.1347932325476.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <505936A1.5010307@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20120919125024.R94806@shell.lmi.net> > I hate to say that Lee was wrong, but I've been able to locate the > user manual for the Osborne battery I have. It was called the > Powr-Pac(tm). The manual is printed with a tan and blue cover, just like > the rest of my Osborne software manuals. Copyright is 1982. The Part > Number in the manual is 3F-00128-00. If anyone wants a scan of the > manual, email me. Bob More than a few times, Adam Osborne, and Osborne Computer, made public/published statements about availability of computers, peripherals, accessories, and software that did not yet exist. When the company went under, completion of some of those items has been placed "on hold". Indefinitely. Many of those items were eventually released as competing products by third parties. Since the designer refutes the existence, is there any reason not to assume that the one being discussed might be a third party product? or a prototype? Is there any reason to assume that the announcement of the battery in the owner's manual was not an "Osbiorne announcement" (premature)? For example, Adam stated that they had a program that would read and write every disk format in existence. At Computer Faire, I was heckled by an "Osborne dealer" who claimed that it existed, although she did admit that she hadn't seen it, nor received her copy yet. All that I could say to that impossible claim was, "May we all live so long." Sho'nuff, a week later, we we contacted by Osborne Computer to discuss licensing XenoCopy for them to sell. (for those not familiar, there are about 2500 different soft-sectored formats, and each one needs to be analyzed and sometimes additional code written. XenoCopy handles 400 of them. I would be especially fascinated how the Osborne software would handle hard sectored, GCR, 100 TPI, etc. formats!) In spite of his overzealousness in premature announcements of products, I really liked Adam, and the world is a less colorful and exciting place without him. I knew him before and after Osborne Computer (his books were good, the external hard disks were a flop, and his "paperback Software" lawsuit loss was the start of "taste and smell" copyright. R.I.P. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 15:12:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:12:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module Message-ID: Does anyone have a dump (in any sane format [1]) of the Peripheral Control II (PC-2, whatever) ROM module for the HP9820 calculator? Not PC-1, which I already have. Last time I looked, it wasn't included with the HP9800e emulator. Also looking for dumps of the DataComm 2 and DataComm 3 moduels for the HP9830 (I have DataComm 1), but these are much less important at the momnet. [1] Plain binary, Intel Hex, List of octal numbers (as used by HP9800e), BPNF, Motorola S record, whatever. Thanks in advance ofr any help -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:22:14 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:22:14 -0500 Subject: Amstard PPC640D - boot idsk? In-Reply-To: <20120730203829.Y29234@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120730203829.Y29234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <505A3786.4040002@gmail.com> On 08/01/2012 12:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Does that mean that the correct way to pronounce the verisons are 'three - >> thirty' and 'three - thirty one'? > > THAT is how they are internally stored! > To avoid confusion and miscommunication, I usually call it "Three point > three zero" and "three point three one" That's how I've always heard them in the UK, although I think that UKians would be more likely to say 'oh' instead of 'zero'. I think the *only* time I've ever seen someone (apparently intentionally) drop a trailing zero was on this list not too long ago. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 19 16:38:26 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:38:26 +0000 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hey folks, On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for anyone? Thanks! -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 16:47:51 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:47:51 -0400 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Ian King wrote: > Hey folks, > > On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 cartridges. I remember those. > Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL cartridges? I don't remember those. I _do_ remember shelf-top RL pack organizers for lift-front steel storage cabinets. That's what we used in the mid-1980s through mid-1990s. The shelves might or might not slide out, but you'd buy a painted steel thing from Inmac (or someone like them) that you'd sit on a shelf that was tall enough to hold an RL pack with an inch or two of clearance. The packs were stored on edge, and inside an open shelf door with a full load of packs, it kind of looked like a roll of oversized tan Livesavers. We had multiple cabinets with 4 shelves each (we had several RL-only PDP-11s and we got our RSX distros on RL from DEC for a few years - no tape drives on those machines once the distro tapes got too large to fit on a small 800 bpi reel for our TM03). -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 19 20:12:07 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:12:07 -0700 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 5:47 PM -0400 9/19/12, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL cartridges? > >I don't remember those. I _do_ remember shelf-top RL pack organizers >for lift-front steel storage cabinets. That's what we used in the >mid-1980s through mid-1990s. The shelves might or might not slide >out, but you'd buy a painted steel thing from Inmac (or someone like >them) that you'd sit on a shelf that was tall enough to hold an RL >pack with an inch or two of clearance. The packs were stored on edge, >and inside an open shelf door with a full load of packs, it kind of >looked like a roll of oversized tan Livesavers. I have a couple of those, plus a nice media cabinet to use them in. I also have one or two for 9-Track tapes, though I've repurposed one of the 9-Track tape racks for drying prints when I'm working in the darkroom. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 20:54:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q > for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings > from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was > pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. > It does terrible things to OCR. Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it! Haven't seen it since. In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it. He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions. He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird questions! I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 21:02:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120919190158.G99097@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: SORRY! I didn't even notice the old date on a message that showed up as incoming. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 21:13:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 03:13:07 +0100 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <20120919190158.G99097@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> <20120919190158.G99097@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 20 September 2012 03:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > SORRY! > > I didn't even notice the old date on a message that showed up as incoming. I did wonder where that came from! I am bemused to learn that it used to be the other way round. I've been meticulously slashing my 0s to distinguish them from Os for nearly 30yrs, since I was a schoolkid going around to family friends' houses to use their Sinclair ZX81s. It really confuses the issue in Norway, where ? and ? are a *separate letter*, totally distinct from O. (It's pronounced something like "er"; you can find it in the name of the fairly well-known city of Troms?.) Whereas the southern Europeans tend to think of letters with or without accents - e or ?, o or ? - in Scandinavia, they're thought of as letters in their own right. I don't know what Norwegian programmers hand-wrote to distinguish O, 0 and ?! Maybe a VGA-style zero-with-a-central-dot, which doesn't seem to have a Unicode glyph. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 19 21:14:14 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <20120919190158.G99097@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Sep 19, 12 07:02:46 pm" Message-ID: <201209200214.q8K2EEOP17498220@floodgap.com> > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > SORRY! > > I didn't even notice the old date on a message that showed up as incoming. Well, the O's did have slashes on them, didn't they? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Test-tube babies shouldn't throw stones. ----------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 19 21:57:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:57:01 -0700 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org>, <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <505A238D.21503.26965A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2012 at 18:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described > > as an upside down Q for a slashed O. The only example I know of > > where someone used this are in line printer listings from SDS in the > > late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to > > find who was pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like > > misformed 8's. It does terrible things to OCR. Well, remember the OCR-A font? Square zero and diamond-shaped "oh"? At some point, CDC decided that it would be great to use for office correspondence (some manuals were even done in it). I had a typerwriter in my office with that font and I thought it was one of the ugliest fonts I'd ever seen. OCR-B was much, MUCH better. Fortunately, CDC dropped the idea after a couple of years. I probably still have a document somewhere with the "looped" ohs. I can't recall for the life of me who used the convention. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 23:10:10 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 21:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: in need of an SX-64 keyboard Message-ID: <1348114210.38528.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> email me please From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 00:51:06 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 07:51:06 +0200 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <46c4278ac2aad54e8c01659c950a44e9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Hey folks, > > On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 > cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL > cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is > configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some > neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for > anyone? Thanks! -- Ian > > > Yes, I have one and it holds 3 RL packs. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 20 02:37:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:37:18 -0600 Subject: SAM76 source code, documentation? Message-ID: <505AC7AE.8010707@brouhaha.com> Wikipedia says that SAM76 was rewritten in C and that the source code and documentation were available. Does anyone actually have it? Thanks, Eric From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 03:39:00 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:39:00 +0200 Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01cd970b$659a7c30$30cf7490$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: woensdag 19 september 2012 22:13 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module > > Does anyone have a dump (in any sane format [1]) of the Peripheral Control II > (PC-2, whatever) ROM module for the HP9820 calculator? Not PC-1, which I > already have. Last time I looked, it wasn't included with the HP9800e emulator. > > Also looking for dumps of the DataComm 2 and DataComm 3 moduels for the > HP9830 (I have DataComm 1), but these are much less important at the > momnet. > > [1] Plain binary, Intel Hex, List of octal numbers (as used by HP9800e), BPNF, > Motorola S record, whatever. > > Thanks in advance ofr any help > > -tony I only have the PC1 but, the Australian HP museum seems to have one http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=133 . Achim Burger knows how to dump the ROM contents without opening the case, he made some small programs to do this and copy the contents through the rs232 interface. Maybe you can do something with this info. -Rik From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Sep 20 05:22:04 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:22:04 +0200 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348136524.5992.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin: > On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q > > for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings > > from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was > > pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. > > It does terrible things to OCR. > > Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it! > > Haven't seen it since. > > In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate > them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it. > He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions. > He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird > questions! > I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he > had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk! > The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (? which is a big ?.) That convention clashes with the norwegian ?. ? (swedish) = ? (norwegian) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 20 08:27:51 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: original Fortran source for Prolog Message-ID: <201209201327.q8KDRpYg10813524@floodgap.com> There are references in the literature to a Fortran Prolog interpreter, apparently written by Alain Colmerauer himself with Phillippe Roussel. Actually finding this interpreter, despite copious references to it, has been considerably more difficult. There are also references to a Berkeley Prolog (not University of California) that is also in Fortran. Does anyone have a lead on, or possess, any of these small early interpreters? Yes, I know about the WAM, gcc prolog, etc. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Male Macintosh geeks are so predictable. All we think about is X. ---------- From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 09:38:31 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:38:31 -0400 Subject: SAM76 source code, documentation? In-Reply-To: <505AC7AE.8010707@brouhaha.com> References: <505AC7AE.8010707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <505B2A67.8040100@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Wikipedia says that SAM76 was rewritten in C and that the source code > and documentation were available. Does anyone actually have it? I do... somewhere. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 10:12:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:12:25 +0100 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: <1348136524.5992.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> <1348136524.5992.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On 20 September 2012 11:22, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin: >> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: >> > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q >> > for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings >> > from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was >> > pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. >> > It does terrible things to OCR. >> >> Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it! >> >> Haven't seen it since. >> >> In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate >> them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it. >> He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions. >> He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird >> questions! >> I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he >> had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk! >> > > The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (? > which is a big ?.) > > That convention clashes with the norwegian ?. > > ? (swedish) = ? (norwegian) I just love the deep respect and affection the Nordic countries have for one another. ;?) http://satwcomic.com/we-should-be-friends http://satwcomic.com/stop-talking http://satwcomic.com/nordics-like-fish http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson http://satwcomic.com/nordic-brothers And on the alphabets... http://satwcomic.com/nothing-is-perfect -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 10:51:56 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:51:56 -0400 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <46c4278ac2aad54e8c01659c950a44e9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <46c4278ac2aad54e8c01659c950a44e9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:51 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL >> cartridges? > > Yes, I have one and it holds 3 RL packs. Pictures? Love to see it. -ethan From auringer at tds.net Thu Sep 20 11:41:10 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:41:10 -0500 Subject: DEC perf board Message-ID: Hi all, I have a piece of perfboard (6.75" x 3.375") with two 20 x 20 grids of plated holes. It is labelled with "DEC" and "A-1". What do I have? Thanks, -Jon From jcw1231 at pacbell.net Thu Sep 20 12:27:41 2012 From: jcw1231 at pacbell.net (JC White) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek Message-ID: <1348162061.81767.YahooMailNeo@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In my ham radio contacts from the early?'60s till rather recently, I often saw the slash?used to designate a zero; I noticed the same thing in engineering school in the late '60s and early '70s.? And, I have a Teletype Corporation teleprinter that has the slashed zero type pallet (ah, fond memories of loud noises and the smell of oil), although TTY Corp did make a non-slashed zero type pallet for the same type basket.? It was my understanding that, at least in this country, it was the zero that was slashed rather than the letter O.? Ah yes, more possibilities for confusion. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 12:32:24 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:32:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: <000c01cd970b$659a7c30$30cf7490$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 20, 12 10:39:00 am Message-ID: > I only have the PC1 but, the Australian HP museum seems to have one > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=133 . > Achim Burger knows how to dump the ROM contents without opening the case, he It must be possible to read out the ROMs without opening the mosdule, after all ,thats; what hte HP9800 does when it runs said programs. In fact, the only signal you can find internally and not on the moduel conencotr is the -V Vbb bias supply (there's a -12V rail on the conenctor and a potential divider ins the mdoule). The module, as I am sure you're aware is just 4 of those HP512*8 ROMs and the potential divider. > made some small programs to do this and copy the contents through the rs232 > interface. Such a program would ahve to be in machien code, and there's no way to enter machien code o nteh keyboard on any of these machines. I guess he's got something on tape or cards to do it. Eitehr that, or he grabs the data from the M and T registers when the machine does the power-on memory scan. > Maybe you can do something with this info. I will contact Achim (do you have his address? it's remarkably hard to find), but I don;t hold out much hope. I suspect he'd like all the ROM images for his HP9800e emulator (said package includes PC1 for the HP9820 and DataComm 1 foe the HP9830) and I would have thought he'd already asked the Australian Museum. Incidentally, if you want to know what I want it for, no I am not running an emualtor. Or writing an emualtor. Take a look at the talks on the Sunday of the HPCC conference this year :-) -tony From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 20 12:50:15 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:50:15 -0400 Subject: SAM76 source code, documentation? In-Reply-To: <505B2A67.8040100@gmail.com> References: <505AC7AE.8010707@brouhaha.com> <505B2A67.8040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06cb7104e8021ae98027398bd14e3576.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> Wikipedia says that SAM76 was rewritten in C and that the source code and documentation were available. Does anyone actually have it? >> I do... somewhere. MARCH has a copy of the original SAM76 manual. I will see if we can get permission to scan and post it. We're on good terms with the RESISTORS alumni and the executor of Claude Kagan's estate. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 13:37:05 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:37:05 +0200 Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cd970b$659a7c30$30cf7490$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 20, 12 10:39:00 am Message-ID: <004301cd975e$f2caf640$d860e2c0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 20 september 2012 19:32 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module > > > I only have the PC1 but, the Australian HP museum seems to have one > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=133 . > > Achim Burger knows how to dump the ROM contents without opening the > > case, he > > It must be possible to read out the ROMs without opening the mosdule, after all > ,thats; what hte HP9800 does when it runs said programs. In fact, the only signal > you can find internally and not on the moduel conencotr is the -V Vbb bias supply > (there's a -12V rail on the conenctor and a potential divider ins the mdoule). The > module, as I am sure you're aware is just 4 of those HP512*8 ROMs and the > potential divider. > > > > made some small programs to do this and copy the contents through the > > rs232 interface. > > Such a program would ahve to be in machien code, and there's no way to enter > machien code o nteh keyboard on any of these machines. I guess he's got > something on tape or cards to do it. Eitehr that, or he grabs the data from the M > and T registers when the machine does the power-on memory scan. > > > > Maybe you can do something with this info. > > I will contact Achim (do you have his address? it's remarkably hard to find), but I > don;t hold out much hope. I suspect he'd like all the ROM images for his > HP9800e emulator (said package includes PC1 for the HP9820 and DataComm 1 > foe the HP9830) and I would have thought he'd already asked the Australian > Museum. > > Incidentally, if you want to know what I want it for, no I am not running an > emualtor. Or writing an emualtor. Take a look at the talks on the Sunday of the > HPCC conference this year :-) > > -tony Interesting, very interesting... The address is on its way. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 13:59:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 19:59:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: <004301cd975e$f2caf640$d860e2c0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 20, 12 08:37:05 pm Message-ID: > Interesting, very interesting... > The address is on its way. Making an EPROM module fo rthe HP9800s is one of htose things htat looks quite easy on paper -- the only oddity is the enable signal -- but spriisngly hard when you come ot do it. Particualrly in the HP9810/20, where the ROM moduel backpalen is wired up on a horrble bundle of wires which have signficatnt inductance. Decoupling well is essential, even then it;s not as easy as it looks... Put it is worththe effort. I noww have DataComm 1 for the HP9830, so I cna finally make use fo the 11284 interface I have. I have C1 nd PC2 for the HP(810, so I can get that machine talking to a serial port, etc. Alas PC1 for the HP9820 doesn't allow the sort of low-level access I'd like, which is why I'd like PC2... -tony From auringer at tds.net Thu Sep 20 13:59:16 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: Vintage mechanical design software collectors? Message-ID: Hi All, Does anyone collect / maintain old versions of programs like I-DEAS or ANSYS? I have a stack of literature about these, and other, design systems. My inclination is to recycle. Anyone care? -Jon From brain at jbrain.com Thu Sep 20 14:29:25 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:29:25 -0500 Subject: Anyone near Canby, MN? Message-ID: <505B6E95.5020902@jbrain.com> An item of interest there, but it's currently too far to pick up for me. Was hoping to find a kind soul who store it for a spell until I could make a trip. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 20 14:42:32 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:42:32 +0200 Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: References: <004301cd975e$f2caf640$d860e2c0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 20, 12 08:37:05 pm Message-ID: <000001cd9768$1737d3a0$45a77ae0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 20 september 2012 21:00 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module > > > Interesting, very interesting... > > The address is on its way. > > Making an EPROM module fo rthe HP9800s is one of htose things htat looks > quite easy on paper -- the only oddity is the enable signal -- but spriisngly hard > when you come ot do it. Particualrly in the HP9810/20, where the ROM moduel > backpalen is wired up on a horrble bundle of wires which have signficatnt > inductance. Decoupling well is essential, even then it;s not as easy as it looks... > > Put it is worththe effort. I noww have DataComm 1 for the HP9830, so I cna > finally make use fo the 11284 interface I have. I have C1 nd PC2 for the HP(810, > so I can get that machine talking to a serial port, etc. Alas > PC1 for the HP9820 doesn't allow the sort of low-level access I'd like, which is > why I'd like PC2... > > -tony The same kind of project has come up to my mind. I was planning to build a ROM-board for the 9830 so you can put all the roms to 1 board. I didn't came to at the moment, too much work and too much to do.. But I'm very interested to your implementation of the home made ROM boards. -Rik From auringer at tds.net Thu Sep 20 15:38:33 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:38:33 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 9100 operators manual and 9100 series seminar workbook available Message-ID: I offered these up before and had no takers. Anyone interested in saving them from the recycle bin for the cost of shipping from 53714? -Jon From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 20 16:41:40 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:41:40 -0600 Subject: Vintage mechanical design software collectors? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "auringer tds.net" writes: > Does anyone collect / maintain old versions of programs like I-DEAS or > ANSYS? I have a stack of literature about these, and other, design > systems. My inclination is to recycle. Anyone care? If you're going to toss the documentation/manuals, I'd like to take custody of them to scan/archive them. CAD is an important piece of the history of computer graphics, being the market that dominated the development of new hardware prior to the explosion of PC gaming in the 90s. Archiving the software has proved more elusive than documentation at this point; much of this high end CAD software was deployed only on the workstations/minicomputers that were sold along with the software and they often have licensing schemes that prevent the software from executing indefinitely. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 20 16:44:09 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:44:09 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 9100 operators manual and 9100 series seminar workbook available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "auringer tds.net" writes: > I offered these up before and had no takers. Anyone interested in > saving them from the recycle bin for the cost of shipping from 53714? What's the 9100 series again? Microprocessor development system? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 16:55:34 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 14:55:34 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 9100 operators manual and 9100 series seminar workbook available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2012 2:50 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > In article < CAD+kn83_oSJmJzFVkKg4xTf_P6H480Y5zT3g0MqGaAjmXF-QjA at mail.gmail.com>, > "auringer tds.net" writes: > > > I offered these up before and had no takers. Anyone interested in > > saving them from the recycle bin for the cost of shipping from 53714? > > What's the 9100 series again? Microprocessor development system? Is that a logic analyzer mainframe? DAS 9100 DIGITAL LOGIC ANALYZER? From spedraja at ono.com Thu Sep 20 17:05:17 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:05:17 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay Message-ID: For anyone interested and with cash available. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 Regards. SPc. From spedraja at ono.com Thu Sep 20 17:08:12 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:08:12 +0200 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals Message-ID: No affiliation. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35-Digital-VMS-System-Management-C-DCL-RMS-manuals-/271063456942?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Manuals_Merchandise&hash=item3f1ca41cae#ht_500wt_1148 Regards SPc. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 17:18:43 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 15:18:43 -0700 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> On 9/20/2012 3:05 PM, SPC wrote: > For anyone interested and with cash available. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 > > Regards. > SPc. That is one patriotic looking color scheme. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 18:29:23 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 16:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 Message-ID: <1348183763.23863.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> one 40 pin chip's id is obliterated, the other is an SCN8035A (a uP). Toshiba TMM2016-AP10, 2 roms. Lots of glue. 18.0000 mhz? crystal. A weird squarish gray connector on the bracket. 8 bit ISA. From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 20 18:30:42 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 01:30:42 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> References: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505BA722.7050602@update.uu.se> On 09/21/2012 12:18 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/20/2012 3:05 PM, SPC wrote: >> For anyone interested and with cash available. >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 >> >> >> Regards. >> SPc. > > That is one patriotic looking color scheme. Industrial color scheme :) There are industrial11 too: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/front_paneler/PDP1140-industrial.jpg However, it's not a PDP-8/l it's a PDP-8/m. Nice setup though. /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 20 20:52:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:52:37 -0400 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> On 09/20/2012 06:05 PM, SPC wrote: > For anyone interested and with cash available. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is going to be fun to watch. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 21:03:26 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 03:03:26 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 9100 operators manual and 9100 series seminar workbook available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:38 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: > I offered these up before and had no takers. Anyone interested in > saving them from the recycle bin for the cost of shipping from 53714? > > -Jon Unfortunately the cost of postage to me is far too high (UK) but I dont know of any other copy of the seminar workbook. http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=9100 I have the operators manual and a couple of others, but seeking the service manuals to get one up and running. Dave Caroline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 21:06:04 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:06:04 -0400 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/20/2012 06:05 PM, SPC wrote: >> For anyone interested and with cash available. >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 > > Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is going to be > fun to watch. Yeah. That's a sweet setup, and I don't remember the last time I even saw pictures of an Industrial-8. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 21:31:10 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 19:31:10 -0700 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> On 9/20/2012 7:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 09/20/2012 06:05 PM, SPC wrote: >>> For anyone interested and with cash available. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 >> Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is going to be >> fun to watch. > Yeah. That's a sweet setup, and I don't remember the last time I even > saw pictures of an Industrial-8. > > -ethan The US auction is http://www.ebay.com/itm/200822262265 . It odd to keep seeing this with the UK url. It's actually in New York. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 20 22:49:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:49:29 -0700 Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: <1348183763.23863.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348183763.23863.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505BE3C9.24522.15CABD9@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Sep 2012 at 16:29, Chris Tofu wrote: > one 40 pin chip's id is obliterated, the other is an SCN8035A (a uP). > Toshiba TMM2016-AP10, 2 roms. Lots of glue. 18.0000 mhz? crystal. A > weird squarish gray connector on the bracket. 8 bit ISA. Connector is 50 pin? It's a tape controller, probably QIC02. Don't know anything else about it. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 20 23:03:22 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:03:22 -0700 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Sep 20, at 7:31 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/20/2012 7:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Dave McGuire >> wrote: >>> On 09/20/2012 06:05 PM, SPC wrote: >>>> For anyone interested and with cash available. >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8- >>>> Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265? >>>> pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_11 >>>> 31 >>> Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is >>> going to be >>> fun to watch. >> Yeah. That's a sweet setup, and I don't remember the last time I >> even >> saw pictures of an Industrial-8. >> >> -ethan > > The US auction is http://www.ebay.com/itm/200822262265 . It odd to > keep seeing this with the UK url. It's actually in New York. With two acoustic modems and strangely, a Cromemco Dazzler! (S100 graphics board, photo 48). From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 20 23:04:37 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <201209210404.q8L44bMi12779772@floodgap.com> Picked up a VAXstation 3100 M76 from Nekochan. Looks like a nice box, but keyboards and mice on ePay are at ghastly rates. If anyone has a spare of either or both they'd like to sell, please let me know. In the meantime, I'll wire its MMJ port to one of the beige Macs' serial ports. It also has the SPX graphics board. How easy are those to convert to VGA? It has a 3W3 connector, I think (it hasn't arrived yet). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal --------------- From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 20 23:07:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 Message-ID: <1348200461.79501.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I didnt count, but probably. Thats a heck of a lot of silicon for a tape drive, but what do I know. The Tandy 2000 Bernoulli controller has about a dozen common ttl. Anyone got a Bernoulli drive they dont need? ------------------------------ On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 8:49 PM PDT Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >On 20 Sep 2012 at 16:29, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> one 40 pin chip's id is obliterated, the other is an SCN8035A (a uP). >> Toshiba TMM2016-AP10, 2 roms. Lots of glue. 18.0000 mhz? crystal. A >> weird squarish gray connector on the bracket. 8 bit ISA. > >Connector is 50 pin? It's a tape controller, probably QIC02. Don't >know anything else about it. > >--Chuck > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 20 23:22:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:22:49 -0400 Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: <1348200461.79501.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348200461.79501.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505BEB99.9050105@neurotica.com> On 09/21/2012 12:07 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I didnt count, but probably. Thats a heck of a lot of silicon for a > tape drive, but what do I know. The Tandy 2000 Bernoulli controller > has about a dozen common ttl. That's because the Bernoulli drive's interface is (mostly) SCSI which, if you do all the transaction handling in software, which the Bernoulli driver does, all you really need is some parallel I/O. Handling tape drives is usually quite a bit more complicated than that. > Anyone got a Bernoulli drive they dont need? I'm looking for some too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 20 23:25:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:25:04 -0400 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <201209210404.q8L44bMi12779772@floodgap.com> References: <201209210404.q8L44bMi12779772@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <505BEC20.6040801@neurotica.com> On 09/21/2012 12:04 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Picked up a VAXstation 3100 M76 from Nekochan. Looks like a nice box, but > keyboards and mice on ePay are at ghastly rates. If anyone has a spare of > either or both they'd like to sell, please let me know. In the meantime, > I'll wire its MMJ port to one of the beige Macs' serial ports. > > It also has the SPX graphics board. How easy are those to convert to VGA? > It has a 3W3 connector, I think (it hasn't arrived yet). Damn nice machine! Private mail sent about the stuff you need. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 20 23:55:12 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:55:12 -0700 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <505BEC20.6040801@neurotica.com> References: <201209210404.q8L44bMi12779772@floodgap.com> <505BEC20.6040801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:25 AM -0400 9/21/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 09/21/2012 12:04 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Picked up a VAXstation 3100 M76 from Nekochan. Looks like a nice box, but >> keyboards and mice on ePay are at ghastly rates. If anyone has a spare of >> either or both they'd like to sell, please let me know. In the meantime, >> I'll wire its MMJ port to one of the beige Macs' serial ports. >> >> It also has the SPX graphics board. How easy are those to convert to VGA? >> It has a 3W3 connector, I think (it hasn't arrived yet). > > Damn nice machine! Private mail sent about the stuff you need. > > -Dave If it was me, I'd probably simply hook a VT420 up to it. Nice box, I'm a little envious! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 00:00:48 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 00:00:48 -0500 Subject: dec m7294 to m7297 availible for trade or sale Message-ID: anyone looking for these boards they came with a backplane i picked up to use for storing spare cards on also a a single wide mini blank jumper card of some sort 9-77p g727a grant continuity ? anyone interested? i'm located in winnipeg canada From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 00:46:25 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 22:46:25 -0700 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? Message-ID: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> Hey all -- (Here's hoping this makes it to the list, my last couple of mails appear to have disappeared into the nothing...) I was fortunate to come into possession of a very complete Sun-2/120 workstation last week. (Complete enough that it came in the original boxes and included amongst other things a bottle of tape head cleaner with a Sun P/N on it...) Included with the system are maybe 8 feet of manuals and other ephemera, I haven't done an extensive inventory but it seems to cover SunOS 1.0 through 3.0, some hardware documentation, and I have other assorted goodies like the first few issues of the Sun User Group "README" newsletter, sales pamphlets, sales invoices and correspondence between the buyer and Sun. I haven't found any digital archives of this stuff (but perhaps I've been looking in the wrong places). Is any of it of particular interest w.r.t. archiving? (Anyone with a bulk scanning setup willing to take it on?) - Josh From tim at tim-mann.org Thu Sep 20 22:26:46 2012 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 20:26:46 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 109, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 11:00 PM, wrote: > Message: 17 > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:38:09 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mike Loewen > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and > Reference request > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Mon, 17 Sep 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Scott Kevill wrote: > >> Best references are: [...] > > > > Thanks for the excellent list of references. > > > > I think "TRSDOS 2.3 Decoded" was what I was trying to think of when I > > reference "TRS-80 Disk and Other Mysteries". > > > > Do you mind if I include your list, with attribution, on a web page about > > prior art relating to the patent? > > You might want to contact Tim Mann, whose work on LDOS may have > included some file system interfacing: > > http://www.tim-mann.org/ldos.html I'm on this list, though I don't always keep up with reading it. "The Programmer's Guide to LDOS/TRSDOS Version 6", copyright 1983, also documents the HIT. See http://tim-mann.org/misosys.html#down. From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 21 01:06:47 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 08:06:47 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> Message-ID: My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning url comes assigned to .uk SPc 2012/9/21 mc68010 : > On 9/20/2012 7:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 9:52 PM, Dave McGuire >> wrote: >>> >>> On 09/20/2012 06:05 PM, SPC wrote: >>>> >>>> For anyone interested and with cash available. >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 >>> >>> Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is going to be >>> fun to watch. >> >> Yeah. That's a sweet setup, and I don't remember the last time I even >> saw pictures of an Industrial-8. >> >> -ethan > > > The US auction is http://www.ebay.com/itm/200822262265 . It odd to keep > seeing this with the UK url. It's actually in New York. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Sep 21 01:24:59 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 07:24:59 +0100 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505C083B.6070908@wickensonline.co.uk> On 21/09/12 06:46, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > (Here's hoping this makes it to the list, my last couple of mails > appear to have disappeared into the nothing...) > > I was fortunate to come into possession of a very complete Sun-2/120 > workstation last week. (Complete enough that it came in the original > boxes and included amongst other things a bottle of tape head cleaner > with a Sun P/N on it...) > > Included with the system are maybe 8 feet of manuals and other > ephemera, I haven't done an extensive inventory but it seems to cover > SunOS 1.0 through 3.0, some hardware documentation, and I have other > assorted goodies like the first few issues of the Sun User Group > "README" newsletter, sales pamphlets, sales invoices and > correspondence between the buyer and Sun. > > I haven't found any digital archives of this stuff (but perhaps I've > been looking in the wrong places). Is any of it of particular > interest w.r.t. archiving? (Anyone with a bulk scanning setup willing > to take it on?) > > - Josh > Where in the world are you Josh? From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 21 01:57:50 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 08:57:50 +0200 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: My scanner is not a great thing, but it has a decent paper feeder. I don't have interest in take possession of these manuals (for space reasons), but I could get some of them to scan and return to the owner. Assuming that they are in binders, of course. I'm constructing an artisan scanner based in my Smarthpone for traditional book scanning, but I'm going slow with it. And having in mind that I live in Europe. SPc. 2012/9/21 Josh Dersch : > Hey all -- > > (Here's hoping this makes it to the list, my last couple of mails appear to > have disappeared into the nothing...) > > I was fortunate to come into possession of a very complete Sun-2/120 > workstation last week. (Complete enough that it came in the original boxes > and included amongst other things a bottle of tape head cleaner with a Sun > P/N on it...) > > Included with the system are maybe 8 feet of manuals and other ephemera, I > haven't done an extensive inventory but it seems to cover SunOS 1.0 through > 3.0, some hardware documentation, and I have other assorted goodies like the > first few issues of the Sun User Group "README" newsletter, sales pamphlets, > sales invoices and correspondence between the buyer and Sun. > > I haven't found any digital archives of this stuff (but perhaps I've been > looking in the wrong places). Is any of it of particular interest w.r.t. > archiving? (Anyone with a bulk scanning setup willing to take it on?) > > - Josh > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 03:05:58 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 01:05:58 -0700 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: > My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning > url comes assigned to .uk > I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the UK. Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. Is there anything around about the design work at DEC ? I would love to hear the story about the red, white, and blue design of this box. Did they design it after a wild 4th of July BBQ? It looks so different. From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 21 04:35:30 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:35:30 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm sure that someone is doing it from time ago, but as a documentation effort (and ever that it wouldn't suppose a legal problem), I would suggest to keep the photos of items like this one which appear in eBay from time to time. This PDP8 is an example. SPc. 2012/9/21 mc68010 : > On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: >> >> My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning >> url comes assigned to .uk >> > > I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the UK. > Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. > > Is there anything around about the design work at DEC ? I would love to hear > the story about the red, white, and blue design of this box. Did they > design it after a wild 4th of July BBQ? It looks so different. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Sep 21 05:30:43 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:30:43 +0200 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348223443.5992.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> fre 2012-09-21 klockan 08:57 +0200 skrev SPC: > My scanner is not a great thing, but it has a decent paper feeder. > > I don't have interest in take possession of these manuals (for space > reasons), but I could get some of them to scan and return to the > owner. > > Assuming that they are in binders, of course. I'm constructing an > artisan scanner based in my Smarthpone for traditional book scanning, > but I'm going slow with it. > > And having in mind that I live in Europe. > > SPc. I have a rather complete mid-to-late 80s manual setup for the 2/120. I'm in Sweden so it is possible to distribute the scan work if someone with a scanner and who lives in Scandinavia is prepared to assist (no i don't have an suitable scanner...) ps but then i think about it, i do have access to a semi-suitable scanner (one of the Ricoh workgroup copy/and scan setups.) ds From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Sep 21 05:34:18 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:34:18 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> References: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348223658.5992.9.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-09-20 klockan 15:18 -0700 skrev mc68010: > On 9/20/2012 3:05 PM, SPC wrote: > > For anyone interested and with cash available. > > > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 > > > > Regards. > > SPc. > > That is one patriotic looking color scheme. Why is the ad placed in the .co.uk part of ebay and if the items is in old US ?? From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Sep 21 05:50:52 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:50:52 +0200 Subject: Slashing the letter O (Was: Re: Service bureaus (Was: Tek 4051 firmware listing)) In-Reply-To: References: <4D0A93C0.2030303@gmail.com> <4D0A9825.20406@bitsavers.org> <20120919184607.D99097@shell.lmi.net> <1348136524.5992.2.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <1348224652.5992.14.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tor 2012-09-20 klockan 16:12 +0100 skrev Liam Proven: > On 20 September 2012 11:22, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > ons 2012-09-19 klockan 18:54 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin: > >> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > There was an attempt at establishing what can roughly be described as an upside down Q > >> > for a slashed O. The only example I know of where someone used this are in line printer listings > >> > from SDS in the late 60's. I would have to do some serious digging in magazines to find who was > >> > pushing this as a standard. They end up looking like misformed 8's. > >> > It does terrible things to OCR. > >> > >> Microsoft's first attempt at OCR customer order forms used it! > >> > >> Haven't seen it since. > >> > >> In the 1960s, I remember a few old farts who slashed O's (to differentiate > >> them from zeroes!) One of the teachers that I had in 1967 used to do it. > >> He never liked me, because I asked a lot of weird questions. > >> He was one of my favorite teachers, because he could answer those weird > >> questions! > >> I assume that they are all dead now. When I began teaching in 1983, he > >> had recently passed, and they gave me his old desk! > >> > > > > The old swedish standard for distinguishing zero (0) was with a slash (? > > which is a big ?.) > > > > That convention clashes with the norwegian ?. > > > > ? (swedish) = ? (norwegian) > > I just love the deep respect and affection the Nordic countries have > for one another. ;?) > > http://satwcomic.com/we-should-be-friends > http://satwcomic.com/stop-talking > http://satwcomic.com/nordics-like-fish > http://satwcomic.com/norway-in-denmark > http://satwcomic.com/language-lesson > http://satwcomic.com/nordic-brothers > > And on the alphabets... > http://satwcomic.com/nothing-is-perfect What is more depressing is the chasm between danish and swedish speakers (DAMN Anglosaxians !!) Swedes has forsaken the language of the southern province (Denmark) because we now listen too much to the language of that other province (who are we kidding...) From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Sep 21 05:52:17 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:52:17 +0200 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <1348223658.5992.9.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <505B9643.5050702@gmail.com> <1348223658.5992.9.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <505C46E1.3070002@update.uu.se> On 09/21/2012 12:34 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > tor 2012-09-20 klockan 15:18 -0700 skrev mc68010: >> On 9/20/2012 3:05 PM, SPC wrote: >>> For anyone interested and with cash available. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DEC-Digital-PDP-Industrial-8-Minicomputer-Manuals-Boards-Teletype-Decscope-LOT-/200822262265?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2ec1f089f9#ht_4016wt_1131 >>> >>> Regards. >>> SPc. >> That is one patriotic looking color scheme. > Why is the ad placed in the .co.uk part of ebay and if the items is in > old US ?? > > You can view auctions using different domains: http://www.ebay.de/itm/200822262265 http://www.ebay.com/itm/200822262265 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200822262265 It is the language and sometimes the search results that differ. Its rather murky what you can see and/or bid on IMHO. Cheers, Pontus. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 21 04:05:26 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:05:26 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <01OKIH7DLGV6000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> > >Picked up a VAXstation 3100 M76 from Nekochan. Looks like a nice box, but >keyboards and mice on ePay are at ghastly rates. If anyone has a spare of >either or both they'd like to sell, please let me know. In the meantime, >I'll wire its MMJ port to one of the beige Macs' serial ports. > >It also has the SPX graphics board. How easy are those to convert to VGA? >It has a 3W3 connector, I think (it hasn't arrived yet). > My VAXstation 3100 M76 doesn't have a 3W3. It has a DA15M which carries RGB signals with sync on green. I have a DEC cable called a BC19S which converts from the DA15 to three BNC connectors which plug into my monitor. The keyboard and mouse signals are also carried on the DA15 on some models but this doesn't seem to be the case with the M76. My keyboard and mouse are plugged in to the back of the VAXstation. There are no horizontal and vertical sync signals on the DA15 connector so conversion to VGA requires some sort of active device. The SPX card has two switches on it. One of them allows the resolution to be changed. One or other setting may be more suitable for whatever monitor you have available. Any sort of an LK201 or LK401 or similar keyboard as used on VT220 or VT420 or several other terminals seems to work fine with the 3100. There is a small recessed switch on the back of the VAXstation which allows a terminal plugged into an MMJ socket to be used as the console instead of using the graphics system as the console. Do not be tempted to plug in or out the DA15 cable while the power is on. I damaged my SPX card by doing that :-( Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pdp8 at theadamsons.co.uk Fri Sep 21 05:43:23 2012 From: pdp8 at theadamsons.co.uk (pdp8 at theadamsons.co.uk) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:43:23 +0100 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000301cd97e5$edb3a210$c91ae630$@co.uk> > >> Oohhhhhh that's gonna go for some serious bucks. This is going > to be > >> fun to watch. > > Yeah. That's a sweet setup, and I don't remember the last time I > even > > saw pictures of an Industrial-8. > > > > -ethan > But it isn't a pdp8/L - it's an /E or possibly an expanded /M so apart from the colours and the scope not particularly unusual. I'd like it of course (alas I'm in the UK) but I wouldn't go overboard. I've never seen the dectape head protectors (?) before. Bob From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Sep 21 06:54:48 2012 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 06:54:48 -0500 Subject: dec m7294 to m7297 availible for trade or sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FF60F94-B3D9-470B-A7F1-651A35D48470@lunar-tokyo.net> On Sep 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > anyone looking for these boards they came with a backplane i picked up to > use for storing spare cards on > > also a a single wide mini blank jumper card of some sort 9-77p g727a grant > continuity ? > > anyone interested? > > i'm located in winnipeg canada Those are an RH11. On your M7294, there is possibly more letters after the board number, it will look like M7294-AA, M7294-AB, etc. Does yours by any chance say M7294-YA? If so I'm interested in it. From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 21 06:56:35 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:56:35 +0200 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: <1348223443.5992.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> <1348223443.5992.7.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: Better option than mine. I live in Spain :-) SPc 2012/9/21 Stefan Skoglund : > > I have a rather complete mid-to-late 80s manual setup for the 2/120. > > I'm in Sweden so it is possible to distribute the scan work if someone > with a scanner and who lives in Scandinavia is prepared to assist (no > i don't have an suitable scanner...) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 21 07:09:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 05:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <01OKIH7DLGV6000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> from Peter Coghlan at "Sep 21, 12 10:05:26 am" Message-ID: <201209211209.q8LC9eEH9502886@floodgap.com> > My VAXstation 3100 M76 doesn't have a 3W3. It has a DA15M which carries RGB > signals with sync on green. I have a DEC cable called a BC19S which converts > from the DA15 to three BNC connectors which plug into my monitor. [...] Got it. I'll verify the connector when it arrives. I do know that I have a DA-15 to 3BNC connector around here, though I *thought* it was for a Macintosh. Do you know the pinout? When I look for DA-15 video pinouts I keep getting Mac ones. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 21 10:47:59 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:47:59 -0600 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , SPC writes: > No affiliation. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35-Digital-VMS-System-Management-C-DCL-RMS-manuals- /271063456942?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Manuals_Merchandise&hash=item3f1ca41cae#h t_500wt_1148 Speaking of VMS manual walls, how much of this stuff is online? The last time I went trundling through HP's documentation/support site, I had a very hard time finding things and I don't have much confidence they'll maintain that online content forever. I have a large pile of VMS manuals that I could start scanning, but I don't know how urgent/important a task that is. I was planning on just scanning the graphics related stuff (GKS implementation, PHIGS implementation). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 21 10:54:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 08:54:05 -0700 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505C8D9D.4080001@bitsavers.org> On 9/20/12 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I haven't found any digital archives of this stuff I have most of the 3.0 -> 4.1.2 manuals and 1.1 scanned but not on line. Doesn't look like I have anything on 2.0 Did you get the distribution tapes? 1.x -> 2.x is difficult to find and if the are cartridges, are probably sticky. From spedraja at ono.com Fri Sep 21 11:06:44 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:06:44 +0200 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No idea. I got a box with a lot of manuals of VMS 7.x a couple of years ago, but I didn't review the stuff until now. I was waiting to have installed my VMS machines and review my hobbyist license (I don't locate this). In the other hand, I think that HP had many manuals online in the past. SPc. 2012/9/21 Richard : > > In article , > SPC writes: > >> No affiliation. >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35-Digital-VMS-System-Management-C-DCL-RMS-manuals- > /271063456942?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Manuals_Merchandise&hash=item3f1ca41cae#h > t_500wt_1148 > > Speaking of VMS manual walls, how much of this stuff is online? > > The last time I went trundling through HP's documentation/support > site, I had a very hard time finding things and I don't have much > confidence they'll maintain that online content forever. > > I have a large pile of VMS manuals that I could start scanning, but I > don't know how urgent/important a task that is. I was planning on > just scanning the graphics related stuff (GKS implementation, PHIGS > implementation). > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 21 10:29:23 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:29:23 -0400 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <01OKIVDYE8W8000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OKIVDYE8W8000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <505C87D3.9080008@verizon.net> ON top for the reason of.. What flavor of 3100? It makes a difference. I ask as I have 8 of them and no more than two of any variant. The VS3100 series was not a monolythic model but the generic designation for a group of system. Allison Peter Coghlan wrote: >> Got it. I'll verify the connector when it arrives. I do know that I have a >> DA-15 to 3BNC connector around here, though I *thought* it was for a >> Macintosh. Do you know the pinout? When I look for DA-15 video pinouts I >> keep getting Mac ones. >> >> > > (Do the Mac people not call it a DB-15? :-) > > It's the same as for a VAXstation 2000 and I have a manual for that which > has the pinouts. Hmmm. Perhaps it's only the VS2000 that also passes the > keyboard and mouse signals through that connector - there is no room for > more connectors on that machine. > > The video signals are: > > 1. Red > 2. RGB ground > 10. Green > 11. Blue > > There is also a monochrome video signal available from the frame buffer on the > system board which is not usually used if you have one of the optional colour > graphics cards: > > 3. Monochrome ground > 9. Monochrome video > > If you make up an DA-15M - DA-15F adapter to get at these, you can probably > run your VS3100 double headed. I've done it with a GPX graphics card and VMS. > I assume it is also possible with an SPX graphics card. I can't see why not. > > (I remember our sales guy's jaw nearly hitting the floor when I showed him the > Decwindows mouse pointer moving from one monitor onto the other :-) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 21 10:48:07 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:48:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <01OKIVDYE8W8000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> > >Got it. I'll verify the connector when it arrives. I do know that I have a >DA-15 to 3BNC connector around here, though I *thought* it was for a >Macintosh. Do you know the pinout? When I look for DA-15 video pinouts I >keep getting Mac ones. > (Do the Mac people not call it a DB-15? :-) It's the same as for a VAXstation 2000 and I have a manual for that which has the pinouts. Hmmm. Perhaps it's only the VS2000 that also passes the keyboard and mouse signals through that connector - there is no room for more connectors on that machine. The video signals are: 1. Red 2. RGB ground 10. Green 11. Blue There is also a monochrome video signal available from the frame buffer on the system board which is not usually used if you have one of the optional colour graphics cards: 3. Monochrome ground 9. Monochrome video If you make up an DA-15M - DA-15F adapter to get at these, you can probably run your VS3100 double headed. I've done it with a GPX graphics card and VMS. I assume it is also possible with an SPX graphics card. I can't see why not. (I remember our sales guy's jaw nearly hitting the floor when I showed him the Decwindows mouse pointer moving from one monitor onto the other :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 21 11:44:58 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:44:58 -0700 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505C998A.8070407@jwsss.com> On 9/21/2012 1:05 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: >> My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning >> url comes assigned to .uk >> > > I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the > UK. Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. It is interesting if you go to the UK URL for ebay and list the vendor. When you select the "show other auctions" you get some auction for tubing, and not this one. If you navigate to the auction via making a US URL, you get, I think 8 auctions total. I guess the tubing is listed for UK sale. I don't know why a search in the UK would pick this up if you can't see the auction in his "other sales" button. Wish I had a buck or two, I'd give it a shot. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 11:46:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:46:39 -0500 Subject: dec m7294 to m7297 availible for trade or sale In-Reply-To: <3FF60F94-B3D9-470B-A7F1-651A35D48470@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <3FF60F94-B3D9-470B-A7F1-651A35D48470@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: not seeing any letters passed the intial number anywhere on the board On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:54 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Sep 21, 2012, at 12:00 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > anyone looking for these boards they came with a backplane i picked up to > > use for storing spare cards on > > > > also a a single wide mini blank jumper card of some sort 9-77p g727a > grant > > continuity ? > > > > anyone interested? > > > > i'm located in winnipeg canada > > Those are an RH11. On your M7294, there is possibly more letters after the > board number, it will look like M7294-AA, M7294-AB, etc. > Does yours by any chance say M7294-YA? If so I'm interested in it. > > > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 21 11:48:38 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 09:48:38 -0700 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505C9A66.5070108@jwsss.com> If you had (or have) the quarterly support contract, you get a folder of CD's with all the software and documentation. I am far from a VMS expert, but I have been told that all that is in a grey wall would be in the CD package. I'm sure that VMS experts will know which manuals are rare and likely not in such a CD distribution. It would be nice to know if either the Grey or Orange walls have such things that should be collected when reducing the pile for the landfill. Anything which can be had electronically I'd not save at this point on paper. But it would be a shame to miss the equivalent DEC stuff to what in the IBM Mainframe world are the Y and restricted manuals, which crop up from closets. jim On 9/21/2012 9:06 AM, SPC wrote: > No idea. > > I got a box with a lot of manuals of VMS 7.x a couple of years ago, > but I didn't review the stuff until now. I was waiting to have > installed my VMS machines and review my hobbyist license (I don't > locate this). > > In the other hand, I think that HP had many manuals online in the past. > > SPc. > > > 2012/9/21 Richard : >> In article , >> SPC writes: >> >>> No affiliation. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35-Digital-VMS-System-Management-C-DCL-RMS-manuals- >> /271063456942?pt=US_Vintage_Computing_Manuals_Merchandise&hash=item3f1ca41cae#h >> t_500wt_1148 >> >> Speaking of VMS manual walls, how much of this stuff is online? >> >> The last time I went trundling through HP's documentation/support >> site, I had a very hard time finding things and I don't have much >> confidence they'll maintain that online content forever. >> >> I have a large pile of VMS manuals that I could start scanning, but I >> don't know how urgent/important a task that is. I was planning on >> just scanning the graphics related stuff (GKS implementation, PHIGS >> implementation). >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book >> The Computer Graphics Museum >> The Terminals Wiki >> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 12:13:25 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:13:25 -0700 Subject: Early Sun manual archives? In-Reply-To: <505C8D9D.4080001@bitsavers.org> References: <505BFF31.8060708@gmail.com> <505C8D9D.4080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <505CA035.3080100@gmail.com> On 9/21/2012 8:54 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/20/12 10:46 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I haven't found any digital archives of this stuff > > I have most of the 3.0 -> 4.1.2 manuals and 1.1 scanned but not on line. > Doesn't look like I have anything on 2.0 > > Did you get the distribution tapes? 1.x -> 2.x is difficult to find > and if > the are cartridges, are probably sticky. > > I did get tapes, I have complete sets for 1.0, 1.1, 1.4U, 2.0, 2.3U, 3.0, 3.2 and 3.4U on QIC tape. I haven't attempted to read them since I figured they're pretty fragile (and at the moment I don't have anything capable of doing so anyway.) I've found archives of 2.0 and later on the 'net, has anything earlier been archived? A kind gentleman nearby (Seattle area) has offered his services to scan some of this documentation, I'll see what I have that you haven't already covered. (And thanks to everyone else who's offered help!) - Josh From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Fri Sep 21 12:27:19 2012 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 11:27:19 -0600 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals References: Message-ID: <075403CF99044508B2B9C518D2230B62@RANGER1> FWIW - I've got a pdf of HP Pascal for OpenVMS - Language Reference Manual - Jan 2005 Keven Miller From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 21 12:44:12 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <01OKIVDYE8W8000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> from Peter Coghlan at "Sep 21, 12 04:48:07 pm" Message-ID: <201209211744.q8LHiD4w10354834@floodgap.com> > (Do the Mac people not call it a DB-15? :-) They call it all kinds of things ... > It's the same as for a VAXstation 2000 and I have a manual for that which > has the pinouts. Hmmm. Perhaps it's only the VS2000 that also passes the > keyboard and mouse signals through that connector - there is no room for > more connectors on that machine. > > The video signals are: > > 1. Red > 2. RGB ground > 10. Green > 11. Blue Refresh rate and resolution? > There is also a monochrome video signal available from the frame buffer on the > system board which is not usually used if you have one of the optional colour > graphics cards: > > 3. Monochrome ground > 9. Monochrome video What are the specs on this signal? Can I feed it to, say, a composite display? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Praise the sea; on shore remain. -- John Florio ---------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 21 12:44:45 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <505C87D3.9080008@verizon.net> from Allison at "Sep 21, 12 11:29:23 am" Message-ID: <201209211744.q8LHijQc10289212@floodgap.com> > ON top for the reason of.. > What flavor of 3100? It makes a difference. It's an M76 (see my original message). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso ---- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 21 13:53:37 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 20:53:37 +0200 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <01OKIH7DLGV6000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OKIH7DLGV6000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120921205337.9206f759.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 10:05:26 +0100 (WET-DST) Peter Coghlan wrote: > There are no horizontal and vertical sync signals on the DA15 > connector so conversion to VGA requires some sort of active device. Depends on how you define "VGA", as there are many possible definitions of "VGA". (PeeCee video mode switching madness...) Connect the RGB signals from the VAXstation to the RGB pins of a VGA connector, plug it into a display and see what it makes out of it. Many VGA displays can sync to sync on green signals just fine. It will not brake anything if not. The H- / V-fequencies of the VAX video signals are somewhere around SVGA / XGA. (1024 x 864 @ 66 Hz or the like. There may be a 1280 x 1024 mode also, selectable by a DIP switch on the SPX board.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 14:12:56 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:12:56 -0700 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <20120921205337.9206f759.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <01OKIH7DLGV6000L0W@beyondthepale.ie> <20120921205337.9206f759.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: For a VS3100 M76 SPX the video cable is a BC23J. That's the cable I use with my M76 SPX to connect it to an NEC MultiSync CRT. 15-pin to 3 BNC connectors. The SPX graphics controller is switchable between 60 Hz 1024 x 864 and 66 Hz 1280 x 1024. http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 14:42:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 14:42:36 -0500 Subject: pdp 10 concle ebay? Message-ID: just noticed this one on ebay sitting at $810 atm http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-10-KI-10-Computer-Console-Panel-Super-Rare-/130768694290?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item1e726bec12 From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 21 15:07:24 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 22:07:24 +0200 Subject: pdp 10 concle ebay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11ba11f8d7278fcda6bcd1cc12197022.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > just noticed this one on ebay sitting at $810 atm > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-10-KI-10-Computer-Console-Panel-Super-Rare-/130768694290?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item1e726bec12 > Very nice. That's going to fetch some serious $$$. BTW, anyone know what model wallphone is in one of the pictures? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 15:27:00 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:27:00 -0700 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Sep 19, 2012 2:41 PM, "Ian King" wrote: > > Hey folks, > > On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for anyone? Thanks! -- Ian > Are RL02 cartridges larger than RK05 cartridges? Would RL02 cartridges not fit in this rack? http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 (No connection to that seller or listing) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 15:30:31 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:30:31 -0500 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: rk05's are thiner On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sep 19, 2012 2:41 PM, "Ian King" wrote: > > > > Hey folks, > > > > On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 > cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL > cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is > configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some > neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for > anyone? Thanks! -- Ian > > > > Are RL02 cartridges larger than RK05 cartridges? Would RL02 cartridges not > fit in this rack? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 > > (No connection to that seller or listing) > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 15:19:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 21:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted : Dunp of HP9820 Peripheral Control II module In-Reply-To: <000001cd9768$1737d3a0$45a77ae0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 20, 12 09:42:32 pm Message-ID: > The same kind of project has come up to my mind. Given how hard it is to find the original ROM modules, I am not suprised :-) > I was planning to build a ROM-board for the 9830 so you can put all the roms > to 1 board. I thought about doing soemthing like that, but there are problems. The first is that so far I have found : 8 ROM modules for the HP9810 4 for the HP9820 11 for the HP9830. I know of at least one more for the 9820 (PC2) and 7 more for the 9830 (DataComm 2, DataComm 3, and the 5 FastBASIC modules). Now, the 9810 nad 9820 have 3 slots for ROM modules, the 9830 has 8. The number of slots is effectlive 'hardwired' int othe memory map of the machine. So there's no way you could ahev lal the ROMs availalbe at onxe. You would need to hev some way of selecting which ROM you wanted in each slot. Then there is the problem that the singals on the ROM module connector ocnsit of : Power lines, the 9 low-order address liens (A0 to A8, and also A8/), the 16 data lines, a precharge line (CE) and 2 selects (for the 2 sets of ROMs in a real HP module). You don't have access to the highter order address liens or more module sleects. So a multiple ROM odule would involve modifcations to the machine. For the 9810 and 9820, it could conenct to tyhe card edge on the main backplane in palce of the cable to the ROM backplane. For the 9830, I think it would be sinplest ot replace the EXT ROM Selector board in the machine (this has the higher address lines on its conencotr) and also one of the itnernal expansion ROM boards. The 2 replacement board would have ot be linked by an over-the-top cable. In both cases there are rater more modifications to the machien that I would like. You also can't use real HP moduls at the same time. And the ROM sleection logic in a little complex. Not ridiculously so, but I try to use the sort of deices that were avaialbel when the machien was in use, so I would not want to use programmable logic here. It's out of character. So what I did was make a board that acts as one module. It plugs into the module conector with no changes to the machine. You cna put HP modules in thew other connectors if you want to. The board cotnaisn a pair of EPROMs (2764/27128/27256). It's a lot simplere to use 2 EPROms to get the 16 bit word than to have logic to extract the word from 2 locations and latch it. My programmer doesn't ahndle the more modern 16 bit wide EPROMs, so those were 'out'. THere's a few passives, a couple of transsitors to bring the 12V sleect lines back down to 5V, and a simple TTL chip to cenerate the ROM CS/ signal. There's one board for the 9810/20 (same modules, electrically), another for the 9830. They are both hand-wired at the moment, I intend to design a PCB version sometime. Each 1K of EPROM will hold a moduel image. So if you use 27128s, you can store either all the 9810 _and_ 9820 iamges, or all the 9830 images. There's a DIP switch on the board to select which image you want. Maybe not elegant, but simple. Some gotcha's... Decoupling is very important, particularly on the 9810/9820. You need 1k pullups on the address inputs and, for some reason, on the output of the TTL logic feedign thr ROM CS/ signal. You need to use one of the level-shifted moduel chip select signals to provide the A9 signal to the EPROM so that the 2 halves of the module map to different parts of the EPROM. The address and dat aliens at hte moduel conencotr are active low (FWIW, the M and T registers in the 9800 machines are active high, but there are invertes on the address and data lins to the module, look at the schematics). This is no proble, oyu jsut flip bits around when you make the image to program into the EPROM. > I didn't came to at the moment, too much work and too much to do.. > But I'm very interested to your implementation of the home made ROM boards. I don't suppose you're coming to the HPCC conference next month [1]. I am presentign the module there. If not, I will get scheamtics to you somehow. If there's ever a PCB version, I'll let you knwo about that too. [1] Anyone here is very welcome to come along, It's 27/28 October 2012 at Imperail College, London (England) Thsi is not really a classic computer event, but there's a talk each day on classic HP desktop machines [2], and many of the members have interests in old computers, calculators and other related thigns. If you want to come, please let one of the HPCC committee know. [2] It is pointles to argue whether or not these machines are classic comptuers or not. Many of them are comoters intenrally (processor addressing memory + peripherals),. They are user-programamble. OK, they are designed for calcualtions rather than, say, text processing, but that comment could apply to someting like a KIM 1. They were not called `computers' by the manufacturer, but that also applies to PDPs. If they're not something that itnerest you, fine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 15:25:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 21:25:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: <505BE3C9.24522.15CABD9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 20, 12 08:49:29 pm Message-ID: > > > > On 20 Sep 2012 at 16:29, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > one 40 pin chip's id is obliterated, the other is an SCN8035A (a uP). > > Toshiba TMM2016-AP10, 2 roms. Lots of glue. 18.0000 mhz? crystal. A > > weird squarish gray connector on the bracket. 8 bit ISA. > > Connector is 50 pin? It's a tape controller, probably QIC02. Don't > know anything else about it. I doubt it. It is probably a tape controller, but QIC02 is a 'formatteed' interface, and ineerfacign that to the ISA bus is trival -- a dozen TTL chips/ I would guess it's QIC36, which is a low-level 'unformatted' interface. I have seen simialr QIC 36 boards for the ISA bus, A micorprocessor or microcotnroller , EPROM, 2K or 8K of SRAM, a custom 40 pin tape data control IC and glue logic. Often internally they are built as ISA-QIC02 and QIC02-QIC36 interfaces on the same board. In fact I ahve a QIC02 to QIC36 interfce here that usese the same custom IC as a common ISA QIC36 controller (guess where I get spares from :-)). -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 15:35:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:35:16 -0400 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Are RL02 cartridges larger than RK05 cartridges? Same diameter, but thicker. > Would RL02 cartridges not fit in this rack? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 No. They will not fit. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 21 15:36:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 13:36:21 -0700 Subject: First FORTRAN Program Runs, Sept 20, 1954 Message-ID: <505CCFC5.11068.EBA3FB@cclist.sydex.com> An interesting article about one of the granddaddies of programming languages: www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/edn-moments/4396778 --Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 21 15:43:54 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 22:43:54 +0200 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: > On Sep 19, 2012 2:41 PM, "Ian King" wrote: >> >> Hey folks, >> >> On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 > cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL > cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is > configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some > neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for > anyone? Thanks! -- Ian >> > > Are RL02 cartridges larger than RK05 cartridges? Would RL02 cartridges not > fit in this rack? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 > > (No connection to that seller or listing) > RL02's are thicker than RK05's. I have those racks too, and the spacing is certainly different. I'll make a picture of the RL02 rack storage box tomorrow. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 15:46:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:46:44 -0400 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <396865F8-038A-4D64-9FF2-7006D28207FB@gmail.com> On Sep 21, 2012, at 4:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 > > (No connection to that seller or listing) That seller has a number of nice items up for sale, including an 11/44 board set for not a lot of money. (no connection here either, just curious) - Dave From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Sep 21 16:27:31 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 23:27:31 +0200 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505CDBC3.5050803@update.uu.se> On 09/21/2012 05:47 PM, Richard wrote: > Speaking of VMS manual walls, how much of this stuff is online? What I sometimes wonder is if there is a list of manuals, books, leaflets that digital/dec/hp/compaq ever printed. That way we could make a progress bar of all available documentation (both scanned and in peoples closets) I suppose that Manx is a list like that, but I don't know how that list was made or if it is complete. Regards, Pontus From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Sep 21 16:29:48 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 23:29:48 +0200 Subject: pdp 10 concle ebay? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505CDC4C.8090609@update.uu.se> On 09/21/2012 09:42 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > just noticed this one on ebay sitting at $810 atm > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-10-KI-10-Computer-Console-Panel-Super-Rare-/130768694290?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item1e726bec12 I missed out on this very Console the last time it was on ebay, then it went for just over 1000 dollars. (yes it is the same, I compared the pictures) Regards, Pontus. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Sep 21 16:34:30 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 17:34:30 -0400 Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 In-Reply-To: <201209211744.q8LHijQc10289212@floodgap.com> References: <201209211744.q8LHijQc10289212@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <505CDD66.90200@verizon.net> On 09/21/2012 01:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ON top for the reason of.. >> What flavor of 3100? It makes a difference. > It's an M76 (see my original message). > Cool machine, I have two. one with VR160 and the other using VT320 Allison From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 21 17:08:52 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 22:08:52 +0000 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/12 1:27 PM, "Glen Slick" wrote: >On Sep 19, 2012 2:41 PM, "Ian King" wrote: >> >> Hey folks, >> >> On the PDP-8/e we have set up here, we have a rack-mount shelf for RK05 >cartridges. Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL >cartridges? I have a fair amount of rack space on our 11/70, which is >configured with RL01 and RL02 drives, and it would be nice to have some >neat place to store them on the exhibit floor. Does it ring any bells for >anyone? Thanks! -- Ian >> > >Are RL02 cartridges larger than RK05 cartridges? Would RL02 cartridges not >fit in this rack? > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 > >(No connection to that seller or listing) > Yes, they are slightly thicker. I tried inserting RLs in the RK05 rack we have on our 8/e and they wouldn't fit. From the fit in the photo, I think we might have the same problem. But thanks for passing it along! -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 21 17:22:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:22:36 -0700 Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: References: <505BE3C9.24522.15CABD9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 20, 12 08:49:29 pm, Message-ID: <505CE8AC.23253.14CEC7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2012 at 21:25, Tony Duell wrote: > I doubt it. It is probably a tape controller, but QIC02 is a > 'formatteed' interface, and ineerfacign that to the ISA bus is trival > -- a dozen TTL chips/ > > I would guess it's QIC36, which is a low-level 'unformatted' > interface. I have seen simialr QIC 36 boards for the ISA bus, A > micorprocessor or microcotnroller , EPROM, 2K or 8K of SRAM, a custom > 40 pin tape data control IC and glue logic. Often internally they are > built as ISA-QIC02 and QIC02-QIC36 interfaces on the same board. In > fact I ahve a QIC02 to QIC36 interfce here that usese the same custom > IC as a common ISA QIC36 controller (guess where I get spares from > :-)). I don't know, Tony. I've got a couple of QIC36 boards; two are Wangtek QIC36-to-ISA, the other is a Wangtek QIC36-to-QIC02 converter. Both have a substantial number of chips, including an MPU (8085 in all cases) as well as some analog circuitry for what I suspect is a data separator, SRAM and ROM. That seems to me to be a bit beyond the capabilities of an 8035 MCU. So, let''s see what the World-Wide-Intertube says. The only relevant mention I can find of the Sysgen 4540 is in connection with a Wangtek 5096E drive. The 5096E (-ES for SCSI versions) is definitely a QIC-02 interface drive. So there you go... --Chuck . From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 17:24:32 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PromICE 'loadice' software Message-ID: Does anyone have support software for the Grammar Engine PromICE ROM emulator? There were utilities built for Mac, Sun SPARC and MS-DOS (I'm primarily interested in the last). Mine seems to be what's discussed in the V3.0 manual on bitsavers. If bitsavers has the diskette images, I couldn't find them. Steve -- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 21 17:37:05 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:37:05 -0600 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: <505CDBC3.5050803@update.uu.se> References: <505CDBC3.5050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In article <505CDBC3.5050803 at update.uu.se>, Pontus writes: > I suppose that Manx is a list like that, but I don't know how that list > was made or if it is complete. It almost certainly is not complete, even for DEC material which has always been manx's strength. Currently I have been running a beta to allow other editors to make contributions and that basic UI stuff has been vetted. I need to add some audit trail type mechanisms so that the changes can be tracked instead of just overwriting existing data. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 21 17:40:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 16:40:46 -0600 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <396865F8-038A-4D64-9FF2-7006D28207FB@gmail.com> References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <396865F8-038A-4D64-9FF2-7006D28207FB@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <396865F8-038A-4D64-9FF2-7006D28207FB at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > On Sep 21, 2012, at 4:27 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP11-PDP8-RK05-Disk-Rack-/290778109377 > > > > (No connection to that seller or listing) > > That seller has a number of nice items up for sale, including an > 11/44 board set for not a lot of money. He sold the 11/44 board set for less than he's asking for a VT100 with retrographics. That seems a little backwards on the pricing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 21 17:40:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:40:46 -0400 Subject: PromICE 'loadice' software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505CECEE.3030307@neurotica.com> On 09/21/2012 06:24 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone have support software for the Grammar Engine PromICE ROM > emulator? There were utilities built for Mac, Sun SPARC and MS-DOS (I'm > primarily interested in the last). > > Mine seems to be what's discussed in the V3.0 manual on bitsavers. If > bitsavers has the diskette images, I couldn't find them. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/promice.tar.gz Please let me know when you have it so I can remove it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 21 17:47:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:47:16 -0400 Subject: PromICE 'loadice' software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone have support software for the Grammar Engine PromICE ROM > emulator? There were utilities built for Mac, Sun SPARC and MS-DOS (I'm > primarily interested in the last). > > Mine seems to be what's discussed in the V3.0 manual on bitsavers. If > bitsavers has the diskette images, I couldn't find them. I may be able to come up with something. The creator of the PromICE is a former co-worker of mine and I'm still in contact with him. I'll drop him a line and see what he still has lying about. -ethan From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Sep 21 22:13:12 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 03:13:12 +0000 Subject: P/390E 1GB & ESCIMO Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723AF70F6@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi all! Since it'd been talked about before, I thought I'd share some photos, in case anyone ever wanted to see what this stuff looks like! Here are some pictures of my prototype P/390E board with 1GB of S/390 memory: http://www.flickr.com/photos/87479714 at N05/sets/72157631592809957/ And, after years of searching, and quite a bit of help, I managed to land an "ESCIMO" ESCON channel board from an IBM 3006 S/390 Integrated Server. Just got this in the mail today! It will work with the P/390E board, though I'll probably have to remove the blue extension at the end to get it to fit into my PC Server 330. Here are some pictures of it: http://www.flickr.com/photos/87479714 at N05/sets/72157631592838663/ -Ben From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 21 12:07:46 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:07:46 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <01OKIYHRKZ4U0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> > >ON top for the reason of.. > >What flavor of 3100? It makes a difference. > Do you mean it makes a difference as to what signals appear on the DA-15? The 3100 Cameron was asking about the video signals on and the 3100 I have which does not seem to pass the keyboard and mouse signals to the DA-15 connector are both model 76's. The 3100 I ran double headed some years ago was probably a model 30 or model 40 I've still got it somewhere but I haven't run it for a while now. I can't remember whether it passes the keyboard and mouse signals to the DA-15. My VAXStation 2000's definately pass the keyboard and mouse signals to the DA-15 as there is nowhere else to get them :-) > >I ask as I have 8 of them and no more than two of any variant. >The VS3100 series was not a monolythic model but the generic designation >for a group of system. > I have a few Microvax 3100's but I don't think I have any other variations of VAXStation 3100. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > >Peter Coghlan wrote: >>> Got it. I'll verify the connector when it arrives. I do know that I have a >>> DA-15 to 3BNC connector around here, though I *thought* it was for a >>> Macintosh. Do you know the pinout? When I look for DA-15 video pinouts I >>> keep getting Mac ones. >>> >>> >> >> (Do the Mac people not call it a DB-15? :-) >> >> It's the same as for a VAXstation 2000 and I have a manual for that which >> has the pinouts. Hmmm. Perhaps it's only the VS2000 that also passes the >> keyboard and mouse signals through that connector - there is no room for >> more connectors on that machine. >> >> The video signals are: >> >> 1. Red >> 2. RGB ground >> 10. Green >> 11. Blue >> >> There is also a monochrome video signal available from the frame buffer on the >> system board which is not usually used if you have one of the optional colour >> graphics cards: >> >> 3. Monochrome ground >> 9. Monochrome video >> >> If you make up an DA-15M - DA-15F adapter to get at these, you can probably >> run your VS3100 double headed. I've done it with a GPX graphics card and VMS. >> I assume it is also possible with an SPX graphics card. I can't see why not. >> >> (I remember our sales guy's jaw nearly hitting the floor when I showed him the >> Decwindows mouse pointer moving from one monitor onto the other :-) >> >> Regards, >> Peter Coghlan. >> > From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Sep 21 18:10:24 2012 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 09:10:24 +1000 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <614B160B-33CA-4021-91DE-14FC1BFCA8F2@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22/09/2012, at 1:47 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Speaking of VMS manual walls, how much of this stuff is online? A fair amount is on-line at HP (http://www.hp.com/go/OpenVMS). I've not encountered a manual that I needed for work not being there (I do OpenVMS sysadmin for about half my working day). Obviously I only need the more current documentation so older VAX related stuff may not be accessible. Disclaimer: I used to work for HP and was an OpenVMS ambassador. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From amh at POBOX.COM Fri Sep 21 18:35:26 2012 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 19:35:26 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B2 software preservation Message-ID: Greetings, I'm in possession of a reasonably complete set of SVR3 media (and associated drivers, diagnostics, etc.) for the AT&T 3B2 on 5.25" QD floppies. Sadly, I no longer have any 3B2 hardware, but with luck one day I may change that. I had planned on imaging and preserving these disks for my own use, if nothing else. But it occurs to me that I don't know how rare they might be, and I might do harm by attempting to read them in an EBay'ed PC floppy drive (albeit with cleaned heads). Is this material sufficiently preserved that I don't need to worry about damaging my copies? I didn't see any 3B2 related bits on bitsavers and a cursory google search didn't turn up much. I have a few disks with duplicate contents, so I risked a test run with Unix dd and got a sane-looking complete image with no I/O errors, and no material shedding off the floppy that I could see. I still need to see if the bits are good at a higher level (I think they are formatted as "S5" filesystems, not sure). But I'd have no problem shipping the floppies to a respected member of the community who does this kind of thing all the time (e.g. bitsavers), if it would be worth their time. thanks, -Andy From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 21 19:18:33 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:18:33 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <01OKJDVRX0RS0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> > >> There is also a monochrome video signal available from the frame buffer on the >> system board which is not usually used if you have one of the optional colour >> graphics cards: >> >> 3. Monochrome ground >> 9. Monochrome video > >What are the specs on this signal? Can I feed it to, say, a composite display? > It's the same as the GPX rate and the lower of the SPX rates - 54kHz horizontal, 60Hz refresh, 1024x864. It is a 1V pk-pk 75 Ohm composite video signal but a TV rate only monitor is not going to like the horizontal frequency. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Fri Sep 21 19:49:02 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 01:49:02 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: proud (soon to be) owner of a VAXstation 3100 Message-ID: <01OKJEK07M2M0000G2@beyondthepale.ie> > >For a VS3100 M76 SPX the video cable is a BC23J. That's the cable I use >with my M76 SPX to connect it to an NEC MultiSync CRT. 15-pin to 3 BNC >connectors. > >The SPX graphics controller is switchable between 60 Hz 1024 x 864 and 66 >Hz 1280 x 1024. > >http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html > That webpage has the correct pinouts listed. However, under the heading "How to connect a Sony Multiscan monitor to a VS3100", it suggests connecting pin 9 on the VAX (monochrome signal) to pin 6 on the monitor (red return). The monitor may well have all the returns connected together so the display may work fine and the incorrect connection may not be noticed but damage could be done to whatever is driving the monochrome signal on the VAXstation system board. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 02:05:37 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 00:05:37 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 software preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505D6341.5090105@gmail.com> On 9/21/2012 4:35 PM, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > Greetings, > > I'm in possession of a reasonably complete set of SVR3 media (and > associated drivers, diagnostics, etc.) for the AT&T 3B2 on 5.25" QD > floppies. Sadly, I no longer have any 3B2 hardware, but with luck one > day I may change that. > > I had planned on imaging and preserving these disks for my own use, if > nothing else. But it occurs to me that I don't know how rare they > might be, and I might do harm by attempting to read them in an EBay'ed > PC floppy drive (albeit with cleaned heads). > > Is this material sufficiently preserved that I don't need to worry > about damaging my copies? I didn't see any 3B2 related bits on > bitsavers and a cursory google search didn't turn up much. > > I have a few disks with duplicate contents, so I risked a test run > with Unix dd and got a sane-looking complete image with no I/O errors, > and no material shedding off the floppy that I could see. I still > need to see if the bits are good at a higher level (I think they are > formatted as "S5" filesystems, not sure). But I'd have no problem > shipping the floppies to a respected member of the community who does > this kind of thing all the time (e.g. bitsavers), if it would be worth > their time. > > thanks, > -Andy They are out there. http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/software/3b2/ has the tape dumps which are actually just images of the floppies after a point. There are a few other places too I can't remember. Last time I had a 3B2 it was fairly easy to find software but, that was a couple years ago. I have all the 3.0, 3.1, and 3.2 disk images downloaded from somewhere else as well. Can't remember where. 4.1 is the one that seems to be lost to history. I had it back in the 90's but, as far as I know all the copies floating around the net are the same partial tar archive and not actually usable for anything. From oldcurmudgeon at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 03:23:51 2012 From: oldcurmudgeon at gmail.com (Old Curmudgeon) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 03:23:51 -0500 Subject: pdp 10 concle ebay? In-Reply-To: <11ba11f8d7278fcda6bcd1cc12197022.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <11ba11f8d7278fcda6bcd1cc12197022.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <505D7597.80603@gmail.com> On 09/21/2012 03:07 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> just noticed this one on ebay sitting at $810 atm >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-10-KI-10-Computer-Console-Panel-Super-Rare-/130768694290?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item1e726bec12 >> > > Very nice. That's going to fetch some serious $$$. > > BTW, anyone know what model wallphone is in one of the pictures? > > Ed > Looks like a Western Electric 2851, like this one: http://www.frillfreephones.com/att28cclstwa.html Frank From spedraja at ono.com Sat Sep 22 04:40:56 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 11:40:56 +0200 Subject: Altos 586 physical diskettes or QIC Tape. Message-ID: This is message that I send from time to time. I got one operative Altos 586. It has the Xenix Kernel damaged, and I don't have diskettes to start the system from them. If someone can do a physical copy of the set of disks available (I don't remember the exact place now) and send it to me, or even a tape to start the system (I'm not sure if this can de done), we can speak about a trade. Contact off list, please. Thanks Sergio From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 22 07:10:40 2012 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 08:10:40 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <505DAAC0.6040305@heeltoe.com> On 9/17/2012 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if > this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of this > unit??? > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 > > > > > Curt > > take this with a grain of salt - it was a long time ago. I seem to recall, dimly, back in the day, that the original prototypes had twiggy drives. I could swear I saw one in Steve Capps or Ronnie Sebok's office at one point. I remember having conversations with someone who I think was the lead designer of the twiggy - they were very proud of that design... We were talking in detail about the design of the foam inside the shipping box of the original mac's. (because adding 5lb's extra to the weight of the mac caused it to fail :-) -brad From cube1 at charter.net Sat Sep 22 09:05:54 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 09:05:54 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2 software preservation In-Reply-To: <505D6341.5090105@gmail.com> References: <505D6341.5090105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505DC5C2.1070207@charter.net> There are several ways of imaging these kinds of floppies on a PeeCee, though I have not done so. I do most of my imaging with either ImageDisk or in DMK format or by using my Catweasel board. I also have a reasonable complete set of v3.1 floppies, and images of them - I think done with dd. I also did dd images and tars of my 3B2's over the network to my PC. On 9/22/2012 2:05 AM, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/21/2012 4:35 PM, Andrew Hoerter wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> I'm in possession of a reasonably complete set of SVR3 media (and >> associated drivers, diagnostics, etc.) for the AT&T 3B2 on 5.25" QD >> floppies. Sadly, I no longer have any 3B2 hardware, but with luck one >> day I may change that. >> >> I had planned on imaging and preserving these disks for my own use, if >> nothing else. But it occurs to me that I don't know how rare they >> might be, and I might do harm by attempting to read them in an EBay'ed >> PC floppy drive (albeit with cleaned heads). >> >> Is this material sufficiently preserved that I don't need to worry >> about damaging my copies? I didn't see any 3B2 related bits on >> bitsavers and a cursory google search didn't turn up much. >> >> I have a few disks with duplicate contents, so I risked a test run >> with Unix dd and got a sane-looking complete image with no I/O errors, >> and no material shedding off the floppy that I could see. I still >> need to see if the bits are good at a higher level (I think they are >> formatted as "S5" filesystems, not sure). But I'd have no problem >> shipping the floppies to a respected member of the community who does >> this kind of thing all the time (e.g. bitsavers), if it would be worth >> their time. >> >> thanks, >> -Andy > > They are out there. http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/software/3b2/ > has the tape dumps which are actually just images of the floppies after > a point. There are a few other places too I can't remember. Last time I > had a 3B2 it was fairly easy to find software but, that was a couple > years ago. I have all the 3.0, 3.1, and 3.2 disk images downloaded from > somewhere else as well. Can't remember where. 4.1 is the one that seems > to be lost to history. I had it back in the 90's but, as far as I know > all the copies floating around the net are the same partial tar archive > and not actually usable for anything. > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sat Sep 22 10:59:53 2012 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 16:59:53 +0100 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: <505CDBC3.5050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <505DE079.1080301@wickensonline.co.uk> On 21/09/12 23:37, Richard wrote: > In article <505CDBC3.5050803 at update.uu.se>, > Pontus writes: > >> I suppose that Manx is a list like that, but I don't know how that list >> was made or if it is complete. > It almost certainly is not complete, even for DEC material which has > always been manx's strength. > > Currently I have been running a beta to allow other editors to make > contributions and that basic UI stuff has been vetted. I need to add > some audit trail type mechanisms so that the changes can be tracked > instead of just overwriting existing data. The manuals supplied in the documentation set complementing the quarterly Sofware Product Library (sometimes referred to as the ConDist - Consolidated Distribution) relate to the products within that particular distribution. Version numbers change, but more importantly so do the products - some are retired whilst others are introduced. For example the December 1995 SPL is the last distribution I have that bundled DEC rdb - the manuals for this are contained on the documentation set (which traditionally is in bookreader format, except for the SPD - Software Product Description and installation notes which are provided with the products themselves in PS/TXT format). The May 1996 distribution contains neither software or documentation. I think as a general rule of thumb the documentation supplied on the HP website relates to the latest supported products on VAX, Alpha and IA64 platforms. I may/may not complete a database of packages contained in the distributions I have - I'm currently working towards that goal but whether it becomes a usable application available over the internet is yet to be seen... Regards, Mark. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 22 12:50:55 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: someone was looking for a Hayes Pocket Edition Modem 2400 Message-ID: <1348336255.29047.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> e-mail me. I'll check the list to see if you were _that_ person, not an impersonator. When I have the time. No disks, just the item and a couple of small manuals. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Sep 22 13:31:38 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:31:38 -0400 Subject: Twiggy Mac?!?!? In-Reply-To: <505DAAC0.6040305@heeltoe.com> References: <4F976182.50500@jbrain.com> <5057667C.70809@atarimuseum.com> <505DAAC0.6040305@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <505E040A.1070007@atarimuseum.com> Thanks for the extra insight Brad... Brad Parker wrote: > On 9/17/2012 2:05 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> I asked a very in the know Mac person and he still doesn't know if >> this is for real or not, can anyone comment as to the validity of >> this unit??? >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTOTYPE-MACINTOSH-128k-COMPUTER-WITH-TWIGGY-5-25-DISK-DRIVE-APPLE-/160884428656?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item2575758f70 >> >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> > > take this with a grain of salt - it was a long time ago. > > I seem to recall, dimly, back in the day, that the original prototypes > had twiggy drives. I could swear I > saw one in Steve Capps or Ronnie Sebok's office at one point. I > remember having conversations with > someone who I think was the lead designer of the twiggy - they were > very proud of that design... > > We were talking in detail about the design of the foam inside the > shipping box of the original mac's. > (because adding 5lb's extra to the weight of the mac caused it to fail > :-) > > -brad > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 13:33:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:33:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: <505CE8AC.23253.14CEC7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 21, 12 03:22:36 pm Message-ID: > > I would guess it's QIC36, which is a low-level 'unformatted' > > interface. I have seen simialr QIC 36 boards for the ISA bus, A > > micorprocessor or microcotnroller , EPROM, 2K or 8K of SRAM, a custom > > 40 pin tape data control IC and glue logic. Often internally they are > > built as ISA-QIC02 and QIC02-QIC36 interfaces on the same board. In > > fact I ahve a QIC02 to QIC36 interfce here that usese the same custom > > IC as a common ISA QIC36 controller (guess where I get spares from > > :-)). > > I don't know, Tony. I've got a couple of QIC36 boards; two are > Wangtek QIC36-to-ISA, the other is a Wangtek QIC36-to-QIC02 > converter. Both have a substantial number of chips, including an MPU I suspect those are the boards I have too. > (8085 in all cases) as well as some analog circuitry for what I > suspect is a data separator, SRAM and ROM. That seems to me to be a > bit beyond the capabilities of an 8035 MCU. The Archive Sidewidner (an wear QIC drive, with an 8" floppy drive form factor) was a QIC 36 unti with a QIC-02-QIC36 interface tagged onto it. IRIC< there's an 8048 i nthe drive and another one in the controller. But that controller has a lot of otehr chips (including a PLL as a data separator IIRC). It's actually 2 PCBs, each about the size of an SA800 logic board. So, yes, I so agree that doing a QIC-02-QIC36 converter in an 8035 with not tht much more is possible impossible. I do wonder why you would need a micorcontorller, RAM, etc on a QIC-02 card, though. the QIC-02 interfaces I've come across (for the PERQ, for ISA, etc) are just a few simple logic chisp. Maybe a PAL fdor address decoding. I wonder if this card does some kind of data buffering. That could use a microcontroller. -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Sep 22 14:02:20 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 12:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: References: <505CE8AC.23253.14CEC7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 21, 12 03:22:36 pm Message-ID: <1348340540.65205.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell I wonder if this card does some kind of data buffering. That could use a microcontroller. -tony C: Is there any possibility this card is for something else entirely? I entertained the notion that it's a floppy disk controller (for 8" drives!). Otherwise I wouldn't care. Never used tape drives. ?I know, I'm dreaming. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 14:07:07 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 14:07:07 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest Message-ID: Greetings from the 7th annual Vintage Computer Festival Midwest! The 'fest is well under way, well-attended and chock full-o-nerds. Updates and occasional pics can be found here: https://twitter.com/vcfmidwest Full pic galleries to come... -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 22 14:25:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 12:25:57 -0700 Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: References: <505CE8AC.23253.14CEC7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 21, 12 03:22:36 pm, Message-ID: <505E10C5.17701.50671@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2012 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if this card does some kind of data buffering. That could use > a microcontroller. That was my suspicion. Performance of QIC drives on 4.77MHz 8088 machines can be somewhat anemic. As you know, starving a streamer is not a great idea, so any buffering would help. --Chuck From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Sep 22 14:52:34 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:52:34 -0400 Subject: Industrial PDP8... Dazzler Message-ID: <000301cd98fb$cfd2e2d0$6f78a870$@sudbrink@verizon.net> So, I imagine I'm not the only one who made an offer on the Dazzler pictured in the Industrial PDP8 lot on ebay. I notice that the picture of the Dazzler has been removed from the lot page, but I didn't get any reply from the seller. I thought I made a pretty good offer, oh well. Anybody on the list get it? Would you mind sharing what you paid? Bill S. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Sep 22 21:20:45 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 19:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member Message-ID: <1348366845.5659.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have just subscribed to this mailing list a few day ago I am interested in GUI based computers I currently have 3 Amiga computers (A500, A1200, sam440) in my collection here is my wanted list are there any other gui based computers that I should add? ????* RiscOS system ARMini ????* GEOS system (Commodore 64 / Commodore 128) ????* Atari ST ????* Apple IIGS ????* Apple Macintosh (68k/PPC only) System 7.5.5 ????* BBC micro (wrote programs using usborne computer books from the 1980 without the hardware) ????* Altair 8800 / IMSAI 8080 reproduction versions --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter? From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Sep 23 10:33:30 2012 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 11:33:30 -0400 Subject: SAM76 source code, documentation? In-Reply-To: <505B2A67.8040100@gmail.com> References: <505AC7AE.8010707@brouhaha.com> <505B2A67.8040100@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Eric Smith wrote: >> Wikipedia says that SAM76 was rewritten in C and that the source code >> and documentation were available. Does anyone actually have it? > > I do... somewhere. > > Peace... Sridhar > > I see the DECUS PDP-10 SAM76 source on trailing-edge: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/decuslib10-11/01/43,50526/sam76.mac.html Other files in the parent. jbdigriz From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 23 11:11:25 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 18:11:25 +0200 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <46c4278ac2aad54e8c01659c950a44e9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:51 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL >>> cartridges? >> >> Yes, I have one and it holds 3 RL packs. > > Pictures? Love to see it. > > -ethan > Ok, I have uploaded 2 pics of the rack mountable RL storage box. On http://www.groenenberg.net/download/pic/ and are named box1 & box2 Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 13:37:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 19:37:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: guess the card - Sysgen 4540 In-Reply-To: <505E10C5.17701.50671@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 22, 12 12:25:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 22 Sep 2012 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wonder if this card does some kind of data buffering. That could use > > a microcontroller. > > That was my suspicion. Performance of QIC drives on 4.77MHz 8088 > machines can be somewhat anemic. As you know, starving a streamer is > not a great idea, so any buffering would help. Indeed yes. The QIC-02 interfce, being a formatted interface, doesn;t depend on the data rate, but if it can't transfer data fast enough to prevent the data buffer in the tape drive from overflowing on a read, or emptying o na write, the resultas are unpleasant (and not waht you might intitiall expect). The drive starts 'washing machining' [1]. It reads a block, the buffer fills, it reads the next block, etc. When the buffer gets full, the tape doesn't stop instantly. It overruns. So the drive has to stop, rewind, read that block again when the host has emptied the buffer a bit. Perfomace goes throgu hthe floor. And wear on tape, ehads and drive motor goes throguh the roof. [1] Think of the motion of the agitator in an old-fashioned top-loader washing machine. The Archive sidewinder came in 2 versions, 30 ips and 90ips. the former was used wit hte PERQ. If you use the latter, it washing-machines like mad. I once covereted one from 90ips to 30 ips (a matter of fitting an extra flip-flop IC on the controller board, changing a few jumpers, and replacing lots of pasisbves in the data separator and read filter sections, and then setting the whole thing up. I also used a Wangtek 90ips drive with my PERQ for a time. I found I could improve peformance a lot, and get it to stop and rewind less frequently, by upgrading the data buffer on the QIC02-QIC36 card from 2K to 8K. This was a matter of changing the SRAM chip and moving a link IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 13:55:18 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 19:55:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348366845.5659.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Sep 22, 12 07:20:45 pm Message-ID: > > I have just subscribed to this mailing list a few day ago Greeitngs ans welcome to the list. > I am interested in GUI based computers > I currently have 3 Amiga computers (A500, A1200, sam440) in my collection > > here is my wanted list are there any other gui based computers that I > should add? > ????* RiscOS system ARMini > ????* GEOS system (Commodore 64 / Commodore 128) > ????* Atari ST > ????* Apple IIGS > ????* Apple Macintosh (68k/PPC only) System 7.5.5 There are many I think. It depends on what you mean by a GUI. DO you incldue windowing systems that had a good command line interpretter, but had some programs that were operated with pointign device (mouse), pull-down menus, etc? I would, or at least I'd regard them as a close ancestor. With that in mind : I notice you haven't included any of the 'classic' wokstations. Things like : Suns (68K machines up to the Sun 3, Sparc thereafter, basically. Yes, there was an odd 80386-based one...)_ VAXstations Apollos Classic PERQs. That's a PERQ 1, 1a, 2T1 or 2T2. OK, the 2T4 too, but you are very unlikely to find one of those. PERQ AGW3300 (PERQ 3a). A 68020 workstation HP9000s after hte 900/200 series. Torch XXX (and Quad-X). A strange unix machine with a GUI fornt-end where a lot of operations got you a shell running in a window. For smaller machines, there were several graphicl front-ennds for MS-DOS. And Microsoft Windows ran on non-IBM-compatibles. IMHO the HP150 version of Windows is interesting for that reason. There was a graphical frontend for OS-9 (Microware's OS, nothing to do with the Mac) on the CoCo3 called, IIRC, Multiview. > ????* BBC micro (wrote programs using usborne computer books from the > 1980 without the hardware) The Beeb should be very easy to find unless you want soem exotic version, likw an Acorn Cambridge WOrkstation or an Acorn Business Computer. > ????* Altair 8800 / IMSAI 8080 reproduction versions I'd go for an HP9830. It's easier to find than an original Altair, it was the first comptue that was an all-in-one machine that you put on a desk/bench, plgged into the mains and typed BASIC on. I'ts certainly a candidate for 'first personal computer. You don't say where you are in the world (this is an international list), but your comment about the BBC micro suggests the UK. ALl the machines I've mentioend can be found in the UK. The CoCo 3 was never officially sol here, there was a version sold in Australian with PAL video output (at least according to the service manual). But the US model can be converted for 240V mains (replace the transformer, a CoCo3 transformer can be made to fit) and used wit han NTSC-rate monitor (most modern TVs can do this). One final point (for the moment). You seem to be interested in the real hardware, which is good, but do rmemeber it will need repairs from time to time. Or you might buy a non-working machine. There are plenty of people here who will help you sort out non-workign hardwre, but ultimately it's you who have to make the measurements and do the repairs. I am not trying to put you off. Plenty of people here have learnt how to repair comptuers, so you can too. I have no idea what your level of electorincs knowledge is either. I am jsut saying that you might need to learn some electronics if you don't already know it. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 15:24:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 16:24:31 -0400 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B908832A@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <46c4278ac2aad54e8c01659c950a44e9.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 12:11 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:51 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL >>>> cartridges? > Ok, I have uploaded 2 pics of the rack mountable RL storage box. > On http://www.groenenberg.net/download/pic/ and are named box1 & box2 Very cool. Thanks for sharing that. -ethan From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Sep 23 16:20:37 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 21:20:37 +0000 Subject: IBM 9663-001 Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723AF9682@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Hi there! I know there doesn't seem to be a lot of mainframe hobbying happening on this list, but anyone here know anything about the 9663-001 "Snow Leopard" ESCON PCI board? It's based on one of those Artic960's with a pretty big AIB. So far, the most info I can find tends to be about TPF and the EOCF/2 system for managing it. You could also supposedly use it with LANRES and NetWare... Anyway, if anyone has any info, it'd be appreciated! -Ben From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 23 16:21:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 14:21:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freebie... Message-ID: I've got a DEC Ethernet loopback plug that I have no use for. It's got a 15 pin D shell connector (thick ethernet?) and a green status LED on the opposite end. The part number cast into the dongle is 12-222196-02. Anyone that wants it can have it for postage. tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Sep 23 19:44:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 17:44:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freebie... Message-ID: <1348447477.44777.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ooh ooh gimmee gimmee gimmee ------------------------------ On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 2:21 PM PDT geneb wrote: >I've got a DEC Ethernet loopback plug that I have no use for. > >It's got a 15 pin D shell connector (thick ethernet?) and a green status LED on the opposite end. The part number cast into the dongle is 12-222196-02. > >Anyone that wants it can have it for postage. > >tnx! > >g. > >-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 22:35:01 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:35:01 -0700 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit setup ? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Sep 23 22:41:37 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 03:41:37 +0000 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/23/12 9:11 AM, "E. Groenenberg" wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 1:51 AM, E. Groenenberg >>wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone know if there was ever such a thing for RL >>>> cartridges? >>> >>> Yes, I have one and it holds 3 RL packs. >> >> Pictures? Love to see it. >> >> -ethan >> > >Ok, I have uploaded 2 pics of the rack mountable RL storage box. >On http://www.groenenberg.net/download/pic/ and are named box1 & box2 > >Ed > > Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 22:56:10 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:56:10 -0500 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: sounds like its full of a couple systems worth of cards reading that add witch sound to be a nice collection of stuff On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 10:35 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did > they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit setup ? > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/**sby/sys/3292027501.html > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 22:57:57 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:57:57 -0500 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kool i just store the 5 i got on a shelf for now hopefully one of these days i can figure out how to actualy use the damed things on my heathkit h11 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 23 22:58:25 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 21:58:25 -0600 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/23/2012 9:41 PM, Ian King wrote: >> > > Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) Edit ^retro > > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Sep 23 23:08:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 21:08:12 -0700 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505FDCAC.70808@gmail.com> On 9/23/2012 8:56 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > sounds like its full of a couple systems worth of cards reading that add > witch sound to be a nice collection of stuff > > If they actually powered it up I wonder what would happen. Smoke and fire ? From jws at jwsss.com Sun Sep 23 23:18:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 21:18:40 -0700 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505FDF20.9060206@jwsss.com> On 9/23/2012 8:35 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did > they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit > setup ? > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html > > I have several which look like that. You have to pull the extras to de configure it to do whatever you actually need. He states there are three processors in the box. The good thing about the Compupro chassis was that it could power all that. This sounds like a system retired, with all the spares shoved into it. I have a compupro which was bought by a mob in the KC area who sold a bill of goods to a friend of ours who didn't check with us before signing and parted with about 35,000 for a ill concieved project. The good news was the guys bought a system with a 1/2" cipher and SMD controller + 286 in a compupro. Also 64 serial lines. Never worked but is a wonderful system to have. We helped the fellow sue the clowns who made him do it, and luckily ended up with the system. I'd love to have this system, but can't afford the 1k asking price. jim From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 24 00:11:48 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did they > just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit setup ? > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html That's a CompuPro 8/16. They were among the most powerful S100 machines available. You'd have a master CPU[1], several slave CPUs, and usually several RAM and serial cards. RAM and serial cards, I suspect, make up the bulk of the card compliment. It seems legit, but I'd want to know exactly what the cards are before making an offer. I recently sold one of these with nine cards. See http://www.ebay.com/itm/230845482363. I think that guy is asking about $600 too much. [1] CompuPro had ordinary Z80 cards, i8085, i8086, i8088, 286, 386 and M68k. The three latter ones still go for quite a bit of money. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 00:13:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:13:53 -0700 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <505FDF20.9060206@jwsss.com> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> <505FDF20.9060206@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <505FEC11.70702@gmail.com> On 9/23/2012 9:18 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 9/23/2012 8:35 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. >> Did they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a >> legit setup ? >> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html >> >> > > I have a compupro which was bought by a mob in the KC area who sold a > bill of goods to a friend of ours who didn't check with us before > signing and parted with about 35,000 for a ill concieved project. > Mob ? Like mafia mob or like group of people mob ? From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 00:26:48 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 22:26:48 -0700 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <505FEF18.6030104@gmail.com> On 9/23/2012 10:11 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 23 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > >> I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. >> Did they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a >> legit setup ? >> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html > > That's a CompuPro 8/16. They were among the most powerful S100 > machines available. You'd have a master CPU[1], several slave CPUs, > and usually several RAM and serial cards. RAM and serial cards, I > suspect, make up the bulk of the card compliment. It seems legit, but > I'd want to know exactly what the cards are before making an offer. > > I recently sold one of these with nine cards. See > http://www.ebay.com/itm/230845482363. I think that guy is asking > about $600 too much. > > [1] CompuPro had ordinary Z80 cards, i8085, i8086, i8088, 286, 386 and > M68k. The three latter ones still go for quite a bit of money. > Amazing you could run all that off two caps and a transformer. Yea I realize all the voltage regulation was done on board but, still. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 24 01:34:40 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 08:34:40 +0200 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8f801bf29a6385a9fc1e10f8e11234fd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 9/23/2012 9:41 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> >> Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) > Edit ^retro >> Should be easy, it's basically a sheet metal box with a vacuformed sheet of plastic on the left and right where the packs rest on. The front is a standard panel whereby the black plastic has it's edges curved towards the back. I guess that cutting a standard panel carefully and sanding the cut will be a suitable replacement. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 01:48:51 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 01:48:51 -0500 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <8f801bf29a6385a9fc1e10f8e11234fd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> <8f801bf29a6385a9fc1e10f8e11234fd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: if u guys wana make some look here might be one near u that has equitment u can use to do it http://makezine.com/groups/index.csp On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > > On 9/23/2012 9:41 PM, Ian King wrote: > > > >> > >> Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) > > Edit ^retro > >> > > Should be easy, it's basically a sheet metal box with a vacuformed sheet > of plastic on the left and right where the packs rest on. > The front is a standard panel whereby the black plastic has it's > edges curved towards the back. > I guess that cutting a standard panel carefully and sanding the > cut will be a suitable replacement. > > Ed > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 02:27:35 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 08:27:35 +0100 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: References: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> <8f801bf29a6385a9fc1e10f8e11234fd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <50600B67.6030703@gmail.com> On 24/09/2012 07:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if u guys wana make some look here might be one near u that has equitment u > can use to do it http://makezine.com/groups/index.csp Some FABLabs have them... http://www.fabfoundation.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=61 > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >>> On 9/23/2012 9:41 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) >>> Edit ^retro >> Should be easy, it's basically a sheet metal box with a vacuformed sheet >> of plastic on the left and right where the packs rest on. >> The front is a standard panel whereby the black plastic has it's >> edges curved towards the back. >> I guess that cutting a standard panel carefully and sanding the >> cut will be a suitable replacement. >> >> Ed >> >> -- >> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. >> >> -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 03:04:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 03:04:52 -0500 Subject: Rack storage for RL cartridges? In-Reply-To: <50600B67.6030703@gmail.com> References: <505FDA61.3080608@jetnet.ab.ca> <8f801bf29a6385a9fc1e10f8e11234fd.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <50600B67.6030703@gmail.com> Message-ID: forgot about that network On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 2:27 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > On 24/09/2012 07:48, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> if u guys wana make some look here might be one near u that has equitment >> u >> can use to do it http://makezine.com/groups/**index.csp >> > > > Some FABLabs have them... > > http://www.fabfoundation.org/**index.php?option=com_content&** > view=article&id=46&Itemid=61 > > > > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 1:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> On 9/23/2012 9:41 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks, Ed! Now I can get the repro monkeys to work on it.... :-) >>>>> >>>> Edit ^retro >>>> >>> Should be easy, it's basically a sheet metal box with a vacuformed sheet >>> of plastic on the left and right where the packs rest on. >>> The front is a standard panel whereby the black plastic has it's >>> edges curved towards the back. >>> I guess that cutting a standard panel carefully and sanding the >>> cut will be a suitable replacement. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> -- >>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >>> Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > From tingox at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 08:05:19 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 15:05:19 +0200 Subject: AT&T 3B2 software preservation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 1:35 AM, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > Is this material sufficiently preserved that I don't need to worry > about damaging my copies? I didn't see any 3B2 related bits on > bitsavers and a cursory google search didn't turn up much. > I found some bits here: http://www.go-ev.com/dda/3B2/Docs.html I don't know if that is what you are asking about. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Sep 22 10:31:20 2012 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 09:31:20 -0600 Subject: VMS grey wall of manuals In-Reply-To: References: <505CDBC3.5050803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: *I have the following VMS orange (v4.x) & grey (v5.x) manuals scanned: * * * *ORANGE WALL*DateVolumeVMSDocument NumberDescriptionJul 19851A4.2AA-Z101B-TEIntroduction to the VAX/VMS document setSep 19841A4.0AA-Z102A-TEVAX/VMS GlossaryJul 1985 1A4.2AA-Z104B-TEVAX/VMS Master IndexSep 19841B4.0AA-Z105A-TEVAX/VMS Release Notes 4.0Jan 19851B4.1AA-EF55A-TEVAX/VMS release Notes 4.1Jul 19851B4.3 AA-Z106A-TEVAX/VMS Release Notes 4.2Apr 19861B4.4AA-Z107A-TEVAX/VMS Release Notes 4.4Sep 19861B4.5AA-JF88A-TEVAX/VMS Release Notes 4.5Jun 19871B4.5 AA-KN06A-TEVAX/VMS Release Notes 4.6Jul 198524.2AA-Z200B-TEVAX/VMS DCL DictionarySep 19843A4.0AA-Z300A-TEVAX EDT Reference ManualJul 19853A4.2 AA-Z301B-TEVAX DIGITAL Runoff (DSR) Reference ManualJul 19853B4.2AA-EC64B-TEVAX Text Processing Utility Reference ManualJul 19853B4.2AA-Z302A-TEUser's Guide to EVESep 19844A4.0AA-Z414A-TEAccess Control List editor Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z400A-TEVAX/VMS Accounting Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z404A-TEVAX/VMS Analyze/RMS_File Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z406A-TEVAX/VMS Authorize Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0 AA-Z407A-TEVAX/VMS Backup Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z435A-teVAX/VMS Bad block Locator Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z410A-TEVAX/VMS DECnet test Sender/DECnet Test Receiver Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A 4.0AA-Z408A-TEVAX/VMS Command Definition Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A 4.0AA-Z409A-TEVAX/VMS Convert and Convert/Reclaim Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A4.0AA-Z412A-TEVAX/VMS DELTA/XDELTA Utility Reference ManualSep 19844A 4.0AA-Z413A-TEVAX/VMS Disk Quota Utility Reference ManualJul 19854A4.2 AA-Z402B-TEVAX/VMS Error Log Utility reference ManualJul 19854A4.2 AA-Z416B-TEVAX/VMS Exchange Utility reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z415A-TEVAX/VMS File Definition Language Facility Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z417A-TEVAX/VMS Install Utility Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z436A-TEVAX/VMS LAT Control Program reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z419A-TEVAX/VMS Librarian Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z420A-TEVAX/VMS Linker Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0 AA-Z421A-TEVAX/VMS Mail Utility Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z422A-TEVAX/VMS Message Utility Reference ManualApr 19864B4.4AA-Z423B-TEVAX/VMS Monitor Utility Reference ManualSep 19844B4.0AA-Z424A-TEVAX/VMS Mount Utility Reference ManualJul 19854C4.2AA-Z425A-TEVAX/VMS Network Control Program Reference ManualSep 19844C4.0AA-Z426A-TEVAX/VMS Patch Utility Reference ManualSep 19844C4.0AA-Z427A-TEVAX/VMS Phone Utility Reference ManualSep 1984 4C4.0AA-Z430A-TEVAX/VMS Show Cluster Utility Reference ManualSep 19844C4.0 AA-Z431A-TEVAX/VMS Sort/Merge Utility Reference ManualSep 19844C4.0 AA-Z432A-TEVAX/VMS SUMSLP Utility Reference ManualApr 19864D4.4AA-Z411C-TEVAX/VMS Debugger Reference ManualJul 19854D4.2AA-Z429B-TEVAX/VMS System dump Analyzer Reference ManualSep 19844D4.0AA-Z433A-TEVAX/VMS System Generation Utility Reference ManualSep 19844D4.0AA-Z434A-TEVAX/VMS Verify Utility Reference ManualApr 19865A4.4AA-Z500B-TEIntroduction to VAX/VMS System RoutinesApr 19865A4.4AA-Z501B-TEVAX/VMS System Services ManualSep 19845B4.0 AA-Z503A-TEVAX Record Management Services Reference ManualSep 19845B4.0 AA-Z503A-TEVAX/VMS Utility Reference ManualJul 19855C4.2AA-Z502B-TEVAX/VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference ManualJul 19855D4.2AA-Z505B-TEVAX/VMS Run-Time Library Routines Reference ManualApr 198664.4AA-Z600C-TEVAX/VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part ISep 198464.0AA-Z600C-TEVAX/VMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part IISep 198474.0AA-Z700A-TEVAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference ManualSep 198484.0AA-Z800A-TEVAX/VMS System Messages and recovery Procedurs reference ManualSep 1984-4.0AA-Y515A-TEGuide to VAX/VMS Performance ManagementJul 1985-4.2AA-Y512B-TEGuide to Netorking on VAX/VMSSep 1984-4.0AA-Y508A-TEGuide to VAX/VMS File ApplicationsJul 1985- 4.2AA-FB84A-TEGuide to Creating Modular Procedures on VAX/VMSSep 1984-4.0 AA-Y501A-TEGuide to Using DCL and Command Procedures on VAX/VMSSep 1984-4.0 AA-Y513A-TEGuide to VAXclustersJun 1987-MicroVMS 4.6AA-KM46A-TNMicroVMS Installation and Operations Guide: VaxStation I,II and MicroVAX I,IIJun 1987 -MicroVMS 4.6AA-KN07A-TNMicroVMS Release Notes, Version 4.6Mar 1988---DEC Module List1982---VAX Technical SummaryMay 1982--EK-00R80-PS-001R80 Disk Drive Pocket Service GuideOct 1982--EK-UDA50-UG-002UDA50 User GuideJun 1984- -EK-DHU11-UG-001DHU11 Interface User Guide1982--EK-ORA81-UG-001RA81 Disk Drive User Guide1983--EK-DEUNA-UG-001DEUNA User GuideMay 1982-- EK-VAXAR-RM-001VAX-11 Architecture Reference ManualFeb 1977--EK-FS002-OP-001Unibus Troubleshooting User ManualMar 1981--EK-KA750-TD-002VAX-11/750 Central Processor Unit Technical DescriptionOct 1985--900-00030UHA-11 Product Specification and User Manual (Computer Upgrade Corporation)----System Performance Tuning on DEC VAX/VMS (EMC Corporation) * GREY WALL* Apr 1988-5.0AA-LA01A-TEVMS Master IndexApr 1988-5.0AA-LA02A-TEVMS General User Master IndexApr 1988-5.0AA-LA12A-TEVMS DCL DictionaryApr 1988-5.0 AA-LA13A-TEGuide to VMS Text ProcessingJun 1989-5.2AA-LA14B-TEVAX Text Processing Utility ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA17A-TEVMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part IApr 1988-5.0AA-LA18A-TEVMS System Messages and Recovery Procedures Reference Manual: Part IIApr 1988- 5.0AA-LA23A-TEVMS System Management Master IndexApr 1988-5.0AA-LA26A-TEVMS SYSMAN Utility ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA27A-TEVMS VAXcluster ManualApr 1988- 5.0AA-LA56A-TEVMS Programming Master IndexJun 1989-5.2AA-LA59B-TEVMS Debugger ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA66A-TEIntroduction to VMS System RoutinesApr 1988-5.0AA-LA67A-TEVMS Utility Routines ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA72A-TEVMS RTL Mathematics (MTH$) ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA74A-TEVMS RTL Parallel Processing (PPL$) ManualApr 1988-5.0AA-LA84A-TEVMS I/O User's Reference Manual: Part IApr 1988-5.0AA-LA88A-TEVMS Device SupportApr 1988-5.0 AA-LA89A-TEVAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference ManualJun 1989-5.2 AA-NG62A-TEEVE Reference Manual On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <505CDBC3.5050803 at update.uu.se>, > Pontus writes: > > > I suppose that Manx is a list like that, but I don't know how that list > > was made or if it is complete. > > It almost certainly is not complete, even for DEC material which has > always been manx's strength. > > Currently I have been running a beta to allow other editors to make > contributions and that basic UI stuff has been vetted. I need to add > some audit trail type mechanisms so that the changes can be tracked > instead of just overwriting existing data. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book < > http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> > The Computer Graphics Museum > The Terminals Wiki > Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) > From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Sep 24 04:45:49 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 11:45:49 +0200 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC Message-ID: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> Hi A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to let go of his entire collection pretty fast. http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 I don't know the story, I don't know him outside of the forums but there are some really nice machines (even DEC) in there for a person with some storage space and a big car. Regards, Pontus. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 24 11:18:29 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 09:18:29 -0700 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> On 9/24/12 2:45 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to let go of his entire collection pretty fast. > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 > > I don't know the story, I don't know him outside of the forums but there are some really nice machines (even DEC) in there for a person with some storage space and a big car. > > Regards, > Pontus. > > FYI "The undisclosed situation here has further gone sour. :( Just get in your car and get over here. Truck, trailer, hatchback, roof rack...whatever. Just get this stuff out of my house. It all has to go. From thousands of floppy disks to an R3K Indigo signed by Gavin Blair." From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 24 11:22:08 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 09:22:08 -0700 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> On 9/24/12 9:18 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/24/12 2:45 AM, Pontus wrote: >> Hi >> >> A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to let go of his entire collection pretty fast. >> >> http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 >> >> I don't know the story, I don't know him outside of the forums but there are some really nice machines (even DEC) in there for a person with some storage space and a big car. >> >> Regards, >> Pontus. >> >> > > FYI > > "The undisclosed situation here has further gone sour. :( > Just get in your car and get over here. Truck, trailer, hatchback, roof rack...whatever. > Just get this stuff out of my house. It all has to go. From thousands of floppy disks to an R3K Indigo signed by Gavin Blair." > Just to be clear, this was another message from Vancouver, not a message from me. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 11:48:22 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 09:48:22 -0700 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Is this an 11/44 in the rack in this picture? http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/computer_room/album135/100_2941.JPG.html Looks like some good stuff for someone to collect. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Sep 24 11:56:33 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:56:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who can identify the platform, these CDC diagnostic floppies were made/formatted for? Message-ID: <1348505793.99427.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, I'm holding in my hands four 5,25 inch floppies from CDC, more specificly from their division Magnetic Peripherals. These came with some FSD-drives a couple of years back. Google turned up with not a single hit, when looking for more information about these floppies. They are marked with "1244-00,? souble side, single/double density, soft sector, 35/40 track" regarding their type. That's written on the etiquette: 1. SDI diag. disk PN: 92989602 2. SMD-0/E diag. disk PN: 93290704 3. SMDSTD, SMD-0 PN: 93290703 4. ISI diag. disk, PN: 93845702 ? I'd like to save the contents and maybe use it, as well, but I have no clue for which platform/system they are. Can anybody help me on that? Thanks alot in advance for your help! Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Sep 24 11:56:33 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:56:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Who can identify the platform, these CDC diagnostic floppies were made/formatted for? Message-ID: <1348505793.99427.YahooMailNeo@web133104.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, I'm holding in my hands four 5,25 inch floppies from CDC, more specificly from their division Magnetic Peripherals. These came with some FSD-drives a couple of years back. Google turned up with not a single hit, when looking for more information about these floppies. They are marked with "1244-00,? souble side, single/double density, soft sector, 35/40 track" regarding their type. That's written on the etiquette: 1. SDI diag. disk PN: 92989602 2. SMD-0/E diag. disk PN: 93290704 3. SMDSTD, SMD-0 PN: 93290703 4. ISI diag. disk, PN: 93845702 ? I'd like to save the contents and maybe use it, as well, but I have no clue for which platform/system they are. Can anybody help me on that? Thanks alot in advance for your help! Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 24 13:08:37 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:08:37 +0200 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Is this an 11/44 in the rack in this picture? > > http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/computer_room/album135/100_2941.JPG.html > > Looks like some good stuff for someone to collect. > Looks like an 11/84 to me. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 24 13:09:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:09:46 -0400 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5060A1EA.3070708@neurotica.com> On 09/24/2012 12:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Is this an 11/44 in the rack in this picture? > > http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/computer_room/album135/100_2941.JPG.html No. It's likely an 11/24, or possibly an 11/84. > Looks like some good stuff for someone to collect. Yes, quite. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Sep 24 13:16:39 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:16:39 +0200 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5060A387.4010701@update.uu.se> On 09/24/2012 06:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Is this an 11/44 in the rack in this picture? > > http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/computer_room/album135/100_2941.JPG.html > > Looks like some good stuff for someone to collect. It's an 11/84 with some drives and other stuff: http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16724917 http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16724320&p=7346923#p7346923 Cheers, Pontus. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 24 16:03:24 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <5060A387.4010701@update.uu.se> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <506087D5.7010707@bitsavers.org> <506088B0.90008@bitsavers.org> <5060A387.4010701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Pontus wrote: > On 09/24/2012 06:48 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Is this an 11/44 in the rack in this picture? >> >> http://www.nekochan.net/gallery2/v/computer_room/album135/100_2941.JPG.html >> >> Looks like some good stuff for someone to collect. > > It's an 11/84 with some drives and other stuff: > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16724917 > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16724320&p=7346923#p7346923 If this happened three weeks ago, I would have picked up at least that 11/84. I was in Bellingham, WA for the week. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 24 16:04:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120924140327.O58694@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did > they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit setup ? > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html "Once every slot is full, upgrade to a motherboard with more slots." From india_50 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 16:36:03 2012 From: india_50 at yahoo.com (Subramanian Iyer) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1348522563.95378.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://minkenberg-rolluiken.nl/wp-content/plugins/akismet/google.html?to=gwhj.jieg&hj=cym.gr&shc=sydy From india_50 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 16:36:09 2012 From: india_50 at yahoo.com (Subramanian Iyer) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:36:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://venelles-en-vie.fr/wp-content/plugins/akismet/google.html?eefv=at.hsm&dh=te.ww&sgb=tnnr From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 17:05:49 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:05:49 -0500 Subject: In-Reply-To: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: spam? On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Subramanian Iyer wrote: > > http://venelles-en-vie.fr/wp-content/plugins/akismet/google.html?eefv=at.hsm&dh=te.ww&sgb=tnnr > From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 19:00:30 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:00:30 -0700 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. Message-ID: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> I want to low level format some drives and I understand this is what I'll need to do it. The Customer Diag tape apparently doesn't let you. Google tells me it was once talked about here on the list and what I am after is : AQ-GM5AN-DN MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 I found something on the web but, I am pretty sure it is just the customer version and I can't get it to boot anyway. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 24 19:18:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:18:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Subramanian Iyer wrote: > >> http://venelles-en-vie.fr/wp-content/plugins/akismet/google.html?eefv=at.hsm&dh=te.ww&sgb=tnnr > > > spam? It would appear so. I received at least two of these with different hostnames but both redirect to the same fake website/domain. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 24 19:25:01 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:25:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I want to low level format some drives and I understand this is what I'll > need to do it. The Customer Diag tape apparently doesn't let you. Google > tells me it was once talked about here on the list and what I am after is : > > AQ-GM5AN-DN MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 > > I found something on the web but, I am pretty sure it is just the customer > version and I can't get it to boot anyway. I have a MVII_D-C.tar.gz and MVII_D-M.tar.gz from 2002 if those are what you are looking for. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 24 19:46:54 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 19:46:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I want to low level format some drives and I understand this is what I'll > need to do it. The Customer Diag tape apparently doesn't let you. Google > tells me it was once talked about here on the list and what I am after is : > > AQ-GM5AN-DN MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 > > I found something on the web but, I am pretty sure it is just the customer > version and I can't get it to boot anyway. If it is this it then I have the files you are looking for. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2004-November/110798.html I've put them online here: http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/MicroVAX_II_Diagnostic_Maintenance_Tapes/ From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 19:52:22 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 17:52:22 -0700 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50610046.4000404@gmail.com> On 9/24/2012 5:46 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > >> I want to low level format some drives and I understand this is what >> I'll need to do it. The Customer Diag tape apparently doesn't let >> you. Google tells me it was once talked about here on the list and >> what I am after is : >> >> AQ-GM5AN-DN MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 >> >> I found something on the web but, I am pretty sure it is just the >> customer version and I can't get it to boot anyway. > > If it is this it then I have the files you are looking for. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2004-November/110798.html > > I've put them online here: > > http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) > com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/MicroVAX_II_Diagnostic_Maintenance_Tapes/ Awesome. Thanks. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 20:05:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 18:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions Message-ID: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find this very hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright unwholesome. If you should be made aware of these intentionally super secret cabals, its your responsibility to expose them immediately. Thank you. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 24 20:10:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:10:34 -0400 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> On 09/24/2012 09:05 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - > quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find > this very hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright > unwholesome. If you should be made aware of these intentionally super > secret cabals, its your responsibility to expose them immediately. > Thank you. Huh? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 20:19:02 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:19:02 -0400 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Subramanian Iyer > >wrote: >> >> http://venelles-en-vie.fr/wp-**content/plugins/akismet/** >>> google.html?eefv=at.hsm&dh=te.**ww&sgb=tnnr >>> >> >> >> spam? >> > > It would appear so. I received at least two of these with different > hostnames but both redirect to the same fake website/domain. > What are they trying to accomplish? You'd think they'd know better than to spam a mailing list full of computer nerds. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 24 22:19:46 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 20:19:46 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: > > its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, > unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use of differential signalling... --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 24 22:32:38 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:32:38 -0600 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <506125D6.6030303@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/24/2012 9:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, >> unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. > > I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use of > differential signalling... > > --Chuck And don't forget proper Termination at the ends. I think this needs to be the end of this thread. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 24 22:56:58 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:56:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, >> unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. > > I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use of > differential signalling... Braided or foil? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Sep 24 22:59:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:59:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <1348522569.47073.YahooMailNeo@web125704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Subramanian Iyer >> >>> http://venelles-en-vie.fr/wp-**content/plugins/akismet/** >>>> google.html?eefv=at.hsm&dh=te.**ww&sgb=tnnr >>> >>> spam? >> >> It would appear so. I received at least two of these with different >> hostnames but both redirect to the same fake website/domain. > > What are they trying to accomplish? You'd think they'd know better than > to spam a mailing list full of computer nerds. They don't know who or where they are spamming. Their software does everything automatically. What's rare is that it actually makes it through to the list. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 24 23:16:53 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:16:53 -0700 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC (OS/2) In-Reply-To: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50613035.5030507@jwsss.com> funny looking at his photos and being a snoop, I looked at books and one shelf of software. I had to chuckle at the OS/2 he had. This weekend a couple of use were talking and OS/2 was mentioned (I have a VM with it). the other guys said they have copies of OS/2 at home still in the shrink wrap. This guy does too. I think I understand why OS/2 didn't do so well. jim On 9/24/2012 2:45 AM, Pontus wrote: > > A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to > let go of his entire collection pretty fast. > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 24 23:18:52 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:18:52 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <506130AC.9040709@jwsss.com> On 9/24/2012 8:56 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - >>> quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. >> >> I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use of >> differential signalling... > > Braided or foil? > > From the comment, maybe beryllium copper? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 24 23:24:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Sep 24, 12 08:19:46 pm" Message-ID: <201209250424.q8P4OK1v14483532@floodgap.com> > > its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, > > unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. > > I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use of > differential signalling... I just disconnect unnecessary lines. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never eat more than you can lift. -- Miss Piggy ---------------------------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Sep 24 23:40:11 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:40:11 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506130AC.9040709@jwsss.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> <506130AC.9040709@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <506135AB.7050109@gmail.com> On 9/24/2012 9:18 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 9/24/2012 8:56 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>>> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - >>>> quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. >>> >>> I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use >>> of differential signalling... >> >> Braided or foil? >> >> > From the comment, maybe beryllium copper? Did I miss something that happened on this list ? What was the OP on about ? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 25 02:20:13 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:20:13 +0100 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: <50610046.4000404@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <50610046.4000404@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 25 September 2012 01:52, mc68010 wrote: > On 9/24/2012 5:46 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> >> I want to low level format some drives and I understand this is what >>> I'll need to do it. The Customer Diag tape apparently doesn't let you. >>> Google tells me it was once talked about here on the list and what I am >>> after is : >>> >>> AQ-GM5AN-DN MVII DIAG MAINT TK50 >>> >>> I found something on the web but, I am pretty sure it is just the >>> customer version and I can't get it to boot anyway. >>> >> >> If it is this it then I have the files you are looking for. >> >> http://www.classiccmp.org/**pipermail/cctech/2004-**November/110798.html >> >> I've put them online here: >> >> http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/** >> MicroVAX_II_Diagnostic_**Maintenance_Tapes/ >> > > > Awesome. Thanks. > The alternative is to find someone with a MicroVAX 2000 (or get one of your own), that can also do the formatting for you. Regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 25 02:27:08 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:27:08 +0100 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt RMA > Sent: 25 September 2012 08:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. > > > The alternative is to find someone with a MicroVAX 2000 (or > get one of your own), that can also do the formatting for you. > Doesn't that format RD53s and RD54s slightly sub-optimally? Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 02:32:39 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:32:39 -0600 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead Message-ID: The Black Hole surplus in Los Alamos was supposed to close Monday, but they still have a crapload of stuff they are trying to sell, so they will continue to be open on a weird schedule. I went down there this Sunday (yes, they were open on Sunday for a change) to get the 3 Tektronix RGB monitors that go with the Tektronix 4125 that I pulled out of there on my last trip. (Returned with a 5x8 Uhaul covered trailer filled to the top and my car full as well, plus a little overflow on Will Donzelli's trailer.) While rummaging around one last time, I pulled out some more odd non-PS/2 keyboards (VT220, Intergraph, Cray Viking, Amiga, HP 264x), a Tektronix digitizing tablet w/puck & PSU, some manuals (mostly Tektronix), a case of DEC fanfold paper tape and 5 cases of punch cards. Still remaining down there that might be of interest to others: - VAX 3500 in the pedestal case - early model TI Silent 700 desktop - 8 late model Silent 700s with the snap-on case - Televideo 921 terminal (no keyboard) - ASR33 on a pedestal, kinda rough shape - Tektronix 3621 hard copy unit - lots of punched cards, NIB, some in case boxes (5 boxes per case) - paper tape, some of it whole boxes - mylar tape - 2x IBM model 26 card punch - lots of Friden calculators - several Friden flexowriter desks - 2x modcomp racks, looks like they were for disks, but the disks are gone and the wiring harnesses are cut - lots of chart paper rolls, generally free -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 25 02:54:55 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 08:54:55 +0100 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25 September 2012 08:27, wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jarratt RMA > > Sent: 25 September 2012 08:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. > > > > > > The alternative is to find someone with a MicroVAX 2000 (or > > get one of your own), that can also do the formatting for you. > > > > Doesn't that format RD53s and RD54s slightly sub-optimally? > > Antonio > > I don't know, does it? I don't know much about the low level formatting, but a project I have in mind for the future will mean I need to learn a *lot* more about it. Regards Rob From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 25 03:23:58 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:23:58 +0200 Subject: Source for marked sense cards ? Message-ID: <001401cd9af7$201ca440$6055ecc0$@xs4all.nl> Does somebody knows a source for marked sense cards (the ones you have to mark with a pencil) for my HP 9860Aa Marked Card Reader? A good 1:1 or 2:1 scan would do also, but the actual cards are better. -Rik From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 03:26:21 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:26:21 -0700 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50616AAD.1020804@gmail.com> I have never been there but, it was always somewhere I wanted to go. A legendary surplus shop. I didn't know they were closing down. Times have changed. The surplus guys are done. Being local doesn't matter anymore. On 9/25/2012 12:32 AM, Richard wrote: > The Black Hole surplus in Los Alamos was supposed to close Monday, but > they still have a crapload of stuff they are trying to sell, so they > will continue to be open on a weird schedule. > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 25 03:28:14 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:28:14 +0200 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506135AB.7050109@gmail.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> <506130AC.9040709@jwsss.com> <506135AB.7050109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001901cd9af7$b8984940$29c8dbc0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens mc68010 > Verzonden: dinsdag 25 september 2012 6:40 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: collusions > > On 9/24/2012 9:18 PM, jim s wrote: > > > > On 9/24/2012 8:56 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: > >>> > >>>> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - > >>>> quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. > >>> > >>> I find that shielding definitely cuts down on crosstalk. Also use > >>> of differential signalling... > >> > >> Braided or foil? > >> > >> > > From the comment, maybe beryllium copper? > > Did I miss something that happened on this list ? What was the OP on about ? Long transmission line reflections. From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 03:40:50 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:40:50 -0700 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: <50616AAD.1020804@gmail.com> References: <50616AAD.1020804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50616E12.9050400@gmail.com> for those that don't know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZfcJsWEtl0 From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Sep 25 03:44:34 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 01:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member References: Message-ID: <1348562674.73566.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2012 19:55:18 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new member > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> >>? I have just subscribed to this mailing list a few day ago > > Greeitngs ans welcome to the list. > There are many I think. It depends on what you mean by a GUI. DO you > incldue windowing systems that had a good command line interpretter, but > had some programs that were operated with pointign device (mouse), > pull-down menus, etc? I would, or at least I'd regard them as a close > ancestor. > > With that in mind : > > I notice you haven't included any of the 'classic' wokstations. they are unofficial on my wish-list, but until a hardware emulation version is made, i'll wait > For smaller machines, there were several graphicl front-ennds for MS-DOS. > And Microsoft Windows ran on non-IBM-compatibles. IMHO the HP150 version > of Windows is interesting for that reason. I know about Dr's Gem and 16bit Geos, Visi On > > There was a graphical frontend for OS-9 (Microware's OS, nothing to do > with the Mac) on the CoCo3 called, IIRC, Multiview. i'll have to looking to that > >>? ????* BBC micro (wrote programs using usborne computer books from the >>? 1980 without the hardware) > > The Beeb should be very easy to find unless you want soem exotic version, > likw an Acorn Cambridge WOrkstation or an Acorn Business Computer. > > >>? ????* Altair 8800 / IMSAI 8080 reproduction versions > > I'd go for an HP9830. It's easier to find than an original Altair, it > was > the first comptue that was an all-in-one machine that you put on a > desk/bench, plgged into the mains and typed BASIC on. I'ts certainly a > candidate for 'first personal computer. don't get me started on the 'first personal computer' > > You don't say where you are in the world (this is an international list), Australia > > One final point (for the moment). You seem to be interested in the real > hardware, which is good, I am in three minds/worlds when it comes to real hardware: classic hardware only lasts as long are there are parts to repair them hardware emulation/remakes[1]: smaller than the classic hardware software emulations: no physical space need > but do rmemeber it will need repairs from time > to time. Or you might buy a non-working machine. There are plenty of > people here who will help you sort out non-workign hardwre, but > ultimately it's you who have to make the measurements and do the repairs. that why I prefer working hardware > > -tony tom [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_computer_remake From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Tue Sep 25 04:40:47 2012 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:40:47 +0200 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead Message-ID: <01bd01cd9b01$d79c7500$86d55f00$@liftoff.at> Hi, any body able to get the Friden calculators or some of then and ship it to Europe? I will take the costs, no matter. With best regards Gerhard From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 25 06:21:12 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/24/2012 09:05 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - >> quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find >> this very hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright >> unwholesome. If you should be made aware of these intentionally super >> secret cabals, its your responsibility to expose them immediately. >> Thank you. > > Huh? > > -Dave Just filter the fool (like I have) and enjoy the list. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Tue Sep 25 07:57:25 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 07:57:25 -0500 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5061AA35.8060006@ubanproductions.com> I would like to have a "late model" Silent 700 if someone wanted to pick one up. I will happily pay shipping... --tnx --tom On 9/25/12 2:32 AM, Richard wrote: > The Black Hole surplus in Los Alamos was supposed to close Monday, but > they still have a crapload of stuff they are trying to sell, so they > will continue to be open on a weird schedule. > > I went down there this Sunday (yes, they were open on Sunday for a > change) to get the 3 Tektronix RGB monitors that go with the Tektronix > 4125 that I pulled out of there on my last trip. (Returned with a 5x8 > Uhaul covered trailer filled to the top and my car full as well, plus > a little overflow on Will Donzelli's trailer.) > > While rummaging around one last time, I pulled out some more odd > non-PS/2 keyboards (VT220, Intergraph, Cray Viking, Amiga, HP 264x), a > Tektronix digitizing tablet w/puck & PSU, some manuals (mostly > Tektronix), a case of DEC fanfold paper tape and 5 cases of punch > cards. > > Still remaining down there that might be of interest to others: > - VAX 3500 in the pedestal case > - early model TI Silent 700 desktop > - 8 late model Silent 700s with the snap-on case > - Televideo 921 terminal (no keyboard) > - ASR33 on a pedestal, kinda rough shape > - Tektronix 3621 hard copy unit > - lots of punched cards, NIB, some in case boxes (5 boxes per case) > - paper tape, some of it whole boxes > - mylar tape > - 2x IBM model 26 card punch > - lots of Friden calculators > - several Friden flexowriter desks > - 2x modcomp racks, looks like they were for disks, but the disks are > gone and the wiring harnesses are cut > - lots of chart paper rolls, generally free > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 25 08:43:14 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 06:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, > unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find this very > hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright unwholesome. If you > should be made aware of these intentionally super secret cabals, its > your responsibility to expose them immediately. Thank you. > *facepalm* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wackyvorlon at me.com Tue Sep 25 09:00:06 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:00:06 -0400 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> Well, I suppose switching to ladder-line *would* reduce the coupling between the conductors... Sent from my iPhone On 2012-09-25, at 9:43 AM, geneb wrote: > On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> >> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find this very hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright unwholesome. If you should be made aware of these intentionally super secret cabals, its your responsibility to expose them immediately. Thank you. >> > *facepalm* > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 25 11:43:47 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:43:47 +0100 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't know, does it? I don't know much about the low level > formatting, but a project I have in mind for the future will > mean I need to learn a > *lot* more about it. Apparently so: http://vaxine.bitcon.no/section5.html That might only apply if you just let TEST 70 "do its thing" if it recognises your drive. It maybe that if you can specify all the parameters by hand you can set the RD5x sector interleave to 1:1 anyway: http://www.people.vcu.edu/~agnew/MVAX/MV.TXT Or it may be that it just doesn't matter on an MVII class system. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 25 11:51:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:51:39 -0400 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5061E11B.4050804@neurotica.com> On 09/25/2012 03:54 AM, Jarratt RMA wrote: >>> The alternative is to find someone with a MicroVAX 2000 (or >>> get one of your own), that can also do the formatting for you. >>> >> >> Doesn't that format RD53s and RD54s slightly sub-optimally? > > I don't know, does it? I don't know much about the low level formatting, > but a project I have in mind for the future will mean I need to learn a > *lot* more about it. Yes it does. It formats at a different interleave level than the RQDX3 using the bootable uVAX-II diags. This results in lower data transfer rates on the RQDX3. It will *work*, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 12:26:33 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:26:33 -0600 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: <50616AAD.1020804@gmail.com> References: <50616AAD.1020804@gmail.com> Message-ID: Correction, I said Cray Viking keyboard and meant to say CDC Viking keyboard. CDC made a terminal called Viking and these terminals were sometimes sold in a PLATO configuration. The keyboard is quite recognizable as a CDC Viking keyboard once you've seen one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 12:43:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> Message-ID: <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. There was something (back in the day) known as ROI, ribbonized organized integrated wiring. Not sure what it's purpose was, to diminish emi/rfi or not (must have been, seeing I was employed in an EMI testing facility). You amateurs forgot about that (AGAIN IT'S A JOKE). I went to bed, and even dreamed whether I was getting the acronym correct. Or you could just opt to killfile the fool. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 25 12:50:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 10:50:28 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 9:10 PM -0400 9/24/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 09/24/2012 09:05 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk - >> quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. I find >> this very hurtful, not to mention unprofessional, downright >> unwholesome. If you should be made aware of these intentionally super >> secret cabals, its your responsibility to expose them immediately. >> Thank you. > > Huh? > > -Dave I have to agree with Dave. Huh? I'm not sure if it's pertinent here, as I'm not sure what the point of the original post is, but something Chris Tofu might want to remember is that a lot of us on this list have been members, and known may of the people on this list, longer than we care to remember. Yeah, that statement falls into the "Geez I'm getting old", category. ;-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 25 12:52:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:52:20 -0400 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> On 09/25/2012 01:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. Oh. Honestly, it didn't come across that way. Limitations of ASCII, etc.. > There was something (back in the day) known as ROI, ribbonized > organized integrated wiring. Not sure what it's purpose was, to > diminish emi/rfi or not (must have been, seeing I was employed in an > EMI testing facility). You amateurs forgot about that (AGAIN IT'S A > JOKE). I went to bed, and even dreamed whether I was getting the > acronym correct. Ahh. I don't really consider myself an amateur (been feeding myself for a long time doing this stuff) but I've never heard of it by that name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. > Or you could just opt to killfile the fool. Eh, I just delete. No biggie. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 13:11:04 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire On 09/25/2012 01:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. ? Oh.? Honestly, it didn't come across that way.? Limitations of ASCII, etc.. C: Yeah but who types - quote, unquote - ??? Doesn't it make much more rational sense to enclose it in actual quotes??? > There was something (back in the day) known as ROI, ribbonized > organized integrated wiring. Not sure what it's purpose was, to > diminish emi/rfi or not (must have been, seeing I was employed in an > EMI testing facility). You amateurs forgot about that (AGAIN IT'S A > JOKE). I went to bed, and even dreamed whether I was getting the > acronym correct. ? Ahh.? I don't really consider myself an amateur (been feeding myself for a long time doing this stuff) but I've never heard of it by that name.? It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. C: I don't consider you an amateur either. But it was designated by an acronym back then, this I know because a wad of docs were stuck in me hand. They may have dropped the usage since, don't know. > Or you could just opt to killfile the fool. ? Eh, I just delete.? No biggie. C: There's the spirit! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 13:12:48 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348596768.49490.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Zane H. Healy I have to agree with Dave.? Huh? I'm not sure if it's pertinent here, as I'm not sure what the point of the original post is, but something Chris Tofu might want to remember is that a lot of us on this list have been members, and known may of the people on this list, longer than we care to remember.? Yeah, that statement falls into the "Geez I'm getting old", category. ;-) C: We're all getting older. Trust me. Which makes me wonder why even older folk then I can't take extreme pleasure in jesting. Perhaps I've just tipped the scale and am in the category of deranged. Not just old and jaded. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 25 13:14:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209251814.OAA04438@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> its come to my attention that theres quite a bit of crosstalk [...] >> Huh? > I have to agree with Dave. Huh? My first reaction was that this was talking about off-list conversations. That didn't make sense, though, since off-list conversations are, IMO, reasonable and expected. Then I noticed who wrote it and it all made sense. > I'm not sure if it's pertinent here, as I'm not sure what the point > of the original post is, [...] Personally, I have trouble seeing it as anything but more trolling. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 25 13:14:17 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:14:17 -0400 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5061F479.6080304@atarimuseum.com> I have CDC drive cables EXACTLY like those, they are ribbon cables, about 24 ft give or take and they are twisted paired ribbon cables... Chris Tofu wrote: > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > > On 09/25/2012 01:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. >> > > Oh. Honestly, it didn't come across that way. Limitations of ASCII, > etc.. > > C: Yeah but who types - quote, unquote - ??? Doesn't it make much more rational sense to enclose it in actual quotes??? > > >> There was something (back in the day) known as ROI, ribbonized >> organized integrated wiring. Not sure what it's purpose was, to >> diminish emi/rfi or not (must have been, seeing I was employed in an >> EMI testing facility). You amateurs forgot about that (AGAIN IT'S A >> JOKE). I went to bed, and even dreamed whether I was getting the >> acronym correct. >> > > Ahh. I don't really consider myself an amateur (been feeding myself > for a long time doing this stuff) but I've never heard of it by that > name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. > > C: I don't consider you an amateur either. But it was designated by an acronym back then, this I know because a wad of docs were stuck in me hand. They may have dropped the usage since, don't know. > > >> Or you could just opt to killfile the fool. >> > > Eh, I just delete. No biggie. > > C: There's the spirit! > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 13:20:15 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 11:20:15 -0700 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: <5061E11B.4050804@neurotica.com> References: <5061E11B.4050804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sep 25, 2012 9:55 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > Yes it does. It formats at a different interleave level than the > RQDX3 using the bootable uVAX-II diags. This results in lower data > transfer rates on the RQDX3. > Anyone know for sure if formatting with the uVAX-II diags and the PDP-11 XXDP diags will result in the same interleave with the same RQDX3 attached disk? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 25 13:24:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:24:32 -0400 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5061F6E0.9080005@neurotica.com> On 09/25/2012 02:11 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Oh. Honestly, it didn't come across that way. Limitations of > ASCII, etc.. > > C: Yeah but who types - quote, unquote - ??? Doesn't it make much > more rational sense to enclose it in actual quotes??? Probably. >> There was something (back in the day) known as ROI, ribbonized >> organized integrated wiring. Not sure what it's purpose was, to >> diminish emi/rfi or not (must have been, seeing I was employed in >> an EMI testing facility). You amateurs forgot about that (AGAIN >> IT'S A JOKE). I went to bed, and even dreamed whether I was getting >> the acronym correct. > > Ahh. I don't really consider myself an amateur (been feeding myself > for a long time doing this stuff) but I've never heard of it by that > name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. > > C: I don't consider you an amateur either. But it was designated by > an acronym back then, this I know because a wad of docs were stuck in > me hand. They may have dropped the usage since, don't know. Possibly. >> Or you could just opt to killfile the fool. > > Eh, I just delete. No biggie. > > C: There's the spirit! Where? I thought I'd drank it all! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 25 13:40:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:40:30 -0400 Subject: Needed MicroVAX II Diag Maint TK50 tape or images. In-Reply-To: References: <5061E11B.4050804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5061FA9E.2050204@neurotica.com> On 09/25/2012 02:20 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Yes it does. It formats at a different interleave level than the >> RQDX3 using the bootable uVAX-II diags. This results in lower data >> transfer rates on the RQDX3. > > Anyone know for sure if formatting with the uVAX-II diags and the PDP-11 > XXDP diags will result in the same interleave with the same RQDX3 attached > disk? I don't know *for sure*, but I've not noticed any performance difference there...I don't know involved the diag software is in the formatting process in this case. The RQDX controllers present (as you well know) a very high-level interface (MSCP) to the host; I'd guess, and this is just a guess, that low-level stuff like sector interleave are handled entirely within the controller. Anything else would present a big abstraction violation, jumping over the MSCP layer, which would be pretty non-DEC-like for the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 25 14:05:08 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:05:08 +0100 Subject: (Yet Another) Long-Term Archival solution In-Reply-To: <50616E12.9050400@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Hitachi-quartz-glass-data-dots-Takao-Wa tanabe-Superman,17856.html I wonder if this will turn out to be any more "real" than the various other "archival" solutions that have cropped up. Still, if it just needs a microscope to read the data out (and some software, unless you are extremely patient), then it has promise for those of us who'd like to be able to peruse our documents after the apocalypse. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 14:30:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (Yet Another) Long-Term Archival solution In-Reply-To: References: <50616E12.9050400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348601403.73067.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "arcarlini at iee.org" http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Hitachi-quartz-glass-data-dots-Takao-Wa tanabe-Superman,17856.html I wonder if this will turn out to be any more "real" than the various other "archival" solutions that have cropped up. Still, if it just needs a microscope to read the data out (and some software, unless you are extremely patient), then it has promise for those of us who'd like to be able to peruse our documents after the apocalypse. C: I don't know what you mean exactly by the _apocalypse_, but if you're referring to *the* apocalypse, it already happened. A long, long time ago. The most common misconception is it's yet to occur. So common it's scary. ?If people simply used a bare bones file system, w/redundancy, w/backups faithfully made every 6 months, what's wrong w/optical storage? I know, there's been loads of discussion. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 14:38:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:38:28 -0600 Subject: Tektronix CT8500 terminal -- is it an OEM'ed Tek 4024? Message-ID: One of the items I pulled out of the Black Hole this weekend was a Tektronix CT8500 terminal. It goes with their 85x0 microprocessor development systems that we've talked about here over the past year. I also snarfed the operator's manual for it, so that will appear on bitsavers soon. Bitsavers has the user's guide for the CT8100 terminal which is really a 4023 as is blatantly obvious from reading the manual. However, the operator's guide to the CT8500 doesn't make mention of any other Tektronix terminal model. On Wednesday, I'll open the cabinet and inspect the board set inside, but until then I thought someone here might be able to shed more light on this. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 25 14:47:36 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:47:36 +0100 Subject: (Yet Another) Long-Term Archival solution In-Reply-To: <1348601403.73067.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B403D2B39CD4D4F951AFE7961A65895@ANTONIOPC> >C: I don't know what you mean exactly by the _apocalypse_, but if you're referring to *the* apocalypse, it already happened. > A long, long time ago. Whichever one you may be referring to, it's only one of many. But, to clarify, I meant the *next* one (affecting this planet). > what's wrong w/optical storage? I know, there's been loads of discussion. Well, building a CDROM drive (or DVD-ROM drive) from scratch might be a bit of a challenge. A microscope, on the other hand, is something that we've been able to build since the 1600s. Admittedly this technology will need something slightly better than that, but at least we'll have many subsequent generations to perfect the technology. Whereas if the survivors had to build CDROm drives from scratch, they might find most of the media unreadable by the time they succeeded. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 15:15:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:15:03 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061F479.6080304@atarimuseum.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5061F479.6080304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <506210C7.8337.F7EA7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2012 at 14:14, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have CDC drive cables EXACTLY like those, they are ribbon cables, > about 24 ft give or take and they are twisted paired ribbon cables... Still made, AFAIK. Google/search "Spectra Strip" for whoever owns them now (Tyco, probably) and note that one variation is the twisted-pair ribbon. Expensive stuff, however. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 15:15:29 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (Yet Another) Long-Term Archival solution In-Reply-To: <5B403D2B39CD4D4F951AFE7961A65895@ANTONIOPC> References: <1348601403.73067.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5B403D2B39CD4D4F951AFE7961A65895@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <1348604129.66503.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "arcarlini at iee.org" Whichever one you may be referring to, it's only one of many. But, to clarify, I meant the *next* one (affecting this planet). C: The greek word that corresponds to apocalypse means simply to reveal, pictorially as spreading a curtain. The notion of calamity is not inherent in it's meaning. > what's wrong w/optical storage? I know, there's been loads of discussion. Well, building a CDROM drive (or DVD-ROM drive) from scratch might be a bit of a challenge. A microscope, on the other hand, is something that we've been able to build since the 1600s. Admittedly this technology will need something slightly better than that, but at least we'll have many subsequent generations to perfect the technology. Whereas if the survivors had to build CDROm drives from scratch, they might find most of the media unreadable by the time they succeeded. C: Well, the page describes optical storage. Hitachi states it'll last forever. But you don't need anything to last forever. If the need for the medium was to last forever, how important could it be? It needs to be viewed periodically, I would assume, which presumes some sort of handling. And if it gets handled alot, it's bound to degrade. ?You say a cd/dvd drive might need to be recreated. Well viewing miniscule data through a uscope would need some sort capture and processing. So computers will also need to be recreated. And you'll need to utilize the data on a computer anyway. Unless we manage to get slugs to process and execute all these old proggies. Let's work on that problem first :) ?Largely I think this quest for a solution lacks a problem. No offense, I've contemplated this stuff over the years myself. So much so I've come to the conclusion that even if a few bits were lost, if it's critical enough, there's a brain out there big enough to recreate them. Just don't ask me ;) ?I find at times the prospect of having to rewrite say a driver for a *empty* piece of h/w isn't all that much to ask. We concentrate a lot on nostalgia here. But sometimes you need to shovel all that and concentrate on what's most important. ?Even recreating rudimentary technology will seem simple before long. A lot of stuff is so commonly available you could in all likelihood jury rig an optical drive in 5-10 years from scrounged parts, if not a lot sooner. Depending on the need. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 15:21:49 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:21:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 25, 12 01:52:20 pm Message-ID: > name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. Ecer come across a twisted pair _PCB track_? The HP9810 and HP9820 keyboard encoders need to feed a low level alanloge signal (the output of the keyboard sense loop) from the eddge commector to the keyboard itself to an analogue comparator cirucit at the other end of the encoder PCB. Fortunately the comaprator has differnetial inputs, the source of this signal is fully floating. I don't know if it depends on the version of the PCB, but the encoder in my HP9810 (and indeed in the other HP9810's I've worked on) uses a bit of twistwed pair wire for this. The HP9820 encoder has a pair of PCB tracks, They zig-zag over each other and go through the board (with vias), thus forming a twisted pair of conductors. It looks very odd... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 15:25:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:25:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <5061F479.6080304@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Sep 25, 12 02:14:17 pm Message-ID: > > I have CDC drive cables EXACTLY like those, they are ribbon cables, > about 24 ft give or take and they are twisted paired ribbon cables... 'Twist-n-flat' ribbon cable was very common, and was still in the catalogues last time I looked. That's ribbonm cable with twisted pairs that ahve untwisted bits (a couple of inches long excH) every so often so you can crimp IDC conenctors to the cable. Of course all 'flat' parts have the untwisted wires in the same order. That stuff was very common for disk drive cables, etc. I would guess tour CDC cables are for SMD drives, which used differential ECL signals IIRC. Tiwsted pairs are of course ideal for such signals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 15:10:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:10:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348562674.73566.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Sep 25, 12 01:44:34 am Message-ID: > > There are many I think. It depends on what you mean by a GUI. DO you > > incldue windowing systems that had a good command line interpretter, but > > had some programs that were operated with pointign device (mouse), > > pull-down menus, etc? I would, or at least I'd regard them as a close > > ancestor. > > > > With that in mind : > > > > I notice you haven't included any of the 'classic' wokstations. > > they are unofficial on my wish-list, but until a hardware emulation > version is made, i'll wait Why? they are not _that_ large (a calssic PERQ is one of the larger ones, it's about the size of a 2-draaer deskside cabinet). They are also not _that_ hard to keep going... Runniong the rela hardware, at least for me, is the fun part of this hobby :-) > > > > There was a graphical frontend for OS-9 (Microware's OS, nothing to do > > with the Mac) on the CoCo3 called, IIRC, Multiview. > > i'll have to looking to that There was certainly an Australian version of the CpCp3. It genrerated 50Hz PAL-encoded video and ran off 240V mains. It is very differnt to the NTSC version, so don;'t think you'll conver the latter into the full PAL version, but as I mentioned, you can covnert it for 240V mains and use an NTSC-capable monitor with it. The software exists, , but I haev no idea where you'd find it now. [...] > > I'd go for an HP9830. It's easier to find than an original Altair, it > > was > > the first comptue that was an all-in-one machine that you put on a > > desk/bench, plgged into the mains and typed BASIC on. I'ts certainly a > > candidate for 'first personal computer. > don't get me started on the 'first personal computer' No, that is a perpetual 'discussion'; here. It only becomes useful when (as I did), you explain _why_ you consider a particualr machine to desrve that title. Even the defintiion of 'computer' is ont always clear (and I do not mean things like 'The person who operates a calculating machine' which was, IIRC the original definition). While soem things are clearly computers and others equally clearly not, there are plenty of borderlien cases... [...] > > classic hardware only lasts as long are there are parts to repair them > hardware emulation/remakes[1]: smaller than the classic hardware > software emulations: no physical space need Oh don't get me started..... My experience is that the older the machien the _easier_ it is to get spare parts for it. It is very diffiuclt to get replacement ICs for modern PCs (and soldering BGA pacakages is not something I wish to attempt). Getting parts for 5 yewra old PCs is next to impsosble. Go back a bit to the 1980s home computers, and most parts are still easily aviaalble. The exception is the ULAs tht many such machines used, of course. Go back to the PERQs, PDP11s, HP9800s, etc and jsut about all the chips were standard TTL parts and while they are no longer made ,the yare easy to find still. And they are simple enough that in most cases you can concot a modern relpacement. Go back even further and we are talking discrete transistors, which are easy to get. Yes, there are parts -- mostly transformers and mechancial parts -- which can be hard to fidn for such older mahcines. But often they can be repaired (transofrmers and motors can be rewound) or made in a good home workshop I would _much_ rather have ot maintain a EPRQ, a PDP11 or an HP9830, than the the PC that runs emulators of such machines. > > > but do rmemeber it will need repairs from time > > to time. Or you might buy a non-working machine. There are plenty of > > people here who will help you sort out non-workign hardwre, but > > ultimately it's you who have to make the measurements and do the repairs. > that why I prefer working hardware Yes, but working hardware may not stay working. You will have to fix things sooner or later. AS I said, there are plenty of people here to help you, with knowledge of just about every computer ecver made. But unless we're at _your_ bench, we can't do it all... -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 15:30:31 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:30:31 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506210C7.8337.F7EA7D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348596664.55956.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061F479.6080304@atarimuseum.com> <506210C7.8337.F7EA7D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 25, 2012 1:18 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Still made, AFAIK. Google/search "Spectra Strip" for whoever owns > them now (Tyco, probably) and note that one variation is the > twisted-pair ribbon. Expensive stuff, however. > > --Chuck > Also, 3M 1700 cable. Expensive yes. Still expensive but not quite as bad on eBay. Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/140524336036 From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 16:11:57 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:11:57 -0500 Subject: Interesting court case on tv used facebook as evidence Message-ID: I'm sure I'm late to the game here but I was stuffing my face with pizza and diet coke with my BPA filled cup at a restaurant while they hypnotize me with TV in my face. Anyway, something that struck me as odd although I normally don't listen much to the star struck lawsuit tv shows was a lady suing an ex-roommate for property stolen during a move out debate. I'll leave the long story short but in the argument the plaintiff brought up a facebook conversation apparently between her and the defendant as evidence. The judge asked the defendant if she was aware of the tv or if she denies taking it and of course she denied it, then brought up the conversation which mentions the tv and the defendant apparently commented on it saying it was a loss or something. In the long run the plaintiff lost the case as she wasn't there during the incident, the defendant used the popular defense that it wasn't her on her facebook account arguing and was someone else and the judge said it was all circumstantial evidence so the case was lost. I'm just curious if someone here has legal experience but wouldn't a conversation on facebook have an expectation of privacy? Is that legally allowable in court if it's private email? I wasn't sure if since it's obviously related to the case if there's an exception or obviously if it was a public wall post then it was meant for the public to see and you wouldn't have any expectation of privacy. Since in the IT field we all are probably familiar with having to create disclaimers everywhere for expected use and no privacy, etc it's a curious line for email. Last I recall even though a person uses your computer (i.e. they don't own the equipment) they still have an expectation of privacy and their personal email shouldn't be monitored without consent. I believe universities end up with this conundrum often with personal computers attached to their network, etc. Does anyone here have legal experience for electronic monitoring or submission to court in this day and age? I know it's more likely just an opinion topic I just expected the judge to say something about the evidence not being admissible. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 16:30:37 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:30:37 -0300 Subject: Interesting court case on tv used facebook as evidence References: Message-ID: <9811A30A91D3482E9377BE30AAD0D5E5@tababook> I'd go a bit further... You seems not to have privacy on facebook, and you agree with that. Since there you put most of your life, contacts, friendships, etc. AND the fruit on the top of the cake...most conversations you CANNOT delete. I have 3 facebook-able devices: iPad, iPhone and PC. I can delete conversations on my PC, but ANYONE who takes my phone is able to see EVERYTHING, unless I sign out every time I use. The iPhone and iPad clients doesn't honor the "deleted" flag on conversation, and even if I delete it on my PC, it appears on the i*devices. Frightening... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam O'nella" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 6:11 PM Subject: Interesting court case on tv used facebook as evidence > I'm sure I'm late to the game here but I was stuffing my face with pizza > and diet coke with my BPA filled cup at a restaurant while they hypnotize > me with TV in my face. Anyway, something that struck me as odd although I > normally don't listen much to the star struck lawsuit tv shows was a lady > suing an ex-roommate for property stolen during a move out debate. I'll > leave the long story short but in the argument the plaintiff brought up a > facebook conversation apparently between her and the defendant as > evidence. The judge asked the defendant if she was aware of the tv or if > she denies taking it and of course she denied it, then brought up the > conversation which mentions the tv and the defendant apparently commented > on it saying it was a loss or something. > > In the long run the plaintiff lost the case as she wasn't there during the > incident, the defendant used the popular defense that it wasn't her on her > facebook account arguing and was someone else and the judge said it was > all > circumstantial evidence so the case was lost. > > I'm just curious if someone here has legal experience but wouldn't a > conversation on facebook have an expectation of privacy? Is that legally > allowable in court if it's private email? I wasn't sure if since it's > obviously related to the case if there's an exception or obviously if it > was a public wall post then it was meant for the public to see and you > wouldn't have any expectation of privacy. > > Since in the IT field we all are probably familiar with having to create > disclaimers everywhere for expected use and no privacy, etc it's a curious > line for email. Last I recall even though a person uses your computer > (i.e. they don't own the equipment) they still have an expectation of > privacy and their personal email shouldn't be monitored without consent. > I > believe universities end up with this conundrum often with personal > computers attached to their network, etc. > > Does anyone here have legal experience for electronic monitoring or > submission to court in this day and age? I know it's more likely just an > opinion topic I just expected the judge to say something about the > evidence > not being admissible. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 16:30:52 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:30:52 -0500 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506122D2.17197.B74A4B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <50622463.09d0320a.17c7.ffffedaf@mx.google.com> At 10:56 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote: >On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 24 Sep 2012 at 18:05, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>>its come to my attention that theres quite a >>>bit of crosstalk - quote, unquote - on the list lately. Maybe for a long time. >> >>I find that shielding definitely cuts down on >>crosstalk. Also use of differential signalling... > >Braided or foil? I believe one needs both, with a drain wire, for flex resistance and maximum coverage. 853 . Wit levels low. Attempting to compensate. NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 17:05:58 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:05:58 -0500 Subject: Model Computers (was: UNIVAC model) In-Reply-To: References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052A91E.90905@telegraphics.com.au> <5052AB23.9010006@bitsavers.org> <5052AE1A.4040701@gmail.com> Message-ID: Although I don't think it's related to our conversation the mentioning of his art, http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?33053-mini-apple-II-computer-flash-drive-ebaydecided to put one of his 3 little flash drive Apple II replicas on ebay. http://*www.ebay.com/itm/251157445732* is the actual auction. This is who I was remembering trying to painstakingly make a little model of an Apple II. Apparently the cost of making these was not at all looking like a profitable idea so this is probably it for his time. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 25 17:53:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:53:08 -0700 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <5061EF54.1060009@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 25, 12 01:52:20 pm, Message-ID: <506235D4.7438.48A2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2012 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. > > Ecer come across a twisted pair _PCB track_? No--but I have seen lots of twisted-pair ECL wirewrap boards. Makes a lot of sense there--as well as lots of termination resistor packs. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 18:10:05 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:10:05 -0500 Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If folks had just adopted rfc 5841 .. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5841we can't make this list compliant? On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 19:41:17 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:41:17 -0500 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50624F2D.9090307@gmail.com> On 09/24/2012 04:45 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to let > go of his entire collection pretty fast. > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 > > I don't know the story, I don't know him outside of the forums but there > are some really nice machines (even DEC) in there for a person with some > storage space and a big car. Any follow-up to this? I do hope it all gets saved (to far for me, unfortunately, much as I'd love to give it all a home). cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 25 20:17:24 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:17:24 -0400 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > - lots of punched cards, NIB, some in case boxes (5 boxes per case) What kind of condition are the cards in? They must be completely flat and stored properly. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 25 21:02:08 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:02:08 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/03 (australia) Message-ID: PDP 11/03 available in australia, contact me off-list if interested. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 25 21:03:31 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:03:31 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/50 (ireland) Message-ID: PDP-11/50 and "three crates" of spares available in Galway, Ireland. Please contact me off-list if interested. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 25 21:07:42 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:07:42 -0500 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) Message-ID: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Not sure of location yet, trying to obtain that. Will repost when location is available. PDP-11/05 paper tape RL01 2 disk packs manuals & drawings RT11 manuals 8 inch floppy drive and floppies "bunch of cards" pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 box of panel light bulbs parts for core boards cpu test card From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 25 21:09:44 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:09:44 -0500 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) Message-ID: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> PDP11 of unknown model Used from 1978 until "yesterday" to do the billing for Rio De Janeiro's Metro transit billing system. Includes an "EDMONSON" card, whatever that is. Contact me off list if interested. J From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 25 21:11:10 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:11:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 Message-ID: PDP 11/10 available, appears to be located in Arizona. Please contact me off-list if interested. J From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 25 21:35:07 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8A505485-9C1E-4390-B728-FA07FB9795A4@me.com> <1348595012.22904.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > If folks had just adopted rfc 5841 .. > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5841we can't make this list compliant? > > On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 12:43 PM, Chris Tofu > wrote: > >> >> oi I guess it was only clear to me IT WAS A JOKE. Hee hee, ha ha. I'd be a lot happier if it could be arranged for all of C:\DERP>'s traffic to be carried in an RFC 1149 compliant fashion... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 25 22:46:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 20:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <1348596768.49490.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348535142.27496.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5061048A.1000307@neurotica.com> <1348596768.49490.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120925204157.C96246@shell.lmi.net> > C:\DERP\ We're all getting older. Trust me. Which makes me wonder why > even older folk then I can't take extreme pleasure in jesting. Perhaps > I've just tipped the scale and am in the category of deranged. Not just > old and jaded. Welcome! The BAD news: Now you are "one of us" From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 25 23:23:38 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:23:38 -0600 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > - lots of punched cards, NIB, some in case boxes (5 boxes per case) > > What kind of condition are the cards in? They must be completely flat > and stored properly. Most of the cards I fished through are warped in some manner or another; some of the boxes clearly had water damage and they are stored in a corner of the building that has obviously had water dripping through the ceiling because of the damaged ceiling tile. Caveat emptor :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Sep 26 00:15:11 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 21:10:20 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new member >> > I notice you haven't included any of the 'classic' > wokstations. >> >> they are unofficial on my wish-list, but until a hardware emulation >> version is made, i'll wait > > Why? they are not _that_ large (a calssic PERQ is one of the larger ones, > it's about the size of a 2-draaer deskside cabinet). They are also not > _that_ hard to keep going... > > Runniong the rela hardware, at least for me, is the fun part of this > hobby :-) I enjoy the expanding my computer knowledge, but I do like seeing, touch classic hardware and show it off to people > >> > > > No, that is a perpetual 'discussion'; here. It only becomes useful when > (as I did), you explain _why_ you consider a particualr machine to desrve > that title. > > Even the defintiion of 'computer' is ont always clear (and I do not mean > > things like 'The person who operates a calculating machine' which was, > IIRC the original definition). While soem things are clearly computers > and others equally clearly not, there are plenty of borderlien cases... > ok another debate that is unsolvable without of a true definition :) > [...] > >> > > Yes, there are parts? -- mostly transformers and mechancial parts -- > which can be hard to fidn for such older mahcines. But often they can be > repaired (transofrmers and motors can be rewound) or made in a good home > workshop good point > Yes, but working hardware may not stay working. You will have to fix > things sooner or later. AS I said, there are plenty of people here to > help you, with knowledge of just about every computer ecver made. But > unless we're at _your_ bench, we can't do it all... I can plug in/remove boards but I prefer to out-source my repair work > > -tony tom sparks From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 00:16:56 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:16:56 -0500 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: if its in manitoba let me know On Tue, Sep 25, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Jay West wrote: > Not sure of location yet, trying to obtain that. Will repost when location > is available. > > PDP-11/05 > paper tape > RL01 > 2 disk packs > manuals & drawings > RT11 manuals > 8 inch floppy drive and floppies > "bunch of cards" > pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 > box of panel light bulbs > parts for core boards > cpu test card > > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Sep 26 00:27:09 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? Message-ID: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> What strange remark have you had about your collection? here is mine: I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?" --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only)? From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 00:33:21 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:33:21 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > What strange remark have you had about your collection? "Why?" It's no so much the word as the tone :) -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 00:35:32 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:35:32 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jason T wrote: > Full pic galleries to come... Galleries are coming in....posted at vcfmw.org as we get them. Send yours if you were there! -- jht From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 00:55:17 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:55:17 +0200 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506298C5.5050405@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 04:11 AM, Jay West wrote: > PDP 11/10 available, appears to be located in Arizona. Please contact > me off-list if interested. > > J > Come on Jay. Sending three mails with available PDP11s and then following up with this topic line was just mean :-) Made my heart skip a beat at least. Cheers, Pontus. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 00:58:29 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:58:29 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: is it even usefull anymore From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 01:04:13 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:04:13 +0200 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 04:07 AM, Jay West wrote: > pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 What is a PEP? /P From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 01:05:15 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:05:15 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> What strange remark have you had about your collection? > "Why?" > > It's no so much the word as the tone :) > ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of this. /P From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 01:06:13 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:06:13 +0200 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <50624F2D.9090307@gmail.com> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> <50624F2D.9090307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50629B55.9040300@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 02:41 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Any follow-up to this? I do hope it all gets saved (to far for me, > unfortunately, much as I'd love to give it all a home). All I know is from the forum thread. But I check on it periodically, I'll post back here if anything dramatically changes. /P From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 26 01:47:42 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:47:42 +0200 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > On 09/26/2012 04:07 AM, Jay West wrote: >> pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 > > What is a PEP? > > /P > That is a replacement cardset (4 or 5 cards) which you put into the backplane of an 11/70 replacing the original 11/70 cpu boards. I believe PEP did stand for Performance Enhancement Product. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 02:21:44 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:21:44 +0200 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 08:47 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> On 09/26/2012 04:07 AM, Jay West wrote: >>> pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 >> What is a PEP? >> >> /P >> > That is a replacement cardset (4 or 5 cards) which you put into the > backplane of an 11/70 replacing the original 11/70 cpu boards. > > I believe PEP did stand for Performance Enhancement Product. > So it's a third party product? Is it related to that "cache only" memory upgrade? /P From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 02:36:47 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:36:47 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01af01cd9bb9$b18c4f30$14a4ed90$@gmail.com> I have part of my collection in a garagebox that opens to the street, prompting the following from a ~15-year old boy: "My family is in the scrapping business, we can haul all that away for you and it won't cost you a dime." My explanation was met with incredulous looks. The next day he was back: "We have some old bicycles, for 50 euros each. I assume you collect those as well." At which point I lost confidence in his ability to think logically. Camiel -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Sparks Sent: woensdag 26 september 2012 7:27 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: strange remark about your collection? What strange remark have you had about your collection? here is mine: I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?" --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only)? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Sep 26 02:59:48 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:59:48 +0100 Subject: Compupro Craiglist ad. In-Reply-To: <20120924140327.O58694@shell.lmi.net> References: <505FD4E5.40406@gmail.com> <20120924140327.O58694@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <931CC4327FDA47CCA912535388E44BE2@MailBox> Well I suppose somebody should ask: 'Who's go the S100 based system with the most working boards in it?' Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 24 September 2012 22:05 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Compupro Craiglist ad. On Sun, 23 Sep 2012, mc68010 wrote: > I have never run into a S100 system with so many boards installed. Did > they just stick a board in every slot or does that look like a legit setup ? > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/sys/3292027501.html "Once every slot is full, upgrade to a motherboard with more slots." From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 26 03:05:53 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 01:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Pontus wrote: > On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks >> wrote: >>> What strange remark have you had about your collection? >> "Why?" >> >> It's no so much the word as the tone :) > > ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of > this. If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Sep 26 06:50:12 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:50:12 +0100 Subject: Paper tape reader emulation recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, Does anyone care to offer an opinion on whose PTR emulator board makes the most adaptable utility for a mixed collection? Speed isn't essential, but the ability to repatch and handle different protocol arrangements would be good. Punch emulation is another nice to have. -- Colin From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 07:15:08 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:15:08 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious. > One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc. In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to endless explanation... From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 07:17:34 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:17:34 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> On 2012-09-26, at 2:05 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote: >> >> "Why?" >> >> It's no so much the word as the tone :) > > ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of this. > Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history." From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Sep 26 07:23:50 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:23:50 +0200 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) In-Reply-To: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> References: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1348662230.10516.20.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> tis 2012-09-25 klockan 21:09 -0500 skrev Jay West: > PDP11 of unknown model > Used from 1978 until "yesterday" to do the billing for Rio De > Janeiro's Metro transit billing system. > Includes an "EDMONSON" card, whatever that is. > > Contact me off list if interested. > > J > Edmonson ticket=tickets preprinted with travel info (from-and-to and maybe return) and its individual serial number Size: 1x2 (?) inch Some railway stations had special equipment which was able to on demand print out the proper ticket for a customer and keep tabs on sold tickets. At end of day the clerks took out a report which was then sent of to the accounting department. A station which didn't have this equipment had to requisition a set of a specific ticket. For example: I need: 100 tickets for a grown-up sao paulo-rio de janeiro 3d class single 100 tickets for a grown-up sao paulo-rio de janeiro and back 1st class 40 - child sao p-rio d j single 3d class The tickets arrived sorted on its serial number. every ticket of one type (dest/grown-up/class) has a serial number and if the the clerk always sold his lowest numbered ticket first was it easy to keep tracks on numbers sold. At End-of-day the clerk didnt have to count his remaining tickets, it was enough to look for the number of the lowest numbered ticket. Could the Edmonson expansion card be a printer interface ? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 07:31:54 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:31:54 -0400 Subject: Black Hole nearly dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Most of the cards I fished through are warped in some manner or another; > some of the boxes clearly had water damage and they are stored in a > corner of the building that has obviously had water dripping through > the ceiling because of the damaged ceiling tile. Caveat emptor :). Hmmm...what I feared. I did not have the time to go deep into the corner of the store where they were stacked, and the cards on the surface of the stack were less than optimal. I guess deeper into the stack things did not get a whole lot better. -- Will From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Wed Sep 26 07:37:16 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:37:16 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1348663036.10516.25.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-09-26 klockan 08:05 +0200 skrev Pontus: > On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > >> What strange remark have you had about your collection? > > "Why?" > > > > It's no so much the word as the tone :) > > > > ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause > of this. > > /P You live in UPPSALA DONT YOU ?? I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us occasionally gets asked : WHY do you do all that heavy,hot and dirty works for FREE ? Well, i could answer with: I pay 250 kr/annum and a bit of sweat (and sometimes skin) for a nice semester cottage and the privilege to sometimes practise at an old craft. Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs (Korpen-players is not always the kindest types of soccer-players.) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 09:40:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:40:45 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 10:27 PM -0700 9/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote: >What strange remark have you had about your collection? > >here is mine: > >I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup >with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them >a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in > >the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?" Personally I think a strange remark is one I got recently at work... Oh, COOL!!! And it wasn't from just one person... That made it even more frightening!!! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 26 10:32:26 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 08:32:26 -0700 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> On Sep 26, 2012, at 12:21 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 09/26/2012 08:47 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> On 09/26/2012 04:07 AM, Jay West wrote: >>>> pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 >>> What is a PEP? >>> >>> /P >>> >> That is a replacement cardset (4 or 5 cards) which you put into the >> backplane of an 11/70 replacing the original 11/70 cpu boards. >> >> I believe PEP did stand for Performance Enhancement Product. >> > > So it's a third party product? Is it related to that "cache only" memory upgrade? There are 2 related products. The PEP-70 replaces the 11/70 memory boxes (much more reliable and much less power). It can be used with the original 11/70 cache boards. The Hypercache replaces the 11/70 cache boards and (I believe) makes the PEP-70 look like cache. The 11/70 CPU itself is untouched. All of the 11/70's that I've refurbished, I've put in PEP-70 & hyper cache boards mainly because I didn't want to deal with the *many* boxes needed to have a full compliment of memory. TTFN - Guy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 10:42:36 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:42:36 -0400 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> I believe PEP did stand for Performance Enhancement Product. >>> >> >> So it's a third party product? Is it related to that "cache only" memory upgrade? > > There are 2 related products. The PEP-70 replaces the 11/70 memory boxes (much more reliable and much less power). It can be used with the original 11/70 cache boards. The Hypercache replaces the 11/70 cache boards and (I believe) makes the PEP-70 look like cache. The 11/70 CPU itself is untouched. > > All of the 11/70's that I've refurbished, I've put in PEP-70 & hyper cache boards mainly because I didn't want to deal with the *many* boxes needed to have a full compliment of memory. I'd love to be able do that. I've got a BA-11 full of 256K cards (same ones that work in an 11/750). -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Wed Sep 26 11:06:06 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:06:06 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506327EE.8060801@vaxen.net> On 9/26/12 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > What strange remark have you had about your collection? > > here is mine: > > I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup > with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them > a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in > > the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?" Probably not unusual, but my favorite (and this wasn't even a particularly large system - a PDP11/84 with RX02s, a TSZ07, and an RA60, so 2 short racks): "All that's ONE computer???" Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 11:18:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926091719.N22143@shell.lmi.net> WHO[m?] do you show it to? WHY? From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 11:26:11 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:26:11 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 11:43:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:43:57 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506330CD.60008@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. My response: "Divorce! You can't have a zebra without the stripes!" -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 11:45:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:45:29 -0400 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <50633129.2000305@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 11:42 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> All of the 11/70's that I've refurbished, I've put in PEP-70 & hyper cache boards mainly because I didn't want to deal with the *many* boxes needed to have a full compliment of memory. > > I'd love to be able do that. I've got a BA-11 full of 256K cards > (same ones that work in an 11/750). Me too, but not quite full. Anyone have any extra cards? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 11:48:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:48:17 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote: >> wrote: >>> What strange remark have you had about your collection? >> "Why?" >> >> It's no so much the word as the tone :) >> > > ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause > of this. I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 11:34:29 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:34:29 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <61B1326C-50A7-4B21-A51D-E3E8AF79286E@me.com> On 2012-09-26, at 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. She forgets the Honeywell Kitchen Computer! -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 11:50:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:50:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <506298C5.5050405@update.uu.se> References: <506298C5.5050405@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50633242.4000908@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 01:55 AM, Pontus wrote: > On 09/26/2012 04:11 AM, Jay West wrote: >> PDP 11/10 available, appears to be located in Arizona. Please contact >> me off-list if interested. >> >> J >> > > Come on Jay. Sending three mails with available PDP11s and then > following up with this topic line was just mean :-) > > Made my heart skip a beat at least. I had the same reaction. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 11:51:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:51:02 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 01:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > is it even usefull anymore ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the years. As I mentioned a moment ago, I don't associate with such people. There are plenty of "thinking" people in the world...one doesn't need to suffer through the non-thinkers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 11:52:03 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:52:03 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. what is this "wife" thing? I never had enough spare space to let one in Dave Caroline From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 12:03:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506330CD.60008@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506330CD.60008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120926095430.D22143@shell.lmi.net> "Does Homeland Security know about this?" "Why don't you just get an internet account, like a normal person?" "How come there are NO Coleco Adams?" "Will you buy my old Dell?" "I collect WAFFLES; I have a whole trunkful in the attic" (references an ancient vaudeville joke) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Sep 26 12:08:59 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. Closely followed by, "Are you done with the Apple IIc on the dining room table?" Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 12:16:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife Honeywell Kitchen Computer? From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:17:01 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:17:01 +0000 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <61B1326C-50A7-4B21-A51D-E3E8AF79286E@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <61B1326C-50A7-4B21-A51D-E3E8AF79286E@me.com> Message-ID: <412661065-1348679819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-336299122-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> I know. Does anyone have a spare so I can prove my point? ;-) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Anderson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:34:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? On 2012-09-26, at 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. She forgets the Honeywell Kitchen Computer! -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 26 12:25:36 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:25:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Jay West Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:11 PM > PDP 11/10 available, appears to be located in Arizona. Please contact > me off-list if interested. This one was even forwarded to me by another list member, based on the Subject: header. Imagine *my* distress when I read it. :-( Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Sep 26 12:29:10 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:29:10 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26 September 2012 17:52, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife >> although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. > what is this "wife" thing? > I never had enough spare space to let one in My wife threatened to rectally insert the next computer that my friend (who gave me an Apple //+) gives me. I'm not sure who she meant, me or him. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Sep 26 12:31:55 2012 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:31:55 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926091719.N22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926091719.N22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50633C0B.30806@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 09/26/2012 12:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > WHO[m?] do you show it to? I use mine to attract women. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFQYzwLCFu3bIiwtTARArmeAJ995gLOjtVvp/iyv1pds5KJpc8sHQCeKYJJ Zq2rldVvWOvHFJGOmm6pXKg= =v+4v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 12:32:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the > years. Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 26 12:35:53 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:35:53 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926095430.D22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506330CD.60008@neurotica.com> <20120926095430.D22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50633CF9.9050207@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/26/2012 11:03 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "I collect WAFFLES; I have a whole trunkful in the attic" (references an > ancient vaudeville joke) and all the syurip in barrel in the basment??? > From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:50:18 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:50:18 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <412661065-1348679819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-336299122-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <61B1326C-50A7-4B21-A51D-E3E8AF79286E@me.com>, <412661065-1348679819-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-336299122-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: What about calling it "computer salad" ?that's gotta be a classic... > Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: barythrin at gmail.com > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:17:01 +0000 > > I know. Does anyone have a spare so I can prove my point? ;-) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Anderson > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:34:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? > > On 2012-09-26, at 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > > although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. > > She forgets the Honeywell Kitchen Computer! > > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 26 12:54:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 10:54:13 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2012 at 10:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > Honeywell Kitchen Computer? I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays). I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 12:54:44 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:54:44 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: like these? http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/ On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > > If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with > Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious. > > > > One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't > aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through > a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc. > > In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one > either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient > Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to > endless explanation... > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 13:01:47 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA Message-ID: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. NO intention of actually buying a k/b mind you (not at the price I'm asking for one, priced _not_ to sell ;). Beware of this guy, he's simply up to no good! You'll try and be nice and wind up RUINING a keyboard. What chutzpah! ?And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) From rickb at bensene.com Wed Sep 26 13:04:33 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:04:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: My heart skipped a beat or two when I saw the Subject: line also, thought the chance of me being able to collect/house such an artifact is slim to none. I think the OP probably led to accelerated heartbeat or skipped beats for a lot of people when they read the subject. There is a huge difference between a PDP-10 and a PDP 11/10, though both are very cool (though, a PDP-10 in any form is way more cool in my mind). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator (and some old computers) Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 13:24:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:24:14 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >> years. > > Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run > current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting > will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but > eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, > as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. "Thanks, Microsoft." [cue Rabid Richard] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 13:08:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:08:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: collusions In-Reply-To: <506235D4.7438.48A2C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 25, 12 03:53:08 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 Sep 2012 at 21:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > name. It sounds like you're describing twisted-pair ribbon cable. > > > > Ever come across a twisted pair _PCB track_? > > No--but I have seen lots of twisted-pair ECL wirewrap boards. Makes > a lot of sense there--as well as lots of termination resistor packs. Sure. When I started using ECl, it was emphasised to me that ECL will work perfectly provided you design all the itnerconnections as transmission lines and terminate them properly. Some otheter logic familes will work -- most of the time -- if you use any old bit of wire. So they're easier to design with, but the glitches from reflecitons on interconencting wires, etc an bite you. As for termination, for small designs, you cna use a pair of reissotr,s one to ground, the other to the -5.2V rail. I think you want -2V at the tap, with the appropriate impedance. Or a simple resistor of the right value to a -2V supply -- that's what the -2V rail in some old computers was mostly for. The latter has a lower power consumption on large designs. I made my own twisted pair wire-wrap wire. 2 spools of wire on a rod in the bench vis, the ends of the wirs in the chuck of a hand drill. Then walk aross the lab/workshop and get turning ;-). A bout 3 twists per inch gives a 100 Ohm pair IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 13:23:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:23:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Sep 25, 12 10:15:11 pm Message-ID: > > Runniong the real hardware, at least for me, is the fun part of this > > hobby :-) > I enjoy the expanding my computer knowledge, > but I do like seeing, touch classic hardware and show it off to people Those can easily be related. You can enjoy owning and running the hardare _and_ increase your knowledge by learnign to repair it, and, indeed, repairing it. > > Even the defintiion of 'computer' is ont always clear (and I do not mean [...] > ok another debate that is unsolvable without of a true definition :) Exactly. Don't worry about it. I've yet to see any flames resulting from somebody discussing something that can claim to be a computer or related device (for example, calculating machines of any type). > > Yes, there are parts? -- mostly transformers and mechancial parts -- > > which can be hard to find for such older machines. But often they can be > > repaired (transofrmers and motors can be rewound) or made in a good home > > workshop > good point Waht it comes down to is : Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be proved wrong :-)). Transiotrs, doidoes and other discretes often have suitable substitutes still available. Standard ICs are likely to be avaialble somewhere even if no longer made. Custom ICs are a pain! Resistors/Capacitors : Almost certainly a replacement is trivially available Inductors/transformers : Often custom, but can be rewound Switches : May be standard, may be custom. May be hard to find in any case. Often can be taken apart and cleaned Connotors. Can be repaired or made if you can't get a replacement Transformers (mains, etc). Can be rewound or substituted Flyback transofrmers nad the like : A pain. May be avaiallbe. Not easy to make or repair. The model IC engine crowd make ignition coils and vacuum-impregnate them. It might be worth finding out how to do this CRTs. Can't be made at home AFAIK. Seriosuly, I made a very poor CRT at school (had to be continuously pumped) [1]. CRTs look simple, but there's a lot of tricks in making one. But they are actually fiarly generic (particularly monochrome ones) and often a substitute can be found Mechancial parts (rollers, gears, bearings, etc) : Many can be made in a good workshop if you knwo what is needed What have I misssed ? [1] Seriously, I made a CRT in the school's bell jar. I got a spot on the metal base plate which I'd covered with home-made sinc sulphide. I could deflect this spot electrstatically (a couple of paltes in the jar) or magneitcally. I was fortunately that I managed to convice said school that 'electronics' was a sporting activity :-). Or paehaps they took one look at me and decided that getting me to stand around on a bit of grass was a waste of time for all concerned and I might as well make CRTs, wire-wrap a computer, teach myself metalwork and other fun things. > > > Yes, but working hardware may not stay working. You will have to fix > > things sooner or later. AS I said, there are plenty of people here to > > help you, with knowledge of just about every computer ecver made. But > > unless we're at _your_ bench, we can't do it all... > I can plug in/remove boards Don't go there ;-) > but I prefer to out-source my repair work And you can find people to do it? I am somewhat suprised. People who have the knowledge to repair classic computers are not that commonm and they tend to charge accordingly. OK< I am biased, having bneen fixing classic computers for nearly 30 eyars, but I do feel that if you want ot run the real thing (as opposed to running emulators) you should learn a little aobut how to repair them and keep them going. It's nto that hard... I was taught the old-fashioned method of faultfinding, which has never let me down. It is to _change nothing_ -- certainly not to swap boards, etc at random. Just make measurements. Then think about what those measurements imply about the fault. MAke more measurements if necessary until you knwo what the fualt is. And then (only then) replace the fualty part. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 13:30:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:30:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Sep 26, 12 08:15:08 am Message-ID: > > One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't > aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go > through a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used > for, etc. Sitting o n shelf here I have a cylindrical object about the size of small truncheon. I often ask visitors what it is usef for, I say it's not a weapon of any kind. So far nobody has figured it out. It is, of course, an Otis King helical slide rule. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 13:37:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:37:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348663036.10516.25.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> from "Stefan Skoglund" at Sep 26, 12 02:37:16 pm Message-ID: > I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us occasionally gets > asked : > WHY do you do all that heavy,hot and dirty works for FREE ? > Well, i could answer with: > I pay 250 kr/annum and a bit of sweat (and sometimes skin) for a nice > semester cottage and the privilege to sometimes practise at an old > craft. > Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs (Korpen-players is not always > the kindest types of soccer-players.) A while a go one od the neighbouting houses here cotnained a family, the son of which was into verious sports (unlike me). He would go off most days at weekends nad play rugby or something. He also liked cats. One of his cats visited me form time to time. I didn't mind, I love cats too. Anyway, one day I needed som hexagonal brass rod of a particular dimension. So I drew a little sketch, calcualted the diameter of the circumcircle of the hexagon and how much to mill off ofe each flat. I put a bit of brass rod in the late and turned it ot the diameter of the circumcircle. I was transfering it to the dviding head to mill the 6 flats when said boy uappeerad at the door asking if I'd seen his cat. I hadn't (it turned up unharmed a little later in case anyone's worried). But then he noticed the bit of paper wit hthe diagram and the calcualtions on it. He asked what I was doing anf I explained. He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 13:41:21 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:41:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Sam O'nella" at Sep 26, 12 11:26:11 am Message-ID: > > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should have a lathe"' :-) -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 13:50:46 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:50:46 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> Message-ID: <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 02:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 2:05 AM, Pontus wrote: > >> On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote: >>> "Why?" >>> >>> It's no so much the word as the tone :) >> ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of this. >> > Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history." If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an impression on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed by "I found it in the trash" :) /P From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 13:54:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Chuck Guzis I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics to your microwave oven?? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even refrigerators? seem to have them nowadays). ?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980. ?I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them. C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 14:05:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50633CF9.9050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506330CD.60008@neurotica.com> <20120926095430.D22143@shell.lmi.net> <50633CF9.9050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120926120439.G34800@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, ben wrote: > > "I collect WAFFLES; I have a whole trunkful in the attic" (references an > > ancient vaudeville joke) > and all the syurip in barrel in the basment??? SYRUP??!? They won't last more than a few years if you put syrup on them! From useddec at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:06:56 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:06:56 -0500 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <50633129.2000305@neurotica.com> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> <50633129.2000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I might have a bunch of thek here, but I don't remember tha paet number. Paul On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:45 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 11:42 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> All of the 11/70's that I've refurbished, I've put in PEP-70 & hyper cache boards mainly because I didn't want to deal with the *many* boxes needed to have a full compliment of memory. >> >> I'd love to be able do that. I've got a BA-11 full of 256K cards >> (same ones that work in an 11/750). > > Me too, but not quite full. Anyone have any extra cards? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 14:09:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:09:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >?And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) They take up a lot less room if you just keep the "Enter" key from each keyboard, and throw away the rest! (and just the hood ornament from each car!) From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:12:06 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:12:06 +0000 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1031721239-1348686725-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-492974204-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> (Clippy) "It looks like you're trying to write a thank you letter... May I suggest.." -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:24:14 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >> years. > > Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run > current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting > will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but > eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, > as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. "Thanks, Microsoft." [cue Rabid Richard] -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:15:38 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:15:38 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the > years. A (working) system from 1980 still does what it does in 1980, and in some cases, with recently designed add-ons (like disk emulators with ancient interfaces that use modern FLASH memory, or Ethernet interfaces for machines that never had Ethernet back in the day), *more* than they ever did, but what's changed is what we all expect out of a "computer"... We always processed files, compiled programs, printed images (even if in ASCII art), played music, played games, and more. The data rates and bandwidths and visual/auditory quality keep going up and up, so that what's common now was impossible to achieve with home gear, or at best a very big deal. I certainly play more high-res graphic games than I play text-based console games these days (compared with 1982 when I had a C-64 for video games, and a PET for text/character-graphic games), and the same trend goes for the less computer-involved public who used to game on Atari or NES or whatever before there were massive GPUs for PCs or gaming consoles. At least when you set up an Atari 2600 these days, there's a line of folks who want to play, just for the nostalgia, because it's something *they* remember doing 25 years ago. "They" never sat down at a VT100 or a printing console and installed an operating system (or at least *very* few did). But I hear you - I get asked all the time, "but what's it _good_ for?" I compare it to building ships in bottles - not a productive activity, but an entertaining one. That explanation seems to deflect most of the odd looks. Most. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:17:39 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:17:39 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506327EE.8060801@vaxen.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506327EE.8060801@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <506354D3.2010309@gmail.com> Doc wrote: > Probably not unusual, but my favorite (and this wasn't even a > particularly large system - a PDP11/84 with RX02s, a TSZ07, and an RA60, > so 2 short racks): > > "All that's ONE computer???" I get that a lot about IBM mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Sep 26 14:22:22 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:22:22 -0400 Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tofu wrote > He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. Removing a key cap is a routine request from a keyboard collector; he wants to know what kind of switches it has. I don't see anything to 'beware' of, other than an informed buyer. What are you selling that you think would be damaged by removing a key cap? -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 14:25:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:25:01 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be > proved wrong :-)). That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's exceptional, but it is NOT impossible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 14:27:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors Message-ID: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have to juryrig a video cable for an Amiga 600. 23 pin male on the back. What I happen to have in my stash is a, IIRC, Amiga 1000 floppy cable, clipped at one end, mail 23 pin at the other. Where do I find a female 23 pin thingee to drop into that hood? Anyone got one? Stateside. ?Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and drop it in? I see db25s at digi-key.com (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/cable-assemblies/d-sub/1573638?k=23%20pin%20connector/) but I don't see 23 and don't recall ever seeing them otherwise. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 26 14:31:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few > computers lurking around-- Well, FSVO "computer". For some purposes, an embedded microcontroller counts; for others, it doesn't. > have you looked at the control electronics to your microwave oven? Yes. They fried in a lightning storm. Everything was fine for a while; then, after a lightning storm, it would beep intermittently. It finally occurred to me that if it can beep when it's not supposed to, it can turn on the microwaves when it's not supposed to. So I looked over the circuit, concluded that the control board all culminated in two relays (one for microwaves, one for light and fan and such) and replaced it with zip cord coming out to an external switch. I'm a big believer in "too simple to break". > (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even refrigerators seem > to have them nowadays). They do. That's a reason I avoid "modern" white goods. [In case that idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is North American - or perhaps Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers, refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very relevant.] > I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer > of them. I agree. When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do, sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost always good.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:34:09 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:34:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:04 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > My heart skipped a beat or two when I saw the Subject: line also, > thought the chance of me being able to collect/house such an artifact > is slim to none. I think the OP probably led to accelerated heartbeat > or skipped beats for a lot of people when they read the subject. Mine too. Outside of using the CompuServe service, I never got much direct hands-on (like at the command prompt level) back in the day, but I've still always been fascinated with 36-bit machines. We had a CIS node called "CIVIC" as a functional computer room display at COSI, our science museum, complete with a "DECsystem 20/20" and plastic covers, IIRC. I even worked at CompuServe, about 10 years ago, but I missed the window when they were replacing DEC machines with Systems Concepts machines, and I also missed a garage cleanout or two from old CIS employees who saved machines, but eventually reclaimed the space. I just came along too late to get any goodies. I have set up klh10 and spend hours noodling around, and I do have an account or two on a 36-bit machine that's still powered up, but it's not quite the same as running your own. I would be happy enough with something small like an SC-25 - it's just going to be a single-user workstation, really. Given the size and the scarcity, I think if I ever run native 36-bit hardware, it's going to be an FPGA implementation, and to me, at least, that's one step more interesting than software emulation. I emulate because I must, but I'd love to run the real thing. -ethan From abs at absd.org Wed Sep 26 14:38:14 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:38:14 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I've had from a friend's sister "David's study: thats where computers go to die" :/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 14:40:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > have a lathe"' :-) Because that "rotisserie" doesn't have an adequate spindle speed! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 14:41:48 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: from "Sam O'nella" at Sep 26, 12 11:26:11 am Message-ID: <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should have a lathe"' :-) C: For what may I ask!!?? Removing kernels from the cob? Ornamental shaving of ice pops?! Potato/apple pealing???!!! Boring donut holes!!!!????? I think you've gone and lost it my friend! From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 14:45:21 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:45:21 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348663036.10516.25.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <1348663036.10516.25.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <50635B51.3020702@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 02:37 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > You live in UPPSALA DONT YOU ?? I sure do. > > I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us occasionally gets > asked : Nice, I and my friends try to go at least once a year, I missed out this year though. Surely you must know Roland? I had him as a lecturer. > Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs (Korpen-players is not always > the kindest types of soccer-players.) I try to avoid organized sports. I used to do some rock climbing but not much these days. Regards, Pontus. From Gary at realtimecomp.com Wed Sep 26 14:42:32 2012 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA References: <1AB644BEB49742C9A38D8CA843C9B36D@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C527C@server1.RealTime.local> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Chris Tofu > Sent: Wed 9/26/2012 3:00 PM > Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA > He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. NO intention of actually buying a k/b mind you (not at the > price I'm asking for one, priced _not_ to sell ;). Beware of this guy, he's simply up to no good! You'll try and be nice and wind up > RUINING a keyboard. What chutzpah! > And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) Just for the record (I was the one asking for LA-36 keys) It's not me! I am against breaking up a good keyboard, and only was interested if it was going to be scrapped! Gary From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 26 14:48:39 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:48:39 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com> Chris Tofu wrote: > C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980. Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers. When they started having electronic timers, they were hardwired ASICs, which don't meet any reasonable definition of "computer". They didn't have any ALU, memory, or stored program. Somewhat later they started using single-chip microprocessors similar to the TI TMS1000 series. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 14:47:06 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:47:06 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 06:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote: > >> ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause >> of this. > I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I > will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social > signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're > not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore. > A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to endure you mothers friends.. /P From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 14:52:40 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:52:40 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Indeed! Happen to have a photo of the back? Sent from my iPhone On 2012-09-26, at 1:54 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > like these? > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/ > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> >>> If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with >> Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious. >> >> One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't >> aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through >> a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc. >> >> In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one >> either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient >> Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to >> endless explanation... >> From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 14:54:43 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:54:43 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >>> years. >> >> Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run >> current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting >> will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but >> eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, >> as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. > > "Thanks, Microsoft." > > [cue Rabid Richard] > A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 14:59:29 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:59:29 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50635EA1.3040909@gmail.com> On 26/09/2012 19:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >>> years. >> Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run >> current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting >> will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but >> eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, >> as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. > "Thanks, Microsoft." > > [cue Rabid Richard] > Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a Sun Ultra-60 which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator. The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and 64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its un-usable.... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 15:03:54 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:03:54 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2012-09-26, at 2:30 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> > > Sitting o n shelf here I have a cylindrical object about the size of > small truncheon. I often ask visitors what it is usef for, I say it's not > a weapon of any kind. So far nobody has figured it out. > > It is, of course, an Otis King helical slide rule. > > I have an Otis King in my collection. It's one of my favourites. Very accurate, and IMO quite lovely. I love pointing out that if you straightened out the scales, they would be as tall as I am. I gravitate toward slide rules that have interesting scales or embody unusual ideas. I have a British Thornton side rule with what they call "differential trig" scales - they're supposed to make accurate setting of trig stuff easier. I have an Aristo 969, which is nearly three inches wide. It's one of the largest slide rules made, barring ones intended for teaching. I have a Pickett N4-ES, with 34 scales. As far as I'm aware, it had the largest number of scales ever on a production slide rule. There's a fairly plain Jane Hemmi that says "Made in occupied Japan", and a pre-war Hemmi that has the word "Japan" scratched out with black pen. I could go on for quite a while about my collection:) If you see me around, it's guaranteed I have at least one slide rule on my person. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 26 15:09:31 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:09:31 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506360FB.11033.D5A24E@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2012 at 11:54, Chris Tofu wrote: > ?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first > around 1980. Nope. Mechanical timers. Google "Amana Radarange". The RR-1 though RR-5 (circa 1967-75) all had two mechanical timer dials--a 5 minute dial and a 25 minute dial, which were additive. No door safety latches until about 1973. I just diassembled a 1975 Amana and found a TMS-1000 MCU in it (PMOS). Only two TTL ICs in it--both 7447s. The early Amanas used electromagnets, rather than permanent magnets on the magnetron, which made them *very* heavy. Microcontrollers made it into commercial ovens *much* later. --Chuck From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Sep 26 15:10:15 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:10:15 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus wrote: > > > If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an impression on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed by "I found it in the trash" :) > > Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive devices. My dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the Versalog), adjusted for inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms. Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they know about and understand, then they *really* get it. I can go into a whole long spiel about slide rules and their importance, but when I hand them my Nestler 23R and explain that they are holding the same model used by Einstein, their eyes just light up with amazement. I have yet to find any other way of presenting it that is quite so effective at communicating the wonder to people. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 15:14:55 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:14:55 -0700 Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5063623F.5020900@gmail.com> On 9/26/2012 12:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) > They take up a lot less room if you just keep the "Enter" key from each > keyboard, and throw away the rest! (and just the hood ornament from each > car!) > There is this whole strange keyboard hacking hobby scene. They are after certain keyswitches to re-use. That's why they want pictures. Older Cherry and Dolch keyboards sell for silly money on ebay to this crowd. They actually build whole new keyboards with the 'vintage' keyswitches. If you think the people that love their old IBM keyboards are fanatical these guys will blow your mind. They are really into keyboard like nobody else. Little scary really. Here's and example. http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35642.0 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 15:15:42 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348690542.14110.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >?And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) They take up a lot less room if you just keep the "Enter" key from each keyboard, and throw away the rest!? (and just the hood ornament from each car!) C: They can keep whatever they want, or chuck it all for all I care. They can burn it all in a big pile and send it off to Valhalla. As long as they bid (or in the case of this auction, loan me their cpu card, and I front them the k/b. Shmott, no? heheheh). From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Sep 26 15:18:43 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:18:43 +0200 Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50636323.8050907@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 09:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> And relative to a recent thread, YES he does collect keyboards ;) > They take up a lot less room if you just keep the "Enter" key from each > keyboard, and throw away the rest! (and just the hood ornament from each > car!) > yeah.. I should just cut the label out of my front panels and throw the buttons and stuff out.. (I'd rather have the complete machines actually :/ ) /P From gm10 at consulnix.com Wed Sep 26 15:19:15 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:19:15 -0500 Subject: LOBO Systems MAX-80 Message-ID: Hi, I was curious if anyone had any information about (or experience with) LOBO Systems MAX-80's. I have four of these, and they came with no accessories, documentation, etc. I found an operations manual and a Technical Reference manual, but that's about it. My only testing so far was to connect them to an NTSC monitor, and all I get is some static-like display. Reading the operation manuals, it says something to the extent that it should display static if there are no disk drives attached. But another part of the manual says it should show some text on power-on. I am hoping to connect a floppy to one of these soon, and try to get it to do something useful -- but I wanted to ping the list to see if anybody has played with one of these, or might have additional documentation. Thanks, Garrett Meiers From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 15:21:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348690876.94680.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Ethan Dicks I certainly play more high-res graphic games than I play text-based console games these days (compared with 1982 when I had a C-64 for video games, and a PET for text/character-graphic games)...snip C: Incidentally how rare is Advent for the IBM PC? I used to have a copy. I chucked it. Was that a mistake? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 15:23:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> Message-ID: <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Paul Anderson Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history." C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from 1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers) doesn't arouse the interest of anyone??? ?Or copiers. I got a bag of vintage toner for a sharp unit if anyone's interested (that had an 8088 incidentally). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 15:25:14 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:25:14 -0400 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> <50629ADD.7070302@update.uu.se> <5062AD08.40309@update.uu.se> <0FE22627-144B-4CC1-89FE-C3DD68696119@shiresoft.com> <50633129.2000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I might have a bunch of thek here, but I don't remember tha paet number. >From the PDP-11 Field Guide: M8728-AA MK11 U 64-Kword 39-bit MOS memory array (11/70, 11/750) M8728-AA (Also M8728-AB, -AC, -AD, -AE, -AF, -AH, -AK, -AM, M8728-AA -AN) M8728-CM MK11 U 16-Kword 39-bit MOS memory array (11/70) M8728-CM (Also M8728-CN) As mentioned, the 256Kbyte card works in the PDP-11/70 _and_ the VAX-11/750, but the VAX only has eight memory slots, so that's a max of 2MB. ISTR when originally shipped, the 11/750 came with two cards standard. You had to purchase the next six separately. My 11/750 S/N BT000354 was originally delivered that way, then upgraded to 2MB before I first saw it. I added the wire and newer memory controller board (and fiddled the SID switchpack) to let it take 1MB modules, boosting it to 8MB. I probably still have the original memory, in static bags, untouched since it was removed in the late 1980s. I will be going through that (indoor) storage this fall and keep an eye out. The most I would have would be a half-load for an 11/70. -ethan From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 15:34:13 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <1348691653.94851.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "schoedel at kw.igs.net" On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tofu wrote > He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. Removing a key cap is a routine request from a keyboard collector; he wants to know what kind of switches it has. I don't see anything to 'beware' of, other than an informed buyer. What are you selling that you think would be damaged by removing a key cap? C: Perhaps it's on newer equipment, but you run the risk of breaking the key. ??? Apparently neither he nor you has dismantled every keyboard, so what's to say there isn't a risk? Why the asking? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 26 15:34:15 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics. That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer dial. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 26 15:44:05 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:44:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209262044.QAA10442@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' > To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' You, Sir, are awesome. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 15:44:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120926133702.L34800@shell.lmi.net> On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be > proved wrong :-)). You would love Jeri Ellsworth. Her kitchen is well equipped. From gm10 at consulnix.com Wed Sep 26 15:44:53 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:44:53 -0500 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No affiliation... Shipping is a bit extreme for one, but didn't go up when I added 100 to the cart. :) http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/cabled/DB23FS?pvZSEhFV;;4 Garrett Meiers On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I have to juryrig a video cable for an Amiga 600. 23 pin male on the back. > What I happen to have in my stash is a, IIRC, Amiga 1000 floppy cable, > clipped at one end, mail 23 pin at the other. Where do I find a female 23 > pin thingee to drop into that hood? Anyone got one? Stateside. > Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and drop > it in? I see db25s at digi-key.com ( > http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/cable-assemblies/d-sub/1573638?k=23%20pin%20connector/) > but I don't see 23 and don't recall ever seeing them otherwise. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 15:46:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926134511.C34800@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >?Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and That's what I did. But that was 25+ years ago. Those connectors STILL aren't available? From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 26 15:47:44 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:47:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tofu wrote > >> He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. > > Removing a key cap is a routine request from a keyboard collector; he > wants to know what kind of switches it has. I don't see anything to > 'beware' of, other than an informed buyer. What are you selling that you > think would be damaged by removing a key cap? It depends on the keyboard. I've had some where it was nearly impossible to remove the keycap without pulling apart the microswitch in the process. Most of the time though removing a keycap isn't that difficult (except for laptop keyboards...) From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 26 15:48:35 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 13:48:35 -0700 Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <50636A23.6070705@jwsss.com> A buddy of mine gave me a key puller years ago, and repaired keyboards. YOu don't put a knife or screwdriver under them and pry. No damage at all when done correctly. I pulled all the keys off my most used keyboards and washed, dried and reinstalled them. This is pretty much what I have, but with a white handle. http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard_big.asp?PRODUCT=632 jim On 9/26/2012 12:22 PM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:01:47 -0700 (PDT), Chris Tofu wrote >> He keeps e-mailing me and asking me to pull key tops off of keyboards. > Removing a key cap is a routine request from a keyboard collector; he wants to > know what kind of switches it has. I don't see anything to 'beware' of, other > than an informed buyer. What are you selling that you think would be damaged by > removing a key cap? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 15:51:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:51:45 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50636AE1.9070501@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:31 PM, Mouse wrote: > When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson > to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do, > sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost > always good.) Too bad the world of computing hasn't figured that out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 26 15:58:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:58:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > What strange remark have you had about your collection? "You should sell all that crap for scrap and buy a brand new laptop." I've had people say similar things about my scrap wire bin that I regularly pull wire from while rebuilding and repairing wire harnesses. "You should sell all that copper wire for a lot of money." ...as if the scrappers would /ever/ want small gauge, insulated, _tin plated_ stranded hookup wire... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 16:01:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1348693317.93248.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Mouse > I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer > of them. I agree.? When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson to be learnt from that.? (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do, sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost always good.) C: They are pros, therefore don't need excessive use of timers, therefore "automated" appliances aren't needed. The issue of pros not using them probably has little to do w/other then they don't need them, and probably look down on using them. ???? You generally don't pay big bucks for a meal made by a chef who sticks things in the microwave. ????? Now a restaurant like Olive Garden is another story. I'm sure there's ample use of automated cooking appliances. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Wed Sep 26 16:04:15 2012 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:04:15 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 01:08 PM 26/09/2012, you wrote: >On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > >>"Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife >>although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second. > > Closely followed by, "Are you done with the Apple IIc on the > dining room table?" > > >Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ On the other hand most of the interesting additions to my collection recently have come from fellows who have had to clean out their basements Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 16:04:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:04:49 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would be happy enough with something small like an SC-25 - it's just > going to be a single-user workstation, really. Given the size and the > scarcity, I think if I ever run native 36-bit hardware, it's going to > be an FPGA implementation, and to me, at least, that's one step more > interesting than software emulation. I emulate because I must, but > I'd love to run the real thing. Well, XKL's TOAD-1 is "an FPGA emulation", strictly speaking. It's much more "grown up", though, than somebody spending a year working on the VHDL or Verilog, then copping out and squirting it into a friggin' eval board but never designing any hardware. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 26 16:08:46 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Sam O'nella" at Sep 26, 12 11:26:11 am <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Tony Duell > > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > have a lathe"' :-) > > C: For what may I ask!!?? Removing kernels from the cob? Ornamental > shaving of ice pops?! Potato/apple pealing???!!! Boring donut > holes!!!!????? > > I think you've gone and lost it my friend! A really fun way to make hash browns. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:15:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:15:01 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Mouse wrote: > They do. That's a reason I avoid "modern" white goods. [In case that > idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is North American - or perhaps > Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers, > refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they > are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very > relevant.] I think it's *more* British/Canadian, but I've seen it creeping into US usage, mostly in electronics app notes where it describes the widest array of possible uses for a chip without actually describing any particular use. Handy term, I guess. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:16:35 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:16:35 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain >> 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should >> have a lathe"' :-) > > Because that "rotisserie" doesn't have an adequate spindle speed! Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby carrots. On the other hand, sticking a rotisserie chicken on a machine lathe ought to be a somewhat reliable way of separating grease from meat from bones in the absence of a proper kitchen centrifuge. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:17:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:17:55 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be >> proved wrong :-)). > > That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made > diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a > functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's > exceptional, but it is NOT impossible. What, doesn't everyone have an ion implantation oven next to their KitchenAid? - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 16:19:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:19:50 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would be happy enough with something small like an SC-25 - it's just > going to be a single-user workstation, really. Given the size and the > scarcity, I think if I ever run native 36-bit hardware, it's going to > be an FPGA implementation, and to me, at least, that's one step more > interesting than software emulation. I emulate because I must, but > I'd love to run the real thing. I've been wanting to make an FPGA emulation of a PDP-10 for a while now, but I think my stock of tuits (round and otherwise) has dipped into the negative. One of these days... - Dave From abs at absd.org Wed Sep 26 16:20:09 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:20:09 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26 September 2012 06:58, Adrian Stoness wrote: > is it even usefull anymore Which leads on to the slightly more perverse vintage computing option - running a current OS and (subset of) apps (and then finding a case where the VAX was the only available machine on a segment on to run a dhcp server :) Of course at one point the VAX ended up running RT-11 under under simh. I was going to try VMS under simh as well but ran out of time... (That would tick all the boxes of "vintage hardware", "current OS", "vintage OS", and "needs to get out more") From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 26 16:20:29 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:20:29 +0200 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:23:50 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be > proved wrong :-)). Jeri Ellsworth made her own ICs: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jeriellsworth/sets/72157607161498665/ http://vimeo.com/channels/26257 -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Sep 26 16:22:50 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:22:50 +0100 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9529991C0A6E4151BAC02F9854C6F6C4@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to > be proved wrong :-)). Transiotrs, doidoes and other discretes often > have suitable substitutes still available. Standard ICs are likely to > be avaialble somewhere even if no longer made. Custom ICs are a pain! Does this count: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmotkjMSKnI ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 16:33:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:33:20 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <506374A0.2090600@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:47 PM, Pontus wrote: >>> ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause >>> of this. >> I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I >> will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social >> signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're >> not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore. > > A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to > endure you mothers friends.. No I don't. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 16:33:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:33:54 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <506374C2.4060306@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:47 PM, Pontus wrote: >>> ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause >>> of this. >> I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I >> will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social >> signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're >> not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore. > > A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to > endure you mothers friends.. ...besides, most of her friends are people she knows from online! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 16:33:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C527C@server1.RealTime.local> References: <1AB644BEB49742C9A38D8CA843C9B36D@RealTime.local> <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C527C@server1.RealTime.local> Message-ID: <1348695234.84545.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Gary L. Messick Just for the record (I was the one asking for LA-36 keys) It's not me!? I am against breaking up a good keyboard, and only was interested if it was going to be scrapped! Gary C: I'd like to find some replacement keytops myself. But he just wanted a looksee at the switches I guess. He wasn't even asking to break it up (arguably worse I guess), just pull the tops off for his amusement. I just can't see it. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 26 16:35:19 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:35:19 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50637517.5050503@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/26/2012 12:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: _______________________________ > From: Chuck Guzis > > I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few > computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics > to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, > even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays). > > C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980. > > I've thought it > notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them. > > C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics. > A: uPC's are a marking gimmick for microwaves.Easy to use is not the answer any more. Look at windows interfaces bloat today. The only real good *stolen* feature is cut and paste from application to another. Ben. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 16:36:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Eric Smith >? C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980. Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers. When they started having electronic timers, they were hardwired ASICs, which don't meet any reasonable definition of "computer". They didn't have any ALU, memory, or stored program. Somewhat later they started using single-chip microprocessors similar to the TI TMS1000 series. C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 26 16:36:56 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:36:56 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:41:21 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > have a lathe"' :-) Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Sep 26 16:40:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348695644.22109.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Tofu I have to juryrig a video cable for an Amiga 600. 23 pin male on the back. What I happen to have in my stash is a, IIRC, Amiga 1000 floppy cable, clipped at one end, mail 23 pin at the other. Where do I find a female 23 pin thingee to drop into that hood? Anyone got one? Stateside. ?Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and drop it in? I see db25s at digi-key.com (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/cable-assemblies/d-sub/1573638?k=23%20pin%20connector/) but I don't see 23 and don't recall ever seeing them otherwise. C: I found this: http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/iec/DB23FS if anyone has a similar problem. I'm going to call them tomorrow. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 16:45:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:45:21 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: <50637771.80805@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:54 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >>>> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >>>> years. >>> >>> Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run >>> current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting >>> will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but >>> eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, >>> as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. >> >> "Thanks, Microsoft." >> >> [cue Rabid Richard] >> > > A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... ROFL!!! These kids. Sigh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Sep 26 16:52:31 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >>>> years. >>> >>> Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run >>> current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting >>> will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but >>> eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, >>> as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. >> >> "Thanks, Microsoft." >> >> [cue Rabid Richard] > > A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static > pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount > system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 16:57:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:57:34 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635EA1.3040909@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <50635EA1.3040909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50637A4E.9090509@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 03:59 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a Sun Ultra-60 > which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes > around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator. > The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and > 64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its > un-usable.... Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far from fair, but...What's the config of the U60? If you've got dual 450s and 2GB, which is the most it can support, it should be doing just fine. Another issue there may be GCC, which is hopelessly fat...using the Sun compiler, things will compile much faster, and it generates significantly faster binaries on top of that. Solaris does much, much better on machines with lots of processors. Two (or four, eight...) is not a "lot" of processors...think 16+. Each instance of each device driver runs in its own thread, so I/O is very smoothly interleaved. They can get an amazing amount of work done if one knows what one is doing. That's the kind of system current Solaris is optimal for. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 17:00:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:00:34 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: have to dig it outa storage. i beleave i even have the manual for it... got a couple other ones also they were my grandfathers he was a bush pilot in northern manitoba On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Indeed! Happen to have a photo of the back? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-09-26, at 1:54 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > like these? > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/ > > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > >> On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with > >> Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious. > >> > >> One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't > >> aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go > through > >> a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc. > >> > >> In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one > >> either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient > >> Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed > to > >> endless explanation... > >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 17:12:48 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:12:48 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> Message-ID: you could go when the next big solar flare hits how are we going to do math well i will have the corner of the market on these things On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus wrote: > > > > > > > If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an > impression on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed > by "I found it in the trash" :) > > > > > > Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive > devices. My dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the > Versalog), adjusted for inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms. > > Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they > know about and understand, then they *really* get it. I can go into a whole > long spiel about slide rules and their importance, but when I hand them my > Nestler 23R and explain that they are holding the same model used by > Einstein, their eyes just light up with amazement. I have yet to find any > other way of presenting it that is quite so effective at communicating the > wonder to people. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 17:15:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506360FB.11033.D5A24E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com>, <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506360FB.11033.D5A24E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120926151346.K34800@shell.lmi.net> > On 26 Sep 2012 at 11:54, Chris Tofu wrote: > > ?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first > > around 1980. > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Nope. Mechanical timers. Google "Amana Radarange". He is probably referring to the first ones that HE had, rather than "first" From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 17:24:07 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:24:07 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/03 (australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two listmembers spoke for the 11/03 in australia. Whichever is closest will get forwarded to the offerer. This system is confirmed available. On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP 11/03 available in australia, contact me off-list if interested. > > J > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 17:30:10 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:30:10 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 is no longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:11 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP 11/10 available, appears to be located in Arizona. Please > contact me off-list if interested. > > J From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 17:40:56 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:40:56 -0500 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) WOW In-Reply-To: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> References: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0E63C258-D922-4EAC-BCC4-8CC865280758@classiccmp.org> I have not heard back from the offerer on the PDP11 in brazil. However, I just noticed the picture attachments in the previous email he sent. It is a 10 bay system, comprised of 5 cpu's, they appear to be 11/45's. Two dec mag tapes, and five RK05's as well as RX02 and a few other niceties. The pictures do have a high drool-factor and the systems appear pristine. Soon as I hear back from them, I'll forward to the first person who replied or maybe the first few as this type of system should be a group effort. J On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP11 of unknown model > Used from 1978 until "yesterday" to do the billing for Rio De > Janeiro's Metro transit billing system. > Includes an "EDMONSON" card, whatever that is. > > Contact me off list if interested. > > J > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 17:42:01 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:42:01 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <506331D1.8080403@neurotica.com> <50635BBA.30906@update.uu.se> Message-ID: At 9:47 PM +0200 9/26/12, Pontus wrote: >On 09/26/2012 06:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote: >> >>>ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause >>>of this. >> I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I >>will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social >>signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're >>not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore. >> > >A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to >endure you mothers friends.. You might find this gets better as you get older. In recent years, I've found them to be a great source of highly interesting old free stuff, both computer related and photographic. Of course it helps that in the case of classic computers a lot of my Mom's friends are highly motivated to preserve history. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 17:49:57 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:49:57 -0500 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is already gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as still available. Who is in Seattle? J On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:07 PM, Jay West wrote: > Not sure of location yet, trying to obtain that. Will repost when > location is available. > > PDP-11/05 > paper tape > RL01 > 2 disk packs > manuals & drawings > RT11 manuals > 8 inch floppy drive and floppies > "bunch of cards" > pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 > box of panel light bulbs > parts for core boards > cpu test card > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 18:01:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:01:57 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history." > > C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from 1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers) doesn't arouse the interest of anyone??? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 18:07:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348690876.94680.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <1348690876.94680.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120926160541.S48505@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Incidentally how rare is Advent for the IBM PC? I used to have a > copy. I chucked it. Was that a mistake? "Advent"? or "Adventure"? version published by Microsoft? Did you chuck it before or after getting past the snake? (THROW BIRD) From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Sep 26 18:42:22 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:42:22 -0400 Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <1348691653.94851.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> <1348691653.94851.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >C: Perhaps it's on newer equipment, but you run the risk of breaking the key. > >Apparently neither he nor you has dismantled every keyboard, so what's to >say there isn't a risk? Assuming from the eBay ID you posted that it's HaaTa, he pretty nearly *has* dismantled every keyboard (and cleaned, photographed, and documented it, and reverse-engineered and written protocol translators for a number). >Why the asking? Since you posted here, I assumed it was an on-topic keyboard, which someone here might want to purchase to reunite with its original system. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has some machines without their keyboards, as well as stray keyboards without their machines. -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 18:44:19 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:44:19 -0500 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <20120926134511.C34800@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926134511.C34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: goes in looks in some parts drawers... On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and > > That's what I did. > > But that was 25+ years ago. Those connectors STILL aren't available? > > > > > used to have a bag of a 100 or so of them new old stock at the local hacker space here looks like some idiot tossed all that stuff out wtf? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 18:46:27 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:46:27 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/03 (australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two listmembers spoke for the 11/03 in australia. Whichever is closest will get forwarded to the offerer. This system is confirmed available. On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:02 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP 11/03 available in australia, contact me off-list if interested. > > J > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 18:46:45 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:46:45 -0500 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) WOW In-Reply-To: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> References: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have not heard back from the offerer on the PDP11 in brazil. However, I just noticed the picture attachments in the previous email he sent. It is a 10 bay system, comprised of 5 cpu's, they appear to be 11/45's. Two dec mag tapes, and five RK05's as well as RX02 and a few other niceties. The pictures do have a high drool-factor and the systems appear pristine. Soon as I hear back from them, I'll forward to the first person who replied or maybe the first few as this type of system should be a group effort. J On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:09 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP11 of unknown model > Used from 1978 until "yesterday" to do the billing for Rio De > Janeiro's Metro transit billing system. > Includes an "EDMONSON" card, whatever that is. > > Contact me off list if interested. > > J > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 18:46:59 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:46:59 -0500 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7FB69F49-343C-48AE-88EA-1616ECFE172C@classiccmp.org> Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is already gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as still available. Who is in Seattle? J On Sep 25, 2012, at 9:07 PM, Jay West wrote: > Not sure of location yet, trying to obtain that. Will repost when > location is available. > > PDP-11/05 > paper tape > RL01 > 2 disk packs > manuals & drawings > RT11 manuals > 8 inch floppy drive and floppies > "bunch of cards" > pep-70 upgrade card set for 11/70 > box of panel light bulbs > parts for core boards > cpu test card > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 26 18:49:33 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 00:49:33 +0100 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <20120926133702.L34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 26/09/2012 21:44, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be >> proved wrong :-)). > > You would love Jeri Ellsworth. Her kitchen is well equipped.