From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 1 00:41:20 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:41:20 -0600 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Alexey Toptygin writes: > Any idea what "troff intermediate language output" is? I've never heard of > it before. See the source at: 42 /* 43 * drive hp2621 terminal 44 * just to see stuff quickly. like troff -a 45 */ 46 47 /* 48 output language from troff: 49 all numbers are character strings 50 51 sn size in points 52 fn font as number from 1-n 53 cx ascii character x 54 Cxyz funny char xyz. terminated by white space 55 Hn go to absolute horizontal position n 56 Vn go to absolute vertical position n (down is positive) 57 hn go n units horizontally (relative) 58 vn ditto vertically 59 nnc move right nn (exactly 2 digits!), then print c 60 (this wart is an optimization that shrinks output file size 61 about 35% and run-time about 15% while preserving ascii-ness) 62 w paddable word space - no action needed 63 nb a end of line (information only -- no action needed) 64 b = space before line, a = after 65 pn begin page n 66 #...\n comment 67 Dt ...\n draw operation 't': 68 Dl x y line from here by x,y 69 Dc d circle of diameter d with left side here 70 De x y ellipse of axes x,y with left side here 71 Da x y u v arc counter-clockwise from here to u,v from center 72 with center x,y from here 73 D~ x y x y ... wiggly line by x,y then x,y ... 74 x ...\n device control functions: 75 x i init 76 x T s name of device is s 77 x r n h v resolution is n/inch 78 h = min horizontal motion, v = min vert 79 x p pause (can restart) 80 x s stop -- done for ever 81 x t generate trailer 82 x f n s font position n contains font s 83 x H n set character height to n 84 x S n set character slant to n 85 86 Subcommands like "i" are often spelled out like "init". 87 */ -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 1 00:43:40 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:43:40 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? Yes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 1 00:51:55 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:51:55 -0600 Subject: Tektronix CT8500 terminal -- is it an OEM'ed Tek 4024? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > On Wednesday, I'll open the cabinet and inspect the board set inside, > but until then I thought someone here might be able to shed more light > on this. OK, looking inside what I see is a very condensed terminal implementation with absolutely no optional bits. No printer port, no optional memory upgrade, firmware on what appears to be 2 UV erasable EPROMS. While this design may have been influenced by the 4024, it appears to be it's own design. The 4024 was multiple boards plugged into a bus; the CT 8500 is a single board mounted on the inside of the rear cabinet cover. The case is really quite empty housing only the tube, high voltage board and two large transformers, presumably for the mains power supply. I did find a termcap entry for it, provided by a Tektronix employee; it doesn't seem to follow the 402x escape code sequence. Perhaps the CT 8x00 series of terminals were created entirely by the group that produced the microprocessor development systems and not by the information display systems group. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 01:39:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 02:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Nixie"s [was Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50655211.6010207@neurotica.com> <201209280909.FAA19153@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5065EE1E.9020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210010639.CAA28163@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The thing is, our society is losing information at an amazing and > terrifying rate, and one of the pieces of information that appears > (due to this conversation) on the verge of being "lost" is what a > Nixie tube actually is. It's not really open to interpretation or > debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said so, and has done so > over many decades. Burroughs - or whoever owns the rights these days - does not get to dictate how people use language, except to a very limited extent language as used in trade (trademark law has no applicability, in any jurisdiction as far as I know, to informal conversations such as this and other non-trade contexts). Even the Wikipedia page Nixie_tube (which, while no more authoritative than any Wikipedia page for facts, is, I think, a valid example of how language actually gets used) illustrates this. Its definition, as of this writing, does not include any mention of the term being a trademark, and the page uses the term in ways blatantly incompatible with the trademark definition: "Some Russian Nixies, e.g. the IN-14"..."In the former Soviet Union, Nixies were still being manufactured in volume in the 1980s, so Russian and Eastern European Nixies are still available". It mentions that "Burroughs...owned the name Nixie as a trademark" (not `owns'), and even goes so far as to remark "the phrase Nixie tube quickly entered the vernacular as a generic name" and include a see-also link to the Genericized_trademark page, so clearly _someone_ (besides me) thinks it's been substantially genericized already. Indeed, that we're even _having_ this conversation seems to me to support that position. I also am inclined to wonder what jurisdictions Burroughs trademarked `Nixie' in; it strikes me as quite possible that in many listmembers' jurisdictions it has never been a trademark. (I haven't bothered looking up whether mine is one of them because I don't consider it relevant to my main point.) Perhaps the detail that the term was trademarked in some jurisdictions is in danger of being lost to all but historians. I'm not convinced that's a bad thing; this has happened to many trademarks (the Genericized_trademark Wikipedia page mentioned above has examples) and I don't see the world as being any the worse for it. Nor do I see anyone as being worse off if "Nixie" goes generic, probably even including whoever owns its trademark rights now (presumably Unisys), especially since they do not appear to care any longer about either the name or the product. > Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a different gas...but > while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only > goal is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list? Probably not. But I would not suggest doing it with that goal. I rather was trying to say that I suspect it has already been done for some other reason (possibly even just "because I can" - as you remark, it'd be cool to do in its own right), though almost certainly not very often. Jeri Ellsworth, maybe? :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 01:43:48 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 02:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [A] 486 based system will simply not have enough physical memory >>> available [...] while serving up pages via Apache. >> Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. [...] > With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web > servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing > support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along > with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days? Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface. >> I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to >> 4.0.1 [...]. At 64M there was no problem. > Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram? Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if anyone cares. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 01:46:18 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 08:46:18 +0200 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > "Rick Bensene" writes: > >> Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? > > Yes. No, IMHO the particular _pattern_ of cut/missing diodes is the "firmware". The diodes are the ROM, yes. But like a book is a bunch of pressed tree-pulp, a "novel" is a particular arrangement of letters. Information is a thing, too! -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 1 01:49:23 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2012 23:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >>>> [A] 486 based system will simply not have enough physical memory >>>> available [...] while serving up pages via Apache. >>> Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. [...] >> With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web >> servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing >> support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along >> with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days? > > Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I > wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no > need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface. How does bozohttpd, in your opinion, compare with thttpd? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 02:46:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Non-Apache webservers [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201210010746.DAA28541@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...], who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along with >>> stuff such as mod_rewrite these days? >> Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. > How does bozohttpd, in your opinion, compare with thttpd? I don't really know enough about either one to say anything very authoritiative; see below. My impression - and, as I say, it may well be poorly founded - is that thttpd is a bit less feature-poor, which can be a plus or can be a minus. For me, every feature I don't need is a minus, and bozohttpd is already capable of significantly more than I want - when building it I use -DNO_CGIBIN_SUPPORT -DNO_DYNAMIC_CONTENT -DNO_SSL_SUPPORT -DNO_USER_SUPPORT, and would turn off vhosting and all dot-file interpretation if there were a similar defines for them. One thing I notice immediately is that thttpd has drunk the ./configure koolaid, which loses it substantial points with me (see my blah post http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-11-20-1.html for more on my opinions on the subject) and certainly makes it significantly more of a pain for me to use. Beyond that...my knowledge of bozohttpd is old enough I should probably be considered to be unfamiliar with its feature set, and my knowledge of thttpd borders on nonexistent (I only barely recognized the name when you asked about it, and have spent only a few minutes looking). So I'm not really competent to comment, as I said above. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 02:57:33 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 03:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201210010757.DAA28632@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'd say it looks as much like firmware as a PROM implemented as a >> board full of diodes, some of which have been cut. :-) > So, Wang Laboratories made [...microcoded SSI...] > The microcode itself was...wait for it... > Two large circuit boards populated with diodes! The microcode itself > was "hard wired' in diodes. > Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? I would say yes - well, if I unleash my full pickiness, I would say the diode ROM is not firmware but the data it holds is. I do, however, consider it close enough to the line that I'd listen rather than just laughing if someone were to argue the other way. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 1 03:06:25 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 02:06:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: In article , Joachim Thiemann writes: > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:43 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > In article , > > "Rick Bensene" writes: > > > >> Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? > > > > Yes. > > No, IMHO the particular _pattern_ of cut/missing diodes is the > "firmware". The diodes are the ROM, yes. But like a book is a bunch > of pressed tree-pulp, a "novel" is a particular arrangement of > letters. This is a non-distinguishing distinction. The firmware is realized as a bunch of cut/missing diodes. So what? Who cares how the firmware is realized, it's still firmware. It could be realized in Minecraft, that wouldn't make it any less firmware. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 03:26:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 04:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201210010826.EAA28752@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? >>> Yes. >> No, IMHO the [data] is the "firmware". > This is a non-distinguishing distinction. I disagree. It's "data" versus "instantiation of data". > Who cares how the firmware is realized, it's still firmware. It > could be realized in Minecraft, that wouldn't make it any less > firmware. Exactly! The firmware is the data; the diode matrix embodies the data but is not the same thing as it - consider that, if they were the same thing, it wouldn't make sense to speak of saving a copy of the firmware in a file on a modern disk drive, because that's something you can't do with a bunch of diodes and PCBs and such. For most purposes, this distinction doesn't make much difference, but it's why it makes sense to speak of (for example) replacing those two boards with a modern PROM containing the same firmware. Same data, different instantiation. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Oct 1 05:32:03 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 11:32:03 +0100 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121001103203.GA23278@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 04:43:48PM +0000, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > ta In the tradition of tac - it's cat, except the output is sdrawkcab - I would expect ta to be at, only backwards. So you give it a time in the past and it made something happen then. -- David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence You can't spell "slaughter" without "laughter" From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 07:04:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 07:04:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >>>> [A] 486 based system will simply not have enough physical memory >>>> available [...] while serving up pages via Apache. >>> Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. [...] >> >> With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web >> servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing >> support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along >> with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days? > > Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I > wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no > need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface. But, what are you using the web server for? Again, I qualified this as "public facing web servers", not a webserver used for personal use or embedded applications. For those applications there are other, potentially more suitable webserver implementations. When you have a need Apache's functionality, you run Apache ;P Apache may have a lot of optional features, but as widely as it is used and as much auditing has been done on its code, I'd trust it more than I would one of the smaller single threaded webservers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus%27_Law >>> I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to >>> 4.0.1 [...]. At 64M there was no problem. >> >> Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram? > > Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere > in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if > anyone cares. Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is the easiest solution. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 07:28:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 08:28:08 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <89B8E604-193F-4E43-9BDE-FA7521936832@gmail.com> On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is the easiest solution. Sure, assuming the option is available. For a long time, I ran my home router on a PC-104 stack running an AMD Elan (which, if I recall correctly, is an Am5x86 System-on-a-Chip) which had its 32MB RAM soldered to the board. It made a certain amount of sense, since PC-104 is widely used as an industrial platform, but I certainly couldn't expand the RAM. In any case, this ran OpenBSD 3.0 on a 32 MB CompactFlash just fine (stripped down to fit, of course, but fine) and handled all the traffic to our webserver over the DSL line just fine. I don't anticipate that modern OpenBSD would perform the same; we recently upgraded to a Mini-ITX Atom board with 2 GB of RAM and run modern OpenBSD relatively comfortably. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 1 08:15:59 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Oct 1, 12 07:04:43 am" Message-ID: <201210011315.q91DFxtn14483544@floodgap.com> > Again, I qualified this as "public facing web servers", not a webserver > used for personal use or embedded applications. For those applications > there are other, potentially more suitable webserver implementations. When > you have a need Apache's functionality, you run Apache ;P I run my own web server (httpi.floodgap.com) mostly because I can, and because it's been banged on for over a decade. Yes, it's public facing. Apache is usually not the wrong answer, but I have always distrusted computing monocultures of any sort. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 1 08:24:36 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210010746.DAA28541@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse at "Oct 1, 12 03:46:31 am" Message-ID: <201210011324.q91DOatu15990802@floodgap.com> > One thing I notice immediately is that thttpd has drunk the ./configure > koolaid, which loses it substantial points with me (see my blah post > http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-11-20-1.html for more > on my opinions on the subject) and certainly makes it significantly > more of a pain for me to use. On the other hand, Perl has a shining example of a configure system that actually works. Well, at least it did; current versions may be equally infected (I don't like some of the changes in 5.14 so I mostly use 5.8 and 5.12). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is not enough. --------------------------------------------------- From rickb at bensene.com Mon Oct 1 09:31:52 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 07:31:52 -0700 Subject: Tektronix CT8500 terminal -- is it an OEM'ed Tek 4024? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a memory of the CT8500 terminals being made by someone else, and Tek just branded them and sold/serviced them. I may be wrong, but I spent a lot of time hanging around with MDP (Microprocessor Development Products) folks at the Tek Walker Road facility, and I think that is where I may have heard mention that the terminals weren't "Tek Inside". Did the circuit main logic board appear to be Tektronix-made? Tek-made ECBs (etched circuit board) were very distinctive through the 1980's. Tek would put a title of the board, a part number (usually 670-xxxx-yy), and in some cases, the initials of the circuit board layout designer(s). This nomenclature was in etch, not silkscreen, although sometimes they would also silkscreen identification on to the boards. If it's a Tek-made board, then likely my memory is incorrect about the terminal being an OEM item that Tek sold under its name. I remember using these terminals -- the keyboards -- not the best. But, they were pretty inexpensive, and as a basic terminal, did pretty well. I thought of buying the parts for one from Engineering Stock, where employees could order up parts at 10% over Tek cost. I never got around to building up a CT-8500 terminal, but I did buy all of the parts and build a Tektronix 6130 Unix workstation this way, which was a real kick. Amazingly, it came up into the ROM-based monitor on the first try. Took a few troubleshooting sessions before I was able to install UTek on it, though (some cabling issues with the floppy drive), but that's another story. -Rick From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Mon Oct 1 09:46:23 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:46:23 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > >> > >> Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram? > > > > Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere > > in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if > > anyone cares. > > Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the consumer > chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work. > It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash or > SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a > challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand > SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is the easiest solution. Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M (3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( . ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more lenient on the memory module particulars... Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of devaluation of that word. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 10:33:20 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 11:33:20 -0400 Subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5069B7C0.2010100@gmail.com> I don't know who wrote this: >> Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine >> which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence is But chlorine is *not* more electronegative than oxygen. You must have been thinking of *fluorine*. Electronegativity goes F -> O -> Cl -> N -> Kr -> Br -> I -> Xe -> S -> C. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 10:43:12 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 11:43:12 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5069BA10.5050703@gmail.com> Tothwolf wrote: >>> During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA >>> controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host >>> adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their >>> backplates - and what might be ESDI controllers. >> >> If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), > > The only caching controllers I remember for the EISA bus were made by > BusTek/BusLogic, Promise Technologies, and Tekram, none of which were > full length cards. DPT had at least one EISA caching SCSI RAID controller, but that's a bit different. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 11:14:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 12:14:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I >> wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no >> need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface. > But, what are you using the web server for? Exporting stuff to the world. > Again, I qualified this as "public facing web servers", Oh, it's public-facing. It provides an HTTP view of my anonymous FTP area. I don't know how much use it actually gets - I don't care enough to bother extracting stats from the logs, especially since the Google crawler drowns out almost everything else - but the major thing I would miss if it were to break is my blah (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. > When you have a need Apache's functionality, you run Apache ;P Yeah, I did say "[u]nless you actually need some of its [] features". > Apache may have a lot of optional features, but as widely as it is > used and as much auditing has been done on its code, I'd trust it > more than I would one of the smaller single threaded webservers. A comparably feature-loaded one, perhaps. But I don't think that's entirely fair when comparing against something like bozohttpd or (as mentioned above) thttpd, which are very feature-poor; a feature that isn't present in the code is a feature you're guaranteed to not suffer from bugs in. "There are two ways to make something appear bug-free: one is to make it so simple there are obviously no defects; the other is to make it so complex there are no obvious defects." (Paraphrased from memory.) bozohttpd is 4358 lines, including overhead like the manpage and Makefiles (I just checked), of which at least a few hundred are parts I dike out. That's small enough to read over in full in an afternoon. Apache's configure script alone is more than seven times that size. Include files, over three times. This is not _necessarily_ a problem; as remarked above, if you actually have a use for those features, you need that code. I don't. > Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram Maybe the CPU will. But that's not to say the machine will. This one, I don't know; if I'd had large enough sticks of RAM for it, the hardware might well have supported it for all I know. > but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work. Oh, 32M _worked_...if you count thrashing for the better part of a day to compile a single file as working. I don't really. In any case, I don't consider that machine on-topic here; that was a side note in response to something which I saw as implying that 128M was some kind of effective minimum and that 32M was unusably little, neither of which is true in my experience. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 12:35:57 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 10:35:57 -0700 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) Message-ID: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> FYI Google stopped doing it, but now someone else has started. http://answerpot.com/showthread.php?3908394-Tektronix%20CT8500%20terminal%20--%20is%20it%20an%20OEM%27ed%20Tek%204024? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 12:37:32 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 10:37:32 -0700 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> References: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5069D4DC.3070508@bitsavers.org> On 10/1/12 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > FYI > > Google stopped doing it, but now someone else has started. > http://answerpot.com/showthread.php?3908394-Tektronix%20CT8500%20terminal%20--%20is%20it%20an%20OEM%27ed%20Tek%204024? and since answerpot is indexed by Google, it cctlk posts show up in Google searches again. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 12:38:05 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 13:38:05 -0400 Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5069D4FD.50003@gmail.com> Mouse wrote: > (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I > initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of > offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to > (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL? Peace... Sridhar From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:04:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 18:04:51 +0000 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) Message-ID: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> That's not a good thing? From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:07:36 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 18:07:36 +0000 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069D4DC.3070508@bitsavers.org> References: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> <5069D4DC.3070508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2057581541-1349114859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2071947662-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Btw I didn't see any robots.txt on classiccmp.org or www.classiccmp.org fwiw they might be compliant if you add one and put up if its costing you bandwidth $ -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 10:37:32 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: cctalk being indexed (again) On 10/1/12 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > FYI > > Google stopped doing it, but now someone else has started. > http://answerpot.com/showthread.php?3908394-Tektronix%20CT8500%20terminal%20--%20is%20it%20an%20OEM%27ed%20Tek%204024? and since answerpot is indexed by Google, it cctlk posts show up in Google searches again. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 1 13:11:07 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 12:11:07 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5069DCBB.60005@brouhaha.com> Rick Bensene wrote: > Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? The diode ROM is hardware. What is "stored" in the diode ROM is firmware. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 13:12:55 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 11:12:55 -0700 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> On 10/1/12 11:04 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > That's not a good thing? > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? I do. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 1 13:17:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 12:17:01 -0600 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5069DE1D.3080305@brouhaha.com> Joachim Thiemann writes: > No, IMHO the particular _pattern_ of cut/missing diodes is the > "firmware". The diodes are the ROM, yes. But like a book is a bunch of > pressed tree-pulp, a "novel" is a particular arrangement of letters. Richard wrote: > This is a non-distinguishing distinction. The firmware is realized as > a bunch of cut/missing diodes. So what? Who cares how the firmware is > realized, it's still firmware. It could be realized in Minecraft, that > wouldn't make it any less firmware. No, it's a completely sensible and useful distinction. The fact that firmware can be realized in Minecraft doesn't make Minecraft firmware, any more than the fact that firmware can be stored as a pattern of electrical charges on floating gates makes an EPROM be firmware. I have plenty of EPROMs that are not firmware, but perhaps could store firmware at some future date. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 1 13:27:15 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 19:27:15 +0100 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <2057581541-1349114859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2071947662-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> <5069D4DC.3070508@bitsavers.org> <2057581541-1349114859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2071947662-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 1 October 2012 19:07, wrote: > Btw I didn't see any robots.txt on classiccmp.org or www.classiccmp.org fwiw they might be compliant if you add one and put up if its costing you bandwidth $ > I don't like it when lists, which I think should have some, slight expectation of privacy (outside of the list members of course) are put on the net without permission. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 1 13:33:03 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 19:33:03 +0100 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1 October 2012 19:12, Al Kossow wrote: > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? > > I do. > So do I. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 1 13:44:04 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 11:44:04 -0700 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5069E474.2020603@bitsavers.org> On 10/1/12 11:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/1/12 11:04 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> That's not a good thing? >> > > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? > > I do. > Well, thinking about it some more, cctlk isn't actually private, since I forgot that ay has maintained a web-accessable archive at http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/ So now some list aggregator has started crawing it. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 13:53:43 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 18:53:43 +0000 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) Message-ID: <2091624244-1349117624-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2127888923-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> I don't consider anything on the net private but I'm used to knowing that the lists I'm a part of are public (usually). I also think its a good reference for folks just like forums which I appreciate when I can search for already solved issues without having to sign up on their site for potentially 1 use. Could just me be though and I'm not sure what (Jay?)'s intent is with this list which is really where the authority lies. ------Original Message------ From: Al Kossow Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: cctalk being indexed (again) Sent: Oct 1, 2012 1:12 PM On 10/1/12 11:04 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > That's not a good thing? > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? I do. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 1 14:24:52 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 12:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <5069D4FD.50003@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Oct 1, 12 01:38:05 pm" Message-ID: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> > > (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I > > initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of > > offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to > > (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. > > I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites > for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL? gopher:// -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am an unmitigated Macintosh bigot. So there. ----------------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 1 14:54:18 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 13:54:18 -0600 Subject: Tektronix CT8500 terminal -- is it an OEM'ed Tek 4024? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > Did the circuit main logic board appear to be Tektronix-made? Having looked at a bunch of Tek circuit boards, I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, but I will take a picture on Wednesday when I'm back down at the museum. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 1 15:05:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 13:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/1/12 11:04 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> That's not a good thing? >> > > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? > > I do. Unless the mail archive is only available to subscribers (afaik, it's not and never has been), it's a public mailing list. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 15:13:51 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:13:51 -0400 Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> References: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5069F97F.5070104@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I >>> initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of >>> offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to >>> (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. >> >> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites >> for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL? > > gopher:// Yes, but the ftp:// would have already existed. A gopher:// URL would require him to run gopherd, right? Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 1 15:24:04 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 13:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> References: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I >>> initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of >>> offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to >>> (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. >> >> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites >> for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL? > > gopher:// Heh. I maintain a gopher mirror of the Interactive Fiction Archive. See gopher://gopher.feedle.net/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 1 15:29:27 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 21:29:27 +0100 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 1 October 2012 21:05, geneb wrote: > > Unless the mail archive is only available to subscribers (afaik, it's not > and never has been), it's a public mailing list. Fair enough. I prefer it if you have to subscribe to read the messages. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 16:15:52 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 14:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <1349126152.46589.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chris Pye \ On 29/09/2012, at 2:09 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > speaking of Apple clones...did any make it to the US or Canada? I've got one in Australia..? They were quite common here, along with many other clones. Chris C: You say _were_ quite common. Does that mean they still are? ????? Did they use actual duplicate Apple ][ roms? That's the story I heard (and in a landmark Australian court case the judge/s ruled that since it wasn't a literary work, there was no copyright infringement. Oh how I wish our courts were so lax/goofy!). From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 1 16:19:48 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 14:19:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <1349126388.22462.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ok maybe I shouldn't have stated that it had actual clone Apple roms. Truth is I only read a snippet on the issue in an old BYTE. Perhaps they were only similar. Perhaps they were too close for comfort. What was reported was the outcome of the case. It didn't state what was the basis for the case, whether they accused them of swiping portions or whatever. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 16:49:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 16:49:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: >> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> >>> Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere >>> in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if >>> anyone cares. >> >> Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the >> consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would >> probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such >> as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less >> memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As >> cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is >> the easiest solution. > > Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M > (3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M > memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( . > > ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more > lenient on the memory module particulars... > > Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of > devaluation of that word. Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was wrong. Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB max (3x 128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in the days of Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain slower models of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly possible they did something similar with memory. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 16:56:39 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 16:56:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <89B8E604-193F-4E43-9BDE-FA7521936832@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <89B8E604-193F-4E43-9BDE-FA7521936832@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the >> consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would >> probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such >> as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less >> memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As >> cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is >> the easiest solution. > > Sure, assuming the option is available. For a long time, I ran my home > router on a PC-104 stack running an AMD Elan (which, if I recall > correctly, is an Am5x86 System-on-a-Chip) which had its 32MB RAM > soldered to the board. It made a certain amount of sense, since PC-104 > is widely used as an industrial platform, but I certainly couldn't > expand the RAM. > > In any case, this ran OpenBSD 3.0 on a 32 MB CompactFlash just fine > (stripped down to fit, of course, but fine) and handled all the traffic > to our webserver over the DSL line just fine. I don't anticipate that > modern OpenBSD would perform the same; we recently upgraded to a > Mini-ITX Atom board with 2 GB of RAM and run modern OpenBSD relatively > comfortably. True. It actually would be possible to upgrade the memory via an expansion board in the stack, or possibly even replace the on-board ram chips, but in a case such as this, it would unfortunately be easier to replace the PC/104 processor board and repurpose the old board for a different application. Most of the "newer" PC/104 boards I work with at least are able to accept various SODIMMs, and those that I had to work with recently all seemed to handle at least 256MB or 512MB without any major issues (finding low-density 16-chip 256MB SODIMM modules for some of the boards wasn't the easiest though). From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 17:06:30 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 18:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: <5069BA10.5050703@gmail.com> References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5069BA10.5050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: >>>> During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA >>>> controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host >>>> adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their >>>> backplates - and what might be ESDI controllers. >>> >>> If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), >> >> The only caching controllers I remember for the EISA bus were made by >> BusTek/BusLogic, Promise Technologies, and Tekram, none of which were >> full length cards. > > DPT had at least one EISA caching SCSI RAID controller, but that's a bit > different. I have one of those, along with a memory add-on piggyback. It was actually a real dog. -- From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 17:06:56 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:06:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> References: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I >>> initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of >>> offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to >>> (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. >> >> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP >> sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an >> ftp:// URL? > > gopher:// But!!! Gopher is insecure! Bug 388195 - Remove gopher protocol support for Firefox http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=388195 I suspect FTP may well be next. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 17:09:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:09:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <5069D4FD.50003@gmail.com> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <5069D4FD.50003@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mouse wrote: > >> (http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I >> initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of >> offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to >> (horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. > > I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites > for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL? HTTP is technically more efficient for such browsing (no overhead of constant FTP connection setups and teardowns). Not everyone has FTP support working through their home-gateway-router device either, although IMO such devices /should/ be including full support for FTP. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 17:19:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:19:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210011614.MAA00160@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram > > Maybe the CPU will. But that's not to say the machine will. That's a valid point. Stefan's Dell example is one I wasn't even thinking about since I try to avoid such broken hardware designs at all costs and don't generally run into such older Dell systems still in use. > This one, I don't know; if I'd had large enough sticks of RAM for it, > the hardware might well have supported it for all I know. > >> but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work. > > Oh, 32M _worked_...if you count thrashing for the better part of a day > to compile a single file as working. I don't really. I wouldn't consider that working since it isn't really /usable/ in any serious way. > In any case, I don't consider that machine on-topic here; that was a > side note in response to something which I saw as implying that 128M was > some kind of effective minimum and that 32M was unusably little, neither > of which is true in my experience. Meh. I once considered 16MB and then 32MB to be the usable minimum and I once could run X11R6 on a 386DX with 32MB and swap. Today, based on my experience, 128MB -without- swap space isn't usable for a single board computer configured as a 2-interface router and DHCP server that includes a caching nameserver, but 256MB got the job done. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 17:26:25 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:26:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <5069D47D.8070802@bitsavers.org> <5069D4DC.3070508@bitsavers.org> <2057581541-1349114859-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2071947662-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > On 1 October 2012 19:07, wrote: > >> Btw I didn't see any robots.txt on classiccmp.org or www.classiccmp.org >> fwiw they might be compliant if you add one and put up if its costing >> you bandwidth $ > > I don't like it when lists, which I think should have some, slight > expectation of privacy (outside of the list members of course) are put > on the net without permission. classiccmp has been archived pretty much as far back as I can remember. At one time we "lost" parts of the archives, but those were recovered from personal copies (I sent a huge chunk to Jeffrey Sharp back when we were trying to reconstruct them). MARC also appears to archive classiccmp. http://marc.info/?l=classiccmp From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 17:30:25 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:30:25 -0500 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote: > Fair enough. I prefer it if you have to subscribe to read the messages. As would I, all other things being equal. But it would be helpful if the list archive had a search function of some kind. If not, the only available search method would be to download all the archive files locally. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 1 17:31:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 17:31:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Anyone want some free EISA cards? In-Reply-To: References: <1A9E3A0D78994D3FAE610CF505044FC5@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5069BA10.5050703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Tothwolf wrote: >> >>>>> During the ongoing clearout, I've found some full-length EISA >>>>> controller cards. By the look of it, there are some SCSI 2 host >>>>> adaptors - they have high-density 50-pin connectors on their >>>>> backplates - and what might be ESDI controllers. >>>> >>>> If you have any EISA caching controllers (SCSI or IDE), >>> >>> The only caching controllers I remember for the EISA bus were made by >>> BusTek/BusLogic, Promise Technologies, and Tekram, none of which were >>> full length cards. >> >> DPT had at least one EISA caching SCSI RAID controller, but that's a >> bit different. > > I have one of those, along with a memory add-on piggyback. It was > actually a real dog. I can't say I've seen that one, however given DPT's awful driver support and outright refusal to supply programming documentation for Linux drivers, I tended to avoid their SCSI cards in favor of BusTek/BusLogic, Adaptec, LSI, etc. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Oct 1 17:32:35 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:32:35 +0000 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: <506750A6.8010803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On 9/29/12 12:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: >Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> >> I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of >> SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently >> discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that >> most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed >> over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, > >Wow! bfs can handle files up to 1024 Kbytes, and up to 512 characters >per line! Amazing! > >> and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. > >Sun (now Oracle) is slow to remove things because customers might >actually be using them. > And since Oracle has no idea what customers might actually be using, it's an amazing thought they'd care, or at least be benignly uncaring. Should we consider this a win? :-) From pye at mactec.com.au Mon Oct 1 17:41:16 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 08:41:16 +1000 Subject: anyone got a Wombat? In-Reply-To: <1349126152.46589.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1348891770.44002.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <268FAFAE-F4AA-4328-AEEC-96238A933FF7@mactec.com.au> <1349126152.46589.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <272BA8CA-CAD8-4522-B905-4F448D98CCF5@mactec.com.au> On 02/10/2012, at 7:15 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > C: You say _were_ quite common. Does that mean they still are? > > Did they use actual duplicate Apple ][ roms? That's the story I heard (and in a landmark Australian court case the judge/s ruled that since it wasn't a literary work, there was no copyright infringement. Oh how I wish our courts were so lax/goofy!). Not particularly common here any more, 15 to 20 years ago yes. They seemed to be discarded well before most genuine Apple II's, I think perhaps because most of the clones were privately owned, and the real Apples were mainly in schools where they stayed in service for a long time, also the clones were cheap to start with so didn't have much (if any) resale value. IIRC the Wombat firmware code was basically an exact copy, just on three larger ROMs instead of six. You can probably find the full court transcripts if you search on Apple computer v Computer Edge. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 19:52:54 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:52:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> On 09/26/2012 05:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 is no > longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 1 19:52:53 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 18:52:53 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/1/2012 6:52 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 09/26/2012 05:30 PM, Jay West wrote: >> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 is no >> longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ > > It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. > But DEC never used hex. Anyhow the time old computers could be picked for a song is now gone. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 1 20:08:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 21:08:27 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <506A3E8B.5010508@neurotica.com> On 10/01/2012 08:52 PM, ben wrote: >>> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 >>> is no >>> longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ >> >> It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. >> > But DEC never used hex. WTF? The entire worlds of VAX and Alpha are hex. And if you dismiss that for being "too new", I might go along with it for Alpha (1992) but certainly not VAX (1978). -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 1 20:24:05 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 19:24:05 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A3E8B.5010508@neurotica.com> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> <506A3E8B.5010508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506A4235.1020408@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/1/2012 7:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/01/2012 08:52 PM, ben wrote: >>>> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 >>>> is no >>>> longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ >>> >>> It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. >>> >> But DEC never used hex. The time frame was for the 11. > WTF? The entire worlds of VAX and Alpha are hex. I forgot about the big DEC stuff, there. > And if you dismiss that for being "too new", I might go along with it > for Alpha (1992) but certainly not VAX (1978). I tend to think system size. Small is something you can touch. Big I just think perhaps if the gods are willing I can have few seconds of access time. > -Dave > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 1 20:25:17 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 21:25:17 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <506A427D.3090905@verizon.net> On 10/01/2012 08:52 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/1/2012 6:52 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 09/26/2012 05:30 PM, Jay West wrote: >>> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 >>> is no >>> longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ >> >> It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. >> > But DEC never used hex. Anyhow the time old computers > could be picked for a song is now gone. > > > > Huh?? DEC used hex cards in the unibus 11s I even have core and a few random boards for one all hex! Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 1 20:34:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2012 21:34:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A4235.1020408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <18178522-E5D3-43C4-ADFD-A47321D62167@classiccmp.org> <506A3AE6.8050205@gmail.com> <506A3AE5.3040207@jetnet.ab.ca> <506A3E8B.5010508@neurotica.com> <506A4235.1020408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <506A448A.6030500@neurotica.com> On 10/01/2012 09:24 PM, ben wrote: >>>>> My apologies, just got confirmation from the offerer that the 11/10 >>>>> is no >>>>> longer available. My fault for taking 25 days to check my email :\ >>>> >>>> It's only 19 in hex, which doesn't look quite as bad. >>>> >>> But DEC never used hex. > > The time frame was for the 11. The word was "never". >> And if you dismiss that for being "too new", I might go along with it >> for Alpha (1992) but certainly not VAX (1978). > > I tend to think system size. Small is something you can touch. > Big I just think perhaps if the gods are willing I can have few seconds > of access time. But there are common models of both the VAX and Alpha families that are a whole lot smaller than the average PeeCee. Sorry, Mouse has got me in a nit-pickin' (not nose-pickin') mood. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 1 21:15:52 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:15:52 +0000 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: References: <506750A6.8010803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <698983151-1349144154-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-643005258-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Giving a lot of credit and knowledge to a "recently" purchased product. I would be more inclined to think they didn't know what it was or why its there either unless some other bin calls it. -----Original Message----- From: Ian King Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:32:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Old UNIX utils On 9/29/12 12:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: >Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> >> I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of >> SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently >> discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that >> most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed >> over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, > >Wow! bfs can handle files up to 1024 Kbytes, and up to 512 characters >per line! Amazing! > >> and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. > >Sun (now Oracle) is slow to remove things because customers might >actually be using them. > And since Oracle has no idea what customers might actually be using, it's an amazing thought they'd care, or at least be benignly uncaring. Should we consider this a win? :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 1 21:21:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (mcguire at neurotica.com) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:21:33 -0400 Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: <698983151-1349144154-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-643005258-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <506750A6.8010803@brouhaha.com> <698983151-1349144154-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-643005258-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <8681CAB9-9725-4A25-922E-0B119A31B591@neurotica.com> It's not like people within Oracle have never used Solaris.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA On Oct 1, 2012, at 10:15 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Giving a lot of credit and knowledge to a "recently" purchased product. I would be more inclined to think they didn't know what it was or why its there either unless some other bin calls it. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ian King > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 22:32:35 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Old UNIX utils > > On 9/29/12 12:48 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: > >> Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> >>> I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of >>> SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently >>> discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that >>> most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed >>> over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, >> >> Wow! bfs can handle files up to 1024 Kbytes, and up to 512 characters >> per line! Amazing! >> >>> and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. >> >> Sun (now Oracle) is slow to remove things because customers might >> actually be using them. >> > > And since Oracle has no idea what customers might actually be using, it's > an amazing thought they'd care, or at least be benignly uncaring. Should > we consider this a win? :-) > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 1 22:29:26 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:29:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> References: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201210020329.XAA02261@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> I don't recall why I initially started running [bozohttpd on my >>> anon FTP area]; the most plausible reason I can think of offhand is >>> to shut up people who were whining about having to (horrors!) use >>> something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. >> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP >> sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an >> ftp:// URL? I don't know. Perhaps they were behind firewalling that allowed HTTP but not FTP. Perhaps it was one of the (few) people I know that don't really understand such things and had human-layer trouble with non-http URL methods. Perhaps the browser in question was a so crippled as to not support ftp://. More likely than any of those, I suspect, is that the actual reason was something else and my guess was completely wrong. It _was_ years and years ago. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 1 22:43:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 20:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old UNIX utils In-Reply-To: <8681CAB9-9725-4A25-922E-0B119A31B591@neurotica.com> from "mcguire@neurotica.com" at "Oct 1, 12 10:21:33 pm" Message-ID: <201210020343.q923hVIq16777354@floodgap.com> > >>> I saw a lightning talk on Tursday by one of the maintainers of > >>> SmartOS, a fork of Illumos, itself a fork of OpenSolaris. He recently > >>> discovered that there were some interesting things in /usr/bin that > >>> most people don't realize are there, that had stowed away unnoticed > >>> over the years: bfs and ta. He demoed them for us, > >> > >> Wow! bfs can handle files up to 1024 Kbytes, and up to 512 characters > >> per line! Amazing! > >> > >>> and I have to say I'm sort-of shocked that they never got rm(1)ed. > >> > >> Sun (now Oracle) is slow to remove things because customers might > >> actually be using them. > >> > > > > And since Oracle has no idea what customers might actually be using, it's > > an amazing thought they'd care, or at least be benignly uncaring. Should > > we consider this a win? :-) AIX still has bfs (at least 6.1 installed on this here POWER6). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- With a rubber duck, one's never alone. -- Douglas Adams, "HGTTG" ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 1 22:44:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 20:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP-11/10 In-Reply-To: <506A448A.6030500@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 1, 12 09:34:02 pm" Message-ID: <201210020344.q923iKlm16515322@floodgap.com> > But there are common models of both the VAX and Alpha families that > are a whole lot smaller than the average PeeCee. I got my desktop VAX just last week. :) Need to interface it to the Solbourne S3000, which will act as its groovy orange console. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Logan! You renewed!" ------------------------------------------------------ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 2 01:28:24 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 08:28:24 +0200 Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210011324.q91DOatu15990802@floodgap.com> References: <201210010746.DAA28541@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210011324.q91DOatu15990802@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On the other hand, Perl has a shining example of a configure system that > actually works. \begin{OT-rant} Hahahaha. Ever tried to cross compile Perl? A teammate tried for two weeks and gave up in big frustration. \end{OT-rant} -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spedraja at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 01:18:59 2012 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 08:18:59 +0200 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: That's fine. I don't like to see my messages inside the lists indexed and available for everybody in the Internet. It's a matter of privacy. I can have some care in my comments inside it but soon or later everyone can put some personal information which not concern to no one. The goal would be to protect the archive and put in service some kind of search engine as said below. And this is valid for any kind of 'mirror' of the list. I don't know if exists something so. Regards SPc. 2012/10/2, Jason T : > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Many Jars > wrote: >> Fair enough. I prefer it if you have to subscribe to read the messages. > > As would I, all other things being equal. But it would be helpful if > the list archive had a search function of some kind. If not, the only > available search method would be to download all the archive files > locally. > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Oct 2 04:31:10 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 02:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server Message-ID: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> i am noticing I building up a collection of disk images (both legal and illegal) that I would like to keep in one place I am wondering if anybody has setup a disk image server and connected their vintage computers to it? the under lying technology dose exists tape emulation[1] floppy disk emulation[2a] [2b] hard drive emulation[3a][3b] [1] http://www.luigidifraia.com/c64/dc2n/index.html [2a] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk_hardware_emulator [2b]http://www.ide64.org/ [3a] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATA_over_Ethernet [3b] http://www.jwe.com.tw --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 05:04:57 2012 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 06:04:57 -0400 Subject: RACAL RNX 6500 Message-ID: Any information on this machin? Can't find anything on google other than "Racal-Datacom RNX 6500 Bridge/Router" -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 07:33:27 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:33:27 +0000 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) Message-ID: <1291155187-1349181209-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-8482736-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> The list does have a searchable feature open to the public via classiccmp.org. Ironically it seems to just do a google search using the site:classiccmp.org argument which I think means google does crawl the site already and is meant to. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 07:41:27 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:41:27 +0000 Subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] In-Reply-To: <201210020329.XAA02261@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201210011924.q91JOq3C9830596@floodgap.com> <201210020329.XAA02261@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1528931096-1349181690-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-289888827-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Imho ftp is a pita with firewalls in place. That's why any protocol that sticks to just one port and initIation direction for communication is nice. -----Original Message----- From: Mouse Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:29:26 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?] >>> I don't recall why I initially started running [bozohttpd on my >>> anon FTP area]; the most plausible reason I can think of offhand is >>> to shut up people who were whining about having to (horrors!) use >>> something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff. >> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP >> sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an >> ftp:// URL? I don't know. Perhaps they were behind firewalling that allowed HTTP but not FTP. Perhaps it was one of the (few) people I know that don't really understand such things and had human-layer trouble with non-http URL methods. Perhaps the browser in question was a so crippled as to not support ftp://. More likely than any of those, I suspect, is that the actual reason was something else and my guess was completely wrong. It _was_ years and years ago. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 2 08:21:32 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 06:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 2, 12 08:28:24 am" Message-ID: <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, Perl has a shining example of a configure system that > > actually works. > \begin{OT-rant} > Hahahaha. Ever tried to cross compile Perl? A teammate tried for two > weeks and gave up in big frustration. > \end{OT-rant} Why would you expect a configure for that system to cross-compile? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How can you be in two places at once when you're not anywhere at all? -- F.T. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 2 09:47:07 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 07:47:07 -0700 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/12 2:31 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > i am noticing I building up a collection of disk images (both legal and illegal) that I would like to keep in one place > Have you been following the "cctalk being indexed" thread? Do you REALLY want the entire world to know this? From vrs at msn.com Tue Oct 2 09:58:23 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 07:58:23 -0700 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Jason T": Monday, October 01, 2012 3:30 PM > On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 3:29 PM, John Many Jars >> Fair enough. I prefer it if you have to subscribe to read the messages. > > As would I, all other things being equal. But it would be helpful if > the list archive had a search function of some kind. If not, the only > available search method would be to download all the archive files > locally. I'm hopeful that there will continue *not* to be a call for action on this point. I think the benefit of having the list indexed *far* outweighs the possibility that one of us will accidentally reveal something personal in public. And I consider myself a privacy buff. My experience is that when I want to look up something (often quite obscure) about my favorite vintage gear, nothing beats the search engines, and nothing matches so often as cctalk and the archives of the PDP8-Lovers mailing list. Unfortunately, the PDP8-lovers list is private, and the fact that only 2/89 thru 2/95 are archived and searchable is a great loss. Fortunately, this list has largely taken up the slack, giving a place where I can find information which was more recently discussed, and pointers to resources that have some chance of still existing. I'd also note that at various times, the "public" PDP8-lovers content from 89-95 has nearly vanished due to being (nearly) single-sourced. As far as I can tell, the more recent content *has* essentially vanished. This list has always been public, and I think we all knew that, though it may have slipped our minds from time to time. I, for one, am glad of it. I also think that the list has run quite well for a long time this way (thanks again to Jay and others who make it happen!), without any problems that I am aware of, related to it's being public. A lot of the bugaboos about spam and so on just haven't materialized. (Thanks also to Google and others for the archives themselves and for obscuring our email addresses in their archives.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Tue Oct 2 10:05:21 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 08:05:21 -0700 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow": Tuesday, October 02, 2012 7:47 AM > Have you been following the "cctalk being indexed" thread? > > Do you REALLY want the entire world to know this? I don't think he knows us well enough to tell us these things in "private", either :-). Nor do I have an answer to his question, unless the special dispensation for "libraries" is relevant. Vince From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 2 10:24:39 2012 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 10:24:39 -0500 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 17:26 -0500 10/1/12, wrote: >I don't consider anything on the net private but I'm used to knowing >that the lists I'm a part of are public (usually). I also think its >a good reference for folks just like forums which I appreciate when >I can search for already solved issues without having to sign up on >their site for potentially 1 use. Seconded. I'm nowhere near as useful as most of the folks on the list, but I think of the list and its archive as an incredible resource to help out anyone interested in this hobby - of whom there are not (in my opinion) enough, and anything we can do to encourage more is a good idea. Informative posts from e.g. Tony (how do I disassemble this monitor, and where am I likely to get a nasty surprise if uninitiated?) or Fred (what's the format of this floppy that I need to read likely to be?) look to me like the essence of the list, and the quicker they are accessible to the more people, the better. If indexing helps facilitate that, right on. If indexing make me think twice about my posts, well, that may well be a good thing too. I clearly recall a post where I gave the resistor color-code *wrong* (!) because I typed way faster than I thought (and I don't type that fast...); could be if I'd remembered people might pick my post up on a google search, I'd have been a bit more careful. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 2 10:37:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 08:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121002083547.B71972@shell.lmi.net> What';s really needed is a web accessible "Maslin"! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 2 11:06:49 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 10:06:49 -0600 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This raises an interesting question.... aside from popular freeware and open source repositories, are there *any* disk images that are legal? At best what I've observed is that they might live in a qausi-legal grey area. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Oct 2 11:10:41 2012 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 18:10:41 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 16:49 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: > On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: > >> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > >> > >>> Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere > >>> in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if > >>> anyone cares. > >> > >> Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the > >> consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would > >> probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such > >> as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less > >> memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As > >> cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is > >> the easiest solution. > > > > Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M > > (3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M > > memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( . > > > > ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more > > lenient on the memory module particulars... > > > > Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of > > devaluation of that word. > > Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the > documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was wrong. > Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB max (3x > 128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in the days of > Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain slower models > of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly possible they did > something similar with memory. It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.) According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 2 11:29:40 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 10:29:40 -0600 Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: References: <186498250-1349114694-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-837632604-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , SPC writes: > That's fine. I don't like to see my messages inside the lists indexed > and available for everybody in the Internet. It's a matter of privacy. People used to also think newsgroups were "private" or "temporary" until people pointed out that there's no reasonable expectation that someone won't make a permanent archive of all messages ever posted to a newsgroup. If you don't want it "out there", then you shouldn't post it, not even in private email, is the bottom line. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 11:42:31 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 09:42:31 -0700 Subject: UNIVAC model In-Reply-To: <50537372.5010208@neurotica.com> References: <50529EB5.9070405@bitsavers.org> <5052AFAD.3000105@gorge.net> <50532689.4000205@telegraphics.com.au> <50537372.5010208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/360492715631 1960's Sperry Univac Model 418 Computer Desk Set "This is a unique desktop pen holder that features the early 1960's Sperry-Univac 418 mainframe." (I have no connection to this listing or seller) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 12:06:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:06:27 +0200 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On 2 October 2012 18:10, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > > It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.) > > According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. According to IBM, my Thinkpad 1200 series model 1163G (Pentium-IIIM) only supports a single 128MB SO-DIMM for a total of 192MB RAM. However, I bought it from a shop where I knew the staff well - I used to work there - and they let me try a variety of DIMMs in it before I took the machine. We had no difficulty finding a 256MB DIMM that worked fine. Result, 320MB RAM, enough for Windows 2000 to run well. Don't believe what manufacturers tell you. They don't always know. The only snag with my machine is that the BIOS doesn't believe the amount of RAM, so every boot, it decides the CMOS NVRAM is corrupt and zeroes it. It still boots fine but I have to put a tool in the boot sequence to set the time and date off the network. Otherwise, it runs perfectly. Today, as a veteran 11YO with a broken screen hinge, it runs Lubuntu & Crunchbang but I am considering a switch to FreeBSD. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 2 13:03:54 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 20:03:54 +0200 Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 06:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Why would you expect a configure for that system to cross-compile? Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our 800 MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target to be a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.) I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 13:11:20 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:11:20 +0000 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1465784678-1349201479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2031335004-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> I've never been fully clear on whether there is a "fair use" law regarding software (think that's what it was called) that allowed for a personal backup /copy for personal use. I've heard folks use it as their excuse on media like tapes, vhs and the argument about dvd encryption. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 10:06:49 To: cctalk Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: disk image server This raises an interesting question.... aside from popular freeware and open source repositories, are there *any* disk images that are legal? At best what I've observed is that they might live in a qausi-legal grey area. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 2 13:12:53 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:12:53 +0100 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <6A3E6629F5DB44ADAD13BD4C80045FFA@ANTONIOPC> Stefan Skoglund [stefan.skoglund at agj.net] wrote: > It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.) > > According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. DELL may do all sorts of silly things with their BIOS but I use a 440GX-based system and a 440LX-based system to both to test 168-pin SDRAM and for 5-1/4" floppy handling. Both systems work fine with 2x1GB DIMMs and 4x512MB DIMMs, both registered and unbuffered (but not mixed). They're also (I think) the only systems I have that pass the full slew of IMGDSK tests. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Oct 2 13:05:07 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 14:05:07 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 5 References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 10:29:40 -0600 > From: Richard > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: cctalk being indexed (again) > Message-ID: > > If you don't want it "out there", then you shouldn't post it, not even > in private email, is the bottom line. ----- Reply: Exactly! If the post contains useful information then it should be generally available. If it doesn't, or contains "private" info, then it doesn't belong here in the first place. Simple. mike From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 2 13:41:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 14:41:44 -0400 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 2, 2012, at 12:06 PM, Richard wrote: > This raises an interesting question.... aside from popular freeware > and open source repositories, are there *any* disk images that are > legal? > > At best what I've observed is that they might live in a qausi-legal > grey area. Certainly. Where companies have issued a blanket license for the acquisition and use of their software, there's that. DEC's PDP-11 operating system library and the historical Unices are two good examples, though they were probably not all legal images to start with). - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 2 14:18:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Nor do I have an answer to his question, unless the special dispensation > for "libraries" is relevant. While we traditionally stretch the limits of "fair use", don't count on any "special dispensation". Not everyone in the guvmint likes libraries. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/national/nationalspecial3/11patriot.html?_r=0 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Guild of Radical Militant Librarians From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 14:37:17 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: semi-OT: alternatives to common e-mail services Message-ID: <1349206637.85483.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Are there any? Of course they are limitless, for instance asking a comrade access to their server space. But barring any of that, is there any available for a modest or no fee? I hear the commercial for reagan.com, and besides the fact that I refuse to participate in the growing Reagan cult (have ample respect for the man, but please), and I'd, right now, rather not shell out 40$ a year. ?Oh I forgot, I have my own domain (indiscreetlogic.com), but haven't had the time or inclination to muss with ? it. Is there an alternative to the demoniac Yahoo!, Hotmail, Gmail in the interim? I wish to, if at all possible, avoid having my e-mails scanned (like that isn't going to happen), or having to inadvertently support causes and movements that will ultimately subjugate humanity, promote aberrant anti-social behavior, bolster the Federal Reserve, the Tri-Lateral Commission, the rise of the Anti-Christ, etc. etc. I love kittens too. No funds should be funneled into organization that fail to support the advancement, emancipation, and general well being of kittens. And honey badgers. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 2 14:40:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 15:40:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210021940.PAA05271@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Nor do I have an answer to his question, unless the special >> dispensation for "libraries" is relevant. > While we traditionally stretch the limits of "fair use", don't count > on any "special dispensation". Not everyone in the guvmint likes > libraries. But, "the guvmint" is ill-defined. Please don't forget this is an international mailing list. Fair dealing provisions are one of the aspects in which copyright law varies significantly between jurisdictions, and it's entirely possible that someone in jurisdiction ABC could entirely legally put up a disk image that would be a copyright violation if done in jursidction XYZ. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 2 14:52:49 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Nor do I have an answer to his question, unless the special dispensation >> for "libraries" is relevant. > > While we traditionally stretch the limits of "fair use", don't count on > any "special dispensation". Not everyone in the guvmint likes libraries. > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/national/nationalspecial3/11patriot.html?_r=0 > > Interestingly enough, the Library of Congress emailed me a few years ago asking permission to archive retroarchive.org. I consented of course. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 2 14:55:49 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 21:55:49 +0200 Subject: uVAX-II avaliable ( Switzerland ) In-Reply-To: <50660242.1070407@bluewin.ch> References: <5064A372.20701@bluewin.ch> <20120928210059.542111f8.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <50660242.1070407@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20121002215549.8c5e9711.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 22:02:10 +0200 Jos Dreesen wrote: > > What gives you the RD54, that the RF215 can't? > Fitting disks for my RQDX3's, that I will hang onto my PDP11's.... Pardon? If there is a RF215 in the BA123, then there will be a KFQSA too. Both KFQSA and RQDX3 talk MSCP. So there should be no device driver problem at the OS level. But I suppose that the DSSI setup will be better then the MFM stuff. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 2 14:58:34 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 2, 12 08:03:54 pm" Message-ID: <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> > > Why would you expect a configure for that system to cross-compile? > > Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB > RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our > 800 MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target > to be a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.) > > I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of > stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written... But I'd argue that's exactly what a configure script is *not* for. It's supposed to look at the system you're compiling for and adapt itself accordingly. Now, if you want something that you can force presets of another system for, that makes good sense and you can get such a package for Perl. But I think that functionality is separate from an automatic configuration system, because it's not automatic (you're manually feeding it your settings). I have to manually feed GNU autoconf so much stuff that it misdetects that there might as well not be a ./configure at all. But I've never had that issue with Perl or other "proper" configuration systems. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard ----------------------- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Oct 2 15:20:07 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 21:20:07 +0100 Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> <20121002115558.O74725@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2 October 2012 20:52, geneb wrote: >> > Interestingly enough, the Library of Congress emailed me a few years ago > asking permission to archive retroarchive.org. I consented of course. :) It doesn't seem to be there any more! Does that mean my old BBS software has been archived in the Library of Congress? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 2 16:05:03 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 23:05:03 +0200 Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: [cross compiling] > But I'd argue that's exactly what a configure script is *not* for. It's > supposed to look at the system you're compiling for and adapt itself > accordingly. Exactely. The configure system has to investigate the build environemet, the tools and the target system and adapt everything to this. "Native" compiling is only a very special case of this process, where cross compiling is the general case. The problem with Perl is, that its configuration system makes cross compiling simply impossible. There isn't even a choice to feed the build options manually into the system. > I have to manually feed GNU autoconf so much stuff that it misdetects > that there might as well not be a ./configure at all. That is so true. Every time I touch autoconf, I have to sledgehammer on it to make it work... :-((( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 2 17:41:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 17:41:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50633276.8090302@neurotica.com> <20120926102427.H22143@shell.lmi.net> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 16:49 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: >> On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: >>> m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf: >>>> >>>> Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the >>>> consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would >>>> probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media >>>> such as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having >>>> less memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, >>>> etc). As cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more >>>> memory is the easiest solution. >>> >>> Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M >>> (3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M >>> memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( . >> >> Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the >> documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was >> wrong. Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB >> max (3x 128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in >> the days of Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain >> slower models of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly >> possible they did something similar with memory. > > It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.) > > According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. The 440LX chipset itself can support 512MB of SDRAM or 1GB of EDO, but what you are running into is a density issue. The LX can handle up to 4 banks of double sided 64 Mbit x16 (128MB) modules, but Dell went with the "small memory array" design that specifies 3 DIMM sockets instead of the "large memory array" with 4 sockets. If the board is designed to spec, you might be able to add more memory if you can find some double sided, buffered EDO DIMMs, but I seem to remember those being difficult to source. See p11 and pp86-87 of the Intel 440LX 82443LX datasheet http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/290564.htm From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 2 18:26:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:26:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <1348637229.11827.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5063484E.7020004@neurotica.com> <03ECDAD5-05E1-4347-AE30-3739A2F2C55A@me.com> <201209271954.PAA15698@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201209280719.DAA18823@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201210010643.CAA28184@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1349102783.16879.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <1349194240.16879.8.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 2 October 2012 18:10, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > >> It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.) >> >> According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. > > According to IBM, my Thinkpad 1200 series model 1163G (Pentium-IIIM) > only supports a single 128MB SO-DIMM for a total of 192MB RAM. > > However, I bought it from a shop where I knew the staff well - I used to > work there - and they let me try a variety of DIMMs in it before I took > the machine. We had no difficulty finding a 256MB DIMM that worked fine. > Result, 320MB RAM, enough for Windows 2000 to run well. > > Don't believe what manufacturers tell you. They don't always know. That's interesting. Assuming that your machine has a 440MX chipset, according to the Intel 440MX datasheet and design guide, the chipset itself supports 128 Mbit modules (128 Mbit x16 = 256MB), but is limited to 256MB of system memory. Because the MX is based on the 440BX core, perhaps that 256MB limitation isn't entirely accurate? The BX chipset supports up to 4 banks of 256MB (8 rows, or 4 double sided DIMMs) vs the MX which supports only 2 banks (4 rows, or 2 double sided DIMMs). Since the 440MX appears to actually support up to 512MB of addressable memory, assuming all the signals are routed correctly, it might very well be possible to replace the chips on the motherboard with higher density chips and top the system out at 512MB. Oddly enough, the 440BX datasheet only mentions 64 Mbit modules, even though I can state for a fact that the 440BX supports 128 Mbit modules, since the machine I happen to be sitting at right now has a 440BX chipset with 128Mbit (256MB) modules installed. Tsk, tsk Intel...you need better writers ;P Intel 440MX datasheet addendum http://download.intel.com/embedded/chipsets/datasheet/273502.pdf Intel 440MX design guide http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/27350402.pdf Intel 440BX 82443BX datasheet http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/290633.htm From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 2 18:50:09 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:50:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Why would you expect a configure for that system to cross-compile? > > Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM > desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our 800 MHz, 256 > MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target to be a compile > host? (I am talking about $WORK here.) > > I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of stuff > pretty well, > if the autoconf scripts are well written... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really good at C do not have enough experience with autotools. There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that are key to making this stuff work /right/. 1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and escape stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be writing autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for awhile. 2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux based system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually be some form of Ash. 3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if test "x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" != ""'. The same goes for comparing variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" == "x$bar"', NOT 'if test "$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use 'test', not []. 4. Test your code on all of your target platforms. Most developers never bother to do this. "It works on Linux, it must be right..." It is a pain in the ass, and is the very reason I've actively hunted for older UNIX workstations. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 2 18:52:31 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2012 18:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> References: <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Why would you expect a configure for that system to cross-compile? >> >> Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB >> RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our 800 >> MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target to be >> a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.) >> >> I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of >> stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written... > > But I'd argue that's exactly what a configure script is *not* for. It's > supposed to look at the system you're compiling for and adapt itself > accordingly. > > Now, if you want something that you can force presets of another system > for, that makes good sense and you can get such a package for Perl. But > I think that functionality is separate from an automatic configuration > system, because it's not automatic (you're manually feeding it your > settings). > > I have to manually feed GNU autoconf so much stuff that it misdetects > that there might as well not be a ./configure at all. But I've never had > that issue with Perl or other "proper" configuration systems. If the autoconf script is properly written, --cache-file is the main thing you need. Many scripts don't properly handle or use config.cache for all platform specific tests, even if they should. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Oct 2 22:08:51 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 03:08:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> if the autoconf scripts are well written... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really good at > C do not have enough experience with autotools. > > There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that are key > to making this stuff work /right/. > > 1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and escape > stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be writing > autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for awhile. > > 2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux based > system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually be some form > of Ash. > > 3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use > explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if test > "x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" != ""'. The same goes for comparing > variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" == "x$bar"', NOT 'if test > "$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use 'test', not []. So, a programmer has gotten good enough at C to want to make their code portable. This was a lot of work. Now let's say they know how to write portable sh scripts. That's even harder (more arcane) than learning how to program C well, but let's argue that it has applications outside autotools and let's assume that they put in this huge effort as well. Now you say they need to learn M4, which is even more arcane than sh scripting, and is not widely used anywhere but autotools and sendmail, where (sendmail) it is the #1 thing driving people to adopt other MTAs with other configuration systems (ones not relying on M4)? No. No no no. M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the cure that is worse than the disease. You got good at autotools? Good for you. I think it's unreasonable to require a majority of C programmers to do so. All we need is some header files that tell us what libraries / features are on the target system, and some make macros that tell us what tools are on the host system. There is absolutely no reason that that should require learning 2 other programming languages. Alexey From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 3 02:27:24 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 00:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: <1465784678-1349201479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2031335004-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465784678-1349201479-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2031335004-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1349249244.16481.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: "barythrin at gmail.com" > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, 3 October 2012 2:11 AM > Subject: Re: disk image server > > I've never been fully clear on whether there is a "fair use" law > regarding software (think that's what it was called) that allowed for a > personal backup /copy for personal use. I've heard folks use it as their > excuse on media like tapes, vhs and the argument about dvd encryption. I remember read some of the legal stuff in my AmigaOS manuals it implies that you can make a working copy of your disk under US copyright law there a backup clause for computer programs see http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-digital.html but with these DCMA law throws that out the window with these copy protected disk unless you use the reverse-engineering clause to achieve interoperability between computer program tom > -----Original Message----- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 3 02:32:41 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 09:32:41 +0200 Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20121003093241.fdabb913.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 03:08:51 +0000 (UTC) Alexey Toptygin wrote: > M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the > cure that is worse than the disease. Seconded. Autoconf scripts fail so often, because it is incredibly hard and painfull to write them well. Most programmers don't have the time, patience and motivation to dive into this mess. And you need to test them on each and every platform. Unfortunately the average programmer doesn't have this extensive test facilities. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Wed Oct 3 03:04:52 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 01:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: disk image server In-Reply-To: References: <1349170270.91364.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506AFE6B.2070107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1349251492.18183.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vincent Slyngstad > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, 2 October 2012 11:05 PM > Subject: Re: disk image server > > From: "Al Kossow": Tuesday, October 02, 2012 7:47 AM >> Have you been following the "cctalk being indexed" thread? >> >> Do you REALLY want the entire world to know this? > > I don't think he knows us well enough to tell us these things in > "private", either :-). > > Nor do I have an answer to his question, unless the special dispensation for > "libraries" is relevant. > > ? Vince > I try to get my disk (physical) first-hand from direct from the manufacturers or shops I have got some of my disk (physical) second-hand came with second-hand hardware I have one (currently) CD that has about 40 disk images of games I stay away from these shovelware CD/DVDs but I am find it easy to get disk images off the internet witch may be cracked to fit the disk image format witch is were it becomes illegal --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 3 05:36:33 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 05:36:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > >>> if the autoconf scripts are well written... >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really >> good at C do not have enough experience with autotools. >> >> There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that >> are key to making this stuff work /right/. >> >> 1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and >> escape stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be >> writing autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for >> awhile. >> >> 2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux >> based system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually >> be some form of Ash. >> >> 3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use >> explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if >> test "x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" != ""'. The same goes for >> comparing variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" == "x$bar"', >> NOT 'if test "$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use 'test', not []. 4. Test your code on all of your target platforms. Most developers never bother to do this. "It works on Linux, it must be right..." It is a pain in the ass, and is the very reason I've actively hunted for older UNIX workstations. > So, a programmer has gotten good enough at C to want to make their code > portable. This was a lot of work. Now let's say they know how to write > portable sh scripts. That's even harder (more arcane) than learning how > to program C well, but let's argue that it has applications outside > autotools and let's assume that they put in this huge effort as well. > Now you say they need to learn M4, which is even more arcane than sh > scripting, and is not widely used anywhere but autotools and sendmail, > where (sendmail) it is the #1 thing driving people to adopt other MTAs > with other configuration systems (ones not relying on M4)? No. No no no. > M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the cure > that is worse than the disease. Wow, talk about a paragraph full of fallacies. So you don't like shell script and also dislike M4. Let me guess, you don't believe in learning awk or sed either? Ah, I get it, you must be a Perl coder. Portable shell scripting isn't any more difficult than C. It is /different/ than C, but once you learn /how/ to write portable shell script, you never forget it. The same goes for M4. M4 itself isn't difficult, however writing reusable, proper, autoconf macros is not a simple task. Much like awk and sed, once you know how to use M4, you find all sorts of uses for it. As for sendmail, any "seasoned sysadmin" who can't build a sendmail config file isn't a seasoned sysadmin. No, the reason people are switching to other MTAs such as Exim is sendmail's root UID requirements and aging codebase. In most cases, autoconf, libtool, etc provide everything a basic build system will need, however if you have sufficient need for a special case test, you are probably (hopefully?) going to also spend the time to properly implement the autoconf macro(s). If someone isn't willing to spend the time on it to do it right, and/or if someone is too lazy to learn autotools/autoconf to properly implement a build system using them, then IMO they shouldn't attempt to use autoconf, etc, to begin with, period. I'd further argue that someone who is unable and/or *unwilling* to learn something as basic as portable shell scripting and M4 probably isn't all that great of C programmer to begin with. I'll even take that a step further and state that anyone who would argue otherwise probably isn't a veteran UNIX programmer, much less one who knows the ins and outs of writing portable C code. [Anyone can take a C programming class and learn some theory, but writing truly portable code is something that is learned hands-on and not so much in the classroom.] > You got good at autotools? Good for you. I think it's unreasonable to > require a majority of C programmers to do so. All we need is some header > files that tell us what libraries / features are on the target system, > and some make macros that tell us what tools are on the host system. > There is absolutely no reason that that should require learning 2 other > programming languages. "All we need is some header files that tell us what libraries / features are on the target system, and some make macros that tell us what tools are on the host system." Header files? Oh yeah, sure...that'll work. BSD? SysV? POSIX? C? Which C? ANSI C? Pfft. What do you think autoconf actually /does/? Why do you think autoconf (and similar build tools) ever came to exist? Sure...let's just check header files and test for a few tools...sure :) Better still, hit the books and learn something. http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/tpop/ http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Programming-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Computing/dp/020161586X http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/ http://www.amazon.com/Autoconf-Automake-Libtool-Gary-Vaughn/dp/1578701902 From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 3 05:49:09 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 05:49:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <20121003093241.fdabb913.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20121003093241.fdabb913.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the cure >> that is worse than the disease. > > Seconded. Autoconf scripts fail so often, because it is incredibly hard > and painfull to write them well. Most programmers don't have the time, > patience and motivation to dive into this mess. Autoconf scripts aren't difficult to implement if you take the time to read autoconf's documentation. Pretty much everything is documented, and the docs aren't even half bad. Combine that with autobook, and I think pretty much anyone could get the basics down pretty fast. http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/ http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/ > And you need to test them on each and every platform. Unfortunately the > average programmer doesn't have this extensive test facilities. Which is why many developers share such resources. From markyorath at googlemail.com Tue Oct 2 21:14:54 2012 From: markyorath at googlemail.com (mark yorath) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 03:14:54 +0100 Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available Message-ID: hi, do you still have these video disks for sale? regards mark From vaxorcist at googlemail.com Wed Oct 3 06:42:10 2012 From: vaxorcist at googlemail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans=2DUlrich_H=F6lscher?=) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 13:42:10 +0200 Subject: DMC11 at Ebay Message-ID: Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? I'd just like to know who else (besides me of course) is interested in that very special old DDCMP communication adapter. I cannot imagine that any DMCs are still in productive use today, so there's probably another collector out there somewhere ... I would be nice to get in contact with that special person (no matter who wins the auction) to exchange experience. My motivation to own a DMC11 is to run DDCMP DECnet under VMS V2.x (no Ethernet support with VMS V2.0 yet) on my VAX-11/750. There are still some lesser problems to overcome, e.g. obtaining DECnet for VMS V2.x ;-)) I know the bidder might as well (or even with greater probability) want the DMC11 for his/her PDP-11 rather than for a VAX. Maybe one day some crazy collectors will connect their VAXen or PDP-11s via DMC11s and dial-up lines every now and then? Regards, Ulli From radioengr at gmail.com Wed Oct 3 20:57:09 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:57:09 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just to judge the quality of the documentation and to get a rough idea about the size of the task. I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch ROM microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register, IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions correctly - maybe more. My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the microcode unchanged. When that is working well enough, we can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have plenty of unused address space to add microcode support for the on-board peripherals. If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any way, please let me know off-list. Rob. doyle at cox dot net From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 01:39:37 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 01:39:37 -0500 Subject: Toronto: APL@50 Message-ID: Hello language fans - I've been notified that the folks at York University in Toronto are celebrating the 50th anniversary of the APL programming language on November 1 of this year. The event is dedicated to the 50th anniversary of APL and will include invited lectures, exhibits, demos, movies, etc. They sent me a PDF flyer which I have posted here: chiclassiccomp.org/apl50invite.pdf Too far and too soon for me but I hope someone on the list can make it! -- jht From markyorath at googlemail.com Thu Oct 4 03:52:26 2012 From: markyorath at googlemail.com (mark yorath) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 09:52:26 +0100 Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: how much would you want for them and economy shipping to uk.. thanks mark On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 3:23 AM, N0body H0me wrote: > As a matter of fact, I do. > Two, new, in original wrapping. > > I'm in Stockton, Ca, 95207. > > > Jeff > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: markyorath at googlemail.com >> Sent: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 03:14:54 +0100 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: SONY LVM-3AA0 Carts Available >> >> hi, do you still have these video disks for sale? >> >> regards >> mark > > ____________________________________________________________ > FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop! > Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 4 11:49:05 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 17:49:05 +0100 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> Rob, I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Doyle > Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA > > I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. > > I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just to judge the > quality of the documentation and to get a rough idea about the size of the > task. > > I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch ROM > microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register, > IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works > well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions correctly - > maybe more. > > My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the microcode > unchanged. When that is working well enough, we > can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only > implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have plenty of unused > address space to add microcode support for the on-board peripherals. > > If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog and/or FPGA > design, goofing around, or participating in any way, please let me know off- > list. > > Rob. > doyle at cox dot net From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 4 12:10:04 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 10:10:04 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: With a KS10 you're limited on the version of TOPS-20 that you can run, I believe the max version is around V4.01. It can run TOPS-10 V7.04, and ITS. IIRC, only ITS supported networking on the KS10. With the KL10B you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and have DECnet and TCP/IP support. Zane At 5:49 PM +0100 10/4/12, Rob Jarratt wrote: >Rob, > >I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would >love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I >might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can >contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the >later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions >particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL. > >Regards > >Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Doyle >> Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA >> >> I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. >> >> I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just to judge the >> quality of the documentation and to get a rough idea about the size of the >> task. >> >> I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch ROM >> microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register, >> IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works >> well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions correctly - >> maybe more. >> >> My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the microcode >> unchanged. When that is working well enough, we >> can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only >> implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have plenty of unused >> address space to add microcode support for the on-board peripherals. >> >> If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog and/or FPGA >> design, goofing around, or participating in any way, please let me know >off- >> list. >> >> Rob. >> doyle at cox dot net -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From lists at loomcom.com Thu Oct 4 12:18:41 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 10:18:41 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> On Oct 3, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. [...] > If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog > and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any > way, please let me know off-list. David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him. Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :( -Seth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 4 12:27:29 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 11:27:29 -0600 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <506DC701.6090501@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/4/2012 11:18 AM, Seth Morabito wrote: > Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, > and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no > mirror :( Where have we heard that story from. Loss of small intesting sites is real problem with the net. > -Seth > The best I can find is this. http://hackaday.com/2011/07/29/putting-a-pdp-10-on-an-fpga/ Wayback machine might have it if you knew the URL. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 4 12:53:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:53:30 -0400 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <506DCD1A.3020105@neurotica.com> On 10/04/2012 01:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him. > > Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :( Three cheers for "free" (but still commercial) content hosting services, whee! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 4 13:10:13 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 11:10:13 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506DCD1A.3020105@neurotica.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <78E5FBC4-FA1F-4B62-88C4-49753CA864B8@loomcom.com> <506DCD1A.3020105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 1:53 PM -0400 10/4/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on >homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that service earlier this >year. I know of no mirror :( > > Three cheers for "free" (but still commercial) content hosting >services, whee! I never viewed .Mac/MobileMe as "free" hosting, but then web hosting was the main reason I had a family account. I used it to host the Libraries website, and some other stuff. Thankfully by the time they went away I was able to move the domains back to my personal server. I rather valued the service, iCloud on the other hand is a steaming pile of garbage! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 4 13:58:04 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 18:58:04 +0000 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259690B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 10:10 AM At 5:49 PM +0100 10/4/12, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> From: Rob Doyle >>> Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57 >>> I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. >> Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the later versions of >> TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions particularly >> as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL. > With a KS10 you're limited on the version of TOPS-20 that you can > run, I believe the max version is around V4.01. It can run TOPS-10 > V7.04, and ITS. IIRC, only ITS supported networking on the KS10. Yes, the KS is limited to TOPS-20 v4.1 (no double-digit version nos. for TOPS-20), although my late friend once got 5.4 (with TCP/IP) running on one. That work was lost more than 20 years ago. ITS supports TCP/IP, but only over Chaosnet, as far as I can tell. > With the KL10B you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and have DECnet and > TCP/IP support. No TCP/IP on standard Tops-10, although I am informed by a reliable source that it was done for v7.02, where it ran over ANF-10. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 4 14:36:34 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 12:36:34 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259690B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259690B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: At 6:58 PM +0000 10/4/12, Rich Alderson wrote: >Yes, the KS is limited to TOPS-20 v4.1 (no double-digit version nos. for >TOPS-20), although my late friend once got 5.4 (with TCP/IP) running on >one. That work was lost more than 20 years ago. Thanks for the clarification, I really couldn't remember if I was right on the v4.1. >ITS supports TCP/IP, but only over Chaosnet, as far as I can tell. Good point! > > With the KL10B you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and have DECnet and >> TCP/IP support. > >No TCP/IP on standard Tops-10, although I am informed by a reliable >source that it was done for v7.02, where it ran over ANF-10. I'm glad you noted that, as that was what I meant, and I should have been clearer. TCP/IP on TOP-10 would be seriously cool, though I think I'd rather see it on RSTS/E. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 4 14:44:10 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:44:10 -0600 Subject: ADDS Envoy pictures added to terminals wiki Message-ID: Portable terminal from 1972... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From bub7734 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 15:52:05 2012 From: bub7734 at yahoo.com (Scott G Taylor) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 13:52:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1349383925.58507.YahooMailNeo@web111409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > On Oct 3, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle wrote: > > > I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. > > [...] > > > If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog > > and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any > > way, please let me know off-list. > > David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full > working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email > him. > > Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple > discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :( > > -Seth ? David's work has moved to: ??????? http://fpgaretrocomputing.org/pdp10x/ ? -scott ~ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 4 16:07:55 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 14:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DMC11 at Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2012, Hans-Ulrich H?lscher wrote: > Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? > > I'd just like to know who else (besides me of course) is interested in > that very special old DDCMP communication adapter. I cannot imagine > that any DMCs are still in productive use today, so there's probably > another collector out there somewhere ... My mental preprocessor expanded DMC11 to "Delorean Motor Company 11" and I though "Err, it was actually called the "DMC12"". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 4 16:19:05 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 17:19:05 -0400 Subject: DMC11 at Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506DFD49.5030904@neurotica.com> On 10/03/2012 07:42 AM, Hans-Ulrich H?lscher wrote: > Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? It's not me, but I hung out with one of the designers of that board last week, and got a bunch of neat hardware from him. (a Pro/380 with stacks of docs and floppies, a few desktop VAXen, etc) > Maybe one day some crazy collectors will connect their VAXen or > PDP-11s via DMC11s and dial-up lines every now and then? I would love that! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From phil+ccmp at ultimate.com Thu Oct 4 17:20:24 2012 From: phil+ccmp at ultimate.com (Phil Budne <) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:20:24 -0400 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506e0ba8.Dh0zP8acO+e+EQSq%phil+ccmp@ultimate.com> > Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:57:09 -0700 > From: Rob Doyle .... > I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA. .... > My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the > microcode unchanged. When that is working well enough, we > can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only > implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have > plenty of unused address space to add microcode support for > the on-board peripherals. KLH10's KS simulation includes emulation of the ACC LH/DH IMP interface, so Internet connectivity could be an option! > If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog > and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any > way, please let me know off-list. I wish I had the time/focus to spare! phil From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 4 19:44:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 17:44:23 -0700 Subject: Dandelions Message-ID: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221130342261 very nice systems, too. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 19:55:55 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 17:55:55 -0700 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> On 10/4/2012 5:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221130342261 > > very nice systems, too. > I had a few of these way back when but, never saw all the docs and software together like that. That's a nice collection. Is all that stuff on Bitsavers already ? From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Oct 4 19:56:12 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 00:56:12 +0000 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25969BD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 5:44 PM > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221130342261 > very nice systems, too. Were you the winning bidder? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 19:56:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 20:56:47 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some CR-563-B CD drives? Message-ID: <1F518006-81B9-41A1-8DB8-4F18C7F9DA91@gmail.com> Hey all, These are a sorta-proprietary Panasonic interface CD drive that was found on a number of PC ISA sound cards. I have a pair of them and possibly the sound cards to control them (though I have an inclination to hold on to those for personal reasons). I realize this is teetering dangerously on the edge of "crappy '90s PCs" rather than true classic computing, but one man's trash is another man's treasure (unless it was made by Packard Bell). Free if you'll pay shipping. I owe some people some FileMaker boxes, and I haven't forgotten, but it's been at the back of my queue. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 19:57:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 20:57:39 -0400 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives Message-ID: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> I have a number of 5.25" PC floppy drives that have sat in boxes in my parents' basement for years (reasonably well climate controlled, drives never got flooded, etc.) Media preservation isn't really my thing, since I don't have or come across a lot of media to preserve, but I figure four or five 5.25" drives could find a good home through this list. They worked last time they were tested, and I might be persuaded to test them again if necessary. I even have a 5.25"/3.5" dual drive, though its cosmetic components are beginning to wear a bit. Same deal, free for price of shipping. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 4 20:08:56 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:08:56 -0700 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25969BD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB25969BD@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <506E3328.70802@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/12 5:56 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 5:44 PM > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221130342261 > >> very nice systems, too. > > Were you the winning bidder? > nope. I know who #2 was, though. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 4 20:11:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:11:19 -0700 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506E33B7.1050809@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/12 5:55 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/4/2012 5:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221130342261 >> >> very nice systems, too. >> > > I had a few of these way back when but, never saw all the docs and software together like that. That's a nice collection. Is all that stuff on Bitsavers already ? > I don't think I've uploaded it all. A while back I was given most of the Interlisp-D floppy revisions and documents when Venue shut down in Redwood City. Those eBay 1108s were very late rev. 80mb drives and Fuji/Xerox keyboards and monitors. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 4 20:27:28 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:27:28 -0700 Subject: Anyone want some CR-563-B CD drives? In-Reply-To: <1F518006-81B9-41A1-8DB8-4F18C7F9DA91@gmail.com> References: <1F518006-81B9-41A1-8DB8-4F18C7F9DA91@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506E3780.8070105@sydex.com> On 10/04/2012 05:56 PM, David Riley wrote: > Hey all, > > These are a sorta-proprietary Panasonic interface CD drive that was > found on a number of PC ISA sound cards. I have a pair of them and > possibly the sound cards to control them (though I have an inclination > to hold on to those for personal reasons). > > I realize this is teetering dangerously on the edge of "crappy '90s > PCs" rather than true classic computing, but one man's trash is > another man's treasure (unless it was made by Packard Bell). Do you want this posted on Erik's VCF? You'll probably get some interest there. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 20:35:35 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:35:35 -0700 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E33B7.1050809@bitsavers.org> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> <506E33B7.1050809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <506E3967.9010806@gmail.com> On 10/4/2012 6:11 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I don't think I've uploaded it all. A while back I was given most of > the Interlisp-D floppy revisions and documents > when Venue shut down in Redwood City. > > Those eBay 1108s were very late rev. 80mb drives and Fuji/Xerox > keyboards and monitors. > Too bad there isn't an emulator for the Xerox boxes. Or is there ? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 4 21:16:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 19:16:19 -0700 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E3967.9010806@gmail.com> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> <506E33B7.1050809@bitsavers.org> <506E3967.9010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506E42F3.3050506@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/12 6:35 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Too bad there isn't an emulator for the Xerox boxes. Or is there ? > not for 8000s. There was Don Woodward's "dawn" for the 6086. http://www.woodward.org/mps/ From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 22:54:35 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 20:54:35 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> On 10/4/2012 9:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Rob, > > I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would > love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I > might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can > contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the > later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions > particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL. > > Regards I looked at the KL, the KS10, and the Foonly docs before deciding. I chose the KS10 simply because I think I can implement it in an FPGA. I used a KA10 so my experience with TOPS-20, DECnet, and paging is nil. Having said that; there is nothing wrong with adding KL features to the KS. Half of the microcode address space is unused on a KS so we can easily double the amount of microcode, if necessary. We can easily add hardware, too. For the experts out there: What exactly are the architectural differences between a KS and KL? Why does TOPS-20 and DECnet only run on a KL? What would need to be added to a KS to support DECnet, etc? I guess it never occurred to me that the applications and OS supported by a KS and KL would be different... Rob. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 23:16:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 00:16:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone want some CR-563-B CD drives? In-Reply-To: <506E3780.8070105@sydex.com> References: <1F518006-81B9-41A1-8DB8-4F18C7F9DA91@gmail.com> <506E3780.8070105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <833D0802-71AE-410D-81D1-2CE419EEEA79@gmail.com> On Oct 4, 2012, at 9:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/04/2012 05:56 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Hey all, >> >> These are a sorta-proprietary Panasonic interface CD drive that was >> found on a number of PC ISA sound cards. I have a pair of them and >> possibly the sound cards to control them (though I have an inclination >> to hold on to those for personal reasons). >> >> I realize this is teetering dangerously on the edge of "crappy '90s >> PCs" rather than true classic computing, but one man's trash is >> another man's treasure (unless it was made by Packard Bell). > > Do you want this posted on Erik's VCF? You'll probably get some interest there. > > --Chuck Hm, I'm actually a member there, but I haven't been around in a while. Thanks for the reminder! I'll give that a shot. - Dave From david at classiccomputing.com Thu Oct 4 23:22:14 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 00:22:14 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits Message-ID: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> This is my theme and blurb I came up with: "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? retrocomputing kits: Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and others FIGnition Digi-Comp I Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer Accessory kits: CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET Help. Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Lecturer, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 4 23:27:10 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:27:10 -0600 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Rob Doyle wrote: > What exactly are the architectural differences between a KS and KL? The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model B".[*] The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them, for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8 Mwords. Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works, introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds complications to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT instruction, among other things. The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were not designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple section support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system programmer's perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A. The later versions of TOPS-20 simply got too big to fit well on a single-section machine. Eric [*] Note that the "Model A" and "Model B" terminology does not directly correlate with a letter suffix on a KL10 ordering code, like KL10-A. In fact, the KL10-A, KL10-B, KL10-BC, and KL10-C were all equipped with the "Model A" APR ("Arithmetic PRocessor, which anyone else calls CPU), while the KL10-D, KL10-E, and KL10-R were equipped with the "Model B" APR. It gets even more complicated when field upgrades are considered. In hardware terms, the "Model A" has a KL10-PA APR. The "Model B" as a KL10-PV or (later) KL10-PW APR. In addition to the multisection support, the KL10-PV also runs at a higher clock frequency than the KL10-PA. The KL10-PW (standard in 1095 and 2065 systems, or available as an upgrade from the KL10-PV) has a larger cache and larger pager TLB, so it increases the performance slightly more, but doesn't change the programmer's model significantly. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 23:40:39 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 00:40:39 -0400 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > The later versions of TOPS-20 simply got too big to fit well on a > single-section machine. Could it fit into the ADP KS-10s? They were RPQ'd to have twice as much RAM as a stock machine (and a shit brown paint scheme, too). -- Will From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Oct 5 00:24:29 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 01:24:29 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: Are you including circuit boards? I'm building an N8VEM right now. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-05, at 12:22 AM, David Greelish wrote: > This is my theme and blurb I came up with: > > "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." > > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? > > retrocomputing kits: > > Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and others > FIGnition > Digi-Comp I > Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer > > Accessory kits: > > CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II > IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 > ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives > PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET > > Help. > > Best, > > David Greelish > - Computer Historian, Author, Lecturer, Blogger & Podcaster > - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society > > Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 > > http://about.me/davidgreelish From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 5 00:34:25 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:34:25 -0600 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <506E7161.1060905@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Could it fit into the ADP KS-10s? They were RPQ'd to have twice as > much RAM as a stock machine (and a shit brown paint scheme, too). -- Will They still didn't support sections, so the per-process memory was still limited to 256kW (one moby). Similarly, the KL10 Model A supported up to 4MW of physical memory, but per-process was limited to one moby. DEC never shipped any multisection PDP-10 processors other than the KL10 Model B. Had it not been cancelled, Jupiter would have had multisection support. I'm not sure about Dophin and Minnow. From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 16:37:50 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 15:37:50 -0600 Subject: Which vax-vms license for a microvax II with VCB-02? In-Reply-To: References: , , <20120724203222.f143a625.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , , , <20120725083943.588bcf94.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Message-ID: I've been wracking my brain over which license I need for VMS 5.2 on a microvax-II with a VCB-02 graphics module installed? I understand that I could just use the hobbyist licenses, but I bought the system with a legitimate VMS license and want to keep it as close to the original configuration as possible (I have other microvax systems with hobbyist 7.x). Unfortunately there is no vmslicense/charge like you have with vms 5.3 and beyond. I'm testing by connecting up a terminal to a serial port (not the console, thats a different problem, won't work with VCB-02 installed unless you are in debug), and trying to log in. Right now I'm getting license exceeded. I figured I would just need a workstation license, but this doesn't seem to have worked. Kevin From jmkatcher at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 18:41:21 2012 From: jmkatcher at yahoo.com (Jeffrey Katcher) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 16:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA Message-ID: <1349394081.44154.YahooMailNeo@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> David Conroy's site is now at http://fpgaretrocomputing.org/ From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Oct 4 18:48:55 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 19:48:55 -0400 Subject: DMC11 at Ebay Message-ID: > From: "Hans-Ulrich H?lscher" > Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 13:42:10 +0200 > Subject: DMC11 at Ebay > Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? > > I'd just like to know who else (besides me of course) is interested in > that very special old DDCMP communication adapter. I cannot imagine > that any DMCs are still in productive use today, so there's probably > another collector out there somewhere ... > > I would be nice to get in contact with that special person (no matter > who wins the auction) to exchange experience. > > My motivation to own a DMC11 is to run DDCMP DECnet under VMS V2.x > (no Ethernet support with VMS V2.0 yet) on my VAX-11/750. There are > still some lesser problems to overcome, e.g. obtaining DECnet for VMS > V2.x ;-)) > > I know the bidder might as well (or even with greater probability) > want the DMC11 for his/her PDP-11 rather than for a VAX. > > Maybe one day some crazy collectors will connect their VAXen or > PDP-11s via DMC11s and dial-up lines every now and then? > > Regards, > > Ulli I have a DMC11 that I plan to install in a PDP-10 KS10 so I can run DECnet to a VAX. I even have a synchronous null modem. -- Michael Thompson From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Oct 5 02:11:02 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 09:11:02 +0200 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <506E8806.5070808@update.uu.se> On 10/05/2012 06:22 AM, David Greelish wrote: > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? > > retrocomputing kits: > > Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and others > FIGnition > Digi-Comp I > Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer What about the 1802 membership card: http://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/memship.html > Accessory kits: > > CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II > IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 > ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives > PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET > Not sure what the status of xt-ide is: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 /P From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Oct 5 02:43:05 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 08:43:05 +0100 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On 5 October 2012 05:22, David Greelish wrote: > Accessory kits: > > CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II > IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 > ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives > PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET > Over this side of the pond, in line with it's heritage of promoting easy hobbiest add-ons, there is lots of stuff for the BBC Micro - from Commodore SID chip add-ons, through SD/MMC card storage implemented with half a dozen discretes, right up to the Retroclinic Datacentre that provides mass storage and USB slave & host capabilities - http://www.retroclinic.com/acorn/datacentre/datacentre.htm Rob From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 02:48:08 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 00:48:08 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <506E90B8.2070508@gmail.com> I think I noticed some differences to some of the Exec Mode instructions. I assume that those will need to be reconciled, also. With an FPGA, adding additional data paths later probably won't be a problem. I'm guessing that other things like memory and IO is going drive the FPGA size - not the routing resources. No matter how they are implemented, the additional page tables will require FPGA memory, so I should probably plan on them.* *I spent some time earlier reviewing the "Minnow" design which also supported 32 sections. It is a pretty minimalistic hardware approach and relies heavily on microcode. I also have Mike Euler's paper on Extended Addressing which seems to describe these issues in great detail. Thanks Rob. On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Rob Doyle wrote: >> What exactly are the architectural differences between a KS and KL? > > > The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model B".[*] > > The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user > address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B > adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the > logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them, > for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8 > Mwords. > > Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works, > introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds complications > to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT instruction, among other > things. > > The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were not > designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple section > support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system programmer's > perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A. > > The later versions of TOPS-20 simply got too big to fit well on a > single-section machine. > > Eric > > > > > [*] Note that the "Model A" and "Model B" terminology does not directly > correlate with a letter suffix on a KL10 ordering code, like KL10-A. In > fact, the KL10-A, KL10-B, KL10-BC, and KL10-C were all equipped with the > "Model A" APR ("Arithmetic PRocessor, which anyone else calls CPU), > while the KL10-D, KL10-E, and KL10-R were equipped with the "Model B" > APR. It gets even more complicated when field upgrades are considered. > > In hardware terms, the "Model A" has a KL10-PA APR. The "Model B" as a > KL10-PV or (later) KL10-PW APR. In addition to the multisection > support, the KL10-PV also runs at a higher clock frequency than the > KL10-PA. The KL10-PW (standard in 1095 and 2065 systems, or available > as an upgrade from the KL10-PV) has a larger cache and larger pager TLB, > so it increases the performance slightly more, but doesn't change the > programmer's model significantly. > > From tingox at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 03:29:45 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 10:29:45 +0200 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:57 AM, David Riley wrote: > I have a number of 5.25" PC floppy drives that have sat in boxes > in my parents' basement for years (reasonably well climate > controlled, drives never got flooded, etc.) Media preservation > isn't really my thing, since I don't have or come across a lot of > media to preserve, but I figure four or five 5.25" drives could > find a good home through this list. They worked last time they > were tested, and I might be persuaded to test them again if > necessary. I even have a 5.25"/3.5" dual drive, though its > cosmetic components are beginning to wear a bit. > > Same deal, free for price of shipping. Shipping from where? Which country? (Yes, globalisation is hard) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From ats at offog.org Fri Oct 5 04:36:04 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 10:36:04 +0100 Subject: Buss Farm and Flossie Message-ID: <20121005093604.GA3210@cartman.at.offog.org> Hi all, I've just spotted this story on BBC News: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19819288 Retrocomputing enthusiasts may recognise Buss Farm as the home of Flossie, Roger Holmes' 50-year-old ICT 1301: http://ict1301.co.uk/ Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 05:18:14 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 10:18:14 +0000 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <1054030568-1349432298-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1663730967-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Grant's altairkit (replica) Imsai series 2 (in limbo/about to be Vince's) Not vintage but arduino/propeller kits, raspberry pi. I can't remember the name but there was also that pdp panel/fpga project or emulator interface wasn't there? -----Original Message----- From: David Greelish Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 00:22:14 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Retro computer kits This is my theme and blurb I came up with: "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? retrocomputing kits: Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and others FIGnition Digi-Comp I Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer Accessory kits: CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET Help. Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Lecturer, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 05:20:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 05:20:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <506E8806.5070808@update.uu.se> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> <506E8806.5070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Pontus wrote: > On 10/05/2012 06:22 AM, David Greelish wrote: > >> Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you >> can actually buy to build now? > Not sure what the status of xt-ide is: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 Active. Andrew Lynch has been shipping out version 2 PC boards for people build their own. I'm going to be assembling a number of these for my own systems as soon as I clear my bench of the current batch of projects. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Fri Oct 5 07:31:54 2012 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 08:31:54 -0400 Subject: Dandelions In-Reply-To: <506E3967.9010806@gmail.com> References: <506E2D67.2070903@bitsavers.org> <506E301B.3070606@gmail.com> <506E33B7.1050809@bitsavers.org> <506E3967.9010806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121005120255.M63161@kw.igs.net> On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 18:35:35 -0700, mc68010 wrote > Too bad there isn't an emulator for the Xerox boxes. Or is there ? There is a binary of a Xerox Lisp emulator (simulator?) with a non-commercial use license for various platforms available at . -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 07:40:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 08:40:30 -0400 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> On Oct 5, 2012, at 4:29 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 2:57 AM, David Riley wrote: >> I have a number of 5.25" PC floppy drives that have sat in boxes >> in my parents' basement for years (reasonably well climate >> controlled, drives never got flooded, etc.) Media preservation >> isn't really my thing, since I don't have or come across a lot of >> media to preserve, but I figure four or five 5.25" drives could >> find a good home through this list. They worked last time they >> were tested, and I might be persuaded to test them again if >> necessary. I even have a 5.25"/3.5" dual drive, though its >> cosmetic components are beginning to wear a bit. >> >> Same deal, free for price of shipping. > > Shipping from where? Which country? > (Yes, globalisation is hard) Man, I should have known better than to forget details. Shipping from USA (Philadelphia, if it matters). I don't know the specifics of the drives at the moment, but they were all pulled from 386 or later PCs, if that gives an idea. I'll go through the box and post a list of mfg/part numbers later today when I can go through the box. - Dave From david at classiccomputing.com Fri Oct 5 09:35:32 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 09:35:32 -0500 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> > Are you including circuit boards? I'm building an N8VEM right now. Thanks Paul! I had forgotten about that one, and I do think it's relevant. There are certainly different levels of kits, difficulty and what's included. Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 09:44:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97A2437D-1BB9-4797-AC6C-2270866FD6C8@gmail.com> On Oct 4, 2012, at 8:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > I have a number of 5.25" PC floppy drives that have sat in boxes > in my parents' basement for years (reasonably well climate > controlled, drives never got flooded, etc.) Media preservation > isn't really my thing, since I don't have or come across a lot of > media to preserve, but I figure four or five 5.25" drives could > find a good home through this list. They worked last time they > were tested, and I might be persuaded to test them again if > necessary. I even have a 5.25"/3.5" dual drive, though its > cosmetic components are beginning to wear a bit. OK, here's a list of the drives. Shipping is from ZIP code 19146 in the USA. Toshiba ND-0801GR (1.2M) Chinon FR-506 (1.2M) Fujitsu M2553 (1.2M) Panasonic JU-475-5 (1.2M) Newtronics D509V (1.2M) Looks like they're all 1.2M, so apologies for those looking for low-density drives are out of luck here. The dual drive is in another box somewhere, so I'll have to look for that, but if anyone wants any of the above, I'll be glad to send 'em on. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 5 11:24:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 09:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > Man, I should have known better than to forget details. Shipping > from USA (Philadelphia, if it matters). I don't know the specifics > of the drives at the moment, but they were all pulled from 386 or > later PCs, if that gives an idea. I'll go through the box and post > a list of mfg/part numbers later today when I can go through the > box. If it is convenient to post the model numbers, we can probably identify them. The source/vintage makes tham all probably "1.2M" (anybody who wants to argue the impreciseness of that designation can come up with a CONCISE (not paragraph long) and unambiguous name for that type of drive) If any of them have an asterisk embossed on the front, those are "360K" drives made during the time of "1.2M" drives. The dual drive is presumably "1.2M/1.4M", although other [R at RE] configurations, even 360K/720K did exist. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Oct 5 12:42:39 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:42:39 +0000 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E90B8.2070508@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> <506E90B8.2070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2596CC5@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Rob Doyle Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 12:48 AM > I think I noticed some differences to some of the Exec Mode > instructions. I assume that those will need to be reconciled, also. The I/O instructions, specifically, differ madly. The KL-10 uses the I/O instruction model which was created for the PDP-6, although it supports far fewer device types than the 166, KA, or KI: <7><7 bit device code><3 bit op code> The KS-10 uses a much simpler model, with different 9-bit opcodes (all beginning with <7>) affecting different states of the machine. Because the KS has a Unibus (yeah, PDP-11), the memory-model I/O is part of the different instruction set. > With an FPGA, adding additional data paths later probably won't be a > problem. I'm guessing that other things like memory and IO is going > drive the FPGA size - not the routing resources. No matter how they > are implemented, the additional page tables will require FPGA memory, > so I should probably plan on them. Are you planning to put all of memory into the FPGA? Because the PDP-10 operating systems manipulate the page tables, so they need to be in main memory. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 5 13:22:01 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 13:22:01 -0500 Subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <20121002082824.950b0590.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021321.q92DLWJq17432780@floodgap.com> <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <201210051826.q95IPx9p019589@billy.ezwind.net> At 10:08 PM 10/2/2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >There is absolutely no reason that that should require learning 2 other programming languages. You must be new here. - John From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 5 14:25:07 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:25:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, David Greelish wrote: > This is my theme and blurb I came up with: > > "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." > > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? > > retrocomputing kits: > > Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and others > FIGnition > Digi-Comp I > Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer > > Accessory kits: > > CFFA3000 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Apple II > IDE64 CompactFlash reader / IDE for Commodore 64 > ZoomFloppy for Commodore disk drives > PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET I'm almost ready to start a Kickstarter project to finance a new round of P112 kits. See http://661.org/p112 for a description of the thing. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Oct 5 14:34:57 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 08:34:57 +1300 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> References: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Message-ID: Not sure this is relevant as it seem to be available already assembled. The Acorn BBC Micro B Master MMC solid state disk drive http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/New4Old/ctorwy31_MMCKIT.html I've just got one of these for my BBC b. I've yet to try it out. Terry (Tez) On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 3:35 AM, David Greelish wrote: > > Are you including circuit boards? I'm building an N8VEM right now. > > Thanks Paul! I had forgotten about that one, and I do think it's relevant. > There are certainly different levels of kits, difficulty and what's > included. > > Best, > > David Greelish > - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster > - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society > > Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 > > http://about.me/davidgreelish > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Oct 5 14:50:40 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 08:50:40 +1300 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Message-ID: How about Lisa stuff? The IDEfile ( http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/patrick/idefile.htm) and the X/Profile (http://sigmasevensystems.com/xprofile.html#about) Terry (Tez) On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Not sure this is relevant as it seem to be available already assembled. > The Acorn BBC Micro B Master MMC solid state disk drive > > http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/New4Old/ctorwy31_MMCKIT.html > > I've just got one of these for my BBC b. I've yet to try it out. > > Terry (Tez) > > > On Sat, Oct 6, 2012 at 3:35 AM, David Greelish > wrote: > >> > Are you including circuit boards? I'm building an N8VEM right now. >> >> Thanks Paul! I had forgotten about that one, and I do think it's relevant. >> There are certainly different levels of kits, difficulty and what's >> included. >> >> Best, >> >> David Greelish >> - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster >> - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society >> >> Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 >> >> http://about.me/davidgreelish >> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 5 14:55:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 12:55:23 -0700 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> References: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Message-ID: <506F3B2B.6020004@sydex.com> Where are you drawing the line? There are a considerable number of vintage designs implemented in FPGA, for example. Are those "vintage" in the sense that you mean it? --Chuck From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 15:05:05 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:05:05 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:22 AM, David Greelish wrote: > This is my theme and blurb I came up with: > > "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will > give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how > the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing > hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." > > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that > you can actually buy to build now? > There seems to be a lot of C64 music-related hardware stuff people are cooking up. There's the (preassembled) MSSIAH cart that turns a C64 into a midi-controlled synth module, also available from the site is a SID2SID circuit board kit that lets you add a second SID chip to a C64. http://www.8bitventures.com/ Also, the Bell CARDIAC might count: http://www.porticus.org/bell/belllabs_kits_cardiac.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 5 15:16:58 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 13:16:58 -0700 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <506F3B2B.6020004@sydex.com> References: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> <506F3B2B.6020004@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 12:55 PM -0700 10/5/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Where are you drawing the line? There are a considerable number of >vintage designs implemented in FPGA, for example. > >Are those "vintage" in the sense that you mean it? > >--Chuck The list is definitely missing some great Commodore related hardware. Turbo Chameleon 64 -- I must confess, I want one! (I have the older MMC Replay w/RR-Net) http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm Jim Brain's stuff -- I'm a big fan of his work, and see something new I need to find $$$'s for (I have his uIEC/SD) http://store.go4retro.com/ Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 5 15:22:40 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 13:22:40 -0700 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: At 4:05 PM -0400 10/5/12, Jason McBrien wrote: >There seems to be a lot of C64 music-related hardware stuff people are >cooking up. > >There's the (preassembled) MSSIAH cart that turns a C64 into a >midi-controlled synth module, also available from the site is a SID2SID >circuit board kit that lets you add a second SID chip to a C64. >http://www.8bitventures.com/ That's cool! I knew about PROPHET64, but not MSSIAH. Someone should maintain a list of all these great projects! Has anyone created anything to allow us to plug things like a Commodore 64 or Apple ][e into a modern LCD monitor? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 15:38:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:38:11 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2012, at 4:22 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:05 PM -0400 10/5/12, Jason McBrien wrote: >> There seems to be a lot of C64 music-related hardware stuff people are >> cooking up. >> >> There's the (preassembled) MSSIAH cart that turns a C64 into a >> midi-controlled synth module, also available from the site is a SID2SID >> circuit board kit that lets you add a second SID chip to a C64. >> http://www.8bitventures.com/ > > That's cool! I knew about PROPHET64, but not MSSIAH. Someone should > maintain a list of all these great projects! > > Has anyone created anything to allow us to plug things like a > Commodore 64 or Apple ][e into a modern LCD monitor? You mean like this? http://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-video-Audio-HDMI-Converter/dp/B003NS0UUQ I can't speak to how well it works; I know that various LCD TVs I've used really don't like the composite signal coming from the Apple ][ or the NES; it's probably slightly off spec, and the sloppy, cheap analog control loops in old tube TVs handled it fine, but the digital sync detector barfs on it. That's my working theory, anyway. I'd love to make something with a high-speed ADC and an FPGA going to VGA/DVI/HDMI to do the job correctly for vintage electronics which may not have the cleanest signals, but that job requires a large quantity of round tuits, which seem to be in short supply. - Dave From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 5 15:45:14 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 13:45:14 -0700 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: At 4:38 PM -0400 10/5/12, David Riley wrote: > > Has anyone created anything to allow us to plug things like a >> Commodore 64 or Apple ][e into a modern LCD monitor? > >You mean like this? > >http://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-video-Audio-HDMI-Converter/dp/B003NS0UUQ Cool! >I can't speak to how well it works; I know that various LCD TVs I've >used really don't like the composite signal coming from the Apple ][ >or the NES; it's probably slightly off spec, and the sloppy, cheap >analog control loops in old tube TVs handled it fine, but the digital >sync detector barfs on it. That's my working theory, anyway. Try running the signal through an old VCR, then to the converter, and see what happens. That's what we have to do to get a Sega Genesis working on our old Mitsubishi HDTV-ready TV (which really isn't ready, the PS3 freaks it out). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 16:01:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 17:01:15 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Oct 5, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:38 PM -0400 10/5/12, David Riley wrote: >> I can't speak to how well it works; I know that various LCD TVs I've >> used really don't like the composite signal coming from the Apple ][ >> or the NES; it's probably slightly off spec, and the sloppy, cheap >> analog control loops in old tube TVs handled it fine, but the digital >> sync detector barfs on it. That's my working theory, anyway. > > Try running the signal through an old VCR, then to the converter, and > see what happens. That's what we have to do to get a Sega Genesis > working on our old Mitsubishi HDTV-ready TV (which really isn't > ready, the PS3 freaks it out). While I'm sure that would work, my preferred solution is to run the systems on an old tube TV, because the graphics were definitely designed with the blurring effects of cheap CRTs in mind. :-) A lot of games look really ugly when you can see every pixel, which is why a lot of emulators spend more cycles on fancy blurring effects than they do on the actual CPU and graphics emulation. I do recall the VCR cleaning the signal up a lot vs. plugging right into the TV back in the day, though. Something along the lines of an AGC circuit in the path, which is what the Macrovision copy protection technology freaks out to keep you from taping your DVDs. - Dave From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 5 16:45:19 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 14:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: >> PETdisk microSD reader for the Commodore PET > > I'm almost ready to start a Kickstarter project to finance a new round of > P112 kits. See http://661.org/p112 for a description of the thing. > The redirected site (http://p112.feedle.net/) isn't coming up. :( g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 18:02:41 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 18:02:41 -0500 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> On 10/05/2012 11:24 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The source/vintage makes tham all probably "1.2M" (anybody who wants to > argue the impreciseness of that designation can come up with a CONCISE > (not paragraph long) and unambiguous name for that type of drive) Kevin. From grant at stockly.com Fri Oct 5 18:02:12 2012 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 15:02:12 -0800 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 4, 2012 at 8:22 PM, David Greelish wrote: > This is my theme and blurb I came up with: > > "David Greelish, Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society, will > give a presentation on the history of computers, and especially show how > the modern Make movement parallels the early "homebrew" computing > hobbyists. Plus, a look at electronic retrocomputing kits and accessories." > > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that > you can actually buy to build now? > > retrocomputing kits: > > Briel - replica 1, Altair 8800micro, micro-KIM, PocketTerm, a2mp3 and > others > FIGnition > Digi-Comp I > Gakken 4 Bit Micro Computer > The Altair 8800, Altair 680, and Kenbak kit. http://www.altairkit.com/ http://www.altair680kit.com/index.html http://www.kenbakkit.com/ From pye at mactec.com.au Fri Oct 5 18:34:36 2012 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 09:34:36 +1000 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <5673479F-A44D-4A2F-9475-1788DF4FB523@mactec.com.au> On 05/10/2012, at 2:22 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that you can actually buy to build now? There is the excellent Microbee kit from Australia... http://www.microbeetechnology.com.au I believe they have more in the pipeline. From radioengr at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 19:21:43 2012 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 17:21:43 -0700 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <506F7997.70708@gmail.com> On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model B".[*] > > The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user > address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B > adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the > logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them, > for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8 > Mwords. ... keeping this on topic. I can get 2MW x 36 of memory in a single chip. I know that there is no such thing as typical but... How much memory did KL10s have? What was a large machine? Mid? Small? Rob. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 19:57:31 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:57:31 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> On 09/28/2012 03:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking >>> specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought) >> >> Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of >> consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3 >> things tht used them. > > I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in > consumer electronics here, as well as electronic test equipment like HP > signal generators, etc. [playing catch-up on this thread] I think that's probably true - I do seem to see rather a lot of green 7-seg LED displays in the US, but red did seem more common in the UK. Quite why that would be the case though, I'm not sure. I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff... cheers Jules From david at classiccomputing.com Fri Oct 5 20:15:18 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:15:18 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone! Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 5 20:47:41 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 18:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: kit assembler (australia) Message-ID: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been reading the Retro computing kit thread and some of these kit look interesting I am wondering if there are any people who can assemble kit in Australia? I can buy the kit, send it to them, they assemble it,and sent it back to me --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 20:59:54 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 01:59:54 +0000 Subject: kit assembler (australia) In-Reply-To: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <922980625-1349488793-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-876560884-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Depending on the kit, many of them are for sale prebuilt (Vince/Grant). or get a cheaper kit like replica-1 and its a nice practice kit. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Sparks Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 18:47:41 To: cctalk Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: kit assembler (australia) I've been reading the Retro computing kit thread and some of these kit look interesting I am wondering if there are any people who can assemble kit in Australia? I can buy the kit, send it to them, they assemble it,and sent it back to me --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 5 21:05:08 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:05:08 -0600 Subject: kit assembler (australia) In-Reply-To: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <506F91D4.1080702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/5/2012 7:47 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I've been reading the Retro computing kit thread and some of these kit look interesting > > I am wondering if there are any people who can assemble kit in Australia? > I can buy the kit, send it to them, they assemble it,and sent it back to me > Assembling is the easy part. Where do you get the software for a kit computer? Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 21:12:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 22:12:31 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box > which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs > that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some, you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. > I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other > day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in > it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff... Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Fri Oct 5 21:20:23 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 22:20:23 -0400 Subject: kit assembler (australia) In-Reply-To: <506F91D4.1080702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <506F91D4.1080702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <308A1B30-D357-45D7-B47B-9C3BC29E755A@me.com> People develop it. Over on the mailing list for N8VEM, there's a boot ROM and CP/M that has been put together. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-10-05, at 10:05 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/5/2012 7:47 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I've been reading the Retro computing kit thread and some of these kit look interesting >> >> I am wondering if there are any people who can assemble kit in Australia? >> I can buy the kit, send it to them, they assemble it,and sent it back to me >> > Assembling is the easy part. Where do you get the software for a kit computer? > Ben. From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 21:26:55 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:26:55 -0700 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506F96EF.2080303@gmail.com> On 10/5/2012 7:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box >> which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs >> that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. > Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE > those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some, > you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's > just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock (two panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They came out of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and made a nice clock out of 'em... - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 22:11:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:11:18 -0400 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506F96EF.2080303@gmail.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> <506F96EF.2080303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506FA156.9010309@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2012 10:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box >>> which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs >>> that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. >> Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE >> those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some, >> you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's >> just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. > > Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg > > Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock (two > panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller > Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They came out > of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR > microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and > made a nice clock out of 'em... Yes!! Very VERY nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 22:20:52 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:20:52 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 22:28:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:28:01 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2012 11:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for > sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not cheap. (anywhere) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 5 22:29:37 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:29:37 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506FA5A1.90708@att.net> There's also the Heathkit H8 group where folks have recreated the original H-8 board set - and designed a bunch of updated boards as well. Boards are NOT available at the moment but the gerber files and construction notes are available here: http://sebhc.lesbird.com/ Steve On 10/5/2012 9:15 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone! > > Best, > > David Greelish > - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger& Podcaster > - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society > > Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 > > http://about.me/davidgreelish > > > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 22:49:09 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:49:09 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> On 10/5/2012 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not > cheap. (anywhere) -Dave I was a afraid of that. I am regretting how much of it I have tossed away over the years. Mouser is by far the cheapest yet. $76 for 60"x36". I guess that will probably last me the rest of my life. Only 1/4" thick though. Isn't 1/2" more the norm for IC ? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 22:59:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:59:31 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506FACA3.2020406@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2012 11:49 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not >> cheap. (anywhere) -Dave > > I was a afraid of that. I am regretting how much of it I have tossed > away over the years. Mouser is by far the cheapest yet. $76 for 60"x36". > I guess that will probably last me the rest of my life. Only 1/4" thick > though. Isn't 1/2" more the norm for IC ? I've seen it that thick, but I'd call that uncommon. 99% of the stuff I've seen has been 1/4". If that's way more than you need, I can send you a big piece (probably 1/3 of one of those big sheets) if you shoot me a few bucks for it, a mailing tube, and postage. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Oct 5 22:58:24 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 20:58:24 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Back in the early 80's Some companies tried to cook up a cheap antistatic foam. It consisted of foam neoprene, the stuff in furniture, soaked in some black so-called conductive mixture and then (i'm assuming here) baked to a solid consistency. Flamable and ate and blackened IC leads after a few months. -jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 8:28 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? On 10/05/2012 11:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for > sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not cheap. (anywhere) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 5 23:03:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 21:03:05 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506FAD79.5030409@sydex.com> On 10/05/2012 08:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2012 11:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for >> sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. > > Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. > > It's not cheap. (anywhere) I think Digikey also carries it. As does Techni-Tool: http://www.techni-tool.com/265ST1939 As Dave says, it's not cheap. I don't particularly care for the stuff, as when it degrades, it leaves IC leads a mess. I wonder if a large-scale solution might be plain old urethane foam with a coat of EZ-Slide paint? Or just use some foil-faced PIR insulating foam, perhaps. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:04:18 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:04:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2012 11:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for >> sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. > > Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. > > It's not cheap. (anywhere) Sometimes you can still find a good deal on smaller sections. I found a supplier who had 12 sections of good quality conductive foam ~3.5"x4.75" for $1.00 each a few years ago and I promptly bought out his stock. I figure that will last me a long time since these days I mainly store ICs in tubes and then put those inside foil/mylar antistatic bags. I've just run across too many ruined NOS ICs with corroded pins from the conductive foam breaking down. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:07:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:07:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/5/2012 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not cheap. >> (anywhere) -Dave > > I was a afraid of that. I am regretting how much of it I have tossed > away over the years. Mouser is by far the cheapest yet. $76 for 60"x36". > I guess that will probably last me the rest of my life. Only 1/4" thick > though. Isn't 1/2" more the norm for IC ? 1/4" is the most common thickness and works ok for ICs. If you have thicker foam, you may be able to put ICs on both sides. I used to occasionally end up with small sections of 1/2" from vendors that had EPROMs on both sides. Sometimes I'd see 1/2" used for TO-3 packaged FETs and such too. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 23:11:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question Message-ID: <1349496663.36660.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give disk back. Do I have to take it apart? From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:17:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:17:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, jim davis wrote: > Back in the early 80's Some companies tried to cook up a cheap > antistatic foam. It consisted of foam neoprene, the stuff in furniture, > soaked in some black so-called conductive mixture and then (i'm assuming > here) baked to a solid consistency. Flamable and ate and blackened IC > leads after a few months. I wonder if that's the stuff I've run into? The parts I found damaged were mainly 60s and 70s vintage though, the bulk of them logic chips. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:20:46 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:20:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/5/2012 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not cheap. >> (anywhere) -Dave > > I was a afraid of that. I am regretting how much of it I have tossed > away over the years. Mouser is by far the cheapest yet. $76 for 60"x36". > I guess that will probably last me the rest of my life. Only 1/4" thick > though. Isn't 1/2" more the norm for IC ? Desco appears to carry the 1/2" stuff directly on their website. http://www.desco.com/DescoCatalog/Packaging/StatfreeConductiveFoam/StatfreeConductiveFoam/ http://www.desco.com/DescoCatalog/Packaging/BlackCushionGradeDissipativeFoam/ I don't know what the differences are with the different foam densities though. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 23:23:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 00:23:54 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <506FB25A.8090807@neurotica.com> On 10/06/2012 12:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/05/2012 11:20 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have a good place to buy the conductive black foam for >>> sticking IC into ? The prices I am getting off google are nuts. >> >> Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. >> >> It's not cheap. (anywhere) > > Sometimes you can still find a good deal on smaller sections. I found a > supplier who had 12 sections of good quality conductive foam ~3.5"x4.75" > for $1.00 each a few years ago and I promptly bought out his stock. I > figure that will last me a long time since these days I mainly store ICs > in tubes and then put those inside foil/mylar antistatic bags. I've just > run across too many ruined NOS ICs with corroded pins from the > conductive foam breaking down. The key there is to not leave them in the same foam for 15+ years. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 5 23:25:11 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:25:11 -0500 Subject: Which vax-vms license for a microvax II with VCB-02? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <506FB2A7.2040309@pico-systems.com> > > Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2012 15:37:50 -0600 > From: Kevin Reynolds > To: > Subject: Which vax-vms license for a microvax II with VCB-02? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > I've been wracking my brain over which license I need for VMS 5.2 on a microvax-II with a VCB-02 graphics module installed? > > > I understand that I could just use the hobbyist licenses, but I bought the system with a legitimate VMS license and want to keep it as close to the original configuration as possible (I have other microvax systems with hobbyist 7.x). > > > > Unfortunately there is no vmslicense/charge like you have with vms 5.3 and beyond. > > > I'm testing by connecting up a terminal to a serial port (not the console, thats a different problem, won't work with VCB-02 installed unless you are in debug), and trying to log in. Right now I'm getting license exceeded. I figured I would just need a workstation license, but this doesn't seem to have worked. > > Older KA-630 boards (maybe all of them) do not have the firmware to talk to the VCB-02 screen during boot. So, you have to use a serial console to check boot progress or run diags, etc. Once it is booted, VMS 4.7 will run the VCB-02 just fine. There were single-user licenses and multi-user ones. The license exceeded message sounds like it has to do with the single/multi user issue, not the VCB-02. I think maybe there is a system boot-time switch to select # of users, and if that doesn't match, then only the administrator is allowed to log in. (Been so long since I ran VMS, I'm forgetting a lot!) I bought a MicroVAX-II board in 1986, and ran it as a home computer for about 21 years, until the hard drive died. I added a VCB-01 first, then upgraded to a VCB-02. Jon From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Oct 5 23:39:28 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:39:28 -0700 Subject: PC stuff for sale - on topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm cleaning up and have items that may interest some list members. Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. No software located yet. Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. Thanks, Jim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 5 23:46:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> > > The source/vintage makes tham all probably "1.2M" (anybody who wants to > > argue the impreciseness of that designation can come up with a CONCISE > > (not paragraph long) and unambiguous name for that type of drive) On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > Kevin. That is just as good as type 1, 0, 2, 7, etc.! Sure that Kevin won't mind? From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:52:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:52:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <97A2437D-1BB9-4797-AC6C-2270866FD6C8@gmail.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <97A2437D-1BB9-4797-AC6C-2270866FD6C8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 4, 2012, at 8:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> I have a number of 5.25" PC floppy drives that have sat in boxes in my >> parents' basement for years (reasonably well climate controlled, drives >> never got flooded, etc.) Media preservation isn't really my thing, >> since I don't have or come across a lot of media to preserve, but I >> figure four or five 5.25" drives could find a good home through this >> list. They worked last time they were tested, and I might be persuaded >> to test them again if necessary. I even have a 5.25"/3.5" dual drive, >> though its cosmetic components are beginning to wear a bit. > > OK, here's a list of the drives. Shipping is from ZIP code 19146 in the > USA. > > > Toshiba ND-0801GR (1.2M) Compaq used a variant of these at one time. IIRC, you never want to turn the lever on these without a disk or cardboard insert installed. The small nylon part that pushes the clamper down can easily crack otherwise. Maybe they fixed this in later drives? Other than the lever issue, these were pretty well built and not that hard to service. > Chinon FR-506 (1.2M) Typical mass-produced 5.25" of that era and they used a really cheap head actuator motor. Not nearly as easy to service as say a Teac FD-55. The FR-506 was among my least favorite 5.25" drives. > Fujitsu M2553 (1.2M) These are built like a tank, and like the Teac FD-55, use a full size stepper motor to actuate the heads. > Panasonic JU-475-5 (1.2M) If this is the drive I think it is, these were really well built. They had lots of jumper options and the LED plugged into a socket on the front and didn't use a lens so you could swap from amber/green with only having to remove the faceplate. I saw examples of these drives well into the 486 era with the only real difference being the faceplate and LED color. If someone wants to put a blue T1-3/4 LED in a 5.25" drive, this is one of the easier drives to convert. > Newtronics D509V (1.2M) Aka Mitsumi. Mitsumi used a lot of Toshiba parts but from memory these drives tended to be a little better engineered than similar drives from Toshiba. > Looks like they're all 1.2M, so apologies for those looking for > low-density drives are out of luck here. The dual drive is in another > box somewhere, so I'll have to look for that, but if anyone wants any of > the above, I'll be glad to send 'em on. I still have several shelves of 5.25" drives myself and eventually I'm going to need to clean out some of my old inventory too. I have a huge stack of Teac FD-55GFR drives with gray faceplates and green LED lenses that came out of 486 era systems that had 5.25" drives removed to make room for cdrom drives. Is there any demand today for such 1.2MB drives with gray faceplates? From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Oct 5 23:55:35 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:55:35 -0700 Subject: PC stuff for sale - on topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sorry, reply to jimpdavis at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim davis Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 9:39 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: PC stuff for sale - on topic I'm cleaning up and have items that may interest some list members. Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. No software located yet. Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. Thanks, Jim. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 5 23:57:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 23:57:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <506FB25A.8090807@neurotica.com> References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> <506FB25A.8090807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/06/2012 12:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Sometimes you can still find a good deal on smaller sections. I found a >> supplier who had 12 sections of good quality conductive foam >> ~3.5"x4.75" for $1.00 each a few years ago and I promptly bought out >> his stock. I figure that will last me a long time since these days I >> mainly store ICs in tubes and then put those inside foil/mylar >> antistatic bags. I've just run across too many ruined NOS ICs with >> corroded pins from the conductive foam breaking down. > > The key there is to not leave them in the same foam for 15+ years. ;) That's easy to do though when you end up with lots of random "spares". :P In these cases though, they were already damaged when I got them. I have no idea how long they had been in the foam. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 5 23:58:24 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 21:58:24 -0700 Subject: 7 segment gas-discharge/neon displays / was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506FA156.9010309@neurotica.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> <506F96EF.2080303@gmail.com> <506FA156.9010309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Oct 5, at 8:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2012 10:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>>> I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk >>>> box >>>> which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the >>>> PCBs >>>> that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. >>> Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE >>> those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have >>> some, >>> you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even >>> if it's >>> just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. >> >> Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg >> >> Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock >> (two >> panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller >> Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They >> came out >> of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR >> microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and >> made a nice clock out of 'em... > > Yes!! Very VERY nice! To elaborate, there were several manufacturers and models of 7- segment gas-discharge displays, they weren't all Panaplex: - Burroughs Panaplex (original/Panaplex I) Multiple digits per module, typically 8-13 digits for use in calculators Anodes are a metal grid between the viewing glass and the segment cathodes. Early-70s, not very common, superseded by Panaplex II. - Burroughs Panaplex II: Anodes are transparent conductive sputtering on the viewing glass. Far more prevalent than Panaplex I. Mid-70s, quite common. - Beckman: typically just 2 or 3 digits per envelope, used more in instruments and the like, such as clocks where 2-digit modules could be spaced for the H M S. IIRC, the Heathkit clock and so on used Beckman modules. Mid-70s, fairly common. - assorted Japanese types: typically multi-digit modules for use in calculators. Early-mid-70s, not common. Around the late 60's, before the above multi-digit modules, there were some single-digit tubes made. In a tube envelope just like common nixies, but a 7-segment display instead of the nixie 1-of-10 formed numerals. They were all subject to 'burning out', particularly the types with the anodes sputtered on the glass, TMO the lifetimes were shorter than nixies. I think the last common use for them was in retail gas pumps, where they were used from the mid-late-70s till when? - mid-90s or so? My guess is these were Beckman types. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 6 00:01:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 22:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121005215848.P84997@shell.lmi.net> > That is just as good as type 1, 0, 2, 7, etc.! funny what you run into with Google! http://www.csulb.edu/~murdock/drivparm.html says that type 3 is single density 8"! (and type 4 is double density 8") I wonder which versions of MS-DOS and which, if any, of PC-DOS support THOSE drive types directly? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 6 00:03:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 00:03:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > >> Man, I should have known better than to forget details. Shipping from >> USA (Philadelphia, if it matters). I don't know the specifics of the >> drives at the moment, but they were all pulled from 386 or later PCs, >> if that gives an idea. I'll go through the box and post a list of >> mfg/part numbers later today when I can go through the box. > > The dual drive is presumably "1.2M/1.4M", although other [R at RE] > configurations, even 360K/720K did exist. I've never seen a 360K/720K, but at least one company (maybe Epson?) made a 1.2MB/720K combo drive. I had one of those in a 286 that was given away. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 6 01:08:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2012 23:08:16 -0700 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121005215848.P84997@shell.lmi.net> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> <20121005215848.P84997@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <506FCAD0.7040403@sydex.com> On 10/05/2012 10:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> That is just as good as type 1, 0, 2, 7, etc.! > > funny what you run into with Google! > > http://www.csulb.edu/~murdock/drivparm.html > says that type 3 is single density 8"! > (and type 4 is double density 8") > > I wonder which versions of MS-DOS and which, if any, of PC-DOS support > THOSE drive types directly? I've wondered if those were grandfathered in by non-PC vendors, such as NEC. Anyone try to format a single-density 8" on their APC by way of specifying DRIVPARM? --Chuck From spedraja at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 06:53:58 2012 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 13:53:58 +0200 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator Message-ID: I've received an advice from ClassicMainframe about this emulator (thanks Peter). Great shape. http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation Enjoy. SPc. From jjacocks at mac.com Fri Oct 5 10:08:22 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 11:08:22 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <1CBFADE3-7CF9-4706-B029-0AD1F2BCA957@classiccomputing.com> <506E8806.5070808@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:20 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Pontus wrote: >> >> On 10/05/2012 06:22 AM, David Greelish wrote: >> >>> Could everyone help me brainstorm on exactly what all is out there that >>> you can actually buy to build now? > > >> Not sure what the status of xt-ide is: >> >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showwiki.php?title=XTIDE+Rev2 > > > Active. Andrew Lynch has been shipping out version 2 PC boards for people > build their own. I'm going to be assembling a number of these for my own > systems as soon as I clear my bench of the current batch of projects. N8VEM has a number of other kits, that mostly consist of a provided PCB that you source your own components for. Notable examples: S100-based System: Z80 CPU Board: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80%20CPU%20Board.htm 4mb SRAM Board: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/RAM%20Board/4MG%20RAM%20Board.htm Backplane: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35158565/Build%20Instructions IBM PC XT Clone: System Board: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/59325872/Xi%208088 ISA Backplane: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=ISA%20Backplane I can personally recommend the N8VEM Zeta, as I built one, myself, and have used it quite a bit. It's a pretty powerful (up to 20mHz Z80!) CP/M 2.2/3.0 compatible single-board computer. I have built the Zeta, itself, and the ParPortProp VGA/SD card board. Zeta: Main board: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/44366173/Zeta%20SBC ParPortProp: http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/52472959/ParPortProp These are all easily-built boards, though they are not kits. Someone could indeed make kits out of them, though, if they wanted to collect the parts. - Alex From jim.p.davis at gmail.com Fri Oct 5 14:59:49 2012 From: jim.p.davis at gmail.com (Jim Davis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 12:59:49 -0700 Subject: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale Message-ID: I'm cleaning up and have some items that may interest some list members. Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. No software located yet. Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. Thanks, Jim. From jjacocks at mac.com Fri Oct 5 15:26:34 2012 From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:26:34 -0400 Subject: Retro computer kits In-Reply-To: References: <5fdd73b5428ad03f03bf8e4410cfc5a0.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> <506F3B2B.6020004@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:55 PM -0700 10/5/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> Where are you drawing the line? There are a considerable number of >> vintage designs implemented in FPGA, for example. >> >> Are those "vintage" in the sense that you mean it? >> >> --Chuck > > > The list is definitely missing some great Commodore related hardware. > > Turbo Chameleon 64 -- I must confess, I want one! (I have the older MMC > Replay w/RR-Net) > http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm > > > Jim Brain's stuff -- I'm a big fan of his work, and see something new I need > to find $$$'s for (I have his uIEC/SD) > http://store.go4retro.com/ There are a ton of retro-accessories currently available. You could list the many other Individual Computers products, mostly made for the Amiga (accelerators, memory cards, graphics adapters, etc.), or the 1541 Ultimate and Ultimate II, or a myriad of others. It might be interesting to link all of this stuff from a wiki (maybe Vintage Computer Forums' wiki?). There are, however, many fewer kits available. I'd love to see more, as I feel differently about a machine that I have built, myself. - Alex From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Oct 5 18:15:12 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 16:15:12 -0700 Subject: Unusual PC hardware and EPROMS for sale Message-ID: I'm cleaning up and have items that may interest some list members. Central point software transcopy deluxe board - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=142538&img=copy2.jpg 100+ AM27C2048 16X128K EPROM 40 pin package NOS - $30/OBO http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=147940&img=eproms.jpg ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg ISA Definicon 68020 coprocessor - $50 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148129&img=68020-large.jpg + actual shipping - Paypal friends option. The 2 co-processors were purchased for work in the early 90's. No software located yet. Current condition unknown, stored in anti-static bag since 1992. Thanks, Jim. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 08:45:27 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 09:45:27 -0400 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:53 AM, SPC wrote: > I've received an advice from ClassicMainframe about this emulator > (thanks Peter). > > Great shape. > > http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation Hmm, this looks interesting but I can't find a download link anywhere on the site. How would one go about running this? Mike From brain at jbrain.com Sat Oct 6 10:53:15 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:53:15 -0500 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <5060F41E.2010609@gmail.com> <506FA394.1010707@gmail.com> <506FA541.7080304@neurotica.com> <506FAA35.1010902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507053EB.40403@jbrain.com> On 10/5/2012 11:20 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: >> On 10/5/2012 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Mouser carries it in big 3'x3' (or thereabouts) sheets. It's not >>> cheap. (anywhere) -Dave >> >> I was a afraid of that. I am regretting how much of it I have tossed >> away over the years. Mouser is by far the cheapest yet. $76 for >> 60"x36". I guess that will probably last me the rest of my life. Only >> 1/4" thick though. Isn't 1/2" more the norm for IC ? > > Desco appears to carry the 1/2" stuff directly on their website. > > http://www.desco.com/DescoCatalog/Packaging/StatfreeConductiveFoam/StatfreeConductiveFoam/ > > http://www.desco.com/DescoCatalog/Packaging/BlackCushionGradeDissipativeFoam/ > > > I don't know what the differences are with the different foam > densities though. Here is what I use to send products to people: http://www.correctproducts.com/ESD-Packaging/High-Density-Black-Conductive-Polyethylene-Foam It's a bit cheaper per sq inch than mouser, and they offer different thicknesses (I use 1/4") Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 6 10:53:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 08:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <506FCAD0.7040403@sydex.com> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> <20121005215848.P84997@shell.lmi.net> <506FCAD0.7040403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121006084431.P98425@shell.lmi.net> > > http://www.csulb.edu/~murdock/drivparm.html > > says that type 3 is single density 8"! > > (and type 4 is double density 8") > > I wonder which versions of MS-DOS and which, if any, of PC-DOS support > > THOSE drive types directly? On Fri, 5 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've wondered if those were grandfathered in by non-PC vendors, such as > NEC. Anyone try to format a single-density 8" on their APC by way of > specifying DRIVPARM? If anybody succeeds, what size sectors, and how many per track? Single or double sided? That MIGHT even work to redefine a 1.2M drive as being an 8"! (/F:2 used to work to declare a 720K 5.25" drive as being a 3.5"!) Would the /F:4 option change anything of 1.2M format other than number of cylinders? (77 instead of 80) Single or double sided? I encountered many STRANGE behaviors with DRIVPARM. For example, it worked fine with either PC-DOS 3.20 on a generic clone, but with REAL IBM 5170 ROMs, it produced a message about unrecognizable CONFIG.SYS command! At that time, I was not aware of the /I option; I wonder if that would have made a difference? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 6 11:01:26 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 18:01:26 +0200 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes. I've asked about it. Waiting a response. SPc. 2012/10/6 Michael Kerpan : > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:53 AM, SPC wrote: >> I've received an advice from ClassicMainframe about this emulator >> (thanks Peter). >> >> Great shape. >> >> http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation > > Hmm, this looks interesting but I can't find a download link anywhere > on the site. How would one go about running this? > > Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 11:31:45 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 11:31:45 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50705CF1.4060707@gmail.com> On 10/05/2012 09:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box >> which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs >> that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps. > > Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE > those. Yes, those are the ones. I think all the ones I had were double-digit ones, and I had a couple of sizes (from memory - as it's been a few years since I last saw them - some were 1" high and others around 3/4"). I'm guessing I had around fifteen of them, but not all of them were still functional - and at least in one case the glass faceplate simply fell off, which maybe suggests that they're not very well bonded and/or the bonding material is deteriorating over time :-( > Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some, > you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's > just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. It's a shame that there's not much else beyond a clock that lends itself well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a postcard... What would be pretty cool would be a Sudoku grid formed with some cool ol' display technology, but as you say these kinds of things seem to sell for not insignificant sums these days. >> I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other >> day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in >> it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff... > > Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too. To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking some drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so I assume the green-blue type aren't much different. There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store which keeps tempting me, as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with custom VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off behind a bezel and just expose the numeric part). cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 6 11:38:46 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 11:38:46 -0500 Subject: 7 segment gas-discharge/neon displays / was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> <506F96EF.2080303@gmail.com> <506FA156.9010309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50705E96.1020604@gmail.com> On 10/05/2012 11:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > - Beckman: typically just 2 or 3 digits per envelope, used more in > instruments and the like, > such as clocks where 2-digit modules could be spaced for the H M S. > IIRC, the Heathkit clock and so on used Beckman modules. > Mid-70s, fairly common. Aha, that triggered a memory - those are the ones that I have in storage overseas, not Burroughs. > I think the last common use for them was in retail gas pumps, where they > were used from the mid-late-70s till when? - mid-90s or so? My guess is > these were Beckman types. That seems to tie in with the suspected source of mine, then (although mine are in the UK, but no reason to assume that they didn't use similar technology). I'm surprised that they lasted into the 90s, though. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 6 11:38:23 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 09:38:23 -0700 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121006084431.P98425@shell.lmi.net> References: <6E1D9DAE-4871-447E-B4FC-36EA5592621B@gmail.com> <29AF62B8-AE7F-4A49-984E-B6820DE3138E@gmail.com> <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> <506F6711.2070503@gmail.com> <20121005214239.I84997@shell.lmi.net> <20121005215848.P84997@shell.lmi.net> <506FCAD0.7040403@sydex.com> <20121006084431.P98425@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50705E7F.9030209@sydex.com> On 10/06/2012 08:53 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That MIGHT even work to redefine a 1.2M drive as being an 8"! > (/F:2 used to work to declare a 720K 5.25" drive as being a 3.5"!) Well, not exactly on the Japanese DOS-V variant of MS-DOS. I suspect that the single-density operations are only valid on DOS-V because the standard PC BIOS interface is very different from that embodied in PC98. > Would the /F:4 option change anything of 1.2M format other than number of > cylinders? (77 instead of 80) Single or double sided? If you're talking about double-density, it's easy enough to find out. > I encountered many STRANGE behaviors with DRIVPARM. > For example, it worked fine with either PC-DOS 3.20 on a generic clone, > but with REAL IBM 5170 ROMs, it produced a message about unrecognizable > CONFIG.SYS command! > At that time, I was not aware of the /I option; I wonder if that would > have made a difference? Well, recall that there was an odd behavior in at least one version of DOS prior to 3.3 that required one to prefix DRIVPARM with a series of 01 (Control-A) characters to be recognized. Was it PC-DOS? I don't recall. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 6 16:21:34 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 14:21:34 -0700 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. Message-ID: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and cms for setting up the system, not much else. thanks Jim From ryan at hack.net Sat Oct 6 18:13:14 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 20:13:14 -0300 Subject: 3.3v x16 eproms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38F09137-08E2-4A7D-82AD-61DD22594F73@hack.net> Does anyone have a source for x16 wide eproms that are 3.3v friendly? I saw the post about these AM27C2048 for sale, but they are +5v only AFAIK. tnx, Ryan Brooks On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:15 PM, jim davis wrote: > AM27C2048 From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Oct 6 18:26:33 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 16:26:33 -0700 Subject: 3.3v x16 eproms In-Reply-To: <38F09137-08E2-4A7D-82AD-61DD22594F73@hack.net> References: <38F09137-08E2-4A7D-82AD-61DD22594F73@hack.net> Message-ID: <29A8CF0E-DBDD-445D-ACE7-E9F40EC972D2@shiresoft.com> I think they're called FLASH (ducks). TTFN - Guy On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote: > > Does anyone have a source for x16 wide eproms that are 3.3v friendly? I saw the post about these AM27C2048 for sale, but they are +5v only AFAIK. > > tnx, > > Ryan Brooks > > On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:15 PM, jim davis wrote: > >> AM27C2048 > From ryan at hack.net Sat Oct 6 18:32:01 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 20:32:01 -0300 Subject: 3.3v x16 eproms In-Reply-To: <29A8CF0E-DBDD-445D-ACE7-E9F40EC972D2@shiresoft.com> References: <38F09137-08E2-4A7D-82AD-61DD22594F73@hack.net> <29A8CF0E-DBDD-445D-ACE7-E9F40EC972D2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7093EC40-97AE-4654-AD4E-B16508799022@hack.net> Yeah, I should have said DIP pkg as well, for ease of programming. I've used lots of flash devices (w/ DIP pkg) that are pinout compatible and 3.3v supply, but all are x8. I'm looking for x16 so I can get a 32-bit project down to two sockets. (If this was for something in circuit programmable, I'd be fine with some high density tsop thing, but I don't have that nicety.) -R On Oct 6, 2012, at 8:26 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I think they're called FLASH (ducks). > > TTFN - Guy > > On Oct 6, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Ryan Brooks wrote: > >> >> Does anyone have a source for x16 wide eproms that are 3.3v friendly? I saw the post about these AM27C2048 for sale, but they are +5v only AFAIK. >> >> tnx, >> >> Ryan Brooks >> >> On Oct 5, 2012, at 8:15 PM, jim davis wrote: >> >>> AM27C2048 >> > > From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Oct 6 18:41:54 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 23:41:54 +0000 Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA In-Reply-To: <506F7997.70708@gmail.com> References: <20121002200354.d264776b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210021958.q92JwY7g9699488@floodgap.com> <20121002230503.7a6db3c6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <506CECF5.7050102@gmail.com> <00f301cda250$2c17c0d0$84474270$@ntlworld.com> <506E59FB.40604@gmail.com> <506E619E.5050201@brouhaha.com> <506F7997.70708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598555@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Rob Doyle Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 5:22 PM On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model B".[*] >> The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW >> user address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The >> Model B adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to >> the logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of >> them, for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address >> space to 8 Mwords. > ... keeping this on topic. > I can get 2MW x 36 of memory in a single chip. > I know that there is no such thing as typical but... > How much memory did KL10s have? What was a large machine? Mid? > Small? The KL-10 (and the predecessor KI-10) could address up to 4MW physical. Until semiconductor memory became common, of course, that was mostly a theoretical limit; by 1984 it was not uncommon to find a KL with four internal memory bays of 768KW each, for a total of 3MW. With the upgrade to take a 2060 to a 2065, that was reduced in count to two bays of 2MW each, for the 4MW limit. Of course by that time, many people were beginning to migrate away from the PDP-10 architecture, but as late as June 1995 there were at least 60 4MW systems left in the world. (They were all gone by June 1996.) A small KL-10 system would have 1-2 section's worth of real memory, 256-512KW. A medium sized system would have had 1.5-2MW. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 6 20:11:33 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 21:11:33 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? References: Message-ID: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 10:53:15 -0500 > From: Jim Brain > > Here is what I use to send products to people: > > http://www.correctproducts.com/ESD-Packaging/High-Density-Black-Conductive-Polyethylene-Foam > > It's a bit cheaper per sq inch than mouser, and they offer different > thicknesses (I use 1/4") > > Jim -----Reply: Recycled styrofoam wrapped in aluminum foil works for me and is practically free... mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 6 20:14:34 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 21:14:34 -0400 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator References: Message-ID: <4FE400122E6A4476ADF06C077E1D6A2A@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 09:45:27 -0400 > From: Michael Kerpan > > On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 7:53 AM, SPC wrote: >> I've received an advice from ClassicMainframe about this emulator >> (thanks Peter). >> >> Great shape. >> >> http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation > > Hmm, this looks interesting but I can't find a download link anywhere > on the site. How would one go about running this? > > Mike ----- Reply: Looks like maybe you have to ask the site owner (Scott Lurndal?) for a login password. I still have several manuals for Burroughs Medium Systems: - 1054772 System Software Operational Guide 10-73 (CP14, CP40, MCP1, MCP2 and MCPV) - 1054905 BASIC and CANDE Reference Manual 9-71 (Overview) - 1067527 BASIC Reference Manual 2-74 (Language Manual) - 1058062 FORTRAN Reference Manual 4-73 (Language Manual) as well as several utility instruction printouts (PTCOPY, INSTR5) Are these already archived and on line anywhere? I also have the operator's console from a B2700 but it's promised to a fellow list member. Memories... m From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 6 20:38:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:38:32 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> Message-ID: <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> On 10/06/2012 06:11 PM, MikeS wrote: > Recycled styrofoam wrapped in aluminum foil works for me and is practically > free... Use extruded styrofoam--as in "pink" insulation panels. Less ESD, cleaner to cut and relatively strong. I push it onto the pins on my wirewrap boards for protection. Great stuff. --Chuck From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Oct 6 21:13:54 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 19:13:54 -0700 Subject: Pick and Coherent O/S packages for sale In-Reply-To: <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> Message-ID: I will include raw images of disks on CD as a backup. Mark Williams Coherent 3.0, serial #, 3.1.0 update and driver dev packages. - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148201&img=coherent.jpg Pick operating system PC3 R83 V3.1.01 May 91 - 10 user license - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148202&img=pick.jpg + media mail shipping - Paypal friends option Add 3.5% if using instapay or credit card. Thanks, Jim. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sat Oct 6 21:27:01 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 02:27:01 +0000 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. In-Reply-To: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> References: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <83E0588E-8C13-42FA-BC94-6175DACDF585@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Anyone from here bidding? On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:22 PM, "jim s" wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 > > As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. > > They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and cms for setting up the system, not much else. > > thanks > Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 6 21:34:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 22:34:52 -0400 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. In-Reply-To: <83E0588E-8C13-42FA-BC94-6175DACDF585@mail2.cu-portland.edu> References: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> <83E0588E-8C13-42FA-BC94-6175DACDF585@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Message-ID: <5070EA4C.4060605@neurotica.com> I was thinking about going for it. -Dave On 10/06/2012 10:27 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone from here bidding? > > > > On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:22 PM, "jim s" wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 >> >> As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. >> >> They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and cms for setting up the system, not much else. >> >> thanks >> Jim > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sat Oct 6 22:21:04 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 20:21:04 -0700 Subject: Atari ST fans? Spectre GCR For Sale In-Reply-To: <5070EA4C.4060605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I don't know of any Atari ST fans in the group, but I thought I'd give the group first shot before I try the Atari bunch. Atari ST Spectre GCR MAC cartridge, manual, cable, software and box. Runs Apple Mac Plus software and reads/writes mac disks. Paid $350.00 in 1990. Have been seen selling for $150. Plastic shipping box is scrunched. Cloned eproms installed, will include Apple ROMs for $5. Will consider reasonable offer. http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148204&img=spectre.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148205&img=spectre-board.j.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148203&img=manual-disks.jp.jpg Sorry about all the FS chatter, My car timing belt broke and I'm on a tight budget. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 6 22:48:36 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2012 22:48:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/06/2012 06:11 PM, MikeS wrote: > >> Recycled styrofoam wrapped in aluminum foil works for me and is >> practically free... That offers no ESD protection whatsoever. Aluminum foil is a great conductor of static electricity and an ESD discharge to the foil will go straight to the pins of the component you've stuck into it. > Use extruded styrofoam--as in "pink" insulation panels. Less ESD, > cleaner to cut and relatively strong. I push it onto the pins on my > wirewrap boards for protection. Great stuff. Just because it is pink doesn't make it low-ESD. Pink foam, either LDPE (low density polyethylene plastic, the most common form of the "pink stuff" you find today) or polystyrene (styrofoam) offers no static protection on its own. The pink stuff that is explicitly used for ESD sensitive parts is simply engineered and treated with a chemical so that it will create little or no static. It is intended to be used /inside/ an ESD bag/box or around ESD sensitive parts. Pink insulation panels are not treated and are not low-ESD. The pink bags are exactly the same way, they aren't static dissipative and don't protect sensitive electronics, but we already had that discussion thread awhile back. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 6 23:30:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2012 21:30:08 -0700 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50710550.1090907@sydex.com> On 10/06/2012 08:48 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Just because it is pink doesn't make it low-ESD. That's not what I was talking about--I mentioned "pink" because Owens-Corning is the insulation products giant here in the USA. Here's a product sheet: http://commercial.owenscorning.com/assets/0/321/333/40f3e824-af80-495c-8ecc-2c66d3548363.pdf If a hunk is covered with aluminum foil, wouldn't that make all pins of an IC at the same potential, regardless of ESD? If you don't like aluminum foil, paint it with aquadag or EZ-Slide graphite paint. h--Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 6 23:31:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 00:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> Message-ID: <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Recycled styrofoam wrapped in aluminum foil works for me and is >>> practically free... > That offers no ESD protection whatsoever. I think "no...whatsoever" is an exaggeration, though it certainly isn't as good as proper antistatic foam. > Aluminum foil is a great conductor of static electricity [...] That's why it helps. The danger is not high voltage relative to some arbitrary ground; the danger is high voltage between elements of the chip, mostly meaning between pins. That means that a low-impedance path joining all pins will reduce the risk of static damage. Not eliminate it, both because the path is not perfect - it's got nonzero impedance at best and thus can develop voltage between pins - and because it's possible, especially after longer-term storage, for the aluminum foil to develop holes large enough to break contact with the pins. But then, those are true of conductive foam, too; indeed, because its resistance is much higher, it is less protective against a static jolt delivered directly to a chip pin. (What it _is_ much more protective against is a jolt delivered to the foam.) > The pink bags are exactly the same way, they aren't static > dissipative and don't protect sensitive electronics, Some of them are. I've seen pink plastic bags that were conductive to antistatic levels - they simply would not hold a charge no matter how hard I tried and how well something less conductive, like a shopping bag or a more ordinary plastic bag, would hold a charge under similar circumstances. I do, of course, agree that it's not wise to count on a bag to be antistatic just because it's pink. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 7 01:01:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 02:01:37 -0400 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50711AC1.7030704@neurotica.com> On 10/05/2012 07:53 AM, SPC wrote: > I've received an advice from ClassicMainframe about this emulator > (thanks Peter). > > Great shape. > > http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation Wow. That looks like a damn impressive piece of work. Please let us know what you find out when you hear back from the author! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 7 02:10:00 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 02:10:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> Aluminum foil is a great conductor of static electricity [...] > > That's why it helps. The danger is not high voltage relative to some > arbitrary ground; the danger is high voltage between elements of the > chip, mostly meaning between pins. That means that a low-impedance path > joining all pins will reduce the risk of static damage. > > Not eliminate it, both because the path is not perfect - it's got > nonzero impedance at best and thus can develop voltage between pins - > and because it's possible, especially after longer-term storage, for the > aluminum foil to develop holes large enough to break contact with the > pins. But then, those are true of conductive foam, too; indeed, because > its resistance is much higher, it is less protective against a static > jolt delivered directly to a chip pin. (What it _is_ much more > protective against is a jolt delivered to the foam.) Not /just/ mostly between the pins though. A common ESD event likely to do damage to electronic components is one where the potential of the material /inside/ the chip itself is at a different potential to other objects in the environment outside of the chip. It might or might not help to have multiple pins at the same potential, and the foil may just give the discharge a larger pathway. The video that was linked to in the last discussion illustrates this type of discharge event perfectly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8 This is also why conductive foam isn't (or rather shouldn't be) used by itself and the foam and parts should really still be placed inside a static _shielding_ (metalized mylar) ESD bag. The resistance of conductive foam (typically 500k ohm to several megohms or more) also not only helps prevent damage from a discharge to the foam, but also helps prevent a charge from ever building up because the conductive properties allow a potential to /slowly/ self discharge through the larger surface of the conductive foam. Styrofoam or the pink LDPE foam are not conductive at all so offer no way to slowly bleed off any potential charge. Aluminum foil on the other hand, will allow a potential to rapidly self-discharge, aka an ESD discharge event, which is what we want to avoid. Those old static dissipative carbon black bags on the other hand tended to be very conductive (as low as a few kilohms or even less) which is why the black bags are not commonly used (or manufactured) today and have largely been replaced in industry by metalized mylar static /shielding/ bags. The old myth that storing components or pc boards in foil will protect them has been disproven again and again yet it still comes up from time to time. From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 7 02:38:21 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 00:38:21 -0700 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern Message-ID: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> I have a problem that cropped up that spans both old systems and flaw maps / disks that have flaws to skip over and current technology. In the old days with my experience on a lot of cdc winchesters and removable pack smd drives (and trident) there were flaw maps you could use in a controller to figure out where the bad spots were. When shipped from the factory the mmd / cmd / emd / fsd drives (at least the first two) were not allowed to have more than a false address mark on a track, and a limit of maybe 5 for the entire stack. Later at least on the mmd's they had run of marginal media and upped the FAM errors considerably. (10? 15? don't recall). I later found some drives delivered to such as Datapoint for large systems delivered when we got the story about the FAM problem (needing to up the count) that had zero flaws, but that was 10 years later buying some scrap drives (better than the ones I had purchased 10 years before, still working). Anyway, recently I had a system with a 1.5tb seagate grow a count of "uncorrectable offline sector count" errors. I'm telling this up front since these are effectively the same as the above errors, sectors that are not recoverable by the drive and presented as bad or timeout spots when you seek to the sectors. The errors were not there when I initialized the linux system on the drive, and grew later. To complicate things a bit this was part of a LVM raid ext3 raid 5 set, so there are other complications here, but the initial build was flawless, ran about a 6 months then this drive grew 16 bad errors visible to linux. So, I have now got the situation where there is a bad spot in a file (more complicated because this is part of a raid set, but bear with me). If you power cycle the drive set they do a scan of the media with the raid system I'm using (linux based) and hang before releasing it for server operations. That is the only flaw that there was, and I had a brick. Thank heaven I could put it in a desktop system and recover the data (7tb of it). Anyway, have we lost the capability with such as Linux to run with flaws growing on media at the level where transfers from media come from the drive target to the host, or did this vendor of raid equipment (appliance was readynas nv2+) have a flaw in their bringup procedure. I am glad I shopped and got a system with raid 5 support like this with a linux system that I could take out and troubleshoot with any linux tools, rather than hardware raid. Dodged that bullet. but I am disappointed even so with the behavior of the raid set when I put it on my recovery system. I think there is a basic loss of what one would have been accustomed to in earlier times with media, throwing their hands up with defective media. I was only able to narrow down the error with manual applications of careful dd commands and shell scripting (lacking a better tool) to see the errors. There is a nice timesaving web page if you hunt around the pages found by searching for smart errors. At least that is a nice tool, telling a lot about the drive. I am not going into why a 1.5tb drive with huge amounts of extra space (as I understand it probably > 500gb) can't reassign media 16 consecutive sectors, as that is a totally different discussion. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 7 04:51:12 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:51:12 -0600 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50715090.2020207@brouhaha.com> On 10/07/2012 01:38 AM, jim s wrote: > recently I had a system with a 1.5tb seagate grow a count of > "uncorrectable offline sector count" errors. [...] To complicate > things a bit this was part of a LVM raid ext3 raid 5 set, When you have a drive go bad in a RAID 5, it's best to pull the drive, put a new one in its place, and start a rebuild. That's the point of using RAID 5. Trying to recover data from the failing drive is mostly a waste of time. Of course, if the drive wasn't in a RAID 5, mirror, etc., you wouldn't have that option. The drives do all sorts of magic "under the hood" to try to recover your data, and they'll remap sectors that get marginal, but when sectors suddenly become completely unreadable, they don't remap them. If they did, when you read them they'd report no error but with data different than was originally written, which would be completely unacceptable. If you try to write to the bad sectors, the drive may remap them. However, once a drive starts reporting hard errors, I consider it time to scrap it. I've done an absurd amount of data recovery from failing drives, corrupted RAID arrays, etc., and it is no fun at all. I've had to write a lot of my own tools as I go along, but most of them were so specific to a particular problem as to not be worth sharing. One possible exception was a tool I used to recover a 3ware RAID 5 array on which the RAID metadata had accidentally been destroyed. The content data was still completely intact. I had to figure out how the parity rotation of the RAID stripes worked, and write my own code to reconstruct it onto a new array. Eric From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 7 08:09:55 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 15:09:55 +0200 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator In-Reply-To: <50711AC1.7030704@neurotica.com> References: <50711AC1.7030704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Absolutely YES. 2012/10/7 Dave McGuire : > On 10/05/2012 07:53 AM, SPC wrote: >> >> http://vseries.lurndal.org/doku.php?id=simulator:installation > > Wow. That looks like a damn impressive piece of work. Please let us > know what you find out when you hear back from the author! Sergio. From fryers at gmail.com Sun Oct 7 09:26:52 2012 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:26:52 +0800 Subject: kit assembler (australia) In-Reply-To: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349488061.68828.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, Where in Australia are you? There may be someone local who can assist you in building a kit. Simon. On 6 October 2012 09:47, Tom Sparks wrote: > I've been reading the Retro computing kit thread and some of these kit look interesting > > > I am wondering if there are any people who can assemble kit in Australia? > I can buy the kit, send it to them, they assemble it,and sent it back to me > > > --- > tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" > Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html > Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks > 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter > Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) > -- Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 7 10:23:43 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:23:43 -0500 Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: <201209280728.DAA18882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50719E7F.8010507@gmail.com> On 09/28/2012 03:48 AM, Rob wrote: > At least this time I > have an external isolation switch so I can switch it off if I need to > (although then I upset the clock display..) I'd love to know which idiot came up with the idea of integrating clocks with things :-( At least our stove is old and has a clock running from the AC supply, so it only loses time for the length of a power cut - the microwave and coffee maker both reset at the slightest glitch, and it's not like we need three clocks in the room anyway. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 7 10:37:04 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:37:04 -0500 Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <1349496663.36660.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349496663.36660.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5071A1A0.7080906@gmail.com> On 10/05/2012 11:11 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give disk back. Do I have to take it apart? The eject mechanism on those slimline drives is prone to sticking; I had to clean mine up with some isopropanol and then re-lube them for them to work reliably. The 'just a cursor' issue might just be dirty drive heads, so clean the heads while you have the drives out and see if that cures it. There was a huge build-up of crud on mine when I got the machine, and it gave the same symptoms. What software do you have for yours? Mine came with quite a pile 'o disks, but of course only a tiny portion of what must have been available at one time. (I think the only one I couldn't image was the Underground City game; the game itself works, so I expect it's employing some form of copy protection which my Imagedisk PC didn't agree with) cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 7 12:00:19 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:00:19 -0400 Subject: ZFS - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/12 3:38 AM, jim s wrote: > I have a problem that cropped up that spans both old systems and flaw > maps / disks that have flaws to skip over and current technology. > ... > So, I have now got the situation where there is a bad spot in a file > (more complicated because this is part of a raid set, but bear with me). > If you power cycle the drive set they do a scan of the media with the > raid system I'm using (linux based) and hang before releasing it for > server operations. > > That is the only flaw that there was, and I had a brick. Thank heaven I > could put it in a desktop system and recover the data (7tb of it). > > Anyway, have we lost the capability with such as Linux to run with flaws > growing on media at the level where transfers from media come from the > drive target to the host, or did this vendor of raid equipment > (appliance was readynas nv2+) have a flaw in their bringup procedure. > > I am glad I shopped and got a system with raid 5 support like this with > a linux system that I could take out and troubleshoot with any linux > tools, rather than hardware raid. Dodged that bullet. > Have you looked into the integrity-by-design of ZFS? (Sadly now owned by Oracle, but forked as open source.) --Toby > Jim > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 7 12:36:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:36:25 -0400 Subject: ZFS - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5071BD99.1010304@neurotica.com> On 10/07/2012 01:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Have you looked into the integrity-by-design of ZFS? (Sadly now owned by > Oracle, but forked as open source.) Seconded. I'm now to the point where I grumble if I have to bother with a system NOT running ZFS. I even use it on my desktop machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 7 12:41:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 13:41:37 -0400 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. In-Reply-To: <83E0588E-8C13-42FA-BC94-6175DACDF585@mail2.cu-portland.edu> References: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> <83E0588E-8C13-42FA-BC94-6175DACDF585@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Message-ID: <5071BED1.2000204@neurotica.com> I'm out of the game on this one, budget is gone for this month. :-( -Dave On 10/06/2012 10:27 PM, Benjamin Huntsman wrote: > Anyone from here bidding? > > > > On Oct 6, 2012, at 2:22 PM, "jim s" wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 >> >> As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. >> >> They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and cms for setting up the system, not much else. >> >> thanks >> Jim > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Oct 7 14:44:44 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 12:44:44 -0700 Subject: Pick, coherent, copy deluxe and 68020 sold - Other items. In-Reply-To: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Items still available: 100 AM27c2048 EPROMs - Now $20/OBO PC Elevator 386/387 co-processor card - Now $45 Spectre GCR - reasonable offer considered New items: 16 Bit ISA NEC MVA1024 video card, VGA - Uses TMS34010-40 - $40 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148222&img=video-1.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148223&img=video-1-back.jp.jpg 16 Bit ISA Number Nine video card, VGA / RGB - Uses TMS34010-40 - $40 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148224&img=video-2.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148225&img=video-2-back.jp.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148226&img=video-2-io.jpg Both for $75 - Paypal friends option + shipping - 3.5% + for instapay or CC Thanks, - jim From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 7 14:57:29 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:57:29 -0700 Subject: ZFS - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071BD99.1010304@neurotica.com> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> <5071BD99.1010304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5071DEA9.10505@jwsss.com> On 10/7/2012 10:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/07/2012 01:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Have you looked into the integrity-by-design of ZFS? (Sadly now owned by >> Oracle, but forked as open source.) > Seconded. I'm now to the point where I grumble if I have to bother > with a system NOT running ZFS. I even use it on my desktop machine. > > -Dave > The choice for systems with resources make sense, but for smaller systems I've had memory problems with ZFS blowing the system up. For instance a freenas system with 512mb pigs out with ZFS and won't support the file system. This system is a fully embedded linux, in that it boots to linux from flash, then installs an "operating" linux on the hard drives with full operational features after initialization. There is nothing odd about the build other than it is a bit old kernel wise now. I don't know if they had ZFS as an open source embedded option when they first made the system. The system is from Infarant and the main bit of technology they had was a single chip system with 4 sata ports, and 2 1gb network ports and a 32bit sparc on a chip. The original selling method was to get a mini-itx box and the original board they made which is what is in the readynas-1000s now could be dropped in. So their design decision didn't include ZFS unless it was there and stable in 2007, which I don't think it was. The main tradeoff is that they used a 16k block size to fit the sparc / linux file system driver quirk of needing disk block size to match the system paging block size. you have to use a special efs3 driver to get to the drives on an Intel system. The nice thing is that there isn't anything but Linux to tempt them to be non standard, though they have a pretty nice and complicated raid management driver system in their operational firmware. They put efs3 boot images for the operational firmware on a partition on every drive for quick booting once you initialize the drives, so if a drive fails, they still get to the operational firmware faster than whatever they have it in their onboard flash. The main reason for the posting was the fact that this enhanced driver scans the media and hangs prior to going "live" and responding to their admin pages, or making their services and access to data "live" which makes it a brick. That makes my question about older systems which could deal with disk drives growing real errors and continuing to work to the group here my main topic. thanks for the ZFS suggestion though. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 7 15:10:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:10:49 -0400 Subject: nice displays, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50705CF1.4060707@gmail.com> References: <50660C6C.2060006@neurotica.com> <506F81FB.2030200@gmail.com> <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> <50705CF1.4060707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5071E1C9.4070202@neurotica.com> On 10/06/2012 12:31 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's a shame that there's not much else beyond a clock that lends itself > well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a > postcard... Well there are sorta-related things. Thermometer, barometer, hygrometer...all very easy to do these days if you know a bit of electronics, and of value even to disinterested and as-yet-unflushed spouses. > What would be pretty cool would be a Sudoku grid formed with some cool > ol' display technology, but as you say these kinds of things seem to > sell for not insignificant sums these days. Yeah. >>> I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other >>> day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in >>> it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff... >> >> Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too. > > To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking > some drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so > I assume the green-blue type aren't much different. They're much easier. The ones I've used need 20-30VDC for segment drive. > There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store which keeps tempting > me, as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with > custom VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off > behind a bezel and just expose the numeric part). Eh. "General use" VFDs are everywhere, and still made new of course. There are some really nice Russian ones that I've played with, the IV-17, readily available cheap (new!) on eBay. Leads, not pins. See: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd-powered.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 7 16:04:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 14:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pick and Coherent O/S packages for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2012, jim davis wrote: > Pick operating system PC3 R83 V3.1.01 May 91 - 10 user license - $30.00 > http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148202&img=pick.jpg > Jim, I'M VERY interested in this - are the activation codes present with it in order to bring it up? Tnx! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 7 16:52:56 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:52:56 +0200 Subject: FS: HP 9845B, HP 9826A, HP Integral Message-ID: <002001cda4d6$200fb7b0$602f2710$@xs4all.nl> To make some room and pay for some new items, I'm selling some machines from which I have more than one. Before they go on epay I put them on the list. HP 9845B nice condition fully functional with German keyboard. HP Integral fully functional in nice condition. HP 9826A also fully functional and in nice condition. All machines come with some documentation and software on DVD/CD and sometimes the real books. Software is archived on DVD. Items are located in The North of the Netherlands I'll ship them worldwide.. -Rik From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 7 16:57:53 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:57:53 -0400 Subject: ZFS - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071DEA9.10505@jwsss.com> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> <5071BD99.1010304@neurotica.com> <5071DEA9.10505@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5071FAE1.8060607@telegraphics.com.au> On 07/10/12 3:57 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 10/7/2012 10:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/07/2012 01:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Have you looked into the integrity-by-design of ZFS? (Sadly now owned by >>> Oracle, but forked as open source.) >> Seconded. I'm now to the point where I grumble if I have to bother >> with a system NOT running ZFS. I even use it on my desktop machine. >> >> -Dave >> > The choice for systems with resources make sense, but for smaller > systems I've had memory problems with ZFS blowing the system up. For > instance a freenas system with 512mb pigs out with ZFS and won't support > the file system. Yes, 512MB is likely too small. I never ran it on anything less than 2GB. The bigger your workload the more RAM it wants. I always used to fantasise about a ZFS-lite for smaller/embedded; I am sure it is possible. Maybe btrfs will scale down further. > > This system is a fully embedded linux, in that it boots to linux from > flash, then installs an "operating" linux on the hard drives with full > operational features after initialization. There is nothing odd about > the build other than it is a bit old kernel wise now. > > I don't know if they had ZFS as an open source embedded option when they > first made the system. The system is from Infarant and the main bit of > technology they had was a single chip system with 4 sata ports, and 2 > 1gb network ports and a 32bit sparc on a chip. The original selling > method was to get a mini-itx box and the original board they made which > is what is in the readynas-1000s now could be dropped in. > > So their design decision didn't include ZFS unless it was there and > stable in 2007, which I don't think it was. It was in production by 2007, but has tightened up a bit since then. Takes a long time to shake down a filesystem completely :) --Toby > ... > thanks for the ZFS suggestion though. > > Jim > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 7 18:37:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:37:26 -0600 Subject: Pick, coherent, copy deluxe and 68020 sold - Other items. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim, We had talked about a bunch of Tektronix gear and you were supposed to send me some pictures. I never got pictures and you haven't replied to my mail; what's the deal? Last email I got from you was June 4. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From david at classiccomputing.com Sun Oct 7 19:50:48 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 20:50:48 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [AHCS] NorthStar Horizon Boot Disks References: Message-ID: <7071CBF8-DA22-4F60-9804-9264A00B0F8F@classiccomputing.com> Can anyone help my friend Kyle out? Please email him directly - kylevowen at gmail.com > I'm trying to revive a N* Horizon, and as I've found out, you have to have a booting machine to make boot disks. In order to have a booting machine, you either need a boot disk or a ROM board. My processor board doesn't have a ROM option, so I'm out of luck. I have supposedly 4 boot disks, but none of these seem to get the computer booting, though I hear the drive head move back and forth as it seems to read the disk. I still don't get any output into the right serial port. > > Does anyone have access to a bootable Horizon? I have a few hard sector floppies, so if I could get a boot disk copied, that'd be great. Optimally, I'd like to try to read these disks on a known working machine before having to overwrite any. Two aren't labeled, so they may very well be blank. All of the others have labels indicating some possibly neat programs, like Microstat, WordStar, and Mailing List Utility. About half of the disks are labeled Care. Care System, Care Data, Care Source Code, and so on. Any idea what the Care System could be? Another one is from Validata Computer and Research Corporation, which apparently is still alive an well in Montgomery, AL. It's entitled "5 Meg Hard Disk Start Up Diskette for Worcs, PM, Care Systems". No telling, eh? > > My system has a CompuPro 24k SRAM card (with only 20k populated), a N* RAM16-A3 16k RAM card (fully populated), a N* ZPB-A2 processor card (no ROM option) and a N* MDS-AD3 double density floppy controller, all on a N* HRZ-MB-3 motherboard. From the double density FC, I would indeed need a DD boot disk. Judging from the date codes, I would date this particular machine to 1979. > > Thanks, > > Kyle Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 7 21:04:31 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 19:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" drives needed... Message-ID: I'm working on a project to add 3.5" high-density drives to my Kaypro in order to use DSDD media with them. I chose HD drives because getting genuine DSDD 3.5 drives for anything resembling a reasonable price is basically impossible. It turns out that I don't have any 3.5" drives in my stash any longer. If you've got a pair of working 3.5" drives with drive select jumpers, I'd like to hear from you if you want to sell them. Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Oct 7 22:53:14 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 23:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message: 19 Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:51:12 -0600 From: Eric Smith To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern Message-ID: <50715090.2020207 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 10/07/2012 01:38 AM, jim s wrote: > recently I had a system with a 1.5tb seagate grow a count of > "uncorrectable offline sector count" errors. [...] To complicate > things a bit this was part of a LVM raid ext3 raid 5 set, When you have a drive go bad in a RAID 5, it's best to pull the drive, put a new one in its place, and start a rebuild. That's the point of using RAID 5. Trying to recover data from the failing drive is mostly a waste of time. Of course, if the drive wasn't in a RAID 5, mirror, etc., you wouldn't have that option. My experience is that once it starts it just gets worse, especially with the newer drives (>100 or so GB) - junk the drive and put a new one in. In fact, based on what I've seen and heard I'd replace more of the drives once you get the bad drive replaced and the array rebuilt, especially if the drives are from the same batch. Marginal drives can and do go out during rebuilds. Of course, if the data on the array isn't critical then this becomes much more flexible- but if it is then you don't want to have your second drive go at some point in the near future, then the third give up while you're attempting to rebuild the array after the second disk's failure. Any reason you're recovering data from the drive rather than rebuilding? I'd go along with Eric here - if you rebuild then you're starting with a known-good array, rather than potentially having errors in your replacement drive. This isn't just anecdotes, either - I've seen numbers. That's one reason I've gone to mirrors on my few critical installations. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 7 23:12:49 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ATA over Ethernet was disk image server Message-ID: <1349669569.39283.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been in talk with a company[1] who dose ATA over Ethernet hardwareabout the option of allow our retro/vintage computer to have their hard drive data stored on the network (cloud storage) currently the only option is to? use a linux based system :( PS: he owns a? 26 year old 8-bit casio personal calculator [1] http://www.jwe.com.tw/ --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From bpettitx at comcast.net Sun Oct 7 23:48:44 2012 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 21:48:44 -0700 Subject: Whale Oil Redeux Message-ID: Resend. My messages haven't been making it to the list. From: "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On a related note, a friend of mine found in his collection a full > sealed can of whale oil, from ADM, no less. We are not sure what to do > with it. If it's really old, then it might be for illumination (burned). But ISTR that whale oil was also used for lubricating instruments, such as clocks and watches. So it might be worth quite a bit, assuming the stuff doesn't go rancid with age. --Chuck Whale oil was used in a lot of precise mechanical devices that required a fine stable oil that didn't gum up. Clocks and watches were one application, as were some early mechanical calculators and toys. I used to carry it with me for working on Selectrics and teletype paper tape gear. Would love to find some more - have been looking for 20+ years for it. If your friend wants to sell it, I would be interested. Billy Pettit From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 00:54:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 00:54:52 -0500 Subject: phillips p1000 model In-Reply-To: References: <504B0FF1.9020705@update.uu.se> <20120908114459.Q25682@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: a nice gentalman in europe emailed me the paper model he so kindly scaned and sent me for the p1100 :) http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9863/p1000j.jpg http://imageshack.us/scaled/landing/405/p1100b.jpg have to print them out and put it beside the model how cool is that :) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 01:08:48 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 01:08:48 -0500 Subject: Whale Oil Redeux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: check old airports On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > Resend. My messages haven't been making it to the list. > > From: "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > > On a related note, a friend of mine found in his collection a full > > sealed can of whale oil, from ADM, no less. We are not sure what to do > > with it. > > If it's really old, then it might be for illumination (burned). But > ISTR that whale oil was also used for lubricating instruments, such > as clocks and watches. So it might be worth quite a bit, assuming > the stuff doesn't go rancid with age. > > --Chuck > > Whale oil was used in a lot of precise mechanical devices that required a > fine stable oil that didn't gum up. Clocks and watches were one > application, as were some early mechanical calculators and toys. > > I used to carry it with me for working on Selectrics and teletype paper > tape gear. Would love to find some more - have been looking for 20+ years > for it. If your friend wants to sell it, I would be interested. > > Billy Pettit > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 01:26:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 02:26:15 -0400 Subject: Whale Oil Redeux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50727207.9020609@neurotica.com> Old airports? From maintenance areas and stuff? Interesting idea. -Dave On 10/08/2012 02:08 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > check old airports > > On Sun, Oct 7, 2012 at 11:48 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > >> Resend. My messages haven't been making it to the list. >> >> From: "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> >> >>> On a related note, a friend of mine found in his collection a full >>> sealed can of whale oil, from ADM, no less. We are not sure what to do >>> with it. >> >> If it's really old, then it might be for illumination (burned). But >> ISTR that whale oil was also used for lubricating instruments, such >> as clocks and watches. So it might be worth quite a bit, assuming >> the stuff doesn't go rancid with age. >> >> --Chuck >> >> Whale oil was used in a lot of precise mechanical devices that required a >> fine stable oil that didn't gum up. Clocks and watches were one >> application, as were some early mechanical calculators and toys. >> >> I used to carry it with me for working on Selectrics and teletype paper >> tape gear. Would love to find some more - have been looking for 20+ years >> for it. If your friend wants to sell it, I would be interested. >> >> Billy Pettit >> >> >> >> >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 8 05:23:23 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 06:23:23 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [AHCS] NorthStar Horizon Boot Disks In-Reply-To: <7071CBF8-DA22-4F60-9804-9264A00B0F8F@classiccomputing.com> References: <7071CBF8-DA22-4F60-9804-9264A00B0F8F@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <5072A99B.8060308@verizon.net> On 10/07/2012 08:50 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Can anyone help my friend Kyle out? Please email him directly - kylevowen at gmail.com >> I'm trying to revive a N* Horizon, and as I've found out, you have to have a booting machine to make boot disks. In order to have a booting machine, you either need a boot disk or a ROM board. My processor board doesn't have a ROM option, so I'm out of luck. I have supposedly 4 boot disks, but none of these seem to get the computer booting, though I hear the drive head move back and forth as it seems to read the disk. I still don't get any output into the right serial port. >> >> Does anyone have access to a bootable Horizon? I have a few hard sector floppies, so if I could get a boot disk copied, that'd be great. Optimally, I'd like to try to read these disks on a known working machine before having to overwrite any. Two aren't labeled, so they may very well be blank. All of the others have labels indicating some possibly neat programs, like Microstat, WordStar, and Mailing List Utility. About half of the disks are labeled Care. Care System, Care Data, Care Source Code, and so on. Any idea what the Care System could be? Another one is from Validata Computer and Research Corporation, which apparently is still alive an well in Montgomery, AL. It's entitled "5 Meg Hard Disk Start Up Diskette for Worcs, PM, Care Systems". No telling, eh? >> >> My system has a CompuPro 24k SRAM card (with only 20k populated), a N* RAM16-A3 16k RAM card (fully populated), a N* ZPB-A2 processor card (no ROM option) and a N* MDS-AD3 double density floppy controller, all on a N* HRZ-MB-3 motherboard. From the double density FC, I would indeed need a DD boot disk. Judging from the date codes, I would date this particular machine to 1979. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kyle > My experience with these is before you put a disk in the drive it is necessary to insure everything is right and the controller works. Reason, In the past I've supplied disks and the controller/disk was configured wrong for the target system and would get wiped on boot or never boot due to system errors. The second thing is most of the NS controllers with socketed parts have developed bad sockets making them intermittent at best. The problem is often compounded when someone tried to shotgun trouble shoot by replacing ICs often with bad ones so then there are two problems to solve. In general there is not enough rom in a NS to troubleshot them conveniently. I have long since resorted to a CPU card with ROM/RAM/IO to sidestep the whole horizon Io and disk till there is enough working. Allison From rachael at telefisk.org Mon Oct 8 06:02:34 2012 From: rachael at telefisk.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:02:34 +0200 (CEST) Subject: John Draper interview Message-ID: John Draper interview, might be interessting to some here,it's in english dont let the tld foul you. http://www.golem.de/news/telefon-hacking-das-bewegte-leben-des-captain-crunch-1210-94815.html -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 09:21:03 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 14:21:03 +0000 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <606730492-1349706065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-477201782-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> That was my similar confusion with esd bags though. At first I thought they weren't conductive but later found they were which just makes me think itd be similar to foil discharge. Are tubes not good or is it that most folks don't have plastic ic tubes? (I fall into the latter category but I don't have any stock of ics to protect either). -----Original Message----- From: Tothwolf Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 7 Oct 2012 02:10:00 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? On Sun, 7 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> Aluminum foil is a great conductor of static electricity [...] > > That's why it helps. The danger is not high voltage relative to some > arbitrary ground; the danger is high voltage between elements of the > chip, mostly meaning between pins. That means that a low-impedance path > joining all pins will reduce the risk of static damage. > > Not eliminate it, both because the path is not perfect - it's got > nonzero impedance at best and thus can develop voltage between pins - > and because it's possible, especially after longer-term storage, for the > aluminum foil to develop holes large enough to break contact with the > pins. But then, those are true of conductive foam, too; indeed, because > its resistance is much higher, it is less protective against a static > jolt delivered directly to a chip pin. (What it _is_ much more > protective against is a jolt delivered to the foam.) Not /just/ mostly between the pins though. A common ESD event likely to do damage to electronic components is one where the potential of the material /inside/ the chip itself is at a different potential to other objects in the environment outside of the chip. It might or might not help to have multiple pins at the same potential, and the foil may just give the discharge a larger pathway. The video that was linked to in the last discussion illustrates this type of discharge event perfectly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imdtXcnywb8 This is also why conductive foam isn't (or rather shouldn't be) used by itself and the foam and parts should really still be placed inside a static _shielding_ (metalized mylar) ESD bag. The resistance of conductive foam (typically 500k ohm to several megohms or more) also not only helps prevent damage from a discharge to the foam, but also helps prevent a charge from ever building up because the conductive properties allow a potential to /slowly/ self discharge through the larger surface of the conductive foam. Styrofoam or the pink LDPE foam are not conductive at all so offer no way to slowly bleed off any potential charge. Aluminum foil on the other hand, will allow a potential to rapidly self-discharge, aka an ESD discharge event, which is what we want to avoid. Those old static dissipative carbon black bags on the other hand tended to be very conductive (as low as a few kilohms or even less) which is why the black bags are not commonly used (or manufactured) today and have largely been replaced in industry by metalized mylar static /shielding/ bags. The old myth that storing components or pc boards in foil will protect them has been disproven again and again yet it still comes up from time to time. From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Oct 8 09:48:41 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 15:48:41 +0100 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 11:53:14PM -0400, Scott Quinn wrote: > In fact, based on what I've seen and heard I'd replace more of the drives once you get the bad drive replaced > and the array rebuilt, especially if the drives are from the same batch. Marginal drives can and do > go out during rebuilds. Of course, if the data on the array isn't critical then this becomes much more flexible- > but if it is then you don't want to have your second drive go at some point in the near future ... RAID != backup Not enough people remember this. If a second disk dies in *my* RAID, it's annoying, but I don't lose data. Well, I lose anything since the last backup, but given that those happen every 24 hours, it's not *that* much data and I can reconstruct it pretty easily. -- David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic Vegetarian: n: a person who, due to poor lifestyle choices, is more likely to get arse cancer than a normal person From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 10:07:33 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 11:07:33 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <606730492-1349706065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-477201782-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <606730492-1349706065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-477201782-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <40573B8A-65C3-4446-A0EA-1FCB60228C76@gmail.com> On Oct 8, 2012, at 10:21 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > That was my similar confusion with esd bags though. At first I thought they weren't conductive but later found they were which just makes me think itd be similar to foil discharge. They are conductive with very high impedance, which is important for ESD; as has been pointed out, straight-up foil will keep the pins at the same potential, which is good, but it won't keep a direct shock to the foil from going to the die if it's sitting at a different potential. Rubber ESD mats at least tend to be a few megohms of resistance, and I would suspect that the metallized Mylar is most likely fairly close. It's certainly not highly conductive. > Are tubes not good or is it that most folks don't have plastic ic tubes? (I fall into the latter category but I don't have any stock of ics to protect either). Depends on the tubes. Lots of them are "ESD Protected" or some such, but I've never been able to determine exactly what that means. The tubes at least tend to keep you from touching the pins directly, which covers a great deal of ESD problems (also bent pins, etc). - Dave From db at db.net Mon Oct 8 10:09:32 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 10:09:32 -0500 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 03:48:41PM +0100, David Cantrell wrote: > On Sun, Oct 07, 2012 at 11:53:14PM -0400, Scott Quinn wrote: > > > In fact, based on what I've seen and heard I'd replace more of the drives once you get the bad drive replaced ... > > RAID != backup It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due to not remembering this. > > Not enough people remember this. Sad isn't it. > -- > David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic > > Vegetarian: n: a person who, due to poor lifestyle choices, > is more likely to get arse cancer than a normal person Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Oct 8 10:11:56 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 11:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk flaws, classic vs modern Message-ID: <8CF737E63B686DC-19A4-185E3@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> David wrote: >If a second disk dies in *my* RAID, it's annoying, but I don't lose >data. Well, I lose anything since the last backup, but given that those >happen every 24 hours, it's not *that* much data and I can reconstruct >it pretty easily. Guess it depends on (a) whether it's personal or business and (b) (if (a) is business), how good your secretary is. I'd rather replace the disks than spend hours dealing with people who come in grumbling about their work for today disappearing. Also, for most non-miniscule businesses it's cheaper to replace the drives preemptively than it is to pay for people to recreate the work done since the last backup if more drives fail. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 10:43:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:43:31 -0400 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> Message-ID: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >> RAID != backup > > It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due > to not remembering this. RAID != backup != offsite backup! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 8 10:51:21 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 16:51:21 +0100 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 8 October 2012 16:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> RAID != backup >> >> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >> to not remembering this. > > RAID != backup != offsite backup! Yeah, I've had an entire SAN die... and take all the disks with it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 8 10:56:26 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:56:26 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/12 11:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> RAID != backup >> >> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >> to not remembering this. > > RAID != backup != offsite backup! > I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) --T From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 11:01:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:01:03 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2012 11:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> RAID != backup >>> >>> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >>> to not remembering this. >> >> RAID != backup != offsite backup! > > I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations > have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor > and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every > cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) I do. But then some people think I'm crazy for running grownup equipment with grownup procedures "at home". Granted "at home" in this case means a 14,000 square foot building where a few dozen web sites and 100+ email accounts and lists are hosted, as well as my "put dinner on the table" work, but still...if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 11:01:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:01:33 -0400 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5072F8DD.2010700@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2012 11:51 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >>>> RAID != backup >>> >>> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >>> to not remembering this. >> >> RAID != backup != offsite backup! > > Yeah, I've had an entire SAN die... and take all the disks with it. Eeeew. That sounds like a very long night! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 11:06:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:06:53 -0400 Subject: Where to buy conductive foam in the US ? In-Reply-To: <606730492-1349706065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-477201782-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1C866B12E45B4A659BDFC0D3DBBFFC81@vl420mt> <5070DD18.3060800@sydex.com> <201210070431.AAA24890@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <606730492-1349706065-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-477201782-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5072FA1D.8020202@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2012 10:21 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > That was my similar confusion with esd bags though. At first I > thought they weren't conductive but later found they were which just > makes me think itd be similar to foil discharge. Varying degrees of conductivity.. > Are tubes not good or is it that most folks don't have plastic ic > tubes? (I fall into the latter category but I don't have any stock of > ics to protect either). It's not like they're tough to find, or expensive. There's really no excuse for not storing ICs properly. Some people (not directed at you) are just loathe to spend even a couple of dollars to do something the right way, and somehow they still feel justified complaining about (say) blown ICs. I just don't get it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:20:05 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:20:05 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> RAID != backup != offsite backup! >> > > I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations have > you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor and replace > them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every cowboy sysadmin > configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) The IceCube datacenter at Pole keeps dozens of spare disks on hand for replacements, but there, you can't just phone someone up in June and get a disk shipped in overnight... well... it'll be there half-past sunrise, but that means "November" in this case. One advantage of a remote site is that you *know* you can't get parts in when you want them so you have to plan in advance and maintain a spares pile. No other place I've worked kept spare hardware around like that - when it dies, call it in and they send one (and you hope that a second disk doesn't die before the first arrives). Had that happen exactly once - disk 1 dies, call for replacement, 5 hours later, disk 2 dies, replace 2 disks in moments then spend days rebuilding the array from what backups there are. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:20:31 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:20:31 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> RAID != backup >>>> >>>> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >>>> to not remembering this. >>> >>> RAID != backup != offsite backup! >> >> I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations >> have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor >> and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every >> cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) > > I do. But then some people think I'm crazy for running grownup > equipment with grownup procedures "at home". > > Granted "at home" in this case means a 14,000 square foot building > where a few dozen web sites and 100+ email accounts and lists are > hosted, as well as my "put dinner on the table" work, but still...if > it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Absolutely. My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). It was totally worth figuring out how to bend a 10-foot length of 2" PVC conduit to go into the ceiling of our 6-foot basement, though (fun fact: 2" PVC conduit can bend nearly 90 degrees if you work hard enough at it). I'm not sorry at all, though; all our wiring goes neatly into the basement where the big switch is, and I have full gigabit wiring to my office on the second floor (and OM-3 fiber for when 10 gig is more within my range). I mean, I work from home, so there's that. She does see the ultimate value in having good equipment, at least. :-) - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 8 11:33:00 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 09:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 8, 12 12:01:03 pm" Message-ID: <201210081633.q98GX0ed16384202@floodgap.com> > > I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations > > have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor > > and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every > > cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) > > I do. But then some people think I'm crazy for running grownup > equipment with grownup procedures "at home". So do I. I have spare disks for the two small arrays I run, and I even have an entire new controller and backplane in case the array itself goes toes up. I'll be getting a full body double for the POWER6 as soon as prices drop enough. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Marry me and I'll never look at another horse! -- Groucho Marx ------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 8 11:38:53 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 09:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Oct 8, 12 12:20:31 pm" Message-ID: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> > Absolutely. My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort > to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through > the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). > It was totally worth figuring out how to bend a 10-foot length of 2" > PVC conduit to go into the ceiling of our 6-foot basement, though (fun > fact: 2" PVC conduit can bend nearly 90 degrees if you work hard enough > at it). I'm not sorry at all, though; all our wiring goes neatly into > the basement where the big switch is, and I have full gigabit wiring to > my office on the second floor (and OM-3 fiber for when 10 gig is more > within my range). Wow. I just have my T1 run, which is 60' of two lengths of UV grade Cat5e (one pair in one jacket, the other pair in the other jacket, with hand-wired jacks) through external flex ducts, and then three main backbone lines (10Mbit, 100Mbit and gig) between the server room and the office, wired into the attic. I split up the traffic so that I could segregate them by speed. The rest of the house uses relatively low-speed power line networking; I don't trust wireless. The T1 modem and the backbone switches and hubs sit in the server room, plus the exit node for the powerline Ethernet. I remember drilling the entry hole for the T1 lines and scaring a paper wasp nest. As a pasty white nerd, I don't think I've ever run that fast. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'm too old to use emacs. -- Rod MacDonald --------------------------------- From abs at absd.org Mon Oct 8 11:40:09 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 17:40:09 +0100 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 8 October 2012 16:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> RAID != backup >> >> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >> to not remembering this. > > RAID != backup != offsite backup! I setup a little HP MicroServer (very cute little box) with 5x2TB disks in a RAID5, and hit just this dilemma. Solution was to buy a second similarly equipped and use as the offsite backup. Of course you then have to worry about the security model of someone breaking into either your main box or offsite backup box (depending on the direction of your security gradient....) From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 8 11:55:10 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:55:10 -0500 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> On 10/8/12 10:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/10/12 11:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>>> RAID != backup >>> >>> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >>> to not remembering this. >> >> RAID != backup != offsite backup! >> > > I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations > have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor > and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every > cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) raises hand... I have spares as well as scripts that send me activity, volume capacity/usage, & SMART status daily. My bosses moan every time I order disks - why do we spend double on storage for EVERY server???? (ZFS mirrors) In a smallish storage environment, I've had 4 failed server disks in 3 years here, with no data loss and a total of 1 hour downtime. (ZFS, for some reason, threw a kernel panic over one of the failed drives). Also, I totally agree with whoever mentioned preemptively replacing disks. At three years of 24/7 service, they get replaced. Drives are cheap, my time and my users' data are not. Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 11:57:12 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:57:12 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> References: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Absolutely. My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort >> to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through >> the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). I ran "interduct" (http://www.innerduct.com/products/corrugated.php) from my basement to my back bedroom about 15 years ago and stuffed it with some Cat5, some multi-mode fiber, two 25-pair Cat3 telco bundles (phone and dumb terminals), and one 10Base2 for old stuff. There's still some room in there for a few more bits. >> It was totally worth figuring out how to bend a 10-foot length of 2" >> PVC conduit to go into the ceiling of our 6-foot basement, though (fun >> fact: 2" PVC conduit can bend nearly 90 degrees if you work hard enough >> at it). They now have a nice PVC heater/bender that I saw reviewed in Make Magazine recently. You stuff the PVC in a corrugated tube, plug it in and wait for the plastic to become soft and nearly limp. I presume one removes the hot PVC and bends it to shape before it cools (the review didn't make it clear if you are meant to remove power, then bend, then cool, then remove, or some other order of operations). I don't know if they make a 2" version, but the smaller version seemed to be quite handy for trivial shaping. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 12:03:41 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:03:41 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> References: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <34B021C0-015D-47D3-BD5C-BD5208CAB880@gmail.com> On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Absolutely. My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort >> to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through >> the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). >> It was totally worth figuring out how to bend a 10-foot length of 2" >> PVC conduit to go into the ceiling of our 6-foot basement, though (fun >> fact: 2" PVC conduit can bend nearly 90 degrees if you work hard enough >> at it). I'm not sorry at all, though; all our wiring goes neatly into >> the basement where the big switch is, and I have full gigabit wiring to >> my office on the second floor (and OM-3 fiber for when 10 gig is more >> within my range). > > Wow. I just have my T1 run, which is 60' of two lengths of UV grade Cat5e > (one pair in one jacket, the other pair in the other jacket, with hand-wired > jacks) through external flex ducts, and then three main backbone lines > (10Mbit, 100Mbit and gig) between the server room and the office, wired into > the attic. I split up the traffic so that I could segregate them by speed. > The rest of the house uses relatively low-speed power line networking; I don't > trust wireless. I don't have problems with wireless per se, but it has its uses. When we lived in a shorter house (which was rented, so I couldn't really perform modifications if I wanted to), I ran most of my vintage equipment on a LAN with a wireless bridge. Apple's Airport base stations actually do a very nice job of transparently bridging Ethernet and wireless for all purposes I've used them for so far. However, our current house is too tall and too dense for the wireless signal to be 100% reliable, and I've started doing enough high-bandwidth networking stuff for work that I want to be able to segment off the network into VLANs. Apparently throwing nearly 100 Mbps of multicast traffic over a LAN makes the slower computers (which are innocent bystanders) a little unhappy. :-\ As far as the fiber, OM-3 patch cables are only about a dollar a meter at Monoprice, so I figured I might as well run three up to my office just in case. I have a 12-port Keystone plate up there with 9 Cat5e jacks and 3 fiber jacks. I have little to no use for a T1 around here, since I'm not running a server out of my house (I run one out of my parents' house, but it's nothing particularly mission-critical, so they just have business FiOS). Regarding a recent discussion, it's a dual-CPU Opteron with 12 GB RAM, which was roughly equivalent to the 8-core Xeon with 96 GB RAM when it was built (around 2005ish?). It gets something like 100 hits a week, but I've found it invaluable to have a machine with a reasonable amount of horsepower sitting around so I can run offline computations (and now Minecraft servers). - Dave > > The T1 modem and the backbone switches and hubs sit in the server room, > plus the exit node for the powerline Ethernet. > > I remember drilling the entry hole for the T1 lines and scaring a paper wasp > nest. As a pasty white nerd, I don't think I've ever run that fast. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I'm too old to use emacs. -- Rod MacDonald --------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 8 12:04:23 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 10:04:23 -0700 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50730797.4090706@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/12 9:55 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > I've had 4 failed server disks in 3 years here, with no data loss and a total of 1 hour downtime. out of how many drives? From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 12:17:07 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:17:07 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:57 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > They now have a nice PVC heater/bender that I saw reviewed in Make > Magazine recently. You stuff the PVC in a corrugated tube, plug it in > and wait for the plastic to become soft and nearly limp. I presume one > removes the hot PVC and bends it to shape before it cools (the review > didn't make it clear if you are meant to remove power, then bend, then > cool, then remove, or some other order of operations). I don't know if > they make a 2" version, but the smaller version seemed to be quite > handy for trivial shaping. Well, I wanted it to remain straight in the end; it just needed to go straight up through the walls. The problem was one of simple geometry, specifically inserting a 10-foot pipe vertically into the wall-ceiling junction of a 6-foot basement. I didn't particularly want to cut it, and the pipe resumed its previous shape fairly quickly once I got it into the wall. I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also lucky that said space intersected my office). I ended up with a built-in channel running straight from the basement to the top floor for free; all I needed was to put a pipe in there so the wires had some guidance going down. - Dave From doc at vaxen.net Mon Oct 8 12:27:21 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:27:21 -0500 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <50730797.4090706@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> <50730797.4090706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <50730CF9.30800@vaxen.net> On 10/8/12 12:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/8/12 9:55 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> I've had 4 failed server disks in 3 years here, with no data loss and >> a total of 1 hour downtime. > > out of how many drives? Mmmm.... about 150 Doc From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 8 12:32:01 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:32:01 -0400 Subject: ZFS - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5071FAE1.8060607@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5071316D.8010204@jwsss.com> <5071B523.2050805@telegraphics.com.au> <5071BD99.1010304@neurotica.com> <5071DEA9.10505@jwsss.com> <5071FAE1.8060607@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50730E11.9040407@arachelian.com> On 10/07/2012 05:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Yes, 512MB is likely too small. I never ran it on anything less than > 2GB. The bigger your workload the more RAM it wants. I always used to > fantasise about a ZFS-lite for smaller/embedded; I am sure it is > possible. Maybe btrfs will scale down further. Here you go: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/zfs-file-system-on-raspberry-pi.html :) From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 8 12:33:35 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:33:35 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50730E6F.4030500@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/10/12 12:20 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 11:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> RAID != backup != offsite backup! >>> >> >> I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations have >> you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor and replace >> them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every cowboy sysadmin >> configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) > > The IceCube datacenter at Pole keeps dozens of spare disks on hand for > replacements, but there, you can't just phone someone up in June and > get a disk shipped in overnight... well... it'll be there half-past > sunrise, but that means "November" in this case. > > One advantage of a remote site is that you *know* you can't get parts > in when you want them so you have to plan in advance and maintain a > spares pile. No other place I've worked kept spare hardware around When ex-employer put in an Xserve G4 + Xserve RAID (2003?) we had spares of everything. It was a $40,000 system at that time (1.1TB online). It's not just time-to-order; suitable disks often get EOL'd before the originals fail. I just find it amusing that the cargo cult practice is to configure servers with RAID without thinking it through. (Or realising that RAID isn't state of the art.) :) (Obviously this doesn't apply to actual professional outfits.) --T > like that - when it dies, call it in and they send one (and you hope > that a second disk doesn't die before the first arrives). Had that > happen exactly once - disk 1 dies, call for replacement, 5 hours > later, disk 2 dies, replace 2 disks in moments then spend days > rebuilding the array from what backups there are. > > -ethan > From db at db.net Mon Oct 8 12:37:45 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:37:45 -0500 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121008173745.GA19232@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 11:43:31AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >> RAID != backup > > > > It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due > > to not remembering this. > > RAID != backup != offsite backup! We are agreeing. It makes little sense to do a backup and leave the backups in the same place the computer system can get burned up. ;-) > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Diane Bruce VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From db at db.net Mon Oct 8 12:42:13 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 12:42:13 -0500 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20121008174213.GB19232@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 08, 2012 at 11:55:10AM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 10/8/12 10:56 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 08/10/12 11:43 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >>>> RAID != backup ... > > Also, I totally agree with whoever mentioned preemptively replacing > disks. At three years of 24/7 service, they get replaced. Drives are > cheap, my time and my users' data are not. Ugh. yes to this. in spades. > > > Doc Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 8 12:53:59 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 10:53:59 -0700 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <50730CF9.30800@vaxen.net> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> <50730797.4090706@bitsavers.org> <50730CF9.30800@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <50731337.4040009@bitsavers.org> On 10/8/12 10:27 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 10/8/12 12:04 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 10/8/12 9:55 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> I've had 4 failed server disks in 3 years here, with no data loss and >>> a total of 1 hour downtime. >> >> out of how many drives? > > > Mmmm.... about 150 > Interesting data point. Drive count is about the same as what we're building out right now http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/crafting-a-digital-repository/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 12:59:03 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 13:59:03 -0400 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > Well, I wanted it to remain straight in the end; it just needed to > go straight up through the walls. The problem was one of simple > geometry, specifically inserting a 10-foot pipe vertically into the > wall-ceiling junction of a 6-foot basement. I didn't particularly > want to cut it, and the pipe resumed its previous shape fairly > quickly once I got it into the wall. Gotcha. That's part of why I went with Innerduct - I'd worked with it in a commercial setting and was able to buy 100' off the reel at a local Granger's supply. If I were trying large PVC conduit in a short basement, I'd also consider a joint in the middle, but it seems that you worked it all out. > I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house > back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space > around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also > lucky that said space intersected my office). I ended up with > a built-in channel running straight from the basement to the > top floor for free; all I needed was to put a pipe in there so > the wires had some guidance going down. I had the same advantage in my 85-yro house (now 98-yro!) - next to the stackpipe is a laundry chute from the bathroom to the basement. The back bedroom shared a wall with that, and there was room around it to run the innerduct. I did have to rip a large hole in the bedroom wall to mount the various duplex boxes since it wasn't easy to find larger low-voltage boxes. Now, I can goe to Lowe's and get the big orange plastic wall boxes that even directly accept (with concentric breakouts) 1" and larger conduit. If I ever build a house, I'm going to run innerduct all over the place. The stuff is really handy to work with (and comes with pull-rope/tape already installed). It's specifically designed for fiber, but there's no problem sharing the space with twisted pair low-voltage cables. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 13:22:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 14:22:58 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50731A02.8020705@neurotica.com> On 10/08/2012 12:20 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations >>> have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor >>> and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every >>> cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) >> >> I do. But then some people think I'm crazy for running grownup >> equipment with grownup procedures "at home". >> >> Granted "at home" in this case means a 14,000 square foot building >> where a few dozen web sites and 100+ email accounts and lists are >> hosted, as well as my "put dinner on the table" work, but still...if >> it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. > > Absolutely. My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort > to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through > the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). She's obviously never had to move big files over a wireless network. ;) > It was totally worth figuring out how to bend a 10-foot length of 2" > PVC conduit to go into the ceiling of our 6-foot basement, though (fun > fact: 2" PVC conduit can bend nearly 90 degrees if you work hard enough > at it). I'm not sorry at all, though; all our wiring goes neatly into > the basement where the big switch is, and I have full gigabit wiring to > my office on the second floor (and OM-3 fiber for when 10 gig is more > within my range). > > I mean, I work from home, so there's that. She does see the ultimate > value in having good equipment, at least. :-) Sounds good to me! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 14:07:11 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 14:07:11 -0500 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: indeed that stuff is so handy. note don't forget to attach a pull rope to the wire ur pulling so u can pull another one next time. o and never run data cables next to power.... as the power will blead out a bit and can interfeer with ur data lines done lots of industrial work managing cable trays On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 1:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > > Well, I wanted it to remain straight in the end; it just needed to > > go straight up through the walls. The problem was one of simple > > geometry, specifically inserting a 10-foot pipe vertically into the > > wall-ceiling junction of a 6-foot basement. I didn't particularly > > want to cut it, and the pipe resumed its previous shape fairly > > quickly once I got it into the wall. > > Gotcha. That's part of why I went with Innerduct - I'd worked with it > in a commercial setting and was able to buy 100' off the reel at a local > Granger's supply. > > If I were trying large PVC conduit in a short basement, I'd also consider > a joint in the middle, but it seems that you worked it all out. > > > I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house > > back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space > > around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also > > lucky that said space intersected my office). I ended up with > > a built-in channel running straight from the basement to the > > top floor for free; all I needed was to put a pipe in there so > > the wires had some guidance going down. > > I had the same advantage in my 85-yro house (now 98-yro!) - next > to the stackpipe is a laundry chute from the bathroom to the > basement. The back bedroom shared a wall with that, and there > was room around it to run the innerduct. I did have to rip a large > hole in the bedroom wall to mount the various duplex boxes > since it wasn't easy to find larger low-voltage boxes. Now, I > can goe to Lowe's and get the big orange plastic wall boxes > that even directly accept (with concentric breakouts) 1" and > larger conduit. > > If I ever build a house, I'm going to run innerduct all over > the place. The stuff is really handy to work with (and comes > with pull-rope/tape already installed). It's specifically designed > for fiber, but there's no problem sharing the space with > twisted pair low-voltage cables. > > -ethan > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 17:07:48 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <201210081633.q98GX0ed16384202@floodgap.com> References: <201210081633.q98GX0ed16384202@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I consider RAID as an availability measure - but how many installations >>> have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures to monitor >>> and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, every >>> cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are the disks? :) >> >> I do. But then some people think I'm crazy for running grownup >> equipment with grownup procedures "at home". > > So do I. I have spare disks for the two small arrays I run, and I even have > an entire new controller and backplane in case the array itself goes toes up. > I'll be getting a full body double for the POWER6 as soon as prices drop > enough. Amen. Just in the process of building the new server. Picked up a Dell PowerEdge 2950 and have been putting together one extra of everything off of eBay. These are all coming off lease now and parts are quite inexpensive. I've been burned before with a 3ware SATA RAID controller dropping dead (those things run HOT), so a backup PERC/5i was the first thing I went after. Planning a Raid-5 array of WDC RE4 500GB drives with one hot-spare and an extra drive on the supply shelf. Even with the current server I backup to an LTO-2 drive on a regular basis. One set of tapes is always in my desk at the office - five miles away :-). The new box has redundant power supplies and I have a third one waiting if problems occur. The old server ate one high-end ATX supply per year on the average - and these were NOT cheapies. Seems like all consumer supplies are crap nowadays. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 8 17:17:11 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house >> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space >> >around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also >> >lucky that said space intersected my office). Off the computer topic here, but on topic of not burning your house down, there is a code required keepout between chimneys and hot exhausts that must not have combustibles there. If you are in a situation where they took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it probably isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they don't trust masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat leaks anyway. But if you are running something the creates creosote inside the system, you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right conditions. I have a house I can't get insured because of old masonry chimney which isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story. jim From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 17:29:37 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 17:29:37 -0500 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: time to get it fixed i would say being ur chimny On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:17 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house >>> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space >>> >around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also >>> >lucky that said space intersected my office). >>> >> Off the computer topic here, but on topic of not burning your house down, > there is a code required keepout between chimneys and hot exhausts that > must not have combustibles there. If you are in a situation where they > took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it probably > isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they don't trust > masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat leaks anyway. > > But if you are running something the creates creosote inside the system, > you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't > fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right > conditions. > > I have a house I can't get insured because of old masonry chimney which > isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story. > jim > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 17:48:16 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 17:48:16 -0500 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50735830.6000400@gmail.com> On 10/08/2012 11:20 AM, David Riley wrote: > My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort > to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through > the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). Just tell her that the alternative was to run it up the outside walls :-) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 8 17:47:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <20121008173745.GA19232@night.db.net> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <20121008173745.GA19232@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201210082247.SAA04167@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> RAID != backup != offsite backup! Entirely. > We are agreeing. It makes little sense to do a backup and leave the > backups in the same place the computer system can get burned up. ;-) That depends on why you're doing backups, the value of what you're protecting, and the cost of offsite storage. In my case, that means no RAID, but live mirroring to the backup machine, with live mirroring from there to a removable disk which I swap weekly with an identical disk on my desk at work (a fifteen-minute bicycle ride away). I've had two? three? drives fail since I started doing that, and all the bits have been safe each time. But then, I've specifically decided to not keep backups for historical archives or accidental deletion purposes (those being the other two reasons I've been able to come up with to keep backups). Ocasionally I've been sorry, but so far the cost of those incidents has been well below the estimated cost of keeping backups suitable for handling them. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jon at jonworld.com Mon Oct 8 17:51:39 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:51:39 -0400 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <50735830.6000400@gmail.com> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5072F8BF.1010202@neurotica.com> <50735830.6000400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:20 AM, David Riley wrote: >> My wife thinks I'm nuts for putting in the time and effort >> to figure out how to run a bundle of Ethernet and fiber cables through >> the walls of our nearly 100-year-old house ("Don't we have wireless?"). > Just tell her that the alternative was to run it up the outside walls :-) I'm lucky I have a passage along the sewer pipe that runs from the basement to the attic. Do you have balloon framing and/or firebreaks in the wall? -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 8 18:13:42 2012 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 16:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1349738022.7576.YahooMailClassic@web184401.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > >> It does not help if you have a fire. A few > businesses have been lost due > >> to not remembering this. > > > >? ? RAID != backup != offsite backup! Very true. That's why at work, we have a live backup file server for our production environment in the basement of the bank across the street from work. For home, I periodically burn DVDs of new data and take copies to work. > have you seen that have spare disks on-hand and procedures > to monitor > and replace them? (I am sure the serious ones do. Elsewhere, > every > cowboy sysadmin configures RAID on day 1... but where are > the disks? :) In the case of the products we build, the disks are spares marked as such in the storage array. If a drive dies in a redundant array (RAIDs 1, 5, 6, or 10), a spare is automatically pulled in and rebuilt. BLS From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 8 18:23:46 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 16:23:46 -0700 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50736082.5080902@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2012 3:29 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >I have a house I can't get insured because of old masonry chimney which > >isn't based on the ground. but that's a way long off topic story. > >jim > > It's an old farm house, my grandfather built. Noone required you to do anything then. He built an 18" square chimney from the floor up thru the roof, since the house is on rubble columns. The entire frame and structure is white oak, so no problem with holding up a load like that. However fire code apparently requires masonry structures for this purpose to be run to ground. So the fix is to pull his work and replace it with modern, or just live with it. I'm voting for the latter, it's been fine for 57 years. I hate retrofitting of new code to old structures, when what is working is working. People aren't permitted to use common sense anymore under any circumstances. This is a case where the code doesn't match the fact. I could also just pull the stove, it doesn't heat the place anyway, and when I go to occupy it put in forced air. Right now I only want insurance against wildfire and theft since it sits 364 days of the year with only jackrabbits around it. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 22:06:37 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 23:06:37 -0400 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 6:17 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house >>> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space >>> >around the old chimney... Not my quote, not my house. Some attribution was removed here. I had the vertical space between the stack and a laundry chute. *That* would no longer be strict to code since it's a large space with no firebreak, but the house was built in 1914 and in any case, the chimney is on the other end of the house (and was only ever gas, not wood, and isn't even used for the furnace since I replaced the old burner with a 90-whatever% efficiency model with PVC exhaust). No obvious code violations at my place. Nothing to see. Move along. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 8 22:13:43 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:13:43 -0600 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/8/2012 9:06 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I had the vertical space between the stack and a laundry chute. *That* > would no longer be strict to code since it's a large space with no firebreak, > but the house was built in 1914 and in any case, the chimney is on the > other end of the house (and was only ever gas, not wood, and isn't even > used for the furnace since I replaced the old burner with a 90-whatever% > efficiency model with PVC exhaust). > > No obvious code violations at my place. Nothing to see. Move along. You still have time to put that secret passage between the lab and the living room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :) > -ethan > Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 8 22:57:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:57:53 -0600 Subject: Datagraphix 132A terminal Message-ID: This is a rather interesting terminal being the only commercial terminal I know of that uses a shaped beam tube, i.e. a charactron style tube. Does anyone happen to have one of these terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Oct 8 23:26:29 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 21:26:29 -0700 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> On 8 Oct 2012, at 8:13 PM, ben wrote: > You still have time to put that secret passage between the lab and the living > room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :) In my case it's pivoting bookcases using absurdly expensive but uber-cool hidden pivot hinges. All closets look like bookcases, and yes, there's a secret passage to one of the outbuildings through one of them :) I went for interduct between floors as well. Stuff on each floor is just naked 5e sucked down through interior non-bearing walls; runs to outbuildings is cat6 in non-metalic conduit. And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the previous one to pull a new cable or you'll seriously hate life :P -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419 http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 8 23:38:10 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 21:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, Christian Kennedy wrote: > On 8 Oct 2012, at 8:13 PM, ben wrote: > >> You still have time to put that secret passage between the lab and the >> living room. You have a choice of sliding or revolving bookcase. :) > > In my case it's pivoting bookcases using absurdly expensive but > uber-cool hidden pivot hinges. All closets look like bookcases, and > yes, there's a secret passage to one of the outbuildings through one of > them :) > > I went for interduct between floors as well. Stuff on each floor is just > naked 5e sucked down through interior non-bearing walls; runs to > outbuildings is cat6 in non-metalic conduit. > > And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the previous one to pull > a new cable or you'll seriously hate life :P A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct with the cable coming in through a wye. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 8 23:48:30 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 21:48:30 -0700 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <5073AC9E.2050203@jwsss.com> On 10/8/2012 9:38 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the > basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run > cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the > duct with the cable coming in through a wye. A friend of mine wired a couple of terminals for a guy in Hays, Ks. who did his boring for wiring thru the floor from the basement with a .45. Luckily only three extra cables and terminals. He had to go to the car to get his ear protection. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 8 23:53:52 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 21:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the > basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run > cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct > with the cable coming in through a wye. I have used a crossbow, and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog" From steve at tronola.com Mon Oct 8 17:27:01 2012 From: steve at tronola.com (Steve Lafferty) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:27:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a DEC M8650 or M8655? Message-ID: <201210082227.q98MR7Z1075211@billy.ezwind.net> Hi Folks, I'm restoring a DEC PDP/8m, which is missing a serial (asynchronous) I/O board. Doe anyone have one that they would be willing to sell? Thanks, Steve http://www.tronola.com From jlobocki at gmail.com Mon Oct 8 18:11:43 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2012 18:11:43 -0500 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: References: <201210081638.q98GcrY016252990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Monday, October 8, 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > They now have a nice PVC heater/bender that I saw reviewed in Make > Magazine recently. You stuff the PVC in a corrugated tube, plug it in > and wait for the plastic to become soft and nearly limp. I presume one > removes the hot PVC and bends it to shape before it cools (the review > didn't make it clear if you are meant to remove power, then bend, then > cool, then remove, or some other order of operations). I don't know if > they make a 2" version, but the smaller version seemed to be quite > handy for trivial shaping. > I've used a propane torch from a distance back in the day, but i believe a heatgun would work as well From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 01:59:12 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 01:59:12 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a DEC M8650 or M8655? In-Reply-To: <201210082227.q98MR7Z1075211@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201210082227.q98MR7Z1075211@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi Steve, I have several of each. Where are you located? I'm in IL, 61853 Thanks, Paul On Mon, Oct 8, 2012 at 5:27 PM, Steve Lafferty wrote: > Hi Folks, > I'm restoring a DEC PDP/8m, which is missing a serial (asynchronous) I/O board. Doe anyone have one that they would be willing to sell? > > Thanks, > Steve > http://www.tronola.com > From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Oct 9 06:56:34 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:56:34 +0200 Subject: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <50731337.4040009@bitsavers.org> References: <8CF731F93D1B2A2-19A4-16149@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> <20121008144841.GA31284@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20121008150932.GA17326@night.db.net> <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> <5072F7AA.7020202@telegraphics.com.au> <5073056E.1060306@vaxen.net> <50730797.4090706@bitsavers.org> <50730CF9.30800@vaxen.net> <50731337.4040009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201210091156.q99BuYMS022505@ls-al.eu> Al Kossow wrote: > Interesting data point. Drive count is about the same as what we're building > out right now > > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/crafting-a-digital-repository/ > Interesting read! Any ETA on the article on _why_ you chose Archivematica? re, sander From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 9 07:53:14 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 13:53:14 +0100 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <53C1B90324964F15BC93A23B5E214258@MailBox> I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work. Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit. Works every time. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 09 October 2012 05:54 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the > basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run > cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct > with the cable coming in through a wye. I have used a crossbow, and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog" From stevew at ka6s.com Tue Oct 9 08:47:37 2012 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 06:47:37 -0700 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator Message-ID: <50742AF9.7040607@ka6s.com> From: Michael Kerpan "...I also have the operator's console from a B2700 but it's promised to a fellow list member." Mike - you gotta get it right. You have a "SPO" from a B2700 ;-) Steve (Small Systems & Medium Systems enthusiast ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 9 09:49:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 10:49:27 -0400 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50743977.80803@neurotica.com> On 10/09/2012 12:53 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 8 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: >> A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the >> basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run >> cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct >> with the cable coming in through a wye. > > I have used a crossbow, > > and a couple of times, I had my dog pull wire. He did OK, but nowhere > near as well as a dachshund trained for "earthdog" I've used a radio-controlled tank to pull cable through many a ceiling. That approach works pretty well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 10:09:00 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 11:09:00 -0400 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2012, at 6:17 PM, jim s wrote: > On 10/8/2012 10:59 AM, [David Riley] wrote: >>> >I was just lucky enough that the folks who had rehabbed the house >>> >back in the '80s and added an HVAC system had left extra space >>> >around the old chimney when they put in the duct work (and also >>> >lucky that said space intersected my office). > Off the computer topic here, but on topic of not burning your house down, there is a code required keepout between chimneys and hot exhausts that must not have combustibles there. If you are in a situation where they took an old brick chimney and lined it with a stainless insert it probably isn't the problem you would have if it were not. Usually they don't trust masonry w/o lining it after it gets old for gas and heat leaks anyway. Indeed! The folks who rehabbed it did it the right way; they ran the exhaust chimneys for the furnace and the water heater (which do get quite hot, along with ferrying and potentially depositing partial combustion byproducts) up through the chimney and ran the actual ventilation ductwork outside the masonry. They built extra space into the drywall, which is what I ran my conduit through (there was enough left-over space for a 2" pipe). There are some sort-of firebreaks going on between floors which the vent ducts go through, but they're not completely covering the aperture. I'm not 100% confident it would pass code, but it's what I've got for now. I'll have to ask a code inspector about it someday. > But if you are running something the creates creosote inside the system, you might have a fire which could set off your conduit if it isn't fireproof. Creosote fires for wood are common if you have the right conditions. We have all natural gas (from free range burritos!), so creosote isn't really a problem. Not that there aren't potential problems with partial combustion products of natural gas, but they're much less common, especially with a well-maintained furnace. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 10:27:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:27:48 +0100 Subject: Is your old hardware made of gold, or just DIRT? Message-ID: Why it's not worth much, unless it's really old http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/02/recycling_your_high_tech_gear/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 11:26:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 09:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <53C1B90324964F15BC93A23B5E214258@MailBox> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> <53C1B90324964F15BC93A23B5E214258@MailBox> Message-ID: <20121009092531.U99042@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work. > Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit. > Works every time. Use a loop, not a solid attachment, in case they wander around a post or other obstacle en route! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Oct 9 12:18:06 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:18:06 +0000 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598AD4@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Christian Kennedy Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 9:26 PM > And yes, always pull a new pull line when using the previous one to > pull a new cable or you'll seriously hate life :P We once learned the hard way that an electrician (a supposed union professional) used that green wire in the cable trays as a pull line-- and didn't bother to attach anything to replace it. This was in the computer room at the LOTS facility at Stanford. The company that sent the twit paid to run new ground wire, with pull lines. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 9 12:29:58 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 12:29:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Is your old hardware made of gold, or just DIRT? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Why it's not worth much, unless it's really old > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/02/recycling_your_high_tech_gear/ I'll let others comment before I say too much about this one. The tin whiskers bit though... as much of a problem as they can be in some HV and RF circuits (including oscillator circuits*), a much larger problem that I've seen has been the use of those damned lead-free solder alloys with BGA components, where the joints fail due to thermal induced stress cracking (often due to the difference in the thermal expansion rates of the BGA component and PC board itself). Of course, this is still nothing compared to the capacitor plague problem... *I picked up a second hand USB host card that had grown significant tin whiskers at the terminals of the two feedback capacitors in one of the oscillator circuits. I fixed this permanently by reflowing and then replacing the lead free solder used for those two capacitors with good quality tin/lead solder. The board still has another issue due to apparent rough handling by the prior owner though, so it is still sitting in the to-do project box. I have a number of these very boards in active use, but the capacitors used in the oscillator circuit on that particular board were different from my other boards, and so far this is the only one of these I've seen that had grown tin whiskers. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 9 13:22:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 11:22:35 -0700 Subject: Cables runs at home (was Re: Redundant Array of Inexpensive Sysadmins - Re: disk flaws, classic vs. modern) In-Reply-To: <53C1B90324964F15BC93A23B5E214258@MailBox> References: <507350E7.3080207@jwsss.com> <50739667.7000501@jetnet.ab.ca> <17A0DC67-4303-458C-B25C-8C1F1F75D72A@mainecoon.com> <20121008214923.G82418@shell.lmi.net> <53C1B90324964F15BC93A23B5E214258@MailBox> Message-ID: <50746B6B.8080505@sydex.com> On 10/09/2012 05:53 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I recommend Ferrets (Polecats) for this work. > Attach a line to its collar. Place a dead rabbit where you want it to exit. > Works every time. "Polecat" must be another one of those words that mean different things in the US and Blighty. In the US, a "polecat" commonly refers to a skunk (cf. Yosemite Sam). They might work for running cables, but I doubt that a customer would be appreciative. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 9 15:05:56 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 13:05:56 -0700 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. In-Reply-To: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> References: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <507483A4.5060503@jwsss.com> On 10/6/2012 2:21 PM, jim s wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 > > As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might > have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. > > They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and > cms for setting up the system, not much else. > > thanks > Jim > > The fellow sold it for 610 bucks. I don't know who bought it, the feedback count doesn't sound familiar to anyone I know. the seller was very nice and added an extra photo of the XT/370 badge on to the auction listing, which anyone interested should grab. All of the photos are very detailed if you make an archive of information like this, and are worth grabbing. also he added the listing of the c:\ directory, which I think looks like it is just an ordinary dos listing. I don't see any files that ring any bells with me about it being the xt/370 microcode. Again this seller was very nice and went way out of his way to post this extra information, and I salute his extra effort to get this info to me for the system. I hope someone here got it. I know Dave McGuire and I were both cash poor and couldn't even muster a bid by combining our idle pocket change this week for toys. jim From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Oct 9 15:03:52 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 16:03:52 -0400 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator References: Message-ID: <2752FF84AD65430E813FCD67AD553082@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 06:47:37 -0700 > From: Steven Wilson > From: Michael Kerpan > "...I also have the operator's console from a B2700 but it's promised to a > fellow list member." > > Mike - you gotta get it right. You have a "SPO" from a B2700 ;-) > > Steve (Small Systems & Medium Systems enthusiast ;-) -------------- Hi Steve, wrong Mike, but that's OK. What I have is the main nixie and indicator display and control console on the front of the CPU cabinet, under the clock at the very right of the picture below; I even still have a picture somewhere of me standing in front of it compiling one of my programs. I think the SPO you're talking about is the teleprinter on the desk to the left of it: http://www.smecc.org/burroughs-images/burrou4.jpg (The other) mike. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Tue Oct 9 15:33:13 2012 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 20:33:13 +0000 Subject: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. In-Reply-To: <507483A4.5060503@jwsss.com> References: <5070A0DE.9010805@jwsss.com>,<507483A4.5060503@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5782C16A7C920E469B74E11B5608B8E723B0EFA8@Kriegler.ntdom.cupdx> Anyone know if the winner is a list member? And yes, kudos/thanks to the seller for posting the extra info! -Ben ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 1:05 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: sharp eyes on another list saw an XT-370 system on epay. On 10/6/2012 2:21 PM, jim s wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/380481590039 > > As a side beg, I'd love any copies of the microcode that anyone might > have to share for the PC/370 or XT/370 cards. > > They are 5 1/4" floppies, probably a few with the microcode, cp and > cms for setting up the system, not much else. > > thanks > Jim > > The fellow sold it for 610 bucks. I don't know who bought it, the feedback count doesn't sound familiar to anyone I know. the seller was very nice and added an extra photo of the XT/370 badge on to the auction listing, which anyone interested should grab. All of the photos are very detailed if you make an archive of information like this, and are worth grabbing. also he added the listing of the c:\ directory, which I think looks like it is just an ordinary dos listing. I don't see any files that ring any bells with me about it being the xt/370 microcode. Again this seller was very nice and went way out of his way to post this extra information, and I salute his extra effort to get this info to me for the system. I hope someone here got it. I know Dave McGuire and I were both cash poor and couldn't even muster a bid by combining our idle pocket change this week for toys. jim From curador at museudocomputador.com.br Tue Oct 9 08:32:52 2012 From: curador at museudocomputador.com.br (curador) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 10:32:52 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. Message-ID: we need to buy 15 000 3 1/2 Inch Floppy Disk Drive new in box for our museum here in Brazil. could someone help us? with some donation, any amount helps. We also appreciate, as our museum needs to reopen. Please send by bank of Brazil (Banco do Brasil) agency: 2445-7 account : 8975-3 Associa??o Cultural dos Amigos ad Informatica . our direction if sending by mail: Museu do Computador - Roma Street, 75 - Itapecerica da Serra -SP 06855-410 Brazil Thanks -- *E-mail do facebook: jose.c.valle at facebook.com * *Cel CLARO: 8874-0100* *Cel VIVO: 9562-0211* *Cel: TIM : 5142-5559* *SKYPE: JOSECVALLE* *Twitter: @curadordomuseu* * * From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 17:19:09 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 19:19:09 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: Message-ID: QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "curador" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 10:32 AM Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. we need to buy 15 000 3 1/2 Inch Floppy Disk Drive new in box for our museum here in Brazil. could someone help us? with some donation, any amount helps. We also appreciate, as our museum needs to reopen. Please send by bank of Brazil (Banco do Brasil) agency: 2445-7 account : 8975-3 Associa??o Cultural dos Amigos ad Informatica . our direction if sending by mail: Museu do Computador - Roma Street, 75 - Itapecerica da Serra -SP 06855-410 Brazil Thanks -- *E-mail do facebook: jose.c.valle at facebook.com * *Cel CLARO: 8874-0100* *Cel VIVO: 9562-0211* *Cel: TIM : 5142-5559* *SKYPE: JOSECVALLE* *Twitter: @curadordomuseu* * * From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 17:20:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: belated apolgoy for attacks on nefarious individual known as HAATA Message-ID: <1349821241.89080.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> He's not a bad guy. I must have been cranky. I'm protective of my keytops, what can I say (and that dag nab NEC APC k/b SOLD! Curses! That's wasn't according to plan!). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 9 17:25:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 15:25:49 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5074A46D.20302@sydex.com> On 10/09/2012 06:32 AM, curador wrote: > we need to buy 15 000 3 1/2 Inch Floppy Disk Drive new in box for our > museum here in Brazil. could someone help us? with some donation, any > amount helps. We also appreciate, as our museum needs to reopen. Please > send by bank of Brazil (Banco do Brasil) agency: 2445-7 account : 8975-3 > Associa??o Cultural dos Amigos ad Informatica . our direction if sending by > mail: Museu do Computador - Roma Street, 75 - Itapecerica da Serra -SP > 06855-410 Brazil 15K DRIVES? Good grief, what on earth do they plan on doing with them? Sending by mail would be a real trick. Alexandre? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 17:31:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121009153058.L7072@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! 15,000 floppy drives could be used as bricks to build a building! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 17:33:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas ? QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 9 17:36:49 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 23:36:49 +0100 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> Alexandre Souza - Listas [pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com] wrote: > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete > assim?! Even floppy disks would be hard to explain (one heck of a backup?), but he seemed to write floppy disk DRIVEs. I can't imagine needing 15000 of either these days. Antonio From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 9 18:14:46 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2012 16:14:46 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. ( I replied by Facebook) In-Reply-To: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> References: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <5074AFE6.2000700@jwsss.com> On 10/9/2012 3:36 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas [pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com] wrote: >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete >> assim?! > Even floppy disks would be hard to explain (one heck of a backup?), > but he seemed to write floppy disk DRIVEs. > > I can't imagine needing 15000 of either these days. > > Antonio I sent a query by Facebook from the info in his original message. I'll relay what I find out. There is enough information on the facebook pages to suggest that the guy is actually related to a history musuem, but of course the place to send the money smells to high heaven and could be a hijacking by phishing people to this list. Any idea who approves and how these sorts of messages creep in here? Are they getting in thru forged email tricks, or is someone who is moderating approving them? Not critical, just trying to understand. This came up before with some of the odd replies that appear, asking for long ago listed available items that were discussed, where the correspondent seems to be replying to an old posting, probably from the archives or google. If all posts must be by approved or pre-approved list members, I wonder how these make it on the list and are distributed. thanks Jim From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 18:45:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 19:45:21 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> On Oct 9, 2012, at 18:33, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Alexandre Souza - Listas > > > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! > > C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. Um. a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. b) Alexandre (who is Brazilian) is relaying the translation of Chuck's incredulous message to the original poster (who is also Brazilian) in a language he may be better able to grok. c) If you want it in English, read Chuck's original message. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 19:01:38 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: David Riley Um. C: What language is that? Buddhist? a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. C: It's all Greek to me! b) Alexandre (who is Brazilian) is relaying the translation of Chuck's incredulous message to the original poster (who is also Brazilian) in a language he may be better able to grok. C: But he gave it in englaise originally. I saw no reason to switch to Brazilian-speak. ?Alexandre was just showing of anyway. We all already knew he speaks espanole'. No need to show off. c) If you want it in English, read Chuck's original message. C: I just want to eat dinner. Can I go now? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 9 19:18:06 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: MSDOS 3.10 docs, CCS S100 docs, and bubble memory data Message-ID: I have three things to get rid of. Free For Shipping. 1) Original copy of MSDOS 3.10 (docs only) in slipcase 2) Three documentation booklets for S100 cards from California Computer Systems (two DRAM boards and one M2422 multimode floppy controller) 3) "Tentative" data book from Texas Instruments dated 1977 for "Magnetic Bubble Memories and System Interface Circuits". It weighs about 3 pounds and will ship as media mail for three or four dollars from 93306 in the US. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Oct 9 19:24:57 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:24:57 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121009153058.L7072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! 15,000 floppy drives could be used as bricks to build a building! First thing I thought too. A 40 X 12 foot wall. Maybe hook up the drive selects and blink patterns? -jim From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 19:40:44 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <20121009153058.L7072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1349829644.39111.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: jim davis First thing I thought too. A 40 X 12 foot wall. Maybe hook up the drive selects and blink patterns? C: Wo that's a lot of friggin magnetism though. Maybe they're constructing an induction melting machin to reduce old autos to slag. And likely shut down or blow up the Brazilian power grid. Loads of candles burning in those barrios. ?Or maybe it's just an evil weapon of sorts. Like a Magneto machine from the X-MEN. For throwing large hunks of metal around. Crap. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Oct 9 19:39:55 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:39:55 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Guess I should have used a calculator, off by 2000+ drives. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jim davis Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 5:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Our Museum Need a special help.. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! 15,000 floppy drives could be used as bricks to build a building! First thing I thought too. A 40 X 12 foot wall. Maybe hook up the drive selects and blink patterns? -jim From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 9 19:44:03 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 02:44:03 +0200 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes Message-ID: <5074C4D3.6040402@xs4all.nl> This was software me my parents used in the 1980s on our family computer. Does anyone know how and where to obtain this, for old time's sake? Thanks in advance. - MG From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 9 19:49:45 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 17:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: power consumption Message-ID: <1349830185.48081.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> it's hopeless to suspect that a vintage 80s computer w/a built in monitor is color (not green mono) if it only draws 70 watts? From marcogb at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 9 20:12:18 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 03:12:18 +0200 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes In-Reply-To: <5074C4D3.6040402@xs4all.nl> References: <5074C4D3.6040402@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5074CB72.2070202@xs4all.nl> On 10-10-2012 2:44, MG wrote: > This was software me my parents [...] Sorry, that didn't come out right (as I typed it in haste and sent it out too quickly). Me and my parents, I meant to write. (This is my first post here, so I do not want to come across as an illiterate.) - MG From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:18:03 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 21:18:03 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <20121009153058.L7072@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Given the odd trend for using diskette drives as musical instruments... Floppy drive "pipe" organ? On 9 October 2012 20:24, jim davis wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:32 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. > > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! > > 15,000 floppy drives could be used as bricks to build a building! > > First thing I thought too. A 40 X 12 foot wall. Maybe hook up the drive > selects and blink patterns? > > -jim > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 9 20:27:21 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:27:21 +0000 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes Message-ID: <443627909-1349832440-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620815712-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Do you remember what type of system it was or what operating system? ------Original Message------ From: MG Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes Sent: Oct 9, 2012 7:44 PM This was software me my parents used in the 1980s on our family computer. Does anyone know how and where to obtain this, for old time's sake? Thanks in advance. - MG From jimpdavis at gorge.net Tue Oct 9 21:51:07 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 19:51:07 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was looking up drive step rates earlier this week. It seems that 1> mS is the top end for steppers. That would limit the frequency to 1 KHz. maybe interleave the steps, additive synth? A pile of old HD and you could get into the 1-50 KHz range? -Jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 6:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. Given the odd trend for using diskette drives as musical instruments... Floppy drive "pipe" organ? On 9 October 2012 20:24, jim davis wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:32 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. > > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! > > 15,000 floppy drives could be used as bricks to build a building! > > First thing I thought too. A 40 X 12 foot wall. Maybe hook up the drive > selects and blink patterns? > > -jim > From saquinn624 at aol.com Tue Oct 9 22:12:30 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 23:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cables runs at home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF74AC381FA181-19A4-28847@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> David wrote: >A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the >basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run >cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct >with the cable coming in through a wye. Gives new meaning to "pull". From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 9 22:28:23 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 20:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cables runs at home In-Reply-To: <8CF74AC381FA181-19A4-28847@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> from Scott Quinn at "Oct 9, 12 11:12:30 pm" Message-ID: <201210100328.q9A3SN5i17760270@floodgap.com> > >A friend of mine described a time when he found a cable tech in the > >basement of a new building using what was essentially a shotgun to run > >cable through ducts. I think it was a blank firing straight into the duct > >with the cable coming in through a wye. > > Gives new meaning to "pull". Sounds more like "push." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Isaiah 30:15 --------------------------------------------------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 9 23:50:15 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 21:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: MSDOS 3.10 docs, CCS S100 docs, and bubble memory data In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I have three things to get rid of. Free For Shipping. > > 1) Original copy of MSDOS 3.10 (docs only) in slipcase > > 2) Three documentation booklets for S100 cards from California Computer > Systems (two DRAM boards and one M2422 multimode floppy controller) > > 3) "Tentative" data book from Texas Instruments dated 1977 for "Magnetic > Bubble Memories and System Interface Circuits". These items have been claimed. Thanks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 00:33:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 22:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121009223327.H9958@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, jim davis wrote: > I was looking up drive step rates earlier this week. > It seems that 1> mS is the top end for steppers. > That would limit the frequency to 1 KHz. maybe interleave the steps, additive synth? > A pile of old HD and you could get into the 1-50 KHz range? put some rosin on the head From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 10 01:13:07 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 08:13:07 +0200 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > C: What language is that? Buddhist? > > a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. > > C: It's all Greek to me! NO greek. NO spanish. Buddish language don't exists. If you need some help with Spanish, Alexandre (I doubt), send me a touch :-) But this request sounds (with all my initial respect to the sender) as a 'Nigerian letter', with the difference that it appears to be specially destinated to this list. He can request a donation for food, or for one hospital, or whatever he consider, without response. tries to arouse the curiosity of the members of this mailing list. SPc. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 10 01:58:38 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2012 23:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 bits and change Message-ID: Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and Change"? I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was wondering if I should pass it on or archive it myself. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 10 02:05:00 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:05:00 -0600 Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50751E1C.4030807@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/10/2012 12:58 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and > Change"? I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was > wondering if I should pass it on or archive it myself. > You can do both. Paper information is still valuable. From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Oct 10 02:17:51 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 00:17:51 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Top posting due to silly following comments. I don't think 15000 3.5" floppy drives have any value over .03 usd each, Thats a couple hundred bucks for scrap. I've been digging through my pile to find a drive that will select 0, not 1 (pc default) for a Atari ST restoration. Jim- -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of SPC Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. > C: What language is that? Buddhist? > > a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. > > C: It's all Greek to me! NO greek. NO spanish. Buddish language don't exists. If you need some help with Spanish, Alexandre (I doubt), send me a touch :-) But this request sounds (with all my initial respect to the sender) as a 'Nigerian letter', with the difference that it appears to be specially destinated to this list. He can request a donation for food, or for one hospital, or whatever he consider, without response. tries to arouse the curiosity of the members of this mailing list. SPc. From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Oct 10 04:56:10 2012 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:56:10 +0100 Subject: Protext Message-ID: <20121010095609.GA16027@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> While having a clear-out at the weekend I found a set of install floppies for the DOS version of Arnor's Protext. Anyone want? I also extracted and threw out a *dozen* wall warts that were still plugged in to the power but not connected to any devices, and found a dead mouse that must have somehow wormed its way into the tangled rat's-nest of cables but been unable to find a way out. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist comparative and superlative explained: worse, worser, worsest, worsted, wasted From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Oct 10 05:46:50 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:46:50 +0000 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! He's obviously building a 21.6 Gigabyte RAID Array using a proven storage medium with a long track record, rather than these modern hocus-pocus terabyte drives that use pure magic to record anything and you never know where on the media it will actually land. Won't hold all of bitsavers by any means, but will hold like an eighth of it. 15000 floppies, times 1.44 Mbyte each, gives 21.6 Gigabytes. Oh, wait, he needs at least one drive for redundancy. Actual capacity = 14999 * 1.44 Mbytes. The 15000th drive carries the parity stripe, just in case any of the other drives ever fail. Tim. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 06:07:26 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:07:26 +0200 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:46 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! > > He's obviously building a 21.6 Gigabyte RAID Array using a proven > storage medium with a long track record, rather than these modern > hocus-pocus terabyte drives that use pure magic to record anything > and you never know where on the media it will actually land. Won't > hold all of bitsavers by any means, but will hold like an eighth of it. I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. Camiel From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 10 06:16:02 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:16:02 +0100 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On 10 October 2012 12:07, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building > an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with > software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. Maybe they want to restore a very large Windows 3.1 backup? -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 10 08:06:08 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:06:08 +0200 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes In-Reply-To: <443627909-1349832440-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620815712-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <443627909-1349832440-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620815712-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <507572C0.8010403@xs4all.nl> On 10-10-2012 3:27, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Do you remember what type of system it was or what operating system? Not exactly. It was a high-quality mid-1980s "IBM PC"-compatible by Olivetti, I believe of the same type which eventually was licensed to AT&T in America. I believe it was something in the lines of an Olivetti M24, M240 or similar, around 1986-'88. The problem is, a (much older and very cunning) cousin of mine took that system with the approval of my parents. I was too young to intervene and I didn't realize how nice these Olivetti systems were. - MG From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Oct 10 08:18:23 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 06:18:23 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Actually it can go higher. That limitation is based on a single step, from 0 to step to 0 movement. the steppers can go much faster if ramped up and down rather than just the single step. > From: jimpdavis at gorge.net > > I was looking up drive step rates earlier this week. > It seems that 1> mS is the top end for steppers. > That would limit the frequency to 1 KHz. maybe interleave the steps, additive synth? > A pile of old HD and you could get into the 1-50 KHz range? > > -Jim > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 10 09:04:24 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 9, 2012, at 18:33, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> From: Alexandre Souza - Listas >> >> >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >> >> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. > > Um. > > a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. > > b) Alexandre (who is Brazilian) is relaying the translation of > Chuck's incredulous message to the original poster (who is > also Brazilian) in a language he may be better able to grok. > > c) If you want it in English, read Chuck's original message. > d) Sit down, shut up and let the adults talk. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 09:58:16 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:58:16 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 10:00:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:00:08 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. ( I replied by Facebook) References: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> <5074AFE6.2000700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I sent a query by Facebook from the info in his original message. I'll > relay what I find out. There is enough information on the facebook pages > to suggest that the guy is actually related to a history musuem, but of > course the place to send the money smells to high heaven and could be a > hijacking by phishing people to this list. Any idea who approves and how > these sorts of messages creep in here? Are they getting in thru forged > email tricks, or is someone who is moderating approving them? Jose Carlos Valle is the "hero" who try to maintains the only computer museum we have in Brazil. I know this message is from him because the english grammar is consistent with his other messages. I just cannot understand where would he use 15K floppies :oD From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 10:04:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:04:18 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30076896977C4A0995A4DF4B0B7E2BDB@tababook> >Um. >C: What language is that? Buddhist? Umm. >a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. >C: It's all Greek to me! Nooo!!! Greek uses that strange (but beautiful) letters...Alpha, Beta, Gama, Delta... >b) Alexandre (who is Brazilian) is relaying the translation of >Chuck's incredulous message to the original poster (who is >also Brazilian) in a language he may be better able to grok. >C: But he gave it in englaise originally. I saw no reason to switch to >Brazilian-speak. Brazilian-speak ALIAS portuguese :P >Alexandre was just showing of anyway. We all already knew he speaks >espanole'. No need to show off. Hablo espa?ol, parlo italianno, parlez fran?ais, speak english, spretche (a bit of) deustche, and some more obscure languages, but I thought it was a personal mass-message, since it was directed to an empty list of recepients :o) >c) If you want it in English, read Chuck's original message. >C: I just want to eat dinner. Can I go now? Three jumps to front, a step behind and clap your hands. So you can go! :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 10:07:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:07:45 -0300 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <20121009153058.L7072@shell.lmi.net> <1349829644.39111.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B3E1D5C4187424F9F4DC146A33A52BC@tababook> >C: Wo that's a lot of friggin magnetism though. Maybe they're constructing >an induction melting machin to reduce >old autos to slag. And likely shut >down or blow up the Brazilian power grid. Loads of candles burning in those > >barrios. If he plug all the PDP machines he have onto our grid, it would blow up...Brazilian power grid sucks...And it is called "bairros" and not "barrios" hehehe :o) >Or maybe it's just an evil weapon of sorts. Like a Magneto machine from the >X-MEN. For throwing large hunks >of metal around. Crap. :oO The end is near... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 10:27:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:27:17 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> Message-ID: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2012 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. > > Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non > es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, the biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most people here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is "Mexican", they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize that: 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso 5. Mexico is a part of North America It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly every course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and even *I* know these things! I'm apologize for the way most of us are. We are just clueless, and we mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 10:35:09 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:35:09 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5074A46D.20302@sydex.com> References: <5074A46D.20302@sydex.com> Message-ID: <507595AD.8030304@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/09/2012 06:32 AM, curador wrote: >> we need to buy 15 000 3 1/2 Inch Floppy Disk Drive new in box for our >> museum here in Brazil. could someone help us? with some donation, any >> amount helps. We also appreciate, as our museum needs to reopen. Please >> send by bank of Brazil (Banco do Brasil) agency: 2445-7 account : 8975-3 >> Associa??o Cultural dos Amigos ad Informatica . our direction if >> sending by >> mail: Museu do Computador - Roma Street, 75 - Itapecerica da Serra -SP >> 06855-410 Brazil > > 15K DRIVES? Good grief, what on earth do they plan on doing with them? > Sending by mail would be a real trick. Giant FRAID array? Peace... Sridhar From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Oct 10 10:42:48 2012 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:42:48 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121010154248.GA20988@RawFedDogs.net> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:01:38PM -0700, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: It's all Greek to me! Greek looks more like: ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ??????????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????. Well, ancient Greek at least. :-) -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 10:55:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:55:12 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507595AD.8030304@gmail.com> References: <5074A46D.20302@sydex.com> <507595AD.8030304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50759A60.9050103@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2012 11:35 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> we need to buy 15 000 3 1/2 Inch Floppy Disk Drive new in box for our >>> museum here in Brazil. could someone help us? with some donation, any >>> amount helps. We also appreciate, as our museum needs to reopen. Please >>> send by bank of Brazil (Banco do Brasil) agency: 2445-7 account : >>> 8975-3 >>> Associa??o Cultural dos Amigos ad Informatica . our direction if >>> sending by >>> mail: Museu do Computador - Roma Street, 75 - Itapecerica da Serra -SP >>> 06855-410 Brazil >> >> 15K DRIVES? Good grief, what on earth do they plan on doing with them? >> Sending by mail would be a real trick. > > Giant FRAID array? I'm aFRAID already! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 11:00:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 09:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, SPC wrote: > But this request sounds (with all my initial respect to the sender) as > a 'Nigerian letter', with the difference that it appears to be > specially destinated to this list. He can request a donation for food, > or for one hospital, or whatever he consider, without response. tries > to arouse the curiosity of the members of this mailing list. there was no comma in 15 000 could it have been a typo, intended to be 15? I could see a few thousand disks, NOT drives!, for a gimmick mailing, souvenirs, etc. From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Oct 10 11:08:53 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 12:08:53 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010154248.GA20988@RawFedDogs.net> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010154248.GA20988@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <850E608D-45D4-44AC-9187-D3B1D4DCDC50@me.com> Hah! Amazing, another person who has used the textbook Athenaze! ?????! ??? ?????; Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-10, at 11:42 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:01:38PM -0700, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> C: It's all Greek to me! > > Greek looks more like: > > ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ??????????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? > ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????. > > Well, ancient Greek at least. :-) > > > > -- > > Kevin > http://www.RawFedDogs.net > http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net > http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org > Bruceville, TX > > What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! > Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 10 11:19:03 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:19:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, SPC wrote: > >> But this request sounds (with all my initial respect to the sender) as >> a 'Nigerian letter', with the difference that it appears to be >> specially destinated to this list. He can request a donation for food, >> or for one hospital, or whatever he consider, without response. tries >> to arouse the curiosity of the members of this mailing list. > > there was no comma in 15 000 > > could it have been a typo, intended to be 15? > > I could see a few thousand disks, NOT drives!, for a gimmick mailing, > souvenirs, etc. /...now where did I put all those AOL floppy disks?/ From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Oct 10 11:23:26 2012 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: Multi-lingual (Was: Our Museum Need a special help..) In-Reply-To: <30076896977C4A0995A4DF4B0B7E2BDB@tababook> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <30076896977C4A0995A4DF4B0B7E2BDB@tababook> Message-ID: <20121010162326.GA21275@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:04:18PM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Hablo espa?ol, parlo italianno, parlez fran?ais, speak english, > spretche (a bit of) deustche, and some more obscure languages, I'm impressed!! I took Spanish I in high school and hated it. It was the only class I almost failed. Well, more precisely I hated having to take any foreign language. I wasn't crazy about English class either. Now years later I've become fascinated by foreign languages. My parents speak Cajun French. I regret not learning it as a kid. I've tried learning a few foreign languages but have never gotten very far with any of them. Trying to learn foreign grammar I wish I'd paid more attention to English grammar in school. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Oct 10 11:27:49 2012 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:27:49 -0500 Subject: Ancient Greek (Was: Our Museum Need a special help..) In-Reply-To: <850E608D-45D4-44AC-9187-D3B1D4DCDC50@me.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010154248.GA20988@RawFedDogs.net> <850E608D-45D4-44AC-9187-D3B1D4DCDC50@me.com> Message-ID: <20121010162749.GB21275@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 12:08:53PM -0400, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hah! Amazing, another person who has used the textbook Athenaze! Unfortunately I dropped out of the Athenaze group. I'm about to join the new group that'll be using Greek to GCSE. Hopefully I'll get a little further this time. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 11:55:54 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 09:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Protext Message-ID: <1349888154.55498.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> why not archive those floppies prior to or instead of mailing them out. ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 2:56 AM PDT David Cantrell wrote: >While having a clear-out at the weekend I found a set of install >floppies for the DOS version of Arnor's Protext. Anyone want? > >I also extracted and threw out a *dozen* wall warts that were still >plugged in to the power but not connected to any devices, and found a >dead mouse that must have somehow wormed its way into the tangled >rat's-nest of cables but been unable to find a way out. > >-- >David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist > >comparative and superlative explained: > > worse, worser, worsest, worsted, wasted From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 12:10:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20121010095735.N30429@shell.lmi.net> > > QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > 15000 floppies, times 1.44 Mbyte each, gives 21.6 Gigabytes. Only for a truly BOGUS definition of "Gigabyte" (2^10 * 10^6)??!? For an HONEST definition of Gigabyte (2^30) it is about 20.6 The MARKETING people named those disks "1.44M" because they redefined MB to be 1024 * 1000. a MB of 1024 K makes them 1.4 M. I'm willing to bet that EVERYBODY on this list is capable of multiplying 80 * 2 * 18 * 512 Let's get 15,000 (or 15 000 as in the original request) and let's see how much they REALLY hold! 'FRAID to do so? One of the casinoes in Vegas makes a big deal out of having "ONE MILLION DOLLARS!" in cash on display. 20G of floppies would be more fun! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 12:17:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 13:17:27 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:16 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > On 10 October 2012 12:07, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > >> I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building >> an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with >> software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. > > Maybe they want to restore a very large Windows 3.1 backup? Testing a Windows 8 floppy install? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 12:25:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'FRAID that Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <20121010101138.R30429@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building > an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with > software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. They will need 14 bits of address select for them! That would handle 16383 drives. Does that mean that they already have 1383 drives already online? (That is 16383, NOT 16384, because 0000000000000000 is reserved for "NO DRIVE(S) SELECTED") The calling protocol for INT13h could only handle 127 floppy drives, since the high bit of the 8 bit value is reserved for hard disks. Some hardware mods would be needed, and most versions of INT13h would require some tweaking. Isn't MS-DOS limited to 63 drive letters? (and some versions won't let you go past 'Z'!) What OS's have a 14 bit (or 16) for the drive number? Each drive better have motor-on with drive select. Having 15000 drive motors running might be a problem for the power supply! How much 5V and 12V would be needed for the 'FRAID? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 10 12:35:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 10:35:39 -0700 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> On 10/10/2012 08:27 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > 5. Mexico is a part of North America And the division of the New World into North and South America as separate continents is not a universal convention. In particular, many Spanish-speaking countries refer to the North and South American sub-continents. --Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 13:13:43 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 11:13:43 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. ( I replied by Facebook) In-Reply-To: References: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> <5074AFE6.2000700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Jose Carlos Valle is the "hero" who try to maintains the only computer > museum we have in Brazil. I know this message is from him because the > english grammar is consistent with his other messages. I just cannot > understand where would he use 15K floppies :oD 3 1/2" Floppies would make a great business card for a museum - it would get attention . Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 13:31:41 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:31:41 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. ( I replied by Facebook) In-Reply-To: References: <285E329C02404D72975F4DE7C71C995C@ANTONIOPC> <5074AFE6.2000700@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Actually, a more "neat" business card for a computer museum would be one of those tiny "business card" CDs, with a LiveImage of , that automatically starts up to a some form of classic system emulator running a piece of classic example software. Example: PDP-11 running some RT-11 version, which has been loaded up with a few games. Would probably be a rather large hassle in temrs of licensing though. Still a cool idea. Cheers, Christian M. gauger-Cosgrove On 10 October 2012 14:13, Paxton Hoag wrote: >> Jose Carlos Valle is the "hero" who try to maintains the only computer >> museum we have in Brazil. I know this message is from him because the >> english grammar is consistent with his other messages. I just cannot >> understand where would he use 15K floppies :oD > > 3 1/2" Floppies would make a great business card for a museum - it > would get attention . > > Pax > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 10 13:39:44 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:39:44 +0000 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E23@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: SPC Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 11:13 PM >> C: What language is that? Buddhist? >> a) It's Portuguese, the national language of Brazil. >> C: It's all Greek to me! > NO greek. NO spanish. Buddish language don't exists. I want to address that last point. The earliest Buddhist texts are written in a Middle Indic[2] language called P?li, which is still the liturgical language of the Ther?v?da school of Buddhism. The texts of the other still existing school, Mah?y?na, are written in "Buddhist hybrid Sanskrit", a form of Sanskrit into which Middle Indic grammatical and lexical elements have been borrowed (when Sanskrit was a learned language of scholarship, like the Latin of 17th C. England--think Sir Isaac Newton's _Principia_). So Buddhist languages, meaning languages used specifically by Buddhists for religious purposes, did and do exist. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 10 13:47:29 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:47:29 +0000 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <850E608D-45D4-44AC-9187-D3B1D4DCDC50@me.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010154248.GA20988@RawFedDogs.net> <850E608D-45D4-44AC-9187-D3B1D4DCDC50@me.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E3B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Paul Anderson Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 9:09 AM > Hah! Amazing, another person who has used the textbook Athenaze! > ?????! ??? ?????; I rather like _Athenaze_, although I generally prefer Hansen & Quinn, and one always remembers one's first love^Wtextbook, which for me was Chase & Philips. Something about Mastronarde's book puts me off. I really like some of the textbooks from the early part of the 20th C. like Crosby, and would teach from one or more of them given a choice. I suppose I should mention that I collect Greek and Latin textbooks. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 13:48:04 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 19:48:04 +0100 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On 10 October 2012 18:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:16 AM, John Many Jars > wrote: >> On 10 October 2012 12:07, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> >>> I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building >>> an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with >>> software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. >> >> Maybe they want to restore a very large Windows 3.1 backup? > > Testing a Windows 8 floppy install? Badoom-tish! Actually, I think that was my favourite answer so far... :?) 2nd place, Rich's linguistics lesson. 3rd place, Fred's speculation on connecting them all up at once to a single computer. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Oct 10 13:55:29 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:55:29 +0000 Subject: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Rich Alderson Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 11:40 AM > The earliest Buddhist texts are written in a Middle Indic[2] language Oh, crap. There was only going to be 1 footnote anyway, which I forgot to include: [1] "Middle Indic" is a designation for the Indo-Aryan[2] languages of the period roughly between 500 BCE and 800 CE, descended from Old Indic languages contemporaneous with Vedic, Epic Sanskrit, and Classical Sanskrit. The Modern Indic languages are descended from various of the Middle Indic languages. [2] This is a linguistic classification, prior to the racialist adoption of the word "Aryan" to mean something entirely different. I decided in composing the 1st note that the 2nd was needed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 16:18:52 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. Message-ID: <1349903932.21136.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You werent aware that the expression simply represents a persons inability to decipher, and the inability to care? The second part doesnt apply entirely to me though, I am very interested in some languages, namely German, ancient Hebrew, koine Greek, Russian, Japanese, Chinese...roughly in that order (wish me luck!). Not loads of interest in Romance languages, but did take Latin and French in h.s. No I didnt pay very good attention either. Il es, tu es, je suis, la fanetre, le pupitre. Look right? ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:42 AM PDT Kevin Monceaux wrote: >On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:01:38PM -0700, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> C: It's all Greek to me! > >Greek looks more like: > > ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ??????????? ??? ?? ???? ??????? > ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????. > >Well, ancient Greek at least. :-) > > > >-- > >Kevin >http://www.RawFedDogs.net >http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net >http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org >Bruceville, TX > >What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! >Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 10 16:51:53 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:51:53 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <008701cda731$775b9860$6612c920$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 10 October 2012 16:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. > > On 10/10/2012 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete > assim?! > >> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. > > > > Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto > > non es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) > > In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, the > biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most people > here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is "Mexican", > they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". > > I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize > that: > > 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil > 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA > 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA > 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso > 5. Mexico is a part of North America > > It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly every > course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and even *I* > know these things! > > I'm apologize for the way most of us are. We are just clueless, and we > mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) > > -Dave > That is certainly the stereotype that we British have of the people of the USA (I try to avoid "Americans" because that should by rights include people from Canada to Chile), but I try not to believe in stereotypes, and although I am sure there are people like that in your country, I sincerely believe that there are more than a few who are not. That said, I was surprised by the parochial nature of one of the responses to this thread. If Alexandre knows this person then I think the best course of action would be for him to contact the poster to see if the email was genuine and not some hack/hijack of his account, as the post certainly has the hallmarks of some kind of scam. Regards Rob From abs at absd.org Wed Oct 10 16:54:36 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:54:36 +0100 Subject: 'FRAID that Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010101138.R30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <20121010101138.R30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 October 2012 18:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > The calling protocol for INT13h could only handle 127 floppy drives, since > the high bit of the 8 bit value is reserved for hard disks. Some hardware > mods would be needed, and most versions of INT13h would require some > tweaking. > Isn't MS-DOS limited to 63 drive letters? (and some versions won't let > you go past 'Z'!) > What OS's have a 14 bit (or 16) for the drive number? Don't most *nix like system use a 32 bit device number nowdays (those which still use traditional major/minor device splits), which depending on the split should give plenty of room. I wonder what the virtual SCSI adaptor limit is in qemu.... :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 17:00:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:00:29 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <008701cda731$775b9860$6612c920$@ntlworld.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <008701cda731$775b9860$6612c920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5075EFFD.5010105@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2012 05:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete >> assim?! >>>> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. >>> >>> Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto >>> non es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) >> >> In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, > the >> biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most people >> here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is "Mexican", >> they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". >> >> I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize >> that: >> >> 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil >> 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA >> 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA >> 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso >> 5. Mexico is a part of North America >> >> It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly > every >> course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and even > *I* >> know these things! >> >> I'm apologize for the way most of us are. We are just clueless, and we >> mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) >> >> -Dave >> > > That is certainly the stereotype that we British have of the people of the > USA (I try to avoid "Americans" because that should by rights include people > from Canada to Chile), but I try not to believe in stereotypes, and although > I am sure there are people like that in your country, I sincerely believe > that there are more than a few who are not. Sadly that stereotype is based in fact, as many are. It's not universally true, but I'll say the vast majority of people I meet fall under that category. And please ignore my glaring grammatical error ("I'm apologize"), it was an edit error with too much blood in my caffeine stream. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 10 18:47:50 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 16:47:50 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. (15000 diskettes, not drives) In-Reply-To: <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50760926.3080504@jwsss.com> On 10/10/2012 9:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > could it have been a typo, intended to be 15? > > > I could see a few thousand disks, NOT drives!, for a gimmick mailing, > souvenirs, etc. I picked up 5,000 disks about 10 years ago, for $10 / flat (1,000 / flat) at a back door sale at a storage unit. We were leaving ACP in Santa Ana, and one of the units had the door up and stuff tossed out with prices. Could also have picked up a stage smoke generator too for $50. I had enough of those at home with unconditioned caps. Seemed funny at the time. He had huge piles he got from a former partner in the rent that had acquired them from a service which turned out things like the annoying AOL diskettes for mailers with some crap on it. With the label already on it, the outfit scrapped about 100,000 of them. Not that big a pile. I don't buy 3 1/2" diskettes anymore. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 10 18:59:28 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 16:59:28 -0700 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <008701cda731$775b9860$6612c920$@ntlworld.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <008701cda731$775b9860$6612c920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50760BE0.7070903@jwsss.com> On 10/10/2012 2:51 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > If Alexandre knows this person then I think the best course of action would > be for him to contact the poster to see if the email was genuine and not > some hack/hijack of his account, as the post certainly has the hallmarks of > some kind of scam. > > Regards > > Rob I don't know if anyone else tried any of the other contacts posted on the list, but my Facebook message so far is unanswered. I sent it mainly because I was worried that it was a scam and possibly replicated elsewhere where the obvious errors might not have been recognized. If it was a scam anyone reading all of these followups now know what to change before reposting elsewhere to try to scam people out of money. If it is legit, it would be nice to have more info than the posting he originally made. I thought an offline reply would be better than these threads, which are about 90% hash. As Alexandre, it sounds like a worthy cause, just not sure if the solicitation is legit. jim From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Oct 10 19:20:46 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:20:46 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <507610DE.3030803@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/10/12 2:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 10 October 2012 18:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:16 AM, John Many Jars >> wrote: >>> On 10 October 2012 12:07, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >>> >>>> I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building >>>> an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with >>>> software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. >>> >>> Maybe they want to restore a very large Windows 3.1 backup? >> >> Testing a Windows 8 floppy install? > > Badoom-tish! > > Actually, I think that was my favourite answer so far... :?) > > 2nd place, Rich's linguistics lesson. 3rd place, Fred's speculation on > connecting them all up at once to a single computer. > > I mark my ballot similarly to Liam. --Toby From doc at vaxen.net Wed Oct 10 19:29:48 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 19:29:48 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349903932.21136.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349903932.21136.BPMail_low_carrier@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507612FC.7050406@vaxen.net> Chris, you are SO busted. This post absolutely puts the lie to your "Google made me do it" quoting defense. Color me trolled. Doc On 10/10/12 4:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > You werent aware that the expression simply represents a persons > inability to decipher, and the inability to care? The second part > doesnt apply entirely to me though, I am very interested in some > languages, namely German, ancient Hebrew, koine Greek, Russian, > Japanese, Chinese...roughly in that order (wish me luck!). Not loads > of interest in Romance languages, but did take Latin and French in > h.s. No I didnt pay very good attention either. Il es, tu es, je > suis, la fanetre, le pupitre. Look right? > ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:42 AM PDT Kevin > Monceaux wrote: > >> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:01:38PM -0700, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> C: It's all Greek to me! >> >> Greek looks more like: >> >> ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ??????????? ??? ?? ???? >> ??????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????. >> >> Well, ancient Greek at least. :-) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net >> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX >> >> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare >> humanum est, ignoscere caninum. > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 20:22:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:22:44 -0400 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. (15000 diskettes, not drives) In-Reply-To: <50760926.3080504@jwsss.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> <50760926.3080504@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Oct 10, 2012, at 7:47 PM, jim s wrote: > I picked up 5,000 disks about 10 years ago, for $10 / flat (1,000 / flat) at a back door sale at a storage unit. We were leaving ACP in Santa Ana, and one of the units had the door up and stuff tossed out with prices. Could also have picked up a stage smoke generator too for $50. I had enough of those at home with unconditioned caps. Seemed funny at the time. > > He had huge piles he got from a former partner in the rent that had acquired them from a service which turned out things like the annoying AOL diskettes for mailers with some crap on it. With the label already on it, the outfit scrapped about 100,000 of them. Not that big a pile. > > I don't buy 3 1/2" diskettes anymore. Do they still work? About half the 3.5" disks I've bought in the past 10 years or so were DOA and had soft errors after a format in an otherwise reliable drive. Most of the ones I have from the mid-'80s to early '90s still work fine 100% of the time. - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 20:37:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. Message-ID: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> what?? Top posted because its sent from my stupid phone Doc. When did I ever blame google for anything?? ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 5:29 PM PDT Doc Shipley wrote: > > > Chris, you are SO busted. This post absolutely puts the lie to your >"Google made me do it" quoting defense. > > Color me trolled. > > > Doc > > >On 10/10/12 4:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >> You werent aware that the expression simply represents a persons >> inability to decipher, and the inability to care? The second part >> doesnt apply entirely to me though, I am very interested in some >> languages, namely German, ancient Hebrew, koine Greek, Russian, >> Japanese, Chinese...roughly in that order (wish me luck!). Not loads >> of interest in Romance languages, but did take Latin and French in >> h.s. No I didnt pay very good attention either. Il es, tu es, je >> suis, la fanetre, le pupitre. Look right? >> ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 8:42 AM PDT Kevin >> Monceaux wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 09, 2012 at 05:01:38PM -0700, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> C: It's all Greek to me! >> >> Greek looks more like: >> >> ? ??????????? ???????? ?????? ????? ?? ? ??????????? ??? ?? ???? >> ??????? ???? ?? ???? ??????? ????????? ??? ?????. >> >> Well, ancient Greek at least. :-) >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net >> http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX >> >> What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare >> humanum est, ignoscere caninum. >> > From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 10 20:58:56 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 18:58:56 -0700 Subject: disk flaws, classic vs. modern In-Reply-To: <5072F4A3.8000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/8/12 8:43 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 10/08/2012 11:09 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> RAID != backup >> >> It does not help if you have a fire. A few businesses have been lost due >> to not remembering this. > > RAID != backup != offsite backup! And management questioned when I designed the digital image archiving system for a museum when I had the assets deposited to a farm of servers (each with a RAID array), then copied to a Sun server with a large raid array and a tape backup library that was running software that made the tapes look like part of the RAID array, and pulling a backup of new data onto specially ID'd tapes in the library that were spit out of the library once full and taken to an offsite temp/humidity controlled storage facility. One of the reqs for the system was that if a meteor hit the facility with the servers we could after getting duplicate hardware installed in a new facility we could restore from the tapes and be back online within 7 days From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 21:03:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 19:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121010185750.F40582@shell.lmi.net> > > Chris, you are SO busted. This post absolutely puts the lie to your > >"Google made me do it" quoting defense. On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > what?? Top posted because its sent from my stupid phone Doc. When did I > ever blame google for anything?? That is true! Chris has never blamed google for anything. Now, Yahoo on the other hand, . . . On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im looking > for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded itself > recently and no longer inserts the conventional >. Sorry I refuse to do > that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I saw an > Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently > necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never > seemed unreadable to me. On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > . . . > how to post" is a response to the bickering that seems to accompany > nearly everything I do (or *don't do*). I changed the setting, and you > saw the results (EVERYTHING followed arrows), so I had to change it > back. There's nothing I can do at this point, except contact Yahoo > maybe. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 10 21:27:36 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 19:27:36 -0700 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. (15000 diskettes, not drives) In-Reply-To: References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> <50760926.3080504@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50762E98.4080405@jwsss.com> On 10/10/2012 6:22 PM, David Riley wrote: > Do they still work? About half the 3.5" disks I've bought in > the past 10 years or so were DOA and had soft errors after a > format in an otherwise reliable drive. I've not had a dud. I don't know for sure these aren't 90's diskettes. They were back in original trays, from having some useless software and a purple and white label put on them. The guy selling them were selling them distressed, not as new. I don't know that they were 2000's material. and they all seemed to work fine as far as I've gotten. My total media haul is two skids worth about 3 1/2' tall, that is recorded, not new. Most bulk is in 1/2" tapes, weight in QIC (by unit). From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 10 22:06:53 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:06:53 +0000 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/10/12 8:27 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >On 10/10/2012 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >>> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. >> >> Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non >> es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) > > In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, >the biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most >people here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is >"Mexican", they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". > > I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize >that: > > 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil > 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA > 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA > 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso > 5. Mexico is a part of North America > > It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly >every course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and >even *I* know these things! > > I'm apologize for the way most of us are. We are just clueless, and >we mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) > I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and promulgating this jaundiced self-image. Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different elsewhere. There's also intelligence, understanding and empathy in this country. I do NOT mean the "white savior industrial complex" that believes all the brown people of the world are just waiting for "the West" to save them from, well, something or another. No, there are people who read and travel and seek to understand the world views of others. Those people come from other places, too, but they do also come from here. Dave, please don't color "most of us" as "clueless". This sort of self-flagellation feeds a tired stereotype that serves no one. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 22:25:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:25:01 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50763C0D.6090706@neurotica.com> On 10/10/2012 11:06 PM, Ian King wrote: >>>> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >>>> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. >>> >>> Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non >>> es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) >> >> In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, >> the biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most >> people here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is >> "Mexican", they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". >> >> I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize >> that: >> >> 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil >> 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA >> 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA >> 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso >> 5. Mexico is a part of North America >> >> It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly >> every course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and >> even *I* know these things! >> >> I'm apologize for the way most of us are. We are just clueless, and >> we mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) >> > > I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. > > I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with > this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as > distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people > who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and > raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or > explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as > Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and > promulgating this jaundiced self-image. > > Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism > in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different > elsewhere. > > There's also intelligence, understanding and empathy in this country. I > do NOT mean the "white savior industrial complex" that believes all the > brown people of the world are just waiting for "the West" to save them > from, well, something or another. No, there are people who read and > travel and seek to understand the world views of others. Those people > come from other places, too, but they do also come from here. > > Dave, please don't color "most of us" as "clueless". This sort of > self-flagellation feeds a tired stereotype that serves no one. -- Ian ...except that, in the general public outside of academia, it's damn accurate. I'm sorry if I offended you, in any case. There is a REASON that many people in other countries have the opinions they do about us. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From stevew at ka6s.com Wed Oct 10 22:34:27 2012 From: stevew at ka6s.com (Steven Wilson) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:34:27 -0700 Subject: Burroughs System/V Series emulator Message-ID: <50763E43.6050802@ka6s.com> -------------- Written by MikeSdm561 at torfree.net > > >Hi Steve, > >wrong Mike, but that's OK. > >What I have is the main nixie and indicator display and control console on >the front of the CPU cabinet, under the clock at the very right of the >picture below; I even still have a picture somewhere of me standing in front >of it compiling one of my programs. > >I think the SPO you're talking about is the teleprinter on >the desk to the left of it: > >http://www.smecc.org/burroughs-images/burrou4.jpg > >(The other) mike. I stand embarrassingly corrected TWICE! The "wrong" Mike part is explainable in that I get cctalk as a digest and messed up in the Copy & Paste. The second part was me reading "control console" and assuming you meant the teleprinter. So Sorry! I spent a lot of time with a B2700 learning Fortran. The Glendale, CA Board of Ed had a B2700 that was used by the Junior college for Cobol/Fortran classes back in the mid-70s. A buddy from High School got a job there as a Sys Admin so got to spend a fair amount of time around it. Eventually they upgraded to a B6800 system. Eventually I went to work in Goleta on the Small systems, then got transferred to Pasadena where the Medium systems were built. I was there as they were debugging the B2900. ;-) Very fond memories. Steve From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 10 22:36:33 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:36:33 -0300 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <50763C0D.6090706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ...except that, in the general public outside of academia, it's damn > accurate. I'm sorry if I offended you, in any case. There is a REASON > that many people in other countries have the opinions they do about us. It depends...I find north-americans to be very educated, polite and nice people. It is rare to find a USA-born guy (and from most parts of the world, BTW) who is rude and not helpful. Of course it may be demographics (how many americans I know outside the electronics-computers-nerdy-things world?) but it may be also something that happens everywhere - there are lots of good people and bad people, and they tend to walk in groups of bad, and groups of nice people... From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 11 01:32:50 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 02:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <50763C0D.6090706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210110632.CAA22170@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Of course it may be demographics (how many americans I know outside > the electronics-computers-nerdy-things world?) Yeah, I think there's a really heavy sampling bias there, for pretty much anyone, most certainly for anyone here. > but it may be also something that happens everywhere - there are lots > of good people and bad people, and they tend to walk in groups of > bad, and groups of nice people... There also may be some amount of what I might loosely term "chameleon effect". This arose on a list elsewhere in which somkeone observed (in an employment context) that if you treat employees as though you expect they're just waiting for an opportunity to screw you over and jump to your competitor - guess what, you'll find you're usually right. But if you treat employees as though they're reasonable and honest and principled and will do right by you - guess what, you'll find you're usually right. Someone else summarized it as "whether you think people suck or rock, you're right". So, there may be a bunch of basically neutral people who act like the crowd they happen to run with, thus reinforcing like-runs-with-like without needing to assume any particular bias. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 11 02:33:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things with current mailing addresses on them Message-ID: In my storage unit there keeps bubbling up stuff that author Jerry Pournelle was sent to review for Byte Magazine. When I sell them, instead of giving people the actual letters and such (which has Jerry's still current home address), I give them a censored photocopy. What should I do with these originals? I've been building a small file of them for the past few years. Should I just wait until Pournelle dies and then unload them on Ebay? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 11 02:39:19 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:39:19 -0600 Subject: Things with current mailing addresses on them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/11/2012 1:33 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > In my storage unit there keeps bubbling up stuff that author Jerry > Pournelle was sent to review for Byte Magazine. When I sell them, > instead of giving people the actual letters and such (which has Jerry's > still current home address), I give them a censored photocopy. What > should I do with these originals? I've been building a small file of > them for the past few years. Should I just wait until Pournelle dies > and then unload them on Ebay? No, you bump him off first ... > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 11 03:44:33 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/10/2012 08:27 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> 5. Mexico is a part of North America > > And the division of the New World into North and South America as separate > continents is not a universal convention. In particular, many > Spanish-speaking countries refer to the North and South American > sub-continents. Some parts of Mexico are counted as part of Middle America. Christian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 11 05:39:55 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: datasheetarchive.com weirdness Message-ID: Has anyone recently tried to download data sheets from datasheetarchive.com? I keep getting sent round and round in circles. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 06:02:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:02:08 -0300 Subject: datasheetarchive.com weirdness References: Message-ID: <12210F8B630D4CC194BF5AD3DCE369D8@tababook> No problems here, thanks ($deity)!!! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 7:39 AM Subject: datasheetarchive.com weirdness > > Has anyone recently tried to download data sheets from > datasheetarchive.com? I keep getting sent round and round in circles. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:01:57 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:01:57 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <5076C345.3090408@gmail.com> On 10/10/2012 12:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 7:16 AM, John Many Jars > wrote: >> On 10 October 2012 12:07, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> >>> I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building >>> an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with >>> software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. >> >> Maybe they want to restore a very large Windows 3.1 backup? > > Testing a Windows 8 floppy install? I'm liking these responses... that's the second time in this thread I've started typing a message and someone else has beaten me to it :-) I started over-thinking it and wondering if any installer has let you select a completely different source of media on-the-fly, though? (Normally it's "take the media out, put the next in the set back in the same drive") I suppose you could hook up 15,000 floppy drives to a box 'o tricks that made the whole lot look like a DVD drive with continuous data blocks, though, and then plug that into a PC... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:07:50 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:07:50 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <14F23EAC-7C3B-4C6E-B97F-AC430C00D734@gmail.com> <1349827298.18717.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010085809.F30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5076C4A6.7080201@gmail.com> On 10/10/2012 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, SPC wrote: >> But this request sounds (with all my initial respect to the sender) as >> a 'Nigerian letter', with the difference that it appears to be >> specially destinated to this list. He can request a donation for food, >> or for one hospital, or whatever he consider, without response. tries >> to arouse the curiosity of the members of this mailing list. > > there was no comma in 15 000 > > could it have been a typo, intended to be 15? Yes, wondered that myself - perhaps '15.000' given the space after the 15, as though a character maybe got dropped in some message conversion along the way (although it's strange to see someone writing three trailing zeros; two might be more common, albeit still unusual). > I could see a few thousand disks, NOT drives!, for a gimmick mailing, > souvenirs, etc. Indeed - the "new in box" requirement seems a little odd for drives, but perhaps not for disks if they were to be given away (and so needed to be blank) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:19:47 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:19:47 -0500 Subject: 'FRAID that Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010101138.R30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <20121010101138.R30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5076C773.8040402@gmail.com> On 10/10/2012 12:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> I think you're on the right track. My guess is that they're building >> an on-line software repository to archive the 15,000 diskettes with >> software they have, and want to do it using original-era hardware. > > They will need 14 bits of address select for them! Hmm, maybe they'll put them in a giant ring, each drive plugged into its own interface module, and drive (n+1) only becomes active when drive (n) has received a predetermined number of step signals. Or maybe we'll see a message in a couple of weeks asking for 7,500 new-in-box 486 PCs? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:28:48 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:28:48 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010095735.N30429@shell.lmi.net> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <20121010095735.N30429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5076C990.2000306@gmail.com> On 10/10/2012 12:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > One of the casinoes in Vegas makes a big deal out of having "ONE MILLION > DOLLARS!" in cash on display. 20G of floppies would be more fun! Particularly if you include the more colorful ones from the more recent years[1]. 15,000 would cover 175' of an 8' wall, 25 in each column. It'd make an interesting pixellated mural... [1] and the more modern ones were such garbage that nobody in their right mind would trust them for actual data storage! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:35:18 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:35:18 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5076CB16.6080100@gmail.com> On 10/10/2012 08:37 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > what?? Top posted because its sent from my stupid phone Doc. Get a non-stupid phone. Or better still, use a computer rather than a device intended for voice calls. (yes, it's Luddite Thursday) Jules From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 08:42:12 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:42:12 +0100 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076C345.3090408@gmail.com> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2521286D@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <5076C345.3090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11 October 2012 14:01, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I started over-thinking it and wondering if any installer has let you select > a completely different source of media on-the-fly, though? (Normally it's > "take the media out, put the next in the set back in the same drive") Classic MacOS was that smart, although some custom-written install programs weren't. But in general, classic MacOS said "please insert volume X" and then looked for a mounted volume by that name in any available drive. So if you had a twin-floppy Mac with a hard disk, you could install programs in, if not quite half the time, significantly less. Disk N in drive 1, disk N+1 in drive 2, then swap N for N+2 while it works on N+1... Some Amiga stuff was that smart as well, I think; both Amigas and Macs went through a period when twin-floppy machines were much more affordable - and much more usable - than hard-disk based ones, and either of them with twin floppies was far more usable than a PC or CP/M box with twin floppies, where dumb old text-mode apps looked for A: and B: and they were not interchangeable. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 09:00:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 07:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Ian King wrote: > I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. > > I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with > this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as > distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people > who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and > raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or > explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as > Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and > promulgating this jaundiced self-image. > > Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism > in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different > elsewhere. > Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut them up. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From doc at vaxen.net Thu Oct 11 09:08:14 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 09:08:14 -0500 Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121010185750.F40582@shell.lmi.net> References: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121010185750.F40582@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5076D2CE.9060501@vaxen.net> On 10/10/12 9:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > Chris, you are SO busted. This post absolutely puts the lie to your >> >"Google made me do it" quoting defense. > On Wed, 10 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> what?? Top posted because its sent from my stupid phone Doc. When did I >> ever blame google for anything?? > > That is true! > Chris has never blamed google for anything. > Now, Yahoo on the other hand, . . . > > On Tue, 18 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> why would I intentionally make posts difficult to read, being Im looking >> for responses to sometimes obscure queries?? Yahoo upgraded itself >> recently and no longer inserts the conventional>. Sorry I refuse to do >> that manually. Perhaps theres a setting I could alter. I saw an >> Australian bloke post as Ive been, even when it wasnt apparently >> necessary, on the usenet, and figured it was appropriate. It never >> seemed unreadable to me. > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> . . . >> how to post" is a response to the bickering that seems to accompany >> nearly everything I do (or *don't do*). I changed the setting, and you >> saw the results (EVERYTHING followed arrows), so I had to change it >> back. There's nothing I can do at this point, except contact Yahoo >> maybe. Yeah, that. Thanks, Fred! Doc From spedraja at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 01:38:16 2012 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:38:16 +0200 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 Message-ID: Hello. Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and instructive (I'm using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). Now I should like to go one step beyond. I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the rights of this software.. -- Gracias | Regards Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations -- Sergio Pedraja twitter: @sergio_pedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo From amh at POBOX.COM Thu Oct 11 07:31:18 2012 From: amh at POBOX.COM (Andrew Hoerter) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:31:18 -0400 Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:58 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and Change"? > I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was wondering if I > should pass it on or archive it myself. You might consider sending these to Jason Scott, the fellow who runs textfiles.com; he's done some work in the area of preserving/digitizing computer history related zines (see: ). -Andy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 10:35:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:35:29 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2012 10:00 AM, geneb wrote: >> I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. >> >> I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with >> this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as >> distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people >> who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and >> raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or >> explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as >> Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and >> promulgating this jaundiced self-image. >> >> Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism >> in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different >> elsewhere. >> > Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and > the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to > shut them up. :) Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) We live in a society defined by Snookie and Wal*Mart. *barf* -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 11 10:47:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:47:47 -0700 Subject: datasheetarchive.com weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5076EA23.6020908@sydex.com> On 10/11/2012 03:39 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Has anyone recently tried to download data sheets from > datasheetarchive.com? I keep getting sent round and round in circles. It will run you in circles if you attempt to open a datasheet in a separate tab or window. That's the only problem I've encountered that resembles your issue. Using Firefox on Xubuntu. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 10:54:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2012 10:00 AM, geneb wrote: >>> I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. >>> >>> I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with >>> this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as >>> distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people >>> who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and >>> raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or >>> explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as >>> Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and >>> promulgating this jaundiced self-image. >>> >>> Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism >>> in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different >>> elsewhere. >>> >> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and >> the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to >> shut them up. :) > > Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around > graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) We live in a society defined by > Snookie and Wal*Mart. *barf* > Then there's that whole train wreck they call "honey boo boo" or some such. I think that show came about when someone told a producer that there was NO WAY they could make a show even dumber than Jersey Shore. Hollywood of course went, "Challenge accepted". I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and not pawn shops. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Oct 11 10:56:39 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:56:39 -0400 Subject: datasheetarchive.com weirdness In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60DABF3E-58B4-4FBA-82D2-4A02C5EDC17F@me.com> You have to pay a lot of attention to where you click or that will happen. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-11, at 6:39 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > Has anyone recently tried to download data sheets from datasheetarchive.com? I keep getting sent round and round in circles. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 11 10:58:24 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Western" culture [Re: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help..] In-Reply-To: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210111558.LAA24007@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> [...] people who use "Western" [...] as a swear word, [...] >> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us >> and the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy >> required to shut them up. :) > Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around > graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) Well, yes, but the people who do presumably are aware of _that_. I actually think that part of the problem is that "Western" society _is_ rather stupid in some important respects. In particular, the American Experiment is only some two or three centuries old. Most of the rest of the world has had many centuries, millennia for some parts of it, to learn how to live sustainably, at least for local values of "sustainably" (and the difference between local and global there is a separate issue). North America is still living its startup transient, learning through hard experience what (most of) the rest of the world has learned so long ago the learning has been forgotten and the lessons have become an ingrained way of life. "What's the difference between a European and a North American?" "The European thinks 100 miles is a long distance; the North American thinks 100 years is a long time." Of course, "Western" != "North American". But there are strong tendencies that way, and the worst of "Western" culture and society tend to be the pieces that come from North America. I also note - and speculate that it's relevant - that the invasion (usually miscalled "discovery") of the Americas, the point at which the American Experiment started, was also the filling up of the last available habitable land on the planet, at least from the point of view of the now-dominant Western European culture. Since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution (and arguably before), they've been on an exponential growth spurt, and are starting to painfully run into the resource limits that guarantee that curve can't continue forever. The resulting crowding, after well over a human lifetime of getting used to always having somewhere new to expand into, is causing...friction. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 11:02:19 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:02:19 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11 October 2012 16:54, geneb wrote: >> > Then there's that whole train wreck they call "honey boo boo" or some such. I have never seen the program but I've seen trailers for it. They called to mind Stewie Griffin's line on child beauty pageants (from /Family Guy/): "A first-class ticket to a semen-covered death in a basement." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 11 11:02:29 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:02:29 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 11 October 2012 16:54, geneb wrote: > Then there's that whole train wreck they call "honey boo boo" or some such. > I think that show came about when someone told a producer that there was NO > WAY they could make a show even dumber than Jersey Shore. Hollywood of > course went, "Challenge accepted". I keep hearing about this "Honey Boo Boo" thing. Just the title makes me feel sick. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 11:34:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:34:50 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2012 11:54 AM, geneb wrote: >> Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around >> graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) We live in a society defined by >> Snookie and Wal*Mart. *barf* >> > Then there's that whole train wreck they call "honey boo boo" or some > such. I think that show came about when someone told a producer that > there was NO WAY they could make a show even dumber than Jersey Shore. > Hollywood of course went, "Challenge accepted". This goes from "barf" to "projectile vomit". > I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and > not pawn shops. I've not had TV reception in my home for over a decade, and crap like this is why. I download anything I want to watch. (even then, who has time for that stuff?!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 11:42:46 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:42:46 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Paid for downloads, or the kind that the MPAA and RIAA whine, moand and complain about? Cheers, Christian On 11 October 2012 12:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2012 11:54 AM, geneb wrote: >>> Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around >>> graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) We live in a society defined by >>> Snookie and Wal*Mart. *barf* >>> >> Then there's that whole train wreck they call "honey boo boo" or some >> such. I think that show came about when someone told a producer that >> there was NO WAY they could make a show even dumber than Jersey Shore. >> Hollywood of course went, "Challenge accepted". > > This goes from "barf" to "projectile vomit". > >> I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and >> not pawn shops. > > I've not had TV reception in my home for over a decade, and crap like > this is why. I download anything I want to watch. (even then, who has > time for that stuff?!) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 11 12:04:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:04:19 -0700 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> On 10/11/2012 08:54 AM, geneb wrote: > I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and > not pawn shops. I miss "Sunrise Semester" (Does that date me?). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:09:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Things with current mailing addresses on them In-Reply-To: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> > > In my storage unit there keeps bubbling up stuff that author Jerry > > Pournelle was sent to review for Byte Magazine. When I sell them, > > instead of giving people the actual letters and such (which has Jerry's > > still current home address), I give them a censored photocopy. What > > should I do with these originals? I've been building a small file of > > them for the past few years. Should I just wait until Pournelle dies > > and then unload them on Ebay? > No, you bump him off first ... No, you contact him (you have his address) and send them to him. Or maybe he would BUY them? Or is that blackmail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:17:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121011101547.T63525@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I miss "Sunrise Semester" (Does that date me?). I miss it. I remember their "Statistics" course. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:22:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <201210110632.CAA22170@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50763C0D.6090706@neurotica.com> <201210110632.CAA22170@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121011102126.O63525@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > There also may be some amount of what I might loosely term "chameleon > effect". > . . . > Someone else summarized it as "whether you think people suck or rock, > you're right". That's mor of a "self-fulfilling prophecy". > So, there may be a bunch of basically neutral people who act like the > crowd they happen to run with, THAT is a "chameleon effect" From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:31:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> > I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. There do exist some very visible DUMB and/or ignorant people. I was 12 years old before I ever even heard of "The line of Demarcation" (Pope Alexander, in 1494, split the new continents between Spain and Portugal) There are apparently many adults who've never heard of it, and aren't aware of the existence of Portugese! Isn't Brazil the capital of great boob jobs? We are hardly a representative sample of the full population. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 11 12:38:40 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:38:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:58 AM, David Griffith wrote: > >> Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and >> Change"? I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was >> wondering if I should pass it on or archive it myself. > > You might consider sending these to Jason Scott, the fellow who runs > textfiles.com; he's done some work in the area of preserving/digitizing > computer history related zines (see: ). I'm not sure if Jason is even active these days. I sent him some stuff several months ago that I recovered from old disks and never heard back from him. I tried to follow up with him later and still never heard back. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:54:49 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2012 08:54 AM, geneb wrote: > >> I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and >> not pawn shops. > > I miss "Sunrise Semester" (Does that date me?). > Woah. I haven't seen that since I was a child. Thanks for the memory Chuck. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 12:59:51 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121011105503.T63525@shell.lmi.net> "I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret that I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people." - Dan Quayle (Vice President of USA) However, the attribution is refuted. http://www.snopes.com/quotes/quayle.asp Maybe the fact that it did need refutation is enough of an example of the existence of stupidity in our culture. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 11 13:04:16 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 19:04:16 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076FC13.2040703@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11 October 2012 18:54, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 10/11/2012 08:54 AM, geneb wrote: >> >>> I long for the days when The History Channel had shows about history and >>> not pawn shops. >> >> >> I miss "Sunrise Semester" (Does that date me?). >> > Woah. I haven't seen that since I was a child. Thanks for the memory Chuck. > :) > We've got one here. It should be called The Hitler Channel.... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 13:08:13 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Andrew Hoerter wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:58 AM, David Griffith >> wrote: >> >>> Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and >>> Change"? I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was wondering >>> if I should pass it on or archive it myself. >> >> You might consider sending these to Jason Scott, the fellow who runs >> textfiles.com; he's done some work in the area of preserving/digitizing >> computer history related zines (see: ). > > I'm not sure if Jason is even active these days. I sent him some stuff > several months ago that I recovered from old disks and never heard back from > him. I tried to follow up with him later and still never heard back. > He's busier than a one armed paper hanger. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 11 13:22:30 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:22:30 -0400 Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121011182230.GB27892@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great geneb once stated: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > >On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Andrew Hoerter wrote: > >>On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 2:58 AM, David Griffith > >>wrote: > >> > >>>Does anyone remember a zine from the early 1990s called "8 Bit and > >>>Change"? I found several issues of it in my heap-o-stuff and was > >>>wondering if I should pass it on or archive it myself. > >> > >>You might consider sending these to Jason Scott, the fellow who runs > >>textfiles.com; he's done some work in the area of preserving/digitizing > >>computer history related zines (see: ). > > > >I'm not sure if Jason is even active these days. I sent him some stuff > >several months ago that I recovered from old disks and never heard back > >from him. I tried to follow up with him later and still never heard back. > > > He's busier than a one armed paper hanger. He's currently editing one documentary, and in the process of filming three more. And that's on top of his archiving mission. -spc From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 11 13:32:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210111832.OAA24567@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There do exist some very visible DUMB and/or ignorant people. One of the more severe examples I've heard was (supposedly) some politician in the US South, who (is supposed to have) said, speaking of English as a language for immigrants to learn, that "if it was good enough for Our Lord Jesus Christ, it's good enough for them". There just aren't facepalms enough in the world.... > Isn't Brazil the capital of great boob jobs? And wax jobs! (*ouch*...those hurt even to think about....) > We are hardly a representative sample of the full population. _So_ true. (But, lest we forget, in lots of other ways than this.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 11 13:37:45 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:37:45 -0700 Subject: Things with current mailing addresses on them In-Reply-To: <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> I looked at his web site. Almost everything I found in 5 minutes of searching that site (which is all I wanted to take) said that emails would be published. David specifically wants a private off line discussion, not one that is designed to go public, as that web site is set up to do. the Chaos Manor site makes Jerry money, or assume it is intended to. If you pay you see current discussions. If you don't you do not. Anything emailed to him as in the past is assumed to be part of a question or discussion if it goes that direction. I recall that he keeps the computing discussions and so forth fairly separate from the other activities he has, so may not have a private email address there. I did find an address that doesn't go into Chaos manner and sent it to David offline. Jim On 10/11/2012 10:09 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > No, you contact him (you have his address) and send them to him. > Or maybe he would BUY them? Or is that blackmail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 13:52:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:52:59 -0300 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1BC5D3F96DBC49F8A45CA80045BD963C@tababook> > Paid for downloads, or the kind that the MPAA and RIAA whine, moand > and complain about? He uses netflix :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 13:54:03 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:54:03 -0300 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > There are apparently many adults who've never heard of it, and aren't > aware of the existence of Portugese! Isn't Brazil the capital of great > boob jobs? No, this is Florida :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 13:55:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:55:24 -0300 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> <201210111832.OAA24567@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1751BA21939544D3ADDE071D1F9D3652@tababook> > And wax jobs! (*ouch*...those hurt even to think about....) These are GREAT! :oD From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 11 14:05:08 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:05:08 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 07:00:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: geneb > > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Ian King wrote: > >> I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. >> > Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and > the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut > them up. :) > > g. ----- Reply ----- Well, if "loudest" = 'number of posts per day/week not related to CCs' you may have a point... ;-) From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 11 14:04:27 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:04:27 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: Message-ID: <08A95A135E104BD6B0D8C84F2D8E3ADB@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:25:01 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > > On 10/10/2012 11:06 PM, Ian King wrote: >> >> Dave, please don't color "most of us" as "clueless". This sort of >> self-flagellation feeds a tired stereotype that serves no one. -- Ian > > > ...except that, in the general public outside of academia, it's damn > accurate. I'm sorry if I offended you, in any case. There is a REASON > that many people in other countries have the opinions they do about us. > > -Dave -----Reply -------- Lots of folks like you also believe that there are REASONS why people have the opinions they do about Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, people with black skins or blond hair, etc. etc... Precious irony... ;-) m From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 14:25:18 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> There are apparently many adults who've never heard of it, and aren't >> aware of the existence of Portugese! Isn't Brazil the capital of great >> boob jobs? > > No, this is Florida :) > That's an easy mistake to make Florida is simply the boob capital, not the boob JOB capital. (There are very good and specific reasons why Florida is the only state with its very own tag on Fark) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 11 14:26:35 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1751BA21939544D3ADDE071D1F9D3652@tababook> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <20121011102648.Y63525@shell.lmi.net> <201210111832.OAA24567@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1751BA21939544D3ADDE071D1F9D3652@tababook> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> And wax jobs! (*ouch*...those hurt even to think about....) > > These are GREAT! :oD I think that depends on whether you're giving, getting or receiving benefit from. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 15:07:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:07:33 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Little rich for my blood but, not something you see every day on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 From jon at jonworld.com Thu Oct 11 15:15:27 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:15:27 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:07 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Little rich for my blood but, not something you see every day on ebay > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 Wow! And he's local to me! I wonder who he got it from? I wonder what else he has. Hmmmm. -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 11 15:57:30 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 13:57:30 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> The background of the photos is interesting, looks like custom car shop. I noted it has spark plug wires on top, and was next to a carburetor cleaner. I assume it has had a grease job. Is there any more to the system but this main bay of hardware? Jim On 10/11/2012 1:15 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> > >> >http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 > Wow! And he's local to me! I wonder who he got it from? I wonder what > else he has. Hmmmm. From jon at jonworld.com Thu Oct 11 16:03:35 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:03:35 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 4:57 PM, jim s wrote: > The background of the photos is interesting, looks like custom car shop. I > noted it has spark plug wires on top, and > was next to a carburetor cleaner. I assume it has had a grease job. Is > there any more to the system but this main > bay of hardware? >From his e-bay user name, location near Indy, and his other auctions it looks like he deals in jet engines and has this in a hangar by the international airport. I sent him an e-mail to see what other computer hardware he may have. I'll keep you posted. From jon at jonworld.com Thu Oct 11 16:04:48 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:04:48 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 5:03 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > From his e-bay user name, location near Indy, and his other auctions > it looks like he deals in jet engines and has this in a hangar by the > international airport. I sent him an e-mail to see what other computer > hardware he may have. I'll keep you posted. Yes, he also has a vintage Indy race car, Model A Ford, and maybe some kind of Le Mans car in shrinkwrap in that setup, too. Now I really want to go visit :) -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 16:05:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:05:12 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <507732BA.4010403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50773488.1010200@gmail.com> On 10/11/2012 1:57 PM, jim s wrote: > The background of the photos is interesting, looks like custom car > shop. I noted it has spark plug wires on top, and > was next to a carburetor cleaner. I assume it has had a grease job. > Is there any more to the system but this main > bay of hardware? > > Jim I see vintage race cars. Probably used for engineering simulations once upon a time maybe ? All the big race teams usually have super computer level stuff in their engineering departments. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Oct 11 16:10:22 2012 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:10:22 -0500 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:34:50PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've not had TV reception in my home for over a decade, and crap like > this is why. I download anything I want to watch. (even then, who has > time for that stuff?!) It's about the same at my place. I dropped cable years ago and mostly watch old stuff on DVD. With stations cutting more and more show content to make more room for commercials, and adding "screen graffiti" around the edges of the screen while shows are airing I'd rather spend my money on expanding my DVD collection than spend it on cable. I'm a bit of a dog movie/show nut. Well, a dog nut in general actually. Once upon a time I had thirteen dogs. I'm down to four at the moment. I'm currently watching the early Rin Tin Tin features/serials. I just finished his surviving silent stuff and started on the sound era. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://Lassie.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 11 16:48:44 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:48:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 8 bits and change In-Reply-To: <20121011182230.GB27892@brevard.conman.org> References: <20121011182230.GB27892@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great geneb once stated: >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Andrew Hoerter wrote: >>> >>>> You might consider sending these to Jason Scott, the fellow who runs >>>> textfiles.com; he's done some work in the area of >>>> preserving/digitizing computer history related zines (see: >>>> ). >>> >>> I'm not sure if Jason is even active these days. I sent him some stuff >>> several months ago that I recovered from old disks and never heard >>> back from him. I tried to follow up with him later and still never >>> heard back. >> >> He's busier than a one armed paper hanger. > > He's currently editing one documentary, and in the process of filming > three more. And that's on top of his archiving mission. I suppose that would explain things. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Oct 11 17:14:27 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:14:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <08A95A135E104BD6B0D8C84F2D8E3ADB@vl420mt> References: <08A95A135E104BD6B0D8C84F2D8E3ADB@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 23:25:01 -0400 >> From: Dave McGuire >> >> On 10/10/2012 11:06 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> >>> Dave, please don't color "most of us" as "clueless". This sort of >>> self-flagellation feeds a tired stereotype that serves no one. -- Ian >> >> >> ...except that, in the general public outside of academia, it's damn >> accurate. I'm sorry if I offended you, in any case. There is a REASON >> that many people in other countries have the opinions they do about us. >> >> -Dave > -----Reply -------- > > Lots of folks like you also believe that there are REASONS why people have > the opinions they do about Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, people with black skins > or blond hair, etc. etc... > > Precious irony... ;-) That was totally uncalled for. Dave was describing a sterotype about a group OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER, you are comparing him to racists who blame all the worlds problems on a group of OUTSIDERS. This is completely different. I think you need to apologise. Alexey From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 11 17:34:54 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 18:34:54 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <5077498E.2070200@att.net> explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what do you mean by that? s2 On 10/11/2012 5:10 PM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 12:34:50PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> I've not had TV reception in my home for over a decade, and crap like >> this is why. I download anything I want to watch. (even then, who has >> time for that stuff?!) >> > It's about the same at my place. I dropped cable years ago and mostly watch > old stuff on DVD. With stations cutting more and more show content to make > more room for commercials, and adding "screen graffiti" around the edges of > the screen while shows are airing I'd rather spend my money on expanding my > DVD collection than spend it on cable. > > I'm a bit of a dog movie/show nut. Well, a dog nut in general actually. > Once upon a time I had thirteen dogs. I'm down to four at the moment. > > I'm currently watching the early Rin Tin Tin features/serials. I just > finished his surviving silent stuff and started on the sound era. > > > From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 17:36:40 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1349995000.56427.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Dave, who in blazes said anything about "Mexicans", or "skin color"??? I would expect this from some pablum puking liberal intending to create schisms and divisiveness where none existed. But not from you. Oh well, live and learn. I've known Brazilian people, face to face. Was even invited to stay at their home if I ever visited (I expressed my interest in it). I've had to be corrected about Brazilian language by Alexandre in the past, and went ahead an made a joke of it. Multiple times. I hardly understand the response. Or the apologies. We know there are ignorant hillbillies in the US. I might imagine even Brazil has their own variety. Most countries would. Have you been to Yugoslavia? They're white (mostly). Have you nearly gotten the **** kicked out of you by someone w/an AK47 slung over their shoulder? Were you nearly drowned on the beach when 3 of the locals endeavored to do so? Are Americans the only people who exhibit ignorance??? Give me a break. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire On 10/10/2012 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>? QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! >> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. > >? ? Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non > es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) ? In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, the biggest in the world, and the most important in the world.? Most people here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is "Mexican", they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". ? I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize that: ? 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil ? 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA ? 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA ? 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso ? 5. Mexico is a part of North America ? It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-(? I'm a person who failed nearly every course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and even *I* know these things! ? I'm apologize for the way most of us are.? We are just clueless, and we mean no disrespect. (well, most of us don't) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 17:41:03 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1349995263.95504.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 10/10/2012 08:27 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >? ? 5. Mexico is a part of North America And the division of the New World into North and South America as separate continents is not a universal convention.? In particular, many Spanish-speaking countries refer to the North and South American sub-continents. --Chuck C: You're forgetting about central America. I actually thought that Mexico was part of it, but I may stand to be corrected. People from say Guatemala see themselves as central Americans. If you talk about Brazil or Argentina say, they'll tell you "that's south America". From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 17:46:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5077498E.2070200@att.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> Message-ID: <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what > do you mean by that? 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes even have sound with the animated ads! Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 17:47:29 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076CB16.6080100@gmail.com> References: <1349919423.50955.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5076CB16.6080100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1349995649.71144.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Jules Richardson On 10/10/2012 08:37 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > what?? Top posted because its sent from my stupid phone Doc. Get a non-stupid phone. Or better still, use a computer rather than a device intended for voice calls. (yes, it's Luddite Thursday) Jules C: NO! Not when I'm committed to paying nearly 100$ a month for 2 years. Maybe eventually, not now. ?It's not the point though. I can't NOT top post from my phone. I'm not busted for anything. ?And incidentally the QX-10 shipped out. I may have Valdocs images, and MS-DOS for the Titan 8088 board. I'll have to check. Not much else. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 17:49:06 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut them up. :) g. C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 17:59:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 18:59:06 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349995000.56427.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <1349995000.56427.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50774F3A.5030305@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2012 06:36 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Dave, who in blazes said anything about "Mexicans", or "skin color"??? I would expect this from some pablum puking liberal intending to create schisms and divisiveness where none existed. But not from you. > > > Oh well, live and learn. Oh good heavens. Did you even READ my email? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 11 18:19:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:19:03 -0700 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349995263.95504.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> <5075B1EB.7010004@sydex.com> <1349995263.95504.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507753E7.8050106@sydex.com> On 10/11/2012 03:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: You're forgetting about central America. I actually thought that > Mexico was part of it, but I may stand to be corrected. People from > say Guatemala see themselves as central Americans. If you talk about > Brazil or Argentina say, they'll tell you "that's south America". Well, it depends upon your viewpoint. Consider the IOC, for instance. From WikiP: "Prior to 1951, the official handbook stated that each color corresponded to a particular continent: blue for Europe, yellow for Asia, black for Africa, green for Australia and Oceania and red for America (North and South considered as a single continent)" And many Spanish-speaking countries consider the North and South sub-continents to be part of the larger single American continent, in much the same way, for example that India lies on a subcontinent of Asia. Central America is loosely thought of as the skinny isthmus connecting the two sub-continents. Again, from WikiP: "Physiographically, Central America is the tapering isthmus of southern North America, with unique and varied features extending from the north-western borders of Belize and Guatemala southeastward to the Isthmus of Panama where it connects to the Colombian Pacific Lowlands in northwestern South America. Alternatively, some physiographists locate its northern border at some point in the Isthmus of Tehuantepec, Mexico." Geologically, most of Central America, however it's defined, lies on the Caribbean Plate, which is another distinguishing characteristic, as it's bordered on the north and south by the North American plate and the South American plate respectively. Again, it all depends upon your viewpoint. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 11 18:55:52 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 19:55:52 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50775C88.7070200@att.net> duh understand. I didn't make the connection! back to sleep now s2 On 10/11/2012 6:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > >> explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what >> do you mean by that? >> > 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right > corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an > announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes > even have sound with the animated ads! > > Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. > > > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 11 19:07:02 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..]] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201210120007.UAA26148@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [1] "Middle Indic" [...] the Indo-Aryan[2] languages of [...] I am perpetually amazed by the variety of knowledge exhibited by people here. This is but one example, one example I find fascinating both in its presence here and in the knowledge itself. > [2] This is a linguistic classification, prior to the racialist > adoption of the word "Aryan" to mean something entirely > different. I'm reminded indirectly of the remark, based on the extent to which the peoples of what's now called the Middle East were mixed some three to four thousand years ago, that one man's Mede is another man's Persian. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Oct 11 19:19:21 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:19:21 -0400 Subject: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..]] In-Reply-To: <201210120007.UAA26148@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201210120007.UAA26148@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <61E138EB-D35F-4CB1-B78D-46F359441082@me.com> On 2012-10-11, at 8:07 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [1] "Middle Indic" [...] the Indo-Aryan[2] languages of [...] > > I am perpetually amazed by the variety of knowledge exhibited by people > here. This is but one example, one example I find fascinating both in > its presence here and in the knowledge itself. > I was surprised myself. I'm taking classics, so this semester I'm tackling Latin. Did Ancient Greek last year. One thing about it, the classes are great! One class I'm taking right now is ancient magic. Today's lecture was on techniques for evoking ghosts, previous lecture was on types of ancient ghosts. I'm someone who grew up on Indiana Jones, and greatly enjoyed The Mummy. So to read ancient spells and that sort of thing is a real thrill. IMO, classics majors get to have the most fun. Last fall I even had the chance to participate in a dig at Point Pelee. I spent the day sifting dirt from a sight that was a thousand years old, and finding lots of potsherds. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 11 19:23:32 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:23:32 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50776304.7080907@telegraphics.com.au> On 11/10/12 11:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/11/2012 10:00 AM, geneb wrote: >>> I get really tired of such meaningless generalizations. >>> >>> I'm currently in a graduate-level anthropology class where I deal with >>> this all the time: people who use "Western" (as in Western culture, as >>> distinct from pretty much any indigenous culture) as a swear word, people >>> who do not identify themselves as "Western" (despite having been born and >>> raised in the same country as I was) either implicitly assuming or >>> explicitly claiming that 99.9% of us are dumb as rocks and hateful as >>> Hitler... and people who DO identify as US citizens buying into and >>> promulgating this jaundiced self-image. >>> >>> Yes, there's ignorance, bigotry and xenophobia masquerading as patriotism >>> in this country. Those things exist elsewhere, it just looks different >>> elsewhere. >>> >> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and >> the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to >> shut them up. :) > > Very true. And the dumbest of us very rarely hangs around > graduate-level anthropology classes. ;) We live in a society defined by > Snookie and Wal*Mart. *barf* And it's all the way down from there... --T > > -Dave > From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 19:26:44 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:26:44 +0000 Subject: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..]] In-Reply-To: <61E138EB-D35F-4CB1-B78D-46F359441082@me.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201210120007.UAA26148@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <61E138EB-D35F-4CB1-B78D-46F359441082@me.com> Message-ID: <2114986567-1350001606-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899706160-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> An entire class on ancient magic? I presume its going over multiple languages and beliefs then right? (Egyptian book of the dead, etc) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Anderson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:19:21 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..]] On 2012-10-11, at 8:07 PM, Mouse wrote: >> [1] "Middle Indic" [...] the Indo-Aryan[2] languages of [...] > > I am perpetually amazed by the variety of knowledge exhibited by people > here. This is but one example, one example I find fascinating both in > its presence here and in the knowledge itself. > I was surprised myself. I'm taking classics, so this semester I'm tackling Latin. Did Ancient Greek last year. One thing about it, the classes are great! One class I'm taking right now is ancient magic. Today's lecture was on techniques for evoking ghosts, previous lecture was on types of ancient ghosts. I'm someone who grew up on Indiana Jones, and greatly enjoyed The Mummy. So to read ancient spells and that sort of thing is a real thrill. IMO, classics majors get to have the most fun. Last fall I even had the chance to participate in a dig at Point Pelee. I spent the day sifting dirt from a sight that was a thousand years old, and finding lots of potsherds. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 11 19:27:59 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 17:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > Little rich for my blood but, not something you see every day on ebay > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 What is that at the bottom of the key and switch compartment? Touch-up paint? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Oct 11 20:07:09 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:07:09 -0400 Subject: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a special help..]] In-Reply-To: <2114986567-1350001606-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899706160-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB2598E93@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201210120007.UAA26148@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <61E138EB-D35F-4CB1-B78D-46F359441082@me.com> <2114986567-1350001606-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1899706160-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <2D05DFC6-2E1C-4F30-8061-0CAC2F27199A@me.com> It's chiefly focused on Roman and Greek. This is because that is where most of our sources come from. We have been discussing the influence of Egyptian and Persian tradition, and how the greeks adopted much of it and began to systematize and secularise it. I'm not sure if we're going to go deeper into the Egyptian end of things or not, but there's a lot to cover just in Greece and Rome. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-10-11, at 8:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > An entire class on ancient magic? I presume its going over multiple languages and beliefs then right? (Egyptian book of the dead, etc) > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Anderson > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:19:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Ancient history [Re: Missing footnotes [was RE: Our Museum Need a > special help..]] > > On 2012-10-11, at 8:07 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> [1] "Middle Indic" [...] the Indo-Aryan[2] languages of [...] >> >> I am perpetually amazed by the variety of knowledge exhibited by people >> here. This is but one example, one example I find fascinating both in >> its presence here and in the knowledge itself. > > I was surprised myself. I'm taking classics, so this semester I'm tackling Latin. Did Ancient Greek last year. One thing about it, the classes are great! One class I'm taking right now is ancient magic. Today's lecture was on techniques for evoking ghosts, previous lecture was on types of ancient ghosts. > > I'm someone who grew up on Indiana Jones, and greatly enjoyed The Mummy. So to read ancient spells and that sort of thing is a real thrill. IMO, classics majors get to have the most fun. Last fall I even had the chance to participate in a dig at Point Pelee. I spent the day sifting dirt from a sight that was a thousand years old, and finding lots of potsherds. > > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Oct 11 21:15:36 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:15:36 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:14 PM Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 24 > Message: 29 > Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:14:27 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alexey Toptygin >> Lots of folks like you also believe that there are REASONS why people >> have >> the opinions they do about Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, people with black >> skins >> or blond hair, etc. etc... >> >> Precious irony... ;-) > > That was totally uncalled for. Dave was describing a sterotype about a > group OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER, you are comparing him to racists who blame > all the worlds problems on a group of OUTSIDERS. This is completely > different. I think you need to apologise. > > Alexey ----- Reply: As a matter of fact I see a fair bit of that on this list as well, by the same group of regulars: stereotypical judgement and blaming of OUTSIDERS, i.e. ignorant 'lusers' who don't know or care how their computers work, the intricacies of TCP/IP or their operating system, who top post, use M$ software, etc. etc., and are perhaps busy running businesses, performing brain operations, whatever, instead... And Dave is of course implying that he's NOT a member of the group he's disparaging; after all, HE knows that they speak Portuguese in Brazil! As a matter of fact he is in fact echoing and defending the stereotypical view of "people in other countries," i.e. OUTSIDERS... (and thus perhaps even offending some of "them" ;-) So, it's OK to insult and offend members of a certain group with this sort of stereotypical judgement as long as you yourself are a member of that group (albeit presumably one of the exceptions who doesn't fit the stereotype...)? As long as I'm an African-American myself it's OK for me to say "yeah, we really are inferior somehow, and there's a REASON why folks believe that about us"? In that case I do apologize; I naively thought that derogatory stereotypes were sort of inappropriate regardless of the source. m BTW, I have a Brazilian girlfriend, so I not only know that one speaks Portuguese there but I'm also intimately acquainted with the Brazilian wax look... From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 22:00:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:00:00 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507787B0.1060201@neurotica.com> On 10/11/2012 10:15 PM, MikeS wrote: >> That was totally uncalled for. Dave was describing a sterotype about a >> group OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER, you are comparing him to racists who blame >> all the worlds problems on a group of OUTSIDERS. This is completely >> different. I think you need to apologise. >> >> Alexey > > ----- Reply: > > As a matter of fact I see a fair bit of that on this list as well, by the > same group of regulars: stereotypical judgement and blaming of OUTSIDERS, > i.e. ignorant 'lusers' who don't know or care how their computers work, the > intricacies of TCP/IP or their operating system, who top post, use M$ > software, etc. etc., and are perhaps busy running businesses, performing > brain operations, whatever, instead... > > And Dave is of course implying that he's NOT a member of the group he's > disparaging; after all, HE knows that they speak Portuguese in Brazil! > > As a matter of fact he is in fact echoing and defending the stereotypical > view of "people in other countries," i.e. OUTSIDERS... (and thus perhaps > even offending some of "them" ;-) Alexey is right, I was also speaking of myself. I USED TO BE a member of that group, and to an extent I still am...but less so than I used to be. I was mortified when it finally dawned on me just how clueless I was, and it wasn't all that long ago. Say about six years...when I started dating Columbian woman. I spent about two years with her. That experience really humbled me, and I was deeply embarrassed by what I didn't know. I made it a point to learn all I could from her and her friends. It was an eye-opening experience. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 11 22:07:36 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:07:36 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50778978.7020407@jwsss.com> On 10/11/2012 5:27 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 >> > > What is that at the bottom of the key and switch compartment? Touch-up > paint? After looking at the other photos of the internals, I don't think that skid is up to the task. Since they cracked one of the hatches for illustration, makes me wonder what sort of juice is inside to cool it with. If freon is it still legal? As to whether it is touchup paint, I would also suspect it might be some sort of treatment for the coolant, but not sure what that is. Certainly possible it is what you say. that is a lot of aluminum though a wonder a crappy skid like that hasn't given out. From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 22:48:51 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 20:48:51 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> On 10/11/2012 5:27 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > >> Little rich for my blood but, not something you see every day on ebay >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 >> > > What is that at the bottom of the key and switch compartment? Touch-up > paint? > Given it being a custom car shop I would bet every inch of metal was repainted and you are probably right about what that is. It is what they do. I kinda doubt Cray put bottles of paint anywhere inside their machines. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 11 22:59:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:59:43 -0600 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> mc68010 wrote: > I kinda doubt Cray put bottles of paint anywhere inside their machines. I wouldn't bet any real money on it. On earlier machines, but perhaps not something as recent as a T9x, they would sell you the computer painted any color you wanted, so I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised if there was somewhere in one of the cabinets where some spare paint was stored for field touch-up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 11 23:25:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50778978.7020407@jwsss.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50778978.7020407@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121011212438.J78683@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > As to whether it is touchup paint, before buying a Cray, rap on each of the panels to check for Bondo? From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 23:29:27 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:29:27 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> On 10/11/2012 8:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > mc68010 wrote: >> I kinda doubt Cray put bottles of paint anywhere inside their machines. > > I wouldn't bet any real money on it. On earlier machines, but perhaps > not something as recent as a T9x, they would sell you the computer > painted any color you wanted, so I wouldn't have been the least bit > surprised if there was somewhere in one of the cabinets where some > spare paint was stored for field touch-up. > I am sure there was in the tech's tool box. The guy that came with the support contract. If that's original touch up paint I bet some someone at Cray stuck it there to make his job easier. It looks odd though. Everything seems to shiny too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it had all been repainted. Sticking a bottle of touch up paint in cars is what the custom cars usually do. Anyone else seen Cray touch up paint ? Seems like we would have seen a bottle on ebay by now. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 23:31:43 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:31:43 -0500 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <20121011212438.J78683@shell.lmi.net> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50778978.7020407@jwsss.com> <20121011212438.J78683@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: lol On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > > As to whether it is touchup paint, > > before buying a Cray, rap on each of the panels to check for Bondo? > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 12 00:22:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:22:52 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> On 10/11/2012 09:29 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I am sure there was in the tech's tool box. The guy that came with the > support contract. If that's original touch up paint I bet some someone > at Cray stuck it there to make his job easier. It looks odd though. > Everything seems to shiny too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it had > all been repainted. Sticking a bottle of touch up paint in cars is what > the custom cars usually do. Anyone else seen Cray touch up paint ? Seems > like we would have seen a bottle on ebay by now. My wife was looking over my shoulder when I brought the eBay listing for the T94 up. She said "only $12K for that?" I replied that if what one was after was a running T94, that $12K was merely the tip of the iceberg. Consider the power supplies, cooling, peripherals and the probability that the darned thing doesn't work (where does one find parts, even for a 90's era Cray), one could plunk down a fair amount of cash to get this piece of iron running. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 12 00:40:53 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:40:53 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 1:22 AM Subject: Re: Ebay Cray T94 > Consider the power supplies, cooling, peripherals and the probability that > the darned thing doesn't work (where does one find parts, even for a 90's > era Cray), one could plunk down a fair amount of cash to get this piece of > iron running. > > --Chuck > Power supply requirements are a bit out there for home based collectors, and what software would you run on it (I assume everything was custom per order)? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 00:50:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:50:30 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5077AFA6.6020103@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 01:22 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I am sure there was in the tech's tool box. The guy that came with the >> support contract. If that's original touch up paint I bet some someone >> at Cray stuck it there to make his job easier. It looks odd though. >> Everything seems to shiny too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn it had >> all been repainted. Sticking a bottle of touch up paint in cars is what >> the custom cars usually do. Anyone else seen Cray touch up paint ? Seems >> like we would have seen a bottle on ebay by now. > > My wife was looking over my shoulder when I brought the eBay listing for > the T94 up. She said "only $12K for that?" I replied that if what one > was after was a running T94, that $12K was merely the tip of the iceberg. > > Consider the power supplies, cooling, peripherals and the probability > that the darned thing doesn't work (where does one find parts, even for > a 90's era Cray), one could plunk down a fair amount of cash to get this > piece of iron running. The cooling is the tough part for a T94, otherwise it's not too bad. I've gotten several models of Cray running. They are complicated machines, but they present a nice challenge with an excellent payoff. The uniprocessor variant of the T90 is air-cooled. I wonder if it's possible to downgrade the cooling of the multiprocessor T94. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 00:52:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:52:56 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5077B038.8090507@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 01:40 AM, TeoZ wrote: > and what software would you run on it (I assume everything was custom > per order)? This is a UNIX machine, with compilers. There's no "app store" for Crays. ;) Supercomputer installations generally write their own stuff for their own applications, but there are "standard" software packages (CFD, FEM, etc) for more common uses. The Cray Scientific Library is a vast collection of highly optimized math routines which make a nice toolbox. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spedraja at gmail.com Thu Oct 11 17:22:02 2012 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:22:02 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? Message-ID: As far as I can check it, the systems in Cray-Cyber.org are down *all the time* (with the exception of the 'login' front-end). Somebody know what happens with this initiative ? Regards SPc. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 12 02:00:06 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: MikeS > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 10:15 AM > Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:14 PM > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 24 > >> Message: 29 >> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:14:27 +0000 (UTC) >> From: Alexey Toptygin > >>> Lots of folks like you also believe that there are REASONS why people >>> have >>> the opinions they do about Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, people with black >>> skins >>> or blond hair, etc. etc... >>> >>> Precious irony... ;-) >> >> That was totally uncalled for. Dave was describing a sterotype about a >> group OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER, you are comparing him to racists who blame >> all the worlds problems on a group of OUTSIDERS. This is completely >> different. I think you need to apologise. >> >> ? Alexey > > ----- Reply: > > As a matter of fact I see a fair bit of that on this list as well, by the > same group of regulars: stereotypical judgement and blaming of OUTSIDERS, > i.e. ignorant 'lusers' who don't know or care how their computers > work, the > intricacies of TCP/IP or their operating system, who top post, use M$ > software, etc. etc., and are perhaps busy running businesses, performing > brain operations, whatever, instead... > I do bash: Apple fanboys: the products they worship are overpriced sh*t MS windows fanboys: think there stuff is the best thing since sliced bread I have be a member of both groups, I have seen the light (and no I am not a linux/ubuntu fanboy[1]) I am a quad-platform user (ubuntu/linux/android, amigaOS, MS DOS[2], Windows) PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type there? [1] I do have some ubuntu fanboy aspects to me, but its only to sate there is alternative operating system that dose not cost an arm and a leg [2] soon to include CP/M tom From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 12 02:09:49 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:09:49 -0600 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5077C23D.2060606@brouhaha.com> mc68010 wrote: > kinda doubt Cray put bottles of paint anywhere inside their machines. I wrote: > I wouldn't bet any real money on it. On earlier machines, but perhaps > not something as recent as a T9x, they would sell you the computer > painted any color you wanted, so I wouldn't have been the least bit > surprised if there was somewhere in one of the cabinets where some > spare paint was stored for field touch-up. mc68010 wrote: > I am sure there was in the tech's tool box. My point was that since the color was specific to the customer, and it was ANY color the customer wanted, not just a few from a catalog, it *wouldn't* be in the tech's toolbox. It would be with the machine. However, if the T9x wasn't offered in custom colors, then it would be less likely to be stored in the machine. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Oct 12 02:14:12 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 01:14:12 -0600 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5077C344.5020603@brouhaha.com> TeoZ wrote: > and what software would you run on it Anything written in Fortran. Some other languages were supported, but the majority of customers used them for Fortran. > (I assume everything was custom per order)? The system software (OS, compilers, etc.) certainly wasn't. Hopefully the software licenses are transferable with the hardware, but having never looked at Cray licenses, I have no idea. There even was third-party off-the-shelf application software for these things. For instance, plastic mold flow simulation, which is the main thing Apple's Cray was used for (but not what it was originally purchased for). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 02:12:34 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 02:12:34 -0500 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: heh i just use what ever i feel like On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 2:00 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: MikeS > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, 12 October 2012 10:15 AM > > Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 6:14 PM > > Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 24 > > > >> Message: 29 > >> Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:14:27 +0000 (UTC) > >> From: Alexey Toptygin > > > >>> Lots of folks like you also believe that there are REASONS why people > >>> have > >>> the opinions they do about Jews, Mexicans, Muslims, people with black > >>> skins > >>> or blond hair, etc. etc... > >>> > >>> Precious irony... ;-) > >> > >> That was totally uncalled for. Dave was describing a sterotype about a > >> group OF WHICH HE IS A MEMBER, you are comparing him to racists who > blame > >> all the worlds problems on a group of OUTSIDERS. This is completely > >> different. I think you need to apologise. > >> > >> Alexey > > > > ----- Reply: > > > > As a matter of fact I see a fair bit of that on this list as well, by the > > same group of regulars: stereotypical judgement and blaming of OUTSIDERS, > > i.e. ignorant 'lusers' who don't know or care how their computers > > work, the > > intricacies of TCP/IP or their operating system, who top post, use M$ > > software, etc. etc., and are perhaps busy running businesses, performing > > brain operations, whatever, instead... > > > I do bash: > Apple fanboys: the products they worship are overpriced sh*t > MS windows fanboys: think there stuff is the best thing since sliced bread > I have be a member of both groups, > I have seen the light (and no I am not a linux/ubuntu fanboy[1]) > I am a quad-platform user (ubuntu/linux/android, amigaOS, MS DOS[2], > Windows) > > PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type there? > > [1] I do have some ubuntu fanboy aspects to me, but its only to sate there > is alternative operating system that dose not cost an arm and a leg > [2] soon to include CP/M > > tom > > > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 12 02:43:56 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:43:56 -0700 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> three reasons. Many mailing lists add a large amount of advertising / skred to the bottom of postings. Messing with it causes html posting of the message to explode. So posting at the top where it is clear means I don't see the crap or unleash it on the thread. most email clients seem to default to top posting of replies. I use a large number of them both programs and web based. It isn't worth fighting it. This list drew a top posting of replies by Thunderbird. For most threads, I don' t need to scroll past all the replies if I'm following the thread. I can see what I'm replying to when discussing things. Only when I want to post something detailed and usually when that involves copy / pasting I'll clear the skred off the bottom of the post if it is possible and try to compose a formatted reply with the posted data there. Otherwise I post at the top. On 10/12/2012 12:00 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type there? From chrise at pobox.com Fri Oct 12 05:29:24 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:29:24 -0500 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121012102924.GJ31738@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/11/2012 at 08:48PM -0700), mc68010 wrote: > On 10/11/2012 5:27 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > > > >>Little rich for my blood but, not something you see every day on ebay > >> > >>http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAY-T94-SUPER-COMPUTER-VINTAGE-MAINFRAME-LIQUID-COOLED-/271079049107 > >> > > > >What is that at the bottom of the key and switch compartment? > >Touch-up paint? > > > > Given it being a custom car shop I would bet every inch of metal was > repainted and you are probably right about what that is. It is what > they do. I kinda doubt Cray put bottles of paint anywhere inside > their machines. No... but in the early days they did put a six pack of Leinies in machines they shipped. Not for the customer but for the SEs installing the machine :-) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Leinenkugel_Brewing_Company -- Chris Elmquist From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 12 06:35:54 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 07:35:54 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5077C344.5020603@brouhaha.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> <5077C344.5020603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5078009A.4030405@att.net> On 10/12/2012 3:14 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > TeoZ wrote: >> and what software would you run on it > > Anything written in Fortran. Some other languages were supported, but > the majority of customers used them for Fortran. > > >> (I assume everything was custom per order)? > > The system software (OS, compilers, etc.) certainly wasn't. Hopefully > the software licenses are transferable with the hardware, but having > never looked at Cray licenses, I have no idea. > > There even was third-party off-the-shelf application software for > these things. For instance, plastic mold flow simulation, which is > the main thing Apple's Cray was used for (but not what it was > originally purchased for). > > although this is third hand with no personal experience, there was supposedly a significant amount of highly proprietary code developed by the oil companies for analysis of seismic data in their search for crude. ( I HAVE seen government acquired lists of Cray systems and where they were installed that showed the oil companies as the second largest consumer of the systems so it makes sense.) Steve Shumaker steve From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 06:42:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:42:59 -0300 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <407C8779C3FC4586829AF7AB70E52988@tababook> And people says it causes a burn on plasma panels... --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 7:46 PM Subject: Re: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, steve shumaker wrote: >> explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what >> do you mean by that? > > 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right > corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an > announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes > even have sound with the animated ads! > > Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. > > > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 12 07:38:53 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digital asset management was disk image server Message-ID: <1350045533.84403.