> I think lots of people would. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 18:55:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 16:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <50636A23.6070705@jwsss.com> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> <50636A23.6070705@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120926165341.L48505@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, jim s wrote: > A buddy of mine gave me a key puller years ago, and repaired keyboards. > YOu don't put a knife or screwdriver under them and pry. > No damage at all when done correctly. I pulled all the keys off my most > used keyboards and washed, dried and reinstalled them. You can make a puller out of a paper clip. BUT, SOME KEYS ON SOME KEYBOARDS, . . . for example, the space bar on IBM M keyboards has some bales that require a tiny amount of additional work, especially on re-assembly. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 19:08:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:08:29 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348693317.93248.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1348693317.93248.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506398FD.8060400@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 05:01 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I agree. When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson > to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do, > sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost > always good.) > > C: They are pros, therefore don't need excessive use of timers, therefore "automated" appliances aren't needed. The issue of pros not using them probably has little to do w/other then they don't need them, and probably look down on using them. Yes and no. They like convenience as much as the next person, but consumer-grade equipment fails under heavy use, and many of them associate such user interfaces with consumer-grade equipment. -Dave (engaged to a chef) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 19:44:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:44:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> . . . and how do you make curly fries? Gallagher: and the Sledge-o-matic will even make french fries! But, I swear that you have to hit that sucker just right! Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 19:46:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:46:01 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5063A1C9.2060305@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 05:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be >>> proved wrong :-)). >> >> That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made >> diodes and transistors at home, and one person I'm aware of has made a >> functional integrated circuit. Granted, a very simple one, and she's >> exceptional, but it is NOT impossible. > > What, doesn't everyone have an ion implantation oven next > to their KitchenAid? If not, they certainly should! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Sep 26 19:51:36 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:51:36 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: <5063A318.9060109@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/09/12 3:54 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> ...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the >>>> years. >>> >>> Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run >>> current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting >>> will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but >>> eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And, >>> as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. >> >> "Thanks, Microsoft." >> >> [cue Rabid Richard] >> > > A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... > Guess he missed that whole "use less energy" meme. --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 19:55:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:55:54 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5063A41A.4070606@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 05:20 PM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 26 September 2012 06:58, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> is it even usefull anymore > > Which leads on to the slightly more perverse vintage computing option > - running a current OS and (subset of) apps (and then finding a case > where the VAX was the only available machine on a segment on to run a > dhcp server :) > > Of course at one point the VAX ended up running RT-11 under under > simh. I was going to try VMS under simh as well but ran out of time... > > (That would tick all the boxes of "vintage hardware", "current OS", > "vintage OS", and "needs to get out more") Don't forget "does far more interesting things than his neighbors who spend their time watching other people chase a ball around in the grass". -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 19:51:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:51:15 -0300 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926134511.C34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9A100C8C7F4349CA88F5F95DF2FE0707@tababook> > But that was 25+ years ago. Those connectors STILL aren't available? It depends on where you live. In Brazil the chances of you getting a DB-23 is nilch. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 20:03:52 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:03:52 -0500 Subject: Microdata Reality M1600 Message-ID: <4CFD4B68-FC2B-493E-BC23-05A14C9214A8@classiccmp.org> I'm pondering starting the restoration project for the M1600. One thing concerns me though, I have fairly high suspicion that the Reflex I drive is "beyond all recall". Before I put a lot of time in starting that project, anyone have a spare Reflex I drive around just in case I get to that point and it's not recoverable? I'd hate to spend all the time on the machine and find out it's unusable. Unlike a lot of other machines, the M1600 is a paperweight without a disc drive.... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 20:08:27 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 21:08:27 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago... -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 26 20:12:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Jeri Ellsworth made her own ICs: But not a microprocessor. Yet. If she were to have been on the SOAR (SmallTalk On A Risc) project, think about what we might be using now! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 26 20:43:03 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:43:03 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5063AF27.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/26/2012 2:34 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics. > > That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer dial. > I think the ones I have seen - 11 push switches 1-9 minutes and stop. Few places I suspect need Potato, popcorn or coffee buttons. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 26 20:58:30 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:58:30 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5063B2C6.1000406@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/26/2012 3:36 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:41:21 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain >> 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should >> have a lathe"' :-) > Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-) > Well all I can say is my workshop has a Ham Sandwich around. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 21:14:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:14:37 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: At 11:36 PM +0200 9/26/12, Jochen Kunz wrote: >Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-) Nice! I assume then that it is suitably dark? If so I'm envious! :-) My Beseler 4x5 and 23C live in the garage. I need to get rid of a bunch of computer junk so I can build a proper darkroom out there! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 26 21:53:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:53:53 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2012 at 14:36, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie > tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to > try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was > rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused. 1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 26 21:58:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:58:36 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: , <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <5063C0DC.12172.E8E408@cclist.sydex.com> > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Potato/apple pealing???!!! That, I can't imagine. What would you use for a clapper? Ringing Nine Tailors with potatoes and apples? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 22:03:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:03:12 -0400 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) WOW In-Reply-To: <0E63C258-D922-4EAC-BCC4-8CC865280758@classiccmp.org> References: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> <0E63C258-D922-4EAC-BCC4-8CC865280758@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5063C1F0.2080300@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 06:40 PM, Jay West wrote: > I have not heard back from the offerer on the PDP11 in brazil. However, > I just noticed the picture attachments in the previous email he sent. > > It is a 10 bay system, comprised of 5 cpu's, they appear to be 11/45's. > Two dec mag tapes, and five RK05's as well as RX02 and a few other > niceties. The pictures do have a high drool-factor and the systems > appear pristine. Soon as I hear back from them, I'll forward to the > first person who replied or maybe the first few as this type of system > should be a group effort. !! Good heavens!! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 22:16:03 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:16:03 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 7:01 PM -0400 9/26/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of >>one of the most important inventions in human history." >> >> C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I >>have an IBM from 1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are >>typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit that sports an IBM >>monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers) >>doesn't arouse the interest of anyone??? > > Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. One of my favorite stores in Portland specializes in two things, traditional Cameras & Darkroom equipment, and Typewriters. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 22:38:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:38:38 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5063CA3E.4040102@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 07:49 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be >>> proved wrong :-)). >> >> You would love Jeri Ellsworth. Her kitchen is well equipped.> > > I think lots of people would. I stand in agreement. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 22:59:42 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 04:59:42 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > have a lathe"' :-) Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :) Dave Caroline From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Sep 26 23:17:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:17:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static >> pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount >> system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... > > Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages? My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great) expense. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 23:26:52 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 00:26:52 -0400 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE494AA-045D-4E69-B5CB-26BE492A899C@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Jay West wrote: > Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is already > gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as still > available. Who is in Seattle? I'm interested in the pep-70, but I'm far from Seattle. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 26 23:26:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 00:26:50 -0400 Subject: Microdata Reality M1600 In-Reply-To: <4CFD4B68-FC2B-493E-BC23-05A14C9214A8@classiccmp.org> References: <4CFD4B68-FC2B-493E-BC23-05A14C9214A8@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5063D58A.8030503@neurotica.com> On 09/26/2012 09:03 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm pondering starting the restoration project for the M1600. One thing > concerns me though, I have fairly high suspicion that the Reflex I drive > is "beyond all recall". Before I put a lot of time in starting that > project, anyone have a spare Reflex I drive around just in case I get to > that point and it's not recoverable? I'd hate to spend all the time on > the machine and find out it's unusable. Unlike a lot of other machines, > the M1600 is a paperweight without a disc drive.... I do not, but I also have a '1600. Sans disk drive, sadly. I also lack power supplies, but that's easy. I'm interested to hear of any progress you make on the system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 26 23:35:01 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:35:01 -0500 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) Message-ID: Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. Still sitting in the datacenter..... http://www.ezwind.net/brazil DECporn at it's best. J From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 00:22:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063C0DC.12172.E8E408@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5063C0DC.12172.E8E408@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120926221706.R54970@shell.lmi.net> > > Potato/apple pealing???!!! On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That, I can't imagine. What would you use for a clapper? Ringing > Nine Tailors with potatoes and apples? Is that a peel to our spelling capabilities? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 00:44:10 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 00:44:10 -0500 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: it blongs in a museum! On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. > > J > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 00:49:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:49:17 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5063E8DD.9050604@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 12:35 AM, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. "Maybell, fetch the basin!" -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 00:49:57 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:49:57 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 12:35 AM, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. Wow! -ethan From scott at kevill.com Thu Sep 27 00:54:09 2012 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:54:09 +0800 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926221706.R54970@shell.lmi.net> References: , <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5063C0DC.12172.E8E408@cclist.sydex.com> <20120926221706.R54970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 27/09/2012, at 1:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> Potato/apple pealing???!!! > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> That, I can't imagine. What would you use for a clapper? Ringing >> Nine Tailors with potatoes and apples? > > Is that a peel to our spelling capabilities? I think we've heard that old's piel before. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 00:57:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:57:05 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5063EAB1.7010407@neurotica.com> Running! On 09/27/2012 01:44 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > it blongs in a museum! > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. >> Still sitting in the datacenter..... >> >> http://www.ezwind.net/brazil >> >> DECporn at it's best. >> >> J >> >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 01:05:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 23:05:29 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926221706.R54970@shell.lmi.net> References: , <1348688508.90005.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <5063C0DC.12172.E8E408@cclist.sydex.com> <20120926221706.R54970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5063ECA9.6080309@sydex.com> On 09/26/2012 10:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is that a peel to our spelling capabilities? I'm nothing if not a real PAL. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 01:03:31 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 03:03:31 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) References: Message-ID: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> > it blongs in a museum! In my humble opinion, it must be parted in 5 2-rack kits, and distribuited among brazilian USERS. This is something VERY VERY VERY RARE in Brazil, there is no why to keep a system this size locked behind a glass wall. And remembering, there is NO computer museum in Brazil which is sufficiently backed by our computer companies. There is the "museu do computador" but mostly no financial contribuitions, please correct me if I'm wrong. From robert at irrelevant.com Thu Sep 27 01:12:27 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:12:27 +0100 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 September 2012 05:35, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. I'm not a PDP person (used to use them, would like to play MUD on a System-10 again, but not really my thing for collecting) but wow, just wow. That's gorgeous :-) Rob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 01:23:40 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 02:23:40 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> Message-ID: > In my humble opinion, it must be parted in 5 2-rack kits, and > distribuited among brazilian USERS. This is something VERY VERY VERY RARE in > Brazil, there is no why to keep a system this size locked behind a glass > wall. > > And remembering, there is NO computer museum in Brazil which is > sufficiently backed by our computer companies. There is the "museu do > computador" but mostly no financial contribuitions, please correct me if I'm > wrong. Curious: how many computer collectors do you think are in Brazil? Or South America in general? -- Will From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 27 01:31:18 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:31:18 +0200 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38373bd450dc1e908e4dc526c7575e64.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 > days. Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. > > J > > Holy poly Batman, we need to blast some rock to create more space in the Batcave. it will quadruple our computing power! -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From nick.allen at comcast.net Tue Sep 25 22:12:05 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 22:12:05 -0500 Subject: Scelbi PCB Card Guides Message-ID: <50627285.7020805@comcast.net> Hi Everyone, had an amazing time at VCFMW this year, looking forward to VCF East! Anyone have any recommendations on where to source the PCB card guides used in the Scelbi? I am working on a chasis for a Mark 8 Minicomputer and want to use the same style card guides. Thanks for your time, -Nick From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Sep 26 15:35:57 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:35:57 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > Honeywell Kitchen Computer? > 3COM Audrey? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 01:49:56 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:49:56 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50637A4E.9090509@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <50635EA1.3040909@gmail.com> <50637A4E.9090509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5063F714.8010900@gmail.com> On 26/09/2012 22:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 03:59 PM, Dave Wade wrote: >> Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a Sun Ultra-60 >> which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes >> around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator. >> The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and >> 64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its >> un-usable.... > Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far from > fair, but...What's the config of the U60? I thought this was flame war and advocacy, and "fair" had gone out of the window... ... but I didn't realize it was 15 years old. > If you've got dual 450s and > 2GB, which is the most it can support, it should be doing just fine. > Another issue there may be GCC, which is hopelessly fat...using the Sun > compiler, things will compile much faster, and it generates > significantly faster binaries on top of that. I think it only has 600 MB of RAM, but its a dual 450 with a 15k disk from an IBM server and of course Hercules won't compile with Sun Studio.. .. I keep it because its sometimes more nostalgic nice to have a slow mainframe. To be fair the PC I use is a 4-core 23Ghz i5 with 12 gb of RAM so its pretty slick. > Solaris does much, much better on machines with lots of processors. > Two (or four, eight...) is not a "lot" of processors...think 16+. Each > instance of each device driver runs in its own thread, so I/O is very > smoothly interleaved. They can get an amazing amount of work done if > one knows what one is doing. That's the kind of system current Solaris > is optimal for. Ah yes I kind of understood that.... > -Dave > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 01:53:52 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 03:53:52 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> Message-ID: <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> It depends on what they collect. I know many of them, there are lots and lots. And I'm the ONLY one who had dec gear in the past, and no dec gear in the present. I believe Jay was contacted by more than 2 collectors (me and the curator of the "museu do Computador")...But not THAT many with space and resources to have a two-rack computer at home. Of course, these are only sugestions. I have no right to decide the future of this darn nice computer. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:23 AM Subject: Re: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) >> In my humble opinion, it must be parted in 5 2-rack kits, and >> distribuited among brazilian USERS. This is something VERY VERY VERY RARE >> in >> Brazil, there is no why to keep a system this size locked behind a glass >> wall. >> >> And remembering, there is NO computer museum in Brazil which is >> sufficiently backed by our computer companies. There is the "museu do >> computador" but mostly no financial contribuitions, please correct me if >> I'm >> wrong. > > Curious: how many computer collectors do you think are in Brazil? Or > South America in general? > > -- > Will From useddec at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 03:09:58 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 03:09:58 -0500 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? Paul On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. > > J > From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 27 03:51:21 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:51:21 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063AF27.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063AF27.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <50641389.1010600@update.uu.se> On 09/27/2012 03:43 AM, ben wrote: > > > I think the ones I have seen - 11 push switches 1-9 minutes and stop. > Few places I suspect need Potato, popcorn or coffee buttons. > Ben. > > > ugh, this is one of my pet peeves, a microwave oven need to dials, one timer and one for power.. and you could even skip the power dial for all I care. /P From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 27 04:07:16 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:07:16 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> Message-ID: <50641744.6060701@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 10:10 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> >> If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an impression on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed by "I found it in the trash" :) >> >> > Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive devices. My dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the Versalog), adjusted for inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms. Oh, haven't though about it, but I guess it took a bit of craftsmanship back then to get them accurate and usable. I'll definitely hang on to my fathers slide rule.. heck I might even learn how to use it. > > Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they know about and understand, then they *really* get it. That is also true. I have a alpha rack which used to be part of a Top-500 computer. Not just the model, but the actual computer. Supercomputers is something that people "understand". /P From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 04:10:23 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:10:23 +0100 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27 September 2012 09:09, Paul Anderson wrote: > Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. > Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? > I think I've just had 'a moment' :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 04:14:04 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:14:04 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50641389.1010600@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063AF27.2050801@jetnet.ab.ca> <50641389.1010600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Pontus wrote: > ugh, this is one of my pet peeves, a microwave oven need to dials, one timer > and one for power.. and you could even skip the power dial for all I care. > > /P Well, here in France, the el-super-cheap microwave sold by the local supermarket chain (Carrefour) has exactly that. The only problem is that short times (<30s) are very hard to do. We end up using a separate time for the instances where that is necessary. Do that often enough, you'll appreciate the pushbutton interface. (The timer knob shaft also has some play in it, cheap construction - sometimes the oven stops without the "ding" (mechanical bell) And yes, this is a brand-new device.) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 07:41:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:41:48 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >> >> Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages? > > My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great) expense. Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's no way that system could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for bitcoin mining, at which point any reason for a big CPU and gobs of RAM goes out the window. - Dave From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Sep 27 07:48:14 2012 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:48:14 -0400 Subject: LOBO Systems MAX-80 Message-ID: <1dba6ce2$1cd5be05$7c5e8890$@com> > > Hi, > > I was curious if anyone had any information about (or experience with) LOBO > Systems MAX-80's. I have four of these, and they came with no > accessories, documentation, etc. > > I found an operations manual and a Technical Reference manual, but that's > about it. > > My only testing so far was to connect them to an NTSC monitor, and all I > get is some static-like display. Reading the operation manuals, it says > something to the extent that it should display static if there are no disk > drives attached. But another part of the manual says it should show some > text on power-on. > It's not saying that you will get something on the screen without disk drives attached, it's saying that AND valid boot media..Do you have boot disks? Otherwise you're not going to get very far. On my web site I have the scan of the page that you need to know where to attach the drive, but it's documented in the manual. There are boot media images online you can build using the ImageDisk. Bill From gm10 at consulnix.com Thu Sep 27 07:57:22 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 07:57:22 -0500 Subject: LOBO Systems MAX-80 In-Reply-To: <1dba6ce2$1cd5be05$7c5e8890$@com> References: <1dba6ce2$1cd5be05$7c5e8890$@com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info. I'm going to find some disk images and attach a drive, hopefully his weekend. I'm hoping these work, because I find them really neat, for some reason. Garrett Meiers On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:48 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I was curious if anyone had any information about (or experience with) > LOBO > > Systems MAX-80's. I have four of these, and they came with no > > accessories, documentation, etc. > > > > I found an operations manual and a Technical Reference manual, but > that's > > about it. > > > > My only testing so far was to connect them to an NTSC monitor, and all I > > get is some static-like display. Reading the operation manuals, it says > > something to the extent that it should display static if there are no > disk > > drives attached. But another part of the manual says it should show > some > > text on power-on. > > > > It's not saying that you will get something on the screen without disk > drives attached, it's saying that AND valid boot media..Do you have boot > disks? Otherwise you're not going to get very far. On my web site I have > the scan of the page that you need to know where to attach the drive, but > it's documented in the manual. There are boot media images online you can > build using the ImageDisk. > > Bill > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 27 08:40:43 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 06:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microdata Reality M1600 In-Reply-To: <4CFD4B68-FC2B-493E-BC23-05A14C9214A8@classiccmp.org> References: <4CFD4B68-FC2B-493E-BC23-05A14C9214A8@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Jay West wrote: > I'm pondering starting the restoration project for the M1600. One thing > concerns me though, I have fairly high suspicion that the Reflex I drive is > "beyond all recall". Before I put a lot of time in starting that project, > anyone have a spare Reflex I drive around just in case I get to that point > and it's not recoverable? I'd hate to spend all the time on the machine and > find out it's unusable. Unlike a lot of other machines, the M1600 is a > paperweight without a disc drive.... > Jay, got pics of that system? I love old (and new!) Pick boxen. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 09:03:50 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:03:50 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history." >> >> C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from 1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers) doesn't arouse the interest of anyone??? > > Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. Partaken by some of us here. *hint* *hint* Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 09:08:48 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:08:48 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. > Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. I have a *fairly* new one *now*. Peace... Sridhar From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:11:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id TRIPLEHAATA In-Reply-To: <50636323.8050907@update.uu.se> References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926120724.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <50636323.8050907@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <1348758692.4440.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Pontus yeah.. I should just cut the label out of my front panels and throw the buttons and stuff out.. (I'd rather have the complete machines actually :/ ) /P C: Dude, years ago there were 2 guys sporting PDP/8e's IIRC. One had the real thing, replete w/oozing capacitors. The other had this little thing that could fit in a show box. Both were named Dave, again IIRC. IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE A VINTAGE FEST. But the *other* Dave brought his little contraption, date code 2004. ?One thing I'll point out is the *other* Dave didn't need laparoscopic surgery as a result of showing off his PDP/whatever. He was kind of a weird guy though. Got a job w/Microsloth (don't listen to Fred, I, even I invented that term!), and blew the community off, took off w/their domain name. They had to hire a private investigator or something close to find him! No one's heard from him since. You know one just might wonder if he was _sent_ there by M* to spy out illegal distributing of wares and whatnot. Makes you wonder... ?Needless to say the other Dave (not *other*) was much cooler. He had official vintage gear. And had a TI Pro at home w/a mondo cool IBM compatibility board. That's the kind of Dave I like! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:14:58 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:14:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> <1348685645.53450.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348758898.99446.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Griffith On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics. That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer dial. C: Their ovens get used day and night. Why run the risk of some electronic component failing when you're cranking out souflees? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:18:39 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Riley Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby carrots.? C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh. On the other hand, sticking a rotisserie chicken on a machine lathe ought to be a somewhat reliable way of separating grease from meat from bones in the absence of a proper kitchen centrifuge. C: Alright whatever. Just take a nap, you'll feel better. From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 10:21:13 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:21:13 -0700 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50646EE9.4020902@gmail.com> On 9/27/2012 1:09 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Wow-very nice. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. > Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? > > Paul I was thinking the same thing - "Nice Racks!" Oh. Wait. That's messed up... Rob. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:24:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <9529991C0A6E4151BAC02F9854C6F6C4@ANTONIOPC> References: <9529991C0A6E4151BAC02F9854C6F6C4@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <1348759464.28440.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "arcarlini at iee.org" Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: Does this count: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmotkjMSKnI ? C: Absolutely. And although I already knew about her (most people do) thanks for directing me to her videos. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 10:24:52 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:24:52 +0100 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n Message-ID: When PETs were common and had revolting chicklet keyboards I attacked my pet http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key set from something obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of keys? Dave Caroline From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:28:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire ? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:31:46 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 26 Sep 2012 at 14:36, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie > tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to > try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was > rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused. 1980?? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays. C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure that had them also. ?And incidentally when I referred to the *first* uwave ovens, I was referring to consumer models. The ones you spoke of dating back to the 60s probably weren't available or practical for home use. But I could stand to be corrected. No one I know of had one much before 1980. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:33:19 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926160541.S48505@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <1348690876.94680.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926160541.S48505@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348759999.94585.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Incidentally how rare is Advent for the IBM PC? I used to have a > copy. I chucked it. Was that a mistake? "Advent"? or "Adventure"?? version published by Microsoft? Did you chuck it before or after getting past the snake? (THROW BIRD) C: Well Advent was short for Adventure afaik. Used to play it on paper terminals in high school. But yes it was by M*. I chucked it long before then. I actually never played it. Came w/a huge lot of other stuff. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:36:15 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: References: <1348682507.21710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926191704.M12499@kw.igs.net> <1348691653.94851.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348760175.87670.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Kevin Schoedel Assuming from the eBay ID you posted that it's HaaTa, he pretty nearly *has* dismantled every keyboard (and cleaned, photographed, and documented it, and reverse-engineered and written protocol translators for a number). C: I hadn't realized there was that much interest in k/b's. But writing protocol translators has nothing to do w/keytops. Strange but who am I to criticize someone's hobby. >Why the asking? Since you posted here, I assumed it was an on-topic keyboard, which someone here might want to purchase to reunite with its original system. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has some machines without their keyboards, as well as stray keyboards without their machines. C: What I meant was why ask what's under a key if you've never taken a look at that particular keyboard. I was stating the person asking doesn't know if the k/b could be damaged. Strange wording on my part. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:39:45 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348760385.17409.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. C: You're not going to get Bridgeport accuracy regardless, cuz BP never made a lathe. But the question remains why is Myford accuracy necessary in the kitchen??? Alright forget it, I don't want to know! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:41:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: William Donzelli About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago... C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years ago. ???? Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed to going to Radio Shack. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 27 10:45:43 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:45:43 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201209271546.q8RFkaDb039617@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:54 PM 9/26/2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few >computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics >to your microwave oven? [...] I've thought it >notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them. That is increasingly less true. - John From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:47:52 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Jeri Ellsworth made her own ICs: But not a microprocessor.? Yet. If she were to have been on the SOAR (SmallTalk On A Risc) project, think about what we might be using now! C: But she's utilizing old world technologies, homemade furnaces and whatnot. She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her. But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground. You need people who will think out of the box, and the emphasis is on *thinking*. You're not going to come up w/anything new unless you're mired in those lines of thinking. ?I had an instructor in college who was very depressed. He said since the laser and transistor nothing new has been invented. Only shrunken down, or made cheaper to manufacture. Some "older" particle physicists bemoan the concentration on avant garde theories having to do w/strings and whatnot, stuff that largely lacks falsification criteria. People go where there's the hype, and don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:50:25 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave Caroline > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > have a lathe"' :-) Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :) Dave Caroline C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me! From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 10:54:17 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:54:17 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? > > Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 10:54:56 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:54:56 +0000 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Same as computer hobby. Weight/shipping rivals the value of many type writers. So while the crowd is out there you have to find the person locally or with the funds and space for another type writer. On the flip side there are/were a few that could actually run cpm and didn't advertise their computer ability. -----Original Message----- From: Chris Tofu Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:28:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? From: Dave McGuire ? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:55:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Sridhar Ayengar >? ? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. Partaken by some of us here.? *hint*? *hint* Peace...? Sridhar C: So make me an offer :). Not sure if I want to sell it at this point. It actually works, but is slooooooow. Needs a lube job. It's the first vintage item I've actually found on the side of the road, despite numerous claims that vintage stuff is EVERYWHERE. I've developed an emotional attachment because of that. ?Anyone else have an IBM typewriter from 1951? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 10:58:16 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:58:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348761496.8178.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Sridhar Ayengar Fred Cisin wrote: > Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. > Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. I have a *fairly* new one *now*. Peace...? Sridhar C: Fairly new wot? Apple/potato peeler? Bridgeport? Lathe? All of the above? ???? Real men use their Leatherman to peel their apples anyway. Or eats them with the skin! I have getting that crap stuck in my teeth though. And I liked sauteed taters w/the skin thank you. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 11:00:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1348761624.79694.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave Caroline C: PrOn? District 9??? From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 11:13:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:13:31 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3AF1B31D-6B22-4A1A-874A-FCB49BFE841D@gmail.com> On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie >> tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to >> try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was >> rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused. > > 1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays. > > C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure that had them also. I've never seen green Nixie tubes. Are you talking about the VFDs which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish green? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd call them Nixies. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 11:15:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120927091404.C70033@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C:\DERP> See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby > carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh. You would be amazed at what percentage of "baby" carrots are FRAUDULENT adult carrots cut down to impersonate babies. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 11:20:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:20:17 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348760385.17409.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760385.17409.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. > Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. > > C: You're not going to get Bridgeport accuracy regardless, cuz BP never made a lathe. But the question remains why is Myford accuracy necessary in the kitchen??? Alright forget it, I don't want to know! Why would you want an imprecisely peeled apple? Good tools are worth paying for, and I'll have you know I get a lot of positive comments on the results from my carrot lathe. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 11:24:40 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:24:40 -0400 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > When PETs were common and had revolting chicklet keyboards I attacked my pet > > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG > > I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key > set from something > obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of keys? That's very interesting. I started on a chicklet keyboard PET at the public library, but by the time I'd saved up enough to get my own (with matching contributions from my mother), the current models were the BASIC 2.0 16K and 32K 2001s (same as the 3016 and 3032 in Europe), so I never had to "upgrade" mine. I did, however, for the experimental value, completely deconstruct what was formerly an airline reservation terminal keyboard with individual switches and wire up my own grid. It's been a lot of years, but my fuzzy memories tell me I made a hex keypad for the User Port out of the parts I stripped from the original keyboard. It worked electrically but the keys were sculpted based on what row they came from, so a 4x4 grid of keys from different rows didn't look so nice and was slightly difficult to type quickly on. I don't recognize your upper row of keys except that the yellow ones remind me of that airline reservation terminal with column and field navigation keys. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 11:26:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:26:26 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50647E32.4080200@sydex.com> On 09/27/2012 08:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > 1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays. C: About > then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie > tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a > green display also. Pretty sure that had them also. And incidentally > when I referred to the *first* uwave ovens, I was referring to > consumer models. The ones you spoke of dating back to the 60s probably > weren't available or practical for home use. But I could stand to be > corrected. No one I know of had one much before 1980. This sounds more like a VFD rather than Nixie--(almost) all of the Nixies I've ever seen have been neon orange. Up until very recently, VFDs could been seen on credit card terminals. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 11:39:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120927093604.O70033@shell.lmi.net> > > About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors > > in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. > > Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago... On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years ago. Even earlier (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925) Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't really a basement. > Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed to going to Radio Shack. Is that where Radio Shack was buying theirs? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 11:49:29 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:49:29 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Dave Caroline > > >> According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain >> 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should >> have a lathe"' :-) > > Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :) > > Dave Caroline > > C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me! the console had the stepper drivers in!, look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill http://www.linuxcnc.org/ Dave Caroline From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 11:56:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:56:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348764984.27614.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Jason McBrien > C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? C: Ok, different category though. Which goes to show this hobby often isn't about "old", but rather about "familiar". ????? Please don't show me anymore stuff. The darker colored models (red, green, BLUE, black) are rather nice to look at. Do any of those sport uP support? Perhaps a strange question, but I personally can't see myself collecting analog equipment of that sort at this point. ?Now there's a reason for me to hold on to my little buddy. One day it'll achieve widespread recognition. Maybe I should also hold on to my Vicki (currently up for auction). I'll never see one again that's for sure. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Sep 27 11:57:07 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:57:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote: >>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> >>>> A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static >>>> pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount >>>> system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>> >>> Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up >>> pages? >> >> My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great) >> expense. > > Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's no way that system > could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for bitcoin mining, > at which point any reason for a big CPU and gobs of RAM goes out the > window. Password cracking then? http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/08/passwords-under-assault/ There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for such a small task without some other background motive. A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache). I'm not sure I'd try it today with a 486 based system due to latency and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards), but any Pentium (or AMD) based computer dating from about mid '95 on could easily handle the described task. The only CPU I wouldn't give the task to would be an early Intel Pentium 4, which IMO is one of the worst things that ever came out of Intel. The early P4 CPU is nothing more than an overgrown space heater. Northwood was a major improvement, and Prescott might as well have not even been the same processor, but had Intel not halted all development on the Pentium 3 (and made support chipsets unavailable) Willamette would have surely flopped and the P4 would have never caught on in the market. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Sep 27 12:00:12 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:00:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Jason McBrien wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? > > Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions. Online guys can "ask" whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't bother with them at local auctions because of the bulk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 12:00:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20120927095748.T70033@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > C:\DERP> So why little or no interest in an IBM? How old is it? I had one, and had difficulty giving it away. But that was an electric. The collectible ones are generally MUCH older than that, although there does seem to be some interest in the WW2 portables. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:00:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348765235.37082.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> oh look, someone got 30$ for one. Yay: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=%28old%2Cearly%2Cancient%2C195*%29+ibm+type*&_sacat=0&_odkw=selectric&_sop=16&_osacat=0&LH_Complete=1 Time to sell, time to sell. There are others unsold ones there, I don't know what their problem is (9.99$). Look dusty. Do I hear 35$... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 12:07:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C:\DERP> So make me an offer :). Not sure if I want to sell it at this > point. > . . . I've developed an emotional attachment because of that. That's a perfectly valid reason to hang onto it. Fix it up and use it! Gut a few keyboards to get switches to put on the underside of the key levers, add a lot of solenoids, and build a terminal out of it! >?Anyone else have an IBM typewriter from 1951? 1951??!? That's not old. Collectibel is MUCH older. Hang onto it for another 50 years, and THEN it will be collectible. I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell was awesome, but some of that was because my father never used the right oil when he used it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 12:13:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348761496.8178.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> <1348761496.8178.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120927100917.Q70033@shell.lmi.net> > > > Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago. > > > Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy. > > I have a *fairly* new one *now*. > C:\DERP> Fairly new wot? Apple/potato peeler? Bridgeport? Lathe? All of > the above? probably apple or potato. They don't last long after you peel them. >???? Real men use their Leatherman to peel their apples anyway. Or eats > them with the skin! I have getting that crap stuck in my teeth though. > And I liked sauteed taters w/the skin thank you. Mmmmm. Taters Apple pie is better with them peeled. I use a Victorinox/Forstner? knife. I have an apple lathe that is about a century old, but it's slower than a fast knife. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:16:13 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1348766173.31484.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "barythrin at gmail.com" Same as computer hobby. Weight/shipping rivals the value of many type writers. So while the crowd is out there you have to find the person locally or with the funds and space for another type writer. C: Anyone can see that the colorful ones are very attractive. Most people could do w/one. Shipping shouldn't be horrendous unless it had to cross the entire fruited plane. On the flip side there are/were a few that could actually run cpm and didn't advertise their computer ability.? C: Please name them. I know some word processors ran DOS. Did any run cp/m-86? I'm big into cp/m-86 these days. Seeing all my Canon AS-100 disks have crapped the bed (some were cp/m-86, but most were dos). Maybe the 8" disks will have survived the ravages of time and moisture (and heat). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:17:50 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:17:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <3AF1B31D-6B22-4A1A-874A-FCB49BFE841D@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3AF1B31D-6B22-4A1A-874A-FCB49BFE841D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1348766270.56023.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Riley ? I've never seen green Nixie tubes.? Are you talking about the VFDs which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish green?? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd call them Nixies. C: I call them potatoes. You call them pototoes. Oi whatever. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:20:35 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927091404.C70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927091404.C70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348766435.44604.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C:\DERP> See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby > carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh. You would be amazed at what percentage of "baby" carrots are FRAUDULENT adult carrots cut down to impersonate babies. C: I was a fraudulent adult once. I applied for a job while still in 10th grade, posing as an 18 year old (I was 16). Some say I'm still a fraudulent adult. I say the claim is credible. ?Any other fraudulent adults on the list here? From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 27 12:39:23 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:39:23 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:05 PM > On 09/26/2012 03:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I would be happy enough with something small like an SC-25 - it's just >> going to be a single-user workstation, really. Given the size and the >> scarcity, I think if I ever run native 36-bit hardware, it's going to >> be an FPGA implementation, and to me, at least, that's one step more >> interesting than software emulation. I emulate because I must, but >> I'd love to run the real thing. > Well, XKL's TOAD-1 is "an FPGA emulation", strictly speaking. It's > much more "grown up", though, than somebody spending a year working on > the VHDL or Verilog, then copping out and squirting it into a friggin' > eval board but never designing any hardware. ;) Not, strictly speaking, true. The FPGAs + AMD 29xx sequencer in the XKL-1 CPU implement a microcode engine, and the extended PDP-10 architecture is then implemented in microcode just as in the KL-10 and KS-10 processors. The later XKL-2 processor, implemented in a single FPGA, is much closer to what Ethan means, I would think, although still microcoded. The ucode is part of the overall loadup of the FPGA from ROM at power-up. Perhaps Ethan has in mind something more like what Neil Franklin attempted a decade ago, or "dgcx" more recently. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From schoedel at kw.igs.net Thu Sep 27 12:44:07 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:44:07 -0400 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120927174130.M34486@kw.igs.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:24:52 +0100, Dave Caroline wrote > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG > > I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key > set from something > obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of keys? Second item here: http://ferretronix.com/march/mystery/ -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:49:24 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760385.17409.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348768164.19242.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Riley Why would you want an imprecisely peeled apple?? Good tools are worth paying for, and I'll have you know I get a lot of positive comments on the results from my carrot lathe. C: What could possibly be added to the shape of a carrot??? It's already an exquisitely machined device. Men build lathes (and you bought yours??? huh?), but only God can make a carrot. Men also build salads. I forgot that part. ?The upcoming Make has a writeup of the mutlimachine-lathe by Pat Delany if anyone's interested (I hope I got the specifics right). Major material - concrete. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:53:51 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <20120927093604.O70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927093604.O70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1348768431.52556.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin > > About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors > > in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. > > Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago... On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years ago. Even earlier? (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925) C: I don't know. Canadians seem to bat 1,000 when it comes to innovation. I think I'm becoming jealous here. ???? I'm probably not the first one on the list to be informed of this. Why all the hubbub over Shockley then??? Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't really a basement. C: Sorry. I meant crawl space. > Did he actually think he was saving money as opposed to going to Radio Shack. Is that where Radio Shack was buying theirs? C: From him? Directly? Is he up to date on his tax payments? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 12:54:52 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:54:52 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506492EC.7040902@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/27/2012 10:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill > http://www.linuxcnc.org/ > > Dave Caroline > With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody doing metal toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one. Ben. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Sep 27 12:57:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave Caroline > C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me! the console had the stepper drivers in!, C: actually the steppers were slapped on to the mill itself. I still have them, but they're trash. look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill http://www.linuxcnc.org/ C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger... ?A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby? From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 27 13:22:14 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:22:14 +0200 Subject: SGI Espressigo [Was: Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926101542.Y22143@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50649956.7020708@update.uu.se> On 09/26/2012 07:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: >> "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > Honeywell Kitchen Computer? > The only computer my wife has agreed to have in the kitchen is the SGI Espressigo: http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/computer/pictures/sgi%20espressigo/sgi_espressigo_small.jpg So help a fellow geek get his dream of a computer in the kitchen fulfilled! Anyone has one for sale or trade? Even if you are not willing to part with it, it would be fun to hear from you. I know of two or three in collectors hands but I really have no idea how rare or common these things are. Cheers, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:26:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:26:14 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927095748.T70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1121204972-1348761297-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1354518894-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20120927095748.T70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50649A46.3040300@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 01:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> C:\DERP> So why little or no interest in an IBM? > > How old is it? > I had one, and had difficulty giving it away. But that was an electric. > > The collectible ones are generally MUCH older than that, although there > does seem to be some interest in the WW2 portables. A friend of the family is a somewhat well-known typewriter collector. Most of the machines in his collection are more than a century old. Keep in mind that ours is a very young field, compared to most other stuff. A 40-year-old computer is a big deal...a 40-year-old typewriter is something someone will probably still be using and not thinking of as anything particularly "antique"-like. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:29:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:29:35 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays > nixie tubes I should ask?). *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not "GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:31:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:31:37 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 11:47 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: But she's utilizing old world technologies, homemade furnaces and > whatnot. So if something is home-made, it's "old world"? No. Further, there's a commercial furnace on her workbench in those photos. There's very little that's home-made there. (except her chips of course) > She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her. > But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground. She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough funding for that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:32:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:32:30 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <3AF1B31D-6B22-4A1A-874A-FCB49BFE841D@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <3AF1B31D-6B22-4A1A-874A-FCB49BFE841D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50649BBE.1020809@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 12:13 PM, David Riley wrote: >> C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure that had them also. > > I've never seen green Nixie tubes. Are you talking about the VFDs > which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish > green? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd > call them Nixies. I wouldn't, because they're not. ;) Plain and simple. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 13:33:12 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:33:12 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012, at 13:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell was awesome, but > some of that was because my father never used the right oil when he used > it. Well whale oil wasn't available? - Dave From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 27 13:33:32 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:33:32 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348663036.10516.25.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120927203332.80f1edee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:37:05 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > 'You play sport _for fun_????' Well. I am a runner. I enjoy running through the palatinate woods for some 10 km to 15 km about three times a week. Before I got health trouble with my back, I used to run 20 km to 30 km. Just for fun. Just because I can. Unfortunately I never had the chance to run a marathon, but was able to do it. Somthing that I never expected to happen. Though, I don't like sorts that involve balls and the like. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:33:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:33:53 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby. > > C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? First, there are LOTS AND LOTS of them out there. There are many people who are interested in them...but they already have some. Keep in mind that, until the past 20-30 years, the number of typewriters in the world absolutely DWARFED the number of computers in the world. Second, they're heavy and expensive to ship. Third, what you're talking about is half a century newer than anything most of these people are interested in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 13:35:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:35:13 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50649C61.6030309@sydex.com> On 09/27/2012 10:07 AM, Fred Cisin wrot > I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell was awesome, > but some of that was because my father never used the right oil when > he used it. When I was in college, I visited a collector (actually, he collected lots of stuff) of typewriters. He had a wonderful collection of specimens with two keyboards (upper and lower-case), typewriters where you couldn't see what you were typing (the platen faced downwards) and lots of variations. Those would probably be worth real money today. He also put out the local weekly advertising circular using an old Linotype hot-type machine, complete with gas-fired burner for the metal pot. I got to play with it some--operating one of those is not like typing at all. For one thing, the keys are in the wrong order... I guess the moral is "buy a farm, live to a ripe old age, never move house and collect like crazy" . --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:35:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:35:18 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby > carrots. > > C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby > carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. > Duh. Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though, you need a proper press. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 13:35:30 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:35:30 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: > There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for such > a small task without some other background motive. Why assume that the motive is somehow evil? Maybe the guy wants to run a Minecraft server off it (they need gobs of CPU and RAM). Or, dare I say...business growth? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 13:38:07 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:38:07 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? Generally not much, unless you find the right guy on the right day and have a recently tuned up machine. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 13:41:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:41:57 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927100917.Q70033@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> <1348761496.8178.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100917.Q70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50649DF5.4060901@sydex.com> On 09/27/2012 10:13 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Apple pie is better with them peeled. > I use a Victorinox/Forstner? knife. I have an apple lathe that is about a > century old, but it's slower than a fast knife. I make my apple pies with zucchini and Calvados. Better texture. Most store-bought apples don't have any flavor anyway. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:51:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:51:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 01:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Well, XKL's TOAD-1 is "an FPGA emulation", strictly speaking. It's >> much more "grown up", though, than somebody spending a year working on >> the VHDL or Verilog, then copping out and squirting it into a friggin' >> eval board but never designing any hardware. ;) > > Not, strictly speaking, true. The FPGAs + AMD 29xx sequencer in the XKL-1 > CPU implement a microcode engine, and the extended PDP-10 architecture is > then implemented in microcode just as in the KL-10 and KS-10 processors. > > The later XKL-2 processor, implemented in a single FPGA, is much closer > to what Ethan means, I would think, although still microcoded. The ucode > is part of the overall loadup of the FPGA from ROM at power-up. > > Perhaps Ethan has in mind something more like what Neil Franklin attempted > a decade ago, or "dgcx" more recently. That's a very blurry distinction, and is a path directly into quicksand on this list. ;) Where DOES one draw the line between hardware and firmware? What I'd like to know about the XKL designs is: Who owns the design files, and how can I get my hands on them? B-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:54:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:54:00 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5064A0C8.9010407@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 27 September 2012 09:09, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. >> Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? >> > > I think I've just had 'a moment' :) So that's what they're calling it now. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 13:55:02 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:55:02 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09AA1B89-3FD9-4ED1-BABD-823EE6123620@gmail.com> On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >> Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? > > Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions. Online guys can "ask" whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't bother with them at local auctions because of the bulk. Hm, wish I lived where you do (or knew what auctions to look into... presumably at least some of the four major universities in Philly have excess typewriters they're selling). I'd love a mid-'50s portable for practice, but the Selectrics are very nice for day-to- day typing. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 13:59:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:59:36 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50641744.6060701@update.uu.se> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <50634E86.3090100@update.uu.se> <215AD48E-162A-41F4-881F-77FA70CBC30C@me.com> <50641744.6060701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5064A218.30404@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 05:07 AM, Pontus wrote: >> Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they >> know about and understand, then they *really* get it. > > That is also true. I have a alpha rack which used to be part of a > Top-500 computer. Not just the model, but the actual computer. > Supercomputers is something that people "understand". Not here they don't. The typical reaction here is "Oh, those big computers are the OLD ones, don't you know that? We have laptops now! Nobody uses those big computers anymore." Showing them pictures of a Blue Gene machine usually results in remarks like "Wow, that one is HUGE, it must be REALLY old! I bet my iPad is faster!" (usually followed by: "Durrrr...what game is on tonight?") Like I said...I find it beneficial to simply avoid associating with such people. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Sep 27 14:05:22 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:05:22 +0200 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) Message-ID: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> I bought it, hoping there would be 1 or 2 RD54's inside the system. This was not to be.... So available, in Zurich, Switzerland : uVAX II in a BA123 enclosure, complete, ( KA650=B 8 MB), with RF215 ( 400MB DSSI disk ) and TK70 Boots into VMS. I would prefer to see my 50 CHF back, but am open to discussion. Jos From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:14:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:14:00 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348768431.52556.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927093604.O70033@shell.lmi.net> <1348768431.52556.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > > >>> About a year ago, I worked on an estate of a man that made transistors >>> in his basement - but then he was a Bell Labs semiconductor physicist. >>> Oh, and he was doing this 25-some years ago... > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> C: He was? I thought they were doing *that* 60+ years ago. > > Even earlier (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925) > > C: I don't know. Canadians seem to bat 1,000 when it comes to innovation. I think I'm becoming jealous here. > > I'm probably not the first one on the list to be informed of this. Why all the hubbub over Shockley then??? Because Shockley (and his massive employer) commercialized it and made the transistor an everyday thing because they were the phone company. Money buys you a lot of history; ask Andrew Carnegie. - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Sep 27 14:14:56 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:14:56 +0100 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> Message-ID: <024601cd9ce4$6352cde0$29f869a0$@ntlworld.com> An amazing photograph! Are there enough people close enough to each other for them to get together and preserve it as a whole? It would seem a shame to split it up, and it really should be on show. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas > Sent: 27 September 2012 07:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) > > > It depends on what they collect. I know many of them, there are lots and > lots. And I'm the ONLY one who had dec gear in the past, and no dec gear in > the present. > > I believe Jay was contacted by more than 2 collectors (me and the curator > of the "museu do Computador")...But not THAT many with space and > resources to have a two-rack computer at home. > > Of course, these are only sugestions. I have no right to decide the future > of this darn nice computer. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 3:23 AM > Subject: Re: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) > > > >> In my humble opinion, it must be parted in 5 2-rack kits, and > >> distribuited among brazilian USERS. This is something VERY VERY VERY > RARE > >> in > >> Brazil, there is no why to keep a system this size locked behind a glass > >> wall. > >> > >> And remembering, there is NO computer museum in Brazil which is > >> sufficiently backed by our computer companies. There is the "museu do > >> computador" but mostly no financial contribuitions, please correct me if > >> I'm > >> wrong. > > > > Curious: how many computer collectors do you think are in Brazil? Or > > South America in general? > > > > -- > > Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 27 14:27:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506492EC.7040902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506492EC.7040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, ben wrote: > On 9/27/2012 10:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill >> http://www.linuxcnc.org/ >> >> Dave Caroline >> > With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody doing metal > toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking > the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one. If I had a good metal chewing CNC machine, I'd be up for it. Just think of the cool paddles in anodized aluminum. I've got the design & toolpath software to do the job, so someone just needs to buy me a Tormach so I can get started. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:44:26 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:44:26 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Dave Caroline > > >> C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me! > > the console had the stepper drivers in!, > > C: actually the steppers were slapped on to the mill itself. I still have them, but they're trash. > > look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems > > I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill > http://www.linuxcnc.org/ > > C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger... > > A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby? Starturn is about the same size as yours, a small education sized machine, the big lathes are in the garage For hobby and I use the machines for odd paying jobs, replacement parts for old clocks etc. Dave Caroline From rickb at bensene.com Thu Sep 27 14:47:03 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:47:03 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > > Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays > > nixie tubes I should ask?). > And Dave McGuire responded: > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not > "GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with > green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent. > Nixie tubes are also not segmented. They have fully-formed digits stacked one atop the other. Nixie tube displays have "depth" to the digits. There are displays with a similar color to Nixie (orange), but use segments to render the digits. These are either individual tube-type gas-discharge displays (which are very frequently misidentified as Nixie tubes, because they look like a "tube"), or planar-style displays like the Burroughs Panaplex. These displays are most definitely not Nixie. There is a pretty rare type of Nixie-like called a Pandicon that is one tube with multiple digits worth of fully-formed digits inside it. Technically, it's not a Nixie tube, but visually, the display it generates looks just like individual Nixie tubes (unless you look closely through the filter). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 14:53:15 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:53:15 +0100 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: <20120927174130.M34486@kw.igs.net> References: <20120927174130.M34486@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:44 PM, wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:24:52 +0100, Dave Caroline wrote >> > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG >> >> I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key >> set from something >> obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of keys? > > Second item here: http://ferretronix.com/march/mystery/ I think I started with a complete one too now I see that picture I wonder if there is any more of it left in the loft? > > -- > Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS > Thanks for identifying it Dave Caroline From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Sep 27 14:54:12 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>>> Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. >>>>> They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he >>>>> spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>>> Do they plan on using that system for [other things]? >>> My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...[...] >> Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's no way that >> system could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for >> bitcoin mining, [...] > There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large > for such a small task without some other background motive. I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want a webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" and find a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of server-side computation (which, to be fair, is what a lot of people think of "a webserver" as doing). Or they ask a friend who doesn't know the load in question and answers hurriedly. Or, with slightly more competence, they find a wide spectrum of answers and figure they don't know what's actually needed and err on the side of extra power. > A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of > ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static > content...while running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache). > I'm not sure I'd try it today with a 486 based system due to latency > and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards), Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods. I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason _I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't, especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what fits in your co-lo space. Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page be served with sub-second delay or some such silliness. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Sep 27 15:01:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....) I've never seen one, though. While that doesn't prove much, I've never even heard of one, either, so they can't be all that common. > Green displays are either incandescents with green filters, or more > likely vacuum-fluorescent. Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope). Mouse From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:04:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120927130057.V75413@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated > circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor > physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough > funding for that. THAT is a shame. Howzbout: since I don't think that any of us have deep pockets, perhaps if each of us would make bequests in our wills? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:10:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348768431.52556.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> <1348760504.81811.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927093604.O70033@shell.lmi.net> <1348768431.52556.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120927130551.S75413@shell.lmi.net> > > Even earlier? (Lilienfeld FET in Canada 1925) On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I'm probably not the first one on the list to be informed of > this. Why all the hubbub over Shockley then??? different kinds of transistors. Some are easier to invent than others. > > Shockley's 1948 Bell Labs stuff wasn't really a basement. > C: Sorry. I meant crawl space. I didn't know that Bell Labs had any crawl spaces! Later in life, he did some social writing that impklies that there might have been inadequate ventilation! > > Is that where Radio Shack was buying theirs? > C: From him? Directly? Is he up to date on his tax payments? Radio Shack ones DON'T come from somebody's basement? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:20:08 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > First, there are LOTS AND LOTS of them out there. There are many people > who are interested in them...but they already have some. Keep in mind that, > until the past 20-30 years, the number of typewriters in the world absolutely > DWARFED the number of computers in the world. > > Second, they're heavy and expensive to ship. > > Third, what you're talking about is half a century newer than anything most > of these people are interested in. > What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but I've never seen one in the wild... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 15:21:25 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:21:25 +0100 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: References: <20120927174130.M34486@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:44 PM, wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:24:52 +0100, Dave Caroline wrote >>> >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG >>> >>> I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key >>> set from something >>> obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of keys? >> >> Second item here: http://ferretronix.com/march/mystery/ > > I think I started with a complete one too now I see that picture > I wonder if there is any more of it left in the loft? Yes the empty case is still here! Some information from the identity plate :- Equip model No 74100903-007 Serial No KA23993 I suppose all it is useful for now is a blinkenlights machine:) Dave Caroline From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 27 15:30:36 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:30:36 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> <50649C61.6030309@sydex.com> Message-ID: <80928979607D4B068D3CDEAD2797EC86@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:35 PM Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? > I guess the moral is "buy a farm, live to a ripe old age, never move house > and collect like crazy" . > > --Chuck > Its funny what you said above moving house, quite a few cool things end up getting tossed to other collectors when people have to move. Also there are plenty of hobbies that used to be hot that have pretty much died out (baseball cards, stamp collecting, marbles, etc) so collecting like crazy will not make you rich. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:35:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <50645CC6.8000002@gmail.com> <1348761321.73807.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100101.T70033@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120927132948.J76360@shell.lmi.net> > > I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell was awesome, but > > some of that was because my father never used the right oil when he used > > it. On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote: > Well whale oil wasn't available? He wouldn't even pay the cost of free-range! Alas, he thought that "3 in 1" oil was suitable for EVERYTHING. He knew that Phillips screwdrivers were differnet from "regular ones", but never grasped that there were different sizes of both, and considered a dime to be a suitable substitute. But, he did somehow manage to keep the close to a dozen typewriters in the house working! After he died, my mother only kept three of them. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 27 15:38:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:38:04 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064B92C.8000301@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy > proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, > though, you need a proper press. For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder, and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl in the tail. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:28:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:28:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50634145.27933.59C58C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 26, 12 10:54:13 am Message-ID: > > On 26 Sep 2012 at 10:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote: > > > "Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife > > Honeywell Kitchen Computer? > > I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few > computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics I think i would draw the distinction between 'computer' and 'microcontrolelr' in that thew former is user-programmable. Now who is goign to make the first kitchen appliance that runs a C compiler :-) > to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, > even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays). I've thought it In my case there are plenty of comptuers i nthe ktichen, but they're things you'd recognise as comptuers -- HP9830, S100 systems, a PERQ, etc. As for the appliances : The washing machine and dryer are not in the kitchen (but alas each contains a microcontroller) The dishwahser is one of the last models to have a cam-and-switch timer The oven clcok probably has a microcontroller in it, but one of the first things I did to said oven was take the top cover off and work out how to bypass the swithcing cotnacts fo the clock so the oven could be used if the timer failed. It was trivial, the microcontroller operates a relay in sereis wit hthe mains to the rest of the oven. The thermostat is an oil-filled bulb/capuilary/bellows operating a mechncial swtich. The hob ('cooktop'?) has no electronics at all And that's about it. I much prefer things I cna understand, repair and even 'bodge over' to keep them working in an 'emergnecy'. One year the oven thermostat (not on this oven) failed a few days before Newtonsday. We managed to cook the meal using a home-made thermostat consisting of (and this actually invloves a classic computer) : HP71B computer HP3421 data logger (I guess an HP9114 disk drive, but that wasn't essential) A thermocouple (I had to order this specially, and I was darn pleased it arrived in time!). IIRC the HP3421 has built-in conversiosn for a Type T, not the more common Type K.. That was linked ot oen of the analogue inptuws on the 3421, of course A little bit of electronics (a transistor driver stage) conencted to one of the digital outptus of the 3421. A large relay driven by that to swithc hte oven elements. Yes it worked. It was probably a better control system than the replacement themostat I fitted a couple of weeks later... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:32:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:32:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 26, 12 03:15:38 pm Message-ID: > But I hear you - I get asked all the time, "but what's it _good_ for?" > I compare it to building ships in bottles - not a productive > activity, but an entertaining one. That explanation seems to deflect > most of the odd looks. Most. I sometimes descrbie troubelshooting classic computers as being similar t o solving corssword puzzles/sudoku/etc. It is a good way of keeping your brain active. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:34:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:34:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <5063568D.3030504@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 26, 12 03:25:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 09/26/2012 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Semiconductor devices : Impossible to make at home (I would _love_ to be > > proved wrong :-)). > > That's closer than you might think. More than one person has made RIght. From this and other replies I see it's a lot more possible than I thought. Until then I'd only seen referecnes to relatively poor semiconductor drvices made at home (point contact diodes, copper oxide transsitors). As I have said in the past : 'Never underestimate waht a hobbyist can do'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:39:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:39:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 26, 12 12:27:34 pm Message-ID: > > I have to juryrig a video cable for an Amiga 600. 23 pin male on the back. = > What I happen to have in my stash is a, IIRC, Amiga 1000 floppy cable, clip= > ped at one end, mail 23 pin at the other. Where do I find a female 23 pin t= > hingee to drop into that hood? Anyone got one? Stateside. =0A= Last time I looked, Cricklewood Electronics still had them. That's not Stateside, and they were about 10 times the price of the other D connctors... I hate to suggest this, but if all else fails, can you pick up an A520 (I think that's the one) video ecoder/modulator on E-bay and raid the conenctor from it? > =A0Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and dro= Most D sockets are made by having the plastic insualtor in 2 parts. The contacts are fitted between the pars, the metal shell is in spartsm it's fitted round the isulator, and then rivetted together at the moutning screw holee. If you cut one down, it is liekly to all fall apart. The all-pastci IDC type are a possibiltiy. Just cut away the bit of the insulator that goes into the mating conenctor, leave the body of the conenctor intact. It won't look too good, but I think it can work. If you don't want to use IDC cable. you can carefully solder to the IDC forks. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:46:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:46:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209261931.PAA10063@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 26, 12 03:31:51 pm Message-ID: > > have you looked at the control electronics to your microwave oven? > > Yes. > > They fried in a lightning storm. Everything was fine for a while; > then, after a lightning storm, it would beep intermittently. It > finally occurred to me that if it can beep when it's not supposed to, > it can turn on the microwaves when it's not supposed to. Every microwave oven I've seen over here has a quite complex interlock on the door that it independant of the microcontroller syustem. No matter what the latter does, the magnetron cannot be powered up. Typically there are 3 microswitches. 2 are oepn when the door is open (w'll call those NO), the other is closed (call that NC). The circuit is something like : Live side ov mains - Control relay - NO switch --+-- NO switch -- Magnetron | Trasnformer NC switch | 0.25Ohm Resistor | Neutran side of mains----------------------------+---------------- The idea is thast for the magnetron topower up, both NO sitichs must be closed. If either is open, there are no microwaves. If both siwches fail closed and the door is open, then the NC switch puts a short across the mains and blows the fuse. > > (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even refrigerators seem > > to have them nowadays). > > They do. That's a reason I avoid "modern" white goods. [In case that Ditto, where I can. I can repair mechcnail timers, I have rather more of aproblem repairing custoim microcontrollers. (as a data point, our _old_ washing machine ran for 40 years o nthe roignal timer, it needed one cotnact repair in that time. Our new sashing machine blows the custom microcontrolelr in the mtoro control circuit about every 6 months...) > idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is North American - or perhaps > Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers, > refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they > are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very > relevant.] The same term is used over here, Along with 'brown goods' to mean TVs, radios, etc (which traditioanlyl came in brown wooden cabinets, I guess). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:48:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:48:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 26, 12 12:40:04 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain > > 'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should > > have a lathe"' :-) > > Because that "rotisserie" doesn't have an adequate spindle speed! Anmd the ebarings are nowhere near accurate neough :-) Acutally, whatevr was said in Datafile, I have never made this comment. I do sometimes say that a part can be made i na good home workshop, and that means one containing a small lathe. I also sometimes talk about doing repairs on 'the kitchen table'. It doesn't imply that's where the lthe should be... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:52:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:52:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 26, 12 01:48:39 pm Message-ID: > > Chris Tofu wrote: > > C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980. > > Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers. Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power control' which was an electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 14:55:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:55:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Sep 26, 12 04:03:54 pm Message-ID: > I have an Otis King in my collection. It's one of my favourites. Very I acutally have 2 of them. My father geve me his, which he had as a research student and stoipped using only when he got an electronic calcualtor. The scond one I found i na charity shop (thrift store) for \pounds 5.00. Oddly, thrre was one in the antique shop across the road for aobut 40 tiems that price... > accurate, and IMO quite lovely. I love pointing out that if you > straightened out the scales, they would be as tall as I am. I also have the Stnaley-Fuller :-). That has even longer scales, but it doens't fit in a pocket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:01:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:01:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209262044.QAA10442@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 26, 12 04:44:05 pm Message-ID: > > > He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' > > > To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' > > You, Sir, are awesome. Why? Actually, i think this sums up my views on the subject of this thread. The requriements of a hobby are (a) that that the people taking part enjpy it (obviously) and (b) It has no adverse effects on otehrs. Now if 2 groups of people _want_ to chase a sphere or prolate spheroid around an area of geass, that's they're business. I am not goinmg to try to stop them. Just don't ecpect me to want to take part or watch. All I ask is that I can get on with fixing my classic comptuers. It doesn;'t affect them in any way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:29:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:29:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 27, 12 08:31:46 am Message-ID: > C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie= > tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green di= No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have to contain I wonder?) Most green displays are vacuum fluorescent (VF) units. The design is electrically a triode valve wit ha fluorexcent anode. Note that soem VF displays had other coloured segments or annucaitors too -- A red 'error' annuciator, for example. Green LED displays exist, but are not common. Even less common are 7 segment LED displays with a red and a green LED for each segmetn allowing mutlicolour operation. They exist though. I've nver seen an RGB 7 segment LED display. LCDs can, I guess be backlit in any colour :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:12:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:12:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120926233656.c53d3b0b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Sep 26, 12 11:36:56 pm Message-ID: > Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-) And you can get the kitchen dark enough to use it? Mine (seriosuly) is in an outbuilding on the back of the house. No windows, so it's easy to keep dark. Lovely bit of engineering ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:07:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:07:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Beware of eBay id In-Reply-To: <50636A23.6070705@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Sep 26, 12 01:48:35 pm Message-ID: > > A buddy of mine gave me a key puller years ago, and repaired keyboards. > YOu don't put a knife or screwdriver under them and pry. The U-shaped metal IC extractor tool -- I think mine came with an Apple ][ RAM kit -- with the times reshaped and bent inwards ia good keycap puller. > > No damage at all when done correctly. I pulled all the keys off my most > used keyboards and washed, dried and reinstalled them. Inded. I pull the keycaps off all my classic computers and wash them when I get the machine. They nearly always need it. Thing is knowing how hard to pull. Most will jsut pull offo, bht there are soem that have locking hooks that clip into the keyboard. The common ones are the LK201 (whcih you get off nby twising each keycap as you pull it) and the HP9100 (you have to remvoe the bezel and flip each hook with a screwdriver). Be careful with space bars. There's often a mecahnsim to keep them level. In some cases you have to dismantle this first. In others, (IBM 5150 keyyboard), the easiest way to replace the space bar is to dismantle most of the keyboard. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 15:47:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:47:19 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064BB57.2010202@sydex.com> On 09/27/2012 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/27/2012 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays >> nixie tubes I should ask?). > > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not > "GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with > green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent. I was a bit more cautious in my response, knowing full well that there are phosphor-modified neon lamps in common use. So, indeed there are neon Nixie-type gizmos in existence in varying colors. http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=1073 Scroll down to the Melz ITS1A photo. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:53:16 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby >> carrots. >> >> C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby >> carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. >> Duh. > > Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy proposition. > I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though, you need a proper > press. > A++++! Would buy again! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 27 15:59:27 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 13:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <5064A0C8.9010407@neurotica.com> References: <5064A0C8.9010407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/27/2012 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 27 September 2012 09:09, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. >>> Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? >>> >> >> I think I've just had 'a moment' :) > > So that's what they're calling it now. ;) > Depends.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 16:01:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649DF5.4060901@sydex.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <50645DF0.6070409@gmail.com> <1348761496.8178.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120927100917.Q70033@shell.lmi.net> <50649DF5.4060901@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120927135718.U76360@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I make my apple pies with zucchini and Calvados. Better texture. Most > store-bought apples don't have any flavor anyway. I had forgotten that stores sell apples, plums, and lemons. They grow on trees. My dog would eat all of the plums on the ground, and then deposit pre-fertilized pits. I didn't know that he could even get to the area behind the shed until I had to start cutting down excess trees. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 27 16:02:19 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:02:19 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064BEDB.7070006@jwsss.com> On 9/27/2012 11:51 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > That's a very blurry distinction, and is a path directly into > quicksand on this list. ;) Where DOES one draw the line between > hardware and firmware? I talked with a friend who was a designer for Astrodata in the mid 60's. There was a fellow there who would design hardware with the intent of programming the sequencing and so forth later. That was frowned upon at the time and later banned. He left to work at one of the early computer system companies here in Orange County, Varian or such, don't recall. The distinction I would place is whether the hardware can be made to behave differently with either mechanical programming at assembly time, as this fellow did, or with changes to a load of code that is easily alterable in the factory or field. I would argue that even if there are sequencers such as Xilinx parts that have to be loaded at power on time, if they are loaded by parts not easily programmable in the field, then hardware discipline applies, more than software / firmware. Such things as the vhdl and such still may be easily alterable, but are much closer to this sort of firmware than it is to any firmware type function, where the firmware can be loaded and altered to run differently to suit a particular need of a machine. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 16:36:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:36:36 -0400 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012, at 3:05 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > So available, in Zurich, Switzerland : > > uVAX II in a BA123 enclosure, complete, ( KA650=B 8 MB), with RF215 ( 400MB DSSI disk ) and TK70 > Boots into VMS. > > > I would prefer to see my 50 CHF back, but am open to discussion. Heck, I'd pay 50 CHF (somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 USD, I think) just for a BA123. Alas, I'm nowhere near Switzerland and would have to pay ten times that (or more) to ship it. - Dave From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 16:45:22 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:45:22 -0500 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com> <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sep 27, 2012 2:39 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not "GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent. This is a major problem on ebay. Sellers have learned that Nixies get the dollars, so anything remotely old looking is now a Nixie. Spams up my searches, it does! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 16:45:34 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:45:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/27/2012 01:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> >>> Well, XKL's TOAD-1 is "an FPGA emulation", strictly speaking... >> >> Not, strictly speaking, true. The FPGAs + AMD 29xx sequencer in the XKL-1 >> CPU implement a microcode engine, and the extended PDP-10 architecture is >> then implemented in microcode just as in the KL-10 and KS-10 processors. Interesting to know. There's a lot I could learn about each and every implementation. >> The later XKL-2 processor, implemented in a single FPGA, is much closer >> to what Ethan means, I would think, although still microcoded. Yes. That would count, but I doubt I'll ever land any XKL hardware. >> Perhaps Ethan has in mind something more like what Neil Franklin attempted >> a decade ago, or "dgcx" more recently. That is more what I was thinking of - a slab of silicon that (above the microcode level) runs the PDP-10 instruction set native, and allows for some modern or semi-modern disks to be attached (I really don't care if it's SCSI or PATA or SATA or SAS or FC-AL or whatever - just so I can mount something at least as large an RP06 or RP07) _and_ Ethernet (that acts at the register level like "real" hardware - NI-10? NI-20? Is that the right nomenclature?) > That's a very blurry distinction, and is a path directly into quicksand on > this list. ;) Where DOES one draw the line between hardware and firmware? Several PDP-11s were microcoded. VAXen were routinely microcoded. I don't plan to implement a KA-10 in ECL, so as long as I turn it on and it doesn't have to boot another OS on some Intel-compatible processor then fire off an app written in C to implement the PDP-10 instruction set (something I'm already doing just fine with klh10), it's gotta be closer than what I have now. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 16:52:11 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:52:11 -0600 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064CA8B.60603@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/27/2012 12:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated > circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor > physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough > funding for that. > It is normally new ideas, not newer devices that break new ground. > -Dave > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 27 17:12:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:12:50 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064CF62.20000@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > What I'd like to know about the XKL designs is: Who owns the design > files, Is there any reason to believe that they don't belong to XKL? > and how can I get my hands on them? B-) Get a job working at XKL? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 27 17:14:44 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:14:44 -0600 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348768164.19242.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <20120926174052.F50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760385.17409.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348768164.19242.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5064CFD4.9090105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/27/2012 11:49 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > The upcoming Make has a writeup of the mutlimachine-lathe by Pat > Delany if anyone's interested (I hope I got the specifics right). > Major material - concrete. Is this the one? > https://www.engineeringforchange.org/news/2011/11/25/finished_a_construction_manual_for_an_open_source_low_cost_screw_cutting_lathe.html I like Gingery's books. I can not find a link now, but a intersesting site for beginers. http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/index.html Ben. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 17:16:21 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:16:21 +0000 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <87882755-1348784184-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-960326680-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Eh while overkill it would make a nice vm host. Otherwise I suppose it could be either not recommended but doing all the server tasks for their infrastructure (db server, web server, ftp, dhcp. Dns. Email, whatever ad/ldap). But still overkill. Vm wise they could host many customers that way. Now if they *really* want to get the darwin award they could get that, then do a raid 0 :-) -----Original Message----- From: Mouse Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:54:12 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? >>>>> Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. >>>>> They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he >>>>> spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>>> Do they plan on using that system for [other things]? >>> My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...[...] >> Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's no way that >> system could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for >> bitcoin mining, [...] > There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large > for such a small task without some other background motive. I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want a webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" and find a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of server-side computation (which, to be fair, is what a lot of people think of "a webserver" as doing). Or they ask a friend who doesn't know the load in question and answers hurriedly. Or, with slightly more competence, they find a wide spectrum of answers and figure they don't know what's actually needed and err on the side of extra power. > A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of > ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static > content...while running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache). > I'm not sure I'd try it today with a 486 based system due to latency > and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards), Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods. I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason _I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't, especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what fits in your co-lo space. Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page be served with sub-second delay or some such silliness. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 17:26:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:26:09 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 04:01 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...] (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). >> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. > > Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". > > But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar > device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as > to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some > circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....) Except that that's not at all how VFDs work. I think "Nixie" and "nixie" are similar to "Kleenex" and "kleenex", but maybe not quite THAT similar. These other devices have proper names, and their differences are more than superficial. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 17:27:08 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:27:08 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5064D2BC.5010500@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 04:20 PM, geneb wrote: > What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM > Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but > I've never seen one in the wild... Same here. I remember them from ads in BYTE. I'd go Selectric-hunting in a very serious way if I had one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 17:40:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120927153126.C77812@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, geneb wrote: > What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM > Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but > I've never seen one in the wild... I used to have two top-of-keyboard ones! (I think that Eric got both.) IIRC: Rochester Dynatyper Had a doeble sided interface card - one side was Apple][ slot, the other was 40pin card edge for TRS80 expansion bus. KGS-80 ribbon cable with 34 pin female card edge connector for TRS80 printer port; I crimped a blue-ribbon ("Centronics") connector on it. I used it twice: 1) keyboard on TRS80-III wouldn't work, but individual keys started to work after "exercise". So, I put the actuator box on it and dumped a lot of text. 2) transferring a manuscript (about Honda cars) into a Merganthaler typesetting machine that did not have any external ports. In addition to the two that I had, there were a few more. For Selectric, the "Escon" that attached to the underside of the selectric. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 17:41:15 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:41:15 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2457B0E0D26C46B4982B94FA16C159E6@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf > Sent: 27 September 2012 18:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection? > > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Jason McBrien wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu > > wrote: > > > >> C: So why little or no interest in an IBM? > > > > Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for? > > Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions. > Online guys can > "ask" whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't > bother with them > at local auctions because of the bulk. > Whilst I havn't tried really hard I can't move my Selectric Electronic Composer.... From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 27 18:00:06 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:00:06 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064B92C.8000301@brouhaha.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> <5064B92C.8000301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5064DA76.2020705@vaxen.net> On 9/27/12 3:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy >> proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though, >> you need a proper press. > > For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder, > and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or > different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig > slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl > in the tail. The hog slaughterhouses back home record the pigs' squeal to be used for scaring the babies into the chute. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Sep 27 18:10:14 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 18:10:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: >>>>>> Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They >>>>>> are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? >>>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... > >> There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for >> such a small task without some other background motive. > > I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really > understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want a > webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" and find > a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of server-side computation > (which, to be fair, is what a lot of people think of "a webserver" as > doing). Or they ask a friend who doesn't know the load in question and > answers hurriedly. Or, with slightly more competence, they find a wide > spectrum of answers and figure they don't know what's actually needed > and err on the side of extra power. It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could use it for their own purposes. Machines that large are not exactly commodity items, even today. >> A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of >> ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while >> running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache). I'm not sure I'd try >> it today with a 486 based system due to latency and the bandwidth >> limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards), > > Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's > serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd > expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than > one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could > actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods. > I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason > _I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core > Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't, > especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what > fits in your co-lo space. Your average static image file tends to be over 100KB now, which is going to be difficult for an i486 based machine to keep up with. A 150MHz P5 with a basic 10/100 PCI NIC would probably handle it, but I wouldn't give the task to anything slower, and as cheap as a 200MHz P54CS is, there wouldn't be any point in using the slower processor. I ran a number of 486-based web servers into the late '90s, and they were just barely able to keep up with average sized files back then. Finding a 1U sized i486 machine with an ISA butterfly backplane chassis would actually be no problem at all. These are still very common in embedded applications where existing equipment relies on the ISA bus. > Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page be > served with sub-second delay or some such silliness. Even a one second delay while serving static content -is- a problem. Each such delay adds to the total page load time, and it adds up in a hurry. A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory (1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't running BIND). As much as I actually like the i486 arch (power efficiency, among other things), a 486 based system will simply not have enough physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it would craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to disc while serving up pages via Apache. Even if you could physically stuff 64MB of memory into a i486 based system, that extra memory isn't going to be cached (no on-die cache with a 486) so it is going to be incredibly slow. Even most Socket 5 and Socket 7 based machines could only support 128MB (chipset limitations), even if the processor itself could handle more. I still work with embedded systems that use these very CPUs, so I'm acutely aware of their limitations. In fact, those MicroVAX diagnostic tape images I linked to were being served by a P200 with 128MB of ram (its chipset can handle 512MB if I get around to hunting down a compatible COAST module for the system). From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 27 18:22:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:22:37 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5064DFBD.7040302@sydex.com> On 09/27/2012 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I think i would draw the distinction between 'computer' and > 'microcontrolelr' in that thew former is user-programmable. Now who is > goign to make the first kitchen appliance that runs a C compiler :-) Well now, that depends upon your description of "programmable". I can program my microwave oven to cook for X minutes at power level 3, then cook for Y minutes at power level 2, then keep things warm for as long as I care. If I recall correctly, the section in the owner's manual even calls that "programming" Here's a web page on programming a Panasonic commercial microwave, complete with references to the "PROG" button. http://www.panasonic.com/business/commercial-food-services/technical-support/program-your-product.asp LG offers an Internet refrigerator that will not only tell you about what's inside, but allow you to surf the web while making ice cubes. Samsung offers a WiFi enabled fridge that allows one to check Google calendars, get the latest weather, leave messages, plan menus and monitor needs for recipes... If those aren't "kitchen computers", I don't know what is. One curious side effect is the vanishing of traditional controls. My sister-in-law is legally blind and lives in a home with an all-electric kitchen. She remarks that it's increasingly difficult to find a kitchen stove with real knob controls--it's all touch surfaces with digital visual readout. --Chuck From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Sep 27 18:27:54 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:27:54 +1000 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 28/09/2012, at 6:20 AM, geneb wrote: > What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but I've never seen one in the wild... I had one of these, but sadly didn't get a suitable typewriter to try it out before I passed it on to another collector. IIRC the PSU and interface/drivers were in one box and the solenoid unit that sat on top of the keyboard was connected via a large cable. I can't remember what sort of interface it was. Not long after getting rid of it I started seeing cheap Selectrics all over the place.. Chris From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 27 18:30:17 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:30:17 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com>, <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org > > >> [...] (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). > > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. > > Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". > > But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar > device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as > to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some > circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....) > > I've never seen one, though. While that doesn't prove much, I've never > even heard of one, either, so they can't be all that common. > > > Green displays are either incandescents with green filters, or more > > likely vacuum-fluorescent. > > Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified > as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope). > > Mouse Hi If you think the name nixie is misused, try a search on ebay for neon lights.It is easily a 1000:1 of finding anything close to neon or argon even.Dwight From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 18:33:22 2012 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:33:22 +1000 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: References: <1348687654.54729.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Sep 26, 12 12:27:34 pm Message-ID: <5064e246.8287440a.31dd.ffffc877@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Friday, 28 September 2012 5:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors > > I have to juryrig a video cable for an Amiga 600. 23 pin male on the > back. = What I happen to have in my stash is a, IIRC, Amiga 1000 > floppy cable, clip= ped at one end, mail 23 pin at the other. Where do > I find a female 23 pin t= hingee to drop into that hood? Anyone got > one? Stateside. =0A= They're still common - Jaycar carry these as stock items. (Not in the US of course, this is in Oz). The half dozen I have (picked up about 3 months ago as a 'just in case' (no idea why, in 30 years I've never needed them....)) are branded Samsung. Lance From ss at allegro.com Thu Sep 27 18:36:25 2012 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:36:25 -0700 Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E8FD508-DE93-469D-A1DE-5AC01CD7A02D@allegro.com> (A little late, but...) On Aug 23, 2012, at 2:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > For plain 'odd' the HP120 / HP125 come high up the list (those machines > have very simialr hardwre, just physically built differently). A paiur of > Z80s, one running CP/M, the other acting as a text termninal, > communicting via a parallel interface. And it uses those HP HPIB drive > untis. I liked the HP 125 (and 120) ... my favorite CP/M machines. But the 125 had two big problems: 1. it was *heavy*. In fact, carrying one from home to HP on my last day of work at HP in 1983 gave me a hernia. 2. the power switch on was located in the worst place ... on the front of the main unit, where the keyboard would turn off the computer if you pushed the keyboard away from you and toward the base. Did that twice :) Stan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 18:34:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:34:25 -0300 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors References: Message-ID: <4DBDECD9AEEB4C808CEA95D86851B43E@tababook> >> =A0Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and >> dro= Sure, I've did it for ages. http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/adaptador_rgb/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 27 18:40:19 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 00:40:19 +0100 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <5064A0C8.9010407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 27/09/2012 19:54, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 09/27/2012 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> On 27 September 2012 09:09, Paul Anderson wrote: >>> Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. >>> Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? >>> >> >> I think I've just had 'a moment' :) > > So that's what they're calling it now. ;) None of our workshop people know DEC stuff these days, it's down to me and the directors. I'm the official company bloke in charge of 'old stuff' (ES47? Old? Kinnell) and trying to explain to the youngsters how DEC got into the bloodstream and you would move mountains to save PDP11s pretty much fell on deaf ears, they're all PC types now. I showed them this pic while I was frothing at the mouth and they all said 'I bet my phone has more power than that'. This is the sole reason we need to keep going! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 18:47:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120927164612.W77812@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power control' which was an > electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro > trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very > couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated > a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint > where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control. If you used the input sine wave instead of a motor, you could simulate that with an SCR! From ss at allegro.com Thu Sep 27 18:56:25 2012 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:56:25 -0700 Subject: TRS-DOS as possible prior art for MS patent on exFAT, and Reference request In-Reply-To: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> References: <5056BBB1.10300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <925B7349-14A8-41F4-BB20-269E4D098B81@allegro.com> Re: > This application is titled "Quick filename lookup using name hash". Based on the title, it sounded like they are doing what TRS-DOS 2.0 did back in 1978, which is putting on the disk a hash table of filenames which then refer to directory entries. TRS-DOS did that so that it usually only needed to read two sectors to look up a file, the HIT (Hash Index Table) sector, and the actual directory sector containing the file's directory entry. Otherwise they might have had to read multiple directory sectors to find the file if it existed, and all of the directory sectors if it did not. There's some chance that Burroughs MCP file directory mechanism may have done something similar, back around 1972 (?). I recall MCP switching from a (now familiar to most) one-file-per-directory system, to a the-entire-directory-in-one-file system at about that time. One of the claimed advantages was the ability to find the file entry in "one or two disk reads". But, it's long enough ago that I don't recall the details. There's a chance that Jim Madden (UCSD Computer Center) or Don Gregory (ex-student at UCSD) might know. Stan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 18:58:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120927165738.K77812@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > As I have said in the past : 'Never underestimate waht a hobbyist can do'. . . . and especially don't underestimate Jeri. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 27 19:03:54 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:03:54 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net>, , <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby > > carrots. > > > > C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby > > carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. > > Duh. > > Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy > proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though, > you need a proper press. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA I was curious about babie carrots.It seems that they make sliced carrots for thing like soups and such.The smaller end was cut off and then crushed for things like babyfood.At some time someone thought of packaging them a babie carrots.You'll notice that they are getting bigger around. More demand forbabie carrots than sliced.Such is life.Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 19:07:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:07:56 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5064EA5C.6080008@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 04:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Green LED displays exist, but are not common. Even less common are 7 > segment LED displays with a red and a green LED for each segmetn allowing > mutlicolour operation. They exist though. I've nver seen an RGB 7 segment > LED display. Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 19:08:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 20:08:15 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064B92C.8000301@brouhaha.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> <5064B92C.8000301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5064EA6F.2040507@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 04:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy >> proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, >> though, you need a proper press. > > For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder, > and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or > different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig > slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl > in the tail. Nicely done. I'm saving this one. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 27 19:13:55 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:13:55 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: > From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com > > > > > C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger... > > > > A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby? > Starturn is about the same size as yours, a small education sized > machine, the big lathes are in the garage > For hobby and I use the machines for odd paying jobs, replacement > parts for old clocks etc. > > Dave Caroline > Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 20:09:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:09:33 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <5064CF62.20000@brouhaha.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB1BA2B90@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <50636DF1.6010107@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2595325@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> <5064CF62.20000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5064F8CD.4090705@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 06:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> What I'd like to know about the XKL designs is: Who owns the design >> files, > > Is there any reason to believe that they don't belong to XKL? > >> and how can I get my hands on them? B-) > > Get a job working at XKL? Oh I'm quite aware that they're still around...but they don't seem to be doing anything more interesting than big network switches with their CPU design. Kinda seems like certain models of HP calculators...it'd cost them little to have made a few more, and there's still demand...at least for a handful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 20:18:53 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:18:53 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064BB57.2010202@sydex.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <50635C17.8030703@brouhaha.com>, <1348695379.38681.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063BFC1.6603.E49283@cclist.sydex.com> <1348759906.20623.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B0F.7020201@neurotica.com> <5064BB57.2010202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3F5DBD5E-E2D7-406D-82B5-3BA922B7845D@gmail.com> On Sep 27, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was a bit more cautious in my response, knowing full well that there are phosphor-modified neon lamps in common use. > > So, indeed there are neon Nixie-type gizmos in existence in varying colors. > > http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=1073 > > Scroll down to the Melz ITS1A photo. I suppose that to me, a Nixie-type tube should be directly lit (i.e., using the neon as illumination rather than a phosphor). Nonetheless, that's a pretty neat tube, if perhaps overwrought. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 20:30:07 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:30:07 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064D2BC.5010500@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50629B1B.2080304@update.uu.se> <6EC58F5B-43AF-49F7-9BCF-36F2CA8DA2D2@me.com> <1348691037.40968.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50638965.1040501@neurotica.com> <1348759705.7798.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C11.9050706@neurotica.com> <5064D2BC.5010500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/27/2012 04:20 PM, geneb wrote: >> What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM >> Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but >> I've never seen one in the wild... > > Same here. I remember them from ads in BYTE. I'd go > Selectric-hunting in a very serious way if I had one of those. I remember them from BYTE, too. When I was a kid, we had the Selectrics (my mother was a professional typist), but the relay boards were just a bit more expensive than she wanted to spend to put a printer on my PET (maybe if she'd seen one working in a store it might have been different, but the pictures didn't help enough to sell the concept). -ethan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Sep 27 20:31:11 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209280131.VAA17523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' >>> To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' >> You, Sir, are awesome. > Why? (a) Because you haven't bought into the societal assumption (at least on this side of the pond, but what I've seen leads me to think it exists there too) that sports are fun by default; (b) Because you realize this and had no hesitation using it to turn that kid's bait; (c) Because you consider that "the only sane reply"; (d) Because you do maths for fun. (I daresay you don't consider any of those awesome. In my (admittedly rather limited) experience, those I think awesome don't see the reasons I think them awesome as justification for the opinion.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Sep 27 21:14:21 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:14:21 -0700 Subject: LOBO Systems MAX-80 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wanted one of those years ago, liked thedesign better than the trs-80 it was kind of a clone of. On 9/27/12 5:57 AM, "Garrett Meiers" wrote: > Thanks for the info. I'm going to find some disk images and attach a > drive, hopefully his weekend. I'm hoping these work, because I find them > really neat, for some reason. > > Garrett Meiers > > > > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:48 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I was curious if anyone had any information about (or experience with) >> LOBO >>> Systems MAX-80's. I have four of these, and they came with no >>> accessories, documentation, etc. >>> >>> I found an operations manual and a Technical Reference manual, but >> that's >>> about it. >>> >>> My only testing so far was to connect them to an NTSC monitor, and all I >>> get is some static-like display. Reading the operation manuals, it says >>> something to the extent that it should display static if there are no >> disk >>> drives attached. But another part of the manual says it should show >> some >>> text on power-on. >>> >> >> It's not saying that you will get something on the screen without disk >> drives attached, it's saying that AND valid boot media..Do you have boot >> disks? Otherwise you're not going to get very far. On my web site I have >> the scan of the page that you need to know where to attach the drive, but >> it's documented in the manual. There are boot media images online you can >> build using the ImageDisk. >> >> Bill >> >> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 27 21:20:50 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:20:50 -0500 Subject: microdata beginnings Message-ID: <6D1EF50C-8DDF-4248-A353-AA8E5F935397@classiccmp.org> Started prepping the Microdata for restoration tonight. The cpu, mag tape, and front panel are in very good condition. The power supply - not so much. It was apparently a long term home for mice. I don't see any chewed wiring - suprising - but their leavings induced a lot of corrosion and rust. I'm gonna bet those batteries aren't holding a charge. No power applied yet, going to go through the power supply with a fine tooth comb first. I thought the box was an M1600 for some reason, but it appears to be an R4510. Many years ago I did own two M1600's, and this box seems extremely similar, but the front panel is more reminiscent of the Reality Royale rather than the M1600. I haven't located all the stuff that came in the haul, but enough to get started in any case. The power supply is Microdata A20014662-002. Dare I ask.... any schematics? CPU info: Backplane - 19 Connector A20001279 rev a Slot 1 - 8k rom maintenance interface A20001281-001 rev H Slot 2 - control A20001273 rev E Slot 3 - data A20001043 rev K Slot 4 - empty Slot 5 - memory array board CS20002234 rev D Slot 6 & 7 empty Slot 8 - memory control A20002241 rev F Slot 9 - Formatted MTU control A20001274 rev G Slot 10 - Microcomputer Systems Corp CS20002991 rev B (disk) Slot 11 - 8way A20002615 rev J Slot 12 - GPBIO A20002510 Slot 13 - 19 empty It's been over 30 years since I had my hands inside the guts of a Microdata Reality. Brings back lots of memories. I've got the power supply pulled out and on a bench, all the cabinet panels removed, and cpu cables marked & removed. Haven't dug the Reflex I drive out of storage yet. There's also a box of serial number proms :) Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/microdata Game on :) J From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 21:30:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:30:10 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 07:40 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>>> Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. >>>> Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? >>>> >>> >>> I think I've just had 'a moment' :) >> >> So that's what they're calling it now. ;) > > None of our workshop people know DEC stuff these days, it's down to me and > the directors. I'm the official company bloke in charge of 'old stuff' > (ES47? Old? Kinnell) and trying to explain to the youngsters how DEC got > into the bloodstream and you would move mountains to save PDP11s pretty much > fell on deaf ears, they're all PC types now. Whores, the lot of 'em. Bet they eat McDonald's. ;) > I showed them this pic while I was frothing at the mouth and they all said > 'I bet my phone has more power than that'. This is the sole reason we need > to keep going! Absolutely. When computing had STYLE. (GANGNAM STYLE!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 27 21:45:49 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Sep 27, 12 06:10:14 pm" Message-ID: <201209280245.q8S2jnKF16384220@floodgap.com> > Your average static image file tends to be over 100KB now, which is going > to be difficult for an i486 based machine to keep up with. A 150MHz P5 > with a basic 10/100 PCI NIC would probably handle it, but I wouldn't give > the task to anything slower, and as cheap as a 200MHz P54CS is, there > wouldn't be any point in using the slower processor. I ran a number of > 486-based web servers into the late '90s, and they were just barely able > to keep up with average sized files back then. Up until earlier this year my main webserver was an Apple Network Server with a 200MHz 604e. Now, this is certainly got more oomph than the 486, and the ANS did very well in AIX, but it did the job since 1998. Now that I have the POWER6, it doesn't really make much sense to keep the ANS in daily operation, and it was getting flaky to boot. It'll be much happier as a museum piece running CDE for demonstration purposes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I am not for myself, who will be for me? -- Pirkei Avot ----------------- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Sep 27 21:54:23 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> References: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209280254.WAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. >> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], I can't see any >> reason a similar device couldn't be made and filled with a different >> gas mixture so as to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. > Except that that's not at all how VFDs work. No, of course not. I wasn't trying to suggest that it was likely the original device worked this way; I feel moderately sure it's vacuum fluorescent. I was taking issue with the dogmatic statement that "*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes". I don't know of any, but I see no reason it couldn't be done and, since there's a plausible way to do it, I am not nearly as confident as you are that it's never been done. Indeed, given decent vacuum equipment and a supply of the gases in question, it would not be out of the question to take a stock Nixie, open it up, and replace the gases inside to create a green Nixie. It might even be something a few people could do at home. :) Assuming there is such a gas mixture, of course. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 21:58:01 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:58:01 -0500 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: <505C998A.8070407@jwsss.com> References: <505BC865.6080504@neurotica.com> <505BD16E.30104@gmail.com> <505C1FE6.7040902@gmail.com> <505C998A.8070407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: went for 4600bucks i see only 5 bids On Fri, Sep 21, 2012 at 11:44 AM, jim s wrote: > > On 9/21/2012 1:05 AM, mc68010 wrote: > >> On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: >> >>> My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning >>> url comes assigned to .uk >>> >>> >> I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the >> UK. Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. >> > It is interesting if you go to the UK URL for ebay and list the vendor. > When you select the "show other auctions" you get some auction for tubing, > and not this one. > > If you navigate to the auction via making a US URL, you get, I think 8 > auctions total. I guess the tubing is listed for UK sale. I don't know > why a search in the UK would pick this up if you can't see the auction in > his "other sales" button. > > Wish I had a buck or two, I'd give it a shot. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 22:58:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:58:12 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280254.WAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> <201209280254.WAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50652054.6080603@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 10:54 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. >>> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], I can't see any >>> reason a similar device couldn't be made and filled with a different >>> gas mixture so as to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. >> Except that that's not at all how VFDs work. > > No, of course not. > > I wasn't trying to suggest that it was likely the original device > worked this way; I feel moderately sure it's vacuum fluorescent. I was > taking issue with the dogmatic statement that "*NO* green displays are > Nixie tubes". I don't know of any, but I see no reason it couldn't be > done and, since there's a plausible way to do it, I am not nearly as > confident as you are that it's never been done. That's nice. (why are we even talking about this?) [cracks knuckles] Yes, one can put a green filter over a Nixie tube. Then you'd have...surprise! A Nixie tube with a green filter, not a "green Nixie tube". "Nixie" is a trademarked name, owned originally by Burroughs, for an orange neon display tube with fully-formed metal digits as cathodes. That's the definition of "Nixie tube". You may try to rewrite history if you like, by talking about such madness as re-filling Nixie tubes with some gas other than neon and then there'd be Nixie tubes that don't glow orange, but that would be...well, madness...and it doesn't change the damn definition of "Nixie tube". But I forgot, this is classiccmp, where a fact isn't a fact unless it's printed in a book. But wait! I have a STACK OF BOOKS that talk about Nixie tubes and present these facts. You may come here and peruse them if you like, but this is where it ends for me, because this is a waste of time...I know what a damn Nixie tube is, and I really don't care if you unilaterally decide to redefine the term because you don't know any better. Kee-HRIST. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 00:07:23 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 22:07:23 -0700 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer Message-ID: <5065308B.20002@gmail.com> Hi all -- Anyone have any experience getting Data I/O's Promlink software (I have 2.6, 3.4, and 6.1) to talk to a System 19 programmer? I've read through the documentation on Bitsavers but it doesn't mention Promlink at all (it's possible that it predates the software completely). Promlink says it supports the System 19, and I've configured everything (baud rate, etc) on both ends but I don't know the magic incantation to use on the 19's panel to make it talk. Thanks, Josh From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 28 00:48:15 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:48:15 +0000 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/12 2:35 AM, "SPC" wrote: >I'm sure that someone is doing it from time ago, but as a >documentation effort (and ever that it wouldn't suppose a legal >problem), I would suggest to keep the photos of items like this one >which appear in eBay from time to time. > >This PDP8 is an example. > >SPc. > >2012/9/21 mc68010 : >> On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: >>> >>> My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning >>> url comes assigned to .uk >>> >> >> I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the >>UK. >> Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. >> >> Is there anything around about the design work at DEC ? I would love to >>hear >> the story about the red, white, and blue design of this box. Did they >> design it after a wild 4th of July BBQ? It looks so different. > > FWIW, I have an 8/f with the Industrial-8 faceplate, but the original 8/e/f/m switch paddles. I purchased the 8/f on eBay and the seller claimed that while someone was cleaning the faceplate, he wiped off all the printing. In addition to what I paid for the machine, I had to find another faceplate. What was available at the time was the Industrial-8, and I find I like it. I just wish I could find matching switch paddles for less than a second mortgage. :-) -- Ian PS: if I'd known he was going to 'clean' it, I'd have told him, don't touch it, just send it. Of course, it ended up on my doorstep in a liquor box with a bit of crumpled newspaper around it. Some people just shouldn't be allowed anywhere near vintage hardware. (Yes, I gave him negative feedback - especially since it also took seven weeks of nagging to get him to ship it. He's no longer on eBay under that name.) From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 28 00:56:36 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:56:36 +0000 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/26/12 9:26 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: >On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is >>already >> gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as still >> available. Who is in Seattle? > >I'm interested in the pep-70, but I'm far from Seattle. > >-ethan > > I'd be interested in the PEP-70 (for LCM) and I'm IN Seattle! We have one in our running 11/70 and I'd love to have a spare. Details? Hm, maybe the 11/05 as well, but that would be for me - the Museum already has some. :-) -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 01:29:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:29:56 -0400 Subject: slide rules Message-ID: <506543E4.8040000@neurotica.com> Coincidentally with the recent discussion of slide rules, this nice article just hit EDN: http://www.edn.com/design/analog/4396854/Slideshow--Slide-rules-and-charts---a-personal-collection?cid=Newsletter+-+EDN+Weekly -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Sep 28 02:02:28 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50652054.6080603@neurotica.com> References: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> <201209280254.WAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50652054.6080603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209280702.DAA18737@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > "Nixie" is a trademarked name, [...]. Oh, get off your high horse. I know that. I even allowed for it, and, for that definition, I agree - and agreed. In the quotes you posted: >>>>> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. >>>> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], [...] The latter line was my compaction of my original. Here's the original it's a compaction of: > Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". > But for the more genericized meaning, [...] I think recognizing that trademarks get genericized in informal use hardly counts as the "rewrit[ing] history" you seem to want to cast it as. Even if you think it's happened to "Nixie" less than I do. Nor do I think it fair to cast me as doing that "because [I] don't know any better" when, if you would bother to read the text I wrote upthread (and that you even quoted), it would have been obvious that I was aware that Nixie was once (and may still be) a trademark and that I was agreeing with you for the strict trademark definition. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 02:11:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:11:26 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280702.DAA18737@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5064D281.7080003@neurotica.com> <201209280254.WAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50652054.6080603@neurotica.com> <201209280702.DAA18737@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50654D9E.60809@neurotica.com> *plonk* On 09/28/2012 03:02 AM, Mouse wrote: >> "Nixie" is a trademarked name, [...]. > > Oh, get off your high horse. I know that. I even allowed for it, and, > for that definition, I agree - and agreed. In the quotes you posted: > >>>>>> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. >>>>> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], [...] > > The latter line was my compaction of my original. Here's the original > it's a compaction of: > >> Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". > >> But for the more genericized meaning, [...] > > I think recognizing that trademarks get genericized in informal use > hardly counts as the "rewrit[ing] history" you seem to want to cast it > as. Even if you think it's happened to "Nixie" less than I do. > > Nor do I think it fair to cast me as doing that "because [I] don't know > any better" when, if you would bother to read the text I wrote upthread > (and that you even quoted), it would have been obvious that I was aware > that Nixie was once (and may still be) a trademark and that I was > agreeing with you for the strict trademark definition. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Sep 28 02:19:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>> There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large >>> for such a small task without some other background motive. >> I disagree. [...] > It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen > someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could > use it for their own purposes. I don't doubt that for a moment. But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out could happen any other way. > A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory > (1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap > is available [...]. [...] a 486 based system will simply not have > enough physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it > would craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out > to disc while serving up pages via Apache. Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. Unless you actually need some of its more complex features, using apache for static content is a bit like using a Saturn V to launch a paper airplane. I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to 4.0.1 and tried to self-host; the compiler was so bloated it thrashed itself to death. At 64M there was no problem. (That's approximately the point at which I stopped trying to "upgrade" my machines, not entirely coincidentally.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Sep 28 02:28:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It finally occurred to me that [a microwvae after a lightning storm] >> can beep when it's not supposed to, it can turn on the microwaves >> when it's not supposed to. > Every microwave oven I've seen over here has a quite complex > interlock on the door that it independant of the microcontroller > syustem. No matter what the latter does, the magnetron cannot be > powered up. So did this one. But we were often, perhaps even usually, leaving the door closed when it was not in use, and was unwilling to count on our breaking that habit as the only defense against the potential bad consequences. (Or would have been, I believe; it was long enough ago I don't specifically recall, but I suspect I didn't reason it out in that much detail, rather than just "eep, it could turn on the magnetron, better open it up and see if I can eliminate the processor".) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 02:30:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:30:25 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 03:19 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>>>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>>> There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large >>>> for such a small task without some other background motive. >>> I disagree. [...] >> It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen >> someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could >> use it for their own purposes. > > I don't doubt that for a moment. > > But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out could > happen any other way. You are obsessing about corner cases and picking apart assertions. Not giving you shit, just pointing it out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 02:46:57 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:46:57 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280131.VAA17523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209280131.VAA17523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' >>>> To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' >>> You, Sir, are awesome. >> Why? > > (a) Because you haven't bought into the societal assumption (at least > on this side of the pond, but what I've seen leads me to think it > exists there too) that sports are fun by default; > > (b) Because you realize this and had no hesitation using it to turn > that kid's bait; > > (c) Because you consider that "the only sane reply"; > > (d) Because you do maths for fun. > (e) Let me add it can be cheaper than going out to the pub,gym etc Getting a new collectable can give you many hours of restoration and repair time plus research and use time of the item. where a nights drinking is then over except for the headache next day. Dave Caroline From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 03:20:25 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:20:25 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> > Absolutely. When computing had STYLE. (GANGNAM STYLE!) DEC Style :o) (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these machines) :o) From useddec at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 03:20:56 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 03:20:56 -0500 Subject: PDP8-L and Teletype in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have an F or M with the complete industrial front panel. I might have extra red and blue switches still boxed away. I might be able to trade/sell you a regular one. I'm still tring to get caught up, but next surgery is Nov 1st. Paul On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Ian King wrote: > On 9/21/12 2:35 AM, "SPC" wrote: > >>I'm sure that someone is doing it from time ago, but as a >>documentation effort (and ever that it wouldn't suppose a legal >>problem), I would suggest to keep the photos of items like this one >>which appear in eBay from time to time. >> >>This PDP8 is an example. >> >>SPc. >> >>2012/9/21 mc68010 : >>> On 9/20/2012 11:06 PM, SPC wrote: >>>> >>>> My excuses. I've located it with my eBay searchings and the returning >>>> url comes assigned to .uk >>>> >>> >>> I really just mentioned it in case people were thinking it was in the >>>UK. >>> Getting that to the UK would cost a mess of money. >>> >>> Is there anything around about the design work at DEC ? I would love to >>>hear >>> the story about the red, white, and blue design of this box. Did they >>> design it after a wild 4th of July BBQ? It looks so different. >> >> > > FWIW, I have an 8/f with the Industrial-8 faceplate, but the original > 8/e/f/m switch paddles. I purchased the 8/f on eBay and the seller > claimed that while someone was cleaning the faceplate, he wiped off all > the printing. In addition to what I paid for the machine, I had to find > another faceplate. What was available at the time was the Industrial-8, > and I find I like it. I just wish I could find matching switch paddles > for less than a second mortgage. :-) -- Ian > > PS: if I'd known he was going to 'clean' it, I'd have told him, don't > touch it, just send it. Of course, it ended up on my doorstep in a liquor > box with a bit of crumpled newspaper around it. Some people just > shouldn't be allowed anywhere near vintage hardware. (Yes, I gave him > negative feedback - especially since it also took seven weeks of nagging > to get him to ship it. He's no longer on eBay under that name.) > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 03:29:19 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:29:19 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> Message-ID: <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 2:20 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these machines) :o) But why does a phone need it? Ben. From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Sep 28 03:48:09 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:48:09 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 28 September 2012 08:28, Mouse wrote: >> Every microwave oven I've seen over here has a quite complex >> interlock on the door that it independant of the microcontroller >> syustem. No matter what the latter does, the magnetron cannot be >> powered up. > > So did this one. But we were often, perhaps even usually, leaving the > door closed when it was not in use, and was unwilling to count on our > breaking that habit as the only defense against the potential bad > consequences Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on by itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it while quickly sourcing a replacement. I couldn't easily power it off when not in use as the socket was behind it in a non-spouse friendly spot. I'd be happy to leave the current one with the door open when not in use, but it has an internal lamp that comes on when the door is open, which gets irritating and a waste of energy. At least this time I have an external isolation switch so I can switch it off if I need to (although then I upset the clock display..) Rob From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 28 04:06:08 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:06:08 -0700 Subject: microdata beginnings In-Reply-To: <6D1EF50C-8DDF-4248-A353-AA8E5F935397@classiccmp.org> References: <6D1EF50C-8DDF-4248-A353-AA8E5F935397@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <50656880.5040709@jwsss.com> Are you getting my offline messages? no reply yet. I can help, but only if I know you are getting my emails. biggest caution is to be sure you don't power the reflex w/o checking that the head strap and spindle locks are off. Also you can test the power supply on your bench. You don't really need to restore the battery portion to run it for testing. It only needs to be there to allow you to survive power fail to hold up the mos memory. > Pictures are at www.ezwind.net/microdata > > Game on :) > > J > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Sep 28 04:09:30 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 05:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't doubt that for a moment. >> But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out >> could happen any other way. > You are obsessing about corner cases and picking apart assertions. I thought you'd plonked me? (Not that it's a big deal either way, just a bit surprised.) Valid point. I don't know whether it's the precisionist mindset going "that's not the same thing!" or the debugger mindset going "don't assume X and Y are the same without realizing when they're not!" or even if there's really any difference between the two, but it _is_ true that this isn't a situation where that level of pickiness is needed, nor even, really, called for. > Not giving you shit, just pointing it out. Is there a difference? Half :), but only half - I'm not sure what the difference between the two is, though you clearly feel/think there is one. There's probably just something I'm missing.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Fri Sep 28 07:15:46 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 07:15:46 -0500 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: <5065308B.20002@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/28/12 12:07 AM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > Hi all -- > > Anyone have any experience getting Data I/O's Promlink software (I have > 2.6, 3.4, and 6.1) to talk to a System 19 programmer? I've read through > the documentation on Bitsavers but it doesn't mention Promlink at all > (it's possible that it predates the software completely). Promlink says > it supports the System 19, and I've configured everything (baud rate, > etc) on both ends but I don't know the magic incantation to use on the > 19's panel to make it talk. > > Thanks, > Josh I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal program running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The cursor (>) will appear and you're ready to go. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 28 07:38:16 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:38:16 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <024601cd9ce4$6352cde0$29f869a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> <024601cd9ce4$6352cde0$29f869a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50659A38.8050309@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/09/12 3:14 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > An amazing photograph! > > Are there enough people close enough to each other for them to get together > and preserve it as a whole? It would seem a shame to split it up, and it > really should be on show. > Agreed - imho it would ideally be kept together like the CHM's IBM room exhibit. Definitely most valuable in a museum setting, *not* broken up to hobbyists without means to preserve (I know how costly and difficult that is to sustain). --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Sep 28 07:46:03 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 08:46:03 -0400 Subject: My p**** is bigger than your PDP - Re: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50659C0B.2010008@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/09/12 7:40 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 27/09/2012 19:54, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 09/27/2012 05:10 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> On 27 September 2012 09:09, Paul Anderson wrote: >>>> Wow-very niceI. Looks like there might be BA11-Fs under the RK05s'. >>>> Nice arrangment, but what's behind the racks? RP0xs???? >>>> >>> >>> I think I've just had 'a moment' :) >> >> So that's what they're calling it now. ;) > > None of our workshop people know DEC stuff these days, it's down to me and > the directors. I'm the official company bloke in charge of 'old stuff' > (ES47? Old? Kinnell) and trying to explain to the youngsters how DEC got > into the bloodstream and you would move mountains to save PDP11s pretty much > fell on deaf ears, they're all PC types now. > > I showed them this pic while I was frothing at the mouth and they all said > 'I bet my phone has more power than that'. This is the sole reason we need > to keep going! > Which is an utterly banal remark we are all tired of hearing. The worst part is, none of them have the knowledge to justify the assertion. Let's pray none of them go into software, or they will need 8-core Xeons with 96GB to run their crappy products. --Toby From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 28 08:32:00 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 06:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: microdata beginnings In-Reply-To: <6D1EF50C-8DDF-4248-A353-AA8E5F935397@classiccmp.org> References: <6D1EF50C-8DDF-4248-A353-AA8E5F935397@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Jay West wrote: > Started prepping the Microdata for restoration tonight. The cpu, mag tape, > and front panel are in very good condition. The power supply - not so much. > It was apparently a long term home for mice. I don't see any chewed wiring - > suprising - but their leavings induced a lot of corrosion and rust. I'm gonna > bet those batteries aren't holding a charge. No power applied yet, going to > go through the power supply with a fine tooth comb first. > That's a nice machine Jay. I hope you've got software for it! Let me know when you're done - I'll show you how to hook it up for telnet-in. ;) I'll ask on the MV list I'm on whether or not someone has more info or schematics on the machine. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 08:32:43 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:32:43 -0400 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes Message-ID: > But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar > device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as > to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some > circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....) OK, I have started the clock. Shall we place bets on when someone digs up real Burroughs Nixie that glows green? In the electron tube collecting world, weird "never" types are always popping up. Just the other day, someone discovered one instance of this (specifically, a type 41 from Speed that is not the same as the industry standard 41), and stumped the experts. So, it would not surprise me if Burroughs made some Nixies, perhaps as custom devices, low-runners, or even just lab animals, filled with a krypton-neon mix (yes, green). -- Will From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 28 08:47:20 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 06:47:20 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506492EC.7040902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "geneb": Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:27 PM > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, ben wrote: >> With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody doing metal >> toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking >> the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one. > > If I had a good metal chewing CNC machine, I'd be up for it. Just think > of the cool paddles in anodized aluminum. I agree that this would look cool (in a non-authentic sort of way). I do want to point out, though, that it is a bad idea to make the switch handles tougher than the underlying switch. Otherwise, bumping the front of the machine is likely to damage the switches and/or the PCB that they are attached to. While it is a pain that the handles are a point of failure, they do protect the stuff behind them. Perhaps only the pivot axle really needs to be plastic. Thin diameter ABS rod shouldn't be too hard to find these days :-). Of course, given a CAD drawing of a handle, it should also be possible to mill entire handles in plastic. (More practically, mill an aluminum mold to cast sets of plastic handles.) Vince From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 08:47:33 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:47:33 -0400 Subject: Monsanto IC datasheet request Message-ID: I found some strange ICs from Monsanto. They are type MQL105, in original Monsanto packaging. I can find no datasheets on the net (one site mentions the chip, but says scans would be "difficult"). Oddly, the datecodes on the chips have been erased at the factory. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 11:04:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:04:25 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5065CA89.8060308@sydex.com> On 09/28/2012 12:28 AM, Mouse wrote: > So did this one. But we were often, perhaps even usually, leaving the > door closed when it was not in use, and was unwilling to count on our > breaking that habit as the only defense against the potential bad > consequences. (Or would have been, I believe; it was long enough ago I > don't specifically recall, but I suspect I didn't reason it out in that > much detail, rather than just "eep, it could turn on the magnetron, > better open it up and see if I can eliminate the processor".) I can't comment on other countries, but a door interlock was specified for microwave ovens by US law in 1973. Some ovens made just after that law have duplicate interlocks in series. Lawyers can be a mighty force for technical innovation... --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 28 12:04:36 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:04:36 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5065D8A4.1090804@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these > machines) :o) ben wrote: > But why does a phone need it? A cell phone needs a baseband processor with significant amount of compute power (much more than e.g. a PDP-11) to handle the voice codec functions (compression and decompression), and the OTA protocol (e.g., GSM). In most phones the baseband processor also provides GPS location services. Beyond that, cell phones usually have a separate application processor. For "dumb phones" the application processor only has to provide a fairly simple user interface, so not much compute power is necessary. For smart phones the application processor is usually quite powerful. An example of why that is useful is the GPS navigation applications, which provide real time 2D and 3D mapping, turn-by-turn directions with speech synthesis, and in some cases, speech recognition. There is undoubtedly some software bloat resulting in the phone needing more powerful processors than would otherwise be required, just as is true on desktop computers. However, there are legitimate reasons for wanting a very powerful application processor in a phone, other than just eye candy and bloat. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 12:16:48 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:16:48 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <5065D8A4.1090804@brouhaha.com> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <5065D8A4.1090804@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5065DB80.4060209@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 11:04 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > A cell phone needs a baseband processor with significant amount of > compute power (much more than e.g. a PDP-11) to handle the voice codec > functions (compression and decompression), and the OTA protocol (e.g., > GSM). In most phones the baseband processor also provides GPS location > services. I tend to use a phone as a phone. > Beyond that, cell phones usually have a separate application processor. > For "dumb phones" the application processor only has to provide a fairly > simple user interface, so not much compute power is necessary. For > smart phones the application processor is usually quite powerful. An > example of why that is useful is the GPS navigation applications, which > provide real time 2D and 3D mapping, turn-by-turn directions with speech > synthesis, and in some cases, speech recognition. > A more useful function would be finding people in a Mall. > There is undoubtedly some software bloat resulting in the phone needing > more powerful processors than would otherwise be required, just as is > true on desktop computers. However, there are legitimate reasons for > wanting a very powerful application processor in a phone, other than > just eye candy and bloat. I treat it as black magic box that way, nobody will admit how that secret part works. > Eric Ben. I don't trust marketing since the advent of CD's. Now getting back into Analog Audio. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 12:18:08 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:18:08 -0700 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5065DBD0.5070708@gmail.com> On 9/28/2012 5:15 AM, Richard Lynch wrote: > On 9/28/12 12:07 AM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> Anyone have any experience getting Data I/O's Promlink software (I have >> 2.6, 3.4, and 6.1) to talk to a System 19 programmer? I've read through >> the documentation on Bitsavers but it doesn't mention Promlink at all >> (it's possible that it predates the software completely). Promlink says >> it supports the System 19, and I've configured everything (baud rate, >> etc) on both ends but I don't know the magic incantation to use on the >> 19's panel to make it talk. >> >> Thanks, >> Josh > I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal program > running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The cursor (>) > will appear and you're ready to go. > > > Thanks! That's exactly the missing information I needed and now everything seems to be working happily. Now to dump some EPROMs... Thanks again, Josh From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 28 12:18:53 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:18:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: >>>>>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... >>>> There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large >>>> for such a small task without some other background motive. >>> I disagree. [...] >> It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen >> someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could use >> it for their own purposes. > > I don't doubt that for a moment. > > But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out could > happen any other way. For a lesser machine, quite possibly, but an 8-core Xeon and _96GB_ of ram? No way. Actually, for me, the 96GB of ram is the thing that really puts it over the top. >> A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory >> (1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap is >> available [...]. [...] a 486 based system will simply not have enough >> physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it would >> craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to disc >> while serving up pages via Apache. > > Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. Unless you actually need some > of its more complex features, using apache for static content is a bit > like using a Saturn V to launch a paper airplane. With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days? > I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to 4.0.1 > and tried to self-host; the compiler was so bloated it thrashed itself > to death. At 64M there was no problem. (That's approximately the point > at which I stopped trying to "upgrade" my machines, not entirely > coincidentally.) Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram? Pretty much any Intel Pentium or AMD K5 can easily support 64MB or 128MB of ram but just finding a Socket 3 based system with support for 64MB of cachable ram would be a major challenge. I suppose if you have time to hand-build and tune the OS and stock services for each machine you admin you could make it "work" with 32MB of ram, but outside of embedded applications, 32MB just doesn't cut it today. Even then, this still wouldn't solve the latency problems though. Again, as much as I like the i486, it just isn't going to be able to keep up as a modern webserver. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 12:27:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348853225.39947.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire On 09/27/2012 11:47 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: But she's utilizing old world technologies, homemade furnaces and > whatnot. ? So if something is home-made, it's "old world"?? No. C: In a manner of speaking. Whether it's homemade or commercially made in this case there isn't much difference. If a person were to say build a lathe, even if it was from castings (far more difficult to melt iron then whatever she's heating in her unit/s), it's kind of old world - that's how they did it 100-400 years ago. If a manufacturer were to market a lathe, using the latest alloys, finite element analysis, etc. etc., it ain't old world anymore. ? Further, there's a commercial furnace on her workbench in those photos.? There's very little that's home-made there. (except her chips of course) C: I'd have to look. If it has newer bells and whistles, current monitoring, pyrometer, etc., ok it's no longer old world. But the guts of the furnace still are likely, unless it was made of fancy Ytong blocks or something. > She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her. > But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground. ? She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated circuits in a home lab.? As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor physics, well, that's not the goal.? Even she doesn't have enough funding for that. C: So her methods are all that different from the way the first experimental transistors or fets were made? Something tells me no. Being that this knowledge has been around for a long time, it's hard to see how she's breaking ground. It's still a transistor after all. ?These "kids" coming up with, in a manner of speaking only, innovation, is fantastic. I'm not knocking it. But is it really new at all? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 28 12:29:46 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:29:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have > to contain I wonder?) Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode erosion though. Alexey From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 12:30:05 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> References: <20120926123902.A34800@shell.lmi.net> <1348759119.14600.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649C66.80306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1348853405.82795.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave McGuire On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make baby > carrots. > > C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby > carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. > Duh. ? Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy proposition.? I prefer to use them to make baby oil.? For that, though, you need a proper press. C: In the sense that kittens are _babies_, fox kits are _babies_. Not fraudulent adult carrots turned into baby carrots. oi From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Sep 28 12:30:31 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:30:31 +0000 Subject: Monsanto IC datasheet request Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2520763F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > I found some strange ICs from Monsanto. They are type MQL105, in > original Monsanto packaging. Out of idle curiosity... look like an optocoupler? Opto-driver? Or LSI? Maybe LSI in a flatpack? Or something completely different? I know that MQL is still seen today on some Micrel optodriver parts. May be coincidence. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 28 12:34:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120928103033.G40875@shell.lmi.net> > > (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these machines) :o) > But why does a phone need it? "So that it can be FASTER!" I don't WANT voices to be faster -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 12:46:11 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: , , , <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <1348854371.9606.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: dwight elvey Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight? C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much on the lite side for me. ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 12:54:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:54:48 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> >> (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these machines) >> :o) > But why does a phone need it? It doesn't need it, as far as you think the phone is just a phone. If you think that small slab of power on your pocket is a computer with - GPS location - Local maps - Music player - Knowledge navigator (yes!) - Videogame :oD - Remote control of my media player - Portable telephone Now you can see it needs it. Of course you can live without all of that. But it makes my life WAY easier. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 28 12:55:22 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:55:22 -0500 Subject: Microwave sink (was: Re: strange remark about your collection?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 9/28/12, Rob wrote: >Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on by >itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it while >quickly sourcing a replacement. This may not be the best idea, unless your water is "dirty" (in the sense of having something suspended that forms nucleation sites for steam bubbles). Our water is "clean", and my wife once decided to try to heat some up in our microwave. It superheated by a noticeable amount, then finally boiled off catastrophically. Big cloud of steam, microwave door blown open, loud noise, 100 C water splashing around the kitchen. There was some damage apparent later in the switch that should normally turn the thing off when the door is open, which I eventually had to replace, but otherwise the microwave itself was OK. Maybe this is an unusual event and almost certainly it depends on what container the water is in, but I'd use a little caution with that approach given our experience. Howzabout a pile of CD's or marshmallows or a crate of eggs in there instead? ;-) OK seriously, wet towel or wheel of cheese in a bowl or something that won't superheat and has not much mechanical integrity? Physics majors, any good suggestions? Oatmeal in the water? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 13:06:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:06:14 -0400 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have >> to contain I wonder?) > > Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, > at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the > decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode > erosion though. Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 12:57:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:57:04 -0300 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer References: Message-ID: <40529EE9E80F44C2B014D7105F410C76@tababook> > I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal program > running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The cursor (>) > will appear and you're ready to go. Does LRLRUDUDABAB works on that too? :oO (konami code hehehe) :oD From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 13:17:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:17:29 -0400 Subject: Microwave sink (was: Re: strange remark about your collection?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 28, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 9/28/12, Rob wrote: >> Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on by >> itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it while >> quickly sourcing a replacement. > > This may not be the best idea, unless your water is "dirty" (in the sense of having something suspended that forms nucleation sites for steam bubbles). Our water is "clean", and my wife once decided to try to heat some up in our microwave. It superheated by a noticeable amount, then finally boiled off catastrophically. Big cloud of steam, microwave door blown open, loud noise, 100 C water splashing around the kitchen. There was some damage apparent later in the switch that should normally turn the thing off when the door is open, which I eventually had to replace, but otherwise the microwave itself was OK. I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an urban legend. The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't imagine any container in a household that wouldn't provide a sufficiently rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a thing! Either way, though, leaving the water jug in there would provide a sufficient microwave energy sink to take the "heat" for a few minutes in case it catches you by surprise; a jug of hot water is a lot better than a fire. I don't think the intent was to then remove the jug and use the water. - Dave From doc at vaxen.net Fri Sep 28 13:32:41 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:32:41 -0500 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5065ED49.809@vaxen.net> On 9/28/12 1:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Sep 28, 2012, at 1:55 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > >> At 12:00 -0500 9/28/12, Rob wrote: >>> Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on >>> by itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it >>> while quickly sourcing a replacement. >> >> This may not be the best idea, unless your water is "dirty" (in the >> sense of having something suspended that forms nucleation sites for >> steam bubbles). Our water is "clean", and my wife once decided to >> try to heat some up in our microwave. It superheated by a >> noticeable amount, then finally boiled off catastrophically. Big >> cloud of steam, microwave door blown open, loud noise, 100 C water >> splashing around the kitchen. There was some damage apparent later >> in the switch that should normally turn the thing off when the door >> is open, which I eventually had to replace, but otherwise the >> microwave itself was OK. > > I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an > urban legend. The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't > imagine any container in a household that wouldn't provide a > sufficiently rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a > thing! A common canning jar is smooth enough to superheat "soft" water. Personal experience, trip to the opthamologist, etc... Doc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 13:33:14 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:33:14 -0400 Subject: Monsanto IC datasheet request In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2520763F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2520763F@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: > Out of idle curiosity... look like an optocoupler? Opto-driver? Or LSI? Maybe LSI in a flatpack? Or something completely different? > > I know that MQL is still seen today on some Micrel optodriver parts. May be coincidence. Plain old gray 14 pin DIP. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 13:36:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:36:14 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 05:09 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I don't doubt that for a moment. > >>> But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out >>> could happen any other way. > >> You are obsessing about corner cases and picking apart assertions. > > I thought you'd plonked me? (Not that it's a big deal either way, just > a bit surprised.) Nah, that was a "short-timeout plonk". I've known you for far too long to plonk you permanently. > Valid point. I don't know whether it's the precisionist mindset going > "that's not the same thing!" or the debugger mindset going "don't > assume X and Y are the same without realizing when they're not!" or > even if there's really any difference between the two, but it _is_ true > that this isn't a situation where that level of pickiness is needed, > nor even, really, called for. I understand both mindsets, and I agree. The thing is, our society is losing information at an amazing and terrifying rate, and one of the pieces of information that appears (due to this conversation) on the verge of being "lost" is what a Nixie tube actually is. It's not really open to interpretation or debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said so, and has done so over many decades. Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a different gas...but while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only goal is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list? And if it is, then have you really achieved that? I say possibly not, because then you'd have a *modified* Nixie tube. >> Not giving you shit, just pointing it out. > > Is there a difference? The difference is intention, that's all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 13:38:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:38:07 -0400 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 02:17 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on by >>> itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it while >>> quickly sourcing a replacement. >> >> This may not be the best idea, unless your water is "dirty" (in the sense of having something suspended that forms nucleation sites for steam bubbles). Our water is "clean", and my wife once decided to try to heat some up in our microwave. It superheated by a noticeable amount, then finally boiled off catastrophically. Big cloud of steam, microwave door blown open, loud noise, 100 C water splashing around the kitchen. There was some damage apparent later in the switch that should normally turn the thing off when the door is open, which I eventually had to replace, but otherwise the microwave itself was OK. > > I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an urban > legend. The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't imagine > any container in a household that wouldn't provide a sufficiently > rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a thing! Nope, it's real. It happened to me with a glazed mug about 15 years ago. I touched the mug and it virtually detonated. Fortunately it wasn't very full, but it still hurt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 13:42:40 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:42:40 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> Message-ID: <5065EFA0.1020500@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 11:54 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> (but I bet my iPhone has more processing power than these >>> machines) :o) >> But why does a phone need it? > > It doesn't need it, as far as you think the phone is just a phone. > > If you think that small slab of power on your pocket is a computer with > - GPS location > - Local maps > - Music player > - Knowledge navigator (yes!) > - Videogame :oD > - Remote control of my media player > - Portable telephone > > Now you can see it needs it. Of course you can live without all of > that. But it makes my life WAY easier. > I only borrow one to keep from getting lost in shopping malls. As a side issue is software better than hardware? Other than the fact that Zillions of users have to share the same signal could have it been done just in analog the phone and communications part. I like to be away from the computer most of the time. The only real high tech item I have is a Kindle (I just use the PC for mail, surfing and few low power games - 386 stuff). and that is to read a few books away from my computer. Novels rather than say data books. It is too hard to use the kindle for a large PDF like The TTL data book for design ... . Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 28 13:51:14 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 11:51:14 -0700 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> References: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5065F1A2.9080402@bitsavers.org> On 9/28/12 11:38 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nope, it's real. It happened to me with a glazed mug about 15 years > ago. I touched the mug and it virtually detonated. Fortunately it > wasn't very full, but it still hurt. > Happened to me about a year ago in a glass mug. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 13:55:48 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:55:48 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1348854371.9606.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348854371.9606.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: dwight elvey > > > Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight > > C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much on the lite side for me. To hell with the mine is bigger brag :) Sometime a small lathe is useful I did not expand the match head http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the prospective customer :( part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5 axis which also is a small machine 3mm od Dave Caroline From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 28 14:00:59 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:00:59 +0200 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:05:22 +0200 Jos Dreesen wrote: > I bought it, hoping there would be 1 or 2 RD54's inside the system. > This was not to be.... > > > So available, in Zurich, Switzerland : > > uVAX II in a BA123 enclosure, complete, ( KA650=B 8 MB), with RF215 > ( 400MB DSSI disk ) and TK70 ??? Pardon? That is a remarkably nice setup. And you are going to dismiss it only because you can't extract some crappy RD54s out of it? What gives you the RD54, that the RF215 can't? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 14:08:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pig in a blanket Message-ID: <1348859317.84679.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/franklin_pc8000.html that's what it made me think of. Sorry, cluttering up the list again. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 14:13:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 15:13:38 -0400 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5065F6E2.2010401@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 03:00 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> I bought it, hoping there would be 1 or 2 RD54's inside the system. >> This was not to be.... >> >> >> So available, in Zurich, Switzerland : >> >> uVAX II in a BA123 enclosure, complete, ( KA650=B 8 MB), with RF215 >> ( 400MB DSSI disk ) and TK70 > ??? > Pardon? > That is a remarkably nice setup. And you are going to dismiss it only > because you can't extract some crappy RD54s out of it? What gives you > the RD54, that the RF215 can't? ...about $400 on eBay? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 28 14:17:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:17:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > I understand both mindsets, and I agree. The thing is, our society is > losing information at an amazing and terrifying rate, and one of the > pieces of information that appears (due to this conversation) on the > verge of being "lost" is what a Nixie tube actually is. It's not really > open to interpretation or debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said > so, and has done so over many decades. > > Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a different gas...but > while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only goal > is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list? And if it is, then have > you really achieved that? I say possibly not, because then you'd have a > *modified* Nixie tube. Has anyone come up with a method of rebuilding failed Nixie tubes yet? That would interest me a lot more than somehow changing the display color. Given that people have been able to fabricate entire tubes in their own shop/lab now, it seems like it would only be a matter of time before someone figures out how to do the same with Nixie tubes. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 14:18:39 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 12:18:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348854371.9606.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1348859919.98459.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Dave Caroline > Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight > > C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much on the lite side for me. To hell with the mine is bigger brag :) C: It's really not about that I don't think. It's about conditioning. Most machinists are...ta da, machinists. They've sweated out in hot/cold/dimly lit shops for eons (I actually worked in one them for a couple of months). Using humongous swarfblasters that have steel bins to catch the turnings. They see a Derbyshire and look upon it as a toy. ?On one of the forums, there was this discussion about a man who wanted to find something to start working on clocks and such. Someone, joking around, calls out "git yourself a 17 x 60. You can make small part on a big lathe!" For some if you can't true your crankshaft it just ain't no good. "Sometime a small lathe is useful I did not expand the match head http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the prospective customer :( part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5 axis which also is a small machine 3mm od" C: Right. Which is why you put one of these in your living room: http://qmt-india.com/lathes/extra_heavy_duty_cone_pulley so you can make that stuff, plus anything a lot bigger! Makes perfect sense to me. Can't beat that 80" swing. You could mount _me_ on the face plate! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 28 14:20:48 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:20:48 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> Message-ID: <5065F890.9030607@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > It doesn't need it, as far as you think the phone is just a phone. Actually it does. GSM, CDMA, etc. require more significantly more processing power than was available in a minicomputer in the 1970s. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 28 15:01:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348761025.15761.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348768631.70025.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1348854371.9606.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Chris Tofu > wrote: >> >> >> From: dwight elvey >> >> >> Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight >> >> C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much on the lite side for me. > > To hell with the mine is bigger brag :) > > Sometime a small lathe is useful > I did not expand the match head > http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG > > Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the > prospective customer :( > part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5 > axis which also is a small machine > 3mm od > How about the "A LOT BIGGER" brag? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub6X8pjo5ls Video of what can happen when things go dangerously wrong. I should take a picture of my MaxNC 10 next to the 'bot. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 28 15:02:10 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:02:10 +0200 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <50660242.1070407@bluewin.ch> On 09/28/2012 09:00 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 21:05:22 +0200 > Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> I bought it, hoping there would be 1 or 2 RD54's inside the system. >> This was not to be.... >> >> >> So available, in Zurich, Switzerland : >> >> uVAX II in a BA123 enclosure, complete, ( KA650=B 8 MB), with RF215 >> ( 400MB DSSI disk ) and TK70 > ??? > Pardon? > That is a remarkably nice setup. And you are going to dismiss it only > because you can't extract some crappy RD54s out of it? What gives you > the RD54, that the RF215 can't? Fitting disks for my RQDX3's, that I will hang onto my PDP11's.... Not to sell on Ebay, where they would not fetch much due to location. And I already have a VAX3800, with plenty of DSSI diskspace. Jos From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 28 15:11:51 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 13:11:51 -0700 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <5065F1A2.9080402@bitsavers.org> References: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> <5065F1A2.9080402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50660487.8090207@jwsss.com> super cooling is possible too. We did it with a water / sugar solution back in the chemistry class day. the superheating was done by the teacher for all to watch, so we didn't toast anyone trying the experiment on their own. Also was not done with microwave. jim On 9/28/2012 11:51 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Happened to me about a year ago in a glass mug. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Fri Sep 28 15:12:43 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:12:43 +0200 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <5065F6E2.2010401@neurotica.com> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5065F6E2.2010401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506604BB.5010007@bluewin.ch> On 09/28/2012 09:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...about $400 on eBay? > Maybe in the US, not if they need shipping from Europe. And the uVAX II is just one system too much for me, so I'd like it gone. Jos From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 28 15:14:57 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:14:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com> References: <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have >>> to contain I wonder?) >> >> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, >> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the >> decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode >> erosion though. > > Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in > single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence is different, you're not discharging through the gas, and the lower pressure will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I imagine/hope it would at least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build a barrier that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy electrons. But I'm probably overthinking it. Surely there is another element that will emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum? Alexey From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 14:54:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:54:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: The best CP/M machine ever? was Re: Kaypro II In-Reply-To: <2E8FD508-DE93-469D-A1DE-5AC01CD7A02D@allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Sep 27, 12 04:36:25 pm Message-ID: > I liked the HP 125 (and 120) ... my favorite CP/M machines. I hae the HP120. alas I never managed to get the right keyboard for it, so I made a couple of workarounds. One lets me connect an HP262x terminal keyboard to it, the other was to modifty a apare HP150 keyboard to have the right keymap. > > But the 125 had two big problems: > > 1. it was *heavy*. In fact, carrying one from home to HP on my last > day of work at HP in 1983 gave me a hernia. The 120 is quite small and light. It's muc hthe same case as the HP150, of course. For some odd reason the itnernal printer was never available, even though the interfae is fitted on the backplanem so the case top cover is differnet to the HP150 one. > > 2. the power switch on was located in the worst place ... on the front of > the main unit, where the keyboard would turn off the computer if you > pushed the keyboard away from you and toward the base. Did that twice :) That suprises me. I alwauys thought the hP125 was essentailyl an HP262x terminal with a totaly differnt logic board, and as such the power swithc would be round the back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 15:00:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:00:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120927164612.W77812@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 27, 12 04:47:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power control' which was an > > electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro > > trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very > > couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated > > a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint > > where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control. > > If you used the input sine wave instead of a motor, you could simulate > that with an SCR! A triac would be better as it would contuct on both half-cycles. But be careful. You don;t want to switch over fractions of the AC cycle (like a lamp dimmer). You want the magnetron to be fully on for a bit, then fully off for a (different) bit. The magnetron is essentially a facy directly heated diode valve. For mechancial reaosns, the anode is earthed, the filament runs at a high -ve voltage. The transformer powers the filmanent and provides the HV. You need to have the filament fully powred for the magnetron to do anything much, hence the reason not to try swithcign the AC over part of the cycle. In any case the mechancial thing was easier to fix :-) Am I the only pwerson to rememebr 'simmerstats'? They are still used AFAIK (or at least the ceramic hob (cooktop) we got about 4 years ago uses them). A simmerstat is a hot wire and bimetalic stip used as a pulse width modulator, used to switch a conventional heating element on and off and deliver the right average heat to the thing you are cooking. It's not a thermostat, it doesn't check the temperature of the load. It just turns the element on for a few seconds, then off for a diffenrnt length of time, and so on. COme to think of it, years ago I saw a small smmmerstat built into an over-sized UK mains plug, to be used with tabletop plate warmers, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 15:02:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:02:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5064EA5C.6080008@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 27, 12 08:07:56 pm Message-ID: > Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking > specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3 things tht used them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 14:35:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:35:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <5064A044.7030609@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 27, 12 02:51:48 pm Message-ID: > That's a very blurry distinction, and is a path directly into > quicksand on this list. ;) Where DOES one draw the line between > hardware and firmware? Hmmm... One 'thought experiemnt' goes like this : Take your favourite microprocessor and write a stand-alone program for it. Burn that program into an EPROM and wire it up to the microprosseor with whatever RAM and peripherla chips are needed. Most people agree that EPROM cotnains 'firmware'. But an EPROM is just a combinatorial logic circuit. So for each of the 8 data bits of the EPROM, write down the logic equation giving it as a functionof the address inputs. Now implement that logic equation using TTL gates. Repeat for the other EPROM data pins. Wire the mess up, add tri-state buffers to the oputput, and connect it in place of the EPROM. The microrpccor runs as before. It must do. It gets the same logic levels on its data pins in the 2 cases for each address it outputs. The microprocessor cann't know whether it's an EPROM or a mass of 74xx chips. But the result sure doesn;t _look_ like firmware :-) For that matter, It's difficult to distinguish between 'microcode' and a 'state machine'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 15:10:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:10:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209280131.VAA17523@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 27, 12 09:31:11 pm Message-ID: > > >>> He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???' > >>> To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????' > >> You, Sir, are awesome. > > Why? > > (a) Because you haven't bought into the societal assumption (at least > on this side of the pond, but what I've seen leads me to think it > exists there too) that sports are fun by default; AS you know, I regard personal observations as being very useful. I know sports s are not fun to everybody because they are not fun to me. Even when I was very small I had no interest in playing with a ball i nthe garden. I was more interested in looking at clocks (something that I love to this day). I never wanted to watch sports on TV. I will admeit that therefore I have avoided doing any form of sport all my life, and it's _possible_ (but unlikely) there's something I would enjoy. But that is _vey_ unlikely. > > (b) Because you realize this and had no hesitation using it to turn > that kid's bait; I don;t think it was bair. I think he was genuinely suprised that anyone would do mathematics for fon. I suspect he thoguth that solving equations was the ultimate torture. Jaut as I would regard having to chase a ball around. > > (c) Because you consider that "the only sane reply"; > > (d) Because you do maths for fun. Actually, I am a lot less methematically-inclined than many of my friends,. In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find a neat solution to the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network circuit [1]. I can (and did) write down the equations givign the output voltage as a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition principle to solve for one input at a time) and solve them. This shows me it does indeed behave as I'd esxpect, but I still don't feel satisfied. I don't feel I really understnad it. I am still looking for an intuitive way to figure it out. On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically inclined than 90% (or more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of the neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural logarithms, not the elctronic chaerge), for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 14:44:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:44:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209272001.QAA15753@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 27, 12 04:01:07 pm Message-ID: > > >> [...] (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). > > *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. > > Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie". > > But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar > device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as > to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some > circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....) Indeed. And _I_ would call that a 'nixie' tube (generic use), but not a 'Nixie' tube (trademark use) :-) I think kthe term 'nixie tube' is already reasoanbly genric for fully-formed-character [1] neon discharge displays, no matter who made then. I would ertainly use the termi for similar devices made nby Philips/Mullard. [1] Not necessarily digits. The 10 digit ones are by far the msot common, but tehre are others. One that is relatively common has '+', '-', '~' (AC symbol), 'A'. 'V', '$\Omega$'. It is commonly used in digital measuring instruments. I am pretty sure I saw a neon display years ago that displayed 1/8, 1/4, 3/8. 1/2. 5/8. 3/4, 7/8. I don;t know if each of those was separate cathodr, or if there were seaprate cathodes for the 4 psible numerators, 3 possible denominators and the slash. However, I can't think of a gas that will give a green glow. As you want to be able to turn it on and off quickly, you want a gasm,, not a metal that has to vapourise. Any suggestions. -tony > > I've never seen one, though. While that doesn't prove much, I've never > even heard of one, either, so they can't be all that common. > > > Green displays are either incandescents with green filters, or more > > likely vacuum-fluorescent. > > Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified > as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope). Jsut to make thing difficult, I'ev seen an incandescent 7 degment display (each segment being a filament) in a flat package with no obvious exhaustion tube/seal.It looked a lot like an LED display package. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 15:15:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:15:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50652054.6080603@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 27, 12 11:58:12 pm Message-ID: > Yes, one can put a green filter over a Nixie tube. Then you'd > have...surprise! A Nixie tube with a green filter, not a "green Nixie > tube". Some nixie tubes (small 'n', I ahve no idea who made them) had an orange envelope, preu=suambly to increase contrast. IIRC there is a green line in the neon spectrum, but it is weak. I guess you could try filtering out everything else and make a very dim green nixie tube that way. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 15:31:21 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:31:21 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <5065F890.9030607@brouhaha.com> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> <5065F890.9030607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50660919.60407@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 1:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > It doesn't need it, as far as you think the phone is just a phone. > > Actually it does. GSM, CDMA, etc. require more significantly more > processing power than was available in a minicomputer in the 1970s. While I started this topic mostly about all the features a cell phone have extra, just what is meant by processing power here. Bigger address space? Faster data streams? Number crunching? Memory access speed? Ben. PS: If you want to talk more, give me all call* * As soon as I can find more string and the other soup can. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 15:43:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:43:52 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50660C08.1080502@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 03:17 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Has anyone come up with a method of rebuilding failed Nixie tubes yet? > That would interest me a lot more than somehow changing the display > color. Given that people have been able to fabricate entire tubes in > their own shop/lab now, it seems like it would only be a matter of time > before someone figures out how to do the same with Nixie tubes. It has been done. A friend of mine on the lasers list built one: http://www.imajeenyus.com/vacuum/20110310_text_discharge_tube/index.shtml There have been more complex examples than this, and while this isn't strictly a Nixie tube, it's moving in that direction. I know I've seen complete homebrew Nixie tubes online in the past few years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 15:45:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:45:32 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking >> specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) > > Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of > consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3 > things tht used them. I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in consumer electronics here, as well as electronic test equipment like HP signal generators, etc. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 16:00:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:00:56 -0400 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 04:14 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have >>>> to contain I wonder?) >>> >>> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, >>> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the >>> decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode >>> erosion though. >> >> Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in >> single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. > > Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine > which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence > is different, you're not discharging through the gas, and the lower > pressure will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I imagine/hope it > would at least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build > a barrier that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy > electrons. But I'm probably overthinking it. I don't remember how the halogen cycle works in those bulbs...you probably do; would that not address the corrosion issue in that case? > Surely there is another > element that will emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum? Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than the red/orange lines. Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not enough intensity there to be useful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 16:10:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:10:53 -0400 Subject: new member In-Reply-To: <1348853225.39947.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348636511.46242.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20120926232029.478e7046.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20120926181007.I50701@shell.lmi.net> <1348760872.42407.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50649B89.7030406@neurotica.com> <1348853225.39947.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5066125D.6010003@neurotica.com> On 09/28/2012 01:27 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Further, there's a commercial furnace on her workbench in those photos. There's very little that's home-made there. (except her chips of course) > > C: I'd have to look. If it has newer bells and whistles, current monitoring, pyrometer, etc., ok it's no longer old world. But the guts of the furnace still are likely, unless it was made of fancy Ytong blocks or something. You are giving off the impression that to be involved in serious work, a piece of equipment has to be brand new and full of whiz-bang bells and whistles. If you ARE in fact under this impression, I suggest you visit a few working labs. This really isn't how things are. It's also not the case that "home" automatically means "old discarded garbage". Some people are willing to invest in quality tools, as I'm sure you are quite aware. >> She has an intrepid nature I grant, and my hats off to her. >> But it stands to be seen whether she'll break new ground. > > She HAS broken new ground...she's made transistors and integrated circuits in a home lab. As far as breaking new ground in semiconductor physics, well, that's not the goal. Even she doesn't have enough funding for that. > > C: So her methods are all that different from the way the first experimental transistors or fets were made? Something tells me no. Being that this knowledge has been around for a long time, it's hard to see how she's breaking ground. It's still a transistor after all. > These "kids" coming up with, in a manner of speaking only, innovation, is fantastic. I'm not knocking it. But is it really new at all? Yes! A person built transistors and ICs in their home. Is the impact of that really lost on you? Seriously? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 16:17:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:17:13 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5063F714.8010900@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <50635EA1.3040909@gmail.com> <50637A4E.9090509@neurotica.com> <5063F714.8010900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506613D9.2080603@neurotica.com> On 09/27/2012 02:49 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >>> Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a Sun Ultra-60 >>> which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes >>> around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator. >>> The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and >>> 64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its >>> un-usable.... >> Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far from >> fair, but...What's the config of the U60? > > I thought this was flame war and advocacy, and "fair" had gone out of > the window... Hardly. > ... but I didn't realize it was 15 years old. Actually 13, introduced in 1999. > I think it only has 600 MB of RAM, but its a dual 450 with a 15k disk > from an IBM server and of course Hercules won't compile with Sun Studio.. I got it compiled with Sun Studio a couple of years ago. But either way, GCC is well known to have performance issues, especially on that platform. Also either way, the RAM is your limitation there. Solaris is not a small, lightweight desktop OS. > .. I keep it because its sometimes more nostalgic nice to have a slow > mainframe. To be fair the PC I use is a 4-core 23Ghz i5 with 12 gb of > RAM so its pretty slick. Yes. It only took Intel twenty years to get serious about it, but they finally figured out how to get decent performance out of their archaic architecture. I have an i7 here, and I'm impressed by its performance. That's saying something, as I have NEVER before this been impressed with the performance of any x86-family processor, all the way back to the 8086. It still doesn't come anywhere near the performance of some of the big Suns here, but then I don't want an 1100lb rack as my desktop machine, either. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 16:23:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 14:23:58 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5066156E.5000607@sydex.com> On 09/28/2012 12:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. And _I_ would call that a 'nixie' tube (generic use), but not a > 'Nixie' tube (trademark use) :-) One of the oddities of Chinese technical language seems to be the use of the term "Nixie tube" for any seven-segment display. There are a couple of Chinese patents that use this terminology and they involve LEDs. Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a "hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not synonymous with vacuum cleaner and can refer to the appliance, the president of that name or the dam on the lower Colorado river. In particular, my copy of "De Re Metallica" is an English translation by Lou and Herbert Hoover. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 28 16:42:46 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:42:46 +0000 Subject: 11/05, paper tape, RL01... PEP-70 upgrade (11/70) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/27/12 10:56 PM, "Ian King" wrote: >On 9/26/12 9:26 PM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > >>On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:49 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> Of the below, the items were in Seattle, WA. The "heavy stuff" is >>>already >>> gone, but the 11/05, small parts, and pep-70 are confirmed as still >>> available. Who is in Seattle? >> >>I'm interested in the pep-70, but I'm far from Seattle. >> >>-ethan >> >> > >I'd be interested in the PEP-70 (for LCM) and I'm IN Seattle! We have one >in our running 11/70 and I'd love to have a spare. Details? Hm, maybe >the 11/05 as well, but that would be for me - the Museum already has some. > :-) -- Ian > > Sorry, meant to send this privately. - Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 28 17:04:18 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 23:04:18 +0100 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <5065ED49.809@vaxen.net> References: <5065ED49.809@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50661EE2.3080603@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/09/2012 19:32, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 9/28/12 1:17 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an >> urban legend. The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't >> imagine any container in a household that wouldn't provide a >> sufficiently rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a >> thing! > > A common canning jar is smooth enough to superheat "soft" water. > Personal experience, trip to the opthamologist, etc... I once got superheated coffee in my favourite mug. I mis-set the timer, and although I thought the mug handle seemed unusually hot when I took it out, it wasn't until I added the sugar that I found out why. That was very messy. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Sep 28 17:30:13 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:30:13 -0500 Subject: pig in a blanket In-Reply-To: <1348859317.84679.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348859317.84679.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've always wanted a Franklin ACE. I love the wooden case. I recently acquired a Northstar Horizon S-100 system which has a wood cover. Although, it's in really rough shape. http://www.vintage-computer.com/northstarhorizon.shtml There is a guy across the street that does wood-working. I am thinking about removing the innards, taking it over, and having him make a nice look replacement cover for it. (Hanging on to the original, of course). Garrett Meiers On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/franklin_pc8000.html > > that's what it made me think of. Sorry, cluttering up the list again. > From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Sep 28 17:50:15 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:50:15 -0500 Subject: Commodore/Amiga 23 pin connectors In-Reply-To: <4DBDECD9AEEB4C808CEA95D86851B43E@tababook> References: <4DBDECD9AEEB4C808CEA95D86851B43E@tababook> Message-ID: Why not just buy a DB-23 connector and Hood? http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/cabled/05CQPDB23.html Seems like far less work than chopping one up. Not that it's something I wouldn't do.... For a late-night hack to get something working.. But honestly, I had never even thought about doing that to one of these. But if you're not in a rush, I'd go for a real connector and hood if you don't have one laying around. The link above has connectors, hoods, Garrett Meiers On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > =A0Will I be successful in cutting down a 25 pin plastic receptacle and >>> dro= >>> >> > Sure, I've did it for ages. http://www.tabalabs.com.br/** > amiga/adaptador_rgb/ > From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Sep 28 17:57:55 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 17:57:55 -0500 Subject: While on the subject of keyboard pr0n In-Reply-To: References: <20120927174130.M34486@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: Not sure if I asked this before -- but was curious (since we're on the subject of Keyboards) if anybody had any spare Xerox 820 keyboards, or parts, laying around. I need to fix the right control key on my keyboard for my Xerox 820. Although the keyboard is still functional without it, since it also has a left control key -- cosmetically, I'd like to fix it. Keyboard looks like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/489067/test/20120706_170305.jpg Keyswitch looks like this: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/489067/test/20120709_154136.jpg The PCB and switches are made by maxi-switch. Part number for the keyboard PCB assembly is 630107-02. No idea what the keys are. Thanks for any leads on a replacment switch, or even whole keyboard for this. Garrett Meiers On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:21 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 8:53 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:44 PM, wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:24:52 +0100, Dave Caroline wrote > >>> > >> > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_05_01_PET_Computer/P4300018.JPG > >>> > >>> I added the later keyboard on a hinged plate and added a function key > >>> set from something > >>> obtained from a surplus shop can anybody identify the upper set of > keys? > >> > >> Second item here: http://ferretronix.com/march/mystery/ > > > > I think I started with a complete one too now I see that picture > > I wonder if there is any more of it left in the loft? > > Yes the empty case is still here! > Some information from the identity plate :- > Equip model No > 74100903-007 > Serial No > KA23993 > > I suppose all it is useful for now is a blinkenlights machine:) > > Dave Caroline > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 28 18:05:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:05:50 -0700 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <50661EE2.3080603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5065ED49.809@vaxen.net> <50661EE2.3080603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <50662D4E.3020601@sydex.com> On 09/28/2012 03:04 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I once got superheated coffee in my favourite mug. I mis-set the timer, > and although I thought the mug handle seemed unusually hot when I took > it out, it wasn't until I added the sugar that I found out why. That > was very messy. That's how I learned to make microwave tea with the teabag in the water before the cup goes into the mouth of the beast, instead of after. One other microwave-related burn was microwaving a cup of potato-leek instant soup-in-a-paper cup. I miscalculated the temperature and involuntarily squeezed the cup when I pulled it out of the oven. My face was an ugly mess (not that it isn't usually) for a couple of weeks after that. I've since made it a rule not to microwave soups, noodles, etc. in the cups that are part of the packaging. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 18:35:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 19:35:14 -0400 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <50661EE2.3080603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5065ED49.809@vaxen.net> <50661EE2.3080603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Sep 28, 2012, at 6:04 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I once got superheated coffee in my favourite mug. I mis-set the timer, > and although I thought the mug handle seemed unusually hot when I took > it out, it wasn't until I added the sugar that I found out why. That > was very messy. Further confirming my bias towards cold, black coffee. :-) - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 20:20:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pig in a blanket Message-ID: <1348881644.96432.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I dont know what an Ace is. What I thought I posted was a link to a PC 8000 in a wood cubby. ------------------------------ On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 3:30 PM PDT Garrett Meiers wrote: >I've always wanted a Franklin ACE. I love the wooden case. I >recently acquired a Northstar Horizon S-100 system which has a wood cover. > Although, it's in really rough shape. > >http://www.vintage-computer.com/northstarhorizon.shtml > >There is a guy across the street that does wood-working. I am thinking >about removing the innards, taking it over, and having him make a nice look >replacement cover for it. (Hanging on to the original, of course). > >Garrett Meiers > > > > >On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/franklin_pc8000.html >> >> that's what it made me think of. Sorry, cluttering up the list again. >> From richardlynch3 at verizon.net Fri Sep 28 20:43:02 2012 From: richardlynch3 at verizon.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:43:02 -0500 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: <40529EE9E80F44C2B014D7105F410C76@tababook> Message-ID: On 9/28/12 12:57 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal program >> running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The cursor (>) >> will appear and you're ready to go. > > Does LRLRUDUDABAB works on that too? :oO (konami code hehehe) :oD Huh? From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Sep 28 21:02:23 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:02:23 -0500 Subject: pig in a blanket In-Reply-To: <1348881644.96432.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348881644.96432.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Your post about the PC 8000 by Franklin just reminded me that I always wanted an Franklin Ace. The PC 8000 is neat, and I must say I've never knew Franklin made an 8088. Garrett Meiers On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I dont know what an Ace is. What I thought I posted was a link to a PC > 8000 in a wood cubby. > ------------------------------ > On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 3:30 PM PDT Garrett Meiers wrote: > > >I've always wanted a Franklin ACE. I love the wooden case. I > >recently acquired a Northstar Horizon S-100 system which has a wood > cover. > > Although, it's in really rough shape. > > > >http://www.vintage-computer.com/northstarhorizon.shtml > > > >There is a guy across the street that does wood-working. I am thinking > >about removing the innards, taking it over, and having him make a nice > look > >replacement cover for it. (Hanging on to the original, of course). > > > >Garrett Meiers > > > > > > > > > >On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Chris Tofu < > rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>wrote: > > > >> http://www.oldcomputermuseum.com/franklin_pc8000.html > >> > >> that's what it made me think of. Sorry, cluttering up the list again. > >> > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 22:04:30 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 23:04:30 -0400 Subject: Microwave sink In-Reply-To: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> References: <5065EE8F.3020009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an urban >> legend. The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't imagine >> any container in a household that wouldn't provide a sufficiently >> rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a thing! > > Nope, it's real. It happened to me with a glazed mug about 15 years > ago. I touched the mug and it virtually detonated. Fortunately it > wasn't very full, but it still hurt. I had an incident a few weeks ago at work - I was heating water for tea in an ordinary (and somewhat new) ceramic coffee mug. I bumped it getting it out (the microwave is on a shelf over the sink and above my eye-level) and it roiled furiously with a whooshing hiss. No major splashing or injury, but I was a bit startled. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 28 22:15:27 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:15:27 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <50660919.60407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> <5065F890.9030607@brouhaha.com> <50660919.60407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <506667CF.1000208@brouhaha.com> On 9/28/2012 1:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Actually it does. GSM, CDMA, etc. require more significantly more > processing power than was available in a minicomputer in the 1970s. On 09/28/2012 02:31 PM, ben wrote: > just what is meant by processing power here. > Bigger address space? Faster data streams? Number crunching? > Memory access speed? All of the above. Possibly a 64KB address space might just barely suffice for the most minimal GSM cell phone imaginable, but not for any product that actually exists. My first cell phone back in 1995, using the now-obsolete IS136 TDMA air interface, used significantly more memory than that. From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 22:29:25 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 03:29:25 +0000 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: References: <40529EE9E80F44C2B014D7105F410C76@tababook> Message-ID: <814529535-1348889367-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-876648295-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> I believe what we're experiencing here is what they call a generational gap. J/k My blackberry also suggested perhaps I meant "gene rational". Boy do they know their market. Alexandre decided your boot method sounds a lot like an NES cheat code. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Lynch Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:43:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer On 9/28/12 12:57 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal program >> running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The cursor (>) >> will appear and you're ready to go. > > Does LRLRUDUDABAB works on that too? :oO (konami code hehehe) :oD Huh? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 22:39:43 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:39:43 -0600 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <506667CF.1000208@brouhaha.com> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <908F1909A9554A8AB89F126660C2A210@tababook> <5065F890.9030607@brouhaha.com> <50660919.60407@jetnet.ab.ca> <506667CF.1000208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50666D7F.10605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 9:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Possibly a 64KB address space might just barely suffice for the most > minimal GSM cell phone imaginable, but not for any product that actually > exists. My first cell phone back in 1995, using the now-obsolete IS136 > TDMA air interface, used significantly more memory than that. Well I guess that just leaves two cpu sizes. Small 1 chippers under 64Kb of memory, or full blown systems. Ben. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Fri Sep 28 22:42:24 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 20:42:24 -0700 Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: References: <40529EE9E80F44C2B014D7105F410C76@tababook> Message-ID: <008401cd9df4$70c7dd60$52579820$@comcast.net> Here is a photo of a Data I/O 29B, the replacement for the Model 19. Press the blue "Select" key followed by the "F" and "1" key. Press "Start" and the programmer enables the serial port. All of the operations of the programmer can be controlled by a computer or terminal. (The Model 29 may require two presses of the Start Key.) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Data_IO_29B_UniPak_2.jpg The Computer Remote Control App Note can be found here: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dataIO/ Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lynch Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 6:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer On 9/28/12 12:57 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal >> program running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The >> cursor (>) will appear and you're ready to go. > > Does LRLRUDUDABAB works on that too? :oO (konami code hehehe) :oD Huh? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Sep 28 23:09:30 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 21:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone got a Wombat? Message-ID: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 28 23:16:37 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 23:16:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Getting Data I/O Promlink to talk to a System 19 programmer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Richard Lynch wrote: > On 9/28/12 12:57 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> On 9/28/2012 5:15 AM, Richard Lynch wrote: >> >>> I use Promlink 3.4 with my System 19. After I start the terminal >>> program running on the PC, I push SELECT, F, 1, START on the 19. The >>> cursor (>) will appear and you're ready to go. >> >> Does LRLRUDUDABAB works on that too? :oO (konami code hehehe) :oD > > Huh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Code ...except that he got the code wrong ;P From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 28 23:22:16 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:22:16 -0600 Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50667778.50900@jetnet.ab.ca> On 9/28/2012 10:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? > I think we had a bunch generic apple clones here. Back then I wanted to get a 6809 kit, but they only had hardware, no software to go with it. Ben. From pye at mactec.com.au Fri Sep 28 23:33:10 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:33:10 +1000 Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> On 29/09/2012, at 2:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? I've got one in Australia.. They were quite common here, along with many other clones. Chris From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Sep 29 04:18:48 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 11:18:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Monsanto IC datasheet request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, William Donzelli wrote: > I found some strange ICs from Monsanto. They are type MQL105, in > original Monsanto packaging. I can find no datasheets on the net (one > site mentions the chip, but says scans would be "difficult"). > > Oddly, the datecodes on the chips have been erased at the factory. These chips must be genetically modified and cancerogenous like their corn ;-) Christian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 29 07:33:06 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:33:06 +0200 Subject: HP 7580B A0 plotter has to go Message-ID: <001f01cd9e3e$972cf7c0$c586e740$@xs4all.nl> I've a HP 7580A A0 plotter which has to go, I need the space for a HP 1000 rack and it's to huge to put in the attic. I'm open for offers, any reasonable offer will do, if no one wants it I'll scrap it for parts. This includes pens manuals and other add-ons. I'm located in the Netherlands near Groningen. -Rik From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 29 09:14:46 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 07:14:46 -0700 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> References: , , <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com>, , <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ----snip---- > > Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the > existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than > the red/orange lines. > > Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating > somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not > enough intensity there to be useful. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Hi Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2, There were no green lines. There was a yellow and as I recall 2 reds but no green. I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal discharge color. Dwight From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 09:47:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:47:49 -0400 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com> <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9BCA01BC-36C7-40C8-9EC9-2E594BA86210@gmail.com> On Sep 29, 2012, at 10:14, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2, > There were no green lines. There was a yellow and > as I recall 2 reds but no green. > I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal > discharge color. I seem to recall that the nixies with orange filters on them have them because of the effects of the secondary gases (argon, mercury, etc.) that are present as ionization accelerants. Presumably the ones which require filters have a higher concentration of said gases? - Dave From jaquinn2001 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 02:01:27 2012 From: jaquinn2001 at gmail.com (Andrew Quinn) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 19:01:27 +1200 Subject: PDP 11/03 (australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would be interested depending on where in Australia it might be. On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:02 PM, Jay West wrote: > PDP 11/03 available in australia, contact me off-list if interested. > > J > > From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 08:00:19 2012 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:00:19 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> Message-ID: Alexandre and William I am curator , Jose Carlos Valle, 65 , I collect any kind of computers, My Museum still closet, but, very soon be will open again. I have in my warehouse, 3 PDP 11, with some Data products printers with drums., decwriter 6 pcs etc. 1 B500 Burroughs, some tabulators like Remington Rand, IBM 1401, 1403, Univacs, etc 2012/9/27 Alexandre Souza - Listas > wdonzelli at gmail.com> -- * * * * * * https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 08:07:55 2012 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:07:55 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> Message-ID: By the way, take a look of my website: www.museudocomputador.com.br next month I will upload a new with 3D etc. Take a look at youtube : museu do Computador it is me in many TVs in Brazil. I have more them 10.000 pcs in my warehouses. AppleI, AppleII,Newton, Amiga Vic20, 64, Amigas, osbornes, Kaypro, 5.000 books about tech. 2012/9/27 Jose carlos Valle > Alexandre and William > I am curator , Jose Carlos Valle, 65 , I collect any kind of computers, My > Museum still closet, but, very soon be will open again. > I have in my warehouse, 3 PDP 11, with some Data products printers with > drums., decwriter 6 pcs etc. > 1 B500 Burroughs, some tabulators like Remington Rand, IBM 1401, 1403, > Univacs, etc > > 2012/9/27 Alexandre Souza - Listas > >> wdonzelli at gmail.com> > > > > > -- > * > * > * > * > * > * > > https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 > > -- * * * * * * https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 08:16:16 2012 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 10:16:16 -0300 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> <9CA0F11762B5441EB3AF395FD8C8FA0A@tababook> Message-ID: Alexandre and William I have 2.000 square meters, and another warehouse with 500 square meters. I have space enough to keep any sise of computers, I am ln Itapecerica da Serra, SP, close Sao Paulo, Capital. I am technician since 60's, 50 years in TI, I speech about history of computers, I will send you some photos. I collect pcs since 1998. At Comdex fair, since 1999. my phones> 11 4666 7545 - 11 9.8874-0100 claro ate Jose Carlos Valle 2012/9/27 Jose carlos Valle > By the way, take a look of my website: www.museudocomputador.com.br > next month I will upload a new with 3D etc. > Take a look at youtube : museu do Computador it is me in many TVs in > Brazil. > I have more them 10.000 pcs in my warehouses. AppleI, AppleII,Newton, > Amiga Vic20, 64, Amigas, osbornes, Kaypro, > 5.000 books about tech. > > > 2012/9/27 Jose carlos Valle > >> Alexandre and William >> I am curator , Jose Carlos Valle, 65 , I collect any kind of computers, >> My Museum still closet, but, very soon be will open again. >> I have in my warehouse, 3 PDP 11, with some Data products printers with >> drums., decwriter 6 pcs etc. >> 1 B500 Burroughs, some tabulators like Remington Rand, IBM 1401, 1403, >> Univacs, etc >> >> 2012/9/27 Alexandre Souza - Listas >> >>> wdonzelli at gmail.com> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> * >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 >> >> > > > -- > * > * > * > * > * > * > > https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 > > -- * * * * * * https://picasaweb.google.com/106104991898610117718/Desktop#5762470482731194978 From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Sep 27 10:10:02 2012 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 16:10:02 +0100 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> References: <171825E877FB4968B077D9DB2816302C@tababook> Message-ID: >>>> Subject: Re: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) > it blongs in a museum! In my humble opinion, it must be parted in 5 2-rack kits, and distribuited among brazilian USERS. This is something VERY VERY VERY RARE in Brazil, there is no why to keep a system this size locked behind a glass wall. <<<< >From the picture it looks like the left hand 6 racks form a primary system and its backup (3 racks each) and the four to the right are probably 3 identical ?process control? (non-general purpoe) setups. Thus it will probably not realistically make 5x2 rack systems. The difference between the two left-hand systems is probably something to do with the switchover - in the picture the right hand one of the two is "live". The third rack from the right is the enigma in terms of configuration - It must be shared peripherals for the three single-rack processors but how it is switched between them is not fully clear other than that the top panel on this rack at least indicates the status and might do the switching. Are the row of grey cabinets (whatever they are) to the right part of the complete system and what about the mid-height communications cabinet (3 modems at the bottom?) between the 11s and the grey stuff? Pity that fish-eye lens (or, perhaps, the digitising) has lost focus or resolution or both. Andy From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Sep 27 10:23:20 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 11:23:20 -0400 Subject: PDP11 (brazil) In-Reply-To: <1348662230.10516.20.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <71246137-C74C-4C73-8563-D02DC38A1606@classiccmp.org> <1348662230.10516.20.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On 26 September 2012 08:23, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > Could the Edmonson expansion card be a printer interface ? > I'm going to guess, because I sure as heck don't have any experience with it, that the "Edmonson" expansion card is one of three things: 1. LP11 printer interface with a "thingy" between it and the ticket printer 2. A DR-11 parallel interface with some custom software 3. Wirewrap protoboard with custom interface built on it Potentially it could also be a "professionally made" third-party card, but again I have no idea. Cheers, Christian From pinball at telus.net Thu Sep 27 11:40:04 2012 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 09:40:04 -0700 Subject: Free SGI and other in Vancouver, BC In-Reply-To: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> References: <50602BCD.8020809@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <50648164.5040205@telus.net> Pontus wrote: > Hi > > A fellow over at the SGI forums has run into some problems and need to > let go of his entire collection pretty fast. > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16726942 > > I don't know the story, I don't know him outside of the forums but > there are some really nice machines (even DEC) in there for a person > with some storage space and a big car. > > Regards, > Pontus. > I am located in Vancouver, BC, but have no interest in this collection at this time, however there are two options: 1) I could pick it up and then ship off to someone that actually wants it (I have a 3/4 ton van and lots of storage), or 2) remind the guy there is an organization called Free Geeks in our area that accepts computer gear. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Sep 28 08:40:16 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 09:40:16 -0400 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <50650BB2.9070804@neurotica.com> <71420F1D7960498A99D58DCAC35FC83B@tababook> <50655FDF.8050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 28 September 2012 04:29, ben wrote: > But why does a phone need it? The answer of course is "So one can emulate said machines on one's phone". Not that many people do that... Cheers, Christian From custommachine at suddenlinkmail.com Fri Sep 28 15:37:34 2012 From: custommachine at suddenlinkmail.com (Tom Stephens) Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2012 16:37:34 -0400 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <20061216143745.5c57ba51@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: I have a TI 960B computer complete for sale. Are you interested ? From david at hheng.plus.com Fri Sep 28 18:39:33 2012 From: david at hheng.plus.com (David Humphries) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 00:39:33 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/50 (ireland) References: Message-ID: <007001cd9dd2$838559e0$1403a8c0@HHE8> Hi, I think this has gone as I have recently aquired a 11/50 and 3 crates of spares ,bourght on ebay from Galway , see also http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?32031-Pdp-11-50 Now there may still be a 11/45 out there somewhere as is evidence that the origonal system, a SABINA flight simulator , also had a 11/45, the pics in the above link show a 45 in on photo and a 50 , the one I got, in another. If someone out there has this when I have the bezel for it! Also with the "haul" was a 7 foot rack with a TI 980 and 3 card frames of custom cards, I think this was the video generation system. I am a new member and will post a "hello" soon, tonights job is to try and power up the 50 without putting all the lights out !, thats happend most times so far. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:03 AM Subject: PDP-11/50 (ireland) > PDP-11/50 and "three crates" of spares available in Galway, Ireland. > Please contact me off-list if interested. > > J > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5294 - Release Date: 09/27/12 > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Sep 29 11:43:48 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:43:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Old UNIX utils Message-ID: I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. Does anyone here remember using these when they were new/actually useful? And speaking of ta, the presenter wasn't sure how you're supposed to drive it - it is supposedly 'like troff -a' but no matter what input he gave it (man page sources mostly), all he ever got out of it is 'unknown input character blah'. Alexey From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Sep 29 12:09:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:09:23 -0400 Subject: ROFLSCALE - Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> Message-ID: <50672B43.5070200@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/09/12 12:57 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote: >> On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote: >>>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>>> A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively >>>>> static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a >>>>> rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs >>>>> of RAM... >>>>... > There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for > such a small task without some other background motive. A Socket 7 based > machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of ram can even handle > serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while running modern > software (BSD or Linux and Apache). Such a system could handle 1K hits/minute. --T > I'm not sure I'd try it today with a > 486 based system... From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Sep 29 12:23:11 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:23:11 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120929172310.GA20464@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 06:10:14PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote: > > >>>>>>Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per > >>>>>>day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. > >>>>>>What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of > >>>>>>RAM... > > > >>There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that > >>large for such a small task without some other background > >>motive. > > > >I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really > >understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want > >a webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" > >and find a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of > >server-side computation (which, to be fair, is what a lot of > >people think of "a webserver" as doing). Or they ask a friend who > >doesn't know the load in question and answers hurriedly. Or, with > >slightly more competence, they find a wide spectrum of answers and > >figure they don't know what's actually needed and err on the side > >of extra power. > > It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've > seen someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they > could use it for their own purposes. Oh yes .. > Machines that large are not exactly commodity items, even today. Machines of that size are easily aquired today from your hardware vendor of choice. > >Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page > >be served with sub-second delay or some such silliness. > > Even a one second delay while serving static content -is- a problem. > Each such delay adds to the total page load time, and it adds up in > a hurry. > > A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory > (1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap > is available (and you aren't running BIND). I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For rather small zones, admittedly. > As much as I actually > like the i486 arch (power efficiency, among other things), a 486 > based system will simply not have enough physical memory available > (generally no more than 32MB) and it would craw to a halt with a > modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to disc while serving up > pages via Apache. It doesn't have to be apache, even though that is kind of the default. For instance lighttpd works just fine if all you want is to serve a bunch of static pages and don't need any fancy tricks (like URL rewriting ...). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 29 12:39:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 10:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <50667778.50900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50667778.50900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120929103223.G71900@shell.lmi.net> On 9/28/2012 10:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? Apple's lawyers jumped on anything with "similar" ROMs, nevertheless: Basis Franklin Ace? Laser 128? (marketed by Central Point) Apple emulators on ISA cards: Trakstar (eventually marketed by RS) Dimension had an Apple board in their machine Quadram Quadlink (more than 70% DOA, including "tested" replacements, at least one of which had connector improperly installed, so that it could NOT have been tested) From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 29 13:24:35 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:24:35 -0500 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's a nice pic, but I wish there was more detail. I don't see a DT03 or DT07 bus switch, could the top of racks 3 and 8 be PC05s? Does the table on the left have disk packs on it? Paul On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Jay West wrote: > Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. > Still sitting in the datacenter..... > > http://www.ezwind.net/brazil > > DECporn at it's best. > > J > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 13:31:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:31:21 -0400 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: , , <5065E716.2070808@neurotica.com>, , <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50673E79.9010804@neurotica.com> On 09/29/2012 10:14 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the >> existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than >> the red/orange lines. >> >> Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating >> somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not >> enough intensity there to be useful. > > Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2, > There were no green lines. There was a yellow and > as I recall 2 reds but no green. > I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal > discharge color. Neon does in fact emit at least one green line, at 540.1nm. There may be others but that's the one I recall offhand. As I mentioned they are very dim compared to the red and orange lines. You should be able to see that line in the output from an NE2 if you look very carefully. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Sep 29 13:50:01 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:50:01 -0400 Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <20120929103223.G71900@shell.lmi.net> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50667778.50900@jetnet.ab.ca> <20120929103223.G71900@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <506742D9.4040805@verizon.net> On 09/29/2012 01:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On 9/28/2012 10:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? > Apple's lawyers jumped on anything with "similar" ROMs, nevertheless: > > Basis > Franklin Ace? > Laser 128? (marketed by Central Point) > > > Apple emulators on ISA cards: > Trakstar (eventually marketed by RS) I have one of thpose apple in an IAS box adaptor boards. Mine has two 6502s on it. I should power up my ISA box and try it some day. Need a roundtuit first. Allison > Dimension had an Apple board in their machine > Quadram Quadlink (more than 70% DOA, including "tested" replacements, at > least one of which had connector improperly installed, so that it could > NOT have been tested) > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 29 14:48:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:48:54 -0600 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506750A6.8010803@brouhaha.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of > SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently > discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that > most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed > over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, Wow! bfs can handle files up to 1024 Kbytes, and up to 512 characters per line! Amazing! > and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. Sun (now Oracle) is slow to remove things because customers might actually be using them. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:30:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:30:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 28, 12 08:14:57 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have > >>> to contain I wonder?) > >> > >> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, > >> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures is in fac the glass fluorescing. > >> decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode > >> erosion though. > > > > Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in > > single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. > > Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine > which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence is I thought most tungsetn halogen lamps used iodine. > different, you're not discharging through the gas, and the lower pressure That is quite big differnece. Having an ionised plasma is very differnt from having a gas. > will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I imagine/hope it would at > least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build a barrier > that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy electrons. But > I'm probably overthinking it. Surely there is another element that will > emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum? Well, I am sure there are metalic vapours that do (barium?) but of course such lamps normall start with some other gas (neon, argon) and the heat from that discharge vaporisses the metal. Think of the sodium street lapmps. They start off growing red -- that's neon.. You get the yellow sodium light only after the metal has vaporised. I don;t think, therefore, that a metal vapour would be suitable for a nixie tube. S am sdubious about Ne/Kr mixtures. I can find no refernece to these giving a green glow, does somebody have a reliable reference for this? Ofte nKr87 was added to the enon gass in gass discharge displays, it's mildly radioactive and helps ionisation of the neon. And such displays glow orannge. Of course the compostiion may well make a difference to the colour, but I am tryign to think of a physcial mechanism to get green ligth from said mixture... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:34:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:34:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 12 04:45:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking > >> specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) > > > > Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of > > consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3 > > things tht used them. > > I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in I am suprised, given that most consumer devices come from companies that sell worldwide, adn wil lre-use modules/designs wherever psosible. Sonsumre devices here often have VF displays (which are often blue-green, althoguth I have seen one (on a Philips unit?_) that was almost the same colour as a green LED, and could easily be confused with it [1])) Red LED displays are common too, as are LCDs backlit in various ways. [1] I can tell the difference. I've been inside the device too, and I have the service manaul. No way is it an LED. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:39:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:39:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50661008.6040708@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 28, 12 05:00:56 pm Message-ID: > I don't remember how the halogen cycle works in those bulbs...you > probably do; would that not address the corrosion issue in that case? My understanding is that te the tempearture of the envelope, the halogen reacts with any tungsten that may have evaporated there and forms a volatile tungsten halide. This then ends up on the filalend where it is decomposed by the heighter temperature there and the tungsten metal re-depositied o nthe filament. That's why a quartz envelope is used. It has to get hot. > > > Surely there is another > > element that will emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum? > > Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the > existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than > the red/orange lines. Indded. I jokingly suggestrd coating a nixie (or Nixie) tube in a suitable filter varnish :-). It would be very dim. > > Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating > somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not > enough intensity there to be useful. Yes. Green neons are common, but have phosphor-coated envelopes. I;ve also seen blue ones, made similarly. There are gasses with strong blue emission lines, but I guess they're more expensive and/or need a higher voltage to ionise them than neon. If there is a gas that will glow green, I guess it's something that's either exotic, or somethign that attacks the electrodes far too fast. I've never seen a true green gas discharge lamp. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:45:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:45:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5066156E.5000607@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 28, 12 02:23:58 pm Message-ID: > One of the oddities of Chinese technical language seems to be the use of > the term "Nixie tube" for any seven-segment display. There are a couple > of Chinese patents that use this terminology and they involve LEDs. Eek!. COnsidering the true Nixie tubes were not segemneted, that seems a vey odd usage. > > Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a > "hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not Ture. But at least the Hoover company did make vacuum cleaners (or 'Electric Suction Sweepers' :-)), and genuine Hoover-brand oens were, and still are common. I can understand usign the term 'nixie tube' as a generic name for a formed-chracter (not segmented) gas discharge display, even if it wasn't made by Boroughs. But not using the term ofr other types of gas discharge display (e.g Panaplex), LEDs, VF displays, etc. -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 29 15:24:48 2012 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:24:48 +0200 Subject: pdp(s) in brazil (picture) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It's a nice pic, but I wish there was more detail. I don't see a DT03 > or DT07 bus switch, could the top of racks 3 and 8 be PC05s? > > Does the table on the left have disk packs on it? > > Paul > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Keep in mind.... this setup was just decomissioned in the last 30 days. >> Still sitting in the datacenter..... >> >> http://www.ezwind.net/brazil >> >> DECporn at it's best. >> >> J >> > Does not look to PC05's to me. What does bug me a bit is the unusual panel above the consoles of the 3 rightmost consoles. It looks like it is a single panel? And what about the panels with the red/yellow lights/buttons? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. Zeg NEE tegen de 'slimme' meter. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 15:28:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:28:02 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506759D2.9080200@neurotica.com> On 09/29/2012 03:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking >>>> specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) >>> >>> Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of >>> consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3 >>> things tht used them. >> >> I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in > > I am suprised, given that most consumer devices come from companies that > sell worldwide, adn wil lre-use modules/designs wherever psosible. > > Sonsumre devices here often have VF displays (which are often blue-green, > althoguth I have seen one (on a Philips unit?_) that was almost the same > colour as a green LED, and could easily be confused with it [1])) Red LED > displays are common too, as are LCDs backlit in various ways. > > [1] I can tell the difference. I've been inside the device too, and I > have the service manaul. No way is it an LED. The HP 8657A signal generator comes to mind. Also, my microwave oven's clock is green LED. My bedside clock at home is as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 29 15:46:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120929134521.I74838@shell.lmi.net> > > Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a > > "hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not In some parts of the USA, "Hoover" was used to refer to JEdger, and meant unlawful guvmint surveillance From jws at jwsss.com Sat Sep 29 16:11:20 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:11:20 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506763F8.8030609@jwsss.com> On 9/29/2012 12:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a >> >"hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not > Ture. But at least the Hoover company did make vacuum cleaners (or > 'Electric Suction Sweepers' :-)), and genuine Hoover-brand oens were, and > still are common. The extent of my exposure to the UK domestic side these days are via the BBC series here on cable. One of them is Law and Order UK, an excellent adaptation of the US series. Anyway on one recent episode I did notice what appeared to be a shiny new stainless finish Hoover Oven or Microwave, and did wonder what else they had badged with the Hoover brand since here in the US it is pretty much vacuum cleaners. I couldn't see any other appliances in the scene, but they did have a very good closeup of the one appliance. Over here you see many different brands of things around houses from German, Korean, US and many others. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 29 16:36:07 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:36:07 -0700 Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120929134521.I74838@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120929134521.I74838@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <506769C7.1010907@sydex.com> On 09/29/2012 01:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > In some parts of the USA, "Hoover" was used to refer to JEdger, and meant > unlawful guvmint surveillance According to some, in other parts of the US, he was known as "Mary" . --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Sat Sep 29 17:03:43 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:03:43 -0400 Subject: NOS IC and vintage brds available Message-ID: <5067703F.3050505@att.net> Info links for someone looking to move some ICs and circuit boards without doing the EPAY thing. He dickers! This stuff was posted here a while back as images but I suggested he build a list. I acquired a couple of the boards and had no issues in dealing with him. No other interest except to pass on the info. YMMV! GO DIRECT HERE: Buddy Woodberry Available items list: _http://www.buddy-l.com/files/buddy's%20VINTAGE%20IC%20INVENTORY%208-19-12.pdf _ IC tubes http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd%201.JPG Circuit bd1 http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd2.JPG circuit bd 2 http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd3.JPG circuit bd 3 http://www.buddy-l.com/files/vac%20tube1.JPG From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 17:11:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 18:11:15 -0400 Subject: NOS IC and vintage brds available In-Reply-To: <5067703F.3050505@att.net> References: <5067703F.3050505@att.net> Message-ID: <50677203.7000501@neurotica.com> Mmmm, sure would like some of those Multibus-I boards! On 09/29/2012 06:03 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > Info links for someone looking to move some ICs and circuit boards > without doing the EPAY thing. He dickers! > > This stuff was posted here a while back as images but I suggested he > build a list. I acquired a couple of the boards and had no issues in > dealing with him. No other interest except to pass on the info. YMMV! > > GO DIRECT HERE: Buddy Woodberry > > Available items list: > > _http://www.buddy-l.com/files/buddy's%20VINTAGE%20IC%20INVENTORY%208-19-12.pdf > _ > > > IC tubes > > http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd%201.JPG > > Circuit bd1 > > http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd2.JPG > > circuit bd 2 > > http://www.buddy-l.com/files/circuit%20bd3.JPG > > circuit bd 3 > > http://www.buddy-l.com/files/vac%20tube1.JPG > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 29 18:20:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 16:20:29 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5067823D.5020606@sydex.com> On 09/28/2012 01:37 PM, Tom Stephens wrote: > I have a TI 960B computer complete for sale. Are you interested ? Hi Tom, It would help if we knew where you and the 960B were located! Thanks, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 30 00:13:16 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 05:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, >>>> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the > > Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my > father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he > claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures > is in fac the glass fluorescing. I'm basing this on the fact that the aurora glows red at high altitude and green at lower altitude. According to what I've read, the green glow comes from oxygen. Wikipedia (I know, not the most reliable source) says: > Oxygen is unusual in terms of its return to ground state: it can take > three quarters of a second to emit green light and up to two minutes to > emit red. Collisions with other atoms or molecules will absorb the > excitation energy and prevent emission. Because the very top of the > atmosphere has a higher percentage of oxygen and is sparsely distributed > such collisions are rare enough to allow time for oxygen to emit red. > Collisions become more frequent progressing down into the atmosphere, so > that red emissions do not have time to happen, and eventually even green > light emissions are prevented. Now that I think about it, it might be a bit tricky to build a nixie tube where the mean time to collision is on the order of a second :-\ Alexey From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 30 00:22:14 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 22:22:14 -0700 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:30:11 +0100 > > > > > On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > >> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > > >>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have > > >>> to contain I wonder?) > > >> > > >> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, > > >> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the > > Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my > father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he > claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures > is in fac the glass fluorescing. > Hi While the greenish color see is from the glass, oxygen does have a bluish green glow of its own. It can be seen in nebula like the veil nebula. It can seen in comets heads as they get impacted by particals from the sun. It is not the brightest of the colors that glow in the visibe band. Sodium yellow out shines most all of them. Dwight From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Sep 30 04:40:33 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 11:40:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Tom Stephens wrote: > I have a TI 960B computer complete for sale. Are you interested ? I also have a 960B. I am looking for any kind of software for it. Do you have / can make images of e.g. paper tapes etc. ? Christian From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 06:38:21 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 13:38:21 +0200 Subject: Microwave sink (was: Re: strange remark about your collection?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 September 2012 20:17, David Riley wrote: > > I was always under the impression that that sort of story was an urban > legend. I have often boiled water in the microwave; when I had a Norwegian fianc?e, she did not own a kettle & always boiled water in the microwave. (Electricity is *very* cheap there, as they have lots of hydroelectric plants.) The thing is, normally, the water just boils. > The physics isn't out of the question, I just can't imagine > any container in a household that wouldn't provide a sufficiently > rough surface to nucleate. Surprised to hear it's a thing! Almost any ordinary container has multiple nucleation points. Pour a fizzy drink into any household object; every chain of bubbles rising from the sides and bottom is coming from a nucleation point. In the case of water in a mug or something, it can get to a good few degrees over 100?C (sorry, I cannot fathom Fahrenheit & have no clue what boiling point is in it; I use SI units, like all sensible people) and thus when you drop in a teabag or a spoonful of coffee, *FOOM*, instant boiling and water all over the counter-top. But getting hot enough to become superheated? That I have /never/ seen, even when someone set the timer wrong and the container boiled dry. Now, if it was a /sealed/ container, a reasonably strong one, able to withstand a lot of pressure before it blew - OK. But an open vessel? No, I don't believe it. Even scrupulously clean laboratory glassware has lots of nucleation points; getting water to supercool or superheat without crystallising or boiling is actually quite hard to do. Supercooling is easier but still nontrivial; it can happen by accident, but rarely. Either way, the further the temperature goes past the normal phase-change temperature, the smaller the imperfection needed to start the transition. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 07:11:26 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 14:11:26 +0200 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 September 2012 18:43, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > And speaking of ta, the presenter wasn't sure how you're supposed to drive > it - it is supposedly 'like troff -a' but no matter what input he gave it > (man page sources mostly), all he ever got out of it is 'unknown input > character blah'. http://compgroups.net/comp.unix.solaris/what-is-the-ta-command/371925 Interesting stuff. I too am amused by a "big file scanner" that can handle a whole meg. Wooo... :) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 08:03:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:03:54 +0200 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? Message-ID: During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their backplates - and what might be ESDI controllers. I don't own any EISA machines any more and am not expecting to, so if nobody wants these, I will send them to recycling. Free for the cost of postage. Surface post to the USA/Canada/south America would not be /too/ prohibitive. They're currently in London. I've never had any interest in anything on the Vintage Computer boards & I don't think these are worth eBaying, but if anyone wants to disseminate this offer, please feel free - including my email and other contact details in the .sig. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Sep 30 09:03:43 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:03:43 +0100 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b901cd9f14$6b4504a0$41cf0de0$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone know if they are likely to work in a DEC 2000 Model 300 (Jensen)? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven > Sent: 30 September 2012 14:04 > To: Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? > > During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA controller > cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host adaptors - they have > high-density 50-pin connectors on their backplates - and what might be ESDI > controllers. > > I don't own any EISA machines any more and am not expecting to, so if > nobody wants these, I will send them to recycling. > > Free for the cost of postage. Surface post to the USA/Canada/south America > would not be /too/ prohibitive. They're currently in London. > > I've never had any interest in anything on the Vintage Computer boards & I > don't think these are worth eBaying, but if anyone wants to disseminate this > offer, please feel free - including my email and other contact details in the > .sig. > > > > -- > Liam Proven . Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk . GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com . Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 . Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 09:23:32 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 16:23:32 +0200 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: <00b901cd9f14$6b4504a0$41cf0de0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00b901cd9f14$6b4504a0$41cf0de0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 30 September 2012 16:03, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Does anyone know if they are likely to work in a DEC 2000 Model 300 > (Jensen)? Absolutely no clue, but I am happy to supply model numbers on my return home. (I am currently in Paris, flatsitting a listmember's flat and working on a stand at a Paris Fashion Week tradeshow while writing about Windows Server 2012. It's all go!) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 30 14:47:22 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 15:47:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? References: Message-ID: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:03 AM Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? > During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA > controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host > adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their > backplates - and what might be ESDI controllers. If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), video cards, or maybe a Targa 2000 let me know. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Sep 30 16:20:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 16:20:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, TeoZ wrote: > From: "Liam Proven" > >> During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA >> controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host >> adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their backplates >> - and what might be ESDI controllers. > > If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), The only caching controllers I remember for the EISA bus were made by BusTek/BusLogic, Promise Technologies, and Tekram, none of which were full length cards. It sounds more like an Adaptec AHA-1740A/1742A/1744 EISA SCSI card. The 174x is an interesting design, but for actual use today, a 1540CP/1542CP (high density 50-pin connector) or 1540CF/1542CF (50-pin blue-ribbon connector) might be a better choice since the performance of the 174x EISA boards was a little lacking. Other options could be the 1540B/1542B or 1540C/1542C ISA boards or the later (and better performing) 274x series EISA boards. > video cards, or maybe a Targa 2000 let me know. The Targa 2000 isn't EISA either, nor does it have a 50-pin connector on the backplate. The Targa+ is closer, as a full-length extended height 16-bit ISA card. It also doesn't have 50-pin connectors, and instead has a pair of DE-9 connectors on it's backplate for the video cables. While on the subject, does anyone know where I can find a set of cables for a Targa+? I picked up one of these last year minus its cables. It was part of a large box of high end video boards and video capture boards I bought from someone who was selling off a deceased relative's computer stuff as "gold scrap". That lot of boards turned out to be one of the best such lots I've ever bought. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 16:35:11 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 17:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, TeoZ wrote: >> From: "Liam Proven" >> >>> During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA controller >>> cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host adaptors - they have >>> high-density 50-pin connectors on their backplates - and what might be >>> ESDI controllers. >> >> If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), > > The only caching controllers I remember for the EISA bus were made by > BusTek/BusLogic, Promise Technologies, and Tekram, none of which were full > length cards. > > It sounds more like an Adaptec AHA-1740A/1742A/1744 EISA SCSI card. The 174x > is an interesting design, but for actual use today, a 1540CP/1542CP (high > density 50-pin connector) or 1540CF/1542CF (50-pin blue-ribbon connector) > might be a better choice since the performance of the 174x EISA boards was a > little lacking. Other options could be the 1540B/1542B or 1540C/1542C ISA > boards or the later (and better performing) 274x series EISA boards. The 274x EISA boards were hot performers for their day. My first Linux box was a 486/50 with 16MB of memory and a 2742 controller. Amazing that X actually ran on it with (some) root to spare. I still have a pile of EISA boards in a bin somewhere. -- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 30 17:08:53 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20120929172310.GA20464@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120929172310.GA20464@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201209302208.SAA24712@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> A modern Linux or BSD distribution [...] but I've found most will >> run well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't >> running BIND). > I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux > just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For > rather small zones, admittedly. My house nameserver is a 96M NetBSD/sparc machine, running BIND. I'm not running huge zones like .com, but there is one that's not entirely trivial (somewhat over two thousand records). According to top, it has 64M RAM free, and that's without even touching swap, so I'm fairly sure 96M is substantial overkill for the application. Of course, the plural of `anecdote' is not `data'. But I do believe that you don't need anywhere near a quarter-gig of RAM just for an OS and BIND unless the OS is pretty severely bloated or you're serving big zones. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 30 17:16:25 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Hmmm... One 'thought experiemnt' goes like this : > Take your favourite microprocessor and write a stand-alone program > for it. Burn that program into an EPROM and wire it up [...]. Most > people agree that EPROM cotnains 'firmware'. > But an EPROM is just a combinatorial logic circuit. So for each of > the 8 data bits of the EPROM, write down the logic equation giving it > as a functionof the address inputs. Now implement that logic > equation using TTL gates. Repeat for the other EPROM data pins. > Wire the mess up, add tri-state buffers to the oputput, and connect > it in place of the EPROM. The microrpccor runs as before. Well, to be picky, I'm inclined to doubt it. The pile of TTL (quite aside from drawing enough power to heat your house) is very likely to have substantially higher propagation delay than the original PROM. > It must do. It gets the same logic levels on its data pins in the 2 > cases for each address it outputs. The microprocessor cann't know > whether it's an EPROM or a mass of 74xx chips. > But the result sure doesn;t _look_ like firmware :-) I'd say it looks as much like firmware as a PROM implemented as a board full of diodes, some of which have been cut. :-) > For that matter, It's difficult to distinguish between 'microcode' > and a 'state machine'. In theory. In practice, there is usually little doubt - while the two formalisms may be formally identical, there are, as reflected in the terminological difference, differences of attitude and style between the two. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 17:27:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:27:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sep 30, 2012, at 18:16, Mouse wrote: >> For that matter, It's difficult to distinguish between 'microcode' >> and a 'state machine'. > > In theory. In practice, there is usually little doubt - while the two > formalisms may be formally identical, there are, as reflected in the > terminological difference, differences of attitude and style between > the two. Sure. If you want to be pedantic, a processor isn't more than a large state machine. The primary significance of the name is in how you intend to use it. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 30 17:52:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 18:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201209302252.SAA24915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find a neat solution to > the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network > circuit [1]. ...dangling pointer here... > I can (and did) write down the equations givign the output voltage as > a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition principle > to solve for one input at a time) and solve them. I'd say that counts as doing math(s)! > This shows me it does indeed behave as I'd esxpect, but I still don't > feel satisfied. I don't feel I really understnad it. I am still > looking for an intuitive way to figure it out. Depending on the resistor network, there may not be one. I wanted to do something of the sort myself, once (prompted by the resistor network in xkcd #730). I treated it as a case of generalizing an uninteresting problem enough to make it interesting and then solving it; I built a program that takes a resistor network, including resistances and the ability to specify voltages at some nodes, and sets up the equations and solves them, giving current through each resistance and voltage at each node. (Of course, anyone who wants a copy is welcome to it; if you have git set up, you can ge tit by cloning git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/resistor-networks; if you don't, I can mail out copies. You'll also need lcs-cvt, as in ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/local/src/lcs-cvt/, or a little hand tweaking.) > On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically inclined than 90% > (or more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of > the neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural > logarithms, not the elctronic chaerge), for example. I once was at work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which said "SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2 is perhaps clear enough as a text form of it. I said "h-bar is Planck's constant, 137 is the fine structure constant, mu-zero is the permittivity of free space, but what's e?" - because I was pretty sure e didn't represent antilog(1) there. He said, "You're the first person to have gotten as far as `h-bar is Planck's constant'.". (e turned out to be a constant which depends on the material in the vicinity - the expression gives the local speed of light, as opposed to the vacuum speed.) Admittedly, knowing what Planck's constant is is of a slightly different order than knowing what e is in the sense you were using it, but I'd've hoped that at least a few people would.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 30 18:06:48 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:06:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <8507D5F59103461580245FADE65457EC@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Anyone want some free EISA cards? > On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > > The 274x EISA boards were hot performers for their day. My first Linux > box was a 486/50 with 16MB of memory and a 2742 controller. Amazing that > X actually ran on it with (some) root to spare. > I have a 247x EISA in a 486DX50 machine running a 68 pin SCSI HD, they are nice cards to have. My other 486DX50 EISA has a caching IDE card in it, also very nice. The vast majority of EISA cards are network or SCSI, I only have a couple EISA video cards and keep looking for a rare Targa 2000 EISA card (recently snagged the Nubus version which is also hard to find). From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 30 18:15:31 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:15:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <6574B344D19443A5A893E2990478FDD6@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Anyone want some free EISA cards? > While on the subject, does anyone know where I can find a set of cables > for a Targa+? I picked up one of these last year minus its cables. It was > part of a large box of high end video boards and video capture boards I > bought from someone who was selling off a deceased relative's computer > stuff as "gold scrap". That lot of boards turned out to be one of the best > such lots I've ever bought. You need to look for old AVID video editing cable that used the old Targa boards, or look for the PDF manual online which shows the wiring for those 9 pin plugs (just get serial port shells and wire then up with video cables). If you can't find the wiring setup email me in private and I will go dig out the manual and PDF that section for you. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 18:23:38 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 09:23:38 +1000 Subject: EISA Configuration Utility and .CFG files Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 9:06 AM, TeoZ wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2012 5:35 PM > Subject: Re: Anyone want some free EISA cards? The challenge with EISA is finding the .CFG files that work with the EISA Configuration Utility so you can get the mainboard to work with the boards. The floppy-based sets I have come across are a superset of those needed for a specific board so it is usually worth digging around in manufacturer "driver"/mainboard diskettes to check if they also shipped .CFG files for boards other than their own. The .CFG files (they are text files sometimes with comments) can be a useful source of information about what the board does and how it is intended to work (like slot-specific assignment, IRQ conflicts etc). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 18:51:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:51:15 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209302208.SAA24712@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120929172310.GA20464@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201209302208.SAA24712@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5068DAF3.2040400@neurotica.com> On 09/30/2012 06:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> A modern Linux or BSD distribution [...] but I've found most will >>> run well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't >>> running BIND). >> I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux >> just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For >> rather small zones, admittedly. > > My house nameserver is a 96M NetBSD/sparc machine, running BIND. I'm > not running huge zones like .com, but there is one that's not entirely > trivial (somewhat over two thousand records). According to top, it has > 64M RAM free, and that's without even touching swap, so I'm fairly sure > 96M is substantial overkill for the application. > > Of course, the plural of `anecdote' is not `data'. But I do believe > that you don't need anywhere near a quarter-gig of RAM just for an OS > and BIND unless the OS is pretty severely bloated or you're serving big > zones. Now now, this is classiccmp, you know how we hate real world experience here. My DNS server currently handles 319 zones, and functions as a resolver for about thirty machines. Running BIND9 on an UltraSPARC-IIe at 500MHz (Netra V100) with 1GB of RAM running NetBSD/sparc64 v5. No graphics or other foolishness on this server-in-a-rack machine. It is also a build server for a couple of software projects; when those jobs kick off it gets a bit swappy, but it's fine otherwise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 19:26:18 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 20:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EISA Configuration Utility and .CFG files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Nigel Williams wrote: > The challenge with EISA is finding the .CFG files that work with the > EISA Configuration Utility so you can get the mainboard to work with > the boards. You raise a very good point. Has anyone started an archive for EISA config files and setting utilities? -- From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Sep 30 19:31:11 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:31:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <5068DAF3.2040400@neurotica.com> References: <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120929172310.GA20464@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <201209302208.SAA24712@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5068DAF3.2040400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/30/2012 06:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> A modern Linux or BSD distribution [...] but I've found most will run >>>> well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't running >>>> BIND). >>> >>> I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux >>> just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For >>> rather small zones, admittedly. >> >> My house nameserver is a 96M NetBSD/sparc machine, running BIND. I'm >> not running huge zones like .com, but there is one that's not entirely >> trivial (somewhat over two thousand records). According to top, it has >> 64M RAM free, and that's without even touching swap, so I'm fairly sure >> 96M is substantial overkill for the application. >> >> Of course, the plural of `anecdote' is not `data'. But I do believe >> that you don't need anywhere near a quarter-gig of RAM just for an OS >> and BIND unless the OS is pretty severely bloated or you're serving big >> zones. > > Now now, this is classiccmp, you know how we hate real world experience > here. > > My DNS server currently handles 319 zones, and functions as a resolver > for about thirty machines. Running BIND9 on an UltraSPARC-IIe at 500MHz > (Netra V100) with 1GB of RAM running NetBSD/sparc64 v5. No graphics or > other foolishness on this server-in-a-rack machine. It is also a build > server for a couple of software projects; when those jobs kick off it > gets a bit swappy, but it's fine otherwise. That matches up with my real world experiences. I was explicit about the swap requirement with smaller amounts of memory for a reason. Running BIND9 strictly as a _caching_ nameserver (the most common application) under Debian Linux with 128MB of ram and no swap will no longer work. The amount of memory required by BIND9 plus the basic OS (no X, GUI, or other such fluff) will exceed 128MB of memory use and BIND will core dump. With more memory -or- swap available, this does not happen. This was a very unpleasant surprise when replacing the OS image on a substantial number of embedded devices, which also included replacing BIND8 and BIND9. In almost all cases it was trivial to just add more memory, which has solved the problem. BIND9 might behave better while serving small zones and not acting as a caching nameserver, but that isn't something I've had a reason to test. While it would have been possible to modify BIND itself so it would be better behaved, this isn't really practical from a software maintainability standpoint. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 30 19:50:56 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 17:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Sep 30, 12 07:31:11 pm" Message-ID: <201210010050.q910ouIl17694866@floodgap.com> > That matches up with my real world experiences. I was explicit about the > swap requirement with smaller amounts of memory for a reason. > > Running BIND9 strictly as a _caching_ nameserver (the most common > application) under Debian Linux with 128MB of ram and no swap will no > longer work. The amount of memory required by BIND9 plus the basic OS (no > X, GUI, or other such fluff) will exceed 128MB of memory use and BIND will > core dump. With more memory -or- swap available, this does not happen. I run BIND8 on a Macintosh IIci with NetBSD and 128MB of RAM as an internal nameserver (also to service very old DNS clients on my Solbourne and some other difficult-to-upgrade systems). It works well for this purpose, and does old-school AppleTalk as well. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Sun Sep 30 22:28:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:28:54 -0600 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > http://compgroups.net/comp.unix.solaris/what-is-the-ta-command/371925 "it drives an HP2621 from troff intermediate language output" One wonders why an HP2621 needed a special utility to drive it? There are termcap/terminfo definitions for it... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Sep 30 23:20:41 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:20:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Liam Proven writes: > >> http://compgroups.net/comp.unix.solaris/what-is-the-ta-command/371925 > > "it drives an HP2621 from troff intermediate language output" Any idea what "troff intermediate language output" is? I've never heard of it before. > One wonders why an HP2621 needed a special utility to drive it? There > are termcap/terminfo definitions for it... I think that's some sort of default. The 'T' command appears to read devname from input, and nothing seems to actually use it. Alexey From rickb at bensene.com Sun Sep 30 23:24:33 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:24:33 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Mouse wrote: > I'd say it looks as much like firmware as a PROM implemented as a board full > of diodes, some of which have been cut. :-) > So, Wang Laboratories made a series of machines it called the 100-series. There were display (Nixie tube) and printing versions of the calculator. The logic of the machine was small-scale DTL/TTL IC's. It was a microcoded architecture. The microcode sequencer consisted of a TI TMS 2600 ROM, which took inputs from various state flip flops, and generated control signals that ran the microcode through the sequences. The microcode itself was...wait for it... Two large circuit boards populated with diodes! The microcode itself was "hard wired' in diodes. The machine was developed at a time that MOS ROM wasn't quite there in terms of size and cost to hold the microcode, so the diode ROM was used. Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? From tim at tim-mann.org Sat Sep 29 15:32:14 2012 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 13:32:14 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 109, Issue 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have a MAX-80, but I'm hosting some MAX-80 info on my web site, here: http://tim-mann.org/trs80resources.html#max80 On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:54 PM, wrote: > Message: 24 > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:19:15 -0500 > From: Garrett Meiers > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: LOBO Systems MAX-80 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi, > > I was curious if anyone had any information about (or experience with) LOBO > Systems MAX-80's. I have four of these, and they came with no > accessories, documentation, etc. > > I found an operations manual and a Technical Reference manual, but that's > about it. > > My only testing so far was to connect them to an NTSC monitor, and all I > get is some static-like display. Reading the operation manuals, it says > something to the extent that it should display static if there are no disk > drives attached. But another part of the manual says it should show some > text on power-on. > > I am hoping to connect a floppy to one of these soon, and try to get it to > do something useful -- but I wanted to ping the list to see if anybody has > played with one of these, or might have additional documentation. > > Thanks, > > Garrett Meiers