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am think of setting up a Digital asset management system for my disk images I am wondering what DAE system would you recommend? --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 07:46:13 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and > > the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut > them up. :) > > g. > > > C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL > If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 07:56:24 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:56:24 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 13:46, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and >> >> the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut >> them up. :) >> >> g. >> >> >> C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? >> Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL >> > If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. Best laugh of the day so far. Thanks. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 08:09:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 October 2012 13:46, geneb wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and >>> >>> the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to shut >>> them up. :) >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >>> C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? >>> Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL >>> >> If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. > > Best laugh of the day so far. Thanks. :?D > You're quite welcome! Don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out, but please do tip her back up. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 08:15:08 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:15:08 +0100 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 14:09, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 12 October 2012 13:46, geneb wrote: >>> >>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >>> >>>> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us and >>>> >>>> the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required to >>>> shut >>>> them up. :) >>>> >>>> g. >>>> >>>> >>>> C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? >>>> Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL >>>> >>> If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. >> >> >> Best laugh of the day so far. Thanks. :?D >> > You're quite welcome! Don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out, but > please do tip her back up. :) Beats cow-tipping. They're never appreciative. You have been tweeted. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 08:42:23 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:42:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > On 10/12/2012 12:00 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > >> PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type >> there? > > three reasons. > > Many mailing lists add a large amount of advertising / skred to the > bottom of postings. That certainly isn't a problem with this email list. > Messing with it causes html posting of the message to explode. Only if the email client itself is poorly designed and/or broken. Out of the 30 or so lists that I'm a member of, including a lot of old eGroups (now Yahoo) lists, I also don't recall ever having this problem with any of them. > So posting at the top where it is clear means I don't see the crap or > unleash it on the thread. ...but then said "crap" is still being sent out across the listserv instead of being trimmed away... > most email clients seem to default to top posting of replies. I use a > large number of them both programs and web based. I wouldn't say most. /Some,/ but not all default to doing so, but every single email client or service that I'm familiar with can be configured to start the reply either before -or- after the quoted message (although sometimes you have to really dig to find the setting). Some clients even give you the option of not quoting any of the message you are replying to. > It isn't worth fighting it. This list drew a top posting of replies by > Thunderbird. I reformat these top-post messages and reply in-line. I can't see how a proper reply could be written without doing so. > For most threads, I don' t need to scroll past all the replies if I'm > following the thread. The underlying issue is that replies should reformat and trim the material to what is being replied to, then no one has to scroll past stuff that isn't relevant. > I can see what I'm replying to when discussing things. Except it makes it harder for others to follow the discussion thread. > Only when I want to post something detailed and usually when that > involves copy / pasting I'll clear the skred off the bottom of the post > if it is possible and try to compose a formatted reply with the posted > data there. Otherwise I post at the top. I think those with a Usenet background tend to be the ones who quote in-line. All that said, if you think replying to some of these long email threads is difficult, try being involved in some of the large discussions on Wikipedia where you can't top-post or make in-lined replies. In those sort of discussions, nesting/quoting levels, blockquotes, and clearly defined sections become incredibly important, at least if you want people to read what you have to say. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 08:58:25 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:58:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: > As a matter of fact I see a fair bit of that on this list as well, by > the same group of regulars: stereotypical judgement and blaming of > OUTSIDERS, i.e. ignorant 'lusers' who don't know or care how their > computers work, the intricacies of TCP/IP or their operating system, who > top post, use M$ software, etc. etc., and are perhaps busy running > businesses, performing brain operations, whatever, instead... ...or those who use "peecees"*, etc? ;) For many I think it just boils down to frustration with the signal to noise ratio and not wanting to have to wade through a bunch of material which either has no applicability to the email list as a whole and/or material that they simply find uninteresting. *Often used on this email list in reference to IBM PC compatible clones. [Yes, I use and even /collect/ some types of technologically interesting PCs, so what of it? I also hunt for and rebuild old UNIX workstations and servers, and even have a large collection of TRS-80 systems.] From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 09:06:46 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:06:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: >> >>> Ian, the problem is that the dumbest of us is also the loudest of us >>> and the smartest of us can't be bothered to spend the energy required >>> to shut them up. :) >> >> C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of >> us!!!??? Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL > > If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. Now now, don't denigrate plants. They have sense enough to grow /towards/ a light source. From saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Oct 12 09:47:30 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF769FA380CE91-19A4-3BA16@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> >Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 21:25:24 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Ebay Cray T94 >Message-ID: <20121011212438.J78683 at shell.lmi.net> >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > >On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: >> As to whether it is touchup paint, > >before buying a Cray, rap on each of the panels to check for Bondo? Crays are fast machines, so I suppose a system crash could be more destructive for them. Have you checked out CompFax? Maybe it was totaled after a particularly nasty segfault. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 12 10:14:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:14:51 -0600 Subject: Microsoft ICE for compositing scans: a success story Message-ID: On my final trip to The Black Hole, I picked up some more Tektronix documentation. One of these was a photocopy of the manual for the 4953/4954 Graphics Tablet. This manual combines the instruction and service manual in one with circuit diagrams and descriptions in the back of the manual. However, since this was a photocopy and not an original, the circuit diagrams were not available in their original size. The person who photocopied the manual had attempted to cover the diagrams with multiple photocopies of different parts of the oversize page. It was difficult to manually match up the different pages, if only just to identify the order in which they should appear in a scanned PDF of the manual. Instead I just fed the scans into Microsoft ICE, available as a free download: Microsoft ICE (Image Composite Editor) The results speak for themselves. See the last three pages of the resulting PDF: You can see that the person who photocopied the manual did miss a few bits of the schematics, but for the most part the schematic is now legible as a single diagram. Due to the blending that occurs at the edges of the individual images, Microsoft ICE will sometimes produce a grayscale image from the bilevel scans I use for making PDFs of manuals. So a little post processing in ImageMagick reduced the bit depth back down to 1 bit per pixel and converted the image to PDF for combining with the rest of the pages via pdftk. The command stream went roughly like this: convert composite.tif -monochrome -compression Group4 -density 600x600 page.pdf The -density argument tells the PDF file that the image was scanned at 600 dpi so that the composite page is shown at the same relative size to the other pages in a PDF viewer. I had previously used hugin, an open source image compositing program that has tutorials for compositing multiple scans like this. However, using hugin to do the same job was a very tedious, laborious and lengthy process. With MS ICE, it was a simple matter of drag-n-drop of the image files onto the application which it processed automatically to find the resulting composite. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 12 10:15:49 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:15:49 -0600 Subject: Microsoft ICE for compositing scans: a success story Message-ID: On my final trip to The Black Hole, I picked up some more Tektronix documentation. One of these was a photocopy of the manual for the 4953/4954 Graphics Tablet. This manual combines the instruction and service manual in one with circuit diagrams and descriptions in the back of the manual. However, since this was a photocopy and not an original, the circuit diagrams were not available in their original size. The person who photocopied the manual had attempted to cover the diagrams with multiple photocopies of different parts of the oversize page. It was difficult to manually match up the different pages, if only just to identify the order in which they should appear in a scanned PDF of the manual. Instead I just fed the scans into Microsoft ICE, available as a free download: Microsoft ICE (Image Composite Editor) The results speak for themselves. See the last three pages of the resulting PDF: You can see that the person who photocopied the manual did miss a few bits of the schematics, but for the most part the schematic is now legible as a single diagram. Due to the blending that occurs at the edges of the individual images, Microsoft ICE will sometimes produce a grayscale image from the bilevel scans I use for making PDFs of manuals. So a little post processing in ImageMagick reduced the bit depth back down to 1 bit per pixel and converted the image to PDF for combining with the rest of the pages via pdftk. The command stream went roughly like this: convert composite.tif -monochrome -compression Group4 page.tif convert page.tif -density 600x600 page.pdf The -density argument tells the PDF file that the image was scanned at 600 dpi so that the composite page is shown at the same relative size to the other pages in a PDF viewer. It may be possible to combine these two commands into a single invocation of ImageMagick with identical results; I haven't tried that. I had previously used hugin, an open source image compositing program that has tutorials for compositing multiple scans like this. However, using hugin to do the same job was a very tedious, laborious and lengthy process. With MS ICE, it was a simple matter of drag-n-drop of the image files onto the application which it processed automatically to find the resulting composite. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 12 11:07:08 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:07:08 -0500 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> After looking at the other photos of the internals, I don't think that skid is up to the task. Since they cracked one of the hatches for illustration, makes me wonder what sort of juice is inside to cool it with. If freon is it still legal? As to whether it is touchup paint, I would also suspect it might be some sort of treatment for the coolant, but not sure what that is. Certainly possible it is what you say. that is a lot of aluminum though a wonder a crappy skid like that hasn't given out. The coolant is Fluorinert, a fluorinated hydrocarbon. It is not an ozone-depleting substance, as far as I know, but would still probably be considered hazmat which would complicate shipment. Probably the best thing would be to drain it, and ship separately in barrels. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 12 11:23:38 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:23:38 -0500 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5078440A.9010508@pico-systems.com> > > From: "TeoZ" > > Power supply requirements are a bit out there for home based collectors, and > what software would you run on it (I assume everything was custom per > order)? > Right, on the nameplate is shows 68 KW electronic dissipation, then you have to supply water chilling for a 68 KW load. Then,. you need a pretty massive support computer to run this thing, I think the last ones were VAX 8000-series machines. They had a stock OS, booted from the support computer, which also provided disk, tape, graphics, etc. So, for your typical US home service, you'd probably need a 200 KVA service, at 120/240 V that would be 833 Amps. You'd also need a cooling tower in your back yard that would send a cloud of vapor all over your neighborhood. Jon From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 11:36:54 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> References: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > The coolant is Fluorinert, a fluorinated hydrocarbon. It is not an > ozone-depleting > substance, as far as I know, but would still probably be considered hazmat > which > would complicate shipment. Probably the best thing would be to drain it, and > ship separately in barrels. > I remember seeing a video years ago of someone dunking a powered on Macintosh (original) into a clear-walled tank of that stuff. It was pretty cool. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 12 11:55:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> >> PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type >> there? > > three reasons. Those were reasons why you don't want to. They were not reasons why you "can't". I do not claim to be impartial. Bottom posting is a TINY amount more work for the poster, and less work for the list and every one of its readers. It ENCOURAGES trimming. Top-posting is a TINY amount less work for the poster, and more work for the system and every one of its readers. It DISCOURAGES trimming. Despite all of the bullshit that is spouted about "my mailer makes the choice", the real issue is that most posters consider the work that they would have to do to scroll down [and maybe delete some of the extraneous crap on the way] to be more important than making everybody else try to figure out what they were on about with distorted and inverted context. Most people will gladly make work for a lot of others to save themselves a miniscule amount of effort. (the "litter principle") Uncle Charlie pointed out that in differentiating "e-mail" V "email", the hyphen, and the evolution over the years that accompanied the dropping of the hyphen means: "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. 'email' is top posting, colors, background wallpaper, pictures and sounds with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, NO attempt too even try spelin, and NO trimming at all ever of the old crap, all of which has they're own dancing kangaroos." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 12:01:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:01:58 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Oct 12, 2012, at 12:36 PM, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The coolant is Fluorinert, a fluorinated hydrocarbon. It is not an ozone-depleting >> substance, as far as I know, but would still probably be considered hazmat which >> would complicate shipment. Probably the best thing would be to drain it, and >> ship separately in barrels. >> > I remember seeing a video years ago of someone dunking a powered on Macintosh (original) into a clear-walled tank of that stuff. It was pretty cool. You can do the same with mineral oil, I believe. However, unlike Fluorinert, mineral oil isn't a great heat carrier and may actually be less effective than air in some cases (especially if you don't have a system to rotate it out to a radiator). - Dave From doc at vaxen.net Fri Oct 12 12:11:58 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:11:58 -0500 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50784F5E.70902@vaxen.net> On 10/12/12 11:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient > trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. > 'email' is top posting, colors, background wallpaper, pictures and sounds > with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, NO attempt too even try > spelin, and NO trimming at all ever of the old crap, all of which has > they're own dancing kangaroos." Now you've done it. From now on, instead of chevrons I'm using the Drunk Baby GIF as my quote character. Properly nested, of course. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 12 12:27:08 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <50784F5E.70902@vaxen.net> from Doc at "Oct 12, 12 12:11:58 pm" Message-ID: <201210121727.q9CHR8RG16580728@floodgap.com> > > "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient > > trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. > > > > 'email' is top posting, colors, background wallpaper, pictures and sounds > > with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, NO attempt too even try > > spelin, and NO trimming at all ever of the old crap, all of which has > > they're own dancing kangaroos." > > > Now you've done it. E-mail is proper inline quoting, spelling and capitalization, and trimming. *scnr -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 12 12:33:53 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> from Jon Elson at "Oct 12, 12 11:07:08 am" Message-ID: <201210121733.q9CHXrKx16580768@floodgap.com> > The coolant is Fluorinert, a fluorinated hydrocarbon. It is not an > ozone-depleting substance, as far as I know, but would still probably be > considered hazmat It indeed is not an ozone-depleter, but it has a specific warning about global warning potential in its brochure (this is for the FC70 variant): http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?mwsId=66666UuZjcFSLXTtnxTE5Xz6EVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--&fn=prodinfo_FC70.pdf It is, however, very low toxicity and very resistant to ignition. Still, I'd probably keep it in hazmat containers just so people didn't get nervous. 8-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 12:43:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:43:27 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5078440A.9010508@pico-systems.com> References: <5078440A.9010508@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <507856BF.3090403@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 12:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> Power supply requirements are a bit out there for home based >> collectors, and what software would you run on it (I assume everything >> was custom per order)? >> > Right, on the nameplate is shows 68 KW electronic dissipation, then you > have to > supply water chilling for a 68 KW load. Then,. you need a pretty massive > support computer to run this thing, I think the last ones were VAX > 8000-series > machines. They had a stock OS, booted from the support computer, which > also > provided disk, tape, graphics, etc. No, you are about fifteen years off. The VAX 8000 series was discontinued well before the design cycle for this Cray had begun. This is a post-XMP Cray PVP system. It is a standalone computer that uses SCSI and/or FibreChannel to connect to its directly-attached disks. The OS is Unicos, which is UNIX. It runs directly on the machine and you log directly into it via telnet or ssh. For an XMP-architecture machine, everything you said would be correct, but those machines (and the way they were run) were LONG gone before this relatively-late-model machine was introduced. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 12:44:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:44:14 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> References: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <507856EE.6000303@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 12:07 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > After looking at the other photos of the internals, I don't think that > skid is up to the task. Since they cracked one of the > hatches for illustration, makes me wonder what sort of juice is inside > to cool it with. If freon is it still legal? It's not freon, it's Fluorinert. And if it's "illegal", a whole lot of Cray installations will have to shut down! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 12 12:51:07 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:51:07 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507856BF.3090403@neurotica.com> References: <5078440A.9010508@pico-systems.com> <507856BF.3090403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5078588B.7030508@att.net> On 10/12/2012 1:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/12/2012 12:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> Power supply requirements are a bit out there for home based >>> collectors, and what software would you run on it (I assume everything >>> was custom per order)? >>> >>> >> Right, on the nameplate is shows 68 KW electronic dissipation, then you >> have to >> supply water chilling for a 68 KW load. Then,. you need a pretty massive >> support computer to run this thing, I think the last ones were VAX >> 8000-series >> machines. They had a stock OS, booted from the support computer, which >> also >> provided disk, tape, graphics, etc. >> > No, you are about fifteen years off. The VAX 8000 series was > discontinued well before the design cycle for this Cray had begun. > > This is a post-XMP Cray PVP system. It is a standalone computer that > uses SCSI and/or FibreChannel to connect to its directly-attached disks. > > The OS is Unicos, which is UNIX. It runs directly on the machine and > you log directly into it via telnet or ssh. > > For an XMP-architecture machine, everything you said would be correct, > but those machines (and the way they were run) were LONG gone before > this relatively-late-model machine was introduced. > > -Dave > > do you have any of the "xmp" class systems? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 12 12:56:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <201210121727.q9CHR8RG16580728@floodgap.com> References: <201210121727.q9CHR8RG16580728@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121012105543.T94912@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > E-mail is proper inline quoting, spelling and capitalization, and trimming. 'would that 'twere so. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 12 12:58:21 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:58:21 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: References: <5078402C.9030909@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <50785A3D.1060907@sydex.com> On 10/12/2012 10:01 AM, David Riley wrote: > You can do the same with mineral oil, I believe. However, unlike Fluorinert, > mineral oil isn't a great heat carrier and may actually be less effective > than air in some cases (especially if you don't have a system to rotate it > out to a radiator). Obviously then, the answer is to provide a hydrogen atmosphere for cooling (although helium would be nearly as effective). I imagine that leakproofing would be a real problem. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 12:59:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:59:37 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5078588B.7030508@att.net> References: <5078440A.9010508@pico-systems.com> <507856BF.3090403@neurotica.com> <5078588B.7030508@att.net> Message-ID: <50785A89.8020607@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 01:51 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > do you have any of the "xmp" class systems? I do not. All of my machines are YMP-class. (spanning nearly twenty years!) There are very few XMP-class machines still surviving, and I believe none are operational. The XMP->YMP transition happened a very long time ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 13:01:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:01:39 -0400 Subject: Digital asset management was disk image server In-Reply-To: <1350045533.84403.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350045533.84403.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50785B03.8000901@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 08:38 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am think of setting up a Digital asset management system for my disk images > > I am wondering what DAE system would you recommend? I'm interested in this info as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 13:04:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:04:50 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5077C344.5020603@brouhaha.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> <5077C344.5020603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50785BC2.1050905@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 03:14 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> and what software would you run on it > > Anything written in Fortran. Some other languages were supported, but > the majority of customers used them for Fortran. C and C++ are well-supported. C++ has gained lots of ground in the HPC world over the past 10-15 years, for all but the most performance-sensitive stuff. Probably due to the fact that "summer slaves" all know C++ and rarely know "old" stuff like FORTRAN...even if they're using "new" FORTRAN. >> (I assume everything was custom per order)? > > The system software (OS, compilers, etc.) certainly wasn't. Hopefully > the software licenses are transferable with the hardware, but having > never looked at Cray licenses, I have no idea. Unicos uses FlexLM from release 10 onwards. Cray negotiates software/OS licenses individually, though there are some "boilerplate" ones for simpler setups. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From bob at jfcl.com Fri Oct 12 13:10:59 2012 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:10:59 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <5077AFA6.6020103@neurotica.com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> <5077AFA6.6020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <002901cda8a4$eece1ac0$cc6a5040$@com> >Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote: > The cooling is the tough part for a T94, The nameplate in the one photo says 100A @ 340VDC, twice (I assume that's two separate supplies for two CPUs). Is that really right? That's 68kW!! In a box that size??? No wonder it's water cooled. Your average household water heater is only about 1/10th that; this thing would make enough hot water for a small apartment building... Bob Armstrong From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 12 13:16:26 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:16:26 -0700 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> On 10/11/2012 03:22 PM, SPC wrote: > As far as I can check it, the systems in Cray-Cyber.org are down *all > the time* (with the exception of the 'login' front-end). > > Somebody know what happens with this initiative ? Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 13:30:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <002901cda8a4$eece1ac0$cc6a5040$@com> References: <507677A7.6070506@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121011100810.W63525@shell.lmi.net> <507711F9.8090707@jwsss.com> <50772705.7030609@gmail.com> <50779323.6070609@gmail.com> <507795AF.6030204@brouhaha.com> <50779CA7.7000607@gmail.com> <5077A92C.3040106@sydex.com> <5077AFA6.6020103@neurotica.com> <002901cda8a4$eece1ac0$cc6a5040$@com> Message-ID: <507861CD.10401@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 02:10 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote: >> The cooling is the tough part for a T94, > > The nameplate in the one photo says 100A @ 340VDC, twice (I assume that's > two separate supplies for two CPUs). Is that really right? That's 68kW!! > In a box that size??? No wonder it's water cooled. Your average household > water heater is only about 1/10th that; this thing would make enough hot > water for a small apartment building... Well, it's a nameplate rating, so figure 1/3 to 1/2 of that at most. But still! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From drb at msu.edu Fri Oct 12 13:43:50 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:43:50 -0400 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 12 Oct 2012 11:16:26 PDT.) <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it increases security to block it. Telnet appears to be down, but SSH is up. De From shumaker at att.net Fri Oct 12 14:00:15 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:00:15 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <50784F5E.70902@vaxen.net> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> <50784F5E.70902@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <507868BF.7020703@att.net> On 10/12/2012 1:11 PM, Doc wrote: > On 10/12/12 11:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient >> trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. >> 'email' is top posting, colors, background wallpaper, pictures and >> sounds >> with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, NO attempt too even try >> spelin, and NO trimming at all ever of the old crap, all of which has >> they're own dancing kangaroos." > > > Now you've done it. > > From now on, instead of chevrons I'm using the Drunk Baby GIF as my > quote character. Properly nested, of course. > > > Doc > "yodelling jellyfish".....? need more data.... google was NOT helpful From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 12 13:56:29 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:56:29 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin >>> PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type >>> there? >> >> three reasons. > > Those were reasons why you don't want to. > They were not reasons why you "can't". Although I had actually posted at the bottom of the original post, I agree with Jim and think they were valid reasons why top posting is more efficient, at least with much of today's hardware and software... > Top-posting is a TINY amount less work for the poster, and more work for > the system and every one of its readers. It DISCOURAGES trimming. Please exempt me from "every one"; I find reading bottom posts a useless waste of my time, since I've already previously read everything being replied to and don't need/want to have to wade through it again. Many posts on this list could express all they have to say with only the subject line and "Me too" or "+1". Trimming is a good thing no matter which end you're posting on. As is in-line quoting IF the context justifies it. > Most people will gladly make work for a lot of others to save themselves a > miniscule amount of effort. (the "litter principle") Again, I actually appreciate the consideration shown me by top posters who don't make me wade once again through the same dreck I've been reading in the last ten posts in the same thread. > "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient > trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. > 'email' is top posting, colors, Poor spelling, insufficient trimming, etc. are a PITA that has nothing whatsoever to do with the issue of top- vs. bottom-posting. As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >>>>>s. A chacun son gout, as they say, but it seems to be a characteristic of many members of this hobby to cling fiercely to the old ways and waste bandwidth over and over again complaining about the same tired issues and judging and criticizing anyone who does things differently for what he/she considers valid reasons. m From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 12 13:57:20 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:57:20 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: <593A5161FEE5465DB571668D9C606628@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:00:06 -0700 (PDT) > From: Tom Sparks .. lots of trimmage... > I do bash: > Apple fanboys: the products they worship are overpriced sh*t > MS windows fanboys: think there stuff is the best thing since sliced bread > I have be a member of both groups, > I have seen the light (and no I am not a linux/ubuntu fanboy[1]) > I am a quad-platform user (ubuntu/linux/android, amigaOS, MS DOS[2], > Windows) I have to ask: Why? What makes it worth the time you spend on it? What purpose does it serve except to expose your bigotry? As it happens, I don't think I've ever actually run across anyone who thinks MS stuff is the best thing since sliced bread, but there's no shortage of *nix users who believe their stuff is... > PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type there? I think if you put on your glasses and/or improved your reading skills somewhat you'd see that I did exactly that (although I happen to think it's a pointless and cumbersome relic of the golden days of Usenet glory...) And why can't you learn the difference between 'there' and 'their' and how to use an apostrophe? ;-D > [1] I do have some ubuntu fanboy aspects to me, but its only to sate there > is alternative operating system that dose not cost an arm and a leg > tom More precious irony ;-) m From spedraja at ono.com Fri Oct 12 14:06:19 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 21:06:19 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Yes, SSH is up... but no one of the systems (once identified) is up. At least in my last connections. Regards. Sergio 2012/10/12 Dennis Boone : > > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. > > Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it > increases security to block it. > > Telnet appears to be down, but SSH is up. > > De From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 14:11:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:11:09 -0400 Subject: Quadra 700 buttons? Message-ID: Hey folks, I recently brought a Quadra 700 back to life that I got non-working for a decent price off eBay. The resuscitation is an exciting story in and of itself: - First, the power supply was dead, which I traced to a bad transformer for the +5v trickle supply, which also operates the rest of the power supply's electronics; not being able to repair it or determine the winding ratio for a replacement, I had to get another power supply for more than I paid for the machine itself. If I ever find out the details of the transformer, I may resurrect the supply as a spare; the folks formerly of Bomarc have reverse-engineered schematics that I may avail myself of. - The PRAM battery had exploded, causing untold amounts of damage to everything beneath it. One SIMM was rendered non-functional, the interrupt and reset buttons are completely useless (they alternate between inoperable and intermittently on, neither of which is useful) and the acid ate away pin 14 (the power leg) of a 74F04 as well as the pad beneath it, which made for infuriatingly erratic behavior until I figured it out and fixed it with a white wire. Anyway, I have a very happy machine now, but I need to replace a few components. I've found a perfect replacement for the battery holder (which was eaten away by the acid, as I discussed in a previous email), but I'm having a hard time finding replacements for the right-angle buttons used for the reset and interrupt buttons. They're not strictly necessary, but since I plan on using the machine for NetBSD driver development among other things, they'd be very nice to have. So does anyone happen to know where to find the BOM for the Q700 (highly unlikely), know what kind of buttons were used for the Q700 (also probably the IIci and IIcx, somewhat less unlikely), or know a good way to find buttons with precise mechanical dimensions? I'd be greatly indebted. I realize this is a long shot, but if there's anywhere that might have it, it would be here (also Erik's VCF, which I'll also check). - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 14:33:15 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:33:15 +0100 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 17:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Uncle Charlie pointed out that in differentiating "e-mail" V "email", > the hyphen, and the evolution over the years that accompanied the dropping > of the hyphen means: > > "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient > trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. > 'email' is top posting, colors, background wallpaper, pictures and sounds > with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, NO attempt too even try > spelin, and NO trimming at all ever of the old crap, all of which has > they're own dancing kangaroos." Love it. Paraphrased and blogged. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 12 14:34:57 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 15:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210121934.PAA01046@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...yet another incarnation of the perennial quoting style issue...] I wrote up a piece about this which ended up as a post on my blah. Anyone interested in my thoughts on the matter is invited to find it there. The piece itself is a text file, available at ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1a.txt (also available over HTTP, but that seems at least mildly inappropriate on this list); the blah post, which is little more than a pointer to the above, is at http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2012-09-26-1.html (and, while available over FTP, is arguably less appropriate to view that way even here because it _is_ HTML). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 12 14:35:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121012123015.G94912@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: > Trimming is a good thing no matter which end you're posting on. As is > in-line quoting IF the context justifies it. Absolutely! The only time that NOT trimming is justified would be in an argument where there could be claims that statements were taken out of context. > > "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and insufficient > > trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. > > 'email' is top posting, colors, The "e-mail V email" quote is an illustration of the evolution of a hyphenated item becoming an accepted word, with an implicit link to the changes that occur over the same time. I am seriously considering including it in a minor discussion of the information science aspects of hyphenation. > Poor spelling, insufficient trimming, etc. are a PITA that has nothing > whatsoever to do with the issue of top- vs. bottom-posting. Absolutely! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 14:55:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:55:39 +0100 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 19:56, MikeS wrote: > > Please exempt me from "every one"; I find reading bottom posts a useless > waste of my time, since I've already previously read everything being > replied to and don't need/want to have to wade through it again. Many posts > on this list could express all they have to say with only the subject line > and "Me too" or "+1". Then you're using a poor email client. Smarter ones can (optionally) collapse or expand levels of previously-quote text. Gmail does this automatically if it can tell that you've read the quoted text before, for instance; I used to use an add-in for Thunderbird 2.x. > As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new and > quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >>>>>s. In no way mutually exclusive; again, a good MUA can do that as an optional feature. > A chacun son gout, as they say, but it seems to be a characteristic of many > members of this hobby to cling fiercely to the old ways and waste bandwidth > over and over again complaining about the same tired issues and judging and > criticizing anyone who does things differently for what he/she considers > valid reasons. In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should update to something better. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 14:58:37 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1350071917.52533.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: geneb > C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL > If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. g. C: And pouring water over my head would accomplish what? ???? I'll admit how awfully dumb I am. But at least I don't go around telling everyone how schmott I am, in an obvious attempt to shroud the obvious truth bozo. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Fri Oct 12 15:01:38 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:01:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1350072098.42131.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Liam Proven > You're quite welcome!? Don't forget to tip your waitress on the way out, but > please do tip her back up. :) Beats cow-tipping. They're never appreciative. C: Sounds like the voice of experience. Perhaps they've been unappreciative because they weren't even aware you payed a visit. You have been tweeted. ;?) C: O dear. I'm afraid to ask what that might signify on that side of the pond. They don't even leave the birds alone! From stueberahoo at yahoo.de Fri Oct 12 15:03:07 2012 From: stueberahoo at yahoo.de (Anke Stueber) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:03:07 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5078777B.4040508@yahoo.de> On 12.10.2012 00:22, SPC wrote: > As far as I can check it, the systems in Cray-Cyber.org are down *all > the time* (with the exception of the 'login' front-end). > > Somebody know what happens with this initiative ? The hall where they keep the systems is closed because of maintenance work on the roof and can't be accessed for security reasons. Wolfgang Stief gave a talk on the project at VCFE 13.0 in Munich and showed some pictures of the current state of the hall. Regards, Anke From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 12 15:12:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 13:12:57 -0700 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <507879C9.5020701@sydex.com> On 10/12/2012 11:43 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Telnet appears to be down, but SSH is up. Okay, that's useful at least. But still no system up as far as I can tell. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 12 15:22:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 16:22:35 -0400 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <50787C0B.8030609@neurotica.com> On 10/12/2012 02:43 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. > > Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it > increases security to block it. The world seems to have no shortage of clueless and incompetent network admins. I enjoy cleaning up their messes (or more properly, getting paid to) but it does make my neck sore from all the head-shaking. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spedraja at ono.com Fri Oct 12 15:45:22 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:45:22 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <5078777B.4040508@yahoo.de> References: <5078777B.4040508@yahoo.de> Message-ID: Danke/Thanks, Anke. Did W.Stief gave some notice about a moment in the future where the systems would be available again ? Regards Sergio 2012/10/12 Anke Stueber : > On 12.10.2012 00:22, SPC wrote: >> As far as I can check it, the systems in Cray-Cyber.org are down *all >> the time* (with the exception of the 'login' front-end). >> >> Somebody know what happens with this initiative ? > > The hall where they keep the systems is closed because of maintenance > work on the roof and can't be accessed for security reasons. Wolfgang > Stief gave a talk on the project at VCFE 13.0 in Munich and showed some > pictures of the current state of the hall. > > Regards, Anke > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 16:01:50 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > > In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour > top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should > update to something better. ...like Alpine. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 16:04:29 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <1350071917.52533.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1349995746.77132.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1350071917.52533.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: geneb > > >> C: OMG! Who goes around stating they're amongst the smartest of us!!!??? Bozo. LOL LOL LOL LOL >> > If you were any dumber I'd have to water you twice a week. > > g. > > C: And pouring water over my head would accomplish what? > *shakes head, blinks repeatedly* Some people were accidentally dropped on their heads as babies. You've obviously been thrown at a wall. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 16:15:10 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:15:10 +0100 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >> >> In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour >> top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should >> update to something better. > > ...like Alpine. :) Whatever floats your boat. I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 12 16:19:22 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Oct 12, 12 02:01:50 pm" Message-ID: <201210122119.q9CLJMnZ16515104@floodgap.com> > ...like Alpine. :) I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on. -- Carl Sandburg ------ From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 12 16:26:32 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:26:32 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:55:39 +0100 > From: Liam Proven I was wondering when we'd hear from you ;-) > ... then you're using a poor email client. Of course ;-) > Smarter ones can (optionally) collapse or expand levels of > previously-quote text. Gmail does this automatically... I didn't realize that works with the digest versions; guess I'd better start using gmail... > In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour > top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should update > to something better. Of course! After all, there are so many different e-mail clients to choose from for my smartphone and PDA... And why should we show any respect or consideration for those folks who for whatever reason don't have a choice at all... m From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Oct 12 16:31:02 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:31:02 +0100 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: <201210122119.q9CLJMnZ16515104@floodgap.com> References: <201210122119.q9CLJMnZ16515104@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 22:19, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ...like Alpine. :) > > I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it. Profs -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 16:38:08 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> >>> In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour >>> top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should >>> update to something better. >> >> ...like Alpine. :) > > Whatever floats your boat. > > I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things. I've never tried it. I enjoy Alpine because it quotes properly and doesn't generate HTML (at least by default) email. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 12 16:38:53 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: <201210122119.q9CLJMnZ16515104@floodgap.com> References: <201210122119.q9CLJMnZ16515104@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> ...like Alpine. :) > > I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it. Aw c'mon, you know you want at least Pine. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 12 16:58:48 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Oct 12, 12 02:38:53 pm" Message-ID: <201210122158.q9CLwmBs14090406@floodgap.com> > > > ...like Alpine. :) > > > > I resolutely cling to old, brown Elm because I'm used to it. > > Aw c'mon, you know you want at least Pine. :) Ewww! But I don't mind Mutt. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I think you underestimate the stupidness." -------------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 12 17:01:12 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:01:12 +0100 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 October 2012 22:26, MikeS wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- >> >> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:55:39 +0100 >> From: Liam Proven > > > I was wondering when we'd hear from you ;-) Uh-oh! O_O >> ... then you're using a poor email client. > > Of course ;-) Well, it /is/ ClassicCmp. There's probably some people reading this on a 1972 PDP-8 via a 6-bit character set that only has uppercase letters. >> Smarter ones can (optionally) collapse or expand levels of >> previously-quote text. Gmail does this automatically... > > > I didn't realize that works with the digest versions; guess I'd better start > using gmail... Digest are horrible. Again, a half-decent email client and a bit of filtering removes the need. I direct all my email from something like half a dozen additional addresses into my Gmail box. I have nearly 100 filters set up that redirect 90-95% of it into folders, so that it doesn't clutter my main inbox. I must receive many hundreds of emails a day - I don't count - but my main inbox never normally goes above 15-20 a day. Digests destroy threading, context and all in the name of a false economy. >> In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour >> top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should update >> to something better. > > > Of course! After all, there are so many different e-mail clients to choose > from for my smartphone and PDA... Depends what devices they are! I am cursed with an iPhone until my contract runs out - any day now, happily. Its built-in mail client is so brain-damaged that I cannot quote properly, so I only use it for brief, urgent replies. However, the Gmail client is free and can trim and quote no problem, and also mark-as-spam and other features that the Apple one can't do. So if I /need/ to write a proper email, I can - I just don't normally use the Gmail client because #1 Apple won't allow you to change default apps and #2 the Gmail client is quite slow on my 3GS. Ditto on my old, sadly-lost Android phone. The original Android 2.2 email client only supported top-quoting, but there was K9-Mail which could do it fine. My old Nokia E90's built-in client was poor, but even an elderly version of Symbian S60 has a Gmail app. And so on. > And why should we show any respect or consideration for those folks who for > whatever reason don't have a choice at all... If someone really has /no choice/ then fair enough. But for instance iPhone owners /do/ have a choice. If someone wants to participate in mailing lists, for example, on their phone, then I feel that it behooves them to find a client that can actually handle email for grown-ups. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 17:11:46 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:11:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. > > Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it > increases security to block it. Correction -- people block /all/ ICMP traffic thinking that it somehow increases security and then don't understand why basic stuff like TCP doesn't work quite right. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 16:16:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:16:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506763F8.8030609@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Sep 29, 12 02:11:20 pm Message-ID: [Sorry for being net.silent for a couple of weeks. It was nothing wrong with me or my machines. No,my ISP managed to break their PPP deamon and then take about 10 days to investigate it] > Hoover Oven or Microwave, and did wonder what else they had badged with > the Hoover brand They certainly made washing machines at one point. And I suspect tumble dryers. Oh, and clothes irons. I've not seen any Hoobver brand ovens here, but then I don't exactly go looking for such things ;-) > since here in the US it is pretty much vacuum cleaners. I couldn't see > any other appliances > in the scene, but they did have a very good closeup of the one > appliance. Over here you see > many different brands of things around houses from German, Korean, US > and many others. > Same here. The better brands of large appliances tend to be German, but small things 9kettles, irons, etc) can come from just about anywhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 16:25:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:25:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <201209302216.SAA24749@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 30, 12 06:16:25 pm Message-ID: > > > Hmmm... One 'thought experiemnt' goes like this : > > > Take your favourite microprocessor and write a stand-alone program > > for it. Burn that program into an EPROM and wire it up [...]. Most > > people agree that EPROM cotnains 'firmware'. > > > But an EPROM is just a combinatorial logic circuit. So for each of > > the 8 data bits of the EPROM, write down the logic equation giving it > > as a functionof the address inputs. Now implement that logic > > equation using TTL gates. Repeat for the other EPROM data pins. > > Wire the mess up, add tri-state buffers to the oputput, and connect > > it in place of the EPROM. The microrpccor runs as before. > > Well, to be picky, I'm inclined to doubt it. The pile of TTL (quite > aside from drawing enough power to heat your house) is very likely to > have substantially higher propagation delay than the original PROM. I wonder... The older EPROMs had quite high access times (450ns was quite common). I susepct I could make a 128 location 'TTL ROM' which was faster than that without much effort. > > > It must do. It gets the same logic levels on its data pins in the 2 > > cases for each address it outputs. The microprocessor cann't know > > whether it's an EPROM or a mass of 74xx chips. > > > But the result sure doesn;t _look_ like firmware :-) > > I'd say it looks as much like firmware as a PROM implemented as a board > full of diodes, some of which have been cut. :-) :-). I do find it amusing that the printset for the DEC diode matrix boot ROM for the PDPD11 (M792?) includes schematics for the standard versions showing only those diodes that are fitted. A scheamtic for waht is essentialyl a piece of software is certainly odd... > > > For that matter, It's difficult to distinguish between 'microcode' > > and a 'state machine'. > > In theory. In practice, there is usually little doubt - while the two > formalisms may be formally identical, there are, as reflected in the > terminological difference, differences of attitude and style between > the two. Sure there are things that are clearly micrcode (like the control program on the 09810-66513 baord in my hP9830). There are things that any reasonable person would call state machiens (like the memeory timing circuit in that same machine). But what about the disk controller (or ethernet interface) in a PERQ? There's a ROM, sequenced by a 2910 chip. It controls the various FIOFs, data encoders, CRC genrator, etc. Is that microcode or a state machine. I think it's on the border ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 16:41:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:41:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <201209302252.SAA24915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Sep 30, 12 06:52:59 pm Message-ID: > > > In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find a neat solution to > > the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network > > circuit [1]. > > ...dangling pointer here... Sorry ... [1] Part of the DAC board in an HP9125A plotter, so it's on-topic-ish. > > > I can (and did) write down the equations givign the output voltage as > > a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition principle > > to solve for one input at a time) and solve them. > > I'd say that counts as doing math(s)! So would I. My point is that while I _can_ do this, and while I can therefore show the circuit has the effect I would think it needs to, I don't realyl feel I _understand_ the circuit. > > > This shows me it does indeed behave as I'd esxpect, but I still don't > > feel satisfied. I don't feel I really understnad it. I am still > > looking for an intuitive way to figure it out. > > Depending on the resistor network, there may not be one. That may be true. > > I wanted to do something of the sort myself, once (prompted by the > resistor network in xkcd #730). I treated it as a case of generalizing > an uninteresting problem enough to make it interesting and then solving > it; I built a program that takes a resistor network, including > resistances and the ability to specify voltages at some nodes, and sets > up the equations and solves them, giving current through each > resistance and voltage at each node. (Of course, anyone who wants a > copy is welcome to it; if you have git set up, you can ge tit by > cloning git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/resistor-networks; if you > don't, I can mail out copies. You'll also need lcs-cvt, as in > ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/local/src/lcs-cvt/, or a little hand > tweaking.) There are a couple of tricks that might be useful. both only work for circuits contianing linear impedances, like resisotrs, not non-linear things like semiconductors : The first is very useful if you are solving crertian problems by hand. It's called the cuperpostion principle. It goes like this. Pick a resistor in the circuit (whichever one you are interested in). Now, short out all the power sources in the circuit aaprt from one. Calcualte the current through the resistor in the modified circuit. Now repeat 'unshorting' each power source in turn. Add up all the currents (take account of direction, of course). The resulting current is the current thriough the resistor in the complete circuit (all power sources on). this is a very quick way to solve the typical 2-battery, 3-reisostr 'T' circuit The second method is much more general. Firstly, you work in terms of admittance, which is 1/impedance. The point being that admitances in parallel add. Now, if you haev an addmitance Y(i,j) between points i and j in the circuit, then the currnet throuigh it is, of course, Y(i,j)*(v(i)-V(j)). That is equivalent to taking that current from node i and feeding the same current into node j. You can now neatly represent that equitaion as part of an n*n matrix equation (where n is the total number of nodes) -- there's a matrix (n*n) containing the admitances suitableed added and subtracted multiplying a vector of the voltages at the nodes. This, of course equals the resdultant current flowing into or otu of each node, again a vector. Noramlly this will eb zero, but power sources are replaced by current sources, which contribute a current into or out of the notdes to which they are conencted. Now, if that matrix is non-singular, you simply invert it, multiply the cvector of courrent sources by it, and you get the voltages at all the nodes of the circuit. The problem is the matrix is _always_ singular. This represents the physical fact that there are no absolute voltages, only differneces. No matter, simply take a note (say node 0) to be ground, and delete the appropriate row an column from the matrix, the element from the currnet and voltage vectors. The resulting matrix is non-singular, invert, etc... > > > On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically inclined than 90% > > (or more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of > > the neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural > > logarithms, not the elctronic chaerge), for example. > > I once was at work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which said > "SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2 is perhaps I asusme that evaluates to c. > clear enough as a text form of it. I said "h-bar is Planck's constant, Hmm.. I thought h-bar was conventionally plancks constant _divided by 2pi_ > 137 is the fine structure constant, mu-zero is the permittivity of free > space, but what's e?" - because I was pretty sure e didn't represent > antilog(1) there. My first guess would have bene the electronic charge. On second thoughts, permitivity? > > He said, "You're the first person to have gotten as far as `h-bar is > Planck's constant'.". (e turned out to be a constant which depends on > the material in the vicinity - the expression gives the local speed of > light, as opposed to the vacuum speed.) That does sound like perimitivity. But why mu_0, and not mu, then? OK, mu_r (relative permiablitly) is very close to 1 for non-magnetic materials, the variation in the speed of light is due to the perimitvity change mostly, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 16:47:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:47:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Sep 30, 12 09:24:33 pm Message-ID: > > Mouse wrote: > > I'd say it looks as much like firmware as a PROM implemented as a > board full > > of diodes, some of which have been cut. :-) > > > So, Wang Laboratories made a series of machines it called the > 100-series. There were display (Nixie tube) and printing versions of > the calculator. > > The logic of the machine was small-scale DTL/TTL IC's. > It was a microcoded architecture. > > The microcode sequencer consisted of a TI TMS 2600 ROM, which took > inputs from various state flip flops, and generated control signals that > ran the microcode through the sequences. The microcode itself > was...wait for it... > Two large circuit boards populated with diodes! The microcode itself > was "hard wired' in diodes. Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the remains of one of those somewhere :-( I got it yeras ago, and used the keyboard, case, and PSU as part of my first homebrew machine. I think i have the main PCBs mostly intact still. I did desolder some of the connectors and maybe tghe odd IC, though. IIRC there wewre 3 boards in the pile. The bottome 2 were the didoe matrix firmware ROMs, the top one was full of mostly TTL. Ther was anoitehr 24 pin IC (the ROM you mention) and some RAMs (1101a?). I seem to rememebr a coupele of smalelr PCBs tht fitted on top, display drivers? > > The machine was developed at a time that MOS ROM wasn't quite there in > terms of size and cost to hold the microcode, so the diode ROM was used. > > Question is: Is the diode ROM "firmware"? I would say the diodes and PCB are hardware, in the same way that an EPOM chip is hardware. The (electrical)_ layout of the diodes is firmware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 17:00:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:00:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk being indexed (again) In-Reply-To: <5069DD27.8050603@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 1, 12 11:12:55 am Message-ID: > > On 10/1/12 11:04 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > > That's not a good thing? > > > > Do you consider cctlk to be a private mailing list? > > I do. I do not, for the following reasons : 1) Anyone (AFAIK) can join 2) The exsitlng members do not know when somebody joins. We do not know who is reasing the messages 3) There arelady is a publically-accsssible archive of the list. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 17:19:24 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:19:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >>> >>>> In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour >>>> top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should >>>> update to something better. >>> >>> ...like Alpine. :) >> >> Whatever floats your boat. >> >> I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most >> things. > > I've never tried it. I enjoy Alpine because it quotes properly and > doesn't generate HTML (at least by default) email. Not to mention that Alpine (and Pine) are quite fast for reading large volumes of email once you learn all the keystroke commands. While I use Thunderbird for some stuff, I still use Alpine for listserv emails. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 18:26:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:26:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > >> "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and >> insufficient trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. >> 'email' is top posting, colors, > As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new > and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of > >>>>>s. I think this reply deserves a screenshot. http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 12 18:40:28 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Firewalling ICMPs [Re: Cray-Cyber... down ?] In-Reply-To: References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201210122340.TAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...] people block /all/ ICMP traffic thinking that it somehow > increases security Well, to be fair, it does. It's just that the additional increment in security it provides is so small compared to the price it exacts that it's rarely an appropriate tradeoff to make. But even understanding that there _is_ a tradeoff, much less actually making it appropriately, is something far too few people do. > and then don't understand why basic stuff like TCP doesn't work quite > right. Yes. The price. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Oct 12 19:04:42 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:04:42 -0500 Subject: Motorola EXORset - need software Message-ID: <000b01cda8d6$593ead80$0bbc0880$@rubin@ameritech.net> I just received a very nice Motorola EXORset 110 with docs but no software. Does anyone have disks or images for XDOS and the associated development tools? Thanks, Jack KC9HVE From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 12 19:16:51 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:16:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Firewalling ICMPs [Re: Cray-Cyber... down ?] In-Reply-To: <201210122340.TAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201210122340.TAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> [...] people block /all/ ICMP traffic thinking that it somehow >> increases security > > Well, to be fair, it does. It's just that the additional increment in > security it provides is so small compared to the price it exacts that > it's rarely an appropriate tradeoff to make. > > But even understanding that there _is_ a tradeoff, much less actually > making it appropriately, is something far too few people do. > >> and then don't understand why basic stuff like TCP doesn't work quite >> right. > > Yes. The price. :) In such a case then block ICMP type 8 (echo) inbound but don't block ICMP type 3 (destination unreachable), 11 (time exceeded), and heck even type 4 (source quench), /both/ inbound and outbound... I can't count the number of times I've seen someone do this. The ICMP protocol is essential for normal TCP function and contrary to what these "Must block all ICMPs!" fools think is used for a whole lot of stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Control_Message_Protocol To be fair however, the people who tend to do this are the same people who try to block all UDP traffic and/or who block tcp/53 and then wonder why their DNS requests randomly fail... From db at db.net Fri Oct 12 19:25:06 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 19:25:06 -0500 Subject: Firewalling ICMPs [Re: Cray-Cyber... down ?] In-Reply-To: References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201210122340.TAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121013002506.GA43281@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 07:16:51PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > > >> [...] people block /all/ ICMP traffic thinking that it somehow > >> increases security > > > > Well, to be fair, it does. It's just that the additional increment in > > security it provides is so small compared to the price it exacts that > > it's rarely an appropriate tradeoff to make. > > > > But even understanding that there _is_ a tradeoff, much less actually > > making it appropriately, is something far too few people do. > > > >> and then don't understand why basic stuff like TCP doesn't work quite > >> right. > > > > Yes. The price. :) > > In such a case then block ICMP type 8 (echo) inbound but don't block ICMP > type 3 (destination unreachable), 11 (time exceeded), and heck even type 4 > (source quench), /both/ inbound and outbound... I can't count the number > of times I've seen someone do this. > > The ICMP protocol is essential for normal TCP function and contrary to > what these "Must block all ICMPs!" fools think is used for a whole lot of > stuff. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Control_Message_Protocol > > To be fair however, the people who tend to do this are the same people who > try to block all UDP traffic and/or who block tcp/53 and then wonder why > their DNS requests randomly fail... bah. who needs PMTU discovery anyway. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 12 19:32:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 17:32:43 -0700 Subject: Firewalling ICMPs [Re: Cray-Cyber... down ?] In-Reply-To: References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201210122340.TAA01915@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <5078B6AB.6000602@sydex.com> Well, going in using SSH shows all systems down for me too. But telnet access goes into the bit bucket. That thing must be pretty full now--where do they empty it out? --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 12 19:47:32 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 20:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210130047.UAA02151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...]... Two large circuit boards populated with diodes! The >> microcode itself was "hard wired' in diodes. > Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the > remains of one of those somewhere :-( I think if I were to do unpleasant things to people who ruined working hardware out of ignorance as a kid I'd have to start with myself and follow up with just about everyone who was lucky enough to have hardware to play with at that age. There once existed a rather nice desk calculator, with Nixie - or something indistinguishable from them from what I can recall - display tubes, and some rather interesting guts that I suspect was SSI at most, probably bit-serial or digit-serial or some such. I poked around inside it. By the last I recall of it, it probably wasn't good for anything but harvesting parts, like the Nixies and the keyboard, from. I'm not sure whether I regret meddling with it. I have little doubt I broke it, but I'm not sure what I learned in the process wasn't worth it, though it's been long enough I'm not sure what that covers. I do regret losing the remaining pieces; if nothing else, I'd like to have those display tubes. But, last time I went looking for the remnants, I couldn't find any of them, and that was at least a decade ago, so it's likely in a landfill somewhere. I do have some faint hope it's in the hands of someone who appreciates it.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 12 20:05:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 21:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210130105.VAA02209@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...]. This represents the physical fact that there are no absolute > voltages, only differneces. That's actually not quite true. There is an absolute voltage reference in the form of electrical neutrality, with objects with an electron deficit being positive to it and objects with an electron excess being negative to it. However, for voltage magnitudes likely to be encountered outside an electrostatics setup, absolute neutrality is hard enough to identify, and deviations from it so small, that your statement is an excellent approximation, certainly good enough for practical purposes. :-) > No matter, simply take a note (say node 0) to be ground, and delete > the appropriate row an column from the matrix, the element from the > currnet and voltage vectors. The resulting matrix is non-singular, > invert, etc... The resulting matrix _may be_ non-singular. There are two ways it can be singular: if there is a dead short between any two voltage nodes, in which case any attempt to solve the matrix will result in division by zero at some point, or if there is a part of the circuit with no connection to any voltage nodes, in which case all voltages in that portion are indeterminate. I ran into those conditions when building my resistor-blob solving program - that's why I'm aware of them. :) >> I once was at work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which >> said "SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2 > I asusme that evaluates to c. As I mentioned later, it evaluates to the _local_ speed of light (always <= c, with equality only in a vacuum). Talking with the guy, it turned out the shirt came from some undergrad physics club or some such, and they wanted to come up with something at least a little bit more interesting than just another way to write c. :-) >> I said "h-bar is Planck's constant, > Hmm.. I thought h-bar was conventionally plancks constant _divided by > 2pi_ Yes. I was being somewhat inaccurate in the interests of brevity (at the time, I mean, not when reporting the event now). > [...]. But why mu_0, and not mu, then? I'm not sure. I am and was not physicist enough to really understand, nor explain, the formula. I discussed it briefly with him, but not in enough detail to cover things like that. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jimpdavis at gorge.net Fri Oct 12 20:18:01 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:18:01 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: <201210130047.UAA02151@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: The BPA (Bonneville power administration) dumped a bunch of Wang transistor / Core memory calculators in 1977 and a local surplus/scrapper picked them up for sale. The calculator "brain box" was priced out of my budget, Something like $30.00. I did pick up a $5.00 display head with Nixie display and Microswitch keyboard and proceeded to disassemble it for parts. The other regret was a missle control system by I believe, Singer. a small cast metal box with flex backplane and stuffed with gold plated stacked flatpack MCM modules. I fould some amazing components, A zener reference Mil-spec was listed in the mot catalog for $180.00. -jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mouse Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 5:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: PDP-10 >> [...]... Two large circuit boards populated with diodes! The >> microcode itself was "hard wired' in diodes. > Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the > remains of one of those somewhere :-( I think if I were to do unpleasant things to people who ruined working hardware out of ignorance as a kid I'd have to start with myself and follow up with just about everyone who was lucky enough to have hardware to play with at that age. There once existed a rather nice desk calculator, with Nixie - or something indistinguishable from them from what I can recall - display tubes, and some rather interesting guts that I suspect was SSI at most, probably bit-serial or digit-serial or some such. I poked around inside it. By the last I recall of it, it probably wasn't good for anything but harvesting parts, like the Nixies and the keyboard, from. I'm not sure whether I regret meddling with it. I have little doubt I broke it, but I'm not sure what I learned in the process wasn't worth it, though it's been long enough I'm not sure what that covers. I do regret losing the remaining pieces; if nothing else, I'd like to have those display tubes. But, last time I went looking for the remnants, I couldn't find any of them, and that was at least a decade ago, so it's likely in a landfill somewhere. I do have some faint hope it's in the hands of someone who appreciates it.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Oct 12 21:58:36 2012 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:58:36 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121013025836.GA5461@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Liam Proven [121012 17:15]: > On 12 October 2012 22:01, geneb wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > > > >> > >> In this case, actually, I think it's a sign that those who favour > >> top-posting are clinging on to poor-quality MUAs when they should > >> update to something better. > > > > ...like Alpine. :) > > Whatever floats your boat. > > I hear Mutt is pretty good, but I'm decadent and like a GUI for most things. Mutt is excellent and extremely flexible and powerful. Todd From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Oct 12 22:24:10 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:24:10 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:26:41 -0500 (CDT) > From: Tothwolf > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >> From: Fred Cisin >> >>> "'e-mail' is bottom posting, plain text, poor spellinq, and >>> insufficient trimming of the old crap, which is set off by chevrons. >>> 'email' is top posting, colors, > > > >> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new >> and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >> >>>>>s. > > I think this reply deserves a screenshot. > > http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) > com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png ----- Reply: Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. m From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 12 23:01:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 21:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <507868BF.7020703@att.net> References: <1350025206.91018.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5077CA3C.805@jwsss.com> <20121012092938.G94912@shell.lmi.net> <50784F5E.70902@vaxen.net> <507868BF.7020703@att.net> Message-ID: <20121012204202.B10221@shell.lmi.net> > >> with dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish, On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > "yodelling jellyfish".....? need more data.... google was NOT helpful I've noticed that. It does not seem to have yet appeared in anything that Google has indexed! Nevertheless, I have heard several old farts (who do NOT know each other, but obviously have some associates in common), who have used "dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish" as a phrase to ridicule superfluous "decoration" of text. I can imagine the dancing kangaroos, but I have no idea what a yod3elling jellyfish looks or sounds like! It is certainly not the first, nor only phrase that I've heard that I can't find in Google. For example, at GSFC 45 years ago, there were frequent references to "Friden Waltz and Marchand March", which were specific arithmetic calculations that you could start and they would run for a long, extended, and noisy time. "so you can close the door of your office and take a nap, and managers will hear that you are hard at work". But can anybody identify those specific calculations? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Oct 13 00:51:33 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: <593A5161FEE5465DB571668D9C606628@vl420mt> Message-ID: <1350107493.91283.YahooMailNeo@web120401.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: MikeS > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012 2:57 AM > Subject: Re: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > ----- Original Message ----- >>? Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:00:06 -0700 (PDT) >>? From: Tom Sparks > > .. lots of trimmage... > >>? I do bash: >>? Apple fanboys: the products they worship are overpriced sh*t >>? MS windows fanboys: think there stuff is the best thing since sliced bread >>? I have be a member of both groups, >>? I have seen the light (and no I am not a linux/ubuntu fanboy[1]) >>? I am a quad-platform user (ubuntu/linux/android, amigaOS, MS DOS[2], >>? Windows) > > I have to ask: Why? What makes it worth the time you spend on it? to show people there are other options in software/hardware, for me personally to expand my knowledge > What purpose does it serve except to expose your bigotry? I am trying to remove my bigotry thinking, but its hard when you have other bigotry thinkers around > > As it happens, I don't think I've ever actually run across anyone who > thinks > MS stuff is the best thing since sliced bread, I have not seen them in-person in the real world, ether (I hope) > but there's no shortage of > *nix users who believe their stuff is... I have half-a-foot in this camp while I wait for something better..... Currently ubuntu dose the job I use it for >>? PS: why cant you scroll down to the bottom of the message and type there? > > I think if you put on your glasses and/or improved your reading skills > somewhat you'd see that I did exactly that (although I happen to think > it's > a pointless and cumbersome relic of the golden days of Usenet glory...) > I think, for some of us it's a hard habit to break and they would like other to follow the same Netiquette rules > And why can't you learn the difference between 'there' and > 'their' and how > to use an apostrophe? > ;-D I'm all ways getting them confused :( > >>? [1] I do have some ubuntu fanboy aspects to me, but its only to sate there >>? is alternative operating system that dose not cost an arm and a leg >>? tom > > More precious irony ;-) > > m? tom > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 13 01:26:24 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 02:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210130626.CAA03185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where >>> the new and quoted text are different colours instead of >>> ever-longer lines of >>>>>s. >> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. [...] > Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. In context, I think that was a disagreement. It was not explicit in the text, but I think the context was sufficiently compelling that it's fair to read into the "clarity of..different colours" text above that the colour in question was supposed to be encoded into the on-the-wire form of the email. And, based on that reading, and on the way the screenshot in question shows a coloured display of quotes from a list message that most certainly did not have anything like colours in the on-the-list form of the message, that the reply was pointing out that coloured display of quoted text can be provided as a user-interface option without needing to affect the encoded-for-transport representation of the message at all. This then means that the "I prefer colours" argument has little-to-no relevance to a discussion of how to format quotes in messages - and, indeed, is an argument in favour of standard >-marked quoting, because it lends itself particularly well to such automated treatment (including other forms of display for those who would rather have something other than colours). This is not to say that >-style quoting needs to be what the mail-sending user sees, of course. Just that it needs to be what's put on the wire. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Oct 13 02:59:21 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 08:59:21 +0100 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 Message-ID: <683yrw1a1lwtu9rxc1efyp54.1350115161740@email.android.com> Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their initial conservation, so this is something I can check, though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. Are you looking for the compiler, information about its historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? --Colin SPC wrote: >Hello. > >Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the >software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and instructive (I'm >using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). > >Now I should like to go one step beyond. > >I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if >exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the >Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the rights of >this software.. > >-- >Gracias | Regards > >Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations >-- >Sergio Pedraja > >twitter: @sergio_pedraja >----- >No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo > > From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 13 03:33:53 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 10:33:53 +0200 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 In-Reply-To: <683yrw1a1lwtu9rxc1efyp54.1350115161740@email.android.com> References: <683yrw1a1lwtu9rxc1efyp54.1350115161740@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hello, Colin. First of all, thanks for your quick answer. In this stage I am looking for the compiler. At present exists some valuables 709x emulators, operatives and maintained. With them you can run a couple of Operating Systems/Monitors (IBSYS and CTSS) plus some compilers (Fortran, Cobol, and others). And exists documentation in Bitsavers for all these items. >From the perspective of a professional of computing, user of Fortran and devote of History as myself, the effort did in relation with all these items during the last years is invaluable. The access of Watfor binaries to run them inside these emulators, together with the access to the documentation related with the history of Watfor from the website of the UK's national Museum of Computing would be a great project in relation with the History of Computing, and probably it would demand some attention from part of the scientific community. Regards Sergio 2012/10/13 Colin Eby : > Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their initial conservation, so this is something I can check, though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. > > Are you looking for the compiler, information about its historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? > > --Colin > > SPC wrote: > >>Hello. >> >>Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the >>software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and instructive (I'm >>using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). >> >>Now I should like to go one step beyond. >> >>I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if >>exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the >>Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the rights of >>this software.. >> >>-- >>Gracias | Regards >> >>Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations >>-- >>Sergio Pedraja >> >>twitter: @sergio_pedraja >>----- >>No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo >> >> > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Oct 13 03:43:40 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 10:43:40 +0200 Subject: HP65 keyboard repair ? Message-ID: <507929BC.3030002@bluewin.ch> So the HP65 that is on my desk needs repair : - the gummy wheel thing is reasonably easy, - I will be able to fix the charger / power supply issue ( doesn't run from a good battery, does run from charger ) - but is there any update on possible solutions for those broken keysprings ? The '5' and '.' are basically gone... Jos From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 04:14:28 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:14:28 +0200 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507FBC59-F36D-4F84-8D18-514802BE62E1@gmail.com> On 13 okt. 2012, at 00:01, Liam Proven wrote: > iPhone owners /do/ have a choice. Indeed. My iPhone quotes just fine. Admittedly, it takes a bit of editing, but let's not pretend that it would be unreasonable to expect members of lists such as this one to master the tools at their disposal. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 13 04:27:24 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 11:27:24 +0200 Subject: HP65 keyboard repair ? In-Reply-To: <507929BC.3030002@bluewin.ch> References: <507929BC.3030002@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <067514F6-8A55-4DC7-8941-3790826AC94B@xs4all.nl> Jos, Cleaning and rinsing the keyboard and replacing the plastic sheet between the keys does in most cases the trick. If that doesn't work you neef to replace the sheet metal of the key, which isn't easy. But i have a spare hp45 keyboard which you can have to experiment with. The power issue is problably caused by the vontact strip at the power connector, cleaning and a little bending will fix it. -Rik Op 13 okt. 2012 om 10:43 heeft Jos Dreesen het volgende geschreven: > > So the HP65 that is on my desk needs repair : > > - the gummy wheel thing is reasonably easy, > - I will be able to fix the charger / power supply issue ( doesn't run from a good battery, does run from charger ) > - but is there any update on possible solutions for those broken keysprings ? The '5' and '.' are basically gone... > > Jos > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 04:49:44 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 10:49:44 +0100 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 In-Reply-To: <683yrw1a1lwtu9rxc1efyp54.1350115161740@email.android.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby > Sent: 13 October 2012 08:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WATFOR for IBM 7040 > > > Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing > Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 > And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to > other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's > National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their > initial conservation, so this is something I can check, > though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly > uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. > > Are you looking for the compiler, information about its > historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? > > --Colin > I didn't see anything that said "Watfor" on it when I carried the tapes, cards and Manuals from Nobby's loft. From what I could see they only every used the IBM fortran compilers. You might try the folks on the e-mails here:- http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/permission-to-includ e-licensed-programs/forthewaterloocompilersprologcprologwwatbolwatfivandwbas ic but I don't think Waterloo have any thing archived... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > SPC wrote: > > >Hello. > > > >Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the > >software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and > instructive (I'm > >using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). > > > >Now I should like to go one step beyond. > > > >I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if > >exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the > >Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the > rights of this > >software.. > > > >-- > >Gracias | Regards > > > >Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations > >-- > >Sergio Pedraja > > > >twitter: @sergio_pedraja > >----- > >No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo > > > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 13 09:26:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 07:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new >> and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >> >>>>>s. > > I think this reply deserves a screenshot. > > http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) > com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png > FYI, 2.02 is the current release version. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 13 12:30:12 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:30:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: <201210130626.CAA03185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201210130626.CAA03185@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >>> >>>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the >>>> new and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer >>>> lines of >>>>>s. > >>> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. [...] > >> Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. > > In context, I think that was a disagreement. > > It was not explicit in the text, but I think the context was > sufficiently compelling that it's fair to read into the "clarity > of..different colours" text above that the colour in question was > supposed to be encoded into the on-the-wire form of the email. You are correct. It was a disagreement, and for the reasons you stated. > And, based on that reading, and on the way the screenshot in question > shows a coloured display of quotes from a list message that most > certainly did not have anything like colours in the on-the-list form of > the message, that the reply was pointing out that coloured display of > quoted text can be provided as a user-interface option without needing > to affect the encoded-for-transport representation of the message at > all. Exactly. The syntax highlighting is independent of the message and can be disabled if I wish. > This then means that the "I prefer colours" argument has little-to-no > relevance to a discussion of how to format quotes in messages - and, > indeed, is an argument in favour of standard >-marked quoting, because > it lends itself particularly well to such automated treatment (including > other forms of display for those who would rather have something other > than colours). I've tried Alpine both with and without the syntax highlighting and found the highlighting did allow for faster message reading because it made it slightly easier to follow complex threads. That said, I used Pine for decades without syntax highlighting, so I'm also watching for standard '>' quoting as one of the visual cues, so I can still use Pine or Alpine without highlighting without any trouble. > This is not to say that >-style quoting needs to be what the > mail-sending user sees, of course. Just that it needs to be what's put > on the wire. I also use Thunderbird, which has a different way of displaying quoted text. Thunderbird /still/ makes internal use of '>' quoting, but just doesn't display them. While Thunderbird suits my needs for some tasks and is easier to work with for certain stuff, its user interface and "fluff" tends to get in my way when dealing with bulk listserv traffic, which is why I'm also using Alpine. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 13 12:47:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:47:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >> >>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the >>> new and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines >>> of >>>>>s. >> >> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. >> >> http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png > > FYI, 2.02 is the current release version. You mean re-alpine? http://re-alpine.sourceforge.net/ They've not yet pushed re-alpine 2.02 for debian-stable so this machine is still running UW Alpine 2.00. http://launchpad.net/debian/+source/alpine/+changelog http://www.washington.edu/alpine/ I suspect re-alpine won't be pushed out for squeeze so unless I do a custom build from source or install the version from the testing or unstable branches that changeover will most likely happen during the squeeze->wheezy transition once wheezy finally supersedes squeeze in debian-stable. Since this machine only handles email, I just haven't yet felt the need to rebuild Alpine from source. Until I finally rebuilt this machine this year, it was still running UW Pine 4.64. http://www.washington.edu/pine/ From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 14:24:11 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 20:24:11 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 Message-ID: I just collected a new PC carcase this morning which was advertised on my local Freegle group (i.e., Freecycle by another name) last night. Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme 6850, 3GHz, 8GB DDR2 RAM. I fitted my own disks and graphics card. Apparently, that is the level of specification some people are throwing out now. Quite remarkable. It's jolly nice and very fast, though! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 13 14:43:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:43:31 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 03:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I just collected a new PC carcase this morning which was advertised on > my local Freegle group (i.e., Freecycle by another name) last night. > > Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme 6850, 3GHz, 8GB DDR2 RAM. I fitted my own > disks and graphics card. > > Apparently, that is the level of specification some people are > throwing out now. Quite remarkable. It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put in the trash. Morons. Their stupidity is your gain, good score! > It's jolly nice and very fast, though! I bet! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 13 14:44:56 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:44:56 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5079C4B8.4070509@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/12 3:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > I just collected a new PC carcase this morning which was advertised on > my local Freegle group (i.e., Freecycle by another name) last night. > > Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme 6850, 3GHz, 8GB DDR2 RAM. I fitted my own > disks and graphics card. > > Apparently, that is the level of specification some people are > throwing out now. Quite remarkable. > > It's jolly nice and very fast, though! > Yesterday I heard somebody on this list scored an Xserve G5 and 5TB Xserve RAID being junked. If you've ever used this kind of gear ... that's kind of a nice deal. :) --Toby From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 13 14:51:57 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:51:57 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put > in the trash. > > Morons. > > Their stupidity is your gain, good score! > >> It's jolly nice and very fast, though! > > I bet! > > -Dave I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? Some people would rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell it when they are done with it. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 13 14:54:10 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:54:10 -0700 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079C4B8.4070509@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C4B8.4070509@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: At 3:44 PM -0400 10/13/12, Toby Thain wrote: >Yesterday I heard somebody on this list scored an Xserve G5 and 5TB >Xserve RAID being junked. If you've ever used this kind of gear ... >that's kind of a nice deal. :) > >--Toby It might be nice, but keep in mind how old that is, and I hear drives are getting harder to source. Great for hobbyists, not so great for businesses. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 13 15:09:01 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:09:01 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/12 3:51 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > > >> It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put >> in the trash. >> >> Morons. >> >> Their stupidity is your gain, good score! >> >>> It's jolly nice and very fast, though! >> >> I bet! >> >> -Dave > > I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and > needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? Some people would > rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something > special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell > it when they are done with it. > My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they stop to think, neither is most people's. It's the not-thinking part that is offensive. (And don't get me started on built-in obsolescence and the universality of throw-away-don't-repair culture.) --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 13 15:11:34 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:11:34 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C4B8.4070509@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5079CAF6.8030600@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/12 3:54 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:44 PM -0400 10/13/12, Toby Thain wrote: >> Yesterday I heard somebody on this list scored an Xserve G5 and 5TB >> Xserve RAID being junked. If you've ever used this kind of gear ... >> that's kind of a nice deal. :) >> >> --Toby > > It might be nice, but keep in mind how old that is, and I hear drives > are getting harder to source. Great for hobbyists, not so great for > businesses. That's... old? Now you make me feel old. I guess I'm soon due for the dumpster... Also, aren't drives supposed to be replaceable? (How hard did Apple try to prevent generic drives being used?) --T > > Zane > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 13 15:10:48 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:10:48 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 02:26:24 -0400 (EDT) > From: Mouse >>>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where >>>> the new and quoted text are different colours instead of >>>> ever-longer lines of >>>>>s. > >>> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. [...] > >> Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. > > In context, I think that was a disagreement. > ----- Reply: Almost certainly, since exchanges in this sort of thread are almost always argumentative; rather than sprinkle smileys throughout my posts I prefer to let the reader decide whether I'm being ironic or not. I mentally append smileys to most posts in a thread like this, on the assumption that intelligent men (women presumably having better things to do) would not spend time and energy every few months or so *seriously* arguing *once again* about where to place an e-mail reply; the humour really becomes apparent when you show a thread like this to a 'normal' person... But I wasn't saying anything about how, when or where it's done to disagree with anyway, merely stating that IMO using colour for clarity when possible and appropriate doesn't necessarily belong in the same category as Fred's wallpaper, dancing kangaroos or yodelling jellyfish; it's just one more often useful option that's come along since the text-only monochrome screens that many of us started with and seem to want to hang on to (at least in this context). m From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 13 15:14:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:14:21 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 03:51 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put >> in the trash. >> >> Morons. >> >> Their stupidity is your gain, good score! >> >>> It's jolly nice and very fast, though! > > I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and > needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? No, not at all! [rolls eyes] > Some people would > rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something > special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell > it when they are done with it. So how many people who are such "power users", i.e., somehow NEED to "upgrade" to something faster, for whom a 3GHz C2D is "too slow", work in environments where things are given away via FreeCycle? I'm sure it happens, but in general, that doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" (so maybe I can "use the parts", heh) at least monthly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 13 15:15:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:15:11 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 04:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and >> needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? Some people would >> rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something >> special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell >> it when they are done with it. > > My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they > stop to think, neither is most people's. Agreed 100%. But is a 3GHz C2D really eight years old now? > It's the not-thinking part that is offensive. (And don't get me started > on built-in obsolescence and the universality of throw-away-don't-repair > culture.) Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 13 15:41:09 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:41:09 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > On 10/13/2012 03:51 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>> It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put >>> in the trash. >>> >>> Morons. >>> >>> Their stupidity is your gain, good score! >>> >>>> It's jolly nice and very fast, though! >> >> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and >> needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? > > No, not at all! [rolls eyes] > >> Some people would >> rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something >> special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell >> it when they are done with it. > > So how many people who are such "power users", i.e., somehow NEED to > "upgrade" to something faster, for whom a 3GHz C2D is "too slow", work in > environments where things are given away via FreeCycle? I'm sure it > happens, but in general, that doesn't make much sense. > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" (so > maybe I can "use the parts", heh) at least monthly. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA The clueless who get the malware tend to pay the local part time tech kid $50 to wipe the system and start over or sell it to those same techs so they can buy a new machine. It could have been a gamer or home graphics artists that wanted a newer system or one that had a higher RAM ceiling. Generally people who take the HD and video card out are not the usual grandma with a virus issue. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 13 15:44:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <201210132044.QAA05404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living > and needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? A few. Very few. I've run into a whole lot who incorrectly _think_ they need to "upgrade" every few years, though. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 13 15:45:33 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:45:33 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 >> My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they >> stop to think, neither is most people's. Plenty of rich professionals ditch machines if they are no longer under warrenty (especially if they cannot service them or don't want to). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 13 15:48:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:48:31 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 04:41 PM, TeoZ wrote: >>>> Their stupidity is your gain, good score! >>>> >>>>> It's jolly nice and very fast, though! >>> >>> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and >>> needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? >> >> No, not at all! [rolls eyes] >> >>> Some people would >>> rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something >>> special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell >>> it when they are done with it. >> >> So how many people who are such "power users", i.e., somehow NEED to >> "upgrade" to something faster, for whom a 3GHz C2D is "too slow", work >> in environments where things are given away via FreeCycle? I'm sure >> it happens, but in general, that doesn't make much sense. >> >> On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" >> (so maybe I can "use the parts", heh) at least monthly. > > The clueless who get the malware tend to pay the local part time tech > kid $50 to wipe the system and start over or sell it to those same techs > so they can buy a new machine. > > It could have been a gamer or home graphics artists that wanted a newer > system or one that had a higher RAM ceiling. Generally people who take > the HD and video card out are not the usual grandma with a virus issue. Well ok, I can see that scenario. I still have a tough time wrapping my brain around the concept that people sitting on their asses playing video games requires (and consumes) orders of magnitude more processing power than I do while running mathematically-intensive electronic circuit simulations and designing industrial control systems. There's something just so very wrong about that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 13 15:49:39 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:49:39 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5079D3E3.3080109@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/12 4:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/13/2012 04:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living and >>> needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? Some people would >>> rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was something >>> special as well) and give a machine away then recycle it or try to sell >>> it when they are done with it. >> >> My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they >> stop to think, neither is most people's. > > Agreed 100%. > > But is a 3GHz C2D really eight years old now? No - and a sign of how absurd things have become. --T > >> It's the not-thinking part that is offensive. (And don't get me started >> on built-in obsolescence and the universality of throw-away-don't-repair >> culture.) > > Yep. > > -Dave > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 15:59:05 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:59:05 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <64D894A8FBEB44BAB77A758594BC6941@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 13 October 2012 21:15 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > > > On 10/13/2012 04:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living > >> and needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? > Some people > >> would rather just keep their data drive (maybe the video card was > >> something special as well) and give a machine away then > recycle it or > >> try to sell it when they are done with it. > > > > My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if > > they stop to think, neither is most people's. > > Agreed 100%. > > But is a 3GHz C2D really eight years old now? > If it was a first issue its 6 years old...... > > It's the not-thinking part that is offensive. (And don't get me > > started on built-in obsolescence and the universality of > > throw-away-don't-repair > > culture.) > I spent a lot of time trying to debug mine when it went faulty, still not sure if it was the MBO or the CPU but after lots of messing eventually bought a new I5 4-core 3GHz. Can't easily use any of the old stuff as the new one is DDR3 RAM, SATA disk interface and PCI-E X1 card slots. I actually virtualized the old machine and bought some PCI-Express cards for Serial and Printer interfaces. I would still rather like a SCSI card for testing Hercules and real tape drives. Oddly enough I am typing this on an old(ish) IBM T-41 laptop which, like the proverbial broom that has had five heads and three shafts, has had most items replaced, apart from the CPU and Display. The Mother Board has been replaced twice, it has a keyboard from a T43 after the original got filled with water on a canal trip, the Hard Drive has been upgraded at least twice (I must put the larger one back I used to test Windows/7) and the RAM has been swapped. I have tried a range of CD and DVD drives and it still won't read DVD-R without an external drive. Oh and I think I am on the third battery but those are now available pretty cheaply... > Yep. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > Dave G4UGM Mildly Jet Lagged after a flying back to the UK from Salt Lake City so may not be talking total sense.... From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Oct 13 16:17:28 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 23:17:28 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5079DA68.4010007@update.uu.se> On 10/13/2012 09:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put > in the trash. > > Morons. > > Their stupidity is your gain, good score! > Or, you know, bought a laptop and found no need for the big ol' beige box. /P From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Oct 13 16:21:48 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 23:21:48 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> On 10/13/2012 10:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well ok, I can see that scenario. > > I still have a tough time wrapping my brain around the concept that > people sitting on their asses playing video games requires (and > consumes) orders of magnitude more processing power than I do while > running mathematically-intensive electronic circuit simulations and > designing industrial control systems. There's something just so very > wrong about that. > > -Dave > Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the bells and whistles. /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 15:24:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: DMC11 at Ebay In-Reply-To: from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans=2DUlrich_H=F6lscher?=" at Oct 3, 12 01:42:10 pm Message-ID: > > Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? Not me, but... > > I'd just like to know who else (besides me of course) is interested in > that very special old DDCMP communication adapter. I cannot imagine > that any DMCs are still in productive use today, so there's probably > another collector out there somewhere ... I was given a reasonable number of DMC11s and DMR11s along with a single KMC11 (which has RAM, rather than ROM for the control store), the printsets, cables, etc. I've never tried to do anything with them, but someday I intnded to investigate them. So any (low-level) information which is not 'obvious' from the prints, etc would be interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 15:52:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:52:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121005091650.A68250@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 5, 12 09:24:14 am Message-ID: > The source/vintage makes tham all probably "1.2M" (anybody who wants to > argue the impreciseness of that designation can come up with a CONCISE > (not paragraph long) and unambiguous name for that type of drive) 5.25", 80 cylinder, 2 head, 360rpm, 500kbps data rate in MFM mode :-) But I wil lagree that '1.2M' is common usage, and pretty unambiguous. Similarly 1.44M for the 500kbps MFM data rate 3.5" drive (I do object to a 'megabyte' being 10^3*2^10 bytes, but it's common usage...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 16:07:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:07:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <506F938F.3040005@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 5, 12 10:12:31 pm Message-ID: > Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE > those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some, > you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's > just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. I have a few in devices designed ot use them : HP9815 calculator (16 digit Panaplex), Sumlock Compucorp 324 calculator (ditto) and HP59304 'remote display' (12 digit Panaplex). The last takes in ASCII digits and 'E' over an HPIB interface and displays them on the Panaplex, it was designed to be used as a data diaply on HPIB systems. And it doesn't seem to sell for ridiculous amounts of money. Yearsd ago I got some loose 16 dgiit (same as in the above devices) and 9 digit (rather taller digits) Panaplex displays. I stil lahve them. Alas they'd run out of 12 digit ones, or I'd haev bought soem of those too. Of course I didn;'t know at the time I was goign to get devices for which these would be useful spares, but that's the way of computer collecting. You buy bits when you can and only later find a use for them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 16:11:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:11:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <1349496663.36660.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Oct 5, 12 09:11:03 pm Message-ID: > > > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give > disk back. Do I have to take it apart? I hope I am not statign the obvious, but if you have the 'standard' drives (and you pretty much have to have), you put the disk in and then press the button alongside the disk. This locks the disk in place, enables the heads to load, etc. To get hte disk out, you press the button again. If that doesn't work, you have to dismantle the machine, take the drives out. Tkak the loading mechansim apart and clan off the gungned-up grease. I cna talk you through it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 16:23:03 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:23:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: strange remark about your collection? In-Reply-To: <50705CF1.4060707@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 6, 12 11:31:45 am Message-ID: > It's a shame that there's not much else beyond a clock that lends itself > well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a postcard... numeric-only calcualtor? > > Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too. > > To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking some > drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so I > assume the green-blue type aren't much different. TGhey are _totally_ different. The Panaplex type are neon discharge units. You apply a high votlag e (around 150-200V) with a suitable limiting resisotr between the naonne and cathode, the cathode then effecveily glows. that's the simple version, in practice you sequenct the anodes, conenting each oen to HT+ i nturn (to selet each digit i nturn) and effectively ground the approriate cathodes (segmetns) to illuminate them. The VF displays are more like directly eacted triode valves and work at much lower votlages, around 30V. They are vacuum devices ,no gas to ionise. There's a filmanet across the fornt of the device, you power this by about 3V _AC_. If you use DC, the difference in votlage between the ends of the filmnet will mean some digits are brighter than others. For each digit there's a cotnrol grid. You use this to enable/disable each digit in turn. Often, it's run with+ve bias (unlike most valves) to acct as ann accellerators when the digit is enables. The segments are the anods, adn are phosphor-coated. Whe na digit is eelcted, you connect +30V (wet the centre tap of the AC supply to the filament) to those anodes you want ot glow. > > There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store which keeps tempting me, > as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with custom > VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off behind a > bezel and just expose the numeric part). Most VCRs did, indeed, use VF displays. It apperas some DVD recorders still do (!). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 13 16:35:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 17:35:40 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 05:21 PM, Pontus wrote: >> Well ok, I can see that scenario. >> >> I still have a tough time wrapping my brain around the concept that >> people sitting on their asses playing video games requires (and >> consumes) orders of magnitude more processing power than I do while >> running mathematically-intensive electronic circuit simulations and >> designing industrial control systems. There's something just so very >> wrong about that. > > Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. > Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the > bells and whistles. Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood is the primary driver of computer performance today. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 13 16:42:14 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 14:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits Message-ID: Since I ran out of P112 kits last year, I've been asked multiple times to produce more. The critical thing in doing this is financing the project. So, I've set up a Kickstarter.com project to get things going. There are some differences in the kits this time round. The big one is that I'm no longer offering complete kits. Sorting thousands of tiny parts into ziplock bags was a big hassle. Instead the kit will contain a PCB with surface-mount parts soldered on, a boot ROM, serial port pigtails, and two CDs of documentation and software. I have prepared a shared project on Mouser for most of the remaining parts. The serial chips are obtained from Digikey. This way you can just de-select what you already have, or order something different -- like if you want machined sockets instead of dual-wipes. Go to http://661.org/p112 to read about the P112 and find the link to Kickstarter. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Oct 13 17:02:38 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:02:38 -0700 Subject: Crossed signals? Message-ID: <5079E4FE.1020000@gmail.com> I seem to be getting a lot of posts in my cctalk inbox coming from what appears to be the Curmudgeons Who Are Pretty Sure They're Smarter Than Everyone Else mailing list as of late -- has anyone else been seeing this, or is there something wrong with my mail filter? - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 13 17:17:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121013150535.J31315@shell.lmi.net> > > The source/vintage makes tham all probably "1.2M" (anybody who wants to > > argue the impreciseness of that designation can come up with a CONCISE > > (not paragraph long) and unambiguous name for that type of drive) On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > 5.25", 80 cylinder, 2 head, 360rpm, 500kbps data rate in MFM mode :-) . . . "soft-sectores", "IBM/WD style sector structure", "96TPI (as opposed to 100tpi)", . . . That seems to be as concise as we can get when dexcribing it, and therefore, we NAME it. "Type 1", 0, 2, 3, 4, 7 is way too arbitrary and obscure. > But I wil lagree that '1.2M' is common usage, and pretty unambiguous. > Similarly 1.44M for the 500kbps MFM data rate 3.5" drive (I do object to > a 'megabyte' being 10^3*2^10 bytes, but it's common usage...) "common MIS-usage" I over-react to that particular idiocy. For me, that is worse than DB9 or 56K-baud. But, I find that when I call them "1.4M", nobody, even in the general public seems to have difficulty understanding! At 1.40625 MB, "1.4M" is close enough. In addition, it is the same number of characters as 160K, 180K, 320K, 360K, 720K, 1.2M, and 2.8M which is convenient for my personal data storage. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 13 17:21:05 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121013151834.W31315@shell.lmi.net> > > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give > > disk back. Do I have to take it apart? > > I hope I am not statign the obvious, but if you have the 'standard' some drives have software controlled "eject", and can get ornery about relinquishing the disk if the software is out of whack. SOME of those (including many CD-ROM drives) have a tiny hole for a paper-clip over-ride. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Oct 13 17:25:47 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:25:47 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <5079EA6B.6080005@telegraphics.com.au> On 13/10/12 5:21 PM, Pontus wrote: > On 10/13/2012 10:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Well ok, I can see that scenario. >> >> I still have a tough time wrapping my brain around the concept that >> people sitting on their asses playing video games requires (and >> consumes) orders of magnitude more processing power than I do while >> running mathematically-intensive electronic circuit simulations and >> designing industrial control systems. There's something just so very >> wrong about that. >> >> -Dave >> > > Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. > Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the > bells and whistles. A P4 with a newer video card (GF 8800 GT say) can handle a high level of graphics in say Crysis 2 or Mass Effect 2 (to name two that i have thoroughly tested). Even in gaming, upgrade-itis is excessive. --Toby > > /P > From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 13 17:45:10 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:45:10 -0700 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: from "Rick Bensene" at Sep 30, 12 09:24:33 pm Message-ID: Tony D. wrote, in response to a message about the Wang 100-series calculators that I wrote a while back > > Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the remains of one > of those somewhere :-( I understand. We all make mistakes, especially when we are younger. I made my share of mistakes back in the day too...though it's not like the days of mistakes are gone despite my age and supposed wisdom :-) These are extremely rare machines today. They were kind of a lost machine from the get-go -- the 100-series was Wang's attempt at making a calculator that was cheaper than the 700-series calculators that were Wang's top-end machines, with amazing capabilities and speed. The 100-series was a huge compromise, using a serial bit-by-bit ALU, the "cheap" diode (slow) ROM versus the (fast) wire-rope ROM of the 700-series, and keycode-encoded programs for advanced math operations (trig & statistics) versus microcoded routines on the 700-series. By the time the 100-series machines made it to market, the technology used in them had been eclipsed by solid-state ROM, and higher-levels of TTL integration, pretty much making them dead-ends. They never sold well, and planned improvements, like an external learn-mode programmer and other peripherals were canceled. > > I got it years ago, and used the keyboard, case, and PSU as part of my first > homebrew machine. I think i have the main PCBs mostly intact still. > I did desolder some of the connectors and maybe the odd IC, though. A worthy use for the parts at the time. No faulting you for building a homebrew machine from it. > > IIRC there were 3 boards in the pile. The bottom 2 were the diode matrix > firmware ROMs, the top one was full of mostly TTL. That's the one. The top board had almost all the logic, and the two bottom boards had the diode ROM matrices. The top board had a mix of TTL and DTL ICs on it, mostly small-scale. > There was another 24 pin > IC (the ROM you mention) and some RAMs (1101a?). The 24-pin IC was part of the microcode sequencer, a mask-programmed TMS 2600 device. The RAMs were indeed 1101A's, either genuine Intel, or second-sourced parts from various IC houses. There are four sockets, of which two are populated for the "base" models with 4 memory registers. The other two sockets were populated for the "extended" models, which had 12 memory registers. > I seem to remember a > couple of smaller PCBs tht fitted on top, display drivers? Yes. The display or printer driver board plugged into a socket on the main board. In the models with Nixie displays, the BCD- to 1-of-10 chip, and display drive transistors were on this board. On the models equipped with the built-in printer, the circuitry to drive the printer (a Seiko drum printer) were on the board. There was a socket on either of these boards that another board could plug into which was the Trig/Statistics ROM board. This board contained some sequencing and addressing logic, along with another mask-programmed TMS 2600 ROM that contained keycode sequences to carry out (rather slowly) trig and some statistics functions. This board was an extra-cost option. See http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang144t.html for more information. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 13 18:08:05 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:08:05 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > On 10/13/2012 05:21 PM, Pontus wrote: > > Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, > time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood > is the primary driver of computer performance today. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA Where have you been, computer games have been driving upgrades since the DOS era on PC and one of the major reasons people purchased computers since the Commodore/Atari days. The funny thing is most gamers today have switched to consoles, PC games sales are nothing like they used to be mostly because of the expense those constant upgrades involved. The bright side is any machine that can run current games at high resolution and full details will probably run any work type application with decent speed as well (unless you really need a pricey 2GB RAM equipped video card for CAD). From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 13 18:08:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079EA6B.6080005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079EA6B.6080005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121013160651.I31315@shell.lmi.net> > Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. > Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the > bells and whistles. GOTTA HAVE at least a Cray T94 for Colossal Cave! From cube1 at charter.net Sat Oct 13 18:19:23 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:19:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5079F6FB.1080504@charter.net> On 10/12/2012 4:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the remains of > one of those somewhere :-( > We all have our stories. For my part, I: 1) Disassembled and gutted an antique tube radio. 2) Didn't recognize an original LINC computer, with LINC tape, keyboard and all, when I saw one and could have bought it for next to nothing. Really stupid - I even recognized the LINC tape as being just that - but figured it had been stuck on some weird set of home-brew flip chip stuff. (I have no idea what happened to it / where it ended up). 3) Disassembled an RS08/RF08 disk/head assembly (on the other hand, it had been tossed into a dumpster, and probably didn't survive it anyway. I did manage to rescue the RS08 and RF08 electronics, backplanes, cards, power supply and all, and I still have the (now presumably useless) platter and a couple of the head assemblies. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 13 18:30:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, TeoZ wrote: > Where have you been, computer games have been driving upgrades since the DOS > era on PC and one of the major reasons people purchased computers since the > Commodore/Atari days. In the EARLY days of the 5150, "BUSINESS" users went with monochrome. Then they came back to "upgrade" to color (to run games, but they would never admit it). To make use of what was there, "256 color accounting" was developed. My publisher (may they rot in pieces) for the early days of XenoCopy reported "numerous complaints" that "Xeno-Copy won't work in color!", because I used white text on a black background. (0x07 and 0x0F). So, I checked the current video mode, (NOT just PRESENCE of CGA or EGA hardware!), and if they were in mode 3, I put COLORED boxes around the "windows" of text V B&W boxes if they were in mode 2 or 7. That solved the "complaints". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From drb at msu.edu Sat Oct 13 18:42:52 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:42:52 -0400 Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables Message-ID: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Folks, Thought I had this covered, but I can't find 'em. Looking for either of the following cables, which are the serial port fanouts for Annex terminal servers. 50-pin centronics at one end, 6 DB25 at the other. Anybody have one or two they'd part with? AX3-CBL-DCE-100 or CM0018008 (DCE variety) AX3-CBL-DTE-100 or CM0018009 (DTE variety, quelle surprise) Thanks, De From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Oct 13 19:11:49 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:11:49 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507A0345.1010507@update.uu.se> On 10/13/2012 11:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, > time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood > is the primary driver of computer performance today. -Dave "Brain-vegetating"?! - When did you last play a game? "Outgrown"!? - Where is the fun in that? "time-wasting"!? - ehm.. well, you got me there... /P From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Oct 13 19:35:54 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 20:35:54 -0400 Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts References: Message-ID: <4D2AAA76F60849A986EEA1DE1CE9168A@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:30:12 -0500 (CDT) > From: Tothwolf > > On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >>>> >>>>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the >>>>> new and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer >>>>> lines of >>>>>s. >> >>>> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. [...] >> >>> Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. >> >> In context, I think that was a disagreement. > > You are correct. It was a disagreement, and for the reasons you stated. > ----- Reply: Sorry that you also missed the irony; I thought it was obvious that I'd probably fall off my chair if you ever agreed with one of my posts ... I was explicitly replying to (and specifically quoting) Fred's post including the use of colour in the email no-nos like yodelling jellyfish etc., and I think that your screenshot actually does make my point (no doubt unintentionally) that colour can be useful (as opposed to the jellyfish). That Mouse and you obviously chose to ignore the explicit (con)text of my post and instead "*read into*" my post that "the colour in question was *supposed to be* encoded into the on-the-wire form of the email" (*s mine) prompted my ironic, "glad you agree". If I receive an email appropriately and tastefully using colour and/or HTML then I prefer it to the limitations of chevrons, plain-text-only, etc.; if it mattered enough to me to justify installing a reader and/or plugin to convert plain incoming mail then I would. But I don't tell anyone how they are "supposed to" format their email; I'm much more interested in the content than whatever format they chose or had to use. If there's an issue that they may be unaware of I'll ask; otherwise if it matters I'll do what's required at my end in order to read it. Conversely, although I bristle a bit at people telling me how I'm *supposed to* format *my* email and with whatever favourite client of theirs I should replace my obviously defective one, I generally go along with whatever prevailing standards are on mail lists like this one, even when I don't agree with them as in the case of the top-posting 'standard'. And yes, I will occasionally register a vote in support of letting people post however they prefer or have to, without chastising them whenever they top-post (especially when they didn't). With clients that hide the quoted text by default why does it even matter? m From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 13 19:43:09 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 17:43:09 -0700 Subject: Fwd: RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals In-Reply-To: <161CD6609B824DB2AB5DE438E5C71C75@G4UGMT41> References: <161CD6609B824DB2AB5DE438E5C71C75@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <507A0A9D.4020507@jwsss.com> Top posted thread. I see no problem with it. BTW is anyone here familiar with the Cisco 2612? It is mentioned below for those who wish to read further. Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:03:25 +0100 From: Dave Reply-To: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com To: Rob, Which cable do you need. The token ring DB-9 -> RJ45 media filter to go from the 3174 to the 8226? There are some here on E-bay:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/390474238769 Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum -----Original Message----- *From:* H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Bob Brown *Sent:* 13 October 2012 20:17 *To:* 'H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com' *Subject:* RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals Where can I either find this cable or a pinout? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace *From:*H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Harold Bell *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2012 12:53 PM *To:* H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals I use a Cisco 2612 in my setup. There needs to be a Token Ring concentrator between the 3174 and the Cisco. I use an IBM 8226-001 from ebay. I forget what I paid but it could not have been over $40 I don't think. The 3174 Token Ring output connector is a 9 pin D-sub like a serial port and I use a small converter that has a 9 pin D-sub connector and an RJ-45 socket. It is a generic item that you have to open up and connect the two connectors however you want for your application. The connection diagram was on the internet at one time. I got this at a local hobby electronnics store that burned about a year ago and I have no idea where to order such a thing. Using standard ethernet cables to go from the 3174/converter to the concentrator to the Cisco is not the perfect way but it works if the cables are kept as short as possible so the impedance mis-match is not to bad. Good luck. Buddy ------------------------------------------------------------------------ *From:*Bob Brown *To:* "H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com" *Sent:* Mon, September 17, 2012 1:19:07 PM *Subject:* [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals Is a cisco 2612 what I need to bridge the token ring/Ethernet networks? (it sounds like it comes standard with Ethernet and token ring ports)... Do I need something else also or does it go: Terminal --> 3174 --> cisco 2612 --> Ethernet network --> Hercules? -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of scott Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 8:45 AM To: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Re: Real 3278 won't work with turnkey Bob, I can check with my source on Monday to ensure the card will work in a -51r. Scott On 09/13/2012 12:58 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > How much do you want for the 3174 T/r card (and is it supposed to work with a 51R)? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > ------------------------------------ __._,_.___ __,_._,___ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 13 19:46:14 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:46:14 -0600 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507A0345.1010507@update.uu.se> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <507A0345.1010507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <507A0B56.4090304@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/13/2012 6:11 PM, Pontus wrote: > On 10/13/2012 11:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, >> time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood >> is the primary driver of computer performance today. -Dave > > "Brain-vegetating"?! - When did you last play a game? > "Outgrown"!? - Where is the fun in that? > "time-wasting"!? - ehm.. well, you got me there... Umm Time wasted trying to figure out what the develpers used since your system crashes.. > /P > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 13 20:09:20 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 18:09:20 -0700 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507A10C0.2090607@jwsss.com> On 10/13/2012 1:45 PM, TeoZ wrote: > >>> My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if >>> they >>> stop to think, neither is most people's. > > Plenty of rich professionals ditch machines if they are no longer > under warrenty (especially if they cannot service them or don't want to). > My accountant has been threatened for two years to upgrade to Windows 7, or he will be denied support for Quickbooks and most of the tax prep programs. I suspect many other people who use packages for mechanical engineering, and other professionals are forced into upgrades. Unlike us, a lot of people are not that capable of going and getting an "oem" or "system builder" copy of windows 7 w/o spending a fortune needlessly and assessing the capability of even a system like the ones described and getting it upgraded on the same hardware. I've got my friend accountant on vmware and he runs both win7 and win/xp jim From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 13 21:07:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 19:07:40 -0700 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507A10C0.2090607@jwsss.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> <507A10C0.2090607@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <507A1E6C.50600@sydex.com> Well, I've just finished repairing a PS/2-interface roller mouse. Use had deteriorated the roller supports so much that it was impossible to spin the roller feature. I glued and shaped a piece of an old credit card to the worn supports. The mouse works fine now. I don't use that particular mouse much, but I think it's a landmark for me to actually wear one out. (Mouse was purchased new in 2001) --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 13 21:32:34 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:32:34 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? Message-ID: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> Just curious, did anyone ever do a Unibus->IDE, etc... anything to interface a modern drive to unibus? I see from googling that Brad Parker had an excellent concept & initial design. Basically a unibus controller that could impersonate several different controllers & disks... Anyone know if this project (or a similar one) ever was completed? I'd be most interested in keeping the RL02 on the 11/45, but would love to have something larger for builds that could be easily removed and thus keep the system "original". J From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 13 22:07:34 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Aracnet) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 20:07:34 -0700 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: What about just using a SCSI adapter? Thought the equivalent to a Webster ESDI controller would be nice. I use SCSI on my /44 as well as my /23+ and /73. The /23 is limited to RL01/02. Sent from my iPad On Oct 13, 2012, at 7:32 PM, Jay West wrote: > Just curious, did anyone ever do a Unibus->IDE, etc... anything to interface a modern drive to unibus? > > I see from googling that Brad Parker had an excellent concept & initial design. Basically a unibus controller that could impersonate several different controllers & disks... Anyone know if this project (or a similar one) ever was completed? I'd be most interested in keeping the RL02 on the 11/45, but would love to have something larger for builds that could be easily removed and thus keep the system "original". > > J > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Oct 13 23:34:51 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Apollo 715t Message-ID: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> I'd forgotten I had this and where I got it from, but I was cleaning out one of my storage units today and found an HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) (picture: http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1695 ). AIUI, this unit can boot both Domain/OS and HP-UX. I have a crate of HP-HIL keyboards from my 9000/350, but the manual indicates they won't work with Domain/OS (and a Domain/OS keyboard won't work with HP-UX). Ostensibly there is a switch on this unit which says what it's configured for, but I can't find it in the manual or obviously on the exterior of the unit. Any suggestions? I haven't fired it up yet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TV is chewing gum for the eyes. -- Frank Lloyd Wright ---------------------- From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 14 01:21:03 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 23:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210132044.QAA05404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201210132044.QAA05404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1350195663.81160.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mouse > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012 4:44 AM > Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > >> I guess you never ran into anyone who uses a computer for a living >> and needs to upgrade every few years to something faster? > > A few.? Very few. > > I've run into a whole lot who incorrectly _think_ they need to > "upgrade" every few years, though. I've been downgrading ever few years 2Ghz desktop 1.6Ghz netbook 800Mhz netbook I have some system slower, but they are classic system witch i've excluded > > /~\ The ASCII??? ??? ??? ??? ? Mouse tom From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 02:28:19 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 00:28:19 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <507A6993.9000403@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 9:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'd forgotten I had this and where I got it from, but I was cleaning out one > of my storage units today and found an HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) (picture: > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1695 > > ). > > AIUI, this unit can boot both Domain/OS and HP-UX. I I think that's one of the nextstep compatible models. It is a lot more fun to play with than hp-ux if you don't find Domain/OS for it. PARISC is on the same cd as SPARC. You may already have it. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 14 02:45:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 00:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <507A6993.9000403@gmail.com> from mc68010 at "Oct 14, 12 00:28:19 am" Message-ID: <201210140745.q9E7jV0n16515138@floodgap.com> > > I'd forgotten I had this and where I got it from, but I was cleaning out one > > of my storage units today and found an HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) (picture: > > > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/1695 > > > > ). > > > > AIUI, this unit can boot both Domain/OS and HP-UX. I > > I think that's one of the nextstep compatible models. It is a lot more > fun to play with than hp-ux if you don't find Domain/OS for it. PARISC > is on the same cd as SPARC. You may already have it. I don't think this is one of the PA-RISC models (it's not an HP 9000). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize. -- Steven Wright ------------------------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 02:55:05 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 00:55:05 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210140745.q9E7jV0n16515138@floodgap.com> References: <201210140745.q9E7jV0n16515138@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <507A6FD9.3070805@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 12:45 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> SPARC. You may already have it. > I don't think this is one of the PA-RISC models (it's not an HP 9000). > It is actually. It's just a logo thing. It's just a HP9000 http://www.openpa.net/systems/hp-9000_715.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 14 02:55:18 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:55:18 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. The 715 is an entirely different line of machines. The 700-series is PA-RISC based, where the 400-series is m68k based. You can run the original 4.4BSD-Unix releases from the CSRG on a 425t also. (In HP-UX mode with HIL peripherals.) The Domain/OS vs. HPsUX "switch" is a setting in the boot monitor, no hardware switch. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 14 03:41:14 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:41:14 +0100 Subject: DMC11 at Ebay In-Reply-To: References: from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans=2DUlrich_H=F6lscher?=" at Oct 3, 12 01:42:10 pm Message-ID: <00a601cda9e7$ad5fd210$081f7630$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 13 October 2012 21:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DMC11 at Ebay > > > > > Who is bidding for the DMC11 at Ebay? > > Not me, but... > > > > > I'd just like to know who else (besides me of course) is interested in > > that very special old DDCMP communication adapter. I cannot imagine > > that any DMCs are still in productive use today, so there's probably > > another collector out there somewhere ... > > I was given a reasonable number of DMC11s and DMR11s along with a > single > KMC11 (which has RAM, rather than ROM for the control store), the > printsets, cables, etc. I've never tried to do anything with them, but someday > I intnded to investigate them. So any (low-level) information which is not > 'obvious' from the prints, etc would be interesting. > > -tony I have a single DMC11 and when I eventually get my 11/24 running again I want to put it in there. Of course I don't have any cables or a second DMC11, which makes it a bit pointless at the moment! :-) I don't know quite enough about these cards, but I believe you can connect them via synchronous modem, so with the right equipment, and a willing friend, I think it would be possible to get a little bit of DECnet going over these devices. Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 14 03:52:38 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:52:38 -0600 Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20121013234252.75820A5826E at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > Thought I had this covered, but I can't find 'em. Looking for either of > the following cables, which are the serial port fanouts for Annex > terminal servers. 50-pin centronics at one end, 6 DB25 at the other. > Anybody have one or two they'd part with? > > AX3-CBL-DCE-100 or CM0018008 (DCE variety) > AX3-CBL-DTE-100 or CM0018009 (DTE variety, quelle surprise) ebay searches running for years have never turned up the cables alone. I have purchsed some xylogics terminal servers just to get the cables. You can also make your own ut its a bit of a PITA. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 04:32:50 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:32:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: <4D2AAA76F60849A986EEA1DE1CE9168A@vl420mt> References: <4D2AAA76F60849A986EEA1DE1CE9168A@vl420mt> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: > From: Tothwolf >> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >>> >>>> Yup, looks nice; I'm glad you agree. >>> >>> In context, I think that was a disagreement. >> >> You are correct. It was a disagreement, and for the reasons you stated. > > Sorry that you also missed the irony; I thought it was obvious that I'd > probably fall off my chair if you ever agreed with one of my posts ... Oh I think we /all/ "got it", we just choose to ignore said "irony". > If I receive an email appropriately and tastefully using colour and/or > HTML then I prefer it to the limitations of chevrons, plain-text-only, > etc.; if it mattered enough to me to justify installing a reader and/or > plugin to convert plain incoming mail then I would. > > But I don't tell anyone how they are "supposed to" format their email; > I'm much more interested in the content than whatever format they chose > or had to use. If there's an issue that they may be unaware of I'll ask; > otherwise if it matters I'll do what's required at my end in order to > read it. Which I guess is why better than a decade ago we convinced Jay to implement a filter to reject HTML emails sent to the list. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 04:47:32 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:47:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Richard wrote: > Dennis Boone writes: > >> Thought I had this covered, but I can't find 'em. Looking for either >> of the following cables, which are the serial port fanouts for Annex >> terminal servers. 50-pin centronics at one end, 6 DB25 at the other. >> Anybody have one or two they'd part with? >> >> AX3-CBL-DCE-100 or CM0018008 (DCE variety) >> AX3-CBL-DTE-100 or CM0018009 (DTE variety, quelle surprise) > > ebay searches running for years have never turned up the cables alone. > I have purchsed some xylogics terminal servers just to get the cables. > You can also make your own ut its a bit of a PITA. Do these use an unshielded AMP CHAMP type connector? Is there a pinout and photo of these available somewhere? They sure don't sound very complicated. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 14 05:13:05 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:13:05 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: That's what I thought. I got one of these... HP-UX 9.x loaded, I think. SPc. 2012/10/14 Jochen Kunz : > >> HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) > Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Oct 14 05:17:41 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 11:17:41 +0100 Subject: Crossed signals? In-Reply-To: <5079E4FE.1020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <26436DA7ECC240A48A77EB5D0BA8D88B@ANTONIOPC> Josh Dersch [derschjo at gmail.com]wrote: > I seem to be getting a lot of posts in my cctalk inbox coming > from what > appears to be the Curmudgeons Who Are Pretty Sure They're > Smarter Than > Everyone Else mailing list as of late -- has anyone else been seeing > this, or is there something wrong with my mail filter? It's your email client: if you ran a sensible one like Sycamore-2.2 you'd be able to have it rewrite top-posted messages, colour threads for you, automagically plonk and discard posts you're not interested in. HTH, :-) Antonio From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 14 08:23:34 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 08:23:34 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2012, at 10:07 PM, Aracnet wrote: > What about just using a SCSI adapter? Thought the equivalent to a > Webster ESDI controller would be nice. I use SCSI on my /44 as well > as my /23+ and /73. The /23 is limited to RL01/02. > Because unibus scsi controllers are hard to find (in my world) and generally very expensive. Not to mention - sooner or later the original scsi boards will die. It would be helpful to keep the machines around longer if a "universal controller" existed that could emulate any of the common historical controllers and storage. See Brad Parkers initial efforts for "udisk".... http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Udisk I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up some $$$ for such a project.... J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:07:05 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:07:05 -0500 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <507AC709.5050000@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 02:55 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) > Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. > The 715 is an entirely different line of machines. The 700-series is > PA-RISC based, where the 400-series is m68k based. Yes. I don't consider the 7xx line to be real Apollos and IIRC there's no Domain release for them; they're just HPUX boxes with an Apollo brand slapped on them. A 425t is a real Apollo though and a rather nice machine IMHO (the earlier ones just looked like big PC-a-like boxes and weren't particularly fast). I don't think it'll run Domain/OS without a Domain keyboard plugged into it, so you'd be stuck* with BSD if you don't have one. * and it's perhaps questionable what the point is of running Domain/OS unless you have more than one machine; IIRC all the good stuff revolved around having a bunch of interconnected systems, and the features on a single system were more quirky/annoying than anything. There do seem to be far more Apollo systems around than there are Domain keyboards - I don't know if that's how they shipped, or if they keyboards have been ditched over the years because people mistake them for just another PC keyboard. Probably the latter :-( cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:09:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:09:42 -0500 Subject: Crossed signals? In-Reply-To: <5079E4FE.1020000@gmail.com> References: <5079E4FE.1020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507AC7A6.5040500@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 05:02 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I seem to be getting a lot of posts in my cctalk inbox coming from what > appears to be the Curmudgeons Who Are Pretty Sure They're Smarter Than > Everyone Else mailing list as of late -- has anyone else been seeing this, > or is there something wrong with my mail filter? One of the toucans in your toucan ring network has got stuck and is causing the contents at the bottom of your bit bucket to overflow into your screen. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:14:59 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:14:59 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C4B8.4070509@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507AC8E3.4000400@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 02:54 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:44 PM -0400 10/13/12, Toby Thain wrote: >> Yesterday I heard somebody on this list scored an Xserve G5 and 5TB >> Xserve RAID being junked. If you've ever used this kind of gear ... >> that's kind of a nice deal. :) >> >> --Toby > > It might be nice, but keep in mind how old that is, and I hear drives are > getting harder to source. Great for hobbyists, not so great for businesses. Yes, "can't get the parts" or "uses too much power" seems to drive a lot of throw-outs from the corporate world. What I did find though was that things changed circa 2003 (and I was in the UK then, so perhaps it was different elsewhere) and companies got paranoid about data theft - it suddenly became a lot more difficult to get hardware, and next to impossible to get anything with the drives still intact. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:19:29 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:19:29 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 02:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/13/2012 03:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I just collected a new PC carcase this morning which was advertised on >> my local Freegle group (i.e., Freecycle by another name) last night. >> >> Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme 6850, 3GHz, 8GB DDR2 RAM. I fitted my own >> disks and graphics card. >> >> Apparently, that is the level of specification some people are >> throwing out now. Quite remarkable. > > It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put > in the trash. Yep... and I think a lot of PCs that get tossed are probably just overheating due to being choked with dust. I see a few ads around here for people seeking modern e-waste who are probably clued up to this kind of thing. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:24:29 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:24:29 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 06:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, TeoZ wrote: >> Where have you been, computer games have been driving upgrades since the DOS >> era on PC and one of the major reasons people purchased computers since the >> Commodore/Atari days. > > In the EARLY days of the 5150, "BUSINESS" users went with monochrome. > Then they came back to "upgrade" to color (to run games, but they would > never admit it). To make use of what was there, "256 color accounting" > was developed. Hmm, I don't know - I think a lot went with color because that's what they saw their peers/competitors doing. They didn't need it, but once a few had it, everyone had to have it, because it looked prettier and was "more modern". From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 14 09:23:30 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:23:30 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <507AC709.5050000@gmail.com> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <507AC709.5050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121014162330.42c330a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:07:05 -0500 Jules Richardson wrote: > A 425t is a real Apollo No. It is a HP300 machine with some Apolloness shoehorned in. I.e. a ISA slot for the Apollo Token Ring NIC and a domain keyboard port. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:34:02 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:34:02 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> On 10/13/2012 04:21 PM, Pontus wrote: > Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. > Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the > bells and whistles. I still can't get my head around that, though. Do today's gamers forget that they're playing a game, then? To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D platforms that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of entertainment extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a modern game when all it will ever be is "just a game". cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 09:29:19 2012 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:29:19 +0800 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <507AC709.5050000@gmail.com> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <507AC709.5050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 October 2012 22:07, Jules Richardson wrote: [...] > There do seem to be far more Apollo systems around than there are Domain > keyboards - I don't know if that's how they shipped, or if they keyboards > have been ditched over the years because people mistake them for just > another PC keyboard. Probably the latter :-( The older DN nodes etc will boot to a serial console so it is quite possible that a number of process servers where shipped without keyboards or monitors. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 10:46:46 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:46:46 +0100 Subject: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals In-Reply-To: <507A0A9D.4020507@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <808A8BC57273418590A9BC8DB28A2027@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Stephens > Sent: 14 October 2012 01:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Fwd: RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals > > > Top posted thread. I see no problem with it. Is "in-line" posting OK? I "top posted" originally as that had become the pattern. Isn't there an RFC some where that says to be generous in what you accept as valid, but be exact in what you send... > > BTW is anyone here familiar with the Cisco 2612? It is > mentioned below > for those who wish to read further. > I'll tell you what I am now a lot more familiar with it than when it arrived three weeks ago, but having been touring the West Pondia for two weeks not as familiar as I wanted to be. The "Product Data Sheet" is here:- http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/routers/ps259/product_data_sheet0 900aecd800fa5be.pdf In brief it is a 1-U box a with a single 10Meg Ethernet port and a 4/16 Megs token ring port as standard. It also has the usual Modem and Serial ports for a Console. it has one network module slot, two WAN interface card (WIC) slots, and one "Advanced Integration Feature" (AIM) slot. They are available on E-bay for around $30-$40. It seems very popular with the CISCO home use community and for Cisco Certified Network Associate (CCNA) training as it runs a reasonably recent version of the CISCO software and so is useful for practising the exercises that are part of these courses. Mine has a basic rate ISDN card in one of the WIC slots. You can add extra interfaces but looking at the table in the above manual many interesting ones either won't work with the 2612 (which seems to be the smallest member of the family) or are rather beyond my price range. However there are 8 (NM-8A/S) and 16 (NM-16A) port async modules which will work and look useful for building a terminal concentrator. > Jim > Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals > Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 21:03:25 +0100 > From: Dave > Reply-To: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com > To: > > > > Rob, > Which cable do you need. The token ring DB-9 -> RJ45 media > filter to go > from the 3174 to the 8226? > There are some here on E-bay:- http://www.ebay.com/itm/390474238769 > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Bob Brown > *Sent:* 13 October 2012 20:17 > *To:* 'H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com' > *Subject:* RE: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals > > Where can I either find this cable or a pinout? > > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### > #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > *From:*H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com] > *On Behalf Of *Harold Bell > *Sent:* Monday, September 17, 2012 12:53 PM > *To:* H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com > *Subject:* Re: [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals > > > > > I use a Cisco 2612 in my setup. There needs to be a Token Ring > concentrator between the 3174 and the Cisco. I use an > IBM 8226-001 > from ebay. I forget what I paid but it could not have > been over $40 > I don't think. The 3174 Token Ring output connector is a 9 pin > D-sub like a serial port and I use a small converter that has a 9 > pin D-sub connector and an RJ-45 socket. It is a generic > item that > you have to open up and connect the two connectors > however you want > for your application. The connection diagram was on the > internet at > one time. I got this at a local hobby electronnics store that > burned about a year ago and I have no idea where to order such a > thing. Using standard ethernet cables to go from the > 3174/converter > to the concentrator to the Cisco is not the perfect way > but it works > if the cables are kept as short as possible so the impedance > mis-match is not to bad. Good luck. > > Buddy > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > *From:*Bob Brown > *To:* "H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com" > *Sent:* Mon, September 17, 2012 1:19:07 PM > *Subject:* [H390-MVS] connecting real terminals > > Is a cisco 2612 what I need to bridge the token ring/Ethernet > networks? (it sounds like it comes standard with > Ethernet and token ring ports)... > > Do I need something else also or does it go: > Terminal --> 3174 --> cisco 2612 --> Ethernet network --> > Hercules? > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### > #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com > [mailto:H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com > ] On Behalf Of scott > Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2012 8:45 AM > To: H390-MVS at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [H390-MVS] Re: Real 3278 won't work with turnkey > > Bob, > > I can check with my source on Monday to ensure the card > will work in > a -51r. > > Scott > > On 09/13/2012 12:58 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > > How much do you want for the 3174 T/r card (and is it > supposed to > work with a 51R)? > > -Bob > > > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu > #### > #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > > ------------------------------------ > > __._,_.___ > > __,_._,___ > > > > > > From colineby at isallthat.com Sun Oct 14 11:08:24 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:08:24 +0100 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1350230904.20109.10.camel@hp0> Sergio, I have to defer to Dave on this. He knows what was used, and what was not. I'll keep a watch for it, but if Dave doesn't remember it, then it's unlikely to be in the Medical Computing Archive. If it's not in that archive, its unlikely to be in the the TNMoC collection. However, there are at two known system survivors with some level of software. Both of them watch this list so they may be able to help. Very best of luck. On Sat, 2012-10-13 at 10:49 +0100, Dave wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby > > Sent: 13 October 2012 08:59 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: WATFOR for IBM 7040 > > > > > > Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing > > Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 > > And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to > > other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's > > National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their > > initial conservation, so this is something I can check, > > though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly > > uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. > > > > Are you looking for the compiler, information about its > > historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? > > > > --Colin > > > > I didn't see anything that said "Watfor" on it when I carried the tapes, > cards and Manuals from Nobby's loft. From what I could see they only every > used the IBM fortran compilers. You might try the folks on the e-mails > here:- > > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/permission-to-includ > e-licensed-programs/forthewaterloocompilersprologcprologwwatbolwatfivandwbas > ic > > but I don't think Waterloo have any thing archived... > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > SPC wrote: > > > > >Hello. > > > > > >Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the > > >software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and > > instructive (I'm > > >using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). > > > > > >Now I should like to go one step beyond. > > > > > >I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if > > >exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the > > >Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the > > rights of this > > >software.. > > > > > >-- > > >Gracias | Regards > > > > > >Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations > > >-- > > >Sergio Pedraja > > > > > >twitter: @sergio_pedraja > > >----- > > >No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- -- Colin From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 11:21:55 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:21:55 +0100 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 In-Reply-To: <1350230904.20109.10.camel@hp0> Message-ID: <2ECCF1BE1F6A4E7CA07C7D02FAB1741C@G4UGMT41> Colin, I don't really "know" what was used, I just carted the boxes down for you chaps to carry away, and I might have missed a box of WATFOR cards. Hope no one got injured in carting the stuff back to Bletchly. Wonder how you are going on with cataloging it. If you want help I might be persuaded to spend a week end sifting through the cards and listing what there is. Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby > Sent: 14 October 2012 17:08 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: WATFOR for IBM 7040 > > > Sergio, > > I have to defer to Dave on this. He knows what was used, and > what was not. I'll keep a watch for it, but if Dave doesn't > remember it, then it's unlikely to be in the Medical > Computing Archive. If it's not in that archive, its unlikely > to be in the the TNMoC collection. > > However, there are at two known system survivors with some > level of software. Both of them watch this list so they may > be able to help. Very best of luck. > > > On Sat, 2012-10-13 at 10:49 +0100, Dave wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby > > > Sent: 13 October 2012 08:59 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: Re: WATFOR for IBM 7040 > > > > > > > > > Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing > > > Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 > > > And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to > > > other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's > > > National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their > > > initial conservation, so this is something I can check, > > > though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly > > > uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. > > > > > > Are you looking for the compiler, information about its > > > historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? > > > > > > --Colin > > > > > > > I didn't see anything that said "Watfor" on it when I carried the > > tapes, cards and Manuals from Nobby's loft. From what I > could see they > > only every used the IBM fortran compilers. You might try > the folks on > > the e-mails > > here:- > > > > > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/permission-to- > > includ > > > e-licensed-programs/forthewaterloocompilersprologcprologwwatbo > lwatfivandwbas > > ic > > > > but I don't think Waterloo have any thing archived... > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimi Non Carborundum > > > > > SPC wrote: > > > > > > >Hello. > > > > > > > >Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and > > > >the > > > >software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and > > > instructive (I'm > > > >using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). > > > > > > > >Now I should like to go one step beyond. > > > > > > > >I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like > to know if > > > >exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM > 7040 to the > > > >Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the > > > rights of this > > > >software.. > > > > > > > >-- > > > >Gracias | Regards > > > > > > > >Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations > > > >-- > > > >Sergio Pedraja > > > > > > > >twitter: @sergio_pedraja > > > >----- > > > >No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -- Colin > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 14 11:55:01 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be >> put in the trash. > Yep... and I think a lot of PCs that get tossed are probably just > overheating due to being choked with dust. Just recently, at work, we had three flatscreens which were "dead". I opened them up and saw bulging caps in the power supplies. I resurected one by just replacing that cap. (The others are pending my getting parts; my collection of parts didn't have enough to fix more than the one.) Most people would have tossed them. Heck, work was going to until I said "hey, let me open that up and have a look...". Fortunately, this workplace isn't totally braindead about such things and thought my fixing them was actually a good thing. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 14 11:59:05 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <201210141659.MAA10021@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up > some $$$ for such a project.... Not quite the same thing, but years and years ago, there was someone who was trying to build a Qbus IDE interface. (I know about it because I was working on NetBSD kernel code to talk to it.) It never went anywhere as far as I could tell. I never saw the hardware and don't know whether the issues I was seeing were hardware bugs or me being confused or what. I don't know whether the person got busy with other things or fed up with my not producing working code or what, but it sure would have been nice. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 12:01:47 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:01:47 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 13 October 2012 20:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/13/2012 03:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I just collected a new PC carcase this morning which was advertised on >> my local Freegle group (i.e., Freecycle by another name) last night. >> >> Intel Core 2 Duo Extreme 6850, 3GHz, 8GB DDR2 RAM. I fitted my own >> disks and graphics card. >> >> Apparently, that is the level of specification some people are >> throwing out now. Quite remarkable. > > It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be put > in the trash. > > Morons. No, he stripped out the drives and the graphics card and built himself a new machine. Probably a Core i5 or Core i7, I am guessing, and quite possibly overclocked. He seemed quite clueful. I am guessing he's a gamer - if he was into Folding at home or the like, this would make a /fine/ backup rig. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 14 12:03:30 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:03:30 +0200 Subject: WATFOR for IBM 7040 In-Reply-To: <1350230904.20109.10.camel@hp0> References: <1350230904.20109.10.camel@hp0> Message-ID: Thank you (both) for the support. As I told you previously, I think that this would be a great addition to the collection of recovered items in Classic Computing available at present. Best wishes for this. Sergio. 2012/10/14 Colin Eby : > Sergio, > > I have to defer to Dave on this. He knows what was used, and what was > not. I'll keep a watch for it, but if Dave doesn't remember it, then > it's unlikely to be in the Medical Computing Archive. If it's not in > that archive, its unlikely to be in the the TNMoC collection. > > However, there are at two known system survivors with some level of > software. Both of them watch this list so they may be able to help. Very > best of luck. > > > On Sat, 2012-10-13 at 10:49 +0100, Dave wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Colin Eby >> > Sent: 13 October 2012 08:59 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: WATFOR for IBM 7040 >> > >> > >> > Its also possible the Manchester University Medical Computing >> > Unit archives will have such a request. They used both a 7040 >> > And 7090. The also made a number of software requests to >> > other institutions. The archives are deposited with the UK's >> > National Museum of Computing. I'm involved with their >> > initial conservation, so this is something I can check, >> > though there may be a little lead time to do so as its mostly >> > uncatalogued, and not at all digitised yet. >> > >> > Are you looking for the compiler, information about its >> > historic distribution and licensing patterns, or something else? >> > >> > --Colin >> > >> >> I didn't see anything that said "Watfor" on it when I carried the tapes, >> cards and Manuals from Nobby's loft. From what I could see they only every >> used the IBM fortran compilers. You might try the folks on the e-mails >> here:- >> >> http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/discussions/permission-to-includ >> e-licensed-programs/forthewaterloocompilersprologcprologwwatbolwatfivandwbas >> ic >> >> but I don't think Waterloo have any thing archived... >> >> Dave Wade G4UGM >> Illegitimi Non Carborundum >> >> > SPC wrote: >> > >> > >Hello. >> > > >> > >Im' playing actually with diverse emulators for the IBM 709x and the >> > >software available for them (IBSYS and CTSS). Fun and >> > instructive (I'm >> > >using it to play with COBOL and FORTRAN at present). >> > > >> > >Now I should like to go one step beyond. >> > > >> > >I have doubts about the compatibility but I should like to know if >> > >exists some request for the WATFOR compiler for the IBM 7040 to the >> > >Waterloo University or whoever would be the owner of the >> > rights of this >> > >software.. >> > > >> > >-- >> > >Gracias | Regards >> > > >> > >Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations >> > >-- >> > >Sergio Pedraja >> > > >> > >twitter: @sergio_pedraja >> > >----- >> > >No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > -- > > -- Colin From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 12:12:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:12:27 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 13 October 2012 21:09, Toby Thain wrote: > > My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they > stop to think, neither is most people's. IKWYM. From about 2006-20010 I used a friend's discarded old AthlonXP 3200+. Then I got a different friend's discarded Athlon64 X2 4400+, an old graphics card for it from another friend and 2GB of DDR RAM from my dead iMac G5. That machine served as my main one from about 2010 (when he replaced with with a Core i7) until yesterday - but I must admit, in the last 6mth or so, it's been getting noticeably slow. I wiped & reinstalled Ubuntu but 12.04 seems to be a bit much for a 7YO AMD chip. It was perfectly usable, just not as responsive as I'd like. I am amazed, really - given that I use Ubuntu on a much slower netbook, for instance. A 64-bit dual-core multi-gigaHertz class CPU with 4GB of RAM should not be inadequate for a single-user desktop machine. But my highest-end notebook - Core 2 Duo, 3GB RAM, Toshiba desktop-replacement type machine from about 4y ago - was /noticeably/ quicker. On my Thinkpad X31 (Pentium M 1.6GHz, 1GB RAM, ATI Radeon Mobility) I've had to drop back down to Lubuntu to keep it usably responsive. Software bloat continues to be a serious problem. The thing is, chips stopped getting massively faster about 5-6y ago now. Things doubled every 18mth up to 2005 or so, then it was 50% for the next generation, then 25% for the one after that, then ~12% for, say, 2nd-gen Core i5/7 over the 1st gen, and <10% for 3rd gen over 2nd. All we're getting is more and more cores and smaller and more electricity-efficient chips. The programmers have not caught on to this yet. > (And don't get me started on > built-in obsolescence and the universality of throw-away-don't-repair > culture.) Oh, total agreement there! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 12:21:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:21:23 -0400 Subject: SDI? MSCP? - Re: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 9:23 AM, Jay West wrote: > > On Oct 13, 2012, at 10:07 PM, Aracnet wrote: > >> What about just using a SCSI adapter? Thought the equivalent to a >> Webster ESDI controller would be nice. I use SCSI on my /44 as well as >> my /23+ and /73. The /23 is limited to RL01/02. >> > > Because unibus scsi controllers are hard to find (in my world) and > generally very expensive. Not to mention - sooner or later the original > scsi boards will die. It would be helpful to keep the machines around > longer if a "universal controller" existed that could emulate any of the > common historical controllers and storage. When I contemplated this project, I was thinking of MSCP. But the other day looking at one of my MicroVAX IIs (not Unibus of course) with an idle KDA50, I wondered why people don't create faux-disks that emulate the SDI interface. Not the same solution by any means, but are the SDI controllers at least more common in QBus and Unibus setups? Or, if recreating the controller rather than just an SDI disk, most likely it would be simpler to emulate the KDA/UDA than MSCP? --Toby > > See Brad Parkers initial efforts for "udisk".... > http://www.heeltoe.com/index.php?n=Retro.Udisk > > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up some > $$$ for such a project.... > > J > > From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 12:21:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:21:27 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 October 2012 15:34, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/13/2012 04:21 PM, Pontus wrote: >> >> Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. >> Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the >> bells and whistles. > > > I still can't get my head around that, though. Do today's gamers forget that > they're playing a game, then? > > To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D platforms > that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" > that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of entertainment > extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't > see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a modern > game when all it will ever be is "just a game". *Really?* I am no gamer, but some of the current stuff in the last 2-3yr is getting to the point that I struggle to tell stationary images from pre-rendered cut-scenes or in some cases a photo. It is a big easier to tell on moving imagery, but some of the war games again just occasionally manage to briefly make me thing it's a film clip. As for character animation, hell, some of the games climbed out the right side of the "Uncanny Valley" years ago. Some of the best-animated female characters actually manage to move sexily in a way that no cartoon or comic character ever could - that's something of an acid test for me. It's not there yet. Facial animation has a long way to go, for instance, but they have cloth and hair down pat now and the best skeletomuscular models are pretty convincing. Vegetation, water, cloud, shadows, smoke, particulates are all essentially solved problems and have been for years. If you have not looked at something since Quake 3 or that era then you are /far/ out of date. I don't find the gameplay interesting, myself - *that* has barely moved on - but the best of the high-end graphics are, just occasionally, jaw-droppingly good. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 12:24:15 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:24:15 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <201210141659.MAA10021@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> <201210141659.MAA10021@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <507AF53F.2070205@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 12:59 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] >> I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up >> some $$$ for such a project.... > > Not quite the same thing, but years and years ago, there was someone > who was trying to build a Qbus IDE interface. (I know about it because > I was working on NetBSD kernel code to talk to it.) At least two of these were completed and documented -- Chuck Dickman's, and Dmitry Pryanishnikov's. http://www.chdickman.com/qbus_ide/ http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2000/01/03/0015.html A version of the latter is mirrored here: http://telegraphics.com.au/pdp11/ --Toby > > It never went anywhere as far as I could tell. I never saw the > hardware and don't know whether the issues I was seeing were hardware > bugs or me being confused or what. I don't know whether the person got > busy with other things or fed up with my not producing working code or > what, but it sure would have been nice. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 12:27:26 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:27:26 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 12:55 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> It probably "got slow" or "got viruses" and, as such, needed to be >>> put in the trash. >> Yep... and I think a lot of PCs that get tossed are probably just >> overheating due to being choked with dust. > > Just recently, at work, we had three flatscreens which were "dead". I > opened them up and saw bulging caps in the power supplies. I Yep, I fixed TEN that way last year (i.e. every single one presented). > resurected one by just replacing that cap. (The others are pending my > getting parts; my collection of parts didn't have enough to fix more > than the one.) > > Most people would have tossed them. Heck, work was going to until I > said "hey, let me open that up and have a look...". Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... > > Fortunately, this workplace isn't totally braindead about such things > and thought my fixing them was actually a good thing. My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. --T > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 12:39:53 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, > these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... > My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From js at cimmeri.com Sun Oct 14 12:42:04 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:42:04 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> >> >> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] >> > > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up > > some $$$ for such a project.... > I would certainly pony up some $. I built my own IDE->S-100 interface (with guidance from my amazing friend, Allison P); it was very easy, hardware-wise. What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. JS From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 14 12:51:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:51:49 -0700 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507AFBB5.6070707@sydex.com> On 10/14/2012 10:27 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > Yep, I fixed TEN that way last year (i.e. every single one presented). ALL of my displays came from that sort of failure, with the exception of the last one--a shorted inverter transformer mandated spending about $5 for a "universal" inverter. As far as desktop machines, I'm still running a 2.0GHz Socket 754 Athlon 64 (in 32-bit mode) on Ubuntu. It's more than fast enough for email and browsing (considering that my DSL connection tops out at 1.5Mbps, the fastest available at my location). Why would I need anything faster? Streaming HD video, given my connection speed, is out of the question, pretty much. So is gaming. Most people it seems don't do much more than that, so why the "need for speed"? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Oct 14 12:57:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:57:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: >> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2012, MikeS wrote: >>> >>>> As regards colour, I hugely prefer the clarity of messages where the new >>>> and quoted text are different colours instead of ever-longer lines of >>>> >>>>>s. >>> >>> I think this reply deserves a screenshot. >>> >>> http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) >>> com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/screenshot_alpine.png >> >> FYI, 2.02 is the current release version. > > You mean re-alpine? http://re-alpine.sourceforge.net/ > No. From the Help banner, this is v2.02 from UW, Built in Feb '11. I only use Fedora distros for mainline stuff. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 12:58:01 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:58:01 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 1:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must be > reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. Oddball bus interface chips on the hardware side, and either completely emulating an existing DEC (or 3rd party) controller's registers and functionality or creating a new controller and being prepared to write drivers for every DEC OS known to man. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 12:58:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:58:46 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 01:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> >> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] >>> >> > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up >> > some $$$ for such a project.... > > I would certainly pony up some $. > > I built my own IDE->S-100 interface (with guidance from my amazing > friend, Allison P); it was very easy, hardware-wise. > > What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must > be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. There are a few obstacles. While none of them are "big" ones, they all add up. The biggest issue is that the people with enough time to do it seem to usually not be the people with the required skillset. Then there's a technical obstacle of bus driver chips that match Qbus or Unibus specs. There just aren't any ideal choices that are available now. There's an easy way around that, but then you're back to the availability of time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 14 13:05:55 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 20:05:55 +0200 Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give > disk back. Do I have to take it apart? The SD-321 drives have a lock mechanism that should release the disk when the button is in the 'out' position. But it doesn't as the old grease keeps the lock in place. I have observed this with both the QX10 and the TF-20 which both use the 1/3 height SD-321 disk drives. So far I managed to get my disks back by prying the lock upwards (or was it downwards?) with my fingers (not very pleasant work). Everytime I plan to fix the drive by replacing the gunked grease, but so far it didn't happen. Greetings & success, Fred Jan From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 14 13:11:15 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" Message-ID: <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> > > HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) > Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. > The 715 is an entirely different line of machines. The 700-series is > PA-RISC based, where the 400-series is m68k based. You can run the > original 4.4BSD-Unix releases from the CSRG on a 425t also. (In HP-UX > mode with HIL peripherals.) The Domain/OS vs. HPsUX "switch" is a > setting in the boot monitor, no hardware switch. I am not trying to be confusing. That's legitimately the unit I have. On the front it says, HP Apollo with a sticker "Model 715t/33." On the back side it says A1630 425t. It has an Domain keyboard port and an HP-HIL port. So what do I have here? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 13:32:36 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:32:36 -0400 Subject: Need for Speed (was: Dead LCD monitor?) In-Reply-To: <507AFBB5.6070707@sydex.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <507AFBB5.6070707@sydex.com> Message-ID: <19D6E3DF-2EBF-4B55-914B-3B696B9E18C3@gmail.com> On Oct 14, 2012, at 1:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2012 10:27 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> Yep, I fixed TEN that way last year (i.e. every single one presented). > > ALL of my displays came from that sort of failure, with the exception of the last one--a shorted inverter transformer mandated spending about $5 for a "universal" inverter. > > As far as desktop machines, I'm still running a 2.0GHz Socket 754 Athlon 64 (in 32-bit mode) on Ubuntu. It's more than fast enough for email and browsing (considering that my DSL connection tops out at 1.5Mbps, the fastest available at my location). > > Why would I need anything faster? Streaming HD video, given my connection speed, is out of the question, pretty much. So is gaming. > > Most people it seems don't do much more than that, so why the "need for speed"? Depends on what you're doing. I build FPGAs, where even with a quad-core i7 and 6 GB of RAM, it takes 45 minutes to build some of the FPGAs I'm working on (longer for some, shorter for others). There's not much I/O involved in building FPGAs, at least not for the time-consuming fitting process (which is essentially a limited exhaustive problem-space search until an acceptable solution is found), so the speed scales roughly linearly with processor speed and, depending on which FPGA manufacturer, the number of cores (because even though it should be an easily-parallelized algorithm, up until recently, Xilinx only ran on a single thread despite the fact that they ran on perfectly capable multi-CPU Solaris boxes a good DECADE ago). So I do have a valid, work-related need for a fast CPU and good RAM bandwidth. If they got their act together, FPGA building and simulation (and SPICE, for that matter) can be massively accelerated with GPUs, which are for most intents and purposes massively parallel floating-point-heavy computers with very limited execution paths. They're actually not too different in spirit from the dedicated vector units of the supercomputers of yesteryear. Also, I do play games. I'm not particularly apologetic for that, and I don't think they're something to "grow out of" any more than comic books are (I've never been one for comics, but I don't think there's anything wrong with them). For me, they're both a method of recreation with friends who live far enough away that they can't just drive over, and they also sharpen my problem- solving skills in very real ways. I'm picky about the games I play, but there are plenty of creative, independent games that have come out recently which are far less mindless and far more creative than you might think. I'm willing to concede that the above paragraph may be the other side of a generational divide; I turn 29 tomorrow, so it's what I grew up on (that, and books, which I also still read and which take up much more of my time). I'd assert that playing decent video games is a fair sight better than watching most TV that's out there. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 13:39:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:39:45 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2012, at 1:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2012 01:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>>>>> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] >>>> >>>> I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up >>>> some $$$ for such a project.... >> >> I would certainly pony up some $. >> >> I built my own IDE->S-100 interface (with guidance from my amazing >> friend, Allison P); it was very easy, hardware-wise. >> >> What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must >> be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. > > There are a few obstacles. While none of them are "big" ones, they > all add up. > > The biggest issue is that the people with enough time to do it seem to > usually not be the people with the required skillset. > > Then there's a technical obstacle of bus driver chips that match Qbus > or Unibus specs. There just aren't any ideal choices that are available > now. There's an easy way around that, but then you're back to the > availability of time. Those are exactly my issues. I've been wanting to make a QBUS version of same for a long time now, and I certainly have the skills, but my tuit supply is exhausted. And the driver chips are a BIG problem. Probably the best equivalents available now are the 74AS640 and 74AS760, but they're really heavy hitters and would probably cause unacceptable ringing on a really long bus. They'd most likely be OK in a small QBUS enclosure, but I think a long unibus system would be problematic. Anyone have any more recent experience? Nothing matches DEC's specs anymore, for probably obvious reasons. The best I ever saw were some of the later NS parts, which actually had an integrator on the output to do slew-rate limiting. You could build something appropriate out of discretes and op amps, but the amount of board space you'd burn would murder you. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 13:40:26 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:40:26 -0400 Subject: SDI? MSCP? - Re: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507B071A.9020302@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 01:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > When I contemplated this project, I was thinking of MSCP. But the other > day looking at one of my MicroVAX IIs (not Unibus of course) with an > idle KDA50, I wondered why people don't create faux-disks that emulate > the SDI interface. Not the same solution by any means, but are the SDI > controllers at least more common in QBus and Unibus setups? That would be great, but it would take a LOT of work. SDI is a fairly complex interface at the electrical level; there's a good bit of analog magic involved. > Or, if recreating the controller rather than just an SDI disk, most > likely it would be simpler to emulate the KDA/UDA than MSCP? MSCP is the system<->controller interface, so these are the same thing. (remember DEC built a lot of different MSCP drives with completely different physical/electrical interfaces) But emulating MSCP at the register and command level is still a lot of work. It has been done by an individual, and he got it to the point where it'd boot VMS from a SCSI disk, but there were a few (likely minor) bugs remaining. Then he just seemed to stop and disappear; I don't know what happened. His website was on my network for a long time, but I've had no contact with him for several years. It's kinda a shame because he got 99% of the way there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Oct 14 13:45:51 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 20:45:51 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507B085F.2030802@update.uu.se> On 10/14/2012 04:34 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/13/2012 04:21 PM, Pontus wrote: >> Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. >> Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the >> bells and whistles. > > I still can't get my head around that, though. Do today's gamers > forget that they're playing a game, then? Probably not, maybe that is a goal for some, but certainly not everyone. > > To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D > platforms that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so > obviously not "real" that the bells and whistles are pointless - and > the level of entertainment extracted from pushing pixels around a > screen is no different, so I can't see the logic in spending spending > the kind of cash required to run a modern game when all it will ever > be is "just a game". When DirectX 11 came along (I could be wrong) a feature called "instancing" was introduced. It allowed the graphics hardware to reuse geometry and thereby reduce memory usage on the graphics hardware. In practice it allowed, for example, a strategy game to render hundreds if not thousands of units. Now that is a real boost for that kind of game. Now tell me, should we stop upgrade our hardware now that this limit has been raised? Why should we draw such a line, simply because "it doesn't look realistic enough anyway". Also, shader effect has really brought graphics to a new level. Seeing hot air refract light around a burning tank in World of Tanks adds to the game. Now we are too far off topic, so I'll stop here :) /P From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 14 13:47:45 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:47:45 +0100 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 14 October 2012 18:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > > On 10/14/2012 01:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >>> >> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] > >>> > >> > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up > >> > some $$$ for such a project.... > > > > I would certainly pony up some $. > > > > I built my own IDE->S-100 interface (with guidance from my amazing > > friend, Allison P); it was very easy, hardware-wise. > > > > What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must > > be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. > > There are a few obstacles. While none of them are "big" ones, they all add > up. > > The biggest issue is that the people with enough time to do it seem to > usually not be the people with the required skillset. > > Then there's a technical obstacle of bus driver chips that match Qbus or > Unibus specs. There just aren't any ideal choices that are available now. > There's an easy way around that, but then you're back to the availability of > time. I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? My own "plan" is to emulate the raw hard disks instead of the controllers (certainly for DEC RD53/54 which are the ones I most want to emulate). One day, when I get time, and when I find someone who can help me with the hardware design. Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 13:52:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:52:40 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B09F8.5030705@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 02:39 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Then there's a technical obstacle of bus driver chips that match Qbus >> or Unibus specs. There just aren't any ideal choices that are available >> now. There's an easy way around that, but then you're back to the >> availability of time. > > Those are exactly my issues. I've been wanting to make a QBUS > version of same for a long time now, and I certainly have the > skills, but my tuit supply is exhausted. > > And the driver chips are a BIG problem. Probably the best > equivalents available now are the 74AS640 and 74AS760, but > they're really heavy hitters and would probably cause > unacceptable ringing on a really long bus. They'd most > likely be OK in a small QBUS enclosure, but I think a long > unibus system would be problematic. Anyone have any more > recent experience? > > Nothing matches DEC's specs anymore, for probably obvious > reasons. The best I ever saw were some of the later NS > parts, which actually had an integrator on the output to > do slew-rate limiting. You could build something appropriate > out of discretes and op amps, but the amount of board space > you'd burn would murder you. I don't think so. I've been thinking about this off-and-on for a few years now. Yes, you'd need to spend some board space, but with more modern high-integration components for the rest of the functionality (on the other side of the bus interface) one really doesn't need to have all THAT much board real estate left over. I think it could be done with a couple of transistors per line, and using even relatively large SOT-23 packages, one would likely burn less than 1/3 of the board and still be in the single-transistor-per-package realm. I really don't think this would be all that tough to do with discretes, either in terms of technical difficulty or board space requirements. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 14:02:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:02:28 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B0C44.2040701@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 07:08 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, >> time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood >> is the primary driver of computer performance today. > > Where have you been, Squarely in the computer business. Like you, I assume. > computer games have been driving upgrades since the > DOS era on PC and one of the major reasons people purchased computers > since the Commodore/Atari days. For personal computers, maybe. Not for more serious hardware. Now (meaning the past decade) the developments made in the personal computer arena are filtering back into the world of more serious hardware, which is something I find very interesting and nice indeed. You'll note that my paragraph above stated that I KNOW this is happening, it was not a claim that it wasn't. > The bright side is any machine that can run current games at high > resolution and full details will probably run any work type application > with decent speed as well (unless you really need a pricey 2GB RAM > equipped video card for CAD). Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 14:04:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:04:48 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507A0345.1010507@update.uu.se> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <507A0345.1010507@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <507B0CD0.6010200@neurotica.com> On 10/13/2012 08:11 PM, Pontus wrote: >> Yes, it's pretty scary. It's disheartening that a brain-vegetating, >> time-wasting activity that people should've outgrown by late childhood >> is the primary driver of computer performance today. -Dave > > "Brain-vegetating"?! - When did you last play a game? When I was a child. I suppose there's the occasional exception of showing my (much younger than I) significant other how to play Zork on a Kaypro, but that's about it. > "Outgrown"!? - Where is the fun in that? I have a great deal of fun EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE. And yet I don't play games. Last night, in fact, I had a lot of fun bringing up a photomultiplier tube and a scintillator crystal, and building a sample-and-hold amplifier to capture its output. This is the beginning of a gamma spectrometer. > "time-wasting"!? - ehm.. well, you got me there... ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 14:05:40 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:05:40 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D platforms > that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" > that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of entertainment > extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't > see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a > modern game when all it will ever be is "just a game" My wife went over to her cousin's house a couple of years ago - she thought her cousin's family was sitting around watching football. She couldn't tell from one room over that they were playing Madden on a Playstation 3. It's the sports games that are really pushing the hardware. I remember the old golf games (Links?) that were so slow that you could watch the course being painted - and that was on fast hardware at the time, mainly first gen Pentium and PowerPC hardware. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 14:08:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:08:11 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 02:47 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- > I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough > electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete components. > My own "plan" is to emulate the raw hard disks instead of the controllers > (certainly for DEC RD53/54 which are the ones I most want to emulate). One > day, when I get time, and when I find someone who can help me with the > hardware design. That would also be a tough proposition, but not impossible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From drb at msu.edu Sun Oct 14 14:11:28 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:11:28 -0400 Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 14 Oct 2012 02:52:38 MDT.) References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20121014191128.1E7CEA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > ebay searches running for years have never turned up the cables alone. > I have purchsed some xylogics terminal servers just to get the cables. > You can also make your own ut its a bit of a PITA. Hmm, that's discouraging. De From drb at msu.edu Sun Oct 14 14:14:24 2012 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:14:24 -0400 Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 14 Oct 2012 04:47:32 CDT.) References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20121014191424.1525EA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Do these use an unshielded AMP CHAMP type connector? Is there a > pinout and photo of these available somewhere? They sure don't sound > very complicated. I don't recall them being shielded, and you're right, they're _not_ complicated. I think I've got the pinout somewhere, and I can certainly build some, was just hoping (lazy!) that I could avoid it. De From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 14:14:36 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:14:36 -0600 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507B0F1C.2020109@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 11:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I don't find the gameplay interesting, myself - *that* has barely > moved on - but the best of the high-end graphics are, just > occasionally, jaw-droppingly good The AI side still needs a long way to go. :) > No comment about plot improvements yet in games. Computer graphics are best used in traditional cell animation (Japanese) I think, permitting more detail in backgrounds and movement. I would guess hardware are about 5-10 years old because software development time, and rendering is still just a good paint program. Two weeks per 25 minute a episode wide screen TV episode seems right. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 14:20:41 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:20:41 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <507B1089.8030105@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 11:42 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must > be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. Lack of driver space in the OS is my guess, looking at the PDP-8. There you had just one or two pages for the device driver. 256 words might be the limit of code space permitted. > JS > Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 14 14:20:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:20:49 -0700 Subject: Need for Speed In-Reply-To: <19D6E3DF-2EBF-4B55-914B-3B696B9E18C3@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <507AFBB5.6070707@sydex.com> <19D6E3DF-2EBF-4B55-914B-3B696B9E18C3@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507B1091.9070901@sydex.com> On 10/14/2012 11:32 AM, David Riley wrote: > Depends on what you're doing. I build FPGAs, where even with a > quad-core i7 and 6 GB of RAM, it takes 45 minutes to build some > of the FPGAs Okay, a valid, but work-related, reason for having a bunch of computing power on your desktop. But most people don't design FPGAs. > I'm willing to concede that the above paragraph may be the other > side of a generational divide; I turn 29 tomorrow, so it's what > I grew up on (that, and books, which I also still read and which > take up much more of my time). I'd assert that playing decent > video games is a fair sight better than watching most TV that's > out there. I've watched less and less TV as the years have gone by because there basically isn't much that's novel anymore. What's the old saw--there are basically seven plots and every story is a variation on one or more of them? Mostly, I try to keep current, read a lot and hope that I'm not becoming some sort of Count Arthur Strong as I continue my long slog into becoming dirt once again... --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 14:22:49 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:22:49 -0400 Subject: SDI? MSCP? - Re: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B071A.9020302@neurotica.com> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> <507B071A.9020302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B1109.5090304@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 2:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2012 01:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> When I contemplated this project, I was thinking of MSCP. But the other >> day looking at one of my MicroVAX IIs (not Unibus of course) with an >> idle KDA50, I wondered why people don't create faux-disks that emulate >> the SDI interface. Not the same solution by any means, but are the SDI >> controllers at least more common in QBus and Unibus setups? > > That would be great, but it would take a LOT of work. SDI is a fairly > complex interface at the electrical level; there's a good bit of analog > magic involved. > >> Or, if recreating the controller rather than just an SDI disk, most >> likely it would be simpler to emulate the KDA/UDA than MSCP? > > MSCP is the system<->controller interface, so these are the same > thing. (remember DEC built a lot of different MSCP drives with > completely different physical/electrical interfaces) Ah yes, silly me. It's a while since I've been looking at DEC stuff, but I seem to have found motivation again.. :) > > But emulating MSCP at the register and command level is still a lot of > work. It has been done by an individual, ... This guy http://www.mscpscsi.com/ ? I studied the MSCP spec and as much as I could find out about it, but it's the undocumented stuff that worries me. I expect one would be spending some time with O/S sources. Also, no hablo analog and digital electronics: That part was to be a friend's domain. We looked at microcontroller and FPGA possibilities. --Toby > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 14:24:42 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:24:42 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 1:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Toby Thain wrote: >> Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, >> these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... >> My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. > > MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but > the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" I will never understand the obsession with "new". --T > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Oct 14 14:32:29 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:32:29 -0400 Subject: Remaining available S-100 board PCBs Message-ID: <004201cdaa42$a64bc780$f2e35680$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! There are still five (5) S-100 SMB, twelve (12) S-100 bus extenders, and three (3) S-100 8088 CPU board PCBs left in case anyone is looking for them. Here are the latest descriptions of these boards: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/SMB%20Board/S100%20Bus%20SMB.ht m http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Extender%20Board/Extender%20Boa rd.htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8088%20Board/8088%20CPU%20Board .htm The PCBs are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. The S-100 SMB is a dual PCB so it is $40. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 14:38:39 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:38:39 -0500 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> References: <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <507B14BF.4010604@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 01:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) >> Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. >> The 715 is an entirely different line of machines. The 700-series is >> PA-RISC based, where the 400-series is m68k based. You can run the >> original 4.4BSD-Unix releases from the CSRG on a 425t also. (In HP-UX >> mode with HIL peripherals.) The Domain/OS vs. HPsUX "switch" is a >> setting in the boot monitor, no hardware switch. > > I am not trying to be confusing. That's legitimately the unit I have. On > the front it says, HP Apollo with a sticker "Model 715t/33." On the back > side it says A1630 425t. It has an Domain keyboard port and an HP-HIL port. > > So what do I have here? I think that only opening it up will tell you that for sure. Here's the fronts from a couple of TNMoC's Apollo 400's: http://www.patooie.com/temp/apollos.jpg ... is the case-front decal on your machine as recessed as on those? It looks in your photo as though it perhaps isn't - which might mean that someone has stuck a 715t decal over the top (from memory, they're certainly about the same size). Of course if that's true, *why* is an interesting question :-) (The blue LED on the TNMoC system is an oddity, incidentally - IIRC the 400 was circa 1990, which seems a little early to see one as a general-purpose indicator on a computer. I think the other 400 in the pair had a more conventional green or amber one. I'm surprised that someone went to the effort to replace it, though, and it's not as though LEDs fail often and force replacement!) cheers Jules From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 14:37:25 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:37:25 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <507B1475.1060009@verizon.net> On 10/14/2012 01:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 1:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must be >> reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. > Oddball bus interface chips on the hardware side, and either > completely emulating an existing DEC (or 3rd party) controller's > registers and functionality or creating a new controller and being > prepared to write drivers for every DEC OS known to man. > > -ethan > The bus interface side is not that hard for non-dma (slower PIO) and hust a bit more for DMA. However Ethan hit the nail on the head with driers for whatever is done. The best known is a Q-bus IDE (could also use CF) interface that likely worked fine but the list of Qbus OSs that would need support was huge. The hardware was by Qbus standards trivial. PDP-11/Qbus includes RT11, RSTS, RSX-11, Unix(many) Then we have MicroVAX, VMS, Ultrix, Netbsd.. Others? The hardware was never the show stopper it was software to use it. There are a few that are easy to simulate one being the TU58 tape. That interfaced via serial port. Its been done in the past. The serial interface limits speed but it beat the real tape by a mile. Another might the RL, RS, or RM disks, simulated the interface and registers and use a MPU to do the heavy lifting to a 64 or 256b Solid state simulation of a disk using flash or other technology. In the end it would be to identify the disks common to all those OSs (other MSPC) and create a controller that simulates that. MSPC has to many copyright and other ropes and chains to hurdle plus its largely black box. It's also an interface that requires a micro as it's locally intelligent (T-11 used in the past). But for the moment is a SCSI adaptor that has MSPC (CMD etal) is the easy way out. Allison From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Oct 14 14:48:09 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:48:09 +0200 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 7:58 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 1:42 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must be >> reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. > > Oddball bus interface chips on the hardware side, and either > completely emulating an existing DEC (or 3rd party) controller's > registers and functionality or creating a new controller and being > prepared to write drivers for every DEC OS known to man. > > -ethan There are plenty of simple boards and they all have the bus driver / receiver chips on them. Why not try to de-solder the chips from one of those boards? After de-soldering you can do a test to see whether all ports are still OK. Or is there a flaw in this reasoning? - Henk, PA8PDP From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 14:55:59 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:55:59 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 1:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2012 02:47 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >> I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough >> electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? > > Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > components. Does the hardware still match the old buses specs? Using thru-the-hole older components how much under the spec are they since I am guessing they where developed in the era of 4K core memory and several feet of busing between rack units. If newer hardware components are used for memory can a reduced bus spec be developed saving the older hardware for places that need original components. Ben. From wlewisiii at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 14:59:09 2012 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:59:09 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:05 PM, wrote: On 13 October 2012 21:09, Toby Thain wrote: > > My livelihood is not impaired by using an 8 year old machine and if they > stop to think, neither is most people's. Delurking briefly, I just wanted to comment that I currently have as my primary machine a 10 year old Dell C640 laptop with a P4M 1.8ghz cpu, 1024x768, maxed out with 2 gb of ram & 2x120gb drives (bios max) & an onboard wi-fi card. USB 1 is the only real annoyance. No speed demon to be sure, but it runs Xubuntu 12.04 well 90% of what I want to do runs fine - if nothing else, a CADR emulator, SIMH & DOSBox all do what I want them to & I don't need to make a living on it. It even can handle my photo negative scanner &, if a bit slowly sometimes, GIMP to edit my photography. There are very few who need a faster computer. Though I'll be the first one to admit it would be nice to be able to afford something newer. William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. Alex White From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 15:00:04 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:00:04 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507B0F1C.2020109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> <507B0F1C.2020109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507B19C4.7040300@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 3:14 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2012 11:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I don't find the gameplay interesting, myself - *that* has barely >> moved on - but the best of the high-end graphics are, just >> occasionally, jaw-droppingly good > > The AI side still needs a long way to go. :) Agreed. This is one area that I enjoy scrutinising in games. --Toby > >> > > No comment about plot improvements yet in games. > > Computer graphics are best used in traditional cell animation (Japanese) > I think, > permitting more detail in backgrounds and movement. I would guess hardware > are about 5-10 years old because software development time, and rendering > is still just a good paint program. > Two weeks per 25 minute a episode wide screen TV episode seems right. > Ben. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 15:01:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121014130029.E57246@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Jason McBrien wrote: > It's the sports games that are really pushing the hardware. I remember the > old golf games (Links?) that were so slow that you could watch the course > being painted - and that was on fast hardware at the time, mainly first gen > Pentium and PowerPC hardware. The goal of computer golf is NOT watching the grass grow??!? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 15:10:35 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:10:35 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507B1C3B.6030204@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 12:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 October 2012 15:34, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On 10/13/2012 04:21 PM, Pontus wrote: >>> >>> Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. >>> Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the >>> bells and whistles. >> >> >> I still can't get my head around that, though. Do today's gamers forget that >> they're playing a game, then? >> >> To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D platforms >> that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" >> that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of entertainment >> extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't >> see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a modern >> game when all it will ever be is "just a game". > > *Really?* > > I am no gamer, but some of the current stuff in the last 2-3yr is > getting to the point that I struggle to tell stationary images from > pre-rendered cut-scenes or in some cases a photo. Agreed - but my point is, it's still obviously just images on a screen, and hence no different to games of many years ago. More photo-realistic, certainly, but I don't find such things any more "real". And if it's no more entertaining, I can't see the need to have recent hardware to run it. > I don't find the gameplay interesting, myself - *that* has barely > moved on - but the best of the high-end graphics are, just > occasionally, jaw-droppingly good. I don't disagree - they're fantastic bits of art. But that doesn't make the game itself better IMHO. cheers Jules From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 14 15:30:27 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:30:27 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Cameron Kaiser > Verzonden: zondag 14 oktober 2012 20:11 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP Apollo 715t > > > > HP Apollo 715t/33 (425t) > > Please don't confuse. The linked picture shows a series 400 machine. > > The 715 is an entirely different line of machines. The 700-series is > > PA-RISC based, where the 400-series is m68k based. You can run the > > original 4.4BSD-Unix releases from the CSRG on a 425t also. (In HP-UX > > mode with HIL peripherals.) The Domain/OS vs. HPsUX "switch" is a > > setting in the boot monitor, no hardware switch. > > I am not trying to be confusing. That's legitimately the unit I have. On the front it > says, HP Apollo with a sticker "Model 715t/33." On the back side it says A1630 > 425t. It has an Domain keyboard port and an HP-HIL port. > > So what do I have here? > PA-Risc machines don't have the apollo label on the box. You have a HP 9000 series 400 machine. Also the 700 series don't have the Domain option, to see if a 69030 or 040 is installed you need to open the machine or switch it on look what the boot room tells you. -Rik From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 15:34:02 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: Old Macs from the 90's in So Cal. Message-ID: <1350246842.64662.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For free in Orange County, CA (92656): I was given a whole stack of old "working" Macs: IIci, IIsi, LC III, Performa 5200CD, PowerMac 5500, Quadra 610, Mac SE, etc. Includes monitors, keyboards, mice, software. If interested, please come and take them all away! Thanks- Steve. From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Oct 14 15:34:13 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 13:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE: Old Macs from the 90's in So Cal. Message-ID: <1350246853.88925.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> For free in Orange County, CA (92656): I was given a whole stack of old "working" Macs: IIci, IIsi, LC III, Performa 5200CD, PowerMac 5500, Quadra 610, Mac SE, etc. Includes monitors, keyboards, mice, software. If interested, please come and take them all away! Thanks- Steve. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 15:56:01 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:56:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Software bloat continues to be a serious problem. The thing is, chips > stopped getting massively faster about 5-6y ago now. Things doubled > every 18mth up to 2005 or so, then it was 50% for the next generation, > then 25% for the one after that, then ~12% for, say, 2nd-gen Core i5/7 > over the 1st gen, and <10% for 3rd gen over 2nd. > > All we're getting is more and more cores and smaller and more > electricity-efficient chips. > > The programmers have not caught on to this yet. The other issue I've begun to notice are companies building their software so that it won't function unless the processor has the SSE2 instruction set. With Intel CPUs this rules out anything pre- Pentium 4, including all the otherwise perfectly usable Pentium M, III, II, and Socket 7 based systems. This also prevents the use of AMD chips such as the Athlon, Athlon XP, any of the K6, etc (anything pre-Athlon 64). One of the worst offenders that I discovered is the Adobe Flash plugin. They "can't reproduce the issue" because they _won't_ test with anything older than a Core Duo. It is just plain pitiful. http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3161034 http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3155858 http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3154276 http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3158108 ...and I happen to like the Pentium III (the Tualatin -S variants in particular) and Pentium M. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 16:15:14 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:15:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: <20121014191424.1525EA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20121014191424.1525EA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Dennis Boone wrote: > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > > Do these use an unshielded AMP CHAMP type connector? Is there a pinout > > and photo of these available somewhere? They sure don't sound very > > complicated. > > I don't recall them being shielded, and you're right, they're _not_ > complicated. I think I've got the pinout somewhere, and I can certainly > build some, was just hoping (lazy!) that I could avoid it. Do the cables include the ring-indicate signal? Since they are using DB-25 connectors I'd guess they probably do. If not, or if the RI signal isn't needed, an easy way to fabricate these would be to terminate 6x unshielded 8-conductor flat cables with 8P8C connectors. Shielded flat cable is available too, but it would be slightly more expensive. Another option would be shielded UTP/Cat5, but since nearly all of the shielded UTP cable is solid conductor, you'd have to make sure to use 8P8C plugs that are specifically made for solid conductor cables. You could also do the same thing with 10-conductor flat cord and 10P10C connectors and pin them out like Digi did so that they could also be used with 8P8C terminated cables and adapters. Unshielded CHAMP connectors are pretty cheap, but the tooling to install them is expensive. There are quite a number of options, the only problems most people are going to run up against is the tooling cost and minimum quantities on the connectors and cable. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 16:19:06 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:19:06 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <507B2C4A.5070802@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 1:30 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > PA-Risc machines don't have the apollo label on the box. > You have a HP 9000 series 400 machine. > Also the 700 series don't have the Domain option, to see if a 69030 or 040 > is installed you need to open the machine or switch it on look what the boot > room tells you. > > -Rik > Not true at all. They used Apollo logo on a bunch of them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hp9000_715.jpg From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 16:32:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:32:46 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 03:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, >>> these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... >>> My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. >> >> MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but >> the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" > > I will never understand the obsession with "new". If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old. Well-trained sheeple, to the utter delight of sales-slime everywhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 16:35:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:35:29 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 03:55 PM, ben wrote: >>>> -----Original Message----- >>> I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough >>> electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? >> >> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >> components. > > Does the hardware still match the old buses specs? What hardware? We're talking about *designing* the hardware. We can make pretty much any type of line driver with a couple of transistors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 16:36:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:36:06 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <507B3046.2040100@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 03:48 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > There are plenty of simple boards and they all have the bus driver / > receiver > chips on them. Why not try to de-solder the chips from one of those boards? > After de-soldering you can do a test to see whether all ports are still OK. > Or is there a flaw in this reasoning? Well: - you'd be destroying otherwise-potentially-useful boards - such boards are in limited supply -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 16:40:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:40:10 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B1089.8030105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507B1089.8030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507B313A.2030904@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 03:20 PM, ben wrote: >> What makes IDE to Qbus or Unibus interfacing so difficult? There must >> be reasons, otherwise it would have been done by now. > > Lack of driver space in the OS is my guess, looking at the PDP-8. > There you had just one or two pages for the device driver. 256 words > might be the limit of code space permitted. We're talking about Qbus and Unibus...nothing at all to do with any PDP-8. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From luke at balooga.com Sun Oct 14 16:46:12 2012 From: luke at balooga.com (Luke Crook) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:46:12 -0700 Subject: FREE: Old Macs from the 90's in So Cal. In-Reply-To: <1350246842.64662.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1350246842.64662.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm interested and in Torrance. -Luke On Sunday, October 14, 2012, steven stengel wrote: > For free in Orange County, CA (92656): > > I was given a whole stack of old "working" Macs: > IIci, IIsi, LC III, Performa 5200CD, PowerMac 5500, Quadra 610, Mac SE, > etc. > Includes monitors, keyboards, mice, software. > If interested, please come and take them all away! > Thanks- > Steve. > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 14 16:50:08 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:50:08 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > What hardware? We're talking about *designing* the hardware. We can > make pretty much any type of line driver with a couple of transistors. > -Dave Actually, meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 14 16:53:02 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:53:02 -0600 Subject: SDI? MSCP? - Re: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507B343E.5040200@brouhaha.com> Toby Thain wrote: > I wondered why people don't create faux-disks that emulate the SDI > interface. There's almost no documentation available on SDI. A little bit can be gleaned from RA81 docs, but not nearly enough. > but are the SDI controllers at least more common in QBus and Unibus > setups? Not all that common. > Or, if recreating the controller rather than just an SDI disk, most > likely it would be simpler to emulate the KDA/UDA than MSCP? The KDA/UDA *are* MSCP devices. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 14 16:53:08 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:53:08 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:32 PM Subject: Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > On 10/14/2012 03:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, >>>> these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... >>>> My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. >>> >>> MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but >>> the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" >> >> I will never understand the obsession with "new". > > If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old. > > Well-trained sheeple, to the utter delight of sales-slime everywhere. > > -Dave > > -- There are plenty of old LCD screens not worth fixing because they sucked when new (bad contrast and colors, slow refresh for gaming, lower resolution). You can get decent new monitors for $100, so I can see your work not wanting you to waste time sourcing parts and trying to fix the old ones (they are paying you to do something more important and profitable I assume). I would have just taken the broken monitors home and used them for something after I fixed them (I have a 17" LCD that needed a couple new caps and a couple $1 parts to fix a few years ago). LCDs make great workbench monitors since they take up little space. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 17:01:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:01:23 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 05:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> What hardware? We're talking about *designing* the hardware. We can >> make pretty much any type of line driver with a couple of transistors. > > Actually, meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. Why? (if you want to go into it) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 14 17:02:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:02:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <507B14BF.4010604@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Oct 14, 12 02:38:39 pm" Message-ID: <201210142202.q9EM2ouH17105006@floodgap.com> > Here's the fronts from a couple of TNMoC's Apollo 400's: > > http://www.patooie.com/temp/apollos.jpg > > ... is the case-front decal on your machine as recessed as on those? It > looks in your photo as though it perhaps isn't - which might mean that > someone has stuck a 715t decal over the top (from memory, they're certainly > about the same size). Of course if that's true, *why* is an interesting > question :-) It looks *exactly* like that, except for the sticker over the Series 400 (with the 715t sticker). Otherwise, it has the same lights and everything. I'll crack it open later and look on the board. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters, orthopaedist: "Hey! Careful with your back, Eugene!" --------- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 14 17:19:06 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:19:06 +0100 Subject: Desoldering Pump Message-ID: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> I find myself in need of a new desoldering pump. I found a number on the Farnell site, anyone have any recommendations for a good one that does not cost more than ?25ish (about $40) and for which I can get spare nozzles? Here is the page: http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+204695&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt= desolder+pump&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial Regards Rob From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 17:30:19 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:30:19 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <507B3CFB.9010305@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 5:53 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware > level, late 2012 > > >> On 10/14/2012 03:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, >>>>> these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... >>>>> My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. >>>> >>>> MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but >>>> the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" >>> >>> I will never understand the obsession with "new". >> >> If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old. >> >> Well-trained sheeple, to the utter delight of sales-slime everywhere. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- > > > There are plenty of old LCD screens not worth fixing because they sucked Only a couple of the dumpster 10 were in that category, and even those are great for text use. There were several Samsungs, which are the best of the batch by far. Two of which (225bw model) were discarded by my boss (who replaced with new Samsungs). I kept one for my wife's desk and a neighbour scored the other (I got lots of good unwanted parts from him in return - enough to build the aforementioned P4 gaming rig). --Toby > when new (bad contrast and colors, slow refresh for gaming, lower > resolution). You can get decent new monitors for $100, so I can see your > work not wanting you to waste time sourcing parts and trying to fix the > old ones (they are paying you to do something more important and > profitable I assume). > > I would have just taken the broken monitors home and used them for > something after I fixed them (I have a 17" LCD that needed a couple new > caps and a couple $1 parts to fix a few years ago). LCDs make great > workbench monitors since they take up little space. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 17:34:51 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:34:51 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B3E0B.5090704@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 4:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2012 05:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> What hardware? We're talking about *designing* the hardware. We can >>> make pretty much any type of line driver with a couple of transistors. >> >> Actually, meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. So how many standard loads will the bus drive with that leakage current, after buss termination loading. > Why? (if you want to go into it) > > -Dave PS. Dave if I had a PDP-11 rather using a PDP-8 here and there I would know all this stuff. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 14 17:38:07 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <201210142238.SAA11437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There are plenty of old LCD screens not worth fixing because they > sucked when new Possibly. I haven't seen any that aren't plenty usable for many of my purposes (text console on peecees, perhaps most notably). > You can get decent new monitors for $100, You can? Perhaps for sufficiently small values of "decent". I have found exactly _one_ flatscreen - and it's a relatively old one - which has one thing I consider essential to being "decent", namely, the ability to textbox - to display black surround instead of scaling when the video signal is smaller than the screen's native resolution. (Having the ability to scale is nice. Having no choice in the matter is not.) Furthermore, another thing I consider essential to being "decent" but which I've noticed recent flatscreens lacking is the ability to manually correct when its built-in guesses about where the frame begins and ends in the video signal are wrong. However, that's not quite so hard to find. > so I can see your work not wanting you to waste time sourcing parts > and trying to fix the old ones I don't know about anyone else's case, but in my case they could pay me for every minute of my time involved and still turn a dead monitor into a working one for less than even your optimistic price for a new one. It doesn't take very long to pop the case and replace the caps. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 17:38:34 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:38:34 -0600 Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <507B3EEA.50502@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 4:19 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I find myself in need of a new desoldering pump. I found a number on the > Farnell site, anyone have any recommendations for a good one that does not > cost more than ?25ish (about $40) and for which I can get spare nozzles? > Go the BIG money, you need both a temp controled iron and a built in pump using compressed air. I have no idea what it called, but they are a joy to use. > Regards > > Rob > Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 17:49:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> > Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > components. a "pentium" laptop ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 17:52:49 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> > >>> MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but > >>> the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, TeoZ wrote: > There are plenty of old LCD screens not worth fixing because they sucked > when new (bad contrast and colors, slow refresh for gaming, lower > resolution). You can get decent new monitors for $100, so I can see your > work not wanting you to waste time sourcing parts and trying to fix the old > ones (they are paying you to do something more important and profitable I > assume). A significant part of my current assignment is simply BEING PRESENT :-( > I would have just taken the broken monitors home THAT they will fire for! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 17:56:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210142238.SAA11437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <201210142238.SAA11437@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121014155552.K57246@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > I don't know about anyone else's case, but in my case they could pay me > for every minute of my time involved and still turn a dead monitor into > a working one for less than even your optimistic price for a new one. > It doesn't take very long to pop the case and replace the caps. Sometimes I wonder if the paperwork, going through multiple people for ordering, isn't more work than the repair would be. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 16:51:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:51:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP65 keyboard repair ? In-Reply-To: <507929BC.3030002@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Oct 13, 12 10:43:40 am Message-ID: > > > So the HP65 that is on my desk needs repair : > > - the gummy wheel thing is reasonably easy, > - I will be able to fix the charger / power supply issue ( doesn't run > from a good battery, does run from charger Firstly, be careful. The card reader chip in the HP65 [1] runs directly off tyhe bettery. If you conenct the charger and there's no good battery instaleld, you cna damagie this chip. [1] This is the cip on the long, then, PCBN down one side of the machine. It's HP custom, of course. The HP67 has much the same design, but the chip was redisigned to withstand the full charger voltage. HP67s _should_ be OK if you conenct the charger without a good battery in plce, but I don;t like to risk it. IIRC the HP67 chip will work in an HP65 (and of course the resulting HP65 will not be camaged if the charger is conencted without the battery in place). Secondly, if a machine will run from the cnager but not the battery, check the shorting contact on the charger plugi n the calculator. There's a gold-plated contact that shorts the outside 2 pins of the connector together if the charger is not plugged in. This conenctes the battery to the calcualtor. The charger hs 2 outputs. When it's plugged into the backine, the cotnaxct votlage output (4.2V) pows the logic (apart from the card reader...), the constant current output (55mA with a maximum votlage of around 15V) charges the battery. Unofficial HP65 schematics are avaialbe from HPCC. ) > - but is there any update on possible solutions for those broken > keysprings ? The '5' and '.' are basically gone... > Nasty!. I assume the metal strip has cracks in it. You can try soldering them. It won't last too long, and the keys will feel 'worng', but it woun't do any furtehr damage. If you can get some good contact strips you can try ripping off the original (it's spot-welded, not soldered!), and solder on the replacemnt using a minimum amount of solder. It won't be perfect, but it's probably the best you can sensibly do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 17:08:20 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:08:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: <20121013150535.J31315@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 13, 12 03:17:46 pm Message-ID: > > But I wil lagree that '1.2M' is common usage, and pretty unambiguous. > > Similarly 1.44M for the 500kbps MFM data rate 3.5" drive (I do object to > > a 'megabyte' being 10^3*2^10 bytes, but it's common usage...) > "common MIS-usage" > > I over-react to that particular idiocy. For me, that is worse than DB9 or > 56K-baud. Perhaps we should just accept that '1.2M' and '1.44M' are names for such drives without tryign to decode them any further. Yes, there may be idiotic reasons for such names, but can we ignoe thaose? I have n problesm with 56Kbuard if used to describe a serial interface running at that bit rate. I dop have a rpblem with it beiing used for the line-side interface of cetain telephoen modems :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 17:21:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:21:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-10 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Oct 13, 12 03:45:10 pm Message-ID: > > Tony D. wrote, in response to a message about the Wang 100-series > calculators that I wrote a while back Yes, sorry for the delay. I have jsut about caught up with my e-mail now. BAsically, my ISP accidently stopped accepting PPP conenctions (dial in, get throug hthe login/pass word promps, then nothing). I told them about this, they told me to check a lot of irrlevant things (which I did, just ot be safe). I pointed out I could describe exactly what was goign on ,i'd got a datacoms analyser between the PC and the modem and could see what each side was doign. I'd changed nothign, my hardware wa behaving as I expected it to, etc... Afte 2 weeks of such comments, they finally told the networking group, who fixed the problem in < 1 day. Ho-hum.... > > > > Please don't murder me. I was young and foolish... I have the remains > of one > > of those somewhere :-( > > I understand. We all make mistakes, especially when we are younger. I > made my share of mistakes back in the day too...though it's not like the > days of mistakes are gone despite my age and supposed wisdom :-) > > These are extremely rare machines today. They were kind of a lost ARGH! Now, I am wondering it it owuld be possible to restore mine... I think the logic boards are basically intact. I did rad some of the 0.156" edge conenctors (and may have lifted traces while so doing :-(), I may have tken the odd logic IC, but only common TTL parts. The PSU is intact, apart fro mthe fact I removed the output cable and paddleboard and wired it to my homebrew machins. I may still have the paddleboard somewhere. The bottom part of the case is intct, I may havee drileld a few holes, but noting major. Ditto the rear (black) panel aroudn the AUX conenctor The disaster is the keybaord. I used this for my hoebrew, and of course I had to use the PCB to suppro the microswitchs. AS a result I must have cut a lot of traces. I also remvoed and used elswhere hte 6 little toggle switchs (but I guess thouse are stnadard). I can't rememebr what I did to the bacjk of interlocking buttons, I know i disabled the itnerlocking part, but whether that is permanent I don't know. I relabeleld all the keys, but I think i did that by turning over the bits of card inside the keycap and using rub-down letters on the back. So that is not permanent. I doubt I still have the keybaord cables and paddleboards, though. I should have hthe nixie tube board intact. And the 'rolling pin' hosuing for the display, prbably minus the filter. What I know I can't find is the top (white) part of the case. I have no idea what happened to that. It didn';t work before I took it to bits, of coruse. And I never had any docuemtnation on it. I susepct given schematics, at least of the keyboard section, I could have a go at restorign it. Might be a fun project sometime. > machine from the get-go -- the 100-series was Wang's attempt at making a > calculator that was cheaper than the 700-series calculators that were > Wang's top-end machines, with amazing capabilities and speed. The > 100-series was a huge compromise, using a serial bit-by-bit ALU, the > "cheap" diode (slow) ROM versus the (fast) wire-rope ROM of the > 700-series, and keycode-encoded programs for advanced math operations > (trig & statistics) versus microcoded routines on the 700-series. By > the time the 100-series machines made it to market, the technology used > in them had been eclipsed by solid-state ROM, and higher-levels of TTL > integration, pretty much making them dead-ends. They never sold well, > and planned improvements, like an external learn-mode programmer and > other peripherals were canceled. Right,... > > > > > I got it years ago, and used the keyboard, case, and PSU as part of my > first > > homebrew machine. I think i have the main PCBs mostly intact still. > > I did desolder some of the connectors and maybe the odd IC, though. > > A worthy use for the parts at the time. No faulting you for building a > homebrew machine from it. This was about 30 years ago, BTW. It's not something I did last week :-). However, even then I did see the value in some old machines. I got a Casio AL100 at aobut the same time, and I did rpeserve that. > > > > > IIRC there were 3 boards in the pile. The bottom 2 were the diode > matrix > > firmware ROMs, the top one was full of mostly TTL. > > That's the one. The top board had almost all the logic, and the two > bottom boards had the diode ROM matrices. Yes, from what I rememebr abotu the machine it was identical to the pictres on your site. > The top board had a mix of TTL and DTL ICs on it, mostly small-scale. > > > There was another 24 pin > > IC (the ROM you mention) and some RAMs (1101a?). > > The 24-pin IC was part of the microcode sequencer, a mask-programmed TMS > 2600 device. The RAMs were indeed 1101A's, either genuine Intel, or That's it. > second-sourced parts from various IC houses. There are four sockets, of > which two are populated for the "base" models with 4 memory registers. > The other two sockets were populated for the "extended" models, which > had 12 memory registers. I am pretty sure mine had all 4 RAMs in it. Probbably still does. > > > I seem to remember a > > couple of smaller PCBs tht fitted on top, display drivers? > > Yes. The display or printer driver board plugged into a socket on the > main board. In the models with Nixie displays, the BCD- to 1-of-10 Mine had the nixie tubes. > chip, and display drive transistors were on this board. On the models > equipped with the built-in printer, the circuitry to drive the printer > (a Seiko drum printer) were on the board. There was a socket on either > of these boards that another board could plug into which was the > Trig/Statistics ROM board. This board contained some sequencing and I do rememebr a secodn board on top opf the disply driver, but I don;t think it backhes the one you show. I don't remmerb ra second ROM, for example. > addressing logic, along with another mask-programmed TMS 2600 ROM that > contained keycode sequences to carry out (rather slowly) trig and some > statistics functions. This board was an extra-cost option. > > See http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang144t.html for more information. Maybe I should try to get it going again... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 14 18:12:59 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:12:59 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 >> I would have just taken the broken monitors home > > THAT they will fire for! > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I assumed they would toss the monitors and you would be allowed to pick them up (after asking). Most large companies have a contract with somebody for ewaste, smaller places give the junk away. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 14 18:13:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:13:54 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: <507B3EEA.50502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> <507B3EEA.50502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507B4732.6080401@sydex.com> On 10/14/2012 03:38 PM, ben wrote: > Go the BIG money, you need both a temp controled iron and a built in pump > using compressed air. > I have no idea what it called, but they are a joy to use. Not for me, at least not the Weller ones--the ones that run from plant air and have a TCP tip with a glass reservoir stuffed with glass wool. I found that a plain old Soldapullt works better. That being said, there are some eBay sellers with a rig consisting of a 40W hollow-tipped iron and a desoldering pump built into a single unit--and that can be operated with a single hand. I think I paid about USD$25 for mine and I like it very much. Like any desoldering iron, you have to take care to keep it tinned. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Oct 14 18:14:06 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:14:06 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: <507B473E.3020701@telegraphics.com.au> On 14/10/12 5:53 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:32 PM > Subject: Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware > level, late 2012 > > >> On 10/14/2012 03:24 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Words fail to describe the wrongness of this wastage. Absent the caps, >>>>> these things certainly have a 10+ year lifespan... >>>>> My current workplace still uses four of the fixups. >>>> >>>> MY workplace objects to repairs. They make a lot of bogus excuses, but >>>> the real rweason is, "If you fix it, then we don't get a NEW one!" >>> >>> I will never understand the obsession with "new". >> >> If it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old. >> >> Well-trained sheeple, to the utter delight of sales-slime everywhere. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- > > > There are plenty of old LCD screens not worth fixing because they sucked > when new (bad contrast and colors, slow refresh for gaming, lower > resolution). You can get decent new monitors for $100, so I can see your > work not wanting you to waste time sourcing parts and trying to fix the > old ones (they are paying you to do something more important and > profitable I assume). Why do think I consider this system broken? Throwing out perfectly good gear has only short term appeal. True, thinking long term is out of fashion... > > I would have just taken the broken monitors home and used them for > something after I fixed them (I have a 17" LCD that needed a couple new > caps and a couple $1 parts to fix a few years ago). LCDs make great > workbench monitors since they take up little space. Oh, they'll all find homes and uses eventually :) --T From bear at typewritten.org Sun Oct 14 18:42:03 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:42:03 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> References: <201210140434.q9E4Yp3S17498212@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2012, at 9:34 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > AIUI, this unit can boot both Domain/OS and HP-UX. Only if it had stayed a 425t. Once it was converted to a 715t, it becomes a 715 in every respect except chassis. > Ostensibly there is a switch on this unit which says what it's configured for, but I can't > find it in the manual or obviously on the exterior of the unit. It's not physical switch. It's a configuration flag set in the ROM monitor. This isn't present on your 715t because it's not a 400-series anymore, chassis notwithstanding. FWIW the bummer about this switch is there's no real way to change if you have the wrong keyboard. > Any suggestions? I haven't fired it up yet. Run HP-UX or NEXTSTEP. Domain/OS is out of the question. Sorry. ok bear. -- until further notice From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 18:44:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:44:26 -0400 Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2012, at 18:08, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >>> But I wil lagree that '1.2M' is common usage, and pretty unambiguous. >>> Similarly 1.44M for the 500kbps MFM data rate 3.5" drive (I do object to >>> a 'megabyte' being 10^3*2^10 bytes, but it's common usage...) >> "common MIS-usage" >> >> I over-react to that particular idiocy. For me, that is worse than DB9 or >> 56K-baud. > > Perhaps we should just accept that '1.2M' and '1.44M' are names for such > drives without tryign to decode them any further. Yes, there may be > idiotic reasons for such names, but can we ignoe thaose? All you really need is a unique identifier, after all. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 18:51:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:51:59 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2012, at 18:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/14/2012 05:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> What hardware? We're talking about *designing* the hardware. We can >>> make pretty much any type of line driver with a couple of transistors. >> >> Actually, meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. > > Why? (if you want to go into it) I would certainly like to hear. Last I did the math in my head, it didn't look that hard to do with discretes on the output (BJTs) and a fairly high-impedance input. - Dave From bear at typewritten.org Sun Oct 14 18:51:54 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:51:54 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> On Oct 14, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > PA-Risc machines don't have the apollo label on the box. Yes, they do. (Many of the earlier workstations do, up to and including ones from the 715 era.) Some of the confusion about this machine surely stems from the fact that HP offered an official hardware upgrade for the 400 chassis to PA-RISC. It consisted of a normal 700-series mainboard with some mechanical bits changed for fit. Then the machine became like what you see here. The DOMAIN keyboard port would not be retained, though I suppose it's at least possible that the cutout and label are still there. OTOH it's entirely possible somebody took the chassis later and returned it (unofficially, keeping the upgrade badge on the front) to 400-series guts, in which case it is a proper 400-series with all the capabilities and limitations one would expect. Regardless of what the chassis looks like, or the badge says: if it has a PA-RISC processor, it's still a 700-series. If it has an MC68030 or 68040, it's still a 400-series. ok bear. -- until further notice From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Oct 14 18:58:02 2012 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 18:58:02 -0500 Subject: DECstation 5000 mobo for shipping costs Message-ID: <001a01cdaa67$bf950420$3ebf0c60$@rubin@ameritech.net> Got this with a bunch of older DEC docs - digital MAXine 64-21325. I don't know anything about it but it looks like it will fit in a USPS flat rate box. Yours for shipping costs from 60091 (Wilmette IL USA). Contact me directly if you want it. Jack From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 14 19:04:13 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:04:13 -0700 Subject: Ebay Cray T94 In-Reply-To: <507856EE.6000303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/12 10:44 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 10/12/2012 12:07 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> After looking at the other photos of the internals, I don't think that >> skid is up to the task. Since they cracked one of the >> hatches for illustration, makes me wonder what sort of juice is inside >> to cool it with. If freon is it still legal? > > It's not freon, it's Fluorinert. And if it's "illegal", a whole lot > of Cray installations will have to shut down! > > -Dave R-12 (Freon) is not illegal, there are current production items that use R-12 for a coolant, however they are in specific industries and for military use. R-134a is considered the 'standard' replacement for R-12 but is about 25-30% less efficient than R-12. One can still buy R-12 to refill auto and HVAC and other refrigeration applications that were originally R-12 based. However our gubmint is really pushing retrofitting to R-134A or one of the other R-12 replacements. In some other countries than the US, it is possible to purchase consumer refrigeration products that are currently manufactured using R-12. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 19:18:40 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:18:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >> components. > > a "pentium" laptop ? Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 19:22:12 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:22:12 -0700 Subject: Neiman Marcus Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> This is pretty funny. A fool and their money... Luckily they waited until it was on sale for $435. http://www.ebay.com/itm/251168153005 From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 14 19:27:32 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:27:32 -0700 Subject: Neiman Marcus Keyboard In-Reply-To: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/14/12 5:22 PM, "mc68010" wrote: > This is pretty funny. A fool and their money... Luckily they waited > until it was on sale for $435. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251168153005 > I find it better looking than plastic keyboards.... But I always liked the wood paneled S-100 machines... From vince at mulhollon.com Sun Oct 14 19:35:02 2012 From: vince at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:35:02 -0500 Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 4:42 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I have prepared a shared project on Mouser for most of the remaining parts. Thanks! I'm in. Looks like I'm serial number 003. Link to Mouser? Cost estimate for the mouser parts? From vince at mulhollon.com Sun Oct 14 19:38:30 2012 From: vince at mulhollon.com (Vince Mulhollon) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:38:30 -0500 Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 7:35 PM, Vince Mulhollon wrote: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 4:42 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I have prepared a shared project on Mouser for most of the remaining >> parts. > > > Thanks! I'm in. Looks like I'm serial number 003. Link to Mouser? Cost > estimate for the mouser parts? > And I just figured it out 5 minutes after sending the email. $40.73. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 19:46:27 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:46:27 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507B1C3B.6030204@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> <507B1C3B.6030204@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 October 2012 21:10, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/14/2012 12:21 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> On 14 October 2012 15:34, Jules Richardson >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/13/2012 04:21 PM, Pontus wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. >>>> Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the >>>> bells and whistles. >>> >>> >>> >>> I still can't get my head around that, though. Do today's gamers forget >>> that >>> they're playing a game, then? >>> >>> To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D >>> platforms >>> that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" >>> that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of >>> entertainment >>> extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't >>> see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a >>> modern >>> game when all it will ever be is "just a game". >> >> >> *Really?* >> >> I am no gamer, but some of the current stuff in the last 2-3yr is >> getting to the point that I struggle to tell stationary images from >> pre-rendered cut-scenes or in some cases a photo. > > > Agreed - but my point is, it's still obviously just images on a screen, and > hence no different to games of many years ago. More photo-realistic, > certainly, but I don't find such things any more "real". And if it's no more > entertaining, I can't see the need to have recent hardware to run it. > > >> I don't find the gameplay interesting, myself - *that* has barely >> moved on - but the best of the high-end graphics are, just >> occasionally, jaw-droppingly good. > > > I don't disagree - they're fantastic bits of art. But that doesn't make the > game itself better IMHO. No, I agree that the games /qua/ games are no better - but whereas /gameplay/ has if anything made only a few steps forward since the 1980s, for me anyway, and many steps back - the /graphics/ are continuing to improve apace and frankly I see no reason for them to stop until there comes a point where the viewer really will not be able to tell reality from live real-time simulation. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 19:49:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, TeoZ wrote: > I assumed they would toss the monitors and you would be allowed to pick them > up (after asking). Most large companies have a contract with somebody for > ewaste, smaller places give the junk away. THAT would be "reasonable". They tried to FIRE one of my colleagues for taking things out of the dumpster. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 19:50:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 01:50:18 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 14 October 2012 21:56, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Software bloat continues to be a serious problem. The thing is, chips >> stopped getting massively faster about 5-6y ago now. Things doubled every >> 18mth up to 2005 or so, then it was 50% for the next generation, then 25% >> for the one after that, then ~12% for, say, 2nd-gen Core i5/7 over the 1st >> gen, and <10% for 3rd gen over 2nd. >> >> All we're getting is more and more cores and smaller and more >> electricity-efficient chips. >> >> The programmers have not caught on to this yet. > > > The other issue I've begun to notice are companies building their software > so that it won't function unless the processor has the SSE2 instruction set. > With Intel CPUs this rules out anything pre- Pentium 4, including all the > otherwise perfectly usable Pentium M, III, II, and Socket 7 based systems. > This also prevents the use of AMD chips such as the Athlon, Athlon XP, any > of the K6, etc (anything pre-Athlon 64). Well, I don't know about SSE2, but requiring certain features, yes, certainly. Last year, Debian stopped offering a kernel for my Thinkpad's Pentium-M & I had to revert to the 486-optimised kernel. This year, Ubuntu dropped support for x86-32 CPUs without PAE - so again, ordinary 32-bit Ubuntu will no longer boot on my Thinkpad. I had to use the minimal-install CD to install a barebones system and then apt-get in the Unity desktop off the net. It worked, but slowly; I replaced it with Lubuntu, which works much better, but I understand that as of 12.10 (next week!) evne Lubuntu will lost the non-PAE kernel as the upstream repositories will no longer contain it. It's not just an x86 problem, either; the reason that Ubuntu won't run on the Raspberry Pi is that it dropped support for ARM7 back in 2009. (IIRC.) > One of the worst offenders that I discovered is the Adobe Flash plugin. They > "can't reproduce the issue" because they _won't_ test with anything older > than a Core Duo. It is just plain pitiful. > > http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3161034 > http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3155858 > http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3154276 > http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3158108 That is just sad. > ...and I happen to like the Pentium III (the Tualatin -S variants in > particular) and Pentium M. Concur. Fine chips. Much better than the P4 that succeeded them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 14 19:56:17 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> > >> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > >> components. > > a "pentium" laptop ? On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized > boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) battery life? From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 20:03:00 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:03:00 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 14 October 2012 20:56, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >> >> components. >> > a "pentium" laptop ? > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? > Three fifths of a femtosecond? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Oct 14 20:40:34 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:40:34 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. Dave McGuire wrote: > Why? (if you want to go into it) The requirements are basically: Vol 0.7V max into 70 mA load Vil max 1.3V Vih min 1.7V minimum 5 ns rise and fall times (10% to 90%) 80uA max leakage at 3.8V, 10uA max at 0V (with Vcc from 0.0V to 5.25V) 10pF max capacitance My attempts to design anything that meets this failed on either the leakage current, capacitive loading, or both. However, someone who is more skilled with analog design could probably come up with something satisfactory. Even the National DS8641 and DS3662 didn't quite meet the requirements. It is unclear whether the ones DEC used had been screened to better specs (either by National or DEC). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 20:39:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:39:27 -0400 Subject: SDI? MSCP? - Re: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B1109.5090304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <54BA68FC-5C37-4B29-AB12-055AD3639EBB@classiccmp.org> <507AF493.6040903@telegraphics.com.au> <507B071A.9020302@neurotica.com> <507B1109.5090304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <507B694F.6090704@neurotica.com> On 10/14/2012 03:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > This guy http://www.mscpscsi.com/ ? I studied the MSCP spec and as much > as I could find out about it, but it's the undocumented stuff that > worries me. I expect one would be spending some time with O/S sources. Yup, that's the guy. He did good work and got pretty far along! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 14 20:43:41 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:43:41 -0400 Subject: Neiman Marcus Keyboard In-Reply-To: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> References: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: Was Oberhofer that company that built wood cases (and mice and keyboards) for the original form-factor Macs? On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 8:22 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This is pretty funny. A fool and their money... Luckily they waited until > it was on sale for $435. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/**251168153005 > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 20:46:55 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:46:55 -0600 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 6:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > They tried to FIRE one of my colleagues for taking things out of the > dumpster. Well *they* do own it, and it may be a law too. The funny thing is you almost never know when a item will be declared *Get rid of it by Yesterday*. Here in Alberta, Canada it is local law is you have to recycle the stuff so it does not go into the dumpster. Lead in solder I guess. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 14 20:49:27 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:49:27 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507B6BA7.2030400@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/14/2012 7:03 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > On 14 October 2012 20:56, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >>>>> components. >>>> a "pentium" laptop ? >> >> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >>> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >>> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) >> >> battery life? >> > > Three fifths of a femtosecond? > No! the battery just explodes. Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 14 21:06:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> They tried to FIRE one of my colleagues for taking things out of the >> dumpster. > Well *they* do own it, Do they? This is a subtlelty of law I've never really seen discussed. When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? For that matter who does own it after you don't (if you don't)? I'm wondering who would have standing to object to such a thing. I actually suspect this is a morass of overlapping jurisdictions, each with its own special slant on the subject, but there may be some generalities possible.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 14 21:15:31 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Vince Mulhollon wrote: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 4:42 PM, David Griffith wrote: > >> I have prepared a shared project on Mouser for most of the remaining parts. > > Thanks! I'm in. Looks like I'm serial number 003. Link to Mouser? Cost > estimate for the mouser parts? Thanks! Everything is at the P112 website, which is http://661.org/p112 (well, temporarily http://p112.feedle.net). The shared project is https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=5996841c60. That has the cost estimate for Mouser parts. You'll also need two chips from Digikey ($7 each, RS232 drivers). I couldn't figure out where Mouser keeps their .1" header plug stuff, so I have links to where Jameco keeps theirs. You'll need that to make a power cable. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eivinde at terraplane.org Mon Oct 15 04:01:22 2012 From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:01:22 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. -- Eivind From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 15 04:57:39 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:57:39 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Eivind Evensen > Verzonden: maandag 15 oktober 2012 11:01 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I don't want to > risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. > -- > Eivind Mineral or synthetic oil ? -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 15 04:59:55 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:59:55 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <001301cdaabb$d793db10$86bb9130$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens r.stricklin > Verzonden: maandag 15 oktober 2012 1:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: HP Apollo 715t > > > On Oct 14, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > PA-Risc machines don't have the apollo label on the box. > > Yes, they do. (Many of the earlier workstations do, up to and including ones > from the 715 era.) > > Some of the confusion about this machine surely stems from the fact that HP > offered an official hardware upgrade for the 400 chassis to PA-RISC. It consisted > of a normal 700-series mainboard with some mechanical bits changed for fit. > Then the machine became like what you see here. The DOMAIN keyboard port > would not be retained, though I suppose it's at least possible that the cutout and > label are still there. > > OTOH it's entirely possible somebody took the chassis later and returned it > (unofficially, keeping the upgrade badge on the front) to 400-series guts, in > which case it is a proper 400-series with all the capabilities and limitations one > would expect. > > > Regardless of what the chassis looks like, or the badge says: if it has a PA-RISC > processor, it's still a 700-series. If it has an MC68030 or 68040, it's still a 400- > series. > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice Ok, but when it's upgraded to a 700 series the DIN-plug for the Domain keyboard would be disappeared. -Rik From reiche at ls-al.eu Mon Oct 15 05:35:05 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:35:05 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201210151035.q9FAZ5C7014149@ls-al.eu> "Rik Bos" wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > Namens Eivind Evensen > > Verzonden: maandag 15 oktober 2012 11:01 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > > > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I don't > want to > > risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. > > -- > > Eivind > > Mineral or synthetic oil ? > > -Rik > Whale Oil? re, Sander From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 06:03:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 08:03:45 -0300 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> <201210151035.q9FAZ5C7014149@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <0E06C30025FE4CCFBD83E54C8799FBFD@tababook> >> Mineral or synthetic oil ? > Whale Oil? Snake oil? :oD From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 08:04:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:04:51 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2012, at 9:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why? (if you want to go into it) > > The requirements are basically: > > Vol 0.7V max into 70 mA load > Vil max 1.3V > Vih min 1.7V > minimum 5 ns rise and fall times (10% to 90%) > 80uA max leakage at 3.8V, 10uA max at 0V (with Vcc from 0.0V to 5.25V) > 10pF max capacitance Qbus is at least a little more forgiving (10uA max at low level seems a bit odd for TTL, given that it's lower than Iih); drivers have a max leakage of 25uA at 3.8v, while receivers have a max leakage of 80uA over their input range. That's not impossible to achieve with some discrete transistors; a 2N4401 fits the bill nicely for the output stage (and meets the rise/fall time constraint). I'd be more inclined to use a FET input stage or possibly even a comparator to achieve the desired hysteresis and threshold voltage, though a) I haven't thought about what the impedance effects of the positive feedback would be, b) I've had a hard time finding good comparators that work in the correct range and have a short enough propagation delay, and c) a Schmitt trigger made with discretes is probably a good enough solution. I'd love to continue this discussion on or off the list if anyone is seriously interested in developing new Unibus/Qbus boards. A standard solution that is easily reproducible would help quite a few people, I think. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 15 08:07:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 06:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <001301cdaabb$d793db10$86bb9130$@xs4all.nl> from Rik Bos at "Oct 15, 12 11:59:55 am" Message-ID: <201210151307.q9FD7QLG16122042@floodgap.com> > Ok, but when it's upgraded to a 700 series the DIN-plug for the Domain > keyboard would be disappeared. The DIN plug is definitely present. So I guess I have a 425t in a 715 case that still has 425 guts. Guess I should take that sticker off. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Today is a great day for making firm decisions. Or is it? --------- From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 15 08:08:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 06:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> from Eivind Evensen at "Oct 15, 12 11:01:22 am" Message-ID: <201210151308.q9FD8V0S14221422@floodgap.com> > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I > don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. I also keep my hard disk well inflated. I just take it down to the gas station and connect the hose to the air hole and inflate it to 35psi cold. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes? -- Groucho Marx --------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 08:13:29 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 08:13:29 -0500 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507C0BF9.7030502@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 08:46 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/14/2012 6:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> They tried to FIRE one of my colleagues for taking things out of the >> dumpster. > > Well *they* do own it, and it may be a law too. Do they? Or is it the property of the dumpster owner at that point? > The funny thing is you almost never know when a item will > be declared *Get rid of it by Yesterday*. Here in Alberta, > Canada it is local law is you have to recycle the stuff so it does > not go into the dumpster. Lead in solder I guess. They normally charge for e-waste around here, but they did have an e-waste recycling "event" over the summer where people could drop stuff off and not incur a charge for doing so - the company behind that was based in a different state, so presumably thought they were going to make some cash if they were willing to come all that way. To my surprise they were happy for me to come along and look through stuff to see if there was anything vintage for me to rescue - evidently they thought all the value was in modern equipment. It also suggests that "ownership" was a bit of a gray area. cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 08:27:47 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:27:47 +0100 Subject: Love Letters from a 1951 Ferranti wins first Tony Sale Award Message-ID: Summary: Dr David Link has won the Computer Conservation Society's first Tony Sale Award for an art project that runs a program written to generate love letters on one of the first commercial computers http://www.zdnet.com/love-letters-from-a-1951-ferranti-wins-first-tony-sale-award-7000005773/ Other projects nominated for the first Tony Sale Award, sponsored by Google, were a DEC PDP1 restoration at the Computer History Museum in California; the Time-Line Computer Archive being developed by Michael Armstrong and Sandra Hodson, in Wigton, West Cumbria; and a reconstruction of Konrad Zuse?s Z3 Computer (PDF) in Hunsfeld, Germany. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 15 08:32:18 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:32:18 +0100 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/10/2012 03:06, Mouse wrote: > When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? > When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a > dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When > it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? It probably varies according to location. In the UK, ownership of trash passes to the local council when you put the trash in a designated bin, box or bag on the street for collection. Ditto if you take something to the council-run recycling centre, it becomes their property when you dump it in the designated place. However if you hire a skip (dumpster) and put rubbish/junk in it, ownership generally passes to the contractor when they pick it up, and they have the right to refuse to pick it up if you've put inappropriate or prohibited material in it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 08:44:38 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:44:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? Message-ID: 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap pile along with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with complete keyboards! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Mon Oct 15 09:00:03 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:00:03 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd love one, but I don't know how I'd get down there to get it without my wife noticing. On 15 October 2012 14:44, Adrian Graham wrote: > 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap pile along > with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with complete keyboards! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 15 09:11:38 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 07:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rik Bos wrote: > > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> Namens Eivind Evensen >> Verzonden: maandag 15 oktober 2012 11:01 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 >> >> On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" >> >> I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I don't > want to >> risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. >> -- >> Eivind > > Mineral or synthetic oil ? > Whale oil. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 15 09:11:54 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Neiman Marcus Keyboard In-Reply-To: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> References: <507B5734.1090705@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > This is pretty funny. A fool and their money... Luckily they waited > until it was on sale for $435. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/251168153005 Indeed. The question remains though, is someone foolish enough to pay $50.00 or more for it today, and especially in its current nonfunctional condition? >From the looks of it, the keyboard itself appears to be a cheap Mitsumi or similar that has simply been placed inside a wooden "sandwich". It is almost certainly one of the cheaper variety given the size reduced right shift key next to where they relocated the backslash key. With the 5-pin DIN AT style plug, it predates the AT->ATX transition, but since it has the "Windows" keys I'd guess it likely dates from about 1996-1998 or thereabouts. Keyboards that had AT style plugs in combination with the Windows keys were really only seen in the mainstream marketplace for 2-3 years or so after the release of Windows 95 and before ATX got a foothold along with the release of Windows 98 and the Pentium II going mainstream (after the mini-DIN became the norm, existing keyboards that used the 5-pin DIN were dumped on the surplus market for /cheap/). Because it has black key tops, it /probably/ dates towards the end of the Socket 7 era because up to that point beige was the predominant color for keyboards and computer accessories marketed towards general consumers. In fact, since the serial number starts with '98-', possibly pointing towards 1998, this seems to fit perfectly. But "missing one or two keys in the lower left corner" ...the thing is missing the left shift key(!) which makes it pretty much worthless. :) From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 15 09:16:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rik Bos wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Eivind Evensen wrote: > >> I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I >> don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. > > Mineral or synthetic oil ? Didn't you follow the earlier thread? You have to use genuine /Baby oil/. From saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Oct 15 09:25:32 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF78F811148822-1A04-18AB@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> >> I am not trying to be confusing. That's legitimately the unit I have. On >> the front it says, HP Apollo with a sticker "Model 715t/33." On the back >> side it says A1630 425t. It has an Domain keyboard port and an HP-HIL port. >> >> So what do I have here? > >I think that only opening it up will tell you that for sure. You don't have to do that. Only Series 400 HP "Apollos" had both HIL and Domain keyboard connectors, and all Series 400s will run Domain/OS. Even though they're post-buy, it seems as though HP did put some work into them - my 425s is well-built and has pretty much everything you'd need to get a good system running without looking for parts (SCSI and Ethernet onboard). The downside is no ATR if you need to have it talk with older boxes. From vrs at msn.com Mon Oct 15 09:25:59 2012 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 07:25:59 -0700 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: Pete Turnbull: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:32 AM > On 15/10/2012 03:06, Mouse wrote: > >> When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? >> When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a >> dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When >> it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? > > It probably varies according to location. In the UK, ownership of trash > passes to the local council when you put the trash in a designated bin, > box or bag on the street for collection. My understanding is that, in most jurisdictions in the USA, trash is "abandoned property" when you bring it to the curb, even in a designated trash container owned by your trash hauler. This is the result of court decisions allowing police authorities to search the trash without bothering to obtain a warrant. Vince From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 15 09:34:06 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:34:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > On 14 October 2012 21:56, Tothwolf wrote: > > Well, I don't know about SSE2, but requiring certain features, yes, > certainly. Last year, Debian stopped offering a kernel for my Thinkpad's > Pentium-M & I had to revert to the 486-optimised kernel. This year, > Ubuntu dropped support for x86-32 CPUs without PAE - so again, ordinary > 32-bit Ubuntu will no longer boot on my Thinkpad. I had to use the > minimal-install CD to install a barebones system and then apt-get in the > Unity desktop off the net. It worked, but slowly; I replaced it with > Lubuntu, which works much better, but I understand that as of 12.10 > (next week!) evne Lubuntu will lost the non-PAE kernel as the upstream > repositories will no longer contain it. > > It's not just an x86 problem, either; the reason that Ubuntu won't run > on the Raspberry Pi is that it dropped support for ARM7 back in 2009. > (IIRC.) Debian also dropped support for the Alpha processor in 'squeeze' (6.0). This is something I'm very much planning to do something about, although I'm sure I'll piss off a few Debian developers in the process because "No one uses that old hardware anymore!!!" ... http://www.debian.org/ports/alpha/ I have most of the Alpha gear I'd need to kick it off (although some of it could probably use more memory), just not the /space/ needed to unpack it and set it all up. >> One of the worst offenders that I discovered is the Adobe Flash plugin. >> They "can't reproduce the issue" because they _won't_ test with >> anything older than a Core Duo. It is just plain pitiful. >> >> http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3161034 >> http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3155858 >> http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3154276 >> http://bugbase.adobe.com/index.cfm?event=bug&id=3158108 > > That is just sad. Note that they can't even seem to maintain their bug tracking database. Apparently until I dug into it, no one had linked these as the same bug. Since I have no admin privileges, I couldn't mark them as duplicates, but at least now there is a lot more information there. >> ...and I happen to like the Pentium III (the Tualatin -S variants in >> particular) and Pentium M. > > Concur. Fine chips. Much better than the P4 that succeeded them. If Intel hadn't axed the Pentium III when they did the Pentium 4 would have never caught on in the consumer marketplace, or at least not the Willamette...it sucked. A 1.2-1.4GHz P3 can run circles around a Willamette P4 while drawing a lot less current. It wasn't until Northwood that Intel began to get its act together, but the P4 still always ran far too hot, even Prescott. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 15 09:41:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:41:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? I dunno... most P5 based laptops only got what, 30-45 minutes of actual run-time anyway, and you could fit a couple of decent sized SLAs into a luggable chassis without too much difficulty, so you should be able to get at least a half hour or so easy ;) From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 10:08:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:08:13 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull: Monday, October 15, 2012 6:32 AM >> On 15/10/2012 03:06, Mouse wrote: >>> When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? >>> When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a >>> dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When >>> it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? >> It probably varies according to location. In the UK, ownership of trash >> passes to the local council when you put the trash in a designated bin, >> box or bag on the street for collection. > > My understanding is that, in most jurisdictions in the USA, trash is "abandoned property" when you bring it to the curb, even in a designated trash container owned by your trash hauler. This is the result of court decisions allowing police authorities to search the trash without bothering to obtain a warrant. My favorite part about that particular line of thinking was when some local politicians decided to make that explicit in legislation (shortly after our local terrorist event ten years ago). Some concerned citizens looked up their home addresses and dug through their trash cans and posted some items online that said politicians felt were not, in fact, public property (despite their fervent legislative positions to the contrary). - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 10:30:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:30:16 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> On Oct 14, 2012, at 8:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >>>> components. >>> a "pentium" laptop ? > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? A car battery should power that sort of thing for a reasonable amount of time; you'd probably have to carry that in a backpack, but as long as the major computing portion could fit on your lap (for a dubious definition of "fit"), you could probably still call it a laptop. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 10:46:31 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:46:31 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <5079EA6B.6080005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079EA6B.6080005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Have you seen a modern 3D game? they push the hardware pretty hard. >> Certainly harder than a Core 2 Duo can handle. At least if you want the >> bells and whistles. > > A P4 with a newer video card (GF 8800 GT say) can handle a high level of > graphics in say Crysis 2 or Mass Effect 2 (to name two that i have > thoroughly tested). Confirmed. P4 3.4GHz, 2GB DDR, AGP video card (i.e. - *not even close* to new) - plays ME2 (also plays ME3 but can't render the sky outdoors so things look odd. Indoors, everything is normal). > Even in gaming, upgrade-itis is excessive. Agreed. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 10:59:02 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:59:02 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:24 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/13/2012 06:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Sat, 13 Oct 2012, TeoZ wrote: >>> >>> Where have you been, computer games have been driving upgrades since >>> the DOS era on PC and one of the major reasons people purchased >>> computers since the Commodore/Atari days. >> >> In the EARLY days of the 5150, "BUSINESS" users went with monochrome. >> Then they came back to "upgrade" to color (to run games, but they would >> never admit it). To make use of what was there, "256 color accounting" >> was developed. > > Hmm, I don't know - I think a lot went with color because that's what they > saw their peers/competitors doing. They didn't need it, but once a few had > it, everyone had to have it, because it looked prettier and was "more > modern". My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around with at home". The following technologies existed abundantly outside of the IBM-compatible PC realm before being adopted one-by-one with the claim (suddenly) that these were "must have" technologies. o Color o Sound o Network Interface o Graphics co-processors o Multitasking OS o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' I just remember a lot of "oh... your machine isn't suitable for business computing; it has X and that means it's only good for playing games." Each of those technologies eventually worked their way into the baseline for "the PC" and now, nobody could imagine a "real computer" without it. -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 11:25:10 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:25:10 -0500 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210151307.q9FD7QLG16122042@floodgap.com> References: <201210151307.q9FD7QLG16122042@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <507C38E6.3040703@gmail.com> On 10/15/2012 08:07 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Ok, but when it's upgraded to a 700 series the DIN-plug for the Domain >> keyboard would be disappeared. > > The DIN plug is definitely present. So I guess I have a 425t in a 715 case > that still has 425 guts. Guess I should take that sticker off. ;) But the back still says 425t. I still think you have 425t guts in a 425t case, but someone's slapped a 715 decal on the front. Office joke, perhaps, or deceptive seller at some point in the machine's history... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 11:31:45 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:31:45 -0500 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <507C3A71.9070805@gmail.com> On 10/14/2012 06:51 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On Oct 14, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > >> PA-Risc machines don't have the apollo label on the box. > > Yes, they do. (Many of the earlier workstations do, up to and including > ones from the 715 era.) Indeed. I've had a couple of offers of Apollo hardware in the past which has turned out to just be PA-RISC stuff. The latter are nice boxes, but not particularly inspiring. > Some of the confusion about this machine surely stems from the fact that > HP offered an official hardware upgrade for the 400 chassis to PA-RISC. > It consisted of a normal 700-series mainboard with some mechanical bits > changed for fit. Then the machine became like what you see here. Really? I'm amazed that made any kind of financial sense; 'real' Apollos weren't exactly widespread, and the cost of design / tooling / training / marketing surely negated what few sales they likely made. Why not just offer a discount on a regular 700-series system? cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 11:26:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:26:57 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious > machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around > with at home". The following technologies existed abundantly outside > of the IBM-compatible PC realm before being adopted one-by-one > with the claim (suddenly) that these were "must have" technologies. > > o Color > o Sound > o Network Interface > o Graphics co-processors > o Multitasking OS > o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were typically designated as "toys". Color, sound, graphics chips and alternate input devices are obvious candidates, but aside from OS-9 for the 6809, I'm drawing a blank on the other two. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 11:29:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:29:21 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:01 AM, Eivind Evensen wrote: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I > don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. Be sure to flush your cache every 10,000,000,000,000 cycles to keep your floating points from sticking together. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 11:29:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: <20121015092835.P89190@shell.lmi.net> > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Eivind Evensen wrote: > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I > don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. I never do any maintenance, other than adding more computrons. Maybe that's the problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 11:32:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20121015093124.L89190@shell.lmi.net> > > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I > > don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rik Bos wrote: > Mineral or synthetic oil ? purists call for well whale oil From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 11:44:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121015094243.A89190@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > >>>> components. > >>> a "pentium" laptop ? > >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized > >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > A car battery should power that sort of thing for a reasonable amount > of time; for some very quick value of "reasonable". > you'd probably have to carry that in a backpack, but as long > as the major computing portion could fit on your lap (for a dubious > definition of "fit"), you could probably still call it a laptop. Is it still a "laptop", when it is tethered to a truck for power? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 11:48:43 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:48:43 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:26 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious >> machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around >> with at home"... >> >> o Color >> o Sound >> o Network Interface >> o Graphics co-processors >> o Multitasking OS >> o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' > > Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of > network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were > typically designated as "toys". Color, sound, graphics chips and > alternate input devices are obvious candidates, but aside from > OS-9 for the 6809, I'm drawing a blank on the other two. Networking is a bit of a stretch for "home toy machines", but even a 128K Mac came with AppleTalk/LocalTalk from day one. It didn't take off right away, but the support was there for it. I'd say it became a useful, desirable feature once the Apple Laserwriter I came out - a built-in network to share a $5000 resource with every Mac in the room. As for multitasking OS, I'd have to trot out the Amiga in 1985. Completely derided as a "toy machine" by both the PC and Mac crowds, again, from day one, multitasking OS. I can't find a reference to the original quote, but sometime around 1985 or 1986, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were deflecting calls for each of their products to support "true" multitasking (vs the existing "Switcher" or "TSR" mechanisms that let you push one app to the side to run another in the foreground) with claims that you "couldn't do it" on a machine that had less than 2MB (that being more than most people had in front of them at the time). At the time, my interpretation was more along the lines of "it's too hard to wedge our code onto the machines of today, so you'll get it when we get around to doing it and after you buy bigger hardware". The end result was the same - eventually, machines got larger, code got larger, too, but desktop multitasking OSes are the norm. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 11:51:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121015094543.A89190@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious > machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around > with at home". that matches my perception, and what I was told by the owner of the local "Computerland" > The following technologies existed abundantly outside > of the IBM-compatible PC realm before being adopted one-by-one > with the claim (suddenly) that these were "must have" technologies. > o Color > o Sound > o Network Interface > o Graphics co-processors > o Multitasking OS > o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' When the Lisa was advertised, it was with toddlers playing with it on the living room floor. The PC had many similar ads. At the time that the PC came out (August 1981), CGA and MDA were offered at the same time. The lack of an aftermarket MDP compatible monitor V using composit B&W made CGA cheaper! The analog input adapter (joystick interface) was offered at the time of release, but no joysticks (until YEARS later) - but the docs had a drawing that was clearly and obviously the joystick of the RS Coco. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 12:04:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> > >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized > >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > I dunno... most P5 based laptops only got what, 30-45 minutes of actual > run-time anyway, and you could fit a couple of decent sized SLAs into a > luggable chassis without too much difficulty, so you should be able to get > at least a half hour or so easy ;) You are going to need an electric vehicle Lithium Ion battery pack. Maybe several. Does it pass Ethan's "laptop" definition if you can't lift the battery? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 12:06:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:06:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> John, John, John... On 10/15/2012 10:00 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I'd love one, but I don't know how I'd get down there to get it > without my wife noticing. > > > On 15 October 2012 14:44, Adrian Graham wrote: >> 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap pile along >> with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with complete keyboards! >> >> -- >> adrian/witchy >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 12:09:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:09:01 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2012 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > As for multitasking OS, I'd have to trot out the Amiga in 1985. > Completely derided as a "toy machine" by both the PC and Mac crowds, > again, from day one, multitasking OS. I can't find a reference to the > original quote, but sometime around 1985 or 1986, Steve Jobs and Bill > Gates were deflecting calls for each of their products to support > "true" multitasking (vs the existing "Switcher" or "TSR" mechanisms > that let you push one app to the side to run another in the > foreground) with claims that you "couldn't do it" on a machine that > had less than 2MB (that being more than most people had in front of > them at the time). At the time, my interpretation was more along the > lines of "it's too hard to we Had they never heard of S/360?! I know damn well they'd heard of PDP-10 and PDP-11 systems...all of which were doing damn fine multitasking with a fraction of 2MB. Agreed on the Amiga...preemptive multitasking and a full GUI on a floppy-based system with 512KB of RAM? That's pretty tough to beat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 12:10:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20121015100550.P89883@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > My favorite part about that particular line of thinking was when some > local politicians decided to make that explicit in legislation (shortly > after our local terrorist event ten years ago). I met Eldridge Cleaver twice. When he was organizing the Black Panthers at Merritt College, and then again, when he was scavenging recyclables for a living. He ASKED me whether he could have the cans from the box on my curb. He explained that he was having a "major battle" with the city; the city claimed that recyclables at the curb belonged to the city, and that individual collectors were "poaching". So, I put a box at the curb explicitly labelled "Anybody EXCEPT the city". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 15 12:13:55 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 11:13:55 -0600 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507C4453.5030609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2012 10:26 AM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of > network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were > typically designated as "toys". Color, sound, graphics chips and > alternate input devices are obvious candidates, but aside from > OS-9 for the 6809, I'm drawing a blank on the other two. OS-9 was a fluke. Rom Basic is the OS for the computers of that era. > > - Dave > Ben. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:17:17 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:17:17 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 13:04, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >> >> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) >> > battery life? > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: >> I dunno... most P5 based laptops only got what, 30-45 minutes of actual >> run-time anyway, and you could fit a couple of decent sized SLAs into a >> luggable chassis without too much difficulty, so you should be able to get >> at least a half hour or so easy ;) > > You are going to need an electric vehicle Lithium Ion battery pack. Maybe > several. > > Does it pass Ethan's "laptop" definition if you can't lift the battery? > > As long as when you strap said battery (or batteries as the case may be) to your back your spine doesn't implode/exit your body at high velocity, it can be categorized as a laptop. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:17:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:17:18 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47C590A9-4512-427E-9D9E-70728ABD8F78@gmail.com> On Oct 15, 2012, at 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:26 PM, David Riley wrote: >> On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious >>> machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around >>> with at home"... >>> >>> o Color >>> o Sound >>> o Network Interface >>> o Graphics co-processors >>> o Multitasking OS >>> o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' >> >> Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of >> network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were >> typically designated as "toys". Color, sound, graphics chips and >> alternate input devices are obvious candidates, but aside from >> OS-9 for the 6809, I'm drawing a blank on the other two. > > Networking is a bit of a stretch for "home toy machines", but even a > 128K Mac came with AppleTalk/LocalTalk from day one. It didn't take > off right away, but the support was there for it. I'd say it became a > useful, desirable feature once the Apple Laserwriter I came out - a > built-in network to share a $5000 resource with every Mac in the room. Yeah, I guess I didn't think of that as a "toy", partly because I've spent the last few months working on a better LocalTalk<-> Ethernet bridge than the ones that existed 10 years ago. I did know plenty of people who thought of Macs as expensive toys; most of them probably still do. > As for multitasking OS, I'd have to trot out the Amiga in 1985. > Completely derided as a "toy machine" by both the PC and Mac crowds, > again, from day one, multitasking OS. I can't find a reference to the > original quote, but sometime around 1985 or 1986, Steve Jobs and Bill > Gates were deflecting calls for each of their products to support > "true" multitasking (vs the existing "Switcher" or "TSR" mechanisms > that let you push one app to the side to run another in the > foreground) with claims that you "couldn't do it" on a machine that > had less than 2MB (that being more than most people had in front of > them at the time). At the time, my interpretation was more along the > lines of "it's too hard to wedge our code onto the machines of today, > so you'll get it when we get around to doing it and after you buy > bigger hardware". The end result was the same - eventually, machines > got larger, code got larger, too, but desktop multitasking OSes are > the norm. It might have had less of a reputation as a toy if Commodore had taken it seriously, too. I worked with a guy who worked on the Amiga OS in the early days, too... he had about the same opinion of ("Classic") Mac OS' multitasking features as George Carlin did of baseball. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:23:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:23:18 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 17:26, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 15, 2012, at 11:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> My recollection is that there was a perceptual divide between "serious >> machines for serious business" and "toy machines for playing around >> with at home". The following technologies existed abundantly outside >> of the IBM-compatible PC realm before being adopted one-by-one >> with the claim (suddenly) that these were "must have" technologies. >> >> o Color >> o Sound >> o Network Interface >> o Graphics co-processors >> o Multitasking OS >> o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' > > Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of > network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were > typically designated as "toys". Multitasking: CamelForth for the ZX Spectrum (& other low-end Z80 machines) could do this in the very early 1980s - indeed it was one of its selling points. I think it also had a very primitive implementation of text-based windows on screen. As with the other 8-bit Forths I heard of - and Chuck Moore's ColorForth to this day - it was/is *both* a programming language *and* an OS. Network interfaces: Econet for the BBC Mico? Localtalk on the original Apple Macintosh? Or even the once-famed "$25 Network" for the PC, which like several other early peer-to-peer LANs in the mid-1980s significantly predated Ethernet's availability as an affordable system. Also see: SAGE MainLAN, whose developer I met at a birthday party earlier this year. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:26:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:26:19 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121015094243.A89190@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> <20121015094243.A89190@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <82713A42-F555-4C64-8F5C-9C5124CEBB23@gmail.com> On Oct 15, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete >>>>>> components. >>>>> a "pentium" laptop ? >>>> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized >>>> boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) >>> battery life? > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: >> A car battery should power that sort of thing for a reasonable amount >> of time; > > for some very quick value of "reasonable". Ah, yes, I did the math in my head and may have left off an order of magnitude or 3. Assuming a 100-Ah battery (not abnormal for an American-sized car, I guess) and a million transistors running a steady 10mA each (not out of the question, but may be off by an order of magnitude if you want it to run at any real speed): 100Ah / 10,000A = .01 hours = .6 minutes = 36 seconds The real key would be to see whether you could boot to DOS before the jumper cables set anything on fire. Also, looking it up, the approximate transistor count of the Pentium was 3 million, not 1 million, so perhaps it's really more like 10 seconds. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 12:32:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 10:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121015101905.F89883@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> o Network Interface > >> o Multitasking OS > >> o Input devices other than traditional 'keyboard' earliest PC implementations: There was a commercially available (home business?) interface to communicate between two 5150s through the cassette port! Even a Y connector to be able to connect more than two! That product, of course, died a year later when the 5160 came out (with no cassette port) There was even a classroom version! (based on an earlier TRS-80 product?) By 1983, Orchid (and others) were marketing PC networks. AFTER we had performance and reliability issues, we found out that we were the first ones to go 16 or more computers on the "network". TSRs were used by users to implement extremely crude multi-tasking in MS-DOS. What else was INT-28h for? Borland's Sidekick, and the later Central Point PC-Tools. I used PC-Tools for my business telephone log, etc. But, the package intercepted the critical error handler, and IGNORED critical errors, such as disk I/O errors! Rather than an "Abort, Retry, Ignore?" notification of a problem, it would simply report success and LOSE the sector being written! Oh, well. Windoze came out soon after (crude pre-emptive multi-tasking) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:38:46 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:38:46 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Does it pass Ethan's "laptop" definition if you can't lift the battery? My laptop definition?!? I don't remember supplying one. How about... o Small enough not to crush the user's lower limbs (weight) o Doesn't run hot enough to ignite user's pants (thermal issues) o No longer causes male sterility (EMI emissions) Any other thresholds to cross? -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:41:25 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:41:25 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 18:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Agreed on the Amiga...preemptive multitasking and a full GUI on a > floppy-based system with 512KB of RAM? That's pretty tough to beat. The legendary QNX demo floppy? http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html http://onqpl.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/now-on-youtube-incredible-144m-qnx.html Complete OS & multitasking GUI, with desktop, TCP/IP stack, file manager, text editor & complete web browser, /plus web server/, all on a single bootable 1.4MB PC floppy diskette. Boot off the disk, go online, surf. It was pretty amazing. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 12:48:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:48:15 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2012, at 1:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/15/2012 12:48 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> As for multitasking OS, I'd have to trot out the Amiga in 1985. >> Completely derided as a "toy machine" by both the PC and Mac crowds, >> again, from day one, multitasking OS. I can't find a reference to the >> original quote, but sometime around 1985 or 1986, Steve Jobs and Bill >> Gates were deflecting calls for each of their products to support >> "true" multitasking (vs the existing "Switcher" or "TSR" mechanisms >> that let you push one app to the side to run another in the >> foreground) with claims that you "couldn't do it" on a machine that >> had less than 2MB (that being more than most people had in front of >> them at the time). At the time, my interpretation was more along the >> lines of "it's too hard to we > > Had they never heard of S/360?! I know damn well they'd heard of > PDP-10 and PDP-11 systems...all of which were doing damn fine > multitasking with a fraction of 2MB. Those systems also all had virtual memory subsystems; the Mac and the PC didn't have MMUs until the 68020 and 286, respectively (and even then, the Apple/Motorola PMMU kind of sucked, and 286 Protected Mode wasn't quite real MMU action). All that is not to say that doing multitasking without paged MMUs in a small memory footprint is impossible, since plenty of OSes did so, but it's a barrier to the lazy programmer. - Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:28:06 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:28:06 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9BBDA4DCFADA4892A5F4D133113C8787@G4UGMT41> I would be interested in one. I am in Manchester... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 15 October 2012 14:45 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? > > > 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap > pile along with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with > complete keyboards! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer > collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Oct 15 13:31:17 2012 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:31:17 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <507C5675.9020605@ubanproductions.com> On 10/14/12 8:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Why? (if you want to go into it) > > The requirements are basically: > > Vol 0.7V max into 70 mA load > Vil max 1.3V > Vih min 1.7V > minimum 5 ns rise and fall times (10% to 90%) > 80uA max leakage at 3.8V, 10uA max at 0V (with Vcc from 0.0V to 5.25V) > 10pF max capacitance > > My attempts to design anything that meets this failed on either the leakage current, capacitive > loading, or both. However, someone who is more skilled with analog design could probably come up > with something satisfactory. > > Even the National DS8641 and DS3662 didn't quite meet the requirements. It is unclear whether the > ones DEC used had been screened to better specs (either by National or DEC). > > > With a discrete design, the propagation delay is likely to go up. Is there a maximum prop delay criteria? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 13:34:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:34:27 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507C5733.2050803@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2012 01:48 PM, David Riley wrote: > Those systems also all had virtual memory subsystems; the Mac and > the PC didn't have MMUs until the 68020 and 286, respectively (and > even then, the Apple/Motorola PMMU kind of sucked, and 286 Protected > Mode wasn't quite real MMU action). All that is not to say that > doing multitasking without paged MMUs in a small memory footprint > is impossible, since plenty of OSes did so, but it's a barrier to > the lazy programmer. Very true. I do multitasking all day long without an MMU, on ARM7s, with (on the big ones) 64KB. Works great here! I see no *real* excuse other than laziness. There were some highly talented programmers back then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:42:24 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:42:24 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507C5910.2080805@gmail.com> On 10/15/2012 12:23 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Network interfaces: Econet for the BBC Mico? Localtalk on the original > Apple Macintosh? I expect that those are two of the more abundant ones (to tie in with Ethan's "existed abundantly outside of the IBM-compatible PC realm" claim) - but I think that lots of "home computer" manufacturers either gave thought to networking potential right from the start, or did so soon after (e.g. ZNet on RML, ZX Network on Sinclair hardware etc.) At least in the UK, the education sector and the potential for using machines in the classroom seemed to be the main driving force behind it; I'm not sure if that was true elsewhere. There was also a strong "use the right tool for the job" attitude in the UK which saw many "home" machines put into business service (largely on cost/familiarity grounds I think), and that possibly played a part, too. I'm not so sure about the multitasking angle though, at least until the likes of the Amiga came along; there just wasn't the need. You watched video on your TV, you listened to music on your stereo, and you used the computer for whichever computing task was most important :-) cheers Jules From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:46:17 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:46:17 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507C5675.9020605@ubanproductions.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> <507C5675.9020605@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > On 10/14/12 8:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I wrote: >>> meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Why? (if you want to go into it) >> >> The requirements are basically: >> >> Vol 0.7V max into 70 mA load >> Vil max 1.3V >> Vih min 1.7V >> minimum 5 ns rise and fall times (10% to 90%) >> 80uA max leakage at 3.8V, 10uA max at 0V (with Vcc from 0.0V to 5.25V) >> 10pF max capacitance >> >> My attempts to design anything that meets this failed on either the leakage current, capacitive >> loading, or both. However, someone who is more skilled with analog design could probably come up >> with something satisfactory. >> >> Even the National DS8641 and DS3662 didn't quite meet the requirements. It is unclear whether the >> ones DEC used had been screened to better specs (either by National or DEC). >> >> >> > > With a discrete design, the propagation delay is likely to go up. Is there > a maximum prop delay criteria? For Qbus, at least, the drivers and receivers are specced at 35 ns max prop delay. That's not out of the question for a discrete BJT; a 2N4401 has a Td of 15 ns, though you'd have to be careful not to saturate in order to maintain decent switching times. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 13:55:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:55:04 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C5733.2050803@neurotica.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> <507C5733.2050803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 15, 2012, at 2:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/15/2012 01:48 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Those systems also all had virtual memory subsystems; the Mac and >> the PC didn't have MMUs until the 68020 and 286, respectively (and >> even then, the Apple/Motorola PMMU kind of sucked, and 286 Protected >> Mode wasn't quite real MMU action). All that is not to say that >> doing multitasking without paged MMUs in a small memory footprint >> is impossible, since plenty of OSes did so, but it's a barrier to >> the lazy programmer. > > Very true. I do multitasking all day long without an MMU, on ARM7s, > with (on the big ones) 64KB. Works great here! I see no *real* excuse > other than laziness. There were some highly talented programmers back then. Highly talented programmers, yes. Highly talented program managers were (and remain) hard to find. A related interesting tiny multitasking OS that I've worked on a bit (currently stalled) to add Coldfire support is AtomThreads. The primary implementations are on tiny 8-bit machines, and it's been a nice codebase to work on. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:07:56 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:07:56 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015093124.L89190@shell.lmi.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> <20121015093124.L89190@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507C5F0C.7010707@gmail.com> On 10/15/2012 11:32 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" >>> I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I >>> don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rik Bos wrote: >> Mineral or synthetic oil ? > > purists call for well whale oil Well nobody would want to put unwell whale oil in their computer, would they? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 14:05:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:05:10 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507C432D.6090601@neurotica.com> <507C5733.2050803@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507C5E66.5020402@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2012 02:55 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Those systems also all had virtual memory subsystems; the Mac and >>> the PC didn't have MMUs until the 68020 and 286, respectively (and >>> even then, the Apple/Motorola PMMU kind of sucked, and 286 Protected >>> Mode wasn't quite real MMU action). All that is not to say that >>> doing multitasking without paged MMUs in a small memory footprint >>> is impossible, since plenty of OSes did so, but it's a barrier to >>> the lazy programmer. >> >> Very true. I do multitasking all day long without an MMU, on ARM7s, >> with (on the big ones) 64KB. Works great here! I see no *real* excuse >> other than laziness. There were some highly talented programmers back then. > > Highly talented programmers, yes. > > Highly talented program managers were (and remain) hard to find. True. Suits will ruin everything if given the chance. Thinking people just need to start treating them like the overhead expense that they are. > A related interesting tiny multitasking OS that I've worked on a > bit (currently stalled) to add Coldfire support is AtomThreads. > The primary implementations are on tiny 8-bit machines, and it's > been a nice codebase to work on. I've not seen that one. I will check it out! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 14:08:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:08:28 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C5F0C.7010707@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> <20121015093124.L89190@shell.lmi.net> <507C5F0C.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507C5F2C.1060200@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2012 03:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>>> On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" >>>> I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I >>>> don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. >> >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rik Bos wrote: >>> Mineral or synthetic oil ? >> >> purists call for well whale oil > > Well nobody would want to put unwell whale oil in their computer, would > they? At least it doesn't go rancid.. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Oct 15 14:24:49 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:24:49 +0100 Subject: Manchester Baby Message-ID: I've been meaning to try and scan this for ages ... Mention of this in the article linked to from the love letter post made me remember it. Here's a news article about the Manchester Baby, from 1978. ("30 years ago today..") http://www.irrelevant.com/manchesterbaby/ Apologies for the poor formatting; original was almost unreadable in places. (Not helped by lots of brown sellotape holding it into my old scrapbook!) At some point I'll find the time to tidy it up. Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 14:46:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121015124518.G94201@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Does it pass Ethan's "laptop" definition if you can't lift the battery? > My laptop definition?!? I don't remember supplying one. How about... > o Small enough not to crush the user's lower limbs (weight) > o Doesn't run hot enough to ignite user's pants (thermal issues) > o No longer causes male sterility (EMI emissions) > Any other thresholds to cross? I stand corrected! It was EVAN who declared that a "laptop" MUST run on batteries. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rickb at bensene.com Mon Oct 15 14:58:46 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:58:46 -0700 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: > >>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > >>>> components. > >>> a "pentium" laptop ? > > > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT > >> sized boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M transistors. A little math (and this is all approximations and done conservatively) shows what might result. Such a CPU, using small-outline surface mount leadless transistors on 12x9 circuit boards with relatively tight design rules and multi-layer boards, would take something like 32 boards just for the transistors. Add in the overhead of other discrete components and you are looking at something like 81 boards (assuming roughly 2.5 discrete components per transistor). Not allowing any room for chassis, backplane, board spacing (for cooling), cooling, and interconnect, the CPU alone would a cube roughly 21 inches on a side. Add in overhead for the stuff listed, you'd probably be looking at a cube 2 feet on each side. The CPU by itself could probably be packed into some kind of backpack, but it'd be heavy. That's just for the CPU. Then you'd need RAM, ROM, IDE storage interface, keyboard interface, mouse interface, serial, parallel, floppy disk, a video subsystem, and LCD panel. Just the electronics for all of these things, assuming the use of ICs of the time rather than trying to make them all using discrete components, and it's my guess that the result would be too large and too heavy to carry...not even considering what it'd take to power the beast. If you tried to do everything with discrete components(except the hard disk and LCD display) -- well...it'd be more like something (a pure guess) like 12 or so 7-foot 19" datacenter racks full of boards, and the interconnect would be a real nightmare. Power distribution and cooling would be "interesting". Hardly laptop, much less "luggable". From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 15 15:04:37 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:04:37 -0700 Subject: PLEASE CHANGE YOUR SUBJECT LINE (Re: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: <20121015124518.G94201@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> <20121015124518.G94201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507C6C55.7040701@bitsavers.org> On 10/15/12 12:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It was EVAN who declared that a "laptop" MUST run on batteries. > There were a couple of message I ACTUALLY CARED ABOUT on under this subject today. Please have the courtesy, if you are going to continue posting this crap, to CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 15:14:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121015131132.C94201@shell.lmi.net> > > > Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with > > > discrete components. > > a "pentium" laptop ? On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility features > used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M transistors. Is it supported by current software? > Such a CPU, using small-outline surface mount leadless transistors on > 12x9 circuit boards with relatively tight design rules and multi-layer > boards, would take something like 32 boards just for the transistors. > Add in the overhead of other discrete components and you are looking at > something like 81 boards (assuming roughly 2.5 discrete components per > transistor). Not allowing any room for chassis, backplane, board > spacing (for cooling), cooling, and interconnect, the CPU alone would a > cube roughly 21 inches on a side. Add in overhead for the stuff listed, > you'd probably be looking at a cube 2 feet on each side. The CPU by > itself could probably be packed into some kind of backpack, but it'd be > heavy. > That's just for the CPU. > > Then you'd need RAM, ROM, IDE storage interface, keyboard interface, > mouse interface, serial, parallel, floppy disk, a video subsystem, and > LCD panel. Just the electronics for all of these things, assuming the > use of ICs of the time rather than trying to make them all using > discrete components, and it's my guess that the result would be too > large and too heavy to carry...not even considering what it'd take to > power the beast. > If you tried to do everything with discrete components(except the hard > disk and LCD display) -- well...it'd be more like something (a pure > guess) like 12 or so 7-foot 19" datacenter racks full of boards, and the > interconnect would be a real nightmare. Power distribution and cooling > would be "interesting". Hardly laptop, much less "luggable". Don't forget the interface to the 15 000 floppy drives! Thank you for doing the math! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 15:18:38 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PLEASE CHANGE YOUR SUBJECT LINE (Re: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: <507C6C55.7040701@bitsavers.org> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121015100305.Q89883@shell.lmi.net> <20121015124518.G94201@shell.lmi.net> <507C6C55.7040701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121015131532.G94201@shell.lmi.net> > > It was EVAN who declared that a "laptop" MUST run on batteries. On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Al Kossow wrote: > There were a couple of message I ACTUALLY CARED ABOUT on under this subject > today. Please have the courtesy, if you are going to continue posting > this crap, to CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE I apologize for my failure to properly label this tangent into completely orthogonal subject matter, including the [in my opinion facinating] discussion of just how impossible it would be to build current technology (pentium laptop) using discrete components. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 15 15:28:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121015131132.C94201@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> <20121015131132.C94201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210152028.QAA17351@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility >> features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M >> transistors. > Is it supported by current software? I believe every NetBSD runs on it (well, every NetBSD recent enough; some of the earlier releases probably predate it and might not). I'm not sure how much of an answer that is. And, since when does this list care about about "current software"? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 15 15:30:16 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:30:16 +0200 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121015223016.b60cac42.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 14 Oct 2012 11:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I am not trying to be confusing. Sorry, I missed the right words. (As you may have noticed, english is not my native language.) I meant somthing along "Don't _be_ confused". Or "Don't _get_ confused." > That's legitimately the unit I have. On > the front it says, HP Apollo with a sticker "Model 715t/33." On the back > side it says A1630 425t. It has an Domain keyboard port and an HP-HIL port. The enclousure is definitely a 400t / 425t. There has been mentioned a PA-RISC upgrade. I am not aware of this. But it well may have existed. So, in the end: Open the box and have a sharp look. Here is a picture of the 425t / 433t mainboard. Notice the M68040 in the midle-top: http://www.supervinx.com/Retrocomputer/HP/425t/HP-UX/000-01013640.JPG IIRC the 400t uses the same mainboard, but with a large, L-shaped M68030 mezzanine board in the 68040 socket. This is a 715 box: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Hp9000_715.jpg If your box really is a 425t to PA-RISC upgraded machine: Please take some pictures and get some information up to http://www.openpa.net/ > So what do I have here? A Chimera? ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 15 15:40:54 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:40:54 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CA5D.7080300@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20121015224054.c79f1ce2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:34:06 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: > Debian also dropped support for the Alpha processor in 'squeeze' (6.0). Well. There is Tru64. I liked it when I used it as my day-to-day desktop OS about 10 years ago. (I switched to an Octane running IRIX to see, feel, taste somthing new.) There is still the VeryMuchStrange OS... ;-) And of cause there is NetBSD/alpha! :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 15 15:46:53 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:46:53 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> Message-ID: <20121015204653.GB26555@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eivind Evensen once stated: > On Sat, Oct 13, 2012 at 04:14:21PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On the other hand, I'm offered PCs that "got slow" or "got viruses" > > I always change oil twice a year to avoid computers getting slow, I > don't want to risk the bearings on the processor axle to wear out. Do you remember to clean out the bit bucket every 16,777,216 bytes? -spc (hate when that overflows ... ) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 15 15:51:27 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:51:27 +0200 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121015225127.cb08612f.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012 12:26:57 -0400 David Riley wrote: > Not disputing anything, but I'm curious about early examples of > network interfaces and multitasking OSes for machines which were > typically designated as "toys". Ever played MIDI-Maze on an Atari ST? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 15 16:32:01 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:32:01 -0600 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507C5F0C.7010707@gmail.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <20121015090122.GA95317@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> <001201cdaabb$86ab1e20$94015a60$@xs4all.nl> <20121015093124.L89190@shell.lmi.net> <507C5F0C.7010707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507C80D1.2040703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/15/2012 1:07 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Well nobody would want to put unwell whale oil in their computer, would > they? Now when you want a flying toaster, there arn't any. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 16:38:08 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:38:08 -0400 Subject: unibus to Laptops... In-Reply-To: <20121015131132.C94201@shell.lmi.net> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <20121014154812.O57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> <19B24F4B-EB0A-4E02-B234-22B13A10E9C9@gmail.com> <20121015131132.C94201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507C8240.2030809@verizon.net> On 10/15/2012 04:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with >>>> discrete components. >>> a "pentium" laptop ? > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: >> A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility features >> used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M transistors. > Is it supported by current software? > I have a P166/mmx running current linux ( maxed on ram at 512mb) no problem. Even a 486 runs linux still and XP!. A 386 would easily fill several racks if discrete and t would clock at maybe 5mhz. >> Such a CPU, using small-outline surface mount leadless transistors on >> 12x9 circuit boards with relatively tight design rules and multi-layer >> boards, would take something like 32 boards just for the transistors. >> Add in the overhead of other discrete components and you are looking at >> something like 81 boards (assuming roughly 2.5 discrete components per >> transistor). Not allowing any room for chassis, backplane, board >> spacing (for cooling), cooling, and interconnect, the CPU alone would a >> cube roughly 21 inches on a side. Add in overhead for the stuff listed, >> you'd probably be looking at a cube 2 feet on each side. The CPU by >> itself could probably be packed into some kind of backpack, but it'd be >> heavy. >> That's just for the CPU. >> >> Then you'd need RAM, ROM, IDE storage interface, keyboard interface, >> mouse interface, serial, parallel, floppy disk, a video subsystem, and >> LCD panel. Just the electronics for all of these things, assuming the >> use of ICs of the time rather than trying to make them all using >> discrete components, and it's my guess that the result would be too >> large and too heavy to carry...not even considering what it'd take to >> power the beast. >> If you tried to do everything with discrete components(except the hard >> disk and LCD display) -- well...it'd be more like something (a pure >> guess) like 12 or so 7-foot 19" datacenter racks full of boards, and the >> interconnect would be a real nightmare. Power distribution and cooling >> would be "interesting". Hardly laptop, much less "luggable". > Don't forget the interface to the 15 000 floppy drives! > > Thank you for doing the math! > If you did it the PDP-8 would look small same for the early PDP-8s. Can we talk about the power supply... nah that would be silly. Allison > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From rickb at bensene.com Mon Oct 15 17:11:45 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:11:45 -0700 Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) Message-ID: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: > > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility > >features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M transistors. And Fred replied: > Is it supported by current software? Kind of. It'd probably run Windows 98(it would definitely run Window 95) OK, but nothing newer from Microsoft as far as I can tell. Memory limitations within the confines of a P166MMX laptop of the day wouldn't allow anything newer to run. However, it would run various flavors of Linux or BSD without much fuss. I picked the 166MMX for my example as I have an old Dell laptop with a 166MMX, 640x480x256 color LCD, CDROM drive, 64MB of RAM, serial & parallel ports, as well as an early Soundblaster-compatible sound system in it that I use as a console for my PDP 8/e and PDP 11/34A systems. It is rock-solid reliable, and runs an older (late-90's) Red Hat Linux just fine. Don't know how it'd do on a current *BSD or Linux, though...if stripped down to eliminate all the GUI stuff, it just might be able to run something current, though it'd be pretty stripped. I think that if we never developed large-scale MOS and CMOS devices, and were stuck tech-wise with either small discrete transistor, or small-scale bipolar IC technology, we'd probably be lugging around "backpack" computers that have the rough computing power of a mid-1970's minicomputer, that'd run batteries that could be carried around for a few minutes -- enough time to perhaps to move between power outlets without shutting down. You'd end up having pretty well-developed leg, lower back, and shoulder musculature carrying such a beast around. TCP/IP Networking (not to mention wireless) not included. Of course, without the tech that came from LSI, we wouldn't have high-resolution LCD displays, either. Nothing like lugging a CRT around. The display would probably be a CRT or some kind of character-oriented plasma panel (Burroughs Self-Scan?) -- both big power hogs. Maybe the world would be better this way :-) At least we wouldn't have people trying to read their Email and TXTs on a cell phone while driving. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:18:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:18:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Oct 14, 12 11:19:06 pm Message-ID: > > I find myself in need of a new desoldering pump. I found a number on the > Farnell site, anyone have any recommendations for a good one that does not > cost more than =A325ish (about $40) and for which I can get spare nozzles? The 'standard' one that Farbnell sell (I think it has a green anodised body, or at least mine does) is what I use. It seems to work well. And IIRC it meets your cost requirement. You can get spare nozzles (and pump washers), but be careful. I bought my pump about 15 eyars ago. When I got some new nozles for it lsat year, I found they'd changed the thread, and theat the new nozzles did not fit my old pump. No biggie, after all it's jsut the PTFE bit that wears out, so I pressed the remains of that from the end cap of an old and a new nozzle and fitted the new PTFEW to the original cap. Of course that fitted. Incidentally, with all desolderign pumps, it's worth taking them apart from time to time (and when new) and putting a smear of petroleum jelly ('vaseline') on the pump washer, O-rings, etc. It improves the seal no end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 17:01:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:01:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121014175554.B57246@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 14, 12 05:56:17 pm Message-ID: > > > >> Of course. Anything done with chips can also be done with discrete > > >> components. > > > a "pentium" laptop ? > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > > Since nobody said how big the board could be... Multiple full AT sized > > boards in a backplane for a luggable Pentium "laptop"? :) > > battery life? Nobody said how big the battery could be either :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:40:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:40:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oh, also, 5.25" PC floppy drives In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Oct 14, 12 07:44:26 pm Message-ID: > > Perhaps we should just accept that '1.2M' and '1.44M' are names for such > > drives without tryign to decode them any further. Yes, there may be > > idiotic reasons for such names, but can we ignoe thaose? > > All you really need is a unique identifier, after all. Excctly. The other idea would eb to use the Teac suffix leters, and call them 'Type G' (and 'Type H' for '1.44M' 3.5" drives. But I susepct that would eb more confusing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 17:13:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:13:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210151308.q9FD8V0S14221422@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Oct 15, 12 06:08:31 am Message-ID: > > I also keep my hard disk well inflated. I just take it down to the gas > station and connect the hose to the air hole and inflate it to 35psi cold. Being serious (Ha!) for a moment, the Micropolis 1200 HDAs (as used in PERQ 2T1s Tektronix 8560s, etc) has a Schrader-type valve on it. It has the normal screw-off cap and what looks like a standard vavle core in it. I have no idea what it's for. The HDA cannot be presurised in normal use, there is a breather filter. One suggestio nwas that clean ar was squred in there when the HDA was made, forcing any resitual dust onto the brether filter. Any other ideas? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 17:25:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:25:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015092835.P89190@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 15, 12 09:29:30 am Message-ID: > I never do any maintenance, other than adding more computrons. Maybe ^^^^^^^^^^^ First tiem I red it, I red that as 'Compactrons' I am getting old... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 17:31:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:31:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015094543.A89190@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 15, 12 09:51:44 am Message-ID: > The analog input adapter (joystick interface) was offered at the time of > release, but no joysticks (until YEARS later) - but the docs had a drawing > that was clearly and obviously the joystick of the RS Coco. > Which wouldn't ahve wored without intenral wiring changes (not just a conencotr adapter). The CoCo jopsticks used 3-terminal pots as a potential divider acorss the 5V supply, the slider goes ot ta voltage ADC input on the CoCo. The IBM (and Apple ][) joysticks are variable resistors (2 terminal) used as part of the timing network on a 555 monostable (actually a 558, which is a quad 555, wired in monostable mode only). You would ahve to separate the 'bottom end' of the 2 pots in the joystick for it to work proeperly. Of coruse it's entirely possible that IBM were planning on selling joysticks made by the same company that made the CoCo ones, but wired fro the 5150 adapter. -tony From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Oct 15 17:50:13 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:50:13 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> Hi everyone, Please have a look and consider signing. http://www.change.org/petitions/apple-inc-create-a-public-venue-visitor-s-center Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 18:24:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121015162312.M3769@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I have no idea what it's for. The HDA cannot be presurised in normal use, > there is a breather filter. One suggestio nwas that clean ar was squred > in there when the HDA was made, forcing any resitual dust onto the > brether filter. Any other ideas? If there was not a breather, and if you pressurized slightly, then any leakage would be outwards, keeping dust from entering From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 18:34:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121015163012.A3769@shell.lmi.net> > > The analog input adapter (joystick interface) was offered at the time of > > release, but no joysticks (until YEARS later) - but the docs had a drawing > > that was clearly and obviously the joystick of the RS Coco. On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Which wouldn't ahve wored without intenral wiring changes (not just a > conencotr adapter). The CoCo jopsticks used 3-terminal pots as a > potential divider acorss the 5V supply, the slider goes ot ta voltage ADC > input on the CoCo. The IBM (and Apple ][) joysticks are variable > resistors (2 terminal) used as part of the timing network on a 555 > monostable (actually a 558, which is a quad 555, wired in monostable mode > only). > You would ahve to separate the 'bottom end' of the 2 pots in the joystick > for it to work proeperly. Doing so took less time than changing the connector on them to a DA15. > Of coruse it's entirely possible that IBM were planning on selling > joysticks made by the same company that made the CoCo ones, but wired fro > the 5150 adapter. a reasonable guess From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 18:34:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:34:34 -0400 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015162312.M3769@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121015162312.M3769@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507C9D8A.6060900@neurotica.com> On 10/15/2012 07:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have no idea what it's for. The HDA cannot be presurised in normal use, >> there is a breather filter. One suggestio nwas that clean ar was squred >> in there when the HDA was made, forcing any resitual dust onto the >> brether filter. Any other ideas? > > If there was not a breather, and if you pressurized slightly, then > any leakage would be outwards, keeping dust from entering But squirting the bits out! -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 15 18:37:51 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:37:51 +0100 Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: References: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Oct 14, 12 11:19:06 pm Message-ID: <019b01cdab2e$193e96f0$4bbbc4d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 15 October 2012 22:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Desoldering Pump > > > > > I find myself in need of a new desoldering pump. I found a number on > > the Farnell site, anyone have any recommendations for a good one that > > does not cost more than =A325ish (about $40) and for which I can get > spare nozzles? > > The 'standard' one that Farbnell sell (I think it has a green anodised body, or > at least mine does) is what I use. It seems to work well. And IIRC it meets > your cost requirement. > > You can get spare nozzles (and pump washers), but be careful. I bought my > pump about 15 eyars ago. When I got some new nozles for it lsat year, I > found they'd changed the thread, and theat the new nozzles did not fit my > old pump. No biggie, after all it's jsut the PTFE bit that wears out, so I > pressed the remains of that from the end cap of an old and a new nozzle > and fitted the new PTFEW to the original cap. Of course that fitted. > > Incidentally, with all desolderign pumps, it's worth taking them apart from > time to time (and when new) and putting a smear of petroleum jelly > ('vaseline') on the pump washer, O-rings, etc. It improves the seal no end. > > -tony Thanks for the tips Tony. I have re-greased my current pump before to excellent effect, but this time it made no difference, so it is time to get a better one that will last me. However I am tempted by one of these combination iron and pump things that would seem to be much more effective (in principle, not tried in practice). Regards Rob From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 15 18:42:34 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:42:34 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most of the discussion on this that other people have brought up, is why I liked Brad Parkers "udisk" approach so much. His design goals were: Create a low cost unibus adapter card which can emulate a small number of popular controllers (RL11, UDA50, etc) and use an IDE or CF disk as the actual media. Make it easy for others to write personality modules for different controllers. Should allow use of a IDE/CF disk to boot a PDP-11 (or vax). Specifically, I was enamored of the approach that allowed a user to write their own personality module to change it from acting like a SCSI controller vs. SDI vs. etc.... all via software. This would seem to me to be the most functional approach for the most people. I'll pony up a bounty of $300 to get someone to take those design goals through to a kit form. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Or take up the gauntlet? :) J From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 15 19:11:11 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 01:11:11 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507CA61F.3050605@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/10/2012 18:23, Liam Proven wrote: > Network interfaces: Econet for the BBC Mico? Localtalk on the original > Apple Macintosh? > > Or even the once-famed "$25 Network" for the PC Or the MuPET interface for Commodore PETs around 1980-81. Very short range, using ribbon cables, but good for fileshareing, printer sharing, and with a bit of programming also machine-to-machine ops. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 19:17:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:17:43 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> On Oct 15, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Jay West wrote: > Most of the discussion on this that other people have brought up, is why I liked Brad Parkers "udisk" approach so much. His design goals were: > > Create a low cost unibus adapter card which can emulate a small number > of popular controllers (RL11, UDA50, etc) and use an IDE or CF disk as > the actual media. > > Make it easy for others to write personality modules for different > controllers. > > Should allow use of a IDE/CF disk to boot a PDP-11 (or vax). > Specifically, I was enamored of the approach that allowed a user to write their own personality module to change it from acting like a SCSI controller vs. SDI vs. etc.... all via software. This would seem to me to be the most functional approach for the most people. > > I'll pony up a bounty of $300 to get someone to take those design goals through to a kit form. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Or take up the gauntlet? :) I'd love to, but $300 is probably about enough to build a single board in quantity 5 or so. If I do it, it's not going to be for money. :-) However, something like a Kickstarter would at least be able to guarantee the availability of funds to manufacture the damned thing, which is what's hung me up in the past (now it's more the availability of time, since I have a 13-month-old timesink who refuses to learn how to solder). Those are very much in line with my general design goals, though, as well as a wide variety of media to interface. I'd be very interested in working with someone to accomplish what I can't myself in a reasonable amount of time. - Dave From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 19:17:56 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 01:17:56 +0100 Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 23:11, Rick Bensene wrote: >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: >> > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility >> >features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M > transistors. > > And Fred replied: >> Is it supported by current software? > > Kind of. It'd probably run Windows 98(it would definitely run Window > 95) OK, but nothing newer from Microsoft as far as I can tell. Memory > limitations within the confines of a P166MMX laptop of the day wouldn't > allow anything newer to run. Oh, you can. I not only got NT4 running on my Thinkpad 701C - the famed IBM "Butterfly" - but even Windows 2000. That's on a 486 with 40MB of RAM. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 19:21:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 01:21:39 +0100 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <507CA61F.3050605@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <5079DEAC.6030702@neurotica.com> <20121013161842.I31315@shell.lmi.net> <507ACB1D.7090602@gmail.com> <507CA61F.3050605@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 16 October 2012 01:11, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 15/10/2012 18:23, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Network interfaces: Econet for the BBC Mico? Localtalk on the original >> Apple Macintosh? >> >> Or even the once-famed "$25 Network" for the PC > > Or the MuPET interface for Commodore PETs around 1980-81. Very short > range, using ribbon cables, but good for fileshareing, printer sharing, > and with a bit of programming also machine-to-machine ops. Oooh yes. I might even have *used* that, in my Computer Studies 'O'-level class, around 1983-1984. I also really should have remembered Sinclair's ZX Network via the Interface 1 - good catch, Jules! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 15 19:45:32 2012 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 19:45:32 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Dave wrote.... > I'd love to, but $300 is probably about enough to build a single board > in quantity 5 or so. If I do it, it's not going to be for money. :-) My $300 offer was a bounty to get someone to do it, not for my purchase of the final product. If others join in with bounty-uppers, then maybe the initial funders get a small discount. All depends on how the costs work out, but I'm not counting on any "discounts". Just want to see it made available. If you check the udisk page at heeltoe.com, you'll find he's got a schematic and layout and somewhat detailed specs, supposedly already working for an RL11. My guess is his project only needs some final debugging/packaging as well as additional code for RK11, UDA50, etc. The code download link doesn't work, maybe Brad could be convinced to release it if he's not going to finish the project. J From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 19:56:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 17:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121015173606.H3769@shell.lmi.net> > >> > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility > >> >features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M > > transistors. > >> Is it supported by current software? On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > > Kind of. It'd probably run Windows 98(it would definitely run Window > > 95) OK, but nothing newer from Microsoft as far as I can tell. Memory > > limitations within the confines of a P166MMX laptop of the day wouldn't > > allow anything newer to run. > Oh, you can. > I not only got NT4 running on my Thinkpad 701C - the famed IBM > "Butterfly" - but even Windows 2000. That's on a 486 with 40MB of RAM. > :?) Anything that installs from a directory named "I386" oughta work. But there has been some discussion lately about some software not supporting any chips that are so old and obsolete that they have actually made it to market. :-) Will 20G be enough to run current software, or will we need 15 000 MORE floppy drives? How long would the discrete laptop take to boot Windoze? Will the lights dim in Vegas when it does? From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 19:57:26 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:57:26 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 20:17, David Riley wrote: > > On Oct 15, 2012, at 7:42 PM, Jay West wrote: > >> Most of the discussion on this that other people have brought up, is why I liked Brad Parkers "udisk" approach so much. His design goals were: >> >> Create a low cost unibus adapter card which can emulate a small number >> of popular controllers (RL11, UDA50, etc) and use an IDE or CF disk as >> the actual media. >> >> Make it easy for others to write personality modules for different >> controllers. >> >> Should allow use of a IDE/CF disk to boot a PDP-11 (or vax). >> Specifically, I was enamored of the approach that allowed a user to write their own personality module to change it from acting like a SCSI controller vs. SDI vs. etc.... all via software. This would seem to me to be the most functional approach for the most people. >> >> I'll pony up a bounty of $300 to get someone to take those design goals through to a kit form. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Or take up the gauntlet? :) > > I'd love to, but $300 is probably about enough to build a single board > in quantity 5 or so. If I do it, it's not going to be for money. :-) > > However, something like a Kickstarter would at least be able to > guarantee the availability of funds to manufacture the damned thing, > which is what's hung me up in the past (now it's more the availability > of time, since I have a 13-month-old timesink who refuses to learn how > to solder). > > Those are very much in line with my general design goals, though, as > well as a wide variety of media to interface. I'd be very interested > in working with someone to accomplish what I can't myself in a > reasonable amount of time. > > > - Dave > > If I can get some more money, I'd be willing to contribute -- for a QBUS version though; preferably with the ability to be an RH11+disk controller (workalike) with an RM05 or two. What I'd really like to see is something that could replace a TM11 or RH11+9-track tape drive controller and drives with modern CF or SD cards instead. Would make it easier for those of us who don't have 9-track to install software off of 9-track. -- C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:00:59 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:00:59 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_=2D_Create_a?= =?windows-1252?Q?_public_venue_=2F_visitor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 6:50 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Please have a look and consider signing. > Good idea. Signed. Interesting bit about partnering with Disney. Disney occasionally offers help in designing museums and theme parks. Whatever your opinion on the company, they know how to run an attraction. They helped with a really nice renovation of Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI a few years ago - Henry Ford's outdoor museum of trains, boats and buildings. In fact, Disneyland was somewhat inspired by Greenfield Village. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:11:06 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 02:11:06 +0100 Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: <20121015173606.H3769@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121015173606.H3769@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 16 October 2012 01:56, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> > A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility >> >> >features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M >> > transistors. >> >> Is it supported by current software? > On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> > Kind of. It'd probably run Windows 98(it would definitely run Window >> > 95) OK, but nothing newer from Microsoft as far as I can tell. Memory >> > limitations within the confines of a P166MMX laptop of the day wouldn't >> > allow anything newer to run. >> Oh, you can. >> I not only got NT4 running on my Thinkpad 701C - the famed IBM >> "Butterfly" - but even Windows 2000. That's on a 486 with 40MB of RAM. >> :?) > > Anything that installs from a directory named "I386" oughta work. I fear that's historical now. IIRC, XP won't run on a 486 and Vista requires something like a PIII or newer. Win2K was the last one where "386" *meant* an actual 80386. I recall a friend of mine experimentally installing I think Win2K on an early-1990s RIP PC. RIP PCs were boxes - used in particularly rich design studios and the like - that sat between a Mac and a high-end printer, capture the Postscript and then on their own rasterized the very large Postscript files for printout on poster-sized inkjets or the like, so that you could continue to use your Mac for other things. This was a 386 stuffed with boards with RAM on them - something like 256MB or 512MB of RAM. In an ISA-bus 80386. It cost tens of thousands of pounds when new. It would actually run Win2K, just /glacially/ slowly. I always wished that Ryan Rempel, the heroic coder who back-ported early versions of Mac OS X to pre-OS unsupported Macs, had managed to get 10.2 or 10.3 running on the PowerPC 604 properly. There was one Mac clone from Daystar Digital designed specifically for running complex Photoshop filters on large images. It had 4 PPC604 chips on it. MacOS 9 ran on one; the others were only supported in certain specific MP-aware Photoshop filters. You could just about run OS X 10.2 on a very-well-specced 604; I did so. But I'd love to have seen an actual SMP-capable OS running on one of those multiprocessor Mac clones. In theory, it would have performed really quite well - they were seriously powerful boxes for the mid to late 1990s. > But there has been some discussion lately about some software not > supporting any chips that are so old and obsolete that they have > actually made it to market. :-) Heh! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 20:17:57 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:17:57 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507C5675.9020605@ubanproductions.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <507B0D9B.80203@neurotica.com> <507B18CF.6050708@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B3021.7030206@neurotica.com> <507B3390.7070601@brouhaha.com> <507B3633.4050209@neurotica.com> <507B6992.7020409@brouhaha.com> <507C5675.9020605@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <507CB5C5.1040307@verizon.net> On 10/15/2012 02:31 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > On 10/14/12 8:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I wrote: >>> meeting the maximum leakage current spec is quite difficult. >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Why? (if you want to go into it) >> The requirements are basically: >> >> Vol 0.7V max into 70 mA load >> Vil max 1.3V >> Vih min 1.7V >> minimum 5 ns rise and fall times (10% to 90%) >> 80uA max leakage at 3.8V, 10uA max at 0V (with Vcc from 0.0V to 5.25V) >> 10pF max capacitance >> >> My attempts to design anything that meets this failed on either the leakage current, capacitive >> loading, or both. However, someone who is more skilled with analog design could probably come up >> with something satisfactory. >> >> Even the National DS8641 and DS3662 didn't quite meet the requirements. It is unclear whether the >> ones DEC used had been screened to better specs (either by National or DEC). >> >> >> > With a discrete design, the propagation delay is likely to go up. Is there > a maximum prop delay criteria? > > > I understand the specs but, there are boards out there using standard TTL in the form of LS244, LS241, LS245 and I've interfaced to Q-bus using those. Whats the issue? Hint if your building a multibackplane system then it _may_ be an issue. The H11 boards (IO, memory and storage) use mostly regular parts. Same for a lot of other non-DEC vendors. The key thing here is we are worrying only one board and even is the leakage is a little high the system will run as all the other boards are hopefully conforming. The biggest issue is getting all of it on a quad or even a dual board. With current modern Flash and SD and CF devices the actual storage medium is a non issue. Has any one considered this scsi to Flash/SD/CF memory emulating a disk. This may be of interest for those with SCSI and those getting scarce. Me I planed ahead and kept all the small drives that people didn't want but still ran from older MFM and IDE to SCSI. That and old boards even if flagged dead.. they can be fixed or used for parts. Allison > From bear at typewritten.org Mon Oct 15 20:23:30 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:23:30 -0700 Subject: HP Apollo 715t In-Reply-To: <507C3A71.9070805@gmail.com> References: <20121014095518.9036d8aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen Kunz at "Oct 14, 12 09:55:18 am" <201210141811.q9EIBFuP16842822@floodgap.com> <001901cdaa4a$c2ad1fc0$48075f40$@xs4all.nl> <41A1F38B-C270-4403-9974-3CEEFF74EC55@typewritten.org> <507C3A71.9070805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58C3DE16-594B-44D1-B361-4734229244BE@typewritten.org> On Oct 15, 2012, at 9:31 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Really? I'm amazed that made any kind of financial sense; 'real' Apollos weren't exactly widespread, and the cost of design / tooling / training / marketing surely negated what few sales they likely made. Why not just offer a discount on a regular 700-series system? Nevertheless. I thought I had an upgrade kit installation instructions manual but it's not in my inventory so either I imagined it or I haven't found it since starting keeping inventory. At the very least the upgrades are explicitly mentioned in the HP-UX Workstation HCL (14th ed.), as there are a few hardware options which are only supported in the upgraded workstation, and not in the "real" one. Mechanically it's (they're) more divergent from the actual 715 than I remembered; the cutout for the Domain keyboard seems to be retained (on the 715t only), but I think there's nothing behind it. It also has a DIO-II format SGC slot (and may have an ISA slot instead of an EISA one? weird.) ---[quote] Model 715t (Upgraded Model 425t or 433t) The Model 715t is a single-processor deskside workstation upgraded from an MC68040-based Model 425t or 433t. The upgrade kit is discontinued. The Model 715t is not similar to any standard (as-built) Model 715. The closest standard Series 700 SPU would be the Model 730. There was also a 715s, which was an upgrade in the physically larger 400-series chassis. ---[quote] Model 715s (Upgraded Model 425s or 433s) The Model 715s is a single-processor deskside workstation upgraded from an MC68040-based Model 425s or 433s. The upgrade kit is discontinued. The 715s is more similar to a Model 750 than to a standard (as-built) Model 715. aaaaand the 710e. ---[quote] Model 705 and 710 The Model 705 and 710 are discontinued single-processor desktop workstations. They provide no I/O slots. Some Model 710 SPUs may have been upgraded from the MC68040-based Model 425e. This document refers to these upgraded systems as Model 710e, and it is physically inden- tical to a standard Model 710, except for using 425e RAM and storage devices. ok bear. -- until further notice From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 20:46:20 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:46:20 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> Message-ID: <844FC6DC-F52F-406B-8B7B-D1E4754469D4@gmail.com> On Oct 15, 2012, at 8:57 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > If I can get some more money, I'd be willing to contribute -- for a > QBUS version though; preferably with the ability to be an RH11+disk > controller (workalike) with an RM05 or two. I only have a QBUS machine, so I'd be developing for that. However, Unibus has very similar drivers, and I imagine the circuitry for the board would be 90% identical. My general plan was for an FPGA or CPLD for the bus management with a microcontroller for the meat of the controller (the "personality"), which has the benefits of making the software separable from the underlying bus and also making modules writeable by anyone with access to a GCC stack, not just people with FPGA software licenses. > What I'd really like to see is something that could replace a TM11 or > RH11+9-track tape drive controller and drives with modern CF or SD > cards instead. Would make it easier for those of us who don't have > 9-track to install software off of 9-track. That's the sort of thing any of these types of systems would excel at. My end goal is to build a card that can be ANY QBUS card (CPU, memory, peripheral, etc), but baby steps. Among other things, that requires a lot more pin real estate on the controller for both directions of most of the signals. A disk/tape/other peripheral emulator (like udisk) is a somewhat easier first target. - Dave From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Oct 15 21:09:10 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:09:10 -0400 Subject: Amassing components for: unibus^W QBus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <844FC6DC-F52F-406B-8B7B-D1E4754469D4@gmail.com> References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> <844FC6DC-F52F-406B-8B7B-D1E4754469D4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507CC1C6.7060203@telegraphics.com.au> On 15/10/12 9:46 PM, David Riley wrote: > > ... My end goal is to build a card that can be ANY QBUS card (CPU, > memory, peripheral, etc), but baby steps. Among other things, that > requires a lot more pin real estate on the controller for both > directions of most of the signals. A disk/tape/other peripheral > emulator (like udisk) is a somewhat easier first target. So... Did any of the people who want one of these, buy Holm Tiffe's prototyping blank???????????? "This is the last call for Orders. The Price for the PCBs is down to 21 Euros/PCB." (9 Feb 2012) (I did. Hope it was a useful investment :) --Toby > > > - Dave > > From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 22:31:33 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 03:31:33 +0000 Subject: =?Windows-1252?B?UmU6IEEgcGV0aXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaGlwIFRlYW0gLSBDcmVhdGUgYSBwdWJsaWMgdmVudWUgLyB2aXNpdG9yknMgY2VudGVy?= In-Reply-To: References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I sped read and didn't see the partnering verbiage (I saw comparisons to Walt's legacy) but I suppose being a founder of Pixar perhaps disney could have some interest as well. -----Original Message----- From: Jason McBrien Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:00:59 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: A petition to Apple's Leadership Team - Create a public venue / visitor?s center On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 6:50 PM, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Please have a look and consider signing. > Good idea. Signed. Interesting bit about partnering with Disney. Disney occasionally offers help in designing museums and theme parks. Whatever your opinion on the company, they know how to run an attraction. They helped with a really nice renovation of Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI a few years ago - Henry Ford's outdoor museum of trains, boats and buildings. In fact, Disneyland was somewhat inspired by Greenfield Village. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 22:38:31 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:38:31 -0400 Subject: Amassing components for: unibus^W QBus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507CC1C6.7060203@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> <844FC6DC-F52F-406B-8B7B-D1E4754469D4@gmail.com> <507CC1C6.7060203@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 22:09, Toby Thain wrote: > On 15/10/12 9:46 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> >> ... My end goal is to build a card that can be ANY QBUS card (CPU, >> memory, peripheral, etc), but baby steps. Among other things, that >> requires a lot more pin real estate on the controller for both >> directions of most of the signals. A disk/tape/other peripheral >> emulator (like udisk) is a somewhat easier first target. > > > So... Did any of the people who want one of these, buy Holm Tiffe's > prototyping blank???????????? > > "This is the last call for Orders. The Price for the PCBs is down to 21 > Euros/PCB." (9 Feb 2012) > > (I did. Hope it was a useful investment :) > > --Toby > >> >> Not me, since I can't do anything electronics related except use said electronics. Not that I don't want to learn, but I just haven't had the time nor inclination, yet. -- Christian >> >> > From saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Oct 15 22:49:16 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF7968593609B1-1A04-71A9@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> >> When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? >> When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a >> dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When >> it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? > > It probably varies according to location. In the UK, ownership of trash > passes to the local council when you put the trash in a designated bin, > box or bag on the street for collection. My understanding is that, in most jurisdictions in the USA, trash is "abandoned property" when you bring it to the curb, even in a designated trash container owned by your trash hauler. This is the result of court decisions allowing police authorities to search the trash without bothering to obtain a warrant. That seems to be the general take in the US. There have been instances of dumpster divers prosecuted, but it's for trespass. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 15 22:54:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:54:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?Windows-1252?B?UmU6IEEgcGV0aXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaGlwIFRlYW0gLSBDcmVhdGUgYSBwdWJsaWMgdmVudWUgLyB2aXNpdG9yknMgY2VudGVy?= In-Reply-To: <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> Some of you got that subject line in a clear text form. It was NOT ASCII. What I got was: =?Windows-1252?B?UmU&IEEEgcGVCaXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaG1wIFR and so forth! From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 23:17:39 2012 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:17:39 +1100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <8CF7968593609B1-1A04-71A9@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF7968593609B1-1A04-71A9@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <507cdfe7.c4e2440a.4e7d.ffffa0b8@mx.google.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Scott Quinn Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2012 2:49 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 38 > My understanding is that, in most jurisdictions in the USA, trash is "abandoned property" when you bring it to the curb, even in a designated trash container owned by your trash hauler. > This is the result of court decisions allowing police authorities to search the trash without bothering to obtain a warrant. > That seems to be the general take in the US. There have been instances of dumpster divers prosecuted, but it's for trespass. In NSW (Australia) garbage and recycling stuff becomes the property of the local council - interfering with it or removing it is then regarded as theft. The same applies in Victoria but not sure about other states. It was done that way to stop the scrap metal merchants from grabbing the stuff left out before the council could get to it. Lance From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 15 23:39:29 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 22:39:29 -0600 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leaders?= =?windows-1252?Q?hip_Team_-_Create_a_public_venue_/_visi?= =?windows-1252?Q?tor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Some of you got that subject line in a clear text form. > > It was NOT ASCII. > What I got was: > =?Windows-1252?B?UmU&IEEEgcGVCaXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaG1wIFR > and so forth! If you're using Microsoft Internet(tm), I don't see what the problem is. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 00:21:36 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 00:21:36 -0500 Subject: Amassing components for: unibus^W QBus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <2F2B5387-8E0E-450B-BE2F-EC93BA38C875@gmail.com> <844FC6DC-F52F-406B-8B7B-D1E4754469D4@gmail.com> <507CC1C6.7060203@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: what card? On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 15 October 2012 22:09, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 15/10/12 9:46 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> > >> > >> ... My end goal is to build a card that can be ANY QBUS card (CPU, > >> memory, peripheral, etc), but baby steps. Among other things, that > >> requires a lot more pin real estate on the controller for both > >> directions of most of the signals. A disk/tape/other peripheral > >> emulator (like udisk) is a somewhat easier first target. > > > > > > So... Did any of the people who want one of these, buy Holm Tiffe's > > prototyping blank???????????? > > > > "This is the last call for Orders. The Price for the PCBs is down to 21 > > Euros/PCB." (9 Feb 2012) > > > > (I did. Hope it was a useful investment :) > > > > --Toby > > > >> > >> > > Not me, since I can't do anything electronics related except use said > electronics. > > Not that I don't want to learn, but I just haven't had the time nor > inclination, yet. > > -- Christian > >> > >> > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 16 01:02:16 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 07:02:16 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don?t have either a LA100 (-BA?) or a DEREP (Ethernet long line driver?). Who has them and where are they? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Many Jars Sent: 15 October 2012 15:00 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? I'd love one, but I don't know how I'd get down there to get it without my wife noticing. On 15 October 2012 14:44, Adrian Graham wrote: > 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap pile along > with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with complete keyboards! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From christopher1400 at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 23:44:56 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:44:56 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_=2D_Create_a?= =?windows-1252?Q?_public_venue_=2F_visitor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Using chrome and I don't see a problem, on neither Linux nor Windows. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Oct 16 02:00:14 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:00:14 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: A bigger problem is my car has 167000 miles on it and i camt afford the fuel On Oct 15, 2012 6:24 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > > John, John, John... > > On 10/15/2012 10:00 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > I'd love one, but I don't know how I'd get down there to get it > > without my wife noticing. > > > > > > On 15 October 2012 14:44, Adrian Graham > wrote: > >> 2 actually, currently in Cambs UK and heading for the scrap pile along > >> with the DEREP. It's rare to see them with complete keyboards! > >> > >> -- > >> adrian/witchy > >> Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > >> www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Oct 16 02:03:59 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:03:59 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 38 In-Reply-To: <8CF7968593609B1-1A04-71A9@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF7968593609B1-1A04-71A9@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I've been shouted at by the folks at the tip(dump) for trying to rescue things, Apparently its theft On Oct 16, 2012 4:54 AM, "Scott Quinn" wrote: > > > > > >> When you throw something out, when does ownership of it pass from you? > >> When you drop it in the trashcan? When you empty the trash into a > >> dustbin? When the collectors pick up the dustbin's contents? When > >> it's dumped into landfill (or whatever)? Never? > > > > It probably varies according to location. In the UK, ownership of trash > > passes to the local council when you put the trash in a designated bin, > > box or bag on the street for collection. > > My understanding is that, in most jurisdictions in the USA, trash is > "abandoned property" when you bring it to the curb, even in a > designated trash container owned by your trash hauler. This is > the result of court decisions allowing police authorities to search > the trash without bothering to obtain a warrant. > > > > That seems to be the general take in the US. There have been instances of > dumpster divers prosecuted, but it's for trespass. > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Tue Oct 16 02:37:45 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:37:45 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_=2D_Create_a?= =?windows-1252?Q?_public_venue_=2F_visitor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On 15 October 2012 23:50, David Greelish wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Please have a look and consider signing. > > http://www.change.org/petitions/apple-inc-create-a-public-venue-visitor-s-center > > Best, > > David Greelish > - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster > - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Done. I should start one asking them to release the code to Lisa OS. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 02:45:05 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:45:05 +0100 Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507D1081.1080108@gmail.com> On 16/10/2012 01:17, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 October 2012 23:11, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Rick Bensene wrote: >>>> A Pentium 166 MMX chip, which was a common chip with mobility >>>> features used in some early Pentium-based laptops uses roughly 4.5M >> transistors. >> >> And Fred replied: >>> Is it supported by current software? >> Kind of. It'd probably run Windows 98(it would definitely run Window >> 95) OK, but nothing newer from Microsoft as far as I can tell. Memory >> limitations within the confines of a P166MMX laptop of the day wouldn't >> allow anything newer to run. > Oh, you can. > > I not only got NT4 running on my Thinkpad 701C - the famed IBM > "Butterfly" - but even Windows 2000. That's on a 486 with 40MB of RAM. > :?) > I have run NT4 and Windows/2000 on a DigitalHiNote VP 575 which I think is a P166MMX but as the maximum RAM is 80Mb it crawls. I can' believe that I used one for almost 4 years for everyday computing. Even the Compaq M700 that replaced it crawls by current standards... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue Oct 16 03:17:26 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 09:17:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Paging Andreas Holz Message-ID: <1350375446.1876.YahooMailNeo@web133101.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Andreas, I don't have your mail address. Plesase contact me offline. Somebody gave me a binder of documentation for the "Modularer Experimentier-Computer" MEC-8, I'd like to forward to you,as it shall belong to the system, you collected from CMA-remainings in Dortmund. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From david at classiccomputing.com Tue Oct 16 08:04:23 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 09:04:23 -0400 Subject: Apple petition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, and Disney's CEO Bob Iger now sits on the Apple board, after Steve Jobs died. Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish On Oct 16, 2012, at 4:17 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Good idea. Signed. > > Interesting bit about partnering with Disney. Disney occasionally offers > help in designing museums and theme parks. Whatever your opinion on the > company, they know how to run an attraction. They helped with a really nice > renovation of Greenfield Village in Dearborn, MI a few years ago - Henry > Ford's outdoor museum of trains, boats and buildings. In fact, Disneyland > was somewhat inspired by Greenfield Village. From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Oct 16 13:21:28 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:21:28 +0200 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <507DA5A8.8090104@e-bbes.com> On 2012-10-14 19:42, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > >>> >> [...non-ancient disk on Unibus machines...] >> > I'm surely not the only collector who would be willing to pony up >> > some $$$ for such a project.... > > I would certainly pony up some $. Is there really enough interest in such a thing to make boards? This subject pops up now & then, gets discussed, and disappears again. I did myself some qbus-ide boards, but never finished the software. It is simply to easy to buy qbus-scsi or unibus-scsi boards on ebay. You just have to wait for it. And if somebody/anybody picks it up again, it won't be cheaper then the $200 on ebay, so why? Actually, the only reason I could think is, that we have less and less working 50 pin scsi drives, so "if" I would do it again, it would be sd-flash. But what to do with the floppies & tapes ? Cheers From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 16 13:41:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507DA5A8.8090104@e-bbes.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507DA5A8.8090104@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <201210161841.OAA25301@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Is there really enough interest in such a thing to make boards? > It is simply to easy to buy qbus-scsi or unibus-scsi boards on ebay. > You just have to wait for it. You also have to be willing to use ebay. Which not everyone is. > And if somebody/anybody picks it up again, it won't be cheaper then > the $200 on ebay, so why? (a) I'd be willing to buy from a list regular long before I'd be willing to find someone to proxy for me on ebay. (Using ebay directly is just not happening for me. Their terms of service are ludicrous, or at least were last I looked, and the only interface they provide is a Web one; either of those would keep me away.) (b) I'd be significantly more confident the result would actually work. (c) I'd be supporting someone in the hobby rather than (likely) a random dealer/scrapper. Of course, these are all really just facets of a single thing I haven't come up with a good word for. > Actually, the only reason I could think is, that we have less and > less working 50 pin scsi drives, so "if" I would do it again, it > would be sd-flash. I'd rather real disks; if you really don't want to do SCSI (which would be my own preference - I've got lots of SCA and HD68 and even some 50pin, and plenty of passive adapters), I'd suggest SATA. But I recognize that that's armchair quarterbacking. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lists at loomcom.com Tue Oct 16 14:48:38 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:48:38 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> * On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 07:47:45PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough > electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? It could be, yes, at the expense of a lot of board space. One of the biggest issues with the DEC busses nowadays is that they use open collector drivers. What that means is that the signal lines in the bus are normally held at something like 3.4V (a logical "on") by resistors at both ends of the bus that terminate the bus and form a voltage divider. The chips are all TTL, so if you were to just directly connect a TTL-level driver to the bus and assert a "high" logic level, it would try to pull the bus to +5V and you would be in a world of trouble. The open collector drivers don't ever do that, they can either pull the line down to ground, or they can act like an open circuit, but that's it. That's how signaling on the DEC bus works - a bunch of open collector drivers share the same line, and any of them can pull the line down to ground, safely. The old chips that were designed for this purpose also had other electrical requirements, especially the amount of current they could sink when pulling the bus to ground. There are some open collector drivers still made, but not as many as you would think. And certainly nothing I know of that is in a single convenient package like the DEC or National or Signetics chips were. There are some off-the-shelf things that are close but not close enough. Maybe the best bet would be to use a CPLD with open collector outputs and +5V tolerant inputs on the other side? Though you'd have to be careful about current sinking requirements. Anyway, it's not as easy as I wish it were :) Believe me, I'd love a QBus card with a CompactFlash or SDCard that knew how to speak MSCP. But if anyone wants to actually build it, it'll be a lot of work. > My own "plan" is to emulate the raw hard disks instead of the controllers > (certainly for DEC RD53/54 which are the ones I most want to emulate). One > day, when I get time, and when I find someone who can help me with the > hardware design. Also hard! Differential signaling on the disk data lines, MFM encoding/decoding, wicked tight timing requirements. But it has been done commercially, so it's certainly not impossible! -Seth From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 15:02:38 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:02:38 -0300 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: > open collector drivers. What that means is that the signal lines in the > bus are normally held at something like 3.4V (a logical "on") by > resistors at both ends of the bus that terminate the bus and form a > voltage divider. The chips are all TTL, so if you were to just directly > connect a TTL-level driver to the bus and assert a "high" logic level, > it would try to pull the bus to +5V and you would be in a world of > trouble. The open collector drivers don't ever do that, they can either LVD devices that works with 3.3V as "high"? There is an entire line of 74's made in LVD/LVX flavor :o) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 13:48:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:48:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015162312.M3769@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 15, 12 04:24:41 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have no idea what it's for. The HDA cannot be presurised in normal use, > > there is a breather filter. One suggestio nwas that clean ar was squred > > in there when the HDA was made, forcing any resitual dust onto the > > brether filter. Any other ideas? > > If there was not a breather, and if you pressurized slightly, then > any leakage would be outwards, keeping dust from entering However, the Micropolis 1200 certainly has a breather filter. The air holes for it are clearly visible on the top of the HDA. The schrader vavle is on the underside, alongside the motor PCB, brake solenoid, etc. I haev yet to find a convincing reason for it being fitted at all. Any suggestions? I have no idea if the HDA-side of the valve has anything fitted to it (like a filter). I don't have a scrap 1200 to pull to bits to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 14:15:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:15:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Joysticks, PC and other In-Reply-To: <20121015163012.A3769@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 15, 12 04:34:09 pm Message-ID: > > > > The analog input adapter (joystick interface) was offered at the time of > > > release, but no joysticks (until YEARS later) - but the docs had a drawing > > > that was clearly and obviously the joystick of the RS Coco. > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Which wouldn't ahve wored without intenral wiring changes (not just a > > conencotr adapter). The CoCo jopsticks used 3-terminal pots as a > > potential divider acorss the 5V supply, the slider goes ot ta voltage ADC > > input on the CoCo. The IBM (and Apple ][) joysticks are variable > > resistors (2 terminal) used as part of the timing network on a 555 > > monostable (actually a 558, which is a quad 555, wired in monostable mode > > only). > > You would ahve to separate the 'bottom end' of the 2 pots in the joystick > > for it to work proeperly. > > Doing so took less time than changing the connector on them to a DA15. Yo uahd to unscrew the bottom covver, take it off, snip out a bit of wire [1] and then refit the cover and screww. To change the connector you had to cut off the DIN plug ans solder 5 wires ot a DA15. Seems like it woudl take about the same time. However, is thaerw a gotcha here? The buttons in both the PC and CoCo joysticks return to the ground rail, which is what you're disconnecting from the pots. If the cor of the cable goes ot the button, and then wires from that tag to the 2 pots, all you haev to do is snip out the latter wires. But if the core i nthe cable goes to one of the bot terminals (with wires ot the other pot and the button switch), you would have to reoslder the cable core ot the tag o nthe swtich. That would take a little longer. In any case, my point is that you can't simply make up a cable adapter with a 5 pin typ B or 6 pin DIN socket wired to a DA15 plug for this. You have to make intenral modificatiosn to he joystick. [1] The slang term 'Dikes' for diagonal cutters (side cutters) is well-known, but I have always treated it as a slang, colloquial, term. I was therefor suprised to find in the HP9125B service manual the following as part of the 'X axis restringing procedure' "e. Crimp cable clamp securely. This operation can be perfomed with a pair od dikes" Anyway... Some years back I was fooling around wit hthe Vectrex (is that on-topic here? It's not a user-prgrammable computer, but it's over 10 years old, has a 68A09 in it, and is a fun machine). The controllers for that machien conenct usign DE9 connectors, and have a 2-axis joystik and 4 buttons. The joystick inputs are voltge ADCs, liek a CoCo. Anyway, the original controlelrs are hard to find, so I decided to see what else could be used. At the time I picked up some Tandy 'Deluxe Joysticks' for the CoCo. I found 2 ways to use these. The problem was that at least one of the axes was reversed wrt the CoCo -- that is in one case moving the joystick in a particualr direction produced an increasing voltage on the input while the Vectrex required a decreasing voltage. The simpler way for soembody like me was a little circuit using a few op-amps that simply inverted the votlage (and buffered the signal on the otehr axis IIRC). But for those who didn't like soldering, I foudn a way to modify the joystick itself. The problem is that the potentiometers are not conventional compoennts. They're resistive traces on a plastic substrate with cotncts wiping over them. Both pots, and the trim cotnrols, are on the same substrate, there iws no way to reverse the end conenctions to one of them. I think I ended up rotating the plate through 90 degrees -- soemthign that involved a bit of cutting and filing of the plastic housing,m since it was designed to be impossible to assemble wrongly, and then mopving push-on terminals around. It worked, but soldering up the Op-amp circuit was a lot quicker I also made an interface to use a noraml (of the time) PC joystick wit hte Vectrex. This used the pots in the joystick against constant current sinks (Op-amp + trannsisotr) + more op-amps to convert the resulting voltage changes to the Vectrex input specification. Hang on... I've found the docs I produced on this.... Converting a Tandy Joystick to use with the Vectrex =================================================== These instructions relate to the Tandy 26-3123 Deluxe Joystick only. The main problem in converting the joystick for use with the vectrex is that the sense of the vertical axis needs to be reversed. Since the potentiometers in this unit are formed by resistive traces on a plastic plate (the 'Pot Plate'), it's not a simple matter to reverse the connections to one of the pots. Here's how to do it. 1) Remove the 4 screws from the underside of the joystick, and take off the lower cover. Set these parts aside 2) Carefully lift up the 'Pot Plate', and note where the wires are connected. Disconnect the wires. Note that 2 of the connections are linked by a (red) wire. 3) Disconnect the wires on the PCB. Note where the 3 wires (white, red, black) which go to the switches in the joystick handle are connected. Set the joystick cable aside. You'll need to recover the push-on tags from this cable later. 4) Remove the 2 screws, the PCB, and the fire button + springs. Set these parts asside for the moment. 5) Note how the joystick mechanism is assembled. The aim is to rotate the 'Pot Plate' and the sliding contacts counter-clockwise by 90 degrees. To do this, first unclip the 2 return springs from the mechanism 6) Lift out the pivot from the centre of the sliders, and then remove the sliders. Note how they are fitted 7) Remove the plastic base from the joystick mechanism. You need to rotate this through 90 degrees also, so that the sliders will fit correctly. In order to do this, enlarge the hole that will be in the lower right corner using a 7.5mm drill from the side that faces the joystick handle, until the plast base will fit correctly in this orrientation. 8) Now you start reassembling the parts. Refit the plastic base (rotated through 90 degrees), the sliders (metal contacts on the left and top as you look at them), the central pivot, and the return springs (over the top left and bottom right bosses). 9) Slide the fine trim controls off the pot plate _carefully_. Hold the pot plate so that the track side is uppermost, the connection pads are on the top and right sides, and the fine trim controls are on the bottom and left sides. Refit the fine trim controls by sliding them on, takeing care to avoid damaging the contacts. 10) Use the socket end of a Sega extension cable for the connection to the Vectrex. Remove about 4" of outer covering from the cable, and recover 3 clips from the original cable. Do not touch the red jumper lead for the moment. 11) Crimp and solder these tags to the Green (pin 5, Pot0), Blue (Pin 6, Pot 1) and Grey (pin 7, +5V) on the cable. Now cut the red jumper wire complete wit it's tags from the original cable. Solder the white lead from the cable to one tag on the jumper wire. 12) Reconnect the leads to the pot plate in the following way, seen from the track side White + Red Jumper (-5V) / Blue (Pot 1) / / Grey (+5V) / / / / / / +-----####------####----####-----+ Green (Pot 0) | | / | # / | # / | # | | | | | | | | | | Red Jumper | # / | # / | # / | | +--------------------------------+ 13) Now take the PCB you removed earlier. Carefully desolder the slide swtich from it. Also cut the track between the fire button on the PCB and the first connector slot on the edge. 14) Connect 3 more wires from the cable to the holes left vacant by the removal of the slide switch as shown. ^ ^ | Notched edge of board, viewed from component (non-track side) | (Sw3) (Sw4) Orange----o o---- Yellow o o Red-------o o (Sw2) 15) Connect the black lead of the cable (0V) to the far left slot on the PCB. This slot is connected to all the other slots on the left of the fire button. 16) Re-install the fire button, the PCB, and the screws. 17) Reconnect the leads from the joystick handle to the PCB, in the same positions as they were originally. 18) Position the pot plate over the joystick mechanism. Use 2 of the cover screws to hold it in place 19 Plug the joystick into the vectrex, and use the joystick test in the diagnostic ROM to test it. 20 Cut a slot in the left side of the cover to allow the fine trim control to protrude. Copy this slot from the one on the right side, and file down the lower part of the cover in a similar way. 21) Use a couple of cable ties to make a strain-relief to hold the cable in the slot in the joystick body. 22) Remove the screws you fitted to hold the pot plate in place, fit the cover, and secure it with the 4 screws. Interface for Tandy Joystick - Vectrex ====================================== +5V +5V J5 )--------+--+---------+--------------------------------------------( V7 | | | Gy | \ 10k | | / | 10k | \ +----)---/\/\---+ | / | | | | | | |\| | | +----+--|-\ | Pot0 X | | >---------+---------------------------------( V5 J1 )--------)----------|+/ U1a Gn | |/ 1458 / \ 10k 100k / +----/\/\----+ \ | | | | | Y 47k | | |\ | J2 )--/\/\/-)------+---|-\ | Pot1 | | >-----+-------------------------------------( V6 +----------|+/ U1b Bu | |/| 1458 | | -5V / +--------------------------------------------( V9 \ 4k7 W / \ Gnd | 0V J3 )--------+------------------------------+-------------+------------( V8 | | Bk | | SW2 | -+ SW1 | -+ =| =| | -+ | -+ | | Sw1 | +------------( V1 | Br | | Sw2 +--------------------------( V2 R SwA Sw4 J4 )------------------------------------------------------------------( V4 Y SwB Sw3 J6 )------------------------------------------------------------------( V3 Or 6 pin DIN skt 9 pin D skt Theory ------ The switches are simple : The Tandy joystick has 2 fire buttons which ground the appropriate pins (4 and 6) on the connector when they are pressed. Thus, these pins are simply linked to the button 4 and 3 (respectively) inputs on the Vectrex. Two more buttons on the interface (SW1 and SW2) ground the remaining 2 Vectrex inputs. Although the Tnady joystick is proportional, it differs from the Vectrex unit in 2 important ways. a) The output voltage varies from 0 to +5V, not -5V to +5V b) The Tandy joystick output increases for movement to the right and movement down. The Vectrex joystick output increases for movement to the right and movement down. The conversion between these 2 systems is performed by U1, a 1458 Dual Op-Amp. U1a, wired as a non-inverting *2 amplifer, doubles the X voltage without reversing it. The input resistor is returned to the +5V line to provide the required voltage offset. U1b is wired as an inverting amplifier with a gain of approximately 2, which inverts and doubles the 'Y' voltage. The potential divider connected to the non-inverting input of this device provides the necessary offset. Notes ----- 1) Layout is not critical, and any standard technique should work 2) The Op-Amp used was a 1458. Any similar dual Op-Amp should work, but has not been tested. 3) Connection to the Vectrex is best performed by using the socket end of a Sega extension lead. The colours on the circuit diagram are the colours in the cable used for the original design. 4) Connection to the Joystick is perfomed by a 6-pin DIN socket 5) 2 more swtiches (SW1 and SW2) provide the extra 2 vectrex buttons. 6) Distribution and use of this circuit for the benefit of Vectrex owners is encouraged. Please feel free to put it on ftp sites, etc. PC Joystick 1 )--+ | 8 )--+ | 9 )--+ Vectrex | 15)--+----------------------------------------------------------------- R --( 7 +5v 2902(a) 75k |\ 6 )----/\/\/---+--------|+\ | | > --+-------------------------------------- Or --( 6 | +------|-/ | Pot 1 | | |/ | | | | | +---/\/\/-----+ | | 10k | \ | / 15k | \ 20k +--/\/\-----+ | / | | | | 2902(d) | |\ | | | |\ +----|-\ | | | +----|+\ 10k | | >---+------------- Y --( 5 | | | | >---+---/\/\/---+ +-|+/ Pot 0 | | | +-|-/ | | |/ | | | | |/ | | 2904(a) | | | +--------+ | 75k | | | | 3 )-----/\/\/--)-)---+--------------------------)--------+ | | | | 4 )--+ +-)----------------+ | | | | | | | 5 )--+-------+---+----------------)-------------+--------)------------ Bk --( 8 | | | | Gnd 12)--+ | | | | | | | | / | | | 10k \ | | | / +--------------)----------+ | | \ | | | | | | | | | | | | | 2902(b) | | 2902(c) | | | | |\ / | |\ / | +-----+-----|+\ |/ 2N3904 +--|+\ |/ | | | >--| | >--| 2N3904 | | +-----|-/ |\ +--|-/ |\ | | | |/ V | |/ V | / | | | | | 1k1 \ +-------------+ +----------+ | / | | | \ / / | | \ 15k \ 15k | | / / | | \ \ | | | | | | | | | +-----+-------------------------+------------------------ Gy --( 9 | -5V | +----+-------+ | | / \ 1 <==/ \==> 2 / o o \ | | | | 14)-------+------)---------------------------------------------------- W --( 1 | SW0 | 10)--------------+--------------------------------------------------- Bu --( 2 SW1 7 )------------------------------------------------------------------ Gn --( 3 SW2 2 )------------------------------------------------------------------ Br --( 4 SW3 Theory of operation -------------------- The buttons of both an IBM PC joystick and a Vectrex controller simply connect the input pin to ground. Thus the 2 button inputs from the IBM joystick connector (pins 2 and 7) are connected directly to the SW3 and SW2 inputs on the Vectrex. Since most IBM PC joysticks only have 2 buttons, 2 extra switches are fitted on the interface and connected to SW0 and SW1. However, these signals are also connected to pins 14 and 10 on the IBM PC joystick connector to allow the use of 4 button PC joysticks. The analogue inputs of a PC and a Vectrex are quite different. The PC joystick acts as a variable resistor from 0 to 150k with one end connected to +5V, while the Vectrex requires a varying voltage between about -4V and +4V. The interface also has to reverse the direction of the X axis, so the 2 channels are somewhat different in operation. The simpler Y channel will be described first. This channel consists of 2 main sections : a constand current sink to convert the changing resistance into a changing voltage and a *1.5 amplifier to convert the signal level to the correct one for the Vectrex. The +ve (non-inverting) input of section (b) of the 2902 is maintained at -4.5V by the potential divider consisting of the 10k and 1k1 resistors. The action of the op-amp thus maintains the -ve (inverting) input at the same potential and hence stabilises the current through the 15k resistor at 0.5/15 = 1/30 mA. This same current flows through the collector circuit of the 2N3904 (since the base current is negligable), and thus maintains a 2.5V drop across the 75K resistor. The collector circuit is completed by the 150k variable resistor between the joystick. Thus, the joystick drops between 0V (When the resistance is 0) and 5V (when the resistance is 150k), and hence the collector voltage of the 2N3904 varies from +2.5V to -2.5V respectively. This signal is amplified by section (a) of the 2902 (which is connected as a standard non-inverting amplifier with a gain of 1.5) and connected to the Pot 1 input on the Vectrex. The X axis channel operates in a similar way, and consists of a constant current sink, a *1 buffer amplifier and a *-1.5 amplifier to convert the signal level to that required by the vectrex. Section (c) of the 2902 and its associated components form a current sink indentical to the one described above. The output voltage on the collector of the 2N3904 transistor is buffered by section (d) of the 2902, which is connected as a standard voltage follower (unity-gain amplifier). The output of this stage is connected to section (a) of the 2904, which is connected as a standard inverting amplifier with a gain of -1.5. The output of this section is connected to the Pot 0 input on the Vectrex Notes ----- 1) Layout is not critical, and any standard construction method will work. 2) The Op-amp chips used (2902 (quad) and 2904 (dual)) may be difficult to obtain. The circuit will also work with the more common LM324 (to replace the 2902) and LM358 (to replace the 2904) 3) Since the power and ground connections to the joystick are identical to those used in a PC system, any autofire circuits in the joystick should still work. 4) The joystick connector is a standard DA15 socket, and the vectrex connection can be made using the cable from a Sega controller. The wire colours are those found in the cable I used, and are not standard. 5) The op-amp power connections are made to the +5V and -5V rails. 6) This schematic and the documentation are Copyright 1995 A.R.Duell. However, distribution for the benefit of Vectrex owners is encouraged, provided no profit is made. Feel free to upload this document to ftp sites, etc. Somewhere I have a commercial interface to use Atari swtich-type joysticks wit hthe CoCo. It's a few resistors an transsitors to give a midpoint votlage with no swithcs operated and +5V or ground if the approroitate swithce is closed. It;'s a litte plastic box with 2 DIN plugs on flying leads ot conenc to the CoCo (or Dragon) and 2 DE9 plugs for the Atri joysticks. I do not have a scheamtic of that yet, it would not take long to trace out if I could find the darn thing... > > > Of coruse it's entirely possible that IBM were planning on selling > > joysticks made by the same company that made the CoCo ones, but wired fro > > the 5150 adapter. > > a reasonable guess Since the Apple ][ Joystick interface is very similar to that on the PC, what were Apple][ compatible joyusticks like? Those would presumably have been quite easy to covert for the IBM 5150. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 16 15:24:15 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_=2D_Create_a?= =?windows-1252?Q?_public_venue_=2F_visitor=92s_center?= In-Reply-To: References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Using chrome and I don't see a problem, on neither Linux nor Windows. Ah, the benefit of special filters that by default remove Windoze CRAP. Do you even see the "[Windos 1252]" that was inserted in multiple p[laces in the subject line? (in addition to other corruption of the subject line text) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 15:26:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:26:30 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2012, at 3:48 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > * On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 07:47:45PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> >> I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough >> electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? > > It could be, yes, at the expense of a lot of board space. Given the size of modern transistors, less than you might think (if you have a single transistor for output, you're talking about just about 1cm above the fingers, really). > One of the biggest issues with the DEC busses nowadays is that they use > open collector drivers. What that means is that the signal lines in the > bus are normally held at something like 3.4V (a logical "on") by > resistors at both ends of the bus that terminate the bus and form a > voltage divider. The chips are all TTL, so if you were to just directly > connect a TTL-level driver to the bus and assert a "high" logic level, > it would try to pull the bus to +5V and you would be in a world of > trouble. The open collector drivers don't ever do that, they can either > pull the line down to ground, or they can act like an open circuit, but > that's it. That's how signaling on the DEC bus works - a bunch of open > collector drivers share the same line, and any of them can pull the line > down to ground, safely. That's not really the problem. There are plenty of open-collector TTL chips; the ones that I've found come closest to what you'd want (for QBUS, at least) are the 74AS640 and 74AS760. They're both heavy-hitting octal open-collector bus drivers (one is unidirectional, the other bidirectional). The primary attractive feature to me is the 64mA of current handling, which comes pretty close to the 70mA max I've seen in all the QBUS-related material so far. Their min fall time is a little too short, though. And their thresholds aren't quite where the DEC chips were, though they're probably close enough for most systems out there. As Allison pointed out, plenty of third-party manufacturers used '244s and '245s with success. > The old chips that were designed for this purpose also had other > electrical requirements, especially the amount of current they could > sink when pulling the bus to ground. > There are some open collector drivers still made, but not as many as you > would think. And certainly nothing I know of that is in a single > convenient package like the DEC or National or Signetics chips were. > There are some off-the-shelf things that are close but not close enough. See above. My major issue with them is that they pull down too fast (QBUS has a minimum of 5 ns). > Maybe the best bet would be to use a CPLD with open collector outputs > and +5V tolerant inputs on the other side? Though you'd have to be > careful about current sinking requirements. A CPLD can't sink nearly enough current. A 2N4401, on the other hand, should do nicely (assuming you keep it from saturating). > Anyway, it's not as easy as I wish it were :) Believe me, I'd love a > QBus card with a CompactFlash or SDCard that knew how to speak MSCP. But > if anyone wants to actually build it, it'll be a lot of work. Well, yes. :-) - Dave From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 16 15:29:27 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:29:27 +0100 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <022101cdabdc$f189d7f0$d49d87d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 16 October 2012 00:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > > Most of the discussion on this that other people have brought up, is why I > liked Brad Parkers "udisk" approach so much. His design goals > were: > > Create a low cost unibus adapter card which can emulate a small number of > popular controllers (RL11, UDA50, etc) and use an IDE or CF disk as the > actual media. > > Make it easy for others to write personality modules for different > controllers. > > Should allow use of a IDE/CF disk to boot a PDP-11 (or vax). > Specifically, I was enamored of the approach that allowed a user to write > their own personality module to change it from acting like a SCSI controller > vs. SDI vs. etc.... all via software. This would seem to me to be the most > functional approach for the most people. > > I'll pony up a bounty of $300 to get someone to take those design goals > through to a kit form. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Or take up the > gauntlet? :) > > J I think there are actually two approaches, depending on what hardware you have already. The first is the udisk approach. That allows you to emulate any card for the bus that the card is designed for. You would need different cards for Unibus and for Qbus, and I suspect for some protocols like MSCP it the software might be hard to write, not well documented etc. The second is to emulate at the disk interface. For example the MFM interface for RD53/54 like I am interested in, or SCSI. In this case you need different cards for different interface technologies but could use existing controller. I like this approach more because you have more of the original hardware, but recognise that not everyone will have that hardware (I have a few RQDX3, one KZQSA, but I don't have, and really want, a KFQSA). I have a few RD53/54 that will last me a while but when they are gone they are gone, and I find it increasingly hard to find sub 1GB 50-pin SCSI, so I want to emulate at that level. Don't have the design ability really but I may try to breadboard something some day. I think this solution may also be easier to get parts for, particularly the line drivers, which seem to be hard for Qbus. Regards Rob From lists at loomcom.com Tue Oct 16 15:54:29 2012 From: lists at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:54:29 -0400 Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> * On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 01:24:15PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > > Using chrome and I don't see a problem, on neither Linux nor Windows. > > Ah, the benefit of special filters that by default remove Windoze CRAP. > > Do you even see the "[Windos 1252]" that was inserted in multiple p[laces > in the subject line? (in addition to other corruption of the subject line > text) Huh! I did not, at first. This is interesting (at least to me). My preferred email client is "Mutt", which runs in a Unix shell just like pine or elm. No fancy gui here, just good old plain text. Or, so I thought. Apparently it knew how to interpret that crazy Windows subject line and hide it from me. When I asked to see the raw headers, this is what it showed: > Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= > =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= Absolutely bizarre. This must be a MIME feature that I'm not familiar with. -Seth From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 16 15:59:19 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:26:30 -0400 > From: David Riley > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > > On Oct 16, 2012, at 3:48 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > >> * On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 07:47:45PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> >>> I have heard the problem with driver chips before. I don't know enough >>> electronics really, but could it be done with discrete components? >> >> It could be, yes, at the expense of a lot of board space. > > Given the size of modern transistors, less than you might think (if you > have a single transistor for output, you're talking about just about 1cm > above the fingers, really). > >> One of the biggest issues with the DEC busses nowadays is that they use >> open collector drivers. What that means is that the signal lines in the >> bus are normally held at something like 3.4V (a logical "on") by >> resistors at both ends of the bus that terminate the bus and form a >> voltage divider. The chips are all TTL, so if you were to just directly >> connect a TTL-level driver to the bus and assert a "high" logic level, >> it would try to pull the bus to +5V and you would be in a world of >> trouble. The open collector drivers don't ever do that, they can either >> pull the line down to ground, or they can act like an open circuit, but >> that's it. That's how signaling on the DEC bus works - a bunch of open >> collector drivers share the same line, and any of them can pull the line >> down to ground, safely. > > That's not really the problem. There are plenty of open-collector > TTL chips; the ones that I've found come closest to what you'd want > (for QBUS, at least) are the 74AS640 and 74AS760. They're both > heavy-hitting octal open-collector bus drivers (one is unidirectional, > the other bidirectional). The primary attractive feature to me is > the 64mA of current handling, which comes pretty close to the 70mA > max I've seen in all the QBUS-related material so far. Their min > fall time is a little too short, though. And their thresholds > aren't quite where the DEC chips were, though they're probably close > enough for most systems out there. As Allison pointed out, plenty > of third-party manufacturers used '244s and '245s with success. > >> The old chips that were designed for this purpose also had other >> electrical requirements, especially the amount of current they could >> sink when pulling the bus to ground. > >> There are some open collector drivers still made, but not as many as you >> would think. And certainly nothing I know of that is in a single >> convenient package like the DEC or National or Signetics chips were. >> There are some off-the-shelf things that are close but not close enough. > > See above. My major issue with them is that they pull down too > fast (QBUS has a minimum of 5 ns). > >> Maybe the best bet would be to use a CPLD with open collector outputs >> and +5V tolerant inputs on the other side? Though you'd have to be >> careful about current sinking requirements. > > A CPLD can't sink nearly enough current. A 2N4401, on the other hand, > should do nicely (assuming you keep it from saturating). > >> Anyway, it's not as easy as I wish it were :) Believe me, I'd love a >> QBus card with a CompactFlash or SDCard that knew how to speak MSCP. But >> if anyone wants to actually build it, it'll be a lot of work. > > Well, yes. :-) > > > > - Dave > > A bipolar transistor will turn off too slowly for this use, but a little SOT-23 MOSFET will work just fine (and a series resistor in the gate can tailor the on/off slew rates) You can get ones with less than 5 pF output capacitance that will easily sink 100 mA with less than .7V VOL but discretes would add to the assembly cost... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 16 16:15:06 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= >> =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= > Absolutely bizarre. This must be a MIME feature that I'm not > familiar with. See RFC 1522. Mouse From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 16:24:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:24:03 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> On Oct 16, 2012, at 4:59 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > A bipolar transistor will turn off too slowly for this use, but a little SOT-23 MOSFET will work just fine (and a series resistor in the gate can tailor the on/off slew rates) You can get ones with less than 5 pF output capacitance that will easily sink 100 mA with less than .7V VOL You could keep the bipolar from saturating with a Schottky clamp, but at the expense of even more parts. I like the idea of a FET, but I haven't looked very hard at the available parts. > but discretes would add to the assembly cost... Certainly. Or, if one makes a kit, they add to the headache of the consumer. :-) Some of us don't mind soldering upwards of 40 tiny SOT parts, but some do. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 16 16:32:46 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201210162132.RAA26116@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> A bipolar transistor will turn off too slowly for this [...] > You could keep the bipolar from saturating with a Schottky clamp, but > at the expense of even more parts. Don't single packages containing transistor and clamp exist? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 16:54:08 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:54:08 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <022101cdabdc$f189d7f0$d49d87d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <022101cdabdc$f189d7f0$d49d87d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 16 October 2012 16:29, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West >> Sent: 16 October 2012 00:43 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? >> >> Most of the discussion on this that other people have brought up, is why I >> liked Brad Parkers "udisk" approach so much. His design goals >> were: >> >> Create a low cost unibus adapter card which can emulate a small number of >> popular controllers (RL11, UDA50, etc) and use an IDE or CF disk as the >> actual media. >> >> Make it easy for others to write personality modules for different >> controllers. >> >> Should allow use of a IDE/CF disk to boot a PDP-11 (or vax). >> Specifically, I was enamored of the approach that allowed a user to write >> their own personality module to change it from acting like a SCSI > controller >> vs. SDI vs. etc.... all via software. This would seem to me to be the most >> functional approach for the most people. >> >> I'll pony up a bounty of $300 to get someone to take those design goals >> through to a kit form. Anyone want to add to the bounty? Or take up the >> gauntlet? :) >> >> J > > I think there are actually two approaches, depending on what hardware you > have already. > > The first is the udisk approach. That allows you to emulate any card for the > bus that the card is designed for. You would need different cards for Unibus > and for Qbus, and I suspect for some protocols like MSCP it the software > might be hard to write, not well documented etc. > > The second is to emulate at the disk interface. For example the MFM > interface for RD53/54 like I am interested in, or SCSI. In this case you > need different cards for different interface technologies but could use > existing controller. I like this approach more because you have more of the > original hardware, but recognise that not everyone will have that hardware > (I have a few RQDX3, one KZQSA, but I don't have, and really want, a KFQSA). > I have a few RD53/54 that will last me a while but when they are gone they > are gone, and I find it increasingly hard to find sub 1GB 50-pin SCSI, so I > want to emulate at that level. Don't have the design ability really but I > may try to breadboard something some day. I think this solution may also be > easier to get parts for, particularly the line drivers, which seem to be > hard for Qbus. > > Regards > > Rob > Hmm... In terms of a "udisk" board, instead of re-inventing the wheel and trying to rediscover all of the various controller information, could one not attempt to reuse code from a software emulation of said device? In other words, doing something like abusing the code of SIMH's RQ, or RL driver into something usable by the electronics on the board as a definition of the controller. If that could work, you could easily cut down on the needing to re-invent the wheel with regards to figuring out protocols. (Since if the protocol wasn't written correctly enough for the emulator, software wouldn't run correctly, or at all.) Hmm... actually... This is probably an unworkable idea, but I'll throw it out there any way... How difficult a job would it be to "rip out" the CPU/bus controller/memory code of SIMH, and replace it with an interface to a real bus controller/listener program? This way you could keep the already written and functional-in-the-eyes-of-the-original-software device code, and you get a small plethora of devices. If one wanted to have a nearly "truly universal" controller card, you could make the card a relatively dumb device, with only the logic to interface between the program and the QBUS/UNIBUS in the card, while you have a bastardized SIMH sitting on a separate computer which let's you have the machine see any controller you so choose to enable (11/83 with DECtape any one?). Of course, that's just an idea, and probably a lousy one at that. But I'm just putting it out there, since it popped into my head. Cheers, Christian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 16 16:56:04 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> > > > > Re: A petition to Apple's Leadership Team - Create a public > > > > venue / visitors center > > > It was NOT ASCII. > > > What I got was: > > > =?Windows-1252?B?UmU&IEEEgcGVCaXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaG1wIFR > > > and so forth! > > Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= > > =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= > > Absolutely bizarre. This must be a MIME feature that I'm not > > familiar with. On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > See RFC 1522. Thank you. I did. What "NON ASCII" characters "needed" to be "corrected" in the original subject line (reproduced at the top of this message) to justify such corruption? I got ONE that was COMPLETELY incomprehensibly garbled, and am getting the rest with extraneous "[Windows 1252]"s sprinkled throughout. I can easily wade through that; it is just annoying. (I am currently reading this on PINE in a unix shell account - am I being pressured into using Outhouse?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 16:58:35 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:58:35 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <201210162132.RAA26116@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> <201210162132.RAA26116@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2012, at 17:32, Mouse wrote: >>> A bipolar transistor will turn off too slowly for this [...] >> You could keep the bipolar from saturating with a Schottky clamp, but >> at the expense of even more parts. > > Don't single packages containing transistor and clamp exist? They do. I've been trying to stick to more "standard" devices (for some nominal definition of "standard") to minimize both overall cost and the probability of early obsolescence. I haven't done enough research into integrated Schottky transistors to see if there are any which approach 2N3904/4401 levels of popularity, but that's all in my queue. - Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 16 17:22:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:22:23 -0600 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <507DDE1F.1030703@brouhaha.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > One of the biggest issues with the DEC busses nowadays is that they use > open collector drivers. The drivers aren't that difficult. The receivers are more of a problem. The threshold voltage doesn't match anything commonly available. > Maybe the best bet would be to use a CPLD with open collector outputs > and +5V tolerant inputs on the other side? CPLDs (or for that matter FPGAs) don't have anywhere near the output drive. Also their drivers have edge rates that are way too fast. From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 16 17:25:51 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <2C9B8EDB-3627-4F96-A45A-D2777238BBA4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:24:03 -0400 > From: David Riley > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > > On Oct 16, 2012, at 4:59 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> A bipolar transistor will turn off too slowly for this use, but a little SOT-23 MOSFET will work just fine (and a series resistor in the gate can tailor the on/off slew rates) You can get ones with less than 5 pF output capacitance that will easily sink 100 mA with less than .7V VOL > > You could keep the bipolar from saturating with a Schottky clamp, but at > the expense of even more parts. I like the idea of a FET, but I haven't > looked very hard at the available parts. > >> but discretes would add to the assembly cost... > > Certainly. Or, if one makes a kit, they add to the headache of the > consumer. :-) Some of us don't mind soldering upwards of 40 tiny SOT > parts, but some do. > > > - Dave > > A FDV301N is close and would work with 3.3V gate drive from CPLD/FPGA Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 16 17:37:49 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <507DDE1F.1030703@brouhaha.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <507DDE1F.1030703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:22:23 -0600 > From: Eric Smith > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? > > Seth Morabito wrote: >> One of the biggest issues with the DEC busses nowadays is that they use >> open collector drivers. > > The drivers aren't that difficult. The receivers are more of a problem. The > threshold voltage doesn't match anything commonly available. A good high impedance (48K) RS-422 receiver can do it but would violate the 0V leakage current (~30 uA vs 10 uA) This may not be an issue since you only need one of the cards (one lead tied to 1.5V so 1.5V +- 200 mV and even adjustable if you like) > >> Maybe the best bet would be to use a CPLD with open collector outputs >> and +5V tolerant inputs on the other side? > > CPLDs (or for that matter FPGAs) don't have anywhere near the output drive. > Also their drivers have edge rates that are way too fast. > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Oct 16 17:38:19 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210162238.SAA26278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> =?Windows-1252?B?UmU&IEEEgcGVCaXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaG1wIFR >>> Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= >>> =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= >> See RFC 1522. > Thank you. I did. > What "NON ASCII" characters "needed" to be "corrected" in the > original subject line (reproduced at the top of this message) to > justify such corruption? Well, look at the characters that got encoded: >>> Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?...=27...?= >>> =?windows-1252?Q?...=92...= See that =92? 0x92 is not within the ASCII range. Based on the way it's used, I suspect it is some kind of apostropheish character in 1252. (Indeed, I my mailer regularly sees mail marked as being 8859-1 with such octets in it; it's not a valid 8859-1 printable either. Most of those I manage to reject automatically.) Not much justification at the human layer, but quite enough at the software layer - the software is not in a position to tell when "visitor's" is a suitable substitute for that "visitor?s" (for whatever value of ?) in the subject. And far too many people are unwilling (or unable) to make sure they don't perpetrate such horrors accidentally. > I got ONE that was COMPLETELY incomprehensibly garbled, and am > getting the rest with extraneous "[Windows 1252]"s sprinkled > throughout. I can easily wade through that; it is just annoying. It is. There are times when I think the cure is worse than the disease in this case. (Most of the time I come down on the other side. But, occasionally....) As for the "incomprehensibly garbled" one, if you mean the one I quoted at the very top of this mail,that was using ?B? rather than ?Q?, meaning you need to use base64 to instead of quoted-printable to get the (presumably-)intended octet string out. > (I am currently reading this on PINE in a unix shell account - am I > being pressured into using Outhouse?) In a sense, in that that is under some conditions the least-effort way to shut up the uglification. It's not much of an option to me, of course, but the people who choose (by choice of MUA) to generate it seem to think there's nothing wrong with it. I exert a minor pressure against it by calling them on it intermittently and, in list cases, not too infrequently skipping a message if it has too many of the various things like this that make it harder to read. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 16 18:01:30 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:01:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> Re: A petition to Apple's Leadership Team - Create a public >>>>> venue / visitors center >>>> It was NOT ASCII. >>>> What I got was: >>>> =?Windows-1252?B?UmU&IEEEgcGVCaXRpb24gdG8gQXBwbGUncyBMZWFkZXJzaG1wIFR >>>> and so forth! >>> Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?A_petition_to_Apple=27s_Leadership_Team_-_Creat?= >>> =?windows-1252?Q?e_a_public_venue_/_visitor=92s_center?= >>> Absolutely bizarre. This must be a MIME feature that I'm not >>> familiar with. > > On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > >> See RFC 1522. > > Thank you. I did. > What "NON ASCII" characters "needed" to be "corrected" in the original > subject line (reproduced at the top of this message) to justify such > corruption? It was caused by the unicode character used as an apostrophe in the "visitor's center" part of the subject line (I used a standard apostrophe in my example here). My guess is it happened from cutting and pasting part of the subject line from a website? > I got ONE that was COMPLETELY incomprehensibly garbled, and am getting > the rest with extraneous "[Windows 1252]"s sprinkled throughout. I can > easily wade through that; it is just annoying. > > (I am currently reading this on PINE in a unix shell account - am I > being pressured into using Outhouse?) I'm using Alpine and it apparently handled it since I never even noticed until it was brought up. I do purposefully run a UTF-8 capable terminal emulator though. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 16 18:19:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: <201210162238.SAA26278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> <201210162238.SAA26278@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121016161715.O52427@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > Not much justification at the human layer, but quite enough at the > software layer - the software is not in a position to tell when > "visitor's" is a suitable substitute for that "visitor?s" (for whatever > value of ?) in the subject. And far too many people are unwilling (or > unable) to make sure they don't perpetrate such horrors accidentally. > It is. There are times when I think the cure is worse than the disease > in this case. (Most of the time I come down on the other side. But, > occasionally....) Thank you for understanding my frustration > As for the "incomprehensibly garbled" one, if you mean the one I quoted > at the very top of this mail,that was using ?B? rather than ?Q?, > meaning you need to use base64 to instead of quoted-printable to get > the (presumably-)intended octet string out. Thanks. That explains it, although I'm not sure why it ocurred with that one message. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 16 18:22:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Subject Lines and Windows-1252 [Was: Re: A petition to ...] In-Reply-To: References: <9BD06ECF-D427-4DAD-9380-A5D1EEBCCC23@classiccomputing.com> <1689540045-1350358292-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1689677197-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <20121015205203.Q30621@shell.lmi.net> <507CE501.7040309@brouhaha.com> <20121016132141.Y52427@shell.lmi.net> <20121016205429.GA15820@mail.loomcom.com> <201210162115.RAA26036@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20121016144338.H52427@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121016161930.M52427@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote: > It was caused by the unicode character used as an apostrophe in the > "visitor's center" part of the subject line (I used a standard apostrophe > in my example here). My guess is it happened from cutting and pasting part > of the subject line from a website? Ah HA! I missed that one when I was looking for what had triggered the corruption. > > (I am currently reading this on PINE in a unix shell account - am I > > being pressured into using Outhouse?) > I'm using Alpine and it apparently handled it since I never even noticed > until it was brought up. I do purposefully run a UTF-8 capable terminal > emulator though. Until recently, I was using Windoze Telnet. My ISP suddenly decided to drop telnet access and I had to switch to "PUTTY" SSH. PUTTY is pretty good, but it has a few bizarre idosyncracies, such as its non-standard handling of cut and paste. I use Outhouse quite a bit at work, and don't like it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 18:56:18 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:56:18 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <022101cdabdc$f189d7f0$d49d87d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4645B78D-6FE2-4852-8222-CC6A1EFCCF72@gmail.com> On Oct 16, 2012, at 17:54, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > In terms of a "udisk" board, instead of re-inventing the wheel and > trying to rediscover all of the various controller information, could > one not attempt to reuse code from a software emulation of said > device? In other words, doing something like abusing the code of > SIMH's RQ, or RL driver into something usable by the electronics on > the board as a definition of the controller. If that could work, you > could easily cut down on the needing to re-invent the wheel with > regards to figuring out protocols. (Since if the protocol wasn't > written correctly enough for the emulator, software wouldn't run > correctly, or at all.) That's certainly what I'd planned to do as a start (or at least use SIMH's MSCP implementation as a guideline if it's not directly usable). > How difficult a job would it be to "rip out" the CPU/bus > controller/memory code of SIMH, and replace it with an interface to a > real bus controller/listener program? This way you could keep the > already written and functional-in-the-eyes-of-the-original-software > device code, and you get a small plethora of devices. Things like that certainly exist commercially (I'd provide links, but I'm on my phone). It typically requires something rather low-latency, like an ISA or PCI card on the host end; something like USB just has too long a latency to be useful. My proposition for my card is (for simple devices, anyway) a microcontroller attached to an FPGA or CPLD which provides a thin QBUS/UNIBUS transaction layer. This is how a lot of controllers were implemented back in the day, only somewhat less integrated; the onboard micro responds to bus transactions as an interrupt service routine. This allows you to pretty fully decouple the controller logic from the somewhat-more-static FPGA/CPLD design. - Dave From g-wright at att.net Tue Oct 16 19:41:23 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apollo Monitors Free, Kent. Wa. USA Message-ID: <1350434483.52492.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have 3 Apollo Monitors with cables -8398 low res. color 19" -8399 Hi res. black and white 19" -01070 Hi res color 19" All did work a few years ago. All off DN3xxx, DN4XXX and DN5XXX work stations No shipping. very heavy - Jerry From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 16 19:54:33 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:54:33 -0600 Subject: Seeking Xylogics/Bay/Nortel fanout cables In-Reply-To: <20121014191424.1525EA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20121013234252.75820A5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20121014191424.1525EA5826E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20121014191424.1525EA5826E at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > > Do these use an unshielded AMP CHAMP type connector? Is there a > > pinout and photo of these available somewhere? They sure don't sound > > very complicated. > > I don't recall them being shielded, and you're right, they're _not_ > complicated. I think I've got the pinout somewhere, and I can certainly > build some, was just hoping (lazy!) that I could avoid it. I have manuals and I believe the pinout is in the manuals. I bought one NIB but it didn't have the fanout cable. Then the guy who runs a local ISP said "shit, we threw a bunch out, I didn't know you wanted them!" He still had one or two leftover which he gave me. They looked homebrewed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:01:53 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: References: <1349496663.36660.BPMail_low_carrier@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Oct 5, 12 09:11:03 pm Message-ID: <1350435713.28754.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell ? > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give > disk back. Do I have to take it apart? I hope I am not statign the obvious, but if you have the 'standard' drives (and you pretty much have to have), you put the disk in and then press the button alongside the disk. This locks the disk in place, enables the heads to load, etc. To get hte disk out, you press the button again. If that doesn't work, you have to dismantle the machine, take the drives out. Tkak the loading mechansim apart and clan off the gungned-up grease. I cna talk you through it. -tony C: I likely won't be able to discern what you're saying (I'm terrible at understanding people's accents). ???? If I hear from the gentleman I sold it to, I might be calling upon you. In my own accent :) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 20:05:53 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 18:05:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> References: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Jan Kraan > you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give > disk back. Do I have to take it apart? The SD-321 drives have a lock mechanism that should release the disk when the button is in the 'out' position. But it doesn't as the old grease keeps the lock in place. I have observed this with both the QX10 and the TF-20 which both use the 1/3 height SD-321 disk drives. So far I managed to get my disks back by prying the lock upwards (or was it downwards?) with my fingers (not very pleasant work). Everytime I plan to fix the drive by replacing the gunked grease, but so far it didn't happen. Greetings & success, Fred Jan C: for arguments sake (and in the event the stuck disk is expendable), couldn't you remove the drive and soak it w/isopropyl alcohol or something? To wash away the old grease? From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:09:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:09:47 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <507DDE1F.1030703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2012, at 6:37 PM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > >> The drivers aren't that difficult. The receivers are more of a problem. The threshold voltage doesn't match anything commonly available. > > A good high impedance (48K) RS-422 receiver can do it but would violate the 0V leakage current (~30 uA vs 10 uA) This may not be an issue since you only need one of the cards > > (one lead tied to 1.5V so 1.5V +- 200 mV and even adjustable if you like) For that matter, a good high-speed comparator will do the trick admirably (throw in a little positive feedback for hysteresis and overdrive and you're good). Last I checked (which was not a totally exhaustive search about a year ago), it was hard to find ones that met: - 35 ns Tpd - <= 9.35 pf input capacitance - <= 80 uA input impedance - < $1 per gate All the fast ones turn out to be really expensive, and when you're talking about as many inputs as you need (22 for QBUS' BDAL lines alone, plus a bunch of others), it adds up quickly. So I'd like to see what can be done with discrete logic, ideally FETs. Logic thresholds, especially with FET gates, are a bit out of my league, but it's one of those things I'd love to learn if only I could find some good reading material. My initial thought is that you'd at least want something akin to a cascode arrangement, since the Miller capacitance on a straight-up grounded-emitter amplifier is likely to be ugly; I might be over thinking it. One benefit of doing the bus logic in a CPLD/FPGA is that the polarity of the data coming in doesn't matter for any practical purpose. If you were to decompose things into, say, a PAL and some 74xx gates, it can become a little hairier. In any case, my recollection is that the data on QBUS is inverted, which makes things easier for single-transistor drivers (and other inverting logic, which is presumably why). - Dave From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:17:13 2012 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:17:13 -0400 Subject: Apollo Monitors Free, Kent. Wa. USA In-Reply-To: <1350434483.52492.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350434483.52492.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Jerry Wright wrote: > I have 3 Apollo Monitors with cables > > -8398 low res. color 19" > -8399 Hi res. black and white 19" > -01070 Hi res color 19" > > All did work a few years ago. All off DN3xxx, DN4XXX and DN5XXX work > stations. > > No shipping. very heavy Where are they located? From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 16 20:39:41 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 20:39:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > Fred Jan Kraan wrote: >> Chris Tofu wrote: >> >>> you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give >>> disk back. Do I have to take it apart? >> >> The SD-321 drives have a lock mechanism that should release the disk >> when the button is in the 'out' position. But it doesn't as the old >> grease keeps the lock in place. I have observed this with both the QX10 >> and the TF-20 which both use the 1/3 height SD-321 disk drives. So far >> I managed to get my disks back by prying the lock upwards (or was it >> downwards?) with my fingers (not very pleasant work). Everytime I plan >> to fix the drive by replacing the gunked grease, but so far it didn't >> happen. > > for arguments sake (and in the event the stuck disk is expendable), > couldn't you remove the drive and soak it w/isopropyl alcohol or > something? To wash away the old grease? That might begin to loosen the old grease but won't remove it and might well damage any electromechanical parts such as motors. Once the IPA evaporates, the grease will re-solidify anyway since the original oils in the grease have dried up. Better still, disassemble the drive and soak the _mechanical_ bits in mineral spirits (white spirits, paint thinner) and brush the gunk off with an old toothbrush. Mineral spirits can be reused again and again for this type of cleaning, just pour off the used solution into an airtight container such as a glass mason jar and allow the grease and such to settle to the bottom. Once clean, reassemble with fresh grease. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:51:06 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 02:51:06 +0100 Subject: Apollo Monitors Free, Kent. Wa. USA In-Reply-To: References: <1350434483.52492.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2012 02:17, Tony Aiuto wrote: > > Where are they located? >From the subject line: Kent. Wa. USA -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 16 20:52:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:52:30 -0400 Subject: Apollo Monitors Free, Kent. Wa. USA In-Reply-To: References: <1350434483.52492.YahooMailRC@web181402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51EC7A96-F579-4DDD-979F-8C230ACC83E4@gmail.com> On Oct 16, 2012, at 21:17, Tony Aiuto wrote: >> No shipping. very heavy > > > Where are they located? My spidey-sense says Kent, WA (USA). - Dave From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Oct 16 22:38:29 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 22:38:29 -0500 Subject: HP calculator R-> Message-ID: Hey HP gurus, trying to read printouts from HP 67 programs and run them on my new HP35s Does this R-> in the printout mean an enter keypress? In general is there an interpretation of HP 65 program printouts to the associated keys? Randy From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 00:02:07 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 01:02:07 -0400 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection Message-ID: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> I've got the need to connect a logic analyzer to a socketed 84-pin PLCC IC. The test clips I'm familiar with won't attach properly because they expect a soldered chip instead. Besides removing the socket and resoldering the IC directly to the PCB and using a traditional test clip (which are affordable), are there any other plug-and-play solutions? I've found these http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off-the-shelf_solutions/logic_analyzer-scope_adapters/socketable_bug_katchers/plcc/ http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=BC4-84-PCC5-0000 ($308) and http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=pa84-pp ($185 US) which seem pretty darn cool, but also pretty darn expensive. The PCB is almost 30 years old, for whatever that's worth. Thanks, Keith From monahan at vitasoft.org Tue Oct 16 17:42:26 2012 From: monahan at vitasoft.org (John Monahan) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:42:26 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board Message-ID: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> In case you missed it on one of the web postings I would like to mention that Andrew Lynch and I have just completed a prototype of a new 80386 Master/Slave CPU S-100 bus board. This exciting board is capable of reaching up to12MHz in an S-100 system with an active terminated bus. This is an ongoing project. It utilizes the 16 bit mode of the 80386 to address the 16MG of RAM the S-100 bus is capable of addressing. A second daughter board system with an overhead ribbon cable connector is planned to for daughter board(s) to enlarge the RAM space up to the 4GB the CPU is capable of addressing (using high density static and DRAM chips). If you would like to read about this board please look here:- http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/80386%20Board/80386%20CPU%20Boa rd.htm It is too early to accept "orders" for this board, but if you would like to be kept in the loop as this board evolves keep an eye on the above page. John Monahan Ph.D e-mail: monahan at vitasoft.org Text: monahan at txt.att.net From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 04:17:42 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:17:42 +0100 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: On 16 October 2012 23:42, John Monahan wrote: > > This is an ongoing project. It utilizes the 16 bit mode of the 80386 to > address the 16MG of RAM the S-100 bus is capable of addressing. Just out of curiosity: Wouldn't an 80386SX have avoided this restriction and been much easier? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 17 04:43:19 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:43:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > That's not really the problem. There are plenty of open-collector > TTL chips; the ones that I've found come closest to what you'd want > (for QBUS, at least) are the 74AS640 and 74AS760. They're both The '640 is tri-state. You mean e.g. the '642. Only problem: They are almost unavailable and VERY pricy. The "ideal" IC solution today would be the SN7438, still produced. It is almost identical to the SN7439 that DEC used as bus drivers (equal to N8881). Otherwise just use some SN7406 as drivers; they are adequate in most Unibus applications today where you don't have bus lengths of several meters. > See above. My major issue with them is that they pull down too > fast (QBUS has a minimum of 5 ns). Is that a real-world issue or just hypothetical? We have a custom external semiconductor memory expansion for our 11/20 where they used SN7401 as bus drivers! Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Oct 17 05:36:05 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:36:05 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Altos OASIS Message-ID: Hi, I'd like to play with the OASIS operating system for the Altos 5-15 (downloaded from Dave's site). After logging in I get the '>' prompt. Apparently, they use some kind of stack within their CLI as I can use it as an RPN calculator (just like FORTH in OpenBoot environments). The usual candidates like DIR, CAT etc. aren't recognized, LIST gives 'File name missing', LIST * gives 'File extenstion missing', and LIST *.* gives, well, nothing. So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? Christian From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 06:01:40 2012 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:01:40 -0400 Subject: IDE Disk Test Stand? Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20121017065853.0255dab0@verizon.net> Does anyone know the story behind this device listed currently on ebay? I've never seen anything like this... Item number 290668689315 , under the title "Miniature Hard Disk Drive IDE Spinstand for Testing/Development/Data Recovery" Just curious, I'm not the seller. Doug From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 05:54:22 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:54:22 -0300 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection References: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> It depends on how much you want to wait, and/or how much you want to spend/work You can do an adapter, but it is some trouble and work Or you can wait it appear on Ebay :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Monahan" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:02 AM Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection > I've got the need to connect a logic analyzer to a socketed 84-pin PLCC > IC. The test clips I'm familiar with won't attach properly because they > expect a soldered chip instead. > > Besides removing the socket and resoldering the IC directly to the PCB and > using a traditional test clip (which are affordable), are there any other > plug-and-play solutions? > > I've found these > > http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off-the-shelf_solutions/logic_analyzer-scope_adapters/socketable_bug_katchers/plcc/ > > http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=BC4-84-PCC5-0000 > ($308) > > and > > http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=pa84-pp ($185 US) > > which seem pretty darn cool, but also pretty darn expensive. > > The PCB is almost 30 years old, for whatever that's worth. > > Thanks, > Keith From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 06:24:22 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:24:22 +0200 Subject: ValueWord & ValueNotes In-Reply-To: <507572C0.8010403@xs4all.nl> References: <443627909-1349832440-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620815712-@b25.c21.bise6.blackberry> <507572C0.8010403@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <507E9566.6000504@xs4all.nl> On 10-10-2012 15:06, MG wrote: > On 10-10-2012 3:27, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Do you remember what type of system it was or what operating system? > > Not exactly. It was a high-quality mid-1980s "IBM PC"-compatible > by Olivetti, I believe of the same type which eventually was > licensed to AT&T in America. I believe it was something in the > lines of an Olivetti M24, M240 or similar, around 1986-'88. > > The problem is, a (much older and very cunning) cousin of mine > took that system with the approval of my parents. I was too > young to intervene and I didn't realize how nice these Olivetti > systems were. > > - MG So, I assume it's safe to say that it was 8088 or early 8086 software. One of the two, the software probably appeared for a number of PC and compatible platforms. - MG From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 07:05:02 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:05:02 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:17, Liam Proven wrote: > On 16 October 2012 23:42, John Monahan wrote: >> >> This is an ongoing project. It utilizes the 16 bit mode of the 80386 to >> address the 16MG of RAM the S-100 bus is capable of addressing. > > Just out of curiosity: > > Wouldn't an 80386SX have avoided this restriction and been much easier? To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- mount packages. The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 group) have done a pretty good job of making sure all their boards can be assembled with only through-hole parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers with cheap irons. - Dave From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 07:16:59 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:16:59 +0200 Subject: HP calculator R-> In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2EBBCA7C-7C69-444A-92FB-E0E6CA5DD62B@xs4all.nl> MOHP www.hpmuseum.org is the place you should find the answer. -Rik Op 17 okt. 2012 om 05:38 heeft Randy Dawson het volgende geschreven: > > Hey HP gurus, trying to read printouts from HP 67 programs and run them on my new HP35s > > Does this R-> in the printout mean an enter keypress? > > In general is there an interpretation of HP 65 program printouts to the associated keys? > > Randy > > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 07:18:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:18:26 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> Message-ID: <41F9541A-42F8-4C49-8B98-C6498E59825F@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:43, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 16 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: >> That's not really the problem. There are plenty of open-collector >> TTL chips; the ones that I've found come closest to what you'd want >> (for QBUS, at least) are the 74AS640 and 74AS760. They're both > > The '640 is tri-state. You mean e.g. the '642. Only problem: They are almost unavailable and VERY pricy. Uh, yes, that's what I meant. Sorry! In any case, they're usually fairly available at Mouser, but yes, they're somewhat pricy. > The "ideal" IC solution today would be the SN7438, still produced. It is almost identical to the SN7439 that DEC used as bus drivers (equal to N8881). Otherwise just use some SN7406 as drivers; they are adequate in most Unibus applications today where you don't have bus lengths of several > meters. Those would probably make OK drivers, though I'd personally prefer something that came closer to the Iol of 70 mA (again, I'm thinking more about QBUS, which specifies the maximum output voltage when sinking 70 mA). >> See above. My major issue with them is that they pull down too >> fast (QBUS has a minimum of 5 ns). > > Is that a real-world issue or just hypothetical? We have a custom external semiconductor memory expansion for our 11/20 where they used SN7401 as bus drivers! I'm sure it works well enough in practice, especially on small systems. I think the DEC bus specs are probably excessive until you get to a many-meter backplane with a bunch of extensions which add impedance discontinuities; I imagine then you start to see why their thresholds are set where they are. A first pass using commodity chips that "just work" might not be a bad idea just to get the ball rolling; more compliant solutions can be devised later, and a 7438 solution isn't going to blow anything up. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 07:58:24 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 07:58:24 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507EAB70.7050404@gmail.com> On 10/16/2012 01:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Mon, 15 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I have no idea what it's for. The HDA cannot be presurised in normal use, >>> there is a breather filter. One suggestio nwas that clean ar was squred >>> in there when the HDA was made, forcing any resitual dust onto the >>> brether filter. Any other ideas? >> >> If there was not a breather, and if you pressurized slightly, then >> any leakage would be outwards, keeping dust from entering > > However, the Micropolis 1200 certainly has a breather filter. The air > holes for it are clearly visible on the top of the HDA. > > The schrader vavle is on the underside, alongside the motor PCB, brake > solenoid, etc. I haev yet to find a convincing reason for it being fitted > at all. Any suggestions? Hmm, I think it might be to keep the HDA artificially pressurised at high altitude so that the heads still fly. Either [partially] block the breather, or just push enough air into it to counter the losses. I was initially surprised that every[1] drive has the valve if that's the case (rather than just a plug for the vast majority which will never need it), but perhaps the valves were so cheap that it makes more sense just to fit them, rather than make a separate part and still have to supply the valve to customers wanting to use the HDA at high altitude. [1] although pressurising at the factory to check for seal leaks might be a useful exercise (but in absence of any other need for valves there could just as easily be a valve on the test rig rather than every HDA) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 08:38:27 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:38:27 -0500 Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <507EB4D3.5060603@gmail.com> On 10/16/2012 08:05 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > From: Fred Jan Kraan > > >> you put in a disk, you get a cursor, but that`s it. Puter won`t give >> disk back. Do I have to take it apart? > > The SD-321 drives have a lock mechanism that should release the disk > when the button is in the 'out' position. But it doesn't as the old > grease keeps the lock in place. I have observed this with both the QX10 > and the TF-20 which both use the 1/3 height SD-321 disk drives. So far I > managed to get my disks back by prying the lock upwards (or was it > downwards?) with my fingers (not very pleasant work). Everytime I plan > to fix the drive by replacing the gunked grease, but so far it didn't > happen. > > Greetings& success, > > Fred Jan > > C: for arguments sake (and in the event the stuck disk is expendable), > couldn't you remove the drive and soak it w/isopropyl alcohol or > something? To wash away the old grease? If you're at the point of taking the drives out, you can trip the drive release mechanism "internally" with a finger to get the disk to release. Well, unless you have incredibly weedy fingers, I suppose :-) Then dismantle the eject mech, clean, re-grease and reassemble. (I think Tony's cautioned in the past against dismantling the head assembly / positioner, which is certainly sound advice, but thankfully there's no need to do that just to get at the eject assembly). cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 08:48:20 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:48:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> On 10/16/2012 02:00 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > A bigger problem is my car has 167000 miles on it Another 19,000 for one light-second and 71,900 until you've reached the moon, then. I've got around 250,000 on the car, 175,000 on the van, and no idea about the truck as that only shows 5 digits. Nobody starts worrying about mileage around here until a vehicle gets to 300k. > and i camt afford the fuel Now that is more of a problem! Attach a sail to the roof and hope for a favourable wind... :-) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 09:10:24 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:10:24 +0100 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: On 17 October 2012 13:05, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:17, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 16 October 2012 23:42, John Monahan wrote: >>> >>> This is an ongoing project. It utilizes the 16 bit mode of the 80386 to >>> address the 16MG of RAM the S-100 bus is capable of addressing. >> >> Just out of curiosity: >> >> Wouldn't an 80386SX have avoided this restriction and been much easier? > > To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- > mount packages. The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 > group) have done a pretty good job of making sure all > their boards can be assembled with only through-hole > parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers > with cheap irons. I must admit, I hadn't considered this, but on consideration, I'm pretty sure I saw socketed ones - if only because for a while, replacing a 386SX with a 486SLC was a popular upgrade option. WikiP seems to bear me out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80386SX#The_i386SX_variant "The 386SX was packaged in a surface-mount QFP, and sometimes offered in a socket to allow for an upgrade." Yes, they were Quad Flat Package things, but QFPs came in a socketed form sometimes - I fitted a few of them myself, even though I was/am primarily a software guy. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 10:17:46 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:17:46 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 17 October 2012 13:05, David Riley wrote: >> To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- >> mount packages. The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 >> group) have done a pretty good job of making sure all >> their boards can be assembled with only through-hole >> parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers >> with cheap irons. > > I must admit, I hadn't considered this, but on consideration, I'm > pretty sure I saw socketed ones - if only because for a while, > replacing a 386SX with a 486SLC was a popular upgrade option. > > WikiP seems to bear me out: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80386SX#The_i386SX_variant > > "The 386SX was packaged in a surface-mount QFP, and sometimes offered > in a socket to allow for an upgrade." > > Yes, they were Quad Flat Package things, but QFPs came in a socketed > form sometimes - I fitted a few of them myself, even though I was/am > primarily a software guy. Are you perhaps talking about PLCCs? Square packages like a QFP, but with J-leads that can be inserted into and removed from a socket somewhat more easily? Those were certainly popular for a number of devices, though I can't recall ever having seen a PLCC 386SX. I can't find any examples on eBay of a non-QFP one, either. Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious about what form they'd take. Is it possible that there was an upgrade PGA socket present on 386SX motherboards alongside the surface-mounted chip? I sure see quite a few examples of what looks like that (possibly a socket for a 387SX instead). It strikes me that your original question may actually have been about the 16 MB limit, in which case it's a limit of the S-100 bus and not the 386 in question. Their workaround to provide more RAM is necessary for the extra eight address bits. The 386SX also has a 24-bit address bus, so if you wanted the full 4GB address range, you'd be out of luck anyway. - Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 17 10:22:37 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:22:37 -0700 Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507ECD3D.5020604@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/12 3:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/phaseOneSystems/oasis/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 17 10:37:19 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:37:19 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507ED0AF.4070807@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/12 8:17 AM, David Riley wrote: > I'm just curious about what > form they'd take. > PGA PCB with a QFP soldered to the top. Similar to the way BGA G3s were used by Apple on Gossamer and Artemis with socketed CPUs. From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 17 10:37:48 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507ED0CC.4020806@charter.net> Looking at the disk image located at http://www.cpm80.com/download/oasis56.td0 Some possible commands look like: CREATE DEBUG LOGOFF PEEK SCRIPT RENAME SECTOR LOGON OWNERCHG PATCH SEEK SET FORCE RECEIVE STOP KILL SHOW SYSGEN ERASE MSG TEXTEDIT ASSIGN BACKUP CRT MAILBOX SHARE SPOOLER ARCHIVE EDIT ERRMSG START ACCOUNT LINK MEMTEST REPAIR LIST RUN RUN2 ATTACH CHANGE DUMPDISK INTELHEX LOAD INITDISK STATE TERMINAL PASSWORD RECOVER FILELIST <<<<< Maybe this is what you want? FILT8080 MACRO RESTORE And, of course, the ubiquitous HELP On 10/17/2012 5:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to play with the OASIS operating system for the Altos 5-15 > (downloaded from Dave's site). After logging in I get the '>' prompt. > Apparently, they use some kind of stack within their CLI as I can use it > as an RPN calculator (just like FORTH in OpenBoot environments). The > usual candidates like DIR, CAT etc. aren't recognized, LIST gives 'File > name missing', LIST * gives 'File extenstion missing', and LIST *.* > gives, well, nothing. > So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? > > Christian > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 10:38:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:38:20 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> Message-ID: <507ED0EC.3060007@neurotica.com> On 10/17/2012 08:05 AM, David Riley wrote: >>> This is an ongoing project. It utilizes the 16 bit mode of the 80386 to >>> address the 16MG of RAM the S-100 bus is capable of addressing. >> >> Just out of curiosity: >> >> Wouldn't an 80386SX have avoided this restriction and been much easier? > > To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- > mount packages. The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 > group) have done a pretty good job of making sure all > their boards can be assembled with only through-hole > parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers > with cheap irons. The 80386SX also came in a PLCC package, which can either be soldered directly, or placed into a socket. PLCC sockets are either surface-mount or through-hole. (I know you know this, this is for the benefit of the less electronics-inclined among us) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 10:47:52 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 12:47:52 -0300 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <507ED0AF.4070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <043D954724AA49FEA467AAB3651320FE@tababook> I'd write the same. Also, the AMD 386DX40 (there were no intel DX40, only DX33) chips were presented in the same form at first (so you could buy the motherboard without the [expensive] microprocessor and put a cheaper AMD one), later soldered on the mainboard. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 12:37 PM Subject: Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board > On 10/17/12 8:17 AM, David Riley wrote: >> I'm just curious about what >> form they'd take. >> > > PGA PCB with a QFP soldered to the top. > Similar to the way BGA G3s were used by Apple > on Gossamer and Artemis with socketed CPUs. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 10:55:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:55:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> On 10/17/2012 09:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> A bigger problem is my car has 167000 miles on it > > Another 19,000 for one light-second and 71,900 until you've reached the > moon, then. > > I've got around 250,000 on the car, 175,000 on the van, and no idea > about the truck as that only shows 5 digits. Nobody starts worrying > about mileage around here until a vehicle gets to 300k. You don't have many American cars over there, I guess. :-/ People over here are well-trained to thinkt hat 80K is "high mileage", and you know what happens then..."if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old". Next, a happy salesman! -Dave (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 17 10:59:13 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:59:13 -0500 Subject: Speaking of unusual 8080/Z80 Operating systems: MARC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507ED5D1.7010801@charter.net> Speaking of interesting 8080/z80 operating systems, anyone out there on the list besides me (and the two people I mention below) ever play with Ed Ziemba's MARC operating system (very Unix like, for the 8080 - but never published, because Ed Ziemba passed away in an unfortunate snorkeling accident) At least two other people had some access do it, those being Leor Zolman (BDS C, in which MARC was written - http://www.bdsoft.com/about.html) and one Lauren Weinstein, DBA Vortex Technology -- who might be (it seems very likely) this guy: http://lauren.vortex.com/. I still have some copies (the latest being the CP/M hosted/"parasitic" boot version B.9 and root file system B.3), and some paper documentation. I am sending Lauren a note and see what he might know about MARC's status, Intellectual Property wise or if he knows of any way it might be released without having to trespass on the copyright, which presumably would exist for 70 years after Ed Ziemba's passing. Jay Jaeger The Computer Collection On 10/17/2012 5:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to play with the OASIS operating system for the Altos 5-15 > (downloaded from Dave's site). After logging in I get the '>' prompt. > Apparently, they use some kind of stack within their CLI as I can use it > as an RPN calculator (just like FORTH in OpenBoot environments). The > usual candidates like DIR, CAT etc. aren't recognized, LIST gives 'File > name missing', LIST * gives 'File extenstion missing', and LIST *.* > gives, well, nothing. > So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? > > Christian > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 17 11:09:39 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:09:39 +0200 Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oasis is the predeccesor of THEOS. In Bitsavers I can't locate the OASIS System Reference Manual or the EXEC Reference Manual. This is what you need, I think. Regards Sergio 2012/10/17 Christian Corti : > > I'd like to play with the OASIS operating system for the Altos 5-15 > [...] > So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? > > Christian From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 17 11:18:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:18:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 17 October 2012 13:05, David Riley wrote: >> >>> To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- mount packages. >>> The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 group) have done a pretty good >>> job of making sure all their boards can be assembled with only >>> through-hole parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers >>> with cheap irons. Despite how they look, QFPs are among some of the easiest surface mount parts to fit. A 25W pencil iron with a small tip (~2mm) and some liquid RMA flux will do the job. I've used irons with tips as large as 4mm for this task when in a bind. Granted, I've been soldering for decades, but still...SMT isn't /that/ hard... IIRC, the i386DX is currently still available from Intel in a QFP package and is marketed for embedded applications. >> Yes, they were Quad Flat Package things, but QFPs came in a socketed >> form sometimes - I fitted a few of them myself, even though I was/am >> primarily a software guy. It was also extremely common to see AMD 386DX QFP chips fitted onto a PGA carrier board that could be plugged into a standard i386DX socket. I own a bunch of these (and motherboards for them) which I plan to use for a future multi-processor project. [That is, IF I can ever get my hands on enough 40MHz 387DX math co-processors -- one guy on eBay has had them for more than 10 years but his per unit price makes my project cost prohibitive since I need at least a dozen of them.] > Is it possible that there was an upgrade PGA socket present on 386SX > motherboards alongside the surface-mounted chip? I sure see quite a few > examples of what looks like that (possibly a socket for a 387SX > instead). Such boards were very uncommon but they did exist. Just as there were some "universal" motherboards with PGA sockets for both an i386DX /and/ an i486DX, there were some motherboards with an on-board i386SX plus a PGA socket for a i386DX (and a second PGA socket for an i387DX). There were even boards with 4 PGA sockets, i386DX, i387DX, i486DX/SX, i487SX (I own some examples of these boards). These "universal" motherboards were not very common and were typically about 1-1/2x to 2x or more the price of a normal motherboard. Many people who had these boards installed in their white-box clone PCs never even took advantage of the extra upgradability options. The standard socket for an i387SX was a PLCC socket. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 11:26:19 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:26:19 +0200 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU board Message-ID: <507EDC2B.8000602@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have this, willing to sell or --- more ideally, for me --- willing to trade a SGI IP59 quad-processor CPU/node- board? (P/N: 030-1989-003) I have several (non-SGI) systems of interest, Alphas (PWS 500au's and DS10s), but also Sun SPARCs (e.g. Ultra 10) and also at least one HP Integrity rx2620 "Montecito" (largely maxed out, with 24 Gbytes RAM) to trade. All of the above are max'ed out, in terms of 'specs' & configurations, plus there are many (PCI, PCI-X, AGP, etc.) options available. I also have an IP53 dual-processor CPU/node-board, as a possible 'replacement' (in case an IP59 board would have to be removed from a working system) and may even have a quad-processor one (i.e. the one I currently have installed). I'd also like to emphasize, to avoid confusion, that these are things I have to offer. Not so much things I'd like (or deem sensible) to trade 1:1. The reason I'm looking for this part, as well as other parts, is because I'm trying to get as much out of my system as possible, as I'm working on my portfolio as a graphic designer. Either way, please don't hesitate to contact me. I'm open to ideas and offers. Thanks in advance. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 11:30:08 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:30:08 +0200 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS cables Message-ID: <507EDD10.5070100@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have a complete set of SGI DMediaPro DM2/DM3 LVDS cables, willing to trade/sell? (See my other WTT/WTB thread, for the IP59 board, for possible items of interest to trade.) I'm specifically looking for both a white (P/N: 018-0985-001) and black (P/N: 018-0946-001) LVDS cable, to connect a DM3 to a VBOB. Thanks in advance. - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 11:34:34 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:34:34 +0200 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Indigo=B2_IMPACT_=284_Mbyte=29?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_TRAM_board?= Message-ID: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> Does anyone have one of these TRAM (Texture Memory, 4 Mbytes ideally, P/N: 030-0676-003) boards, for an SGI Indigo? IMPACT (e.g. for HighIMPACT) graphics card to trade/sell? (See my previous threads for possible items to trade.) Thanks in advance. - MG From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 17 11:39:06 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:39:06 +0200 Subject: Speaking of unusual 8080/Z80 Operating systems: MARC In-Reply-To: <507ED5D1.7010801@charter.net> References: <507ED5D1.7010801@charter.net> Message-ID: Good luck with this interesting find. SPc. 2012/10/17 Jay Jaeger : > Speaking of interesting 8080/z80 operating systems, anyone out there on the > list besides me (and the two people I mention below) ever play with Ed > Ziemba's MARC operating system (very Unix like, for the 8080 - but never > published, because Ed Ziemba passed away in an unfortunate snorkeling > accident) > > I still have some copies (the latest being the CP/M hosted/"parasitic" boot > version B.9 and root file system B.3), and some paper documentation. > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 17 12:49:42 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time Message-ID: My AN/FSQ-7 computer tribute site received a bit of publicity in Wired Magazine: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/10/movie-computers/ My web server is heating up. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 13:24:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:24:44 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: >> On Oct 17, 2012, at 10:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 17 October 2012 13:05, David Riley wrote: >>>> To my recollection, the 386SX only came in surface- mount packages. The N8VEM folks (including the S-100 group) have done a pretty good job of making sure all their boards can be assembled with only through-hole parts, which makes it a lot easier for novice solderers with cheap irons. > > Despite how they look, QFPs are among some of the easiest surface mount parts to fit. A 25W pencil iron with a small tip (~2mm) and some liquid RMA flux will do the job. I've used irons with tips as large as 4mm for this task when in a bind. Granted, I've been soldering for decades, but still...SMT isn't /that/ hard... I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never really kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering fine-pitch parts. My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a birthday present recently, though (I picked a good one!), so I may be doing a bit more in the not-too-distant future (more so if my QBUS board ever gets off the ground, because I don't really feel like paying for assembly). > It was also extremely common to see AMD 386DX QFP chips fitted onto a PGA carrier board that could be plugged into a standard i386DX socket. I own a bunch of these (and motherboards for them) which I plan to use for a future multi-processor project. [That is, IF I can ever get my hands on enough 40MHz 387DX math co-processors -- one guy on eBay has had them for more than 10 years but his per unit price makes my project cost prohibitive since I need at least a dozen of them.] I had never seen them, but then I realized that I didn't start building machines until the 486 era. SMT-on-a-carrier is certainly a common paradigm; after all, it's basically what flip-chip PGAs are on a different scale. - Dave From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Oct 17 13:43:42 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:43:42 -0700 Subject: WTT/WTB: SGI =?UTF-8?B?SW5kaWdvwrI=?= IMPACT (4 Mbyte) TRAM board In-Reply-To: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> References: <507EDE1A.7030407@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20121017114342.07f88376@asrock.bcwi.net> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:34:34 +0200 MG wrote: > Does anyone have one of these TRAM (Texture Memory, 4 Mbytes > ideally, P/N: 030-0676-003) boards, for an SGI Indigo? IMPACT > (e.g. for HighIMPACT) graphics card to trade/sell? (See my > previous threads for possible items to trade.) > > Thanks in advance. You might want to try Ian at "SGI Depot". I've known him for years and he's an honest and knowledgeable SGI fan. http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/ Cheers, Lyle -- Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 17 14:37:06 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:37:06 +0200 Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm shocked. A reference will go to my Sci-Fi blog. About the movies cited... well, the comment about Dr.Strangelove and the 7094 under the arm of Peter Sellers is interesting knowing the care for the details in his productions of Stanley Kubrick. About the rest... The reference to Jay and Silent Bob movie is funny, but the comment about the Towering Inferno is the BEST. No doubt. SPc. 2012/10/17 Mike Loewen : > > My AN/FSQ-7 computer tribute site received a bit of publicity in Wired > Magazine: > > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/10/movie-computers/ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 17 14:42:10 2012 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:42:10 -0500 Subject: Speaking of unusual 8080/Z80 Operating systems: MARC In-Reply-To: References: <507ED5D1.7010801@charter.net> Message-ID: <507F0A12.4010409@charter.net> Thanks. I did correspond with Lauren Weinstein, and he suggested it should not be made public. There were issues after Ed Ziemba's passing that would make it unlikely we could get it released. On 10/17/2012 11:39 AM, SPC wrote: > Good luck with this interesting find. > > SPc. > > 2012/10/17 Jay Jaeger : >> Speaking of interesting 8080/z80 operating systems, anyone out there on the >> list besides me (and the two people I mention below) ever play with Ed >> Ziemba's MARC operating system (very Unix like, for the 8080 - but never >> published, because Ed Ziemba passed away in an unfortunate snorkeling >> accident) >> >> I still have some copies (the latest being the CP/M hosted/"parasitic" boot >> version B.9 and root file system B.3), and some paper documentation. >> > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 17 14:57:30 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:57:30 -0600 Subject: HP calculator R-> In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507F0DAA.7040906@brouhaha.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Hey HP gurus, trying to read printouts from HP 67 programs and run them on my new HP35s > > Does this R-> in the printout mean an enter keypress? > Rectangular to polar conversion, which is a function HP left out of the 35s. The idiots assumed that you would only want to do that with complex numbers, not with reals. From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 17 15:03:45 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:03:45 +0200 Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507F0F21.5070806@xs4all.nl> On 17-10-2012 19:49, Mike Loewen wrote: > > My AN/FSQ-7 computer tribute site received a bit of publicity in Wired > Magazine: > > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/10/movie-computers/ Many of these are actually featured on the great site: "Starring the Computer" . - MG From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 17 15:12:39 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: <507F0F21.5070806@xs4all.nl> References: <507F0F21.5070806@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, MG wrote: > On 17-10-2012 19:49, Mike Loewen wrote: >> >> My AN/FSQ-7 computer tribute site received a bit of publicity in Wired >> Magazine: >> >> http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/10/movie-computers/ > > Many of these are actually featured on the great site: "Starring > the Computer" . James Carter and his "Starring the Computer" site are also mentioned in the article. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 16:18:50 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:18:50 +0100 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 17 October 2012 16:17, David Riley wrote: > > Are you perhaps talking about PLCCs? Square packages like a QFP, > but with J-leads that can be inserted into and removed from a > socket somewhat more easily? I honestly don't know. As I said, I am primarily a software guy, it's just that in most of my support roles I've had to do a bit of hardware stuff as well. I am happy to be the sort of board-swapper that Tony Duell holds in contempt; I was usually being paid to achieve cost-effective results ASAP, not to do a work of art. So I was just going by what Wikipedia said, TBH! > Is it possible that there was an upgrade PGA socket present on > 386SX motherboards alongside the surface-mounted chip? I sure > see quite a few examples of what looks like that (possibly a > socket for a 387SX instead). I've certainly seen and used sockets for a 387SX and they were much like the 386SX shown on the WikiP link I gave, but with the pins curled under rather than splayed out like in that soldered-in example. OTOH I remember people doing things like fitting 486SLC chips onto the Acorn RISC PC's PC 2nd processor card. :?) > It strikes me that your original question may actually have been > about the 16 MB limit, Well that was in part my point. I wouldn't know an S100 card if you attempted to insert one into me, but when I read about... > in which case it's a limit of the S-100 > bus and not the 386 in question. ... just that, the 16MB limit, then I thought "why not use the smaller cheaper simpler version of the 386 that only *supports* 16MB and has half as many legs to solder, half the bus width and so on." It seemed an obvious question to me; if one is building an S100 computer, and that means no more than 16MB, then use the easier chip that only supports 16MB. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 17:21:02 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 17:21:02 -0500 Subject: Discrete Transistor Laptop (Was: unibus to modern disk interface?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <507F2F4E.2040508@gmail.com> On 10/15/2012 05:11 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > TCP/IP Networking (not to mention wireless) not included. Why not? I think that Magic-1 is entirely LS-TTL and has a TCP/IP stack. Whether anyone would *want* TCP/IP if the only machines around were quite resource-starved, I don't know; there are probably much better ways of shunting data around in such an environment (particularly on a LAN). > Of course, without the tech that came from LSI, we wouldn't have > high-resolution LCD displays, either. Nothing like lugging a CRT > around. The display would probably be a CRT or some kind of > character-oriented plasma panel (Burroughs Self-Scan?) -- both big power > hogs. Hmm, possibly not high-res displays with high-refresh, but I bet someone would have developed a high-res display which was good for visualizing data that wasn't changing on a regular basis. I still use a big ol' CRT for my primary PC and don't consider it a power hog; sure it consumes a lot more than a LCD, but it's not like I have astronomical power bills because of it or need some kind of dedicated AC line to run it :-) Heck, six months of the year we normally have the heating on anyway, so any heat losses are still doing useful work... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 16:18:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:18:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 16, 12 08:39:41 pm Message-ID: > > for arguments sake (and in the event the stuck disk is expendable), > > couldn't you remove the drive and soak it w/isopropyl alcohol or > > something? To wash away the old grease? > > That might begin to loosen the old grease but won't remove it and might > well damage any electromechanical parts such as motors. Once the IPA > evaporates, the grease will re-solidify anyway since the original oils in > the grease have dried up. Indeed. I ngernal, soaking a fully-assembled unit, or randomly squirting solvents (or worse lubricants, and even worse Wanton Destruction 40) into mechanisms is a bad idea. If possible (nd in this case it is). take it apart, then use solvents to soften the old grease _and wipe it off. Repeat until the parts are claen. Then relubricate nd reassamble. > > Better still, disassemble the drive and soak the _mechanical_ bits in In this case it all comes apart easily, you can separate the various levers The idifivdual parts can be soaked in either white spriit or propan-2-ol to sofent the grease, adn then wiped Don't forget to celan out the pivot holes, this is where problems often staer. I have foudn the notes I made when I stripepd and rebuilt oen of thse drives. Unfortuantely my sequence invovled removign the linear positioner early on, if you do that, you lose the radial alignment and have ot use an alignment disk to re-set it. This is no problem if you have such a disk, but it may put you off. What I don't know is if you can dispmantle the disk guides and levers with the positioner still on the chassis. If you can, then there's no problem. If not, then I guess you have ot do the alignment. Althought I describe how to do it, do not strip the spindle motor or lienar positioenr units unless you have to. They are not easy to reassble correctly. Anywy, here are my notes SD320, SD321 drive dismantling ------------------------------- Remove the logic board : Undo the 4 screws fixing the logic board. The rear left is a long machine screw, rear right a short machine screw, centre right and front centre are (short) self-tapping screws. Lift the logic board to disconnect the 3 pin connector at front left (index/write protect sensors), 10 pin (positioner) and 3 pin (spindle motor) connectors at rear. Turn logic board over towards right side of the drive. Free the head cables from the clamps on the logic PCB, unplug the head connector. Set the logic board aside. On SD320 (with head load solenoid), dismantle the head load mechanism : Remove the screw and washer on top of the head load solenoid. Loosen the screw fro the rear bearing of the head load flap (this screw is on the left side of the drive chassis) until the bearing can be turned away from the pivot pin. Free the hard load flap from its front bearing, remove it, note how the compression spring fits over a peg on the base of the linear positioner. Remove the conical spring from the top of the head load solenoid, remove the solenoid armature. Remove the screw and bearing (loosened earlier). Remove the screw holding the head load solenoid to the chassis, lift out the solenoid and 'stick' it to the linear positioner magnet. When reassembling this section, note that the screw on top of the solenoid should not be fully tightened. Adjust it so that the heads load correctly when the drive is tested on an exerciser. Remove the linear positioner (voice coil assembly) : Undo the 2 screws + springs and the single countersunk screw fixing the linear positioner to the main chassis. Free the head cables from the clips on the right-hand disk guide. Place a piece of paper between the heads, lift the positioner from the rear and slide it out Remove the disk clamp : Unhook and remove the tension spring for the frontpanel button linkage. Mark the position of the index sensor on the disk clamp bridge to aid reassembly. Remove the 3 screws holding the bridge in place, lift it up and turn it over towards the left side of the drive (take care not to damage the index phototransistor wiring. Remove the 3 spacers from the slots in the disk guides. Free the index phototransistor wiring from the hooks on the bridge, remove the screw holding the phototransistor mount in place and remove the bridge completely. Remove the spindle motor and spindle : Remove the 2 screws holding the spindle motor in place. Remove the motor, slipping the belt off the pulley. Remove the belt from the idler and spindle. Remove the idler (one central screw, washer on top of bearing). Remove the central screw from the spindle hub, lift off the spindle hub and remove the bearings (crinkle washer under top bearing). If possible remove the washer from the fixed spindle in the chassis Remove the front panel : Remove the 2 screws and slide the panel out, taking care not to damage the index LED wiring. Remove the disk guides : Remove the right hand disk guide (2 screws). Remove the index LED mounting (1 screw), then remove the screw holding the left hand disk guide. Remove the guide. Undo the screw holding the sensor PCB to the guide and remove it. Dismantle the interlock lever : Unhook the tension spring from the eject linkage. Remove the E-circlip from one end of the interlock lever pivot, slide out the pivot rod and remove the lever. Recover the compression spring. --------------------------------------------------- Dismantling the spindle motor ----------------------------- Do NOT dismantle the spindle motor unless absolutely necessary. Most electronic repairs can be performed without dismantling the mechanical section. However, should it be necessary to dismantle it, proceed as follows. Clean off the silicone rubber over the FG (frequency generator) coil wires. Try to avoid damaging the wires. Desolder them from the PCB pads. Bend up the 4 tabs on the bottom of the motor and pull off the housing complete with the FG coil. Support the motor on a bench vice with the pulley between the jaws. Using a hammer and pin punch, tap the spindle downwards until it is free from the rotor. Remove the rotor from the top of the motor. Remove the spindle, washer, and lower bearing. Push out the upper bearing. If the FG wires were damaged when the cover was removed, carefully scrape away the tops of the 3 heat stakes retaining the coil former inside the housing. Pull out the former (and lower pole piece), and either unwind one turn to give a longer end of wire for reassembly, or re-wind the coil. Put the former back in place, if you have been careful in removing it, it will snap in place without further fixing. Motor Protection Circuit : The circuit round Q33 removes the drive from the motor if the control voltage from IC10 rises too high (either because the motor is overloaded, or because the FG signal is missing). If this triggers too easily (the motor stops after a few seconds), decrease R76 to 56k --------------------------------------------------- Dismantling the positioner -------------------------- On an SD-320, desolder the head load solenoid leads from the positioner connector PCB and set the solenoid aside Undo the PCB retaining screw and allow the PCB to move away from the rear of the positioner. Undo the screw holding the graticule to the carriage. Remove the clamp plate under the screw, then with the heads fully 'out', free the graticule from the carriage and slide it out of the optical block. Straighten the end 2 tabs on the underside of the unit (these retain the cover on the velocity transducer). Remove the cover. Remove the rear section of the voice coil core, which is retained by a single screw under the rear of the positioner. Remove the 2 screws holding the voice coil and velocity transducer coil to the carriage. With the heads 'out', remove the pole piece from the middle of the velocity transducer coil (this is retained by magnetism only). Retract the heads, then lift the coils off the carriage. Leave them hanging on the flexible PCB Remove the clamps from the rear end of each head rail (1 screw each). Slide out the front clamp, then lift out the head carriage and remove the rails --------------------------------------------------- Dismantling the disk-inserted levers ------------------------------------ (These are the linkages on the left-hand disk guide.) Unhook the torsion spring and slide out the eject interlock flap. Remove the spring Unhook the torsion spring on the latch lever (top rear of the guide). Remove the E-circlip, the torsion spring and the latch lever Unhook the torsion spring on the disk-present lever (under the front of the guide. Remove the E-circlip, the torsion spring and the disk-present lever. Remove the E-circlips on the mounting posts for the frontpanel button slide. Remove the 2 washers, lift off the slide and recover the following parts : 2 spacers and 2 washers from the mounting posts ; 2 rollers from the slide ; 1 reaction plate from the guide --------------------------------------------------- Dismantling the disk clamp assembly ----------------------------------- Pull the disk clamp lever away from the bridge by hand until the disk clamp cone is free of the spindle. Slide the clamp cone out of the end of the lever. Unhook the torsion spring. Remove the E-circlip from the end of the pivot spindle, slide out the spindle and remove the torsion spring. Separate the clamp lever from the bridge. Unclip the 2 halves of the disk clamp cone and remove the compression spring. Press out the bearing. Remove the circlip and slide the bush out of the centre of the bearing. --------------------------------------------------- Bearings -------- Clamp Bearing ID : 4.6mm OD : 9.5mm Thickness 3.17mm (1/8") Motor Bearings and Belt Idler ID : 3mm OD : 8mm Thickness : 4mm Spindle Bearings ID : 4.75mm OD : 9.5mm Flange OD : 10.8mm Total Thickness : 3.15mm Flange Thickness : 0.75mm --------------------------------------------------- SD320 links : SS1 (6 position DIP switch) 1 : Drive select 0 2 : Drive select 1 3 : Drive select 2 4 : Drive select 3 5 : Head load from pin 4 of interface connector * 6 : Head load from drive select SS2 : HS : Load controlled by head-load signal * MS : load controlled by motor enable SS3 : DS : In-use LED controlled by drive select HL : In-use LED controlled by head load drive * --------------------------------------------------- Testpoints : 1 : Ground 2 ) Differential outputs of read amplifier 3 ) 4 ) Differential inputs to comparator 5 ) 6 Index sensor 7 Index pulse 8 Drive Select/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 16:25:26 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 22:25:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP calculator R-> In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Oct 16, 12 10:38:29 pm Message-ID: > > > Hey HP gurus, trying to read printouts from HP 67 programs and run them on = > my new HP35s Techncilaly, it's impossible to have an HP67 _printout_. Either it' was listed and recorder by hadn, or it was pritned on an HP97. AS well asn the function name, there should be a 'keycode'. Thsi si s sequence of 2 digit numbers. IIRC, for the HP67, it's the row and column of the key. For an HP97, it's simialr, excemt that keys on the left hand keypad are given -ve numebrs. In both cases, the digits anre an exception, they're given the codes 00-09 It would be worth you getting the user manual for the 67 or 97, which will explain this. I think its on the MoHPC DVD set. > > Does this R-> in the printout mean an enter keypress? My first guess is that this is R->PO -- Rectangular to Polar coordinate conversion. What is the keycode? > > In general is there an interpretation of HP 65 program printouts to the ass= > ociated keys? Do you mean HP65 here? There is no printing version of that machine, so no way to have a true pritout. Again, the keycodes are row/column values for the keys o nthe machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 17:11:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:11:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <507EB4D3.5060603@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 17, 12 08:38:27 am Message-ID: > > Then dismantle the eject mech, clean, re-grease and reassemble. (I think > Tony's cautioned in the past against dismantling the head assembly / > positioner, which is certainly sound advice, but thankfully there's no need > to do that just to get at the eject assembly). There are 2 issues. The positioner comnes off as a module very easily. But if you do that, you wil lahve to set the radial alignemt when you put it back -- said alignement is set by moving the positioner. it's easy to do if you have na alignment disk. Much worse is taking the posiiioner module apart. There's rarely a reason to do this, but if you do, you wil lhave fund settign it all up again. Don't ask how I found out. But you certainly don't need to strip the positioner to repair the eject linkages. Yu probably don't need to remove it either. -tony From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Oct 17 17:23:54 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:23:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCS CADMUS 9700 System power-up difficulties Message-ID: <1350512634.81961.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello list, ? some years ago, I got a CADMUS 9700 computer, a rather heavy system of the 80's from a german manufacturer called PCS. The system is built around the DEC QBUS, but uses a Motorolla 68000 type CPU. Finally, I found some time to have a look at it. Unfortunately, I didn't went far with my exploration. After having taken an hour to find out how to open this thing (plastic covers without screws are NOT fun, when they seem stuck), I cleaned it as it was horribly dusty und rusty. It must have spent some time in an humid environment. Deconnecting the drives and?applying power to?the switching supply turned on?the blinkening?kight of the ?green "RUN" button, but pressing it did not do anything. Afterwards, I deconnected the supply, checked that power connectors within the chassis were correctly seated and reconnected the power plug to the power-supply. Now, the green light did not blink anymore. In fact, since then, nothing ever happended again. The system just seems dead. I guess that the supply has a problem. It's difficult to check it, though, without schematics. It has a small ribbon cable which connects to a small PCB with several ICs on which can be found the "RUN"-button. I have no idea, which signals that supply needs in order to enter a state at which it should be on. The small PCB with the buttons and ICs could also be defective. ?There is also a key-switch, but I played with both positions and it does not influence anything on my system. The systems seem rare. At least, I could find only little information on the net and not documentation at all.Has anybody a clue on how to power-up this thing?Are there other owners of PCS systems, who can tell me who the system behaves upon applying power to the PSU and if it is sufficient to press the RUN-button to turn it on? ? Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 17:44:06 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 17:44:06 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: my dads 87 accord has million on it... http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/2815641756/lightbox/ On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/17/2012 09:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> A bigger problem is my car has 167000 miles on it > > > > Another 19,000 for one light-second and 71,900 until you've reached the > > moon, then. > > > > I've got around 250,000 on the car, 175,000 on the van, and no idea > > about the truck as that only shows 5 digits. Nobody starts worrying > > about mileage around here until a vehicle gets to 300k. > > You don't have many American cars over there, I guess. :-/ People > over here are well-trained to thinkt hat 80K is "high mileage", and you > know what happens then..."if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, > it's old". Next, a happy salesman! > > -Dave > (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 17 18:55:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:55:39 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> On 10/17/2012 11:24 AM, David Riley wrote: > I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never > really kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering > fine-pitch parts. My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a > birthday present recently, though (I picked a good one!), so > I may be doing a bit more in the not-too-distant future (more > so if my QBUS board ever gets off the ground, because I don't > really feel like paying for assembly). Speaking for myself only, soldering TQFP isn't terribly difficult--I could almost solder an 0.8 mm lead pitch QFP without my glasses. 0.5 mm for me requires a binocular loupe and careful checking with an inspection microscope. But I've done a lot of it and had zero casualties, much to my surprise. What I find more of a problem are SMT transistors and other tiny multi-lead components. It takes a fairly steady hand to get them just right. For two-leaded components, you can just let the component find its own place floating on two molten solder pads. Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. I started with a 100W American Beauty iron wiring point-to-point (lesson to be learned: Look before you grab). PCB was a learning experience and SMT yet another one. I still don't know the right way to handle BGA packages doing manual assembly, so I steer clear of those. FWIW, I've got a motherboard here (386 or 486--I don't remember) where a QFP CPU is mounted on a carrier that plugs into a PGA socket. The thing was purchased in that configuration. --Chuck From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Oct 17 19:12:32 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:12:32 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: Only way I know of to handle BGA is doing solder reflow. This can be done with solder paste and a hotplate, Sparkfun's website has info. The only hitch is that you can only check if the joint is good by powering it up. Otherwise you need access to an x-ray machine. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-17, at 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/17/2012 11:24 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never >> really kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering >> fine-pitch parts. My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a >> birthday present recently, though (I picked a good one!), so >> I may be doing a bit more in the not-too-distant future (more >> so if my QBUS board ever gets off the ground, because I don't >> really feel like paying for assembly). > > Speaking for myself only, soldering TQFP isn't terribly difficult--I could almost solder an 0.8 mm lead pitch QFP without my glasses. 0.5 mm for me requires a binocular loupe and careful checking with an inspection microscope. But I've done a lot of it and had zero casualties, much to my surprise. > > What I find more of a problem are SMT transistors and other tiny multi-lead components. It takes a fairly steady hand to get them just right. For two-leaded components, you can just let the component find its own place floating on two molten solder pads. > > Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. I started with a 100W American Beauty iron wiring point-to-point (lesson to be learned: Look before you grab). PCB was a learning experience and SMT yet another one. I still don't know the right way to handle BGA packages doing manual assembly, so I steer clear of those. > > FWIW, I've got a motherboard here (386 or 486--I don't remember) where a QFP CPU is mounted on a carrier that plugs into a PGA socket. The thing was purchased in that configuration. > > --Chuck > > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 17 19:20:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 17:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Only way I know of to handle BGA is doing solder reflow. This can be > done with solder paste and a hotplate, Sparkfun's website has info. The > only hitch is that you can only check if the joint is good by powering > it up. Otherwise you need access to an x-ray machine. I've often wondered if it's practical to build a tabletop x-ray machine for this purpose. Any ideas how much one would cost? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 19:29:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:29:04 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <507F4D50.50305@neurotica.com> On 10/17/2012 08:20 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> Only way I know of to handle BGA is doing solder reflow. This can be >> done with solder paste and a hotplate, Sparkfun's website has info. >> The only hitch is that you can only check if the joint is good by >> powering it up. Otherwise you need access to an x-ray machine. > > I've often wondered if it's practical to build a tabletop x-ray machine > for this purpose. Any ideas how much one would cost? Not much point...I have a nearly-new commercial one, real-time fluoroscope, not film, and I paid $100.00 for it. Keep an eye on the surplus market. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 19:36:13 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:36:13 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3F82BCE5-F5B5-4647-9959-32396FF9DC07@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/17/2012 11:24 AM, David Riley wrote: > >> I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never >> really kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering >> fine-pitch parts. My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a >> birthday present recently, though (I picked a good one!), so >> I may be doing a bit more in the not-too-distant future (more >> so if my QBUS board ever gets off the ground, because I don't >> really feel like paying for assembly). > > Speaking for myself only, soldering TQFP isn't terribly difficult--I could almost solder an 0.8 mm lead pitch QFP without my glasses. 0.5 mm for me requires a binocular loupe and careful checking with an inspection microscope. But I've done a lot of it and had zero casualties, much to my surprise. Alas, all the QFPs I want to use for my current project are 0.5mm pitch. :-\ But my eyes aren't so bad. And I have an OK iron now, which should do a fair sight better than my old 30W Weller firestarter. I've done 0.8mm QFP in the past, it just required a lot of cleanup. I moved to a toaster oven for "production" (i.e. greater than 5 piece) quantities, which worked well enough; only a bridge every other board, which was easy to clean out. > What I find more of a problem are SMT transistors and other tiny multi-lead components. It takes a fairly steady hand to get them just right. For two-leaded components, you can just let the component find its own place floating on two molten solder pads. Discretes are something I'm OK with (transistor and other). They can be a bit of a pain inasmuch as they tend to stick to the iron for me (or, for 0402 discretes, to the tweezers), but I've never destroyed one except for maybe a few resistor arrays. > Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. I started with a 100W American Beauty iron wiring point-to-point (lesson to be learned: Look before you grab). PCB was a learning experience and SMT yet another one. I still don't know the right way to handle BGA packages doing manual assembly, so I steer clear of those. I see a lot about hot air reflow machines, which can be acquired for right around $100 from SparkFun. The videos I've seen make it look very effective, and it's probably the next major piece of equipment I'll invest in. For the curious: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10706 For the moment on my projects, I'm avoiding BGAs because I'd like to avoid paying for assembly and I don't have a hot air reflow machine. - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 19:38:30 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:38:30 -0400 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection In-Reply-To: <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> References: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> Message-ID: <61d7556b-5178-43b1-a80f-d2feb4d89af7@email.android.com> I could justify a $75 price tag maybe.... I suppose I could set up some ebay alerts on those part numbers but I have a feeling it would take awhile to show up. Building one seems hard and might net me little discount after I'm said and done. Thanks Keith Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > It depends on how much you want to wait, and/or how much you want to >spend/work > > You can do an adapter, but it is some trouble and work > > Or you can wait it appear on Ebay :o) > >--- >Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Monahan" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:02 AM >Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection > > >> I've got the need to connect a logic analyzer to a socketed 84-pin >PLCC >> IC. The test clips I'm familiar with won't attach properly because >they >> expect a soldered chip instead. >> >> Besides removing the socket and resoldering the IC directly to the >PCB and >> using a traditional test clip (which are affordable), are there any >other >> plug-and-play solutions? >> >> I've found these >> >> >http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off-the-shelf_solutions/logic_analyzer-scope_adapters/socketable_bug_katchers/plcc/ >> >> >http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=BC4-84-PCC5-0000 > >> ($308) >> >> and >> >> http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=pa84-pp ($185 >US) >> >> which seem pretty darn cool, but also pretty darn expensive. >> >> The PCB is almost 30 years old, for whatever that's worth. >> >> Thanks, >> Keith -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 17 19:38:52 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 19:38:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 12:18 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Despite how they look, QFPs are among some of the easiest surface mount >> parts to fit. A 25W pencil iron with a small tip (~2mm) and some liquid >> RMA flux will do the job. I've used irons with tips as large as 4mm for >> this task when in a bind. Granted, I've been soldering for decades, but >> still...SMT isn't /that/ hard... > > I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never really > kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering fine-pitch parts. > My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a birthday present recently, > though (I picked a good one!), so I may be doing a bit more in the > not-too-distant future (more so if my QBUS board ever gets off the > ground, because I don't really feel like paying for assembly). When you get a bridge, clean the iron's tip of excess solder, apply a drop of liquid rosin flux to the joints, and drag the iron down and away from the component towards the ends of the leads. A narrow chisel or heel type soldering tip helps, but the real key is the liquid RMA flux. >> It was also extremely common to see AMD 386DX QFP chips fitted onto a >> PGA carrier board that could be plugged into a standard i386DX socket. >> I own a bunch of these (and motherboards for them) which I plan to use >> for a future multi-processor project. [That is, IF I can ever get my >> hands on enough 40MHz 387DX math co-processors -- one guy on eBay has >> had them for more than 10 years but his per unit price makes my project >> cost prohibitive since I need at least a dozen of them.] > > I had never seen them, but then I realized that I didn't start building > machines until the 486 era. SMT-on-a-carrier is certainly a common > paradigm; after all, it's basically what flip-chip PGAs are on a > different scale. Once I get access to the boxes that I have the boards stored in I'll see if I can snap some photos. It may be awhile, however. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Oct 17 19:43:40 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 17:43:40 -0700 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold Message-ID: <507F50BC.30102@jwsss.com> The fellow who posted the record some time back which was titled to be PDP1 music reposted the record for $299 and sold it. the reason to note anything about it is that I had emailed him about taking a capture of it and passing it along before selling the record The ebay listing up right now has a track you can download as long as it stays up. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170923504018 Here is the link to the song as well. http://ampnoise.com/mp3/MusicOnThePDP-1X_Pinafore.mp3 I thought it was nice of him to do that, as many people who list things on ebay would have bothered. I would say that it was just to sell the record, but I think the rarity of it to record collectors and a lower price is why it sold. Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 17 19:49:15 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:49:15 -0600 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/17/2012 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. I started with a 100W American Beauty > iron wiring point-to-point (lesson to be learned: Look before you > grab). PCB was a learning experience and SMT yet another one. I still > don't know the right way to handle BGA packages doing manual assembly, > so I steer clear of those. > > FWIW, I've got a motherboard here (386 or 486--I don't remember) where a > QFP CPU is mounted on a carrier that plugs into a PGA socket. The thing > was purchased in that configuration. Back in the 80's, what cpu's were for S100 boards other than Z80's ,8080's and 8085's? > --Chuck > Ben. From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 19:59:38 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:59:38 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07A9A004-E946-4CD8-B1A9-3D4EC35DB0EA@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > When you get a bridge, clean the iron's tip of excess solder, apply a drop of liquid rosin flux to the joints, and drag the iron down and away from the component towards the ends of the leads. A narrow chisel or heel type soldering tip helps, but the real key is the liquid RMA flux. The liquid flux helped a lot last time I was doing any real fine- pitch soldering. Didn't have it before that, which was dumb. Oh well, live and learn. Desoldering braid was the next best thing, but it can be finicky (especially when you don't have a very high power iron). > Once I get access to the boxes that I have the boards stored in I'll see if I can snap some photos. It may be awhile, however. I have a good idea of what it looks like, since I've used a number of QFP parts on carriers like that. Would still be interesting for historical purposes, though, I guess. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 20:08:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:08:08 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6EE23F06-461F-455F-BCF3-B8D422F3636D@gmail.com> On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> in which case it's a limit of the S-100 >> bus and not the 386 in question. > > ... just that, the 16MB limit, then I thought "why not use the smaller > cheaper simpler version of the 386 that only *supports* 16MB and has > half as many legs to solder, half the bus width and so on." It seemed > an obvious question to me; if one is building an S100 computer, and > that means no more than 16MB, then use the easier chip that only > supports 16MB. Ah, yes. So: the S-100 bus only allows for 24 bits of address, but many things you'd like to run on a 386 (BSD, etc) are happy to run well beyond that. So, like the MicroVAX of yore (a VAX system which ran on QBUS, which only had 22 address bits), they've opted to add an alternate side bus for memory to allow for a full 32-bit address space for RAM. So yes, a 386SX would be a perfect match for S-100 in principle, but if you wanted to take advantage of the 32-bit address space of the 386, you might want to go with a DX and an alternate RAM solution. - Dave From wackyvorlon at me.com Wed Oct 17 20:21:12 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:21:12 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> X-rays aren't terribly hard to produce, it's producing them safely that's the trick. You might try hunting down a used dental x-ray machine on eBay, the ones I remember seeing have gone for ~$500. Another idea is using scotch tape in a vacuum to make the x-rays. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-17, at 8:20 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Only way I know of to handle BGA is doing solder reflow. This can be done with solder paste and a hotplate, Sparkfun's website has info. The only hitch is that you can only check if the joint is good by powering it up. Otherwise you need access to an x-ray machine. > > I've often wondered if it's practical to build a tabletop x-ray machine for this purpose. Any ideas how much one would cost? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 20:40:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:40:04 -0400 Subject: X-ray machines, was Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> Message-ID: <507F5DF4.5030808@neurotica.com> On 10/17/2012 09:21 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > X-rays aren't terribly hard to produce, it's producing them safely > that's the trick. You might try hunting down a used dental x-ray > machine on eBay, the ones I remember seeing have gone for ~$500. I do have a few of these as well, complete and functional. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 20:42:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 02:42:07 +0100 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <6EE23F06-461F-455F-BCF3-B8D422F3636D@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <6EE23F06-461F-455F-BCF3-B8D422F3636D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 02:08, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 5:18 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> in which case it's a limit of the S-100 >>> bus and not the 386 in question. >> >> ... just that, the 16MB limit, then I thought "why not use the smaller >> cheaper simpler version of the 386 that only *supports* 16MB and has >> half as many legs to solder, half the bus width and so on." It seemed >> an obvious question to me; if one is building an S100 computer, and >> that means no more than 16MB, then use the easier chip that only >> supports 16MB. > > Ah, yes. So: the S-100 bus only allows for 24 bits of address, but > many things you'd like to run on a 386 (BSD, etc) are happy to run > well beyond that. So, like the MicroVAX of yore (a VAX system which > ran on QBUS, which only had 22 address bits), they've opted to add > an alternate side bus for memory to allow for a full 32-bit address > space for RAM. > > So yes, a 386SX would be a perfect match for S-100 in principle, > but if you wanted to take advantage of the 32-bit address space > of the 386, you might want to go with a DX and an alternate RAM > solution. Well, yes, I got that (although I didn't know that detail about VMS) - it just seems a lot of extra work for a hobbyist project. But what do I know about such things? Nothing, clearly! TBH, in terms of low-end OSs that would work well on a 386, 16MB is a lot. You could run Linux or NetBSD happily in that. Probably even Linux 3.2 if carefully compiled. As has already been discussed, implementing VGA on an S100 board is non-trivial. The machine is not likely to be running Windows 2000, and indeed, on a 26 year old CPU, it won't be running any full modern OS whatsoever. (Yes, the 80386 was 26y ago. 1986. Sheesh. I remember it being the big new thing, the great white hope for the PC.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 17 20:58:36 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 18:58:36 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <507F624C.30403@sydex.com> On 10/17/2012 05:49 PM, ben wrote: > On 10/17/2012 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back in the 80's, what cpu's were for S100 boards other than Z80's > ,8080's and 8085's? You name it. 68K, 8086, 8088, 32016. ISTR a 6502 S100 board... Was there a Transputer board for S100? --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 21:05:39 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:05:39 -0500 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold In-Reply-To: <507F50BC.30102@jwsss.com> References: <507F50BC.30102@jwsss.com> Message-ID: amazing On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:43 PM, jim s wrote: > The fellow who posted the record some time back which was titled to be > PDP1 music reposted the record for $299 and sold it. > > the reason to note anything about it is that I had emailed him about > taking a capture of it and passing it along before selling the record > > The ebay listing up right now has a track you can download as long as it > stays up. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=**170923504018 > > Here is the link to the song as well. > > http://ampnoise.com/mp3/**MusicOnThePDP-1X_Pinafore.mp3 > > I thought it was nice of him to do that, as many people who list things on > ebay would have bothered. I would say that it was just to sell the record, > but I think the rarity of it to record collectors and a lower price is why > it sold. > > Jim > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 17 21:38:17 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 19:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, ben wrote: > On 10/17/2012 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. I started with a 100W American Beauty >> iron wiring point-to-point (lesson to be learned: Look before you >> grab). PCB was a learning experience and SMT yet another one. I still >> don't know the right way to handle BGA packages doing manual assembly, >> so I steer clear of those. >> >> FWIW, I've got a motherboard here (386 or 486--I don't remember) where a >> QFP CPU is mounted on a carrier that plugs into a PGA socket. The thing >> was purchased in that configuration. > > Back in the 80's, what cpu's were for S100 boards other than Z80's ,8080's > and 8085's? I've sold a few M68k boards from CompuPro and retain one for my own use. Such a board was used to make an M68k S100 machine running a port of Sys V UNIX called TRICEP. I sold Al Kossow such a machine about a year ago. Al, what's the status of that machine? I've also found boards with 8088, 8086, 80186, 80286, and something from National Semiconductor that I forget. I have an advertising flyer for an 80386 CPU board somewhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 22:08:05 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:08:05 -0400 Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > My AN/FSQ-7 computer tribute site received a bit of publicity in Wired > Magazine: > > http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/10/movie-computers/ > http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.html?f=50 Weird analysis about the VAX 780 in Seven - I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that a police department would still be using one in the mid-90's. The college I went to was still chugging along on an old Amdahl 370-clone in the same time period - as the primary mail server and host for various licensed apps (mainly SPSS) Given IT wasn't the hot cost center it is today, I'd imagine most police departments would be loathe to shell out for an upgrade to something that still probably worked just fine. Now, why the director put that thing the precinct room is another question. Artistic license? Also, that episode of Bancek with the fake "supercomputer" was outstanding. Kind of a "Murders in the Rue Morgue" plotline, sans the murders. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 17 23:37:11 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:37:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <6EE23F06-461F-455F-BCF3-B8D422F3636D@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, yes, I got that (although I didn't know that detail about VMS) - > it just seems a lot of extra work for a hobbyist project. But what do I > know about such things? Nothing, clearly! > > TBH, in terms of low-end OSs that would work well on a 386, 16MB is a > lot. You could run Linux or NetBSD happily in that. Probably even Linux > 3.2 if carefully compiled. > > As has already been discussed, implementing VGA on an S100 board is > non-trivial. The machine is not likely to be running Windows 2000, and > indeed, on a 26 year old CPU, it won't be running any full modern OS > whatsoever. > > (Yes, the 80386 was 26y ago. 1986. Sheesh. I remember it being the big > new thing, the great white hope for the PC.) Just think, if not for the 80386, we most likely wouldn't have Linux ;) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 17 23:49:20 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:49:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <07A9A004-E946-4CD8-B1A9-3D4EC35DB0EA@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <07A9A004-E946-4CD8-B1A9-3D4EC35DB0EA@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> When you get a bridge, clean the iron's tip of excess solder, apply a >> drop of liquid rosin flux to the joints, and drag the iron down and >> away from the component towards the ends of the leads. A narrow chisel >> or heel type soldering tip helps, but the real key is the liquid RMA >> flux. > > The liquid flux helped a lot last time I was doing any real fine- pitch > soldering. Didn't have it before that, which was dumb. Oh well, live > and learn. Desoldering braid was the next best thing, but it can be > finicky (especially when you don't have a very high power iron). Desoldering braid really shouldn't require much extra heat. If it isn't removing solder well, try adding some liquid flux to the braid. Unless you have to stay "lead free", you might also consider reflowing the joint with some good old 60/40 or 63/37. >> Once I get access to the boxes that I have the boards stored in I'll >> see if I can snap some photos. It may be awhile, however. > > I have a good idea of what it looks like, since I've used a number of > QFP parts on carriers like that. Would still be interesting for > historical purposes, though, I guess. It is interesting to see how the boards continued to shrink in size too. Towards the end of the PC era 80386, the smallest boards were barely much larger than the space required to fit the ISA slots. Photos of some of those "universal" type 386/486 motherboards that I mentioned might make for far more interesting photos though. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 17 23:58:44 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 06:58:44 +0200 Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You never knows with David Fincher. Perhaps a private joke (Seven-7-780...) Or something similar to the VaxBar initiative. SPc. 2012/10/18 Jason McBrien : > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.html?f=50 > > Weird analysis about the VAX 780 in Seven - I don't think it's outside the > realm of possibility that a police department would still be using one in > the mid-90's. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 18 01:01:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 23:01:30 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <6EE23F06-461F-455F-BCF3-B8D422F3636D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <507F9B3A.5050903@sydex.com> On 10/17/2012 06:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, yes, I got that (although I didn't know that detail about VMS) - > it just seems a lot of extra work for a hobbyist project. But what do > I know about such things? Nothing, clearly! > > TBH, in terms of low-end OSs that would work well on a 386, 16MB is a > lot. You could run Linux or NetBSD happily in that. Probably even > Linux 3.2 if carefully compiled. Aw heck, just stick a Raspberry Pi on a blank S100 prototype card, hook up the power and a few extension cables for keyboard and video and you're in business--with 512MB of memory now. You might even be able to emulate a 386 on an RP about as fast as a native 386. Sort of like the "new" Commodore 64... --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 18 02:29:57 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:29:57 +0200 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? In-Reply-To: <41F9541A-42F8-4C49-8B98-C6498E59825F@gmail.com> References: <507AF96C.1010404@cimmeri.com> <507AFD56.4080305@neurotica.com> <00fc01cdaa3c$67cb0350$376109f0$@ntlworld.com> <20121016194838.GA8585@mail.loomcom.com> <41F9541A-42F8-4C49-8B98-C6498E59825F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121018092957.6f1725ce.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:18:26 -0400 David Riley wrote: > A first pass using commodity chips that "just work" might > not be a bad idea just to get the ball rolling; more > compliant solutions can be devised later, and a > 7438 solution isn't going to blow anything up. My words. I thought about a "universal" Uni- / QBus device and CPU emulator some weeks ago. The bus driver chips are really the smalest problem. The usual hobyist QBus box is a single BA23 / BA123 / BA213. In that situation you will get away with somthing thats much lower speced. The real problem is to make a complete hardware solution. I.e. design and _manufacture_ a PCB at an affordable price. AND write all the software. The later can be a huge task. (MSCP...) If I did it I would go as far as putting an ARM SOC on the board that runs NetBSD plus a FPGA as QBus / UniBus glue logic. I'd not go without NetBSD because that way you get a large software ecosystem. This will ease developement of software for this beast imensely. (E.g. you can write / prototype NetBSD kernel device drivers as modules written in the Lua scripting language.) Think of a board that runs NetBSD and simh where the peripherals are partly emulated and partly real QBus hardware. Start an other programm on that NetBSD board and it starts to emulate a MSCP disk controler for a real PDP-11 or VAX CPU where the disk image is attached via iSCSI... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 03:01:44 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 05:01:44 -0300 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <29239C12953341179BA0329A8D5942B9@tababook> > -Dave > (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) \o/ (photos, or else...) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 03:03:32 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 05:03:32 -0300 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75850C78C39441F8B2FF4D4138D57A1F@tababook> > socket for a i386DX (and a second PGA socket for an i387DX). There were > even boards with 4 PGA sockets, i386DX, i387DX, i486DX/SX, i487SX (I own > some examples of these boards). These "universal" motherboards were not Photos, please? Detailed. :oD From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 18 03:28:45 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:28:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <29239C12953341179BA0329A8D5942B9@tababook> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <29239C12953341179BA0329A8D5942B9@tababook> Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 09:01, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> -Dave >> (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) > > > \o/ > > (photos, or else...) I had a SAAB 99gl... it was Wintergreen (florescent green) with dark tinted windows. It looked like a demented frog. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 18 03:51:19 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: <507ECD3D.5020604@bitsavers.org> References: <507ECD3D.5020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, Al Kossow wrote: >> So, does anybody have (preferrably a scan of) the OASIS user's manual? >> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/phaseOneSystems/oasis/ Oh, thanks! But one has to know that you have to look for Phase One Systems and not for Altos... well, Wikipedia knows that, and I must have missed the obvious. BTW, for those who don't know the system account names and passwords, here's what I have discovered from the disk image: Username Password -------------------------------- SYSTEM ALTOS515 SONETT3 SAABER TERMINO WYSEMAN Christian From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Oct 17 02:01:40 2012 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 09:01:40 +0200 Subject: HP calculator R-> In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Hey HP gurus, trying to read printouts from HP 67 programs and run them on > my new HP35s > > Does this R-> in the printout mean an enter keypress? > My guess would be either R->P, stack roll down or stack roll up. It should be possible to decide between these by studying the code :-) Note: if the listings you're trying to port are actually from web pages (as opposed to actual printouts), it could be that there are hints on the web pages about how some of the "special" symbols are represented. From cesarla at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 22:13:00 2012 From: cesarla at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?C=E9sar_L=F3pez_A=2E?=) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2012 20:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Central Point Option Boards available Message-ID: <1350529980.37021.YahooMailNeo@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi, have you a Central Point Option Deluxe Board with the software copy II PC??? Thanx ? C?sar L?pez A. "Hasta que gozamos de la oportunidad de amar a alg?n animal, una parte del alma permanece dormida" From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 04:04:33 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 06:04:33 -0300 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> Message-ID: > What I find more of a problem are SMT transistors and other tiny > multi-lead components. It takes a fairly steady hand to get them just > right. For two-leaded components, you can just let the component find its > own place floating on two molten solder pads. Tin one pad, solder it on this pad, solder other pads. It is as simple as that From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Oct 18 04:25:08 2012 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:25:08 +0200 Subject: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? Message-ID: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> Are images of UCSD-P for the Pascal Microengine available somewhere ? That would be version III of the UCSD-P system. Jos From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 18 04:56:08 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:56:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PCS CADMUS 9700 System power-up difficulties In-Reply-To: <1350512634.81961.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1350512634.81961.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We also had problems with our 9900/4's 24V/+-12V power supply (needed for the SMD 8" disk drive). It turned out that 1. the metal clamps that press the transistor cases to the heat sink were corroded and fell off (and may produce a short circuit!) 2. some electrolytics in both PSUs were shorted and needed replacement 3. a CMOS NAND gate (CD4011) was bad 4. later on (after the PSU did work again), the TDA4718 went bad I think 3. and 4. were caused by the short circuit described in 1. On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, P Gebhardt wrote: > and?applying power to?the switching supply turned on?the > blinkening?kight of the ?green "RUN" button, but pressing it did not do > anything. Afterwards, I deconnected the supply, checked that power The RUN button is only to halt the machine in combination with the INIT key switch position. > just seems dead. I guess that the supply has a problem. It's difficult > to check it, though, without schematics. It has a small ribbon cable > which connects to a small PCB with several ICs on which can be found the > "RUN"-button. I have no idea, which signals that supply needs in order > to enter a state at which it should be on. The small PCB with the > buttons and ICs could also be defective. ?There is also a key-switch, That key switch is the power-on and reset switch. If really nothing happens, check the standby voltage (12V). > but I played with both positions and it does not influence anything on > my system. The systems seem rare. At least, I could find only little > information on the net and not documentation at all.Has anybody a clue Then you haven't looked hard enough ;-) From our museum's site, there's the following links to our PCS docs: ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/pcs/ > on how to power-up this thing?Are there other owners of PCS systems, who > can tell me who the system behaves upon applying power to the PSU and if > it is sufficient to press the RUN-button to turn it on? ? Kind regards, As said, the RUN button does essentially nothing. But have a look at the documents, they describe quite well how everything works, and they contain the description and pinout of the various connectors. If you search the usenet archive, you'll find a posting on d.a.f.c. from somebody, dated 29.3.2005, that sais "[...] Elkos sind generell ein Problem, ich habe ja bei meiner Sammlung auch die Tage schon mehrere repariert: PCS Cadmus 9700 - Elko mit Kurzschlu?, Nebeneffekt abgebrannte Leiterbahn, sonst nix. [...]" Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 18 05:00:03 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:00:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: References: <507ECD3D.5020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, Al Kossow wrote: >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/phaseOneSystems/oasis/ > > Oh, thanks! > But one has to know that you have to look for Phase One Systems and not for > Altos... well, Wikipedia knows that, and I must have missed the obvious. It seems that the most important manual, the System Reference Manual, is missing. I think that this manual should be part of the Altos document set. Christian From spedraja at ono.com Thu Oct 18 05:29:24 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 12:29:24 +0200 Subject: Altos OASIS In-Reply-To: References: <507ECD3D.5020604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yes. All the Oasis manuals stored in Bitsavers have a reference in their first pages to this manual. My first contact with the Oasis discs was through Perter Schorn's website: http://www.schorn.ch/altair.html ... In this sub-page: http://www.schorn.ch/altair_5.php ... you can access diverse disk images for Z80 systems, prepared to run under SIMH. One of them is OASIS Multiuser Version for Vector Graphic: http://www.schorn.ch/cpm/zip/oasis.zip I remember to read some instructions about the installation and running of this OASIS version a couple of years ago when I installed it under my Z80 simulator. But I can't remember where... perhaps in comp.os.cpm: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!forum/comp.os.cpm Regards Sergio 2012/10/18 Christian Corti : > On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >>> >>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/phaseOneSystems/oasis/ >> > > It seems that the most important manual, the System Reference Manual, is > missing. I think that this manual should be part of the Altos document set. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Oct 18 05:45:33 2012 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:45:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCS CADMUS 9700 System power-up difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <1350512634.81961.YahooMailNeo@web133102.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1350557133.64263.YahooMailNeo@web133106.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hello Christian, Wow, thank you *very* much for your detailed information and the link to the documents ! When I find some time during this winter, I will try to find the faults and let you know about the progress. Kind regards, Pierre ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Christian Corti An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: 11:56 Donnerstag, 18.Oktober 2012 Betreff: Re: PCS CADMUS 9700 System power-up difficulties We also had problems with our 9900/4's 24V/+-12V power supply (needed for the SMD 8" disk drive). It turned out that 1. the metal clamps that press the transistor cases to the heat sink were corroded and fell off (and may produce a short circuit!) 2. some electrolytics in both PSUs were shorted and needed replacement 3. a CMOS NAND gate (CD4011) was bad 4. later on (after the PSU did work again), the TDA4718 went bad I think 3. and 4. were caused by the short circuit described in 1. On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, P Gebhardt wrote: > and?applying power to?the switching supply turned on?the blinkening?kight of the ?green "RUN" button, but pressing it did not do anything. Afterwards, I deconnected the supply, checked that power The RUN button is only to halt the machine in combination with the INIT key switch position. > just seems dead. I guess that the supply has a problem. It's difficult to check it, though, without schematics. It has a small ribbon cable which connects to a small PCB with several ICs on which can be found the "RUN"-button. I have no idea, which signals that supply needs in order to enter a state at which it should be on. The small PCB with the buttons and ICs could also be defective. ?There is also a key-switch, That key switch is the power-on and reset switch. If really nothing happens, check the standby voltage (12V). > but I played with both positions and it does not influence anything on my system. The systems seem rare. At least, I could find only little information on the net and not documentation at all.Has anybody a clue Then you haven't looked hard enough ;-) From our museum's site, there's the following links to our PCS docs: ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/pcs/ > on how to power-up this thing?Are there other owners of PCS systems, who can tell me who the system behaves upon applying power to the PSU and if it is sufficient to press the RUN-button to turn it on? ? Kind regards, As said, the RUN button does essentially nothing. But have a look at the documents, they describe quite well how everything works, and they contain the description and pinout of the various connectors. If you search the usenet archive, you'll find a posting on d.a.f.c. from somebody, dated 29.3.2005, that sais "[...] Elkos sind generell ein Problem, ich habe ja bei meiner Sammlung auch die Tage schon mehrere repariert: PCS Cadmus 9700 - Elko mit Kurzschlu?, Nebeneffekt abgebrannte Leiterbahn, sonst nix. [...]" Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Oct 18 06:47:57 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:47:57 +0200 Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20121018114757.GA91524@beast.freibergnet.de> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I find myself in need of a new desoldering pump. I found a number on the > Farnell site, anyone have any recommendations for a good one that does not > cost more than ?25ish (about $40) and for which I can get spare nozzles? > > Here is the page: > http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+204695&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt= > desolder+pump&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial > > > Regards > > Rob ...spare Nozzles? Couldn't understand how one can work with such a thing w/o to put some peace of silicone rubber tubing over the nozzle. But when you are using this, you don't need no stinking pare nozzles... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 07:56:31 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 07:56:31 -0500 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> On 10/17/2012 10:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/17/2012 09:48 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> A bigger problem is my car has 167000 miles on it >> >> Another 19,000 for one light-second and 71,900 until you've reached the >> moon, then. >> >> I've got around 250,000 on the car, 175,000 on the van, and no idea >> about the truck as that only shows 5 digits. Nobody starts worrying >> about mileage around here until a vehicle gets to 300k. > > You don't have many American cars over there, I guess. :-/ People > over here are well-trained to thinkt hat 80K is "high mileage", and you > know what happens then..."if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, > it's old". Next, a happy salesman! I *am* in the US - just in the middle of nowhere, so it's at least a couple of hours to civilization in any direction and the miles pile up fast. The low population density and lack of any kind of mandatory vehicle inspection means that there's an awful lot of old iron on the roads that would have been sent to the junkyard years ago elsewhere. 300k seems to be about the magic number of miles where major failures that can't be fixed with a few cheap parts and/or spit and baling wire occur :-) It's not so common to see vehicles over that number. > (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) What model? I think the only Saab's I've seen in the US are more recent ones (I'm sure some of the '80s ones made it over here too, not so sure about anything earlier) cheers Jules From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 18 08:34:07 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:34:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 13:56, Jules Richardson wrote: > 300k seems to be about the magic number of miles where major failures that > can't be fixed with a few cheap parts and/or spit and baling wire occur :-) > It's not so common to see vehicles over that number. The golf converable (the one with 170,000 miles) seems to run fine, as long as I keep putting oil in it. The main problem with it is the leaking roof. Kind of a drag in England. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 18 10:16:26 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 08:16:26 -0700 Subject: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? In-Reply-To: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> References: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <50801D4A.1090902@bitsavers.org> On 10/18/12 2:25 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Are images of UCSD-P for the Pascal Microengine available somewhere ? > > That would be version III of the UCSD-P system. > > Jos > > try the two I just uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/WesternDigital/PascalMicroengine they haven't been verified From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 18 11:15:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121018091045.A17721@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: > What model? I think the only Saab's I've seen in the US are more recent > ones (I'm sure some of the '80s ones made it over here too, not so sure > about anything earlier) 40 years ago, there used to be some Saabs in USA with three cylinders and drivers scrambling under the dash to disenage the freewheeling device. Didn't Billy Crystal drive [and crash] one in "Throw Mama From The Train"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 18 11:21:24 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:21:24 -0500 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> > From: David Riley > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board > > I suppose. I've had terrible luck with bridging, but I never > really kept at it long enough to get much good at soldering > fine-pitch parts. My wife got me a pretty decent iron as a > birthday present recently, though (I picked a good one!), so > I may be doing a bit more in the not-too-distant future (more > so if my QBUS board ever gets off the ground, because I don't > really feel like paying for assembly). > I have been doing fine-pitch soldering for a long time. I do stuff as fine as 0.4mm lead pitch, which is a bit of a pain. The bulk of stuff I now make with a pick and place machine and a reflow oven (converted toaster oven with thermocouple ramp-and-soak controller). But, I still do a lot of prototypes and rework by hand. The MOST important thing is a stereo zoom microscope with a long working distance. A working distance of 2-3" is necessary to get your hands and a soldering iron under it. A ring light can be made from a ring of PC board material that fits around the snout of the microscope. Carve a ring in the copper of the PCB so it becomes two concentric rings. Use a 12 V DC wall-wart power supply and 8 while LEDs, with about 1 K Ohm series resistors. Make a piece of cardboard with a 1/2" hole in it, use this as a mask to isolate the light from one LED at a time and bend the LEDs so they all converge about where the viewing area is. This mask is for alignment only, store it somewhere as you will occasionally bump the LEDs and have to realign them. Solder braid can be used to remove excess solder bridging the leads, which WILL happen frequently. For big, high-density chips, this is my procedure: First, put a tiny dab of solder on 2 corner pads. Align the chip with the pads, and solder the corners that have the extra solder. Now, use a piece of solid wire to apply GC brand (or equivalent) liquid flux across the leads. Just dip the end of the wire into the bottle and then wipe it across the leads. If the board has enough solder plating, you may not need to add any solder, just use the iron to reflow the pad solder onto the leads. I generally add a little speck of solder every 4th or 5th lead as I go down the rows. I use .015" solder, the thinnest I seem to be able to get nowadays. You used to be able to get .010" fairly easily. I've probably done about a thousand of these now using this technique. It is probably best to wash off the flux residue later with solvent. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 18 11:38:59 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:38:59 -0500 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> > From: jim s > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold > Message-ID: <507F50BC.30102 at jwsss.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > The fellow who posted the record some time back which was titled to be > PDP1 music reposted the record for $299 and sold it. > > the reason to note anything about it is that I had emailed him about > taking a capture of it and passing it along before selling the record > > The ebay listing up right now has a track you can download as long as it > stays up. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170923504018 > > Here is the link to the song as well. > > http://ampnoise.com/mp3/MusicOnThePDP-1X_Pinafore.mp3 > > I thought it was nice of him to do that, as many people who list things > on ebay would have bothered. I would say that it was just to sell the > record, but I think the rarity of it to record collectors and a lower > price is why it sold. > > Man, what a blast from the past! A friend of mine did some work like this on a PDP-5, about 1970, at Washington U. I think the PDP-1 does a little better, but it was fairly comparable. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 18 11:53:49 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:53:49 -0500 Subject: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080341D.8070908@pico-systems.com> From: Jason McBrien To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: The Most Wonderfully Ridiculous Movie Computers of All Time http://www.starringthecomputer.com/feature.html?f=50 Weird analysis about the VAX 780 in Seven - I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that a police department would still be using one in the mid-90's. The college I went to was still chugging along on an old Amdahl 370-clone in the same time period - as the primary mail server and host for various licensed apps (mainly SPSS) I have NO difficulty believing municipal departments would hang on to old gear as long as it would stay reasonably reliable. And, there is even STILL no shortage of VAX-11/780 parts at the brokers, if you know how to run the diags and swap boards. You could even repair the machine at the chip level with a soldering iron, solder sucker and dikes. There are pretty much NO custom parts in the entire machine except the fixed microcode fuseible PROMS, the LSI-11 and the inductors in the power supply modules. Given IT wasn't the hot cost center it is today, I'd imagine most police departments would be loathe to shell out for an upgrade to something that still probably worked just fine. Now, why the director put that thing the precinct room is another question. Artistic license? Now, that is VERY funny! Anyone who has ever walked behind a running 780 with a handful of papers at mid-thigh level knows what those cooling blowers will do! I can imagine the whole room being filled with whirling sheaves of paper! For those who don't know the 780 as well as I do (I was sysadmin on two of them, and also did a lot of hardware hacking and interfacing on them) they had 3 one-half Hp (I think) centrifugal blowers that sucked air down through the card cage and blew it out the back of the cabinet through 3 fairly small vents. The air shot out at at least 50 MPH, probably more. The 780 has a card cage that ran the entire length of the ~5' long cabinet, CPU at the left, memory in the middle and I/O sections at the right, IIRC. (Hmmm, have a vague recollection maybe the memory was at the left....) Power supply boxes were below the logic cards, blowers below that, and LSI-11 and it's floppy drive at the bottom left. Jon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Oct 18 06:24:33 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:24:33 +0200 Subject: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? In-Reply-To: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> References: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <507FE6F1.4050109@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 18.10.2012 11:25, schrieb Jos Dreesen: > Are images of UCSD-P for the Pascal Microengine available somewhere ? > > That would be version III of the UCSD-P system. > > Jos Hans Otten had unpacked text/code files supposedly for the Microengine on his pascal.hansotten.com web page, but this seems to be under reorganization currently. I could look at home where this is on my disks. It is not a bootable image, though. I am also looking for such images, as well as the boot prom listing/dump (not the MICROM contents - well, could be fun as well) beyond the stuff that can found on bitsavers. -- Holger From francois.dion at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 09:41:22 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:41:22 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. Just a simple screenshot to start with... Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 18 12:26:32 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:26:32 -0700 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> On 10/18/2012 09:21 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > The MOST important thing is a > stereo zoom microscope with a long working distance. A working > distance of 2-3" is necessary to get your hands and a soldering iron > under it. A ring light can be made from a ring of PC board material > that fits around the snout of the microscope. Carve a ring in the > copper of the PCB so it becomes two concentric rings. Use a 12 V > DC wall-wart power supply and 8 while LEDs, with about 1 K Ohm > series resistors. Agree on the stereo microscope (dissection microscope). I find that the CCFL ring lights made for cars and motorcycles are cheap and give much more intense and even (shadowless) light. Typical diameter is about 100 mm and all seem to come with mounting clips or tabs. You can also get them in LED, but I find the light from a white CCFL much easier on the eyes. Cheap inverters are available to run the CCFL lamps. I use the microscope for initial positioning and completed inspection and prefer to use a binocular loupe during the actual soldering. > Solder braid can be used to remove excess solder bridging the > leads, which WILL happen frequently. For big, high-density > chips, this is my procedure: First, put a tiny dab of solder > on 2 corner pads. Align the chip with the pads, and solder > the corners that have the extra solder. For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's nearly foolproof. FWIW, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 12:34:58 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:34:58 +0100 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 15:41, Francois Dion wrote: > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. > > > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... I was going to guess Apple II or that era from the BASIC prompt of ] but not given the later hints... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 12:54:05 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:54:05 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 October 2012 15:41, Francois Dion wrote: >> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >> >> >> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >> >> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >> Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > I was going to guess Apple II or that era from the BASIC prompt of ] > but not given the later hints... I don't recognize the patch panel in #3, but the "CALL -151" and the color structure in #2 are a dead giveaway as to the architecture. Was there some embedded or appliance device with a particular machine at its core? Something used in a classroom or lab setting perhaps? -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 13:04:21 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:04:21 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 October 2012 15:41, Francois Dion wrote: >> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >> >> >> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >> >> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >> Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > I was going to guess Apple II or that era from the BASIC prompt of ] > but not given the later hints... I'd count Apple II out because none of the Apple IIs which had the ability to use lowercase required a manual reset at startup. However, call -151 to get to the monitor is definitely an Apple II BASIC thing. - Dave From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 13:04:23 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:04:23 +0000 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1846862527-1350583464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1626883519-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Yeah clue 2 with call -151 from basic to a microassembler makes it an apple II to me though I don't know what edition or version of a 2 if that's necessary. Are you emulating it on a raspberry pi? -----Original Message----- From: Francois Dion Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:41:22 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: It lives! I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. Just a simple screenshot to start with... Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Oct 18 13:13:03 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:13:03 +0000 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... It's Applesoft, but says "PRESS RESET" at the top, so.... an Apple II (not plus) with Applesoft language card? Or upgraded with Applesoft ROMs? Personally I like Integer Basic :-) Tim. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 18 13:26:26 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:26:26 +0100 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 19:13, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Personally I like Integer Basic :-) It's much faster. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 13:36:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:36:51 +0000 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold In-Reply-To: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Did the chm ever record any of their pdp-1 tunes? That was fun to hear while there. I can't remember the gentlemans name who was on that team there but he was also working on some additional tunes at the time (I guess that was quite a few years ago though). -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 11:38:59 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold > From: jim s > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold > Message-ID: <507F50BC.30102 at jwsss.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > The fellow who posted the record some time back which was titled to be > PDP1 music reposted the record for $299 and sold it. > > the reason to note anything about it is that I had emailed him about > taking a capture of it and passing it along before selling the record > > The ebay listing up right now has a track you can download as long as it > stays up. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170923504018 > > Here is the link to the song as well. > > http://ampnoise.com/mp3/MusicOnThePDP-1X_Pinafore.mp3 > > I thought it was nice of him to do that, as many people who list things > on ebay would have bothered. I would say that it was just to sell the > record, but I think the rarity of it to record collectors and a lower > price is why it sold. > > Man, what a blast from the past! A friend of mine did some work like this on a PDP-5, about 1970, at Washington U. I think the PDP-1 does a little better, but it was fairly comparable. Jon From abs at absd.org Thu Oct 18 13:42:51 2012 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:42:51 +0100 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On 18 October 2012 19:26, John Many Jars wrote: > On 18 October 2012 19:13, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > > Personally I like Integer Basic :-) > > It's much faster. I always preferred to mix and match... A%=1<<16 FOO=77.6 :) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 18 13:41:11 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:41:11 -0500 Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <64D894A8FBEB44BAB77A758594BC6941@G4UGMT41> References: <5079CBCF.7070900@neurotica.com> <64D894A8FBEB44BAB77A758594BC6941@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <201210181853.q9IIrUf2030956@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:59 PM 10/13/2012, Dave wrote: >Oddly enough I am typing this on an old(ish) IBM T-41 laptop which, like the >proverbial broom that has had five heads and three shafts, has had most >items replaced, apart from the CPU and Display. I have a friend who owns a full set of late-1800s broom-making equipment. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 18 14:02:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:02:54 -0400 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5080525E.3090303@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2012 01:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear > nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the > polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can > get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's > nearly foolproof. I use a vacuum tweezer now; it makes short work of this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 18 13:54:19 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:54:19 -0500 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <20121015100550.P89883@shell.lmi.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> <20121015100550.P89883@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210181903.q9IJ3hg3031261@billy.ezwind.net> At 12:10 PM 10/15/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >I met Eldridge Cleaver twice. When he was organizing the Black Panthers >at Merritt College, and then again, when he was scavenging recyclables for >a living. I spent an afternoon with him once, too. He had some interesting stories from the old days. On-topic, I'd have a hard time finding the time to fix all the broken LCD monitors I could be given. Disassembly, finding the right cap, then reassembly - could take a long time, mental energy, and bench space. It's easier to only accept the working ones. - John From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 18 14:05:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:05:40 -0600 Subject: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? In-Reply-To: <507FE6F1.4050109@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> <507FE6F1.4050109@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <50805304.7080605@brouhaha.com> Holger Veit wrote: > I am also looking for such images, as well as the boot prom > listing/dump (not the MICROM > contents - well, could be fun as well) beyond the stuff that can found > on bitsavers. What boot PROM? Unless yours is different than mine, It has no boot PROM, nor a place to install one if you wanted to. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 18 15:17:52 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:17:52 -0400 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <508063F0.2080503@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2012 12:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I have been doing fine-pitch soldering for a long time. I do stuff as > fine as > 0.4mm lead pitch, which is a bit of a pain. The bulk of stuff I now make > with a pick and place machine and a reflow oven (converted toaster oven > with thermocouple ramp-and-soak controller). What type of pick-and-place system do you have? I'm looking to move in that direction. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ryan at hack.net Thu Oct 18 15:40:12 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:40:12 -0500 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 18, 2012, at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > > For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's nearly foolproof. That's a good tip. I usually tack the corner down with the iron, but I will try the nail polish idea. (I also use a dissection microscope and vacuum tweezer). -Ryan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 18 16:05:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 14:05:09 -0700 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <5080525E.3090303@neurotica.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> <5080525E.3090303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50806F05.90606@sydex.com> On 10/18/2012 12:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I use a vacuum tweezer now; it makes short work of this. If you're young enough to have steady hands, I assume--neither of which applies to me. What would be perfect is some tiny squares of double-stick Kapton tape, so I could put the component down and nudge it into place. Is there such a creature? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 18 16:18:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:18:27 -0400 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: <50806F05.90606@sydex.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <50803BC8.3080004@sydex.com> <5080525E.3090303@neurotica.com> <50806F05.90606@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50807223.5000705@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2012 05:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/18/2012 12:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I use a vacuum tweezer now; it makes short work of this. > > If you're young enough to have steady hands, I assume--neither of which > applies to me. What would be perfect is some tiny squares of > double-stick Kapton tape, so I could put the component down and nudge it > into place. 43, but my hands are still steady, thank heaven. I'll be in deep shit if I lose that. > Is there such a creature? I believe so, but I'm not certain. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Oct 18 15:23:39 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:23:39 -0400 Subject: Desoldering Pump In-Reply-To: <507B4732.6080401@sydex.com> References: <010101cdaa59$f066c290$d13447b0$@ntlworld.com> <507B3EEA.50502@jetnet.ab.ca> <507B4732.6080401@sydex.com> Message-ID: My soldapult is probably 30 years old now, originally bought by my dad. Works great. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-10-14, at 7:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/14/2012 03:38 PM, ben wrote: > >> Go the BIG money, you need both a temp controled iron and a built in pump >> using compressed air. >> I have no idea what it called, but they are a joy to use. > > Not for me, at least not the Weller ones--the ones that run from plant air and have a TCP tip with a glass reservoir stuffed with glass wool. I found that a plain old Soldapullt works better. > > That being said, there are some eBay sellers with a rig consisting of a 40W hollow-tipped iron and a desoldering pump built into a single unit--and that can be operated with a single hand. I think I paid about USD$25 for mine and I like it very much. Like any desoldering iron, you have to take care to keep it tinned. > > --Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 18 15:28:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:28:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> from "Paul Anderson" at Oct 17, 12 09:21:12 pm Message-ID: > Another idea is using scotch tape in a vacuum to make the x-rays. > Come again? Other than outgas like mad,, what is that supposed to do? -tony From wackyvorlon at me.com Thu Oct 18 16:50:39 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:50:39 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <296C372E-76AE-4088-B24D-91C9C5AA51A4@me.com> Peeling the tape creates triboluminescence. In a vacuum, this has enough energy to produce x-rays. Video demonstrating it here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=LQBjRF9mX1Y Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-18, at 4:28 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Another idea is using scotch tape in a vacuum to make the x-rays. >> > > Come again? Other than outgas like mad,, what is that supposed to do? > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 18 16:55:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:55:37 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50807AD9.7030001@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2012 08:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I've got around 250,000 on the car, 175,000 on the van, and no idea >>> about the truck as that only shows 5 digits. Nobody starts worrying >>> about mileage around here until a vehicle gets to 300k. >> >> You don't have many American cars over there, I guess. :-/ People >> over here are well-trained to thinkt hat 80K is "high mileage", and you >> know what happens then..."if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, >> it's old". Next, a happy salesman! > > I *am* in the US - just in the middle of nowhere, so it's at least a Oh, somehow I had in my head that you were in the UK. I blame lack of caffeine. > couple of hours to civilization in any direction and the miles pile up > fast. The low population density and lack of any kind of mandatory > vehicle inspection means that there's an awful lot of old iron on the > roads that would have been sent to the junkyard years ago elsewhere. ...which is probably how things should be anyway, but we're well-trained to be obsessed with "new". *spit* >> (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) > > What model? I think the only Saab's I've seen in the US are more recent > ones (I'm sure some of the '80s ones made it over here too, not so sure > about anything earlier) It's a 1999 model 9-3, turbocharged convertible with a manual transmisstion. The little bugger really MOVES, and it was cheap. Life is good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 18 16:55:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:55:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <29239C12953341179BA0329A8D5942B9@tababook> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <29239C12953341179BA0329A8D5942B9@tababook> Message-ID: <50807AEC.60103@neurotica.com> On 10/18/2012 04:01 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> -Dave >> (who just yesterday purchased a Saab with 130K miles on it!) > > \o/ > > (photos, or else...) I will take some pics soon. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 16:56:15 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:56:15 -0400 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <3F82BCE5-F5B5-4647-9959-32396FF9DC07@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <3F82BCE5-F5B5-4647-9959-32396FF9DC07@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:36 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 17, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Speaking for myself only, soldering TQFP isn't terribly difficult--I could almost solder an 0.8 mm lead pitch QFP without my glasses. 0.5 mm for me requires a binocular loupe and careful checking with an inspection microscope. But I've done a lot of it and had zero casualties, much to my surprise. > > Alas, all the QFPs I want to use for my current project are > 0.5mm pitch. :-\ But my eyes aren't so bad. And I have an OK > iron now, which should do a fair sight better than my old 30W > Weller firestarter. I've done 0.5mm QFP manually with 100% success in the past (using the flux-and-drag technique) but it's very, very nice to have magnification for inspection for peace of mind. I managed to score a *free* used Brazilian knockoff Zeiss stereo microscope meant to be wall-mounted for a doctor's office and it's been really, really nice (in the past, I've borrowed a dissection microscope). Mine came with the light pipe and external light source, but if it gives me grief, I'll be building an LED ring. One thing I _don't_ like about it: the focal length off the bottom of the scope is 200mm. Yes. 200mm. Over 7". It means that I can barely reach items in the focal plane when I'm staring down the eyepieces. Fine for inspection. Not as fine for assembly. Optics are *not* my forte (worst grade I got in any science class in college was the physics class where optics were heavily featured), so I can follow instructions and install anything but I'm not likely to be able to calculate what needs to be changed. I'm definitely on the cusp of needing magnification for this fine-pitch work, so I'm happy I have this resource. Oh... I mentioned it's a wall-mount. I didn't get the wall plate or the arm, just the scope. I ended up hacking an office stool (with telescoping base) and replacing the chair back with an adapter plate so the scope mount fits into that and the subject sits on a wooden plate where the chair user used to sit. It's portable and since the chair was tossed out from upholstery wear, free! -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 18 17:05:44 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:05:44 -0600 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <50807AD9.7030001@neurotica.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> <50807AD9.7030001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50807D38.50903@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/18/2012 3:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's a 1999 model 9-3, turbocharged convertible with a manual > transmisstion. The little bugger really MOVES, and it was cheap. Life > is good. A few hundred pounds of Big Iron will slow that down. Then life will be better. > -Dave > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 17:07:13 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:07:13 -0400 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:56 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > 300k seems to be about the magic number of miles where major failures that > can't be fixed with a few cheap parts and/or spit and baling wire occur :-) > It's not so common to see vehicles over that number. 228K on my 1998 Saturn Wagon (as seen at NYC Maker Faires and VCFs in the mid-west and NJ). Gonna be sad to have to find a replacement (hauls stuff, rear hatch, over 5'8" of rear storage, manual transmission, 38-42mpg on the highway). Not as roomy as a Microbus (in which I've transported two H960 racks simultaneously including the Unibus PDP-11 gear that came out of the racks) but gets better milaege and has heat in the winter. -ethan From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 18:18:41 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:18:41 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <507F624C.30403@sydex.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> <507F624C.30403@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50808E51.4020502@gmail.com> On 10/17/2012 6:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/17/2012 05:49 PM, ben wrote: >> On 10/17/2012 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Back in the 80's, what cpu's were for S100 boards other than Z80's >> ,8080's and 8085's? > > You name it. 68K, 8086, 8088, 32016. ISTR a 6502 S100 board... Was > there a Transputer board for S100? > > --Chuck > > Any idea what CPU this guy would have ? 68000 ? http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/sys/3348054284.html (in case it gets deleted) 1979 WICAT S100 Computer - excellant running condition $ (2) 256K Bytes RAM add on memory cards (756K Bytes total RAM) (2) 8" floppy disks in separate chassis unit (4) serial ports, coax cable ethernet connector (2) unopened boxes of original IBM 8" floppy disks (20) disks total (2) boxes of 8" floppy disks containing the APL and MCS OS (2) Human Designed Systems 8kb memory APL Serial Terminals Liberty Serial Terminal Epson MX-80 printer (serial port) (not the best cosmetically but works) Operating System : WICAT Multiuser Control System Operating System (MCS) (looks like VMS) Languages : The Computer Company APL Interpreter and PASCAL Compiler Boxes of new and used serial connectors and rolls of new and used serial ribbon cables Serial printer buffer box with serial cabling Serial connector break-out box MCS OS and APL manuals --- Multibus card cage - excellant working condition $ Build your dream multi-bus computer around this excellant working condition plenty of boards of all kinds for this bus available on ebay (8+) slots Please contact for additional information From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 18 18:21:41 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:21:41 -0400 Subject: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: <201210181903.q9IJ3hg3031261@billy.ezwind.net> References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <507AC9F1.1070103@gmail.com> <201210141655.MAA10000@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507AF5FE.6070004@telegraphics.com.au> <20121014103757.T57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B117A.3060905@telegraphics.com.au> <507B2F7E.2050507@neurotica.com> <3DFDBF8944264B45A9641EF5763D7402@hd2600xt6a04f7> <20121014155004.E57246@shell.lmi.net> <20121014174808.I57246@shell.lmi.net> <507B6B0F.6080108@jetnet.ab.ca> <201210150206.WAA12348@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <507C1062.5000707@dunnington.plus.com> <20121015100550.P89883@shell.lmi.net> <201210181903.q9IJ3hg3031261@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <50808F05.2050303@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/10/12 2:54 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 12:10 PM 10/15/2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I met Eldridge Cleaver twice. When he was organizing the Black Panthers >> at Merritt College, and then again, when he was scavenging recyclables for >> a living. > > I spent an afternoon with him once, too. He had some interesting > stories from the old days. > > On-topic, I'd have a hard time finding the time to fix all the broken > LCD monitors I could be given. Disassembly, finding the right cap, > then reassembly - could take a long time, mental energy, and bench space. About 40 minutes each. Now think about the cost of the non-renewable materials and fully working components (99% of the monitor) hitting landfill by the millions. Hour after hour, day after day. --Toby > It's easier to only accept the working ones. > > - John > > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Oct 18 18:29:22 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:29:22 -0700 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold In-Reply-To: <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> I did a google search for more information on PDP1 music On 10/18/2012 11:36 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Did the chm ever record any of their pdp-1 tunes? That was fun to hear while there. I can't remember the gentlemans name who was on that team there but he was also working on some additional tunes at the time (I guess that was quite a few years ago though). Original links from record on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170923504018 Here is the link to the song as well. http://ampnoise.com/mp3/MusicOnThePDP-1X_Pinafore.mp3 Dan Smith's site: http://www.dpbsmith.com/pdp1music/ Another site with Dan Smith music http://audio.textfiles.com/sounds/PDPMUSIC/ Some youtube videos: http://youtu.be/_RvwJ79BAwg http://youtu.be/9qMrmgo1HnQ http://youtu.be/7bzWnaH-0sg http://youtu.be/BHTa3EfzrNE CHM page with two songs: http://pdp-1.computerhistory.org/pdp-1/index.php?f=theme&s=4&ss=5 Someone made a page with instructions on how to make your own music, with simh: http://www.scrapheap.net/pdp1/ I suspect some here have had a hand in this, but I didn't see anyone in particular to credit, thanks for the pages. I figured if I wanted this collected somewhere, maybe others would be interested too. Jim From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Oct 18 18:35:53 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:35:53 -0400 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection In-Reply-To: <61d7556b-5178-43b1-a80f-d2feb4d89af7@email.android.com> References: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> <61d7556b-5178-43b1-a80f-d2feb4d89af7@email.android.com> Message-ID: <2db7d1cf-ee75-4549-8624-57f89f9d251c@email.android.com> While realizing that I'm both top posting and replying to myself, I'm a lucky man today. I found two of the adapters new in box for about $100 total on craigslist. They are already on their way. I'm lucky!! Keith Keith M wrote: >I could justify a $75 price tag maybe.... I suppose I could set up some >ebay alerts on those part numbers but I have a feeling it would take >awhile to show up. > >Building one seems hard and might net me little discount after I'm said >and done. > >Thanks >Keith > >Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> >> It depends on how much you want to wait, and/or how much you want to > >>spend/work >> >> You can do an adapter, but it is some trouble and work >> >> Or you can wait it appear on Ebay :o) >> >>--- >>Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >>Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Keith Monahan" >>To: >>Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 2:02 AM >>Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection >> >> >>> I've got the need to connect a logic analyzer to a socketed 84-pin >>PLCC >>> IC. The test clips I'm familiar with won't attach properly because >>they >>> expect a soldered chip instead. >>> >>> Besides removing the socket and resoldering the IC directly to the >>PCB and >>> using a traditional test clip (which are affordable), are there any >>other >>> plug-and-play solutions? >>> >>> I've found these >>> >>> >>http://www.emulation.com/catalog/off-the-shelf_solutions/logic_analyzer-scope_adapters/socketable_bug_katchers/plcc/ >>> >>> >>http://www.emulation.com/cgi-cfm/insert_quantity.cfm?part_number=BC4-84-PCC5-0000 >> >>> ($308) >>> >>> and >>> >>> http://www.logicalsys.com/painfo-vpasp-vb.asp?adapter=pa84-pp ($185 >>US) >>> >>> which seem pretty darn cool, but also pretty darn expensive. >>> >>> The PCB is almost 30 years old, for whatever that's worth. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Keith > >-- >Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Oct 18 18:45:51 2012 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 00:45:51 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508094AF.50902@mac.com> On 17/10/2012 16:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > You don't have many American cars over there, I guess. :-/ People over > here are well-trained to thinkt hat 80K is "high mileage", and you > know what happens then..."if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, > it's old". Next, a happy salesman! -Dave (who just yesterday purchased > a Saab with 130K miles on it!) I'm in the UK and drive an American car.. A Dodge Avenger Diesel.. At the peak of Chrysler's money wasting days they decided to have a go at the European market but failed miserably.. The result is the resale values of Chrysler/Dodge fell through the floor and are really cheap now. Dodge's are no longer sold and Chrysler sell rebadged FIAT/Lancia's. Yes, we had diesel Chrysler/Dodge cars, a mating with Volkswagen or Mercedes Diesel engines.. Previously i had an 07 SAAB 9-3 Diesel.. Lovely car.... Roger From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 18 19:32:41 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 17:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old computer music was (Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold) In-Reply-To: <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1350606761.77410.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: jim s > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Friday, 19 October 2012 10:29 AM > Subject: Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold > > I did a google search for more information on PDP1 music > On 10/18/2012 11:36 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>??Did the chm ever record any of their pdp-1 tunes?? That was fun to hear > while there. I can't remember the gentlemans name who was on that team there > but he was also working on some additional tunes at the time (I guess that was > quite a few years ago though). > Original links from record on ebay First Philadelphia Computer Music Festival at http://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/ wikipedia has a history section on computer music I wish these recording were in flac From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 18 19:39:51 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:39:51 -0600 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080A157.90400@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Come again? Other than outgas like mad,, what is that supposed to do? Peeling scotch tape from the roll emits both visible light and X-rays. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/28/science/28xray.html?_r=0 From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Oct 18 19:40:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:40:21 -0600 Subject: PDP1 Music / Record sold In-Reply-To: <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <5080A175.70704@brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > Someone made a page with instructions on how to make your own music, > with simh: > > http://www.scrapheap.net/pdp1/ > "Someone" is Ken Sumrall, member of the CHM PDP-1 Restoration Team. (Not Ken Sumrall of Ken Sumrall Ministries Inc.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 18 20:23:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:23:25 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <50808E51.4020502@gmail.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> <507F624C.30403@sydex.com> <50808E51.4020502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5080AB8D.5060101@sydex.com> On 10/18/2012 04:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Any idea what CPU this guy would have ? 68000 ? > > http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/sys/3348054284.html Given the software, I'd say 68K. Wicat also offered a system IIRC using the WD Pascal Microengine, but the date on this says 68K and probably 1980, not 79. And it is most definitely NOT S-100--Wicat used Multibus. Now there was a bus you could find almost anything on. --Chuck From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 20:32:03 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:32:03 -0700 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <5080AB8D.5060101@sydex.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <507F520B.20601@jetnet.ab.ca> <507F624C.30403@sydex.com> <50808E51.4020502@gmail.com> <5080AB8D.5060101@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5080AD93.6020304@gmail.com> On 10/18/2012 6:23 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/18/2012 04:18 PM, mc68010 wrote: > >> Any idea what CPU this guy would have ? 68000 ? >> >> http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/sys/3348054284.html > > Given the software, I'd say 68K. Wicat also offered a system IIRC > using the WD Pascal Microengine, but the date on this says 68K and > probably 1980, not 79. > > And it is most definitely NOT S-100--Wicat used Multibus. Now there > was a bus you could find almost anything on. > > --Chuck > > I had wondered since he says he has a spare multibus backplane too. Sounds like a cool system but, Utah is too far for me to drive and that would cost a fortune to ship. He also doesn't say what he wants for it. Probably too much. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 18 20:40:31 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:40:31 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 49 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080AF8F.7010709@pico-systems.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Agree on the stereo microscope (dissection microscope). I find that the > CCFL ring lights made for cars and motorcycles are cheap and give much > more intense and even (shadowless) light. Yes, they are almost perfect. BUT, they are usually too big in diameter. By custom making one with LEDs, you can fit it to be completely snug to the microscope body and sit up against the sides of the microscope, so it is as far out of the way as possible. We got a ringlight with a new Chinese scope at work, but it hung below the bottom of the scope and was over an inch wider than the scope itself, so I replaced it with my own LED ring light. > For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear > nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the > polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can > get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's > nearly foolproof. > I'm doing 0.4mm pitch chips, and have excellent alignment, also, with my method. Whatever works for you. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 18 21:00:44 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:00:44 -0500 Subject: fine pitch soldering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5080B44C.9070407@pico-systems.com> M From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: fine pitch soldering Message-ID: <508063F0.2080503 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 10/18/2012 12:21 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > I have been doing fine-pitch soldering for a long time. I do stuff as > > fine as > > 0.4mm lead pitch, which is a bit of a pain. The bulk of stuff I now make > > with a pick and place machine and a reflow oven (converted toaster oven > > with thermocouple ramp-and-soak controller). > What type of pick-and-place system do you have? I'm looking to move in that direction. I got a VERY good deal on a Philips CSM-84. This model can hold up to about 55 8-mm feeders (capacity reduced for larger sizes) and has a vibratory feeder option and a large chip alignment station. For small chips and passives it aligns with mechanical jaws on the head. it has 3 heads, I have 2 set up with the jaws and one with no jaws to use the separate aligner. These machines are also available with vision, mine does not have that feature. It is a BIG machine, 5 x 7 feet, and needs compressed air and a fair amount of power. it is single-phase, however. It weighs about 1600 Lbs. Note that with all these machines, the feeders will probably cost more than the used machine. The CSM-84 is a VERY flexible machine, and easy to program. (The vision system needs a LOT more programming than the placement section, but once you have programmed all the parts you use, the vision doesn't need much attention.) So, I do everything from 0805 up to 30mm FPGAs with it. It is marginal with .65mm pitch parts, but does great with SO chips and all passives. If you look at other machines, check carefully about the range of parts they handle, and the consumables. Some of these machines eat several vacuum nozzles at $100 a pop every shift, and guarantee a broken nozzle on any mis-pick or tumbled part, not to mention actual crashes. The CSM is VERY robust in comparison, uses steel nozzles and can survive most crashes without much damage. Having the experience with mine, I might have been better off to get a machine with vision instead of the jaw alignment, but it all depends on the kind of stuff you do. The later machines are generally marked with a /// after the model to indicate a later computer and brushless servo motors. There is the CSM-84 VZ which has vision and a Z axis servo, and the VANE which has vision and the auto nozzle exchanger. Not so sure about the ANE system, it uses different nozzles, and they look more fragile. I have made a big nozzle for FPGAs with a lathe and mill for my machine. I paid about $3600 for my machine including shipping and about 50 feeders. It cost me more than that to have a double door installed on my basement to get it inside! Obviously, I had a motivated seller who needed to get this machine off his floor to make room for new machines already in transit. Every day I communicated with him, the deal got sweeter. First, just the machine, then some feeders, then lots more feeders (all he had) then a box of spare parts. One thing is to get a machine that is highly regarded by the community (there are some REAL lemons out there) and be sure to get the manuals including the service manuals, because something WILL go wrong on these older machines. They ARE complex, mine has over 50 sensors and about 25 actuators. Jon cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: fine pitch soldering (Chuck Guzis) > 2. Re: It lives! (Liam Proven) > 3. Re: It lives! (Ethan Dicks) > 4. Re: It lives! (David Riley) > 5. Re: It lives! (barythrin at gmail.com) > 6. Re: It lives! (Shoppa, Tim) > 7. Re: It lives! (John Many Jars) > 8. Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold (barythrin at gmail.com) > 9. Re: It lives! (David Brownlee) > 10. RE: Skipware level, late 2012 (John Foust) > 11. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire) > 12. Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: > Skipware level, late 2012 (John Foust) > 13. Re: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? (Eric Smith) > 14. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire) > 15. Re: fine pitch soldering (Ryan Brooks) > 16. Re: fine pitch soldering (Chuck Guzis) > 17. Re: fine pitch soldering (Dave McGuire) > 18. Re: Desoldering Pump (Paul Anderson) > 19. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Tony Duell) > 20. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Paul Anderson) > 21. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Dave McGuire) > 22. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Dave McGuire) > 23. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (Ethan Dicks) > 24. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (ben) > 25. Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? (Ethan Dicks) > 26. Re: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board (mc68010) > 27. Re: Dead LCD monitor? - replace $2 worth of caps - Re: > Skipware level, late 2012 (Toby Thain) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:26:32 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: fine pitch soldering > Message-ID: <50803BC8.3080004 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 10/18/2012 09:21 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > >> The MOST important thing is a >> stereo zoom microscope with a long working distance. A working >> distance of 2-3" is necessary to get your hands and a soldering iron >> under it. A ring light can be made from a ring of PC board material >> that fits around the snout of the microscope. Carve a ring in the >> copper of the PCB so it becomes two concentric rings. Use a 12 V >> DC wall-wart power supply and 8 while LEDs, with about 1 K Ohm >> series resistors. >> > > Agree on the stereo microscope (dissection microscope). I find that the > CCFL ring lights made for cars and motorcycles are cheap and give much > more intense and even (shadowless) light. Typical diameter is about 100 > mm and all seem to come with mounting clips or tabs. You can also get > them in LED, but I find the light from a white CCFL much easier on the > eyes. Cheap inverters are available to run the CCFL lamps. I use the > microscope for initial positioning and completed inspection and prefer > to use a binocular loupe during the actual soldering. > > >> Solder braid can be used to remove excess solder bridging the >> leads, which WILL happen frequently. For big, high-density >> chips, this is my procedure: First, put a tiny dab of solder >> on 2 corner pads. Align the chip with the pads, and solder >> the corners that have the extra solder. >> > > For large TQFPs, I anchor the chip body to the PCB with a dab of clear > nail polish, using the microscope for accurate positioning. Once the > polish has set, I proceed with the corner soldering. I find that I can > get extremely good registration this way. It's not fast, but it's > nearly foolproof. > > FWIW, > Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 18:34:58 +0100 > From: Liam Proven > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Subject: Re: It lives! > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > On 18 October 2012 15:41, Francois Dion wrote: > >> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >> >> >> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >> >> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >> Just a simple screenshot to start with... >> > > I was going to guess Apple II or that era from the BASIC prompt of ] > but not given the later hints... > > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Oct 18 21:37:09 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 22:37:09 -0400 Subject: old computer music was (Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold) In-Reply-To: <1350606761.77410.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> <1350606761.77410.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > > First Philadelphia Computer Music Festival at > http://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/ > > wikipedia has a history section on computer music > > I wish these recording were in flac > I have that album. When I get my record player working again I'll rip it in FLAC if you'd like. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Thu Oct 18 21:53:55 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 19:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: old computer music was (Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold) In-Reply-To: References: <508030A3.8080500@pico-systems.com> <866811719-1350585413-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1662289430-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508090D2.5070004@jwsss.com> <1350606761.77410.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1350615235.87027.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Jason McBrien > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Friday, 19 October 2012 1:37 PM > Subject: Re: old computer music was (Re: PDP1 Music / Record sold) > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:32 PM, Tom Sparks > wrote: > >> >> First Philadelphia Computer Music Festival at >> http://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/ >> >> wikipedia has a history section on computer music >> >> I wish these recording were in flac yes please >> > > I have that album. When I get my record player working again I'll rip it in > FLAC if you'd like. > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Oct 19 00:49:13 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:49:13 +0100 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> Weren?t there some Apple clones produced in China / Eastern Europe? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: 18 October 2012 19:13 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: It lives! > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... It's Applesoft, but says "PRESS RESET" at the top, so.... an Apple II (not plus) with Applesoft language card? Or upgraded with Applesoft ROMs? Personally I like Integer Basic :-) Tim. From cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net Thu Oct 18 13:02:37 2012 From: cpuser_stefskog at bredband.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:02:37 +0200 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter =?UTF-8?Q?=31=30=30=3F=20Or=20?= =?UTF-8?Q?a=20DEREP=3F?= In-Reply-To: <20121018091045.A17721@shell.lmi.net> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> <20121018091045.A17721@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1cbbf3f3618880b3a732cc0f21c96038@imap.bredband.net> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:15:48 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >> What model? I think the only Saab's I've seen in the US are more recent >> ones (I'm sure some of the '80s ones made it over here too, not so sure >> about anything earlier) > > 40 years ago, there used to be some Saabs in USA with three cylinders and > drivers scrambling under the dash to disenage the freewheeling device. > If it you mean that the car was brand new in 1972 so.... njaaaaa noo SAAB replaced the two-stroke engine in the 1967 manufacturing year with a 4-cylinder V-engine from Ford Taunus. Check out wikipedia regarind SAAB Sonett. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Oct 18 14:50:59 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 21:50:59 +0200 Subject: UCSD-P for the WD-900 ? In-Reply-To: <50805304.7080605@brouhaha.com> References: <507FCAF4.6000808@bluewin.ch> <507FE6F1.4050109@iais.fraunhofer.de> <50805304.7080605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <50805DA3.1010605@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 18.10.2012 21:05, schrieb Eric Smith: > Holger Veit wrote: >> I am also looking for such images, as well as the boot prom >> listing/dump (not the MICROM >> contents - well, could be fun as well) beyond the stuff that can >> found on bitsavers. > > What boot PROM? Unless yours is different than mine, It has no boot > PROM, nor a place to install one if you wanted to. > > Looks as if there are several incarnations of "the Pascal Microengine", or rather, a boot prom is likely on the winchester controller, not the floppy-only main board. The WD9693_PasIII_OSref_Jul82.pdf describes a boot PROM at 0xfe00-0xffff, namely when talking about "SB1600 PROM" and "ME1600 PROM" on pages H-1/H2. In absence of such a PROM, it's apparently the microcode that issues the few commands to setup DMAC/FDC for autoloading. -- Holger From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 19 01:18:04 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 23:18:04 -0700 Subject: System for sale on Epay, Listed as Northstar Horizon is actually Ferguson board Message-ID: <5080F09C.3090406@jwsss.com> This is an auction for a system on Ebay which might be interesting. It is listed as a "Northstar Horizon" but has what appears to be a single board system marked Ferguson. That would probably not be from Northstar. Also it is built up with 8" floppies which is even less related to Northstar. it appears he got a pile for a Northstar system with the Ferguson homebuilt which is in an Incoterm box which holds the floppies. There is a listing for a bigboard on bitsavers which is probably for this system. http://www.ebay.com/itm/400301360595 Price may actually be something if anyone feels a burning need for a Ferguson board, but I think its high for an ordinary Horizon. Too bad there is a missing Horizon. From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 06:04:42 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:04:42 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. > > > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > Francois > > > -- > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 06:37:07 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:37:07 -0400 Subject: System for sale on Epay, Listed as Northstar Horizon is actually Ferguson board In-Reply-To: <5080F09C.3090406@jwsss.com> References: <5080F09C.3090406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50813B63.6030301@verizon.net> On 10/19/2012 02:18 AM, jim s wrote: > This is an auction for a system on Ebay which might be interesting. > > It is listed as a "Northstar Horizon" but has what appears to be a > single board system marked Ferguson. That would probably not be from > Northstar. > > Also it is built up with 8" floppies which is even less related to > Northstar. > > it appears he got a pile for a Northstar system with the Ferguson > homebuilt which is in an Incoterm box which holds the floppies. There > is a listing for a bigboard on bitsavers which is probably for this > system. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/400301360595 > > Price may actually be something if anyone feels a burning need for a > Ferguson board, but I think its high for an ordinary Horizon. Too bad > there is a missing Horizon. > > > > > Northstar never had a sing board system. that is not a northstar, nor can the NS controller be easily used with an 8" floppy being 10sector hard sector format with connector/cable pinout for 5.25" floppies. Ferguson did make a single board that was roughly similar to the Xerox Bigboard. that worked with 8" floppies but could be used with smaller. I have many examples of NS* Horizon and Advantage systems. Horizon was S100, minimal was the S100 backplane that also had the IO and three boards (CPU, Ram, Floppy) and the case had two holes for vertically mounted 5.25" full height floppies. Allison From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 07:15:21 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 12:15:21 +0000 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> Message-ID: <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think there were "a lot". Lots of unlicensed clones in Taiwan from what I heard. Legit clones (again I think) like Franklin Ace and Laser were around. I think Apple got pissy though and tried to restrict the clone market. -----Original Message----- From: "Rod Smallwood" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:49:13 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: It lives! Weren?t there some Apple clones produced in China / Eastern Europe? Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: 18 October 2012 19:13 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: It lives! > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... It's Applesoft, but says "PRESS RESET" at the top, so.... an Apple II (not plus) with Applesoft language card? Or upgraded with Applesoft ROMs? Personally I like Integer Basic :-) Tim. From jon at jonworld.com Fri Oct 19 07:30:49 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:30:49 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:15 AM, wrote: > I think there were "a lot". Lots of unlicensed clones in Taiwan from what I heard. > > Legit clones (again I think) like Franklin Ace and Laser were around. I think Apple got pissy though and tried to restrict the clone market. I'm wondering if it is some kind of Multibus or S-100 6502-based system with Apple ROMs? Is that even possible? From db at db.net Fri Oct 19 07:45:55 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:45:55 -0500 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121019124555.GA85948@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 07:04:42AM -0400, Francois Dion wrote: > The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html Oh my. http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ac00239a855 http://tinyurl.com/9zela85 http://search.informit.com.au/documentSummary;dn=482239336346639;res=IELENG > > Francois > > > -- > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now > > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. > > > > > > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > > > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > > > > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > > Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > > > Francois > > > > > > -- > > > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From db at db.net Fri Oct 19 07:53:10 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:53:10 -0500 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121019125310.GA86115@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 07:04:42AM -0400, Francois Dion wrote: > The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html http://www.macgeek.org/museum/bhapple2plus/page02.html I know, it's not the one. However, I am finding it interesting just how many Apple ]['s were grafted into gear. > > Francois > > > -- > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now > > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. > > > > > > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > > > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > > > > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > > Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > > > Francois > > > > > > -- > > > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 19 08:00:48 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 06:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: System for sale on Epay, Listed as Northstar Horizon is actually Ferguson board In-Reply-To: <5080F09C.3090406@jwsss.com> References: <5080F09C.3090406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > This is an auction for a system on Ebay which might be interesting. > > It is listed as a "Northstar Horizon" but has what appears to be a single > board system marked Ferguson. That would probably not be from Northstar. > > Also it is built up with 8" floppies which is even less related to Northstar. > > it appears he got a pile for a Northstar system with the Ferguson homebuilt > which is in an Incoterm box which holds the floppies. There is a listing for > a bigboard on bitsavers which is probably for this system. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/400301360595 > > Price may actually be something if anyone feels a burning need for a Ferguson > board, but I think its high for an ordinary Horizon. Too bad there is a > missing Horizon. That's a Ferguson Big Board for sure. *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From auringer at tds.net Fri Oct 19 08:53:22 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:53:22 -0500 Subject: Interesting analog data system Message-ID: I ran across this auction that I thought someone here might be interested in. It is a paper punch for edge notched data storage research cards. The system is described here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge-notched_card http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261115271862&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Oct 19 09:47:00 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 14:47:00 +0000 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522D178@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html To be a little more specific about my guess... Rev 0 Apple II, with lower-case hardware keyboard mod (e.g. not the shift-key-to-game-port wire), lower-case graphics mod, and either Language card or Applesoft-ROM-on-motherboard. I ought to be able to look at the chroma section of the motherboard and see if it really is Rev 0. I'm still racking my brain, figuring out whether the "PRESS RESET" comes from a different F8 ROM on the motherboard, or a different F8 ROM on the language card, or something else. I know I've seen that before but cannot remember the permutation. Could it come from the lower case mod? Oh, now I don't know where it could come from anymore at all! Out of curiosity... if it has INTBASIC on the motherboard, does it have the "Programmers Aid" ROM? Had some Hi-Res and sound callable routines etc? Haven't seen that in ages and ages. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 19 09:51:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:51:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Saab (Was:Re: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <1cbbf3f3618880b3a732cc0f21c96038@imap.bredband.net> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> <20121018091045.A17721@shell.lmi.net> <1cbbf3f3618880b3a732cc0f21c96038@imap.bredband.net> Message-ID: <20121019073852.B47307@shell.lmi.net> > >> What model? I think the only Saab's I've seen in the US are more recent > >> ones (I'm sure some of the '80s ones made it over here too, not so sure > >> about anything earlier) > > 40 years ago, there used to be some Saabs in USA with three cylinders and > > drivers scrambling under the dash to disenage the freewheeling device. On Thu, 18 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > If it you mean that the car was brand new in 1972 so.... njaaaaa noo > SAAB replaced the two-stroke engine in the 1967 manufacturing year with > a 4-cylinder V-engine from Ford Taunus. Check out wikipedia regarind > SAAB Sonett. NEW cars??!? No, I Only knew about 5+ year old cars, that you saw on the road. (with the driver scrambling under the dash, trying to disengage the freewheeling) Instead of 40, I should have said 45 They were FUN! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 19 10:02:33 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:02:33 -0700 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> On 10/19/2012 4:04 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html > > Francois > ED LAB microcomputer training systems with a Franklin motherboard and video card. Bob > -- > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion wrote: >> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >> >> >> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >> >> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >> Just a simple screenshot to start with... >> >> Francois >> >> >> -- >> >> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 19 10:18:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:18:20 -0700 Subject: Anyone want a DEC Letterwriter 100? Or a DEREP? In-Reply-To: <1cbbf3f3618880b3a732cc0f21c96038@imap.bredband.net> References: <507C428E.5010409@neurotica.com> <507EB724.60002@gmail.com> <507ED4F8.9080205@neurotica.com> <507FFC7F.3020907@gmail.com> <20121018091045.A17721@shell.lmi.net> <1cbbf3f3618880b3a732cc0f21c96038@imap.bredband.net> Message-ID: <50816F3C.6080606@sydex.com> On 10/18/2012 11:02 AM, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > If it you mean that the car was brand new in 1972 so.... njaaaaa noo > > SAAB replaced the two-stroke engine in the 1967 manufacturing year with > a 4-cylinder > V-engine from Ford Taunus. A friend owned one of those two-stroke Saabs. As a joke, he'd have us push-start it in reverse... --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 10:19:12 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 08:19:12 -0700 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> References: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Oct 19, 2012 8:05 AM, "Bob Rosenbloom" wrote: > > ED LAB microcomputer training systems with a Franklin motherboard and video card. > > > Bob Oh, this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/200832204275 From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 11:11:06 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:11:06 -0700 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection In-Reply-To: <2db7d1cf-ee75-4549-8624-57f89f9d251c@email.android.com> References: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> <61d7556b-5178-43b1-a80f-d2feb4d89af7@email.android.com> <2db7d1cf-ee75-4549-8624-57f89f9d251c@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Keith M wrote: > While realizing that I'm both top posting and replying to myself, I'm a lucky man today. I found two of the adapters new in box for about $100 total on craigslist. They are already on their way. I'm lucky!! > > Keith Seems like an unlikely item to turn up on craigslist just when you happen to need one. Did you find it locally or were you searching locations everywhere? -Glen From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:13:20 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 16:13:20 -0400 Subject: Quadra 700 buttons? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 3:11 PM, David Riley wrote: > So does anyone happen to know... what kind of buttons were used for the > Q700 (also probably the IIci and IIcx, somewhat less unlikely), > or know a good way to find buttons with precise mechanical > dimensions? I've seen a couple of styles of right-angle pushbuttons, but for the smaller ones (6mm?), the eject switch of a CD-ROM drive seems to commonly be of this type. My recollection is that Apple used "fatter" buttons (8mm? 10mm?) so that might not be a match. -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 15:41:14 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 16:41:14 -0400 Subject: Quadra 700 buttons? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8195C649-BEAD-477D-A48D-AB7F1CC0CAE7@gmail.com> On Oct 19, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 3:11 PM, David Riley wrote: >> So does anyone happen to know... what kind of buttons were used for the >> Q700 (also probably the IIci and IIcx, somewhat less unlikely), >> or know a good way to find buttons with precise mechanical >> dimensions? > > I've seen a couple of styles of right-angle pushbuttons, but for the > smaller ones (6mm?), the eject switch of a CD-ROM drive seems to > commonly be of this type. My recollection is that Apple used "fatter" > buttons (8mm? 10mm?) so that might not be a match. Ha, how timely! I actually ended up answering my own question just a few days ago. If anyone's looking for the answer, it turns out that Omron's B3F-5000 series is a nearly perfect match. The right-angle buttons are really just horizontal buttons mounted in a plastic stand and with the pins on one side bent out; the B3F-5000 matches the plastic stud pattern on the back perfectly. I just had to bend out the pins to match the right-angle orientation. I swapped out the buttons and finally managed to dig the last corroded metal out of the holes for the battery holder and replaced that just the other night; now I have a perfectly working Quadra 700 which I had nearly given up for totally dead a few weeks ago. I wouldn't actually have cared that much about the buttons except for the fact that the Q700's ADB controller doesn't have direct lines to NMI and reset like the later models do, so there's no way to force a reset or interrupt with the keyboard. All the same, it's nice to have the machine operating as intended. They're also the "long life" switch, intended for 10 million actuations, so I should be good for a while (and at 62.7 cents each on Digi-Key, it made sense to get 10). - Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 16:13:53 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 22:13:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microscopes In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 12 05:56:15 pm Message-ID: > I managed to score a *free* used Brazilian knockoff Zeiss stereo > microscope meant to be wall-mounted for a doctor's office and it's > been really, really nice (in the past, I've borrowed a dissection > microscope). Nice... A good stereo microscope is soemthing I intend getting sometime. I did fid a little stero magnifier (a mini-microscope) made by Beck of London for a few pounds in a charity shop. Of course it's now here :-) Soem years ago a freidn of mine said he and an old microscope that he didn;'t want. I was expecting at best a Russian thing (which, to be fair, are quite reasoanble). I was amazed when he gave me a genuine Zeiss microscope with 3 objectives in the turret. It needed a minor electrical repair to the lamp PSU, but that was hardly a problem. It's not stereo, thoug. It does have binocular eyepieces, but with a beam splitter from one objective. SO it's less tiring to use than a single eyepiece model, but you don't get 3D images. It's stil la very nice instruemnt -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 19 16:33:19 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 14:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classilla 9.3.1 Message-ID: <201210192133.q9JLXJWt16384150@floodgap.com> For those of you who like giving your Mac OS 8.6 or 9 machines a little exercise, I'm making an interim release of Classilla with the security rollup about 1/3rd done: http://www.classilla.org/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- On the Internet, everyone suspects you're a dog. -- Kristen Kelleher ------- From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Oct 19 16:43:44 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 17:43:44 -0400 Subject: socketed 84-pin PLCC logic analyzer connection In-Reply-To: References: <507E3BCF.4090607@verizon.net> <7009649A810445D6924C1C6FB31B0436@tababook> <61d7556b-5178-43b1-a80f-d2feb4d89af7@email.android.com> <2db7d1cf-ee75-4549-8624-57f89f9d251c@email.android.com> Message-ID: <5081C990.3050008@verizon.net> On 10/19/2012 12:11 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Seems like an unlikely item to turn up on craigslist just when you > happen to need one. Did you find it locally or were you searching > locations everywhere? -Glen Glen, Yes, indeed an unlikely item. I envisioned waiting months and/or years before an affordable one came around. I actually just googled the part numbers and I saw a craigslist post from September that was of course expired. I said, "darn, so close." Then I figured that it might be a hard time to sell these items, so I navigated to the city page and searched. Voila. Same guy reposted the offer. Emailed him, exchanged info, did some quick background checks to make sure the name/address/phone number/email/paypal matched, made sense, etc. And then pre-paid via paypal. Of course I was paranoid with using CL. The craiglist was not from my city.... it wasn't local, but instead a few states away. I'm not sure the city mattered.......the fact that it was in the US, reachable by relatively cheap mail services, etc..... I never really considered CL a valuable source for this type of stuff.....maybe I was wrong. I was definitely wrong this time. And lucky. Thanks Keith From mcquiggi at me.com Fri Oct 19 13:16:20 2012 From: mcquiggi at me.com (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: Back from the dead - Timex Sinclair ZX80/81 Message-ID: <4305484D-81A0-4119-A0B2-A76F1B2C880E@me.com> Hmmm that's what it looks like to me. Kevin Sent from my iPad From tingox at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 14:41:30 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:41:30 +0200 Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm in too! Happy! :-) Twelve backers already. I really hope this project happens. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 17:41:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 15:41:17 -0700 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> This is sort of neat but, too bad it's missing all the important stuff. http://www.ebay.com/itm/121002431226 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 19 18:37:30 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 16:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kickstarter project for a new run of P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2012, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > I'm in too! Happy! :-) > > Twelve backers already. I really hope this project happens. Thanks! Those of you sitting on the fence, go for it! I'm getting a bit nervous that there might not be enough backers. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From g-wright at att.net Fri Oct 19 18:44:55 2012 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 16:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 2) HP 2345a terimal servers. Kent, Wa. USA Message-ID: <1350690295.52019.YahooMailRC@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Free, Pick up in Kent WA. - Jerry From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:28:53 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:28:53 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> References: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: You have to tell me how you figured it out from the 4th clue. Do you own one, or did you repair one in the past? CES Industries is the brand, in case anybody was wondering. LC (on this list? posted and identified correctly the motherboard. Not just any Franklin board, but one from a Franklin ACE 1000. The 4th clue made that very obvious. Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - rasberry-python.blogspot.com On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 10/19/2012 4:04 AM, Francois Dion wrote: >> >> The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html >> >> Francois >> > > ED LAB microcomputer training systems with a Franklin motherboard and video > card. > > > Bob > > >> -- >> >> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com >> >> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion >> wrote: >>> >>> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >>> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >>> >>> >>> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >>> >>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >>> >>> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >>> Just a simple screenshot to start with... >>> >>> Francois >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:43:19 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:43:19 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Wow, another one in the wild. They did make several hundreds of them (I'm guessing - I tried to contact CES but I think they closed shop), so that is not super unusual, but I had never seen another one before. Did somebody on this list buy that one? The ebay seller did something bad on that one though, from a historical perspective, he removed the obfuscation that CES had put on the board (hiding with labels, paint etc). CES had even cut with a blade the Franklin labels, but left the serial numbers. There was no need to do that, the moment I opened mine I saw right away it was an ACE 1000 (the video modulator board is pretty obvious Ace 1000 if you've ever seen one in person). Regarding the ebay listing, it mentions something unusual about the power plug, but on the last image, that's a regular recessed Hubell, just like mine. Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:19 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 19, 2012 8:05 AM, "Bob Rosenbloom" wrote: >> >> ED LAB microcomputer training systems with a Franklin motherboard and > video card. >> >> >> Bob > > Oh, this one: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/200832204275 From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:49:27 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:49:27 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <20121019125310.GA86115@night.db.net> References: <20121019125310.GA86115@night.db.net> Message-ID: You were on the right track, as far as something for the educational market. Bell & Howell actually licensed the board from Apple (authorized). They apparently sold over 10,000 of these. While CES either got bare boards from Franklin, or they converted full machines. Serial numbers match on power supply and motherboard. Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 07:04:42AM -0400, Francois Dion wrote: >> The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html > > http://www.macgeek.org/museum/bhapple2plus/page02.html > > I know, it's not the one. However, I am finding it interesting just > how many Apple ]['s were grafted into gear. > > >> >> Francois >> >> >> -- >> >> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com >> >> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion wrote: >> > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >> > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >> > >> > >> > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >> > >> > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >> > >> > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >> > Just a simple screenshot to start with... >> > >> > Francois >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 19 19:49:31 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 17:49:31 -0700 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: <50816B89.9010108@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5081F51B.5050500@sbcglobal.net> On 10/19/2012 5:28 PM, Francois Dion wrote: > You have to tell me how you figured it out from the 4th clue. Do you > own one, or did you repair one in the past? > > CES Industries is the brand, in case anybody was wondering. LC (on > this list? posted and identified correctly the motherboard. Not just > any Franklin board, but one from a Franklin ACE 1000. The 4th clue > made that very obvious. > > Francois I've had them in the past. The banana jacks gave it away. I still have many of their analog and digital trainers, including one based on the Intel 8085. Bob > -- > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - rasberry-python.blogspot.com > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: >> On 10/19/2012 4:04 AM, Francois Dion wrote: >>> The fourth clue is up. Some of the innards. >>> >>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-4.html >>> >>> Francois >>> >> ED LAB microcomputer training systems with a Franklin motherboard and video >> card. >> >> >> Bob >> >> >>> -- >>> >>> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Francois Dion >>> wrote: >>>> I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now >>>> 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. >>>> >>>> >>>> Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? >>>> >>>> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html >>>> >>>> I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. >>>> Just a simple screenshot to start with... >>>> >>>> Francois >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com >> From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 19:56:23 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:56:23 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: That was by far one of the most interesting suggestion I have read on any of the lists and forums that this was posted to. The weird thing is that Apple ][ slots have 50 pins, but the 2 external slots are 44 pins and longer. Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 8:15 AM, wrote: >> I think there were "a lot". Lots of unlicensed clones in Taiwan from what I heard. >> >> Legit clones (again I think) like Franklin Ace and Laser were around. I think Apple got pissy though and tried to restrict the clone market. > > I'm wondering if it is some kind of Multibus or S-100 6502-based > system with Apple ROMs? Is that even possible? From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 19 20:02:03 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 21:02:03 -0400 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: <1846862527-1350583464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1626883519-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1846862527-1350583464-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1626883519-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: The first hint could have been done on the Raspberry Pi. I've compiled AdvanceMESS for the ARM with hard float support. Took many many hours, even with the Pi overclocked at 1GHz. Runs well anyway at emulating the Apple //e. Francois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 2:04 PM, wrote: > Yeah clue 2 with call -151 from basic to a microassembler makes it an apple II to me though I don't know what edition or version of a 2 if that's necessary. > > Are you emulating it on a raspberry pi? > -----Original Message----- > From: Francois Dion > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Oct 2012 10:41:22 > To: > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: It lives! > > I thought I had sent this to cctalk, but apparently not. There are now > 3 clues up, because I posted about it on tuesday, one hint a day. > > > Guess what computer I brought back from the dead? > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/it-lives-hint-1.html > > I'm thinking somebody on this list has used one and will recognize it. > Just a simple screenshot to start with... > > Francois > > > -- > > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > From db at db.net Fri Oct 19 20:24:04 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:24:04 -0500 Subject: It lives! In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <20121020012404.GA43668@night.db.net> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 08:56:23PM -0400, Francois Dion wrote: > That was by far one of the most interesting suggestion I have read on > any of the lists and forums that this was posted to. The weird thing > is that Apple ][ slots have 50 pins, but the 2 external slots are 44 > pins and longer. Not a KIMBUS perchance? - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 19 20:37:14 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 03:37:14 +0200 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_DEC_PWS_500au?= Message-ID: <5082004A.9060002@xs4all.nl> Two Digital (Equipment Corp.) Personal WorkStation 500au systems, each with a stock 500 MHz EV56 CPU (socketed), 1? Gbytes memory, on-board DE500 Fast Ethernet NIC, on-board SCSI, on-board (MMOV- compatible) Ensoniq ES1888 audio, additional DE450 NIC, PowerStorm 3D30, an additional QLogic SCSI controller (same type as on-board). One of the two may have a weak battery, but it's fortunately a regular button cell type battery. I have various options to offer. In any event, please contact me for more information, offers or potential trades (I'm in particular looking for SGI parts). I can also show pictures and arrange a 'test drive' or 'tour' via SSH or Telnet. The systems are located in the Netherlands and I'm willing to ship (internationally). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 19 20:37:51 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 03:37:51 +0200 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_Compaq_DS10?= Message-ID: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> Two Compaq AlphaServer DS10 systems, each with a 466 MHz EV6 processor and 2 Gbytes RAM (I can also reduce it to, say, 256 Mbytes). There are various options additionally, including SCSI RAID (e.g. Smart Array 5300 or even Smart Array 6400), GbE (DEGXA, original and/or modified), stock ELSA GLoria Synergy, various Radeon 7500 (also All-In-Wonder), NEC USB, audio cards and more. One of the two DS10s 'as-is', as it may have a faulty CD-ROM drive (it's also missing its 'badge/name plate' with "ALPHASERVER DS10" on it, below the "Compaq" logo, in case you should care). The skins are all intact, in good/excellent shape and included. I have various options to offer. In any event, please contact me for more information, offers or potential trades (I'm in particular looking for SGI parts). I can also show pictures and arrange a 'test drive' or 'tour' via SSH or Telnet. The systems are located in the Netherlands and I'm willing to ship (internationally). - MG From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 19 20:38:17 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 03:38:17 +0200 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_HP_rx2620_=22Montecito=22?= Message-ID: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> Two Hewlett-Packard Integrity rx2620 systems, with dual 9015 "Montecito" (IA-64 with hyperthreading, VT-x, etc.) dual-core processors, 24 Gbytes RAM, iLO/MP board and plenty of options (Ultra320 SCSI RAID, 10GbE, GbE-and-FC combo cards and much more). I should note, the processors have been installed last year, brand-new out of the box! (In fact, I can even deliver the original CPU boxes, with processor tools, included documents and so forth.) This type of CPU supports HPVM (also known as Integrity VM), which is a fairly recent feature. In any event, please contact me for more information, offers or potential trades (I'm in particular looking for SGI parts). I can also show pictures and arrange a 'test drive' or 'tour' via SSH or Telnet. The systems are located in the Netherlands and I'm willing to ship (internationally). - MG From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 20 10:33:14 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 08:33:14 -0700 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/12 3:41 PM, mc68010 wrote: > This is sort of neat but, too bad it's missing all the important stuff. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/121002431226 > > > it didn't stop > them from the ultimate silliness of building a PDP-14 that used a > PDP-8 as its console processor! I'm sorry, but Mark had this completely wrong and didn't understand what an Industrial-14 was. The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through a high speed serial port. Once the system was running, the PDP-8 didn't need to be there at all. You didn't even need the PDP-8 for program development. The company I worked for in the early 80's wrote software that could run on a PDP-8 or 11 to do the same thing. It was not uncommon for a large industrial process to have a dozen Industrial-14s chugging away replacing a whole room full of mechanical relay logic. These devices weren't general purpose computers. At the time, there was still a concern about computers and 'direct digital control', where control system designers didn't feel that general purpose computers that were reliable enough and could provide the fail-safes necessary that they knew that they could design into systems with relay ladder logic. This is also why there is still a market for PLCs (Programmable Logic Controllers) into industry along with the fact that these systems are expected to run for decades. Also, PDP-14 and Industrial-14 are two different things. The original PDP-14 used wire rope memory, which was a kind of ROM that you had to program the ladder logic into by hand while the Industrial-14 used PDP-8e core. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 12:10:34 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <507EB4D3.5060603@gmail.com> References: <507AFF03.6080101@xs4all.nl> <1350435953.34822.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <507EB4D3.5060603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1350753034.88973.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Jules Richardson If you're at the point of taking the drives out... C: actually I'm way past that point. Or the QX-10 is anyway. Shipped it out, recipient is obviously happy ???? Just thought I'd ask :) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 12:15:32 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: References: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 16, 12 08:39:41 pm Message-ID: <1350753332.15630.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Tony Duell > > for arguments sake (and in the event the stuck disk is expendable), > > couldn't you remove the drive and soak it w/isopropyl alcohol or > > something? To wash away the old grease? > > That might begin to loosen the old grease but won't remove it and might > well damage any electromechanical parts such as motors. Once the IPA > evaporates, the grease will re-solidify anyway since the original oils in > the grease have dried up. Indeed. I ngernal, soaking a fully-assembled unit, or randomly squirting solvents (or worse lubricants, and even worse Wanton Destruction 40) into mechanisms is a bad idea. C: Well, and I realize that a keyboard is an entirely different beast, but I have no problem tossing a k/b (w/o foam depression pads, you'd better check!) in a bath of hot water, soap, and ammonia. Let it soak, rattle the keys, rinse, let it dry THOROUGHLY, and it works great. There are solvents good and bad. Large motors I've left out in the elements, heck left one submerged for months, dried them out, and they worked fine. Small electronic motors could be an entirely different thing. But I'm not apprehensive about introducing solvents into *some* electronics at least. I'll admit though they range from ok to bad to worse though. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 20 12:22:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 10:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 12 05:56:15 pm Message-ID: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been meaning to ask this. If you have a disk that can't be read in a drive, is it possible to extract data using optical methods, i.e a microscope? How powerful would the unit need to be? From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Oct 20 12:43:05 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:43:05 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 52 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5082E2A9.1010002@pico-systems.com> > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 22:13:53 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Microscopes > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > Soem years ago a freidn of mine said he and an old microscope that he > didn;'t want. I was expecting at best a Russian thing (which, to be fair, > are quite reasoanble). I was amazed when he gave me a genuine Zeiss > microscope with 3 objectives in the turret. It needed a minor electrical > repair to the lamp PSU, but that was hardly a problem. > > It's not stereo, thoug. It does have binocular eyepieces, but with a beam > splitter from one objective. SO it's less tiring to use than a single > eyepiece model, but you don't get 3D images. It's stil la very nice > instruemnt > 3D really isn't all that important, most of the time. But, the longer working distance is the BIG thing on most of the stereo microscopes, especially for soldering and other electronic tweaking. Also, most of these have a really wide field of view and lower magnification than traditional microscopes. Jon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Oct 20 13:13:29 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 19:13:29 +0100 Subject: Microscopes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 10:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I managed to score a *free* used Brazilian knockoff Zeiss stereo >> microscope meant to be wall-mounted for a doctor's office and it's >> been really, really nice (in the past, I've borrowed a dissection >> microscope). > > Nice... A good stereo microscope is soemthing I intend getting sometime. > I did fid a little stero magnifier (a mini-microscope) made by Beck of > London for a few pounds in a charity shop. Of course it's now here :-) > > Soem years ago a freidn of mine said he and an old microscope that he > didn;'t want. I was expecting at best a Russian thing (which, to be fair, > are quite reasoanble). I was amazed when he gave me a genuine Zeiss > microscope with 3 objectives in the turret. It needed a minor electrical > repair to the lamp PSU, but that was hardly a problem. > I have a couple of BAUSCH & LOMB stereo zoom microscopes they have a .7 to 3 magnification in the body and 10 in the eyepiece also an accessory is a concave lens that fits under the body so can work further away When I had it at work working as a clockmaker :- http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works/P1010237.JPG the accessory lens is in the rough at the front left That one cost me 50 quid iirc Excellent for hunting shorts on pcbs and looking under chips, hand turning on a lathe etc Dave Caroline From wackyvorlon at me.com Sat Oct 20 13:35:06 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:35:06 -0400 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a microscope technology that could do it. -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-10-20, at 1:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I've been meaning to ask this. If you have a disk that can't be read in a drive, is it possible to extract data using optical methods, i.e a microscope? How powerful would the unit need to be? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 20 13:36:35 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 11:36:35 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 12 05:56:15 pm <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5082EF33.6080103@sydex.com> On 10/20/2012 10:22 AM, Chris Tofu wrote: > I've been meaning to ask this. If you have a disk that can't be read > in a drive, is it possible to extract data using optical methods, i.e > a microscope? How powerful would the unit need to be? (Please wrap long text lines!) If the medium is of low-density, you'll need something to make the domain walls visible, such as Magnasee, Kyread, Vistamag, QView etc. Basically a colloidal iron suspension in volatile carrier. Using a microscope to perform manual reading would be tedious beyond belief. More appropriate would be a laser with optical pickup. Usually, when any of the above are used, it's for gross issues, such as bit crowding, alignment errors, etc. and not for data retrieval. If you?e talking about modern high-density fixed disks, I don't know of a visual way, but that? not to say that there isn't one--or that it's even the preferred method. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sat Oct 20 14:01:43 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 12:01:43 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> Message-ID: <5082F517.20600@jwsss.com> On 10/20/2012 11:35 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a microscope technology that could do it. > > -------- > Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP > > On 2012-10-20, at 1:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> I've been meaning to ask this. If you have a disk that can't be read in a drive, is it possible to extract data using optical methods, i.e a microscope? How powerful would the unit need to be? There was a material called Magna-see which would deposit very small particles on a magnet recording. It is mostly useful to alignment of tape drive paths and optical inspection of the results of recordings there. We used some on a 2311 (I think) platter from Microdata Marathon. The drive was 2.5mb on 2 surfaces, or 1.2 on one. You could see the tracks and some variation, and sectors, but probably not well enough to extract data. I've never used my Magnasee on a modern platter, but one needs to remember that the recording on the drives I mention above was longitudinal to the head path on the media, and now the recording is vertical. I don't know with Magnasee if you would see any difference between a 0 and a 1 with vertical recording. Regardless of the magnet state, the same amount of Magnasee material would likely stick to a 0 or 1 cell. The other sport would be looking at a recording developed by Magnasee, and recall that there are encoding issues like NRZ, NRZI involved. Not for the faint hearted to do with a microscope and a notepad. From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Oct 20 14:19:04 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 20:19:04 +0100 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5082F517.20600@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <25E83C747A4F42B2A5DEC2B90CBB37BB@ANTONIOPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 10/20/2012 11:35 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a >> microscope technology that could do it. Current magnetic features are smaller than the wavelength of visible light, so the old magnetic fluid techniques won't work on a modern disk (I have to admit that I could not define "modern" in this sense ... you'd probably be fine on an RA60 platter, I've no idea about a mid 1990s 1GB disk though). A magnetic force STM is what you want. Knowing this list the next post will be someone listing the ones they have on hand :-) Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 20 14:23:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 15:23:50 -0400 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <25E83C747A4F42B2A5DEC2B90CBB37BB@ANTONIOPC> References: <25E83C747A4F42B2A5DEC2B90CBB37BB@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <5082FA46.3080301@neurotica.com> On 10/20/2012 03:19 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Current magnetic features are smaller than the wavelength of visible > light, > so the old magnetic fluid techniques won't work on a modern disk (I have > to admit that I could not define "modern" in this sense ... you'd > probably be > fine on an RA60 platter, I've no idea about a mid 1990s 1GB disk > though). > > A magnetic force STM is what you want. Knowing this list the next post > will > be someone listing the ones they have on hand :-) I'm working on it, but I'm not quite there yet. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 20 14:54:04 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 14:54:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: <1350753332.15630.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 16, 12 08:39:41 pm <1350753332.15630.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > From: Tony Duell > >> Indeed. I ngernal, soaking a fully-assembled unit, or randomly >> squirting solvents (or worse lubricants, and even worse Wanton >> Destruction 40) into mechanisms is a bad idea. > > Well, and I realize that a keyboard is an entirely different beast, but > I have no problem tossing a k/b (w/o foam depression pads, you'd better > check!) in a bath of hot water, soap, and ammonia. Let it soak, rattle > the keys, rinse, let it dry THOROUGHLY, and it works great. There are > solvents good and bad. I've run keyboard subassemblies through the dishwasher* before (disable the dry cycle!) but soaking in a bucket of hot water and soap certainly works too. [*pre-energy saver models, modern dishwashers that rely on rinse agents such as JetDry can and /will/ etch and discolor plastics with only a single wash cycle.] > Large motors I've left out in the elements, heck left one submerged for > months, dried them out, and they worked fine. Did you disassemble them and repack the ball bearings with fresh grease? If not, washing that grease out will certainly cause them to fail before too long. > Small electronic motors could be an entirely different thing. Small stepper motors and such would not like it at all. > But I'm not apprehensive about introducing solvents into *some* > electronics at least. I'll admit though they range from ok to bad to > worse though. Like anything else, you need to know what sort of parts can handle washing. Just as you can wash some PC boards, certain electromechanical parts such as pushbuttons, relays, and even other parts such as non-sealed variable resistors and tunable inductors may not be able to handle being washed and may have been installed on the PC board after the initial cleaning during manufacture. From js at cimmeri.com Sat Oct 20 16:10:20 2012 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:10:20 -0500 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? (tangent on MFM drives) Message-ID: <5083133C.4090901@cimmeri.com> Subject: Re: unibus to modern disk interface? From: allison Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:17:57 -0400 ... Me I planed ahead and kept all the small drives that people didn't want but still ran from older MFM and IDE to SCSI. That and old boards even if flagged dead.. they can be fixed or used for parts. Allison Hey, A. How are you keeping the bearings in your MFM drives lubed (if you are)? Most of my MFM drives still work, but the bearings are drying out. As the motors work harder to turn, the motor controllers run hotter and will burn out there first unless a way can be found to apply lube to the motors. Lou Ernst and I have been mulling over this issue. - John S. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Oct 20 21:51:59 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> Message-ID: <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a microscope $ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Compensating manually, > Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a > microscope technology that could do it. Well, others have posted reasons why a visible-light microscope is unlikely to help, possibly except for fairly old disks - and be very tedious even then. But it occurs to me that "data is stored magnetically" is not, by itself, reason to think an optical microscope can't do it. It would not surprise me a bit if magnetic domain orientation led to some kind of reflected-visible-light anisotropy, depending of course on the material and the orientations in question and such. After all, light is an electromagnetic phenomenon, and, as such, could plausibly interact with a magnetic field. (In particular, it would not surprise me if there were polarization effects.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 23:14:31 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:14:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> Message-ID: <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 20 Oct 2012, Paul Anderson wrote: > Since the data is stored magnetically, I don't believe there's a > microscope technology that could do it. "Disclosing fluid". It used to be used in magnetic audio and video recording for making "seamless" splices, by making the signal visible to be able to line up the diagonal (helical) scan lines. Monte made some of his own out of finely ground rust! I don't know what he used as a medium, probably a light oil. Floppy disks (48tpi and 96tpi) are 1/2mm or 1/4mm trqck to traqck spacing, and that was very readily visible. Individual bits along a track will require being able to resolve a bit better than 1/20 degree of rotational position. Way too tedious to manually examine the bits and manually decode them, unless you have a source of extremely cheap labor, such as grad students or third world workers. If you can get a clear image, then the software involved to analyze the flux transitions should be reaily do-able. Think polar coordinates, incrementing rotation to get the raw flux transition stream of a track, followed by software quite similar to what cat-weasel, disc-ferret, and/or any other flux-transition board uses. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 20 23:18:57 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5082F517.20600@jwsss.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <5082F517.20600@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121020211603.O94712@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 20 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > state, the same amount of Magnasee material would likely stick to a 0 or > 1 cell. > The other sport would be looking at a recording developed by Magnasee, > and recall that there are encoding issues like NRZ, NRZI involved. Not > for the faint hearted to do with a microscope and a notepad. Rather than '0' and '1' bits in NRZ or equivalent, you will have flux transitions. you need to watch for those boundaries, as pulses, NOT on or off in a cell position. Deciphering a single track manually would be a major project. Do you have a source for extraordinarily cheap labor? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 21 00:19:50 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2012 22:19:50 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> On a fairly modern hard drive, I seem to recall an article in a paper describing the use of a STM for data recovery. As I recall, the rate was VERY low--something like a kilobit per hour. You'd die before you got a gigabyte. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 02:25:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 05:25:45 -0200 Subject: Corel computer??? References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> http://retro.hackaday.com/Success/pics/17.jpg News to me :oO --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 04:26:26 2012 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 11:26:26 +0200 Subject: Corel computer??? In-Reply-To: <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> Message-ID: Ah, yes, the Netwinder - I never had one, but those seemed like nice machines. IIRC fanless, supported by NetBSD, nice small and quiet. (I think they use plain old IDE drives). I remember driving by the offices fairly regularly when I was working in Ottawa. Not in the (somewhat garish) main Corel building, but closer to downtown, just south of the Queensway somewhere between Bank and the Vanier Parkway... Joachim On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > http://retro.hackaday.com/Success/pics/17.jpg > > News to me :oO > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org :: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 04:46:08 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 02:46:08 -0700 Subject: Corel computer??? In-Reply-To: <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> Message-ID: check here for info http://www.netwinder.org/faq.html On 10/21/12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > http://retro.hackaday.com/Success/pics/17.jpg > > News to me :oO > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > From chd at chdickman.com Sun Oct 21 11:00:12 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:00:12 -0400 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. > The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited > function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that > could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through > a high speed serial port. > Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the pdp-8 still exist? -chuck From jimpdavis at gorge.net Sun Oct 21 12:04:21 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:04:21 -0700 Subject: ISA PC & misc gear for sale Message-ID: ISA PC-Elevator 386 + 387 co-processor board - $40 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148130&img=Pc-elevator.jpg ISA Digiboard Digichannel PC/8i 8 port serial - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148816&img=digi-if.jpg http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148815&img=digi-board.jpg 1987 High-end ISA VGA card TMS 34010-40 NEC - $25.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148222&img=video-1.jpg 1987 High-end ISA VGA card TMS 34010-40 NumberNine - $30.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148224&img=video-2.jpg Tektronix 4662 plotter - $100 / OBO http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148769&img=Front.jpg Hayes VSM 9600B full length ISA - Modem collector? - $15.00 http://alkaspace.com/is.php?i=148817&img=hayes-9600.jpg + shipping - Paypal friends option. Reply to jimpdavis at gmail.com - Jim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 21 12:37:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:37:55 -0400 Subject: Corel computer??? In-Reply-To: <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <67118B03F07A4473A3A70C5CD2D8085E@tababook> Message-ID: <508432F3.1080104@neurotica.com> On 10/21/2012 03:25 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > http://retro.hackaday.com/Success/pics/17.jpg > > News to me :oO Yup, I have a pair of these. I used one as a desktop machine for awhile. Really neat little machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 21 13:10:06 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:10:06 -0400 Subject: Anyone want an intel overdrive chip? Message-ID: <58C45FF8-0EC3-4AD2-8A8D-D6998AE6F053@me.com> I have an Intel Overdrive DX4ODP75 kicking around. Anyone interested? Free to good home:) From poc at pocnet.net Sun Oct 21 14:02:55 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:02:55 +0200 Subject: S: AS/400 connection software for classic Apple Macintosh Message-ID: Hello, I'm searching for certain software to make AS/400 and Classic Macs (late System 6 to 7.6.1) "talk" together properly. It's no problem to get this with current OS X but the old software has gone and I can't find this, let's call it abandonware, on the net. I'm running an 9401/170 attached to a token ring where also a Mac IIfx with a TokenRing NB 4/16-Board is attached. Plus a PowerMac 7500, also with a Token Ring Board. The whole stuff is running very smooothly but I'm lacking direct access to SNA and/or tn5250 via TCP/IP. According to an old Apple Book (Data communications and networks) there have been many solutions available (in no particular order): - Incarnations of sna?ps 5250 (gateway and client), - MacRUMBA Gateway (I got hold on the client a few months ago), - TokenAxcess, - MacMainframe (gateway and workstation), - asc5250 (Comm Toolbox module collection for TCP/IP), - MacMidrange, - Possibly MacIRMA (gateway and workstation), - MacTwin (with Twinax Card! Without it's nearly useless). - Netware for SAA 3.x, since I'm running NW 3.12 in a virtual machine. Any of these are of interest. A big plus (but not a must-have) would be if the particular software is complete with original disks, manual(s), and package. I also heard of a PTF for the AS/400 which provides AppleTalk service to the machine. Users can then connect to the AS/400 via Mac RUMBA, sna.ps client or such. One source of information said, this was a looong time ago and that PTF is expected to apply to OS/400 V3 or older, while I'm running V4R5. More specific information on this topic would be very welcome! Can't find anything useful on the net for that. Thank you in advance for your time and help. Regards, PoC From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 21 14:34:59 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:34:59 +0200 Subject: An 80386 CPU S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> References: <000d01cdabef$84750f50$8d5f2df0$@vitasoft.org> <750DA8DD-0B51-402E-9C36-1A75114844A4@gmail.com> <02266BF9-45E9-4CFE-8D6D-26C7B5AC4B5A@gmail.com> <507F457B.6050607@sydex.com> <8709D967-A191-4504-8F87-7C5EFF8894AE@me.com> Message-ID: <20121021213459.d9c98571.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 21:21:12 -0400 Paul Anderson wrote: > Another idea is using scotch tape in a vacuum to make the x-rays. Or an "old" beam tetrode: http://www.danyk.wz.cz/rtg2_en.html -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 21 14:53:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 20:53:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson QX-10 question In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Oct 20, 12 02:54:04 pm Message-ID: > > But I'm not apprehensive about introducing solvents into *some* > > electronics at least. I'll admit though they range from ok to bad to > > worse though. > > Like anything else, you need to know what sort of parts can handle > washing. Just as you can wash some PC boards, certain electromechanical Of course. CLeaning and degreasing solvent are very useful when used correctly. In genral, what does a lot more harm than good is to soak acomplete assmebly in solvent, or to spray solvent into something indescriminately.. You end up moving the gunk from one place where it's not wanted to sowmehre else where it is probably equally not wanted. What does do good is to take the thing apart, soak those paets that can be safely soaked in the solvent, then wipe them clean nad repeat with fresh solvent until they really are clean. Not forgetting to clena out pivot holes ('pegwood' anyone ;-)) And then to correctly relubricate things. > parts such as pushbuttons, relays, and even other parts such as non-sealed > variable resistors and tunable inductors may not be able to handle being > washed and may have been installed on the PC board after the initial > cleaning during manufacture. Alternatively there may have been sealing tapes applied when the component was made and pulled off after the compnent was fitted ot tghe PCB and the PCB cleaned. I have seen at least one relay which had a plastic 'pip' on top you were supposed to cut off after the relay was fitted and tge PCB had been cleaned. Obviously with suych parts there's no way to re-seal them for subsequenct cleaning of the board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 21 15:08:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:08:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 20, 12 10:19:50 pm Message-ID: > > On a fairly modern hard drive, I seem to recall an article in a paper > describing the use of a STM for data recovery. As I recall, the rate > was VERY low--something like a kilobit per hour. > > You'd die before you got a gigabyte. Even with the typical 'disk gigabyte' of 1e9 bytes, I get it as over 900 years... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 21 16:53:17 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation Message-ID: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> So I finally got the needed MMJ serial cables and got my VAXstation 3100 setup using the Solbourne S3000 as a serial console. The boot monitor comes up just fine in cu, but the machine remains at the boot monitor and does not start VMS. TEST 50 says ?41 DEVASSIGN, TEST A SHOW DEV shows an ESA0, which I assume is the 10b2 Ethernet because it shows a MAC address, and a DKA0, which is a 1.05GB drive. So, I do BOOT DKA0 and it appears to start (transcribed from my Android, sorry for typos): %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT **** Fatal BUG CHECK, version = V7.2 KRNLSTAKNV, Kernal stack [cut] (system dump follows, I can type this in if you want it) Being a total novice to VMS system administration, what should I be looking at? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The E-mail Signature Who Loved Me ------------------------------ From jon at jonworld.com Sun Oct 21 17:11:03 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:11:03 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 5:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > So I finally got the needed MMJ serial cables and got my VAXstation 3100 setup > using the Solbourne S3000 as a serial console. The boot monitor comes up > just fine in cu, but the machine remains at the boot monitor and does not > start VMS. ... > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT My VMS is super rusty. Check out this page for an idea of boot flags to try: http://hoffmanlabs.org/vmsfaq/vmsfaq_022.html Have you tried a DIAG boot? Maybe this webpage has some good info: https://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.vms/tree/browse_frm/month/2000-06?hide_quotes=no&pli=1 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 21 17:25:05 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:25:05 +0100 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <00b301cdafda$ed95a0f0$c8c0e2d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: 21 October 2012 22:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation > > So I finally got the needed MMJ serial cables and got my VAXstation 3100 > setup using the Solbourne S3000 as a serial console. The boot monitor > comes up just fine in cu, but the machine remains at the boot monitor and > does not start VMS. > > TEST 50 says ?41 DEVASSIGN, TEST > > A SHOW DEV shows an ESA0, which I assume is the 10b2 Ethernet because > it shows a MAC address, and a DKA0, which is a 1.05GB drive. > > So, I do BOOT DKA0 and it appears to start (transcribed from my Android, > sorry for typos): > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the > PAGEFILE.SYS > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open > SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT > > > **** Fatal BUG CHECK, version = V7.2 KRNLSTAKNV, Kernal stack [cut] > (system dump follows, I can type this in if you want it) > > Being a total novice to VMS system administration, what should I be looking > at? > At a guess, either a hardware fault or a corrupt disk. One way to work out which it is is to boot VMS off the network. To do that you can create a working VMS system on SIMH and then add your physical machine as a satellite to the simulated machine. Regards Rob From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 17:34:49 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 15:34:49 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> On 10/21/2012 2:53 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT That's all totally normal. Looks like a new install since they installed DECNET but, didn't configure it yet. > > **** Fatal BUG CHECK, version = V7.2 KRNLSTAKNV, Kernal stack [cut] > (system dump follows, I can type this in if you want it) > I'd say corrupt system disk. Do you have a VMS CD ? You may need to reinstall. You can download images for free from the Hobbyist program. The VS3100 will boot of CDROM drive that work on Sun boxes. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Oct 21 17:35:50 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:35:50 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? (tangent on MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <5083133C.4090901@cimmeri.com> References: <5083133C.4090901@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <508478C6.50606@verizon.net> On 10/20/2012 05:10 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > ... > > Me I planed ahead and kept all the small drives that people didn't > want but still ran from older > MFM and IDE to SCSI. That and old boards even if flagged dead.. > they can be fixed or used for parts. > > Allison > > Hey, A. How are you keeping the bearings in your MFM drives lubed > (if you are)? Most of my MFM drives still work, but the bearings are > drying out. As the motors work harder to turn, the motor controllers > run hotter and will burn out there first unless a way can be found to > apply lube to the motors. Lou Ernst and I have been mulling over this > issue. > > - John S. > If the lube is failing so are the bearings and times up. Repair is unlikely for the 5.25 and smaller drives. Since I'm playing with ST506 and later MFM lube is not easily possible as they are sealed. I've not had any issues to date and they seem to run fine when I pull them out. I can say the older Oxide coated drives are know for Stiction and that seems to get worse with age. I have my first ST506 (ca 1981) that needs a rotational twist (inertia) to start because of that but that drive did that since about 1985. My St225s, D540s, 1325s and RD54s are still going fine along with all the RZ series I have. I use the RZs for fast backups plug them in, boot stand alone backup, do image copy, shutdown and disconnect. That way if the system drive pukes (and I assume it will someday) it's a swap and that is two levels deep. The key was collecting when cheap or free was common for that type everything and anything, careful storage (no garage or out in the wide temp range shed) and use even if infrequent (backups). Also bad drives were taken as the HDA or board were salvageable as its rare both fail at the same time. I was hot for any 1325 as often the problem was the head was simply stuck, open, unstick, use for years after. At the other extreme drive known to have high failure rate were marked as use for replacement or for parts swap. Some were avoided or given away while working like ST250s as they would fail and were known to be very bad. The IDE collection runs from from small 40mb stuff to a box load of ST3660A (500MB later version that had a great track record, same for 4.3MB WD). Then again I have CDC 20mb SCSI that everyone said was the worst drive for failure thats still going (CP/M machine using Micromint SB180) and a Quantum Bigfoot 1gb IDE that is supposed to be also terrible and mine was gotten free and still runs a backup 486DX box. Same for my SYQUEST 270Mb cartridge drive and disks that still work with the Parallel port to IDE adaptor they sold it with. So I may be the exception or just treated them better. However, MMC, SD, USB flash, CF and IDE/SATA based solid state drives are also collected and used as well even old very small USB and CF. They often are a good solution rather than running an older IDE drive. Then again I've upgraded my S100 to run IDE and the IDE of choice is CF then. Floppy is usually 3.5 (save for NS* hard sector) as they are common still and so is media. So the need for drives and their heat, power and cooling needs are much reduced making it easier to keep the old boxes going. In the end it's what the system requires that dictates how old I go on disks and spares for them. the DEC systems had OS and Controller dependencies that mean keeping MFM drives handy and a VS2000 to format them. Also since I have drives, RQDXn controllers are good for me to use and since the drives are scarce often the controller is cheap it's just easier. Fortunately I do have a few CMD controllers for the QBUS uVAXen so that solves the large disk problem for them. the small uVAXen (3100 family) run SCSI and when people were chucking 200M/400M/600M/1gb/4gb drive I grabbed them for spares. Problems are avoided then. Allison From robert at irrelevant.com Sun Oct 21 17:53:54 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:53:54 +0100 Subject: Prestel and Viewdata Message-ID: In a random fit of rash behaviour, I've copied over and "made live" the wiki version of my viewdata history/preservation/memories website, running alongside and in parallel to the existing version. This means that if any of you want to contribute, then rather than hoping I'll get around to adding stuff at some indeterminate future date, you can pile right in there! There's still lots of pages to convert over, and I need to sort out my custom plugins that manage the documents and viewdata pages themselves, but that's why the old version is still there... at least this way, I might feel guilty about not having updated for over a year and get on and do it ... So, if anybody wants to help, get in there! (Wiki) http://www.viewdata.org.uk/introduction (old) http://www.viewdata.org.uk/index.php?cat=10_Home&page=10_Welcome Rob. From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 21 18:58:14 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:58:14 -0400 Subject: Anyone want an intel overdrive chip? In-Reply-To: <58C45FF8-0EC3-4AD2-8A8D-D6998AE6F053@me.com> References: <58C45FF8-0EC3-4AD2-8A8D-D6998AE6F053@me.com> Message-ID: Looks like I have a taker. Thanks! -------- Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP On 2012-10-21, at 2:10 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have an Intel Overdrive DX4ODP75 kicking around. Anyone interested? Free to good home:) > > From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 20:17:55 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:17:55 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2012, at 6:34 PM, mc68010 wrote: > I'd say corrupt system disk. Do you have a VMS CD ? You > may need to reinstall. You can download images for free > from the Hobbyist program. Whoa, I totally missed that. It was only a year ago that I had to order the hobbyist CD and wait nearly a month to get it. That is good news, indeed! - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 20:42:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:42:50 -0400 Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? (tangent on MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <508478C6.50606@verizon.net> References: <5083133C.4090901@cimmeri.com> <508478C6.50606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <435F6AFE-497C-49F8-AC5D-77B984281BA5@gmail.com> On Oct 21, 2012, at 6:35 PM, allison wrote: > Then again I have CDC 20mb SCSI that everyone said was the worst drive for failure thats still > going (CP/M machine using Micromint SB180) and a Quantum Bigfoot 1gb IDE that is > supposed to be also terrible and mine was gotten free and still runs a backup 486DX box. My recollection of the Bigfoot was that its terrible reputation was more due to the speed than the reliability; it was a 5.25" drive in a 3.5" world, so I wonder if they were able to spend the extra space on beefier servos. I didn't hear any complaints about their reliability, but perhaps I wasn't listening in the right circles. - Dave From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 20:43:53 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 18:43:53 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> On 10/21/2012 6:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > Whoa, I totally missed that. It was only a year ago that I had to > order the hobbyist CD and wait nearly a month to get it. That is good > news, indeed! - Dave You have to send them an email and they send you the ftp login details. Has much more than just the VMS cd too. From mc68010 at gmail.com Sun Oct 21 23:53:22 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 21:53:22 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>, <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>, <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> What are these models of ? http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 22 00:42:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 00:42:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: unibus to modern disk interface? (tangent on MFM drives) In-Reply-To: <435F6AFE-497C-49F8-AC5D-77B984281BA5@gmail.com> References: <5083133C.4090901@cimmeri.com> <508478C6.50606@verizon.net> <435F6AFE-497C-49F8-AC5D-77B984281BA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 21, 2012, at 6:35 PM, allison wrote: > >> Then again I have CDC 20mb SCSI that everyone said was the worst drive >> for failure thats still going (CP/M machine using Micromint SB180) and >> a Quantum Bigfoot 1gb IDE that is supposed to be also terrible and mine >> was gotten free and still runs a backup 486DX box. > > My recollection of the Bigfoot was that its terrible reputation was more > due to the speed than the reliability; it was a 5.25" drive in a 3.5" > world, so I wonder if they were able to spend the extra space on beefier > servos. I didn't hear any complaints about their reliability, but > perhaps I wasn't listening in the right circles. I powered up one of these Quantum Bigfoot drives earlier this year. It came out of a discarded junk-clone Pentium class machine and appeared to have been transferred from a previous computer by the original owner. It seemed to work well, but it was -noisy-, not in terms of wear, but just normal operating noise. Maybe the noise they made during normal operation was part of their bad reputation? I'd just as soon use a 1GB CF card in place of one of these drives today since small CF cards are so easy to come by. I do remember Compaq made extensive use of some of these Quantum drives in some of their consumer PCs, so at one time there were quite a lot of them around. From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 22 00:50:42 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 00:50:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net>, , <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net>, <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com>, <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > What are these models of ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 Is it a Singer System 10? I'm not that familiar with these so someone else might know for sure. From witchy69 at virginmedia.com Sun Oct 21 17:29:11 2012 From: witchy69 at virginmedia.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:29:11 +0100 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 21/10/2012 22:53, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > So I finally got the needed MMJ serial cables and got my VAXstation 3100 setup > using the Solbourne S3000 as a serial console. The boot monitor comes up > just fine in cu, but the machine remains at the boot monitor and does not > start VMS. Wish I'd known you were after MMJ stuff, could've made you some! Postage from the UK wouldn't have been prohibitive :) > TEST 50 says ?41 DEVASSIGN, TEST > > A SHOW DEV shows an ESA0, which I assume is the 10b2 Ethernet because it > shows a MAC address, and a DKA0, which is a 1.05GB drive. RZ26, yarr. > So, I do BOOT DKA0 and it appears to start (transcribed from my Android, > sorry for typos): > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT Bizarre, even missing DECnet/OSI configs (which is what that error points to) shouldn't cause a crash. Time for a conversational boot. At the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) do B/1 You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 22 01:25:32 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 01:25:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2012, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 21/10/2012 22:53, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > >> So I finally got the needed MMJ serial cables and got my VAXstation >> 3100 setup using the Solbourne S3000 as a serial console. The boot >> monitor comes up just fine in cu, but the machine remains at the boot >> monitor and does not start VMS. > > Wish I'd known you were after MMJ stuff, could've made you some! Postage > from the UK wouldn't have been prohibitive :) I'm on the same side of the pond as Cameron and I'm also able to fabricate MMJ cables (with enough connectors still on hand to make 100s more). Better than 10 years ago when I was first trying to hunt for these sort of cables and adapters no one wanted to part with any so I gave up and bought proper tooling and began making my own ;) Shame the USPS decided to make international shipping pretty much cost prohibitive for sending small inexpensive parcels to the UK. At one time I was sending out tons of small cables internationally (including lots of TRS-80 stuff). These days international postage is typically more than 2-3x the cost of what a small cable itself costs to make. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 01:44:38 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 23:44:38 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5084EB56.7070806@gmail.com> On 10/21/2012 11:25 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > Shame the USPS decided to make international shipping pretty much cost > prohibitive for sending small inexpensive parcels to the UK. At one > time I was sending out tons of small cables internationally (including > lots of TRS-80 stuff). These days international postage is typically > more than 2-3x the cost of what a small cable itself costs to make. You can send stuff under 4lbs USPS First Class international Parcel which is super cheap. The problem is no real tracking and no insurance. If it is lost or damaged it's just gone. No claims no appeals. Just poof. There are also very limited ways to print postage for first class international parcels online. They don't make it easy. You can do it at any post office though. It is very cheap for small things. Something like a MMJ cable might be $5 to pretty much anywhere in Europe. As things get heavier the difference between it and Priority International start to disappear though. When you get up towards the limit it is just a dollar or two different and doesn't make any sense. From jon at jonworld.com Mon Oct 22 07:57:04 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:57:04 -0400 Subject: Interesting ePay find... Message-ID: I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no link to the seller. I never heard of these before. http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 After a lot of Google I found this: http://www.?home.?unix-?ag.?org/?engel/?ti/? (which isn't working) The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. -- -Jon Jonathan Katz, Indianapolis, IN. From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Oct 22 08:16:23 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:16:23 +0200 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> References: <1349822017.30965.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <53435FE66274480FA6725F6F4E658B6B@tababook> <507593D5.6010101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121022131623.GA23188@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 11:27:17AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/10/2012 10:58 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> QUINZE MIL FLOPPIES??? Que voces vao fazer com tanto disquete assim?! > >> C: In englaise sil vous plaint. No sprekenzy deutsche! Nor espanolay. > > > > Pardon, mon signeur...I though it was a personal message :) Esto non > > es espa?ol, pero que en Brasil hablamos el portuguese :) > > In our country, people think that the USA is the center of the world, > the biggest in the world, and the most important in the world. Most > people here think EVERYONE whose skin is a shade darker than ours is > "Mexican", they all speak "Spanish", and they all eat "Mexican food". > > I can probably count on one hand the number of people here who realize > that: > > 1. Portuguese is the primary language in Brazil 1.1. The Portuguese spoken in Brazil has a pile of small, but important (and potentially embarrassing) differences from the Portuguese spoken in Portugal. > 2. Brazil is almost exactly the same size as the USA > 3. Brazil has about 2/3 as many citizens as the USA > 4. Brazil's currency is NOT the Peso (tongue firmly in cheeck) Of course not, the Peso is the currency of the USA, right? (bloke I know keeps talking about the "US Peso") > 5. Mexico is a part of North America > It is very embarrassing sometimes. :-( I'm a person who failed nearly > every course in high school, due to disinterest and a crappy system, and > even *I* know these things! Having brazilian cow-orkers can be quite enlightening ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 22 08:31:59 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 06:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: from Adrian Graham at "Oct 21, 12 11:29:11 pm" Message-ID: <201210221331.q9MDVxS117432808@floodgap.com> > Wish I'd known you were after MMJ stuff, could've made you some! Postage > from the UK wouldn't have been prohibitive :) I bought it from a cabler that's built me some custom jobs before. However, good to know there is more out there. :) > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk > > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS > > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] > > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > > > > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT > > Bizarre, even missing DECnet/OSI configs (which is what that error points > to) shouldn't cause a crash. > > Time for a conversational boot. At the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) do B/1 > > You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to > continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product > show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. Thanks for the tips. I'll give this a spin this evening after work. I was puzzling over the bits I needed from the URL Jonathan provided. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The older a man gets, the farther he had to walk to school as a boy. ------- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 08:41:45 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 08:41:45 -0500 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: i would think so one just has to go looking around the industrial world in back rooms and such On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. > > The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited > > function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that > > could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through > > a high speed serial port. > > > > Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the > pdp-8 still exist? > > -chuck > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 22 08:59:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 09:59:39 -0400 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> I'd sure like to find more of this hardware, and ANY related software. I'm trying to score the empty chassis on eBay, but it'll probably go higher than I can afford right now. I have one complete machine, but the chassis is kinda banged up. Fascinating stuff. -Dave On 10/22/2012 09:41 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > i would think so > one just has to go looking around the industrial world in back rooms and > such > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Charles Dickman wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. >>> The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited >>> function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that >>> could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through >>> a high speed serial port. >>> >> >> Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the >> pdp-8 still exist? >> >> -chuck >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 09:21:20 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 09:21:20 -0500 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: its to bad they pulled the cars outa it though On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'd sure like to find more of this hardware, and ANY related software. > I'm trying to score the empty chassis on eBay, but it'll probably go > higher than I can afford right now. I have one complete machine, but > the chassis is kinda banged up. > > Fascinating stuff. > > -Dave > > On 10/22/2012 09:41 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > i would think so > > one just has to go looking around the industrial world in back rooms and > > such > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Charles Dickman > wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >>> The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. > >>> The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited > >>> function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that > >>> could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through > >>> a high speed serial port. > >>> > >> > >> Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for > the > >> pdp-8 still exist? > >> > >> -chuck > >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 22 09:31:28 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:31:28 -0400 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508558C0.4050507@neurotica.com> Yeah :-( On 10/22/2012 10:21 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > its to bad they pulled the cars outa it though > > On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> I'd sure like to find more of this hardware, and ANY related software. >> I'm trying to score the empty chassis on eBay, but it'll probably go >> higher than I can afford right now. I have one complete machine, but >> the chassis is kinda banged up. >> >> Fascinating stuff. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 10/22/2012 09:41 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> i would think so >>> one just has to go looking around the industrial world in back rooms and >>> such >>> >>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Charles Dickman >> wrote: >>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>>> >>>>> The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. >>>>> The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited >>>>> function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that >>>>> could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through >>>>> a high speed serial port. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for >> the >>>> pdp-8 still exist? >>>> >>>> -chuck >>>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Oct 22 10:32:16 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 11:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF7E818C72688C-15B4-1A5FC@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message: 26 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 06:31:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation Message-ID: <201210221331.q9MDVxS117432808 at floodgap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Wish I'd known you were after MMJ stuff, could've made you some! Postage > from the UK wouldn't have been prohibitive :) > >> > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk >> > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped >> > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk >> > %SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS >> > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] >> > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 >> > >> > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT >> >> Bizarre, even missing DECnet/OSI configs (which is what that error points >> to) shouldn't cause a crash. >> >> Time for a conversational boot. At the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) do B/1 >> >> You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to >> continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product >> show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. > > >Thanks for the tips. I'll give this a spin this evening after work. >I was puzzling over the bits I needed from the URL Jonathan provided. Couldn't this be a symptom of a redefined SYS$SYSROOT: pointing somewhere else other than DKA0: (such as an external expansion pack)? In any case, if your VS isn't running a new version of UCX or MultiNet/TCPware go ahead and get TCPware or Multinet, as the version of UCX that came with 7.2 would bring the machine to a crawl under light network load. From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 11:42:51 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 09:42:51 -0700 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5085778B.5060809@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no > link to the seller. I never heard of these before. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 > > After a lot of Google I found this: > http://www.?home.?unix-?ag.?org/?engel/?ti/? (which isn't working) > > The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: > http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php > > I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. > Bitsavers has some docs http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ti/1500/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Oct 22 12:30:21 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 -0700 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no > link to the seller. I never heard of these before. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 > > After a lot of Google I found this: > http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) Bad characters in the url. Try this: http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it seems. > The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: > http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php > > I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. > From spedraja at ono.com Mon Oct 22 13:20:37 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:20:37 +0200 Subject: IBM DOS/VSE Listing in eBay Message-ID: Not sure if this would be interesting for someone (Herculeans specially)... http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-DOS-VSE-Supervisor-Assembly-Listing-Rel-3-0-PTF-8201-Super-PTF-/110966291959?pt=US_Vintage_Computers_Mainframes&hash=item19d61b3df7 SPc. From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 13:52:08 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:52:08 +0000 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <67247622-1350931929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-685416970-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Wonder what cables and drives itd need. I imagine one could probably get a less interesting os on there if it works. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Hilpert Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no > link to the seller. I never heard of these before. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 > > After a lot of Google I found this: > http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) Bad characters in the url. Try this: http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it seems. > The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: > http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php > > I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 22 16:07:05 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 14:07:05 -0700 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <67247622-1350931929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-685416970-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <67247622-1350931929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-685416970-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5085B579.5050802@bitsavers.org> On 10/22/12 11:52 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Wonder what cables and drives itd need. I imagine one could probably get a less interesting os on there if it works. > There is very little technical information available for these systems. They are sort of related to the TI Explorer. At least some models shared the same bus (Nubus). I'm pretty surprised someone still is supporting them. As I understood it, HP bought the product line from TI. The few manuals I have are on bitsavers. I have distributions tape images around somewhere. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 16:40:16 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:40:16 -0500 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <508558C0.4050507@neurotica.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> <508558C0.4050507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: i was debating on trying to get it to use it to store all my spare cards From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 17:20:28 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Fred Cisin If you can get a clear image, then the software involved to analyze the flux transitions should be reaily do-able.? Think polar coordinates, incrementing rotation to get the raw flux transition stream of a track, followed by software quite similar to what cat-weasel, disc-ferret, and/or any other flux-transition board uses. C: So in the absence of optical means to disclose flux transitions, will anything else do the trick? In my experience once a disk is rendered unreadable, putting it in another drive or whatever resulted in no difference in results. Why I never obtained a catweasel. And generally (overwhelmingly!) I don't even say "lessee what's on this little disk here" and pull up a directory or whatever. Nuh uh, I go strait to trying to image it. From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 17:22:57 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On a fairly modern hard drive, I seem to recall an article in a paper describing the use of a STM for data recovery.? As I recall, the rate was VERY low--something like a kilobit per hour. You'd die before you got a gigabyte. --Chuck C: I never should have used the word platters. I was talking about floppy disks mainly. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 18:36:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: So in the absence of optical means to disclose flux transitions, will > anything else do the trick? In my experience once a disk is rendered > unreadable, putting it in another drive or whatever resulted in no > difference in results. Why I never obtained a catweasel. And generally > (overwhelmingly!) I don't even say "lessee what's on this little disk > here" and pull up a directory or whatever. Nuh uh, I go strait to trying > to image it. It depends on WHY it is "unreadable". I have repaired some "parity" errors, and SOME "Sector Not Found" errors (a few bits out of whack in the sector header), using TE.EXE on the Central Point Option Board (a predecessor of the CatWeasel and DicFerret) Yes, repairs at that level are slow and tedious. SOME aspects of that could be automated. TE identifies where it sees "inaoppropriate" or "missing" clock bits. It would not be hard (no more than a few man-years of work) to go further and identify which of those are in positions as to be probable deliberate (address marks), and for the others to try the various combinations of possible repairs to see which, if any, produce a track image that "meets standards". Therefore, once the flux-transition stream from the flux-transition board (catweasel, discferret, option board, OR Chris' Optical Flux Transition Finder) has been processed to produce a FM, GCR, MFM, MMFM, etc. bit stream, that additional error identification and correction code could fix some of the flaws. THEN the code to separate sectors. THEN file system code to extract files. I don't think that we are ready to try to do it real-time to make a "mountable" optical magnetic floppy drive (not to be confused with Magneto-Optical!), BUT, a project of resurrecting a damaged floppy disk MIGHT BE possible. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 18:46:06 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 16:46:06 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> On 10/22/2012 03:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I never should have used the word platters. I was talking about floppy disks mainly. Then saying "floppy", "diskette" or similar would get your point across. Or you could use the term of art "cookie" if you wanted. As I and others have said, you need to use a magnetic developer (I gave a bunch of them) to make the domain walls visible. Even so, if there's a media defect, that may not help you. I've never really found any reason not to use the Catweasel for this kind of thing. As with any other low-level tool (and the CW is VERY low-level), knowing what you're doing is essential. The one thing a CW gives you is a complete history of where the flux changes occur, which means that you can add a missing one or remove an extraneous one. It works very well, if you're up to writing your own recovery tools. --Chuck From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 19:03:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Chuck Guzis On 10/22/2012 03:22 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: I never should have used the word platters. I was talking about floppy disks mainly. Then saying "floppy", "diskette" or similar would get your point across.? Or you could use the term of art "cookie" if you wanted. As I and others have said, you need to use a magnetic developer (I gave a bunch of them) to make the domain walls visible.? Even so, if there's a media defect, that may not help you. I've never really found any reason not to use the Catweasel for this kind of thing.? As with any other low-level tool (and the CW is VERY low-level), knowing what you're doing is essential.? The one thing a CW gives you is a complete history of where the flux changes occur, which means that you can add a missing one or remove an extraneous one.? It works very well, if you're up to writing your own recovery tools. C: Ok, but the Catweasel is no longer produced. And assuming I had one (preferably the MKIV I supposed), would it be effective in reproducing data from *old* disks, say that worked fine 1-5 years ago, but are just deteriorating due to basic age, or temperature swings? Along w/the materials you described? It seems worth it to extract said data, even if it requires a certain amount of *processing*. ?Is the Catweasel a difficult device to reproduce? How long can you expect a deteriorated disk to last? From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 19:03:32 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:03:32 -0700 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Oct 22 19:03:12 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:03:12 +0200 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121023000312.GB23188@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 03:46:47PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 11 Oct 2012, steve shumaker wrote: > > explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what > > do you mean by that? > > 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right > corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an > announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes > even have sound with the animated ads! *hualp* *sounds of sudden projectile vomiting* And people wonder why I still haven't found a reason to use the idiots lantern ... > Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. And then we can force-feed them cyanide, burn their remains, bury their ashes together with highly radioactive waste and salt the ground that spawned them. One can't be too careful. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 22 19:15:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:15:27 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2012 08:03 PM, mc68010 wrote: > Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 19:19:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Ok, but the Catweasel is no longer produced. And assuming I had one > (preferably the MKIV I supposed), would it be effective in reproducing > data from *old* disks, say that worked fine 1-5 years ago, but are just > deteriorating due to basic age, or temperature swings? A flux-transition board would let you copy all of the bits that are good, without choking out on the sector or track? when one bit is bad. > Along w/the materials you described? It seems worth it to extract said > data, even if it requires a certain amount of *processing*. >?Is the Catweasel a difficult device to reproduce? The early "Option Board"s were discrete ICs. The switch to LSI may have been more to do with discouraging competitors than anything else. Are they that hard to find? > How long can you expect a deteriorated disk to last? Wabash? Dysan? OLD diskettes last a lot longer than more recent ones. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 22 19:25:08 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:25:08 -0700 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:03 PM -0700 10/22/12, mc68010 wrote: >Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 Wow! I'm not sure what it is, though I believe the LA75 is quite a bit newer than the rest of it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From barythrin at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 19:26:03 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:26:03 +0000 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. -----Original Message----- From: Brent Hilpert Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no > link to the seller. I never heard of these before. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 > > After a lot of Google I found this: > http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) Bad characters in the url. Try this: http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it seems. > The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: > http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php > > I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 22 19:27:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:27:54 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <20121023000312.GB23188@thangorodrim.de> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> <20121023000312.GB23188@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <5085E48A.7070208@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2012 08:03 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what >>> do you mean by that? >> >> 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right >> corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an >> announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes >> even have sound with the animated ads! > > *hualp* > > *sounds of sudden projectile vomiting* Yep. > And people wonder why I still haven't found a reason to use the idiots > lantern ... !!!! I'd never heard that term before. It's great! >> Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. > > And then we can force-feed them cyanide, burn their remains, bury their > ashes together with highly radioactive waste and salt the ground that > spawned them. One can't be too careful. Don't forget the cat pee and the fire ants. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 19:35:40 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1350952540.82744.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin >?Is the Catweasel a difficult device to reproduce? The early "Option Board"s were discrete ICs.? The switch to LSI may have been more to do with discouraging competitors than anything else. Are they that hard to find? C: No, and in fact I have one. Was about to list it on ePay. ??? Now to find the s/w (yes I know it's on the web somewhere, I may even have it on a h/d somewhere). From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 22 19:41:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 -0400 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it or not. I will ask him. -Dave On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. > > Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >> >> After a lot of Google I found this: >> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) > > Bad characters in the url. Try this: > http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ > > 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it > seems. > > >> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >> >> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >> > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jon at jonworld.com Mon Oct 22 19:46:08 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:46:08 -0400 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: I can't justify the shipping costs, otherwise I may. I assume it's all 50 pin SCSI inside (I know, a big assumption, but given the era of the workstation, I thin it's likely.) Also, the picture shows what looks to be a full-height 5.25" hard drive in one of them, even though the seller says "drives removed." On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:26 PM, wrote: > Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. > > Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 20:01:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:01:27 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5085EC67.6020806@sydex.com> On 10/22/2012 05:03 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > C: Ok, but the Catweasel is no longer produced. And assuming I had > one (preferably the MKIV I supposed), would it be effective in > reproducing data from *old* disks, say that worked fine 1-5 years > ago, but are just deteriorating due to basic age, or temperature > swings? Along w/the materials you described? It seems worth it to > extract said data, even if it requires a certain amount of > *processing*. Is the Catweasel a difficult device to reproduce? How > long can you expect a deteriorated disk to last? The Catweasel can be reproduced with just about any modern microcontroller capable of addressing 128K of RAM (either the RAM is on-chip or external). Just use the timer "capture" facility of the chip and stash the lower 8 bits of every capture value in the RAM. The rest is interfacing--use USB if you want. I've done it using something as slow as an ATMEGA162 running at 16MHz (there was more than enough speed to handle a 500Kbps high-density data stream). The rest is programming and interfacing. There is really not much to it. The last iteration of the Catweasel had some fancy features and a selectable clock rate up to 56MHz, but basically it was the same idea as the earliest ISA one (which may still be available in the US, at least). People grouse because there wasn't much software written for the CW, but that shouldn't be a problem if you know what you're doing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 20:05:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:05:02 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5085ED3E.7040109@sydex.com> On 10/22/2012 05:19 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> How long can you expect a deteriorated disk to last? > Wabash? > Dysan? > OLD diskettes last a lot longer than more recent ones. I'm running a batch of ZDOS 8" floppies written on a Zilog MCZ; all read just fine. At least they seem to have lasted longer than the hardware that produced them--or for that matter, human memory of the box. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 22 20:12:39 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:12:39 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5085ED3E.7040109@sydex.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085ED3E.7040109@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5085EF07.9050600@bitsavers.org> On 10/22/12 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm running a batch of ZDOS 8" floppies written on a Zilog MCZ; all read just fine. At least they seem to have lasted longer than the hardware that produced them--or for that matter, human memory of > the box. > If there was any of the development system software in the pile, can it be released? From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 22 20:12:51 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:12:51 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5085EF13.2020707@verizon.net> On 10/22/2012 08:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:03 PM -0700 10/22/12, mc68010 wrote: >> Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 > > Wow! I'm not sure what it is, though I believe the LA75 is quite a > bit newer than the rest of it. > > Zane > > It is indeed a Vt180 and there is only half the story there. Vt100 was 8085 the Vt180 board was Z80. OS is CP/M V2.2. The LA75 is about 1986 or about 5-6 years after the Vt180. It is newer than the Vt180 though it will work well with it. I have two of them one a genuine VT185 (VT100, VT125, V180). Allison From marcogb at xs4all.nl Mon Oct 22 20:20:43 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 03:20:43 +0200 Subject: WTT: HP rx2620 ("Montecito") for an HP zx2000 In-Reply-To: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> References: <50820089.8080806@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5085F0EB.1030704@xs4all.nl> Is anyone perhaps interested in trading a zx2000 for an rx2620? An rx2620 with "Montecito" (dual-core, hyperthreading, VT-x, etc.), no less! So you could run HPVM (also known as Integrity VM) and run mulitple virtualized VMS 'guests'. That's 4 cores, 4 threads (so 8 logical processors, pretty much), compared to the single-core processor of a zx2000. I've recently put my rx2620s up for sale, which would leave me Integrity-less and I'd still like to run VMS I64. A zx2000 would be better for me, considering the lower power consumption and that I wouldn't need a lot of processing power. This is what I can offer for a zx2000: - 2 * Intel Itanium 9015 (SL9PC, released in 2007), "Montecito"dual-core and hyperthreading processors with VT-x at 1400 MHz with 12 Mbytes cache (400 MHz FSB), installed last year (brand-new out of the box); - 8 Gbytes ECC-registered DDR-SDRAM; - HP iLO/MP card, with on-board ATi Radeon 7000 and SSH license; - LSI 1030 dual-channel Ultra320 SCSI on-board, with additional external HD68 connector; - Intel i82546 dual GbE NIC on-board; - HP rx2620 4-slot PCI-X card cage (also have one with an AGP slot and three PCI-X slots, as seen in the zx6000 notably); - HP rx2620 650 watt hot-swap PSU (one extra available); - HP slimline DVD-ROM drive. Let me know if you're interested. - MG From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 20:30:14 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:30:14 -0700 Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards Message-ID: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> So, here's a fun one: See the picture(s) here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/ This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what seemed at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff rattling around inside so I opened it up before doing anything else and what I seem to have is a few large mineral deposits on the main circuit board. It's pretty well localized,and aside from a completely dissolved drive support post and a few rusted screws there really isn't all that much rust(amazingly). And thankfully the corrosion that's present has almost entirely avoided any custom ASICs or other parts on board. Everything else in the system aside from the bad patches in the pictures is clean (although the whole thing smells like a dank basement, geeI wonder why) and the underside is almost corrosion free so there's a non-zero chance I could get this running again. Except I have no idea how to go about removing the buildup of... crud... on this thing. It's pretty solid, I've soaked it for a few minutes in water and chiseled at it (gently) with the tip of an xacto knife and I got some of it off that way but it's very slow goingand I'm afraid of removing what's left of whatever's underneath it before I can identify it. Any tips for removing this stuff? (Also, as an aside -- my mails to this list are clearly making it to the list, but I never see my own posts/responses anymore... any ideas?) Thanks, Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 22 20:38:39 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:38:39 -0600 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085EF13.2020707@verizon.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085EF13.2020707@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5085F51F.5050402@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > Vt100 was 8085 Did they redesign it to use the 8085? All of them I've ever seen used the 8080A. > the Vt180 board was Z80. In addition to the terminal processor, which was still an 8080A. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Oct 22 21:07:31 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 22:07:31 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085F51F.5050402@brouhaha.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085EF13.2020707@verizon.net> <5085F51F.5050402@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5085FBE3.6010506@verizon.net> On 10/22/2012 09:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> Vt100 was 8085 > > Did they redesign it to use the 8085? All of them I've ever seen used > the 8080A. > > Actually the 8085 version of the VT100 as the VT103 and some VT100s that got the same board. >> the Vt180 board was Z80. > > In addition to the terminal processor, which was still an 8080A. > The total VT180 used the base VT100 (or 103) terminal board with a change in the paddle board for interboard IO. the VT180 is a complete Z80, 64K, 4 serial ports, 1793 FDC and a few other things like a a real interrupt structure and heartbeat clock (it's able to be run stand alone with a few simple mods). Its one of the few CP/M systems that actually runs using interrupts for IO. To make the above into the mythical Vt185 was to add the VT125 board set and the hyper scarce VT185 paddle board (the IO interface for the VT180 console, Vt125 and vt100). I have that as I was in the terminals and printing systems groupat DEC. This is why I have two, a vanilla VT180 and the 185. I also have two modded Vt180 boards running standalone with any terminal and one I souped up to run at 6mhz and added two sided capability via wire and bios mods for two side and 80 tracks using 3.5" floppy (they fit the RX180 drive boxes using drive adaptor plates 4 drives one box and 4x storage per drive 781KB). When the Vt180 is in terminal mode, the Vt180 passes data from the VT100 to the VT180 terminal port and of course the reverse. The (ep)roms did two things diagnostics at the terminal level and the VT180 level. The paddle board does a few things, share baud generation and rate for some of the ports on the VT180 and it also brings up the terminal reset signal to the VT180. This allows the VT100 setup function to set all the ports and the terminal specifics as well. The closest analogue is the Heath H19 terminal -> H89 computer. Allison From jimpdavis at gorge.net Mon Oct 22 21:14:39 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:14:39 -0700 Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards In-Reply-To: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: Does that first image show a "B-1" on the riser card? It appears battery "B-1" self-destructed. I see some leads, But no battery. - jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 6:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards So, here's a fun one: See the picture(s) here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/ This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what seemed at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff rattling around inside so I opened it up before doing anything else and what I seem to have is a few large mineral deposits on the main circuit board. Any tips for removing this stuff? (Also, as an aside -- my mails to this list are clearly making it to the list, but I never see my own posts/responses anymore... any ideas?) Thanks, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 21:16:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:16:44 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5085EF07.9050600@bitsavers.org> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085ED3E.7040109@sydex.com> <5085EF07.9050600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5085FE0C.9070403@sydex.com> On 10/22/2012 06:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 10/22/12 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'm running a batch of ZDOS 8" floppies written on a Zilog MCZ; all >> read just fine. At least they seem to have lasted longer than the >> hardware that produced them--or for that matter, human memory of >> the box. >> > > If there was any of the development system software in the pile, can it > be released? Sorry Al, no development system disks, just customer data. Weird format, though--132-byte sectors. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 22 21:18:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:18:29 -0700 Subject: examing disk platters was Re: Microscopes In-Reply-To: <5085EF07.9050600@bitsavers.org> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <201210210251.WAA17562@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508385F6.4060202@sydex.com> <1350944577.17737.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5085DABE.4050400@sydex.com> <1350950601.20891.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022171437.Y47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085ED3E.7040109@sydex.com> <5085EF07.9050600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5085FE75.8050500@sydex.com> On 10/22/2012 06:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If there was any of the development system software in the pile, can it > be released? As a matter of fact, I was just given the disks with the customer knowing nothing about how or what produced them. I had to sort of suss that out from clues I found. (Nothing as simple as "Zilog" on the disk, BTW). --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 21:21:55 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:21:55 -0700 Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5085FF43.4010003@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 7:14 PM, jim davis wrote: > Does that first image show a "B-1" on the riser card? > It appears battery "B-1" self-destructed. I see some leads, But no battery. > > - jim Yes, there was a battery there that had leaked, I snipped it off before taking the pictures. This appears to have reacted in an interesting way with the GRiD's casing (a fact that I just noticed while cleaning it up) which may explain the interesting deposits. Perhaps it's the magnesium the case is made of? (Not a chemistry buff.) I'm not seeing typical battery corrosion here, thankfully. Josh > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 6:30 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards > > > So, here's a fun one: > > See the picture(s) here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/ > > This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what seemed > at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff rattling around > inside so I opened it up before doing anything else and what I seem to > have is a few large mineral deposits on the main circuit board. > > Any tips for removing this stuff? > > (Also, as an aside -- my mails to this list are clearly making it to the > list, but I never see my own posts/responses anymore... any ideas?) > > Thanks, > Josh > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 22 21:56:00 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: from Adrian Graham at "Oct 21, 12 11:29:11 pm" Message-ID: <201210230256.q9N2u0Dx17694778@floodgap.com> > > OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] > > %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 > > > > %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT > > Bizarre, even missing DECnet/OSI configs (which is what that error points > to) shouldn't cause a crash. > > Time for a conversational boot. At the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) do B/1 > > You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to > continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product > show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. So I did this. First time through, it appeared to boot happily and asked for the date and time, let me log in, and then crashed, so I never got to the point where I could PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. Next and all subsequent times through, it crashes at the same point above without even getting to a Username: prompt, MIN or conversational boot or otherwise. Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FOOLS! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL! ASK ME HOW! -- "Girl Genius" 8/29/07 -------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 22:02:28 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:02:28 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230256.q9N2u0Dx17694778@floodgap.com> References: <201210230256.q9N2u0Dx17694778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <508608C4.7010600@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 7:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the > SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? Is there a reason not to reach for the CD ? Other than the challenge of course. I'd just install 7.3 since you probably want to anyway. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 22 22:07:26 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <508608C4.7010600@gmail.com> from mc68010 at "Oct 22, 12 08:02:28 pm" Message-ID: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the > > SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? > > Is there a reason not to reach for the CD ? Other than the challenge of > course. I'd just install 7.3 since you probably want to anyway. I thought the VAXes were limited to 7.2. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 22:13:56 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:13:56 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> References: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50860B74.9000105@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 8:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I thought the VAXes were limited to 7.2. Thankfully only 7.3 which is pretty solid. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Oct 22 22:15:22 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> References: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the >>> SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? >> >> Is there a reason not to reach for the CD ? Other than the challenge of >> course. I'd just install 7.3 since you probably want to anyway. > > I thought the VAXes were limited to 7.2. OpenVMS 7.3 was the last VAX version. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 22:15:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:15:39 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> References: <201210230307.q9N37QM79764894@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the >>> SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? >> >> Is there a reason not to reach for the CD ? Other than the challenge of >> course. I'd just install 7.3 since you probably want to anyway. > > I thought the VAXes were limited to 7.2. Speaking as a total VMS newbie, 7.3 is what the VMS Hobbyist folks distribute for VAX. I think VAX is limited to 7.x, but I'll stop somewhat short of just declaring that. :-) In any case, I was able to do 7.3 from the CD just fine on SIMH, so you'll probably be OK. - Dave From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 22 22:29:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: from David Riley at "Oct 22, 12 11:15:39 pm" Message-ID: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> > >>> Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the > >>> SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? > >> > >> Is there a reason not to reach for the CD ? Other than the challenge of > >> course. I'd just install 7.3 since you probably want to anyway. > > > > I thought the VAXes were limited to 7.2. > > Speaking as a total VMS newbie, 7.3 is what the VMS Hobbyist folks > distribute for VAX. I think VAX is limited to 7.x, but I'll stop > somewhat short of just declaring that. :-) > > In any case, I was able to do 7.3 from the CD just fine on SIMH, > so you'll probably be OK. Assuming that's so, what about the port? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Some days you're the bug, and some days you're the windshield. ------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 22:50:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:50:08 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> References: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2E35E7EA-EAAA-4B65-AB54-9550F445BD46@gmail.com> On Oct 22, 2012, at 11:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> In any case, I was able to do 7.3 from the CD just fine on SIMH, >> so you'll probably be OK. > > Assuming that's so, what about the port? Well, SIMH doesn't have that problem. But some Googling (it was a little buried) turns up this: http://www.vanade.com/~blc/DS3100/pinouts.html#extscsi Of course, most people don't want to make their own HD68 SCSI cables, so you may need to find one instead. - Dave From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:06:07 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 00:06:07 -0400 Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: <5085E48A.7070208@neurotica.com> References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> <20121023000312.GB23188@thangorodrim.de> <5085E48A.7070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 22 October 2012 20:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/22/2012 08:03 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>>> explain your "screen graffiti" comment - google wasn't much help. what >>>> do you mean by that? >>> >>> 20 years ago, some stations started putting their logo in the lower right >>> corner of the screen, called a "bug". Then, sometimes they would put an >>> announcement or ad for a show. Then, an animated ad. Now, they sometimes >>> even have sound with the animated ads! >> >> *hualp* >> >> *sounds of sudden projectile vomiting* > > Yep. > They can't be *THAT* bad... Let me see what it's like... Welp, having just watched some TV I can safely say with total confidence that the following is my opinion of those... lovely... advertisements: BURN THEM! BURN ALL OF THEM! THEY MUST BURN IN THE FIREY PITS OF HELL! BURN! BURN! BURN! >> And people wonder why I still haven't found a reason to use the idiots >> lantern ... > > !!!! > > I'd never heard that term before. It's great! > Good term for it. Luckily most of my TV watching happens to be stuff that was on my PC. Or a giant display of the UNSUPP$:STATUS.TSK program in RSTS/E 10.1; because eh, what the hell, right? >>> Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. >> >> And then we can force-feed them cyanide, burn their remains, bury their >> ashes together with highly radioactive waste and salt the ground that >> spawned them. One can't be too careful. > > Don't forget the cat pee and the fire ants. > Needs more more thermonuclear fire, and being launched into the sun, in my opinion. Cheers, Christian From mc68010 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:12:47 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:12:47 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> References: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5086193F.1090909@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 8:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Assuming that's so, what about the port? The cabling is all 50 pin inside. Well, except where the breakouts connects to the boards. Open the case and put a cdrom drive on there. Install what you want. Then take it off and close it back up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 23:14:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cluelessness, Re: Our Museum Need a special help.. In-Reply-To: References: <5076E741.1010601@neurotica.com> <5076F52A.7020608@neurotica.com> <20121011211022.GA22713@RawFedDogs.net> <5077498E.2070200@att.net> <20121011154440.J68389@shell.lmi.net> <20121023000312.GB23188@thangorodrim.de> <5085E48A.7070208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121022211315.S56742@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Those who do so need to be fed a strong diet of DDT. > >> And then we can force-feed them cyanide, burn their remains, bury their > >> ashes together with highly radioactive waste and salt the ground that > >> spawned them. One can't be too careful. > > Don't forget the cat pee and the fire ants. On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Needs more more thermonuclear fire, and being launched into the sun, > in my opinion. I've always liked one of Leela's comments in Futurama: L: ". . . fired." F: "Well, that doesn't sound so bad." L: "Out of a cannon. Into the sun." From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:17:01 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:17:01 -0500 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 > > It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! Nice indeed. I guess I have bits of that system...a VT100 (minus the crucial guts to make it a VT180,) the floppy unit and, most interestingly to me, the modem. Does anyone know if that modem (DF03) was ever sold to customers? The one I have is marked "DEC service part only, not for resale" and, from what I could gather, was the service tandem on an 11/780 box (I could be wrong on the model there as it came from a large datacenter of multiple generations of DEC equipment.) Noting that the seller says he got the 180 setup from a DEC employee, this theory isn't contradicted. -- jht From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Oct 22 23:29:18 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:29:18 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5086193F.1090909@gmail.com> References: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> <5086193F.1090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:12 PM, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/22/2012 8:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> Assuming that's so, what about the port? > > The cabling is all 50 pin inside. Well, except where the breakouts connects > to the boards. Open the case and put a cdrom drive on there. Install what > you want. Then take it off and close it back up. I initially went that route and attached a bare SCSI CD-ROM to the internal 50-pin cable just long enough to install VMS from a CD. Eventually I bought one of these so I could use external SCSI devices: Digital Equipment Corp. (DEC) BC56H-03 Cable Assembly in Refurbished Condition http://www.ebay.com/itm/300646553857 US $30.00, free shipping (see also http://antinode.info/dec/vs3100_scsi.html) From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 22 23:48:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 21:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: from Glen Slick at "Oct 22, 12 09:29:18 pm" Message-ID: <201210230448.q9N4mRBJ17694776@floodgap.com> > >> Assuming that's so, what about the port? > > > > The cabling is all 50 pin inside. Well, except where the breakouts connects > > to the boards. Open the case and put a cdrom drive on there. Install what > > you want. Then take it off and close it back up. > > I initially went that route and attached a bare SCSI CD-ROM to the > internal 50-pin cable just long enough to install VMS from a CD. > > Eventually I bought one of these so I could use external SCSI devices: I think I'd rather go that way. Will it work with an Apple external CD-ROM? (The CD-ROM works great with my SGI Indy, so I imagine it does; and this site implies so also: http://sites.inka.de/pcde/dec-cdrom-list.txt ) Thanks for the link. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Oct 22 23:50:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 22:50:42 -0600 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Nice indeed. I guess I have bits of that system...a VT100 (minus the > crucial guts to make it a VT180,) The Computer Graphics Museum has a complete VT180 system with two dual floppy drive units like the one pictured in the auction. The museum doesn't have the printer or the modem shown, however. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 00:37:36 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 22:37:36 -0700 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50862D20.8040303@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 9:17 PM, Jason T wrote: > Nice indeed. I guess I have bits of that system...a VT100 (minus the > crucial guts to make it a VT180,) the floppy unit and, most > interestingly to me, the modem. Does anyone know if that modem (DF03) > was ever sold to customers? The one I have is marked "DEC service part > only, not for resale" and, from what I could gather, was the service > tandem on an 11/780 box (I could be wrong on the model there as it > came from a large datacenter of multiple generations of DEC > equipment.) Noting that the seller says he got the 180 setup from a > DEC employee, this theory isn't contradicted. That modem is the best part to me. Never seen one before. It's adorable. It's like something you would buy at a gift shop after doing the DEC factory tour. Press the buttons and the lid pops open you get candy. From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 00:39:32 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 05:39:32 +0000 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it or not. I will ask him. -Dave On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. > > Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. > -----Original Message----- > From: Brent Hilpert > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >> >> After a lot of Google I found this: >> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) > > Bad characters in the url. Try this: > http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ > > 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it > seems. > > >> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >> >> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >> > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Oct 23 00:43:01 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 06:43:01 +0100 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E5C9CF416CD4CE38478BB2A7F02D96F@MailBox> It looks like a VT100 that has been upgraded to VT180. The outer plastic cover on the chassis rear opening is missing. I can't remember what was in the kit. Either the new back chassis cover is missing along with a new VT180 logo or they were not part of the kit. The old cover would not have had the correct cutouts. The line up is really nice. I have an LA75 and they work well. The DF03 is also scarce. $300 is cheap!!! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 23 October 2012 01:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: Subject: Re: This is a VT180 right ? At 5:03 PM -0700 10/22/12, mc68010 wrote: >Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 Wow! I'm not sure what it is, though I believe the LA75 is quite a bit newer than the rest of it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From tpresence at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 19:40:20 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 18:40:20 -0600 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: , , <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com>, <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net>, <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com>, Message-ID: It is a VT180. The vt180 has two personalities. Its a dumb terminal when in vt100 mode, and a computer system when in vt180 mode. The vt18x series has a Zilog z80 (cpm) processor on board and could run CP/M programs. Dual RX180s...neat. Pres > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 17:25:08 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Re: This is a VT180 right ? > > At 5:03 PM -0700 10/22/12, mc68010 wrote: > >Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. > > > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 > > Wow! I'm not sure what it is, though I believe the LA75 is quite a > bit newer than the rest of it. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Tue Oct 23 01:04:20 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs Message-ID: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old pre-internet Online services both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later? --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Oct 23 01:28:48 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:28:48 +0100 Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 23 October 2012 07:04, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old pre-internet Online services > both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later? For videotex (aka videotext/viewdata), my website - www.viewdata.org.uk - has a lot of (UK biased) information on it, including some "webified" versions of what little data I've been able to find. (I have a pile of documentation on Viatel, the Australian service, but not got that online yet.) I do have my old 1980s BBS still complete and working, but unfortunately due to builders having been in, it's all boxed up at the moment ... http://www.ccl4.org/ might still be online, but you need Java enabled to access it which I've not got so can't check. Software wise, you can try finding a copy of CommunITel, and run it on BeebEm, if you don't have an actual BBC Micro - this is what was used in schools to teach kids how to set up and run local systems so it's pretty straightforward. (I've got several copies, but see previous note re boxes..) If anybody ever finds a copy of the original server-side software developed by the GPO/BT that Prestel itself, Viatel, Bildschirmtext or anyone else they sold it to ran on, please please let me know. Rob From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 23 01:38:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 01:38:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards In-Reply-To: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> References: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > So, here's a fun one: > > See the picture(s) here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/ > > This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what seemed > at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff rattling around > inside so I opened it up before doing anything else and what I seem to > have is a few large mineral deposits on the main circuit board. > > It's pretty well localized,and aside from a completely dissolved drive > support post and a few rusted screws there really isn't all that much > rust(amazingly). And thankfully the corrosion that's present has almost > entirely avoided any custom ASICs or other parts on board. Everything > else in the system aside from the bad patches in the pictures is clean > (although the whole thing smells like a dank basement, geeI wonder why) > and the underside is almost corrosion free so there's a non-zero chance > I could get this running again. Except I have no idea how to go about > removing the buildup of... crud... on this thing. It's pretty solid, > I've soaked it for a few minutes in water and chiseled at it (gently) > with the tip of an xacto knife and I got some of it off that way but > it's very slow goingand I'm afraid of removing what's left of whatever's > underneath it before I can identify it. > > Any tips for removing this stuff? Yuk. Still, I've seen far worse :) Vinegar and a toothbrush for neutralizing the battery electrolyte and removing the loose corrosion, then rinse it off really well with water (hot water and a sink sprayer). I usually remove any remaining corrosion with baking soda and water formed into a paste, again using a toothbrush, followed by another rinse. You might have to do this several times and remove the socketed chips after an initial cleaning. This sounds harsh (and is pretty messy), but when you have a board that looks like that, this is usually what it takes to clean it up. In the past I've successfully savaged PC boards and test equipment that had been under 20ft+ of water for more than two weeks due to flooding (the on-board batteries had of course also burst and the corrosion was severe). From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Oct 23 01:43:57 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:43:57 +0100 Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> Tony and Rik, Can you guys just sanity check something? A colleague was scratching his head with this, so it seemed sensible to ask. On the mains input cable to the power supply, for 240 v external supply, what's the test voltage we should see across each pair? BTW Tony, thanks again for your advice on the PERQ. It's been a working display for a couple of weeks now. I still on the lookout for an engaging app to demo. At the moment its just running Spy. -- Colin From technobug at comcast.net Tue Oct 23 01:51:59 2012 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 23:51:59 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 19:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor versio [cut] >>> %DECnet-I-LOADED, network base image loaded, version = 05.0D.00 >>> >>> %DECnet-W-NOOPEN, could not open SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSEXE]NET$CONFIG.DAT >> >> Bizarre, even missing DECnet/OSI configs (which is what that error points >> to) shouldn't cause a crash. >> >> Time for a conversational boot. At the dead sergeant prompt (>>>) do B/1 >> >> You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to >> continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product >> show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. > > So I did this. First time through, it appeared to boot happily and asked > for the date and time, let me log in, and then crashed, so I never got to > the point where I could PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. > > Next and all subsequent times through, it crashes at the same point above > without even getting to a Username: prompt, MIN or conversational boot or > otherwise. > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI > port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? Are you assuming the hardware is operating properly? I went through this a while back with one of my VAX Station 3520s. I could sometimes boot to a usable point, but then crash - normally, it wouldn't make it that far. I put a known good drive in and attempted to load a new version of VMS. It would get partially through and then crash. Turned out that a +5 volt supply had nearly 0.5 V of ripple. Changing a few caps in the power supply fixed things up... ->CRC From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 02:04:52 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:04:52 -0500 Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards In-Reply-To: References: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: how did gear wind up 20 feet underwater? On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:38 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So, here's a fun one: >> >> See the picture(s) here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/**scratch/gridcase/ >> >> This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what seemed >> at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff rattling around >> inside so I opened it up before doing anything else and what I seem to have >> is a few large mineral deposits on the main circuit board. >> >> It's pretty well localized,and aside from a completely dissolved drive >> support post and a few rusted screws there really isn't all that much >> rust(amazingly). And thankfully the corrosion that's present has almost >> entirely avoided any custom ASICs or other parts on board. Everything else >> in the system aside from the bad patches in the pictures is clean (although >> the whole thing smells like a dank basement, geeI wonder why) and the >> underside is almost corrosion free so there's a non-zero chance I could get >> this running again. Except I have no idea how to go about removing the >> buildup of... crud... on this thing. It's pretty solid, I've soaked it for >> a few minutes in water and chiseled at it (gently) with the tip of an xacto >> knife and I got some of it off that way but it's very slow goingand I'm >> afraid of removing what's left of whatever's underneath it before I can >> identify it. >> >> Any tips for removing this stuff? >> > > Yuk. Still, I've seen far worse :) > > Vinegar and a toothbrush for neutralizing the battery electrolyte and > removing the loose corrosion, then rinse it off really well with water (hot > water and a sink sprayer). I usually remove any remaining corrosion with > baking soda and water formed into a paste, again using a toothbrush, > followed by another rinse. You might have to do this several times and > remove the socketed chips after an initial cleaning. > > This sounds harsh (and is pretty messy), but when you have a board that > looks like that, this is usually what it takes to clean it up. In the past > I've successfully savaged PC boards and test equipment that had been under > 20ft+ of water for more than two weeks due to flooding (the on-board > batteries had of course also burst and the corrosion was severe). > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 23 02:31:43 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:31:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available Message-ID: I have a large number of surplus DE9F to 8P8C (RJ45) adapters available if someone can use some. I counted at least 350, but I'm not sure of the exact number. When I bought them many years ago, I was expecting to get adapters that had all 8 wires present (based on the photo the seller provided) but what he sent me were pre-wired and three of the wires are clipped away down inside the adapter body. (It might be possible to extend those three wires, but I didn't want to spend the time on it.) The adapters are labeled with a "PC" sticker, so I have to assume they were originally used to connect to a PC serial port of some sort. (Mixed in with these were a handful of DE9M to 8P8C adapters labeled "UPS" that have 5 wires similarly clipped away). These are located on the US side of the pond, and whoever might want some will have to cover the postage. I don't think these adapters are really worth very much, although I certainly won't complain if someone wants to pay something for some of them and help offset my original purchase cost. I didn't pay /too/ much for them, although I doubt I'd have bought them at all had the seller been up front about what he had. If these adapters sound useful at all I can see about taking some photos and a work up the pinout. I just really can't see me ever using ~350 of these things :) From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 02:46:11 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:46:11 +0100 Subject: Flossie makes the news ICT 1301 Message-ID: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20031487 Dave Caroline From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 23 03:52:07 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 03:52:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Richard wrote: > Jason T writes: > >> Nice indeed. I guess I have bits of that system...a VT100 (minus the >> crucial guts to make it a VT180,) > > The Computer Graphics Museum has a complete VT180 system with two dual > floppy drive units like the one pictured in the auction. The museum > doesn't have the printer or the modem shown, however. There are still some DF03's out there. I spotted one on eBay awhile back that was listed for ~$30 with no takers. I have one on my shelf of modems too, along with a DF129. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Oct 23 05:29:11 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:29:11 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20121023102911.GA21830@thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 02:43:50PM -0400, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. > > Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it > increases security to block it. Some (clueless) people believe that. But there are still people around who actually understand networking. For instance, the Google public DNS servers respond to ping just fine (which is why "ping 8.8.8.8" is one of my simpler "is external connectivity working" tests). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Oct 23 06:05:53 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:05:53 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <20121023102911.GA21830@thangorodrim.de> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20121023102911.GA21830@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201210231105.q9NB5raf032324@ls-al.eu> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 02:43:50PM -0400, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > Do you actually get a response from a telnet to 93.104.238.74? I > > > don't--it times out. Likewise, a ping fails. > > > > Ping fails everywhere these days. For some reason people think it > > increases security to block it. > > Some (clueless) people believe that. But there are still people around who > actually understand networking. For instance, the Google public DNS servers > respond to ping just fine (which is why "ping 8.8.8.8" is one of my simpler > "is external connectivity working" tests). > And back on-topic (which I've missed apparently), ssh seems to work just fine. I guess they've cancelled the telnet service. re, Sander From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 06:18:29 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 07:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/22/2012 08:03 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 > > It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! Looks like the one I gave away the other year... Some guy named Dave ended up with it IIRC :-). -- From spedraja at ono.com Tue Oct 23 06:40:09 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:40:09 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: <201210231105.q9NB5raf032324@ls-al.eu> References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20121023102911.GA21830@thangorodrim.de> <201210231105.q9NB5raf032324@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: I connect using SSH. The problem is the lack of started systems once you pass through the door. Regards Sergio > And back on-topic (which I've missed apparently), ssh seems to work just fine. > I guess they've cancelled the telnet service. > > re, > > Sander From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 23 06:57:17 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 05:57:17 -0600 Subject: Blog: Scanning Documents with Limited Colors for Optical Character Recognition Message-ID: Please post comments on the blog, thanks. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Oct 23 07:01:53 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:01:53 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber... down ? In-Reply-To: References: <50785E7A.5070105@sydex.com> <20121012184350.9D8ACA5826D@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <20121023102911.GA21830@thangorodrim.de> <201210231105.q9NB5raf032324@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <201210231201.q9NC1r23015648@ls-al.eu> SPC wrote: > > I connect using SSH. The problem is the lack of started systems once > you pass through the door. > Did not know that. Hadn't heard of the site till that last message :) And that seemed to be about not being able to telnet to the login server. There's nothing running anymore? Was just about to sign up, tbh. re, Sander From reiche at ls-al.eu Tue Oct 23 07:13:06 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:13:06 +0200 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: <201210230329.q9N3Tot517694916@floodgap.com> <5086193F.1090909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201210231213.q9NCD6TN027612@ls-al.eu> Glen Slick wrote: > > Eventually I bought one of these so I could use external SCSI devices: > > Digital Equipment Corp. (DEC) BC56H-03 Cable Assembly in Refurbished Condition > http://www.ebay.com/itm/300646553857 > US $30.00, free shipping > LOL, "Shipping: $153.34 UPS Worldwide Saver". re, Sander From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 23 08:22:02 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 06:22:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: from CRC at "Oct 22, 12 11:51:59 pm" Message-ID: <201210231322.q9NDM2Ql17825958@floodgap.com> > > So I did this. First time through, it appeared to boot happily and asked > > for the date and time, let me log in, and then crashed, so I never got to > > the point where I could PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. > > > > Next and all subsequent times through, it crashes at the same point above > > without even getting to a Username: prompt, MIN or conversational boot or > > otherwise. > > > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI > > port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? > > Are you assuming the hardware is operating properly? I went through this > a while back with one of my VAX Station 3520s. I could sometimes boot to > a usable point, but then crash - normally, it wouldn't make it that far. I > put a known good drive in and attempted to load a new version of VMS. It > would get partially through and then crash. > > Turned out that a +5 volt supply had nearly 0.5 V of ripple. Changing a > few caps in the power supply fixed things up... I'm assuming so since the crash is consistent (it always crashes at the same point in boot now, although I guess it could also be doing something with a faulty component predictably at that point also). Are power supply, or other, failures common with the VAXstations? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The moon may be smaller than the Earth, but it's farther away. ------------- From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 09:23:19 2012 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:23:19 -0400 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: The set of manuals regarding the PDP-14 on BitSavers give a somewhat good overview of the architecture. Looks like a really cool machine to play with. Took 120VAC or 10-55VDC inputs, the outputs were similar. Also based on the manual, looks like wire rope ROM and R/W core were available for the machine at the same time. (Would kind of make sense. Put in ROM some code that never changes about the machine, and put in RAM a more mutable control program.) Now, for some ClassicCmp blasphemy... who feels like making one in Minecraft? :P (In both "discrete" redstone, and/or as a completely standalone mod, with an associated PDP-8/e to program it.) Cheers, Christian On 23 October 2012 01:39, wrote: > Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. > > Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it > when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it > or not. I will ask him. > > -Dave > > On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. >> >> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brent Hilpert >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >> >> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >>> >>> After a lot of Google I found this: >>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) >> >> Bad characters in the url. Try this: >> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ >> >> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it >> seems. >> >> >>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >>> >>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >>> >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 10:03:01 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:03:01 -0500 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: repliaca in minecraft what? confused (knows what minecraft is never used it) On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > The set of manuals regarding the PDP-14 on BitSavers give a somewhat > good overview of the architecture. Looks like a really cool machine to > play with. Took 120VAC or 10-55VDC inputs, the outputs were similar. > > Also based on the manual, looks like wire rope ROM and R/W core were > available for the machine at the same time. (Would kind of make sense. > Put in ROM some code that never changes about the machine, and put in > RAM a more mutable control program.) > > > Now, for some ClassicCmp blasphemy... who feels like making one in > Minecraft? :P (In both "discrete" redstone, and/or as a completely > standalone mod, with an associated PDP-8/e to program it.) > > > Cheers, > Christian > > > > > On 23 October 2012 01:39, wrote: > > Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick > message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're > 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I > noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. > > > > Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone > not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make > up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost > me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a > large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few > texas museums that might be interested. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Dave McGuire > > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 > > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts< > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > > > > I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it > > when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it > > or not. I will ask him. > > > > -Dave > > > > On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > >> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife > may notice them. > >> > >> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not > likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the > best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Brent Hilpert > >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts< > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > >> > >> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no > >>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 > >>> > >>> After a lot of Google I found this: > >>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) > >> > >> Bad characters in the url. Try this: > >> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ > >> > >> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it > >> seems. > >> > >> > >>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: > >>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php > >>> > >>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. > >>> > >> > > > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > > New Kensington, PA > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 10:03:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:03:44 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5086B1D0.4020103@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 07:18 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 >> >> It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! > > Looks like the one I gave away the other year... Some guy named Dave > ended up with it IIRC :-). Yes! Via Will and then Sridhar I think, right? Man that feels like forever ago. :-) I've finally gotten the paddle board, just a few months ago, and now I need to find (or more likely make) a drive cable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 10:06:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:06:58 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5086B292.3080103@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 12:17 AM, Jason T wrote: >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 >> >> It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! > > Nice indeed. I guess I have bits of that system...a VT100 (minus the > crucial guts to make it a VT180,) the floppy unit and, most > interestingly to me, the modem. Does anyone know if that modem (DF03) > was ever sold to customers? The one I have is marked "DEC service > part only, not for resale" and, from what I could gather, was the > service tandem on an 11/780 box (I could be wrong on the model there > as it came from a large datacenter of multiple generations of DEC > equipment.) > > Noting that the seller says he got the 180 setup from a DEC employee, > this theory isn't contradicted. Oh yes, DF03s were definitely sold to customers. Heck, they were even sold through retail stores (including the one I worked at as an after-school job decades ago) that were DEC dealers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 10:30:27 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:30:27 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210230256.q9N2u0Dx17694778@floodgap.com> References: <201210230256.q9N2u0Dx17694778@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5086B813.2090403@neurotica.com> On 10/22/2012 10:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You'll get a SYSBOOT> prompt. Type 'set startup_p1 "min"' then C to >> continue. This will at least get you running. Once logged in do 'product >> show product' and give us the output. DECnet is obviously not happy. > > So I did this. First time through, it appeared to boot happily and asked > for the date and time, let me log in, and then crashed, so I never got to > the point where I could PRODUCT SHOW PRODUCT. > > Next and all subsequent times through, it crashes at the same point above > without even getting to a Username: prompt, MIN or conversational boot or > otherwise. > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI > port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? It's either a hardware failure or a badly corrupted system disk. Unless there's stuff on there that you need to recover, you're wasting your time...just do a fresh install. Do you have a VMS distribution on CD? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 10:41:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:41:20 -0400 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5086BAA0.9020101@neurotica.com> I just heard back from my local friend; he is definitely going to grab them. They will go to a good home. -Dave On 10/23/2012 01:39 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. > > Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it > when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it > or not. I will ask him. > > -Dave > > On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. >> >> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brent Hilpert >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >> >> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >>> >>> After a lot of Google I found this: >>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) >> >> Bad characters in the url. Try this: >> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ >> >> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it >> seems. >> >> >>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >>> >>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >>> >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 11:20:19 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:20:19 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5086B1D0.4020103@neurotica.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> <5086B1D0.4020103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5086C3C3.4020204@verizon.net> On 10/23/2012 11:03 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/23/2012 07:18 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>>> Pretty sweet setup. I wish I was rich. >>>> >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221144219721 >>> It is in fact a VT180. VERY nice!! And not at all a bad price! >> Looks like the one I gave away the other year... Some guy named Dave >> ended up with it IIRC :-). > Yes! Via Will and then Sridhar I think, right? Man that feels like > forever ago. :-) > > I've finally gotten the paddle board, just a few months ago, and now I > need to find (or more likely make) a drive cable. > > -Dave > I may have one of those floating around.. Have to hunt for it. I also have spares (vt180 boards, Vt100 boards, Vt125 board set) for mine. Actually years ago (1985) I bought a box of VT180 boards for $25 all good but none of the other kit. I use them standalone as mods needed to make them run without the VT100 are trivial and its a good 4mhz Z80 CP/M platform for project and things. Allison From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 23 12:15:44 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5086B813.2090403@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 23, 12 11:30:27 am" Message-ID: <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI > > port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? > > It's either a hardware failure or a badly corrupted system disk. I certainly hope it's the latter! > Unless there's stuff on there that you need to recover, you're wasting > your time...just do a fresh install. Do you have a VMS distribution on CD? CDs came with it; I haven't examined them. I should make sure they work in simh, so the G5 is industriously compiling simh as I type this. (Can simh netboot the 3100?) I also ordered a SCSI cable as per Glen's link, so we'll try getting it running again when the cable arrives. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. ---- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 12:42:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:42:58 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> References: <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5086D722.6060405@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 01:15 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI >>> port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? >> >> It's either a hardware failure or a badly corrupted system disk. > > I certainly hope it's the latter! > >> Unless there's stuff on there that you need to recover, you're wasting >> your time...just do a fresh install. Do you have a VMS distribution on CD? > > CDs came with it; I haven't examined them. What release? (when you can examine them) > I should make sure they work in > simh, so the G5 is industriously compiling simh as I type this. (Can simh > netboot the 3100?) I also ordered a SCSI cable as per Glen's link, so we'll > try getting it running again when the cable arrives. You should be able to netboot a physical machine via a simh-based machine. Much easier to just hook up a CDROM drive, though. I'd remove the lid and use that trick. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 12:56:32 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:56:32 +0000 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <5086BAA0.9020101@neurotica.com> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5086BAA0.9020101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1544647354-1351014992-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1200484949-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Awesome. Good luck to him. I'd only be bidding to save them from the trash so he has no competition from me. Out of curiosity what city is your friend in? -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:41:20 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... I just heard back from my local friend; he is definitely going to grab them. They will go to a good home. -Dave On 10/23/2012 01:39 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. > > Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it > when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it > or not. I will ask him. > > -Dave > > On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. >> >> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brent Hilpert >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >> >> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >>> >>> After a lot of Google I found this: >>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) >> >> Bad characters in the url. Try this: >> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ >> >> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it >> seems. >> >> >>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >>> >>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >>> >> > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From useddec at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 13:04:21 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:04:21 -0500 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, If you're bidding on it, I won't. I have a total of 3 14/30s and 14/35s, so I really don't need it, but that box does look nice.I may have some extra boards here. I still have the VT14 (pics posted here a few months ago) and the H1500s, H1550s, H1600, H1650- ssr plug ins- I'm guessing at the part numbers, and the distribution panels and cables. It's not looking good that I will get to play with it in the near future. Paul On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 8:59 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I'd sure like to find more of this hardware, and ANY related software. > I'm trying to score the empty chassis on eBay, but it'll probably go > higher than I can afford right now. I have one complete machine, but > the chassis is kinda banged up. > > Fascinating stuff. > > -Dave > > On 10/22/2012 09:41 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> i would think so >> one just has to go looking around the industrial world in back rooms and >> such >> >> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 11:00 AM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Oct 20, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> >>>> The point was to replace mechanical relay logic. >>>> The PDP-8 was just an embedded controller that gave you a limited >>>> function keyboard and a display that showed you 'ladder logic' that >>>> could be downloaded into the core memory of the Industrial-14 through >>>> a high speed serial port. >>>> >>> >>> Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the >>> pdp-8 still exist? >>> >>> -chuck >>> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Oct 23 13:10:25 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Apple 1 for sale? Message-ID: <1351015825.52388.YahooMailNeo@web113505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Did I miss something or is there another Apple 1 for sale http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2221860/Rare-working-Apple-1-complete-accessories-set-auctioned.html From doc at vaxen.net Tue Oct 23 13:16:23 2012 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:16:23 -0500 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5086D722.6060405@neurotica.com> References: <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> <5086D722.6060405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5086DEF7.5030003@vaxen.net> On 10/23/12 12:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/23/2012 01:15 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the SCSI >>>> port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? >>> >>> It's either a hardware failure or a badly corrupted system disk. >> >> I certainly hope it's the latter! >> >>> Unless there's stuff on there that you need to recover, you're wasting >>> your time...just do a fresh install. Do you have a VMS distribution on CD? >> >> CDs came with it; I haven't examined them. > > What release? (when you can examine them) > >> I should make sure they work in >> simh, so the G5 is industriously compiling simh as I type this. (Can simh >> netboot the 3100?) I also ordered a SCSI cable as per Glen's link, so we'll >> try getting it running again when the cable arrives. > > You should be able to netboot a physical machine via a simh-based > machine. Much easier to just hook up a CDROM drive, though. I'd remove > the lid and use that trick. Um, wait. I've been on vacation, so just very loosely monitoring this thread. Did anybody mention the non-standard *terminator*? The 68-pin terminator on the non-m76 VS 3100s is not "normal", and IIRC is required. Can somebody elaborate, if this hasn't been covered? Doc From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 23 13:28:56 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:28:56 +0200 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20121023202856.59e98f7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 12:00:12 -0400 Charles Dickman wrote: > Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the > pdp-8 still exist? A few years ago a retired DECian exhibited an industrial-14 with the PDP-8 programming frontend at the VCF-Europe. If he is still alive, I am pretty sure that the shown, fully working setup is still around with him. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 13:34:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:34:03 -0400 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <20121023202856.59e98f7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <20121023202856.59e98f7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <5086E31B.5000704@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 02:28 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Does any of the Industrial-14 'ladder logic' programming software for the >> pdp-8 still exist? > A few years ago a retired DECian exhibited an industrial-14 with the > PDP-8 programming frontend at the VCF-Europe. If he is still alive, I > am pretty sure that the shown, fully working setup is still around with > him. Oooh! Do you know who he was, and how to contact him? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 23 14:11:31 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5086DEF7.5030003@vaxen.net> from Doc Shipley at "Oct 23, 12 01:16:23 pm" Message-ID: <201210231911.q9NJBVji16384128@floodgap.com> > I've been on vacation, so just very loosely monitoring this thread. > > Did anybody mention the non-standard *terminator*? The 68-pin > terminator on the non-m76 VS 3100s is not "normal", and IIRC is required. This is an M76. It doesn't need the terminator, does it? (It does not have one.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PRIVACY. IT'S EVERYONE'S BUSINESS. -- Evil, Inc. --------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 15:32:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 13:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics In-Reply-To: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> References: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> Message-ID: <20121023132927.C81498@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Colin Eby wrote: > Can you guys just sanity check something? A colleague was scratching his > head with this, so it seemed sensible to ask. > On the mains input cable to the power supply, for 240 v external supply, > what's the test voltage we should see across each pair? "pair"?? y'mean including neutral? ground? center tap? "Single phase"? "Three Phase"? "Delta"? "Y"? DC? Peak to peak? RMS? These questions may be stupid, but you really didn't specify what kind of power you are talking about. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 23 15:35:17 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 21:35:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Skipware level, late 2012 In-Reply-To: References: <5079C463.5060608@neurotica.com> <1F44F018D25B49EF98C817E5B3397D8D@hd2600xt6a04f7> <5079CB9D.4070603@neurotica.com> <5079D39F.3020905@neurotica.com> <5079DB6C.8000701@update.uu.se> <507ACD5A.4000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1351024517.6163.YahooMailNeo@web171604.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Jason McBrien To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, 14 October 2012, 20:05 Subject: Re: Skipware level, late 2012 > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Jules Richardson < >jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > To me a modern 3D game still looks no more realistic than the 2D platforms > > that were around in the 80s - in that it's still so obviously not "real" > > that the bells and whistles are pointless - and the level of entertainment > > extracted from pushing pixels around a screen is no different, so I can't > > see the logic in spending spending the kind of cash required to run a > > modern game when all it will ever be is "just a game" > > > My wife went over to her cousin's house a couple of years ago - she thought > her cousin's family was sitting around watching football. She couldn't tell > from one room over that they were playing Madden on a Playstation 3. > > It's the sports games that are really pushing the hardware. I remember the > old golf games (Links?) that were so slow that you could watch the course > being painted - and that was on fast hardware at the time, mainly first gen > Pentium and PowerPC hardware. I disagree. Whilst some sports games (certainly the recent F1 games) push the hardware, I think it is the combination of great programmers combined with great polygon modelers that truely push the modern hardware - just look at *any* of the Gears Of War games on XBox 360, or Red Dead Redemption (which makes you feel like you are in the 'ole wild west). I've recently been playing Assasins Creed: Revelations, which does a great job of making me feel like I was in Constantinople centuries ago :) An older example which illustrates my point would be the average stuff on the Sega Dreamcast compared with Soul Calibur 1, by Namco. I still love playing older games every month though. Anyone up for Tetris? ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 15:49:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 21:49:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics In-Reply-To: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> from "Colin Eby" at Oct 23, 12 07:43:57 am Message-ID: > > Tony and Rik, > > Can you guys just sanity check something? A colleague was scratching > his head with this, so it seemed sensible to ask. > > On the mains input cable to the power supply, for 240 v external > supply, what's the test voltage we should see across each pair? There are several versios of the HP9845. The 9845A is very differnet to the 9845B. The 9845B anmd 9845C (colour) are similar apart from the monitor section (which includes a lot of digitial circuitry, jsut to keep you on your toes...) I beelvie the PSU come in sevearl version too, and that 9845Bs wit hthe 'high speed language processor' have a different PSU to normal ones. You can get my schematics for the 9845B from the Australian site, but of course they only cover the machine I've got -- a 9845B with high speed language processoar and enhanced monochrome nonitor. With that in mid... The easiest place to check the mains wiring is on the barrier stip of faston terminals on the side of the PSU casing. There are 4 connections there, iot may look like more, but theuy common together internally. All the wires of the same colour are linked. Numbering the tags with 1 at the top and 4 at the bottom, and assuming the votlage selector is set to 230V: Between 2 (White/.Red/Geey) and 3 (Grey) you should see full mains voltage Between 1 (White/Green/Grey) and 2 (white/Red/Grey) you should see half mains voltage Btween 3 (Grey) and 4 (white/Yellow/Grey) you should, again, see half mains voltage. The cooling fans are 120V AC units. The left hand one is conencted between tags 1 and 2. The right hand one is conencted between tages 3 and 4. The internal circuitry of the PSU include asmall mains transformer used ot power the chopper cotnrol circuitry. With the selector set ot 230V, the priomary of this transformer also acts as an autotransformwer to split the maisn in ahlf for the fans. Are the fans running? If so, then the mains input is almost certainly correct. This power supply is complicated -- very. The one I have is on 5 circuit boards, in contains 17 ICs and has 4 chopepr transistors. Take care! > > BTW Tony, thanks again for your advice on the PERQ. It's been a working > display for a couple of weeks now. I still on the lookout for an > engaging app to demo. At the moment its just running Spy. What was the problem with the monitor? -tony From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 16:19:19 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:19:19 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210231911.q9NJBVji16384128@floodgap.com> References: <5086DEF7.5030003@vaxen.net> <201210231911.q9NJBVji16384128@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > > This is an M76. It doesn't need the terminator, does it? (It does not > have one.) > My 3100 M76 came with the external SCSI terminator. I'll have to take a look at it and see if there is a part number on it. -Glen From mc68010 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 16:20:17 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:20:17 -0700 Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50870A11.4090804@gmail.com> Maybe someone in New Mexico might be able to talk him into selling the whole thing and save it before he destroys it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/281008663396 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 23 16:22:36 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 22:22:36 +0100 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> References: <5086B813.2090403@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 23, 12 11:30:27 am" <201210231715.q9NHFili16056452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <01de01cdb164$883038c0$9890aa40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: 23 October 2012 18:16 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation > > > > Ideas, or reach for the OpenVMS CD? Is there an easy way to use the > > > SCSI port on the VAXstation 3100 (I hear it has a different pinout)? > > > > It's either a hardware failure or a badly corrupted system disk. > > I certainly hope it's the latter! > > > Unless there's stuff on there that you need to recover, you're wasting > > your time...just do a fresh install. Do you have a VMS distribution on CD? > > CDs came with it; I haven't examined them. I should make sure they work in > simh, so the G5 is industriously compiling simh as I type this. (Can simh > netboot the 3100?) Yes, but as has been mentioned, if you have a suitable 50-pin SCSI CDROM drive and the media, it is easier to use that. You either need the special external cable, or as has been mentioned before take the lid off and use the internal 50-pin SCSI cable directly. I also ordered a SCSI cable as per Glen's link, so we'll try > getting it running again when the cable arrives. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- mouse, n: A device for pointing at the xterm in which you want to type. --- > - From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 16:25:43 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 22:25:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics In-Reply-To: <20121023132927.C81498@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 23, 12 01:32:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Colin Eby wrote: > > Can you guys just sanity check something? A colleague was scratching his > > head with this, so it seemed sensible to ask. > > On the mains input cable to the power supply, for 240 v external supply, > > what's the test voltage we should see across each pair? > > "pair"?? > y'mean including neutral? ground? center tap? The HP9845 PSU is a complex beast, but at least it only takes in single=phase mains... The PSU itself is built onm 5 PCBs (or at least the one in my machine is). 2 of them haev card edges that fit into edge connectors on the main backplane and carry all the DC outputs. We are not concerned with those yet There is also a 4 pin conenctor that plugs into a mating conenctor on the chassis metalwork when the PSU is slotted it. This conenctor is wired to a 4 way barrier strip thing on the side of the PSU casing. I asusme it';s this that he's taling about Nothe that the order of conenctions on the connecotr and the barrier strip are NOT the same. The middle 2 pins of this arry the live and neutral mains, after hte switch and fuse. The otehr 2 are shorted together by the voltaeg slector swithc for 230V mains and are effecively a half-mains-voltaeg point using the primary of the startup transformer as an autotransformer.This is used ot powet the 2 120V AC cooling fans. [Some detail on the intenrals... The startup transofrmer has apair of 120V primaries. the 4 conenctions are brought out to this barrier strip in an illogical order :-). FOr 230V they're in series, the common connection is the tap i just mentioned. For 115V they;re in parallel. The main SMPUS part has the nroaml doubler/bridge rectifier circuit, the tap of th capacitors is conencted to a suitable end of a primary widing in of the startup transoformer] > > "Single phase"? > "Three Phase"? > "Delta"? > "Y"? > DC? > > Peak to peak? > RMS? Single pahse, RMS, 50Hz (at least in the UK :-)). In all cases you should see : 120V between 1 and 2 on the barrier strip. 120V between 3 and 4. Mains (120V or 240V as apporpriate) between 2 and 3. > These questions may be stupid, but you really didn't specify what kind of > power you are talking about. No, but he did specify (almost) the machine. A quick look at hte schematics of the 9845B would answer the above questions I think. -tony From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 16:57:15 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:57:15 -0700 Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics In-Reply-To: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> References: <7981649e-aa62-41ec-b7e5-ed71e3830e92@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > > > BTW Tony, thanks again for your advice on the PERQ. It's been a working > display for a couple of weeks now. I still on the lookout for an engaging > app to demo. At the moment its just running Spy. > Were you able to archive any of the software you got with the PERQ? Any chance of making it available if so? Always looking for more stuff to run on my PERQ (and PERQemu) :). Thanks, Josh > -- Colin > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 17:20:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 18:20:20 -0400 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <5085514B.1000402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50871824.3040708@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 02:04 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > If you're bidding on it, I won't. I have a total of 3 14/30s and > 14/35s, so I really don't need it, but that box does look nice.I may > have some extra boards here. > > I still have the VT14 (pics posted here a few months ago) and the > H1500s, H1550s, H1600, H1650- ssr plug ins- I'm guessing at the part > numbers, and the distribution panels and cables. It's not looking good > that I will get to play with it in the near future. Well it's looking equally bad for my being able to afford to buy them from you, but I am definitely very much interested. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 23 17:59:34 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 23:59:34 +0100 Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM In-Reply-To: <50870A11.4090804@gmail.com> References: <50870A11.4090804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01e201cdb172$13744ef0$3a5cecd0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of mc68010 > Sent: 23 October 2012 22:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM > > Maybe someone in New Mexico might be able to talk him into selling the > whole thing and save it before he destroys it. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281008663396 Oh dear! Wrong side of the Atlantic again! I have an 11/24 with a bad PSU that I am struggling to repair, if I could afford to ship the PSU I would have it. There again the seller seems not to even want to offer shipping abroad anyway :-( Regards Rob From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Oct 23 18:30:46 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:30:46 +0100 Subject: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics Message-ID: <13ux41cu2pridkvwpnr2no59.1351035046253@email.android.com> Josh, My apologies! I got tangled up with other things and dropped the ball. Do nag me if I seem to go away. Software -- I'm afraid the PERQ software is in the end of the archive they are still cataloguing. So I tried my luck a bit. I came across a games disk which appeared to have a copy of an asteroid clone on it, but the disk didn't appear to be readable. I've imaged it, but the system threw every kind of data error when attempting to read it. Attempting to execute the file I *did* managed to extract hung the PERQ up good and proper. I'm reasonably confident the drive is reading well and this is genuinely a diskette issue. I've also imaged a set of POS based utilities, but all those disks appeared quite badly damaged (one of them was actually clear in sections). I don't think much will come from a forensic examination of the raw image. But by happenstance, we have two copies of that set, and I've not tried the second set yet (about 8 diskettes). Depending on cirqs this weekend I might get an hour or two to slave over a hot PERQ backing off files and validating media. Nag me again Sunday, if I fail to report back! --Colin Josh Dersch wrote: >On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 11:43 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > >> >> >> BTW Tony, thanks again for your advice on the PERQ. It's been a working >> display for a couple of weeks now. I still on the lookout for an engaging >> app to demo. At the moment its just running Spy. >> > >Were you able to archive any of the software you got with the PERQ? Any >chance of making it available if so? Always looking for more stuff to run >on my PERQ (and PERQemu) :). > >Thanks, >Josh > > > >> -- Colin >> > From colineby at isallthat.com Tue Oct 23 18:42:53 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:42:53 +0100 Subject: PERQ monitor problem (was HP 9845 power supply diagnostics) Message-ID: My recollection is it was both rolling and skewed. I need to get it in the queue for our CRT doctor to look at. He's got a never ending stream of Cubs to deal with supporting our BBC classroom systems. I have to nudge the PERQs monitor in among them, as well as an HP 2645 scan card that's puzzling me. I may have mentioned (?) I took the expedient measure of swapping the base from one monitor for the other to address the cable sheathing issue we had. This leave us the backup monitor on the injured list waiting for the doc. --Colin ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> Tony and Rik, >> >> Can you guys just sanity check something? A colleague was scratching >> his head with this, so it seemed sensible to ask. >> >> On the mains input cable to the power supply, for 240 v external >> supply, what's the test voltage we should see across each pair? > >There are several versios of the HP9845. The 9845A is very differnet to >the 9845B. The 9845B anmd 9845C (colour) are similar apart from the >monitor section (which includes a lot of digitial circuitry, jsut to keep >you on your toes...) > >I beelvie the PSU come in sevearl version too, and that 9845Bs wit hthe >'high speed language processor' have a different PSU to normal ones. > >You can get my schematics for the 9845B from the Australian site, but of >course they only cover the machine I've got -- a 9845B with high speed >language processoar and enhanced monochrome nonitor. > >With that in mid... > >The easiest place to check the mains wiring is on the barrier stip of >faston terminals on the side of the PSU casing. There are 4 connections >there, iot may look like more, but theuy common together internally. All >the wires of the same colour are linked. > >Numbering the tags with 1 at the top and 4 at the bottom, and assuming the >votlage selector is set to 230V: > >Between 2 (White/.Red/Geey) and 3 (Grey) you should see full mains voltage > >Between 1 (White/Green/Grey) and 2 (white/Red/Grey) you should see half >mains voltage > >Btween 3 (Grey) and 4 (white/Yellow/Grey) you should, again, see half >mains voltage. > >The cooling fans are 120V AC units. The left hand one is conencted >between tags 1 and 2. The right hand one is conencted between tages 3 and >4. The internal circuitry of the PSU include asmall mains transformer >used ot power the chopper cotnrol circuitry. With the selector set ot >230V, the priomary of this transformer also acts as an autotransformwer >to split the maisn in ahlf for the fans. > >Are the fans running? If so, then the mains input is almost certainly >correct. > >This power supply is complicated -- very. The one I have is on 5 circuit >boards, in contains 17 ICs and has 4 chopepr transistors. Take care! > > >> >> BTW Tony, thanks again for your advice on the PERQ. It's been a working >> display for a couple of weeks now. I still on the lookout for an >> engaging app to demo. At the moment its just running Spy. > >What was the problem with the monitor? > >-tony > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 19:15:50 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:15:50 -0500 Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old pre-internet Online services > both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later? For Commodore fans, there is Q-Link Reloaded, an early-stage recreation of the back end of the QuantumLink online service. It can be accessed with a modified Q-Link client disk and either a real Commodore computer (with serial link) or with an emulator. This page has information but I suspect it may be out-of-date. I will try to dig up better info (or visit the #c64friends IRC channel where some of the devs hang out) http://orrtech.us/qlink/index.html -- jht From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 19:22:53 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:22:53 -0700 Subject: PERQ Archiving (was Re: HP 9845 power supply diagnostics) In-Reply-To: <13ux41cu2pridkvwpnr2no59.1351035046253@email.android.com> References: <13ux41cu2pridkvwpnr2no59.1351035046253@email.android.com> Message-ID: <508734DD.8080608@gmail.com> On 10/23/2012 4:30 PM, Colin Eby wrote: > Josh, > > My apologies! I got tangled up with other things and dropped the ball. Do nag me if I seem to go away. Oh, no problem. I'm not in any hurry here :). > > Software -- I'm afraid the PERQ software is in the end of the archive they are still cataloguing. So I tried my luck a bit. I came across a games disk which appeared to have a copy of an asteroid clone on it, but the disk didn't appear to be readable. I've imaged it, but the system threw every kind of data error when attempting to read it. Attempting to execute the file I *did* managed to extract hung the PERQ up good and proper. I'm reasonably confident the drive is reading well and this is genuinely a diskette issue. I think Al may have mentioned this, but the first track of PERQ floppies is left unformatted (or if it is formatted, it wasn't the PERQ that did it.) I don't know why this is, but keep it in mind when archiving them. Sounds like that's probably not the issue here, though. Hopefully some of your disks do end up being salvageable. > > I've also imaged a set of POS based utilities, but all those disks appeared quite badly damaged (one of them was actually clear in sections). I don't think much will come from a forensic examination of the raw image. But by happenstance, we have two copies of that set, and I've not tried the second set yet (about 8 diskettes). Depending on cirqs this weekend I might get an hour or two to slave over a hot PERQ backing off files and validating media. Nag me again Sunday, if I fail to report back! Best of luck :). If you want to image your PERQ's hard disk, I can send you an image containing a bootable POS + my dumpdisk utility. Given a few hours it'll send the contents of the disk over the RS232 port. Thanks again, - Josh > > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 19:26:05 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:26:05 -0500 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5086B292.3080103@neurotica.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> <5086B292.3080103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 10:06 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh yes, DF03s were definitely sold to customers. Heck, they were even > sold through retail stores (including the one I worked at as an > after-school job decades ago) that were DEC dealers. Ah ok, then it's just mine specifically that is "property of DEC." That makes it even cooler! :) Good solid brick of a modem. Love the little silver buttons on it. Trying to remember what other DEC products had those. I want to say one of the DECtalk cards that fit into the rackmount cardcage (DTC03?) From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 19:39:09 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:39:09 -0700 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <1544647354-1351014992-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1200484949-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5086BAA0.9020101@neurotica.com> <1544647354-1351014992-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1200484949-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <508738AD.5000408@gmail.com> Apologies, I completely missed the end of this thread and I ended up outbidding Dave's friend. (A whopping $16, though the shipping stings a bit). Hopefully I can track down some software... - Josh On 10/23/2012 10:56 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Awesome. Good luck to him. I'd only be bidding to save them from the trash so he has no competition from me. > > Out of curiosity what city is your friend in? > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:41:20 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > I just heard back from my local friend; he is definitely going to grab > them. They will go to a good home. > > -Dave > > On 10/23/2012 01:39 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. >> >> Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave McGuire >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 >> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >> >> >> I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it >> when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it >> or not. I will ask him. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. >>> >>> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Brent Hilpert >>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >>> >>> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >>>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >>>> >>>> After a lot of Google I found this: >>>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) >>> Bad characters in the url. Try this: >>> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ >>> >>> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it >>> seems. >>> >>> >>>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >>>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >>>> >>>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >>>> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 23 19:42:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:42:15 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> <5086B292.3080103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50873967.4040704@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 08:26 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Oh yes, DF03s were definitely sold to customers. Heck, they were even >> sold through retail stores (including the one I worked at as an >> after-school job decades ago) that were DEC dealers. > > Ah ok, then it's just mine specifically that is "property of DEC." > That makes it even cooler! :) Yes. :) That was probably a "field service dial-in" modem. > Good solid brick of a modem. Love the little silver buttons on it. > Trying to remember what other DEC products had those. I want to say > one of the DECtalk cards that fit into the rackmount cardcage (DTC03?) I think so, yes. The DF03 (and some later modems) were also packaged a bunch together in a rack as modem arrays. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 23 20:44:27 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:44:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: References: <5086DEF7.5030003@vaxen.net> <201210231911.q9NJBVji16384128@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > >> This is an M76. It doesn't need the terminator, does it? (It does not >> have one.) > > My 3100 M76 came with the external SCSI terminator. I'll have to take a > look at it and see if there is a part number on it. It just so happens I have one of these sitting on my desk. The part number for the terminator is 12-29635-01 and the plastic cover that fits over it is 74-38189-01. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Oct 23 21:32:45 2012 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:32:45 -0700 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <5085B579.5050802@bitsavers.org> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <67247622-1350931929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-685416970-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085B579.5050802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2012, at 2:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > There is very little technical information available for these systems. They are sort of related > to the TI Explorer. At least some models shared the same bus (Nubus). I understand the relationship to be that the Explorer LX takes the CPU card and I/O paddle from the TI 1500, and optionally the multiport serial card, to run UNIX in the same chassis as the LISP processor. ROM code in both processors work together to provide the UNIX system console in a LISP window. I'm not sure what else they might share. ok bear. -- until further notice From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 23 22:46:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:46:14 -0700 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> On 10/23/2012 12:31 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > If these adapters sound useful at all I can see about taking some photos > and a work up the pinout. I just really can't see me ever using ~350 of > these things :) I recognize these and even recall an office suite that we used (around 1985) being wired this way. The idea is that you had the same installer wire your phone system to the KSU, and give you a punch-down block in the closet to wire your terminals. So basically, you attached the adapters to your PeeCees or terminals and connected them to pairs in the cable (usually 50-conductor) that also carried your phone traffic using more-or-less standard modular cords. Radio Shack, believe it or not, used to sell DB25F versions of these with a 4-conductor modular connector in the connector hood. I still have a couple. --Chuck From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 23 23:18:10 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 04:18:10 +0000 Subject: Interesting ePay find... In-Reply-To: <508738AD.5000408@gmail.com> References: <764A7459-33E6-4BE7-83C8-B799CD146FDF@cs.ubc.ca> <642927607-1350951970-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1992314358-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5085E7D2.8020208@neurotica.com> <1180028071-1350970775-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-209088425-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <5086BAA0.9020101@neurotica.com> <1544647354-1351014992-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1200484949-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508738AD.5000408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1623716210-1351052288-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1943381898-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Lol its an open market and if it wasn't worth the $15 then its pretty fair ;-) Yup shipping will suck but let us know if ya get it up and running. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Dersch Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 17:39:09 To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... Apologies, I completely missed the end of this thread and I ended up outbidding Dave's friend. (A whopping $16, though the shipping stings a bit). Hopefully I can track down some software... - Josh On 10/23/2012 10:56 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Awesome. Good luck to him. I'd only be bidding to save them from the trash so he has no competition from me. > > Out of curiosity what city is your friend in? > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:41:20 > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... > > > I just heard back from my local friend; he is definitely going to grab > them. They will go to a good home. > > -Dave > > On 10/23/2012 01:39 AM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> Good to hear. I'd feel bad if they go to a scrapper. From a quick message to the seller they run off a normal power cable. I'd guess they're 120v systems. They confirmed they don't have any manuals or software. I noticed the pic but didn't mention the appearance of the hard drive either. >> >> Seller didn't actually reply to pickup question but I rarely find anyone not willing these days. Just some folks who feel the need to charge or make up a little loss with a pickup fee but not accusing this seller. Itd cost me a tank of gas + auction to get but again I'd only save it if there was a large need. Someone else would enjoy it better. Though I do know a few texas museums that might be interested. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Dave McGuire >> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:41:54 >> To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >> >> >> I have a local friend (not on this list) who was thinking about it >> when they first popped up, but I don't know if he's still considering it >> or not. I will ask him. >> >> -Dave >> >> On 10/22/2012 08:26 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >>> Not sure if I could save them even if I wanted to. Size/weight the wife may notice them. >>> >>> Anyone here thinking about it? Without software or drives its not likely to make it off my todo list if I went and got them so I'm not the best candidate other than not ever scrapping anything. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Brent Hilpert >>> Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2012 10:30:21 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: Re: Interesting ePay find... >>> >>> On 2012 Oct 22, at 5:57 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote: >>>> I was browsing on e-bay and found these TI-1500 systems. I have no >>>> link to the seller. I never heard of these before. >>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TI-1500-unix-computers-/251167418839 >>>> >>>> After a lot of Google I found this: >>>> http://www. home. unix- ag. org/ engel/ ti/ (which isn't working) >>> Bad characters in the url. Try this: >>> http://www.home.unix-ag.org/engel/ti/ >>> >>> 68030/40-based machines with System-V-ish port from the mid 80's it >>> seems. >>> >>> >>>> The software that's available for it is still quite pricey: >>>> http://www.csisoft.com/applications/ti.php >>>> >>>> I don't see a NetBSD port for it, either. >>>> >> > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 00:38:01 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 22:38:01 -0700 Subject: Removing mineral deposits from circuitboards In-Reply-To: References: <5085F326.6030604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50877EB9.5040205@gmail.com> On 10/22/2012 11:38 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Mon, 22 Oct 2012, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> So, here's a fun one: >> >> See the picture(s) here: >> >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/gridcase/ >> >> This is in a Gridcase 3+ I picked up last week off eBay for what >> seemed at the time to be a pretty great price. Heard some stuff >> rattling around inside so I opened it up before doing anything else >> and what I seem to have is a few large mineral deposits on the main >> circuit board. >> >> It's pretty well localized,and aside from a completely dissolved >> drive support post and a few rusted screws there really isn't all >> that much rust(amazingly). And thankfully the corrosion that's >> present has almost entirely avoided any custom ASICs or other parts >> on board. Everything else in the system aside from the bad patches >> in the pictures is clean (although the whole thing smells like a dank >> basement, geeI wonder why) and the underside is almost corrosion free >> so there's a non-zero chance I could get this running again. Except >> I have no idea how to go about removing the buildup of... crud... on >> this thing. It's pretty solid, I've soaked it for a few minutes in >> water and chiseled at it (gently) with the tip of an xacto knife and >> I got some of it off that way but it's very slow goingand I'm afraid >> of removing what's left of whatever's underneath it before I can >> identify it. >> >> Any tips for removing this stuff? > > Yuk. Still, I've seen far worse :) > > Vinegar and a toothbrush for neutralizing the battery electrolyte and > removing the loose corrosion, then rinse it off really well with water > (hot water and a sink sprayer). I usually remove any remaining > corrosion with baking soda and water formed into a paste, again using > a toothbrush, followed by another rinse. You might have to do this > several times and remove the socketed chips after an initial cleaning. Thanks. Went over the board with vinegar + toothbrush and it got rid of the lighter stuff. I let it soak for a little while again and started picking gently at the larger formations with a knife and I made some pretty good progress, it's almost what you'd call clean. Interestingly enough there doesn't seem to be a lot of damage to the PCB, and most of the chips don't look too bad either. Which is odd -- most battery-related corrosion I've seen has been very destructive. There's one DIP switch on the ROM daughterboard that looks pretty much beyond hope but everything else looks like it may be OK. At the very least the stuff that got hit by the battery offal is all standard components that I can replace, assuming I can get them out without damaging anything. (Aside from ROMs, nothing is socketed here.) Now the boards are drying, and once that's done I'll see if I can get any signs of life out of them. The power supply seems to be OK... > > This sounds harsh (and is pretty messy), but when you have a board > that looks like that, this is usually what it takes to clean it up. In > the past I've successfully savaged PC boards and test equipment that > had been under 20ft+ of water for more than two weeks due to flooding > (the on-board batteries had of course also burst and the corrosion was > severe). > Thanks for the tips. And I'm glad I didn't have to rescue this from 20 feet of water :). Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 07:53:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:53:03 -0400 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 23, 2012, at 11:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/23/2012 12:31 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If these adapters sound useful at all I can see about taking some photos >> and a work up the pinout. I just really can't see me ever using ~350 of >> these things :) > > I recognize these and even recall an office suite that we used (around 1985) being wired this way. The idea is that you had the same installer wire your phone system to the KSU, and give you a punch-down block in the closet to wire your terminals. So basically, you attached the adapters to your PeeCees or terminals and connected them to pairs in the cable (usually 50-conductor) that also carried your phone traffic using more-or-less standard modular cords. > > Radio Shack, believe it or not, used to sell DB25F versions of these with a 4-conductor modular connector in the connector hood. I still have a couple. Baynesville Electronics in Baltimore, MD still sells them. They're handy for more than just the above-mentioned situation (lots of places used a similar scheme for LocalTalk wiring for Macs, thanks to Farallon's PhoneNet adaptor, which let you run whole small networks over similar wiring). I seem to recall some Cisco routers using the 8P8C serial connection directly, but that may be faulty memory; it's been a while since I've used a Cisco router, and if I never do again, it might be too soon. - Dave From david at classiccomputing.com Wed Oct 24 08:19:23 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:19:23 -0500 Subject: Another Apple 1 for sale? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72fc600270bd9a74e32e4b5775798291.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> > Did I miss something or is there another Apple 1 for sale > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2221860/Rare-working-Apple-1-complete-accessories-set-auctioned.html Yep, and this one works, so maybe it will sell, considering the last one from Christie's did not - http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/Blog/Entries/2012/10/9_Another_Apple_1_Auction.html This German auction house is seriously marketing the auction too. There's video of the machine working and they put an ascii graphic of Woz on the little monitor! http://www.breker.com/english/index.htm Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From marcogb at xs4all.nl Wed Oct 24 09:01:11 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:01:11 +0200 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5087F4A7.4010107@xs4all.nl> On 22-10-2012 3:43, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/21/2012 6:17 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Whoa, I totally missed that. It was only a year ago that I had to >> order the hobbyist CD and wait nearly a month to get it. That is good >> news, indeed! - Dave > > You have to send them an email and they send you the ftp login details. > Has much more than just the VMS cd too. The new, HP-insourced, OpenVMS Hobbyist Program is very good I must say! They indeed also distribute more than just the base operating system installation media, also Layered Products and more. Not relevant for VAX, but just to show how the program has improved: The "I64" (IA-64) version even includes a major update on the 'remastered' DVD image. - MG From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 24 09:52:11 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:52:11 +0200 Subject: Nasa Technical Report - An operating system for the LINC computer Message-ID: Searching in the NASA Technical Reports Server I've located this document: An operating system for the LINC computer Url: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660006438_1966006438.pdf It appears to contain the source code of a BLINK compiler. Regards Sergio From francois.dion at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 09:56:28 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:56:28 -0400 Subject: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: On the last guessing thread (it lives! about the CES apple clone), William said: "Make it PRINT "HELLO" and then GOTO 10 for me one more time, won't you please?" And the C64 fans were also left in want, so I present to you the Blue Screen Of Basic: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/blue-screen-of-basic.html I'm sure quite a few people already know what it is... The follow up post wont be a clue but simply a detailed post on this modern retro computer. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From reiche at ls-al.eu Wed Oct 24 10:29:26 2012 From: reiche at ls-al.eu (Sander Reiche) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:29:26 +0200 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <5087F4A7.4010107@xs4all.nl> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> <5087F4A7.4010107@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <201210241529.q9OFTQ9S014468@ls-al.eu> > On 22-10-2012 3:43, mc68010 wrote: > > On 10/21/2012 6:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > >> Whoa, I totally missed that. It was only a year ago that I had to > >> order the hobbyist CD and wait nearly a month to get it. That is good > >> news, indeed! - Dave > > > > You have to send them an email and they send you the ftp login details. > > Has much more than just the VMS cd too. > Well, I've sent them an email from my account on Sunday when I read it, but haven't heard anything yet... re, Sander From saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Oct 24 10:32:58 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 59 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF8013F9E89663-15B4-2C32C@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message: 13 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:19:19 -0700 From: Glen Slick To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Oct 23, 2012 12:14 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > > This is an M76. It doesn't need the terminator, does it? (It does not > have one.) > My 3100 M76 came with the external SCSI terminator. I'll have to take a look at it and see if there is a part number on it. -Glen The /76 has dual SCSI busses, so the presence or absence of the external terminator is not critical for proper operation of the internal devices, provided that the internal bus line is properly terminated. Another vote in favor of hacking in a CD-ROM drive and booting from the disks. Unfortunately, VAX-VMS doesn't have the "Minnie-VMS" environment that Alpha does. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 10:34:49 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 11:34:49 -0400 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210241529.q9OFTQ9S014468@ls-al.eu> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com>, <50847889.3080009@gmail.com>, <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com>, <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> <5087F4A7.4010107@xs4all.nl>,<201210241529.q9OFTQ9S014468@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: I sent email last week, no response yet... > From: reiche at ls-al.eu > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:29:26 +0200 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation > > > On 22-10-2012 3:43, mc68010 wrote: > > > On 10/21/2012 6:17 PM, David Riley wrote: > > >> Whoa, I totally missed that. It was only a year ago that I had to > > >> order the hobbyist CD and wait nearly a month to get it. That is good > > >> news, indeed! - Dave > > > > > > You have to send them an email and they send you the ftp login details. > > > Has much more than just the VMS cd too. > > > Well, I've sent them an email from my account on Sunday when I read it, but > haven't heard anything yet... > > re, > > Sander From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 24 12:35:09 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:35:09 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 with the spaces and the semicolon. 10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; 20 GOTO 10 Zane At 10:56 AM -0400 10/24/12, Francois Dion wrote: >On the last guessing thread (it lives! about the >CES apple clone), William said: >"Make it PRINT "HELLO" and then GOTO 10 for me >one more time, won't you please?" > >And the C64 fans were also left in want, so I present to you the Blue >Screen Of Basic: > >http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/blue-screen-of-basic.html > >I'm sure quite a few people already know what it is... The follow up >post wont be a clue but simply a detailed post on this modern retro >computer. > > >Fran?ois > >-- >solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 12:46:28 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:46:28 -0700 Subject: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation In-Reply-To: <201210241529.q9OFTQ9S014468@ls-al.eu> References: <201210212153.q9LLrH3g17498220@floodgap.com> <50847889.3080009@gmail.com> <55407E9D-B612-41D6-AE59-9CC14FC366AD@gmail.com> <5084A4D9.9060501@gmail.com> <5087F4A7.4010107@xs4all.nl> <201210241529.q9OFTQ9S014468@ls-al.eu> Message-ID: <50882974.1050005@gmail.com> On 10/24/2012 8:29 AM, Sander Reiche wrote: >> On 22-10-2012 3:43, mc68010 wrote: >> >> You have to send them an email and they send you the ftp login details. >> Has much more than just the VMS cd too. > Well, I've sent them an email from my account on Sunday when I read it, but > haven't heard anything yet... > > re, > > Sander You may need to generate licenses first. They have a whole new license deal happening. I think the entire VMS hobbyist program at HP is really just one guy. John Egolf. When you submit the license request he emails you the license script from his own HP email address. I replied to his email with the license file attached and he answered in a matter of minutes. He has answered my other questions quickly too but, I imagine he is only available mon-fri during PST business hours. From adwallach at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 11:16:25 2012 From: adwallach at gmail.com (Anthony Wallach) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:16:25 +0100 Subject: Superbrain schematics Message-ID: <004201cdb202$ebba3460$c32e9d20$@com> Hi Andrew. I have a SuperBrain QD that I had up in the loft. Unfortunately the display no longer works as the graphite core that fits into a donut coil attached to the side of the Video case has snapped in two places. Though the display appears to work no characters are visible. It does boot and if the dir command is entered it is apparent that it is attempting to display the output as the cursor moves across and down the screen. I have tried looking for spares via Google but no luck. Hopefully knowing what the gizmo should do I could fix or replace it. Thus if you have still have the schematic package available in digital or hard copy, I would be grateful if you could let me know. I am retired and wrote business applications in the 1981's and am curious to revisit them to see how things have changed since the heady days of CPM 2.2. I realise that your post goes back to 1998 but it would be great to receive a reply. Regards Anthony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 24 13:23:56 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:23:56 +0200 Subject: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay In-Reply-To: <5086E31B.5000704@neurotica.com> References: <50802C84.80009@pico-systems.com> <5081D70D.8030602@gmail.com> <5082C43A.3030906@bitsavers.org> <20121023202856.59e98f7a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5086E31B.5000704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121024202356.3ca8e281.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:34:03 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Oooh! Do you know who he was, and how to contact him? Yes: Gerd Sch?nemann. Go to http://www.vintage.org/gallery.php?grouptag=VCFEUR30 and scroll down to the end. There you can see him and his PDP-8E as well as the Indistrial 14. I have no EMail address. You may need to contact Hans Franke to get in touch with Gerd. BTW: The MicroVAX III in a BA123, that you can see at the left edge of the picture, is mine. :-) Ohhh, sh... That was 10 years ago. I am getting old. ;-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 15:03:28 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:03:28 +0000 Subject: Another Apple 1 for sale? In-Reply-To: <72fc600270bd9a74e32e4b5775798291.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> References: <72fc600270bd9a74e32e4b5775798291.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> Message-ID: <1599968590-1351109008-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1315796958-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Yeah. In honesty its a badass auction lol. How many folks have a spare house or two budget to spend I dunno but the collection and working aspect I'm not sure have been matched. Previous units have still been in that expensive car range with no "working" claim. Given I do think there's a bit of a price/popularity bubble with Jobs' fairly recent passing still in memories. -----Original Message----- From: "David Greelish" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:19:23 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Another Apple 1 for sale? > Did I miss something or is there another Apple 1 for sale > > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2221860/Rare-working-Apple-1-complete-accessories-set-auctioned.html Yep, and this one works, so maybe it will sell, considering the last one from Christie's did not - http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/Blog/Entries/2012/10/9_Another_Apple_1_Auction.html This German auction house is seriously marketing the auction too. There's video of the machine working and they put an ascii graphic of Woz on the little monitor! http://www.breker.com/english/index.htm Best, David Greelish - Computer Historian, Author, Speaker, Blogger & Podcaster - Founder of the Atlanta Historical Computing Society Producer of the Vintage Computer Festival Southeast 1.0 - 2/9/13 http://about.me/davidgreelish From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 16:44:24 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 17:44:24 -0400 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 > with the spaces and the semicolon. > > 10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; > 20 GOTO 10 The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): 10 GOTO 10 Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Oct 24 16:57:45 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:57:45 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> On 24/10/12 13:53, David Riley wrote: > I seem to recall some Cisco routers using the 8P8C serial > connection directly, but that may be faulty memory; it's been a while > since I've used a Cisco router, and if I never do again, it might be too > soon. Nope - your memory is fine. I'm sitting next to a Catalyst 2970G which has the aforementioned RJ45 console port. To connect it to a PC you use either a "rollover" cable and adapter or a Cisco console cable - basically the same thing but without a detachable rollover cable (a piece of 8-core flat cable is crimped onto an 8P8C RJ45 then attached to a moulded-on DE9F connector). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 16:34:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:34:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: PERQ monitor problem (was HP 9845 power supply diagnostics) In-Reply-To: from "Colin Eby" at Oct 24, 12 00:42:53 am Message-ID: > > My recollection is it was both rolling and skewed. I need to get it in Right... Sounds liek capacitor trouble at a first guess.. > the queue for our CRT doctor to look at. He's got a never ending stream > of Cubs to deal with supporting our BBC classroom systems. I have to Ah, the Microvitec Cub. I remeber those... They are one of the few 'consumer' monitors of the period to use an EHT multiplier module (a tripler IIRC), most small colour monitors went over to the diode split line output transformer. The tripler design is probalby easier to fix -- the transofmer is less stressed ('only' 8kV o nthe end of the HV winding) and tends to last better. The tripler is a potted module, but it's possible to make an equivalnet or to find soembody who still has a 'universal tripler' on the shelf.... > nudge the PERQs monitor in among them, as well as an HP 2645 scan card > that's puzzling me. I may have mentioned (?) I took the expedient > measure of swapping the base from one monitor for the other to address > the cable sheathing issue we had. This leave us the backup monitor on You mentioend the cable problem. It's is. alas, common on PERQ 1 machines. I guess you've not managed to track down the fault in the monitor, then. The PRERQ 1 monitor is not too unconventional from what I remember, and it not a bad one to learn on. You should dive in with a 'socpe.... > the injured list waiting for the doc. I wonder if it would be worth gettign the repairer to appear on this list, that way we can cut out the middle man and reducew the chance of errors... -tony From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 18:11:31 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: <1351120291.55376.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> mine was in Atari 400 BASIC - 10 REM membrane keyboards are for the birds ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 2:44 PM PDT Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 >> with the spaces and the semicolon. >> >> 10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; >> 20 GOTO 10 > >The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): > >10 GOTO 10 > >Peace... Sridhar > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Oct 24 18:05:18 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:05:18 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/10/2012 22:57, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Nope - your memory is fine. I'm sitting next to a Catalyst 2970G which > has the aforementioned RJ45 console port. > > To connect it to a PC you use either a "rollover" cable and adapter or a > Cisco console cable - basically the same thing but without a detachable > rollover cable (a piece of 8-core flat cable is crimped onto an 8P8C > RJ45 then attached to a moulded-on DE9F connector). Look up "Yost" if you want to know where Cisco stole that idea from. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 24 20:08:47 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 20:08:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 24/10/2012 22:57, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Nope - your memory is fine. I'm sitting next to a Catalyst 2970G which >> has the aforementioned RJ45 console port. >> >> To connect it to a PC you use either a "rollover" cable and adapter or >> a Cisco console cable - basically the same thing but without a >> detachable rollover cable (a piece of 8-core flat cable is crimped onto >> an 8P8C RJ45 then attached to a moulded-on DE9F connector). > > Look up "Yost" if you want to know where Cisco stole that idea from. Not so fast. DEC was already doing this with 6P6C MMJ cables with a nearly identical system before Dave Yost came up with his standard using 8P8C adapters and cables. The additional two wires available with the 8P8C connectors allows for RTS/CTS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_port#Pinouts Apparently Cisco isn't /strictly/ Yost either but it looks like Cisco has tried to standardize on it. http://yost.com/computers/RJ45-serial/ http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps332/products_tech_note09186a0080094ce6.shtml Still, some of the first 8P8C connectors I remember seeing used with serial devices were with Cyclades and Digi multi-port serial interfaces. While the Yost system is more flexible, the systems Cyclades and Digi used do have more signals available (including RI with Digi's, which could generally be swapped via software from pin 1 on the 10P10C connector to one of the pins that would be available to an 8P8C connector). Yost's system wouldn't be too good for a bank of dialup modems, but Digi's system was widely used for this. From francois.dion at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:17:03 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:17:03 -0400 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, for those that hadn't heard of it, the computer on these screenshots: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/blue-screen-of-basic.html is a Pocket Mini Computer. It is based on a propeller P8X32A board, with a vga output. I'll be adding the extra 32KB when I receive the chips. I detailed what is in the kit here: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/pocket-mini-computer-kit.html and from there, is a link to the actual build. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 24 21:37:40 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 19:37:40 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:44 PM -0400 10/24/12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 >>with the spaces and the semicolon. >> >>10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; >>20 GOTO 10 > >The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): > >10 GOTO 10 > >Peace... Sridhar LOL! Well I guess it has the advantage of being 'bug free'. :-) I find myself tempted to turn on my Commodore 64 and try it. BTW, I'm quite happy to report that as part of the project to redo my darkroom, I've set my Commodore 64 back up (yes, in the darkroom area). In fact part of the time I was supposed to be working on the Darkroom last Saturday I was actually playing a game on the C64. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 24 21:57:01 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:57:01 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) Message-ID: Hey all, Since I'm stuck in a hotel for the IEEE LCN conference, I had nothing better to do than look up lots and lots of datasheets in search for an ideal driver/receiver pair for modern DEC bus circuits. Warning: below is a lengthy missive. Ignore it if the subject line doesn't turn you on (so to speak). The driver is generally the easy part; there are quite a few FETs out there that ought to do the job acceptably. You need a total (driver + receiver) capacitance of 9.35 pf, which is generally the tallest order, but it's easy enough to limit the slew rate of the pulldown by putting a series resistor in line with the gate. I believe Peter Wallace recommended the FDV301N, which seems as good as any; put one for the driver and one at the source as a gate for a group of them, and you should have a pretty effective transceiver. It might take a bit of space, and you'll eat a lot in assembly if you're not doing it yourself, but as Dave McGuire pointed out, if your main logic is contained in a micro and/or CPLD/FPGA, you're going to have plenty of space. And for SOT-23 packages, you can probably get close enough to the density of the original (quad-gate) DIP devices. The FDV301N claims a Coss of 6 pf, though I haven't done my homework to think about how the other parasitics affect the input capacitance. The receiver is a little harder. In the National (now re-branded by TI, which is hilarious considering the part was obsolete and long out of production by the time TI acquired them) app note on the DS3662, they indicate that they essentially just did the obvious thing and used a comparator for the input. Doing so with discrete comparators is possible, but generally costly in terms of both money and board space, and I've found parametric searches of comparators to be a bit tricky, depending on where you look. At least looking through what Digi-Key offers (and they're pretty much the best parametric search I know), there are few quad units fast enough which don't break the bank. The MAX9108 is a good candidate, though (quad gate for $4, or $2 in quantity 100, which you'd certainly be looking at for more than one or two units). It's a TSSOP-14 package, which isn't exactly tiny, but it's smaller than a DIP in most respects. It has a dual-element cousin, the MAX9107, which comes in a SOT23-8 package; I believe you could achieve higher density that way, though you'd end up spending more per gate. The input bias current is in the sub-uA range, but there's no input capacitance listed, which bothers me a bit. The outputs are TTL-compatible, which is generally compatible with 3.3v logic as well; it has a typical Voh of slightly more than 3.3v, but at 100uA source current, which is well within the handling range of the built- in protection diodes of most FPGAs (and it's close enough that it probably wouldn't trip them). Another good candidate is the NE521, which has some very nice logical gating inputs (which would save some external components if you're using bidirectional lines on the FPGA side). It's also a dual part, but unfortunately only available as small as SOIC-14, which doesn't provide for a lot of density (it is available in DIP, though, which should make some people happy). Its propagation delay is 12 ns instead of the MAX910x's 25, though both are still comfortably below the 32 required for DEC buses. Bias current is a max of 40 uA over temperature range (DEC max for the receiver unit load is 80 uA). It also does not provide an input capacitance; I suppose it's common with comparators? This one is also not as cheap per gate; even in quantity 100, it's still almost $4 each ($2 per gate), which probably offsets the convenience of having the enables built in to the part for most people (especially considering the larger package size). In any case, the solution doesn't seem as infeasible as I previously thought. Anyone want to go in on a few test boards together to split the costs? It seems like it would be prudent to make a few short (2 inches, maybe) dual-width boards to test input and output capacitance/waveforms before we try making whole boards, and if someone has a UNIBUS machine they're willing (and able) to test out on, that would be handy since I definitely do not. Also, are there major flaws in the above analysis? Am I totally smoking crack? The app note I referenced is here: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla139/snla139.pdf There's another interesting related one here: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla134/snla134.pdf - Dave From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 24 23:32:40 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 21:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: <1351139560.13578.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> and not playing Traveller? ------------------------------ On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 7:37 PM PDT Zane H. Healy wrote: >At 5:44 PM -0400 10/24/12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 >>with the spaces and the semicolon. >> >>10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; >>20 GOTO 10 >> >>The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): >> >>10 GOTO 10 >> >>Peace... Sridhar > >LOL! Well I guess it has the advantage of being 'bug free'. :-) I >find myself tempted to turn on my Commodore 64 and try it. > >BTW, I'm quite happy to report that as part of the project to redo my >darkroom, I've set my Commodore 64 back up (yes, in the darkroom >area). In fact part of the time I was supposed to be working on the >Darkroom last Saturday I was actually playing a game on the C64. :-) > >Zane > > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Photographer | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| My flickr Photostream | >| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >| My Photography Website | >| http://www.zanesphotography.com | > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 24 23:49:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 00:49:03 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5088C4BF.8080002@neurotica.com> Just a quick reply for now...Count me in on the Qbus test run, and I can provide Unibus machines for testing when the time comes. -Dave On 10/24/2012 10:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > Hey all, > > Since I'm stuck in a hotel for the IEEE LCN conference, I had > nothing better to do than look up lots and lots of datasheets in > search for an ideal driver/receiver pair for modern DEC bus > circuits. > > Warning: below is a lengthy missive. Ignore it if the subject > line doesn't turn you on (so to speak). > > > > The driver is generally the easy part; there are quite a few FETs > out there that ought to do the job acceptably. You need a total > (driver + receiver) capacitance of 9.35 pf, which is generally > the tallest order, but it's easy enough to limit the slew rate of > the pulldown by putting a series resistor in line with the gate. > I believe Peter Wallace recommended the FDV301N, which seems as > good as any; put one for the driver and one at the source as a > gate for a group of them, and you should have a pretty effective > transceiver. It might take a bit of space, and you'll eat a lot > in assembly if you're not doing it yourself, but as Dave McGuire > pointed out, if your main logic is contained in a micro and/or > CPLD/FPGA, you're going to have plenty of space. And for SOT-23 > packages, you can probably get close enough to the density of the > original (quad-gate) DIP devices. The FDV301N claims a Coss of > 6 pf, though I haven't done my homework to think about how the > other parasitics affect the input capacitance. > > The receiver is a little harder. In the National (now re-branded > by TI, which is hilarious considering the part was obsolete and > long out of production by the time TI acquired them) app note on > the DS3662, they indicate that they essentially just did the > obvious thing and used a comparator for the input. Doing so with > discrete comparators is possible, but generally costly in terms > of both money and board space, and I've found parametric searches > of comparators to be a bit tricky, depending on where you look. > At least looking through what Digi-Key offers (and they're pretty > much the best parametric search I know), there are few quad units > fast enough which don't break the bank. > > The MAX9108 is a good candidate, though (quad gate for $4, or $2 > in quantity 100, which you'd certainly be looking at for more > than one or two units). It's a TSSOP-14 package, which isn't > exactly tiny, but it's smaller than a DIP in most respects. It > has a dual-element cousin, the MAX9107, which comes in a SOT23-8 > package; I believe you could achieve higher density that way, > though you'd end up spending more per gate. The input bias > current is in the sub-uA range, but there's no input capacitance > listed, which bothers me a bit. The outputs are TTL-compatible, > which is generally compatible with 3.3v logic as well; it has a > typical Voh of slightly more than 3.3v, but at 100uA source > current, which is well within the handling range of the built- > in protection diodes of most FPGAs (and it's close enough that > it probably wouldn't trip them). > > Another good candidate is the NE521, which has some very nice > logical gating inputs (which would save some external components > if you're using bidirectional lines on the FPGA side). It's > also a dual part, but unfortunately only available as small as > SOIC-14, which doesn't provide for a lot of density (it is > available in DIP, though, which should make some people happy). > Its propagation delay is 12 ns instead of the MAX910x's 25, > though both are still comfortably below the 32 required for DEC > buses. Bias current is a max of 40 uA over temperature range > (DEC max for the receiver unit load is 80 uA). It also does > not provide an input capacitance; I suppose it's common with > comparators? This one is also not as cheap per gate; even in > quantity 100, it's still almost $4 each ($2 per gate), which > probably offsets the convenience of having the enables built > in to the part for most people (especially considering the > larger package size). > > In any case, the solution doesn't seem as infeasible as I > previously thought. Anyone want to go in on a few test boards > together to split the costs? It seems like it would be prudent > to make a few short (2 inches, maybe) dual-width boards to test > input and output capacitance/waveforms before we try making > whole boards, and if someone has a UNIBUS machine they're > willing (and able) to test out on, that would be handy since I > definitely do not. Also, are there major flaws in the above > analysis? Am I totally smoking crack? > > The app note I referenced is here: > > http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla139/snla139.pdf > > There's another interesting related one here: > > http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla134/snla134.pdf > > > - Dave > > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Oct 25 00:26:22 2012 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:26:22 -0700 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> On Oct 24, 2012, at 7:57 PM, David Riley wrote: > > The driver is generally the easy part; there are quite a few FETs > out there that ought to do the job acceptably. You need a total > (driver + receiver) capacitance of 9.35 pf, which is generally > the tallest order, but it's easy enough to limit the slew rate of > the pulldown by putting a series resistor in line with the gate. > I believe Peter Wallace recommended the FDV301N, which seems as > good as any; put one for the driver and one at the source as a > gate for a group of them, and you should have a pretty effective > transceiver. It might take a bit of space, and you'll eat a lot > in assembly if you're not doing it yourself, but as Dave McGuire > pointed out, if your main logic is contained in a micro and/or > CPLD/FPGA, you're going to have plenty of space. And for SOT-23 > packages, you can probably get close enough to the density of the > original (quad-gate) DIP devices. The FDV301N claims a Coss of > 6 pf, though I haven't done my homework to think about how the > other parasitics affect the input capacitance. I've been thinking about this too. My thought was to use a 74abt125 as the driver. Since it's a tri-state output, I'd ground the input and use the OE enable as the data (which would invert it). IOL is 64ma. Rise/fall times are 10ns/V but that could be slowed with a series resistor. Thoughts? > > The receiver is a little harder. In the National (now re-branded > by TI, which is hilarious considering the part was obsolete and > long out of production by the time TI acquired them) app note on > the DS3662, they indicate that they essentially just did the > obvious thing and used a comparator for the input. Doing so with > discrete comparators is possible, but generally costly in terms > of both money and board space, and I've found parametric searches > of comparators to be a bit tricky, depending on where you look. > At least looking through what Digi-Key offers (and they're pretty > much the best parametric search I know), there are few quad units > fast enough which don't break the bank. > > The MAX9108 is a good candidate, though (quad gate for $4, or $2 > in quantity 100, which you'd certainly be looking at for more > than one or two units). It's a TSSOP-14 package, which isn't > exactly tiny, but it's smaller than a DIP in most respects. It > has a dual-element cousin, the MAX9107, which comes in a SOT23-8 > package; I believe you could achieve higher density that way, > though you'd end up spending more per gate. The input bias > current is in the sub-uA range, but there's no input capacitance > listed, which bothers me a bit. The outputs are TTL-compatible, > which is generally compatible with 3.3v logic as well; it has a > typical Voh of slightly more than 3.3v, but at 100uA source > current, which is well within the handling range of the built- > in protection diodes of most FPGAs (and it's close enough that > it probably wouldn't trip them). I like that part. Looks good for the receiver. > > > In any case, the solution doesn't seem as infeasible as I > previously thought. Anyone want to go in on a few test boards > together to split the costs? It seems like it would be prudent > to make a few short (2 inches, maybe) dual-width boards to test > input and output capacitance/waveforms before we try making > whole boards, and if someone has a UNIBUS machine they're > willing (and able) to test out on, that would be handy since I > definitely do not. Also, are there major flaws in the above > analysis? Am I totally smoking crack? It's something that I've worried about. I have a quantity (500+/-) of various DEC drivers/receivers but they go quickly when building boards. TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 25 00:33:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 01:33:30 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> References: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5088CF2A.5050102@neurotica.com> On 10/25/2012 01:26 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> The driver is generally the easy part; there are quite a few FETs >> out there that ought to do the job acceptably. You need a total >> (driver + receiver) capacitance of 9.35 pf, which is generally >> the tallest order, but it's easy enough to limit the slew rate of >> the pulldown by putting a series resistor in line with the gate. >> I believe Peter Wallace recommended the FDV301N, which seems as >> good as any; put one for the driver and one at the source as a >> gate for a group of them, and you should have a pretty effective >> transceiver. It might take a bit of space, and you'll eat a lot >> in assembly if you're not doing it yourself, but as Dave McGuire >> pointed out, if your main logic is contained in a micro and/or >> CPLD/FPGA, you're going to have plenty of space. And for SOT-23 >> packages, you can probably get close enough to the density of the >> original (quad-gate) DIP devices. The FDV301N claims a Coss of >> 6 pf, though I haven't done my homework to think about how the >> other parasitics affect the input capacitance. > > I've been thinking about this too. My thought was to use a 74abt125 as the driver. > Since it's a tri-state output, I'd ground the input and use the OE enable as the data (which would > invert it). IOL is 64ma. Rise/fall times are 10ns/V but that could be slowed with a series > resistor. > > Thoughts? Is there a speed penalty for using /OE instead of the gate's actual input? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 00:42:33 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:42:33 -0700 Subject: Another Apple 1 for sale? In-Reply-To: <1599968590-1351109008-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1315796958-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <72fc600270bd9a74e32e4b5775798291.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> <1599968590-1351109008-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1315796958-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <5088D149.60803@gmail.com> On 10/24/2012 1:03 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Given I do think there's a bit of a price/popularity bubble with Jobs' fairly recent passing still in memories. I think that bubble burst a long time ago. The last Apple I at Chirstie's didn't even sell. Steve Jobs died over a year ago. From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 17:39:47 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:39:47 -0600 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? Message-ID: I have been trying to get a microvax II fully functional over the last few weeks and I seem to have a roadblock. The system used to boot and allow logins, but now after connecting a VCB-02 cable to display, keyboard and mouse, it has become more and more unreliable. It may be possible that some assistance I got from a colleague might have helped to cause this situation, but I think its unlikely. When the system was booting properly, it wouldn't bring up decwindows even when the display, kb, and mouse were attached to the bulkhead cable (bc18z). I was asked to check the WINDOW_SYSTEM variable within sysgen to determine if the current value was anything other than 1. In this case it was 2. He asked me to change the value to 1, and then to write it to current and active, then complete an autoconfigure all. I don't feel this is a factor, because when I boot into conversational mode and set the WINDOW_SYSTEM variable to 0 the system still faults when I perform a @sys$system:startup. In conversational mode, when I launch the startup.com script, the kernel panics as it does when it boots in normal mode. I was hoping to edit the startup.com script (or move it to a safe location and place a partial startup script in its place), but I'm not sure what parts I need to have. If I dont run the startup script, I can't run anal/crash because of protection issues. At first when connected to a display the system would kernel panic during boot. It would boot WITHOUT the display being connected, however, so I continued using it without the display. Unfortunately, now it appears to panic every boot, and I can't get to a prompt to run any diagnostics such as anal/crash. No user based changes were made to the system between boots. The real brain teaser is that it doesn't always crash during the same process load, I have been trying to get a microvax II fully functional over the last few weeks and I seem to have a roadblock. The system used to boot and allow logins, but now after connecting a VCB-02 cable to display, keyboard and mouse, it has become more and more unreliable. The real brain teaser is that it doesn't always crash during the same process load, sometimes its OPCOM, sometimes its STARTUP, sometimes its DECW$STARTUP as it is below. Anyone have any insight on how to proceed? I'm not a very experienced user. A crash example is below: KA630-A.V1.3 Performing normal system tests. 7..6..5..4..3.. Tests completed. >>> boot 2..1..0.. VAX/VMS Version V5.2 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0  $! Copyright (c) 1989 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. The VAX/VMS system is now executing the system startup procedure. **** FATAL BUG CHECK, VERSION = V5.2 MACHINECHK, Machine check while in kernel mode CRASH CPU: 00 PRIMARY CPU: 00 ACTIVE/AVAILABLE CPU MASKS: 00000001/00000001 CURRENT PROCESS = DECW$STARTUP REGISTER DUMP R0 = 00000000 R1 = 7FF38058 R2 = 00000000 R3 = 00000268 R4 = 00000000 R5 = 00000000 R6 = 00004152 R7 = 00000001 R8 = 0000026C R9 = 00003FDC R10= 000042DC R11= 00006CF0 AP = 7FF380FC FP = 7FF380C0 SP = 803AF1E0 PC = 8028D977 PSL= 04DF0008 KERNEL/INTERRUPT/BOOT STACK 803AF1E8 0000000C 803AF1EC 00000082 803AF1F0 7FF38058 803AF1F4 02000002 803AF1F8 00001534 803AF1FC 03C00001 LOADED IMAGES [SYSMSG]SYSMSG.EXE 800E0600 8010A400 [SYS$LDR]SYSLDR_DYN.EXE 80195200 80196C00 [SYS$LDR]DDIF$RMS_EXTENSION.EXE 80197000 80198200 [SYS$LDR]RECOVERY_UNIT_SERVICES.EXE 80198200 80198E00 [SYS$LDR]RMS.EXE 8010A400 80130200 SYS$NETWORK_SERVICES.EXE 80130C00 80130E00 SYS$TRANSACTION_SERVICES.EXE 80131400 80131600 CPULOA.EXE 80131C00 80133200 LMF$GROUP_TABLE.EXE 80133C00 80134600 SYSLICENSE.EXE 80134A00 80136000 SYSGETSYI.EXE 80136600 80137C00 SYSDEVICE.EXE 80138000 80139600 MESSAGE_ROUTINES.EXE 80139C00 8013C800 EXCEPTION.EXE 8014CC00 80155400 LOGICAL_NAMES.EXE 80155C00 80157600 SECURITY.EXE 80157C00 80159400 LOCKING.EXE 80159A00 8015C200 PAGE_MANAGEMENT.EXE 8015C800 80164800 WORKING_SET_MANAGEMENT.EXE 80165000 80169600 IMAGE_MANAGEMENT.EXE 8016A000 8016CA00 EVENT_FLAGS_AND_ASTS.EXE 8016D000 8016E400 IO_ROUTINES.EXE 8016EA00 80175C00 PROCESS_MANAGEMENT.EXE 80176200 8017E800 ERRORLOG.EXE 8018BC00 8018C600 PRIMITIVE_IO.EXE 8018CC00 8018DC00 SYSTEM_SYNCHRONIZATION_UNI.EXE 8018E000 8018F600 SYSTEM_PRIMITIVES.EXE 8018FC00 80193000 **** STARTING MEMORY DUMP.... ERROR WRITING 127 BLOCK(S), STARTING AT VBN 5471 - STATUS = 00000054 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 25 01:20:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 02:20:31 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5086C3C3.4020204@verizon.net> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> <5086B1D0.4020103@neurotica.com> <5086C3C3.4020204@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5088DA2F.8090801@neurotica.com> On 10/23/2012 12:20 PM, Allison wrote: >> I've finally gotten the paddle board, just a few months ago, and now I >> need to find (or more likely make) a drive cable. > > I may have one of those floating around.. Have to hunt for it. That would be great! > I also have spares (vt180 boards, Vt100 boards, Vt125 board set) > for mine. Actually years ago (1985) I bought a box of VT180 boards > for $25 all good but none of the other kit. I use them standalone as > mods needed to make them run without the VT100 are trivial and > its a good 4mhz Z80 CP/M platform for project and things. You've mentioned that big stack of them that you scored. Very nice! I have one spare VT180 board; I didn't know it was that easy to run them standalone, but I guess it makes sense as it's almost completely self-contained as it is. I'd love to try that. Can you share the info? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 25 02:26:04 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:26:04 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/10/2012 02:08, Tothwolf wrote: > Not so fast. DEC was already doing this with 6P6C MMJ cables with a > nearly identical system before Dave Yost came up with his standard using > 8P8C adapters and cables. The additional two wires available with the > 8P8C connectors allows for RTS/CTS. Yes, I know - I have plenty of MMJ stuff - but it was always DEC-specific. The beauty of the Yost pinout is that it is uses ubiquitous cables as well as a simple and versatile pinout. Hence it's adoption by Cisco and Sun. Everyone else was doing something unique and often not even consistent within one product line (three different 8P8C pinouts for Shiva terminal servers with the same model number is the most extreme example I recall). The Wikipedia page lists three 8P8C pinouts. My department's internal wiki lists eight that we had to have cables for :-( Well, seven we used, and TIA561 for completeness. I've never known anything actually use that one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Oct 25 06:17:50 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 07:17:50 -0400 Subject: This is a VT180 right ? In-Reply-To: <5088DA2F.8090801@neurotica.com> References: <1350753728.15505.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <452061D7-A047-4176-9B54-3E248040F2DA@me.com> <20121020210410.O94712@shell.lmi.net> <1350944428.99469.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121022153940.C47612@shell.lmi.net> <5085DED4.1070308@gmail.com> <5085E19F.3090809@neurotica.com> <5086B1D0.4020103@neurotica.com> <5086C3C3.4020204@verizon.net> <5088DA2F.8090801@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50891FDE.30205@verizon.net> On 10/25/2012 02:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/23/2012 12:20 PM, Allison wrote: >>> I've finally gotten the paddle board, just a few months ago, and now I >>> need to find (or more likely make) a drive cable. >> I may have one of those floating around.. Have to hunt for it. > That would be great! Only about 10 boxes to look in and shed storage. > >> I also have spares (vt180 boards, Vt100 boards, Vt125 board set) >> for mine. Actually years ago (1985) I bought a box of VT180 boards >> for $25 all good but none of the other kit. I use them standalone as >> mods needed to make them run without the VT100 are trivial and >> its a good 4mhz Z80 CP/M platform for project and things. > You've mentioned that big stack of them that you scored. Very nice! > I have one spare VT180 board; I didn't know it was that easy to run them > standalone, but I guess it makes sense as it's almost completely > self-contained as it is. I'd love to try that. Can you share the info? I'll have to dig that out. The biggest part of that is power, 5V3A, +12 at .2a, -12 at .1A that excludes the floppy. Add +5 1A and +12 1A per floppy. The base system does single sided 40 track so most any drive works. The other signals are jumpering baud rate clock to the console port (normally comes from VT100). Three of the 4 ports need to have their signals brought to connectors, they originate on the 16 pin socket. The last one is POR (power on reset). One note: the base rom set comes up and looks for the vt100 (does a query for device) and requires the normal VT100 response. You should also find a print set. Allison > -Dave > From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 07:00:54 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:00:54 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> References: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <567ADB05-94FE-431E-A18B-E2D359A9627C@gmail.com> On Oct 25, 2012, at 1:26, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > I've been thinking about this too. My thought was to use a 74abt125 as the driver. > Since it's a tri-state output, I'd ground the input and use the OE enable as the data (which would > invert it). IOL is 64ma. Rise/fall times are 10ns/V but that could be slowed with a series > resistor. That's actually a little slow; that would correspond to a rise/ fall time of about 35 ns. Also, I couldn't find a datasheet that specified an output min rise/fall time, but that sounds like the numbers I was seeing for input. Otherwise, that seems like a pretty decent part! MUCH cheaper than the AS760/641, too. I'll throw one on the test board. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 07:02:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:02:59 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: <5088CF2A.5050102@neurotica.com> References: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> <5088CF2A.5050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2012, at 1:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > Is there a speed penalty for using /OE instead of the gate's actual input? Not really. Tpd and the output enable times are roughly the same. I don't see output rise/fall times in any of the datasheets I've found, but that doesn't mean they don't exist; there are plenty more brands to check. - Dave From skaye2005 at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 07:17:32 2012 From: skaye2005 at gmail.com (Steve Kaye) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 07:17:32 -0500 Subject: Looking for Roland LAPC-I & Creative CT1320C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50892DDC.1020106@gmail.com> I'm a newbie here so I apologize in advance if I am not doing this right! Anyways, I am a collector of vintage soundcards and I'm looking for a Creative Sound Blaster CT1320A or CT1320C as well as a Roland LAPC-I ISA sound card. Thanks!! Steve On 10/25/2012 2:30 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Zane H. Healy) > 2. Re: VMS newbie with sick VAXstation (mc68010) > 3. Re: Superbrain schematics (Anthony Wallach) > 4. Re: pdp 14/30 chassis on ebay (Jochen Kunz) > 5. Re: Another Apple 1 for sale? (barythrin at gmail.com) > 6. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Sridhar Ayengar) > 7. Re: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available (Philip Pemberton) > 8. Re: PERQ monitor problem (was HP 9845 power supply > diagnostics) (Tony Duell) > 9. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Chris Tofu) > 10. Re: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available (Pete Turnbull) > 11. Re: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available (Tothwolf) > 12. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Francois Dion) > 13. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Zane H. Healy) > 14. QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) (David Riley) > 15. Re: Blue screen of Basic (Chris Tofu) > 16. Re: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) (Dave McGuire) > 17. Re: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) (Guy Sotomayor) > 18. Re: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) (Dave McGuire) > 19. Re: Another Apple 1 for sale? (mc68010) > 20. Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? (Kevin Reynolds) > 21. Re: This is a VT180 right ? (Dave McGuire) > 22. Re: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available (Pete Turnbull) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 10:35:09 -0700 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Blue screen of Basic > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" > > I've always preferred the following. The key > part is how I end line 10 with the spaces and the > semicolon. > > 10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; > 20 GOTO 10 > > Zane > > > > At 10:56 AM -0400 10/24/12, Francois Dion wrote: >> On the last guessing thread (it lives! about the >> CES apple clone), William said: >> "Make it PRINT "HELLO" and then GOTO 10 for me >> one more time, won't you please?" >> >> And the C64 fans were also left in want, so I present to you the Blue >> Screen Of Basic: >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/blue-screen-of-basic.html >> >> I'm sure quite a few people already know what it is... The follow up >> post wont be a clue but simply a detailed post on this modern retro >> computer. >> >> >> Fran?ois >> >> -- >> solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Oct 25 07:17:50 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:17:50 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> At 06:39 PM 10/24/2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >.... A crash example is below: > > >**** FATAL BUG CHECK, VERSION = V5.2 MACHINECHK, Machine check >while in kernel mode >... > KERNEL/INTERRUPT/BOOT STACK > > 803AF1E8 0000000C > 803AF1EC 00000082 > 803AF1F0 7FF38058 > 803AF1F4 02000002 > 803AF1F8 00001534 > 803AF1FC 03C00001 Here's what that machine check stack frame means: 803AF1E8 0000000C 12 bytes of parameters 803AF1EC 00000082 Machine check code = Write bus error, virtual address 803AF1F0 7FF38058 Virtual address 803AF1F4 02000002 Internal CPU state. 803AF1F8 00001534 PC 803AF1FC 03C00001 PSL It seems that you are getting hard memory write faults on the stack. Maybe something is hanging up the Q-bus, or you have failing memory. If you have diagnostics, running a memory test for a while may get you somewhere. Otherwise, I'd look into trying to pinpoint the problem by removing memory modules and see if the system becomes more stable (assuming you have multiple memory cards, of course). -Rick From chrise at pobox.com Thu Oct 25 11:05:01 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:05:01 -0500 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: References: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> <5088CF2A.5050102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121025160501.GI28056@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (10/25/2012 at 08:02AM -0400), David Riley wrote: > On Oct 25, 2012, at 1:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Is there a speed penalty for using /OE instead of the gate's actual input? > > Not really. Tpd and the output enable times are roughly > the same. I don't see output rise/fall times in any of > the datasheets I've found, but that doesn't mean > they don't exist; there are plenty more brands to check. Wondering if you are considering the voltage level translations to modern FPGA and micros in whatever transceiver scheme is selected too? ie, if we put down 3.3V or 1.8V modern parts, how do we get to/from the 5V domain on the backplane? I haven't had a chance to look at all the Tpd characteristics, but TI have a lot of parts that do this kind of thing. eg, http://www.ti.com/product/sn74gtl2003 and an app note here, http://www.ti.com/lit/scea006 Chris -- Chris Elmquist From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 11:36:29 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:36:29 -0400 Subject: QBUS/UNIBUS transceivers (again) In-Reply-To: <20121025160501.GI28056@n0jcf.net> References: <9E51826C-9558-46E1-A21E-C56A1F94C487@shiresoft.com> <5088CF2A.5050102@neurotica.com> <20121025160501.GI28056@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <38F36542-F97D-43CB-BFA0-8C14119D9D2E@gmail.com> On Oct 25, 2012, at 12:05, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Wondering if you are considering the voltage level translations to > modern FPGA and micros in whatever transceiver scheme is selected too? > ie, if we put down 3.3V or 1.8V modern parts, how do we get to/from the > 5V domain on the backplane? Certainly. The bright side is that 3.3v drives TTL inputs (which typically have a Vih of 2v or so) just fine. If our FPGA/ CPLD is running 3.3v I/O, we're set as far as driving out. Input is a little more shaky, since all the comparators I've specified here have TTL outputs as well, which means a typical Voh of 3.5v. That's still within the maximum limits of most 3.3v input stages on FPGAs, and they often have protection diodes which kick in above 3.6v (largely for reflected-wave switching buses like PCI where you're just about guaranteed excursions above 3.3v). They can typically absorb a few mA each, and the TTL outputs of these comparators don't drove high more than about 100 uA. So we should be good on the interfacing. I've definitely used the AVC family parts for CMOS voltage level translation, where it really matters because CMOS drives hard in both directions almost rail to rail. My personal "favorite" was a TI DSP that didn't have any I/O voltage EXCEPT 1.8v, which meant we had to use those to talk to nearly every peripheral on the board. Since I don't see any reason to put down anything other than 3.3v parts for the FPGA/micro, I think we ought to be set. - Dave From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 25 11:46:14 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:46:14 +0100 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/10/2012 03:37, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:44 PM -0400 10/24/12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): >> >> 10 GOTO 10 > LOL! Well I guess it has the advantage of being 'bug free'. :-) Not necessarily :-) Some versions of BASIC would reject that because it has no END statement. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From shumaker at att.net Thu Oct 25 12:09:41 2012 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:09:41 -0400 Subject: CRAY Stuff at NASA was: Nasa Technical Report - An operating system for the LINC computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50897255.3040803@att.net> On 10/24/2012 10:52 AM, SPC wrote: > Searching in the NASA Technical Reports Server I've located this document: > > An operating system for the LINC computer > > Url: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19660006438_1966006438.pdf > > It appears to contain the source code of a BLINK compiler. > > Regards > Sergio > > fascinating web site that has files going way back. but for those Cray afficionados that lurk here, the archives server search page also reports some 4000 plus files on the Crays that NASA has used ...again going back to the Cray 2 and XMP... memories abound! http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp s2 From saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Oct 25 12:19:40 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? Message-ID: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Make sure all your connections are firm and good, especially the PMI connection over the ribbon cable. I'd probably even take the ribbon cable off and re-crimp it in a vise to make sure the connections are firm. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Oct 25 13:09:48 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 11:09:48 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > >> The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): > >> > >> 10 GOTO 10 My first program was: 10 GOSUB 10 20 END This was on an HP 2000C Timeshared Basic System sometime in 1975-ish. The END was there because a program wouldn't run on this system if there wasn't an END statement. After a little while, the program halted with an error, something about GOSUB with no RETURN, IIRC. It's interesting to try this on various different BASICs as it does create a situation where, if the bounds checking on the stack containing the return statement numbers/pointers isn't good, you can cause "interesting" things to happen. There are a few BASICs I've tried this on where the program will actually crash BASIC. Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 13:19:54 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 14:19:54 -0400 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > My first program was: > > 10 GOSUB 10 > 20 END > > It's interesting to try this on various different BASICs as it does > create a situation where, if the bounds checking on the stack containing > the return statement numbers/pointers isn't good, you can cause > "interesting" things to happen. There are a few BASICs I've tried this > on where the program will actually crash BASIC. On the C-64 (and the PET* and VIC-20), it runs 24 levels deep (I added a counter and a print) then the program exits with "?OUT OF MEMORY ERROR IN 10". The C-64 is unharmed. -ethan * BASIC 1 gets to 26 levels before quitting From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 14:26:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20121025122208.G43276@shell.lmi.net> > > It's interesting to try this on various different BASICs as it does > > create a situation where, if the bounds checking on the stack containing > > the return statement numbers/pointers isn't good, you can cause > > "interesting" things to happen. There are a few BASICs I've tried this > > on where the program will actually crash BASIC. WHAT "return" statement??!? Anything otyher than JMP $ is BROKEN! On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On the C-64 (and the PET* and VIC-20), it runs 24 levels deep (I added > a counter and a print) then the program exits with "?OUT OF MEMORY > ERROR IN 10". The C-64 is unharmed. > > -ethan > > * BASIC 1 gets to 26 levels before quitting So, you can't even do: 10 PRINT "Welcome to DOS!" 20 PRINT "C:\DERP> "; 30 INPUT A$ 40 PRINT "Bad command od filename" 50 GOTO 20 60 END Is THAT why operating systems aren't written in BASIC? :-) From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Oct 25 14:29:44 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:29:44 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <50899328.2000009@verizon.net> On 10/25/2012 08:17 AM, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 06:39 PM 10/24/2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> .... A crash example is below: >> >> >> **** FATAL BUG CHECK, VERSION = V5.2 MACHINECHK, Machine check >> while in kernel mode >> ... >> KERNEL/INTERRUPT/BOOT STACK >> >> 803AF1E8 0000000C >> 803AF1EC 00000082 >> 803AF1F0 7FF38058 >> 803AF1F4 02000002 >> 803AF1F8 00001534 >> 803AF1FC 03C00001 > > > Here's what that machine check stack frame means: > > 803AF1E8 0000000C 12 bytes of parameters > 803AF1EC 00000082 Machine check code = Write bus > error, virtual address > 803AF1F0 7FF38058 Virtual address > 803AF1F4 02000002 Internal CPU state. > 803AF1F8 00001534 PC > 803AF1FC 03C00001 PSL > > > It seems that you are getting hard memory write faults on the stack. > Maybe something is hanging up the Q-bus, or you have failing memory. > If you have diagnostics, running a memory test for a while may get you > somewhere. Otherwise, I'd look into trying to pinpoint the problem by > removing memory modules and see if the system becomes more stable > (assuming you have multiple memory cards, of course). > -Rick > > My bet is to suggest that the memory over the top connector is munged if not pull out the video subsystem and move the cards up and try a boot then. Allison From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Oct 25 14:42:55 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 15:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121025122208.G43276@shell.lmi.net> References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> <20121025122208.G43276@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210251942.PAA09885@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> * BASIC 1 gets to 26 levels before quitting > So, you can't even do: > 10 PRINT "Welcome to DOS!" > 20 PRINT "C:\DERP> "; > 30 INPUT A$ > 40 PRINT "Bad command od filename" > 50 GOTO 20 > 60 END Sure you can. It's the version that instead says 50 GOSUB 20 that will fail (after 26 commands or so). Also, "od" is a tipoff that it's not a real DOS. od is a Unix command, y'see. :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 15:02:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <201210251942.PAA09885@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> <20121025122208.G43276@shell.lmi.net> <201210251942.PAA09885@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121025130138.C43276@shell.lmi.net> > > So, you can't even do: > > 10 PRINT "Welcome to DOS!" > > 20 PRINT "C:\DERP> "; > > 30 INPUT A$ > > 40 PRINT "Bad command od filename" > > 50 GOTO 20 > > 60 END On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > Also, "od" is a tipoff that it's not a real DOS. od is a Unix > command, y'see. :) They had to clean up the typos and spelling for the IBM release. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 15:17:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <201210251942.PAA09885@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <50886138.5010909@gmail.com> <50896CD6.4010300@dunnington.plus.com> <20121025122208.G43276@shell.lmi.net> <201210251942.PAA09885@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121025131144.F44565@shell.lmi.net> > >> * BASIC 1 gets to 26 levels before quitting > > So, you can't even do: > > 10 PRINT "Welcome to DOS!" > > 20 PRINT "C:\DERP> "; > > 30 INPUT A$ > > 40 PRINT "Bad command od filename" > > 50 GOTO 20 > > 60 END On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > Sure you can. It's the version that instead says 50 GOSUB 20 that will > fail (after 26 commands or so). You are RIGHT! I failed to notice that during the discussion, somebody had changed the GOTO to a GOSUB One more reason why I should not write interpreters and compilers. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 15:26:28 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:26:28 +0000 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <192986593-1351196794-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-335393121-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Bad programming techniques aside, I hadn't previously heard of this pocket computer. So its a propeller development board? Is it really emulating a computer or just enough to run a basic interpreter? Sounds neat (similar to pi) other than ending up with all the huge peripherals again. -----Original Message----- From: Francois Dion Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 22:17:03 To: The Rescue List Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Subject: Re: Blue screen of Basic So, for those that hadn't heard of it, the computer on these screenshots: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/blue-screen-of-basic.html is a Pocket Mini Computer. It is based on a propeller P8X32A board, with a vga output. I'll be adding the extra 32KB when I receive the chips. I detailed what is in the kit here: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/pocket-mini-computer-kit.html and from there, is a link to the actual build. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 25 16:12:58 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:12:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I have been trying to get a microvax II fully functional over the last > few weeks and I seem to have a roadblock. The system used to boot and > allow logins, but now after connecting a VCB-02 cable to display, > keyboard and mouse, it has become more and more unreliable. > At first when connected to a display the system would kernel panic > during boot. It would boot WITHOUT the display being connected, > however, so I continued using it without the display. Unfortunately, > now it appears to panic every boot, and I can't get to a prompt to run > any diagnostics such as anal/crash. No user based changes were made to > the system between boots. The real brain teaser is that it doesn't > always crash during the same process load, I have been trying to get a > microvax II fully functional over the last few weeks and I seem to have > a roadblock. The system used to boot and allow logins, but now after > connecting a VCB-02 cable to display, keyboard and mouse, it has become > more and more unreliable. The real brain teaser is that it doesn't > always crash during the same process load, sometimes its OPCOM, > sometimes its STARTUP, sometimes its DECW$STARTUP as it is below. > Anyone have any insight on how to proceed? I'm not a very experienced > user. A crash example is below: If you haven't already, check the outputs of the power supply with an oscilloscope. This is exactly what my BA123 MicroVAX II / MicroVAX III (tried different board sets) did and it turned out to have very bad ripple on the outputs. I'm fairly certain my BA123's power supply has bad electrolytics, but unfortunately I don't have a list of parts because I've not yet rebuilt it. At the time I didn't have room on the bench to tear it down so I put the project aside and I've not yet gotten back to it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 25 16:23:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:23:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF80EC0D2F250A-15B4-358D5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Scott Quinn wrote: > Make sure all your connections are firm and good, especially the PMI > connection over the ribbon cable. > I'd probably even take the ribbon cable off and re-crimp it in a vise to > make sure the connections are firm. I wouldn't recommend that. If the plastic guide is already fully seated (as it should have been when the connector was pressed on at the factory) then putting it in a vice is only likely to damage the connector. Trying to re-press ribbon cables is somewhat futile anyway. If individual IDC connections are loose, it is time to clip and replace the connector (or build a new cable if it is an inside connector). Given the nature of the IDC terminations used in these connectors, they are unlikely to fail on their own and most of the failures I've seen have been with cables that people would repeatedly unplug by pulling on the cable. In a case such as this case no amount of re-pressing the connector is going to be able to repair the damage done to the IDC terminations. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:57:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:57:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 24, 12 07:37:40 pm Message-ID: > > At 5:44 PM -0400 10/24/12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 > >>with the spaces and the semicolon. > >> > >>10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; > >>20 GOTO 10 > > > >The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): > > > >10 GOTO 10 > > > >Peace... Sridhar > > LOL! Well I guess it has the advantage of being 'bug free'. :-) I Not so. Both of the above programs produced an error message on one of the machines here. A machien that has a BAISC interpretter in ROM. The problem is that the HP9830 BASIC (and others I guess) _require_ an END as the last statement of the program. > find myself tempted to turn on my Commodore 64 and try it. > > BTW, I'm quite happy to report that as part of the project to redo my > darkroom, I've set my Commodore 64 back up (yes, in the darkroom > area). In fact part of the time I was supposed to be working on the > Darkroom last Saturday I was actually playing a game on the C64. :-) Are you planning on using the C64 as an enlarger timer or soemthing? IIRC 'Cotnrol the World with HPIL' has an enlarger meter/timer based on one of the hP handhelds (HP41?) One of Thomas Tomosy's books on camera repair has a chutter testing timer based on a C64 with a photosensoe conencted ot the joystick port. -tony From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 25 16:45:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:45:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2012, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 25/10/2012 02:08, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Not so fast. DEC was already doing this with 6P6C MMJ cables with a >> nearly identical system before Dave Yost came up with his standard >> using 8P8C adapters and cables. The additional two wires available with >> the 8P8C connectors allows for RTS/CTS. > > Yes, I know - I have plenty of MMJ stuff - but it was always > DEC-specific. The beauty of the Yost pinout is that it is uses > ubiquitous cables as well as a simple and versatile pinout. Hence it's > adoption by Cisco and Sun. Everyone else was doing something unique and > often not even consistent within one product line (three different 8P8C > pinouts for Shiva terminal servers with the same model number is the > most extreme example I recall). Well, my point was that Cisco likely didn't "steal" the idea from Dave Yost per se. Given that the pinout for the inside 6 connections of the 6P6C MMJ cables (DTR, TD, GND, GND, RD, DSR) is identical to that of the Yost standard (RTS, DTR, TD, GND, GND, RD, DSR+CD, CTS) I suspect Dave had some prior experience with the DEC 6P6C MMJ standard and used that as the basis for the Yost 8P8C standard. The upside to this is that in a pinch, you could take a 6P6C MMJ to 6P6C cable like those I used to make and plug the non-MMJ end into an 8P8C connector and only lose RTS/CTS. [Note that doing this with cheaper 6P6C plugs that don't have slots molded in for pins 1 and 8 /will/ bend and damage pins 1 and 8 in the 8P8C connector, so even though there are people who swear by using 8P8C jacks with 6P6C plugs for stuff like POTS telephone applications, I don't really recommend it.] > The Wikipedia page lists three 8P8C pinouts. My department's internal > wiki lists eight that we had to have cables for :-( Well, seven we > used, and TIA561 for completeness. I've never known anything actually > use that one. Are any of those other pinouts "standard"? I've found the material in several of these Wikipedia articles to be very incomplete. That table in particular only gives the pinout for the DCE version of the Yost standard, and doesn't even label it as such. I'm tempted to update it, but the table format someone used doesn't lend itself to easy updates and it has been over a year or more since I worked with these sorts of tables and converted one to the easier to manage format. Sigh. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Oct 25 18:41:57 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:41:57 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5089CE45.3080402@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/10/2012 22:45, Tothwolf wrote: > Are any of those other pinouts "standard"? I've found the material in > several of these Wikipedia articles to be very incomplete. Well, for certain values of "standard", perhaps. Xylogics used one pinout that was standard across their product line. One of the pinouts we used is for data leads only, putting TxD, RxD and SG on pins 1, 3 and 2+6 respectively. That was devised by my boss, though I'm fairly sure others have done the same thing. I believe some of the DB25-to-8P8C adapters we have like that are off-the-shelf. The point of that pinout is, of course, that you can use standard TIA-568 cables to make the connections with Tx on one twisted pair and Rx on another, and use standard crossover cables as a null-modem. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From marcogb at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 25 18:46:30 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 01:46:30 +0200 Subject: FS: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?2=D7_Compaq_DS10?= In-Reply-To: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> References: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5089CF56.8040703@xs4all.nl> On 20-10-2012 3:37, MG wrote: > [...] One has been sold, with only one left and namely the one without the nameplate and the potentially 'flawed' CD-ROM drive. (Note: I don't have any 256 Mbyte kits left, so I only have the pricey 1 Gbyte kits.) I'd also like to thank the new owner of the DS10 again for the very pleasant communication and transaction and the best of luck with the system! - MG From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 25 18:57:20 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 16:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C.B. Falconer 1931-2012 Message-ID: Reposted from comp.os.cpm by Charles Richmond I am sorry to report that C.B. "Chuck" Falconer has passed away. He used to be a regular in alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.cpm, and comp.lang.c. He had a long and involved history with computers and programming. He was born in Switzerland on September 13, 1931 and passed away in Damariscotta, Maine on June 4, 2012. I'm sure most everyone here remembers him and his posts to Usenet. One of his many accomplishments was writing an article for an early Dr. Dobbs magazine on implementing floating point on the Intel 8080 microprocessor. His resent resume and the downloadable files from a recent web page of his... can be found at You can a recent resume of his at the ClassicCmp website: http://tinyurl.com/8fudn4o His obituary is at: http://tinyurl.com/8ahongj -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Oct 25 20:14:03 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:14:03 -0500 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> Message: 5 Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 08:17:50 -0400 From: Rick Murphy To: Subject: Re: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? Message-ID: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262 at rickmurphy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:39 PM 10/24/2012, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > >.... A crash example is below: > > > > > >**** FATAL BUG CHECK, VERSION = V5.2 MACHINECHK, Machine check > >while in kernel mode > >... > > KERNEL/INTERRUPT/BOOT STACK > > > > 803AF1E8 0000000C > > 803AF1EC 00000082 > > 803AF1F0 7FF38058 > > 803AF1F4 02000002 > > 803AF1F8 00001534 > > 803AF1FC 03C00001 > Here's what that machine check stack frame means: 803AF1E8 0000000C 12 bytes of parameters 803AF1EC 00000082 Machine check code = Write bus error, virtual address 803AF1F0 7FF38058 Virtual address 803AF1F4 02000002 Internal CPU state. 803AF1F8 00001534 PC 803AF1FC 03C00001 PSL It seems that you are getting hard memory write faults on the stack. Maybe something is hanging up the Q-bus, or you have failing memory. If you have diagnostics, running a memory test for a while may get you somewhere. Otherwise, I'd look into trying to pinpoint the problem by removing memory modules and see if the system becomes more stable (assuming you have multiple memory cards, of course). -Rick Memory is NOT on the Q-bus, it has it's own dedicated bus on the C-D connector rows (how many slots are memory only in the CD rows depends on the specific backplane.) Possibly you might have a Q-bus board in a memory-only slot, that is certainly something to check. Otherwise, you may have a bad memory card, a bad or dirty slot, or possibly a bad CPU board. Hmm, I've never seen this error, but I think if a peripheral board is bad, it does not cause a machine check, but maybe I've never had the specific error. Can you tell what the physical address was? or, at this point, might virtual=physical? If so, is 7FF3xxxx in the Q-bus I/O space? Jon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 20:40:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:40:21 -0400 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <5089CE45.3080402@dunnington.plus.com> References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> <5089CE45.3080402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 25/10/2012 22:45, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Are any of those other pinouts "standard"? I've found the material in >> several of these Wikipedia articles to be very incomplete. > > Well, for certain values of "standard", perhaps. The Nevada Western stuff we used in the 1980s was probably vendor specific. I'd have to crack open on, but I don't remember being able to swap out the modular cable with one that was made "upside down" and turning it into a null modem. More directly, I don't think the 6P6C pinout was symmetrical (there was only one ground wire, not two in the middle). You still could get adapters that routed eight terminal sessions over a 25-pair cable with Telco 50-pin ends, and you could still use telco punchdown blocks, but the device ends weren't wired like the later Cisco stuff was. -ethan From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Oct 25 20:48:07 2012 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 21:48:07 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <201210260149.q9Q1nEQm022467@rickmurphy.net> At 09:14 PM 10/25/2012, Jon Elson wrote: >Memory is NOT on the Q-bus, it has it's own dedicated bus on >the C-D connector rows (how many slots are memory only in the >CD rows depends on the specific backplane.) Possibly you >might have a Q-bus board in a memory-only slot, that is certainly >something to check. Otherwise, you may have a bad memory card, >a bad or dirty slot, or possibly a bad CPU board. Ah yes, you're right. Microvax 2, so memory's not on the Q-bus. It's got to be a bad memory area. Enabling windows or AUTOGEN has just moved that bad chip to somewhere that's now being used. >Hmm, I've never seen this error, but I think if a peripheral >board is bad, it does not cause a machine check, but maybe I've >never had the specific error. Can you tell what the physical >address was? or, at this point, might virtual=physical? >If so, is 7FF3xxxx in the Q-bus I/O space? No, it's a virtual address. You're running with memory management enabled by that point, so the only way to figure out what physical address this corresponds to is to look at the page tables, which you could get from running SDA on the resulting dump. At this point, it's pretty likely to be a memory fault. Unless you're going to try to find out what chip to replace, my suggestion to remove RAM until it stops failing so the bad board can be isolated is probably the best simple diagnostic. Eventually, running diagnostics is probably the best thing to try. It's probably bad RAM but could also be a bad CPU. However, my experience with bad CPU modules is that they don't get very far along the boot process before dying. -Rick From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 25 21:02:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:02:23 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> On 10/25/2012 09:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Memory is NOT on the Q-bus, it has it's own dedicated bus on > the C-D connector rows (how many slots are memory only in the > CD rows depends on the specific backplane.) Actually the MicroVAX-II uses a PMI interconnect on a daisy-chained ribbon cable across the tops of the memory and CPU boards, in addition to the C-D interconnect. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 21:16:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:16:19 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/25/2012 09:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> Memory is NOT on the Q-bus, it has it's own dedicated bus on >> the C-D connector rows (how many slots are memory only in the >> CD rows depends on the specific backplane.) > > Actually the MicroVAX-II uses a PMI interconnect on a daisy-chained > ribbon cable across the tops of the memory and CPU boards, in addition > to the C-D interconnect. I was gonna say. The PMI interconnect for QBUS doesn't supply enough address pins for VAX-sized memory, nor is it 32-bit, so MV boards have their own ribbon cables as a side channel. Not knowing much about VAX failure modes but having plenty of experiences with touchy ribbon cables, I'd say that might be a good first bet. - Dave From francois.dion at gmail.com Thu Oct 25 22:03:07 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:03:07 -0400 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <192986593-1351196794-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-335393121-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <192986593-1351196794-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-335393121-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 4:26 PM, wrote: > Bad programming techniques aside, I hadn't previously heard of this pocket computer. So its a propeller development board? Is it really emulating a computer or just enough to run a basic interpreter? > > Sounds neat (similar to pi) other than ending up with all the huge peripherals again. It has 8 cores. 1 core runs basic (a tokenized basic). 1 core is assigned to emulating the SID chip. It even has filters. It was worth it just for that for me. Another core is emulating the video subsystem etc. The vga supports 64 colors, and that is done by resistor ladders. The propeller has a ton of pins, so that's not too hard. As Jeff put it: "Buying a PMC is a little like buying a snap together car model then discovering later it's actually an RC car. It's kind of our secret project that we know you'll discover it later and likely get hooked like us." I'll be adding another 32KB and the micro SD card reader this weekend. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 25 22:16:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:16:14 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com> On 10/25/2012 10:16 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 25, 2012, at 10:02 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/25/2012 09:14 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> Memory is NOT on the Q-bus, it has it's own dedicated bus on >>> the C-D connector rows (how many slots are memory only in the >>> CD rows depends on the specific backplane.) >> >> Actually the MicroVAX-II uses a PMI interconnect on a daisy-chained >> ribbon cable across the tops of the memory and CPU boards, in addition >> to the C-D interconnect. > > I was gonna say. The PMI interconnect for QBUS doesn't supply enough > address pins for VAX-sized memory, nor is it 32-bit, so MV boards have > their own ribbon cables as a side channel. It's much worse for the KD32 (MicroVAX-I). Their memory is actually on the Qbus, so not only do 32-bit transfers require two data cycles, but Qbus is ALREADY a multiplexed bus! SSSSllllooooowwwww. I love the KD32 anyway though. :) It was my first VAX, when I had worshipped VAXen from afar for many years. And you know what? It worked great. It was nowhere near as fast as my PDP-11/73, but the additional functionality of VMS and a 32-bit CPU, and the GUI made life so much nicer that I really didn't mind the performance hit. I still have a MicroVAX-I...I should really get a working system disk for it and get it running. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 25 22:46:43 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:46:43 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351139560.13578.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351139560.13578.BPMail_low_carrier@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I rarely have time for that anymore. :-( And I don't believe MegaTraveller was available on the C64. Zane At 9:32 PM -0700 10/24/12, Chris Tofu wrote: >and not playing Traveller? >------------------------------ > On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 7:37 PM PDT Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >At 5:44 PM -0400 10/24/12, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>I've always preferred the following. The key part is how I end line 10 > >>with the spaces and the semicolon. > >> > >>10 PRINT "HELLO, WORLD "; > >>20 GOTO 10 > >> > >>The first program I ever wrote in BASIC was (drumroll, please): > >> > >>10 GOTO 10 > >> > >>Peace... Sridhar > > > >LOL! Well I guess it has the advantage of being 'bug free'. :-) I > >find myself tempted to turn on my Commodore 64 and try it. > > > >BTW, I'm quite happy to report that as part of the project to redo my > >darkroom, I've set my Commodore 64 back up (yes, in the darkroom > >area). In fact part of the time I was supposed to be working on the > >Darkroom last Saturday I was actually playing a game on the C64. :-) > > > >Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 25 22:56:28 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:56:28 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:57 PM +0100 10/25/12, Tony Duell wrote: > > BTW, I'm quite happy to report that as part of the project to redo my >> darkroom, I've set my Commodore 64 back up (yes, in the darkroom >> area). In fact part of the time I was supposed to be working on the >> Darkroom last Saturday I was actually playing a game on the C64. :-) > >Are you planning on using the C64 as an enlarger timer or soemthing? IIRC >'Cotnrol the World with HPIL' has an enlarger meter/timer based on one of >the hP handhelds (HP41?) I hadn't really given that any thought, I have a very nice digital Omega timer. It's more a case of prior to Darkroom V1.0 I'd had my PDP-11/73 and Commodore 64 setup in the area. With V1 the C64 got put up on top a pile of boxes. With V2, the PDP-11/73 has been evicted :-( and the C64 has at least a temporary home. :-) >One of Thomas Tomosy's books on camera repair has a chutter testing timer >based on a C64 with a photosensoe conencted ot the joystick port. Thanks for the tip! I'll have to have a go at finding that! Looks like I need to find a copy of "Camera Maintenance and Repair", actually I think that's a book that's already on my wish list... I desperately need a shutter speed tester for some of my older gear. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From spedraja at ono.com Fri Oct 26 00:58:32 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 07:58:32 +0200 Subject: C.B. Falconer 1931-2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sad notice. SPc. 2012/10/26 David Griffith : > > Reposted from comp.os.cpm > > by Charles Richmond > I am sorry to report that C.B. "Chuck" Falconer has passed away. He used to > be a regular in alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.cpm, and comp.lang.c. He had > a long and involved history with computers and programming. He was born in > Switzerland on September 13, 1931 and passed away in Damariscotta, Maine on > June 4, 2012. I'm sure most everyone here remembers him and his posts to > Usenet. From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 14:32:09 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:32:09 -0600 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> References: , <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: > It seems that you are getting hard memory write faults on the stack. > Maybe something is hanging up the Q-bus, or you have failing memory. If > you have diagnostics, running a memory test for a while may get you > somewhere. Otherwise, I'd look into trying to pinpoint the problem by > removing memory modules and see if the system becomes more stable > (assuming you have multiple memory cards, of course). > -Rick > I do have multiple memory modules, there are two in the chassis. I have spare modules, but they aren't the same, so I am not sure they will work in the system. I did pull and replace the CPU, Memory and VCB02 modules, but the result is the same. The system did work fine recently, so I assume that the CSR/Vectors are ok on the cards. I don't have the manuals for everything, but maybe bitsavers does. I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me trouble if I just pull a ramcard out and have nothing in its slot? I seem to remember that you couldn't have an open slot between cards, unless you had a grant card in there... Is there a standard VMS memory test I can run in conversational mode? Kevin From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 01:46:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 02:46:06 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Oct 25, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> It seems that you are getting hard memory write faults on the stack. >> Maybe something is hanging up the Q-bus, or you have failing memory. If >> you have diagnostics, running a memory test for a while may get you >> somewhere. Otherwise, I'd look into trying to pinpoint the problem by >> removing memory modules and see if the system becomes more stable >> (assuming you have multiple memory cards, of course). > > I do have multiple memory modules, there are two in the chassis. I have spare modules, but they aren't the same, so I am not sure they will work in the system. The MicroVAX-II does not require that the memory boards be the same; you can mix-and-match and it'll work fine. > I did pull and replace the CPU, Memory and VCB02 modules, but the result is the same. The system did work fine recently, so I assume that the CSR/Vectors are ok on the cards. I don't have the manuals for everything, but maybe bitsavers does. Most (all?) of the relevant docs are on bitsavers, but I'd agree with your thought that it's likely not a configuration problem. > I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me trouble if I just pull a ramcard out and have nothing in its slot? I seem to remember that you couldn't have an open slot between cards, unless you had a grant card in there... You'll need something in that empty slot, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Fri Oct 26 02:13:55 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:13:55 -0700 Subject: C.B. Falconer 1931-2012 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508A3833.1020500@jwsss.com> On 10/25/2012 10:58 PM, SPC wrote: > Sad notice. > > SPc. > > 2012/10/26 David Griffith : >> Reposted from comp.os.cpm >> >> by Charles Richmond >> I am sorry to report that C.B. "Chuck" Falconer has passed away. He used to >> be a regular in alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.cpm, and comp.lang.c. He had >> a long and involved history with computers and programming. He was born in >> Switzerland on September 13, 1931 and passed away in Damariscotta, Maine on >> June 4, 2012. I'm sure most everyone here remembers him and his posts to >> Usenet. I went to look for postings and found an old page of downloads he posted, grabbed by archive.org. http://web.archive.org/web/20080525133110/http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/download/ Deferring to the wishes of those here, I'm bottom posting my reply, but had to laugh when I found this on a search. http://www.embeddedrelated.com/usenet/embedded/show/89880-1.php Why is it not surprising that they are calling each others Nazi's for top, middle and bottom posting. Some things never change. Jim From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 26 02:14:43 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 00:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware Message-ID: <1351235683.332.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I am thinking of networking a group of classic computers and printers computers: (only listed ones without Ethernet port) A500 A1200 Mircobee premium plus (classic mircobee software dose not support Ethernet) printers: pen plotter dot matrix (two lost in the QLD flood 2010-2011, looking for another) daisy wheel (have not got one yet) I know about the UDS10[1a] I also know about these parallel printer servers[1b], I contact d-link a few years ago about an earlier version and the support staff told me about irrelevant GDI printer issues I am looking at running a linux server within the classic system network Are there other options? [1a] [1b] --- tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do" Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks 3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC only) From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Oct 26 02:16:25 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:16:25 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <50876486.3080600@sydex.com> <50886459.4060203@philpem.me.uk> <5088742E.20907@dunnington.plus.com> <5088E98C.7020404@dunnington.plus.com> <5089CE45.3080402@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 25/10/2012 22:45, Tothwolf wrote: >> >>> Are any of those other pinouts "standard"? I've found the material in >>> several of these Wikipedia articles to be very incomplete. >> >> Well, for certain values of "standard", perhaps. We used to use them, at a couple of places I worked. There never seemed to be a consistent pinout between even our own customer sites.. One particular scheme "evolved" due to the structured cabling being shared between telephone and serial terminals - the serial stuff was put on pairs not used by the phones, so as to reduce problems caused by users plugging things into the wrong socket... Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 02:34:14 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:34:14 +0100 Subject: OT: netiquette was Re: C.B. Falconer 1931-2012 In-Reply-To: <508A3833.1020500@jwsss.com> References: <508A3833.1020500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508A3CF6.1070806@gmail.com> On 26/10/2012 08:13, jim s wrote: > > On 10/25/2012 10:58 PM, SPC wrote: >> Sad notice. >> >> SPc. >> >> 2012/10/26 David Griffith : >>> Reposted from comp.os.cpm >>> >>> by Charles Richmond >>> I am sorry to report that C.B. "Chuck" Falconer has passed away. He >>> used to >>> be a regular in alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.cpm, and >>> comp.lang.c. He had >>> a long and involved history with computers and programming. He was >>> born in >>> Switzerland on September 13, 1931 and passed away in Damariscotta, >>> Maine on >>> June 4, 2012. I'm sure most everyone here remembers him and his >>> posts to >>> Usenet. > I went to look for postings and found an old page of downloads he > posted, grabbed by archive.org. > > http://web.archive.org/web/20080525133110/http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/download/ > > > Deferring to the wishes of those here, I'm bottom posting my reply, > but had to laugh when I found this > on a search. > > http://www.embeddedrelated.com/usenet/embedded/show/89880-1.php > > Why is it not surprising that they are calling each others Nazi's for > top, middle and bottom posting. > Some things never change. > > Jim http://users.teilam.gr/~ilias70/txt/CompHeavHell.htm -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Oct 26 02:38:35 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:38:35 +0100 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351235683.332.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351235683.332.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26 October 2012 08:14, Tom Sparks wrote: > I know about the UDS10[1a] > > I also know about these parallel printer servers[1b], I contact d-link a few years ago about an earlier version and the support staff told me about irrelevant GDI printer issues > > I am looking at running a linux server within the classic system network > > Are there other options? I've use a pair of almost classiccmp in itself, 16 port iolan+ for linking my BBC Micros up. (Latterly for incoming connections to the BBS, previously I've used them with a terminal emulator ROM for outgoing telnet sessions..) They crop up on eBay from time to time for pennies, and also support the serial port tunneling mentioned on the UDS10 page, and you can use them as (serial) print servers too. There are plenty of other brands and models of terminal server that may also allow you do do this if you have a shop around. For parallel printers, I've an old JetDirect in the bedroom, which serves me well, but the market used to awash with compatibles so you should easily find something. Make sure whatever you go for is a proper print server, such as is LPD compatible, not a cheapie that requires special Windows drivers ...! From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 26 03:21:09 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 04:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me trouble $ I don't know which of you was responsible for the paragraph-length lines, but whoever it was please try to avoid it...? Compensating manually, >> I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me >> trouble if I just pull a ramcard out and have nothing in its slot? > You'll need something in that empty slot, yes. Well, in the A/B side of it, since (if it used to be a RAM card) it's a slot with memory interconnect, rather than Q-bus, on the C/D side. Not that it'll hurt anything to (try to) do grant continuity on the C/D side; in order to accommodate quad-width cards (I think that's the term; I mean cards as wide as the KA630 or most (all?) RAM), the C/D interconnect has to be tolerant of grant continuity connections. But you don't need it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Oct 26 08:19:33 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:19:33 -0500 Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM In-Reply-To: <01e201cdb172$13744ef0$3a5cecd0$@ntlworld.com> References: <50870A11.4090804@gmail.com> <01e201cdb172$13744ef0$3a5cecd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I e-mailed the eBay seller, and asked why he'd destroy such a thing. He told me the listing for the parts were parts that were already removed from a system. He also said he had a "complete" PDP 11/24 --- which he has now listed with a RX02. http://www.ebay.com/itm/281010406750 I'm not familiar with these enough to know if it's "complete", but it looks nice in any case. Garrett Meiers On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 5:59 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of mc68010 > > Sent: 23 October 2012 22:20 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM > > > > Maybe someone in New Mexico might be able to talk him into selling the > > whole thing and save it before he destroys it. > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281008663396 > > > Oh dear! Wrong side of the Atlantic again! I have an 11/24 with a bad PSU > that I am struggling to repair, if I could afford to ship the PSU I would > have it. There again the seller seems not to even want to offer shipping > abroad anyway :-( > > Regards > > Rob > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 08:46:02 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:46:02 -0500 Subject: Ruining a perfectly good 11/24 for scrap in NM In-Reply-To: References: <50870A11.4090804@gmail.com> <01e201cdb172$13744ef0$3a5cecd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: hopefully it goes to a good home then From marcogb at xs4all.nl Fri Oct 26 09:32:36 2012 From: marcogb at xs4all.nl (MG) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 16:32:36 +0200 Subject: FS: 1 Gbyte DS10/DS10L/XP900 memory kits In-Reply-To: <5089CF56.8040703@xs4all.nl> References: <5082006F.9070805@xs4all.nl> <5089CF56.8040703@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <508A9F04.3000600@xs4all.nl> In addition to the last remaining DS10 I thus have several 1 Gbyte kits available, at least two for the time being. All should be of the DATARAM brand. These cost me a lot originally (about half a year ago), as this is rather costly proprietary memory. I'm approximately looking for USD 100 per kit. - MG From francois.dion at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 09:33:19 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:33:19 -0400 Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old pre-internet Online services >> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later? Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler. Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived from that era. I didn't even think about it back then. Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 09:36:53 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 16:36:53 +0200 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: , <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: > I did pull and replace the CPU, Memory and VCB02 modules, > but the result is the same. The system did work fine recently, so I > assume that the CSR/Vectors are ok on the cards. I don't have > the manuals for everything, but maybe bitsavers does. Reading this, I wonder, could the power supply be overloaded? I do not know how much current the VCB02 modules draw ... Just a thought. I know the QDA50 is a power hog! - Henk, PA8PDP From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 26 10:27:03 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 08:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, Francois Dion wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/experience these old pre-internet Online services >>> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them until later? > > Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler. > Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell > Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on > a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in > color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French > had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived > from that era. I didn't even think about it back then. > > Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) > I did some work (as a sysop) with a BBS program that utilized NAPLPS. It was a very neat system. I can't recall the name of it at the moment however. This was maybe 1990 or '91. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 26 11:23:12 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:23:12 -0600 Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508AB8F0.4050703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/26/2012 8:33 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) Out here in Western Canada, They came and went. Most of what I remember from back then, the terminals all seemed to use a 8088 and were slow. TV Video out and split baud rate, 1200 baud in, 300 baud out. > Fran?ois > > -- > solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com > Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 26 11:28:02 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:28:02 -0600 Subject: C.B. Falconer 1931-2012 In-Reply-To: <508A3833.1020500@jwsss.com> References: <508A3833.1020500@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508ABA12.9090806@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/26/2012 1:13 AM, jim s wrote: > E > On 10/25/2012 10:58 PM, SPC wrote: D >> Sad notice. G >> E >> SPc. >> P >> 2012/10/26 David Griffith : O >>> Reposted from comp.os.cpm S >>> T >>> by Charles Richmond I >>> I am sorry to report that C.B. "Chuck" Falconer has passed away. He N >>> used to G >>> be a regular in alt.folklore.computers, comp.os.cpm, and comp.lang.c. >>> He had T >>> a long and involved history with computers and programming. He was O >>> born in >>> Switzerland on September 13, 1931 and passed away in Damariscotta, R >>> Maine on E >>> June 4, 2012. I'm sure most everyone here remembers him and his P >>> posts to L >>> Usenet. Y > I went to look for postings and found an old page of downloads he > posted, grabbed by archive.org. W > H > http://web.archive.org/web/20080525133110/http://cbfalconer.home.att.net/download/ I > T > . > Deferring to the wishes of those here, I'm bottom posting my reply, but N > had to laugh when I found this O > on a search. > N > http://www.embeddedrelated.com/usenet/embedded/show/89880-1.php A > Z > Why is it not surprising that they are calling each others Nazi's for I > top, middle and bottom posting. > Some things never change. H > E > Jim R > E > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 12:35:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:35:40 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2012 04:21 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me >>> trouble if I just pull a ramcard out and have nothing in its slot? >> You'll need something in that empty slot, yes. > > Well, in the A/B side of it, since (if it used to be a RAM card) it's a > slot with memory interconnect, rather than Q-bus, on the C/D side. > > Not that it'll hurt anything to (try to) do grant continuity on the C/D > side; in order to accommodate quad-width cards (I think that's the > term; I mean cards as wide as the KA630 or most (all?) RAM), the C/D > interconnect has to be tolerant of grant continuity connections. But > you don't need it. That's why I said "that empty slot" rather than "those empty slots". ;) Also, there's a 1MB PMI memory board for the KA630 that's dual-width! I've seen one in person, once, decades ago. I don't think DEC sold them for very long. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 26 12:55:15 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210261755.NAA13963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> You'll need something in that empty slot, yes. >> Well, in the A/B side of it [...] > That's why I said "that empty slot" rather than "those empty slots". ;) :-) > Also, there's a 1MB PMI memory board for the KA630 that's dual-width! When I was writing that, it occurred to me that such a thing could exist, though it also seemed unlikely to me that they were made. I'm interested to hear such a thing was made. > I've seen one in person, once, decades ago. I don't think DEC sold > them for very long. It occurs to me that a dual-width 16M PMI board is something that would border on trivial to make today and probably would have a small but happy market. I know I'd definitely want to hear more if I heard of such a thing. Is enough known about the PMI for that to be a reasonable thing to contemplate? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 26 13:11:51 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amusing google image search results Message-ID: I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} yields an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. For instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 13:14:00 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:14:00 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <201210261755.NAA13963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> <201210261755.NAA13963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <508AD2E8.1080901@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2012 01:55 PM, Mouse wrote: > It occurs to me that a dual-width 16M PMI board is something that would > border on trivial to make today and probably would have a small but > happy market. I know I'd definitely want to hear more if I heard of > such a thing. Is enough known about the PMI for that to be a > reasonable thing to contemplate? Well the schematics for the KA630 are out there, and the documentation seems pretty complete. I think it wouldn't be too tough, but that's a guess, as I've not looked at the PMI area in any detail. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 13:29:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:29:11 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <508AD2E8.1080901@neurotica.com> References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> <201210261755.NAA13963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AD2E8.1080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2012, at 14:14, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/2012 01:55 PM, Mouse wrote: >> It occurs to me that a dual-width 16M PMI board is something that would >> border on trivial to make today and probably would have a small but >> happy market. I know I'd definitely want to hear more if I heard of >> such a thing. Is enough known about the PMI for that to be a >> reasonable thing to contemplate? > > Well the schematics for the KA630 are out there, and the documentation > seems pretty complete. I think it wouldn't be too tough, but that's a > guess, as I've not looked at the PMI area in any detail. According to at least the KA650 manual, it uses the CD interconnect for address and the ribbon cable for the data. Presumably, the configuration would be very much like the PDP-11 PMI with the data along a sideband. I'd be interested in cooking something up at some point. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 13:43:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 14:43:40 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net> <201210260821.EAA11817@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AC9EC.5080407@neurotica.com> <201210261755.NAA13963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <508AD2E8.1080901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508AD9DC.9050903@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2012 02:29 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> It occurs to me that a dual-width 16M PMI board is something that would >>> border on trivial to make today and probably would have a small but >>> happy market. I know I'd definitely want to hear more if I heard of >>> such a thing. Is enough known about the PMI for that to be a >>> reasonable thing to contemplate? >> >> Well the schematics for the KA630 are out there, and the documentation >> seems pretty complete. I think it wouldn't be too tough, but that's a >> guess, as I've not looked at the PMI area in any detail. > > According to at least the KA650 manual, it uses the > CD interconnect for address and the ribbon cable for the > data. Presumably, the configuration would be very much > like the PDP-11 PMI with the data along a sideband. > I'd be interested in cooking something up at some point. I'd guess the KA630 would be similar. The KA630 tops out at 16MB, while the KA650 can handle 64MB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Oct 26 13:42:56 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 11:42:56 -0700 Subject: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16525BD1-EC49-47D6-9360-0E6B771C763A@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Oct 26, at 7:33 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Tom Sparks >> wrote: >>> I am wondering if there is software that can allow me run/ >>> experience these old pre-internet Online services >>> both from a user and a sysops view as I did not know about them >>> until later? > > Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler. > Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell > Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on > a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in > color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French > had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived > from that era. I didn't even think about it back then. > > Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) I remember when it was the latest thing and the terminals were appearing but I never dealt with the protocol myself. The radio museum here (Vancouver, Canada) has a color videotex terminal (with integrated CRT) made by Microtel. It's missing the keyboard but should be able to function as a videotex display device, something I'd like to work on doing sometime. It's in danger of being thrown though and needs to find a desiring home. From gm10 at consulnix.com Fri Oct 26 13:48:41 2012 From: gm10 at consulnix.com (Garrett Meiers) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:48:41 -0500 Subject: amusing google image search results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not necessarily -- if you scroll down a bit, you'll see this: "This Synergy SIA board is part of what you need to convert an original Synergy I synthesizer into a Synergy II+. A Synergy II+ is the commercial version of the Bell Labs Digital Synthesizer, and a Synergy II+ lets you program the Synergy synthesizer by an external computer (a Kaypro II) to load voices and store them on floppy disc and program timbres using CP/M software called SYNHCS (SYNergy Host Control System). The SYNHCS version 3.182 CP/M software for Kaypro II was included along with this Synergy SIA board and it has the complete Synergy voice cartridge library on Kaypro CP/M disc and the Synergy SIA board. SYNHCS v 3.182 is the lsat and most complete version of the SYNHCS software for controlling and editing the timbres on the Synergy synthesizer, and it's also insanely rare. As far as I know, no one else has SYNHCS v. 3.182 from 1985. Everyone else seems to have SYNHCS v. 3.15 from December 1983. As you can see, this board comes in two parts including MIDI ports because adding MIDI to the Synergy I synthesizer is part of the function of the Synergy SIA board." Garrett Meiers On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 1:11 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} yields an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. For instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 26 14:13:31 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amusing google image search results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > > I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} yields > an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. For > instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. It may be because a Kaypro was used as a synth controller commercially. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 14:19:32 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:19:32 +0000 Subject: amusing google image search results Message-ID: <302994550-1351279173-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1758913105-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Yeah. It was a cool idea at first but I've mostly stopped trying to use images as a relevant computer search. I'm not sure why it always seems to pull up random peoples pictures or some underdressed women instead of the computer. Unrelated but also interesting (if it works) was the search the web for a matching photo. Sorta neat sometimes with auctions or forum/craigslist posts prior to a sale. ------Original Message------ From: David Griffith Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: amusing google image search results Sent: Oct 26, 2012 1:11 PM I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} yields an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. For instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 15:28:01 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:28:01 -0700 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com> References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > It's much worse for the KD32 (MicroVAX-I). Their memory is actually > on the Qbus, so not only do 32-bit transfers require two data cycles, > but Qbus is ALREADY a multiplexed bus! SSSSllllooooowwwww. > > I love the KD32 anyway though. :) It was my first VAX, when I had > worshipped VAXen from afar for many years. And you know what? It > worked great. It was nowhere near as fast as my PDP-11/73, but the > additional functionality of VMS and a 32-bit CPU, and the GUI made life > so much nicer that I really didn't mind the performance hit. I still > have a MicroVAX-I...I should really get a working system disk for it and > get it running. > > -Dave > I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for older versions of VMS? - Josh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 15:13:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:13:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 25, 12 08:56:28 pm Message-ID: > >Are you planning on using the C64 as an enlarger timer or soemthing? IIRC > >'Control the World with HPIL' has an enlarger meter/timer based on one of > >the hP handhelds (HP41?) > > I hadn't really given that any thought, I have a very nice digital > Omega timer. It's more a case of prior to Darkroom V1.0 I'd had my My DeVere 504 has the original electronic timer which looks a lot more fanct than it is. You set the tiem with a couple of rotary swithces on top. But it's not a digital circuit, dividing down a master clock. It's just a 555 monotstable, the switches vary the number of resisotrs in-circuit. Fortunately the DeVere system is quite modular, the timer plugs into the votlage stabiiser, and one of the first things I did when I got the enlarger was to trace out schematics. So I can make a digital timer to plug into the smae socket if I want to. > > >One of Thomas Tomosy's books on camera repair has a chutter testing timer > >based on a C64 with a photosensoe conencted ot the joystick port. > > Thanks for the tip! I'll have to have a go at finding that! Looks > like I need to find a copy of "Camera Maintenance and Repair", THere are at lest 6 books. Two of them are brand-specifc -- Leica and Nikon (note the latterc covers the S series ragefinder camers, the reflex cameras and the Nikonos). The otehr 4 books are more general. Camera Maintenance and Repair VOlumes 1 and 2 have gneral repair tips, methods and how to make test instruments in the first half of the book and then some details on taking apart 'representative' models. Restoring Classic and Collectable coamers covers pre-war camers, how to mke bellows, tc. Repairing the Great Collectable Camers is post-war models and covers some very interesting designs. None of them, IMHO, are a substitue for the manufacturer's service manual -- if you cna get it. And there are plenty of thigns I would do differently. But the books are worth reading. > actually I think that's a book that's already on my wish list... I > desperately need a shutter speed tester for some of my older gear. Make one! Although there is a trap for the unwary that most comemrical testers get erogn too. The point is that no shutter opens and closes instaneously. Not even folca plane shuytters -- due to the spacing between the curtains and the flim, you get a slight penumbra round the slit image. So while you would like the light .vs. time curve to be a rectangle with vertical sides (along the 'light' axis), in fact it has sloping sides (which may, or may not, be linear). Now, what actually matters, to a very good apporxiamtion, is the integral of that curcve, the area under it. So what you should do is integrate the light coming throug hthe shutter and compute the equivanet 'open time for a perfect shutter'. What most, if not all, testers do is simply set a light threshold and measure the time for light to be above that threshold. This is fine for slow speeds, it can give wildly wrong resutls for high speeds (and can cause people to complain that the shutter is not accurate, when in fact the totla ligth transmitted is correct for the marked time). However, such a simple tester will pick up gross probles, like a sticking escapemet. Just don't expect the higher speeds on the shutter dial to agree with the timer. If in doubt, take a series of photographs of the same illuminated grey card with different speeds, adjustign the aperture to give the same exposure each time, and compare the densities of the negatives. That will pick up any major erors in one of the speeds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 15:20:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:20:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351235683.332.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 00:14:43 am Message-ID: > > I am thinking of networking a group of classic computers and printers > > computers: (only listed ones without Ethernet port) > A500 > A1200 > Mircobee premium plus (classic mircobee software dose not support Ethernet) > > printers: > pen plotter > dot matrix (two lost in the QLD flood 2010-2011, looking for another) > daisy wheel (have not got one yet) It is not clear to me what you want to do. Do you want ot share several pritners between several computers so that any machine cna print to any printer. Do you want to allow multiple printing at oen tiem (so tha, for example, the A500 and use the the plotter and the Microbee cna use a dotmatrix printer at the same time). DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the computers? In the second case, you would probably wnt to use the serial ports. Parallel pritner ports on classic machines are not often bindirecitonal. I haev a 16 port any-to-any RS232 'switch'. It's not just a 'switch', it's reeally a Z80 computer with 1M RAM (for buffering) and 16 RS232 interfaces (!). You can configure it to link any machine to any other machine. I am pretty sure parallel port versions have been made. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 15:22:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:22:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Oct 26, 12 08:16:25 am Message-ID: > One particular scheme "evolved" due to the structured cabling being > shared between telephone and serial terminals - the serial stuff was > put on pairs not used by the phones, so as to reduce problems caused > by users plugging things into the wrong socket... Avoid pins 4 and 5 for the serial port, that pair is commonly used for a single telephone line. Haiving ringing voltaeg (around 75-100V AC) appear between RS232 port pins can really ruin your day. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 26 16:37:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:37:50 -0600 Subject: NAPLPS (was: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs) In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , Francois Dion writes: > Back in 1988, while in school, I wrote an NAPLPS compiler/decompiler. > Wrote some applications (games, mostly) that would run on the Bell > Canada system (Alex). Terminals were grey scale, named Alextel, but on > a computer with modem, there was software that supported NAPLPS in > color. They (Bell) were basically wanting to replicate what the French > had been successful at, the minitel. Too bad not much was archived > from that era. I didn't even think about it back then. > > Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. The BBS dudes went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences. Only a couple people ever supported the ReGIS coding sequence besides DEC, IIRC. By the time it was feasible to make a cheap graphics terminal, it was also feasible to make a cheap PC with graphics and suitable client software that talked any protocol you wanted. Instead of encoding cool looking screens in protocols like NAPLPS, people just had client software downloading GIF images that served as the screen backgrounds. Graphics terminals are something I've been studying over the past few years. People either went with emulating someone else's popular escape codes (like Tektronix 4010/4014, still embedded in xterm today), or had their own unique escape codes that people used to support their specific terminal. Tektronix raster graphics terminals use a completely different kind of command sequence mechanism from the earlier storage tube designs. If you really wanted portability between graphics terminals from different manufacturers, you used a piece of middleware to make those terminals conform to a single interface. The middleware was generally an incarnation of one of the graphics standards originally promulgated by SIGGRAPH, such as CORE, GKS or PHIGS. There were also libraries provided by manufacturers that provided a uniform API for different products, such as Tektronix PLOT10 and PLOT50. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 16:43:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:43:22 -0400 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <236AFC23-385D-48FA-B166-6C7CAE27B9F9@gmail.com> On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> One particular scheme "evolved" due to the structured cabling being >> shared between telephone and serial terminals - the serial stuff was >> put on pairs not used by the phones, so as to reduce problems caused >> by users plugging things into the wrong socket... > > Avoid pins 4 and 5 for the serial port, that pair is commonly used for a > single telephone line. > > Haiving ringing voltaeg (around 75-100V AC) appear between RS232 port > pins can really ruin your day. A friend found out the hard way that you can't just hook up a PC sound card to the phone line, either. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 16:46:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:46:17 -0400 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508B04A9.2080304@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2012 04:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the > original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX > I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for > older versions of VMS? I, umm, may have some. =) Note that LMF was introduced with 5.0, so before that you don't have to worry about it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Oct 26 17:22:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 18:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Parallel pritner ports on classic machines are not often > bindirecitonal. Well, not on the data pins. They usually do have input pins, and if the software driving the port is sufficiently flexible they can be used for input (I've done it often enough). So, depending on exactly what you mean by "bidirectional", and the extent to which the hardware and software can be customized for your purpose.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Oct 26 17:28:22 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Living Computer Museum Message-ID: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-computer-museum-opens-public/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ --Bill From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 26 18:17:29 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:17:29 -0600 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic at web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, William Maddox writes: > It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) I've been there and met with cctalkers Ian King and Rich Alderson. I highly recommend it for all vintage computing enthusiasts now that they are open to the general public. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 26 18:39:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 16:39:00 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> On 10/26/2012 02:37 PM, Richard wrote: > Francois Dion writes: >> Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) > > I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I > never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. The BBS dudes > went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and > other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like > ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences. Only a > couple people ever supported the ReGIS coding sequence besides DEC, > IIRC. By the time it was feasible to make a cheap graphics terminal, > it was also feasible to make a cheap PC with graphics and suitable > client software that talked any protocol you wanted. I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s. I had to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and turned up two documents that I worked from. The first is titled "PRESENTATION LEVEL PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from Ma Bell. Unfortunately, that standard doesn't discuss multiple character sets, so attached to it was a section from another standard titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung (basierend auf CCITT Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation (among other things) from multibyte codes. Does that count as dabbling? I think I still have the engineering prototype PCB for the terminal wandering around... It feeds an OEM CRT monitor kit and takes a (now missing) serial keyboard. --Chuck From pontus at update.uu.se Fri Oct 26 18:54:45 2012 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 01:54:45 +0200 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508B22C5.3000600@update.uu.se> On 10/27/2012 12:28 AM, William Maddox wrote: > It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) > > http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-computer-museum-opens-public/ > > http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ > > --Bill > The video is awesome :) I really want to go now. It is lovely to see the PDP-12 running. (and the PDP-10, and the 7 and list goes on :D) /P From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Fri Oct 26 19:44:21 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1351235683.332.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 00:14:43 am Message-ID: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, 27 October 2012 7:20 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > >> >>??I am thinking of networking a group of classic computers and printers >> >>??computers: (only listed ones without Ethernet port) >>??A500 >>??A1200 >>??Mircobee premium plus (classic mircobee software dose not support Ethernet) >> >>??printers: >>??pen plotter >>??dot matrix (two lost in the QLD flood 2010-2011, looking for another) >>??daisy wheel (have not got one yet) > > It is not clear to me what you want to do. > > Do you want ot share several pritners between several computers so that > any machine cna print to any printer. Do you want to allow multiple > printing at oen tiem (so tha, for example, the A500 and use the the > plotter and the Microbee cna use a dotmatrix printer at the same time). on the classic system I am going to install generic printer drivers (HP-GL, postscript, ESC/P) the linux server is going to decide witch printer to send the file to using CUPS > > DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the computers? yes, but only between the classic system and the linux server > > -tony > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 26 19:48:41 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 17:48:41 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508B2F69.2080204@bitsavers.org> On 10/26/12 3:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) > > http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-computer-museum-opens-public/ > > http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ > > --Bill > Here is a different perspective on computing artifacts, posted today on the Computer History Museum blog. http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/preservation-conservation-restoration-whats-the-difference/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Oct 26 19:57:07 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:57:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: amusing google image search results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} yields > an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. For > instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. Not for me. I get pictures of Kaypros booting, pictures of people using Kaypros, and pictures of the insides of Kaypros. Firther down I do see some pictures of synthesizers. Google tailors its results to what it thinks you want to see, so no two people will get the exact same thing... Alexey From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 20:16:20 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 02:16:20 +0100 Subject: New PDF magazine for Sinclair ZX-81 fans Message-ID: http://zx81.republika.pl/monochrome_issue_3_magazine_zx81.pdf It is in the ZX font in block caps, which I found that I got used to remarkably quickly... MONOCHROME MADE WITH PC AND ZX-81 32KB (ZXPAND) FOR LOGO AND TESTING SOFT ZX-81 / TIMEX 1000 / TIMEX 1500 MAGAZINE ISSUE 3, ADDRESS:YERZMYEY at INTERIA.PL, 09.2012 (AUTUMN) MAKING A MAGAZINE CAN BE EASY HI GUYZ. YUPP, YOU WILL SUFFER MY ENGLISH LANGUAGE AGAIN. I MUST ADMIT I NOTICED LATELY THAT PREPARING MAGAZINE ABOUT SOME OLD-SCHOOL PLATFORM CAN BE EASY. :) IT CAN BE - AS LONG AS ENTIRE SCENE/COMMUNITY MAKES NEW STUFF FOR THE GIVEN PLATFORM - THEN PEO- PLE HAVE MATERIAL TO WRITE ABOUT. ;) AND THAT CASE WAS THIS TIME. THERE ARE MANY NEW THINGS FOR ZX81 LAST TIMES (AGAIN!) AND ALL OF THIS THANKS TO YOU ALL! AND IT IS NOT ONLY FOR DEVELOPED CON- FIGURATIONS, BUT ALSO FOR UNEXPANDED ZX81 MACHINES. AS USUAL I WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYBODY WHO SENT ARTICLES FOR THIS ISSUE OF OUR ZX81/T1000/T1500 MAG, AS WELL AS EVERYBODY WHO MAKES NEW SOFTWARE AND HARDWARE FOR THE MACHINE. ;) HMM, MAYBE I SHOULD CHANGE THE SUBTITLE, BECAUSE THOSE THREE MODELS ARE ACTUALLY NOT ENOUGH. ;) PEOPLE FROM BRAZIL ARE ACTIVE TOO AND THEY MADE A VERY INTERESTING ZONX-COMPATIBLE AY-INTERFACE FOR THEIR MICRODIGITAL TK85 CLONE OF ZX81. ;) YOU CAN READ ABOUT IT -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 20:40:34 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 01:40:34 +0000 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351290502.57010.YahooMailClassic@web181602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1894729119-1351302034-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1348363730-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Congrats to Paul et al on the opening. Saw it posted on slashdot too. Always nice to see more public awareness and help out there. -----Original Message----- From: William Maddox Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:28:22 To: Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Living Computer Museum It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-computer-museum-opens-public/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ --Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 21:04:37 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:04:37 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: > What are these models of ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 This model set just sold for $710.00 From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Oct 26 21:07:11 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:07:11 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508B41CF.3020106@pico-systems.com> > Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 13:32:09 -0600 > From: Kevin Reynolds > To: > Subject: RE: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > > I do have multiple memory modules, there are two in the chassis. I have spare modules, but they aren't the same, so I am not sure they will work in the system. > > > I did pull and replace the CPU, Memory and VCB02 modules, but the result is the same. The system did work fine recently, so I assume that the CSR/Vectors are ok on the cards. I don't have the manuals for everything, but maybe bitsavers does. > > > I don't have any spare grant continuity cards...will this cause me trouble if I just pull a ramcard out and have nothing in its slot? I seem to remember that you couldn't have an open slot between cards, unless you had a grant card in there... > > > Is there a standard VMS memory test I can run in conversational mode? > It actually runs a simple memory test during the power-up diagnostics, I think maybe it was 7...8 that is the memory diags. They are the ones that takes the longest to run, the others complete mostly in less than a second. You have to know the layout of your backplane to know where grant contnuity cards are required. Old uVax II backplanes have the memory bus on the CD rows for 2 or 4 slots, and need no grant continuity there, but the AB rows are Q-bus, and would need either double-wide Q-bus boards there or grant continuity. Later backplanes didn't have the Q-bus start until after the first couple slots. So, you really need to know what the backplane layout is. Jon From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 21:20:01 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 22:20:01 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 110, Issue 64 In-Reply-To: <508B41CF.3020106@pico-systems.com> References: <508B41CF.3020106@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <508B44D1.9090604@neurotica.com> On 10/26/2012 10:07 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > It actually runs a simple memory test during the power-up diagnostics, I > think maybe > it was 7...8 that is the memory diags. They are the ones that takes the > longest to run, > the others complete mostly in less than a second. They are 6 and 7; 6 is the addressing test and 7 is the data test. > You have to know the layout of your backplane to know where grant contnuity > cards are required. Old uVax II backplanes have the memory bus on the CD > rows for 2 or 4 slots, and need no grant continuity there, but the AB > rows are Q-bus, and would > need either double-wide Q-bus boards there or grant continuity. Later > backplanes > didn't have the Q-bus start until after the first couple slots. So, you > really need to know what > the backplane layout is. The BA23 backplane is Q/CD for slots 1, 2, and 3, the rest are Q/Q serpentine. The BA123 backplane is Q/CD for slots 1 through 4, the rest are Q/Q serpentine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 26 21:23:06 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:23:06 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:13 PM +0100 10/26/12, Tony Duell wrote: >Fortunately the DeVere system is quite modular, the timer plugs into the >votlage stabiiser, and one of the first things I did when I got the >enlarger was to trace out schematics. So I can make a digital timer to >plug into the smae socket if I want to. I've never seen a DeVere in the flesh, and I've only seen a couple photo's. You got me curious, so I looked them up, and it appears that it is a British company, which would explain why the only ones I seem to hear about over here are 8x10 enlargers. Their 504DS 17 MegaPixel digital enlarger sounds interesting. I have a Beseler 4x5 and a 23C. The 23C has the older colour head, but has a more modern one that doesn't require the filters that appears to be new in the box. I plan to see about getting it setup for doing quick 5x7 35mm prints, I just need a Negatrans holder that will fit in it. That way I can focus and forget. >THere are at lest 6 books. Two of them are brand-specifc -- Leica and >Nikon (note the latterc covers the S series ragefinder camers, the reflex >cameras and the Nikonos). The otehr 4 books are more general. Camera >Maintenance and Repair VOlumes 1 and 2 have gneral repair tips, methods >and how to make test instruments in the first half of the book and then Which volume has the C64 shutter tester? I was wondering if I needed to get the original single volume, or the newer Vol. 1 or 2, in order to get that design and source code. I tried googling for that info with little success. >some details on taking apart 'representative' models. Restoring Classic >and Collectable coamers covers pre-war camers, how to mke bellows, tc. >Repairing the Great Collectable Camers is post-war models and covers some >very interesting designs. The "Classic and Collectable sounds the most useful for me. I have a Nikon S that needs work, but plan to let a professional fix the timing on it. While it's not the original body, I have my Grandfathers three lenses (35/50/135), and his accessories. I need to find a scan of a book online I ran across recently... Ah, I was smart and saved the link to the site, and here is the book. You might find it of interest, if you have a way of viewing it. It was done in 1917, and talks about all the old shutter designs. http://cameraeccentric.com/html/info/repair_1.html Actually you might find the whole site interesting. Lots of *OLD* doc's. http://cameraeccentric.com/info.html >None of them, IMHO, are a substitue for the manufacturer's service manual >-- if you cna get it. And there are plenty of thigns I would do >differently. But the books are worth reading. Definitely, but those tend to be hard to find. > > actually I think that's a book that's already on my wish list... I >> desperately need a shutter speed tester for some of my older gear. > >Make one! Although there is a trap for the unwary that most comemrical >testers get erogn too. I plan to. BTW, you might find this design interesting. I found it last night while seeing if there was anything online for the C64. I find myself tempted by this design, I have several Apple //e's and a couple //gs's (for this the //c's don't count). I like his dual input solution, though it's targeted to 35mm cameras. http://www.willegal.net/photo/repair/besttester.htm >However, such a simple tester will pick up gross probles, like a sticking >escapemet. Just don't expect the higher speeds on the shutter dial to >agree with the timer. If in doubt, take a series of photographs of the >same illuminated grey card with different speeds, adjustign the aperture >to give the same exposure each time, and compare the densities of the >negatives. That will pick up any major erors in one of the speeds. I'm actually the most interested in slower speeds for Large Format (4x5 and 8x10) lenses. I'm pretty sure my 8x10 shutter is decidedly off. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 21:38:27 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 02:38:27 +0000 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Wow. Did anyone here figure out what system they are? Very detailed/attractive set. -----Original Message----- From: Glen Slick Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:04:37 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: > What are these models of ? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 This model set just sold for $710.00 From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Oct 26 21:46:14 2012 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:46:14 -0700 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1894729119-1351302034-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1348363730-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: On 10/26/12 6:40 PM, "barythrin at gmail.com" wrote: > Congrats to Paul et al on the opening. Saw it posted on slashdot too. Always > nice to see more public awareness and help out there. > -----Original Message----- > From: William Maddox > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:28:22 > To: > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Living Computer Museum > > It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) > > http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-computer- > museum-opens-public/ > > http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ > > --Bill Looks like it is in the old EMP green room building. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 21:49:59 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:49:59 -0500 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: wow On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 9:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: > > What are these models of ? > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 > > This model set just sold for $710.00 > From mc68010 at gmail.com Fri Oct 26 21:50:45 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (mc68010) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:50:45 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <508B4C05.5030506@gmail.com> On 10/26/2012 7:38 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> What are these models of ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 > This model set just sold for $710.00 > Did we ever decide what they were ? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 26 22:11:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:11:37 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> What are these models of ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 > > This model set just sold for $710.00 (British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance... --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri Oct 26 23:06:56 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:06:56 -0800 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> References: <20120624161636.s39592@shell.lmi.net> <4fe7dcb2.3030205@neurotica.com> <6cc91636-e304-4a4f-b4d4-86330363e025@gmail.com> <20120624133856.d30125@shell.lmi.net> <5084d142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1CC9551DCAC.00000009n0body.h0me@inbox.com> What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went for more than the real thing would likely go for..... N0body > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:11:37 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay > > On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> What are these models of ? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 >> >> This model set just sold for $710.00 > > (British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance... > > --Chuck ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE SMILEYS FOR YOUR IM & EMAIL - Learn more at http://www.inbox.com/smileys Works with AIM?, MSN? Messenger, Yahoo!? Messenger, ICQ?, Google Talk? and most webmails From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri Oct 26 23:18:06 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:18:06 -0800 Subject: amusing google image search results In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CE24EB9135.00000013n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Comrade Alexey is correct-- I get plenty of Kaypros also. Maybe somebody looking at too many nekkid wimmen. . . :^) > -----Original Message----- > From: alexeyt at freeshell.org > Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:57:07 +0000 (UTC) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: amusing google image search results > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, David Griffith wrote: > >> I noticed that doing a google image search on the string {kaypro 2/84} >> yields >> an interesting array of pictures that have nothing to do with Kaypro. >> For >> instance, there are oodles of classic synthesizer pics. > > Not for me. I get pictures of Kaypros booting, pictures of people using > Kaypros, and pictures of the insides of Kaypros. Firther down I do see > some pictures of synthesizers. Google tailors its results to what it > thinks you want to see, so no two people will get the exact same thing... > > Alexey ____________________________________________________________ TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends through IMs, post on Twitter?, Facebook?, MySpace?, LinkedIn? ? FAST! From saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Oct 26 23:39:55 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Josh writes: > >I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the >original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX >I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for >older versions of VMS? > >- Josh The license comes from the VMS Hobbyist Program. It's good for any version of VMS, from 0.whateveryoucanfind to 8.4. Even though early versions of VMS do not enforce licensing through the LMF, it's still required. Media can be borrowed. HP doesn't care where you get it, but asks that it not be posted for public download. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 23:49:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0400 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <1CC9551DCAC.00000009n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <20120624161636.s39592@shell.lmi.net> <4fe7dcb2.3030205@neurotica.com> <6cc91636-e304-4a4f-b4d4-86330363e025@gmail.com> <20120624133856.d30125@shell.lmi.net> <5084d142.4080200@gmail.com> <1CC9551DCAC.00000009n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <508B67D1.3060503@neurotica.com> On 10/27/2012 12:06 AM, N0body H0me wrote: > What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went for more than > the real thing would likely go for..... You haven't seen many *really* old or *really* rare machines hit eBay, apparently. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Oct 27 00:27:15 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 21:27:15 -0800 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508B67D1.3060503@neurotica.com> References: <20120624161636.s39592@shell.lmi.net> <4fe7dcb2.3030205@neurotica.com> <6cc91636-e304-4a4f-b4d4-86330363e025@gmail.com> <20120624133856.d30125@shell.lmi.net> <1cc9551dcac.00000009n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <5084d142.4080200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D7CDFC0D18.00000052n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Naw, I don't follow it close, I'll have to admit. I suppose I should a said that "When I was actively collecting this crap (more than a decade ago), I'd a paid that much for the REAL THING." But I don't do 'investment grade' collecting no more... N0body > -----Original Message----- > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 00:49:21 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay > > On 10/27/2012 12:06 AM, N0body H0me wrote: >> What shocks me, is that the damned *MODEL* went for more than >> the real thing would likely go for..... > > You haven't seen many *really* old or *really* rare machines hit > eBay, apparently. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA ____________________________________________________________ Receive Notifications of Incoming Messages Easily monitor multiple email accounts & access them with a click. Visit http://www.inbox.com/notifier and check it out! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Oct 27 01:59:22 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:59:22 +0200 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121027085922.1f55a82d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:56:28 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > I desperately need a shutter speed tester for some of my older gear. You can get this with a photo didode at the microphone input of a sound card. Crude but works. Every time the illumination (flashlight...) of the photo didode rapidly changes (shutter open - shutter close) you get a spike at the microphone input. Record it with some sound editing software and you can measure the time difference between the spikes. You may use an ordinary LED in lieu of the photo didode. I build a simple handheld device that does somthing similar with a ATtiny microcontroler and displayes the measured time on a LCD. BTW: I reworked the dichroitic colour head of my DeVere 504 for semiautomatic b/w splitgrade. I still need a controler for it. I thought about using a PDP-11 for this. But most likely I'll go with a ATmega... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Oct 26 09:47:26 2012 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:47:26 -0400 Subject: Colossal cave map Message-ID: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Does anyone have the data set used to generate a colossal cave map like this one? It would make a nice demo for my plotter. The site owner doesn't. http://aquaporin4.com/ From paul0926 at comcast.net Fri Oct 26 11:00:58 2012 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:00:58 -0600 Subject: Downsizing. Free hardware to a good home In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox> <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <4D584847-24EC-4FCE-A087-013E766AE894@comcast.net> Hi, I think this is on-topic? If not, I apologize. I'll send it to both groups just in case. I have a bit of downsizing I need to do. I have bunch of hardware I'm letting go. I don't have a fully accurate inventory of the software that goes with it, but here is some of hardware: - a couple of Kaypros - a couple of Osbornes - one or two IBM PCs (the portable plasma models, I forget the model number) - Xerox 820 - Baby system 36. I think it is a 5362. I might have a 5363 as well. - Various software for all of the above. - one or two IBM PC Juniors, one is new in box I might throw in my IBM 5150, which is in original boxes but is not working due to a power supply problem, as well. The only restriction is that you have to come get it. I am in the Denver area. I'll offer it up to this group first, before advertising wider. And, if you have a really big truck and want something really special, I have a bit System 36 (5360) and 5225 Printer and a bunch of monitors and twinax cables, manuals, diskettes, etc. This system worked great the last time I fired it up, about a year ago. I can test it again if you are serious about it. You'll need a truck with a lift gate to transport it. Again, I'm not shipping anything. You have to arrange for pickup or come get it yourself! Contact me off list if you are interested. Have patience for an answer as I have a busy work schedule coming up. Paul From tpresence at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 13:04:47 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:04:47 -0600 Subject: Downsizing. Free hardware to a good home In-Reply-To: <4D584847-24EC-4FCE-A087-013E766AE894@comcast.net> References: , <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B2522C719@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local>, <44C3A932EF844731BD8A97E315BC12DF@MailBox>, <1213992181-1350648921-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1388267598-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry>, , , <4D584847-24EC-4FCE-A087-013E766AE894@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul, I'm interested in the kapro and osborne stuff at the least. I'm in Pueblo, but I can drive up. Let me know how you would like to arrange it. Kevin > Subject: Downsizing. Free hardware to a good home > From: paul0926 at comcast.net > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:00:58 -0600 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hi, > > I think this is on-topic? If not, I apologize. I'll send it to both groups just in case. > > I have a bit of downsizing I need to do. I have bunch of hardware I'm letting go. I don't have a fully accurate inventory of the software that goes with it, but here is some of hardware: > > - a couple of Kaypros > - a couple of Osbornes > - one or two IBM PCs (the portable plasma models, I forget the model number) > - Xerox 820 > - Baby system 36. I think it is a 5362. I might have a 5363 as well. > - Various software for all of the above. > - one or two IBM PC Juniors, one is new in box > > > I might throw in my IBM 5150, which is in original boxes but is not working due to a power supply problem, as well. > > The only restriction is that you have to come get it. I am in the Denver area. I'll offer it up to this group first, before advertising wider. > > And, if you have a really big truck and want something really special, I have a bit System 36 (5360) and 5225 Printer and a bunch of monitors and twinax cables, manuals, diskettes, etc. This system worked great the last time I fired it up, about a year ago. I can test it again if you are serious about it. You'll need a truck with a lift gate to transport it. > > Again, I'm not shipping anything. You have to arrange for pickup or come get it yourself! > > Contact me off list if you are interested. Have patience for an answer as I have a busy work schedule coming up. > > Paul From tpresence at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 13:07:52 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 12:07:52 -0600 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: , , <201210251217.q9PCHosl030262@rickmurphy.net>, , Message-ID: > Reading this, I wonder, could the power supply be overloaded? > I do not know how much current the VCB02 modules draw ... > Just a thought. I know the QDA50 is a power hog! > > - Henk, PA8PDP My other Microvax II has the same exact build and seems to work well (they were from a clustered set)... I will play with the memory boards, ribbon cables, and check the PSU monday. Kevin From tpresence at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 16:14:35 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 15:14:35 -0600 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: References: , <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com>, , <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: > I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the > original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX > I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for > older versions of VMS? > > - Josh The oldest VMS I could find is 5.2. Original licensing is quite troublesome to deal with (trust me, I know). The hobbyist licenses should work though. Kevin From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Oct 27 03:40:04 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 09:40:04 +0100 Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 October 2012 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Avoid pins 4 and 5 for the serial port, that pair is commonly used for a > single telephone line. > > Haiving ringing voltaeg (around 75-100V AC) appear between RS232 port > pins can really ruin your day. Indeed. One of my predecessors had implemented a system at several sites where he used actual BT telephone sockets and cables to link serial terminals/PCs up, albeit mounted upside down... The catalyst for changing this all over to something less stupid was when the FD of one company was shuffling his desk about, and reconnected the identical cables running from his fax machine and brand new (486) PC (running a terminal emulator) the wrong way around... Bye bye integrated motherboard.. From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 27 04:05:27 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:05:27 +0200 Subject: DomainOS and Domain Keyboard for one HP9000/400 Message-ID: Just today installed in my computer room my HP9000/400. It's an Apollo compatible machine, as far as I can see (Domain keyboard support in back, etc). It comes with NetBSD installed (1.9.2 version, very limited), and it works, but I should like to get a copy of DomainOS (and the keyboard, I suppose) and UP-UX (...9.xx version perhaps ?). Oh, and one transceiver from AUI to RJ45 would be fine too... I gor one but for I can't locate it. If someone can offer this bunch of items I should like to talk privately about a trade. Thanks ! Sergio From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 04:42:43 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:42:43 +0100 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <508BAC93.4030903@gmail.com> On 26/10/2012 15:47, David Gesswein wrote: > Does anyone have the data set used to generate a colossal cave map like > this one? It would make a nice demo for my plotter. The site owner doesn't. > > http://aquaporin4.com/ > Thats very nice. I suspect it was hand drawn with some vector drawing tool kit and then plotted. I wrote a Hangman game in VB.2008 to demo mine. It went down well with the kids at the Vintage Computing event I attended. I plan to re-write it in IBM1130 Fortran so I can demo it using the IBM1130 emulator. (Note I admit to stealing the idea from TNMOC, they run Hangman on the an Elliot 803 and a real Calcomp. Now to have a real old style Calcomp, that would be nice) -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From f.helyanvy at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 05:02:53 2012 From: f.helyanvy at gmail.com (Ola Hughson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:02:53 +0200 Subject: DomainOS and Domain Keyboard for one HP9000/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2012/10/27 SPC : > but I should like to get a copy of DomainOS All of these should be ripped and shared in the Internet - for the good of computer fans. [I also would like to get Apollo hardware, I just have nothing worth mushc that I would want to get rid o, nor monay to buy a machine]. -- Ola Hughson From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 05:21:19 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:21:19 +0100 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <508BB59F.8000205@gmail.com> On 27/10/2012 03:38, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: > Wow. Did anyone here figure out what system they are? Very detailed/attractive set. Well if as the description says, some say "Singer" it would be a Singer. It looks like a "System 10" which later became the ICL System 10, and then 25. I can't find any pictures of the System 10 but there is one of the System-25 and more info about Singer here:- http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res47.htm but beyond that virtually nothing. Even the normally voluminous Wiki page is exceedingly spares:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singer_System_10 and there is nothing in Bitsavers.... > -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Slick > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:04:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >> What are these models of ? >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 > This model set just sold for $710.00 > That sounds very reasonable given the fact its of a machine which had at best a "niche market".... -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 05:23:11 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:23:11 +0100 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> Message-ID: <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> On 27/10/2012 04:11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/26/2012 07:04 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> What are these models of ? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 >> >> This model set just sold for $710.00 > > (British) Singer System 10 maybe? Two-tone, boxy appearance... > No they were US originally. ICL bought the brand but as far as I know all Singers were US made... > --Chuck > > -- Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From francois.dion at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 07:11:12 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:11:12 -0400 Subject: NAPLPS (was: videotex and other pre-internet OSPs) In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Richard wrote: > In article , > Francois Dion writes: >> Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) > > I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I > never heard of anyone that actually implemented it. In Montreal, BBS operators used it too. Bell implemented it with ALEX of course, but they had tried to deploy it before in early 80s. It was also the end result of all the efforts that went into Telidon ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telidon ). Thanks for the reference to Byte,I went digging, and the only Byte magazine I have that talks about NAPLPS is that of May 1983. It is Part 4 of 4 of a series on NAPLPS. Anybody has Byte feb, march or april 1983? I'd be interested in getting these articles. > The BBS dudes > went with the ANSI escape codes supported by the IBM PC and clones and > other terminal manufacturers already had their own standards like > ReGIS from DEC and Tektronix 4010/4014 graphics sequences. BBS operators figured out quickly that there were a bunch of Alextel around and started adding support for NAPLPS (through doors for example). Some had pretty advanced setups. One I knew personally had 80386 machines with transputer boards and a version of Quarterdeck (the same guys that did QEMM) Deskview specially modified for him to leverage the transputers. He had a ton of lines and a lot of alextel subscribers used his service (mostly the chat room). Then there was Prodigy who used NAPLPS. BTW, NAPLPS was more akin to SVG than GIF. It was not designed to render raster graphics (although you could hack it to do it, but painfully slow). I had written a little vector graphic program to design some of the more complex drawings (but the bulk I did by hand coding using my compiler). It paid my bills through school. Stroll down memory lane... I think I'll try to implement something using the Pocket Mini Computer as a "terminal". It'll be a faster since I can talk to it at 38400 (well, up to 115K in theory, but buffers in Propeller Basic are too small). Back then 2400 bps was the standard high speed. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 27 05:08:42 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:08:42 +0200 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508BB2AA.6030301@otter.se> On Fri, 26 Oct 2012 19:23:06 -0700, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> > actually I think that's a book that's already on my wish list... I >>> >> desperately need a shutter speed tester for some of my older gear. >> > >> >Make one! Although there is a trap for the unwary that most comemrical >> >testers get erogn too. > I plan to. Several years ago I built a simple shutter speed tester with two phototransistors on a piece of perfboard. It is meant for 35mm cameras and has the phototransistors spaced 18mm apart, 9mm from the edges of the frame, so that they are equally spaced from the centre of the frame, half the frame width apart. The transistors have 10k collector resistors and are fed from a 4.5V battery supply. The collectors go to the tip and ring of a 3.5mm stereo plug, which plugs into the line (or microphone) input of my laptop. I strap the perfboard behind the shutter of my camera with rubber bands and point the camera at a lamp. I then use Audacity to record the output of the tester when I fire the shutter. If you display the recorded waveform from a focal plane shutter, the two channels will show when the shutter curtains pass each phototransistor and you can then easily work out the shutter speed. IIRC it will also show if a curtain is slow near one end of its travel. Obviously, it also works for blade shutters, both traces will then show the same. Also obviously, the transistors are fitted behind holes in the perfboard so as not to foul the shutter curtains :) You can find several versions of this design on the net by Googling. It works quite well. You will probably find that speeds down to about 1/250 are correct, and 1/1000 will be quite badly off and cannot be made correct. /Jonas From hollobon at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 06:05:10 2012 From: hollobon at gmail.com (Pete Hollobon) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:05:10 +0100 Subject: Digital / DEC RGB cable Message-ID: Hi, I have a Digital RGB cable here if anyone wants it for the cost of postage. It's got a D-sub shaped connector on one end with three circular connectors inside marked A1, A2 and A3, and 3 RGB BNC plugs on the other end. Says BC29H-2E REV-BOI 47746 on the d-sub shaped plug. I'm in the UK. Cheers, Pete. From francois.dion at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 07:47:43 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:47:43 -0400 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/26/2012 02:37 PM, Richard wrote: >> Francois Dion writes: >>> Anybody else dabbled in NAPLPS? (ANSI X3.110) >> >> >> I remember reading about NAPLPS in BYTE at the time it came out. I >> never heard of anyone that actually implemented it.. > > I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s. I had > to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and turned up > two documents that I worked from. The first is titled "PRESENTATION LEVEL > PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from Ma Bell. Unfortunately, > that standard doesn't discuss multiple character sets, so attached to it was > a section from another standard titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung > (basierend auf CCITT Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation > (among other things) from multibyte codes. Very cool. Wish I had kept all this stuff. It would be cool if you could scan this. > Does that count as dabbling? I think I still have the engineering prototype > PCB for the terminal wandering around... It feeds an OEM CRT monitor kit > and takes a (now missing) serial keyboard. Even cooler. If you do find it, you should take pictures. Can you divulge the brand / customer? Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 08:09:48 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 09:09:48 -0400 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Computermuseum_der_Fakult=E4t_Informatik_at_the_Unive?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rsit=E4t_Stuttgart?= Message-ID: Klemens Krause and Christian Corti, the caretakers of the Computer Museum at the University of Stuttgart, opened their museum on a Sunday so I could have a short visit. Well, the short visit was so fascinating that it lasted for over six hours. I really appreciated them giving up a large part of their weekend for my visit. I primarily wanted to see their collection of DEC PDP-8 systems because of my current restoration projects. They have a very nice looking and functional Classic PDP-8 system with a Tennecomp tape drive that is very similar to an 8-track cartridge. Their LAB 8/E has lots of peripherals, including a Votrax voice synthesizer and X-Y scope display. We also got to see their IBM 1130 and the Librascope LGP-30 running. That was the first time I have seen a vacuum tube computer running. It was quickly apparent from the demonstrations that just about everything in the room was interconnected so almost all of the peripherals could be connected to a system with the flip of a switch. They have extensive demonstrations that they run to demonstrate the capabilities of both the systems and the peripherals. If you are in Germany you really need to make an effort to visit the Computermuseum der Fakult?t Informatik. Klemens and Christian are very capable and very enthusiastic about their preservation, restoration, and demonstration work. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -- Michael Thompson From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 27 08:47:33 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:47:33 +0200 Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Computermuseum_der_Fakult=E4t_Informatik_at_the_U?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?niversit=E4t_Stuttgart?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not in Germany (now... who knows in a future...). I've manifested by e-mail my interest for a visit to the Museum. This message from you made this interest more deep. We'll see. Regards Sergio 2012/10/27 Michael Thompson : > Klemens Krause and Christian Corti, the caretakers of the Computer > Museum at the University of Stuttgart, opened their museum on a Sunday > so I could have a short visit. Well, the short visit was so > fascinating that it lasted for over six hours. I really appreciated > them giving up a large part of their weekend for my visit. > > I primarily wanted to see their collection of DEC PDP-8 systems > because of my current restoration projects. They have a very nice > looking and functional Classic PDP-8 system with a Tennecomp tape > drive that is very similar to an 8-track cartridge. Their LAB 8/E has > lots of peripherals, including a Votrax voice synthesizer and X-Y > scope display. We also got to see their IBM 1130 and the Librascope > LGP-30 running. That was the first time I have seen a vacuum tube > computer running. It was quickly apparent from the demonstrations that > just about everything in the room was interconnected so almost all of > the peripherals could be connected to a system with the flip of a > switch. They have extensive demonstrations that they run to > demonstrate the capabilities of both the systems and the peripherals. > > If you are in Germany you really need to make an effort to visit the > Computermuseum der Fakult?t Informatik. Klemens and Christian are very > capable and very enthusiastic about their preservation, restoration, > and demonstration work. > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > > -- > Michael Thompson > From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 27 08:49:15 2012 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:49:15 +0200 Subject: DomainOS and Domain Keyboard for one HP9000/400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2012/10/27 Ola Hughson : > 2012/10/27 SPC : >> but I should like to get a copy of DomainOS > > All of these should be ripped and shared in the Internet - for the > good of computer fans. Sure. But I can't locate anything of this by now. So, any help or trade proposition is welcome or valuable. Regards Sergio From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Oct 27 08:53:32 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:53:32 +0100 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 27 October 2012 13:47, Francois Dion wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> I did some terminal firmware for a customer in the early (pre-PC) 80s. I had >> to refresh my memory, so I dug into my musty-smelling files and turned up >> two documents that I worked from. The first is titled "PRESENTATION LEVEL >> PROTOCOL VIDEOTEX STANDARD", dated May, 1981 from Ma Bell. Unfortunately, >> that standard doesn't discuss multiple character sets, so attached to it was >> a section from another standard titled "Teletex Zeichenvorrat und Kodierung >> (basierend auf CCITT Empfehlung S. 61)" that covers character formation >> (among other things) from multibyte codes. > > Very cool. Wish I had kept all this stuff. It would be cool if you > could scan this. Seconded - I would like to see that too. Rob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 27 09:59:08 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 08:59:08 -0600 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <508BAC93.4030903@gmail.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <508BAC93.4030903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508BF6BC.9020101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/27/2012 3:42 AM, Dave Wade wrote: ... > Thats very nice. I suspect it was hand drawn with some vector drawing > tool kit and then plotted. I wrote a Hangman game in VB.2008 to demo > mine. It went down well with the kids at the Vintage Computing event I > attended. > I plan to re-write it in IBM1130 Fortran so I can demo it using the > IBM1130 emulator. You better include the game. :) > (Note I admit to stealing the idea from TNMOC, they run Hangman on the > an Elliot 803 and a real Calcomp. Now to have a real old style Calcomp, > that would be nice) Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 11:37:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 09:37:14 -0700 Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> Message-ID: <508C0DBA.4010106@sydex.com> On 10/27/2012 05:47 AM, Francois Dion wrote: > Even cooler. If you do find it, you should take pictures. Can you > divulge the brand / customer? Fortune Systems. Their monochrome terminal. It's nothing to look at--I don't even think the production model had the same form. I do still have the source for the firmware. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 12:13:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:13:56 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> On 10/27/2012 03:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > No they were US originally. ICL bought the brand but as far as I know > all Singers were US made... I take your point. I guess it depends on your viewpoint. Toyota to me (and I suspect a large number of people) a Japanese car company, no matter where their product is actually made. Is Volvo Chinese or Swedish? I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division (part of Singer 1968-1988). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 27 12:26:54 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NAPLPS In-Reply-To: References: <1350972260.81659.YahooMailNeo@web120404.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508B1F14.4000204@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Francois Dion wrote: Francois, here's the BBS program I was referring to: http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/TURBOARD/ There is a NAPLPS terminal included. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 12:29:17 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 12:29:17 -0500 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> Message-ID: my phillips p1000 is purdyer http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/7944707284/in/photostream/lightbox/ From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Oct 27 12:55:01 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 17:55:01 +0000 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Gesswein Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 7:47 AM > Does anyone have the data set used to generate a colossal cave map like > this one? It would make a nice demo for my plotter. The site owner doesn't. > http://aquaporin4.com/ Aww, shoot. I was hoping that was going to be the *original* map drawn by Don Woods using SUDS (the Stanford University Drawing System), a CAD program created at the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory. (Remember when computer-assisted design was an AI concept?) This is clearly a map for a much later version. Oh, well. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 27 12:58:43 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 10:58:43 -0700 Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <508C20D3.9050103@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/12 10:13 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/27/2012 03:23 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division (part of Singer 1968-1988). > I have some things in the queue. The model was bought by the same deep pockets collector in the south who got the Univac I From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 13:13:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 11:13:01 -0700 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <508C242D.5050803@sydex.com> On 10/27/2012 10:55 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > This is clearly a map for a much later version. Oh, well. That's funny--back when we first got Adventure, a bunch of us sat down with the travel tables and drew a map by hand from them. I hadn't realized that it had become a regular discipline. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 13:58:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:58:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Oct 26, 12 06:22:44 pm Message-ID: > > > Parallel pritner ports on classic machines are not often > > bindirecitonal. > > Well, not on the data pins. They usually do have input pins, and if Actually, it depends. One some classics, the handshaking was essentially hadnled in hardware. Write a data value to the port, and it generates a corerectly tiped sstrope. It also maes a busy signal somehow available to the host processor whcih is cleared when the hardware gets the approrate acknowledge signal from the printer. I doubt that could easily be used as a data input. The otehr odd one is the original Apple ][ parallel card. The status line from the printer on that goes to an adress input o nthe firmware ROM (!). Basically, it runs differnt code depending on whether the printer is ready. I supect you could do data inptu with that one byu watching one of the locations in ROM which cotnains a differnt value depending o nthe state of that address input. > the software driving the port is sufficiently flexible they can be used > for input (I've done it often enough). So, depending on exactly what > you mean by "bidirectional", and the extent to which the hardware and > software can be customized for your purpose.... Sure. But a lot of classic printer prots, even if the handshake is doen in software have jsut the 7 or 8 data lines, a strobe output and a busy input. Snly one input. You could bit-back serial data over that line, I guess. I got the impression the OP didn't want to write mcuh software like that. Perhaps that's incorrect. Anyway, having a clearer idea of what the OP wants to do and what he is prepared to do (making cables, making more complex hardware, writing software, etc) would be useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 14:05:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:05:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm Message-ID: > on the classic system I am going to install generic printer drivers > (HP-GL, postscript, ESC/P) > the linux server is going to decide witch printer to send the file to > using CUPS What is CUPS? As I undertand it, then, you want ot have paralle input ports on the linux box. I can think of several ways to do this, one of which probably only really applies ot my linux machine.. That one invloves making special hardware to plug into an expansion slot in said linux box, it's only going ot be easy o na machine with ISA slots, and I suspect mine is one of the last such machines running. Getting over that, I wonder if you could use bidirectional printer ports on the linux box as simple input ports, given the right programming. I would have to check the specifications. Anotehr approach would be to use serial (RS232) ports on the linux box (or USB-serial converters if you ony have Useless Serial Botch ports). I don;t know how easy it is to configure the classics you mention to use serial printers, if so, then the hardware is easy. If not, then paralell to serial converters exist, or can easily be made > > > > > > DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the computers? > yes, but only between the classic system and the linux server So each classic machine is only outputting data, right? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 14:25:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:25:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 26, 12 07:23:06 pm Message-ID: > > At 9:13 PM +0100 10/26/12, Tony Duell wrote: > >Fortunately the DeVere system is quite modular, the timer plugs into the > >votlage stabiiser, and one of the first things I did when I got the > >enlarger was to trace out schematics. So I can make a digital timer to > >plug into the smae socket if I want to. > > I've never seen a DeVere in the flesh, and I've only seen a couple > photo's. You got me curious, so I looked them up, and it appears They are rather more ocmmon over here, as you said, it's an English company,. I think they have been taken over now, but anyway. I have an old 504. IT's built like a tank, a rigic cast frame, with adjustable gib strips on the head slide, so you can take up wear. About the only thing to go wrong with it are the bellows. Ihave the Dichromat colour head. Again, it's nice and simple. The votlage stabviliser and timer are all standard parts, I can fix them. Oh, the 504 goes up to 5*4" negatives, and down, of course to subminiature if you want to. It uses standed 'Leica Thread' lenses of course. > >THere are at lest 6 books. Two of them are brand-specifc -- Leica and > >Nikon (note the latterc covers the S series ragefinder camers, the reflex > >cameras and the Nikonos). The otehr 4 books are more general. Camera > >Maintenance and Repair VOlumes 1 and 2 have gneral repair tips, methods > >and how to make test instruments in the first half of the book and then > > Which volume has the C64 shutter tester? I was wondering if I needed It's certainly in 'Camera Maintenance and Repair Volume 1', I have just looked. I haev no idea if it's in any older single-volume version > to get the original single volume, or the newer Vol. 1 or 2, in order > to get that design and source code. I tried googling for that info > with little success. > > >some details on taking apart 'representative' models. Restoring Classic > >and Collectable coamers covers pre-war camers, how to mke bellows, tc. > >Repairing the Great Collectable Camers is post-war models and covers some > >very interesting designs. > > The "Classic and Collectable sounds the most useful for me. I have a I haev all 6 books. Thew one I find most useful is 'Repairng the Great Collectable Cameras'. Amaszingly, about the time I got it, a local camera shop started to get in for sale second-hand examples of perhaps 50% of the cameras in that book. I bought a fair number of them. The Leica and Nikon books are interesting, but I regard those cameras as being worth buing the service manuals for. > Nikon S that needs work, but plan to let a professional fix the > timing on it. While it's not the original body, I have my > Grandfathers three lenses (35/50/135), and his accessories. You might find the Nikon book interesting, just to see what is involved. > > I need to find a scan of a book online I ran across recently... Ah, > I was smart and saved the link to the site, and here is the book. > You might find it of interest, if you have a way of viewing it. It > was done in 1917, and talks about all the old shutter designs. > http://cameraeccentric.com/html/info/repair_1.html Thanks, I will take a look, even if it means a trip to an internet cafe. > > Actually you might find the whole site interesting. Lots of *OLD* doc's. > http://cameraeccentric.com/info.html > > >None of them, IMHO, are a substitue for the manufacturer's service manual > >-- if you cna get it. And there are plenty of thigns I would do > >differently. But the books are worth reading. > > Definitely, but those tend to be hard to find. There is a UK-based company Oldtimercmaeras, who sell copies of such things. THey are not cheap, but then messing up a camera is not cheap either. I can't afford them for the simpler cameras I own, ones I guess I can fix anyway, but I am sure glad I bought the manuals for my Nikon F and F2 stuff. And the manual for the MD2 motordrive is useful. Although Nikon only suppllied the ocmplete control PCB as a spare part, the manual includes the scheamtisc and component details. It's hjandy if you wnt to work out your own devices to link to the motordrive connectors too. [Shutter speed tersters] > BTW, you might find this design interesting. I found it last night > while seeing if there was anything online for the C64. I find myself > tempted by this design, I have several Apple //e's and a couple > //gs's (for this the //c's don't count). I like his dual input > solution, though it's targeted to 35mm cameras. > http://www.willegal.net/photo/repair/besttester.htm I wil ltake a look. In general I prefer a standalone instrument, rather than one that involves asettign u pa computer and monuitor, but anyway. I plan to make a more genral speed tester to check things like curtain travel time in a focal plane sutters, whether such shuttersare 'capping' (closing inside the frame area), checking sync swtich timing, and so on. > > >However, such a simple tester will pick up gross probles, like a sticking > >escapemet. Just don't expect the higher speeds on the shutter dial to > >agree with the timer. If in doubt, take a series of photographs of the > >same illuminated grey card with different speeds, adjustign the aperture > >to give the same exposure each time, and compare the densities of the > >negatives. That will pick up any major erors in one of the speeds. > > I'm actually the most interested in slower speeds for Large Format > (4x5 and 8x10) lenses. I'm pretty sure my 8x10 shutter is decidedly > off. A lot of old leaf shutters are. The one thing not to do is try to 'improve' things by filing or punchiong the edge of the speed cam. It was right one, it will not wear. Most of the time it's gummy lubricants. I take the darn thing apart and clean the bits in solvent, wiming them clean, and repeating. Then relubricate with watch oile or similar, but only in the right places. Tomosy's books givea good tip IMHO. Buy a cheap leaf-shuttered 35mm camera. Nobody wants those much now, so they are cheap unless it's a rare model. Take that suhutter apart, put it together, tinker with it. When you can handle that one easily, do the one on your large-format lens. The design will be very similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 14:37:12 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:37:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: from "Rob" at Oct 27, 12 09:40:04 am Message-ID: > Indeed. One of my predecessors had implemented a system at several > sites where he used actual BT telephone sockets and cables to link > serial terminals/PCs up, albeit mounted upside down... The catalyst IDIOT! There was actualyl a similar connector for this, although it's very hard to dffind nwo. It was normally black in colour, looked like a UP telephone plug, but had notches in the non-contact face, and didn't have the corner groove like a telepohne plug. So the telephoen plug ans this oen were not compatible either way round. They wrere designed to be used for computer interfaces, IIRC the QL used them for the serial and joystick ports (they had the latches on opposite sides so you coudln't plug a joystick into the serial port or vice versa. And that's what said idiot should have used, Not telephone connectors. I have a very simple rule for things I build. If a connector has a single, accetped, use, then that's all I use it for too, particularly if mixing them up could case problems. Mains connectors, like BS1363 13A plugs amd IEC 'kettle conenctors') are only used for mains. UK telephone plugs are only used for telephoens. There are exceptions. US telephone conenctors (6p4c, 6p6c, 8p8c are used for non-telehpoen applicatiosn quite often, so I have no problem with continuing that trend. D connectoors are used for all sorts of thigns, so I don't restrict them only to serial ports, etc. I am of course particularly careful where dangerous voltages (to me or to hardware) are involved, like mains, telephone lines, or outpus of HV power supplies. Or where the unit is going to be used by soembody else. -tony From colineby at isallthat.com Sat Oct 27 15:13:48 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 21:13:48 +0100 Subject: PERQ monitor problem (was HP 9845 power supply diagnostics) Message-ID: <4s7790xg84l75o012n0dbdjq.1351368828131@email.android.com> Tony, Sorry, didn't get to the PERQ monitor this weekend. Francis was looking at the 2645 (with me sorta offering moral support). Hopefully get back to the 2645 next week. PERQ's in the queue. --Colin ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> My recollection is it was both rolling and skewed. I need to get it in > >Right... Sounds liek capacitor trouble at a first guess.. > >> the queue for our CRT doctor to look at. He's got a never ending stream >> of Cubs to deal with supporting our BBC classroom systems. I have to > >Ah, the Microvitec Cub. I remeber those... They are one of the few >'consumer' monitors of the period to use an EHT multiplier module (a >tripler IIRC), most small colour monitors went over to the diode split >line output transformer. The tripler design is probalby easier to fix -- >the transofmer is less stressed ('only' 8kV o nthe end of the HV winding) >and tends to last better. The tripler is a potted module, but it's >possible to make an equivalnet or to find soembody who still has a >'universal tripler' on the shelf.... > >> nudge the PERQs monitor in among them, as well as an HP 2645 scan card >> that's puzzling me. I may have mentioned (?) I took the expedient >> measure of swapping the base from one monitor for the other to address >> the cable sheathing issue we had. This leave us the backup monitor on > >You mentioend the cable problem. It's is. alas, common on PERQ 1 machines. > >I guess you've not managed to track down the fault in the monitor, then. >The PRERQ 1 monitor is not too unconventional from what I remember, and >it not a bad one to learn on. You should dive in with a 'socpe.... > >> the injured list waiting for the doc. > >I wonder if it would be worth gettign the repairer to appear on this >list, that way we can cut out the middle man and reducew the chance of >errors... > >-tony > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 27 15:19:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 13:19:37 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:25 PM +0100 10/27/12, Tony Duell wrote: >It's certainly in 'Camera Maintenance and Repair Volume 1', I have just >looked. I haev no idea if it's in any older single-volume version I should have asked you what the publication date of yours is. It looks like I was confused, and Vol. 1 was done in '92 and redone '99. >I haev all 6 books. Thew one I find most useful is 'Repairng the Great >Collectable Cameras'. Amaszingly, about the time I got it, a local camera >shop started to get in for sale second-hand examples of perhaps 50% of >the cameras in that book. I bought a fair number of them. > >The Leica and Nikon books are interesting, but I regard those cameras as >being worth buing the service manuals for. I should start picking them up and start expanding my library to include repair information. I also need to start building (or buying what I can't build) the tools I'll need. > > Nikon S that needs work, but plan to let a professional fix the >> timing on it. While it's not the original body, I have my >> Grandfathers three lenses (35/50/135), and his accessories. > >You might find the Nikon book interesting, just to see what is involved. I probably will. BTW, I realized a few minutes ago it's (35/50/85) I have. > > I'm actually the most interested in slower speeds for Large Format >> (4x5 and 8x10) lenses. I'm pretty sure my 8x10 shutter is decidedly >> off. > >A lot of old leaf shutters are. The one thing not to do is try to >'improve' things by filing or punchiong the edge of the speed cam. It was >right one, it will not wear. > >Most of the time it's gummy lubricants. I take the darn thing apart and >clean the bits in solvent, wiming them clean, and repeating. Then >relubricate with watch oile or similar, but only in the right places. This has been my suspicion. >Tomosy's books givea good tip IMHO. Buy a cheap leaf-shuttered 35mm >camera. Nobody wants those much now, so they are cheap unless it's a rare >model. Take that suhutter apart, put it together, tinker with it. When >you can handle that one easily, do the one on your large-format lens. The >design will be very similar. I'd already planned on starting on camera's I don't care about. I've found I'm starting to become a dumping ground. I have a Petrie I'll likely start with. So far the extent of my repair work has been a Nikkor Series-E 50mm f/1.8 lens in the late 80's (I was on a ship, it got jammed, I had access to delicate tools, and really needed the lens fixed). I've also fixed the focus on my Franka Rolfix. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Oct 27 15:38:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:38:31 -0600 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <508C4647.5060203@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > I was hoping that was going to be the *original* map drawn by > Don Woods using SUDS (the Stanford University Drawing System), Was that the map with octagon-like symbols for the rooms? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 27 15:40:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:40:54 -0400 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508C46D6.8020706@neurotica.com> On 10/27/2012 02:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > The otehr odd one is the original Apple ][ parallel card. The status line > from the printer on that goes to an adress input o nthe firmware ROM (!). > Basically, it runs differnt code depending on whether the printer is > ready. Ok, THAT is a cool idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 27 15:59:48 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:59:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Another computer scale model set on ebay In-Reply-To: <508B4C05.5030506@gmail.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <939465739-1351305506-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749861781-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <508B4C05.5030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2012, mc68010 wrote: > On 10/26/2012 7:38 PM, barythrin at gmail.com wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:53 PM, mc68010 wrote: >>> What are these models of ? >>> >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/221143543883 >> This model set just sold for $710.00 > > Did we ever decide what they were ? After I replied on Monday that I thought it might be a Singer System 10, I found some black and white photos of an actual System 10 that looked identical to the model, so I'm pretty much 100% certain that it is indeed a System 10. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Oct 27 16:02:18 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm Message-ID: <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, 28 October 2012 6:05 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > >> on the classic system I am going to install generic printer drivers >> (HP-GL, postscript, ESC/P) >> the linux server is going to decide witch printer to send the file to >> using CUPS > > What is CUPS? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS > > As I undertand it, then, you want ot have paralle input ports on the > linux box. no, I am think of using these parallel printer servers connected to the printers the classic systems print request is send to the linux box the linux box sends the print request to the compatibly printer or save it as a pdf file >> > DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the computers? >> yes, but only between the classic system and the linux server > > So each classic machine is only outputting data, right? no, I be running web browsers, telnet terminals, etc > my ultimate goal is to run my classic system like diskless nodes[1][a] running virgin (unhacked) software [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskless_node [a] the system are going to have boot drive to get them to useable level > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 27 16:07:23 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a very simple rule for things I build. If a connector has a > single, accetped, use, then that's all I use it for too, particularly if > mixing them up could case problems. Mains connectors, like BS1363 13A > plugs amd IEC 'kettle conenctors') are only used for mains. UK telephone > plugs are only used for telephoens. There are exceptions. Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, where it plugged into the flash unit often used a connector that was virtually identical to a USA MALE mains connector! If you wanted to fire two flash units at once, you could make a cord with a female mains connector, and TWO male mains connectors!! THAT is not a safe cable to leave lying around. Yes, it's worth buying the service manual for Leica and Nikon. I didn't know that you CAN! When I was 15, I bought a broken Leica for $20. The only manual for Leica repair available in those days (1965) in the USA Library Of Congress was in Russian. It took me a while, but was a lot of fun. Camera stores used to sell broken cameras cheap. My 4x5 was in a paper bag labelled "most of a Linhof, $20"! In the 1970s, I knew a camera repairman/collector; I traded him a broken model II for a working IIIF I adjusted slow shutter speeds by photographing a spinning record (with a white mark on it) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sat Oct 27 16:20:07 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Oct 26, 12 06:22:44 pm Message-ID: <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, 28 October 2012 5:58 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > >> >> > Parallel pritner ports on classic machines are not often >> > bindirecitonal. >> > I got the impression the OP didn't want to write mcuh software like that. I just want to run virgin (unhacked) software > Perhaps that's incorrect. Anyway, having a clearer idea of what the OP > wants to do and what he is prepared to do (making cables, making more > complex hardware, writing software, etc) would be useful. I am looking at buying a group of parallel to ethernet adapters and a group of serial to ethernet adapters like the UDS10 > > -tony > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 16:24:12 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 22:24:12 +0100 Subject: Living Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <508B2F69.2080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 27 October 2012 01:49 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Living Computer Museum > > > On 10/26/12 3:28 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > It looks like the LCM is now open. Got to get up to Seattle now. :) > > > > > http://www.geekwire.com/2012/altairs-altos-ataris-paul-allens-living-c > > omputer-museum-opens-public/ > > > > http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ > > > > --Bill > > > > Here is a different perspective on computing artifacts, > posted today on the Computer History Museum blog. > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/preservation-conservation -restoration-whats-the-difference/ Al, I guess it depends on your perspective and what you think museums are there for. Surely there has to be a balance between "preserving" and "educating" and that is so hard to achieve. What can your "typical" visitor learn by looking at a preserved mainframe? No matter what you do I don't believe that you give more than an inkling of what computing was like in the 1950's, 60's or 70's unless you have running equipment. I bet that even those of whose who were part of it have forgotten many of the things we did. I remember recently being surprised when watching an historic film about early computing at Cambridge University (the UK Cambridge) to see that a program was double keyed, because data prep time was so much cheaper than computer time. Yet when I started it was routine to double key all data. Does any one double key data these days? Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 16:29:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:29:09 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> On 10/27/2012 02:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used > a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, > where it plugged into the flash unit often used a connector > that was virtually identical to a USA MALE mains connector! > If you wanted to fire two flash units at once, you could > make a cord with a female mains connector, and TWO male > mains connectors!! > THAT is not a safe cable to leave lying around. ...and large flash bulbs of the time used ordinary Edison screw bases. Not something that you'd want to put into your bedside reading lamp... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 27 16:48:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 14:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> References: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121027144822.K2578@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/27/2012 02:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used > > a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, > > where it plugged into the flash unit often used a connector > > that was virtually identical to a USA MALE mains connector! > > If you wanted to fire two flash units at once, you could > > make a cord with a female mains connector, and TWO male > > mains connectors!! > > THAT is not a safe cable to leave lying around. > > ...and large flash bulbs of the time used ordinary Edison screw bases. > Not something that you'd want to put into your bedside reading lamp... They don't burn very long. BTDT. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Oct 27 17:33:00 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 15:33:00 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> References: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 2:29 PM -0700 10/27/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/27/2012 02:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used >>a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, >>where it plugged into the flash unit often used a connector >>that was virtually identical to a USA MALE mains connector! >>If you wanted to fire two flash units at once, you could >>make a cord with a female mains connector, and TWO male >>mains connectors!! >>THAT is not a safe cable to leave lying around. > >...and large flash bulbs of the time used ordinary Edison screw >bases. Not something that you'd want to put into your bedside >reading lamp... > >--Chuck I have one of the cables with the two male connectors, it came with my Graflex Super Graphic. I've been meaning to buy some bulbs, as I'd like to try out the Graflex 'lightsaber' flash! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From legalize at xmission.com Sat Oct 27 17:38:45 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:38:45 -0600 Subject: ftp.compaq.com document? Message-ID: Where does this live now? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 27 18:22:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:22:10 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> Message-ID: <508C6CA2.9020802@sydex.com> On 10/27/2012 03:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have one of the cables with the two male connectors, it came with my > Graflex Super Graphic. I've been meaning to buy some bulbs, as I'd like > to try out the Graflex 'lightsaber' flash! :-) Be aware that the little red ejector button is there for a reason--those buggers are very hot after they've been used. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 27 18:34:08 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 18:34:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Oct 26, 12 06:22:44 pm <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > From: Tony Duell > >> Perhaps that's incorrect. Anyway, having a clearer idea of what the OP >> wants to do and what he is prepared to do (making cables, making more >> complex hardware, writing software, etc) would be useful. > > I am looking at buying a group of parallel to ethernet adapters and a > group of serial to ethernet adapters like the UDS10 How many of the machines have parallel printer ports? Will you be using the serial ports on those machines for outbound or inbound connections? I can make some very specific recommendations based on what I've set up in the past, but I'd need to know more about the specific equipment and how you want to use it. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 27 19:08:13 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 19:08:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > no, I am think of using these parallel printer servers connected to the printers > the classic systems print request is send to the linux box > the linux box sends the print request to the compatibly printer or save it as a pdf file Ok, having re-read the entire thread, I have a better idea of what you are after. For printing, I used a multi-port parallel autoswitch with its inputs connected to the different computers I wanted to print from. It's output was connected to a parallel to serial adapter that I had connected to a Linux machine which ran lpd. The Linux machine could queue anything I wanted to print and send it out to the printers I had on my network. This worked pretty well, but it took awhile to get all the settings correct. The only downside was that I had to manually change which printer I wanted to print to via the Linux system. In thinking about it now, I guess I could have used a manual switchbox connected between the parallel to serial adapter and multiple serial ports on the Linux system to select different printers, but I didn't think of that at the time. As for serial connections, if you just wanted to use the machines as terminals, a basic terminal server would do the job, but since you also want to be able to transfer files, you'd need something more flexible. I'd probably recommend using a multi-port serial adapter (Boca, Stallion, Cyclades, Digi, etc) with the Linux machine. Standalone serial device servers such as the Lantronix UDS10 probably aren't going to do what you want (or at least not easily) if you want to transfer files and data between the classic system and the Linux computer. For inbound telnet connections /to/ a system, devices such as the UDS10 can work pretty well though. From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Oct 27 19:34:27 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 00:34:27 +0000 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <508C4647.5060203@brouhaha.com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <508C4647.5060203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C38C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 1:39 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> I was hoping that was going to be the *original* map drawn by >> Don Woods using SUDS (the Stanford University Drawing System), > Was that the map with octagon-like symbols for the rooms? That's the one. Octagons (N,NE,E,SE,S,SW,W,NW) with arrows on the north and south edges to indicate up and down. I first obtained a 5th-or-worse generation xerographic copy (highly reduced, multiple pages) of it in 1977, when ADVENT infected the UChicago DEC-20. I later saw a D- or E-sized single sheet rendering hanging in Ralph Gorin's office in CERAS at LOTS (later outside his office in Tresidder). Ah, well. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sat Oct 27 20:15:36 2012 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 18:15:36 -0700 Subject: Wanted: DEC Rxxx module photos Message-ID: Hi, Today I have finished documenting the Rxxx "flipchip" modules in my possession. These are the modules from which most straight-8 and PDP-8/S gear was constructed: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/flipchip/flipchip.php http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/flipchip/Rxxx.htm The Rxxx modules are a smallish subset of the larger DEC modules space: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/flipchip/modules.htm Unfortunately, there are several Rxxx modules for which I have neither example or picture: Module Versions Description R211 K* L* MB, PC, MA, (PDP8) R212 A* J* MQ (PDP8), 2 FFs, SR, SL, Read-in, Clear R220 F* L* 3-Bit SR, Parallel Read-in, Diodes out for detecting all 0s in R111 node R284 A* Quadraflop, PDP8, 4 stable states R450 D* E* Clock for use with TTY, first pulse comes 1/2 period late R451 E* Teletype Clock, for faster teletype think R450 R601 B* F* H* Pulse Amplifier, 6 DCD Gates, 100 or 400 ns pulses R613 B* R603 that cannot be triggered from output, with 5 mA loads R650 E* Bus Driver, 2 circuits, 2 Inputs & Node (* just means I don't have a board drawing for it yet) There are also some more exotic modules for which I lack even a schematic: R012, R1110, R1130, R152, R200, R406, R407, R408, R623 and I don't expect to be able to locate or do much about those. Anyway, what I'm looking for is some help with the former list. If anyone has examples of these, would it be possible to photograph the component and solder sides with decent resolution and forward the photos to me? (You are welcome to forward the whole module, but I don't expect that :-).) The version information just refers to versions that I have schematics for. Any version you have is fine. I am particularly interested in the R2xx, as those are key modules for the straight-8. Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide. (Meanwhile, I'll start drawing Sxxx modules.) Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sat Oct 27 22:12:59 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? Message-ID: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> mine is longer then any Ive seen on various sites. Probably older. Need docs and s/w, though what Ive downloaded may be appropriate. Anyone ever use their (discrete logic) version with 8 inch drives? From jam at magic.com Sat Oct 27 22:12:39 2012 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 20:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: DEC Rxxx module photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201210280312.UAA26557@mist.magic.com> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 18:15:36 -0700 Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > R601 B* F* H* Pulse Amplifier, 6 DCD Gates, 100 or 400 ns pulses > R613 B* R603 that cannot be triggered from output, with 5 mA loads > R650 E* Bus Driver, 2 circuits, 2 Inputs & Node I'll try to take pictures of these three tomorrow and send them to you off-list. James Markevitch From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Oct 27 22:18:09 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 22:18:09 -0500 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ?? On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 10:12 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > mine is longer then any Ive seen on various sites. Probably older. Need > docs and s/w, though what Ive downloaded may be appropriate. Anyone ever > use their (discrete logic) version with 8 inch drives? > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 00:28:03 2012 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 22:28:03 -0700 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <508B04A9.2080304@neurotica.com> References: <5089E3DB.10600@pico-systems.com> <5089EF2F.5070500@neurotica.com> <508A007E.1050909@neurotica.com> <508B04A9.2080304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508CC263.8040309@gmail.com> On 10/26/2012 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/26/2012 04:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the >> original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX >> I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for >> older versions of VMS? > I, umm, may have some. =) I, er, would love to know more about this :). Thanks, Josh > > Note that LMF was introduced with 5.0, so before that you don't have > to worry about it. > > -Dave > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 28 01:41:19 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2012 23:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tothwolf > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, 28 October 2012 11:08 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > > On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > >>??no, I am think of using these parallel printer servers connected to the > printers >>??the classic systems print request is send to the linux box >>??the linux box sends the print request to the compatibly printer or save it > as a pdf file > > Ok, having re-read the entire thread, I have a better idea of what you are > after. > > For printing, I used a multi-port parallel autoswitch with its inputs connected > to the different computers I wanted to print from. I hoping to use ethernet hardware, so I can use power over ethernet, ATA over ethernet, KVM over ip, Audio over ethernet etc > > As for serial connections, if you just wanted to use the machines as terminals, > a basic terminal server would do the job, so a shell account is doable :) > but since you also want to be able to > transfer files, you'd need something more flexible. what about Zmodem for basic file transfer? > > Standalone serial device servers such as the Lantronix UDS10 probably aren't > going to do what you want (or at least not easily) if you want to transfer files > and data between the classic system and the Linux computer. For inbound telnet > connections /to/ a system, devices such as the UDS10 can work pretty well > though. when I am in serial mode I can only talk to CUPS/lpd when I am in modem mode I can "dail-into" a shell account, BBS , PPP etc i've contacted lantronix, to see if the could add auto-switch mode to the firmware tom > ? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 28 02:47:09 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:47:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > From: Tothwolf > >> Ok, having re-read the entire thread, I have a better idea of what you >> are after. >> >> For printing, I used a multi-port parallel autoswitch with its inputs >> connected to the different computers I wanted to print from. > > > > I hoping to use ethernet hardware, so I can use power over ethernet, ATA > over ethernet, KVM over ip, Audio over ethernet etc IMO, you are getting way ahead of yourself. AFAIK, the Lantronix UDS10 doesn't support PoE anyway. In fact, I don't think /any/ of their older (read: halfway affordable) devices support PoE. As far as KVM over IP goes, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax... >> As for serial connections, if you just wanted to use the machines as >> terminals, a basic terminal server would do the job, > > so a shell account is doable :) > >> but since you also want to be able to transfer files, you'd need >> something more flexible. > > what about Zmodem for basic file transfer? Software for many classic machines may not have support for Zmodem since it was one of the later protocols. Some may support protocols such as Xmodem or Kermit, but may or may not support proper CRC checking. On the Linux machine, lrzsz and ckermit will support these. >> Standalone serial device servers such as the Lantronix UDS10 probably >> aren't going to do what you want (or at least not easily) if you want >> to transfer files and data between the classic system and the Linux >> computer. For inbound telnet connections /to/ a system, devices such as >> the UDS10 can work pretty well though. > > when I am in serial mode I can only talk to CUPS/lpd > when I am in modem mode I can "dail-into" a shell account, BBS , PPP etc > > i've contacted lantronix, to see if the could add auto-switch mode to > the firmware Good luck. Unless you have a support contract, Lantronix is highly unlikely to add a feature to unsupported / "legacy" devices. They are trying to target wireless stuff these days. Keep in mind that Lantronix also only provides Windows drivers for port redirection with their serial devices. Again, for inbound connections, something like the UDS10 can work well, but for outbound, you'll probably be rather disappointed. Based on my own experience I'd recommend using parallel where you can for sending print jobs out to the Linux machine and save serial for outgoing connections from and data transfers to/from the classic hardware. If you need to remotely locate your printers, have the Linux machine talk to print server devices near your printers. If the Linux machine is close to the printers and you don't have very many printers, skip the ethernet print servers entirely and save yourself the trouble and headaches they absolutely /will/ cause. From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Sun Oct 28 05:29:51 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 03:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1351420191.16433.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tothwolf > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, 28 October 2012 6:47 PM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > > On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: >>??From: Tothwolf >> >>>??Ok, having re-read the entire thread, I have a better idea of what you > are after. >>> >>>??For printing, I used a multi-port parallel autoswitch with its inputs > connected to the different computers I wanted to print from. >> >>?? >> >>??I hoping to use ethernet hardware, so I can use power over ethernet, ATA > over ethernet, KVM over ip, Audio over ethernet etc > > IMO, you are getting way ahead of yourself. file sharing and printer sharing is on the top of the list, the others are at the bottom of the list > AFAIK, the Lantronix UDS10 > doesn't support PoE anyway. the newer version dose (UDS1100) > In fact, I don't think /any/ of their older > (read: halfway affordable) devices support PoE. i'm looking at using PoE to eliminate as many wall warts? as possible > As far as KVM over IP goes, > that's a whole 'nother ball of wax... i'll leave kvming (is that a word?) to a later date >> >>??what about Zmodem for basic file transfer? > > Software for many classic machines may not have support for Zmodem since it was > one of the later protocols. Some may support protocols such as Xmodem or Kermit, > but may or may not support proper CRC checking. On the Linux machine, lrzsz and > ckermit will support these.I knew there were older transfer protocols >>??i've contacted lantronix, to see if the could add auto-switch mode to > the firmware > > Good luck. Unless you have a support contract, Lantronix is highly unlikely to > add a feature to unsupported / "legacy" devices. I was asking about the UDS1100 > Keep in mind that Lantronix also only provides > Windows drivers for port redirection with their serial devices. like normal, windows runs the world :) I did find some linux com port redirectors > > Based on my own experience I'd recommend using parallel where you can for > sending print jobs out to the Linux machine and save serial for outgoing > connections from and data transfers to/from the classic hardware. thats what i was think >If you need to > remotely locate your printers, have the Linux machine talk to print server > devices near your printers. If the Linux machine is close to the printers and > you don't have very many printers, skip the ethernet print servers entirely > and save yourself the trouble and headaches they absolutely /will/ cause. I am looking at a 1:1 ratio with the printer servers (1 printer to 1 printer server) > From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Oct 28 08:15:37 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:15:37 +0100 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? In-Reply-To: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> Scott Quinn wrote: > > Josh writes: > > > > > >I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have the > >original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the MicroVAX > >I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) for > >older versions of VMS? > > > >- Josh > > > > The license comes from the VMS Hobbyist Program. It's good for any version of VMS, from 0.whateveryoucanfind to 8.4. > Even though early versions of VMS do not enforce licensing through the LMF, it's still required. > > Media can be borrowed. HP doesn't care where you get it, but asks that it not be posted for public download. Hmmm... I do habe an hobbyist license for my 4000/90, got an VMS Isntall CD (don't know the version currently) borrowed from a friend. So what is the correct way to get an install media for wathever Version? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 10:12:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 13:12:08 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> Dear friends, Yesterday I got a SDK-86 as a gift from a friend. It was well used, and stored in a damp and dirty place. I disassembled mostly of it, washed the board, disassembled the keys, washed the keycaps, and it is looking like new :o) I'm building a page about that, but I'd like to ask some questions... - What documentation came with it? And what is avaiable? I have the 9800697/698/699 manuals avaiable on bitsavers, but is there something else? - Can I link the documents on bitsavers on my page? I don't have that much space on my server and, although I like to keep a duplicate copy of the documents online, I just can't at this moment. - In the kit, what kind of sockets came with it? I see most sockets are Texas Instruments, but some are made by another company (and I know how unreliably they are). Should I change all the TI sockets to turned pin ones, or can I keep than and change only the gray ones I know that will cause me problems? Photos (and the page as soon as I finish rebuilding it) at http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/ Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Oct 28 14:52:09 2012 From: saquinn624 at aol.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Hobbyist OpenVMS availability (WAS: Re: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CF835CD93E54C6-15B4-4A94A@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> Holm writes: >Scott Quinn wrote: > > >> The license comes from the VMS Hobbyist Program. It's good for any version of >VMS, from 0.whateveryoucanfind to 8.4. >> Even though early versions of VMS do not enforce licensing through the LMF, >it's still required. >> >> Media can be borrowed. HP doesn't care where you get it, but asks that it not >be posted for public download. > >Hmmm... > >I do habe an hobbyist license for my 4000/90, got an VMS Isntall CD (don't >know the version currently) borrowed from a friend. >So what is the correct way to get an install media for wathever Version? > >Regards, > >Holm > >-- If you're looking for VAX version 7.3 (last VAX version), the HP guy you received your license e-mail from can set you up with an official HP download link for VMS+layered products (not a full ConDist, but a selection). For any earlier version ask around (also give location). HP has said in the past that they have no problems with hobbyists borrowing media, but they continually reiterate that they would not like to have it posted for public download. There are probably people on here who have it (I have 5.5-something, 7.2 and 7.3) , or you can ask on the OpenVMS Hobbyist fora. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 15:10:27 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 13:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > mine is longer then any Ive seen on various sites. Probably older. Need > docs and s/w, though what Ive downloaded may be appropriate. Anyone ever > use their (discrete logic) version with 8 inch drives? I can tell you the contents of the docs that came with it! 1) connect in inline in the cable between the disk controller and the drive. It originally came with with a short cable with a 34 pin card edge and 34 pin dual-inline connector. You could reverse that cable to connect to your FDC and either connector of the board. Then your existing drive cable connects to the other connector. "Do all connections and anstallation with the computer turned off!" Run the supplied software. Although much more verbose, that was all that the documentation said. It didn't even give the meaning of the jumper or switch that some models had, labelled "Compaq/Other" At one time, they permitted me access to a "secret" page of instructions on how to program it. Several parts of that page did not match what was done in their supplied software (disassembly). I have since seen that page show up in a few places on the web. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 28 14:50:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:50:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 27, 12 01:19:37 pm Message-ID: > > At 8:25 PM +0100 10/27/12, Tony Duell wrote: > >It's certainly in 'Camera Maintenance and Repair Volume 1', I have just > >looked. I haev no idea if it's in any older single-volume version > > I should have asked you what the publication date of yours is. It > looks like I was confused, and Vol. 1 was done in '92 and redone '99. Mine says 'Copyright 1999' in it. > > >I haev all 6 books. Thew one I find most useful is 'Repairng the Great > >Collectable Cameras'. Amaszingly, about the time I got it, a local camera > >shop started to get in for sale second-hand examples of perhaps 50% of > >the cameras in that book. I bought a fair number of them. > > > >The Leica and Nikon books are interesting, but I regard those cameras as > >being worth buing the service manuals for. > > I should start picking them up and start expanding my library to > include repair information. I also need to start building (or buying As I siad, I can;'t afford the manufacturer manuals for all the cameras I own or are interested in. So I have bought them for cameras I really care about, and will foolw my insticts on the rest. > what I can't build) the tools I'll need. The 2 volumes of 'Cmaera Maintenance and Repair' have some designs for homebrew test isntrumewrns -- autocolimator, various exposure testers, etc. They can be infuriating for me, becuase I keep thinking 'I could do a better version of that' and never get round to it. Nor do I build the simple one form the book, which to be fair is probably good enough. Oh well... > > I'd already planned on starting on camera's I don't care about. I've > found I'm starting to become a dumping ground. I have a Petrie I'll I know the feeling... One other thing that Tomosey says and which I entirely agree with is that uou must always do the best work you can, even on 'junk'. Do not get into the habit of saying 'Oh, this is worthless, I don't nbeed ot do the job properly'. You must not learn bad habits! > likely start with. So far the extent of my repair work has been a > Nikkor Series-E 50mm f/1.8 lens in the late 80's (I was on a ship, it I have never realyl botheresd with the Series-E lenses. Partly because I tend to avoid stuff build down to a price and partly becasue the lack the coupling form for non-AI meters. Yes, I know it can often be added, bnt.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 28 14:56:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 27, 12 02:02:18 pm Message-ID: > > What is CUPS? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS Can;'t you just tell me what it is? > > > > As I undertand it, then, you want ot have paralle input ports on the > > linux box. > no, I am think of using these parallel printer servers connected to the printers > the classic systems print request is send to the linux box > the linux box sends the print request to the compatibly printer or save it as a pdf file I do not understnad what you are trying to do. What do you mean by a 'print request'? Can you explain jsut what is connected to what, using what interfaces. > > > >> > DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the computers? > >> yes, but only between the classic system and the linux server > > > > So each classic machine is only outputting data, right? > no, I be running web browsers, telnet terminals, etc You start out by saying you want to only transfer data from the classic to the linux box, which to me implies output only on the classic, input only on the linux bos. Then you want to run web browsers, termianl emulators ,etc. That implies bidirectional data transfer. Now what _exactly_ are you tryign to do? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 28 15:04:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:04:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121027134945.J2578@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 27, 12 02:07:23 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have a very simple rule for things I build. If a connector has a > > single, accetped, use, then that's all I use it for too, particularly if > > mixing them up could case problems. Mains connectors, like BS1363 13A > > plugs amd IEC 'kettle conenctors') are only used for mains. UK telephone > > plugs are only used for telephoens. There are exceptions. > > Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used > a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? > > Yes, it's worth buying the service manual for Leica and Nikon. > I didn't know that you CAN! When I was 15, I bought a broken You can certainly get some of them... I am not sure it's necessary for screwmount Leicas. They are preceison made, but actually quite simple. I had no problems repairing one 'by eye'. Minox yes!. And don't even start to strip a minox unless you relaise that the shutter _MUST_ be released somehow before sliding the boddy odd, or you'll wreck at least the springs nad possibly the shutter blades as well. > Leica for $20. The only manual for Leica repair available in > those days (1965) in the USA Library Of Congress was in Russian. Was that actually a Fed. or Zorki service manual? The early FEDs and Zorkis were prtty much Leica copies. I have an excellent book with IMHO an incorrect title : 'All you need to know abotu the design and repair of Russian cameras'. Incorrect becaue it doens;'t contain any information on MF SLRS or on the Narciss sub-minatore SLR. But for the models it does cover, it;s exceleletn. One thing it covers is the Kiev, which a copy of the pre-war Contax. And it's got the best descriptio nfo that odd shutter that I have ever read. > It took me a while, but was a lot of fun. > Camera stores used to sell broken cameras cheap. My 4x5 was YEs. I got a lot of interesting models that way. A copupe lf lcal shops knoew I wanted such things and used ot offer them to me at low prices. > in a paper bag labelled "most of a Linhof, $20"! I like it ! As I mentioend before I bought a totally jammed Lieca 3 for aobut 1/6th of the going price. I took it apart, put one drop of watch oil on the second curtain latch shaft, and it was as good as new. > In the 1970s, I knew a camera repairman/collector; I traded > him a broken model II for a working IIIF > > I adjusted slow shutter speeds by photographing a spinning record > (with a white mark on it) At one time a lot of commerical shutter testers worked in that sort of way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 28 15:07:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:07:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508C5225.4000505@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 27, 12 02:29:09 pm Message-ID: > ...and large flash bulbs of the time used ordinary Edison screw bases. > Not something that you'd want to put into your bedside reading lamp... ALthought I beleive some of types were designed to be fired by mains-voltage AC. A book I have just picked up lists a 'Syncho-Press No 21' which is described as 'operates on voltages ranging from 3 to 125, direct or alternating current' -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 16:10:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121028134949.R33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > You start out by saying you want to only transfer data from the classic > to the linux box, which to me implies output only on the classic, input > only on the linux bos. Then you want to run web browsers, termianl > emulators ,etc. That implies bidirectional data transfer. Now what > _exactly_ are you tryign to do? 20+ years ago, for XenoComm Parallel, I used "bidirectional" printer ports and/or modified cheap printer cards to make the data lines bidirctional (surprisingly easy to to), and made up adapters from DB25 to FEMALE Blue-ribbon. My [trivial] software let a PC emulate a printer. The alien computer needed no additional software (not always feasible ANYWAY), and thought that it was connected to a centronics printer. Thus, TRS80, Apple ][, custom data logging hardware with printer port, etc. could all "PRINT". Instead of dead-trees, the result ended up as a file on the PC. I wanted to eliminate the user-interface and run my software as a background device driver so that the user could ask DOS to "COPY PRN: filename". But I had some struggles with the frequency that ^Z occured in PCL and similar printer codes, and DOS's REFUSAL to let you COPY from a "binary" device. So, I ran a stand-alone program. One session of Comdex was enough to make me realize the difficulty of marketing a product that the average user doesn't understand. "But ALL of my computers run DOS. Why would I want to transfer from anything else? Would this be FASTER than my network?" "Why would I want to communicate and transfer files without any additional software on the other machine? XYZ serial program will INSTALL ITSELF AUTOMATICALLY onto whatever you connect to!" (HOW does it "install itself automatically" into a machine with different processor and architecture??!?) Futile, long gone, product. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 16:26:07 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 14:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121028141643.W33501@shell.lmi.net> [full size flash bulbs] > > Not something that you'd want to put into your bedside reading lamp... On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > ALthought I beleive some of types were designed to be fired by > mains-voltage AC. A book I have just picked up lists a 'Syncho-Press No > 21' which is described as 'operates on voltages ranging from 3 to 125, > direct or alternating current' But, they don't light for very long! (although admittedly a lot longer than flash cubes, and "miniature" flash bulbs (some of which, including 5, 25, 6, 26, and "FP" would fit in an automotive tail-light or "tensor light" socket)) How much Knuth can you read in that amount of time? When I was working on cars, an extremely mischievous cow- orker put one of my large bulbs in my drop-light. But, we called a truce before I got around to retaliation by using flash powder. (which is now hard to find!) From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 17:06:09 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? Message-ID: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> therefore whats needed is a piece of ribbon cable or mort modern 3.5 only floppy cable, iow dual inline connectors at opposite ends, and a card edge in between? ------------------------------ On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 1:10 PM PDT Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> mine is longer then any Ive seen on various sites. Probably older. Need >> docs and s/w, though what Ive downloaded may be appropriate. Anyone ever >> use their (discrete logic) version with 8 inch drives? > >I can tell you the contents of the docs that came with it! >1) connect in inline in the cable between the disk controller and the >drive. It originally came with with a short cable with a 34 pin card edge >and 34 pin dual-inline connector. You could reverse that cable to connect >to your FDC and either connector of the board. Then your existing drive >cable connects to the other connector. >"Do all connections and anstallation with the computer turned off!" >Run the supplied software. > >Although much more verbose, that was all that the documentation said. > >It didn't even give the meaning of the jumper or switch that some models >had, labelled "Compaq/Other" > > >At one time, they permitted me access to a "secret" page of instructions >on how to program it. Several parts of that page did not match what was >done in their supplied software (disassembly). I have since seen that >page show up in a few places on the web. > > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 28 17:17:11 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:17:11 -0700 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com> On 10/28/2012 1:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > At one time, they permitted me access to a "secret" page of instructions > on how to program it. Several parts of that page did not match what was > done in their supplied software (disassembly). I have since seen that > page show up in a few places on the web. I didn't see this page at the time but would have liked to. If I recall didn't this board try to copy with a binary image approach? I had a lot of protected media that played with the recording and if you tried that the bit times got set all back to the same rate, and the copies failed, even if copied by this board. There was another program w/o hardware assist that would frequently beat that method called copywrite (or such). I think the approach there was to be sure that the total bits around each track was the same as the original, which the copy2pc board didn't pay explicit attention to. I think the assumption was if one did a binary copy of some sort that the target would end up the same. the place the copywrite board got screwed on was with a media (who made it I forget) with a laser defect on a specific track. If the bits defect time didn't match from the index hole to the defect, I know of one software package that would fail. What it did was measure the bit time up to the hole. Once it knew this they had allocated space after the hole and attempted to write a sector from that bit position to the end of the track. if that failed as it would with the special damaged media at the correct spot, then they knew they had the correct failed media, which was therefore genuine. Unfortunately for the vendor if you copied the media, and used a write protect on the media, you got the same result as their special media. Quite a sport trying to create and defeat these schemes back then. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 17:41:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > therefore whats needed is a piece of ribbon cable or mort modern 3.5 > only floppy cable, iow dual inline connectors at opposite ends, and a > card edge in between? Maybe. The original design called for two cables, to "input" through one "port" and "output" through the other. Although they were interchangeable, they may or may not have actually been in parallel. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Oct 28 17:47:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 15:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 kits now with parts Message-ID: I did some number crunching and decided that I can indeed produce P112 kits with all the parts you'll need. See http://661.org/p112 or http://p112.feedle.net -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tothwolf at concentric.net Sun Oct 28 18:11:11 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:11:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351420191.16433.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351420191.16433.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: > From: Tothwolf >> On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: >> >>>?I hoping to use ethernet hardware, so I can use power over ethernet, >>> ATA over ethernet, KVM over ip, Audio over ethernet etc >> >> IMO, you are getting way ahead of yourself. > > file sharing and printer sharing is on the top of the list, the others > are at the bottom of the list With most classic hardware, you are probably going to have to handle printing and transferring files separately, at least to keep things simple and halfway manageable (and affordable on a hobbyist's budget). >> AFAIK, the Lantronix UDS10 doesn't support PoE anyway. > > the newer version dose (UDS1100) The UDS1100 isn't really the same animal as the UDS10. You'll also find the newer models tend to go for a whole lot more on the surplus market because people in the controls and automation industry currently use them and they need to be able to obtain support from the manufacturer. >> In fact, I don't think /any/ of their older (read: halfway affordable) >> devices support PoE. > > i'm looking at using PoE to eliminate as many wall warts as possible There are some serious drawbacks to PoE that a lot of people don't realize until they've deployed it at least once or twice. In general, PoE switches are much more expensive (even used/surplus). They have to be physically larger for the extra real estate required for the extra electronics and power supply circuitry. With all the extra electronics, those switches run a lot hotter and they tend to have lots of small, noisy (high rpm) cooling fans. You will also likely find that a PoE switch will actually use /more/ electricity than a small number of switch mode power supplies because those PoE capable switches are generally designed to supply up to about 12-15 watts per port on 12 ports (and generally about 6-7 watts per port if you are using 24 ports). For a small number of centrally located devices, PoE has some serious disadvantages over a small number of switch-mode wall-wart type power supplies. On the other hand, if you have a lot of devices such as WiFi access points, VoIP network connected phones, or network connected security cameras that are spread out over a large area where there may not always be an easy way to power them directly, PoE can have some real advantages. For this particular application though, PoE isn't something I would personally recommend. >> As far as KVM over IP goes, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax... > > i'll leave kvming (is that a word?) to a later date I'm not aware of a KVM solution for classic hardware, but with more modern hardware, IP solutions tend to be expensive and complex. I have several that I'm currently using, and even though I can find a lot of the individual devices/components on the surplus market, they have not been cheap or easy to get working. A major drawback to these systems is that virtually all actually encode the VGA signal in real time and stream it as a video to the client software. Because of this, you can't cut and paste text between the remote and local host when you are using one of these systems. The video encoding also introduces noise and artifacts into the video, which makes these systems incredibly annoying to use if you have to use one for long periods of time. The video streaming also means that pretty much all of these devices are limited to more modern web browsers. The less expensive devices ($500-$1000) tend use ActiveX so they only work with Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Some are even so poorly designed that they only work with IE6. Since last year, a few have begun to support Java 6, but those don't yet support Java 7, which is what Oracle is pushing now that they've bought Sun and have depreciated Java 6 (and plan to discontinue it next year). Mozilla is even currently trying to scare people away from Java 6 and towards Java 7 with via the Firefox plugin status/update stuff. Put simply, KVM over IP is a pain in the butt to support, and unless you need it for remote servers where you only need it for occasional maintenance, you are better off avoiding it. >> Keep in mind that Lantronix also only provides Windows drivers for port >> redirection with their serial devices. > > like normal, windows runs the world :) I'm not so sure about that. Even cable TV boxes and smart phones are running Linux these days. Fun fact: Many of Lantronix's own serial devices have used Linux under the hood (and they haven't always been particularly good about releasing the source code per the terms of the GPL license). > I did find some linux com port redirectors Did any have source code available or support their older devices? >> Based on my own experience I'd recommend using parallel where you can >> for sending print jobs out to the Linux machine and save serial for >> outgoing connections from and data transfers to/from the classic >> hardware. > > thats what i was think Maybe even tackle each of these one at a time? >> If you need to remotely locate your printers, have the Linux machine >> talk to print server devices near your printers. If the Linux machine >> is close to the printers and you don't have very many printers, skip >> the ethernet print servers entirely and save yourself the trouble and >> headaches they absolutely /will/ cause. > > I am looking at a 1:1 ratio with the printer servers (1 printer to 1 > printer server) Are your printers located near each other? Even if you go with network connected print server devices, multi-port parallel port print servers tend to resell for considerably less on the surplus market than those designed for single printers. There are even some that have both parallel and serial outputs (I use a few of these myself). If the printers are located near the Linux machine that you are going to use as a print server, it is still far easier to just install one or more parallel and/or serial I/O cards and connect the printers to that though. PS, your email client seems to seriously mangle quoting and manually fixing it is quite tedious. From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sun Oct 28 17:39:57 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:39:57 +0100 Subject: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: hello Holm, I did not find the way to get the vms cd distribution cd I bought from montagar several years ago,I do not know if they still do it????a way remains to get vms software : from time to time cd appear on ebay with complete distributions,I looked today :a few offers are present not very expensive with vms vax 7.1 .I do not know if it is possible to get licenses for hobby now,without them layered products are not usable but remember that without license you can use vms with all its utilities and assembly language for one user from the terminal console,and lots of freeware exist:c language,apl also but alas not fortran ,also cmuip to go to internet exists and really it is impossible to describe all what is available,and as recent versions of vms (6 and 7 )can use iso cdroms ,any cdrom burnt on a pc will be usable ...best regards Alain Nierveze www.radio-astronomie.com nierveze at radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2012 2:15 PM Subject: Re: Microvax II won't boot, hardware error? > Scott Quinn wrote: > >> >> Josh writes: >> >> >> > >> >I also have a MicroVAX I (Currently housing a KA650, but I still have >> >the >> >original boardset). It would be fun to get it running VMS -- the >> >MicroVAX >> >I tops out at VMS 5.1, though. Where can one find media (and licenses) >> >for >> >older versions of VMS? >> > >> >- Josh >> >> >> >> The license comes from the VMS Hobbyist Program. It's good for any >> version of VMS, from 0.whateveryoucanfind to 8.4. >> Even though early versions of VMS do not enforce licensing through the >> LMF, it's still required. >> >> Media can be borrowed. HP doesn't care where you get it, but asks that it >> not be posted for public download. > > Hmmm... > > I do habe an hobbyist license for my 4000/90, got an VMS Isntall CD (don't > know the version currently) borrowed from a friend. > So what is the correct way to get an install media for wathever Version? > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 28 18:28:41 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:28:41 -0700 Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:50 PM +0000 10/28/12, Tony Duell wrote: > > I should have asked you what the publication date of yours is. It >> looks like I was confused, and Vol. 1 was done in '92 and redone '99. > >Mine says 'Copyright 1999' in it. Thanks Tony! I just ordered a copy, and I'll have it on Wednesday. I'm really surprised the 1999 edition has a Commodore 64 Shutter Tester. That's pretty cool, as at that point the C64 was 17 years old. If the weather is as bad next weekend as it is this weekend, I might start building it. I figure it will be 'good enough' for the antique shutter for my 8x10 lens. > > >The Leica and Nikon books are interesting, but I regard those cameras as > > >being worth buing the service manuals for. > > > > I should start picking them up and start expanding my library to > > include repair information. I also need to start building (or buying > >As I siad, I can;'t afford the manufacturer manuals for all the cameras I >own or are interested in. So I have bought them for cameras I really care >about, and will foolw my insticts on the rest. I figure I'll start slowly with the Tomosy books. Then maybe a few specific books. > > I'd already planned on starting on camera's I don't care about. I've > > found I'm starting to become a dumping ground. I have a Petrie I'll > >I know the feeling... > >One other thing that Tomosey says and which I entirely agree with is that >uou must always do the best work you can, even on 'junk'. Do not get into >the habit of saying 'Oh, this is worthless, I don't nbeed ot do the job >properly'. You must not learn bad habits! Definitely. Besides I wouldn't mind having a nice working Petrie. :-) > > likely start with. So far the extent of my repair work has been a >> Nikkor Series-E 50mm f/1.8 lens in the late 80's (I was on a ship, it > >I have never realyl botheresd with the Series-E lenses. Partly because I >tend to avoid stuff build down to a price and partly becasue the lack the >coupling form for non-AI meters. Yes, I know it can often be added, bnt.. When I bought it I didn't know any better, it was the first lens, for the first camera I bought, a Nikon FM2. I travelled the world with it and an ancient 135mm f/2.8 that was converted to AI. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From lproven at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 18:29:17 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:29:17 +0000 Subject: RISC OS for Raspberry Pi released Message-ID: Don't know if this is "classic" enough, but it might interest some people... https://www.riscosopen.org/news/articles/2012/10/26/risc-os-pi-released-risc-os-for-the-raspberry-pi There is a final, complete, stable version of Acorn's classic Archimedes OS now for the Raspberry Pi, making the RPi the cheapest Acorn-compatible there's ever been by a long way. It's based on ROOL's RISC OS 5.19, the latest version of the shared-source fork of RO, based off Pace's version. (That's Pace the satellite-TV/set-top-box/modem company.) RISC OS Ltd is still developing its closed proprietary version based off Acorn's unfinished betas of what was to become RISC OS 4 and still claims that Pace/Castle's version is unauthorised and not legitimately licenced. However, nobody much cares any more. ROL hasn't released a new version in several years and doesn't support modern and recent ARM hardware such as the Iyonix, BeagleBoard, PandaBoard and now Raspberry Pi - it basically just sells (quite expensive) updates of RISC OS 4 for classic Acorn hardware and directly hardware-compatible machines. It rebadged the latest update after 4.39 "RISC OS SIX" just to leapfrog Pace and ROOL's developments of RISC OS 5. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Sun Oct 28 18:55:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 18:59:37 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > I didn't see this page at the time but would have liked to. > > If I recall didn't this board try to copy with a binary image approach? A lot of their software did, but the board could have been used for most flux transition based work. I played with TE a lot, but never bothered to launch TC There were other issues with the software. > the place the copywrite board got screwed on was with a media (who made > it I forget) with a laser defect on a specific track. If the bits > defect time didn't match from the index hole to the defect, I know of > one software package that would fail. What it did was measure the bit > time up to the hole. Some versions were even cruder! They would merely check to make sure that the scratrch was in the right sector. Clever piracy programs could merely rearrange the sector sequence until they got the right sector. SOME piracy programs just faked the error in software, after which the lock programs started confirming inability to rewrite/reformat the basd sector. > Once it knew this they had allocated space after > the hole and attempted to write a sector from that bit position to the > end of the track. if that failed as it would with the special damaged > media at the correct spot, then they knew they had the correct failed > media, which was therefore genuine. That was Pro-Lock from Vault Corporation. The origianl design called for a scratch made with a paper clip. But, to attract investors, the paperclip was replaced with a LASER. "Laser fingerprint" sounded much more impressive than "a bunch of kids in the back room scratching the disks with paperclips". > Unfortunately for the vendor if you copied the media, and used a write > protect on the media, you got the same result as their special media. EASILY solved by checking WHAT KIND OF eror was produced! Vault Corpse shot themselves in the foot with Heavy Artillery! ! I maintain that it was the biggest foot shoot in computer history! WAY bigger than anything that Adam Osborn did! They announced that their NEW AND IMPROVED version, "Pro-Lock PLUS", when it detected a bogus disk would trash the hard drive! Within hours of their announcement, the computer press started talking about "over reaction", "false positives", "irresponsibility", etc. EVERY major customer who was using it discontinued. IMMEDIATELY. MOST issued press releases saying that they had never used the PLUS version and never would. Vault Corpse lost their entire customer base INSTANTLY. They NEVER got a customer for it, and never sold a single Pro-Lock PLUS. EVER. NOT ONE. Nevertheless, word was out! For decades, less than completely competent computer advice columnists would answer problems that they didn't understand with stuff like, "maybe it's a virus! or a copy protection program out of control!" > Quite a sport trying to create and defeat these schemes back then. Yes, it was! I was never involved in it. Well, barely. My publisher (May they Rot In Pieces) used copy protection. Once I regained publication rights, I put a copy protection on XenoCopy-PC, that removed itself as soon as the customer supplied their name (displayed on the title page). Since most people (other than columnists) don't PLAN to make copies for their friends until later, MOST put their real names in, and only a few Mickey Mouse's. MAJOR TRADE SECRET: The protection consisted of changing the first byte of the FAT!, THAT'S ALL! so that DISKCOPY (and the install program) thought that it was a single sided disk, and attempts to COPY the UNINSTALLED .EXE failed. Once INSTALL ran, it copied their name and checksum into the .EXE, and changed that byte back. When some people contemplated giving their friends copies, they would hesitate because their name was irrevocably embedded in the title page. XenoCopy-PC (and damn near anything else) could copy the uninstalled disk, but DISKCOPY could not. Just for sport: One of the flaws in CopyII was total reliance on the index hole. If you created a disk without an index hole, it choked. 1) modify a drive to index off of the spindle, instead of the index hole, and FORMAT the disk. It now has an index hole in the wrong place! Depending on where, THAT might be enough! 2) to create a disk without an index hole, flip it over! then format with the modified drive. But, somebody COULD punch a hole in the jacket, and have an index hole, albeit possibly in the wrong place. SO, start with a hard-sectored disk! Now, if they punch a hole, they have too many index holes, and CopyII chokes. The result from these steps, if done, would create a disk that CopyII couldn't touch, but that DISKCOPY would have no problems making a usable copy from! If just for sport, that's where we leave it! If you actually WANT copy protection for some godawful reason, then add something trivial to stop DISKCOPY and the like. What was even more fun was to create a multi-format (read-only?) 5.25" distribution disk format! Since disk formats use a lot of different locations for the DIRectory, it was possible to put half a dozen different DIRectories at different, appropriate locations on the same disk, each pointing to it's own appropriate file. Since the file had to be written on some tracks in 256 byte sectors, on some as 512 byte, and some as 1024 byte, you could only use about a quarter of the disk capacity. (You can ask David Dunfield why 128 byte wasn't one of my choices!) Coco and TRS80 were mutually exclusive (pick only one!) due to all having their DIRectory on track 17, but Apple][ cou8ld use part of the backside, since it wasn't reliant on an index hole. But CP/M DIRectories on tracks 1,2,3, with mixed sector sizes on those tracks, relying on the OS stopping as soon as it had found the desired file directory entry on the first of its sectors, and therefore not needing the entire track. Could even flip the disk for another group of DIRectory tracks, AND you could have Apple][ on the backside of the disk and TRS80 on the front. It didn't even need to be a single sided MS-DOS or other formats, as long as you avoided using any of the tracks that you used on the backside for Apple][ or any other "backside" formats. No expected longevity for its usefulness, since distribution on multiple CP/M formats was already doomed. (As Dysan found out when they bet the company on 3.25") On 3.5", MS-DOS and early Mac can't EASILY co-exist, but there are some further tricks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 28 19:03:20 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:03:20 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72AEB440-BA7F-444E-B70B-057EEE3987E0@me.com> It depends on your goals. It's like the difference between painting and photography. There are some really great films out there, and processes to try. I've seen some amazingly beautiful wet-plate shots. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-28, at 7:55 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 19:12:24 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:12:24 -0600 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/28/2012 5:55 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any > realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? > Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. > I read somewhere that digital cameras still have problems with bright light, I still like film ... just wind ,point and click. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 19:16:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121028170655.R33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any realistic > benefits to film these days considering the expense? Personally the best > film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. A digital camera is better suited for YOU. When I run out of 55P/N, it may be a while before I use my Linhof again. I haven't been using much film lately. But, 5MP, 10MP, 15MP is NOT as much image entropy as even 35mm. I can't afford a 4X5 or 8X10 digital back. When I can find a TINY 12MP digital camera cheap, then I'll find new homes for my Tessina, Minox, Minolta 16. Price (not necessarily "value") is growing so fast that they might be worth keeping as "investment", along with my Leicas, Nikonos, etc. I might just only use digital , and change from being a film camera USER to a film camera COLLECTOR. Maybe I already have. Micro 4/3s, Sony Nex (APS-c) already let me use my film camera lenses, bellows, etc. on small digitals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 19:22:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used > > a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, > Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? I don't know. Obviously, right here, it means 5150 > > Leica for $20. The only manual for Leica repair available in > > those days (1965) in the USA Library Of Congress was in Russian. > Was that actually a Fed. or Zorki service manual? The early FEDs and > Zorkis were prtty much Leica copies. I don't remember for sure, but I assume that it was. > YEs. I got a lot of interesting models that way. A copupe lf lcal shops > knoew I wanted such things and used ot offer them to me at low prices. broken/cheap good cameras don't seem to be available anymore. > > in a paper bag labelled "most of a Linhof, $20"! > I like it ! I LOVE it! I made parts to adapt a Graflex back onto it, and got the rest going OK! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 28 19:19:36 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:19:36 +0000 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508DCB98.9040105@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/10/2012 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? The names of the companies who made the shutters those connectors appeared on, of course :-) Except I think the second one is actually the name of their famous shutter product rather than the parent company. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 28 19:25:11 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:25:11 -0700 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com> <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508DCCE7.9040106@jwsss.com> On 10/28/2012 4:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: >> I didn't see this page at the time but would have liked to. >> >> If I recall didn't this board try to copy with a binary image approach? > A lot of their software did, but the board could have been used for most > flux transition based work. I played with TE a lot, but never bothered > to launch TC > > > There were other issues with the software. > > >> the place the copywrite board got screwed on was with a media (who made >> it I forget) with a laser defect on a specific track. If the bits >> defect time didn't match from the index hole to the defect, I know of >> one software package that would fail. What it did was measure the bit >> time up to the hole. > Some versions were even cruder! They would merely check to make sure > that the scratrch was in the right sector. Clever piracy programs > could merely rearrange the sector sequence until they got the right sector. > SOME piracy programs just faked the error in software, after which > the lock programs started confirming inability to rewrite/reformat > the basd sector. > >> Once it knew this they had allocated space after >> the hole and attempted to write a sector from that bit position to the >> end of the track. if that failed as it would with the special damaged >> media at the correct spot, then they knew they had the correct failed >> media, which was therefore genuine. > That was Pro-Lock from Vault Corporation. The origianl design called > for a scratch made with a paper clip. But, to attract investors, the > paperclip was replaced with a LASER. "Laser fingerprint" sounded much > more impressive than "a bunch of kids in the back room scratching the > disks with paperclips". > >> Unfortunately for the vendor if you copied the media, and used a write >> protect on the media, you got the same result as their special media. > EASILY solved by checking WHAT KIND OF eror was produced! > > Vault Corpse shot themselves in the foot with Heavy Artillery! ! > I maintain that it was the biggest foot shoot in computer history! > WAY bigger than anything that Adam Osborn did! > They announced that their NEW AND IMPROVED version, "Pro-Lock PLUS", > when it detected a bogus disk would trash the hard drive! Within > hours of their announcement, the computer press started talking > about "over reaction", "false positives", "irresponsibility", etc. > EVERY major customer who was using it discontinued. IMMEDIATELY. > MOST issued press releases saying that they had never used the > PLUS version and never would. Vault Corpse lost their entire > customer base INSTANTLY. They NEVER got a customer for it, > and never sold a single Pro-Lock PLUS. EVER. NOT ONE. > > Nevertheless, word was out! For decades, less than completely > competent computer advice columnists would answer problems that > they didn't understand with stuff like, "maybe it's a virus! > or a copy protection program out of control!" > > >> Quite a sport trying to create and defeat these schemes back then. > Yes, it was! > I was never involved in it. Well, barely. My publisher > (May they Rot In Pieces) used copy protection. > > Once I regained publication rights, I put a copy protection > on XenoCopy-PC, that removed itself as soon as the customer > supplied their name (displayed on the title page). > Since most people (other than columnists) don't PLAN to make > copies for their friends until later, MOST put their real names > in, and only a few Mickey Mouse's. > > MAJOR TRADE SECRET: The protection consisted of changing the > first byte of the FAT!, THAT'S ALL! > so that DISKCOPY (and the install program) thought that it was > a single sided disk, and attempts to COPY the UNINSTALLED .EXE > failed. > Once INSTALL ran, it copied their name and checksum into the .EXE, > and changed that byte back. > When some people contemplated giving their friends copies, > they would hesitate because their name was irrevocably embedded > in the title page. > > XenoCopy-PC (and damn near anything else) could copy the > uninstalled disk, but DISKCOPY could not. > > > > > Just for sport: > One of the flaws in CopyII was total reliance on the index hole. > If you created a disk without an index hole, it choked. > 1) modify a drive to index off of the spindle, instead of the > index hole, and FORMAT the disk. > It now has an index hole in the wrong place! Depending on where, > THAT might be enough! > 2) to create a disk without an index hole, flip it over! then > format with the modified drive. > But, somebody COULD punch a hole in the jacket, and have an > index hole, albeit possibly in the wrong place. SO, start > with a hard-sectored disk! > Now, if they punch a hole, they have too many index holes, > and CopyII chokes. > The result from these steps, if done, would create a disk > that CopyII couldn't touch, but that DISKCOPY would have > no problems making a usable copy from! If just for sport, > that's where we leave it! > If you actually WANT copy protection for some godawful reason, > then add something trivial to stop DISKCOPY and the like. > > > > What was even more fun was to create a multi-format (read-only?) > 5.25" distribution disk format! Since disk formats use a lot of > different locations for the DIRectory, it was possible to put > half a dozen different DIRectories at different, appropriate > locations on the same disk, each pointing to it's own appropriate file. > Since the file had to be written on some tracks in 256 byte sectors, > on some as 512 byte, and some as 1024 byte, you could only use about > a quarter of the disk capacity. (You can ask David Dunfield why 128 > byte wasn't one of my choices!) Coco and TRS80 were mutually > exclusive (pick only one!) due to all having their DIRectory > on track 17, but Apple][ cou8ld use part of the backside, since it > wasn't reliant on an index hole. But CP/M DIRectories on tracks 1,2,3, > with mixed sector sizes on those tracks, relying on the OS stopping > as soon as it had found the desired file directory entry on the first > of its sectors, and therefore not needing the entire track. > Could even flip the disk for another group of DIRectory tracks, > AND you could have Apple][ on the backside of the disk and TRS80 > on the front. > It didn't even need to be a single sided MS-DOS or other formats, > as long as you avoided using any of the tracks that you used on > the backside for Apple][ or any other "backside" formats. > > No expected longevity for its usefulness, since distribution on > multiple CP/M formats was already doomed. (As Dysan found out > when they bet the company on 3.25") > > On 3.5", MS-DOS and early Mac can't EASILY co-exist, but there are some > further tricks. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > You remembered the company for sure. I think my mob were probably one of their customers that kept buying media till the bitter end because they only used the media, and did nothing with the rest of Vault's technology. Never used any other versions. of the technology. The other two problems for the company in question I was referring to were that they had some compartmentalization of the coding, so you had a fairly talented clever programmer doing the low level work on the mechanism to create and check the protection scheme. and that part of the code. Once that work was done, they had others in the group incorporate it into the system installation and operational code, and guess what. There was a single place in the entire OS that called this, and if it called the code to do the check it printed a message and did a halt and catch fire... or a return to the caller. Can you guess how hard removing the entire mess was... find the message, and put in a 0xC3 in the correct spot. I was working as a contractor for them at the time, and I was summonsed to the main office at one time to talk to the head of the company. I was asked if copies could be made and I told him yes. And told him copy-ii pc and copywrite were two possibles. No one had ever thought to assign anyone to do a clean room or any other attempt to attack their own scheme. Thanks for the reply, Fred, very good reading. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 19:26:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 17:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, ben wrote: > I read somewhere that digital cameras still have problems with bright > light, I still like film ... just wind ,point and click. It's still not easy to get a digital with decent front and rear movements! And the image isn't enough pixels. But, the Gigapan seems to be my next attempt. Have to not mind non-simultaneous exposure of different parts of the image, even worse than the artifacts of a focal plane shutter. Maybe, when digitals get cheap, I'll bolt a dozen 10MP cameras together, and master some stitching software. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 28 19:29:13 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:29:13 +0000 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508DCDD9.2020108@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/10/2012 23:55, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any > realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? Possibly two or three. First, longevity. A properly processed and stored negative has a life provably measured in at least tens of decades and probably several times that, whereas you'll almost certainly have to re-write and transfer digital images to other media and formats several times over such a period. Secondly, resolution. At least, medium format gives high resolution more affordably than digital, even if you merely count pixels (which actually is a poor measure of quality sometimes). A third might be authenticity. It's relatively easy to see if a negative has been altered or retouched. The flipside is of course ease of "improvement" to digital images. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From db at db.net Sun Oct 28 20:05:54 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:05:54 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <508DCDD9.2020108@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DCDD9.2020108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20121029010554.GA8633@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:29:13AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 28/10/2012 23:55, Chris Tofu wrote: > > > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any > > realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? > > Possibly two or three. > > First, longevity. A properly processed and stored negative has a life > provably measured in at least tens of decades and probably several times > that, whereas you'll almost certainly have to re-write and transfer > digital images to other media and formats several times over such a > period. As long as you are talking b&w film and not colour films with dyes. There are sadly many faded films now not to mention fungus that love to eat organic dyes. > > Secondly, resolution. At least, medium format gives high resolution > more affordably than digital, even if you merely count pixels (which > actually is a poor measure of quality sometimes). It will take a while before digital is affordable for comparable digital backs on MF and LF yes. > > A third might be authenticity. It's relatively easy to see if a > negative has been altered or retouched. The flipside is of course ease > of "improvement" to digital images. I have one word. "Karsh". People have been manipulating film images since the beginning, digital just made it easier. I agree about the longevity of media. We all know what happened with the domesday project in the UK, lunar landing video and 9t tape turning into glue. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 28 20:13:20 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:13:20 -0400 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508DCB98.9040105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <508DCB98.9040105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <0682A85C-1579-49B8-BD98-913FCE5C4CC8@me.com> For some reason I seem to remember it meaning "program control". Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-28, at 8:19 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 28/10/2012 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? > > The names of the companies who made the shutters those connectors > appeared on, of course :-) Except I think the second one is actually > the name of their famous shutter product rather than the parent company. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:13:51 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:13:51 -0400 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>,<20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: copywrite was the best copier I saw for PC,and it had programs to remove laser hole checks in some cases. It always did a better job for me than option boards ever did. PC copy protection was always a joke compared to stuff going on with the c64 in those days. > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:59:37 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, jim s wrote: > > I didn't see this page at the time but would have liked to. > > > > If I recall didn't this board try to copy with a binary image approach? > > A lot of their software did, but the board could have been used for most > flux transition based work. I played with TE a lot, but never bothered > to launch TC > > > There were other issues with the software. > > > > the place the copywrite board got screwed on was with a media (who made > > it I forget) with a laser defect on a specific track. If the bits > > defect time didn't match from the index hole to the defect, I know of > > one software package that would fail. What it did was measure the bit > > time up to the hole. > Some versions were even cruder! They would merely check to make sure > that the scratrch was in the right sector. Clever piracy programs > could merely rearrange the sector sequence until they got the right sector. > SOME piracy programs just faked the error in software, after which > the lock programs started confirming inability to rewrite/reformat > the basd sector. > > > Once it knew this they had allocated space after > > the hole and attempted to write a sector from that bit position to the > > end of the track. if that failed as it would with the special damaged > > media at the correct spot, then they knew they had the correct failed > > media, which was therefore genuine. > > That was Pro-Lock from Vault Corporation. The origianl design called > for a scratch made with a paper clip. But, to attract investors, the > paperclip was replaced with a LASER. "Laser fingerprint" sounded much > more impressive than "a bunch of kids in the back room scratching the > disks with paperclips". > > > Unfortunately for the vendor if you copied the media, and used a write > > protect on the media, you got the same result as their special media. > > EASILY solved by checking WHAT KIND OF eror was produced! > > Vault Corpse shot themselves in the foot with Heavy Artillery! ! > I maintain that it was the biggest foot shoot in computer history! > WAY bigger than anything that Adam Osborn did! > They announced that their NEW AND IMPROVED version, "Pro-Lock PLUS", > when it detected a bogus disk would trash the hard drive! Within > hours of their announcement, the computer press started talking > about "over reaction", "false positives", "irresponsibility", etc. > EVERY major customer who was using it discontinued. IMMEDIATELY. > MOST issued press releases saying that they had never used the > PLUS version and never would. Vault Corpse lost their entire > customer base INSTANTLY. They NEVER got a customer for it, > and never sold a single Pro-Lock PLUS. EVER. NOT ONE. > > Nevertheless, word was out! For decades, less than completely > competent computer advice columnists would answer problems that > they didn't understand with stuff like, "maybe it's a virus! > or a copy protection program out of control!" > > > > Quite a sport trying to create and defeat these schemes back then. > > Yes, it was! > I was never involved in it. Well, barely. My publisher > (May they Rot In Pieces) used copy protection. > > Once I regained publication rights, I put a copy protection > on XenoCopy-PC, that removed itself as soon as the customer > supplied their name (displayed on the title page). > Since most people (other than columnists) don't PLAN to make > copies for their friends until later, MOST put their real names > in, and only a few Mickey Mouse's. > > MAJOR TRADE SECRET: The protection consisted of changing the > first byte of the FAT!, THAT'S ALL! > so that DISKCOPY (and the install program) thought that it was > a single sided disk, and attempts to COPY the UNINSTALLED .EXE > failed. > Once INSTALL ran, it copied their name and checksum into the .EXE, > and changed that byte back. > When some people contemplated giving their friends copies, > they would hesitate because their name was irrevocably embedded > in the title page. > > XenoCopy-PC (and damn near anything else) could copy the > uninstalled disk, but DISKCOPY could not. > > > > > Just for sport: > One of the flaws in CopyII was total reliance on the index hole. > If you created a disk without an index hole, it choked. > 1) modify a drive to index off of the spindle, instead of the > index hole, and FORMAT the disk. > It now has an index hole in the wrong place! Depending on where, > THAT might be enough! > 2) to create a disk without an index hole, flip it over! then > format with the modified drive. > But, somebody COULD punch a hole in the jacket, and have an > index hole, albeit possibly in the wrong place. SO, start > with a hard-sectored disk! > Now, if they punch a hole, they have too many index holes, > and CopyII chokes. > The result from these steps, if done, would create a disk > that CopyII couldn't touch, but that DISKCOPY would have > no problems making a usable copy from! If just for sport, > that's where we leave it! > If you actually WANT copy protection for some godawful reason, > then add something trivial to stop DISKCOPY and the like. > > > > What was even more fun was to create a multi-format (read-only?) > 5.25" distribution disk format! Since disk formats use a lot of > different locations for the DIRectory, it was possible to put > half a dozen different DIRectories at different, appropriate > locations on the same disk, each pointing to it's own appropriate file. > Since the file had to be written on some tracks in 256 byte sectors, > on some as 512 byte, and some as 1024 byte, you could only use about > a quarter of the disk capacity. (You can ask David Dunfield why 128 > byte wasn't one of my choices!) Coco and TRS80 were mutually > exclusive (pick only one!) due to all having their DIRectory > on track 17, but Apple][ cou8ld use part of the backside, since it > wasn't reliant on an index hole. But CP/M DIRectories on tracks 1,2,3, > with mixed sector sizes on those tracks, relying on the OS stopping > as soon as it had found the desired file directory entry on the first > of its sectors, and therefore not needing the entire track. > Could even flip the disk for another group of DIRectory tracks, > AND you could have Apple][ on the backside of the disk and TRS80 > on the front. > It didn't even need to be a single sided MS-DOS or other formats, > as long as you avoided using any of the tracks that you used on > the backside for Apple][ or any other "backside" formats. > > No expected longevity for its usefulness, since distribution on > multiple CP/M formats was already doomed. (As Dysan found out > when they bet the company on 3.25") > > On 3.5", MS-DOS and early Mac can't EASILY co-exist, but there are some > further tricks. > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:18:42 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:18:42 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029010554.GA8633@night.db.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DCDD9.2020108@dunnington.plus.com> <20121029010554.GA8633@night.db.net> Message-ID: proud owner of a pentax 6x7 rolleicord and a zorki and a box of fujichrome ms100/1000 in the freezer :D http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/sets/72157619167778298/ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Oct 28 20:27:58 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210290127.VAA25024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And the image isn't enough pixels. Indeed. Somewhere, I have a goregous B&W print of a picture someone else took, showing me getting onto a city bus in the middle of winter. (The reason this is an interesting picture is irrelevant here.) I don't recall the exact size; in my memory it's something close to 6"x8". Lovely fine detail, obviously done by someone who knows how to take high-depth-of-field shots and process them right. But I have trouble imagining getting a print that good out of digital with anything less than at least 500dpi resolution, probably better. Digital cameras with 3000x4000 pixel resolution might exist, but they probably are even rarer than whatever the guy who took the shot used, and surely far more expensive. And good luck finding a way to print the result in that kind of detail; it's the rare printer that can print greyscale without diterhing, and if that print is dithered it's got to be in at least the low thousands of DPI for the print engine, and by the time you're buying not only the camera but the printer to do that you could blinkin' well _make_ a film camera good enough to take that shot and maybe even one-off the film for it too. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:56:35 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:56:35 -0500 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: what exactly is this board? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 28 21:08:40 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:08:40 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> Message-ID: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> On 10/28/2012 11:12 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Yesterday I got a SDK-86 as a gift from a friend. > > It was well used, and stored in a damp and dirty place. I > disassembled mostly of it, washed the board, disassembled the keys, > washed the keycaps, and it is looking like new :o) I'm building a page > about that, but I'd like to ask some questions... > > - What documentation came with it? And what is avaiable? I have the > 9800697/698/699 manuals avaiable on bitsavers, but is there something else? > - Can I link the documents on bitsavers on my page? I don't have > that much space on my server and, although I like to keep a duplicate > copy of the documents online, I just can't at this moment. > - In the kit, what kind of sockets came with it? I see most sockets > are Texas Instruments, but some are made by another company (and I know > how unreliably they are). Should I change all the TI sockets to turned > pin ones, or can I keep than and change only the gray ones I know that > will cause me problems? > > Photos (and the page as soon as I finish rebuilding it) at > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/ Nice! These are cool boards. I have an SDK-85, SDK-86, and (unbuilt) SDK-51. I'd love to get the 8080 version, but they are pretty scarce. Man that board was dirty when you got it. But better a dirty board than no board! Is that the corner support of a RepRap Mendel that I see in photo #5? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Sun Oct 28 21:10:44 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:10:44 -0700 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508DE5A4.8080708@jwsss.com> On 10/28/2012 6:56 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what exactly is this board? > > An ISA board which was designed to be interposed between the floppy controller and the floppy drive of and ISA system to make copies of copy protected diskettes. Many methods were used to write special format tracks on drives and then check for their presence in the field by installation software to be sure only diskettes with the devices are able to successfully run the software. I believe it used flux transition methods to record what was on the diskette tracks, as well as having some awareness of some software packages to be able to duplicate media. The copywrite program also referred to here was a software only program to do the same thing. If you wanted to back up your installation media these two programs covered most available packages during that time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 21:14:46 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121028190725.I33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what exactly is this board? A "flux transition" board. It connects between the FDC, which still handles setting step to track signals, etc., and it looks ate the signal from the drive before the FDC gets hold of it for processing. It is functionally similar to the CatWeasel, DiscFerret, and Kryoflux. It was marketed base on its ability to make unauthorized copies of copy-protected disks. But, for OUR purposes, it provides a way to look at, or maybe even read, disk with physical formats that our FDCs can't handle. It can be used to edit data and clock bits, to fix certain kinds of flaws on disks. The "Deluxe" version can handle a number of things that the original board could not, such as Mac diskettes. But, the "deluxe" is VLSI, whereas some of the earliest ones were discrete chips. The Option Board came with a program called TC.EXE for copying disks, and a program called TE.EXE, which permitted editing the data and clock bits. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 28 21:17:31 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:17:31 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0700 10/28/12, Chris Tofu wrote: >I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any >realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? >Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. I use a mixture of digital, and film (35mm, 120, 4x5, and I'm finally ready to start 8x10) to capture my photo's. To print them I use both traditional processes (a local pro lab if colour), and an Epson R3000 printer. Additionally for my commercial fine art site, all prints are made by a Professional Lab in the Bay Area. When it comes to the lenses, I use anything from 100+ year old beaters, to state of the art Leica glass. One of my favorite lenses on my Leica is a 80 year old 50mm Summar f/2, while it lacks the perfection of the ~3 year old 50mm Summicron f/2 I have, it has more character than just about any lens I have (the Summar was also one of the cheapest lenses I own, in spite of being a Leica lens). As has been pointed out, MegaPixels is a poor judge, BUT, consider this, how many MP is in a sheet of 4"x5" or 8"x10" film, even when only scanned at 2400dpi? The best prints I've ever seen have been 8x10 contact prints made by Edward Weston. The sharpness of these prints, especially given the lenses he was using, is enough to blow ones mind! Digital *CAN NOT* touch a large format contact print done by a master of the craft! Then there is the question of Wet Plate. Wet Plate photographs done with Petzval Lenses from about 150 years ago are as a whole, the most beautiful photographs I've ever seen. This is my long term goal. My short term goal is to start producing 8x10 contact prints using a mixture of printing processes, including salt prints (basically the original process). Oh, and consider this, with a dirt cheap 35mm camera you can get a durable camera of top notch quality, that won't break your bank account if something happens to it. So they're good for when going out in unsafe areas. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 21:23:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > copywrite was the best copier I saw for PC,and it had programs to remove > laser hole checks in some cases. > It always did a better job for me than option boards ever did. > PC copy protection was always a joke compared to stuff going on with the > c64 in those days. At Ft. Meade, they dealt with copy protection that was way beyond anything possible on a home computer. If what you want to do0 is to make unauthorized copies of copy-protected diskettes, then an option board might be useful, but not as easy as a program written for the specific purpose of removing the copy-protection subroutine on that particular disk. Comparing an option board V dedicated Pro-lock removal is like comparing your hammer with your screwdriver. If you don't give a shit about copy-protection, then those programs are useless and silly. But, a "flux transition" board can be used for things that WE care about, such as examining GCR diskettes with a PC, and correcting, NOT JUST IGNORING, parity errors, including those that cause "sector not found" errors (assuming that some of the content of that sector is actually still around) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Oct 28 21:25:52 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:25:52 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 5:22 PM -0700 10/28/12, Fred Cisin wrote: > > YEs. I got a lot of interesting models that way. A copupe lf lcal shops > > knoew I wanted such things and used ot offer them to me at low prices. > >broken/cheap good cameras don't seem to be available anymore. I think a lot of them now show up on eBay labeled "for parts", and go for big $$$'s. :-( We do have a couple local shops that specialize in film gear that get interesting cheap stuff in from time to time. My one 8x10 cost me all of about $200 as it's intended for dry plates. I got my Deardorff V8 8x10 from the same shop, the bellows will need replaced in the near future (new ones are easy enough to get), but even factoring in the replacement bellows I got it for a song. Earlier this year I picked up a really fun 6x9 (120 roll film) with a Schneider lens for $10. Once I fixed the focus, it works great. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 21:37:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121028193049.T33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > When it comes to the lenses, I use anything from 100+ year old > beaters, to state of the art Leica glass. One of my favorite lenses > on my Leica is a 80 year old 50mm Summar f/2, while it lacks the > perfection of the ~3 year old 50mm Summicron f/2 I have, it has more > character than just about any lens I have (the Summar was also one of > the cheapest lenses I own, in spite of being a Leica lens). I've used a Summar for almost half a century. But, I would gladly trade it for a Summicron of any age or focal length! > only scanned at 2400dpi? The best prints I've ever seen have been > 8x10 contact prints made by Edward Weston. The sharpness of these > prints, especially given the lenses he was using, is enough to blow > ones mind! They are incredible! Weston and Adams are why I got my larger gear. My 8X10 is a century old POS in very poor condition ($5 in 1970) Someday I'll get a good one. I recently got a PAIR of C-mount Goerz Hypars that I'm going to try on Micro 4/3's -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 21:48:43 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121028194134.O33501@shell.lmi.net> > >broken/cheap good cameras don't seem to be available anymore. On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think a lot of them now show up on eBay labeled "for parts", and go > for big $$$'s. :-( The "golden age", when they went for nothing is gone. Being able to become a "collector" now would mean buying cameras for prices I previously would not have considered. 'course 15 years ago, people didn't want "collector" price for Apple ]['s either! > We do have a couple local shops that specialize in film gear that get > interesting cheap stuff in from time to time. My one 8x10 cost me > all of about $200 as it's intended for dry plates. I got my > Deardorff V8 8x10 from the same shop, the bellows will need replaced > in the near future (new ones are easy enough to get), but even > factoring in the replacement bellows I got it for a song. Earlier > this year I picked up a really fun 6x9 (120 roll film) with a > Schneider lens for $10. Once I fixed the focus, it works great. I did recently get a back for my Linhof, after more than 4 decades of using a Graflex back on it with homemade mountine. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 21:54:12 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:54:12 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 10:17 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > As has been pointed out, MegaPixels is a poor judge, BUT, consider this, > how many MP is in a sheet of 4"x5" or 8"x10" film, even when only scanned > at 2400dpi? The best prints I've ever seen have been 8x10 contact prints > made by Edward Weston. The sharpness of these prints, especially given the > lenses he was using, is enough to blow ones mind! Digital *CAN NOT* touch > a large format contact print done by a master of the craft! > Not sure if it is applicable in still-format photography, but in the motion picture world there is a concept of film to resolution equivalence. It's particularly important as with film you are enlarging the 35mm stock by several thousand percent when scanning into the digital domain. A "pixel" in the conversion is considered to be the smallest object that can be resolved and reproduced by the film or sensor. When using that comparison, a 35mm print is roughly 20 megapixels, or 8K resolution, assuming the film was shot and developed under ideal conditions. Scanning at any higher resolution doesn't buy you more detail, as you start getting into the grain at that point. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 22:03:14 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:03:14 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 28 22:12:06 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:12:06 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <07C128EA-C608-4E74-8DD9-47EB7070CA13@me.com> I've got a Pentax K-1000. Fantastic camera. And a Mamiya TLR medium format with the pentaprism. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-28, at 11:03 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 22:46:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell "Dell is the king of the PC world?" From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 28 22:47:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:47:42 -0600 Subject: ftp.compaq.com document? Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2012 16:38:45 MDT, Richard wrote: > > > Where does this live now? Found it at Alpha Architecture Handbook -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 28 23:02:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:02:00 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508DFFB8.1000409@sydex.com> On 10/28/2012 08:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell > > "Dell is the king of the PC world?" I guess my Nikon F and Tony's Leica are just so much chopped liver, then. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 23:03:15 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:03:15 -0600 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/28/2012 8:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > We do have a couple local shops that specialize in film gear that get > interesting cheap stuff in from time to time. My one 8x10 cost me all > of about $200 as it's intended for dry plates. I got my Deardorff V8 > 8x10 from the same shop, the bellows will need replaced in the near > future (new ones are easy enough to get), but even factoring in the > replacement bellows I got it for a song. Earlier this year I picked up > a really fun 6x9 (120 roll film) with a Schneider lens for $10. Once I > fixed the focus, it works great. > > Zane Well you can make Pin Hole camera's cheap ... :) Does anybody still do the very early photographic glass plates? Ben. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 23:07:14 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:07:14 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: dell sucks have you ever used an F1 hmm fun camera On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 10:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell > > "Dell is the king of the PC world?" > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 28 23:14:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:14:10 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <07C128EA-C608-4E74-8DD9-47EB7070CA13@me.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <07C128EA-C608-4E74-8DD9-47EB7070CA13@me.com> Message-ID: <508E0292.6040608@neurotica.com> On 10/28/2012 11:12 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've got a Pentax K-1000. Fantastic camera. And a Mamiya TLR medium format with the pentaprism. Nikon N70, N90S, FA. (I was raised on Nikon, my mother was a photographer at the time...I use my D50 most of the time now) I also have a Mamiya C-330 MF TLR that I love. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Sun Oct 28 23:19:09 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:19:09 -0400 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> That would probably wet plate photography. People are definitely still doing it, and getting some incredibly beautiful results. Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-29, at 12:03 AM, ben wrote: > On 10/28/2012 8:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> We do have a couple local shops that specialize in film gear that get >> interesting cheap stuff in from time to time. My one 8x10 cost me all >> of about $200 as it's intended for dry plates. I got my Deardorff V8 >> 8x10 from the same shop, the bellows will need replaced in the near >> future (new ones are easy enough to get), but even factoring in the >> replacement bellows I got it for a song. Earlier this year I picked up >> a really fun 6x9 (120 roll film) with a Schneider lens for $10. Once I >> fixed the focus, it works great. >> >> Zane > > Well you can make Pin Hole camera's cheap ... :) > Does anybody still do the very early photographic glass plates? > Ben. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 23:33:00 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121028212706.C33501@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > dell sucks agreed > have you ever used an F1 hmm fun camera It's VERY nice, but I prefer my Canon 7, with the 50mm f0.95 lens! (which will probably end up on my Sony Nex, unless I can find a Nikkor 105) BUT, ANY preference of one brand over another turns into a religious flamewar. (little known corollary of Godwin's law) Ford V Chevy Apple V TRS80 PC V Mac Atari V Commodore Dell V HPaq eMachine V Packard Bell etc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 28 23:46:19 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 21:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> Message-ID: <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> > Does anybody still do the very early photographic glass plates? about 35 years ago, a friend of mine was doing sandbox holography. She went in to Alpha Photo in Oakland, which was one of the few real professional supply houses, where she bought her supplies. They had different glass plates than she was used to using (dimensional stability was too critical for film), so she asked about their suitability for holography. The clerk said, "Don't know. But we have a customer who is really expert about that, and I'll find out!" When she got home, there was a message on her answering machine. "Hello, this is Mike from Alpha Photo. We have a customer who wants to know about glass plates for holography, . . . " Speaking of which, . . . Does anybody have need or use for a Fujinon table-top Holography System? (from the 1970s, barely used, but needs a new laser tube. NO, a pocket laser pointer is not suitable. Power supply is multi-tap, currently set for 100VAC (Japan), about 24" x 18" x 14") Free Pickup in Berkeley; I don't want to attempt to ship it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 00:01:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 01:01:33 -0400 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508E0DAD.7070807@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 12:46 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Does anybody still do the very early photographic glass plates? > > about 35 years ago, a friend of mine was doing sandbox holography. She > went in to Alpha Photo in Oakland, which was one of the few real > professional supply houses, where she bought her supplies. They had > different glass plates than she was used to using (dimensional stability > was too critical for film), so she asked about their suitability for > holography. The clerk said, "Don't know. But we have a customer who is > really expert about that, and I'll find out!" > > When she got home, there was a message on her answering machine. > "Hello, this is Mike from Alpha Photo. We have a customer who wants to > know about glass plates for holography, . . . " ROFL! That happened to me when I was working for an asshole about a decade ago. I was designing with Philips (now NXP) mcs51 processors, and he was convinced that I had no idea of what I was talking about. He called Philips behind my back, and asked them a bunch of questions. They told him they knew a guy local to him that was really good with those processors, and would likely help him out on a consulting basis. They then gave him my phone number. ;) Boy was he pissed. But about glass plate holography...On a list I run, a few people are doing a type of holography involving gelatin, DCG holograpy. (DiChromated Gelatin) Some of the guys are doing some pretty impressive work. They're using glass plates, coating them themselves. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 00:03:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:03:24 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> Message-ID: <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> On 10/28/2012 09:19 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > That would probably wet plate photography. People are definitely > still doing it, and getting some incredibly beautiful results. I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who make tintypes. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 29 00:18:34 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:18:34 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508E0DAD.7070807@neurotica.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0DAD.7070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508E11AA.6010004@jwsss.com> From Fred: and On 10/28/2012 10:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > But about glass plate holography...On a list I run, a few people are > doing a type of holography involving gelatin, DCG holograpy. > (DiChromated Gelatin) Some of the guys are doing some pretty impressive > work. They're using glass plates, coating them themselves. > > -Dave I worked with two other guys in 1971 with glass plates making both reflection and transmission holograms. Included both solid objects, but the best item in the transmission ones we made was a working lens. It was positioned such that there was an item you could see thru it, and move your head back and forth to change the magnification. I don't recall any attempt to use a mirror. We used helium-neon laser light or the exposure and playback. jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 00:38:52 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Aracnet) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:38:52 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508E0DAD.7070807@neurotica.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0DAD.7070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 28, 2012, at 10:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > But about glass plate holography...On a list I run, a few people are > doing a type of holography involving gelatin, DCG holograpy. > (DiChromated Gelatin) Some of the guys are doing some pretty impressive > work. They're using glass plates, coating them themselves. As far as I know, plates for holography are the only ones you can easily buy. I think you can still get dry plates for B&W from Europe, but, IIRC they started out at $100 for a box of 10 small plates. Most do wet plate, but a few make there own dry plates. The process to make dry plates looks rather time consuming, but doable. As for tintypes, it is easy to buy kits to do them. Zane From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Oct 29 00:44:49 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:44:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Recovery of stolen cameras? (was Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen ...) In-Reply-To: <20121028212706.C33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121028212706.C33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Has anyone here ever managed to recover or heard of someone recovering one of their cameras after it had been stolen? I have a short list of stuff that was stolen better than 10-15 years ago along with the serial numbers (for the stuff that had one). I used to keep watch on eBay and such but I eventually gave up. I suspect this stuff is probably in a landfill by now, but who knows? Here is the list of stuff that went missing: Nikon FT2 S/N 5351198 Nikon Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 lens S/N 914472 Vivitar automatic fixed mount 200mm f3.5 telephoto lens Nikon Nikkormat hard case CH-6 Nikon EM S/N 6293371 Nikon 50mm f/1.8 Series-E lens S/N 1353477 Nikon motor drive MD-E S/N 2009083 Nikon SB-E speedlight flash S/N 605396 Coastar 52mm 1A light pink optical filter I've also posted this list at: http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/stolen_nikon_camera_gear.txt From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 00:48:53 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 00:48:53 -0500 Subject: Recovery of stolen cameras? (was Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen ...) In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121028212706.C33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: can happen but be pritty rare speacialy with that much time passing and who knows u coulda walked right pasted ur gear and not known dozens of times On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 12:44 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > Has anyone here ever managed to recover or heard of someone recovering one > of their cameras after it had been stolen? I have a short list of stuff > that was stolen better than 10-15 years ago along with the serial numbers > (for the stuff that had one). I used to keep watch on eBay and such but I > eventually gave up. I suspect this stuff is probably in a landfill by now, > but who knows? > > Here is the list of stuff that went missing: > > Nikon FT2 S/N 5351198 > Nikon Micro-Nikkor 55mm f/3.5 lens S/N 914472 > Vivitar automatic fixed mount 200mm f3.5 telephoto lens > Nikon Nikkormat hard case CH-6 > Nikon EM S/N 6293371 > Nikon 50mm f/1.8 Series-E lens S/N 1353477 > Nikon motor drive MD-E S/N 2009083 > Nikon SB-E speedlight flash S/N 605396 > Coastar 52mm 1A light pink optical filter > > I've also posted this list at: > > http://strudel.ignorelist (dot) com/~tothwolf/classiccmp/** > stolen_nikon_camera_gear.txt > From christopher1400 at gmail.com Sun Oct 28 20:32:02 2012 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 18:32:02 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: While I still have film cameras around I find it hard to find any film locally anymore. I even had trouble finding something as simple as a Compact Flash card around here because everyone now has a camera phone, and I still use a 2003 Canon EOS 300D. One thing I like about film however is that it's great for learning, you screw up you're out money. Digital you screw up you get to go take the picture again and again, not be limited to however many pictures your film can hold. Some of the film cameras here are a Canon AT-1, Minolta XG-7 and the newest a Canon EOS 300 (Rebel 2000 to anyone here in the US). The advantage to the newest one is it uses the EF lenses which are still produced today. -- C:\win Bad Command Or File Name C:\ From nanoman at stny.rr.com Sun Oct 28 21:34:06 2012 From: nanoman at stny.rr.com (N Man) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 22:34:06 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508DEB1E.5000504@stny.rr.com> On 10/28/2012 10:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/28/2012 11:12 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yesterday I got a SDK-86 as a gift from a friend. >> >> It was well used, and stored in a damp and dirty place. I >> disassembled mostly of it, washed the board, disassembled the keys, >> washed the keycaps, and it is looking like new :o) I'm building a page >> about that, but I'd like to ask some questions... >> >> - What documentation came with it? And what is avaiable? I have the >> 9800697/698/699 manuals avaiable on bitsavers, but is there something >> else? >> - Can I link the documents on bitsavers on my page? I don't have >> that much space on my server and, although I like to keep a duplicate >> copy of the documents online, I just can't at this moment. >> - In the kit, what kind of sockets came with it? I see most sockets >> are Texas Instruments, but some are made by another company (and I know >> how unreliably they are). Should I change all the TI sockets to turned >> pin ones, or can I keep than and change only the gray ones I know that >> will cause me problems? >> >> Photos (and the page as soon as I finish rebuilding it) at >> http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/ > > Nice! These are cool boards. I have an SDK-85, SDK-86, and > (unbuilt) SDK-51. I'd love to get the 8080 version, but they are > pretty scarce. > > Man that board was dirty when you got it. But better a dirty board > than no board! > > Is that the corner support of a RepRap Mendel that I see in photo > #5? ;) > > -Dave > Dave, I will look in my basement. I have a SDK-85 and SDK-86 (both fully working 4 years ago). I think I have some manuals with them. Nanoman From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 02:29:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 03:29:32 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <508DEB1E.5000504@stny.rr.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508DEB1E.5000504@stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <508E305C.5000707@neurotica.com> On 10/28/2012 10:34 PM, N Man wrote: > On 10/28/2012 10:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/28/2012 11:12 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Yesterday I got a SDK-86 as a gift from a friend. >>> >>> It was well used, and stored in a damp and dirty place. I >>> disassembled mostly of it, washed the board, disassembled the keys, >>> washed the keycaps, and it is looking like new :o) I'm building a page >>> about that, but I'd like to ask some questions... >>> >>> - What documentation came with it? And what is avaiable? I have the >>> 9800697/698/699 manuals avaiable on bitsavers, but is there something >>> else? >>> - Can I link the documents on bitsavers on my page? I don't have >>> that much space on my server and, although I like to keep a duplicate >>> copy of the documents online, I just can't at this moment. >>> - In the kit, what kind of sockets came with it? I see most sockets >>> are Texas Instruments, but some are made by another company (and I know >>> how unreliably they are). Should I change all the TI sockets to turned >>> pin ones, or can I keep than and change only the gray ones I know that >>> will cause me problems? >>> >>> Photos (and the page as soon as I finish rebuilding it) at >>> http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/ >> >> Nice! These are cool boards. I have an SDK-85, SDK-86, and >> (unbuilt) SDK-51. I'd love to get the 8080 version, but they are >> pretty scarce. >> >> Man that board was dirty when you got it. But better a dirty board >> than no board! >> >> Is that the corner support of a RepRap Mendel that I see in photo >> #5? ;) >> >> -Dave >> > Dave, > > I will look in my basement. I have a SDK-85 and SDK-86 (both fully > working 4 years ago). I think I have some manuals with them. Thank you, but I think you meant to reply to Alexandre. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Oct 29 03:38:55 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:38:55 +0000 Subject: Recovery of stolen cameras? (was Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen ...) In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028204540.E33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121028212706.C33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 29 October 2012 05:44, Tothwolf wrote: > Has anyone here ever managed to recover or heard of someone recovering one > of their cameras after it had been stolen? I have a short list of stuff that > was stolen better than 10-15 years ago along with the serial numbers (for > the stuff that had one). I used to keep watch on eBay and such but I > eventually gave up. I suspect this stuff is probably in a landfill by now, > but who knows? It is a long time ago, but there are stories of things being recovered after longer periods ... were they reported to the police at the time? There are various websites that you can register stolen items on - our local police force recommend (and therefore presumably check against) http://www.immobilise.com/ - find as many such as you can and log the numbers - it's certainly worth a shot. Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 29 03:42:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 02:42:45 -0600 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> Message-ID: <508E4185.3010809@brouhaha.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote about the Intel SDK-86: > - What documentation came with it? And what is avaiable? I have the > 9800697/698/699 manuals avaiable on bitsavers, but is there something > else? It came with those three manuals and "The 8086 Family User's Manual" (9800722), also known as "The MCS-86 Family User's Manual", and in a later edition, as the "iAPX 86 88 User's Manual". From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 04:56:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 07:56:46 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Nice! These are cool boards. I have an SDK-85, SDK-86, and (unbuilt) > SDK-51. I'd love to get the 8080 version, but they are pretty scarce. There is a site with the boards redrawn, you can roll your own :o) > Man that board was dirty when you got it. But better a dirty board than > no board! It is clean now! :oD Look here: http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/19.jpg Now I just need to mount the ICs...I'll try to do it later today :o) > Is that the corner support of a RepRap Mendel that I see in photo #5? ;) Yep! This is my RepRap :oD I'm part of reprap-br group, very active here in Sao Paulo http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/ Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 05:08:23 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:08:23 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508DEB1E.5000504@stny.rr.com> <508E305C.5000707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9593173647A74FB9858BC0FBD8486087@tababook> >> I will look in my basement. I have a SDK-85 and SDK-86 (both fully >> working 4 years ago). I think I have some manuals with them. > Thank you, but I think you meant to reply to Alexandre. Thanks you all, but the manuals are scanned and avaiable on bitsavers, I already got it here :o) From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Oct 29 05:32:59 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 03:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware References: <1351298661.43646.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 26, 12 05:44:21 pm <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351406479.35212.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1351420191.16433.YahooMailNeo@web120402.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1351506779.58768.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tothwolf > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012 10:11 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: >>? From: Tothwolf >>>? On Sat, 27 Oct 2012, Tom Sparks wrote: >>> >>>>? ?I hoping to use ethernet hardware, so I can use power over > ethernet, >>>>? ATA over ethernet, KVM over ip, Audio over ethernet etc >>> >>>? IMO, you are getting way ahead of yourself. >> >>? file sharing and printer sharing is on the top of the list, the others are > at the bottom of the list > > With most classic hardware, you are probably going to have to handle printing > and transferring files separately, at least to keep things simple and halfway > manageable (and affordable on a hobbyist's budget). > >>>? AFAIK, the Lantronix UDS10 doesn't support PoE anyway. >> >>? the newer version dose (UDS1100) > > The UDS1100 isn't really the same animal as the UDS10. You'll also find > the newer models tend to go for a whole lot more on the surplus market because > people in the controls and automation industry currently use them and they need > to be able to obtain support from the manufacturer. ok > >>>? In fact, I don't think /any/ of their older (read: halfway > affordable) devices support PoE. >> >>? i'm looking at using PoE to eliminate as many wall warts as possible > > There are some serious drawbacks to PoE that a lot of people don't realize > until they've deployed it at least once or twice. > For this particular application though, PoE isn't something I would > personally recommend. ok > >>>? As far as KVM over IP goes, that's a whole 'nother ball of > wax... >> >>? i'll leave kvming (is that a word?) to a later date > > I'm not aware of a KVM solution for classic hardware, but with more modern > hardware, IP solutions tend to be expensive and complex. I have several that > I'm currently using, and even though I can find a lot of the individual > devices/components on the surplus market, they have not been cheap or easy to > get working. > Put simply, KVM over IP is a pain in the butt to support, > and unless you need it for remote servers where you only need it for occasional > maintenance, you are better off avoiding it. its a pipe dream > >>>? Keep in mind that Lantronix also only provides Windows drivers for port > redirection with their serial devices. >> >>? like normal, windows runs the world :) > > I'm not so sure about that. Even cable TV boxes and smart phones are running > Linux these days. but they are embed device > Fun fact: Many of Lantronix's own serial devices have used > Linux under the hood (and they haven't always been particularly good about > releasing the source code per the terms of the GPL license). sound like gpl-violations.org needs to be contacted > >>? I did find some linux com port redirectors > > Did any have source code available or support their older devices? > >>>? Based on my own experience I'd recommend using parallel where you > can for sending print jobs out to the Linux machine and save serial for outgoing > connections from and data transfers to/from the classic hardware. >> >>? thats what i was think > > Maybe even tackle each of these one at a time? > >>>? If you need to remotely locate your printers, have the Linux machine > talk to print server devices near your printers. If the Linux machine is close > to the printers and you don't have very many printers, skip the ethernet > print servers entirely and save yourself the trouble and headaches they > absolutely /will/ cause. >> >>? I am looking at a 1:1 ratio with the printer servers (1 printer to 1 > printer server) > > Are your printers located near each other? I think they well be > > PS, your email client seems to seriously mangle quoting and manually fixing it > is quite tedious. it looks ok on cctalk archive > From tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au Mon Oct 29 06:10:23 2012 From: tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au (Tom Sparks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 04:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <1351371738.40553.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Tom Sparks" at Oct 27, 12 02:02:18 pm Message-ID: <1351509023.30061.YahooMailNeo@web120403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ----- > From: Tony Duell > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012 6:56 AM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > >> > What is CUPS? >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CUPS > > Can;'t you just tell me what it is? CUPS is unix/linux printer server with spooling and rule based translation of print jobs > >> > >> > As I undertand it, then, you want ot have paralle input ports on the >> > linux box. >> no, I am think of using these parallel printer servers connected to the > printers >> the classic systems print request is send to the linux box >> the linux box sends the print request to the compatibly printer or save it > as a pdf file > > I do not understnad what you are trying to do. What do you mean by a > 'print request'? I using print request as the first step before it becomes a print job print request -> print job -> spool/queue -> output > > Can you explain jsut what is connected to what, using what interfaces. parallel port -> ethernet -> linux box -> ethernet -> printer server -> printer serial port -> ethernet -> linux box > >> >> >> >>? > DO you wnate otbe able to transfer data between the > computers? >> >>? yes, but only between the classic system and the linux server >> > >> > So each classic machine is only outputting data, right? >> no, I be running web browsers, telnet terminals, etc > > You start out by saying you want to only transfer data from the classic > to the linux box, which to me implies output only on the classic, input > only on the linux bos. Then you want to run web browsers, termianl > emulators ,etc. That implies bidirectional data transfer. Now what > _exactly_ are you tryign to do? on one side I want to make all my printer available to all my computers on the other side I want to be able to let my computers access a hand full of dial-up online services recreate on the linux box > > -tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 29 08:33:54 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 06:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for Mac serial to DataRover cable Message-ID: <201210291333.q9TDXsXU30277718@floodgap.com> Looking for a Mac mini-DIN serial to DataRover serial cable, as mine has disappeared in the move, apparently. Please contact me off list. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Either he's dead, or my watch has stopped. -- Groucho Marx ----------------- From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:29:54 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:29:54 -0400 Subject: RISC OS for Raspberry Pi released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 7:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Don't know if this is "classic" enough, but it might interest some people... > > https://www.riscosopen.org/news/articles/2012/10/26/risc-os-pi-released-risc-os-for-the-raspberry-pi > > There is a final, complete, stable version of Acorn's classic > Archimedes OS now for the Raspberry Pi, making the RPi the cheapest > Acorn-compatible there's ever been by a long way. > > It's based on ROOL's RISC OS 5.19, the latest version of the > shared-source fork of RO, based off Pace's version. (That's Pace the > satellite-TV/set-top-box/modem company.) RISC OS is a wonderful bit of software. I've been playing with it for a while and have even converted some popular open source fonts to RISC OS format. What really shocks me about RISC OS, despite the its fairly primitive internals, just how well the UI stuff works and how stable the system tends to be, even though I'm running an unsupported alpha version in an unsupported alpha emulator... Also, it has by far the best font rendering of any "classic" GUI. It has font rendering as good as or better than any modern system and it had it way back in 1989! I'd love to get some classic hardware (Especially an A540 and a RiscPC 700) but money is short and I'd have to pay for transatlatic shipping, so emulation and Raspberry Pi have to serve to give me my RISC OS fix for now. Mike From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:44:05 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:44:05 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> On 29 Oct 2012, at 3:54 , Jason McBrien wrote: > Not sure if it is applicable in still-format photography, but in the motion > picture world there is a concept of film to resolution equivalence. It's > particularly important as with film you are enlarging the 35mm stock by > several thousand percent when scanning into the digital domain. A "pixel" > in the conversion is considered to be the smallest object that can be > resolved and reproduced by the film or sensor. When using that comparison, > a 35mm print is roughly 20 megapixels, or 8K resolution, assuming the film > was shot and developed under ideal conditions. Scanning at any higher > resolution doesn't buy you more detail, as you start getting into the grain > at that point. Such a conversion factor is meaningless without a frame size indication. Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still photography: .tsooJ -- There are only 10 kinds of people in this world: those that understand binary, and those that don't. -- Joost van de Griek From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:51:29 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:51:29 -0400 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: the age-old argument. :)It wasn't about piracy, it was about making legal backups of stuff you owned.some of the copy protection could actually damage your equipment over time. technically you should duplicate all the protection and stuff.sometimes if your drive was out a bit, or something, the stuff wouldn't work. for most consumers, it just has to work. there were worse copy protections than laser burns. there was nothing really equivalent to v-max c64 copy protection on PC.unmodified drives were incapable of writing the data back the way it was written. but then a PC drive can't compare to a 1541, PC drives are dumb devices Dan. > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 19:23:01 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > copywrite was the best copier I saw for PC,and it had programs to remove > > laser hole checks in some cases. > > It always did a better job for me than option boards ever did. > > PC copy protection was always a joke compared to stuff going on with the > > c64 in those days. > > At Ft. Meade, they dealt with copy protection that was way beyond anything > possible on a home computer. > > > If what you want to do0 is to make unauthorized copies of copy-protected > diskettes, then an option board might be useful, but not as easy as a > program written for the specific purpose of removing the copy-protection > subroutine on that particular disk. Comparing an option board V dedicated > Pro-lock removal is like comparing your hammer with your screwdriver. > > If you don't give a shit about copy-protection, then those programs are > useless and silly. > > > But, a "flux transition" board can be used for things that WE care about, > such as examining GCR diskettes with a PC, and correcting, NOT JUST > IGNORING, parity errors, including those that cause "sector not found" > errors (assuming that some of the content of that sector is actually > still around) > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 29 10:10:12 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:10:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RISC OS for Raspberry Pi released In-Reply-To: from Michael Kerpan at "Oct 29, 12 10:29:54 am" Message-ID: <201210291510.q9TFACoV23330918@floodgap.com> > RISC OS is a wonderful bit of software. I've been playing with it for > a while and have even converted some popular open source fonts to RISC > OS format. What really shocks me about RISC OS, despite the its fairly > primitive internals, just how well the UI stuff works and how stable > the system tends to be, even though I'm running an unsupported alpha > version in an unsupported alpha emulator... Also, it has by far the > best font rendering of any "classic" GUI. It has font rendering as > good as or better than any modern system and it had it way back in > 1989! I'd love to get some classic hardware (Especially an A540 and a > RiscPC 700) but money is short and I'd have to pay for transatlatic > shipping, so emulation and Raspberry Pi have to serve to give me my > RISC OS fix for now. I just downloaded it for my own Rpi. Always wanted a RISC OS box, but Archies are hard to come by in the USA. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God is the tangential point between zero and infinity. -- Alfred Jarry ----- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 29 10:28:35 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:28:35 -0500 Subject: Colossal cave map In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C38C@505MBX2.corp.vnw. com> References: <201210261447.q9QElQpR005778@hugin2.pdp8online.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C2CF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <508C4647.5060203@brouhaha.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AAB259C38C@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201210291531.q9TFV0Pa002877@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:34 PM 10/27/2012, Rich Alderson wrote: >I first obtained a 5th-or-worse generation xerographic copy (highly >reduced, multiple pages) of it in 1977, when ADVENT infected the >UChicago DEC-20. I later saw a D- or E-sized single sheet rendering >hanging in Ralph Gorin's office in CERAS at LOTS (later outside his >office in Tresidder). If legible, such plots could be reconstructed by tracing in Adobe Illustrator. Contemporary sign-makers have tools that can load the Illustrator "legacy" EPS format and convert it to formats used by plotters and vinyl cutters. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 10:31:53 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:31:53 -0700 Subject: RISC OS for Raspberry Pi released In-Reply-To: <201210291510.q9TFACoV23330918@floodgap.com> References: <201210291510.q9TFACoV23330918@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 8:10 AM -0700 10/29/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I just downloaded it for my own Rpi. Always wanted a RISC OS box, but >Archies are hard to come by in the USA. I've always wanted one as well as RISC OS sounds interesting, so this might actually convince me to purchase a Raspberry Pi! Unfortunately the riscosopen site seems to be down at the moment. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 10:36:41 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:36:41 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 3:44 PM +0100 10/29/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: >Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still >photography: Referencing Ken Rockwell is another good way to start a flame war. It is disturbing how many people think he's a credible source. Though sometimes he is the easiest way to get basic info. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From db at db.net Mon Oct 29 11:04:36 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 11:04:36 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 08:36:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:44 PM +0100 10/29/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: > >Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still > >photography: > > Referencing Ken Rockwell is another good way to start a flame war. > It is disturbing how many people think he's a credible source. > Though sometimes he is the easiest way to get basic info. > > Zane I'm glad you said it and not me. It needed saying. > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | Oh why not. These are some of my shots, mostly snaps. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dyanora/ > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Oct 29 12:14:30 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:14:30 +0100 Subject: Anyone Used UKOneStopPCShop on eBay? Message-ID: There is a UK seller on eBay called ukonestoppcshop ( http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/ukonestoppcshop?_trksid=p2047675.l2559) which sells loads of old DEC gear as "Dell Refurbished". I want to ask them a question or two but eBay won't let me ask because "due to the high number of emails this seller receives, they aren't able to respond to your specific question right now". I want to ask them what Dell has got to do with it, what refurbishment they do, and a few questions on the specific items I am interested in. The feedback seems mostly good, but not universally so. Has anyone on this list used this seller? Regards Rob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 12:14:48 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:14:48 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508E4185.3010809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Ok, board cleaned, ICs reinserted, powered on and...no cigar. The board "does not work" At first, there was a failure in the reset circuit - the system reset switch was shorted internally (oh, murphy...). I disassembled the switch, and now the reset works. The program seems to be running. There is activity in all address and data lines. I can see some of the CS signals, but the display shows garbage (if you put the keyboard monitor on A27/30) and the serial does not send/receive anything (scope on pin 19 - TX - of the 8251, no activity). I have all the signals that should be on 8251 and no TX. Of course, I changed the 8251. Twice. Got a pack of ROMs/PROMs from MESS and compared with mine, everything works. I cannot test my BPROMs since the Beeprog does not work with the D3625A. Maybe I'll get an AVR and build something to dump it. Anyway, Address in, CS out. They seem to be working. I tested each TTL IC and changed it. Sockets seems to be clean. Board configured correctly. Also changed the LSIs (8255, 8251, 8279). The only IC I don't have to exchange is the 8086. Of course, I'm to lazy/busy to connect the logic analyser on the 8086 and start debugging. Even measured the frequency of the 14.7456 MHz crystal. Fine. Any tips? :o) Thanks, Alexandre Souza (I should be working...) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 12:36:04 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:36:04 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508E4185.3010809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Got a pack of ROMs/PROMs from MESS and compared with mine, everything > works. I cannot test my BPROMs since the Beeprog does not work with the > D3625A.... > > Any tips? :o) Did you/can you test your RAM? Do you have access to a system tester like a Fluke 9010A (with an 8086 pod, as well)? Not many folks have them, but if you do or can borrow one, they are nice for RAM tests, ROM test, bus tests, etc. I don't know anything about the D3625A PROMs, but one thing that might be handy is to make a pin-swabber socket. It's easy for JEDEC or near-JEDEC parts, a bit more work for oddball parts. The idea is to provide a socket for a 2K or 4K EPROM and stuff in a 2716 or 2732 which should work fine with your Beeprog. Of course if you have a ROM emulator, that's even easier to work with. Reading odd EPROMs is a lot easier than writing them, so the trick here is to fit in standard EPROMs to make it easy to put your own code on the machine. The idea is to be able to write some very simple "blink the LED"-type programs with a small handful of instructions and watch for success and make the programs incrementally more sophisticated so you can first be certain that the bus and ROM work, then RAM, then I/O chips, etc. In the early stages, you can use/make a simple logic probe or just use an oscilloscope to watch for the "output" of your program. Later, you would be able to spit out text via your UART, once you know more things are working. For really dead systems, there was a trick for the 6502 that might or might not work here... it involved taking a real 6502 and bending out the data leads and wiring them up to Vcc or GND so that no matter what address they fetched, the data returned was always a NOP instruction. This would cause the CPU to start up and run an endless cycle of NOPs, turning the address bus into a binary counter. You can then check the decode logic by watching chip enable (/CE) inputs strobe every time through the memory map, and by knowing what that map should look like you can verify how often /CE gets asserted at the ROMs, the RAMs, and the I/O chips. This trick won't find everything, but if, for example, you never see /CE at the RAM, you know where to start narrowing down the search. It's particularly effective with pre-PAL designs where you can trace the decode logic from gate to gate. I don't know if this trick is possible with an 8086, but if it is, it's a code-free way to explore some of the logic. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 12:53:37 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:53:37 -0400 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 27, 2012 at 5:20 PM, Tom Sparks wrote: > I am looking at buying a group of parallel to ethernet adapters > and a group of serial to ethernet adapters like the UDS10 Many years ago, I tried to hack a driver for the Xircom (parallel port) pocket ethernet adapters for AmigaDOS. I got as far as negotiations with folks within Xircom about getting information on how the devices talked to the PC parallel ports when they decided that they didn't want to "be in the market of supporting other platforms". I do know that they are not trivial to talk to, but perhaps there's now a Linux or BSD driver that could be inspected to divine out enough secrets to make an Amiga driver. I will say that it will never be fast. An 8MHz 68000 would have a hard time moving more than 200kb/sec peak without a DMA engine. There is native Amiga-to-Amiga parallel port networking available, but it's point-to-point (there never were cards for the Amiga for more parallel ports*, so it's one per machine) and AFAIK, nobody ever ported that code to a non-Amiga OS, so it doesn't help you connect up to a larger network. There were SCSI-to-Ethernet adapters that were somewhat popular in the older Mac era, but I don't remember anyone even attempting to use them on another platform. They would be difficult to find now, I'd expect. I would be "easy" to start with something like the same kinds of chips used by a couple different Commodore64 Ethernet adapters - the TCP/IP end of things is all handled by the chip (CS8900?) and the host just moves assembled packets to/from the chip via a simple interface. You'd still have to come up with driver support for each classic platform you wanted to support, but that's the same no matter where you go. -ethan * you could add a *printer* port, not a generic Amiga-compatible parallel port, to an Amiga by using a standard PC ISA card and a GG2 Bus+, but in practice, what folks did was to use those to talk to their printer and the Amiga native port to talk to digitizing devices (sound, Digiview, etc) because those expected to communicate with the 8520 CIA register set not an ISA card. OTOH, if you already have a GG2 Bus+, you can use a simple 10MBps ISA networking card and write no software whatsoever. A solution for an A2000, but not an A500 (you need a box with ISA and Zorro slots to mount the GG2 Bus+. There was never enough of a market to adapt the design to a slap-on-the-side version for the A500/A600. Technology wasn't the issue - it would work. It was just never financially feasible to design and build the product). -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 12:54:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 10:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > the age-old argument. :)It wasn't about piracy, it was about making > legal backups of stuff you owned. We really don't give a shit about whether or not there is justification for making the unauthorized copies. We ASSUME that there is a valid ethical legitimate reason. The question HERE is the technology, not anybody's personal excuses or rationalizations. > some of the copy protection could actually damage your equipment over > time. THAT calls for more detail. Or is merely an EXCUSE? (Such as "maybe Pro-lock PLUS really was secretly put into production??") > technically you should > duplicate all the protection and stuff.sometimes if your drive was out a > bit, or something, the stuff wouldn't work. for most consumers, it just > has to work. So? We don't need lectures about WHY copy protection needs to be defeated. THAT is assumed. But, it would be easier to just defenestrate them, or wait for them to suicide like Vault Corpse did. > there were worse copy protections than laser burns. WHY BOTHER? > there > was nothing really equivalent to v-max c64 copy protection on > PC.unmodified drives were incapable of writing the data back the way it > was written. Yeah. A modified drive can write stuf that a consumer drive can not. Then, IF the consumer drive (with special software) can tell the difference, then you have a copy protection scheme. > but then a PC drive can't compare to a 1541, PC drives are > dumb devices Dan. Oh yeah. But I can do things with an Apple][ drive that you can't do with a 1541. Hell, I can do things on a PC that you can't do with a 1541! A dumb device is much more versatile than one with its own controller built hardwired in the box. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 12:51:40 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:51:40 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508E4185.3010809@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0FCE3EE721C546BE99120A3BEEBA105C@tababook> > Did you/can you test your RAM? No. The P2142 is one of that RAMs that I haven't even heard of. It seems to be a 2114 with 4 bits. Of course, I can get some SRAM and put in its place, or create a small tester for a quick test on protoboard. > Do you have access to a system tester like a Fluke 9010A (with an 8086 > pod, as well)? Not many folks have them, but if you do or can borrow > one, they are nice for RAM tests, ROM test, bus tests, etc. I have a 16500c with 16505a and the 8086/8088 pod. Just need to find the software on the net and learn to use it :o) But for me it is the last measure. The setup time is huge and I'm busy finishing a project I gotta show this week :oP I'd like to find a faster answer :) > I don't know anything about the D3625A PROMs, but one thing that might > be handy is to make a pin-swabber socket. It's easy for JEDEC or > near-JEDEC parts, a bit more work for oddball parts. The idea is to > provide a socket for a 2K or 4K EPROM and stuff in a 2716 or 2732 > which should work fine with your Beeprog. Of course if you have a ROM > emulator, that's even easier to work with. Reading odd EPROMs is a > lot easier than writing them, so the trick here is to fit in standard > EPROMs to make it easy to put your own code on the machine. This is the first thing I thougth. But as I said, I was looking for a quickie. It will take some time I cannot invest today :( > The idea is to be able to write some very simple "blink the LED"-type > programs with a small handful of instructions and watch for success > and make the programs incrementally more sophisticated so you can > first be certain that the bus and ROM work, then RAM, then I/O chips, > etc. In the early stages, you can use/make a simple logic probe or > just use an oscilloscope to watch for the "output" of your program. > Later, you would be able to spit out text via your UART, once you know > more things are working. I have an eprom emulator, but not a 16 bit one :o( Thanks anyway for the tips...I think I'll shelf the board, and come back later :o) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 13:30:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:30:29 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 05:56 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Nice! These are cool boards. I have an SDK-85, SDK-86, and >> (unbuilt) SDK-51. I'd love to get the 8080 version, but they are >> pretty scarce. > > There is a site with the boards redrawn, you can roll your own :o) > >> Man that board was dirty when you got it. But better a dirty board >> than no board! > > It is clean now! :oD Look here: > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/19.jpg Nicely done! What kind of displays are they, common anode or common cathode? If you send me the part number or datasheet, I might have replacements here. (I have LOTS of displays) I can put them in your box. > Now I just need to mount the ICs...I'll try to do it later today :o) > >> Is that the corner support of a RepRap Mendel that I see in photo >> #5? ;) > > Yep! This is my RepRap :oD I'm part of reprap-br group, very active > here in Sao Paulo > http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/ Nice! I have a Mendel but have not yet gotten it working. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 13:35:16 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:35:16 -0400 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > We really don't give a shit about whether or not there is justification > for making the unauthorized copies. We ASSUME that there is a valid > ethical legitimate reason. > > The question HERE is the technology, not anybody's personal excuses or > rationalizations. there's nothing illegal about making copies of software you own,at least, not where I live... > Or is merely an EXCUSE? (Such as "maybe Pro-lock PLUS really was secretly > put into production??") no, this has been documented in a few cases.like the protection fails they wipe your data, that has happened also. > So? > We don't need lectures about WHY copy protection needs to be defeated. > THAT is assumed. > > But, it would be easier to just defenestrate them, or wait for them to > suicide like Vault Corpse did. I wish it would happen to all of them > Oh yeah. But I can do things with an Apple][ drive that you can't do with > a 1541. Hell, I can do things on a PC that you can't do with a 1541! > > A dumb device is much more versatile than one with its own controller > built hardwired in the box. by adding a controller to the drive I guess :)if you can make your PC drive without any hardware mods sing "daisy"I'll believe you. Dan. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 13:35:32 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 11:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: >> some of the copy protection could actually damage your equipment over >> time. > THAT calls for more detail. > Some copy protection methods on the Commodore 1541 drive knocked the head repeatedly against a hard stop - over time this would knock the head out of alignment. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 13:40:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:40:04 -0400 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 01:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would be "easy" to start with something like the same kinds of chips > used by a couple different Commodore64 Ethernet adapters - the TCP/IP > end of things is all handled by the chip (CS8900?) and the host just > moves assembled packets to/from the chip via a simple interface. > You'd still have to come up with driver support for each classic > platform you wanted to support, but that's the same no matter where > you go. Even easier is the ENC28J60 from Microchip. It's even available in DIP form, for the SMT-phobics. It interfaces via SPI, which is trivial (but slow) to bit-bang on most any processor. I've used it a few times, it's quite good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 13:57:01 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:57:01 -0200 Subject: networking classic hardware References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> The wizchip toys are better...all the TCP/IP stack is inside the chip, so you can offload the main processor. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > On 10/29/2012 01:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I would be "easy" to start with something like the same kinds of chips >> used by a couple different Commodore64 Ethernet adapters - the TCP/IP >> end of things is all handled by the chip (CS8900?) and the host just >> moves assembled packets to/from the chip via a simple interface. >> You'd still have to come up with driver support for each classic >> platform you wanted to support, but that's the same no matter where >> you go. > > Even easier is the ENC28J60 from Microchip. It's even available in > DIP form, for the SMT-phobics. It interfaces via SPI, which is trivial > (but slow) to bit-bang on most any processor. I've used it a few times, > it's quite good. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 14:07:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> Message-ID: <508ED405.8000802@neurotica.com> Yes, I agree. I've only played with one (an early one) once, and it was impressive. Kinda tough to do DECnet with one of those, though. ;) -Dave On 10/29/2012 02:57 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > The wizchip toys are better...all the TCP/IP stack is inside the > chip, so you can offload the main processor. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 4:40 PM > Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > > >> On 10/29/2012 01:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> I would be "easy" to start with something like the same kinds of chips >>> used by a couple different Commodore64 Ethernet adapters - the TCP/IP >>> end of things is all handled by the chip (CS8900?) and the host just >>> moves assembled packets to/from the chip via a simple interface. >>> You'd still have to come up with driver support for each classic >>> platform you wanted to support, but that's the same no matter where >>> you go. >> >> Even easier is the ENC28J60 from Microchip. It's even available in >> DIP form, for the SMT-phobics. It interfaces via SPI, which is trivial >> (but slow) to bit-bang on most any processor. I've used it a few times, >> it's quite good. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 14:07:58 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:07:58 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 2:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/19.jpg > > Nicely done! What kind of displays are they, common anode or common > cathode? If you send me the part number or datasheet, I might have > replacements here. (I have LOTS of displays) I can put them in your box. >From the top and of the era, they could be MAN72s (as found on the KIM-1). -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 14:52:05 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:52:05 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Nicely done! What kind of displays are they, common anode or common > cathode? If you send me the part number or datasheet, I might have > replacements here. (I have LOTS of displays) I can put them in your box. The ones installed are TIL312... > Nice! I have a Mendel but have not yet gotten it working. what is missing? ;o) BTW, completed board: http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/20.jpg From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 15:06:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:06:13 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 03:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Nicely done! What kind of displays are they, common anode or common >> cathode? If you send me the part number or datasheet, I might have >> replacements here. (I have LOTS of displays) I can put them in your box. > > The ones installed are TIL312... I may have something compatible, I will look. >> Nice! I have a Mendel but have not yet gotten it working. > > what is missing? ;o) I've yet to build the extruder head. The electronics I have are considered to be pretty old now; I may just replace them before my first power-up. The horrid design of the electronics in the RepRap world is really surprising to me. > BTW, completed board: > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/20.jpg Very nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 15:17:22 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:17:22 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 03:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Nicely done! What kind of displays are they, common anode or common >>> cathode? If you send me the part number or datasheet, I might have >>> replacements here. (I have LOTS of displays) I can put them in your box. >> >> The ones installed are TIL312... > > I may have something compatible, I will look. If you don't, they aren't expensive... http://www.surplus-electronics-sales.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=248 (at least not compared to shipping to Brazil!) >>> Nice! I have a Mendel but have not yet gotten it working. > > I've yet to build the extruder head. The electronics I have are > considered to be pretty old now; I may just replace them before my first > power-up. The current standard is some variant of RAMPS - an Arduino Mega plus a shield with Pololu stepper controllers mounted on the top. There are many ways to do it. > The horrid design of the electronics in the RepRap world is really > surprising to me. Lots of enthusiastic amateurs (a category I include myself in), so some of the electronics have gone through more than one design-build-explode-redesign cycle, especially when it comes to choosing and heat-sinking MOSFETs that drive fans and heating elements. I've repaired a few things for myself and others that should never have broken except for unwise design choices (insufficient trace weight for current demands, inopportune placement of power and ground leads that make PSU short circuits more likely to occur, poor choices of connector ratings, etc) As a professional, I have reviewed circuit layouts and such, but they were created by others who are more qualified to perform proper thermal and power requirement calculations (or even just adequate over-engineering). I've dabbled but it's all still stuff I've just picked up. That said, I look at some of the electronics out there and alternate between shaking my head and just shuddering in horror. They do get better, but usually after something proves to really need improvement. The stuff that mostly just works doesn't have much cause to be changed. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:30:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029131053.X75524@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > there's nothing illegal about making copies of software you own,at > least, not where I live... We really don't give a shit about whether or not there is justification for making the unauthorized copies. We ASSUME that there is a valid ethical legitimate reason. The question HERE is the technology, not anybody's personal excuses or rationalizations. Do you not understand that I said "unauthorized"?; I did not say "illegal" THAT is not relevant to US. We really DON'T CARE. We were/are discussing the Option board for its flux-transition capabilities for looking at disks of other formats. We weren't, other than mentioning how it was MARKETED, discusiing, nor interested in its very impressive piracy capabilities, nor in ANY discussion of why it is "justifiable"! OTOH, discussion of the TECHNICAL aspects (NOT which programs could copy them!) of HOW protection schemes were implemented can be interesting. We discussed HOW "scratched disk" schemes, such as Pro-Lock's "Laser fingerprint" were implemented. > > Or is merely an EXCUSE? (Such as "maybe Pro-lock PLUS really was secretly > > put into production??") > no, this has been documented in a few cases.like the protection fails > they wipe your data, that has happened also. citation! There has been a lot of FOAF crap about that, BLAMING the copy protection for any unexplained problems that ocurred. THIS group is technical enough to deal with HOW did it damge the data? > > But, it would be easier to just defenestrate them, or wait for them to > > suicide like Vault Corpse did. > I wish it would happen to all of them That much, we agree on. > > Oh yeah. But I can do things with an Apple][ drive that you can't do with > > a 1541. Hell, I can do things on a PC that you can't do with a 1541! > > A dumb device is much more versatile than one with its own controller > > built hardwired in the box. > > by adding a controller to the drive I guess :)if you can make your PC > drive without any hardware mods sing "daisy"I'll believe you. When you can make a 1541 read MFM, then I'll believe you. Which is more important to YOU to accomplish? With altering the controller, NOT THE DRIVE, I can read FM, MFM, GCR easily with the PC drive. I don't have the ability to use a different controller in a 1541. (Although some OTHER drives that could be connected to a C64 were a little more versatile) But separate controller and drive is more easily modified for OUR purposes, such as a few jumpers on a 5150 FDC to use an 8" drive, and nothing but cabling to connect an 8" drive to a 5170. I happen to LIKE the way the C64 did disk I/O. I spent some time with an IEEE-488 board and an MSR drive! Different? Yes. Good? Yes. Better? Ford V Chevy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 15:32:07 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? Message-ID: <1351542727.25806.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> everytime you formatted a disk it would knock the heads to insure it was placed at track zero. ------------------------------ On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 11:35 AM PDT geneb wrote: >On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> some of the copy protection could actually damage your equipment over >> time. >> THAT calls for more detail. >> >Some copy protection methods on the Commodore 1541 drive knocked the head repeatedly against a hard stop - over time this would knock the head out of alignment. > >g. > >-- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > >ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:34:21 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:34:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > The horrid design of the electronics in the RepRap world is really > surprising to me. > So show 'em how it's done! :) The Rostock Max I ordered will be coming with the RAMBo electronics. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:35:47 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who > make tintypes. or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 15:38:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029133708.T75524@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > One thing I like about film however is that it's great for learning, you > screw up you're out money. You're MEAN! You must be a professor! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 29 15:41:02 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 21:41:02 +0100 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <508ED405.8000802@neurotica.com> References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> <508ED405.8000802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121029214102.824ae45e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:07:49 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: [WIZnet Ethernet chip, that does TCP/IP in "hardware"] > Kinda tough to do DECnet with one of those, though. ;) They have a "raw" packet mode where you can send raw packets at the IP or MAC level at your choice. There are several break out / eval boards out there with a WIZnet chip, magnetics, ... You can interface them via ISP or a 8 bit MCU bus interface. Should be trivial to add them e.g. to a C64 expansion port with minimal glue logic. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Oct 29 15:44:17 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121029131053.X75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201210292044.QAA02693@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Do you not understand that I said "unauthorized"?; I did not say > "illegal" > THAT is not relevant to US. We really DON'T CARE. If your "THAT" is "illegal", then at least some of us _do_ care. I for one care whether a particular copy-making is legal or not. Of course, just because something can be used to perform illegal actions doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the thing, any more than a hammer should be illegal just because you can bash out someone's brains with it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 15:50:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:50:49 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508EEC29.1010104@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 04:34 PM, geneb wrote: >> The horrid design of the electronics in the RepRap world is really >> surprising to me. >> > So show 'em how it's done! :) The Rostock Max I ordered will be coming > with the RAMBo electronics. I thought about that at one time, about a year ago, but then I noticed four or five other projects to do the same. I don't know if any of them ever panned out. Right now I'm concentrating on income-generating projects. I don't think doing yet another RepRap controller would make me much money. (if I'm wrong about that, I'd consider it!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 16:02:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:02:42 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> On 10/29/2012 01:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who >> make tintypes. > > or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! I've wondered if anyone makes daguerreotypes nowadays. The thought of boiling mercury for developing might put some people off. (It's also akin to the way silverplating was done before electroplating--coat the object with an amalgam of silver then boil the mercury off. The lives of the workers so employed were apparently noticeably shorter than the average worker.) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 16:18:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:18:29 -0400 Subject: networking classic hardware In-Reply-To: <20121029214102.824ae45e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> <508ED405.8000802@neurotica.com> <20121029214102.824ae45e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <508EF2A5.3050006@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 04:41 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:07:49 -0400 > Dave McGuire wrote: > > [WIZnet Ethernet chip, that does TCP/IP in "hardware"] >> Kinda tough to do DECnet with one of those, though. ;) > They have a "raw" packet mode where you can send raw packets at the IP > or MAC level at your choice. I didn't know that! Nice!! > There are several break out / eval boards > out there with a WIZnet chip, magnetics, ... You can interface them via > ISP or a 8 bit MCU bus interface. Should be trivial to add them e.g. to > a C64 expansion port with minimal glue logic. I've got one of the early ones, W3100-based I think. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 16:20:20 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:20:20 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 1:35 PM -0700 10/29/12, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who >> make tintypes. > >or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! It would be interesting to know which is harder to find... I know at least two Tintype photographers, and I have a kit in the closet for making them. I also have at least two CP/M capable systems in the garage, neither of which has been booted in well over a decade. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 16:22:38 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:22:38 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029133708.T75524@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121029133708.T75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 1:38 PM -0700 10/29/12, Fred Cisin wrote: >On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Christopher Satterfield wrote: >> One thing I like about film however is that it's great for learning, you >> screw up you're out money. > >You're MEAN! You must be a professor! I find that manual film cameras and a decent digital DSLR (or rangefinder) can do an excellent job of complementing each other to improve your photographic skills. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 16:25:22 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:25:22 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide Message-ID: Does anyone have this? http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From db at db.net Mon Oct 29 16:31:58 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:31:58 -0500 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20121029213158.GA46537@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 02:02:42PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/29/2012 01:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who > >> make tintypes. > > > > or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! > > I've wondered if anyone makes daguerreotypes nowadays. The thought of > boiling mercury for developing might put some people off. Yes. The U.S civil war re-enactment folks do. I bet I know someone on this list who does it. ;-) - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From db at db.net Mon Oct 29 16:34:55 2012 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:34:55 -0500 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029133708.T75524@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121029133708.T75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029213455.GB46537@night.db.net> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 01:38:21PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > > One thing I like about film however is that it's great for learning, you > > screw up you're out money. > > You're MEAN! You must be a professor! There is too much of the spray and shoot going around with digital. On the other hand, I no longer get upset when someone walks into a shot. I started on film years ago. I wish I could find my old Brownie so I could shoot a roll for nostalgia. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 16:37:37 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:37:37 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> Message-ID: At 2:02 PM -0700 10/29/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I've wondered if anyone makes daguerreotypes nowadays. The thought >of boiling mercury for developing might put some people off. > >(It's also akin to the way silverplating was done before >electroplating--coat the object with an amalgam of silver then boil >the mercury off. The lives of the workers so employed were >apparently noticeably shorter than the average worker.) > >--Chuck Yes. Name an old process, and I can find someone doing it without too much effort. Though they also tend to have tweaked the processes such that they're safer. Though I believe daguerreotype's are one of the least safe. Good ventilation and safety measures are a must! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 16:46:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <201210292044.QAA02693@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201210292044.QAA02693@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121029143554.X77689@shell.lmi.net> > > Do you not understand that I said "unauthorized"?; I did not say > > "illegal" > > THAT is not relevant to US. We really DON'T CARE. On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote: > If your "THAT" is "illegal", then at least some of us _do_ care. I for > one care whether a particular copy-making is legal or not. Not quite/ "THAT" was arguments about legality/ethics of copy-protection. We DO care, but don't want this list as a venue for an off-topic argument that will NEVER end. "piracy" software and devices are necessary for making legal unauthorized copies. > Of course, just because something can be used to perform illegal > actions doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the thing, any more > than a hammer should be illegal just because you can bash out someone's > brains with it. . . . or walk down the street at night carrying a pry-bar. In the Sony V MGM(?) lawsuit, the court held that that technology could not be barred ig it was "capableof sunbstantial noninfringing use". Even though 99.99% of all VCR usage was making copies, a Betamax COULD be used for home porno, birthdays, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 16:48:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029144711.N77689@shell.lmi.net> > >> I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who > >> make tintypes. > >or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! > It would be interesting to know which is harder to find... I know at > least two Tintype photographers, and I have a kit in the closet for > making them. curious about what's in a kit for making Tintype photographers From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 16:49:40 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:49:40 -0400 Subject: RISC OS for Raspberry Pi released In-Reply-To: References: <201210291510.q9TFACoV23330918@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:10 AM -0700 10/29/12, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >> I just downloaded it for my own Rpi. Always wanted a RISC OS box, but >> Archies are hard to come by in the USA. > > > I've always wanted one as well as RISC OS sounds interesting, so this might > actually convince me to purchase a Raspberry Pi! Unfortunately the > riscosopen site seems to be down at the moment. Here is my page on it, with links to the download link of the image. The official site is down, been down since yesterday it looks like. http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-os.html It is in spanish, but the links are there (plus a google translate dropdown on the right). Plus the dd command to make the SD card. Well, obviously you'll have to adjust the of= based on your device. Last link at the bottom is to the programmer's documentation and the basic documentation and stuff like that. And some screenshots of the box booting. You dont even have time to count to 10 that the desktop is ready to use, not overclocked (700MHz, can run at 1GHz) and with a slow 2GB card. I'll put a sandisk extreme in next. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 16:59:35 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 14:59:35 -0700 Subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay) In-Reply-To: <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> Message-ID: <508EFC47.2050002@bitsavers.org> On 10/27/12 10:13 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division (part of Singer 1968-1988). > What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 16:53:37 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:53:37 -0200 Subject: networking classic hardware References: <201210262222.SAA14688@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <1351372807.89449.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508ECD84.4070308@neurotica.com> <66EA19456097415DA5E70D51E5FFF609@tababook> <508ED405.8000802@neurotica.com> <20121029214102.824ae45e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <508EF2A5.3050006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8954F0C421DC4B2588F66BBEC094EF69@tababook> Get the newer, red ones. Now you can use SPI! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 7:18 PM Subject: Re: networking classic hardware > On 10/29/2012 04:41 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:07:49 -0400 >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> [WIZnet Ethernet chip, that does TCP/IP in "hardware"] >>> Kinda tough to do DECnet with one of those, though. ;) >> They have a "raw" packet mode where you can send raw packets at the IP >> or MAC level at your choice. > > I didn't know that! Nice!! > >> There are several break out / eval boards >> out there with a WIZnet chip, magnetics, ... You can interface them via >> ISP or a 8 bit MCU bus interface. Should be trivial to add them e.g. to >> a C64 expansion port with minimal glue logic. > > I've got one of the early ones, W3100-based I think. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 17:07:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:07:56 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 05:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have this? > http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 > > It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself > intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ryan at hack.net Mon Oct 29 17:21:02 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan Brooks) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:21:02 -0500 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <508EEEF2.1000703@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:37 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 2:02 PM -0700 10/29/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've wondered if anyone makes daguerreotypes nowadays. The thought >> of boiling mercury for developing might put some people off. >> >> (It's also akin to the way silverplating was done before >> electroplating--coat the object with an amalgam of silver then boil >> the mercury off. The lives of the workers so employed were >> apparently noticeably shorter than the average worker.) >> >> --Chuck > > Yes. Name an old process, and I can find someone doing it without > too much effort. Though they also tend to have tweaked the processes > such that they're safer. Though I believe daguerreotype's are one of > the least safe. Good ventilation and safety measures are a must! > > Zane > > Palladium printer checking in. -Ryan Brooks From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 17:28:18 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:28:18 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121029144711.N77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <20121029144711.N77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > > >> I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who >> >> make tintypes. >> >or EVEN people who run CP/M!!! >> It would be interesting to know which is harder to find... I know at >> least two Tintype photographers, and I have a kit in the closet for >> making them. > >curious about what's in a kit for making Tintype photographers It's probably easiest just to give you the link... http://www.rockaloid.com/products.html#tintype Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 17:39:55 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:39:55 -0700 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: , <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de>, <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook>, <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com>, , <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com>, , <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com ---snip---> > Lots of enthusiastic amateurs (a category I include myself in), so > some of the electronics have gone through more than one > design-build-explode-redesign cycle, especially when it comes to > choosing and heat-sinking MOSFETs that drive fans and heating > elements. I've repaired a few things for myself and others that > should never have broken except for unwise design choices > (insufficient trace weight for current demands, inopportune placement > of power and ground leads that make PSU short circuits more likely to > occur, poor choices of connector ratings, etc) > > As a professional, I have reviewed circuit layouts and such, but they > were created by others who are more qualified to perform proper > thermal and power requirement calculations (or even just adequate > over-engineering). I've dabbled but it's all still stuff I've just > picked up. That said, I look at some of the electronics out there and > alternate between shaking my head and just shuddering in horror. They > do get better, but usually after something proves to really need > improvement. The stuff that mostly just works doesn't have much cause > to be changed. > > -ethan Hi Airflow and muffin fans have always got me.A simple test with a piece of tissue paper on the end of a stickwould often show how little most understand about airflow.Dwight From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 17:53:18 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: spare rom sockets... Message-ID: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 14:38:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:38:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121028141643.W33501@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 28, 12 02:26:07 pm Message-ID: > When I was working on cars, an extremely mischievous cow- > orker put one of my large bulbs in my drop-light. But, we I see... > called a truce before I got around to retaliation by using > flash powder. (which is now hard to find!) At the HPCC conference over the lst couple of days I was demonstrting soem classic hardware (an HP9100B + HP9125A plotter on Saturday, an HP9820 and HP9830, both with homebrew EPROM modules on Sunday). I told the audience that I had no objections to my machines being photographed using any equipment apart from flashpowder. I did not want MgO over everyhtin... And yes, my friends are exactly the sort of people to have a flashpan, etc. Not that they would want ot damage old HP machines... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:10:11 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:10:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121028170655.R33501@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 28, 12 05:16:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any realistic > > benefits to film these days considering the expense? Personally the best > > film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. > > A digital camera is better suited for YOU. But as you said, polaroid backs were avaialbe for most large-format and medium format cameras... > > > When I run out of 55P/N, it may be a while before I use my Linhof again. Pity it's no lonfer made. I rememebr putting the negative in sodium sulphite to neutalise the alkaline developer jelly and then drying it. > When I can find a TINY 12MP digital camera cheap, then I'll find new homes > for my Tessina, Minox, Minolta 16. I won't. The older Minoxes are works of art themselves. Like mechanical watches. I'll keep mine for that alone. and my colelction of 16mm Minoltas. And my Yashica 16. And my Narciss -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:11:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:11:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <508DCB98.9040105@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 29, 12 00:19:36 am Message-ID: > > On 28/10/2012 20:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? > > The names of the companies who made the shutters those connectors > appeared on, of course :-) Except I think the second one is actually Exactly. For the uninitiated, it's 'Prontor-Compur'. > the name of their famous shutter product rather than the parent company. YEs. The COmpur was developed from an earlier shutter called a 'Compound' IIRC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 14:44:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:44:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 28, 12 03:41:12 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > > therefore whats needed is a piece of ribbon cable or mort modern 3.5 > > only floppy cable, iow dual inline connectors at opposite ends, and a > > card edge in between? > > Maybe. > > The original design called for two cables, to "input" through one "port" > and "output" through the other. Although they were interchangeable, they > may or may not have actually been in parallel. I instaleld a version 2 -- the one with the ASIC -- for somebody many years ago. It had the conenctors as you describe, and I seem to rememebrs a couple of jumpers that you had to set depending on which connector when to the controller and which to the drive (the 'manual' confusing referd tho it as XT and AT settings, of course the XT-clone I was puttign it in had a header plug not a cerd edge on the controller, so it used AT-style cabling, which is what confused us for a bit). Anyway, from tracing the tracks on the board, ti appeared that these jumpers formed a reversiong switch. One signal (perhaps WD?) was intercepted by the board, tjhe jumpers swithcd and input and ouptu pin on the ASIC to the correct connectors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:13:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:13:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 28, 12 05:22:18 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Photographic flash on newer (1950s and above) cameras used > > > a tiny coaxial connector called "PC". But the OTHER end, > > Trivia quesiton : What does PC stand for here? > > I don't know. You do know (see my other reply...) > Obviously, right here, it means 5150 Maybe. Or maybe the register that points to the next instruction to be executed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 14:55:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:55:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 28, 12 04:28:41 pm Message-ID: > Thanks Tony! I just ordered a copy, and I'll have it on Wednesday. > I'm really surprised the 1999 edition has a Commodore 64 Shutter > Tester. That's pretty cool, as at that point the C64 was 17 years > old. > > If the weather is as bad next weekend as it is this weekend, I might > start building it. I figure it will be 'good enough' for the antique > shutter for my 8x10 lens. It will be. There's almost nothing to builed, just an NPN phototrasistoe wired to 2 pins of the joyseick port (I think it's port B, but it's in the book). Then type in the program (it has some lines of DATA that are POKEd into memory, I assume a machien code program) , save it (!) and run it. > I figure I'll start slowly with the Tomosy books. Then maybe a few > specific books. THat's what I did. I read the first 4 Tomosey books (the non-brand-specific ones) and started workign o n'junk' cameras. I then read the 2 brand-specific books. But when I have an expensive, complex, cmera to work on, I try to get the mnufacturer's manual as well. > When I bought it I didn't know any better, it was the first lens, for > the first camera I bought, a Nikon FM2. I travelled the world with > it and an ancient 135mm f/2.8 that was converted to AI. Coincidence! I have a non-AI 135mm that I must have a go at converting. I have an AI one too, but when I saw the non-AI one for a really good price, I bought it to have a go at converting. Of course you can no logner get the conversion kit, so it's a matter ot attacking the aperture ring with an end mill... > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:22:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:22:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Christopher Satterfield" at Oct 28, 12 06:32:02 pm Message-ID: > > While I still have film cameras around I find it hard to find any film > locally anymore. I even had trouble finding something as simple as a I don't know where you are, but 35mm film is still very easy t ofind. !20 is a bit harder, 5*4 sheet film is harder still (but by no means impossible), antything esle is 'fun' (and may involve slicing down film and repsooling it in a darkroom). > the newest a Canon EOS 300 (Rebel 2000 to anyone here in the US). The > advantage to the newest one is it uses the EF lenses which are still > produced today. One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on my F or F2 bodies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:02:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:02:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Chris Tofu" at Oct 28, 12 04:55:18 pm Message-ID: > > > I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any > realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? > Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. > Is there any realisit benefit to using a classic computer? Is there any realsitic benefit to driving a vintage car. Is there any realistic benefit to painint a picture (rather than taking a photograph). The answer in all cases is IMHO the same. YES. People enjoy doing those thigns. Ans that is sufficient reason for doign them (prvided they don't seriously affect others, which none of those do). There are actualyl some benefits to film, Medium format, and especially large format is a higher resolution than any digital camera that I've seen. I've nto seen a digital camera wit hthe wort of movements you get on a large format camera -- yes, you can fudge the image on a computer, but I prefer to get it right at the start. Monochrome film, in particular, has a much longer life than any digital media, and it's certainly a lot easier to virew or print a film negative than a digitial file stored in a long-forgotten format on a long-forgotten type of medium (as an aside, I am gettign fed up by the number of people who tell me that nobody cna read 5.25" disks any more...) The other advnatage _is_ the expense of film. You are careful with it. You spend time setting up the photogrpah (if it's a static subject, which jhust aobtu everything I take is). YUou look at diferernt viewpoints. With digital a lot of people jsut shoot a lot of picutres in the hope that one will be good. Often they do get a good picture liek that, but they don;t know why. Of course you can be careful with digital photography too, but most aren't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:30:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:30:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Oct 28, 12 10:03:14 pm Message-ID: > > canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:31:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:31:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Oct 28, 12 10:03:14 pm Message-ID: > > canon F1 is is the king of the 35mm world as far as i can tell > Strting holy wars is rarely a good idea... Firstly, not all 35m mcameras are SLRs There are plenty of separate-viewfidner models, with or without coupled rangefidners. There have even been TLRs Since differnet types of cameras have particualr advantages in certain applicatiosn, it is silly to sugest athat an SLR -- any SLR -- must be the best camera for all situations. Seondly, the Coanon F1 is a a good camera, sure. But not everybody prefers it ot all otehr mopdels. I personally prefer Nikon SLRs. It's a personal thing. I can't justify it really. But to argue which is 'best' gets a pointless as arguing wether the C64 is better than an Atarit 800, or wahtever the old-time flamewars are... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 15:33:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <508DFFB8.1000409@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 28, 12 09:02:00 pm Message-ID: > > "Dell is the king of the PC world?" > > I guess my Nikon F and Tony's Leica are just so much chopped liver, then. And awaht about my Nikon F? FWIW, I recently bought a more modern camera. Not a modern camera, of course. A Nikon F2. Clasisc Nikons are very well engineered :-) -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 18:06:14 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:06:14 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 6:07 PM -0400 10/29/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 10/29/2012 05:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone have this? >> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >> >> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > > You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) > > -Dave I blame Tony! ;-) He's already gotten me to buy one book for a project for my Commodore 64, and I've found a similar project for the Apple II. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 18:18:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:18:16 -0400 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508F0EB8.90003@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 06:53 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... I think they're decoded for 2764s, aren't they? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wackyvorlon at me.com Mon Oct 29 18:21:08 2012 From: wackyvorlon at me.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:21:08 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> Message-ID: <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film grain. I even searched it for the word grain. How on earth can you write an article about the relative resolution of film without a word regarding grain?! Sent from my iPhone On 2012-10-29, at 12:04 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 08:36:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 3:44 PM +0100 10/29/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>> Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still >>> photography: >> >> Referencing Ken Rockwell is another good way to start a flame war. >> It is disturbing how many people think he's a credible source. >> Though sometimes he is the easiest way to get basic info. >> >> Zane > > I'm glad you said it and not me. It needed saying. > >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > > Oh why not. > > These are some of my shots, mostly snaps. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/dyanora/ > > >> | My Photography Website | >> | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 18:23:50 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <20121029144711.N77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029162118.C77689@shell.lmi.net> > >> It would be interesting to know which is harder to find... I know at > >> least two Tintype photographers, and I have a kit in the closet for > >> making them. > >curious about what's in a kit for making Tintype photographers On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It's probably easiest just to give you the link... > http://www.rockaloid.com/products.html#tintype That looks like FUN! 'course that's for making tintypes, not for making tintype photographers, . . . (starts with someting similar to, "care to come up and see my etchings?. . . ") From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 18:27:48 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121029162446.V77689@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted > to read off the contents to a disk file... Depends. 5150, 5160, GENERIC 5160 clones, 5170?, thinkpad?, PS/2? ROMs, or maybe PROMs Are there ANY EPROMs with the right pinout? My generic 5160 clones used 2764? EPROMs From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Mon Oct 29 18:29:07 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:29:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT fitting diverse lenses to ccd/cmos camera elements Message-ID: <1351553347.10842.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I have a perfectly nice Nikon 12mpix, so its not on account of being cheap, though I am, and proud, and cheap people are the SOTE. But if I were interested in salvaging a smallish zoom lense and fitting it to this godawful Vivitar, just for fun, it came with with what I think is called a barrel lense, which is threaded, what specs can I presume to be suitable? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 18:38:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121029163432.R77689@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I run out of 55P/N, it may be a while before I use my Linhof again. > Pity it's no lonfer made. I rememebr putting the negative in sodium > sulphite to neutalise the alkaline developer jelly and then drying it. For a wedding several days away from supplies, I used apple cider vinegar (from an unsuccessful attempt to make hard cider) as a stop bath, and then commerical Kodak fixer (Sodium Thiosulphate?) when I got back to town. Giving the mother of the bride prints AT the reception takes a lot of the pressure off! > I won't. The older Minoxes are works of art themselves. Like mechanical > watches. I'll keep mine for that alone. and my colelction of 16mm > Minoltas. And my Yashica 16. And my Narciss no Tessina? You would love it! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 18:41:14 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121029164008.I77689@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I instaleld a version 2 -- the one with the ASIC -- for somebody many > years ago. It had the conenctors as you describe, and I seem to rememebrs > a couple of jumpers that you had to set depending on which connector when > to the controller and which to the drive (the 'manual' confusing referd > tho it as XT and AT settings, of course the XT-clone I was puttign it in > had a header plug not a cerd edge on the controller, so it used AT-style > cabling, which is what confused us for a bit). Anyway, from tracing the > tracks on the board, ti appeared that these jumpers formed a reversiong > switch. One signal (perhaps WD?) was intercepted by the board, tjhe > jumpers swithcd and input and ouptu pin on the ASIC to the correct > connectors. That answers BOTH what the inadequately labelled/documented switch was for, AND whether it could be installed to the middle of an unbroken floppy cable (NO.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 18:49:30 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net> <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > Some copy protection methods on the Commodore 1541 drive knocked the head > repeatedly against a hard stop - over time this would knock the head out > of alignment. Ah HA! BREAK ITSELF under software command is something that is harder to do on a PC drive. (Some drives are harder to break than some others! It was relatively easy to get the cam follower out of place on an SA400/Apple Disk][ ) From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 18:53:04 2012 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:53:04 -0500 Subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay) In-Reply-To: <508EFC47.2050002@bitsavers.org> References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> <508EFC47.2050002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division >> (part of Singer 1968-1988). >> > > What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual. I was able to score a few odd Singer docs on ebay recently. They are "in the queue," meaning they'll be online sometime in the next 2-3 years :) j From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 19:08:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:08:29 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 04:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The current standard is some variant of RAMPS - an Arduino Mega plus a > shield with Pololu stepper controllers mounted on the top. There are > many ways to do it. That'll work with my existing hardware? > As a professional, I have reviewed circuit layouts and such, but they > were created by others who are more qualified to perform proper > thermal and power requirement calculations (or even just adequate > over-engineering). I've dabbled but it's all still stuff I've just > picked up. That said, I look at some of the electronics out there and > alternate between shaking my head and just shuddering in horror. They > do get better, but usually after something proves to really need > improvement. The stuff that mostly just works doesn't have much cause > to be changed. My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a stepper controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) I am going to scrap the existing electronics and start that part afresh. That is, unless I end up selling the whole thing as-is and buying a more "turnkey" system. I'm not interested in hacking RepRaps (except maybe to design grown-up electronics), I want 3D printing capability as a tool. (wanna buy a laser-cut Mendel? ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 19:00:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:00:59 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: , <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com>, <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de>, <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook>, <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com>, , <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com>, , <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <55D865ECEFBC4332840BCCBBD331FE80@tababook> Er...may we come back to the main subject :o) Since I cannot find BPROMs nor see if mine works, I created a 2716-to-BPROM adapter. Plug and PRAY :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: RE: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com ---snip---> > Lots of enthusiastic amateurs (a category I include myself in), so > some of the electronics have gone through more than one > design-build-explode-redesign cycle, especially when it comes to > choosing and heat-sinking MOSFETs that drive fans and heating > elements. I've repaired a few things for myself and others that > should never have broken except for unwise design choices > (insufficient trace weight for current demands, inopportune placement > of power and ground leads that make PSU short circuits more likely to > occur, poor choices of connector ratings, etc) > > As a professional, I have reviewed circuit layouts and such, but they > were created by others who are more qualified to perform proper > thermal and power requirement calculations (or even just adequate > over-engineering). I've dabbled but it's all still stuff I've just > picked up. That said, I look at some of the electronics out there and > alternate between shaking my head and just shuddering in horror. They > do get better, but usually after something proves to really need > improvement. The stuff that mostly just works doesn't have much cause > to be changed. > > -ethan Hi Airflow and muffin fans have always got me.A simple test with a piece of tissue paper on the end of a stickwould often show how little most understand about airflow.Dwight = From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 19:06:08 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:06:08 -0200 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic References: Message-ID: > I don't know where you are, but 35mm film is still very easy t ofind. !20 > is a bit harder, 5*4 sheet film is harder still (but by no means > impossible), antything esle is 'fun' (and may involve slicing down film > and repsooling it in a darkroom). Try that in Brazil...Will I die without shooting and developing a 120 roll? :o( > One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is > essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if > you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or > even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. > Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on > my F or F2 bodies. So you say I can get a very old nikon, and a brand new one and exchange lenses (obviously without autofocus, et al)??? :oO VERY nice to know that :o) I use a Lumix FZ35, a very capable superzoom camera. I even got first place in a local photo concourse... From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Oct 29 19:22:18 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:22:18 +0000 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DCDD9.2020108@dunnington.plus.com> <20121029010554.GA8633@night.db.net> Message-ID: <508F1DBA.8090907@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/10/2012 01:18, Adrian Stoness wrote: > proud owner of a pentax 6x7 > rolleicord > and a zorki Several Pentax 35mm SLRs, a Zenit (my first SLR, clunky but a nice lens), a Minolta, two Mamiya 645s, assorted lenses, various film backs including a Polaroid back for the Mamiyas. Now all I need is a source of Polaroid film for that. I'd like to own a 5"x4" monorail again, but they always seem to be too expensive for the amount of use I'd give it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jws at jwsss.com Mon Oct 29 19:42:09 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:42:09 -0700 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508F2261.40906@jwsss.com> On 10/29/2012 3:53 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... > > Chris, the ones I think were in the clones were 2764's. I only went from IBM PC to clone and the proms they had though compatible with the eproms didn't work in clone boards, so you needed a prom / eprom part reader to get the data and then write the eprom. Looks like 64k X 8, which are 2764's http://www.retroarchive.org/dos/docs/ibm5160techref.pdf The PC / AT had different proms and they were 8 bit parts but on a 16 bit bus, so the bytes were interleaved. I didn't find a tech reference for it in a short search. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 19:46:57 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:46:57 -0700 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121029162118.C77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <508E0E1C.9060008@sydex.com> <20121029133525.F75524@shell.lmi.net> <20121029144711.N77689@shell.lmi.net> <20121029162118.C77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 4:23 PM -0700 10/29/12, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> It would be interesting to know which is harder to find... I know at >> >> least two Tintype photographers, and I have a kit in the closet for >> >> making them. >> >curious about what's in a kit for making Tintype photographers > >On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> It's probably easiest just to give you the link... >> http://www.rockaloid.com/products.html#tintype > >That looks like FUN! > >'course that's for making tintypes, not for making tintype photographers, >. . . (starts with someting similar to, "care to come up and see my >etchings?. . . ") See what happens when I type in a hurry... My big holdup has been getting a holder and finding the time on a sunny day to try it out. IIRC, it won't work in a standard 4x5 film holder, though one could be modified for use. As for etchings... Well, I am researching what it would take to make Photogravure's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 19:49:32 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:49:32 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> Message-ID: You forget he's *THE* Ken Rockwell, the man that can review lenses without ever having touched them. As a Leica user his Leica reviews largely make me want to puke. Zane At 7:21 PM -0400 10/29/12, Paul Anderson wrote: >Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film grain. I >even searched it for the word grain. How on earth can you write an >article about the relative resolution of film without a word >regarding grain?! > >Sent from my iPhone > >On 2012-10-29, at 12:04 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 08:36:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At 3:44 PM +0100 10/29/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>>> Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still >>>> photography: >>> >>> Referencing Ken Rockwell is another good way to start a flame war. >>> It is disturbing how many people think he's a credible source. >>> Though sometimes he is the easiest way to get basic info. >>> >>> Zane >> >> I'm glad you said it and not me. It needed saying. >> >>> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>> | My flickr Photostream | >>> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >> >> Oh why not. >> >> These are some of my shots, mostly snaps. >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/dyanora/ >> >> >>> | My Photography Website | >>> | http://www.zanesphotography.com | >> >> Diane >> -- >> - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db >> Nowadays tar can compress using yesterdays latest technologies! -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 29 19:53:57 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: old cameras Message-ID: With this talk about tintypes, I was wondering if anyone had any pointers on where to get an inexpensive 4x5 field camera. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 19:55:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:55:39 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508F258B.8010503@sydex.com> On 10/29/2012 01:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Firstly, not all 35m mcameras are SLRs There are plenty of > separate-viewfidner models, with or without coupled rangefidners. There > have even been TLRs Since differnet types of cameras have particualr > advantages in certain applicatiosn, it is silly to sugest athat an SLR -- > any SLR -- must be the best camera for all situations. Indeed, for many years, the Leica was the amateur's camera in 35mm, with the pros preferring the Zeiss Contax, a beautifully-made camera. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 19:56:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:56:51 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508F25D3.6040008@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 07:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Does anyone have this? >>> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >>> >>> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >>> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >> >> You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) > > I blame Tony! ;-) He's already gotten me to buy one book for a project > for my Commodore 64, and I've found a similar project for the Apple II. You're in deep shit now, my friend. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 29 19:58:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 17:58:24 -0700 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <20121029162446.V77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121029162446.V77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508F2630.5060603@sydex.com> On 10/29/2012 04:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are there ANY EPROMs with the right pinout? If you're talking about the 24-pin 8KB (64Kb) ROMS, I've used the Moto 68765 EPROMs quite successfully. 68766 apparently also works. Both less than easy to find. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Oct 29 20:49:38 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:49:38 -0600 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508F3232.3070906@brouhaha.com> Chris Tofu wrote: > ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... IIRC, the IBM motherboards used 8K*8 24-pin masked ROMs. If so, they *might* be compatible with the MCM68764 and MCM68766, but not much else. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 20:52:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT fitting diverse lenses to ccd/cmos camera elements In-Reply-To: <1351553347.10842.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351553347.10842.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121029182245.T77689@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > I have a perfectly nice Nikon 12mpix, so its not on account of being > cheap, though I am, and proud, and cheap people are the SOTE. But if I > were interested in salvaging a smallish zoom lense and fitting it to > this godawful Vivitar, just for fun, it came with with what I think is > called a barrel lense, which is threaded, what specs can I presume to be > suitable? 1) what distance does the lens need to physically be from the "film"? ("register") 2) What distance is the lense mount on the camera from the "film"? If #2 is greater than #1, it will be quite difficult. If the lens is fairly small diameter, perhaps it can sit back into the camera, with a recessed mount - watch out for needed clearance for mirror in the camera! Or additional optics can be placed between the camera and lens - carefully compare the difference between an adapter for using Canon EOS lenses on Canon FD, verus the adapters for using FD lenses on EOS. One of them needs extra glass in it to compensate for the unwanted "extension", and to degrade the quality of the image. If #1 is greater than #2, then you need to find/buy or MAKE an adapter that fits the camera lens mount and the back of the lens, with the exact correct thickness (any chage in the thickness affects the distance that it focuses to). In general such adapters will permit "manual" mode, but in most cases, they do NOT successfully couple auto-focus, camera control of the diaphragm in the lens, or camera knowledge of the current setting of the aperture. There is an entire category on eBay for lens mount adapters, and the COMMON ones get enough price competition that the cheap ones from China cost almost nothing (I can get adapters to use C-mount (16mm/video) lenses on Sony Nex for less than $5) Or Gotta lathe? Most digital SLRs are too thick. (#2 is way too large). There is very little interchange possible, other than maybe using T-Mount lenses (which MIGHT be what you've got!). The "mirrorless" interchangeable lens digital cameras are thin enough! Micro4/3s and Sony-Nex are thin enough that they can easily use Leica lenses (in manual modes, of course), and even C-mount. The Pentax-Q is the only one thin enough to use D-mount (8mm movie). (Leica screw-mount is especially useful, since that is what more than half of enlarger lenses use, and those are "flat-field" lenses) 3) Is the focal length of use to you? Micro4/3's and Sony-Nex (APS-C) have a CCD that is amller than a 35mm frame, so you get less vignetting and a narrower angle. A 50mm lens on one of them is like a 90mm lens on 35mm. Unfortunately, that leads to ASSSHOLES wanting to use "35mm equivalent" as a unit of measure, sometimes not even wanting to tell you what the actual focal length is! Damn it! I KNOW what a 90mm lens is - it is an extreme wide angle for my Linhof, bordering on a fisheye for my big cammera, a telephoto for my Bolex, etc. For a "normal" lens on my Lumix, I want about 25mm and about 35mm on my Nex. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 21:00:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <508F0EB8.90003@neurotica.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508F0EB8.90003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121029185725.C77689@shell.lmi.net> > > ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you > > wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > I think they're decoded for 2764s, aren't they? I don't think so, but >30 years on unrefreshed wetware dynamic RAM? My generic 5160s took 2764, but I think that the real IBM [5150 and 5160] ROMs were a different pinout than that. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 20:56:56 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:56:56 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> > That'll work with my existing hardware? Sure > My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six > PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a stepper > controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a > poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) :oO Photos, please? > I am going to scrap the existing electronics and start that part > afresh. That is, unless I end up selling the whole thing as-is and > buying a more "turnkey" system. I'm not interested in hacking RepRaps > (except maybe to design grown-up electronics), I want 3D printing > capability as a tool. (wanna buy a laser-cut Mendel? ;)) I'd buy a printerbot. Cheap and useful. A friend of mine got one from USA. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 29 21:06:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:06:15 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508F3617.4020906@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 08:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is >> essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if >> you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or >> even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. >> Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on >> my F or F2 bodies. > > So you say I can get a very old nikon, and a brand new one and > exchange lenses (obviously without autofocus, et al)??? :oO VERY nice to > know that :o) I regularly use lenses from my not-terribly-old N70 (film) on my not-terribly-new D50 (digital) camera. I've used some of my mother's old lenses on my D50. The key there is to make sure the Nikon body that you choose has the in-body screw-drive focus motor, to handle autofocus for early lenses that lack integral focus motors. Of course the purists will poo-poo the use of autofocus, and I do focus manually most of the time (I was raised by a photographer) but for, say, taking pics for eBay auctions, I use autofocus. (sue me) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 21:11:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:11:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121029190406.M77689@shell.lmi.net> > > I don't know where you are, but 35mm film is still very easy t ofind. !20 > > is a bit harder, 5*4 sheet film is harder still (but by no means > > impossible), antything esle is 'fun' (and may involve slicing down film > > and repsooling it in a darkroom). Unfortunately, splicing together pieces of film to make a larger piece is more difficult. On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Try that in Brazil...Will I die without shooting and developing a 120 > roll? :o( Then just shorten a roll of 220 (slightly rarer) > So you say I can get a very old nikon, and a brand new one and exchange > lenses (obviously without autofocus, et al)??? :oO VERY nice to know that > :o) An OLD Nikon. But a VERY old Nikon, such as 'S' uses the came lenses as a Contax rangefinder. Both extremely nice cameras! The Contax is one of the easier cameras for a left-handed friend to use - Was Emmanuel Golberg left handed?? But, in addition to fitting newer Nikons, the early Nikon F lenses can also be relatively easy to adapt to OTHER cameras, since the Nikon body was SO thick. The Mid 1960s 105mm, and the PC ("PERSPECTIVE CONTROL", not "program Counter nor 5150, nor even Prontor) Nikor 28?mm are especially fun and useful. > I use a Lumix FZ35, a very capable superzoom camera. I even got first > place in a local photo concourse... Congratulations, I think From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 29 21:17:45 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:17:45 -0700 Subject: System Ten Manuals (was Re: Another computer scale model set on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <20120624133856.D30125@shell.lmi.net> <20120624161636.S39592@shell.lmi.net> <6CC91636-E304-4A4F-B4D4-86330363E025@gmail.com> <4FE7DCB2.3030205@neurotica.com> <5084D142.4080200@gmail.com> <508B50E9.5040100@sydex.com> <508BB60F.1070201@gmail.com> <508C1654.2020507@sydex.com> <508EFC47.2050002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <508F38C9.2040800@bitsavers.org> On 10/29/12 4:53 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> I'm surprised that Bitsavers has nothing on Singer, or even Link Division >>> (part of Singer 1968-1988). >>> >> >> What I have scanned is now on line, including the service manual. > > I was able to score a few odd Singer docs on ebay recently. They are > "in the queue," meaning they'll be online sometime in the next 2-3 > years :) > I assume they came from the same guy thats been selling off all the rest. Good to know they went to someone on the list. From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 21:33:00 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:33:00 -0400 Subject: wanted: Apollo dn1000 Message-ID: Anybody has or know of a dn1000 for sale or in search of a good home for their dn1000? I'm in North Carolina. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 21:35:28 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:35:28 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop Message-ID: Or at least, as close as one can get to one: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. :) Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 21:46:44 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:46:44 -0400 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 8:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is >> essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if >> you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or >> even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. >> Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on >> my F or F2 bodies. > > > So you say I can get a very old nikon, and a brand new one and exchange > lenses (obviously without autofocus, et al)??? :oO VERY nice to know that > :o) Sometimes older Nikon compatible lenses with electronics get more recent (ie N series on film and D series for digital) cameras confused. You'll have to put tape over the contacts if that is the case, and use in manual mode. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Oct 29 21:50:25 2012 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 02:50:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters Message-ID: <156078389.873295.1351565425118.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> From: Chuck Guzis < cclist at sydex.com > >On 10/28/2012 09:19 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: >> That would probably wet plate photography. People are definitely >> still doing it, and getting some incredibly beautiful results. > >I'll bet that if you search hard enough, you can still find people who >make tintypes. > >--Chuck Tintypes are too new. How about daguerreotypes? http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes Bob From brain at jbrain.com Mon Oct 29 22:04:21 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:04:21 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <508F25D3.6040008@neurotica.com> References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> <508F25D3.6040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <508F43B5.6050007@jbrain.com> On 10/29/2012 7:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 07:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> Does anyone have this? >>>> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >>>> >>>> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >>>> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >>> >>> You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) >> >> I blame Tony! ;-) He's already gotten me to buy one book for a project >> for my Commodore 64, and I've found a similar project for the Apple II. > > You're in deep shit now, my friend. ;) > > -Dave > Well, that is mighty impressive. Kudos to the author and those who purchase the book. Since a kind Apple Enthusiast gave me a IIe and a IIgs at ECCC this Fall, and I know nothing about them, I may need to buy this book... Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From jelynch at stny.rr.com Mon Oct 29 22:08:49 2012 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:08:49 -0400 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <508F2261.40906@jwsss.com> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508F2261.40906@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508F44C1.8020907@stny.rr.com> On 10/29/2012 8:42 PM, jim s wrote: > > On 10/29/2012 3:53 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: >> ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you >> wanted to read off the contents to a disk file... >> >> > Chris, the ones I think were in the clones were 2764's. I only went > from IBM PC to clone and the proms they had though compatible with the > eproms didn't work in clone boards, so you needed a prom / eprom part > reader to get the data and then write the eprom. > > Looks like 64k X 8, which are 2764's > > http://www.retroarchive.org/dos/docs/ibm5160techref.pdf > > The PC / AT had different proms and they were 8 bit parts but on a 16 > bit bus, so the bytes were interleaved. > > I didn't find a tech reference for it in a short search. > > Jim > > My IBM PC clone had extra EPROM sockets that corresponded the "real" IBM PC's ROMs / EPROM holding Basic. This is why the IBM Basic would not run on clones. You certainly could put a correct pin out EPROM in one of the sockets and read it / write its contents to a disk. Nanoman. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 22:17:30 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:17:30 -0700 Subject: OT: old cameras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:53 PM -0700 10/29/12, David Griffith wrote: >With this talk about tintypes, I was wondering if anyone had any >pointers on where to get an inexpensive 4x5 field camera. Instead of a Field Camera (which still have quite a bit of value), your best bet is an old Graflex, or just about any 4x5 rail camera. My Horseman 4x5 rail is absolutely beautiful near mint, and I got it for basically the cost of the 210mm Nikkor that came with it. My favorite store is http://www.bluemooncamera.com/ and I bought both of my 8x10 camera's and my 8x10 lens from them, as well as quite a bit of other gear. They're semi-local, and a great store. You can also check http://www.keh.com, as well as Adorama and B&H Photo. There are others, but I don't have personal experience with them. I'd probably avoid eBay, but at the same time if there are good photo's, it's probably safer than most sources. Oh, and at least around here, they turn up on Craigslist fairly often. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 22:31:45 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:31:45 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:22 PM +0000 10/29/12, Tony Duell wrote: >I don't know where you are, but 35mm film is still very easy t ofind. !20 >is a bit harder, 5*4 sheet film is harder still (but by no means >impossible), antything esle is 'fun' (and may involve slicing down film >and repsooling it in a darkroom). The one British B&W magazine I like seems to have plenty of oddball film advertised in it. It's also to blame for my move to Large Format in 2009. 620 is easy enough, it's either respooled 120, or spools that have had the ends 'shaved'. It's currently possible to get 127, but I'm not sure how much longer, as Efke's machines have broken down and they're getting out of the film business. Some of the truly odd-ball roll film formats can be purchased, but it's not easy. Same with the unusual sheet film sizes, once a year Ilford opens up ordering of special sizes. >One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is >essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if >you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or >even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. >Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on >my F or F2 bodies. The Leica M's are even better. There are only a small handful of Leica Thread Mount and M mount lenses I can't use on my M6 TTL and M9. The new "Leica M" digital (yes, no number) will have an adapter that will let it use R lenses as well. I also have an adapter that allows me to use my Grandfathers Nikon S lenses on my M's, and you can get an adapter to use Contax lenses on them as well. All this is without having to modify the lenses. Of course I also use my Grandparents Nikon SLR lenses on my more modern Nikon's, including my Nikon D300. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 23:00:51 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 21:00:51 -0700 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029190406.M77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121029190406.M77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 7:11 PM -0700 10/29/12, Fred Cisin wrote: >An OLD Nikon. But a VERY old Nikon, such as 'S' uses the came lenses as a >Contax rangefinder. Both extremely nice cameras! The Contax is one of >the easier cameras for a left-handed friend to use - Was Emmanuel Golberg >left handed?? For fast 50mm lenses and >75mm lenses, the Nikon S and Contax Rangefinder lenses are pretty much compatible, but for wide they aren't >But, in addition to fitting newer Nikons, the early Nikon F lenses can >also be relatively easy to adapt to OTHER cameras, since the Nikon body >was SO thick. The Mid 1960s 105mm, and the PC ("PERSPECTIVE CONTROL", >not "program Counter nor 5150, nor even Prontor) Nikor 28?mm are >especially fun and useful. My favorite old Nikkor F lenses are the 135mm f/2.8 and the 55mm f/3.5 Macro. OTOH, the 80-200mm f/4.5 is an absolute dog on my D300 (I haven't had the time to try it on a 35mm film body since I inherited two of the lenses). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 29 23:10:40 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 21:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: from Francois Dion at "Oct 29, 12 10:35:28 pm" Message-ID: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> > Or at least, as close as one can get to one: > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html > > Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. What's the Motorola laptop in question? Is that an Atrix dock? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies. ------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 30 00:31:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:31:03 -0700 Subject: spare rom sockets... In-Reply-To: <20121029162446.V77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351551198.63061.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121029162446.V77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <508F6617.7060106@sydex.com> On 10/29/2012 04:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >> ...on IBM mobos can be used to read what types of eproms? If you wanted >> to read off the contents to a disk file... > > Depends. > 5150, 5160, GENERIC 5160 clones, 5170?, thinkpad?, PS/2? > > ROMs, or maybe PROMs > > Are there ANY EPROMs with the right pinout? > > My generic 5160 clones used 2764? EPROMs Clones were all over the place. Many have extra sockets that take 2764 JEDEC pinouts, some have jumpers to accept 27128 or 27256 and number of extra sockets varies. Some allow you to populate the E0000-EFFFF memory area. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 30 00:34:13 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:34:13 -0700 Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank Message-ID: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> From the Computerworld Sharktank. I think this also the system with the B in the lights as well. Flashback to the mid-1960s, when the Control Data 6600 computer was the fastest thing going, according to this IT pilot fish who remembers it well. "It was about 1 megaFLOPS," says fish. "The operator console, manned 24/7 of course, had two large, circular CRT screens, side-by-side, that almost always displayed operator messages scrolling up the screens. As long as those messages were scrolling, the operator seldom had to pay attention to them. "But the CRTs were actually vector displays, capable of more, under program control. "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens go blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look slowly to the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare straight ahead. Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and go back to scrolling plain text. "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 00:41:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 01:41:27 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Francois Dion wrote: > Or at least, as close as one can get to one: > > http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html > > Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. Which USB and HDMI adapters/cables did you use? I have a dock on the way but I haven't ordered the converter bits yet. Normally, I get things like that from monoprice.com but they don't seem to be well stocked with microUSB and micro-HDMI stuff, at least not the exotic extenders and converters. I think the right things can be ordered from dealextreme.com, but I haven't figured out exactly what to get yet. I know very little about HDMI/DVI video but I'm wondering how hard it would be to make an IOB6120 squirt out something DVI-esque (it normally does VGA out while emulating a terminal for the SBC6120). I've long wanted to make a 12-bit laptop, and this dock might allow for rather a lot of implementation short cuts. -ethan From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 01:31:41 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:31:41 +1100 Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank In-Reply-To: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:34 PM, jim s wrote: > From the Computerworld Sharktank. I think this also the system with the B > in the lights as well. Do you have a link please? I could not find any reference to the B6700 hunting around the Sharktank columns. For those that are interested the "B" appeared during the CPU idle loop and looked like this: http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainframe#TOC-B6700-Display-Panel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 30 01:42:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:42:15 -0700 Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank In-Reply-To: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508F76C7.2020705@sydex.com> On 10/29/2012 10:34 PM, jim s wrote: > "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens go > blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look slowly to > the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare straight ahead. > Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and go back to > scrolling plain text. > > "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." Don't know what this has to do with a Burroughs machine, but the "eyes" were a standard part of every 6000-series CE deadstart tape, as well as other diversions. CEs get bored too... Since the code was available, I'm sure someone EDITLIB-ed this into a deadstart tape. Easy enough to pull this off after that. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Oct 30 01:52:58 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:52:58 -0600 Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank In-Reply-To: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508F794A.704@brouhaha.com> A B6700 is an *entirely* different beast from the described CDC machine. The B6700 is a 48/51-bit tagged stack machine. The CDC 6x00 machines were 60-bit with 12-bit PPUs and the console with two round vector CRTs. From jonas at otter.se Mon Oct 29 17:04:16 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:04:16 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <508EFD60.9040000@otter.se> At 4:55 PM -0700 10/28/12, Chris Tofu wrote: >> >I know Im in for it asking such a question, but are there any >> >realistic benefits to film these days considering the expense? >> >Personally the best film camera Ive ever used was a Polaroid. Benefits? The whole process, the slowness and mediativeness of the process compared to digital, the feel of seeing the negatives, the relaxation of developing the film and making prints, ... Are there any realistic benefits to watercolours or oil paints these days, compared to Adobe Creative Suite or whatever, considering the expense? Why mess around with old, slow, limited classic computers, when a laptop for a few hundred $ will do a thousand times more work, easier and better? From randall.kindig at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 19:28:45 2012 From: randall.kindig at gmail.com (Randall.kindig) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:28:45 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <895D75F9-5E03-4EEC-866A-07B1A208996F@gmail.com> I bought it! It's great! Randy Sent from my iPad On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:25 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Does anyone have this? > http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 > > It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > From francois.dion at gmail.com Mon Oct 29 19:58:45 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 20:58:45 -0400 Subject: RISC OS laptop Message-ID: What do you guys think of my RISC OS ARM laptop? http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html Battery powered ARM 1080p fun. :) Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 30 03:15:18 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 09:15:18 +0100 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal Message-ID: It has been many years since I wrote any VAX-Pascal and I find myself needing to write an AST. I have looked around in various documentation but can't find any examples. The AST I want to write is in response to the completion of a QIO. The QIO call looks like this: Stat := $QIO(0, Channel, IO$_WRITEVBLK, , %IMMED SendCompleted, 0, Buf, Len); And the AST itself looks like this (no body at the moment, just want to make it work first): [ASYNCHRONOUS] PROCEDURE SendCompleted( P : UNSIGNED); BEGIN END; When I run the code though I get a runtime error: %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual address=00000000, PC =000008C1, PSL=03C00000 %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows module name routine name line rel PC abs PC DMC11SEND SENDCOMPLETED 67 00000009 000008C1 801D58F3 801D58F3 0001E893 0001E893 DMC11SEND SEND 77 00000070 00000938 DMC11SEND DMC11SEND 111 00000179 000006BD I am not sure what I have done wrong, anyone know? Thanks Rob From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 30 04:40:04 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 02:40:04 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 story from Sharktank (my mistake) In-Reply-To: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508FA074.7060602@jwsss.com> On 10/29/2012 10:34 PM, jim s wrote: > From the Computerworld Sharktank > > > Flashback to the mid-1960s, when the Control Data 6600 computer was > the fastest thing going, according to this IT pilot fish who remembers > it well. > > "It was about 1 megaFLOPS," says fish. "The operator console, manned > 24/7 of course, had two large, circular CRT screens, side-by-side, > that almost always displayed operator messages scrolling up the > screens. As long as those messages were scrolling, the operator seldom > had to pay attention to them. > > "But the CRTs were actually vector displays, capable of more, under > program control. > > "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens > go blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look > slowly to the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare > straight ahead. Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and > go back to scrolling plain text. > > "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue Oct 30 04:42:07 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 02:42:07 -0700 Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank In-Reply-To: References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <508FA0EF.40203@jwsss.com> On 10/29/2012 11:31 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 4:34 PM, jim s wrote: >> From the Computerworld Sharktank. I think this also the system with the B >> in the lights as well. > Do you have a link please? I could not find any reference to the B6700 > hunting around the Sharktank columns. > > For those that are interested the "B" appeared during the CPU idle > loop and looked like this: > > http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainframe#TOC-B6700-Display-Panel http://blogs.computerworld.com/data-center/21135/remember-only-13-more-shopping-days-left-until From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 05:17:41 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 03:17:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? Message-ID: <1351592261.45956.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> if not will they still w/great difficulty From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 06:02:56 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:02:56 +0100 Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: <1351592261.45956.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351592261.45956.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6668A705-A99A-4415-9DB7-EB774AA5387E@gmail.com> No. On 30 okt. 2012, at 11:17, Chris Tofu wrote: > if not will they still w/great difficulty Of course. .tsooJ -- Wherever you go, there you are. -- Joost van de Griek From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Oct 30 07:10:21 2012 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:10:21 +0000 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic Message-ID: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252373F5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> > Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film > grain. I even searched it for the word grain. How on earth > can you write an article about the relative resolution of film > without a word regarding grain?! That's right. If anyone starts believing that "no grain" is the same as "high resolution" then we end up back in the mushy microdol-X era where every photo is just... blah. I far prefer a nice roll/sheet of Tri-X or HP5 developed in a high-acutance developer that really makes for obvious sharp snappy grain. Oh it's so beautiful. For fans of color... the 1600 color slide films available in the late 80's/early 90's, when push processed a few stops, are amazing. Astoundingly huge and sharp color grain. I love it. Tim. From poc at pocnet.net Tue Oct 30 07:18:54 2012 From: poc at pocnet.net (Schindler Patrik) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:18:54 +0100 Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: <1351592261.45956.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351592261.45956.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4336FD1A-D319-4772-9A6E-659DED746947@pocnet.net> Am 30.10.2012 um 11:17 schrieb Chris Tofu: > if not will they still w/great difficulty The greatest difference is the shape and position of the ports on the backside. You'll have to cut out additional holes. It hurts even thinking about that... ;-) :wq! PoC From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Oct 30 07:36:19 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:36:19 -0400 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: there was a "copier" for the c64 called "cruel copier" once upon a time. whatever you do, don't run it. it's not actually a copier.it's made up to look like one, but it uses every trick in the book to utterly destroy your drive,even little things like disabling the track check and so forth, telling the drive to seek to track 100,which the drive would happily try to do. occasionally making the drive sound like a jet engine,also code from "daisy" and hordes of other things I don't think anyone has actually looked into. suffice it to say, it has been known to wreck drives, even with a single run.that is, if you're stupid enough to actually run the damn thing - I wasn't, but there were people who did. it was put out by a fake company calling itself "magnetic manipulations Inc",which I always thought was a cool name. too bad they didn't do much productive releases,they're only decently useful utility was called SDS (super disk speed) - a fast loader.or I suppose "soft sector format" was another really cool one. there were tons of these little groups/companies doing very cool things. I wish I had gotten one of those "drive mirror" LED track/sector/density displays.... > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 16:49:30 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > > Some copy protection methods on the Commodore 1541 drive knocked the head > > repeatedly against a hard stop - over time this would knock the head out > > of alignment. > > Ah HA! > BREAK ITSELF under software command is something that is harder to do on a > PC drive. (Some drives are harder to break than some others! It was > relatively easy to get the cam follower out of place on an SA400/Apple > Disk][ ) > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 30 07:42:30 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: STOP! was Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252373F5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252373F5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film >> grain. I even searched it for the word grain. How on earth >> can you write an article about the relative resolution of film >> without a word regarding grain?! > > That's right. If anyone starts believing that "no grain" is the same > as "high resolution" then we end up back in the mushy microdol-X era > where every photo is just... blah. When did this list turn in a vintage camera forum? PLEASE TAKE IT TO THE PROPER VENUE! Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rickb at bensene.com Tue Oct 30 08:05:25 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 06:05:25 -0700 Subject: STOP! was Re: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <303A17BD5F8FA34DA45EEC245271AC0B252373F5@JGEX2K10MBX2.wmata.local> Message-ID: > When did this list turn in a vintage camera forum? PLEASE TAKE IT TO THE > PROPER VENUE! > Seconded. Rick Bensene From rickb at bensene.com Tue Oct 30 08:17:52 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 06:17:52 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 story from Sharktank (my mistake) In-Reply-To: <508FA074.7060602@jwsss.com> References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> <508FA074.7060602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > > > "But the CRTs were actually vector displays, capable of more, under > > program control. > > > > "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens > > go blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look > > slowly to the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare > > straight ahead. Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and > > go back to scrolling plain text. > > > > "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." On the Tektronix Cyber 73, running KRONOS, all one needed to do on the console was type X. EYES and it'd run the program. It was a PPU program that temporarily substituted for the PPU code that ran the system status displays. It was a cute "intro" demo when we'd have guests into the data center. The Chess program was a great idle-time (swing shift operations) burner. The displays had the chess board in the left display, and the running move summary (along with other information, including a real-time display of the move picking trees as the machine was coming up with its move). The 6600-based Cyber 73 system was really quite amazing for its day. The Tektronix machine had a MODCOMP front-end communications processor, and provided timeshared processing to a huge number of users across the Tektronix campus, as well as the Walker Road and Wilsonville sites, via microwave high-speed data links. Those were definitely the "Good Old Days" for being an IT person. Rick Bensene From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 09:12:46 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:12:46 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> Message-ID: On 30 Oct 2012, at 0:21 , Paul Anderson wrote: > Sent from my iPhone > > On 2012-10-29, at 12:04 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > >> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 08:36:41AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At 3:44 PM +0100 10/29/12, Joost van de Griek wrote: >>>> Here are some musings on this subject, in regards to still >>>> photography: >>> >>> Referencing Ken Rockwell is another good way to start a flame war. >>> It is disturbing how many people think he's a credible source. >>> Though sometimes he is the easiest way to get basic info. >>> >>> Zane >> >> I'm glad you said it and not me. It needed saying. > > Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film grain. I even searched it for the word grain. How on earth can you write an article about the relative resolution of film without a word regarding grain?! Fine, here's another link: Point is, saying "35mm film == 24 megapixel" is stupid without reference to frame size. The claim as stated earlier in this thread originated from the motion picture business. So which format is "24 megapixel", then? Here's an idea: stop bringing resolution into these "film vs. digital" discussions. There's tons of reasons to prefer (either) one over the other, all of which are more interesting and valid than resolution for all but niche uses. .tsooJ -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ < < < < < < < \V/ _______|_______\|/_______V_\/vV_________\|/_____ -- Joost van de Griek From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 30 09:25:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:25:57 -0600 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> Message-ID: If you want a single controller board that does everything for your 3D printer, look at the ra board by elefu: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From george at rachors.com Tue Oct 30 09:47:44 2012 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 07:47:44 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> I bought a copy at Kansasfest. I wish I had more time to look through it but it looks chocked full of details. George george at rachors.com On Oct 29, 2012, at 2:25 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Does anyone have this? > http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 > > It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself > intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > | My Photography Website | > | http://www.zanesphotography.com | > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 30 10:38:50 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 08:38:50 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: Glad to hear it, I ordered a copy, and it will be here on Thursday. Something tells me I'm probably going to be digging in the garage for Apple II gear this weekend. :-) I should have a IIc or IIgs fairly accessible, the IIe I'd like to get backup up and running probably can't be accessed unless the weather is nice, as I think it will require opening the garage door to get to it. Zane At 7:47 AM -0700 10/30/12, George Rachor wrote: >I bought a copy at Kansasfest. I wish I had more time to look >through it but it looks chocked full of details. > >George > >george at rachors.com > >On Oct 29, 2012, at 2:25 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> Does anyone have this? >> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >> >> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >> > > Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 11:25:26 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:25:26 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool Message-ID: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a couple screwdrivers/picks. I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need to do it. Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much easier/safer/etc? There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If I'm going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a decent one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? Thanks, Keith From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Tue Oct 30 11:31:15 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 09:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? Message-ID: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ok so what is your opinion on painting macs, FI black? ------------------------------ On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 4:02 AM PDT Joost van de Griek wrote: >No. > >On 30 okt. 2012, at 11:17, Chris Tofu wrote: > >> if not will they still w/great difficulty > >Of course. > >.tsooJ >-- >Wherever you go, there you are. >-- >Joost van de Griek > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:33:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:33:34 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a couple screwdrivers/picks. > > I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need to do it. > > Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much easier/safer/etc? Maybe. I use two tiny jeweller's screwdrivers in the extraction slots to pry it out, which is essentially what the tool is doing. Try not to do it with just one, because you'll risk bending the leads; use both simultaneously to pry it out vertically. - Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:36:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:36:27 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a couple > screwdrivers/picks. You can frequently get away with this a small number of times, but it's not difficult to crack the socket doing this. > I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need to do > it. Each time is a new risk. > Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much easier/safer/etc? Yes. > There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If I'm > going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a decent > one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? I don't know model numbers or brands, but I've seen two kinds - the really cheap ones are really just large specialty tweezers - a bend of flat metal with hooks. The more expensive kind is multiple metal and plastic parts with pivot points and leverage and a more-or-less up-and-down approach to inserting and securing the corners of the PLCC part. Those are nice. I think I've seen them around $10-$15. Be sure to get the size that fits your parts. Not all sizes of extraction tools works with multiple sizes of PLCC parts, and using a tool that's too small and "spread to fit" can result in odd stresses that could crack the socket from the non-vertical component of your lift vector. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 11:50:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 09:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121030094956.V87487@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so what is your opinion on painting macs, FI black? Will you start with the screen? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:58:47 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:58:47 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 12:33 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Oct 30, 2012, at 12:25 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much easier/safer/etc? > > Maybe. I use two tiny jeweller's screwdrivers in the extraction > slots to pry it out, which is essentially what the tool is doing. I've done that successfully many times. I've cracked the socket a few times when the chip was tight. > Try not to do it with just one, because you'll risk bending the > leads; use both simultaneously to pry it out vertically. Agreed. Extraction needs to be vertical, not one corner at a time. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 12:09:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:09:55 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: <509009E3.7030108@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 12:25 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a > couple screwdrivers/picks. > > I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need > to do it. > > Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much > easier/safer/etc? > > There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If > I'm going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a > decent one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? They are a good bit safer and much easier to use. The big deal is pulling it out straight, otherwise the pins can get bent at the chip body, and the sockets may crack. I have a few of them, fairly generic, I don't see any manufacturers' identification on them. I got them via Mouser probably 10-11 years ago before they started popping up everywhere. I can send you a pic if that would be helpful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 12:11:12 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:11:12 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50900A30.1010104@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 12:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't know model numbers or brands, but I've seen two kinds - the > really cheap ones are really just large specialty tweezers - a bend of > flat metal with hooks. The more expensive kind is multiple metal and > plastic parts with pivot points and leverage and a more-or-less > up-and-down approach to inserting and securing the corners of the PLCC > part. Those are nice. I think I've seen them around $10-$15. This describes the one I have. I got it for 44-pinners, but have used it on up to 84-pinners without difficulty. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 12:36:07 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:36:07 +0100 Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 30 Oct 2012, at 17:31 , Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so what is your opinion on painting macs, FI black? Depends on the model, I suppose. Why don't you just enlighten us all where you are going with all this? .tsooJ -- Some people are like "Slinkies". Not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you see one tumble down the stairs. -- Joost van de Griek From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 30 12:45:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:45:24 -0700 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> On 10/30/2012 09:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much > easier/safer/etc? > > There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If > I'm going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a > decent one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? Yes, I'd recommend one if you're going to do much of this. In a pinch, I made one from a 14 gauge bicycle spoke, but that's because I couldn't find my regular tool and was in a hurry. Radio Shack sells an extractor tool, as does OK. Basically, they're pretty much the same in operation as the cheap Far East models. If you want to go deluxe, then investigate the Hakko/CHP extractors. Very different in operation from the usual stuf--and not "universal"--you buy a tool for each size of PLCC--at about $50 per. I had an opportunity to use the one for 68 pin PLCCs and it was a beautiful piece of work and operated very well. But too rich for the few times I actually need to use one. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 30 12:51:05 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/30/2012 09:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much >> easier/safer/etc? >> If you know someone with a 3D printer, you could create an extractor that worked like a little gear puller. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From francois.dion at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 13:06:11 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:06:11 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> References: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Or at least, as close as one can get to one: >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html >> >> Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. > > What's the Motorola laptop in question? Is that an Atrix dock? Yep. Not a hugely complicated thing to do, obviously, and it's been done to death with Raspbian (that is my normal setup for the lapdock - I run the raspberry pi as my mobile server, and I have a wall plate with HDMI and cat5, and I use a USB extender and HDMI cable to connect to the lapdock, with the raspberry pi remote), but I hadn't seen it with RISC OS. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From francois.dion at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 13:13:57 2012 From: francois.dion at gmail.com (Francois Dion) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:13:57 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Francois Dion wrote: >> Or at least, as close as one can get to one: >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html >> >> Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. > > Which USB and HDMI adapters/cables did you use? The dock has micro hdmi male, and micro usb b male. If it was female for both, you could go to about any computer or electronics store and get what you need. This summer I ended up making my micro hdmi to hdmi cable, but it was hard to solder, with the shields and all and it kept flickering. So I ordered the micro hdmi female to hdmi male adapter from china. The rest I found in the US (my parts bin or the local computer shop). I've posted a bunch of pictures with the proper nomenclature on all the adapters and cables: http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop-cables-cabos.html > I know very little about HDMI/DVI video but I'm wondering how hard it > would be to make an IOB6120 squirt out something DVI-esque (it > normally does VGA out while emulating a terminal for the SBC6120). There is the question of handshake and all that, so you do need a chip to handle that for you. You could also buy an adapter: http://sewelldirect.com/Hammerhead.asp That's about as small as they get (yet still quite large). Not cheap, however. Fran?ois -- solarisdesktop.blogspot.com - raspberry-python.blogspot.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 30 13:31:54 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:31:54 +0100 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 09:15, Jarratt RMA wrote: > It has been many years since I wrote any VAX-Pascal and I find myself > needing to write an AST. I have looked around in various documentation > but can't find any examples. The AST I want to write is in response to > the completion of a QIO. The QIO call looks like this: > > Stat := $QIO(0, Channel, IO$_WRITEVBLK, , %IMMED SendCompleted, 0, Buf, Len); > > And the AST itself looks like this (no body at the moment, just want > to make it work first): > > [ASYNCHRONOUS] PROCEDURE SendCompleted( P : UNSIGNED); > BEGIN > END; > When I run the code though I get a runtime error: > > %SYSTEM-F-ACCVIO, access violation, reason mask=00, virtual > address=00000000, PC > =000008C1, PSL=03C00000 > %TRACE-F-TRACEBACK, symbolic stack dump follows > module name routine name line rel PC abs PC > DMC11SEND SENDCOMPLETED 67 00000009 000008C1 > 801D58F3 801D58F3 > 0001E893 0001E893 > DMC11SEND SEND 77 00000070 00000938 > DMC11SEND DMC11SEND 111 00000179 000006BD > > I am not sure what I have done wrong, anyone know? > > Thanks > > Rob A little further investigation shows that VAX-Pascal passes parameters by reference even if the parameter is passed by value. I know this because if I change the AST Parameter in the QIO call to some other number then the access violation occurs at the address with that number. The bit I don't know how to work out is how to get the parameter to be really treated as a value. I have tried the [IMMEDIATE] attribute but it says that is only allowed on external routines. So I am not quite sure how to resolve this. I found an unsatisfactory trick which was to declare a global variable and pass it to the QIO's AST parameter using %REF, but I don't like this solution. Any ideas? Thanks Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 13:52:59 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:52:59 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 2:13 PM, Francois Dion wrote: >> I know very little about HDMI/DVI video but I'm wondering how hard it >> would be to make an IOB6120 squirt out something DVI-esque (it >> normally does VGA out while emulating a terminal for the SBC6120). > > There is the question of handshake and all that, so you do need a chip > to handle that for you. You could also buy an adapter: I know an adapter would work, but the IOB6120 has an FPGA squirting out video. I'm wondering if it's feasible to drop new firmware on the FPGA to emit something acceptable as DVI vs what it does now (monochrome VGA). I lack enough knowledge of the DVI standard to understand what would be needed to formulate the right bit streams (VGA and NTSC I understand quite well enough to hack on). -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 14:10:24 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:10:24 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice Message-ID: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> I currently have a dual-channel 30mhz analog scope, the Intronix 34-channel 500mhz 2k samples max logic analyzer, a Saleae Logic 8-channel 24mhz unlimited samples and a (much) older 60mhz DSO on it's last legs. The 30 & 60 mhz analog scopes are simply too big and cumbersome to use. These new scopes are much smaller and more convenient. For logic analyzers, I have FAST, WIDE, but short buffer. And a slow, narrow, mega-long buffer(limited by PC RAM more or less). These both have their good points but to round out my tools, I need something that ballparks 200mhz, 32-channels, and decent buffer. What's a decent buffer? I don't know exactly. I know 2k isn't even close. And that a million+ is really nice. These are both PC-based logic analyzers and I'm fine with that. The software is sufficient with both and gets me the measurements I need. Of course, I'd prefer standalone units but still would like to export data to a PC (say via USB or serial). This would simplify the process and the UIs of dedicated devices have usually been thought out a little more than the PC software..... I was seriously looking at a Rigol DS1102D which is 100mhz, 16-channel LA + 2 analog channels. My only real beef is that it's 16-channels and not 32. Could really use 32 to do a 16-bit data bus and other stuff (partial address, etc) I can't easily tell looking at the specs what the depth of the LA would be. Would I simply divide the 1 million point memory by the 16 channels? http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000d/ds1102d/ Rigol's have gotten great reviews. Or do I get a scope only, and then use something cheap like this http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer and solder another 16-pin header onto that and go 32-channels, 200mhz, 6k depth. Or buy a kickass eval board and hack SUMP onto it, and get a deeper solution..... While I'm a huge fan of HP and Tektronix, and I know there is old hardware at reasonable prices --- I don't want to mess with trying to piece parts a large mainframe together from untrusted sources, and spend time trying to fix something like that. Plus, the specs are normally not even close to that of modern equipment. I'd rather invest time hacking verilog onto a new eval board that has plenty of fast memory............... Any discussion would be helpful. Thanks, Keith From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 30 14:15:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:15:42 -0600 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Jarratt RMA writes: > It has been many years since I wrote any VAX-Pascal and I find myself > needing to write an AST. When I see "AST", I think "abstract syntax tree", but that appears to have nothing to do with your problem. What do you mean by AST? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book The Computer Graphics Museum The Terminals Wiki Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 14:39:30 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:39:30 -0400 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2612B575-F6B5-4E1F-8699-8FD4FC3F907B@gmail.com> On Oct 30, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Jarratt RMA writes: > >> It has been many years since I wrote any VAX-Pascal and I find myself >> needing to write an AST. > > When I see "AST", I think "abstract syntax tree", but that appears to > have nothing to do with your problem. What do you mean by AST? Asynchronous System Trap. It's a DEC-ism (RSX-11, RSTS, VMS) that doesn't have an exact analog in Unix/Windows land. They're similar to Unix signals in that they act sort of like "software interrupts". The Wikipedia page is somewhat informative: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_System_Trap - Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 14:45:17 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:45:17 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> Message-ID: <50902E4D.6030604@verizon.net> Chuck, On 10/30/2012 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Radio Shack sells an extractor tool, as does OK. Basically, they're > pretty much the same in operation as the cheap Far East models. I found this shortly before your post. They stock it about 10 minutes from my house. Who would have thunk I could'a went around the corner and picked one up? I'll try it for the $11. > If you want to go deluxe, then investigate the Hakko/CHP extractors. > Very different in operation from the usual stuf--and not > "universal"--you buy a tool for each size of PLCC--at about $50 per. Sounds nice. If I had more of a very occasional use for it, I'd consider it. There's something great about having the perfect nice high quality tool for the job. Yup too rich for the need. Thanks Chuck and everyone for the replies. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 14:47:21 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:47:21 -0400 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <509009E3.7030108@neurotica.com> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> <509009E3.7030108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50902EC9.6000500@verizon.net> On 10/30/2012 1:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have a few of them, fairly generic, I don't see any manufacturers' > identification on them. I got them via Mouser probably 10-11 years ago > before they started popping up everywhere. I can send you a pic if that > would be helpful. Thanks for the offer Dave. I'm going to run over to RatShack this afternoon and try theirs on for size. If that doesn't work out, I know where to reach you. :) Keith From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 14:48:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:48:39 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> Message-ID: <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> On Oct 30, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I currently have a dual-channel 30mhz analog scope, the Intronix 34-channel 500mhz 2k samples max logic analyzer, a Saleae Logic 8-channel 24mhz unlimited samples and a (much) older 60mhz DSO on it's last legs. > > The 30 & 60 mhz analog scopes are simply too big and cumbersome to use. These new scopes are much smaller and more convenient. > > For logic analyzers, I have FAST, WIDE, but short buffer. And a slow, narrow, mega-long buffer(limited by PC RAM more or less). These both have their good points but to round out my tools, I need something that ballparks 200mhz, 32-channels, and decent buffer. What's a decent buffer? I don't know exactly. I know 2k isn't even close. And that a million+ is really nice. If you want that, I'd look at old HP logic analyzers on eBay. You can get good deals, and 200+ MHz with millions of samples won't completely break the bank. They're modular, too. Only problem is that they're not exactly small; you're generally talking about 4U rack size, even in a desktop box. > These are both PC-based logic analyzers and I'm fine with that. The software is sufficient with both and gets me the measurements I need. > > Of course, I'd prefer standalone units but still would like to export data to a PC (say via USB or serial). This would simplify the process and the UIs of dedicated devices have usually been thought out a little more than the PC software..... The HP ones will do that, though some of the really old ones will only do it with a floppy. The one I used recently (probably mid-'90s vintage) had a floppy drive and an Ethernet port, and it ran some version of HP-UX, so you could transfer via NFS and FTP. > I was seriously looking at a Rigol DS1102D which is 100mhz, 16-channel LA + 2 analog channels. My only real beef is that it's 16-channels and not 32. Could really use 32 to do a 16-bit data bus and other stuff (partial address, etc) > > I can't easily tell looking at the specs what the depth of the LA would be. Would I simply divide the 1 million point memory by the 16 channels? I don't quite recall, actually, as the amount of memory was way overkill for what we needed. It had a 32-bit word width, though, and I'm pretty sure it could do at least 2 million samples (2M 32-bit words). > Or do I get a scope only, and then use something cheap like this > > http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into that! > While I'm a huge fan of HP and Tektronix, and I know there is old hardware at reasonable prices --- I don't want to mess with trying to piece parts a large mainframe together from untrusted sources, and spend time trying to fix something like that. Plus, the specs are normally not even close to that of modern equipment. I'd rather invest time hacking verilog onto a new eval board that has plenty of fast memory............... You'd be surprised how well an old HP logic analyzer holds up. They're pretty tough; we've never seen broken parts on one yet (admittedly, we don't exactly go through them like popcorn). The specs are pretty generous, too; you won't be sniffing any multi-gig serializer channels, but you can easily get ones that'll do 200 MHz "state" (sync) and over 500 MHz "timing" (async) for not a lot of money. They also do scope modules, but I can't imagine not using a real scope for anything unless I absolutely needed the capture capability linked to the logic. That said, I could understand it if you couldn't dedicate the desk space and a spare monitor and keyboard to the cause. They're not lunchbox scopes, after all. :-) - Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Oct 30 14:56:09 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:56:09 -0700 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5EB46068-FFD2-40D2-8AAB-384AA8450BF1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Oct 30, at 12:15 PM, Richard wrote: > In article jtzJBs34D2420U47EbZ0j9yjXHij9P8w at mail.gmail.com>, > Jarratt RMA writes: > >> It has been many years since I wrote any VAX-Pascal and I find myself >> needing to write an AST. > > When I see "AST", I think "abstract syntax tree", but that appears to > have nothing to do with your problem. What do you mean by AST? IIRC, they were user-specified 'callback' routines from system calls. For example, if you want to do non-blocking IO, you would make a system call to queue the IO request, specifying your callback (AST) routine as an arg in the system call. The system call returns immediately, when the I/O request completes the system executes your AST routine asynchronously to notify you. I couldn't answer the OP's question definitively, but I did kind of wonder if the problem might be something to do with using Pascal for the AST. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 15:21:47 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:21:47 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 03:48 PM, David Riley wrote: >> http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer > > Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into that! I have one. It is handy on occasion for the very simplest of stuff, but it's not a real test instrument. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:23:29 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 13:23:29 -0700 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: If you happen to be anywhere near the Seattle area I have multiple good working HP 16500B & 16700 mainframes and modules that I should try to rehome while they still have any $ value left. They don't sell for much on eBay anymore. -Glen From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:30:43 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:30:43 -0200 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Subject: Re: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice I have a pair of instruments that one can't live without the other: - HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my "heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding. - Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C, SPI, CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols And I don't have $500 of toys. Of course, when money gets better, I'll look for the 16ch Saleae, which is fantastic but too expensive for me at this time. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:38:18 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:38:18 -0200 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <37EA7A98F111483BB5C24BF3454FD120@tababook> How much for a 16700, Glen? How much does it weight? --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2012 6:23 PM Subject: Re: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice > If you happen to be anywhere near the Seattle area I have multiple good > working HP 16500B & 16700 mainframes and modules that I should try to > rehome while they still have any $ value left. They don't sell for much on > eBay anymore. > > -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 15:42:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:42:46 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50903BC6.9000007@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 04:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I have a pair of instruments that one can't live without the other: > - HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my > "heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is > executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding. > - Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C, > SPI, CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols > > And I don't have $500 of toys. > > Of course, when money gets better, I'll look for the 16ch Saleae, > which is fantastic but too expensive for me at this time. When money gets better, you've gotta get your big box of stuff shipped down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 15:55:30 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:55:30 -0200 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> <50903BC6.9000007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > When money gets better, you've gotta get your big box of stuff shipped > down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff > in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile Sure, there are the pattern generators in there :o) But I can use them on the 16700 too hehehe :o) From brain at jbrain.com Tue Oct 30 15:59:21 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:59:21 -0500 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50903FA9.6050101@jbrain.com> On 10/30/2012 3:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Subject: Re: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice > > I have a pair of instruments that one can't live without the other: > - HP16500C with HP16505A and lots and lots of options - This is my > "heavy gun". I can connect it to my PC's bus and see what code it is > executing. But don't have I2C, serial and SPI decoding. > - Saleae (clone) - Only 8 channels, but I can decode serial, I2C, > SPI, CAN, TWI and lots of other protocols Those little 8 channel units are just so impressive. Since getting one, I have gotten a second one (clone, for trips), and the 1650A and Tek LAs have yet to be out of mothballs after the move. I have a 2465 Tek (I think that's the model), 4 channel 300MHz analog scope, and even if you adds all 5 units up, I have less than $600 in all of it. I seriously considered a 1102 (I forget the brand, but we've talked about it here recently), but I am still debating about it and a complete PC scope. I like the idea of a standalone device, but it seems I am never far from my computer anymore, and it's easier to take on computer show trips and help people hacking on new projects if it's not standalone. Jim From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 16:02:54 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:02:54 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5090407E.2070607@verizon.net> On 10/30/2012 3:48 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Or do I get a scope only, and then use something cheap like this >> >> http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer > > Hm, for my purposes, that looks handy. I might have to look into > that! It's just darn cheap and the specs on it are VERY reasonable for the price. The sacrifice (I don't own one, yet) likely comes in the form of limited software. $50 is cheap, and some add-ons, like the voltage translator board (for the extra pins) is like $15. > The > specs are pretty generous, too; you won't be sniffing any multi-gig > serializer channels, but you can easily get ones that'll do 200 MHz > "state" (sync) and over 500 MHz "timing" (async) for not a lot of > money. That's actually fine..... 200/500 is plenty for my purposes. > That said, I could understand it if you couldn't dedicate the desk > space and a spare monitor and keyboard to the cause. They're not > lunchbox scopes, after all. :-) and therein lies the rub. I've got a couple large scopes already, and I'm trying to replace, not add to it. I want smaller, shinier, bright high-resolution and high-update screens. Convenient to use and store. Trust me, I've drooled over those HP mainframes before. They just aren't practical for my needs. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 16:12:27 2012 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:12:27 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <50903FA9.6050101@jbrain.com> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> <50903FA9.6050101@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <509042BB.8090207@verizon.net> On 10/30/2012 4:59 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I seriously considered a 1102 (I forget the brand, but we've talked > about it here recently), but I am still debating about it and a complete > PC scope. Rigol DS1102D that I linked to? Thanks Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 16:23:30 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:23:30 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <5090407E.2070607@verizon.net> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <5090407E.2070607@verizon.net> Message-ID: <50904552.8090009@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 05:02 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > and therein lies the rub. I've got a couple large scopes already, and > I'm trying to replace, not add to it. I want smaller, shinier, bright > high-resolution and high-update screens. Convenient to use and store. What "large" scopes are you wanting to be rid of, if I may ask? (I might be able to give some a home) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 16:23:51 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:23:51 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31323-New-Book-is-a-Modern-Day-User-s-Guide-for-the-Apple-II-Computer&highlight=apple+II+book He mentioned it on the vintage computer forums. http://macgui.com/newa2guide/ I think is the official link. Apparently this is the 2nd revision which does correct some errors. From the chapter previews I'm surprised how much information is in the book. I haven't bought or read it but it's certainly tempting and definitely seems like enough to get someone with the equipment up and running these days. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 16:34:32 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 14:34:32 -0700 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: <37EA7A98F111483BB5C24BF3454FD120@tababook> References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <37EA7A98F111483BB5C24BF3454FD120@tababook> Message-ID: On Oct 30, 2012 1:43 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > > How much for a 16700, Glen? How much does it weight? > A 16700 is much lighter than a 16500 without the heavy CRT. You would still probably end up paying double the mainframe value for the shipping to Brazil. I'd have to look at rates. 16700A mainframes go unsold at $150 on eBay now. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 16:42:39 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:42:39 +0000 Subject: OT: More photographic (Was: Surplus DE9F to 8P8C adapters available In-Reply-To: <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> References: <20121028171906.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508E0003.9070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <74D3919A-595C-41A6-B298-57078435F974@me.com> <20121028213539.T33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 29 October 2012 04:46, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Does anybody still do the very early photographic glass plates? > > about 35 years ago, a friend of mine was doing sandbox holography. She > went in to Alpha Photo in Oakland, which was one of the few real > professional supply houses, where she bought her supplies. They had > different glass plates than she was used to using (dimensional stability > was too critical for film), so she asked about their suitability for > holography. The clerk said, "Don't know. But we have a customer who is > really expert about that, and I'll find out!" > > When she got home, there was a message on her answering machine. > "Hello, this is Mike from Alpha Photo. We have a customer who wants to > know about glass plates for holography, . . . " > > > > Speaking of which, . . . > Does anybody have need or use for a Fujinon table-top Holography System? > (from the 1970s, barely used, but needs a new laser tube. NO, a pocket > laser pointer is not suitable. Power supply is multi-tap, currently set > for 100VAC (Japan), about 24" x 18" x 14") > Free Pickup in Berkeley; I don't want to attempt to ship it. Those interested in home holography might enjoy this: http://amasci.com/amateur/holo1.html *Hand-drawn* holograms. Yes, really. Quite astounding. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 16:51:02 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:51:02 +0000 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> References: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 04:10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Or at least, as close as one can get to one: >> >> http://raspberry-python.blogspot.com/2012/10/risc-laptop.html >> >> Battery powered ARM 1080p Motorola fun. > > What's the Motorola laptop in question? Is that an Atrix dock? That was my guess. I've seen & had a play with such a hack. Looks great from the front; bit inelegant around the back, but still, pretty damn 'leet. Sadly none of the ARM power management works with RISC OS at the moment - but it did once, on the fairly obscure Acorn A4 laptop Archimedes, so the code is in the tree somewhere, presumably, and efforts are afoot to revive it. RISC OS also had a JVM back in the day, and one of those would significantly increase its appeal today. Compared to Linux on low-end modern ARM hardware, RISC OS looks pretty amazing. OK, so, no true memory protection, no multiuser support, no pre-emptive multitasking (although there is a patch for this out there, but it breaks a lot of compatibility), no virtual memory, etc., but it's fast as hell and does a surprisingly large amount of all you might want. I know a number of people for whom it's still their main OS today. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 17:16:27 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:16:27 -0400 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Compared to Linux on low-end modern ARM hardware, RISC OS looks pretty > amazing. OK, so, no true memory protection, no multiuser support, no > pre-emptive multitasking (although there is a patch for this out > there, but it breaks a lot of compatibility), no virtual memory, etc., > but it's fast as hell and does a surprisingly large amount of all you > might want. Sounds like AmigaDOS minus (working) pre-emptive multitasking. I say this not to start a flame war (really), but because it sounds like the closest point of reference amongst the machines I know well. On one other point, there's no true multi-user support in AmigaDOS (UIDs, logins, filesystem permissions/ownership, etc), but I have hung a VT220 off the serial port and fired off a CLI to it and had two people using the same Amiga (my college flatmate was playing a game and I was editing and compiling console-based (stdin/stdout) C programs). > I know a number of people for whom it's still their main OS today. If it does what you need to get done, then there's nothing wrong with that (though connecting to an Exchange server and running Outlook seems to be the second favorite thing for folks to do outside of running a web browser - that alone gives me more grief than anything else in modern computing expectations except maybe OS-specific VPN clients, my hassle of the week). -ethan From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 17:31:24 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 17:31:24 -0500 Subject: CDC 6600 story from Sharktank (my mistake) In-Reply-To: References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> <508FA074.7060602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: That's is sorta creepy lol. I'd love to see a video of the x.eyes program running if any museum (or user) has decided to do so. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:45:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:45:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Oct 29, 12 10:06:08 pm Message-ID: > > > I don't know where you are, but 35mm film is still very easy t ofind. !20 > > is a bit harder, 5*4 sheet film is harder still (but by no means > > impossible), antything esle is 'fun' (and may involve slicing down film > > and repsooling it in a darkroom). > > Try that in Brazil...Will I die without shooting and developing a 120 > roll? :o( Are there import restrictions or somehting? I would have thoguth a couple of rolls of 120 could be sent by post without any problems. > > > One advantaeg of the Nikon system is that the Nikon F lens mount is > > essntially unchanged since 1959. YEs, extra features were added. so if > > you mount an old lens on a new body you are not going to et autofocus 9or > > even automatic exposure ocntrol in some cases), but it wil lfit nad work. > > Similarly I could (if I could afford it) by a new lens that work work on > > my F or F2 bodies. > > So you say I can get a very old nikon, and a brand new one and exchange > lenses (obviously without autofocus, et al)??? :oO VERY nice to know that > :o) YEs. Well, provided that 'very old Nikon' is a reflex camera. The Nikon rangefinder cameras have a Contax (rangefinder) mount. There is a gotcha relating to the mechanism that ocuples the aperture ring to the meter.There heen 2 major designs known as 'non AI' and 'AI'. If the lens wil lmount and you have the wrong sort of coupling, then the thing can still be used in stop-down metering mode. But AIcoupling depends on a cutout in the back of the aperture ring, which old lenses don't haev On somes cameras you can fold away the AI coulping link, so such a lens will mount. On others you cna't and the lens doesn't fit unless you modify/replace the aperture ring. The modified rings are no longer available, so you have to attack the one you have (after removign it from the rest of the lens, of course) with an end mill. > > I use a Lumix FZ35, a very capable superzoom camera. I even got first > place in a local photo concourse... THe eye of the photographer is much more important than the cmaera.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:52:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:52:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <508F258B.8010503@sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 12 05:55:39 pm Message-ID: > Indeed, for many years, the Leica was the amateur's camera in 35mm, with > the pros preferring the Zeiss Contax, a beautifully-made camera. The COntax II is plain _beautiful_. I rebelled against my father by saying the COtnax was superior to the Leica before the War, and buying a COntax II to prove it. I then bougth a Lieca as well :-). But seriosuly. That 'roll top desk' shutter is amazing. The only problem is the cloth tapes the blids run on. They do break ,and the repalcement has to be the right material -- it mst not strtch, etc. AFAIK it's almost impossibel to get the tapes now, if anyone knows of a source, I have this other COtnax 2 with one tape broken. As I mentioend in another message, the Russian Kiev is a copy of the COntax II. not as well made. But absolutely the same design (to the extent at at oen time if you had a COtnax repaired, it was likely to end up with Kiev parts in it). The book 'All yoy need to know about the design and repair of Russian cameras' has a section on this shutter, incluidign jsut wwaht is engaged at various speed settings. If you paln on working on one, that book is essential. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:53:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:53:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <895D75F9-5E03-4EEC-866A-07B1A208996F@gmail.com> from "Randall.kindig" at Oct 29, 12 08:28:45 pm Message-ID: > > I bought it! It's great! What's in it? In particular, waht's in it that's not in the original Apple ][ manuals? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:35:05 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:35:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <20121029163432.R77689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 29, 12 04:38:39 pm Message-ID: > > I won't. The older Minoxes are works of art themselves. Like mechanical > > watches. I'll keep mine for that alone. and my colelction of 16mm > > Minoltas. And my Yashica 16. And my Narciss > > no Tessina? You would love it! No Tessina :-(. I know I'd love it, but they sell for very high prices. OK, I've probably spent more on Nikon and large format gear over the years,. but those are rather more useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:39:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:39:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121029164008.I77689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 29, 12 04:41:14 pm Message-ID: [Signal direction link/switch] > That answers BOTH what the inadequately labelled/documented switch was > for, AND whether it could be installed to the middle of an unbroken floppy > cable (NO.) It didn't take me long to figure it out... Yes, the links on PC parts are often ridiculously poorly dcoumented. At about the same time I installed Microsoft bus mouse card for another chap. The docuemtneation that came with that told me to fti a particualr link if I was installign it in slot 8 of an XT. I now know what it does (connexts the siangle to 'that pin' (B8?) to eneable the dsata buffers on a read). but back then I;'d not read an XT Techref. And of coruse I was instialling it in an XT _clone_.... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 30 17:34:03 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 15:34:03 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: At 4:23 PM -0500 10/30/12, Sam O'nella wrote: >http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?31323-New-Book-is-a-Modern-Day-User-s-Guide-for-the-Apple-II-Computer&highlight=apple+II+book > >He mentioned it on the vintage computer forums. >http://macgui.com/newa2guide/ I think is the official link. Apparently >this is the 2nd revision which does correct some errors. From the chapter >previews I'm surprised how much information is in the book. I haven't >bought or read it but it's certainly tempting and definitely seems like >enough to get someone with the equipment up and running these days. Wow, after looking a little of the previews Thursday can't get here soon enough! Okay, well truth be told that was already the case. :-) The book isn't even here and I'm starting to think about digging for Apple II gear! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 17:42:58 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:42:58 +0000 Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: References: <201210300410.q9U4Aefe12189806@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 22:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Compared to Linux on low-end modern ARM hardware, RISC OS looks pretty >> amazing. OK, so, no true memory protection, no multiuser support, no >> pre-emptive multitasking (although there is a patch for this out >> there, but it breaks a lot of compatibility), no virtual memory, etc., >> but it's fast as hell and does a surprisingly large amount of all you >> might want. > > Sounds like AmigaDOS minus (working) pre-emptive multitasking. I say > this not to start a flame war (really), but because it sounds like the > closest point of reference amongst the machines I know well. Yes, it is - fair comparison. Both work usably in 512KB, too - or did in their 2.x versions, anyway. Both can be used off a single floppy if you're a bit masochistic and very patient. (RO is better as the core OS is in ROM.) > On one other point, there's no true multi-user support in AmigaDOS > (UIDs, logins, filesystem permissions/ownership, etc), but I have hung > a VT220 off the serial port and fired off a CLI to it and had two > people using the same Amiga (my college flatmate was playing a game > and I was editing and compiling console-based (stdin/stdout) C > programs). > Nifty! Don't know of a way to do that in RO but there is one very odd little exception. It's a bit like Windows 3 in standard mode. Not in the trivial sense that you can quit back to the CLI, although you can - in the weird sense that GUI apps are cooperatively multitasked, but the CLI and CLI apps /can/ be preemptively multitasked. Bizarrely the RO standard GUI text editor, !Edit, includes a pre-emptively 'tasked shell. Just it, nothing else anywhere, and it's not in the core OS, it's a feature of the editor. When I was told, I thought it was a joke or someone was fooling with me, but it's real. In RO 4.x (possibly earlier), "task window" is an option off the main OS memory-management/tasks/shutdown menu - but when you call it, it sneakily loads !Edit and gets /it/ to open the window. > If it does what you need to get done, then there's nothing wrong with > that (though connecting to an Exchange server and running Outlook > seems to be the second favorite thing for folks to do outside of > running a web browser - that alone gives me more grief than anything > else in modern computing expectations except maybe OS-specific VPN > clients, my hassle of the week). Yup. No Javascript is the big lack for Web 2; no Flash, Java or Quicktime are things one can live with. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 17:50:32 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 20:50:32 -0200 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic References: Message-ID: <474C2E79302547ADB15AC04CB05E95E0@tababook> > Are there import restrictions or somehting? I would have thoguth a couple > of rolls of 120 could be sent by post without any problems. No restrictions, but EXPENSIVE AS HELL. I've been planning in getting a ZX-80, a ZX-81 (preferably in kit form) and a Spectrum (any model, but I'd prefer the +2 or +3)...But mail prices from UK to Brazil are outrageous... > There is a gotcha relating to the mechanism that ocuples the aperture > ring to the meter.There heen 2 major designs known as 'non AI' and 'AI'. > If the lens wil lmount and you have the wrong sort of coupling, then the > thing can still be used in stop-down metering mode. But AIcoupling > depends on a cutout in the back of the aperture ring, which old lenses > don't haev On somes cameras you can fold away the AI coulping link, so > such a lens will mount. On others you cna't and the lens doesn't fit > unless you modify/replace the aperture ring. The modified rings are no > longer available, so you have to attack the one you have (after removign > it from the rest of the lens, of course) with an end mill. Interesting to know, thanks! > THe eye of the photographer is much more important than the cmaera.... Sure it is! But I love the resources I have with this superzoom (and CHEAP!) camera :) From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 30 18:02:27 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A 1080p ARM laptop In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Oct 30, 12 06:16:27 pm" Message-ID: <201210302302.q9UN2Rb730474268@floodgap.com> > > Compared to Linux on low-end modern ARM hardware, RISC OS looks pretty > > amazing. OK, so, no true memory protection, no multiuser support, no > > pre-emptive multitasking (although there is a patch for this out > > there, but it breaks a lot of compatibility), no virtual memory, etc., > > but it's fast as hell and does a surprisingly large amount of all you > > might want. > > Sounds like AmigaDOS minus (working) pre-emptive multitasking. I say > this not to start a flame war (really), but because it sounds like the > closest point of reference amongst the machines I know well. Dunno. I think it sounds more like classic MacOS minus virtual memory. Either way, I'm actually picking up an Atrix dock to try this. I have an Rpi doing nothing and I think cobbling together a RISC OS laptop is an excellent use of my time. :))) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From gyorpb at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 18:06:08 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 00:06:08 +0100 Subject: film cameras (was: Blue screen of Basic) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 30 Oct 2012, at 22:45 , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > THe eye of the photographer is much more important than the cmaera. Hear, hear. .tsooJ -- This sentance contains three erors. -- Joost van de Griek From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 18:06:16 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121030160215.W8174@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > The COntax II is plain _beautiful_. I rebelled against my father by > saying the COtnax was superior to the Leica before the War, and buying a > COntax II to prove it. I then bougth a Lieca as well :-). According to Buckland, the original Contax was one of the things designed by Emmanual Goldberg. BUT, because he was a Jew, as WWII started up, Zeiss [Germany] systematically destroyed virtually all records of his existence. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 30 18:08:46 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 00:08:46 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121031000846.b7b4b1b1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 28 Oct 2012 16:55:18 -0700 (PDT) Chris Tofu wrote: > are there any realistic benefits to film these days > considering the expense? The joy of producing a siver gelatine fine art print of highest quality with comparatively primitive and cheap technology, but a lot of good, old fashioned handcraft, without any computers. I have enough computers around me all day. Doing somthing manual without computers can be very refreshing. Getting the same quality the digital way will cost an order of magnitude more. I saw very good digital prints. Shoot with nothing less then a Leica M9, postprocessed with an expensive MacPro, printed with an expensive Canon printer. I can get the same with less then 1/10 of the investment. Hell, I can get more, as I shoot 8"x10" too. And I don't need any f***ing computers to do all this. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 30 18:12:22 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:12:22 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:53 PM +0000 10/30/12, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I bought it! It's great! > >What's in it? In particular, waht's in it that's not in the original >Apple ][ manuals? > >-tony The original manuals don't mention things like Ethernet adapters and TCP/IP stacks. :-) I'll have my copy on Thursday, I can't wait. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 18:32:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:32:04 -0400 Subject: DSO / logic analyzer buying advice In-Reply-To: References: <50902620.9000909@verizon.net> <81C499BB-13D7-4AB1-9AD3-1C008EC597C9@gmail.com> <509036DB.5070509@neurotica.com> <50903BC6.9000007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50906374.4010902@neurotica.com> On 10/30/2012 04:55 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> When money gets better, you've gotta get your big box of stuff shipped >> down to you. ;) If I recall correctly, there's some 16500-series stuff >> in there. And I've added a few little gifts to the pile > > Sure, there are the pattern generators in there :o) But I can use > them on the 16700 too hehehe :o) Yes. :-) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 30 18:35:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:35:49 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 story from Sharktank (my mistake) In-Reply-To: References: <508F66D5.2050707@jwsss.com> <508FA074.7060602@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <50906455.8010302@sydex.com> On 10/30/2012 03:31 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > That's is sorta creepy lol. I'd love to see a video of the x.eyes program > running if any museum (or user) has decided to do so. Well, to be accurate, that would require a working DD60 display as well as a working 6000-series machine. Later (Cyber) versions used a different console and the effect wasn't quite the same. Probably pretty difficult to find such a setup in working condition today. --Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Oct 30 18:37:50 2012 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 16:37:50 -0700 Subject: 6 bit encoding Message-ID: <509064CE.8240.15EC20B6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi all, I'm decyphering an encoding scheme that was used to compress source code decks. It's from an old obscure IBM 1130 program (CMXP, written by Wil Baden, part of set of enhancements that let source code be stored, edited, and compiled directly from disk. Radical! Visionary!) The compressed format uses 6 bits to encode each character, but it's not any of the standard IBM 6-bit EBCD schemes I've found through Google. It *might* be unique to this compression/decompression program, whose source I haven't found yet. (And if the source does turn up it'll likely be compressed using this format -- so unless the character codes are in the source as hex constants, the source may not help). Here is what I've been able to map out so far, from a small fragment of an encoded source deck: Hex value 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 00 sp A B C D E F G H I . ) 10 + J K L M N O P Q R * 20 - / S T U V W X Y Z , ( 30 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = where "sp" is space. I am absolutely certain of the encoding of the space, alphabet, digits, slash, comma, period, parentheses, and asterisk. I'm pretty sure of the plus, minus, and equals. For the ones I've left blank, I have no idea yet; either the codes aren't in the sample I examined or I can't guess what the character is from the context. If I read in more cards they might become clear. I've found some CDC codes where / precedes S, but the row ordering is different. Does this encoding ring any bells for anyone? (Again, it might not belong to any standard). Thanks Brian From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 30 18:47:55 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Keith Monahan wrote: > I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a > couple screwdrivers/picks. > > I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need > to do it. > > Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much > easier/safer/etc? Absolutely. Not only are you quite likely to crack the socket with screwdrivers, the screwdriver approach will often nick/chip the corners of the PLCC device. Some of the really cheap PLCC extractors can chip the PLCC device too though. > There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If > I'm going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a > decent one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? I own a couple that were made by OK Industries, which was bought out awhile back by Jonard. They still make them: http://www.jonard.com/jonard-ecommerce/control/product/~product_id=11029 http://www.jonard.com/jonard-ecommerce/control/product/~product_id=11028 From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 18:51:58 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 00:51:58 +0100 Subject: searching for Unibus disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm searching for Unibus disk controllers for my 11/24 and 11/730 machines. It could be ESDI, SMD or better SCSI, of course the price will change. Also an RL02 or RX02 interface could be interesting, if somebody has one to rid of. I already have an SDI interface, but no SDI working disk, unfortunately... Preferred location is within EU. Thanks Andrea From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 30 18:53:11 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 18:53:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: References: <508FFF76.6050409@verizon.net> <50901234.9010108@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > On 10/30/2012 09:25 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much >> easier/safer/etc? > > If you know someone with a 3D printer, you could create an extractor > that worked like a little gear puller. :) I have some PGA insertion/extraction tools that work like that. They are made from machined aluminum and stainless steel though. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 30 19:51:48 2012 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:51:48 -0500 Subject: PLCC extraction tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50907624.5030605@pico-systems.com> Message: 8 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:25:26 -0400 From: Keith Monahan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PLCC extraction tool Message-ID: <508FFF76.6050409 at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I've got to remove a PLCC from a socket, and intend on just using a couple screwdrivers/picks. I may need to do this a few times, but I generally don't find the need to do it. Is a specialized PLCC extraction tool really required/much easier/safer/etc? There seem to be a ton of tools online starting around $2 US a piece. If I'm going to spend the time/shipping to order one, I may as well get a decent one. Can anyone recommend a specific model/US source for it? Warning, levering them out with a tool can easily crack the socket, then you will get poor contact. I've got a $10 tool that easily fits the larger sockets, but the first time I used it on a 68-pin PLCC, the pulling hooks broke off. I filed new hooks out of decent steel and brazed them to the existing tool's arms, and it works great, now. So, I can't recommend an off-the shelf tool that actually works well right out of the box. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 30 20:18:01 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:18:01 -0600 Subject: film cameras In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50907C49.2020002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/30/2012 5:06 PM, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 30 Oct 2012, at 22:45 , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> THe eye of the photographer is much more important than the cmaera. > The mouth ... You all say Cheese! From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 20:38:10 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 01:38:10 +0000 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <896873985-1351647492-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-535434495-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I'm guessing you're asking about the "option board" so since I didn't see it get mentioned the full name is central point (deluxe) option board. Central point was the manufacturer if you want to google around for more info. Others already mentioned the useful details though. Was for backing up floppies regardless of format. (Not necessarily dos/fat-12 disks). Also could copy some copy protected disks. Sorta useful these days when the software is no longer in production or any other format. -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Stoness Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Sun, 28 Oct 2012 20:56:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: anyone with an early Option Board? what exactly is this board? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 30 21:37:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 22:37:35 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> Message-ID: <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> On 10/29/2012 09:56 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six >> PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a stepper >> controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a >> poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) > > :oO Photos, please? http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 23:45:58 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 02:45:58 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Update: It isn't the BPROMs. Since my trustworthy Beeprog doesn't work with the D3625 (older than earth itself!), I had to create a small dumper to read the BPROMs: http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/21.jpg Once read, I found some differences to the original BPROMs that runs in the MESS emulator. So, I renamed my BPROM files to the MESS standard, and...It ran. :oP So the problem is the 8086 itself, one or more RAMs (P2142) or some phisical problem on the board. I will repair it! :oO http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/22.jpg Time to sleep...See ya :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 00:11:21 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 01:11:21 -0400 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:45 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Update: It isn't the BPROMs. > > Since my trustworthy Beeprog doesn't work with the D3625 (older than > earth itself!), I had to create a small dumper to read the BPROMs: > > http://www.tabalabs.com.br/outros_micros/sdk86/21.jpg Cool. Nice to know. Mostly, PROMs are sturdy, though every once in a while (under 5%), they do turn up bad. > So the problem is the 8086 itself, one or more RAMs (P2142) or some > phisical problem on the board. I couldn't find any info on the P2142 SRAMs. From the picture, they look like 20 pin parts, if I counted right. If they are 4-bit parts, specifically 1Kx4, does the footprint look close enough to wedge a 2114 in each socket with an adapter? What about wiring a pair of 6116 (2016) 2Kx8 SRAMs up in the breadboarding area? If that's not enough RAM, surely a pair of 6264s would do it. Just a 16-bit path to the bus and a simple address decoder, most likely. It's not original, but it might get you running until you could track down some P2142s. > I will repair it! :oO That's the spirit! -ethan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 00:20:04 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 03:20:04 -0200 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5C3CCB9374884B33973A1C0E3255265F@tababook> > I couldn't find any info on the P2142 SRAMs. From the picture, they > look like 20 pin parts, if I counted right. If they are 4-bit parts, > specifically 1Kx4, does the footprint look close enough to wedge a > 2114 in each socket with an adapter? What about wiring a pair of 6116 > (2016) 2Kx8 SRAMs up in the breadboarding area? If that's not enough > RAM, surely a pair of 6264s would do it. Just a 16-bit path to the > bus and a simple address decoder, most likely. It's not original, but > it might get you running until you could track down some P2142s. It will be simpler to create a small tester for the P2142, just like I did for the BPROMs ;o) I confess I'm confused with this board... From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 31 00:49:32 2012 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 01:49:32 -0400 Subject: dead sca scsi hard disk Message-ID: <0372E800FDF54B279C9D05003EC41B84@hd2600xt6a04f7> I have a Seagate ST336706LC (10KRPM 36GB SCA-2) HD that quit working one day (doesn't light up, isn't detected, no humming or spinning). Was wondering if there is a fuse or something fixable on this drive (I kept my hardware drivers on it and not all of them are backed up). Mostly just want to get the data back before I toss it if possible. Any ideas? From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 11:22:39 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 12:22:39 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 110, Issue 52 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: jim s > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:34:13 -0700 > Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank > > "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens go blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look slowly to the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare straight ahead. Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and go back to scrolling plain text. > > "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." A friend at CDC gave me a punched card deck that would run that program. The computer operators at the University were more than a little freaked out when they saw the eyes. No, I don't have the card deck anymore. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 31 02:10:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 00:10:39 -0700 Subject: 6 bit encoding In-Reply-To: <509064CE.8240.15EC20B6@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <509064CE.8240.15EC20B6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <5090CEEF.6050703@sydex.com> On 10/30/2012 04:37 PM, Brian Knittel wrote: > Here is what I've been able to map out so far, from a small fragment of > an encoded source deck: > > Hex value > 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > 00 sp A B C D E F G H I . ) > 10 + J K L M N O P Q R * > 20 - / S T U V W X Y Z , ( > 30 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = It's almost IBM 6-bit BCD, organized by card punch codes, with some interesting exceptions. For example, if it were strictly card code, the "no zone punch row would be" sp 0123456789 and the "+" zone punch would be +ABCDEFGHI and the "-" zone ordering would be -nJKLMNOPQR and the "0" zone ordering would be /STUVWXYZ. "n" in the above refers to a non-printing -0 combination, though various vendors had their own codes for it. The remainder of the chart roughly corresponds to triple punches, e.g., 12-8-3 for a period, 0-8-3 for a comma. So it's card code, sort of. It doesn't correspond directly with any standard 6-bit code that I recognize. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Oct 31 02:24:46 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 01:24:46 -0600 Subject: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5090D23E.8050408@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Mostly, PROMs are sturdy, though every once in a while (under 5%), > they do turn up bad. Depends on the technology used. Most of the early ones used NiCr fuses, which commonly have a problem with regrowth. Because of that, other technologies were introduced, which were less prone to that problem. One fairly common replacement was TiW. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 02:58:59 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 02:58:59 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 110, Issue 52 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: mag or paper? On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > From: jim s > > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:34:13 -0700 > > Subject: B6700 story from Sharktank > > > > "It's 2 o'clock in the morning. Halloween. Suddenly, the two screens go > blank. Then two closed eyes appear. Slowly open. Eyeballs look slowly to > the left, then slowly to the right -- then slowly stare straight ahead. > Then eyelids slowly close, the two displays blank, and go back to scrolling > plain text. > > > > "Of course, nobody is going to believe the operator..." > > A friend at CDC gave me a punched card deck that would run that program. > The computer operators at the University were more than a little > freaked out when they saw the eyes. > No, I don't have the card deck anymore. > > -- > Michael Thompson > > From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 31 03:41:57 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:41:57 +0000 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: On 30 October 2012 22:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Wow, after looking a little of the previews Thursday can't get here soon > enough! Okay, well truth be told that was already the case. :-) The book > isn't even here and I'm starting to think about digging for Apple II gear! I haven't even bought it (I spent all my amazon money buying my daughter a book for University) and it has me thinking about hauling out all that Apple gear. My wife would then remember that I have it, and start trying to get me to get rid of it. -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 04:20:06 2012 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:20:06 +0000 Subject: dead sca scsi hard disk In-Reply-To: <0372E800FDF54B279C9D05003EC41B84@hd2600xt6a04f7> References: <0372E800FDF54B279C9D05003EC41B84@hd2600xt6a04f7> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 05:49, TeoZ wrote: > I have a Seagate ST336706LC (10KRPM 36GB SCA-2) HD that quit working one day (doesn't light up, isn't detected, no humming or spinning). Was wondering if there is a fuse or something fixable on this drive (I kept my hardware drivers on it and not all of them are backed up). Mostly just want to get the data back before I toss it if possible. > > Any ideas? If you can get an identical drive its an easy process to swap the electronics modules on the bottom, usually just 4 torx screws and a gentle upward tug. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 08:16:22 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 06:16:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 09:56 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six >>> PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a stepper >>> controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a >>> poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) >> >> :oO Photos, please? > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg > Just looking at that gives me a headache. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 08:36:59 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:36:59 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091297A.9070804@gmail.com> On 10/29/2012 05:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 05:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone have this? >> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >> >> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > > You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) Heck, it's almost possible to see it - although it's a little blocky. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 08:51:04 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 06:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > On 30 October 2012 22:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> >> Wow, after looking a little of the previews Thursday can't get here soon >> enough! Okay, well truth be told that was already the case. :-) The book >> isn't even here and I'm starting to think about digging for Apple II gear! > > I haven't even bought it (I spent all my amazon money buying my > daughter a book for University) and it has me thinking about hauling > out all that Apple gear. My wife would then remember that I have it, > and start trying to get me to get rid of it. If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 31 09:08:07 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:08:07 +0000 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 13:51, geneb wrote: > > If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound > sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that just > because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. Yeah dude!! And I have to fix that God Damned Sewing Machine! "The sewing machine isn't working again!" Sigh. She threatened to rectally insert it (the Apple // europlus) into the guy who gave it to me. I get away with quite a bit, actually. She did refuse to let me ship my PDP 11 over here, even though she packed things like toilet roll and Suave shampoo in that shipping container... at least they don't require 110v 60hz. Really, what the // lacks at the moment is a monitor. It has no RF adapter. I'd have to rig something up. I gave my last VCR away, so I can't use that as a composite adapter anymore. Hmmm... ...all this makes me want to either write a BBS for the // (like I never started that project before) or for RSTS/E (like I never started that project before). I guess I should have tried harder to hit it off with one of those women at sci-fi conventions... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 09:01:46 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:01:46 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> > If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound > sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that > just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. Now you can see why I'm single :o) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 31 10:15:09 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: from geneb at "Oct 31, 12 06:51:04 am" Message-ID: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> > If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound > sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that > just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. I knew there was a reason I was still single. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Xerox never comes up with anything original. ------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 10:31:06 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > > She threatened to rectally insert it (the Apple // europlus) into the > guy who gave it to me. > Yeah, that would've been it for me. I woudln't tolerate that kind of behavior. It's just unacceptable. Might I suggest a Wife 2.0 update and a move back to Merricastan? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 31 10:32:14 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:32:14 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 15:15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound >> sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that >> just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. > > I knew there was a reason I was still single. I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 10:33:10 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound >> sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that just >> because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. > > Now you can see why I'm single :o) I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't run very fast. *laughs*) Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for our own protection. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 31 10:44:00 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:44:00 +0000 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 15:31, geneb wrote: > Yeah, that would've been it for me. I woudln't tolerate that kind of > behavior. It's just unacceptable. Might I suggest a Wife 2.0 update and a > move back to Merricastan? :) This is Wife 2.0 I'm not going for any more "upgrades". (Wife 1.0 was more tolerant of computer hardware but had other downsides.) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 10:56:46 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 08:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > On 31 October 2012 15:15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound >>> sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that >>> just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. >> >> I knew there was a reason I was still single. > > I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not > simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." "If I wanted your opinion on my wiring ability, I'd tell you what it was." :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 31 10:57:42 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:57:42 +0000 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: On 31 October 2012 15:33, geneb wrote: > I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) > She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She > knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't run > very fast. *laughs*) > > Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for our > own protection. :) Female thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzb0LPM0CDU&playnext=1&list=PL680EF61DDD9A2E77&feature=results_main (if I can't be sexist here....) -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 10:51:31 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:51:31 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: You're a point outside the curve :o) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:33 PM Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go >>> pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think >>> that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it >>> either. >> >> Now you can see why I'm single :o) > > I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) > She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She > knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't > run very fast. *laughs*) > > Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for > our own protection. :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From jonas at otter.se Wed Oct 31 04:22:45 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:22:45 +0100 Subject: Writing an AST in VAX-Pascal Message-ID: <4e57997ea922392abb1f939f4dfe0e4f@otter.se> I did this in the '80s and it worked very well, I used it as a kind of software interrupt in a communications handler that had to handle both input and output at the same time from the same terminal. Unfortunately I don't rememver exactly how I did it, and I no longer have access to the source code. But I did find this in the HP Pascal for OpenVMS User manual, section 5.1.4 on page 5-6: Asynchronous system trap routines (ASTs) and RMS completion routines must have both the ASYNCHRONOUS and UNBOUND attributes. Because they are asynchronous, such routines can access only volatile variables, predeclared routines, and other asynchronous routines. The Language Reference mentions the User manual near the end in conjunction with volatile variables. You might also need to declare the variable p as volatile somewhere. The User manual is here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/82final/6140/aa-pxsnd-tk.pdf You would probably want to read chapter 5 in there. Hope this helps. /Jonas From ryan at hack.net Wed Oct 31 11:16:12 2012 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 11:16:12 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: <50914ECC.90006@hack.net> On 10/31/12 10:33 AM, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go >>> pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that >>> think that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not >>> like it either. >> >> Now you can see why I'm single :o) > Find one that is happy because you're happy. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 31 11:32:13 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "Oct 31, 12 01:51:31 pm" Message-ID: <201210311632.q9VGWD6V29098084@floodgap.com> > > > > If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go > > > > pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think > > > > that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it > > > > either. > > > > > > Now you can see why I'm single :o) > > > > I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) > > She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She > > knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't > > run very fast. *laughs*) > > > > Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for > > our own protection. :) > > You're a point outside the curve :o) I try to be very upfront about my hobbies. I figure if I do get hitched, at least I can say, "well, it's not like you didn't know." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Sometimes Dilbert is so true, it's scary. -- Mike Jacobs ------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 11:34:30 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > On 31 October 2012 15:33, geneb wrote: > >> I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) >> She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She >> knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't run >> very fast. *laughs*) >> >> Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for our >> own protection. :) > > Female thinking: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzb0LPM0CDU&playnext=1&list=PL680EF61DDD9A2E77&feature=results_main > *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 11:35:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 12:35:38 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> On Oct 31, 2012, at 11:44 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > On 31 October 2012 15:31, geneb wrote: >> Yeah, that would've been it for me. I woudln't tolerate that kind of >> behavior. It's just unacceptable. Might I suggest a Wife 2.0 update and a >> move back to Merricastan? :) > > This is Wife 2.0 > > I'm not going for any more "upgrades". Perhaps it's time to try "software as a service". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 31 11:48:04 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 09:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 31, 12 12:35:38 pm" Message-ID: <201210311648.q9VGm4D729884666@floodgap.com> > > This is Wife 2.0 > > > > I'm not going for any more "upgrades". > > Perhaps it's time to try "software as a service". Mr Pibb -> iBook -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Never Say Never Again" ---------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 12:06:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <201210311632.q9VGWD6V29098084@floodgap.com> References: <201210311632.q9VGWD6V29098084@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >>> Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for >>> our own protection. :) >> >> You're a point outside the curve :o) > > I try to be very upfront about my hobbies. I figure if I do get hitched, at > least I can say, "well, it's not like you didn't know." Yep. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 12:08:02 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 31, 2012, at 11:44 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> On 31 October 2012 15:31, geneb wrote: >>> Yeah, that would've been it for me. I woudln't tolerate that kind of >>> behavior. It's just unacceptable. Might I suggest a Wife 2.0 update and a >>> move back to Merricastan? :) >> >> This is Wife 2.0 >> >> I'm not going for any more "upgrades". > > Perhaps it's time to try "software as a service". > *ROFL* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 12:09:06 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 10:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <201210311648.q9VGm4D729884666@floodgap.com> References: <201210311648.q9VGm4D729884666@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> This is Wife 2.0 >>> >>> I'm not going for any more "upgrades". >> >> Perhaps it's time to try "software as a service". > > Mr Pibb -> iBook What a horrid thing to do to a Mr. Pibb.... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:04:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:04:33 -0400 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 11:32 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not > simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." If you look deeper into that sort of statement, you'll find it's deeply disrespectful. For me, that relationship would have ended on the spot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:05:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:05:19 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like this. -Dave On 10/31/2012 11:51 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > You're a point outside the curve :o) > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:33 PM > Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > > >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >>>> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go >>>> pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that >>>> think that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not >>>> like it either. >>> >>> Now you can see why I'm single :o) >> >> I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the >> planet. :) >> She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. >> She knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I >> didn't run very fast. *laughs*) >> >> Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation >> for our own protection. :) >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Oct 31 13:24:08 2012 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:24:08 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone have this? > http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 > > It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself > intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) Wow! This looks like it will be a very interesting book. I guess now that I've ordered it from amazon.com I ought to think about actually acquiring an Apple II machine! :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 13:27:16 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:27:16 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 10:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 09:56 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six >>> PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a stepper >>> controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a >>> poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg Ah, yes. That, BTW, is an original Mendel knock-off, not a Prusa knock-off (major difference is original has one Z motor and an undercarraige belt system, the Prusa has two Z motors). Yes, that's an older extruder design, but it should get you started to the point of being able to print a better one (or you can purchase a newer extruder if you want to sink money vs time into it). The original Mendel was designed to print with PLA, so no heated bed. ABS (or full 8" PLA parts) will require a heated bed. MakerBot just switched from ABS to PLA as their primary material. RepRappers have been using both all along, depending on personal preference and costs and especially bed design. If you can get some firmware on the main board and at least get it to dance around without heat or a filament, you are most of the way there. I'd recommend getting everything working up to the point of installing the extruder on the X sled and deciding if you want to spend time or spend money on the final steps. I cannot make specific firmware or application suggestions from experience. You are further in your Mendel build than I am with mine. I have much more experience with MakerBot products/tools. We do have a monthly 3D printer meetup in Columbus, but it's 3.5 hrs from you and runs from 19:00-22:00 - not a great time for such a long commute. We get people dropping in from around the state, but 1.5 hrs is about the max range. ObOnTopic: anyone draft up an STL file for DEC toggle switch paddles yet? I'm willing to give a go at printing some but I'm not a skilled CAD operator/designer. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:31:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:31:58 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> References: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <50916E9E.1020907@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 02:24 PM, David Betz wrote: > On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Does anyone have this? >> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >> >> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > > Wow! This looks like it will be a very interesting book. I guess now that I've ordered it from amazon.com I ought to think about actually acquiring an Apple II machine! :-) I'm thinking about buying the book as well. I was never much into the Apple ][ scene but I have a few machines here. I think it's time to dig into them. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 31 13:33:29 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210311833.OAA16161@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> [Top-posting and no-trimming damage (worsened by a top-posted reply to a sane-posted reply) repaired manually.] >>>>> I cannot understand mates that think that just because THEY don't >>>>> like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. >>>> Now you can see why I'm single :o) >>> Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation >>> for our own protection. :) >> You're a point outside the curve :o) > If he is, then I'm another one. I'm not at present, but I have been in the past. Neither of my serious SOs have hassled me about either my vocation or my avocation (it's not always easy to tell the one from the other for me). > It IS possible to find compatible significant others. It is. I'm getting relatively serious about someone who seems remarkably like-minded to me; if it develops the way it seems to be going, I may well have a thoroughly compatible SO before _too_ much longer. > There is no need to suffer through bullshit like this. Sometimes the hobby is not the highest-priority consideration, as difficult as that may be to understand for those who haven't found themselves in such a situation. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:47:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:47:48 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <201210311833.OAA16161@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <201210311833.OAA16161@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <50917254.9010802@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 02:33 PM, Mouse wrote: >> It IS possible to find compatible significant others. > > It is. I'm getting relatively serious about someone who seems > remarkably like-minded to me; if it develops the way it seems to be > going, I may well have a thoroughly compatible SO before _too_ much > longer. I wish you the very best of luck. >> There is no need to suffer through bullshit like this. > > Sometimes the hobby is not the highest-priority consideration, as > difficult as that may be to understand for those who haven't found > themselves in such a situation. I get that, but the term "hobby" here is the problem. For some of us, that term just doesn't do it justice. This is a LIFESTYLE for some people. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:48:50 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:48:50 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <5091297A.9070804@gmail.com> References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> <5091297A.9070804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <50917292.2080508@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 09:36 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 10/29/2012 05:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 10/29/2012 05:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Does anyone have this? >>> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >>> >>> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >>> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >> >> You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) > > Heck, it's almost possible to see it - although it's a little blocky. Nice! :-) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:50:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:50:58 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: <50917312.8080407@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 09:51 AM, geneb wrote: > If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go > pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think > that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it > either. Yes. I discuss this with Autumn most every time it comes up here. She doesn't understand it either. She acknowledges that she doesn't have the burning interest in this stuff that I do, but she does think it's cool and important to history. Her take on it is simple. She sees me happier than a pig in shit when I'm hacking on my stuff. She knows it makes me happy, and she knows it's important to me. This makes HER happy. Why does it make her happy? Because she cares about me. If she didn't, it wouldn't. Take from that what you may. Divorce attorneys are in the yellow pages. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 13:59:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:59:35 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 09:16 AM, geneb wrote: >>>> My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six >>>> PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a >>>> stepper >>>> controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a >>>> poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) >>> >>> :oO Photos, please? >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg >> > Just looking at that gives me a headache. Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Wed Oct 31 14:07:00 2012 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:07:00 +0000 Subject: 6 bit encoding In-Reply-To: <509064CE.8240.15EC20B6@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <509064CE.8240.15EC20B6@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <509176D4.7010008@ljw.me.uk> I'm not sure if this is what you want, but... From the "2821 Hex to BCD Translation" in the S/360 FE Handbook p2-4: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/fe/SY22-2851-1_360FE_Aug70.pdf Hex value 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 00 sp A B C D E F G H I + . ) % + 10 & J K L M N O P Q R - $ * ) 20 - / S T U V W X Y Z , ( , 30 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 # @ @ # Some are duplicated. You can use the table on p2-5 to look up the AB8421 codes. Lawrence On 30/10/12 23:37, Brian Knittel wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm decyphering an encoding scheme that was used to compress source > code decks. It's from an old obscure IBM 1130 program (CMXP, written by > Wil Baden, part of set of enhancements that let source code be stored, > edited, and compiled directly from disk. Radical! Visionary!) > > The compressed format uses 6 bits to encode each character, but it's > not any of the standard IBM 6-bit EBCD schemes I've found through > Google. It *might* be unique to this compression/decompression program, > whose source I haven't found yet. (And if the source does turn up it'll > likely be compressed using this format -- so unless the character codes > are in the source as hex constants, the source may not help). > > Here is what I've been able to map out so far, from a small fragment of > an encoded source deck: > > Hex value > 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > 00 sp A B C D E F G H I . ) > 10 + J K L M N O P Q R * > 20 - / S T U V W X Y Z , ( > 30 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 = > > where "sp" is space. I am absolutely certain of the encoding of the > space, alphabet, digits, slash, comma, period, parentheses, and > asterisk. I'm pretty sure of the plus, minus, and equals. For the ones > I've left blank, I have no idea yet; either the codes aren't in the > sample I examined or I can't guess what the character is from the > context. If I read in more cards they might become clear. > > I've found some CDC codes where / precedes S, but the row ordering is > different. > > Does this encoding ring any bells for anyone? (Again, it might not > belong to any standard). > > Thanks > Brian > > -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph 07841-048948 http://www.ljw.me.uk From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:06:57 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:06:57 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> > If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible > significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like > this. I can accept tips. I can only find stupid (and gorgeous) girls around. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:08:24 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:08:24 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> <50916E9E.1020907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <26F021B0A01043B7AA09CBAA17D90FFF@tababook> > I'm thinking about buying the book as well. I was never much into the > Apple ][ scene but I have a few machines here. I think it's time to dig > into them. :-) Apple machines were interesting with a weak basic and a nice assembler in ROM. Lots of productivity apps and nice games. I'd reccommend you "wings of fury" in a //e with a Transwarp accelerator. It is lots of fun From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:09:28 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:09:28 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <201210311833.OAA16161@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50917254.9010802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2801E4ADD32A4F12B8C1848A892F6BF4@tababook> > I get that, but the term "hobby" here is the problem. For some of us, > that term just doesn't do it justice. This is a LIFESTYLE for some > people. Me! :o) and most of my (single) friends! :o) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 31 14:22:10 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50917254.9010802@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <201210311833.OAA16161@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <50917254.9010802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201210311922.PAA16477@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...]; if it develops the way it seems to be going, I may well have >> a thoroughly compatible SO before _too_ much longer. > I wish you the very best of luck. Thank you! >> Sometimes the hobby is not the highest-priority consideration, [...] > I get that, but the term "hobby" here is the problem. For some of > us, that term just doesn't do it justice. This is a LIFESTYLE for > some people. True enough, but the same is true of practically anything "hobby" can reasonably be used for, from model railroading to baseball to ancient Vedic poetry to making tie-dye. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:36:59 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:36:59 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> > Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, > though. THIS can solve all your problems in a simple way, and you can do this board at home. http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/2012/08/placa-gen7br2.html This is the board all of us use here, and works flawlessly. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 14:57:39 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:57:39 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> Message-ID: <509182B3.8040301@gmail.com> On 10/31/2012 09:08 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > On 31 October 2012 13:51, geneb wrote: >> >> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound >> sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that just >> because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. > > Yeah dude!! And I have to fix that God Damned Sewing Machine! > > "The sewing machine isn't working again!" That reminds me, I should really try and fix the food mixer that I took apart last night :-) (there's a big ol' crack in the internal frame, but it wouldn't hurt to try some JB-weld before stripping it for useful bits and tossing the rest) > I get away with quite a bit, actually. She did refuse to let me ship > my PDP 11 over here Where's 'here'? (and where was 'there'?) > Really, what the // lacks at the moment is a monitor. It has no RF > adapter. I'd have to rig something up. I gave my last VCR away, so I > can't use that as a composite adapter anymore. Hmmm... Composite->RF adapters used to be plentiful a couple of years or so ago for connecting up games consoles and the like to older TVs; I'm sure there are lots lurking still as people have upgraded their TVs. Maybe try freecycle etc. Of course finding a TV that has composite inputs built-in might be a possibility, too? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 15:02:21 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:02:21 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <508F25D3.6040008@neurotica.com> References: <508EFE3C.7040105@neurotica.com> <508F25D3.6040008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <509183CD.3050407@gmail.com> On 10/29/2012 07:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/29/2012 07:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> Does anyone have this? >>>> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >>>> >>>> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >>>> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) >>> >>> You definitely are, I can feel it from here! ;) >> >> I blame Tony! ;-) He's already gotten me to buy one book for a project >> for my Commodore 64, and I've found a similar project for the Apple II. > > You're in deep shit now, my friend. ;) Connect the Apple II to a TV, and then at least the deep shit won't look brown... From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 15:03:08 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: <20121030094956.V87487@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121030094956.V87487@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1351713788.44597.YahooMailNeo@web121002.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> LOL LOL LOL so funny o my side! The screen is already black though (and white)! Snaaaaaag What you got against compact Macs there Fredster? And yes this reply warranted a top post, and I didn't even have to! From: Fred Cisin On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so what is your opinion on painting macs, FI black? Will you start with the screen? From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 15:06:21 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: do SE mobos fit in Mac Plus cases? In-Reply-To: References: <1351614675.26359.BPMail_low_carrier@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1351713981.47956.YahooMailNeo@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: Joost van de Griek On 30 Oct 2012, at 17:31 , Chris Tofu wrote: > ok so what is your opinion on painting macs, FI black? Depends on the model, I suppose. Why don't you just enlighten us all where you are going with all this? .tsooJ C: Where I'm going? I'll be in the midwest in a matter of weeks. Gonna throw a Mac Plus (w/some screen issues) in the heap. It's just a fun thing to have around yer know. I have a choice of taking a Plus or an SE. I think I'm going to boycott the SE because of ample use of custom logic (yes I know the plus has it too, but just a lot less). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 15:11:58 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:11:58 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> Message-ID: <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 03:36 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, >> though. > > THIS can solve all your problems in a simple way, and you can do this > board at home. > http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/2012/08/placa-gen7br2.html > > This is the board all of us use here, and works flawlessly. That looks like a nice setup. All those through-hole components, though, make me shudder almost as much as the original electronics! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 15:13:10 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <20121029164008.I77689@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 29, 12 04:41:14 pm Message-ID: <1351714390.65462.YahooMailNeo@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Tony Duell [Signal direction link/switch] > That answers BOTH what the inadequately labelled/documented switch was > for, AND whether it could be installed to the middle of an unbroken floppy > cable (NO.) It didn't take me long to figure it out... Yes, the links on PC parts are often ridiculously poorly dcoumented. At about the same time I installed Microsoft bus mouse card for another chap. The docuemtneation that came with that told me to fti a particualr link if I was installign it in slot 8 of an XT. I now know what it does (connexts the siangle to 'that pin' (B8?) to eneable the dsata buffers on a read). but back then I;'d not read an XT Techref. And of coruse I was instialling it in an XT _clone_.... -tony C: Just getting back online. Been viewing posts on my idiot phone (which no longer registers a signal, or rarely), but it generally isn't worth it to reply. ?Anyway, my op didn't reflect the benefit of looking at the board. Since then I've seen that there is a card edge and a header connector. So I figure I'd be good to go w/2 standard floppy cables of any variety (I have loads). Question is what will I plug it into. Threw out a rusty AT last week, scrounged a PC and a PC/XT from the same dumpster (after throwing them out). Too much stuff still. ?What benefit this board represents is too early to tell. I have stacks of 8" and 5 1/4" disks that seemingly no computer likes thus far. It would be nice to "keep the pieces" as one old cctalker put in his sig. About the time I joined up (better part of 9 years ago). This stuff does intrigue me though. I must say. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 15:13:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:13:45 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <26F021B0A01043B7AA09CBAA17D90FFF@tababook> References: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> <50916E9E.1020907@neurotica.com> <26F021B0A01043B7AA09CBAA17D90FFF@tababook> Message-ID: <50918679.3000801@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 03:08 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm thinking about buying the book as well. I was never much into the >> Apple ][ scene but I have a few machines here. I think it's time to dig >> into them. :-) > > Apple machines were interesting with a weak basic and a nice > assembler in ROM. Lots of productivity apps and nice games. I'd > reccommend you "wings of fury" in a //e with a Transwarp accelerator. > It is lots of fun Yes, good stuff. I've never been interested in games though...my explorations will be in other areas. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 15:16:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:16:13 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> Message-ID: <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like >> this. > > I can accept tips. #1: Confidence. #2: Confidence. #3: Confidence. > I can only find stupid (and gorgeous) girls around. Well "gorgeous" comes with the territory; I've theorized that the world's supply of beautiful women all comes from your country. I've met quite a few people from there (I had a lot of contact with many people from the South American region when I dated a Colombian girl for a few years) and they have ALL been breathtaking. Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your best bet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 15:16:40 2012 From: rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com (Chris Tofu) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <896873985-1351647492-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-535434495-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> <896873985-1351647492-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-535434495-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: <1351714600.11696.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: "barythrin at gmail.com" I'm guessing you're asking about the "option board" so since I didn't see it get mentioned the full name is central point (deluxe) option board. Central point was the manufacturer if you want to google around for more info. Others already mentioned the useful details though. Was for backing up floppies regardless of format. (Not necessarily dos/fat-12 disks). Also could copy some copy protected disks. Sorta useful these days when the software is no longer in production or any other format. C: I'm not so much interested in backing up copy protected disks (I have a few I guess) as in gaining access to otherwise hidden information. ???? Incidentally if you wanted to gain access to transitions in flux (density?), wouldn't it make the most sense to tap in near the read/write head? Just aft of the flux capacitior. Which is just forward of the flux thyristor. Just a hop, skip, and jump from the flux transducer...and so on. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 15:24:20 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: <20121031132358.D38726@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: > I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) > She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She > knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't > run very fast. *laughs*) Does she have a sister? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 15:39:45 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 16:39:45 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50918C91.5010007@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 02:27 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg > > Ah, yes. That, BTW, is an original Mendel knock-off, not a Prusa > knock-off (major difference is original has one Z motor and an > undercarraige belt system, the Prusa has two Z motors). Yes, that's > an older extruder design, but it should get you started to the point > of being able to print a better one (or you can purchase a newer > extruder if you want to sink money vs time into it). Heh. That was "the new extruder" when I bought the setup a little over a year ago. ;) > The original Mendel was designed to print with PLA, so no heated bed. > ABS (or full 8" PLA parts) will require a heated bed. MakerBot just > switched from ABS to PLA as their primary material. RepRappers have > been using both all along, depending on personal preference and costs > and especially bed design. I have a spool of ABS. I should get going on a heated bed. > If you can get some firmware on the main board and at least get it to > dance around without heat or a filament, you are most of the way > there. I'd recommend getting everything working up to the point of > installing the extruder on the X sled and deciding if you want to > spend time or spend money on the final steps. I'm already to that point. I have some slippage on one of the Z-axis gears, but otherwise all axes function under program control. > I cannot make specific firmware or application suggestions from > experience. You are further in your Mendel build than I am with mine. > I have much more experience with MakerBot products/tools. We do have > a monthly 3D printer meetup in Columbus, but it's 3.5 hrs from you and > runs from 19:00-22:00 - not a great time for such a long commute. We > get people dropping in from around the state, but 1.5 hrs is about the > max range. I drive that distance at the drop of a hat. ;) Maybe when it's "final tune-up" time I'll head out for that. > ObOnTopic: anyone draft up an STL file for DEC toggle switch paddles > yet? I'm willing to give a go at printing some but I'm not a skilled > CAD operator/designer. Oh that'd be nice! And those brackets that the blank rack covers snap onto, that the nipples are always breaking off of. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 15:55:12 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <1351714600.11696.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> <896873985-1351647492-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-535434495-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <1351714600.11696.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20121031135247.M38726@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Chris Tofu wrote: >?Incidentally if you wanted to gain access to transitions in flux > (density?), wouldn't it make the most sense to tap in near the > read/write head? Just aft of the flux capacitior. Which is just forward > of the flux thyristor. Just a hop, skip, and jump from the flux > transducer...and so on. The flux capacitators are not standardized. But the individual pulses of every flux transition are present and EASY to get to (with ecen standardized plugs!) just by intercepting the signal between the drive and the controller. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Oct 31 16:11:02 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 10:11:02 +1300 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I'm happily married for to my (second) spouse now for more than 20 years. She has her hobbies, I have mine, ad we have some interests in common. We respect each other's space and each other. This works. Terry Stewart (Tez) On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:04 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 11:32 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not > > simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." > > If you look deeper into that sort of statement, you'll find it's > deeply disrespectful. For me, that relationship would have ended on the > spot. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 16:23:52 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:23:52 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50918C91.5010007@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50918C91.5010007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Heh. That was "the new extruder" when I bought the setup a little > over a year ago. ;) Time marches on. I'm presently rebuilding a 2010 Thing-O-Matic, but I have to DIY here and there because it was only sold for a year and not many spare parts for it are still stocked. I'm not unhappy considering the heinous discount I got it at, so all the repair efforts are totally worth it, but it would just be easier to order replacements (or spares) than fabricate them. >> The original Mendel was designed to print with PLA, so no heated bed. > > I have a spool of ABS. I should get going on a heated bed. Yep. There's a 40W-50W heated PCB or some folks are using silicone flat heaters (powered by mains or 24VDC, depending on the design). > I'm already to that point. I have some slippage on one of the Z-axis > gears, but otherwise all axes function under program control. Good. Again, more progress than I've made yet, though I did just get some locktite last week so I can do a proper adjust and align and set for the side triangles. >> ... We do have >> a monthly 3D printer meetup in Columbus, but it's 3.5 hrs from you and >> runs from 19:00-22:00 - not a great time for such a long commute. We >> get people dropping in from around the state, but 1.5 hrs is about the >> max range. > > I drive that distance at the drop of a hat. ;) Maybe when it's "final > tune-up" time I'll head out for that. Second Wednesday of every month. Next one is 14 November. Ping me offline for directions, etc. >> ObOnTopic: anyone draft up an STL file for DEC toggle switch paddles >> yet? I'm willing to give a go at printing some but I'm not a skilled >> CAD operator/designer. > > Oh that'd be nice! And those brackets that the blank rack covers snap > onto, that the nipples are always breaking off of. I could use a bunch of those, too. FDM is not highly resistant to delamination, so either a support rod should be incorporated, or perhaps just make an injection mold and crank out a bunch of them out of ABS and do a large enough run that the mold costs are well amortized. If you really wanted to print them, I'd recommend printing the "nipples" by themselves, but with longer shanks, washing them with some homemade ABS "glue" (ABS scrap + acetone) to smooth the finish and fuse the layers, then glue them in the flat parts made with a hole for each "nipple". The flat bits could be printed or just laser cut from ABS sheet. You could bang out a bunch of the flat plates in minutes in a laser cutter, but printed ones could incorporate a tapered hole for the head of the 10-32 machine screw used for mounting. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 16:38:59 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible > significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like this. > \o/ :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 16:41:20 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:41:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ObOnTopic: anyone draft up an STL file for DEC toggle switch paddles > yet? I'm willing to give a go at printing some but I'm not a skilled > CAD operator/designer. I'd be happy to give it a shot if you can get me either a sample or mechanical drawings for one. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 16:50:52 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 14:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 09:16 AM, geneb wrote: >>>>> My setup (you've seen it, fairly old electronics now) is like six >>>>> PCBs...it should be one. And it uses a DC servo controller as a >>>>> stepper >>>>> controller chip. (but yes I understand why they did that...but it was a >>>>> poor design choice done to cover up for another poor design choice) >>>> >>>> :oO Photos, please? >>> >>> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg >>> >> Just looking at that gives me a headache. > > Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, > though. I think it's just the picture, but it looks like a mini black hole attracting a pile of mildly related parts. :) FYI, the #reprap channel on IRC is populated by a very knowledgeable, very nice bunch of folks. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 16:53:57 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:53:57 -0400 Subject: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <1351714600.11696.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1351461969.85623.BPMail_low_carrier@web121001.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20121028153934.R33501@shell.lmi.net> <896873985-1351647492-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-535434495-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> <1351714600.11696.YahooMailNeo@web121005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6F1984D9-0B33-4D28-B5BA-E4C539742402@gmail.com> On Oct 31, 2012, at 4:16 PM, Chris Tofu wrote: > Incidentally if you wanted to gain access to transitions in flux (density?), wouldn't it make the most sense to tap in near the read/write head? Just aft of the flux capacitior. Which is just forward of the flux thyristor. Just a hop, skip, and jump from the flux transducer...and so on. And once that baby hits 88 bits per second, you're gonna see some serious shit. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 17:00:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:00:49 -0400 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <50919F91.1020900@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 05:11 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I'm happily married for to my (second) spouse now for more than 20 years. > She has her hobbies, I have mine, ad we have some interests in common. We > respect each other's space and each other. > > This works. /me stands up and cheers -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 17:01:15 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >>> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like >>> this. >> >> I can accept tips. > Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong > places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go > hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of > those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your best bet. > ...and if you can't find a local Hackerspace, get your buddies together and START ONE! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 17:02:00 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <20121031132358.D38726@shell.lmi.net> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <20121031132358.D38726@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, geneb wrote: >> I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) >> She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She >> knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't >> run very fast. *laughs*) > > Does she have a sister? Yes. 58 I think. (years old, not number of sisters) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 17:06:10 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:06:10 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 05:50 PM, geneb wrote: >>>> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg >>>> >>> Just looking at that gives me a headache. >> >> Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, >> though. > > I think it's just the picture, but it looks like a mini black hole > attracting a pile of mildly related parts. :) It's just on a messy workbench. If you look closely, you'll see that the machine is fully assembled except for the end-stops and the extruder head. > FYI, the #reprap channel on IRC is populated by a very knowledgeable, > very nice bunch of folks. Cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 17:07:11 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:07:11 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <216F68E4BFAA4C2BB2216D13F0356C6A@tababook> >> I can accept tips. > #1: Confidence. > #2: Confidence. > #3: Confidence. Have lots, no interesting girl :o) > Well "gorgeous" comes with the territory; I've theorized that the > world's supply of beautiful women all comes from your country. I've met > quite a few people from there (I had a lot of contact with many people > from the South American region when I dated a Colombian girl for a few > years) and they have ALL been breathtaking. Hmmm, don't you know russians? ;o) > Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong > places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go > hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of > those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your best > bet. No girls in hackerspaces here. BTW, we have just one... From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 31 17:45:23 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 05:50 PM, geneb wrote: >>>>> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/reprap-incomplete.jpg >>>>> >>>> Just looking at that gives me a headache. >>> >>> Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, >>> though. >> >> I think it's just the picture, but it looks like a mini black hole >> attracting a pile of mildly related parts. :) > > It's just on a messy workbench. If you look closely, you'll see that the > machine is fully assembled except for the end-stops and the extruder head. > Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops and the workbench starts. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 17:59:41 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:59:41 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <23ABC5AD0B5C426E9EA072ACB2EA74CC@tababook> If it were so easy in Brazil... ;( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:01 PM Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >>>> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like >>>> this. >>> >>> I can accept tips. >> Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong >> places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go >> hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of >> those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your best >> bet. >> > ...and if you can't find a local Hackerspace, get your buddies together > and START ONE! :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 18:24:24 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:24:24 -0500 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > #1: Confidence. > #2: Confidence. > #3: Confidence. > See if you had purchased the book you could have written 1 ? "confidence":goto 1 run If I had purchased the book I'd also give ya an example in ML ;-) On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I can only find stupid (and gorgeous) girls around. > Now you'll just have to hope she can't use google and doesn't know how to search the cctalk archives. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 18:49:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:49:56 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <23ABC5AD0B5C426E9EA072ACB2EA74CC@tababook> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> <23ABC5AD0B5C426E9EA072ACB2EA74CC@tababook> Message-ID: <5091B924.4020701@neurotica.com> Why is it more difficult there than here? -Dave On 10/31/2012 06:59 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > If it were so easy in Brazil... ;( > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:01 PM > Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > > >> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >>>>> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like >>>>> this. >>>> >>>> I can accept tips. >>> Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong >>> places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go >>> hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of >>> those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your >>> best bet. >>> >> ...and if you can't find a local Hackerspace, get your buddies >> together and START ONE! :) >> >> g. >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 19:02:25 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, , , <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > there was a "copier" for the c64 called "cruel copier" once upon a time. > whatever you do, don't run it. it's not actually a copier.it's made up > to look like one, but it uses every trick in the book Is the book available? > to utterly destroy > your drive,even little things like disabling the track check and so > forth, telling the drive to seek to track 100,which the drive would > happily try to do. occasionally making the drive sound like a jet > engine,also code from "daisy" and hordes of other things I don't think > anyone has actually looked into. suffice it to say, it has been known to > wreck drives, even with a single run.that is, if you're stupid enough to > actually run the damn thing - I wasn't, but there were people who did. > it was put out by a fake company calling itself "magnetic manipulations > Inc",which I always thought was a cool name. too bad they didn't do much > productive releases,they're only decently useful utility was called SDS > (super disk speed) - a fast loader.or I suppose "soft sector format" was > another really cool one. there were tons of these little > groups/companies doing very cool things. Now that was more interesting. Do you have any more details about the techniques used? On most non-embedded "industry standard" drives, there is a SENSOR "track0 switch", to reduce the amount of cumulative damage from hitting the stop. Some drives had an innermost track stop, but many did not. But, did they do anything more interesting than seeking back and forth between tracks? > I wish I had gotten one of those "drive mirror" LED track/sector/density > displays.... What exactly was it? Was it like the track display that Everex put on their case? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 19:18:24 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:18:24 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 06:45 PM, geneb wrote: > Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops > and the workbench starts. :) Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at the request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, I may as well share them here as well. Test bench: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0796.JPG Rest of test bench (mostly RF gear): http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0797.JPG Soldering bench: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0798.JPG Close-up of soldering bench: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG Optical bench: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0801.JPG Electronic component stocks: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0802.JPG Calibration and reference standards, electronics chemicals: (hmm, and an thermal imaging camera, that's where that went!) http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0803.JPG -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 19:24:10 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:24:10 -0200 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> <23ABC5AD0B5C426E9EA072ACB2EA74CC@tababook> <5091B924.4020701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3244C8ABCAFE40F5ABAD33A92AEE4CCA@tababook> Everything in Brazil is level hard enhanced. Price of rent is high, tools for the hackerspace are expensive, people are poor...Unfortunately this isn't an easy task. --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 9:49 PM Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > > Why is it more difficult there than here? > > -Dave > > On 10/31/2012 06:59 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> If it were so easy in Brazil... ;( >> >> --- >> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:01 PM >> Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide >> >> >>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>>> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >>>>>> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit like >>>>>> this. >>>>> >>>>> I can accept tips. >>>> Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong >>>> places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go >>>> hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of >>>> those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your >>>> best bet. >>>> >>> ...and if you can't find a local Hackerspace, get your buddies >>> together and START ONE! :) >>> >>> g. >>> >>> -- >>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >>> >>> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >>> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >>> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 19:36:20 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:36:20 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> :oO I got dead. Too much envy :o( --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 10:18 PM Subject: Re: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition > On 10/31/2012 06:45 PM, geneb wrote: >> Ahh! That explains it. I'm unable to resolve where the machine stops >> and the workbench starts. :) > > Yeah, it's a bit, erm, "busy" over there. I took some lab pics at the > request of a friend yesterday...I sent them to the hecnet list, I may as > well share them here as well. > > Test bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0796.JPG > > Rest of test bench (mostly RF gear): > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0797.JPG > > Soldering bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0798.JPG > > Close-up of soldering bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG > > Optical bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0801.JPG > > Electronic component stocks: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0802.JPG > > Calibration and reference standards, electronics chemicals: > (hmm, and an thermal imaging camera, that's where that went!) > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0803.JPG > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 19:37:49 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:37:49 -0200 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Close-up of soldering bench: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG WOW, a Metcal... :oO From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 19:42:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:42:06 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <3244C8ABCAFE40F5ABAD33A92AEE4CCA@tababook> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <5091870D.6010904@neurotica.com> <23ABC5AD0B5C426E9EA072ACB2EA74CC@tababook> <5091B924.4020701@neurotica.com> <3244C8ABCAFE40F5ABAD33A92AEE4CCA@tababook> Message-ID: <5091C55E.9080003@neurotica.com> It's not exactly a picnic here either...a very small number of people here hold all of the money, and they play golf, not technology. The saving grace is that commercial space can be had for a song in the US these days. I'd say try it anyway. The women will flock to the person who organized the hackerspace. You'll have to beat them off with a stick! ;) -Dave On 10/31/2012 08:24 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Everything in Brazil is level hard enhanced. Price of rent is high, > tools for the hackerspace are expensive, people are poor...Unfortunately > this isn't an easy task. > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 9:49 PM > Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > > >> >> Why is it more difficult there than here? >> >> -Dave >> >> On 10/31/2012 06:59 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> If it were so easy in Brazil... ;( >>> >>> --- >>> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >>> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 8:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 10/31/2012 03:06 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>>>>>> If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible >>>>>>> significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit >>>>>>> like >>>>>>> this. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can accept tips. >>>>> Stupid, though, is a problem. I'd say you're looking in the wrong >>>>> places. I'm not sure how to address that in your area. Here, I'd go >>>>> hang out at a Hackerspace or something...not sure if there are many of >>>>> those where you are, but if you can find one, that's probably your >>>>> best bet. >>>>> >>>> ...and if you can't find a local Hackerspace, get your buddies >>>> together and START ONE! :) >>>> >>>> g. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >>>> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >>>> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >>>> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >>>> >>>> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >>>> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >>>> http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! >>> >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA > -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 31 19:47:17 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:47:17 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: At 1:51 PM -0200 10/31/12, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "geneb" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:33 PM >Subject: Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > >>On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >>>>If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to >>>>go pound sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates >>>>that think that just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO >>>>_must_ not like it either. >>> >>> Now you can see why I'm single :o) >> >>I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) >>She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" >>bullshit. She knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) >>(now granted, I didn't run very fast. *laughs*) >> >>Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation >>for our own protection. :) > You're a point outside the curve :o) I'm inclined to think he's not. I'm in basically the same position, though we won't hit 13 years until next summer. I made sure my wife had seen my *ENTIRE* classic computer collection *BEFORE* I asked her to marry me. I tend to think my Classic computer collection bothers me more than it bothers my wife. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 31 19:49:39 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:49:39 -0700 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> References: <124E74BC-447B-4CB3-866A-1B7E6A891FF2@xlisper.com> Message-ID: At 2:24 PM -0400 10/31/12, David Betz wrote: >On Oct 29, 2012, at 5:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Does anyone have this? >> http://www.amazon.com/New-Apple-II-Users-Guide/dp/0615639879 >> >> It came out in June of 2012, and is 796 pages. I find myself >> intrigued! I fear I'm sinking into another 8-bit period. :-) > >Wow! This looks like it will be a very interesting book. I guess now >that I've ordered it from amazon.com I ought to think about actually >acquiring an Apple II machine! :-) Mine will be here tomorrow, I guess I should see about digging out an Apple II tonight! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | | My Photography Website | | http://www.zanesphotography.com | From jimpdavis at gorge.net Wed Oct 31 19:50:07 2012 From: jimpdavis at gorge.net (jim davis) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:50:07 -0700 Subject: GPIB/HPIB disk and device enulation for PC In-Reply-To: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I figured I would ask here before I spend hours chasing dead links in google. Is there a hpib/gpib device server emulator that works with linux or win XP? I would like to get my HP 9000/340 to boot from a emulated drive. If such a thing doesn't exist, I might try rolling my own from stuff I have here. -- jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 19:54:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:54:31 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 08:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Close-up of soldering bench: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/LabPics/DSC_0799.JPG > > WOW, a Metcal... :oO Yup, SP-200. - life is too short to use crappy tools - crappy tools are a false economy -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 19:55:20 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:55:20 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> Message-ID: <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 08:36 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > :oO > > I got dead. Too much envy :o( Oh and that isn't even the stuff YOU'LL like. ;) I'll have to take some more pics. [cue 70s porn music] -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 31 19:56:59 2012 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:56:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 03:36 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is respectable, >>> though. >> >> THIS can solve all your problems in a simple way, and you can do this >> board at home. >> http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/2012/08/placa-gen7br2.html >> >> This is the board all of us use here, and works flawlessly. > > That looks like a nice setup. All those through-hole components, > though, make me shudder almost as much as the original electronics! ;) I dunno...it doesn't look all that bad, and through-hole makes assembly easier for most people. ;P The main thing I would have done differently with the board design/routing would be to avoid turning resistors and jumper wires at odd angles and widen the lead spacing for the resistors where it is -really- small. Some of those resistors' leads are just bent way too close to the resistor bodies which can cause stress cracking inside the resistor when forming the leads. I'm sure there'd be other things I'd tinker with if I were editing the board design, but those two things jumped right out at me when I first glanced at the photo. The Phoenix Contact plugs for the motors are a really nice touch though. Those are way better than having to disconnect 4 screw terminals each just to disconnect a motor. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Oct 31 20:04:03 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 01:04:03 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/31/12 2:11 PM, "Terry Stewart" wrote: >I'm happily married for to my (second) spouse now for more than 20 years. > She has her hobbies, I have mine, ad we have some interests in common. >We >respect each other's space and each other. > >This works. > >Terry Stewart (Tez) > >On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:04 AM, Dave McGuire >wrote: > >> On 10/31/2012 11:32 AM, John Many Jars wrote: >> > I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not >> > simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." >> >> If you look deeper into that sort of statement, you'll find it's >> deeply disrespectful. For me, that relationship would have ended on the >> spot. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> > > Twenty-two years and counting. She looks at me funny and sometimes asks pointed questions (e.g., "Are you ever going to *use* that?"), but I often do the same thing to her when she comes home from a tournament shopping episode.... -- Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Oct 31 20:24:06 2012 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:24:06 -0400 Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> References: <1351393979.95394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , <20121028130152.X33501@shell.lmi.net> <508DAEE7.6000200@jwsss.com>, ,,, <20121028155540.J33501@shell.lmi.net>, ,,,,, <20121028191526.P33501@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121029104423.Q72137@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <20121029164713.Y77689@shell.lmi.net>, , <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: drive mirror was a LCD display with the track and sector also had LEDs for half-track and density. from my research, the ads were in transactor and such, but apparently none ever made it to market,which is too bad, because it's a very cool little thing for the 1541 > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 17:02:25 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? > > On Tue, 30 Oct 2012, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > there was a "copier" for the c64 called "cruel copier" once upon a time. > > whatever you do, don't run it. it's not actually a copier.it's made up > > to look like one, but it uses every trick in the book > > Is the book available? > > > to utterly destroy > > your drive,even little things like disabling the track check and so > > forth, telling the drive to seek to track 100,which the drive would > > happily try to do. occasionally making the drive sound like a jet > > engine,also code from "daisy" and hordes of other things I don't think > > anyone has actually looked into. suffice it to say, it has been known to > > wreck drives, even with a single run.that is, if you're stupid enough to > > actually run the damn thing - I wasn't, but there were people who did. > > it was put out by a fake company calling itself "magnetic manipulations > > Inc",which I always thought was a cool name. too bad they didn't do much > > productive releases,they're only decently useful utility was called SDS > > (super disk speed) - a fast loader.or I suppose "soft sector format" was > > another really cool one. there were tons of these little > > groups/companies doing very cool things. > > Now that was more interesting. Do you have any more details about the > techniques used? > > On most non-embedded "industry standard" drives, there is a SENSOR "track0 > switch", to reduce the amount of cumulative damage from hitting the stop. > Some drives had an innermost track stop, but many did not. > > But, did they do anything more interesting than seeking back and forth > between tracks? > > > I wish I had gotten one of those "drive mirror" LED track/sector/density > > displays.... > What exactly was it? > Was it like the track display that Everex put on their case? > > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Oct 31 20:41:04 2012 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:41:04 -0700 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <50919F91.1020900@neurotica.com> References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> <50919F91.1020900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On 10/31/2012 05:11 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I'm happily married for to my (second) spouse now for more than 20 years. > She has her hobbies, I have mine, ad we have some interests in > common. We respect each other's space and each other. > > This works. I've been married to my (only) wife for 25 years. We've been together for 34 years. We have many shared "loves" -- dogs, the outdoors, musclecars, and too many other things to count. I have had my calculator collection since the mid-1980's...she always put up with it, even when machines invaded our first home together, and other homes until we were able to put up a separate building to house it all. She doesn't really understand my fascination, but that doesn't matter -- she knows that my time spent with this stuff is happy time for me, and she's all about that. She does a lot of competitions with our dogs...where she travels all around the country competing. I miss her and the dogs when they are gone, but it's just not my thing to sit around in a livestock arena and watch dogs run through obstacle courses for days on end. But -- it makes her happy, so I'm all for it. She respects that I have my calculators (and some old computers too), and I respect that she does her dog competition, and it never has caused any conflict. We do our own things when we can, and we have our shared things that we do together. Like Terry wrote -- it just works. It's all about give and take. Without that ... any relationship is destined for rough seas. Kudos to you, Terry! Congratulations on over 20 years of happy marriage. Rick Bensene From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 20:41:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:41:38 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <98A725A3882F4CAE98C422FF4C474465@tababook> <5091860E.7090407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091D352.30803@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 08:56 PM, Tothwolf wrote: >>>> Yep. The electronics are frightening. The rest of it is >>>> respectable, though. >>> >>> THIS can solve all your problems in a simple way, and you can do this >>> board at home. >>> http://reprapbr-ge.blogspot.com.br/2012/08/placa-gen7br2.html >>> >>> This is the board all of us use here, and works flawlessly. >> >> That looks like a nice setup. All those through-hole components, >> though, make me shudder almost as much as the original electronics! ;) > > I dunno...it doesn't look all that bad, and through-hole makes assembly > easier for most people. ;P Yuck. > The main thing I would have done differently with the board > design/routing would be to avoid turning resistors and jumper wires at > odd angles and widen the lead spacing for the resistors where it is > -really- small. Some of those resistors' leads are just bent way too > close to the resistor bodies which can cause stress cracking inside the > resistor when forming the leads. I'm sure there'd be other things I'd > tinker with if I were editing the board design, but those two things > jumped right out at me when I first glanced at the photo. The whole electronics package is just a mess. > The Phoenix Contact plugs for the motors are a really nice touch though. > Those are way better than having to disconnect 4 screw terminals each > just to disconnect a motor. I like those a lot. I use them a lot at work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 20:56:29 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:56:29 -0700 Subject: GPIB/HPIB disk and device enulation for PC In-Reply-To: References: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2012 6:09 PM, "jim davis" wrote: > > I figured I would ask here before I spend hours chasing dead links in > google. > Is there a hpib/gpib device server emulator that works with linux or win XP? > I would like to get my HP 9000/340 to boot from a emulated drive. > If such a thing doesn't exist, I might try rolling my own from stuff I have > here. > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ I have used this software on a Windows XP system with a National Instruments GPIB board to emulate drives attached to HP-85 series systems. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 31 21:05:41 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Copy Protection (Was: anyone with an early Option Board? In-Reply-To: from Dan Gahlinger at "Oct 31, 12 09:24:06 pm" Message-ID: <201211010205.qA125flx29950198@floodgap.com> > drive mirror was a LCD display with the track and sector also had LEDs for > half-track and density. > from my research, the ads were in transactor and such, but apparently none > ever made it to market,which is too bad, because it's a very cool little > thing for the 1541 The Indus GT drive has such a display. Not as handy as you'd think because the types of software it was most useful for weren't necessarily compatible with the Indus GT. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is a tremendous Mitzvah to be happy always! -- Reb. Nachman ------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 21:05:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:05:52 -0400 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <5091C847.8040108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Oct 31, 2012, at 8:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 10/31/2012 08:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> WOW, a Metcal... :oO > > Yup, SP-200. > > - life is too short to use crappy tools > - crappy tools are a false economy I agree, in general. I've been quite happy with my Hakko (recommended by Gene, bought for my birthday by my wife), but I will probably always lust in my heart for a proper Metcal. They're not even all that expensive, especially when used, but right now we have $1200 doors to replace before the *next* hurricane comes through, and at least now I'm in the land of temp-controlled irons. - Dave From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:12:04 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:12:04 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <201210290127.VAA25024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> <201210290127.VAA25024@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20121101021204.GA29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 09:27:58PM -0400, Mouse wrote: > > And the image isn't enough pixels. > > Indeed. > > Somewhere, I have a goregous B&W print of a picture someone else took, > showing me getting onto a city bus in the middle of winter. (The > reason this is an interesting picture is irrelevant here.) > > I don't recall the exact size; in my memory it's something close to > 6"x8". Lovely fine detail, obviously done by someone who knows how to > take high-depth-of-field shots and process them right. But I have > trouble imagining getting a print that good out of digital with > anything less than at least 500dpi resolution, probably better. > Digital cameras with 3000x4000 pixel resolution might exist, but they > probably are even rarer than whatever the guy who took the shot used, You're kidding, right? The Nikon D300s I use does 4288x2848 and it is an older model DSLR (released in 2009). Nikons D800 (released 2012) does 7630x4912 pixels and is reported to have extremely low noise even at very high (3200+) ISO speeds. And if you happen to have a a really big pile of money burning a hole in your pocket, there is always medium format: Hasselblads H4D-60 does 60 MPixels (6708x8956 pixels) for around 30K USD. Just the body, of course, lenses are extra. Although that is firmly in "if you have to ask about the price, you can't afford it" territory. These days, commonly available digital cameras have outpaced commonly available film by quite a wide margin. I scanned some old 35 mm film of mine (shot with an SLR 10+ years or so ago) a while ago and was appalled at the grain and noise - I'd never buy a DSLR with such bad image quality ;-) Mind, commonly available: compacts and (D)SLRs. Medium format and up plays in a completely different group anyway, both film and digital. > and surely far more expensive. Well, current model DSLRs tend not be that cheap, true - I dropped around 3.5k USD for my current kit (D300s, two lenses, extended warranty, camera bag) more than two years ago. But is was money well spent for me. On the low end of the price scale, the Canon PowerShot A810 does 4608x2592 for around a hundred bucks. Yes, cheap compact, tiny sensor and probably noisy as heck outside of bright light. You can also find 20 MPixel compacts in the 200..300 USD price range. But compacts tend to suffer from having tiny sensors -> which means low sensitivity -> lots of noise if you crank the ISO speed up a bit. > And good luck finding a way to print > the result in that kind of detail; it's the rare printer that can print > greyscale without diterhing, and if that print is dithered it's got to > be in at least the low thousands of DPI for the print engine, and by IIRC there where printing systems doing 2540 dpi ten years ago. Yes, big commercial jobs, not cheap throw-away inkjets, but they existed. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 21:20:03 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 02:20:03 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <763915815-1351736408-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1289619740-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> I think that may just be a cut down on your cable management j/k. Pretty sure the ladies like that and she'd be happy for you to increase that budget. -----Original Message----- From: John Many Jars Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 15:32:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide On 31 October 2012 15:15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound >> sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that >> just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. > > I knew there was a reason I was still single. I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all the facts are in. " General "Buck" Turgidson From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Oct 31 21:21:14 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 22:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GPIB/HPIB disk and device enulation for PC In-Reply-To: References: <20121031165717.T53387@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, Glen Slick wrote: > On Oct 31, 2012 6:09 PM, "jim davis" wrote: >> >> Is there a hpib/gpib device server emulator that works with linux or win > XP? >> I would like to get my HP 9000/340 to boot from a emulated drive. >> If such a thing doesn't exist, I might try rolling my own from stuff I > have >> here. >> > > http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ > > I have used this software on a Windows XP system with a National > Instruments GPIB board to emulate drives attached to HP-85 series systems. I've also used HPDrive under WinXP to boot RTE-6/VM on a HP 21MX (2109E). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 21:22:09 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 02:22:09 +0000 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> <50916831.3010809@neurotica.com> <50919F91.1020900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200720884-1351736532-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1759516349-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> In Texas they cleverly tried to solve your issue. At the belton hamexpo I recall there being a dog obstacle course competition in the way back area. -----Original Message----- From: "Rick Bensene" Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 18:41:04 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide > On 10/31/2012 05:11 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I'm happily married for to my (second) spouse now for more than 20 years. > She has her hobbies, I have mine, ad we have some interests in > common. We respect each other's space and each other. > > This works. I've been married to my (only) wife for 25 years. We've been together for 34 years. We have many shared "loves" -- dogs, the outdoors, musclecars, and too many other things to count. I have had my calculator collection since the mid-1980's...she always put up with it, even when machines invaded our first home together, and other homes until we were able to put up a separate building to house it all. She doesn't really understand my fascination, but that doesn't matter -- she knows that my time spent with this stuff is happy time for me, and she's all about that. She does a lot of competitions with our dogs...where she travels all around the country competing. I miss her and the dogs when they are gone, but it's just not my thing to sit around in a livestock arena and watch dogs run through obstacle courses for days on end. But -- it makes her happy, so I'm all for it. She respects that I have my calculators (and some old computers too), and I respect that she does her dog competition, and it never has caused any conflict. We do our own things when we can, and we have our shared things that we do together. Like Terry wrote -- it just works. It's all about give and take. Without that ... any relationship is destined for rough seas. Kudos to you, Terry! Congratulations on over 20 years of happy marriage. Rick Bensene From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 21:30:05 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:30:05 -0600 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <20121031132358.D38726@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5091DEAD.609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/31/2012 4:02 PM, geneb wrote: >> Does she have a sister? > > Yes. 58 I think. (years old, not number of sisters) It should be "Does she have a sister and is she single? Ben From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:21:29 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:21:29 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20121101022129.GC29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 09:45:27PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > THe eye of the photographer is much more important than the cmaera.... True words. A good photographer can shoot good pictures with a crappy camera. Everybody can shoot crappy pictures with a good camera. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:17:58 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:17:58 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <508DC9E8.4040100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20121028172309.S33501@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20121101021758.GB29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Oct 28, 2012 at 06:32:02PM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > While I still have film cameras around I find it hard to find any film > locally anymore. Some types of film are no longer manufactured. Kodak stopped making Kodachrome, Ektachrome and Elite Chrome Extra Color sometime this year. > I even had trouble finding something as simple as a > Compact Flash card around here because everyone now has a camera phone, and I've had a camera phone for years and while they are _great_ for taking simple snapshots as a memory aid (e.g. take a foto of that poster advertising that event instead of writing it all down), those cameras still suck. Tiny sensors. If I actually want to do some photographing, I grab my Nikon D300s ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 21:33:10 2012 From: barythrin at gmail.com (barythrin at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 02:33:10 +0000 Subject: networking classic hardware Message-ID: <481622946-1351737192-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2092733446-@b2.c21.bise6.blackberry> The other trick xircom (pe3 at least) has is powering it either by a power adapter or from a passthrough keyboard plug. I've heard good things about them but I do believe they need a bidirectional parallel port. I never find a bargain on them so haven't played with one yet but you can find them hovering around the $15 mark on a good day. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 21:37:52 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:37:52 -0600 Subject: RepRapping. Was:Re: Restoring an Intel SDK-86 to "mostly like new" condition In-Reply-To: <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> References: <8CF82143F0A1B94-15B4-40ED5@webmail-m037.sysops.aol.com> <20121028131537.GA79182@beast.freibergnet.de> <605337F9338F46A8936D2396EDFE4E82@tababook> <508DE528.3010609@neurotica.com> <508ECB45.20207@neurotica.com> <508EE1B5.5050406@neurotica.com> <508F1A7D.1000200@neurotica.com> <3CCB7DBE0FAE45C29518E3ED68F97C6F@tababook> <50908EEF.1040100@neurotica.com> <50917517.9040405@neurotica.com> <5091A0D2.2080605@neurotica.com> <5091BFD0.6020706@neurotica.com> <6C8A860D79C6477ABFCFF2AA00F8FCDA@tababook> <5091C878.9010709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5091E080.7090002@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/31/2012 6:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > [cue 70s porn music] Can't. Don't have my Dynaco any more, or a stripper 45. > -Dave Ben. PS. Now is good time to build DIY amps; tubes can be had with Good Transformers to be found in Europe, and the price of "holy grail" speakers can be bought on ebay, with only two thirds of your soul. Also a good time to stock up older spares while you can get them. From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:27:29 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:27:29 +0100 Subject: film cameras was Re: Blue screen of Basic In-Reply-To: <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> References: <1351468518.15394.BPMail_low_carrier@web121004.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <50B5BDC5-9350-4BBB-A91E-99041B38092C@gmail.com> <20121029160436.GA20815@night.db.net> <02B9CD7B-43E1-4CEE-9E23-4E44CF83913C@me.com> Message-ID: <20121101022729.GD29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 07:21:08PM -0400, Paul Anderson wrote: > Wait... That Ken Rockwell article says *nothing* about film grain. I even > searched it for the word grain. How on earth can you write an article about > the relative resolution of film without a word regarding grain?! You just saw him do it. It is Ken Rockwell after all ... so anything he writes needs to be taken with at least a large shovel of salt. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:44:43 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:44:43 +0100 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> References: <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> Message-ID: <20121101024443.GE29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 05:06:57PM -0200, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > If he is, then I'm another one. It IS possible to find compatible > >significant others. There is no need to suffer through bullshit > >like this. > > I can accept tips. Be yourself and confidence. If you have to pretend to be something you aren't to "catch" a girl, it won't work out anyway in the long run. And I don't think you're the type to look for a "trophy wife" ;-) > I can only find stupid (and gorgeous) girls around. Well, as they say: "Beauty fades, but stupid is forever." While having your wife look gorgeous doesn't hurt, IMHO it should never be the main thing that attracts you to her. And beauty is overrated (says the bloke who oh so very much likes the view when looking at his wife) anyway, other things are - IMHO - way more important: a similiar sense of humour, being able to just disappear into a (intelligent) conversation with your partner and hours later wonder where the time went, enjoying similiar things, ... Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 21:50:23 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:50:23 -0600 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/28/2012 4:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I did some number crunching and decided that I can indeed produce P112 > kits with all the parts you'll need. See http://661.org/p112 or > http://p112.feedle.net > So what can you use for a power supply? I need a compete bundle. Partial kits tend to nickel and dime me. 39 cent part. $49.50 fedex does not work. Ben. What I am also looking for is single board computer than I get a prom burned that will let me emulate computer in the 12 to 24 bit range, and still have reasonable fake I/O. From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:55:07 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:55:07 +0100 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <0853F5CC-A7EE-46BC-83CC-43A149E79B74@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20121101025507.GG29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 12:35:38PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 31, 2012, at 11:44 AM, John Many Jars wrote: > > On 31 October 2012 15:31, geneb wrote: > >> Yeah, that would've been it for me. I woudln't tolerate that kind of > >> behavior. It's just unacceptable. Might I suggest a Wife 2.0 update and a > >> move back to Merricastan? :) > > > > This is Wife 2.0 > > > > I'm not going for any more "upgrades". > > Perhaps it's time to try "software as a service". *cough* An entry from the quotes files: "If it flies, floats or fucks it is cheaper to rent than to own." -- unknown But not everyone is a cheapskate ... SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:52:24 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:52:24 +0100 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <96A77191-B593-40FB-B211-21C5A6C9B809@rachors.com> <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> Message-ID: <20121101025224.GF29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 03:57:42PM +0000, John Many Jars wrote: > On 31 October 2012 15:33, geneb wrote: > > > I've been married for 13 years to the most awesome chick on the planet. :) > > She's never tried any of that "Oh he'll (or I can) change" bullshit. She > > knew what she was getting when she caught me. :) (now granted, I didn't run > > very fast. *laughs*) > > > > Women who think men need to be "Fixed" should be put into isolation for our > > own protection. :) > > Female thinking: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzb0LPM0CDU&playnext=1&list=PL680EF61DDD9A2E77&feature=results_main > > (if I can't be sexist here....) That is the kind of thinking that keeps divorce lawyers employed and busy. And as to sexist: I'm pretty sure this particular silly idea resides with both sexes. *sigh* Seriously, if you don't like him/her the way he/she is, _don't_ marry. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 31 21:56:48 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2012 03:56:48 +0100 Subject: sex, lies and computer collecting was Re: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: References: <201210311515.q9VFF9S529229300@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20121101025648.GH29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 08:56:46AM -0700, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, John Many Jars wrote: > > >On 31 October 2012 15:15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>>If it was ME, I'd bring the stuff out to enjoy it and tell her to go pound > >>>sand if she didn't like it. I cannot understand mates that think that > >>>just because THEY don't like a hobby, their SO _must_ not like it either. > >> > >>I knew there was a reason I was still single. > > > >I find women fear wires. Both spouses (one at a time not > >simultaneously) : "You're gonna burn the house down..." > > "If I wanted your opinion on my wiring ability, I'd tell you what it was." If you listen really well, with both statements you can hear a divorce lawyer quietly counting money in the background ... HTH, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 31 22:17:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:17:53 -0400 Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <20121101024443.GE29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <20121101024443.GE29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <5091E9E1.1060005@neurotica.com> On 10/31/2012 10:44 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, as they say: "Beauty fades, but stupid is forever." While having > your wife look gorgeous doesn't hurt, IMHO it should never be the main > thing that attracts you to her. And beauty is overrated (says the bloke > who oh so very much likes the view when looking at his wife) PICS! > anyway, > other things are - IMHO - way more important: a similiar sense of humour, > being able to just disappear into a (intelligent) conversation with your > partner and hours later wonder where the time went, enjoying similiar > things, ... Well said. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 31 22:36:14 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 20:36:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2012, ben wrote: > On 10/28/2012 4:47 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I did some number crunching and decided that I can indeed produce P112 >> kits with all the parts you'll need. See http://661.org/p112 or >> http://p112.feedle.net >> > So what can you use for a power supply? > I need a compete bundle. Partial kits tend to nickel and dime > me. 39 cent part. $49.50 fedex does not work. > Ben. > What I am also looking for is single board computer > than I get a prom burned that will let me emulate computer > in the 12 to 24 bit range, and still have reasonable fake I/O. The P112 draws about 150 milliamps not including the floppy drives. If you do what many others have and use an old external hard drive chassis, you can use that power supply. I'm not sure what you mean by "emulate computer in the 12 to 24 bit range, and still have reasonably fake I/O". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Oct 31 22:50:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 23:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The New Apple II User's Guide In-Reply-To: <20121101024443.GE29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <42ECFF1602AF43D287B503A41A157E54@tababook> <5091685F.5050800@neurotica.com> <94F288794CEC478CABBA0C22F70A3E9F@tababook> <20121101024443.GE29850@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <201211010350.XAA19197@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I can accept tips. > Be yourself and confidence. If you have to pretend to be something > you aren't to "catch" a girl, it won't work out anyway in the long > run. Something you aren't? You mean, like, "confident"? :-/ > And I don't think you're the type to look for a "trophy wife" ;-) If he were, he wouldn't be complaining about... >> I can only find stupid (and gorgeous) girls around. ...would he? > other things are - IMHO - way more important: a similiar sense of > humour, being able to just disappear into a (intelligent) > conversation with your partner and hours later wonder where the time > went, enjoying similiar things, ... Very true, I think. Two of the reasons I am particularly hopeful about the woman I'm currently feeling sweet on are that we _do_ disappear into conversations and wonder where the hours went and that she shares at least some of my love for recreational mathematics, something I've found far too seldom in _anyone_. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 22:59:11 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2012 21:59:11 -0600 Subject: P112 kits now with parts In-Reply-To: References: <5091E36F.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5091F38F.6080809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 10/31/2012 9:36 PM, David Griffith wrote: > The P112 draws about 150 milliamps not including the floppy drives. If > you do what many others have and use an old external hard drive chassis, > you can use that power supply. If I had that, I would not be asking what to use. I am thinking of that getting that kit, but have no spare parts kicking around the house as most kit salesman have you to believe. If I have to buy parts here and there, I would be better off with a Coco III and Nitro/9. > I'm not sure what you mean by "emulate computer in the 12 to 24 bit > range, and still have reasonably fake I/O". > I want to run some classic computer emulators, but as a standalone product rather having to power on a full sized PC. Notebooks and laptops still count as a PC. As far as I know, nobody is selling FPGA clones of any of the older products. Ben.